Holy gak yes, I have a few starters from Warmachine and I hate the material they used. Sure, it's not metal, wahey! But yeah, those mold lines and the spots where the vents were / are, fething hell, good luck getting those away nicely!
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The sheer amount of trash that gets talked in this thread and THAT is the comment that's over the line?
The mind, she boggles.
It was a leap from "Are there any really well detailed HIPS kits?" to "OMG Kingdom Death Sux!!!".
It was unnecessary, and more than a little puerile itself...
Also, if that boggles your mind, I can't believe you can handle the internet at all.
BrookM wrote:Some cows are more sacred than others I suppose.
I assume you are referring to me. I don't have any of those. If something is bad, by all means skewer it.
The comment I responded to was out of line, and off-topic. It just irritated me, that's all.
On that particular topic: KD and Wyrd plastics look great, detail-wise. But they still don't achieve the same level of detail as metal or resin. Getting ever closer, true. But not quite there.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The sheer amount of trash that gets talked in this thread and THAT is the comment that's over the line?
The mind, she boggles.
It was a leap from "Are there any really well detailed HIPS kits?" to "OMG Kingdom Death Sux!!!".
It was unnecessary, and more than a little puerile itself...
Also, if that boggles your mind, I can't believe you can handle the internet at all.
BrookM wrote:Some cows are more sacred than others I suppose.
I assume you are referring to me. I don't have any of those. If something is bad, by all means skewer it.
The comment I responded to was out of line, and off-topic. It just irritated me, that's all.
On that particular topic: KD and Wyrd plastics look great, detail-wise. But they still don't achieve the same level of detail as metal or resin. Getting ever closer, true. But not quite there.
~Eric
It's a joke. The amount of smack-talk in this thread has been relentless from the get-go. Relentless. Just scan back over the last few pages. I shudder to think how much of this thread is repeated 'delicious' gifs, humorously offensive french comments, and 80% jokes. (Probably...80%?)
I'm sorry if I offended you, taarnak. I've been told that I lack sensitivity before. Probably because I'm french.
BrookM wrote:Some cows are more sacred than others I suppose.
I assume you are referring to me. I don't have any of those. If something is bad, by all means skewer it.
The comment I responded to was out of line, and off-topic. It just irritated me, that's all.
On that particular topic: KD and Wyrd plastics look great, detail-wise. But they still don't achieve the same level of detail as metal or resin. Getting ever closer, true. But not quite there.
~Eric
Nah, it wasn't meant to be aimed solely at you, I'm pretty guilty of certain things myself. *points to custom title*
I personally carry KD:M on my shoulders, because Adam does the right thing and then some. These guys however, they still need to earn that right in my opinion, because of reasons, but that's just me, die-hard unforgiving I suppose.
I'm sorry if I offended you, taarnak. I've been told that I lack sensitivity before. Probably because I'm french.
Not offended. Irritated.
I'm pretty hard to offend, but I have days when I am very easy to irritate...
Seriously no worries about offending me. You didn't.
I have seen lots and lots of (sometimes strenuous) criticism on this thread, but very little in the way of cheap shots, really. Is the thread somewhat negative in tone? Yup. Does RH have anyone to thank for that other than themselves? Nope.
Regarding the material, Alex. I think that if someone is going to do restic well, it'll be Raging Heroes. They should at least be aware that if they put out stuff comparable to Deadzone's orx, there will be hell to pay.
Yeah, you heard me right, I said something positive. Now get over it.
I personally carry KD:M on my shoulders, because Adam does the right thing and then some.
On a non-humorous aside: can you define 'the right thing' in this case? Not needling, genuinely curious.
I think it won't matter what I say, because you've already made up your mind about KD:M.
Honestly, if I had already made up my mind I wouldn't have asked. I've advised before on Dakka that there is never a point in an arguing with someone you aren't willing to give the chance to change your mind. I certainly have formed an opinion since first I was introduced to their stuff, but there are definitely users here on Dakka who's opinions and attitudes I respect enough to at least hear out. You and Alpharius are certainly in that boat. I may not always agree with what you guys think, but you're usually coming from a rational and understandable place.
The reason I asked you in specific is that you self-identified as a diehard supporter of KD, so I thought you'd have some very good reasons. I'd like to have less negativity in my life, so I'd be thrilled to have my mind changed on this topic.
I personally carry KD:M on my shoulders, because Adam does the right thing and then some.
On a non-humorous aside: can you define 'the right thing' in this case? Not needling, genuinely curious.
I think it won't matter what I say, because you've already made up your mind about KD:M.
Honestly, if I had already made up my mind I wouldn't have asked. I've advised before on Dakka that there is never a point in an arguing with someone you aren't willing to give the chance to change your mind. I certainly have formed an opinion since first I was introduced to their stuff, but there are definitely users here on Dakka who's opinions and attitudes I respect enough to at least hear out. You and Alpharius are certainly in that boat. I may not always agree with what you guys think, but you're usually coming from a rational and understandable place.
The reason I asked you in specific is that you self-identified as a diehard supporter of KD, so I thought you'd have some very good reasons. I'd like to have less negativity in my life, so I'd be thrilled to have my mind changed on this topic.
Jim, I'm going to ask you something, and I want you to understand that I'm not making fun or trying to insult you: do you have some form of learning or cognitive disability?
I don't think you're trolling, it's just rather disconcerting to see such a similar conversation repeated with the same participants in the same thread just about 90 days after the first one. If I'm reading too much into this and you just forgot, then there you go, click on the links above for a re-run of the conversation.
In any case, it's interesting for anyone to go back and look at the state of comparison between KD:M (and other "good communication" campaigns) and RH. The state of them really... seems to be pretty much unchanged, or at least that's how I would read things.
I personally carry KD:M on my shoulders, because Adam does the right thing and then some.
On a non-humorous aside: can you define 'the right thing' in this case? Not needling, genuinely curious.
I think it won't matter what I say, because you've already made up your mind about KD:M.
Honestly, if I had already made up my mind I wouldn't have asked. I've advised before on Dakka that there is never a point in an arguing with someone you aren't willing to give the chance to change your mind. I certainly have formed an opinion since first I was introduced to their stuff, but there are definitely users here on Dakka who's opinions and attitudes I respect enough to at least hear out. You and Alpharius are certainly in that boat. I may not always agree with what you guys think, but you're usually coming from a rational and understandable place.
The reason I asked you in specific is that you self-identified as a diehard supporter of KD, so I thought you'd have some very good reasons. I'd like to have less negativity in my life, so I'd be thrilled to have my mind changed on this topic.
Jim, I'm going to ask you something, and I want you to understand that I'm not making fun or trying to insult you: do you have some form of learning or cognitive disability?
I don't think you're trolling, it's just rather disconcerting to see such a similar conversation repeated with the same participants in the same thread just about 90 days after the first one. If I'm reading too much into this and you just forgot, then there you go, click on the links above for a re-run of the conversation.
In any case, it's interesting for anyone to go back and look at the state of comparison between KD:M (and other "good communication" campaigns) and RH. The state of them really... seems to be pretty much unchanged, or at least that's how I would read things.
Ha ha, no, no, fair enough. I can take my lumps. I appreciate your tact, but the only disability I have seems to be an inability to convey a humorous or nonserious tone in my posts.
And no, I do remember that conversation. (Not, like, word for word or anything. I'm not that cool.)
Perhaps I should have clarified. In our earlier conversation, the one you and I had, the takeaway I got was pretty much limited to communication between creator and end consumer, specifically in regards to Kickstarters. As well as the consensus that KD does a better job at this. And, unless I misunderstood the points that you were trying to make back then, that is, in your assessment, the main reason for the vast financial gulf between the two Kickstarters. My query in this case was more wondering about wider business differences. The support that Kingdom Death seems to have is, frankly, mind-boggling. I personally have found both their product and their business model to be...less than impressive. Since there seem to be a few people who have both shown great rationality as well as great KD-love, I wanted to know what it was that I was missing. (I'd have asked you, but from your comments I've had a hard time sussing out whether you actually LIKE Kingdom Death or just frequently hold them up as a successful business model.) I'm not so much curious about the business end of it this time around, but more the customer satisfaction. Maybe I'm just thick, but I haven't seen anything out of KD to inspire such heights of loyalty.
As far as slamming KD, I really don't see much difference between my comments and some of the more barbed comments people have been making about RH. I kind of thought we were all good with some mildly barbed ribbing, and thought the first time around it just got misconstrued. Have I been misusing laughy orks all these years on Dakka? Do they not mean 'this comment is intended with good humor?' In any event, lesson learned. No more joking about Kingdom Death.
Keeping things delicious is a sensitive task that takes a lot of love, care and observation! 80% of the time I'm not sure if I should do it, lest I turn this into a shamefully overdone thing.
Back too the subject at hand I was one of the RH heralds, which basically was me asking them questions and waiting for answers.
Since the KS ended its like they forgot about that. I even offered to set up a sub Reddit for them but no answer. I also added on about 80 dollars via PayPal last week. So it's still possible to pledge
The herald program was I think a major failing of the campaign and post-campaign. It's a great idea on paper, recruit individuals to basically do street team work and increase overall communication, but the communication was so lacking there really wasn't anything for us to do besides be another position in a game of telephone.
Well, they did answer questions on KS today. There will be a forum to discuss future projects, apparently. And at the cost of their 3D prints, 54mm versions of those minis would be outside of a lot of people's range to purchase. Although judging from the money spent on KS alone last year... I'm not so sure about that one. Afficionados abound.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Well, they did answer questions on KS today. There will be a forum to discuss future projects, apparently. And at the cost of their 3D prints, 54mm versions of those minis would be outside of a lot of people's range to purchase. Although judging from the money spent on KS alone last year... I'm not so sure about that one. Afficionados abound.
That big ass space marine Forge World sells is expensive as hell, isn't it? People sure seem to like buying that.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Well, they did answer questions on KS today. There will be a forum to discuss future projects, apparently. And at the cost of their 3D prints, 54mm versions of those minis would be outside of a lot of people's range to purchase. Although judging from the money spent on KS alone last year... I'm not so sure about that one. Afficionados abound.
Still they do seem to ignore emails or the many posts on FB on their own page. I do no not see them being more talkative on a forum they maintain/ own.
Don't get me wrong I love RH I just feel that they need to interact more.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Well, they did answer questions on KS today. There will be a forum to discuss future projects, apparently. And at the cost of their 3D prints, 54mm versions of those minis would be outside of a lot of people's range to purchase. Although judging from the money spent on KS alone last year... I'm not so sure about that one. Afficionados abound.
Still they do seem to ignore emails or the many posts on FB on their own page. I do no not see them being more talkative on a forum they maintain/ own.
Don't get me wrong I love RH I just feel that they need to interact more.
I actually chat with Mareille from the studio quite frequently on FB. The big thing that always comes up is how completely overwhelmed they are with the workload. The KS was really never supposed to blow up that big, and the little 3-person team that was running the studio at the time found themselves buried under the weight of correspondence that was pouring in every day. So basically, they're not all that talkative with a the bulk of the fans because they can't afford to take that much time away from the actual work of rendering all the models and dealing with the huge expansion of their business model that the KS success required of them. I imagine that a year from now they'll look back and say it was worth it, but right now they're getting their asses kicked.
They were promising 150 sculpts from day one. It was always supposed to be this big.
Yeah, this seems to be a case of "They made their beds, now they have to lie in them." The scope was always big, and the fact they added so many extra things near the end didn't really help much. This is one of the reasons why I'd rather see them develop one range per Kickstarter project. This would allow a bit of overlap between the creation, production, and distribution phases, and allow them to focus on one group of minis at a time. It also means people looking to get the full range in one wave can do so, as opposed to having three armies to choose from but potentially only 1/3 of the models are available at a wave release.
Kickstarter for Sci-Fi Sisters of Eternal Mercy
Kickstarter for Sci-Fi Dark Elves
Kickstarter for Fantasy Sisters of Eternal Mercy
Kickstarter for Fantasy Dark Elves
They need to be one or two steps ahead of each new KS - ie, ready to go to printing and test casting within a few months of KS ending, so they can then focus on the next project and their sculptors are freed up to continue on the next project. It's what they've had their concept artist doing since TGG ended, and now the only hold up is the 3D modeling due to the sheer numbers of models involved. Cut the number of sculpts down by a third, and this project would have had a good chance of shipping by now. They could have been getting ready for the next KS and launching it as soon as the shipping began for the first. Sure, fewer models per KS, less funds, but it allows people to get the minis they want quicker and not worry about the other stuff they're not interested in, and allows the new range of KS-funded models to go to retail sooner for those who didn't back the project.
It's the approach Tre Manor is recently taking with his projects, and what Mantic has been doing for some time now (at a much larger scale, though they still did wave shipping) Also, they've both had models ready to show during their KS's, which is nice.
RH would need to be working on 3D models right now for the next KS in order to keep the "dead time" to a minimum. I'm not sure they are going to do that though. I really don't think they have a second Kickstarter project in them for this year - but if they do, count on it being run in a similar manner. 4 armies this time, though, by my best guess based on their teasers throughout this campaign. And about the same amount of time to wait (I'd imagine by then they'd have a process worked out and sculpts could be completed quicker than TGG) for delivery.
Reposting the comment by RH from the KS comments in hopes one of the local Francophones can tell us if the secret of the sauce is hidden in the French...
Loud'n Raging wrote:Thank you all for your supportive words! They do go a long way to keep this project exciting for the team to work on. And as every gamer knows, a boost in morale usually leads to better results!
And here's some specific feedback:
@Lapin_Blanc: Dès qu'on a un moment, on va créer un forum Raging Heroes où ce sera pratique de commenter sur le futurs projets. En attendant, vous pouvez envoyer des mails, ou alors commenter directement sur notre blog, où les TGG Updates sont répercutés http://www.ragingheroes.com/blogs/news @Eorl: Thanks for sharing the link!
@kebab hunter: Bien vu! Effectivement, les rendus des Command Groups ont été effectués avec une version non-définitive des armures. Cela sera corrigé pour le Pledge Manager.
@Daniel B: That's a great idea and, to tell you the truth, it was one of our original goals when we launched Raging Heroes. However, the type of printer we use to get the super high level of detail you've become familiar with in Raging Heroes' minis is about 10 times more expensive then a regular 3D print, which would mean that 54mm 3D print would be way, way out of just about anybody's price range. And also, as much as we would like to make this on-demand service, at this point in time, it would be too much of a drag on the resources of our small team. But this is definitely something we are keeping in mind for the future, when 3D printing costs go down.
@Andy Goodchild @Michael "4ier" Telford:[sic]Punky does have an alternative weapon, where Punky aims a pistol in a sort of gansta / John Woo style, which totally fits her personality.
Google Translate seems to have done a good job on this one:
@ Lapin_Blanc: Once we have a moment, we will create a Raging Heroes forum where it will be convenient to comment on future plans. In the meantime, you can send email, or else directly comment on our blog, where TGG Updates are passed http://www.ragingheroes.com/blogs/news @ Eorl: Thanks for sharing the link!
@ kebab hunter: Well done! Indeed, the records (renders?) of the Command Groups were conducted with a non-final version of the armor. This will be corrected for the Pledge Manager.
I personally carry KD:M on my shoulders, because Adam does the right thing and then some.
On a non-humorous aside: can you define 'the right thing' in this case? Not needling, genuinely curious.
I think it won't matter what I say, because you've already made up your mind about KD:M.
Honestly, if I had already made up my mind I wouldn't have asked. I've advised before on Dakka that there is never a point in an arguing with someone you aren't willing to give the chance to change your mind. I certainly have formed an opinion since first I was introduced to their stuff, but there are definitely users here on Dakka who's opinions and attitudes I respect enough to at least hear out. You and Alpharius are certainly in that boat. I may not always agree with what you guys think, but you're usually coming from a rational and understandable place.
The reason I asked you in specific is that you self-identified as a diehard supporter of KD, so I thought you'd have some very good reasons. I'd like to have less negativity in my life, so I'd be thrilled to have my mind changed on this topic.
Jim, I'm going to ask you something, and I want you to understand that I'm not making fun or trying to insult you: do you have some form of learning or cognitive disability?
I don't think you're trolling, it's just rather disconcerting to see such a similar conversation repeated with the same participants in the same thread just about 90 days after the first one. If I'm reading too much into this and you just forgot, then there you go, click on the links above for a re-run of the conversation.
In any case, it's interesting for anyone to go back and look at the state of comparison between KD:M (and other "good communication" campaigns) and RH. The state of them really... seems to be pretty much unchanged, or at least that's how I would read things.
Let's do the time warp again!
I think the unveiling of the own forum is an interesting development.
I can't wait to see how everything is...handled...over there!
The WarStore also carries some RH stuff (oddly only listed under Fantasy Miniatures even though the page includes their Sci-Fi offerings), though they're regularly out of stock of some things. http://www.thewarstore.com/RagingHeroes.html
Wouldn't be shocked to see TGG show up there once retail launches either.
Google translate did a good job, and Alex provided the right correction for render.
Honestly, moderating a board and releasing information on it could be done easily... if only they had a street team of volunteers who would work for them, act as a conduit... but no, such a team does not exist. Too bad.
They could try re-recruiting their Heralds, which wouldn't surprise me seeing as they've got a new campaign coming up, but I don't see their own set of forums working, not the way they've been running information control until now.
It might go the way of GW's forums, they try to make it work but in the end decide to pull the plug.
BrookM wrote: They could try re-recruiting their Heralds, which wouldn't surprise me seeing as they've got a new campaign coming up, but I don't see their own set of forums working, not the way they've been running information control until now.
It might go the way of GW's forums, they try to make it work but in the end decide to pull the plug.
Well honestly the forums would be a great idea BUT if they have the same communication as now, having heralds won't do anything unless they are given information that others do not have.
BrookM wrote: Three NDA's by Raging Heroes? Wow, what happens when you break them?
Sorry no I mean I'm under 3NDAs in general, if RH chose to give heralds ones I would understand that. And honestly it's good practice if you have playtesters- or intermediaries ala PP or Malifaux has
You can face breach of contract, fines, loss of infomation. The usual if you break a business agreement. One just kicks me out of a program I'm not even allowed to mention who I have contracts with because it could be seen as a breach of an NDA.
So it's a feint, withint a feint, within a feint, Migooo? I kid, you must be under pressure just watching what you say all the time.
This came up in the comment:
Creator Loud'n Raging about 21 hours ago
@David Brodeur: Nous l'avons bien reçu, mais effectivement, comme c'est une demande complexe et inhabituelle, nous devons en discuter avant de pouvoir vous répondre et en ce moment, je dois vous avouer que nous sommes le nez dans la sculpture du matin jusqu'au soir... Mais nous devrions pouvoir vous revenir cette semaine à ce sujet, ou lundi prochain au plus tard.
@Drachnien: Thanks!
@Mathieu Raymond: C'est plutôt cool comme idée! Il faut qu'on étudie ça, et on en reparle une fois les TGG livrées!
Reads as
@David... he made a complex and unusual request, they have to talk about it at next meeting, no answer until next monday at least. They are sculpting from dawn til dusk.
@Petit little moi: That's a rather cool idea, we'll have to think about it once TGG has been completely delivered.
What I had proposed on the comments was that they should consider auctioning off their "rejected" masters, because of the slightly off proportions, or ball-joint shenanhigans or detail size. This could be an interesting way to own a piece of the process and let backers get something really unique out of this. I don't think it'll happen, but I'll certainly remind them. They could sell them with conditions (no right to reproduce and such)
Mathieu Raymond wrote: So it's a feint, withint a feint, within a feint, Migooo? I kid, you must be under pressure just watching what you say all the time.
This came up in the comment:
Creator Loud'n Raging about 21 hours ago
@David Brodeur: Nous l'avons bien reçu, mais effectivement, comme c'est une demande complexe et inhabituelle, nous devons en discuter avant de pouvoir vous répondre et en ce moment, je dois vous avouer que nous sommes le nez dans la sculpture du matin jusqu'au soir... Mais nous devrions pouvoir vous revenir cette semaine à ce sujet, ou lundi prochain au plus tard.
@Drachnien: Thanks!
@Mathieu Raymond: C'est plutôt cool comme idée! Il faut qu'on étudie ça, et on en reparle une fois les TGG livrées!
Reads as
@David... he made a complex and unusual request, they have to talk about it at next meeting, no answer until next monday at least. They are sculpting from dawn til dusk.
@Petit little moi: That's a rather cool idea, we'll have to think about it once TGG has been completely delivered.
What I had proposed on the comments was that they should consider auctioning off their "rejected" masters, because of the slightly off proportions, or ball-joint shenanhigans or detail size. This could be an interesting way to own a piece of the process and let backers get something really unique out of this. I don't think it'll happen, but I'll certainly remind them. They could sell them with conditions (no right to reproduce and such)
But hey, THEY'RE TALKING TO US. YAY!
Thanks for the update.
Yeah you have to be fairly careful. But if you want to be in that stage with companies you need to play ball. I will say that when I had an agreement with one company it was more of a handshake agreement until they decided too deal with a large media corporation. I stopped dealing with them on that level during that phase as things were brought more in house and the rules were far weaker because of it.
I think that they have finally stopped promising updates at specific times. Which is a shame because it always gave us a game to play while we waited... And they only missed their "2 updates in January" pledge by one day. So they were getting better.
I'm just thinking that they ought not to pay their community outreach employee too much... because there hasn't been much outreach past those few KS comments.
It's been a month, are we due for another overly long update?
@Mark Ofman: Coming very very soon now! I'm still trying to squeeze in a few more sculpts into it rather than concepts, so as to make your final selection easier But do tell: what are you thinking of picking up?
@Balgin Stodraeg: Cheers!
@Urroz Yohan: Merci pour le soleil des tropiques, c'est ce qui nous manque trop en ce moment!
The coming very soon comment is regarding the Pledge Manager.
The French is OT, so not worth translating. Really.
I've been on their facebook a couple of times, I haven't seen anything really. I will admit to not stalking their DumPstr... I mean Tumblr anymore. And surely you can't mean they're on Twitter, right?
After the TGG can actually be very vague. TGG Wave 1? TGG au complet with all the add-ons they had at the end of the campaign? If the latter, not a chance this is happening in 2014.
Haha agreed, but charting their progress of TGG project via this thread, I will not be backing that project! You have to wonder how long the market for Dark Elves will be viable, as Fantasy is terrible at present - even GW have lowered the focus on it (or its due to the lowered focus that Fantasy is terrible currently...)
If the delays drag on, it may not be so profitable to KS an entire armies worth of production for a game no one wants to play.
I think they did miss that boat if they wanted to be relevant or timely, or they could be thinking that their minis will justify a revival of the ranges.
I've been assuming they'll at least wait until Wave 1 ships before starting the next project. I'd prefer the whole thing to be done, but as long as I have at least SOME minis in hand, I'll feel better about backing the next thing. Not going to lie, if they can show me some nice Dark Elves I will be in for that too, and the Space Nuns were already a foregone conclusion with me.
Alpharius wrote: I think that, despite everything, you should be cautiously optimistic.
Why do you hate me so, Alpharius?
At least, if this thread is to be believed, the first part of TGG will be done before they start that one and I can get some first hand accounts before dropping dough.
So, the last comment (not update, mere comment) was Feb 24;
@Mark Ofman: Coming very very soon now! I'm still trying to squeeze in a few more sculpts into it rather than concepts, so as to make your final selection easier But do tell: what are you thinking of picking up?
@Balgin Stodraeg: Cheers!
@Urroz Yohan: Merci pour le soleil des tropiques, c'est ce qui nous manque trop en ce moment!
The reference to Mark [Ho]ffman is a response to the question: "So... the Pledge Manager.... where are we on that?"
The last official update was Update #83 on January 31.
It's clearly possible to at least partially reverse apathy (see what happened when SPM started talking to their backers), but I have serious doubts that RH is willing or able to do so. This is the kind of communication that happens after hiring a specific team member for PR?
I got in on TGG at $15 just to sample their product. The results have been damning, and there's not a chance in hell I'll back any similar campaign in the future.
The only way they're getting any more of my money is if they offer the basic infantry in high impact polystyrene. $4 for a 5 point model is just stupid.
Not gonna lie - GW's Dark Eldar are pretty damn detailed. I'm absolutely confident Raging Heroes could outdo them with the same medium. If the Dark Elves were plastic, I'd do everything in my power to buy a crapton of minis from them.
The only way they're getting any more of my money is if they offer the basic infantry in high impact polystyrene. $4 for a 5 point model is just stupid.
Isn't that though just the purpose you intend them for, so far we do not know their game system and their model count so their price can be logical if the model count is small enough.
Would you be willing to do the work to offer at least one of the basic units as a High Impact Polystyrene sprue as well as the restic you already have planned? This would be a way to test the waters with minimal investment, so that your miniatures may become a viable way to build an entire army. The price per miniature is very high for what would likely be a 5 point Imperial Guardswoman, so letting people bulk out their armies with HIPS Kurganovas or Jailbirds while buying restic and metal for specialists would make it a lot easier for people to collect TGG armies.
If Raging Heroes started working in plastic they would immediately become my favourite manufacturer, delays be damned.
If Raging Heroes started working in plastic they would immediately become my favourite manufacturer, delays be damned.
See, you say that, but you don't realize what the shocking twist will be: by the time RH have their molds prepared, the petroleum used to make their plastics will consist of your geologically-compressed remains.
If Raging Heroes started working in plastic they would immediately become my favourite manufacturer, delays be damned.
See, you say that, but you don't realize what the shocking twist will be: by the time RH have their molds prepared, the petroleum used to make their plastics will consist of your geologically-compressed remains.
Dentry wrote: From what I'm reading, then, it's foolish to except Sisters to deliver any time before 2018? Kinda tempers the enthusiasm.
I know there's a fair amount of kidding around in here but that 2018 thing's got to be a joke, right?
Well, the way things are looking, it might take them a year to finish the last 20% of TGG. If they start the next KS immediately, it might take 5 years to get all 100% completed.
Alpharius wrote: I know there's a fair amount of kidding around in here but that 2018 thing's got to be a joke, right?
All joking and hyperbole aside, I think 2018 is the absolutely earliest you could reasonably expect to see the Sisters launch from Raging Heroes presuming their current work progresses at a similar pace. The first thread in which they addressed the idea of having a Kickstarter was Jan 26th 2013, and in that thread they said they had been working on it since last May (god help me, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming "last may" meant 2012) - Still, 22 months ago.
I'm only half-joking with the 2018 thing, it's a bit of a cynical outlook. But that estimate is factoring in the KS planning, launch, design, manufacturing, freight, and utlimately distribution timeframes. Going by TGG I'm not sure that's such a ridiculous figure.
I was also under the impression that Raging Heroes would be launching three separate kickstarters; one each for TGG, Dark Elves, and Sisters in that order. It's safe to say TGG's estimated deliver on the KS of March 2014 has proved unattainable. Going on 8 months since its close. So assuming that the Dark Elf KS doesn't start until the TGG stuff is at least shipping (if not yet shipped), that's likely to be another ~1 year endeavor and another year for the actual Sisters KS from launch to fulfillment. So maybe 2016 until Sisters are in hand?
Who knows at this point. RH could streamline their operation with the experience gained from each successive KS and/or improve their production pipeline and staff.
Personally I think it is a realistic outlook. As others have said, concepts aside, the sisters and elves need to be done from the ground up, unless they have been diverting their time from the last 20% of TGG to get 80% of both those ranges done now, in time for the KS in the next two months.
pretre wrote: So I love SOB but am terrified of this thread. Should I be excited for this or not?
As much as the delays will make me weep, RH is going to take a SIGNIFICANT chunk of money of me with that KS.
I figure I'll let the products hit retail, and use my immediate cash on things that are available immediately, and not likely to be delayed by 12-36 months.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlexHolker wrote: I got in on TGG at $15 just to sample their product. The results have been damning, and there's not a chance in hell I'll back any similar campaign in the future.
The only way they're getting any more of my money is if they offer the basic infantry in high impact polystyrene. $4 for a 5 point model is just stupid.
You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
Azazelx wrote: You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Azazelx wrote: You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.
Oh of course they're essentially proxies. That doesn't in any way invalidate my point though. You might be better off with green army men given your attitude to their prices and expecting them to match GW codex points costs. You may as well go troll Vic's thread and Mad Robot's threads with the same unrealistic complaint. For that matter, the Germanic TGG look like they might work better as stormtroopers so they should be more expensive. And their not-sisters should cost double what the TGG do, even if they are the same size, and so on and on. Kromlech and Maxmini and so forth need to reprice their orcs to be 1/3 of the cost of their marines despite being larger... and those not-gretchen should be practically free!
pretre wrote: So I love SOB but am terrified of this thread. Should I be excited for this or not?
As much as the delays will make me weep, RH is going to take a SIGNIFICANT chunk of money of me with that KS.
I figure I'll let the products hit retail, and use my immediate cash on things that are available immediately, and not likely to be delayed by 12-36 months.
I totally understand (and approve, in theory) the idea that it's better for creators to take their time and get things right, rather then do the Mantic Deadline Rush (TM). But there is also something to be said for the creators being humble (as I think, say, Mark Mondragon and Adam Poots are) and realizing that the more a product is delayed, the greater its effective cost.
Seriously, at a certain point in the delay cycle we aren't just not getting a deal, we're actually paying more then retail.
Like folks said above, I'd really like to be excited about this project again, but damn if RH doesn't make it hard...
We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.
Azazelx wrote: You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.
I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the cost of a model with the number you're going to need to buy to field.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Alex to expect basic Guardsmen (or their counts-as models) to have less of an impact on his wallet than models he would need to buy less than half the number of in order to field an army.
I'm not entirely sure that it's always going to be possible, and I don't think anyone expects there to be an exact dollar-to-points ratio, but the idea that Boyz should be cheaper than, say, Grey Knights Terminators seems like a very understandable one.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.
The thing is, that isn't necessarily a good sign: you will also notice that the comments are coming pretty darned slow. I said this a while back (maybe about Relic Knights?), that a Kickstarter Campaign is an opportunity to turn interested people first into customers, and then into fans.
I really don't think that RH has managed that transition (much less fans into ambassadors for the brand) particularly well. What has happened instead is that people that were involved, were motivated to post, are simply falling off. I know that I have dramatically decreased how often I check this thread (and almost never check the KS comments) because... I just don't care anymore.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.
The thing is, that isn't necessarily a good sign: you will also notice that the comments are coming pretty darned slow. I said this a while back (maybe about Relic Knights?), that a Kickstarter Campaign is an opportunity to turn interested people first into customers, and then into fans.
I really don't think that RH has managed that transition (much less fans into ambassadors for the brand) particularly well. What has happened instead is that people that were involved, were motivated to post, are simply falling off. I know that I have dramatically decreased how often I check this thread (and almost never check the KS comments) because... I just don't care anymore.
It still baffles me how little they (RH) seem to care what others talk about. I mean... yes, they have improved a bit on the quality of their updates... but that's just not enough. If a one-man KS can release weekly QUALITY updates, than there is no excuse for others not to do so.
Or look at Mierce. Two Kickstarters and ABSOLUTELY REGULAR weekly updates for both of them. Awesome updates every week in fact. Pictures, heads-up on mistakes they made (like sending a wrong picture to their sculptor.), fixes for their mistakes, ETAs on all of their stuff. WIP galore...
The optimist in me continues to hope that what they fail to do in the communication department they will make up for in the quality department when I finally get my finished minis. Fingers crossed.
I have the three sisters and they're fine minis. I'm actually surprised that the limited edition boxed set is still on sale, despite being such a hot item.
I do to, and as you said, they are fine minis. But not out of this world, really. I'd put them under Confrontation levels of awesomess (which is my gold standard). The thing is, you can see from the updates that the minis are going to be comparable to those, and it's good, because uniformity across a range is desirable. But to wait *that* long for it? It's only six months to them being a year late for Wave 1. I can almost see it happening.
I remember an art book; I'm pretty sure I remember them previewing this particular page, because I recall pointing out how it does a complete dis-service to the actual art. Seriously, if the point is to highlight the art... why is it off center and melding into the far-too-dark background?
It's so poorly done I wonder if it isn't meant as a joke.
I care less that it's poorly done than I do about the fact they're fannying about with art books when they can't even manage to give us regular WiP updates on the models, let alone actually roll out the pledge manager or complete and ship some actual physical product.
Yodhrin wrote: I care less that it's poorly done than I do about the fact they're fannying about with art books when they can't even manage to give us regular WiP updates on the models, let alone actually roll out the pledge manager or complete and ship some actual physical product.
That's the stupefying thing: doing it right (just putting the art on the page with minimal addition, ala the Infinity art book) is actually less work then taking the time to smear Gothic excrement on the page the way they have done there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cross-posting from the comments;
Dustin, you are wrong only in that it's not about what they WANT, but what they PROMISED. Specifically, as people began to complain about a lack of more tangible miniatures being previewed during the campaign they stated that "Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis." (see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3090/530736.page#5815187)
It's not altruism that is delaying the pledge manager, it's an EXPLICIT promise that "finalised[sic]" sculpts will be shown before people are locked-in on the pledge manager.
It's a trap, of their own making: they were petrified of showing renders and prints during the campaign, so to mollify the crowd they promised that no sales would be final until the sculpts were finalized. This has, entirely predictably, meant a bottleneck; they cannot open the pledge manager until they have done all the work, which means that they can't gather numbers for production reliably even though some of the miniatures have been done for rapidly approaching a year now.
And in looking up the reference above, I came across a post that typifies this point;
BrookM wrote: I have the three sisters and they're fine minis. I'm actually surprised that the limited edition boxed set is still on sale, despite being such a hot item.
Guess it wasn't so hot in the end, eh? (and yes, I have it, too). As Mathieu said, they're nice, but not the finest miniatures in the world.
Gomericus wrote: why arent any of the female squads or 'space nuns' for sale dagnabbit.
Because they don't exist yet. The nuns are really far from existing. They're not even up to 80% completed yet - which is really the starting point for this sort of thing.
Iron Wings wrote: Raging Heroes you have my endorsement to commercially topple GW
The only company they're in danger of putting out of business is Raging Heroes.
BrookM wrote: It will be interesting to see how well the next KS will do and how much has been learned from the current one.
Hm. Good point. In that case, I think I'd prefer if they do actually start the next campaign before finishing this one. Though this is clearly a company that should stay away from crowdfunding and just release models as they're completed on a regular basis.
Maybe they see the creative part of the process as the 80%.
Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.
I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.
I'll back another kickstarter , as I've said before I'm happy when my minis get here , no rush for me as i have a painting backlog that is a mile long.
Personally the KS isn't the joke in this thread it's the people who are bitterly disappointed yet keep checking for info every few days. Join the once a month club and feel contentment fill your life. - trust me it's worth it, check in french timeline and you will feel better
Trust me, I work smack in the middle of a huge French diaspora... they are as impatient as the next person. At least when it comes to serving them what they want, right now, as cheaply as possible, sankyouverymuch. Just like everyone else. I've taken the occasional jab at the French work ethic, but let's face it, they want to play with the big boys, they have to deliver eventually.
I'd join the once a month club, if only we'd get *tangible* info once a month. (The Happy New Year update wasn't quite useful, let's be honest)
I swear, if Dreamforge delivers its Black Widows before this one does...
Azazelx wrote: You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.
They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.
I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the cost of a model with the number you're going to need to buy to field.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Alex to expect basic Guardsmen (or their counts-as models) to have less of an impact on his wallet than models he would need to buy less than half the number of in order to field an army.
I'm not entirely sure that it's always going to be possible, and I don't think anyone expects there to be an exact dollar-to-points ratio, but the idea that Boyz should be cheaper than, say, Grey Knights Terminators seems like a very understandable one.
Nah, that's years of GW-style brainwashing at work. Unfortunately, it's permeated most of the industry and hobby and leads to bs like the latest that GW is coming out with in terms of Eldar Dire Avenger prices, Witch Elves, Dwarf Hammerers/Longbeards and so forth.
US$4 a figure is actually a pretty reasonable price for (non-HIPS) models with a high level of detail. It also makes them slightly cheaper than the AU$price of IG - though Alex likes to find highly-discounted UK prices that aren't actually available to him for comparison.
Still, we don't see Alex visiting the Vic Ministhread or the Mad Robot thread and demanding they halve their prices for not-imperial Guard. gak, Steve from Mad Robot has the gall to have put up a pre-order for a torso with grenade launcher for $3. Just a Torso! For three bucks! How dare he? Vic sells squads of 10 for $50! The Gall!
Now please stop making me defend RH. It's making me feel dirty.
Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.
I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.
Not trying to be contrary, just curious: do you still buy GW product? I only ask because I feel like RH cares WAY more about our opinions and our patronage than GW does. (Really, not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Have you reached the point of frustration where you are only paying out your money to companies that you think are listening to your opinions, or is it that you felt like there was going to be more input with RH and have become disillusioned?)
Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Azazel, because you fething suck at it.
My argument is and always has been that the cost of entry should be low enough that someone can build a "pauper" army of the cheap stuff to serve as the foundation for a more refined army later. It does not mean that you should jack up the cost of entry of other armies just because.
If you simply don't have the funds to afford HIPS, that's fine. I have no beef with Vic or Mad Robot for that. But if you spend three bloody months being a cocktease before you admit that your prices are going to be gak, and you've got the million dollars and the time to do things right, I'm going to think less of you for settling for the mediocrity of an expensive and completely untested material like the latest flavour of restic.
Because you want HIPS it does not mean they want, it does not mean the product can be serviced with HIPS and of course it does not mean they feel the urge to contract a Chinese factory to do their work.
Also you base your price assumptions as proxy for GW games, why should they be priced like that? because you want it?
AlexHolker wrote: Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Azazel, because you fething suck at it.
My argument is and always has been that the cost of entry should be low enough that someone can build a "pauper" army of the cheap stuff to serve as the foundation for a more refined army later. It does not mean that you should jack up the cost of entry of other armies just because.
If you simply don't have the funds to afford HIPS, that's fine. I have no beef with Vic or Mad Robot for that. But if you spend three bloody months being a cocktease before you admit that your prices are going to be gak, and you've got the million dollars and the time to do things right, I'm going to think less of you for settling for the mediocrity of an expensive and completely untested material like the latest flavour of restic.
Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?
The pricing comes out to ~$4 a mini for grunts at retail before any discounts and shipping, which isn't that bad - provided you don't need a hundred of them for what game you're playing. GW may be the behemoth in the industry, but they aren't the only company out there. I imagine the price is set to what RH needs it to be to stay in business. $30 (Kickstarter price) for 10 resin-plastic models with some extra options isn't a terrible deal by a long shot, especially if the casting process can stand up to the detail that we've seen in the renders.
I do agree that the hero models are a bit pricey for being metals, especially when Reaper, Foundry, Perry Miniatures, and several other companies are doing metals for much less. My best guess would be an economies of scale issue, but I'm not privy to that information. If you were part of the KS, the heroes came out far ahead of the other models in terms of the discount received. Although, the prices given are estimated retail prices. They could very well end up close to the KS price at retail once this whole thing is finished.
I also agree that RH would be wise to consider researching plastic production opportunities, but I'm not sure that's what the company wants right now. If RH is not looking to get into plastics, then customers will have to look elsewhere to meet their gaming and modelling desires, which is disappointing, but there it is.
Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.
I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.
Not trying to be contrary, just curious: do you still buy GW product? I only ask because I feel like RH cares WAY more about our opinions and our patronage than GW does. (Really, not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Have you reached the point of frustration where you are only paying out your money to companies that you think are listening to your opinions, or is it that you felt like there was going to be more input with RH and have become disillusioned?)
You may have a point. I feel spoiled by Dreamforge and Paulson Games. Both have asked for opinions and feedback by showing WIPs, or downright responding to personal emails and incorporating ideas. They may have coloured my impression of how to do business. Then again, my wife says that I am her "consumate salesman" at work and custom framing is eminently a feedback-based product. I don't feel that GW responds or cares much about customer feedback or community input. And to answer your question, no I don't send money GW's way much these days. I'm trying to get rid of my Space Marines, I have a fully proxy'd Astra Militarum army in the works, I even use other minis for their RPGs. I might buy, ironically, rulebooks, just because my gaming group is still very skittish about other game systems. GW doesn't go crowd-funding, however. Maybe I see it as a gentlemen's agreement: You get my money, but you be a good sport about making me feel implicated in the process. Unspoken, but no less extant.
PsychoticStorm wrote:Because you want HIPS it does not mean they want, it does not mean the product can be serviced with HIPS and of course it does not mean they feel the urge to contract a Chinese factory to do their work.
Also you base your price assumptions as proxy for GW games, why should they be priced like that? because you want it?
There is a strong commitment to making stuff locally both in Europe and in some segments of American culture. It's a way to beat the stagnating economy. "Made in China" sometimes means a product sells less in some circles. I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the impetus. If it is, they should advertise it as such.
-iPaint- wrote: Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?
I think people who aren't buying these models as GW proxies are the minority. I think it's understood that these models were always intended to be third party substitutes for GW models.
-iPaint- wrote: Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?
I think people who aren't buying these models as GW proxies are the minority. I think it's understood that these models were always intended to be third party substitutes for GW models.
Agreed. Though for the life of me, I can't remember what I wanted to use them for...
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
Depends on how you see the issue. If best bang for your buck is the be all end all then I agree. A lot of business owners and consumers now want to know that the money stays in the community and helps people in it. Call it socialism if you want to, a lot of people just feel a stronger kinship or concern for them rather than an even more faceless Chinese worker. As the owner of a business that relies almost exclusively on local labor and products... I'm quite happy that not everyone buys the same 4 pieces of art from IKEA.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.
Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.
Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.
And having an export balance rather than an import balance for a country is *generally* seen as a good thing. Again, specific cases can be built against it too. But we're going OT. If only Raging Heroes would give us something to talk about...
Now now, let us not be ungrateful little gaks and instead be more positive about this all, as soon as we got something, anything positive to cling onto.
An update is up! At... 6AM Paris time? These guys really are using some serious drugs, aren't they?
As an aside, while the stuff looks really good, what the hell? It's like they are frustrated film makers; it's not enough to put out a fine looking render, you have to action pose it. There are F-ing Dutch angles on the freaking renders. I think that actually is it, these folk act like just making miniatures is beneath them, so everything has to be a production.
An update as things happen? Nah, why do that when you can photoshop a month's worth of work into a montage of yelling/screaming miniatures?
As a final aside, I'm endlessly amused that this,
Exists in the same world as this,
Also, the amount of pretty alternate faces in the Iron Empire makes no sense, I thought they were all hideously disfigured and hid their faces, because the pretty ones were the only fertile ones or something like that?
But again, maybe I missed it, but when will we get wave 1?
The weapons platforms and bikes remain both overpriced and crap designs. The weapon platforms have tiny, top-heavy chassis that do not look like they could credibly move under their own power without falling over, and the bikes have forward-firing machine guns on a vehicle which would be incapable of doing anything but drive in a straight line.
Due to your very positive feedback on spin-cast Heroines, and the fact that we had to do some more works on the Troops, we have decided to turn the production schedule around, and produce at least a large chunk of spin-cast resin Heroines before getting back to the Troops.
The sculpts look pretty decent IMO. I'm with Bullockist from earlier, I'm so overextended on other stuff that frankly the delays are probably for the best.
RH fem troops may be eclipsed by the Vic Arcadians when taking everything into account. Mixed male/female regiment, great quality, extra parts, full multi-part/multi-pose. The male Arcadians so far look great, and the WIP fems have looked promising too. Scale is perfect for 40k too whereas RH is possibly a touch large.
Well #42 is pretty much exactly what I wanted it to be, which just makes me even more annoyed that the unit of cyber zombies still has that melee artwork, fingers crossed for a change there still.
Resin spincasts definitely seem to come out well if they all turn out like the ones they've shown us, always been a bit dubious of both the material and the method before.
Yonan wrote: RH fem troops may be eclipsed by the Vic Arcadians when taking everything into account. Mixed male/female regiment, great quality, extra parts, full multi-part/multi-pose. The male Arcadians so far look great, and the WIP fems have looked promising too. Scale is perfect for 40k too whereas RH is possibly a touch large.
Not just large, but the way some of the ladies spread those legs they're having a hard time fitting onto a regular 28mm base, just look at the three sisters, gak, do they need to stop doing that.
My only hope right now is that they'll also include general Wolfenstein with the first wave.
And if we had followed our original plans, we would be currently in the process of wrapping up with the last batch of minis on their way to you.
But the means you gave us meant that we were able to rework most of the sculpts...
Hah, brilliant, so now we're getting the same excuses/reasoning used by an abusive spouse. "I only hit you 'cause you make me mad!"
The miniatures look quite nice, as expected, but I'll still be cashing out in wave 1 if I can, no chance am I hanging about for however many more months it takes them to "perfect" wave 2.
And if we had followed our original plans, we would be currently in the process of wrapping up with the last batch of minis on their way to you.
But the means you gave us meant that we were able to rework most of the sculpts...
Hah, brilliant, so now we're getting the same excuses/reasoning used by an abusive spouse. "I only hit you 'cause you make me mad!"
The miniatures look quite nice, as expected, but I'll still be cashing out in wave 1 if I can, no chance am I hanging about for however many more months it takes them to "perfect" wave 2.
According to the bit of fluff in the update, they fight naked in honor of Davidia, their Patron Saint of Nudity. We should be tolerant of their religious practices.
cincydooley wrote: Why are they all nearly naked...and wearing Gears of War boots....
Likely for greater balance and posing options. With power-feet they have a larger surface to glue them to a base with and the weight of those boots will also help lower the center of gravity if they're top heavy (from swords and such).
Just wait for the Sodomettes, I'm sure they'll have very interesting gear options.
pretre wrote: Hoo boy. At least they aren't barefoot like repentia.
Which, based on the fluff shared by RH, would actually make more sense than these Gothic/Industrial stompy boots.
Apparently their giant swords have an ability to break down the molecules of armor, so these warriors fight nearly naked so as to not have their own weapons destroy them. But I guess armor is only a concern in this regard when it comes to T&A, Feet and arms... no problem!
pretre wrote: Hoo boy. At least they aren't barefoot like repentia.
Which, based on the fluff shared by RH, would actually make more sense than these Gothic/Industrial stompy boots.
Apparently their giant swords have an ability to break down the molecules of armor, so these warriors fight nearly naked so as to not have their own weapons destroy them. But I guess armor is only a concern in this regard when it comes to T&A, Feet and arms... no problem!
Probably shouldn't be holding those swords so close to their boots then...
pretre wrote: Hoo boy. At least they aren't barefoot like repentia.
Which, based on the fluff shared by RH, would actually make more sense than these Gothic/Industrial stompy boots.
Apparently their giant swords have an ability to break down the molecules of armor, so these warriors fight nearly naked so as to not have their own weapons destroy them. But I guess armor is only a concern in this regard when it comes to T&A, Feet and arms... no problem!
Because, you know, any situation where they'd have to worry about "breaking down their armor" certainly wouldn't be a problem for a naked chick.
Hahahaha.
I actually will probably get a few models from the first KS. Have they given ANY hint as to when it might ship?
cincydooley wrote: Why are they all nearly naked...and wearing Gears of War boots....
The boots are called priests, because they save their soles.
I'll get my coat...
As for the update, it's nice that we've had one, even if the information could have easily been split over the past few weeks rather than dumped in one go like this.
It's a shame that the troopers have been dropped from the first wave, but on the other hand nice that we have (what should be) a final list. They just need to get the pledge manager out now so people can start sorting out what first wave stuff they want. Though I can see this change causing some people to adjust what they were after if they were planning on cashing out in wave one. The cynic in me would tend to think that this change was intentionally aimed at those people, try and tempt them to stay in for a while longer and possibly spend more money with wave 2 / 3.
The renders all look good, but then that's not really been a big concern with the project. Though I'm still not sold on the artillery sets. I think it'll be command boxes for their weapons rather than the smaller figure count artillery boxes. I think the bikes have grown on me a little, even if the guns are a bit impractical. The only downside is that all of them have wonky front wheels, the joint to the bars isn't centred so won't provide a smooth ride even on a new road surface.
So, now that the pledge manager is 80% complete, the question is will we see it before the new IG codex? I'm thinking not, especially as RH seem to want to have stock on hand for wave one rather than getting an idea of how much stock they need.
cincydooley wrote: Do you know if ya'll are gonna be able to add gak on during the PM?
If so, I may try and piggy back on one of you for a model or three.
I thought they said that the ability to add to your pledge would end before the pledge manager dropped, but they might have meant that it would end WITH the pledge manager dropping.
It could just be the current paypal option that's going away. It all depends on how they've put the pledge manager together and whether or not they're wanting to turn down extra money at this stage.
pretre wrote: I am a die-hard SOB zealot and I can't imagine wanting to deal with the heartburn of one of their KS.
They have a generic called Ranitidine that does wonder for heartburn. I've been on it since September... at least 80% of the time.
As for the not-repentia's nakedness... I'd give them a branch. Cuz, you know Davidians.
I'll join prankster outside
I'm very, very pissed that the troops have been dropped from Wave 1. I'm not going to cash out by ordering a bunch of multiples of the same heroines, dammit.
I love that they aren't even trying to hide the fact about what these not-Repentia models intended use is. Giant swords and naked women covered in scripture, yeah sure we can justify that somehow.
cincydooley wrote: Why are they all nearly naked...and wearing Gears of War boots....
The Vow of Poverty has a loophole for chainsaws and mecha boots.
Here's a question. I kind of took it for a given that the Space Nuns and Dark Elf lines would both be much more fetishistic than the TGG. Am I the odd man out? I mean, Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar are already pandering to some fetish markets already, (light S&M, chicks with guns, etc) so I just naturally assumed that third party miniatures aimed at that niche would probably do the same. Were other people expecting something different?
Which I suppose brings me to another (related) point. What are people expecting out of the next KS? Since it seemed like there was a wide variety of expectations on this one, I'm curious as to whether or not there is a consensus from the community from what they want.
Personally, out of the Sisters KS, I just want models that look like they could be fielded alongside GW Sisters and not look weird, while still maintaining the high detail and quality of the Raging Heroes minis I've seen so far. (At KS prices, lol!)
So what are YOU guys expecting out of the next KS? (And just to get it out of the way, "Poor communication!" "Production delays!" "No updates!" "Pigeon toes!" "80% deliciousness!" There. I think that covers them all. )
Jimsolo wrote: (And just to get it out of the way, "Poor communication!" "Production delays!" "No updates!" "Pigeon toes!" "80% deliciousness!" There. I think that covers them all. )
Jimsolo wrote: Personally, out of the Sisters KS, I just want models that look like they could be fielded alongside GW Sisters and not look weird, while still maintaining the high detail and quality of the Raging Heroes minis I've seen so far. (At KS prices, lol!)
So what are YOU guys expecting out of the next KS? (And just to get it out of the way, "Poor communication!" "Production delays!" "No updates!" "Pigeon toes!" "80% deliciousness!" There. I think that covers them all. )
I abstained from TGG in favor of Sisters so I only briefly followed the KS while it was going on and, afterward, seldomly checked this thread. My expectation is that it's run very close to how TGG was run, maybe a little better defined pledge tiers at the start.
But I hope for more.
• Structured much better than TGG in reward tiers, stretch goals, and reserved timeslots for manufacturing. There was a lot of floundering during the TGG KS on what the hell you were pledging for and the overtly arbitrary goals for unlocks.
• Streamlined production to fulfillment resulting in a quicker turn around. Not quite the same thing as "Production delays!"
• Neat, fun figures loosely based on the little sister and Sister Benedron pictured below.
I can't say I'm overly fond of the huge boots on the Davidians, though. They really seem out of place with the rest of the models. Why not knee/shin-high boots wrapped in the parchment/scrolls like the rest of the "armor?" Could allow for some fancy lace-work up the front or sides, as well as expanding on the wing motif a bit.
Seems there's too much going on with the model below the knees, really detracts from the overall appearance and theme (bogus ham-fisted lore aside - if it destroys armor, why does the middle figure have a powered gauntlet??? Or is that magically safe from their swords too? Gah!).
cincydooley wrote: Why are they all nearly naked...and wearing Gears of War boots....
The Vow of Poverty has a loophole for chainsaws and mecha boots.
Here's a question. I kind of took it for a given that the Space Nuns and Dark Elf lines would both be much more fetishistic than the TGG. Am I the odd man out? I mean, Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar are already pandering to some fetish markets already, (light S&M, chicks with guns, etc) so I just naturally assumed that third party miniatures aimed at that niche would probably do the same. Were other people expecting something different?
Which I suppose brings me to another (related) point. What are people expecting out of the next KS? Since it seemed like there was a wide variety of expectations on this one, I'm curious as to whether or not there is a consensus from the community from what they want.
Personally, out of the Sisters KS, I just want models that look like they could be fielded alongside GW Sisters and not look weird, while still maintaining the high detail and quality of the Raging Heroes minis I've seen so far. (At KS prices, lol!)
So what are YOU guys expecting out of the next KS? (And just to get it out of the way, "Poor communication!" "Production delays!" "No updates!" "Pigeon toes!" "80% deliciousness!" There. I think that covers them all. )
I don't know about everyone else, but I'm expecting the same thing. A kickstarter I sink waaaay too much money in so I can wait waaaaaay to long to arrive for miniatures I do not have time to paint. However I'm also expecting lots of hot girls in weird nun fetish gear carrying ridiculous weapons that are even more way over the top than the last KS. Plus as a bonus a brand new 180 page thread on dakka to pass the time while I wait. Its gonna be a good year
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BrookM wrote: Yeah, why are they wearing those big ass Mario movie boots?
Jimsolo wrote: Here's a question. I kind of took it for a given that the Space Nuns and Dark Elf lines would both be much more fetishistic than the TGG. Am I the odd man out? I mean, Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar are already pandering to some fetish markets already, (light S&M, chicks with guns, etc) so I just naturally assumed that third party miniatures aimed at that niche would probably do the same. Were other people expecting something different?
I'm perfectly fine with them hitting someone's kink - it would be hard not to when something as simple as "a woman with a rifle" qualifies. Just don't suck at it. Pigeon toes means you suck at it.
My personal conceit for not!Sisters is much more restrained - a religious not-for-profit organisation as a peacekeeping force ("the Salvation Army with an army"), with sonic and microwave weapons and Repressor-esque riot vehicles - but I knew that that wasn't what they were going for.
Which I suppose brings me to another (related) point. What are people expecting out of the next KS? Since it seemed like there was a wide variety of expectations on this one, I'm curious as to whether or not there is a consensus from the community from what they want.
What I want is at least one High Impact Polystyrene kit per faction, so I can go and buy 50 basic grunts for $100 instead of for $200 and without worrying that whatever restic they use will be full of holes, or melt in the Australian sun, or be carelessly torn off the sprues, or shrink, or any one of the problems that do not exist for this tried and tested material.
Jimsolo wrote: Here's a question. I kind of took it for a given that the Space Nuns and Dark Elf lines would both be much more fetishistic than the TGG. Am I the odd man out? I mean, Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar are already pandering to some fetish markets already, (light S&M, chicks with guns, etc) so I just naturally assumed that third party miniatures aimed at that niche would probably do the same. Were other people expecting something different?
I'm perfectly fine with them hitting someone's kink - it would be hard not to when something as simple as "a woman with a rifle" qualifies. Just don't suck at it. Pigeon toes means you suck at it.
My personal conceit for not!Sisters is much more restrained - a religious not-for-profit organisation as a peacekeeping force ("the Salvation Army with an army"), with sonic and microwave weapons and Repressor-esque riot vehicles - but I knew that that wasn't what they were going for.
Which I suppose brings me to another (related) point. What are people expecting out of the next KS? Since it seemed like there was a wide variety of expectations on this one, I'm curious as to whether or not there is a consensus from the community from what they want.
What I want is at least one High Impact Polystyrene kit per faction, so I can go and buy 50 basic grunts for $100 instead of for $200 and without worrying that whatever restic they use will be full of holes, or melt in the Australian sun, or be carelessly torn off the sprues, or shrink, or any one of the problems that do not exist for this tried and tested material.
As far as the pigeon toes goes, it looks like the majority of figures that were shown to be pigeon toed in the concept art have been 'fixed' during sculpting. (Most notably among the troops.)
Jimsolo wrote: As far as the pigeon toes goes, it looks like the majority of figures that were shown to be pigeon toed in the concept art have been 'fixed' during sculpting. (Most notably among the troops.)
You don't know that, because we're not getting them. They might yet again change them back to pigeony-goodness.
Not trying to be contrary, just curious: do you still buy GW product? I only ask because I feel like RH cares WAY more about our opinions and our patronage than GW does. (Really, not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Have you reached the point of frustration where you are only paying out your money to companies that you think are listening to your opinions, or is it that you felt like there was going to be more input with RH and have become disillusioned?)
I know you weren't asking me, but I don't really feel that either of the two companies cares that much. RH only seem to like fawning, positive feedback, and get a bit upset at anything but. GW, as we know, are big enough to not really give a gak.
AlexHolker wrote: Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Azazel, because you fething suck at it.
My argument is and always has been that the cost of entry should be low enough that someone can build a "pauper" army of the cheap stuff to serve as the foundation for a more refined army later. It does not mean that you should jack up the cost of entry of other armies just because.
If you simply don't have the funds to afford HIPS, that's fine. I have no beef with Vic or Mad Robot for that. But if you spend three bloody months being a cocktease before you admit that your prices are going to be gak, and you've got the million dollars and the time to do things right, I'm going to think less of you for settling for the mediocrity of an expensive and completely untested material like the latest flavour of restic.
/facepalm.
RH have never been and never will be a company that caters to "pauper" armies of the cheap stuff. It's not their gig. You're just endlessly screaming into the wind if you think otherwise. Going on and on and on about the $ cost of "a 5 point model" from a third party is to miss the point of what most companies actually produce, and especially one like RH.
Do I think they could do better? Of course I do. But look at it this way - Mantic, who despite endless (and often justified) criticism, have their production gak together in a way that RH probably never will (Would you trust RH to organise a root in a brothel? I wouldn't!), still can't manage to get decent stuff produced in HIPS - and maybe, just maybe, might have something like that by the end of this year, despite several years playing with KS dollars. RH also got just under $700k, which after Ama-KS' cut works out to be about $630k - closer to half a million than a million, and they have a feth load of figures to produce besides the basic troopers - especially since they decided to go with three factions at once. Would I like it if they got something like DFG-Mark's project going for HIPS troops? Of course I would, but that's not happening here, so maybe you should finally "get" that RH are not the cheap models you're looking for and will probably never will be, and RH are under no obligation to produce exactly what you're asking for. And while it would be great if they got Renedra or WGF to produce some HIPS troops for cheap, I probably wouldn't kickstart the project, either at this stage.
I'll be skipping their troopers as well, at the very least until their reviews are out. I've been burnt enough by gakky restic myself to not risk money on the stuff.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Because you want HIPS it does not mean they want, it does not mean the product can be serviced with HIPS and of course it does not mean they feel the urge to contract a Chinese factory to do their work.
Also you base your price assumptions as proxy for GW games, why should they be priced like that? because you want it?
You may have a point. I feel spoiled by Dreamforge and Paulson Games. Both have asked for opinions and feedback by showing WIPs, or downright responding to personal emails and incorporating ideas. They may have coloured my impression of how to do business. Then again, my wife says that I am her "consumate salesman" at work and custom framing is eminently a feedback-based product. I don't feel that GW responds or cares much about customer feedback or community input. And to answer your question, no I don't send money GW's way much these days. I'm trying to get rid of my Space Marines, I have a fully proxy'd Astra Militarum army in the works, I even use other minis for their RPGs. I might buy, ironically, rulebooks, just because my gaming group is still very skittish about other game systems. GW doesn't go crowd-funding, however. Maybe I see it as a gentlemen's agreement: You get my money, but you be a good sport about making me feel implicated in the process. Unspoken, but no less extant.
The thing to remember is that DFG and Paulson are essentially garage companies. DFG has ties to WGF, but it's still a one-man operation. Custom framing, (or custom anything) is, by it's nature, a person-to-person level of business based on individual needs, wants and satisfaction. GW is a very large company, and simply could never offer that level of individual care or be able to take on feedback that Vic or DFG etc do in regards to their design process. It's a small company by many standards, but they're still a large corporation with branches in many companies. When my local GW retail outlet (before it got moved and 1-manned) had more employees than Victoria Miniatures, Paulson Games and Dreamforge Games combined then it's pretty clear that we're talking about vastly different economies of scale.
RH is an outlier, though - and that's because they're sized more like the former. I think they take criticism to heart, though - but are hurt by it. Hence they've retreated somewhat and now stay behind their moat and walls.
cincydooley wrote: I mean, I'll buy gak from them retail, but jesus. As if people weren't already enabling their irresponsible business model!
It's pretty easy to have your desires enabled if you only listen to the people telling you what you want to hear and stick your fingers in your ears for the others...
Still, I'm glad the troops got bumped back to subsequent waves. I'll cash out with spincast characters in Wave 1.
Buzzsaw wrote: I think it was Alph that mentioned the pigeon toed look: dayum, Mortaria is...
That's a little coquettish for a master assassin.
Alph and a dozen of the rest of us to boot!
Her knees are wrong. They should be more like these:
What do you folks think of the unhelmeted heads revealed in the last update?
I'm mostly interested in the iron empire ones, I like most of them but I'm not fond of lieutenant drakkan's bionic parts If you wanted the inhuman look you'd go for the helmeted head.
Then again she's the only one of them who has bionics, and the faction is supposed to be big on bionics, now I don't mind because I find that it's easier to add bionics than removing them but is anyone disappointed in this?
TheDungen wrote: What do you folks think of the unhelmeted heads revealed in the last update?
I'm mostly interested in the iron empire ones, I like most of them but I'm not fond of lieutenant drakkan's bionic parts If you wanted the inhuman look you'd go for the helmeted head.
Then again she's the only one of them who has bionics, and the faction is supposed to be big on bionics, now I don't mind because I find that it's easier to add bionics than removing them but is anyone disappointed in this?
I think the unhelmeted heads look good, but in my opinion, the whole look of the Iron Empire benefits greatly from the helmets (Drakken, I think particularly needs the helmet). I'm going all IE, and am definitely going with all helmets. Like I said, the bare heads look good, but not as good as the helmeted ones. In my opinion, of course.
The Iron Empire is supposed to be made up of mostly deformed ladies right, because of some genetic defect that also made them infertile, right? I can't quite remember the fluff, but it was something along those lines, the ugly ones had to cover their faces and fight the wars while the pretty ones were the only fertile ones and thus, breeders, or something like that. I think the standard bearer was supposed to be the only "normal" one who decided to hide her face and fight as well.
Mind, could be misremembering it, but that's what I remember the most about the Iron Empire. Though as with the not-Ratlings Lulu's, things can be rewritten.
And it's not like undead means deformed, the reason for the clothes is as follows:
"Indeed, one of the main reason most of the Iron Empire citizens always wear a respiratory mask, glasses or full helmet is as a form of social respect and politeness between the living and the undead, as the latter have no breath and a sometimes hollow gaze."
Vera Krabbenhöft is just in disguise, saying she is a disfigured undead but that an undead is like that is not the rule.
You may have a point. I feel spoiled by Dreamforge and Paulson Games. Both have asked for opinions and feedback by showing WIPs, or downright responding to personal emails and incorporating ideas. They may have coloured my impression of how to do business. Then again, my wife says that I am her "consumate salesman" at work and custom framing is eminently a feedback-based product. I don't feel that GW responds or cares much about customer feedback or community input. And to answer your question, no I don't send money GW's way much these days. I'm trying to get rid of my Space Marines, I have a fully proxy'd Astra Militarum army in the works, I even use other minis for their RPGs. I might buy, ironically, rulebooks, just because my gaming group is still very skittish about other game systems. GW doesn't go crowd-funding, however. Maybe I see it as a gentlemen's agreement: You get my money, but you be a good sport about making me feel implicated in the process. Unspoken, but no less extant.
The thing to remember is that DFG and Paulson are essentially garage companies. DFG has ties to WGF, but it's still a one-man operation. Custom framing, (or custom anything) is, by it's nature, a person-to-person level of business based on individual needs, wants and satisfaction. GW is a very large company, and simply could never offer that level of individual care or be able to take on feedback that Vic or DFG etc do in regards to their design process. It's a small company by many standards, but they're still a large corporation with branches in many companies. When my local GW retail outlet (before it got moved and 1-manned) had more employees than Victoria Miniatures, Paulson Games and Dreamforge Games combined then it's pretty clear that we're talking about vastly different economies of scale.
RH is an outlier, though - and that's because they're sized more like the former. I think they take criticism to heart, though - but are hurt by it. Hence they've retreated somewhat and now stay behind their moat and walls.
snip
It's pretty easy to have your desires enabled if you only listen to the people telling you what you want to hear and stick your fingers in your ears for the others...
Still, I'm glad the troops got bumped back to subsequent waves. I'll cash out with spincast characters in Wave 1.
snip
I agree with everything you said about the difference between GW and DFG/Paulson, but I still feel spoiled. It's nice to have companies, even garage ones, take in feedback and care about creating a community. Especially since they are garage companies, their resources are stretched even thinner, so it would be understandeable if they didn't take the time to do so. Like GW used to do. I still feel that RH would be the big winner here by fostering a lively community. Even one where opinions differ. Especially since they told us they got someone on the team just to handle media and customer relations.
I'm curious how you'll cash out without getting multiples. So far, between my co-pledge and I, we are getting a grand total of 2 minis from wave 1. 1 Yoko (me) and 1 Bernadette (him). Good thing we have a dropship, because otherwise I'd tell him to stuff it and wait.
TheDungen wrote: What do you folks think of the unhelmeted heads revealed in the last update?
I'm mostly interested in the iron empire ones, I like most of them but I'm not fond of lieutenant drakkan's bionic parts If you wanted the inhuman look you'd go for the helmeted head.
Then again she's the only one of them who has bionics, and the faction is supposed to be big on bionics, now I don't mind because I find that it's easier to add bionics than removing them but is anyone disappointed in this?
I like the unhelmeted heads very much. The unscarred faces might be contrary to RH's fluff, but for people like me who don't care one iota for RH's fluff and just want some cool models to use in a variety of games, they make the models far, far more flexible. For example, I could now see my wife wanting to use one of them as her character in the RT campaign that I really need to get off the ground.
I agree with everything you said about the difference between GW and DFG/Paulson, but I still feel spoiled. It's nice to have companies, even garage ones, take in feedback and care about creating a community. Especially since they are garage companies, their resources are stretched even thinner, so it would be understandeable if they didn't take the time to do so. Like GW used to do. I still feel that RH would be the big winner here by fostering a lively community. Even one where opinions differ. Especially since they told us they got someone on the team just to handle media and customer relations.
I'm curious how you'll cash out without getting multiples. So far, between my co-pledge and I, we are getting a grand total of 2 minis from wave 1. 1 Yoko (me) and 1 Bernadette (him). Good thing we have a dropship, because otherwise I'd tell him to stuff it and wait.
I don't disagree with you on the community thing as far as RH is concerned, but they're choosing not to do that, and it's to their detriment. I guess they're just too sensitive.
I have no idea what's actually going to be in Wave 1, but didn't they just say that they will be doing more characters and fewer troops?
BrookM wrote: Mind, could be misremembering it, but that's what I remember the most about the Iron Empire. Though as with the not-Ratlings Lulu's, things can be rewritten.
I really hope the males of the faction have something similar going on, but where the fertile men are all short, fat bald guys with glasses.
Cypher-xv wrote: Hello there. Is there word yet on when these will be available to those not in the KS?
Unfortunately there's not even a solid timeline for those of us in the KS... And I wouldn't be surprised if a couple models were available before the full/final shipments go out to KS backers.
I wasn't as much commenting on fluff as aesthetics.
What do you mean with Victoria miniatures? Are they having a kickstarter? No chance they decide to bring their range into real scale instead of heroic?
Victoria doesn't need a KS to get her products up for sale. Well, that might change later this year, but so far she's released several kick-ass modular ersatz Guard regiments and will in a few months be releasing the very first female Guard regiment:
I'm planning on getting some of those as well. I figure if I dip the ladies to the knee in hot water, it should be easy enough to point the toes at each other.
I beg to differ. Ersatz has made its way into the English language by now. Or judging from my computer's auto-co-wreck, at least the French language...
Az: They are releasing these minis in Wave 1
The Jailbirds: Blondie, Bernadette, Mimi the Radio, Yoko, Cruz, The 5 Lulus, the Freebie Lulu, Harry the Hippo
The Kurganova Shock Troops: Shashenka, Tarja, Irina Vega, Volga Potemkine, Charlie the war bulldog, Natasha
The Iron Empire: Drusilla (Kickstarter exclusive), Mortaria, Vera Krabbenhöft, Lady Hilda von Stroheim, Jinx
Some of them are KS exclusives, others are freebies, but that is only 12 heroines. I was being facetious a bit, you could cash out, but you'd get one of each, and that might be sub-optimal (but great for your psyche, as you'd be at peace, free from the wait)
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I beg to differ. Ersatz has made its way into the English language by now. Or judging from my computer's auto-co-wreck, at least the French language...
Az: They are releasing these minis in Wave 1
The Jailbirds: Blondie, Bernadette, Mimi the Radio, Yoko, Cruz, The 5 Lulus, the Freebie Lulu, Harry the Hippo
The Kurganova Shock Troops: Shashenka, Tarja, Irina Vega, Volga Potemkine, Charlie the war bulldog, Natasha
The Iron Empire: Drusilla (Kickstarter exclusive), Mortaria, Vera Krabbenhöft, Lady Hilda von Stroheim, Jinx
Some of them are KS exclusives, others are freebies, but that is only 12 heroines. I was being facetious a bit, you could cash out, but you'd get one of each, and that might be sub-optimal (but great for your psyche, as you'd be at peace, free from the wait)
Yeah I at least thought the troops of each would be in the first wave.
Cypher-xv wrote: Hello there. Is there word yet on when these will be available to those not in the KS?
Unfortunately there's not even a solid timeline for those of us in the KS... And I wouldn't be surprised if a couple models were available before the full/final shipments go out to KS backers.
It's slow going but I like what's being shown (eventually) so I shall carry on waiting
(with occasional sarcasm)
but I knew fulfilment would be a train-wreck right from the start.... Artists, known to be very slow, known to keep 'redoing' stuff, French and did I say artists
(but I suspect I'll pay extra shipping to get wave 1 stuff when it ships rather than waiting)
Yeah victoria miniatures has some really nice things it's a shame it's heroic scale or I would have gotten loads. I'm still considering getting some of her stuff despite that it'll look weird with my warzone real scale minis.
Unfortunately it's mostly the heads I want and that's the biggest difference between realscale and heroic.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.
Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.
And having an export balance rather than an import balance for a country is *generally* seen as a good thing. Again, specific cases can be built against it too. But we're going OT. If only Raging Heroes would give us something to talk about...
Sorry, was out of town for a week and didn't check Dakka! (Madness, I know!)
The balance of trade is an old, OLD bugaboo. At least 255 years when Smith wrote on it extensively, and from what I understand some hundreds of years before that. The problem lies partially in looking at the stock of goods and jobs producing them as fixed over any appreciable amount of time, near as I can tell. If we imagine that there are only X number of jobs to be had making Y goods and services, it makes sense to compete over who has what. For instance, if highschool kids can only mow lawns, and there are only 10 lawns in the neighborhood, local kids are going to be without a way to make money if kids from the next town over mow the lawns. This seems to be the basic intuition most people have.
The trouble with this intuition is that the limitation is not the number of jobs or the amount of goods to be made. The limitation is the amount of goods that are capable of being produced with a given amount of resources (people, time, stuff). There is always something to do to for other people that they are willing to pay for, it just has to be found. The amount of human needs is tiny, but our wants are infinite. The sticking points are figuring out what those needs and wants are, and sorting ourselves such that we can provide them. Part of sorting ourselves such that we can provide them is to get the lowest cost (read: resource using) providers to make something, leaving more resources to make other things. The explosion of stuff, highly esoteric and niche stuff, is largely due to being able to save resources on things we don't need to make ourselves at higher cost.
Imagine in this case that you were REALLY serious about the balance of trade, such that you only consumed goods you could produce at home. I'd die, pretty quickly, but even if my vegetable garden could support life, I would be really short on books and games, not to mention tvs and computers. There would be no way I could make anywhere near the amount of stuff I currently own, even if I had some access to the knowledge of how to do it. I would be fully employed (busy as hell) but also comparatively impoverished. As it stands, I have a huge trade deficit of a sort (if we were to use international accounting standards) with my employer (well, back before I went back to grad school; it is a little fuzzier now, but my industry job was clear). If the company I work for pays me cash for services, and I use that cash to buy stuff, I have a trade deficit, despite living comfortably within my means.
So, that was sort of a round about way to answer the "Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price" issue. It isn't the money that matters, it is the things you are willing and able to do for other people that generates value. Fortunately for our species, part of what we value is variety, so people don't generally all own the same pieces of art, or the same cloths and books and movies, or miniatures. Of course that leaves open the question of where unemployment comes from. The answer there is "those things that prevent people from doing that which generates value." Along with a dash of "incentivizing unemployment." There are many rules that stop people from starting a business, changing jobs or hiring new people. Mind bogglingly many, even for just hiring someone to demold resin models (I have checked for personal planning). It takes >1200 hours of class time to become licensed to cut hair in Pennsylvania. There are natural issues too, such as say an iron mine drying out and the local miners losing jobs, but generally those are small bumps over time compared to the structural, unemployment caused by various rules and regulations.
Anyway, tl;dr : it isn't the Chinese or anyone else putting people out of jobs, it is that those people can't be profitably employed for some reason or another. Even if the Chinese stopped making cheap models, you would just see fewer, more expensive models being made rather than the same number being made by Americans at higher wages. You can't become rich by not trading, you become rich by doing what you do best for other people and letting other people do what they do best for you.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: " [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "
Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.
Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.
I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.
Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.
And having an export balance rather than an import balance for a country is *generally* seen as a good thing. Again, specific cases can be built against it too. But we're going OT. If only Raging Heroes would give us something to talk about...
Sorry, was out of town for a week and didn't check Dakka! (Madness, I know!)
The balance of trade is an old, OLD bugaboo. At least 255 years when Smith wrote on it extensively, and from what I understand some hundreds of years before that. The problem lies partially in looking at the stock of goods and jobs producing them as fixed over any appreciable amount of time, near as I can tell. If we imagine that there are only X number of jobs to be had making Y goods and services, it makes sense to compete over who has what. For instance, if highschool kids can only mow lawns, and there are only 10 lawns in the neighborhood, local kids are going to be without a way to make money if kids from the next town over mow the lawns. This seems to be the basic intuition most people have.
The trouble with this intuition is that the limitation is not the number of jobs or the amount of goods to be made. The limitation is the amount of goods that are capable of being produced with a given amount of resources (people, time, stuff). There is always something to do to for other people that they are willing to pay for, it just has to be found. The amount of human needs is tiny, but our wants are infinite. The sticking points are figuring out what those needs and wants are, and sorting ourselves such that we can provide them. Part of sorting ourselves such that we can provide them is to get the lowest cost (read: resource using) providers to make something, leaving more resources to make other things. The explosion of stuff, highly esoteric and niche stuff, is largely due to being able to save resources on things we don't need to make ourselves at higher cost.
Imagine in this case that you were REALLY serious about the balance of trade, such that you only consumed goods you could produce at home. I'd die, pretty quickly, but even if my vegetable garden could support life, I would be really short on books and games, not to mention tvs and computers. There would be no way I could make anywhere near the amount of stuff I currently own, even if I had some access to the knowledge of how to do it. I would be fully employed (busy as hell) but also comparatively impoverished. As it stands, I have a huge trade deficit of a sort (if we were to use international accounting standards) with my employer (well, back before I went back to grad school; it is a little fuzzier now, but my industry job was clear). If the company I work for pays me cash for services, and I use that cash to buy stuff, I have a trade deficit, despite living comfortably within my means.
So, that was sort of a round about way to answer the "Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price" issue. It isn't the money that matters, it is the things you are willing and able to do for other people that generates value. Fortunately for our species, part of what we value is variety, so people don't generally all own the same pieces of art, or the same cloths and books and movies, or miniatures. Of course that leaves open the question of where unemployment comes from. The answer there is "those things that prevent people from doing that which generates value." Along with a dash of "incentivizing unemployment." There are many rules that stop people from starting a business, changing jobs or hiring new people. Mind bogglingly many, even for just hiring someone to demold resin models (I have checked for personal planning). It takes >1200 hours of class time to become licensed to cut hair in Pennsylvania. There are natural issues too, such as say an iron mine drying out and the local miners losing jobs, but generally those are small bumps over time compared to the structural, unemployment caused by various rules and regulations.
Anyway, tl;dr : it isn't the Chinese or anyone else putting people out of jobs, it is that those people can't be profitably employed for some reason or another. Even if the Chinese stopped making cheap models, you would just see fewer, more expensive models being made rather than the same number being made by Americans at higher wages. You can't become rich by not trading, you become rich by doing what you do best for other people and letting other people do what they do best for you.
Oh goodie, just what this thread needed, Hayekian Fantasy Economics.
Any word can be an English word. You like "tacos"? How about "Tsunami"? "Zeitgeist"? "Deja vu"? They're all English words if you use them enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: I'm planning on getting some of those as well. I figure if I dip the ladies to the knee in hot water, it should be easy enough to point the toes at each other.
Any word can be an English word. You like "tacos"? How about "Tsunami"? "Zeitgeist"? "Deja vu"? They're all English words if you use them enough.
Or as James Nicoll put it:
James Nicoll wrote:The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary.
However, I still draw the line at "literally" meaning "figuratively".
It depends on if the speaker is using the ironic voice at the time.
For example, if someone says something mildly ignorant in your group of friends, you would be correct to say, "That is literally the stupidest thing I've ever heard in the history of all things ever."
However, if someone said something genuinely stupid, the statement above would forfeit grammatical legitimacy. English is a confusing language that way.
Tell me about it. I still struggle after speaking it (as a non-native) for 32 years.
Boys and girls, I really think we should take the macro-economic discussion to OT, or some such. I have a feeling some might get into a heated discussion... or name calling. Just my 5¢.
Nah, it's fine. I have papers to write and models to make anyway Just hard to resist answering a question; why I got into academia and teaching after all!
Personally, I'm a big fan of the silent film star heads than the 'not-nazi' heads. I've never been a big fan of the gas-masky WWII look, but these new heads have actually made me consider switching several of my picks. (Definitely going to be switching Lt Parker out for one of the Iron Empire girls.)
In their own unit, you're right. Mixing them comes with a whole other set of problems though as the styles might not fit. I thought I would use my Kurganovas as officers for my Eisenkern... but they are so different that it really makes them stand out.
If anything, the sisters are taller than the other models I plan on using for my Navy army. The way I see it, they're void born, thus thinner and taller due to gravity or some fancy type of bs.
Alpharius wrote: Scale issues could be a major stumbling block here still, couldn't they?
Unless you go 'full on RH' for a 'counts as' army?
Coming from someone who did plan on mixing and matching an IG army, the pics I've seen show them to be a little different in stature from a basic guardsman, but not so much that it would be ludicrous.
Alpharius wrote: Scale issues could be a major stumbling block here still, couldn't they?
Unless you go 'full on RH' for a 'counts as' army?
Coming from someone who did plan on mixing and matching an IG army, the pics I've seen show them to be a little different in stature from a basic guardsman, but not so much that it would be ludicrous.
No definitely. If anything it'll introduce a welcome sense of diversity. Egad, I know. The look simply amazing compared to GW's older sculpts.
I'm sorry but the fact that GW still use heroic proportions is no longer a viable reason to keep using heroic proportions. The industry is moving away from that and in time even gw will have to change with the times.
TheDungen wrote: I'm sorry but the fact that GW still use heroic proportions is no longer a viable reason to keep using heroic proportions. The industry is moving away from that and in time even gw will have to change with the times.
I kind of like heroic scale, honestly. I'm not opposed to it. More realistic scales make the details of the model harder to pick out from a table-length perspective, which is how I'm viewing most models. If we're going to select a sculpting style based on what presentation it looks best in, I think we should focus on the tabletop rather than the showcase, since we're going to be looking at the models on the tabletop with far greater frequency. That's just my thought on it, though.
TheDungen wrote: I'm sorry but the fact that GW still use heroic proportions is no longer a viable reason to keep using heroic proportions. The industry is moving away from that and in time even gw will have to change with the times.
I kind of like heroic scale, honestly. I'm not opposed to it. More realistic scales make the details of the model harder to pick out from a table-length perspective, which is how I'm viewing most models. If we're going to select a sculpting style based on what presentation it looks best in, I think we should focus on the tabletop rather than the showcase, since we're going to be looking at the models on the tabletop with far greater frequency. That's just my thought on it, though.
Man, I wish I was seeing my models on the table top more than I saw them on the display shelves :(
I think GW could actually be clever and move to a true scale with their models. How many people would rebuy plastic true scale marines if they were released? My guess is plenty. A shift across the entire line slowly would let them release model kits every few months for whatever armies they felt like and sell new models to long time players.
Maybe not, but considering how well makers of counts as models do, it can't be too unreasonable.
Alpharius wrote: Scale issues could be a major stumbling block here still, couldn't they?
Unless you go 'full on RH' for a 'counts as' army?
Coming from someone who did plan on mixing and matching an IG army, the pics I've seen show them to be a little different in stature from a basic guardsman, but not so much that it would be ludicrous.
No definitely. If anything it'll introduce a welcome sense of diversity. Egad, I know. The look simply amazing compared to GW's older sculpts.
Honestly, at this point I'm mainly going to just be painting these things, but I do hold out some hope for using the heroes (maybe the IE) in the future DFG game. Have you done any scale shots with the plastic Eisenkern and RH figures?
Although, I suppose if you have any RH figures, they... won't be in identical scale because of material changes? I dunno anymore...
I could do an RH Kurganova and a female Eisenkern (Ada) side by side pic, but that would be exposing the horrible paint job on Kurganova that I need to strip (zing!).
edit: The height seems fine, and when you include all the armour on the Eisenkern their "chunkier" appearance seems fine to me.
Wehrkind wrote: How many people would rebuy plastic true scale marines if they were released?
There aren't many things that would make me consider dropping my SM army, but this is one of them. I'm not sure if it's that I just don't like truescale marines in general, or if I just don't like most of the truescale conversions I see, but I'm just not a fan of the concept, at least insofar as I've seen it done.
Wehrkind wrote: How many people would rebuy plastic true scale marines if they were released?
There aren't many things that would make me consider dropping my SM army, but this is one of them. I'm not sure if it's that I just don't like truescale marines in general, or if I just don't like most of the truescale conversions I see, but I'm just not a fan of the concept, at least insofar as I've seen it done.
Perhaps I should have said 'Proper, non-heroic scale' ? Whatever it takes to not have their hands the size of volley balls while standing as tall as guardsmen. Regular marines look pretty decent next to normal 28mm scale models, but if GW wants to stick to the 32mm thing, they need to be a bit bigger in some dimensions and not others.
Still though, I think that properly scaled figures would be a good move for GW that would require only their core competency: model production. Lots of folks complain about gorilla hands etc. Fixing that is pretty easy, probably easier than writing new rules, assuming they are still not thinking of themselves as a rules company.
Wehrkind wrote: How many people would rebuy plastic true scale marines if they were released?
There aren't many things that would make me consider dropping my SM army, but this is one of them. I'm not sure if it's that I just don't like truescale marines in general, or if I just don't like most of the truescale conversions I see, but I'm just not a fan of the concept, at least insofar as I've seen it done.
Perhaps I should have said 'Proper, non-heroic scale' ? Whatever it takes to not have their hands the size of volley balls while standing as tall as guardsmen. Regular marines look pretty decent next to normal 28mm scale models, but if GW wants to stick to the 32mm thing, they need to be a bit bigger in some dimensions and not others.
Still though, I think that properly scaled figures would be a good move for GW that would require only their core competency: model production. Lots of folks complain about gorilla hands etc. Fixing that is pretty easy, probably easier than writing new rules, assuming they are still not thinking of themselves as a rules company.
BrookM wrote: Victoria doesn't need a KS to get her products up for sale. Well, that might change later this year, but so far she's released several kick-ass modular ersatz Guard regiments and will in a few months be releasing the very first female Guard regiment:
Ohh very nice. Lets just hope that the nazi lawyer's at GW doesn't shut it down.
fox-light713 wrote: Ohh very nice. Lets just hope that the nazi lawyer's at GW doesn't shut it down.
Stupid, that's just stupid.
Agreed. What did that contribute to the conversation about the TGG Kickstarter or RH? There's a separate thread for Victoria's (quite stellar) work that this could have been posted to.
Now quick, before we get off topic, someone post a delicious gif.
I keep hoping that we're at the 80% threshold for the first wave, wouldn't that be..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, come to think, it would be better to just outright state that so far, 80% of this all still needs to be done.
fox-light713 wrote: Ohh very nice. Lets just hope that the nazi lawyer's at GW doesn't shut it down.
Stupid, that's just stupid.
Agreed. What did that contribute to the conversation about the TGG Kickstarter or RH? There's a separate thread for Victoria's (quite stellar) work that this could have been posted to.
Now quick, before we get off topic, someone post a delicious gif.
It's a joke. The amount of smack-talk in this thread has been relentless from the get-go. Relentless. Just scan back over the last few pages. I shudder to think how much of this thread is repeated 'delicious' gifs, humorously offensive french comments, and 80% jokes. (Probably...80%?)
- trust me it's worth it, check in french timeline and you will feel better
