Probably good to pepper in shootas somehwere? Basically two huge warbands with every buff imaginable and a trukk to deploy the 12 characters in perfectly (7 units to deploy) if they have alot of snipers or for shenanigans, weirdboy auto pass jump on cheapest unit turn one after warpath cast on them surround the humies. Two squads clipped to 28 for points. Prob can force aircraft off the board mid game with clever jump and spread. Painboyz fix whichever weirdboy perils the most triple D6 autopass mortal wound smite the big nasty stuff.
Um 7 characters in a trukk means NO BUFFS for your boys.....
The weird boys heads will explode casting the jump. Although that's actually a tactic for smite spam but smite can only target the closest enemny model. You might need some anti tank because it's going to be really hard to kill any toughness 8 3+ sv model in any reasonable amount of time.
Gun crews are a bit of a headache then. But an upside, albeit an unlikely one, if you have 5 closely placed Mek Guns, you can still fire all 5 even if 20 of your gunners have been squished. They only need 1 Grot each close by.As long as cohesion holds overall. Am I reading that right?
gungo wrote: Um 7 characters in a trukk means NO BUFFS for your boys.....
The weird boys heads will explode casting the jump. Although that's actually a tactic for smite spam but smite can only target the closest enemny model. You might need some anti tank because it's going to be really hard to kill any toughness 8 3+ sv model in any reasonable amount of time.
The transport is to keep his deployment down to 7, instead of like the 14 with all his HQ's. That should potentially give him turn 1. Secondly most of the buffs he needs are only needed either in combat or after having taken damage, so as long as he secures T1 then he can disembark the painboy and KFF. But I see your point. It relies on getting T1. But once you see your opponents list you can basically work out wither you will get T1. so you could always deploy the KFF and painboy outside if you see them getting T1.
Cuz05 wrote: Gun crews are a bit of a headache then. But an upside, albeit an unlikely one, if you have 5 closely placed Mek Guns, you can still fire all 5 even if 20 of your gunners have been squished. They only need 1 Grot each close by.As long as cohesion holds overall. Am I reading that right?
Yes; Grot Gunners from a different unit can fire any gun; as you've noted, one different grot is required to operate each gun.
If there are no Grot Gunners in 6", the gun is deactivated - this is important for charging and general movement.
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
Thats pretty cool, so are Grot Gunners distinct from other Grots or can I keep a normal Gretchin squad behind the big guns to top up the crew as they are killed off?
I'm sure in 3rd edition, which was the last time I played in earnest, you could replace big gun crews in this fashion.
Probably good to pepper in shootas somehwere? Basically two huge warbands with every buff imaginable and a trukk to deploy the 12 characters in perfectly (7 units to deploy) if they have alot of snipers or for shenanigans, weirdboy auto pass jump on cheapest unit turn one after warpath cast on them surround the humies. Two squads clipped to 28 for points. Prob can force aircraft off the board mid game with clever jump and spread. Painboyz fix whichever weirdboy perils the most triple D6 autopass mortal wound smite the big nasty stuff.
Shootas? How many/where?
feth shootas. GET STUCK IN WAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!! This is the greatest list I have ever seen.
flyer bases are like all other bases. Enemy cant come within 1" unless they are assaulting. And they cant assault a flier unless they have the fly rule. Friendly bases cant overlap.
koooaei wrote: Can we combine shootas and choppas in one squad now?
Yes, why you would want to is beyond me, but yes.
Mellee works in a way that you can't always get all the boyz striking - even if you try hard. Especially with longer charges - be it after deepstrike or plain footslogging up to a shooty opponent that's not so eager to close distance. So, basically your backlines are less likely to add something to the mellee fight. But they can still shoot something on the way there. And with higher range of shootas, it's not necesserily the same target you're about to charge. So, in many cases you don't loose mellee punch from having shootas in a squad while getting a bit of ranged advantage.
Another thing is that you sometimes want to go shooty instead of choppy - even with the boyz. And than those shootaboyz will come in handy.
Versatility is also a great thing. You're not 100% as effective as a dedicated squad all the time but factor in the losses that ork footsloggas take every turn anywayz. You can easilly kill off the less useful part of your squad. So, the specialisation becomes less of an issue. Your squad can 'adapt' to the enemy over time. take that tyranids
I think in this case the whole is greater than the sum of parts.
Spoiler:
also i have a ton of shootas and sluggas that usually perform as either one of them, but now i can finally go wysiwyg
It's interesting to figure the optimal proportion of shootas/sluggas.
You know, it reminds me of tercio - a combined unit of pikemen and musketeers. Used to great effect in...16-th century iirc.
koooaei wrote: Can we combine shootas and choppas in one squad now?
Yes, why you would want to is beyond me, but yes.
"Any Boy may replace his Choppa and Slugga with a Shoota"
Nowhere does it have a restriction on how many or if the unit has to all take the same weapons.
to min max.
Let's say you take a squad of 30 boys odds are ~5-10 will die before you get into close combat.
Secondly odds are you won't get all 30 boys within 1in of whatever you assault.
Soooo take 10 shootas put them in the neck of the blob and as you move advance you can double shot fire with a gun w longer range. On top of the fact you choose casualties. You are likely to get a couple wounds you wouldn't get w 30 choppas. I find a ratio of 20 choppas/10 sluggas work best in demo games. It's not a huge difference just a little min maxing. It's also helpful for overwatch.
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
2 Stompas for 1954 points. "No no, Mr. Knights player, you aren't going first today."
Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
10 Nobs w/ Big Choppas and a few Killsaws, Nob w/ Banner, fill up the rest with Ammo Runts. Charge with the wagon first to eat overwatch, runts eat the CC wounds. Should get you close.
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
I was very unimpressed bringing a stompa twice. once was against 2 imperial knights and some space marines. the knights were cheaper and wrecked the stompa 2 in 2 turns. in the other storm ravens dances around it blasting it to bits by turn 3. it lacked firepower to do much due to lack of hits, but did dmg in close combat.
I was running battle wagons with the stompa in both games, 19 boyz w/ nob getting out of it after advancing a turn and getting that charge (warboss on a bike rode between the wagons for advance then charge) they did work, wrecked a space marine backfield.
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
10 Nobs w/ Big Choppas and a few Killsaws, Nob w/ Banner, fill up the rest with Ammo Runts. Charge with the wagon first to eat overwatch, runts eat the CC wounds. Should get you close.
Let's say that every nob has a killsaw, and your banner is in range: The knight is going to take 17.77 wounds. Then swing back and statistically kill 4-5 nobs. On the knight players turn he will walk out of combat, and shoot them to death. If any remain he will charge and kill them easily.
If they all have big choppas you are only talking 8.33 wounds to the knight statistically.
So that one doesn't really work. I mean potentially the BW with a Deffrolla could finish the knight, but it's still pretty iffy.
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
Starting off I equip the Wagon with a Deff Rolla for 19pts, inside the wagon I have 8 Nobz with PKs and a Weirdboy with Warpath.
BW drops off the nobz and weirdboy and then moves as close to the knight as it wants, the nobz disembark 3, more forward there 5ins to get a good charge range and shoot the knight for gits and shiggles. This won't do anything but on the off chance it gets a wound it will annoy my opponent
Psychic phase my Weirdboy casts Warpath on my nobz because hes cool like that. With that done CHARGE!
Battlewagon eats the overwatch without a problem and rams the knight with 6 S8 -2AP attacks hitting on 2s for a grand total of 4 hits. Those will wound on 4s so 2 wounds at -2 AP the knight saves them on 5s so chances are both go through. NOBZ ATTACK! 8 Nobz with warpath have 32 Attacks base, hitting on 4s means 16 hits, wounding on 3s means about 11 wounds. Against a 6+ Save thats 9 wounds that go through, D3 damage averages 2 damage meaning 18 wounds +2 from Battlewagon and the Knight is down to 4wounds Weirdboy swings next because at this point he is getting annoyed at this stupid robot. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound 50/50 chance to go through not concerned. lets keep it at 4 wounds remaining. Knight gets to swing back, using his feet he gets 12 attacks hitting on 5s so 4 hits, wounding on 2 means 3 wounds that do D3 Damage each, so averages 2 and you get 6 wounds, or put it another way, enough to kill 3 nobz on average. they would get a 6+ armor save though....
Knights turn he is going to run away 6in because hes beat up now, hes going to turn and shoot my orky poos Thermal Cannon goes to D6 because GW loves them some Imperial bull Gak. BUT average roll is 3.5 so lets say 4 shots, hitting on 5s because while in CC one of the Nobz punched the Knight in the balls and it hasn't recovered yet so averaging only 1 hit. 1 more dead ork. Heavy stubber does 1 hit, 50% chance to wound and nobz have 50% chance to save against it so lets call it nothing. And then the Knight CHARGES! because as mentioned before YOLO! Knight uses his big stupid feet that our Stompa does't get for some reason (FETH YOU GW) and does another 12 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds go through and another 3 dead ork poos. At this point my orkz swing back with 1 Nob alive for 4 CC Attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, wounding on 3s so 2 hits, averaging D2 damage the Nobz win, the knight explodes and kills everyone and Mork and Gork are Happy and Bork is still trying to put his boots on.
Grand total of this ridiculous exercise minus the cost of the battlewagon because everyone has to take it is.......
19pts for Deff Rolla 62pts for Weirdboy 336pts for Nobz w/PKs.
Total = 417pts. At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
SemperMortis wrote: At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happyily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
Starting off I equip the Wagon with a Deff Rolla for 19pts, inside the wagon I have 8 Nobz with PKs and a Weirdboy with Warpath.
BW drops off the nobz and weirdboy and then moves as close to the knight as it wants, the nobz disembark 3, more forward there 5ins to get a good charge range and shoot the knight for gits and shiggles. This won't do anything but on the off chance it gets a wound it will annoy my opponent
Psychic phase my Weirdboy casts Warpath on my nobz because hes cool like that. With that done CHARGE!
Battlewagon eats the overwatch without a problem and rams the knight with 6 S8 -2AP attacks hitting on 2s for a grand total of 4 hits. Those will wound on 4s so 2 wounds at -2 AP the knight saves them on 5s so chances are both go through. NOBZ ATTACK! 8 Nobz with warpath have 32 Attacks base, hitting on 4s means 16 hits, wounding on 3s means about 11 wounds. Against a 6+ Save thats 9 wounds that go through, D3 damage averages 2 damage meaning 18 wounds +2 from Battlewagon and the Knight is down to 4wounds Weirdboy swings next because at this point he is getting annoyed at this stupid robot. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound 50/50 chance to go through not concerned. lets keep it at 4 wounds remaining. Knight gets to swing back, using his feet he gets 12 attacks hitting on 5s so 4 hits, wounding on 2 means 3 wounds that do D3 Damage each, so averages 2 and you get 6 wounds, or put it another way, enough to kill 3 nobz on average. they would get a 6+ armor save though....
Knights turn he is going to run away 6in because hes beat up now, hes going to turn and shoot my orky poos Thermal Cannon goes to D6 because GW loves them some Imperial bull Gak. BUT average roll is 3.5 so lets say 4 shots, hitting on 5s because while in CC one of the Nobz punched the Knight in the balls and it hasn't recovered yet so averaging only 1 hit. 1 more dead ork. Heavy stubber does 1 hit, 50% chance to wound and nobz have 50% chance to save against it so lets call it nothing. And then the Knight CHARGES! because as mentioned before YOLO! Knight uses his big stupid feet that our Stompa does't get for some reason (FETH YOU GW) and does another 12 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds go through and another 3 dead ork poos. At this point my orkz swing back with 1 Nob alive for 4 CC Attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, wounding on 3s so 2 hits, averaging D2 damage the Nobz win, the knight explodes and kills everyone and Mork and Gork are Happy and Bork is still trying to put his boots on.
Grand total of this ridiculous exercise minus the cost of the battlewagon because everyone has to take it is.......
19pts for Deff Rolla
62pts for Weirdboy
336pts for Nobz w/PKs.
Total = 417pts. At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
Pretty glorious. I think, however, you can get the same wound result swapping 4 nobz and the weirdboy for Ghazz and save yourself 15 points?
Fast math, half as many nobz means only 9 wounds, not 18 (still getting the +1 attack, this time from Ghaz aura). The boss himself has 6 attacks, hits on 2's (5), wounds on 3s (3), 6+ save (still 3), with 3 damage each (9) gets you back up to 18.
19pts for Deff Rolla
215 for Ghazzy
168 for 4 Nobz with PKs.
Total = 402pts. Or swap the pks to killsaws, 414 and the knight gets no save vs the nobz?
I think the issue is outside of Nobz, there's really no other options. MANZ cost more and aren't really better for the job. Lootaz, your dice would need to be scorching hot. Maybe a full KMK battery, but I wouldn't want to get into a shooting match with a Crusader.
Regarding the stomps I'm waiting for the kustom stompa list from FW. Potential invul save and 2 additional weapons can potentially make the stompa better. I'm not sure if gaze of gork or lifts droppawill be useful w ork bs. But the belly gun should
be decent
JohnU wrote: I think the issue is outside of Nobz, there's really no other options. MANZ cost more and aren't really better for the job. Lootaz, your dice would need to be scorching hot. Maybe a full KMK battery, but I wouldn't want to get into a shooting match with a Crusader.
Yeah, a full battery of 6 KMKs is putting out maybe 10 damage onto a knight/turn? It's not crazy expensive, should be 282 points.
Equivalent points in Tankbustas, call it 17 total, would be.... like 9 damage per turn? So in pure damage per points, KMKs are doing a little better, and are probably more survivable too. But yeah, those super heavies just feel like raid bosses....
EDIT: math was off, thought kmks were D6, they're D3. Much worse.
Ghaz with a +1 attack warlord trait will deal 10 wounds to a knight on his own. I'm pretty sure that's one of the best damage-per-point ratio you can get with orks vs knights. And he further buffs stuff around him. Including a wagon!
For knights or any 2+/3+ Toughness 8 vehicle. The best per point is:
Weirdboy spite spam w ork boy overload for auto wounding d6 mortal wounds.
Tankbustas spam w max bomb squigs and tankbusta bomb range.
Bubble chukka squads w several command points Rerolls.
Lootas w command point reroll.
About smite. Does it get d6 mortal wounds for 10 or more or for more than 10? Cause it's different in different places. For example, the rulebook says it's more than 10. While csm index states it's 10+ (for rubrics at least).
koooaei wrote: About smite. Does it get d6 mortal wounds for 10 or more or for more than 10? Cause it's different in different places. For example, the rulebook says it's more than 10. While csm index states it's 10+ (for rubrics at least).
I'm assuming generally speaking its more than 10. The 10+ for rubrics might have to do with the fact that they have a nerfed version of smite and its a bespoke rule that specifically overrides the basic version of smite.
Also, thanks guys for the previous feedback on PK Nobz for boyz squads, been a busy past couple of days so I haven't been on in a while.
Has anyone tried out a Dred Mob list yet? It seems like the Gorkanaut is preferable over the Morkanaut since you're likely to take KFF Big Meks as your HQ anyways. Ideal number for Kanz squads seem to be 4 so you can get the extra attacks without investing too much in a squad. Rokkit Launchas and Skorchas seem like the go-to weapons for Kanz as well now that Grotzookas have been pretty nerfed sadly (I was hoping they would change it from Heavy so we wouldn't have the -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting, but oh well). Should Deff Dreadz just go double skorcha?
So I was playing w battlescribe and I noticed the kustom mega blasta is even cheaper then twin linked shootas on the deffkoptas. Considering I'm using them as suicide mortal wound bombers on units like terminators and harassing melee units I think a few more str8 ap-3 shots won't hurt. That Brings my deffkoptas down to 64 points each and more affordable to spam 3x of them in a squad so I can move and advance (20in)over an enemy unit turn 1 and drop a bunch of mortal wounds on a unit of terminators bikes or equivilant or hold them back so I can scout them later and take another drop off for 1st turn shenanigans.
gungo wrote: So I was playing w battlescribe and I noticed the kustom mega blasta is even cheaper then twin linked shootas on the deffkoptas. Considering I'm using them as suicide mortal wound bombers on units like terminators and harassing melee units I think a few more str8 ap-3 shots won't hurt. That Brings my deffkoptas down to 64 points each and more affordable to spam 3x of them in a squad so I can move and advance (20in)over an enemy unit turn 1 and drop a bunch of mortal wounds on a unit of terminators bikes or equivilant or hold them back so I can scout them later and take another drop off for 1st turn shenanigans.
Wow, I don't know if this was discussed before but there is no restriction at all to bombing characters this way. You only get 1/3 chance for a moral wound, but with kopta spam it just might work. I like the 64 points!
Something I've been wondering about with the Big Mek's Kustom Force Field. Say you have a mob of 30 boyz, 25 in range of the KFF and 5 not. You take 6 wounds. If you apply the first 5 wounds to the orks outside of the KFF and they die, does the last wound get to be saved using the KFF's invulnerable save?
Saving throws are made before the damage is applied - so, unfortunately, you can't kill the first five off, and get a KFF save for the 6th; if the attack is from a single gun - if it's from multiple guns however, you should be able to. See below:
THAT SAID; it appears that the rules for "fast rolling dice" on the preceding shooting page appears to indicate that you CAN do what you're trying to do.
If the opponent shoots at you with X number of weapons that are the same;
"Make all the hit rolls at the same time
Make all the wound rolls at the same time
Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and then suffering damage each time as appropriate."
Shortest answer: If the shots are all at once from a single weapon - no, you can't. If the shots are from X number of weapons that are the same, you can apply the wounds, then perform the saving throw, one at a time - as each shot/model's shooting is technically independent of one anothers; it's just all rolled at once for convenience.
fe40k wrote: Saving throws are made before the damage is applied - so, unfortunately, you can't kill the first five off, and get a KFF save for the 6th; if the attack is from a single gun - if it's from multiple guns however, you should be able to. See below:
THAT SAID; it appears that the rules for "fast rolling dice" on the preceding shooting page appears to indicate that you CAN do what you're trying to do.
If the opponent shoots at you with X number of weapons that are the same;
"Make all the hit rolls at the same time
Make all the wound rolls at the same time
Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and then suffering damage each time as appropriate."
Shortest answer: If the shots are all at once from a single weapon - no, you can't. If the shots are from X number of weapons that are the same, you can apply the wounds, then perform the saving throw, one at a time - as each shot/model's shooting is technically independent of one anothers; it's just all rolled at once for convenience.
These rules apply to cover too!
Thank you very much! The link I had to the rules is broken now, so I couldn't check on the order of things.
gungo wrote: So I was playing w battlescribe and I noticed the kustom mega blasta is even cheaper then twin linked shootas on the deffkoptas. Considering I'm using them as suicide mortal wound bombers on units like terminators and harassing melee units I think a few more str8 ap-3 shots won't hurt. That Brings my deffkoptas down to 64 points each and more affordable to spam 3x of them in a squad so I can move and advance (20in)over an enemy unit turn 1 and drop a bunch of mortal wounds on a unit of terminators bikes or equivilant or hold them back so I can scout them later and take another drop off for 1st turn shenanigans.
Wow, I don't know if this was discussed before but there is no restriction at all to bombing characters this way. You only get 1/3 chance for a moral wound, but with kopta spam it just might work. I like the 64 points!
It's good for units of 3+ models that normally have invul saves or super resilient like high toughness high saves like terminators, bikes etc. not good at all against single models like Knights. The only downside it is limited to 5 rolls per unit (not a big deal), and you have a 5+ To hit(not effected by modifiers), no to wound and no saves. So considering you can drop the free bombs during ur movement when you advance a 20in movement means you can get a first turn drop. The spinning blades are cute but ultimately low str and no ap but can harass hordes.The kustom mega blasta can harass larger targets through and be annoying enough. It's very good for 64pts. Don't get trapped into 100+pt versions w kill saw and rokkits you will rarely get points back.
I agree mostly, the killsaw is just way to expensive for a model with just 2 attacks.
I'm still going to give the dual rokkits a try, even a lucky hit or two can take a bunch of wounds of vehicles or characters, and you can disengage each turn, fire your rokkits and charge back into combat.
Since you can ignore most intervening models, there is a good chance of catching one of your opponent characters off guard and take 3 wounds off him per hit.
I don't see any reason to take the big shoota though.
Jidmah wrote: I agree mostly, the killsaw is just way to expensive for a model with just 2 attacks.
I'm still going to give the dual rokkits a try, even a lucky hit or two can take a bunch of wounds of vehicles or characters, and you can disengage each turn, fire your rokkits and charge back into combat.
Since you can ignore most intervening models, there is a good chance of catching one of your opponent characters off guard and take 3 wounds off him per hit.
I don't see any reason to take the big shoota though.
Twin Big Shootas is 14pts for 6 S5 shots. the KMB Is 9 points for a S8 -3 D3 damage shot, you also suffer a mortal wound if you roll a 1. So you are half as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy.
The Big shootas have a good chance of doing 2 S5 shots a turn which against a 3+ enemy means 1 dead model, or even against a character 1 wound likely. With the KMB you need 3 turns just to guarantee a single hit, you have a 1/6 chance to not wound and they will get a 6+ save still or 5+ if in cover, so i mean its not exactly a sure thing.
Jidmah wrote: I agree mostly, the killsaw is just way to expensive for a model with just 2 attacks.
I'm still going to give the dual rokkits a try, even a lucky hit or two can take a bunch of wounds of vehicles or characters, and you can disengage each turn, fire your rokkits and charge back into combat.
Since you can ignore most intervening models, there is a good chance of catching one of your opponent characters off guard and take 3 wounds off him per hit.
I don't see any reason to take the big shoota though.
Twin Big Shootas is 14pts for 6 S5 shots. the KMB Is 9 points for a S8 -3 D3 damage shot, you also suffer a mortal wound if you roll a 1. So you are half as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy.
The Big shootas have a good chance of doing 2 S5 shots a turn which against a 3+ enemy means 1 dead model, or even against a character 1 wound likely. With the KMB you need 3 turns just to guarantee a single hit, you have a 1/6 chance to not wound and they will get a 6+ save still or 5+ if in cover, so i mean its not exactly a sure thing.
1/6 isn't that big of a deal on a unit with 4 wounds. And I agree the twin big shoots isn't a bad cost. The question is what is the role and point of your deffkoptas if you are looking for anti infantry we have better and cheaper options. The main reason I like deffkoptas is the free bomb makes it the cheapest most efficient way to deal terminators, centorians, bikers and any other tough unit of multiple models. 3x deffkoptas will do an average of 5 mortal wounds and kill 2.5 of those models which have 2 wounds each. After which they can take a few pop shots with kmb and do d3 wounds each which will average another dead terminator equivalent from the 3. IMHO orks problem is dealing with high toughness high save models not hordes. However I agree the twin big shoota isn't bad for the cost. I can deal w a swarm of homagaunts but a single knight warden or paladin is going to seriously wreck orks faces.
Jidmah wrote: I agree mostly, the killsaw is just way to expensive for a model with just 2 attacks.
I'm still going to give the dual rokkits a try, even a lucky hit or two can take a bunch of wounds of vehicles or characters, and you can disengage each turn, fire your rokkits and charge back into combat.
Since you can ignore most intervening models, there is a good chance of catching one of your opponent characters off guard and take 3 wounds off him per hit.
I don't see any reason to take the big shoota though.
Twin Big Shootas is 14pts for 6 S5 shots. the KMB Is 9 points for a S8 -3 D3 damage shot, you also suffer a mortal wound if you roll a 1. So you are half as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy.
The Big shootas have a good chance of doing 2 S5 shots a turn which against a 3+ enemy means 1 dead model, or even against a character 1 wound likely. With the KMB you need 3 turns just to guarantee a single hit, you have a 1/6 chance to not wound and they will get a 6+ save still or 5+ if in cover, so i mean its not exactly a sure thing.
Half as likely to kill yourself? That means KMB is now twice as good as in any of the previous editions
But seriously, I agree with your analysis, but this is not about math comparing the two weapons.
2x Big shoota against MEQ is hit on 5+, wound on 3+, 3+ save, so .44 dead MEQ per round of shooting
2x Rokkit against MEQ is hit on 5+, wound on 2+, 6+ save, means .46 dead MEQ per round of shooting
Since it's not like .02 wounds will ever be noticeable in a game, so lets just assume they are the same - until you start shooting at multi-wound models like vehicles.
The thing is, either I want to take pot shots at the enemy and hope they do something, then you take rokkits. They are more versatile and more dangerous to vehicles and characters while being just as good killing anything with one wound and a 4+ save or better.
Or you want a cheap sacrificial unit and keep it as cheap as possible, then you take KMB.
Equipping twin shootas makes it worse than both, no matter what you do, there is a better option.
Half as likely to kill yourself? That means KMB is now twice as good as in any of the previous editions
But seriously, I agree with your analysis, but this is not about math comparing the two weapons.
2x Big shoota against MEQ is hit on 5+, wound on 3+, 3+ save, so .44 dead MEQ per round of shooting
2x Rokkit against MEQ is hit on 5+, wound on 2+, 6+ save, means .46 dead MEQ per round of shooting
Since it's not like .02 wounds will ever be noticeable in a game, so lets just assume they are the same - until you start shooting at multi-wound models like vehicles.
The thing is, either I want to take pot shots at the enemy and hope they do something, then you take rokkits. They are more versatile and more dangerous to vehicles and characters while being just as good killing anything with one wound and a 4+ save or better.
Or you want a cheap sacrificial unit and keep it as cheap as possible, then you take KMB.
Equipping twin shootas makes it worse than both, no matter what you do, there is a better option.
LOL I agree. I am just a bit miffed at the huge points hike those Rokkitz took. They cost about 1/2 of a Space Marine Missile Launcher, but they are 1/2 as likely to hit, 1/2 the range and don't have a secondary firing mode. And Missile Launchers do D6 damage, so the average roll is 3.5 so its actually higher damage then the Rokkit as well. And thats before we get into the platforms that can carry them, IE a Marine with a launcher is significantly more durable then a Tank Busta.
Maybe they should have increased the price by ....3-5pts not 7.
you also suffer a mortal wound if you roll a 1. So you are half as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy.
Actually, you also need to wound and go through saves vs the opponent. So, you're more likely to hurt yourself than the opponent if you're shooting a tough target.
Also remeber deffkoptas are one of our few units that can atk other flyers well. Question does deffkoptas ignore hard to hit rules for flyers in the shooting phase?
gungo wrote: Question does deffkoptas ignore hard to hit rules for flyers in the shooting phase?
No. It'll be in the weapon profile if that's the case.
Ya I don't see any anti flyer unit ignoring that rule even the traktor gun which is our anti flyer or dakkajet. Which makes shooting flyers extremely difficult with orks. I was hoping units with flying rules had some interaction that ignored that rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the kmb deffkoptas and I don't have a lot of points to spare!
Ghazkull = 215
Nob w waaagh banner = 79
30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180
meka dread (kff, dreadklaw, rattler kannon) = 221?
2000 total
That's about as good as I can get a TAC list and hopefully the mekadread doesn't cost to much with a kff. The deffkoptas are a single unit and the Mek guns a single unit. 13 drops since gwFAQ today confirmed kommandos and all reserve units count as drops for first turn.
I'm. It sure how effective kommandos will be at tying up shooting units I might be better off with another 15 stormboys w nob w big choppa. ( I just don't have the models yet for that)
I played against my friend who played his Nids. 1000 points.
DON'T LET GENESTEALERS INTO MELEE! DAKKA THEM TO SHREADS ALL YOU LIKE BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GORK AND MORK THEY WILL TEAR THROUGH YOUR BOYZ!
I made that mistake and it cost me dearly. Other than that my nob goonsquad with my painboy absolutely annihilated his hive tyrant. I had a battlewagon that got some decent shooting in the first turn but then it got tied up in melee for the rest of the game and I don't have a deffrolla sprue so it pretty much was just there tie up some of his units after my first turn. The +1 attack warlord trait is quite nice on a warboss with a powerklaw.
Also, the strategem that lets a unit strike first against chargers is very powerful.
More things: don't surprised if a trukk with a wreckin' ball misses all its hits, my trukk was in 2 rounds of combat and it got a whopping 1 hit (and it needed a 3 to wound but rolled a 2). I was sad about it's poor performance but in hindsight hitting on 5s is pretty bad. Nice that the wreckin' ball is cheap as chips though.
Boyz evaporate before large numbers of attacks. The 6+ save makes them SOOOO squishy. The 6+ FNP from the painboy does give them a slight increase in durability, but if a unit can put out tons of attacks like genestealers or a large amount of hormagaunts, they'll drop in droves. And then you're sad cuzz ya boyz iz ded.
Hey guys, I've noticed something strange about the wording of the wazbom blastajet. It says; this model may replace both wazbom mega-kannons with TWO tellyport mega-blasta. So does this mean that you can equip the wazbom with 4 tellyport mega-blastas?
Since you may replace both of them with two, not one or a, but two. If you look at other units where two weapons may be replaced, like dreads, they say "a" not two...
Gruxz wrote: Hey guys, I've noticed something strange about the wording of the wazbom blastajet. It says; this model may replace both wazbom mega-kannons with TWO tellyport mega-blasta. So does this mean that you can equip the wazbom with 4 tellyport mega-blastas?
Since you may replace both of them with two, not one or a, but two. If you look at other units where two weapons may be replaced, like dreads, they say "a" not two...
What do you guys think?
As it says BOTH instead of A, I think it's pretty safe to assume that you swap each mega-kannon for one tellyporta- blasta, however you can only have mega-kannons or tellyporta blastas equiped; hence the BOTH.
What are some of the best things you guys are building in your lists to take advantage of command points? For example, taking 15 Lootas so you can deliberately reroll the number of shots when you roll one.
Rismonite wrote: What are some of the best things you guys are building in your lists to take advantage of command points? For example, taking 15 Lootas so you can deliberately reroll the number of shots when you roll one.
Hey so a while back I remember that it was being discussed if Ere We go lets you choose to only re-roll one dice. Was it ever proven one way or the other? I showed my club the Re-rolls section of the rule book that was posted on here a while back stating what re-rolls do, but they argued it was simply telling you what they do instead of giving permission to only re-roll certain dice in the case of ere we go which honestly seems very fair.
Now I am not good at all with debating RAW so I was hoping someone on here could set me straight with some proof one way or the other.
Rismonite wrote: What are some of the best things you guys are building in your lists to take advantage of command points? For example, taking 15 Lootas so you can deliberately reroll the number of shots when you roll one.
Bubble chukka w command points reroll is absolutely brutal.
Roll 4 die, reroll lowest into something better, then take lowest and put it into AP, opponent takes next lowest and likely drops it into strength you then choose either more atks or more damage depending on your intended target. You will usually end up with something like 6 atks at str4 ap-2 and 5 damage. I would have rather like to see str be die +1, but with command points the bubblemchukka is a very orks and can be extremely powerful. However if you roll 4 die extremely poorly like 1,1,2,3,4. Save the command point reroll as you clubbed that roll that turn.
@Tibs Ironblood; It was never proven one way or the other - imo it's pretty clear that it's simply describing what dice can potentially be re-rolled, depending on the rule; in the case of 'Ere We Go, since a charge roll rolls two dice, and 'Ere We Go rerolls charge rolls - it seems that it's 2d6 or nothing.
If you want 1d6, you'll need to use a command point.
But again, it hasn't been clarified one way or the other - I'd go with the more fair interpretation.
Got another game of 8th in today, let me share my limited findings.
Boyz: Amazing. I used Ghaz and Warpath and carved through units of Primaris Marines like they were nothing. That same unit of boyz then charged his BUFF BUBBLE unit and had 14 boyz and 1 nob left out of a squad of 27 (this is turn 3 mind you) They wiped them out with the Nob delivering the Coup De Grace with his Big choppa. Totally worth their points when properly buffed.
Nobz with Big Choppas: I was not impressed, I fielded 5 Nobz with Big Choppas and they were lackluster at best. I think my next game im going to have to try the Klaws out.
Ghaz: Beat stick....simple as that, when he wasn't buffing every ork near him he was eating Rhinos and pummeling Primaris Marines.
Weirdboy: So....Smite is amazing. Turn 1 My weirdboy who was near 20 Ork boyz was able to see a Scout squad camping a tower near my lines so he went Brrrrt and rolled a 9 +2 = 11. I rolled a 6 with my D6 and killed 3 Scouts with bolters 1 with a sniper rifle and a sergeant Beyond that his power was "Da Jump" and I never got to use it because of how the game turned out. I did use a 2nd weird boy for Warpath and yeah....nice.
Killa Kanz: I ran 12 Killa Kanz in 2 squads armed with Rokkitz. They did piss poor. Not their fault I don't think, just the way the game was set up and what was across from them. (Plasma Cannons at max range) they did manage to kill 3 scouts with their rokkitz and then rolled over a speed bump 10 man SM assault squad but then the game ended before they could achieve their primary objective, silencing those plasma Cannons.
Kommandos: Not impressed with their ability to do much. I used 3 squads of 5 kommandos, each armed with a Nob/BC and 2 Burnas because they are free so why not? First off, the burnas did almost nothing the entire game, it was actually rather disappointing. This has more to do with the Ork boyz stats and the D3 then anything else. In the shooting phase it does D3 which sucks, its basically 2 hits and 1 wound against T4 with no AP modifier, this sucks, I can't over state how crap that is. Then in the assault phase its only 2 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s against T4. This won't even kill a MEQ on average. The Nob with BC didn't do much better and their cover save bonus was negligible to say the least. Now with that negativity out of the way they are a GREAT distraction unit. Each one tied up an enemy units attention for at least 1 turn and caused at least 1 wound against their targets before dying gloriously. So in reality they aren't anything other then a distraction unit to allow your boyz and more choppy brethren to close with and destroy the enemy.
And the Big one.
Deffkoptas: WOW!!!!! First off I tried 2 units of 3, each armed with the KMB to give it a shot. First impression with the KMB? UTTER CRAP!!!! I hurt myself more then the enemy with this thing. Once they got into CC however, they were still crap! the D3 hits instead of 1 is nice and gives it 4 attacks on average but they are only S5 and no AP Modifier so most Marines just shrug it off (3 models = 12 attacks hitting on 3s for 8 hits wounding on 3s for 5-6 wounds against a 3+ = 2 Dead Marines.)
So why are the Deff Koptas so great? two words "Big Bomm" This thing is the absolute destroyer of worlds for Ork Players. My 2 units became bogged down by 2 units of Tac Marines so what did they do? Disengaged, flew over them and dropped a total of 5 bombs between the two units that UTTERLY destroyed them both it was brilliant.
Nobz with Big Choppas: I was not impressed, I fielded 5 Nobz with Big Choppas and they were lackluster at best. I think my next game im going to have to try the Klaws out.
They seem to do best against big things, especially those with T6 (S7 getting them 3+ to wound) and combine that with two damage and the -1 is a nice bonus. As I said, my nobz squad absolutely destroyed a Hive Tyrant. I ran them in a mixed unit with 2 Klaws and 3 Big Choppas, mainly because Klaws are TWENTY FIVE ZOGGIN' POINTS!
The same nob squad was just barely able to whittle through the hormagaunt squad I mentioned, so they definiately do poorly against a large amount of weaker infantry. I wouldn't hesitate to throw them at enemy elite infantry though.
So after four games in 8th I feel our best unit hands down is....nob with a WAAAGH banner. I'll probably make two more of these things hitting on 2+ /3+ w klaw is such a game changer that whenever I don't have him near it feels not worth it. Anyone feel the same way? Currently using an AoBR nob with w fantasy black Ork banner arm anyone got creative ideas for banners?
Probably good to pepper in shootas somehwere? Basically two huge warbands with every buff imaginable and a trukk to deploy the 12 characters in perfectly (7 units to deploy) if they have alot of snipers or for shenanigans, weirdboy auto pass jump on cheapest unit turn one after warpath cast on them surround the humies. Two squads clipped to 28 for points. Prob can force aircraft off the board mid game with clever jump and spread. Painboyz fix whichever weirdboy perils the most triple D6 autopass mortal wound smite the big nasty stuff.
Shootas? How many/where?
This is similar to the list I'm using but I like using ghaz to get those ork boys really fighting over 2 warbosses (he has a 6 inch mob rule range), 1 nob with banner,
I've found I've had to put the mek on bikes to get the required range to cover 180 boys with the KFF.
Battalion
Ghaz
Big Mek bike KFF 30 boyz big choppa
29 boyz big choppa
29 boyz big choppa
29 boyz big choppa
29 boyz big choppa
29 boyz big choppa
Trukk, big shoota
Vanguard
Big Mek bike KFF Painboy klaw
Painboy klaw
Nob Banner
Supreme Command
Weirdboy da jump
Weirdboy warpath
Weirdboy da jump
I would like another 2 weirdboys but would have to drop the trukk and some more boys/big choppas
Rismonite wrote: Has anybody else noticed that we can't move our transport before we disembark now :(
The tradeoff seems to be we get three inches to disembark and can then move, but feels nerfy.
It is a slight nerf for things that were previously assault vehicles (you are effectively losing 4", 3" from the original vehicle move and 1" because boyz are only 5" move now) but for non-assault vehicles its a buff because you can get out of a rhino and charge instead of standing there.
Given all the other things we gained from this addition (orks that is) I have no issues with this slight nerf.
SemperMortis wrote: Got another game of 8th in today, let me share my limited findings.
Boyz: Amazing. I used Ghaz and Warpath and carved through units of Primaris Marines like they were nothing. That same unit of boyz then charged his BUFF BUBBLE unit and had 14 boyz and 1 nob left out of a squad of 27 (this is turn 3 mind you) They wiped them out with the Nob delivering the Coup De Grace with his Big choppa. Totally worth their points when properly buffed.
Nobz with Big Choppas: I was not impressed, I fielded 5 Nobz with Big Choppas and they were lackluster at best. I think my next game im going to have to try the Klaws out.
Ghaz: Beat stick....simple as that, when he wasn't buffing every ork near him he was eating Rhinos and pummeling Primaris Marines.
Weirdboy: So....Smite is amazing. Turn 1 My weirdboy who was near 20 Ork boyz was able to see a Scout squad camping a tower near my lines so he went Brrrrt and rolled a 9 +2 = 11. I rolled a 6 with my D6 and killed 3 Scouts with bolters 1 with a sniper rifle and a sergeant Beyond that his power was "Da Jump" and I never got to use it because of how the game turned out. I did use a 2nd weird boy for Warpath and yeah....nice.
Killa Kanz: I ran 12 Killa Kanz in 2 squads armed with Rokkitz. They did piss poor. Not their fault I don't think, just the way the game was set up and what was across from them. (Plasma Cannons at max range) they did manage to kill 3 scouts with their rokkitz and then rolled over a speed bump 10 man SM assault squad but then the game ended before they could achieve their primary objective, silencing those plasma Cannons.
Kommandos: Not impressed with their ability to do much. I used 3 squads of 5 kommandos, each armed with a Nob/BC and 2 Burnas because they are free so why not? First off, the burnas did almost nothing the entire game, it was actually rather disappointing. This has more to do with the Ork boyz stats and the D3 then anything else. In the shooting phase it does D3 which sucks, its basically 2 hits and 1 wound against T4 with no AP modifier, this sucks, I can't over state how crap that is. Then in the assault phase its only 2 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s against T4. This won't even kill a MEQ on average. The Nob with BC didn't do much better and their cover save bonus was negligible to say the least. Now with that negativity out of the way they are a GREAT distraction unit. Each one tied up an enemy units attention for at least 1 turn and caused at least 1 wound against their targets before dying gloriously. So in reality they aren't anything other then a distraction unit to allow your boyz and more choppy brethren to close with and destroy the enemy.
And the Big one.
Deffkoptas: WOW!!!!! First off I tried 2 units of 3, each armed with the KMB to give it a shot. First impression with the KMB? UTTER CRAP!!!! I hurt myself more then the enemy with this thing. Once they got into CC however, they were still crap! the D3 hits instead of 1 is nice and gives it 4 attacks on average but they are only S5 and no AP Modifier so most Marines just shrug it off (3 models = 12 attacks hitting on 3s for 8 hits wounding on 3s for 5-6 wounds against a 3+ = 2 Dead Marines.)
So why are the Deff Koptas so great? two words "Big Bomm" This thing is the absolute destroyer of worlds for Ork Players. My 2 units became bogged down by 2 units of Tac Marines so what did they do? Disengaged, flew over them and dropped a total of 5 bombs between the two units that UTTERLY destroyed them both it was brilliant.
so I'm assuming you won and orks aren't as awful as you claimed they were. Regarding kommandos they are simply small units of Ork boys that cost 3 pots more but free burnas. A 4+ sv isn't great this edition. And the burnas aren't usable turn 1 infiltrate so thier only good for overwatch and ok for assault considering they are a basic boys best avail melee wpn. It's just another reason I think burna squads are not good
And really dont warrant d3 from the usual d6 most flamers got. However they are as you said kommandos are a distraction unit so your opponent deals with the immediate threat or if you are lucky the kommandos can tie up a shooting unit, artillery, or something similar. For the same points you could get a stormboy squad however but I'm not sure which will be better as again they are just faster moving unbuffed boys.
You can try the twin big shoots on the deffkoptas it's 5pts more each but you get more shots they are just much weaker but could be useful vs tyranids and guard armies.
gungo wrote: Question does deffkoptas ignore hard to hit rules for flyers in the shooting phase?
No. It'll be in the weapon profile if that's the case.
Ya I don't see any anti flyer unit ignoring that rule even the traktor gun which is our anti flyer or dakkajet. Which makes shooting flyers extremely difficult with orks. I was hoping units with flying rules had some interaction that ignored that rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the kmb deffkoptas and I don't have a lot of points to spare!
Ghazkull = 215
Nob w waaagh banner = 79
30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoota) = 180
30 boys (20 choppa/10 shoots) = 180
meka dread (kff, dreadklaw, rattler kannon) = 221?
2000 total
That's about as good as I can get a TAC list and hopefully the mekadread doesn't cost to much with a kff. The deffkoptas are a single unit and the Mek guns a single unit. 13 drops since gwFAQ today confirmed kommandos and all reserve units count as drops for first turn.
I'm. It sure how effective kommandos will be at tying up shooting units I might be better off with another 15 stormboys w nob w big choppa. ( I just don't have the models yet for that)
You can only take one bomb squigs per 5 tankbustas.
so I'm assuming you won and orks aren't as awful as you claimed they were. Regarding kommandos they are simply small units of Ork boys that cost 3 pots more but free burnas. A 4+ sv isn't great this edition. And the burnas aren't usable turn 1 infiltrate so thier only good for overwatch and ok for assault considering they are a basic boys best avail melee wpn. It's just another reason I think burna squads are not good And really dont warrant d3 from the usual d6 most flamers got. However they are as you said kommandos are a distraction unit so your opponent deals with the immediate threat or if you are lucky the kommandos can tie up a shooting unit, artillery, or something similar. For the same points you could get a stormboy squad however but I'm not sure which will be better as again they are just faster moving unbuffed boys.
You can try the twin big shoots on the deffkoptas it's 5pts more each but you get more shots they are just much weaker but could be useful vs tyranids and guard armies.
Nope, I am still relatively sure orkz are going to be piss poor, its just a new edition so its going to take players a bit to adjust to the fact that Orkz can now get across the board without dying first. Also the assault from Deep strike/outflank/scout/infiltrate whatever is huge for us because we can deploy 4 throw away Kommando units to snipe back field objectives/units and even though they don't have much fighting prowess they have to be dealt with or else.
As far as my game went, I think he fethed up royally because he brought far to much expensive stuff and not enough dakka. He fielded 2 squads of Plasma Primaris Marines, 1 Squad of Primaris assault Marines, a fully outfitted Assault squad and 2 separate buff bubbles. He also brought Plasma Cannons and would have been better off bringing Missile launchers.
And I didn't try out any of the units I think are going to be absolute CRAP like Burna Boyz, Painboyz, Mork/Gork, Stompa, flash gitz, warbikes, Meganobz. But I did get a chance to try out a lot of the units I think im going to be building my lists around and I have come to the conclusion that Deff Koptas are INVALUABLE. I would recommend giving at least one of them the Saw blades because those 2D3 attacks at S5 just don't do as much as you think they would. (unit of 3 = 12 attacks on average) and the biggest takeaway was the Bomm was AMAZING.
so I'm assuming you won and orks aren't as awful as you claimed they were. Regarding kommandos they are simply small units of Ork boys that cost 3 pots more but free burnas. A 4+ sv isn't great this edition. And the burnas aren't usable turn 1 infiltrate so thier only good for overwatch and ok for assault considering they are a basic boys best avail melee wpn. It's just another reason I think burna squads are not good
And really dont warrant d3 from the usual d6 most flamers got. However they are as you said kommandos are a distraction unit so your opponent deals with the immediate threat or if you are lucky the kommandos can tie up a shooting unit, artillery, or something similar. For the same points you could get a stormboy squad however but I'm not sure which will be better as again they are just faster moving unbuffed boys.
You can try the twin big shoots on the deffkoptas it's 5pts more each but you get more shots they are just much weaker but could be useful vs tyranids and guard armies.
Nope, I am still relatively sure orkz are going to be piss poor, its just a new edition so its going to take players a bit to adjust to the fact that Orkz can now get across the board without dying first. Also the assault from Deep strike/outflank/scout/infiltrate whatever is huge for us because we can deploy 4 throw away Kommando units to snipe back field objectives/units and even though they don't have much fighting prowess they have to be dealt with or else.
As far as my game went, I think he fethed up royally because he brought far to much expensive stuff and not enough dakka. He fielded 2 squads of Plasma Primaris Marines, 1 Squad of Primaris assault Marines, a fully outfitted Assault squad and 2 separate buff bubbles. He also brought Plasma Cannons and would have been better off bringing Missile launchers.
And I didn't try out any of the units I think are going to be absolute CRAP like Burna Boyz, Painboyz, Mork/Gork, Stompa, flash gitz, warbikes, Meganobz. But I did get a chance to try out a lot of the units I think im going to be building my lists around and I have come to the conclusion that Deff Koptas are INVALUABLE. I would recommend giving at least one of them the Saw blades because those 2D3 attacks at S5 just don't do as much as you think they would. (unit of 3 = 12 attacks on average) and the biggest takeaway was the Bomm was AMAZING.
Yeah; I have a hard time thinking Orks will be solid enough this edition - there's a lot of stuff that can kill hordes, and their anti-armor just isn't reliable enough (neither are their ramshackle vehicles).
IG outshoot and outfight anything Ork via Conscripts, let alone the rest of the artillery backline hiding behind terrain and wiping you out - also, missile launchers are pro versus orks; d6 vs hordes, and a solid s8 shot vs vehicles. They're super versatile. I know there's more to the game than just Imperium; however since Imperium can mix and match to their hearts content, Imperium lists (even if it's an SM core) will be a reasonable amount of the field at a tournament.
I'm not sure what points you were playing at, but I'm not sold on a Primaris Marine only list; they're essentially just Space Marine Nobz - and it looks like all his firepower was dedicated to fight other Power Armored armies.
Burna Boyz just aren't going to be good, d3 shots is nothing, even if they are power weapons in melee. Painboyz look ok, apparently the math on them and a KFF is 45% (but I'm still not sold on 6+ only). Morkanauts - pointless for the points cost; Gorkanauts on the other hand seem ok - but their shooting is pointless, you hope they draw enough fire and and make it to melee. That said, 18 wounds is nothing on them; the only reason mine lasted more than a couple turns is because my opponent flubbed a million to hit/wound rolls with missiles. Stompa - wayyy overpriced; Flash Gitz - overpriced; perhaps fun, but they don't do enough for their cost (even against MEQ that they're designed to fight). Warbikes are fun, they're pretty durable at 2 wounds and 4+ armor save and can output some shooting via 6 attacks each (probably best as a distraction/tarpit unit). Meganobz - no, just, no; never bring them; compare them to Custodes if you want to see how underpowered they really are. And having no Invuln save... what's the point.
I'm struggling to see how Orks survive once the meta adjusts.
Dakkajets are fun as hell though, and should reliably reach the target and output some pain on them (18 shots, BS4+ ). Great for hitting those key backline SM/IG targets.
Have the transport disembarking limitations been difficult for anyone else in 8th so far? I want to be able to move my transport, disembark, and then charge ...and I can't do that anymore. Since models have to disembark from transports before the transport has moved. Particularly with Trukks, having to leave the squad inside for a full extra turn before I can disembark and charge seems bad...
Painboy are ok but mad doc is better. Warbikers will be good, especially when I see what zhardsnark brings even if it's just a warboss on bike w a Pk that hits without neg modifier. Morkanaut is only good for the kff and the mekadread is better for it. The gorkanaut is a beast and decent in a dread list. Kustom stompa is just going to be better although I need to see prices on weapons and shields. Flashgits people have been doing well with them although I don't have any and never saw the need. Burnas suck, meganobs I'm not a fan of at all. Eadbanger is the worst psychic power in game. Orks will be fine and more competitive then a majority of the armies out there. I think ynnari will be decent, some form of imperium soup will be the top list, some form of chaos soup will do well, necrons might do ok and orks are right There with necrons.. Eldar/dark eldar (non ynari) suck, tau are not great, Tyranids are like less synergy orks, ad mech sucks, sisters (not Celestine) and a bunch of imperial armies suck by themselves, guard are good though. Orks will be competitive becuase every other army was beat down hard while orks mostly received upgrades. Not every Ork unit is an all star.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: 2 bomb squigs per 5 tankbustas, gungo's list is ok.
I also wanted to try the full tankbustas BW with 15 bustas and 5 bomb squigs, seems very nice
I fully expect to play vs imperial knights or equivilant so I need a solid way to deal with them. A battlewagon touching a kff bubble should be able to weather the first turn barrage. And hopefully the busta wagon can get in tankbusta bomb range to annihilate it first turn. After my opponent learns not to move his knight forward until the busta wagon is dead. Then it will take 2 turns for 1 knight with all my str8 shooting.
so I'm assuming you won and orks aren't as awful as you claimed they were. Regarding kommandos they are simply small units of Ork boys that cost 3 pots more but free burnas. A 4+ sv isn't great this edition. And the burnas aren't usable turn 1 infiltrate so thier only good for overwatch and ok for assault considering they are a basic boys best avail melee wpn. It's just another reason I think burna squads are not good
And really dont warrant d3 from the usual d6 most flamers got. However they are as you said kommandos are a distraction unit so your opponent deals with the immediate threat or if you are lucky the kommandos can tie up a shooting unit, artillery, or something similar. For the same points you could get a stormboy squad however but I'm not sure which will be better as again they are just faster moving unbuffed boys.
You can try the twin big shoots on the deffkoptas it's 5pts more each but you get more shots they are just much weaker but could be useful vs tyranids and guard armies.
Nope, I am still relatively sure orkz are going to be piss poor, its just a new edition so its going to take players a bit to adjust to the fact that Orkz can now get across the board without dying first. Also the assault from Deep strike/outflank/scout/infiltrate whatever is huge for us because we can deploy 4 throw away Kommando units to snipe back field objectives/units and even though they don't have much fighting prowess they have to be dealt with or else.
As far as my game went, I think he fethed up royally because he brought far to much expensive stuff and not enough dakka. He fielded 2 squads of Plasma Primaris Marines, 1 Squad of Primaris assault Marines, a fully outfitted Assault squad and 2 separate buff bubbles. He also brought Plasma Cannons and would have been better off bringing Missile launchers.
And I didn't try out any of the units I think are going to be absolute CRAP like Burna Boyz, Painboyz, Mork/Gork, Stompa, flash gitz, warbikes, Meganobz. But I did get a chance to try out a lot of the units I think im going to be building my lists around and I have come to the conclusion that Deff Koptas are INVALUABLE. I would recommend giving at least one of them the Saw blades because those 2D3 attacks at S5 just don't do as much as you think they would. (unit of 3 = 12 attacks on average) and the biggest takeaway was the Bomm was AMAZING.
Thanks for the mini bat-rep Semp,
Interesting, I saw the math on the kopta KMB's and aren't very impressed. The bomms however....yeh I like those Maybe it would simply be worth running koptas at min cost to squeeze as many into a list as possible, Maybe this is the Ork bombing edition! flood the board with boyz and bomb the crap out of everything else! Yeh I also never expected the kommando's to achieve much, but with the whole falling back stuff they can be a real pain in the ass. Would be interesting to see how well they work as 1 larger blob of 15. Makes them more likely to kill what backfield shooty thing they tie up. How did you find charging from the 9"?
I've run kommandoes 2 times. And i advocate min squads. 9' charges are risky. You also don't get to pay for burnas and a nob. So, the more of this 'free' gear you get - the better. Also, more squads = more versatility. In my opinion they're not really suited as a standalone force simply cause there's ~50% chance they won't make the charge. But it's not as big a deal if you don't exactly rely on kommandoes to do the job. Use them to supplement your other forces. Used them this way and they were ok.
And as for the increased number of squads forcing you to go second...you didn't expect to go first with orks, did ya?
fe40k wrote: I'm struggling to see how Orks survive once the meta adjusts.
I think there are 2 different scenarios to this
1 - "I am playing against Orks so i am going to build a list that will beat them" - Marine armies seem to have alot of tools to deal with a variety of opponents, a tailored army v orks would be harder to counter and the odds would be stacked against you.
2 - "Here is my tournament army list tailored to fight MEQ, how do I beat Orks with it?" - With a tournament list mentality most armies arnt going to be tailored vs Orks so the playing field is alot more level. Ork armies probably wouldnt change much depending on opponent as we dont have the wide variety of weapon options that marines have so an ork army is generally a 'takes on all comers' list.
If you play alot of '1' style games where people tailor their armies just to take on Orks then you might be in for some pain but if you play more tournament practice '2' style games then i think thats where Orks will do alot better
Orks are competitive becuase everyone else got nerfed hard.
Only super competitive list I've seen is imperial soup, ynnari is ok, chaos should be alright and necrons alright. Orks are up there w necrons maybe chaos. Everyone else is still reeling from severe nerfage. Tyranids got better but lack the synergy and force multiplier that Ork characters give and have a harder time vs vehicles then orks. Not everything orks can field is competitive.
they assault well, but most of thier hqs don't beef up thier troops just provide morale bonus (and one unit gives cover). I'm not saying thier not decent but I think they are very manageable and assault focused. Especially if they don't get that first turn charge. They are weaker then orks vs vehicles and I think orks will have a hard enough time with things like imperial knights. They have a lot of units that are in that vulnerable spot of str5/6 toughness 5/6 4+sv (that's like trukk range) where a lot of weapons can lay some wounds down. Most of the battlereps I see orks are winning against nids. And I did mention nids because I think they are better then They were prior but orks can actually lay some support Fire down and can assault almost as well for cheaper. Ork boys are dirt cheap and properly supported lay down 4/5x str 4 hits per boy that hits on a 2+. It's pretty brutal for the cost especially when they get can get a 5++ vs shooting.
So I took a sneak peak in the Index in the shop the other day, and noticed the bit about clans where it said units with a <clan> must declare what clan they are part of (which is fine) and that special rules only applying to units with the same clan as the giver (in their example an Evil Suns warboss only inspiring Evil Suns). Have I understood this correctly?
Aside from this being anti-thematic to all the background on Waaghs, how has everyone else been dealing with this on a tactical level?
Either you declare Ork boys who are clearly modelled from different clans as the same one, or you remodel every Ork in your army to be from the same clan.
The second options seems the most sensible (if a bit painful!), however, surely then we will see lots of silly things like Goff Flash Gits and Snakebite Lootas just to make sure that the buffs are applicable across the whole army?
Paint scheme has not, does not and will not matter when it comes to rules on the tabletop. I have a unit of boys painted as gifts. Some of my own clan (warboss' clan - 'ead smashas or 'ead stompas - can't decide exactly on a name but something that emphasizes their propensity to smash your face. Literally like step and squash). My lootas are deff skulls. My meganobz will be bad moons. All my vehicles are red (evil suns). I will throw in more of my clan as well as I go. But even though they are al different scheme, their clan is 'ead crushas (or whatever..tbd). The only time this matters is when you use snikrot for example. His buff to blood axes wouldn't apply to my 'ead boyz (hahahah Ed edd eddy).
Youre just going to have to paint them as you want and use goff clan. Zagstrukk and ghaz are goff, Maddoc is deathskull but oddly circumvents the clan rules and can heal any Ork (the only issue is the banner nob won't work on him), flash gits are not part of any clan and never get buffs, and our only other character is snikrot who is a bloodaxe and doesn't deploy near anyone else. So as of right now it's not a huge issue rulewise. Maybe fluff wise it will annoy people but really just paint them as you want.
Paint scheme has not, does not and will not matter when it comes to rules on the tabletop
Yea I'm not disputing that, and perhaps this is the wrong thread for the question.
I was thinking that this more a WYSIWYG issue now that the 'clans' directly interact with the rules.
Essentially, unless you run Ghazgull, I can't see how to run a competitive multi-clan Ork force without using 'counts as' Edit: Doesn't Ghazz circumvent the Clan buff restrictions also?
Ghaz doesn't have any clan restrictions. Right now Zaggy and Snikrot are the only guys that call out a specific clan. Bosses don't have clan restrictions for Waaagh, but do for Breakin' Heads. Painboys and Meks have the clan keyword restriction for fixing stuff, but Grotsnik does not.
Not a huge issue right now, but we'll see with the codex.
You are right he does so the only 2 that matter are zagstrukk and snikrot however it's the banner nob that doesn't work on these characters unless they are part of his clan.
If anything to be annoyed about its flashgits are no clan so never gets clan buffs unless it's from ghaz or Maddoc.
I think shooty armies that are able to bubble wrap and fall back are a big problems for orks.
You cannot overshoot them and after you charge your boyz will be be buried by bullets....
The only way i see is that you need to be able to charge simultaneously with more units at the same time to reduce the amount of fire back. And it wont work with a proper bubble wrap e.g. kroots horde around shooty units
The second options seems the most sensible (if a bit painful!), however, surely then we will see lots of silly things like Goff Flash Gits and Snakebite Lootas just to make sure that the buffs are applicable across the whole army?
Why do you consider silly a unit of flash gitz painted with goffs colours? Do you think that only bad moons have flash gitz? I don't like ork armies painted with a thousand different colours just because some clans have typical units. Every ork faction uses trukks and bikes, they are not an evil sunz exclusive, for example. Every model in my army has the same colour scheme, and my goffs flash gitz don't look silly. An army with some models in yellow, some other ones in red, blue or camouflage looks silly But if you like the idea of an army composed by mixed clans I totally respect that.
Only named characters belonging to a specific clan may look silly if painted with a colour scheme which isn't the one they should have, but I don't care about that either as I love snikrot and I can't stand the camouflage colour scheme, he's not painted yet but he will have the goffs colours too. Any ork clan has billions of soldiers and stuff, it doesn't seem unrealistic if they all can rely on the entire ork catalogue.
It was just an example, I have nothing against your particular models! Flash Gits are famous for garish colours and jewellery whilst Goffs are serious and only approve of dour clothing.
I was concerned that tactics wise a multi-clan army would be under powered due to not being able to take advantage of the same buffs as mono-clan armies. However, it seems many of the best buffs from people like Mad Dok and Ghaz apply across clan lines so there is still space to field a multi clan army.
As it is I only have Snakebites in my collection at present. I was considering adding some Bad Moon shoota boys to rounds out my forces but I will bin off that idea now!
what do you guyz think of flash gitz. They seem to be an interestng choice for footslogging cause they can take relatively cheap ammo runts to eat enemy fire - to an extent - and you can fit a bunch of squads under kff. And together with badrukk they look like a semi-solid firebase for orks.
oh wait. They're 27 ppm. 31 wit an ammo runt. Forget about it! I can have 5 boyz for the price of each of them! Well, i guess badrukk can go on his own.
I'd like them a lot better if they had the 4+ armor their price would imply. Still not sure the best way to use them. They might make a better Jump target than a mob of shoota boyz in some cases.
I do like Badrukk, but I think he goes better with Tankbustas honestly.
koooaei wrote: what do you guyz think of flash gitz. They seem to be an interestng choice for footslogging cause they can take relatively cheap ammo runts to eat enemy fire - to an extent - and you can fit a bunch of squads under kff. And together with badrukk they look like a semi-solid firebase for orks.
They're certainly more viable now than in 7th ed where they were hit or miss. Either way, I think my main issue for them footslogging is their relatively short range of 24". For them to move into position they take a -1 to hit penalty and now that re-rolls work before modifiers its going to be hard to maintain a steady amount of shooting even with ammo runts.
I feel like battlewagon riding flash gitz may still be the go-to since it gives the protection they need from enemy shooting (and more importantly psychic powers), and until its explicitly FAQ'ed, it looks like they get to move and shoot in a battlewagon without suffering the -1 to hit thanks to mobile fortress. Makes them lose out on buffs, but being able to run and gun at full capacity is worth it IMO, especially now that the battlewagon helps buffer against assault units as well, since they can pop out of the transport if the battlewagon is engaged and shoot them up after the battlewagon subsequently falls back.
JohnU wrote: I'd like them a lot better if they had the 4+ armor their price would imply. Still not sure the best way to use them. They might make a better Jump target than a mob of shoota boyz in some cases.
I do like Badrukk, but I think he goes better with Tankbustas honestly.
Why would he go well with Tankbustas? Do you mean just in the same transport because Flash Gitz are bad?
The issue with Flash Gitz is that their guns are heavy making it so they cannot really utilize their good BS. If they has Assault weapons I think they would actually be decent. If they could move and fire their 24" guns 3 times at BS 4+, with re-rolls they would be worth considering. As it is A squad would frequently be BS 5+ and cost 310 points for a 10 model unit with ammo runts.
Currently their shooting at full strength is killing 7 marines in shooting. I would kill 10 if it had BS 4+.
They are not terrible, just very exepensive with good offense and no defense.
Yeah, but 20 gits in a wagon are 720 pts. They'll be killing around 13-14 marines per turn with their firepower. So, it's gona require them around 4 turns to start paying off. In ideal circumstances vs marines in the open. Not amazing.
To be honest i'd rather transport something mellee like bigchoppa nobz that are decent at wrecking vehicles at least.
JohnU wrote: I'd like them a lot better if they had the 4+ armor their price would imply. Still not sure the best way to use them. They might make a better Jump target than a mob of shoota boyz in some cases.
I do like Badrukk, but I think he goes better with Tankbustas honestly.
Why would he go well with Tankbustas? Do you mean just in the same transport because Flash Gitz are bad?
Their guns are a similar profile so he can contribute his shooting to the TB unit without feeling wasteful. He's also fairly tanky and his runts along with bomb squigs provide a decent number to chaff wounds for a unit that's more fragile than Gitz.
Putting him with Gitz, his bonus is largely pointless since you want to take ammo runts anyway (and it doesn't work in a wagon). Snazzguns aren't great against tougher targets like Da Rippa. Sure you can split fire, but you're not taking something down with Badrukk alone and he's not doing anything for the squad he's following around. A KFF mek would probably be more useful to the Gitz for similar points.
JohnU wrote: I'd like them a lot better if they had the 4+ armor their price would imply. Still not sure the best way to use them. They might make a better Jump target than a mob of shoota boyz in some cases.
I do like Badrukk, but I think he goes better with Tankbustas honestly.
Why would he go well with Tankbustas? Do you mean just in the same transport because Flash Gitz are bad?
Their guns are a similar profile so he can contribute his shooting to the TB unit without feeling wasteful. He's also fairly tanky and his runts along with bomb squigs provide a decent number to chaff wounds for a unit that's more fragile than Gitz.
Putting him with Gitz, his bonus is largely pointless since you want to take ammo runts anyway (and it doesn't work in a wagon). Snazzguns aren't great against tougher targets like Da Rippa. Sure you can split fire, but you're not taking something down with Badrukk alone and he's not doing anything for the squad he's following around. A KFF mek would probably be more useful to the Gitz for similar points.
The issue is that short of deaths to vehicles dying his runts cannot be chaff for the Tank bustas, he also cannot tank for them as he is a separate unit. So he is not really doing anything for the Tankbustas either, except adding his damage to theirs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: Yeah, but 20 gits in a wagon are 720 pts. They'll be killing around 13-14 marines per turn with their firepower. So, it's gona require them around 4 turns to start paying off. In ideal circumstances vs marines in the open. Not amazing.
To be honest i'd rather transport something mellee like bigchoppa nobz that are decent at wrecking vehicles at least.
Yup, that is why assault would make a big difference, at that point their doing 20 wounds to marines each turn.
I think badrukk flashiest git ability is a waste.
First flashgits should be in a battlewagon since thier 24in range and heavy weapons means they need to move and take a -1 hit modifier unless in a battlewagon. Once in a battle Wagon badrukk ability doesnt work.
If you put them on foot badrukk ability is still only marginally useful since you already get up to 10 free rerolls from runts and you can't reroll a die.
What would have made flashgits good is if badrukk ability rerolled to wound rolls of 1. Then at least the weak str of the gun wouldn't be as bad since you had a better chance at rolling that 5 or 6 you needed. They cost so much and although they have a lot of ablative wounds they aren't that great offensively or durable. If you have the command points for rerolls just take lootas they are much better for the points.
@Breng: Sorry, forgot to clarify in combat. TB can bug out while Badrukk holds the charging unit. Not great, but TB don't want to be in CC. Not sure he's worth running, but I'd put him with TB over Gitz even just for the added damage.
As for Gitz they've gotten better, but it's still the same issue they had before. Lootas are shootier, Nobs are choppier (and with Kustom Shootas can be almost as shooty), both are cheaper than Gitz and can engage a wider range of targets. I want to take these pretty models off the shelf they seem really narrow right now.
JohnU wrote: @Breng: Sorry, forgot to clarify in combat. TB can bug out while Badrukk holds the charging unit. Not great, but TB don't want to be in CC. Not sure he's worth running, but I'd put him with TB over Gitz even just for the added damage.
As for Gitz they've gotten better, but it's still the same issue they had before. Lootas are shootier, Nobs are choppier (and with Kustom Shootas can be almost as shooty), both are cheaper than Gitz and can engage a wider range of targets. I want to take these pretty models off the shelf they seem really narrow right now.
mostly agree, I think though that it is likely if your tankbustas got charged they are going to die, wheter Badrukk is there or not. Also being slow, if they fall back on your turn, your opponent kills Badrukk and then charges the bustas again. At some point you are better off with them just dying and buying more tankbustas for the points you spent on badrukk ( he costs 1 point less than 5 tank bustas, so I could just bring 2 squads of tank bustas.)
Don't forget badrukk is also ld8 making those 5 boy bustas squads in a trukk resilient to break tests. And flashiest git buff isn't a waste since it also works on badrukk....
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is no measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
Seems to me that he is really only worth it if you want him to accompany 20+ flash gitz instead of bringing ammo runts. Which to me is a "don't bring him"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Don't forget badrukk is also ld8 making those 5 boy bustas squads in a trukk resilient to break tests.
Nob with them is LD 7. So you are paying a ton of points for lowering their morale casualties by 1.
Breng77 wrote: Seems to me that he is really only worth it if you want him to accompany 20+ flash gitz instead of bringing ammo runts. Which to me is a "don't bring him"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Don't forget badrukk is also ld8 making those 5 boy bustas squads in a trukk resilient to break tests.
Nob with them is LD 7. So you are paying a ton of points for lowering their morale casualties by 1.
He is overpriced for a glorified plasma gun in rapid fire range with rerolls I agree with you but he is resilient. I wasn't suggesting to take him for leadership purposes just that he also offers that.
Like I said his ability would be better if it was reroll to wound rolls of 1.
Played a small Power Level 50 game on Saturday (forgive me if Power Level discussion isn't considered appropriate in here, it's just what we were using on release day). I played against a Tyranids list, which was interesting because I actually had more shooty units.
Slugga Boyz hit hard. I was surprised that even after his Hormagants charged and killed a lot of models the Boyz were still able to hit back even harder.
My big mob of 30 Boyz was split evenly between Slugga and Choppa and Shoota. I think that when it comes to big mobs having a mix of both has potential, but I might stop doing it. The main reason being it takes longer to count up the number of attacks when what each boy is armed with matters, and I don't want to slow the game down.
Grots did their job protecting my Big Gunz. A big unit of them can pretty much completely surround anything.
My Big Gunz were disappointing, but I think it was a combination of bad dice rolls and Venonthrope protection, so I haven't written them off yet.
Bomb Squigs are really nice because they are still effective against monsters. Tankbustas aren't exactly ineffective against big mosnters, but they spend most of their time missing.
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
No. If you look up the Transport rules in the BRB, embarked units abilities don't work unless the ability specifically says so.
Advantages Nobz have over boyz: +1S, +1W, +1A, Sv4+; the other advantage is access to various weapon choices
My understanding is that Nobz with Power Stabbas seems to be the most efficient loadout for them, turning them into 20ppm - but, a Power Stabba is a Burna that can't overwatch for d3 auto hits (but is S5 in melee). That said, Nobz get access to free Shootas; so that is extra shooting/overwatch at 18" as opposed to 8".
Which then begs the question, is +1S, +1W, +1A, and Sv4+ worth paying 43%ppm over Burna Boyz (20ppm vs 14ppm); which I think it probably is.
Compared to a normal boy, Nobz seem very expensive for what they bring; but what they're paying for is the access to special weaponry (which makes them cost even more); but compared to a burna boy, they seem to be decent - that said, Burna Boyz feel overpriced to begin with, but that's a different issue.
And then I wonder about Nob Bikers vs Boy Bikers; 42ppm vs 27ppm - 15 extra points for +1S, +1W, +1A, but no increased armor save; just the ability to access special weapons.
I guess I'm just not sold on Nobz yet; they pay a lot to be special weapon delivery systems, but I wonder if in a general sense (moreso Nob Bikers), you're better off just bringing more Boyz/Bikers for the price instead - you get extra attacks (doubly so for Biker's x2 Dakka Guns), extra wounds; is that enough to offset the 3+ on MEQ (4+ instead of 5+ for T5 targets)?
If you equip them all with Big Choppas it seems they can go monster hunting pretty effectively; but that gets pricey quick - and you haven't even paid for the transports yet.
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
No. If you look up the Transport rules in the BRB, embarked units abilities don't work unless the ability specifically says so.
And this is ONE of the arguements used against me in my shop when I try to use the mobile fortress rule for the embarked passengers.
fe40k wrote: If you equip them all with Big Choppas it seems they can go monster hunting pretty effectively; but that gets pricey quick - and you haven't even paid for the transports yet.
Maybe when it comes to Trukks is when Nobz become more valuable? A big unit of boyz on foot is pretty awesome, but you can only fit so many in a Trukk and those things aren't cheap.
A small unit of Nobz might also be a decent screening unit that rides around in a Battle Wagon with a shooty unit, but can jump and charge things that deep strike/outflank/whatever.
It might also be easier to fit a bunch of Nobz under a KFF, and other area buffs might be able to be stacked in interesting ways.
Do you folks think it would be good to have a unit of Flashgitz and a unit of Tankbustas in the same Battle Wagon, or would it probably be best to go with one big unit of one or the other?
Quick math for above post; short version - if Burna Boyz are in range to get 1 Burna shot off before charging, they output slightly less unsaved wounds than Nobz (but can exceed them if they get 2/3 shots off); but the moment they get Overwatched on the way in, they start to lose out, real quick.
davou wrote: Boys are cheaper, but nobs are what let us reliably crack big tanky things.
Boys for generalized work. Nobs have extra s and a baked in, and can further up the ante by selecting BC and PK when they need too.
I know MANZ are expensive and most people consider them underwhelming.. but this is where they sign I think. Maybe I am off base but that 4+ save turns to goo when they hit a "monstrous creature" (big nid gribbly) or some sort of vehicles that is assault oriented. 2+ saves on a 3 wound model is pretty damn good when, now, that its not all or nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even though I may still build a battlewagon ( have so many scrap and parts of lemun russ lying around) SOLEY for a squad of burna boyz (that will be modeled as being on fire as i'm deploying it because.. orks with fire) They probably wont see the tabletop until the burna is made better or the points of a burna boy aren't laughably high.
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
No. If you look up the Transport rules in the BRB, embarked units abilities don't work unless the ability specifically says so.
And this is ONE of the arguements used against me in my shop when I try to use the mobile fortress rule for the embarked passengers.
Mobile Fortress however is covered by the Battlewagon's other rule, Open-Topped : which specifically states that any restrictions or modifiers which apply to the Battlewagon also apply to the passengers.
Ergo; "A Battlewagon ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons" clearly applies to the squad as well, thanks to Open-Topped.
Tell those weedy gits at your store to get choppa'd.
Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
No. If you look up the Transport rules in the BRB, embarked units abilities don't work unless the ability specifically says so.
And this is ONE of the arguements used against me in my shop when I try to use the mobile fortress rule for the embarked passengers.
Mobile Fortress however is covered by the Battlewagon's other rule, Open-Topped : which specifically states that any restrictions or modifiers which apply to the Battlewagon also apply to the passengers.
Ergo; "A Battlewagon ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons" clearly applies to the squad as well, thanks to Open-Topped.
Tell those weedy gits at your store to get choppa'd.
I tried. The manager sided with the mob and so it is "officially" played that way in my store.
Question do AoE buffs thst target other units still work for the character who is embarked on a transport? There is measurement needed as the model is always in range of itself? For instance a painboy in a trukk is always in range for doc tools...
No. If you look up the Transport rules in the BRB, embarked units abilities don't work unless the ability specifically says so.
And this is ONE of the arguements used against me in my shop when I try to use the mobile fortress rule for the embarked passengers.
Mobile Fortress however is covered by the Battlewagon's other rule, Open-Topped : which specifically states that any restrictions or modifiers which apply to the Battlewagon also apply to the passengers.
Ergo; "A Battlewagon ignores the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons" clearly applies to the squad as well, thanks to Open-Topped.
Tell those weedy gits at your store to get choppa'd.
I tried. The manager sided with the mob and so it is "officially" played that way in my store.
So what you're saying is we need to get a bigger mob of our own Ork boyz in this store, and then the manager will change his ruling, since he's a weedy grot who sides with whoever has the most boyz. If there's one thing Orks does better then everyone else, it's mobbing up. :WAAAGH:
GreatGranpapy wrote: Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?
Do you want the big mek with kff to be in mega armor? If not then just put the KFF bits on a spare nob body, add one of those wrench banner pole gubbins and boom you are good to go. If you DO want the kff mek to be in mega armor, I would still build the MAN and convert a nob to have a bunch of welded plates all over his boddy with a KFF. The mek just had a bunch of his gits and oilers weld plates together until he could barely waddle
GreatGranpapy wrote: Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?
They're pretty expensive, but they might be good paired with a Banner Nob to mitigate the -1 to attack, and maybe a Weirdboy to give them an extra attack?
I was thinking about running my Meganobz in groups of four with double Killsaws in a Battlewagon with a Banner Nob and a Slugga Boy unit. The Slugga Boyz are there to eat any 1s if the Wagon gets destroyed, to help protect the Banner Nob from getting sniped and for the simple reason that I don't want to put too many expensive units in a single vehicle. The Banner Nob is to help with all the Killsaw and Power Klaw attacks. Not sure what to do with the leftover space. Maybe a Weirdboy, a Painboy or a Warboss, but maybe just another Slugga Boy to keep things from getting too expensive.
I brought a unit sort of like the above to the release day event at my FLGS, but didn't get a chance to try it out.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?
take 5 and make one ghazkull add a waagh banner and a trukk.
Turn 1 move your trukk forward and fire out of the trukk w ur unit, turn 2 disembark forward 3in, move 4in, waagh and advance d6, then charge 2d6 and reroll either 1 or both charge dice to make your target.
If you do mega nobs go all in, Meganobs are fine in a trukk because it moves them in range and allows them to disembark forward 3in or the trukk can charge and they can disembark and charge the next turn. They just aren't the beatstick they were without support. However 4 meganobs with 2 killsaws w ghaz and a waaagh banner are brutal. They hit on a 3+ w banner and are 5 atks each at str 10 ap -4 dam2 w ghaz at 7 atks (warlord trait) str 12 ap-3 d3 dam. Not counting waagh banner nob. There is almost nothing that unit can't kill.
Meganobs are ok feel free to use them. Just support them and the killsaw varient is extremely good, in fact I don't know why you'd take a kustom shoota. The second saw is only +10pts and gives you an extra brutal atk. You can even go cheap and take a warboss in mega and 4 killsaw megas. I would say the warboss waagh is important though.
Advice when building mega nobs. The new models you don't need to glue the weapons they are pushfit and you can switch them as needed. The big Mek you can magnetize the kff with 2 small magnets.
Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.
gungo wrote: Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.
Its only 6 more points for the second saw. U dont pay for the kustom shoota.
The weirdboy counts as an "ork" and therefore would only ever need 9 orks within 10" to get +1 to psychic power manifesting..correct? An aoe buff..the character is always in range of himself.
It's interesting they gave a plethora of buffs to choose from, based on character selection. Warboss for speed, waaaggh! Banner for accuracy, ghazzy/weirdboy for power, kff big Mek/painboy for durability (both of those has a unique mechanic they provide that buff with tradeoffs to each).
gungo wrote: Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.
Ghaz is a warboss though and is only slightly more expensive than 3 Killsaw MANz, while being just as killy.
Thrakka:
7 Attacks hitting on 2+ is 5.83 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 4.86 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 3.88 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
3 Killsaw MANz 12 Attacks hitting on 4+ is 6 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 6 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 5 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
So when hitting vehicles, characters or monsters, Thrakka already wins due to dealing more damage per hit. Two more strength only matter when hitting T6, so let's ignore that for now.
In terms of durability, Ghaz has two more toughness than MANz, a 4++ save and cannot be shot as long as he is not the closest model, but has one less wound.
He is faster than MANz, takes up less transport space, buff units near him and reduces morale casualties to d3 rather than preventing every sixth one.
That's a fat package you get for just 26 points extra.
So MANz are basically best for killing elite units with no more than two wounds, which would be stuff like terminators, nobz, berzerkers and the like. None of that seems to be giving boyz trouble from what I read so far though...
GreatGranpapy wrote: Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?
The problem with meganobz isn't their hitting on 4s as they were hitting on 4s even in 7th edition unless you run the formation, they have one lesser attack but they can strike first if they charge. Their issue is the change from AV to T and W because with their S8-9 AP2 they were amazing against vehicles and multiwounds T4 models. Now that istant death is gone and vehicles have a lot of wounds they aren't as effective as before. They became tougher though, +1W, an armor that is unlikely to be completely bypassed and no more istant death even for them. Transports are also quite expensive now, which is another reason why meganobz are not as effective than before.
They have their usage though, they're not useless. But I consider them basically a tarpit unit now as 5-6 pks are not going to kill a 8-10 wounds model automatically. I see them viable only in a transport with another unit, 3 of them in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig or 3-5 in a wagon with bustas or boyz, maybe with a waaagh banner nob.
gungo wrote: Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.
Ghaz is a warboss though and is only slightly more expensive than 3 Killsaw MANz, while being just as killy.
Thrakka:
7 Attacks hitting on 2+ is 5.83 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 4.86 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 3.88 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
3 Killsaw MANz 12 Attacks hitting on 4+ is 6 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 6 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 5 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
So when hitting vehicles, characters or monsters, Thrakka already wins due to dealing more damage per hit. Two more strength only matter when hitting T6, so let's ignore that for now.
In terms of durability, Ghaz has two more toughness than MANz, a 4++ save and cannot be shot as long as he is not the closest model, but has one less wound.
He is faster than MANz, takes up less transport space, buff units near him and reduces morale casualties to d3 rather than preventing every sixth one.
That's a fat package you get for just 26 points extra.
So MANz are basically best for killing elite units with no more than two wounds, which would be stuff like terminators, nobz, berzerkers and the like. None of that seems to be giving boyz trouble from what I read so far though...
However even with your Numbers above killsaw manz can still be improved by the edition of a waagh banner or benefiting from ghaz additional atk. Ghaz is either already at 2+ or you added his effect to him. I'm not saying ghaz isn't good. I was just saying he isn't needed for killsaw manz to be effective. 63pts is ok for 4x str10 -4ap 2dam atks. (Significantly better then the 54pts for a Pk/shoota man). But they honestly do shine when a waagh banner or additional hits (ghaz/warpath) are added to them. I think killsaw manz get a bad rap and can be fairly effective if supported.
If you compare a klaw + kshoota meganob from 7 and 8, even a regular meganob (not a formation one) killed 1.67 marine on a charge. Now he kills 1.04 marine. And costs 54 pts instead of 40. Means that Kiliness per point dropped from 0.0417 to 0.0193. That's a 116% drop. It's even worse vs vehicles. Much worse.
Anyway. Let's take double killsaw meganobs. Their killiness per point vs meq is 0.026. If you take 1 killsaw and a k-shoota, the kiliness vs meq goes a tiny bit down (if you include k-shoota fire) to 0.025.
K-skorcha + Killsaw Meganob'z killiness per poin vs MEQ - 0.034
If you compare them to bigchoppa nobz - those kill 0.67 meq. But they're much cheaper and also have 0.025 killiness per point and shootas bring them slightly ahead of both meganob types. If you take stabba nobz, their killiness per point vs meq is 0.067 + 0.005 from shooting. Which is more than 2.5 times better than meganobz have.
Now let's compare the effectiveness of meganobz vs a rhino and a knight to what regular nobz can do.
Killiness per point of double killsaw manz vs rhino or knight - 0.042
Killiness per point of k-skorcha+killsaw man vs rhino or knight - 0.045
Killiness per point of bigchoppa nobz vs rhino - 0.038
Killiness per point of bigchoppa nobz vs knight - 0.025
Killiness per point of power stabba nobz vs rhino or knight - 0.022
So, we can see that bigchoppa nobz are almost as good vs t7 3+ as double killsaw meganobz. Significantly worse vs knights and comparable vs meq. Stabba nobz are 2.5 times better vs meq than killsaw meganobz and almost 2 times worse vs vehicles.
So, killsaw meganobz might seem as a good solution vs knight. However when a knight strikes back, he deals way more damage to meganobz than to regular nobz point-per-point. So, what's exactly the purpose of meganobz now?
I think the best way to run manz is to get a killsaw and a kombi-skorcha. And to run them in min squads. They can be relatively shooty, somewhat choppy. They cost a ton of points and are not that durable for points but they can concentrate some force in a small area and charge something eating overwatch. I'd definitely not spam them. K-skorcha manz are the killiest per-point of all the manz - even vs tough vehicles. But they're very fragile. 72 pts is a stiff price to pay for a single model. And you start to wonder if a megaboss is better than manz.
i played a game of 8th last night vs 'nid, 2k points (2004 to be precise), spoils of war, search and destroy deployment.
My list had:
hq 2 warbosses with big choppa
1 big mek in a bike with kff troops
2 units of 18 boyz+ nobz with big choppa
elites
2 units of 10 tankbusta with a bomb squig
fast attack
1 warbuggie
3 single units of deffkopta with big shoota
heavy support
2 bw with 'ard case and deff rolla
3 units of 2 killa kans all with grootzuka
dedicated transport
2 trukks (for the tankbustas)
I'm not going into details but the tankbusta did the heavy lifting, killed 2 harpies in 2 turns and wounded an exocrine to half his health.
A squad of boyz with a warboss killed a squad of genestealer and the broodlord. In the following turn they were blown to pieces by some shooting leaving the warboss alone.
The other squad of boyz+warboss locked in cc 2 exocrines and a squad of warriors, they killed half the warrior but didn't do a lot of wounds on the exocrines, i was satisfied because the exocrine would have easily blown to pieces the trukks or the kans.
The grootzukas were a poor choice, i wanted to try it but skoorca or big shootas would have been a better choice, the skoorca would have handled the horde of termagant and the big shootas better range would have let me target valuable units.
The deff rolla didn't do gak but i rolled poorly.
We weren't able to finish the game and we ruled it a tie, he had more objective points but i had more units point wise on the table.
At the end of the day, the deffkopta were fundamental to grab isolated objectives but didn't do a lot more.
The boyz are too frail, if the enemy can shoot them they will die, fast.
The tankbusta were superb, my friend underestimates their firepower and didn't target the trukks until it was too late. Next time they will be his primary target so i have to find a better way to protect them.
Kff saved some wounds and was better that i expected.
most valuable play was me seizing the initiative with a lucky 6 .
JimOnMars wrote: I really only like the 6 point boss nobs. Same access to weapons, and can use wound allocation to boyz instead of 4+ armor.
1 nob with 9 boys is probably worth more than 4 nobs and costs less.
Since you have to buy everything separately, don't you need to pay 17 points (plus wargear) instead of 6 for the Nob that accompanies a squad of Boyz?
That is for Nobz.. as in a unit of nobz. "Boss Nob" is a unit upgrade. and its free. it says in the index "replaces on ork boy" so just pay the 6 points for the ork boy you want him to replace, and any wargear (powerklaw, big choppa, kustom shoota..etc Although I just roll with PK and the basic shoota cause its free) and you are good to go!
wtwlf123 wrote: Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?
Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...
So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?
I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points
Bardiel_03 wrote: i played a game of 8th last night vs 'nid, 2k points (2004 to be precise), spoils of war, search and destroy deployment.
My list had:
hq 2 warbosses with big choppa
1 big mek in a bike with kff troops
2 units of 18 boyz+ nobz with big choppa
elites
2 units of 10 tankbusta with a bomb squig
fast attack
1 warbuggie
3 single units of deffkopta with big shoota
heavy support
2 bw with 'ard case and deff rolla
3 units of 2 killa kans all with grootzuka
dedicated transport
2 trukks (for the tankbustas)
I'm not going into details but the tankbusta did the heavy lifting, killed 2 harpies in 2 turns and wounded an exocrine to half his health.
A squad of boyz with a warboss killed a squad of genestealer and the broodlord. In the following turn they were blown to pieces by some shooting leaving the warboss alone.
The other squad of boyz+warboss locked in cc 2 exocrines and a squad of warriors, they killed half the warrior but didn't do a lot of wounds on the exocrines, i was satisfied because the exocrine would have easily blown to pieces the trukks or the kans.
The grootzukas were a poor choice, i wanted to try it but skoorca or big shootas would have been a better choice, the skoorca would have handled the horde of termagant and the big shootas better range would have let me target valuable units.
The deff rolla didn't do gak but i rolled poorly.
We weren't able to finish the game and we ruled it a tie, he had more objective points but i had more units point wise on the table.
At the end of the day, the deffkopta were fundamental to grab isolated objectives but didn't do a lot more.
The boyz are too frail, if the enemy can shoot them they will die, fast.
The tankbusta were superb, my friend underestimates their firepower and didn't target the trukks until it was too late. Next time they will be his primary target so i have to find a better way to protect them.
Kff saved some wounds and was better that i expected.
most valuable play was me seizing the initiative with a lucky 6 .
Hi, I like your list, it's not extremely different from what I like to play myself, I also play 2 BWs full of boyz (actually 3), the biker mek with KFF, the full bustas trukk and a couple single koptas. Just a few suggestions: Kans are awful, they've always been awful and unless you run a full dread mob army ditch them. Add the second bomb squig in both unit of tankbustas, only 10 points but they can change the game. Try ghaz with the boyz, it's a bit expensive but definitely worth it. KMKs are way better in causing damage than killa kans. Also min units of kommandos are only cost 45 points, and along with the koptas they can harass the opponent quite well. Deffrollas are awesome, unfortunately I have all wagons modeled without them but if you can use them, keep going doing so. The skorcha buggy is interesting and I'd like to try it.
wtwlf123 wrote: Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?
Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...
So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?
I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points
You dont need to give up a rokkit. The nob is automatically equipped with a rokkit launcha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kans are awful, they've always been awful
back in my day Kans were tits. I would run 9-15 of them with a big mek and KFF shielding my HORDE of boyz. it was called the kan wall. Now get off my lawn.
wtwlf123 wrote: Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?
Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...
So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?
I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points
You dont need to give up a rokkit. The nob is automatically equipped with a rokkit launcha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kans are awful, they've always been awful
back in my day Kans were tits. I would run 9-15 of them with a big mek and KFF shielding my HORDE of boyz. it was called the kan wall. Now get off my lawn.
You are right I missed that.
As for Kans I think they are pretty good now. They shoot very well, are not too expensive and are pretty durable. They work well in any army where you have a bunch of vehicles. They tend to struggle if you don't have a lot of other vehicles.
The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.
I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.
Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?
Nithaniel wrote: The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.
I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.
Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?
Are you forced to move full distance when you charge?
There is absolutely nothing against placing a warboss, mekadread or any other model within the footprint of boys as long as each model is within coherency with another model from the squad. In fact this is a legit tactic called bubble wrapping.
Nithaniel wrote: The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.
I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.
Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?
Are you forced to move full distance when you charge?
No you move up to your charge distance, and the only requirement is that the first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model.
Just as a side note, from my experience so far I would say that you never want to "base contact" an enemy with your charge move. Doing so prevents those models from piling in because they cannot end their move closer to the enemy, so you want to be a little bit away so that you can use your pile in move to both make room for additional models, and to trap enemy units in combat.
Breng, or anyone else.
Could you give an example of carrying out a charge like that. I think I get what your saying, but if you could give an example it would really help me out.
So roll charge range, charge 1 dude to the within 1inch. Then move the rest up, but not b2b, so that during your pile in you can ensure you get as many models as possible within combat range?
Solar Shock wrote: Breng, or anyone else.
Could you give an example of carrying out a charge like that. I think I get what your saying, but if you could give an example it would really help me out.
So roll charge range, charge 1 dude to the within 1inch. Then move the rest up, but not b2b, so that during your pile in you can ensure you get as many models as possible within combat range?
I agree, i'm not understanding how to do this effectively. The other problem I had was when charging an enemy squad that was in a wide line I wasn't able to get all my boyz within 1" of an engaged model. (Similar problems to 7th)
The thing with charges and pile ins is that you must end your move closer to the nearest enemy model. So, if you're not in basу contact, you can move all the way around the enemy and end the move 0.0000000000000000000001 closer. But if you're in b2b you can't move the model.
Nithaniel wrote: I think I get it. Get the first model within 1" of the enemy then position everyone else to benefit from the pile in.
Basically. Here's a (bad) example diagram. Assuming units are 6" apart and you rolled a 8 for charge. Pile-in gives you an extra 3" so boyz in the front go around the side so that boyz in the back can make it in.
As you can see from my bad diagrams I was able to use the pile in move to move some models out of the way so others could get close (more important with more models like 30 boyz), further I was able to wrap around the right most model, which means unless that model dies my opponent cannot fall back (unless they can fly. If those closest models were in base they would be unable to make moves like this. Now if your charge move is enough to position optimally then you may as well, but more often than not it won't be.
I see, Thank you for the claification, the paint tutorials were spot on
So the summary is;
Take the first model charging to within 1" to make the charge a success
Assess whether your furthest back models are going to need to engage the closest enemy models in order to get to attack
If so, use the front line models to charge towards the sides and back models, but do not make b2b
Charge back models towards closest enemy models that the front lines have gone around
Use pile in to maximise orks within 1" of an engaged model
CRUMP DEM SKULLZ
Also as mentioned, if you can get around a single straggling model you can prevent the whole unit falling back. Or does only that model not to get to fall back and insta-dies?
Solar Shock wrote: I see, Thank you for the claification, the paint tutorials were spot on
So the summary is;
Take the first model charging to within 1" to make the charge a success
Assess whether your furthest back models are going to need to engage the closest enemy models in order to get to attack
If so, use the front line models to charge towards the sides and back models, but do not make b2b
Charge back models towards closest enemy models that the front lines have gone around
Use pile in to maximise orks within 1" of an engaged model
CRUMP DEM SKULLZ
Also as mentioned, if you can get around a single straggling model you can prevent the whole unit falling back. Or does only that model not to get to fall back and insta-dies?
The unit cannot fall back, fall back states that the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units, moving states you cannot move through enemy models. So the unit is stuck.
The other important consideration is where your buff auras are, exposing your characters etc. You may want to trail models to get a +1 to hit from a banner nob, or a pain boy save etc. You also may want to keep those models covered against enemy shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now it is likely your opponent will pull trapped models, but if he is close you can also do this on your consolidation move at the end of combat, so that will keep him from leaving unless he his positioning is very careful, or he dies his way out of combat.
I played a game last night against another ork player. I tried a kan wall against speed freaks, my observations are pretty much:
boys, shoota or slugga, they got better. anything they charge just goes away. Most CC attack rolls: 52
Lootas are the same. still great at shooting and can add wounds to anything. Not nearly enough to take down the bigger vehicles, but they do add up. the lose of cover saves really hurt though.
koptas, much better, one of our better anti vehicle units. running a group of 3 will slowly but surely take down vehicles.
the big mek, I learned we can take a SAG and a KFF, which sounded so orky I had to try it, neither really earned their points and the SAG was so disappointing. to much randomness and the BS5 just makes it worse. I used every shot against his wagon, only wounded it once and only caused 3 damage.
Kans are solid again, the WS5 is harsh for CC, but more rokkits on a durable unit is helpful.
my opponent brought a wagon, loaded with guns and 10 lootas and 10 flash gits. the cause of so much death and destruction and my loss. I highly recommend it.
I had the first turn and took out his bikers with my lootas before they could move so we never saw them in action.
trukks & boys still a good choice. they performed as expected.
dakkajet, flying into the back lines of orks is fine, but against armies that can shoot, probably won't live nearly as long. especially since I wounded it with sluggas good for a laugh, not much else.
Use of command points
rerolling the lootas # of shots. brought a 1 up to a 3, so worth it.
rerolling the flash gits, he forgot a roll or two towards the end of the game, but if you can get them a second shot it's worth the chance.
daisy chaining a mob of 30 boys to make sure the lootas had a LD 30, saved more boys & lootas than the KFF did.
things that were really unclear to me, is the big mek & grot oiler a unit? when you go to shoot at the pair the grot counts as a character, so if you maneuver right you can make sure the mek is the closest of the two and all wounds go to the mek.
Hi, I like your list, it's not extremely different from what I like to play myself, I also play 2 BWs full of boyz (actually 3), the biker mek with KFF, the full bustas trukk and a couple single koptas. Just a few suggestions: Kans are awful, they've always been awful and unless you run a full dread mob army ditch them. Add the second bomb squig in both unit of tankbustas, only 10 points but they can change the game. Try ghaz with the boyz, it's a bit expensive but definitely worth it. KMKs are way better in causing damage than killa kans. Also min units of kommandos are only cost 45 points, and along with the koptas they can harass the opponent quite well. Deffrollas are awesome, unfortunately I have all wagons modeled without them but if you can use them, keep going doing so. The skorcha buggy is interesting and I'd like to try it.
Thanks for the suggestions. I have to say that this edition I feel a little bit lost, I was used on fielding a lot of bikes (that now are too pricey and stoormboyz with zagstruk are just better) and heavy armoured boyz, so I have to experiment a little bit and I have some hopes for the kanz. I will try a different load out (the grootzuka is just bad) and see if they can do anything good. Bomb squigs are fantastic on paper but I try to keep my bustas at the maximum range, too often I finished my games without using the squigs because I was never in range. The artillery seems a little bit too frail to me but the main problem is I only have one model of it. Kommandos are something I'm eager to try they seems fantastic for their price. Ghaz is my next list for sure .
The buggy didn't do a lot but it was my fault, i deployed it from reserve too soon, i have to be more patient with those kind of thing.
Just to clarify something, each model can only pile in in this move would bring them closer to the nearest enemy model. So you can only use this "not in b2b, so I can pile in" if you can end your pile in closer then you were to the nearest model.
I do this A LOT in sigmar. It works best against large based models or units with few models in the unit. But when your charging a large blob of small tyranid gribblies (for example) this wouldnt work. you wont be able to wrap around the unit and end your move closer to the model right in front of you. Thats why it is important to move your charge distance with the edges of your boyz blobs first. Let them try to get all the way to the outside and allow everything else in the middle to fill up the gaps.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Just to clarify something, each model can only pile in in this move would bring them closer to the nearest enemy model. So you can only use this "not in b2b, so I can pile in" if you can end your pile in closer then you were to the nearest model.
I do this A LOT in sigmar. It works best against large based models or units with few models in the unit. But when your charging a large blob of small tyranid gribblies (for example) this wouldnt work. you wont be able to wrap around the unit and end your move closer to the model right in front of you. Thats why it is important to move your charge distance with the edges of your boyz blobs first. Let them try to get all the way to the outside and allow everything else in the middle to fill up the gaps.
That is true, it works better against models that are not all bunched up because you can move around single models, but not multiples.
Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
Weazel wrote: Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
I 100% agree. Like multiple warbosses? as in like a demorkracy? LOL it is odd to think there would be more then one warboss. So I think to fluff this up a bit, I either take the warboss on warbike (who is HUGE) or my mega armor warboss (who is HUGE) and he is the 'uge boss' and the other basic warbosses that babysit the mob are his little bitch bosses that do his dirty work.. like keepin da boyz in line, while he goes off and krumps whatever he feels like.
Weazel wrote: Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
I 100% agree. Like multiple warbosses? as in like a demorkracy? LOL it is odd to think there would be more then one warboss. So I think to fluff this up a bit, I either take the warboss on warbike (who is HUGE) or my mega armor warboss (who is HUGE) and he is the 'uge boss' and the other basic warbosses that babysit the mob are his little bitch bosses that do his dirty work.. like keepin da boyz in line, while he goes off and krumps whatever he feels like.
Just 'cause you da boss - doesn't mean you're above a little delegation. I don't usually run multiple Warbosses, but when I do it's usually with this fluff in mind, one boss is geared up and 'in charge' as the Warlord, the other guy is just his beefiest enforcer.
I can't wait for the Forgeworld book to come out, although I have a feeling some of the stuff I have or wanted to build is gone. The Meka-Dread seems like a good companion for Killa Kanz.
Weazel wrote: Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
I 100% agree. Like multiple warbosses? as in like a demorkracy? LOL it is odd to think there would be more then one warboss. So I think to fluff this up a bit, I either take the warboss on warbike (who is HUGE) or my mega armor warboss (who is HUGE) and he is the 'uge boss' and the other basic warbosses that babysit the mob are his little bitch bosses that do his dirty work.. like keepin da boyz in line, while he goes off and krumps whatever he feels like.
They had something like that in 3rd Edition before the real Ork codex came out, but they scrapped it.
I think it would be cool to get two units. One would be something like "Bully Boyz" and it would be a unit of 1-3 models that were in between a Nob and a Warboss. Another would actually be an HQ choice that's one step up from a Warboss. In the fluff it's not that unusual to read about orks that are basically the size of dreadnoughts (and they're not even the biggest, baddest orks in the books).
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I can't wait for the Forgeworld book to come out, although I have a feeling some of the stuff I have or wanted to build is gone. The Meka-Dread seems like a good companion for Killa Kanz.
Weazel wrote: Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
I 100% agree. Like multiple warbosses? as in like a demorkracy? LOL it is odd to think there would be more then one warboss. So I think to fluff this up a bit, I either take the warboss on warbike (who is HUGE) or my mega armor warboss (who is HUGE) and he is the 'uge boss' and the other basic warbosses that babysit the mob are his little bitch bosses that do his dirty work.. like keepin da boyz in line, while he goes off and krumps whatever he feels like.
They had something like that in 3rd Edition before the real Ork codex came out, but they scrapped it.
I think it would be cool to get two units. One would be something like "Bully Boyz" and it would be a unit of 1-3 models that were in between a Nob and a Warboss. Another would actually be an HQ choice that's one step up from a Warboss. In the fluff it's not that unusual to read about orks that are basically the size of dreadnoughts (and they're not even the biggest, baddest orks in the books).
Demorkcracy! Ha!
Love the username Dakka flakka lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wasn't there a 3rd party super Beefy warboss they was nearly size
Of a naught?
How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
Weazel wrote: Anyone else feel Orks need a middle management HQ choice? Like a Big Nob or something. Not a plain Nob but not a Warboss either. Running two Warbosses just doesn't feel fluffy to me... Also Weirdboy or Big Mek just don't feel Goffy either.
I 100% agree. Like multiple warbosses? as in like a demorkracy? LOL it is odd to think there would be more then one warboss. So I think to fluff this up a bit, I either take the warboss on warbike (who is HUGE) or my mega armor warboss (who is HUGE) and he is the 'uge boss' and the other basic warbosses that babysit the mob are his little bitch bosses that do his dirty work.. like keepin da boyz in line, while he goes off and krumps whatever he feels like.
Well, if it's led by some kind of WAAAGH! Council, I think that makes it a oligorky?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
I think the answer is probably battlewagons filled with tankbustas. I'm concerned this is actually the ork answer to everything.... but I think it works here. Charge the drones, shoot the suits, each wound is a dead crisis suit. Remember when shooting that crisis suits and drones don't benefit from cover. And don't run trukks. Tau's S7 shooting tears through them, go battlewagons instead.
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
I have had the same problem against Tau. I just get out paced by crisis suits and drones and i can't think of any answers since surrounding them in CC does not work.
Kustom movement trays for my horde! 30 slots each. slot is 1/8" deep. Each ork will be under 1/4 taller then normal due to height of the base of the tray. Each spaced about 1/4" apart except for one in the lower left corner (next to the 2 remainders) where I made an error in the distance. Oh well. It will be indistinguishable when the boyz are on them.
Kustom movement trays for my horde! 30 slots each. slot is 1/8" deep. Each ork will be under 1/4 taller then normal due to height of the base of the tray. Each spaced about 1/4" apart except for one in the lower left corner (next to the 2 remainders) where I made an error in the distance. Oh well. It will be indistinguishable when the boyz are on them.
Nice trays! That should make timed tournaments a bit easier for you...
I've only managed to get in one 8th edition game in, and my one 30 man blob of boys got dakka'd to death pretty quickly. Thankfully, though, I had a couple of battlewagons that made it to the front lines.
Side note: I think Zap Gunz are a lot better now. I tried out 3 of them in that game, and their constant 3 damage is pretty powerful as well as their -3 AP. They had the honor of providing the killing blows to my enemy's Imperial Knight, and Gulliman (The second time he died). Getting the 3 mortal wounds on a hit when you roll an 11+ on strength is pretty great, too. Will definitely try them out again.
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
I have had the same problem against Tau. I just get out paced by crisis suits and drones and i can't think of any answers since surrounding them in CC does not work.
Crisis suits are about the same price as a weirdboy. You could always try smite spam. Maybe stack 5 weirdboyz in a battlewagon and have a smite party.
So, my favorite unit: Lootaz. I always include at least 30 in every list. My favorite tactic of spamming 5 man units behind an ADL and going to ground for a 2+save is over...
With split fire for everyone and no more blast fears, are we still going MSU, or should I bring bigger 10-15 sized units and give them a command point reroll for their d3 shots?
And with Cover saves being a joke for Orks now, what are our deployment options. I still like the high ground for LOS.
Not sure if this has been covered in the thread and I honestly havent looked through every page.
Just coming back to Warhammer in this 8th edition and essentially have no army at this point (except for Voldus and 10 PAGK). Still trying to decide if I want to paint up GK or switch to something like Orks.
That being said how do Nobz look this edition? I have always liked the idea of an Ork clan that is unusually large compared to other clans.
Was thinking of making an entire army of converted Orruk brutes.
Just not sure if Nobz in Battlewagons would even be a viable option.
TheMostWize wrote: Not sure if this has been covered in the thread and I honestly havent looked through every page.
Just coming back to Warhammer in this 8th edition and essentially have no army at this point (except for Voldus and 10 PAGK). Still trying to decide if I want to paint up GK or switch to something like Orks.
That being said how do Nobz look this edition? I have always liked the idea of an Ork clan that is unusually large compared to other clans.
Was thinking of making an entire army of converted Orruk brutes.
Just not sure if Nobz in Battlewagons would even be a viable option.
Normal nobz got a big boost, with ablative wounds via ammo runts soaking up enemy fire and vehicle explosions. They also have access to cheap power stabbas which make normal Nobz squadz very versatile against all types of units through their access to big choppas and killsaws/power klaws.
I'm not sure if an entire army of Nobz would work but having a sizable one or two squads are certainly viable if backed up by a WAAAGH! Banner and either Stormboyz or normal Boyz squads to back them up. Depending on whether or not you're playing with power levels or normal points, they can be absolutely brutal with all of them being decked out with kombi-skorchas. I had a unit of them take a charge from a unit of chaos terminators and the resulting overwatch melted half of the terminator unit (10 wounds!).
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
I have had the same problem against Tau. I just get out paced by crisis suits and drones and i can't think of any answers since surrounding them in CC does not work.
storm boys w zagstrukk are just as fast and can assault flyers.
Deffkopta are even faster and thier bombs are brutal to stealth suits or crisis suits or any suits.
Pile ins are also a great way to not get hit by overwatch.
Tankbustas are great vs suits but bomb squigs can't hit flyers ☹️ tankbusta bombs are good though.
I think the best way to run manz is to get a killsaw and a kombi-skorcha. And to run them in min squads. They can be relatively shooty, somewhat choppy. They cost a ton of points and are not that durable for points but they can concentrate some force in a small area and charge something eating overwatch. I'd definitely not spam them. K-skorcha manz are the killiest per-point of all the manz - even vs tough vehicles. But they're very fragile. 72 pts is a stiff price to pay for a single model. And you start to wonder if a megaboss is better than manz.
Im starting to think this myself.
I would have less of a problem with MANz if I could take them in units of 3 but 300 pts for a single unit that cant so much without another 75-200pts transport is nuts.
Wondering how Nob bikers are factored into this. Im a bit displeased how much better killsaws are over claws and how bikers and nob bosses cant take them.
Kustom movement trays for my horde! 30 slots each. slot is 1/8" deep. Each ork will be under 1/4 taller then normal due to height of the base of the tray. Each spaced about 1/4" apart except for one in the lower left corner (next to the 2 remainders) where I made an error in the distance. Oh well. It will be indistinguishable when the boyz are on them.
Wow... after all this talk about how 40k might be turned into another Age of Sigmar, it's actually become the new WHFB.
Its just for easy of moving hordes of models. I really think that competitive 40k should adopt a deathclock and movement trays are nothing but a good idea.
wtwlf123 wrote: Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?
Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...
So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?
Just to put this argument to rest:
In the actual book, there is a "Building your Army" section which explicitly says that all squad leaders in the book are the same cost as a normal model of that squad.
I had an idea and was wondering if anyone has done this yet. I love battlerwagons in 8th, super hard to kill and the deffrolla is awesome. I put some Tankbustas in it and they were cool but I got to a point that I charged with them and they are very lack luster in combat now that grenades don't do anything in melee. So I was thinking about this.
1 Battlewagon loaded up with some Tankbustas, Lootas, Manz, a Nob with Banner and a Bik Mek with KFF. I know it is a lot but it would all be one drop so we could maybe go first and you would have everything in there to handle any situation. Need long range shooting, Lootas, check. Short range tank killyness, Tankbustas, check. Got to get out and smash something, Manz, check. Need to keep the BW alive, Big mek giving 5++ to BW and able to repair it, Check.
The idea of being able to put multiple units in the same transport is new and cool.
Also, make sure ya'll don't forget that you can't psychic phase (Smite) stuff out of an open topped transport, it only allows them to make attacks in the shooting phase - the psychic phase is a different phase entirely, and isn't included anywhere in the open topped ruling.
Just FYI, from another thread regarding the Battlewagons/Passengers, and the -1 to hit with heavy weapons while moving:
Yes; it allows the passengers to negate the -1 to-hit while moving penalty, for heavy weapons.
From the Designers Commentary/FAQ:
Q. If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
"Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5..."
The -1 to hit for moving and firing a heavy weapon is a MODIFIER.
Open Topped: "...When they do so, and restrictions or MODIFIERS that apply to this model ALSO APPLY TOIT'S PASSENGERS;..."
Battle Wagon Mobile Fortress: "A Battlewagon ignores the penalty (MODIFIER) for moving and firing heavy weapons."
The only confusion over this is because GW's wording and rules writing team is inconsistent in the terminology it uses, but -
The -1 is a modifier to moving and firing a heavy weapon. Any modifiers that apply to the vehicle apply to it's passengers because of open topped (say, the vehicle moved); however, the Battlewagon is allowed to ignore this penalty - which again, is shared with the passengers, thanks to open-topped. More accurately, it doesn't even apply in the first place (to either the vehicle or passengers), since it was entirely ignored.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, my favorite unit: Lootaz. I always include at least 30 in every list. My favorite tactic of spamming 5 man units behind an ADL and going to ground for a 2+save is over...
With split fire for everyone and no more blast fears, are we still going MSU, or should I bring bigger 10-15 sized units and give them a command point reroll for their d3 shots?
And with Cover saves being a joke for Orks now, what are our deployment options. I still like the high ground for LOS.
MSU is still good but risky because of deployment rules, the more units you have the more likely you will not get first turn. Without first turn you risk the deep strike/alpha strike shenanigans.
The tactic of taking small squads of lootas and tankbustas in Battlewagons mean you can deploy them all as one deployment option added to mobile fortress this will make them far more effective.
Lootas in the backfield run the risk of getting targetted by enemy deep strikers
Is the Battlewagon effected by "-1 to hit, from moving and firing heavy weapons modifier"? No - it's not; because it's entirely ignored.
Thus, there is no penalty to transfer to the passengers.
Open-topped transfers any penalties that are on the vehicle to the unit inside - despite having moved, there are no penalties applied to the Battlewagon, thus there's nothing to transfer.
And what about them boys? For example: you take 2 blobs of 30 with ghazzy, painboy en big mek with KFF in between for the obvious buffs.
I feel it has potential to make around 10 boys shootaboys to have some shooting on the way, they can take the wounds and you'll have the sluggaboys left when arriving in CC, and dealt more wounds (but possible a turn later in CC)
but on the other side, if you go full sluggaboys, the advance is the way to go, and you have possibility (pray to the dicegods) of turn 2 charge.
Or split them up and give them wheels (waaay more expensive and no buffs on the way over)
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
Lots of Zzap guns works wonders against Tau, as they will one-shot crisis-suits and two-shot broadsides. The biggest problem with the Zzap guns and Kannons is to get hold of the models. Consider casting your own, because you will need a lot.
Ghazzkgul in a closed top wagon is also a great bet, as T8 really healps against Tau, and the Kustom-klaw deals af flat 3 damage. The rest of the wagon can be filled with boyz, nobz with a few stabbas, a weirdboy with warpath (and smite) and a painboy would also come in handy.
Tankbustas would be decent, but Tau walkers are not vehicles (even the riptide is classified as a monster) so Tankbustas does not get the reroll against them, and bombsquigs are useless against most things Tau. Another option
is wartrakks with skorchas. Don't deepstrike them, just run them straigt at his gunline drawing fire.
If you take some Kustom Blasta Kannons, you should consider deploying a Big Mek with a shokk attak gun nearby. The Big Mek can help repair the self-inflicted damage of the artillery while at the same time adding his own dakka.
Deffkoptas with bigbomm is also a decent if you take at least 3 or 4 of them. With rokkits they get kind of expensive for a 4 wound model though.
KommissarKiln wrote: How are Orks to deal with Tau? (Sorry if this has been addressed, I skipped a few pages) A couple major issues come to mind...
- Multiple overwatches per charge by Tau is now faction-wide rule for them. Sure, it mentions no further overwatch from the supporting unit that phase, but a Tau gun line will have *lots* of shooty units, Orks will have fewer assault units in order to have any sort of shooting ability, and will surely take casualties if it's not a turn 1 charge. And this is the minor issue compared to...
-The Tau army is like 85% fly. Every single tank, every single battlesuit (except broadsides iirc), and every single drone can fall back from combat and shoot next turn. There's practically no benefit to charging their shootiest, killiest units. IG can be heavily disrupted by charges, I'm sure a decent proportion of Marine, Necron, and even Eldar units have to deal with the penalty of falling back, but when you can build an army with basically 0 troops, how to you deal with an army that spams shooty fly units as an assault army?
Lots of Zzap guns works wonders against Tau, as they will one-shot crisis-suits and two-shot broadsides. The biggest problem with the Zzap guns and Kannons is to get hold of the models. Consider casting your own, because you will need a lot.
Ghazzkgul in a closed top wagon is also a great bet, as T8 really healps against Tau, and the Kustom-klaw deals af flat 3 damage. The rest of the wagon can be filled with boyz, nobz with a few stabbas, a weirdboy with warpath (and smite) and a painboy would also come in handy.
Tankbustas would be decent, but Tau walkers are not vehicles (even the riptide is classified as a monster) so Tankbustas does not get the reroll against them, and bombsquigs are useless against most things Tau. Another option
is wartrakks with skorchas. Don't deepstrike them, just run them straigt at his gunline drawing fire.
If you take some Kustom Blasta Kannons, you should consider deploying a Big Mek with a shokk attak gun nearby. The Big Mek can help repair the self-inflicted damage of the artillery while at the same time adding his own dakka.
Deffkoptas with bigbomm is also a decent if you take at least 3 or 4 of them. With rokkits they get kind of expensive for a 4 wound model though.
Anvil Industry have cheap kannons and zzap guns. I use these two:
I'm still being told that mobile fortress doesnt apply to the passengers for the follwoing reasons:
In this case, the vehicle ignores the modifier but its still applied to the passengers as the passengers don't have the mobile fortress rule... And the rule itself states that it applies to the battlewagon.
and
But the Mobile Fortress rule is not a modifier itself. It is ignoring a negative modifier. The vehicle still suffers the -1 modifier for moving and firing heavy weapons, and then ignores it due to Mobile Fortress. The passengers do not.
Another thought I had was whether a hybrid of speed freaks and green tide would be effective. I'm talking 30 strong units of Stormboyz in place of normal Boyz, large units of Bikers and/or Nob bikers, having your buff characters (Warboss/KFF Mek/Painboy) on bikes, Trukks, Koptas, and Buggies en masse. With so many of these units having 14" move and with a Warboss still nearby permitting the advance, there should be a very good chance of getting numerous charges off on the first turn.
Strategy would be pretty straightforward, just get into combat before the opponent gets much chance to shoot. I'd imagine Trukks and to a lesser extent Koptas/Buggies eat the most overwatch, Stormboy units are large enough to pile in on extra units and dish out lots of attacks, and a large BC Nob bike unit can deal with the tougher enemies. Even other CC armies would probably have a tough time if you can charge most of your units in on the same turn, since only one charge can be overriden by a command point.
Trukks (and other cheap vehicles) have always been the staple of my army. I now see they are damn expensive in 8th. So no more 4-6 units of trukkboys. What are your huys thoughts on this?
And I've not read an opinion on the new buggies yet. Are they any good? (they also look very expensive)
Singleton Mosby wrote: Trukks (and other cheap vehicles) have always been the staple of my army. I now see they are damn expensive in 8th. So no more 4-6 units of trukkboys. What are your huys thoughts on this?
And I've not read an opinion on the new buggies yet. Are they any good? (they also look very expensive)
If your trukk boyz were choppa boyz, then they are worth their cost. They can charge into one unit and slide into another, locking both and eating all the overwatch.
I haven't played a 2000 point game yet but I will take my 7 when I do.
Patrol detachment
Ghaz
Nob with banner
3 manz 1 with saws
Boys x20 pk nob
Trukk with ball
Wagon with rolla x 2
Dakka jet with 6 supa shootas
Spearhead detachment
Weird boy (da jump )
Wagon with rolla
Lootas x9
Lootas x5
Flash gitz x10 + 10 runts
Enemy brought
Brigade detachment 9 + something else +2 for total of 14 CP (all used to re roll number of shots from big cannons)
Creed
Some Psyker
3 leman russes with lots of dakka
3 chimera with 10 vets each (maybe 4)
5-6 vets squads with heavy weapons teams on foot
3 sentinels with flamers
Ork T1 board after ork movement (orks went first, only 5 drops!)
Moved up with most things, gits moved laterally
Nearside flank has gits in a wagon
Middle wagon is full of lootas
Trukk has manz and chars
Far wagon has 20 boys
I manage to down nearside sentinel and 4 wounds on chimera in shooting between jet and gitz
Lootas kill a few infantry in middle of board
IG t1
Shuffles around , hides farside sentinels in Los blocking smoke to stop lootas
Disembarks vets near jet and buffs them +1 armor in psychic
shooting puts 10 wounds on jet (flashlights omg)
9w on boys wagon
1 on trukk
Ork t2
Boys manz ghaz nob and weirboy all disembark and advance various amounts staying within 6 of ghaz/nob. Manz over hill toward central forces and boys/ghaz/nob to flank behind LOS blocking hill. All manage to get just outside 1" away from a chimera, 2 sentinels.
Boys wagon and trukk move For charges on sentinels
Lootas disembark into forest on objective and wagon moves forward 12 and advances 3 I think towards Russ in middle of board gits wheel around a bit to stay on obj but get in range of more targets
Plane modes over his back line in case it explodes
Smite does 2-3 wounds to a russ.
Lootas kill a few infantry shooting on 6s from disembark, few more run from Morale. Other lootas fail to wound russ in center of his forces
Gits kill chimera, 4/10 vets who jumped out last turn, and 5-6 from another squad, 3 More run away from Morale
Jet kills a few infantry
Boys plink a wound off chimera with guns
Ghaz and nob assault chimera, ghaz absorbs overwatxh and I reroll his failed armor saves two dif times. (2/4 CP used)
They both make it, wagon charges one sentinel, trukk the other, wagon takes 2 more wounds on way in. Boys charge chimera with vets inside, and 2 sentinels. Chimera overwatch boys and I pass the one 5+ thanks to cover (clutch as they were exactly 20 strong)
Ghaz kills chimera by himself, it explodes dealing 2 mortal wounds to himself and one to my nob.
Boys wrecked the chimera, and whiffed vs sentinel. Trukk failed charge, wagon made it, fluffed its attacks and was so hurt it needed 4s to wound.
After melee the vets inside both squads were now within 1" of orks who surrounded their vehicle, and were "locked in" as we saw it, and got free swings vs my boys and ghaz/nob in 2 diff examples
Manz in middle make charge vs Russ, do a few wounds but fail to finish it.
Ig turn 2
Shuffles stuff around more, falls back with Russ from manz
Can't shoot anything worthwhile near boys with his Russ as forgot to fall back with sentinels
Banner Nob out alone in front, shot at some but no Los from Russ thank god. He takes 2 wounds but passes them both.
Downs Dakka jet
7 wounds done to loota wagon
Kills 1 man from combined shooting and wounds another once
Swings on ghaz, ghaz kills everyone in squad he attacks. Nob has nothing to swing on
Vets kill 4-5 boys, boys wipe out all vets, and do 2-3 wounds to a distraction-chicken-sentinel-thing and thru consolidation/piling in are able to get within 1" of a Russ preventing it from firing the following turn
Orks t3
Empty Loota wagon charges Russ, flails about as it's barely alive and they don't do anything to one another
Gits kill a ton of infantry, that flank is empty aside from a small squad and some hiddden characters
Lootas finish off most infantry in ruins, final 2 flee.
Solo saw man now outside of ghaz and banner makes charge into Russ, ork takes a wound and then does nothing in return
Boys + pk nob kill Russ
Wagons trukks and sentinels flail at each other, along with 3 boys still stuck in with sentinel.
Ghaz charges a vet squad on ground and kills them all and is unharmed.
Ig concedes as it's getting very late. Game could of gone either way still, but I had a good feeling, plus with my heavy-filled list I was lucky we got big gun mission. I erroneously moved into objectives t1 and didn't get good shooting targets with gits as we erroneously read obj were scored each turn.
All in all my takeaways were:
Gits are strong, did better than my lootas. Ammo runts are huge. Max em out.
Manz need the banner for suuuuure. Not worth points without support structure. Ghaz helps them out a lot as well. A squad of 6 with saws is 24 attacks +6 from
Ghaz then + 6 from warpath if you can get it off. Those 2 buffs provide the equivalent of 12 attacks or 4 more base meganobs with upgrades ... that's 216 points of "free" attacks, s10 ones. Compared to boys.. 20 boys with choppas get 80 base, then +40 from buffs, or the same as 10 boys with choppas for "free"... which is only 60 points of "free" attacks
See where I'm going? More bang for your buck using ghaz and manz potentially on a basis of what you get with those free attacks? Just a thought.
20 boys hitting on 2s was insane. Banner is gold. Ghaz is gold.
Jet was easily shot down now
Ard case is important for dedicated melee units. Big difference from t7 to t8.
Smite spam seems very feasible as well.
A question that arose in game, not sure if we played right. Vehicles can advance? I didn't try advancing and charging with them on same turn as they were too far from ghaz, but I forgot to even check if they were allowed to do it like boys etc
Hopefully this helps someone. Nothing wrong at all with trukks, more resilient for sure. Mine has never ever ever lasted as long as it did last night. In combination with some higher priority targets (wagon with rolla) all speeding together I think you have enough Target saturation to get stuff thru
gungo wrote: Why can't you use the smoke tea lights for vehicle explodes results?
I'm guessing because vehicles no longer stay on the table after they are destroyed.
thats what I was told last night. was a bummer as I planned to use his wrecked chimera for LOS block, but apparently not :x
plus had all dem tea lights to use
House rule that gak. Smoke tea lights are too awesome and cool looking not to use.
On an actual explode result (which is fairly rare)
Place a smoke tea light down which acts as line of site blocking terrain (or cover) but doesn't restrict movement.
You don't want them restricting movement since the way 8th ed works with terrain means they could block all accessible paths for vehicles.
It doesn't say it's only once per game, so I say do it for as many times as you can while the runt is alive. Like 90% of the rules for this edition it's only half written or too vague.
I need help. Harlequin skimmers and bikes are chappin' my arse and chippin' me teef.
They outrun EVERYTHING except for Stormboyz, and all shooting aside from Grots is on a 6+ against them. I'm seriously considering bringing full units of Skorchas to chase them next time I play my friend that plays Harlequins, they're the only thing I can think of that can reliably catch and hit those stupid panzies with their abundance of special rules.
A squad of 3x cheap deffkoptas w bombs.
It moves 20in in your movement and as long as you end your movement 2in over them you can drop a bomb.
That doesn't care about the Mirage rule or any modifier.
and does 5x mortal wounds on a 5+ each per deffkopta to a squad of 5 bikes and doesn't care about invul sv.
3x deffkoptas will average 5 mortal wounds.
Follow this w stormboys
The void weaver and star weaver are vehicles and tankbustas reroll tohit vs them.
Beyond that i don't know I think stormboyz w zagstrukk is our go to anti flyer unit for tau and jetbikes.
There is a flyer that bombs the heck out of infantry w mortal wounds as well I'm just not sold on our flyers as they are expensive and still not durable for the price.
Has anyone got eyes on rules for either the Squiggoths or the Kill Tanks? (I use both in my army).
Considering how normal vehicles have 'melee' stats, I'm expecting the Squiggoths to be beasts and so much more durable than they were in 7th. Can't wait.
I hear alot of people making a case for Deffkoptas because of their bombs, but couldnt a blitzabomba more easily achieve TWO more damaging bomb drops for less points even?
They are cheaper than dakkajets.
Two jets for 268 points, potentially 20 mortal wounds on two turns on a 4+.
Bigdoza wrote: I hear alot of people making a case for Deffkoptas because of their bombs, but couldnt a blitzabomba more easily achieve TWO more damaging bomb drops for less points even?
They are cheaper than dakkajets.
THey have restrictions on their movement, and less utility after the bombs have been dropped.
It's not out till Saturday no ones seen it but reportedly a few people at warhammer world.
I expect squiggoth to be t6 low teens in wounds 3+ svstr 6 a slower trukk w better melee.
Gargantuan to be t7/t8 low 20s wounds 3+ sv str8 a slower battlewagon w better melee.
Both Have transport and some crazy FW bespoke rule
a kill tank to be t8 since baneblade is t8 and stompa t8
and t9+ is like Titan territory. Basically Ork varient of baneblade but w worse bs.
All of the above is conjecture but I don't expect orks to make out from the changes to blast weapons even if we get something crazy like 2d6 hits +d6 more vs10+ models. The reason being is that bs5+ sucks especially with all the -1 hit modifiers. If the gargantuan squiggoth is a more durable and more assaultybut slower battlewagon I expect it to be a better gunwagon for orks if it gets a usable mobile fortess rule.
Zhardsnark kustom stompa buzzgrob and dreads I have high hope for. I'd love if FW made cybork as a unit of 5+ fnp orks would be awesome this edition. But sadly no model.
Bigdoza wrote: I hear alot of people making a case for Deffkoptas because of their bombs, but couldnt a blitzabomba more easily achieve TWO more damaging bomb drops for less points even?
They are cheaper than dakkajets.
THey have restrictions on their movement, and less utility after the bombs have been dropped.
Blitza bomber has issues.
Movement makes it much more difficult to fly over the unit you want.
Price is The same as the 2x deffkopta w twin shoota 69 each
And most monstrous and vehicles you want the bombs to target will only be in units of 1
I see the deffkopta as an elite unit infantry killer. Terminators, centurions, bikes, jetbikes, those mechanicum infantry roboTs. High save, invul high toughness models in units of 3+ models. The deffkopta has a cap of 5x models at 5+ to hit not effected by modifiers.
The blitza has a cap of 10 models 4+ to hit not effected by modifera.
I don't expect to see many units of those high priced models of 10 models.
I find the jets not really durable enough and the blitza back up weapon is just a twin shoota and big shoota.
So your question is if 2 twin shootas w 2 bombs on a more mobile platform worth dropping for 3x shoota, 2x bombs (that can't all be drppped same turn) on a less noble platfor and hits on 4+? I don't think it isbrxause I like the mobility and dropping all my bombs at once. Also infantry can hide in ruins, the jet is a bit more durable but can't really hide or get cover or assault. .
I like the dalkkajet best 18x str6 ap-1 shots at 4+ to hit is our best horde killer outside of boy blobs and even threatens low end monstrous creatures.
JimOnMars wrote: How exactly are you guys ruling ammo runts? The rule says "...every time this unit shoots..."
Does that mean that I get to use the ammo runt twice for kombi-rokkit? Each different weapon is one time that the unit shoots.
To get extreme, what if I split fire every nob onto a different unit? can I use a single ammo runt for all 20 shootings (10 rokkit, 10 shoota)???
I do one re-roll per runt for all shots total. Even though you're resolving Kombi portions and split fire separately I still consider it the unit as a whole making their shooting attack. So if I had 5 runts, only 5 re-rolls.
Bigdoza wrote: I dont see why they need to be high priced models to justify a big bomb drop.
IE : 20 man blob of warriors - Two bombs almost guarantees equal exchange of points with your random kill here and there from other guns as a bonus.
I was thinking of using them to hit devastators in cover asap, their 2+ save and papa smurf buff is real.
It doesn't need to drop on any models. If there is no high price model drop a dakkdajet bomb on any unit of 5+ models.
It's just really efficient vs those high save, high invul, high toughness infantry since its unmodified to hit mortal wounds.
You can kill a squad of TAC marines or necron warriors with pretty much anything boy melee atks, mass shootas, etc. but if I try to kill a bunch of t5, 2+ sv models w boys or shootas it's going to take a while...
The blitza bomber is good too it's just more difficult to fly over ur target unit.
I need help. Harlequin skimmers and bikes are chappin' my arse and chippin' me teef.
They outrun EVERYTHING except for Stormboyz, and all shooting aside from Grots is on a 6+ against them. I'm seriously considering bringing full units of Skorchas to chase them next time I play my friend that plays Harlequins, they're the only thing I can think of that can reliably catch and hit those stupid panzies with their abundance of special rules.
take shoota boys with nobz with combi skorchas. Either trukk borne or walking, or both. Cheaper unit than the harlies they would cook.
Our meta is pretty competitive, so deffkoptas, walkers and flyers are no go cause they're overpriced and never live through an alpha-strike. But regular boyz are another story. They're cheap enough and now have seen an increase in speed. Durability is meh but they at least have a chance to make their points back.
koooaei wrote: Our meta is pretty competitive, so deffkoptas, walkers and flyers are no go cause they're overpriced and never live through an alpha-strike. But regular boyz are another story. They're cheap enough and now have seen an increase in speed. Durability is meh but they at least have a chance to make their points back.
Sounds like your meta has an aversion to terrain that blocks line of sight.
Deffkoptas can start in tactical reserves so that answer is mind boggling.
A dakkajet has 12 wounds, with average math hammer rolls from lascannons (or any str7-11 shot with ap-3 and d6 damage per wound)it should take an average of 6 wounds to go through to get the 4.x number of damaging wounds to take it out(considering damage of 3.5 per each), which needs 12 lascannon or equivalent shots shots to alpha strike it alone.
The -1 to hit is pretty significant, to put that into perspective that is an average of 18 damage to a non hard to hit target from the same 12 shots, or a dead BW, or likely dead gorka/morka-naut. (It would have a 6+ save still if the ap is -3)
If your units listed above are being alpha striked then any vehicle in your meta is worthless- which seems wrong. In those terms a dakka jet being gunned down is underpriced compared to losing a gorkanaut or BW to the exact same attacks.
Deffkoptas are 64 pts each 69 if you want the twin big shoota and small hide able model that moves 20ins w an assault weapons. Its not that overpriced unless you get kopta rokkits (Dont do it). If you are not playing advanced terrain rules they also get cover saves advance rules means they need to be 50% obscured.
I also find our flyers easy to kill. They don't get cover and SO many units can assault flyers now (and flyers are horrible in combat) and everything can hit/wound them. They are also fairly predictable movement wise and flamers can destroy them.
It's pretty overpriced when a plasma scion comsquad costs 64 and kills around 2 koptas emidiately and than you need to test ld. Sure, you can wait till the scions drop to try to outflank but than the basilisks will kill your stuff. And even when you arrive, you don't deal all that much damage with those bigshootas.
My last 2 games were explictly against scion comsuads, conscripts and basilisks. So, i got to have the strongest stuff orks can provide to stand a chance.
I've found that boyz + wierdboyz with a help of stormboyz work vs such tough lists. And boyz can handle sm - even sm gunlines with devastator/razorback spam. The trick is speed and lucky charges. And lots of cheap stuff that's even cheaper than scions.
We'll wait and see how gw changes point costs but so far i'm not seeing koptas, walkers and flyers to be very useful for such price vs competitive lists. They're just too easy to kill and don't deal all that much damage in return. Great for fun games though.
scion comm squads are basically the most overpowered unit in the game right now.
You can blame cheap plasma
super effiecient comm squads that allow 4 specials for EVERY MODEL
or cheap deep striking scions that deploy in rapid fire range
but all of the above together makes them ridiculously efficient and undercosted.
and this is before you include the fact they are 3+ to hit and can take orders to reroll 1s and ignore gets hot rolls.
It was rumoured several times they are looking at a nerf sooner then later. ( I would think the idea is to raise the cost of scion command squad 1ppm and raise plasmagun 1ppm) 16ppm to 18ppm might not see like a huge deal but it can add up & make reg scion squads seem better.
I wouldn't count them on staying that efficient for long (and I play IG as well)
basilisks are fine (even w a master of ordinance)
conscripts are debateable on if the need to be boosted to 4ppm from 3ppm but id like to see some actual tourney results (they might be ok at 4ppm if a bit underwhelming)... they are pretty weak and comparable to pink horrors, termagaunts, and other shooty horde units. (not really grots who are more assault oriented and are poor at it)
The reason you are doing better vs plasma scions is plasma scions are OVERKILL vs basic choppa boyz. I find only a KFF helps boys durability enough to allow a 30 unit strong boy blob to survive with enough models to retain their greentide buff and wreck face in combat. I find ghaz is a force multiplier with boy heavy lists. His ability is statistically better then banner nob and works on multiple units compared to the weirdboys single unit and deniable power.
Im not looking for deffkoptas to survive beyond their turn 1 drop of bombs. They are there to harass and take pop shots while grabbing objectives after they deliver their load.
Just got the FW index. Initial read-through is pretty lackluster for Orks. Characters are fine, but no interesting rules. Vehicles are expensive. Lifta droppa doesn't chuck stuff.
JohnU wrote: Just got the FW index. Initial read-through is pretty lackluster for Orks. Characters are fine, but no interesting rules. Vehicles are expensive. Lifta droppa doesn't chuck stuff.
Meh
About in line with what people were guessing. In 7th I really wanted a squiggoth, but with trukks being MCs now it's not so critical. Pass.
JohnU wrote: Just got the FW index. Initial read-through is pretty lackluster for Orks. Characters are fine, but no interesting rules. Vehicles are expensive. Lifta droppa doesn't chuck stuff.
Meh
About in line with what people were guessing. In 7th I really wanted a squiggoth, but with trukks being MCs now it's not so critical. Pass.
Little Squiggoth is ok. 15 points more than a BW w/ Rolla. 2 more wounds but only 10 model transport and 10" move at full wounds. Deals D3 mortal wounds on a 2+ when it charges. Decent melee weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Howdah let's passengers shoot even if a unit is within 1" but they can't shoot that unit.
JohnU wrote: Just got the FW index. Initial read-through is pretty lackluster for Orks. Characters are fine, but no interesting rules. Vehicles are expensive. Lifta droppa doesn't chuck stuff.
Meh
About in line with what people were guessing. In 7th I really wanted a squiggoth, but with trukks being MCs now it's not so critical. Pass.
Little Squiggoth is ok. 15 points more than a BW w/ Rolla. 2 more wounds but only 10 model transport and 10" move at full wounds. Deals D3 mortal wounds on a 2+ when it charges. Decent melee weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Howdah let's passengers shoot even if a unit is within 1" but they can't shoot that unit.
10 model transport only? fething sad. Damn, I'm going to have to do some rearranging for my army.
gungo wrote: scion comm squads are basically the most overpowered unit in the game right now.
You can blame cheap plasma
super effiecient comm squads that allow 4 specials for EVERY MODEL
or cheap deep striking scions that deploy in rapid fire range
but all of the above together makes them ridiculously efficient and undercosted.
and this is before you include the fact they are 3+ to hit and can take orders to reroll 1s and ignore gets hot rolls.
It was rumoured several times they are looking at a nerf sooner then later. ( I would think the idea is to raise the cost of scion command squad 1ppm and raise plasmagun 1ppm) 16ppm to 18ppm might not see like a huge deal but it can add up & make reg scion squads seem better.
I wouldn't count them on staying that efficient for long (and I play IG as well)
basilisks are fine (even w a master of ordinance)
conscripts are debateable on if the need to be boosted to 4ppm from 3ppm but id like to see some actual tourney results (they might be ok at 4ppm if a bit underwhelming)... they are pretty weak and comparable to pink horrors, termagaunts, and other shooty horde units. (not really grots who are more assault oriented and are poor at it)
The reason you are doing better vs plasma scions is plasma scions are OVERKILL vs basic choppa boyz. I find only a KFF helps boys durability enough to allow a 30 unit strong boy blob to survive with enough models to retain their greentide buff and wreck face in combat. I find ghaz is a force multiplier with boy heavy lists. His ability is statistically better then banner nob and works on multiple units compared to the weirdboys single unit and deniable power.
Im not looking for deffkoptas to survive beyond their turn 1 drop of bombs. They are there to harass and take pop shots while grabbing objectives after they deliver their load.
Boys don't even need a KFF agaist scions. 8 rapid fire, 5.3 hits, 3.5 dead boys woo-hoo they just killed 15 ppints of boys.
Overloading the plasma will wound on a 2+ but kill 16 point scions shooting 6 point boys.
Scion command squads are an OP unit in the meta, but terrible against boys.
That being said a KFF is needed when conscripts FRFSRF 200 shots at typical ork BS. Orks are going to be the last players to ever underestimate a bucket of dice hitting on a 5+.
Zhardsnark is exactly what I hoped for
He is a beast in combat with 5x str12 ap-4 d3 damage. Hits on a 2+ without the silly klaw neg to hit modifier and it does an additional mortal wound on a 6.
He can advance a full 6 on his bike and waagh for all orks.
The big trakk is awesome a cheaper battlewagon that can take better weapons the supa skrocha is amazing 4d3 auto hitting str6 ap-2 d1 24in range flamer, the supa cannon is ok 2d6 str8 ap-2 d3 but takes all transport space...now I just need to play w costs.
Reinforced ram on killtank is cool and the main weapons are useful. Again depends on cost.
The kustom stompa adds a lot more offense with all the weapons I have t costed it out.
I don't get buzzgrob since he is a basic big Mek w big choppa and 2 grots I guess he is a bit more durable. It states in his rules he can take a kff but then Has no option to take it.
And the meka dread has no cost option for the mega charga or kff
Chinork is cool a transport that drops more big bombs and can take rattler guns...
And wtf is the mega dread someone email forgeworld...
The forgot the mega dread
Don't sell a rattler arm but sell a killsaw arm and killkannon arm
The meka dread has no cost for meka charga or kff. Is it free choice? Because 256 for a meka w kff rattler and rippa klaw is fine by me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnU wrote: Buzzgob is a mess. Has the KFF issue you mentioned. Shoots at 4+ but can only take a slugga.
I'd say buzzgrob is useless unless he can take a kff. I was hoping he be better at repairs or something.
fe40k wrote: How are Grot Tanks/Grot Megatanks/Killtank?
I'm hoping we have some decent vehicle-tanks in FW.
Kill Tank seems pretty good. It's got a 4+ BS and a 3+ WS with 8 attacks at full health. It's got a decent number of wounds, a 4+ save and grot riggers which heal a wound on a 6+ at the end of each turn.
It can do bonus mortal wounds on the charge, but unfortunately it can't fall back and still do things like some super heavies.
It can hold up to ten passengers, and they can shoot but only hit on a 6+. Maybe it will be a good platform for Burna Boyz or Kombi-Skorcha Nobz/MANz?
It's about 350 points with all the wargear.
(No Kill Krusha though.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Flakka Gunz only being Assault 4 seems pretty weird.
gungo wrote: Zhardsnark is exactly what I hoped for
He is a beast in combat with 5x str12 ap-4 d3 damage. Hits on a 2+ without the silly klaw neg to hit modifier and it does an additional mortal wound on a 6.
He can advance a full 6 on his bike and waagh for all orks.
The big trakk is awesome a cheaper battlewagon that can take better weapons the supa skrocha is amazing 4d3 auto hitting str6 ap-2 d1 24in range flamer, the supa cannon is ok 2d6 str8 ap-2 d3 but takes all transport space...now I just need to play w costs.
Reinforced ram on killtank is cool and the main weapons are useful. Again depends on cost.
The kustom stompa adds a lot more offense with all the weapons I have t costed it out.
I don't get buzzgrob since he is a basic big Mek w big choppa and 2 grots I guess he is a bit more durable. It states in his rules he can take a kff but then Has no option to take it.
And the meka dread has no cost option for the mega charga or kff
Chinork is cool a transport that drops more big bombs and can take rattler guns...
And wtf is the mega dread someone email forgeworld...
Does Zhadsnark have any special rules that effect bikes? He hard carried my ork armies in 7th.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Does Zhadsnark have any special rules that effect bikes? He hard carried my ork armies in 7th.
Not that I can see.
So he is just a bit killer biker boss. Well if the points line up then alright thats awesome. I was hoping he could give Bikes advance and charge or something wicked like that.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Does Zhadsnark have any special rules that effect bikes? He hard carried my ork armies in 7th.
Not that I can see.
So he is just a bit killer biker boss. Well if the points line up then alright thats awesome. I was hoping he could give Bikes advance and charge or something wicked like that.
Well he does give bikes advance and charge because he's a evil sun warboss w waagh.
His points are cheap 110
T6 and 8wounds makes him a mini monstrous creature
He has no real weapons other then that sweet kustom painklaw
I'd say in a bike list he's still your best warboss
His only reason unique rule is he moves 15 and can advance a full 6 and charge for some nice coverage on the klaw.
Zhad's Waaagh only affects infantry, but he's still solid for the points (add two big shootas to his base cost). His Klaw is a little better and he has an extra attack, but he doesn't have an attack squig.
If I wanted to use zhads ability that only effects evil sunz, couldnt I just take a squad of boyz and call THEM evil sunz but the REST of my army could be..say..goffs?
The fact his waaagh doesn't work on bikes seems Odd but no waagh work on bikes.
Otherwise he is a great bikeboss Even at 122pts. The +1 atk warlord trait just makes him better to with 6 atks.
A warboss on bike w Pk is 111
Zhardsnark is 122
He's just better for the points
To be fair the only 2 models I like in this book is zhardsnark and the meka dread with rattler gun and kff for 256pts.
The kustom stompa is better then the regular stompa and that's only because the 50pt belly gun is awesome.....but it's still not competitive.
I sent an email to forgeworld asking about the mega dread and his arms which are all still sold on thier site but have no rules (however the rattler gun is not sold and has rules... wtf)
*Note: FW Named characters do NOT have the cost of wargear included like the regular index.*
Zhadsnark
Good: A Biker Boss with slightly better stats (+1M, +1W, +1A). Bike has two big shootas and advances 6". Slighly better Klaw that can cause extra mortal wounds. Only costs a little more than a PK Biker Boss (122 pts)
Bad: Evil Sunz clan, so Breakin' Heads is limited to that clan. Waaagh only effects infantry. No Attack Squig.
Buzzgob
Good: 4+ BS, Extra grot oiler, +2W over a Big Mek
Bad: Slugga is only ranged option, KFF is listed in abilities but currently has not way to take it. Expensive (84 points) even if KFF is included (unsure, no KFF entry in points list), Melee focused with mediocre melee profile.
Fast Attack
Spoiler:
Grot Tanks
Good: Cheap (30 points before guns, min squad size 4), Grot shooting, Sergeant can take a 2nd special/heavy, 6+ Inv Bad: Must have a Big Mek in army, Grot Leadership, No CC ability, -1W and armor compared to Kans, 2d6" Move
Grot Mega Tank
Good: Grot shooting, Lotta guns, Fairly cheap (131 for all big shootas, 177 all rokkits, two twin and three single guns)
Bad: 2d6" move, Mutiny rule prevents shooting on a 1 (roll one die before shooting) on a 6 get +1 to hit but no split fire
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Squiggoth
Good: +2W, +1WS vs Battlewagon, Passengers can shoot even if a unit is within 1" but not at that unit, S7 AP -3 D6 damage melee weapon (at full wounds), D3 mortal wounds to any unit it charges on a 2+ roll
Bad: -2M, -1S, -1A vs Battlewagon, 15 points more than a BW w/ Deff Rolla (195), 10 passenger transport capacity
Meka-Dread
Good: +2M, +1BS, +1S, +8W, +3A vs Deff Dread, Better gun selection, 4+ FNP at start, Ignores Fall Back penalties, Mega Charga gets you there fast, Most options put you in the ~250ish point range
Bad: Must take Mega Charga or KFF, but no points entry for either so cost is unknown, Profile for rokkit-bomms is included but no way to take (and no entry in the points list), FW doesn't have all the arm options modeled.
Lifta-Wagon
Good: Gun auto-hits, BW stats (including Mobile Fortress)
Bad: 214 points, no transport capacity, You don't get to throw tanks around like a bad ass mofo
Big Trakk
Good: 14" move, Mobile Fortress, Regains a wound on a 6 at end of turn, lots of gun choices, probably the closest thing to Looted Wagon rules we're gonna get.
Bad: -1T, -2W vs Battlewagon, A little pricey (142 with stock two big shootas), 12 man transport capacity, 6 if you take a big gun (Kannon, Lobba, etc), 0 if you take a supa-kannon
Battlewagon w/ Supa Kannon
Good: Can transport 6 models as opposed to a Trakk w/ Supa-Kannon, long range, Supa-Kannon is 30 points
Bad: BS 5+, It's a BW with a Supa Kannon not much else to say
Lord of War
Spoiler:
Kill Tank
Good: Tough for the cost (T8, 24W, 265 pts stock), Grot Riggers, Shooty and Fighty (WS 3+, 8A, BS 4+, S10 on the charge), Deals D3 mortal wounds on the charge, 12 man transport capacity
Bad: Passengers shoot at 6+ (explicit rule)
Kustom Stompa Good: Can fix itself, more dakka than a regular Stompa
Bad: You thought a regular Stompa was expensive? Where's the shields? Same stats as a regular Stompa
Gargantuan Squiggoth
Good: Stompa toughness at half the cost (481 stock, 421 w/ Big zzaps), D6 mortal wounds on the charge, beats much face, Passengers can shoot even if a unit is within 1" but not at that unit, 20 man transport capacity
Bad: $$$$$, 10" move
Dedicated Transports
Spoiler:
Chinork
Good: 16" move, Transport that can deepstrike!, 8" advance, 2 bigbomms
Bad: Same cost as a BW for half the durability (T5, 8W) and half the transport capacity, NOT OPEN TOPPED
Breng77 wrote: Wouldn't the KFF just use the points from the Xenos 2 index?
You'd think, but since they have a wargear points list included which has lots of index stuff already, it should be in there as well even if it's 0 points.
Just noticed that the 'Ard Case is 3 points in the FW index.
Just noticed that the 'Ard Case is 3 points in the FW index.
Is this for Boyz? Do we now have the option for 4+ Boyz again? At 1 point cheaper and many fewer things ignoring their save and cover essentially making them MEQs, I'd seriously consider smaller mobs of 'Ard Boyz.
Just noticed that the 'Ard Case is 3 points in the FW index.
Is this for Boyz? Do we now have the option for 4+ Boyz again? At 1 point cheaper and many fewer things ignoring their save and cover essentially making them MEQs, I'd seriously consider smaller mobs of 'Ard Boyz.
'ard case is a vehicle upgrade, not 'eavy armor. It was unpriced in the non-FW ork index.
Also, I'm pretty excited about the gargantuan squiggoth. It seems pretty great and actually reasonably priced. Pity about the kustom stompa, I have a couple. And they are now AWFUL. Or, at best, incredibly overpriced.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Does Zhadsnark have any special rules that effect bikes? He hard carried my ork armies in 7th.
Not that I can see.
Darn...that is unfortunate. At the very least I was hoping he would have something like the old exhaust/dust cloud rule. Maybe a -1 to hit in shooting against zhadsnark and any biker boys within 6 inches. Fluffy and helpful. Would have been so easy....
Nice write up except I'm Not a fan of squiggoths without the mobile fortress rule. They are transports that can melee but can't gunwagon what I want them too such as lootas and flashgits. The gargantuan squiggoth is better becuase it's way more killy however all those heavy wpns are going to shoot on a 6+. Such an awesome looking model too.
I'm a huge fan of zhardsnark. His claw is significantly better: no -1 hit modifier, -4ap, an extra atk and does an addtional mortal wound on 6. He tears up everything in game. 2+ to hit Str 12 powerklaws w 6atks absolutely demolished vehicles and mc and is why ghaz is a beatstick in combat. And this guy is way faster then ghaz.
The more I think about it I think the mekadread just flat out tells you to choose the kff or the megachsrger and its included in the price which makes it a decent durable kff unit for 256 w rattler arm. I think the rokkit bombs are the same it just isnt even listed as a carried weapon.
I think buzzgrob might come w a kff as well but he is still lackluster w a free kff even if he is a bit more durable. I was at least hoping he worked like ghaz and can work on ANY clan vehicles.
The big trakk w supa skorcha is the only one I like and it might be the only version worth taking w 6 burnas for some serious flame action.
Mekadread and zhardsnark are probably the only 2 units I'll use from this dex.
This sucks big hairy balls. I was really hoping Zhadsnark could breath some life into warbikers because I have 34 of them and right now they aren't playable.
Yes warbikes are fast, but they can't Advance and charge, can't deep strike, cant jink and so far in most of the games ive played they end up with a 5+ or 6+ armor save which negates there 2wound buff.
All told the warbikers went up in cost 50% and become crappeir :(
JohnU wrote: Here's a general overview of the FW Ork Index
HQ
Spoiler:
*Note: FW Named characters do NOT have the cost of wargear included like the regular index.*
Zhadsnark
Good: A Biker Boss with slightly better stats (+1M, +1W, +1A). Bike has two big shootas and advances 6". Slighly better Klaw that can cause extra mortal wounds. Only costs a little more than a PK Biker Boss (122 pts)
Bad: Evil Sunz clan, so Breakin' Heads is limited to that clan. Waaagh only effects infantry. No Attack Squig.
Buzzgob
Good: 4+ BS, Extra grot oiler, +2W over a Big Mek
Bad: Slugga is only ranged option, KFF is listed in abilities but currently has not way to take it. Expensive (84 points) even if KFF is included (unsure, no KFF entry in points list), Melee focused with mediocre melee profile.
Fast Attack
Spoiler:
Grot Tanks
Good: Cheap (30 points before guns, min squad size 4), Grot shooting, Sergeant can take a 2nd special/heavy, 6+ Inv Bad: Must have a Big Mek in army, Grot Leadership, No CC ability, -1W and armor compared to Kans, 2d6" Move
Grot Mega Tank
Good: Grot shooting, Lotta guns, Fairly cheap (131 for all big shootas, 177 all rokkits, two twin and three single guns)
Bad: 2d6" move, Mutiny rule prevents shooting on a 1 (roll one die before shooting) on a 6 get +1 to hit but no split fire
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Squiggoth
Good: +2W, +1WS vs Battlewagon, Passengers can shoot even if a unit is within 1" but not at that unit, S7 AP -3 D6 damage melee weapon (at full wounds), D3 mortal wounds to any unit it charges on a 2+ roll
Bad: -2M, -1S, -1A vs Battlewagon, 15 points more than a BW w/ Deff Rolla (195), 10 passenger transport capacity
Meka-Dread
Good: +2M, +1BS, +1S, +8W, +3A vs Deff Dread, Better gun selection, 4+ FNP at start, Ignores Fall Back penalties, Mega Charga gets you there fast, Most options put you in the ~250ish point range
Bad: Must take Mega Charga or KFF, but no points entry for either so cost is unknown, Profile for rokkit-bomms is included but no way to take (and no entry in the points list), FW doesn't have all the arm options modeled.
Lifta-Wagon
Good: Gun auto-hits, BW stats (including Mobile Fortress)
Bad: 214 points, no transport capacity, You don't get to throw tanks around like a bad ass mofo
Big Trakk
Good: 14" move, Mobile Fortress, Regains a wound on a 6 at end of turn, lots of gun choices, probably the closest thing to Looted Wagon rules we're gonna get.
Bad: -1T, -2W vs Battlewagon, A little pricey (142 with stock two big shootas), 12 man transport capacity, 6 if you take a big gun (Kannon, Lobba, etc), 0 if you take a supa-kannon
Battlewagon w/ Supa Kannon
Good: Can transport 6 models as opposed to a Trakk w/ Supa-Kannon, long range, Supa-Kannon is 30 points
Bad: BS 5+, It's a BW with a Supa Kannon not much else to say
Lord of War
Spoiler:
Kill Tank
Good: Tough for the cost (T8, 24W, 265 pts stock), Grot Riggers, Shooty and Fighty (WS 3+, 8A, BS 4+, S10 on the charge), Deals D3 mortal wounds on the charge, 12 man transport capacity
Bad: Passengers shoot at 6+ (explicit rule)
Kustom Stompa Good: Can fix itself, more dakka than a regular Stompa
Bad: You thought a regular Stompa was expensive? Where's the shields? Same stats as a regular Stompa
Gargantuan Squiggoth
Good: Stompa toughness at half the cost (481 stock, 421 w/ Big zzaps), D6 mortal wounds on the charge, beats much face, Passengers can shoot even if a unit is within 1" but not at that unit, 20 man transport capacity
Bad: $$$$$, 10" move
Dedicated Transports
Spoiler:
Chinork
Good: 16" move, Transport that can deepstrike!, 8" advance, 2 bigbomms
Bad: Same cost as a BW for half the durability (T5, 8W) and half the transport capacity, NOT OPEN TOPPED
Zhadsnark looks like a CC killer; but no rule to make bikers troops makes me sad.
Mek Buzzgob is nothing more than a repair bot; but d3+2 and no movement restrictions seems real solid for repairing large vehicles. If he has a (free) KFF, that might make me consider taking him.
Grot Tanks/Mega Tanks look fun; but realistically not worth their points, doubly so with the random movement. Might have to use a few just cause though.
Squiggoth is really cool, and I'd heavily consider it if it had Mobile Fortress - but without it, what's the point? It mulches things in melee, but that's all it can do. Maybe the Howdah rule might make it a decent mixed arms if it gets into melee...; but seems less functional than its points cost. No "'ere we go" means charges are going to be SUPER risky; if it had that special rule, it'd probably be solid.
Lifta Wagon is cool with the auto-hits; but d6 shots and only 1 mortal wound her hit/wound means in reality it has a very low damage output, especially against the things you'd want to mortal wound.
Big Trakk+Supa-Skorcha looks great; but that seems like the only solid loadout - other gun/transport options are better served with other choices.
BW w/ Supa-Kannon looks like it'd be solid, but BS5 makes it major eh; I'd probably rather take a Mek gunline - though I'm entirely discounting the ability to transport troops.
Kill Tanks have surprising amounts of dakka and melee prowess; but compared to Dakkajets/Mek gunlines, they feel overpriced. That said, theyre more mobile than Mek Gunlinez, and a little tougher than Dakkajets so... maybe they're ok. With jets having -1 to hit though, that's actually a huge deal. - Kill Tanks also being Lords Of War mean you need to take special detachments just for them; which gets pricey quick, or limits your other options. BS4+ is boss though.
Edit: How could I forget the Chinork Warkopta - No "open topped" makes it entirely useless as a vehicle; it needs Open Topped or a special rule (say: Rapid Deployment - When the Chinork Warkopta is deployed, the units inside can disembark immediately. For each model disembarking, roll a d6; on a 1, the unit takes a mortal wound. Models disembarked this way count as having moved during the movement phase, and may not move further this movement phase (but can still shoot/charge).) Not being able to do anything when you deploy within 9" means you'll just get shot up and die; you can't even use it as a gunboat. Kommandos are better for general 9" deepstrike shenanigans.
There is a use for the gargantuan squiggoth as a tankbusta wagon that virtually industructable. Doesn't blow up and can do a lot of damage in melee and still allow bustas to shoot in combat However that's a lot of points.
421 plus 15tankbustas and 5 squigs 305 =726
Furthermore I think stampede is a typo it is suppose to be 2+ it does d6 mortal wounds on charge to all units within 1in.
SemperMortis wrote: This sucks big hairy balls. I was really hoping Zhadsnark could breath some life into warbikers because I have 34 of them and right now they aren't playable.
Yes warbikes are fast, but they can't Advance and charge, can't deep strike, cant jink and so far in most of the games ive played they end up with a 5+ or 6+ armor save which negates there 2wound buff.
All told the warbikers went up in cost 50% and become crappeir :(
Honestly I think they were just too lazy or unsure to put rules in the selection. Every other bike entry has something that makes them a little unique (1 single special rule) Warbikes got nuthing. Which is so hard for me to believe cause they are probably one of the fluffiest biker units in the game.
I honestly think that its hard to take 8th edition seriously cause it seems like they white washed alot of the units (due to the soft release ie no codexes). Hopeing alot more fluff and competative options when books actually hit (whenever that is)
Hoping for bike option for banner, in additon to many other things.
The meka dread is obviously suppose to purchase the rokkit bomm racks for 13pts. I'm just not sure if it's optional or not regardless it's a decent weapon for 13pts. Still 269 is decent for what I need it for.
Someone was asking for size comparison to a deft dread. It's significantly bigger but smaller than a gorkanaut. Google has a few comparisons.
gungo wrote: There is a use for the gargantuan squiggoth as a tankbusta wagon that virtually industructable
Equivalent points of scion plasma comsquads will one-shot a squiggoth. Even without orders. So, i'd not call it virtually indistructible. It's virtually one-shottable with competitive stuff unless you bauble wrap it with a ton of boyz and never leave the bauble. But than...what's the point of a squiggoth? Just take more boyz.
Stop with the constant comparing everything to the most overpowered unit in the game it doesnt serve any purpose.
It has nothing to do with balance or proper point costs. Yes deepstriking 35 overcharged plasma weapons into rapid fire range will kill anything. That's not the point. You can take equivilant points of plasma scions and kill anything in one turn even a warlord Titan if you could somehow fit 200+ scions in rapid fire range.
Now how many scion command squads could a gargantuan squiggoth get within 1in when it charges? A lot given The size and titanic keyword of the model and each squad takes d6 mortal wounds on a 2+... that's a lot of dead scion squads on the charge.
gungo wrote: Stop with the constant comparing everything to the most overpowered unit in the game it doesnt serve any purpose.
It has nothing to do with balance or proper point costs. Yes deepstriking 35 overcharged plasma weapons into rapid fire range will kill anything. That's not the point. You can take equivilant points of plasma scions and kill anything in one turn even a warlord Titan if you could somehow fit 200+ scions in rapid fire range.
Now how many scion command squads could a gargantuan squiggoth get within 1in when it charges? A lot given The size and titanic keyword of the model and each squad takes d6 mortal wounds on a 2+... that's a lot of dead scion squads on the charge.
That'd be cool if it somehow survived overwatch. I think that the squiggoth's size is more of a problem actually. It's pretty hard to bauble-wrap. Battlewagons are not bad at what they do and are easier to protect from deepstrikers.
gungo wrote: There is a use for the gargantuan squiggoth as a tankbusta wagon that virtually industructable
Equivalent points of scion plasma comsquads will one-shot a squiggoth. Even without orders. So, i'd not call it virtually indistructible. It's virtually one-shottable with competitive stuff unless you bauble wrap it with a ton of boyz and never leave the bauble. But than...what's the point of a squiggoth? Just take more boyz.
Does a KFF Big Mek make it cost ineffective to drop plasma comsquads on the Gargantuan Squiggoth?
gungo wrote: Stop with the constant comparing everything to the most overpowered unit in the game it doesnt serve any purpose.
It has nothing to do with balance or proper point costs. Yes deepstriking 35 overcharged plasma weapons into rapid fire range will kill anything. That's not the point. You can take equivilant points of plasma scions and kill anything in one turn even a warlord Titan if you could somehow fit 200+ scions in rapid fire range.
Now how many scion command squads could a gargantuan squiggoth get within 1in when it charges? A lot given The size and titanic keyword of the model and each squad takes d6 mortal wounds on a 2+... that's a lot of dead scion squads on the charge.
That'd be cool if it somehow survived overwatch. I think that the squiggoth's size is more of a problem actually. It's pretty hard to bauble-wrap. Battlewagons are not bad at what they do and are easier to protect from deepstrikers.
Let's see 9 squads of command squads is 36 scions in rapid fire range cause I'm nice is 12 hits for 6 wounds is a whooping 12wds and 6 dead scions from gets hot. Unless you pay for 9 orders somehow. Regardless now the gargatuan squiggoth charges with its 23 remaining wounds and kills 26+ scions becuase each squad takes d6 mortal wounds on a 2+. So including the gets hot fails 32+ out of your 36scions are now dead..... I assume most of those 4 survivors will die from morale tests. So the squiggoth wipes out the entire 9 scions squads before he even gets his atks first but let's assume those 4 scions would die to the 8 str12 ws3+ ap-4 d6 wounds.... see how hypotheticals work!
You don't want to bubble wrap your garg squiggoth you want to charge and get that model within 1in of as many units as possible.
You don't need to embark a kff having 1 foot of the model inside the kff bubble is enough to get the entire unit in the bubble. Oh btw those 36 scionscost 576 pts more then the garg squiggoth. I wonder what will you ever do once scion command squads gets nerfed!
Frozocrone wrote: What do people enjoy more, Trukk Boyz or 30 footsloggers?
I dont bother with trukk boyz. 12 in a trukk is just too small of a number to get any work done and even more so now that the trukk costs 2x as much as before.
Frozocrone wrote: What do people enjoy more, Trukk Boyz or 30 footsloggers?
Mobs of 30 boyz are great if they are in numbers, at least 3-4 blobs and with the buffs added by some characters like the nob with the bannner, painobys and weirdboys. Hordes look quite competitive now.
However units of 20 in battlewagons seem quite killy too, they have the numbers to do a lot of damage and the survivability granted by the transport. If you're planning to use ghaz a BW full of boyz is the best option, otherwise he may never reach combat.
Trukk boyz are the weakest choice, they're not useless but 12 boyz without the buffs aren't scary. Maybe a list full of fast units may make them shiny but bikes and buggies are way overcosted. Go with 6 trukks, a biker mek with KFF and a biker boss plus some mek gunz and/or kommandos if you want to use them.
I'm trying 3 wagons full of boyz, I can't stand moving 90+ boyz on foot and I don't even have more than 90 boyz. Transports are quite expensive now but they have become much more reliable in 8th edition.
Let's see 9 squads of command squads is 36 scions in rapid fire range cause I'm nice is 12 hits for 6 wounds is a whooping 12wds
36 scions is 48 hits, 24 wounds, 20 go through 6+ armor, exactly 40 damage. You won't be able to charge if there's no model left. If you're playing vs strong deepstrike, you got to bauble wrap. Last game i played vs scion comsquad spam, they one-shot a landraider and a predator on 1-st turn in a 1k pt game. The game was over before sm had a chance to really do anything. You got to have bauble wrap in 8-th or you got to be able to hide stuff in deepstrike yourself. Ideally, you got to be able to do both. Orks can handle scions if we spam enough boyz.
Let's see 9 squads of command squads is 36 scions in rapid fire range cause I'm nice is 12 hits for 6 wounds is a whooping 12wds
36 scions is 48 hits, 24 wounds, 20 go through 6+ armor, exactly 40 damage. You won't be able to charge if there's no model left. If you're playing vs strong deepstrike, you got to bauble wrap. Last game i played vs scion comsquad spam, they one-shot a landraider and a predator on 1-st turn in a 1k pt game. The game was over before sm had a chance to really do anything. You got to have bauble wrap in 8-th or you got to be able to hide stuff in deepstrike yourself. Ideally, you got to be able to do both. Orks can handle scions if we spam enough boyz.
NOT on overwatch which is what I was replying too
Let's put your hypotheticals away comparing every unit vs the most broken unit in the game.
Deepstriking cheap scion command squads can kill anything at equal points even a 4000+pt warlord Titan. There is absolutely no point for you to keep bringing it up over and over vs every unit in the game. It's going to get nerfed.
The garg squiggoth is still a good unit even in a world of scion command squads but it's has its issues being a gunwagon for heavy wpns.
Did my second game of 8th edition (2000 points) against Ad Mech with an army I always wanted to try in 7th:
No boyz. Just Nobz.
my list had:
2 Battlewagons with 2 5 nob squads a warboss, and a banner nob in each,
1 trukk with a 5 nob squad a warboss, and a banner nob.
A burna bomber
a 5 gun squad of zapp gunz.
Some takeaways were:
Nobz were great. They wrecked face with their big choppas, (and a couple of klaws) and the 2+ to hit is so great. Makes them very, very killy.
Ammo runts are so fantastic it's incredible. They soaked the explosion damage from the one battlewagon my opponent killed on turn 1, and ate some serious firepower when my nobz got in close to some nasty robots. The fact that they don't count towards morale was just the icing on the cake. Totally worth filling the empty seats of the wagons/trukk with grots.
Zapp Guns would have been better if we weren't playing the mission where everyone is -1 to hit unless they're 18 inches away. Still think they're worth taking,
The burna bomber was a great distraction for turn 1, and it was able to take out a unit of rad-gun toting dudes to make way for my nobs to kill some heavy firepower in the back field. I think I might try a 5 gun unit of lobbas next time, however, and see how it goes. 5d6 shots sounds nice.
Having only 5 drops was fantastic. I was able to easily get first turn that way.
The game ended a turn early, but it was my 6 points to his 1 point. There was a lot of carnage, but I had the advantage with more boots on the ground. I think this list deserves a second chance
Let's see 9 squads of command squads is 36 scions in rapid fire range cause I'm nice is 12 hits for 6 wounds is a whooping 12wds
36 scions is 48 hits, 24 wounds, 20 go through 6+ armor, exactly 40 damage. You won't be able to charge if there's no model left. If you're playing vs strong deepstrike, you got to bauble wrap. Last game i played vs scion comsquad spam, they one-shot a landraider and a predator on 1-st turn in a 1k pt game. The game was over before sm had a chance to really do anything. You got to have bauble wrap in 8-th or you got to be able to hide stuff in deepstrike yourself. Ideally, you got to be able to do both. Orks can handle scions if we spam enough boyz.
NOT on overwatch which is what I was replying too
Let's put your hypotheticals away comparing every unit vs the most broken unit in the game.
Deepstriking cheap scion command squads can kill anything at equal points even a 4000+pt warlord Titan. There is absolutely no point for you to keep bringing it up over and over vs every unit in the game. It's going to get nerfed.
The garg squiggoth is still a good unit even in a world of scion command squads but it's has its issues being a gunwagon for heavy wpns.
I still think that 2-3 battlewagons are better than a garg squiggoth.
I thought I saw some folks on this thread mention a while back that weirdboyz were more likely to suffer Perils when adding the modifiers for being near large numbers of Orks. But now that I have the rule book, I see it says you only suffer Perils when rolling double ones or double sixes, not a "12+". So it seems like modifiers don't change the odds of Perils. Is that how everyone else understands it?
If that is the case, then weirdboyz in hordes will be quite fun! It will be very difficult for other psykers to nullify a weirdboy power with a large bonus modifier.
The Riddle of Steel wrote: I thought I saw some folks on this thread mention a while back that weirdboyz were more likely to suffer Perils when adding the modifiers for being near large numbers of Orks. But now that I have the rule book, I see it says you only suffer Perils when rolling double ones or double sixes, not a "12+". So it seems like modifiers don't change the odds of Perils. Is that how everyone else understands it?
If that is the case, then weirdboyz in hordes will be quite fun! It will be very difficult for other psykers to nullify a weirdboy power with a large bonus modifier.
The Waagh energy rule on the weird boy states he perils on a 12+
The Riddle of Steel wrote: I thought I saw some folks on this thread mention a while back that weirdboyz were more likely to suffer Perils when adding the modifiers for being near large numbers of Orks. But now that I have the rule book, I see it says you only suffer Perils when rolling double ones or double sixes, not a "12+". So it seems like modifiers don't change the odds of Perils. Is that how everyone else understands it?
If that is the case, then weirdboyz in hordes will be quite fun! It will be very difficult for other psykers to nullify a weirdboy power with a large bonus modifier.
The Waagh energy rule on the weird boy states he perils on a 12+
Thanks! That makes sense. I was wondering about that.
Nob Bikers have been playing well for me; really survivable in addition to being mobile and very killy. Regular Warbikers are okay, but they're currently overpriced and can get mowed down by 2-damage spam (like autocannons and plasma guns).
I just want to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I've read every post from the first page and learned a lot. With three little kids, I don't get a lot of time to paint or play so I rely on you guys to tell me which units are decent so I can paint the stuff that is at least mediocre and also to help understand how our units actually play on the battlefield since I find the new rules fairly vague and incomplete. Without this thread, I would be lost! Thanks.
Are Dakkajets still the best of the Ork flyers? I got the flyer set and want to confirm that they are still good or find out if one of the others are really strong before I put it together.
TillForPie wrote: How are bikers overall? Recently came into six and wondering if they are worth their points.
As mentioned they are mediocre at best this edition. They went up in price 50% and in my opinion they lost durability even though they gained a wound. 4+ jink (3+ with turbo or nightfighting, or 2+ with that and Zhadsnark) was HUGE, even more importantly it allowed them to at least attempt to save things that this edition kills them outright, add to that the fact that Painboyz are kind of crap these days and you can see the problem.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Are Dakkajets still the best of the Ork flyers? I got the flyer set and want to confirm that they are still good or find out if one of the others are really strong before I put it together.
Dakkajets put a lot of shots out at BS4+, they're a pretty good anti-everything unit that can focus down transports or threaten artillery parked in a corner. Burna-bommers are still the black sheep of the ork plane family, being kind of mediocre at everything and unlikely to make their points back. Blitza-bommers are basically scaled-up deffkoptas, they're marginally better than burna-bommers but really need to bomb large units to make their points back. As for the Wazbom it has a lot of weapons that are good vs multi-wound targets like vehicles, maybe could be a bit of a swiss-army knife with it's stikkbom flinga, or even used to fly over bubble wraps and snipe multi-wound characters from behind with clever positioning, but seems inferior as a mobile KFF compared to a bike mek due to awkward movement and pays a crapton for it's weapons on a fragile body. Overall the Dakkajet is still a very safe option, and is what I'm doing my next waaaghplane as.
Edit to add some more thoughts: The main problems with the ork planes are the supersonic rule making movement a pain (they'll probably spend most of the game flying in a rectangle around the board center due to 90 degree turns), fragility vs melee units with fly, and how much they pay for their guns. Seriously, supa shootas should be 5 points if the rest of the plane is so much!
Are Ammo Runtz/Bomb Squigs taking up a space on a vehicle? Can you use them more than once? Can they be removed as a casualty?
A tankbusta with a pair of rokkit pistols on a trukk that is locked in ongoing CC with another vehicle can fire it's rokkit pistols at the target the trukk is in an assault with and reroll misses if it is vs. an enemy vehicle?
The Gorkanaught's Crush attack is considered str 16 at full wounds?
Rismonite wrote: Are Ammo Runtz/Bomb Squigs taking up a space on a vehicle? Can you use them more than once? Can they be removed as a casualty?
A tankbusta with a pair of rokkit pistols on a trukk that is locked in ongoing CC with another vehicle can fire it's rokkit pistols at the target the trukk is in an assault with and reroll misses if it is vs. an enemy vehicle?
The Gorkanaught's Crush attack is considered str 16 at full wounds?
Thank you for your help
Both take up space. You can use runts once per phase (presumably on overwatch too--but not embarked), not bomb squigs. Da squiggy blows up with his bomb
Both can be removed as a casualty, and any wounds the unit takes can be applied to them. Note nobs with runts let the runt count as t5!
I think rokkit pistols embarked on a locked vehicle can shoot in the shooting phase, but only the nearest model--in this case the other vehicle. Tankhunter would still apply.
Also, how are we rolling shots in a unit of ten Meganobz with Kombi-Skorchas? Do we roll one d6, then multiply the result by 10? Or do we roll 10 D6, then add up shots then roll wounds?
Rismonite wrote: Also, how are we rolling shots in a unit of ten Meganobz with Kombi-Skorchas? Do we roll one d6, then multiply the result by 10? Or do we roll 10 D6, then add up shots then roll wounds?
In the rule book it states anything that is D* is rolled on a model basis, unless the unit or another rule states otherwise. Aka, lootas and burna's.
So with MANz you would roll 10x D6.
I think that of all the flyers, burna bombers are the ones with highest survivability. Cause if they don't get killed 1-st turn, the opponent would rarely want to risk shooting them for fear of 3 mortal wounds to everything within 6'. They explode on a 4+ unlike other vehicles and you can even spend a cp to make it a 75% chance to explode at the right moment. I'd definitely take them iа they could volunteerly go suicidal.
Played three games in the last 4 days. 30 boyz blobs continue to be the work horse of the army. Tankbustas (10 with 2 bomb squigs in a trukk) continue..GAME AFTER GAME to be my MVP unit. Continuously earning their points back and then some. Vehicles just get decimated, and even high toughness multi wound models are pummeled by rokkits. Cant seem to make kommandos work. I will keep trying. I converted about 20 from scratch and greenstuff so I have a lot of time invested into that unit.
One game against dark eldar (drukhari..I guess?) did 75 power level (ABOUT 1500 points) and I brought 90 boyz, 10 kommandos, MA warboss, weirdboy with warpath, big mek and KFF, nob with waaagghh banner, trukk-tankbustas. He had three raiders with warriors, big whych blob, big hellion unit, incubi/archon/succubus "unit" and a couple deep striking scourge units. WTF is with those scourges with heat lances. My god talk about a broken unit. The tank bustas were taking out a raider a turn. ramshakle (I got a few lucky rolls turning multi damage into one and repairing with big mek) saved my butt a few times! Boyz (one blob didnt lose a single greenskin until they reached combat) buffed by weirdboy swarmed his arachon, succubus, incubi and raider with warriors and when the dust settled over a couple turns.. everything was dead. including the boyz but I will take that tradeoff anyday. I charged in and had almost 150 attacks (decent charge roll and bad positioning by him led me to get almost every boy in).. it was insane.
I lost the game though. STOOOPID I didnt hold my own objective. He didnt capture, but I charged my MA warboss into the whych blob. They tried for three turns to crack him open and kept beating on him like a concete wall. A few wounds and I tried to fall back to take his objective on the bottom of the last turn and they whyces lashes didnt let me ..fail ahaha. oh well we got stuck in and thats what counts.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Tankbustas (10 with 2 bomb squigs in a trukk) continue..GAME AFTER GAME to be my MVP unit. Continuously earning their points back and then some. Vehicles just get decimated, and even high toughness multi wound models are pummeled by rokkits.
How are you running these?
Are you using Tankhammers or rokkit pistols, or just plain rokkits and squigs?
Do you keep them in the truck and out of combat, or do you drive close enough to throw grenades?
Isn't it better to run 2 units of 5 (+1 squig) so you get the extra free nob, and the ability to throw 2 grenades if you get close enough?
I like the double grenade trukk too
Anyway I thought this guys blog is excellent at showing how good boy blobs are.
He's been wrecking face w this list. Using high volume of boy blob atks, 200+ boys w kff, smite spam abc exteemeky fast list movement.
I'm surprised he doesn't have issues a fliers without stormboys but smite spam is strong.
I think he can do an improvement w zhardsnark over a basic warboss on bike too.
But otherwise his list is hard counter meta list that's difficult to deal with unless you list build against it.
https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/2017/06/episode-29-red-games-go-faster-orks-vs.html?m=1
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Tankbustas (10 with 2 bomb squigs in a trukk) continue..GAME AFTER GAME to be my MVP unit. Continuously earning their points back and then some. Vehicles just get decimated, and even high toughness multi wound models are pummeled by rokkits.
How are you running these?
Are you using Tankhammers or rokkit pistols, or just plain rokkits and squigs?
Do you keep them in the truck and out of combat, or do you drive close enough to throw grenades?
Isn't it better to run 2 units of 5 (+1 squig) so you get the extra free nob, and the ability to throw 2 grenades if you get close enough?
Rokkit pistols are only 1 per 5, which seems to make them pretty useless. As the only benefit is if you survive in a round of combat in order to be able to fire them in combat. And if your tankbusta's are in combat for more than a round it sounds like a bad plan.
At one point my plan was rokkit pistols in trukk. Charge the trukk into combat and fire pistols into combat and then someone pointed out to me that it's 1 per 5 and they are pretty bad bs anything but toughness 6 1-2 wound units which is not what tankbustas are meant to shoot. Double squad in trukk growing out 2d3 busta bombs that do d6 wounds is the way to go. Keep them in the trukk and just use it as a gunboat. Trukks are durable especially as you keep 1 tire on range of kff.
How are you running these?
Are you using Tankhammers or rokkit pistols, or just plain rokkits and squigs?
Do you keep them in the truck and out of combat, or do you drive close enough to throw grenades?
Isn't it better to run 2 units of 5 (+1 squig) so you get the extra free nob, and the ability to throw 2 grenades if you get close enough?
Straight up one unit of 10 all with rokkits. Nob and 2 squigs. No rokkit pistols, no MSU, no tank hammas. They hang back and fire. Use the trukk to get around terrain and get to where they need to go. I try not to get them in combat (so tank hammas only stymie the way I use them). If the trukk gets assualted, I just have the bustas hop out and fire, and try to use the trukk to block/disrupt any would be assaulters and manuever in a manner that would maybe let them get back in.
Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers: If a unit of Gretchin includes 20 or more models, you can add 1 to thier hit rolls.
Vague AF, means grots hit on 3s if they 20 or more. Prob not enough to warrant taking them over boyz but maybe.
If you jumping a 90pts unit of Grots across the table and then firing. They only need to kill a couple marines and then get blown of the board for them to earn their points back.
Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers: If a unit of Gretchin includes 20 or more models, you can add 1 to thier hit rolls.
Vague AF, means grots hit on 3s if they 20 or more. Prob not enough to warrant taking them over boyz but maybe.
If you jumping a 90pts unit of Grots across the table and then firing. They only need to kill a couple marines and then get blown of the board for them to earn their points back.
It would be AWESOME if they were conscripts instead of grots...
I don't really see why we need 3 ppm grots now. Boyz are still relatively cheap and are really dangerous unlike grots that just evaporate without an expensive runtherd. And +1 to hit is a joke. 30 grots still only kill around 2 marines with shooting. Why don't you spend a bit more points on boyz and actually get to do way more than grots can hope to accomplish. The only thing they're somewhat better at is 1-st turn deepstrike denial and filling troop slots for 30 pts. But than i'd rather spend 60 and get a squad of 10 shootas with a nob that can occasionally wreck face. And they can perform the area denial role too.
They used to be those troop fillers because you didn't need troops in 7. But now you actually want to field those boyz. Also, you can no longer use grot's size to full advantage. If the opponent sees 1 grot, he can still kill the whole squad. And all he actually needs is to kill 5-6 and the rest will just run away. Also, with how cover works they're not even able to give cover to boyz.
So, i'd say that grots are even more pointless than burnas atm.
Oh and 3ppm conscripts just make grot's point cost look so sad. It's like a space marine that costs 6 ppm.
Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers: If a unit of Gretchin includes 20 or more models, you can add 1 to thier hit rolls.
Vague AF, means grots hit on 3s if they 20 or more. Prob not enough to warrant taking them over boyz but maybe.
If you jumping a 90pts unit of Grots across the table and then firing. They only need to kill a couple marines and then get blown of the board for them to earn their points back.
I just did that in a game yesterday to steal an objective from an enemy (Maelstrom mission where you can archive enemies capture objectives), they killed a grand total of three tactical marines. It did take surprising amounts of firepower to remove them, but I tend to agree with koooaei here - a unit of shoota boyz might have done more.
koooaei wrote: I don't really see why we need 3 ppm grots now. Boyz are still relatively cheap and are really dangerous unlike grots that just evaporate without an expensive runtherd. And +1 to hit is a joke. 30 grots still only kill around 2 marines with shooting. Why don't you spend a bit more points on boyz and actually get to do way more than grots can hope to accomplish. The only thing they're somewhat better at is 1-st turn deepstrike denial and filling troop slots for 30 pts. But than i'd rather spend 60 and get a squad of 10 shootas with a nob that can occasionally wreck face. And they can perform the area denial role too.
They used to be those troop fillers because you didn't need troops in 7. But now you actually want to field those boyz. Also, you can no longer use grot's size to full advantage. If the opponent sees 1 grot, he can still kill the whole squad. And all he actually needs is to kill 5-6 and the rest will just run away. Also, with how cover works they're not even able to give cover to boyz.
So, i'd say that grots are even more pointless than burnas atm.
Oh and 3ppm conscripts just make grot's point cost look so sad. It's like a space marine that costs 6 ppm.
I got so sick of taking grotz as required troop choices in 7th edition that I refuse to take them in 8th edition. The exception to this is the Mek Gunz KMK, which seem to be awesome.
If I stick a Nob with Waaagh banner in a Gorkanaut, does the Gorkanaut hit on 2+?
I'm not too sure whether one can cast psychic powers inside a transport but I kinda feel like building a list with a KFF Big Mek and Waagh Banner inside a Gorkanaut while a Weird Boy sends them off and let's them distracted the enemy while my 90+ boyz walk up.
I really need it to be Wednesday so my GW has the rulebook restocked.
Weirdboy can only jump ork infantry. Also same for waaagghh banner. Also I don't think psychic power work while embarked. Most things don't unless the rule specifically says so...like the kff but even that only extends to the vehicle he is embarked in only.
). Great for hitting those key backline 
