But with FLG saying no until GW says otherwise america will likely go no. And if some big tournament says no in England then that\s going to be pretty much worldwide standard followed by any big gaming group.
Good thing I hadn\t yet got around getting more than 2 weirdboys. Apart from more than 3 getting banned not even sure would I want 3rd one with this. Expensive smite casters. One for warpath, another as backup plus smite. Good enough.
Yup, we unfortunately have to list build assuming the worst until we hear otherwise, else we risk building around something that could no longer be a valid option.
I don’t get the love for chinorks, they are so weak! Not a hardship for an opponent to shoot them down turn 1. Before the price hike I ran 12 tankbustas in a killtank and it was awesome. It was worth the points investment because it was survivable. Chin orks just seem like giving away easy points.
Lot depend on terrain but if you have enough LOS blocking terrain hide them, then zoom in 24" and fire either rockets or 10 burnas. 24"+weapon range gives them reach anywhere. And unlike killtank it's open topped allowing you to shoot from INSIDE. With killtank you need to move turn 1, then unload turn 2 and then you are in the open. With chinork you can fire from turn 1 onward and before getting to the infantry you have to kill chinork first. Oh and chinork deep strikes removing fear of getting shot down before it gets to shoot.
Oh and for points chinorks gives you 40 wounds vs killtanks 24. Albeit killtank has the FNP and T boost but save is same. And generally 8th ed is numbers>quality.
It’s simple compare chinorks vs trucks to get your 24in range rokkits to thier target or even better your 18in range bomb squigs which are insanely efficient vs vehicles.
Trukk
T6 10w 4+ movement 12/8/6(turbo d6)and ramshackle which means a 6 reduce damage by 1= 82pts and it’s only offense worth buying is a shoota
Chinork
T5 8w 4+ movement 16(turbo +8) and cost 80pts with 2 deff guns and big shoota, iit also has fly which makes it ignore terrain.
So as a transport which is all we buy these vehicles for the chinork is cheaper, has better offense and is reliably faster then the trukk and the difference between t5/t6 is negligible. There are very few str10 shooting weapons and very few str6 shooting. The trade off is 2 less wounds but with the lack of deepstrike plasaguns/meltaguns in the new faq. Hopefully your transports survive the first turn now!!!
(As an added bonus it does d6 mortal wounds when it explodes in your enemy lines)
They're like Trukks; sure, they can deepstrike - but the units inside can't disembark until the next turn, meaning the transport, followed by the units inside, can be removed during the opponents turn; trukks aren't durable, and the units inside doubly so.
Sure, it has some guns - but they're all heavy, meaning they hit on 6+ if the vehicle moves; and that's before any -1 modifiers.
Chinorks seem really difficult to get use out of. That said, maybe the ability to deepstrike them allows you to get some use; they're essential Ork Drop Pods. Also, with the deepstrike changes, maybe they can maneuver into position, for a disembark during the second round?
Chinorks are NOW open topped use them as turn 1 tankbusta gunships. You can move them 16in without loss of shooting ability or 24in if you need to get your tankbustas squigs in range.
Nor does he work for GW so his opinion, though valuable, is not gospel.
They haven't "only received buffs," we've just pointed out two concrete ways in which they've been nerfed. The assault-ruins FAQ and the significant nerf to Da Jump and Kommandos turn 1 charges.
Conversely Storm Boyz received a buff to vertical distance, waaagh, and weirdboys were protected from the psyker nerf.
In less serious news, Grotsnik lost the ability to use dok's tools after super cybork.
You could say that's a "net buff," which I'll just defer to the opinion of an LVO champ, but that's still probably debatable. Does he even play 8E orks?
Outside wobbly model syndrome I’ve been playing ruins that way since 8th started. I’m not sure what you people have been doing? Have you honestly been playing it as your unit can charge anything even if it can’t get within 1in?
That’s not really a nerf that’s how I’ve seen every tournament and game played.
Personally I think we should be allowed to measure ranges from any point on a model. So a monstrous creature can reach the 2nd and sometimes 3rd level of ruins and most infantry can reach the 2nd level. It will solve a decent amount of unchargeable unit issues.
Before this wobbly model syndrome was used to assault stuff. Now instead we have unchargeable stuff even when logically there should be way to fight. Not good.
Wobbly model didn’t mean you could assault anything l. It meant you were afraid your model was going to fall and break. If it doesn’t fit you can’t assault was always then rule.
I’m not sure why people are up in arms about this. It’s not something new. I use wobbly model a lot when my orks surround a unit and is on uneven terrain and I don’t want i the model to fall. It’s not meant to get more models into melee range than can realistically fit.
gungo wrote: Wobbly model didn’t mean you could assault anything l. It meant you were afraid your model was going to fall and break. If it doesn’t fit you can’t assault was always then rule.
I’m not sure why people are up in arms about this. It’s not something new. I use wobbly model a lot when my orks surround a unit and is on uneven terrain and I don’t want i the model to fall. It’s not meant to get more models into melee range than can realistically fit.
Infantry can climb up buildings.
Wobbly model rule let you represent them scaling up the walls to attack; when you couldn't place your model on a vertical/limited surface.
gungo wrote: Wobbly model didn’t mean you could assault anything l. It meant you were afraid your model was going to fall and break. If it doesn’t fit you can’t assault was always then rule.
I’m not sure why people are up in arms about this. It’s not something new. I use wobbly model a lot when my orks surround a unit and is on uneven terrain and I don’t want i the model to fall. It’s not meant to get more models into melee range than can realistically fit.
a) pretty sure previous FAQ even specified wobbly models on ruins representing scaling up. So as it is now it doesn't even make any sense and game needs this thing called "suspension of disbelief".
b) this now is unfair and unbalanced. It's simply too easy to block assaults to top. Objective there and assault armies(especially orks) are basically lol screwed.
As it is this means for terrain to be fair it shouldn't include any multi-level terrain. ESPECIALLY anywhere objectives can go. Which then makes it hard to have LOS blocking terrain which makes shooty gunlines even better. You need huge thin walls now basically. Not particularly most interesting terrain layouts...
^^^ this is correct. The person I play against most is an Eldar player.
Someone please tell me how I'm supposed to remove a group of Alaitoc rangers from a ruin when they occupy all available space?
How do I get to their tanks and jetbikes that can leave combat and park on top of buildings?
It's all well and good saying 'play to da objectifs' but any decent opponent will put their objectives where it hurts you - on ruins covered by their troops that you can't attack.
Someone please tell me how I'm supposed to remove a group of Alaitoc rangers from a ruin when they occupy all available space?
How do I get to their tanks and jetbikes that can leave combat and park on top of buildings?
It's all well and good saying 'play to da objectifs' but any decent opponent will put their objectives where it hurts you - on ruins covered by their troops that you can't attack.
It's a fething awful rule.
Take some flamer weapons and pray like hell they somehow survive...Tall order!
Well the chinork could be some help as that's 32" reaching 10 flamers if you want for ~250 pts. Not sure if that's good enough for TAC but at least those alaitoc rangers those are useful.
Big trakk with 4 skorchas for 176 pts.
Alas we don't have much of effective shooting so if something gets 100% immunity from h2h like these it's tough one.
Lol that's a lot of points for the sake of 70 odd points of rangers! Thanks for the help though, it is appreciated.
I really don't like that there's so many situations where we literally can't do anything. Its extremely bad game design and it was the sort of gak they were supposed to be removing in 8th. Why are they now adding more? Why can't they get it through their idiotic brains that it's not fun or tactical to have a well painted unit of troops sat unable to do anything to anyone.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol that's a lot of points for the sake of 70 odd points of rangers! Thanks for the help though, it is appreciated.
I really don't like that there's so many situations where we literally can't do anything. Its extremely bad game design and it was the sort of gak they were supposed to be removing in 8th. Why are they now adding more? Why can't they get it through their idiotic brains that it's not fun or tactical to have a well painted unit of troops sat unable to do anything to anyone.
I did say not that effective shooting though at least he has to invest some firepower or they keep burning stuff. And burnas might be able to hurt 2 squads if they are close enough.
But yeah not ideal situation. 100% immunity sucks big time. It was bad enough enemy often enough can be 100% immune to our shooting but now they can be immune to h2h? Are we supposed to look evilly at them and hope they leave the objective?
6+ needs to hit regardless of modifiers and this assault ruling needs to go. It's hard enough to rush into combat as it is. Then to find out you even can't charge...
Unless things change terrain needs to be much more flat. Especially on places you can put objectives. Alas this leads to less interesting terrains.
Terrain doesn't need to be more flat, it needs less isolated ledges.
Instead of three sections of floor completely cut off from each other in a ruin there needs to be staircases, fallen collumns or girders etc. which serve to provide access to the different floors.
So you could have a ruined building with a ground, 1st and 2nd floor and then a roof. There's a large fallen collumn from the ground floor to the 1st floor, a crumbling but still substantial staircase from the 1st to the 2nd, then an external fire escape staircase from the 2nd to the roof.
This way there is always some way to get some models into combat as it is impossible to take up all the space due to each level being connected to another level. If someone is hiding on the second you could jump a unit to the top and come down, make your way up through the building or both for a nice pincer attack. The only way to block an enemy getting to that unit on the second floor would be to have units on both the roof and the 1st floor so the enemy has to fight their way through.
And how amazing a story would that be? A unit of scouts guarding the objective they were sent to hold, hearing their comrades above and below screaming and dying as they buy them time with their lives, desperately hoping that their evac can come before they are overrun completely?
My answer to Alaitoc Rangers has been the Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha, with no extra wargear. It's 170 points. I know rangers are 70 points for a 5 man unit, but I'm certain you'll find at least another 100 points of units that the Supa-Skorcha can deal with.
Instead of three sections of floor completely cut off from each other in a ruin there needs to be staircases, fallen collumns or girders etc. which serve to provide access to the different floors.
Problem there is stairways etc can't be more than 1" high. Even 1.1" and you are same as now. And shorter than that stairway to 3"+ height takes quite a width.
gungo wrote: Outside wobbly model syndrome I’ve been playing ruins that way since 8th started. I’m not sure what you people have been doing? Have you honestly been playing it as your unit can charge anything even if it can’t get within 1in?
That’s not really a nerf that’s how I’ve seen every tournament and game played.
Personally I think we should be allowed to measure ranges from any point on a model. So a monstrous creature can reach the 2nd and sometimes 3rd level of ruins and most infantry can reach the 2nd level. It will solve a decent amount of unchargeable unit issues.
Or we could go back to using 3" for determining close combat range in ruins like we did in the past three editions.
Quackzo wrote: My answer to Alaitoc Rangers has been the Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha, with no extra wargear. It's 170 points. I know rangers are 70 points for a 5 man unit, but I'm certain you'll find at least another 100 points of units that the Supa-Skorcha can deal with.
Assuming it doesn't get blown out after dealing with rangers. T6, 4+, 15 wounds isn't toughest thing in the world.
Someone please tell me how I'm supposed to remove a group of Alaitoc rangers from a ruin when they occupy all available space?
The most efficient way is using a skorcha, smite, burna bomb or a crapton of shots to cause one casualty and then have your warboss or other character like Grotsnik or a weird boy move up there and educate them about the viability of camouflage in close combat. Don't try big meks or pain boyz though, they might fail to kill the rangers and die.
You could also just get the nob of some unit up there, but you will need two turns to grind through a unit that is supposed to waste your time. Try to avoid this unless you are multi-charging a second unit as well.
How do I get to their tanks and jetbikes that can leave combat and park on top of buildings?
KMK and Tankbustas mostly, don't forget about the tankbusta bomb. For wave serpents, I have found it best to ignore them unless they deliberately come to close to get charged with a unit of boyz, nobz or Thrakka.
Fire prisms are giving me the most head-aches, but if you can force them to move, they do a lot less damage.
It's all well and good saying 'play to da objectifs' but any decent opponent will put their objectives where it hurts you - on ruins covered by their troops that you can't attack.
Note that you can try to prevent that. If there is a piece of terrain that allows this kind of shenanigans, put an objective in the open right in front of it. Your opponent won't be able to put another objective within 12" of that marker. Against mobile eldar, you won't be able to hold backfield objectives anyways, so might as well just put your objective markers in his half.
Am I missing something with chinork's big bombs? It says it can take 2 of them. Point costs seems to be 0. Really? So basically automatic choices? Don't have CA at hands so maybe they got changed there...
Also would land speeder storm work as base for conversion? Have bunch of deth kopta wrecks so was planning combining those, extending cargo area with plasticard and do twin rotors with plasticards. Sounds like plan? Biggest Q is how to attach deth kopta to the land speeder.
Initial plan is to convert 2. One with deffguns and skorcha, one with big shoota and rattler guns. Yeah that's not best weapons due to heavy and expensive but it's just 22 pts spare and I hate identical kits.
One will be used to carry tank bustas, one burnas.
Will get more when I get more squads that can ride in them meaningfully! Apart from tank bustas and burnas what would be useful? Not boyz. Maybe nobz? Well for those might make 3rd one actually.
Someone please tell me how I'm supposed to remove a group of Alaitoc rangers from a ruin when they occupy all available space?
How do I get to their tanks and jetbikes that can leave combat and park on top of buildings?
It's all well and good saying 'play to da objectifs' but any decent opponent will put their objectives where it hurts you - on ruins covered by their troops that you can't attack.
It's a fething awful rule.
You take a bit of glue and stick the base to a wall within 1' of your enemy's base.
Jidmah wrote:Flash gits are probably better passengers than nobz, as their gun is better than a kustom shoota and costs the same.
and being heavy weapons, they'd kinda tie in with the chinork's guns a little better too eh?
Heavy weapons with BS4+ are very much the same as assault weapons with BS5+.
People need to get the "don't move heavy weapons" out of their head. Flash gits basically get +1 to BS when standing still, just like last edition.
Jidmah wrote: Maybe try cutting of the motor part with the rotor and attach what's left to the front of the speeder?
And yes, bombs are auto-take. They aren't that game-breaking anyways.
Flash gits are probably better passengers than nobz, as their gun is better than a kustom shoota and costs the same.
Well are they game breaking or not isn't point. It's just plain stupid game design to have stuff like "may take up to two bombs" and then have no reason to NOT take. either remove the may or give some reason to not auto take. I hate bad game design.
But good point about flash gits. I was thinking more of swoosh-in unit of nobz with h2h stuff somewhere for T2 assault but flash gits could indeed work as 3rd gunboat. I have 8 of them and would love to field them. Too bad about deep strike limitation. Can't often deep strike in range on T1 generally and that expensive unit doing nothing onT1 sucks. But T1 non-deep strike it can be shot out :(
Jidmah wrote:Flash gits are probably better passengers than nobz, as their gun is better than a kustom shoota and costs the same.
and being heavy weapons, they'd kinda tie in with the chinork's guns a little better too eh?
Heavy weapons with BS4+ are very much the same as assault weapons with BS5+.
People need to get the "don't move heavy weapons" out of their head. Flash gits basically get +1 to BS when standing still, just like last edition.
oh I know that...I was just saying because the chinork's weapons are heavy, so if you want to shoot them, you'll probably not want to move...which would then benefit the flash gitz on board as they would still get their 4+ to hit
Which means the rattler version would be best one to carry flash gits. Dakka dakka dakka dakka. Quite a gunboat. 8 flash git(all I own) plus chinork with rattlers. Dakka dakka dakka dakka!
edit: One idea for potential list for these:
warboss(killchoppa, tenacious survivor)
warboss(power klaw)
weirdboy(either warpath or da jump depending on can da jump be used on T1)
4x30 boyz. klaws and big choppas(at least 2 big choppa)
chinork(skorcha)
chinork(big shoota)
chinork(rattler guns, big shoota)
Ork flying circus so to speak(too bad chinorks don't have the -1 to hit )
Chinork with skorcha gets burnas, burn stuff, maybe assasinate character if enemy is careless, drop bombs. Naked chinork gets tank bustas. Either deep strike next to vehicle or just start on board depending on enemy army. Flashgits on rattler guns.
now that Da jump has been effectively stomped on for 1st turn jumping and we're now limited to 3 weirdboyz in an army is it ever worth building a list with multiple weirdboyz now? My lists have all suffered from this and I have come to the conclusion that Dajump plus warpath is an expensive use of weirdboyz.
Depending on how your group plays Da Jump(seeing it's not clear either way) pretty marginal. Better than 'eadbanger now though. Can be used to grab objectives, clear room to charge maybe sometimes by pulling up unit from combat(this doesn't even count fall backing!) etc. If not just smite.
I find weirdboyz with foot sloggers are great for softening up targets so putting wounds on high toughness. I have a painboy handy to keep one on full health for the d6 smites.
Not sure what is replace them with, and warpath on a big squad of nobz is going to really help out.
I honestly think shunt style abilities such as gate of infinity and da jump will get faq back since they are already limited to one unit a turn. I think the real issue was multiple reserve turn 1 alpha strikes.
I do think weirdboys will get nerfed when the codex comes out with a cap on thier ability to +2 or 3.
However da jump is currently still good for beta strikes or use on mega nobs. Eadbanger is useless on everything but Celestine which we won’t see as often. Warpath is nearly as good as before. And our smite is amazing right now. Reliable d6 mortal wounds is reason enough to bring multiple wierdboys. Most other factions would love to have this ability.
ZoBo wrote: "any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.
Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.
You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.
but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...
So? The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere. If you arrive on the first turn you must deploy in the deployment zone.
Unless you are arguing that units undergoing Da Jump don't deploy, in which case how do you place them on the table?
"The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere."
no, it does not specify that. it does however, specify that the unit must be deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone...which it was. and then you use da jump on it to set it up elsewhere on the table...this is what differentiates it from things like deepstrike and such.
This is great news but someone needs to tell FLG because they seem to think GW told them otherwise.
Unfortunately the wording on the facebook question doesn't actually change anything. The questioner just asked if it was usable as per the new rules and the answer was yes. Unfortunately it is usable but still restricted by the rule.
Problem was gw sloppy writing. Had they deployed units put in reserve during deployment it would have been clear. Instead they wrote units arriving during turn 1 which da jump fullfilled clearly. Only thing suggesting it might not apply was that it was on tactical reserves part but then again actual rule wasn't related to it at all. Just arriving on turn 1 which da jump fit.
Hopefully they put it on somewhere outside fb as that's about as reliable place as "i heard". Anybody even have direct link? Screenshots are worthless as proof
Nithaniel wrote: This is great news but someone needs to tell FLG because they seem to think GW told them otherwise.
Unfortunately the wording on the facebook question doesn't actually change anything. The questioner just asked if it was usable as per the new rules and the answer was yes. Unfortunately it is usable but still restricted by the rule.
Yes, that question sucked.
I asked again much more clearly. What ever answer it is as long as it's clear, if they answer at all.
So kommandos were the only unit nerfed by this faq? Which I think is fine since we still benefit more from other armies being unable to mass reserve manipulation and I found kommandos better as turn 2 or 3 deepstrikers
Nithaniel wrote: This is great news but someone needs to tell FLG because they seem to think GW told them otherwise.
Unfortunately the wording on the facebook question doesn't actually change anything. The questioner just asked if it was usable as per the new rules and the answer was yes. Unfortunately it is usable but still restricted by the rule.
Yeah, I mentioned that later in the original thread. The poor wording of both the question and the response leaves it still up in the air until we get a real official ruling that is worded properly, unfortunately.
Jidmah wrote: Maybe try cutting of the motor part with the rotor and attach what's left to the front of the speeder?
And yes, bombs are auto-take. They aren't that game-breaking anyways.
Flash gits are probably better passengers than nobz, as their gun is better than a kustom shoota and costs the same.
Well are they game breaking or not isn't point. It's just plain stupid game design to have stuff like "may take up to two bombs" and then have no reason to NOT take. either remove the may or give some reason to not auto take. I hate bad game design.
But good point about flash gits. I was thinking more of swoosh-in unit of nobz with h2h stuff somewhere for T2 assault but flash gits could indeed work as 3rd gunboat. I have 8 of them and would love to field them. Too bad about deep strike limitation. Can't often deep strike in range on T1 generally and that expensive unit doing nothing onT1 sucks. But T1 non-deep strike it can be shot out :(
Make sure to add two gretchin as ammo runts for re-rolls and tanking transport deaths.
tneva82 wrote: 0-3 also hurt and ruin immunity to h2h is army wide nerf to orks.
Like I’ve said I’ve never played it or seen it played that way. I’ve always seen it played if you can’t get it in range you can’t assault it.
I’ve even seen it discussed on you make da call and it was raw that you can’t. I think it is a problem but it’s how it was raw since 8th release.
Like what were you guys doing if a vindicare assassin was on top of ruins and your unit of 30 orks charged him but only 1 model could fit but the rest were on the ground floor well out of range and unit coherency? Did you allow this? It’s mind boggling because I’ve never seen anyone play it that way.
0-3 is a small nerf to select builds That MSU a lot but orks are bad at MSU anyway. Our unit sizes tend to be massive number of models.
I haven't seen anybody to play you couldn't as immunity to assault is bad game design nor does it make sense so hurts suspension of disbelief. And 0-3 hurts with mkm's at least. You can't take more than 3 without putting close to each other and can't take brigade plus spearhead or 2 spearhead sensibly any more. And spearhead was our best detachment after battallion. Bat plus 2 spearhead was pretty good
tneva82 wrote: I haven't seen anybody to play you couldn't as immunity to assault is bad game design nor does it make sense so hurts suspension of disbelief. And 0-3 hurts with mkm's at least. You can't take more than 3 without putting close to each other and can't take brigade plus spearhead or 2 spearhead sensibly any more. And spearhead was our best detachment after battallion. Bat plus 2 spearhead was pretty good
Please show me a single tournament since 8th release were a vindicare assassin or anything was on top of ruins and your unit of 30 orks charged him but only 1 model could fit but the rest were on the ground floor well out of range and unit coherency? Did you allow this? It’s mind boggling because I’ve never seen anyone play it that way. You always need to be in range and unit coherency. That’s basic 40k 101.
One of the main tournament winning list was renegade and heretic list or imperial guard all bunched onto a sky shield landing pad making it immune to assault because you couldn’t fit any other models on top..
tneva82 wrote: I haven't seen anybody to play you couldn't as immunity to assault is bad game design nor does it make sense so hurts suspension of disbelief. And 0-3 hurts with mkm's at least. You can't take more than 3 without putting close to each other and can't take brigade plus spearhead or 2 spearhead sensibly any more. And spearhead was our best detachment after battallion. Bat plus 2 spearhead was pretty good
Please show me a single tournament since 8th release were a vindicare assassin or anything was on top of ruins and your unit of 30 orks charged him but only 1 model could fit but the rest were on the ground floor well out of range and unit coherency? Did you allow this? It’s mind boggling because I’ve never seen anyone play it that way. You always need to be in range and unit coherency. That’s basic 40k rules 101.
The problem is, your'e definitely gonna see that behavior a lot more now in this dystopian post faq 8th edition v1.2 world
Again haven't anybody seen it played otherwise. You think i have pics of every game every event?
Immunity to h2h is bad game design both balance and sense. It makes no sense(oo there's enemy there we can reach but let's stay here) while hoses many armies
tneva82 wrote: I haven't seen anybody to play you couldn't as immunity to assault is bad game design nor does it make sense so hurts suspension of disbelief. And 0-3 hurts with mkm's at least. You can't take more than 3 without putting close to each other and can't take brigade plus spearhead or 2 spearhead sensibly any more. And spearhead was our best detachment after battallion. Bat plus 2 spearhead was pretty good
What's an MKM?
If you mean KMK, then I can't agree. 1 data sheet is between 1 and 6 Mek guns + krew. So 3 could be up to 18 of them + Krews. Not very flexible sure. But does it really matter?
I need to read the rules for ruins. Something seems off to me.
Yes 18. You deploy 6 close to each other. You are also prevented from taking 2 spearheads so basically stuck with battalions plus maybe spearhead. Not gigantic nerf plus still nerf.
Bat plus 2 spearhead wasn't bad combo if you had 3-4 boyz mobs for example. No more
tneva82 wrote: Yes 18. You deploy 6 close to each other. You are also prevented from taking 2 spearheads so basically stuck with battalions plus maybe spearhead. Not gigantic nerf plus still nerf.
Bat plus 2 spearhead wasn't bad combo if you had 3-4 boyz mobs for example. No more
I see. I have been thinking a little about this. All I have come up with is, if I were going to take that many KMK's I'd just take a few solo Kannons and Lobbas for their low points costs to fill out what ever need I had left. So 12 KMK's and a Lobba in one and 6 and 2 lobbas in the other. Meh too many points on KMK's lol.
tneva82 wrote: Again haven't anybody seen it played otherwise. You think i have pics of every game every event?
Immunity to h2h is bad game design both balance and sense. It makes no sense(oo there's enemy there we can reach but let's stay here) while hoses many armies
My point wasn’t that it was good game design. My point is it’s always been played this way. If you played fast and loose with your friends or incorrectly allowed charges where your models don’t fit or half your unit was out of coherency that’s just loose casual play. However not one tournament strict rules game I’ve seen has ever allowed broken coherency or assault out of range And there are a lot of games streamed online.
Furthermore this was a legit strat for a while with armies all bunched on top of sky shield landing pads being immune to assault because you couldn’t get in range...
Bad game design sure but it’s not a new faq. It was a question that was clarified because people on you make da call were arguing about it originally and the consensus was no you can’t break the basic game rules to assault just because you want too.
I also don’t see why you have to deploy a unit of mek guns on top of each other considering the mek guns and crew are considered a single unit and you can use the crew to spread out your mek guns across the board. The other good thing about mek gun units is you can spread out the wounds to grot gunners and as long as any friendly grot gunner is close to the kmk it can still fire, but you have to be careful doing this as well as it can Cause issues for you.
If you take heavy support that isn't kmk you are nerffing yourself.
It's not biggest nerf as grots allow cheapish battallion over spearhead but still some
Automatically Appended Next Post: It wasn#t always played. Pre 8th game had good rules to deal with and 8tg wobbly models was used widely to allow it. Only now it's def out. Before it wasn't clear cut and used widely.
As for mek gun if mek gun moves -1 to hit. Self damage on 1-2. Limits repositioning you can do. Plus no more multiple spearheads
Too bad orks are somewhat lacking on viable options which restricts what we can do. There might be something doable with chinork but even that\s seriously dubious. So it\s still same boyz spam and rush forward and hope for best...
grendel083 wrote: The bigger picture is that the meta is shifting, and it seems to favour gun lines. Something that Orks often struggle against.
New tactics, a new approach is once again needed.
If the meta shifts to anti horde people will finally see how relatively week even green tide, our best build, truly is. It's effective only because of how hard it skews, but even against my friends TAC Sisters army he has enough bolter fire that it's always a question of if I win or lose by about 30 boyz. If he were to gear up to kill hordes more than armor, I'd be shot off the board every game no doubt.
But hey maybe if everyone shifts to anti infantry firepower we can just take battlewagons?
Woop! Shame they had to clarify but better to be safe I suppose.
With regards ruins and cqc - you keep coherency vertically over 6" I believe. So what I did was perch my models on the sides of floors or what have you and attack. Its pretty bleak though guys. 5 rangers doesn't seem like anything in cqc vs Orks but when they have pistols that hit on 3+ they become weirdly formidable. I've lost 2 boss Nobs and a Boy to a group of 5 or 6 rangers. My rolling wasn't great but still.
I'm totally with tneva on the ruins thing - a lack of ability to do anything is not fun. It feels like an exploit.
Jidmah - thanks for the help with the Eldar questions too. My opponent runs a Fire Prism and the first thing he kills is the trukk full of tank bustas. Then the tank bustas lol. He also brings a vyper which I find obnoxious. To be fair I take 9 bikes which doesn't help my case lol
I hope we get more than green tide + kmk as possible lists in codex peeps. I'm getting real bored of it.
a) that question was so lousy followed by such an ambious answer that it doesn't actually say you can deep strike outside DZ. Note outside DZ is NEVER mentioned in either question nor answer. What it uses is "benefit" BUT you benefit from those abiltiies if you can cast them. Even if you can't go outside your deployment zone.
b) this comes from warhammer community team which as they say themselves IS NOT OFFICIAL! Their word has zero official status. They are no better than HIWPI answers.
Finally please rather than screenshot provide direct link. a) that's easier for you b) that at least makea it bit better(though point b above still makes it not conclusive) than screenshot that's 0% useless as evidence. For why look screenshot I provided. (yes it's fake. That's my point. It's ridiculously easy to make fake screenshots which is why I hate screenshots as "evidence". Those are useless. Doesn't even require particularly advanced skills or equipments. Everybody has all they need in form of web browser)
So currently we have officially is what FAQ says which is ambigious and HIWPI from warhammer community team who aren't official rule answerers.
Guys please. Just stop. At this point you're either trolling or embarrassing yourselves, neither of which is cool. The rule has always been clear, I don't know how it was misinterpreted in the first place.
The facebook answer is so abundantly clear in terms of using da jump to appear anywhere turn one that to deny it is to make yourself look silly. Stop.
You don't need a link. You don't need to verify the screenshot. You need to take your hands and slap them across your face a couple of times to wake up.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Guys please. Just stop. At this point you're either trolling or embarrassing yourselves, neither of which is cool. The rule has always been clear, I don't know how it was misinterpreted in the first place.
The facebook answer is so abundantly clear in terms of using da jump to appear anywhere turn one that to deny it is to make yourself look silly. Stop.
You don't need a link. You don't need to verify the screenshot. You need to take your hands and slap them across your face a couple of times to wake up.
a) rule was not clear in the first place. Rule trigger was arriving on battlefield. That is fullfilled with Da Jump
b) this answer comes from 100% unofficial source. THEY THEMSELVES say so. It's as official as my answers are.
c) even as unofficial answer this doesn't actually allow jumping outside DZ.
And if I don't have link how can I show to opponent if they disagree? Which is their right if they don'¨t know since original rule(which btw still is only OFFICIAL thing we have to go for) is 100% unclear. So without actual link I can't prove even "How I Would Play It" answer of this unofficial source. Screenshots would be 100% useless as only idiot accepts screen shot as official proof on anything.
Seeing how much players pay to GW to play their games wouldn't be too much to ask for CLEAR rules in OFFICIAL source. This is neither clear answer nor clear original rule and 100% absolutely NOT official. Source themselves have said their answers are NOT official rule answers.
Personally, since it seems most players are thinking gunline is the way to go. I'm thinking siege list. Lots of armed transports and big tanks. Rush forward and smash da line with the vehicles and then assault them.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Guys please. Just stop. At this point you're either trolling or embarrassing yourselves, neither of which is cool. The rule has always been clear, I don't know how it was misinterpreted in the first place.
The facebook answer is so abundantly clear in terms of using da jump to appear anywhere turn one that to deny it is to make yourself look silly. Stop.
You don't need a link. You don't need to verify the screenshot. You need to take your hands and slap them across your face a couple of times to wake up.
a) rule was not clear in the first place. Rule trigger was arriving on battlefield. That is fullfilled with Da Jump
b) this answer comes from 100% unofficial source. THEY THEMSELVES say so. It's as official as my answers are.
c) even as unofficial answer this doesn't actually allow jumping outside DZ.
And if I don't have link how can I show to opponent if they disagree? Which is their right if they don'¨t know since original rule(which btw still is only OFFICIAL thing we have to go for) is 100% unclear. So without actual link I can't prove even "How I Would Play It" answer of this unofficial source. Screenshots would be 100% useless as only idiot accepts screen shot as official proof on anything.
Seeing how much players pay to GW to play their games wouldn't be too much to ask for CLEAR rules in OFFICIAL source. This is neither clear answer nor clear original rule and 100% absolutely NOT official. Source themselves have said their answers are NOT official rule answers.
Dude if someone disagrees with you after you show them the screenshot you start packing up your gak and find another opponent because you are playing the saddest, most beardy mcbeardyson ever to exist. There's some opponent's you'd rather not play at all with. You just described them.
A 2 minute search on fb reveals the screenshot to be legit.
At this point I would not be surprised if they do in fact nerf "da jump" to mean that, and that you can't use it after turn 3 because you are arriving from reserves apparently. GW does there absolute best to Feth over orkz as much as they can.
This reminds me exactly of the battlewagon nonsense that they FAQd last year. Can BWs ability convey to passengers...you know....to make the BW remotely worth taking? GW: No. Suck it orkz.
I had a thought about that unassaultable unit on the first floor, above ground floor. If my charging mode way tall enough it shouldn't need to move up to the floor they are standing on, just end it's charge move within an inch. So if the floor that unit is on isn't all that high I could charge them with a Deff Dread. As long as my model ends it's move within an inch.
Am I way off on that? Or is this exactly what the faq is preventing?
What about using mob up on units coming out of Trukks/Battlewagons?
Has anyone tried this strategem on Boyz mobs? How effective is it?
I have. In my last game I had 12 boys in one trukk and 10 in the next trukk with another 10 in yet another trukk. I saved that third trukkfull for a later mob up or to go off and do what ever.
My only issue was the area I was in was congested with terrain and enemy transports so I couldn't bring the full numbers into combat as I had planned for. Mob up is fairly killer. I've used it well with Kommandos before. 15 + 10 charge and the next turn mob in survivors from other Kommandos in the next closest mob. It keep up a strong LD bubble.
I planed my list around mobbing up before a charge and trying to put war path on those boys.
Mob up can also be nice to "sling-shot" a unit that is further away into combat by joining a unit that's closer to enemy lines. I often find I have a unit of boyz lagging behind while another is further up and has taken significant casualties to bring it to 10 or below. the mob up can bring the larger mob into play and buffer the small mob. works well with far-flung squads that can be da jumped in and not have to worry about the 9" charge because they can attach to the closer unit
warhead01 wrote: I had a thought about that unassaultable unit on the first floor, above ground floor. If my charging mode way tall enough it shouldn't need to move up to the floor they are standing on, just end it's charge move within an inch. So if the floor that unit is on isn't all that high I could charge them with a Deff Dread. As long as my model ends it's move within an inch.
Am I way off on that? Or is this exactly what the faq is preventing?
Your BASE needs to be within 1". So if enemy base is 1.1" taller than your base you can't attack it. Doesn't matter that your deff dreadnought's claws are literally touching the enemy!
Funnily enough if dreadnoughts didn't come with base suddenly measurements would be from hull so you could attack...
Ditto for just basic infantry. Have platform where top is 1.1"+height of base and you can stand there freely and the enemy next to you cannot attack without guns or having non-base vehicle(like land raider/battlewagon) charging into combat.
"Dude if someone disagrees with you after you show them the screenshot you start packing up your gak and find another opponent because you are playing the saddest, most beardy mcbeardyson ever to exist. There's some opponent's you'd rather not play at all with. You just described them."
Oh ok, so you'll just concede to them in tournament. GG easy win...
No one is talking about this for friendly games...
tneva82 wrote: Again haven't anybody seen it played otherwise. You think i have pics of every game every event?
Immunity to h2h is bad game design both balance and sense. It makes no sense(oo there's enemy there we can reach but let's stay here) while hoses many armies
My point wasn’t that it was good game design. My point is it’s always been played this way. If you played fast and loose with your friends or incorrectly allowed charges where your models don’t fit or half your unit was out of coherency that’s just loose casual play. However not one tournament strict rules game I’ve seen has ever allowed broken coherency or assault out of range And there are a lot of games streamed online.
Furthermore this was a legit strat for a while with armies all bunched on top of sky shield landing pads being immune to assault because you couldn’t get in range...
How does that even work? Pretty much every ork army worth anything has one or two weird boyz. You smite a hole into whatever is standing on top of the ruin/landing pad and put your charging model there.
I really don't get how anything becomes "immune" to assault unless it's a single model standing on a very small platform.
tneva82 wrote: Again haven't anybody seen it played otherwise. You think i have pics of every game every event?
Immunity to h2h is bad game design both balance and sense. It makes no sense(oo there's enemy there we can reach but let's stay here) while hoses many armies
My point wasn’t that it was good game design. My point is it’s always been played this way. If you played fast and loose with your friends or incorrectly allowed charges where your models don’t fit or half your unit was out of coherency that’s just loose casual play. However not one tournament strict rules game I’ve seen has ever allowed broken coherency or assault out of range And there are a lot of games streamed online.
Furthermore this was a legit strat for a while with armies all bunched on top of sky shield landing pads being immune to assault because you couldn’t get in range...
How does that even work? Pretty much every ork army worth anything has one or two weird boyz. You smite a hole into whatever is standing on top of the ruin/landing pad and put your charging model there.
I really don't get how anything becomes "immune" to assault unless it's a single model standing on a very small platform.
You go to platform, enemy cannot assault you, you just became immune to assault. Explained many times. There's even pictures showing how it is. You just need ~1.3" high platform on which to stand and you are safe from assaults. Note not even dramatically high ruin or something. Barely taller than your models is sufficient.
Dude if someone disagrees with you after you show them the screenshot you start packing up your gak and find another opponent because you are playing the saddest, most beardy mcbeardyson ever to exist. There's some opponent's you'd rather not play at all with. You just described them.
A 2 minute search on fb reveals the screenshot to be legit.
Disagreeing with screenshot of unofficial "How I would Play it" answer...Well I can of course pack it but then again in tournaments that means automatic loss. Not to mention that answer doesn't even allow deep striking outside deployment zone on turn 1. And again that answer has zero official value. I repeat. IT IS NOT OFFICIAL. I can't use it as evidence as to why I can. It's house rule of that guy. It's not official answer whatsoever. It's no different than asking opinion of anybody in the forums here. Absolutely not useful when you are playing in enviroment where games are expected to play by the actual rules rather than by house rules.
It...is...not...official. Do you understand difference between words official and unofficial? That answer comes from source who themselves have said to not treat them as official source for rules.
I can live either way(orks are boned anyway rules wise) but what I want is OFFICIAL word one way or another so I don't have to go over this(and many other equally bonker screwups by GW) with every new player I face. Clear official rules shouldn't be too hard to ask from company that makes up tons of money. They could easily afford to hire one guy to go over the rules and spot the screwups the designers seems to be unable to avoid. Writing the deep strike rule so that it would be 100% clear either way would have been child's play.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "Dude if someone disagrees with you after you show them the screenshot you start packing up your gak and find another opponent because you are playing the saddest, most beardy mcbeardyson ever to exist. There's some opponent's you'd rather not play at all with. You just described them."
Oh ok, so you'll just concede to them in tournament. GG easy win...
No one is talking about this for friendly games...
Talk to a TO. If the TO rules this contrary to what a GW employee is saying then its on them.
Also rvd I hate to break this to you buddy but if you decided to play Orks to win a load of massive, high level tournaments you chose the wrong army. We're never top of the top tier, by design
Dude if someone disagrees with you after you show them the screenshot you start packing up your gak and find another opponent because you are playing the saddest, most beardy mcbeardyson ever to exist. There's some opponent's you'd rather not play at all with. You just described them.
A 2 minute search on fb reveals the screenshot to be legit.
Disagreeing with screenshot of unofficial "How I would Play it" answer...Well I can of course pack it but then again in tournaments that means automatic loss. Not to mention that answer doesn't even allow deep striking outside deployment zone on turn 1. And again that answer has zero official value. I repeat. IT IS NOT OFFICIAL. I can't use it as evidence as to why I can. It's house rule of that guy. It's not official answer whatsoever. It's no different than asking opinion of anybody in the forums here. Absolutely not useful when you are playing in enviroment where games are expected to play by the actual rules rather than by house rules.
It...is...not...official. Do you understand difference between words official and unofficial? That answer comes from source who themselves have said to not treat them as official source for rules.
I can live either way(orks are boned anyway rules wise) but what I want is OFFICIAL word one way or another so I don't have to go over this(and many other equally bonker screwups by GW) with every new player I face. Clear official rules shouldn't be too hard to ask from company that makes up tons of money. They could easily afford to hire one guy to go over the rules and spot the screwups the designers seems to be unable to avoid. Writing the deep strike rule so that it would be 100% clear either way would have been child's play.
Tournaments = show it a TO as above, don't even show your opponent.
I know the meaning of 'unofficial' and 'official' believe it or not. Since the argument to stop da jump out of deployment zone was so weak and has virtually no credence to begin with I would suggest that even an 'unofficial' response will settle most opponents down.
Or you can choose not to play until an official clarification comes out. Or you can play that you can't da jump outside of deployment on turn 1 if you'd rather not have the drama. I'm not here to tell anyone how to play, I'm simply stating that the intent of GW is clear anyway (to me) and this extra bit of information just adds a ton of weight to that argument. FLG and Nick Nanavati are great players for sure and have a wealth of knowledge, but I somehow doubt they know more than GW employees themselves. Let them play how they want to, they already play a different version of 40k, I'll play as GW state the game is to be played though, whether that's through official or unofficial channels.
if we're talking about "official vs unofficial"...this whole stinkin' mess is based off questionable interpretation of BETA RULES...as in not finished/final...why are we treating that as official?
ZoBo wrote: if we're talking about "official vs unofficial"...this whole stinkin' mess is based off questionable interpretation of BETA RULES...as in not finished/final...why are we treating that as official?
Those comes from official source. Facebook posts comes from source who themselves say "don't treat our word as official".
Thus anywhere that uses beta rules(which will be pretty much everywhere) facebook post cannot be used as evidence. Why? Because it's not official.
Beta rules meanwhile are from official source so no wonder if they are used(which they will be virtually everywhere) those are valid sources for using to determine how the rules are to be used.
It's really simple. Official: It's valid source. Unofficial: It's house rule. Just because I have house rule that says windows don't allow LOS through ruin doesn't mean others are expected to follow it. In same way facebook dude's house rules(which the answer is) aren't universally used so unless players agree on that house rule it's not usable.
And I don't want to spend tons of time figuring out through house rules for all the various screw ups GW has done with their rules. What I want is good clear rules so that when I get to play I can start playing RIGHT AWAY rather than first spend time going through what house rules are to be used now. When for example your weekly game you have ~2 hours to play 2k game with orks I DON'T HAVE TIME TO WASTE.
GW makes millions. Is it too much to ask for them to provide clear offiial rules? That's not too much to ask now is it? Or do you ENJOY having badly written(without even considering how balanced/fun rules. Just on technical aspect of it) rules?
The problem isn't can Da Jump be used or not. Either way I can deal with it. Yes and hey I can do it. Yey. Nice. No? Well orks are boned anyway so this won't actually affect result of game either way. BUT clear official rules are something GW should be expected to provide. Anything else is simply them being lazy and greedy. Out of millions of profit per year how much they would have to sacrifice one guy going through rules to tighten up wordings? 50,000£? (if they want to get cheaper sack one developer and replace with somebody who can actually write rules well from the get-go so you don't need to hire yet another to go through texts later)
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rvd1ofakind wrote: Yes the argument was so weak that all these guys saw it that way:
A major tournament TO FLG Nick Nanavati
LVO judge staff
etc...
It came down to this: Location of rule is in tactical reserves. This is the arqument for "yes it can be used". However actual rule text said it applies to units that arrive on battlefield on turn 1 which Da Jump etc most definitely 100% fullfill.
Thus it comes down to question is title of section more important than actual rule text.
That rule was soooo easy to write clearly either way how even GW managed to botch it is mind boggling.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yes the argument was so weak that all these guys saw it that way:
A major tournament TO FLG Nick Nanavati
LVO judge staff
etc...
NEWSFLASH! Person is position of authority and knowledge makes knee jerk reaction to something causing chaos and confusion! If only this had happened before so we could have learnt a lesson from it. Oh wait....
Their opinion is there's. Good for them. I watched the Nick Nanavati Facebook stream, asked a few questions too. He didn't strike me as someone who had read the argument around this thoroughly, I believe his thoughts are focused on list building and the meta change. In his later article he says that Ork bikes might be back and that we 'only got buffed'. Completely disregarding the massive issue around combat on terrain. Pablo does not think that da jump can't be used turn 1 outside of deployment zone, so it looks like FLG was split on the ruling on this too.
Regardless your statement is kinda pointless. Gw are the people responsible for the rules and they have all but said you can da jump wherever you like turn 1.
Now the bikers became a viable Option thanks to the Warboss Aura. What do you think?
Are the bikers + stormboyz enough for a first turn Charge to build up some pressure? And then, on turn 2 bring in the chinorks and Kommandos?
How people keep getting first turn charges so easily? 12+3.5+7=way less than 24". Even warbike shouldn't be getting in easily if opponent isn't careless. Is there something I'm missing that gives extra speed besides advance?
Now the bikers became a viable Option thanks to the Warboss Aura. What do you think?
Are the bikers + stormboyz enough for a first turn Charge to build up some pressure? And then, on turn 2 bring in the chinorks and Kommandos?
How people keep getting first turn charges so easily? 12+3.5+7=way less than 24". Even warbike shouldn't be getting in easily if opponent isn't careless. Is there something I'm missing that gives extra speed besides advance?
Yea bikes move 14". 14+3.5+7=24.5".
Stormboyz are better because you can use mob up to sling stragglers forward if a unit bombs its advance roll.
Bikers have become better but they're still exceptionally overpriced. It could theoretically be a thing to help out the first 30 boyz but i'd not put my money on an opponent placing something valueable on the front edge of his deployment zone all the time. And it's the only case this tactics work.
I'd say that it's situationally useful but don't build an army around it. Bikers won't kill anything meaningful and won't be able to tie up the enemy cause they won't be able to surround the unit, so you'll just loose a bunch of points for no good reason if something goes slightly wrong.
I've pulled turn 1 stormboy charges a couple times but ended up with a bunch of dead stormboyz in exchange of a couple wounds to vehicles here and there.
I wonder if Meganobz have more of a place with the FAQ changes? They're slow as all hell, that's their issue but they can definitely absorb fire as they trundle up the field.
Now the bikers became a viable Option thanks to the Warboss Aura. What do you think?
Are the bikers + stormboyz enough for a first turn Charge to build up some pressure? And then, on turn 2 bring in the chinorks and Kommandos?
How people keep getting first turn charges so easily? 12+3.5+7=way less than 24". Even warbike shouldn't be getting in easily if opponent isn't careless. Is there something I'm missing that gives extra speed besides advance?
Think about it this way: A bike has a 50% chance of charging something 27" away on its first turn, with both Waaagh and Ere we go. For Stormboyz that drops to about 25", (28" if they deploy from a transport in their first turn). Those are not reliable first-turn charges, but they are good enough that you will pull them off from time to time.
Secondly, a lot of people will underestimate their threat range. They will look at the Stormboyz statsheet and think, okay they move 12", and then they will be surprised when the stormboyz charge something 25" away from their starting point.
Thirdly if you cannot charge something in turn one, stormboyz usually has enough movement to find someplace without line of sight to the enemy, where they can shelter for a reliable 2nd turn charge.
The downside to bikes has been discussed at length: Warbikes are essentially boyz, but much more expensive. They have mediocre durability against small-arms, but they will be utterly annihilated by overcharged plasma. And overcharged plasma is everywhere.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I wonder if Meganobz have more of a place with the FAQ changes? They're slow as all hell, that's their issue but they can definitely absorb fire as they trundle up the field.
Unfortunately they are not very durable. Any antitank weapon will kill more points per shot when targeting Meganobz than when targeting a Leman Russ, Vindicator or Wave Serpent.
On the other hand, they are not really slow as hell. With Ere We Go and Waaag, Meganobz can run across the field and on their second turn, they will charge something 24" way, 50% of the time. 4+4+2D6 is 15", and 50% to make the 9" charge. That is a lot quicker than most people expect from a unit with 4" of movement.
How does that even work? Pretty much every ork army worth anything has one or two weird boyz. You smite a hole into whatever is standing on top of the ruin/landing pad and put your charging model there.
I really don't get how anything becomes "immune" to assault unless it's a single model standing on a very small platform.
You go to platform, enemy cannot assault you, you just became immune to assault. Explained many times. There's even pictures showing how it is. You just need ~1.3" high platform on which to stand and you are safe from assaults. Note not even dramatically high ruin or something. Barely taller than your models is sufficient.
Yet again. I kill one or two of those models on the platform. There is now room to place my warboss/daemon prince/hive tyrant/tau fire warrior onto the platform without any part of it's base hanging off the landing pad.
What exactly is preventing me from assaulting them?
pismakron wrote: Unfortunately they are not very durable. Any antitank weapon will kill more points per shot when targeting Meganobz than when targeting a Leman Russ, Vindicator or Wave Serpent.
On the other hand, they are not really slow as hell. With Ere We Go and Waaag, Meganobz can run across the field and on their second turn, they will charge something 24" way, 50% of the time. 4+4+2D6 is 15", and 50% to make the 9" charge. That is a lot quicker than most people expect from a unit with 4" of movement.
Are you sure on the anti-tank weapon comparison? A single lascannon can conceivably kill a Meganob but it can't kill a Leman Russ, Vindicator or Wave Serpent? How is this comparison made?
I agree they're quicker than people expect with WAAAGHHH!! buff but we're making 2 big assumptions here - one is that the enemy units are exactly 24" away and the other is that they want to get in to combat with the unit that is closest at all. Using Meganobz to clear a screen is not using Meganobz correctly. I'm thinking stick them in cover turn 1 so they get a better save vs -AP weaponry then Da Jump them to bypass the screen and start nailing tanks. Obviously if everyone can agree we can Da Jump turn 1 is that a possible use for them? Combined with Trukk Bustas to help with other vehicles and some Storm Boyz for the screen to try and give them a first turn scare?
pismakron wrote: Think about it this way: A bike has a 50% chance of charging something 27" away on its first turn, with both Waaagh and Ere we go. For Stormboyz that drops to about 25", (28" if they deploy from a transport in their first turn). Those are not reliable first-turn charges, but they are good enough that you will pull them off from time to time.
So enemy deploys 3.5" away.
Secondly, a lot of people will underestimate their threat range. They will look at the Stormboyz statsheet and think, okay they move 12", and then they will be surprised when the stormboyz charge something 25" away from their starting point.
My IG will be more like bit over 28" away...Stormtroopers will be looking to roll 10" even on max advance.
Thirdly if you cannot charge something in turn one, stormboyz usually has enough movement to find someplace without line of sight to the enemy, where they can shelter for a reliable 2nd turn charge.
That's what I do if possible though the way 8th ed LOS rules work out that's very rare. Hiding 25 stormboyz when tiniest 1mm sliver visible through window or something is visible from foot of shooter is bloody hard
The thing is that the buff also affects a warboss on warbike and other characters on warbikes (painboy and big mek). Those too could also Keep up with stormboyz providing some aura effects for durability. Of course it cost some Points but it builds up for some nice pressure on your Opponent. Then on turn 2 you bring in the kommandoz and you Keep jumping boyz. That will considerably reduce mobility of your enemy leaving time and space to camp on objectives.
Rather than kommandos just get boyz. you are looking at reliable turn 3 charge with kommando's anyway so might just as well do it with boyz. Who will hit harder and be more survivable due to there being 50% more of them.
I do not want to pay 50% more for turn 3 kommando charge.
tneva82 wrote: Rather than kommandos just get boyz. you are looking at reliable turn 3 charge with kommando's anyway so might just as well do it with boyz. Who will hit harder and be more survivable due to there being 50% more of them.
I do not want to pay 50% more for turn 3 kommando charge.
Of course there will be boyz. The good Thing about Kommandos is their versatilitym maybe I do no Need to Charge but secure an objective...
What about using mob up on units coming out of Trukks/Battlewagons?
Has anyone tried this strategem on Boyz mobs? How effective is it?
Its pretty damn effective. Personally, Its what I ran at a local tournament recently and it did great. I ran 2 trucks. 1 with 12 boyz and the other with 10 boyz in it with a warboss. Hopped out, advanced, mob up and charged. Because the boyz are 20+ they get a bonus attack. (4 attacks per) That gave me 8 pk attacks from that squad. You can push that number up higher but its really good. I think its the way to play orks. Always try to get as many buffs for attacks on the boyz as you can. Get up to 5-6 and you can kill almost anything in the game with a mob.
What about using mob up on units coming out of Trukks/Battlewagons?
Has anyone tried this strategem on Boyz mobs? How effective is it?
Its pretty damn effective. Personally, Its what I ran at a local tournament recently and it did great. I ran 2 trucks. 1 with 12 boyz and the other with 10 boyz in it with a warboss. Hopped out, advanced, mob up and charged. Because the boyz are 20+ they get a bonus attack. (4 attacks per) That gave me 8 pk attacks from that squad. You can push that number up higher but its really good. I think its the way to play orks. Always try to get as many buffs for attacks on the boyz as you can. Get up to 5-6 and you can kill almost anything in the game with a mob.
What else did you take out of interest?
I've done a similar build but with double the units and it always felt risky because if I lost a few Boyz on the charge I'd be back to 3 attacks per which is a big hit on our damage output.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I wonder if Meganobz have more of a place with the FAQ changes? They're slow as all hell, that's their issue but they can definitely absorb fire as they trundle up the field.
I've tried fielding footslogging meganobz. Every time i did this, i wish i would have just taken more boyz. They simply don't work because suddenly any weapon with ap or multiple damage in your opponent's arsenal gets an ideal target.
And even if you get there, meganob'z damage output is quite underwhelming. You won't be nailing tanks left and right with meganobz. Be happy if you manage to wreck a single rhino with 5 killsaw ones. Yeah, boyz are plain better.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I wonder if Meganobz have more of a place with the FAQ changes? They're slow as all hell, that's their issue but they can definitely absorb fire as they trundle up the field.
I've tried fielding footslogging meganobz. Every time i did this, i wish i would have just taken more boyz. They simply don't work because suddenly any weapon with ap or multiple damage in your opponent's arsenal gets an ideal target.
And even if you get there, meganob'z damage output is quite underwhelming. You won't be nailing tanks left and right with meganobz. Be happy if you manage to wreck a single rhino with 5 killsaw ones. Yeah, boyz are plain better.
Its sadly the same thing with our vehicles, war bikes, or walkers, all you have done is taken up more points with a vehicle that could be used for a boyz mob and have given the enemy a prime target for their anti-tank weapons, of which there will be many. The only reason, and I do mean the ONLY REASON we do reasonably well in tournaments right now is because we are a horde army in a competitive META filled with vehicles, Primarchs and monstrous creatures.
Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
So even though that picture above clearly shows their intent (not to mention this is BETA rules after all), nothing short of it being printed out on the Big FAQ will make the Jump work for you? Seems like its more of an issue with you having obtuse opponents rather than the rules team being the main problem.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
So even though that picture above clearly shows their intent (not to mention this is BETA rules after all), nothing short of it being printed out on the Big FAQ will make the Jump work for you? Seems like its more of an issue with you having obtuse opponents rather than the rules team being the main problem.
Correct. This needs to be in the FAQ, not a two-bit promo facebook post. Why is this so hard for you to get?
Dude tneva clock the link. They literally said this was written by the rules studio. It’s legit.
Any unit that is deployed on the board and uses any ability to move after the game begins is good to good.
I don't know why I'm bothering honestly, because hurdur it's just a screenshot, hurdur it's just the GW facebook team, hurdur whatever other random excuse I can think of...nevertheless, read the comments
There are a lot of abilities that are allowed to move outside your deployment zone turn 1. All psychic powers, most strategem , several abilities/items/effects and all genestealers. As long as you deploy on the board first you can port to anywhere on the table. However you have to deploy without knowing if you go first or second. This only limits units with traditional deepstrike from reserves which includes kommandos. Which do have a purpose as turn 2+ objective grabbers.
I think the rules are good and address the issue with heavy alpha strike armies or the old 7th edition entire drop pod army null deploy nonsense. However drop pods are basically useless now and should have some form of exception to this rule or drop the price significantly.
I'm super glad I have something to point to now. I've lost this argument in a tournament before (Da Jump counts as reserves) and obviously I want to Da Jump turn 1.
I'll say one thing though, that facebook direct quote from the studio is exactly the reason why we had this issue: "treat these units as having arrived from reserves" is shorthand for "these units can not move again for any reason and count as moved when firing heavy weapons". That's honestly quite arbitrary. Being treated like reserves has huge implications; however, being unable to move again is extremely clear and narrow in its implications. They should not be used interchangeably IMO.
I guess I'm just kinda on the same mental wavelength as whoever worded that FAQ...it's intention was always perfectly clear to me
...that said, me and my particular mental wavelength are also not in charge of wording official rules for a ravenous mob of overly pedantic rules lawyers...and frankly, I wouldn't want to be
...basically, they really should hire an overly pedantic rules-lawyer type, to go over this stuff, and report back on the myriad of ways it can be misread and loopholed, and generally unfeth it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
Directly at you.. just you, nobody else.. Explain to me how models from a transport can legally disembark outside of your own deployment zone on turn 1.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
OK. Some people aren't worth arguing with. You are one of those people.
You can wait for 'official' confirmation while the rest of us play the game. This community is unreal. Genuinely.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Oh would you look at that. GW clarifies further what it shouldn't have had to in the first place. Man imagine how many more models we'd get out of GW if they didn't have to waste their time doing gak like this.
Tneva and the rest of the no da jump brigade you happy now?
Nope. Because problem still remains. Only OFFICIAL word currently is the beta rules which doesn't say clearly one way or other. Then we have posts from source which notes themselves they are not official. Thus if opponent wants to say "no" for my Da Jump I have no official source.
Unlike you I don't claim to know rule writers meaning better than they. And so far all we have from the rule writers is the beta rules which is very unclear on the matter which can't be used to prove either way.
Unofficial source does not proof make. I need proof if I want to be sure to be able to use Da Jump.
And btw I haven't claimed it's no for sure. What I have been saying it's not clear either way and can be read either way. I WANT it to be yes. I think it was intended to be yes. BUT RULES AS WRITTEN ARE UNCLEAR ON THE MATTER! And so far we have no official source clearing up meaning if I'm in enviroment where RAW is important unofficial house rules don't cut it. Expecting opponents to have to follow FB teams house rules is same as claiming they should follow my or your house rules as well.
OK. Some people aren't worth arguing with. You are one of those people.
You can wait for 'official' confirmation while the rest of us play the game. This community is unreal. Genuinely.
I really feel one of the problems on Dakka is we have a percentage of the community that are not really playing the game, just talking about it.
How are your guys' experiences with the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
I've seen it pop up in a few lists; I don't like that it doesn't have a "mobile fortress" style rule for itself, as the heavy guns that you have to pay for go to a 6+ if it ever moves (which, why wouldn't it...?). Add in the fact that those same heavy guns are entirely random in number of shots; its just... not fun to use. There's a difference between hoping you get more hits above average (Shoota Boyz), and knowing that you need to roll high on number of shots coupled with 6's to hit.
How about the [baby] Squiggoth?
I've always wanted to run a Snakebites Klan army, so squiggoths are natural fits.
fe40k wrote: How are your guys' experiences with the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
I've seen it pop up in a few lists; I don't like that it doesn't have a "mobile fortress" style rule for itself, as the heavy guns that you have to pay for go to a 6+ if it ever moves (which, why wouldn't it...?). Add in the fact that those same heavy guns are entirely random in number of shots; its just... not fun to use. There's a difference between hoping you get more hits above average (Shoota Boyz), and knowing that you need to roll high on number of shots coupled with 6's to hit.
How about the [baby] Squiggoth?
I've always wanted to run a Snakebites Klan army, so squiggoths are natural fits.
I haven't gotten my gargantuan built and painted yet, so I can't tell you how that plays...but I've run a normal squiggoth a couple of times, and so far it's wound up getting shot to near-uselessness by the time it reaches the enemy...mind you, this was several months ago, when I was still pretty new with 8th, and I've played a lot more games since then...might have to try it again to see if it was chiefly a user-error problem
...that said, for some reason in that game I decided to stick a squad of flashgitz in the squiggoth...and they performed better than they ever have for me
hmm...I do feel like they'd work far better if you bring about 3 of them or something though...just bringing one, seems to make it a nice big meaty target for the enemy to focus on (which could also be a useful feature actually)...so by the time it hits the enemy line, if it makes it, it'll basically be a nob with an AP-3, D6 damage melee weapon...
I wish I could afford the Gargantuan Squiggoth, the Big Squiggoth looks so small (like a compact trukk), and the garg doesn't throw off aim.
I've used the Big Squiggoth, I will say the issue less people talk about is that it can't be repaired/healed and it is affected by venomous blades/ammo, which sucks against Dark-Eldar.
It also throws off aim, and really needs to sit behind in tall cover to survive the amount of dakka that will head its way.
I think it does complement a close combat unit (Nobz) quite well though, unlike the garg I wouldn't look at it as a melee unit with a shooting platform, so much as a trukk that should drop off and get stuck in with its passengers.
Unless of course your opponent doesn't have nasty melee, then I think you get the squiggoth engaged so it can't be shot at and have some tankbustas nestled inside.
Maybe someone has had a different experience though, I just tend to find, at least when I only bring one, they don't reach round 3 and beyond that often :(
I haven't actually played any squiggoths, but rules-wise they are almost identical to open topped battlewagons, except their melee is more powerful and they transport less. Therefore I would expect to perform them the same, which most likely results in one or two of them dying every turn.
If you bring enough (or mix them with battlewagons and nauts), you might be able to capitalize on their high damage attacks and mortal wounds to even very tough targets in close combat - something battlewagon can't do. In my opinion, this the reason why the gargantuan squiggoth does so well in tournaments, it can just eat something like Mortarion or Magnus alive. I assume a herd of smaller squiggoths does the same.
The howda rule also seems to favor shooty options, since you can shoot even when the transport gets stuck in combat. Maybe tank busta rokkit pistols are worth taking here, since they can shoot into combat, while the rest of the tankbustas shoots at other targets.
Big guns on BS5+ platforms aren't likely to hit anything anyways, so just buy the cheapest one (IIRC the cannon) and hope for lucky hits.
The sad part is that the small squiggoth is 210 points with a kannon, I don't think that's a justified price tag for a slightly more stompy battewagon.
The sad part is that the small squiggoth is 210 points with a kannon, I don't think that's a justified price tag for a slightly more stompy battewagon.
The small squiggoth is 160 points without the optional heavy weapon, though. I think it is a decent alternative to a battle-wagon.
The sad part is that the small squiggoth is 210 points with a kannon, I don't think that's a justified price tag for a slightly more stompy battewagon.
The small squiggoth is 160 points without the optional heavy weapon, though. I think it is a decent alternative to a battle-wagon.
Ah, I wasn't aware it was reduced in CA. You still need to pay 5 for the CCW though. Considering the battewagon isn't very good, I would say the same for the squiggoth.
Yo, been playin the G-squig 15 + games now, here are my thoughts,
Needs the KFF or hes gone turn 1 - 2. Give it 2 Big zappa for cheapest loadout, assault wepons on shooting unit inside (i like a full 15 tankbustas with 4-5 bomb squiggs, i try to use the dakka stratagem every time they shoot too. The main goal is to get those 8 atcks into mele. Biggest issue I have had is moveing around tight terrain pieces and getting to units in building, if gargatuan creatures could 'destroy' terrain they lumbered through i would use him more, but still fun to play with as hes the best distraction carnifex in the game! Could be cheaper compared to how powerful other forgeworld stuff is. (brass scorpion!)
Jidmah wrote: rules-wise they are almost identical to open topped battlewagons, except their melee is more powerful and they transport less. Therefore I would expect to perform them the same, which most likely results in one or two of them dying every turn.
That's been my experience with the little Squig, Functionally the same if you're not carrying regular boyz, but the Squig is generally perceived as scarier than the other wagons on the board so get shot up first.
Not sure if it was commented already, but it's been mentioned on the DA thread that fly units ignore vertical distance when charging. So, if Stormboyz are up high, you will have a reduced, horizontal distance only, for them to make the charge
I'M SO FETHING HAPPY CHINORKS ARE OPEN TOPPES NOW! MY KOPTA BOYZ ARE GONNA GIT DEM UMMIES GUD!!
On a tactical note I really like the idea of giving them Skorchas as well, let them fly up and roast screens and the like since they won't need to worry about BS allowing your Mounted Boyz to focus on other targets. Already planning on 3 squads of Tank Bustas in 3 of mine deepstriking in and lighting somebody up, maybe a squad of Burnas.
Can someone fill me in on the hype for the chinork? Sure having some deepstriking protection for tankbustas and flashgitz is nice but if I'm not mistaken its 161 points with the cheapest loadout? Thats a real hefty price tag just to make your opponent chew through 8 t5 wounds before shooting you. Id rather just suicide da jump a group of tankbustas forward after hiding them out of LOS. Did they get a price cut or something?
91 points for the Chinork if you keep it with Deff Guns and Skorchas. I was already planning an army themed around them before the FAQ and now they just got better.
Jidmah wrote: Well, you can now deep strike koptas on top of ruins and charge stuff below them.
I like that idea, but always been super reluctant about deff koptas. You could guarantee a turn 1 charge with Da Jump on storm boyz in a similar fashion, I think it'd be a lot more circumstantial but if you run boyz and storm boyz then it's an option.
gmaleron wrote: 91 points for the Chinork if you keep it with Deff Guns and Skorchas. I was already planning an army themed around them before the FAQ and now they just got better.
drop the skorcha its not worth 17 pts for something that wont last long. take the big shoota for 6 pts and the chinork is then 80pts and cheaper then a trukk.
The best thing about a chinork is it doesn't have a damage profile and always moves 16in and advances 8in
Idk if it can get any more "official" than this. If you don't consider the Warhammer 40000 facebook page official then YMMV but I'm going to take their word for it.
Idk if it can get any more "official" than this. If you don't consider the Warhammer 40000 facebook page official then YMMV but I'm going to take their word for it.
TL;DR The FAQ didn't change Da Jump.
Yeah, this is official. Because they said that the rules team made the pic.
Idk if it can get any more "official" than this. If you don't consider the Warhammer 40000 facebook page official then YMMV but I'm going to take their word for it.
TL;DR The FAQ didn't change Da Jump.
Eh fb team itself says they are not official and that's a GOOD thing. Even semi professional company knows to keep official ones to one source. Only amateurs put that on multiple places.
You really want to carry with you rulebook, faq for rulebook, codex, faq for codex, index, faq for index, chapter approved or two, maybe faqs to them AND direct links to fb posts and comments to be able to play?
If game goes that way i take new codex every 5 years and no faqs instead. That would be preferable. At least then i know rules. Not everybody even use fb yet it should be required?
tneva82 wrote: Eh fb team itself says they are not official and that's a GOOD thing. Even semi professional company knows to keep official ones to one source. Only amateurs put that on multiple places.
You really want to carry with you rulebook, faq for rulebook, codex, faq for codex, index, faq for index, chapter approved or two, maybe faqs to them AND direct links to fb posts and comments to be able to play?
If game goes that way i take new codex every 5 years and no faqs instead. That would be preferable. At least then i know rules. Not everybody even use fb yet it should be required?
You don't need everything you've mentioned to play. You can play without Da Jump. This is just for you to use if your opponent decides to be "that guy".
There's also the pic I've included in this post.
Tneva, if you think GW are so awful at writing rules and balancing the game you know where the door is mate. Vote with your feet. Stop giving them money to continue making a game you think is poorly designed.
SPEAKING OF TACTICS AND RULES THAT DON'T NEED TO BE CLARIFIED ANYMORE:
I've been slowly increasing my Weirdboy count and conveniently started painting my third one just as the rule of three came in (beta rules in effect in my scene). Do people bother with 'Ead Banger on their third Weirdboy? Or is the focus on having a second of Da Jump for redundancy?
How many painboys to weirdboys? I've been running two weirdboys and one painboy but will I need more?
Also one thing I've been experimenting with is running 2 mobs of 20 sluggas and 10 shootas, and 2 mobs of just 10 shootas. Honestly haven't had much experience with them but one of the main advantages I've found is that it's surprisingly flexible. If I need a third reasonably sized mob of boyz I can mob up the 2 mobs of shootas for a 20 boy unit, or if I want a big ole mob of boyz I can just start mobbing up shoota boyz onto the large mixed mob.
I started doing this as I was running 2x 30 sluggas and 1x30 shootas but found it very difficult to get even 20 sluggas into melee, let alone 30.
Any thoughts/suggestions/experience on the matter?
'ead banger is almost always inferior to smite. The only reason to cast it is if you somehow ended up with a T3 characters as closest model. Unless you feel like trolling an eldar player or really want to have Celestine's head explode, a redundant source of Warpath is probably better.
Idk if it can get any more "official" than this. If you don't consider the Warhammer 40000 facebook page official then YMMV but I'm going to take their word for it.
TL;DR The FAQ didn't change Da Jump.
Eh fb team itself says they are not official and that's a GOOD thing. Even semi professional company knows to keep official ones to one source. Only amateurs put that on multiple places.
You really want to carry with you rulebook, faq for rulebook, codex, faq for codex, index, faq for index, chapter approved or two, maybe faqs to them AND direct links to fb posts and comments to be able to play?
If game goes that way i take new codex every 5 years and no faqs instead. That would be preferable. At least then i know rules. Not everybody even use fb yet it should be required?
to be fair these are beta rules aka rules in progress that need to be tested and may likely change. They are technically not official yet regardless if the majority of the player base considers them official. The only other experience we as players have had with GW issuing beta rules is through forgeworld who routinely used posts and email reply’s about beta rules and changes. They don’t officially update the beta rules until the testing period is over and it becomes official. Which won’t happen until September. So a Facebook post is actually in line with thier beta rules testing responses and feedback. The bottom line is the community team stated the clarification is official and directly from the rules team and I’m fairly sure every player, tournament, and thier mom will be playing it that way.
With his clarification I like the rule, however my only feedback is drop pods are utterly pointless now and ridiculously overpriced as well as many units whose previous schtick was mainly tactical reserved based deepstrike. What once was an extremely powerful ability is now just nice option to have on some units for late turn objective grabs and an ok movement option on some slow movements short ranged units.
Just got back from a convention, and picked up an absolute great deal on stormboyz and 18 bikes.
12 of those bikes are built, 3 with powerklaws and 9 as regular shoota/choppa. I have an additional 9 NOS.
I realize bikes aren't great yet (please codex, validate my purchase), but how should I build the NOS ones out? Should I just be waiting until codex drop at this point?
I'm thinking that I can throw the powerklaw bikers into a unit of nob bikers, and leave one in the maxed unit.
After that, maybe flesh out a full nob biker squad, or make some characters (mek, warboss?).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ajax_xaja wrote: Just got back from a convention, and picked up an absolute great deal on stormboyz and 18 bikes.
12 of those bikes are built, 3 with powerklaws and 9 as regular shoota/choppa. I have an additional 9 NOS.
I realize bikes aren't great yet (please codex, validate my purchase), but how should I build the NOS ones out? Should I just be waiting until codex drop at this point?
I'm thinking that I can throw the powerklaw bikers into a unit of nob bikers, and leave one in the maxed unit of bikes.
After that, maybe flesh out a full nob biker squad with shoota/flamers, or make some characters (mek, warboss?).
gungo wrote: to be fair these are beta rules aka rules in progress that need to be tested and may likely change. They are technically not official yet regardless if the majority of the player base considers them official. The only other experience we as players have had with GW issuing beta rules is through forgeworld who routinely used posts and email reply’s about beta rules and changes. They don’t officially update the beta rules until the testing period is over and it becomes official. Which won’t happen until September. So a Facebook post is actually in line with thier beta rules testing responses and feedback. The bottom line is the community team stated the clarification is official and directly from the rules team and I’m fairly sure every player, tournament, and thier mom will be playing it that way.
With his clarification I like the rule, however my only feedback is drop pods are utterly pointless now and ridiculously overpriced as well as many units whose previous schtick was mainly tactical reserved based deepstrike. What once was an extremely powerful ability is now just nice option to have on some units for late turn objective grabs and an ok movement option on some slow movements short ranged units.
Yes but even changes for beta rules needs to be in one direction. Otherwise we get into situation where you need 3-5 books, 3+ faq's and then direct links to bunch of FB posts and comments in your phone when not every player(I would even wager majority) don't even USE FB to follow GW. That way madness lie and if that's how GW expects then they prove they don't even PRETEND to act like professional company. Even semi-professionals know better than that!
And funny you mentioned FW. Those emails are yet another self-admitted unofficial comments and "HIWPI" replies...
ajax_xaja wrote: Just got back from a convention, and picked up an absolute great deal on stormboyz and 18 bikes.
12 of those bikes are built, 3 with powerklaws and 9 as regular shoota/choppa. I have an additional 9 NOS.
I realize bikes aren't great yet (please codex, validate my purchase), but how should I build the NOS ones out? Should I just be waiting until codex drop at this point?
I'm thinking that I can throw the powerklaw bikers into a unit of nob bikers, and leave one in the maxed unit.
After that, maybe flesh out a full nob biker squad, or make some characters (mek, warboss?).
I have made some HQ on bikes in anticipation of the codex release, but also because they are just awesome. I'd say a big mek and painboy on bike are probably essential in green-tide or with stormboyz. Otherwise I would magnetise your weapons mate, but TBH literally none of our weapons are worth bringing (maaaaaaybe a big choppa is), so the safest bet is to build them stock (if you really cant wait).
Considering that the rule of 3 is going to be a thing in some way and that biker mobz benefit from the mob rule, you are probably safe just building all of your NOS bikers as simple bikers - you already have nobz for three mobs.
If you want nob bikers later on, you can just buy a new box of bikes (or keep one box unbuilt) to turn them all into nobz with the bits from your other sprues.
If you really want awesome looking nob bikers, and aren't bothered by spending a little bit more - nobz from the nobz box fit bikes perfectly, are bigger, look better and have more options.
ajax_xaja wrote: Just got back from a convention, and picked up an absolute great deal on stormboyz and 18 bikes.
12 of those bikes are built, 3 with powerklaws and 9 as regular shoota/choppa. I have an additional 9 NOS.
I realize bikes aren't great yet (please codex, validate my purchase), but how should I build the NOS ones out? Should I just be waiting until codex drop at this point?
I'm thinking that I can throw the powerklaw bikers into a unit of nob bikers, and leave one in the maxed unit.
After that, maybe flesh out a full nob biker squad, or make some characters (mek, warboss?).
I have made some HQ on bikes in anticipation of the codex release, but also because they are just awesome. I'd say a big mek and painboy on bike are probably essential in green-tide or with stormboyz. Otherwise I would magnetise your weapons mate, but TBH literally none of our weapons are worth bringing (maaaaaaybe a big choppa is), so the safest bet is to build them stock (if you really cant wait).
I don't think biker HQs will be in the codex except possibly the warboss because FW makes a model, probably have a year before they wipe the index though. There also hasn't been much love for bikers in other codex so I'm going cautious on them, GW likes to stat bikers in a way that makes them extremely vulnerable to the shooting in 8th
Hamstring Pulla wrote: I don't think biker HQs will be in the codex except possibly the warboss because FW makes a model, probably have a year before they wipe the index though. There also hasn't been much love for bikers in other codex so I'm going cautious on them, GW likes to stat bikers in a way that makes them extremely vulnerable to the shooting in 8th
Damn good point mate. I'd still field the index version ATM (even upon codex release perhaps), since the mobility is so valuable, but damn if they get no love you're spot on they wont be worth making.
On the FAQ, I get that warbosses affect bikes and that buffs them from completely overcosted garbage to slightly more useful overcosted garbage.
I have my space marines bike army (that is now sort of unusable thanks to the new FAQ and most clubs moving to 3 of a unit type max, but that is a whole other ball game)
compared to my space marine bikers for the same points the ork only have a couple of advantages The first being 1 more attack each base (plus 2 with choppa). the second being the Nob being +1 str and wound. in exchange they give up 1 leadership, -1 armor save, worse shooting (to be fiar their gun is str 5 not str 4 but after BS and number of shots space marine bikers come out ahead) and the space marine bikes always advance 6. The space marines also have a bolt pistol in addition to their twin bike bolt guns and can take special weapons.
space marine bikes aren't even great for the points, I was surprised they did not go down to 23 to 25 each (modest drop but would make them more in line with performance) ork bikers comparatively are probably worth around 18-20 points each I just hope our codex gets these things right.
I'm not to worried about bikes. I have a feeling with all the rumours of new buggies and a new codex coming out in june/july and rumored gorkamorka. Bikes will be decent
At this point its just waiting for the codex to drop.
I did pick up the meka dread(mega dread body) with killkannon(or rattler) and klaw arms. If the codex does make dreads useful im sure the KFF on a durable mobile platform will help.
I mean my worry is with the play testers for 8th they use who thought the stompa was worth 1k points. I worry that none of the actual problems in points will be addressed. I think we will get cool new models that I will enjoy building and painting, but I have serious concerns that the only thing the codex will do is increase the cost of boyz due to complaints from other armies and largely leave our rules the same, make us less durable, and increase unit points costs (like the 4th to 6th and then 6th to 8th index did, this is not unprecedented it is at this point GW's MO with orks, make new kits, nerf the old stuff and overcost everything because they don't understand how useless BS5+ is) )
Or, more specifically, good Bad Moon rules. No doubt there is a heavy focus on Goffs in the Ork fluff, I'm really hoping they don't just hunker down on Ork's being CC only.
Or Freebooterz! Everybody loves pirates!
Might pick up a few Mek Gunz. KMK seem incredibly powerful at times. Or underwhelming at times.
Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
Or, more specifically, good Bad Moon rules. No doubt there is a heavy focus on Goffs in the Ork fluff, I'm really hoping they don't just hunker down on Ork's being CC only.
Or Freebooterz! Everybody loves pirates!
Might pick up a few Mek Gunz. KMK seem incredibly powerful at times. Or underwhelming at times.
I'm worried about freebooterz actually...there's no mention of them (that I noticed) in the BRB or the index, whereas all the clans are given a description and stuff...
I doubt it
all the chapter tactics have a similar bonus
evil suns- some type of movement bonus (im thinking something more like tyranid kraken roll 3 for advance rolls choose highest and fallback and charge)
bloodaxe- some type of stealthy bonus (if we are lucky the -1 to hit bonus)
bloodmoon- some type of shooting bonus (+6 range on guns or reroll hit rolls of 1 in shooting phase but I rather have something that helps BS when dealing with units with -1 hit since we just flat out cant roll a 7.)
snakebite- some durability bonus (like tyranid leviathan fnp on a d6 roll of 6)
goff- some type of charge or assault bonus (im hoping something more like tyranid gorgon reroll wounds of 1 in assault phase, but expecting something like tyranid hydra reroll hit rolls when you outnumber opponent or on the turn you charge)
deathskull- probably something like an extra shot on a 6 to hit but hoping not because of the bucket of dice we already roll but honestly no idea what deathskulls would get
Frozocrone wrote: I'm just hoping for good clan rules.
Or, more specifically, good Bad Moon rules. No doubt there is a heavy focus on Goffs in the Ork fluff, I'm really hoping they don't just hunker down on Ork's being CC only.
Or Freebooterz! Everybody loves pirates!
Might pick up a few Mek Gunz. KMK seem incredibly powerful at times. Or underwhelming at times.
I'm worried about freebooterz actually...there's no mention of them (that I noticed) in the BRB or the index, whereas all the clans are given a description and stuff...
freebooterz are a unit NOT really a clan. They don't benefit from any clan rules which is odd because they are really kinda overpriced for that loss. Lore wise they are clanless and from all clans. I don't expect any clan rules for them but I wouldn't mind if they received any.
To be fair freebooters datasheet should have their clan tactics built into their rules like +1bs!!!
While we're on the topic of not tactics. I'm just now assembling my dread mob and with the rule of three and the buff to battalion, do you think dread mob will be viable if not doable? Atleast at <1000-1500.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
I'm not sure of the rules for Berserkers - but I believe the wording is along the lines of "this unit may fight twice in the fight phase";
Going off the top of my head, there should be an opportunity for the Orks to spend 2cp on the counter-charge strategem, and interrupt them between the first and second selection of a squad that can fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Rismonite: Yep! It's open-topped now (thanks FAQ) - this, coupled with the deep strike changes, leads me to believe it'll be a solid option for Ork armies nowadays.
I had to ask the same question myself a couple pages back, haha.
Personally I’m hesitant to buy most fw because who knows how long it will be usable or viable. I tend to buy items that can be proxied as other units in the codex. So I have an entire krieg army which can be played codex. I have a sentinel power lifter and hades drill which is useless if there are no fw rules. I have warboss on bike and nobs on bikes. I have the half trakk trukk because it looks cool and it’s a different looking trukk. I’ve got the kommandos as well for the same reason I don’t like my models to look the same. I just picked up the Meka dread it can be proxied as a dread but even that worries me. the chinorks are nice units it’s just a large investment for something that may not be around long: I guess you can always proxy them as trukks if you want a themed army. They do look cool.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
I'm not sure of the rules for Berserkers - but I believe the wording is along the lines of "this unit may fight twice in the fight phase";
Going off the top of my head, there should be an opportunity for the Orks to spend 2cp on the counter-charge strategem, and interrupt them between the first and second selection of a squad that can fight.
I could have sworn there was an FAQ entry saying they could go twice upfront but I cant find it anymore... Anyways if this is the case he would have to let me go as well before attacking again.
Frozocrone wrote: I'm really hoping they don't just hunker down on Ork's being CC only.
Really, I'd be fine with this if it meant they gave Orks invulnerable saves and meaningful delivery mechanisms into close combat.
The most frustrating thing is that GW both decided orks were a CC army and yet hobbled them with 5"/4" movement speeds, overpriced "open-topped transports" that limit Boyz' maximum unit size beneath "green tide" threshold, mediocre elite CC units that are either slow, overpriced, ineffective or all three, poor CCHQ choices with no invulnerable saves, no shields or even combat shield equivalents, no jump packs on regular characters, no rerolls in close combat a la chaplains, and no fast transports.
There are tons of ways that orks could be more effective in close combat. I'll just mention one that gives me an aneurysm. No invulnerable saves in close combat for orks makes me pop a blood vessel at least once every morning. Just do the math between a captain with a bog standard 4+ invulnerable save and a relic blade against a warboss with a power klaw. That's not even counting the 3++ storm shield that halves all incoming damage.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
I'm not sure of the rules for Berserkers - but I believe the wording is along the lines of "this unit may fight twice in the fight phase";
Going off the top of my head, there should be an opportunity for the Orks to spend 2cp on the counter-charge strategem, and interrupt them between the first and second selection of a squad that can fight.
I could have sworn there was an FAQ entry saying they could go twice upfront but I cant find it anymore... Anyways if this is the case he would have to let me go as well before attacking again.
Not too sure, but they could go twice in a row if he had them fight first because of charge, then pick them as the first unit to fight after all charging units. that would be my guess.
TedNugent wrote: [
There are tons of ways that orks could be more effective in close combat. I'll just mention one that gives me an aneurysm. No invulnerable saves in close combat for orks makes me pop a blood vessel at least once every morning. Just do the math between a captain with a bog standard 4+ invulnerable save and a relic blade against a warboss with a power klaw. That's not even counting the 3++ storm shield that halves all incoming damage.
Well said captain also costs good 30 pts or more plus shield. Also I don't think he CAN take both relic blade AND 3++ storm shield. Those are both in the "pick one" category. Thunderhammer+storm shield works. Of course we are then talking about 110pts plus relic vs 72 pts. If captain wouldn't beat warboss in h2h with good odds it would be weird between two beatsticks.
TedNugent wrote: [
There are tons of ways that orks could be more effective in close combat. I'll just mention one that gives me an aneurysm. No invulnerable saves in close combat for orks makes me pop a blood vessel at least once every morning. Just do the math between a captain with a bog standard 4+ invulnerable save and a relic blade against a warboss with a power klaw. That's not even counting the 3++ storm shield that halves all incoming damage.
Well said captain also costs good 30 pts or more plus shield. Also I don't think he CAN take both relic blade AND 3++ storm shield. Those are both in the "pick one" category. Thunderhammer+storm shield works. Of course we are then talking about 110pts plus relic vs 72 pts. If captain wouldn't beat warboss in h2h with good odds it would be weird between two beatsticks.
You can absolutely take a captain with a relic blade and a storm shield. The storm shield can be upgraded to the shield eternal, cutting damage taken in half for free.
Why don't orks have the option to take an HQ that can competitively fight against a space marine HQ? When I consider the mobility options, durability and versatility of an SM captain, they significantly outpace the warboss, in addition that they mutilate a warboss without much trouble in CC. That 3++ alone accounts for taking damage down by a third, and the shield eternal cuts damage in half. That's 1/6 without any other modifiers, such as the rerolls of 1 to hit. With a Thunder Hammer the difference becomes only even more pronounced.
The fact that GW's design team has been adamant against a mere 5++ invulnerable save on Ork HQs becomes completely insulting full stop.
Another week, another game that I didn't get to finish. About 2 hours is simply too little with the 8th ed that's one of the slowest games GW has released in years. I have played 3k games of 2nd edition in this time :-/ And 7th ed 2k games with about comparable ork army were breeze...
Anyway I had Ghazkhull, 2 warboss(one with relic choppa), 2 weirdboys(warpath and da jump), painboy, 3x30 boyz(goff, evil sunz, bad moons), 25 stormboyz, 10 grots, 2x10 boyz, 3 KMK, dakka jet, tank bustas in trukk and warbuggy. I was up against dark angels with Ezekiel, captain, librarian in terminator armour, 5 knight terminators, 4 bikes + attack bike, 4 knight bikers, whirlwind, some devastators, some scouts, 2 tactical squads, small assault marine squad and the -1 hit aura flyer.
I lucked out on open war scenario. Sideway deployments up to half, objective was the one with 6 objectives of which one ends up randomly as the one to control and orbital debris ruse. I basically deployed wall of orks front with 2 smaller boy squads and KMK's holding up rear(originally had planned to use strategem to join up small squads to big ones but seeing scenario and the fact he had deep strikers I decided to use them as rear area chaff. This actually worked pretty damn well!
Big thing was me seizing first turn and then me rolling 6 right away to reveal objective which was about as far from DA line as possible. This basically let me to push forward and put objective REALLY far distance from dark angels. I da jumped evil sunz from nearby objective into my left flank ready to assault tactical squads. Maybe not smartest idea as hey objective was now thinner but goffs were still close and I could da jump bad moons there later. And as I quipped to onlooker noting this might not be best idea "hey I'm an ork" to which she said she loved my attitude. Anyway I wanted to put fight to his backfields and with rear chaff I wasn't that worried about deep strikers. Evil sunz did charge and out of 15 tacticals or so left 3 alive.
He swung back sending knight bikes against evil sunz killing some. This combat would go until game ended. Power klaw kept missing and I had the big squad. This was touch&go how it would have gone. On center bike squad rushed to shoot at storm boyz. Not sure was this mistake but then again what alternative? Hang back? Charge toward grots which requires first charging into grot screen, then concolidiate into goffs and eat charge from ghazz and warboss? Not that good idea either...Still his shooting vs stormboyz was "pathetic" to say the least not making much of a dent. So they went in but before charge I da jumped(though perilsed for 3 wounds) other weirdboy near and then cast warpath into the stormboyz. Charge and nob+64 attacks later one bike was left. Damn attack bike with it's wounds. Both ezekiel and warlord heroic intervened. Next round nob made short work of captain and strategem kept now rapidly thinning squad in order.
I had pretty good feelings and his 2nd turn his knights had serious trouble finding deep strike spot as I controlled most of the board and my dakka jet made sure even his BACKLINES had no spots. Alas due to rush I hadn't had time or even much position rear chaff so there was just about terminator sized hole who also charged and killed 10 boyz. This was bit of a worry as 2 KMK's didnt' do dent and I failed da jump to send goffs there but still I had 2 mobs of orks that could have rushed there plus Ghazz with pretty much no help available for the knights so could the terminators have held the objective alone?
Picture on his turn 2 after movement phase.
If the dethskulls on center had been few inches closer to table edge no knights there and would have easy win for me then(he would struggle to footslog as he would have had to deep strike pretty much on furthest corner he had. Note how warbuggy stops that one corner(I drove it there specifically for that!) and the lone surviving tank busta nob on top left of picture still played a role there by making THAT area too no-go! If orks go first deep strike isnt' going to be easy prospect and with beta rules that requires basically screwup like I did due to time issues.
We had to call it quits after my 3rd turn :( Wish I knew how battle would have gone.
With the chronic timing issues if I can't get pre-agreement to start 1h+ earlier I have no option but to take more expensive single models like gorkanaut. Not optimal but I want to finish games and not like opponent armies are here super competive either.
TedNugent wrote: [
There are tons of ways that orks could be more effective in close combat. I'll just mention one that gives me an aneurysm. No invulnerable saves in close combat for orks makes me pop a blood vessel at least once every morning. Just do the math between a captain with a bog standard 4+ invulnerable save and a relic blade against a warboss with a power klaw. That's not even counting the 3++ storm shield that halves all incoming damage.
Well said captain also costs good 30 pts or more plus shield. Also I don't think he CAN take both relic blade AND 3++ storm shield. Those are both in the "pick one" category. Thunderhammer+storm shield works. Of course we are then talking about 110pts plus relic vs 72 pts. If captain wouldn't beat warboss in h2h with good odds it would be weird between two beatsticks.
You can absolutely take a captain with a relic blade and a storm shield. The storm shield can be upgraded to the shield eternal, cutting damage taken in half for free.
Why don't orks have the option to take an HQ that can competitively fight against a space marine HQ? When I consider the mobility options, durability and versatility of an SM captain, they significantly outpace the warboss, in addition that they mutilate a warboss without much trouble in CC. That 3++ alone accounts for taking damage down by a third, and the shield eternal cuts damage in half. That's 1/6 without any other modifiers, such as the rerolls of 1 to hit. With a Thunder Hammer the difference becomes only even more pronounced.
The fact that GW's design team has been adamant against a mere 5++ invulnerable save on Ork HQs becomes completely insulting full stop.
Where the relic blade AND storm shield comes? Aren't those 2 among list of 3 you can pick one?
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
They are the biggest shark in the melee tanks, so yes, you did everything right.
Some advice though - the two times the zerkers fight still get activated separately, so if you feel like your mob is strong enough after the first round of combat, use the counter-attack stratagem to fight before the berzerkers fight a second time.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
They are the biggest shark in the melee tanks, so yes, you did everything right.
Some advice though - the two times the zerkers fight still get activated separately, so if you feel like your mob is strong enough after the first round of combat, use the counter-attack stratagem to fight before the berzerkers fight a second time.
Gotcha, so basically let them go once with their charge, then use strategem to hit them back before they get their second turn of attacks?
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
Sounds about right. Remember, Kharn and 10 bezerkers with chainaxes is 330 points. For that you can get 55 boyz. And 55 boyz will do some damage in return, especially if they get the charge. Also, 55 boyz is more than enough to surround a rhino completely, so that the bezerkers cannot disembark and gets auto-killed when the rhino blows. When that happens snap a photo of your opponents facial expression and post it here in the Ork thread.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
They are the biggest shark in the melee tanks, so yes, you did everything right.
Some advice though - the two times the zerkers fight still get activated separately, so if you feel like your mob is strong enough after the first round of combat, use the counter-attack stratagem to fight before the berzerkers fight a second time.
Gotcha, so basically let them go once with their charge, then use strategem to hit them back before they get their second turn of attacks?
Yes, if you got the two CP to spend, that is the strategy. The best option is to get the charge yourself, and not let your opponent charge you.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
Sounds about right. Remember, Kharn and 10 bezerkers with chainaxes is 330 points. For that you can get 55 boyz. And 55 boyz will do some damage in return, especially if they get the charge. Also, 55 boyz is more than enough to surround a rhino completely, so that the bezerkers cannot disembark and gets auto-killed when the rhino blows. When that happens snap a photo of your opponents facial expression and post it here in the Ork thread.
Billagio wrote: Question about Khorne Berserkers.... Ive only palyed a few games of 8th and a unit of ~10 zerkers + Kharne charged my mob of 30 boys. Since they get to go twice before I get to attack all 30 basically got wiped out.
I feel like we didnt do the rules correctly or something. Did I miss something?
They are the biggest shark in the melee tanks, so yes, you did everything right.
Some advice though - the two times the zerkers fight still get activated separately, so if you feel like your mob is strong enough after the first round of combat, use the counter-attack stratagem to fight before the berzerkers fight a second time.
Gotcha, so basically let them go once with their charge, then use strategem to hit them back before they get their second turn of attacks?
Yes, if you got the two CP to spend, that is the strategy. The best option is to get the charge yourself, and not let your opponent charge you.
I see. My main problem is getting the charge. Since theyre in a rhino theyre a good deal more mobile than footfslogging boyz, but I do agree that they'll do some good damage in return if given the chance.
Alright opinions which is better for my Meka dread with thier bs4+ shooting.
Killkannon d6 str7 ap-2 2 damage 15pts
Or
Rattlerkannon 2d6str 5 ap-2 d3 dam 16pts
I still think rattler since there aren’t a lot of toughness 5/6/7 units. If the killkannon was str 8 I’d definitely take it.
261pts really is a good price point for this model. You just need to save a cp for the 4+ fnp reroll.
It sucks the faq didnt give it a supa skorcha like the old mega dread had.
Billagio wrote: I see. My main problem is getting the charge. Since theyre in a rhino theyre a good deal more mobile than footfslogging boyz, but I do agree that they'll do some good damage in return if given the chance.
Well you have 55 boyz for price of berserkers. Have screen of about 10 orks and 10 grots ahead of your mainline. Unless he has enough shooting to clear up front line he won't really be charging your main line so you get to counter charge first.
Issue you hit easily with orks yourself so nice to use it yourself. Without shooting hard to reach good targets at first charge so you need to eat up their counter charge often enough. Which is why 2 wave assault is handy if you have boyz to do it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Been starting to think I should start be in habit of taking 10 sized squads of boyz. They seem surprisingly flexible. With mob up I can merge them with bigger squads if need be(giving 2 nobz to the squad as well). And since it's just 60 pts(plus maybe special weapon to nob) they are cheap so can be used as chaff/screen/DS blockers. While grots can do that part for cheaper they can't be mobbed up if needed.
Last game I could use 2 to shut down my backfield of deep strikes(apart from timing caused measurement error) which allowed me to push forward with whole main army without worrying about leaving objective vulnerable to mass deep strike(well except for the tiny hole for that one squad but at least assault marines couldn't join and if I had had more time that hole wouldn't have been there either).
Against infiltrators etc they can be used to create front line. And here they shine over grots. With grots if I need to charge through it can create bit of a roadblock as the grots don't run fastly out of combat. ALSO due to grots being first ork boyz are further away from enemy than I would without screen. With boyz screen I can instead mob up and charge away with full blop if situation presents!
Bit more expensive chaff than grots but extra utility. No need to go overboard though as you can mob up only 1 per turn so 3 is max I think is useful along with some grot units.
Oh and with these its easier to take battallions which pays up those mob up CP's with interest. Doubly useful come codex with cool strategems.
Am I missing something?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay FAQ pretty much killed kommandos as main assault units. With T3 for reliable charge that's way too late. However since due to calculation error with models(I thought I was 1 short for the 7 mobs of orks I thought I had. Still need more when the codex hits so I can bring battallion of any of the 4 clans I have) I ended up buying box of 4 orks.
Now was planning just saving those for when the inevitable new units(I currently have 3 goffs, 2 dethskulls, 1 evil sunz and 1 bad moon so next probably is evil sunz or bad moons. Prolly evil sunz due to choppa&slugga. Bad moons I make more of shooty variety) but then thought with nob(I have plenty of those) that could be made into small kommando squad though would need flamer bits. Or use 2 of my 15 burnas as kommando base...
Anyway idea was 5 kommandos with 2 burnas and includes either naked nob or nob with big choppa. Obviously not huge threat but cheap at 52 pts with big choppa. I thought these could be turn 2 or maybe even turn 3 objective grabbers for cheap.
Any use for such a unit? I'm worried for backfield objectives grots does same job better and forward...well I'm aiming there with my army so if things go as planned opponent shouldn't be rushing forward with army so not sure can they get to objectives with that 9" limit...
Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.
As Objective grabbers 5 is more flexable, for where you can set them up. Again, you'll want to blow open a hole open to help them set up and not have a lot to deal with. It really depends on what the other army is and how they are playing. If they are mindful of sneaky units you might have it's going to be an issue you need to find a way to solve. We don't have, seems to me, very strong/hard hitting indirect fire with good range available regularly out side of the suppa lobba. (ifr)
If your army can put on pressure to draw enemy units away from where you want your Kommandos to be do that as well.
I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.
warhead01 wrote: Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.
Problem is now that if you plan to assault you need to plan for Turn 3 assault. Before it was turn 2. Turn 3 is already pretty damn late on 8th ed.
These would not be used as assault elements. That's for my boyz and stormboyz who can get it on turn 2. These would be objective grabbing and maybe some harashment to try to chase down small soft targets(IG heavy weapons being prime target) or at least force opponent to dedicate some stuff to ensure I can't do that.
I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.
But that was when they could come turn 1...Now they come on turn 2 and you can't really rely on them charging right away so you are looking at turn 3 assault but then you could have saved points(they cost 9 vs 6) and get +1A(which btw I realized I have forgotten so far...) at least sometimes.
Dunno. For me before they seemed to have role as being 50% more expensive and less effective chargers but possibly at turn 1, maybe turn 2. Now they are coming reliably when foot boyz would be charging anyway so why pay points for something you aren't really using?
Also btw 15 is harder to fit than 5 so would be easier for chaff to block away completely.
warhead01 wrote: Kommandos. I don't know right now. I see it a little different. If I am planning to assault with them I am bringing 10 and 15, mob up and charge. I have to create a spot for them on turn one.
Problem is now that if you plan to assault you need to plan for Turn 3 assault. Before it was turn 2. Turn 3 is already pretty damn late on 8th ed.
These would not be used as assault elements. That's for my boyz and stormboyz who can get it on turn 2. These would be objective grabbing and maybe some harashment to try to chase down small soft targets(IG heavy weapons being prime target) or at least force opponent to dedicate some stuff to ensure I can't do that.
I just played a Kommando list a few months ago at a local Tournament and it was ok, I put over 100+ models in my enemies face turn one with Kommandso, deff Koptas and 40 boys mobed up and jumped. but it only worked in 2 games and only did well in one game. Enemy models matter..
And so do dice.
I keep finding a more rounded army does better more of the time than pushing an list leaning toward an extreme.
But that was when they could come turn 1...Now they come on turn 2 and you can't really rely on them charging right away so you are looking at turn 3 assault but then you could have saved points(they cost 9 vs 6) and get +1A(which btw I realized I have forgotten so far...) at least sometimes.
Dunno. For me before they seemed to have role as being 50% more expensive and less effective chargers but possibly at turn 1, maybe turn 2. Now they are coming reliably when foot boyz would be charging anyway so why pay points for something you aren't really using?
Also btw 15 is harder to fit than 5 so would be easier for chaff to block away completely.
Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.
If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )
The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)
Been starting to think I should start be in habit of taking 10 sized squads of boyz. They seem surprisingly flexible. With mob up I can merge them with bigger squads if need be(giving 2 nobz to the squad as well). And since it's just 60 pts(plus maybe special weapon to nob) they are cheap so can be used as chaff/screen/DS blockers. While grots can do that part for cheaper they can't be mobbed up if needed.
At least would be nice conversion project...
I do this already actually and it works out pretty well. I have a unit of 30 shoota boys and a unit of 10 shoota boys deployed mext to each other, mob them up amd jump them on turn one. I have my "Reserve boys" as 2 units of 10 slugga boys in a battlewagon. So if the now 40 boy shoota squad needs some help or boost in numbers to stay viable I can add in 10 fresh bodies to keep the green tide rolling for two turns. I mixed the boy type because if it looks like theyre going to be in for a long fight after I merge slugga boys into their, I kill off shoota boys for the extra attacks, but if I just needed a little boost to overcome whatever theyre locked in with, I kill of sluggas to be better at shooting.
This also works well if the shoota boys are dping okay and there's a threat right in front of the battlewagon. In this case I jist mob up the two squads from the wagon, suck up the overwatch with the wagon itself, then charge the threat with a squad of 20 boys with green tide. Its very flexible, and has given my competitive Death guard friend a run for his money
Every time I use it.
Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.
If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )
The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)
Enemy moving forward has zero effect on kommandos as you still need that 9" to charge. In fact if opponent comes forward that helps boyz(and hurts kommando) as they might not need 9 to charge
Again, it does depend on the other player and their army. Turn 1 assaults are easily done if they are rolling towards your army. This happened in my last few games. SoB's in transports pre turn 1 movies right towards me. Thing is you need a bit of a plan for your units before you play anyway. It just needs to be fluid.
Maybe right now small Kommando units are going to be better. You've got 3 turns to pop them out and do something with them.
If you can pull off a turn 3 charge from the rear of the enemies lines that at least sets you up for some kinda scoring situations later in the game, so that might be worth figuring out.
I know what you are saying bout the model count, 15 over 5. I was putting that into mind, which was why I was saying we'll need to blow open a whole or draw the enemy away from where we want the table space.
(So study up on your Jedi mind tricks and what have you. )
The only reason I played so many Kommandos in that tournament was to speed up my game and have a large model count army. This was right after all of that internet crying about slow play.
Over all it wasn't overly entertaining and I only won my third game for ...reasons lol.
But yes, I was all about a first turn charge with almost all of my models. MY usual Scrumgrod has now change his army yet again to include more flamer type weapons, more and more autto hit weapons and more tanks...joy of joys. something about 6 or 8 hell hounds. (Or something like that.)
Enemy moving forward has zero effect on kommandos as you still need that 9" to charge. In fact if opponent comes forward that helps boyz(and hurts kommando) as they might not need 9 to charge
Yes for Kommandos, but not for the rest of your army which you might be interested in using to help you get the most use from your kommandos.
They will still need that 9" charge. Ok, so what. My only issue is being screened so strongly that I can't set my unit up on the table.
I have ha my Kommandos pushed back in games where other foot units were bothered. It is what it is.
Not that it's overly important, In that last tournament I mentioned, my last game I made I failed only 1 of 6 charges from 9" away. So it doesn't matter really it just comes back to how are your dice treating you that day.
The game before I kept failing charges so it's what ever. Again, had my list been more rounded I wouldn't have had to do or die where those charges came in. Which was what I didn't like about that list it was all or nothing on turn one. Not a whole lot of fun really.
However, the more I think about it the more I agree turn 3 is where you will be the most successful in charging with Kommandos, provided they come on the table the turn before.
I think we're right back to using them to take objectives in small 5 strong Mobs. If your scoring points for objectives on your turn then could be better than a charge anyway.
We still have to look at what we need to do to win the missions.
Really wish I had seen something clever to do with kommandos but I'm out of good ideas I think.
Yes for Kommandos, but not for the rest of your army which you might be interested in using to help you get the most use from your kommandos.
Yes but thing is you are paying for that infiltrate ability but if enemy comes ahead your kommandos can easily have HARDER time than boyz to charge. Before FAQ they could compensate that by coming way ahead on turn 1. Turn 2 coming and boyz are pretty much same. Before you could have good initial threat with kommandos and stormboyz with da jumped squad with 2nd wave of regular boyz. Multiple threats. Now kommandos don\t really add much threat and are just very expensive guys. Basically you pay 3 pts and lose the +1A for extra blip of cover save...
Can't see how kommandos could be worth it as assault unit anymore. Boyz are simply faster now for that for cheaper price and more punch. So that leads me to think cheap small harashment/objective grabber squads are way to go if kommandos have any role.
They will still need that 9" charge. Ok, so what. My only issue is being screened so strongly that I can't set my unit up on the table.
Issue is kommandos have now harder time charging than boyz often enough...
I have ha my Kommandos pushed back in games where other foot units were bothered. It is what it is.
Not that it's overly important, In that last tournament I mentioned, my last game I made I failed only 1 of 6 charges from 9" away. So it doesn't matter really it just comes back to how are your dice treating you that day.
Can't build army planning on luck.
And hey now rule check. Da Jump+advance. If squad(or part of squad in case of mob up strategem) has advanced can unit charge after da jumping or should I keep not advancing if I plan to da jump?
Anyway had rather fun game today. Might have been most fun 8th ed game I have had so far. 1500 pts vs blood angels as it turned out(had no idea whom I'll be facing). 1500 pts and the fact we could start earlier AND I had no train to catch meant that with 1500 pts armies we might actually finish up in time! Yey! Still I had softened up my army a bit to include something other than boyz...So I had warboss with 6+++ and relic big choppa, big mek w/KFF, da jump and warpath weirdboys, 30 boyz w/big choppa nob, 21 boyz w/klaw, 10 boyz with klaw, 10 grots, 25 stormboyz w/klaw, 2 KMK, dreadnought w/4 klaws and gorkanaut. 9 command points.
He had not quite nastiest BA smashcaptain but still no overwatch wings, 3++ and thunderhammer that was death company. Also lib in terminator armour and jump pack chaplain. 3 or 4 scout squads, primaris basic marines, death company dread, normal dread, 10 death company. 13 CP's.! Overall was most worried obviously about death company and characters.
For scenario open war gave us deployments by depth with 24" betwene armies, king slayer so power level kills except if you kill warlord double it. And night fight so 12" LOS for shooting and spells from T1...Okay so we aren't shooting all that much! I won 1st turn which was nice enough.
Turn 1 I rushed forward with everything and mobbed up 10 orks to 21(which was all with h2h weapons. The big squad had some shootas and also crucially big choppa). Psychic I Da Jumped now merged squad behind his death company. Surprise! Shooting was laughable. Maybe killed scout or two with dethskulls(the originally biggest squad). On assault phase I rolled double 4. Don't recall did I use CP reroll or ork reroll. If not I should have used CP reroll as it's better(made finally calculation to see when it's better to use CP to reroll lower dice. If your highest dice was 3 use ork reroll, otherwise use CP if you don't think you need it elsewhere. With 4 as highest it's only few % difference). Either way I got beautifull 10 and 31 boyz including 2 power klaw nobs charged into death company. Lucky 1 on morale ensured 3 survived. Second charge(dethskulls to some scouts) failed even with reroll.
His turn and all 3 characters deep striked into his deployment zone to help out with the angry swarm of goffs. Blood angels elsewhere retreated in terror from swarm of orks(or performed tactical repositioning depending on PV ). Death company retreated leaving my poor orks under shooting hell which saw nearly 20 die. Smashcaptain charged in with 3d6" needing CP reroll to make it and killed few more. I used strategem to prevent them autodying.
Turn 2. Stormboyz still too far to reach anything so I swarmed forward and dethskulls charged some scouts killing 4. Weirdboy Da Jumped warlord toward stormboyz as somehow I thought side with most of blood angels was safer...Okay still plenty of guys there but really? Why da jump there...Goffs took another go at smashcaptain giving 1 wound by regular guy that he opted not to reroll. I needed to not roll 6 to lose all my orks there which I did. However captain disengaged and he blew them away. Dethskulls also took beating by primaris marines and bolter scout squad shooting and charging but in the end I would finish up those leaving orks alive.
Now here I...basically lost my mind. I forgot exactly what kingslayer objective did. Somehow I thought I HAD to kill warlord. I forgot entirely it only double casualties which means that if one side kills warlord pretty sure to kill but if neither kills it's not automatic draw. But I thought I HAD to kill to win and never one to settle for draw and with warlord being that jump pack fast mover that top of ruin my dreadnought and gorkanaut can't do anything to...I made suicide attack with stormboyz. Made worse by not getting that much stuff on battlements so odds of killing it was slim. Still leaving string of stormboyz to cast warpath(I can't get all into combat anyway so didn't even lose guys from attack) and ensured I didn't suffer casualties by advance and charge(at least some use for warboss...). I charged into 3 squads of scouts and warlord and...Well one scout squad lost 3 guys. One faced 4 stormboyz attacks and didn't lose any member. And warlord just shrugged it off and started smashing orks fast.
Sooooo...My plan failed pretty utterly. Now I figured I was at best drawing.
Later half my gorkanaut ran over his dreadnought though got dented badly in the process(intercept). KMK's finally got into range with moving(lol) and light coming up so fired some pot shots at scouts. On his turn 3 his warlord used strategem to deep strike near my warlord(yikes!) and finished stormboyz. Smashcaptain charged into my warboss and I thought best I could hope is for KMK's to avenge warboss. However somehow he managed to miss and fail to wound enough that I "only" suffered 6 wounds from thunderhammer! And tenacious survivor kept him alive! Wow! I thought KMK's might get shot to kill him keeping warboss alive but before that warboss struct. 4 attacks, 4 hits. Relic choppa and...2 6's! 5 mortal wounds! His 5+++ with 1's alive kept him alive. But 2 wounds regularly and he failed one 3++! Still with one wound...Except then I remembered the wound he had suffered with goffs and with his comments "oh right" he died! Ork warboss vs nasty death company captain in fair ork vs man and ork won! Yey! Serious luck there but hey sometimes dice are with you
Anyway this put victory at my grasp. However I'm expert at grasping defeat from jaws of victory and sure enough on my turn 5 I had death company dreadnought on sight with deff dread so CHAAAAAAAARGE! Gorkanaut finished off death company with shooting. So then the assault phase. Librarian with force axe heroic intervened and here...I totally, completely, TOTALLY INSANEOUSLY lost my mind to greed and went for stupid 4 attacks to dreadnought, 2 attacks to librarian split thinking I might kill 'em both. Well unsurprisingly both survived(librarian unscathed) and death company dreadnought ripped deff dread apart. This gave consolidiation ranges easily so his dreadnought went and smashed my poor gorkanaut(19PL) and librarian smited my warboss(bleargh), charged and killed weirdboy and chaplain charged and killed big mek...
Ah well. In the end he got like 69 power levels killed, I got like 42 or so(these before doubling). I only got basically death company, dread and warlord as big kills with plenty small squads hurt but not finished. I lost warlord, medium+small squad of boyz, stormboyz, dreadnought and gorkanaut which hurt a lot.
So basically I screwed up with stormboyz(shouldn't have charged them alone there) and totally lost my mind with the dreadnought. Without that consolidiate he would have struggled to get into angle where warboss was closest target or get even all that close. And dreadnought would have died giving me PL's, him not deff dread PL's and gorkanaut would have survived...All in all even if he got warlord it would still have been some 26PL+whatever that death company dreadnought is worth swing and he would have struggled to kill another character along with warboss and def not all three so at least some 4-5 PL saved there as well so easy win for me even if he kills my warboss...Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Advance is rolled and moved at movement phase so pre jumping. Benefit for advance thus would be small and mainly backup in case da jump fails. Just checking won'' get denied charge stupidly in future
Yeah that was my first thought but then i remembered wasn't there something about spell effects going away with da jump etc so no warpath followed by da jump(would have been handy) and if true maybe wording matters here too. Haven't found that either yet though
Edit found it. Q would be is that persistent effect but then again it is for strategems so warpath plus da jump would be legal...that's big
jump is in psychic phase, after the movement phase, so obviously no advancing after jumping...and jumping does count as having moved, for the purposes of firing heavy weapons, etc...but it doesn't say it counts as advancing or anything like that, so you can still charge after jumping just fine
*edit*...ohh...we're talking about advancing before jumping?...actually, yeah, I'm not sure if you would be allowed to charge after jumping then or not...hmm...
If you advanced in the movement phase and then cast da jump on that unit, you would not be able to declare a charge because you still advanced in the movement phase. This can be negated by the waagh rule from the warboss.
I play with three Dakka Jets and I found that they’re a great way to delete Berserkers. If they’re footslogging, each Dakka Jet will kill three Berserkers per turn. If they’re in a Rhino, my KMKs ( I’ve four in total) usually blows that up then Dakka Jet takes care of the contents. Also, Stormboyz will ensure you get the first charge against Beserkers as they’re so fast.
Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.
And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.
Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.
I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.
TedNugent wrote: Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.
And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.
Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.
I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.
That is 25 inches on average. So with reroll charges you should get there often enough. The only problem is that those Nob Bikerz, even without upgrades are WAY too expensive. And realistically you don't want to upgrade shooting. 42pts for a bare bones Nob Biker isn't incredible. And 3 wounds on a T5 4+ save model isn't exactly hard to kill. If anything this would bring back MSU bikes....except we have the Rule of 3 now....
TedNugent wrote: Something just occurred to me. Since the Warboss now confers Waaagh to Biker units, you could now move, advance, shoot and charge with Nob Bikers in the same turn.
And since you can do all three, it seems like Kombi Skorchas could be a thing.
Now all of a sudden that's a shoota + a TL Dakka gun on 6's plus a skorcha autohitting per model. Then you can assault.
I think this appeals to me. I know it's expensive as hell, but that is high speed (14" + D6" + 2D6" assault + 1" reach) and combines serious shooting with substantial assault. I want to do this... primarily because it's way more exciting than anything else I can think of.
I gave nob bikers a couple of tries since I have a unit converted and painted from 5th, but almost every game they were simply gunned down by some multi-damage weapon with decent AP. And while the ~24" charge and skorcha range is tempting, you won't be reaching something valuable unless your opponent made a deployment error - or - whatever valuable things they could reach they can't kill. PKs and BC don't really do a ton of damage, so you might find yourself bouncing off a manticore. You also don't want nob bikers to fight a model with a 3 damage CCW.
Last, but not least dakka guns suffer the same fate as big shootas of not actually being good at killing anything at all, since S5 rarely matters over S4, and when it does, the target has good armor and the dakka gun no AP.
If you do want field them anyways, you could go the path of just trying a threat overload. Dakka jets, burna bommers, buggies, skorchas, mek guns and trukks all fall into the same "armor class" as nob bikers, so if there is enough stuff actually causing damage, you might get them to pull off a decent turn 2 assault. Sadly, most of my opponents played during 5th, so they will turn any nob bikers they see into a crater ASAP.
this would probably be stupid and just not work?...I dunno...if you have plenty of LoS-blocking terrain to hide behind to set this up...would it be at all worth it, to get say, a 30-man mob of sluggaboyz, with a PK nob...and 2-3 10-man sluggaboyz with PK nobz, and spend 2-3 turns mobbing them up into one big blob of 50-60...maybe with gazza, KFF bigmek, waaagh banner nob, and a painboy?...with whatever reamaining points spent on say, stormboyz, or another couple units of boyz or something, to run forward and hold things up while you get that meatball set up?
...it's a dumb idea, right?
...I'm just kinda inspired by currently being 3-0 in 750-point games, running gazza, kff bigmek, waaagh banner nob, 30 boyz with pk nob, 17 boyz with pk nob, and 10 boyz with pk nob...mob up for 27-man...boyz and pk nobz with 5 attacks each on the charge, hitting on 2+, 3+ for the PK's...all 3 have been close games, but the boyz take care of enough stuff while acting as just enough ablative wounds, so that when it's down to basically just the characters, there's usually just scraps of the enemy army left, that gazza just doesn't care about, and handily finishes off
Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.
Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.
Can someone explain KFF in green tide. How many full size boyz mobs can actually fit within a KFF and how realistic is this thing at providing consistent protection? I keep thinking another point now is that boyz get 6+ saves against non-rend weapons, but mostly I'm just worried that the "entirely within 9" rule would make these difficult to maneuver correctly for the benefit to take into effect. Plus, they're kind of expensive...
TedNugent wrote: Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.
Can someone please explain the KFF usage now that casualties are no longer from the front - do you just allocate wounds to the models within the buff? This seems like it'd be finnicky with a lot of models, but it doesn't sound like complete trash like 7th ed.
Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.
yeah, the 2 40-mobs would probably be better actually. I just like the idea of one huge mob
with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.
the banner...well, hitting on 2+ with boyz just helps to maximise their output I guess...but it also effectively negates the -1 to hit for the PK nobz...he also has "keepin' order", which can make the last of your boyz stick around just a little longer...and I guess the kustom shoota, and the banner itself (basically a big choppa) aren't nothing...but yeah, I guess you could just take more boyz...but, meh, I like it.
with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.
Do both mobs fit in under the KFF? I'm sort of worried that if I was making a green tide list, it would end up being useless since I would only be able to fit a mob or maybe two at most
with the KFF, the entire unit has to be within 9" to receive the buff...so if you're allocating wounds to a unit receiving the KFF buff, then you would be allocating them to models within the buff ...I can't speak for it's overall effectiveness, I mean, a 5+ only against shooting doesn't sound too great...but, I have passed an awful lot of saves with it, so I dunno, I like it.
Do both mobs fit in under the KFF? I'm sort of worried that if I was making a green tide list, it would end up being useless since I would only be able to fit a mob or maybe two at most
I was quite worried about that too, but it's an almost 20" circle...2 30-mobs can definitely fit within that, which will at least give them that 5+ while they cross the table, and during overwatch...then they'll charge and be in combat, so if they get out of the buff at that point, it doesn't matter
wonder how 4 30-mobs, and 2 kff bigmeks would go...
I wouldn't bother with KFF and/or the banner with a green tide. The KFF maybe only if there are stormboyz in the list or is a mix with hordes and vehicles. Anyway it's possible to include under the KFF bubble up to 90 orks.
Usually the anti horde weapons are AP- and paying 75+ points for upgrading the boyz save from 6+ to 5+ isn't worth it. Sometimes it does, see the assault cannons spam but in my experience the 6+/6+ granted by the stock t-shirt save and the painboy buff is enough, fielding more bodies is better.
I'm not a fan of the banner either (which IMHO is 25ish points overcosted) since boyz usually do their job anyway. Weridboyz with warpath is an auto take for green tides.
TedNugent wrote: Why not just have 2 mobs of 30 and 2 mobs of ten and merge two squads of 40 instead of one of 50-60.
Also - why bother with the banner? It's only a small relative increase. You could just get more 13 boyz for the same cost that can absorb damage instead. Eg. you could take 2 30 man mobs, plus your 10 man mob for mob up.
Can someone explain KFF in green tide. How many full size boyz mobs can actually fit within a KFF and how realistic is this thing at providing consistent protection? I keep thinking another point now is that boyz get 6+ saves against non-rend weapons, but mostly I'm just worried that the "entirely within 9" rule would make these difficult to maneuver correctly for the benefit to take into effect. Plus, they're kind of expensive...
In theory you can get four or even five mobs under the KFF, in practice you usually have two underneath with no problem. The 9" radius covers a lot more area than it sounds, 30 boyz usually take up 6"x5" which easily fits underneath. I suggest trying it out on your dinner table, you'll see.
IMO the main job of the KFF is reducing the casualties from getting shot during the first two turns. During deployment having most of your army within a single KFF is no problem, so when you don't have first turn, at least you take less casualties. When mobs start to spread out for objectives or are getting off charges, I consider the KFF to be nice to have, trying to move the mek to cover as much as possible, but the mobs not going out of their way to stay inside the KFF:
Thanks for the interesting and knowledgeable commentary.
I've got 30 loose sluggas and a based warboss, so I think I'll try that out so that I can get an idea.
I'm still hung up on the 5" movement speed. With a run, you're talking an average of 8.5" a turn with a green tide. With movement largely reliant on random run ranges, you'd also have that shaking up things like KFF ranges, the 3" bubble of the painboy slaking off, warboss bubbles, banner bubbles, etc as massive units crawled up the board. 1" run here, 6" there. So to keep in buff coherency you might even need to cut your run to the lowest common denominator.
With basic marines having a 6" movement speed where they can move and shoot with all weapons, including heavy weapons - is "kiting" not an issue?
I was thinking of a unit - whether that is storm boyz, buggies, transports, bikes, or deff koptas - to tie up the enemy while the boyz lumber across the table. If they are fixed in place, they cannot shoot, they must spend their movement falling back out of combat (another advantage compared to prior editions where they were locked until they failed morale and risked a sweep; MEQs combat tactics excluded).
Storm boyz are fragile, the models are expensive and come in tiny little kits, and those other units seem sub-par to me.
Is movement an issue with green tide - I'm especially worried about getting "kited" across the board when shooting could be blowing craters in boyz units. 2-3 turns of shooting could be devastating.
I know the typical answer is "more boyz." But more boyz isn't going to initiate combat faster.
Also, everyone seems to poo-poo anything that's not storm boyz in the fast attack options and conventional wisdom is that you want the army moving at more or less the same speed. I just don't know that footslogging sluggas are fast enough to even reach a gun line if I have the misfortune of getting a short table edge.
Personally, I think transports still make a lot of sense if just to avoid this, and mob up seems like it has the potential of mitigating at least part of my transport capacity woes.
Am I basically stuck with storm boyz for this role? Deff Koptas seem like they're around 15-20 points overcosted, but at least a lone kopta seems like it might be able to deal with the new 2nd floor ruins ruling and tie up a 2nd floor heavy weapons unit. I played against a guy using the (greatly superior) bloat drone and I was impressed with how he LOS'd behind a building and just hopped over it to assault my unit of devastators in a ruin, effectively taking them out of commission on turn 2.
If you want a pure green tide then yes, stormboyz are your best friends as FA, maybe even a plane but you have to field at least some artillery or all the anti tank in the world will go against the flyer.
IMHO koptas are 40 points overcosted. I'd avoid them completely at the moment.
I usually play with vehicles and single skorchas are definitely not bad. Planes can even shine in mechanized lists.
An horde oriented list with also 4-6 KMKs, two trukks and plane or a couple skorchas could work in a meta that is not extremely competitive. The KFF big mek could make sense for shielding stormboyz and a couple of trukks and/or the flyer.
That is 25 inches on average. So with reroll charges you should get there often enough. The only problem is that those Nob Bikerz, even without upgrades are WAY too expensive. And realistically you don't want to upgrade shooting. 42pts for a bare bones Nob Biker isn't incredible. And 3 wounds on a T5 4+ save model isn't exactly hard to kill. If anything this would bring back MSU bikes....except we have the Rule of 3 now....
So often 2-3" over average charge needed for t1 assault plus need another squad to shoot skorchas least casualties push charge range further
tneva82 wrote: So often 2-3" over average charge needed for t1 assault plus need another squad to shoot skorchas least casualties push charge range further
Average charge for bikes with boss nearby is 24.5". Enough to get to most targets. Not sure I'd take Skorchas though, if you fire at a target you actively decrease your own chances of making the charge. If you don't make the charge you're getting blown off the table next turn and although that's likely to happen anyway at least you get the opportunity to do some damage. Then again you're damaging what? A screen? Hardly seems worth it for the points investment. Now if they could fly and avoid those pesky screens.....
I saw a discussion earlier on Da Jumping units that had advanced and charging. I think you can do this because when you're moved by a psychic power any persistent effects are lost. I would consider the advance negating charge a persistent effect.
3 x 30 Boyz can easily fit under a KFF, it doesn't look great imo but it can be done definitely.
I'm having real trouble with my list at the moment, unfortunately I'm up against lists that can reliably delete upto 30 boys a turn in shooting. My last couple of games have gone really hard, particularly against a strong tau gun line and dark angel bikes and fliers. We use plenty of LoS blocking terrain, but their manoeuvrability and firepower just tears the heart out my army consistently often before we've even begun. It's disheartening. We have a bump up in points of 260 in May, but tbh I'm not sure where to go at the minute.
Discussing it with one of my regular opponents, I'm thinking of trialling truck rush as an alternative supported by kff big mek on bike. Chucking stormboyz in just feels like a waste of points.
At the moment we're limited to 880 points, but will add another 260 in May. I'm currently on;
880pts
Battalion +5cp
Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump
25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 9 slugga choppa, Nob BC
Dakkajet 6x supa shootas
Spearhead +1cp
Big Mek KFF
Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK
Thinking of adjusting numbers of Boyz, adding a battle wagon, min unit of kommandos with burnas and 3 more KMKs, but I'm not sure how effective that will be TBH.
We were doing OK, but being practically wiped off the board for very little damage inflicted and no objectives achieved in the last 2 games has taken the wind out of my sails and am trying to critically re-evaluate where to go from here.
Which are 882 points if I've done the math right. If you cut one of the nobz pks and replace it with a big choppa you can stay within the 880 points budget. Unfortunately vehicles are really expensive for lists under 1000 points and quite hard to fit effectively.
ZoBo wrote: ok, I gotta ask, because I'm just not really seeing the big appeal...what's so good about KMK's?
...I mean, yeah, it's 4+ hits...but...D6 shots? MW itself on 1's to hit?...ehhh :/
Cheap, durable plasma cannon, most cost effective ranged unit in the index, 6w t5, cheap objective camper, high str/ap, multi-damage
Did I mention you can take 4 for less than a boyz mob? Then have the gunners roam off to hold objectives while the guns keep firing away? Also repairable if you’re into that
ZoBo wrote: ok, I gotta ask, because I'm just not really seeing the big appeal...what's so good about KMK's?
...I mean, yeah, it's 4+ hits...but...D6 shots? MW itself on 1's to hit?...ehhh :/
You get decent to hit, good strength, good AP, ok damage and good range on a relatively durable platform for cheap. They do roughly twice as much damage as lootas and are way more durable than them.
That's all there really is to it, in other codices the KMK wouldn't stand out as much. For example, imperial basilisks are pretty much the same damage per points, but twice the range.
The mortal wound really doesn't matter a lot unless facing -1 to hit since the one or two MW you get per game rarely kill the KMK.
r_squared wrote: I'm having real trouble with my list at the moment, unfortunately I'm up against lists that can reliably delete upto 30 boys a turn in shooting. My last couple of games have gone really hard, particularly against a strong tau gun line and dark angel bikes and fliers. We use plenty of LoS blocking terrain, but their manoeuvrability and firepower just tears the heart out my army consistently often before we've even begun. It's disheartening. We have a bump up in points of 260 in May, but tbh I'm not sure where to go at the minute.
Discussing it with one of my regular opponents, I'm thinking of trialling truck rush as an alternative supported by kff big mek on bike. Chucking stormboyz in just feels like a waste of points.
At the moment we're limited to 880 points, but will add another 260 in May. I'm currently on;
880pts
Battalion +5cp
Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump
25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 9 slugga choppa, Nob BC
Dakkajet 6x supa shootas
Spearhead +1cp
Big Mek KFF
Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK
Thinking of adjusting numbers of Boyz, adding a battle wagon, min unit of kommandos with burnas and 3 more KMKs, but I'm not sure how effective that will be TBH.
We were doing OK, but being practically wiped off the board for very little damage inflicted and no objectives achieved in the last 2 games has taken the wind out of my sails and am trying to critically re-evaluate where to go from here.
Sounds like they have adjusted their lists to deal with your hoards. Try really shaking up your list for a few games to throw them off.
Maybe try:
Killa Kans
Lobbas just to mess with the tau markerlights
All scorcha Nobs (5 man) in a truckk, expensive but just fun to wipe out a whole unit of tau in the shooting phase
An extra warboss with BC to jump lone into the backfield just to make your opponent say WTF?
In other words play crazy and unpredictable for a few games so they can't tailor the list against you.
@Hamstring Pulla & Jidmah
hmm...ok, fair enough...I might have to do a couple of games with some proxies to try them out I think...some decent ranged damage could be quite handy I guess...
ZoBo wrote: ok, I gotta ask, because I'm just not really seeing the big appeal...what's so good about KMK's?
...I mean, yeah, it's 4+ hits...but...D6 shots? MW itself on 1's to hit?...ehhh :/
Compare to a Plasma Cannon devastator (34 points). 3+ to hit, D3 shots, 1 damage, S7. If overcharged, there is a 16.7% chance of instantly removing the firing model, in exchange for damage 2 and S8. Behind a 3+ T4 and 1 wound.
D6 shots averages 3.5 shots. D3 averages 2.
KMK volume of fire, durability and damage output is a superb value, and is the only shooting unit in the ork index that reliably compares to the shooting output of codex armies. As much as a mortal wound on a 6 wound model sucks, compare that to overcharging a plasma gun.
Whatever model fired the shot is instantly removed from play on a 1 to hit.
Am I basically stuck with storm boyz for this role? Deff Koptas seem like they're around 15-20 points overcosted, but at least a lone kopta seems like it might be able to deal with the new 2nd floor ruins ruling and tie up a 2nd floor heavy weapons unit.
You still need to keep the model standing within 1" of the enemy. Koptas are worse at it cause they have bases that are further away from the hull, so if you glitch the model at the edge of the ruin - cause that's how you play around this rule - the base will still be further than 1" away, so you won't reach combat. Regular boyz are easy to glitch cause they have hooky bits like choppas and when you hook them up to the second level of the ruin and place the base a bit diagonally, it gets within 1" of the enemy's base. However, boyz have problems actually reaching there because they aren't too fast. Stormboyz are fast and not that large, besedis, some of them can be hooked with leg and jumppack parts making getting within 1" even easier. Besides, they have smaller bases than koptas and can be easier placed on the level of the ruin itself when enemies get thinned out or don't occupy all space.
Ignore the DeffKoptas, I LOVE THEM! I have like 12 but they are trash right now. They are about 30-40pts over priced for what little they do, they HAVE to be taken in 1-2 model squads because of their abysmal leadership and there damage output is minuscule to say the least.
KMK is our version of a Plasma Cannon. Its pretty good, it isn't good enough though to make us a gunline army, but I have never once taken them and thought "Damn I wish I hadn't taken those".
Last tourny I went to I had 5 of them and they just kept plopping pot shots into Heavy infantry or vehicles and the look on my opponents faces when they realized Ork shooting had just killed something was spectacular. They will probably not be an allstar unit for you but they are worth taking if for no other reason then being really good at holding objectives and stopping linebreaker.
To add to the KMK discussion, I've been running a Mek Boy with Grot Oiler to assist with keeping my Mek Gunz up. The mortal wounds that are self inflicted by the Mek Gunz aren't enough to validate the Mek Boy but I find myself relying on him a lot when the opponent decides to target the Mek Gunz.
Considering I run 4 KMK's, I've effectively added 6-7 points to the cost of each of them just to add a bit of durability. I think it's definitely worth it given the frustrated responses from opponents.
r_squared wrote: I'm having real trouble with my list at the moment, unfortunately I'm up against lists that can rreliably delete upto 30 boys a turn in shooting. My last couple of games have gone really hard, particularly against a strong tau gun line and dark angel bikes and fliers. We use plenty of LoS blocking terrain, but their manoeuvrability and firepower just tears the heart out my army consistently often before we've even begun. It's disheartening. We have a bump up in points of 260 in May, but tbh I'm not sure where to go at the minute.
Discussing it with one of my regular opponents, I'm thinking of trialling truck rush as an alternative supported by kff big mek on bike. Chucking stormboyz in just feels like a waste of points.
At the moment we're limited to 880 points, but will add another 260 in May. I'm currently on;
880pts
Battalion +5cp
Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump
25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 9 slugga choppa, Nob BC
Dakkajet 6x supa shootas
Spearhead +1cp
Big Mek KFF
Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK
Thinking of adjusting numbers of Boyz, adding a battle wagon, min unit of kommandos with burnas and 3 more KMKs, but I'm not sure how effective that will be TBH.
We were doing OK, but being practically wiped off the board for very little damage inflicted and no objectives achieved in the last 2 games has taken the wind out of my sails and am trying to critically re-evaluate where to go from here.
Sounds like they have adjusted their lists to deal with your hoards. Try really shaking up your list for a few games to throw them off.
Maybe try:
Killa Kans
Lobbas just to mess with the tau markerlights
All scorcha Nobs (5 man) in a truckk, expensive but just fun to wipe out a whole unit of tau in the shooting phase
An extra warboss with BC to jump lone into the backfield just to make your opponent say WTF?
In other words play crazy and unpredictable for a few games so they can't tailor the list against you.
Well my regular Tau opponent has definitely taken hordes into consideration with every expansion, but the Dark Angels player regularly trounces everyone with his bike and speeder focused army. His firepower and re-rolls are just pure filth and he rolls around the board in a near unstoppable buff bubble.
The campaign means we can only build on what we've already taken, and each month we increase by 280 points. So basically I'm stuck with what I have and can only add to it. Because the other guys know I'm struggling, they're cool with me adjusting my boyz mobs down in number to squeeze them into battle wagons if I need to, but that's about it for flexibility.
I had considered lobbas, their range and ability to hit out of sight targets combined with str5 is useful, but I've rolled it out and it just doesn't seem to put out enough damage, even taking 3 units. I may give them a go though. My last game I ended up wasting KMK shots into small groups of drones and firewarriors, which felt pretty gakky.
r_squared wrote: I'm having real trouble with my list at the moment, unfortunately I'm up against lists that can rreliably delete upto 30 boys a turn in shooting. My last couple of games have gone really hard, particularly against a strong tau gun line and dark angel bikes and fliers. We use plenty of LoS blocking terrain, but their manoeuvrability and firepower just tears the heart out my army consistently often before we've even begun. It's disheartening. We have a bump up in points of 260 in May, but tbh I'm not sure where to go at the minute.
Discussing it with one of my regular opponents, I'm thinking of trialling truck rush as an alternative supported by kff big mek on bike. Chucking stormboyz in just feels like a waste of points.
At the moment we're limited to 880 points, but will add another 260 in May. I'm currently on;
880pts
Battalion +5cp
Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump
25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 25 slugga choppa, Nob BC 9 slugga choppa, Nob BC
Dakkajet 6x supa shootas
Spearhead +1cp
Big Mek KFF
Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK Mek gun KMK
Thinking of adjusting numbers of Boyz, adding a battle wagon, min unit of kommandos with burnas and 3 more KMKs, but I'm not sure how effective that will be TBH.
We were doing OK, but being practically wiped off the board for very little damage inflicted and no objectives achieved in the last 2 games has taken the wind out of my sails and am trying to critically re-evaluate where to go from here.
Sounds like they have adjusted their lists to deal with your hoards. Try really shaking up your list for a few games to throw them off.
Maybe try:
Killa Kans
Lobbas just to mess with the tau markerlights
All scorcha Nobs (5 man) in a truckk, expensive but just fun to wipe out a whole unit of tau in the shooting phase
An extra warboss with BC to jump lone into the backfield just to make your opponent say WTF?
In other words play crazy and unpredictable for a few games so they can't tailor the list against you.
Well my regular Tau opponent has definitely taken hordes into consideration with every expansion, but the Dark Angels player regularly trounces everyone with his bike and speeder focused army. His firepower and re-rolls are just pure filth and he rolls around the board in a near unstoppable buff bubble.
The campaign means we can only build on what we've already taken, and each month we increase by 280 points. So basically I'm stuck with what I have and can only add to it. Because the other guys know I'm struggling, they're cool with me adjusting my boyz mobs down in number to squeeze them into battle wagons if I need to, but that's about it for flexibility.
I had considered lobbas, their range and ability to hit out of sight targets combined with str5 is useful, but I've rolled it out and it just doesn't seem to put out enough damage, even taking 3 units. I may give them a go though. My last game I ended up wasting KMK shots into small groups of drones and firewarriors, which felt pretty gakky.
The Dark Angels player is trouble. The dual speeder char combo is indeed pretty filthy. Sammael gives 100% rerolls to hit to ravenwing and the talonmaster gives rerolls of 1 to wound, each within 6" on a 14" movement speed fly platform.
Both of them have a TL Heavy Bolter and a TL Assault Cannon, for 18 shots apiece in the range of roughly 200 PPM. Considering their buffs, their durability and versatility, speed, and close combat abilities, with 5 and 4 close combat attacks respectively (or 5 and 5 if you take a free relic power sword with the usual D3 damage), there's a reason they showed up in nearly all tournament lists.
Black Knights are going to be basically meh against ork boyz, though. If he takes Ravenwing bikers, their TL Boltguns plus 2 specials per unit would be extremely unfriendly to hordes.
So it would depend on how anti-horde the Tau player is.
KMKs are simply the best shooting unit in the ork index. They're simply the best, most durable static platform for shooting available for orks.
But honestly the biggest problem with your list is - 59 ork boyz? No wonder you're getting shot off the board. Why not use a paltry 186 of your 280 points to bump those three units up to 30 man mobs. Then, add a second ten man mob for 73 points with a klaw. Turn one, mob them up with a 30 man squad and jump the resulting 40 man squad with two nobs with nasty chopping implements and +1 attack from greentide somewhere where your enemy doesn't want them. That's 259 points and gives you 42 more wounds for each of your boyz squads, plus an additional power klaw and green tide+ mob rule for each squad. Keep the other two units within KFF and warboss range.
You know, I'd love for someone to do some "Money/Point" calculations. 'cause people say "Why not add an extra 40 Boyz", assuming that everyone can afford an extra 40 boyz. I know when I started collecting/playing Orks, I took the most points-expensive units I could, just because that was the cheapest way to start building an army I could actually play with.
Anvildude wrote: You know, I'd love for someone to do some "Money/Point" calculations. 'cause people say "Why not add an extra 40 Boyz", assuming that everyone can afford an extra 40 boyz. I know when I started collecting/playing Orks, I took the most points-expensive units I could, just because that was the cheapest way to start building an army I could actually play with.
The giant piles of orks are beginning to dry up, but there are generally dozens of auctions ongoing on Ebay for 10 slugga boys.
They run substantially cheaper when bought in bulk than I think anything else that is even remotely competitive with an official model on a points per dollar spent basis.
For one thing, the two suggestions that were brought up by the gentleman I was responding to was battlewagons and KMKs, both of which are going to run massive tallies by GW retail prices, unless the KMKs can be played outside of GW stores with unofficial models.
Either way, 59 ork boyz is not sufficient. I thought the consensus was at least 90. I'm not saying that to be flippant about someone's cash.
Anvildude wrote: You know, I'd love for someone to do some "Money/Point" calculations. 'cause people say "Why not add an extra 40 Boyz", assuming that everyone can afford an extra 40 boyz. I know when I started collecting/playing Orks, I took the most points-expensive units I could, just because that was the cheapest way to start building an army I could actually play with.
Conversely I've found boyz the easiest unit to add to my collection, outside of the start collecting box I haven't bought any boyz from GW. I think I've managed to get 100 boyz purely through second hand lots and deals. They've all been a fraction of the retail price too, some were even still on their sprue. My suggestion would be to use craigslist/gumtree, ebay, and find a buy swap sell on facebook. A lot of people dig up old armies from when they were younger and are just looking to sell them off to someone who will actually use them.
Anvildude wrote: You know, I'd love for someone to do some "Money/Point" calculations. 'cause people say "Why not add an extra 40 Boyz", assuming that everyone can afford an extra 40 boyz. I know when I started collecting/playing Orks, I took the most points-expensive units I could, just because that was the cheapest way to start building an army I could actually play with.
Conversely I've found boyz the easiest unit to add to my collection, outside of the start collecting box I haven't bought any boyz from GW. I think I've managed to get 100 boyz purely through second hand lots and deals. They've all been a fraction of the retail price too, some were even still on their sprue. My suggestion would be to use craigslist/gumtree, ebay, and find a buy swap sell on facebook. A lot of people dig up old armies from when they were younger and are just looking to sell them off to someone who will actually use them.
yup, ebay is how you build an ork army I think I've got over 300 boyz now, and I only bought 1 actual boyz kit from GW, and I guess another boyz kit via the shadow war armageddon box...and I guess at a stretch, a boyz kit was included with the gargantuan squiggoth...aside from that though, all my boyz have come from ebay...about 1/3 pre-painted that need stripping, and 2/3 on-sprue/assembled/primed...and I'd say they've cost me maybe a quarter the price of buying them all from GW
buying the ideal 120 boyz from GW is kinda ludicrous, at least at australian prices anyway...AU$576...for 4 troop squads, or 772 points(with power klaws...720 without)
ZoBo wrote: ok, I gotta ask, because I'm just not really seeing the big appeal...what's so good about KMK's?
...I mean, yeah, it's 4+ hits...but...D6 shots? MW itself on 1's to hit?...ehhh :/
You get decent to hit, good strength, good AP, ok damage and good range on a relatively durable platform for cheap. They do roughly twice as much damage as lootas and are way more durable than them.
That's all there really is to it, in other codices the KMK wouldn't stand out as much. For example, imperial basilisks are pretty much the same damage per points, but twice the range.
The mortal wound really doesn't matter a lot unless facing -1 to hit since the one or two MW you get per game rarely kill the KMK.
Can we all just recognise how good KMK really are? Not just in the ork codex. So, you're comparing the KMK to one of the best (if not the best) artillery unit here, and KMK comes in even. Not to mention 10 immortal grots at the cost of LOS shooting.
If KMK were not 60 AUD each, people would be complaining about them. I have been playing them for almost a year now, and every tournament I go to I bring more. I'm up to 12 now and the correct number to bring is probably 18.
To be fair the kmk is great however orks lack the reroll 1s to hit, reroll damage dice or whatever shooting buffs other armies get. That’s not a knock on kmk but orks lack of a codex. Kmk will only get better.
hollow one wrote: Can we all just recognise how good KMK really are? Not just in the ork codex. So, you're comparing the KMK to one of the best (if not the best) artillery unit here, and KMK comes in even. Not to mention 10 immortal grots at the cost of LOS shooting.
Their range and no LOS is part if why basilisks are so good though - they will always be able to shoot whatever they want without moving. With KMK you will find yourself out of range or out of sight quite often.
If KMK were not 60 AUD each, people would be complaining about them. I have been playing them for almost a year now, and every tournament I go to I bring more. I'm up to 12 now and the correct number to bring is probably 18.
Probably, if kanz, lootas and koptaz were less crap, they decision would be a lot less obvious though. I don't think KMK are an OP unit, but rather an example of how all our shooting units should be.
Anvildude wrote: You know, I'd love for someone to do some "Money/Point" calculations. 'cause people say "Why not add an extra 40 Boyz", assuming that everyone can afford an extra 40 boyz. I know when I started collecting/playing Orks, I took the most points-expensive units I could, just because that was the cheapest way to start building an army I could actually play with.
It can be. I've got 96 blood axe boyz, all in camo. I've resisted buying more, mostly for the fear of having to paint more of them. Also, If our codex changes our army, what would I do with 200 boyz if they become crap?
I agree, people want everything immediately. I started collecting orks in late 90s, haven't added anything to my collection since years and still got a lot of stuff to paint. I'm ok with that.
Painting 200 orks is not an issue if you like the miniatures and painting them. Painting 200 orks within a year certainly is.
It also a matter of priorities, I'd rather invest 300+ euro in GW stuff if I get a very good deal and paint every model in 10+ years than buying 1-2 boxes with no (or little) discount and have those miniatures painted quickly.
WalrusTaco wrote: There's a lot of talk of boyz on here, but I'm currently building a dread mob army. Thus far, I have the following:
1 Big Mek with KFF 1 Nob with Waaagh Banner
12 Killa Kans
1 Meka Dread which I converted from a Dreadknight
I also have Kaptin Badrukk and 10 Flash Gitz, but I mostly bought them for fun.
What else would you recommend I add within the bounds of a Mek/dread mob army?
The gorkanaut is pretty good within the confines of a dreadmob list. Outside of one it is considered somewhat mediocre, but that's often because you are just throwing a big armored target in with a horde and activating all your enemy's anti-tank. With other armor in the list it's quite nasty- 18 str8 -2 ap 2 damage attacks at WS 3+ (2+ with the banner nob!) is no joke; statistically it almost always outperforms the 6 str 16 attacks unless dealing with a LoW without invuls. Good at smashing armor and hordes, and being able to fall back and shoot/charge makes it impossible to tarpit. With a bigmek repairing it, it takes a lot of concentrated firepower to remove. I plan on making a mekadread myself with the supa charge or whatever it's called to threaten t1 charges and draw fire off of my gorka (coincidentally, I'm converting mine from a dreadknight too, with plans to make it WYSIWYG as a morkanaut as well- I'd love to see some pics of your conversion if you have any!)
Deffdreads are really, really bad apart from just saturating the field with more high toughness value targets. I only use them because I own the models. Killa kanz play more like heavy infantry in this regard so don't help to much to over saturate with armor if your opponent is good at target prioritization, but I find typically their appearance and high wound value confuses opponents who end up splitting lascannons and the like between kanz and 'nauts when they ought to be putting heavy bolters/multilasers/assault cannons into the kanz and saving the lascannons for the nauts.
It's for the above reason that I actually like to still run a fair number of boyz with my dreadmobs, especially if running kanz. Anti-infantry weapons like shooting kanz just fine really, and without boyz you make your opponent's target selection pretty simple. I run 90 boyz with my dreadmob so that the anti-infantry still needs to prioritize them and the anti-tank has to be split amongst my kanz and bigger stompers. It also lends you the board control you need that dreads don't really provide. Kanz are shooty enough that they don't mind sitting on objectives, but all our dreads are slow (apart from mekadread with supa charge on t1) and aren't very durable, so we have trouble claiming objectives with them and holding when we do. Boyz blob around and can be jumped. Unfortunately, dreadmob is pretty bad so the more green tide you incorporate into the list the better you are gunna do, sadly. I'm looking to add 30 stormboyz to my mob to give it more t1 pressure and body count. Perhaps a dreadmob would do better taking just stormboyz instead of any slugga/shootas to focus on providing fast pressure and flying over screens to engage and deactivate anti-tank. I'd like to try it but I currently don't have enough stormboyz to do the experiment any justice.
Also, the more i play with it, the more I feel the transport capacity for the orkanauts are a trap. I can only see putting burna boyz, nobz, or meganobz in them due to limited size. Burna boyz are really bad, so no point in that, and regular nobz really need ammo runtz to give them the wound allocation gimmick to make them worth taking, so that makes the transport capacity too small to be worth it. I'm playing around more with 3 meganobz with dual killsawz though. Gorka helps with their speed issue and their profile wants to be shot at by the same guns that want to shoot at your various stompers so they don't suffer from the same anti-tank activation problem they do in a green tide. In addition, They synergize well with another buffing unit I feel is only worth taking in a dreadmob list: The banner nob. Good on you for having one of these. Typically, this guy is just very expensive and just helps boyz overkill things more but in a worse way than warpath does, and he's another stupid bubble to keep your big blobs within. Dread variants don't really benefit from warpath due to small unit size, but their small number of high-value attacks get a lot of benefit out of the increased accuracy they get from a banner nob. It's easier to keep them close to him, and he really helps cover the weakness of killa kanz in melee and makes sure they get real utility out of their kan klaws and the Scrag 'em! rule. Killsaw meganobz normally suffer from WS 4+ but the banner nob fixes this. I am still experimenting with these guys and seeing if they really help out or just make the gorkanaut a bigger target.
I'm playing around with an "Elite" ork army idea with Gorka+Morkanaut (or maybe just two gorkanauts; they are so much better honestly) both filled with dual killsaw meganobz as the core of the list. When I finally get the models put together I'll report back and let folks know how a reverse green tide works (attempting to over saturate enemy anti-tank rather than anti-infantry). I doubt I'll find some hidden secret power list as I feel almost any other faction can do the "way too much heavy armor" thing much better than orks can, but it could be worth it to thwart list-tailoring players... Tell your opponent you are bringing orks so he fills up on flamers and assault cannons and then show up with this instead! Keep your opponents honest when list building against you and maybe make your games as green tide easier once they no longer feel comfortable dropping all the anti-tank from their lists when planning to play against you! And who knows, if it's half-decent enough in it's own right, that may be enough for me to get a healthy break from moving so much infantry around without resigning myself to getting wiped off the table even in casual matches. The freedom to not always have to lug around 200+ models to play a game might make this list worth it regardless of its comparative effectiveness.
On the subject of KMK's, I am now taking 10 of them since I believe they are the best shooting unit that we have access to.
I have been trying to find the second best shooting unit; which I now think is Dakkajets. I am steeling a tactic from a Space Marine player; in which I strafe my back field for the first turn, only moving forward enough get range on a unit. I see allot of players throw their fliers in my face turn 1, and wonder why they immediately die.
Since Chinorks are now open topped, has anyone used the effectively yet. I am not sure what to put in them.
My first thought is tankbustaz, but I have become disillusioned with them. Units with fly negate bomb squigs, and occasionally there are armies with no vehicles, which means tankbustaz become dead weight. My second thought is burnaz but I worry their damage output is not high enough to justify their cost. Thoughts?
TedNugent wrote: ...But honestly the biggest problem with your list is - 59 ork boyz? No wonder you're getting shot off the board. Why not use a paltry 186 of your 280 points to bump those three units up to 30 man mobs. Then, add a second ten man mob for 73 points with a klaw. Turn one, mob them up with a 30 man squad and jump the resulting 40 man squad with two nobs with nasty chopping implements and +1 attack from greentide somewhere where your enemy doesn't want them. That's 259 points and gives you 42 more wounds for each of your boyz squads, plus an additional power klaw and green tide+ mob rule for each squad. Keep the other two units within KFF and warboss range.
I used to run green tide in 7th so have over 100 choppa sluggas and 60 shoota Boyz painted and based. I used to mob up the 10 Boyz with one of the 25 and da jump them in, but no matter where I go, they tend to get blown off the table. The Tau player can often use his montka ability to advance his entire army out of position and open up with all weapons including heavy. One unit of 10 firewarriors with the right buffs and at 18/21" (half a buffed out 36"/ 42" rapid fire range) puts out enough firepower to rip apart 35 Boyz with no trouble, 3 shots each, hitting on 3s,wounding on 3s and with only a 6 up save means that anything that's left standing after the gun drones have had their turn disappears to morale. I'm not joking, it's brutal.
It's tempting to run a list like this;
1160pts
Battalion +5cp
Warboss HWKC
Weird boy da jump
29 slugga choppa, Nob BC 29 slugga choppa, Nob BC 29 shoota, Nob BC
Tons of great shooting (for orks) and tons of bodies, but I'm still going to lose a mob a turn most likely. However, i'm not sure doubling down on big, easily targetable mobz will change the outcome much. It feels like I'm doing the exact same thing, but expecting a different result, the definition of insanity.
tneva82 wrote: 30 shots if -1ap will kill 14 or so. 20 guy left, immune to morale. 10 guys like that in average will thus not kill squad
I don't know the names of the Tau stratagems but fire warriors can easily be buffed- add in gun drones and it's really not hard for firewarriors to remove 20+ orks in one go. Suddenly you're testing moral at -20 or worse; especially problematic for a jumped squad that can't borrow the Ld of a nearby mob. Tau mobility is really dangerous and I think stormboy-heavy lists are necessary to bring our strengths to bear quickly enough and consistently enough; even footsloggers that weather the storm against Tau and find something to charge often find that the rest of their army has gone elsewhere, and then don't have the ability to chase them down before being whittled to nothing.
r-squared, how has your dakkajet been serving you in these matchups? Another one might be a good idea. They have the mobility and range to stay in the fight against mobile Tau or Dark Angels, are harder to shoot at, and really tear fire warriors up. They kill about 5 on average and that should be enough to force a threatening moral test.
Well i made calculation with numbers given . Don't know strategems so no idea where they more than 50% firepower needed for 10 firewarriors with 3 shots they get. Those already are buffed if they hit on 3+
Guys I'm not disputing the math, but I did mention that there wasnt just one squad of firewarriors, there were also gun drones and all sorts and my boy blob was initially well hidden and out of Los for nearly the lot until the Tau advanced into range and opened up. I lost 20+ boys in one round of shooting, and that was on his weakest flank. Morale then took its toll. I think when the smoke cleared that I had lost 27 Boyz. I had a second mob of 25 Boyz following, but rolled a 4 for morale after a command point re-roll. The last 2 nobz mobbed up with the follow up mob, we retreated and licked our wounds. I was trying to outflank and hit his weakest flank as hard and fast as possible. I figured I'd lose maybe 15 Boyz, possibly some more, but still have enough to charge home and consolidate through his right flank, but the buffs really hit hard. He was also re-rolling hits in there too, it was pretty grim.
The problem with this list is that once the ranged shooting is gone, I'm left with pretty slow, large mobs that are hard to effectively hide and die fast. I've won games, but there's more luck involved than I'd like. Every deployment has to be fully considered, every movement planned, measured and double checked, if you slip up you're toast and there just not the flexibility to get back in the game sometimes. Playing orks at the moment is definitely playing on hard mode. I envy our opponents ability to just shuffle a bit to get LOS and then open up and inflict devastating volleys. Combat seems double hard to achieve at the moment. I've played games using storm Boyz and kommandos to help outflank and saturate with threats, but the killyness of the gun lines just stops most assaults dead.
There is so much more involved in playing an assault based army with medium levels of fire support, it also doesn't help that we're index only and everyone I'm up against has a codex, and so many strategems that help them. Unfortunately I'm committed to the campaign, but at this rate, there won't be any orks left before the codex drops.
@Mantube
The dakka jet is a solid platform, but, like the KMK, it's a hard target priority for all my opponents now. A couple of games and they've learned it's effectiveness, and to also stay out of the way when she blows. Is she makes it to turn 2 it's a bonus tbh. I fly her at the extreme of her range, select pathfinders and marker light drones where I can, or if they leave one of their buff characters out of position I may sacrifice it to take it out if I can. She's fun to play, and dakka dakka helps too. The problem is that she's squishy. A second one would help, but I'd have to reduce mob size, and lose 3 kmks to pay for her (I'd also have to buy another model).
Huh, Battlewagons with storm boyz inside. Interesting. Also no KMK.
That is interesting. I've tried a couple of BW like that in casual games and they are effective, and tough for an opponent to deal with especially with kff protection. They're just such a lot of points.
It's an interesting army composition though, flexible and mobile. It's definitely food for thought.
Huh, Battlewagons with storm boyz inside. Interesting. Also no KMK.
Jidmah, can I ask how you figured the BWs had storm boyz inside?
Jump pack models take up 2 slots, and the two biggest Storm boy units have 18 and 19 boyz respectively. He would only be able to fit the 5 man unit of stormboyz inside the wagon.
Conversely, I can't understand what he's doing with all those 10 man units of ork boyz.
@Mantube
The dakka jet is a solid platform, but, like the KMK, it's a hard target priority for all my opponents now. A couple of games and they've learned it's effectiveness, and to also stay out of the way when she blows. Is she makes it to turn 2 it's a bonus tbh. I fly her at the extreme of her range, select pathfinders and marker light drones where I can, or if they leave one of their buff characters out of position I may sacrifice it to take it out if I can. She's fun to play, and dakka dakka helps too. The problem is that she's squishy. A second one would help, but I'd have to reduce mob size, and lose 3 kmks to pay for her (I'd also have to buy another model).
Your last posted list looks good and puts you up to recommended boyz count as well as filling in more of our best shooting option. I'd run with it as it seems like it's the "fully realized" version of your first list, which looked somewhat constrained. Play it out and see how it goes, perhaps in the next point expansion add the second dakkajet. Redundancy is always going to help with survivability and overall effectiveness. Also, perhaps posting the lists of your opponents that are giving you the most trouble would help us give better advice on how to grow to defeat them. Are the point expansions always going to be 280 points?
Huh, Battlewagons with storm boyz inside. Interesting. Also no KMK.
Jidmah, can I ask how you figured the BWs had storm boyz inside?
Jump pack models take up 2 slots, and the two biggest Storm boy units have 18 and 19 boyz respectively. He would only be able to fit the 5 man unit of stormboyz inside the wagon.
Conversely, I can't understand what he's doing with all those 10 man units of ork boyz.
Small boyz units might be for mob up/chaff purpose. Been thinking of those myself. Screens essential, these work for that and mob up allows some extra shenigans
Huh, Battlewagons with storm boyz inside. Interesting. Also no KMK.
Jidmah, can I ask how you figured the BWs had storm boyz inside?
Jump pack models take up 2 slots, and the two biggest Storm boy units have 18 and 19 boyz respectively. He would only be able to fit the 5 man unit of stormboyz inside the wagon.
Conversely, I can't understand what he's doing with all those 10 man units of ork boyz.
Oh, you're right - I just looked at the numbers for storm boyz and they matched with the character count to become 2x20. Then that list makes even less sense. Is this an ITC tournament? Maybe he was gaming their objective system?
maybe he was trying to confuse his opponents?...the list seems to be quite good to that effect! ...I have no idea what to make of it, or what his plan would've been...
The 2nd place list isn't that strange actually, it's a green tide with the tipycal units with a couple of wagons in addition. I think it's pretty clear that 2 units of 10 boyz and the unit of 20 go inside the transports, while the bigger mob and a min one rely on Mob Up, or maybe it's just the 4x10 man squads that ride in the BWs.
In many metas this list would be illegal though since there are 5 weirdboyz.
I've tried similar lists in several games, actually I even run something very very close to it with two wagons with 4x10 squads of boyz, 2x20 stormboyz, 2x30 boyz on foot, dok, zhad, biker KFF, footslogging KFF, and two weirdboys instead of 5 but 4 KMKs. Alternatively a trukk with 7 bustas and 2 squigs instead of a 30 man mob and a couple of pks (two units of 20 instead of 4x10). I had decent results for casual/semi competitive games but going full mechanized or full green tides gives you a more optimized list according to my experience.
@Mantube
The dakka jet is a solid platform, but, like the KMK, it's a hard target priority for all my opponents now. A couple of games and they've learned it's effectiveness, and to also stay out of the way when she blows. Is she makes it to turn 2 it's a bonus tbh. I fly her at the extreme of her range, select pathfinders and marker light drones where I can, or if they leave one of their buff characters out of position I may sacrifice it to take it out if I can. She's fun to play, and dakka dakka helps too. The problem is that she's squishy. A second one would help, but I'd have to reduce mob size, and lose 3 kmks to pay for her (I'd also have to buy another model).
Your last posted list looks good and puts you up to recommended boyz count as well as filling in more of our best shooting option. I'd run with it as it seems like it's the "fully realized" version of your first list, which looked somewhat constrained. Play it out and see how it goes, perhaps in the next point expansion add the second dakkajet. Redundancy is always going to help with survivability and overall effectiveness. Also, perhaps posting the lists of your opponents that are giving you the most trouble would help us give better advice on how to grow to defeat them. Are the point expansions always going to be 280 points?
I've decided to stick with it with one alteration to mix 10 shootas in with every blob of 30 so that it's not so obvious which unit might da jump, and to deal with annoying screen drones etc. I trialled having mixed units before and dumped it for taking too long, but I've had more practice now and I think it could be useful. This list, as you say, is fully realised and I've effectively doubled my damage output and absorption in one go. It should perform better now. I'm sure I'll still lose a unit a turn, ut only if they focus them down. I know my regular Tau op is bringing a Riptide this month. So that'll be interesting.
As to the points increase, yes every step up is max 280 points until we reach 2000. I am definitely considering another dakkajet, and probably some stormboyz. Ill see how things pan out this month.
I feel like a mixed unit does make sense. You wouldn't be impacting your close combat damage as drastically by only using a few shootas, and like you said you could that way actually have some shooting output while moving up the board. Worst comes to worst you could use them to absorb overwatch wounds before moving into close combat where the pistols would be preferred.
I even wonder about kombi skorchas for that reason. Technically, they can kill a marine on average. Considering that the unit would be advancing regardless and it is an autohit on advance, that doesn't seem that bad, albeit expensive. I hope they drop a few points in the codex, it could make it more interesting to diversify units.
r_squared wrote: Guys I'm not disputing the math, but I did mention that there wasnt just one squad of firewarriors, there were also gun drones and all sorts and my boy blob was initially well hidden and out of Los for nearly the lot until the Tau advanced into range and opened up. I lost 20+ boys in one round of shooting, and that was on his weakest flank. Morale then took its toll. I think when the smoke cleared that I had lost 27 Boyz. I had a second mob of 25 Boyz following, but rolled a 4 for morale after a command point re-roll. The last 2 nobz mobbed up with the follow up mob, we retreated and licked our wounds. I was trying to outflank and hit his weakest flank as hard and fast as possible. I figured I'd lose maybe 15 Boyz, possibly some more, but still have enough to charge home and consolidate through his right flank, but the buffs really hit hard. He was also re-rolling hits in there too, it was pretty grim.
The problem with this list is that once the ranged shooting is gone, I'm left with pretty slow, large mobs that are hard to effectively hide and die fast. I've won games, but there's more luck involved than I'd like. Every deployment has to be fully considered, every movement planned, measured and double checked, if you slip up you're toast and there just not the flexibility to get back in the game sometimes. Playing orks at the moment is definitely playing on hard mode. I envy our opponents ability to just shuffle a bit to get LOS and then open up and inflict devastating volleys. Combat seems double hard to achieve at the moment. I've played games using storm Boyz and kommandos to help outflank and saturate with threats, but the killyness of the gun lines just stops most assaults dead.
There is so much more involved in playing an assault based army with medium levels of fire support, it also doesn't help that we're index only and everyone I'm up against has a codex, and so many strategems that help them. Unfortunately I'm committed to the campaign, but at this rate, there won't be any orks left before the codex drops.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. "When the codex drops." Really, you are playing an index army against 2 codex armies. It's a miracle that you are winning any battles at all. It's not a question of better units or strategy, it's a question of sheer codex power. See if you're opponents will play a game without using any of the strategems, army abilities, or psychic powers that are not in their codex and see how you do.
That said, you are going to have to minimize casualties as much as possible. Keep the boyz in big blobs and blobs close together for no moral loss, painboy for 6+++ and Big Mek for 5++. Every twelve wounds will be reduced to 7 losses on average.
Elite1: 10 Nobz (170), 10x Shoota (0, 1 on Boss Nob), 10x Ammo Runt (40, 1 on Boss Nob), 5x Power Klaw (65), 3x Power Stabba (9), 2x Choppa (0), Boss Nob (0), Killsaw (Boss Nob, 15) - [286pts]
Elite2: Pain Boy (40), Power Klaw (13), Grot Orderly (4) - [57pts]
FA1: 5x Storm Boyz (40), 5x Slugga & Choppa (0, 1 on Boss Nob), Boss Nob (0) – [40pts]
FA2: 5x Storm Boyz (40), 5x Slugga & Choppa (0, 1 on Boss Nob), Boss Nob (0) – [40pts]
FA3: 5x Storm Boyz (40), 5x Slugga & Choppa (0, 1 on Boss Nob), Boss Nob (0) – [40pts]
Flyer1 Dakkajet (88), 6x Supa Shoota (60) - [148pts]
I did all the math on nobz and they are inferior in most ways to Boyz except for force concentration. Leadership also seems like a huge potential weakness, but at least you can pull shenanigans with the runts. I think they could be more effective in a trukk or in a BW compared to Boiz. But even then the runts are not exempt from the carrying capacity.
TedNugent wrote: I did all the math on nobz and they are inferior in most ways to Boyz except for force concentration. Leadership also seems like a huge potential weakness, but at least you can pull shenanigans with the runts. I think they could be more effective in a trukk or in a BW compared to Boiz. But even then the runts are not exempt from the carrying capacity.
Yup, Why take a nob squad when its worse then a boyz squad AND a boyz squad can get a FREE Nob.
Those Nobs have done work for me before, I know it's not optimal but I find people don't focus them until it's too late. They will smash through t8 better than anything else I have, and with runts and 4+ save are surprising durable.
If I were to replace them id probably get more dakka jets rather than boyz
TedNugent wrote: I did all the math on nobz and they are inferior in most ways to Boyz except for force concentration. Leadership also seems like a huge potential weakness, but at least you can pull shenanigans with the runts. I think they could be more effective in a trukk or in a BW compared to Boiz. But even then the runts are not exempt from the carrying capacity.
They also prevent moral casualties on a 6+. Not reliable, but if you manage to save 5 boyz over the course of a game, at least you have payed the same amount of points per wounds. It's also very amusing when an opponent tries to wipe a unit with moral - every model that succeeds its 6+ will remain on the battlefield, even if the moral check was -29.
mrtomski wrote: Those Nobs have done work for me before, I know it's not optimal but I find people don't focus them until it's too late. They will smash through t8 better than anything else I have, and with runts and 4+ save are surprising durable.
If I were to replace them id probably get more dakka jets rather than boyz
They're not bad at all. Godspeed. I just don't know that they're as good as boyz rn.
They also prevent moral casualties on a 6+. Not reliable, but if you manage to save 5 boyz over the course of a game, at least you have payed the same amount of points per wounds. It's also very amusing when an opponent tries to wipe a unit with moral - every model that succeeds its 6+ will remain on the battlefield, even if the moral check was -29.
If they get into combat with t7 or t8 they make their points back quickly. That's what I have them for. Also they don't start to loose punching power until 10 runts and 4 nobs are dead. Take 18 wounds put of a boy squad and it's not going to be that effective any more, especially against high T targets where you need the weight of dice.
That's my theory and what I have experienced when fielding them, admittedly only in a couple of games. I love the models too ;-)
I'll post about how the list performs after the tornemant, there is some absolute filth being fielded so I'm just hoping not not be tabled and put in a good showing for my fellow ork players.
1500 pts, no duplicate detachments, tournament coming up on sunday. No painting requirement luckily seeing I'm still in mad rush to paint all the stuff...
So 3 big blobs of boyz, 2 small ones as front screen/mob up material. 3 KMK and dakkajet for some shooting support. 10 grots for backfield chaff/front chaff depending on how much rear field deep strike I have to worry about.
I'm wondering if anyone have a good advice against agressors? My friend uses them as an counter unit when I'm closing in on him. One unit pushes out about 120 shots. He's hard to shoot down as well as he plays them as raven guard. And he screens them with other units as well.
They also prevent moral casualties on a 6+. Not reliable, but if you manage to save 5 boyz over the course of a game, at least you have payed the same amount of points per wounds. It's also very amusing when an opponent tries to wipe a unit with moral - every model that succeeds its 6+ will remain on the battlefield, even if the moral check was -29.
If they get into combat with t7 or t8 they make their points back quickly. That's what I have them for. Also they don't start to loose punching power until 10 runts and 4 nobs are dead. Take 18 wounds put of a boy squad and it's not going to be that effective any more, especially against high T targets where you need the weight of dice.
That's my theory and what I have experienced when fielding them, admittedly only in a couple of games. I love the models too ;-)
I'll post about how the list performs after the tornemant, there is some absolute filth being fielded so I'm just hoping not not be tabled and put in a good showing for my fellow ork players.
They are worse vs T7 vehicles then a boy point for point, because S5 vs S4 doesn't matter on anything toughness 6-7, nobz are only better on T8 and T9. If you are taking 10 runtz and 10 nobz you have SUNK a lot of points into a single unit that will by necessity require a transport in order to not die turn 1. So add another 180pts for a battlewagon. Really quick it turns into a super elite, rather crappy unit. I am in no way saying don't take nobz if you like them. But the results are already in, Nobz are worse then Boyz.
Hi guys! I am very interested to start playing with ork. Although I tried to get the big picture which model are safe to pick that I should purchase to make a competitive army, I would still like to hear your opinion/suggestion. Currently my buying list:
Spoiler:
1 x Warboss
1 x Big Mek
2 x Mek gunz
1 x Weirdboy
90x boyz
Any other suggestions? I was wondering if stormboyz and painboy are any good and should I get 1 more Weirdboy?
Mikastan wrote: Hi guys! I am very interested to start playing with ork. Although I tried to get the big picture which model are safe to pick that I should purchase to make a competitive army, I would still like to hear your opinion/suggestion. Currently my buying list:
Spoiler:
1 x Warboss
1 x Big Mek
2 x Mek gunz
1 x Weirdboy
90x boyz
Any other suggestions? I was wondering if stormboyz and painboy are any good and should I get 1 more Weirdboy?
This is a solid start. Painboyz and stormboyz are both a key part of our only real competitive build right now, everything else is already on your buying list. Stormboyz are expensive to buy at $25 for 5 of them, so I'd recommend getting into modeling and converting to make some regular boyz into stormboyz if you want big mobs. I'm currently planning to make a mob of 30 with two boxes of boyz and two boxes of stormboyz, using left over rokkits and other bits to give the regular boyz rokkit packs. Another conversion option I'd suggest is buying a trukk, and cannibalizing it for parts to combine with the left over guns from your mek gun kits. With a little ingenuity, you can turn those left over guns from the mek gunz kits into separate guns. For the price of one trukk, you can get another 3-6 mek guns out of those kits. There are a lot of great blogs and tutorials here on dakkadakka that can help you get your foot in the door when it comes to converting, and I'd really suggest it as an ork player. Our faction is definitely the most convertible. The orky aesthetic makes it really easy to just glue junk together and still have it look like it belongs in an orky arsenal.
Mikastan wrote: Hi guys! I am very interested to start playing with ork. Although I tried to get the big picture which model are safe to pick that I should purchase to make a competitive army, I would still like to hear your opinion/suggestion. Currently my buying list:
Spoiler:
1 x Warboss
1 x Big Mek
2 x Mek gunz
1 x Weirdboy
90x boyz
Any other suggestions? I was wondering if stormboyz and painboy are any good and should I get 1 more Weirdboy?
At least another 30 boyw and another weirdboy would be good. Stormboys also good though expensive if you don#t convert. However codex is coming soonish likely with no idea what gets buffed and what gets nerfed so proceed with caution in regards of expensive purchaces. For example if you plan using official modeis for stormboyz 90 would be ill-advised. While great in index no quarantees they won't be trash in codex. Thus i would suggest buy only minimums you need for now untill codex drops.
Played against new tau using greentide. Fielded around 120 boyz, ghaz, bikerboss, painboy, 2 wierdboyz, 3 kmk and a burna bomber. Tau fielded 2 commanders, riptide, forgeworld riptide with a nasty flamer, a rocket pod broadside, min troops and a hellton of drones. In the end orks only had a painboy and a couple grots left, tau had a broadside, a riptide with 2 wounds and an almost intact fw riptide cause pk refused to hit. Out of 14 pk attacks hitting on 4+, i hit... 0. Orks were leading the scoring game but were facing a wipeoput turn 7. So, essentially the game was gona be decided by the 4+ roll, so we decided to call it a draw.
Anywayz, bere are some thoughts.
- Burna bombers are passable. Sometimes they're doing good, sometimes there are o targets but tbey're quite helpful. Especially late game when you only have grot gunners left and need to survive 2 turns. Since grots are characters, you can try to force some shots on the exploding bomber.
- We really need those stormboyz. 2d turn charge and fly are a huge deal over 3d turn charge from regular boyz.
- Having no codex hurts badly. Also, we have hard time dealing with riptides + shield drones.
You guys know as well as I do that the codex is going to be the same copy paste job as the last one, with a handful of baffling points and rules changes, with the majority of the index intact. I'll bet at least 4 of the relics will be completely useless, including a useless shooting weapon.
7-th ork updates were awful and yet there were still 2 amazing gems in there - greentide formation and bully boyz formation. We, orks, are speshulists at finding gems in piles of garbage.
TedNugent wrote: You guys know as well as I do that the codex is going to be the same copy paste job as the last one, with a handful of baffling points and rules changes, with the majority of the index intact. I'll bet at least 4 of the relics will be completely useless, including a useless shooting weapon.
4 worthless relics would put us on par with IG and not that bad spot really. Since relics are all same price regardless of effects you don't need tons of good ones since you will see same 3-4 max anyway. Nobody fields more relics than that in army list anyway. Too much CP eat and not many armies would even have more than that worth taking.
Dude the new death watch ork strategem is absolutely brutal on orks.
“Stem the green tide” 2cp
Use this strategem immediately before you fire overwatch with a death watch unit from your army against a charging ork unit. Your opponent must subtract 1 from thier charge distance for each model in the charging unit that was slain by your units overwatch Fire.
This with thier reroll to hit abilities is going to make it extremely hard to charge death watch ubits with your 30+ model blob.
I don't see that DW stratagem as that bad, once we get our codex and things like trucks and koptas are fairly priced. It's only 1 charge per turn and takes 2cp, and they have to declare it before overwatch.
Seems tough, but fluffy and fair.
If the Tau got it, now that would suck donkey balls.
Realistically, what are you going to lose 2-3 models? So it delays your charge by a turn in exchange for 2 CPs. Pretty clutch to be sure but that's only one army.
Realistically, what are you going to lose 2-3 models? So it delays your charge by a turn in exchange for 2 CPs. Pretty clutch to be sure but that's only one army.
Probably less that that.
Charge with a battle wagon or a trukk, or a Deff Kopta from behind LOS blocking terrain. (If there is an opportunity.)
gungo wrote: Dude the new death watch ork strategem is absolutely brutal on orks.
“Stem the green tide” 2cp
Use this strategem immediately before you fire overwatch with a death watch unit from your army against a charging ork unit. Your opponent must subtract 1 from thier charge distance for each model in the charging unit that was slain by your units overwatch Fire.
This with thier reroll to hit abilities is going to make it extremely hard to charge death watch ubits with your 30+ model blob.
its a stratagem, they get to do it once per turn, if you are only charging with one unit you're doing it wrong, if they have a "must hit that unit" charge chaff into it first, they can burn the stratagem on that or risk being locked in combat and unable to use it.
TedNugent wrote: Chaff as in gretchin or a disposable boyz squad?
Probably but I wouldn't do that if I had the choice.
Just be mindful, inflict casualties on the unit you wish to charge st up several unit to make the charge and charge with something they can't really kill very easily first. then throw the boys in.
My friend plays deathwatch and I can tell this will in fact be pretty brutal for me. You are assuming deathwatch puts out an overwatch similar to other armies when they really don't; deathwatch has access to frag cannons which are one of the best upgrades in the index, no idea how theyve been changed in the codex though. 2d6 auto hits at str 5 ap -1 at 8", plus another anti-tank profile. My buddy takes two in each killteam. That works out to 9 or 10 dead orks without even counting all the other weapons in the squad. So, basically with frag cannons he can just turn off one charge per turn. Not insurmountable, sure, but when overwatch already ate half the unit before it got in, not getting in at all really hurts.
I run with a dreadmob-style list, so hopefully i'll make it up the field with enough stompy stuff to soak overwatch for a boyz mob coming in after it. But it's not like deff dreads and kans are really good to begin with.
koooaei wrote: They still have bolters and stuff. So, if you stay at 8.1 mark, they can kill a couple boyz and you'll be in trouble still.
Maybe. Maybe not. Those squads are expensive and likely will be small as a result. Remember we aren't talking horde army or even semi-horde like regular marines can be but elite army with expensive T4 3+ save guys(and as such by definition almost certainly be on the weak side of armies. They NEED bloody impressive abilities for their squads to be worth it). Handful of bolters won't likely be hitting enough on 6's to kill reliably many. One dead won't be different thus from 8.1 to charge after da jump so 50-50. And that's for one squad protection. Will be hurting more in small games as GW went for super unscalable strategem system but in 2k when you get to charge you should have more than 1 charge coming up.
Having something to send in first that a) either can survive without casualties or b) is something you would be thrilled at enemy using strategem might be nice. Either some tough model unlikely to die. Too bad ATM all our vehicles are crappy. For b howabout small grot squads? Enemy shoots couple from overwatch(say from that frag cannon) so what? If he uses strategem he spent 2 CP stopping GROTS from charging(lol). If not he just lost his unit from overwatching(lol).
Maybe put in some grot squads in congo lines between your units to do these charges before boyz charge in?
Does anyone else seem to just struggle with the Death Guard matchup? Orks already have a hard time punching into armor, and there are just so many damn invulns and DR rolls made.
Really starting to feel unimpressed with power klaws on nobs, hitting on 4+ w/ 3 attacks resulted in very few damage getting through.
Tankbustas are fine into most vehicles, but against demon princes and slug tanks with high armor, high wounds, and a DR roll on top of that...ugh.
What are people usually taking for high armor matchups other than mek gun spam?
If you have plenty of klaws that nob banner might help as it cuts down on your misses by 33%. That might help a bit. with some congo lining should get all or at least most units within range.
ajax_xaja wrote: Does anyone else seem to just struggle with the Death Guard matchup? Orks already have a hard time punching into armor, and there are just so many damn invulns and DR rolls made.
Really starting to feel unimpressed with power klaws on nobs, hitting on 4+ w/ 3 attacks resulted in very few damage getting through.
Tankbustas are fine into most vehicles, but against demon princes and slug tanks with high armor, high wounds, and a DR roll on top of that...ugh.
What are people usually taking for high armor matchups other than mek gun spam?
I've played once against deDG and they wiped me out of the table... The only Thing that worked for me was an exploding Gorkanaut... so...
Tomorrow I´ve got a game against Necrons and I am going to try out this list:
HQ Big Mek on Warbike KFF + Headwoppa's
Zhadsnark Da Ripper
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Troops
30x boyz (Nob w. PK)
30x boyz (Nob w. PK)
10x gretching
Elite
5x Kommandos
Fast
6x Stormboyz (Nob w. Big choppa)
6x Stormboyz (Nob w. Big choppa)
6x Stormboyz (Nob w. Big choppa)
Heavy
2x Mek Gunz KMK
Flyer
1xBurna bomber
I don´t know If I should Change the Kommandos for an extra Mek gun (+ the CP I would get)...
koooaei wrote: 7-th ork updates were awful and yet there were still 2 amazing gems in there - greentide formation and bully boyz formation. We, orks, are speshulists at finding gems in piles of garbage.
I wouldn't call "drop 250€ on MANz or feth off" a "gem" and green tide was actually removed from updated supplement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, the easy way out of that stratagem is bringing transports or buggies along (or, if the codex wills it, koptas).
They are not affected by the stratagem since they single model units, and once locked in combat the death watch can't overwatch anymore.
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the corvus blackstar getting a point drop since it's a flyer with twin assault cannons and hurricane bolter that hits boyz on 2+.
koooaei wrote: 7-th ork updates were awful and yet there were still 2 amazing gems in there - greentide formation and bully boyz formation. We, orks, are speshulists at finding gems in piles of garbage.
I wouldn't call "drop 250€ on MANz or feth off" a "gem" and green tide was actually removed from updated supplement.
But not removed from game as per official word from GW.
And as for 250€...Well yeah that hurts but GW models cost anyway and alternatives are available.
So gwfaq saying greentide ok doesn't count as official? Interesting definition you have what counts as official. Now if tounrnament house ruled differenjdtly one thing. Those can house rule meganobz as 5pt model. But officially that formation had bigger claim for officialdom than da jump t1. At least formation came 1st hand from dev's rather than 2nd hand in source most players are unlikely to even spot(without this forum, wh#chbtw is followed by minority of players), i would never have seen it for example)
they re-released the "Waaagh! Ghazghkull" supplement, and took out the green tide formation...seeing as that was now the current official version of that supplement, green tide formation was gone. simple. and yes, it sucked :(
tneva82 wrote: So gwfaq saying greentide ok doesn't count as official? Interesting definition you have what counts as official. Now if tounrnament house ruled differenjdtly one thing. Those can house rule meganobz as 5pt model. But officially that formation had bigger claim for officialdom than da jump t1. At least formation came 1st hand from dev's rather than 2nd hand in source most players are unlikely to even spot(without this forum, wh#chbtw is followed by minority of players), i would never have seen it for example)
You might want to check your facts before acting all high and mighty. There was no FAQ but a response on facebook which told you to use whatever books you feel like.
koooaei wrote: 7-th ork updates were awful and yet there were still 2 amazing gems in there - greentide formation and bully boyz formation. We, orks, are speshulists at finding gems in piles of garbage.
I wouldn't call "drop 250€ on MANz or feth off" a "gem" and green tide was actually removed from updated supplement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, the easy way out of that stratagem is bringing transports or buggies along (or, if the codex wills it, koptas).
They are not affected by the stratagem since they single model units, and once locked in combat the death watch can't overwatch anymore.
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the corvus blackstar getting a point drop since it's a flyer with twin assault cannons and hurricane bolter that hits boyz on 2+.
Well, it cost me around 85$ for 15. Noone was playing orks anywayz, so there were lots of options.
