warhead01 wrote: After my last game I started thinking about adding big shootas and kustom shootas to my shoota mobs riding in trukks. I'm also tempted to move the squad size up to 12 models.
24 shoota shots and 3 Big shootas shots from 3 or 4 mobs in trukks. Any one do this? How has it worked out for you?
Yes, I have. It's worked out terrible so far haha. But mind you this is before dakkadakkadakka and eventual points drops on the trukks. The damage simply isn't there if we're being honest. It's still fun though. I really hope that the codex brings some viability to speed freeks and vehicle heavy ork lists in general now that this release seems focused on just that. I really don't know how they'd make trukkboyz viable though. They'd have to make the trukk flimsier and chop its points in half for it to even be a thing I think.
Thanks for the reply!
My last list had 3 mobs of 10 shoota boys in trukks and I thought it went really well against Raven Guard min/makes walking gunline. (The SM army kinda sucked but was also difficult to deal with due to good saves and 2 wound models.) I think that's partly why, I would drop all of my fire power on one squad at a time but it it did take all of it to have an impact. D3 really really helped! For some reason I was thinking 10 boys, a Kustom shoota and a big shoota might be worth the 10 points they cost as a slight list change.
But you think the trukk is the weak link? Wondering if a points drop is coming, that's be nice.
I put 6 tank hammer in my list and am planning to drop a few of them, they didn't work as planed but I think that was on me, having never used them before.
I'm fully expecting the "32mm base" thing to only ever really be an issue if they release new infantry kits that have only ever come with 32mm bases and people put them on a 25mm
otherwise I can't see many events trying to dictate rebasing of older models, its just a rabbit hole you don't want to go down
warhead01 wrote: After my last game I started thinking about adding big shootas and kustom shootas to my shoota mobs riding in trukks. I'm also tempted to move the squad size up to 12 models.
24 shoota shots and 3 Big shootas shots from 3 or 4 mobs in trukks. Any one do this? How has it worked out for you?
I never do that because of the extra time involved in rolling them separately. Anything that costs time will steal precious seconds from your limited supply. I'd rather be more careful when placing boyz than get a tiny boost in shooting from one model.
6 points. and 4 more for the kustom shoota. 10 points for a tiny buff to already bad shooting. It's hard to justify. Now if burnas go to d6 hits and can be put in a boys squad again....
Thanks for all the comments on my question.
I was playing mobs in trukks so positioning wasn't overly complicated until the last turn and a half. My opponent took a 30 to 60 days away from 40K and came back with marines and isn't yet practiced with them, I think Our game was his 3rd with his nu-army. Bassicly all I had to deal with were bolter weapons and Hellblasters.
I knew my list would be soft as I just put something together to play and I never play a trukk based army. Just less work than my usual foot slogers.
Looking at my list I was just thinking that my tank hammers were kinda not worth the points, that game. I think out of 6 4 made combat and only 3 hit. Bad luck I guess.
I did field 2 war koptas and they were ok. My over all plan involved dropping bomba and mortal wounds but neither of my warkoptas got the chance.
I also had a dakka jet in my list and am thinking about trading it out for either a second Blitza bomba or a second burna bomba.
As far as dice time with the big shootas my thoughts are what ever the trukk targets the big shoota will as well, and I'll roll them together if my opponent doesn't care.
We have a tournament on the 20th but I'm not sure I want to take my index back out for that with the codex so close it almost feels pointless or at least a bit sad.
I did field 2 war koptas and they were ok. My over all plan involved dropping bomba and mortal wounds but neither of my warkoptas got the chance.
.
by "war kopta" do you mean deathkopters or chinorks?
Chinork. I at one point had the points for 2 rattler cannons each but decided to go with the stock options. I do wish I had gone with those rattlers though.
So gang, I'll be playing a game against Grey Knights this Wednesday and I'm not sure what to expect or what would be good. I've heard that Grey Knights are supposed to be bottom of the barrel this edition so it may be an opportunity for a tighter game with the boyz. It's 2000 points and all I know is that he only has one dread knight, not sure if he will run it as a grand master or not.
What should I bring? Here's what I have to work with:
I plan to bring as many boyz and stormboyz as I can, but what should I fill out the remainder with? I feel like my dreads and such might actually be useful in this match as I understand GK are light on ranged anti-tank, and expensive models with high armor saves are a dread's favorite snack. What do you think?
Gk are light on at but dreads don#t need much and dreadnight grand master can mulch him.
Frankly standard ork tactic will work wonders. Gk is so soft even orks are at advantage. Just be vary if he brings multiflamer squad. Usually not a choice(they are bad) but vs orks can do wonders
Gk are light on at but dreads don#t need much and dreadnight grand master can mulch him.
Frankly standard ork tactic will work wonders. Gk is so soft even orks are at advantage. Just be vary if he brings multiflamer squad. Usually not a choice(they are bad) but vs orks can do wonders
I don't own any KMK or a huge amount of boyz so really all the standard ork advice can't be applied here, and it is versus GK so the "you are going to be tabled" doomsayers don't have a point either. I thought that it might be a chance to talk more nuanced tactics for orks.
I don't own any KMK or a huge amount of boyz so really all the standard ork advice can't be applied here, and it is versus GK so the "you are going to be tabled" doomsayers don't have a point either. I thought that it might be a chance to talk more nuanced tactics for orks.
i havent played against greyknight, but form what youve listed then you dont have many standard options people bring to try to be competitive.
while i dont know how killkans/defdredds/gmorkanauts will do in this case (like i said,havent played the greyknights),but the general idea is that they are not worth their points. so try bringing anything that isnt those (it pains me to say that, i love those models)(this same advice goes for any vehicle like the truck, too expensive). try to go for as much infantry as you can, swamp him with as much bodies you can bring.
Gk are light on at but dreads don#t need much and dreadnight grand master can mulch him.
Frankly standard ork tactic will work wonders. Gk is so soft even orks are at advantage. Just be vary if he brings multiflamer squad. Usually not a choice(they are bad) but vs orks can do wonders
I don't own any KMK or a huge amount of boyz so really all the standard ork advice can't be applied here, and it is versus GK so the "you are going to be tabled" doomsayers don't have a point either. I thought that it might be a chance to talk more nuanced tactics for orks.
Yeah noticed what you have. That's seriously limited collection. Can't even bring 2 useful battallions...Would at least get 2 units of grots to do that and unlock more HQ slots. For example now ran into those.
Anyway for example:
warboss w/relic, kff mek, weirdboy(would like another weirdboy), 3x30 boyz, 5 tank bustas in trukk, 2 dreadnought, 2 gorkanaut. 10 grots probably fit depending on dreadnought armaments.
Other option you have even models would be shooty ones with lootas and flash gits but that's sucking so bad you could even be dog against GK and that's bad. But here you would indeed be trying to capitalize on their relative lack of AT(though it's not that bad that orks would have it easy...GKAT sucks but so does ork vehicles). Grand master will smash one without ease which is why double all walkers. One gorkanaut would be basically grand master's lunch. With 2 second could take it out in return(though 3++ is worry...). Ditto dreadnought. Keep them close so if grand master takes out one remaining 3 can pile in.
90 boyz is super thin vs all those stormbolters so good luck there. If you had double the number GK would struggle but 90 is more manageable for GK.
Alas your model collection doesn't really allow taking advantage of orks over GK.
mhalko1 wrote: Where did the post about WL traits come from? I still haven't seen it yet and don't know how far back in this thread they go.
Those are technically rumours from a youtube poster named Kirioth. They are considered pretty likely though as he leaked some of the buggies and their names before GW had released any actual info on them. He is also the source (or rather the conduit since he gets his info from a anonymous source) of the rumoured clan traits
koooaei wrote: New wl traits seem ok-ish.
Looking forward to seeing sag rules. Wl big mek might be a decent sniper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, freeboota kmk gunlines seem more and more realistic.
Agreed on SAG Mek depending on SAG rules. I get the feeling that Freeboota options will be locked to Flash Giits and Badrukk. Maybe we can make other transports Freeboota but that'll be it. I get this impression because of the way GW said they were going to preview the rules for the 6 clans rather than 7. It's like they don't consider the Freebootas a clan proper.
Lol what a game todav. Took stompa, 2xgorkanaut, 3xkmk and 3x10 grot. Oh and kff mek. Knew i would lose but didn#t expect this quick massare. Was up against renegade knight, 2 helverin and 3 contemptator who fired total 6d6 shots hitting 2 rerolling 1's and hit mortal wound.
Recon scenario that i hate most. I started with gorkanauts, he with helverins. He got t1 and got all but some character, i didn't get stompa
He came, cripled both gorkanauts. Turn 2 both and 2 kmk dead. Turn 3 shot and charged with 2 contemptator vs stompa that took 36 wounds. I had got 1 to 2 wounds(oh alpha legion btw) and then he finished me off.
It really screws up any army that aims for getting into close combat, or even into short range fight. Shooty gunlines don't really need help over this one.
Solosam47 wrote: I hope Ork walkers get a improvement, it’s a crime the stomps is so meh, matter of fact I don’t remember em being any good in 8th. Makes me so sad.
I think the last time walkers were good was back in the days of the forgeworld Dread Mob list, which was ok in 6th and even had a semi-decent (but not really competitive) update for 7th i believe.
Doesn't exist for 8th I don't think, would be nice though. Doubt it'll be in the codex for sure.
To be fair buzzgrob kustom stompa with the misprinted but probably correct price was popular early in 7th edition and fairly competitive.
But ya ork Mek lists need help.
as ive stated before, maybe the way they can make all our walkers good again is half all their points and then pair that with our new clan traits and i think we might be able to fit into the walker meta.
They also died instantly when 6th came out. Almost all power of the kan wall was related to KFF providing a 4+ cover save to kanz and vehicle squadrons providing 4+ cover to anything behind them.
Unusually after the massacre defeat as I was killing time there(game ended around 18:40, train departs 20:27) I got challenged for next week opponent already. Usually like yesterday I just show up and see who's up for game. I'll be facing the less nasty dark angels with no Azrael or plasma squad from hell. We agreed not to do anything too crazy which albeit is hard for orks. He also specified no stompa which I found funny but not sure I could stomach that mega handicap twice in row anyway
I'm ATM painting the stormboyz like crazy so was thinking of doing list based on them so...2 battallions
It's certainly one of the more competive ork builds but orks aren't super competive anyway so shouldn't be too hard and at least this list is going to try to get to combat rather than just survive and win by objectives. Stormboyz rush forward full speed and big shoota mob gets da jumped for T1. I try to cram as much as possible inside KFF bubble. At least stormboyz should fit there and I think they are priority target. Warbikers are more for fun and trying something new eventhough I know they are fairly weak but then again he's not bringing worst that DA can bring either. Remaining 2 boyz will form 2nd wave by foot or da jump as needs dictate. Grots just there to fill battallion to give me HQ's and FA slots and hold objectives.
With all the new buggies I feel it is are gonna be pigeon holed into winky fast lists to be competitive. I mean it's cool and all if they become more competitive than what they are now but man, I just want to run mechs, boys, and Manz. Big mean burly ORKS !
I forgot about good ol buzzgob and his kick was stomps, good times
Odds are at best 2 of the new buggies are worth it and the others are just poor shooting platforms with mediocre assault profiles.
My guess is warboss on trike is going to be a better version of warboss on bike (which will likely be removed from codex since no model)
And squig buggy since squig bombs are phenomenal already.
gungo wrote: Odds are at best 2 of the new buggies are worth it and the others are just poor shooting platforms with mediocre assault profiles.
My guess is warboss on trike is going to be a better version of warboss on bike (which will likely be removed from codex since no model)
And squig buggy since squig bombs are phenomenal already.
I wonder if the new warboss on trike is just going to -be- the warboss on bike from the index, but with some updated rules. Though I guess that's the same as what you said, but I mean it as being an intentional replacement and not just "here's a new model, and we are removing the old option entirely".
I suspect people will play their old warboss on bike conversions as the new 'biker warboss'. Throw a sidecar on their bike with a grot in it and you're golden.
Also I was going to reply to say that the Shokk Attack Gun hasn't changed since the index, but seems you ninja-edited that out of your post so I guess you noticed it too haha.
tneva82 wrote: I'm ATM painting the stormboyz like crazy so was thinking of doing list based on them so...2 battallions
PSA: the new fly rules from the big faq 2 seriously impact the effectiveness of stormboyz, reconsider this option or at least take it into account. You can no longer fly over terrain while charging, so charging out of LOS over a big wall is now not allowed, and you can no longer charge over screens, making tri-pointing a model much more difficult. I would consider stormboyz more of a flyer-killer role, rather than a strictly better boy from now on (obviously depends on the codex).
gungo wrote: Odds are at best 2 of the new buggies are worth it and the others are just poor shooting platforms with mediocre assault profiles.
My guess is warboss on trike is going to be a better version of warboss on bike (which will likely be removed from codex since no model)
And squig buggy since squig bombs are phenomenal already.
I wonder if the new warboss on trike is just going to -be- the warboss on bike from the index, but with some updated rules. Though I guess that's the same as what you said, but I mean it as being an intentional replacement and not just "here's a new model, and we are removing the old option entirely".
I suspect people will play their old warboss on bike conversions as the new 'biker warboss'. Throw a sidecar on their bike with a grot in it and you're golden.
Also I was going to reply to say that the Shokk Attack Gun hasn't changed since the index, but seems you ninja-edited that out of your post so I guess you noticed it too haha.
Ya I reread the shokk atk profile and was like nope it’s the same
Regarding the old warboss on bike... I suspect zhardsnark will still be available and I’m assuming updated since not a single ork model or rule was touched during the big faq update. So you can still use your old warboss on bike as the new Wartrike option or zhardsnark. I never made a conversation myself I just used zhardsnark model.
tneva82 wrote: I'm ATM painting the stormboyz like crazy so was thinking of doing list based on them so...2 battallions
PSA: the new fly rules from the big faq 2 seriously impact the effectiveness of stormboyz, reconsider this option or at least take it into account. You can no longer fly over terrain while charging, so charging out of LOS over a big wall is now not allowed, and you can no longer charge over screens, making tri-pointing a model much more difficult. I would consider stormboyz more of a flyer-killer role, rather than a strictly better boy from now on (obviously depends on the codex).
Yes I know it but then again I never used that before anyway(and that 3 pointing btw would be useless for charging anyway. It needs to be done consolidiating into squad you DIDN'T charge. If you charged you have to attack and those models are taken out as casualties anyway. And I hate that gimmick gaming system so flat out refuse to do that anyway).
Stormboyz are still 12" moving so unlike boyz might actually get into the combat unlike boyz you shouldn't even treat as serious h2h unit as they won't make into combat anyway. Those are just threat of h2h rather than actually getting into combat.
And besides flying killing is useful seeing orks aren't shooting flyers out. And 1 unit isn't enough. 30 stormboyz is easily shot by fragment of shooting. You are looking for easy 60 models taken out per turn. 30 stormboyz is thus dead without even enemy shooting everything at them. Thus if you take them for flying units hunting you pretty much need to max out on them. 1 unit might just as well not bother with to begin with.
His point is still valid - as you can no longer jump over the model you want to arrest during consolidate, 3-pointing it is a lot harder.
During the first two turns of my last game I lost 60 pox walkers buffed by typhus and blight hauler (T4/6+/5+++) plus another 30 cultists or so.
I have no illusions of even a single storm boy being alive after turn one, so their speed is all but irrelevant. Judging from tournament lists, the players in events agree and just bring moar boyz.
Well I have never done 3 pointing. I don't do it during charge phase and generally short of super heavies or some flying targets both which don't give a rat ass about 3 pointing I have found either one unit gets vaporized anyway.
Not to mention I don't do 3 pointing in any case PERIOD as it's stupid suspension breaking gaming system.
And if speed is irrelevant so is 3 pointing because you wouldn't get to combat to 3 point anything anyway.
So basically the nerf actually doesn't hurt me at all since I have never actually used the fly ability in assault phase anyway after GW removed ability to assault into upper room without room which made upper rooms unassaultable so that was irrelevant. Fly has always been useful for me only during movement phase.
And btw I'm not facing tournament level lists so I don't need to bring tournament level lists myself either.
Fine whatever but if we go for "take only boyz" no point discussing.
But it's pointless to start pointing the FAQ change for me since the FAQ change has zero impact for my stormboyz. Never used the fly during since spring FAQ so the stormboyz are 100% identical before and after fall faq for me. I don't use the 3 pointing thing so whatever. And I never have had reach to reach anything beyond screens anyway so have been just charging into whatever I can charge.
If you look at it nothing what I take matters because even boyz gets blown apart so frankly even if I go for boyz only it will be same. Stormboyz cost 33% more but get to combat on turn 2 rather than turn 3 so enemy has 1-2 turns of shooting rather than 2-3 turns. That means cutting down firepower by 33-50%. Not that bad deal and maybe something reach combat so I can actually roll some other dice than just armour saves here and there. Either way orks will be blown off the board but rolling some attacks for a change might be fun.
tneva82 wrote: Fine whatever but if we go for "take only boyz" no point discussing.
Nah, it was more to chime in with the "Storm boyz need something more than being faster boyz". I don't know, something like a stratagem that lets them drop a stikkbomb each on a unit they moved over.
But it's pointless to start pointing the FAQ change for me since the FAQ change has zero impact for my stormboyz. Never used the fly during since spring FAQ so the stormboyz are 100% identical before and after fall faq for me. I don't use the 3 pointing thing so whatever. And I never have had reach to reach anything beyond screens anyway so have been just charging into whatever I can charge.
To be fair, that line of argumentation is on par with "32mm boyz don't affect me because I only ever run boyz in transports". Considering how many gretchin you say you bring to games, I can only advice trying to 3-point knights or similar models, as it really helps you fight those things.
If you look at it nothing what I take matters because even boyz gets blown apart so frankly even if I go for boyz only it will be same. Stormboyz cost 33% more but get to combat on turn 2 rather than turn 3 so enemy has 1-2 turns of shooting rather than 2-3 turns. That means cutting down firepower by 33-50%. Not that bad deal and maybe something reach combat so I can actually roll some other dice than just armour saves here and there. Either way orks will be blown off the board but rolling some attacks for a change might be fun.
From my perspective, this is the main reason to get not any stormboyz despite my main klan being blood axes. You invest a crapton of money and work into a unit (or two) that simply gets set up and packed away again. Might as well be using the boyz I already have to do that.
I cannot see them survive long enough to actually roll attacks - none of my opponents are kind enough to deploy within 24" of them.
If I want to pick up a hundred euros and multiple days worth of painting turn one, I can just field Mortarion
Stormboyz seem to be a ninety-or-none thing in competitive. Anyone have good experience running them with ninety? I'm tempted to very slowly start building towards that due to the extra mobility. Stormboyz seem to be a pretty good place to plonk a KFF with turn 1 as you know they'll be a priority target over basic boyz.
Jidmah wrote: [
From my perspective, this is the main reason to get not any stormboyz despite my main klan being blood axes. You invest a crapton of money and work into a unit (or two) that simply gets set up and packed away again. Might as well be using the boyz I already have to do that.
I cannot see them survive long enough to actually roll attacks - none of my opponents are kind enough to deploy within 24" of them.
If I want to pick up a hundred euros and multiple days worth of painting turn one, I can just field Mortarion
On that logic not worth getting any orks as they are all going to be shot to pieces. What are you still playing then since you just set them up and pack up without accomplishing anything to do with...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Stormboyz seem to be a ninety-or-none thing in competitive. Anyone have good experience running them with ninety? I'm tempted to very slowly start building towards that due to the extra mobility. Stormboyz seem to be a pretty good place to plonk a KFF with turn 1 as you know they'll be a priority target over basic boyz.
You just described what I'm trying. 90(well 85 for now until I get remaining 5 assembled at least), KFF+painboy, charge up.
Weazel wrote: What is threepointing? Encircling enemies so they can't fall back, or something else?
Yes. In theory, three models can prevent an enemy model from moving by placing them in a perfect triangle around them. When you do that during during consolidation, the model can't fall back and your unit is protected from shooting.
For super-heavies this is a bit more tricky, since you cannot be in combat, but the idea is the same. A few gretchin just outside 1" of a knight can prevent it from moving since it cannot move over infantry when not falling back. It doesn't matter if he shoots them to bits afterwards, because the movement phase is wasted already.
Jidmah wrote: [
From my perspective, this is the main reason to get not any stormboyz despite my main klan being blood axes. You invest a crapton of money and work into a unit (or two) that simply gets set up and packed away again. Might as well be using the boyz I already have to do that.
I cannot see them survive long enough to actually roll attacks - none of my opponents are kind enough to deploy within 24" of them.
If I want to pick up a hundred euros and multiple days worth of painting turn one, I can just field Mortarion
On that logic not worth getting any orks as they are all going to be shot to pieces. What are you still playing then since you just set them up and pack up without accomplishing anything to do with...
What I'm playing? Death Guard
I've also hunted down most metal characters from the index, those stay alive long enough to do something. Still missing metal Zagstrukk. I have a KMB big mek though, I wonder if that model is ever worth anything on the battlefield
Mentions "different squig breeds on the model, including bile squigs, a squig hound, a squig mine and even the elusive buzzer squig"
Looks like it has a squig launcher!
Not sure on the point of the Hound, but I suspect it'll have a couple different options.
- Lay a mine on a point behind where it has travelled (which is not a great ability, unless the mine can move like a spore mine afterwards)
- Able to choose between a couple different 'shots' like a krak/frag missile launcher.
It might be that the mine squig is even more like a spore mine, and that the launcher will actually launch the mine, giving the squig launcher 3 possible firing modes. It's likely (knowing GW) that only one (maybe 2) of the modes will actually ever see play though lol.
Squig Hound sounds like some kind of homing squig, in my opinion. Chases down its target, especially if deys a squishy umie in a red jacket on a 'orse.
Squig Hound: If a unit comprised entirely of GRETCHIN fails a Morale test and is within 3" of any friendly Runtherds with a squig hound, ignore the result. D3 models from the unit are slain instead.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Squig Hound sounds like some kind of homing squig, in my opinion. Chases down its target, especially if deys a squishy umie in a red jacket on a 'orse.
I mean yes, potentially, but the thing about hounds, the important thing, the thing to remember... is that they're hounds.
So homing by running along the ground, yes.
Homing by flying through the air... no.
It might be a bonus melee attack, much like an attack squig is now, giving the trukk +2 attacks in melee... but that would seem a little pointless.
Though I'm warming to the idea that this trukk is an Orky Biovore. Each squig type ends up landing on the table and has it's own movement. Hounds would be fast and home towards enemies. The acid squigs do bonus damage to armour. Etc.
Problem with that is that you would need squig models to represent them on the table. Which would be AMAZING. But GW haven't shown or released any, so I suspect it'll actually just be another missile launcher. Pity.
Now I'm considering a Ork/Tyranid (Tyranork? Orkanid?) list, with spore mines being represented by squigs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Squig hound is a rule on the runtherd:
Squig Hound: If a unit comprised entirely of GRETCHIN fails a Morale test and is within 3" of any friendly Runtherds with a squig hound, ignore the result. D3 models from the unit are slain instead.
This will definitely not be it, as even GW must know how totally useless this would be for a vehicle. Unless it confers this morale boost to all units within 18" or something, but even then it's pretty bad as runtherds are cheap.
I doubt he is reinventing the wheel here.
I suspect at least 1 profile is just a longer range squig bomb like tabkbustas have without the rerolll vs vehicles as that’s really a tabkbustas unit rule.
I realize they are showing all the buggies because this is really a tie in to speed freak box set by I truly hope we get a new ghaz model.
Also I hope this is the year the stompa isn’t utter crap....
gungo wrote: I doubt he is reinventing the wheel here.
I suspect at least 1 profile is just a longer range squig bomb like tabkbustas have without the rerolll vs vehicles as that’s really a tabkbustas unit rule.
I realize they are showing all the buggies because this is really a tie in to speed freak box set by I truly hope we get a new ghaz model.
Also I hope this is the year the stompa isn’t utter crap....
I’m with ya on Ghazghkull and Stompa. Although right now my worries center around this major push towards speed freaks and buggies. Don’t get me wrong they look great and even now I’m drooling over the squigbuggie but at the end of the day I don’t want my army centered around speed like that. I like me meks, walkas, n boyz with a big ol warboss to lead em damn it! Lol
Well here is to hoping for the best when the dex drops at the end of the month!
Jidmah wrote: For super-heavies this is a bit more tricky, since you cannot be in combat, but the idea is the same. A few gretchin just outside 1" of a knight can prevent it from moving since it cannot move over infantry when not falling back. It doesn't matter if he shoots them to bits afterwards, because the movement phase is wasted already.
Just be careful of any knight with relic/warlord trait which often is all of them. If you park your gretchins 1" front of him he'll heroic intervene and kills quite a lot possibly clearing hole in YOUR turn.
tneva82 wrote: Fine whatever but if we go for "take only boyz" no point discussing.
But it's pointless to start pointing the FAQ change for me since the FAQ change has zero impact for my stormboyz. Never used the fly during since spring FAQ so the stormboyz are 100% identical before and after fall faq for me. I don't use the 3 pointing thing so whatever. And I never have had reach to reach anything beyond screens anyway so have been just charging into whatever I can charge.
If you look at it nothing what I take matters because even boyz gets blown apart so frankly even if I go for boyz only it will be same. Stormboyz cost 33% more but get to combat on turn 2 rather than turn 3 so enemy has 1-2 turns of shooting rather than 2-3 turns. That means cutting down firepower by 33-50%. Not that bad deal and maybe something reach combat so I can actually roll some other dice than just armour saves here and there. Either way orks will be blown off the board but rolling some attacks for a change might be fun.
Look, I don't mean to be rude or put you on show, but the way you describe using stormboyz is a critical misstep for orks. Tripointing, charging out of LOS, charging HQ over screens. These are gameplay tactics, that you are willingly/intentionally not using. They will definitely be the difference between success and failure in EVERY game you charge with a stormboy. That is not an exaggeration.
It may also be a significant reason some people think Orks are terrible and others think they are awesome. If you're playing stormboyz without tripointing, charging from inside a building, or jumping over screens EVER, you're not playing the same xenos army as me. You throw these mechanics away as if they are meaningless, but they win games. Tactics like this may seem "small" and "unfluffy" to you, but they are the edge we need to win. Unfortunately, they have been undone in the FAQ. This is why I consider it a significant downfall of the stormboy, and you are unperturbed by these changes. That says a lot, right?
Now this may be controversial, but I personally think that if you are not doing these basic tactics, you have no right to complain about Ork effectiveness, because you are not trying to win. So when you say "nothing I take matters" I imagine you say that because you are not trying to take every edge you can, and you falsely believe that means you will always lose. But perhaps another Ork player could take your army to significant victory by trying harder with their tactics.
I honestly don't mean to be rude, but perhaps just attack that contradictory frame of mind that you find yourself in. And if I am honest, I suspect a lot of people are also in your shoes, which is why I made a big deal out of this.
Tripointing is abusing illogical game rule for advantage that breaks all sense of suspension of disbelief. Not to mention requires enemy to put another unit nearby to charge so that I can consolidiate conveniently AND that opponent doesn't prevent tri stepping by positioning of own models which is quite doable.
Charging out of LOS and HQ over screen I haven't been able to do because opponent funnily enough knows that's possible so don't allow it. You assume opponents park their characters conveniently in place I can charge them with fly rule. They don't. Threat range of stormboyz is known variable so they simply keep characters far enough so I have option of either charge screen or park my stormboyz front of screen for next turn because I dont' have movement range to reach screen. So which one should I take? Charge screen, wipe it and see if I can survive or simply wait there in the open being shot including by that screen...
I don't play against bad players who let me charge whatever I want. They measure how far my stormboyz are to their character and then put characters so far that I need to roll 13" to charge them. Good luck doing that.
I think you'll find that once you start tripointing, you'll be able to very easily threaten HQ. It changes the game, man.
edit: i played orks in tournament settings, alright not gakky players. This was not uncommon:
1: charge a screen that ends next to another screen.
2: delete the charged screen, tripoint the second screen.
3: kill the 2nd screen in combat on their turn
4: move and charge HQ + surround tanks etc.
You can often do this turn 1 with stormboyz if you deploy aggressively.
a) that requires abusing gamey rules breaking suspension of disbelief
b) that assumes opponent parks multiple units nearby so that I can charge one without charging other AND doesn't then deploy units so that tripointing is impossible which is easy to do particularly vs stormboyz that arent' even that fast.
So abusing rules and expecting opponent to be bad player. Yeah thanks but no thanks.
and T1 charge with stormboyz? 12"+3d6"=23.5" threat range. WTF? Even if you roll 2 over average you shouldn't get anywhere nearby against competent player. Only fool deploys exactly 24.01" front of orks unless they are h2h army that will then tear up anything orks throw at. Gunlines starts 28" away from you MINIMUM. Good luck T1 charging that. And then even being able to tripoint. Are you playing against idiots or what?
I think most people call it tactics. Tricks like these make the game way more interesting than just rolling dice and seeing who rolls better.
Through this trick I can destroy an opposing gunline with ONE melee unit that makes it in combat if they don't know how to deal with it. And there are ways to deal with it:
1. Interrupt to go base to base first so I can't move during pile in.
2. Use one big unit to screen me away 12'' from your army so I can't even declare a charge against them
3. Use FLY screens so you can retreat
4. Use a lot of smite
5. Use melee units
My last tournament I went up against a gunline and once I got a unit in combat - their game was DONE. I tripointed 3 turns in a row and they didn't understand what to do - they can't shoot my melee blob, they can't shoot my characters(blob is closer and characters are surrounded in it), everything else is hiding from line of sight.
There are plenty of tricks like these:
1. charging a shooty unit but putting only 1 model in combat so you surround them and kill them next turn
2. Using CCW that every model has so you punch with 0 AP and str User so you don't kill stuff(relevant to big stuff like Magnus. This way he can charge SM scouts but they still survive since they make their normal saves and then surround the SM scout unit with a blob unit)
3. Charging 1 unit but sending 3 models to tripoint another unit, that has strong overwatch(Which you ignore this way)
Can you guys illustrate this tri point thing with pics / diagrams? Me confused.
How can you tripoint say a 20 man unit of cultists strung out in a conga line? You'd need a billion models to close off their retreat lanes no?
How can you tri point a large tank like a LR?
Are you talking about tri pointing a single character model?
Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.
Yeah, but you have to attack in CC right? You don't have to use the weapons on the datasheet to do it but against weaker eenmy unit that you want to merely tie up in CC it might still be enough to kill a few, meaning your opponent is going to remove the sorrounded models as casualties first. Although I guess this can be circumvented if you consolidate into the unit, thus making it an ineligible unit to attack..
I really wish that tanks could back out of CC and still fire that turn at a -1 modifier to hit. Or that they have a "main weapon" nominated on their datasheet and that weapon can still fire while in CC but not against the unit they're currently in CC with..
Ratius wrote: Can you guys illustrate this tri point thing with pics / diagrams? Me confused.
How can you tripoint say a 20 man unit of cultists strung out in a conga line? You'd need a billion models to close off their retreat lanes no?
How can you tri point a large tank like a LR?
Are you talking about tri pointing a single character model?
I attached a drawing. The idea with cultists is to prevent a single model from falling back. The others cannot move more than 2" from it, so they are stuck in combat with the orks. The important part is to do this with a unit you are not attacking (not declared as target/after fighting), otherwise they will just remove the arrested model as casualty.
A box-formed tank needs four models to arrest, basic geometry. Any circular or elipse-formed base can be arrested using just three models, but without a lot of practice, you will often allow the model to escape if you are off by an 8th of an inch.
Ratius, everyone's been super helpful with explaining it, so I hope you understand. I'd like to add that your goal with tripointing is to kill the tripointed unit in their combat phase. This means that their shooting and charge phase have already ended, and you will have a free to move boyz unit that can charge when it is your turn again (provided you kill enough in the unit you tripointed).
This ends up being very complicated in practice to be ideal, otherwise you might end up keeping your boyz in combat for your next turn, which kinda sucks (but is still better than not tripointing). Practice it! and remember that most of the boyz do not need to run at the target you charged, in fact you might not even want to attack it at all.
For example, you charge unit A, you're 9" away and you get a 9" charge. If any one of your boyz are less than 14" away from any other small model/unit, you can tripoint it, because you have another 6" of movement thanks to pile in and consolidate (let's call that unit, unit B). So... You complete your charge by sending a few boys towards unit A and most of the boys towards unit B (stay an inch away, you have to), then pile in and consolidate your 6" around any small dude inside unit B.
Who cares if unit A survives, what is essential is that unit B dies in their combat phase. Unit B is the target, and it is often better if unit B is closer to you than unit A.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Tripoint works agianst small models. Like 1 of 10 fire warriors.
It's just surrounding at least 1 enemy model so it can't move its base out of combat. The tripoint specifically is that you only need 3 models to do that against non giant base models. You form a triangle with your models around an enemy model.
Yeah, but you have to attack in CC right? You don't have to use the weapons on the datasheet to do it but against weaker eenmy unit that you want to merely tie up in CC it might still be enough to kill a few, meaning your opponent is going to remove the sorrounded models as casualties first. Although I guess this can be circumvented if you consolidate into the unit, thus making it an ineligible unit to attack..
I really wish that tanks could back out of CC and still fire that turn at a -1 modifier to hit. Or that they have a "main weapon" nominated on their datasheet and that weapon can still fire while in CC but not against the unit they're currently in CC with..
You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.
I personally send as much as I can to the unit I didn't charge in order to confidently kill them in 1 combat (their turn), ideally you can get away with half half though.
It's usually like 4 attacks from units that hit on a 4, wound on a 5...
Also the tactic is amazing against flamers.
"Oh no, 3 tanks with 2x flamer overwatch. Oh look, a single surviving cultist within 12'' of them. Charge cultist, pile in into the tanks"
rvd1ofakind wrote: You can only attack the units you charged. So you see 2 units, charge the one with crap overwatch and good melee to kill it and send 3 models to the unit with amazing overwatch(that you didn't charge). During pile in you can move within 1'' of units you didn't charge too so you use those 6'' to surround the model.
I personally send as much as I can to the unit I didn't charge in order to confidently kill them in 1 combat (their turn), ideally you can get away with half half though.
In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.
SemperMortis wrote: In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.
I mean, sure... In the 40k-verse some armies would certainly adhere to that "honour-system" (let's call it) but I'm guessing there's afair amount of the factions that would not bat an eye if their buddy is torn apart by nids as long as they can get away/attack something else. Some things you just have to accept for the sake of balance purposes I guess
Maybe they should allow units to fall back if they accept that any that can't do so are slain? Would help remove the issue and allow more kills for partially surrounding units.
DoomMouse wrote: Maybe they should allow units to fall back if they accept that any that can't do so are slain? Would help remove the issue and allow more kills for partially surrounding units.
As long as fall back comes with an inherent downside, sure.
Most close combat units struggle to reach combat, and once they are there deal way less damage than a similar unit would have when shooting.
As long as fall back has now downsides compared to staying in combat, arrest is a good, though obvious unintended, countermeasure.
SemperMortis wrote: In regards to suspending belief because of tripointing....that happens in combat all the time. If a unit has a squad or even a single man cut off by the enemy they usually will attempt to rescue them as abandoning one of your own is a lot harder then you seem to think it is. So in this way Tri-pointing represents a unit having a member cut off by the enemy and them sticking around to try and rescue them.
This is, of course, absolute garbage.
I mean I have nothing against tri-pointing in itself, it's allowed by the rules so it's not cheating or anything, but trying to say that it's supported in any way by fluff or realism is the absolute height of stupidity.
You're saying that a squad will hang around to rescue a pinned team-mate? Yes, sure, that part is fine.
But that squad, when seeing a unit of the enemy charging at them, is ALSO going to fire their overwatch at them in an attempt to stop them from pinning their teammate in the first place.
They are NOT going to go "oh, no, hold your fire, they're actually charging that other squad over there, they're just veering in our direction accidentally! Better give those bloodthirsty orks / marauding tyranid horrors the benefit of the doubt and not shoot at them, I'm sure everything will be fine argh argh splat".
If you choose to pile in to a second unit, that unit should get to overwatch. End of story.
But the rules don't say this, and so tripointing is a perfectly valid tactic. That's fine. But don't try and justify it, it has no justification, it's cheese pure and simple.
This is just an extension to the idea of daisy chaining units in a way to try and ensure that the enemy isn't killed in one round of combat. I'm sure any player of a melee centric army has done this. I've had players spit feathers that it's not fluffy but you can explain almost anything away in a fluffy sense - in this case the Orks were too busy fighting each other to properly charge in. Admittedly I found it a lot harder to explain how the Painboy was able to heal the Boys from across the board
Not sure why the quotes, it seems like you're implying I'm contradicting myself somehow, except that I didn't at all.
If someone (lets call him person A) used tri-pointing against me, I wouldn't complain. It's allowed by the rules, it's totally fair play. Good for them.
If, however, someone (lets call him Person B) tried to justify it by saying "see, this is how armies in the real world would work as well", I would likely laugh in their face at their stupidity.
The first person is a canny, tactical player, using every advantage they can get. They may (or may not) be one of those WAAC type of players, but using tri-pointing by itself isn't proof of that. If they also used rules lawyering and tried to half-inch their models around the board then that's a different matter.
The second person is a moron of the highest order. They may also be a canny, tactical player. But unfortunately, still a moron.
This is just an extension to the idea of daisy chaining units in a way to try and ensure that the enemy isn't killed in one round of combat. I'm sure any player of a melee centric army has done this. I've had players spit feathers that it's not fluffy but you can explain almost anything away in a fluffy sense - in this case the Orks were too busy fighting each other to properly charge in. Admittedly I found it a lot harder to explain how the Painboy was able to heal the Boys from across the board
It definitely feels gamey, for sure. Of course, Hit and Run followed by annihilation is pretty gamey, too.
Niiru wrote: Not sure why the quotes, it seems like you're implying I'm contradicting myself somehow, except that I didn't at all.
If someone (lets call him person A) used tri-pointing against me, I wouldn't complain. It's allowed by the rules, it's totally fair play. Good for them.
If, however, someone (lets call him Person B) tried to justify it by saying "see, this is how armies in the real world would work as well", I would likely laugh in their face at their stupidity.
The first person is a canny, tactical player, using every advantage they can get. They may (or may not) be one of those WAAC type of players, but using tri-pointing by itself isn't proof of that. If they also used rules lawyering and tried to half-inch their models around the board then that's a different matter.
The second person is a moron of the highest order. They may also be a canny, tactical player. But unfortunately, still a moron.
It's all good Niiru I was being tongue in cheek, just pointing out you have no issue with tripointing but also call it cheese, which sounds like you have an issue with it.
But, to your new point, of trying to defend and explain it in a fluffy manner, I agree, is not really necessary. If I had it my way, all that conversation would be relegated to the Lore part of these forums, and people here... in the tactics thread... could be free to discuss tactics without having to defend them to players who refuse to use them.
Anyone else wondering if the codex will have the same points for Nobs that Kill Team does? I think its 10 pts per model? On the other hand that is a Boyz nob, with 6+ save.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Anyone else wondering if the codex will have the same points for Nobs that Kill Team does? I think its 10 pts per model? On the other hand that is a Boyz nob, with 6+ save.
Since special weapons are dang near free in KT I wouldn't read too much into the points, it is a different system after all.. And also, as you noted it's a Boyz nob so him costing 10 points would actually be a nerf since he's currently 6 points, the price of a boy (rumoured to become 7)
So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
Not sure what the pricing is in real money yet, but it would be nice if the new bikers were decent models, as they may then be put on ebay cheap like starter box models.
Same with buggies too, but not everyone has bikes. I only own one, because the old bikes were very pricey for what they were.
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
I'm in the same position as you with this box and I don't think we'll know the answer until we see the price of the individual buggy kits. My gut is telling me that for those of us that don't want the extra bikes it may not be worthwhile but I definitely want it to be.
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
Not sure what the pricing is in real money yet, but it would be nice if the new bikers were decent models, as they may then be put on ebay cheap like starter box models.
Same with buggies too, but not everyone has bikes. I only own one, because the old bikes were very pricey for what they were.
Alas no new bikers. So the box is useful basically only if you want all models. If you aren\t sure yet best bet is to wait one week for the codex to come out and see if you want the bikes or even the buggies themselves(if you want to be sure they are useful in game).
And then time for small battle report. The 2xwarboss, 2xkff mek, 2xda jump weirdboy, painboy, 3x30 boyz, 2x30+25 stormboyz, 5 bikes and 3x10 grot list organized into 2 battallions and fast attack detachment for 14CP went against dark angels. Not worst kind of shooting hell but still couple HQ's including that very annoying dark angel librarian, couple scout squads, 2 tactical squads(one in razorback), 10 devastators with plasma's, 2 dreadnoughts, 2 predators of mucha dakka and some bikes with plasma.
I put up stormboyz dead center covered by KFF's and 2 by painboy. 2 boyz mob and weirdboys went to my left, one boyz unit to right. He had tactical+scout+dreadnought+razorback gunfort on my left, predators, dreadnought, techmarine section in center along with rhino, to their right predator, devastators and bikes.
He got first turn, I failed to seize so kicked in the new strategem mainly to protect my boyz on left. We were playing deadlock scenario. He started moving stuff into range and -1 hit'ed my goff mob(30 choppas). Shooting was surprisingly light. I had decent luck with saves(at one point 4 saves, 5 bounce to KFF, 1 to painboy) and he was rolling ridiculous number of 1's(like half) and muttering "why did I not bring master. Need to change list to have master" only in mid my turn 1 say "I don't have master because I don't NEED it. I'm dark angel") but my leftmost unit of evil sunz(10 shootas, rest choppas) were taking some hits. He moved rhino dead center to take one objective and scored total of 2 or 3 points.
My turn 1. I got crappy 6 cards with only score 3 objectives doable. Witch hunter not feasible now, nor is kingslayer(that librarian) and while I could theoretically control 5 objectives the one in his firebase is just not possible. Even if I da jump and charge into -2 terrain and wipe front row and consolidiate 3" I STILL would not get to the objective. Bah. Anyway his rhino was dead center so one stormboyz unit moved fast forward charging it. His tac squad of 5 marines had jumped out of razorback or rhino and had moved forward bit too much and helped by high advance roll and high charge roll I baaaaarely made the charge. On right dark angel bikes had came out so third stormboyz unit charged there after bikes had shot 3 wounds in. Annoyingly this killed the closest so bikes failed to charge. Da jump meanwhile had moved evil sunz from left front of his scouts. This was mistake as -2" to charge range meant all I did was kill 2 scouts by shooting. Should have went right behind his bikes and try charging predator instead and get objective 4 under my control in case he draws it if I make the charge.
In combat dark angel bikes lose more guys leaving 2. Rhino suffers 5 wounds and I had him wrapped up good. Still no first blood but 5 tacticals he REALLY shouldn't have brought that far close(no point) were wiped out.
His T2. Mostly stayed put. Bikes retreated and used strategem to shoot. Stormboyz vs rhino got -1 to hit. Shooting stormboyz that had charged bikes took huge casualties leaving like 3 left. Also stormboyz that had killed tacticals took heavy casualties and were wiped off the board. On left boyz suffer light casualties. Assault dreads fail charge vs stormboyz vs rhino needing 8"(haha) but techmarine got(needing 10) and also giving him thus victory point from card(charge bigger PL squad). This meant I could not clear that unit on his turn as 5 stormboyz vs 4 wound 2+ save techmarine failed. To make matters worse rhino was reduced to 1 wound. I did not WANT that now...
My T2. I got 2 secure objectives I could archieve. Sigh. Evil sunz on left prepare to charge scouts. Goff were da jumped into center to charge dreadnought but failed the charge. On right 3 stormboyz tried to charge predator. 2 died to stand and shoot, nob was sliced by lietnaunt that heroic intervened. My warbikes meanwhile charged and killed dark angel bikes. Evil sunz on left charged scouts and tagged tac squad by pile in. Here I got careless and did not declare librarian into charge target and position nob that heroic intervene would force him to contact nob if he does so I overkilled 1 scout squad, killed couple from other and lost whole bunch of guys. Warlord with kill choppa charged into the techmarine and failed to kill it. DARN! And obviously 60 or so attacks finished the 1 wound rhino which didn't even have decency to blow up to kill that techmarine and score me assasinate.
Turn 3, DA. Not surprisingly techmarine ran away leaving stormboyz to shooting so heavy casualties there though at least I had KFF back on this time. My bikes were shot out by predator no trouble. Dreadnought with fist dealt with my warlord without effort piling into stormboyz. On left all the PISTOLS cleared up my boyz from the combat. BTW could units that had not yet shot shoot as they weren't in combat anymore?
Turn 3, orks. Not much I could do. I could take defend 2 and that's about it unless I can kill his psyker which is witch hunt+assasinate+slay the warlord so goffs went and tried but -1 to hit relic meant only 2 wounds. Painboy charged dreadnought and got splattered for his efforts. Evil sunz on my right charged to his devastators wiping and tagging into his predator and dreadnought.
Turn 4, DA. We were running short of time. He blew out tons of stuff but biggest reason not much happened was that my army was already in tatters. Biggest things I had left were bunch of characters but here 8th ed lousy rules showed their worst. He could not shoot any of them, despite being over 12"+ from nearest friends in total sight but something, often in combat out of LOS, was bit closer. Totally silly and stupid but as such oh so typical. I can understand what they want to archieve out of LOS still preventing(no stupid gamey rhino sniping) but still would be plenty of ways to make it bit more logical like need to have something close enough to character like 6" or even 12" to gain protection. Ah well.
He finished off goffs and I said let's not worry about the dreadnought vs my 30 evil sunz. I'm not really taking it down, it's not going to affect and it takes tiiiiiime.
Turn 4, orks. I just checked my objectives, got utter trash and warboss with claw went and sliced techmarine for assasinate. We then agreed he could roll for run to get scouts to objective he had and he got. End result was 10-7 for him and huge rush for me to get in time for train with whopping 3 minutes to spare.
Army. Boyz were the usual look pretty, get blown off before doing anything. Stormboyz actually got into combat so at least got to roll some dice. Bikes as trash as expected but that I knew from the get-go but we had agreed for non-tuned up lists so I took those for first outing in 8th(I think). For some bizzare reason he was actually worried. No need. ~220 models isn't anything to write about home in terms of survivability so even with lousy 1st turn(helped by him forgetting his own rules) being blown up was foregone conclusion and didn't even get help with maelstrom cards. I would have needed T1 to have any sort of real pressure though as his bikes and tacticals moved waaaaaay too forward giving me T1 charges I shouldn't have got(rhino was more justifiable due to objective scoring and if rhino can survive 2 rounds, not too bad odds, I would not even really be protected from shooting).
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
I'm in the same position as you with this box and I don't think we'll know the answer until we see the price of the individual buggy kits. My gut is telling me that for those of us that don't want the extra bikes it may not be worthwhile but I definitely want it to be.
I'm not interested in the bikes or terrain, and in Australia the set will cost $250 (135 pounds).
Sadly it'll be a No Purchase from me. I'll be waiting for the inevitable and better individual kits released later, see Armigers..
gungo wrote: As said before this is a benefit to trukk boys and dread mobs. greentides probably didn’t need the boost. However it’s hard to tell if this faq does anything for us since they purposefully didn’t touch anything ork related this faq.
When the Ork codex is released in November we'll get a FAQ for that a month later.
October.-
Isn't looking like it tneva.
How? WD showed first half is not orks. Gee. WD telling us orks are not first half means obviously second half(which WD of that month never touches) is not either...
We'll be getting it in November, as Speed Freeks is available 27th oct.
if we're really lucky we'll be seeing it mid november because we're still in the waiting room for the other buggies (and warboss trike) to be released too.
I'm with tneva on waiting for the codex. I don't have any bikes or buggies, but I'm not really a big fan of the Speed Freaks as a game. It's the Warboss trike that I'm interested in, and it doesn't come in the box
Sadly it'll be a No Purchase from me. I'll be waiting for the inevitable and better individual kits released later, see Armigers..
Certainiy cheaper if you don't need bikes but what you mean better? Kits will be same.
We'll be getting it in November, as Speed Freeks is available 27th oct.
if we're really lucky we'll be seeing it mid november because we're still in the waiting room for the other buggies (and warboss trike) to be released too.
Codex comes preorder on 27th by look of it so that's october release
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
I'm in the same position as you with this box and I don't think we'll know the answer until we see the price of the individual buggy kits. My gut is telling me that for those of us that don't want the extra bikes it may not be worthwhile but I definitely want it to be.
I’m with you. I guess I was fishing for people to convince me to buy it especially since the shokkjuml dragsta and the other exclusive kit in box look decent from the leaked rules problem is bikers probably won’t be great this edition and I don’t need 15+ zhardsnark.. if those buggies are $50 maybe it’s worth it, but I don’t think this box set is a great deal unless you want bikers.
Guess I’ll hold off buy the trike, scramjet, codex, maybe new Mek shop terrain. I don’t think the squig buggy sounds great.
gungo wrote: I’m with you. I guess I was fishing for people to convince me to buy it especially since the shokkjuml dragsta and the other exclusive kit in box look decent from the leaked rules problem is bikers probably won’t be great this edition and I don’t need 15+ zhardsnark.. if those buggies are $50 maybe it’s worth it, but I don’t think this box set is a great deal unless you want bikers.
Guess I’ll hold off buy the trike, scramjet, codex, maybe new Mek shop terrain. I don’t think the squig buggy sounds great.
Discount boxes rarely are good deal unless you want all of them. Generally you get discounted something so if you dont' want something might just as well get individually.
Dunno what I get. I'll wait for codex for sure though. I have 6 bikes so unless they get sufficient beeffing up don't feel like getting more of them. And so far codex leaks has been not that positive. From "2 of every buggy and more boyz" to "maybe nothing but codex".
I'm going to pass on SpeedFreeks. If the (SF exclusive) buggies (or even bikers) turn out to be totally OP awesomesauce in the Codex I might reconsider.
I don't have the time to start any new games atm so the actual SF game is basically of zero value to me.
meh, even at Australia-tax price, I'm still gonna grab a box (should be able to get 10% off from my local anyway, which'll help a bit I guess)...I want to try out the game...I want both the buggies, if only to paint, possibility of them being decent on the table would be a bonus...I want the scrap terrain bits...and I could use some more bikers
'course, building a competitive list isn't exactly my top priority, not by a longshot...I'm mostly about the painting/building/collecting...
DoomMouse wrote: Those rules look a bit meh for the boosta-blasta. Too fragile and not enough damage output for presumably around 120 points going by power level...
Plus its jump rule only unreliably kicks in if you advance, so will have pretty bad shooting on any turn it jumps.
Keep in mind its speed freeks clan. might be somthing letting it fire normally after advancing when we find out the real klan rules. Might be usefull to have a chance at a couple of these betastriking.
The burna exhaust weapon only being D3 hits really makes me worried normal burnas aren't going to be D6 hits like I was hoping.
I actually think it may be evidence that it has. as the exhaust has the same stats as the old burnas. Meaning perhaps a purpose made flame weapon might need to be better in comparison.
they dont often have items in codecies with exact same stats but different names.
DoomMouse wrote: Those rules look a bit meh for the boosta-blasta. Too fragile and not enough damage output for presumably around 120 points going by power level...
Plus its jump rule only unreliably kicks in if you advance, so will have pretty bad shooting on any turn it jumps.
4+ to hit prettv bad now?
Anyway answer is don't advance. With 38" threat range you rarely need it and often are better off without it.
Or take it in evil sun det if you so want to advance and shoot rather than reroll 1's.
DoomMouse wrote: Those rules look a bit meh for the boosta-blasta. Too fragile and not enough damage output for presumably around 120 points going by power level...
Plus its jump rule only unreliably kicks in if you advance, so will have pretty bad shooting on any turn it jumps.
4+ to hit prettv bad now?
Anyway answer is don't advance. With 38" threat range you rarely need it and often are better off without it.
Or take it in evil sun det if you so want to advance and shoot rather than reroll 1's.
Unfortunately the grot gunner ability only applies to the grot blasta profile. So the rivet kannon is still on 5+ I believe.. It does have dakkadakkadakka though, so stastically speaking you're gettin 7 shots with that thing
Edit: Nevermind, I mistook what you just said. Thought you meant the KBB hit on 4's
The burna exhaust weapon only being D3 hits really makes me worried normal burnas aren't going to be D6 hits like I was hoping.
I actually think it may be evidence that it has. as the exhaust has the same stats as the old burnas. Meaning perhaps a purpose made flame weapon might need to be better in comparison.
they dont often have items in codecies with exact same stats but different names.
I think they just renamed it to seperate the Burna's CC profile from the shooting only Burna Exhaust's weapon the Kustom Boosta Blastas have.
On a seperate note, we have seen our anti vehicle buggy, and our anti infantry buggy. I'm really hoping they didn't inbetweener the other two buggies we have not seen yet. (But still excited to see more of these fun looking rules).
gungo wrote: So what’s your guys thoughts on the speed freak game as purchase just for models. I won’t play the game however at 150 (127.50$ discounted and free shipping). I’m realistically looking at 2 buggies and some scatter Terrain from this box. I already have 9x GW bikers and zhardsnark. So 6x more may be overkill if bikers suck again as most bikers do in 8th.
Is it worth it or should I wait till the buggies are repackaged.
I'm in the same position as you with this box and I don't think we'll know the answer until we see the price of the individual buggy kits. My gut is telling me that for those of us that don't want the extra bikes it may not be worthwhile but I definitely want it to be.
You're real best bet, is to preorder but not open. Then you can check the rules from the codex without worry about whether things suck or not. Their return policy is good enough to where as long as you haven't opened it with the receipt you should be able to get your money back and at the same time you ran no risk of them selling out of copies.
Some more info on the vehicles. Only weapon profiles really, no vehicle stats, but some interesting things.
One of the vehicles has a S3 grot blasta and another has a S4 grot blasta.
I hope this heralds a new era in Bespoke Rules tm where the names of the weapons have no bearing on the stats and are just what the models on the datasheet call the weapons.
I’m hoping ork flyers are tagged speed freaks...
Becuase I think dakkajets are going to excel especially if they are badmoons with reroll 1s and exploding 6s.
gungo wrote: I’m hoping ork flyers are tagged speed freaks...
Becuase I think dakkajets are going to excel especially if they are badmoons with reroll 1s and exploding 6s.
Why would they need the speed freeks tag? It seems to be just something they made up for the board game, which it seems is only going to be used for a stratagem (maybe there's a couple of stratagems). The stratagem gives -1 to hit, which flyers already get, so they almost certainly won't bother changing the dakkajet.
Dakkajets can reroll 1's and explode 6's as it is, and they already get a permanent (no CP use) -1 to hit, so adding a useless keyword to them seems well.. useless. Unless there's been more added to that keyword that hasn't been announced yet.
But the keyword is for the board game units, and the dakkajet isn't one.
gungo wrote: I’m hoping ork flyers are tagged speed freaks...
Becuase I think dakkajets are going to excel especially if they are badmoons with reroll 1s and exploding 6s.
Why would they need the speed freeks tag? It seems to be just something they made up for the board game, which it seems is only going to be used for a stratagem (maybe there's a couple of stratagems). The stratagem gives -1 to hit, which flyers already get, so they almost certainly won't bother changing the dakkajet.
Dakkajets can reroll 1's and explode 6's as it is, and they already get a permanent (no CP use) -1 to hit, so adding a useless keyword to them seems well.. useless. Unless there's been more added to that keyword that hasn't been announced yet.
But the keyword is for the board game units, and the dakkajet isn't one.
A second -1 to hit would be quite nice, unless playing against those dang ORKS that always hit on 6s...
the speed freeks keyword doesn't really have anything to do with the new standalone game...aside from all the vehicles usable in that game having the keyword...deffkoptas also have the keyword, and I don't think they're in the speed freeks game?
"Speed Freeks is a new keyword in Codex: Orks shared by all the new Ork vehicles and other Orks who feel the call of the Speedwaaagh!, like Deffkoptas and Warbikers. In the lore, Orks have always been known for their love of speed, and this keyword lets you represent that with special rules and Stratagems designed just for you. Take Billowing Exhaust Clouds – a great give one of your new Ork vehicles a nifty durability boost"
ork flyers might not get it, but then, they are ork vehicles, who do like to go fast, so they could fit the description...I dunno, wait and see I guess.
There are several strategems just for speed freaks... this has nothing to do with the standalone game...
Also -2 to hit is significantly better then -1....making your dakkajets much tankier...
Shokkjump Dragsta with bad moonz klan traits and DDD hits 1.87 of its two shokk rifle shots. Now that's d'ed accurate. Rokkit has a little under a 50/50 chance to hit. Against T7 Sv3+ that's 3 to 4 damage, and probably 3 against T8 Sv3+ too. 120 points worth of tank bustas at their current price get 4.88 hits, which translates to about 2 unsaved wounds or 6 damage vs T7 Sv3+ and 1.6 unsaved wounds against T8 Sv 3+ for 3-6 damage with a decent chance for 6. So, more damage, but the tank bustas will probably need a ride. I would say two dragstas is probably a solid side-grade to 10 tankbustas in a trukk, with the tankbustas doing more damage while the dragstas are a little more durable (16 T6 4+wounds as opposed to 10 with some squishy boyz inside) and a little more maneuverable (extra 2" move with chance to teleport).
So with the leaks that just came out it looks like we get som awesome buffs for speed freaks from clan trait and the exhaust cloud is back as a strategem the gives us -1. So glad I kept my winning Zhadsnark led biker army from 7th ed.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So with the leaks that just came out it looks like we get som awesome buffs for speed freaks from clan trait and the exhaust cloud is back as a strategem the gives us -1. So glad I kept my winning Zhadsnark led biker army from 7th ed.
And that might stack with the one buggies' natural -1 to hit to give it an overall -2 to hit.
The billowing exhaust clouds (-1 stratagem) is much better if you're bringing 1 vehicle, or have 1 left that is in threat range. You must use it at the beginning of your movement phase. So you can't just react to their firing.
On the plus side, it lasts for opponents shooting and combat phase.
IMO this is significantly worse than rotate ion shields or lightning fast reactions, since they both activate when the unit is targeted, making it always effective.
Some more info on the vehicles. Only weapon profiles really, no vehicle stats, but some interesting things.
One of the vehicles has a S3 grot blasta and another has a S4 grot blasta.
I hope this heralds a new era in Bespoke Rules tm where the names of the weapons have no bearing on the stats and are just what the models on the datasheet call the weapons.
The new tyranid weapons page would look like
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
S4 AP- D1
GKAAAAAAKGHHHHH
D3 shots S7 AP-1 D2
Why on earth you hope for that nightmare?
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hollow one wrote: The billowing exhaust clouds (-1 stratagem) is much better if you're bringing 1 vehicle, or have 1 left that is in threat range. You must use it at the beginning of your movement phase. So you can't just react to their firing.
On the plus side, it lasts for opponents shooting and combat phase.
IMO this is significantly worse than rotate ion shields or lightning fast reactions, since they both activate when the unit is targeted, making it always effective.
And even RIS isn't that usefull with multi knight army. And ork vehicles are rarely deathstar "1 in the army" type...
Best usage for strategem is likely not a vehicle but unit of 12 bikes. Strategems works best on deathstar builds and 1 vehicle is rarely deathstar for orks. For worthwhile vehicle you would need like loaded up battlewagon.
vindicare0412 wrote: What will be too bad is they likely wont FAQ the old buggies or Nob Bikers to be Speed Freaks. :(
According to the french leaker, Nob Bikers are in the codex, but they suck.
For your old buggies, I'd just base them and add bits to them (or not) to make them count as scrapjets or snazzwagons, depending on whether you have the rokkit or shoota version.
vindicare0412 wrote: What will be too bad is they likely wont FAQ the old buggies or Nob Bikers to be Speed Freaks. :(
According to the french leaker, Nob Bikers are in the codex, but they suck.
For your old buggies, I'd just base them and add bits to them (or not) to make them count as scrapjets or snazzwagons, depending on whether you have the rokkit or shoota version.
I swear Nob Bikers are paying the price for being amazing in 5th.
I controverted my old buggies from AOBR Deffkoptas so IDK where I am going to start if i want to convert them again
Jidmah wrote: You'll probably only need it during the first or second turn anyways.
A single mob of warbikers or 5 koptas protected by it could be decent, assuming the units themselves are properly costed.
If we are lucky we can use it to protect a trukk that's carrying a unit of tankbustas or Thrakka.
Or battlewagon. Battlewagon loaded up with good h2h infantry(so nobs or meganobz if they get sufficient boost though french say no for meganobz) could be pretty evil.
is pretty...empty.
"you can build a Speed Freek army! All the models are great!" No kidding.
Yeah, it was a bit of a non-event. BUT! It does show cost reductions (in power level, but still...) for some key units. I'm excited by the 3PL drop for the Morkanaut, and the 2 PL drop for trukks. Hopefully that will translate to a decent point drop too? Maybe?
Im thinking of running a unit of the 3 Shokkjump Dragsta. The amount of output on the overcharged plasma alone can help put the hurt on vehicle heavy lists.
TedNugent wrote: I mean, it's fine, it's just underwhelming after yesterday's article.
I want to see some clan rules straight from the horse's mouth, or some new codex information.
Yeah, but all that is going to start next week (or maybe Sunday) to lead you to the codex release. I'm actually surprised we got as much as we did on the vehicles that are not in the speed freeks box in wednesdays article
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
Bikes for all armies are hurting this edition. Outside of a few special cases like shining spears.
The issue being that for orks they were kinda expensive and you couldn’t deploy them in any numbers which is our strong point
And the fact 2 wound models are at a slight disadvantage
Saying that the data sheet was leaked bikers are basically the same as the index except they are PL 4 instead of 5 suggesting a minor points drop
To answer your question I doubt it will change but in this edition MSU isn’t really an ork tactic our units do best in max size units to make the most use of auras and strategems. Be it stormboys or basic boys or bikers they all are more efficient as large groups. But we will find out more shortly.
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
My experience with bikes is that they simply get gunned down or torn apart by units that cost a lot less than them. D2 weapons just add insult to injury. Due to rule of 3 and the weak PK (compared to previous editions) MSU isn't really an option anymore.
If you really, really want to field warbikers, a full strength unit is probably the best way to go, with some other things like tankbustas in trukks to distract fire from them. Expect to be blown off the board by turn 3 though.
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
My experience with bikes is that they simply get gunned down or torn apart by units that cost a lot less than them. D2 weapons just add insult to injury. Due to rule of 3 and the weak PK (compared to previous editions) MSU isn't really an option anymore.
If you really, really want to field warbikers, a full strength unit is probably the best way to go, with some other things like tankbustas in trukks to distract fire from them. Expect to be blown off the board by turn 3 though.
I had a group of 6 warbikers getting shot by a hemlock once. The hemlock rolled 6 shots on the 2d3's..Now, the hemlock didn't technically wipe the unit since a nob on warbike has 3 wounds but damn that hurt all the way into my soul. Since then I've tried smaller squads to middling success
There is a chance bikes might be decent this edition.
They are our 4+ save unit. So it depends on if we can stack multiple -1 to hit and fnp, extra cover saves.
Jidmah wrote: Without objective secured, they are not going to grab any objectives.
Yeah, with low numbers that aren't enough to contest, lack of Obsec, and not having any real AP weapons for a lot of units that are going to be hunkering down in cover makes them iffy harassment units at best. Hopefully there'll be something in the new codex that gives them a little more oomph for their cost.
is pretty...empty.
"you can build a Speed Freek army! All the models are great!" No kidding.
Yeah, it was a bit of a non-event. BUT! It does show cost reductions (in power level, but still...) for some key units. I'm excited by the 3PL drop for the Morkanaut, and the 2 PL drop for trukks. Hopefully that will translate to a decent point drop too? Maybe?
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
I run at least 9 bikes and Zhadsnark every game. The bikes perform much better than people on here would have you believe. They aren't the most efficient point for point and there are problems when enemies like to hide on terrain, but they have a place I think. I've used them to chase down slower targets and their shooting output is surprisingly strong (now they hit targets with -2 to hit). They're fast so can get to objectives that are otherwise unreachable.
Don't believe all the negativity around them. There are better choices, but they aren't an auto-lose.
How solid should we consider the rumours surrounding the clan traits to be?
I've themed my smallish force around Blood Axes and the 'always in cover' trait actually sounds quite useful.
4+ Kommandos, 1+ Meganobz, 3+ nobs etc...
Be even more interesting if it affected vehicles, which it probably wont.
Although 2+ Kans would be pretty funny, even if the large amount of high ap out there means it's not to be relied upon.
But I suppose it all depends on the codex and it's prices.
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
I LOVE WARBIKES!!!! But this edition they are terrible, Englishman is right though, they aren't as bad as everyone seems to believe. You sure as hell shouldn't bring them to a tournament but the same can be said about basically everything in our codex that isn't boyz. Warbikes are surprisingly fragile this edition due to the plethora of D2 weapons with -1 and -2 AP which turns our vaunted 4+ save into crap. The guns do decent work but damn are they inefficient and short ranged, but if you take a unit of 10 you are killing about 4-5 Marines a turn and that isn't terrible.....except for the cost of those bikes that is. They are hopeless in CC though, even a unit of 10 only gets 30 S4 attacks, that is 20 hits and 10 wounds against T4. The PK is probably the biggest issue facing Orkz this edition, every edition previously we used those as multi-purpose ass kickers. Capable of killing vehicles and elite infantry with ease. I NEVER left a unit without a Nob with PK unless I absolutely couldn't afford it. This edition? My painboy gets one because he is required to and my Warboss because he still hits on 3s with it and its not terrible for him....but even then I usually take the Relic BC instead Overall they are still fun for friendly games but can't face off against good units. As for how to take them? I usually run them in units of 5 or if I feel like going nuts i'll take 3 units of 10-12 and just swamp the board in over priced bikes.
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody been running bikes this edition? Do you want msu or full squads? Does the nob get a klaw?
I LOVE WARBIKES!!!! But this edition they are terrible, Englishman is right though, they aren't as bad as everyone seems to believe. You sure as hell shouldn't bring them to a tournament but the same can be said about basically everything in our codex that isn't boyz. Warbikes are surprisingly fragile this edition due to the plethora of D2 weapons with -1 and -2 AP which turns our vaunted 4+ save into crap. The guns do decent work but damn are they inefficient and short ranged, but if you take a unit of 10 you are killing about 4-5 Marines a turn and that isn't terrible.....except for the cost of those bikes that is. They are hopeless in CC though, even a unit of 10 only gets 30 S4 attacks, that is 20 hits and 10 wounds against T4. The PK is probably the biggest issue facing Orkz this edition, every edition previously we used those as multi-purpose ass kickers. Capable of killing vehicles and elite infantry with ease. I NEVER left a unit without a Nob with PK unless I absolutely couldn't afford it. This edition? My painboy gets one because he is required to and my Warboss because he still hits on 3s with it and its not terrible for him....but even then I usually take the Relic BC instead Overall they are still fun for friendly games but can't face off against good units. As for how to take them? I usually run them in units of 5 or if I feel like going nuts i'll take 3 units of 10-12 and just swamp the board in over priced bikes.
Thanks for the input Semper/Englishmen and others. Like many others I'll be getting a Speed Freak boxed set next week and I wanted to entertain the idea of running a speedwaaagh with bike unit on the field. I'll likely start running one of each buggy, one of each plane, a bike squad, and some tankbusta trukkz until I figure out what is good in our dex or not.
Just played in a tournament yesterday, my last games with the index. 22 or 24 players and I landed in 6th place.
Game 1 Nurgle daemons crushed me in 2 turns in game 1 we were asked to play at least 3 turns but there was no reason to play the next turn so I called it.
Game 2 we faced AM with cadians and steel legion and it was a very small army for AM with tanks transports and a super heavy tank. I crushed them it by the end of turn two. there was no reason to continue to turn 3 due to the AM not being able to recover in scored points or table me.
I had a unit of 10 boys reach the AM lines and kill the enemy warlord in close combat in one go. We also were "fed" Commissar Yarik...who was riding in a transport, which moved between 2 trukks. Each trukk carrying 10 boys with power Klaw nobs (10 models total in each trukk.) I disembarked both to form a ring and mobbed them up trapping the transport and leaving space fr my war boss to charge..... Yarik never made it out of the destroyed vehicle.
Ork victory.
Game 3 was against space wolves.
My bombas wiped out almost 500 points of Space wolves in their first movement phase.... My usual Scrumgrod was my opponent and he goes into full on mental melt down.
This game was harsh. By the end of the first turn, of course, all four of my flyers had been destroyed and sadly only 1 exploded this time. Due to my good luck I was able to shoots one of his characters to death from across the table. In fact the Orks shooting was fairly fantastic for the first two turns. The game ended on turn 3
Ork vistory
I had put out a hurting but also taken a small beating due to needing to get close and him having 12 Aggressors. Those guys have a lot of dakka.
I've been relearning close combat and all of that phase to become more effective and I did pull of a fairly strong charge but it was mostly meant to draw his models away from an objective and force his hand a bit. I had planed this to help me steal an objective from him. We had each 1 objective randomly decided on our table side and he planned to pick the one the far most away from my army I was planning to jump 10 tank busters over to steal it but failed to jump.
In the end Orks win by first blood and our time running out.
His army with all it's rerolls took a lot of time but we were both actively playing so I don't know.
Orks won so I guess that's enough this time.
It's frustrating some times, If I could play more often I would be a better player but 6th place is fine. haha I think I came in dead last the last tournament I played earlier in the year.
MY list was very small with only 9 drops and 10 in the last game. 3 mobs of 10 shoota boys in trukks 1 mob of 10 tank bustas in a chinork and 6 burna boys in another chinork, characters riding in, even a SAG Mek. and 2 weird boys riding in trukks with the boys. 2 Burna Bombas and 2 Blitza Bombas. Probably the smallest army I have pushed and way outside of my comfort zone. I almost think I should have traded the burnas out for more tank bustas because of all my units they did the absolute least. Other than being used as a shooting screen in my second game.
[quote=warhead01 727761 10197605 6d8b44ca9d0aebf9927a61dbdc28a49e.jpg. We also were "fed" Commissar Yarik...who was riding in a transport, which moved between 2 trukks. Each trukk carrying 10 boys with power Klaw nobs (10 models total in each trukk.) I disembarked both to form a ring and mobbed them up trapping the transport and leaving space fr my war boss to charge..... Yarik never made it out of the destroyed vehicle.
Ork victory.
Did he really put chimera so that you could form double circle? As one circle is almost impossible to prevent one model from setting up.
This game was harsh. By the end of the first turn, of course, all four of my flyers had been destroyed and sadly only 1 exploded this time. Due to my good luck I was able to shoots one of his characters to death from across the table. In fact the Orks shooting was fairly fantastic for the first two turns. The game ended on turn 3
tneva82 wrote: [quote=warhead01 727761 10197605 6d8b44ca9d0aebf9927a61dbdc28a49e.jpg. We also were "fed" Commissar Yarik...who was riding in a transport, which moved between 2 trukks. Each trukk carrying 10 boys with power Klaw nobs (10 models total in each trukk.) I disembarked both to form a ring and mobbed them up trapping the transport and leaving space fr my war boss to charge..... Yarik never made it out of the destroyed vehicle.
Ork victory.
Did he really put chimera so that you could form double circle? As one circle is almost impossible to prevent one model from setting up.
This game was harsh. By the end of the first turn, of course, all four of my flyers had been destroyed and sadly only 1 exploded this time. Due to my good luck I was able to shoots one of his characters to death from across the table. In fact the Orks shooting was fairly fantastic for the first two turns. The game ended on turn 3
Huh? Nothimg closer when you shoot across table?
I know... I saw it and couldn't believe he was doing it but I guess he never saw it coming. So I killed both 2 of his 3 characters in one turn and actually missed an opportunity to kill his 3rd and last character. But I don't play enough to stay good. He at first thought Yarik could stand back up on a 4+ with his special rule .....until it was explained that Yarik was simply slain. He was a good sport about it and saw the game was essentially over. I gave his marks for sportsmen ship. It's funny because he also plays orks off and on and I think he's got the green itch again after our game.
Also, yep. I had killed a path through the marines leaving a minor character as the closest and my Scrumgrod was trying his damnedest to measure to a model at an angle and on the parallel to that character but ...struggles with "geometry". 4 inches to the left adds up in length. as we learned. Bad luck for him. That guy was killed by a SAG Mek of all things.
I had a really good showing and really one one or two rules issues, in my first game but was just there to play and knew the first guy has a rep as a competitive type. Which blew my mind as his play with a large model count army full of large blobs is super sloppy. We didn't discuss the buildings on the table. It never occurred to me that they were not solid objects because they were clearly not ruins. so his models just went through them like they weren't there. At that point I said to myself . Oops. I guess that's just how it is this time around. He used it to avoid my flyers bases blocking his path of travel. which I was attempting to do to blunt his movement. The next was he wanted to measure my exploding flyers from the bases but I was sure the bases were only used for movement. but we didn't argue...I more or less teased him saying I thought he was wrong. and that actually warmed him up a bit as his cool kid persona melted away. how funny is that. And last was he daisy chained his blobs back to the characters giving all the buffs and pulled casualties leaving a large empty gap between that one guy and the rest of the model, got the buffs. Seems like a loop hole to me, no idea. He was back in coherency the next turn after falling back from combat and moving his other model up. It seemed very cheesy to me but I didn't get upset, I knew I'd made first turn mistakes and the loss was unavoidable. I didn't even kill a single unit. So many layers of saves on Nurgle Daemons.
Over all for a super nuncompetitive list I did very well.
Eonfuzz wrote: Is there any interest in a pre-release battlescribe Orks list that contains all the leaked information?
If anyone is keen I'll throw together the file and upload it here so you can munchkin away!
Not sure if anyone is that eager to run a prototype orks list, especially when there's been hardly any decent information leaked and the actual codex will be out next week.
The news releases will be out this week, which will come up with some actual updated units and stats, so that would be the first information that's worth updating on battlescribe... but by the time you do it, there will be more info to update, and so on and so forth.
Probably a waste of time tbh, but its your time to waste!
Need points to really be able to do any decent battlescribe..
You can start working in the files and just update them when we get the info though.
So it’s time for me to figure out my order.
I did a pass on speed freaks this week.
I’m getting the codex, the warboss on trike, the ork Mek shop and likely the kill team box which I haven’t picked up yet. For nyoje who picked it up is the box set worth it for the terrain?
I’m holding off on buggies TIL I figure out which doesn’t suck.
How about you get the codex and worry about anything else when you know:
A) what it costs
B) what it does
C) how it fits within a list, strategems, clan traits and other synergies.
The only thing I know I'm buying right now is a codex. Until I have that in hand and then make informed shopping decisions.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Shokkjump Dragsta:
on a 4+ Advance roll you remove the model and set it up anywhere more than 9" from enemy units
Am I the only one that wants to paint this thing like a Delorean, and scrawl "88MPH" on the side?
And possibly make a pair of flaming tracks to put down where the model used to be...
No, there are some people who made that connection. Including GW themselves. Apparently there is an actual flux capacitor model inside the buggy as a little easter egg. I love that, but I like my orks a little bit silly
BTW did I just realize that stompa might be even worse than I thought though not many might play it like technically it should be? Quoting from another thread(which I found by googling up):
Its:
9.5 " from the floor to horn tips
smoke stacks highest point at 11"
7" at the bases widest
20-22" around the stompas skirt/base
6" wide at shoulders
So how this matters? KFF needs to be fully within 9" to get inv save. Vehicles without base are measured from model rather than base. Thus wouldn't KFF need to cover entire stompa including up to air? Don't think I have seen anybody play it like that but don't see anything in rules which says you don't have to and if highest point is 11" you CAN'T cover stompa with mek outside. So only way to cover him would be board mek inside at which point can't cover other vehicles.
Am I only one who's been cheating unintentionantly? As if stompa needed this nerf :-/ Actually matters on saturday in the apoc where I was going to field stompa(1. Opted not to bring both as warlord titan will blow 2-3 a turn anyway but 1 is needed as I don't have 7k without stompas painted I think)
tneva82 wrote: BTW did I just realize that stompa might be even worse than I thought though not many might play it like technically it should be? Quoting from another thread(which I found by googling up):
Its:
9.5 " from the floor to horn tips
smoke stacks highest point at 11"
7" at the bases widest
20-22" around the stompas skirt/base
6" wide at shoulders
So how this matters? KFF needs to be fully within 9" to get inv save. Vehicles without base are measured from model rather than base. Thus wouldn't KFF need to cover entire stompa including up to air? Don't think I have seen anybody play it like that but don't see anything in rules which says you don't have to and if highest point is 11" you CAN'T cover stompa with mek outside. So only way to cover him would be board mek inside at which point can't cover other vehicles.
Am I only one who's been cheating unintentionantly? As if stompa needed this nerf :-/ Actually matters on saturday in the apoc where I was going to field stompa(1. Opted not to bring both as warlord titan will blow 2-3 a turn anyway but 1 is needed as I don't have 7k without stompas painted I think)
Maybe put a KFF mek inside it/them? I can get away with that as I have 5 of each. Not sure if it even matters or not now days.
As I understand it, "wholly within" just means that all models in the unit have to be within, not that they can't stick outside the bouble. So the stompa just needs to touch the KFF to be covered.
warhead01 wrote: Maybe put a KFF mek inside it/them? I can get away with that as I have 5 of each. Not sure if it even matters or not now days.
Yes putting mek inside will give. Of course that means stompa is only thing that expensive big mek protects. Ie nerf after all. If it was just horizontal you could easily fit gorkanaut or two within that bubble. Now you need at least 2 if not 3 bik mek's to cover those 3 models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tilds wrote: As I understand it, "wholly within" just means that all models in the unit have to be within, not that they can't stick outside the bouble. So the stompa just needs to touch the KFF to be covered.
All models in unit fully within. If part of model is outside 9" bubble that model is not covered. Question is does that mean UPSIDE as well as horizontal. Keeping battlewagons etc fully within can be surprisingly hard and if that one corner is out no 5++ for you...
Citation needed. I'm also pretty sure that a unit is "wholly within" if every single model of the unit is within 9". Which means, the distance from the KFF to the closest part of the base/model is no more than 9".
tneva82 wrote: BTW did I just realize that stompa might be even worse than I thought though not many might play it like technically it should be? Quoting from another thread(which I found by googling up):
Its:
9.5 " from the floor to horn tips
smoke stacks highest point at 11"
7" at the bases widest
20-22" around the stompas skirt/base
6" wide at shoulders
So how this matters? KFF needs to be fully within 9" to get inv save. Vehicles without base are measured from model rather than base. Thus wouldn't KFF need to cover entire stompa including up to air? Don't think I have seen anybody play it like that but don't see anything in rules which says you don't have to and if highest point is 11" you CAN'T cover stompa with mek outside. So only way to cover him would be board mek inside at which point can't cover other vehicles.
Am I only one who's been cheating unintentionantly? As if stompa needed this nerf :-/ Actually matters on saturday in the apoc where I was going to field stompa(1. Opted not to bring both as warlord titan will blow 2-3 a turn anyway but 1 is needed as I don't have 7k without stompas painted I think)
If my opponent forced me to measure like that in order to get (or rather, not get) a KFF save for a Stompa I'd verbally kick him/ her in da teef and pack up my models. Common sense > being a rules nazi. If the Stompa is wholly within 9" of a KFF source at ground level it gets a 5++, period.
Jidmah wrote: Citation needed. I'm also pretty sure that a unit is "wholly within" if every single model of the unit is within 9". Which means, the distance from the KFF to the closest part of the base/model is no more than 9".
If part of model i# not fully within then that i#n't fully within. Fully within means everything in unit needs to be fully within. And unit of 1 i# still unit. That too needs to be fully within. Model with toe inside bubble :s not fully within
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit is within.
Kustom Force Field: If this model is equipped with a kustom force field, friendly ORK units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons. If the Big Mek is embarked, the vehicle transporting it has a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons instead.
[img]Regarding wholly within. I think they changed rules for deployment zones to wholly within in one of the more recent updates. So i dont think it's reasonable to claim som3 models being within is good enough for the unit to be wholly within anymore...
Its in rulebook official update 1.3. On reference to deployment. If models could be partially within deployment zones that would be madness. In the picture its only for one scenario but there are similar erratas on the other missions too later in the document
I might be making this up, but I think the type of within GW uses to describe units counting as being in cover is entirely within. Meaning every model in the unit is at least partially on whatever is granting the cover. Wholly within I've always played as every single model has to be completely within
PiñaColada wrote: I might be making this up, but I think the type of within GW uses to describe units counting as being in cover is entirely within. Meaning every model in the unit is at least partially on whatever is granting the cover. Wholly within I've always played as every single model has to be completely within
Cover also has a clarification in the updates/faq that specifies models partially within qualifies. Language wise "wholly" and "entirely" are synonyms so I would not take them as separate in the GW rules.
Gitdakka wrote: [img]Regarding wholly within. I think they changed rules for deployment zones to wholly within in one of the more recent updates. So i dont think it's reasonable to claim som3 models being within is good enough for the unit to be wholly within anymore...
Its in rulebook official update 1.3. On reference to deployment. If models could be partially within deployment zones that would be madness. In the picture its only for one scenario but there are similar erratas on the other missions too later in the document
Setting up stuff within a deployment zone is not the same as measuring if something is within 9" of something. The FAQ I quoted is from the current rulebook FAQ and it clearly states that the every member of the unit only needs to be within 9" rather than wholly within 9".
PiñaColada wrote: I might be making this up, but I think the type of within GW uses to describe units counting as being in cover is entirely within. Meaning every model in the unit is at least partially on whatever is granting the cover. Wholly within I've always played as every single model has to be completely within
Cover also has a clarification in the updates/faq that specifies models partially within qualifies. Language wise "wholly" and "entirely" are synonyms so I would not take them as separate in the GW rules.
Yes, they are synonyms so logically speaking there should be no distinction. Yet, and this is just an example I found in 2 minutes, look at the Imperial Knights codex page. 101. The infamous sacristian forgeshrine. One of the blurbs state "INFANTRY units that are entirely on a Sector Mechanicus structure receive the bonus to their armour saves for being in cover (other units that are entirely on the structure only receive this bonus if at least 50% of every model is obscured from the point of view of the shooting unit)"
Entirely I don't think I've seen GW use that phrase except for describing cover and I really do think they believe there's a distinction between entirely and wholly.
From the new Goffs article:
"... With their ’Ere We Go ability enabling you to re-roll either one or both of the dice when making your charge roll, you stand a great chance of getting this deadly unit stuck in as soon as they arrive."
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Assuming Dreads can still be taken in squads, and that they're still less than 10 PL each... could be interesting. But if they don't get a buff to charge rolls, they'll end up just being a big target on the turn they deepstrike. A pretty nasty thing to have deepstrike behind someone's army though.
Dreads did used to get ''ere we go' though, which may have been buffed to allow you to choose one or both dice for the reroll, which might well be enough. That's if that wasn't a typo. If so... could be good, if dreads had their points fixed as well. Exciting stuff for sure.
Another option is a battlewagon filled with a unit of your choice, as long as it totals less than 20pl. Big old tellyporta drop.
Tankbustas might be another good option. No longer needing a Trukk tax to get them into range to actually do anything, you can just have them be the Ork equivalent of plasma Scions and have them drop in and destroy something whenever you with.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Thoughts? "Smash!"
I had a list of things that fit inside 20 PL in one of the rumor threads. Since they claim that 10 MANz fit inside 20 PL, it's safe bet that any unit that's not a stompa can use it.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Assuming Dreads can still be taken in squads, and that they're still less than 10 PL each... could be interesting. But if they don't get a buff to charge rolls, they'll end up just being a big target on the turn they deepstrike. A pretty nasty thing to have deepstrike behind someone's army though.
Dreads did used to get ''ere we go' though, which may have been buffed to allow you to choose one or both dice for the reroll, which might well be enough. That's if that wasn't a typo. If so... could be good, if dreads had their points fixed as well. Exciting stuff for sure.
Another option is a battlewagon filled with a unit of your choice, as long as it totals less than 20pl. Big old tellyporta drop.
Tankbustas might be another good option. No longer needing a Trukk tax to get them into range to actually do anything, you can just have them be the Ork equivalent of plasma Scions and have them drop in and destroy something whenever you with.
Certainly some options in there.
I don't think it matters what the power level of the unit inside the transport is, you simply select a transport less than 20PL and it can deepstrike, taking the unit inside with it.
I'm wondering about the Mega Nobs points drop.
Kinda thinking it would be cool to field 10 or 20 of them again. But looking for a way to stack the tellyporta with mob up on say 20 of them in total 10 on the table and 10 in the tellyporta. so the question is how do I get 10 mega nobs up the table and closer than 9 inches for an easy charge... Can you imagine...
warhead01 wrote: I'm wondering about the Mega Nobs points drop.
Kinda thinking it would be cool to field 10 or 20 of them again. But looking for a way to stack the tellyporta with mob up on say 20 of them in total 10 on the table and 10 in the tellyporta. so the question is how do I get 10 mega nobs up the table and closer than 9 inches for an easy charge... Can you imagine...
Or why not 2x10 on the table. Mob up. Warpath and da jump from wierdboys. Then profit?
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Assuming Dreads can still be taken in squads, and that they're still less than 10 PL each... could be interesting. But if they don't get a buff to charge rolls, they'll end up just being a big target on the turn they deepstrike. A pretty nasty thing to have deepstrike behind someone's army though.
Dreads did used to get ''ere we go' though, which may have been buffed to allow you to choose one or both dice for the reroll, which might well be enough. That's if that wasn't a typo. If so... could be good, if dreads had their points fixed as well. Exciting stuff for sure.
Another option is a battlewagon filled with a unit of your choice, as long as it totals less than 20pl. Big old tellyporta drop.
Tankbustas might be another good option. No longer needing a Trukk tax to get them into range to actually do anything, you can just have them be the Ork equivalent of plasma Scions and have them drop in and destroy something whenever you with.
Certainly some options in there.
I don't think it matters what the power level of the unit inside the transport is, you simply select a transport less than 20PL and it can deepstrike, taking the unit inside with it.
hmmmm...i can see this being faq'd very quickly. I suspect the rai is that the combined PL has to be under 20. The stratagem doesnt specify, it just says "an ORK unit".
Otherwise you could take a Battlewagon (11PL) carrying 10 MANZ (31PL) for a total of 41PL in the tellyporta.
HOWEVER
The article says that a full squad of 10 MANZ is now able to be tellyported. Which means that their full power level must be 20 (or less).
Which is a HUGE reduction in cost from the index. Like 35 points each, instead of 50 points each (if PL equated to points, which it doesn't but still).
warhead01 wrote: I'm wondering about the Mega Nobs points drop.
Kinda thinking it would be cool to field 10 or 20 of them again. But looking for a way to stack the tellyporta with mob up on say 20 of them in total 10 on the table and 10 in the tellyporta. so the question is how do I get 10 mega nobs up the table and closer than 9 inches for an easy charge... Can you imagine...
Or why not 2x10 on the table. Mob up. Warpath and da jump from wierdboys. Then profit?
Haha. Well, my only reason is so I can put half of them closer than 9 inches to enemy units of an easy charge distance..
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm assuming the Tellyporta tactic is still going to be limited to second turn drop?
Since it's a rule in the BRB and nothing in our rule says otherwise, yes, it's limited to turn two. Still, dropping in a squad of MANz or even a goddam Gorkanaut into your opponent's backfield is pretty damn powerful. It gives us an option that we lacked outside of kommandoes.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Assuming Dreads can still be taken in squads, and that they're still less than 10 PL each... could be interesting. But if they don't get a buff to charge rolls, they'll end up just being a big target on the turn they deepstrike. A pretty nasty thing to have deepstrike behind someone's army though.
Dreads did used to get ''ere we go' though, which may have been buffed to allow you to choose one or both dice for the reroll, which might well be enough. That's if that wasn't a typo. If so... could be good, if dreads had their points fixed as well. Exciting stuff for sure.
Another option is a battlewagon filled with a unit of your choice, as long as it totals less than 20pl. Big old tellyporta drop.
Tankbustas might be another good option. No longer needing a Trukk tax to get them into range to actually do anything, you can just have them be the Ork equivalent of plasma Scions and have them drop in and destroy something whenever you with.
Certainly some options in there.
I don't think it matters what the power level of the unit inside the transport is, you simply select a transport less than 20PL and it can deepstrike, taking the unit inside with it.
hmmmm...i can see this being faq'd very quickly. I suspect the rai is that the combined PL has to be under 20. The stratagem doesnt specify, it just says "an ORK unit".
Otherwise you could take a Battlewagon (11PL) carrying 10 MANZ (31PL) for a total of 41PL in the tellyporta.
HOWEVER
The article says that a full squad of 10 MANZ is now able to be tellyported. Which means that their full power level must be 20 (or less).
Which is a HUGE reduction in cost from the index. Like 35 points each, instead of 50 points each (if PL equated to points, which it doesn't but still).
It does specifically say if you use it on a transport, everything inside goes with it. That does seem a little OP though. Dropping a 'Naut with 3 manz inside would definitely give me pause.
What if you dropped 6 KMKs in good firing pattern instead of hoping for a good setup from your opponent as well as not worrying about them being shot off the board in turn 1?
So Kommando's have an built-in deepstrike rule right? Do people use a minimum squad just to grab an objective? I've mainly seen them discussed as a big speed bump for enemy armies.
You know, I've been doing some quick mathammer with our new buggies, and with the exception of the dragsta (and the scrapjet since we don't know all its guns yet)... they all kind of suck? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but each buggy is doing like one to three wounds on average firing all of their guns vs MEQ, not even bothering with TEQ.
Unless these come with some sort of stratagem that buffs the hell out of them, what are they supposed to do?
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok, new tellyporta stratagem with a unit of 2 Deff Dreads. Thoughts?
Assuming Dreads can still be taken in squads, and that they're still less than 10 PL each... could be interesting. But if they don't get a buff to charge rolls, they'll end up just being a big target on the turn they deepstrike. A pretty nasty thing to have deepstrike behind someone's army though.
Dreads did used to get ''ere we go' though, which may have been buffed to allow you to choose one or both dice for the reroll, which might well be enough. That's if that wasn't a typo. If so... could be good, if dreads had their points fixed as well. Exciting stuff for sure.
Another option is a battlewagon filled with a unit of your choice, as long as it totals less than 20pl. Big old tellyporta drop.
Tankbustas might be another good option. No longer needing a Trukk tax to get them into range to actually do anything, you can just have them be the Ork equivalent of plasma Scions and have them drop in and destroy something whenever you with.
Certainly some options in there.
I don't think it matters what the power level of the unit inside the transport is, you simply select a transport less than 20PL and it can deepstrike, taking the unit inside with it.
hmmmm...i can see this being faq'd very quickly. I suspect the rai is that the combined PL has to be under 20. The stratagem doesnt specify, it just says "an ORK unit".
Otherwise you could take a Battlewagon (11PL) carrying 10 MANZ (31PL) for a total of 41PL in the tellyporta.
HOWEVER
The article says that a full squad of 10 MANZ is now able to be tellyported. Which means that their full power level must be 20 (or less).
Which is a HUGE reduction in cost from the index. Like 35 points each, instead of 50 points each (if PL equated to points, which it doesn't but still).
It does specifically say if you use it on a transport, everything inside goes with it. That does seem a little OP though. Dropping a 'Naut with 3 manz inside would definitely give me pause.
What if you dropped 6 KMKs in good firing pattern instead of hoping for a good setup from your opponent as well as not worrying about them being shot off the board in turn 1?
Yes, it specifically says about transports being able to deepstrike with units inside, which is fine, but it doesn't really imply either way whether or not they intend the PL to be inflated to above 20.
Otherwise... is there even any transports that are over 20PL other than the Stompa? They could have just made the stratagem "can teleport any unit other than the stompa" and not bothered with a PL limit, especially as they seem to be dropping the maxed out MANZ squad to less than 20PL anyway.
Although, Gork/Mork are 18 and 19PL at the moment, so that would mean it would be difficult to put any units inside them to teleport. But then that would be a decent way to balance the stratagem, making it so that you could deepstrike a morkanaut but that means you can't transport a unit with it. SO you'd have to make a choice between teleport and transport.
HOWEVER
The stratagem isn't your usual Webway Strike 1/3 CP for 1-2 units.
Or the Daemon strat that is 1CP for less than 8PL and 2CP for more.
It's 2CP per unit, no matter the size. So it's a bit rubbish for cheaper units, but great for the big expensive ones.
So it does seem like it's designed for things like trukks full of nobz, or wagons. I'm just not sure if a wagon filled with MANZ is pushing things a bit. Would be fun though.
Although, Gork/Mork are 18 and 19PL at the moment, so that would mean it would be difficult to put any units inside them to teleport. But then that would be a decent way to balance the stratagem, making it so that you could deepstrike a morkanaut but that means you can't transport a unit with it. SO you'd have to make a choice between teleport and transport.
Morkanaut actually got lowered to 15 PL including the KFF so there's still plenty you can stuff in there.
It's sounding like Orks are gonna be a sort of Shenaniganz Maneuverability army- at least Evil Sunz lists are. Not the toughest, not the most damaging, but able to hop from one side of the board to the other unpredictably.
The forgeworld gargantuan squiggoth is also above 20PL (21pl) and a transport....
The 20PL is specific and seems to be done to prevent those 2 units. (And kustom stompa; so technically 3 units)
Vitali Advenil wrote: You know, I've been doing some quick mathammer with our new buggies, and with the exception of the dragsta (and the scrapjet since we don't know all its guns yet)... they all kind of suck? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but each buggy is doing like one to three wounds on average firing all of their guns vs MEQ, not even bothering with TEQ.
Unless these come with some sort of stratagem that buffs the hell out of them, what are they supposed to do?
The shokkjump definitely seems to be more anti-vehicle rather than anti-MEQ, although it might be good for hitting/killing stuff like Inceptors or Nid warriors. With the jump it may be able to close with backfield artillery too. Other than that though, you may have a good point.
gungo wrote: The forgeworld gargantuan squiggoth is also above 20PL (21pl) and a transport....
The 20PL is specific and seems to be done to prevent those 2 units. (And kustom stompa; so technically 3 units)
It also prevents 3 deff dreads, unless their PL drops below 7.
Actually, this is a future proof blocker for super-heavies, if FW ever gets around to making new ork kits.
Gitdakka wrote: [img]Regarding wholly within. I think they changed rules for deployment zones to wholly within in one of the more recent updates. So i dont think it's reasonable to claim som3 models being within is good enough for the unit to be wholly within anymore...
Its in rulebook official update 1.3. On reference to deployment. If models could be partially within deployment zones that would be madness. In the picture its only for one scenario but there are similar erratas on the other missions too later in the document
Setting up stuff within a deployment zone is not the same as measuring if something is within 9" of something. The FAQ I quoted is from the current rulebook FAQ and it clearly states that the every member of the unit only needs to be within 9" rather than wholly within 9".
If even part of your unit is outside 9", even if that's part of base or part of vehicle in case of unit of 1, that's no KFF bonus for you. Of course flip side to this thing is that stompa has shooting point 11" upside so will shoot even past knight height LOS blocking.
Thought of a combo that could be great for Goffs. Mob up twomobs to make a 40boys squad. Skarboyz strat for S5 da jump them and Telly port Ghaz near them to buff with additional attack. 150 S5 attacks will hurt a lot.
Back to that tellyporta. I'm thinking of another way to help it.
So one issue we will have, as usual, is screens. I'm thinking to jump 40 boys turn one to form a large ring so that on turn two my tellyporta unit can land in that ring. I haven't put very much into thinking about this just yet. But it could be key against another large model count army. stack that with other small fast units flooding he enemy fire control encouraging them to make, hopefully, the wrong choices. I guess my next thought on this is could I do this with 40 grots instead of 40 boys.
Gitdakka wrote: [img]Regarding wholly within. I think they changed rules for deployment zones to wholly within in one of the more recent updates. So i dont think it's reasonable to claim som3 models being within is good enough for the unit to be wholly within anymore...
Its in rulebook official update 1.3. On reference to deployment. If models could be partially within deployment zones that would be madness. In the picture its only for one scenario but there are similar erratas on the other missions too later in the document
Setting up stuff within a deployment zone is not the same as measuring if something is within 9" of something. The FAQ I quoted is from the current rulebook FAQ and it clearly states that the every member of the unit only needs to be within 9" rather than wholly within 9".
If even part of your unit is outside 9", even if that's part of base or part of vehicle in case of unit of 1, that's no KFF bonus for you. Of course flip side to this thing is that stompa has shooting point 11" upside so will shoot even past knight height LOS blocking.
If thats the case why not just say models wholly within. Why even make the distinction.
tneva82 wrote: If even part of your unit is outside 9", even if that's part of base or part of vehicle in case of unit of 1, that's no KFF bonus for you. Of course flip side to this thing is that stompa has shooting point 11" upside so will shoot even past knight height LOS blocking.
Please refer to the quote where I proved you wrong.
Gitdakka wrote: [img]Regarding wholly within. I think they changed rules for deployment zones to wholly within in one of the more recent updates. So i dont think it's reasonable to claim som3 models being within is good enough for the unit to be wholly within anymore...
Its in rulebook official update 1.3. On reference to deployment. If models could be partially within deployment zones that would be madness. In the picture its only for one scenario but there are similar erratas on the other missions too later in the document
Setting up stuff within a deployment zone is not the same as measuring if something is within 9" of something. The FAQ I quoted is from the current rulebook FAQ and it clearly states that the every member of the unit only needs to be within 9" rather than wholly within 9".
If even part of your unit is outside 9", even if that's part of base or part of vehicle in case of unit of 1, that's no KFF bonus for you. Of course flip side to this thing is that stompa has shooting point 11" upside so will shoot even past knight height LOS blocking.
If thats the case why not just say models wholly within. Why even make the distinction.
There's a very distinct difference between wholly (entirely) within and just within. Say if you could only attack in melee with models that a wholly within 1". Any model with a base larger than 1" could never attack.
A unit is entirely within 9" if every single member of the unit is within 9". Being within 9" is defined in the rulebook.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that every single model of a unit needs to be wholly or entirely within 9", especially since GW's clarifications on "wholly within" says the opposite.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit is within.
Kustom Force Field: If this model is equipped with a kustom force field, friendly ORK units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons. If the Big Mek is embarked, the vehicle transporting it has a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged weapons instead.
You conveniently left out the word "model" which I assume indicates a single model unit.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
I don't know really, I guess you could interpret that either way, but why mention "model" at all? Just makes it more confusing.
Because there are rules that care whether models are entirely within of something and there are rules which care whether there are units entirely within. KFF is the later.
what are we arguing about this for? it's simple. "wholly/entirely within", means bloody wholly/entirely within, as in every part of the model/unit..."within", means some part of the model/unit has to be within, aka, not "wholly/entirely"...sheesh.
edit: and if it reallllly needed to be clarified, obviously if a unit is required to be wholly/entirely within a distance, that would imply that every part of every model in said unit is required to be wholly/entirely within said distance.
ZoBo wrote: what are we arguing about this for? it's simple. "wholly/entirely within", means bloody wholly/entirely within, as in every part of the model/unit..."within", means some part of the model/unit has to be within, aka, not "wholly/entirely"...sheesh.
edit: and if it reallllly needed to be clarified, obviously if a unit is required to be wholly/entirely within a distance, that would imply that every part of every model in said unit is required to be wholly/entirely within said distance.
If a model needs to be wholly within, does the model need to be wholly within or just its base?
ZoBo wrote: what are we arguing about this for? it's simple. "wholly/entirely within", means bloody wholly/entirely within, as in every part of the model/unit..."within", means some part of the model/unit has to be within, aka, not "wholly/entirely"...sheesh.
edit: and if it reallllly needed to be clarified, obviously if a unit is required to be wholly/entirely within a distance, that would imply that every part of every model in said unit is required to be wholly/entirely within said distance.
If a model needs to be wholly within, does the model need to be wholly within or just its base?
I'm not sure there's any precedent for a rule which takes into account the 3D space of a model. Everything tends to be "to the base".
Because otherwise, if you had a KFF on top of a hill, it's bubble of effect would be... weird to track.
I think it's generally played as the base, as all measurements are done to/from bases. There may be a ruling somewhere though that goes against it.
This was all argued and clarified before.
Wholly within for kff is unit based.
So a stompa with its base partly inside means the unit is wholly within.
A squad of boys with all but 1 model inside means the unit is NOT wholly within.
That’s pretty much how every tournament plays it and GW clarified it. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves on your interpretation.
Quick question about when to use the Gorkanauts different Klaw profiles. most of the time its pretty obvious, but which should be used against something with high wounds and an invul?
Im thinking something like a flyrant that has 3+/4++ and 12 wounds. Any opinions? Im kinda leaning towards the more attacks flat 2 damage.
Billagio wrote: Quick question about when to use the Gorkanauts different Klaw profiles. most of the time its pretty obvious, but which should be used against something with high wounds and an invul?
Im thinking something like a flyrant that has 3+/4++ and 12 wounds. Any opinions? Im kinda leaning towards the more attacks flat 2 damage.
Usually the default answer is to go for more attacks over stronger attacks, because at least then you will have a better chance of doing SOME damage. The stronger attacks may have a higher ceiling, but also has a better chance of doing nothing at all.
However in this specific situation, someone will have to mathhammer it. You can even plug the numbers in yourself if you want. I may do it now just for the sake of curiosity.
But yeh, if you don't know the answer and you're in a game so no time to calculate it, I think the "more attacks the merrier" is often the best to go for. Ork Smash yo.
So yes, more attacks the better. This seems to be true against all targets though... Only time they draw pretty even seems to be against T8 targets, with a gap between saves (such as a 2+/5++), where the Crush gains ground because of the AP.
Maybe if you had the ability to re-roll misses or wounds it would help too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The new psychic powers are pretty interesting.
Fists of Gork is just Diabolic Strength (already one of the better Chaos powers), except twice as good. Can't really complain about getting a better version of a strong power.
Da Krunch is... going to depend a bit on numbers I assume. But if your opponent has fielded a big unit of something (see bloodletter bomb), and you save a CP for a command reroll on the 2D6, you could end up putting a few wounds down. Think it works out better than smite in that situation.
Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
gungo wrote: Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
Depends on what you have on the table. One weirdboy? You'd stick with the force multiplier powers. Da Jump probably, and we shall see what the new ones are.
3 Weirdboys? Well then maybe you'll find space for it, depending on opponent.
Especially if Orks get some more options in line with all the other armies, such as a Psyker HQ character (Zogwort ftw), or a psyker who can take 2 powers instead of just the 1. Here's hoping.
gungo wrote: Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
Depends on what you have on the table. One weirdboy? You'd stick with the force multiplier powers. Da Jump probably, and we shall see what the new ones are.
3 Weirdboys? Well then maybe you'll find space for it, depending on opponent.
Especially if Orks get some more options in line with all the other armies, such as a Psyker HQ character (Zogwort ftw), or a psyker who can take 2 powers instead of just the 1. Here's hoping.
Agreed, it would be nice to maybe buy a second psychic power like we could with warphead in older editions.
Love it when people make great claims of 150! Attacks in CC. As if you would ever get every single Ork boy into CC (while getting no casualties either).
It's not like Guard shooting. There's no way in Hell you get every single boy in cc to get maximum attacks.
This isn't to anyone in particular, just a general gripe with every Ork tactics discussion.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Love it when people make great claims of 150! Attacks in CC. As if you would ever get everything keys boy into CC.
It's not like Guard shooting. There's no way in Hell you get every single boy in cc to get maximum attacks.
This isn't to anyone in particular, just a general gripe with every Ork tactics discussion.
Well that's the main issue with armchair generals on forums, everyone tends to assume "in-a-vacuum" situations that don't often happen in real games. It leads to both extremes of assuming things are OP or complete garbage, it's rare for people to have a consensus on things being more in-between.
Personally, I'm disappointed to see that it doesn't seem there's any relics that give us invulns in CC, meaning that badmoonz warlord trait with the supa cybork is going to be our only tanky build for a warboss. Also, I'm kinda surprised there's no Mega Kustom Force Field relic, as I'd prefer that over the fixer upperz that the Deffskullz have.
While I would love to have it, it probably wouldn't be the healthiest thing for the game if we could have a bunch of 4++ boyz, so I can understand no KFF relic.
GreatGranpapy wrote: While I would love to have it, it probably wouldn't be the healthiest thing for the game if we could have a bunch of 4++ boyz, so I can understand no KFF relic.
I could see them lowering the range bubble to 6" instead, and it's easy to forget that it doesn't work in CC. Given that you only have one of it, I don't see it as that ridiculous.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Love it when people make great claims of 150! Attacks in CC. As if you would ever get everything keys boy into CC.
It's not like Guard shooting. There's no way in Hell you get every single boy in cc to get maximum attacks.
This isn't to anyone in particular, just a general gripe with every Ork tactics discussion.
Well that's the main issue with armchair generals on forums, everyone tends to assume "in-a-vacuum" situations that don't often happen in real games. It leads to both extremes of assuming things are OP or complete garbage, it's rare for people to have a consensus on things being more in-between.
Personally, I'm disappointed to see that it doesn't seem there's any relics that give us invulns in CC, meaning that badmoonz warlord trait with the supa cybork is going to be our only tanky build for a warboss. Also, I'm kinda surprised there's no Mega Kustom Force Field relic, as I'd prefer that over the fixer upperz that the Deffskullz have.
Wait, the relics have been leaked/released? I've not seen anything on here or whcomm
Nightlord1987 wrote: Love it when people make great claims of 150! Attacks in CC. As if you would ever get everything keys boy into CC.
It's not like Guard shooting. There's no way in Hell you get every single boy in cc to get maximum attacks.
This isn't to anyone in particular, just a general gripe with every Ork tactics discussion.
Well that's the main issue with armchair generals on forums, everyone tends to assume "in-a-vacuum" situations that don't often happen in real games. It leads to both extremes of assuming things are OP or complete garbage, it's rare for people to have a consensus on things being more in-between.
Personally, I'm disappointed to see that it doesn't seem there's any relics that give us invulns in CC, meaning that badmoonz warlord trait with the supa cybork is going to be our only tanky build for a warboss. Also, I'm kinda surprised there's no Mega Kustom Force Field relic, as I'd prefer that over the fixer upperz that the Deffskullz have.
Wait, the relics have been leaked/released? I've not seen anything on here or whcomm
Not on warhammer community, it was leaked via a youtuber. The list is as follows:
Universal RELICS
Da Dead Shiny Shoota: Replace shoot/kustom shoota/kombi shoota: RNG 18" Assault 12 S4 AP -1 DMG 1
Headwoppas Killchoppa: Replace big choppa; S+2 AP -2 DMG 2, inflict 2 mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6+ instead of normal damage.
Super Cybork Body; 5+ to ignore wounds. No dok Tools can effect this model
Da Killa Klaw; replace power klaw, Sx2 AP -3 DMG 3 reroll wounds
Scorched Gitbonez - Psyker only, Add 1 to psychic tests
Git Stoppa Shells. Model with Kustom Shoota, Kombi Shoot, +1 to Strength and Damage, Improve AP by 1.
Klan Relics
GOFFS Da Lucky Stick, replace a banner - +1 to hit rolls with in 6", reroll hit and damage rolls for the bearer (re rolling damage for a banner nob is currently pointless so the banner mob datasheet must be changing a bit)
BLOOD AXES Morgogs finkin cap, gain another warlord trait, if not your warlord gain a warlord trait but cant be the same as the warlords.
EVIL SUNS Rezmekkas, redder armour- +1 to the transport movement the bearer is embarked in. Start of the movement phase roll a D6 for all enemies within 1" of the transport, on a 4+ deal D3 mortal wounds.
BAD MOONS da gobshot thunderbuss; replace shoota, kustom shoota, kombi shoota. RANGE 12", HEAVY 2D6 S5 AP-1 DMG 1, auto hits.
DEATH SKULLS da fixxer upperz, gains the mekaniak ability, if it already has it then the ability auto heals 3 wounds.
SNAKEBITE Broggs Buzzbomb, GRENADE RANGE 6", grenade 3d6 S5 AP -1 DMG 1 , auto hits, one use only. When it hits resolve 2D6 attacks on an enemy unit 6" within the target unit.
FREEBOOTERS Da Badskull Banner, once per battle use. all freebooters become immune to morale for a turn
Hades wrote: Wow havent seen a lineup of relics that bad since craftworlds codex.
While I wouldn't say all of them are hits, for the most part I think they're decent. The supa cybork body gives us something to fall back on for a tanky Warboss build, the Killa Klaw is a clear winner from how It not only has a flat 3 damage and re-roll wounds ability, but presumably no -1 to hit. Combine that with a Fists of Gork buff from a weirdboy, and you got a potential 6 S16 Damage 3 attacks that hit and wound most things on a 2+. Da Dead Shiny Shoota is actually decent on a Bad Moonz character and the Bad Moonz relic isn't bad considering you effectively a 12" twin-linked skorcha. I don't mind that we don't have any crazy CP regen relics given that it's been nerfed from the recent Big FAQ anyways, and as far as I remember, we have one tied to the Blood Axe Warlord trait.
gungo wrote: Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
DG has a similar power (plague wind) and you regularly see it taken on Mortarion himself. It's basically a power you use against units that would take more damage from it than from smite.
Smite does 2 wounds on average, so any unit with numbers higher than 12 is a good target for that power. I'd only ever take it on warphead #2 or #3, just like I'd never take plague wind it on my only psyker in a DG army. Mortarion has 3 powers but can cast only 2, so plague wind is usually take on him to help him clear horde units. No matter how big the scythe is, it cannot kill more than 18 gretchin a turn.
See, recently people have become less afraid of the standard warboss. before however even if it wasnt warranted people just seemed to have a deep seated fear about warbosses. Now its quite possible that the bosses can put the fear back into people. Some of the potential combos make for a dead killy boss i think.
Now my main concern is what they will do to Ghazzy to make him relevant. Cuz at this point hes not really worth the point difference outside walking him with a few squad of boyz.
gungo wrote: Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
I like it. Doesn't even need to target a large unit. It could be useful against small multi wound units. My opponents toughest using recently has been aggressors wit their fancy T5, 2 wounds and good or better save. Standing behind a power armoured screen. Anything that can cut a squad of 10 marines in half or better and I'm a happy Warboss. I have to read the spell again to think of other things i'd like to melt.
But I see potential.
Also, in my last list I had a SAG Mek and if I had this spell I would have had this instead, along with all my other mortal wound generation. This almost seems more reliable.
gungo wrote: Da Krunch is just an odd power
Rarely do you have swarm type units that require mortal wounds to kill... tzeentch horror spam???
If I was really worried about swarm units the snakebite bomb probably does a better job w auto hitting 3d6 str5 -1ap atks with another 2d6 hits in another unit....
But honestly our best way to deal with swarms is weight of atks, not to say Da Krunch isn’t a nice way to weaken them up, but I’d probably memorize another more versatile power.
I like it. Doesn't even need to target a large unit. It could be useful against small multi wound units. My opponents toughest using recently has been aggressors wit their fancy T5, 2 wounds and good or better save. Standing behind a power armoured screen. Anything that can cut a squad of 10 marines in half or better and I'm a happy Warboss. I have to read the spell again to think of other things i'd like to melt.
But I see potential.
Also, in my last list I had a SAG Mek and if I had this spell I would have had this instead, along with all my other mortal wound generation. This almost seems more reliable.
How would Da Krunch cut a squad of 10 marines in half? You would be lucky to get 2 mortal wounds on such a unit. Or am I missing something?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Love it when people make great claims of 150! Attacks in CC. As if you would ever get everything keys boy into CC.
It's not like Guard shooting. There's no way in Hell you get every single boy in cc to get maximum attacks.
This isn't to anyone in particular, just a general gripe with every Ork tactics discussion.
Well that's the main issue with armchair generals on forums, everyone tends to assume "in-a-vacuum" situations that don't often happen in real games. It leads to both extremes of assuming things are OP or complete garbage, it's rare for people to have a consensus on things being more in-between.
Personally, I'm disappointed to see that it doesn't seem there's any relics that give us invulns in CC, meaning that badmoonz warlord trait with the supa cybork is going to be our only tanky build for a warboss. Also, I'm kinda surprised there's no Mega Kustom Force Field relic, as I'd prefer that over the fixer upperz that the Deffskullz have.
Wait, the relics have been leaked/released? I've not seen anything on here or whcomm
Not on warhammer community, it was leaked via a youtuber. The list is as follows:
Universal RELICS
Da Dead Shiny Shoota: Replace shoot/kustom shoota/kombi shoota: RNG 18" Assault 12 S4 AP -1 DMG 1
Headwoppas Killchoppa: Replace big choppa; S+2 AP -2 DMG 2, inflict 2 mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6+ instead of normal damage.
Super Cybork Body; 5+ to ignore wounds. No dok Tools can effect this model
Da Killa Klaw; replace power klaw, Sx2 AP -3 DMG 3 reroll wounds
Scorched Gitbonez - Psyker only, Add 1 to psychic tests
Git Stoppa Shells. Model with Kustom Shoota, Kombi Shoot, +1 to Strength and Damage, Improve AP by 1.
Klan Relics
GOFFS Da Lucky Stick, replace a banner - +1 to hit rolls with in 6", reroll hit and damage rolls for the bearer (re rolling damage for a banner nob is currently pointless so the banner mob datasheet must be changing a bit)
BLOOD AXES Morgogs finkin cap, gain another warlord trait, if not your warlord gain a warlord trait but cant be the same as the warlords.
EVIL SUNS Rezmekkas, redder armour- +1 to the transport movement the bearer is embarked in. Start of the movement phase roll a D6 for all enemies within 1" of the transport, on a 4+ deal D3 mortal wounds.
BAD MOONS da gobshot thunderbuss; replace shoota, kustom shoota, kombi shoota. RANGE 12", HEAVY 2D6 S5 AP-1 DMG 1, auto hits.
DEATH SKULLS da fixxer upperz, gains the mekaniak ability, if it already has it then the ability auto heals 3 wounds.
SNAKEBITE Broggs Buzzbomb, GRENADE RANGE 6", grenade 3d6 S5 AP -1 DMG 1 , auto hits, one use only. When it hits resolve 2D6 attacks on an enemy unit 6" within the target unit.
FREEBOOTERS Da Badskull Banner, once per battle use. all freebooters become immune to morale for a turn
Dead shiny - Uninspired ork gun that doesnt even kill a MEQ a turn, 2-3 GEQ if your having trouble with them? Even less sonce your warboss should be advancing every turn.
Headwoppas, decent always been decent but one of maybe two weapons that deal mortals instead of vs on top of dmg.
Super Cybork - means your WB doesnt need to be babysat by a painboy but healing d3 wounds a turn is much stronger than +1 FNP
Killa klaw - the only real choice and makes power klaws what they were supposed to be.
Schorched Gitbones - yeah...we need more modifiers to casting probably the worst
Git stoppa shells - have to actually hit something to stop the Gits maybe worse than gitbones
Lucky stick - I mean I understand why they dont want it to be as broken as 7th but if only a nob banner character can take meh. You want to be multiplying your best characters strength not some support elite slot.
Thinking cap - When the relic list is this bad you should splash to another list.
Evil suns - A pretty powerful effect but means your character can never get off his ride to get into CC where you want them. Your out of luck when your rides are all scrap.
Blunderbuss - Nice little flamer good for overwatch but using it in your own turn just makes your charges that much harder by your opponent removing the closest models.
Fixxer Upper - 3 wounds a turn is nice but a halfway decent oppenent will never let you fix the same vehicle twice. Two turns is plenty of time in 8th to destroy any vehicle. Also mekianik is so bad having to walk alongside instead of riding inside. Asking to be sniped or sniped by planes.
Buzzbomb - Decent horde killing power but with only 6" range and you cant throw grenades after advancing so you'll never get this off. Youve also made your charge harder.
Banner - Either your big mobs so your immune or small elite mobs which shot complety to death or dont lose enough to care. CP reroll and CP auto pass is enough morale mitigation. Hopefully youll at least be able to use it whenever you want and not something dumb like start of your turn.
Hades wrote: Wow havent seen a lineup of relics that bad since craftworlds codex.
Don't know what you're talking about; this is one of the best relic lists we've seen imo.
Youve never looked at the Dark Eldar codex. The worst relic is a short range targettable smite grenade that buffs things around the character afterwords. DE can actually use it with their 19" move flying transport that can be closest to whatever character they want.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Do we know if the Lucky stick is a flat +1 to hit? That would be useful for ranged stuff like Flash gitz, Lootas, or the big naut/stompa guns.
That effect is different from what the first leak said, which claimed it only worked for characters. Sounds like now we have two different versions of this relic being claimed.
Headwoppa's Killchoppa - Replace big choppa
S+2 AP-2 D2 Wounds rolls of 6+ cause 2 mortal wounds in addition
Super cybork body
5+ FnP
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Scorched Gitbonez - Pysker only
Add 1 to psychic tests
Gitstoppa Shells - Model with kustom shoota, kombiweaponwith skorcha or kombiweapon with rokkits only
Add 1 to strength and damage of that weapons shoota or kustom shoota profile, improve the AP of that weapon by 1 as well (AP-1 becomes AP-2)
Da Lucky Stikk - Goff only
Add 1 to hit rolls made by friendly goff chracters within 6" of the bearer in the fight phase. In addition, you can reroll hit and damage rolls for attacks made by the bearer in the fight phase
Morgogs finkin cap - Blood axe only
If the bearer is your warlord you can generate a second warlord trait for them. If the bearer is not your warlord generate a warlord trait for them. The same warlord trait cannot be generated for both the bearer and the warlord.
Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
12" Heavy2d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon automatically hits its target
Da Fixxer Upperz - Deathskulls model only
The bearer gains the big mekaniak ability. If the beaerer already had the big mekaniak ability, the target of the ability regains 3 lost wounds instead of d3 every time it's used
Broggs Buzzbom - Snakebite only
6" Grenade3d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon can be used once per battle. After all of its attacks have been resolved, you can immediately select another enemy unit within 6" of the target and resolve 2d6 attacks against it with the sam weapon. This ability only occurs once. This weapons automatically hits its target
Da Badskull banner - Freebooterz only
Once per battle, at the start of your turn, the bearer of Da Badskull Banner can choose to fly on its boss pole. If they do so, friendly freebooter units do not have to take morale tests until the start of your next turn
Notice that the stikk is just for characters here.
Kirioth didn't provide a text post for his video with the relics, all the variations on the relic rules are from bad transcriptions. Kirioth is the source of the leaks, so I would honestly just disregard any details that don't line up with what he posted.
Da Lucky Stikk has not actually been stated to replace a banner in the source material. The claim that it replaces a banner came from someone who improperly transcribed Kirioth's video, I mentioned to the transcriber that he got that bit wrong and he said he just assumed that it would replace a banner. So basically someone muddled the information from the actual source but he happened to be the first one to make the text post and it is consequently being shared all over the place.
It also doesn't make much sense for it to only replace a banner, it has properties that don't even affect a banner nob (like re-rolling damage rolls).
It is characters only it affects, according to the original source. That was also my transcription, which I'm fairly certain was the first one out. People just read it too hastily and got overexcited. Then that spread
The phrasing isn't verbatim in the transcription though, and I have noticed that I wrote down the thunderbuss wrong since it only replaces the shoota part of the weapon.
I was debating of going back and changing it to being verbatim but the issue is that the text provided by Kirioth clearly isn't how it's going to be phrased in the codex anyways, and the codex is out so soon. And that would be preced by image leaks most likely
Wagonsmasha da Kunnin, Bloodaxe Warboss on bike, PK Finkin' Kap for two warlord traits
1) Reroll to hit, +1 to damage against vehicles when charging
2) +1 to sterngth, +1 to attack
5 Attacks hits vehicles on 3+ with re-rolls, wounds T7 on 2+, all other on 3+, and does d3+1 damage. Also 3+ armor against shooting and can fall back every turn to get his bonus for charging again.
Dead 'ard Git, Badmoon Mega-Armoured Warboss with combi-skorcha
4++ warlord traits
5+++ Supa-Cyborl
T5/7W/2+/4++/5+++, perfect for daemon prince hunting.
Da Blast, Deff Skulls Big Mek with SAG Warlord trait for re-rolling ones against vehicles and can shoot characters.
One re-roll from deff skulls clan trait
If the allaitoc trait should really change to permanet cover, I will have a field day blasting Illic with this.
As is I can see a Bad Moonz back up gunline being found in every competitive ork list the same way you very often see the Eldar feature a black heart archon with 3x Ravagers. A cheap Weirdboy for smite and powers leading a battery of KMKs would be a welcome addition to any list. As is that is 440 points for 36" 9d6 s8 ap-3 d3 damage bs4+ shots that explode on sixes and re-roll ones with a smite bot. That's some solid, solid dakka. Add in buggies for flavor if desired.
I am unsure if Goffs will find their place with the info we have on them so far. Their skarboys stratagem is money, but it only works on boys which are very likely getting nerfed. If we have stormboyz stay the same I feel we won't really be seeing many normal boys anymore. Orks will want to get into combat fast which is where the evil sunz will get a big advantage. On top of this we will likely see the blood axes get their armor boost for counting as being in cover which will go a long way in keeping their toys alive. Going from a 6+ armor to a 5+ against shooting is a massive boost as well as boosting their vehicles to 2+ and 3+ armor largely lessening the reliance on a KFF to protect them.
My predictions right now for competitive will be Bad Moonz support shooting and either evil sunz rush builds or a more versatile, but limited Blood Axe approach.
koooaei wrote: Ghazzy can now deepstrike in a trukk or wagon for some 3d turn charge. Might be ok
The idea of investing 200+ points as well as CPs to have him be useless for three turns in a game where the games are often over by turn 3 or four seems like a horrible idea.
koooaei wrote: Ghazzy can now deepstrike in a trukk or wagon for some 3d turn charge. Might be ok
Or he can just deepstrike by himself for a turn 2 charge. Only reason to bring a trukk is if you want to carry the unit somewhere, and if you're charging you don't really need it.
Might be different if you were including some nobz or something to make up a bigger charging unit, as then it would save some CP on the stratagem by using it on multiple units in one trukk instead of doing them all seperately. But that's gonna depend on if nobz are worth taking, especially as you'd have to pay the trukk tax on top of their usual points.
Also, Ardboyz are back obviously. What Klan will be able to take advantage of them most efficiently?
Lastly, are Painboyz no longer mandatory for Klanz like 'Bites & Deffskullz?
Painboyz are more redundant for Snakebites than Deffskullz, since Deffskullz can still use their 6+ invuln. on top of the 6+ FNP, whereas Snakebitez can't. At most for Snakebitez, you'd have a Painboy only for the D3 wound recovery for your Warboss or Weirdboy.
Ardboyz will be best utilized by Blood Axes due to their inbuilt cover trait, meaning that against shooting their ard boyz have a 4+ save. Depending on whether or not the skrap stratagem from destroying an enemy vehicle is Deffskull specific, if so, that would make Deffskullz the other klan to make the most of it potentially.
I plan to use speedfreaks bikers with Zhadsnark and Biker boss for possible first turn charges followed by Skarboys goffs with Ghaz. I could da jump the boys close to the opponent and then tellyport ghaz up behind them.
Id more then likely use badmoons shooty units for my backline.
I like to play smaller point tournaments at my local store. Even with the index I had lots of success with my speed freaks in 1k tournies and below.
Hell id like to try using my deff dreads and kanz again. I wonder if they would be affected by the speedfreaks key word. Ive been building a mekadread and it would be cool if the dreads and kanz could stay up with him for a possible 1st or second turn charge.
I hope that forgeworld puts out a FAQ to give the ork units the new keywords. I look forward to seeing what the evil sunz are getting tomorrow.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: I plan to use speedfreaks bikers with Zhadsnark and Biker boss for possible first turn charges followed by Skarboys goffs with Ghaz. I could da jump the boys close to the opponent and then tellyport ghaz up behind them.
Id more then likely use badmoons shooty units for my backline.
I like to play smaller point tournaments at my local store. Even with the index I had lots of success with my speed freaks in 1k tournies and below.
Hell id like to try using my deff dreads and kanz again. I wonder if they would be affected by the speedfreaks key word. Ive been building a mekadread and it would be cool if the dreads and kanz could stay up with him for a possible 1st or second turn charge.
I hope that forgeworld puts out a FAQ to give the ork units the new keywords. I look forward to seeing what the evil sunz are getting tomorrow.
Just like early 8th... this so far sounds like the best list...now with more clan traits, relics, strategems!!!
Zhardsnark...leader of evil suns detachment with an amazing PK Warboss on trike....(is this a bike or vehicle keyword model? If it’s a bike painboy on bike works for fnp)
Warboss on bike w relic klaw
Painboy on bike with lukky stikk (this actually makes painboy hit w thier klaw now)
Add Swarms of skar Boyz like normal (give your nob the killchoppa If you want another hard hitter)
Add back field full of badmoons KMK, maybe even morkanaut depending on points and/or dragsta.
Morkanaut provides massive kff bubble to protect your hoards.
3 detachments evilsuns, Goff’s, badmoons
This gives you decent shooting with one of our best wpn profiles, fast aura support on bikes that hit like trucks, and hard hitting swarms...
Theoryhammering first list I might try for tournament with requirement of minimum things to buy. Painting takes time and there\s all painted requirement on pretty much every tournament I attend to(tournaments that allow non painted tend to be on far away places).
weirdboy
big mek w/kff runtherd
4xKMK
25xgrots
2x10 grots
goff battallion:
2xnew trike HQ 3x10 grot
gorkanaut
So 3 battallions for 18CP starting. Gorkanauts+dreadnoughts tellyport=6CP spent. KMK's bad moon for reroll 1's to hit. One gorkanaut goff's due to already being painted as such and like hell I repaint. Grots took role of boyz before and just camp on objectives. Deep striking walkers with 8" charges and 3d6" 9" charge(if the rumoured 3d6 charge strategem is true) will do hopefully real killing. 4 KMK's rerolling 1's and DDD hopefully does some damage. Bike HQ's will be aiming to charge on T2 along with deep striking vehicles. Bit worried how to keep them alive T1 AND get enough forward to make T2 charge if up against gunline.
2xda jump for weirdboys+something else depending on what new powers we get
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gungo wrote: Just like early 8th... this so far sounds like the best list...now with more clan traits, relics, strategems!!!
Zhardsnark...leader of evil suns detachment with an amazing PK Warboss on trike....(is this a bike or vehicle keyword model? If it’s a bike painboy on bike works for fnp)
Warboss on bike w relic klaw
Painboy on bike with lukky stikk (this actually makes painboy hit w thier klaw now)
Add Swarms of skar Boyz like normal (give your nob the killchoppa If you want another hard hitter)
Add back field full of badmoons KMK, maybe even morkanaut depending on points and/or dragsta.
Morkanaut provides massive kff bubble to protect your hoards.
3 detachments evilsuns, Goff’s, badmoons
This gives you decent shooting with one of our best wpn profiles, fast aura support on bikes that hit like trucks, and hard hitting swarms...
And how you plan to fit those swarms of skar boyz? To have any chance of reaching gunline you will need minimum of 150 boyz(assuming you are happy with 30 reaching enemy) if you go 1st and 210 boyz if you go 2nd. With all that other stuff good luck fitting enough skarboyz at 7 pts a piece to survive 60 model a turn loss.
@tneva. I've never had a 60 model a turn loss so I don't know what that's like. I will have other threats that they will have to worry about. I stated in my last post that I play smaller tournaments and I haven't yet gone up against an army that will wipe a mob that quickly and ignore my other nasty units. It would be nice for a large mob to get there but I don't put all my eggs in one basket with any army I use. You know it's funny. People on dakka like to shoot down my lists with "what ifs" but I still win local tournaments. Maybe it's because my FLGS doesn't have any power gamers and everyone plays mono faction armies. Regardless I have fun and don't feel the need to win every game I play. I see it as I either win or I learn.
Thing is those other tough things are vehicles. Have morkanaut? Opponent is happy as killing it is with lascannons etc wont slow down killing boyz so he will kill 60 boyz and morkanaut. List quoted has no nasty things that will draw firepower from boyz. Nobody shoots horde killing weapon at morkanaut anyway unless morkanaut is only thing in army which clearly it isn't if there are skarboyz.
And if your opponents can't shoot 60 boyz a turn they are amateur lists. Even suboptimal dark eldar with dozen dark lances can do that and those lances are worse of vs vehicles and infantry. Or dark angels and marines are suboptimal to begin with. Basically any army that isn't deliberately made weak finds 60 boyz a turn easy goal. Nevermind actually competive armies
excuse the probably dumb question, but how do things work in regards to...say I wanted to run a few detachments, each one being a different clan...would each separate single-clan detachment still get their clan kultur?...or does only the "primary detachment"?...or do none of them get their clan kultur?
I have a mental picture of a few small clan-specialised detachments working together, say, some speedy evil sunz stuff, some shooty badmoons, and a beefy blob of goffs, or something like that...but that would really only be worth it if they'd all get their respective clan rules...
I assume you get to keep Klan traits as long as the entire detachment is of the same clan, might be wrong though. Does anyone know if we would be limited to 3 klans max too? Or how do the rules regarding different keyword detachments work?
@tneva 7pts a boy means nobody is fielding 200+ boys anymore unless that’s all your going to bring which means you already lost.
2-3x 30 Boyz is pretty much all I plan on taking especially since the grots are the real screen now.....
Or did you forget they eat other units wounds
Shoot at my boys all you want you are only killing grots!!!
Furthermore you can take the cheaper Morkanaut to protect those 2-3 units of skarboys. Plus the painboy on bike w lucky stikk!!
The days of playing 200+ orks is over
Detach 1- Goff
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
30x skar Boyz nob w relic choppa
30x skar Boyz
30x (or 10x to combine and jump) skar Boyz
Detach 2-evil suns
Zhardsnark
Warboss on bike w relic claw
Warboss on trike (warlord)
3x grot screens
Detach 3- badmoons
Weirdboy
3-4x kmk Morkanaut
Maybe killkans w kmk depending on price
Or tankbustas in trukks
Or dragsta w kmk if price doesn’t suck
Or dakka jet (but probably not)
My list will be some variant of the above... it worked in early 8th and leaks so far seems to only reinforce the same.
gungo wrote: Detach 1- Goff
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
30x skar Boyz nob w relic choppa 30x skar Boyz
30x (or 10x to combine and jump) skar Boyz
He wouldn't be able to take a relic though, would he? Since you can only give relics to characters
You are right I keep forgetting nobs aren’t characters..
It’s ok 3 relics is a bit much... if the trike isn’t considered a bike you can give him the supa cybork to make him durable, but I’m not sure that’s a good use of 3cp.
U still want to give all those skar Boyz nobs big choppas.
So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...
Weazel wrote: So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...
Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.
Weazel wrote: So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...
Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.
I agree with this completely except zhardsnark has to be evil suns...
but ya so far skarboys are just stronger boy swarms
Badmoons takes one of our best wpn profiles and makes it better
Then your main detachment is either evil sun/bloodaxe but your Boyz can’t be skarboyz and bloodaxe so it depends what the rest of your list contains and the strategems available.
I think painboy on bike w lukky stikk is a winner. It made a horribly unaccurate weapon actually good.
Warboss on bike w relic klaw is just as good as before.
My only issue is now I likely need a lot more grots for that bullet screen ability that was leaked early on.
The exact wording in that ability could save a lot of units such as kans/dreads etc depending on points.
I’m also interested in points of bikers/nob bikers who can also be brutal again like they use too.
Skarboyz in cheap battlewagons will be have a strong turn 2 charge, and are counter meta twice, in different ways.
On turn 1 they will have a lot of T8 wounds to get through, which won't be too hard for a competitive list, but then the boyz spill and turn into a horde. If someone has both anti-tank and anti-horde, and don't get unlucky on the BWs, they could eat your lunch, but skew lists will have trouble with one phase or the other.
I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...
Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...
So my evil sunz bikers now have a threat range of 19-36 inches! It's worth mentioning that Zhadsnark has the evil sunz keyword already. Between moving advancing and charging evil sunz get 4" extra between all 3 phases. Pair ten and Zhadsnark with the deffkopta trike and they still charge after advancing. And they can still shoot their dakka guns with no penalty and generate additional hits on 6s. Also I thought I read on the warhammer community page that they got a pts drop but that might have just been the mega nobz.
gungo wrote: I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...
Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...
Yeah, they can be (really) fast and somewhat durable. It's the damage output that I often find lacking. I just wish they did more in CC
gungo wrote: I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...
Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...
Yeah, they can be (really) fast and somewhat durable. It's the damage output that I often find lacking. I just wish they did more in CC
I 100% agree. The bikers are fast and somewhat durable, but in combat they are still just boyz and shooting they are still only shooting 6 s5 ap- d1 shots that hit on 5s. They really need a big point drop to be worth bringing.
JimOnMars wrote: Skarboyz in cheap battlewagons will be have a strong turn 2 charge, and are counter meta twice, in different ways.
On turn 1 they will have a lot of T8 wounds to get through, which won't be too hard for a competitive list, but then the boyz spill and turn into a horde. If someone has both anti-tank and anti-horde, and don't get unlucky on the BWs, they could eat your lunch, but skew lists will have trouble with one phase or the other.
You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.
This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.
Weazel wrote: So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...
Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.
I agree with this assessment. Boys gain the most from evil sunz, you're getting 2" extra a turn guaranteed, from the original 5"+D6 that is a massive upgrade. On vehicles it's a nice addition but relatively purposeless. Shoring up unit weaknesses is a good way to look at these kultures, IMO.
You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.
This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.
I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it there is no rule stating a vehicle has to charge front first is there? I don't think my mates will like it tho .
You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.
This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.
I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it there is no rule stating a vehicle has to charge front first is there? I don't think my mates will like it tho .
Vehicles no longer have arcs of fire or front facing. Previously you would want your best armour value facing forward, well those days are gone! Loads of people do it. Rhinos, Trukks, Wave Serpents, Ghost Arks. All vehicle drivers in 40k know how to Tokyo drift!! Its mainly done in the tournament scene as its "gamey" but there are loads of loopholes in 8th.
People do it to me and i do it to people its good with battlewagons as they are so god damn long haha!
gungo wrote: @tneva 7pts a boy means nobody is fielding 200+ boys anymore unless that’s all your going to bring which means you already lost.
2-3x 30 Boyz is pretty much all I plan on taking especially since the grots are the real screen now.....
Or did you forget they eat other units wounds
Shoot at my boys all you want you are only killing grots!!!
Furthermore you can take the cheaper Morkanaut to protect those 2-3 units of skarboys. Plus the painboy on bike w lucky stikk!!
The days of playing 200+ orks is over
Detach 1- Goff
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
30x skar Boyz nob w relic choppa
30x skar Boyz
30x (or 10x to combine and jump) skar Boyz
Detach 2-evil suns
Zhardsnark
Warboss on bike w relic claw
Warboss on trike (warlord)
3x grot screens
Detach 3- badmoons
Weirdboy
3-4x kmk Morkanaut
Maybe killkans w kmk depending on price
Or tankbustas in trukks
Or dragsta w kmk if price doesn’t suck
Or dakka jet (but probably not)
My list will be some variant of the above... it worked in early 8th and leaks so far seems to only reinforce the same.
I think that spam boyz lists are better than ever. There are plenty of buffs to consider. Like deepstrikes, fights twice and rumored squad regens.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...
I think that deffskullz are one of the best. Also, snakebite vehicle and meganob spam might be decent depending on cost.
Given that it looks like it's gained about a x3 kick up in firepower (much, much more against stacked penalty-to-hit factions), would a stompa mob - especially a pair of bad moon stompas - finally do okay?
locarno24 wrote: Given that it looks like it's gained about a x3 kick up in firepower (much, much more against stacked penalty-to-hit factions), would a stompa mob - especially a pair of bad moon stompas - finally do okay?
Unless someone has the codex no one can accurately answer this question. There is just to many unknowns
I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.
So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.
So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.
koooaei wrote: I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.
So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.
I wouldnt bother with the mek shop. Not only are you not moving forward and fighting in close combat, immobile piece you have to end your move within 1" to trigger, but you cant shoot any guns on the turn of the "upgrade". So you've just paid 80 points to shoot 0 shots and then max shots the next...so averages? While giving up any board control two rounds of close combat, shooting from all other guns on the model and painting a huge target on whatever you upgrade. You don't get max shots when your opponent kills you in their next turn.
Agreed. If you field a stompa mob and they're roughly the same cost, giving up one of your two unit's firing one turn for better fire next turn seems like a loosing call when you need to be stomping forwards to plant that rusty metal butt on an objective.
I know it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but I'm just tempted by the idea.
It's a bit better than the numbers you've advertised - Dakka Dakka Dakka's "extra shot" rule means every D6 shots generates an average of 4 shots, not 3.5. Not an enormous difference, but every little helps, especially since you can't damage the stompa's BS like you can its WS.
koooaei wrote: I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.
So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.
I wouldnt bother with the mek shop. Not only are you not moving forward and fighting in close combat, immobile piece you have to end your move within 1" to trigger, but you cant shoot any guns on the turn of the "upgrade". So you've just paid 80 points to shoot 0 shots and then max shots the next...so averages? While giving up any board control two rounds of close combat, shooting from all other guns on the model and painting a huge target on whatever you upgrade. You don't get max shots when your opponent kills you in their next turn.
I'm thinking KMKs are going to be best for the mek shop? They aren't mobile anyway, and if I read it right one model in a unit can't shoot, but if any models in the unit use the weapon they get the upgrade. So you get a full unit of KMKs maxing out the number of shots.
ZoBo wrote: they count as separate units after deployment though right?
Right. Unless they change it in the codex, which I don't expect.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.
As things stand currently you can definitely put Goff MANz in an Evil Sunz Trukk because they can transport keyword Ork infantry. I don't see that changing on the codex. However, neither unit directly confers its Klan bonus to the other - the MANz don't become Evil Sunz as well as Goff, they remain Goff but are just taking advantage of the Trukks mobility advantages.
ZoBo wrote: they count as separate units after deployment though right?
Right. Unless they change it in the codex, which I don't expect.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.
As things stand currently you can definitely put Goff MANz in an Evil Sunz Trukk because they can transport keyword Ork infantry. I don't see that changing on the codex. However, neither unit directly confers its Klan bonus to the other - the MANz don't become Evil Sunz as well as Goff, they remain Goff but are just taking advantage of the Trukks mobility advantages.
I just wanted the extra 4" of total movement and I'll Tokyo drift charge with the trukk. Also the ability to use the -1 to hit strat. Keeping them Goffs gives them the "exploding 6s" and if I put some Goff characters with them the ability to benefit from things like the lucky stikk.
Seems like a good plan to me but I think that stratagem is only for Speed Freeks units rather than Evil Sunz units. Units like the new buggies can have both those keywords but I don't think Trukks will be Speed Freeks, sadly.
locarno24 wrote: Agreed. If you field a stompa mob and they're roughly the same cost, giving up one of your two unit's firing one turn for better fire next turn seems like a loosing call when you need to be stomping forwards to plant that rusty metal butt on an objective.
I know it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but I'm just tempted by the idea.
It's a bit better than the numbers you've advertised - Dakka Dakka Dakka's "extra shot" rule means every D6 shots generates an average of 4 shots, not 3.5. Not an enormous difference, but every little helps, especially since you can't damage the stompa's BS like you can its WS.
I'vi included ddd in the calculations allready. I might be wrong but statystically speaking it's just a 7/6 increase of hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anywayz, a stompa will shoot down an average of 1/4 knight a turn. Hard to calculate mellee as it degrades really quick in this regard. And durability is still really bad.
