xlDuke wrote: Seems like a good plan to me but I think that stratagem is only for Speed Freeks units rather than Evil Sunz units. Units like the new buggies can have both those keywords but I don't think Trukks will be Speed Freeks, sadly.
Why wouldn't they be? You can only use the strat on 1 unit so it would not be overpowered. I thought I read somewhere that all vehicle will have it. Bikes got it why wouldn't trukks.
If KMKs are still one-unit-wonders, then rerolling one hit, wound and damage roll PER KANNON kicks bad moons into the dust!
It's pretty awesome for boyz mobz too - 6++ at all times and the PK can use those re-rolls for almost guaranteed damage against heavies.
It'll almost certainly be worth throwing a single rokkit launcha in each mob too just to use those re-rolls and get a far higher chance of causing some stray damage to a vehicle somewhere.
I was liking these guys for green tide even before I knew they had THREE re-rolls per shooting/ fight phase.
I'm willing to bet that 'Dis is ours, zog off' is the ork obsec rule. Casual army-wide obsec on infantry units is not a bad buff either to throw in there.
The stratagem also is not bad. Re-rolling wound rolls against a vehicle is good. If a pesky knight gallant kills a mob and gets charged by a fresh choppa mob, on average it would take 8 wounds from just the choppas (never mind the PK). Then of course you can activate them again for more CP...
Yeah, I'm going deathskulls I think. Maybe with an evil suns deep strike bomb of some sort to mix things up where my enemy is weak.
If KMKs are still one-unit-wonders, then rerolling one hit, wound and damage roll PER KANNON kicks bad moons into the dust!
It's pretty awesome for boyz mobz too - 6++ at all times and the PK can use those re-rolls for almost guaranteed damage against heavies.
It'll almost certainly be worth throwing a single rokkit launcha in each mob too just to use those re-rolls and get a far higher chance of causing some stray damage to a vehicle somewhere.
I was liking these guys for green tide even before I knew they had THREE re-rolls per shooting/ fight phase.
I'm willing to bet that 'Dis is ours, zog off' is the ork obsec rule. Casual army-wide obsec on infantry units is not a bad buff either to throw in there.
The stratagem also is not bad. Re-rolling wound rolls against a vehicle is good. If a pesky knight gallant kills a mob and gets charged by a fresh choppa mob, on average it would take 8 wounds from just the choppas (never mind the PK). Then of course you can activate them again for more CP...
Yeah, I'm going deathskulls I think. Maybe with an evil suns deep strike bomb of some sort to mix things up where my enemy is weak.
Deathskull Meganobz... with 6++ and Objective Secured.
What was that Mob Up rule again? Smoosh two units of Deffskull MANz into one big mob and buff 'em from there... like the Death Guard Terminator thing I've run up against. Good thing I have more than 30 MANz already.
Plus to ALWAYS be able to re-roll a Single to hit AND ALSO re-roll a to wound roll AND ALSO re-roll a variable Damage roll (Shooting: Kombi-Rokkit and Close Combat: Killsaws ... I'm looking in your direction).
Easy to field too, just slap some blue paint that says 'Mine Now!' on previously-other-Klanz Mega Armor.
One Warboss in Mega Armor, two units of MANz, and a unit of Tankbustas to walk in the middle of the mob and shoot out, a nice elite detachment there.
xlDuke wrote: Seems like a good plan to me but I think that stratagem is only for Speed Freeks units rather than Evil Sunz units. Units like the new buggies can have both those keywords but I don't think Trukks will be Speed Freeks, sadly.
Why wouldn't they be? You can only use the strat on 1 unit so it would not be overpowered. I thought I read somewhere that all vehicle will have it. Bikes got it why wouldn't trukks.
Because they don¨'t have "speedfreak" keyword. Nor are battlewagons. So why? Lack keyword. No keyword, no strategem. That strategem is good for bikes and nob bikes but that's about it. As no transport has required keyword you are left with the new buggies as vehicles and one tank that's not super dangerous just ain't worth it when enemy can shoot at another unit instead. You need to use it to unit opponent CANNOT ignore. So due to keywords only options are 12 bikes or big unit of nob bikes(assuming nob bikes have that keyword either)
However, I think that people are overestimating them a little bit, at least for 2 of the 3 parts.
6++ is nice but really isn't much. There aren't many guns that would ignore your regular save completely leaving you with just the invul. Boyz are dying to bolters and lasguns and their multishot equivalents. a 6++ doesn't help much, since they are usually getting a 6+ anyway... Similarly, its true that MANZ are dying to high AP weaponry, but seldom is it so high that your 2+ becomes less than a 6+. Thats pretty much only meltaguns. against plasma/lascannons and rokkits it does nothing.
Similarly, how many times does objective secured help you? Its hard to imagine lootas or tankbustas holding a contested objective? It might seem like they are either on an uncontested one or they are dead, since they aren't the sturdiest of units. The only winners on that last one are MANZ, who do want to be in thick with things fighting over objectives.
It certainly does reward MSU style play though to maximze those rerolls. It looks quite strong on vehicles or deffdreads for example, who can sometimes get rerolls in both the shooting and combat phase.
I think for big boyz units, either the 6+++ or the extra movement will probably win out.
The rerolls on individual artillery are just bonkers. rerolling hit, wound AND damage on each and every gun, for free? Obviously GW was thinking boyz or lootas here, not mek guns.
I suspect this will get nerfed to be infantry only.
JimOnMars wrote: The rerolls on individual artillery are just bonkers. rerolling hit, wound AND damage on each and every gun, for free? Obviously GW was thinking boyz or lootas here, not mek guns.
I suspect this will get nerfed to be infantry only.
I've been painting blue stripes on my KMK since the kulturs were leaked, and back then it was leaked as one single reroll. But one of each thing? No brainer, its 100% better than badmoons for artillery.
Ya it’s better then badmoons... you might have a higher chance at gets hot on your morkanaut but it’s worth it for the extra wound and damage rolls and invulnerable....
JimOnMars wrote: The rerolls on individual artillery are just bonkers. rerolling hit, wound AND damage on each and every gun, for free? Obviously GW was thinking boyz or lootas here, not mek guns.
I suspect this will get nerfed to be infantry only.
I've been painting blue stripes on my KMK since the kulturs were leaked, and back then it was leaked as one single reroll. But one of each thing? No brainer, its 100% better than badmoons for artillery.
Made mine blue 4 years ago, knew it would pay off some day!
If so, can you still take a unit of 1 gun, like other artillery, or do you need to buy 3? I don't think even GW is dumb enough to force you to pay $150 for 1 unit. ...or maybe they are.
JimOnMars wrote: If so, can you still take a unit of 1 gun, like other artillery, or do you need to buy 3? I don't think even GW is dumb enough to force you to pay $150 for 1 unit. ...or maybe they are.
You could take them as just one, but then the rule of three kicks in and it's also more drops.
The real question is - are KMK better than Kannons, in a Deathskulls detachment?
2 Kannons are a little bit pricier (54 vs 42), and while you lose -1ap; you gain double re-rolls, and a d6 damage instead of d3. - That said, you also lose a potential 4 (average 1.5 lost) attacks as well... Perhaps they're just weapons to be used against different targets; KMK against hard, low wound things, and Kannons against bigger targets.
That said, the math may show that KMK win out, even with the increased re-roll potential of the Kannon squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, let's actually math this out:
6 Kannons (162points)
vs T8, Sv3+
6*(0.5)=3 initial hits
3*(0.5)=1.5 converted to hits
4.5*(0.333)=1.5 DDD attacks
1.5*(0.5)=0.75 DDD hits
0.75*(0.25) = 0.1875 DDD misses converted to hits (50% re-rolled instead of 100% re-rolled)
Total hits: 4.5+0.75+0.1875= 5.4375 final hits
5.4375*(0.5)=2.71875 wounds
2.71875*(0.5)=1.359375 converted to wounds
Total wounds: 4.078125
4.078125*(0.5)= 2.0390625 failed armor saves
2.0390625*(3.5)=7.13671875 damage
Total average damage: 7.13671875 average damage
4 KMK (168points)
[3.5*4=14]
14*(0.5)=7 hits
7*(0.5)=3.5 converted hits
10.5*(0.333)=3.4965 DDD attacks
3.4965*(0.5)=1.74825 DDD hits
1.74825*(0.25)=0.4370625 DDD misses converted to hits (50% re-rolled instead of 100% re-rolled)
Total hits: 10.5+1.74825+0.4370625=12.6853125 final hits
12.6853125*(0.5)=6.34265625wounds
4*(0.5)=2 converted to wounds
Total wounds: 8.34
8.34*(0.833)=6.94722 failed armor saves
6.94722*(1.5)=10.42083 average damage
Total average damage: 10.42083
Damn, KMK's blow Kannons out of the water; though it's possible I messed up on my math. Not included are the times where things can spike even higher - or the times where they spike lower.
33% of the time Kannons should be better (1-2 attacks on KMK (1.5/3 vs 3.5 average damage, pre-rolling), 33% where the numbers align relatively close to above (3-4 attacks on KMK), and 33% where the numbers are higher than above (5-6 attacks on KMK).
The sheer volume of attacks, and AP-3 vs AP-2 works out in their favor; at an extremely small point difference (6 points).
For fun, maximum damage output; without DDD 6*6=36 damage Kannon.
6*4*3=72 damage KMK.
So we have a lot of info now. Time to start theory building for me.
Spoiler:
Here's how I'd play em, and some mandatory CP spending. List 1: This is a standard area denial list. You backfield will be all grots and 1x30 boyz and 1x10 boyz. deploy KMK as far forward as possible. Spend 2 CP to deepstrike 1x30 boyz. Turn 1 you are using warbikes dakka guns and stormboyz and even your KMK to clear space and kill screens for your beta strike turn 2. Turn 2 you Mob up your backfield boyz (40man) and da jump with your deepstrike. That's 70 boyz, they all have to be evil sunz for the 8" charge. KMKs are best blue, as we've discussed, and your big mek sticks around back there. I'd load up the wartrike with the relic klaw and the evil suns warlord trait that allows fall back shoot and charge. Nothing ground breaking in this list, but I think its very good. Suffers from not enough -AP. I like this list because the warbikes are the only targets for billowing smoke, and it really helps them stick around, i'm thinking a 10man warbike squad is pretty comparable to 30 shootas, in damage and price.
List 2: Really not sure how this list goes, but they all fit in battlewagons, pretty cheap now those cars. You got some 1x10 boyz for objectives at the back, they need to be the blood axe ones so you can get at least a 5+. The vehicles being blood axe is also pretty solid. Still jumping a 1x30 boyz here, but the 2x19 are in wagons and the flashgitz might do some work as well, who knows. I'm not sold on this list, but it's something.
List 3: I'm pretty sure this is the only way to play Kans. The deep strike stratagem allows 20PL or less, and currently deff dreads are 21 PL for three in a unit. SO if that drops down below 20, then this idea is fething fire. No big shootas on your deff dreads, you just spend 4 CP and launch 6x4 kan klaws at your enemy, they have to be evil sunz for the charge. It's actually super affordable. The rest of this list leans on some battle wagons doing the ramming speed stratagem and hurting things with deff rollas, they were good before but way better now with the price. You want as many speedy HQ as possible in this list beacuse your deff dreads will protect them very well by being closer. Keep in mind, once the deff dreds land you're GUARANTEED to get a charge off since you're making 6 different 8" rerollable charges, theres no way they'll all fail. Best thing about this list as they really have nothing to shoot but t7+ targets for turn 1. Maybe get a 'ard top for the ghazkul battlewagon. This list can't kill flyers, and once it lands, it's really slow, probably gets slammed by eldar/harlequins. I'm spending a lot of CP on relics in this list, if wartrikes can pick them up i'll be bringing the new klaw, headwoppa, and making one of them cybork body 5+++.
List 4: Snakebite Goff babeeeeee, i'm leaning into Monster Hunter stratagem here (+1 to W vs a target). I'd be skarboyzing 2x30 boy squads here, deep strike one, and da jump the other, crash that gak turn 2. The non skarboy 1x30 can trudge up the board with ghaz, keep him safe. You clear a path with your dakka jets (dont forget make one of them -2 to hit with billowing smoke stratagem) and then land your dick punch goff boy team turn 2 and warpath one of them.
Turn 1, you da jump the tankbustas, pop monster hunter, and shoot all your KMK, squiggs, and rokkits at whatever you want, magnus, morty, castellans, shadowblades, whatever. get it done. The tankbustas will die, but what I like about this list as that all the things on the table worth shooting will have 6+++, and the dakkajets will be -1 and -2 to hit. I think this list has legs.
Warboss has the headwoppa relic here. Warlord trait will be +1atk and +1str, give ghaz a run for his money.
List 5: I tried to make the best gunline I could think of without bringing 18 KMK (which is probably still correct btw). Of the new vehicles, the scrapjet with the +1 to hit vehicles is probably the only one worth bringing, and it has a specific anti-tank role in this list that the list would otherwise suffer a bit from. I think 1x30 boyz mobbed up with 1x10, da jumped, and shoot twice with the bad moonz stratagem is going to be NASTY, and may well fit into every list. Once you delete their screens with 160 shots (not including DDD on 5's with the stratagem), you'll drop down the deep striking nobz to clean up the heavy armor. In this list im spending 6CP to deep strike all three of my elite squads. The only thing that bothers me is that they are not evil sunz (they probably should be), but I think specifically in this list you want nobz to be goffs because the exploding 6's really benefit these heavy hitters. You're hoping these nobz land and do serious damage, beacuse they are DEAD after they've finished. But fighting after they die should be awesome (stratagem). I would consider a wartrike in here instead of the big mek on bike perhaps, if you wanted to adv and charge the scrapjets. I know this is going to sound weird, but im bringing the +1 psych power relic with this list. you NEED that spell to go off. But the thunderbluss wouldnt be the worst either.
List 6: Blood axes are how you make a good and solid area denial brigade. Imagine the lootahs, they are in trukks in this list, as we used to do it. But, with the looted tank stratagem, once the trukk dies, these guys are 4+ wherever they stand, and hopefuly they get a point drop. If you're using max range with these blokes that'll make them pretty hard to kill, so long as you have taken up enough space to stop the flyers getting in your deployment zone. Otherwise im just min maxing the rest of the army here, I still want the shoota mob up/da jump here from list 5 to clear out screens (but its no where as good as bad moonz version), but there are heaps of durable notes here. 10 warbikes will love billowing smoke -1, the boomdakka has that built in, the two painboyz will go a long way here, and you've got a stationary and mobile big mek KFF.
This is the only list i would consider 'ard boy stratagem, and i would put it on all three of my boy squads for 6CP, worth. Just for flavors sake, i would give my big mek on bike the finkin hat. Load him up with +1 atk +1str +1dmg and rerolls, then give him headwoppa.
P.S there are heaps of point errors and spelling errors or whatever in this post, but you get the idea. I did this compilation mostly from memory and mostly for myself but thought i'd share some ideas. Any point value in a box is me speculating... e.g. i think lootas will drop a couple of points, and KMK might go back to their original point value before CA.
hollow one wrote: So we have a lot of info now. Time to start theory building for me.
Here's how I'd play em, and some mandatory CP spending.
List 1: This is a standard area denial list. You backfield will be all grots and 1x30 boyz and 1x10 boyz. deploy KMK as far forward as possible. Spend 2 CP to deepstrike 1x30 boyz. Turn 1 you are using warbikes dakka guns and stormboyz and even your KMK to clear space and kill screens for your beta strike turn 2.
Turn 2 you Mob up your backfield boyz (40man) and da jump with your deepstrike. That's 70 boyz, they all have to be evil sunz for the 8" charge. KMKs are best blue, as we've discussed, and your big mek sticks around back there. I'd load up the wartrike with the relic klaw and the evil suns warlord trait that allows fall back shoot and charge. Nothing ground breaking in this list, but I think its very good. Suffers from not enough -AP. I like this list because the warbikes are the only targets for billowing smoke, and it really helps them stick around, i'm thinking a 10man warbike squad is pretty comparable to 30 shootas, in damage and price.
List 2: Really not sure how this list goes, but they all fit in battlewagons, pretty cheap now those cars. You got some 1x10 boyz for objectives at the back, they need to be the blood axe ones so you can get at least a 5+. The vehicles being blood axe is also pretty solid. Still jumping a 1x30 boyz here, but the 2x19 are in wagons and the flashgitz might do some work as well, who knows. I'm not sold on this list, but it's something.
List 3: I'm pretty sure this is the only way to play Kans. The deep strike stratagem allows 20PL or less, and currently deff dreads are 21 PL for three in a unit. SO if that drops down below 20, then this idea is fething fire. No big shootas on your deff dreads, you just spend 4 CP and launch 6x4 kan klaws at your enemy, they have to be evil sunz for the charge. It's actually super affordable. The rest of this list leans on some battle wagons doing the ramming speed stratagem and hurting things with deff rollas, they were good before but way better now with the price. You want as many speedy HQ as possible in this list beacuse your deff dreads will protect them very well by being closer. Keep in mind, once the deff dreds land you're GUARANTEED to get a charge off since you're making 6 different 8" rerollable charges, theres no way they'll all fail. Best thing about this list as they really have nothing to shoot but t7+ targets for turn 1. Maybe get a 'ard top for the ghazkul battlewagon.
This list can't kill flyers, and once it lands, it's really slow, probably gets slammed by eldar/harlequins.
I'm spending a lot of CP on relics in this list, if wartrikes can pick them up i'll be bringing the new klaw, headwoppa, and making one of them cybork body 5+++.
List 4: Snakebite Goff babeeeeee, i'm leaning into Monster Hunter stratagem here (+1 to W vs a target). I'd be skarboyzing 2x30 boy squads here, deep strike one, and da jump the other, crash that gak turn 2. The non skarboy 1x30 can trudge up the board with ghaz, keep him safe. You clear a path with your dakka jets (dont forget make one of them -2 to hit with billowing smoke stratagem) and then land your dick punch goff boy team turn 2 and warpath one of them.
Turn 1, you da jump the tankbustas, pop monster hunter, and shoot all your KMK, squiggs, and rokkits at whatever you want, magnus, morty, castellans, shadowblades, whatever. get it done. The tankbustas will die, but what I like about this list as that all the things on the table worth shooting will have 6+++, and the dakkajets will be -1 and -2 to hit. I think this list has legs.
Warboss has the headwoppa relic here. Warlord trait will be +1atk and +1str, give ghaz a run for his money.
List 5: I tried to make the best gunline I could think of without bringing 18 KMK (which is probably still correct btw). Of the new vehicles, the scrapjet with the +1 to hit vehicles is probably the only one worth bringing, and it has a specific anti-tank role in this list that the list would otherwise suffer a bit from. I think 1x30 boyz mobbed up with 1x10, da jumped, and shoot twice with the bad moonz stratagem is going to be NASTY, and may well fit into every list. Once you delete their screens with 160 shots (not including DDD on 5's with the stratagem), you'll drop down the deep striking nobz to clean up the heavy armor. In this list im spending 6CP to deep strike all three of my elite squads. The only thing that bothers me is that they are not evil sunz (they probably should be), but I think specifically in this list you want nobz to be goffs because the exploding 6's really benefit these heavy hitters. You're hoping these nobz land and do serious damage, beacuse they are DEAD after they've finished. But fighting after they die should be awesome (stratagem). I would consider a wartrike in here instead of the big mek on bike perhaps, if you wanted to adv and charge the scrapjets.
I know this is going to sound weird, but im bringing the +1 psych power relic with this list. you NEED that spell to go off. But the thunderbluss wouldnt be the worst either.
List 6: Blood axes are how you make a good and solid area denial brigade. Imagine the lootahs, they are in trukks in this list, as we used to do it. But, with the looted tank stratagem, once the trukk dies, these guys are 4+ wherever they stand, and hopefuly they get a point drop. If you're using max range with these blokes that'll make them pretty hard to kill, so long as you have taken up enough space to stop the flyers getting in your deployment zone. Otherwise im just min maxing the rest of the army here, I still want the shoota mob up/da jump here from list 5 to clear out screens (but its no where as good as bad moonz version), but there are heaps of durable notes here. 10 warbikes will love billowing smoke -1, the boomdakka has that built in, the two painboyz will go a long way here, and you've got a stationary and mobile big mek KFF.
This is the only list i would consider 'ard boy stratagem, and i would put it on all three of my boy squads for 6CP, worth.
Just for flavors sake, i would give my big mek on bike the finkin hat. Load him up with +1 atk +1str +1dmg and rerolls, then give him headwoppa.
P.S there are heaps of point errors and spelling errors or whatever in this post, but you get the idea. I did this compilation mostly from memory and mostly for myself but thought i'd share some ideas. Any point value in a box is me speculating... e.g. i think lootas will drop a couple of points, and KMK might go back to their original point value before CA.
Where did we get the points for many things from? Has a full codex leak been done?
Would love to start theorycrafting.
Damn good idea, wasn't there something that allowed our characters to target characters as well? Sniping style. That's something i would consider for sure.
Damn good idea, wasn't there something that allowed our characters to target characters as well? Sniping style. That's something i would consider for sure.
Yeah, that's the deathskull warlord trait (still rumoured). But that's a nice little synergy.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.
Can't do that, i think it should be <Clan> Infantry?? Don't think it will be possible?
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.
Can't do that, i think it should be <Clan> Infantry?? Don't think it will be possible?
ATM it's Ork Infantry requirement and thus legal. Now of course it's possible GW will hit with nerfbat there but it is NOT quaranteed(Well unless it's leaked already and I missed it). For comparison look at Imperial Guard where it doesn't care does cadian chimera transport cadians or catachans. Space marines of course do but hey space marines were first codex out so it's more than likely GW decided to alter idea after that so in future with marine codex V2 even that changes.
Damn good idea, wasn't there something that allowed our characters to target characters as well? Sniping style. That's something i would consider for sure.
The deff skulls warlord trait supposedly allows re-rolls 1 to hit against against vehicles and targeting characters in the shooting phase. Due to the deff skulls kulture a SAG mek would also be objective secured, as would any crew men for our artillery.
SAG mek+artillery in a deff skulls spearhead might cover all backfield scoring you need.
However, I would hold my breath on whether our crewmen keep the character targeting rule. If they do, deff skulls KMK would be one of the best objective secured units in the game.
PS: I exalted both you for the write up of your strategy and fe40k for the math on kannons vs KMK. We need more real discussions in our community again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hollow one wrote: List 2: Really not sure how this list goes, but they all fit in battlewagons, pretty cheap now those cars. You got some 1x10 boyz for objectives at the back, they need to be the blood axe ones so you can get at least a 5+. The vehicles being blood axe is also pretty solid. Still jumping a 1x30 boyz here, but the 2x19 are in wagons and the flashgitz might do some work as well, who knows. I'm not sold on this list, but it's something.
According to the game on twitch, there are three battlewagon datasheets now, similar to how carnifexes are split in three. One has a deff rolla and better combat stats, one has BS4+ and we have no info on what the last one has different from the others. Any of those might have been the 120 points that were spoiled. It's also possible not all of them have access to 'ard case.
That said, a killkannon/zzap gun/quad big shoota wagon at BS4+ might turn out to be the battletank we have always waited for.
Jidmah wrote: According to the game on twitch, there are three battlewagon datasheets now, similar to how carnifexes are split in three. One has a deff rolla and better combat stats, one has BS4+ and we have no info on what the last one has different from the others. Any of those might have been the 120 points that were spoiled. It's also possible not all of them have access to 'ard case.
That said, a killkannon/zzap gun/quad big shoota wagon at BS4+ might turn out to be the battletank we have always waited for.
Also, you can field up to 9 battlewagon now
Aye I heard the three versions, but let's be honest, they're tough and that's what matters. 'ard case melee wagons are probably a safe bet. But.... Here's hoping lootaz in battlewagons is a thing, or maybe ramming speed/wartrike waagh/deff rolla are enough to put the melee battlewagon over the edge of playable on its own, regardless of what's inside it.
However I am really excited to deep strike 3 deff dreads for 2 cp. I hope that's a thing, they only need a small PL drop, three of them is 21 PLatm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: However, I would hold my breath on whether our crewmen keep the character targeting rule. If they do, deff skulls KMK would be one of the best objective secured units in the game.
That would indeed completely nullify the unit. 'Take Cover' is what makes KMK great, not the mek gun.
IF they won't have any protection then poor mek guns. 5 T2 6+ wounds is super easy to remove. Guns themselves are fairly soft to remove but bit better especially with KFF nearby where you could luck out couple lascannons out.
Doubt that rule goes away. At most modified to work like character rule and not super-character rule. The obsec wouldn't be huge impact often anyway. Then again GW seems to be thinking just because something is taken means it's brokenly good and not because it's just least bad option out of bad units.
tneva82 wrote: IF they won't have any protection then poor mek guns. 5 T2 6+ wounds is super easy to remove. Guns themselves are fairly soft to remove but bit better especially with KFF nearby where you could luck out couple lascannons out.
mek guns would literally be unplayable. And in ITC each 5 man grot squad would count as a unit, so you've basically forfeited by bringing them in your list. I know that sounds hyperbolic but taking away Take Cover will be devastating.
Well I don't play ITC so at least I wouldn't be hurt that. Here it's generally combo of eternal war and maelstrom misions for tournaments and some CA maelstrom card in FLGS. But yeah in kill points those would be pretty nasty. Unless you have nice hill behind which hide crew while guns are on hill the crew would be wiped out.
But has there been any leak that rule would be gone? Don't think so. Wouldn't be worried. Surely that big nerf would be already leaked.
(assumption being he meant mek guns are single profile combo unit and crew is just there on board but aren't played as unit as before)
That until you run into tournament where not having 5 grot crew on gun is considered modeling for advantage as your gun will occupy less table space.
Which albeit is somewhat valid. If the crew is just there on board without being own unit as now unless they are also specifically said not to count for measuring etc and models can be put where crew used to be(removed from table temporarily to make space if needed) you are better off NOT having crew models on table. But this one easily triggers MFA accusations.
Tabletop Tactics played them without the grots on the board at all. Also they noted they are not Ork keyword, so they don't benefit from chapter tactics.
hollow one wrote: Tabletop Tactics played them without the grots on the board at all. Also they noted they are not Ork keyword, so they don't benefit from chapter tactics.
Well price isn't as steep but still price increased and loss of unit so double nerfbat there. Certainly models aren't NEEDED anymore then so if tournaments allow that then that's at least one way to compensate for nerf by advantage that provides(and solves my crewless KMK issue). But surprisingly many nerfs on codex lol.
So I'm thinking this for a 1500 pts core for Deffskulls MSU
2x Deffkilla Wartrike
2x SAG Mek
3x 20 Boyz, 1 Rokkit
3x 10 Grots
6x single Dragsta
That's across 2 Battalions for 10 CP and lots of open slots for stuff. MSU advantage is maximizing the kultur re-rolls, major downside is you get a lot less benefit from strategems.
2x Deffkilla Wartrike
2x SAG Mek
3x 20 Boyz, 1 Rokkit
3x 10 Grots
6x single Dragsta
That's across 2 Battalions for 10 CP and lots of open slots for stuff. MSU advantage is maximizing the kultur re-rolls, major downside is you get a lot less benefit from strategems.
You can't take grots in that detachment, they don't have clan traits. Unless I am mistaken, you need boyz.
I was under the impression that a <clan> detachment had to consist of only units that had the <clan> keyword. You can still take them in an Ork (no bonus) detachment.
Just going off the leaks, but that sounds like the way it is written.
Killa Kans also.
ETA: Is it just that they are missing the Kultur keyword and not the <Clan> keyword?
Anyone mind helping me with the index/codex flowchart thingy? Im having trouble understanding what to do if a peice of wargear exists in the codex, but the unit carrying it no longer does.
Namely, if I take a big mek on bike with KFF, do I use the profile from the index for the Mek and the profile for the KFF from the new codex?
JimOnMars wrote: I was under the impression that a <clan> detachment had to consist of only units that had the <clan> keyword. You can still take them in an Ork (no bonus) detachment.
Just going off the leaks, but that sounds like the way it is written.
Killa Kans also.
ETA: Is it just that they are missing the Kultur keyword and not the <Clan> keyword?
I think You can still take grots as a troop choice, but because they don't have a clan keyword, they can't benifit from clan/kulture traits or strategems.
ZoBo wrote: however, that list is still borked, 6 single dragsta's...rule of 3...
Dragstas are 1-3 per slot but split into 1-model units, so that's only 2 selections. You can have 9 of them, or in fact any other type of buggy.
yeah I know that, hence my objection ...the way it was written sounded like 6 single-dragsta units, not 2 three-dragsta units, or 3 two-dragsta units...referring to list-building, not in-game, after deployment...
ETA: Is it just that they are missing the Kultur keyword and not the <Clan> keyword?
I think You can still take grots as a troop choice, but because they don't have a clan keyword, they can't benifit from clan/kulture traits or strategems.
They still have <CLAN>, just no Kultur. This can be seen in one of the images for the ibook Codex preorder.
fe40k wrote: Why are people taking 20 Boyz now? What changed?
Points and maybe they are meant more for board control than getting stuck in. 60 boyz will be shot down in a turn anyway if enemy wants to in a turn so...What I wonder why 20 if you don't take 2 rokkits and if you want to have 1 rokkit per 1 reroll(though that assumes every stage you NEED to use reroll...That's some pessimism to assume you miss on first roll every time!) why not go for 6x10 with rokkit each? Could even be tougher that way with wasted shots for opponent and you can faill every invidivual roll and have reroll
ZoBo wrote: however, that list is still borked, 6 single dragsta's...rule of 3...
Dragstas are 1-3 per slot but split into 1-model units, so that's only 2 selections. You can have 9 of them, or in fact any other type of buggy.
yeah I know that, hence my objection ...the way it was written sounded like 6 single-dragsta units, not 2 three-dragsta units, or 3 two-dragsta units...referring to list-building, not in-game, after deployment...
But what's the difference? Well except 6 individually would give you more deployments. But for in game reroll it's irrelevant right? (or do I misremember and they are NOT individual units after deployment?)
what up with these packages they released lol. Seems like they dont provide much of a deal, and you could almost get them individually for same price. (Canadian Funds) 400 for the pole position set, 220 for a set of 4 buggies (55 each).
They aren't discount boxes nor do GW claim them to have discount so nobody can even claim dishonest marketing. They are basically 1 click bundles. They don't cost anything for GW(it's just entry in database) and gives bit less clicking for customers. No big help, no real harm either. They come in their normal boxes as well so 1 click bundle with 4 boxes come in 4 boxes. Discount box meanwhile would have 1 custom made box with own art that contained all.
davou wrote: Anyone mind helping me with the index/codex flowchart thingy? Im having trouble understanding what to do if a peice of wargear exists in the codex, but the unit carrying it no longer does.
Namely, if I take a big mek on bike with KFF, do I use the profile from the index for the Mek and the profile for the KFF from the new codex?
If your model doesn't have a datasheet in the codex, you keep using the one from the index.
If wargear your model is using has been updated, you use the points of the codex version.
If wargear your model is using has disappeared from the codex, keep using the index points.
In specific:
You take the big mek on bike datasheet from the index and all rules on it (including the one for the KFF).
You pay the base cost for the model from the index and the wargear costs from the codex for KFF, klaw, shoota and anything else you want to equip him with.
It doesn't matter though, the rumor about the better KFF is fake news. Nothing has changed, the two guys from GMG compared the two books word by word.
I think this is an unintended consequence, and I haven't heard all the rules out of the codex yet, but if it's possible to put one Kulture unit into the transport of a different Kulture, which rules take precedence? In the index, it said that modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the embarked unit, so If you have a Evil Sun trukk with Bad Moon tankbustas, does the Evil Sun 'assault weapons don't have penalty for advancing' rule apply to the tankbustas?
Mobbing Up: haven't heard in any reading of the strategem that it bans units of different kultures from mobbing up. How is that going to work?
I think this is an unintended consequence, and I haven't heard all the rules out of the codex yet, but if it's possible to put one Kulture unit into the transport of a different Kulture, which rules take precedence? In the index, it said that modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the embarked unit, so If you have a Evil Sun trukk with Bad Moon tankbustas, does the Evil Sun 'assault weapons don't have penalty for advancing' rule apply to the tankbustas?
Mobbing Up: haven't heard in any reading of the strategem that it bans units of different kultures from mobbing up. How is that going to work?
Units inside aren't on board so they dont' confer anything. What page you refer with that claim?
It works same as IG vehicles. They are separate units and unit inside doesn't count for anything except specific exceptions like shooting from open topped(and btw if that's the rule you think it's RESTRICTION or MODIFIER. Not ABILITY. Not same thing. Truk being evil sun has zero effect)
As for mobbing up have we seen the wording of codex strategem?
Game hasn't imploded yet and this isn't first time mixing traits in same army is possible. Indeed it's been possible ever since first codex.
I am not getting warm fuzzies yet about this codex from what I have seen. The points increases to our good units and the units that didn't receive a points decrease has me worried. I do like a lot of this but some of this stuff is just mind boggling. Ghaz went up in price but doesn't get any new buffs/stats/auras. Same for our normal Warboss.
koooaei wrote: Yeah, blood axes are pretty useless. We allready have the deepsrrike, don't we?
The fall back and charge seems primarily useful for Deff Dreadz, as IIRC Kanz for some bizarre reason don't have Klan Kultures, so they can't use it. I guess it's also okay on burna boyz? It would make a battlewagon with them inside not get completely neutered when they get love tapped by a few marines.
koooaei wrote: Yeah, blood axes are pretty useless. We allready have the deepsrrike, don't we?
The fall back and charge seems primarily useful for Deff Dreadz, as IIRC Kanz for some bizarre reason don't have Klan Kultures, so they can't use it. I guess it's also okay on burna boyz? It would make a battlewagon with them inside not get completely neutered when they get love tapped by a few marines.
Fall back thing is alas fairly rarely useful. Past year it would have been ONCE actually useful. Generally in 2 combat phases either enemy dies, I die or enemy fall backs...And the 1 time it would have been useful evil sun trait would have been more impactfull anyway. And here deff dread enjoys more of +1 to charge for fairly reliable DZ charge.
For last one somebody tags BW can't you just disembark out of it? Or does that count as fall back? (hasn't come much into use as I have no armies with worthwhile transports and the times I use ork transports they just gets blown out rather than tagged)
Blood axe sounded better on rumours but now feels like one of the 2 weakest ones(among goffs). Well every codex has bad traits so no surprise orks have those
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koooaei wrote: Yeah, blood axes are pretty useless. We allready have the deepsrrike, don't we?
The blood axe DS strategem does allow PL8 or lower units for half the CP price and deep striking PL21+ units which regular DS can't do so that's something. Alas 20 boyz are 9PL in index and unlikely to drop to 8 with the boyz nerf. 20 boyz units for 1CP could be useful for something. Can\t IIRC even use for grots as they don\t have kultur right? Those could be used for objective grabbing I suppose but nope.
You mean the grey knights who also all have deep strike native and thus are no worse off?-) Well except sucking as a whole. But deep strike wise their FA option not only can deep strike but can also do mini teleport mid game so more jumpy than stormboyz. So not sure what you mean by outgreyknighting greyknights.
Yeh that's rather funny. That rule helps more of gunlines than assault armies. Reminds a lot of raven guard who are supposed to use stealth to get close to assault but turned into gunline army
All in all GW can make strong traits but inevitably they encourage armies that are all mixed up. Happened with marines, happened with eldars, happened here. IG has reasonable fluff=game except for oddity of catachan being one of the best tank regiments but that's minor compared to eldar/ork oddities. I'm tempted to just call the clans with different names. Evil suns become goffs etc.
From what Ive seen of the new codex we might be competitive but its going to not be nearly as powerful as we were hoping for. Boyz, KMKs, our characters and hell, even our Flashgitz got nerfed with price increases. Units that desperately needed a buff like Lootas and Burnas got nothing and units that were utterly useless like Warbikes only received marginal buffs. I think the only units ive seen which got decent points drops was the Kanz (Which don't get kultures) and Koptas. Fingers crossed the profiles for those units/weapons have drastically changed otherwise its GG for most of the stuff we needed.
Codex: Tellyporta. Seems that's the thing that keeps this codex held at all. Pity if you would like other kind of army and is step over from how orks are portrayed. Yes they have had teleporting though in large scale only in armageddon but it's never been described as the MAIN way every ork army uses so would be annoying if that's the only way to field orks which sure looks like.
Yup, this is going to be the Evil sunz edition where you bum rush things forward as quickly as possible so turn 2 you can hit them with the behind the lines charge via teleporta/Da Jump, and maybe Kommando/Stormboyz. Because our gun lines look like they got worse, I don't see KMKs being better when they cost almost 50% more, I really don't see Lootas doing anything unless they've changed their profiles so their weapons do more without having to spend CP every turn.
SemperMortis wrote: From what Ive seen of the new codex we might be competitive but its going to not be nearly as powerful as we were hoping for. Boyz, KMKs, our characters and hell, even our Flashgitz got nerfed with price increases. Units that desperately needed a buff like Lootas and Burnas got nothing and units that were utterly useless like Warbikes only received marginal buffs. I think the only units ive seen which got decent points drops was the Kanz (Which don't get kultures) and Koptas. Fingers crossed the profiles for those units/weapons have drastically changed otherwise its GG for most of the stuff we needed.
Boyz definitely got a buff, 7ppm is a bargain for deepstrike, tide of traitors, fight twice, and one of +1move/str/fnp/invuln/rerolls. However, KMK are indeed dead, they are 65 points, no grot crew. Traktor kannons look tasty instead there to replace though. And yeah, poor ghaz got a bump? Shame. Bunch of random bumps as well, runtherd and flashgitz? Okay...
Without thinking really too hard, green tide is probably still going to be the best list lol. But yeah there are more options for casual play now for sure. Deepstrike 3x105ppm deff dreads is exciting?
Boyz might have got buff compared to index IF you use deepstrike. But when you compare index boyz vs index others and codex boyz vs codex others it's nerfs. Others got strategems, traits etc for free or point costs. Fine if boyz were broken in index vs index but they were below average anyway.
But problem with deep striking boyz is...why not just DS something better instead? Can't DS all anyway so better stuff in DS and then backfield objective campers and boyz suck now in that compared to grots.
Non DS boyz just die before getting anywhere. They were shot before, there's 16% less of them now so get shot even more. And DS boys only work with evil sun as 9" charge is just too unreliable. 50-50 do you get to charge(vs chaff) or are you just deleted just like that.
SemperMortis wrote: From what Ive seen of the new codex we might be competitive but its going to not be nearly as powerful as we were hoping for. Boyz, KMKs, our characters and hell, even our Flashgitz got nerfed with price increases. Units that desperately needed a buff like Lootas and Burnas got nothing and units that were utterly useless like Warbikes only received marginal buffs. I think the only units ive seen which got decent points drops was the Kanz (Which don't get kultures) and Koptas. Fingers crossed the profiles for those units/weapons have drastically changed otherwise its GG for most of the stuff we needed.
Boyz definitely got a buff, 7ppm is a bargain for deepstrike, tide of traitors, fight twice, and one of +1move/str/fnp/invuln/rerolls. However, KMK are indeed dead, they are 65 points, no grot crew. Traktor kannons look tasty instead there to replace though. And yeah, poor ghaz got a bump? Shame. Bunch of random bumps as well, runtherd and flashgitz? Okay...
Without thinking really too hard, green tide is probably still going to be the best list lol. But yeah there are more options for casual play now for sure. Deepstrike 3x105ppm deff dreads is exciting?
6+ FNP is crap because of the points increase. you increase cost by 16.6% and then make them 16.6% more durable, that is not a buff its a nerf, especially when you factor in multi damage weapons. +1 move....you mean like we had in 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th .....basically forever? We used to have boyz moving 6 not 5, so its again a minor buff which is cancelled out by the increase in price. Strength costs CP, invuln is meh as again, you save a few more boyz but your cost went up so badly that it is a nerf.
Not saying they are nerfed into uselessness I am just saying boyz in general got nerfed.
Overall, I am just not getting warm fuzzies like I was hoping I would.
tneva82 wrote: Fine if boyz were broken in index vs index but they were below average anyway.
They absolute were not. They carried the ark army on their backs almost single handedly.
I actually agree with you. boyz were either average or slightly above average. The real benefit was we could take fethloads of them for so cheap and use them to drown targets.
SemperMortis wrote: 6+ FNP is crap because of the points increase. you increase cost by 16.6% and then make them 16.6% more durable, that is not a buff its a nerf, especially when you factor in multi damage weapons. +1 move....you mean like we had in 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th .....basically forever? We used to have boyz moving 6 not 5, so its again a minor buff which is cancelled out by the increase in price. Strength costs CP, invuln is meh as again, you save a few more boyz but your cost went up so badly that it is a nerf.
Not saying they are nerfed into uselessness I am just saying boyz in general got nerfed.
Overall, I am just not getting warm fuzzies like I was hoping I would.
6+++ which isn't even 16% buff and which you could already have anyway before so...
Foot slogging boyz did get nerfed to death. Grots do their job better now. If you want boys paint 'em red&yellow and put on tellyporta. You can fit 4 such units maximum if you are happy with just boys tellyporting it.
tneva82 wrote: Fine if boyz were broken in index vs index but they were below average anyway.
They absolute were not. They carried the ark army on their backs almost single handedly.
Uhm you make same mistake idiots at the GW do confusing least sucky unit with good unit. STOMPA would be taken in mass if grots were 100 pts a model and were one of the ork's best units. Wouldn't make stompa a good option though....
Just because boyz were only hope of avoiding wipeout by either game ending prematuredly or oppoent rolling mega bad doesn't make unit actually good. They are so bad that spamming TACTICAL MARINES would give boyz swarm run for it's money and tactical marines are hardly optimal unit either...
Just because unit is best of the bad doesn't mean it's good. At least if you are looking at external balance. Sure it might be brokenly good within codex but if compared to other factions it's still bad it doesn't mean you nerf it but help the bad units.
What happened is that boyz got nerfed to uselessness unless you DS them but for DS there's better units so ork players will rush to buy new models to DS and abandon boys. Funny that. GW changing purchase patterns resulting in army that is still sub-average hoping mostly to avoid wipeouts. Only thing happened was one style was changed to other. Internal and external balance is still a mess but GW got players to buy new kind of units. Just as planned.
As much as I love seeing ork teleportin’ teknology finally represented on the field, and absolutely love the thought of teleporting dreads, nauts, and others;
Take away Tellyporta. Take away Da Jump. Take away +1a for 20+ Boyz.
Give Orks a non-gimmicky playstyle, and let them have a real codex, full of options. A real way to get across the field.
As it stands right now, this codex is previewed to have one playstyle; tellyport/deepstrike what you can, and run the rest across the field and try to get into combat t1, t2 at the absolute latest.
I get it, Orks are the melee faction - and there’s nothing wrong with that. But, I want to take other units; I want to take shooty Orks, I want to have different playstyle options.
But it’s ok, at least we can teleport squads of mechs. One fun light in an otherwise questionable codex.
Orks had ONE playstyle; and you know what, rest of index be suck, at least that playstyle was fluffy as hell - Green Tide.
Yep they just switched the viable playstyle(while still leaving it worse than other codexes). From greentide to tellyporta spam. Internal balance is still all wonky with uncompetive units left uncompetive and semi decent nerfed.
Good if you had already evil sun walkers and traktor kannons. If not time to buy some. Guessing not many had those(in particular traktor kannons. First time that is sensible choise)
tneva82 wrote: Yep they just switched the viable playstyle(while still leaving it worse than other codexes). From greentide to tellyporta spam. Internal balance is still all wonky with uncompetive units left uncompetive and semi decent nerfed.
Good if you had already evil sun walkers and traktor kannons. If not time to buy some. Guessing not many had those(in particular traktor kannons. First time that is sensible choise)
Well i'll finally have a reason to buy that Gorkanaut i wanted to get back in 7th. Now all I need is a Stompa to complete my Walker list (12 kanz 3 dreadz 2 nautz and 1 Stompa)
DoomMouse wrote: Anyone know how the grot meatshield rule works? Could be a very powerful option for screening first turn death.
And are stormboyz still 8pts? If so, no reason to run Boyz at 7 until you've maxed stormboyz.
Sad to hear there haven't been more points drops.
Looking forward to watching these previews to get to grips with the changes!
When you take a wound, 2+ the grot dies instead. You take the saves on the boyz first. Grots have to be closer to the enemy.
Stormboyz are 9, they now have deepstrike built in.
How are people feeling about loadouts on boys now with the clans spoiled? I dont think that the bulk of the strats have been spoiled yet, Anything that would encourage shootas over choppas or vice versa?
DoomMouse wrote: Anyone know how the grot meatshield rule works? Could be a very powerful option for screening first turn death.
And are stormboyz still 8pts? If so, no reason to run Boyz at 7 until you've maxed stormboyz.
Sad to hear there haven't been more points drops.
Looking forward to watching these previews to get to grips with the changes!
9 pts for stormboyz.
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Dr.Duck wrote: How are people feeling about loadouts on boys now with the clans spoiled? I dont think that the bulk of the strats have been spoiled yet, Anything that would encourage shootas over choppas or vice versa?
Shootas were already useful to have around. 2 shots at 5+ is better than 1 attack at 3+. Pistol of course adds but range meant not all could shoot. Generally I have found when I assault I don't need to advance before(I'm close enough). And of course for da jump it's been all shoota as go to. 9"+ so having all pistols into same unit is hard to fit and 50-50 do you charge so if you don't charge but can at least shoot. Oh and you don't neccessarily want to shoot the closest unit as that means often pushing charge from 9" to 10" or more so more range adds up to more options. And 30 boyz tends to kill target anyway choppa or not.
It's not all shoota all day but it's worth to have some. Enough for me. Oh and DDD does help here.
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Eonfuzz wrote: Am I reading those points right? No more mega amrored warboss?
Rismonite wrote: All of my planes and walkers should choose Deffskullz, change my mind?
Maybe Bad Moonz on a Dakkajet?
Vehicles that have weapons with numerous shots, choose Bad Moonz, vehicles that shoot less then 6 shots, use Deff Skullz?
Planes can work I guess but dakkajet would benefit more from bad moon. Reroll 1's for everything rather than 1 when it's multi shot. Deffskulls want few quality shots rather than multiple weaker shots. For walkers...Well better but problem is you want to DS+assault and without evil sun that's too unreliable. And even foot slogging you really want that 2/3" extra speed to get into combat before T3 so for competive list evil sun for walkers pretty much any day. Maybe you could get 1 walker on other clan(likely goff) with the 3d6" strategem. 9" on 3d6 more reliable than 8 on 2d6 anyway.
Deffskull is more for gun platforms and ork walkers(except kans which don't get kultur anyway) are for smashing head in h2h. Not good combination. For deffskulls you are probably looking at the new BS4+ gun battlewagon or some of the new buggies rather than walkers.
koooaei wrote: There should be no footslogging gits from what i see. They should all be tellyported in while grots score backfield.
From what i see we've turned from a footslogging horde with some deepstrike into a deepstriking horde with some footslogging.
Well. Some people insisted on playing stuff like meganobz in trukks in indexes. There's always people who are willing to play weak armies just for sake of it. Hell I have fielded stompa 3 times myself So you will still see footslogging armies. They just get wiped off the board if ork player doesn't slowplay 2-3 turn games.
But yeah ds something. Boys possibility or maybe something even more killy. For backfield scoring grots trump over boyz.
You need something on T1 to ensure enemy can't move chaff forward at will though. Or something that can kill and DS on T3. Otherwise enemy will wall your deep strikers to YOUR half of the table...At which point you are actually worse of DS'ing. IG will be particularly bad for this due to cheap fast(12"+2d6" if they feel like) infantry. Tyranids could be nasty as well. Oh and ironically other ork armies.
edit: Once I get settled on Adeptus Titanicus model painting guess I need to start operation repaint for orks. For example Stormboyz, meganobz, one gorkanaut. All in goff which is bad options. Need to be evil suns. Generally maybe get rid of all bad moon and goff units due to trouble adding 3 clans nevermind 4. That's a lot of repainting to do.
Hi
I have not followed all rumors, but obviously teleporting/ deep strike is a big thing in the new codex. Is not this obsolete since the FAQ rule of no deep strike outside you deployment for the first turn?
Which means you come on T2. There's no rule "anything not on board after T1 dies". That's after T3 so you still have 2 turns. And that way you can actually make it ALIVE to combat. If you try to footslog over with say boyz you make into combat T3 after suffering 2-3 turns of shooting losing 120-180 boyz. Yey! With DS+evil sun trait you can make it in T2 fairly reliably suffering just overwatch so unless you try to charge valiant or two your casualties after hitting first line are fairly small. Albeit first line will be chaff but that's true DS or foot slog. At least you got past those with light casualties.
Nora wrote: Hi
I have not followed all rumors, but obviously teleporting/ deep strike is a big thing in the new codex. Is not this obsolete since the FAQ rule of no deep strike outside you deployment for the first turn?
The last Big FAQ updated that restriction to be no deepstrike at all on Turn 1 (if I remember correctly) so, presuming you are playing Matched Play, you'll have to wait until turn 2 to use the deepstrike stratagems and abilities just like all other factions. It's not obsolete it just isn't as good as it used to be but it's something that everyone playing Matched Play must abide by, so it's not just us
Rismonite wrote: All of my planes and walkers should choose Deffskullz, change my mind?
Maybe Bad Moonz on a Dakkajet?
Vehicles that have weapons with numerous shots, choose Bad Moonz, vehicles that shoot less then 6 shots, use Deff Skullz?
Melee units in a transport with numerous attacks should use Goffs?
Footslogging gitz should be Evil Sunz?
Should Transports use Blood Axe, Deffskullz, or Snake Bitz?
Your walkers should probably be evil sunz, their damage output shooting is irrelevant.
The only plane worth bringing is still the Dakka Jet, and the bomb planes are only good thanks to the fly-over mortal wounds. So bad moons or snakebites (FNP and -1 to hit is really durable)
i like your general rule of less than 6 is deffskulls, i'd subscribe to that in the first instance.
Melee units: if youre deepstriking your boys, they pretty much have to be evil sunz. Otherwise if you've figured out a clever way to get them across the board otherwise, goffs will work.
I think snakebites are the best on transports for durability, pretty much in all cases, assuming you are willing to pay for a KFF (and maybe even if you're not).
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koooaei wrote: There should be no footslogging gits from what i see. They should all be tellyported in while grots score backfield.
From what i see we've turned from a footslogging horde with some deepstrike into a deepstriking horde with some footslogging.
TBH the command points are probably worth saving, maybe deep strike one squad, da jump the second squad, then tide of traitors the third squad. Our stratagems are so good, you want to save the CP.
None of the buggies seem to be good. At least to me. But if you got to choose, the shokkjump is probably the best. On the other hand the squig thingy might be doing more damage if you're running snakebites and spend 3cp for +1 to wound.
Yep if they could be taken in 30 mob(or did that change?) evil sun kommandos would be automatic choise over boyz for free deep strike and extra h2h ability in cover.
With the grot shield strategem, would it be worth it to do a front line of max unit grots at the front edge of deployment, then either walk them forward if your opponant has moved up, or da jump them if the opponent has made a defensive gunline.
Behind these, have a KFF mek and Goff or Sunz boyz to huff it up the board. Keep some MANZ or Dreads on the tellyporta to drop in behind the gretchin upfield. With a 3d6 reroll charge, they are almost guaranteed to make it in.
If you spaced out the gretchen, they would be porous enough that you could get boyz through but not allow a counter charge through.
This way, if you don't go first, your expensive unit can't get shot, and you can hopefully weather the first turn shooting with everyone else.
Now that Stormboyz have deepstrike, what are the odds that you could drop a MSU close, but don't engage. The opponent hopefully will engage the big threat you just dropped in front of them, leaving the Stormboyz to move over the lines and engage backfield objectives or units.
How the grot shield strategem work in codex? Is it protection vs one unit shooting or protection for one unit of orks thorough shooting phase?
If 1st then it's not going to be something you can rely on. Enemy will fire at the expensive unit you want to protect with less death star unit shooting first so either you let them go and they get bombarded or you trigger it and then it's wasted.
If it's 2nd it's better though as long as the expensive unit behind is infantry that is best dealt with anti-horde weapons. If not those anti horde weapons will simply wipe the gretchin(not hard job anyway) and then deal with the expensive unit.
I ve played basically only ´nids this edition just to get my money worth after painting and building an army in 7th which had only 1(!!!!!) flyrant.
So maybe I can´t feel the same disappointment from the new codex, I just feel it is nice to have a bit more option and I will write a list based on my playstyle similar to the one I have with nids: some backup, some DS and some fast, hard hitting units.
I did some fast mathammer comparing 20 Kraken genestealer with a Broodlord with them vs 12 bikers+klaw and a warboss on bike with the klaw relics and they are not that different, Bikes survives better vs flamers,bolters and heavy flamers/bolters and just about the same vs lasgun.
Genestealers will pour way more W vs GEQ but vs MEQ and VEQ is just about the same.
This is an ideal scenario where both the Genestealers and the Orks gets 2 turn and than charges, where the Orks get to shoot just once, if you get to shoot twice, as you should, the Orks are way better. Just do not charge terminators or other high AP units, or you are F ED
Ehat our real options against 3 knights in a 1500 pt games are right now?
I imagine the Stikbomb stratagem (throw 10 of any grenade for 1 CP) on Tankbusta Boyz bombs will basically delete most vehicles. Just have to get them to the target.
Normal Boyz and Kommandos also come with tankbusta bombs as well now. Every little helps.
I did some fast mathammer comparing 20 Kraken genestealer with a Broodlord with them vs 12 bikers+klaw and a warboss on bike with the klaw relics and they are not that different, Bikes survives better vs flamers,bolters and heavy flamers/bolters and just about the same vs lasgun.
Genestealers will pour way more W vs GEQ but vs MEQ and VEQ is just about the same.
Ah yes damage output is only thing that matters. Nevermind 5++ stealers have or ability to simply zoom in faster than jetbike thus ensuring T1 charges if they want whereupon bikers require good luck and co-operation from enemy.
Also 80 S4 -1(1/6 wounds -4) vs 36 S4 -0 attacks for stealers vs bikes. Warboss isn't that much better than broodlord if that. And how you get them same vs better armoured when that's where stealers have advantage due to better save. And against soft targets stealers have talons for reroll 1's to hit. Both hits on same 3+ so not even there.
T3 5+:
20 stealers: 31 dead with rending claws, 34.57 with scything talons
12 bikes: 10,66 with h2h, 6.2222 with guns=16.88 in total. Warboss isn't that much better than broodlord(oh and broodlord would up above casualties).
T4 2+:
stealers: 13,33333244315556 with rending claws. 5,185185184977778 with talons just for completion though you would have to be complete noob to use talons here
bikes: 1,555555555337778 with guns, 1,99999999198 with h2h for about 3.5 wounds. Again warboss doesn't compensate. Relative gap between bikes and stealers just goes up the better safe you have(no wonder since stealers have AP and bikes don't)
Bikes aren't something you use for h2h with orks. They are not h2h. They are harashment unit. They go around taking objectives and attacking tiny backfield units. They don't have punch to hurt anything serious. 20 stealers meanwhile even without broodlord will munch through units. If you use bikes don't go charging in expecting them to kill anything but chaff. Killing tough targets isn't even their job.
tneva82 wrote: How the grot shield strategem work in codex? Is it protection vs one unit shooting or protection for one unit of orks thorough shooting phase?
If 1st then it's not going to be something you can rely on. Enemy will fire at the expensive unit you want to protect with less death star unit shooting first so either you let them go and they get bombarded or you trigger it and then it's wasted.
If it's 2nd it's better though as long as the expensive unit behind is infantry that is best dealt with anti-horde weapons. If not those anti horde weapons will simply wipe the gretchin(not hard job anyway) and then deal with the expensive unit.
its the 2nd option. pick a unit that is shot at, if there are gretchin within 6" and they are closer to the shooting unit, for the rest of the phase you roll a dice for every UNSAVED wound. on a 2+ the gretchin unit suffers a mortal wound instead. 1CP works only on infantry models (i think)
What do people think about having the shoot battlewagon full of flashgitz? Send the wagon up the table t1 and then just leave it there in the middle, anything in range is taking a beating. It is a lot of points but if you sent some grots up with it they could shield the bugger
ManTube wrote: What do people think about having the shoot battlewagon full of flashgitz? Send the wagon up the table t1 and then just leave it there in the middle, anything in range is taking a beating. It is a lot of points but if you sent some grots up with it they could shield the bugger
The gunwagon version of the battlewagon is unfortunately not open topped. It has the "ard case"-upgrade built in, so transported infantry can't shoot.
I did some fast mathammer comparing 20 Kraken genestealer with a Broodlord with them vs 12 bikers+klaw and a warboss on bike with the klaw relics and they are not that different, Bikes survives better vs flamers,bolters and heavy flamers/bolters and just about the same vs lasgun.
Genestealers will pour way more W vs GEQ but vs MEQ and VEQ is just about the same.
Ah yes damage output is only thing that matters. Nevermind 5++ stealers have or ability to simply zoom in faster than jetbike thus ensuring T1 charges if they want whereupon bikers require good luck and co-operation from enemy.
Also 80 S4 -1(1/6 wounds -4) vs 36 S4 -0 attacks for stealers vs bikes. Warboss isn't that much better than broodlord if that. And how you get them same vs better armoured when that's where stealers have advantage due to better save. And against soft targets stealers have talons for reroll 1's to hit. Both hits on same 3+ so not even there.
T3 5+:
20 stealers: 31 dead with rending claws, 34.57 with scything talons
12 bikes: 10,66 with h2h, 6.2222 with guns=16.88 in total. Warboss isn't that much better than broodlord(oh and broodlord would up above casualties).
T4 2+:
stealers: 13,33333244315556 with rending claws. 5,185185184977778 with talons just for completion though you would have to be complete noob to use talons here
bikes: 1,555555555337778 with guns, 1,99999999198 with h2h for about 3.5 wounds. Again warboss doesn't compensate. Relative gap between bikes and stealers just goes up the better safe you have(no wonder since stealers have AP and bikes don't)
Bikes aren't something you use for h2h with orks. They are not h2h. They are harashment unit. They go around taking objectives and attacking tiny backfield units. They don't have punch to hurt anything serious. 20 stealers meanwhile even without broodlord will munch through units. If you use bikes don't go charging in expecting them to kill anything but chaff. Killing tough targets isn't even their job.
Next time you bring the salt be sure to read carefully, it looks bad.
1) yes they zoom, at 2cp cost. Yes they can charge 1t some chaff that is deployed at the edge of the deployment zone ,IF you are deployed at the edge of your own. And leave the broodlord buttnaked in open field .
2) The bikes shoots, the genestealers don't, as I wrote on the above example.
3) Dunno how many Terminators or equal you meet in your meta, but if you do, do not charge them with anything just as thought.
4) Did you even read the rest of the post or you just rage mathammered ? VS MEQ,GEQ,VEQ?
boy, you get this heated here, must be a pain to play on the field against you
koooaei wrote: Flashgitz seem to be a tad overpriced. Besides, i'm not sure that they will benefit from a freeboota trait if they're inside a vehivle.
I had an interesting thought on this. RAW, units in a transport recieve all modifiers and restrictions of the vehicle itself. So you could take a Freebooters truck, load it with deathskulls tankbustas, and they would inherit the +1 from the trukk
koooaei wrote: Flashgitz seem to be a tad overpriced. Besides, i'm not sure that they will benefit from a freeboota trait if they're inside a vehivle.
I had an interesting thought on this. RAW, units in a transport recieve all modifiers and restrictions of the vehicle itself. So you could take a Freebooters truck, load it with deathskulls tankbustas, and they would inherit the +1 from the trukk
Just to keep the Freebooterz topic together. I want to know if a unit of Flashgitz wipes out a unit, then rolls their 6 for their show off ability, do they count as a friendly unit gaining the +1 to their hit rolls?
I rolled some dice because it's easier than math and it looks good. I'm thinking they are Primaris killers. If the Primaris are in units of 5, it could be really solid. Unless you have some maths that say it's not or what ever. I have 15 flashgitz and plan to take 3 mobs of 5 in trukks. Just need to sort out the HQ for that detachment.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Does anyone know yet if Nobs are keeping their ammo runts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like runts are on the point list, but you can only take up to 2 now?
¨
It's 1 runt per 5 nobz now I believe
I think GW really overestimated the effectiveness of grot shields, equating it to shield drones, which is why they got rid of the option for Flashgitz and (presumably) Nobz as well. Problem is, we can only use grot shields once per turn and from only one source of shooting.
Great, so the grot shield only eats shooting from one enemy unit? Could be useful if you're playing against a punisher or something, but pretty useless if your enemy is MSU...
Was hoping to have a turn of keeping the whole army safe until the enemy had chewed through 30 grots
DoomMouse wrote: Great, so the grot shield only eats shooting from one enemy unit? Could be useful if you're playing against a punisher or something, but pretty useless if your enemy is MSU...
Was hoping to have a turn of keeping the whole army safe until the enemy had chewed through 30 grots
Grotshield a castellan or bane blade and then cackle maniacally while the lord of war tries to chew threw 90 points of gretchin.
MSU isn't really a thing in 8th due to rule of three and first turn roll.
DoomMouse wrote: Great, so the grot shield only eats shooting from one enemy unit? Could be useful if you're playing against a punisher or something, but pretty useless if your enemy is MSU...
Was hoping to have a turn of keeping the whole army safe until the enemy had chewed through 30 grots
I'm about 80% certain that's how it works. When an enemy unit declares one of your units as its target, and if you have a squad of grots within 3'' or something, and the grot unit is closer, any wounds caused by that shooting squad get transferred to the grots on a 2+. This means only one enemy unit can be affected by it per turn.
DoomMouse wrote: Great, so the grot shield only eats shooting from one enemy unit? Could be useful if you're playing against a punisher or something, but pretty useless if your enemy is MSU...
Was hoping to have a turn of keeping the whole army safe until the enemy had chewed through 30 grots
I'm about 80% certain that's how it works. When an enemy unit declares one of your units as its target, and if you have a squad of grots within 3'' or something, and the grot unit is closer, any wounds caused by that shooting squad get transferred to the grots on a 2+. This means only one enemy unit can be affected by it per turn.
It says "until the end of the phase, roll a D6 each time a model from that unit loses a wound..." So it protects one unit the entire shooting phase, or until the grots run out ;-)
DoomMouse wrote: Great, so the grot shield only eats shooting from one enemy unit? Could be useful if you're playing against a punisher or something, but pretty useless if your enemy is MSU...
Was hoping to have a turn of keeping the whole army safe until the enemy had chewed through 30 grots
I'm about 80% certain that's how it works. When an enemy unit declares one of your units as its target, and if you have a squad of grots within 3'' or something, and the grot unit is closer, any wounds caused by that shooting squad get transferred to the grots on a 2+. This means only one enemy unit can be affected by it per turn.
It says "until the end of the phase, roll a D6 each time a model from that unit loses a wound..." So it protects one unit the entire shooting phase, or until the grots run out ;-)
gungo wrote: Morkanaut with kff with grot screen...
Morkanaut gives everyone around it a 5+ save and grots eat all the shooting on a 2+.
Grots can only eat shooting from one source; so focus fire is still somewhat effective.
nope the unit beeing shoot at is targeted by the strat. as long as there are gretchin within 6" (and gretchin are closer to the firing enemy) they can pass off wounds. doesnt matter who's shooting them, it lasts for one phase
gungo wrote: Morkanaut with kff with grot screen...
Morkanaut gives everyone around it a 5+ save and grots eat all the shooting on a 2+.
Grots can only eat shooting from one source; so focus fire is still somewhat effective.
nope the unit beeing shoot at is targeted by the strat. as long as there are gretchin within 6" (and gretchin are closer to the firing enemy) they can pass off wounds. doesnt matter who's shooting them, it lasts for one phase
Oh thyats good to know. THese discussions are hard without a book to peek at
Shrapnelbait wrote: There was a big discussion on trukks and their worth before. What are the thoughts now that they are reduced to 59(?)pts, or 64 with the BS.
At 64 points you can use them as mobile walls. 6 points per T6 4+/6+++ wound. Drive up in front of an enemy unit and just park there, blocking their LOS.
For more fun, put something in them.
12 boyz, with included tankbusta bomb or (for a CP) 60 grenade shots with DDD if anything approaches.
What are people's thoughts on killing knights? I was thinking a teleported gork to the face would have a decent shot.
Thinking about my army, if I'm going to shelve the kmks I've got a big gap which needs to be filled. Tank bustas look good with strats, I've only got 5 so will probably go up to 10.
I was experimenting a bit with listbuilding (too early-stage to post) and stumbled on a problem: what unit is best to deal with infantry holed up in ruins? My local meta is full of ruin-hoggers so this could become a problem... My first thought would be the Snazzwagon, any other contenders? Mek Gunz? Lootas? Flash Gitz? It's mostly for games around 1k.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrtomski wrote: What are people's thoughts on killing knights? I was thinking a teleported gork to the face would have a decent shot.
Would be nice against most knights, but the Valiant and Castellan probably put out too much Overwatch for that to work. Valiant auto-roasts you with the flame cannon and a Castellan with quad Meltagun and Volcano Lance isn't something I'd want to charge either. Unless you can get some Boyz to eat Overwatch first.
Pandabeer wrote: I was experimenting a bit with listbuilding (too early-stage to post) and stumbled on a problem: what unit is best to deal with infantry holed up in ruins? My local meta is full of ruin-hoggers so this could become a problem... My first thought would be the Snazzwagon, any other contenders? Mek Gunz? Lootas? Flash Gitz? It's mostly for games around 1k.
I have a very similar problem in my meta. Snazzwagon is one idea. Trukk Nobs another. Dakkajet does OK in my experience.
mrtomski wrote: What are people's thoughts on killing knights? I was thinking a teleported gork to the face would have a decent shot.
Thinking about my army, if I'm going to shelve the kmks I've got a big gap which needs to be filled. Tank bustas look good with strats, I've only got 5 so will probably go up to 10.
Tankbustas in trukks is very problematic, as they get their trukks shot out 1st turn and you have to hoof it. Orks go 2nd a lot vs knights, so that's bad.
The only good thing about this is it is impossible for 1 knight to kill both the trukk and it's contents. Because of the split fire rules, the knight must declare all targets before the first shot is fired. At that point, the tankbustas are not on the board and can't be targeted.
Of course, the second knight can finish off another trukk and kill the bustas.
You might leave 1 squad out of los and dajump them (including maximum squiggs) to work down 1 knight. It probably won't kill it, though, you will need other shooting. Smasha guns maybe?
keep at least 1 unit of tank bustas in deep strike reserve to wound the 2nd knight on turn 2.
mrtomski wrote: What are people's thoughts on killing knights? I was thinking a teleported gork to the face would have a decent shot.
Thinking about my army, if I'm going to shelve the kmks I've got a big gap which needs to be filled. Tank bustas look good with strats, I've only got 5 so will probably go up to 10.
I have to run the numbers but maybe 10x badmoon/deffskulls tankbustas with the grenade strat and max bomb squigs. 3+ to hit rerollable, d3 hits, str8 ap-2 d6 plus the 2 squigs @ 2+ to hit str8 ap-2 d6.... exploding 6s and I believe there is a strat to shoot 2x a turn for a unit.
I got to see the strategems and effects to do the numbers but if this unit gets to throw 2x grenades 2x you are looking at 30-40 wounds on the knight.
So based on the wording of the telly porta strat it looks like the unit inside comes free. So what should you take inside a gorkanaut being tellyported? 3 killsaw MANZ? Regular nobs? 5 flashgitz with an ammo runt? Something else?
Ugh, really bummed to hear that Mek Guns and Kans aren't getting the clan cultures...
REALLY hoping that there's a mistake there, especially since the Mek Guns got a point increase.
I guess at this point there's nothing to do but wait for an FAQ for final word.
I've also been toying with the concept of a Flashgitz battlewagon. I ran it a few times at the beginning of 8th, and found it actually didn't need to move much after Turn 1.
Badrukk, 2 units of Flash Gitz, and a Battlewagon fits a Spearhead perfectly too, thought it might be hard to proc the Freeboota bonus with those alone.
correct me if i'm wrong... but wasnt i FAQ'd so benefits from the vehicle regarding moving and shooting also work for the transported units? i.e. you can move a battlewagon and the gitz inside dont suffer penalties for firing heavy weapons?
I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.
So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".
Can someone explain to me why the Bubblechucka is 30pts? I'm serious, only been playing for a year, thinking maybe I missed something. With 1d6 for each of its stats, it's never going to be strong enough to damage vehicles, the most it will do is overkill one or two infantry a turn. Is it supposed to be used against elite infantry like Terminators that don't have storm shields?
mrtomski wrote: What are people's thoughts on killing knights? I was thinking a teleported gork to the face would have a decent shot.
Thinking about my army, if I'm going to shelve the kmks I've got a big gap which needs to be filled. Tank bustas look good with strats, I've only got 5 so will probably go up to 10.
This is a bit of a discussion point so I'll address how I'm doing it.
I'm bringing 15 tank bustas (no squiggs) in a battlewagon, the remainder slots are for some HQ. The battlewagon is evil sunz, and the tankbustas are badmoons.
I have a lot of flexibility with this.
1) Deploy aggressively underneath the KFF, pray to go first, move forward, shoot.
2) Deploy the BW very far back and out range non volcano cannons. I can then advance 13"+D6+1 and hopefully get into 24" range to shoot. Then use the evil sunz stratagem to move my BW back out of range if possible.
3) Deep strike the BW, clear a zone for turn 2 to drop down and shoot the target guaranteed.
4) If the BW dies (beacuse I went second), and the tankbustas don't (like for eg i deployed out of range of infantry mowers) then I can still da-jump my tankbustas.
4b) Or I can choose to deploy them inside the BW and get out before da jumping them into a high ruin or some other place that I couldn't get them in use turn 1 if they were inside the BW.
15 tank bustas with 5+ DDD, shooting twice as bad moon, is NOT enough to kill a 3++ castellan in one go, but it will go a long way in doing so and hopefully my traktor cannons do the rest.
edit: Oh I forgot to mention, that the weirdboys are a bit of a backup plan in case I manage to get through the screens I'll still be super smiting it. /edit
My current list:
Spoiler:
Red = evil sunz, Yellow = bad moons, Green = blood axes. My warlord will be a CP farmer weirdboy, with a finkin cap on the wartrike to give him +1dmg and rerolls. Maybe I pay for an extra relic and upgrade the warboss to headwoppa. edit2: kunning but brutal (i think this is the name for redeploy warlord) might be best for the wartrike wearing finking cap, that gives me even more flexibility to redeploy the BW depending on who goes first. D3 extra units means at least 1 can redeploy, and all i need is the battlewagon position to change.
Dude I love the list, we have clearly gone very similar directions. I'm not sold on the gorka, but if that's what you're after go ahead. I'd take a look at the new megatrakk scrapjets, I think you can buy three for the 1 gorka, and I think that would give your army substantially more versatility.
Personally, with the 5 point BC over 13 point PK, I'm taking BC every time, especially since you're bringing 20 tank bustas. My weird recommendation is that you are not maximizing your stratagems splitting up your tankbustas like this. Might you consider snakebite for that detachment instead? I think FNP/ramshackle trukks are legit, and you can 3cp monster hunter with all 20 tank bustas at once (probably comparable to reroll wounds for 10, actually maybe not). I think this durability outweighs the 6++, and you can squeeze in some more dakka that benefit from this stratagem after you drop the SAG mek.
I think the 80 point SAG mek for character sniping is a trap, I fell into this as well, but statistically its not going to do what you want IMO. Plus.... people will LOS their squishy characters.
edit: also note lukky stikk only buffs WS for characters, you might want to reconsider that option. I think lukky stikk is for a barage of painboyz and weirdboys, or something. It's pretty bad :/
RedNoak wrote: komandoz. got cheaper can take burnas. either drop em as MSU's T2 from reserve or teleport a big blob of em T1
+1 to wound if enemy is in cover
+1 to wound vs cover comes less in play in the presumable scenario he was wondering that is stuff is in 2nd floor. 1st floor isn't issue. Shooting sucks anyway so cover isn't big deal so just go and hack them to pieces. Problem comes with 2nd level hiders who have 1++(with no 1 always fail) vs h2h thanks to GW making it so hard to even legally assault upper floors. +1 to wound doesn't help if you can't charge!
Traktor gun battery could help here. Auto hit so whole bunch of them(18 if you can afford it) of them should clear enough of a hole to any unit hiding to assault remnants.
RedNoak wrote: komandoz. got cheaper can take burnas. either drop em as MSU's T2 from reserve or teleport a big blob of em T1
+1 to wound if enemy is in cover
+1 to wound vs cover comes less in play in the presumable scenario he was wondering that is stuff is in 2nd floor. 1st floor isn't issue. Shooting sucks anyway so cover isn't big deal so just go and hack them to pieces. Problem comes with 2nd level hiders who have 1++(with no 1 always fail) vs h2h thanks to GW making it so hard to even legally assault upper floors. +1 to wound doesn't help if you can't charge!
Traktor gun battery could help here. Auto hit so whole bunch of them(18 if you can afford it) of them should clear enough of a hole to any unit hiding to assault remnants.
Traktor guns, as great as they are, probably are not good enough to bring 18 IMO. Quick math says thats 810 points, for 18 autohit shots. I mean yeah, I dont know if that's very versatile. Probably doesn't kill a castellan, or a 30man cultist squad.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Can someone explain to me why the Bubblechucka is 30pts? I'm serious, only been playing for a year, thinking maybe I missed something. With 1d6 for each of its stats, it's never going to be strong enough to damage vehicles, the most it will do is overkill one or two infantry a turn. Is it supposed to be used against elite infantry like Terminators that don't have storm shields?
GW figures "it can be 6666! AWESOME!".
Funny thing it wasn't good before and yet took nerfbat. Before by applying lowest to least needed it used to get at least semi decent shot so was semi-okayish against 1 wound elitish infantry if you were tired of spamming KMK's but now? No point. Traktors, traktors, traktors.
RedNoak wrote: komandoz. got cheaper can take burnas. either drop em as MSU's T2 from reserve or teleport a big blob of em T1
+1 to wound if enemy is in cover
+1 to wound vs cover comes less in play in the presumable scenario he was wondering that is stuff is in 2nd floor. 1st floor isn't issue. Shooting sucks anyway so cover isn't big deal so just go and hack them to pieces. Problem comes with 2nd level hiders who have 1++(with no 1 always fail) vs h2h thanks to GW making it so hard to even legally assault upper floors. +1 to wound doesn't help if you can't charge!
Traktor gun battery could help here. Auto hit so whole bunch of them(18 if you can afford it) of them should clear enough of a hole to any unit hiding to assault remnants.
Traktor guns, as great as they are, probably are not good enough to bring 18 IMO. Quick math says thats 810 points, for 18 autohit shots. I mean yeah, I dont know if that's very versatile. Probably doesn't kill a castellan, or a 30man cultist squad.
You don't plan to kill 30 cultist with it. If you fire vs those it would be killing couple models from top of ruin so you can charge them with something that's actually good at killing them. Or even better do that for -1 to hit infantry which generally are nightmare to deal with.
15 wounds to 4++ castellan btw. Return fire hurts a bit but as each gun is individual that helps.
Oh and 36 wounds to venoms. Yey. Those are generally nightmare for orks to deal. Pack total of 3 splinter cannons, -1 to hit, 5++, flat impossible to assault. TAKE THAT! Too bad 36e/kannon :(
I'm with you tneva, they are good, but when you're not vs an eldar list they are meh. You probably want 4-8, enough to kill a flyer in a turn, and be happy that if there are no flyers you didnt waste too many points.
mrtomski wrote: Boyz where can I find the tractor kannon rules? Everyone is talking about them but I haven't seen a leak for them..
I'm pretty sure this is it: 45 points. defensive stats are same as index, no more grots.
traktor kannon is 48" autohit. Str8. Ap-2. DmgD6. Heavy 1.
vs vehicle FLYERS roll two D6 for dmg and take the highest. If it kills a vehicle flyer, it automatically explodes.
hollow one wrote: I'm with you tneva, they are good, but when you're not vs an eldar list they are meh. You probably want 4-8, enough to kill a flyer in a turn, and be happy that if there are no flyers you didnt waste too many points.
VS flyers it's just extra wound though so not that big of a difference(okay the auto explode is also nice but I have never had much luck with those even in having things die where anybody would even be in range if it explodes! Barring my own vehicles T1 as orks fill up deployment zone pretty much completely...). Even without flyers(which still are btw fairly common. Fly keyword is even with the nerf probably best keyword you can have) there should be plenty of targets out there.
Okay maybe 18 is bit excess(certainly bit of a skew though tank heavy army would hate that) but still big battery of them will likely be staple of competive armies replacing KMK's.
I might be bit biased here though as dark eldars have been army that gives me most grief so far so idea of having something that can actually hurt them sounds fun But with -1/5++/3 splinter cannon/impossible to assault models forming up core if you can't have shooting that can take that down you are looking at quite likely 0 kills whatsoever(hey h2h is 100% impossible so if you don't shoot it obviously results in no casualties...) which is infuriating. Especially when they kill anything orks have without effort. Vehicles? boom. Infantry? Even anti-tank list wipes out all infantry ork horde in no time.
So, Nobz with kustom shootas are 16 ppm, Nobz with Big Choppas are 19 ppm, and the Trukk is 64 points? Thats promising. There's some good things in this codex, some disappointments and some ommisions. It looks like it is better than terrible, which is a plus in my book.
pismakron wrote: So, Nobz with kustom shootas are 16 ppm, Nobz with Big Choppas are 19 ppm, and the Trukk is 64 points? Thats promising. There's some good things in this codex, some disappointments and some ommisions. It looks like it is better than terrible, which is a plus in my book.
Yea I think this is going to be decent. Nobs with Big Choppas in Trukk. Secretly hope your opponent kills Trukk as you reach their lines so you can loot it. 3+ save Nobs sound legit.
Interestingly you might as well move your Traktor cannons each turn because they don't care about puny negative hit modifiers for heavy weapons.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly you might as well move your Traktor cannons each turn because they don't care about puny negative hit modifiers for heavy weapons.
I'm real tempted to put 10 nobz with big choppas and kustom shootas in a trukk with 2 ammo runts.
That should total up to 281 points including the trukk (&big shoota, wrecking ball)
They are cheap enough to not be an all eggs in one basket but if they actually make it to the front they're going to be an issue. The 20 points for all the kustom shootas seem pretty decent to spam out 40 shots every turn they're not in combat. I would need to build way more nobz with big choppas though..
Sidenote, what the hell is the point of the power stabba now? 2 points cheaper than the big choppa and you get an additional AP but lost +2S and D2. They should've dropped a point or been given AP-3 (and then maybe gone up a point) IMO
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly you might as well move your Traktor cannons each turn because they don't care about puny negative hit modifiers for heavy weapons.
haha, good note.
Ooo that's nice. I don't even CARE if that's competive or not. I just want to make those dark eldar bastards SUFFER!
(oh and 30% chance of one shotting those triple damned venoms and if they bunch up in tall place(read more than 1" tall) so that they are impossible to charge mortal wounds to nearby making odds of blowing next easier etc etc. DIE DIE DIE!
That's really nice. And our kannonz are vehiclesz so don't suffer poisoning so much. Still very easy to remove with 5+armor but at least 48 range is neat.
On the other hand, trukkbustas are even better than before. Pretty sure one squad can take down 2 venoms per shooting phase with the ddd strat hitting on 5s with extra shots.
What do people this about deff dreads, 105 points with 4 klaws. That's 6 s10 ap3 3d attacks, will Teleporta you can give it a 3d6 charge so that's almost certain to get in, with extra 1d3 mortal wounds.
Given it's probably going to be a suicide run if you are charging a knight, but decent chance to put out some dmg, worth it in points and cps though?
My thought is that the fact it's only 105 points is the saving grace, but the cp cost might be too high..
koooaei wrote: That's really nice. And our kannonz are vehiclesz so don't suffer poisoning so much. Still very easy to remove with 5+armor but at least 48 range is neat.
On the other hand, trukkbustas are even better than before. Pretty sure one squad can take down 2 venoms per shooting phase with the ddd strat hitting on 5s with extra shots.
5+? Thought it was 4+. Did that TOO get nerfed?
Still. 12 of them with 5++ from KFF would be pretty hard to remove especially as they are lone units. Takes 2 in average to take 1 venom out though if they pack together top of some stinking tower or something you can use the auto crash to your advantage. 5 wounds to 1? Don't bother shooting at it. Target next one. 3+ to wound, 5++, if pass 30% chance of one shotting which would take down the wounded one.
too bad 28e even if I buy them from UK. I soooooooo want to have revenge on DE even if it means creating list that loses against others! GRRRR! REVENGE!
(yeah I hate DE)
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mrtomski wrote: What do people this about deff dreads, 105 points with 4 klaws. That's 6 s10 ap3 3d attacks, will Teleporta you can give it a 3d6 charge so that's almost certain to get in, with extra 1d3 mortal wounds.
Given it's probably going to be a suicide run if you are charging a knight, but decent chance to put out some dmg, worth it in points and cps though?
My thought is that the fact it's only 105 points is the saving grace, but the cp cost might be too high..
Tag team 3 of them with evil sun trait which means reliable charge 3d6 charge or not. Averaging 20 wounds + mortals against knight. Maybe not even bother with the 3d6 charge thing to save on CP. 8" with rerolls is pretty reliable anyway.
Teleporting evil sun walkers will be leading idea in the codex anyway
Once deployed they act as individual models right, so you'd 9nly get the 3d6 charge on one of them. Still I guess since they start as 1 unit you could put 2 in a Teleporta. Guessing 3 is over 20 pm.
mrtomski wrote: Once deployed they act as individual models right, so you'd 9nly get the 3d6 charge on one of them. Still I guess since they start as 1 unit you could put 2 in a Teleporta. Guessing 3 is over 20 pm.
Which is why they are evil sun. 8 on 2d6 with rerolls for both or 1 dice as needed is fairly reliable. So you could even just forget the 3d6 thing and save CP(say send in another trio of them instead)
And with that much point changes odds are good PL dropped at least 1 for squadron of 3.
mrtomski wrote: Once deployed they act as individual models right, so you'd 9nly get the 3d6 charge on one of them. Still I guess since they start as 1 unit you could put 2 in a Teleporta. Guessing 3 is over 20 pm.
Which is why they are evil sun. 8 on 2d6 with rerolls for both or 1 dice as needed is fairly reliable. So you could even just forget the 3d6 thing and save CP(say send in another trio of them instead)
And with that much point changes odds are good PL dropped at least 1 for squadron of 3.
Deffdreads are 5PL each now..
By the way, on an unrelated note.. A megatrakk skrapjet is 90 points but has two twin big shootas. Those are 10 points each, so it's really 110 points? The shokkjump dragsta is 108 points but has a rokkit launcha and those are 12 points, so it's really 120 points? Boomdakka snazzwagon has a big shoota, so 95+5 then..
Weapons do need to be added so unless they are in codex specifically listed "wargear included" like special characters(unlikely) and the unit entry says 90 pts with 2 10 pts guns then it's 110 pts total.
mrtomski wrote: Once deployed they act as individual models right, so you'd 9nly get the 3d6 charge on one of them. Still I guess since they start as 1 unit you could put 2 in a Teleporta. Guessing 3 is over 20 pm.
Which is why they are evil sun. 8 on 2d6 with rerolls for both or 1 dice as needed is fairly reliable. So you could even just forget the 3d6 thing and save CP(say send in another trio of them instead)
And with that much point changes odds are good PL dropped at least 1 for squadron of 3.
I had a glimpse at the PL through a video of the codex and it was 5PL for 1 dread and 16 for 3, so definitely viable. I was planning on either teleporting the 3 deff dreads or using a wartrike to advance and charge with them. Evil sunz either way to ensure the charges.
Advance and charge means T2 charge earliest and them being made out of paper for current meta means waaaay too risky. T2 charge either way so better keep 'em safe off board. That way you can at least get to shoot them.
When armies are created with principle "can you 1 shot knight? No? you suck" 8 T7 3+ wounds is nothing.
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lord_blackfang wrote: The 108 point cost is a dead giveaway that you're supposed to add the 12 for the rokkit, yes.
108 too cheap for you? Or how it would be dead giveaway. Not like things aren't odd points all the time.
There is images of chapter approved with the looted wagon but more then likely it will be for powerlevel non matched play games only.
There is also word on Spikey bits which I believe is a codex reviewer that the Mek guns are mixed units and do have kultur rules. Which will make this codex decent.
Without kultur rules that majority of Mek guns are overpriced. (Outside traktor)
I think our codex is decent with Mek gun kulturs and index units but once the index is gone we will lose a lot of krutches.
I can’t see taking any painboy but the one on bike. It’s significantly better as is the warboss on bike. Both of those are force miltipliers that help infantry and bikes.
Pandabeer wrote: I was experimenting a bit with listbuilding (too early-stage to post) and stumbled on a problem: what unit is best to deal with infantry holed up in ruins? My local meta is full of ruin-hoggers so this could become a problem... My first thought would be the Snazzwagon, any other contenders? Mek Gunz? Lootas? Flash Gitz? It's mostly for games around 1k.
I have a very similar problem in my meta. Snazzwagon is one idea. Trukk Nobs another. Dakkajet does OK in my experience.
Keen to hear other thoughts on this though.
Burna bommer might be an idea as well. The bomb usually takes out half the unit and supa-shoota and the twin big shoota with got gunner kills enough to make moral fatal in many cases. In any case, you usually create a hole big enough to move up.
One of the streams said that you can buy additional burna missiles now, I wonder whether they have changed. I wouldn't even want a single one under the current rules.
If you are not unwilling to fight cheese with cheese, run them over with a deff rolla. The turret is usually high enough to get within 1" of the first floor, in the old GW ruins you don't even need a turret - the battlewagon itself is more than 3" high.
gungo wrote: There is images of chapter approved with the looted wagon but more then likely it will be for powerlevel non matched play games only.
There is also word on Spikey bits which I believe is a codex reviewer that the Mek guns are mixed units and do have kultur rules. Which will make this codex decent.
Mek gun datasheet clearly has gretchin keyword. The spikey bit reviewer is very likely wrong. Not like they are gods after all
gungo wrote: There is images of chapter approved with the looted wagon but more then likely it will be for powerlevel non matched play games only.
There is also word on Spikey bits which I believe is a codex reviewer that the Mek guns are mixed units and do have kultur rules. Which will make this codex decent.
Mek gun datasheet clearly has gretchin keyword. The spikey bit reviewer is very likely wrong. Not like they are gods after all
It’s possible goatboy is a decent competitive ork player and appears to have review copies so I’d wait til I see the codex. And I appreciate your battle reports but you’ve been wrong a few times already on this prerelease(the Gretchin screen being one). Personally I’m hoping you are wrong again as I don’t think Mek guns are great without the kultur rules. But you are probably right since Mek guns have no ork handlers so shouldn’t have kulturs but then again we have several vehicles with grot gunners and kulturs soooo...
I didn't claim to know how grot shield works. I specifically asked how it works so how can you claim I was wrong when I was asking how it works :lol:
But we have seen image of mek gun datasheet. It has gretchin keyword. Go check yourself if you don't believe but would be weird not to have exception to the rule not be in datasheet if unit is supposed to have exception to the rule.
Now that the codex is out, and I'm pretty sure that we have at least a half decent chance at winning a game, I need to expand my small ork horde. Usually play small, 1k games, (so 'nauts are not really an option) but I like mixing it up a bit and not staying predictable. Can you guys give me a hand and let me know what you consider an auto include, or most important:
Do not yet have:
Big Mek with KFF MANZ any of the mek gunz (looking at you traktor)
bikes
stormboyz
Only have:
4 burnas
4 lootas
5 kanz
1 standard battlewagon
will be getting Start Collecting box for 1 Dread and painboy
will be getting single wierdboy model
5 homemade kommandos
5 boyz with rokkits (homemade tankbustas)
1 trukk and boyz
So, nobz with bigchoppas and a deepstrike. Really choppy for relatively cheap. What about the ammo runts?
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pismakron wrote: So which is better? Meganobz at 35, shoota-kans at 45, or the shoota-dread at 95?
That's a tough question to answer. But deepstriking meganobz are gona be decent to good. Especially if you push some saws in there. Not sure about power level but 10 double saw manz will one-shot a knight if they don't suffer overwatch. And if they make a charge of course.
Footslogging is not clear yet. Depending on how grot shields work.
3 deff dreads are gona be a good pick for deepstrike. They will likely fit into 20 pl requirement and will end up as 3 separate squads with around 70% of making the charge each. If run as evil sunz of course. I'd not waste points on shootas. They are cheap enough to max out their klaws. Each dread will deal 6, and rarely 9 wounds to a knight. Ain't bad for merely 115 pts or so.
It's a bit blurry in the video but I think burna boyz changed from being able to take up to three spannas to "for every 5 burna boyz 1 can be a spanner". That would be a bit of a shame since I think there could be some mileage out of a 5 burna boy unit where 3 are spanners armed with the new and improved kustom mega blastas. D6 damage is nothing to scoff at.
Not that I'm going to run them personally but even a cheap deathskulls 4 burna boyz and 1 spanner with the KMB might be a decent idea since that weapon allows you to use all those rerolls
DoomMouse wrote: What do people reckon are our best MSU options for deathskulls re-rolls?
Could see spamming trukks with rokkits containing boyz mobs with 1 rokkit and 1 klaw. I believe that'd be 167pts for some annoying units to deal with.
Lone meks with KMBs?
Could do lone rokkit warbuggies from the index too? Lone koptas with kopta rockets?
I like the idea of orks that essentially have guiliman re-rolls, even if you have to take some weird stuff to achieve it!
The traktor Kannon (assuming it gets Kulture traits) would be good for this, as it would maximize the auto hit into good wound and damage potentials.
SAG Meks will get better than mediocre considering how many random elements the SAG has.
Kannon shells and Grabbin Klaw on the battelwagon
All of these models would also get 6++ which might let their multi wound profile tank a few more wounds
I mean the big mek with SAG is an incredibly scary sniper with the deathskulls warlord trait IMO. Can snipe characters, gets to reroll a hit, wound & damage die. I wouldn't be comfortable standing in the open with anything knowing he's there, especially since the potential mortal wounds are now in addition to the normal damage.
So; the strategem "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" gives an Ork vehicle with FLY +1 to hit against other units with FLY.
Is there something we can do with that and a Chinork Warcopta+10passengers?
Due to the way Open Topped work, it can pass off that +1 to-hit to its 10 passengers. - I'm not sure if we have a 10 model shooting unit that's strong enough to make use of it; but it's fun to think about possibilities.
fe40k wrote: So; the strategem "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" gives an Ork vehicle with FLY +1 to hit against other units with FLY.
Is there something we can do with that and a Chinork Warcopta+10passengers?
Due to the way Open Topped work, it can pass off that +1 to-hit to its 10 passengers. - I'm not sure if we have a 10 model shooting unit that's strong enough to make use of it; but it's fun to think about possibilities.
Hmm, that's a great little sneaky taktik if it indeed does work like that. Fill it with tankbustas and fire at vehicles with FLY that aren't hard to hit like hovering things or repulsors. Easily worth 1CP in a lot of situations then
I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
Kans not getting Klan traits killed my interest in running a Kan wall, shame really. Was intending to buy at least 6 and maybe 9 of them but I guess I'll just get Dredds instead. I will have to wait for the codex but do you guys Shooty BW's will be decent with rumored (disproven?) BS4+ and re shoot one gun? If so I'll get 2 of them but if the 4+ was a lie again will not bother with them either.
Learning the above put a bit of a damper on my enthusiasm for this Codex but on the other hand I'm glad I didn't go out and buy the Kans a few weeks ago like I initially planned.
fe40k wrote: So; the strategem "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" gives an Ork vehicle with FLY +1 to hit against other units with FLY.
Is there something we can do with that and a Chinork Warcopta+10passengers?
Due to the way Open Topped work, it can pass off that +1 to-hit to its 10 passengers. - I'm not sure if we have a 10 model shooting unit that's strong enough to make use of it; but it's fun to think about possibilities.
Hmm, that's a great little sneaky taktik if it indeed does work like that. Fill it with tankbustas and fire at vehicles with FLY that aren't hard to hit like hovering things or repulsors. Easily worth 1CP in a lot of situations then
My first thought was Tankbustas as well. You could go 8 Tankbustas and 2 squigs; that weakens the power of strategems, but could help against ground vehicles. Alternatively, you could go 10 tankbustas, and have a bunch of re-rolling +1 rokkits; which could couple with "More Dakka", and potentially the "Shoot twice" stratagem from Bad Moonz - I'm not sure how well the math works out versus other options in both points, and CP.
Speaking of options, another factor in this concept is Kultur choice. Bad Moonz offers the most in terms of raw rolling output, between both RR1's and Shoot Twice stratagem; but that limits you to deep striking (which has its own competitions), or finding a way to make 16"move+24" range work, since advancing could really suck in terms of hit penalties. -- The other viable option is Evil Sunz, just so you have the option of zooming up the board at 16"move+8"advance+24"range. You lose RR1's and Shoot Twice, but you're not obligated to deep strike.
I think it's going to come down to whether or not you plan on deep striking, want the option open at the start of the match, and how much CP your list has/can spare.
Two other units you could put in the Chinork Warkopta are; 10 Lootas, for d3x10+2d3 Autocannon equivalents, all for the price of 170+80 points. You'd be having massive hit penalties unless you used the "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" or "More Dakka", to hit on 5+. The problem with this plan, is well, Lootas; and the fact that you have to declare "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" before you get to roll for the Deffguns amount of shots. -- The second unit you could use is 10 Flash Gits; add in the Chinork Warkopta with 2x Rattler Kannon and you have... 300+112 points of models that yield 30+4d6 S5, AP-2, D* damage; that hit on 5+/6+. Throw in "Long Uncontrolled Bursts"/"More Dakka", and "Shoot Twice", and well... that's a hell of a lot of RR1, hitting on 4+/5+, generating new shots attacks.
Ultimately, it's going to come down to the place you want your flying dakkabus to have; how prevalent fliers are in your meta (there's quite a bit of FLY in general though), and how many points+CP you're willing to invest to this strategy.
Bad Moonz is great, but expensive in CP. Evil Sunz is more generalist, weaker at final burst, but more mobile and doesn't need to deep strike to be effective.
EDIT: Oh, right; Flash Gits don't get a Klan - or if they do, it has to be Freebootaz. Well, there goes that plan - shame, it actually sounded fun. I should know better...
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
When you deep strike in a unit of three deffdreads, thats the point where they are "deployed" right? So they can all charge seperate targets then?
Pandabeer wrote: I was experimenting a bit with listbuilding (too early-stage to post) and stumbled on a problem: what unit is best to deal with infantry holed up in ruins? My local meta is full of ruin-hoggers so this could become a problem... My first thought would be the Snazzwagon, any other contenders? Mek Gunz? Lootas? Flash Gitz? It's mostly for games around 1k.
I have a very similar problem in my meta. Snazzwagon is one idea. Trukk Nobs another. Dakkajet does OK in my experience.
Keen to hear other thoughts on this though.
Trukknobz with Kombiskorcha? Seems expensive... unless you mean going for CC which is hard with having to charge up floors. I like the Dakkajet suggestion but me playing on a 4x4 board means that every Lascannon and Missile launcher on the board is going to get aimed at it Another though would maybe be the Gunwagon... overkill on normal Marines but a very good Primaris deleter. But also prohibitively expensive probably. I really hope it has that BS4... Snazzwagon seems to have a good middle ground between amount of shots and shot strength/ AP to clear infantry, and you can probably get 2 for the price of a kitted out Gunwagon. Of course it's also going to go down twice as fast
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
When you deep strike in a unit of three deffdreads, thats the point where they are "deployed" right? So they can all charge seperate targets then?
Yup once deployed they split so they have to start close to each other, but after that they can go wild. Deathskulls would be awesome on them on every level, but the 20% increase to making their charge is too good to turn down as it makes their charge reliable.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
When you deep strike in a unit of three deffdreads, thats the point where they are "deployed" right? So they can all charge seperate targets then?
Yup once deployed they split so they have to start close to each other, but after that they can go wild. Deathskulls would be awesome on them on every level, but the 20% increase to making their charge is too good to turn down as it makes their charge reliable.
Awesome, that sounds really interesting, even if its just for fun.
Only problem is Id have to drop a small fortune on deff dreads
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
When you deep strike in a unit of three deffdreads, thats the point where they are "deployed" right? So they can all charge seperate targets then?
Yup once deployed they split so they have to start close to each other, but after that they can go wild. Deathskulls would be awesome on them on every level, but the 20% increase to making their charge is too good to turn down as it makes their charge reliable.
Awesome, that sounds really interesting, even if its just for fun.
Only problem is Id have to drop a small fortune on deff dreads
Thankfully I also play Space marines and just so happen to have a stock of "freshly looted" dreadnoughts. I do wonder how they compare to meganobz however. Anyone have the final points on dreads and meganobz? I can't find the point leaks. :(
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can see two units of 3 each deff dreads coming out of deepstrike as a solid options. 6 charges all with around a 72% charge chance each (evil sunz) each spitting out respectable damage profiles with 6 attacks and being t7 8 wounds 3+ is not going to get washed away too terribly easily. Saturate the field with one or two 30 blobs of either da jumped boyz or stormboyz and you have a strong beta strike.
That leaves your core which I can see as being transport based mech assault or shooty booty gunlines boyz. Basic Nobs are 14 points base and a big choppa is 5 pts so 19 points for them each inside a trukk or battlewagon is not a terrible proposition especially with an ammo runt to take the hit when their transport dies. I don't see the kustom shootas being worth it for them even at 2 points a model. They are still BS5+ under the best circumstances and even with say 40 shots that's a whole lot of diddly, but only twice as much diddly as basic shootas for 20 more points. However that volume of dice is appealing in of itself.
Meganobz out of deepstrike could be solid as well. I'd have to compare the point per performance to the deff dread strategy to properly compare.
When you deep strike in a unit of three deffdreads, thats the point where they are "deployed" right? So they can all charge seperate targets then?
Yup once deployed they split so they have to start close to each other, but after that they can go wild. Deathskulls would be awesome on them on every level, but the 20% increase to making their charge is too good to turn down as it makes their charge reliable.
Awesome, that sounds really interesting, even if its just for fun.
Only problem is Id have to drop a small fortune on deff dreads
Thankfully I also play Space marines and just so happen to have a stock of "freshly looted" dreadnoughts. I do wonder how they compare to meganobz however. Anyone have the final points on dreads and meganobz? I can't find the point leaks. :(
Well lucky you
I really like the deff dread model, but at $50 a pop I dunno. Plus i like having multiples of things so id probably want atleast 3. the SC box is an option, but I dont really need anything else in the box besides a box or 2 of nobz to replace my AOBR ones.
JimOnMars wrote: Sorry I missed this, but have we confirmed the Battlewagon and Trukks cannot carry a unit from a different clan?
If you look at strikingscorpions video review of the codex you can see that a gunwagon can carry up to 12 <CLAN> infantry models. Stands to reason that restriction is there for every other transport, so yes?
I honestly think this is a blanket change coming in CA, it was pretty gamey to begin with
JimOnMars wrote: Sorry I missed this, but have we confirmed the Battlewagon and Trukks cannot carry a unit from a different clan?
If you look at strikingscorpions video review of the codex you can see that a gunwagon can carry up to 12 <CLAN> infantry models. Stands to reason that restriction is there for every other transport, so yes?
I honestly think this is a blanket change coming in CA, it was pretty gamey to begin with
It IS fluffy, as what self-respecting suns driver is going to cart around a bunch of bad moons or deffskuls?
It gives me grief because i don't know now what i am going to put in all of my waaaagh!ing trukks.
JimOnMars wrote: Sorry I missed this, but have we confirmed the Battlewagon and Trukks cannot carry a unit from a different clan?
If you look at strikingscorpions video review of the codex you can see that a gunwagon can carry up to 12 <CLAN> infantry models. Stands to reason that restriction is there for every other transport, so yes?
I honestly think this is a blanket change coming in CA, it was pretty gamey to begin with
Can anyone other then DE ride in someone else's vehicle?
The Chinork will still be able to unless there is a change to in a few weeks with the FAQ
Dojo wrote: The Upgrade to the flashgitz snazzguns is pretty significant, alot of things you can mow down now regardless of clan affiliation.
Yeah they're solid. Nob statline, solid gun and better than average BS all for 30 points. My only real concern with them is that they REQUIRE transports and how they compare to Lootas who are 17 points. They're also locked to the freebootaz tag and I don't think they benefit from that if they are in another clan detachment even if they don't mess up that clan's bonuses where as the Lootas can fit into any clan easier.
JimOnMars wrote: Sorry I missed this, but have we confirmed the Battlewagon and Trukks cannot carry a unit from a different clan?
If you look at strikingscorpions video review of the codex you can see that a gunwagon can carry up to 12 <CLAN> infantry models. Stands to reason that restriction is there for every other transport, so yes?
I honestly think this is a blanket change coming in CA, it was pretty gamey to begin with
Can anyone other then DE ride in someone else's vehicle?
The Chinork will still be able to unless there is a change to in a few weeks with the FAQ
IG. Not being able to ride is basically space marine only thing. Well until orks. Figures orks gets same rule as one of the weakest codexes.
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fe40k wrote: Flashgits suffer from being extremely expensive, and more importantly, not being able to shoot twice (since it’s a bad moon stratagem).
I don’t j is, I just feel they require too much investment (chinork warkopta), with not enough payout; thanks to the lack of stratagems.
I mean, I guess we’ll see what the Freebootaz stratagem is, but... man, I really just wanted them to shoot twice with 5+ ddd.
Yep not convinced on them. D2 is nice yeah but price hike and the issue with them was generally 24" range and being blown to pieces. S6 helps sometimes but 5->6 is one of the least useful S upgrades.
Hitting on 5+/6+ on first turn sucks and then generally being easy to remove for points...Urgh.
fe40k wrote: Flashgits suffer from being extremely expensive, and more importantly, not being able to shoot twice (since it’s a bad moon stratagem).
I don’t j is, I just feel they require too much investment (chinork warkopta), with not enough payout; thanks to the lack of stratagems.
I mean, I guess we’ll see what the Freebootaz stratagem is, but... man, I really just wanted them to shoot twice with 5+ ddd.
Freeboota stratagem is a really crappy orbital strike type thing. 3CP pick d3 spots 6" away from each other, everything within 6 roll a D6 for . On a 5+ (-1 if they are a character) they take d3 mortal wounds. Once per game. Their relic is just a once a game you can ignore morale. Their trait is pretty darn solid once it kicks off, but their warlord (re-roll 1s to hit in fight phase within 6) is meh, their relic is bad and their stratagem is laughable. They are not strictly shooty like the bad moonz are, but their prime unit, Flashgitz, are and as such do suffer.
Eonfuzz wrote: I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.
So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".
pismakron wrote: So which is better? Meganobz at 35, shoota-kans at 45, or the shoota-dread at 95?
kans are bad. too similar to meganobz, but vehicles and cant benefit from clan traits. also cant take in large mob due to low morale.
so the question is dreads or manz... well even with the evilsuns trait you will struggeling to get em up and close. so the only real option is to teleport them. but manz can do that without the use of CP. with grotshields etc they will survive even if going second and can then jump whereever you want em.
after a bit of sloppy mathhammer... 3manz vs 1dread... their pretty even in dmg output
dread with 4 klaws is 115 points
3 manz with 2x2saws are 119 points
thats 6 s10 ap -4 2d + 3 s10 ap-3 d3d at ws4+ = about 7dmg
vs 6 s10 ap-3 3d at ws3+ = about 8,33dmg
What do you guys think about a deffkopta or two just to be annoying and jump up and assault a unit of ruins campers on the 2nd floor?
I know they lost free vertical movement, but 14" isn't exactly limiting, and they''re small enough of a profile to squeeze into a spot that a unit of massed storm boys or whatever else cannot.
Obviously they're not going to be killing anything, but that's the idea. Having seen an opponent use a blight drone against my dark angels devastators in this way, after LOS blocking behind a building, he was able to totally put their shooting out of commission just by jumping up and saying "Hai!"
I want that ability, and a cheap, mobile little derpcopter seems like a fun way to do that.
Put Flash Gitz in transport. Move transport to midboard near terrain T1. Opponent reduces transport to 0 wounds. Roll to expode place Gitz within 3" of transport in terrain. Roll to remove Gitz. Leftover Gitz are on the board before removing transport. Use the loot it strategem to improve their save from 4+ to 3+ and being in cover will make them 2+. Enjoy your mega armored Flash Gitz.
after a bit of sloppy mathhammer... 3manz vs 1dread... their pretty even in dmg output
dread with 4 klaws is 115 points
3 manz with 2x2saws are 119 points
thats 6 s10 ap -4 2d + 3 s10 ap-3 d3d at ws4+ = about 7dmg
vs 6 s10 ap-3 3d at ws3+ = about 8,33dmg
KSMANZ get an extra attack so it’s 8 s10 AP -4 d2 attacks for them dude. How does that effect the math hammer?
Another thing to consider when comparing meganobz versus dreads is the durability and mobility. Mobility wise the dread will win out with it's base move of six versus the nobs' 4 four. However Nobz can move up and down floors of a ruin which can be HUGE in some circumstances. Durability is an interesting one because they are durable in different ways. The dread is 8 wounds at t7 and 3+ where as the nobs are 9 wounds at t4 with a 2+ save. Damage can be spilled over and wasted on the MANZm but for every three wounds they lose 33% of their effectiveness and the dread does not care until it is 100% dead, but there are no wasted wounds against it.
So if im calculating correctly, for 214 points you can fill out a battalion of grots for 5CP (3x10 + 2x weirdboyz) Given how good our stratagems are with the codex, that seems very worth it.
Question is, is it worth taking a runtherd so they stay on the objectives? Am I wrong in thinking taking a cheap Battalion like this is worth it?
ALSO: If I wanted to do a deepstrike list (say teleport in a gorkanaut and some MANz/Deff Dreads) do you think it would be worth holding off on Da Jump 1st turn? If I jump some boyz across the table with most of my points already off the board in DS every gun in the game is going to be pointed at them. I think it might be worth skipping it 1st turn until theres a lot of stuff in the opponents face turn 2
Billagio wrote: So if im calculating correctly, for 214 points you can fill out a battalion of grots for 5CP (3x10 + 2x weirdboyz) Given how good our stratagems are with the codex, that seems very worth it.
Question is, is it worth taking a runtherd so they stay on the objectives? Am I wrong in thinking taking a cheap Battalion like this is worth it?
ALSO: If I wanted to do a deepstrike list (say teleport in a gorkanaut and some MANz/Deff Dreads) do you think it would be worth holding off on Da Jump 1st turn? If I jump some boyz across the table with most of my points already off the board in DS every gun in the game is going to be pointed at them. I think it might be worth skipping it 1st turn until theres a lot of stuff in the opponents face turn 2
You could deepstrike one of the units of Gretchin. There's not much durability to them, but a 5 man unit of Intercessors would have to make every single shot against them to wipe them out. basically there's enough wounds there that the opponent would be forced to target them or be tied up for a round or two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, Da Jump turn 1
So, as i see it, orks are shaping out to be the most powerful mellee-betta strike in the game right now. Thanks to lots of deepstrikes, good mellee units and well above average chances to make the charge.
And now we face the problem of dealing with enemy bauble wrap t1.
Some speculations on the options we've got.
- a couple footslogging shootaboy squads. Potentially with bigshootas. If they are evil sunz, theg have higher threat range and get no penalty for shooting after advansing. Wierdboy can deepstrike one of the squads for a potential suicide chaff-clearing charge. They might even tie up a couple units behind the screen if they get lucky. And if they somehow don't get wiped out or get to go second and suffer casualties, can outflank with a greentide strategem.
- deepstriking 40 grots. Now they won't do that much damage but they have a potential to be used as grot shields. Besides, we might be able to use the trick mid game to protect from overwatch. Will be really good vs rhose knight and tau devastating flamers. My manz will be much safer this way.
- Get somethung shooty to blast them from across the board. Now that's a difficult question what's good enough to deal with like 40 guardsmen and not be a complete waste after that. Planes? Bubblechukkas? Shoota wagons? I'm not sure we even have real options here.
I think that the shootaboyz route seems to be the easiest and probably the best.
koooaei wrote: So, as i see it, orks are shaping out to be the most powerful mellee-betta strike in the game right now. Thanks to lots of deepstrikes, good mellee units and well above average chances to make the charge.
And now we face the problem of dealing with enemy bauble wrap t1.
Some speculations on the options we've got.
- a couple footslogging shootaboy squads. Potentially with bigshootas. If they are evil sunz, theg have higher threat range and get no penalty for shooting after advansing. Wierdboy can deepstrike one of the squads for a potential suicide chaff-clearing charge. They might even tie up a couple units behind the screen if they get lucky. And if they somehow don't get wiped out or get to go second and suffer casualties, can outflank with a greentide strategem.
- deepstriking 40 grots. Now they won't do that much damage but they have a potential to be used as grot shields. Besides, we might be able to use the trick mid game to protect from overwatch. Will be really good vs rhose knight and tau devastating flamers. My manz will be much safer this way.
- Get somethung shooty to blast them from across the board. Now that's a difficult question what's good enough to deal with like 40 guardsmen and not be a complete waste after that. Planes? Bubblechukkas? Shoota wagons? I'm not sure we even have real options here.
I think that the shootaboyz route seems to be the easiest and probably the best.
I came to the same conclusion and have also decided that our first challenge is screen clearing turn 1.
In my list I'm goin to try a maxed out unit of bikes. I'm hoping I have too many other, "scarier" threats that the opponent doesn't blast them off the table turn one. We also have the 2 CP cover stratagem to help with that. If they don't focus them or if I get first turn I feel pretty confident I'll be blowing their screen away with a combination of dakkaguns and charging. The Kustom Boosta Blasta with its 4 burnas might be useful here too.
I'm a sucker for the new stuff so I'm planning to charge the Boosta Blasta and Scrapjet into their lines turn 1, hopefully into tougher targets to try and get the mortal wounds off. Ideally I'll also be falling back with trike boss (who also goes into chaff turn 1 but aims to pile in to better targets) who can use his strat to deal more mortal wounds before charging in again (due to Evil Sunz trait), along with the Boosta Blasta and Scrapjet for more MW. From there the rest of the army can follow up to finish the opponent off.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I came to the same conclusion and have also decided that our first challenge is screen clearing turn 1.
In my list I'm goin to try a maxed out unit of bikes. I'm hoping I have too many other, "scarier" threats that the opponent doesn't blast them off the table turn one. We also have the 2 CP cover stratagem to help with that. If they don't focus them or if I get first turn I feel pretty confident I'll be blowing their screen away with a combination of dakkaguns and charging. The Kustom Boosta Blasta with its 4 burnas might be useful here too.
I'm a sucker for the new stuff so I'm planning to charge the Boosta Blasta and Scrapjet into their lines turn 1, hopefully into tougher targets to try and get the mortal wounds off. Ideally I'll also be falling back with trike boss (who also goes into chaff turn 1 but aims to pile in to better targets) who can use his strat to deal more mortal wounds before charging in again (due to Evil Sunz trait), along with the Boosta Blasta and Scrapjet for more MW. From there the rest of the army can follow up to finish the opponent off.
The problem I have with charging the KBB is that while it may deal some mortal wounds, it really doesn't want to be in CC. It has no profile there so it really needs to either be a blood axe unit (not going to happen on my part) or you need to make sure that there's enough support in CC that the enemy dies and you're free to fire next turn. Well either that or you're charging something that wants to be in CC even less than you.. The same problem obviously exists with the megatrakk skrapjet but to a much lesser degree since it can actually hurt things in CC even after dealing those mortal wounds, not sure if that's still enough to forgoe shooting next turn
Which Kultur is best for Weirdboys?
Was was thinking Deathskulls for the ObSec, 6++, but unfortunately it can't reroll damage on smite because it is only when shooting or fighting...
Maybe Snakebites for the fnp against peril wounds.
PiñaColada wrote: The problem I have with charging the KBB is that while it may deal some mortal wounds, it really doesn't want to be in CC. It has no profile there so it really needs to either be a blood axe unit (not going to happen on my part) or you need to make sure that there's enough support in CC that the enemy dies and you're free to fire next turn. Well either that or you're charging something that wants to be in CC even less than you.. The same problem obviously exists with the megatrakk skrapjet but to a much lesser degree since it can actually hurt things in CC even after dealing those mortal wounds, not sure if that's still enough to forgoe shooting next turn
I am absolutely planning to obliterate the enemy I charge on turn 1 yea. 12 warbikes, KBB, MTSJ and Trikeboss should do it (in an ideal world). Possibly add the SJD if I roll 3+ to advance.
For me its all about target saturation. My concerns turn 2 are less because then (like you, I think?) I'll be charging a Deffrolla Bone Breaker with 3d6 charge, 2+ MW generation and 7-12 Str 10, 2d attacks. With a MW aura if enemy units stay in combat. That is a rather big, red problem.
PiñaColada wrote: The problem I have with charging the KBB is that while it may deal some mortal wounds, it really doesn't want to be in CC. It has no profile there so it really needs to either be a blood axe unit (not going to happen on my part) or you need to make sure that there's enough support in CC that the enemy dies and you're free to fire next turn. Well either that or you're charging something that wants to be in CC even less than you.. The same problem obviously exists with the megatrakk skrapjet but to a much lesser degree since it can actually hurt things in CC even after dealing those mortal wounds, not sure if that's still enough to forgoe shooting next turn
I am absolutely planning to obliterate the enemy I charge on turn 1 yea. 12 warbikes, KBB, MTSJ and Trikeboss should do it (in an ideal world). Possibly add the SJD if I roll 3+ to advance.
For me its all about target saturation. My concerns turn 2 are less because then (like you, I think?) I'll be charging a Deffrolla Bone Breaker with 3d6 charge, 2+ MW generation and 7-12 Str 10, 2d attacks. With a MW aura if enemy units stay in combat. That is a rather big, red problem.
Zog yes I will! Although I hope that the bonebreaka with rezemekkas redder armour might be able to squeeze in a T1 charge every now and then, especially if I don't get to go first. I'm also thinking MSU warbike squads might actually be pretty decent to be honest at 74/82 points to soak up overwatch/tie up units/get a couple of hits in. The dakkaguns are going to be fairly solid at cutting down chaff out of cover, hopefully enough to be able to sneak through their lines. A 10 man nob unit all with big choppas & kustom shootas + 2 ammo runts in a trukk with a wrecking ball is something like 285 points, that's also a pretty decent threat IMO (and they are a decent target for the boarding action strat). Unfortunately I don't have time to play any games in the next month or so but at least that gives me time to do some finkin'
I want to like the gunwagon but I'm not sure it's worth it. If we could place mek gunz on it I'd be tempted, or if FW updates the supa-kannon version
Im pretty sure "Da Krunch" is tailor made for helping wittle down a screen.
step 1 cast "Da Krunch" 1.5 (hope it happens twice)
step 2 shooting from highvolume source like shootas or bikes
Step 3 charge
step 4 loot everything and laugh until your lungs cave in.
thats how i would do it.
Dojo wrote: Im pretty sure "Da Krunch" is tailor made for helping wittle down a screen.
step 1 cast "Da Krunch" 1.5 (hope it happens twice)
step 2 shooting from highvolume source like shootas or bikes
Step 3 charge
step 4 loot everything and laugh until your lungs cave in.
thats how i would do it.
Depends on the screen. Guardsmen come in blobs of 10, in that case a smite will probably do better. In general I don't think da krunch is all that good, unless you know there are going to be huge blobs of cultists/daemons/conscripts etc on the field I'd just pick another spell. It's fun and if it does go off twice it can really deal some damage but I don't think I'll pick it, although I only use 1 weirdboy (warphead from now on)
Bigger issue is that it's fairly hard to keep weirdboy safe AND not amidst bazillion orks making perils surprisingly easy. Do you really want to waste MW's on chaff and have highish risk for perilling?
I treat my weirdboys as one shot tools as odds of getting 2-3 wounds from peril is annoyingly high and once that's done odds of spell failing due to dying to peril is too high. Nevermind downside of having character to die with! (vp's etc)
tneva82 wrote: Bigger issue is that it's fairly hard to keep weirdboy safe AND not amidst bazillion orks making perils surprisingly easy. Do you really want to waste MW's on chaff and have highish risk for perilling?
I treat my weirdboys as one shot tools as odds of getting 2-3 wounds from peril is annoyingly high and once that's done odds of spell failing due to dying to peril is too high. Nevermind downside of having character to die with! (vp's etc)
Well the waaagh energy now maxes out at +3 so the risk of perils is lower. Honestly, that doesn't really feel like a nerf to me, more of a side grade. Sure it's going to result in some smites that are actually stoppable but it also means that your average warp charge is 10, which is a real nice number IMO. I suppose the skorched gitbonez gubbin is there if you feel like you need an additional +1
Edit: The nerf that they did receive is that grots no longer count towards the waagh energy. That's a bit of a let down
Ah hadn't heard of the +3 but still that's been what I often get and still peril annoyingly often. Especially as after peril 66% times you don't often want to risk casting with that weirdboy anymore.
With death of footsloggin boyz lack of grots is bit of a bummer though. That's big deal.
Is the new bonebreaka BW variant open topped? The gunwagon I think for sure has the ard case because of the turret on top. If the bonebreaka is not open topped, can the standard BW get a deff rolla?? I am really intrigued with taking a BW w/ deff roll and filling it with burna boyz for ramming speed damage, deff rolla hits and flaming some gitz.
Maybe blood axe kulture would be best for these guys as well. Since advancing and shooting doesnt effect burna hits, the ability to pull out of combat and set gak on fire again sounds like th best option.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Is the new bonebreaka BW variant open topped? The gunwagon I think for sure has the ard case because of the turret on top. If the bonebreaka is not open topped, can the standard BW get a deff rolla?? I am really intrigued with taking a BW w/ deff roll and filling it with burna boyz for ramming speed damage, deff rolla hits and flaming some gitz.
I think the Bonebreaka is hardcased, and I think it can only carry 12 models. It's going to be a priority target by all the anti knight weapons, so either make sure theres a KFF around, or don't put anything valuable in it.
Has anyone done the mathhammering on how much longer a T8 BW will last with the 5++KFF and the Dethskull 6+++ Fnp?
If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
tneva82 wrote: If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
Da jump is still a thing.
If I'm using the Da Jump blob to deal with screens, what is my opponent going to use to prevent them from getting to the screen?
A screen?
30 shoota boyz starting next to 10 shoota boyz, mob up, Da Jump them in, open fire with everything (strategically so as to not wipe out the front line of the screen) then just charge the front line of the screen.
Perfect little distraction blobifex that shows up and causes a ruckus while dealing with enemy screens.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Is the new bonebreaka BW variant open topped? The gunwagon I think for sure has the ard case because of the turret on top. If the bonebreaka is not open topped, can the standard BW get a deff rolla?? I am really intrigued with taking a BW w/ deff roll and filling it with burna boyz for ramming speed damage, deff rolla hits and flaming some gitz.
I think the Bonebreaka is hardcased, and I think it can only carry 12 models. It's going to be a priority target by all the anti knight weapons, so either make sure theres a KFF around, or don't put anything valuable in it.
Has anyone done the mathhammering on how much longer a T8 BW will last with the 5++KFF and the Dethskull 6+++ Fnp?
Exactly. You have three options. The normal wagon starts at 120 the other ones at 140, gear excluded
1, The normal battlewagon which is a bit cheaper and your only way to get 20 transport capacity. It can take all the optional extras. Well except for rokkit launchas, those are gone as weapons on any and all battlewagon types.
2, The bonebreaka. It comes with an 'ard case and a deffrolla. Can only take the "small weapon options" like the big shootas. 12 transport capacity, gains an additional d6 attacks on the charge
3, The gunwagon. It comes with an 'ard case and a kannon/killkannon/zzap gun and has a 12 transport capacity. Gets to fire its main gun twice at the same target if it moves less than half its movement characteristic. It might be BS4+, that was mentioned on the warhammer stream but I don't believe that's correct.
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tneva82 wrote: If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
Have not seen the results or even the lists but this one goes out for you Tneva.
tneva82 wrote: If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
Da jump is still a thing.
If I'm using the Da Jump blob to deal with screens, what is my opponent going to use to prevent them from getting to the screen?
A screen?
30 shoota boyz starting next to 10 shoota boyz, mob up, Da Jump them in, open fire with everything (strategically so as to not wipe out the front line of the screen) then just charge the front line of the screen.
Perfect little distraction blobifex that shows up and causes a ruckus while dealing with enemy screens.
And da jump is not foot slogging boyz. It's DS'ing boyz. Reading comprehension failure. Sure DS'ing evil sun boyz can still have role. Foot slogging it not. Takes too long when you suffer 60 model casualties per turn rate(which substandard gunline can do). So if you want boyz you dont' foot slogthem. You DS. Either by tellyporta, blood axe one or da jump. Key being not foot slogging.
Do we a valiant Ork general that is willing to have a thru examination of the units in the codex,when its out, with some grading as bad ,playable , must have?
Been doin some finkin. Da Smasha Gun is stricktly better than the Traktor Kannon.
Because it's 31 points vs 45, you git 3 for the price of 2.
They hit once per phase, D3 shots at BS4+. The 2D6 "strength" is a little worse than the Traktor's S8, but not by much.
Against Invuls there is no AP advantage, but against anything without an invul the Smasha is vasstly superior, even 1 on 1.
The place where the Traktor shines is -1 to hit, which evens them up in number of hits (2 vs 2), and against the fly keyword, which does 4.4 damage vs 3.5.
So against a flyer with invul, the 2 traktors are 16% better than the 3 smashas.
But these 3 smashas have 50% as many wounds and provide more MSU.
Against 3++ knights, each gun is the same (the traktor slightly better against T8) but you have 3 of them instead of 2.
Against non-invulnerables tanks the 3 smashas do 80% more output and have 50% more survivability.
So, boyz...convinced?
ETA: STOP DA PRESSES BOYZ!!!
Traktors don't get DDD, but Smashas do, for 16% output increase.
Against most flyers, 3 smashas equal 2 traktors, with 50% more wounds.
The ONLY time Traktors are ever better is against -2 to hit.
Against non-invul tanks, Smashas are TWICE as good.
ALso...
18 smashas cost 558, basically 1-shot a non-ion shielded knight. Not as points efficient as some things, but not bad.
Emicrania wrote: Do we a valiant Ork general that is willing to have a thru examination of the units in the codex,when its out, with some grading as bad ,playable , must have?
Yeah I think we should re-make the thread when the codex comes out so we can have accurate information on this, and so that all the discussion is about the codex so its easy to follow. Most other armies have re-made when they got their book
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Is the new bonebreaka BW variant open topped? The gunwagon I think for sure has the ard case because of the turret on top. If the bonebreaka is not open topped, can the standard BW get a deff rolla?? I am really intrigued with taking a BW w/ deff roll and filling it with burna boyz for ramming speed damage, deff rolla hits and flaming some gitz.
I think the Bonebreaka is hardcased, and I think it can only carry 12 models. It's going to be a priority target by all the anti knight weapons, so either make sure theres a KFF around, or don't put anything valuable in it.
Those anti-knight weapons can't klll everything though. Put a morkanaut with it for KFF, some dragstas or scrapjets for anti-tank and some other vehicles like dakkajets, gunwagons or mek guns, and they will start having issues with targeting priority.
There also is a new hot thing to put into those 12 transport slots: 5 Nobz with 5 BC and 5 with 2 choppas for just 165 points or 6 MANz for 180 - both cheaper than 30 boyz used to be.
tneva82 wrote: If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
Da jump is still a thing.
If I'm using the Da Jump blob to deal with screens, what is my opponent going to use to prevent them from getting to the screen?
A screen?
30 shoota boyz starting next to 10 shoota boyz, mob up, Da Jump them in, open fire with everything (strategically so as to not wipe out the front line of the screen) then just charge the front line of the screen.
Perfect little distraction blobifex that shows up and causes a ruckus while dealing with enemy screens.
And da jump is not foot slogging boyz. It's DS'ing boyz. Reading comprehension failure. Sure DS'ing evil sun boyz can still have role. Foot slogging it not. Takes too long when you suffer 60 model casualties per turn rate(which substandard gunline can do). So if you want boyz you dont' foot slogthem. You DS. Either by tellyporta, blood axe one or da jump. Key being not foot slogging.
I don't understand why you're bashing boyz as "too slow" or "must ds turn 2" when we have the easy, available option of DS turn 1.
Sorry if the instructions are a bit tough, I can't quite figure out how to get Battlescribe auto syncing with a dropbox file.
I'm already noticing a lot of issues.
For one, the warboss, isn't it 65 points base? Why is headwhoppas kill Choppa 7 points when. It replaces a 5 point big Choppa? Why is he able to take a shoot a when this is not in the codex as a wargear option?
For the Ork boys, the nob is only 6 points. The nob also cannot have a Choppa on his slugga arm. There is no tankbustas bomb option. In the codex, you may take a bomb per 10 boyz for free.
Same thing with nob entry. Nob weapons includes a Choppa, big Choppa, etc. And you may replace the Choppa and slugga. You should be able to take the full nob gear list on both arms.
Deffkopta points are completely wrong. Trukk can't take all the options in the codex (wreckin ball, grabbing Klaw, stick bomb launch) etc etc.
tneva82 wrote: If you plan to deal with screens to help with T2 deep strikes boyz are waaaaaaaaay too slow. They aren't T1 charging ever if opponent deliberately doesn't allow you(and if opponent deliberately gives you one you can go with assumption it's because it's not bad for the opponent). Shooting isn't reliable enough either. Post-T2 charges you can use DS'ing boyz to do the clearing or some other good chaff clearing. Against gunline boyz aren't charging by foot before T3 anyway and by then DS'er's need to come anyway so chaff clearing is too late anyway.
Da jump is still a thing.
If I'm using the Da Jump blob to deal with screens, what is my opponent going to use to prevent them from getting to the screen?
A screen?
30 shoota boyz starting next to 10 shoota boyz, mob up, Da Jump them in, open fire with everything (strategically so as to not wipe out the front line of the screen) then just charge the front line of the screen.
Perfect little distraction blobifex that shows up and causes a ruckus while dealing with enemy screens.
And da jump is not foot slogging boyz. It's DS'ing boyz. Reading comprehension failure. Sure DS'ing evil sun boyz can still have role. Foot slogging it not. Takes too long when you suffer 60 model casualties per turn rate(which substandard gunline can do). So if you want boyz you dont' foot slogthem. You DS. Either by tellyporta, blood axe one or da jump. Key being not foot slogging.
I don't understand why you're bashing boyz as "too slow" or "must ds turn 2" when we have the easy, available option of DS turn 1.
It's not even that to me that's crazy. Evil Sunz shoota boys have a first turn shooting range of 26-31" with their shootas. That should be good for at least the first layer of screens on most deployments. So you can definitely slog while prepping for a turn 2 ss bonanza.
Very good point. Footslogging evil sunz are indeed reach out and touch them type units.
6" move + D 6 + 1 is an average of 10.5" a turn, plus 18" shootas range or 36" with the big shootas.
However, a unit of 30 plus big shootas and a big Choppa will run you 230 points and clip a mere 3.5 MEQs, provided that they aren't minced by enemy shooting turn 1. That's frankly why I'm not impressed by them and won't be going that route. Maybe if I used two big blobs plus a KFF. But that will run you over 500 points and basically take down a single combat squad a turn.
I'll be frank, that's why I'm thinking MSU. At least with a free nob, a free Choppa on said nob, the cost reduction on trukks and the new, killy bonebreaka wagon, and the free tankbustas bomb, I don't have to be insulted by the cost increase.
So what are we thinking are major strategies vs the major factions? Knights are the one most heavily discussed, but for instance my main opponent at the moment is running nids. I was thinking of deffdreads tellyporting with a morkanaut and mek gunz to fill a spearhead. Id also have a battalion of boyz inside either the bonecrusha or trukks.
Btw a meka dread with the killkannon arm and kff... is pretty awesome again!!! An evil sun double klaw w supa charga is insane...
I’m going to have to wait til the codex and faq drops....I’m fairly sure the FW units are going to have thier faq drop shortly after codex launch since the big faq deliberately had zero ork changes. I’m leaning heavily on the index to carry orks.
Warboss on bike w relic klaw
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
Wartrike
Zhardsnark
70-90 skar Boyz w Nobs w Big choppa (use green tide strat to bring back squad)
3x 10 Gretchin screens
Morkanaut or meka dread w kff 3x deff dreads w 4 klaws (deepstrike turn2)
Weirdboy w da jump.
10x tankbustas w 2 squigs (knight killers) (needs to be bad moon for double tap strat)
Some form of this is my base list....
Hoping Mek guns get kulturs but if not I still might have a few smasha/traktor guns as obj holders.
Looking at layers of protection vs first turn shooting. 5++, 5+++ then 2+ grot screen.
gungo wrote: Btw a meka dread with the killkannon arm and kff... is pretty awesome again!!! An evil sun double klaw w supa charga is insane...
I’m going to have to wait til the codex and faq drops....I’m fairly sure the FW units are going to have thier faq drop shortly after codex launch since the big faq deliberately had zero ork changes. I’m leaning heavily on the index to carry orks.
Warboss on bike w relic klaw
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
Wartrike
Zhardsnark
70-90 skar Boyz w Nobs w Big choppa (use green tide strat to bring back squad)
3x 10 Gretchin screens
Morkanaut or meka dread w kff 3x deff dreads w 4 klaws (deepstrike turn2)
Weirdboy w da jump.
10x tankbustas w 2 squigs (knight killers) (needs to be bad moon for double tap strat)
Some form of this is my base list....
Hoping Mek guns get kulturs but if not I still might have a few smasha/traktor guns as obj holders.
Looking at layers of protection vs first turn shooting. 5++, 5+++ then 2+ grot screen.
From the MWG review, there's some interesting info about the Wazbom Blastajet:
Tellyport Blasta changed from D3 shots to 3 shots
Wazbom Mega-Kannons changed from D3 damage to D6 damage
Smasha Gun changed to D3 shots.
So, that explains the price hike on the Wazbom, I guess the question is, is it worthwhile? As someone who tries to not lean on the index crutch, I'm looking at it as a possible alternative to a bike BM for my speed freek army. -1 to hit, Fly, 12W, 5++ makes it relatively tough to take down vs most anti tank firepower, at 159 points it is a pricy investment but with each of the guns getting a bump in investment mayyyybe?
I think given how tellyport blastas work they're generally still inefficient IMO even at straight 3 shots. Although with an average of 1 hit per gun if your opponent runs a lot of Thunderwolf Cavalry, Bikers, etc you might get some use out of it?
18 smashas cost 558, basically 1-shot a non-ion shielded knight. Not as points efficient as some things, but not bad.
Great info. The only thing your calculations leave out, is traktor cannons forcing an auto explode result on units with the fly keyword. Iniitally (in the first few games), this could result in some massive damage to your opponent before they realize what is happening. In later games, just the presence of a few traktor cannons will completely change both your opponents deployment, and use of units with the fly keyword.
Psychologically, the traktor cannon has a lot going for it. I know the first time someone one shots a venom and it cascades into glorious destruction, your opponent will never play that list the same way ever again.
the_scotsman wrote: From the MWG review, there's some interesting info about the Wazbom Blastajet:
Tellyport Blasta changed from D3 shots to 3 shots
Wazbom Mega-Kannons changed from D3 damage to D6 damage
Smasha Gun changed to D3 shots.
So, that explains the price hike on the Wazbom, I guess the question is, is it worthwhile? As someone who tries to not lean on the index crutch, I'm looking at it as a possible alternative to a bike BM for my speed freek army. -1 to hit, Fly, 12W, 5++ makes it relatively tough to take down vs most anti tank firepower, at 159 points it is a pricy investment but with each of the guns getting a bump in investment mayyyybe?
I think given how tellyport blastas work they're generally still inefficient IMO even at straight 3 shots. Although with an average of 1 hit per gun if your opponent runs a lot of Thunderwolf Cavalry, Bikers, etc you might get some use out of it?
The Long, uncontrolled bursts stratgem is probably pretty good fit on the wazbom too. The potential is there but I'm not sure if it's worth it unless you're running plenty of other fast stuff that fits under the bubble
Ok gang, ive got a game next Wednesday and this is what I came up with for 2000 points of of orks
Spoiler:
Evil Suns Battalion (5cp)
HQ
Weirdboy, da jump
Weirdboy, da jump
Troops
10x gretchin
10x gretchin
10x gretchin
Evil Suns Battalion (5cp)
HQ
Weirdboy, warpath
Warboss, powerklaw. Warlord trait is the one with additional damage for weapons and rerolls in cc, relic is the killa klaw
Troops
9x slugga boys, boss nob
9x slugga boys, boss nob
29x shoota boys, boss nob with powerklaw
28x slugga boys, boss nob with powerklaw
Evil Suns Spearhead (1cp)
HQ
Warboss, big choppa
Elites
5x tankbustas
5x tankbustas
Heavy support
Gorkanaut
Gorkanaut
2x deffdreads, 1 skorcha and 3 dread saws each
1999 points, 14 cp total
T1 the plan is to hide 80 boyz as best you can. Pack them up and wrap them best you can with grots, put them out of LOS if possible or in cover if not. Bosses and weirdboyz stay with them. 6 cp is used to put the gorkanauts and deffdreads in tellyportas, with the tankbustas riding inside the gorkanauts.
Mob up one of the small squads with one of the big squads. The mobbed up squad can be warpathed and da jumped up the board (still not clear if this works, if not trade out warpath for fist of Gork or whatecer the character buffing one is) to try and clear some screens, make sure its the shoota boy squad. Use grot shield stratagem to protect any boyz squads that you can't hide. Basically, hunker down for turn 2 and wait to be da jumped in, clear screens if possible.
T2, everything lands on the board, another squad of boyz is mibbed up and da jumped in. With evil suns trait you should be able to get most of these into combat and the gorkanauts do ok with shooting as well. Use ramming speed to ensure one Gorkanaut makes its charge, and basically spread everything out best you can to tag as many shooty things as possible. Use the get stuck in stratagem on a gorkanaut that makes its charge for more killing and more tagging out of shooty units.
T3, if t2 went well then your opponent hopefully missed out on a lot of shooting due to things falling back. Tankbustas disembark, and hopefully things are crowded enough that one in each squad can toss some tankbusta bombs. If you didn't jump one of the boyz blobs up on t1 for screen clearing, jump it up now. Warbosses and weirdboyz should be moving up to smite things and hit them. Tankbustas get a nice round of shooting and any left over cp can be used to boost it. Remaining gorks and dreads do some shooting and charge in again. Hopefully at this point you will have whittled opponant down to a more manageable amount of units that you can effectively stunlock with constant charges and put them through the meatgrinder until victory.
What do you think? I may drop a Warboss for an index big mek with kff to help protect the boyz on the board until t2. Dreads have saws instead of klaws to satisfy the "half of your points must be on the table t1" rule. Does this sound like a pretty strong beta strike?
ManTube wrote: Ok gang, ive got a game next Wednesday and this is what I came up with for 2000 points of of orks
Spoiler:
Evil Suns Battalion (5cp)
HQ
Weirdboy, da jump
Weirdboy, da jump
Troops
10x gretchin
10x gretchin
10x gretchin
Evil Suns Battalion (5cp)
HQ
Weirdboy, warpath
Warboss, powerklaw. Warlord trait is the one with additional damage for weapons and rerolls in cc, relic is the killa klaw
Troops
9x slugga boys, boss nob
9x slugga boys, boss nob
29x shoota boys, boss nob with powerklaw
28x slugga boys, boss nob with powerklaw
Evil Suns Spearhead (1cp)
HQ
Warboss, big choppa
Elites
5x tankbustas
5x tankbustas
Heavy support
Gorkanaut
Gorkanaut
2x deffdreads, 1 skorcha and 3 dread saws each
1999 points, 14 cp total
T1 the plan is to hide 80 boyz as best you can. Pack them up and wrap them best you can with grots, put them out of LOS if possible or in cover if not. Bosses and weirdboyz stay with them. 6 cp is used to put the gorkanauts and deffdreads in tellyportas, with the tankbustas riding inside the gorkanauts.
Mob up one of the small squads with one of the big squads. The mobbed up squad can be warpathed and da jumped up the board (still not clear if this works, if not trade out warpath for fist of Gork or whatecer the character buffing one is) to try and clear some screens, make sure its the shoota boy squad. Use grot shield stratagem to protect any boyz squads that you can't hide. Basically, hunker down for turn 2 and wait to be da jumped in, clear screens if possible.
T2, everything lands on the board, another squad of boyz is mibbed up and da jumped in. With evil suns trait you should be able to get most of these into combat and the gorkanauts do ok with shooting as well. Use ramming speed to ensure one Gorkanaut makes its charge, and basically spread everything out best you can to tag as many shooty things as possible. Use the get stuck in stratagem on a gorkanaut that makes its charge for more killing and more tagging out of shooty units.
T3, if t2 went well then your opponent hopefully missed out on a lot of shooting due to things falling back. Tankbustas disembark, and hopefully things are crowded enough that one in each squad can toss some tankbusta bombs. If you didn't jump one of the boyz blobs up on t1 for screen clearing, jump it up now. Warbosses and weirdboyz should be moving up to smite things and hit them. Tankbustas get a nice round of shooting and any left over cp can be used to boost it. Remaining gorks and dreads do some shooting and charge in again. Hopefully at this point you will have whittled opponant down to a more manageable amount of units that you can effectively stunlock with constant charges and put them through the meatgrinder until victory.
What do you think? I may drop a Warboss for an index big mek with kff to help protect the boyz on the board until t2. Dreads have saws instead of klaws to satisfy the "half of your points must be on the table t1" rule. Does this sound like a pretty strong beta strike?
I like it, its a similar idea to what I want to run, but haven't put a list together yet. Maybe make the weirdboys snakebites instead. Im thinking about deepstriking Meganobz instead of deffdreads
the_scotsman wrote: From the MWG review, there's some interesting info about the Wazbom Blastajet:
Tellyport Blasta changed from D3 shots to 3 shots
Wazbom Mega-Kannons changed from D3 damage to D6 damage
Smasha Gun changed to D3 shots.
So, that explains the price hike on the Wazbom, I guess the question is, is it worthwhile? As someone who tries to not lean on the index crutch, I'm looking at it as a possible alternative to a bike BM for my speed freek army. -1 to hit, Fly, 12W, 5++ makes it relatively tough to take down vs most anti tank firepower, at 159 points it is a pricy investment but with each of the guns getting a bump in investment mayyyybe?
I think given how tellyport blastas work they're generally still inefficient IMO even at straight 3 shots. Although with an average of 1 hit per gun if your opponent runs a lot of Thunderwolf Cavalry, Bikers, etc you might get some use out of it?
The Long, uncontrolled bursts stratgem is probably pretty good fit on the wazbom too. The potential is there but I'm not sure if it's worth it unless you're running plenty of other fast stuff that fits under the bubble
I mean, I am. It's a speed freek army, I used a big mek on bike to keep up with all my stuff before, so that'll be handy now.
gungo wrote: Btw a meka dread with the killkannon arm and kff... is pretty awesome again!!! An evil sun double klaw w supa charga is insane...
I’m going to have to wait til the codex and faq drops....I’m fairly sure the FW units are going to have thier faq drop shortly after codex launch since the big faq deliberately had zero ork changes. I’m leaning heavily on the index to carry orks.
Warboss on bike w relic klaw
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
Wartrike
Zhardsnark
70-90 skar Boyz w Nobs w Big choppa (use green tide strat to bring back squad)
3x 10 Gretchin screens
Morkanaut or meka dread w kff 3x deff dreads w 4 klaws (deepstrike turn2)
Weirdboy w da jump.
10x tankbustas w 2 squigs (knight killers) (needs to be bad moon for double tap strat)
Some form of this is my base list....
Hoping Mek guns get kulturs but if not I still might have a few smasha/traktor guns as obj holders.
Looking at layers of protection vs first turn shooting. 5++, 5+++ then 2+ grot screen.
Didn´t they remove Warboss on Bike?
you are still allowed to use the index for models they no longer make unless you are in a tournament scene that says otherwise.
Both warhamer world and the ITC allow it... the ETC doesn’t.
I suspect the ultimate demise of the index will occur during chapter approved 2019 when the last 3-4 armies have a codex. (Sisters, genecult, khorne demonkin, agents of imperium). At that point I suspect they will get the power level only treatment. But for now outside the ETC it’s open game from everyone else.
And I think the Ork Codex is overall semi competitive, but really shines with index units especially painboy on bike/warboss on bikes..
18 smashas cost 558, basically 1-shot a non-ion shielded knight. Not as points efficient as some things, but not bad.
Great info. The only thing your calculations leave out, is traktor cannons forcing an auto explode result on units with the fly keyword. Iniitally (in the first few games), this could result in some massive damage to your opponent before they realize what is happening. In later games, just the presence of a few traktor cannons will completely change both your opponents deployment, and use of units with the fly keyword.
Psychologically, the traktor cannon has a lot going for it. I know the first time someone one shots a venom and it cascades into glorious destruction, your opponent will never play that list the same way ever again.
I view the Auto-Explodes rule as a drawback, not a plus. We orks are usually in the middle of the table, right under the planes. We are going to be the ones hit by the explosion.
Yes, you may be able to frag them on turn 1 if you go first, but that is often very difficult, especially if they have an invuln. Not much else is going to be able to reach the far corner, so the traktor has to do it on its own. With only 5/6 of a wound per turn, their 5++ may end that right away.
By turn 2 (or t1 if you go second) the plane is out and right over orks. The psychological effect gets thrown back in our face...they will position the plane right over the best of our units, including characters, hoping you explode it right above them.
Smashas are the new plasma. WAAAAAAAAY better than lascannons for price. And since we are BS 3.5+, they might be the best gun in the game.
Expect the nerfbat to hit them hard, and fast, possibly even before CA comes out. While GW might take a couple of years to fix the stompa, anything this good should be gone before the week is out.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: If I have 3 different boyz units near one trukk, and it is destroyed. Can all three of those boyz units use the "Loot it!" stratagem?
Obviously this would cost 3 cp, but can one trukk be looted by several units?
Wouldn't that mean using the stratagem 3 times in a phase? Then it's a no in matched play
greggles wrote: Thanks Jim! Like hearing your take on things (have a tournament on sat, so this is all gold).
Are you mainly pushing the smasha guns because they are so much cheaper then the KMK's?
Yes, plus D3 shots and AP-4.
I have a lot of non-invul vehicles in my meta...no saves for them!
I miss the pricing on the lobbas, until I found these at 31 points, which is ultra-dirt cheap for a model with that toughness and wounds, no matter what it does. At D3 shots, BS 3.5+, "strength" 2D6, AP-4, D6 damage, 48 inch range, this little guy really shines.
At this point I'm thinking the cost is a misprint.
greggles wrote: Thanks Jim! Like hearing your take on things (have a tournament on sat, so this is all gold).
Are you mainly pushing the smasha guns because they are so much cheaper then the KMK's?
Yes, plus D3 shots and AP-4.
I have a lot of non-invul vehicles in my meta...no saves for them!
I miss the pricing on the lobbas, until I found these at 31 points, which is ultra-dirt cheap for a model with that toughness and wounds, no matter what it does. At D3 shots, BS 3.5+, "strength" 2D6, AP-4, D6 damage, 48 inch range, this little guy really shines.
At this point I'm thinking the cost is a misprint.
Quick question to add perspective to the conversation.. Would you rather have three smasha guns or one traktor kannon. The auto hit is attractive..but at BS 4 not entirely necessary. I think 3d3 shots hitting on 4s and GENERALLY wounding in the range of 4+ (figure these would be targeted at vehicles - with an average "strength" roll being 7) while basically negating armor and doing d6 damage is WAYYYY better value then 3 hits, that wound on 3/4, still allow for an armor save.. and do d6 damage
In fantasy football lingo.. traktor kannon has a WAY higher floor.. but the smasha guns have a WAY higher ceiling.
KMK still a great option as a great compromise between the two.
*pours out a beer onto the floor* This one is for the bubblechukka. R.I.P
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Quick question to add perspective to the conversation.. Would you rather have three smasha guns or one traktor kannon. The auto hit is attractive..but at BS 4 not entirely necessary. I think 3d3 shots hitting on 4s and GENERALLY wounding in the range of 4+ (figure these would be targeted at vehicles - with an average "strength" roll being 7) while basically negating armor and doing d6 damage is WAYYYY better value then 3 hits, that wound on 3/4, still allow for an armor save.. and do d6 damage
In fantasy football lingo.. traktor kannon has a WAY higher floor.. but the smasha guns have a WAY higher ceiling.
KMK still a great option as a great compromise between the two.
*pours out a beer onto the floor* This one is for the bubblechukka. R.I.P
Smashas wound by rolling 2d6 and if the value is higher than T, it auto wounds. This is a little worse that ST8 for higher T, but against T5 the smasha wounds by rolling a 5 on 2d6.... 5/6 chance vs S8 which only wounds 2/3.
Da math is there. 16 is a misprint. Use it now, before it goes away!
How well do you guys think multiple bonecrusha lists would work? I own 3 and an addtional BW. They can put out a minimum 7 2+ hits on the charge, and up to 12 hits. It's only ap -2 but 2 damage per wound they can reliably smack infantry and heavy armor. I imagine they would ruin TEQ. S9 wounds knights on 3+.
Luckily I saved the gun tips for my three mek gunz and didn't glue them so I just have to paint these three little nozzles and I have 3 smashas.
10/10 would smash.
Doing a bit more thinking on Wazbom vs Morkanaut vs index Bikemek, the mork moves only 7 with evil sunz and it's expensive and the big mek is 121 just for the kff and character protection (the latter being a big deal I know but if lascannons are going into my plane instead of my battlewagons I don't know if I care that much). The Wazbom for 38pts gives me the two mega kannons, d3 bs4 smasha shots, 2d6 stikkbombs and a supa shoota with the added bonus of basically being anywhere on the board.
Even before the weapon buffs, why did this thing get hate?
Bone crushas's are the new gorkanauts. Math hammer has them eeking out ahead vs a gork's 18 swings on a 3+ to hit at str 8.
The str 9 is what really puts it ahead. Combine with boarding plank action (teleport unit with meganobz, ramming speed, then boarding plank, adios thing)
31 point smashs versus 46 or so point traktor cannons... I think'd I'd like the smashas due to their rate of fire on top of points. Now the only problem is that the models are so stupidly expensive to the point where they require conversion IMO. A battery of those sitting in the back is a big deal. You could get 18 for 558 points and that is a LOT of firepower to take down vehicles. Even knights will start to bulk at that firepower. Rough math says 18 d3 = 36 shots 18 hits and then you need to roll an 8 on two dice so like...8 wounds? I am not so sure on the math there. Against a 4+ knight that's 4d6 for 14 wounds. It's not 100-0 a knight any time soon( especially a broken 3+ invuln one), but it's not terrible and anything below the stupidly high benchmark of a knight is in for a bad day.
Bonecrushas seem solid. 159 points for their attack profile, durability and transport capacity is not bad at all. 9.5 attacks on twos at s9 -2 2d is nothing to laugh at. Make sure they have a KFF near them for turn 1/2 and they will perform well. I'd say the extra D6 on the charge is worth it over a normal battlewagon for 20 points, but it could be shaved off if you are desperate for points. That D6 however would be huge once the battlewagon starts to take damage and that is where the 20 point investment would really shine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Billagio wrote: I would imagine Smashas vs a FHT is probably better than a Traktor kannon, given that that kannons bonuses only work on Vehicle flyers correct?
Traktor cannon bonuses for 2d6 pick highest and auto explode only work on flyers, but they still auto hit everything.
Billagio wrote: I would imagine Smashas vs a FHT is probably better than a Traktor kannon, given that that kannons bonuses only work on Vehicle flyers correct?
Traktor cannon bonuses for 2d6 pick highest and auto explode only work on flyers, but they still auto hit everything.
Sure, but with a 4++ they have a good chance to ignore a single shot from the traktor, plus its more expensive..
I have to be honest, I'm seriously considering ditching boys in favor of nobs, meganobs, tankbustas, etc in transports.
With death skulls trait, they all have objective secured.
Even HQs would have objective secured. Aside from one morale blob, I'm tempted to ditch boys entirely and just use grots instead. Nobs and meganobs scale better. For the same cost as ten boys (bonebreaka or trukk), you can get 5 nobs or 2 meganobs with klaws. They'd also have objective secured.
The nobs could be paired with ammo runts and kitted as needed.
greggles wrote: Bone crushas's are the new gorkanauts. Math hammer has them eeking out ahead vs a gork's 18 swings on a 3+ to hit at str 8.
The str 9 is what really puts it ahead. Combine with boarding plank action (teleport unit with meganobz, ramming speed, then boarding plank, adios thing)
The boarding plank strat might not work with the bonebreaka since it doesn't actually have either the battlewagon or trukk keyword. Don't know if that's going to be FAQed or if this is meant as an argument for the normal battlewagon.
That is likely to be FAQ'd considering their article for Freebooterz claimed that the Boarding Action stratagem was going to be usable with the Battlewagon variants.
Either way, yeah, ramming speed on a bonebreaka is gonna be stronk.
With or without a few power klaw attacks. If I read the boarding action strat correctly you only get 1 attack per model anyway.
The real damage comes from the 6+D6. Then ramming speed.
It really does do a good volume of wounds. Aside from the open topped rule I see the bonebreaka being the transport of choice. Large part of why I'm gonna go mech infantry.
TedNugent wrote: Either way, yeah, ramming speed on a bonebreaka is gonna be stronk.
With or without a few power klaw attacks. If I read the boarding action strat correctly you only get 1 attack per model anyway.
The real damage comes from the 6+D6. Then ramming speed.
It really does do a good volume of wounds. Aside from the open topped rule I see the bonebreaka being the transport of choice. Large part of why I'm gonna go mech infantry.
I'm just glad that the Battlewagon with Deff Rolla ACTUALLY feels like the monster truck simulator it should be. Gore and blood everywhere while the obnoxious honking of a death machine chugs along. I'm tempted to do a blood axe detachment for the battlewagon just to abuse the fall back and charge option that they have. Which klan best fits a battlewagon rush? Evil Sunz for the extra movement, Deffskullz for versatility, or Blood Axes for the repeated D6 extra damage/ramming speed?
Sorry if the instructions are a bit tough, I can't quite figure out how to get Battlescribe auto syncing with a dropbox file.
I'm already noticing a lot of issues.
For one, the warboss, isn't it 65 points base? Why is headwhoppas kill Choppa 7 points when. It replaces a 5 point big Choppa? Why is he able to take a shoot a when this is not in the codex as a wargear option?
For the Ork boys, the nob is only 6 points. The nob also cannot have a Choppa on his slugga arm. There is no tankbustas bomb option. In the codex, you may take a bomb per 10 boyz for free.
Same thing with nob entry. Nob weapons includes a Choppa, big Choppa, etc. And you may replace the Choppa and slugga. You should be able to take the full nob gear list on both arms.
Deffkopta points are completely wrong. Trukk can't take all the options in the codex (wreckin ball, grabbing Klaw, stick bomb launch) etc etc.
Thanks Ted, looks like I missed a few changes.
I'll tackle them once I get back from work and shoot across an updated version (Including buggies)
the_scotsman wrote: Luckily I saved the gun tips for my three mek gunz and didn't glue them so I just have to paint these three little nozzles and I have 3 smashas.
10/10 would smash.
Doing a bit more thinking on Wazbom vs Morkanaut vs index Bikemek, the mork moves only 7 with evil sunz and it's expensive and the big mek is 121 just for the kff and character protection (the latter being a big deal I know but if lascannons are going into my plane instead of my battlewagons I don't know if I care that much). The Wazbom for 38pts gives me the two mega kannons, d3 bs4 smasha shots, 2d6 stikkbombs and a supa shoota with the added bonus of basically being anywhere on the board.
Even before the weapon buffs, why did this thing get hate?
if ur going this route meka dread with killkannon/kff is nice. Ur going to have a hard time keeping anything within 9in of the wazbom with its movement. It wasn’t bad just expensive.
Codex like this are why I’m glad I magnatize everything!!! It takes longer to build but they give me much more options.
If you don’t want to repaint everything they sell colored base rings you clip onto the bases that allow you to not only differentiate clans but units. So like all orks w blue bases are deathskull and all red ones are evil suns and all yellow are bad moons. It gets a bit trickier with vehicles but odds are all vehicles are part of one detachment anyway. The rings fit 24 or 32mm bases.
