Jump pack is what tells you how much space they take up in transports.
My current favorite Tankbusta unit is this one:
6 Orks - 5 TBs and a Boss Nob, 6 Rokkits, and 4 Bomb Squigs in a Trukk (227).
Those Squig bombs are solid gold. 4 dice hitting on 2+ going S8 -2 d6? Yes please. You hammer them off turn one or two to put a serious hurt on something. Tankbustas aren't going to survive targeted fire anyway, in a Trukk or not, so maximizing their damage potential for the first turn or two seems like the best way to spend those points.
40 points of Bomb Squigs will drop about 10 wounds onto a Predator level target. That's pretty keen.
Holy fek something cool I noticed in the rules.
Ok boss zagstruk has cyborg body it says he doesn't lose a wound on a 5 or 6 AND this doesn't stack w Dok tools...
Mad doc has Super cybork body that's says the same thing BUT doesn't restrict it from stacking w doc tools. Doc tools also doesn't restrict it from stacking w cybork body..
Sooooo everytime mad doc loses a wound you roll 2 dice... one prevents the wound on a 5+ the other prevents it on a 6+
In addition at the end of your movement phase he can heal HIMSELF....by rolling a d6 and anything but a 1 he regains d3 wounds.
gungo wrote: Holy fek something cool I noticed in the rules.
Ok boss zagstruk has cyborg body it says he doesn't lose a wound on a 5 or 6 AND this doesn't stack w Dok tools...
Mad doc has Super cybork body that's says the same thing BUT doesn't restrict it from stacking w doc tools. Doc tools also doesn't restrict it from stacking w cybork body..
Sooooo everytime mad doc loses a wound you roll 2 dice... one prevents the wound on a 5+ the other prevents it on a 6+
In addition at the end of your movement phase he can heal HIMSELF....by rolling a d6 and anything but a 1 he regains d3 wounds.
He is a super durable character.....
Huh, impressive. However hes a Deathskull (for some reason,afaik his Clan has never been stated) so he can't buff Ghazzy, which i find strange.
Fenris-77 wrote: Jump pack is what tells you how much space they take up in transports.
My current favorite Tankbusta unit is this one:
6 Orks - 5 TBs and a Boss Nob, 6 Rokkits, and 4 Bomb Squigs in a Trukk (227).
Those Squig bombs are solid gold. 4 dice hitting on 2+ going S8 -2 d6? Yes please. You hammer them off turn one or two to put a serious hurt on something. Tankbustas aren't going to survive targeted fire anyway, in a Trukk or not, so maximizing their damage potential for the first turn or two seems like the best way to spend those points.
40 points of Bomb Squigs will drop about 10 wounds onto a Predator level target. That's pretty keen.
I wish and agree on bomb squigs (they also get the reroll to hit) but you can only take 2 squigs for every 5 bustas. You need 10 bustas for 4 squigs.
gungo wrote: Holy fek something cool I noticed in the rules.
Ok boss zagstruk has cyborg body it says he doesn't lose a wound on a 5 or 6 AND this doesn't stack w Dok tools...
Mad doc has Super cybork body that's says the same thing BUT doesn't restrict it from stacking w doc tools. Doc tools also doesn't restrict it from stacking w cybork body..
Sooooo everytime mad doc loses a wound you roll 2 dice... one prevents the wound on a 5+ the other prevents it on a 6+
In addition at the end of your movement phase he can heal HIMSELF....by rolling a d6 and anything but a 1 he regains d3 wounds.
He is a super durable character.....
Huh, impressive. However hes a Deathskull (for some reason,afaik his Clan has never been stated) so he can't buff Ghazzy, which i find strange.
Actually he's the only painboy who can heal any clan
The other painboys doc tools say <clan> infantry or biker
Maddoc doc tools say any Ork infantry or biker
He however won't receive any buffs from other character abilities that don't specifically allow his clan. Which is only really the waagh banner that matters for him everything else is ork infantry or morale.
I actually agree with you that that your interpretation is what they probably meant. I looked at it a couple of times and really got hung up reading the 'or' rather than the pluralization of 'Nobz'. If the 'or' is the key then yeah, it works like I said it does (5 TBs. Check. One Nob. Check. = 4 BS). However, the more I think about the pluralization of Nob the more I think a serious grammatical deconstruction would support your reading. Plural + plural = total group. Especially when there's no option to literally include more than one Boos Nob in the unit anyway.
I am reading some people taking squads with strange numbers 6 orks, 12 orks etc
Does it say somewhere that the squad sizes arnt fixed?
I know you can take an understrength squad (but still have to pay the same points as the full strength squad) but when it says 5 boys + 5 boys for X or + 10 boys for 2X. that means a squad is either 5,10 or 15 boys strong, no 8, no 12?
gungo wrote: Holy fek something cool I noticed in the rules.
Ok boss zagstruk has cyborg body it says he doesn't lose a wound on a 5 or 6 AND this doesn't stack w Dok tools...
Mad doc has Super cybork body that's says the same thing BUT doesn't restrict it from stacking w doc tools. Doc tools also doesn't restrict it from stacking w cybork body..
Sooooo everytime mad doc loses a wound you roll 2 dice... one prevents the wound on a 5+ the other prevents it on a 6+
In addition at the end of your movement phase he can heal HIMSELF....by rolling a d6 and anything but a 1 he regains d3 wounds.
He is a super durable character.....
Huh, impressive. However hes a Deathskull (for some reason,afaik his Clan has never been stated) so he can't buff Ghazzy, which i find strange.
In (one of the ork codex) blurbs about Ghazzys origin story they do mention that it was a death skullz painboy named grotsnik who saved him. Also makes sense, since he's Looting all those body parts on the battlefield.
The new way to make an army list is an absolute pain in the arse. It took me like a dozen times to get the points right. Each Mek gun is accompanied by 5 grots that cost 2pts each so each kmk Mek gun is 48 points.
Ahhh crap. I forgot I had to pay for grots for the gunz as well.
Yes, list building in this edition sucks the big one :(
I had a feeling that the Killsaws would be straight up better.
I miscalculated the killiness per point a bit cause i thought the saw is 27 and not 28.But it doesn't change the picture that much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anywayz, badrukk doesn't seem that bad. I'm actually thinking of taking him. 24 range can be an issue but with his re-rolls and s8 ap-3 and 3 damage overcharged Da Rippa, he's passable for 84 pts. He might be not that much worse vs tanks than tankbustas point-for-point - providing he doesn't move, ofc. But even if he does, badrukk doesn't need a transport. Which makes him cheaper overall.
zamerion wrote: Sorry if it was asked, but, if a unit with heavy weapons is embarked in a battlewagon, do they benefit from the rule of move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty ?
In open tropped rule said that models embarked shoot as the model (vehicle)
It does seem to work that way, and i hope that that is intentional, cuz the Battlewagon would feel a bit expensive otherwise.
Heres a 2k list i cobbled together, its comprised mostly of Kommandoes and Stormboyz, and its whole point is mobility to the extreme.
Spoiler:
Outrider Detachment HQ Boss Zagstrukk-88
Fast Attack 30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
Heavy Support 3 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 114
2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
Total:1974
The Big Mek hangs with the KMKs that can be spread out wherever (plus Mek Guns can actually benefit from cover so you only really need to protect ones that are most likely to be in danger). The Stormboyz blitz up the field (like they should) and the Buggies can outflank or just run up the normal flank and snipe Vehicles that the KMKs can't get. The Kommandoes are for Objective nabbing and being the hammer to the Stormboyz other hammer (Orks don't do anvils )
This list has a fair few models (over 100) and it hits fairly hard. Its main issue is, is that it has to get in melee to crush hordes, which really isn't an issue.
I hacked together a very similar list a couple nights ago, the bulk of which is Kommandos and Stormboyz. I felt I needed a bit more heavy damage so went with some nob bikers too. Lemme know how your games go.
zamerion wrote: Sorry if it was asked, but, if a unit with heavy weapons is embarked in a battlewagon, do they benefit from the rule of move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty ?
In open tropped rule said that models embarked shoot as the model (vehicle)
It does seem to work that way, and i hope that that is intentional, cuz the Battlewagon would feel a bit expensive otherwise.
Heres a 2k list i cobbled together, its comprised mostly of Kommandoes and Stormboyz, and its whole point is mobility to the extreme.
Outrider Detachment HQ Boss Zagstrukk-88
Fast Attack 30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
Heavy Support 3 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 114
2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
Total:1974
The Big Mek hangs with the KMKs that can be spread out wherever (plus Mek Guns can actually benefit from cover so you only really need to protect ones that are most likely to be in danger). The Stormboyz blitz up the field (like they should) and the Buggies can outflank or just run up the normal flank and snipe Vehicles that the KMKs can't get. The Kommandoes are for Objective nabbing and being the hammer to the Stormboyz other hammer (Orks don't do anvils )
This list has a fair few models (over 100) and it hits fairly hard. Its main issue is, is that it has to get in melee to crush hordes, which really isn't an issue.
Also, the warbuggies look fast plus can reserve/Outrider - however, I'm concerned they might be expensive for what they do; I'm looking at a 6 man unit of Tankbustas+Trukk, and it comes out to a little less than the price of a 3 man Warbuggy+Rack of Rokkits squad. You get the same number of shots, but have rerolls (and potential bomb squig) and about the same number of wounds (5x3 vs 10+1x6). If the Trukk is destroyed too, the Tankbusta unit can't be shot at by the unit that destroyed the Trukk during the shooting round (as the models weren't on the table when shooting selection began). The Trukk also has Ramshakle, which can very unreliably save it from random strong attacks.
Hard to say if a squad of 3 Warbuggies with Rokkits or a 6 ork Squad of Tankbustas+Trukk is the way to go for 200/216 points.
They have slightly different uses; the Warbuggies are better in combat, but more and less vulnerable to shooting. The Tankbustas are better vs tanks, but aren't as versatile (can't tie something up in combat).
MangoMadness wrote: I am reading some people taking squads with strange numbers 6 orks, 12 orks etc
Does it say somewhere that the squad sizes arnt fixed?
I know you can take an understrength squad (but still have to pay the same points as the full strength squad) but when it says 5 boys + 5 boys for X or + 10 boys for 2X. that means a squad is either 5,10 or 15 boys strong, no 8, no 12?
It's just a bummer that the model I've used since 5th is no longer a viable model to field. :-/
I wouldnt change your model, you will be 10x more pissed if the codex comes out and the PK is added as an option
Understrength squads (the ability to take less then 10 or 15, etc) only matters for power points. When you purchase a squad for matched play it specifically allows you to buy models UP TO the max amount individually. There is definitely a minimum unit model count and a maximum. However unless the unit entry specifically says you can only take 5 or 10 or something similiar UP TO allows you to take any amount in between.
The main reason you see amounts of 6 and 12 is because our trukk transport holds 12 models.
I agree don't change the model ffs the official waagh banner literally has a power fist cybork arm. I'm just glad gw didn't force us to take a powerklaw like they did w the painboy. Also the urty syringe should be a mortal wound since there is almost no point to use it over the str10 ap-3 d3 klaw.
Understrength squads (the ability to take less then 10 or 15, etc) only matters for power points. When you purchase a squad for matched play it specifically allows you to buy models UP TO the max amount individually. There is definitely a minimum unit model count and a maximum. However unless the unit entry specifically says you can only take 5 or 10 or something similiar UP TO allows you to take any amount in betwee.
Could you tell me where that is shown? I looked in the rules and it isnt mentioned in the matched play section, is it detailed at the start of the codex books? (the first 11 pages are missing in the uploads so it could easily be in there)
One more rules question.
Do you think I can decide not to take the default weapon of a model? I am thinking about running a painboy, but do not need the power klaw, just the healing. I dont't really see him fighting that much...
You must take whatever weapons are listed in the unit entry, but you can swap them out if it says you can swap them out (say, Painboy Power Klaw upgrading to a Killsaw) - if the base model has something different that's not listed in the unit entry, that's a separate issue; you either fix them up if it's an egregious difference, or just roll with it.
Depends who you're playing with and where at; casual play it's not an issue too much if it's one or two models that aren't perfect, but tournaments are usually pretty strict on it.
If painbosses didn't require a klaw/saw they'd be great. On the other hand, i have an old metal small painboy with a saw. So, i guess it's time to run one!
koooaei wrote: If painbosses didn't require a klaw/saw they'd be great. On the other hand, i have an old metal small painboy with a saw. So, i guess it's time to run one!
Same i got one old in metal and one in finecast.
But what a pain in the ass to have to pay for the PK, who gives a feth, we don't play the painboy because we want him to do damage. Bad move gw, bad move.
What's our most effective means of dealing with fliers do you all reckon? Shooting at it with a load of stuff, using our own fliers to shoot/ assault it, use trakktor cannons or simply wait till they charge us?
Jangus wrote: What's our most effective means of dealing with fliers do you all reckon? Shooting at it with a load of stuff, using our own fliers to shoot/ assault it, use trakktor cannons or simply wait till they charge us?
How do you see the new KMKs? Being heavy D6 means they have an average of 3 hits every turn, which is better than before, for 48 points each (if I did the calculations right). No more possibility to hurt our own units. Even if the new gets hot rule brings an average of 1 wound suffered everytime a KMK fires with 6W this piece of artilley looks pretty intimidating, and a cheap mek or even a big mek positioned near the battery can restore lost wounds. I'm not sure if they can take ammo runts though, the profile don't show this possibility but I guess it doesn't really matter now.
The KFF seems another interesting item now, especially on a biker mek that gives an invuln to multiple vehicles. For that purpose are bikes still better than buggies to ride with the bik mek? I think so, but I really like the new buggies and finally they're going back to the battlefields.
The nob upgrade in now free right? I mean in units of boyz, tankbustas, bikes... also the 'ard case seems a free update and now that every vehicle allows the assault it looks like mandatory for those transports that carry melee units like meganobz, nobz or slugga/choppa boyz.
Probably stormboyz. They can assault it and fliers have enormous bases and are easier to catch cause they can't controle their movement as well as other stuff.
Stormboys for sure! I can't wait to try that too.
Not sold on the KMK yet. Heavy D6, then roll to hit. So. Can that be averaged? (I'm not a math guy. I'm a weight of number, Down some Jagermeister and swing for the fences kinda guy.)
Do we have anything close to a consensus about which Mek guns are reliable yet? One thing about power Levels I've noticed, I could be way off here but it seems to me, Some units are begging to be fielded in certain costs. 5 Lootas is 8. 15 Lootas is 16. Split fire is a thing. So why would I take Lootas in anything less than their full unit size. They should draw more fire to wipe them out and have the LD15 going for them So they son't seem any more vulnerable than 3 mobs of 5. Maybe better.as they would be 8 PL cheaper.
Hello chaps, wondering what you think about this for a long range backline unit. I'm sorta kinda feeling like it's more effective in 8th than it was in 7th, where i used it a number of times, btu obviously noticed you're all up on the KMKs back there (I need way more Grots...).
Basically, 3 Lobbas and 1 or 2 SAGs. Really just because I've always loved the SAG and occasionally it will hit very hard indeed.
Firstly, I was surprised the Lobba was D6 shots, I expected D3 since the max a small blast would ever get was 3 models. So in the past, with barrage and often full scatter, I'd be lucky to land even a few hits on a hidden unit with the 3 of them. Now I'm getting 3D6 shots hitting on 4+ (really feel like it should be at least -1 for non LOS).
Add in the SAGS. I know they feel a lot worse now but they're still -5 AP with an average S of 7. Plus, they no longer go badly wrong, they can fix up damaged Gunz and plus plus, they can't be directly targeted from anywhere if you bubble the Gunz round them. Apart from by snipers, who'll inevitably get Deffkopta'd, Kommando'd or Stormboy'd at the earliest opportunity.
I do see that KMKs with a KFF may well be more efficient but still, looking at considerably less range and being restricted to LOS there so I thought it might be worth a thought.
If we get the Gitfinda back in the codex I'll be delighted...
Also pondering how one Weirdboy slingshotting another could be applied... Must be something in that.... Was thinking about teleporting Ghaz''s buffs about the place but that's seeming like a 3 or 4 turn play, lol.
@ Kooaei - The morale issue with the kans never really came up in my game since I'd either roll good on the morale or CP points to auto pass.
@GrimTeef - Never thought about putting the waagh banner with the Kanz. lol I'm mainly wanted to see how the dread mob would play out in the new edition. Its very promising.
@Sledgio- Sorry the Morkanaut has a KFF. I forgot it in my list. I just always take it. Now the reason for having a second big mek with a KFF is for the Gorkanaut to run around and not have to worry about being in the range of the Morkanaut's KFF. This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF. It also gives some tactical flexibility to the list. You can have some dreads and the Gorkanaut break off from the Morkanaut and Kanz and go fight something else on the table instead of trying to stay in 1 giant group.
warhead01 wrote: Stormboys for sure! I can't wait to try that too.
Not sold on the KMK yet. Heavy D6, then roll to hit. So. Can that be averaged? (I'm not a math guy. I'm a weight of number, Down some Jagermeister and swing for the fences kinda guy.)
Well i would assume the math is simply, D6 hits, at BS4, so you'll average half of what ever number of shots you have. Wounding on 2's for T4, and 3s for T5-7, 4s for T8.
As for a SAG mek with the artillery. Could be good. But I imagine a KFF is better. Means you dont have to sit in cover and will always have a 5++. But if you want a SAG, try a void generator for 4++ for all of them
Blackie wrote: How do you see the new KMKs? Being heavy D6 means they have an average of 3 hits every turn, which is better than before, for 48 points each (if I did the calculations right). No more possibility to hurt our own units. Even if the new gets hot rule brings an average of 1 wound suffered everytime a KMK fires with 6W this piece of artilley looks pretty intimidating, and a cheap mek or even a big mek positioned near the battery can restore lost wounds. I'm not sure if they can take ammo runts though, the profile don't show this possibility but I guess it doesn't really matter now.
The KFF seems another interesting item now, especially on a biker mek that gives an invuln to multiple vehicles. For that purpose are bikes still better than buggies to ride with the bik mek? I think so, but I really like the new buggies and finally they're going back to the battlefields.
The nob upgrade in now free right? I mean in units of boyz, tankbustas, bikes... also the 'ard case seems a free update and now that every vehicle allows the assault it looks like mandatory for those transports that carry melee units like meganobz, nobz or slugga/choppa boyz.
Average of a D6 weapon is 3.5, or 3 or 4 shots a turn. hitting on 4s means 1.5-2 hits on average a turn, not 3. Also, keep in mind that Meganobz went up in price considerably and LOST close combat ability (-1 to hit when using PKs).
KFF seems like crap to me but I haven't had a chance to use it so hopefully this weekend i can bang out a few games with my KFFs. I'm really looking forward to using some Kommandos and Stormboyz and more then that I have a reason to field Ghaz now!
Automatically Appended Next Post: SIDE NOTE!
Notice how GW left out the Grot special rule for our gunners?
+1 to hit when in mobs of 20+ Since you can field 5 grots per gun you could technically get 30 grots in a Mek Gun battery which means they should gain that +1 to hit but they dont :(
warhead01 wrote: Stormboys for sure! I can't wait to try that too.
Not sold on the KMK yet. Heavy D6, then roll to hit. So. Can that be averaged? (I'm not a math guy. I'm a weight of number, Down some Jagermeister and swing for the fences kinda guy.)
Do we have anything close to a consensus about which Mek guns are reliable yet? One thing about power Levels I've noticed, I could be way off here but it seems to me, Some units are begging to be fielded in certain costs. 5 Lootas is 8. 15 Lootas is 16. Split fire is a thing. So why would I take Lootas in anything less than their full unit size. They should draw more fire to wipe them out and have the LD15 going for them So they son't seem any more vulnerable than 3 mobs of 5. Maybe better.as they would be 8 PL cheaper.
My bad, I considered them heavy6, instead of heavy D6
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
Yep i am glad of that, (here come my stompa and gargantuan squiggoth, can't wait anymore to have the fw index)
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
I don't understand how that works. Please explain.
Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
The best non-dedicated anti flyer is stormboyz, however burnas are very effective at damaging flyers. You only measure to the base now and burnas do not care about hard to hit rule. Beyond that tractor Kannon and other flyers are the best antiair. Tankbustas are poor since a 6+ rerollable still sucks and bomb squigs don't work at all.
Lobbas are good they just got more expensive though. Kmks are very good because you can still kill a grot for a gets hot.
Regarding painboys the painboys is a bit expensive and isn't really great when he hits on a 4+. However if you are taking a painboy on foot just take mad doc. He is a 3+ to hit, a slugga (the painboy doesn't even have a range weapon), he gets double chance at fnp for himself, toughness 5 instead of 4, ldr 8 instead of 6, and 4+ instead of 6+ sv, and can heal any ork clan. For 9 more points 65 to 74 (5 w grot). He loses 1 wound cause he can't take a orderly and can't upgrade to kill saw which isn't worth it on a painboy imho.
Average of a D6 weapon is 3.5, or 3 or 4 shots a turn. hitting on 4s means 1.5-2 hits on average a turn, not 3. Also, keep in mind that Meganobz went up in price considerably and LOST close combat ability (-1 to hit when using PKs).
Yeah, I read and wrote heavyD6 and actually act like it was heavy6 Meganobz are pricey and lost 1 attack but now they have S10 and the hit first on the charge, still on a 4+ like before unless you were using the formation. In 7th edition they were obliterated against any dedeicated close combat unit thanks to the possible AP2 and the highest initiative. Now they also got a third wound. The real problem with meganobz is that transport became very expensive and trukks can be death traps for them now. The bullyboyz is certainly gone but a unit of 4 or 5 can be quite effective in this current edition, especially with a banner nob nearby that can buff a couple of choppy units, maybe a mob of boyz and a warboss other than the meganobz. The kombi skorchas and killsaws are gone though, as they are extremely pricey.
gungo wrote: Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.
Cuz05 wrote: If we get the Gitfinda back in the codex I'll be delighted...
Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.
Also pondering how one Weirdboy slingshotting another could be applied... Must be something in that.... Was thinking about teleporting Ghaz''s buffs about the place but that's seeming like a 3 or 4 turn play, lol.
If what your saying is how I'm interpreting it.. this isnt allowed in matched play as you can only attempt to manifest da jamp (and any other pyschic power other then smite) once per turn. Even across multiple psychers.
Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.
I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
I don't understand how that works. Please explain.
I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.
I see it now under the Transports side bar. "Unless specifically stated, abilites that affect other units within a specific range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked." So He could be behind the wagon on foot and the gitz could be emabrked and gain the benfit. But then he probably wouldnt have LOS to shoot and would be minus one to hit as he moved to keep up with the wagon. Its just interesting that if he is embarked it doesnt work.. but if he is not embarked but the gitz ARE then it does. Seems....not thought out to me. oh wells. demz da rules.
Glitcha wrote: You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.
I think the ambiguity is that these are two different measurements. "More than 9" away" would mean that the closest part of the base is >9" away. "Completely within 9"" means that the FURTHEST part of the model <9" away. So there's very nearly an inch difference between these wordings.
Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.
I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.
Unfortunately it seems like this is the case- but it seems like an oversight, as even a mek/big mek's repairing ability isn't allowed while sitting inside a battlewagon or gorknaut etc..
Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.
I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.
Unfortunately it seems like this is the case- but it seems like an oversight, as even a mek/big mek's repairing ability isn't allowed while sitting inside a battlewagon or gorknaut etc..
Maybe so but I think it was intended based on how it's worded. At least it effects every one the same until they change something later. Just gotta get out to fix a flat tire. (Not that that's a thing anymore lol.)
WOW forgot about the big meks and meks having the repair ability. LOL Thats dumb that doesnt work insdie the vehicle. Guess thats the same for the Spanna boys to..what the feth is the point of taking spannas or meks (little meks) then??
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
I don't understand how that works. Please explain.
I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.
Looks pretty silly though, if 29 boyz are under the bubble and a only one isn't means that not a single boy gets the invuln? Ruleswise it appears like that but it doesn't make any sense. I wasn't planning of running KFF that covers footslogging units though, I'm thinking about a biker mek that gives the invuln to trukks and BWs. He can also repairs those vehicles.
gungo wrote: Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.
The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.
Glitcha wrote: This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.
Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.
I don't understand how that works. Please explain.
I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.
Looks pretty silly though, if 29 boyz are under the bubble and a only one isn't means that not a single boy gets the invuln? Ruleswise it appears like that but it doesn't make any sense. I wasn't planning of running KFF that covers footslogging units though, I'm thinking about a biker mek that gives the invuln to trukks and BWs. He can also repairs those vehicles.
This leads me to ask. if 29 boys are in and one isn't and sever wounds that need saving come in. Could we assign one to the boy out side, pass or fail the 6+ save. if we fail now 29 buys, the whole unit are under the KFF. Would we then be able to take the 5++ from the KFF.
Also. It's not really just 9". we're actually talking 18" or more when the KFF holders base is taken into account.
Should look like this. +++++++++o+++++++++ (the "o" is a base. clearly this isn't to scale.)
Cuz05 wrote: If we get the Gitfinda back in the codex I'll be delighted...
Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.
Also pondering how one Weirdboy slingshotting another could be applied... Must be something in that.... Was thinking about teleporting Ghaz''s buffs about the place but that's seeming like a 3 or 4 turn play, lol.
If what your saying is how I'm interpreting it.. this isnt allowed in matched play as you can only attempt to manifest da jamp (and any other pyschic power other then smite) once per turn. Even across multiple psychers.
Not sure ur exact question is asking but badrukk special rule does not work in a transport as no special character confered special rules work in transports. Even though we can say they obviously must be within 6in. Units on transports are considered not in play for special rules. It's in the transport section of the rulebook.
Also, the warbuggies look fast plus can reserve/Outrider - however, I'm concerned they might be expensive for what they do; I'm looking at a 6 man unit of Tankbustas+Trukk, and it comes out to a little less than the price of a 3 man Warbuggy+Rack of Rokkits squad. You get the same number of shots, but have rerolls (and potential bomb squig) and about the same number of wounds (5x3 vs 10+1x6). If the Trukk is destroyed too, the Tankbusta unit can't be shot at by the unit that destroyed the Trukk during the shooting round (as the models weren't on the table when shooting selection began). The Trukk also has Ramshakle, which can very unreliably save it from random strong attacks.
Hard to say if a squad of 3 Warbuggies with Rokkits or a 6 ork Squad of Tankbustas+Trukk is the way to go for 200/216 points.
They have slightly different uses; the Warbuggies are better in combat, but more and less vulnerable to shooting. The Tankbustas are better vs tanks, but aren't as versatile (can't tie something up in combat).
Thoughts?
Id say that the Warbuggies are the more generalist unit, and Tankbustas are better when your fighting a highly Mechanizd army. I honestly just feel the Outflank is the worth the couple of points diference.
koooaei wrote: I'd not call pk dirt cheap. If something, they actually do much less than they used to. And still cost the same.
And that is a kick to the nads. Seriously it should cost 15 or 20 points if only because the thing has a fairly large negative.
Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...
Could this be still a thing?
And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.
I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.
yes, a single model is a unit.
and if that single model clips the KFF bubble, then technically he is inside.
Given that his entire unit is himself, his entire unit is inside.
If models needed to be entirely within, it would say so; it mentions only units therefore clipping the edge is fine and counts.
gungo wrote: Few things A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.
The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.
Yes so if the couple of models on the fringe of the unit are only partially within the bubble then thats ok.. but what the wording prevents is "conga lining" a long line of 30 boys back to the range of the big mek and still getting the 5+ save. Or having one boy of a 30 man blob 9" away giving the entire unit which may in actuality much further away. I would like to see a wording like if at least 50% of the models in the unit are within 9" then they get the save. This is a good compromise.. although could complicate the issue.
Its further disappointing that the KFF is designed in a way its not effective for footsloggers/green tide style of armies. It is difficult for one KFF big mek in range of 2 full units of boys unless he is RIGHT next to both units, like a KFF sandwich. You would need a KFF big mek for each unit almost. which isnt point effective. And then the painboy goes down in base cost, but HAS to pay for the PK which pushes his effective cost to 65 points. 5 points more expensive then last edition AND loses half his effectiveness!! (from 5+ to 6+) Another kick in the nuts to orks by GW.
grnsknz wrote: Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...
Could this be still a thing?
And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.
I'd think it would still be better to fling something more killy up there for that purpose but the small footprint of one model would maybe help. Tho he'd surely die the very next turn.
I was kind of thinking about being able to redeploy something you already have there. Not casting Jump twice in a turn BTW. But, rough eg, you have some Kommandos up there, they kill what you put them there to kill, then you have a weirdboy up there to move em somewhere else, while still having another at the back to move something else, like sending Ghaz up to buff some boyz. I dunno, not managed to figure out any real logistics or purpose to it all. Ofc, the Weirdboy can always move himself around anyway. Not being able to do the same power twice in a turn probably limits this kind of thing. Which is good overall imo.
One thing I did try to use it for in 7th was a late objective grab. Just pop the Weirdboy over there sInce he's not doing anything else now.... scatter was not my friend then...
gungo wrote: Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.
The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.
Yes so if the couple of models on the fringe of the unit are only partially within the bubble then thats ok.. but what the wording prevents is "conga lining" a long line of 30 boys back to the range of the big mek and still getting the 5+ save. Or having one boy of a 30 man blob 9" away giving the entire unit which may in actuality much further away. I would like to see a wording like if at least 50% of the models in the unit are within 9" then they get the save. This is a good compromise.. although could complicate the issue.
Its further disappointing that the KFF is designed in a way its not effective for footsloggers/green tide style of armies. It is difficult for one KFF big mek in range of 2 full units of boys unless he is RIGHT next to both units, like a KFF sandwich. You would need a KFF big mek for each unit almost. which isnt point effective. And then the painboy goes down in base cost, but HAS to pay for the PK which pushes his effective cost to 65 points. 5 points more expensive then last edition AND loses half his effectiveness!! (from 5+ to 6+) Another kick in the nuts to orks by GW.
And I am clear on the transport issue. Although If Baddruck is outside the transport, but the gitz are inside they would still get the bonus. It only limits the unit GIVING the bonus, not the unit RECEIVING the bonus.
Id like
Models within 9 inches reicieve a 5++, models in units within 9 but not withing 9 themselves recieve a 6++
grnsknz wrote: Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...
Could this be still a thing?
And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.
Smite probably won't get enough wounds, but it could ding him one or two. 'eadbanger will almost never get used because you need equal or higher toughness on a d6...only for certain units like Celestine.
KFF is still great at giving your battlewagon with nobz/meganobz or whatnot a 5++ to get up the field. And a 5++ once they get out is a godsend for nobz especially vs overwatch and the like, and they don't have any trouble getting under the bubble.
Taking multiple KFFs for a horde army wouldn't be so bad - they're not cheap but they're not super expensive either. The points savings you get from not having to get Nobz in boyz units alone has freed up so much space in my non-vehicle lists.
grnsknz wrote: Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...
Could this be still a thing?
And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.
Smite probably won't get enough wounds, but it could ding him one or two. 'eadbanger will almost never get used because you need equal or higher toughness on a d6...only for certain units like Celestine.
don't forget the command point re-roll. You need higher, btw.
grnsknz wrote: Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...
Could this be still a thing?
And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.
OR... you just moved up the board and smite the character anyway. They only can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Smite is cast in the psychic phase so all you need to do is get in 18" range and pass your test.
'Eadbanger is really a minor character killer. It can work ok on a Nob w/ Banner, a Sister Imagifier or like a Chaplain or something, but you really need to use CP to make the thing have any reliability and even then, id prefer to just chuck a freakin KMK at it. Orks lack of Sniping is actually gonna kinda suck this ed and it makes us not having Grot snipers even more annoying.
So imagine you take 3 trukks, 3 units of boyz / nobz / Tankbustas and 3 units of Stormboyz that are each 5 boyz + Nob. Deploy the stormboyz in the trukks with the other units right behind them. On turn 1 Stormboyz disembark 3" Move 12" Run d6" <- good place to use a CP reroll, and charge 2D6" For a maximum threat range of 33" on turn 1. More likely you are looking at 27", but that is still enough for a T1 charge to get in and tarpit something shooty for a turn. Maybe tie up a transport, so you guarantee board control.
Theory #2: Flash Gitz and Nobz got a stealth durability upgrade. Ammo Runts. 4 point ablative wounds. Got Hit by a Lascannon? Kill an ammo runt. Battlewagon explodes? Kill an ammo runt.
That right there is fun.
Theory #3: Battlewagons seems like a better transport than Trukks on a point for point basis.
With a transport capacity of 20, and the ability to transport multiple units, make use of that transport capacity. My 1st thought was Flash Gitz plus meganobz. But the more I think about it, Meganobz just don't really bring much to 8th ed except a big price tags. Nobz on the other hand, are cheap enough, and durable enough to really fit in. So Flash Gitz plus Nobz. No still not liking it. Flash Gitz have short range, but Heavy weapons, so you don't want to move (pending the Mobile Fortress rules clarification). Also, all those sweet ablative wounds eat up spots in the wagon. What else. Tankbustas. Assault weapons. Now we stick nobz in there as a counter charge unit. Barely even need to give the upgrades. Just an ammo runt or 2 to eat explosions.
Theory #4 Big Mek on Bike the king of shooting.
The Big Mek can take 2 Kombi-Skorchas. Put him on bike, and he is shooting 6 guns potentially at different targets, repairing a vehicle and charging all in one turn. That right there is nutz. If you want to go hog wild, you can replace a kombi-skorcha with SAG.
Spoiler:
--------------------------------
I ran some numbers
Here is Tankbusta performance with various wargear vs various things.
Spoiler:
And here is a similar chart for Lootas, Burnas, and Flash Gitz.
Spoiler:
Seeing the numbers, I've definitely fallen out of love with the rokkit pistols, TB Bomb is awesome. I think Taking a BC Nob in a unit of TB might be worth it. BS hit hard, but are one shot only. I like them for a better early game punch. Early game offense is more important than late game offense.
On the other units front, Lootas are still good at light armor, while Flash Gitz are better at infantry, but not that much better. It was a surprising result for me. If you do take Flash Gitz, pay for the ammo runts.
gungo wrote: And then the painboy goes down in base cost, but HAS to pay for the PK which pushes his effective cost to 65 points. 5 points more expensive then last edition AND loses half his effectiveness!! (from 5+ to 6+) Another kick in the nuts to orks by GW.
I don't think the Painboy is that bad off - remember that characters aren't in units anymore. The Painboy can be within 3" of two and possibly three mobs and be protecting all of them at the same time. Before he would only be fixin' up one mob that he was in, of a max of 30 boyz and characters attached. Now, he can protect 60+ and characters that are close by.
So having a Painboy in between two 30+ strong units of boys with a 10 strong unit of Nobz just in front of the Painboy (not an impossible setup by any means) means he can use his Dok's Tools on both the boyz mobs and then still use his other Wound regeneration ability on the Nobz Mob if one is missing a Wound.
Having a Waaagh Banner near the Painboy means he can be fixing up the 4 Wounds the Banner bearer has, as well as the Banner buffing everyone in the Fight phase. The Painboy abilities work whether they are in Hand to Hand or not, so he gets quite a lot of use.
BTW I have 5 games under my belt for 8th with orks. My thoughts:
Mek gunz-average now. rolling to hit hurt them a tad but the bubblechukka is now fun to use and insanely strong if you roll well.
Boyz- take multiple 30 man squads, hard to get rid of and pack a punch.
Warbosses- meh. help you advance and charge but they are alright.
Weirdboys- GOLD STAR UNIT. Run up the board in between 2 30 man blobs for bonuses to hit Waagh Energy rule. Yes you will Perils a lot but getting roughly +4,5,or 6 to your test can prevent deny the witch nad give you reliable D6 Mortal Wounds. Shoot at Vehicles and Characters!
Big Meks- Gold STAR UNIT!-screw the KFF, go with Shokk attack gun- they have the ability to inflict Mortal wounds have AP-5 and D6 damage. 2 times in my last game I rolled a 1 for damage and used a CP to reroll into a 6. 1st turn 2 did 9 combined wounds to a landraider and later did 12 wounds to a renegade knight. i was rolling well for their attacks and damage.
Storm boys- May be GOLD STAR UNIT! need another game with them. used in 2 of my games. 12" move and can advance and charge without warboss.
Morkanaut/Gork- not quite gold star but very good. Seem to be a fire magnet and lascannons do work on thewm because it's so much harder to get cover. Still very strong and can put the hurt in shooting and melee.
Fliers- My favorite flier so far has been the Blitza-bomba- fly over and bomb units in the Movement phase- can get up to 10 attacks that inflict mortal wounds on a 4+. Use on large elite armies. I used it on DC and sanguinary guard.
Tank bustas- GOLD STAR UNIT- Being able to now throw a melta bomb is so messed up. MY last game they inflicted around 15 wounds to a knight. The rokkits do 3 damage. meltabombs do D6 at D3 damage. I took 2, 6 man squads and stuck them in a trukk. kited the knight for a few turns before shokk attack finished it off.
Trukks-not bad- haven't rolled any ramshackle saves yet but they have kept my squads decently safe.
I haven't gotten to use much else yet. Have used meganobz...they were underwhelming and used a regular nob squad also the same. Deffkoptas were useful for claiming backfield objectives from reserves.
The one time i used a battlewagon it died in one reserves charge from DC wielding thunderhammers.
OR... you just moved up the board and smite the character anyway. They only can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Smite is cast in the psychic phase so all you need to do is get in 18" range and pass your test.
It still has to be the closest visible unit for smite, so it has the same restriction as shooting.
If the SAG did D6 damage rather than D3 it would indeed be pretty awesome.
I am liking the idea of the Bubblechukka with a CP reroll, must try it out. My Gunz are scratch built so can be pretty much whatever I say they are
OR... you just moved up the board and smite the character anyway. They only can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Smite is cast in the psychic phase so all you need to do is get in 18" range and pass your test.
It still has to be the closest visible unit for smite, so it has the same restriction as shooting.
I disagree
Characters
" Some models are noted as being a CHARACTER on their datasheet. These heroes, officers, prophets, and warlords are powerful individuals that can have a great impact on the course of a battle. The swirling maelstrom of the battlefield can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets, however. A CHARACTER can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to CHARACTERS with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."
doesn't say anything about them not being targetable in the psychic phase
I had considered this as well. What I had come up with was 9 Stormboyz+Zag, a Battlewagon, and 10 Lootaz. If the map and enemy deployment offers a reasonable charge chance, drop the Stormboyz in the wagon right at the edge of the deployment line and the Lootaz into cover. Otherwise put the Lootaz in the wagon and deploy the Stormboyz normally..
Cuz05 wrote: If the SAG did D6 damage rather than D3 it would indeed be pretty awesome.
I am liking the idea of the Bubblechukka with a CP reroll, must try it out. My Gunz are scratch built so can be pretty much whatever I say they are
You're right i turned a die roll of 1 into a 6 for 3 damage.
OR... you just moved up the board and smite the character anyway. They only can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Smite is cast in the psychic phase so all you need to do is get in 18" range and pass your test.
It still has to be the closest visible unit for smite, so it has the same restriction as shooting.
I disagree
Characters
" Some models are noted as being a CHARACTER on their datasheet. These heroes, officers, prophets, and warlords are powerful individuals that can have a great impact on the course of a battle. The swirling maelstrom of the battlefield can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets, however. A CHARACTER can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to CHARACTERS with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."
doesn't say anything about them not being targetable in the psychic phase
It's not a shooting/psychic restriction, closest visible unit is a restriction of Smite itself.
OR... you just moved up the board and smite the character anyway. They only can't be targeted in the shooting phase. Smite is cast in the psychic phase so all you need to do is get in 18" range and pass your test.
It still has to be the closest visible unit for smite, so it has the same restriction as shooting.
I disagree
Characters
" Some models are noted as being a CHARACTER on their datasheet. These heroes, officers, prophets, and warlords are powerful individuals that can have a great impact on the course of a battle. The swirling maelstrom of the battlefield can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets, however. A CHARACTER can only be chosen as a target in the shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting. This does not apply to CHARACTERS with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more, due to their sheer size."
doesn't say anything about them not being targetable in the psychic phase
It's not a shooting/psychic restriction, closest visible unit is a restriction of Smite itself.
mhalko1 wrote: BTW I have 5 games under my belt for 8th with orks. My thoughts:
Mek gunz-average now. rolling to hit hurt them a tad but the bubblechukka is now fun to use and insanely strong if you roll well.
Boyz- take multiple 30 man squads, hard to get rid of and pack a punch.
Warbosses- meh. help you advance and charge but they are alright.
Weirdboys- GOLD STAR UNIT. Run up the board in between 2 30 man blobs for bonuses to hit Waagh Energy rule. Yes you will Perils a lot but getting roughly +4,5,or 6 to your test can prevent deny the witch nad give you reliable D6 Mortal Wounds. Shoot at Vehicles and Characters!
Big Meks- Gold STAR UNIT!-screw the KFF, go with Shokk attack gun- they have the ability to inflict Mortal wounds have AP-5 and D6 damage. 2 times in my last game I rolled a 1 for damage and used a CP to reroll into a 6. 1st turn 2 did 9 combined wounds to a landraider and later did 12 wounds to a renegade knight. i was rolling well for their attacks and damage.
Storm boys- May be GOLD STAR UNIT! need another game with them. used in 2 of my games. 12" move and can advance and charge without warboss.
Morkanaut/Gork- not quite gold star but very good. Seem to be a fire magnet and lascannons do work on thewm because it's so much harder to get cover. Still very strong and can put the hurt in shooting and melee.
Fliers- My favorite flier so far has been the Blitza-bomba- fly over and bomb units in the Movement phase- can get up to 10 attacks that inflict mortal wounds on a 4+. Use on large elite armies. I used it on DC and sanguinary guard.
Tank bustas- GOLD STAR UNIT- Being able to now throw a melta bomb is so messed up. MY last game they inflicted around 15 wounds to a knight. The rokkits do 3 damage. meltabombs do D6 at D3 damage. I took 2, 6 man squads and stuck them in a trukk. kited the knight for a few turns before shokk attack finished it off.
Trukks-not bad- haven't rolled any ramshackle saves yet but they have kept my squads decently safe.
I haven't gotten to use much else yet. Have used meganobz...they were underwhelming and used a regular nob squad also the same. Deffkoptas were useful for claiming backfield objectives from reserves.
The one time i used a battlewagon it died in one reserves charge from DC wielding thunderhammers.
+1 to above recommendations
Question just me testing the bubble chukka Felt like it needed several command points a game to perform well at least 3 for a game. It did several shots at high dam but mid str. Sounds like it will be wounding on a 5+ most times. But yea it can be massive dam when it wounds.
What's ur experience in game
koooaei wrote: I'd not call pk dirt cheap. If something, they actually do much less than they used to. And still cost the same.
I was referring to the pain boy as a whole. It's a good package you get for just 65 points, even if the PK is kind of meh.
Take the killsaw, you won't regret it. My Painboy consistently does more damage to other infantry units on the charge than my trukk mobs do (I have the old metal model with the bonesaw arm, so I felt it was suitably WYSIWYG)
Smite probably won't get enough wounds, but it could ding him one or two. 'eadbanger will almost never get used because you need equal or higher toughness on a d6...only for certain units like Celestine.
Blow up Eldrad Ulthran on a 5+? Hell yeah.
Not implying that it's actually good... but I have to do that at least once.
koooaei wrote: I'd not call pk dirt cheap. If something, they actually do much less than they used to. And still cost the same.
I was referring to the pain boy as a whole. It's a good package you get for just 65 points, even if the PK is kind of meh.
Take the killsaw, you won't regret it. My Painboy consistently does more damage to other infantry units on the charge than my trukk mobs do (I have the old metal model with the bonesaw arm, so I felt it was suitably WYSIWYG)
And it's like the Wreckin' Ball. For 3 points might as well.
Cuz05 wrote: If the SAG did D6 damage rather than D3 it would indeed be pretty awesome.
I am liking the idea of the Bubblechukka with a CP reroll, must try it out. My Gunz are scratch built so can be pretty much whatever I say they are
You're right i turned a die roll of 1 into a 6 for 3 damage.
Cool! You did say D6 damage in your post but if you were doing that kind of damage on D3s, then that's good to hear. I do feel like it'll regain some orky random with the codex but I love the models and the weapon, would like it to still have potential. The fear and anticipation it generates when you start rolling for it on something key....
im thinking grots for a gunline - aka mek/big gunz list, will be very useful for stopping reserves. the enemy have to be 9" away. thus using conga lines its actually possible to make it very very difficult for reserves to deploy. the 9" rule means that you can create a lines thats 17.5 inches away from your gunz and the enemy cant reserve arrive in between. doing this with a couple grotz units meand you can literally deny almost your whole zone.
secondly, sticking a runtherd at the point of the units congas touching, the units are immune to morale. they prevent reserves arriving and basically make it impossible for flanking units to get near anywhere.
finally, im not sure exactly how combat works, but if they charge your line and kill grots, you can remove the grots closest to the combat, if you break the 1" combat, does the unit no longer count as in combat? because if so it would mean the conga line can take charges, be immune to morale and you wont have to fall back, leaving the assaulters open to shooting and even assault from the grots.
Yeah, deepstriking is extremely dangerous this edition. However, grots might not be the best pick unless you want to get a lot of them and a runtherd cause their low ld and toughness means they run away too easilly. In smaller games i'd actually prefer min units of 10 shootaboyz. They've become cheaper, can have a free nob and don't insta die the moment something looks at them. They can also deal with some of the shooty deepstrikers in mellee.
Btw, have you noticed, grots got 6+ armor. However, they're still pretty overpriced for what they do. Runtherds make them decent point holders and even tarpitters. But runtherds ain't cheap and you need lots of grots for them to start paying off in this role.
That's disappointing. I'm a fan of grots and i hope they turn out to be more useful than anti-deepstrike bauble wrap with time. My squad of 10 grots earned the reputation of being "op and you can't counter them". Cause they won more than one game by performing rediculous feats like getting into a trukk, moving across the map and than charging a ravenwing deathstar eating overwatch instead of footslogging meganobz. Or shooting down a flying daemon prince of tzeench with re-rollable saves that failed every single one of them and killed himself falling to the ground. I can't even count the number of times they bravely stood in a way of imperial knights and delayed their advance long enough for the boyz to do the job.
Sledgio wrote: Has anyone got the statistics of nobs with Big Choppas versus Power Stabbas? Wondering what to arm mine with - shock unit coming out of a Morkanaut.
Da Jump on 30 grots....all shooting at BS 3+ as the land. not great, but you can probably get them all within 12" of somebody. For 90 points, it will soak up a lot of shooting, and could put out a lot of hits against infantry.
The Blitza-Bomba and Dakkajet are both looking good. Is the Wazboom Blastajet finally viable? The tellyport blastas seem like they could potentially finish off damaged vehicles/monstrous creatures and the smasha kannon seems usable now.
Sledgio wrote: Has anyone got the statistics of nobs with Big Choppas versus Power Stabbas? Wondering what to arm mine with - shock unit coming out of a Morkanaut.
Power Stabbas work out to be better against single wound T3/4 models, like your standard GEQs or MEQs.
Anything with higher toughness than that, or with multiple wounds per model, Big Choppas win.
Are PK's worth it compared to Big Choppas in normal boyz squads? I think with a WAAAGH! banner buff they'd be more reliable since it would offset the -1 to hit but in the instances where they aren't buffed, would you suggest just going for Big Choppas instead?
Grimskul wrote: Are PK's worth it compared to Big Choppas in normal boyz squads? I think with a WAAAGH! banner buff they'd be more reliable since it would offset the -1 to hit but in the instances where they aren't buffed, would you suggest just going for Big Choppas instead?
I would go BC. They are cheaper and work fine for what you usually need. Save the PKs (and the Banner) for your Nob squads.
Grimskul wrote: Are PK's worth it compared to Big Choppas in normal boyz squads? I think with a WAAAGH! banner buff they'd be more reliable since it would offset the -1 to hit but in the instances where they aren't buffed, would you suggest just going for Big Choppas instead?
It comes down to alot of things, points, enemy, role etc. but as a direct comparison vs T7 3+ vehicles (like rhino/razorback/predator/dread)
PK (3 attacks, str10) does .83 unsaved hits then D3 wounds
BC (3 attacks, Str 7) does .50 unsaved hits then 2 wounds
Choppa (4 attacks, Str 5) does .30 unsaved hits then 1 wound
Against T8 3+ vehicles (like vindicator/hunter/leman russ/baneblades) the BC gets a fair bit worse, no change to the others
PK (3 attacks, str10) does .83 unsaved hits then D3 wounds
BC (3 attacks, Str 7) does .33 unsaved hits then 2 wounds (now wounding on 5+)
Choppa (4 attacks, Str 5) does .30 unsaved hits then 1 wound
Just out of interest this is what 9 boyz with choppers do
Vs T7 3+ does 2 unsaved wounds
Vs T8 3+ does 1 unsaved wound
I think the Viability of PK's depend on how long you expect the model to live to make use of it. Because we can selectively allocate wounds, the PK / BC will always be the last to die in a squad of boyz / Stormboyz/ Kommandos.
I think stormboyz and kommandos are frequently going to die 1st, so I'm leaning big choppa there, but for boyz I'm still leaning PK. For units of Nobz, I think Mixed wargear for the win. YMMV.
I'd go with p.klaw or killsaw on characters like warbosses, big meks, painboyz and the nobz that lead boyz and stormboyz units. Big choppa for units of nobz, maybe for nobz that lead a blob of footslogging boyz, especially shotaboyz. Warbikers' leading nob with p.klaw or big choppa, it depends on how you want to use the bikers. A warboss with big choppa is only 68 points and still quite deadly, it may be useful if you need a cheap HQ tax.
Blackie wrote: I'd go with p.klaw or killsaw on characters like warbosses, big meks, painboyz and the nobz that lead boyz and stormboyz units. Big choppa for units of nobz, maybe for nobz that lead a blob of footslogging boyz, especially shotaboyz. Warbikers' leading nob with p.klaw or big choppa, it depends on how you want to use the bikers. A warboss with big choppa is only 68 points and still quite deadly, it may be useful if you need a cheap HQ tax.
I take my warboss with a Pk pretty much every time the 2+ to hit offsets the -1 to hit a bit, the warlord trait of +1 atk only makes it better, and I'm pretty much taking a waaagh banner nob w any boy blob list so I'm back to a 2+ And str12 pretty much wrecks toughness 6 and belows face.
For the points of the Pk the warboss is the only one outside some fringe character like a tankbusta nob who can make the most use of a Pk. He has the most atks, the most str, the best to hit, and one of the toughest characters. Outside his waaagh advance calling he isn't there for anything else but to be a beatstick and occasionally break some heads. So might as well make him the beatstick character he needs to be.
Sledgio wrote: Has anyone got the statistics of nobs with Big Choppas versus Power Stabbas? Wondering what to arm mine with - shock unit coming out of a Morkanaut.
I did some math on that:
Spoiler:
Basically, looks to me like Big Choppas FTW.
Did you calculate the 6+ armor save stuff gets from pks? Cause it's wrong that klaws do the exact same damage as saws.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: Are PK's worth it compared to Big Choppas in normal boyz squads? I think with a WAAAGH! banner buff they'd be more reliable since it would offset the -1 to hit but in the instances where they aren't buffed, would you suggest just going for Big Choppas instead?
I'd get klaws for nobz in large boy squads and stabbas + bigchoppas for nob squads. Saws over klaws whenever you get an option.
I played my first game. Hot damn are lootas are great. That two damage is a killer against vehicles! I got a little lucky with my very first turn of my first game. I used a command point to turn the number of shots of a squad of 15 loot as from one each to three. That one roll changed 15 shots into 45! I ended up taking out a predator in one volley. BC felt underwhelming but I think I had them on all the wrong characters so I will reserve judgement. Boss should have them pk, as should the nobs in boys squads. But as others have said, the BC looks like it will
Shine as a majority loadout in a non squad and in a unit of koandoa where you can pick your target more precisely.
Just finished up a couple of games- pretty gross defeats against my friend's tau. I'll try and put some details together later, but an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.
In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So stick your HQs in transports and have them hop out first turn, forgo a few MSUs, run kommandos, get that first turn!
While our Melee abilities seem to have improved markedly, im still pretty raw about our shooting being really bad. I enjoy being able to make use of both and it seems were being more forced into a (though glorious)
melee only meta. Not having blasts hurt us i think and im not sure the number of shots they give our weapons now is sufficient. At least when you scattered before you could hit more than 1 unit or get lucky and have it land on
another target all together, now its just hit or miss with blasts (which were bad at). I dont think its a HUGE nerf but i doubt our shooting phases aside from some lucky rolling will be anything other than unreliable.
I am still excited for the edition as a whole but im having trouble finding my new zen with the army (havent played, i am offshore working), in 7th i was able to find a good balance between shooting and melee but i think it will be tougher to do so now.
CANT WAIT FOR RELICS! now if there's a relic that gives +1 to hit rolls for shooting that you could put on a big mek or somthing and then make your shootin squads as buffable as your melee squads that would be so cool.
Imagine lootas hitting on 4's with CP shot# rerolls. That would be one killy Unit.
DaisyWondercow wrote: Just finished up a couple of games- pretty gross defeats against my friend's tau. I'll try and put some details together later, but an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.
In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So stick your HQs in transports and have them hop out first turn, forgo a few MSUs, run kommandos, get that first turn!
I agree, we finally have resilient transports and we can strike first even with pks/killsaws, forget about footslogging hordes, their immunity to morale tests is not worth it, we already have characters to buff morale. Stormboyz & zagstruk may also be among our best options.
There's nothing wrong with a blob of 30 boyz when you are also willing to spend points on a wierdboy. You still need troops for those sweet command points. I actually prefer shootaboyz. Their shooting ain't amazing - a blob of 30 only kills around 1-2 marines in cover - that's pathetic - but they can at least try to shoot at something before betting for this 9' charge. Albeit re-rollable, it's still around 50/50. If they make it to combad - good for them. Even 2 attacks are enough for many targets. If they're charging something tougher, than this extra choppa attack won't help anywayz.
Sledgio wrote: Has anyone got the statistics of nobs with Big Choppas versus Power Stabbas? Wondering what to arm mine with - shock unit coming out of a Morkanaut.
I did some math on that:
Spoiler:
Basically, looks to me like Big Choppas FTW.
Did you calculate the 6+ armor save stuff gets from pks? Cause it's wrong that klaws do the exact same damage as saws.
Yep. You can see the difference in the "Saves" category. the issue is many things have an invul that kicks in. Rowboat Girlyman takes exactly the same from PK and Killsaw on average because of invul.
What do we reckon to Killa Kanz now? I love the models and am going to take them anyway, but on initial inspection, I'm not sure they're that good –particularly when you compare them to buggies/trakks/koptas, which seem to do a similar thing, but with greater speed/manoeuvrability.
koooaei wrote: There's nothing wrong with a blob of 30 boyz when you are also willing to spend points on a wierdboy. You still need troops for those sweet command points. I actually prefer shootaboyz. Their shooting ain't amazing - a blob of 30 only kills around 1-2 marines in cover - that's pathetic - but they can at least try to shoot at something before betting for this 9' charge. Albeit re-rollable, it's still around 50/50. If they make it to combad - good for them. Even 2 attacks are enough for many targets. If they're charging something tougher, than this extra choppa attack won't help anywayz.
One mob may be useful, an horde of footslogging boyz is not the way to go, even in this edition, luckily. About combat their 2 attacks are enough IF you have the mob intact, but after a few casualties having a third attack instead of a second shot that unlikely hits is certainly more helpful. Weirboyz look nice, but honestly I prefer warbosses and big meks as HQs.
Dojo wrote: While our Melee abilities seem to have improved markedly, im still pretty raw about our shooting being really bad. I enjoy being able to make use of both and it seems were being more forced into a (though glorious)
melee only meta. Not having blasts hurt us i think and im not sure the number of shots they give our weapons now is sufficient. At least when you scattered before you could hit more than 1 unit or get lucky and have it land on
another target all together, now its just hit or miss with blasts (which were bad at). I dont think its a HUGE nerf but i doubt our shooting phases aside from some lucky rolling will be anything other than unreliable.
I am still excited for the edition as a whole but im having trouble finding my new zen with the army (havent played, i am offshore working), in 7th i was able to find a good balance between shooting and melee but i think it will be tougher to do so now.
I think this change was natural and maybe not fully intended to hit orks as hard as it did..
The changes to shooting mostly toned down high-volume mid-strength shooting and blasts of all kinds plus it improved armor across the board. Since ork shooting was all about high volume, blasts and no AP, our shooting suffered a lot from the new rules.
From what I read in battle reports lootaz and KMK still work fine (though both have an AP value), I'm not sure about burnaz, tank bustaz or kombi-skorcha nobz as I have yet to see someone use them.
I played a game yesterday. Maybe a poor example due to my opponents bad luck, and I kinda felt bad about the ammo runts taking hits for flash gitz. Just a little though
Surprisingly dangerous in large numbers is not really a big deal. Especially in close combat. It makes a difference, but their already terrible attacks and low str is the real problem. But they are grots... so I didn't expect much. They did their job and acctually lived.
Badrukk is a machine that manufactures death at 24 inches. Definitely take all 3 ammo runtz and always shoot the higher str shots. It is a real bargain for 96 points. Even without flash gitz he would be worth his points.
Flash gitz did well even though I forgot to roll a bunch of their attacks one turn and completely forgot flashiest gitz.
The two planes in theory should have done better than I rolled with them.
Mek Gunz are great. 6 wounds will keep them going for a while unless opponent gets lucky with a high D shot. Also the fact that they are not all engaged when something like 1 dread makes it to them is great. Just have survivors fall back and then shoot at it with other gunz. Keep them bubble wrapped with a herd of gretchin to avoid other fast units getting to them early.
Gorkanaut did well obviously.
KFF is a must for first couple rounds, then some things move out of range. Painboy is meh... he does have a klaw though so is a little bit of punch for protecting flash gits without good melee weapons. It just never came to that. My opponent failed two charges on them and the over watch was vicious both times.
I think I'm going to "commission" my father to make movement trays for my green tide. 30 slots in each 4 rows of 7 with two in the back. That way everyone is in 9" range of the KFF and it doesn't take forever to move the horde. Still might drop in a pain boy in between two blobs. It sucks it's only a 6, but I used to have to pay for two..where now it's only one. Worth it to try to get in in combat?? I would worry about him getting targeted but that killsaw is brutal. Maybe I'll charge him in if there is a character I can target directly.
Yeah, I'm deffo planning movement trays now we don't need to space our guys out any more. Talking of which, it seems like full-size mobs of Shoota boyz are more viable as a result, since you're less likely to end up with part of the mob out of range due to how spaced-out the mob is.
Also, just looked at the profile for the kustom mega blasta. Why on earth would you ever take one of these? Everything that has the option of taking one can take a rokkit launcha instead and the rokkit's loads better – 1 worse AP, but guaranteed 3 damage and it won't blow you up.
I played my 1st two games. Both happened to be VS CSM lists that had Bezerkers In rhinos backed up by Spider Legged artillery (Defilers in 1 game, Soulgrinders in the other) People are gaga over Khorne Bezerkers for some reason. I don't understand it. They are definitely much improved this edition thanks to assault transports, and swinging twice, but I'm still pretty iffy on them as a viable choice, and am completely befuddled why people are so committed to making them work.
Anyways here is the 1st batrep.
Game 1
Spoiler:
We were playing 110 PL or 2,000 points.
My list
Ork Batallion (63, 1069) <- +3 Command Points Warboss (Attack Squig, Power Klaw, Kustom Shoota) *Warlord
Weirdboy (Da Jump)
Deff Dread (3 Dread Claw, Skorcha) + Deff Dread (3 Dread Claw, Skorcha) <- Drop
6 Killa Kans (5 Rokkits, 1 Skorcha) <- Drop
3 Killa Kans (3 Kustom Mega Blastas) <- Drop
One thing you can see about that list is I was counting drops. I got it down to 7 drops. That gave me an easy 1st turn. The downside of that is that my opponents basically could counter deploy me, because they put their 1st couple drops in reserves (termie char, jump char). They ended up deploying their 3 rhinos full of bezerkers our of LOW from my guns, and the 2 Defilers were too far out of range for tankbustas.
Deployment was the Pointed Hammer and Anvil. Mission was the new crusade (4 objectives).
I deployed my unit of 30 boyz at the tip of the spear clumped up as tight as I could. I put the Warboss, and Da Jump wierboy with them. Killa Kans right behind, pushed right up next to them as tight as possible. The Wagon was to one side, trukk with boyz to the other. Deff Dreads beside the Wagon, and the Tankbustas (my last drop) beside them in a position where they can get shots on the heldrake on turn 1.
Turn 1, I advanced literally everything. This was a little dumb of me, because when I used "Da Jump" on the unit of 30 boyz I had to conga line them back to the warboss. I Jumped them to 9" away from all 3 rhinos. My thinking was I could basically establish early board control and pin them in their backfield. My tankbusta trukk advanced, so they were only able to do 1 HP to the Heldrake (big shoota). My big squad of boyz made the charge, tied up all 3 rhinos (pile in picked up a Defiler which was awesome.). I put about 10 boyz into 1 rhino, the PK and 5 into another, and just 2 into the 3rd. Rhinos are freaking tough. I took 3/6/1 hull points off them respectively. Bummer. No 1st blood.
My opponent's turn he moved up the heldrake to assault my tankbusta trukk. He had 2 units of bikers 1 had meltas, the other flamers, they moved up towards my wagon. 2 of the rhinos disengaged, and dumped out their bezerkers. Shooting was disappointing to him. He shot most everything into my Wagon, and did 12 HP to it. His heldrake assaulted the trukk and did 4 HPs. Trukks and Wagons are Freaking Tough. Then his Bezerkers charged in to my big squad of boyz. He also sent in pox walkers, but they weren't a big deal. The Bezerkers who got everyone in activate, and kill 8-9 boyz. I then use command points to prempt the other squad of bezerkers, and kill 3 with boyz. Despite that, after both squads of bezerkers had swung twice, they had killed all 30 boyz, and got 1st blood off my big squad of boyz. He was really proud of himself, but I wasn't too bothered, because now they were out of the rhinos in his backfield.
Turn 2: I disembark and advance the boyz in both the trukk and the Wagon congalining them back to the Warboss who advanced so I could run and charge. Tankbustas got out so they could shoot the heldrake. One Deff dread moved to engage the heldrake, the other one moves towards some bikes. My grotzooka kans move towards bikes. My other Kans move thowards the nearest squad of bezerkers which hasn't taken any casualties and is in cover (2+). Weirdboyz smite both get D6. Heldrake takes 6 mortal wounds, 3 Bezerkers Die. Tankbustas kill the heldrake. Killa kalns kill another 3 Bezerkers. Deffdread and weirdboy charge bikes. Killa Kans Charge bikes. My big squad of killa kans tries to multi-charge a defilers, and bezerkers but roll poorly, and don't make it. My trukkboyz feared the overwatch of the defiler, so they just charged the Bezerkers, and piled in to the defiler. They killed the bezerkers My wagon boyz charged the other defiler losing 6 in overwatch ouch. Then only doing 2 wounds to it.
My opponent Sent his slightly depleted squad of bezerkers to deal with my Wagon boyz. He is discouraged that he's got practically no shooting, because I'm tieing up both defilers, and the heldrake and bikes are dead. He charges a chaos lord into the trukk boyz. My Trukk boyz are reduced to just the nob (battle shock). My wagon boyz are wiped out, but I use 2 CP to prempt the bezerkers over there, and kill 2 more. Leaving that squad at 3, and taking 5 wounds off the Defiler.
Turn 3: It's been bloody. Lots of assault, and I'm basically out of Ork boyz. But my Kans and dreads are basically untouched. Tankbustas mange to get one defiler down to a single wound. I just couldn't get that last one off. Grotzookas Kill 2 bezerkers then multi-charges the last one and the defiler, but fail to take the last wound off the defiler, and it kills a Kan (wounded earlier) My big squad of killa kans charges the other defiler, and finish it. Weirboyz managed to kill a rhino I think.
My opponent unloads his full squad of Bezerkers talks them up a bunch, and then charges them into my big squad of Kans. He talks a bunch of trash on how the bezerkers are awesome because they killed a bunch of ork boyz. When they charge the Kans, they manage to kill the wounded one, and do nothing else. The Kans swing back and kill 4 Bezerkers.
Turn 4: I've got a Chaos lord in my backfield messing with my objective, so my tankbustas pull back to handle it. I send my warboss to kill a rhino. He fails. Rhinos are tough. I charge his chaos lord with a deff dread, but he prempts and kills it. My kans kill the rest of the Bezerkers.
He doesn't have much left so plays for objectives.
Turn 5: My remaining Deff dread plus warboss kill his chaos lord, taking one of his 2 objectives. I've got Grotzooka Kans on another, my Battle wagon on a 3rd, and my big squad of Kans are moving tokill the poxwarlkers on the final one.
My opponent's got a Rhino and some pox walkers left, so he concedes.
10 Lootas
10 Lootas
Battlewagon (Kannon) <- Drop w/ Lootas
Trukk (Big Shoota) <- Drop w/ Boyz + Weirdboy
Trukk (Big Shoota) <- Drop w/ Boyz + Weirdboy
Trukk (Big Shoota) <- Drop w/ Tankbustas
NOTE: I screwed up building this list. I needed 1 more troop to make it legal.
He's got 3 rhinos full of bezerkers, and 2 Soul grinders, a Chaos Lord on bike. Some Pox Walkers, and a spawn.
We played the pointed version of Dawn of War. Mission was new emperor's will. I went 1st because of fewer dropps. I dropped the tankbustas last, so that I could deploy them against a soul grinder on 1 flank.
Turn 1: I moved all 3 trukks up on the right flank. Tankbustas manage to do 15 wounds ot a soul grinder. I shoot all my lootas at it, and every other gun I have, and can't take the last wound off. Still pretty good.
He advanced everything. Except 1 rhino which charges my Tankbusta trukk. Doh!. That was dumb.
Turn 2: I disembark my tankbustas so they can shoot, and then build a line of trukks in front of them to protect them. They finish the wounded Soul grinder, and kill a rhino. Tankbustas are AWESOME. The lootas do 8 wounds to the other Soul Grinder, and kill the Spawn. *I should have disembarked the Weirdboyz to do some mortal wounds, but I didn't, because I was dumb.
He charges one of my trukks with a rhino, and the bezerkers who lost their rhino. The other Rhino Advances around my Trukk wall towards the lootas. The bezerkers kill my rhino, and pile in into the boyz that disembark from it.
Turn 3: I Disembark my last unit of boyz and weird boy, and reembark my Tank bustas. Between my 2 weird boyz I smite the unit of bezerkers to death. Whoo. Lootas take the Last Soulgrinder all the way down to its last wound. Then the tankbustas shoot another rhino to death, and 3 bezerkers die coming out, but the remaining deploy far from my boyz. I need a 12" charge. The boyz that were tied up charge the lord on bike, and do 1 wound to him, and lose 3 boyz. I make my 12" charge and kill all but 2 bezerkers. They manage to kill a bunch of boyz.
His last rhino charges my Battlewagon to tie up my Lootas. Doh!. I do 1 more wound to the chaos lord, and lose a few boyz (down to the nob). my other boyz finish the bezerkers, but are left with just the nob.
Turn 4: I disembark the lootas so they can shoot, and disengage the wagon. I shoot 1/2 at the Soul Grinder and fail to kill it. I shoot the others at the rhino and fail to kill it. My tankbustas have to avance back towards the rhino, so only do 6 wounds to it because of snap shooting. Weirdboyz kill the chaos lord, but he manages to kill 1 weirdboy, and the nob. Other Nob charges the poxwalkers, kills 2, and gets Heroic interventioned by another chaos lord who smashes him.
He moves up his wounded soulgrinder, and between it and the rhino they kill 6, and the rest die to battleshock. His bezerkers assault, and kill the other squad, but take several casualties. That means he's got my Emperor's will objective, and the poxwalkers have his. It's looking bleak.
We made a mistake right here, and rolled for the end of the game, because we thought it was bottom of 5. The game ended and he won. But he wanted to play it out, basically to witness the glory that is bezerkers.
Turn 5: I disembark the tank bustas, kill the soul grinder with 2 of them, and a bunch of bezerkers. My trukk and battle wagon manage to kill the rhino. I didn't kill enough bezerkers, so I charge the last 4, and kill 2 in CC. Unfortunately, those 2 kill about 1/2 of my tankbustas.
On his turn nothing to do so he just fights. He kills the last of the tankbustas, but is left with 1 bezerker who can't take the objective from my vehicles. It would be a dead tie right here (He has LB, I have FB).
Turn 6: My vehicles kill the last bezerker, so I would have had the win if it went to this turn, but as it was, I lost.
Here are some lessons and takaways.
1) Transports are really, really durable.
2) Killakans are really durable, and remarkedly killy.
3) Deff Dreads and Killa Kans are slow, and can't keep up with a faster army.
4) Killa Kans can contribute at range better than Deff Dreads, and are cheaper, I like them quite alot. Deff Dreads, not so much.
5) Tankbustas are AWESOME. Reroll to hit is so very, very good.
6) Take a backfield support unit. Mek Gunz are a good choice. Lootas are fine.
7) Lootas were underwhelming, and Lootas in a Wagon need a screening unit really, really bad.
8) Khorne bezerkers can kill infantry now. I guess that is something since people are gaga over them.
9) Boyz basically lost an attack with the end of the charge bonus. That hurts. Bad. They just can't kill MEK as easily as they used to. It hurts PK nobz especially bad, because they hit on 4's. There were many combats where the nob just missed entirely.
10) the loss of the ability to attach chars to boyz hurts as well. I'm not sure I'm feeling boyz as a very viable unit to actually kill stuff in 8th.
11) Seeing how durable the vehicles were, I think my preconceptions that the meta will develop into Big things, and things that can kill big things. Boyz used to be able to kill medium things like rhinos. No longer.
Was thinking I might try popping MANz in a 'Naut's tummy – to help mitigate the 4" move. On the other hand, I wonder if I'd be better off just Advancing the MANz (averaging 7.5" a turn, and then they can still shoot) and putting something less resilient in the 'Naut. Burnas seem like they might be the best option here, since they aren't going to miss out on any shooting until they're within 8". Maybe a unit of Nobz, but they're less fragile these days.
The visual of a unit of burna boys kicking open the doors to a gork/morkanaught and just setting shut on fire is getting me giddy! Haha. I'm on mobile so can't check the rules but man and burnas are a natural compliment I feel. Wether it's in a wagon or a naught (less viable if it's only 10 models) the burnas add some weight of numbers and a decent amount of auto hits to soften a target up while manz have the ap punch. Especially with a killsaw in there.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: The visual of a unit of burna boys kicking open the doors to a gork/morkanaught and just setting shut on fire is getting me giddy! Haha. I'm on mobile so can't check the rules but man and burnas are a natural compliment I feel. Wether it's in a wagon or a naught (less viable if it's only 10 models) the burnas add some weight of numbers and a decent amount of auto hits to soften a target up while manz have the ap punch. Especially with a killsaw in there.
Unfortunately you can only get six guys into a naut, but you could fit min-sized MANz and Burna units in a Trukk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Errr anyone else noticed that Lootas and Tankbustas are the same number of points, but Lootas are twice the Power Level? Got to be a mistake, right?
What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.
Anpu-adom wrote: What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.
Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.
I was able to get two games in with the new orks this past Saturday. My list at 1850 was a ton of boyz like I think my model count was 155 models 113 of which were boy squads. I also brought stormboyz in a group of 23. 20 lootas in the backfield, Nob Banner and Grotsnik + 3 Biker Warbosses. Oh and the real MVPSs 20 gretchin.
My main takeaways from the ork units themselves are:
1. Grotsnik is borderline auto include. He is 9 more points than a standard painboy and gives you klan wide 'healing', +1 toughess, +2 leadership, a 4+ save, a built in 5+ ignore wounds on himself, AND he hits on 2s+ which is huge because he uses a power klaw. Hitting on 3s instead of 4s when you have 4 attacks is pretty big. This dude is very durable and can really be a clutch force multiplier with his power klaw.
2. Hordes are strong when backed by beefy hitters. I had a huge amount of boyz marching up the field and everything that was high value was a character hidding amongst them.
Big weapons get wasted on hordes backed by ICS. Now the boyz do lack a bit of killing power against vehicles so I do advise always having something killy around them like a warboss when you really need something dead.
"Alright this weapon is s10 - 4 and does d6 wounds".
- "Ok have fun killing a single 6 point model with it."
3. Biker Warbosses are great for their price. These guys are tough, durable and dead killy. For me they are my go to HQs. but I do make a note to make sure to minimize attacks they can receive back from dedicated melee squads. Keep him screened.
4. Nob with a banner is an auto include for me. His +1 to hit is HUGE when you are getting 50+ attacks on average and especially so when he is around power klaw users. Its also fun watching him beat a space marine to death with the banner itself.
5. Lootas perform well against infantry and monsters. I did not get to test them against vehicles so I cannot attest to that. 20 lootas divided between two squads managed to 100 - 0 a Swarmlord turn and 12 Lootas took out 3 Custodes. One really big thing I found was being able to use command points to re-roll their D3 shots. It goes a long way in making them more reliable shooters. They really need volume of fire to be effective, but oh boy when they are rolling hots things die. I really like them as a long range support unit camping in ruins somewhere.
6. Gretchin are good slot fillers and screeners. I enjoy watching them eat fire for the boyz. They have a place if you really cannot afford the extra points for a boy squad which can happen.
7. Shootas versus choppas I have not tested. I think choppas will be the better rout to go considering its a melee army and you really want those extra attacks.
8. Weirdboyz are our doomed saviors. They are very reliable spell casters if you run model heavy, but they will kill themselves very quickly. However they are great for flinging boyz around and I also found they were BRUTAL at dishing out smite damage because if they manifest over a 10 they do d6 mortal wounds. They are cheap at 62 points and really bring a lot to the table.
Yeah lootas and burnas are two totally different roles. Maybe burnas and gitz together as the gitz need to be a bit closer and the burnas can act as a buffer/counter assault unit.
Do models like ammo runts/grot oilers/bomb squigs count as "models" for transport capacity???
Edit: great takeaways, iron blood. I feel the same way. Hordes can be great if backed up properly with the right characters and weapon loadouts. Do you plan on/did you use a kff Mek or park boy to protect the boys? If positioned propeealy one of each can be used on two units. That's an extra 50% causality protection when combines.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I think I'm going to "commission" my father to make movement trays for my green tide. 30 slots in each 4 rows of 7 with two in the back. That way everyone is in 9" range of the KFF and it doesn't take forever to move the horde. Still might drop in a pain boy in between two blobs. It sucks it's only a 6, but I used to have to pay for two..where now it's only one. Worth it to try to get in in combat?? I would worry about him getting targeted but that killsaw is brutal. Maybe I'll charge him in if there is a character I can target directly.
For 2pts more then a painboy w killsaw and runt just take mad doc. He hits on a 3+ has a 4+ sv, higher toughness, has a double chance to fnp with his personal 5+ and his aura 6+ and better leadership for units close to him. He does have 1 less ablative wound since he doesn t have a runt.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Yeah lootas and burnas are two totally different roles. Maybe burnas and gitz together as the gitz need to be a bit closer and the burnas can act as a buffer/counter assault unit.
Do models like ammo runts/grot oilers/bomb squigs count as "models" for transport capacity???
Edit: great takeaways, iron blood. I feel the same way. Hordes can be great if backed up properly with the right characters and weapon loadouts. Do you plan on/did you use a kff Mek or park boy to protect the boys? If positioned propeealy one of each can be used on two units. That's an extra 50% causality protection when combines.
I did not use a big mek. I know id rather not use a mega armored or biker one because they cost a lot more than id like them to. Now a basic mek with no upgrades and just a kff is 75 points which is not terrible. My only issues with bringing one are that its 75 points to protect a bunch of boyz from range in a 9' bubble and I HAVE to stay fully within that range which hurts my mobility. In addition it would be pretty easy to just shoot at the units that are not protected. I think id rather take more boyz or a wierdboy for that price and just accept the fact that my boy hordes will die. That and assault is not uncommon in my meta and it does not help there.
Anpu-adom wrote: What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.
Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.
My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.
Yep. You can see the difference in the "Saves" category. the issue is many things have an invul that kicks in. Rowboat Girlyman takes exactly the same from PK and Killsaw on average because of invul.
Anpu-adom wrote: What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.
Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.
My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.
I may be misunderstanding what you mean by if opponent goes first. You don't have to worry about their survivability in that instance, you don't have to set them up until the end of your own movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.
My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.
exactly. deploy into reserves, then if you go first they can deploy 9" away anywhere on the board. go for T1 charge to tie stuff up. if you go second, see what they do, counter deploy and charge T1. basically they can be used to tie up backfield shooty stuff, or to deploy as an invisible screen to anything your opponent threatens. not to mention as they deploy at the end of your movement, they will literally never get in the way if you need to retreat.
That BW full of gitz getting rushed by bikers? reverse, deploy an invisible bubble wrap and unload those 30 shots with re-rolls. then charge with the kommandos if you think its better than waiting for the charge
Anpu-adom wrote: What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.
Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.
My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.
I may be misunderstanding what you mean by if opponent goes first. You don't have to worry about their survivability in that instance, you don't have to set them up until the end of your own movement phase.
Doyyy, of course. Forgot they set up at the end of your Movement phase rather than at deployment. You understood perfectly, I was just being a div.
Ok so if a big Mek with kff and mad doc grotsnik are essentially the same price.. what do you guys think would have a lager impact overall? I'm leaning towards the doc as not only do you not need to have everyone in a tight bubble, but his ability is both shooing and cc. Granted it's only a 6+. Would be nice to have a big tough cc monster like a MA warboss in front of him so he can heal him d3 every turn. Warboss needs to babysit da boyZ anyway for a proper waaagh!
Having a hard time seeing when a kff > doc except when you know you will be facing a shooting heavy army.
I have got a great schematic for a movement tray. 4 rows of 7 in a staggered arrangement. The furthest boy in the tray would be 8" away and perfectly within the mek's bubble. Either way, it will be nice to not have to move 90+ models several times a game. 1/4" between models. 1/8" deep
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Ok so if a big Mek with kff and mad doc grotsnik are essentially the same price.. what do you guys think would have a lager impact overall? I'm leaning towards the doc as not only do you not need to have everyone in a tight bubble, but his ability is both shooing and cc. Granted it's only a 6+. Would be nice to have a big tough cc monster like a MA warboss in front of him so he can heal him d3 every turn. Warboss needs to babysit da boyZ anyway for a proper waaagh!
Having a hard time seeing when a kff > doc except when you know you will be facing a shooting heavy army.
I have got a great schematic for a movement tray. 4 rows of 7 in a staggered arrangement. The furthest boy in the tray would be 8" away and perfectly within the mek's bubble. Either way, it will be nice to not have to move 90+ models several times a game. 1/4" between models. 1/8" deep
They should be used together. You get both saves. As to which is better, they do different things. KFF is a better save but you don't get it against mortal wounds or in close combat. Painboy/Grotsnik is only 6+ and can be taken vs mortal wounds and in close combat.
Using both is best, but I have saved far more units with KFF. Also painboy/grotsnik does nothing for vehicles.
My plan is to use the KFF to project a bit of a safety net against turn on alpha on my trukk line. Kff save + ramshackle makes it seem like I can intend to not lose any trukks in the first turn of a game going forward except after I've used them for what they are intended in my lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Does the "open topped" rule allow occupants in a battlewagon to benefit from "Mobile fortress"
I wasn't feeling the KFF at all due to the challenge of keeping a squad of boyz "Fully within" 9". However, after playing a couple games with Killa Kans, I'm changing my tune. KFF big mek would go really well with a Kan wall. He can repair the walkers, too. I think it isn't for boyz, it is for Vehicles.
Yep. You can see the difference in the "Saves" category. the issue is many things have an invul that kicks in. Rowboat Girlyman takes exactly the same from PK and Killsaw on average because of invul.
I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.
Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.
Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?
A point of advice: Never argue during games, your opponent will always subconsciously argue in his favor since he is in danger of losing model at that very moment. You will rarely get an objective discussion during a game. Just offer to 4+ it, ask the host or just agree with him to resolve the matter as fast as possible.
It might suck for that moment that your opponent and/or host got the rules wrong, but getting into a heated argument instead of killing stuff sucks even more. If you have rules issues, resolve them before or after the game. Next time try talking about open topped before deployment, or have a talk with the GW manager when you're in the store next time. Show him the relevant rules and ask him why he thinks they work differently. Next time he gets called over he might make the right call.
Also, never argue with a group of people. Chances are that one popular person will make a call and everyone else will just agree because of that person's reputation without even bothering with the rules. When you factor in that no one wants to be wrong in front of his buddies, you have little chance to change their opinion. Nothing to be won here but hard feelings.
Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?
They do, in fact they can be taken only for mitigating the exploding result when the vehicle is wrecked. Since you can chose the eventual casualties grots/squigs are the perfect candidates to play the role of the expendable part of the unit. If you plan to use multiwounds units in trukks like nobz and flash gitz one ammo runt at least can be invaluable for its cost. Meganobz can't take ammo runts but they can share the trukk with a painboy with a grot orderly, or with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig.
DaisyWondercow wrote: an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.
In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So <SNIP> run kommandos, get that first turn!
I want to talk about kommandos and deployment as it seems to be inferred that using them reduces your total number of deployments, i would disagree but i would like others opinions.
Kommando entry states "During deployment, you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding instead of placing them on the battlefield"
Lets dissect the sentence
"During Deployment" - pretty obvious, during Deployment as outlined by the scenario.
", you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding" - gives a secondary deployment option
"instead of placing them on the battlefield" - the normal option for deployment during 'Deployment'
I see this as still having to use the normal deployment rules (as per scenario) but having a secondary option. This is how i see them being deployed
During Deployment
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork player - I select kommando unit 1 in hiding 'instead of placing them on the battlefield'
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork Player - I select kommando unit 2 and place them *here*
I dont see where their alternate placement method means they skips normal deployment, unless there is a rule in the rulebook that i have missed (a possibility as we dont even have the rules yet )
I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;
Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?
Using large blobs.
But I dont know. To me it seems a bit annoying that if we field anything even remotely MSU were almost always guaranteed second turn. Now that there is split fire, there is almost nothing gained from MSU, especially if they split their shots and get the rolls they wanted. So it seems almost every horde list is at a disadvantage; even though your both playing to the same points value.
I mean I get the idea, that now you can build a list in order to go first. But who builds a list to go second? The only time I can think of where going second was useful would be an alpha strike list. But now I would imagine most alpha strike lists will be going first anyway, as they tended to be lighter on units (due to units that could alpha strike were more elite based.). But we will have to see.
What ways do orks have to go first?
Dredds - 1 slot, deploy together but then act as single units?
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.
Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?
A point of advice: Never argue during games, your opponent will always subconsciously argue in his favor since he is in danger of losing model at that very moment. You will rarely get an objective discussion during a game. Just offer to 4+ it, ask the host or just agree with him to resolve the matter as fast as possible.
It might suck for that moment that your opponent and/or host got the rules wrong, but getting into a heated argument instead of killing stuff sucks even more. If you have rules issues, resolve them before or after the game. Next time try talking about open topped before deployment, or have a talk with the GW manager when you're in the store next time. Show him the relevant rules and ask him why he thinks they work differently. Next time he gets called over he might make the right call.
Also, never argue with a group of people. Chances are that one popular person will make a call and everyone else will just agree because of that person's reputation without even bothering with the rules. When you factor in that no one wants to be wrong in front of his buddies, you have little chance to change their opinion. Nothing to be won here but hard feelings.
Good words of advice. I was mad, but only in my head. I would never ruin the game for my opponent by squabbling over rules. We paused the game to analyze for future refernce as everyone was interested. The black shirt just refused to listen to reason. I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty. He just kept saying "its my store my rules" Thats what got me upset. But me and opponent were cool. Luckily they was lootas inside and they didnt need to move
On the bit about Kommandos, if someone is claiming taking kommandos lowers your number of deployments.. thats just wrong. As MangoMadness pointed out it clearly states "during deployment"
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty.
I have to say, I don't think it's 100% clear- it is going to come down to "what is a modifier?". My read is that both the BW and the passengers get stuck with -1 with HWs for moving (using the open topped rule, that modifier applies to both)- THEN the BW has a special rule that allows it to ignore the modifier. Open topped doesn't confer special rules.
That said, I may be wrong- this is definitely prime day 1 errata material. Good on you for not getting pulled in.
Planning on running 8-10 Nobz. How do you feel about combi-skorchas? They cost as much as another Nob but they overcome the lackluster BS and might be useful in overwatch if you happen to catch a charge. Are they worth it or should I just use the points for another Nob?
Cool, I just read it in a few posts and thought i would get clarification, its early days and its easy to not fully understand how things work.
Solar Shock wrote: I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;
[list]Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?
Yes, I wondered about this one as well.
Main Rulebook P183. Right Column in black, 3rd paragraph down
"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."
So you can squeeze 5 drops into 1 with a trukk. 2 x 5 Ork squads + 2 characters
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty.
I have to say, I don't think it's 100% clear- it is going to come down to "what is a modifier?". My read is that both the BW and the passengers get stuck with -1 with HWs for moving (using the open topped rule, that modifier applies to both)- THEN the BW has a special rule that allows it to ignore the modifier. Open topped doesn't confer special rules.
That said, I may be wrong- this is definitely prime day 1 errata material. Good on you for not getting pulled in.
How I see it:
The passengers suffer the same mods as the BW (per Open Topped).
The BW doesnt suffer the -1 through move and shoot.
Thus the passengers dont suffer the -1 as well.
Solar Shock wrote: I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;
[list]Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?
Yes, I wondered about this one as well.
Main Rulebook P183. Right Column in black, 3rd paragraph down
"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."
So you can squeeze 5 drops into 1 with a trukk. 2 x 5 Ork squads + 2 characters
So like you said, maybe by always taking 1 out of the transport (so trukk boyz at 11) you will be able to deploy all your characters in vehicles. As you would then likely have first turn, you can simply disembark the characters (say if it was a KFF mek that you wanted to footslog with kanz), thus you don't lose out, you'll get first turn, your KFF with be out shielding for when its their turn etc...
That could be reasonably viable for reducing deployments. Its obviously dependent on where you need your characters to be, but I feel like as this seems to be quite a choppy edition for orks, getting first turn could be quite important.
DaisyWondercow wrote: an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.
In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So <SNIP> run kommandos, get that first turn!
I want to talk about kommandos and deployment as it seems to be inferred that using them reduces your total number of deployments, i would disagree but i would like others opinions.
Kommando entry states "During deployment, you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding instead of placing them on the battlefield"
Lets dissect the sentence
"During Deployment" - pretty obvious, during Deployment as outlined by the scenario.
", you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding" - gives a secondary deployment option
"instead of placing them on the battlefield" - the normal option for deployment during 'Deployment'
I see this as still having to use the normal deployment rules (as per scenario) but having a secondary option. This is how i see them being deployed
During Deployment
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork player - I select kommando unit 1 in hiding 'instead of placing them on the battlefield'
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork Player - I select kommando unit 2 and place them *here*
I dont see where their alternate placement method means they skips normal deployment, unless there is a rule in the rulebook that i have missed (a possibility as we dont even have the rules yet )
What do you think and why do you think it?
Rereading this, I'd say you're completely right. It makes sense, makes the rules better and more consistent, and would apply to all the new "deepstrike" units. I'm just stuck in the past still!
I'd echo the follow up question, though- do you deploy a transport and then deploy each passenger unit into it?
I've tried min kommandoes and they're not bad cause of free nob, burnas and infiltrate. But it's a rare day they ever get to use this +1 for cover.
They're fine to supplement the front or grab a remote point for just 45 pts. But i'd not expect them to actually tie stuff up on their own. Cause they're likely to be far away from a warboss and loose 1-2 guyz to overwatch and than 1-2 to mellee retaliation, the rest can just run away from ld. And if not, enemy can simply fall back and shoot a couple bolters at them to finish off.
koooaei wrote: I've tried min kommandoes and they're not bad cause of free nob, burnas and infiltrate. But it's a rare day they ever get to use this +1 for cover.
They're fine to supplement the front or grab a remote point for just 45 pts. But i'd not expect them to actually tie stuff up on their own. Cause they're likely to be far away from a warboss and loose 1-2 guyz to overwatch and than 1-2 to mellee retaliation, the rest can just run away from ld. And if not, enemy can simply fall back and shoot a couple bolters at them to finish off.
They're still nice for the price.
Exactly this. I also used them though to scare the hell out of a SM Gunline army last weekend.
I gave my Nobs Big Choppas and had them "appear" behind his main lines next to his whirlewinds/predators (2 of each) I Had 4 squads of them and they managed 2 successful assaults on his gunline and due to the new CC rules I was able to tie up all 4 vehicles for his turn. Turn 2 the other units were able to close and assault as well. By this point he freaked out so badly he retreated his units to try and save his vehicles and my Stormboyz and BW Boyz mopped up the game.
In all fairness to SM players though this guy was a clown with no tactics beyond "shoot everything".
DaisyWondercow wrote: an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.
In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So <SNIP> run kommandos, get that first turn!
I want to talk about kommandos and deployment as it seems to be inferred that using them reduces your total number of deployments, i would disagree but i would like others opinions.
Kommando entry states "During deployment, you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding instead of placing them on the battlefield"
Lets dissect the sentence
"During Deployment" - pretty obvious, during Deployment as outlined by the scenario.
", you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding" - gives a secondary deployment option
"instead of placing them on the battlefield" - the normal option for deployment during 'Deployment'
I see this as still having to use the normal deployment rules (as per scenario) but having a secondary option. This is how i see them being deployed
During Deployment
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork player - I select kommando unit 1 in hiding 'instead of placing them on the battlefield'
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork Player - I select kommando unit 2 and place them *here*
I dont see where their alternate placement method means they skips normal deployment, unless there is a rule in the rulebook that i have missed (a possibility as we dont even have the rules yet )
What do you think and why do you think it?
Ya I see your point and I agree with you however you don't deploy them during deployment phase. They are in reserves until you decide in which turn during your movement phase you wish to deploy. Sadly that should be all that matters for deciding who gets first turn. If it wasn't then every unit deployed in a vehicle would count for deployment. Since you actually need to declare during the deployment phase which units are deployed in which vehicles.
Weazel wrote: Planning on running 8-10 Nobz. How do you feel about combi-skorchas? They cost as much as another Nob but they overcome the lackluster BS and might be useful in overwatch if you happen to catch a charge. Are they worth it or should I just use the points for another Nob?
I want to love Kombii weapons so bad! Just from a modeling perspective the thought of just attaching a scorches to the kombi shoota with some greenstuff rope or greenstuff "duct tape" is hilarious to me. I just wish they were cheaper!! 20 points is a lot. How many times will you fire that scorcha in 5 turns? 2 maybe three times? An extra nob will fight twice as many times as that. If I did Kombi weapons, I think rokkits with a couple ammo runts (which I will be taking anyways to eat wounds) could be quite effective. My first game the opponent had a ton of rhinos. And they didn't do a lot of damage but he would drop the unit inside hen use the rhinos to block me and tie up other units. Forcing them to fall back and I just didn't have enough rokkits to take them down fast enough. Volume rokkit fire is going to be helpful in a world of such tough transports.
Not sure where you get 240. It could be anywhere. The power rating is 2/3 of a morkanaut so 180 or 200 with a Kff. In all honesty this will replace my morkanaut as the KFF dread since the morkanauts weapons are a bit lackluster compared to the gorkanaut. The mega charga is an interesting choice for a cheap melee version HOWEVER the ramshackle monster seems ripe for some command point rerolls for an extremely durable KFF dread. 3+ armor OR 5+ invul, and then a 4+ FNP. Even vs mortal wounds that 4+ FNP is insanely strong with command point rerolls.
Secondly Im confused on the arm options? did Fw at some point sell a rattler kannon arm and a big zappa arm? Because the only arm options sold right now are Klaw, kill saw, shunta, and killkannon arms for the meka/mega dread series. And I am assuming the mega dread will have the killkannon and killsaw options instead. Depending on the cost of the arms the zzap kannon is fairly nice for a 4+ bs ork vehicle with Heavy 3 shots average str7, ap-4 with 4 damage.
The Meka-dredd looks soooo fun. Im taking two for sure. The mega-charga for literally getting it straight up the board. I still think a KFF morka might be a good companion. Then you can have a CC orientated meka that literally steams up the board the morka right behind it to give it a tasty 5++ to shooting.
Then they have to decide do they go for the CC monster that has a 4+ FNP. or the morka shielding it.
Or maybe you just go full ham and gorkas/meka's. Could be brutal. Gona get my converting going!
koooaei wrote: I've tried min kommandoes and they're not bad cause of free nob, burnas and infiltrate. But it's a rare day they ever get to use this +1 for cover.
I understand the burnas are free because they cost no points, but how is the nob free? Dont you have to pay the 17 points for a boss nob in every squad?
For those sick of flipping back and forth through the leaked indexes:
One of the better German army building tools just added Orks for 8th and even includes comand point calculation. From what I can tell there aren't any obvious errors in it either.
Some parts of it are in German, but currently all unit and upgrade names are in English, so you can use it for list building even if you don't know any German:
This actually looks really good, the additional BS is really nice too. This gives me a bit of hope for the rest of our FW releases as we need some more shooty threat.
Jidmah wrote: For those sick of flipping back and forth through the leaked indexes:
One of the better German army building tools just added Orks for 8th and even includes comand point calculation. From what I can tell there aren't any obvious errors in it either.
Some parts of it are in German, but currently all unit and upgrade names are in English, so you can use it for list building even if you don't know any German:
While I'm very happy to hear.. can you provide an explanation as to why?
Lets use a boyz mob as an example. It says a boy can be replaced with a boss nob. I was under the assumption I had to pay the 17 points associated with a "nob" in the points section. However, on closer examination it says "Nobz" which is the entry associated with a unit of nobz.. and there is no entry for "Boss nob". WOW thats amazing. Free boss nobz. What a time to be alive.
The nob upgrade is now free in each unit that can have it. Boyz, warbikers, kommandos, tankbustas, stormboyz... they can all have a nob leading them without paying any cost
Blackie wrote: The nob upgrade is now free in each unit that can have it. Boyz, warbikers, kommandos, tankbustas, stormboyz... they can all have a nob leading them without paying any cost
I don't know if I would say it is free. it is part of the unit cost itself. so a boyz mob is balanced at 6 points per model under the assumption of a nob being present, same was tau now have shasui (sp?) include din the cost
One boy just becomes a Boss Nob, you don't need to spend any points to do that. Same thing for Sergeants in the Imperium armies. Reecius was asked about it about a week ago, and that was his answer.
I Really like what theyve done with Orks this edition! So much better.
Here is the list I was going to run as my start point:
Batallion:
Warboss, kustom shoota big choppa
Weirdboy
Nob with banner, kustom shoota
Painboy klaw
Painboy klaw
5x30 orks
1x29 orks
Trukk big shoota
Supreme Command
5xWeirdboy
Fortification
Void shield generator
Love the idea of putting 180 orks down using the void shields and pain boys to help advance across the field using wound shenanigans, while weirdboys pick off bits and pieces. Orks are so much better in combat with str4!
Jpr wrote: I Really like what theyve done with Orks this edition! So much better.
Here is the list I was going to run as my start point:
Batallion:
Warboss, kustom shoota big choppa
Weirdboy
Nob with banner, kustom shoota
Painboy klaw
Painboy klaw
5x30 orks
1x29 orks
Trukk big shoota
Supreme Command
5xWeirdboy
Fortification
Void shield generator
Love the idea of putting 180 orks down using the void shields and pain boys to help advance across the field using wound shenanigans, while weirdboys pick off bits and pieces. Orks are so much better in combat with str4!
Why so many Weird boys. Right now there a total of 4 Powers. What kind of game is this for? If it's matched play you'll have a few weirdboys standing around waiting their turn.
I use them for smiting, they can easily do lots of d6 mortal wounds as you can cast multiple smites (its an exception in matched play) and they are great for removing tougher vehicles and things. Of course you only hit the closest target but im happy removing d6x6 wounds every turn!
This is where I'm at right now, at least for a start.
Batallion:
Big Mek, KFF and oiler
Big Mek, KFF and oiler
11 Slugga Boyz and Nob
11 Slugga Boyz and Nob
11 Slugga Boyz and Nob
8 Burnas
Battle Wagon w/Deff Rolla
3 Trukks w/Wreckin's Ball
Outrider
Big Mek, KFF and Oiler
2 Deff Dreads, 2 Klaws, Skorcha, and Big Shoota on each
3 Killa Kans w/Rokkits
3 Killa Kans w/Rokkits
3 Killa Kans w/Grotzooka
3 Killa Kan
Jpr wrote: I use them for smiting, they can easily do lots of d6 mortal wounds as you can cast multiple smites (its an exception in matched play) and they are great for removing tougher vehicles and things. Of course you only hit the closest target but im happy removing d6x6 wounds every turn!
I completely missed that. Learn something new everyday lol.
Jpr wrote: I Really like what theyve done with Orks this edition! So much better.
Here is the list I was going to run as my start point:
Batallion:
Warboss, kustom shoota big choppa
Weirdboy
Nob with banner, kustom shoota
Painboy klaw
Painboy klaw
5x30 orks
1x29 orks
Trukk big shoota
Supreme Command
5xWeirdboy
Fortification
Void shield generator
Love the idea of putting 180 orks down using the void shields and pain boys to help advance across the field using wound shenanigans, while weirdboys pick off bits and pieces. Orks are so much better in combat with str4!
how are folks getting on with deffkoptas? seem to be one of the units that have changed the most almost trippled in pts but more durable, better setup options and the bigbomm!
Latro_ wrote: how are folks getting on with deffkoptas? seem to be one of the units that have changed the most almost trippled in pts but more durable, better setup options and the bigbomm!
Stripped them of their now useless rokkitz and gave them a pair of big shootas. They did decent work and were excellent support for my Kommandos
On release day (this weekend) they should go out automatically.
Used to love battle scribe, and I would gladly pay for a premium version... but the subscription model is garbage and I booted it off my phone the second I saw it.
Thank you to those who've worked on the battlescribe data. I've been testing the beta files for a few days now, and I haven't discovered anything that didn't work right.
davou wrote: Used to love battle scribe, and I would gladly pay for a premium version... but the subscription model is garbage and I booted it off my phone the second I saw it.
Call me a hipocrite, because I write BS data files, and I don't pay for premium. I just use the free version.
davou wrote: Used to love battle scribe, and I would gladly pay for a premium version... but the subscription model is garbage and I booted it off my phone the second I saw it.
Call me a hipocrite, because I write BS data files, and I don't pay for premium. I just use the free version.
you do good work, but I cant stomach the way that model works
Ok, i'll need to take a look. My 7-th stratege revolved around bully boyz in trukks protected by vsg.
Anywayz, i'm concerned about ork listbuilding. Regular boyz can actually deal good damage if they're buffed up by Ghaz and banner nob and still have sufficient numbers. But they need to make it to combat intact and with some shooting that opponents possess it's gona be hard. Painboys don't add that much and kff meks don't work that great either cause they force boyz to bunch up. They're decent at protecting vehicles vs AT guns.
The problem i face right now is that i want a wagon full of nobz and preferably ghaz to buff the striking fist. And i want a lot of boyz and stormboyz. But they need another boss to watch for morale. And a wierdboy to teleport stuff around. And a KFF mek to protect everything. And a painboy to heal up the wierdboy and add this tiny bit of durability to the horde. And a banner nob to make them actually kill stuff in mellee. And...it's just too much stuff to fit in a regular ~1500pt list.
I guess we can't have everything. Which is a good thing, ofc. Not something we're used to after 7-th where only 20% of the book was viable
The problem i face right now is that i want a wagon full of nobz and preferably ghaz to buff the striking fist. And i want a lot of boyz and stormboyz. But they need another boss to watch for morale. And a wierdboy to teleport stuff around. And a KFF mek to protect everything. And a painboy to heal up the wierdboy and add this tiny bit of durability to the horde. And a banner nob to make them actually kill stuff in mellee. And...it's just too much stuff to fit in a regular ~1500pt list.
I guess we can't have everything. Which is a good thing, ofc. Not something we're used to after 7-th where only 20% of the book was viable
I hope what we will see is this feeling across all the codex's. So that all armies feel like they have to pick for the lower points games which thing are they going to focus around. As for your KFF. Personally I would add in a walker with a KFF. Could be great to have a meka-dred storming up the board alongside your boyz. Also makes the KFF area far larger. But thats just my two cents. Because for me, its walker time!
Stompa
Meka
+ whatever else I can fit in at 1500
Thats my first list im going with
This is what i'm initially gonna go with, its more or less a direct conversion of my 7th ed list.
Quite mental how many characters you can get.
Is it me or do storm boyz almost feel undercosted? they:
- Went down a point (they were already cheap imo compared to boyz)
- Slower than before but compared to a normal ork whos now m5 they're 2pts more for over double the movement
- Obvious S increase (but all orks get this ofc)
The problem i face right now is that i want a wagon full of nobz and preferably ghaz to buff the striking fist. And i want a lot of boyz and stormboyz. But they need another boss to watch for morale. And a wierdboy to teleport stuff around. And a KFF mek to protect everything. And a painboy to heal up the wierdboy and add this tiny bit of durability to the horde. And a banner nob to make them actually kill stuff in mellee. And...it's just too much stuff to fit in a regular ~1500pt list.
I guess we can't have everything. Which is a good thing, ofc. Not something we're used to after 7-th where only 20% of the book was viable
I hope what we will see is this feeling across all the codex's. So that all armies feel like they have to pick for the lower points games which thing are they going to focus around. As for your KFF. Personally I would add in a walker with a KFF. Could be great to have a meka-dred storming up the board alongside your boyz. Also makes the KFF area far larger. But thats just my two cents. Because for me, its walker time!
Stompa
Meka
+ whatever else I can fit in at 1500
Thats my first list im going with
I think it's naught time! Stompa - i'm not so keen on for 900+ pts. But naughts are durable enough and deal good damage in mellee. And meka dreads look so promising. Probably even more so than naughts cause they're cheaper, still super durable and fast (and look cooler imo).
But let's see what fw brings to the table in regards to stompas. GW might have followed the tradition of codex stompa being lackluster while fw stompa balancing on the edge of being broken good.
Is anyone else miffed that our battlewagon is only t7? It was one of our only armor 14 units. I feel like its durability is some situations has now dropped as a whole. I figured it would have been at least 8 possibly 9.
i know when it comes to say rear and side armor we had issues with its elongate profile but that made clever positioning of benefit. now to get the toughness we should have started with we have to take an upgrade that gimps it as a gunboat.
You can place a hard casing on your wagon to make it t8. It looses open-topped but if you're running a wagon as a transport for choppy stuff, that's what you should probably do.
Back to fortifications. So, a voidshield is 4++ for models wholly within 12'. For 190 points. Doesn't seem so great now.
Stompa
Meka
+ whatever else I can fit in at 1500
Thats my first list im going with
I think it's naught time! Stompa - i'm not so keen on for 900+ pts. But naughts are durable enough and deal good damage in mellee. And meka dreads look so promising. Probably even more so than naughts cause they're cheaper, still super durable and fast (and look cooler imo).
But let's see what fw brings to the table in regards to stompas. GW might have followed the tradition of codex stompa being lackluster while fw stompa balancing on the edge of being broken good.
Yeh, Im halfway through building a stompa out of my bits and its got LED's and stuff, so that thing is gona see the table But I do agree, I think its a little overpriced. for 900 points i'd take 3-4 meka-dred's.... 4 giant walkers mega-charging up the board... Ouch! I've magnetized, so when the FW stuff hits I can create some extra arms.
But yeh, Gorka's with a couple meka's, you get the KFF and have some serious melee potential. I can't workout which weapon loadouts are best, I feel like anti-vehicle can be done by melee, The gorka has the melee attack options, so probably better for killing infantry and smashing vehicles. But the meka can already do some work on vehicles with its rippa claws. I dont think keeping two rippa's for the extra attack is worth it. But maybe the Str 5 2D6 weapon? for piling on wounds on elite infantry?
Rereading the basic rules on pistols... For me, this gives Choppa boyz a definite edge over Shoota boyz.
<q> A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."</q>
So, if I have a unit of 30 boyz locked in with a unit. According to my reading of the rules above, a nearby unit of 30 boyz with pistols can fire into the scrum as long as it is the closest enemy unit.
It's highly unlikely something is gona stay locked in combat with your boyz for pistols to make any shots in mellee. Cause the enemy either dies, runs away or chops your boyz to bits.
It might only matter vs mellee armies with weak killiness. Like...i don't know, termi spam?
While the pistol shots while locked in combat are at 5+ to hit, they are attacks that have absolutely no down side and were not available before. And they already "gave us" the extra attack for having to cc weapons on the choppa special ability. So they are just free shooting attacks. nothing to write home about. nothing to scoff at either. MORE DAKKA WAAAAAAGH!
I think what he's saying is that pistols are better because it means you can shoot into the unit that's locked in combat with another unit that's about to charge.
Which is wrong. It says if you are within 1", then you can shoot your pistols at that unit. The "in such circumstances" basically means you have to satisfy the first condition, so you have to be locked in combat 'within 1 inch'. So no, you can't shoot pistols into an enemy unit locked in combat before charging
Has anyone tried 10x Meganobz in a Ard Case Wagon with a second transport carrying , Ghaz, Nob with banner and a weirdboy with warpath?
If all of the stars alligned would give you 60 Str 10 killsaw attacks hitting on 3s. Would need to roll really poorly to not deal 60+ wounds to any toughness.
My test rolls have it easily one rounding multiple land raiders in a turn or even a Stompa before it swings.
Also the Nob with warbanner says adds 1 to hit rolls.
Does this mean Ghaz and Deffrolla would autohit near it?
One of the lists im tinkering with.
All of the goodies.
Spoiler:
Ork 1999 --7CP--
Battallion Detachment -3CP-
HQ - Ghazghull Thraka - 215
         <Goff>
         -Twin Big Shoota -Kustom Klaw
HQ - Weirdboy - 62
         <Goff>
HQ - Big Mek on Warbike - 101
        <Goff>
         -KFF
Elite - Nob with Waaagh Banner - 79
          <Goff>
          -Kustom Shoota
Elite - MegaNobz x 6 - 441
          <Goff>
          -Boss Nob
          - Two Killsawz x 7
Troop - Boyz x 10 - 160
             <Goff>
             -Nob - Big Choppa
             -Trukk - Big Shoota - Wrekkin Ball
Troop - Boyz x 10 - 160
             <Goff>
             -Nob - Big Choppa
             -Trukk - Big Shoota - Wrekkin Ball
Troop - Boyz x 10 - 160
             <Goff>
             -Nob - Big Choppa
             -Trukk - Big Shoota - Wrekkin Ball
Troop - Boyz x 10 - 160
             <Goff>
             -Nob - Big Choppa
             -Trukk - Big Shoota - Wrekkin Ball
Heavy - Battle Wagon - 180
             <Goff>
             -Deff Rolla -Ard Case
Vanguard Detachment -1CP-
HQ - Boss Snikrot -69
        <Blood Axe>
Elite - Kommandoz x4 - 70
           <Blood Axe>
          -Burna x2
          -Nob - Power Klaw
Elite - Kommandoz x4 - 70
           <Blood Axe>
          -Burna x2
          -Nob - Power Klaw
Elite - Painboy - 72
          <Goff>
          -Urty Syringe -Kill Saw
          -Grot Orderly
In matched play rolls of 1 are auto fails for to hit and save rolls so even for guys who hit on a 2+ the WAAAGH banner wouldn't benefit them.
Personally it seems like a too many eggs in one basket situation, and while the meganobz are ded killy, you could probably spread out that damage instead since they're largely going to be overkill on most units. They also don't deal with screening units well.
koooaei wrote: So, a voidshield is 4++ for models wholly within 12'. For 190 points. Doesn't seem so great now.
Remember that you can choose which models make the save, so you can have half the unit in the bubble and assign all the hits to the ones with a better save. Seems like a fairly decent set-up for a big collection of mek gunz.
koooaei wrote: So, a voidshield is 4++ for models wholly within 12'. For 190 points. Doesn't seem so great now.
Remember that you can choose which models make the save, so you can have half the unit in the bubble and assign all the hits to the ones with a better save. Seems like a fairly decent set-up for a big collection of mek gunz.
I don't think it works like that. You can take casualties from the rear if you want though. Id have to check the rules for the VSG
Weazel wrote: Planning on running 8-10 Nobz. How do you feel about combi-skorchas? They cost as much as another Nob but they overcome the lackluster BS and might be useful in overwatch if you happen to catch a charge. Are they worth it or should I just use the points for another Nob?
I want to love Kombii weapons so bad! Just from a modeling perspective the thought of just attaching a scorches to the kombi shoota with some greenstuff rope or greenstuff "duct tape" is hilarious to me. I just wish they were cheaper!! 20 points is a lot. How many times will you fire that scorcha in 5 turns? 2 maybe three times? An extra nob will fight twice as many times as that. If I did Kombi weapons, I think rokkits with a couple ammo runts (which I will be taking anyways to eat wounds) could be quite effective. My first game the opponent had a ton of rhinos. And they didn't do a lot of damage but he would drop the unit inside hen use the rhinos to block me and tie up other units. Forcing them to fall back and I just didn't have enough rokkits to take them down fast enough. Volume rokkit fire is going to be helpful in a world of such tough transports.
No second opinion on skorchas? I'm inclined to agree that you're not going to get that many shots off before you're stuck in or wiped out. But on average you should kill a MEQ if you get to shoot at one, and they tend to cost about as much as the kombi-skorcha... soo it's not overpriced on that regard but it's not an autoinclude either I think.
10 unbuffed meganobz with a pk won't be able to kill a landraider in one go. Not telling about a knight. And they cost more than both.
I can't wrap my head around meganobz in 8-th. They're really not that killy for the points. If you compare the kiliness-per-points, regular choppa boyz deal ~20% more damage vs something like a rhino in mellee. Not telling about really killy stuff like tempestus scion comsquad (that you can now spam easilly) that's 3 times killier than a meganob. That's before facturing transports in.
I guess meganobz can be used as semi-durable things with large bases to try to eat overwatch and tie more units up in mellee. But they're not really all that killy. Basically anything else - other than grots and transports - is killier than meganobz point-for-point. Maybe as skorcha platforms? I don't know. They're really quite underwhelming now. I should probably convert them to kila kanz or something.
VSG just says models wholly within 12" of the shield (unless the shooter is also within the shield. Wound allocation rules in the BRB specify that you can allocate to models that are out of range or not visible to the shooter, so even if you're stretched out you should be ok as long as some models are within the shield. It doesn't confer to the entire unit like it used to, but the models within the shield itself can take the inv save.
3 bw with rollas 540
Ghaz 215
8 mega nobs 400
20 boys bc nob 129
20 boys bc nob 129
Banner nob 75
Painboy 70?? Can't remember
1558 I think? Ton points but with the buff from ghaz and banner, these 3 wagons full of gak should be a huge scary force whenever they slam into something. Could hit an entire gun line at once possibly. Enough room for plenty of other stuff as well. Plus you're only deploying 3 units? Should help get first turn. A large squad of stormboys with zag dropping in would help this as well. If you brought stormboys n zag should still have enough room for shooty stuff and obj grabbers (albeit somewhat limited).. I think stormboys x 30 plus zag is about 300 points? Leaves about 120 points for some guns and grots if you wanted to go that route, or could fit 2 wartrakk/buggy.
Would make deployment 3 units with 3 in reserve so almost guaranteed to go first even vs "elite" armies. We will have as many deployments as a "3 knight" list?
If you're just running one painboy on foot and you don't want the grot orderly (or killsaw), consider the Mad Dok for a few points more. Little better in combat, much more survivable.
More or less commenting on viability of manz. I think that they can be used but you really HAVE to support them with banner and ghaz? Which ups their cost and killiness. I imagine most people will just avoid those 3 wagons and backpedal as far as they can. Of course could get a weirdboy or 2 for the jump with spare points.
They seem so so costly but if you factor in buffs I think they may be more viable.. but everything we add to their killiness also makes them our enemies most likely want to avoid them and shoot them off board
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnU wrote: If you're just running one painboy on foot and you don't want the grot orderly (or killsaw), consider the Mad Dok for a few points more. Little better in combat, much more survivable.
Does he still go crazy and chase nearest unit in circles?
I tend to agree with the Mega armor nobs just not fitting in.
Even if you go all in with lots of mega nobs supported by ghaz, Maddoc, waaagh banner nob, kff mega big Mek and warpath weirdboy. You'd have an extremely durable Killy unit.
Unfortunately it's very expensive and slow as feth. That 4in movement means your opponent will run circles around you. 2+even with 6+fnp and 5++ kff. Isn't going to be that hard to deal with especially with smite spam lists
JohnU wrote: If you're just running one painboy on foot and you don't want the grot orderly (or killsaw), consider the Mad Dok for a few points more. Little better in combat, much more survivable.
Does he still go crazy and chase nearest unit in circles?
If there's no Orks within 3" and there's an enemy unit within 12" he'll attempt to charge it, but that's it.
The MANZ are slow but the transports are not, my plan was to dump 4/5 of all the transports out at start of turn two then suicide rush all the vehicles in to absorb overwatch/block off firing lanes/lock in combat
On release day (this weekend) they should go out automatically.
Used to love battle scribe, and I would gladly pay for a premium version... but the subscription model is garbage and I booted it off my phone the second I saw it.
I mean, it is a 'subscription model', yes - at $3 US, for a year of premium service. I've used Battlescribe so much, I was happy to throw them some dough.
I couldn't figure out this convoluted system of downloading files, syncing to dropbox. Nothing ever showed up in battlescribe.... I will either wait for a "warscroll builder" to emerge or stick to pen and paper.
On the topic of MANz. I just feel sad. I'm not sure they NEED Ghazzy to be effective. 100% need a WAAAGH! banner nob though. Thats not a huge upgrade in points. What upsets me (slightly hyperbolic) is that they went up in points. 14 points each. A unit of 3 are now a full MAN more expensive then before. OK..what did they gain? A wound in their profile. Big whoop so did terminators. The damage increase keeps them up to par with the buff to vehicle toughness. and character's increase to wound characteristics across the board. So they were brought up to par with everything, but went up in points? I will still use them (for feths sake they are $20 a model! and I have 9) because the models are great and they will thump some gitz.. but they FEEL underwhelming. Maybe because we rlied on them as a primary damage dealer and now they arent.
I'm intrigued with pairing them up with some burnas in a wagon (with ard case) instead of adding kombi scorchas to them for some weight in numbers, and some high(er) volume of attacks at lower AP.
Tankbusta Wagon The more I've thought, and thought about it. i really think a BW full of Tankbustas are going to be a regular in my lists. TB are so very good. Transports are so Very expensive. My 1st thought was 2 squads in trukks. But the key is bomb squigs. They are so good. So Very, Very good. And the rules for taking them plus the fact that they take a transport slot means you can only ever get 2 in a trukk.
A BW on the other hand can fit 5. I wish I could max it out at 6, but there isn't enough space. I am considering 10 TB + 4 BS + something else. What do you guys think is best for 6 slots. I'm leaning towards Nobz w/ BC.
Badrukk What are you guys thinking of Kaptain Badrukk. He seems really, really, really good. 96 points for 3 twin linked (ammo runts) super plasma shots seems pretty impressive. Am i missing some hidden weakness? If he is embarked on the same wagon as a unit of FG do they get his bonus? Do you guys think he makes FG work? I'm still pretty iffy why I'd want FG instead of TB. They are better at killing infantry, but I've got boyz for that, right? If I walk him behind a wagon until the TB in a wagon liquidate their BS, then he can hop in. It seems nuts, but might work.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I couldn't figure out this convoluted system of downloading files, syncing to dropbox. Nothing ever showed up in battlescribe.... I will either wait for a "warscroll builder" to emerge or stick to pen and paper..
BS should automatically update for everyone on Release day of 8th. No need for convoluted download and synch, just wait until Saturday, then do a normal "update"
tag8833 wrote: Tankbusta Wagon The more I've thought, and thought about it. i really think a BW full of Tankbustas are going to be a regular in my lists. TB are so very good. Transports are so Very expensive. My 1st thought was 2 squads in trukks. But the key is bomb squigs. They are so good. So Very, Very good. And the rules for taking them plus the fact that they take a transport slot means you can only ever get 2 in a trukk.
A BW on the other hand can fit 5. I wish I could max it out at 6, but there isn't enough space. I am considering 10 TB + 4 BS + something else. What do you guys think is best for 6 slots. I'm leaning towards Nobz w/ BC.
Badrukk What are you guys thinking of Kaptain Badrukk. He seems really, really, really good. 96 points for 3 twin linked (ammo runts) super plasma shots seems pretty impressive. Am i missing some hidden weakness? If he is embarked on the same wagon as a unit of FG do they get his bonus? Do you guys think he makes FG work? I'm still pretty iffy why I'd want FG instead of TB. They are better at killing infantry, but I've got boyz for that, right? If I walk him behind a wagon until the TB in a wagon liquidate their BS, then he can hop in. It seems nuts, but might work.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I couldn't figure out this convoluted system of downloading files, syncing to dropbox. Nothing ever showed up in battlescribe.... I will either wait for a "warscroll builder" to emerge or stick to pen and paper..
BS should automatically update for everyone on Release day of 8th. No need for convoluted download and synch, just wait until Saturday, then do a normal "update"
I was thinking also about running TankBustas in a BW, but instead of BC nobz i was thinking of either nobz with power stabbas (120pts) or kommandos, since you get 6 kommandos w/ 2 burnas, a nob with BC (63pts), I am leaning more towards the kommandos just because the value is so good, and my lists are really tight on points. But the downside it is your putting all of your anti-vehicle/larges in one spot, instead of having trukks spread out across the board making it harder to get flanked.
I haven't looked into Badrukk, but you do bring up an interesting idea.
Is a single 4+ To hit Twinlinked plasma gun in rapid fire range model really worth almost 100pts? I fail to see this as impressive.... he's nice and all like every special character but by no means amazing. I'm really annoyed his special ability is just another 1+ to hit reroll for a unit that can and should take 10 ammo runts. He really should have been 1+ to wound reroll and then flashgits would have been great vs higher toughness models.
The thing with ghaz is not the fact he is needed for mega nobs it's the fact his extra atk for every mega nob unit within 6in is like a 30% increase in damage from them.....and when your paying that amount of points just for a lot of powerklaw atks... you want as many reliable powerklaw atks as you can get.
You can do the same with warpath as well however only to a single unit and it's deniable.
tag8833 wrote: Tankbusta Wagon The more I've thought, and thought about it. i really think a BW full of Tankbustas are going to be a regular in my lists. TB are so very good. Transports are so Very expensive. My 1st thought was 2 squads in trukks. But the key is bomb squigs. They are so good. So Very, Very good. And the rules for taking them plus the fact that they take a transport slot means you can only ever get 2 in a trukk.
A BW on the other hand can fit 5. I wish I could max it out at 6, but there isn't enough space. I am considering 10 TB + 4 BS + something else. What do you guys think is best for 6 slots. I'm leaning towards Nobz w/ BC.
You might as well load a shooty unit with heavy weapons into any spare wagon space you've got (assuming the mobile fortress rule works as I think it should). Lootas are OK general purpose, Flash Gitz are excellent against heavy infantry and bikes.
tag8833 wrote: Badrukk What are you guys thinking of Kaptain Badrukk. He seems really, really, really good. 96 points for 3 twin linked (ammo runts) super plasma shots seems pretty impressive. Am i missing some hidden weakness? If he is embarked on the same wagon as a unit of FG do they get his bonus? Do you guys think he makes FG work? I'm still pretty iffy why I'd want FG instead of TB. They are better at killing infantry, but I've got boyz for that, right? If I walk him behind a wagon until the TB in a wagon liquidate their BS, then he can hop in. It seems nuts, but might work.
Pretty sure his buff doesn't work while he or the gitz are embarked, which kind of sucks because there's not much point to flash gitz without a wagon.
Here's a question?
If you had to choose between a weirdboy and nob w waagh banner which would you chose and why?
The weirdboy is cheaper, has a better melee atk, has a better range atk (smite), warpath +1 atk to a unit is better then +1 to hit (although you can likely get 2 units in range), and the weirdboy doesn't take a precious elite slot. However players can try to deny your powers if you are in range....
I'm kinda annoyed he can only take 1 ork power, that basically means you will never see anyone take eadbanger. And in my particular list I'd want him mostly for warpath however I will have so many boys he will blow himself up which is good if what you wanted is a super charged smite powered psyker but in that case I'd probably like a painboy by him to heal him up and I don't have the points for that.
It's in the brb, under transport section. Characters with aoe buffs don't work while embarked on the vehicle. This includes meks repairing the vehicles they are in ....yeahhhh. I am holding off on buying flash kids until there is an official games workshop FAQ about the mobile fortress rule. For now my local GW has ruled that mobile fortress ability does not extend it to its occupants. If an official FAQ changes this I will be buying the captain bad rock box a I am holding off on buying flash gets until there is an official games workshop FAQ about the mobile fortress rule. For now my local GW has ruled that mobile fortress ability does not extend to its occupants. If an official FAQ changes this I will be buying the captain badrukk box set set immediately.
What I like to do is to put the tank bustas in a battlewagon with for rockets on the wagon and sometimes even a Canon. That's 20 rokkit like shots a turn. Not including any bomb Squiggs. It's so much fun and does quite a bit of damage. Last game I had 15 lootas in about a wagon and it felt like a huge waste. Because it was just sitting in the backfield all game. So I'm either going to put the 15 in cover, or remove three and stick the 12 in a trukk.
If you want a hammer unit to fight big stuff I really think you need to be going with nobs with killsaws. So with rough math, (4+, 3+, no save, D6w) you are doing 3.5 wounds per nob with saw; I think.
Really feel like this is the way to go for a hammer unit. Gonna test out 10 nobz with 3-5 saws (rest stabbas) in some sort of wagon or truck.
Also dont feel the need to buy trucks or transports for bustas. They do fine on foot. just make sure the rest of the list is also causing problems.
Any1 know where I can get the old rocket packs for stormboyz before they got their new models or something like it?
Question, whats the min size for a group of nobz? I see on the index under number "this unit contains 1 boss nob and 4 nobz" but then under the points section under nobz, the unit size is listed 3-10.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: It's in the brb, under transport section. Characters with aoe buffs don't work while embarked on the vehicle. This includes meks repairing the vehicles they are in ....yeahhhh. I am holding off on buying flash kids until there is an official games workshop FAQ about the mobile fortress rule. For now my local GW has ruled that mobile fortress ability does not extend it to its occupants. If an official FAQ changes this I will be buying the captain bad rock box a I am holding off on buying flash gets until there is an official games workshop FAQ about the mobile fortress rule. For now my local GW has ruled that mobile fortress ability does not extend to its occupants. If an official FAQ changes this I will be buying the captain badrukk box set set immediately.
What I like to do is to put the tank bustas in a battlewagon with for rockets on the wagon and sometimes even a Canon. That's 20 rokkit like shots a turn. Not including any bomb Squiggs. It's so much fun and does quite a bit of damage. Last game I had 15 lootas in about a wagon and it felt like a huge waste. Because it was just sitting in the backfield all game. So I'm either going to put the 15 in cover, or remove three and stick the 12 in a trukk.
Very unlikely will the FAQ allow buffs from vehicles, that would change several units in almost every army and would create HUGE bubbles.
Regarding the BustaWagon...don't forget that for each TB Unit you get 1 tankbusta bomb up close (which is likely because the BW has 12 inch move). You end up with under-utilized squigs with 3 units. The tankbusta bomb could potentially deal 18 wounds... with 4 units that gives us a maximum of 72 wounds from those 4 17-point models (obviously far less in practice.)
owni wrote: Question, whats the min size for a group of nobz? I see on the index under number "this unit contains 1 boss nob and 4 nobz" but then under the points section under nobz, the unit size is listed 3-10.
It's five IIRC, which is up from... three, since last edition?
owni wrote: Question, whats the min size for a group of nobz? I see on the index under number "this unit contains 1 boss nob and 4 nobz" but then under the points section under nobz, the unit size is listed 3-10.
There are several discrepancies like that. Deffkoptas. Runtherds. As a general rule it seems most people are going with the dataslate over the points list.
Dr.Duck wrote: If you want a hammer unit to fight big stuff I really think you need to be going with nobs with killsaws. So with rough math, (4+, 3+, no save, D6w) you are doing 3.5 wounds per nob with saw; I think.
owni wrote: Question, whats the min size for a group of nobz? I see on the index under number "this unit contains 1 boss nob and 4 nobz" but then under the points section under nobz, the unit size is listed 3-10.
There are several discrepancies like that. Deffkoptas. Runtherds. As a general rule it seems most people are going with the dataslate over the points list.
Rumours are Saturday has a day 1 errata/FAQ.
I would also say the point sheet will be the official listing and the data slate is the rules as the point sheet was suppose to be a living document and constantly being updated.
Did anyone catch frontline's Ork/Tau game tonight? Let's just say it wasn't Reece's best efforts
One thing that came up was the correct unit accounting of ork artillery...apparently Reece had never looked at those rules (???)
I had assumed that each gun AND each grot unit were separate units. This means that 5 lobbas would count as TEN units for killpoints (and wasted wound allocation.)
Reece couldn't bring his head around to that, but he couldn't figure out how multi-toughness models in a unit were treated, since that rule no longer exists.
Expect him to talk about this in the next couple of days. I think he was going to send an email in to his contacts at GW to see if they can FAQ it.
Regarding the game, it was pretty much a stinker for orks, which was too bad because I wanted to learn how to beat Tau. I already know how to lose...
Hello guys, I just noticed that you "nominate one of your models to be your warlord" So you could have a stompa or very specific grot as your warlord.
Though they will gain warlord trait only if they are <Character>. I think this will make distraction stompa bit better.
In theory you could have a Fortification as your warlord. Until errata fixes things this is borked.
JimOnMars wrote: One thing that came up was the correct unit accounting of ork artillery...apparently Reece had never looked at those rules (???)
I had assumed that each gun AND each grot unit were separate units. This means that 5 lobbas would count as TEN units for killpoints (and wasted wound allocation.)
Reece couldn't bring his head around to that, but he couldn't figure out how multi-toughness models in a unit were treated, since that rule no longer exists.
Expect him to talk about this in the next couple of days. I think he was going to send an email in to his contacts at GW to see if they can FAQ it.
Interestingly Enough that was my initial read too (5 mek gunz = 10 units), and I actually brought that exact thing up during one of their streams, and he didn't really understand my question. I've also brought this example up several times when the discussion of using GW missions for tournaments has been discussed. "Opponent A is playing 4 Wraith Knights Opponent B has a squad of 6 Mek Gunz. Mission is Kill points, is there a reason to roll dice?" So far Reece has been a defender of using the KP mission in tourney settings, but I imagine that once he gets some more table time with 8th ed army builds he will come around.
It would be nice if GW could clean up the rules for Mek gunz / big gunz. Also, be nice if they could either Fix the KP mission or just get rid of it altogether. Banish it to casual play (Which they frustratingly insist on calling "Narrative"), so we don't have to worry about it in matched play. One of the things that always frustrates me is GW Kool Aide drinkers that insist any non-rulebook army comp or mission is verboden. I was hoping (though not expecting) that this would be the edition where we could placate that sort, but as soon as I saw the updated EW and Maelstrom missions, I knew that wasn't to be.
One similar thing is the 9" entire unit restriction on the KFF. Apparently they playtested it so that only 1 model had to be in, and the entire unit got the save. Rob talked about it on GW's live feed. The rule changed towards the very end of playtesting. I understand why they felt the need to change it, but it sure would have been nice if they'd changed it to the way they do Void Shields. Speaking of Fortifications.
The plasma Obliterator and Firestorm Redoubt. Both seem like the best way to utilize Lootas. They are more durable than a battle wagon, and most importantly, if an enemy is engaging them you can still shoot out. I'm eyeing the double BC FSR as a particularly good choice. The plasma Obliterator is awesome too. What do you guys think? A bastion is also a good choice, it just bring a little less offensive punch.
gungo wrote: Here's a question?
If you had to choose between a weirdboy and nob w waagh banner which would you chose and why?
The weirdboy is cheaper, has a better melee atk, has a better range atk (smite), warpath +1 atk to a unit is better then +1 to hit (although you can likely get 2 units in range), and the weirdboy doesn't take a precious elite slot. However players can try to deny your powers if you are in range....
I'm kinda annoyed he can only take 1 ork power, that basically means you will never see anyone take eadbanger. And in my particular list I'd want him mostly for warpath however I will have so many boys he will blow himself up which is good if what you wanted is a super charged smite powered psyker but in that case I'd probably like a painboy by him to heal him up and I don't have the points for that.
They both are good choices but they serve different roles. Weirdboyz are basically cheap HQs that buff the boyz, so they're useful mostly if you plan to use mobs of 30 boyz and you need 1-2 HQs without wasting too many points. The nob with waaagh banner is a nice buff for boyz but is a great bonus for big choppas, killsaws and power klaws, that's why he should run near units that have a lot of those close combat weapons. But if you have the points, and the models, you can also spread some of them in a green tide list.
I'm using the nob with banner in a list with 2 BWs, one with ghaz and 18 boyz, the other one with 12 boyz, 6 nobz with big choppas, the nob with the banner and grotsnik. Make sure the banner allows ghaz and/or a warboss with p.klaw to hit on 2s But also a unit of nobz with big choppas that hit on 2s is quite deadly. The boyz are good even with a WS 3+ if they are in huge numbers.
Another issue is how actually vehicles measure los. Cause last game we had a basilisk that was in cover and only sticked it's tread out a bit. But as it could see one of the boyz out of cover...with it's tread, boyz didn't recieve cover from a heavy bolter.
Also, there was a situation where a basilisk was closer to boyz but rotated a bit and it's gun ended up closer to the boss than to boyz. And as there are no more definitions of hulls and stuff, the opponent can measure from anywhere. So, vehicles with long guns have an advantage here as they can more easilly manage closest range and cover. It's quite easy to be hidden in cover and still have a tiny part sticking out to measure los from there and deny cover to the opponent.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I couldn't figure out this convoluted system of downloading files, syncing to dropbox. Nothing ever showed up in battlescribe.... I will either wait for a "warscroll builder" to emerge or stick to pen and paper.
On the topic of MANz. I just feel sad. I'm not sure they NEED Ghazzy to be effective. 100% need a WAAAGH! banner nob though. Thats not a huge upgrade in points. What upsets me (slightly hyperbolic) is that they went up in points. 14 points each. A unit of 3 are now a full MAN more expensive then before. OK..what did they gain? A wound in their profile. Big whoop so did terminators. The damage increase keeps them up to par with the buff to vehicle toughness. and character's increase to wound characteristics across the board. So they were brought up to par with everything, but went up in points? I will still use them (for feths sake they are $20 a model! and I have 9) because the models are great and they will thump some gitz.. but they FEEL underwhelming. Maybe because we rlied on them as a primary damage dealer and now they arent.
I'm intrigued with pairing them up with some burnas in a wagon (with ard case) instead of adding kombi scorchas to them for some weight in numbers, and some high(er) volume of attacks at lower AP.
Manz are more reliable now. Move Run and charge +3" for disembarking from a wagon. Plus a command points can be burned on a freak failed 3 or 4" charge. The burnas are expensive and the claws are going to do all of the heavy lifting.
Manz are more reliable now. Move Run and charge +3" for disembarking from a wagon. Plus a command points can be burned on a freak failed 3 or 4" charge. The burnas are expensive and the claws are going to do all of the heavy lifting.
'ere we go allows to re-roll failed charges (or even one die of a failed charge if you want). But reliable doesn't mean good. Reliably mediocre. Klaws are not bad but the total price is just too high for points. Meganob needs to be chopping tactical marines for 4 phases to start paying off. In comparison, a choppa boy without a +1 attack buff needs 1.5 phases. And pays off in one phase if he gets a +1 attack bonus.
Crowley wrote: Hello guys, I just noticed that you "nominate one of your models to be your warlord" So you could have a stompa or very specific grot as your warlord.
Though they will gain warlord trait only if they are <Character>. I think this will make distraction stompa bit better.
In theory you could have a Fortification as your warlord. Until errata fixes things this is borked.
I nominate our new Ork saviour as warlord: Bomb Squig
A more serious question would be, is a Nob in a 30 man squad harder to get to for Slay the Warlord than say a Biker Boss (assuming you don't care about the warlord trait)?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: Did anyone catch frontline's Ork/Tau game tonight? Let's just say it wasn't Reece's best efforts
One thing that came up was the correct unit accounting of ork artillery...apparently Reece had never looked at those rules (???)
I had assumed that each gun AND each grot unit were separate units. This means that 5 lobbas would count as TEN units for killpoints (and wasted wound allocation.)
Reece couldn't bring his head around to that, but he couldn't figure out how multi-toughness models in a unit were treated, since that rule no longer exists.
Expect him to talk about this in the next couple of days. I think he was going to send an email in to his contacts at GW to see if they can FAQ it.
Regarding the game, it was pretty much a stinker for orks, which was too bad because I wanted to learn how to beat Tau. I already know how to lose...
Did they roll the killpoints mission? I told him not to roll the killpoints mission.
Sure it's only one mission out of the lot, but Big Gun spam becomes a big liability if you get it. On the other hand, Tau drones also count as separate units for KPs.
so a couple observations after more games. biker boyz were pretty good last edition, one of our only real options, now with str 3 wounding on 5's not 6's that extra toughness seems less worth it. maybe I will be proven wrong, but ork and space marines bikes took a hit and points do not seem to reflect it. the lack of attacks beyond a normal bike for a boy was offset by being wounded on 6's often in close combat outside of marines or necrons.
nob bikers still do work though the more attacks and big choppas/ pk mean the lack of volume is not as important as their strength of attacks.
I'd just use the extra supa shootas and the tellyport blastas myself. The KFF is pricey and can be hard to use properly with the flyer movement rules. The amount of shots from the mega-kannon could be suicidal for the plane. If 1's don't scare you, that is a lot of plasma shots and a little cheaper.
JohnU wrote: I'd just use the extra supa shootas and the tellyport blastas myself. The KFF is pricey and can be hard to use properly with the flyer movement rules. The amount of shots from the mega-kannon could be suicidal for the plane. If 1's don't scare you, that is a lot of plasma shots and a little cheaper.
I don't have the leaks, been too busy at home and at work to find and analyze stuff. I ask you, please, elaborate on this large quantity of suicidal plasma, and perhaps how Tellypotty blasta is gonna work this Ed?
Each mega-kannon (there are two) is Heavy D3, S8, AP -3, Damage D3, 36", rolls to hit of 1 cause a mortal wound to the jet.
Tellyportas are Assault D3, S8, AP-2, Damage 1, 24". If a model suffers unsaved wounds but doesn't die, roll a D6 at the end of the phase, if the die roll is higher than the model's wounds they die.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule says Wounds Characteristic, so I'm not sure if that means their remaining wounds or the actual number listed on their data sheet.
At just a hair over 100 points for a dakka jet with 6 supa shootas.. Are they worth it? If they target the same squad (lets use marines in open as example) thats 18 shots. 9 hits. 6 wounds and 3 dead smurfs.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: At just a hair over 100 points for a dakka jet with 6 supa shootas.. Are they worth it? If they target the same squad (lets use marines in open as example) thats 18 shots. 9 hits. 6 wounds and 3 dead smurfs.
From a theory hammer point of view, I'm really liking the Dakkajet. It's cheap, and fairly killy.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: At just a hair over 100 points for a dakka jet with 6 supa shootas.. Are they worth it? If they target the same squad (lets use marines in open as example) thats 18 shots. 9 hits. 6 wounds and 3 dead smurfs.
More than just a hair, though- 10/shoota leaves you at 148 points for 6, right? I still think it's a solid deal, but worth noting.
Speaking of Dakkajets, how do y'all think they compare vs a Blitza-Bomma? The potential of Blitzas are high but I worry that with the one-shot nature of the bomb it'd be a bit too much variance.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: At just a hair over 100 points for a dakka jet with 6 supa shootas.. Are they worth it? If they target the same squad (lets use marines in open as example) thats 18 shots. 9 hits. 6 wounds and 3 dead smurfs.
More than just a hair, though- 10/shoota leaves you at 148 points for 6, right? I still think it's a solid deal, but worth noting.
>_< Still thinking in 7e. Forgot you have to pay for the 4 it is already armed with. Ok so almost 150 points. Less worth it then I initially had envisioned.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: At just a hair over 100 points for a dakka jet with 6 supa shootas.. Are they worth it? If they target the same squad (lets use marines in open as example) thats 18 shots. 9 hits. 6 wounds and 3 dead smurfs.
More than just a hair, though- 10/shoota leaves you at 148 points for 6, right? I still think it's a solid deal, but worth noting.
>_< Still thinking in 7e. Forgot you have to pay for the 4 it is already armed with. Ok so almost 150 points. Less worth it then I initially had envisioned.
I will concur with Daisy here, even at 148 it's a solid flyer with a charmingly appropriate amount of Dakka
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule says Wounds Characteristic, so I'm not sure if that means their remaining wounds or the actual number listed on their data sheet.
I also have wondered about this. I'm almost entirely certain that it means remaining wounds, not total. The weaker a unit is, the more susceptible it is to tellyportin'.
JohnU wrote: I like that the Dakkajet can engage most types of targets at least reasonably well.
Not sure what Boom Bomms are good at targeting. Maybe vehicle squadrons (are there many of those around anymore?) or small MEQ squads in cover?
You've got it exactly right.
The big challenge with the blitza bomma is availability of targets- ideally, you want a 10-man unit of 1-wound 3+ armor sitting in cover for 2+. Against those targets, you are INCREDIBLY efficient: 10 dice, on a 4+ a model dies. I played a game vs chaos, and took out 6 possessed followed by 3 more from moral with a single bomb, it was glorious.
But against other targets, say with lower model count, higher wounds, etc. it's probably worse than a dakkajet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for fun comparisons, to match the reliability of those bombs in damaging MEQs in cover, orks would need a Heavy 36 S8 AP-2 weapon. (36 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 saves).
Obviously that's ideal conditions, but neat thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule says Wounds Characteristic, so I'm not sure if that means their remaining wounds or the actual number listed on their data sheet.
I also have wondered about this. I'm almost entirely certain that it means remaining wounds, not total. The weaker a unit is, the more susceptible it is to tellyportin'.
I think so too, I had just brushed over that the first time I looked at the entry and it threw me off.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule says Wounds Characteristic, so I'm not sure if that means their remaining wounds or the actual number listed on their data sheet.
I also have wondered about this. I'm almost entirely certain that it means remaining wounds, not total. The weaker a unit is, the more susceptible it is to tellyportin'.
I think so too, I had just brushed over that the first time I looked at the entry and it threw me off.
Unfortunately I think they mean characteristics, more wounds characteristic being bigger things and harder to teleport...also it says characteristic.
I think they mean remaining wounds. As otherwise its basically useless vs anything with more than 6 wounds. And the fact it says at the end of the phase.
If you were testing vs their base wound characteristics there would be no reason for you to test at the end of the phase, as the characteristic is static and you can effectively test as soon as you wound. But due to the fact its saying; wait until you have finalised their remaining wound count, then roll D6 and see if it is instantly dead.
Im not saying 100% thats what its saying, but from the way you play the rules out and the way they've implied the usage, suggests to me that its remaining wounds.
Secondly,
Wound charactistics change, as do other characteristics. So Wound characteristic is not actually static. As seen by walker stats changing as the wound characteristic decreases. Which means that wound count actually does decrease. Just it would be silly to have to actually mark it down. So regardless, even if you test against the targets characteristic then you still test against the remaining. Let me give an example;
Stompa gets reduced to 6 wounds
You check its stats, the wound is a *, you check its move etc..
Right now, at this point, technically its Wound characteristic is 6, according to the *
So when rolling the teleporta you would need a 6 to remove it, well i think you need to roll >wounds, but you get my point
So I feel this implies wound characteristic changes. Another example, meka-dred, it has like 4 attacks and +1 attack if you have 2 rippa claws. Now lets say there was an ability which tested against attack characteristic. You wouldnt test against 4 if it had 2 rippa claws, you'd test against 5. Because the attack stat has increased. Ergo, its not static.
SemperMortis wrote: What units can deepstrike/outflank/infiltrate and do Turn 1 Assaults?
Stormboyz
Kommandos
Deff Koptas
Buggies/Trakks
What else?
I didn't think Stormboyz could? I thought they simply had much better movement.
(I cant access the leaked 8e Orks, the google drive link appears to have been taken down - so I cant confirm)
And there will probably be some FW stuff that can? otherwise I dont remember there being anything else.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
If this is the case, then a wagon is really only useful for transporting Melee focused units with an ard case. The killkannon is overcosted. Hardly worth it. Zzap gun, lobba and kannon all not worth it. So... what a waste of a rule.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
If this is the case, then a wagon is really only useful for transporting Melee focused units with an ard case. The killkannon is overcosted. Hardly worth it. Zzap gun, lobba and kannon all not worth it. So... what a waste of a rule.
You hit the nail on the head. The heavy weapons a Battlewagon can take are Zzap Gunz 18pts for 1 shot weapon at BS2. Lobba, 18pts for D6 shots at S5 no AP value and 1 damage, can ignore LOS though. (D6 at BS2 averages 1 - 1.3 hits a turn). Kill Kannon, 27pts for D6 S7 AP-2 2 damage. And finally a Kannon which for 15pts has 2 firing modes D6 S4 shots no AP 1 damage and 1 S8 shot -2 AP and D6 damage.
In other words, NOBODY is going to take heavy weapons on this thing because its already over priced, has terrible Ballistic skill with no way of buffing it and is far better as a transport in every way imaginable. And before the argument goes to "well if you had some extra points you could...." No! Take those points and put them somewhere else. Hell, a hardcase is probably the best investment for the battlewagon and a Deff Rolla.
And for the Stormboyz thing, I was thinking of the formation for Zagstruk that allowed him and some Stormboyz to deep strike my bad
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
That's the thing with bespoke rules, though - it could very well apply to a Speeder but not to a Battlewagon. It's possible they were trying to prevent an abuse of that rule that's specific to the Marine codex. I could see some potentially gross things being done with that rule by equipping the passengers with flamers, for example (though I admit I don't know Marines well enough to say).
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
Well if the rule on the landspeeder specifically says that it doesn't apply to passengers and the rule on the battlewagon doesn't. Isn't that just more proof that the Mobile Fortress DOES apply to passengers?
On a completely unrelated note. I am thinking that "Big Gunz" are going to be seriously good this edition. Everyone loves the KMK and people think the Bubble Chukka is neat and everything but look at the damage potential from a unit of 6 Big Gunz armed with Kannonz.
Against a T7 vehicle
6 Kannonz at BS3 hits 3 times at S8, has a -2 AP modifier and does D6 damage. Against a Vehicle with 3+ armor you will get 2 shots through and If your average roll for D6 is 3-4 then in a single shooting phase you would on average put out 7 Wounds.
6 Big Gunz with Kannonz aren't exactly cheap mind you, coming in at 162pts.
For a Comparison, the KMK in a 6 gun battery costs 288pts. Average 7 shots for 2 gunz makes it 21 shots total which averages 10 Hits at -3 AP and D3 Damage. Against a T7 vehicle with 3+ armor you are going to wound 7ish times the armor saves 1 shot so you inflict on average 12 wounds a turn. In the process of doing this though you will suffer roughly 3.5 Mortal Wounds from rolling 1s to hit. And I don't think Grot gunnerz can take the hit for you anymore.
The only downside in that scenario between the two gunz? survivability.
Mek Gunz have TWICE the number of wounds as Big Gunz, but more importantly, Mek Gunz have 5 Grot gunners to use as shields compared to Big Gunz who have 2.
But, since I would want those guys to be hidden in cover the entire game and since I can take 3 units of Big Gunz compared to 2 units of KMKs for about the same price I think I will stick with Big Gunz.
A further comparison. For 8pts more then the 162 for 6 Kannonz you could get 10 Lootas
For them they would hit 7 times on average (average 2 shots per gun) at S7 with -1 AP and 2 damage standard. So against a 3+ Vehicle with T7 you are going to hit 7 times, Wound 3-4 times on average, the armor save would save 1-2 . So on the upper end you are going to get maybe 4-6 wounds against that vehicle. And Lootas are even less durable then Big Gunz, though they can at least get in a Wagon.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.
So, here's a question. I played a game where I wounded a target in overwatch with a tellyport blasta, and I rolled higher than its wound characteristic, and it was removed.
But the tellyport blasta says you roll to see if it dies at the end of the phase. Does that mean the target would have been able to charge and make CC attacks, and then potentially be slain at the end of the charge phase? That sounds really dumb, if so.
Kap'n Krump wrote: So, here's a question. I played a game where I wounded a target in overwatch with a tellyport blasta, and I rolled higher than its wound characteristic, and it was removed.
But the tellyport blasta says you roll to see if it dies at the end of the phase. Does that mean the target would have been able to charge and make CC attacks, and then potentially be slain at the end of the charge phase? That sounds really dumb, if so.
Charging and Fighting are two different phases so you're good.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.
What? That makes no sense. Bespoke rules means rules are seperate.
For instance mad doc super cybork body does not have the restriction "this doesn't stack with doc tools" unlike every other cybork body rule. So it stands to reason that every wound mad doc receives will have 2 seperate fnp type saves for every wound.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.
What? That makes no sense. Bespoke rules means rules are seperate.
For instance mad doc super cybork body does not have the restriction "this doesn't stack with doc tools" unlike every other cybork body rule. So it stands to reason that every wound mad doc receives will have 2 seperate fnp type saves for every wound.
You misunderstand; If the speeder says the passangers dont benefit, but the battle wagon does not say the same... Then it stands to reason that the battlewagons passangers benefit from its rule that allows it to ignore movement.
What they both say under Open-Topped is that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model (BW or Speeder) also applies to the passengers. The not being able to shoot while falling back or if enemies are within 1" are just presented as examples.
In the BW's case I think it would be fair to count the Mobile Fortress rule as a modifier and so it would apply to the passengers.
I agree. I think that is the intended ruling. Unfortunatley for me, my shop has made an "official" ruling and stated that is not how it will be played. So for now only manz, nobz and burnas will be riding in the wagon. Oh that and my standard "rokkit wagon" (15 tankbustas, bomb squigs and 4x rokkits on the wagon)
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
Well if the rule on the landspeeder specifically says that it doesn't apply to passengers and the rule on the battlewagon doesn't. Isn't that just more proof that the Mobile Fortress DOES apply to passengers?
My thoughts also
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnU wrote: What they both say under Open-Topped is that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model (BW or Speeder) also applies to the passengers. The not being able to shoot while falling back or if enemies are within 1" are just presented as examples.
In the BW's case I think it would be fair to count the Mobile Fortress rule as a modifier and so it would apply to the passengers.
Seems like this + the different wording of speeder rules which specifies they don't get the bonus, compared to bw which omits any text saying they don't get the mobile fortress bonus.. and if by raw of open topped vehicles....
The wording for Open-Topped is the same for both the Speeder and the BW, the only difference is the BW has Mobile Fortress and the Speeder doesn't have any other rules (besides Explode)
@Sal4m4nd3r Seems like you need a new shop, one in greener pastures :Choppa:
To me, it's quite clear that the -1 is a modifier, and is thus ignored by both the Battlewagon and the passengers; that said, I'm unable to find specific ruling that says the "-1 to hit for moving Heavy Weapons" is a modifier... maybe it'll turn up somewhere. I mean, it's a -1 to the "hit-roll", not to the firers BS; if that's not a modifier, what else could it be? Mobile Fortress says this -1 is ignored, and Open Topped says it's shared to the passengers.
Until then, we await a GWFAQ... they better not mess this up, lol.
It's kind of the entire point of an open-topped Battlewagon; and that's not just the Ork in me saying that; it's just something that makes sense from a design perspective.
SemperMortis wrote: Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.
It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.
That's the thing with bespoke rules, though - it could very well apply to a Speeder but not to a Battlewagon. It's possible they were trying to prevent an abuse of that rule that's specific to the Marine codex. I could see some potentially gross things being done with that rule by equipping the passengers with flamers, for example (though I admit I don't know Marines well enough to say).
The land speeder is a bad comparison, because it calls out what they can't do. A good comparison would be the IG tanks with the extended firing deck rule.
For the open topped rule it states any restrictions or modification that apply to this model apply to the units shooting.
Being able to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty is a modification, as such it extends to the passenger s as per the RAW of the open topped rule. Just like extended firing deck for some AM vehicles.
fe40k wrote: @tag8833: The second one; 5 lobbas+grots = 10 units (5 - 1 gun units; 5 - 2 man grot units).
Look up the rules for Thunderfire Cannons, replacing Single Techmarine with "2 grots".
Good. That is the way i've been playing it.
How about the rules for shooting at the gretchin crew. Are they shielded by any unit or only the gunz?
I know this rule makes Mek gunz a kill point hemorrhaging jugular, but it also kinda makes them more durable in a way, because it is harder to completely kill a unit. They are quit an interesting backfield objective camper.
fe40k wrote: @tag8833: The second one; 5 lobbas+grots = 10 units (5 - 1 gun units; 5 - 2 man grot units).
Look up the rules for Thunderfire Cannons, replacing Single Techmarine with "2 grots".
Good. That is the way i've been playing it.
How about the rules for shooting at the gretchin crew. Are they shielded by any unit or only the gunz?
I know this rule makes Mek gunz a kill point hemorrhaging jugular, but it also kinda makes them more durable in a way, because it is harder to completely kill a unit. They are quit an interesting backfield objective camper.
Yes, but it will encourage multi-weapon units shooting at lobbas to shoot each weapon separately to avoid wound wastage. Sad but true...anything shooting at orktillery is going to take a lot of game time.
I agree, the way the rules read, models with Heavy weapons embarked on an Open-Topped Battlewagon do not have a penalty to shooting if the BW moves, due to the way Mobile Fortress and Open Topped interact.
)
with a killsaw in there.
Thats what got me upset. But me and opponent were cool. Luckily they was lootas inside and they didnt need to move 
