They also need to roll a d6 before strafing or bombing runs with a roll of a "1" meaning they accidentally fire upon the closest friendly unit to the original target point.
All my fliers are British, does that mean they'll pass that test automatically?
Hollismason wrote: Is Sacrifice 1 or 3 Warp Charges, cause seriously the scans I've seen look like theres no way it's a 1.
It's 3
Have people actually read the book then? How is it 3 Warp Charges but a ML2 can cast it according to White Dwarf.
According to White Dwarf we know
It can be cast by Pink Horrors, who can summon Heralds who are a maximum Level of 2 if summoned, but according to the book Heralds can summon Pink Horrors which is Warp Charge 3.
So Mastery Level 2 can cast a Warp Charge 3 spell.
So we know
Mastery Level does not seem to affect what level of Psychic Power you can cast.... it's possible it affects it's success. and I think I know how it works.
If you cast a spell higher than your mastery level you get a modifier to cast it. That's the only explanation.
Also, pink horrors can apparently summon Blood thirsters.
Perfect Organism wrote: Can anyone who has a copy of the new WD confirm the warp charge costs for Sacrifice and the other powers on the right side of the page? The only image I've seen is too blurry to be sure.
Remember that any roll of doubles will perils on the Malefic powers unless the psyker is chaos (daemons I presume)
What ISNT clear yet from these descriptions is whether you need to deny 1 warp charge or all 3 to block the power. I think if it works like attack/defense dice a'la heroscape, then you'd subtract "blocks" from "successes" to see if the power goes off -- all while simultaneously checking for perils. But that last bit is speculation.
OK, looks like the tzeentch herald summoning factory might actually work. That's unpleasant.
Not only does it work apparently Mastery Level isn't tied to what level of Spell you can actually cast, although I will go ahead and say a modifier applies to your success if the Warp Charge is higher than your level of Mastery. I'd bet anything on that rule.
They also need to roll a d6 before strafing or bombing runs with a roll of a "1" meaning they accidentally fire upon the closest friendly unit to the original target point.
All my fliers are British, does that mean they'll pass that test automatically?
Only if your ground forces contain a character with the semaphore upgrade.
Actually, this is one of our flyer house rules and it can be nullified if there is a model equipped with a "targeter" , markerlight or some other fluffy reason for a friendly unit with los to the target point to act as spotters.
For the Eldar it is having a unit of swooping hawks with line of sight to the target point.
Of course only played these rules a couple of times before quitting the pure drudgery that has been 6th ed.
Am currently working on stream-lined 5th ed mod with another dakkite that is doing most of the authoring. We are trying to add the good of 6th(overwatch, precision shots and look out sir) and remove the worst of 5th(wound allocation, mission choices, deployment and points scoring). It also caps the foc at 1 hq, 2elite, 4 troops, 2 FA and 2 HS. This helps keep the model count within reason so the board doesn't become a parking lot.
If you can't tell, we're fans of having a simple core ruleset that allows the players to modify later to add complexity. These modifications can be home-brewed or GW supplements. Just having a simple core reduces the amount of arguing and makes for more enjoyable gameplay.
The mere act of changing one rule, this is in regards to the FMC and grounding checks, being a massive game changer for Tyranids is a testament to how bad that book is and doesn't make this rule change any worse.
Grounding check after every wound would be good, or kept the same... Why? I can shoot transports with anti-tank weaponry until I crack them and the shoot the meaty bits same shooting phase. Why then can I not rain a hailstorm of bullets at a FMC causing it to crash and then fire the appropriate anti-tank weaponry at it to kill it?
Unless we're missing something on how hard to hit works or how to acquire skyfire outside of "bring your own terrain" then this rules change makes FMC spam even more of a douche list. And that's the wrong way to go because then it's a case of telling every Nids player "no, thanks" when they ask for a game. And that's two people who don't get to play.
Leth wrote: Not sure if confirmed or not but someone said that casting works like this.
You can roll as many dice as you want. You have to roll more 4+s than the warp charge of the power.
So warp charge two power requires two 4+s on your dice roll.
So a warp charge 3 power would require 6+ dice to reliably cast.
Last I saw you could only cast powers with dice = to your mastery level + 1.
The amount of assumptions being made in this thread are getting silly based on the incomplete information we have.
First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it . We also don't have anything solid about how denying works either which is a huge part of how this system will work. No one is going to be spamming summons if only the Greater Daemons get access to them or Lvl 4 Eldrad is getting +4 to deny and deny works on blessings etc (then the psychic phase will be a write off for everyone).
Also while a single grounding test per turn might seem like a huge buff for flying MCs (i.e the Daemon Flying Circus is game breakingly good with this rule) we also don't know if the test is the same. It could well be a 6+ to stay flying now, or be modified by the strength of what hit you (unlikely but would make sense, its tougher to stay in the air if a missile hits you that if someone throws a rock at you). Similarly we don't know how firing at them works now, you may not need Skyfire to hit them or Skyfire may be thrown out like candy etc etc.
Everyone needs to realise that this edition is not a slight tweak to the rules by any stretch, it is not the 6.5 edition that was often suggested when rumours about a new edition started surfacing - this is looking like the changes will be as big as the 5th-6th changeover.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: So, if you take all powers from one discipline, you get to ADD the Primaris. Therefore, Level 1 Psykers would get two powers.
However, Chaos Sorcerors must take from their god discipline but no more than half. So we can't ever get the free extra power?
I don't think this has been clariffied, if every psyker get's the primaris for free or if it takes over one of your allowed powers or it's the only way to access the primaris power etc.. have to wait I guess!
Maybe they are finally planning on letting more units get access to skyfire. I'm kinda tired of ally less Eldar folding like paper swans to one or two flyers.
TheKbob wrote: The mere act of changing one rule, this is in regards to the FMC and grounding checks, being a massive game changer for Tyranids is a testament to how bad that book is and doesn't make this rule change any worse.
"Minor" tweaks to small rules always have massive implications.
Yeah, Warp Charge 3 powers are going to be very difficult to use.
Six dice gives you a 66% chance of success, but a 26% chance of getting perils of the warp. Seven dice gives you 77% chance, but a 33% chance of perils. Beyond seven dice it gets less efficient and more risky.
Warp charge 1 powers, on the other hand, are a piece of cake. With three or four dice it's almost a sure thing. Level 3 Tzeentch heralds can easily get that many dice for casting sacrifice each turn.
Start with ten ML 3 heralds. On average, four will know Sacrifice. All of them will easily be able to cast it every turn. Assume one gets denied and you still get three new ML 2 heralds, with a 67% chance at least one of them will know Sacrifice too. Next turn, you probably get four heralds, with a 77% chance at least one has sacrifice. By turn 4, you could easily have your ten original heralds and 19 ML 2 Heralds, giving you 68 warp charge dice for the next turn.
Turn five, you can summon tenfive units of useful daemons.
Turn six, you move all of those deamons to assault the enemy or capture objectives.
So, for around 1,000 points in heralds, you end up with an extra 2,000 1,500 or so points of units at the end of the game. Equivalent to about a 25% 20% return on investment per turn. Of course, half those points are made up of heralds which are fairly useless apart from their ability to generate troops, so in practice you probably want to start spawning useful units a lot sooner, which means the investment is a bit less efficient.
The kicker is, you also get plenty of warp charge dice left over to cast witchfire powers, so your heralds are actually killing stuff as well as spawning more daemons. Throwing a couple of dice at a WC 1 witchfire gets you a 75% chance of firing it. About 70% of your ML 3 heralds and 56% of the ML ones will know one of the malefic witchfire powers. So you start off with about five witchfire shots and get maybe one extra per turn. Kill a couple of space marines with those and it's another 3% return on the investment. Kill twenty orks and it's another 12%.
It's not an all-powerful build by itself. There are other units which can kill stuff a lot quicker than this one can spawn them. Combined with screamerstar, however, I think it's pretty much unquestionably the strongest build that 40k has ever seen EDIT: unless there are things we haven't seen yet which nerf it, which seems quite possible with santic daemonology.
EDIT: messed up the math of the final summoning, by not taking potential failures and deny the witch into account.
Six dice gives you a 66% chance of success, but a 26% chance of getting perils of the warp. Seven dice gives you 77% chance, but a 33% chance of perils. Beyond seven dice it gets less efficient and more risky.
Warp charge 1 powers, on the other hand, are a piece of cake. With three or four dice it's almost a sure thing. Level 3 Tzeentch heralds can easily get that many dice for casting sacrifice each turn.
Start with ten ML 3 heralds. On average, four will know Sacrifice. All of them will easily be able to cast it every turn. Assume one gets denied and you still get three new ML 2 heralds, with a 67% chance at least one of them will know Sacrifice too. Next turn, you probably get four heralds, with a 77% chance at least one has sacrifice. By turn 4, you could easily have your ten original heralds and 19 ML 2 Heralds, giving you 68 warp charge dice for the next turn.
Turn five, you can summon ten units of useful daemons.
Turn six, you move all of those deamons to assault the enemy or capture objectives.
So, for around 1,000 points in heralds, you end up with an extra 2,000 or so points of units at the end of the game. Equivalent to about a 25% return on investment per turn. Of course, half those points are made up of heralds which are fairly useless apart from their ability to generate troops, so in practice you probably want to start spawning useful units a lot sooner, which means the investment is a bit less efficient.
The kicker is, you also get plenty of warp charge dice left over to cast witchfire powers, so your heralds are actually killing stuff as well as spawning more daemons. Throwing a couple of dice at a WC 1 witchfire gets you a 75% chance of firing it. About 70% of your ML 3 heralds and 56% of the ML ones will know one of the malefic witchfire powers. So you start off with about five witchfire shots and get maybe one extra per turn. Kill a couple of space marines with those and it's another 3% return on the investment. Kill twenty orks and it's another 12%.
It's not an all-powerful build by itself. There are other units which can kill stuff a lot quicker than this one can spawn them. Combined with screamerstar, however, I think it's pretty much unquestionably the strongest build that 40k has ever seen.
Since we are speculating based only on what we currently know, it behooves me to remind you that conjured units may never be scoring as per the current BRB. So with nothing currently telling us any of that has changed, risking all those heralds to perils as well as not being able to claim objectives, I seriously doubt this will become a list in 7th.
Powerguy wrote: First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it .
The White Dwarf excerpt posted some time ago said everyone except Tyranids could use it.
tetrisphreak wrote: In the one that comes out May 17 the article on daemonology actually mentions summoning daemons by daemons as a tactic.
Is this the first recorded case of a company using the cost of models as a balancing factor? I mean you do after all have to actually own a horde of daemons to actually summon them.
Powerguy wrote: First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it .
The White Dwarf excerpt posted some time ago said everyone except Tyranids could use it.
Sorry that wasn't very clear, my point was that it says Daemons != Heralds. There are already heaps of instances of psykers within a codex having access to different disciplines, Eldar get Divination on Farseers but not on Warlocks so its definitely possible that only some of the Daemons get access to the lore.
Sigvatr wrote: Wow, so GW was serious about IoM willing to summon demons from the warp.
Like...wow. Really. That's just...wow. That's worse than the 5th Necron fluff. Holy crap. So, "forge your narrative" now means "feth everything, nobody wants that lore anyway!"? Well played GW.
The only way I can see the IoM summoning daemons is if it was a Radical Inquisitor using Chaos-based weaponry, in which would kind of make sense but more often or not the Inquisitor falls to Chaos.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So wait, whats the new rumor regarding FMCs that people are crying cheese about? I can't find it...
Only one grounding check at the end of the phase and only if wounded not just hit. And it was an entry in the newest White Dwarf so more than just a rumor.
Powerguy wrote: First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it .
The White Dwarf excerpt posted some time ago said everyone except Tyranids could use it.
As I recall, everyone gets access to demonology, but there are two tables. I assume that most/all armies will only get access to one of the two tables.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So wait, whats the new rumor regarding FMCs that people are crying cheese about? I can't find it...
Grounding tests being taken once per turn, rather than every time they get shot.
Oh damn. Can't say I don't approve of this. Don't really see how boltgun/flashlight fire was supposed to be enough to make a 7 ton Bloodthirster/Hive Tyrant come crashing to the gound.
Hopefully the rumors about Snapfire being buffed will be enough to please the non-FMC armies.
Sigvatr wrote: Wow, so GW was serious about IoM willing to summon demons from the warp.
Like...wow. Really. That's just...wow. That's worse than the 5th Necron fluff. Holy crap. So, "forge your narrative" now means "feth everything, nobody wants that lore anyway!"? Well played GW.
The only way I can see the IoM summoning daemons is if it was a Radical Inquisitor using Chaos-based weaponry, in which would kind of make sense but more often or not the Inquisitor falls to Chaos.
But this....is just a travesty.
I'm not really a fan of this either but couldn't it just be an accident? In the Inquisitors desperation to win a battle he loses control of his power tearing a hole in the warp in which daemons spew out of. It doesn't have to be a conscious effort to summon a daemon by the inquisitor...
I eagerly await reports of people taking demonology powers, then rolling tons of doubles and taking horrible, horrible Perils
Though also awaiting more information on what leadership modifiers vs psyker powers do now since Psyker powers arent leadership tests anymore (ex. Shadows, Aegis, etc)
Powerguy wrote: First off while it is certainly reasonable to assume that Daemons have access to this new summoning lore we have absolutely no confirmation who can use it .
The White Dwarf excerpt posted some time ago said everyone except Tyranids could use it.
As I recall, everyone gets access to demonology, but there are two tables. I assume that most/all armies will only get access to one of the two tables.
The White Dwarf specifically mentions Wyrdvanes being able to summon demons. So Imperial Guard get them.
Also, from what I understand it's only a perils if you roll 2 6s unless you are trying to summon demons and are not a demon then it's any doubles. Also, we still have not found out what exactly the rules are for stopping psychic powers people know they can stop them but how and what the role is is kind of unclear.
Mainly because the odds are in your favor of dispelling Psykers abilities or at least making them stop completely so who knows how that will work.
OK, I've been grinding the numbers on using Sacrifice to get HoT for more warp charge vs. simply using Summon, Incursion and Possession to get useful units ASAP.
Long story short, it's probably slightly better just to summon stuff you need rather than running a daemon factory. The daemon factory only wins out if you get into turn six and then it's only barely better.
Summoning Daemons is still better than most Witchfire powers, but that isn't saying much.
It's difficult to compare them to blessings, but I think that most blessings increase the survivability or killing power of a unit by about 50% and usually only need WC 1. So, two good psykers can double the effectiveness of your best unit (probably worth several hundred points) or summon a few hundred points worth of daemons over the course of a battle. I'd say so long as you've got a 300+ point unit to buff, it's better to concentrate on blessings.
Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.
Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.
Wakshaani wrote: Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.
Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.
Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.
Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.
With the demonology haven't we only seen the maelific side of things? Any info about the Santic side, it atleast sounds abit lest heretical. Or am I just missing something?
Wakshaani wrote: Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.
Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.
Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.
Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.
Definitely agree with the boost.
You wont see Tyranids or Chaos players take more flyers than they all ready would of though.
And apparently there might be a benefit to snap shots in the new rules so everything might even out anyway...
agreed. flyrants/crones already pretty much best units in the codex. nothing changed there, no need for jimmies to be rustled. folks were already basically maxing them if they were serious anyway.
I like the idea of daemonology in principle.... Though, taking a 1500pt Army, then being able to add to it with more troops in game... There's imbalance and then there is taking it to whole new levels.
I also really don't like the idea of the imperium purposely summoning daemons, it really is so against the fluff it is untrue, now if daemons were summoned as the consequence of perils of the warp and went to the opposing player, and always counted as 'come the apocalypse' then yeah, I like that idea, but the idea of space marine librarians sacrifycing themselves to khorne, when battling khorne daemons? They could have at least made it interesting, with different creatures than those of the big 4... 'Imperial daemons' or 'Eldar daemons' or 'Ork daemons'
Wakshaani wrote: Not happy about the changes to firing at FMCs, simply because it makes a grounding test at the end of the phase, once. Previously, it was after each volley of fire. Thus, I could pepper a flying target with light fire, like basic boltguns, then once the target's down, switch to heavy guns, like lascanon, that I wouldn't want to waste on a 6+ shot.
Now, they go down, but you get *zero* time to shoot more at them before they're up again, defeating the entire purpose.
Flying critters get a HUGE boost there.
Yup, expect them to be spammed mercilessly. There won't be any reason *not* to take a flying MC if given the choice over most other choices.
I'm not getting too excited/worried about all the new Daemonology Conjuration powers yet. This is speculation, but given the heavy focus on summoning type powers in the Malefic discipline, I'd be very surprised if there weren't any opposing Banishment type powers in the Santic discipline.
Tonberry7 wrote: I'm not getting too excited/worried about all the new Daemonology Conjuration powers yet. This is speculation, but given the heavy focus on summoning type powers in the Malefic discipline, I'd be very surprised if there weren't any opposing Banishment type powers in the Santic discipline.
And here's the new discipline. Roll a D3 on the following table:
Banishing (primaris) WC 1
You may buy any number of demon models from the store. For each demon model purchased you may cancel one opposing summoned demon and remove it as a casualty.
Emperor's Intervention WC 1
You may buy any number of GK models and immediately deploy them. Treat them as battle brothers as long as opposing demon models are on the table.
Ever-changing Warp WC 2
Update your opponent's demon codex. Unless they immediately buy a new copy ($75) from the store all summoned demon models in their army are immediately removed as casualties.
Mass Unsummoning WC 3
Immediately remove all opposing summoned demon models as casualties. Your opponent may purchase an equal number of new demon models from the store and immediately deploy them.
Some stuff from /tg/ that mostly lines up with other rumours / WD snippets:
>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.
>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.
>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games. Oh, and as a bonus, forged armies get to reroll their warlord trait if desired.
>Unsure of the rest of the damage chart changes, but explodes only happens on a 7+ now.
>You can ally with "come the apoc" now. Penalties include not being allowed within 12 in and not being able to deploy together
>Jink saves are better, but universally force snap shots next turn.
>FMC now only have to make one grounding test a shooting phase, and only if wounded. No more laser pointer crashes. Big buff for flying circus.
>Oh, and apparently snap fire has been changed to a -2BS modifier instead of the flat BS1
xttz wrote: Some stuff from /tg/ that mostly lines up with other rumours / WD snippets:
>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.
>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.
>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games. Oh, and as a bonus, forged armies get to reroll their warlord trait if desired.
>Unsure of the rest of the damage chart changes, but explodes only happens on a 7+ now.
>You can ally with "come the apoc" now. Penalties include not being allowed within 12 in and not being able to deploy together
>Jink saves are better, but universally force snap shots next turn.
>FMC now only have to make one grounding test a shooting phase, and only if wounded. No more laser pointer crashes. Big buff for flying circus.
>Oh, and apparently snap fire has been changed to a -2BS modifier instead of the flat BS1
Seems like a good buff. Though I have to wonder for SM armies, does this make Flak Missiles even more useless (I didn't think that was possible)?
That and Archons and Vindicare Assassins just become terrifying to assault.
xttz wrote: >Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.
This doesn't even make any sense. If cover and invulnerable saves are allowed then all you've got is an AP 2 weapon. Why would you ever take a D-weapon when you can take things like STR 10 AP 2 guns with a bigger template?
>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.
This is a HUGE difference if it really is all units, since that means vehicles now score.
>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games.
Not a surprise. The rulebook pages GW previewed include a statement that you have to have permission/agreement to use a point limit (I guess the alternative is "just put some models on the table"), so it seems like everything now requires you and your opponent to agree on how to use it.
The snap fire change has a lot of interesting implications if true:
It balances out the grounding test change for FMCs nicely, as most races will find it easier to get hits and therefore wounds.
Armies with poor Skyfire options (Sisters!) can at least use BS4+ units for better results. Dual-devourer Walkrants just got twice as effective.
If Overwatch fire is really allowed at BS2+, assault units could be in trouble without further changes. I wouldn't be surprised if assault grenades interfered with Overwatch in some way now.
I can't express how much I'm relieved by the change to the Vehicle Damage chart. I've grown weary of my Predators exploding the moment somebody looks at them funny.
Each time a Trygon Prime, Dakkafex or Dakka Flyrant shoots at my tank's side/rear armour, they explode. No matter the low strength of the attacks or potential cover/invulnerable saves to defend from them, my friend has rolled 6s so many times that the other penetration results may as well not exist to me. But not anymore!
I'm somewhat worried by the change to grounding tests, but if Snap Shots get an improvement, this might balance out in the end.
I assume the third video will be released later today?
xttz wrote: The snap fire change has a lot of interesting implications if true:
It balances out the grounding test change for FMCs nicely, as most races will find it easier to get hits and therefore wounds.
Armies with poor Skyfire options (Sisters!) can at least use BS4+ units for better results. Dual-devourer Walkrants just got twice as effective.
If Overwatch fire is really allowed at BS2+, assault units could be in trouble without further changes. I wouldn't be surprised if assault grenades interfered with Overwatch in some way now.
If snap shots are now not BS1 anymore, it's not balancing FMCs at all, it's an overall nerf imo.
And as for overwatch, they needed to give assault units a bit of a boost, not punish them further.
Trying to get that munitorum edition on Friday night\sat morning will be fun!...I assume about £200 and im a collectors ed whore, but I don't want the usual faffing about of mashing away at the refresh button and furiously typing in my card details!
Apart from the issues I have with unbound, (although the requirement to gain permission is a recognition of the issues it may cause) im really liking the new edition to be honest.
Love the way its 3 books split although covers could be better. That collectors edition one is b-e-a-utiful.
Really should turn my chaos into word bearers, time to get a sorceror.
Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
Assuming Conjuration powers stay the same as they are in 6th (yes, rules for conjurations do exist in 6th, it's just that GW never made any powers to use the rules...) then the Summoning powers aren't too bad. Sure, it is a new squad for 0 points but it enters via deepstrike; scatter, mishaps and all and they never count as scoring.
So all daemons without shooting attacks (so basically all the non Tz options) have to sit tight for a turn and hope they don't die.
Also no dropping scoring units last turn.
Not saying it isn't powerful, but it isn't as powerful as some people are saying/thinking.
Again, this is assuming Conjurations stay the same in 7th, if not then who knows how it play out.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I like the idea of daemonology in principle.... Though, taking a 1500pt Army, then being able to add to it with more troops in game... There's imbalance and then there is taking it to whole new levels.
I also really don't like the idea of the imperium purposely summoning daemons, it really is so against the fluff it is untrue, now if daemons were summoned as the consequence of perils of the warp and went to the opposing player, and always counted as 'come the apocalypse' then yeah, I like that idea, but the idea of space marine librarians sacrifycing themselves to khorne, when battling khorne daemons? They could have at least made it interesting, with different creatures than those of the big 4... 'Imperial daemons' or 'Eldar daemons' or 'Ork daemons'
Assuming Orks have access to this, I fully intend to make myself Tuska and some of his Psy Nobz to use for "counts as" stuff.
Rick_1138 wrote: Trying to get that munitorum edition on Friday night\sat morning will be fun!...I assume about £200 and im a collectors ed whore, but I don't want the usual faffing about of mashing away at the refresh button and furiously typing in my card details!
I would be very surprised if they go that fast. Considering it's only been two years since the last edition, and will probably be only two years to the next one, I don't imagine too many are willing to plunk down $340 US for a set of rules/books that will be dust-collectors in 24 months.
Overall I am pretty excited. However, the latest rumor on D Weapons make little sense when you compare the cost of a model. If cover and inv saves are allowed unless you roll a 6 to wound, things like the Revenant are very much overpriced.
Rick_1138 wrote: Trying to get that munitorum edition on Friday night\sat morning will be fun!...I assume about £200 and im a collectors ed whore, but I don't want the usual faffing about of mashing away at the refresh button and furiously typing in my card details!
I would be very surprised if they go that fast. Considering it's only been two years since the last edition, and will probably be only two years to the next one, I don't imagine too many are willing to plunk down $340 US for a set of rules/books that will be dust-collectors in 24 months.
I think it will come down to the fact it is a lot more limited than last time, which was about 4000 worldwide, and they usually do well, look at the apocalypse collectors edition. However the space marine super fancy collectors edition is still available at £150!!!! oddly, no one is buying!
However rule books tend to go, and we have no idea if this edition change after 2 years is going to be the norm, or they felt the game had too many issues, too many arms and legs with expansion books and took the decision now to combine it all and this edition may last another 4 years.
we simply don't know, however from what I am reading so far, more 2nd edition, more fun!
Seems like I might have to ally in a vindicare assassin as my anti-air. Though if they change skyfire maybe I can use my hydras again. Interested so far.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This thread grows quicker than something that completes my analogy. Does anyone have a summary since the last video?
Er let me see if I remember:
- leaked most of this coming Sat's WD - details on new malefic daemonology and the way psychic phase works
- details on new BRB - 3 volumes (fluff, art/mans, rules) sold as a set for 50 quid
- MCs take max 1 grounding test per phase
- rumours about changes to vehicle damage table (net vehicle buff) and snap fire (net flyer/assault nerf)
Until its all out there is little I can say about what this version will be like to play, however I do wonder if the ebook versions will be sold as three separate books, as that will at least make just the rules within the realms of a price I may be willing to pay, if I wont go as far as saying acceptable.
PS £200 or so for a limited edition has gone beyond the realms of parody and into insanity, especially as it could be valid for just two years.
xttz wrote:Some stuff from /tg/ that mostly lines up with other rumours / WD snippets:
>Word on the D Weapons is 1: miss, 2-5: wound with no armor save but cover/invuln still allowed, 6: destroyed.
>The specifics for contesting is that all units now score, but troops in forged armies now have the uncontestable rule (like for the gargs in the formation), unless the other unit also has that rule. So it isn't just a big deal for forged v unbound, but makes troops a big deal in standard foc games.
>The rulebook also specifically states requiring player permission for unbound games. Oh, and as a bonus, forged armies get to reroll their warlord trait if desired.
>Unsure of the rest of the damage chart changes, but explodes only happens on a 7+ now.
>You can ally with "come the apoc" now. Penalties include not being allowed within 12 in and not being able to deploy together
>Jink saves are better, but universally force snap shots next turn.
>FMC now only have to make one grounding test a shooting phase, and only if wounded. No more laser pointer crashes. Big buff for flying circus.
>Oh, and apparently snap fire has been changed to a -2BS modifier instead of the flat BS1
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
CtA being able to ally, that's cool. Wait, Tyranids can have allies now?
>mfw still need markerlights to fire overwatch with bs 2+
hm... and how about Counterfire Defense System? It allows Battlesuit models fire Overwatch at BS 2 already...
BlaxicanX wrote: There's nothing in the fluff to support the idea that Inquisitors become more radical the older they get. It happens, and it's certainly a danger, but that's not the same thing as it being the forgone conclusion of working as an Inquisitor. Using Eisenhorn as an example, Commodus Voke was old as gak when he died, around 200 years old, and was Puritan to the bone.
The fact of the matter is that the idea of Coteaz or any Space Marine, especially Grey Knights, intentionally summoning deaemons is stupid as gak and utterly shatters the fluff. There is no logic-hoops one can jump through to make that not the case; it's as idiotic as Black Templars being more willing to fight alongside Tau than Sisters of Battle.
Codex: Grey Knights pg. 45 wrote:Coteaz knows that the boon he seeks could easily be granted by a Daemon, should he summon and bind it according to the proper rituals. Part of him longs to embrace this small evil, that it may firm up the foundations of his righteous work. It is a temptation that grows stronger with every passing day, but one that Coteaz has stalwartly resisted, at least so far...
angelofvengeance wrote: It appears that the "Into The Maelstrom" video got posted yesterday by mistake as it's now dated on the blog as 14/05/14 instead of 13/05/14. Oops.
Gws videos are alresdy posted since start of may, but you cant see them without links. The first one was dated may 1st if i remember correctly.
Not sure why people think it's not "fluffy" for loyalists to use malefic Daemonology. The fiction has long supported the idea of loyalist psykers using (or trying to use) Chaos as a tool, with the end justifying the means. Or you could use it to represent rogue psykers showing their true colors in times of desperation, or even an aspect of a traitor army.
If summoned units are counted as being part of the Chaos Daemons faction and the 12" minimum range for Come the Apocalypse armies applies to summoned units as well, then it's almost impossible for anyone who isn't at least desperate allies with daemons to summon them. The only possible way seems to be having your psyker out on his own and then killing him during the summoning.
That should go a long way towards placating anyone who was upset that their goody-two-shoes loyalist armies could potentially call on the forces of pointy naughtiness.
Perfect Organism wrote: If summoned units are counted as being part of the Chaos Daemons faction and the 12" minimum range for Come the Apocalypse armies applies to summoned units as well, then it's almost impossible for anyone who isn't at least desperate allies with daemons to summon them. The only possible way seems to be having your psyker out on his own and then killing him during the summoning.
That should go a long way towards placating anyone who was upset that their goody-two-shoes loyalist armies could potentially call on the forces of pointy naughtiness.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't find another angle on these minis on the GW website, but this is from the most recent video. Is this a new model:
It looks like the weapon is the standard Rokkit Launcha from the Boyz Mob box. There was a cigar smoking head in the Burna/ Lootas box though so it could be a mash up from two boxes....
Yup, that seems reasonable to me. And it looks like they have done a very sensible thing, by splitting the full thing into three books, so you'll only be hefting one slimmer volume of rules, while the rest of the fluff stays in the slipcase.
£50 for that seems reasonable to me.
£200 for the LE seems extreme, but I'll wait to see it.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I like the idea of daemonology in principle.... Though, taking a 1500pt Army, then being able to add to it with more troops in game... There's imbalance and then there is taking it to whole new levels.
I also really don't like the idea of the imperium purposely summoning daemons, it really is so against the fluff it is untrue, now if daemons were summoned as the consequence of perils of the warp and went to the opposing player, and always counted as 'come the apocalypse' then yeah, I like that idea, but the idea of space marine librarians sacrifycing themselves to khorne, when battling khorne daemons? They could have at least made it interesting, with different creatures than those of the big 4... 'Imperial daemons' or 'Eldar daemons' or 'Ork daemons'
Assuming Orks have access to this, I fully intend to make myself Tuska and some of his Psy Nobz to use for "counts as" stuff.
Demons are for chumps, warp Orks all the way.
I know a wolf player who says he's going to weird-up some wolves and use them as the 13th company counts-as-bloodletters. Sounded cool to me.
Aye, I'll be going the Tuska route too, if Orks have access to this. Kind of a Draigo situation.Pulled through the warp by the power of WAAAGH, then buggers off again once there's no more stompin to be done.
In terms of the FMC grounding test, I suspect that in addition to only testing once per phase, the FMC will be stuck on the ground for the following turn. As someone else pointed out, if a FMC only took one grounding test at the end of the phase, it would be pretty pointless as you wouldn't have an opportunity to shoot the FMC on the ground at all (though you could assault). I suspect there might be an additional factor there.
Colpicklejar wrote: I know a wolf player who says he's going to weird-up some wolves and use them as the 13th company counts-as-bloodletters. Sounded cool to me.
I've been thinking of a Radical Maleus Inquisitor and what forms the daemons would take from his mind.
Spacewolves with chainswords for Bloodletters with the Fenris Wolf Packs for the Khorne-dogs and the Cav dudes for the Bloodcrushers.
Iron Hands with Hammers and Cudgels for Plague Bearers.
Sister Repentia with their Evisorators for Daemonettes.
All greenstuff and painted up to be wreathed in flames of the chaos faction (Red Flames for Khorne, Green for Nurgle etc) but I cant think of something that could pass for the Pink Horrors and their rapid shots that would also be "terrifying" on the battlefield.
I'm hoping for a rule book only release. I don't want the regurgitated fluff book. I have 3 of those already as all previous rule books are only good for the fluff now, or maybe if I found someone to play a previous edition against. Can't stand looking at the same pictures of someone elses models over and over again. I see them in the codex, and the website, what do I need a picture book of the models for too? If I buy this at all, those two books are being sold as soon as possible, and if they don't sell, they are going to be burned.
Demonic Squigs, Tuska, a whole squad of Wryds new plastic razorspine rattlers with warp crazed grotz riding them?
These demon rules could conceivably be an open season for modellers/converters or just people who want to find a use for cool models from other ranges.
Take 1 culuxus assassin, surround him with psykers of your own to increase his shots per turn, use those psykers to summon tzeentch daemons who in turn summon even more tzeentch daemons... stop once you reach 30+ shots a turn from one guy...
This is very tongue in cheek before anyone being pedantic about it.
Murrdox wrote: In terms of the FMC grounding test, I suspect that in addition to only testing once per phase, the FMC will be stuck on the ground for the following turn. As someone else pointed out, if a FMC only took one grounding test at the end of the phase, it would be pretty pointless as you wouldn't have an opportunity to shoot the FMC on the ground at all (though you could assault). I suspect there might be an additional factor there.
That would be very nice, but too taxing to its player.
I don't normally bash GW... I'm a fan boy, I defy anyone to say otherwise... I bought the fething $30 clippers... but these new covers are just; lazy... uninspired... pathetic crap.
Good point. I hadn't even considered that those were the actual covers, they're so dull. If they are, then they truly are awful.
I know people said 6th BRB was too busy, but they've gone to the other extreme with the cover.
So I have been thinking about the powers in general and I dont think psyker spam or anything of that nature is going to be worth it unless powers are SUPER over the top. There is serious diminishing returns on powers.
For example. Lets say you start with 4 dice from the pool and have two level two casters, so now you have 8 dice.
To reliably get a warp charge 1 off requires 2 dice, so if you have 4 warp charge 1 powers you can reliably get three of them off this turn.
However lets say you have 4 dice and 10 mastery levels. Now you can reliably get 5 powers or so off. However how many points is that going to cost to get those 10 mastery levels compared to the 4 masterly levels? is it really going to be worth the extra points?
I'll take that cover over the current one any day. The horrible pin head and fethed up perspective of the plasma pistol arm of the 6E cover have bugged me for two years.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't find another angle on these minis on the GW website, but this is from the most recent video. Is this a new model:
Nope, thats a normal ork boy with the rokkit launcha pointing directly at you. It's got its "blast shield" attached. I think you find the thing in the loota/burna-box.
Rick_1138 wrote: Even more reason to get the munitorium edition...I shall be sitting on the F5 button in store to get the damned thing, covers look so much better.
Just hope £200 is accurate
I won't be paying a $245 premium to get a different picture on the front, but have at it if it's your thing...
(Assuming $330 rumor is true, and $85 for standard edition)
Rick_1138 wrote: Even more reason to get the munitorium edition...I shall be sitting on the F5 button in store to get the damned thing, covers look so much better.
Just hope £200 is accurate
I heard £180 from "A SOURCE". No idea if that's real.
I just got back into 40K (haven't even played my first game yet..still building) and I have ot say I may have come back at the perfect time. The rules so far look great, allies reigned in to cutback on some of the nonesense, adding daemonology (regardless of fluff, the darkness behind this feels like old 40K) allows a variety of models on the table without having to get a full army. Looking forward to getting the book next week.
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
I'd wager exactly the opposite. For light and medium vehicles, it's now far more economical to go for the HP kill instead of trying for the Explode result. Multishot weapons aiming for HP kills lose less of their effectiveness (as they relied less on Damage chart results in the first place) than most heavy AT guns looking to kill through explodes results.
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
I'd wager exactly the opposite. For light and medium vehicles, it's now far more economical to go for the HP kill instead of trying for the Explode result. Multishot weapons aiming for HP kills lose less of their effectiveness (as they relied less on Damage chart results in the first place) than most heavy AT guns looking to kill through explodes results.
Agreed, changing the damage table doesn't change the way HP work. Unless glances got changed as well or all vehicles got a signifigant HP boost (like, say double) the effect will still be a meta focused around massed glancing things to death.
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
I'd wager exactly the opposite. For light and medium vehicles, it's now far more economical to go for the HP kill instead of trying for the Explode result. Multishot weapons aiming for HP kills lose less of their effectiveness (as they relied less on Damage chart results in the first place) than most heavy AT guns looking to kill through explodes results.
Agreed, changing the damage table doesn't change the way HP work. Unless glances got changed as well or all vehicles got a signifigant HP boost (like, say double) the effect will still be a meta focused around massed glancing things to death.
Or perhaps a further 4+ roll on glances to remove HP's while punches need a 2+...
TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
I'd wager exactly the opposite. For light and medium vehicles, it's now far more economical to go for the HP kill instead of trying for the Explode result. Multishot weapons aiming for HP kills lose less of their effectiveness (as they relied less on Damage chart results in the first place) than most heavy AT guns looking to kill through explodes results.
Vehicles scoring, and exploding on a 7: perfect. Now true AT weapons will be used against vehicles, instead of S6/7 AP3+ stuff.
I'd wager exactly the opposite. For light and medium vehicles, it's now far more economical to go for the HP kill instead of trying for the Explode result. Multishot weapons aiming for HP kills lose less of their effectiveness (as they relied less on Damage chart results in the first place) than most heavy AT guns looking to kill through explodes results.
Agreed, changing the damage table doesn't change the way HP work. Unless glances got changed as well or all vehicles got a signifigant HP boost (like, say double) the effect will still be a meta focused around massed glancing things to death.
Yes, the old glancing technique will remain. But nowadays a S7 weapon is more than enough to destroy a vehicle in one shot, freeing other S6-7 to hit another stuff. With the new rules, people will need to sacrifice more firepower of that kind to deplete a vehicle from its HPs. Unless they bring more powerful weapons, reducing the number of aforementioned weapons.
Rick_1138 wrote: TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
So you also get a Visions magazine with hardcover ($50), cards ($8) and counters ($15). So, bought separately it would be $158. So you only have a $182 "tax" for the collector's edition.
I don't normally bash GW... I'm a fan boy, I defy anyone to say otherwise... I bought the fething $30 clippers... but these new covers are just; lazy... uninspired... pathetic crap.
I like the cover a lot. Unlike all of the usual crap covers they provide of some hero in some awkward pose you'd never see on a battlefield straight out of a nerd's fantasy.
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
Rick_1138 wrote: TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
So you also get a Visions magazine with hardcover ($50), cards ($8) and counters ($15). So, bought separately it would be $158. So you only have a $182 "tax" for the collector's edition.
Completely and utterly a rip off.
Yeah, I'm failing to understand what the WOW factor of the Munitorum is supposed to be. Is it just the big case that everything is housed in?
Yes, the old glancing technique will remain. But nowadays a S7 weapon is more than enough to destroy a vehicle in one shot, freeing other S6-7 to hit another stuff. With the new rules, people will need to sacrifice more firepower of that kind to deplete a vehicle from its HPs. Unless they bring more powerful weapons, reducing the number of aforementioned weapons.
The big issue is that such weapons didn't rely on explodes results in the first place, they were a happy surprise but never the primary kill method. Their primary kill method (HP kills) already required *way* fewer average shots to kill a tank than trying to go for Explodes results, which were largely "happy accidents" more than anything else. Meanwhile the heavier AT guns that aimed to try for Explodes results lose more of their effectiveness by comparison, a lot more. Both weapons are less effective, but the higher S, lower AP guns are hit harder than the lower S, higher AP weapons with greater rates of fire.
Rick_1138 wrote: TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
So you also get a Visions magazine with hardcover ($50), cards ($8) and counters ($15). So, bought separately it would be $158. So you only have a $182 "tax" for the collector's edition.
Completely and utterly a rip off.
Yeah, I'm failing to understand what the WOW factor of the Munitorum is supposed to be. Is it just the big case that everything is housed in?
The extra stuff plus the box, plus those objective markers.
Even if I had the money it doesn't really come across as being worth THAT much to me.
I'd buy the objective markers if they were a separate thing, but there's no way I'll spring for the LE box, especially as it'll lose all residual value in a couple of years.
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
Only if you have BS4 or over to begin with. My Tau have not changed one bit except for Commanders/Tanks.
Making us take a test (be it initiative or leadership, which I think are the most likely if a test were to be involved) before we get to fire overwatch which is no more effective than it was before is stupid. It's stupid because it will not affect the armies who have a better ballistic skill (ie Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar) as badly due to their on average higher LD and initiative values.
azreal13 wrote: I'd buy the objective markers if they were a separate thing, but there's no way I'll spring for the LE box, especially as it'll lose all residual value in a couple of years.
I am hoping that a set of markers like those will be released along with the dice and templates next week.
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
Only if you have BS4 or over to begin with. My Tau have not changed one bit except for Commanders/Tanks.
Making us take a test (be it initiative or leadership, which I think are the most likely if a test were to be involved) before we get to fire overwatch which is no more effective than it was before is stupid. It's stupid because it will not affect the armies who are already better at shooting (ie Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar) as badly due to their on average higher LD and initiative values.
It's not stupid because it will help armies like tyranids and orks who were failing charges due to overwatch wounds in 6 th. Heavy shooting armies like tau and IG don't need any help - they dominate.
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
Only if you have BS4 or over to begin with. My Tau have not changed one bit except for Commanders/Tanks.
Making us take a test (be it initiative or leadership, which I think are the most likely if a test were to be involved) before we get to fire overwatch which is no more effective than it was before is stupid. It's stupid because it will not affect the armies who have better ballistic skill (ie Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar) as badly due to their on average higher LD and initiative values.
It's not stupid because it will help armies like tyranids and orks who were failing charges due to overwatch wounds in 6 th. Heavy shooting armies like tau and IG don't need any help - they dominate.
How will it help them? Armies who have higher BS will now be killing more Ork and Tyranid models in overwatch than they were before, due to them firing ballistic skill 2+.
The problem that Orks and Tyranids had against Tau and IG wasn't overwatch. It was being massacred before they ever got into range for overwatch to be thought about.
insaniak wrote: Wound allocation still from the front makes sad panda.
I disagree, front-first removal was one of my favorite changes.
I'm just curious, would you rather go back to 'owner chooses' or have some other system of removal (random for example)? I though the elimination of wound shenanigans based around differently equipped models was a great change.
Maybe the best compromise would be allow the owner to choose which model, but once a wound is allocated all others need to go to that model.
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
Only if you have BS4 or over to begin with. My Tau have not changed one bit except for Commanders/Tanks.
Making us take a test (be it initiative or leadership, which I think are the most likely if a test were to be involved) before we get to fire overwatch which is no more effective than it was before is stupid. It's stupid because it will not affect the armies who have a better ballistic skill (ie Space Marines, Eldar, Dark Eldar) as badly due to their on average higher LD and initiative values.
In every edition GW perceives a problem they created in the previous edition and adds a fix that fails to work properly because it has an unintended side effect.
I am afraid that is just a rule of GW's game development process.
Rick_1138 wrote: TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
So you also get a Visions magazine with hardcover ($50), cards ($8) and counters ($15). So, bought separately it would be $158. So you only have a $182 "tax" for the collector's edition.
Completely and utterly a rip off.
Visions isn't worth $5 with a soft cover. Who in their right mind would pay $50 for visions with a hard cover? Unless it was signed by the team or something.
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I can't find another angle on these minis on the GW website, but this is from the most recent video. Is this a new model:
Nope, thats a normal ork boy with the rokkit launcha pointing directly at you. It's got its "blast shield" attached. I think you find the thing in the loota/burna-box.
Head and rokkit launcha is from the loota/burna box as well. You can attach a face guard with a slit for the cigar to the headdress he is wearing. The rokkit launcha is meant for the mek in that box, but I guess you can give it to one of the burna/loota bodies (identical to bodies from the boyz box). He probably built it from the spare bits after building 4 lootaz or burnaz without the mek.
Compare this LE 7th Ed rule book £200 (335) to the CE Forge World Horus Heresy package for £145 ($243). I don't think it's worth it, but that's just me.
Hard to read, but I read you get a poster (galaxy map), the 3 book set, exclusive metal markers, exclusive artwork card sets, reference cards, box, not sure about the small book there...
Maybe, just guessing, maybe (exclusive?) dice, tape measure, and templates too? Can't read that blurry scan.....
Wayshuba wrote: It does make you kind of wonder exactly who GW thinks this market is made up of anymore when they release an edition of miniature game rules for $340?
I just can't fathom what planet they are living on over there in Nottingham.
Well it's printed in such a low number (half the previous LE rulebook release) that they must be targeting the absolute most die-hard of customers.
I just don't think such a massive price tag with little in the way of additionals is a nice way of saying "thank-you" to your best customers.
kronk wrote: Compare this LE 7th Ed rule book £200 (335) to the CE Forge World Horus Heresy package for £145 ($243). I don't think it's worth it, but that's just me.
Spoiler:
Just so it's comparable, those covers on the FW books are expensive covers to make. Embossed, foil stamped, separate printed label assembly. Those are typically what would be on LE books.
The ones on the 7th edition ones are standard covers, no different than current hardcovers, just with different artwork. In other words, not a single extra penny in cost to GW. But they sure as heck are going to stick it to anyone buying that junk.
Reminds me of something my father used to say to me when I was a young'un more than 35 years ago.... "Son. Some people just have more money than brains!" I guess that is exactly what GW is betting on with such a complete rip off for something they will obsolete in another two years.
Visions isn't worth $5 with a soft cover. Who in their right mind would pay $50 for visions with a hard cover? Unless it was signed by the team or something.
Well, unless Tetrisphreak got annoyed by me reposting HIS pictures of HIS magazine via Photobucket because his hot links to his Dropbox account don't show up in posts (which, as he was aware I was doing it, I doubt) GW, or someone with too much time and a slightly unhealthy love for GW, have reported the images and they've been removed.
So, let us not forget that for every small improvement we may be seeing, there is still a an element that are massive, massive douches.
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
White Scars being a close second.
Ravenwing would like a word with you.
Unless Skilled Rider changes White Scars still do it better (auto-pass dangerous terrain tests). Plus Grav Guns.
azreal13 wrote: Well, unless Tetrisphreak got annoyed by me reposting HIS pictures of HIS magazine via Photobucket because his hot links to his Dropbox account don't show up in posts (which, as he was aware I was doing it, I doubt) GW, or someone with too much time and a slightly unhealthy love for GW, have reported the images and they've been removed.
So, let us not forget that for every small improvement we may be seeing, there is still a an element that are massive, massive douches.
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
White Scars being a close second.
Ravenwing would like a word with you.
Unless Skilled Rider changes White Scars still do it better (auto-pass dangerous terrain tests). Plus Grav Guns.
...for cheaper, with a better HoW too (my bikes look Raven play White )
Here is the thing about the collectors box. Its not for everyone, nor is it targeted at every one.
For many people the collectors edition is probably a weeks work+. So the upgrade is not worth it. Because of the offset in cost to resources.
However there are people in this hobby who are collectors, who also make a lot of money. For some of them the limited edition might be at most two hours work. So for two hours of work I would HAPPILY buy the collectors edition, I would have more money than I could spendat those kinds of wages so its either things I can enjoy now or more savings. Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy. If you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar. These are the same kinds of people that pay a couple hundred to thousands of dollars to get their armies painted. You think an additional 200 bucks or so for the collectors matters?
Even if you don't make that kind of money it is nice to have, one of those little things where you get to see it on your shelf everyday or enjoy your exclusive extras.
Am I saying this is a majority of their base? Nope, but there is probably enough to warrent a 2000 copy print run.
buddha wrote: I'm realizing in horror that with the new objective secured rule eldar jetbikes just officially became the best troop choices in the game.
White Scars being a close second.
Ravenwing would like a word with you.
Unless Skilled Rider changes White Scars still do it better (auto-pass dangerous terrain tests). Plus Grav Guns.
Pfft. (let's not get into a WS vs RW wang debate).
I was referencing how RW can naturally spam out high # of "troop" units with that "objective secured rule".
Leth wrote: Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
But we're all getting a mini-rulebook. The basic ($85) rulebook will come as 3 separate books per White Dwarf. Notice it says "Slipcased 3 volume hardback set"? 1. Rules, 2. Fluff, 3. Pretty Model Pictures.
with the rumored Jink change, do we know if this increases the Jink boost to 3+ for moving flat out or will it just be a "4+" regardless?
If so (and especially coupled with the rumored "snapshots=BS-2") this will make certain skimmers particularly heinous, particularly those with "+1 to cover save" wargear (wave serpents with 2+ cover saves for example or 3+ "fire everything at BS2 with rerolls")
Leth wrote: Here is the thing about the collectors box. Its not for everyone, nor is it targeted at every one.
For many people the collectors edition is probably a weeks work+. So the upgrade is not worth it. Because of the offset in cost to resources.
However there are people in this hobby who are collectors, who also make a lot of money. For some of them the limited edition might be at most two hours work. So for two hours of work I would HAPPILY buy the collectors edition, I have more money than I can typically spend at those kinds of wages so its either things I can enjoy now or more savings.
Even if you dont make that kind of money it is nice to have, one of those little things where you get to see it on your shelf everyday or enjoy your exclusive extras. Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
Am I saying this is a majority of their base? Nope, but there is probably enough to warrent a 2000 copy print run.
I get what you're saying Leth. And obviously with the low print-count this is supposed to be a rather exclusive option for people with money to, well, burn.
But I think the problem with the Munitorum edition is there is little reason for it to warrant that $340 price tag. Like wayshubba said, all of the extras together with the hardcover books leaves the cost of the box alone at a price tag of about $180. That's not so much offering wealthy customers much value other than to say you are that much wealthier than other customers; that an extra $100 doesn't even make you flinch.
This doesn't even make any sense. If cover and invulnerable saves are allowed then all you've got is an AP 2 weapon. Why would you ever take a D-weapon when you can take things like STR 10 AP 2 guns with a bigger template?
Not sure why cover saves keep popping up in relation to D weapons, the WD scan confirms that only INVULN saves are taken against 2-5 wound rolls ond the D chart
Just so it's comparable, those covers on the FW books are expensive covers to make. Embossed, foil stamped, separate printed label assembly. Those are typically what would be on LE books.
Absolutely fair points, Wayshuba. And I agree that it points out the disparity between the 2 products even further.
I think the meta will change to even less high strength AT weapons being taken....
first there is the explodes on 7, essentially nerfing AP1 and AP2 weapons since you now just want to glance things to death even more
then there is the BS2 snapshot for BS4 armies
then there is the improved jink cover save, but at the cost of reducing your weapons to snapshots
all on all, this means we'll only see much, much more shuriken cannon / scatter laser spam than before
on the other hand, with most BS4 armies being able to snapshot at BS2, this will make AV 10 flyers even less durable. why bother with skyfire if you can just bolter blast them from the sky?
azreal13 wrote: Well, unless Tetrisphreak got annoyed by me reposting HIS pictures of HIS magazine via Photobucket because his hot links to his Dropbox account don't show up in posts (which, as he was aware I was doing it, I doubt) GW, or someone with too much time and a slightly unhealthy love for GW, have reported the images and they've been removed.
So, let us not forget that for every small improvement we may be seeing, there is still a an element that are massive, massive douches.
Yeah, I've got them saved on my tablet and they're still up on the FB page I manage, but I'll be blowed if I can be arsed to set up another online account to host them somewhere else to post them here again.
Rick_1138 wrote: TBF to the munitorum edition, you get the counters and psychic cards and the separate art book included so its not THAT much of a rip off, the Ltd Ed tax is on top but its not crazy mental.
And I like Collectors eds so im happy its not just a slip case!
What do you mean that much of a rip?
Buying the standard version and the extra bits puts it at a little over $150. You're paying twice that amount for a different cover and a number printed on the inside.
It is crazy mental. There's no way to justify something being that much more when the content is identical.
Leth wrote: Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
But we're all getting a mini-rulebook. The basic ($85) rulebook will come as 3 separate books per White Dwarf. Notice it says "Slipcased 3 volume hardback set"? 1. Rules, 2. Fluff, 3. Pretty Model Pictures.
3 rulebook $85 (retail)
box $50ish (an apoc box sold for $87)
coins $40ish (if lucky)
map $15ish (maybe)
card set 1 $25ish
card set 2 $25ish
ref cards $15ish (perhaps?)
slip case $20 (no joke, I sold my Astra Militarum for $25 on ebay)
$275ish...
mystery small book? $?
The limited edition Apocalypse sets still sell for their retail price on ebay....didn't lose or gain value.... Granted, they rarely sell though....
Happygrunt wrote: Oh cool snap fire is at -2bs now instead of Bs1. So now my vets will get to hit on a 5+ instead of just a six. Too bad my tanks will still be BS1.
I almost finished my command vanquisher too, so that will get to hit flyers on 5+. Time to try and snipe a stormraven with a vanquisher round.
Tau buffmanders just became more awesomer. Overwatching BS3 drones? Sure.
Ok i've rerun the math for the psyker stuff,this time with a bit more time on my hands. Last time i forgot that you can get a peril even with a triple 6, not only a double one. This increases the chances quite a bit from 6 dices on. Also while i was at it i also calculated the chances to double and triple peril.
There is a mini rulebook in addition to the full size one, so in effect two rules books are included on top of the templates limited edition stuff and cards.
Buying the standard version, and cards is 108, the art book is an addition 65 or so, so we are at 173. Now factor in the additional mini rulebook, special covers for everything, special templates etc. Only looking at an additional 100 or so for the limited edition part.
You also have an exclusive cover among other things. To many people that exclusivity is worth the extra price alone. Do I think it is worth it? Not for me right now cause I dont make enough to justify it. But if I was a big boy with a real adult job I would probably do it. Warhammer is about the only thing I really spend disposable income on since I stopped playing video games.
See, personally it doesn't bother me that Lamborghini is charging thousands for a rear-view cam on their new Huracan that comes very cheaply or standard on average passenger cars.
But then I'm not the kind of person to much spend time and mental energy complaining about the value of a luxury item I'm not going to buy anyway.
azreal13 wrote: Well, unless Tetrisphreak got annoyed by me reposting HIS pictures of HIS magazine via Photobucket because his hot links to his Dropbox account don't show up in posts (which, as he was aware I was doing it, I doubt) GW, or someone with too much time and a slightly unhealthy love for GW, have reported the images and they've been removed.
So, let us not forget that for every small improvement we may be seeing, there is still a an element that are massive, massive douches.
Yeah, I've got them saved on my tablet and they're still up on the FB page I manage, but I'll be blowed if I can be arsed to set up another online account to host them somewhere else to post them here again.
Can't blame you on that one. I only rehosted them on the blog for the few people who read the blog but don't hang out on boards.
Leth wrote: Here is the thing about the collectors box. Its not for everyone, nor is it targeted at every one.
For many people the collectors edition is probably a weeks work+. So the upgrade is not worth it. Because of the offset in cost to resources.
However there are people in this hobby who are collectors, who also make a lot of money. For some of them the limited edition might be at most two hours work. So for two hours of work I would HAPPILY buy the collectors edition, I have more money than I can typically spend at those kinds of wages so its either things I can enjoy now or more savings.
Even if you dont make that kind of money it is nice to have, one of those little things where you get to see it on your shelf everyday or enjoy your exclusive extras. Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
Am I saying this is a majority of their base? Nope, but there is probably enough to warrent a 2000 copy print run.
I get what you're saying Leth. And obviously with the low print-count this is supposed to be a rather exclusive option for people with money to, well, burn.
But I think the problem with the Munitorum edition is there is little reason for it to warrant that $340 price tag. Like wayshubba said, all of the extras together with the hardcover books leaves the cost of the box alone at a price tag of about $180. That's not so much offering wealthy customers much value other than to say you are that much wealthier than other customers; that an extra $100 doesn't even make you flinch.
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?
Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.
Leth wrote: Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
But we're all getting a mini-rulebook. The basic ($85) rulebook will come as 3 separate books per White Dwarf. Notice it says "Slipcased 3 volume hardback set"? 1. Rules, 2. Fluff, 3. Pretty Model Pictures.
It WAS confirmed the 6th edition starter boxes would go back to GW (or perhaps the GW managers would get minis to slip in) and the new 7th minis would be put in them. It was mentioned in WD.... So this summer for minis in the old starters? Perhaps new 7th (BA vs Orks) starters with minis for Xmas?
Alex C wrote: Mini-Rulebook is usually in reference to the smaller, A5-sized book that comes in starter sets.
Which isn't at all what we were talking about.
Leth wrote: There is a mini rulebook in addition to the full size one,
There is? Then i stand corrected. Sorry.
Don't hold your breath though. That probably wont be on individual sale until next year. (Unless you get it off ebay). They'll (GW) want DV sets to sell out first ('cause they'll get the minis first in them), then the new starter box (if that is actually happening)... Then a mini for sale on it's own (spring/summer 2015 maybe... IMHO
So if we can make an Unbound army of all flyers, does that mean flyers on the first turn? Or is that just a part of throwing away all restrictions? Sounds... fun?
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
So basically +1 BS and now its overpowered, whereas before it was nearly worthless to you?
Wayshuba wrote: [
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?
Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.
Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)
BlaxicanX wrote: Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.
So basically +1 BS and now its overpowered, whereas before it was nearly worthless to you?
BS2 is twice as effective as BS1. It's a pretty big deal.
Wayshuba wrote: [
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?
Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.
Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)
Hey Shandara, I think you might be misunderstanding Wayshuba and myself in this context. I didn't say that people who are buying the LE are idiots (although if it was priced at something like a $1000 I may be tempted to change my tune ) and Wayshuba is saying that even with money to burn, there is *still* not fair value in the product.
Wayshuba wrote: [
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?
Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.
Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)
Hey Shandara, I think you might be misunderstanding Wayshuba and myself in this context. I didn't say that people who are buying the LE are idiots (although if it was priced at something like a $1000 I may be tempted to change my tune ) and Wayshuba is saying that even with money to burn, there is *still* not fair value in the product.
At least, that is my understanding.
You're understanding is correct. Each person will have their own value threshold where they feel they get their money's worth. For me, when I compare a $340 rule set to say getting a full color hard bound rulebook, army book and 2000 pts of forces (two 1,000 point armies) for Bolt Action being $316 total, then I see absolutely very little value to the GW offering for simply books and a few trinkets. However, someone else might find $340 reasonable for what they are getting.
I have just recived an email from the online discounter I use for the 7th ed rule book. After all the talk of a 100 price tag I was really happy to see preorders for $66.
Leth wrote: Here is the thing about the collectors box. Its not for everyone, nor is it targeted at every one.
For many people the collectors edition is probably a weeks work+. So the upgrade is not worth it. Because of the offset in cost to resources.
However there are people in this hobby who are collectors, who also make a lot of money. For some of them the limited edition might be at most two hours work. So for two hours of work I would HAPPILY buy the collectors edition, I have more money than I can typically spend at those kinds of wages so its either things I can enjoy now or more savings.
Even if you dont make that kind of money it is nice to have, one of those little things where you get to see it on your shelf everyday or enjoy your exclusive extras. Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.
Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.
Am I saying this is a majority of their base? Nope, but there is probably enough to warrent a 2000 copy print run.
I get what you're saying Leth. And obviously with the low print-count this is supposed to be a rather exclusive option for people with money to, well, burn.
But I think the problem with the Munitorum edition is there is little reason for it to warrant that $340 price tag. Like wayshubba said, all of the extras together with the hardcover books leaves the cost of the box alone at a price tag of about $180. That's not so much offering wealthy customers much value other than to say you are that much wealthier than other customers; that an extra $100 doesn't even make you flinch.
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?
Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.
See the thing is value is all relative. So you might make enough where the cost is negligible but you still do'nt get the value from it. My father is the same way. He has a crap ton of money and still complains about the price of codexs(as he spends over 5,000 on a dining room table from india). So for you the value to work ratio is not worth it regardless of cost. But I know in the last year even my poor self has spent more than that on unnecessary food purchases. Would I rather have the extras from the rulebook or the food that is sitting on my waist right now? I would rather have the extras from the rulebook personally.
But lets say its a days wages, so like 80,000 a year or so(especially since you can get it for a discount I think since its not website exclusive). There are plenty of things I have spent more on that I would get less value from I am ashamed to say. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare, especially since I could save a friend 85 bucks by giving him one of my rulebooks. But sadly I don't even have the choice so it is moot for me.
But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"
Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire.
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Veriamp wrote: I have just recived an email from the online discounter I use for the 7th ed rule book. After all the talk of a 100 price tag I was really happy to see preorders for $66.
GW is selling it for $85USD. That's been confirmed a couple times now.
But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"
Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire
As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.
But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"
Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire
As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.
Oh I understand, but I don't think we can assume every rule has changed either. I don't think "Hard to Hit" will honestly stay as good as it is if Snap Fire really changes as rumored.
But once again it is all relative. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare. But sadly I dont even have the choice so it is moot for me.
You make a very important point here (one I discussed at length on another forum). More important than any in regard to the pricing. If GW keeps going, with $340 rule sets and 70% price increases in one go, eventually they WILL price the majority of their customer base from buying, even if they want to. To reach that point, always without a single exception, spells the complete collapse of a company. It is a practice taught in every business school and used by every business in the world except for GW. Because, to reach that point always puts a company out of business very, very fast.
Are they there yet, no, but they have crossed the threshold into that territory and, if they keep going, which it appears they are going to do, mark my words we will all see a rapid and complete collapse. Every single company in business history, regardless of size, that has crossed that threshold has done so. The largest in US history was Wang Computer which went from $51 billion in sales to completely out of business in two years! This pricing law is considered a law (as opposed to a rule) for a very good reason - it has always had the same predictable outcome - the company death of a company in a very short time frame.
But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"
Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire
As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.
Oh I understand, but I don't think we can assume every rule has changed either. I don't think "Hard to Hit" will honestly stay as good as it is if Snap Fire really changes as rumored.
Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)
I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.
Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.
paqman wrote: I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.
Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.
paqman wrote: I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.
Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.
Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)
As you can see above, I hope for the contrary
There has been a persistent rumour of a characteristic test (either LD or I) to allow OW for a while now, if there's something in that, or some other penalty, it could all work out fine.
I'm a daemons player, and I'm not panicking yet. (Yet....)
paqman wrote: I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.
Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.
But once again it is all relative. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare. But sadly I dont even have the choice so it is moot for me.
You make a very important point here (one I discussed at length on another forum). More important than any in regard to the pricing. If GW keeps going, with $340 rule sets and 70% price increases in one go, eventually they WILL price the majority of their customer base from buying, even if they want to. To reach that point, always without a single exception, spells the complete collapse of a company. It is a practice taught in every business school and used by every business in the world except for GW. Because, to reach that point always puts a company out of business very, very fast.
Are they there yet, no, but they have crossed the threshold into that territory and, if they keep going, which it appears they are going to do, mark my words we will all see a rapid and complete collapse. Every single company in business history, regardless of size, that has crossed that threshold has done so. The largest in US history was Wang Computer which went from $51 billion in sales to completely out of business in two years! This pricing law is considered a law (as opposed to a rule) for a very good reason - it has always had the same predictable outcome - the company death of a company in a very short time frame.
I am still going to buy the rulebook, so that is not changing. They are still getting that sale. All the price increases have done is that I have had to reduce the number of hobbies I have. Now I dont play as many video games since I dont have the time anymore anyway, I decided to invest my resources in painting and playing warhammer stuff. So for example instead of getting an Xbox 1 I got an airbrush set which now has made any investment in warhammer stuff more enjoyable by increasing my enjoyment and value from each hobby purchase. I invested in a tentacle maker so now I can make cool conversions, once again increasing value from each further purchase where I use it. Each box comes with more options now than it did before meaning that magnets, pinning vice, etc all further increase the value I get from every purchase I make.
So where as before I was getting more models but not as much value, now even at the increased prices I get a LOT more value per dollar from my minis. Do I wish they were cheaper? Sure but I dont mind because I am now getting way more value than I used to, so I guess it doesnt bother me as much.
Davor wrote: So will this be able to be purchased in the iPad or do we have to wait for that? Do we have any information about the e-versions of the book/s?
No mention of price, but it is confirmed that they will have an Ibook and ebook version on launch
paqman wrote: I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.
Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.
Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)
As you can see above, I hope for the contrary
Tau are BS3 so they'd still Overwatch at BS1. It'd be a buff to Marine, Necron, Eldar and Sisters armies though.
Ha! I didn't remmeber that .... and I play against them every 2 weeks
Yeah, they have ways to purchase BS2 Overwatch on some things, and they use Markerlights to (potentially) buff the Overwatch, but they'd be BS1 base on most things.
Davor wrote: So will this be able to be purchased in the iPad or do we have to wait for that? Do we have any information about the e-versions of the book/s?
No mention of price, but it is confirmed that they will have an Ibook and ebook version on launch
Thank you. Good to know. Now where the hell are the iTune cards for sale now.
But once again it is all relative. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare. But sadly I dont even have the choice so it is moot for me.
You make a very important point here (one I discussed at length on another forum). More important than any in regard to the pricing. If GW keeps going, with $340 rule sets and 70% price increases in one go, eventually they WILL price the majority of their customer base from buying, even if they want to. To reach that point, always without a single exception, spells the complete collapse of a company. It is a practice taught in every business school and used by every business in the world except for GW. Because, to reach that point always puts a company out of business very, very fast.
Are they there yet, no, but they have crossed the threshold into that territory and, if they keep going, which it appears they are going to do, mark my words we will all see a rapid and complete collapse. Every single company in business history, regardless of size, that has crossed that threshold has done so. The largest in US history was Wang Computer which went from $51 billion in sales to completely out of business in two years! This pricing law is considered a law (as opposed to a rule) for a very good reason - it has always had the same predictable outcome - the company death of a company in a very short time frame.
I am still going to buy the rulebook, so that is not changing. They are still getting that sale. All the price increases have done is that I have had to reduce the number of hobbies I have. Now I dont play as many video games since I dont have the time anymore anyway, I decided to invest my resources in painting and playing warhammer stuff. So for example instead of getting an Xbox 1 I got an airbrush set which now has made any investment in warhammer stuff more enjoyable by increasing my enjoyment and value from each hobby purchase. I invested in a tentacle maker so now I can make cool conversions, once again increasing value from each further purchase where I use it. Each box comes with more options now than it did before meaning that magnets, pinning vice, etc all further increase the value I get from every purchase I make.
So where as before I was getting more models but not as much value, now even at the increased prices I get a LOT more value per dollar from my minis. Do I wish they were cheaper? Sure but I dont mind because I am now getting way more value than I used to, so I guess it doesnt bother me as much.
Davor wrote: So will this be able to be purchased in the iPad or do we have to wait for that? Do we have any information about the e-versions of the book/s?
No mention of price, but it is confirmed that they will have an Ibook and ebook version on launch
I also tremendously reduced my purchases of GW stuff in the last 12 months (Though my armies are extensive as they are, so I don't "need" as much stuff as before). So basically, my spending went done for a few thousand $ a year, to a few hundred $ a year.
All this to say, I will also buy the book, the mission cards, the objectives and possibly the new templates if they are nice looking. But other then the occasional replacement paint pot, I don't need more. Which is unfortunate, I would like to have more armies, but looking back, I can't convince myself to invest as much as I did.
Anyways.... very happy with the majority of what I see up to now in the rumors and I can't wait to read every little rule parts of 7th and consider their impacts in the game. I was initially very reluctant to give in to unbound, but I think the tactical advantages of Bound armies will be interesting to test against a strong Unbound list.
But still it is interesting how for myself every new confirmation makes me go back to the army lists and make small changes. I almost spend more time list building than playing but it is a lot of fun and since I have a large collection i dont really need to buy anything outside of what I would want anyway.
It will also be interesting to see when they release all the books FAQs to bring abilities in line.
azreal13 wrote: There has been a persistent rumour of a characteristic test (either LD or I) to allow OW for a while now, if there's something in that, or some other penalty, it could all work out fine.
I'm a daemons player, and I'm not panicking yet. (Yet....)
I'm hoping there's a change to allow psychic shooting to be used for Overwatch.
Leth wrote: It will also be interesting to see when they release all the books FAQs to bring abilities in line.
Honestly, the FAQs may be a bigger make-or-break for me than the actual rulebook. Because even if the rules are decent if the FAQs make a mess of everything, what is the point?
I do hope Wave Serpent spam dies with this edition. Then again I'm no fan of spam armies in general.
But still it is interesting how for myself every new confirmation makes me go back to the army lists and make small changes. I almost spend more time list building than playing but it is a lot of fun and since I have a large collection i dont really need to buy anything outside of what I would want anyway.
It will also be interesting to see when they release all the books FAQs to bring abilities in line.
Hey, thanks for posting a link to that, Leth! That looks to be quite a useful tool, I may have to pick one up.
I do certainly hope that 7th will see the return of FAQs for the armies, although I hope even more so that the need for FAQ is a bit diminished, if GW's claim for "thousdands of games" worth of feedback is to be believed.
But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"
Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire.
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Veriamp wrote: I have just recived an email from the online discounter I use for the 7th ed rule book. After all the talk of a 100 price tag I was really happy to see preorders for $66.
GW is selling it for $85USD. That's been confirmed a couple times now.
Actually is it $100 for me, you know being Canadian and all. I still don't understand the massive 20% price difference between here and across the boarder, its like GW is living in the 90s.
I'm in the category of "easily affording" the LE, but spade a spade; it's a rip off out to sucker die hard fans. And it's a damned shame.
I'll be passing until GW matches price parity with their competition. $85 is a good investment in any other game. $340 would be an entire army in almost any other game, possibly two.
None of these changes that are leaking appear to "fix" anything, rather just shuffle x and y around (add z while they're at it). Sixth could have been easily patched with errata and the codices are where most of the problems stem. Remember, sixth went over a year with zero rules support. Are you going to dump $85 on a product that may (and very likely) end up in the same position?
Use a bit of reason instead of a gut check versus your sunk cost into your armies. Apply the "wait and see" approach. This may turn out to be a great release and you'll buy in whole hog (me too). Given the track record of the company'so business practices over the last year it would only be reasonable.
Veriamp wrote: Actually is it $100 for me, you know being Canadian and all. I still don't understand the massive 20% price difference between here and across the boarder, its like GW is living in the 90s.
Especially since the Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US Dollar at this point.
MWHistorian wrote: Maybe by "limited edition" they mean "We'll be changing editions really soon so its usefulness is limited?"
Nailed it!
At the end of the day 100$ is still less then most of my textbooks from school, and tbh I enjoy my brb far more than my management of people by people or filmstudies....
Veriamp wrote: Actually is it $100 for me, you know being Canadian and all. I still don't understand the massive 20% price difference between here and across the boarder, its like GW is living in the 90s.
Especially since the Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US Dollar at this point.
It's getting amusing how this game is so expensive that I time my purchases based on the relative strengths of currencies. Those XV9s are out of reach when the Canadian Dollar is at 50% of the GBP.
MWHistorian wrote: Maybe by "limited edition" they mean "We'll be changing editions really soon so its usefulness is limited?"
Nailed it!
At the end of the day 100$ is still less then most of my textbooks from school, and tbh I enjoy my brb far more than my management of people by people or filmstudies....
I'm actually going to try shopping for my textbooks online versus the college.
But yes, textbooks are friggin expensive and GW looks better than the nearly $200 books I buy to use for only a semester.
TheKbob wrote: I'm in the category of "easily affording" the LE, but spade a spade; it's a rip off out to sucker die hard fans. And it's a damned shame.
I'll be passing until GW matches price parity with their competition. $85 is a good investment in any other game. $340 would be an entire army in almost any other game, possibly two.
None of these changes that are leaking appear to "fix" anything, rather just shuffle x and y around (add z while they're at it). Sixth could have been easily patched with errata and the codices are where most of the problems stem. Remember, sixth went over a year with zero rules support. Are you going to dump $85 on a product that may (and very likely) end up in the same position?
Use a bit of reason instead of a gut check versus your sunk cost into your armies. Apply the "wait and see" approach. This may turn out to be a great release and you'll buy in whole hog (me too). Given the track record of the company'so business practices over the last year it would only be reasonable.
Of course, it's also possible to pre-order or buy the new rulebook on the release day and be a reasonable human being using a reasonable, rational approach to their spending.
Personally, I see no way that a "wait and see" approach will help me decide if I like 7th edition. I need to read it, digest it, play it and find out for myself.
I think the "2 yearers" should take a break, or stick with 6th, in their gaming circles for about 2 years...
I can just see the "2 yearers" who are hesitant to buy this 7th edition (thinking the 2 years of 6th has set the standard for GW somehow for 7th editions shelf life), wait 2 years to see if 7th is still around, or 8th is coming, just to discover 7th is still going, and finally buy a 7th edition rule book.
Then they say, "Oh, I guess it is here to stay for awhile." but then 7th lasts 2 more years, making it 4 (God, I hope longer though), and the "2 yearers" cries rise again! "...It only lasted me 2 years!"
Why'd ya wait?
Also, if 8th comes out after 7th is out just 2 years, with the logic of the "2 yearers", 8th would last 2 years too.....So....
spartanlegion wrote: I think the "2 yearers" should take a break, or stick with 6th, in their gaming circles for about 2 years...
I can just see the "2 yearers" who are hesitant to buy this 7th edition (thinking the 2 years of 6th has set the standard for GW somehow for 7th editions shelf life), wait 2 years to see if 7th is still around, or 8th is coming, just to discover 7th is still going, and finally buy a 7th edition rule book.
Then they say, "Oh, I guess it is here to stay for awhile." but then 7th lasts 2 more years, making it 4 (God, I hope longer though), and the "2 yearers" cries rise again! "...It only lasted me 2 years!"
Why'd ya wait?
Also, if 8th comes out after 7th is out just 2 years, with the logic of the "2 yearers", 8th would last 2 years too.....So....
I don't see where anyone is making an argument for waiting for two years. You're arguing against something no one's said. At least to my knowledge. Why wait two years? If you like 7th, then get it. If you don't, then don't. If you want to wait and see, you can get a pretty accurate judgement after a month or so.
But, if 2 years is the new cycle, then yes, some people do have a problem with that. Some will suck it up and some will move away. At this stage in GW's game, they shouldn't be doing moves that push people away. They should be doing the opposite in fact.
spartanlegion wrote: I think the "2 yearers" should take a break, or stick with 6th, in their gaming circles for about 2 years...
I can just see the "2 yearers" who are hesitant to buy this 7th edition (thinking the 2 years of 6th has set the standard for GW somehow for 7th editions shelf life), wait 2 years to see if 7th is still around, or 8th is coming, just to discover 7th is still going, and finally buy a 7th edition rule book.
Then they say, "Oh, I guess it is here to stay for awhile." but then 7th lasts 2 more years, making it 4 (God, I hope longer though), and the "2 yearers" cries rise again! "...It only lasted me 2 years!"
Why'd ya wait?
Also, if 8th comes out after 7th is out just 2 years, with the logic of the "2 yearers", 8th would last 2 years too.....So....
I don't see where anyone is making an argument for waiting for two years. You're arguing against something no one's said. At least to my knowledge. Why wait two years? If you like 7th, then get it. If you don't, then don't. If you want to wait and see, you can get a pretty accurate judgement after a month or so.
But, if 2 years is the new cycle, then yes, some people do have a problem with that. Some will suck it up and some will move away. At this stage in GW's game, they shouldn't be doing moves that push people away. They should be doing the opposite in fact.
azreal13 wrote: Well, unless Tetrisphreak got annoyed by me reposting HIS pictures of HIS magazine via Photobucket because his hot links to his Dropbox account don't show up in posts (which, as he was aware I was doing it, I doubt) GW, or someone with too much time and a slightly unhealthy love for GW, have reported the images and they've been removed.
So, let us not forget that for every small improvement we may be seeing, there is still a an element that are massive, massive douches.
Yeah, I've got them saved on my tablet and they're still up on the FB page I manage, but I'll be blowed if I can be arsed to set up another online account to host them somewhere else to post them here again.
imgur doesn't require an account, you just click the upload button and select the file.
Of course, it's also possible to pre-order or buy the new rulebook on the release day and be a reasonable human being using a reasonable, rational approach to their spending.
Personally, I see no way that a "wait and see" approach will help me decide if I like 7th edition. I need to read it, digest it, play it and find out for myself.
Nothing about the concept of preordering is rational. It can only burn a consumer. Your "guarantee" a product that will not be of short supply or fear of never restocking (in theory). More so when the product is site unseen.
The cost of the new rules is equal to the rules cost of three other games combined. That's nuts and not rational in the least. Given the track record in the quality of writing for GW in the past six to twelve months, couple with other poor business practices, it is much more rational to take a wait and see approach.
There will be scans, photos, battle reports, tactics talks and more the first month it's out. You can use this to make an informed purchase over that of an impulse. The latter if irrational, the former is rational.
There is too much evidence against paying full price, day eon, for this product by the rational sort. As others have implied, it's not about how much money you have, but how to spend it.
Of course, it's also possible to pre-order or buy the new rulebook on the release day and be a reasonable human being using a reasonable, rational approach to their spending.
Personally, I see no way that a "wait and see" approach will help me decide if I like 7th edition. I need to read it, digest it, play it and find out for myself.
Nothing about the concept of preordering is rational. It can only burn a consumer. Your "guarantee" a product that will not be of short supply or fear of never restocking (in theory). More so when the product is site unseen.
The cost of the new rules is equal to the rules cost of three other games combined. That's nuts and not rational in the least. Given the track record in the quality of writing for GW in the past six to twelve months, couple with other poor business practices, it is much more rational to take a wait and see approach.
There will be scans, photos, battle reports, tactics talks and more the first month it's out. You can use this to make an informed purchase over that of an impulse. The latter if irrational, the former is rational.
There is too much evidence against paying full price, day eon, for this product by the rational sort. As others have implied, it's not about how much money you have, but how to spend it.
From what GW has said, the biggest reason they do pre-orders is because there has been a huge demand for them in the past and they gave in an said "sure". Not that it really matters on anything other than maybe the Limited Editions as it lets you reserve those if you really badly want one.
EDIT: As for the cost of the rules, it's only slightly more nuts than it was for 6th. 6th cost $75 for the big rulebook, they added more to this one and bumped it up $10. Does that really make it okay? No, but I don't think GW is only just now getting nuts, they've been nuts for a long while now.
MWHistorian wrote: Maybe by "limited edition" they mean "We'll be changing editions really soon so its usefulness is limited?"
Nailed it!
At the end of the day 100$ is still less then most of my textbooks from school, and tbh I enjoy my brb far more than my management of people by people or filmstudies....
I'm actually going to try shopping for my textbooks online versus the college.
But yes, textbooks are friggin expensive and GW looks better than the nearly $200 books I buy to use for only a semester.
In the US textbooks are a tax write-off, nerd toys aren't....big difference. That and textbooks hopefully will equate into higher earnings which GW books won't. Not a great comparison if you're trying to be serious about it.
Actually is it $100 for me, you know being Canadian and all. I still don't understand the massive 20% price difference between here and across the boarder, its like GW is living in the 90s.
I thought Zion was Canadian. I wonder why he put up American prices.
What I don't understand is how we have to pay more than Aussies for some prices. Maybe I saw it wrong, but I thought it was $400 for the Limited edition while Aussies were paying $340. Thing is how come we are paying cheaper for the rule book than the Aussies but they get it chapter for the Limited edition. GW logic I guess.
I also wonder if there will be e-versions for these cards. If there is, I wonder if they shuffle by them selves as well and make them random to choose from.
In the US textbooks are a tax write-off, nerd toys aren't....big difference. That and textbooks hopefully will equate into higher earnings which GW books won't. Not a great comparison if you're trying to be serious about it.
That write off doesn't help during the year when your "job" is "full time student" though. The point was the cost for GW's books is lower than what I pay for my textbooks and I can use them longer (unless GW goes to a 4 month edition plan that is).
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Davor wrote: I thought Zion was Canadian. I wonder why he put up American prices.
The flag next to my name changes when I'm at the college versus home. I'm an American (no, I'm not proud of that fact either).
Of course, it's also possible to pre-order or buy the new rulebook on the release day and be a reasonable human being using a reasonable, rational approach to their spending.
Personally, I see no way that a "wait and see" approach will help me decide if I like 7th edition. I need to read it, digest it, play it and find out for myself.
Nothing about the concept of preordering is rational. It can only burn a consumer. Your "guarantee" a product that will not be of short supply or fear of never restocking (in theory). More so when the product is site unseen.
The cost of the new rules is equal to the rules cost of three other games combined. That's nuts and not rational in the least. Given the track record in the quality of writing for GW in the past six to twelve months, couple with other poor business practices, it is much more rational to take a wait and see approach.
There will be scans, photos, battle reports, tactics talks and more the first month it's out. You can use this to make an informed purchase over that of an impulse. The latter if irrational, the former is rational.
There is too much evidence against paying full price, day eon, for this product by the rational sort. As others have implied, it's not about how much money you have, but how to spend it.
Well, there are a lot of opinions there but not one effective rebuttal of any of my points. There's nothing irrational about immediately buying something you can easily afford when you know you a) will want to try it for yourself and b) will be giving it a try immediately.
Not everyone who disagrees with your OPINIONS is irrational, and I think you're flirting with breaking rule number 1 by suggesting it.
In the US textbooks are a tax write-off, nerd toys aren't....big difference. That and textbooks hopefully will equate into higher earnings which GW books won't. Not a great comparison if you're trying to be serious about it.
That write off doesn't help during the year when your "job" is "full time student" though. The point was the cost for GW's books is lower than what I pay for my textbooks and I can use them longer (unless GW goes to a 4 month edition plan that is).
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Davor wrote: I thought Zion was Canadian. I wonder why he put up American prices.
The flag next to my name changes when I'm at the college versus home. I'm an American (no, I'm not proud of that fact either).
I thought you had the same problem as me. My flag shows up Canadian, but sometimes shows up as an American. Well since we are not Canadain brothers, we are North American brothers then.
So now with 7th coming, is 8th edition being worked on to come out in 18 months? I am joking but being serious here. I mean how much effort did they really put into this?
Anyone hear about FAQs? Will the codices (especially Tyranid) be updated? Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
insaniak wrote: Wound allocation still from the front makes sad panda.
I disagree, front-first removal was one of my favorite changes.
I'm just curious, would you rather go back to 'owner chooses' or have some other system of removal (random for example)? I though the elimination of wound shenanigans based around differently equipped models was a great change.
Maybe the best compromise would be allow the owner to choose which model, but once a wound is allocated all others need to go to that model.
Pretty much - my preferred system is owner chooses, with the requirement to keep allocating to a model once it is wounded to avoid wound-spreading shenanigans. Add in Precision Shots and Torrent of Fire to allow for a little wound control from the shooter, and you're gravy.
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Happygrunt wrote: Hold on a second. There is a "Dark Millennium" book in the 7th ed slipcase, however you can also buy a "dark millennium" book individually online.
Am I seeing this right? Is it possible that purchasing individual books may be possible through GW directly?
The stand-alone book is 'Visions from the Dark Millennium'... different from the Dark Millennium book in the rulebook bundle. It will be either an artbook, or a hardcover catalogue of the studio 40K models.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook.
DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
spartanlegion wrote: I think the "2 yearers" should take a break, or stick with 6th, in their gaming circles for about 2 years...
I can just see the "2 yearers" who are hesitant to buy this 7th edition (thinking the 2 years of 6th has set the standard for GW somehow for 7th editions shelf life), wait 2 years to see if 7th is still around, or 8th is coming, just to discover 7th is still going, and finally buy a 7th edition rule book.
Then they say, "Oh, I guess it is here to stay for awhile." but then 7th lasts 2 more years, making it 4 (God, I hope longer though), and the "2 yearers" cries rise again! "...It only lasted me 2 years!"
Why'd ya wait?
Also, if 8th comes out after 7th is out just 2 years, with the logic of the "2 yearers", 8th would last 2 years too.....So....
I don't see where anyone is making an argument for waiting for two years. You're arguing against something no one's said. At least to my knowledge. Why wait two years? If you like 7th, then get it. If you don't, then don't. If you want to wait and see, you can get a pretty accurate judgement after a month or so.
But, if 2 years is the new cycle, then yes, some people do have a problem with that. Some will suck it up and some will move away. At this stage in GW's game, they shouldn't be doing moves that push people away. They should be doing the opposite in fact.
Arguing over this is pointless. There are lots of people that become attached to things to such a degree that they become almost monomaniacal and snobbish. This can be especially the case in our geek/nerd subculture. "Don't like everything about X...leave." "You didn't start watching until the X season...your opinion is invalid." "You didn't have a team of people using computers to get the tickets to the Con....loser." "You didn't get the limited, faux leather, golden foil embossed edition that has a sticker with a number on the cover...you're not a real fan." "You didn't like the game after the last edition and are wary of the next edition...a pox on you and your house!"
These are just slight exaggerations. (in truth several of them are things that I have actually heard) This is indeed the customer that is the focus of GW's marketing structure and they seem to be pinning their hopes of a good financial report on these people. As garnering enough new customers in a period of two weeks to offset an extended period of poor performance would be an impossibility. You don't get someone who was deliberating buying something to commit by raising the price, changing the product and giving them a few more years to make a decision.
The fact is, it took a little while for the last edition to get past the "new/shiny" phase and people began to get into actual game play. Within a year, after a few codexes came out, the issues became more apparent if not magnified. Many problems were never fixed by the game designers at all (challenge rules not making sense, are ruins area terrain, etc.). It was at about that year point that I stopped playing and began looking for something else to do.
From the looks of things that I have seen or are purported, I am less than hopeful that things have improved, merely changed. I am going to be among those that will be waiting to see how things shake out before I make any purchases. If I waited as long as two years and a new one did or didn't come out what have I lost...nothing. It's not as though I'm sitting in a box all alone with nothing else to do.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook. DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook. DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
ClockworkZion wrote: That write off doesn't help during the year when your "job" is "full time student" though. The point was the cost for GW's books is lower than what I pay for my textbooks and I can use them longer (unless GW goes to a 4 month edition plan that is).
I understand your point but I disagree with it in that textbooks have added, pecuniary benefits as they ultimately lead to a degree which, ideally, will result in higher job earnings. Ideally, the knowledge that you gain from using your textbooks in conjunction with the class will yield benefits throughout your life while GW books...not so much.
I'm a full-time grad student with a full-time job so the tax savings is important to me. Without knowing you personally, I would have no idea if this would be the case for you as well. You can also resell textbooks for nearer to what you paid for them than GW books (as there is no collector value in GW books). Alternatively, you can rent textbooks and unlike GW e-books, e-textbooks are generally much cheaper than their physical counterparts.
Again, not a good comparison as the books serve different purposes. A better comparison would be between GW books and other game manufacturers which, as you probably know, would not put GW in a good light.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook. DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook. DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
Do you have a source for this?
I believe he was being sarcastic
Ah in that case my apologies.
Edit - @ Zweischneid I wasn't questioning whether or not DV was remaining but if there would be a "Free" FAQ for the sixth rulebook.
Davor wrote: Will we get an update for the 6th edition BRB? Reason I ask is if it's a totally new edition, how come DV is not being discontinued?
Yes, there'll be a free FAQ to update the 6th Rulebook.
DV will remain. In the Rulebook there's a tiny red box telling us the future DV boxes will come with the updated mini rulebook.
Edit - @ Zweischneid I wasn't questioning whether or not DV was remaining but if there would be a "Free" FAQ for the sixth rulebook.
In recent memory, GW has never done this; once they leave an edition, it's dead to them and no longer supported. We were all pleasantly surprised when the armies received FAQs when 6th came around.
There will possibly be FAQs for older Codexes. But to "update" the 6th Ed. book to 7th, that would seem like a mighty big FAQ, even if they'd wanted to do it (and only counting the changes we've seen).
But as said, it might be sensible to FAQ Codexes, iron out possible hick-ups with the new Psychic Phase for example, etc..
agnosto wrote: We were all pleasantly surprised when the armies received FAQs when 6th came around.
I'm not sure who 'all' is referring to there... At the very least it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone who was around for the release of 4th or 5th edition, when they did the exact same thing.
A rulebook errata for the new edition would be unlikely, particularly given how large some of the changes are. But updates for the codexes is pretty much standard at this point. The only reason to not expect that to happen would be if they were just scrapping all of the current codexes and starting over.
Zweischneid wrote: There will possibly be FAQs for older Codexes. But to "update" the 6th Ed. book to 7th, that would seem like a mighty big FAQ, even if they'd wanted to do it (and only counting the changes we've seen).
But as said, it might be sensible to FAQ Codexes, iron out possible hick-ups with the new Psychic Phase for example, etc..
Have they...not done this in the past? Have certain codices just been left flapping in the wind with huge unanswered questions to an edition switch?
Zweischneid wrote: There will possibly be FAQs for older Codexes. But to "update" the 6th Ed. book to 7th, that would seem like a mighty big FAQ, even if they'd wanted to do it (and only counting the changes we've seen).
But as said, it might be sensible to FAQ Codexes, iron out possible hick-ups with the new Psychic Phase for example, etc..
Have they...not done this in the past? Have certain codices just been left flapping in the wind with huge unanswered questions to an edition switch?
Well, there have always been FAQs.
That doesn't mean that the FAQs they brought out addressed all the questions they should've addressed
agnosto wrote: We were all pleasantly surprised when the armies received FAQs when 6th came around.
I'm not sure who 'all' is referring to there... At the very least it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone who was around for the release of 4th or 5th edition, when they did the exact same thing.
A rulebook errata for the new edition would be unlikely, particularly given how large some of the changes are. But updates for the codexes is pretty much standard at this point. The only reason to not expect that to happen would be if they were just scrapping all of the current codexes and starting over.
I'll admit to having an faulty memory but I think there was a decided derth of support in that area for some time prior to the release of the edition. Not really important, I'm happy to be incorrect.
Zweischneid wrote: There will possibly be FAQs for older Codexes. But to "update" the 6th Ed. book to 7th, that would seem like a mighty big FAQ, even if they'd wanted to do it (and only counting the changes we've seen).
But as said, it might be sensible to FAQ Codexes, iron out possible hick-ups with the new Psychic Phase for example, etc..
Have they...not done this in the past? Have certain codices just been left flapping in the wind with huge unanswered questions to an edition switch?
Well, there have always been FAQs.
That doesn't mean that the FAQs they brought out addressed all the questions they should've addressed
Looking at the just a -2 BS for Snap Fire my Space Wolves realy will not need Allied AAA Defences between Ven-Riflemen-Dreads and Bjorn with a Las-Cannon.
If I remember correctly, the 6th edition update FAQs were up on release day.
Their FAQ support since then has admittedly been a bit rubbish (and nonexistant for the last year), but they've generally done pretty good with the edition changes.
Anpu42 wrote: Looking at the just a -2 BS for Snap Fire my Space Wolves realy will not need Allied AAA Defences between Ven-Riflemen-Dreads and Bjorn with a Las-Cannon.
I really hope this -2BS is true for poor Bjorns sake
Anpu42 wrote: Looking at the just a -2 BS for Snap Fire my Space Wolves realy will not need Allied AAA Defences between Ven-Riflemen-Dreads and Bjorn with a Las-Cannon.
Mmmm, I have the Venerable option on my Dreadnought as space marine as well... those extra 25pts might be worth it and bring back my 2 nice RifleDread in action... if the rumor is true!
If I remember correctly, the 6th edition update FAQs were up on release day.
Their FAQ support since then has admittedly been a bit rubbish (and nonexistant for the last year), but they've generally done pretty good with the edition changes.
I do wonder if the lack of FAQ support, even by their own low standard, and what could quite conceivably be a very, shall we say, time intensive? turnaround period from 6th to 7th are related?
Still, if the new book addresses a lot of the imbalances and inconsistencies it will have been worth tolerating the last year or so of 6th....
mercury14 wrote: Why bother taking skyfire if flyers get hit on a 5+ by most units?
I speculated earlier that Hard To Hit could remain a straight 6+ or something else (re-roll successful hits?) as there's nothing linking the snap shot and HTH rules right now other than one makes the other happen, the two mechanics could be easily divorced.
mercury14 wrote: Why bother taking skyfire if flyers get hit on a 5+ by most units?
I speculated earlier that Hard To Hit could remain a straight 6+ or something else (re-roll successful hits?) as there's nothing linking the snap shot and HTH rules right now other than one makes the other happen, the two mechanics could be easily divorced.
I hope so. My Crimson Hunters would go from glass cannon to tissue paper cannon. :(
So something like a Vyper though... Looks like it's taking a huge hit.... Right? Night Spinners and Prisms can't even shoot if they jink... (aside from one firing mode on the prism it it snap fires I guess)>
SM speeders... Necron skimmers... Nerf batted hard or am I missing something?
If I remember correctly, the 6th edition update FAQs were up on release day.
Their FAQ support since then has admittedly been a bit rubbish (and nonexistant for the last year), but they've generally done pretty good with the edition changes.
I do wonder if the lack of FAQ support, even by their own low standard, and what could quite conceivably be a very, shall we say, time intensive? turnaround period from 6th to 7th are related?
Still, if the new book addresses a lot of the imbalances and inconsistencies it will have been worth tolerating the last year or so of 6th....
mercury14 wrote: Why bother taking skyfire if flyers get hit on a 5+ by most units?
And since most skyfire weapons have crap S7 strength?
Wouding most FMCs on a 3+ (most are T6) and most flying vehicles which are AV10-11 on a 3+ or 4+ is 'crap'?
Or does everyone use Stormravens these days that I'm not aware of.
When the choice is to wound on a 3+ (with armors save)/glance/pen on a 3+ with skyfire weapons, or wound on a 2+ with no saves and glance/pen on a 1+ with a Lascannon, which would you choose? It is well worth the risk. Especially since flak missiles are overcosted as hell.
ClockworkZion wrote: That write off doesn't help during the year when your "job" is "full time student" though. The point was the cost for GW's books is lower than what I pay for my textbooks and I can use them longer (unless GW goes to a 4 month edition plan that is).
I understand your point but I disagree with it in that textbooks have added, pecuniary benefits as they ultimately lead to a degree which, ideally, will result in higher job earnings. Ideally, the knowledge that you gain from using your textbooks in conjunction with the class will yield benefits throughout your life while GW books...not so much.
I'm a full-time grad student with a full-time job so the tax savings is important to me. Without knowing you personally, I would have no idea if this would be the case for you as well. You can also resell textbooks for nearer to what you paid for them than GW books (as there is no collector value in GW books). Alternatively, you can rent textbooks and unlike GW e-books, e-textbooks are generally much cheaper than their physical counterparts.
Again, not a good comparison as the books serve different purposes. A better comparison would be between GW books and other game manufacturers which, as you probably know, would not put GW in a good light.
The books are an additional cost to the classes I'm paying for to be able to get a better job, so yeah it's a bad comparison, because GW doesn't charge me a couple thousand dollars for a couple months of participation. Regardless when it comes to "how long will I used this" vs "how much it costs" GW isn't as bad as some of the other stuff I've spent money one.
Still doesn't mean I like how much things cost though.
Night Spinners and Prisms can't even shoot if they jink... (aside from one firing mode on the prism it it snap fires I guess)>
I know I must be the only Eldar player that takes Night Spinners, but this really irritates me. I guess I can save 15 points on my Night Spinners now since Holofields will pretty much be superfluous.
Night Spinners and Prisms can't even shoot if they jink... (aside from one firing mode on the prism it it snap fires I guess)>
I know I must be the only Eldar player that takes Night Spinners, but this really irritates me. I guess I can save 15 points on my Night Spinners now since Holofields will pretty much be superfluous.
Yeah but you pretty much have to spend +10 to get a shuricannon now unless you want to do nothing in the shooting phase. :(
Vypers, Spinners, Prisms, Falcons, and Hornets are all getting the shaft. Hard.
mercury14 wrote: Why bother taking skyfire if flyers get hit on a 5+ by most units?
And since most skyfire weapons have crap S7 strength?
Wouding most FMCs on a 3+ (most are T6) and most flying vehicles which are AV10-11 on a 3+ or 4+ is 'crap'?
Or does everyone use Stormravens these days that I'm not aware of.
When the choice is to wound on a 3+ (with armors save)/glance/pen on a 3+ with skyfire weapons, or wound on a 2+ with no saves and glance/pen on a 1+ with a Lascannon, which would you choose? It is well worth the risk. Especially since flak missiles are overcosted as hell.
Rather hit on 4s than 1s, or rather hit on 3s than 5's. What good is one shot at high str if you miss it?
