Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:27:23


Post by: Jidmah


I'm da hand of Gork and Mork, dey sent me to rouse up da boyz to crush and kill ‘cos da boyz forgot what dere ‘ere for. I woz one of da boyz till da godz smashed me in da ‘ead an’ I ‘membered dat Orks is meant to conquer and make slaves of everyfing they don’t kill.

I’m da profit of da Waaagh an’ whole worlds burn in my boot prints. On Armour-Geddem, I led da boyz through da fire deserts and smashed da humies’ metal cities to scrap. I fought Yarik, old one-eye at Tarturus, an’ he fought good but we smashed iz city too.

I’m death to anyfing dat walks or crawls, where I go nothin’ stands in my way. We crushed da stunties on Golgotha, an’ we caught old one-eye when da speed freeks blew da humies’ big tanks ta bits. I let ‘im go ‘cause good enemies iz ‘ard to find, an Orks need enemies ta fight like they need meat ta eat an’ grog ta drink.

I iz more cunnin’ than a grot an’ more killy than a dread, da boyz dat follow me can’t be beat. On Pissenah we jumped da marine-boyz an’ our bosspoles was covered in da helmets we took from da dead ‘uns. We burned dere port an’ killed dere bosses an’ left nothin’ but ruins behind.

I’m Warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka an’ I speak wiv da word of da gods. We iz gonna stomp da ‘ooniverse flat an’ kill anyfing that fights back. We iz gonna do this coz’ we’re Orks an’ we was made ta fight an’ win!

- Graffiti on Warlord Battle Titan wreckage, found by Dark Angels at Westerisle, Piscina IV


A lot of fellow warbosses are currently taking their boyz for a spin with the actual rules, so I think we can start talking about actual tactics.

I know, us orks don't like rules, but a couple of things should be said before starting:
- This is supposed to be about competitive gaming. I know there are a lot of players you just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. You are all awesome people, but sorry, this thread isn't for you :(
- This thread is not the place to make guesses based on rumors or blogs you have read. If you are not one of the lucky people to have 8th edition rules yet, do not give advice based on rumors you've read or heard. Feel free to ask questions though!
- At this point it's safe to assume that any competitive gaming will be using points, not power level. Please don't base tactics on the obvious holes the power level system has.
- Keep in mind that not everybody has access to forgeworld models or rules.
- It is fine to agree to disagree.
- Back up your arguments.
- Orks never lose.
- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

Ork primer for high level competitive gaming:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751354.page

Collection of battle reports found here (no longer updated)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727761.page#9410547

Unit summary: (thanks to pismakron and koooaei!)
Boyz One of the best units in the game. The math favours sluggas, but shootas works surprisingly well and gives you some flexibility. If you are struggling with orks, bring more boyz.
Ghazkgull An absolute killing machine and surprisingly durable. Works well in mechanized lists as well as with foot infantry.
Warboss The buffs provided by a warboss are crucial for boy blobs, and his damage output is quite decent. The 'eadwomper's killchoppa (relic BC) is the best option for a Warboss, as is a Warbike, but leave the Mega Armor at home.
Weirdboy An auto-include. The weirdboy can reliable deny any psyker, is a smite machine, and has access to two good powers in Warpath and Da Jump.
Stormboyz Good for bracketing vehicles so they cannot fall back. Also, you don't lose out on the Greentide bonus by taking lots of min-sized squads. Basically faster moving boyz for a decent price.
Kommandos They can appear anywhere any time you like. While their bonus to their cover save is rarely useful, they are 15 boyz that can appear right next to your opponent, and boyz are good. They can get two burnaz for free.
Kustom Mega-Kannon Since price drop in CA, they are our best shooting option. You can have one crew fire multiple guns and have they other crews capture objectives and/or bubble-wrap.
Big Mek An important part of most ork lists, but not an auto-include. Always give him a KFF. A Warbike is also a good option as the KFF is very dependent on positioning. Don't waste points on klaws, saws, blastas or the shokk attack gun.
Painboy The 6+ save is pretty weak, but his abillity to heal characters is very useful. Healing weirdboyz and Ghaz will earn his points back, and with four attacks he has better damage output than a Big Mek.
Mad Dok Grotsnik A better painboy that only costs 9 more points. He is pretty tough with dual FNP saves and as killy as a warboss.
Tankbustas Very decent damage output, but they are way too squishy to use on foot. Works well in mechanized lists. Only unit that can make good use of the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem.
Banner Nob Provides a nice buff for all Ork lists, but he is pretty expensive. He is good with both walkers and footsloggers.
Nobz Come stock with 4+ armor now and can take ammo runts that increase their durability - especially useful against multi-wound weapons. They are an important part of most mechanized lists, but sadly our vehicles are overpriced. All shooting options but shootas are too expensive.
Kannon Not as good as the KMK since it has only one shot and big guns are less tough than mek guns. Still a decent anti-tank weapon, especially when spammed.
Snikrot Awesome objective camper due to his cover buff. If you have 2+ units of kommandoz, he can support them, but is by no means required to do so.
Gorkanaut Very tough and a beast in close-combat. The shooting is kind of meh, but better than the morkanaut.
Zaggstruk Extremely good if you take multiple full-sized squads of stormboyz. Some people have reported success running him on his own.
Dakkajet It can do plenty of damage, but it is easy to kill. It's also ok at killing anything, but not actually good against any specific targets. Can be useful for assassinating characters, as it can jump next to them and unload its guns on them.
Kaptin Badrukk he is a strong shooting unit with mediocre range, however his aura doesn't work well with flash gits at all for multiple reasons. Therefore most useful without flash gits.
Burna Bommer Bombs work best against elite infantry, has one more big shoota than a blitza bommer. Use Explosive Demise to discourage your opponent from shooting it down or do lots of damage. Use CP to re-roll explosion result. Do not take skorcha missiles.
Skorchas very cheap and good weapons, but their outflanking is almost useless because skorachs are always out of range. Deploy them regularly, so they can skorch something after advancing first turn.
Killa Kan Reasonably durable and shooty, but needs lots of baby sitting: A Banner Nob to make them usefull in close combat and a Bik Mek with a KFF to make them survive. They also need a warboss or command-points to help with morale. Oh, and they don't benefit from 'Ere We Go.
Lootas Good damage output, but very squishy and needs to remain stationary. Use command points to re-roll their shots.
Battlewagon Ok with hard-top and a deff-rolla. They are expensive and most shooting options are not worth it for their points. Best transport for melee units with little shooting, but too expensive and too easy to kill by dedicated anti-tank.
Trukk Now half a battlewagon for half the price. Best transport for ranged units, but still too easy to kill and too expensive.
Warbuggies/trakks they are basically a couple bikers welded together resulting in a slight increase in durability. Rokkits make them too expensive, big shootas aren't actually great weapons. Can outflank.
Warbikers really fast, have good shooting, are quite durable vs small arms fire but fold like wet paper vs damage 2 or more weapons - most notably overcharged plasma. Since they get to strike first when charging their melee is now decent.
Morkanaut Like the Gorkanaut but with less damage output and a gun that fries itself.
Deffkopta The bomb is good, and the ability to assault things that are behind a screen can be game-winning and they appear almost anywhere on the board. On the downside they are expensive and squishy and do too little.
Bubble chukka Fun option that has the potential to be totally devastating or totally harmless. Most important value is number of shots, and then strength. Strength doesn't matter if you fail to hit, AP and damage don't matter if you fail to wound.
Zzap gun More unreliable version of the kannon, but could potentially do three mortal wounds and kill three marines or something. Not worth the extra 3 points over a kannon though, and KMK does it better.
MANz Kill too little due to hit modifier, too slow. They are hard to kill roadblocks, but not worth their points. Dual killsaws are superior to shooting options.
Blitza-Bommer Bombs are good at causing mortal wounds, perfect for squads of infantry but not that good against vehicles. Since CA more expensive than burna bommer without actually being better at anything relevant.
Deff dread Very good damage output, but the dread is very squishy and badly needs KFF protection. Too slow to reliably charge on turn two. They are useless for shooting.
Burnas Too expensive and to squishy. Both shooting and melee is inferior to regular boyz.
Wazbom Blastajet Instead of paying for a KFF that's never where you need it and a plane with guns that don't hit the broad side of a barn, bring another bommer.
Nob Bikers twice the price of a nob with ammo runt with little to show for it. Combined with all shooting options bein expensive as sin, not worth fielding.
Lobba Don't pay 26 points for a big shoota.
Smasha gun There is no reason to not get a KMK instead of this. Still better against fliers than tractor kannons.
Tractor kannon Strictly worse than regular kannon, even against flyers.
Gretchin Boyz or artillery can do anything better they can do. In some corner case you might want to spend 30 points on a unit to fill a detachment, but try to avoid that.
Runtherd Useless because grots are useless. Can be spammed for character shenanigans.
Mini mek He has a cool model, but he really has no purpose. Waste of points.
Flash Gitz Very expensive and very squishy. They badly need a transport but they also need to remain stationary.
Stompa Costs three times they points of a grokanaut with the shooting of one.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:29:17


Post by: KurtAngle2


Something, something really necessary is missing...














WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:31:38


Post by: GreatGranpapy


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!


"clears throat"

All roight ladz, foist ordah o' bisness, shootas or sluggas?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:32:29


Post by: Jidmah


KurtAngle2 wrote:
Something, something really necessary is missing...

Fixed


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:33:20


Post by: KurtAngle2


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!


"clears throat"

All roight ladz, foist ordah o' bisness, shootas or sluggas?


Shoota is decent now but 3+ armies on cover will be a pain in the ass to fight, so choice is slugga for me


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:39:45


Post by: JohnU


For 30 boy mobz I'll try out a mix. Probably 10-12 sluggas and the rest shootas, then adjust from there. Getting 30 shootas into range at the same time isn't always easy and if the mob is down 10-15 boyz by the time they march across the board the slugga boyz can step in and keep the damage up.

For Trukk boyz, still all sluggas. Though I'm not sure about Trukk boyz when Stormboyz are so cheap now.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:42:10


Post by: GreatGranpapy


Oh can we mix and match sluggas and shootas now?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:45:03


Post by: JohnU


 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Oh can we mix and match sluggas and shootas now?


Yes indeed. And both options are 0 cost.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:46:59


Post by: Pedroig


Keep Boyz in Aura range, it really boosts their value, off on their own, they do o.k., but have them near a Warboss, Banner Boy, and Weirdbo, a kff will help them to keep numbers.

It is not hard to get Warboss, Banner, and Weird supported 25+ Boyz unit into CC on Turn 2, and if they are ChoppaBoyz you are looking at 125 hit rolls, not including the supporters.

Focus fire on turn 1 on your units/vehicles will still tear them up, but it takes quite a bit more focus then it use to...


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 19:52:49


Post by: davou


Interesting thing; Explodes rules say that damage happens before you disembark. So you get to blow up the trukk, roll for casualties and then put your mob down.

Using trukks like a missile to engage swathes of the other persons line means that when they blow up the trukks, they suffer from the 'explodes' rule and your own models then get to get out with only 1/6 casualties. Not to mention that whatever falls back from the trukks is charge stunned as a result


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:32:53


Post by: Nazrak


 JohnU wrote:
 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Oh can we mix and match sluggas and shootas now?


Yes indeed. And both options are 0 cost.

I missed this. INTERESTING…

I know it's pointless trying to second guess these things, but do we think that's intentional/likely to stick around once a full codex happens? Quite like the idea of my boyz being even less uniform than they are already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnU wrote:


For Trukk boyz, still all sluggas. Though I'm not sure about Trukk boyz when Stormboyz are so cheap now.

Aye, this may be just the push I need to start that Evil Sunz stormboyz mob I've been thinking about. Might wait til the new flying stems from those fat jump pack marines are more widely available though.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:36:57


Post by: koooaei


Wana add my first 8-th ed bat rep.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727637.page

quick insight:
- cover rules suck for orks
- don't let the 6-7 wound on your warboss fool you. He's way less durable vs heavy firepower than before. So, be careful with him. Not saying about any other less durable indep
- vehiles are still killable. Definitely more stable but still, don't expect to roll a trukk in front of your opponent's shooty stuff and keep it intact
- you no longer need troops to create cads with decent amount of command points. So, keep it in mind when building your lists. You might easilly encounter something like a...say, full devastator army.
- 30-strong blobs are FINALLY playable. At least thanks to casualties not being taken from the front. They mostly lost durability cause of no longer geting cover from intervening models but deal way more damage with stable 3+ to-hits, 4 str and more attacks. Templates are dead, so bunch up as much as you want to maximise damage.
- Mek guns are still fine - lost durability despite having more wounds and are way more expensive but ok. I liked a bubblechukka. It's overpriced a bit but a hell lot of fun
- Manz are not that great any more. They lost a lot of punch with 1 less attack and hiting on 4-s instead of 3-s (bully boyz). Can run+charge though. Still too expensive for my taste. Can probably be used to eat overwatch from small arms fire.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:38:53


Post by: Nazrak


Something else I spotted today: mega armour guys seem to have lost their stikkbombz. Guess it's pretty irrelevant with kustom shootas being assault 4 now (so more reliable on average than the D6 hits from a frag grenade) and grenades having no effect in CC any more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:40:42


Post by: davou


 koooaei wrote:
Wana add my first 8-th ed bat rep.

- Manz are not that great any more. They lost a lot of punch with 1 less attack and hiting on 4-s instead of 3-s (bully boyz). Can run+charge though. Still too expensive for my taste. Can probably be used to eat overwatch from small arms fire.


added it to my list of batreps!

and MANz hit on 3+ not 4+ 2+ even if you keep a banner nearby


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:41:17


Post by: Nazrak


 koooaei wrote:
Wana add my first 8-th ed bat rep.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727637.page

quick insight:
- cover rules suck for orks
- don't let the 6-7 wound on your warboss fool you. He's way less durable vs heavy firepower than before. So, be careful with him. Not saying about any other less durable indep
- vehiles are still killable. Definitely more stable but still, don't expect to roll a trukk in front of your opponent's shooty stuff and keep it intact
- you no longer need troops to create cads with decent amount of command points. So, keep it in mind when building your lists. You might easilly encounter something like a...say, full devastator army.
- 30-strong blobs are FINALLY playable. At least thanks to casualties not being taken from the front. They mostly lost durability cause of no longer geting cover from intervening models but deal way more damage with stable 3+ to-hits, 4 str and more attacks. Templates are dead, so bunch up as much as you want to maximise damage.
- Mek guns are still fine - lost durability despite having more wounds and are way more expensive but ok. I liked a bubblechukka. It's overpriced a bit but a hell lot of fun
- Manz are not that great any more. They lost a lot of punch with 1 less attack and hiting on 4-s instead of 3-s (bully boyz). Can run+charge though. Still too expensive for my taste. Can probably be used to eat overwatch from small arms fire.

Cheers for that. Per the MANz point, do we reckon a Waaagh banner with them would be a smart way of mitigating the -1 to hit with Power Klaws?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:42:36


Post by: davou


oh right, minus 1 from klaws.... my stupid


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 20:42:38


Post by: Nazrak


 davou wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Wana add my first 8-th ed bat rep.

- Manz are not that great any more. They lost a lot of punch with 1 less attack and hiting on 4-s instead of 3-s (bully boyz). Can run+charge though. Still too expensive for my taste. Can probably be used to eat overwatch from small arms fire.


added it to my list of batreps!

and MANz hit on 3+ not 4+ 2+ even if you keep a banner nearby

Power Klaws strike at -1 to hit now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaten to the punch. Just like a 7th ed power klaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just read that 3plusplus batrep. If I'm not mistaken, I think they misinterpreted how the Counter-Offensive stratagem works – doesn't one charging unit still get to strike first before you can use it?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:20:56


Post by: Palleus


I love the look of Big Choppas now. Hitting better than Power Klaws, -1 AP, and a standard 2 Damage. could this be the age of the Blood Axe?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:31:24


Post by: little-killer


So i did a game today against mecanicus, just to see what we can do as orks, so no objectives, just extermination, i won.

Morkaunaut is pretty good, he left an ik with 1hp before dying just by himself, and the 9" for invu is quite large so you can stack as much boyz as you want.

30 boyz *3 with a weirdboy to teleport is quite good too, just he died turn 2 because sniper .

Tankbustas in trukk well, they got quite better, since trukk is not like one hit and explode, plus since you can tp troops, the ennemy is focusing on what can charge him.

Negative point now, the shokk attack gun useless as feth (well he died turn 2 so maybe i will test him again).

So some questions now, i want to play some stormboyz, but i don't find if they can still deepstrike, or they are like warbikers without the dakka and the save.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:32:09


Post by: gungo


Do you guys think the advanced cover rules will be standard play? It makes cover less generic However it really screws orks with the extra distance on charges through non-ruins. Especially kommandos


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:34:08


Post by: blaktoof


Played two games of 8th edition over the weekend at 1k points.

Here is what I took.

Patrol Detachment
2x Warboss with kustom shoota, power klaw, attack squig.
2x boys, 10boyz+1 nob. 1 big shoota
2 trukks with big shootas
2 x warbuggies with twin linked big shootas
2 deffdreads with 2 klaws and 2 rokkits each
2 kanz(one unit) with klaws and rokkits


First game was against GSC. Highlights- GSC went first, killes a dread with ambushing genestealers and metamorphs, put 5 wounds on a trukk, a wound on a kan and a couple wounds on a dred. Trukks had boys and warboss in them. They both got out and killed the stealers and mstamorphs. Game ended with a patriarch in assault with two of my trukks, near a warboss and a rockgrinder in the center. In opponents DZ were the buggies, kanz and a dread with 1 wound remaining. Patriarch kills both trukks and one blows up. D3 mortal wounds later to nearby units killed the patriarch, my wounded warboss, and the rockgrinder. This tabled the other player and left me with only the dread kanz and buggies left.

Second game.
Against khorne chaos army. Large fleshhound mob, bloodthirster, some cultists, dark apostle, and a large biker mob. I had some crazy assault rolls that swung the game. Like rolling box cars when needing to get at least an 11 to get a Boyz move to charge the blood thirster. Had a first turn assault from disembark, move, advance then charge from warboss ability. The blood thirster took the middle and sat there until the last turn when you managed to bring it down with my warlord warboss. There were some.epic fights here, in the end the bloodthirster killed 497 pts of my models and left one of the warboss with 2 wounds before going down. Mission was scouring, I held 2 objectives, the superior objective, had slay the warlord and line breaker. Opponent had one objective and first blood.

The kanz were underwhelming both games, by a lot. I used them mostly for assault with shots as they moved up table.

Warboss with Boyz in a trukk is pretty brutally amazing. 8"+d6+2d6(with reroll) threat range to get within 1" on the turn they disembark is no joke. 3" disembark +5" move is the 8". The advance move is the real game changer with that. It has an effective 3+d6 or average 6" better charge range than an blob of 30 boyz. That's like having a move of 11 instead of 5". Both games the trukk boys got a charge off turn one or two.

Shooting was underwhelming overall from everything, having assault weapons is nice but move with advance and shoot needs 6s for most ork units to hit..so I rarely hit. My entire army shooting the second game on turn one did 1 wound total.

Buggies were mostly ignored, second game they secured two objectives late game thanks to 14" move and d6" advance.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:40:20


Post by: JohnU


little-killer wrote:


So some questions now, i want to play some stormboyz, but i don't find if they can still deepstrike, or they are like warbikers without the dakka and the save.


They can't deepstrike, but they can advance and charge without needing a Boss nearby. They're also dirt cheap.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:46:32


Post by: GreatGranpapy


I'm still going to give Power Klaws a chance, a lot of my nobs are modeled with them after all.

How do you think combi-rokkits on nobs are? Stick some ammo runts on them and they can hit anything as well a a tankbusta, with 2 wounds and a 4+ to boot.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:50:14


Post by: little-killer


 JohnU wrote:
little-killer wrote:


So some questions now, i want to play some stormboyz, but i don't find if they can still deepstrike, or they are like warbikers without the dakka and the save.


They can't deepstrike, but they can advance and charge without needing a Boss nearby. They're also dirt cheap.


Fu ck, so i will go with weirdboyz and boyz, i got them and it's funnier. I don't want to buy thousands of stormboyz.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:50:28


Post by: Reecius


Hey guys, Davou asked me to pop in and answer some questions about Orks in 8th ed, which I am happy to do.

Just to alleviate some concerns, orks are bad ass, like, super good in 8th. In our games, they are very, very competitive.

You have mobility options, mortal wounds if you need them, great melee, morale control, and shooting, too.

Things are different than you may be used to but in general the classic list archetypes work quite well. You can go Speed Freaks, Kan Wall, horde, etc. and they work quite well.

Did anyone have any specific questions I will try to pop in from time to time to address them if that sounds good.

Oh, and feel free to join us for a live bat rep tomorrow at 5pm PST on our Twitch Channel. I will be playing Orks vs. Chaos: https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:57:37


Post by: JohnU


I think you mentioned in the stream that you also tested FW models, but didn't discuss them since you didn't have the books. You able to talk about that at all?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 21:59:15


Post by: JimOnMars


 Reecius wrote:
Did anyone have any specific questions I will try to pop in from time to time to address them if that sounds good.

Wow thanks, Reece. We just discovered that the 'ere we go re-roll is one OR both dice because of the definition of re-roll on p. 178. Can you confirm?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:04:43


Post by: Reecius


@JohnU

No, not yet, sorry =(

@JimOnMars

It is reroll failed charge rolls. I believe the definition on pg. 178 isn't meant to directly interact with Ere We Go in the way you present it, but I will see if we can confirm that. I see the logic, there.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:12:06


Post by: davou


 Reecius wrote:
Hey guys, Davou asked me to pop in and answer some questions about Orks in 8th ed, which I am happy to do.

Did anyone have any specific questions I will try to pop in from time to time to address them if that sounds good.



Thanks bro!

Transports Feel pretty expencive, how do trukks feel when the new survivability is considered?

How do orks deal with lists that can cheaply screen against assaults screen with chaff (kroot, cultists or grots?)


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:13:18


Post by: gungo


Another odd debate was someone made the claim a unit of 20+ Models gains an extra attack through the new rules. As unit sizes are determined during the building stage is this ability permanent regardless of casualties? There are now abilities that restore models up to its original unit size for example


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:20:56


Post by: Nazrak


 Reecius wrote:

Did anyone have any specific questions I will try to pop in from time to time to address them if that sounds good.

Cheers for the offer! I'm pretty excited to get stuck in with my boyz, but there are a couple of things I wonder if you could give me some insight into.
First, where has my Ardboyz' armour gone? It seems that armour upgrades are a thing of the past in 8th, and I'm aware there isn't *technically* an Ardboyz kit, but with regard to the former, why not just make them a separate unit datasheet, and second, there aren't painboy/mek biker models either, and they made it in. I can't imagine I'm the only Ork player out there who's ploughed the time and effort into assembling boyz in using all the most heavily armoured bitz from the various kits, so I'm pretty disappointed these guys haven't made it into the index.

Second, the way the <clan> keywords work seems to penalise warbands comprising Orks from more than one clan. I get why this is the case with, for example, space marines' <chapter> keywords, in order to avoid stacked buffing shenanigans, but it seems a bit at odds with the fact that, in the background and on the table, Ork warbands/tribes have frequently been presented as being composed of members of multiple clans. It seems the way these keywords work actively encourages less flavourful warbands, so I was wondering if you were able to offer any insight into the thinking behind this.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of questions thrown your way, but as an Ork player who's been with the army throughout its various ups and downs ever since the Rogue Trader days, I'd be chuffed as heck if you could find the time to respond!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:43:01


Post by: Pedroig


 Reecius wrote:
@JohnU

No, not yet, sorry =(

@JimOnMars

It is reroll failed charge rolls. I believe the definition on pg. 178 isn't meant to directly interact with Ere We Go in the way you present it, but I will see if we can confirm that. I see the logic, there.


Just remember only two types of logic roun' 'ere, Choppa and Big Choppa!



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:43:13


Post by: Reecius


Yo! Happy to help.

Transports are more expensive than you are used to but generally are way harder to take out, are faster (generally) and serve different purposes.

Some armies use LOTS of transports, some don't. It really depends on the interaction between the unit and the transport.

I have run all Trukk armies many times, it totally works as Ork Boyz are so much better. The Trukk (and always take the Wreckin Ball!) absorbs overwatch by charging first, the Boyz come in after.

However, transports can be really swingy. As damage has big ranges of variability (lascannon may do 1 damage, may do 6) they sometimes melt instantly and sometimes just wade through damage all game, it's hard to predict.

Generally though, I love my Trukk Boyz. Typically I jam up, lose a few, and then charge in with enough Boyz to wreck face. One game though, Frankie obliterated my in my own deployment zone and 5 of 6 Trukks rolled the dreaded 6, exploded, then did mortal wounds to everyone, lolol. Learned my lesson on deploying too close to one another but all those explodes results are not common.

Battlewagons are amazing. The Deff Rolla makes them actually very good in melee (as silly as that sounds) and are quite durable. I often put shooting units in them like Lootas or Tank Bustas as they are protected but can move into shooting range. Leave them Open Topped for that, obviously.

Orks do great vs. Screens. They have the tools to melt them. Burna Boyz in a Trukk or Battlewagon, Lootas, Shota Boyz (combo them with Da Jump!), etc. And, just charging them, honestly. They have so many attacks they cut through screen units like Cultists and Conscripts quite easily.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:50:24


Post by: JohnU


Big Choppa vs Klaw. Is the flat 2 damage from the BC generally sufficient for most squads. I feel like there's a lot more points to spread around if I don't have to give PKs to all my Nobs.


Also slightly unrelated but do you guys have dimensions for your ITC Ork terrain buildings? I need a couple more LOS blocking pieces for my board.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:53:24


Post by: Reecius


@Gungo

Current unit size.

@Nazrak

Not a problem, I am happy to help! It's a great day for Ork players =)

'Ard Boyz, not sure why they're not in there, honestly. Maybe in the Codex? The indexes are to give rules for people to get rolling, as GW has stated, not really comprehensive rule sets.

The Clan Keywords will probably make more sense as time goes by. And you can take a mixed Ork army, just have 1 detachment by say, Goffs, another Bad Moons, etc. The Clans stick together in their detachment and buff each other, but still work together in the larger army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Pedroig,

lol, nice.

@JohnU

I prefer the Big Choppa to the Klaw, now. The Klaw is awesome on Warbosses, etc.

The Ork ITC Terrain is quite big, which peice were you curious about?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 22:59:03


Post by: JohnU


I'll probably do one each of the Hall, Barracks, and Stronghold, but if you can give me a general idea of the size of the Great Hall I can figure out the rest.

Thanks!

Edit: To stay relevant to the thread. Did you find yourself with any preference as far as backfield harrassers go? (Koptas,Trakks, Kommandos, etc)


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 23:37:17


Post by: Reecius


The Orc Great Hall is has a roughly 11" by 10" footprint. It's really big! Great for blocking LoS in 8th ed (which is mega important).

I like them all, but my favorite was Skorchas! They can outflank and are tough little buggers.

My one complaint with orks in 8th is their lack of deployment options. But, all things considered, that is a minor complaint.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 23:40:23


Post by: GreatGranpapy


 Reecius wrote:
The Orc Great Hall


Orc Great Hall you say?




Warcraft 3 aside, would you suggest keeping on foot if there are a large amount of boyz? I don't really know what to do with my couple of trukks and my nob and meganob squad if I want them to benefit from auras..


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 23:50:06


Post by: Reecius


Haha, that may or may not have been an inspiration in the name =P

And you can run mixed for sure, it does not have to be all or nothing anymore as vehicles have the same stats as monsters as infantry, etc.

Having some Boyz in trukks to get upfield and run interference is great, while mobs of boyz come in behind.

All foot Orks totally works too as your auras make you damn tough. With a 5++ and a 6+ FnP, the Boyz can walk through damage like nothing. Just be sure to keep a Warboss or two nearby to avoid morale damage (they're cheap).


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 23:56:32


Post by: JohnU


That'll work quite nicely. Thank you sir, got my order in.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/05 23:59:28


Post by: Reecius


Hey, thank you for your business!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 00:33:03


Post by: TheThievingMick


Reece!

First, thanks for all your team's work in making 8th edition. I'm pretty excited to finally be getting into Warhammer with the new edition.

How do you tend to build your Kan Walls at 2k? How much of each walker do you take and what supports them well?

For Trukk lists, how many trukks of boyz do you tend to take in a 2k list? What support units do you take? Do the aura units matter as much (Painboys and Waagh banners)?

Lastly, how useful are Power Stabba Nobz in the new edition? Can they find a home in some lists? What list archetypes lend themselves well to them?

Thanks!



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 00:36:55


Post by: bigdark


@Reecius
Glad to have you here - let's talk Walkers.
You've praised the Stompa - what did you do or enjoy about using the Stompa? How did you make it work, what did you fill it with, what did you surround it with?
The Orkanauts - Mork, Gork, one of each, or multiples of one type? The Gorkanaut looks like the choice for the risk averse crowd with no gets hot nor high saves and the Morkanaut offers a giant bubble but risks killing itself. What was your favorite way to put them to use?
And Deff Dreads! Were they better body guards for larger walkers or did you send them out on their own with their own screen crew? 2 or 4 Klaws? And what for ranged?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 00:42:07


Post by: gungo


@reecius is it intended for a bomb squig to be embarked on something like the firestorm redoubt and fire all the emplaced weapons on a bs2+


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 02:00:37


Post by: Nazrak


 Reecius wrote:
@Gungo

Current unit size.

@Nazrak

Not a problem, I am happy to help! It's a great day for Ork players =)

'Ard Boyz, not sure why they're not in there, honestly. Maybe in the Codex? The indexes are to give rules for people to get rolling, as GW has stated, not really comprehensive rule sets.

The Clan Keywords will probably make more sense as time goes by. And you can take a mixed Ork army, just have 1 detachment by say, Goffs, another Bad Moons, etc. The Clans stick together in their detachment and buff each other, but still work together in the larger army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Pedroig,

lol, nice.

@JohnU

I prefer the Big Choppa to the Klaw, now. The Klaw is awesome on Warbosses, etc.

The Ork ITC Terrain is quite big, which peice were you curious about?

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my grumbles! Fingers crossed the Ardboyz make a return soon. I suspected there might be some more to come on the Clans down the line; I'll just have to work out how to get my lads from different clans to play nicely in the meantime.

Feeling vindicated in my decision to give various nobz in my warband big chollas now. Although to be honest, I never thought they were as much of a waste of time as some would have had it previously.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 02:19:24


Post by: Novelist47


Nobz have the rule 'Keepin' Order', but I'm more interested in the Nobz with Waaagh Banner. They're half the points of the nob squad, and they also have that rule.

Would you voluntarily purchase a unit just for that ability? 1/6 chance that things don't die for 75 points is a pretty steep investment. For 75 points you could invest in a lot better things. You need to save units equivalent to 75 points or more to make up the points.

I feel that Waaagh Banner orks are a hit and a massive miss. It being in a regular nob squad could have the potential to be an invaluable anchor for green tide boyz.

Thoughts on the competitiveness of this new rule welcome.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:09:49


Post by: Fenris-77


You realize that the Waagh Banner Nob is a Character right? So he can't be shot unless etc etc. I don't see the hit ans miss of that. +1th for units w/in 6" is easily worth the points, IMO anyway.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:16:11


Post by: davou


wait, are boss nobs characters? can they make a heroic intervention move for free?!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:18:29


Post by: JimOnMars


nope. "Sergeants" are not characters. Characters are the "ICs" of 8th.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:20:04


Post by: Fenris-77


 davou wrote:
wait, are boss nobs characters? can they make a heroic intervention move for free?!
Not that I've seen, only the Waagh Banner Nob. I'm not even sure what Orks are supposed to do about the Boss Nob in units. I think the idea was for orks to pay Nob price for that model (maybe?), but that's really not how the rules are written, at least not the points list part, where there's no entry for 'Boss Nob' and the Nob entry reads 3-10 models. Or maybe it's priced into the Ork Unit IDK.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:22:12


Post by: fe40k


@gungo @reecius Are you sure about that it's current size for the mob, instead of just starting size?

I could see it going either way, but the wording is different than the Killa Kan wording, which is why I ask. It would also be a huge nerf to the mob; no benefit unless you take 30 models, and even then, lose 10 and it's cancelled.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 03:55:54


Post by: Dendarien


What are everyone's thoughts on warbosses? Multiple, cheap ones to spread out the WAAAGH aura?

Also @ Reecius: I absolutely love bikerz, but the loss of the smoke cloud seems to really hurt their durability. How did you find them in test games?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 04:03:49


Post by: Frothmog


 Reecius wrote:
Hey guys, Davou asked me to pop in and answer some questions about Orks in 8th ed, which I am happy to do.

Just to alleviate some concerns, orks are bad ass, like, super good in 8th. In our games, they are very, very competitive.

You have mobility options, mortal wounds if you need them, great melee, morale control, and shooting, too.

Things are different than you may be used to but in general the classic list archetypes work quite well. You can go Speed Freaks, Kan Wall, horde, etc. and they work quite well.

Did anyone have any specific questions I will try to pop in from time to time to address them if that sounds good.

Oh, and feel free to join us for a live bat rep tomorrow at 5pm PST on our Twitch Channel. I will be playing Orks vs. Chaos: https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv


So 'ard boyz were not expected to disappear? I hope they come back... I have 3 squads of 30 of them. Would like to use them as 'ard boyz since the new cover for us basically means large mobs probably never have cover unless the terrain piece is huge.

When I first read the rules for KFF and painboy I thought the rules were similar, but now I look at them and I think the big difference is that for the KFF units have to be wholly inside the 9", which isn't a big problem since we can now clump up, but the painboy says when a unit within 3" loses a wound that the painboy could prevent it. It doesn't say the unit needs to be entirely within that range, and in fact doesn't say the model needs to be either. So lets say a model in a unit that isn't within 3" of the painboy is the one selected to take the wound, but the unit does have models within 3 inches of the painboy, is that ok to roll the save for that boy who is probably at the back and is taking the wound so as not to remove from the front?

Also, is the inability to take a power klaw on the waaagh banner nob a mistake given that the only banner nob they sell has a cybork power klaw/fist? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Ork-Nob-with-Waaagh-Banner It just so happens that my other banner nobs all had power klaws also because they are the older metal ones that held the banner in one hand and could put a klaw on the other arm.




Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 04:08:34


Post by: Vankraken


@reecius it seems like Standard Nobz and Gitz are in some way designed to utilize ammo runts at bullet sponges when needed to soak big hits (grab a runt and throw him in front of a krak missile). Also it seems ammo runts can add to the unit size for Mob Rule which when combined with runts not counting for purposes of casualties taken makes Nobz/Gitz really resilient to morale issues. Is this the case or is wound allocation onto runts more difficult and in general how well do foot Nobz and Flash Gitz play in 8th?

Also for Kanz it seems the mighty gortzooka isn't quite as mighty given the lack of any relentless on vehicles and wounding needing double the strenght vs toughness to wound on 2s. Are the zookas a lost cause or do they still resemble the wound firehose that they use to be? Also do lots of solo kanz or big units of them tend to work better?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 04:34:28


Post by: gungo


Question does anyone know which plastic set I need for the forgeworld kommando upgrade set. Hopefully it's basic boys as I have an extra sprue of those from shadowwar armeggedon.

Also ya the flashgits having 10 ablative ammorunt wounds and a full squad of 20 for mob rules is pretty crazy.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 06:14:47


Post by: Vitali Advenil


 Vankraken wrote:


Also for Kanz it seems the mighty gortzooka isn't quite as mighty given the lack of any relentless on vehicles and wounding needing double the strenght vs toughness to wound on 2s. Are the zookas a lost cause or do they still resemble the wound firehose that they use to be? Also do lots of solo kanz or big units of them tend to work better?


That's what I'm wondering. I actually bought extra grotzooka bits just because of how good they are, generally. I'm not as sure, now, since I mostly relied on the templates so they'd hit. I might just go with Big Shootas and Rokkits, now- time will tell. Also, solo kanz probably aren't worth it. Even with all the vehicle buffs, they're still really fragile. I'd have multiple units of 3.

What I'm most curious about is powerklaws vs big choppas, now. Powerklaws are S12 on warbosses, which is ridiculous, but it's at -1 to hit and will be extreme overkill for pretty much any infantry. Big choppas will be S8, which is getting the 2+ on MEQs. And, of course, there's the points issue. I definitely think there is going to be more of a mix, now. I'm definitely going to model a warboss with a Big Choppa, but PKs on nobz no longer seems as necessary as it used to.



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 06:17:42


Post by: Jidmah


fe40k wrote:
@gungo @reecius Are you sure about that it's current size for the mob, instead of just starting size?

I could see it going either way, but the wording is different than the Killa Kan wording, which is why I ask. It would also be a huge nerf to the mob; no benefit unless you take 30 models, and even then, lose 10 and it's cancelled.


When you put your boyz into a battlewagon, you are pretty unlikely to lose one before they disembark, so you'd have that +1 attack on the charge them as well. Also note that there is almost no downside fielding mobs of 30 now, as templates and blasts are gone.

Otherwise, it's pretty much the theme of the ork army - the less orks the weaker they get. However, your opponent would have to take all your mobs below 20 to remove the buff from them, which means that he is splitting fire between units instead of wiping one out.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 06:28:12


Post by: zend


It's really weird that the Nob with WAAAAGH Banner can't make any loadout changes. Not even a big choppa. His banner is invaluable to Power Klaw wielders and blobs of infantry though.

Played a casual test match just to get a feel for the rules and a few units, ran 1600pts Outrider detachment.
Today I learned:

Painboy's healing is awesome since it doesn't prevent charging nor healing someone who is already in combat. Healed a Warboss that took 4 wounds from Draigo for a full D3 wounds, then charged Draigo with the Painboy and finished him off in the second round of combat The 5" maximum move stipulation doesn't hurt at all if he stays the people he'll be healing/providing invulns for anyways.

Stormboyz are awesome. Brought a blob of thirty and managed to keep two land raiders from doing much by multicharging. Their options were to fall back or disembark, and my friend opted to fall back a couple turns in a row. I was dumb and didn't bring Zagstruck or even just a Boss Nob with a klaw though so they kinda just sat there until some Paladins and Voldus got out and had their way with the unit.

Stikkbombs are hilarious when you have a large blob now that they're D6 shooting weapons.

EDIT: Nevermind, reread the Relic rules. My friend cheated, but oh well.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 06:30:18


Post by: Vitali Advenil


 Jidmah wrote:
fe40k wrote:
@gungo @reecius Are you sure about that it's current size for the mob, instead of just starting size?

I could see it going either way, but the wording is different than the Killa Kan wording, which is why I ask. It would also be a huge nerf to the mob; no benefit unless you take 30 models, and even then, lose 10 and it's cancelled.


When you put your boyz into a battlewagon, you are pretty unlikely to lose one before they disembark, so you'd have that +1 attack on the charge them as well. Also note that there is almost no downside fielding mobs of 30 now, as templates and blasts are gone.

Otherwise, it's pretty much the theme of the ork army - the less orks the weaker they get. However, your opponent would have to take all your mobs below 20 to remove the buff from them, which means that he is splitting fire between units instead of wiping one out.


This is what I'm most excited about trying. Footslogging simply didn't work in 7th because models were removed from the front. Now that we can use single HQs to spread buffs between multiple squads, I'm really tempted to try breaking out a footslogging list again. It still probably won't be as good as a vehicle list, but it might at least be usable, now.

All I know is I'm gonna need more orks.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 06:59:44


Post by: Jidmah


I also have a question for reece:

Do you feel the stompa is worth almost 1000 points?
If so, what is it better at than the same amount of points in nauts or deff dreads?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 07:13:39


Post by: GreenPlum


I've yet to read the Orky Index, but based on what I've heard so far: is it true you can mix choppa and shoota boyz in one unit? If so can shoota boyz fight in close combat? I figure they are exchanging their hand weapons for shoota - can it be used in the Fight phase?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 08:10:19


Post by: koooaei




Hey. Don't have much exp with 8-th so far - just played a single game - but i've got some questions.

- What do you think is the new niche for meganobz? Their damage has gone down significantly compared to their 7-th counterparts and their price skyrocketed! The good thing though is that you can footslog them if you want to. 4+ advance is ok. But just to point out, their damage vs meq has gone 60% down point-to point. A single MAN statistically chops down 1 marine. And i used them to deal with superheavies like knights. But now it doesn't seem to be the case any more.
When previously 5 bully boyz with 2 pairs of killsaws (220) in a trukk (35), 255 total, reliably downed a knight on the charge - statistically dealing 6+ hp of damage with killsaws alone, now a unit of 5 with 2 pairs of killsaws is 286 + 88 min for a trukk, 374 total, deal around 10 wounds to a knight. That's less than half. Sure, the knight has also gone up in price but...what's the purpose of manz? Their durability is deceptive as opponents no longer need troops and can easilly spam heavy multiple-damage weapons with all this new detachments. This remains to be seen, for sure, but i'm starting to regret having bought 15 of those at the end of 7-th.

- Burnas. You hinted us they'd be great with their shooting in the article. d3 shots...is nothing to write home about. You need 3 burnas to kill a single marine in the open and 6 in cover. They don't loose this -2 ap in mellee though, so it's a plus. But i'd rather have nobz for the price. Much more durable, choppier in mellee. Shooting...still doesn't do that much.

- Talking about cover in general. I really dislike how it works now. Unless you're playing on mordheim maps there's no way you get cover for anything trying to move across the board. Especially sad with kommandoes that are not likely to get to use their cover special rule as they'll never actually get cover if they want to attack something and not just get used as point-holders...pretty much the same way they've been used in 7-th. Can fish for that charge though. ~40% chance to charge is ok - especially if you get multiple 45 pt squads with nobz and 0 pt burnas. So, kommandoes are fine i guess. And the defenders get all the benefits without problems. My first game was vs a 25- devastator + cap + termie list where everything deployed in one woods and got 2+ armor. My whole army's shooting - and i had mek gunz, multiple squads of shootaboyz, burnas and k-skorchas could only kill 1-2 marines per turn.
All in all: Cover - me dislikes! Doesn't do anything good for boyz any more.

- Do stormboyz still suffer casualties for run+charge if there's a boss around?

- The main question. Why the hell your youtube channel has so few subscribers? You guyz are a lot of fun.

btw, my second game is going to be vs ~70 ig heavy weapon teams. Starting to dislike 8-th building method and some pricings. A 2-wound ig heavy team is 4 pts and a heavy bolter is 8. That's 12 pts - The exact same amount a bigshoota boy costs. Well, at least that's what i'm told. Maybe there's some mistake. Hope so.

Nah, that's not a mistake. HWT also still have a lazgun.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 10:58:34


Post by: Cleatus


Hmmm, I might be missing it, but I don't see that Nobz have the ability to take a Power Stabba? It's not included as standard equipment, or listed on the Choppy Weapons list. Hopefully this will be addressed in a FAQ, or in the Orks codex when it comes out.

(EDIT: Nevermind, yes, it's there.)

Very amused with the Gretchin's "Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers". BS 3+ Grots! haha...


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 11:03:43


Post by: little-killer


Do you really think the sak is worth the cost? i mean it's heavy d6 and cost 100 points, plus unlike before, you can't add +1 bs for 5 point.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 11:08:24


Post by: koooaei


Only nob squads can take power stabbas. Btw, they get 50% increased damage vs meq over a choppa.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 11:48:10


Post by: Solar Shock


koooaei wrote:

- Burnas. You hinted us they'd be great with their shooting in the article. d3 shots...is nothing to write home about. You need 3 burnas to kill a single marine in the open and 6 in cover. They don't loose this -2 ap in mellee though, so it's a plus. But i'd rather have nobz for the price. Much more durable, choppier in mellee. Shooting...still doesn't do that much.


I was wondering this. I mean as you said, d3 shots. In comparison to old flamers maybe getting 3-4 standard, and more if you positioned well. Now there is almost no reason. You dont ignore cover. So anyone in cover still gets a +1 (that is right yeh?). They have no AP modifier. Str 4, so still wounding on 4s most likely, and 5's for T5+. So a squad of 5, average 7.5 hits. which is quite a lot less than what they could do before. I suppose though, averages aren't best. with a d3, you still have a 2/3 chance of doing 10 or 15 hits. And they do have the AP in combat.

I dont have the points for burnas at hand, but as you mentioned, kommandos get 2 burnas free. they are ~49 points or something. I have a feeling kommandos will be one of our go to units and i have a few thoughts on that in a minute. What seems to hurt burnas compared to the rest of our army is that if burna's are supposed to cut through chaff, they just dont seem to have the weight of shooting. A charging equivalent unit of boyz would probably be better at cutting through chaff. Secondly, if for example you were only able to get within just 8" for your burnas and you do kill some chaff. If the enemy plays it right and takes from the front your going to hurt your charge range. That unit then gets overwatch anyway. Im not sure. I loved burna models and I had hoped they would do a few more hits. We will have to see. Maybe they will be effective for pilling wounds onto stuff like MCs. As you'll still get to charge after with your AP weapons, you hit first, and theres no chance of you removing models to prevent you charging.



- Talking about cover in general. I really dislike how it works now. Unless you're playing on mordheim maps there's no way you get cover for anything trying to move across the board. Especially sad with kommandoes that are not likely to get to use their cover special rule as they'll never actually get cover if they want to attack something and not just get used as point-holders...pretty much the same way they've been used in 7-th. Can fish for that charge though. ~40% chance to charge is ok - especially if you get multiple 45 pt squads with nobz and 0 pt burnas. So, kommandoes are fine i guess. And the defenders get all the benefits without problems. My first game was vs a 25- devastator + cap + termie list where everything deployed in one woods and got 2+ armor. My whole army's shooting - and i had mek gunz, multiple squads of shootaboyz, burnas and k-skorchas could only kill 1-2 marines per turn.
All in all: Cover - me dislikes! Doesn't do anything good for boyz any more.


OK ive found the advanced rules. So; You lose 2" when charging through woods/craters etc... BUT not ruins.
Hmm this is annoying to say the least. I mean it is the advanced rules, and we will have to see how it is decided to be played. But it certainly does make the idea of charging into cover a lot more ugly. So the defenders get +1 save, reduced charge range to whoever charges (including defenders if they charge, as they are on the terrain base too).

Do infantry still provide cover to infantry behind?
One niche thing I thought about was that bringing multiple min kommando's units. At the end of your movement phase (say you have a footslogging list) you can elect to place your min kommando's units directly in front (9" rule is the only thing to be aware of). So you have a cheap 5 man chaff unit that can pretty much pop up anywhere, they provide cover saves to those behind (?), they have 2 burnas as overwatch deterrents and AP weapons. And with it always being at the end of your movement phase, you are guaranteed to be able to plan it. Unlike with the old DS where you would scatter, run etc...



btw, my second game is going to be vs ~70 ig heavy weapon teams. Starting to dislike 8-th building method and some pricings. A 2-wound ig heavy team is 4 pts and a heavy bolter is 8. That's 12 pts - The exact same amount a bigshoota boy costs. Well, at least that's what i'm told. Maybe there's some mistake. Hope so.

Nah, that's not a mistake. HWT also still have a lazgun.

Yeh I forsee some cheesy stuff coming in with the new formations. Will just have to see how it plays out. As the argument is they are available to all. So say the meta becomes this plasma dude spam. You'd just run a tide and watch the horror on their face as they realise they literally cant shoot enough to kill you. We will see.

little-killer wrote:Do you really think the sak is worth the cost? i mean it's heavy d6 and cost 100 points, plus unlike before, you can't add +1 bs for 5 point.

Nope, D6, so even with a 6, you only hit with 2 shots. and its 2D6 str. Seems wayyyyyy too random now. Before the blast meant you could reliably at least hit stuff and re-roll for scatter. Or get a fun effect. Which you get none of now.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 12:07:33


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...

Also.. I keep seeing that komandos get free burnas.. where is everyone seeing this? Why dont they have to pay the points for them?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 12:10:58


Post by: davou


 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...


because you can't spam groups of twenty flamers

20d6 auto hits is pretty obnoxious, particularly when you get to put them in a wagon and spent the game hiting people with it


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 12:17:08


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


But in 7th if you had 5-6 under the template you had 20d6 auto hits. and they could be chilling in a wagon o_O

Or am I remembering it wrong? I have only played like 2-3 games in 7th. I hoped on board the sigmar train and have had a load of fun. Really excited about 8th though.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 12:17:40


Post by: JohnU


gungo wrote:
@reecius is it intended for a bomb squig to be embarked on something like the firestorm redoubt and fire all the emplaced weapons on a bs2+


So I was looking at this more (because I was going to do it myself) and I couldn't find anything in the rules for Fortifications or in Stronghold Assault where manning the guns lets you use the shooters BS, only that the gun can target something besides the closest target. I'll still try it out, but I'm pretty disappointed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
Question does anyone know which plastic set I need for the forgeworld kommando upgrade set. Hopefully it's basic boys as I have an extra sprue of those from shadowwar armeggedon.


Yeah those are definitely regular slugga boys pictured on the FW site. Not sure about the Nob though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
zend wrote:


Stikkbombs are hilarious when you have a large blob now that they're D6 shooting weapons.


Unfortunately the grenade rules only let one model in a unit throw a grenade during shooting. I really wanted this to be a thing too when I first saw the rules.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 12:53:53


Post by: Anpu-adom


Thanks for being in here, Reece.

Question: Just to be clear, meks can't repair when embarked... correct?

So, I'm looking at my Dread Mob:

If you combine a Battalion and a Spearhead detachments you get:
3+3+1 - 7 CP
3-5 HQ
3-9 Troop
0-8 Elite
0-5 Fast Attack
3-9 Heavy Support
0-4 Flyers

Seems like a great start. Based on what I already have:

3 Units of Boyz in Trukks
1 Unit of 2 Deff Dreads
2 Units of 5 Killa Kans

I'd need a minimum of 3 HQ
Thinking 1-2 Warbosses on Bikes
Thinking 1-2 Big Mek on Bikes



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 13:38:41


Post by: Jidmah


gungo wrote:
Question does anyone know which plastic set I need for the forgeworld kommando upgrade set. Hopefully it's basic boys as I have an extra sprue of those from shadowwar armeggedon.


The ork models from the boyz sprues or the loota/burna box work, though the first one is more cost efficient.

With a bit of green stuff, you can also make AOBR boyz work.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:03:10


Post by: Jambles


Great to see Reece chiming in! Thanks for the tips and thoughts! I really need to get some stormboyz and buggies...

Played my first game with Orks against the Thousand Sons, and it was a doozy. My takeaways were:
-Cover is not so great for Orks, whereas on the other side of the table my opponent was rolling mostly 2+ saves. Without a good save to start with, cover isn't doing much for you in this edition.
-Sorcerer/psyker spam is going to be a big deal in the meta going forward IMO. The ability to put out a large number of mortal wounds a turn is devastating. Hiding in combat won't save you from psykers, either! My nobz and trukkz took a real beating from those units.
-Nobz are stellar. I leaned on them heavily last edition for fluff reasons but now they've been significantly improved so I'm quite pleased. The cost feels far more worth it now, and even with just a few big choppas and a couple of characters to support the unit, they get really scary.



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:05:36


Post by: Cleatus


 koooaei wrote:
Only nob squads can take power stabbas. Btw, they get 50% increased damage vs meq over a choppa.


Yes, I understand that. The problem is that the unit entry for Nobz does not have a permission clause that grants them the ability to swap out Choppas for Power Stabbas. It should have something like, "Nobz or Boss Nobz may exchange their Choppas for Power Stabbas". Or include Power Stabbas on the Choppy Weapons list. Seems like an oversight. I'm sure people will just house rule it, so not a big deal for non-competitive games.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see it now. Cool.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:05:53


Post by: v0iddrgn


I have a question, Reece. I was wondering if Flash Gitz suffer a -1 to their BS when embarked on a moving Battlewagon? The Battlewagon has the Mobile Fortress rule stating it doesn't suffer the penalty for moving and Open Topped states that the embarked unit acts just like the Battlewagon when it comes to various scenarios. Thanks for you help with this question.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:15:46


Post by: davou


 Cleatus wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Only nob squads can take power stabbas. Btw, they get 50% increased damage vs meq over a choppa.


Yes, I understand that. The problem is that the unit entry for Nobz does not have a permission clause that grants them the ability to swap out Choppas for Power Stabbas. It should have something like, "Nobz or Boss Nobz may exchange their Choppas for Power Stabbas". Or include Power Stabbas on the Choppy Weapons list. Seems like an oversight. I'm sure people will just house rule it, so not a big deal for non-competitive games.


eh, yes it does. It specifically lists powa stabba as an option to replace the choppa for any nob. Further it says you can take from the choppy list


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:23:37


Post by: JimOnMars


 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...

Also.. I keep seeing that komandos get free burnas.. where is everyone seeing this? Why dont they have to pay the points for them?


Look at the index. Burnas (the model) are 14 and carry a burna (the weapon) for zero. It is different than tankbustsas, who are 5 for the model and pay 12 for the rokkit. Why GW did it this way is beyond me.

So any time you take a burna (weapon) it's free. I think it's a mistake; expect it to be corrected next year at the latest.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:25:23


Post by: little-killer


 JimOnMars wrote:
 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...

Also.. I keep seeing that komandos get free burnas.. where is everyone seeing this? Why dont they have to pay the points for them?


Look at the index. Burnas (the model) are 14 and carry a burna (the weapon) for zero. It is different than tankbustsas, who are 5 for the model and pay 12 for the rokkit. Why GW did it this way is beyond me.

So any time you take a burna (weapon) it's free. I think it's a mistake; expect it to be corrected next year at the latest.

Yeah but when you got on the field you can't use them turn 1 since you are at 9" and it's 8".


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:42:07


Post by: Rismonite


For those lucky few who are already playing;

-I am excited to hear the Deff Rolla is back. Are any of the shooting options viable on the Battlewagon? Is there any reason to take a wrecking ball or grabbin klaw if I already have a Deff Rolla?

-I have always wanted to run Nobz, what size units should I be organizing units in? I am sort of generating a to do list to put together since most of my Nobz are half assembled. Is the Combi-Skorcha a win? What bit are we even using for a power stabba(stikka?), and what weaponz are we using in Nobz squads?

-I have always wanted to bring some Mekz with KMB for thematic reasons not relevant to tactics. Hearing that output numbers on Burna are bad already has me thinking that Burnas and Mekz with KMB are turning up lame. Shelve this idea for now?

-Is the Gorkanaught living up to the hype?

-Killa Kanz, I may likely be running Orkz in vehicles but are the Kanz surviving long enough to turn a positive points output from shooting. Which weapons are looking good on them right now soo far?

-Big Mek with SAG, I have two of these but don't play with them. I heard the table is gone and the SAG is hitting hard. Is sticking one or two of these in the back behind some objective holders looking successful?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:51:51


Post by: davou


 Rismonite wrote:
Is there any reason to take a wrecking ball or grabbin klaw if I already have a Deff Rolla?


Certainly dont; the deffrolla is better in all ways. except cost.

Save the balls for trukks, the rollas for wagons.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 14:56:00


Post by: Cleatus


 davou wrote:
 Cleatus wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Only nob squads can take power stabbas. Btw, they get 50% increased damage vs meq over a choppa.


Yes, I understand that. The problem is that the unit entry for Nobz does not have a permission clause that grants them the ability to swap out Choppas for Power Stabbas. It should have something like, "Nobz or Boss Nobz may exchange their Choppas for Power Stabbas". Or include Power Stabbas on the Choppy Weapons list. Seems like an oversight. I'm sure people will just house rule it, so not a big deal for non-competitive games.


eh, yes it does. It specifically lists powa stabba as an option to replace the choppa for any nob. Further it says you can take from the choppy list


I stand corrected. I see it now.
"Any model may replace its choppa with a killsaw, power stabba or one item from the Choppy Weapons list."
I'm having trouble with this new format and the syntax of some of these unit entries. Or I'm getting old and need new glasses.

Anyway, back to the WAAAAGH!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 15:15:50


Post by: gungo


 JimOnMars wrote:
 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...

Also.. I keep seeing that komandos get free burnas.. where is everyone seeing this? Why dont they have to pay the points for them?


Look at the index. Burnas (the model) are 14 and carry a burna (the weapon) for zero. It is different than tankbustsas, who are 5 for the model and pay 12 for the rokkit. Why GW did it this way is beyond me.

So any time you take a burna (weapon) it's free. I think it's a mistake; expect it to be corrected next year at the latest.

I hope the fix is to give burnas a special rule to "ignore cover" saves to make them better then kommandos because if the fix is to make burnas 9 points it would just make burnas and kommandos worse. Orks can use a short range unit that removes cover since 2+ save marines are a real thing.

Furthermore does anyone know which is better vs MEQ (ignoring range) mathematically is a rokkit at str8 wounding on 2+ and ap-2 and 3 damage better then a pair of rokkit pistols that are 2x str7 wounding on a 3+ and ap-2 and doing d3 damage? Ok seems like pistols are slightly more damage although not a huge amount but it's spread out in average of 2 damage each hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
little-killer wrote:
 JimOnMars wrote:
 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I wonder why flamers got d6 hits and burnas got d3...

Also.. I keep seeing that komandos get free burnas.. where is everyone seeing this? Why dont they have to pay the points for them?


Look at the index. Burnas (the model) are 14 and carry a burna (the weapon) for zero. It is different than tankbustsas, who are 5 for the model and pay 12 for the rokkit. Why GW did it this way is beyond me.

So any time you take a burna (weapon) it's free. I think it's a mistake; expect it to be corrected next year at the latest.

Yeah but when you got on the field you can't use them turn 1 since you are at 9" and it's 8".
honestly for kommandos who want to charge turn 1 and tie up shooty units it doesn't matter as burnas are one of the best melee weapons for basic boys. Also people tend to get the rules for cover confused. Charging into or out of cover reducing the charge range is an advanced rule and not part of the core rules. If the advanced rules are not used kommandos are excellent.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 15:24:38


Post by: davou


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77HZpu6v0OA

8th ed video batrep - Orks vs BA


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 15:57:08


Post by: DaisyWondercow


While we're talking about Kommandos, it took me a while to notice but they actually have a 6" move!

That combined with 4+ saves in cover and I actually really like them. Keeping them off the board makes for a flexible unit that can "deepstrike" where's it needed. Making a big charge? Boom, 10 more boyz. Opponent rushing to cover? Boom, filled with orks. Jetpacks jumping away? Boom, we're already behind you.

Unrelated rules questions-
Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?

-Killa Kanz, I may likely be running Orkz in vehicles but are the Kanz surviving long enough to turn a positive points output from shooting. Which weapons are looking good on them right now soo far?


I ran a unit of three, and they just got rocked due to leadership- LD6 is risky on units that expensive. But rokkits hitting on 4+ is great!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 16:09:53


Post by: davou


 DaisyWondercow wrote:

Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?


Yes to both!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 16:32:33


Post by: DaisyWondercow


 davou wrote:
 DaisyWondercow wrote:

Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?


Yes to both!


Is that just us ork players using our gestalt psychic belief field to make it so? Or do we have some solid intel on that? Because reading it, I feel like it could go either way.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 17:08:39


Post by: gungo


 DaisyWondercow wrote:
 davou wrote:
 DaisyWondercow wrote:

Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?


Yes to both!


Is that just us ork players using our gestalt psychic belief field to make it so? Or do we have some solid intel on that? Because reading it, I feel like it could go either way.

The first question sounds like the entire point of mob rules.
The second question should work that way becuase of the open top transport rules that state occupants can fire following all normal rules for the vehicle.

What do people think of this list. I have 95% of the models for it and it seems fairly competitive.

Warboss (pk, atk squig, shoota) = 80
Boss zagstruk =88

30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180

Nob with waaagh banner (kustom shoota) = 79
5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
-trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
5 tankbustas (4 pairs of rokkit pistols, nob w big choppa, bomb squig) = 92
-trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45

Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
15 stormboys (nob w big choppa) = 129

Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
Mekgun (Kmk, 5 grots) = 48
Morkanaut (kff, kmb, 2 twin big shoota, 2 rokkit launcha, kmk, klaw of gork) = 374

2000 total


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 17:15:32


Post by: Ashkayel


Anyone noticed Flash Gitz Kaptin has only Ld6? And their stikkbombs are Grenade D3 instead of D6. Seems like a typo.

Wouldn't it be fun if burnas being D3 was also a typo?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 17:29:42


Post by: Jambles


 Rismonite wrote:
-I have always wanted to run Nobz, what size units should I be organizing units in? I am sort of generating a to do list to put together since most of my Nobz are half assembled. Is the Combi-Skorcha a win? What bit are we even using for a power stabba(stikka?), and what weaponz are we using in Nobz squads?

Big choppas are cheap and effective upgrades. Combi-skorcha is a nice touch, but I would just kit them all for close combat. Even with just a slugga/choppa they can do work, extra attacks are pretty good.
-I have always wanted to bring some Mekz with KMB for thematic reasons not relevant to tactics. Hearing that output numbers on Burna are bad already has me thinking that Burnas and Mekz with KMB are turning up lame. Shelve this idea for now?

Burnas and mekboys are still tight, even with only d3 flamer hits you get a good CC weapon to back it up and can take some KMB meks to bring a plasma gun or two. I also just like the look of KMBs

-Big Mek with SAG, I have two of these but don't play with them. I heard the table is gone and the SAG is hitting hard. Is sticking one or two of these in the back behind some objective holders looking successful?
Very much de-powered - before they were swingy, now they're swingy but with a much smaller top end. Not worth taking IMO as backline support, big guns are still way more efficient.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 19:05:00


Post by: DaisyWondercow


gungo wrote:
 DaisyWondercow wrote:
 davou wrote:
 DaisyWondercow wrote:

Does a mob of 10 boyz standing next to a mob of 30 boyz get to use LD30 thanks to mob rule part 2?
Do a unit of Flash Gitz in a battlewagon ignore penalties when moving, thanks to mobile fortress?


Yes to both!


Is that just us ork players using our gestalt psychic belief field to make it so? Or do we have some solid intel on that? Because reading it, I feel like it could go either way.

The first question sounds like the entire point of mob rules.
The second question should work that way becuase of the open top transport rules that state occupants can fire following all normal rules for the vehicle.


Hmm! So, looking at mob rules, there's two parts: you can use # of models as your LD, and you can borrow LD from a friendly ork within 6". It's not clear to me that part 2 is intended to let you share that 30, or just get LD8 from your warboss.
For the second question, if open topped said "use the normal rules for the vehicle" I'd be on board (that's a transport pun), but it's "any modifiers that apply also apply to passenger". So the -1 modifier applies to both... then one might read it that the wagon gets to ignore it (per mobile fortress) while gitz do not....

I'm definitely hoping these work for us, but I'm not convinced they do.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 19:47:24


Post by: fe40k


Is mobile fortress a modified to the vehicle? Yes - and as a result, it applies to the units inside.

As far as the ld goes - your 30 boys mob has 30ld, because of mob rule; and then you're borrowing that leadership, again, via mob rule.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 19:50:48


Post by: koooaei


Played another 1000 pt game. Tried biker boss, wierdboy. 30-10-10 shootaboyz and 5 kommandoes again and also added 2*20 stormboyz with pk nobz and 3 kannonz.
Faced 4 tempestuss scion comsquads fullon plazma - they're dirt cheap - like 16 ppm or something like this, 2 commanders, 3hwt withheavy bolters (14 ppm) and 6 basilisks.
Got 1-st turn - teleported 30 boyz up the field, rushed stormboyz on one flank - they got a good run move. Killed hwt and than charged 2 basilisks. Didn't manage to kill them - 28 shootaboyz (a couple died to overwatching basilisk) and a pk nob took 5 hp off a basilisk (it has 11 hp total).Pk did nothing once again - all the damage was dealt with regular boyz. Stormboyz pulled a charge off, a couple died to overwatch and a couple to full throttle. PK finally managed to hit and dealt 2 damage and boyz dealt another couple of wounds.
I evenpiled in on another basilisks, so 4 of 6 total had to fall back, Than comsquds arrived, wiped stormboyz, killed 22 boyz together with 2 basilisks and ld checks.
I managed to kill his commander and all the scions next turn but than we had to finish the game.
It was 2-d turn and i had no way of dealing with his basilisks. PK don't work as good anti-tank anymore and i honestly don't know what we can do to deal with cheap spammable tough stuff backed by cheap spammable extremely shooty stuff other than try to kill as much and as fast as possible first couple turns and than just crawl around and score or tarpit.

8-th listbuilding just screams for spamming. Why the hell would you want a guardsman over a 12 pts heavy weapon team (that also has a lazgun) or a regular scion over a comsuad scion with 7 pt plazmaguns on 9 pt dudes with 4+ armor, deepstrike and 3+ to-hits, re-rolling 1-s to hit and to-wound. Or a tactical marine over a devastator. Now that the requirement for even min troops are gone.

Anywayz, i'm not quite sure how to deal with all that cheap turdy vehicles cause our shooting is quite bad vs that things and our mellee doesn't seem to be damaging enough - especially pk are not what they used to be. Outscoring and outlasting gets boring quickly.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 20:14:22


Post by: DaisyWondercow


fe40k wrote:
Is mobile fortress a modified to the vehicle? Yes - and as a result, it applies to the units inside.

As far as the ld goes - your 30 boys mob has 30ld, because of mob rule; and then you're borrowing that leadership, again, via mob rule.


I believe "modifier" is specific term used to refer to a + or - (EDIT: or multiplying! Can't forget that x2S) to a model characteristic (though, I'll admit the rules section on modifying characteristics is REAL blurry in my leak, so this may need to wait a few weeks!). Mobile fortress would be a special ability, not a modifier.

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 21:01:56


Post by: davou


 DaisyWondercow wrote:

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?


as it stands yes, but I expect that to be changed. That's obviously not whats intended for the rule, but the way its worded it does become that way


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 21:56:35


Post by: Perfect Organism


OK, trying to put aside my doubts and make the best of what we've got...

Which armies / units are worth trying to outshoot as orks? Obviously depends on exactly which unit we are talking about; stormboys aren't going to be outshooting anyone who has a shooting attack, mek gunz can probably handle themselves against anything except the very best. But what's the point at which you give up trying to even compete with shoota boyz or flash gitz and just charge them in instead?

Is it worth mixing fast and slow, or do we need to decide one way or the other? Previously trukks were cheap and delicate enough that you could and should have just spammed them and figured out what to do with the survivors once (if!) they reached the enemy lines. Now each trukk is basically a pocket battlewagon (complete with the price tag) and it seems like mounting boyz in them is almost too much of a luxury.

I really love my flash gitz, but it seems the only viable way to run them is in a battlewagon, which makes me sad because I can't put the models on the table (except maybe one or two in the back of the wagon). Kaptin Badrukk is annoyingly unable to buff gitz while they are in a wagon, which is a shame because I really like his model too. Is there any way to get them onto the table without them just dying far too fast? They can't even be healed by painboyz.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 22:04:00


Post by: Fenris-77


 davou wrote:
 DaisyWondercow wrote:

And for leadership.....

Unit 1 (30 orks) ----6"---> Unit 2 (1 ork) ----6"-----> Unit 3 (1 ork)

Does that mean all 3 units above have LD30?


as it stands yes, but I expect that to be changed. That's obviously not whats intended for the rule, but the way its worded it does become that way
I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.

On an unrealted note. Someone on the last page was complaining that their 225 unit of Manz used to be able to down a knight on the charge and now can't. 225 point units shouldn't kill knights on the charge. That said, a unit of 5 Manz with twin saws and a Waaagh Banner will still drop a Landraider on the charge (on average), so there's that.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 22:34:51


Post by: davou


 Fenris-77 wrote:


I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.




I can see that point, but you left out something very important.

The exact wording says "Can use as their leadership characteristic", not that they can use it for the purposes of a test. It does not say they may use another mobs leadership to make the test, it says that they may use the other mobs leadership AS THEIR leadership characteristic.

half of Mob rule means that whenever you check a models leadership, your allowed to use the leadership of any other unit within 6. Its poorly worded, and it obviously wasn't the intent, but as it stands now, leadership can be ping ponged along an ork conga line. I expect it to be errata'd VERY fast. RAW vs RAI


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 22:34:57


Post by: Grimmor


I am very put out by Large Blast weapons this Ed. I mean they got nerfed hard for everyone, but for us Orks its basically pointless to take them, cuz you're only gonna get one hit on average, and thats just sad.

Not real happy with Flashgitz, unless that Mobile Fortress trick works, cuz their continued lack of 4+ armor is pissing me off.

On cover. I am not happy here. My Lootas in particular arent happy, as their guns are great now, but they'll get blown apart if anything glares at them. I've got some math to show just how bad cover is for Orks:

We will have a squad of 10 Sisters Rapid Firing at a squad of Space Marines and Orks, both of which are in cover. So 20 shots that hit on a 3+, thats 13.33 shots hitting and 6.66 wounds inflicted. Now is were it gets nuts.

Orks have a 5+, which means they take 4.44 wounds (we'll call it 4) and the marines have a 2+ which means they take 1.33, so 1. Space Marines (in cover) are now 4 times more durable than Orks, and only cost twice as much. Orks may get a second attack and Mob rule, but they still shoot on 5+ and everything else is basically equal.

It gets worse when you realize that its basically impossible for Orks to actually get a cover save

In other news i've pretty well decided to get some magnets and PVC pipe and convert all my Slugga boyz into Stormboyz, cuz that looks like what its gonna take to have a chance now, cuz we are not durable enough, not by a long shot.

 davou wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:


I have to disagree. The rule says 'can use' rather than 'has'. It's the difference between having it on your datasheet and borrowing it for the purposes of a test. "Can use" mean that, for the purposes of taking a Ld related test, that the borrowing unit (2 in this case)can use that other Ld value (from Unit 1) rather than their own. The rule in way implies that Unit 2 possesses that other Ld value in the way necessary for them to then share it on to unit 3. There's nothing in the logic of the rule to allow that IMO.




I can see that point, but you left out something very important.

The exact wording says "Can use as their leadership characteristic", not that they can use it for the purposes of a test. It does not say they may use another mobs leadership to make the test, it says that they may use the other mobs leadership AS THEIR leadership characteristic.

half of Mob rule means that whenever you check a models leadership, your allowed to use the leadership of any other unit within 6. Its poorly worded, and it obviously wasn't the intent, but as it stands now, leadership can be ping ponged along an ork conga line. I expect it to be errata'd VERY fast. RAW vs RAI


Screw that, let us have our nice thing.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 22:59:19


Post by: davou


 Grimmor wrote:
[[snip]]


I think people poo pooing orks because OF the saves such are missing the point of orks a little. Saves are supposed to suck for orks.

Given the choice between an ork in power armor and two orks and grot, the gang of green skins synergises better with the rest of the army.

Orks are kiling it so far in 8th, I've found about 5 batreps so far, plus about 6-7 anecdotal games and orks have won a VERY LARGE majority of them


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 23:05:48


Post by: Reecius


Lots of questions! OK, I will try to get them all.

@The ThievingMick

I use a mix of Kan with Rokkits (BS 4+, baby!) Dreads with Skorchas and Klaws, the Gorkanaut (who is a beast!) and Big Meks with KFFs to both protect and fix them.

Bat rep, here:




We will be playing tonight on stream, too: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/06/tuesday-night-fight-orks-vs-chaos/

For Trukks, I like to take 6, but you certainly don't have to. You could run as low as 1 or 2 and have them be excellent distraction units.

Power Stabbas rule! I think they're the best weapon option for Nobz, personally in terms of price vs. power.

@Bigdark

Gorkanaut is best, IMO. Morkanaut is good because it can take a KFF, but its offense is lower.

The Stompa is totally boss. Very expensive but if you build your list around him, he's very good. We felt he was fairly priced.

Ork walkers are great, now. I really love using them. See the above for loadouts.

@gungo

I don't understand your question? A bomb squig in a fortification? Alone? Not following, sorry.

@Nazrak

NP!

@Novelist

The Nob rule is more of just a bonus not a true morale defenseon its own, use the Warboss for keeping order.

WAAAGH Banner is stupid, stupid good. When you have a mob of 30 Boyz (or two!) getting 4 attacks per model (or 5 with a Weirdboy casting Warpath) hitting on 2's? You rock things. As Fenris said, he's a solo character, he runs around only really fearing Snipers and buffing the crap out of your army.

@davou

Yes, he is a character like a Warboss. Think of him as like an Ork Lieutenant or something.

@Fenris-77

You don't pay for the Boss Nob, you buy an Ork and replace him with the Boss Nob.

@fe40k

Positive.

@Frothmog

Yeah, use both for super durable Boyz!

@Vankraken

I prefer Rokkits on Kans now, myself. Grotzookas are still good, though.

You can eat a wound with an ammor runt yes, that is one of their benefits.

@Zend

That is probably because of what the model is modeled with.



Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/06 23:11:48


Post by: JohnU


Gungo was referring to when units could man emplaced guns on fortifications and shoot it at their ballistic skill. Toss a min squad of Tankbustas with squigs (which are +2 BS) in a Firestorm Redoubt and have them shoot the guns.

Unfortunately I don't see that rule anywhere anymore.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 00:05:09


Post by: Grimmor


 davou wrote:
 Grimmor wrote:
[[snip]]


I think people poo pooing orks because OF the saves such are missing the point of orks a little. Saves are supposed to suck for orks.

Given the choice between an ork in power armor and two orks and grot, the gang of green skins synergises better with the rest of the army.

Orks are kiling it so far in 8th, I've found about 5 batreps so far, plus about 6-7 anecdotal games and orks have won a VERY LARGE majority of them


My Orks always had their 4+, it was very important for me as i faced a ton of Bolters and other low AP weapons, and not crap saves are important for Lootas as well.


 Reecius wrote:

@Frothmog

Yeah, use both for super durable Boyz!



5++/6+++ doesnt sound "super durable" to me. Frankly i dont expect to actually use my Painboy at all.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:00:37


Post by: JimOnMars


Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:06:00


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoiler:
 Grimmor wrote:
 davou wrote:
 Grimmor wrote:
[[snip]]


I think people poo pooing orks because OF the saves such are missing the point of orks a little. Saves are supposed to suck for orks.

Given the choice between an ork in power armor and two orks and grot, the gang of green skins synergises better with the rest of the army.

Orks are kiling it so far in 8th, I've found about 5 batreps so far, plus about 6-7 anecdotal games and orks have won a VERY LARGE majority of them


My Orks always had their 4+, it was very important for me as i faced a ton of Bolters and other low AP weapons, and not crap saves are important for Lootas as well.


 Reecius wrote:

@Frothmog

Yeah, use both for super durable Boyz!



5++/6+++ doesnt sound "super durable" to me. Frankly i dont expect to actually use my Painboy at all.


keep in mind, that if you don't play your ork army exactly like Davou you are wrong and therefore a bad ork player.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:09:39


Post by: Grimmor


 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?


Nice to see that Killa Kans work again, though it would have been hard to make them worse than they were.

For the record i ddint say Orks where bad, i said the current cover system is bad (for Orks and other 6+ savers) that the Naughts and Stompa feel overpriced, that Ork boyz feel pointless now (as i can just spam Kommandoes or Stormboyz instead) and our old Large Blast Weapons are worthless.

I acknowledge that a bunch of stuff got better, and im very happy that our Walkers are good and that Buggies are great, im just pissed that our Troops choice doesnt feel worth taking anymore and that the SAG and KillKannon are now useless.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:12:14


Post by: SemperMortis


 Grimmor wrote:
 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?


Nice to see that Killa Kans work again, though it would have been hard to make them worse than they were.

For the record i ddint say Orks where bad, i said the current cover system is bad (for Orks and other 6+ savers) that the Naughts and Stompa feel overpriced, that Ork boyz feel pointless now (as i can just spam Kommandoes or Stormboyz instead) and our old Large Blast Weapons are worthless.

I acknowledge that a bunch of stuff got better, and im very happy that our Walkers are good and that Buggies are great, im just pissed that our Troops choice doesnt feel worth taking anymore and that the SAG and KillKannon are now useless.


Take a peak at how fast Nids got compared to us.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:14:37


Post by: gungo


 JohnU wrote:
Gungo was referring to when units could man emplaced guns on fortifications and shoot it at their ballistic skill. Toss a min squad of Tankbustas with squigs (which are +2 BS) in a Firestorm Redoubt and have them shoot the guns.

Unfortunately I don't see that rule anywhere anymore.
ya it's kinda weird how it works now. It's still automated when someone is embarked But it allows the fortifications to target other units rather than the closest. I just didn't realize it sorry. I think most of the odd rules questions with orkshave been answered for me. Things like runts as ablative wounds being intentional and adding to mob rule which is allowed to be daisy chained.

I think burnas need a small boost compared to kommandos. Burnas should ignore cover modifiers.
I think the shokk atk gun and big Mek on foot needs an ammo runt. It's just a bit expensive for the low reliability.
I think badrukk is ok (only reason he won't be used as often is his buff doesn't work in transports) but I find his flashgat buff baffling as it doesn't stack w an ammo runt. Maybe instead of hit rolls of 1 it should be wound rolls of 1?

The above 3 things are the only things in the codex I think fall behind comparatively(not counting flyers which I've nEver used often) Not that they won't be used just that they are oddly better options.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 01:18:16


Post by: Grimmor


SemperMortis wrote:


Take a peak at how fast Nids got compared to us.


I've heard they are really fast. Also Genestealers now have a 5++ and im rather happy about that.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 02:23:20


Post by: davou


SemperMortis wrote:


keep in mind, that if you don't play your ork army exactly like Davou you are wrong and therefore a bad ork player.


Now, by like me.... do you mean not loosing? Because you're more than welcome to lose with your orks if you want, but it seems like that's not a requirement anymore

Added the latest FLG batrep to the list! Orks tabled CSM, despite being seized on. Boy they sure do suck


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 03:13:31


Post by: Reecius


@Grimnor

Well, you are free to see the glass half empty if you like, but I can say from playing MANY games of them in 8th against nearly every other army in the game that they are outstanding. I feel they are one of the best armies in the game right now.

And you don't think a 5++ followed by a 6+ is very durable? How's that? That is a roughly 45% reduction in damage taken, lol. It is INCREDIBLY good for a horde army, like, almost too good.

Eh, but whatever. I know adjusting to a new edition can be challenging but I am sure in time and playing many of you that are currently apprehensive will come around.

Da Boyz are back!

Good luck to my fellow Ork players.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 03:22:51


Post by: davou


tonights game was great man, thanks!


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 03:33:51


Post by: Reecius


Glad you enjoyed it =)


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 04:16:03


Post by: koooaei


I'm sure that dreads work fine at destroying vehicles. But klaws on nobz kinda don't any more. Maybe it's just me. But my nobz only managed to deal 2 hp of damage with klaws across the whole game. While regular shootaboyz and stormboyz were chipping wounds off those basilisks. Slowly but steadilly. Well, on the other hand we don't get to pay for nobz any more. But i'm thinking we need to rellly concentrate our power to take down those vehicles. Infantry's fine at killing other infantry in mellee - with our s4 we're piling wounds even if getting charged (if we survive through it).

Another lesson learnt from the previous game: even if you wana rush forward to take out those vehicles...don't if it takes you out of boss's range. You won't kill a vehicle in one go with something like boyz or stormboyz and than they'll fall back and the rest of the list will shot you to bits and morale will finish you off. I lost 2 squads cause of it.

I'm getting unhappy with the power klaws but wat other options do we have? Maybe it's time to take Ghaz off the shelf? He costs like 1.5 deff dreads and kills 2 times more + buffs nearby stuff. Yeah, i'll try a wagon with ghaz next game!

Btw, for those who claim orks are slow. Stormboyz and bikers are very fast. Teleporting boyz are very fast. Trukks and wagons are as fast as stormboyz basically. We ain't as quick as nids with some of their combos but we're fast enough to be threatening.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 04:59:50


Post by: doktor_g


Can I mix clans in the same detachment?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 05:29:23


Post by: Jidmah


 doktor_g wrote:
Can I mix clans in the same detachment?

Yes, but you shouldn't unless playing both Zagstruk and Snikrot.

Outside of those two Characters, clans have no effect on your army whatsoever, as long as everybody has the same clan as your warboss, nobz and painboyz.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 05:32:52


Post by: JimOnMars


 Reecius wrote:
Glad you enjoyed it =)

Yea, but I felt sorry for the poor helldrakes....I mean heckdrakes.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 06:39:19


Post by: fe40k


@koooaei: Yeah, I'm having the same thoughts. Thanks for the batrep though.

I don't know what Orks should take against armor - it doesn't seem that anything is good enough anymore; Tankbustas are probably the best bet, but a 10 unit of them (+addons/squiqs) and a trukk are really pricey for one squad - especially when that squad on average will get maybe 3-4 wounds (which is 9-12 damage, not too bad); but that's if the opponents saves rolls aren't hot.

Imperial Guard will be our worst nightmare for sure - Scions are fantastically priced (even without Plasma guns factored in), are BS3+, and ignore Orks armor save (outside of KFF...); a squad of 10 of them dropping in with a Prime is going to eat about 15 Orks in a single go at least - but probably more because 40 shots is a ton from Rapid Fire 2 guns.

[For what it's worth, Scions can only be under the effects of one order per turn - don't let people get a million orders/buffs to a single squad, that's not how orders work this edition.]

Nevermind the fact that Heavy Weapons Teams are cheap as chips, and can be taken/spammed by the Imperium; and then there's assassins/etc as backup. Can't even rely on cover to help mitigate.

We'll have to wait and see how the battlereports and actual gameplay turns out - but I'm struggling to see how we'll deal with the massive spam this edition. We don't get cover anymore, KFF is super small for infantry squads, our anti-tank seems trash and unreliable (which will be made worse by more transport spam+more wounds on vehicles), all these new Imperium toys (Scions/Taurox Prime), and we basically don't have an armor save from any anti-infantry gun if it has even -1AP.

Perhaps the codex will give us additional options.

Alternatively, perhaps we go super transport heavy, hoping to deploy all our units first/seize the initiative; and then drop Kommandos/Weirdboy mobs on the lines and hope we can stay in melee/win it then and there.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 06:56:14


Post by: Gargantuan


fe40k wrote:
@koooaei:

Imperial Guard will be our worst nightmare for sure - Scions are fantastically priced (even without Plasma guns factored in), are BS3+, and ignore Orks armor save (outside of KFF...); a squad of 10 of them dropping in with a Prime is going to eat about 15 Orks in a single go at least - but probably more because 40 shots is a ton from Rapid Fire 2 guns.


Scions can't double tap when dropping in. Their guns have 18 inch range and they have to drop in more than 9 inches from enemies.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 07:03:12


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


@fe40k: Keep in mind that Scions only have 18" range on their basic rifles, and that they have to deploy MORE than 9" away when dropping in, so they will never be within rapid fire range the turn they deep strike. So even with FRFSRF orders, a single squad will only get 20 shots.

I think a lot of less than careful players will see 9" in the deep strike rules and think that means they can rapid fire the turn they arrive, so don't be shy to point out this is not the case.
Ninja'd by Gargantuan


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 07:26:18


Post by: koooaei


 Gargantuan wrote:

Scions can't double tap when dropping in. Their guns have 18 inch range and they have to drop in more than 9 inches from enemies.


Why would you take a regular rifle when you can have 7 pts plazma on everyone? This command squad spam is dead killy. They cost less than a loota and can alpha-strike + are 4 times killier. And somewhat more durable cause of 4+ armor. Scions are hot this edition.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 07:29:18


Post by: GreatGranpapy


Wow I just noticed the Painboy is an elite.

Come to think of it a lot of what used to be HQs are elites now.....

So THAT'S why they (probably) allow more elites in the Battalion detachment.


I might pick up a second Start Collecting Orks set based on all the changes.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 07:30:47


Post by: SuspiciousSucculent


 koooaei wrote:
Why would you take a regular rifle when you can have 7 pts plazma on everyone? This command squad spam is dead killy. They cost less than a loota and can alpha-strike + are 4 times killier. And somewhat more durable cause of 4+ armor. Scions are hot this edition.


Oh, absolutely, and as far as I can tell, nobody is arguing that they aren't. Just wanted to clarify something, as several people I've run into (who PLAY guard) had that misconception about rapid firing from deep strike. Scions are absolutely good, but they aren't quite that broken.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 08:22:16


Post by: koooaei


Scion command squads are absolutely broken in a sense of killiness-per-point. But they're quite squishy. Drop in, overcharge plasma and kill stuff that's worth way more points than they cost. Than die. They're the new suicide drop. And very point-efficient one.

Anywayz, let's go back to orks. I'm thinking of running multiple warbosses cause i like to spread the front and not just move in a massive blob that's easy to maneuvre around. I like to be the one maneuvring around, actually. Bosses are still quite killy and cost reasonable points. Their durability is not amazing but fine.
On the other hanв if you're running shootaboy blobs, you really want to deepstrike them with a wierdboy. He's just 62 pts and shootas are slow and you really need this deepstrike to help out your faster front of trukks, wagons and stormboyz.

So, currently i think i'll try to separate my forces. Mech stuff with Ghaz can go anywhere but the second part - that also needs a warboss - must be held tight to not suffer massive morale losses. Will obviously require a larger game.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 09:55:54


Post by: Perfect Organism


 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?

You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right? They are also the same people that playtested the new edition and decided three guard mortars should be cheaper than one lobba and that a stompa was worth nearly two knights.

Quite apart from that, anecdotes mean very little. I regularly won games with the 3rd edition ork codex. Does that mean that orks were a strong army before the 4th edition codex arrived? 40k has always had a huge element of chance and a bit of skill involved as well as simply picking the strongest list. Until we've got data from tournaments, I'm going to lean towards trusting math-hammer over battle reports.

Regardless, this shouldn't be a thread about whether orks are good or bad. This should be a thread about how to make orks as effective as they can be.

So, how to get the best out of bubblechukkas?

Effectively, your opponent only gets to place one of the dice. You choose one, he chooses one, then you choose the third and he has to place the fourth in the only remaining option.

If you're shooting against 1-wound infantry, I think your initial move should be to put the worst die in damage or the best die in shots, depending on which stands out as most exceptional (so if you have 6, 4, 3, 3 place the 6, while if you have 5, 5, 4, 1, place the 1). Against big targets, I guess worst die in S and best in shots or damage? I'm not sure there is an optimal solution. Maybe just always put the best die in shots and then damage (if it's multi-wound), AP (if the save is good) then S? This is complicated enough that it might need proper computer simulation.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 10:49:09


Post by: koooaei


It's not entirely clear how to play the bubble-chukka.

We placed the dice in the order in which it was written, so, the first die goes to str, second to ap, third to damage and fourth to the number of shots. Maybe we played it wrong but the wording is unclear.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 11:01:23


Post by: Grimmor


 koooaei wrote:
It's not entirely clear how to play the bubble-chukka.

We placed the dice in the order in which it was written, so, the first die goes to str, second to ap, third to damage and fourth to the number of shots. Maybe we played it wrong but the wording is unclear.


You did, thecontrolling player gets to pick where the first dice goes, then your opponent gets to pick where a different one goes, then you again, and then the last goes on whats left. However that one choice can screw the whole gun up.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 11:24:15


Post by: koooaei


In this case, it's not that great. Cause the opponent can allocate a single low number to neuter the gun and make it's either str or number of shots too bad. I'd still take it if it was two times cheper. But as is, it's sad but it's for fun non-competitive games only. If you want to have more or less effective mek gunz, take kmk. If you want something to score the backline and still provide firepower, take a solo kannon or lobba. I'd probably go for kannon as lobbas are quite bad for points now. Kannons aren't great either but they at least cost a bit cheaper and can occasionally kill somehting a bit tougher or in cover.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 11:32:49


Post by: Solar Shock


 Perfect Organism wrote:

You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right? They are also the same people that playtested the new edition and decided three guard mortars should be cheaper than one lobba and that a stompa was worth nearly two knights.

Quite apart from that, anecdotes mean very little. I regularly won games with the 3rd edition ork codex. Does that mean that orks were a strong army before the 4th edition codex arrived? 40k has always had a huge element of chance and a bit of skill involved as well as simply picking the strongest list. Until we've got data from tournaments, I'm going to lean towards trusting math-hammer over battle reports.

Yeh i have the same thoughts. Not bashing on Reece, but in terms of adding to the discussion, i'd much prefer he take one point from this thread and write an in-depth response. Rather than what so far has more of been a 'Yeh Kanz are awesome!' level.

So, how to get the best out of bubblechukkas?

Effectively, your opponent only gets to place one of the dice. You choose one, he chooses one, then you choose the third and he has to place the fourth in the only remaining option.


You could do the math by creating an equation for the Wound outcome in excel; by assuming the role of both attacker and defender you just make the dice choice based upon what at the time you think is best. That way, dependent on the target you can work out the most optimal for wounding. But if im being honest, its going to be a lot of math and a lot of times where I imagine the difference is negligible, not to mention for a complete understanding, you'd want to know the state of the target at the time also. I doubt its worth doing the math, as there are far more variables than accountable and its still all dice dependent.

I think the best way is to think about what the opponent will want to pick. It is likely they will want to maintain their own save (as humans have a tendency to lean towards keeping fate in their own hands - re-rollable 2+'s for example. highly strong, but if you fail it you can lose a significant portion of your army.). But its tough. because putting a 1 in str is always going to make it hard for you to wound.
GAK! Im leaning towards;
Str > Hits > AP > D

Because of the order of rolls. Saves are last, so even if you put a 6 in D, it doesnt matter if you don't hit, wound and make it past the save. But on the same note, if you have a low Str your wound rolls are going to hurt.

EDIT: but in writing this, i mostly agree with Koooaei, regardless a single 1 in Str or Hits is really going to screw the gun over. And even with CP re-rolls, its probably best just to take the more reliable stuff.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 11:38:03


Post by: gungo


I personally think scions will be part of a top competitve army in some form.

Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.a 5 man squad w Rokkit pistols is slightly better than rokkits at toughness 4 or 8 with 3 wounds but massively stronger against toughness 3 or 7 with 3 or less. They are our most killy unit. I'd still take a unit of rokkit and rokkit pistols as rokkits seem better at range against straight t8 high wound vehicles. But rokkit pistols are brutal.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 11:42:42


Post by: hordrak


Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 12:28:10


Post by: koooaei


gungo wrote:


Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.


Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 12:48:20


Post by: Palleus


 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


My guess is that the power stabba is supposed to be the harpoon arm from the Nobz sprue.

Side note: Have we gotten a look at the ork commands yet? I'm thinking that if command powers are any good, they may help limit the spam as players will have to choose between spamming, and getting a boatload of command points to spend.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 12:59:57


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


So it is my understanding that tankbustas and burnas are best used in a trukk, while the gitz almost certainly need a wagon?

I think it would be pretty cool to combine burnas and manz in the same transport as they both want to be up close and would be great against a variety of different units. I think each fills the void of the others weakness nicely. You could have 10 burnas and 5 manz in a wagon that also deals some hurting in combat itself. Or a smaller version with 6 burnas and 3 manz in a trukk with a wrecking ball.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 13:01:47


Post by: gungo


 koooaei wrote:
gungo wrote:


Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.


Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them
kooniae rokkit pistols are double the shots that's 2x reroll to hit vs ur rhino, str7 ap-2 d3 per model. Those 10 shots w reroll to hit are better than 6x plasma shots in rapid fire range at 3+ to hit. You don't buy models singles you but units. Tankbustas aren't great in melee and if your including orders you include the cost of the squad which is really only preventing gets hot in overcharged plasma just like you include the cost of a transport or weridboy. It gets really convoluted at that point however a straight squad of rokkit pistol tankbustas w 2x bomb squigs still outgun a scion squad in rapid fire range (which scions are not in when they deepstrike) and overcharged (meaning they die in a 1).
5 tankbustas at 12in w 2x squigs does ~6.25 wounds to a rhino. 5 scions w 3 overcharged plasma 2 hotshot guns w reroll 1s order at rapidfire range does ~4 wounds. Double check my math I did it in my head.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 13:46:37


Post by: Singleton Mosby


Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 13:50:12


Post by: gungo


 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...
there was a post on Facebook that said we don't make the model so no rules use those conversions as count as battlewagons or FW vehicles. I'm sorry I don't recall where it's located.

This is only a stop gap book maybe rules might appear in our codex or chapter approved.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:03:58


Post by: davou


its amazing that GW has basically out and said its fine to use models for anything but their official listing 0.o

This opens the flood games to third party models


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:09:22


Post by: gungo


 davou wrote:
its amazing that GW has basically out and said its fine to use models for anything but their official listing 0.o

This opens the flood games to third party models
you always could use 3rd party models w gw rules just not in gw stores. 3rd party manufacturers can't specifically create models that gw makes on copyrighted material. Those flood gates have been open for years. Guard in general have a ton of options for cheaper 1/45 scale tanks.

I've been using spellcrow legs for years I order to make use of the extra arms and bodies and heads in ork Kits. Using the heads and arms to make my ork boys all unique. I picked up kromlech tankbustas and thier Maddoc so that each painboy and tankbusta isn't identical. Use FW trukk Kits so I have 4 unique trukks. I like my models to look similar but not be repetitive and the same. It's also more fun to paint.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:15:31


Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:18:27


Post by: Singleton Mosby


gungo wrote:
 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...
there was a post on Facebook that said we don't make the model so no rules use those conversions as count as battlewagons or FW vehicles. I'm sorry I don't recall where it's located.

This is only a stop gap book maybe rules might appear in our codex or chapter approved.


A well. Can't say I like anything of what I see in 8th so far.

Where are the 'ardboyz in the book btw, also something we'll have to wait on?


Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:25:19


Post by: Solar Shock




So Im really starting to like the idea of rokkit pistols. More so for MEQ and elite hunting. As mentioned the -1 str compared to the rokkit doesn't matter until a T8 unit. Multiwound models still have a chance of dying due to D3 wounds. Which unlike burnas is per shot. so if you connect with both rokkits you can actually outperform rokkits. The question is;

Will there ever be an opportunity to use the rokkit pistols in combat? and is that worth losing the range of the rokkits for 2 shots?
So rokkit pistols can be shot regardless of being in combat, but only in your own turn, so either;
  • you have to survive a charge, and then shoot back in your turn and fight in combat.
  • Or charge, survive two turns of combat and then get to shoot again.

  • Neither of those seem ideal or intuitive, as the likelihood is;
  • Either the unit you charge isn't great at combat, falls back in its own turn, or dies in combat in 2 turns. Meaning you make no use of the pistol rule
  • is a combat unit, charged you and your probably not going to survive 2 turns.


  • Unless your running really large squads. Which can now split fire, so better than before; I see not a huge benefit of having the pistol rule. So; the 2x shots. The Str 7 and 2 shots will indeed be better for MEQ, great for say termies, as you have the chance for each shot to do the 2 dmg and you get the extra shots. I think I will have to try a squad of all pistols, sit them in a trukk and rush up into the enemy lines. Im not sure mixing the weapons in a squad is much benefit, unless you plan on suicide into vehicles with nob hammers and such.

    Question; Does the pistol rule allow a unit in an open topped vehicle to shoot into a unit thats within 1" of that vehicle? Do they count as being within 1" of the enemy if they are in the vehicle basically? as the pistol rule states; A model can fire a pistol if within 1"..... in such circumstances, the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the vehicle. So as long as the embarked unit count as being within 1", they can fire into combat from a vehicle. That could be a very good use of them.




    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:26:16


    Post by: gungo


     Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
    Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.

    I have no idea what they will put into chapter approved books but they use to be the rules and designers books to create unique clans, special characters and rules for conversions such as the looted wagon. I'm not sure the exact ruling of the chapter House case but if gw can claim that make an official model by giving specific instructions on how to make a looted wagon using a leman Russ with say an ork trukk kit maybe we will see the looted wagon again but i won't get my hopes up.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Solar Shock wrote:


    So Im really starting to like the idea of rokkit pistols. More so for MEQ and elite hunting. As mentioned the -1 str compared to the rokkit doesn't matter until a T8 unit. Multiwound models still have a chance of dying due to D3 wounds. Which unlike burnas is per shot. so if you connect with both rokkits you can actually outperform rokkits. The question is;

    Will there ever be an opportunity to use the rokkit pistols in combat? and is that worth losing the range of the rokkits for 2 shots?
    So rokkit pistols can be shot regardless of being in combat, but only in your own turn, so either;
  • you have to survive a charge, and then shoot back in your turn and fight in combat.
  • Or charge, survive two turns of combat and then get to shoot again.

  • Neither of those seem ideal or intuitive, as the likelihood is;
  • Either the unit you charge isn't great at combat, falls back in its own turn, or dies in combat in 2 turns. Meaning you make no use of the pistol rule
  • is a combat unit, charged you and your probably not going to survive 2 turns.


  • Unless your running really large squads. Which can now split fire, so better than before; I see not a huge benefit of having the pistol rule. So; the 2x shots. The Str 7 and 2 shots will indeed be better for MEQ, great for say termies, as you have the chance for each shot to do the 2 dmg and you get the extra shots. I think I will have to try a squad of all pistols, sit them in a trukk and rush up into the enemy lines. Im not sure mixing the weapons in a squad is much benefit, unless you plan on suicide into vehicles with nob hammers and such.

    Question; Does the pistol rule allow a unit in an open topped vehicle to shoot into a unit thats within 1" of that vehicle? Do they count as being within 1" of the enemy if they are in the vehicle basically? as the pistol rule states; A model can fire a pistol if within 1"..... in such circumstances, the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the vehicle. So as long as the embarked unit count as being within 1", they can fire into combat from a vehicle. That could be a very good use of them.


    math wise 5 rokkit pistols at 12in range is still slightly better then 5 rokkits at 12 in range vs toughness 8 and 3+ wound models. However the 24in range makes rokkits more useable. The issue is 5 pistols are much much better vs toughness 6 or less 2 wound or less models. If you plan to charge with your tankbustas or use a weirdboy w them for da jump take rokkit pistols they are better. If you plan to sit back and shoot at large vehicles go for rokkits.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:44:24


    Post by: JohnU


    You can only take one set of pistols for every 5 models (not counting Squigs).


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:45:27


    Post by: warhead01


    gungo wrote:
     Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
    Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.

    I have no idea what they will put into chapter approved books but they use to be the rules and designers books to create unique clans, special characters and rules for conversions such as the looted wagon. I'm not sure the exact ruling of the chapter House case but if gw can claim that make an official model by giving specific instructions on how to make a looted wagon using a leman Russ with say an ork trukk kit maybe we will see the looted wagon again but i won't get my hopes up.

    They do seem to have part of a formula for DIY vehicles right now. All those weapons having costs should mean you just need to buy a platform to put them on and decide just what acceptable. Looted vehicles or VDR (Vehicle design rolls) Could be good.

    The only Question I have is. Q If a Mob of Orks is half way covered by 2 KFF's does it count as fully with in the KFF? Example, a unit of 30 has 15 boys covered by one KFF and the other 15 boys covered by another. Would this count as fully with in 9" of the KFF or not.
    I was really hoping that the KFF was going to count as covering the unit as long as any models were within range again. (Seemed to be implied bu the Faction Focus on the first read through and it got my hopes up. ) B
    But it is what it is.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:57:03


    Post by: JohnU


    The KFF rules imply units within 9" of that particular KFF, so I would go with no on that one.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 14:57:07


    Post by: Kap'n Krump


    I've played a couple games at this point, can share my thoughts:

    Change to cover hurts boyz' durability, hard. What was before a 5-4+ save is now a 5-6+ save, or worse. Big boyz blobs are kind of fun, but really get chewed up. Cover just doesn't really help them. Probably require a KFF to help boyz.

    Painboyz are kind of 'eh'. They can protect multiple squads, but 6+ FNP isn't much to write home about.

    Warbosses are AMAZING. Let all units within 6" run and charge, and can do D3 wounds to pass a morale test.

    Ghaz is really quite good, and cheaper.

    I've found that boyz are really quite poor at anti-vehicle, now, which honestly makes sense. Their one power klaw is going to do about 4 wounds on average, and most vehicles have like 8+.

    Was surprised at how effective shooting was. SAG, mek guns, KMK and smasha gun especially, were effective at taking down even heavy armor (russes).

    Dakkajet was also quite effective, though the new flyer rules makes it easy to trap yourself, so be careful to not force yourself to fly off the board and die.

    Nobz were shockingly effective at anti armor- big choppas took a knight to pieces. Little ones. Plus, giving them all ammo runts basically gives them extra wounds.

    Rokkits seem great.

    Battlewagon is kind of 'eh'. Decently durable, deffrolla is ok, but pales in comparison to something like a land raider. Making one into a gunboat is not a bad idea.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:16:19


    Post by: JohnU


    Any Sigmar players that can comment on whether Orruks are closer to Boy or Nob size? They have a bunch of spears and pokey bits that might be good for power stabba conversions.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:22:57


    Post by: doktor_g


    I thought lobbas looked ok?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:30:55


    Post by: Solar Shock


    Yeh lobbas still look good. Still retain the ignore LOS, 48" range, so you can hammer the infantry. And with the d6 hits they can still pile wounds onto things.

    Kap'n Krump can you comment further on the SAG, was one of my favourite models and I used to regularly field a few for funny shenanigans and the occasional vortex. To me the the randomness of both the hits and the Str seem to really hurt it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:31:06


    Post by: skyfi


    Ahoyyyyy mates! First post in a while.

    All this 8th edition talk has me finishing my freebooters. I'm quite excited.

    Gits look great but shame about only gettin badrukk reroll outside Of a transport. :(

    Waaaagh banner nob, how would you use this in a entirely mechanized list?

    I'd like to run something like

    BW with Rolla x 4 kannons on all, big shoota x2 on one, killkannon on one
    10 gits with 10 runts one wagon
    15 lootas one wagon
    20 boys in wagon
    10 boys one wagon with warboss
    4 nobs + runts + banner nob in trukk with ball
    Warboss in mega armor
    Warboss on bike
    Kff mek on bike

    Points will be a bit high for 1850/2000 so will have to shave some Dakka or boys off. Considered running ink squads of
    10 and ass grots to get the +9 command point detachment

    I really like the idea of all gun boats with some melee in some boats plus the boats now with Rollas should do well.

    I' have about 8 manz, 5-6 koptas and a couple warrtrakks coming up but not sure if I want to field them for sure yet


    Considered adding a unit of 3 koptas with one saw and rokkits? They seem expensive and maybe big shoota load out is
    Better?

    War trakks I figure would just get big shootas on.

    One issue I'm having is... someone shoots a truck or bw with your banner nob inside it... or any character... that character is their own unit... so they take d6 mortal sounds like every other unit in the 6" radius?




    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:32:16


    Post by: davou


     Perfect Organism wrote:

    You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right?


    What reason does GW have to suddenly fake a discrepancy in power in their own game? Orks have been universally killing it, tabling armies left and right so far. If gw wanted to create a fake situation, they would favor the game being balanced, not telling game shops to fake wins for orks left and right.

    MWG just posted a batrep, and orks table space marines. I added it to the list of batreps on page 1. So far orks have tabled their opponents in more than half the games played, and have only lost one game against tau.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:39:17


    Post by: Pedroig


     davou wrote:
    its amazing that GW has basically out and said its fine to use models for anything but their official listing 0.o

    This opens the flood games to third party models


    I'm going to use my Epic Ork Army to take advantage of cover and LOS. 30 Boyz in a 2" diameter, no problem!


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     davou wrote:


    What reason does GW have to suddenly fake a discrepancy in power in their own game? Orks have been universally killing it, tabling armies left and right so far. If gw wanted to create a fake situation, they would favor the game being balanced, not telling game shops to fake wins for orks left and right.

    MWG just posted a batrep, and orks table space marines. I added it to the list of batreps on page 1. So far orks have tabled their opponents in more than half the games played, and have only lost one game against tau.


    And really they would be winning by blowouts, not a couple of points here, a tabling in round 5 there, etc.

    But come, come, you are simply trying to be a reasonable, rationale person in a thread about Orks. Shame on you...


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 15:57:56


    Post by: Grimskul


     JohnU wrote:
    Any Sigmar players that can comment on whether Orruks are closer to Boy or Nob size? They have a bunch of spears and pokey bits that might be good for power stabba conversions.


    Orruks are definitely boy size, Black Orcs/'Ard Boyz are their Nob equivalent. I think power stabbas can still be represented through normal choppas, maybe modelled slightly differently if you are taking normal choppas for some reason in the Nob squad given that Ork weaponry is fairly haphazard in its looks.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:04:52


    Post by: JohnU


     Grimskul wrote:
     JohnU wrote:
    Any Sigmar players that can comment on whether Orruks are closer to Boy or Nob size? They have a bunch of spears and pokey bits that might be good for power stabba conversions.


    Orruks are definitely boy size, Black Orcs/'Ard Boyz are their Nob equivalent. I think power stabbas can still be represented through normal choppas, maybe modelled slightly differently if you are taking normal choppas for some reason in the Nob squad given that Ork weaponry is fairly haphazard in its looks.


    Thanks!

    My only concern is if I'm running mixed squads of BCs/stabbas since I think all my Nobs have axes.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:10:13


    Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


    Maybe just model a bit of a "pokin stick" at the end of the shaft of the axe to show the stabba?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:10:16


    Post by: gungo


     JohnU wrote:
    You can only take one set of pistols for every 5 models (not counting Squigs).


    Dangit You ruin all my fun.... Joking of course.
    Thanks for your feedback I keep messing up on these new rules trying to make a decent TAC list.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
    Maybe just model a bit of a "pokin stick" at the end of the shaft of the axe to show the stabba?

    I would say the best weapon to represent it and an easy conversion to cut off your choppa and replace it with a combat knife. There are many companies that sell this bit.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:14:40


    Post by: MangoMadness


     JohnU wrote:
    My only concern is if I'm running mixed squads of BCs/stabbas since I think all my Nobs have axes.


    Paint the stabbas as 'power axes' blue blade, lightning and such?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:29:37


    Post by: JohnU


    gungo wrote:


    Dangit You ruin all my fun.... Joking of course.
    Thanks for your feedback I keep messing up on these new rules trying to make a decent TAC list.



    More like you keep wanting to do the things I want to do.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:43:42


    Post by: Nazrak


    So previously, power klaws were one of our go-to ways of dealing with vehicles. Seems like they're not as viable for that now, so what are we going to be using instead? Massed rokkits on kanz/buggies & trakks/koptas?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    And tankbustas? Everyone loves tankbustas, right?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:50:05


    Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


    Especially since they re roll hits against vehicles and do flat 3 damage.. I'd say yes. 10 rokkits against vehicles yields 5 hits, 2.5 wounds which is 7-8 wounds before saves. Plus our honorable squigs.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 16:58:36


    Post by: gungo


     JohnU wrote:
    gungo wrote:


    Dangit You ruin all my fun.... Joking of course.
    Thanks for your feedback I keep messing up on these new rules trying to make a decent TAC list.



    More like you keep wanting to do the things I want to do.



    This is the best TAC boy blob list I can come up with. Every unit has a job to counter something. (I'm not ready to do a dread mob list till I see the FW list.)

    Warboss (pk, atk squig, shoota) = 80
    Boss zagstruk =88

    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180

    Nob with waaagh banner (kustom shoota) = 79
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 tankbustas (pairs of rokkit pistols, 3 rokkit launcha, nob w big choppa, bomb squig) = 92
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45

    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    15 stormboys (nob w big choppa) = 129

    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Morkanaut (kff, kmb, 2 twin big shoota, 2 rokkit launcha, kmk, klaw of gork) = 374

    2000 total

    The warboss and nob w banner stay between the 2 blobs to buff them into killer tarpits of death.
    The blobs bubble wrap the morkanaut to get a 5++ and protect it from assault or short range shooting units. The blob is a mix of shootas and choppas so they can shoot as they advance taking casualites from shootas and wreck face w choppas in assault.
    The morkanaut is there to place the entie ork deplotment zone into a kff and be a huge freakin focus fire target for my opponent. Its going to advance and die but hopefully not until the end of turn 2 when everything is in melee.
    The kommandos are going to deploy and charge turn 1 and tie up the worst shooting units my opponents have. (use ere we go or command points to get a roll of 9 to get in combat) if they fail their charge they are still 4+ save units with a nasty overwatch.
    The deffkoptas are there to advance up the field and drop bombs on oppnents units with decent invul saves. 15x mortal wounds on a 5+ each from 3x koptas should do the trick. After the bombs drop tie up units in assault w them.
    The tankbustas advance into shooting range and targets the worst vehicle. One squad advances a bit closer for pistol and bomb squig range and can assault with their trukk and unit if needed to tie up the tank/walker.
    15 stormboys w zagstruk claims and clears off objectives w 16 models hopefully outnumbers my opponents models with zag and the boss w big choppa doing the heavy lifting.
    Mekguns shooting long range ap-3 and holding the home objective.
    and the morkanaut also shooting a lot of ap-3 and being a beatstikk if it makes it into assault. The good thing is if it gets into assault range the boy blob will eat any counter assault allowing the morkanaut the ability to charge first most times. 2x blobs is twice the problems.
    Outside of kommandos everything is either fearless, ld30, or could care less about casualties with the nob w banner and warboss being the final backups for the end of the game when attrition kicks in.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:02:24


    Post by: Kap'n Krump


    Solar Shock wrote:
    Yeh lobbas still look good. Still retain the ignore LOS, 48" range, so you can hammer the infantry. And with the d6 hits they can still pile wounds onto things.

    Kap'n Krump can you comment further on the SAG, was one of my favourite models and I used to regularly field a few for funny shenanigans and the occasional vortex. To me the the randomness of both the hits and the Str seem to really hurt it.


    Well, now the SAG is just str 2D6, no random table, but if you roll an 11+ the target just takes 3 mortal wounds.

    But still, it does what it's always done: puts wounds on elite infantry.

    Plus, it is actually reasonably effective against vehicles. Most vehicles are T6 to T8, so it's not hard to be able to wound them on 4s or 3s. And it gets multiple shots which do multiple damage.

    For example, I found it was putting decent wounds on leman russes, which wouldn't have ever happened before.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:15:00


    Post by: gungo


     Kap'n Krump wrote:
    Solar Shock wrote:
    Yeh lobbas still look good. Still retain the ignore LOS, 48" range, so you can hammer the infantry. And with the d6 hits they can still pile wounds onto things.

    Kap'n Krump can you comment further on the SAG, was one of my favourite models and I used to regularly field a few for funny shenanigans and the occasional vortex. To me the the randomness of both the hits and the Str seem to really hurt it.


    Well, now the SAG is just str 2D6, no random table, but if you roll an 11+ the target just takes 3 mortal wounds.

    But still, it does what it's always done: puts wounds on elite infantry.

    Plus, it is actually reasonably effective against vehicles. Most vehicles are T6 to T8, so it's not hard to be able to wound them on 4s or 3s. And it gets multiple shots which do multiple damage.

    For example, I found it was putting decent wounds on leman russes, which wouldn't have ever happened before.


    I'd say the SAG is one of the 3 units I think needs a minor fix.
    My reason is even though its our ONLY -5ap weapon the big mek is awful at shooting with a 5+bs and the the big mek w shokk atk gun is very expensive. Even if you happen to roll a 5+ to hit you don't even have a good chance of rolling well on strength 6+ or blowing yourself up 11+. Imho all the big mek needs is either a gitfinda included in its profile 4+bs or an ammo runt option. The gitfinda is likely the weaker and better option imho.

    Burnas I think are underpower compared to kommados which are cheaper, better save, better leadership, more options, and can infiltrate. you can only take 2 burnas for 5 commandos but still spam kommandos its a better option. The burnas would be better and have a place in ork lists if it had ignore cover modifers as a unit ability. especially since orks lack a unit that ignores cover modifers outside of burnabomber skorcha missiles.

    kaptin badrukk is also a unit that is a bit off. flashgits want to be in a transport (preferably battle wagon) since they no longer have a 4+sv (eavy armor). His ability doesn't work in the transport which makes him counter intuitive. Furthermore if you decide to put him on foot w flashgits the ammo runts which each flashgit can take (and should) doesn't stack w his flash git buff. The ammo runt allows 1 reroll to hit each phase, and captain can allow flashgits to reroll 1s to hit. He should allow reroll of to wound rolls of 1.

    Other than that I think every other ork option in our dex is viable and not replaceable with something else that's better in our dex. I'm not saying everything is super competitive but they will all be decent.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:18:04


    Post by: JohnU


    Spoiler:
    gungo wrote:



    This is the best TAC boy blob list I can come up with. Every unit has a job to counter something. (I'm not ready to do a dread mob list till I see the FW list.)

    Warboss (pk, atk squig, shoota) = 80
    Boss zagstruk =88

    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180

    Nob with waaagh banner (kustom shoota) = 79
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 tankbustas (pairs of rokkit pistols, 3 rokkit launcha, nob w big choppa, bomb squig) = 92
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45

    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    15 stormboys (nob w big choppa) = 129

    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Morkanaut (kff, kmb, 2 twin big shoota, 2 rokkit launcha, kmk, klaw of gork) = 374

    2000 total

    The warboss and nob w banner stay between the 2 blobs to buff them into killer tarpits of death.
    The blobs bubble wrap the morkanaut to get a 5++ and protect it from assault or short range shooting units. The blob is a mix of shootas and choppas so they can shoot as they advance taking casualites from shootas and wreck face w choppas in assault.
    The morkanaut is there to place the entie ork deplotment zone into a kff and be a huge freakin focus fire target for my opponent. Its going to advance and die but hopefully not until the end of turn 2 when everything is in melee.
    The kommandos are going to deploy and charge turn 1 and tie up the worst shooting units my opponents have. (use ere we go or command points to get a roll of 9 to get in combat) if they fail their charge they are still 4+ save units with a nasty overwatch.
    The deffkoptas are there to advance up the field and drop bombs on oppnents units with decent invul saves. 15x mortal wounds on a 5+ each from 3x koptas should do the trick. After the bombs drop tie up units in assault w them.
    The tankbustas advance into shooting range and targets the worst vehicle. One squad advances a bit closer for pistol and bomb squig range and can assault with their trukk and unit if needed to tie up the tank/walker.
    15 stormboys w zagstruk claims and clears off objectives w 16 models hopefully outnumbers my opponents models with zag and the boss w big choppa doing the heavy lifting.
    Mekguns shooting long range ap-3 and holding the home objective.
    and the morkanaut also shooting a lot of ap-3 and being a beatstikk if it makes it into assault. The good thing is if it gets into assault range the boy blob will eat any counter assault allowing the morkanaut the ability to charge first most times. 2x blobs is twice the problems.
    Outside of kommandos everything is either fearless, ld30, or could care less about casualties with the nob w banner and warboss being the final backups for the end of the game when attrition kicks in.


    The only thing I would suggest is maybe swap that one squad of Tankbustas without a trukk out for some Lootas. The way cover works now, 5 guys trying to walk up to something to get 24" range could be tough.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:19:58


    Post by: Jambles


     Palleus wrote:

    Side note: Have we gotten a look at the ork commands yet? I'm thinking that if command powers are any good, they may help limit the spam as players will have to choose between spamming, and getting a boatload of command points to spend.
    We've seen all the ways to spend command points so far, there's nothing that is unique to any faction yet including Orks. The only ones other than the standard generic three that everybody gets come from specific scenarios and battlezones.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:25:51


    Post by: gungo


     JohnU wrote:
    Spoiler:
    gungo wrote:



    This is the best TAC boy blob list I can come up with. Every unit has a job to counter something. (I'm not ready to do a dread mob list till I see the FW list.)

    Warboss (pk, atk squig, shoota) = 80
    Boss zagstruk =88

    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
    30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180

    Nob with waaagh banner (kustom shoota) = 79
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    5 tankbustas (5 rokkit launcha, nob, bomb squig) = 95
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 tankbustas (pairs of rokkit pistols, 3 rokkit launcha, nob w big choppa, bomb squig) = 92
    -trukk (big shoota, wrecking ball) = 85
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45
    5 kommandos (2 burnas, nob) = 45

    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    Deffkopta (bomb, twin shoota) = 69
    15 stormboys (nob w big choppa) = 129

    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Mekgun (kmk, 5 grots) = 48
    Morkanaut (kff, kmb, 2 twin big shoota, 2 rokkit launcha, kmk, klaw of gork) = 374

    2000 total

    The warboss and nob w banner stay between the 2 blobs to buff them into killer tarpits of death.
    The blobs bubble wrap the morkanaut to get a 5++ and protect it from assault or short range shooting units. The blob is a mix of shootas and choppas so they can shoot as they advance taking casualites from shootas and wreck face w choppas in assault.
    The morkanaut is there to place the entie ork deplotment zone into a kff and be a huge freakin focus fire target for my opponent. Its going to advance and die but hopefully not until the end of turn 2 when everything is in melee.
    The kommandos are going to deploy and charge turn 1 and tie up the worst shooting units my opponents have. (use ere we go or command points to get a roll of 9 to get in combat) if they fail their charge they are still 4+ save units with a nasty overwatch.
    The deffkoptas are there to advance up the field and drop bombs on oppnents units with decent invul saves. 15x mortal wounds on a 5+ each from 3x koptas should do the trick. After the bombs drop tie up units in assault w them.
    The tankbustas advance into shooting range and targets the worst vehicle. One squad advances a bit closer for pistol and bomb squig range and can assault with their trukk and unit if needed to tie up the tank/walker.
    15 stormboys w zagstruk claims and clears off objectives w 16 models hopefully outnumbers my opponents models with zag and the boss w big choppa doing the heavy lifting.
    Mekguns shooting long range ap-3 and holding the home objective.
    and the morkanaut also shooting a lot of ap-3 and being a beatstikk if it makes it into assault. The good thing is if it gets into assault range the boy blob will eat any counter assault allowing the morkanaut the ability to charge first most times. 2x blobs is twice the problems.
    Outside of kommandos everything is either fearless, ld30, or could care less about casualties with the nob w banner and warboss being the final backups for the end of the game when attrition kicks in.


    The only thing I would suggest is maybe swap that one squad of Tankbustas without a trukk out for some Lootas. The way cover works now, 5 guys trying to walk up to something to get 24" range could be tough.

    all 3 are in trukks.
    The first two units of tankbustas are 5 models w 1 squig for 6 models x2units or 12 models in 1 trukk.
    I split it up this way because the way explodes work is you choose ANY model in the vehicle. So I can choose 1 bomb squig from each unit and 1 tankbusta from each unit and still pass a morale test on a roll of 6 with a ld7 nob in each unit. I would need to take 5 casualties from explodes before I even fail a morale test. This makes that tankbusta vehicle into a strong mobile gun platform. firing 10x rokkits with 2x bomb squigs (if i use them) and a big shoota.
    The third unit is just 6 models in 1 trukk. 5 tankbustas and 1 squig. They aren't as durable to morale but they are meant to rush in closer disembark and get their transport into melee and charge if they absolutely need to.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:27:13


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:28:35


    Post by: warhead01


    I'd say the SAG is one of the 3 units I think needs a minor fix.
    My reason is even though its our ONLY -5ap weapon the big mek is awful at shooting with a 5+bs and the the big mek w shokk atk gun is very expensive. Even if you happen to roll a 5+ to hit you don't even have a good chance of rolling well on strength 6+ or blowing yourself up 11+. Imho all the big mek needs is either a gitfinda included in its profile 4+bs or an ammo runt option. The gitfinda is likely the weaker and better option imho.

    Are you referring o the new SAG? You don't blow your self up with the new one. On 11,12 it causes D3 Mortal wounds to the target you hit with it's shots. Unless I've misread something. Aside from the to hit roll of 5+ i looks good to me.
    Or did I misunderstand your post?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:28:50


    Post by: GrimTeef


     MangoMadness wrote:
     JohnU wrote:
    My only concern is if I'm running mixed squads of BCs/stabbas since I think all my Nobs have axes.


    Paint the stabbas as 'power axes' blue blade, lightning and such?


    This is what I was going to suggest - there are some Nob choppas that have a power cable with a screw embedding the cable into the blade - painting that with a bright blue lightning effect would get the "powered" look across really well. The stabba seems like something that Kommandos and Blood Axes would have, sneeky gits that they are.

    The only issue is that choppas themselves have a special rule now too, so it could be confusing - hence needing them painted, i guess.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:34:03


    Post by: gungo


    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.


    They are durable and have been winning battle reports. they look decent and FLG has a nice short battle report you can view. However can get very expansive quick. I think its to hard to tell right now how well they will do because it depends on how much anti vehicles flood the meta.
    combat boys I think are the bread and butter this edition because of the base rule changes however lootas and flashgits are awesome for gunboats in a battlewagon and still just as good in cover. Mek guns are good except the bubble chukka in my opinion (unless you have a lot of command points to reroll a die). burnas im not sold on at all, however your burna models have a place in your kommando unit.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:37:24


    Post by: koooaei


    gungo wrote:
     koooaei wrote:
    gungo wrote:


    Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.


    Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     hordrak wrote:
    Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


    There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them
    kooniae rokkit pistols are double the shots that's 2x reroll to hit vs ur rhino, str7 ap-2 d3 per model. Those 10 shots w reroll to hit are better than 6x plasma shots in rapid fire range at 3+ to hit. You don't buy models singles you but units. Tankbustas aren't great in melee and if your including orders you include the cost of the squad which is really only preventing gets hot in overcharged plasma just like you include the cost of a transport or weridboy. It gets really convoluted at that point however a straight squad of rokkit pistol tankbustas w 2x bomb squigs still outgun a scion squad in rapid fire range (which scions are not in when they deepstrike) and overcharged (meaning they die in a 1).
    5 tankbustas at 12in w 2x squigs does ~6.25 wounds to a rhino. 5 scions w 3 overcharged plasma 2 hotshot guns w reroll 1s order at rapidfire range does ~4 wounds. Double check my math I did it in my head.


    Only 1 in 5 can take pistols. And they're just 12 range.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:37:45


    Post by: Palleus


     Jambles wrote:
     Palleus wrote:

    Side note: Have we gotten a look at the ork commands yet? I'm thinking that if command powers are any good, they may help limit the spam as players will have to choose between spamming, and getting a boatload of command points to spend.
    We've seen all the ways to spend command points so far, there's nothing that is unique to any faction yet including Orks. The only ones other than the standard generic three that everybody gets come from specific scenarios and battlezones.


    Oh. I thought that there were more specific powers that individual keyword armies could use. Maybe that's going to be a later development when the codices come out?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:38:38


    Post by: gungo


     warhead01 wrote:
    I'd say the SAG is one of the 3 units I think needs a minor fix.
    My reason is even though its our ONLY -5ap weapon the big mek is awful at shooting with a 5+bs and the the big mek w shokk atk gun is very expensive. Even if you happen to roll a 5+ to hit you don't even have a good chance of rolling well on strength 6+ or blowing yourself up 11+. Imho all the big mek needs is either a gitfinda included in its profile 4+bs or an ammo runt option. The gitfinda is likely the weaker and better option imho.

    Are you referring o the new SAG? You don't blow your self up with the new one. On 11,12 it causes D3 Mortal wounds to the target you hit with it's shots. Unless I've misread something. Aside from the to hit roll of 5+ i looks good to me.
    Or did I misunderstand your post?


    Thanks I reread it. For some reason I read it as d3 hits to the big mek. Kind alike last edition version of blowing yourself. You are right. its d3 mortal wounds to target however I still think the bigmek w shok gun is to expensive for its ballistic skill and random strength being to low half the time. Imho a big mek simple needs a 4+ to shoot by including the gitfinda in its profile. Nothing I mention is awful. They just seem off compared to other choices for the cost.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:42:58


    Post by: skyfi


    Is my logic off here? Characters are at a huge risk being within 6" of vehicles (or embarked upon them) as if it explodes they have a 1/6 chance of receiving d6 mortal wounds? So a unit of nobs with a warboss and banner nob in a battlewafon or truck that explodes would do d6 mortal wounds to each embarked unit? So nobs take d6, warboss takes d6 and banner nob takes d6 as they are all their own units now?

    Then the biker boss and kff biker just behind the BW (within 6" of the exploding vehicle in question for arguments sake) would each take their own d6 wounds also?


    Seems scary. Kff mek can stay back but embarked characters... ouch. How to being them along with a fully mech list?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:44:06


    Post by: Jambles


     Palleus wrote:
     Jambles wrote:
     Palleus wrote:

    Side note: Have we gotten a look at the ork commands yet? I'm thinking that if command powers are any good, they may help limit the spam as players will have to choose between spamming, and getting a boatload of command points to spend.
    We've seen all the ways to spend command points so far, there's nothing that is unique to any faction yet including Orks. The only ones other than the standard generic three that everybody gets come from specific scenarios and battlezones.


    Oh. I thought that there were more specific powers that individual keyword armies could use. Maybe that's going to be a later development when the codices come out?
    I'd be really surprised if they didn't, Stratagems seem like a great way to inject some flavour into a faction!


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:47:12


    Post by: Frothmog


    Gun-crazy Showoffs: After this unit has shot in the Shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6, all models in the unit must immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit.

    This is for Gitz.. my question is can it happen more than once in a round? Like say they finish the 2nd attack and roll another 6. That could be a lot of Dakka if they continue to shoot until you either stop rolling 6s or there is nothing left within 24 inches.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:53:39


    Post by: gungo


     koooaei wrote:
    gungo wrote:
     koooaei wrote:
    gungo wrote:


    Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.


    Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     hordrak wrote:
    Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


    There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them
    kooniae rokkit pistols are double the shots that's 2x reroll to hit vs ur rhino, str7 ap-2 d3 per model. Those 10 shots w reroll to hit are better than 6x plasma shots in rapid fire range at 3+ to hit. You don't buy models singles you but units. Tankbustas aren't great in melee and if your including orders you include the cost of the squad which is really only preventing gets hot in overcharged plasma just like you include the cost of a transport or weridboy. It gets really convoluted at that point however a straight squad of rokkit pistol tankbustas w 2x bomb squigs still outgun a scion squad in rapid fire range (which scions are not in when they deepstrike) and overcharged (meaning they die in a 1).
    5 tankbustas at 12in w 2x squigs does ~6.25 wounds to a rhino. 5 scions w 3 overcharged plasma 2 hotshot guns w reroll 1s order at rapidfire range does ~4 wounds. Double check my math I did it in my head.


    Only 1 in 5 can take pistols. And they're just 12 range.

    ya got that from johnu.
    However 12 in is still better than 9in for rapid fire overcharged plasma that you were using as your base. I can run the numbers again but I still think 6 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs with 6 rokkits (122pt unit). is still better then 10 scions with 4 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol sarg at 9in with hotshot lasguns rerolling 1s from orders (123pt unit). Even stacking everything in the scions favor vs a toughness 8 3+ save rhino. Im fairly sure the tankbusta unit is still doing more wounds.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 17:54:44


    Post by: blaktoof


    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.


    None of the shooty units have really been nerfed. Some have gun up in cost, but a lot of that has to do with them becoming better. For example tankbustas went up a couple of points but now reroll all misses to hit against vehicles.

    Since Orks have mostly assault weapons, they can move+advance and still shoot but with a minus one to hit. I they need 6s to hit, if you do this a lot your shooting will be bad.

    Flash gitz now have a flat 4+ to hit instead of only when stationary. And on. 6 get to shoot a second time against the nearest enemy.

    I've played two games with half my points in walkers, all kans and dreads. The kanz underperformed and I considered them the worst units I had. Slow, need 5s to hit in assault, making them not so great-each kan averages 1 hit. Rokkits are 1 shot, hits in 4+ which is better than normal Ork shooting but also not great. Rokkits do a flat 3 damage which is nice, many things do d3- so if you get lucky you can do a lot of damage, but you won't always be lucky.

    The deff dread were very effective fire magnets and killing machines, target choice is pretty important, in many ways tarpitting is bigger in 8th. Charging a bunch of 1 wound models with a deff dread is pointless, you will kill 2-3 a turn and they might lose one to morale. The big difference is they will be able to hurt you potentially. In many ways this edition favors volume of medium strength attacks over a few high damage attacks.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    skyfi wrote:
    Is my logic off here? Characters are at a huge risk being within 6" of vehicles (or embarked upon them) as if it explodes they have a 1/6 chance of receiving d6 mortal wounds? So a unit of nobs with a warboss and banner nob in a battlewafon or truck that explodes would do d6 mortal wounds to each embarked unit? So nobs take d6, warboss takes d6 and banner nob takes d6 as they are all their own units now?

    Then the biker boss and kff biker just behind the BW (within 6" of the exploding vehicle in question for arguments sake) would each take their own d6 wounds also?


    Seems scary. Kff mek can stay back but embarked characters... ouch. How to being them along with a fully mech list?


    Not all explosion s cause the same damage, some are 1 mortal wound, some are D3.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 18:08:49


    Post by: warhead01


    gungo wrote:
     warhead01 wrote:
    I'd say the SAG is one of the 3 units I think needs a minor fix.
    My reason is even though its our ONLY -5ap weapon the big mek is awful at shooting with a 5+bs and the the big mek w shokk atk gun is very expensive. Even if you happen to roll a 5+ to hit you don't even have a good chance of rolling well on strength 6+ or blowing yourself up 11+. Imho all the big mek needs is either a gitfinda included in its profile 4+bs or an ammo runt option. The gitfinda is likely the weaker and better option imho.

    Are you referring o the new SAG? You don't blow your self up with the new one. On 11,12 it causes D3 Mortal wounds to the target you hit with it's shots. Unless I've misread something. Aside from the to hit roll of 5+ i looks good to me.
    Or did I misunderstand your post?


    Thanks I reread it. For some reason I read it as d3 hits to the big mek. Kind alike last edition version of blowing yourself. You are right. its d3 mortal wounds to target however I still think the bigmek w shok gun is to expensive for its ballistic skill and random strength being to low half the time. Imho a big mek simple needs a 4+ to shoot by including the gitfinda in its profile. Nothing I mention is awful. They just seem off compared to other choices for the cost.


    HAha I'm glad to help. I read it that way too the first time through. I'm thinking it'll be good in a troop heavy list for some punch. I've been looking at things I used to view as reliable and unreliable and the point costs. GW seem to think this is powerful, based on the points cost. I'm sure were paying for the mortal wounds, if we roll them. I'm interested in seeing just how good the random weapons actually are over the more reliable ones.
    Still have to find a balance in the list though.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 18:11:24


    Post by: koooaei


    gungo wrote:

    However 12 in is still better than 9in for rapid fire overcharged plasma that you were using as your base. I can run the numbers again but I still think 6 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs with 5 rokkits and 1 rokkit pistol (not even using the tankbusta bomb which does even more wounds than a rokkit) (122pt unit). is still better then 10 scions with 4 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol sarg at 9 in with hotshot lasguns rerolling 1s from orders (123pt unit). Even stacking everything in the scions favor vs a toughness 8 3+ save rhino. Im fairly sure the tankbusta unit is still doing more wounds.


    Scions can spam command squads. Units of 4 models - all with plasma - all deepstriking. They're very cheap and universal. There's no point in comparing a regular scion. You should compare a plasmagun scion. And he's cheaper and much killier than a tankbusta. In fact, around 2 times better. Not saying tankbustas are bad - just there are plenty of things that are way better for points. I'm not sure we should rely on tankbustas at blowing up vehicles and killing mc. They're quite expensive.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 18:21:48


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


    gungo wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.


    They are durable and have been winning battle reports. they look decent and FLG has a nice short battle report you can view. However can get very expansive quick. I think its to hard to tell right now how well they will do because it depends on how much anti vehicles flood the meta.
    combat boys I think are the bread and butter this edition because of the base rule changes however lootas and flashgits are awesome for gunboats in a battlewagon and still just as good in cover. Mek guns are good except the bubble chukka in my opinion (unless you have a lot of command points to reroll a die). burnas im not sold on at all, however your burna models have a place in your kommando unit.


    I wonder how putting:

    12 Killa Kans
    3 Deff Dreads
    1 Morkanaut
    12 Lootas

    On the table will work then.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 18:23:55


    Post by: skyfi


    Thanks blaktoof I didn't notice the difference.

    Looks like trukks do d3 wounds and wagons do d6

    Trukk may be better spot for a warboss/banner nob then?

    What builds are you guys thinking for BW gunships to cart around gits and lootas?

    Kannons/killkannon maybe + big shootas? Rollas of course? Save rokkits for somethin with a reroll?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 18:56:31


    Post by: gungo


     koooaei wrote:
    gungo wrote:

    However 12 in is still better than 9in for rapid fire overcharged plasma that you were using as your base. I can run the numbers again but I still think 6 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs with 5 rokkits and 1 rokkit pistol (not even using the tankbusta bomb which does even more wounds than a rokkit) (122pt unit). is still better then 10 scions with 4 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol sarg at 9 in with hotshot lasguns rerolling 1s from orders (123pt unit). Even stacking everything in the scions favor vs a toughness 8 3+ save rhino. Im fairly sure the tankbusta unit is still doing more wounds.


    Scions can spam command squads. Units of 4 models - all with plasma - all deepstriking. They're very cheap and universal. There's no point in comparing a regular scion. You should compare a plasmagun scion. And he's cheaper and much killier than a tankbusta. In fact, around 2 times better. Not saying tankbustas are bad - just there are plenty of things that are way better for points. I'm not sure we should rely on tankbustas at blowing up vehicles and killing mc. They're quite expensive.

    That's not how it works. You cant buy solo plasma gunners scions. You buy units in which ONLY 2 out of 5 scions can take a plasma gun or a command squad of 4 models with 4 plasma guns.
    If you want me to do the numbers for a command squad with 4 plasma guns and a tempestor prime issuing his 1 order to reroll 1s at rapid fire range (9in) to the unit I can do that, but remember the tempestor prime ALONE is worth 40 points. You cant have Everything and say its cheaper when its not. For reference bomb squigs are much better then scion plasma gunners over charged in rapid fire range w orders, tankbusta bombs are better then plasmagunners overcharged in rapid fire range w/o orders and the exact same w orders. plasmagunners are slightly better than rokkits w/o orders. If you are just comparing a straight plasma gun scion to a rokkit tankbusta YES there are better but as a squad with 2 bomb squigs. tankbustas are still slightly better vs vehicles offensively pointwise.

    I play both armies and I personally think scions are borderline overpowered because they are just great at everything. and I fully expect to see them in top tourney lists, but tankbustas are comparable to them vs targets the tankbustas should target aka vehicles.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:03:00


    Post by: koooaei


    You don't need the commander to buy a command squad iirc. And you can spam them without wasting points on troops with the new cads.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:03:20


    Post by: SemperMortis


     davou wrote:
     Perfect Organism wrote:

    You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right?


    What reason does GW have to suddenly fake a discrepancy in power in their own game? Orks have been universally killing it, tabling armies left and right so far. If gw wanted to create a fake situation, they would favor the game being balanced, not telling game shops to fake wins for orks left and right.

    MWG just posted a batrep, and orks table space marines. I added it to the list of batreps on page 1. So far orks have tabled their opponents in more than half the games played, and have only lost one game against tau.


    Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies in that BATREP. Ohh and also, they used powerlevel not points.

    Quark took 2 max squads of boyz, 6 bikers, Ghaz and a painboy. 68models.
    the Smurf took Chaplain Cassius, 2 five man squads of scouts, bolters and CCWs, 3 Centurions armed with Multi Meltas, a Dreadnought armed with a multi melta and a Vindicator. 16 models

    So....what kind of person takes a Melta heavy army against Orkz? Then the SM made the genius decision to charge his Dreadnought into a Full unit of boyz supported by Ghazkuul and the painboy. Go figure it died immediately. (Boyz had 5attacks each).

    He also left his Vindicator within Charge range and his Centurions. So after turn 2 for the Orks the game was over. Not because Orkz are super amazing but because the other guy was a Moron. You don't take specialized high damage, anti-vehicle, MC, weapons against an Ork army. You take weight of shots. You also don't leave super expensive, elite shooting units within easy charge range of Orkz. Quark made both charges with like 6in charges.

    But with that said it did highlight to me how useless blast weapons have become across the board. the fact that a vindicator is only doing D6 shots is sad. Especially when before it could easily liquidate half a mob of boyz.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:19:36


    Post by: gungo


     koooaei wrote:
    You don't need the commander to buy a command squad iirc. And you can spam them without wasting points on troops with the new cads.

    this isn't the guard thread we can take this to pms. You don't need to buy the prime... you do if you want orders.

    For reference bomb squigs are much better then scion plasma gunners over charged in rapid fire range w or w/o orders, tankbusta bombs are better then plasmagunners overcharged in rapid fire range w/o orders and the exact same with orders. plasmagunners are slightly better than rokkits w/o orders and a bit better with orders. If you are just comparing a straight plasma gun scion to a rokkit tankbusta YES there are better but as a squad with 2 bomb squigs. tankbustas are still slightly better vs vehicles offensively pointwise. The best model pointwise is bomb squigs by far.....2+ rerollable with str 8 ap-2 d6 wounds and cheaper than scions without needing rapid fire range to maximize output.

    I play both armies and I personally think scions are borderline overpowered because they are just great at everything. and I fully expect to see them in top tourney lists, but tankbustas are comparable to them vs targets the tankbustas should target aka vehicles.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:21:33


    Post by: davou


    SemperMortis wrote:


    Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies



    Hows about lets not; I made that comment in reference to someone suggesting that there's a conspiracy to make orks seem powerful when in actuality they aren't.

    If you want to criticize the armies from ONE then that's another conversation entirely. I want to know WHY GW would be colluding with game shops to make one of their armies seem more powerful when you tell me they have been in fact nerfed into the dirt 'for another eddition running'. Do you want me to quote when you suggested that GW was paying people to lie about orks? because I did save that comment in case it 'went away'

    There are like 8 batreps now on page one, orks have table the opponents in four of them, and have lost only a single one (against tau on far deployment). Two of the times orks table the opponent, they were even seized on. If you want to criticize one of them for list building, this was a list with two huge blobs of boys, and keep in mind that YOU were the one saying that boys were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move.

    So no, lets not poke a hole in what I was saying by pretending what I said was actually something else okay?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:33:37


    Post by: JohnU


    I'll believe the conspiracy when The Beast gets a model.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:34:29


    Post by: gungo


    skyfi wrote:
    Is my logic off here? Characters are at a huge risk being within 6" of vehicles (or embarked upon them) as if it explodes they have a 1/6 chance of receiving d6 mortal wounds? So a unit of nobs with a warboss and banner nob in a battlewafon or truck that explodes would do d6 mortal wounds to each embarked unit? So nobs take d6, warboss takes d6 and banner nob takes d6 as they are all their own units now?

    Then the biker boss and kff biker just behind the BW (within 6" of the exploding vehicle in question for arguments sake) would each take their own d6 wounds also?


    Seems scary. Kff mek can stay back but embarked characters... ouch. How to being them along with a fully mech list?


    Explodes is different than the rule books rule regarding embarked units in a destroyed vehicle.
    characters have very little risk embarked on a transport even if it explodes.

    when a transport is destroyed, BEFORE you disembark your units roll a d6 to see if it explodes (since it is BEFORE you disembark none of your embarked units are on the table or considered on the board)
    any units within whatever inches the rule states will take however mortal wounds the rule states (this is bad for characters on foot close to a vehicle that explodes because yes they can take mortal wounds (unless they have a squig or something to eat it)
    The embarked unit DOESNT suffer any damage from the explode result unless specifically called out.

    HOWEVER
    any vehicle that is destroyed regardless if it explodes or doesn't...
    You have to roll a die for each MODEL embarked that you set up on the battlefield. On a roll of 1 ANY model (YOUR CHOICE) is slain.
    This means a character embarked is VERY safe from explosions or destroyed vehciles as long as you have other models to eat the slain model result for a destroyed vehicle.
    The really bad part though of embarked characters is NONE of their buffs work while embarked on a vehicle (except the big meks KFF).



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:34:58


    Post by: SemperMortis


     davou wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:


    Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies



    Hows about lets not; I made that comment in reference to someone suggesting that there's a conspiracy to make orks seem powerful when in actuality they aren't.

    If you want to criticize the armies from ONE then that's another conversation entirely. I want to know WHY GW would be colluding with game shops to make one of their armies seem more powerful when you tell me they have been in fact nerfed into the dirt 'for another eddition running'. Do you want me to quote when you suggested that GW was paying people to lie about orks? because I did save that comment in case it 'went away'

    There are like 8 batreps now on page one, orks have table the opponents in four of them, and have lost only a single one (against tau on far deployment). Two of the times orks table the opponent, they were even seized on. If you want to criticize one of them for list building, this was a list with two huge blobs of boys, and keep in mind that YOU were the one saying that boys were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move.

    So no, lets not poke a hole in what I was saying by pretending what I said was actually something else okay?


    I will poke holes and I will defend that choice now since you want to make it an issue.

    First off, I was joking about GW paying FLG to say that. But who knows it might be true. As to your question of why they would do that or ask FLG to make orks sound better? Because they have suffered through 3 editions now with crap, more crap and then a big steaming pile of crap. Due to there crap treatment a lot of players have quit buying Ork models because why invest in something that has crap rules?

    I criticize the army from that batrep because YOU brought it up saying "LOOK LOOK ORKS TABLED SOMEONE!" I haven't gone over the other batreps but i will when I get some time, but for the MWG one, it would have taken terrible rolling on an epic scale to make Quark lose that battle.

    And to your point "YOU were the one saying that boyz were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move." Yes I did, AND I WAS RIGHT. The moron in that batrep MOVED CLOSER TO THE ORK PLAYER with high priced, low volume of fire models and then got charged or charged into ork boyz. So why are ork boyz trash? they are slow, as demonstrated by the fact that they can only move 11inches at maximum a turn, 1inch less then previously. The heavier stuff in MA is even slower at 10inches and they can only Waaagh if they are within range of a warboss. So yes THEY ARE SLOWER. As to their saves, the dude fired Melta gunz at him and Stormbolters, Now before the ork player wouldn't have gotten a save against Bolters so yay!, of course he didnt save a single model with that save but whatever.

    Had that Marine player had the common sense to bring along some HRoF weapons, hell even a couple of heavy bolters, or armed his Centurions with hurricane bolters instead of Multi Meltas then those crappy saves would have shown through.

    So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.

    You want proof that orkz are doing good? Wait for the first couple tournaments and then we will see, anecdotal evidence from unknown quality players doesn't prove anything, nor does providing Bat reps for uneven armies. If last edition, I took 2 Stompa's against an army of nothing but Space Marines armed with Bolters and then tabled them, would that mean orkz are doing good in 7th edition or was it a matter of the matchup?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:50:16


    Post by: Anpu-adom


    Let's not get any closer to personal attacks here, folks.
    The long and short of it is that the meta is wide open. I have a feeling that what lists will be good will vary wildly upon what other people end up taking. More games will be played during the first week of the release than have been played in the whole play-testing period... that almost guarantees that there will be things that the playtesters didn't catch. (We've already seen things like Celestine not being unique, and the Darkshrouds ability overlapping with each other... known to be unintended.)


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:52:26


    Post by: Kap'n Krump


    gungo wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

    .


    I would generally disagree with the above. Burnas got cheaper, and can use their burnas in both shooting and assault phases. D3 instead of D6 standard on most flamers, but a decent tradeoff for using in both phases in my opinion.

    Lootas got slightly more expensive, but do 2 damage and -1 rend. Not really a nerf in my opinion. Plus, you can use command points to reroll their D3 shots.

    Flash gitz are more or less the same as they were, just no randomness. But ammo runts are actually pretty good, provide a decent bonus and are extra wounds. They didn't get much better, sadly, but I don't think they got worse.

    Mek gunz seem great. Smasha guns especially did good work for me, KMKs are pretty handy, bubblechukkas are better but still silly. Even the gets hot on the KMK isn't so bad, as each mek gun comes with 5 grot gunners, so I can fry them each turn and generally be fine.

    Artillery went down to T5 5+ save, but to be fair, T7 3+ save was always ridiculously too tough. And they got 6 wounds too.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:55:04


    Post by: Alpharius


     Anpu-adom wrote:
    Let's not get any closer to personal attacks here, folks.


    This is good advice - and absolutely necessary as a condition of posting here on DAKKA DAKKA.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 19:57:05


    Post by: davou


    SemperMortis wrote:


    So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.


    So your saying that;
  • we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.


  • That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points


  • That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.


  • Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).


  • And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.


  • Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.

    **edit** alright removed a meme so as to be a bit less hostile.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:04:22


    Post by: Nazrak


     davou wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:


    So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.


    So your saying that;
  • we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.


  • That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points


  • That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.


  • Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).


  • And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.


  • Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.

    **edit** alright removed a meme so as to be a bit less hostile.

    Can I suggest, just to avoid him derailing yet another Ork thread, just clicking Ignore and then the rest of us can just get on with having a discussion?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:09:37


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


    What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

    I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:14:55


    Post by: JohnU


    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

    I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.


    The official line for now is to use the Battlewagon rules.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:18:38


    Post by: davou


     Nazrak wrote:

    Can I suggest, just to avoid him derailing yet another Ork thread, just clicking Ignore and then the rest of us can just get on with having a discussion?


    You're absolutely right; I have now and I'm sorry to have derailed a bit too.

    I think there's something very important we need to do though as a collective... We need to come up with a name for spamming trukk assaults to lock down gun lines. Anyone got any good chitty chitty bang bang puns?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:23:29


    Post by: gungo


     Kap'n Krump wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

    .


    I would generally disagree with the above. Burnas got cheaper, and can use their burnas in both shooting and assault phases. D3 instead of D6 standard on most flamers, but a decent tradeoff for using in both phases in my opinion.

    Lootas got slightly more expensive, but do 2 damage and -1 rend. Not really a nerf in my opinion. Plus, you can use command points to reroll their D3 shots.

    Flash gitz are more or less the same as they were, just no randomness. But ammo runts are actually pretty good, provide a decent bonus and are extra wounds. They didn't get much better, sadly, but I don't think they got worse.

    Mek gunz seem great. Smasha guns especially did good work for me, KMKs are pretty handy, bubblechukkas are better but still silly. Even the gets hot on the KMK isn't so bad, as each mek gun comes with 5 grot gunners, so I can fry them each turn and generally be fine.

    Artillery went down to T5 5+ save, but to be fair, T7 3+ save was always ridiculously too tough. And they got 6 wounds too.


    I agree with you however I don't think burnas are bad persay but Kommandos are a better use for burna models. The burna unit I feel needs a small buff such as ignore cover modfiers in order to be better option than kommandos.
    everything else you wrote I agree
    You can even use multiple 5 model grot gunners units to operate multiple mek guns however a single grot gunner model can not operate more than 1 mek gun. Its all a bit weirdly worded since the rules state a mekgun and 5 grot gunner squad are a single unit and then say a unit of grot gunners within 3in of a mek gun can fire it and a unit of multiple mek guns and their grot gunners are one group. Just remember even though the mek gun has ldr 6, each slain grot risk you failing morale, but they are a decent objective camping unit because ldr6 is better than a basic grot units ldr4 (w/o runtherder)


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:28:42


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


     JohnU wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

    I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.


    The official line for now is to use the Battlewagon rules.


    Well, looks like the Lootas and what not are staying put on the table then.

    I heard the Battlewagon got more expensive and I was never really sold on that as a unit before.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:43:53


    Post by: gungo


    because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:48:28


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


    gungo wrote:
    because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.



    I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 20:52:40


    Post by: DaisyWondercow


    Planning a 500 point 8th ed. game for the weekend, and since it's all new I figured I'd run my thoughts past all you weirdboyz and warbosses. Will be facing a tau player who likes his crisis suits/commanders....

    Here are some lists- broad strokes, points need fiddling.
    In Their Face list
    2 trukks
    2 units of 10ish boyz
    Biker boss with klaw
    Stormboyz

    Pros- ZOOOOOM!; trukks survive longer, especially in small games; boss is fearsome, aura bonuses
    Cons- no range, (relatively) low model count, klaw as only anti tank.

    Da Jump list
    30 boyz
    Weirdboy
    2 KMKs
    ....more stormboyz?

    Pros- 30 boyz in your face; strong(er) anti armor; fun
    Cons- kinda all over the place; weirdboy loses oomph after jump

    Other thoughts-
    Baddruk is only 84 points, and is practically a 24"KMK. Could he be worth bringing as a low point anti armor option?

    Is there a viable way to run nobz without a trukk?

    Deffkoptas seem good, but 70something is a lot of points for one model...


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 21:35:52


    Post by: JohnU


    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.



    I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.


    You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

    Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

    https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 21:37:57


    Post by: Grimmor


     hordrak wrote:
    Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?


    Im just gonna stick some wires on their Choppas, cuz i refuse to call them Powa Stabbas, they are Powa Choppas. And honestly, with how cheap the Powa Choppas are and with the improvements to the Big Choppa, the Power Klaw just seems overpriced for what it brings.

    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

    And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.


    Burnas only have d3 shots for...reasons. Gitz are basically what they were last Ed, Loots aren't good now because of how cover works, not cuz of their guns, and Mek Guns just got much more expensive.

    SemperMortis wrote:
    But with that said it did highlight to me how useless blast weapons have become across the board. the fact that a vindicator is only doing D6 shots is sad. Especially when before it could easily liquidate half a mob of boyz.



    Cannot agree more. They should have been D3+3, and then D6+3 if the target is 10+ models, might make them more viable, cuz right now, im not seeing it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 21:40:46


    Post by: Thornoo1


    I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

    Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

    A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

    Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.

    Trukks are happily resilient . One can take a few missiles and still live.

    Are the rules better? Well they played a bit faster. But you will still need to agree to the power level of games, it is still too easy to have a mismatched game simply due to not agreeing to be a douche.

    Orks will probably need to bring all their buffing characters to make them work properly.

    You'll need:
    1. A warboss for the advance then charge if you have any infantry
    2. A Mek with KFF if you have any vehicles as your vehicles will be saving on 6's or 7's v anti tank otherwise
    3. A Waaagh Banner if you are tooled for melee because when you do get into melee you'll want to hit. Interesting this made a difference to Deffrollas (we ran a trial with ad without)
    4. A Doc as you'll want that little bit of extra resilience for your elite units.

    What is good about Orks:
    1. They are very fast. With a melee focused army you should get army wide charges turn 2 without even trying.
    2. Tooled correctly they have become a viable melee focused army

    What was interesting about the rules:
    1. CPs for rerolls and ignore moral is useful
    2. Trimmed right down and much faster
    3. There will still need to be gentleman's agreements about level you are playing at (i dont mean points I mean how powerful the lists are)
    4. Unit's strengths have changed
    5. Spamming seems even more necessary now than before, pick a type of army, i.e melee or shooting, then go for it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 21:55:01


    Post by: JohnU


     DaisyWondercow wrote:
    Planning a 500 point 8th ed. game for the weekend, and since it's all new I figured I'd run my thoughts past all you weirdboyz and warbosses. Will be facing a tau player who likes his crisis suits/commanders....

    Here are some lists- broad strokes, points need fiddling.
    In Their Face list
    2 trukks
    2 units of 10ish boyz
    Biker boss with klaw
    Stormboyz

    Pros- ZOOOOOM!; trukks survive longer, especially in small games; boss is fearsome, aura bonuses
    Cons- no range, (relatively) low model count, klaw as only anti tank.
    .


    A variant on your first list that might address some of your issues. Wouldn't worry about dedicated anti-tank too much at this point level since vehicles are fairly pricey. You have the speed to cross the board so range isn't as big a deal either.

    Patrol Detachment

    Biker Boss w/ Big Choppa and Kustom shoota 99
    11 Boyz, Nob w/ Big Choppa, Trukk w/ Big Shoota and Wrecking Ball 151
    30 Stormboyz, Nob w/ Big choppa 249
    499
    Gives you more models, Stormboyz can be bubble wrap against deep strikers if needed, but can get around the (presumably) 4x4 in a hurry. Flat 2 damage from BCs is good against elite troops and still decent against lighter vehicles. Boss is putting out 10 shots and is fast enough to keep up with the Stormboyz.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 22:23:25


    Post by: JimOnMars


    Thornoo1 wrote:
    I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

    Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

    A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

    Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.



    This might be good for us in a way. If Knights become the new scatbikes, everyone will be taking more anti-tank, which means on the non-knight games many armies won't be able to deal with hordes.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 22:29:26


    Post by: Kap'n Krump


    I think the koncept of power stabbas are cute, but I'm not sure I like them in practice. I guess I'm just a fan of the classic big choppa/power klaw combo.

    I guess it's decent for the price, but I'd prefer to pay a little more and get a D2 weapon and better strength, if worse AP.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 22:52:31


    Post by: The Imperial Answer


     JohnU wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.



    I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.


    You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

    Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

    https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017


    Looks like the Mek Boy Junka is gone too.

    I'm going to miss that unit.

    Interestingly, it also doesn't have the Mega Dread down there.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 23:02:41


    Post by: gungo


     JimOnMars wrote:
    Thornoo1 wrote:
    I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

    Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

    A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

    Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.



    This might be good for us in a way. If Knights become the new scatbikes, everyone will be taking more anti-tank, which means on the non-knight games many armies won't be able to deal with hordes.

    Knights fail on missions they can't reliably claim an objective. So they need to table you.
    If they take triple knight list they don't have points for much of any infantry. If they take one knight a list with decent anti vehicles can kill it. Several units of tank bustas, kmk, nauts, lootas etc.

    On the flip side I was thinking how the bubblechukks might be good? If you take a army with a lot of command points and can devote 3-4 command points to a bubble chukka a game. You can do alot of damage w it. Roll 4 die, reroll the lowest w cp if needed. Always Take the next lowest and put it into ap. As long as you didn't roll triple 1s or 1/1/2 the bubble chukka can do a lot of damage on average. The problem is the bubble chukka requires command points to be fairly reliable. Someone should test a unit of 2 of them out and feed them your command points. I bet you they can be brutal. Try it out yourself w 4 dice rerolling 1. The chukka is the best use of command points and powerful. Probably why it's the second highest priced weapon.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
     JohnU wrote:
    The Imperial Answer wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.



    I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.


    You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

    Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

    https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017


    Looks like the Mek Boy Junka is gone too.

    I'm going to miss that unit.

    Interestingly, it also doesn't have the Mega Dread down there.

    The description of the book says 19 data sheets for orks but the index only has like 14. The mega dread is still sold leading me to believe the data sheet has been combined under the meka dread section.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/07 23:22:04


    Post by: JohnU


    Yeah, if there's still a model for it, I definitely expect there to still be rules.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 01:54:35


    Post by: SemperMortis


     davou wrote:


    So your saying that;
    we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.

    So far the only arguments any of you have offered to contradict those point values is "You cant compare 7th values to 8th" which is a wonderful argument to derail the conversation, usually you follow with "You can't compare other armies to orks". So if anyone is trying to not concede a point I would politely suggest you look in a mirror. As for the loads of people disagreeing with me? from what ive seen its about 1/3. 1/3rd agree, 1/3rd disagree and 1/3rd don't care.

     davou wrote:
  • That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points

  • I don't misrepresent, I will admit I don't have the exact point costs in front of me and messed up the values a couple of times. But generally my point still remains valid with the different price for weapons or units. I have yet to see anyone use actual math to show how those Ork units i singled out got better or failing that got more competitive compared to similar units from last edition. IE Battlewagon Vs Predator or Trukk Vs Rhino.

     davou wrote:
  • That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.

  • Actually literally the opposite of what I suggested. I said specifically in the case of the Miniwargaming Batrep that the Space Marine opponent was a Moron for bringing a Melta Spam list against an Ork army. I think the Ork player had something like 68 models and the SM player had 16ish? And then to exacerbate that poor list building he decided it would be a good idea to take a Melta Dread and charge a unit of boyz supported by a painboy and Ghaz. He also left Centurion and a Vindicator in easy charge range of the orks 2nd turn when he could have easily backed up. Quark only managed to get successful charges off because he was so close to his opponent. One of them was a 6 inch charge or less.

     davou wrote:
  • Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).

  • I'm not going to suggest the dice were "spiked". but if the Ork player boasts about how his opponent missed 90% of the time or how his Painboy's FNP saved 20 boyz in a row with 6+ Saves its going to be a bit off and I would suggest that is an outlier and not necessarily the norm.

     davou wrote:
  • And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.

  • I guess the joke was to much for you to handle. From now on i'll make sure to mention when im trying to be flippant or humorous.

     davou wrote:
    Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.


    I'm not hostile to anyone, I am attempting to show statistical evidence about the difference between 7th edition orks which were terrible and 8th edition orks which are somehow worse at shooting, lost cover saves almost entirely, had a host of rule changes which marginally help them while greatly helping other factions and cost significantly more but somehow are going to be better....

    So to summarize, I will continue to post and poke holes in strawman arguments or invalid points.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 02:23:06


    Post by: Dr.Duck


    Even if we get a looted wagon I dont think its going to have a gud role any more with the 8 edition changes.

    I would typically take them for access to large AOEs but I dont see that happening any more.

    What would be neat tho is if it can take a few CC upgrades and be a smaller version of BW. Further armor and durability options might make it a go to transport but we will have to wait and see


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 02:47:38


    Post by: fe40k


    How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

    There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 03:34:45


    Post by: JimOnMars


    fe40k wrote:
    How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

    There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.

    It depends on how many tankbustas you have

    Mine are all kitbashed boyz, and I have about 17 or so. The official model is quite pricey ($9 each) so I don't know too many people that use them.

    I intend to use a lot of them in trukks are bws, along with lootas. a very heavy tank list would be a problem, but not just for us.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 03:47:14


    Post by: SemperMortis


    fe40k wrote:
    How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

    There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.


    Nobz with Big Choppas are going to do work. S7 with -1 AP and auto 2 damage. Nobz got cheaper since they come stock with 4+ armor. Big Choppas are only 9pts (should still be 5 but whatever) so you can field almost 3 of them for the price of a single Power Klaw. Since most vehicles are T6-8 you are really only missing out on T8. So a unit of 5 Nobz all with Big Choppas is going to put out 15 S7 attacks hitting on 3s so 10 hits and Against T6 thats 6-7 wounds, T7 thats 5wounds and T8 3wounds. But they are all -1 to armor and 2dmg each. So you are going to be ok with that.

    Conversely if your trying to kill from range....your SOL. Lootas are still a good option but you pretty much HAVE TO buy them a trukk or a battlewagon to act as a mobile bunker, otherwise they will die whenever someone sneezes at them. And unfortunately they are still just hard to aim autocannons.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 03:56:50


    Post by: gungo


    Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
    20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

    Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

    2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

    Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

    For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 04:20:31


    Post by: JimOnMars


    gungo wrote:
    Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
    20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

    Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

    2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

    Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

    For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

    We'll see what the rules for the big trakk are...maybe a little tougher than a trukk and 12 capacity. Would be perfect for a bustas.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 04:48:53


    Post by: Ashkayel


    gungo wrote:
    Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
    20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

    Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

    2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

    Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

    For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

    What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models? Tankbusta kit squigs? AoS grot squig herders? Kromlech Gnaws herd? I guess Kromlech's is our best bet but I don't really like the models...

    http://bitsofwar.com/home/196-gnaws-herd.html


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 04:59:22


    Post by: fe40k


    @Gungo: I didn't think about MSU of Tankbustas; I was going to take 10+2 squigs (so the same thing), but MSU is better in one trukk.

    I guess I'll have to take some Tankbustas and do some testing - they still seem a bit expensive for what they do; but it's what we got.

    Also @Ashkayel: Nice link, I'l probably have to pick some squigs up through there.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 06:27:54


    Post by: Jidmah


    Ashkayel wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
    20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

    Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

    2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

    Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

    For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

    What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models? Tankbusta kit squigs? AoS grot squig herders? Kromlech Gnaws herd? I guess Kromlech's is our best bet but I don't really like the models...

    http://bitsofwar.com/home/196-gnaws-herd.html


    Well, I plan on using that one grot from the gretchin box with the stikkbomb in hand and just add whatever explosives i can find in my bits box - no one is going to argue about an exploding grot not being a squig


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 06:55:11


    Post by: Clang


    Agreed, grots carrying armloads of dynamite (or other explosives) seem a pretty easy conversion option for counts-as bomb squigs, and unlikely to offend any purists.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 07:04:44


    Post by: Soss


    Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 07:24:43


    Post by: koooaei


     Kap'n Krump wrote:
    Powa stabba...
    I guess it's decent for the price, but I'd prefer to pay a little more and get a D2 weapon and better strength, if worse AP.


    We can just calculate it.

    Powa Stabba Nob vs Bigchoppa Nob vs PK nob-- killiness per point

    Dead Meq:
    0.88 vs 0.66 vs 1.04 -- 0.044 vs 0.026 vs 0.025

    Dead Meq with 2 wounds:
    0.44 vs 0.66 vs 1/3 for 0.52 and 2/3 for 1.04 -- 0.022 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.012 or 2/3 for 0.025

    Dead biker meq with 2 wounds:
    0.33 vs 0.66 vs 1/3 for 0.52 and 2/3 for 1.04 -- 0.010 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.012 or 2/3 for 0.025

    Dead teq with 2 wounds:
    0.33 vs 0.44 vs 1/3 for 0.42 and 2/3 for 0.83 -- 0.010 vs 0.017 vs 1/3 for 0.010 or 2/3 for 0.020

    Wounds vs a rhino:
    0.44 vs 1.00 vs 1/3 for 0.83 and 1/3 for 1.67 and 1/3 for 2.50 --- 0.022 vs 0.038 vs 1/3 for 0.020 and 1/3 for 0.040 and 1/3 for 0.059
    3*2/3
    Wounds vs a Knight:
    0.44 vs 0.67 vs 1/3 for 0.83 and 1/3 for 1.67 and 1/3 for 2.50 --- 0.022 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.020 and 1/3 for 0.040 and 1/3 for 0.059





    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    if you don't want to get into numbers:
    Power klaw is still statistically the killiest vs stuff w/o invul. Point-for-point, powa stabbas are best at killing most 1-wound stuff with 5+ save or better (and w/o invuln). Big choppas are best at killing 2-wound stuff point-for point and klaws go ahead vs knight-equal enemies.

    All in all, we will still struggle to kill larger tougher enemies before they kill us cause to one-shot a knight, you need 600 pts of klaw nobz or 923 pt of bigchoppa nobz to strike simultaniously. That's 15 klaw nobz or 35.5 bigchoppa nobz - not the most point-efficient and safe squad to have around. If you only have to choose from a bc and a pk for a single model - like nob squad leader, the klaw is still the preferable choice if you have points. If you have squads of nobz, you can go for a mix. But i'd probably avoid power klaws foк nob squads simply because they loose durability. I'd go for a mix of stabbas and bigchoppas.

    Can anyone calculate the effectiveness of a banner nob? When will he start being benefical buffing something like meganobz or nobz?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 07:56:38


    Post by: MangoMadness


    Ashkayel wrote:
    What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models?


    My orks use alot of battlefield salvage in their vehicles and weapons so I was thinking of converting Tau Drones with some bombs attached


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     koooaei wrote:

    Power klaw is still statistically the killiest vs stuff w/o invul.


    How much better is the killsaw over the power klaw? only 3 points different but extra -2 AP must be significant against MEQ and vehicles


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 08:40:00


    Post by: fe40k


    @MangoMadness; Haven't mathed out the killsaw yet, but -2 AP sounds significant, especially for fighting vehicles.

    Asking the Orks - how would we fight a 1+ Baneblade/other super heavy tank/walker list?

    One of the IG players threw out a Triple Baneblade list at 2000 points; that looks like it would stomp a lot more than you'd think into the ground - so much heavy anti-armor/elites firepower from the cannons; then a mass of bolters and otherjunk on top of it (and 9 5+ melee attacks too). Can't stop it with melee, if you can even make it there... 26 wounds, T8, 3+ armor save is brutal. They'd pretty much always get the first turn too, due to total unit counts.

    Maybe a mixed Morkanaut/Gorkanaut list could fight it; if you have an opportunity to get to melee (it's faster than you too, at 10" to 8" (but on a small tablesize, maybe that's not so important)). Maybe Mek Gunz/Smasha Guns could fight it too, but they're pricey, and you'd need to get pretty lucky.

    Sure, the triple baneblade list is an "all in" kind of list; but it looks legit this edition. Especially when taken to a tournament, who could prepare for that with a reasonable list?

    Edit: Maybe Orks will get some better/equivalent options in terms of fielding and answering such super heavy units, when the Forgeworld books come out.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 09:16:33


    Post by: Solar Shock


    Its hard to tell. a triple banebalde sounds absolutely horrible to play against. But we have no idea yet what the meta will evolve to. And not to mention all the netlists which will invariably alter the local metas.

    How about flier spam? The wazbom jet has a teleport mega-blasta/KMK, smasha and shootas. Yeh its not perfect. But for example you could effectively pile on wounds. Then have a second wazbom that has the teleblasta, so once below 6W you can fish for those instant-kills. Just spit balling. But to be honest, I think with the way the detatchments work even triple baneblade will have some viable counter lists.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 09:20:47


    Post by: little-killer


    Solar Shock wrote:
    Its hard to tell. a triple banebalde sounds absolutely horrible to play against. But we have no idea yet what the meta will evolve to. And not to mention all the netlists which will invariably alter the local metas.

    How about flier spam? The wazbom jet has a teleport mega-blasta/KMK, smasha and shootas. Yeh its not perfect. But for example you could effectively pile on wounds. Then have a second wazbom that has the teleblasta, so once below 6W you can fish for those instant-kills. Just spit balling. But to be honest, I think with the way the detatchments work even triple baneblade will have some viable counter lists.

    Try ghazkhull, 2XX boyz and some weirdboy, will be fun (i assume you choose your power which will be the jump spell).

    Or go with 2 stompas and one bigmek with kff.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 09:31:11


    Post by: Grimmor


    KMK everywhere You can probably get like 15 KMKs for his one Baneblade and then cover them with a KFF. Shell him into oblivion.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 09:40:10


    Post by: Solar Shock


    Can you guys link where you are reading point costs? There was a link in the old thread. But at the moment I cant find it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 11:06:41


    Post by: Ashkayel


    Solar Shock wrote:
    Can you guys link where you are reading point costs? There was a link in the old thread. But at the moment I cant find it.
    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4IGo22sDo4zdEtrRmEyelg2TkU

    I agree that grots carrying bombshells and other stuff like T'au drones will do the job marvelously for bomb squigs! A friend just gave me a devilfish with 2 drones to loot as a trukk/LW/BW!


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 11:13:53


    Post by: MangoMadness


    Talking about points (i dont have the link sorry) is it just me or is everyone planning on writing the points in the unit entries instead of referencing the back of the book all the time?


    Another thing - Kommandos

    People have already mentioned they are cheap at 45 points, they also seem to be a nice combo in a trukk with a tankbuster unit with 2 squigs (7 models)

    Its cheap and fragile but if the transport blows up then they can take the wounds instead of the more valuable tank busters. Also they can easily disembark on T2/3 and do a little bit of damage in HTH with the 2 burners and maybe the boss nob with big choppa at an extra 9 points.

    Even without using their infiltration rule i think they might have a support role in the main line.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 11:24:13


    Post by: koooaei


    Meganobz. Let's calculate their killiness vs rhinos and knights. We'll also count in k-shoota and k-skorcha separately. I don't think anyone will take rokkits - 20 pts is a stiff price to pay for them - but let's still calculate it. My gut feeling is that a k-skorcha is better at killing tanks than a k-rokkit.
    We'll also calculate pk as having an average damage of 2 as it doesn't matter that much vs targets with lots of wounds. Sure, they might be more effective if you count in command point re-rolls but i'll not do it here.

    Klaw vs Killsaw vs Double Killsaw
    Vs anything with T6-11 and 3+ armor
    1.67 vs 2.50 vs 2.67

    K-shoota vs K-skorcha shooting both weapons vs k-rokkit shooting a rokkit only.
    VS t6-7
    0.15 vs 0,62 vs 0.44

    VS t8
    0.07 vs 0,60 vs 0.33

    Killiness per point of a model:

    VS t6-7
    pk+kshoota - 0.034
    pk + kskorcha - 0.033
    pk + krokkit - 0.30

    killsaw + kshoota - 0.047
    killsaw + kskorcha - 0.044
    killsaw + krokkit - 0.041

    VS t8
    pk+kshoota - 0.031
    pk + kskorcha - 0.033
    pk + krokkit - 0.030

    killsaw + kshoota - 0.046
    killsaw + kskorcha - 0.044
    killsaw + krokkit - 0.039

    2 killsaws - 0.043

    Some interesting results here.
    Killsaw is always much better than a pk vs 3+ armor or higher. Secondary weapon doesn't mean much at killing vehicles point-for-point but if you got to concentrate power, like when you don't have enough space or models, go for k-skorcha. If you can have more manz, go for k-shoota - it's the best at killing vehicles point-for-point. K-rokkit is the worst.

    Tlr - Always take a killsaw. 2 killsaws vs a killsaw + another weapon are not any different unless you also have a banner nob, in which case 2 killsaws go ahead. Also, killsaws are not affected by cover. Other than you get lower chances of actually doing damage cause of a failed charge. But in this case all this calculations are pretty irrelevant anywayz.

    K-rokkits are the worst of all shooting weapons at pretty much any job other than shooting from far away.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 11:38:30


    Post by: Jidmah


    Soss wrote:
    Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

    Short answer: Yes, you can.

    Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 12:22:22


    Post by: little-killer


     Jidmah wrote:
    Soss wrote:
    Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

    Short answer: Yes, you can.

    Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.


    They should put that in the core rules? or you were joking about taking fortifications for other armies.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 12:42:00


    Post by: Glitcha


    Played a game list night against a big bug list. Won the game 8-1. Below is my list

    Spearhead detachment
    HQ
    Big mek + KFF + grot oiler < deployed in Gorkanaut

    Big mek in mega armor + KFF + Killsaw + grot oiler

    Heavy support
    Gorkanaut
    Morkanaut
    3 deff dreads (dread with 3 arms and rokket, dread with 2 arms and 2 skorchas, dread with 2 arms and 2 big shootas)
    Squad of 6 Kill Kans (4 big shootas, skorcha, grotzooka)
    Squad of 10 lootas + spanner boy

    Elite
    Burna boyz (2 spannerz 3 burnas) < deployed inside Morkanaut

    The theme for this list is dreads and big stompy robots. Also wanted to see how well the repair ability works. Oddly enough this even works in CC now. Big mek has a 3" bubble of repair/heal ability. I deployed him in a ring of Kill kans. Gives the Kans a 5++ and shields my big mek in mega armor from being shoot at and assaulted. Yep that's right, big mek on foot running solo. Then he can stand back and repair the kans as they fight or walk over to any of the other vehicles and repair them. (d3+1 wounds a turn with a grot oiler) You can only fix 1 kan at a time.

    Kans are beast in CC. Now you only hit on a 5+, but you can take a squad of 6 of them now! If the squad is more than 3, each can gets 1 more attack. This gives each kan 4 attacks at str 8 ap -3 for 3 dmg.

    My opponent got a prime with a unit of warriors in a tunnel. They popped up and then assaulted me. The warriros killed 1 of my mek units that got out of the morkanaut to repair it. (Kind of stupid, but its how its done.) The Prime made it into combat with the Gorkanaut. He punched first and did 6 wounds. I punched back with the klaw of gork in crush mode and did 18 wounds of damage to him. Gorkanaut and Morkanaut are amazing in combat. You can either crush for str x2 ap-4 dmg 6 4-6 attacks or you can smash for 12-18 str users ap -2 dmg 2 each. If you are fighting big stuff, I'd crush for big damage. If you are fighting infantry, including terminators, smash!

    Command points are going to key for the orks getting our timing right for assaults. I would always save 1 point for the reroll.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 12:46:58


    Post by: chaddwick2005


    little-killer wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Soss wrote:
    Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

    Short answer: Yes, you can.

    Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.


    They should put that in the core rules? or you were joking about taking fortifications for other armies.


    Fortifications in the back of the imperium 2 book can be taken by any army.

    Void Shield Generator gives a 4++ bubble, already planning on covering a bunch of orks with it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 12:48:48


    Post by: DoomMouse


    Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 12:54:31


    Post by: little-killer


     DoomMouse wrote:
    Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition

    add ghazkhull and weirdboy and waaaaaaghhhh!!!


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:00:46


    Post by: koooaei


     Glitcha wrote:

    Kans...more than 3


    How did they handle morale issues? IIRC they don't benefit from mob rule. So if you loose a couple kans, a few more can run away.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    little-killer wrote:
     DoomMouse wrote:
    Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition

    add ghazkhull and weirdboy and waaaaaaghhhh!!!


    It's hard to say if it's worth taking more than one wierdboy cause you can't cast same power more than once per phase. Painboss can heal up inevitable damage from perils and even protect from a wound with 6+++. I might be wrong but fnp works in a way that you save vs damage suffered, so to save an overcharged plasma you need to pass two 6+ saves.

    Take stormboyz - they fit the greentide theme and are pretty good.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:20:21


    Post by: gungo


    Off topic but back to fortifications. Where are the rules for the shadow war terrain?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:23:38


    Post by: JohnU


    Well if you're feeling lucky (and silly) you can have one weirdboy Warpath Ghazzy, the other one Jump him, then hope those charge rolls work out for you. With the warlord trait he has 8 attacks on the charge.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:33:29


    Post by: zend


    So wait, you can only cast the same spell once per phase period or once per character that knows it?

    Also can Koptas turbo boost and drop their bomms in the same turn?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:48:31


    Post by: JohnU


    zend wrote:
    So wait, you can only cast the same spell once per phase period or once per character that knows it?

    Also can Koptas turbo boost and drop their bomms in the same turn?


    You can only attempt to manifest the power once per turn, so if Weirdboy A fails to cast Da Jump Weirdboy B can't try on the same turn. The exception is Smite, which has no limits.

    Advancing is just part of your movement, so you can still use your bomm (but can't charge later).


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:53:15


    Post by: gungo


    Other than spite once per turn.

    Koptas can advance and drop bombs. Advance is part of movement during the movement phase. You roll for advance (if required)add it to movement and then move your model up to that amount. This is why a 3-4x kopta squad dropping bombs on a unit of 5+ terminators, bikers or equivilant first turn is funny. As the unit takes ~7 mortal wounds w no saves or wound rolls. However they are not so good vs single model units such as imperial knights.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 13:55:35


    Post by: little-killer



    little-killer wrote:
     DoomMouse wrote:
    Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition

    add ghazkhull and weirdboy and waaaaaaghhhh!!!


    It's hard to say if it's worth taking more than one wierdboy cause you can't cast same power more than once per phase. Painboss can heal up inevitable damage from perils and even protect from a wound with 6+++. I might be wrong but fnp works in a way that you save vs damage suffered, so to save an overcharged plasma you need to pass two 6+ saves.

    Take stormboyz - they fit the greentide theme and are pretty good.


    Not sure about that, it said a psyker cannot manifest a psychic power twice, for me it means if you can manifest 2 powers with one psyker, you can't do the same spell twice, but you can do spell A with psyker 1 and spell A with psyker 2 but not Spell A and spell A with only psyker 1.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 14:16:14


    Post by: Dojo


    Soss wrote:
    Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.


    I did the exact same thing, lootas went inside that.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 14:20:35


    Post by: Jidmah


    little-killer wrote:They should put that in the core rules? or you were joking about taking fortifications for other armies.

    Yes, they should. I own an aegis defense line and tried to find its rules anywhere so I skipped through all the indexes to find them.
    All fortifications have "faction: unalligned" so you can use them in any army.
    The only joke is that anybody but non-marine imperials needs to buy an extra book to field them.

    DoomMouse wrote:Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition

    Currently it seems like lots of boyz+characters is pretty viable, so with a couple of pain boyz, warbosses, banner nobz and maybe something carrying a KFF your should be good to go. From what I've read so far you should just make sure to bring something to handle units with high T and lots of wounds.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 14:43:41


    Post by: Pedroig


    little-killer wrote:

    little-killer wrote:
     DoomMouse wrote:

    Not sure about that, it said a psyker cannot manifest a psychic power twice, for me it means if you can manifest 2 powers with one psyker, you can't do the same spell twice, but you can do spell A with psyker 1 and spell A with psyker 2 but not Spell A and spell A with only psyker 1.


    Matched play only allows one manifest attempt per psychic phase, versus once per psyker. The exception is Smite. pg. 215 in the highlight box.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 14:55:41


    Post by: skyfi


    Curious what y'all think of grots this edition with obj capping at # of models? Would a brigade list full of kans bws full of grots and maybe a moral/gorkanot? Like 12+ command points a game 12 kans 2 big walkers 3 kff mek in ma? Supported with small units of commandos and outflanking fast attack? Could a bw be a viable gun ship / melee unit while carrying around "useless" grots? Who now can get +1 attack if 20+ models and can wound anything in the game? Plus armed with pistols they can still fire their guns at whoever the BW is meleeinf?

    Trying to think of some out of the box competitive options maybe. Like, who cares if them the grots kill enemy or not? Last turn jump out on objectives from your hopefully still alive fleet of transports and cap obj? Even in a normal combined arms list I think a BW full of cheap grots being delivered to outnumber guardsmen on a obj is a good idea



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    A second thought


    I only saw one mission in my read thru that unit type had any bearing on scoring an obj?? Only big guns never tire where a heavy caps the obj regardless of being outnumbered ? If that's to be an expected mission in tourney, BW mork gork kans gits lootas seem to have a highlighted importance? Did I miss missions aside from this one where "heavy" is more important?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 15:02:33


    Post by: JohnU


    The 20+ Grot ability is +1 to hit (so +4). They also don't have mob rule so if you're planning on using bigger groups you're gonna want a Runtherd with them.

    I still like them as cheap deepstrike area denial or chaff for eating charges, but for now it's not a Grot edition for me.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 15:09:23


    Post by: little-killer


    Pedroig wrote:
    little-killer wrote:

    little-killer wrote:
     DoomMouse wrote:

    Not sure about that, it said a psyker cannot manifest a psychic power twice, for me it means if you can manifest 2 powers with one psyker, you can't do the same spell twice, but you can do spell A with psyker 1 and spell A with psyker 2 but not Spell A and spell A with only psyker 1.


    Matched play only allows one manifest attempt per psychic phase, versus once per psyker. The exception is Smite. pg. 215 in the highlight box.



    Ah yeah found it, they don't say that in the core rules so yeah mb,

    feth that seemed really fun to tp many units in one turn


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 15:57:04


    Post by: GrimTeef


     Glitcha wrote:
    Played a game list night against a big bug list. Won the game 8-1. Below is my list

    Spearhead detachment
    HQ
    Big mek + KFF + grot oiler < deployed in Gorkanaut

    Big mek in mega armor + KFF + Killsaw + grot oiler

    Heavy support
    Gorkanaut
    Morkanaut
    3 deff dreads (dread with 3 arms and rokket, dread with 2 arms and 2 skorchas, dread with 2 arms and 2 big shootas)
    Squad of 6 Kill Kans (4 big shootas, skorcha, grotzooka)
    Squad of 10 lootas + spanner boy

    Elite
    Burna boyz (2 spannerz 3 burnas) < deployed inside Morkanaut

    The theme for this list is dreads and big stompy robots. Also wanted to see how well the repair ability works. Oddly enough this even works in CC now. Big mek has a 3" bubble of repair/heal ability. I deployed him in a ring of Kill kans. Gives the Kans a 5++ and shields my big mek in mega armor from being shoot at and assaulted. Yep that's right, big mek on foot running solo. Then he can stand back and repair the kans as they fight or walk over to any of the other vehicles and repair them. (d3+1 wounds a turn with a grot oiler) You can only fix 1 kan at a time.

    Kans are beast in CC. Now you only hit on a 5+, but you can take a squad of 6 of them now! If the squad is more than 3, each can gets 1 more attack. This gives each kan 4 attacks at str 8 ap -3 for 3 dmg.

    My opponent got a prime with a unit of warriors in a tunnel. They popped up and then assaulted me. The warriros killed 1 of my mek units that got out of the morkanaut to repair it. (Kind of stupid, but its how its done.) The Prime made it into combat with the Gorkanaut. He punched first and did 6 wounds. I punched back with the klaw of gork in crush mode and did 18 wounds of damage to him. Gorkanaut and Morkanaut are amazing in combat. You can either crush for str x2 ap-4 dmg 6 4-6 attacks or you can smash for 12-18 str users ap -2 dmg 2 each. If you are fighting big stuff, I'd crush for big damage. If you are fighting infantry, including terminators, smash!

    Command points are going to key for the orks getting our timing right for assaults. I would always save 1 point for the reroll.


    Thanks for your list and the game breakdown. This is close to what I am considering running for my first 8th-ed ork lists, and am glad that from your report and other battle reports I've seen that Dread Mob is back and actually viable.

    I've heard mixed stories on the effectiveness of Kanz. It seems that they are at least 50-50 though, so I'm sure I'll be running at least 6 of them (9maybe 9 or 12, depending on points).

    One good thing to note is that it would be worthwhile to run a Nob with Waaagh Banner near them, as Kanz benefit from the +1 to hit from the Banner, since it affects <Clan> units, not just orks. This would add quite a bit of hitting power to a unit of 3+ kanz getting that extra attack.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 15:58:36


    Post by: SemperMortis


    For Grots there ability is +1 to hit. Does anyone know if that means WS or BS?

    Honestly it won't matter to much for shooting since they still can't take any guns worth a damn :(

    On the flipside I am starting to think running a banner nob behind 2 units of Killa Kanz with maybe a big mek or two with KFFs might be a good idea. 6 Kanz would then be 4 attacks each hitting on 4s instead of 5s and with the Big Mek nearby he can heal and save them from anti tank weapons


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 16:11:31


    Post by: Latro_


    SemperMortis wrote:
    For Grots there ability is +1 to hit. Does anyone know if that means WS or BS?

    Honestly it won't matter to much for shooting since they still can't take any guns worth a damn :(

    On the flipside I am starting to think running a banner nob behind 2 units of Killa Kanz with maybe a big mek or two with KFFs might be a good idea. 6 Kanz would then be 4 attacks each hitting on 4s instead of 5s and with the Big Mek nearby he can heal and save them from anti tank weapons


    It specifically says hit rolls, so 2o+ CC its 4's shooting its 3's


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 16:48:38


    Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


    If you taking a wagon for the purposes of a "gun boat" and stuffing in some lootas or gitz, does it make sense to add as much firepower to the wagon as possible? Rokkits used to be 5points each so adding 4 was only 20. Now adding 4 rokkits is 48 points! thats almost 2 powerklaws!! Not sure its worth it. And I have always been underhwlmed by the kill kannon, but I guess I/we should try it out a few times before falling back on old assumptions.

    I'm wondering if I should trick out wagons for max dakka or bare bones mobile firing platform. You gits have any thoughts on this?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 16:52:38


    Post by: JohnU


    Too rich for my blood. Since we don't need weapons to help ward off immobilize results I'm keeping mine naked with a deff rolla at most.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 16:59:55


    Post by: Sledgio


     GrimTeef wrote:
     Glitcha wrote:
    Played a game list night against a big bug list. Won the game 8-1. Below is my list

    Spearhead detachment
    HQ
    Big mek + KFF + grot oiler < deployed in Gorkanaut

    Big mek in mega armor + KFF + Killsaw + grot oiler

    Heavy support
    Gorkanaut
    Morkanaut
    3 deff dreads (dread with 3 arms and rokket, dread with 2 arms and 2 skorchas, dread with 2 arms and 2 big shootas)
    Squad of 6 Kill Kans (4 big shootas, skorcha, grotzooka)
    Squad of 10 lootas + spanner boy

    Elite
    Burna boyz (2 spannerz 3 burnas) < deployed inside Morkanaut

    The theme for this list is dreads and big stompy robots. Also wanted to see how well the repair ability works. Oddly enough this even works in CC now. Big mek has a 3" bubble of repair/heal ability. I deployed him in a ring of Kill kans. Gives the Kans a 5++ and shields my big mek in mega armor from being shoot at and assaulted. Yep that's right, big mek on foot running solo. Then he can stand back and repair the kans as they fight or walk over to any of the other vehicles and repair them. (d3+1 wounds a turn with a grot oiler) You can only fix 1 kan at a time.

    Kans are beast in CC. Now you only hit on a 5+, but you can take a squad of 6 of them now! If the squad is more than 3, each can gets 1 more attack. This gives each kan 4 attacks at str 8 ap -3 for 3 dmg.

    My opponent got a prime with a unit of warriors in a tunnel. They popped up and then assaulted me. The warriros killed 1 of my mek units that got out of the morkanaut to repair it. (Kind of stupid, but its how its done.) The Prime made it into combat with the Gorkanaut. He punched first and did 6 wounds. I punched back with the klaw of gork in crush mode and did 18 wounds of damage to him. Gorkanaut and Morkanaut are amazing in combat. You can either crush for str x2 ap-4 dmg 6 4-6 attacks or you can smash for 12-18 str users ap -2 dmg 2 each. If you are fighting big stuff, I'd crush for big damage. If you are fighting infantry, including terminators, smash!

    Command points are going to key for the orks getting our timing right for assaults. I would always save 1 point for the reroll.


    Thanks for your list and the game breakdown. This is close to what I am considering running for my first 8th-ed ork lists, and am glad that from your report and other battle reports I've seen that Dread Mob is back and actually viable.

    I've heard mixed stories on the effectiveness of Kanz. It seems that they are at least 50-50 though, so I'm sure I'll be running at least 6 of them (9maybe 9 or 12, depending on points).

    One good thing to note is that it would be worthwhile to run a Nob with Waaagh Banner near them, as Kanz benefit from the +1 to hit from the Banner, since it affects <Clan> units, not just orks. This would add quite a bit of hitting power to a unit of 3+ kanz getting that extra attack.


    What benefit here is there for putting the KFFs on the second Mek and not the Morkanaut?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 17:06:54


    Post by: SemperMortis


     JohnU wrote:
    Too rich for my blood. Since we don't need weapons to help ward off immobilize results I'm keeping mine naked with a deff rolla at most.


    This, At the absolute most I might fill it with Big Shootas just to add some more dakka to the thing. Kannonz/Kill Kannonz/Lobbas/Zzap gunz are all useless on this thing.

    Battlewagonz are either going to be delivery system for Boyz or Bunkers for Lootas.

    I am not sold yet at all on the Flash Gitz. At 27pts a full unit of 10 in a Battlewagon will run you around 430pts without upgrades and will give you 30 S5 Shots with -2 AP and hitting on 4s. So 15 hits and against T4 thats 10 wounds so it will only kill 6-7 Tactical Marines a turn.

    On the other hand, filling that thing with 4 MSU Lootas gives you on average 40 S7 shots a turn from 4 different units meaning you can shoot 4 different targets. 5 Lootas will hit about 3 times a turn on average meaning 2-3 wounds a turn and at D2 its decent, not game changing not super effective but not bad. Also 20 Lootas in a Wagon = 520pts. Wicked expensive but its 5 units in one


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 17:23:21


    Post by: Ashkayel


    SemperMortis wrote:
     JohnU wrote:
    Too rich for my blood. Since we don't need weapons to help ward off immobilize results I'm keeping mine naked with a deff rolla at most.
    On the other hand, filling that thing with 4 MSU Lootas gives you on average 40 S7 shots a turn from 4 different units meaning you can shoot 4 different targets. 5 Lootas will hit about 3 times a turn on average meaning 2-3 wounds a turn and at D2 its decent, not game changing not super effective but not bad. Also 20 Lootas in a Wagon = 520pts. Wicked expensive but its 5 units in one

    In 8th you can split your shots towards different targets in a single squad. However, having 4x5 lootas gives you better odds for Heavy ~2. I wonder if it really helps for morale (don't benefit from mob rule but can allocate 5 explosion deaths to a single squad and others are ok).


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 17:48:06


    Post by: gungo


    Ashkayel wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
     JohnU wrote:
    Too rich for my blood. Since we don't need weapons to help ward off immobilize results I'm keeping mine naked with a deff rolla at most.
    On the other hand, filling that thing with 4 MSU Lootas gives you on average 40 S7 shots a turn from 4 different units meaning you can shoot 4 different targets. 5 Lootas will hit about 3 times a turn on average meaning 2-3 wounds a turn and at D2 its decent, not game changing not super effective but not bad. Also 20 Lootas in a Wagon = 520pts. Wicked expensive but its 5 units in one

    In 8th you can split your shots towards different targets in a single squad. However, having 4x5 lootas gives you better odds for Heavy ~2. I wonder if it really helps for morale (don't benefit from mob rule but can allocate 5 explosion deaths to a single squad and others are ok).


    its only really good if exactly 5 models die or to limit morale tests to specific units so that you don't lose all your boys. On squads with LD7 its definitely better to MSU as you can give each unit a single casualty before they even have a chance to fail a test.

    Ok here is another kick in the nuts I read today. The exact rule for close combat says you have to be WITHIN 1" not at 1" to be in closecombat and the exact rule for all the new deepstrike or infiltrate rules is you have to be over 9'. This definitely reinforced the need for a 9" charge roll in order to make it into close combat.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 17:49:09


    Post by: JohnU


    Can split it up two units of 5 and one unit of 10 for a little better leadership.

    Or have a blob of Stormboyz chase them around and ward off assaults.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 17:55:59


    Post by: Sal4m4nd3r


    Forgetting about leadership, I think it would be better to have 1 squad of 20 because if you roll a one for those shots, you can use 1 command point for a re-roll. So a really good chance of getting a 3


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 18:02:36


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
    Forgetting about leadership, I think it would be better to have 1 squad of 20 because if you roll a one for those shots, you can use 1 command point for a re-roll. So a really good chance of getting a 3


    True, but with 4 units you are guaranteeing more average results. SO its more likely you will get 2 shots on average from each unit and it won't be as damaging when you roll a 1-2 for the unit.

    Also as a side note, every unit has split fire now, but does that mean everyone can use it or does it say you a weapon type. I think the primary purpose of that is to give SMs a reason to take a Lascannon and a Flamer in the same Tac squad, or a HB on a scout squad.

    I really wish Lootas would be D3+1 shots, especially with the increase in price and the loss of good cover saves teamed with their piss poor Accuracy. On conversely let us pay 1-3pts for each model to be given a Git Finda to make them BS3


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 18:11:45


    Post by: Soss


    Does the Wrecking Ball for a Truck replace the normal attacks or does it add 3 Wrecking Ball attacks? If it replaces how does it affect the Damage Chart number of attacks?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 18:17:57


    Post by: JohnU


    Choosing targets when shooting is done on a per model basis, even if they all have the same weapon.

    For the Trukk, assuming it isn't damaged, it can make 3 attacks with it's normal profile, or 3 attacks with the Wrecking Ball profile, or any combination in between. Same thing if it's damaged, just with fewer attacks to choose.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 19:09:30


    Post by: momfreeek


     JohnU wrote:
    Choosing targets when shooting is done on a per model basis, even if they all have the same weapon.

    But you split the fire before rolling any dice, so its still an advantage to have multiple smaller units then you can wait to see how one unit performs before choosing where the second unit aims.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 19:18:17


    Post by: koooaei


    You need 510 pt of lootas to wreck a rhino. I'd not consider lootas to be effective passangers for a wagon.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 19:20:27


    Post by: skyfi


    Does the waaagh banner affect grots? Stack with their dangerous in numbers rule? I'm thinking weight of attacks + high model account but boys would probably do the job better but have fewer models.


    Gits hit on 4s, with ammo runts you're looking at 10
    Rerolls. 30 shots, 15 hit, 15 reroll, 7.5 more hits.

    22.5 hits wounding on 3s vs 3+ with -2 and no fnp means 14.99 wounds, and using a 5+ 9.99 marines should die. Not sure what a 10 man squad costs but that's not looking bad.

    Shooting a 4+ t8 vehicle they are still doing 22.5 hits and 7.49 wounds on a 5+ which do some damage?

    That's pretty good imho for 310 points shootin from a 180 platform (only rolla no guns)

    If ya add badrukk
    If they get out and get his buff, assuming they didn't move this turn, with badruk allowing re roll of 1s, then use your ammo runt re rolls on 2s and 3s to hit. Then badruk let's you re roll ones to wound which should greatly make the unit more Killy vs vehicles?


    On issue of gun boats. I like idea of just 4 big shoota to help clear out small units trying to get our lootas or gits on the boats.

    Kannon and killkanon are expensive but just thinking of stars aligning and getting 18 dmg onto a target in a mere 2 shots. Makes me all fuzzy




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
    Forgetting about leadership, I think it would be better to have 1 squad of 20 because if you roll a one for those shots, you can use 1 command point for a re-roll. So a really good chance of getting a 3


    I think loota mob caps at 15 :(


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 19:49:57


    Post by: Solar Shock


    i think then for lootas 12, 8 split works well. you gain the 12 LD from the mob rule, incase you roll poorly in an explodes. so say you lose like 4 or something. the 12 LD will prevent the other 4 running. you have a unit of 8, which even if the 12 disembarks it can take 1 casualty and is still immune to morale. You can split fire the 8 into two 4s, then depending on how well they perform you can split the 12 as needed.

    i like the idea of 4x5 in terms of averaging your d3 rolls. but im not sure how practical they will work morale wise. once your vehicle pops and they become 4x5 units in the open it becomes very easy for them to start failing multiple morale tests. Whereas, 12, 8, even if after an explodes they focus the 8 group they will still be LD 12 meaning your immune up until 6+ dead. and if they focus the 12 your also immune until 3+ dead.

    Im interested in the math on the gitz. for example, how many ammo runts, and how many gitz. im wondering if a 2/3 gitz to 1/3 ammo runts would be most effective. youll almost always get to re-roll the maximum number of ammo runts but you've got the swing factor of getting more shots on good rolls and get more shots in general? also the roll a 6 and shoot again counts for more. i'll have to math it out


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    does disembarking count as moving? for the purpose of gitz?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 19:56:22


    Post by: XTheWaffen


    Are tankbustas worth the wounds they do? I keep getting a group of 10 in a trukk averaging 6-9 wounds a turn(assuming the enemy is bringing vehicles), which comes in at approximately 252 points. That said they have to get into 24in range and will likely be targeted by your opponent first most times, seeing them dead by turn 2-3.
    For a little over a hundred points more you could grab a gorkanaut.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:01:54


    Post by: wtwlf123


    Can the Waaagh! Banner bearer be outfitted with a PK? The model I currently have my banner on has a Klaw, and I heard that it won't be able to take one...


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:03:33


    Post by: Solar Shock


    oh wow! waaagh banner works for all clan units. which is every unit except flashgitz it appears..... so walker lists will benefit. im now thinking grotz and walkers. bring a stompa, immunity to morale. wrap it up in hundreds of grots and your other walkers, so a morka for kff. and watch in horror as your grots hit on 3+ in combat and 3+ in shooting so long as they are above 20 models. could be hilarious

    no PK for banner nob


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:05:35


    Post by: Jambles


     wtwlf123 wrote:
    Can the Waaagh! Banner bearer be outfitted with a PK? The model I currently have my banner on has a Klaw, and I heard that it won't be able to take one...
    Nob w/ Waaagh Banna has a set loadout, based on the model.

    FWIW, the Banna itself is a weapon listed on the unit profile, stats like a big choppa - it's not a PK, but it's something, at least?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:08:44


    Post by: wtwlf123


     Jambles wrote:
     wtwlf123 wrote:
    Can the Waaagh! Banner bearer be outfitted with a PK? The model I currently have my banner on has a Klaw, and I heard that it won't be able to take one...
    Nob w/ Waaagh Banna has a set loadout, based on the model.

    FWIW, the Banna itself is a weapon listed on the unit profile, stats like a big choppa - it's not a PK, but it's something, at least?


    Well, smashing the enemy with the actual banner is certainly the more orky solution... It's just a bummer that the model I've used since 5th is no longer a viable model to field. :-/


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:17:33


    Post by: Jambles


     wtwlf123 wrote:
     Jambles wrote:
     wtwlf123 wrote:
    Can the Waaagh! Banner bearer be outfitted with a PK? The model I currently have my banner on has a Klaw, and I heard that it won't be able to take one...
    Nob w/ Waaagh Banna has a set loadout, based on the model.

    FWIW, the Banna itself is a weapon listed on the unit profile, stats like a big choppa - it's not a PK, but it's something, at least?


    Well, smashing the enemy with the actual banner is certainly the more orky solution... It's just a bummer that the model I've used since 5th is no longer a viable model to field. :-/
    Viable... I do not think that word means what you think it means.

    Seriously, probably one of the best new options we've got. Snap the PK off if you need to, but make it work! You won't regret it.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:21:20


    Post by: Nazrak


    Yeah, banner Nob looks great. I never had one before as I didn't run a nobz mob, but I think it's time for a dive into the bitz box.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:21:22


    Post by: wtwlf123


    I intend to field it. It's a good unit. But it's a drag that mine no longer works the way it's modeled, and I wish I didn't have to break my figures to be able to continue to use them. That's exactly what viable means. If I can't use it as it's modeled, it's not a viable unit for me to field unless I break it. That sucks.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:35:10


    Post by: gungo


    The waagh banner cant take a claw (which oddly the official model has a metal hand) Its a fixed profile. You cant even downgrade his kustom shoota to a shoota.

    Badrukk doesn't reroll to wound rolls of 1. I wish he did because he isn't quite worth it when ammo runts are much better and don't stack w him well.

    Disembarking specifically states it counts as moving for all rules purposes =/

    2/3 to 1/3 gits to runts is a good ratio in a wagon. Don't forget each runt is an ablative wound making gitz fairly durable.

    Point for point tankbustas and especailly bomb squigs are by far our best option against vehicles. Tankbusta bombs are better than a rokkit launcha if you can get in range to throw one. Rokkit pistols are better against toughness6 targets or targets with 2 or less wounds, but we have better options to deal with those units.

    As stated before lets assume we will face at least 1 imperial knight in a list. this monstrosity has 24 wounds, toughness 8 3+ sv, and a 5++ invul.

    Ideal weapon against it is str8+ ap-2 or spamming mortal wounds which we cant do well.

    a blob of 30 boys w a waagh banner in range will only do 121 atks on a charge, with 100.83 hits, with ~17 wounds, and ~6 through the save at 6 wounds total. This unit costs 259 w waaagh nob.

    10 tankbustas/4 bomb squigs at 18 range will do 5.55/3.9 hits, 2.78/1.95 wounds, 1.85/1.3 through the save. With 3 damage for rokkits and average of 3.5 damage with the bomb equals 5.55/4.55 or 10.1 wounds. This unit costs 210 points. You can do even more damage if you get into tankbusta bomb grenade range 6', but I was trying to be a bit more realistic.

    So tankbustas do more wounds for less points to a vehicle than a maxed out fully buffed blob. take 4 units of tankbustas and 4 bomb squigs and place 2 units w 2 squigs in a trukk each and you can do 15.67 wounds to an imperial knight in 1 turn over 20 if you took 8 squigs.. (of course not everyone is going to get in 18in range.) have I mentioned how brutal bomb squigs are with a 2+ rerollable and 4+ to wound vs toughness 8 and d6 wounds and assault you can even advance and reliably hit with them.







    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:36:26


    Post by: SemperMortis


    From a power level perspective it would be funny as hell and from a points perspective it would be doable.

    Stompa = 900pts of uselessness except for its Aura. A mob of 30 Grotz is 90pts. So in a 1,500pt game you could field 6 Units of 30 with enough points left for a Banner nob.

    Conversely if you want to be a really annoying A-Hole you could field Ghaz, a Painboy, a Weirdboy the Banner Nob for 392pts and then have 1108pts for grots which would be 369 Grotz or 12 Full 30 man squads and 27 left over points so probably grab that runtherder for the reroll 1s.

    So now you have a ENORMOUS HORDE of grotz who are hitting there shots on 3s, wounding pretty much everything on 5s and 6s but you get to reroll 1s, They are basically fearless thanks to Ghaz. When they finally get into CC they will have 3 attacks each hitting on 4s (Ghaz, Weirdboy and banner Nob) 4 if they get a charge bonus (not sure if that exists still).

    So...not exactly a fun list to play or play against but it would be incredibly hard to beat that list because nobody would expect a need to bring that much firepower

    Ohh and because of the painboy against non AP weapons they have 2 6+ saves against wounds, 1 6+ save against anything with AP


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:39:35


    Post by: Jambles


     wtwlf123 wrote:
    I intend to field it. It's a good unit. But it's a drag that mine no longer works the way it's modeled, and I wish I didn't have to break my figures to be able to continue to use them. That's exactly what viable means. If I can't use it as it's modeled, it's not a viable unit for me to field unless I break it. That sucks.
    You expected everything to remain the same this edition?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 20:44:50


    Post by: Grimmor


     koooaei wrote:
    *killsaw maths*.


    I had a feeling that the Killsaws would be straight up better.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 21:08:52


    Post by: gungo


    XTheWaffen wrote:
    Are tankbustas worth the wounds they do? I keep getting a group of 10 in a trukk averaging 6-9 wounds a turn(assuming the enemy is bringing vehicles), which comes in at approximately 252 points. That said they have to get into 24in range and will likely be targeted by your opponent first most times, seeing them dead by turn 2-3.
    For a little over a hundred points more you could grab a gorkanaut.


    The gorkanaut is one of our best units especially in melee. (personally I'm hoping the meka dread is cheaper then the morkanaut and can still take a kff. So I can pair it with the Gorkanaut and a pair of deff dreads and maybe 3-6 kans)
    The problem w gorkanaut compared to tankbustas is tankbustas actually have a decent chance to hit in the shooting phase and 24in isn't hard to get into considering a trukks base movement is 12in. So in most instances you can fire up to 12in into your opponents deployment zone turn 1.
    Because rokkits are assault weapons we can move in the trukk and fire at full ballistic skill OR advance and fire at -1 (not recommended unless you want to get into 18in and unload a lot of bomb squigs who still hit reliably on a 3+ rerollable).


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 21:27:31


    Post by: JimOnMars


     wtwlf123 wrote:
    I intend to field it. It's a good unit. But it's a drag that mine no longer works the way it's modeled, and I wish I didn't have to break my figures to be able to continue to use them. That's exactly what viable means. If I can't use it as it's modeled, it's not a viable unit for me to field unless I break it. That sucks.

    take it with the klaw! just say that it's for cheerleading purposes, not fighting. maybe it's rusted shut and doesn't work anymore. it's still an orky thing to do.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 22:13:41


    Post by: skyfi


     JimOnMars wrote:
     wtwlf123 wrote:
    I intend to field it. It's a good unit. But it's a drag that mine no longer works the way it's modeled, and I wish I didn't have to break my figures to be able to continue to use them. That's exactly what viable means. If I can't use it as it's modeled, it's not a viable unit for me to field unless I break it. That sucks.

    take it with the klaw! just say that it's for cheerleading purposes, not fighting. maybe it's rusted shut and doesn't work anymore. it's still an orky thing to do.


    Add a little (removable later if you want) "out of order" sign hanging from his klaw? :p


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 22:15:34


    Post by: zamerion


    Sorry if it was asked, but, if a unit with heavy weapons is embarked in a battlewagon, do they benefit from the rule of move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty ?

    In open tropped rule said that models embarked shoot as the model (vehicle)


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 23:16:17


    Post by: Grimmor


    zamerion wrote:
    Sorry if it was asked, but, if a unit with heavy weapons is embarked in a battlewagon, do they benefit from the rule of move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty ?

    In open tropped rule said that models embarked shoot as the model (vehicle)


    It does seem to work that way, and i hope that that is intentional, cuz the Battlewagon would feel a bit expensive otherwise.

    Heres a 2k list i cobbled together, its comprised mostly of Kommandoes and Stormboyz, and its whole point is mobility to the extreme.
    Spoiler:

    Outrider Detachment
    HQ
    Boss Zagstrukk-88

    Fast Attack
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249

    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216
    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216


    Vanguard Detachment

    HQ
    Boss Snikrot-69

    Elite
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99


    Spearhead Detachment
    HQ
    Big Mek w/ KFF-75

    Heavy Support
    3 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 114
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76

    Total:1974


    The Big Mek hangs with the KMKs that can be spread out wherever (plus Mek Guns can actually benefit from cover so you only really need to protect ones that are most likely to be in danger). The Stormboyz blitz up the field (like they should) and the Buggies can outflank or just run up the normal flank and snipe Vehicles that the KMKs can't get. The Kommandoes are for Objective nabbing and being the hammer to the Stormboyz other hammer (Orks don't do anvils )

    This list has a fair few models (over 100) and it hits fairly hard. Its main issue is, is that it has to get in melee to crush hordes, which really isn't an issue.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/08 23:45:22


    Post by: blaktoof


    Re: battlewagon it seems it's intentional that they fire as per the BW. The BW can move and fire heavy weapons due to "mobile fortress" so this leads to models on board being able to move and fire heavy at full bs. Clearly the open topped rule references restrictions and modifications.

    The mobile fortress rule is clearly a modification.

    A restriction would be advancing, the units inside would be restricted to firing assault weapons just like the BW.

    Which does make them nice firebases for lootas


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:08:26


    Post by: wtwlf123


     Jambles wrote:
     wtwlf123 wrote:
    I intend to field it. It's a good unit. But it's a drag that mine no longer works the way it's modeled, and I wish I didn't have to break my figures to be able to continue to use them. That's exactly what viable means. If I can't use it as it's modeled, it's not a viable unit for me to field unless I break it. That sucks.
    You expected everything to remain the same this edition?


    Of course not. Some units get better, others get worse, etc. I've survived a lot of edition changes. But it's always a bummer when your models straight-up can't be fielded anymore without modification.

    Have I pissed you off in some way or are you just purposely being obtuse for some reason?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:13:28


    Post by: JohnU


    Just field it as is. Your opponent will probably be too distracted by the fact that the Nob is beating his guys upside the head with his flag to even notice the Klaw.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:21:05


    Post by: wtwlf123


     JohnU wrote:
    Just field it as is. Your opponent will probably be too distracted by the fact that the Nob is beating his guys upside the head with his flag to even notice the Klaw.


    Ya, I'll probably have to.

    I love that the banner is a weapon though; that's the orkiest thing I've seen in a while.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:25:01


    Post by: gungo


     Grimmor wrote:
    zamerion wrote:
    Sorry if it was asked, but, if a unit with heavy weapons is embarked in a battlewagon, do they benefit from the rule of move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty ?

    In open tropped rule said that models embarked shoot as the model (vehicle)


    It does seem to work that way, and i hope that that is intentional, cuz the Battlewagon would feel a bit expensive otherwise.

    Heres a 2k list i cobbled together, its comprised mostly of Kommandoes and Stormboyz, and its whole point is mobility to the extreme.
    Spoiler:

    Outrider Detachment
    HQ
    Boss Zagstrukk-88

    Fast Attack
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249

    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216
    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216


    Vanguard Detachment

    HQ
    Boss Snikrot-69

    Elite
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99


    Spearhead Detachment
    HQ
    Big Mek w/ KFF-75

    Heavy Support
    3 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 114
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 76

    Total:1974


    The Big Mek hangs with the KMKs that can be spread out wherever (plus Mek Guns can actually benefit from cover so you only really need to protect ones that are most likely to be in danger). The Stormboyz blitz up the field (like they should) and the Buggies can outflank or just run up the normal flank and snipe Vehicles that the KMKs can't get. The Kommandoes are for Objective nabbing and being the hammer to the Stormboyz other hammer (Orks don't do anvils )

    This list has a fair few models (over 100) and it hits fairly hard. Its main issue is, is that it has to get in melee to crush hordes, which really isn't an issue.


    The new way to make an army list is an absolute pain in the arse. It took me like a dozen times to get the points right. Each Mek gun is accompanied by 5 grots that cost 2pts each so each kmk Mek gun is 48 points. You're about 70pts short. Just drop one Mek gun and you're at 1996 points (enough for a 4pt kustom shoota :p). Nice list. Ill never have the models to spam 90 stormboys. (Only 15 and zagstruk at the moment).


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:30:06


    Post by: JohnU


    And if that doesn't confuse you enough, Big Gunz are a different entry and only have two grots.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:32:21


    Post by: Grimmor


    gungo wrote:
    The new way to make an army list is an absolute pain in the arse. It took me like a dozen times to get the points right. Each Mek gun is accompanied by 5 grots that cost 2pts each so each kmk Mek gun is 48 points. You're about 70pts short. Just drop one Mek gun and you're at 1996 points (enough for a 4pt kustom shoota :p). Nice list. Ill never have the models to spam 90 stormboys. (Only 15 and zagstruk at the moment).


    Bugger all. I almost hoped the Grots where free. Oh well, at least they got cheaper even if the gun got more expensive. In any event, i can't either, but im gonna make some Rokkit Packs for my Slugga boyz with Magnets so i can use them for whatever.

     JohnU wrote:
    And if that doesn't confuse you enough, Big Gunz are a different entry and only have two grots.


    Yeesh, if i did wanna take Kannons before i dont now.

    Re-edited list

    Spoiler:

    Outrider Detachment
    HQ
    Boss Zagstrukk-88

    Fast Attack
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249

    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216
    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216


    Vanguard Detachment

    HQ
    Boss Snikrot-69

    Elite
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99


    Spearhead Detachment
    HQ
    Big Mek w/ KFF-75

    Heavy Support
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96

    Total:1996



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 00:52:48


    Post by: SemperMortis


    I have about 45 Stormboyz who are finally going to be useful.

    I am really REALLY hoping that the Ork Codex fixes a lot of these issues im seeing, but mostly I want Klan Specific buffs. Goff boyz get +1 attack or something.


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 01:05:53


    Post by: blaktoof


     Grimmor wrote:
    gungo wrote:
    The new way to make an army list is an absolute pain in the arse. It took me like a dozen times to get the points right. Each Mek gun is accompanied by 5 grots that cost 2pts each so each kmk Mek gun is 48 points. You're about 70pts short. Just drop one Mek gun and you're at 1996 points (enough for a 4pt kustom shoota :p). Nice list. Ill never have the models to spam 90 stormboys. (Only 15 and zagstruk at the moment).


    Bugger all. I almost hoped the Grots where free. Oh well, at least they got cheaper even if the gun got more expensive. In any event, i can't either, but im gonna make some Rokkit Packs for my Slugga boyz with Magnets so i can use them for whatever.

     JohnU wrote:
    And if that doesn't confuse you enough, Big Gunz are a different entry and only have two grots.


    Yeesh, if i did wanna take Kannons before i dont now.

    Re-edited list

    Spoiler:

    Outrider Detachment
    HQ
    Boss Zagstrukk-88

    Fast Attack
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249
    30 Stormboyz w/ BC Nob-249

    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216
    3 Warbuggies w/ Rokkit Racks-216


    Vanguard Detachment

    HQ
    Boss Snikrot-69

    Elite
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99
    10 Kommandoes w/ 2 Burnas, Nob w/ BC-99


    Spearhead Detachment
    HQ
    Big Mek w/ KFF-75

    Heavy Support
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96
    2 Mek Guns w/ KMKs- 96

    Total:1996



    Pretty brutal list.



    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 01:24:26


    Post by: gungo


    So let me see if I got this right.
    Stormboyz have the fly and jumppack keywords
    Fly allows you to ignore intervening models or terrain during movement and allows you to shoot when you fall back and land on the top of ruins. And not setoff explosions when you move over the battlescape And allows stormboys to assault other flyers.

    Jumppack does absolutely nothing...

    Did I miss anything?


    Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics) @ 2017/06/09 01:30:48


    Post by: Grimmor


    gungo wrote:
    So let me see if I got this right.
    Stormboyz have the fly and jumppack keywords
    Fly allows you to ignore intervening models or terrain during movement and allows you to shoot when you fall back and land on the top of ruins if your a bike, monster, vehicle. And allows stormboys to assault other flyers.

    Jumppack does absolutely nothing...

    Did I miss anything?


    Seems right to me. I think Jumpack is a keyword for abilities, such as Zaggstrukk.