Hades wrote: Is ten stormboyz enough for a tournament style list? I had bought a box simply because I liked the models but was recently was gifted another. Ideally they would add to the alpha charge of 40 jumped boyz and ten kommandos Should the nob bother with a weapon upgrade?
If I only had ten I would consider running them 2x5 just to go for an objective fast and then maybe spend a turn denying an important enemy unit it's movement phase. I think a good goal for any timed game is trying to deny your opponent good movement phases by simply just putting things in the way while you grab objectives. Stormboyz, Planes, Jumped Shoota boyz and grotz, Kommandos, Buggies excel at getting in da way and, except the plane, scoring. Hopefully, you have the speed and bodies to grab objectives and be ahead and not tabled by the end of turn three or four, at which point you run out of time.
I play green tide and always take 1 or 2 mobs of 30 shoota boyz. As others have mentioned, I prefer them for my first turn jump target. If you're maxing out on boyz, sometimes you just can't get everyone stuck in combat. The shootas can hang back on an objective and possibly plink away at something. They give a little flexibility, but overall choppas are the better choice for raw damage output (in my experience).
koooaei wrote: What's that in the backfield that you need protecting that grots are better at than grot gunners?
Well you are obviously protecting against deepstrikes, so you are protecting the board. And when compared to 3ppm gretchin, grot gunners come with expensive mek gunz and are at a huge area denial disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I take KMKs instead of gretchin, but I also take other heavy armoured units so my KMKs are not the only good target for lascannons. But I think you might be intentionally ignoring the obvious answers here.
koooaei wrote: What's that in the backfield that you need protecting that grots are better at than grot gunners?
Well you are obviously protecting against deepstrikes, so you are protecting the board. And when compared to 3ppm gretchin, grot gunners come with expensive mek gunz and are at a huge area denial disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I take KMKs instead of gretchin, but I also take other heavy armoured units so my KMKs are not the only good target for lascannons. But I think you might be intentionally ignoring the obvious answers here.
Indeed, i am. I think that grots can have a place but it in no way justifies their horrible profile. Grots would have been amazing in a necron army. Or in a SM army if they had no access to guards. But the "grots are the best unit in an ork army" is a gross overstatement. I know that none of you actually advocate that grots are THE best unit. All you're trying to do, at least as i understand it, is say that grots have an implementation and they can be good at some exact role. At which i say: Yeah, but this role is extremely niche for our army and can better be filled with boyz because, while taking less space and being a bit less durable vs s5-7 fire, they ARE better at everything else.
My logics is simple. To use grots, you take points away from the list and dump them to fill this exact niche which is fine and all but if you take the exact same amount of points and dump thim in boyz, they not only fill that niche, albeit a bit less effective in some situations, but also provide other quite important opportunities. Like being able to merge into other units when they get thinned out, being able to wreck face to small units - and i've done it countless times cause i often play vs hardcore players that like, for example, spamming scion comsquads. if they drop in and target something important, they got to make bloody sure they also deal with 10 shootaboyz that stand nearby cause otherwise, they'll loose the squad. 20 grots? Yeah, they'll kill a couple scions but than there are still a couple left. And shootaboyz will just wreck them in mellee before taking a coupe out with shooting.
Grots can be used to just fill space behind your lines. To not get the deepstrikers in the back. But keep in mind that they don't provide an absolute protection. Grots are very very easy to kill. If the opponent wants to ds in the back, he WILL kill the grots regardless.
koooaei wrote: What's that in the backfield that you need protecting that grots are better at than grot gunners?
Well you are obviously protecting against deepstrikes, so you are protecting the board. And when compared to 3ppm gretchin, grot gunners come with expensive mek gunz and are at a huge area denial disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I take KMKs instead of gretchin, but I also take other heavy armoured units so my KMKs are not the only good target for lascannons. But I think you might be intentionally ignoring the obvious answers here.
Indeed, i am. I think that grots can have a place but it in no way justifies their horrible profile. Grots would have been amazing in a necron army. Or in a SM army if they had no access to guards. But the "grots are the best unit in an ork army" is a gross overstatement. I know that none of you actually advocate that grots are THE best unit. All you're trying to do, at least as i understand it, is say that grots have an implementation and they can be good at some exact role. At which i say: Yeah, but this role is extremely niche for our army and can better be filled with boyz because, while taking less space and being a bit less durable vs s5-7 fire, they ARE better at everything else.
My logics is simple. To use grots, you take points away from the list and dump them to fill this exact niche which is fine and all but if you take the exact same amount of points and dump thim in boyz, they not only fill that niche, albeit a bit less effective in some situations, but also provide other quite important opportunities. Like being able to merge into other units when they get thinned out, being able to wreck face to small units - and i've done it countless times cause i often play vs hardcore players that like, for example, spamming scion comsquads. if they drop in and target something important, they got to make bloody sure they also deal with 10 shootaboyz that stand nearby cause otherwise, they'll loose the squad. 20 grots? Yeah, they'll kill a couple scions but than there are still a couple left. And shootaboyz will just wreck them in mellee before taking a coupe out.
I think in a competitive setting, the only advantage orks have is durability through wounds. Let's be honest here, you're not tabling your opponent if they brought a good list. You know what? You're not tabling them even if they brought a medium list. I would argue that board control through durability is the single most important variable orks can use to win games. Gretchin are easily the best role players to maximise that variable, quite literally twice as effective as boys. It may not be fun to play, or even realistic, but I think 600 gretchin would be the best list orks could field and win the most tournament games by far.
Your idea is thatgrots can outlast anything and that the suffecient enough pool of wounds can be enough to win games on it's own.
I disagree because even 600 grots will not last long enough vs a full army.
Pask in a punisher alone will kill 34 grots on average. A razorback will kill 7 grots but a buffed razorback will kill 10+.
Doesn't seem like much but hey, they're paying off in 3-4 turns. Grots will end at turn 5.
You got to deal damage to be more durable - even if you are less durable point-for-point to begin with. But if there's no real way of lowering the incoming damage, you'll collapse. Grots can't minimise the incoming damage. They deal negligible damage themselves, they can't charge after advance and don't re-roll charge ranges, so are a turn slower at reaching combat to tie things up.
If you want to math it out I will give it a go. But I bet I can build a gretchin army with some painboys, bigmeks, and warbosses, that you will have trouble tabling without building an army specifically designed to slaughter hordes. We could even pretend there is zero line of sight issues.
But to be honest it would be pointless, the army is unrealistic (but its good, someone do it, please).
3 warbosses, 3 painboys, 3 big mek KFFs.
480 gretchin wounds, 6+, 5++, 6+++. 12 CP for morale every turn that the warbosses can't handle, I'd call them fearless.
koooaei wrote: What's that in the backfield that you need protecting that grots are better at than grot gunners?
Well you are obviously protecting against deepstrikes, so you are protecting the board. And when compared to 3ppm gretchin, grot gunners come with expensive mek gunz and are at a huge area denial disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I take KMKs instead of gretchin, but I also take other heavy armoured units so my KMKs are not the only good target for lascannons. But I think you might be intentionally ignoring the obvious answers here.
Indeed, i am. I think that grots can have a place but it in no way justifies their horrible profile. Grots would have been amazing in a necron army. Or in a SM army if they had no access to guards. But the "grots are the best unit in an ork army" is a gross overstatement. I know that none of you actually advocate that grots are THE best unit. All you're trying to do, at least as i understand it, is say that grots have an implementation and they can be good at some exact role. At which i say: Yeah, but this role is extremely niche for our army and can better be filled with boyz because, while taking less space and being a bit less durable vs s5-7 fire, they ARE better at everything else.
My logics is simple. To use grots, you take points away from the list and dump them to fill this exact niche which is fine and all but if you take the exact same amount of points and dump thim in boyz, they not only fill that niche, albeit a bit less effective in some situations, but also provide other quite important opportunities. Like being able to merge into other units when they get thinned out, being able to wreck face to small units - and i've done it countless times cause i often play vs hardcore players that like, for example, spamming scion comsquads. if they drop in and target something important, they got to make bloody sure they also deal with 10 shootaboyz that stand nearby cause otherwise, they'll loose the squad. 20 grots? Yeah, they'll kill a couple scions but than there are still a couple left. And shootaboyz will just wreck them in mellee before taking a coupe out.
I think in a competitive setting, the only advantage orks have is durability through wounds. Let's be honest here, you're not tabling your opponent if they brought a good list. You know what? You're not tabling them even if they brought a medium list. I would argue that board control through durability is the single most important variable orks can use to win games. Gretchin are easily the best role players to maximise that variable, quite literally twice as effective as boys. It may not be fun to play, or even realistic, but I think 600 gretchin would be the best list orks could field and win the most tournament games by far.
I dissagree with you. The experience I have had with (green tide) orks is that the first you might lose up to one third of your models against a shooty opponent, but as soon as you get into CC with a mayor part of your army, you can hopefully turn the match. I cannot see this happening with twice as many grots.
I dissagree with you. The experience I have had with (green tide) orks is that the first you might lose up to one third of your models against a shooty opponent, but as soon as you get into CC with a mayor part of your army, you can hopefully turn the match. I cannot see this happening with twice as many grots.
True, but turning the match and winning the game doesn't mean tabling the opponent or killing a lot of stuff. Orks boyz are all about survivability, even with the buffs a mob of boyz can only damage the high armored stuff. They can kill a dread or a rhino, nothing more.
I'm not sold on the gretchin army but don't pretend that buffed boyz are a killing machine, because they aren't. They're mostly an effective way to nullify the enemy anti tank.
hollow one wrote: If you want to math it out I will give it a go. But I bet I can build a gretchin army with some painboys, bigmeks, and warbosses, that you will have trouble tabling without building an army specifically designed to slaughter hordes. We could even pretend there is zero line of sight issues.
But to be honest it would be pointless, the army is unrealistic (but its good, someone do it, please).
3 warbosses, 3 painboys, 3 big mek KFFs.
480 gretchin wounds, 6+, 5++, 6+++. 12 CP for morale every turn that the warbosses can't handle, I'd call them fearless.
If you want, we can play a game in tabletop. I'll bring an average list - surely, i'm not here to stand on the point till i die. I love grot models.But i just don't think that this army has any chance in competitive meta with the killiness rates being so high. It can work vs something that's focused on durability or killing explictly vehicles, though.
So, I played this saturday against Blood Angels as foretold:
I won because of some rookie mistakes of my enemy and some bad Charge rolls in turn one.
My final list was:
HQ 1 Big Mek with KFF --> he did ok, but it's to diffcult to get all that boyz into the area... so, for next games I would prefer some more boyz
1 Warboss --> did his Job buffing the boyz so they could advance an Charge
2 Weirdboyz --> smiting
Elite
1 Painboy --> meh... not sure if he saved enough boyz with the Conga...
2x 5 Kommandos --> just great for coming in turn 3-4 to capture objectives
Troops
30xboyz --> killing machines... managed to take down 5 termis + 3-4 Blood guards and hold them for 3 turns (an exploding dakkajet helped a bit)
30xboyz --> running over the battlefield killing some assault troops... some tacticals...
10x gretchins --> nice Screening (not worth the Charge for my enemy so he had to deepstrike in a flank (and did not manage to pull of that Charge)). so basically, they gave me control of the Center of the table.
Heavy
Mek Gun --> shot down to early
big gun --> did ok, not great, but worth ist Points
big trakk --> the suppa-skorcha is amazing an is a bullet magnet
Flyer
Dakkajet --> another bullet magnet, barely got to shot once and luckly it exploded over my enemies.
Conclusion
Boyz are great
Gretchins seem unworthy to kill for the enemy
Kommandoz are great for Camping on objectives but rely on sheer luck to pull of a turn 1 Charge.
Range of KFF shouldn't be for the full unit
We Need a Stratagem that allows us to autoexplode Vehikels.
hollow one wrote: If you want to math it out I will give it a go. But I bet I can build a gretchin army with some painboys, bigmeks, and warbosses, that you will have trouble tabling without building an army specifically designed to slaughter hordes. We could even pretend there is zero line of sight issues.
But to be honest it would be pointless, the army is unrealistic (but its good, someone do it, please).
3 warbosses, 3 painboys, 3 big mek KFFs.
480 gretchin wounds, 6+, 5++, 6+++. 12 CP for morale every turn that the warbosses can't handle, I'd call them fearless.
I like Gretchen as a unit but this is a bit ridicules I think.
It leaves out stuff to kill enemy units effectively. It depends on CP's to keep order which is silly for a list built on the back of Grot mobs where are the runtherd's? you loose almost nothing by having them in that list.
Frankly I see this and immediately thing Assault marines and flamers and artillery. If the opposing player sticks in some snipers, it's no good boss. I can actually see an MSU army giving this a lot of trouble.
This list needs Mek guns, or aircraft and at least 40 to 50 boys to mob up to for the bubble. Heck 60 if you can hid 30 of them long enough to mob them in.
I'm not up on all the new armies so I can't say what things like Tau would do to this. The only thing this has going for it is trying to run out the clock, by which I mean being more models than the other player might be able to kill in 6 turns. Clearly time would be an issue as well.
For me 30 to 60 grot is plenty for any list but after some of this discussion I am open to spending those points on more Mek guns just to see what will happen.
Last game I Sisters of Battle rolled up on me prior to turn one and then took first turn. So I had to fight my way out of my own deployment zone. They had a lot of flamers and allied artillery in one of their detachments.
Just out of curiosity, do you have the models for this list?
Does anyone drive a Bike mounted Mek or Painboy out to catch the jumping unit in their bubble? Can end badly for the character if the jump fails.
It's a wonderful idea! I'd thought about a painboy on bike to stack with da jump and 30 Storm boys as well but the bike cost less points on the Big Mek. So I have just the one in my current list Biker KFF Mek!
But Jumping in isn't the first part of the plan for my current list due to shoota boys and expecting to be screened off from a good jump. However, Jumping a pain boy across the board or a KFF is part of my plan for later in the game should I need to.
big trakk --> the suppa-skorcha is amazing an is a bullet magnet
Big trakk with suppa-skorcha can be the devastating to your regular armies and elite armies, but i fear it would not do well against hoard armies unless you brought 2-3 and you put double skorchas on them. I know it makes them more expensive then some of use would like. Several players in my local meta hate it when I play 2 of them. Dishes out on average 16 str 6 -2 dmg 1 (each big trak will average 8 auto hits)
big trakk --> the suppa-skorcha is amazing an is a bullet magnet
Big trakk with suppa-skorcha can be the devastating to your regular armies and elite armies, but i fear it would not do well against hoard armies unless you brought 2-3 and you put double skorchas on them. I know it makes them more expensive then some of use would like. Several players in my local meta hate it when I play 2 of them. Dishes out on average 16 str 6 -2 dmg 1 (each big trak will average 8 auto hits)
Honestly I run 2 supa-skorcha big trakks because they're such big bullet magnets that I expect my opponent to focus fire on one of them in the first turn.
In response to the hordes:I think boyz are a better answer to hordes than supa skorchas. Wouldn't rule out supa-skorchas for horde usage but I don't think I'd bother with the two extra skorchas. I find that my big trakks are already big targets and an 8" range weapon requires me to shove my unit right near my opponent, allowing for them to target it easier next turn. The big trakk can take a light beating due to its 15 wounds but at 6 toughness and a 4+ save it is fragile to large volume of fire or anti armour. I've had most my success using them at range with hit and run tactics.
Does anyone drive a Bike mounted Mek or Painboy out to catch the jumping unit in their bubble? Can end badly for the character if the jump fails.
Bikes only drive 14" though, you would severely limit where you can jump, especially with the KFF needing everyone to be inside - a much more viable tactic would be jumping the mob and conga it to an a pain boy from the main force (takes 6-7 boyz to do so usually) since you are in no way obligated to keep your mob together. Once you've reached combat, you can remove those as casualties first.
Can we just agree that grots are useful, but will not likely win you games by themselves? All AbusePuppy said was that grots have value, which is hard to disagree with. FLG saying that grots are the best unit in the ork codex is hyperbole.
I also take FLG reviews with a grain of salt. FLG purpose is to sell you models and get you to go to their events, which isn't bad; but you should keep that in mind when you read their tactic articles.
So considering codex tend to remove options from the index that don’t have a model. What are the odds we lose options such as painboy on bike and big mek on bike.
gungo wrote: So considering codex tend to remove options from the index that don’t have a model. What are the odds we lose options such as painboy on bike and big mek on bike.
We might lose the option but we can still use the entry in the index, per GW's own FAQ.
Geemoney wrote: Can we just agree that grots are useful, but will not likely win you games by themselves? All AbusePuppy said was that grots have value, which is hard to disagree with. FLG saying that grots are the best unit in the ork codex is hyperbole.
I agree with the part where he said that they are model with one wound that take up space and so on. However, objective secured is almost irrelevant on them since you will never be in a situation where an equal number of gretchin and opposing non-troops are within 3" of the same objective. Either the gretchin outnumber them, or they are dead. Therefore excess grot gunners from your KMK or kannons are always superior objective holders, since they are a lot harder to kill due to their targeting limitation.
This is why I said he usually views units from a space marine/eldar view point. Both would murder for some 3 point dorks to sit on objectives.
What gretchin can do is to keep opponents from assaulting valuable things in T1 or for keeping opponents entirely out of your table half (important for ITC formats, a lot less so for everyone else) - and they are awesome at doing that.
If your local meta has neither ITC missions nor a lot of T1 assaulting from deep strike going on, there is not a lot of use for gretchin on the table that cannot be done better by boyz or artillery.
I also take FLG reviews with a grain of salt. FLG purpose is to sell you models and get you to go to their events, which isn't bad; but you should keep that in mind when you read their tactic articles.
I like the FLG reviews for codices I'm not going to buy. They pretty much provide you with all the information on a unit you need as an opponent. If your opponent decided to field grav centurions, it's nice to know their strength and weaknesses, no matter how bad they are.
Just ignore their decree on units when it comes to building your own armies.
Hey all, I posted this over in the proposed rules codex suggestions thread, but I just wanted to share it over here too in order to get some more feed back. This is a first draft document of all my suggestions for the ork codex, most of which have been pulled from ideas by posters here at dakkadakka. I'd love for some people to look it over and try and "break" the codex under these suggestions as it hasn't been play tested yet (I can't get enough games in). If you have the time, please have a look and let me know what you think, either by pm or over in the codex suggestions thread in proposed rules so we don't derail this one.
If this is too off-topic ill remove the link, I just want to get as many ork eyes on this as possible.
koooaei wrote: I totally see your point but i've had a couple games where having 3 x 10 shootas (10 in each squad of 30) won me the game because i was able to shoot down the screen and charge what's behind it. If i had only choppas i would have to waste a turn killing the screen and it would have been a death sentence. But having removed even a couple bases allowed not only to make a charge to the more important target but also pile in and disrupt the backline afterwards. So, that's why i prefer this loadout, i guess. Just my experience.
Just curious how you got this to work in a game. Assuming 10 shootas, 20 shots, 7 hits, 4 wounds, that's 2-3 models removed. If the opponent removes the least effective screening models, I don't see how this gets you through the line for a charge. What kind of screens can you remove like this?
Hey all just a quick one do mega armour nobz have a deepstrike akin to termies? If not did they in previous editions / codexes ? Seem to recall them having it.
Cheers
ManTube wrote: Hey all, I posted this over in the proposed rules codex suggestions thread, but I just wanted to share it over here too in order to get some more feed back. This is a first draft document of all my suggestions for the ork codex, most of which have been pulled from ideas by posters here at dakkadakka. I'd love for some people to look it over and try and "break" the codex under these suggestions as it hasn't been play tested yet (I can't get enough games in). If you have the time, please have a look and let me know what you think, either by pm or over in the codex suggestions thread in proposed rules so we don't derail this one.
If this is too off-topic ill remove the link, I just want to get as many ork eyes on this as possible.
Just put the link to your thread here, people interested will follow it.
One piece of advice though, before I even started reading: Re-arrange rules updates into some sort of table. Put down each unit and what you have changed for them, with an extra page for clan rules, warlord traits and powers, just like the codices are. As your rules are now they would be a pain to play-test since you would have to read a lot of text to find the relevant rules during your game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mothboi666 wrote: Hey all just a quick one do mega armour nobz have a deepstrike akin to termies? If not did they in previous editions / codexes ? Seem to recall them having it. Cheers
Some formations from the supplement that shall not be named had a chance to deep strike units. Besides that, the haven't had a natural ability to deep strike since 4th edition's codex.
koooaei wrote: I totally see your point but i've had a couple games where having 3 x 10 shootas (10 in each squad of 30) won me the game because i was able to shoot down the screen and charge what's behind it. If i had only choppas i would have to waste a turn killing the screen and it would have been a death sentence. But having removed even a couple bases allowed not only to make a charge to the more important target but also pile in and disrupt the backline afterwards. So, that's why i prefer this loadout, i guess. Just my experience.
Just curious how you got this to work in a game. Assuming 10 shootas, 20 shots, 7 hits, 4 wounds, that's 2-3 models removed. If the opponent removes the least effective screening models, I don't see how this gets you through the line for a charge. What kind of screens can you remove like this?
One game there were some guardsmen - i killed a whole squad. The charge was so important, i had to dump kmk shooting in those guards either. But shootas killed 3 or 4 models more which was decisive for the gap between the squads to appear.
Another game there were scarabs. All i needed is to remove 1 base but there was absolutely no other shooting left other than snapshooting ghaz and shootaboyz. So, that was enough. Otherwise, boyz would have to hang around a necron squad and inevitebly get wiped.
I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?
Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.
Glitcha wrote: I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?
Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.
that is already a pretty big part in making orks not trash, making sure to give them all buffs possible, though at the 6 attacks each point you enter diminishing returns unless you are pulling off a massive multicharge. 6 attacks each on 20 boyz and a nob with pk is going to wipe a squad of 5 tac marines just fine with 3 attacks each
Okay a feel a little silly, but Ghaza is just a beast. Combine with a warlord trait from the BRB he gets 7 attacks on the charge with his 2+ power klaw.
Does anyone drive a Bike mounted Mek or Painboy out to catch the jumping unit in their bubble? Can end badly for the character if the jump fails.
I really don't like turn 1 jumps of 30 boyz. You're basically sacrificing them by turning on literally all their guns. You're not adding any substantial pressure with 30 isolated boys, especially if you fail the charge (which is basically a coin flip), and if they have screens you're definitely wasting your time.
I much prefer to protect the boyz as best as possible turn 1 with LOS and cover while moving forward conservatively (out of range where possible), then turn 2 have stormboyz in range as well as a jump squad, and maybe even a footslogger squad if the deployment worked out. Then the pressure is real, you'll have HQ hanging around, maybe a warbanner and ghaz, 2 to 3 squads at once, and you did not absorb maximum damage turn 1. This makes a big mek and painboy on bike really useful, they can support your stormboyz (since stormboyz always get targeted over boyz) as you fly forward, and the HQ are protected when da jump fails. All of this is on the assumption that you are NOT bringing copious amounts of kommandos, because then I would say turn 1 jump is essential. edit: and your HQ are safe if jumping fails since kommandos are guaranteed drops.
I often turn 1 jump tankbustas into range, and somewhat isolated. It's cheaper than bringing a trukk for them, and it kind of feels like deepstrike, you almost always get 1 good shot off and then they die. The good news is if you go second you can hide them out of range and likely survive to be jumped (mortars are only 48', for example), and the better news is you can sometimes get within 24" range after jumping while also being in cover. The tankbustas are a 'must kill' unit, so if you make it awkward to shoot at them you're enjoying a good run up the field with the rest of the boyz. Best case scenario is jumping in front of a screen but shooting the tanks behind it, then charging the screen successfully. None of this requires HQ to be effective, so it avoids your 'HQ on bikes' conundrum.
Another side note, don't forget you can conga-line after a jump. You have an immense amount of flexibility with your jumps, and can be in range of whatever you want if you jump a 30man squad, that conga line will probably go back to where you jumped them from if you really wanted.
Glitcha wrote: I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?
Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.
And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s
But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.
Glitcha wrote: I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?
Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.
And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s
But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.
The banner multiplies with attacks though, while additional attacks just add up. +1 Attack will do the same amount of additional damage whether you have 2 or 5 attacks. The banner is better the more attacks you have, or in other words, bonus attacks are better if you have banner.
30 boyz will get 20 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 boyz near banner will get 25 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz will get 10 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz near banner will get 12.5 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 slugga boyz will get 20 hits from banner
30 shoota boyz will get 15 hits from banner
15 slugga boyz will get 7.5 hits from banner
15 shoota boyz will get 5 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka or with warpath will get 25 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka and with warpath will get 30 hits from banner
If you want to buff a mob of 15 sluggas with warpath and banner you would gain 12.5 hits from warpath and 7.5 from banner, for a total of 20. If you buff the same mob with Thrakka and warpath instead, you get 10+10 for a total of 20 as well.
If you buffed the same mob at 30 models, you get 25+20 for 45 additional hits for banner, while two bonus attacks would just yield 40 hits.
Whenever you have Thrakka or Warpath on a mob already, the banner is better or equal to adding the other one - unless you have a mob of shoota boyz that has lost its green tide bonus.
I played a friendly game against thousand suns the other day and decided to try the Morkanaut accompanied with the some Mek guns and boyz. I thought I played well then I manage to charge Magnus with the naut despite he had warp time. Turned out that my opponent did not really care. The morkonaut made 4 wounds on Magnus and got 15 back and was finished the following turn by a super smite, leving Mangus free to charge into whatever I had left.
I hope the cordex will give some buff to some of the Ork models. There is a huge difference in potential between the morkonaut and magnus given that they cost almost the same.
koooaei wrote: How are you protecting 30 boyz with los and cover? Never worked for me in 8-th. You must have a necromunda-level of terrain coverage.
If you play by ITC rules, the bottom level of all ruins is LOS blocking. It's a lot easier to hide units that way. It's also the reason why LOS ignoring weapons are so popular in that meta.
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Nora wrote: I played a friendly game against thousand suns the other day and decided to try the Morkanaut accompanied with the some Mek guns and boyz. I thought I played well then I manage to charge Magnus with the naut despite he had warp time. Turned out that my opponent did not really care. The morkonaut made 4 wounds on Magnus and got 15 back and was finished the following turn by a super smite, leving Mangus free to charge into whatever I had left.
I hope the cordex will give some buff to some of the Ork models. There is a huge difference in potential between the morkonaut and magnus given that they cost almost the same.
Magnus would to the same to most models in the game, even Mortarion can bite the dust when dueling him. In general, a walker without an invulnerable save should not go up against a character with a good invulnerable save and a multi-damage close combat weapons. Trying to take on a bloodthirster or a captain with thunder hammer and relic shield would probably have yielded the same sad result.
Best thing to do with Magnus is probably clobber him with a large amounts of boyz and smite him. His defenses won't help him against either.
Glitcha wrote: I was re-reading the ork index last night and I noticed something that i'm thinking might be where orks can excel. We have several ways to buff our attack characteristic. Has anyone toyed with the idea of taking all the buffs in a list to make that out?
Just off the top of my head there is a way to get a boy to have 6 attacks each if you put ghaza buff, warpath, and green tide buff on a unit.
And with the banner the boyz they all hit on 2s, the pks on 3s
But the banner is redundant if you already have the other buffs. A mob of 20+ boyz is already killy enough with 5 attacks each. The buffing characters like ghaz and the weirdboy are way more useful when they give the +1A to smaller mobs, usually units that took several casualties, like 12-15 dudes.
The banner multiplies with attacks though, while additional attacks just add up. +1 Attack will do the same amount of additional damage whether you have 2 or 5 attacks. The banner is better the more attacks you have, or in other words, bonus attacks are better if you have banner.
30 boyz will get 20 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 boyz near banner will get 25 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz will get 10 hits from warpath or Thrakka
15 boyz near banner will get 12.5 hits from warpath or Thrakka
30 slugga boyz will get 20 hits from banner
30 shoota boyz will get 15 hits from banner
15 slugga boyz will get 7.5 hits from banner
15 shoota boyz will get 5 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka or with warpath will get 25 hits from banner
30 slugga boyz charging near Thrakka and with warpath will get 30 hits from banner
If you want to buff a mob of 15 sluggas with warpath and banner you would gain 12.5 hits from warpath and 7.5 from banner, for a total of 20. If you buff the same mob with Thrakka and warpath instead, you get 10+10 for a total of 20 as well.
If you buffed the same mob at 30 models, you get 25+20 for 45 additional hits for banner, while two bonus attacks would just yield 40 hits.
Whenever you have Thrakka or Warpath on a mob already, the banner is better or equal to adding the other one - unless you have a mob of shoota boyz that has lost its green tide bonus.
Agreed but the weirdboyz and ghaz have other qualities than buffing the boyz, while the banner doesn't. Weirdboyz can cast smite and ghaz can smash in combat. Usually the buffs on big mob of boyz are wasted, unless they go against something really big. That's why I've always found the banner a bit redundant with tons of boyz. It never made the difference in the games I've played unless it buffed meganobz or kanz. I think it's another good but overcosted unit, the banner nob should be 50ish points like the painboy IMHO.
Best thing to do with Magnus is probably clobber him with a large amounts of boyz and smite him. His defenses won't help him against either.
Matches my experience against the TS lord of war. Target him with all your rokkits and KMKs, then try to assault him with boyz. Weirdboyz can help as well smiting him.
You obviously need to do more smashing with your Waagh! Banner (mine has a silly count of six killed tau hover tanks)
He also got a kustom shoota!
On a more serious note, the banner is usually buffing more than one mob and more often than not a warboss or other character with a PK. Smite is nothing but damage, as long as the banner yields more damage than the average two mortal wounds, it's superior. It's also worth to note that the banner will always work on both turns and cannot failed, be denied or blown up by daemons.
If you are already running Thrakka, you should always consider a Waagh! Banner before bringing a warpath weird boy. More likely though, you will bring neither.
If you are not running Thrakka, run Thrakka.
In my experience buffs are not needed and boyz have very little trouble killing what they charge. The only time that is no true is when they are wounding on 5's.
koooaei wrote: How are you protecting 30 boyz with los and cover? Never worked for me in 8-th. You must have a necromunda-level of terrain coverage.
If you play by ITC rules, the bottom level of all ruins is LOS blocking. It's a lot easier to hide units that way. It's also the reason why LOS ignoring weapons are so popular in that meta.
Yep, this is exactly the case. In some tournaments i've been on tables where there are big enough enclosed buildings to hold my full 30 stormboyz, I smash those games. But other tables are just random gems and trees and no LOS at all. But you know, you only need LOS against a few units the other army has usually, you gotta pick what matters.
This kind of shows how desperately regular 40k needs better terrain rules. Since ITC rules basically don't exist in my area, I got to claim cover for single mob of boyz in 8th so far, and that table had a huge ruin on the edge of my deployment zone. I have yet to claim something to be out of sight.
Yeah agreed. Since our first major 8th tournament, my play group bought MDF terrain, which is pretty solid, no windows and gak for LOS. So in the end that terrain is good regardless of ITC or not (since we like maelstrom as well sometimes).
You'd be surprised how easy it is to work with even one tower that is a block without windows.
But those blocks then looks silly. Real building have windows. We rather make new terrain rules. Sensible terrain interaction isn't that hard and besides works better for our terrain than abstract rules
On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.
To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.
Glitcha wrote: ... Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.
This has happened in my local meta, too. IG player runs two earthshaker platforms and a handful or mortars. Range is effectively infinite, and they ignore LoS.
My best success against this has been aggressively taking midfield - placing 6 KMKs right up at the edge of my deployment -and trying to win on points.But typically, my tankbustas are taken out at extreme range turn 1 or 2, then a few tanks with gatling cannons or flamers roll out and cut my infantry down, and it's just game over. It's frustratingly non-interactive.
Glitcha wrote: ... Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.
This has happened in my local meta, too. IG player runs two earthshaker platforms and a handful or mortars. Range is effectively infinite, and they ignore LoS.
My best success against this has been aggressively taking midfield - placing 6 KMKs right up at the edge of my deployment -and trying to win on points.But typically, my tankbustas are taken out at extreme range turn 1 or 2, then a few tanks with gatling cannons or flamers roll out and cut my infantry down, and it's just game over. It's frustratingly non-interactive.
Its usually why I take jets to put pressure on those back field units that don't need LOS to fire. If you get lucky, you can fly your jets right behind the artiliery pieces and put shots into the crew. No crew, no gun.
Glitcha wrote: On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.
To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.
That only protects when rhino is sideways though. Length wise zero help. Truck i'm pretty sure has zero protection. Those wheels aren't that big...
Glitcha wrote: On the mention of Terrain and LOS. I usually try to use vehicles to block LOS. Orks it a little hard to do with how our vehicles are designed. A lot easier with space marines. Im my local meta we have several ITC players and they take multiple units that don't need LOS to fire.
To protect my guys, I've started to use trukks has overwatch suppressors. In a recent game I had two trukks. One with 12 boyz in it and another with 10. I got out and mob up. 1 trukk move closer to the target for the boyz to eat over watch. The other went for a different unit. By engaging that other unit with the trukk it shut them down and force my opponent to either stay in combat with me or fall back and not fire.
That only protects when rhino is sideways though. Length wise zero help. Truck i'm pretty sure has zero protection. Those wheels aren't that big...
Didn't say it was an effective strategy, but something that could be tried.
Other than massed tank bustas, what's our best option for titan killing? I went up against a couple of Wraithknights in a tourney and all I did was get one to only about 3 wounds left.
A deff dread is gona inflict around 80% more damage than the same amount of unbuffed boyz. Though, it's super vulnerable and slow. Boyz are still better.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Other than massed tank bustas, what's our best option for titan killing? I went up against a couple of Wraithknights in a tourney and all I did was get one to only about 3 wounds left.
Massed KMKs, like 8+ of them, and smite spam through weirdboyz with 5+ of them.
The problem with dreads vs big stuff is that the dread won't reach an appopriate target 99% of the games. He's a slow melee unit and very vulnerable to anti tank. Against big stuff, damage them with KMKs, rokkits or smite and finish them off or tarpit them with boyz.
Kannons also work OK against large models, though less efficient than KMK, they are vastly better than most other options in the codex.
Thrakka can also do a ton of damage to a titanic unit, but expect him to die afterwards.
Has any one tried a Min Maxed Brigade detachment?
I'm wondering if I can fit 2 in a 2000 point list. Just for kicks, low expectation. I was planning to use Grot mobs for most if not all of my troop choices but the focus solo Mek guns and other shooting units .to build a mostly shooting list. 2 detachments may be a bit too ambitious for 2000 points. Hopefully I will have points left over for aircraft as well.
I had also thought if I could build this for 1000 points or a little less to stick in a Stompa.
This is really 3 different possible builds. I haven't run the points yet.
koooaei wrote: But why the brigade? Do you really need this CP for some reason?
I was just thinking if I were going to build out a Min Maxed list it would be reasonable, the command points are more or less so I don't run out. It will unsettle my usual Scrumgrod if I have that many compared to how ever fewer he has. I don't expect to have much in the way of combat units and will probably need to make units interrupt as well as force them not to flee. I'm not expecting to have a large amount of LD just yet.
If I field 60 grots that only 180 points and I want to add a lot of other things before I put in any Boys mobs. Granted we have only 5 stratagems right now but there are also rerolls. I'm not expecting big things I just was wondering if anyone had done this yet.
I have come to the conclusion that Ghaz is great but over priced and unfortunately too important. Now stay with me here.
Ghaz is basically a super warboss, he is WICKED important for buffing squads and helping with morale, but because of this you tend to have him in between several squads to maximize his buff bubble. This usually means that he isn't able to charge into CC as easily since doing so would mean losing his buff on one or more squads. I really feel like a CC Buff unit like Ghaz should follow the same trajectory as CC weapons. As powerful in CC as ranged weapons are at Ranged combat but significantly cheaper. Why? because for starters it takes at least 1-2 turns longer to get into range to do some damage and when he finally gets into CC it is incredibly easy and usually not that damaging to leave CC.
When I get ghaz into CC, usually after my boyz have slogged into their targets he does work, ive had him take out a Land raider, girlyman and a number of other incredibly tough units, but again, he is fairly expensive for his buffs. Girlyman is better in CC then ghaz believe it or not AND he has significantly more amazing buffs. He has a 3++ to Ghaz's 4++, has a resurrection rule, he has 1 more attack base, he is faster, has way better ballistic skill and a better ranged weapon, more wounds, and then for his Bubble buffs, Gives you 3 Extra Command Points, lets your units advance and charge FASTER (+1 inch) Lets EVERYONE reroll 1s to hit and morale tests AND allows his Ultra Smurfs to reroll hits and wounds in Ranged AND in CC. total cost? 385pts, Ghaz on the other hand gives +1 attack on the charge and only if the unit ends its charge within 6' of ghaz. He also kills D3 boyz to restore order in a unit that failed morale. Cost? 215pts
Girlyman is 170pts more and is better across the board in every way possible, Ranged, CC, Buffing and movement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ghaz to be Primarch level, honestly I don't, because we don't need 1 character that is able to be targeted with every lascannon on the table. But he should be cheaper for what he does OR he should provide more incredible buffs.
SemperMortis wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Ghaz is great but over priced and unfortunately too important. Now stay with me here.
Ghaz is basically a super warboss, he is WICKED important for buffing squads and helping with morale, but because of this you tend to have him in between several squads to maximize his buff bubble. This usually means that he isn't able to charge into CC as easily since doing so would mean losing his buff on one or more squads. I really feel like a CC Buff unit like Ghaz should follow the same trajectory as CC weapons. As powerful in CC as ranged weapons are at Ranged combat but significantly cheaper. Why? because for starters it takes at least 1-2 turns longer to get into range to do some damage and when he finally gets into CC it is incredibly easy and usually not that damaging to leave CC.
When I get ghaz into CC, usually after my boyz have slogged into their targets he does work, ive had him take out a Land raider, girlyman and a number of other incredibly tough units, but again, he is fairly expensive for his buffs. Girlyman is better in CC then ghaz believe it or not AND he has significantly more amazing buffs. He has a 3++ to Ghaz's 4++, has a resurrection rule, he has 1 more attack base, he is faster, has way better ballistic skill and a better ranged weapon, more wounds, and then for his Bubble buffs, Gives you 3 Extra Command Points, lets your units advance and charge FASTER (+1 inch) Lets EVERYONE reroll 1s to hit and morale tests AND allows his Ultra Smurfs to reroll hits and wounds in Ranged AND in CC. total cost? 385pts, Ghaz on the other hand gives +1 attack on the charge and only if the unit ends its charge within 6' of ghaz. He also kills D3 boyz to restore order in a unit that failed morale. Cost? 215pts
Girlyman is 170pts more and is better across the board in every way possible, Ranged, CC, Buffing and movement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ghaz to be Primarch level, honestly I don't, because we don't need 1 character that is able to be targeted with every lascannon on the table. But he should be cheaper for what he does OR he should provide more incredible buffs.
Firstly, this conversation belongs in proposed rules IMO. Secondly, you're comparing to a unit that was the most dominant character in the game a few months back. I personally think Ghaz is marginally over-costed when considering external balance, but well priced internally.
Well, with all the new love and flavor that DE have gotten, I think it's time to get da jump start on my Orkz!
Now, I made the decision to paint each unit a different Clan color during 7th which is gonna a be a headache, but I might go ahead and go Goff, since we know Ghaz is gonna be king.
Let's hope GW stays as creative when it's time for the Green Menace!
Hey guys I'm an aspiring Ork player and I'm curious about one thing, I'm planning on building a list around the Chinork Warkopta and I'm curious based on your experiences what you have found that works well, tactics builds ect?
SemperMortis wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Ghaz is great but over priced and unfortunately too important. Now stay with me here.
Ghaz is basically a super warboss, he is WICKED important for buffing squads and helping with morale, but because of this you tend to have him in between several squads to maximize his buff bubble. This usually means that he isn't able to charge into CC as easily since doing so would mean losing his buff on one or more squads. I really feel like a CC Buff unit like Ghaz should follow the same trajectory as CC weapons. As powerful in CC as ranged weapons are at Ranged combat but significantly cheaper. Why? because for starters it takes at least 1-2 turns longer to get into range to do some damage and when he finally gets into CC it is incredibly easy and usually not that damaging to leave CC.
When I get ghaz into CC, usually after my boyz have slogged into their targets he does work, ive had him take out a Land raider, girlyman and a number of other incredibly tough units, but again, he is fairly expensive for his buffs. Girlyman is better in CC then ghaz believe it or not AND he has significantly more amazing buffs. He has a 3++ to Ghaz's 4++, has a resurrection rule, he has 1 more attack base, he is faster, has way better ballistic skill and a better ranged weapon, more wounds, and then for his Bubble buffs, Gives you 3 Extra Command Points, lets your units advance and charge FASTER (+1 inch) Lets EVERYONE reroll 1s to hit and morale tests AND allows his Ultra Smurfs to reroll hits and wounds in Ranged AND in CC. total cost? 385pts, Ghaz on the other hand gives +1 attack on the charge and only if the unit ends its charge within 6' of ghaz. He also kills D3 boyz to restore order in a unit that failed morale. Cost? 215pts
Girlyman is 170pts more and is better across the board in every way possible, Ranged, CC, Buffing and movement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ghaz to be Primarch level, honestly I don't, because we don't need 1 character that is able to be targeted with every lascannon on the table. But he should be cheaper for what he does OR he should provide more incredible buffs.
Firstly, this conversation belongs in proposed rules IMO. Secondly, you're comparing to a unit that was the most dominant character in the game a few months back. I personally think Ghaz is marginally over-costed when considering external balance, but well priced internally.
dude, dont bother man. I've never seen anything constructive come out of that person. If you block/ignore him you're experience here will be much better.
davou wrote: dude, dont bother man. I've never seen anything constructive come out of that person. If you block/ignore him you're experience here will be much better.
I had no idea you could ignore people! edit: thanks.
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gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm an aspiring Ork player and I'm curious about one thing, I'm planning on building a list around the Chinork Warkopta and I'm curious based on your experiences what you have found that works well, tactics builds ect?
It's basically a deepstrike Trukk, don't spend any points on it's weapons where possible. I think realistically no one has used enough Chinorks to know how good they really are. If I had 5 Chinorks, I would build a mechanised list of 5 Nobz 5 ammo runts in 5 Chinorks (maybe squeeze in Ghaz instead of 1 ammo runt). I would supplement that with kannons and at least like 60 stormboyz. That list would have immense forward pressure, would deny alpha strike effectiveness, and deliver seriously high damage output. You need the kannons/stormboyz to clear out screens and find a good forward spot for your deepstrikes in case you go second.
Turns out you can't afford the kannons. But this is where I would start:
Nobz [11 PL, 140pts] . Boss Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
Nobz [11 PL, 140pts] . Boss Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
Nobz [11 PL, 140pts] . Boss Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
Nobz [11 PL, 140pts] . Boss Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
Nobz [11 PL, 140pts] . Boss Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
. Nob: Ammo Runt, Big Choppa, Slugga
+ Fast Attack +
Stormboyz [13 PL, 247pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 29x Stormboy
Stormboyz [13 PL, 247pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 29x Stormboy
hollow one wrote: It's basically a deepstrike Trukk, don't spend any points on it's weapons where possible. I think realistically no one has used enough Chinorks to know how good they really are. If I had 5 Chinorks, I would build a mechanised list of 5 Nobz 5 ammo runts in 5 Chinorks (maybe squeeze in Ghaz instead of 1 ammo runt). I would supplement that with kannons and at least like 60 stormboyz. That list would have immense forward pressure, would deny alpha strike effectiveness, and deliver seriously high damage output. You need the kannons/stormboyz to clear out screens and find a good forward spot for your deepstrikes in case you go second.
I was planning on 5 Chinorks with Boyz and 1 with Burna Boyz supported by Deff Koptas and some Wazboom Blastjets. Would an Elite force with Nobz be worth it in the Koptas?
hollow one wrote: It's basically a deepstrike Trukk, don't spend any points on it's weapons where possible. I think realistically no one has used enough Chinorks to know how good they really are. If I had 5 Chinorks, I would build a mechanised list of 5 Nobz 5 ammo runts in 5 Chinorks (maybe squeeze in Ghaz instead of 1 ammo runt). I would supplement that with kannons and at least like 60 stormboyz. That list would have immense forward pressure, would deny alpha strike effectiveness, and deliver seriously high damage output. You need the kannons/stormboyz to clear out screens and find a good forward spot for your deepstrikes in case you go second.
I was planning on 5 Chinorks with Boyz and 1 with Burna Boyz supported by Deff Koptas and some Wazboom Blastjets. Would an Elite force with Nobz be worth it in the Koptas?
it sounds awesome and I'd love to see and play against it. Hard to say what will and wont be worth it at the moment; but you can be very sure that if we end up in a good spot when our codex drops... It will be very easy to pick out who has been at it longterm and who jumped ship easy enough.
I say make your orky airforce, and laugh at any grey tides you encounter at the end of the summer.
I appreciate the advice man! I actually like the idea of looking into a force of Nobz as I never considered it before. Would Burnas with a few Spanners with Skorchas, be a worthy investment?
gmaleron wrote: I appreciate the advice man! I actually like the idea of looking into a force of Nobz as I never considered it before. Would Burnas with a few Spanners with Skorchas, be a worthy investment?
I don't mind your approach except burnas are in a bit of a bad place right now. I am not considering the chinorks as mobile dakka like you are, I just want them to deliver hard hitters. But neither of us are correct, it's untested. Play what you will find fun.
edit: i'll say bringing boyz in the chinorks is likely to be disappointing; you can't get 20+ mobs for the +1 attack, and all the morale issues are concerning. I like Nobz because you can use the limited seats in the chinork a little more efficiently. Burnas on the other hand, I'm not sure, 1 chinork with burnas will be cool if no one shoots it, but if it's only 1 chinork with burnas then I expect your opponent will shoot it first, and then all your fun is over. Remember you will not be in range the turn you drop your chinorks.
Very good point in regards to only having 1 being an issue in regards to target priority. I'm actually looking at my Chinorks to be equipped with Skorchas to help with their Shooting issue, and I'm liking the idea of Nobz I'm just thinking of Boyz at first so I have a solid base for when the Codex drops
SemperMortis wrote: I have come to the conclusion that Ghaz is great but over priced and unfortunately too important. Now stay with me here.
Ghaz is basically a super warboss, he is WICKED important for buffing squads and helping with morale, but because of this you tend to have him in between several squads to maximize his buff bubble. This usually means that he isn't able to charge into CC as easily since doing so would mean losing his buff on one or more squads. I really feel like a CC Buff unit like Ghaz should follow the same trajectory as CC weapons. As powerful in CC as ranged weapons are at Ranged combat but significantly cheaper. Why? because for starters it takes at least 1-2 turns longer to get into range to do some damage and when he finally gets into CC it is incredibly easy and usually not that damaging to leave CC.
When I get ghaz into CC, usually after my boyz have slogged into their targets he does work, ive had him take out a Land raider, girlyman and a number of other incredibly tough units, but again, he is fairly expensive for his buffs. Girlyman is better in CC then ghaz believe it or not AND he has significantly more amazing buffs. He has a 3++ to Ghaz's 4++, has a resurrection rule, he has 1 more attack base, he is faster, has way better ballistic skill and a better ranged weapon, more wounds, and then for his Bubble buffs, Gives you 3 Extra Command Points, lets your units advance and charge FASTER (+1 inch) Lets EVERYONE reroll 1s to hit and morale tests AND allows his Ultra Smurfs to reroll hits and wounds in Ranged AND in CC. total cost? 385pts, Ghaz on the other hand gives +1 attack on the charge and only if the unit ends its charge within 6' of ghaz. He also kills D3 boyz to restore order in a unit that failed morale. Cost? 215pts
Girlyman is 170pts more and is better across the board in every way possible, Ranged, CC, Buffing and movement. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ghaz to be Primarch level, honestly I don't, because we don't need 1 character that is able to be targeted with every lascannon on the table. But he should be cheaper for what he does OR he should provide more incredible buffs.
Firstly, this conversation belongs in proposed rules IMO. Secondly, you're comparing to a unit that was the most dominant character in the game a few months back. I personally think Ghaz is marginally over-costed when considering external balance, but well priced internally.
No it belongs here because I am saying that he isn't really worth taking since his CC abilities are usually wasted for a full turn longer. you can get more mileage out of a regular warboss with the relic BC and a couple of Weirdboyz. Ghaz is great, but he does not synergize at all with the list because he has to stay so close to units in order to give his buff that he isn't able to get into CC until at least 1 turn after the boyz unless you are using him to escort 1-2 Mobz, and then you are under utilizing his buff bubble. I do love using him though since he is a beast and just wallops everything he faces in CC...except for some hardcore units like Primarchs.
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ballzonya wrote: Spikey bits posted saying there is a rumor about a prime ork gaz model? Anybody hear or see it. Also lots of new kits
I have heard that rumor for a bit, I actually mentioned that in my post on the last page that I don't want Ghaz to get Primork status unless our entire codex gets a much needed boost. I don't know about your META but in mine, if he lost his special character rule that says he can't be targeted then he would probably die turn 1 or 2 at the most due to the lists I face which feature A LOT of anti-vehicle/MC weapons. So if we got some good buffs which made our other big models worth taking (Battlewagonz, Trukkz, Nauts, Stompa, Kanz, Dreadz) then it might work, otherwise its just going to cause him to die early from being a bullet magnet.
Honestly if ghaz gets beefed up to prime status he will likely get tougher to kill (higher toughness, more wounds, better save, built in fnp) I would love for him to get 10+ wounds and be a huge bullet magnet for the rest of our army. Best thing he can can be is a giant morty.
I doubt it’s goig to happen though... orks are not far off and we haven’t heard anything about a large ork monster model...ffs sisters are in early design stage which means orks models for the summer/fall are likely in preproduction.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, with all the new love and flavor that DE have gotten, I think it's time to get da jump start on my Orkz!
Now, I made the decision to paint each unit a different Clan color during 7th which is gonna a be a headache, but I might go ahead and go Goff, since we know Ghaz is gonna be king.
Let's hope GW stays as creative when it's time for the Green Menace!
Hah i'm in same boat. 4 clans worth of boyz. Need like 200 more to have enough to field 2-3 different clan battalions, maybe more even. Blood axes and snakebites i decided to post pone.
Too bad no ork fan in design team which is a worry
I meant to ask the other day, does any one run several Biker bosses in a list now days? I mean something like 4 or 5 Warbosses on Bikes screened by trukks or something like that?
Too bad no ork fan in design team which is a worry
How hard would it be to walk "down the halls" of GW and look for a veteran ork player who isnt a dolt to consult with on ork rules design?? As a pillar faction in warhammer since it's incarnation.. you mean to tell me (and I dont mean YOU, I just mean in general) there are NO GW vets who are also ORK vets in "shouting" distance? Or is the design team that confident/ballsy to just do it themselves?
Too bad no ork fan in design team which is a worry
How hard would it be to walk "down the halls" of GW and look for a veteran ork player who isnt a dolt to consult with on ork rules design?? As a pillar faction in warhammer since it's incarnation.. you mean to tell me (and I dont mean YOU, I just mean in general) there are NO GW vets who are also ORK vets in "shouting" distance? Or is the design team that confident/ballsy to just do it themselves?
Rather, the people posting here are prone to hyperbole and assumptions.
No one here has a hand in game design, and if they did they wouldn't be saying anything, let alone anything so positively negative at all times.
warhead01 wrote: I meant to ask the other day, does any one run several Biker bosses in a list now days? I mean something like 4 or 5 Warbosses on Bikes screened by trukks or something like that?
The issue is that a warboss isn't actually good at killing stuff that matters. You get Zardsnark and one with the relic Choppa, but all others are stuck with PK+Attack Squig for combat, which is neither good at killing hordes nor at killing vehicles.
The other problem is that they simply don't have an invulnerable save. Plasma, lascannons and the odd krak grenade here and there will spell doom for them, as will any character or walker with a multi-damage close combat weapon.
Too bad no ork fan in design team which is a worry
How hard would it be to walk "down the halls" of GW and look for a veteran ork player who isnt a dolt to consult with on ork rules design?? As a pillar faction in warhammer since it's incarnation.. you mean to tell me (and I dont mean YOU, I just mean in general) there are NO GW vets who are also ORK vets in "shouting" distance? Or is the design team that confident/ballsy to just do it themselves?
I think we agreed a couple of pages ago that this thread should focus on how to play the current ork index army. There are plenty of threads about GW's design process (or the lack thereof) on dakkadakka already.
I just cant wait for this codex to come out so either one of two things can happen. Either It is good (not even OP just not 7th edition codex bad) and I can finally play 40k again.. or it is bad and I can just paint/convert orks and focus my limited game time playing on Age of Sigmar. Which is really saying something if you look at the army balance of AoS......
Too bad no ork fan in design team which is a worry
How hard would it be to walk "down the halls" of GW and look for a veteran ork player who isnt a dolt to consult with on ork rules design?? As a pillar faction in warhammer since it's incarnation.. you mean to tell me (and I dont mean YOU, I just mean in general) there are NO GW vets who are also ORK vets in "shouting" distance? Or is the design team that confident/ballsy to just do it themselves?
Rather, the people posting here are prone to hyperbole and assumptions.
No one here has a hand in game design, and if they did they wouldn't be saying anything, let alone anything so positively negative at all times.
Stick your head in sand if you wish but if you actually would bother to check after only ork player in studio design team left for greener waagghs orks have not got single good codex...Coincidence? Meanwhile eldar and IG who have avid fans in studio keep getting steadily good codexes...Coincidence?
Unsurprisingly if you have passion for the project you do better job at it.
Stick your head in sand if you wish but if you actually would bother to check after only ork player in studio design team left for greener waagghs orks have not got single good codex...Coincidence? Meanwhile eldar and IG who have avid fans in studio keep getting steadily good codexes...Coincidence?
Unsurprisingly if you have passion for the project you do better job at it.
Yep, I'm being daft obviously. The only logical thing here is a conspiracy on the part of the design team (none of which are ever mentioned by name) having heinous and nefarious motives along with an un-named hero having been the only saving grace until his depature.
Welp, Deldar look like THE anti-ork army. Just watched the video from tabletop tactics. That 2000pt army they fielded looks extremely difficult for Orks to deal with. A crap ton of maneuverable firepower that doesn't really have to worry about their weakness (low durability esp. vs shooting) because of the low base BS of Orks.
Bring a bunch of boyz (not what I use but the best way to run Orks at them moment): they just dance around your army and whittle them down.
Bring some bigger stuff (like I do): dark lances will tear them to shreds.
I was trying to figure out if there was any way for Orks to deal with them while watching the video.
Also I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being whinny; I was just thinking Deldar definitely have the paper for the Orks' rock (or rokk rather).
GreatGranpapy wrote: Welp, Deldar look like THE anti-ork army. Just watched the video from tabletop tactics. That 2000pt army they fielded looks extremely difficult for Orks to deal with. A crap ton of maneuverable firepower that doesn't really have to worry about their weakness (low durability esp. vs shooting) because of the low base BS of Orks.
Bring a bunch of boyz (not what I use but the best way to run Orks at them moment): they just dance around your army and whittle them down.
Bring some bigger stuff (like I do): dark lances will tear them to shreds.
I was trying to figure out if there was any way for Orks to deal with them while watching the video.
Also I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being whinny; I was just thinking Deldar definitely have the paper for the Orks' rock (or rokk rather).
Believe it or not, this was the case before their codex dropped. If you had played a competitive DE army earlier than last week you would have hated their splinter cannons and maneuverability. They were kept under wraps due to being so fragile, any shooty army just decimated them turn 1. I think they are still very fragile and will still fall over to alpha strike shooty armies, so hopefully those armies will keep DE in check for us. If you're not bringing stormboyz, you will have very little chance against DE.
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Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I just cant wait for this codex to come out so either one of two things can happen. Either It is good (not even OP just not 7th edition codex bad) and I can finally play 40k again.. or it is bad and I can just paint/convert orks and focus my limited game time playing on Age of Sigmar. Which is really saying something if you look at the army balance of AoS......
Play flavour of the month all you want. You missed the Ork hay-days when there were no codexes. We were doing well, certainly above average. Now we are clearly lagging behind. Do you mind keeping these sort of complaints to the "proposed rules" section of the forums? Thanks.
Huh, honestly didnt really know the state of deldar before their 'dex. Makes sense they would be strong against orks from the beggining though. Their theme as an army seams to be the antithesis of what an Ork can deal with. Honestly I think that's kind of fine. With so many factions it makes sense some would hard counter others. It's just a shame it's more of a case of what faction is strongest than how to deal with a given army.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Huh, honestly didnt really know the state of deldar before their 'dex. Makes sense they would be strong against orks from the beggining though. Their theme as an army seams to be the antithesis of what an Ork can deal with. Honestly I think that's kind of fine. With so many factions it makes sense some would hard counter others. It's just a shame it's more of a case of what faction is strongest than how to deal with a given army.
Yep, perfect balance is impossible. I would build a TAC list that leans into trukks and stormboyz if you're planning on beating DE, but honestly I wouldn't expect it. If they bring all/most dark lances though, you have a good chance with green tide to just survive. They can not fight you without keeping their distance and shooting IMO.
I play both armies and I can tell you guys that even the strongest index drukhari list didn't have the slightest chance against a greentide. Drukhari needed more tools to deal with.
Note that poisoned shots hits on 3s and wound on 4s with no AP. SM can kill 60 orks per turn by shooting, drukhari can't. Even with the new codex.
Now the leaks are appealing and it's confirmed that drukhari got massive points reductions, and after all they received basically nothing with chapter approved, but I don't see drukhari as an overpowered army yet, and orks (I mean green tides only) would still be an hard counter for them. So I have hope for a good orks codex in the future
Bring a bunch of boyz (not what I use but the best way to run Orks at them moment): they just dance around your army and whittle them down.
Bring some bigger stuff (like I do): dark lances will tear them to shreds.
I was trying to figure out if there was any way for Orks to deal with them while watching the video.
Use Da Jump, stormboyz and kommandos. Their vehicles are not like AM or SM tanks, we can melt them with our S4 hits with basically no effort. Their HQs are still the worst in the entire game. Still no psykers unless they bring allies. Their flyers are extremely cheap now and very effective but they basically are anti tank oriented, not a big deal for a green tide.
You can still catch them running sheer numbers. A regular de list is mostly focused on killing tanks and uses speed to avoid infantry. However, Greentide has SO much infantry that ater a couple turns, there is no way to run. They can't zip around 48" a turn like they used to in previous editions. And DE anti-horde firepower is not that amazing, really.
Now, if you're bringing mixed or mech list you will likely find them to be close to unbeatable but that's mostly attributed to the fact that mixed lists don't work on the whole and ork mech is too weak vs even remotely effective anti-tank. And DE have never had problems with tanks.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm an aspiring Ork player and I'm curious about one thing, I'm planning on building a list around the Chinork Warkopta and I'm curious based on your experiences what you have found that works well, tactics builds ect?
An alternative use for the big copta is as a substitute for a trukk. I have tried to have a signle copta that contains all characters, in order to reduce the numbers of drops and hence get the +1 on the roll off. Here I run it with the skorcha and deff guns.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Welp, Deldar look like THE anti-ork army. Just watched the video from tabletop tactics. That 2000pt army they fielded looks extremely difficult for Orks to deal with. A crap ton of maneuverable firepower that doesn't really have to worry about their weakness (low durability esp. vs shooting) because of the low base BS of Orks.
Bring a bunch of boyz (not what I use but the best way to run Orks at them moment): they just dance around your army and whittle them down.
Bring some bigger stuff (like I do): dark lances will tear them to shreds.
I was trying to figure out if there was any way for Orks to deal with them while watching the video.
Also I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being whinny; I was just thinking Deldar definitely have the paper for the Orks' rock (or rokk rather).
Believe it or not, this was the case before their codex dropped. If you had played a competitive DE army earlier than last week you would have hated their splinter cannons and maneuverability. They were kept under wraps due to being so fragile, any shooty army just decimated them turn 1. I think they are still very fragile and will still fall over to alpha strike shooty armies, so hopefully those armies will keep DE in check for us. If you're not bringing stormboyz, you will have very little chance against DE.
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Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I just cant wait for this codex to come out so either one of two things can happen. Either It is good (not even OP just not 7th edition codex bad) and I can finally play 40k again.. or it is bad and I can just paint/convert orks and focus my limited game time playing on Age of Sigmar. Which is really saying something if you look at the army balance of AoS......
Play flavour of the month all you want. You missed the Ork hay-days when there were no codexes. We were doing well, certainly above average. Now we are clearly lagging behind. Do you mind keeping these sort of complaints to the "proposed rules" section of the forums? Thanks.
Hahah ok fun police. Chill the eff out. I have been an ork player for going on two decades, so take your "I'm to cool for school" attitude and stuff it. 40k is not a good game right now. The only thing keeping me interested is my roughly 8000 points of orks. So flavor of the month? Hardly. AoS is simply a much better game right now.
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GreatGranpapy wrote: Welp, Deldar look like THE anti-ork army. Just watched the video from tabletop tactics. That 2000pt army they fielded looks extremely difficult for Orks to deal with. A crap ton of maneuverable firepower that doesn't really have to worry about their weakness (low durability esp. vs shooting) because of the low base BS of Orks.
Bring a bunch of boyz (not what I use but the best way to run Orks at them moment): they just dance around your army and whittle them down.
Bring some bigger stuff (like I do): dark lances will tear them to shreds.
I was trying to figure out if there was any way for Orks to deal with them while watching the video.
Also I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being whinny; I was just thinking Deldar definitely have the paper for the Orks' rock (or rokk rather).
Dark eldar are a tough go for orks because they can out maneuver hordes (which is the only viable strategy right now) with the exception of da jump. I thought of maybe using several kommandos as a way to force units to into moving outside of their preferred movement paths and hopefully close the gap with a few good charges. Also a couple tank bustas squads should WRECK their transports.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm an aspiring Ork player and I'm curious about one thing, I'm planning on building a list around the Chinork Warkopta and I'm curious based on your experiences what you have found that works well, tactics builds ect?
Chinork Warkoptas are trukks that aren't open-topped, units can't disembark from the turn they come down, and can barely shoot (5+ going to 6+ if they move).
In short, they're not worth it imo.
If they were open-topped, I'd see a use for them as a deepstriking gunboat, to get Flash Gitz to where you need them; but without that... it'll deep-strike, do no shooting damage (even with it's rattla kannon), and give the units inside a 1/6 chance to lose a model when it explodes - after which, the squad inside will get shot up as well.
Disembarking before moving is dumb; at least, it punishes armies that use transports for assault.
It differs in one crucial aspect. Despite the entire model not actually having either sides or a top, the Chinork does not have the Open Topped special rule, so you can't shoot out of it. This limits a lot of the potential applications for the unit sadly.
Blackie wrote: I play both armies and I can tell you guys that even the strongest index drukhari list didn't have the slightest chance against a greentide. Drukhari needed more tools to deal with.
Note that poisoned shots hits on 3s and wound on 4s with no AP. SM can kill 60 orks per turn by shooting, drukhari can't. Even with the new codex.
Now the leaks are appealing and it's confirmed that drukhari got massive points reductions, and after all they received basically nothing with chapter approved, but I don't see drukhari as an overpowered army yet, and orks (I mean green tides only) would still be an hard counter for them. So I have hope for a good orks codex in the future
This is twice now where you and I have had almost exactly opposite opinions on the success of orks vs a specific type of list. We must just have different experiences or play differently. I've played against DE once in a tournament and multiple times vs a friend who owns a list, and I've got to tell you my green-tide has lost every game. Sure he did not necessarily kill me, but I did almost zero damage, their entire army has the fly keyword and are quite frankly too fast. You never catch up to the army, it feels utterly hopeless. At least that has been my experience.
It differs in one crucial aspect. Despite the entire model not actually having either sides or a top, the Chinork does not have the Open Topped special rule, so you can't shoot out of it. This limits a lot of the potential applications for the unit sadly.
Well sure it doesn't have open topped.... but as a transport, heavy armoured unit, that protects greenskins until they can get close to the enemy, they are pretty much the same.
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Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Hahah ok fun police. Chill the eff out. I have been an ork player for going on two decades, so take your "I'm to cool for school" attitude and stuff it. 40k is not a good game right now. The only thing keeping me interested is my roughly 8000 points of orks. So flavor of the month? Hardly. AoS is simply a much better game right now.
Look I don't mean to make you angry, but if you're down to complain can you just take it elsewhere? I'm glad you got 8k points, and lets discuss which 2k of them is best to bring right now. If you want to play AoS and sh!t all over 40k from the side lines, I don't particularly want to hear it. That's all.
hollow one wrote: Well sure it doesn't have open topped.... but as a transport, heavy armoured unit, that protects greenskins until they can get close to the enemy, they are pretty much the same.
You can use a Trukk or Battlewagon as a firebase however, for units like Flash Gitz, Lootas or Tankbustas. Chinorks with their high speed and Fly would actually be great at this role, but the lack of Open Topped means they can't do it.
Yeah, we agree. It is a shame. But I think using them as a quick delivery system is still something worth considering. No one is really talking about them, even after the CA point reduction.
Disembarking before moving is dumb; at least, it punishes armies that use transports for assault.
Then again do we want to go back to the bad old days of 3rd ed rhino rushesh...Those days were not liked for a reason.
You could disembark after moving in 5th, which is the most liked edition on dakkadakka right after 8th according to a poll I did.
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hollow one wrote: Yeah, we agree. It is a shame. But I think using them as a quick delivery system is still something worth considering. No one is really talking about them, even after the CA point reduction.
What would you deliver though? We kind of lack units comparable to imperial melta or plasma units that can blow something sky high if they get close enough. The next best thing is tank bustas, but with 24" range a trukk is good enough for them.
Disembarking before moving is dumb; at least, it punishes armies that use transports for assault.
Then again do we want to go back to the bad old days of 3rd ed rhino rushesh...Those days were not liked for a reason.
You could disembark after moving in 5th, which is the most liked edition on dakkadakka right after 8th according to a poll I did.
Yes. Could you charge though? That's the point. In 3rd ed you could quite literally rhino rush straight into combat 1st turn reliably. Not even dice roll like 8th ed with deep strikers. Flat out charge up.
If rattler cannons were assault instead of heavy, they would make for a decent harassment unit, similar to blight drones. But no matter how I look at them, I can't find a way to use them. If I had to use them, I would probably deep strike them on some objectives outside of my deployment zone and have them sit on them like nurglings with a deff gun and a big shoota.
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tneva82 wrote: Yes. Could you charge though? That's the point. In 3rd ed you could quite literally rhino rush straight into combat 1st turn reliably. Not even dice roll like 8th ed with deep strikers. Flat out charge up.
Uhm, yes? Orks could charge from transports that didn't have the 'ard case. That included trukks, battlewagons, chinorks, looted wagons and all three versions of kill tanks.
Well yeah that was for specific vehicles which were designed for it. But now we are talking about game wide change. If you allow disembar after movement that includes stuff like rhino's etc. Basically everything. so we are back at 3rd ed with it's brokenly silly rhino rush 1st turn quaranteed charges.
Maybe just give the rule to open topped vehicles? Like orks or DE ones? Makes a lot of sense for close combat oriented army like those ones that are made of paper things.
Blackie wrote: I play both armies and I can tell you guys that even the strongest index drukhari list didn't have the slightest chance against a greentide. Drukhari needed more tools to deal with.
Note that poisoned shots hits on 3s and wound on 4s with no AP. SM can kill 60 orks per turn by shooting, drukhari can't. Even with the new codex.
Now the leaks are appealing and it's confirmed that drukhari got massive points reductions, and after all they received basically nothing with chapter approved, but I don't see drukhari as an overpowered army yet, and orks (I mean green tides only) would still be an hard counter for them. So I have hope for a good orks codex in the future
This is twice now where you and I have had almost exactly opposite opinions on the success of orks vs a specific type of list. We must just have different experiences or play differently. I've played against DE once in a tournament and multiple times vs a friend who owns a list, and I've got to tell you my green-tide has lost every game. Sure he did not necessarily kill me, but I did almost zero damage, their entire army has the fly keyword and are quite frankly too fast. You never catch up to the army, it feels utterly hopeless. At least that has been my experience.
That's the interesting thing about gaming outside the tournaments circuit, the specific meta does matter
When I play the green tide the other drukhari player in my area usually doesn't stand a chance, you may not catch him easily, and with kommandos, deepstriking boyz and stormboyz you should do it, but he can't really kill a lot of stuff. A single round of combat can wreck a vehicle, especially venoms, even with non buffed boyz. Hundreds of points are always invested in anti tank, even in a TAC list, sometimes even 50% of the budget. Who cares about catching ravagers and flyers, those are 600+ points that kill 10-15 orks in a turn at most.
On the other hand when I field my drukhari I've always struggled a lot against the green tides myself. Even bringing the max poison shots I can field.
The point about index drukhari is that even a TAC list that also tries to deal with hordes always has a very effective anti tank, which we can't destroy in turns 1-2 but it can melt 500+ points of orks armored stuff in turn 1. My orks lists with transports do decently basically because my meta is anti hordes obsessed, but against things like 30 dark reapers, 15 lascannons with re-rolls plus plasma spam, AM anti tank, or even the 20-30 lances/blasters that drukhari can field (and many TAC lists have that) only the green tide stands a chance.
I played the weirdest game, I decided to take out my speed freakz for no other reason then nostalgia. 30 Bikers, bunch of stormboyz and Deffkoptas and some Trukkz filled with bustas. Played against a Chaos gunline.....i conceded at the end of his 2nd shooting phase
Warbikers are not durable in the slightest, koptas are so heavily over priced that I couldn't even take them all, and Trukkz....if they were 1/3rd the cost i could justify taking them in a competitive game.
Lots of laughs and banter though so that was fun, but wow....speedfreakz are dead until the codex drops. Ohh one thing, the most fun I had that game was bombing his heavy support infantry with my koptas, so much fun
SemperMortis wrote: I played the weirdest game, I decided to take out my speed freakz for no other reason then nostalgia. 30 Bikers, bunch of stormboyz and Deffkoptas and some Trukkz filled with bustas. Played against a Chaos gunline.....i conceded at the end of his 2nd shooting phase
Warbikers are not durable in the slightest, koptas are so heavily over priced that I couldn't even take them all, and Trukkz....if they were 1/3rd the cost i could justify taking them in a competitive game.
Lots of laughs and banter though so that was fun, but wow....speedfreakz are dead until the codex drops. Ohh one thing, the most fun I had that game was bombing his heavy support infantry with my koptas, so much fun
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about this fight, everyone is soo dismissive of bikes and koptas because they are soo overpriced nobody really talks about them here.
-Did you have a KFF Big Mek Bike? Do you think it would have helped to have one?
-Are Stormboyz a screen in this list? Do you think you'd have done better if you brought less or more of them?
-How many tankbustas per trukk, were they the top priority, and did they produce any meaningful damage?
Has anyone had any success in running the Meka Dread? And do you think the Big Zzappa might be worth taking? Just finishing converting one of these, and currently I have only the Rattler Kannon and I was wondering would it make sense to bother WYSIWYGging the Zzappa or not.
Zodfrey wrote: Has anyone had any success in running the Meka Dread? And do you think the Big Zzappa might be worth taking? Just finishing converting one of these, and currently I have only the Rattler Kannon and I was wondering would it make sense to bother WYSIWYGging the Zzappa or not.
Its awesome! Meka dread is BS4+. Big zzapa is worth it since it has the potential to do mortal wound damage.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys I'm an aspiring Ork player and I'm curious about one thing, I'm planning on building a list around the Chinork Warkopta and I'm curious based on your experiences what you have found that works well, tactics builds ect?
Chinork Warkoptas are trukks that aren't open-topped, units can't disembark from the turn they come down, and can barely shoot (5+ going to 6+ if they move).
In short, they're not worth it imo.
If they were open-topped, I'd see a use for them as a deepstriking gunboat, to get Flash Gitz to where you need them; but without that... it'll deep-strike, do no shooting damage (even with it's rattla kannon), and give the units inside a 1/6 chance to lose a model when it explodes - after which, the squad inside will get shot up as well.
Disembarking before moving is dumb; at least, it punishes armies that use transports for assault.
I'm actually looking at arming them with Skorchas to help with their poor BS and actually just fly them up the table supported by Wazboom Jets and Stormboyz. Lack of Open Top is disappointing but I'm hoping it will be rectified or I'll just have to adapt and overcome.
SemperMortis wrote: I played the weirdest game, I decided to take out my speed freakz for no other reason then nostalgia. 30 Bikers, bunch of stormboyz and Deffkoptas and some Trukkz filled with bustas. Played against a Chaos gunline.....i conceded at the end of his 2nd shooting phase
Warbikers are not durable in the slightest, koptas are so heavily over priced that I couldn't even take them all, and Trukkz....if they were 1/3rd the cost i could justify taking them in a competitive game.
Lots of laughs and banter though so that was fun, but wow....speedfreakz are dead until the codex drops. Ohh one thing, the most fun I had that game was bombing his heavy support infantry with my koptas, so much fun
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about this fight, everyone is soo dismissive of bikes and koptas because they are soo overpriced nobody really talks about them here.
-Did you have a KFF Big Mek Bike? Do you think it would have helped to have one?
-Are Stormboyz a screen in this list? Do you think you'd have done better if you brought less or more of them?
-How many tankbustas per trukk, were they the top priority, and did they produce any meaningful damage?
No KFF Big Mek on Bike for the sole reason that I don't own one. But even if I did, my bikers would have been toast anyway as they got hit by a lot of 2-3Dmg weapons that simply reduced my save to 5+ and killed both wounds while also wounding on 3s....and they literally make their points back for every bike they kill because they are so heavily over priced (27).
The Stormboyz were as always the all star unit, and yes they would have done even better if I had brought more, but that is because a stormboy is a slightly more expensive boy model so obviously it will do well.
Tankbustas were a dud. I didn't even get to shoot before they all died to enemy firepower (my opponent was castled) and even if they had shot they wouldn't have accomplished a whole hell of a lot against his list. As for his top priority? the bikes died in droves first and then the trukkz with bustas and by that point my Stormboyz charged and did some good work before finally being overwhelmed.
Like I said though, I knew i had no chance of winning with this list, I just love my speed freakz and I haven't been able to play them at all this edition because of how bad every FA choice is (except stormboyz). You get to a point where placing 150+ infantry models on the board gets really boring and tedious, I hit that point and wanted to change it up.
Zodfrey wrote: Has anyone had any success in running the Meka Dread? And do you think the Big Zzappa might be worth taking? Just finishing converting one of these, and currently I have only the Rattler Kannon and I was wondering would it make sense to bother WYSIWYGging the Zzappa or not.
I've been experimenting with a Meka Dread lately. I mostly run the Rattler Kannon which feels really good against heavy infantry. I've only played one game with the Big Zzappa and it's cool but can't say much for it yet. I love the Mega Charga, it's better than advancing and has allowed me to position the Meka Dread really well.
While we're talking about FW units, I'm attempting to sculpt a Gargantuan Squiggoth, does anyone have any experience with them? I'm mostly keen for the ability to shoot while in melee but the supa lobbas and mortal wound potential look incredible. Points wise it looks viable to run in 1000+ points games but my main concern is how much hate it'll attract from anti armour.
Well I have hopes for the bikes (and orks in general) after I've seen the drukhari codex. Their bikes went from 30ppm to 19ppm, plus they gained other powerful shenanigans and buffs.
In response to the earlier posts about what to do with Ghazzy (not the rumored super Ghazzy), I found throwing him in a transport with nobs worked very well, either battlewagon or killtank.
If you keep a mix of nob gear and ammo runts plus Ghaz and warbanner you get a fairly flexible kill crew. I just found it was important to have other distracting things on the table to draw hate from that squad early game like jumped boyz mek guns and things that people universally hate (lootas/Tankbustas). Spread the anger i suppose. I have not had a game yet that Ghaz did not perform well in.
Since boyz seem to be the core that can't be gotten away from, can I ask what kind of formations people put them in and why? For example, do you just blob them up because you don't want to take the time to move them, do you spread them across the board in a single line, or do you form a 15 man line two ranks deep?
Rismonite wrote: If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about this fight, everyone is soo dismissive of bikes and koptas because they are soo overpriced nobody really talks about them here.
-Did you have a KFF Big Mek Bike? Do you think it would have helped to have one?
-Are Stormboyz a screen in this list? Do you think you'd have done better if you brought less or more of them?
-How many tankbustas per trukk, were they the top priority, and did they produce any meaningful damage?
Bikes aren't good at all *however* I have managed to win a few 1k games using the following list that I think is really non-competitive (I had a lot of luck and went first );
Outrider Detachment-
Zhadsnark
3 x 3 Warbikers (1 Nob had PK, 1 Nob had BC and 1 Nob had Choppa)
Battalion Detachment-
Trukk with Rokkit
5 x Nobz (1 PK, 2 BC, Skorcha, 2 Choppas, all ammo runts)
Big Mek KFF w. Headwoppa's Kill Choppa (in Trukk with Nobz)
Big Mek KFF w. Rokkit
3 x 10 Boyz (1 Nob had PK, 1 Nob had BC and 1 Nob had Choppa, Rokkit Boy in one squad)
This isn't a good list at all, but it is a hell of a lot more fun than slogging a billion Boyz around the board IMO.
Bikes did OK to be fair, they quickly reacted to deployment shenanigans and were scary enough to draw fire away from the Boyz. You've got to hide them and put them out of LOS to use them best. They are so fragile but they have the fear factor and T5 throws a lot of people off, for some odd reason. Also quick Klaws and BC are never a bad thing.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Since boyz seem to be the core that can't be gotten away from, can I ask what kind of formations people put them in and why? For example, do you just blob them up because you don't want to take the time to move them, do you spread them across the board in a single line, or do you form a 15 man line two ranks deep?
I have movement trays that stack the boys 5 across and 2 deep. So these rectangular squads of 10 can be strung out (15x2) or be made deep (5x6), and that's pretty much the only way I play em. In the end you're constantly restricted by the terrain anyway. I typically want them as 15x2 for greatest surface area of hits. But 5x6 works when you have multiple squads hitting at the same time, or you are stringing boyz back for buffs (warbanner, ghaz, etc.).
When it comes to density: Almost always as packed together as possible. The one exception might be a squad of boyz you plan to deep strike later in the game. That squad I sometimes spread out to max coherency all over the table. It allows my weirdboy to move around and still be in range to cast Da Jump, but also controls a lot of board space to deny deepstrikes and hang on objectives (however that all disappears once you jump em).
Played my first game of orks in 8th edition, and they cleaned up some world eaters! Big choppa nobz do work! The world eater's player got over eager (i'd got in his head all week in preparation ) and I was able to surround his main advance (5 squads of berzerkers in rhinos) COMPLETELY surrounding them with advancing and charging, and locking them down. I was able to bring in nobz and over the course of two and half rounds completely chewed up all 5 rhinos, kharn, a dark apostle, and all the berzerkers. My orks were contantly consolidating into combat, making it so they counted as charging the next round of combat (I hope we did that right!). The berzerks lost tons of models do to their rhinos dying, and not being able to place all their models down, and then being charged by boyz, kans, nobz, a squiggoth, and warboss'.
It was a massacre. A fitting first game for the return of my orks. My favorite and most fun army!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nob squads are also dead killy. They can dish out the pain, but can't take much in return. Big choppa nobz were fantastic in my game, and I plan on using them quite a bit.
I just hope that the upcoming codex does all the klanz, especially the snakebites justice. More squigz, grots please!
To figure out if a model is charging or not is really simple in 8th: If you rolled 2d6 for them and moved them during your charge phase, they are charging. If you didn't roll dice or they failed their charge move, they are not. No exceptions to this rule, as far as I am aware, there is nothing in the game that lets you "count as charging".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: So you were NOT charging yet you used rules as if DID charge? Sorry but that's really bad. Never assume things work for you when they might not
Eh, they also did disembarking wrong. Unlike in previous editions you remove the dead transport after you have disembarked the models inside. So the passengers of those surrounded rhinos would have been dead anyways.
The only difference would have been that the rhinos would have gotten to attack before some of the boyz.
Keep in mind that if you pile into units that you haven't chanrged initially, you can't strike them, but units can strike you in return. So, if you, for example, managed to wreck a rhino and than pile in to zerkers that fell out of this rhino, you can't strike the zerkers but take return hits.
So, the best bet is to destroy a transport while leaving no room for berzerkers to get out of the vehicle. He has to disembark first and only than remove a rhino. So, if it's completely surrounded and gets wrecked, everything inside dies.
Thinking of getting 2 more battlewagons. Already have tons of infantry with my ~6k+ orks but only one battlewagon. Not most competive options but hey I don't need to play super competive games all the time and one can hope codex upgrades them a bit. Anyway I currently have one with just two big shootas. I don't want to spam same configuration n+ times so would like all vehicles generally be different.
So I think first one is easy enough. Deth rolla and closed top for tough transport for in your face. 180 pts. Would wrecking ball be any good addition? Only 3 pts and would give some ability to try to clear hordes. It's slightly better against 6+ and maybe 5+ guys as it gets more hits in than deth roll.
For second one I figured I would actually use some heavy guns. Kill kannon + lobba was current idea. I suspect shooting battlewagons are the worst kind but how badly I'm handicapping myself? And for this should I just settle for those 2 or would adding 4 big shootas be dealable? Rokkits are too expensive for sure.
For 2nd open topped and use it as shooting base or 'ard case for that T8?
Yeah guns on BW are a no-go. Utterly expensive and capable of small damage. I don't even bring the rolla for all my transports, just 1-2 when I field 3 wagons. Keep the wagons as cheap as possible, they're already very expensive with no upgrades.
I always go for the free 'ard case upgrade. If I want 20 shooters like bustas I'd bring two trukks.
To figure out if a model is charging or not is really simple in 8th: If you rolled 2d6 for them and moved them during your charge phase, they are charging. If you didn't roll dice or they failed their charge move, they are not. No exceptions to this rule, as far as I am aware, there is nothing in the game that lets you "count as charging".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: So you were NOT charging yet you used rules as if DID charge? Sorry but that's really bad. Never assume things work for you when they might not
Eh, they also did disembarking wrong. Unlike in previous editions you remove the dead transport after you have disembarked the models inside. So the passengers of those surrounded rhinos would have been dead anyways.
The only difference would have been that the rhinos would have gotten to attack before some of the boyz.
Oh my. What a fiasco! We completely screwed that game up...it all ended up working how it would have in the end, since the rhino's were all completely surrounded... but wow. I can't believe how we butchered those rules...
-x2 Wazboom Blast Jets *w/ x2 Supa Shootas, Kustom Force Field
DEDICATED TRANSPORTS:
-x7 Chinork Warkoptas *w/ Skorchas, Deff Gunz
TOTAL ARMY: 2000 POINTS
TACTICS: Push Chinorks up the table to get some Skorcha shenanigans off with the Blast Jets target prioritizing Armour/MC's
Also debating dropping 2 squads of Tankbustas and Chinorks for 2 squadrons of Deff Koptas, what are your thoughts on that?
Ohhh so you've decided to load up the chinorks with tankbustas? I like it. You're not building an extremely competitive list, but damn it will be fun to play. Without changing the whole list, I would say just drop the rokkits on anything that isn't a tankbusta. And also remember that you need to place half your units on the table before the game starts. I suspect you plan to load up 30 boyz, 2 HQ, and 40 tankbustas into 7 chinorks, which means when the game starts you'll only have 2 jets on the board. That won't be a legal deployment :( I'm unsure if that is "matched play" rules or not, and really depends on how serious a game you are playing, but yeah in a serious setting that wont work.
hollow one wrote: Ohhh so you've decided to load up the chinorks with tankbustas? I like it. You're not building an extremely competitive list, but damn it will be fun to play. Without changing the whole list, I would say just drop the rokkits on anything that isn't a tankbusta. And also remember that you need to place half your units on the table before the game starts. I suspect you plan to load up 30 boyz, 2 HQ, and 40 tankbustas into 7 chinorks, which means when the game starts you'll only have 2 jets on the board. That won't be a legal deployment :( I'm unsure if that is "matched play" rules or not, and really depends on how serious a game you are playing, but yeah in a serious setting that wont work.
Was actually planning on starting the 2 jets and all the Chinorks on the board. With their increased built in Turbo Boost I can get them all within 9 inches turn one and unleash 7 D6 Skorcha hits and maybe a few Deffgun ones with the Wazboom Jets prioritizing Armour/MC with their Kannons and the Supa Shootas supporting the Chinorks. Granted I might put a few in reserve depending on my opponent but not enough to where it's illegal.
gmaleron wrote: Was actually planning on starting the 2 jets and all the Chinorks on the board. With their increased built in Turbo Boost I can get them all within 9 inches turn one and unleash 7 D6 Skorcha hits and maybe a few Deffgun ones with the Wazboom Jets prioritizing Armour/MC with their Kannons and the Supa Shootas supporting the Chinorks.
Well colour me surprised. 24" move is something I totally overlooked. I'm excited for your list, tell us how it goes. I would still take out the random rokkits/kombis, they just too much for what they do, maybe find points for a warboss/painboy.
tneva82 wrote: Thinking of getting 2 more battlewagons. Already have tons of infantry with my ~6k+ orks but only one battlewagon. Not most competive options but hey I don't need to play super competive games all the time and one can hope codex upgrades them a bit. Anyway I currently have one with just two big shootas. I don't want to spam same configuration n+ times so would like all vehicles generally be different.
The battlewagon is a very modular kit even when you don't magnetize it. Put something heavy or some spare foam from your army cases on the bottom of the grabbin klaw, lobba and shoota turrents and they will stay on during a game as well. Same for the 'ard case, just don't glue it, stick it onto the wagon whenever you want the option (or need space for more guns). Not a single option needs to be glued to the battlewagon - unless you are adding stuff from other kits like wreckin' balls, of course. The only choice you need to make when building a wagon is what gun to stick into the turret. It's not like a non-ork player can tell them apart though.
So I think first one is easy enough. Deth rolla and closed top for tough transport for in your face. 180 pts. Would wrecking ball be any good addition? Only 3 pts and would give some ability to try to clear hordes. It's slightly better against 6+ and maybe 5+ guys as it gets more hits in than deth roll.
You might want to re-read that wreckin' ball. It doesn't work like power-scourge on helbrutes, it just is limited on how often you can attack with it. If you want to kill stuff in melee, the rolla is the option to go, though some will never make it there. If you have some wagons that will most likely be first or second to die(for example, the wagon Thrakka is riding), just put a wrecking ball instead of a rolla on them to save points.
For second one I figured I would actually use some heavy guns. Kill kannon + lobba was current idea. I suspect shooting battlewagons are the worst kind but how badly I'm handicapping myself? And for this should I just settle for those 2 or would adding 4 big shootas be dealable? Rokkits are too expensive for sure.
A lobba has the same damage output as a big shoota, meaning it's bad. Pick either kannon or zzap gun as your second option. Since you already have a battlewagon kit, you should have a spare turret for the killkannon. Battlewagons with two turrets look bad-ass anyways. The dakka wagon isn't exactly stellar, it's just way to much points for what you are getting - one third of a LRBT for twice the points.
For 2nd open topped and use it as shooting base or 'ard case for that T8?
Unless you have flash gits, don't bother with shooty passengers in battlewagons. If you want a bunker, buy a bunker. Put some nobz, characters or two units of boyz in there and give it an 'ard case.
So I played a 1500 point game which ended in a draw when we ran out of time at the end of turn 4.
He was ultramarines with:
Girlyman
techmarine on a bike
2 razorbacks with twin assualt cannons - 1 had chronos in it
a spartan tank (fw) with eight las cannons, twin heavy bolter and heavy bolter
a character psycher (forget the name)
1 scout squad
2 tactical units 1 with heavy bolter 1 with lascannon
I had (basically all the models I currently own)
Zhardsnark da rippa
3 x weirdboyz
1x painboy
1x big mek with kff 1x warboss with pk 2x 30 boyz with pks (1 squad shootas)
1x 10 nobs (1 killsaw, 5 pks, 2 power stabbas, 2 choppa, 10 runts)
5x stormboyz
4x deffcopters
1x kmk
I was expected to be tabled but the game actually was going my way and if I had made fewer mistakes I could have won.
I deployed in a ball with the KFF protecting me, but won the roll off.
Turn 1 - Orks
I jumped the shootas, who failed the charge (by 1 inch) but managed to finish off a scout squad to get me first blood, and overwhelming fire power for 2 vps.
Everything moved up, zhard advanced across the board as I had priority orders to defend an objective on his side (this was a mistake, I'm still new and thought it was secure and not defend)
I brought on 2 defcopters to harass his flank and attempt a charge (they failed).
Turn 1 - Marines
He kill all but one of my shoota boys, my deffcopters and my KMK. He put some wounds on the other boy squad but nothing major - he shuffled around a bit but didn't really do much else. He got a couple of VPs for shooting and killing a unit.
Turn 2 - Orks
I used 2 CP to keep the nob from my shootas alive as I needed to clear a tactical squad to get an objective with Zhard but I wasn't sure he would do it alone and thought I might need the PK hits.
I moved 2nd squad of boyz up who got a decent advance and ended up a 6in charge from his non chronos RB which had the tech marine on bike next to it. My nobz were lagging behind so I jumped them up to 9" away from the same tank.
I brought deffcopters on again to attemp the 9" to help Zhard.
I did a one smite on the razorback to soften it up.
I made the charge with the boyz, nobz, zard and lone nob.
Zhard was a beast and killed the whole tactical squad with 2 wounds to spare.
The boyz and Nobz (only a couple in base contact) killed the razorback and took the techmarine down to two wounds (he saved him using a command point reroll). The consolidated around him to save themselves from shooting.
Turn 2 Marines
He moved his chronos razorback and gilry man over to get close enough to Zhard to target him.
He killed Zhard through shooting (if I had paid more attention I would have kept him with my army) and the lone nob, he put a couple of wounds on one of the deffcopters. He also killed my other warboss who was exposed due to my conga line of ammo runts still being in combat thanks to that tech marine.
He crazily drove into CC with his spartan tank, and whiffed on my nobs, only one of which was in CC but put a few wounds back onto it.
Turn 3 Orks
I repositioned my weirdboyz to get smites on his spartan - one was denied but I got warpath off on the nobs and one d3 smite through. I consolidated all my PK nobs into the spartan. I flew my deffcopters into safety to hold them in case any other objectives popped up later.
The glorious carnage happened the nob squad with the killsaw and the pks, put 17 wounds onto the spartan (T8 2+) killing it. I was amazed and very happy to get that thing off the board - my mates face was priceless.
I consolidated towards what was left of one tactical squad and the llibraian.
Turn 3 - Marines
He backed up and left his last tacticals as a screen.
He first shot a lascannon into my nobz, got a wound and was horrified when I removed one runt, only to remember by painboy save and roll a 6. He then opened up with the Chronos twin assault cannon on my Nobs, 10 wounds came through. I still had 10 runts, but rather than use them I rolled the saves one at a time using the Nobs armour saves and the painboy 6++ when I had lost the 2 choppa nobs I switched to runts. I was able to tank the 10 wounds losing only 2 runts and 2 nobz - I thought this was amazing. He was confused and didn't know what to shoot so ended up wasting some shots on boyz - the 10 runts were worth thier weight in gold here.
Turn 4 - Orks
Knowing I couldn't close the distance on the razorback (he would keep falling back) I decided to form a blog protected by KFF and painboy and finish off his tacticals and Psycher I killed the tacticals off easily enough with shooting, and his Psycher was on 2 wounds, I decided not to charge him as I didn't want the boyz getting shot up and counter charged by girly.
It felt as if I would win at this stage as he only had 3 models left on the board and I had 8 nobz, 20+ boyz, big mek, 3 weridboyz, painboy, 2 deffcopters, and some grot gunners in the backfield.
Turn 4 Marines.
He focused on objectives knowing we were running out of time and wouldn't get another turn. He killed a weridboy and the deffcopters to clear mid field for an objective and that was how the game ended.
We called it a tie at 8 to 8 but as I've written this I've just realised I missed linebreaker so I actually won by 1 point!
My take aways were:
The Nob squad was as powerful in the game as it was on paper - my opponent was not expecting that kind of punishment, and when he realised the threat his shooting was already too weakened to quickly kill it off.
30 shootas are worth jumping as they can help deal with one of the screens and if they fail the charge they at least did something. Giving the enemy a 30 wound target I feel protects your other troops and nobz as they move up.
The painboy heals kept one weirdboy at full health throughout the game which was great for safe overhcharged smites.
The KFF saved a lot of boyz, having a 5+ instead of just removing models was nice. I think I will miss him if I don't move him up with the boyz.
Deffcopters didnt do anything for me - my main issue is lack of models at the moment and I happen to have 4. I think if certain objectives came up they could have been more useful.
Zhardsnark was a beast, I should have kept him with my army though, I'm not sure exactly how I should be using him, I got him specifically to have a very mobile warlord.
I'm wondering if I should go for a trukk full of tank bustas or 3 more kmks for the army.
If I drop the deffcopters what should I do to get to 2k points?
Zhardsnark da rippa
3 x weirdboyz
1x painboy
1x big mek with kff 1x warboss with pk 2x 30 boyz with pks (1 squad shootas)
1x 10 nobs (1 killsaw, 5 pks, 2 power stabbas, 2 choppa, 10 runts)
5x stormboyz
4x deffcopters
1x kmk
Zhardsnark was a beast, I should have kept him with my army though, I'm not sure exactly how I should be using him, I got him specifically to have a very mobile warlord.
I'm wondering if I should go for a trukk full of tank bustas or 3 more kmks for the army.
If I drop the deffcopters what should I do to get to 2k points?
Grats on your game just being that far ahead on models by turn four is encouraging. While growing to 2k points, if you want to drop those Koptas you could probably get some Kommandos (Go cheap and get some boyz and apply bitz until they look like some Kommando's) and another squad of boyz. If points allow, one or two more 5 man Stormboy squads for forward objectives, another KMK for backfield objectives. I think in a list featuring Da Jump and Kommando's you can bring Snikrot to help get some character support with those forward units.
The main reason I haven't gone for komandos is I'm a bit sick of painting boyz. I think realistically I need another 30 boy squad and I'm kind of dreading building and painting it. Adding even more komandos on top may make sense but it's pushing my model count seriously high. I'm fairly new to the game so not very fast, and I worry about taking too long (any tips on speeding up the game would be great).
I don't suppose we have any other semi viable options?
I was thinking to go up to 20 stormboyz in a U it, do you think its better to run them in 5s for objective grabbing the ?
The main reason I haven't gone for komandos is I'm a bit sick of painting boyz. I think realistically I need another 30 boy squad and I'm kind of dreading building and painting it. Adding even more komandos on top may make sense but it's pushing my model count seriously high. I'm fairly new to the game so not very fast, and I worry about taking too long (any tips on speeding up the game would be great).
I don't suppose we have any other semi viable options?
I was thinking to go up to 20 stormboyz in a U it, do you think its better to run them in 5s for objective grabbing the ?
I certainly understand the tedium to painting soo many boyz, and even moving that many. If your typical game table is a flat smooth surface (a mat in a store.) You might consider five or ten man movement trays that you can slide your boyz around on it can really speed things up in open spaces. Also adding advance moves to your normal move is a pretty normal modification to the movement rules that most opponents allow to help make games move along quicker.
If the tedium of painting more boyz outways keeping a level of competitiveness then you might just consider a couple battlewagonz and go mechanized. Anybody here on the tactics forums will tell you that is a bad way to go right now, I won't pretend it's good I've done it quite often this edition and typically do get tabled when I do. However, with the next dex on the horizon we can all pretend anything terrible is worth investing on the off chance it suddenly gets good in (june? july?).
This next tip is a bit beardy, but it's a fact worth mentioning nonetheless. One of the things that helps a green tide out is that time typically becomes a limiting factor for games. It helps cover up our lack of durability in objective based missions where killing the enemy is less important then moving to objectives (and just getting shot off the board a bit at a time). Moving quickly is healthy for an honest competitive game, but cutting your model count in a green tide list can make your games short enough to make ork durability a big factor.
Stormboyz- I think their ideal unit size is defined by their armywide number. If you are bringing 90-150 Boyz, then stormboyz are 5 man squads who do nothing more then dart to objectives early and then maybe tie up something in CC for a turn that might otherwise shoot some boyz. If you have a large amount of Stormboyz, to the tune of 60-100, and/or maybe even that many kommandos, then I believe you want larger stormboy squads for a good Ld modifier and to drown the enemy in dice. The Trukkboy list of last edition has sort of been replaced by a Stormboy list this edition because the overcosted nature of the trukk makes any advantages it offers the boyz inside a premium you can't pay for when Stormboyz can be many more in number for the same points. IF next edition brings a large point cost reduction in the trukk then this balance could change (and also maybe mechanized become playable again). The main reason why I think the armywide number matters is that you need all your melee attacks to make it in assault at around the same turn so you want the bulk to move at the same speed. Now you might keep a full squad of stormboyz in a Ork Boy based green tide simply because their mobility can send them jumping over a boyz squad to an otherwise open flank where they can support an assault in large number. This is essentially paying to enhance your footprint, increasing the amount of CC dice you can put in the same space. It can be less effective vs armies who have large screens, but at the same time be beneficial when you can hop over a screen into something your enemy doesn't want to see in CC.
A good way to help make moving stormboyz quicker is basing them on 32mm bases, probably not really frowned upon either they fall over on terrain constantly.
I'm in the beer right now sorry if my thoughts are a bit all over the place.
The main reason I haven't gone for komandos is I'm a bit sick of painting boyz. I think realistically I need another 30 boy squad and I'm kind of dreading building and painting it. Adding even more komandos on top may make sense but it's pushing my model count seriously high. I'm fairly new to the game so not very fast, and I worry about taking too long (any tips on speeding up the game would be great).
30? HAH! I have like 120 to paint and I know I need to buy and paint some 150 more :( (well albeit this is future proofing due to upcoming codex and it's clan traits)
Kommandos would be actually fun sideproject to convert and paint. Got to get some boyz bodies to start converting.
I played yesterday. I had 5 KMK's in my list and 1 Bubble Chukka. The bubble chukka out preformed all of the KMK's.
My dice were not good at all. D6 shots roll a 1, D6 shots roll a 2. This was every turn and out of 5 KMK's only managed to roll 3 and 4 shots with 2 of them as the highest number of shots for the first 2 turns. on turn 3 I managed to roll 5 shots for 2 of them but the over all rolls were not good. The Bubble Chukka on the other hand came crashing out of the gate with interesting rolls, I had taken 2 or 3 wounds off of a SoB transport, they have 12 wounds, I managed to get two hits on that transport, having had only a few shots, 3 or 4, but at AP-4 and 5 damage. Easily the best gun in my list yesterday.
One area I found extra lacking was longer ranged shooting.
I'm going to drop down to 2 or 3 KMK's and see if I can add lootas to my list to just stand in the back, in cover, and reach further out into the enemy lines. Or maybe add that SAG Big Mek instead. More range and character rules. Not sure if it can take an ammo runt but I would put Dakka Dakka on his shots to try to help him out. (Just a thought.)
I had to leave before the game was over but my opponent thinks I would have won by points in the next turn. So there's that. We played Mission 4 from chapter approved.
Rismonite wrote: Also adding advance moves to your normal move is a pretty normal modification to the movement rules that most opponents allow to help make games move along quicker.
Um that's core rules. 7th ed advance was done in shooting phase. One of the few improvements 8th ed actually had.
A good way to help make moving stormboyz quicker is basing them on 32mm bases, probably not really frowned upon either they fall over on terrain constantly.
A good way to help make moving stormboyz quicker is basing them on 32mm bases, probably not really frowned upon either they fall over on terrain constantly.
Coins to bottom.
I use washers myself and all my stormboys are the old metal/plastic hybrid kits. Keep in mind that if you ever take the stormboys to a tournament, many won't allow a different size base than what the kits come with. Adepticon has even gone so far as to say that models have to be based on the current size. Enjoy rebasing ALL your marines on 32s
I use washers myself and all my stormboys are the old metal/plastic hybrid kits. Keep in mind that if you ever take the stormboys to a tournament, many won't allow a different size base than what the kits come with. Adepticon has even gone so far as to say that models have to be based on the current size. Enjoy rebasing ALL your marines on 32s
I put coins under some of mine, I need to finish that.
I haven't been to a tournament that had bases issues this edition, seems the rules avoid mentioning base specifics as far as I can tell. I'm never going to rebase my whole army to 32's it's not worth the time or trouble.
Also not planning to go to a major tournament, they sound absolutely horrid.
Rismonite wrote: While growing to 2k points, if you want to drop those Koptas you could probably get some Kommandos (Go cheap and get some boyz and apply bitz until they look like some Kommando's) and another squad of boyz.
Though buy one box of kommandos as the Nob that comes with it is a really great model, loads of orky character.
What's a good fast objective grabbing unit for us? I was thinking of using my deffcopters for that but they just seem to be effortlessly blasted off the board.
I think on paper scorchas look good but buying some is a bit tricky.
Kommandos are also good since they can appear anywhere more than 9" away from enemy models. Depending on your opponent, it could mean you just spawn right next to it or basically guarantee being next to it the following turn.
Yesterday I used Wartrakks, a Weirdboy, Mek guns And a trukk.
To gain objectives all through out the game. Mostly if I use a character it's next to another unit to give me two scoring units at a time. I also put 30 shoota boys in combat to pile more boys nearer an objectives well as kill two units. For most of the game I manage to control 4 of the 6 objectives as well as destroy units for KP's. so I kept a fair lead on points all game. I got lucky that I was able to set up controlling 2 objectives from the start. It's nice to be lucky some times.
mrtomski wrote: What's a good fast objective grabbing unit for us? I was thinking of using my deffcopters for that but they just seem to be effortlessly blasted off the board.
I think on paper scorchas look good but buying some is a bit tricky.
Snikrot is also decent for this. On an objective in cover he is very difficult to kill through shooting, and few units actually want to charge a character with his profile.
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warhead01 wrote: Yesterday I used Wartrakks, a Weirdboy, Mek guns And a trukk.
To gain objectives all through out the game. Mostly if I use a character it's next to another unit to give me two scoring units at a time. I also put 30 shoota boys in combat to pile more boys nearer an objectives well as kill two units. For most of the game I manage to control 4 of the 6 objectives as well as destroy units for KP's. so I kept a fair lead on points all game. I got lucky that I was able to set up controlling 2 objectives from the start. It's nice to be lucky some times.
Scoring depends on model count, not unit count. A warboss doesn't count any more than an ammo runt for who controls an objective.
Min squad of kommandos are good, 45 points for 6 wounds that can deepstrike. Alternatively lone buggies or skorchas if you bring mechanized lists.
Mek gunz for holding objective in the orks backfield. Eventually grots, but I'm not a fan of them. The weirdboy once he jumped everyone is a decent objective holder as long as is in rage to cast his powers, you don't want him into combat.
Snikrot and badrukk are also decent for that job, but not cheap.
What do you think are "safe" bets of boxes to start picking up before codex drop? I've a feeling Orks are going to see a surge of popularity once the new kits/codex drops, and I'd like to find some deals while I can.
Or....perhaps I should wait it out until the codex releases, and just buy stuff based on rule of cool for now?
ajax_xaja wrote: What do you think are "safe" bets of boxes to start picking up before codex drop? I've a feeling Orks are going to see a surge of popularity once the new kits/codex drops, and I'd like to find some deals while I can.
Or....perhaps I should wait it out until the codex releases, and just buy stuff based on rule of cool for now?
Currently speaking, boyz are technically the safest option, but they're better to buy in bulk online for cheaper like on eBay than through GW channels. Other than that, stormboyz are unlikely to get worse and will likely only get better with klan traits, as will Mek Gunz (specifically the KMK).
ajax_xaja wrote: What do you think are "safe" bets of boxes to start picking up before codex drop? I've a feeling Orks are going to see a surge of popularity once the new kits/codex drops, and I'd like to find some deals while I can.
Or....perhaps I should wait it out until the codex releases, and just buy stuff based on rule of cool for now?
I'd go for mek guns and magnetize them. It's very unlikely that they give massive nerf to KMK and not make any of the other guns useful.
Next to that, I guess the ork planes are a good bet, since they will most likely drop in points and are decent choices already. Again, magnetize so you can switch to whatever variant is favored in the codex.
warhead01 wrote: Yesterday I used Wartrakks, a Weirdboy, Mek guns And a trukk.
To gain objectives all through out the game. Mostly if I use a character it's next to another unit to give me two scoring units at a time. I also put 30 shoota boys in combat to pile more boys nearer an objectives well as kill two units. For most of the game I manage to control 4 of the 6 objectives as well as destroy units for KP's. so I kept a fair lead on points all game. I got lucky that I was able to set up controlling 2 objectives from the start. It's nice to be lucky some times.
Scoring depends on model count, not unit count. A warboss doesn't count any more than an ammo runt for who controls an objective.
Yes your right. And extra units might be useful to block while the larger unit holds it down. If it's unclaimed then one unit is fine even if it's only one model. It's usually a temporary situation.
ajax_xaja wrote: What do you think are "safe" bets of boxes to start picking up before codex drop? I've a feeling Orks are going to see a surge of popularity once the new kits/codex drops, and I'd like to find some deals while I can.
Or....perhaps I should wait it out until the codex releases, and just buy stuff based on rule of cool for now?
I'd go for mek guns and magnetize them. It's very unlikely that they give massive nerf to KMK and not make any of the other guns useful.
Next to that, I guess the ork planes are a good bet, since they will most likely drop in points and are decent choices already. Again, magnetize so you can switch to whatever variant is favored in the codex.
Generally go with what's already decent- I would be baffled if they nerf what little we have going for us.
Boyz
Stormboyz
Kustom Mega Kannons
Warbosses
If your risk tolerance is a little higher, you can try for Killa Kanz. They're... okay right now, and pretty much everyone is hoping for a walker buff.
I think the models that aren't selling much at the moment, will be the solid units in the next codex.
They won't get many more sales of Boyz from existing players.
So does anyone feel like they know the optimum unit for seizing objectives and tying units down?
Kommando deployment is great, but for the rest of the game meh. And I like my grots, but I wonder if some more-durable faster stormboyz would do a better job, or are they just too expensive?? idk.
And, this is specific but...
What's the best unit to eat overwatch from primaris Flamestorm Gauntlets, and less specifically high-overwatch units in general, maybe a trukk/kan.
I concentrated them down last game with my gitz, jets and badrukk. However I had other targets my opponent was keeping out of charge-range I would have prefered to shoot.
Anyone got any tips for dealing with suit-heavy Tau? Got absolutely seen off by them in the game I played last night. The effectiveness of their overwatch and ability to fall back then shoot, and my Orks' lack of speed really caused me problems. Managed to get some charges off but had a tough time killing stuff outright, then they just jumped out and blasted me. What can I do to mitigate this?
Depends on your army style. I haven't had much of a problem fighting tau so far, but I'm not sure my tau opponent is actually any good with them.
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CaffeineIsGood wrote: So does anyone feel like they know the optimum unit for seizing objectives and tying units down?
Kommando deployment is great, but for the rest of the game meh. And I like my grots, but I wonder if some more-durable faster stormboyz would do a better job, or are they just too expensive?? idk.
Boyz and storm boyz do work well obviously.
If you want to clear a unit off an objective, both Zardsnark and the warboss on a bike with relic and attack squig are decent choices as they can kill a lot of infantry models in shooting and combat, have character protection and can get anywhere really fast. I wouldn't try to shift a unit of custodes off and objective with them though.
And, this is specific but...
What's the best unit to eat overwatch from primaris Flamestorm Gauntlets, and less specifically high-overwatch units in general, maybe a trukk/kan.
I concentrated them down last game with my gitz, jets and badrukk. However I had other targets my opponent was keeping out of charge-range I would have prefered to shoot.
Pretty much any vehicle works well, the trick is to have them wound on 5+ to reduce the wounds as much as possible and then take a 4+ armor save. 10 flamers would do an average of 6 wounds to such a unit.
I tried asking before but I think it got lost in the discussion then. Has anyone got any experience running Gargantuan Squiggoths and how to use them? I've tried looking up peoples experiences but haven't been able to find much useful stuff.
I'm working on a list and a scratch built Gargantuan Squiggoth. The intention of running ~1000-1200 points focus on typical green tide + kmk stuff, ~500 points for the Gargantuan Squiggoth with Supa-Lobbas, and ~300-500 points of embarked units like Flash Gitz possibly tank bustas.
The plan was to just get the Gargantuan Squiggoth stuck in asap and leave it as a giant obstacle in the middle of the battlefield.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or previous experiences?
Quackzo wrote: I tried asking before but I think it got lost in the discussion then. Has anyone got any experience running Gargantuan Squiggoths and how to use them? I've tried looking up peoples experiences but haven't been able to find much useful stuff.
I'm working on a list and a scratch built Gargantuan Squiggoth. The intention of running ~1000-1200 points focus on typical green tide + kmk stuff, ~500 points for the Gargantuan Squiggoth with Supa-Lobbas, and ~300-500 points of embarked units like Flash Gitz possibly tank bustas.
The plan was to just get the Gargantuan Squiggoth stuck in asap and leave it as a giant obstacle in the middle of the battlefield.
Any thoughts, suggestions, or previous experiences?
The gargantuan squiggoth was pretty popular in late 2017, it was a big player in our lists and it's definitely a meta call. In my signature there's a primer that has a section on lists that include the Garg Squig. It's a tried and tested element of the current ork index that definitely works in the right setting.
Urgh. Is there any way to make even semi-sensible army(albeit for more fluff based tournament so presumably won't be die hard competive list galore) for 1750 pts with max 3 units period? Including troops, dedicated transports etc. And squadrons aren't way out. Squadron of 6 killa kans counts as 6 so way over the limit.
Struggling to come up with anything. Even fairly relaxed army can shoot 90 boyz fairly easily and I can't even bring my stomping mob of 9 killa kans for fun. Wouldn't expect to perform well but at least with that many kans maybe some get to combat for some fun stomp. But no. I'm stuck with token 3 that gets blown out before they do anything.
I can't come up with army that's even semi-viable nor am I able to come up with list that's particularly interesting in "let's screw winning chances and go for fun theme".
Too bad I dont' have 90 stormboyz. That would help on power level at least. 90 boyz, 90 stormboyz would be okay. But 90 stormboyz costs lots of £££.
tneva82 wrote: Urgh. Is there any way to make even semi-sensible army(albeit for more fluff based tournament so presumably won't be die hard competive list galore) for 1750 pts with max 3 units period? Including troops, dedicated transports etc. And squadrons aren't way out. Squadron of 6 killa kans counts as 6 so way over the limit.
Struggling to come up with anything. Even fairly relaxed army can shoot 90 boyz fairly easily and I can't even bring my stomping mob of 9 killa kans for fun. Wouldn't expect to perform well but at least with that many kans maybe some get to combat for some fun stomp. But no. I'm stuck with token 3 that gets blown out before they do anything.
I can't come up with army that's even semi-viable nor am I able to come up with list that's particularly interesting in "let's screw winning chances and go for fun theme".
Too bad I dont' have 90 stormboyz. That would help on power level at least. 90 boyz, 90 stormboyz would be okay. But 90 stormboyz costs lots of £££.
Yay random game limits.
30 basic nobs no upgrades
9 manz 90 boyz
2 warbosses 1 big mek kmk - maybe graz
9 flash gits
45 kommandos.
tneva82 wrote: Urgh. Is there any way to make even semi-sensible army(albeit for more fluff based tournament so presumably won't be die hard competive list galore) for 1750 pts with max 3 units period? Including troops, dedicated transports etc. And squadrons aren't way out. Squadron of 6 killa kans counts as 6 so way over the limit.
Struggling to come up with anything. Even fairly relaxed army can shoot 90 boyz fairly easily and I can't even bring my stomping mob of 9 killa kans for fun. Wouldn't expect to perform well but at least with that many kans maybe some get to combat for some fun stomp. But no. I'm stuck with token 3 that gets blown out before they do anything.
I can't come up with army that's even semi-viable nor am I able to come up with list that's particularly interesting in "let's screw winning chances and go for fun theme".
Too bad I dont' have 90 stormboyz. That would help on power level at least. 90 boyz, 90 stormboyz would be okay. But 90 stormboyz costs lots of £££.
This is very easy to do, most high performing lists do not have many more than 90 boyz. At 1750 you could easily modify most successful lists to fit this rule. Weirdboyz is the only thing that is truly impacted by this rule IMO, and maybe KMK (3 would be fine tbh).
Here are some examples I pulled from my primer:
Ben Mohile’s NOVA Open 2017 (top 12): Zhadsnark, Big Mek on bike (KFF), 100 Boyz (30, 30, 30, 10), Trukk, 2 Big Trakk, 5 KMK, 4 Weirdboy, 1 Painboy, 10 Tank bustas (5, 5).
Jacob Ballard’s LVO 2018 (53rd): 120 boyz, 2 warbosses, 36 stormboyz, a painboy, 2 weirdboyz, snikrot, runtherd, and 84 gretchin.
Charles Craig's LVO 2018 (71st): 30 boyz, 90 gretchin (30, 30, 30), 1 warboss on bike, 60 stormboys (25, 25, 10), a painboy on bike, 4 weirdboyz, Zagstruk, dakkajet, trukk, runtherd, big mek (KFF), big mek on bike (KFF)
Rich Kilton’s LVO 2018 (117th): 98 boyz (30, 29, 29, 10) , 1 warboss, 41 stormboyz (19, 17, 5), 2 painboys, 6 weirdboyz, snikrot, nob w/ banner, battlewagon w/ ‘ard case and deff rolla.
Dropping down to 90 boyz and 3 weirdboyz would not drastically impact the quality of any of these lists.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Gents I'm not sure what the restriction is about but he's asked for a list consisting of only 3 units max.
3 x 3 Deffdreads?
KFF Big Meks
Naut.
3x3 deffdreads=fail. It's 9 vehicles. Tournament specifically ruled out squadrons being used to get more than 3. So there goes idea of bringing my 11(forgot I had 2 metal ones) killa kans for stomping.
Not to mention I only have 4 deffdreads to begin with!
If squadroned vehicles would be OK I would be for sure bringing something like gorganaut, 3-4 deff dreads and then like 11 killa kans just for laughs Would suck in terms of competiveness but if others aren't bringing cutthroat lists maybe I could stomp some 'ummies for laughs before getting floored.
That sucks. I don't understand why you'd not be able to take Dreads and Kans in the same unit as specified in their rules? Sounds like your game organisers want a Custodes winner to me!
Huh, seems like those rules definitely favors elite armies with rock hard units.
Is it only vehicle squadrons that are restricted? If so, maybe a big unit of Mek gunz? And 10 nobz in a BW? Or do transports count as units by themselves? Or a big unit of Flash Gitz in a BW, for mobile firepower. Do you need a HQ?
You could always bring a Smörgåsbord-selection of Orks, a bit of everything, a real mish-mash hodgepodge catalog of showing off the entire unit variety of Orks. Might not be the fastest way to play though...
Do you have a Meka Dread or either of the Squiggoths for fun?
tneva82 wrote: Urgh. Is there any way to make even semi-sensible army(albeit for more fluff based tournament so presumably won't be die hard competive list galore) for 1750 pts with max 3 units period? Including troops, dedicated transports etc. And squadrons aren't way out. Squadron of 6 killa kans counts as 6 so way over the limit.
Struggling to come up with anything. Even fairly relaxed army can shoot 90 boyz fairly easily and I can't even bring my stomping mob of 9 killa kans for fun. Wouldn't expect to perform well but at least with that many kans maybe some get to combat for some fun stomp. But no. I'm stuck with token 3 that gets blown out before they do anything.
I can't come up with army that's even semi-viable nor am I able to come up with list that's particularly interesting in "let's screw winning chances and go for fun theme".
Too bad I dont' have 90 stormboyz. That would help on power level at least. 90 boyz, 90 stormboyz would be okay. But 90 stormboyz costs lots of £££.
Do you have your battlewagons yet?
You could just go for a battlewagon bash - style list if you do.
You have 190 points left for planes, KMK, skorchas, battlewagon upgrades, more tankbustas or better passengers for your wagons. For example, you could put 10 nobz w/ ammo runts in one wagon and put 2x10 boyz in another.
That's actually interesting idea. No wagons though and might be too late. No money to order this month and it takes time for GW to ship them(unless I want non-deathroll ones but that means basically 3 identical ones which is boring) plus assemble+paint...
Also it's now touch&go whether to go for wagons or load up on stormboyz(and maybe kommandos). The 10 I have are bit meagre.
Also just 2 squigs for tank bustas and that needs assembling and painting too.
Two non-bike KFFs can be used to substitute the bike one, they would just stand behind the wagons and embark before moving them turn 1. Thrakka's wagon is going to get shot down first anyways, so having a KFF inside is usually just as good as having a bubble next to it.
If you really want to spend money on orks, I would advice going for the stormboyz though. I don't think they will see a nerf with the codex, buying battlewagons is a gamble.
Tneva, what do you have (roughly) and what exactly are the restrictions of the list for the tourney? I'm struggling to understand both and that might help us cobble something that looks like a list together for you.
An Actual Englishman wrote: That sucks. I don't understand why you'd not be able to take Dreads and Kans in the same uni
They have different toughness. So, you either lower the average unit toughness to 5 or up it to 7. None of which is intended from the get go. The only exception for orks are ammo runts. And, well, you see how those are used.
An Actual Englishman wrote: That sucks. I don't understand why you'd not be able to take Dreads and Kans in the same uni
They have different toughness. So, you either lower the average unit toughness to 5 or up it to 7. None of which is intended from the get go. The only exception for orks are ammo runts. And, well, you see how those are used.
I think you misunderstand. I mean a 'unit' of 3 Dreads, or 6 Kans, not Kans and Dreads in the same unit together. He's prevented from taking this.
Does anyone have any advice for taking on BA with pure greentide? There are two players in my club that I can't beat. We're playing ITC Champion missions. They both run the usual blobs of Sanguinary Guards and DC, a Sanguinary Ancient, a few smash captains, Lamartes, scouts, and scout bikers. Other than that one guy runs pure BA with primaris and the other with IG.
An Actual Englishman wrote: That sucks. I don't understand why you'd not be able to take Dreads and Kans in the same uni
They have different toughness. So, you either lower the average unit toughness to 5 or up it to 7. None of which is intended from the get go. The only exception for orks are ammo runts. And, well, you see how those are used.
I think you misunderstand. I mean a 'unit' of 3 Dreads, or 6 Kans, not Kans and Dreads in the same unit together. He's prevented from taking this.
Oh yeah, i misunderstood that than. Btw, i've tried mixed dread mobs and boyz+grotz mobs back in 7-th homebrew codex. Boyz + grots worked perfectly, however vehicle squadrons with different AV had a ton of problems due to how rules are written. We could see this on the with leman russ squadrons - they had tanks with av10 and av11 back armor able to form a single squadron and you could technically inflict damage with s4 weapons to av11 if av10 was the closest. But that's long gone anywayz.
Meanmurph wrote: Does anyone have any advice for taking on BA with pure greentide? There are two players in my club that I can't beat. We're playing ITC Champion missions. They both run the usual blobs of Sanguinary Guards and DC, a Sanguinary Ancient, a few smash captains, Lamartes, scouts, and scout bikers. Other than that one guy runs pure BA with primaris and the other with IG.
Firstly, why do you make your text so big?
Anyway, BA are a really good match-up for green tide on paper. Slam captains and sang guard are great at alpha striking, once they deep strike and destroy whatever they want, they are left pretty exposed. So all you really have to do is take some of the table (ideally with some objectives) and wait for the deepstrike, then swarm with boys. Don't run forward and spread out and let them find a nice hole to your characters. Just build a donut of boys around your weirdboyz and wait for him to make the first move. You'll win so long as he feels pressured to take board space away from you. If he's sitting back he's not doing a lot of damage, so that can be good for you. Make sure you have good target priority in combat, once the captains are down they are actually pretty useless, but the sang guard are pretty scary, so interrupt those charges or get good counter charges on them. Leave the characters to last, or smite them.
I play a KMK line with greentide and weirdboys, and this match-up feels good if you're patient and play objectives. What secondaries are you choosing in ITC? By how much are you losing? Are you getting to turn 6? I think green-tide has the tools to win this match-up, it can certainly be a tactical error rather than a list error that can edge you towards losing.
Meanmurph wrote: Does anyone have any advice for taking on BA with pure greentide? There are two players in my club that I can't beat. We're playing ITC Champion missions. They both run the usual blobs of Sanguinary Guards and DC, a Sanguinary Ancient, a few smash captains, Lamartes, scouts, and scout bikers. Other than that one guy runs pure BA with primaris and the other with IG.
Firstly, why do you make your text so big?
Anyway, BA are a really good match-up for green tide on paper. Slam captains and sang guard are great at alpha striking, once they deep strike and destroy whatever they want, they are left pretty exposed. So all you really have to do is take some of the table (ideally with some objectives) and wait for the deepstrike, then swarm with boys. Don't run forward and spread out and let them find a nice hole to your characters. Just build a donut of boys around your weirdboyz and wait for him to make the first move. You'll win so long as he feels pressured to take board space away from you. If he's sitting back he's not doing a lot of damage, so that can be good for you. Make sure you have good target priority in combat, once the captains are down they are actually pretty useless, but the sang guard are pretty scary, so interrupt those charges or get good counter charges on them. Leave the characters to last, or smite them.
I play a KMK line with greentide and weirdboys, and this match-up feels good if you're patient and play objectives. What secondaries are you choosing in ITC? By how much are you losing? Are you getting to turn 6? I think green-tide has the tools to win this match-up, it can certainly be a tactical error rather than a list error that can edge you towards losing.
I haven't had luck playing the long game. While I hangout on objectives, they're blasting away mobz with mortars, aggressors, and scout bikers. Though, I'm probably spread too thin.
I don't currently run any kmks. I usually go with recon, old school, and headhunter. I did try out behind enemy lines, with a couple of dakkajetz added to the lists for funsies. The captains made very short work of those though. We'll hit turn six usually though only 5 on occasion. Yup, I don't think it's list. Thanks for the advice.
Ah well now we are talking different units as well, mortars and aggressors are a nightmare to deal with. I have a single Dakkajet in my list, and it's primary role is to kill mortar squads when I vs imperial guard soups. He kills a triplet each turn, very very useful, and you've mentioned you've got some so I would certainly bring a dakkajet for this purpose alone. Aggressors are much more difficult to deal with, but if you can force them to move then you're in a much better position. Hopefully the board allows you to hide at least a little bit.
Oldschool is super hard for orks. We rarely have the pressure to get first blood, can only get to their warlord if they deliver him, and if we get linebreaker/last kill then you've probably tabled them anyway. Consider BGH or reaper if possible, otherwise go for kingslayer and put it on one of his smash captains (sure he's only worth 2 points, but he becomes a huge liability for your opponent and they may not use him properly).
Pew pew boyz and kmks 1st place in 2v2 tournament. Ha, now you can stop saying I don't play orks :p
3x boyz blobs, 3x kmk, weirdboy, warboss on bike
Tyranid partner with 1 tyrnant, 1 tyrannofex and chaff
Won against 2 semi-cheating guys. So that's cool. Anywho no big deal ofc, but first ork win in the country I guess. And still undefeated in 8th ed tournies - yay
CaffeineIsGood wrote: So does anyone feel like they know the optimum unit for seizing objectives and tying units down?
Kommando deployment is great, but for the rest of the game meh. And I like my grots, but I wonder if some more-durable faster stormboyz would do a better job, or are they just too expensive?? idk.
Boyz and storm boyz do work well obviously.
If you want to clear a unit off an objective, both Zardsnark and the warboss on a bike with relic and attack squig are decent choices as they can kill a lot of infantry models in shooting and combat, have character protection and can get anywhere really fast. I wouldn't try to shift a unit of custodes off and objective with them though.
I'm loving the idea of a biker warboss, hadn't really considered them, had stormboyz on the mind.
Is it worth taking a Kombi-Skorcha on the biker-warboss? Or is Zardnark the better choice?
Big trakk with supa-skorcha, as usual, freaking awesome (brought a Broodlord down in overwacth).
Boyz... what to say, just hope that they don't get nerfed... I made a mistake with the attacks (3 instead of 4) and even though they ripped apart 2 Units of genestealers in 1 turn and brought down the big monsters.
The Burna-bomber did well and I've got my doubts in which one I preffer, burna-bomber or dakkajet.
The Stormboyz 3 squads of 5 did great in first turn to secure a couple of objectives and absorve a lot of fire power and assaults in turn 1, after that they were gone.
Also, I got some AoS Ironjaz to make some conversions (my Big Mek on Pork is looking great already).
Ming wrote: So I had a game against Nids this Weekend.
´Warbosses definetly Need some inv. saves...
Big trakk with supa-skorcha, as usual, freaking awesome (brought a Broodlord down in overwacth).
Boyz... what to say, just hope that they don't get nerfed... I made a mistake with the attacks (3 instead of 4) and even though they ripped apart 2 Units of genestealers in 1 turn and brought down the big monsters.
The Burna-bomber did well and I've got my doubts in which one I preffer, burna-bomber or dakkajet.
The Stormboyz 3 squads of 5 did great in first turn to secure a couple of objectives and absorve a lot of fire power and assaults in turn 1, after that they were gone.
Also, I got some AoS Ironjaz to make some conversions (my Big Mek on Pork is looking great already).
I agree with you on warboss, I almost don't want him to get into combat because when he gets there he is usually focused by the enemies troops, who can usually inflict some wounds or kill him outright because hes only got a 4+ save. Boyz.....they literally carry our army right now by themselves. I played against a Nid player the other day and he moved 3 units of Genestealers and a unit of Gaunts right up to my line and failed EVERY SINGLE CHARGE. My two units of boyz counter attacked, one got a buff from a weirdboy (warpath) and they absolutely mulched his entire line.
on a mod basis....I just bought a unit of Chaos Warriors from AoS, the ones with the capes. I am going to try and put Ork Torsos, or if the cape is part of the torso then just the arms and head of an Ork on them and use them as Kommandos. I refuse to pay $45 for 5 Ork Boyz models which cost a grand total of 45pts on the table.
At the end of the document, there are new datasheets for units that weren't in the index originally, including the Battlefortress! Unfortunately, there are no point values, just power points. I looked in my ebook of the IA index and nothing seems to have been added... Any ideas where they might be or if they are going to be added soon?
At the end of the document, there are new datasheets for units that weren't in the index originally, including the Battlefortress! Unfortunately, there are no point values, just power points. I looked in my ebook of the IA index and nothing seems to have been added... Any ideas where they might be or if they are going to be added soon?
It says in the faq that the new datasheets are only for open/narrative play, and won't be getting matched play points.
Kommandos just took a huge nerf. Can only infiltrate in your deployment zone on turn 1 now, unless you want to wait until turn 2.
That also indirectly affects da jump, because in order to do so the unit being jumped would be completely isolated turn 1.
Grotsnik also just lost his dual-FNP (5+, 6+). Too OP in spite of being inferior to a 3++.
Big changes in my mind to how I was planning on structuring an Ork army (full back field arrival turn 1). Good thing I waited. I figured that would change.
It looks like chain mob rule is gone. You no longer can use the leadership of the next-door unit, only it's model count. This means the big blob can't spread it's LD30 everywhere, just to the units next to it:
Page 10 – Mob Rule
Change the rule to read:
‘When using the Leadership characteristic of this unit,
you can use either its own Leadership characteristic,
or you can choose for the characteristic to be equal to
either the number of models in the unit, or the number
of models in another friendly unit within 6" that has
this ability.’
TedNugent wrote: Kommandos just took a huge nerf. Can only infiltrate in your deployment zone on turn 1 now, unless you want to wait until turn 2.
That also indirectly affects da jump, because in order to do so the unit being jumped would be completely isolated turn 1.
Grotsnik also just lost his dual-FNP (5+, 6+). Too OP in spite of being inferior to a 3++.
Big changes in my mind to how I was planning on structuring an Ork army (full back field arrival turn 1). Good thing I waited. I figured that would change.
TedNugent wrote: Kommandos just took a huge nerf. Can only infiltrate in your deployment zone on turn 1 now, unless you want to wait until turn 2.
That also indirectly affects da jump, because in order to do so the unit being jumped would be completely isolated turn 1.
Grotsnik also just lost his dual-FNP (5+, 6+). Too OP in spite of being inferior to a 3++.
Big changes in my mind to how I was planning on structuring an Ork army (full back field arrival turn 1). Good thing I waited. I figured that would change.
TedNugent wrote: Kommandos just took a huge nerf. Can only infiltrate in your deployment zone on turn 1 now, unless you want to wait until turn 2.
That also indirectly affects da jump, because in order to do so the unit being jumped would be completely isolated turn 1.
Grotsnik also just lost his dual-FNP (5+, 6+). Too OP in spite of being inferior to a 3++.
Big changes in my mind to how I was planning on structuring an Ork army (full back field arrival turn 1). Good thing I waited. I figured that would change.
where did you read that?
It's in the newly released FAQ at the bottom of the page.
JimOnMars wrote: It looks like chain mob rule is gone. You no longer can use the leadership of the next-door unit, only it's model count. This means the big blob can't spread it's LD30 everywhere, just to the units next to it:
Page 10 – Mob Rule
Change the rule to read:
‘When using the Leadership characteristic of this unit,
you can use either its own Leadership characteristic,
or you can choose for the characteristic to be equal to
either the number of models in the unit, or the number
of models in another friendly unit within 6" that has
this ability.’
I don't see how this changes anything. You could not chain the mob rule even with the old wording.
Storm boys no longer die when they advance by a warlord- huge change
Smite spam is nerfed but Capped at 11 so still doable
Chinork is open topped makes it our best transport
Meka dread now has all the options of a mega dread, this means rattler kannons or kill kannons or dual klaws with an extra atk, combined with kff or mega charger or bomb racks (I’m sad no supa skorcha)
I kinda wish they gave some matched play points options for stuff like the kill krusha, their gun options look a lot better than the kill blasta and the kill bursta guns.
I still have a question regarding the Meka dread option for the kill saw... they still sell the saw but it has no stats. It’s alsk weird you choose between bolters/rokkits or mega charga/kff. When both bodies have both options.
pismakron wrote: Woohoo warbikers can advance and charge if close to a warboss now, and Stormboyz can advance and charge without dying if close to a Warboss. Awesome.
Considering the massive nerf to deep strike armies being able to still da jump a 30 man unit of choppa boys backed up by zhardsnark with several Squads of stormsboyz (moving, advancing, and charging) without losing models is nice.
Add in a few chinorks with tankbustas and some turn 2 kommandos with multiple burnas. We still have a decent army list.
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BAN wrote: So does this make warbikers more tempting? Could be nice combined with a load of stormboyz and a warbosses on bike
The rules for those discontinued units look pretty sweet and gives me some hope that GW actually have a clue how Orks need to be changed to be effective.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ruins are now unchargeable. Thoughts? ...........................................................................................
I read your post here but can't find what you are referencing so far. Could you post what that's about.
Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is
entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin,
Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end
its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either
because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or
because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper
levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain
rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.
It's a huge deal, and easily exploitable. This makes second levels on terrain a nightmare for orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Otherwise I would argue that a Warboss on bike with headwoppa is MUCH better than Zhadsnark now, because his rule did not change so he can not advance and charge himself, but the warboss rule did change. And Kommando lists might be dead now.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ruins are now unchargeable. Thoughts? ...........................................................................................
I read your post here but can't find what you are referencing so far. Could you post what that's about.
Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is
entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin,
Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end
its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either
because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or
because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper
levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain
rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.
It's a huge deal, and easily exploitable. This makes second levels on terrain a nightmare for orks.
.
OK. That's how I had thought it would have been played already.
I guess due to my group having played together for so long. Meh.
Well it's a big deal. If there is a second level of a ruin, they will be in cover and totally fill the area to prevent charges. From an orks perspective that is basically immortal. If you've been playing like that already then you must have been having a bad time. I have been using the "wobbly model" rule to argue I am allowed up there, but no longer...
hollow one wrote: Well it's a big deal. If there is a second level of a ruin, they will be in cover and totally fill the area to prevent charges. From an orks perspective that is basically immortal. If you've been playing like that already then you must have been having a bad time. I have been using the "wobbly model" rule to argue I am allowed up there, but no longer...
I see what you mean. I've always played it as, if you cant\'t place your models then you can't end your move in combat. nothing like that has come up in my games yet this edition.
I guess units doing that need to be targets for mortal wound generating units. And auto hit weapons.
That ruling is...quite concerning for me, as it does make stuff like oversized artillery and other units much harder for units like stormboyz to deal with.
We received a very subtle buff in the smite rule, keep it on the hush. For the official smite rule: the fact that the warp charge value increases instead of reducing the dice roll allows us to get super smites more easily. And we are the best army at getting super smites, literally.
However, we are only allowed to take 3 weirdboys now. :(
hollow one wrote: We received a very subtle buff in the smite rule, keep it on the hush. For the official smite rule: the fact that the warp charge value increases instead of reducing the dice roll allows us to get super smites more easily. And we are the best army at getting super smites, literally.
However, we are only allowed to take 3 weirdboys now. :(
Wot? I thought that was only for competitive play not matched play. as in optional and up to any TO's.
The reason my orks are still in boxes is because I'm still fretting over 5" movement speed.
Stormboyz are a thing but they don't synergize with a core boys mob, nor do they synergize with many troops, for example the Weirdboy.
I guess pairing them with bikebosses, painbikes and Zag is a thing, but it seriously agitates my brain thinking of all those clunkers moving up the board at different speeds and trying to remain in various buff circles.
Does anyone have a good battle report they'd recommend showing a list of stormboyz and boyz working together on a tournament size table?
This whole FAQ change just invalidated what I feared, which was Kommando - Da Jump turn 1 board saturation. I was really banking on that for getting out of the buff-bubble and footslog movement nightmare.
Turns out I was right to wait for the codex after all.
So now that the chinork is open topped, what are your plans with it?
Does it make Burna boyz viable? I was thinking of filling one with burna boyz and doing a 24" move t1, dropping a bomm and burnin infantry. I contemplated doing the same with skorcha nobz but the high point cost might not be worth it if the chinork gets shot down.
Definitely loading one up with tankbustas for deepstrike. I've been struggling with vehicles to embark them on. Trukks were too squishy in my meta and supa-skorchas were good but there was some anti-synergy between the positioning I needed for tankbustas and the supa-skorcha.
TedNugent wrote: Kommandos just took a huge nerf. Can only infiltrate in your deployment zone on turn 1 now, unless you want to wait until turn 2.
That also indirectly affects da jump, because in order to do so the unit being jumped would be completely isolated turn 1.
Grotsnik also just lost his dual-FNP (5+, 6+). Too OP in spite of being inferior to a 3++.
Big changes in my mind to how I was planning on structuring an Ork army (full back field arrival turn 1). Good thing I waited. I figured that would change.
Da jump also got nerfed to turn 2 arrival outside DZ...
I\m now debating is da jump even worth it. Do people use it much past turn 1?
And whether to convert kommandos or not now...Problem is now both jumped unit and kommandos are reliably usable by turn 3...
ballzonya wrote: Isn't da jump a psychic power? Why would that effect the deep strike nerf?
in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).
Remove this unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy
models.
The ruling doesn't give an exception Da Jump, and refers to anything that sets up during any point in your first turn. Da Jump removes your units from the battlefield and then they arrive on the battlefield, if you do this in the first turn then they'll now have to be wholly within your deployment zone.
And with any sensible opponent he'll push his screen so far you would be in 2 turns walking closer anyway. About only use for da jump would be precisely to lure enemy closer to ease up t2 charge for your boyz. At least warphead is cheaper than kommando for that and can smite instead if da jump is useless
RAI, I feel strongly that the ruling deals specifically with units arriving from reserves, hence why the section is titled "Tactical Reserves."
A unit that is on the board at the start of turn 1 is not "arriving" in that sense and it is not in reserves.
I think that this requires further clarification as written from the rules writing team, however, since some of the language is similar, (e.g. "set up").
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
Well, I guess I was thinking of Chinorks, Trukks, Wagons, Big Trakks, etc to get smaller units up the board in combination with faster units such as stormboys, warbikes, etc.
I just tend to believe that those units are inferior to full strength boy mobs. However the drawback to big boyz mobs is that they run at a different speed (5" per turn +D6" run) compared to those faster units which makes them seem like an odd pairing to me.
While Chinorks, Wagons, etc, might be inferior to pure footslogging orks, is their greater parity in terms of speed with stormboyz worth that loss of efficiency to warrant their inclusion to move a smaller core of boys up the board?
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
I am not sure of that. Maybe it's because I am not a native Speaker but I think those are 2 separete questions and GW did not intend to nerf those psychic powers.
1. The nerf is for tactital reservers that apear on turn 1.
2. The questions you post is for the puropses of moving and firing heavy weapons, so you treat them as reinforcements but that does not mean that they are reinforcements for the purpose of using a psychic power.
It would be to much of a nerf since you don't get the up in the sky but on the battlefield were they have to take some Shooting on turn 1 (that does not happen to deep strike Units). So my Interpretation is that you only treat them as reinforcements for moving/Shooting purposes, not for deployment.
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons? A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
I am not sure of that. Maybe it's because I am not a native Speaker but I think those are 2 separete questions and GW did not intend to nerf those psychic powers.
1. The nerf is for tactital reservers that apear on turn 1.
2. The questions you post is for the puropses of moving and firing heavy weapons, so you treat them as reinforcements but that does not mean that they are reinforcements for the purpose of using a psychic power.
It would be to much of a nerf since you don't get the up in the sky but on the battlefield were they have to take some Shooting on turn 1 (that does not happen to deep strike Units). So my Interpretation is that you only treat them as reinforcements for moving/Shooting purposes, not for deployment.
Do you agree?
Well if they didn't they need to alter wording. As it is Da Jump REMOVES unit from BATTLEFIELD and then you SET UNIT anywhere ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
Would love to be wrong. Hopefully it is just sloppy writing and GW releases patch quickly.
Also nothing in the answer indicates it's ONLY for that purpose.
hollow one wrote: Well it's a big deal. If there is a second level of a ruin, they will be in cover and totally fill the area to prevent charges. From an orks perspective that is basically immortal. If you've been playing like that already then you must have been having a bad time. I have been using the "wobbly model" rule to argue I am allowed up there, but no longer...
There's no rule saying you can't stack your models bases on your opponents bases when you charge....
Sheesh somebody tries that one and game ends up instantly. No way I let anybody to put bases over my bases and my bases aren't even THAT superb painting.
Anyway game is permissive so there would need to be rule ALLOWING that rather than preventing it.
tneva82 wrote: Sheesh somebody tries that one and game ends up instantly. No way I let anybody to put bases over my bases and my bases aren't even THAT superb painting.
Anyway game is permissive so there would need to be rule ALLOWING that rather than preventing it.
When charging you must move your base to within 1" of the enemy models base. On top is within 1", so you have permission as nowhere says you can't and you are fulfilling the requirement for charging.
There is also no rule saying you can't stack your own bases.
Both of these rules existed in previous iterations of the game. GW is really bad at writing rules.
Yeah tneva, Malus was joking I think. And the rule isn't really up for debate, you can not charge them if they leave you no room to stand. It explicitly states as much.
hollow one wrote: Yeah tneva, Malus was joking I think. And the rule isn't really up for debate, you can not charge them if they leave you no room to stand. It explicitly states as much.
It was certainly tongue in cheek and I wouldn't actually do it unless the person was being a complete dick, but technically, rules as written, if you can place your models on your opponents bases, which is not expressly disallowed and is fulfilling the 'within 1"' requirement for charging, then there is room for you to place models!
hollow one wrote: Yeah tneva, Malus was joking I think. And the rule isn't really up for debate, you can not charge them if they leave you no room to stand. It explicitly states as much.
Well we do have GW game where core rules specifically allowed that and indeed without house ruling was REQUIRED for some models to attack each other...
The new tactical reserves rule does not affect turn 1 Da Jump, because the unit was already on the battlefield. They don't 'arrive' on the battlefield.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).
Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Jidmah wrote: Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Ha! Excellent! Someone please draw a picture of a battlewagon mowing down marines on the top of a ruin
Can just see it now, the battlewagon launching off debris and sailing over the ruin, the marines staring in disbelief as the dethrolla flies towards them....
Pepin wrote: The new tactical reserves rule does not affect turn 1 Da Jump, because the unit was already on the battlefield. They don't 'arrive' on the battlefield.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).
Problem is they are removed and then set up again. GW being sloppy we don't know thus does this limit them or not. What we know is that Da Jump etc counts as coming from reserves as per FAQ.
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Jidmah wrote: Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
Chinork could be alternative. Bit flimsier but faster and with advance can bring them 24" ahead(albeit ith -1 to hit which IS bad idea often). Or if you can afford waiting bring in T2 deep strike thus giving you safe arrival.
Quackzo wrote: So now that the chinork is open topped, what are your plans with it?
Does it make Burna boyz viable? I was thinking of filling one with burna boyz and doing a 24" move t1, dropping a bomm and burnin infantry. I contemplated doing the same with skorcha nobz but the high point cost might not be worth it if the chinork gets shot down.
The answer to "can burna boyz do this?" is always "no" for 8th edition. With 10 burnas you will get 20 hits, which just barely kills a unit of GEQ.
You could put two units of burnas in there and buy 3 spannas with kombi-skorchas for each. That's a little cheaper than nobz.
The next best thing I can think about would be flash gits, they get less hits than skorcha nobz, but are cheaper and have better AP.
Definitely loading one up with tankbustas for deepstrike. I've been struggling with vehicles to embark them on. Trukks were too squishy in my meta and supa-skorchas were good but there was some anti-synergy between the positioning I needed for tankbustas and the supa-skorcha.
I think this is the way to go. Three chinorks deep striking turn 2 and unloading rokkits and bomb squigs will leave a lasting impression. Just make sure your opponent can't table you turn one.
Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.
Though good point on tank bustas...Too bad chinork model costs arm and teeth and haven't found cheaper alternative.
It's basically half a trukk and two deff koptas. Buy some deff koptas on ebay, hack up a trukk kit and build one your own. That's not going to be more difficult than building the same thing out of FW resin.
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tneva82 wrote: Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.
Any chaff but guardsmen will not be removed by those hits though. Either they have good saves like scouts or path finders, or they have plenty of spare models, like pox walkers, horrors or cultists.
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
What if a trukk drives on it's backwheels? It has an awesome spikey front ram that looks like it's designed to bite into the 2d floor.
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
What if a trukk drives on it's backwheels? It has an awesome spikey front ram that looks like it's designed to bite into the 2d floor.
Or hell, a "Monsta Trukk" with massive wheels and suspension resulting in the hull being raised quite a way up.
Jidmah wrote: It's basically half a trukk and two deff koptas. Buy some deff koptas on ebay, hack up a trukk kit and build one your own. That's not going to be more difficult than building the same thing out of FW resin.
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tneva82 wrote: Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.
Any chaff but guardsmen will not be removed by those hits though. Either they have good saves like scouts or path finders, or they have plenty of spare models, like pox walkers, horrors or cultists.
Scouts will lose 5 guys as well. That's not that bad hole. Better hole creator per points than many other choices orks have. What shooting you would be using to clear chaff then? Not shoota boyz at least.
Trukk+ebay koptas also doesn't sound cheap. Resin is dirt easy to work on. Problem is price.
I don't think my Kommando army is dead yet, but we definitely just took a beating with this ridiculous FAQ. Not only did they screw us on basically every rule change but they didn't even have the decency to throw us a bone like lowering the cost of some units like Warbikes or Battlewagonz.
Kommando rush will still work but it now relies HEAVILY on LOS blocking terrain and the ability to get units completely hidden before the first turn. This can be a very annoying tactic against gunline armies who hate to have to move their line in order to get any kind of LOS.
I have found that slow playing (not in the sense you take longer then you should to complete your turn) your units is better then bum rushing the enemies units turn 1. I have had several games against Imperial gun lines where I hid ALL my units in LOS blocking terrain, or out of range of their best weapons, so what did my opponent do? well two things, some just sat there and waited a full turn not doing anything, while I meanwhile maneuvered my forces into better positions and capping objectives or the other thing they do is MOVE there expensive gun lines to get into a position to shoot one or two units, this is perfect because it usually opens up a hole in there defensive screen and they forget that I have 90 Kommandos who can appear turn 2-3.
Unfortunately, this is going to be harder now because I am FORCED to wait until turn 2 to use them and can no longer immediately exploit my opponents poor deployments :(
Scouts in cover will only lose 2 models. Scouts in the open can be killed by random sluggas and shootas.
30 shoota boyz get 20 hits just like burnas, except they have 18" range and cost less. Lootas are almost as good as burnas (better if you spend the CP), and still cheaper, and KMK completely blows them out of the water.
Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.
You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?
Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?
Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)
Jidmah wrote: Scouts in cover will only lose 2 models. Scouts in the open can be killed by random sluggas and shootas.
30 shoota boyz get 20 hits just like burnas, except they have 18" range and cost less. Lootas are almost as good as burnas (better if you spend the CP), and still cheaper, and KMK completely blows them out of the water.
All of them have more than 8" range.
Those burnas have 32" range. Plus shooting from copter. Plus smaller footprint allowing concentration of firepower
My ork list recently did every good at a maelstrom tournament. I got 6/16 and best Xenos player, beating out tau, eldar, and another ork player.
My list was a battalion and supreme command detachment.
Battalion
big mek on bike
weirdboy
2x 12boy squad with nob + pk 2x 10 boy squad with nob + pk
elite
painboy
nob with banner
heavy support
lootas x10
big trakk with supa skorcha
battlewagon with ard case, killkannon and deffrolla
dedicated transports
4x trukks with big shootas
supreme command
Ghazaghkull
warboss with pk and attack squig
warboss with relic axe and attack squig
elite
7 nobz. 2 pk and 3 big chopas.
I went 1-1-1. Tie against salamander list. Won against necron list. lost against Guilliman list. Score 6pts in game 1, 12 points in game 2, and 16 points in round 3.
Question: Is there a specific rule/terrain type known as "Ruins"? 'cause I could imagine that being very specific to something that, say, you're allowed to 'knock down', as opposed to 'all 2 or more level terrain'.
Just wondering for anyone complaining about the no charge if you can’t physically fit your model on ruins issue... did you guys play this any different before? Outside of wobbly model syndrome... I’ve always played you need to be within 1in to attack someone. That is literally what the conclusion of you make da call was before as well!! You need to have a model fit near the unit you are charging. If you have an issue then shoot a model off for room. Personally I’m not into the whole measuring from base to base and I think the rules should be model to model from any point. That way if you model is one level below or a monstrous creature that can’t go on ruins you should still be able to charge a unit. I don’t see a reason to measure base to base unless that’s the closest point of the models.
Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.
Gruxz wrote: Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.
3 det limit is also suggestiok. Never played anywhere where it wasn't used. Also smite was also beta rule. In use from day 1. This also will be use right away.
Got game against sisters of battle with storm troopers in. I had 3 warboss, mek, weirdboy, battlewagon with meganobz, tank bustas, one warboss and painboy, 3x30 boys, 25 stormboyz, 3 kmk, dredd. He had tons of small sister units with lots of meltas, 12 heavy bolters, several scion blocks, big and small seraphim, several characters.
Diagonal dep, kill courier, acid rain.
In short i got shot. He hadn't heard of faq so we were only table without it. I jumped boyz forward, tried charge. Act of faith, 3 units shoot, boyz die as did wagon.
I charged with stormboyz, killed lot but still didn#t reach with foot boyz due to hills that funneled me. He counter attacked and shot killing meganobz, all stormboyz and 2/3 of boyz that used insane courage.
Warboss, hurt squad and last mob charged killing stuff but then time was up. His courier was about 30 sisters away, mine was running away from scions. No way i could kill, he would have been unlucky to not finish my front line and corner courier.
Ouch. Was almost outnumbered by sisters and storm troopers.
Gruxz wrote: Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.
3 det limit is also suggestiok. Never played anywhere where it wasn't used. Also smite was also beta rule. In use from day 1. This also will be use right away.
You talk about theory. Only real practice matters
You'll recall that the smite beta rule had a different wording (-1 modifier) to the current approved version (+1 base warp charge cost). Also the approved version has now made exceptions for mini-smites like Grey Knights. That's a big deal. Just goes to show that beta rules are indeed beta, and might not be set-in-stone. So it's not out of the question that players/tournys might choose NOT to implement beta rules, especially now that GW has shown us they're willing to budge according to player feedback.
Yes it was changed. Doesn't change the fact it was universally adopted on day 1.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Guys, if I place my Boyz literally on the turret of the Battlewagon, if they're within 1" of the enemy on top floor of a ruins can they attack?
This is madness, the ruins ruling is unbelievably stupid. We should be able to attack up and down 1 floor. Simple, effective, fair.
Can't put model top of model. Bw can attack, boy is elsewhere
This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.
It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.
I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.
Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.
ajax_xaja wrote: This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.
It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.
I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.
Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.
eh, the FAQ specifically calls out being removed from the table and then redeployed via spells...
eh, the FAQ specifically calls out being removed from the table and then redeployed via spells...
Not in the 'Tactical Reserves' section or whatever which is what has everyone's panties in a twist.
In fact, RAW there is nothing stopping you DaJumping across board turn 1. Only the most beardy would argue otherwise and it's an interpretation based on assumptions.
ajax_xaja wrote: This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.
It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.
I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.
Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.
Nothing is "pretty damn obvious".
You know what I thought was fething obvious? BattleWagon's "Mobile Fortress" applying to units inside - aka the transport, and the occupants, don't suffer -1 to hit if the BattleWagon moves; I thought "hey, if the BattleWagon is ignoring the modifier, there's no modifier to pass on to the units inside" and "it makes sense, it would allow it to be a gun platform for shooty units; a veritable "mobile fortress" if you will"; but no - GW screwed Orks over.
This isn't the only ruling where something you think is the way it'll go, because it would make sense, was ruled opposite of what the RAI were thought to be.
What is "pretty damn obvious" however, is that Ork units LEAVE the battlefield, and are PLACED back onto it - the EXACT same way deepstrikers and other such abilities work.
I'm still amazed by the fact that Big Mek's can't repair vehicles they're embarked into.
They just keep marginalizing Mek units further and further into irrelevance.
ajax_xaja wrote: This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.
It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.
I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.
Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.
From the BRBFAQ:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity
psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements
^ As written that's just not avoidable.
Shrapnelbait wrote: No complaints about only being allowed 3 KMKs? People were spamming them in their lists were they not?
That is migated by each KMK slot giving you 6 so you can field 18 KMK if you want(and have money). Albeit does mean there's no point fielding 2 or more spearheads but battallion + spearhead ought to be enough for most. You want that battallion for 5 CP anyway. If you field multiple grot squads maybe even 2 battalions rather than battalion+spearhead.
Oh and having to deploy close to each others in same squadron is bit of a bummer. Harder to spread them around.
I'm inclined to believe that RAW you can not Da Jump turn 1. But I reckon RAI you are. It's a bit of a YMDC situation, might need some clarification. Consider how people used "Auspex Scan" vs Da Jump, I had some opponents insist they were arriving as reinforcements and they could shoot, and I had a TO agree with that as well. It's probably likely Da Jump isn't currently allowed turn 1.
Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.
You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?
Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?
Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)
You can disembark 3" away from the hull of a BW. So if you buttress your BW against the top level of a building, you get 3" deep of boys on that level. But realistically this is not something you'll ever do. The ruin will not fit 20 boys in 3" deep, and you'll have to deploy most of them on the floor level. It sounds cute and useful, but in reality it is an extreme corner case that is not easily exploitable. Additionally you will not be able to disembark if the enemy fills the entire level up, since you can't stand there when you aim to charge. So the immortal units sitting on level 2 of a ruins is still a problem, fancy BW disembarking or not.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Major ITC tournament TO ruling no Da Jump turn 1. *mouth fart sound*
Yeah that follows my auspex scan experience. Everyone considers Jumping units as reinforcements. We would need a specific FAQ that addresses this exact scenario, and it would likely be considered an exception, for us to jump turn1.
Who cares what a single TO rules? Unless GW put something out its irrelevant.
The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.
Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GWFAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.
The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.
Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GWFAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.
I would argue that the precedent for all other considerations of removing the board and putting them back is always considering them as reserves (e.g. when considering movement, when considering heavy weapons, when considering buffs, when considering opposing stratagems etc), I would find it very unlikely that this situation is any different. If I wanted to jump turn 1, I wouldn't know what rule to point at if they started pointing at all the FAQs that tell me my boys count as reserves...
edit: If i'm honest I would probably lose the "turn 4 dajump kills boyz" arguement if someone was trying to play it RAW. But as I said, RAI im sure this is considered an exception much like turn 4 jumping. But no where in any rule book does it make that clear.
I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.
What am I missing?
If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.
The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.
Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GWFAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.
Because that's setting precedence when RAW already supports that...
And the FAQ answer doesn't make any indication it is ONLY for that.
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r_squared wrote: I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.
What am I missing?
If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.
You remove unit from table. You then set it up. Unit is no longer on the battlefield when you da jump it before setting it there.
The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.
Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GWFAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.
Because that's setting precedence when RAW already supports that...
And the FAQ answer doesn't make any indication it is ONLY for that.
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r_squared wrote: I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.
What am I missing?
If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.
You remove unit from table. You then set it up. Unit is no longer on the battlefield when you da jump it before setting it there.
RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.
Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.
RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.
Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.
RAW does support it. And again the FAQ response makes no indication it's only for that. Aaaaand whole T1 limitation makes zero reference that it only applies to tactical reserves. It says it applies to units ARRIVING to battlefield on turn 1. Da Jump units are arriving to the battlefield on turn 1 if it's cast on turn 1.
You WERE on battlefield but then you LEFT the battlefield. And then you ARRIVE to battlefield again.
Just because I was at work in the day doesn't mean I'm at work after I have left the work. However when I arrive to work next day I'm...well look at that ARRIVING.
RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.
Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.
RAW does support it. And again the FAQ response makes no indication it's only for that. Aaaaand whole T1 limitation makes zero reference that it only applies to tactical reserves. It says it applies to units ARRIVING to battlefield on turn 1. Da Jump units are arriving to the battlefield on turn 1 if it's cast on turn 1.
You WERE on battlefield but then you LEFT the battlefield. And then you ARRIVE to battlefield again.
Just because I was at work in the day doesn't mean I'm at work after I have left the work. However when I arrive to work next day I'm...well look at that ARRIVING.
This has got to be one of the most stupid arguments in the history of stupid arguments. "It doesn't say I can't use it for that." is not an indicator that you can. It doesn't say in the overwatch rules that I can apply them to any shooting attack as I want but we all know I can't. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that my warboss can't suddenly decide to start firing pink horrors out of his backside but we all know he can't.
The rules are permissive. You can't take a ruling for one thing and apply it to another, that's not how the game is structured.
RAW doesn't support it at all, as I've explained time and time again. I don't know why you're struggling so hard with this but it might be because you're not even quoting the rule word for word. It says (as I said above) when units 'ENTER THE BATTLEFIELD'. If my unit is already on the battlefield because they've had a psychic power cast on them, they cannot enter again. They've already entered. The rule is also entitled "TACTICAL RESERVES" so something tells me, I reckon, that it applies to "TACTICAL RESERVES".
By your logic my units embarked in transports are automatically destroyed after turn 3. That's not right is it? Of if they enter a transport from turn 4 onward they are also destroyed. Or if they are "Da Jumped" after turn 4 onward they are destroyed. We know all of this is false and they are ideas built on exactly the same assumptions as what you're doing here.
This is unbelievable, honestly.
I can't wait for the official ruling to clarify what we should all know already.
"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
RAW doesn't support it at all, as I've explained time and time again. I don't know why you're struggling so hard with this but it might be because you're not even quoting the rule word for word. It says (as I said above) when units 'ENTER THE BATTLEFIELD'. If my unit is already on the battlefield because they've had a psychic power cast on them, they cannot enter again. They've already entered. The rule is also entitled "TACTICAL RESERVES" so something tells me, I reckon, that it applies to "TACTICAL RESERVES".
Ah so because I left from work I can't enter it again because I have already entered?
You ignore the fact that the unit left the battlefield. It is no longer there. Remove models. Take them to other room.
Then you bring back. What that is if not entering?
What it is when you come to where you aren't? you weren't on battlefield anymore. It's not relocation within battlefield. You aren't there. You can't relocate within something you aren't on.
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ZoBo wrote: "any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.
Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.
You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.
ZoBo wrote: "any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.
Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.
You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.
but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...
ZoBo wrote: "any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.
Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.
You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.
but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...
So? The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere. If you arrive on the first turn you must deploy in the deployment zone.
Unless you are arguing that units undergoing Da Jump don't deploy, in which case how do you place them on the table?
ZoBo wrote: "any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."
in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?
Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.
Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.
You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.
but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...
So? The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere. If you arrive on the first turn you must deploy in the deployment zone.
Unless you are arguing that units undergoing Da Jump don't deploy, in which case how do you place them on the table?
"The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere."
no, it does not specify that. it does however, specify that the unit must be deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone...which it was. and then you use da jump on it to set it up elsewhere on the table...this is what differentiates it from things like deepstrike and such.
Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.
Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote: Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!
"Just"?
I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.
@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.
Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.
You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?
Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?
Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)
You completely misunderstood me.
Assuming you have a GW imperial sector ruin with bottom level, first floor, second floor and a unit of scouts is completely covering the second floor, so any model with a base trying to charge up the ruin cannot come within 1" of them.
If you now declare a charge with your battlewagon, you simply park it in front of the ruin, with the long side of the battlewagon touching the ruin wall. It does not move up any level, because as a vehicle, it is explicitly forbidden from doing so. The battlewagon does not have a base, therefore you measure from its hull. When you measure from the base from one of the scouts to the turret, you'll find that the battlewagon is within 1" of the scout and has thus succeeded its charge. The battlewagon driver then proceeds to unattach the deff-rolla from the battlewagon, carry it to the top of the ruin and smash the scouts with it.
Disclaimer: Exact placement of the battlewagon depends on each specific ruin, but with most ruins you can find a way to get within 1", since some of the enemy models need to be very close to walls and edges to block any enemy models from moving up.
It works the same way for disembarking. For example, if someone has a screen sitting in cover on the bottom floor of a ruin, you can disembark into the first level of the same ruin without moving the battlewagon within 1" of the screen, assuming you can fit all the models within 3" of your battlewagon model. This works with any model that does not have a base.
It's also important to note that you are not allowed to move models onto other models for any reason. Therefore orks cannot stand on the wagon in order charge up a ruin.
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hollow one wrote: We should just take this to YMDC. Both sides have valid points.
Now that the Meka dread has most of the options for the mega dread added in the faq and forgeworld has a free shipping on orders of £100. I want to order a Meka dread (w mega dread body since I think it looks better). I think I’m getting the kill kannon arm as it’s a great stand in for rattler or killkannon arm and I believe those are the best weapons for the Meka dread but should I pick up the kill saw arm or the klaw? I’m leaning toward the klaw becuase it looks better imho and kill saw doesn’t have rules yet but I think it may in the future. So what do you guys think is the best loadout? And is the mega charga ability and KFF a free option since they have no points profile? So it’s 255pts for a Meka dread with killkannon a rippa klaw and Kff?
I think the chinork is by far our best transport for tankbustas. I just have no desire to spend a ridiculous amount on hard to build resin models that may not have a use when they decide to discontinue it. At least the Meka/mega dread is a decent standin for an exceptionally large deff dread. I also only need one of them to form either a good melee unit or a great Kff bubble unit.
Warboss on bike w headchoppa
20x stormboys (nob w bc)
Zhardsnark
Meka dread w kff, killkannon and rippa
Chinork x2
Tankbustas x2 8+2 squig
30 boys plus 10 boys nobs w bc (use mob up strat and jump them)
Weirdboy (da jump)
Kmk x4
That seems like a relatively decent base for an army list.
2 warboss bikers and storm boys with a kff moving Meka dread. Should be enough melee ability and durable bullet sponge.
The 40 boy blob should be fairly durable too.
Yeah, we really have to wait for an official word from GW on the Da Jump ruling. I can honestly see validity to both sides of the argument, and unfortunately it is not clear as mud because GW has consistently shown that they do not know how to write clear rules. My hope is that abilities such as Da Jump are still useful turn 1, but I can honestly see GW going either way with an official ruling.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
(mine has a silly count of six killed tau hover tanks)
);
