Big n Stompy, I likes it! Of course I can't speak as to it's efficacy.

 Glitcha wrote:
I'm taking dread mob to a tournament this weekend. I can't win since i'm a field judge. So I figured I would try them out. Here is my list

Spearhead
HQ BigMek in mega armor KFF

Heavy support
Deff dreads x3
Kans x4
Meka-dread with KFF
Gorkanaut

Vanguard
Big Mek with KFF

Elite
Kommandos x14 with pk nob, 2 burnas
Kommandos x14 with pk nob, 2 burnas
Nob with Waagh Banner

Flyer:
Dakka jet with 6 gunz

Thoughts?

Looks fun, will look cool on the table and be fun to play against! Try to win best sportsman

 davou wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I'm taking dread mob to a tournament this weekend. I can't win since i'm a field judge. So I figured I would try them out. Here is my list

Spearhead
HQ BigMek in mega armor KFF

Heavy support
Deff dreads x3
Kans x4
Meka-dread with KFF
Gorkanaut

Vanguard
Big Mek with KFF

Elite
Kommandos x14 with pk nob, 2 burnas
Kommandos x14 with pk nob, 2 burnas
Nob with Waagh Banner

Flyer:
Dakka jet with 6 gunz

Thoughts?

Looks fun, will look cool on the table and be fun to play against! Try to win best sportsman

I can not. I'm a judge for the tournament. Doesn't mean I'll be TFG to everyone. I'll play nice while smashin, bashin, and stompin around.

I also made a tweak to the list.

List is nice, the megarmor on the big mek is the only thing I'd really cut.

To be more competitive drop the dreads and add more kanz and mek gunz, but if you like those walkers you can surely fun with this list.

So I tweaked my list on page 150 and 151. You will notice that I have kans in units of 1 and my kommand squads are now squads of 9 models. These is for couple of reason. The main reason is the event I'm taking these to is an ITC event. Remember part of the game is list building and forcing your opponent to do something they don't want to do.

first, there is not enough characters in my list to give full points for head hunter. King slayer would not award enough points either.

second, no squad is 10 models with means reaper is uselss against this list. Yes I can not mob up, but this is effecting score options.

third, gang buster is not a good option either.

The only secondaries I can think of worth taking against me would be old school, recon, and death by thousand cuts. Could take big game hunter, but you would only earn 3 points for it. Same for head hunter.

I also gain a couple benefits with the tweak. I have a 3rd squad of kommandos now and the kans are now individual. Which will make them hard to deal with since my opponent will now have to figure out how much fire power to dedicate to kill a kan. ( no pun intended.)

With the Meka-Dread I like to use the Mega Charger.
It gives a decent chance of a first turn charge, which will work nicely along side the Kommandos.

Maybe drop some walker to have 3 units of gretchin for screening an more cp?

Otherwise, is there a reason to field one big mek in MA, or is it just model availability?

Why nave not any of the Ork infantry models got the 32mm bigger base? I am thinking in the Nobz and the Stormboyz in particular. I plan to get a new unit of 30 Stormboyz and I would hate to have to rebase them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Maybe drop some walker to have 3 units of gretchin for screening an more cp?

Otherwise, is there a reason to field one big mek in MA, or is it just model availability?

The them for the list is walkers, so i'll pass on taking grots.

The big mek in MA is my warlord one and model availability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
With the Meka-Dread I like to use the Mega Charger.
It gives a decent chance of a first turn charge, which will work nicely along side the Kommandos.

I would take the mega charger on the meka-dread if he was all CC arms, but I'm using him as a mobile gun platform and support unit. I would take a Morkanaut instead, but the meka dread is cheaper.

Nora wrote:
Why nave not any of the Ork infantry models got the 32mm bigger base? I am thinking in the Nobz and the Stormboyz in particular. I plan to get a new unit of 30 Stormboyz and I would hate to have to rebase them.

I've mounted my Stormboyz on 32mm
I was tired of them falling over, the 25mm is too small for them.
Much better on 32mm

25 is so much better. You can fit FOUR rows of boyz in 1 combat instead of 2 rows. HUGE difference

Assuming you can actually fit the models

?

You can literally always put 4 models in base contact...

25 mm is a huge advantage for boyz. The only exception is when you want to block a transport from disembarking it's passengers. In that case 32 mm is a substantial advantage. Weighing down your bases is mandatory in either case.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
?

You can literally always put 4 models in base contact...

Some boyz models (especially the AOBR due to their slotted bases) are sometimes hard to fit in BTB because the model is so much larger than the base. More of an annoyance than a problem though.

I played a friendly game against eldar yesterday. Turn 4 he gave up. here is the list.

Ghaz
Weirdboy (jump)

Painboy
15 kommandos (nob/bc 2 burnas)
15 kommandos (nob/bc 2 burnas)

30 boyz (nob/BC)
30 boyz (nob/BC)
30 boyz (nob/BC)

Stormboyz x 21 (Nob)
Stormboyz x 21 (Nob)

It was very touch and go for a bit until my weirdboy and Ghaz got in range, then it was game over. The weirdboy one shot his Warlord with Smite and Ghaz took out a pair of warlocks and a squad of Wraithguard on his own while the stormboyz tied down units and my jumped boyz did likewise. Kommandos were immediately targeted for destruction because my META is now rightfully petrified of them. This still worked to my advantage though because he wasted precious reinforcements targeting what amounts to 15 boyz.

End of turn 4 he conceded because he could definitely have gotten half the objectives, there was no way he was going to be able to get line breaker, slay the warlord, and I had already gotten 1st blood.

So what I took away from this game is that Eldar aren't as scary as they once were, that is, most of their units aren't Super OP cheese. They do have special rules though that basically allow them to ignore most of the rules of the game. Rerolling psychic tests, rerolling charge ranges, moving after deep striking, shooting after falling back. And while annoying, most of this doesn't help against orkz because the units are so expensive they are only good against more Elite armies. He even told me flat out that he needed way more cheap infantry to deal with my horde.

How did ghaz perform in your lists? I mean not necessarily in the game you described, in which he definitely had his moment of glory, but does he usually get his points back?

I've always considered him a bit overrated in this edition. What about a biker boss, a painboy and weirdboy with warpath instead of ghaz? Basically the same amount of points.

Eldar are super good against armored stuff, since they're best unit is a dedicated anti tank tool. They have the tools to deal with hordes though, but they're usually more concerned about big stuff and green tides may surprise them.

Played a cracking game tonight, 500 points vs 3 ultramarine dreadnoughts including a redemptor and contemptor using;

Unbound.

Snikrot
15 kommandos
3 rokkit buggies
Wazbom blatsa jet.

It was a fun list that actually did some good work. The blasta jet does great stuff against t7 vehicles, the smasha kannon hitting on 4s, -4 ap wounding on 2d6 vs target toughness, backed up by 2x kustom mega blastas is actually suprisingly effective. The jet took 3 rounds of shooting before being taken down but hammered all but 1 wound off the redemptor, the rokkit buggies took out the last wound, and my kommandos leapt on the objective turn 7 to secure 6 vps and the win.

I may take the wazbom blasta jet again it could be useful as a character sniper and against most vehicles. Any one else use it?

Played a casual 1000 pt game yesterday. Speedfreaks vs witch cult.

Orks had:
Biker boss with k-skorcha and relic choppa
Badrukk with 3 ammo runts
6 nobz with 6 ammo runts in a trukk
10 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs in a trukk
3 bigshoota buggies
3 burna buggies

DE had:
Succubus with relic pistol that steals life
Succubus with blast pistol
2 * 9 witches with special weapon girls in raiders
4 cabalites in venom
5 ravagers, one with blaster pistol
A Plane (not a voidraven but the one with d6 rockets)

Dark eldar got first turn, put some wounds here and there, killed a buggy.
Orks than tried to move forward to capture objectives and shoot something but 5++ save was hot and orks only managed a couple wounds to a venom. Buggies charged ravagers but wiffed and got no wounds in, instead lost a buggy to mellee.
Than DE took out Badrukk with a plane, finished off a buggy and put a couple more wounds here and there, scored a couple points.
Orks scored some more points, dealt a ton of damage to a plane with lucky tankbusta shots and skorcha trakks, 5++ was brilliant again and it saved 9 out of 13 wounds only taking 4 wounds.
Witches moved forward the nob trukk than shooting exploded it killing some DE and witches + succubus killed nobz after some poison shot spreading in general nob direction.
Orks in return burned the witches with skorchas, finally shot down the plane with tankbustas, charged a succubus but warboss only dealt 1 wound and took 5 in return. Those succubus hit hard.
Succubus fell back, de finished off a warboss, wrecked tankbusta's trukk, finished off tankbustas, that managed to wreck a venom on overwatch and proceeded to plink at skorcha buggies, also tying them up in mellee.
Buggies fell back on a point to score some more lucky maelstorm objectives.
Witch cult than proceeded chasing down skorcha buggies wrecking all but one that continued to fall back.
And...the game ended on turn 6.

Witch cult had 2 raiders, 2 succubus, full witch squad and almost unharmed ravagers. Orks had a semi-dead burna buggy left. But as the game ended early, orks had a 2 point advantage thanks to lucky maelstorm cards. So, it was a super unexpected ork win. Still a fun casual game. Was cool. Though, i honestly expected more from speedfreaks. The only unit that did anything other than movement, scoring and drawing fire were tankbustas. And still, they hardly payed off across the game.

 koooaei wrote:


Though, i honestly expected more from speedfreaks. The only unit that did anything other than movement, scoring and drawing fire were tankbustas. And still, they hardly payed off across the game.

Nice game indeed, and I also love wych cult armies, but your speedfreaks list was basically a pure shooty one, maybe with boyz in trukks and/or stormboyz I think they could perform better.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


Though, i honestly expected more from speedfreaks. The only unit that did anything other than movement, scoring and drawing fire were tankbustas. And still, they hardly payed off across the game.

Nice game indeed, and I also love wych cult armies, but your speedfreaks list was basically a pure shooty one, maybe with boyz in trukks and/or stormboyz I think they could perform better.

It's hard to say. Mellee speed freaks aren't that great against dark eldar. Simply because eldar are much faster and shootier, so they can easilly play a run and shoot game for at least 2 first turns by which time your forces would be severely depleted. And than even witches would be able to finish orks off. We also played with a houserule that witches have +1 attack.

About buggies and skorchas. I've never tried them before and they're kinda identical to bikers in performance, it seems. Quite underwhelming and only really good to score points and provide enemy +1 to first turn rolls. Yes, in the end skorcha buggy was the only thing that managed to survive simply because it's vehicle and the enemy had a plane shot down and most of his other weapons were poisoned. So, it's hard to really tell how good are they. All i can say is that flamers tend to be all or nothing thing. They did a total of 0 wounds when i needed them to do at least something and than almost wiped a witch squad when it was allready too late. Though, witches are quite easy to wipe with shooting, so it's not something to write home about. Statystically, a skorcha buggy kills around 1.17 marines, so will start to pay off after 3-4 turns. But keep in mind that they can do nothing in the first most important game turn where the game is usually decided. So, meh.

The only positive thing were tankbustas in a trukk. I'd probably be better off if i took noting but tankbustas in trukks.

I don't understand why you expected much from a Speed Freeks list?

We know our transports are expensive for what they are. Bugges and Trakks are efficient but aren't going to win games.

You didn't have a single unit of Warbikers? My inner Speed Freek is menacingly revving his engine.

Dread mob was not a good choice for the ITC format. First game kind of ruined the day for me. My opponent dropped 45 electro priest with staff weapons 3" away from me with some strat. These guys are crazy good. Killed basically everything on the table except for my jet. I made the decision to just get the game over with and not deploy any kommandos. Watching some of my favorite models basically not even fight was not fun. My 2nd game was more fun, but in the end I lost. I saw better luck in round 3 managing a win, but it was close game.

day two of the tournament, I had to drop out. Day one I was a floor judge. Helping to judge games near me. By day 2 we had more than a couple unsportsman like issues came up and another active judge was need to judge the last two rounds. Nothing serious but we wanted to make sure it didn't become something serious.

Well the first list relies on:
1. Going first
2. You not having a screen.

BTW, any idea why people use Dakkajets instead of burna bumbers? Burna bombers seem a lot more scary to me.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
BTW, any idea why people use Dakkajets instead of burna bumbers? Burna bombers seem a lot more scary to me.

6 supa shootas vs 2 (and a twin big) gives you more freedom of movement, greater reliable range damage, and greater character assassination. The unit is just more flexible. This probably outweighs the advantage of a higher chance of exploding and mortal wounds on infantry.

Pretty much that. You aren't forced to move on top of the enemy army with dakka jets, so you might keep them a little longer.

Dakkajets will do a lot of damage if left alone over the course or a game, and have a lot of targeting versatility, but burna bombers need an ideal target for their bombs to reach peak effectiveness and if left alone won’t do squat, so in some cases you depend on your opponent shooting them down.

Other than filling out fast attack slots, or avoiding FW if it's not allowed, is there any reason to ever take a DeffKopta over an empty Chinork?

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Other than filling out fast attack slots, or avoiding FW if it's not allowed, is there any reason to ever take a DeffKopta over an empty Chinork?

fluff, but otherwise no. Koptas are about 50% over priced. They effectively do as much dmg in CC as a terminator if you pay for the Klaw, but cost more then twice as much (closer to 3 times as much) ohh, and they have a weaker save which reduces their durability compared to terminators who can at least survive plasma and other anti-tank weaponry due to a good save/Invuln.

I use my dakka jet basically as a specture gun ship on close air support duty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Other than filling out fast attack slots, or avoiding FW if it's not allowed, is there any reason to ever take a DeffKopta over an empty Chinork?

fluff, but otherwise no. Koptas are about 50% over priced. They effectively do as much dmg in CC as a terminator if you pay for the Klaw, but cost more then twice as much (closer to 3 times as much) ohh, and they have a weaker save which reduces their durability compared to terminators who can at least survive plasma and other anti-tank weaponry due to a good save/Invuln.

The deffkoptas come with bombs for free now. Which I think makes them more valuable. You outflank 5 of these, fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

The warkopta would be better if it had the hard to hit special rule, hover mode, and could move and shoot its heavy weapons with no negative. At best, its a landspeeder with heavy weapons and can trans port 10 models. You could use it to drop a unit on turn 2 earliest on the table some where. It doesn't have the open top rule like it used to have so you can't use it to transport a shooty unit.

Personally, last edition I used to to deep strike my burna boyz and put 10 burns into someone while inside. Basically a ork version of a heldrake, Local players hated that thing with a passion.

 Glitcha wrote:

You outflank 5 of these (deffkoptas), fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

You can't do it because outflanking is not a move but a deployment option. So, you simply appear 12"(iirc) within the board edge and 9"+ away from enemy models. No bomb drops on turn you outflank.

 Glitcha wrote:
The deffkoptas come with bombs for free now. Which I think makes them more valuable. You outflank 5 of these, fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

Even if you could do that, were talking about roughly 3 mortal wounds from bombs and three to four rokkits hits for just a little less than 400 points.

Makes a morkanaut look cheap as chips.

5 Deffkoptas also have no morale mitigation of their own and rely on units within 6”. The ideal target for the bombs is a unit of 5 TEQ, but unless you’re against pure GK any unit like that should be screened, in a transport, or out of range. Even if you gib a bunch of termies, you still probably haven’t quite made your points back, and you’ve subtracted a lot of points away from any alpha strike or objective holders.

Deff Koptas do mortal wounds on 5+ I believe, and when armed with Rokkitz and Klaw they are like 90pts so 5 of them you are investing 450pts into a unit that can't shoot, cant assault and has a one and done bomb that does a mortal wound on a 5+......Trust me I LOVE the model, I love the idea of them, but they are just hot garbage. 4+ armor on a model that costs 1.5 to 2.25 as much as a terminator is ridiculous.

Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

 ThePie wrote:
Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

I am not sure how well the mega dread is doing. I havent seen much about it. In my local meta people are saying to stay away from it but thats going to differ base on who you are playing.
if you are jumping boys I am assuming you are jumping them into combat therefore I would say sluga choppa.

 ThePie wrote:
Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

FW hasn't graced us with Mega-dred rules yet in 8th (or looted wagons, or grot bombs, etc.). We do have the mekka-dred which is very similar. I find that using the megacharga can help give a turn one charge and the rattler cannon is a pretty solid gun since the dred has a BS 4+

Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

RiderOrk wrote:
Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

Yes. Currently there is much crying an gnashing of teeth from non Ork players about mass boys lists.

 warhead01 wrote:

RiderOrk wrote:
Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

Yes. Currently there is much crying an gnashing of teeth from non Ork players about mass boys lists.

Lol there is a lot of crying from like 3 people, tops.

The saying could literally not be more true than it is now. Boyz before toyz. Boyz before everything.

Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

 ThePie wrote:
Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

Shooty units like bustas or gitz are fine in trukks since T6 vs T7 is not that different, only S6 and S7 weapons wound on a different result, but not S8 ones which are very common. A trukk is also half the points of a BW so you can spread out your bustas without putting all the eggs in the same basket. Two units of bustas in two trukks tend to perform better than a large blob in a BW, with two trukks you'll also have four more wounds than a single BW, two bigshootas and the ramshackle rule for just +3points. To carry shooty units two trukks are way better than a wagon, there's no competition.

ThePie wrote:Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Currently, all your battlewagons should have 'ard case, T8 is what's keeping them alive. Anything that wants to shoot out of its transport should have a trukk instead.

Don't worry about how to build your model though - the battlewagon is a very modular kit, the ram/deff rolla, the 'ard case and all turrets don't need to be glued on, so you can reconfigure the wagon for each game without needing a single magnet.
The only tricky bits are the "tank-comander"-big shoota and the grabbin' klaw because they are a little top-heavy. If you weigh them down or add some sprue to make them stay in place, you can plug&play those too,
I have no experience with the FW add-ons though.

hollow one wrote:I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

Weirdboyz have no business being near a battlewagon. You would just deny yourself a smite during the turn you are transporting them.
I wouldn't really put any guns on there, since the wagon usually ends up dead or in combat. The kill kannon also isn't good enough to justify the loss in transport capacity, plus you usually want to be advancing your wagons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

More resilient against S4 is even more important. The battle wagon only has a 4+ save, so shooting it with bolters is still a very good way to plonk wounds off it. Cutting that in half usually means the difference between sitting in a crater and a battlewagon deff rolling a bunch of marines.

 Jidmah wrote:

ThePie wrote:Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Currently, all your battlewagons should have 'ard case, T8 is what's keeping them alive. Anything that wants to shoot out of its transport should have a trukk instead.

Don't worry about how to build your model though - the battlewagon is a very modular kit, the ram/deff rolla, the 'ard case and all turrets don't need to be glued on, so you can reconfigure the wagon for each game without needing a single magnet.
The only tricky bits are the "tank-comander"-big shoota and the grabbin' klaw because they are a little top-heavy. If you weigh them down or add some sprue to make them stay in place, you can plug&play those too,
I have no experience with the FW add-ons though.

hollow one wrote:I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

Weirdboyz have no business being near a battlewagon. You would just deny yourself a smite during the turn you are transporting them.
I wouldn't really put any guns on there, since the wagon usually ends up dead or in combat. The kill kannon also isn't good enough to justify the loss in transport capacity, plus you usually want to be advancing your wagons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

More resilient against S4 is even more important. The battle wagon only has a 4+ save, so shooting it with bolters is still a very good way to plonk wounds off it. Cutting that in half usually means the difference between sitting in a crater and a battlewagon deff rolling a bunch of marines.

Hmm alright, all very valid points. A few other questions....

What do you think about putting a super kannon on a battlewagon? Since i was thinking about having a list mixxed with footslogging boys and killakans, having some extra ranged fire support would be nice, the mek gunz are so expensive afterall and it looks cool.

Im worried about how to increase survival on the bw, since my meks will prob be foot slogging with the rest of my army im afraid it will get shot up if advances upp ahead alone, perhaps better to use da jump on it?

I don't have any experience with playing the supa kannon, but on paper it definitely looks ok. The SAG mek from the battleforce can stand next to it and repair it while shooting his SAG at the same range. Might actually work.

All walkers, including kanz, artillery pieces, trukks and planes draw fire from your battlewagon, so if you have enough stuff that your opponent wants to shot with his or her multi-damage weapons, feel free to drive it forward as well. If everything else you have is infantry or bikes, the supa kannon is probably the better option.

Note that you can only jump infantry units, but you could always jump a unit of boyz to distract from the battlewagon.

Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

 ThePie wrote:
Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

Depends on your army comp, but generally you want around two KFF Big Meks to ensure that whatever blobs you have are within the 9" bubble of protection. I wouldn't suggest keeping it behind to protect the Mek Gunz since they're more likely to die from getting charged in combat than from shooting, where the Big Mek won't be able to do much. I would suggest in your case that you have one run with the meka dred and the killa kanz and the other with the boy squads. The Meka dred could also just take a KFF itself, so that you have less babysitting and more extra points to play with if you're low on points.

 ThePie wrote:


What do you think about putting a super kannon on a battlewagon? Since i was thinking about having a list mixxed with footslogging boys and killakans, having some extra ranged fire support would be nice, the mek gunz are so expensive afterall and it looks cool.

I've never tried but it looks very terrbile on paper. 191 points for an average of 2-3 hits at S8 AP-3 3 damage? No thanks, with lesser points you can field 4 KMK which grant an average of 7 hits, same AP and D3 damage, basically you'll get twice the damage output, the KMKs can also split fire since each weapons work as a single unit. They also have way more wounds in total. The supa kannon only has a better range but usually the 36'' range that mek gunz have is enough.

A unit of bustas in a trukk with two bomb squigs have a better damage output than a wagon with supakannon for the same amount of points. It's definitely less resilient but against vehicles is way more effective.

The supa kannon should be something like S10 (probably even more) AP-4 D6 damage at least. Otherwise rokkits and KMKs are way more effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePie wrote:
Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

Usually with two you should cover the entire army. KFFs for mek gunz aren't usually a good idea, the artillery is durable and cheap enough to get its points back without protections. It may need screeners more than invulns or repairs rolls.

 ThePie wrote:
Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Battlewagon really only has two roles. As a delivery system it has 'ard case and deffrolla, after it's contents are dropped off it's time is best spent bumping into MEQ. As a gunboat you absolutely need to have occupants that help supplement dakka, ideally tankbustas. If you don't mind saving a reroll for their number of auti hits then some Burna Boyz could be sweet only because of the negatitive hit modifiers that have got soo popular.

Mind you, if you are going to take one battlewagon then you need an army based around three of them and praying for turn one and also that you are facing somebody not spamming anti tank for some reason. Highly competitive meta's will have anti tank in quantity.

 Rismonite wrote:


Mind you, if you are going to take one battlewagon then you need an army based around three of them and praying for turn one and also that you are facing somebody not spamming anti tank for some reason. Highly competitive meta's will have anti tank in quantity.

Exactly this. When I play my wagons they're always in a list with only T8 and T5 bodies. BWs, nauts, trukks, kanz, buggies/skorchas and artillery, planes could work as well but I don't own any of them yet. I agree it's also very meta dependent, in my area hordes freak out people and massive anti infantry is very common. There isn't anything like the 20-30 dark reapers or the 4x melta dominions spams luckily.

 Rismonite wrote:
If you don't mind saving a reroll for their number of auti hits then some Burna Boyz could be sweet only because of the negatitive hit modifiers that have got soo popular.

Burna boyz don't do jack against things with stacked negative hit modifiers because those things tend to be T5+ and have a 3+ armor save. Auto-hitting doesn't do much when you have to wound on 5+ and then bounce off armor.
You don't really need anything specific to handle infantry with -2 to hit - just run them over with a deff rolla when you are within 9" already.

I have played burna boyz in three separate games, and they have never failed to disappoint - unless you are trying to kill T3 infantry with 5+ saves or worse.

From a competitive standpoint the Battle Wagon is TRASH, don't even bring it for anything.

From a casual perspective the Battlewagon is still trash but can be fun as a delivery system from HQs and really choppy units like Nobz.

The rest of this is going to be from a competitive view point so don't get your knickers in a twist if you disagree since your casual game was awesome that one time.

Battlewagons rely on T8 to survive due to their terrible 4+ save. They are NOT worth taking only for a delivery system because after that they are just a giant 180pt waste of space on the board, and before you tell me "Well they can assault to!" they suck in assault unless you put a Deffrolla on the front and even then its mediocre at best for 180pts.

as bad as it is in CC, its even worse in the shooting phase. A Battlwagon with a Killkannon, Kannon and 4 Rokkitz costs a mind numbing 239pts. For that cost it puts out 4 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots at range 24 hitting on 5s, 1 S8 -2 D6 dmg shot at 36inch range hitting on 5s or D6 S4 shots hitting on 5s AND D6 S7 -2 2 damage shots at range 24.

So for starters you are extremely short ranged, next against a T7 3+ Vehicle you will average 1.5ish damage a turn from the Rokkitz, .5 dmg from the Kannon and .8ish damage from the Kill Kannon. Grand total of just under 3 damage.

For the SupaKannon, you are looking at 191pts unless you add in some Big Shootas for some other plink shots for fun which will raise your cost by 24pts which gives you 4 S5 shots hitting a turn. But the actual SupaKannon? it would be good on a SM list, but for orkz? not so much. You will average 7 shots a turn and 2.33 hits a turn, against elite infantry (what else are you shooting this thing at?) you will wound 2 times on average but against that 2+ save you will only get 1 wound and 1 dead Elite Infantry.

So almost 200pt model is able to kill a Terminator a turn.

So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Does that relate to Ork Tactics?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Hows about a mob of ork boys that is out or charge range

Sure a boy may hit four times in cc.... but realistically its going to spend two turns out of that combat getting there, and then the last turn trying to run for an objective of some sort backfield. Even if its twice as killy as some other unit, its only going to get to be that way for half the time or less, and not get to reach out and put it hits where you want them to.

any boys that die before they get there are a complete loss and orks have no reliable way to shoot screens off the things that they actually want to charge.

Are you seriously having trouble playing against orks?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Please don't derail this thread, go to the one that is actually discussing that topic right now.

So Ork boyz are literally the strongest unit in the entire game against low armor hordes aka basically every screen unit, which is a must to play 8th ed 40k. Got it If I was incorrect, I would've been given a single example of something doing more pure damage.

And how does that not relate to ork tactics. I'm talking about an ork unit and it's viability compared to the rest of the units in the game. Why do I only care about damage here? Because it's one of the 2 things that's easy to quantify.
Here's an example of what I have

I tried doing the same thing with damage, however it is way more tricky than just taking all the units I have written up and marking them based on that, because ork shooting really lowers the overall average.
So I settled on getting the S rank as the best unit damage wise against: Hordes, Elites and Tanks. And the F rank is just the lowest rank I've written up because who cares about the F units anyway.

Feel free to chime in what you think are the best units damage wise against elites (T4S2+5++ unless you have a better example of a common elite unit) and tanks(T7S3+)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Any unit with a gun that is more than 1" away from the enemy.

If they magically teleport into combat however I doubt there are many. Genestealers? Bloodletters on the charge perhaps?

Also, on a related note; how many units are T3S6? Aren't the most common T3S5?

That's a good point about T3S5. T3S6 is gaunts, boyz, cultists, brimstones(kinda). Those are VERY common. T3S5 is IG, which is basically every single imperium army.

Bloodletters aren't great vs hordes:
0.1397 without buff compared to ork's 0.1852 and that's with the charge buff for letters.
For 20+ it is 0.1667 vs 0.2469.

Genestealers are even worse. Their weapons are even better statistically due to the 1 AP.
However:
Vanilla: 0.1111( 0.1852)
10+: 0.1481(0.2469.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what do you think is the best anti-horde unit damage wise then? For now I have Fully buffed Pink Horrors as the best. But I'm not sure that's fair.

Lol Boyz are T4S6 dude! Don't be dropping yourself that 1T!

Are these numbers for hordes the T3S6 or T3S5? I'd say the latter is more common just because I play against IG and Ulthwe (Guardians) the most often lol but I could be wrong. It depends on the particular meta I suppose.

For letters you pay the extra point for the greater flexibility (AP-3 weapons is soooo good).and slightly greater durability against high damage, AP weapons.

I don't know Nids as well but can't stealers take some bonkers upgrades to add more attacks?

Anyways what do I think is the best anti-horde unit damage-wise? What sort of horde are we talking here? A melee horde or infantry? Boyz have got to be up there but their problem remains getting into combat. It's funny, I think in actual gameplay terms there's a strong argument for Shoota Boyz over Sluggas. The threat of shootas is minimal but it can add up over a horde and it gives them something to do when they're not running up the field.

AssCan Razorbacks must be up there in terms of horde destruction, Guilliman makes it silly. Same with those Primaris dudes that put out 12 shots a piece. Infantry are decent at range, particularly with orders and if they have space to retreat and fire again without getting charged.

I'm not sure really, I'm not a maths guy though I'm afraid.

Yeah, but I meant more about the S6+ which they have. My bad.
These numbers are T3S6.
And yeah, bloodletters are great, I agree. However against hordes they can't take over boyz.

Against T3S5:
Letters are the same: 0.1397
Boyz drop to: 0.1481
Genestealers are 0.0925

With x+ models buffs:
Letters: 0.1667
Boyz drop to: 0.1975
Genestealers are 0.1234

So still king.

I was going to suggest genestealers being as good as or better against horde infantry, but I could be wrong. Boyz are great value for killing hordes. On the other hand even default stealers are very fast, and super fast as Kraken, they hit on a 2+ with a broodlord nearby (why wouldn't there be?) with extra attacks if they're above 10 models. The other big benefit is boyz aren't great against armour, where stealers' weight of rending (and -1AP) attacks make them awesome against everything they charge.

~~~

Anyway, does anybody think meganobz are worth taking on foot in a walker spam list? In any other context I'd say no, but they add to the saturation of heavy armour and are a bit cheaper per model than a killa kan to provide extra bodies without breaking the theme too much.

Just throwing that out there. I'd love to do an elite, low model count ork army, and I really like the look and idea of meganobz

20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I was going to suggest genestealers being as good as or better against horde infantry, but I could be wrong. Boyz are great value for killing hordes. On the other hand even default stealers are very fast, and super fast as Kraken, they hit on a 2+ with a broodlord nearby (why wouldn't there be?) with extra attacks if they're above 10 models. The other big benefit is boyz aren't great against armour, where stealers' weight of rending (and -1AP) attacks make them awesome against everything they charge.

~~~

Anyway, does anybody think meganobz are worth taking on foot in a walker spam list? In any other context I'd say no, but they add to the saturation of heavy armour and are a bit cheaper per model than a killa kan to provide extra bodies without breaking the theme too much.

Just throwing that out there. I'd love to do an elite, low model count ork army, and I really like the look and idea of meganobz

I think the problem is that being T4 compared to the T5+ of the rest of your walkers means that all the anti-infantry fire will still go into them and do meaningful damage. Even with 3 wounds and 2+ save, being wounded on 3's and 4's rather than 4's and 5's makes a big difference. They are even more vulnerable to overcharged plasma and lascannons than the rest of your walker list since they'll be wounded on 2's. It also doesn't help that they're directly competing with your walkers for the same targets in CC, while not adding anything significant in terms of shooting (if any, assuming you're taking the double killsaw loadout). Meganobz are in a really weird place right now and outside of a fringe mech list I don't think they have a place footslogging. Hopefully they get a tellyporta strike option in our upcoming codex or our transports get a significant price decrease.

Walkers are allready so bad you can't spoil them with meganobz.

 koooaei wrote:
Walkers are allready so bad you can't spoil them with meganobz.

I guess, but you do want to saturate the board with relatively high T multi-wound models, and Meganobz are just a smidge away from reaching that. Besides, more Kanz are better IMO, and at least they can shoot,

Thanks guys. Here's hoping the codex provides some good sub faction rules

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

No doubt Boyz are powerful but they don't move anywhere near as fast and only have one method of "deep strike" that can be negated and/or can fail. If 100% of the Genestealers get into combat, but only 50% of the Boyz manage to these numbers become somewhat different.

They lack versatility, like most of the Ork index to be honest. Basic, strong units that look good on paper but are easily countered or ignored. Boyz are strong if the enemy allows them to close the distance and pummel them with no problems. Once the enemy starts using shenanigans, intelligent tactics (such as walking backwards and shooting),or counterplays them, Boyz they are incredibly easy to deal with. Perhaps too easy.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

No doubt Boyz are powerful but they don't move anywhere near as fast and only have one method of "deep strike" that can be negated and/or can fail. If 100% of the Genestealers get into combat, but only 50% of the Boyz manage to these numbers become somewhat different.

They lack versatility, like most of the Ork index to be honest. Basic, strong units that look good on paper but are easily countered or ignored. Boyz are strong if the enemy allows them to close the distance and pummel them with no problems. Once the enemy starts using shenanigans, intelligent tactics (such as walking backwards and shooting),or counterplays them, Boyz they are incredibly easy to deal with. Perhaps too easy.

exactly. The only people having a hard time dealing with Ork Hordes are those who brought a net list that features TONS of anti vehicle weapons and not enough anti infantry weapons. Which, btw, is also my favorite part right now about competitive 40k. Nothing like watching a Ultrasmurf player complaining the entire game that he has to shoot his Lascannons and Plasma guns into ork boyz because I didn't even bring anything above T4 except for HQs

Genestealers are great, but they do have some glaring weaknesses.

The broodlord is not so good, very expensive for what you get.

The genestealers are not great vs highT good save target, they are better elite and infantery.

Bring glass cannons they do not like massed small arms fire.

The army has trouble keeping 2 units of genestealers alive. They really want catalyst and the counter attack wrecks them once you have 2 fights.

Boys do not share their streanghts, but boys arr cheap and they have the now with powerclaw/big choppa. With the merge stratagem you can even have 2 in one unit.

Also if the enemy has 2 charge-able units next to each other and you roll that 9 after the re-rolls - you basically won any game. You declare 1 of the units but actually charge both. You kill one and suround a model of the other with 3 of the 30(or so) boyz. The opponent can't shoot you and can't retreat. You kill the other unit in the your opponent's turn and proceed to do the same the following turns.

Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

 Niiai wrote:
Genestealers are great, but they do have some glaring weaknesses.

The broodlord is not so good, very expensive for what you get.

The genestealers are not great vs highT good save target, they are better elite and infantery.

Bring glass cannons they do not like massed small arms fire.

The army has trouble keeping 2 units of genestealers alive. They really want catalyst and the counter attack wrecks them once you have 2 fights.

Boys do not share their streanghts, but boys arr cheap and they have the now with powerclaw/big choppa. With the merge stratagem you can even have 2 in one unit.

One or two PC and BC only do very little to vehicles or monstrous creatures. They have the same function as acid maws on genestealers. The additional damage sounds great, but PK is -1 to hit and the BC only -1 to AP. In reality you can't expect you nob to do more than 2 damage to a hard target, if he hits at all in the one round he usually gets to fight per game.

Also, everything you just wrote about stealers is also true for boyz, you pay the additional points for the much faster speed (8" plus no downside advances), the 5++ save and the better AP. I wouldn't call either unit superior to the other, we just bring twice as many boyz to have roughly the same number in combat than gene stealers.

I'd call one unit easily superior. One sees play in every tournament list and the other one doesn't(yes it's a byproduct of the most of the ork index sucking but if genestealers were as good as boyz, damn straight they'd be used a lot more often)
Genestealer durability is AWFUL. And the damage is subpar to orks against any target in the game.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also if the enemy has 2 charge-able units next to each other and you roll that 9 after the re-rolls - you basically won any game.

Yeah, if your opponent is a complete idiot, you have 50% chance to win the game.

You declare 1 of the units but actually charge both. You kill one and suround a model of the other with 3 of the 30(or so) boyz. The opponent can't shoot you and can't retreat. You kill the other unit in the your opponent's turn and proceed to do the same the following turns.

So, how is your ork army coming along? You must have an impressive win-loss record to show by now with all those spread sheets and tactics of yours.

I'd just like to point out that, even assuming your opponent made such a grave mistake, your tactic requires you align those three boyz perfectly around the target model, otherwise it can move (for example at 4,8 and 12 o'clock) - basic geometry. You also need to have all your boyz outside of 1" the model you are trying to surround, otherwise your opponent will remove it as casualty or even make your strategy impossible by piling in.
Considering all that, you need to make your 3" move with at least two boyz past the model you want to surround, which is at least ~1.98" for a 25mm base, at least 2.2" for 32mm and 2.59" for 40mm . So best case, you have about a 1" margin to compensate for error, terrain and low charge rolls. For 25mm bases you might even succeed with just one boy running all the around the enemy model, but you have about 0.2" margin for error.
If you have less than two boyz close enough or other enemy models are too close (must not be farther from closest model after pile-in), your opponent didn't leave room to perfectly surround his models or the unit is not on circular 25mm-40mm bases (bike might or might not work, depending on positioning), the tactic is impossible to pull off.
Also important to consider - the unit you are trying to surround still gets to fight, so that might backfire if it's a large unit pox walkers, gaunts, horrors or cultists. Or something that's acutally good in combat.

So feel free to convince me with a photo from a game where you actually did this, I'm very sure that the tactic is no more than something to keep in mind for corner cases, not something you can pull of regularly, let alone against an opponent that has fallen to this before.

Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

What point are you trying to make? That a unit that can easily be killed is very dangerous when not killed?
In that case, yes you're right. Also, that ranking is utterly useless because of the total disconnect from actual games.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, what do you think is the best anti-horde unit damage wise then? For now I have Fully buffed Pink Horrors as the best. But I'm not sure that's fair.

Hordes are the best option against hordes. If you're trying to kill boyz its really easy, and cheap: slaanesh cultists, first rank second rank guardsman, or 20+ squads of devourer gants.

Boyz will beat all of them in melee combat, but also lose half (or more) of their numbers before they get there. If it was point for point matched on the board, boyz probably lose all those battles due to range alone, but people don't tend to bring that many cultists etc. Boyz have more flexibility in their target priority since they output so many more attacks, but they have much less flexibility in their target priority since they can be so easily screened.

My answer to this argument is that Boyz are in a good spot, and they are not catastrophically overpowered or underpowered. But IMO they are borderline too strong, much like guardsman, cultists, and gants etc.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'd call one unit easily superior. One sees play in every tournament list and the other one doesn't(yes it's a byproduct of the most of the ork index sucking but if genestealers were as good as boyz, damn straight they'd be used a lot more often)

Sure, discard the only reason for us to run that many boyz.
I assure you that ork lists would look the same as tyranid lists, with 3x gretchin for CP and awesome stuff in all other slots.

Genestealer durability is AWFUL. And the damage is subpar to orks against any target in the game.

If T4/5++ is awful, what is T4/6+?

Also "subpar" is a strong word for a unit of gene stealers dealing almost the same damage against most targets as boyz, considering that they have 10 less models and get to keep their horde bonus down to 10 and usually see combat a turn earlier than boyz.

I love how you miss the part that genestealers cost TWICE what boyz cost. Spoilers: 6+->5++ is NOT worth 6 pts. Not in the slightest. They're rank D- against most anti-horde weapons while boyz are C+.

Also, it's literally "have 2 units in charge range". If your opponent has only 1 unit in charge range in the whooole map, that means he's stuck behind it and you'll win the objective game anyway.

And how to surround? Really easy. As long as you roll that 9''. You get 6 '' of free movement during pile in. Then as you did not charge the unit but only pilled into it - you can't even hit it. So the model you surrounded has no way of escaping.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I love how you miss the part that genestealers cost TWICE what boyz cost. Spoilers: 6+->5++ is NOT worth 6 pts. Not in the slightest. They're rank D- against most anti-horde weapons while boyz are C+.

A bit unfair to suggest they're only paying for an invulnerable save. Stealers also get rending claws, free scything talons to use against other invulnerable save units, free acid maws for every 4th model and they move like a fast attack unit. Boyz are a great troop unit, but genestealers are a great troop unit that also function like a fast attack and elite unit at the same time.

Both are great value and belong in the same tier

Well durability wise they are still 12pts for T4S5++. That's the problem with all upgrades in the game. You put on this awesome gun on your dude, however that means his durability goes down the drain as the pts increase but the defensive stats stay the same. Which is why upgrades should be really cheap and really powerful or you'll just see vanilla dudes everywhere. Especially relavant to troops and HQs as those need to be as cheap as posible to fill batallions.

Again, I disagree that genestealers are on the same tier. I'd give you bloodletters on the same tier as boyz. However genestealers have fallen behind quite a bit.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well durability wise they are still 12pts for T4S5++. That's the problem with all upgrades in the game. You put on this awesome gun on your dude, however that means his durability goes down the drain as the pts increase but the defensive stats stay the same. Which is why upgrades should be really cheap and really powerful or you'll just see vanilla dudes everywhere. Especially relavant to troops and HQs as those need to be as cheap as posible to fill batallions.

Again, I disagree that genestealers are on the same tier. I'd give you bloodletters on the same tier as boyz. However genestealers have fallen behind quite a bit.

Fair enough. Boyz are harder to kill point for point and make better objective grabbers (especially with shootas) but until they get useful 'chapter tactics' like stealers have access to I still think they belong in the same tier.

For what it's worth their speed is a defensive asset because they can start killing the units shooting them a least a turn before boyz can. They also get the option of a free 4+ save by sacrificing their advance and charge ability, but I don't think many take that option because speed is so useful for them

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

Lol I thought this accolade belonged to fully buffed pink horrors?

Or are we just doing melee combat? In which case we absolutely should be the strongest damage dealing unit in the game against hordes, point for point. Its not like our shooting is usable with the - 1 to hit stuff everywhere.

There's a reason Boyz are so strong in terms of damage output and I know you're intelligent enough to get this - when balancing the unit we must consider durability and utility. They are one of the slowest units in the game. They are melee units so do negligible damage outside melee. They have limited options to close the distance to their enemies. All these things mean that the expectation is that half the Boyz (or more) will be dead when you eventually get a unit into combat. So they need to hit hard enough to compensate for this fact.

If a unit is somewhat guaranteed to get into melee in a game *cough* Genestealers, Bloodletters *hack* they too should be priced appropriately.

As to your 'surround a unit with the pile in' tactic, I can't imagine it being possible in a real game. If you're against a gun line army the screen will be so clustered around the edges you won't be able to surround a model I don't think. If the army wants to be in melee combat, you just gave them the charge and they can likely shoot you beforehand too. Of course any unit with fly ignores this. It feels incredibly situational and even then is by no means an auto win.

Oh the pile in tactic is definitelly possible. I've done it more often than not. You present an ugly choice:
either the opponent deploys normally and I might pull the shananigans if I make the charge, or the opponent has to completelly castle in by placing models less than 1'' within each other which very much wrecks the deepstrike deny potential AND both sides need to be covered with 2 dudes at least so I can't get behind the model to surround it anyway.

So either:
1. I might just win turn 1 if I roll the 9'' charge.
2. Your deployment is very suboptimal to defend against deepstrike. You play 3 turns of the game cornered and the timer ends before you can move out because I just keep throwing bodies at you.

And if you say "scouts", well that makes 1. even easier

Why does an opponent need to defend against deep striking so much against Orks?

We aren't demons, we can't deepstrike any unit for CP.

We have Da Jump and Kommandos. The opponent will know if you brought Kommandos straight away from your list. I assume you aren't because they are far worse than Boyz in terms of damage output and they seem to be your favourite unit (also I don't remember you buying any).

So that leaves Da Jump. It's such a popular ability and so widely known I think most opponents can prepare an adequate defence against it now.

Sub-optimal deep strike denial =/= cornered player at all. They can use fast moving units to rush objectives. Or they can overload one flank. Or deploy as far forward as possible and move back every turn while blowing you off the table.

Also if the strategy hinges on the game ending on turn 3 you might as well bin it with the upcoming use of chess clocks. That won't be a thing any more if you're an ITC player.

Finally, the opponent can always spread their units out in a way that denies the best deep strike spots but is not wide open enough for this tactic. You are hoping for a unit within 3" of another for this to work at all correct (3" to get to unit and another 3" to get around the enemy model, give or take)? I have opponents who don't turtle that hard. Even IG ones. They know Orks don't have much deepstrike potential so aren't concerned about it. The games I play tend to be more along the lines of "can the opponent kill the bulk of my army before it arrives and eats them, while dealing with Da Jump annoyances/distractions". You also have to roll high on the charge? Not guaranteed by any stretch.

I have kommandos. They're great, as proven by the very recent results of the 20 kommandos + snikrot lists in GTs.

Please stop being so ignorant that you miss the entire point of this discussion. "What unit is the best damage wise against x so I can use that unit's damage per point number as the "S" rank for the spreadsheet". It is not "Ork boyz are OP and should be nerfed, wtf best unit in the game, damage is all that matters"

I always bring kommandos. Always. Oh and the game still will end on turn 3-ish as the opponent needs to shoot/punch all the orks, which takes a LOT of time. I do not need to have a unit within 3'' of another unit. Unless I'm wrong, all I need is 2 units within 9'' of wherever I deepstrike. I declare one of them as the charge, I roll (hopefully 9''+) and move to both units, engaging one and staying 1'' away from the other, then I pile in and consolidate for a total of 6'' of movement as you do not need to go straight towards the closest model, you just need to get closer to it. 1mm closer is still closer. So you can easily surround a model as long as the base fits between 2 of your opponents models, and thankfully orks have 25mm as their base so that's less than an inch.

Also wtf is "(also I don't remember you buying any)"? Stalker much? I don't tout everything I buy here, lol.

Bloodletters are not nearly as good as boyz. The bl bomb is very powerful, but they are not exactly a versatile unit. You cannot camp an objective with bloodletters for example. The same goes for genestealers.

Boyz are simply very, very good. If Guardsmen gets upped to 5 points per model then I think boyz might well be the best troop choice in the game. They are not OP in my opinion, but if Orks get access to an infiltrate stratagem like "Strike From the Shadows" then boyz will be EXTREMELY unbalanced.

rvd1, would you care to draw a picture of you tactic? I feel like either of us is missing something important here.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I have kommandos. They're great, as proven by the very recent results of the 20 kommandos + snikrot lists in GTs.

Please stop being so ignorant that you miss the entire point of this discussion. "What unit is the best damage wise against x so I can use that unit's damage per point number as the "S" rank for the spreadsheet". It is not "Ork boyz are OP and should be nerfed, wtf best unit in the game, damage is all that matters"

I always bring kommandos. Always. Oh and the game still will end on turn 3-ish as the opponent needs to shoot/punch all the orks, which takes a LOT of time. I do not need to have a unit within 3'' of another unit. Unless I'm wrong, all I need is 2 units within 9'' of wherever I deepstrike. I declare one of them as the charge, I roll (hopefully 9''+) and move to both units, engaging one and staying 1'' away from the other, then I pile in and consolidate for a total of 6'' of movement as you do not need to go straight towards the closest model, you just need to get closer to it. 1mm closer is still closer. So you can easily surround a model as long as the base fits between 2 of your opponents models, and thankfully orks have 25mm as their base so that's less than an inch.

Also wtf is "(also I don't remember you buying any)"? Stalker much? I don't tout everything I buy here, lol.

I just don't remember you saying you purchased any and, for a while, you did tout most of what you owned on here.

If you want to put the highest damaging unit in your "S" rank or whatever then you need to go through every unit, costing it out and doing the maths for it yourself. Your spreadsheet honestly isn't as important as you seem to believe. Haven't you answered the question yourself? Wasn't it Pink Horrors? Move on.

Now if you could stop being so ignorant as to bring your spreadsheet into a discussion that is supposed to focus on Ork Tactica, it'd be appreciated. That is the actual point of the discussion.

Speaking of which, your tactic then seems bogus. If 2 units are side by side and you charge one, how are you surrounding a model without getting further away from the one you charged?

pismakron wrote:
Bloodletters are not nearly as good as boyz. The bl bomb is very powerful, but they are not exactly a versatile unit. You cannot camp an objective with bloodletters for example. The same goes for genestealers.

Boyz are simply very, very good. If Guardsmen gets upped to 5 points per model then I think boyz might well be the best troop choice in the game. They are not OP in my opinion, but if Orks get access to an infiltrate stratagem like "Strike From the Shadows" then boyz will be EXTREMELY unbalanced.

I disagree, particularly on Bloodletters. They are as good at least as Boyz, possibly better. They are far more versatile than Boyz because they have AP on their weapons so can damage armour somewhat reliably. They can make charges far easier. You can also camp an objective better with Bloodletters than Boyz against most weapons because of their invuln.

for the additional 6pts a model you get alot more than just the 5++, The speed alone almost makes the points worth it, and the -1ap makes a greater variety of targets vulnerable. by the time a slogging ork unit gets to melee thye might have the same number of models as a stealer unit, and when thats the case math obviously works out in the stealers favor and at that point moral as well. Another point to mention is that the stealers have easy access to a 5+ fnp in addition to 5++ without the additional points needed to field another model (painboy) which only confers us a 6+ fnp. Tyrants and other psychers with catalyst are always in lists so its essentially a free buff for stealers if they want it..

STealers are at least as good as boys, likely better.
Our capacity for damage is higher, but like our entire army is swingy in its output, in the average game stealers are much more reliable in getting their job done.

all that for 6 points? i would pay it in a heartbeat.

 Jidmah wrote:
rvd1, would you care to draw a picture of you tactic? I feel like either of us is missing something important here.

There's a whole blog about it:
https://thebrownmagic.com/2018/03/01/cracking-the-screen-part-2/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I just don't remember you saying you purchased any and, for a while, you did tout most of what you owned on here.

If you want to put the highest damaging unit in your "S" rank or whatever then you need to go through every unit, costing it out and doing the maths for it yourself. Your spreadsheet honestly isn't as important as you seem to believe. Haven't you answered the question yourself? Wasn't it Pink Horrors? Move on.

Now if you could stop being so ignorant as to bring your spreadsheet into a discussion that is supposed to focus on Ork Tactica, it'd be appreciated. That is the actual point of the discussion.

Speaking of which, your tactic then seems bogus. If 2 units are side by side and you charge one, how are you surrounding a model without getting further away from the one you charged?

pismakron wrote:
Bloodletters are not nearly as good as boyz. The bl bomb is very powerful, but they are not exactly a versatile unit. You cannot camp an objective with bloodletters for example. The same goes for genestealers.

Boyz are simply very, very good. If Guardsmen gets upped to 5 points per model then I think boyz might well be the best troop choice in the game. They are not OP in my opinion, but if Orks get access to an infiltrate stratagem like "Strike From the Shadows" then boyz will be EXTREMELY unbalanced.

I disagree, particularly on Bloodletters. They are as good at least as Boyz, possibly better. They are far more versatile than Boyz because they have AP on their weapons so can damage armour somewhat reliably. They can make charges far easier. You can also camp an objective better with Bloodletters than Boyz against most weapons because of their invuln.

I said my initial purchase plans. Not anything I've gotten since

Boyz are a lot higher damage than pink horrors. WIth buffs boyz are 2x as good actually. However in a more realistic case warpath, banner boyz are 0.3886 where flickering, herald pinks are only 0.2049. And I want to split melee and shooting. So boyz are winning this hard without shooting a single gun and without me taking into account the boss nob.

The spreadsheet is for me and whoever else wants to use it. Be it new players or other. It does not say "x unit is better". It only says, "the damage potential of the unit is x and the durability is y. If it's great - what's preventing it from being used and if it's crap, why is it still used, are you questions you have to answer on your own by reading: range, movement speed and special rules"

And finally, bloodletters are only better against OC plasma and better and even then, just barelly. With anything lower (you know, the things that are actually made for killing most hordes) boyz are a lot more durable. They suffer from morale a lot more than boyz too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However I do value bloodletters the same as boyz. The 3D6 charge is gamebreaking,

I will read you blog posts. The post you linked to is quite interesting. You can keep your maths though. Not as directly interesting to me.

You can't compare boyz with genestealers, they're both assault oriented troops but they work differently. Genestealer are most expensive but to make them effective you need 20-40 of them.

To make boyz effective you need 150 of them, including kommandos and/or stormboyz. Plus buffing characters.

Compare 40 genestealers and 80 boyz. Those tyranids will be very good on average, the boyz won't, they need twice the bodies or to ride in overcosted vehicles.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


I said my initial purchase plans. Not anything I've gotten since

Boyz are a lot higher damage than pink horrors. WIth buffs boyz are 2x as good actually. However in a more realistic case warpath, banner boyz are 0.3886 where flickering, herald pinks are only 0.2049. And I want to split melee and shooting. So boyz are winning this hard without shooting a single gun and without me taking into account the boss nob.

The spreadsheet is for me and whoever else wants to use it. Be it new players or other. It does not say "x unit is better". It only says, "the damage potential of the unit is x and the durability is y. If it's great - what's preventing it from being used and if it's crap, why is it still used, are you questions you have to answer on your own by reading: range, movement speed and special rules"

And finally, bloodletters are only better against OC plasma and better and even then, just barelly. With anything lower (you know, the things that are actually made for killing most hordes) boyz are a lot more durable. They suffer from morale a lot more than boyz too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However I do value bloodletters the same as boyz. The 3D6 charge is gamebreaking,

Listen rvd you rile people up here with your sweeping and kind of accusatory statements. I think you opened your return to this thread to discuss the spreadsheet with something along the lines of "To those who believe that Boyz aren't OP can you name a better unit for dealing with T3S6 units?". Kinda confrontational and argumentative.

If you want to discuss just your spreadsheet make another thread for it. It is interesting but it doesn't contribute too much to real life scenarios as you've said yourself it only contains information on damage output and durability. In some ways it's anti tactics as, in order to be fair, it assumes equality across units (all units get in to combat, for example) which is devoid of real life experience.

Finally on letters, I'm glad you concede their value. Remember that the name of the ork game is to spam a unit so much that anti vehicle weapons have to fire at them since there's no other target. If letters were spammed as much as Boyz those extra saves on high Str and AP weapons would make a difference I think. Luckily demons have many other tricks up their metaphysical sleeve so don't need to rely as much on one trick pony solutions. Unlike orks imo.

Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

And again, you are comparing Orks to codex armies and saying orks are one trick ponies. Congratulations. You solved the age old riddle. The fact that orks can hang in there and beat codex armies constantly is a great proof of how strong the Ork index actually is. Index armies are not balanced against codex armies. This has been stated by the FLG guys, who test the game. Codex is supposed to be better than index. Why would people buy the books if they weren't, right?

And please. Just try to think for 1 moment. What is more valuable:
1. Look at the unit's datasheet and say if it is good or not
2. Look at the unit's durability and damage statistic AND the datasheet and say if it is good or not.

Practice, friendly games, even RTTs are anecdotal evidence. Only GT and Major results actually matter as real evidence.

You are not supposed to think: "oh, this unit does the best damage, clearly it is the best". It is supposed to make you think. Consider the damage, the durability. Are they subpar? Are they better than average? Consider the special rules and movement. Compare them to similar units. Look up tournament results and see what sees play. Hey, maybe you've uncovered something neat, maybe you can apply some tactic/stratagem and make that unit work. However you immediately know you're not wasting time with weak units, that have next to no unique rules

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Look at the unit's durability

Well in this case then boys are garbage

Actually, it is exactly average against anti-horde weapons... Combined with their INSANE damage, leads to a great unit, no?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

And again, you are comparing Orks to codex armies and saying orks are one trick ponies. Congratulations. You solved the age old riddle. The fact that orks can hang in there and beat codex armies constantly is a great proof of how strong the Ork index actually is. Index armies are not balanced against codex armies. This has been stated by the FLG guys, who test the game. Codex is supposed to be better than index. Why would people buy the books if they weren't, right?

And please. Just try to think for 1 moment. What is more valuable:
1. Look at the unit's datasheet and say if it is good or not
2. Look at the unit's durability and damage statistic AND the datasheet and say if it is good or not.

Practice, friendly games, even RTTs are anecdotal evidence. Only GT and Major results actually matter as real evidence.

You are not supposed to think: "oh, this unit does the best damage, clearly it is the best". It is supposed to make you think. Consider the damage, the durability. Are they subpar? Are they better than average? Consider the special rules and movement. Compare them to similar units. Look up tournament results and see what sees play. Hey, maybe you've uncovered something neat, maybe you can apply some tactic/stratagem and make that unit work. However you immediately know you're not wasting time with weak units, that have next to no unique rules

I'm not telling you to get out the thread rvd. I'm telling you if you want people to take you seriously you should stop being such a condescending ignoramus. I'm also saying that your spreadsheet (and discussion thereof) does not belong here. This is tactica. Not number crunching.

To new players your rating of Boyz could easily confuse them. Your statistics are also biased as all feth. You have taken their attacks against what you believe to be the most common. Perhaps in your meta that's true but it won't be for everyone. So I have a ton of meaningless numbers that are real interesting to you and nobody else. Congrats I guess. Discuss it elsewhere.

Not every index army was/is forced to one tactic to be competitive. Almost all had unique mechanics that Orks lack.

As to what constitutes "real" evidence, let's just agree to disagree on that.

So anyway what are you telling me with your spreadsheet? 'Boyz are good'. Wow! My mind is blown. Please hold me before I fall over thanks to this world-shattering announcement. You're about (E) 154 pages too late though bud, I'm afraid to say we worked that out before your spreadsheet almost immediately. Which makes me think your reason for harping on about Boyz damage output and durability against whatever unit you fancy has some other, more nefarious reasons. Perhaps you want to call out those who don't believe Boyz are OP. Perhaps you just like to argue. I'm not sure. But it's not useful to the topic at hand I'm afraid.

Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

How about instead if I say "hey, why don't we discuss tactics instead of whether or not boyz are OP? How do you USE the unit in question most effectively? How do you counter the counter? What if I'm crazy and don't want to use any boyz at all?"

Coh Magnussen wrote:

Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

How about instead if I say "hey, why don't we discuss tactics instead of whether or not boyz are OP? How do you USE the unit in question most effectively? How do you counter the counter? What if I'm crazy and don't want to use any boyz at all?"

Where did I say boyz are OP in the current discussion?

This is a bit snippy for a discussion of toy soldiers isn't it? I think we all came here for tactics for winning fire fights, not flame wars.

Regardless, do Orks have a good answer to battlesuits in the current edition? I keep losing vast numbers of boyz to 3-flamer crisis suits. 6 of them manta strike in, flame the heck out of my boys (fire fight, literally) and I don't really have enough of an answer to it aside from a deff dred to deal with even one.

 SonOfTzu wrote:
This is a bit snippy for a discussion of toy soldiers isn't it? I think we all came here for tactics for winning fire fights, not flame wars.

Regardless, do Orks have a good answer to battlesuits in the current edition? I keep losing vast numbers of boyz to 3-flamer crisis suits. 6 of them manta strike in, flame the heck out of my boys (fire fight, literally) and I don't really have enough of an answer to it aside from a deff dred to deal with even one.

shouldnt they be landing outside of flamer range? Or did they use that stupid stealth suit beacon thingy?

Coh Magnussen wrote:

Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

How about instead if I say "hey, why don't we discuss tactics instead of whether or not boyz are OP? How do you USE the unit in question most effectively? How do you counter the counter? What if I'm crazy and don't want to use any boyz at all?"

You simply cannot discuss Ork tactics without talking about boyz in the current meta. If you don't want to use any boyz at all then you will need to spam a LOT of Kustom Mega Kannons.

 davou wrote:

 SonOfTzu wrote:
This is a bit snippy for a discussion of toy soldiers isn't it? I think we all came here for tactics for winning fire fights, not flame wars.

Regardless, do Orks have a good answer to battlesuits in the current edition? I keep losing vast numbers of boyz to 3-flamer crisis suits. 6 of them manta strike in, flame the heck out of my boys (fire fight, literally) and I don't really have enough of an answer to it aside from a deff dred to deal with even one.

shouldnt they be landing outside of flamer range? Or did they use that stupid stealth suit beacon thingy?

Stealth suits are able to get up close and deploy the beacon because of the just lovely infiltrator rule, and since they're relatively expendable (apparently), they can get away with it.

 SonOfTzu wrote:

 davou wrote:

 SonOfTzu wrote:
This is a bit snippy for a discussion of toy soldiers isn't it? I think we all came here for tactics for winning fire fights, not flame wars.

Regardless, do Orks have a good answer to battlesuits in the current edition? I keep losing vast numbers of boyz to 3-flamer crisis suits. 6 of them manta strike in, flame the heck out of my boys (fire fight, literally) and I don't really have enough of an answer to it aside from a deff dred to deal with even one.

shouldnt they be landing outside of flamer range? Or did they use that stupid stealth suit beacon thingy?

Stealth suits are able to get up close and deploy the beacon because of the just lovely infiltrator rule, and since they're relatively expendable (apparently), they can get away with it.

It may be worth investing into a grot screen for your boyz to try and prevent the flamer alpha strike, at the very least it can potentially take them out of flamer range even with the beacon. Assuming the grots don't all die straight away, whatever's left could potentially be overwatch fodder to tie them in combat so the boyz can make it intact. It's probably still best to try and kill them at range once they drop though, so KMK and rokkits should be a decent response, especially the rokkits since do a flat 3 damage, meaning each save he fails is one that instantly dies. The good thing is that they're still pretty damn expensive so each one you bring down is a considerable points loss for him.

SemperMortis wrote:
From a competitive standpoint the Battle Wagon is TRASH, don't even bring it for anything.

From a casual perspective the Battlewagon is still trash but can be fun as a delivery system from HQs and really choppy units like Nobz.

The rest of this is going to be from a competitive view point so don't get your knickers in a twist if you disagree since your casual game was awesome that one time.

Battlewagons rely on T8 to survive due to their terrible 4+ save. They are NOT worth taking only for a delivery system because after that they are just a giant 180pt waste of space on the board, and before you tell me "Well they can assault to!" they suck in assault unless you put a Deffrolla on the front and even then its mediocre at best for 180pts.

as bad as it is in CC, its even worse in the shooting phase. A Battlwagon with a Killkannon, Kannon and 4 Rokkitz costs a mind numbing 239pts. For that cost it puts out 4 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots at range 24 hitting on 5s, 1 S8 -2 D6 dmg shot at 36inch range hitting on 5s or D6 S4 shots hitting on 5s AND D6 S7 -2 2 damage shots at range 24.

So for starters you are extremely short ranged, next against a T7 3+ Vehicle you will average 1.5ish damage a turn from the Rokkitz, .5 dmg from the Kannon and .8ish damage from the Kill Kannon. Grand total of just under 3 damage.

For the SupaKannon, you are looking at 191pts unless you add in some Big Shootas for some other plink shots for fun which will raise your cost by 24pts which gives you 4 S5 shots hitting a turn. But the actual SupaKannon? it would be good on a SM list, but for orkz? not so much. You will average 7 shots a turn and 2.33 hits a turn, against elite infantry (what else are you shooting this thing at?) you will wound 2 times on average but against that 2+ save you will only get 1 wound and 1 dead Elite Infantry.

So almost 200pt model is able to kill a Terminator a turn.

hyperbole....

A T8 transport that holds 20 models and has 6 attacks that hits on 2's at str 8 is good. However they are certainly over priced but not so much that I would call them trash. I like to take 3-4 in my lists, and I can bang around in middle tables just fine, which is about all you can hope with orks anyway.

As far as argument that goes "Well my opponent can kill them so they suck." 200 Boyz can be killed just as fast..so they must suck too.

I do agree that buying them guns doesn't make any sense.

Anyone got any good suggestions on how to effectively use boyz and gretchin for screens and breaking screens? I've realised my screening game is weak, I had a look online for some material but most of it was a bit basic and nothing was too in depth. Hoping to get some more detailed advice from people with more experience.

Relevant because actually talking about tactics instead of mathhammer/unit grading.

 Geemoney wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
From a competitive standpoint the Battle Wagon is TRASH, don't even bring it for anything.

From a casual perspective the Battlewagon is still trash but can be fun as a delivery system from HQs and really choppy units like Nobz.

The rest of this is going to be from a competitive view point so don't get your knickers in a twist if you disagree since your casual game was awesome that one time.

Battlewagons rely on T8 to survive due to their terrible 4+ save. They are NOT worth taking only for a delivery system because after that they are just a giant 180pt waste of space on the board, and before you tell me "Well they can assault to!" they suck in assault unless you put a Deffrolla on the front and even then its mediocre at best for 180pts.

as bad as it is in CC, its even worse in the shooting phase. A Battlwagon with a Killkannon, Kannon and 4 Rokkitz costs a mind numbing 239pts. For that cost it puts out 4 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots at range 24 hitting on 5s, 1 S8 -2 D6 dmg shot at 36inch range hitting on 5s or D6 S4 shots hitting on 5s AND D6 S7 -2 2 damage shots at range 24.

So for starters you are extremely short ranged, next against a T7 3+ Vehicle you will average 1.5ish damage a turn from the Rokkitz, .5 dmg from the Kannon and .8ish damage from the Kill Kannon. Grand total of just under 3 damage.

For the SupaKannon, you are looking at 191pts unless you add in some Big Shootas for some other plink shots for fun which will raise your cost by 24pts which gives you 4 S5 shots hitting a turn. But the actual SupaKannon? it would be good on a SM list, but for orkz? not so much. You will average 7 shots a turn and 2.33 hits a turn, against elite infantry (what else are you shooting this thing at?) you will wound 2 times on average but against that 2+ save you will only get 1 wound and 1 dead Elite Infantry.

So almost 200pt model is able to kill a Terminator a turn.

hyperbole....

A T8 transport that holds 20 models and has 6 attacks that hits on 2's at str 8 is good. However they are certainly over priced but not so much that I would call them trash. I like to take 3-4 in my lists, and I can bang around in middle tables just fine, which is about all you can hope with orks anyway.

As far as argument that goes "Well my opponent can kill them so they suck." 200 Boyz can be killed just as fast..so they must suck too.

I do agree that buying them guns doesn't make any sense.

Oh man, don't bother. I blocked that dude months ago. Orks are due for their upgrade for sure soon, but unless you admit that having orks gives you aids semper will just ramp up constantly. The dude has no calibration


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quackzo wrote:
Anyone got any good suggestions on how to effectively use boyz and gretchin for screens and breaking screens? I've realised my screening game is weak, I had a look online for some material but most of it was a bit basic and nothing was too in depth. Hoping to get some more detailed advice from people with more experience.

Relevant because actually talking about tactics instead of mathhammer/unit grading.

Chose a spot on the board where you intend to put down important things, then measure out 15 inches from it. You want to pepper those areas with grots. If that spot is near an edge, make sure its at most 7 away from the edge so that nothing can come down behind it. Two units spaced 15 inches apart leave no room between them for drops. When you lay your units out like this TELL your opponent you did it. so that later if they try to measure it you can say;

"Na man, I told you I blocked it off. If there's space it's because I didn't want you to wait all day while I set up"

Then add grots between you and what you don't want to assault you (although those will probably be shot off relatively quickly.

Once you get moving up the board, the grots should dash for objective that look like they will see relatively little fighting.

Screening isnt that complicated, and drop denial is all about circles with a radius 8 (aim for 7 and you have margin for error). You wont find too much in detail about it.

pismakron wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:

Spoilers: you can say "hey get out of this thread" and so on but guess what. It will not happen.

How about instead if I say "hey, why don't we discuss tactics instead of whether or not boyz are OP? How do you USE the unit in question most effectively? How do you counter the counter? What if I'm crazy and don't want to use any boyz at all?"

You simply cannot discuss Ork tactics without talking about boyz in the current meta. If you don't want to use any boyz at all then you will need to spam a LOT of Kustom Mega Kannons.

Technically, you can make a decent boy-less army for very casual games. Or if you consider kommandoes and stormboyz to be not boyz. I guess they're not. Assault marines aren't tacticals, right?

But if you're talking about a non-horde army without spamming beq (boyz equivalent) than there is probably only forgeworld left. Garg squiggoths, supaskorcha trakks with something like tankbustas or min kommando squads inside. And probably a meka dread? Not sure about the dread but it looks ok for a kff platform in such list. Probably regular kff mek would do beter. Tactics is even more simple than your regular horde tactics. Roll on points, burn down anti-tank first. Ideally, if anti-tank is infantry based. Keep within kff range. So, you're an average 40k mobile gunline. Boring for an everyday army but could be a change over your usual lists and can be pretty effective agasint some enemies. Not an auto-win by any means ofc. And much easier and quicker to play than horde. What's great is that you can still afford a bauble wrap without much problems if you want so a bunch of shootaboyz or even gots would do fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quackzo wrote:
I had a look online for some material but most of it was a bit basic and nothing was too in depth

Unfortunately, i feel thats the most you can get out of 8-th edition. There's just not much you can do outside listbuilding.

 Quackzo wrote:
Anyone got any good suggestions on how to effectively use boyz and gretchin for screens and breaking screens? I've realised my screening game is weak, I had a look online for some material but most of it was a bit basic and nothing was too in depth. Hoping to get some more detailed advice from people with more experience.

Relevant because actually talking about tactics instead of mathhammer/unit grading.

What units do you have that need protecting? How did you learn your screening game was weak?

If you use mek guns as davou said best screen is with grots that are part of the unit. Deny them space to deep strike and if they kill some grots (with a view to making space) take casualties in a way that leaves as little room as possible. You can always da jump Boyz back to cover should the opponent manage to make space in your backfield although typically you'll be on their doorstep or punching them in the face already by the time this happens.

Anyway, so what I said about the charging 1 and surrounding the other unit thing was correct? Didn't you guys know about it? Or did I phrase it wrong?

 Quackzo wrote:
Anyone got any good suggestions on how to effectively use boyz and gretchin for screens and breaking screens? I've realised my screening game is weak, I had a look online for some material but most of it was a bit basic and nothing was too in depth. Hoping to get some more detailed advice from people with more experience.

Relevant because actually talking about tactics instead of mathhammer/unit grading.

Beastcoast Gaming has a good three part series on screening, starting here .

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Anyway, so what I said about the charging 1 and surrounding the other unit thing was correct? Didn't you guys know about it? Or did I phrase it wrong?

The way you are doing it, surrounding one or two models should work. It used coherency rules against the trapped unit to prevent fall back. Something I had never considered and I am not sure now I have been in a position to trap an enemy unit that way before. It's something I am definitely going to the next time I play. So far I've only trapped vehicles by mostly surrounding them and beating on them until their movement wouldn't be sufficient to leave combat. My dice are always against me so I end up stuck fighting empty vehicles for way too long. I'm interested to try it in layers boys locking up 2 or more units and storm boys locking up another 2 just beyond that combat. Would be massively good for me.

 Geemoney wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
From a competitive standpoint the Battle Wagon is TRASH, don't even bring it for anything.

From a casual perspective the Battlewagon is still trash but can be fun as a delivery system from HQs and really choppy units like Nobz.

The rest of this is going to be from a competitive view point so don't get your knickers in a twist if you disagree since your casual game was awesome that one time.

Battlewagons rely on T8 to survive due to their terrible 4+ save. They are NOT worth taking only for a delivery system because after that they are just a giant 180pt waste of space on the board, and before you tell me "Well they can assault to!" they suck in assault unless you put a Deffrolla on the front and even then its mediocre at best for 180pts.

as bad as it is in CC, its even worse in the shooting phase. A Battlwagon with a Killkannon, Kannon and 4 Rokkitz costs a mind numbing 239pts. For that cost it puts out 4 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots at range 24 hitting on 5s, 1 S8 -2 D6 dmg shot at 36inch range hitting on 5s or D6 S4 shots hitting on 5s AND D6 S7 -2 2 damage shots at range 24.

So for starters you are extremely short ranged, next against a T7 3+ Vehicle you will average 1.5ish damage a turn from the Rokkitz, .5 dmg from the Kannon and .8ish damage from the Kill Kannon. Grand total of just under 3 damage.

For the SupaKannon, you are looking at 191pts unless you add in some Big Shootas for some other plink shots for fun which will raise your cost by 24pts which gives you 4 S5 shots hitting a turn. But the actual SupaKannon? it would be good on a SM list, but for orkz? not so much. You will average 7 shots a turn and 2.33 hits a turn, against elite infantry (what else are you shooting this thing at?) you will wound 2 times on average but against that 2+ save you will only get 1 wound and 1 dead Elite Infantry.

So almost 200pt model is able to kill a Terminator a turn.

hyperbole....

A T8 transport that holds 20 models and has 6 attacks that hits on 2's at str 8 is good. However they are certainly over priced but not so much that I would call them trash. I like to take 3-4 in my lists, and I can bang around in middle tables just fine, which is about all you can hope with orks anyway.

As far as argument that goes "Well my opponent can kill them so they suck." 200 Boyz can be killed just as fast..so they must suck too.

I do agree that buying them guns doesn't make any sense.

I like playing with BWs a lot, in fact I mostly play with 2-3 of them. My meta is currently super scared about hordes since orks, chaos, tyranids and AM hordes are a thing and I usually have more success (and way more fun since I hate moving tons of footsloggers) with armored lists than pure green tides.

What do your lists commonly look like Blackie? I'd like to use batllewagons more.

Yeah, i'd lke to run more vehicles. Pretty tired of boyz but the meta is competitive and vehicles get destroyed en masse 1-st turn.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Anyway, so what I said about the charging 1 and surrounding the other unit thing was correct? Didn't you guys know about it? Or did I phrase it wrong?

Your description was pretty hard to understand, especially since you kept focusing on auto-winning after deep strike and being able to do it with just three models (in theory yes but if you're off by a tenth of an inch, the model can escape).
The article did make a lot more sense than you did, but my opinion on this is unchanged. A good opponent should not be caught out by this twice, at least not during turn 1. Later, when units are spaced out to block movement, grab objectives or conga towards buff auras, I can see this being very valuable.

Not to mention that there are a number of counter-measures against it.

But it's moot point to discuss, since you are already convinced that it's a free auto-win, and from experience nothing will change your mind. You have already ignored two thirds of the arguments against it.

I see the tactics outlined above on the table all the time, and it is certainly neither an auto-win nor something you can expect to pull off unless your opponent makes a positioning mistake. On the other hand positioning mistakes are very common, and I see people spacing their models with more than 25 mm base-to-base distance all the time.

Hormagaunts are the perfect unit for shenanigans like that, and boyz are pretty good too. But are as good as either of those, and Raptors with warptime can almost always get the surround on something. 40 man cultist squads will only work with Abbadon or the Iron Warriors warlord trait that grants fearless. Without those buffs they will run away when your opponent breathes at them.

I find that the "conga-line locked in melee" scenario often happens when you are assaulting, or being assaulted by, a rhino. Then I will try to get a character to bracket the rhino so that it cannot fall back. A KFF-mek on a bike or a weirdboy are good for this, as both can do their thing while being locked in melee. As the Rhino will probably last til game-end the mob and character cannot be targeted in the shooting phase. Not even by snipers. You can even use the mob-rule to add additional bodies to the conga-line as it piles-in and consolidates all over the field. You can literally pile-in to units across the board, and they will not get to fire overwatch.

There are some pretty big disadvantages to this, though. For one thing, you cannot charge or shoot with anything but pistols. Secondly, while you can fight, you wont get the "fight first for charging" bonus, but you opponent often will. Thirdly, all you models can only move 3" + 3" which is decent for boyz, but sub-par for stormboyz. And your models must end their move closer to the nearest enemy model or not move at all. The latter restriction means that you conga-line will tend to spread out, and sometimes will be unable to move while maintaining unit coherency.

The upside is that orks can alway Da Jump out of melee. Thousands Sons tzaangors can do the same with the Dark Matter Crystal. So don't try to surround them

Regards

Blackie, that is my experience too.

My lists tend to be:

3 BW w/ ard case
2 units ~20 boyz
1 unit 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts

1 BW open topped
either Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz

8 Kustom Mega Kannons

Warboss on Warbike
Big Mek on Warbike
2 Wierd boyz
Kaptian Badrukk

I tend to deploy using the T8 Battlewagons combined with the grot gunners as a screen. I can usually control were opponent deepstrike in this way.

I have also found that I have to have a strong shooting phase in order to do well. Which is why I take so many mek guns. I have been considering taking two more. (up to 10).

I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

They aren't as good as boyz, but they are not terrible either. Depending on how competitive your meta is, a unit of nobz or two have no trouble running with a green tide. I wouldn't bring them to the top tables of GT like LVO, but they are good enough for opponent that bring strong lists, but not the top soups.

If you run them, just take advantage of the ammo runt/nob armor combination as much as possible. Any multi-damage shots should go to gretchin, while bolters and other anti-infantry should be taken on some ablative nobz' armor.

Who's got tips for playing vs the new Adeptus Mechanicus?

I'm at a loss trying to figure out a reliable method for dealing with some of the more dangerous combinations. What's the Ork response to stuff like the Stygies Sydonian Dragoon rushes? We're talking <200 pts for a unit of 3, that for a cheap-as-hell 2 CP has a guaranteed charge on turn 1 and a reasonable shot at killing just about anything they're pointed at: 9 attacks base, 2+ to hit rerolling w/ a bonus 2 hits on 4+, S8 AP -1 D2. One of these units easily kills a trukk or a unit of boyz or nobz in a single round of combat, and even at relatively small games like 1000 points, you could be facing up to five of these units, plus backup...

And speaking of backup, Kastelans are an absolute nightmare. A more expensive unit usually taken with Cawl, that together clocks in at around 400 pts (though they're taking Cawl regardless, he's far and away the best HQ in the codex, so hardly a tax), but again for a mere 2 CP they put out 18 rerolling S6 AP -2 ignores cover shots with bonus mortal wounds on 6s to wound - and that's per model, not unit. The only consolation here is a 4+ to hit, but there are so many accuracy boosts they have access to that it's barely noticeable until later turns when CP starts to run dry. A unit of 4 of these can handily kill two units of Boyz in a single round of shooting.

My only semi-sane idea so far has been to fully mechanize and hope for the best. If nothing else, the Kastelans will have to chew through a battlewagon's worth of wounds before they get to mulch my boyz. At the moment, though, it feels almost comically one-sided to play against AM, so I'd appreciate just about any insight that could be offered.

RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

Nobz are more useful now than ever just for the morale mitigation they offer to nearby units of boyz. IMO a bare-bones unit of 5 nobs is now a semi-decent force multiplier when stuck in a mass of regular Orks. Larger units are still probably too expensive for what they can accomplish.

I had a unit of 10 nobz w/ power kill Scabbathrax and nearly finished of Mortarain in the same game (buffed with Warpath and a Waaagh Banner. That that is a very specific situation....and by design. I would not recommend that unit in most games.

I like nobz for dealing with models toughness 5-6 and decent armor saves (+4 or better). Think Crisis Suits or Space Marine Bikes. In general I think they will do better then boyz in these situations. And taking ammo runts means you can take casualties and not lose combat effectiveness. It can you an extra round of combat.

5 nobz with Big Choppaz and Power Stabbaz + 5 ammo runts, comes in at around 140 points.

Another way to look at is, is this. Boyz are about 6 points per wound. 1 nob and 1 ammo runt cost 7 points per wound. For that point you get a 4+ save, 1 ablative wound (runt), and 1 extra attack. That seems good to me.

If boyz are fighting something that they can wound on 4's or better; and/or a unit with a high model count then they will superior.

Nobz are good in trucks. Use ammo runts and keep the nobz cheap imo.

Having two wounds on one body is worth SLIGHTLY less than just points/wounds though since some weapons will nuke a boy and a nob with equal ease; you gain alot of 'value' when the enemy has to shoot lascannons into your ranks of lildudes

Boyz are less resistant to small arms fire, and lose three attacks for every failed save. Ammo runts help mitigate the las cannon problem.

I am not saying Nobz are always better than boyz, I am saying there are situations in which they are better. And you can make a reasonable argument for including them in your army.

 Geemoney wrote:
Boyz are less resistant to small arms fire, and lose three attacks for every failed save. Ammo runts help mitigate the las cannon problem.

I am not saying Nobz are always better than boyz, I am saying there are situations in which they are better. And you can make a reasonable argument for including them in your army.

No doubt, I love nobz, but the math isn't as simple as cost/wounds.

Right now having a group of nobs on the table makes target priority easier for opponents who have a reasonable spread of anti horde and anti tank weapons. I expect as tau and deldar come out we will see some mechanized lists return, and people will have to think harder about skewing anti horde. People needing to take anti tank weapons will only make the current ork meta stronger.

I certainly hope it comes full circle though, as I love running small mobs in trukks

Thanks for the feedback on the Nobz. I love them so I will play them but I will be sure to add some ammo runts and maybe limit my usage.

Next, question for the waaaaaagh, how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

 davou wrote:

No doubt, I love nobz, but the math isn't as simple as cost/wounds.

I agree.

I also agree that it doesn't make sense to field nobz on foot running up the field with a horde of boyz, for the reasons you stated.

 RiderOrk wrote:
how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

I think that sounds good but it seems to me to be a lot of points. For my self I use either all KMB's or big shootas in addition to the two klaws.
I don't put weapons in my boys mobs so this covers down on the extra ranged weapons I other wise wouldn't bother with.
I also only put KMB's on my killa kans because of their BS 4+ so each hit is meaningful.
I have one dread with 4 Klaws but 3 is enough probably.


Question, what's the least amount of boys any of you would bring in an Ork army.
So far the least I have brought was 40. 30 in one mob and 10 another mob. I'm planning a new list and I want more boys in the list but Not a full on green tide.

 davou wrote:
Right now having a group of nobs on the table makes target priority easier for opponents who have a reasonable spread of anti horde and anti tank weapons. I expect as tau and deldar come out we will see some mechanized lists return, and people will have to think harder about skewing anti horde. People needing to take anti tank weapons will only make the current ork meta stronger.

I disagree with this. I often field two units of 7 nobz on foot (5xBC and 3xPK), the seven gretchin make them very bad targets for anti-tank, while you usually have at least artillery, planes or trukks around as decent targets for those guns. Having two lascannon annihilators chew through ammo runts is a win for every kannon and KMK you have on the battlefield. If someone unloads a good anti-infantry weapon on the nobz, just have nobz without special weapons take those shots on their two 4+ wounds. However, those weapons are usually targeting the unit of boyz that has jumped, or another one that is close to objectives/something valuable.
If you get the chance, you can even mob up the unit that has lost its ammo runts into the other one. forcing the enemy to kill even more gretchin and ablative nobz before finally taking out BC or PKs.

As long as a single ammo runt is alive, both dedicated anti-tank and dedicated anti-horde is wasted on a unit of nobz with ammo runts. A KFF can amplify this effect (tougher ammo runts), but is not necessary at all.

The only thing that actually excels at killing nobz is multiple plasma guns at rapid fire range (or similar high volume D2 weaponry), since they will kill gretchin just as well as nobz.

The simple reason why boyz are still better than nobz is that you get a lot more damage and wounds for your points. Your army is not going to break down and stop working from bringing a unit of nobz or two instead of boyz. You should still bring three or more units of boyz in addition to your nobz though, since nobz are just a support unit to boyz to better take down hard targets.

You make a good case for Nobz, ammo runs are definitely a must, and they are also much easier to KFF and Painboy than boyz in droves. Plus when the squad gets in, the entire squad is fighting, whereas boyz are hanging back.

I've think that durability is a constant issue with boyz, and nobz may shore up this a little, especially with juicier targets on the field like KMKs.

"You won't pull the same charge surround trick twice. Especially on turn 1"

https://thebrownmagic.com/2018/03/13/when-life-gives-you-lemons-play-better-part-2/

So I guess the literally best 40k player right now is a big ol dummy :thinking:

Gruxz wrote:
What do your lists commonly look like Blackie? I'd like to use batllewagons more.

At 2000 points my favorite lists are a combination with these units: I usually have 2 BWs, one with 19 boyz plus a weirdboy with warpath or a warboss with big choppa, the second one with 2x10 boyz. Sometimes a third one with 2x10 boyz as well or 12 boyz plus 4 meganobz with killsaws. Then 1-2 trukks with 7-9 bustas and always 2 bomb squigs each, 2-3 single skorchas, 3-6 KMKs, biker boss or zhad, biker mek with kff and big choppa or killsaw and sometimes a morkanaut to act as a bullet magnet and eventually give the 5+ invuln to other vehicles. The naut and meganobz are more for casual games but they're not garbage IMHO and the weirdboy can help the meganobz by casting warpath on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiderOrk wrote:


Next, question for the waaaaaagh, how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

I always keep him cheap, two big shootas are enough. It's already quite expensive kitted like that and it doesn't reach combat that often anyway, skorachs have also a very short range and cost 3 times a big shoota.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

I never had decent results with them in this edition after CA drops and made pks cheaper. Before CA 6 I thought nobz with ammo runts and big choppas in a trukk were decent for their points but if you give them pks they become quite expensive comparing to the meganobz with two killsaws which I prefer. If you go footsloggers nobz are certainly more effective than meganobz but you need max ammo runts, a big unit of 7+ guys and a couple of stock nobz and least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geemoney wrote:
Blackie, that is my experience too.

My lists tend to be:

3 BW w/ ard case
2 units ~20 boyz
1 unit 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts

1 BW open topped
either Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz

8 Kustom Mega Kannons

Warboss on Warbike
Big Mek on Warbike
2 Wierd boyz
Kaptian Badrukk

I tend to deploy using the T8 Battlewagons combined with the grot gunners as a screen. I can usually control were opponent deepstrike in this way.

I have also found that I have to have a strong shooting phase in order to do well. Which is why I take so many mek guns. I have been considering taking two more. (up to 10).

I like it. How does the open topped BW perform in your games? I use trukks for tankbustas. What's the tactics around the two weirdboyz? One with warpath is certainly useful, and I tipycally include him in my lists as well, but the second one? Do you need da jump in a list with vehicles? I guess he's there only to smite though.

The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

 koooaei wrote:
The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

I don't think that transports are slow and avoidable. Boyz from a trukk can charge something 12+D6+3+5+D6+2D6 inches away in their second turn. That is 34" on average not counting the charge reroll. You simply cannot kite away from that without abandoning all board control, or leaving the game board all together.

But I agree with your other point, though, that running infantry is fast enough to make the transports not needed. Boyz with Waaagh+Ere we go will complete a second turn charge 26" away from their initial deployment 50% of the time. And that means that Boyz on foot will almost always get to charge something on their second turn. So the extra 10" of threat range you get with the trukk-boyz will most often lead to the same second-turn charge as if you did not bring the trukk. But trukk boyz are 13 points per boy, which is more than double that of footsloggers. That is why transports does not work for boyz.

Question
I use my Nobz with kustom shootas and big shoppa.
The kustom shoota is because it's 4 shots and kind of cheap
Is that a good idea?

Kustom shootas are by no means cheap. 4 pts is insane on a bs5+ platform. I'd consider them for 1 pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

I don't think that transports are slow and avoidable. Boyz from a trukk can charge something 12+D6+3+5+D6+2D6 inches away in their second turn. That is 34" on average not counting the charge reroll. You simply cannot kite away from that without abandoning all board control, or leaving the game board all together.

But I agree with your other point, though, that running infantry is fast enough to make the transports not needed. Boyz with Waaagh+Ere we go will complete a second turn charge 26" away from their initial deployment 50% of the time. And that means that Boyz on foot will almost always get to charge something on their second turn. So the extra 10" of threat range you get with the trukk-boyz will most often lead to the same second-turn charge as if you did not bring the trukk. But trukk boyz are 13 points per boy, which is more than double that of footsloggers. That is why transports does not work for boyz.

Oh, the trukk moves 12". My bad. Out of 4 total games i've used them, i didn't go first, so they either moved 0 cause they got wrecked or 8" cause the enemy shot them to degrade, so my brain assumed they move 10 when undamaged cause the only thing that managed to move full distance was a wagon and it moved 10. So, yeah. Mind you, our meta is quite competitive, so i lost all pickup games when trying to run mech. In comparison, i've won most of my games with boyz/stormboyz spam list. I think there were only 2 games where mech orks won. Those were pre-negotiated lists. Against witch cult (BARELY won on points and because there was no 6 turn, otherwise it would have been a wipeout) and against grey knights. Funnily enough, gk player had no anti-tank and still managed to wreck a t8 battlewagon with psy powers and s4-6 shooting before they even got to move. But than he, for some reason, decided that he wanted to charge. Failed all the charges and got left in the open. So, orks lucked out again. It was still a super close game that came down to Ghaz making like 5 out of 6 4++ saves.

 petitflacheur wrote:
Question
I use my Nobz with kustom shootas and big shoppa.
The kustom shoota is because it's 4 shots and kind of cheap
Is that a good idea?

The custom shooter is a trap. Its just not worth on an ork ballistic skill unfortunately. Compare it to a stormbolter, half the price, a better ballistic skill. Better range.

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

I've got a 1000pt campaign coming up against Primaris Marines and Death guard and this is the list I've come up with so far.

Battalion Detachment +3cp (Orks) 1000pts

Big Mek (75pts) KFF, Choppa

Warboss (72pts) Attack Squig, Kustom Shoota, PK

Warboss (66Pts) Attack Squig, Killchoppa, Kustom Shoota

Boyz (193pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-29x Boyz: Choppa Slugga

Boyz (193pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-29x Boyz: Choppa Slugga

Boyz (60pts)
-10x Boyz: Shoota

Nobz (126pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-4x Nobz: Big Choppa

Painboy (53pts) : PK

Warbikers (81pts)
-3x Warbikers

Big Gunz (81pts)
-3x Kannons
-6x Grot Gunners


I plan on walking the choppa boyz and Warbosses up the board with the KFF while the bikers and shoota boyz capture what objectives they can and the big gunz try to annoy/distract from the backfield. I figure the Nobz and Painboy could try and take out some of the higher toughness models that will probably be fielded. Thoughts? I do not have enough boyz to make another mob and the only other units I have available right now are two Deff Dreads and two Deffkoptas which I opted to not use since I think the only thing I've managed to kill with them in 3 games were some ratlings.

Probably a YMDC question, but is it commonly accepted that tabling equals loss in maelstrom? It just so happens I had a game on Saturday where I was way ahead on welfare VP's but got tabled in my opponent's shooting phase in the top of turn 6. (Untimed game)

For those of you that like unorthodox stuff, I brought a Dakkatide consisting of 30 Tankbustas, 24 Lootas, 90 Boyz, a handful of HQs, and 20 Stormboyz to a 2100pt maelstrom game vs a TAC Gurlyman UM squad with assbacks and devs + a small BT detachment.

Of course I do this then we got that mission where everything firing at something more then twelve inches away gets -1 to hit and I had to go 2nd.

MSU Tankbusta's standing in nothing but a KFF seemed to draw Marines into an Orkboy screen quite nicely. Distraction carnifex? It seemed like he had to do it or just give me all of the table.

I think putting Snikrot in a list to deploy behind non suicidal Shoota boy jumpz is almost good support.

Stormboyz picked up easy VPs easily and even picked up some kills. Ork Boyz getting in CC paid off nicely, never a bad game when they get stuck in numbers larger then twenty. Flare strategem in that mission feels comical. Imagine orkz looking for something to shoot in the dark, then a flare goes up and, with coordination that would make the psychic energies of the Waaagh! jealous, every ork with a gun or rokkit launcha fires at the light.

In the end, what got me tabled was combination of Helbrect, an Emperor's Champion, and RG himself smiting handfuls of choppy orkz and two remaining assbacks finishing my backfield.

@DrGiggles:

I'd ditch a warboss for a weirdboy. You don't need two warbosses at 1000 points. I'd also give the nobz max ammo runts, it helps quite a lot to keep them alive. Not a fan of bikers, especially in a footslogging list, they'll probably die without doing anything, I'd replace them with more artillery or kommandos.

With the models you have the list you posted is probably the best one you can field since dreads and koptas are utterly overcosted. Try to play one warboss as a pskyer and add those gretchins to the nobz if you can somehow, at least the ammo runt that comes with nobz kit.

Is the painboy and the bikers efficient in that list (Dr Giggles)?
2 or 3 skortchas aren't beter?

Edit: painboy is good, just the bikers then: 2 or 3 to do the same thing than one unit: take objectives

Question on the mek guns can you allocate wounds to the grots?

 DrGiggles wrote:
I've got a 1000pt campaign coming up against Primaris Marines and Death guard and this is the list I've come up with so far.

Battalion Detachment +3cp (Orks) 1000pts
<snip>

I plan on walking the choppa boyz and Warbosses up the board with the KFF while the bikers and shoota boyz capture what objectives they can and the big gunz try to annoy/distract from the backfield. I figure the Nobz and Painboy could try and take out some of the higher toughness models that will probably be fielded. Thoughts? I do not have enough boyz to make another mob and the only other units I have available right now are two Deff Dreads and two Deffkoptas which I opted to not use since I think the only thing I've managed to kill with them in 3 games were some ratlings.

I agree with Blackie, bring a weird boy instead of the PK warboss. Death guard is about tough units and has plenty of psychic powers, having a psyker to deny and smite is very valuable. Not to mention gaining access to Da Jump.
Another option would be switching the PK warboss for Mad Dok Grotsnik and the pain boy for a weird boy. The mad dok is basically a warboss and a pain boy rolled into one model, so you won't actually lose anything while gaining the weird boy.

For the nobz unit, don't spend too many points special weapons. I guarantee you, at least one nob is never going to swing his big choppa at anything. I advice using 3 BC and buy ammo runts for all your nobz (just use regular gretchin models). In this case BC are better than PCs as you'll be facing lots of 2 wound models or models with DR, and you don't want to roll a 1 for the d3 damage on either of them.

Last, I would actually field a single kopta instead of the warbikers because it is more likely to do anything with rokkits, bomb and kopta blades, while dakka guns are nearly useless against both primaris and death guard. But that's a matter of taste.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ballzonya wrote:
Question on the mek guns can you allocate wounds to the grots?

No, they split into separate units on deployment.

Ok thanks hope the codex you will be able to allocate lol

 Rismonite wrote:
Probably a YMDC question, but is it commonly accepted that tabling equals loss in maelstrom? It just so happens I had a game on Saturday where I was way ahead on welfare VP's but got tabled in my opponent's shooting phase in the top of turn 6. (Untimed game)

Yes, "Sudden Death" on pg 215 is quite clear on that.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

My experience matches Blackie's, 120+ boyz gets shot off the board in my meta. People tend to have more trouble with battlewagons in my experience. I also tend to like going second; with my battle wagons.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

Well, a trukk is only about 30% more durable vs an assault cannon than a boy. A t8 battlewagon with a ram is 37.5% more durable than a boy. And 181.25% less durable vs plasma, not talking about lazcannons and stuff like that.

 Blackie wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
What do your lists commonly look like Blackie? I'd like to use batllewagons more.

At 2000 points my favorite lists are a combination with these units: I usually have 2 BWs, one with 19 boyz plus a weirdboy with warpath or a warboss with big choppa, the second one with 2x10 boyz. Sometimes a third one with 2x10 boyz as well or 12 boyz plus 4 meganobz with killsaws. Then 1-2 trukks with 7-9 bustas and always 2 bomb squigs each, 2-3 single skorchas, 3-6 KMKs, biker boss or zhad, biker mek with kff and big choppa or killsaw and sometimes a morkanaut to act as a bullet magnet and eventually give the 5+ invuln to other vehicles. The naut and meganobz are more for casual games but they're not garbage IMHO and the weirdboy can help the meganobz by casting warpath on them.

...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geemoney wrote:
Blackie, that is my experience too.

My lists tend to be:

3 BW w/ ard case
2 units ~20 boyz
1 unit 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts

1 BW open topped
either Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz

8 Kustom Mega Kannons

Warboss on Warbike
Big Mek on Warbike
2 Wierd boyz
Kaptian Badrukk

I tend to deploy using the T8 Battlewagons combined with the grot gunners as a screen. I can usually control were opponent deepstrike in this way.

I have also found that I have to have a strong shooting phase in order to do well. Which is why I take so many mek guns. I have been considering taking two more. (up to 10).

I like it. How does the open topped BW perform in your games? I use trukks for tankbustas. What's the tactics around the two weirdboyz? One with warpath is certainly useful, and I typically include him in my lists as well, but the second one? Do you need da jump in a list with vehicles? I guess he's there only to smite though.

The open topped wagon is fine. I deploy in such a way that the 3 T8 wagons are a more immediate threat and tend to get shot first. I have used two trukks in the past, and two trukks are more difficult to protect. I do think you can make a good argument for using 2 trukks over 1 battlewagon...

The two weird boyz are primarily for smite. If I get a little lucky, this list can kill Mortarian/Magnus/Kharybdis in a turn if you throw them in my face; and the wierdboyz are part of that. I give one wierdboy Da Jump and the other Warpath. Da Jump tends to be more useful then Warpath; it is not that often that I need extra attacks morethen I need smite. I like to jump Grot gunners to get line breaker/objectives, jumping tankbustaz/flashgitz can be useful. If I am feeling real desperate I will jump a combat unit and try to make a 9" charge (although in my experience this almost never works even with rerolls, so I don't want to rely on it to win games).

I play this list more defensively and rely on durability, and always plan on going second, especially against deep striking lists. Sometimes it doesn't work and I get shot of the board on turn 1, but that is pretty rare (in my experience).

@Blackie, how do you use Meganobz, I have not been able to make them effective?

I find meganobz to be quite decent, generally. They got a points cut with chapter approved, generally have at least a 5+ save, and sometimes get to go first in melee.

Jumping decent sized squads works well, but transporting them with a waaaagh banner is better.

And, hell, a knot of meganobz with ghaz, warpath, a waaagh banner is a pretty hard-hitting unit, and generally difficult to remove from the field.

Painboyz help too, a bit for the 6+ FNP but also to restore wounds. And their 3 wounds is solid too.

 Geemoney wrote:


@Blackie, how do you use Meganobz, I have not been able to make them effective?

I embark 4-5 of them in a wagon with 10-12 boyz, all the meganobz have dual killsaws. They ride near another wagon with 19 boyz and a weirdboy, who can cast warpath on the meganobz. Tipycally going full boyz is more rewarding than bringing meganobz but if they find the appropriate target (that's the main issue about them) they can repay their points back. The killsaws are mandatory though, for just +6 points than a pk you'll get the +1A which helps with the -1 to hit and a better AP that matters against 2+ and 3+ save units with no invulns. I like to keep their wagon stock with no rolla since that vehicle is going to be a priority target.

As Kap'n Krump well said painboyz, ghaz and the banner are all best friend with meganobz, just spread out the eggs in several baskets, they just need the synergies in turns 2-3+.

But basically I play with meganobz because they're my favorite models and I like to field them anyway

Gorkanaught or morkanught? And what are you hoping for them with the new codex? I want a 50 point drop at least

ballzonya wrote:
Gorkanaught or morkanught? And what are you hoping for them with the new codex? I want a 50 point drop at least

Neither. If I had to take one, it would be the Gorkanaut. For the codex I hope their shooting gets a major buff along with a price drop. But I don't expect it. Eldar got a very strong codex, but the wraith knight is still super overcosted.

But what really needs some love in the codex is Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz. They are iconic Ork units and the models are really good. But right now they are pretty much unplayable.

It's a shame I love the model so I bought it and I'm leaning towards morkanught but to make it viable it needs a major points drop. I hope they do fix it I really do

 Geemoney wrote:


hyperbole....

A T8 transport that holds 20 models and has 6 attacks that hits on 2's at str 8 is good. However they are certainly over priced but not so much that I would call them trash. I like to take 3-4 in my lists, and I can bang around in middle tables just fine, which is about all you can hope with orks anyway.

As far as argument that goes "Well my opponent can kill them so they suck." 200 Boyz can be killed just as fast..so they must suck too.

I do agree that buying them guns doesn't make any sense.

YMMV, in my meta you see a lot of SM players with Girlyman gunlines and Tau/eldar shenanigans with their anti-tank tricks. There is 1 other ork player and 1 nid player who prefers big bugs so most of the meta is geared towards anti-tank and anti-monster/primarch. I tried fielding a 3 wagon Blitz brigade of sorts. Rollas and Boyz/nobz inside, in 3 games that day I lost 1-2 wagons on turn 1, in one game I lost all 3 from Eldar shenanigans. Now I am well aware this is anecdotal it doesn't take much to prove it across the board against the Net lists you see at GTs and what not. Against a gunline that is designed to kill hordes, yeah it will do good work, but against my META and the ITC net lists, they will die way to quickly. IF the 'ard top gave us a 2+ save then it would be a completely different story, but as it stands, T8 with a 4+ is just way to easy to kill with Plasma Spam and other anti-tank weapons.

SemperMortis wrote:
YMMV, in my meta you see a lot of SM players with Girlyman gunlines and Tau/eldar shenanigans with their anti-tank tricks. There is 1 other ork player and 1 nid player who prefers big bugs so most of the meta is geared towards anti-tank and anti-monster/primarch. I tried fielding a 3 wagon Blitz brigade of sorts. Rollas and Boyz/nobz inside, in 3 games that day I lost 1-2 wagons on turn 1, in one game I lost all 3 from Eldar shenanigans. Now I am well aware this is anecdotal it doesn't take much to prove it across the board against the Net lists you see at GTs and what not. Against a gunline that is designed to kill hordes, yeah it will do good work, but against my META and the ITC net lists, they will die way to quickly. IF the 'ard top gave us a 2+ save then it would be a completely different story, but as it stands, T8 with a 4+ is just way to easy to kill with Plasma Spam and other anti-tank weapons.

Yeah I play in a competitive META and have a mad max list, 3 trukks some with tankbustas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, kmks, dakkajets and some bike HQ... I want to add buggies/skorchas to the list for some earlier pressure and flexibility in deployment. That list has never won a game. But when I play "horde with KMK" i'm winning more than half my games in the same meta. I think its just a point issue, the vehicles statlines seem sensible enough (more wounds less armour sort of deal), and I actually think trukks are in a good spot, but the list in general is too inefficient.

The dumbest thing is that trukks only take 10 boyz, but if you're not taking 30 you're shooting yourself in the foot not once (20+ bonus) but twice (very vulnerable to morale). So they are literally there for Tankbustas and nothing else.

Question: are zapp gunz beter than kannon? (i know the best choice is KMK but in the big gunz category)

 petitflacheur wrote:
Question: are zapp gunz beter than kannon? (i know the best choice is KMK but in the big gunz category)

Kannonz are more versatile overall since they're a bit cheaper and they have two profiles so they can be useful as anti infantry if you need it. Zaaps are better as anti tank thanks to their AP and the possibility of causing mortal wounds, but like any other weapon with a random profile it's a bit unreliable. I'd take kannonz over them everytime.

And a KMK is only 12 points more expensive but gives you +3W +3 gretchin and a better weapon, there's litterally no reason for bringing zaap guns at the moment other than the fluff (I love the concept of zaap guns and sometimes I field them myself in some very casual games, always a battery of five).

Thank you
As i always play painted wysiwyg, zapp/kanon is much faster to field (3 models to paint) that the big KMK... but i will get there

I'd take zzap over kannons. None are good but zzap can at least cause mortal wounds once in a while.

Kannons are decent since they reliably wound T7 on 3+ and do more damage than zzap.

In the new world with Custodes being popular is there an argument for Zzaps over KMK? Nice AP and 3 Damage with the possibility of Mortal Wounds. Not sure if that negates the difference in shot volume of the only slightly more expensive KMK.

xlDuke wrote:
In the new world with Custodes being popular is there an argument for Zzaps over KMK? Nice AP and 3 Damage with the possibility of Mortal Wounds. Not sure if that negates the difference in shot volume of the only slightly more expensive KMK.

No. The KMK is much better than any of the other artillery options. The Zapp gun shines against Tyranid Warriors, Custodes, Tau battlesuits and the like, but even here the KMK is just straight up better.

I suspect you're right. It's turning into a long wait for the codex, I'm getting very tired of this Index.

I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

 Jidmah wrote:
I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

Yeah, it'd have to be 2D6+3 S rather than just 2D6 to consider it seriously as a weapon.

@xlDuke The reason why zzaps aren't much better against custodes is because even with 3 flat damage, the AP is somewhat irrelevant given that as long as you have AP-2 you're good enough since they're likely to be in a detachment where they get the +1 invuln. bonus, so they'll be gettting a 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save anyways. Furthermore, if you want to spam 3 damage weapons, rokkits are better at that, since you can be mobile and kite with them while always wounding on a 3+ and having the crucial -2 AP.

the 2d6 S is the real problem of that weapon

DG has a 2d6 strength weapon that is hands down the best one in the codex

I think the combination of one shot, unreliable BS and low damage is more of an issue than the strength. 2d6 is actually fairly reliable against stuff below T7.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

Yeah, it'd have to be 2D6+3 S rather than just 2D6 to consider it seriously as a weapon.

@xlDuke The reason why zzaps aren't much better against custodes is because even with 3 flat damage, the AP is somewhat irrelevant given that as long as you have AP-2 you're good enough since they're likely to be in a detachment where they get the +1 invuln. bonus, so they'll be gettting a 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save anyways. Furthermore, if you want to spam 3 damage weapons, rokkits are better at that, since you can be mobile and kite with them while always wounding on a 3+ and having the crucial -2 AP.

I wasn't aware of they were able to get +1 to their invulnerable saves via a detachment bonus, I've not had a thorough look at their rules yet just a cursory glance, so thanks very much for the tip. Yeah I've thought about Tankbustas in Trukks for anti-Custodes, it's just a shame that nothing else would really well well alongside them except Mek Guns, in which case why not just use more Mek Guns instead of 'bustas and use Boyz. It's all becoming very tiresome for me, I've got a lot of love for this faction but it becomes slowly more difficult to enjoy playing them.

Bring multiple weirdboyz and a green tide against custodes. They hate hordes since most of them are heavy hitters, only the bikes are very good at killing infantries and all your shooting should go into them. Custodes suffer mortal wounds a lot, more than rokkits since they have invulns. Bring a green tide with some weirdboyz and KMKs to target the bikes. Unless it's a list with tons of bikes you shouldn't have problems against them.

 Blackie wrote:
Bring multiple weirdboyz and a green tide against custodes. They hate hordes since most of them are heavy hitters, only the bikes are very good at killing infantries and all your shooting should go into them. Custodes suffer mortal wounds a lot, more than rokkits since they have invulns. Bring a green tide with some weirdboyz and KMKs to target the bikes. Unless it's a list with tons of bikes you shouldn't have problems against them.

Indeed! This will be Plan A.

After reading the blog post linked here by RDV (and reading a bit more on that blog.) I've come up with a list I want to try. Please chew on it and tell me what you think.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/752943.page#9881464

The bubble gun? serious?

 petitflacheur wrote:
The bubble gun? serious?

Kinda, I built when the Index dropped. I had 12 KMK's but now only have 2. I also built 6 Smasha guns. Which have worked out better than you might think.
I'm more surprised you didn't say that at the SAG mek. lol.

I can see the use of Zzap Gunz as taking out elite infantry with invulnerable saves, but I wish they were better tank hunters. When firing at most vehicles their special ability is not really of much benefit, since we would already most likely be wounding and they would already most likely be failing their save.

The Zzap Gun is pretty unreliable at taking out both elites with invulnerable saves and vehicles, which would be fine if it was less expensive than it is now.

I also hope it doesn't get cut from the Big Gunz options in the codex, as I don't think they actually sell a model for it any more, do they? We can get the gun itself as part of the Battle Wagon kit, and it's easy enough to kitbash, but I think they stopped making the model a while ago.

I jumped on GW's website and I actually couldn't find Kannons or Lobbas either. It wasn't just that they said "out of stock" or "no longer available" but rather there is no trace of them. I really hope this means that GW is going to make a new kit and not that Big Gunz are being cut from the Codex entirely.

They're called "Mek Gunz" now.

Mek Gunz and Big Gunz are two different units.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Mek Gunz and Big Gunz are two different units.

I feel like they'll be keeping them in one incarnation or another, given that they do exist as weapons options on the battlewagon. I think them being sold out has more to do with GW's current manufacturing capabilities being maxed out, which is why there's so many units out of stock currently on the store.

The thing is that they aren't sold out, they just don't appear on the webstore at all. They vanished entirely from the US web store.

I changed from US to NZ and they still have them.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm in a panic. I just thought it was curious as usually when something sells out they don't remove it from the website, they keep it there with a button to notify us through email when it becomes available again.

Personally I built my lobas, using this video as inspiration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dBiM6sgL4A

I did the same (well, Lobba singular since I've only built one so far)

I tried a bunch of bad ork units in a friendly game against T'AU.
And oh my god are the non-KMK Mek Gunz trash. Especially bubble. Most expensive. Roll a single 1-2 in the 4 dice and you get either 1-2 shots or str. So bad. The others are one shot on a 4+. Then you see KMK, which is by FAR better. :/ Tested game, you guys!

Also I got tankbustas with dogs and guess how many non-fly units he had - 0. So that was fun :p

I can now clearly see why DakkaJet is the competitive choice over Burna. No need to force movement, the enemy can just ignore burna after the 2 bombs. Bombs suck if the opponent is just a bunch of battlesuits, etc. Tried the 3 fast attack flankers. Solid meh.

The star was actually the deffrolla battlewagon with T8. Lasted 3 turns of focused fire.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The star was actually the deffrolla battlewagon with T8. Lasted 3 turns of focused fire.

Yes I really fancy dusting of a few of mine for the next game. What did you stick in them (if anything), Boyz?

20 Boyz seems like an issue because after 1 dies they all drop an attack but I feel that mob up can help mitigate this. The deff rolla itself is no joke. Just a shame mine is plastered in guns lol.

Roll a single 1-2 in the 4 dice and you get either 1-2 shots or str. So bad. The others are one shot on a 4+. Then you see KMK, which is by FAR better. :/ Tested game, you guys!

I tried that

The key has been roll the dice and assign the lowest dice to the stat it can't hurt the most. So, 2345. I', going to set the 2 to either AP or damage.
Or, Set it to strength. Yes that sucks but if you roll so many less than three you've got to figure it out. Point is it forces the other play to start putting higher numbers where you want them.
If i set it AP2, you might well make it St three. So I set it to 5 shots and were left with 4 damage.
However I have rolled several 5's and 6's and that was fantastic!

And that seems to work very well
Not stronger that the KMK but not soooo bad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The bad part is the price... it should be as chead as the others

Yep, that bubble chukka is a harsh mistress.
It cost a little too much but that's GW's usual for a random weapon that might be amazing. I completely understand why people don't like it.

Well, i like bubblechukka. It surely doesn't cost that much but it's fun to use and feels like a mini-game on it's own.

 petitflacheur wrote:

Roll a single 1-2 in the 4 dice and you get either 1-2 shots or str. So bad. The others are one shot on a 4+. Then you see KMK, which is by FAR better. :/ Tested game, you guys!

I tried that

The key has been roll the dice and assign the lowest dice to the stat it can't hurt the most. So, 2345. I', going to set the 2 to either AP or damage.
Or, Set it to strength. Yes that sucks but if you roll so many less than three you've got to figure it out. Point is it forces the other play to start putting higher numbers where you want them.
If i set it AP2, you might well make it St three. So I set it to 5 shots and were left with 4 damage.
However I have rolled several 5's and 6's and that was fantastic!

And that seems to work very well
Not stronger that the KMK but not soooo bad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The bad part is the price... it should be as chead as the others

... Holy crap, that's so smart. I just tunnel visioned into picking the highest for shots. But yeah, too expensive anyway.

... Holy crap, that's so smart. I just tunnel visioned into picking the highest for shots.

I felt the same way... that's obvious but i've never thought about it
Thanks warhead01

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 petitflacheur wrote:

Roll a single 1-2 in the 4 dice and you get either 1-2 shots or str. So bad. The others are one shot on a 4+. Then you see KMK, which is by FAR better. :/ Tested game, you guys!

I tried that

The key has been roll the dice and assign the lowest dice to the stat it can't hurt the most. So, 2345. I', going to set the 2 to either AP or damage.
Or, Set it to strength. Yes that sucks but if you roll so many less than three you've got to figure it out. Point is it forces the other play to start putting higher numbers where you want them.
If i set it AP2, you might well make it St three. So I set it to 5 shots and were left with 4 damage.
However I have rolled several 5's and 6's and that was fantastic!

And that seems to work very well
Not stronger that the KMK but not soooo bad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The bad part is the price... it should be as chead as the others

... Holy crap, that's so smart. I just tunnel visioned into picking the highest for shots. But yeah, too expensive anyway.

I'm glad I've helped if you not being sarcastic.

 petitflacheur wrote:

... Holy crap, that's so smart. I just tunnel visioned into picking the highest for shots.

I felt the same way... that's obvious but i've never thought about it
Thanks warhead01

I do what I can.

The lowest result should always go to the damage, unless you really need to kill/damage heavy infantries like custodes, but the appropriate target for bubblechukkas are MEQ or even TEQ if they don't have tons of high invulns.

The your opponent will probably put the other lowest result into the number of shots. This way you'll have high rolls for S and AP. If you manage to have 2-3 shots with some AP, S5+ and 1 damage you may kill something. The cost of the gun should be adjucted properly though, it doesn't worth more than 40 points including the gunners.

The lowest result can also go to the AP... ap -1 or -2 is still good enough... AP -5 i useless

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The star was actually the deffrolla battlewagon with T8. Lasted 3 turns of focused fire.

Yes I really fancy dusting of a few of mine for the next game. What did you stick in them (if anything), Boyz?

20 Boyz seems like an issue because after 1 dies they all drop an attack but I feel that mob up can help mitigate this. The deff rolla itself is no joke. Just a shame mine is plastered in guns lol.

Yeah losing the +1A sucks but 15-16 boyz should do the job anyway against infantries and again very armored stuff even 30 boyz may fail to do serious damage. You can go with 2x10 boyz and have 2 pks in the same wagon to increase the damage output. Or put 19 boyz and a warboss or a weirdboy with warpath in that vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 petitflacheur wrote:
The lowest result can also go to the AP... ap -1 or -2 is still good enough... AP -5 i useless

It's not if you target 2+ or 3+ save units. It's a bit overkill but way better than a -1 or even -2. Having 3 or 4 damage on a weapon with bad AP and number of shots is worse.

 Blackie wrote:
The lowest result should always go to the damage, unless you really need to kill/damage heavy infantries like custodes, but the appropriate target for bubblechukkas are MEQ or even TEQ if they don't have tons of high invulns.

The your opponent will probably put the other lowest result into the number of shots. This way you'll have high rolls for S and AP. If you manage to have 2-3 shots with some AP, S5+ and 1 damage you may kill something. The cost of the gun should be adjucted properly though, it doesn't worth more than 40 points including the gunners.

Yes it is very likely. The thing is it depends on what my goals for the weapon actually are and what numbers came up on the rolls. I wont say the Bubble Chukka is competitive, obviously too random to be relied on.
It's just that there are several things to look at when approaching this weapon. It can be good but it's a mater of chance and a little out smarting you opponent or at least trying to make your opponent do you work for you while stealing his obvious choices away. It's fun but not redundantly reliable. I wish it cost 5 points less but I'm always looking for more points to spend.

 petitflacheur wrote:
The lowest result can also go to the AP... ap -1 or -2 is still good enough... AP -5 i useless

It all depends, if the dice come up hot and you looking at a Land raider or some other vehicle. You can put the fear into you opponent if things go well and you have some luck.
Again I find it has a stronger effect on my regular opponents than it would on random players at a tournament. If they fixate on it that's something you should use to you advantage when you can. You may not feel lucky but if you always talk about the hot rolls some people tend to only remember the Hot rolls and think your lucky. ( Not directly applicable to competitive tournament play. )
Any way best of luck with your Bubble chukkin!

Edited.
I had one more thought I forgot to post.

I mentioned shooting at a vehicle. And we mentioned AP-5.
So, think about the needed to wound roll, if 3,4,5 and 6 would all need a 5+ to wound then don't give that stat a high dice.
In that case I would set the number of shots as the highest dice because I expect the strength to be set low, or I'd preempt that by setting the Strength to 3 if it had no possible change to the needed to wound roll.
I'd expect them to set the number of shots to the next lowest number. this leaves me with my next number being the lower of the two remaining and damage set the highest, by my opponents own hand!
So AP-5 and 6 damage in this scenario. If I wound they eat damage.

I sometimes feel that shooting a bubblechukka is more tactical than the rest of the game.

 koooaei wrote:
I sometimes feel that shooting a bubblechukka is more tactical than the rest of the game.

You hear that GW! Burn, Sick Burn!

 koooaei wrote:
I sometimes feel that shooting a bubblechukka is more tactical than the rest of the game.

It certainly requires more thought than most shooting units from other armies. Most are point and click besides some target prioritizing, like Lascannons and heavy bolters.

Can you still buy big guns though?

 RiderOrk wrote:
Can you still buy big guns though?

You can where I am: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Big-Gun-Kannon
If you don't mind using 3rd party miniatures, I'd recommend these as a good count-as, they're a little more sexy than the official model


Be great if they were replacing the old kit with a nice resculpted plastic one (better yet three)

With the Bubble Chukka, do you choose a target before or after you set the statline?

Before sadly

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Before sadly

The one from 7th used to but the new one doesn't say that any more. Or is it an order of operations thing with the shooting phase?

2.Pick target
3.Pick weapon

Before shooting the weapon. So you need to pick it. Which happens AFTER picking the target.

Done.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

 RiderOrk wrote:
Can you still buy big guns though?

You can where I am: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Big-Gun-Kannon
If you don't mind using 3rd party miniatures, I'd recommend these as a good count-as, they're a little more sexy than the official model

Spoiler:

https://bitsofwar.com/home/192-orc-howitzer-battery.html

Be great if they were replacing the old kit with a nice resculpted plastic one (better yet three)

Thanks. I love these! I wouldnt mind going 3rd party I just worry if I ever go somewhere where they require GW minis only. Does that happen allot? Granted I love 6 hours away from a GW store but what about tournaments?

There are tournaments with nearly only third party stuff (that tends to frustrate my GW store's manager ehehehe

I'm genuinely tempted to get a bubble chukka now after all this discussion about how interesting they are to play with...

I always take a bubblechucka as a 'fun tax' in low points games and it's surprisingly great sometimes. It's pretty great against multiwound infantry, and it feels so sweet when you roll all 6s. I one shot a Leman Russ with it once- 6 damage per hit is no joke. Even with average rolls it can do pretty good work.

KMKs are always better, but I always find room for a bubblechucka.

I've decided I went too far when I changed out all of my KMK's.
I just rounded up the bittz and can built a total of 3 KMK's I am thinking I want to add just tow more and keep 4 Smasha guns, 4 bubble chukkas and then have 4 KMK's. I really like the Smasha gun and Bubble chukka but they will be used in mass in games using power levels.

Just magnetize them? I can't find it right now, but there was a very good video tutorial on it.

Has anyone got any actual experience running a grot mega tank? I got one for fun and plan on scratch building another one, after dabbling with some values its actually looking appealing to me beyond just casual games.

From a hypothetical/mathhammer stand point:
In terms of points a trukk with 10/12 tankbustas is ~25.2/23.8 points per rokkit and a grot mega tank with 7 rokkits ~24.1 points per rokkit.
Tankbustas are very good at hitting vehicles but I've played many games where they get negated by a lack of enemy vehicles so they can just end up being dead weight.
Grot mega tank has a 1/6 chance of not shooting at all but saving CP for a re-roll isn't unmanageable, bringing it down to 1/36 chance. Also saving the CP to re-roll brings the expected hit rate up just a tiny bit. BS4+ against more then just one type of target is v appealing to me.
In terms of 'ardness, the grot mega tank looks slightly better to me by trading a wound for an invuln save. The random movement is a bummer, but not sure how much of an impact that'll make for a unit I intend to keep at rage, also advancing is isn't so bad with BS4+.


Anyway, let me know if you have any thoughts on it. I'm going to dabble with it tonight and see how it performs. If it doesn't work out I'll still be happy as I'm working on narrative list with them.

Does it's shooting degrade?

 koooaei wrote:
Does it's shooting degrade?

Nah, it doesn't have a damage track.

Ork vehicles should have an inverted damage track for some of their stats. Like trukks and buggies which get faster as they get more damaged as they get lighter from all the junk being blasted off them, maybe BS increases too, to represent the gunners getting Waagh'ed up by the thrill of bits of their tank flying off around them, stuff like that. Would help to differentiate the crazy way Orks build their vehicles and the insane faith their drivers, gunners and pilots have in their ramshackle monstrosities.

Fragile, but get more dangerous before dying rather than less.

As cool as that sounds I would 100% want more from the vehicle on deployment.

Trukk is gross, Trukkboyz with klawnob plus trukk is equal to 18 stormboyz plus klawnob. Trukk just needs to do more then score for those points.

I think for the grot mega-tank I would do Grotzookas only. 7 grotzookas would be 14d3 shots


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is my new fun thing to play. 3 big trakks with big lobbas with 2 skorchas. Its a fast moving wall of metal that can drop 6d6 (23-26) shots of str 6 -1 1dmg anywere on the table as the big lobbas do not need LOS. Then on top of that you got 6d6 auto hitting flamers to kill just waves of meat shield units. Having a movement stat of 14" is pretty awesome.

How many points for the big trakks?

For the grot mega tank, i always wanted one, if its good, i will buy one, the model is beautifull
Its 9w 6t and the save? 4+? a little squichy i guess

 Glitcha wrote:
I think for the grot mega-tank I would do Grotzookas only. 7 grotzookas would be 14d3 shots

Since they don't have an AP, grotzookas are pretty much worse big shootas against almost all targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glitcha wrote:
This is my new fun thing to play. 3 big trakks with big lobbas with 2 skorchas. Its a fast moving wall of metal that can drop 6d6 (23-26) shots of str 6 -1 1dmg anywere on the table as the big lobbas do not need LOS. Then on top of that you got 6d6 auto hitting flamers to kill just waves of meat shield units. Having a movement stat of 14" is pretty awesome.

Sounds like looted Plague Burst Crawlers

I gave the grot mega-tank a go in a friendly game with 7 kustom mega blastas, I found it surprisingly good. My opponent was playing death guard so I had to put up with a lot of toughness, saves, and disgustingly resilient. I was originally planning on running big shootas but realised it was too much over lap with my shoota boys.
I was running kustom mega kannons as well and found that they surprisingly complimented each other. The kustom mega kannons can output more dakka per a point but can be easily nullified by smart use of terrain. The grot mega tank was able to fire at the targets the kustom mega kannons couldn't. I had a big mek with kff hugging the grot mega tank and some boys the whole time so its relative squishiness was mitigated a fair bit. Also a 6+ invulnerable save can be surprisingly handy.
The fear of rolling multiple 1's and taking mortal wounds for each KMB was real but surprisingly unproblematic with a big mek nearby and the occasional +1 to hit from Mutiny!.

Still not sure if its the best use of points but I found it fun and effective. I think it would be very susceptible to focused fire, the randomness of the movement and shooting are less than ideal but are manageable. I never felt like I was ruined by the randomness and always had CP available just in case.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I think for the grot mega-tank I would do Grotzookas only. 7 grotzookas would be 14d3 shots

Since they don't have an AP, grotzookas are pretty much worse big shootas against almost all targets.
/quote]

I agree, I've dabbled with them and find that I'd rather spend more on a skorcha or just save the points and use a big shoota. The grotzooka can be a great performer when the conditions are right but you can't rely on that. The big shoota is just over half the cost, performs almost as good in those conditions, and is much more flexible.

Also, not heavy.

That's a shame, because I actually really love the idea of the grotzooka, I almost made one for my kan :(.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ork vehicles should have an inverted damage track for some of their stats. Like trukks and buggies which get faster as they get more damaged as they get lighter from all the junk being blasted off them, maybe BS increases too, to represent the gunners getting Waagh'ed up by the thrill of bits of their tank flying off around them, stuff like that. Would help to differentiate the crazy way Orks build their vehicles and the insane faith their drivers, gunners and pilots have in their ramshackle monstrosities.

Fragile, but get more dangerous before dying rather than less.

This sounds fun and fluffy but has the same problem Necron Reanimation Protocols has been running into this edition: it encourages wiping units with the rule from full to dead in one turn to bypass the rule entirely, incentivizes something that people already do and that can be done easily in most games. Basically people would just refocus target priority to destroy vehicles in one turn, which against squishy ork vehicles is no challenge. Don’t get me wrong, I like the lore implications and I think it’s an interesting house rule idea, but doesn’t fix the fundamental problems with ork vehicles at all.

So I'm getting tired of getting my butt kick in games by codex armies. I used to be one of the best ork players in my local meta. Now I can barely deal with any army that has any remote amount of synergy in their list. All the buffs, rerolls, and bonus stacked up just make it hard for me to feel like I can actually beat some of these armies.

I'm looking for some good ork strategies. Stuff that people have come up with to help fill the gap. Interesting combos. anything to get me out of this rout of a losing streak.

This is my most recent list

HQ
Zhadsnark
big mek on bike with kff and killchopa

Troops
5x 12man units of trukk boyz with nobz with PKx3 and big chopas. 3 big shootas and 2 rokket launchers

Fast attack
3 deff koptas
3 buggies with rokkets
12 warbikers

elite
pain boy on bike
nob with waagh banner

dedicated transports
5 trucks with big shootas and wreckin ballz.

 Glitcha wrote:
So I'm getting tired of getting my butt kick in games by codex armies. I used to be one of the best ork players in my local meta. Now I can barely deal with any army that has any remote amount of synergy in their list. All the buffs, rerolls, and bonus stacked up just make it hard for me to feel like I can actually beat some of these armies.

I'm looking for some good ork strategies. Stuff that people have come up with to help fill the gap. Interesting combos. anything to get me out of this rout of a losing streak.

This is my most recent list

HQ
Zhadsnark
big mek on bike with kff and killchopa

Troops
5x 12man units of trukk boyz with nobz with PKx3 and big chopas. 3 big shootas and 2 rokket launchers

Fast attack
3 deff koptas
3 buggies with rokkets
12 warbikers

elite
pain boy on bike
nob with waagh banner

dedicated transports
5 trucks with big shootas and wreckin ballz.

Buy 12 more boxes of boyz and perhaps 5 Mek gunz?

GW is there to provide new material for Battlescribe. Strategy? Tactics? What are you talking about.

In all seriousness, there is realy nothing you can do to noticeably increase your chances of winning vs more or less competitive lists with anything else other than listbuilding after you factor in all the elementary things like target priority and positioning. Of course you can loose even with top-tier lists vs weak lists but than it will only happen if you are VERY bad at thinking or don't know the game or something. After a couple games you master all those tricks and that's the best you can get without listbuilding. There is no even remotely challenging tactics involved.

Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

Here's recent-ish list that did well:
Snikrot
4x5 kommandos (2 flamers, nobs with choppas)
Thraka
2 weirdboyz
KFF big mek
KFF big mek on bike with big choppa
3x 30 choppa boyz (power klaw nobz)
Banner
Painboy
3 KMKs
2 Dakkajets

 jhnbrg wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
So I'm getting tired of getting my butt kick in games by codex armies. I used to be one of the best ork players in my local meta. Now I can barely deal with any army that has any remote amount of synergy in their list. All the buffs, rerolls, and bonus stacked up just make it hard for me to feel like I can actually beat some of these armies.

I'm looking for some good ork strategies. Stuff that people have come up with to help fill the gap. Interesting combos. anything to get me out of this rout of a losing streak.

This is my most recent list

HQ
Zhadsnark
big mek on bike with kff and killchopa

Troops
5x 12man units of trukk boyz with nobz with PKx3 and big chopas. 3 big shootas and 2 rokket launchers

Fast attack
3 deff koptas
3 buggies with rokkets
12 warbikers

elite
pain boy on bike
nob with waagh banner

dedicated transports
5 trucks with big shootas and wreckin ballz.

Buy 12 more boxes of boyz and perhaps 5 Mek gunz?

lol I own 300 boyz and 15 mek gunz...

Here's an even newer one. Took 3rd place in March Madness(62 people)
4 weirdboyz
painboy
weirdboy
30 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
12 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
3x5 tankbustas
4 KMKs

Big Mek (Might is right, killchoppa, KFF)
3x5 tankbustas
grot tanks (4x kmb and shoota, 1x 2 kmb and shoota)
battlewagon (ard case)
3x trukk

Now this one is really strange

[quote=Glitcha 727761 9890337 35282bea82b240d4453cda494fdb892b.jpg

lol I own 300 boyz and 15 mek gunz...

 Glitcha wrote:
So I'm getting tired of getting my butt kick in games by codex armies. I used to be one of the best ork players in my local meta. Now I can barely deal with any army that has any remote amount of synergy in their list. All the buffs, rerolls, and bonus stacked up just make it hard for me to feel like I can actually beat some of these armies.

I'm looking for some good ork strategies. Stuff that people have come up with to help fill the gap. Interesting combos. anything to get me out of this rout of a losing streak.

This is my most recent list
HQ
Zhadsnark
big mek on bike with kff and killchopa

Troops
5x 12man units of trukk boyz with nobz with PKx3 and big chopas. 3 big shootas and 2 rokket launchers

Fast attack
3 deff koptas
3 buggies with rokkets
12 warbikers

elite
pain boy on bike
nob with waagh banner

dedicated transports
5 trucks with big shootas and wreckin ballz.

I like the idea of getting in the opponent's face, but I worry that you've paid waaaaay too high a transport tax for too limit an effect. Leave trukks for specialist teams- boyz should be in squads of 30 being jumped or advancing.

My current "not just a bunch of boyz" 1250 list is:

3x KMKs
5 Nobz w/stabbas, kustom shootas, ammo runts
-in a no-frills trukk
10 tankbustas (I play tau a lot, so I don't bring bomb squigs)
-in a no-frills trukk
30 shoota boyz, 3 rokkits, kombi rokkit nob
1 warboss on bike
1Kaptin Badrukk
-in a Supa Skorcha big trakk
1 weirdboy

I like it because everything in the list can potentially do something first turn- be that jump and shoot, drive and shoot, or blast away as artillery. Scaling up to 1500, I think I'd add another tankbusta trukk- they are very, very good. Also, I've focused really heavily on rokkits and anti-armor, because it's where I struggle most. Everything in the list can at least scratch a tank, which feels good. Now, caveat, I haven't won with this list yet- but I've played 1 game vs tau, 1 game vs guard, and they were both really close, so I'm still pretty pleased.

 Glitcha wrote:
snip

There are two ways to increase your odds of winning, ideally used in combination with eachother;

1) Tournament rules (ITC, Maelstrom, other objective based missions) + maximum time limit (the less turns the enemy has total, the less boyz will die/better you'll be able to score)
2) Spam the only viable model we have, Boyz [which includes Stormboyz/Kommandos, in some numbers], plus support units; Wierdboy, KFF Mek, etc

Another viable unit is the KMK Mek Gun; it's got decent shooting/damage/range (not as much that last part).

I'm sorry, but anything else is simply less likely to work, at least until our codex comes out; Ork units, pound for pound, are inferior to other factions - and have less AND worse shooting. You're not going to win if you try to shoot them, or go with vehicles.

There are recent tournament lists to be found; which seem to place alright - but again, that's a combination of; tournament rules+timed turns+luck of the draw//matchups. The things that work there won't necessarily work in casual play.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

I don't believe there is any unit in the index that is a garbage unit. Each serves it purpose in your list if you give them a purpose to have. Even if it nothing more than being a meat shield.

 Glitcha wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

I don't believe there is any unit in the index that is a garbage unit. Each serves it purpose in your list if you give them a purpose to have. Even if it nothing more than being a meat shield.

I can confirm that Warbikers are very, very close to being a garbage unit. I mean they are a very expensive 'meatshield' with a focus on shooting in an index that can't hit many targets...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

I don't believe there is any unit in the index that is a garbage unit. Each serves it purpose in your list if you give them a purpose to have. Even if it nothing more than being a meat shield.

I can confirm that Warbikers are very, very close to being a garbage unit. I mean they are a very expensive 'meatshield' with a focus on shooting in an index that can't hit many targets...

Lol, if you think GW can balance every unit in the game, you're delusional. In every army at least 50% are just suboptimal garbage that only makes your list worse.

There are PLENTY of units that fill the exact same role and are straight up worse.

So anyone have any info on the runoured gorka morka box set due out in the fall? I just want to know if we are finally getting plastic ork terrain.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

I don't believe there is any unit in the index that is a garbage unit. Each serves it purpose in your list if you give them a purpose to have. Even if it nothing more than being a meat shield.

I can confirm that Warbikers are very, very close to being a garbage unit. I mean they are a very expensive 'meatshield' with a focus on shooting in an index that can't hit many targets...

Lol, if you think GW can balance every unit in the game, you're delusional. In every army at least 50% are just suboptimal garbage that only makes your list worse.

There are PLENTY of units that fill the exact same role and are straight up worse.

I didn't say anything about balance. I just said purpose and battlefield roles.

Same thing. You said every unit has a purpose. If you count "making the game harder/friendly" as a purpose, then I guess so :p

Well, FLG calls those units "situational" in their codex reviews

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an even newer one. Took 3rd place in March Madness(62 people)
4 weirdboyz
painboy
weirdboy
30 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
12 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
3x5 tankbustas
4 KMKs

Big Mek (Might is right, killchoppa, KFF)
3x5 tankbustas
grot tanks (4x kmb and shoota, 1x 2 kmb and shoota)
battlewagon (ard case)
3x trukk

Now this one is really strange

That is really strange. It doesn't look like that list makes any sense at all in the modern meta. I mean, smite is good against elite armies, but it seems like most armies wouldn't have that much trouble beatting it. Tankbustas go in the trukks. What goes in the battlewagon? Characters and 12 boyz to try and get 1st turn, and gain 3" extra movement? It just doesn't seem worth it. That battlewagon could be turned into a bunch more mek gunz and boyz. Also he couldn't spare 30 points for a unit of gretchin to run a batallion? Weird.

Well people are bringing antihorde weapons. This list pretty much is all transports


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also almost no orks in adepticon for some reason

 Glitcha wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well when you take so many garbage units and combinations - ofc you will lose.

I don't believe there is any unit in the index that is a garbage unit. Each serves it purpose in your list if you give them a purpose to have. Even if it nothing more than being a meat shield.

Garbage...no; but expensive as hell for what they do, off course
Deffkopta and bikers aren't worth the price
Also, trukks are easy to destroy (for the same amount off points you can take way many storm boyz... as fast and more flexible)
And it's sad to take units of 12 boyz

Trukks are kind of better to serve as weapon platform for tankbustas, lootas or shootas boyz

But i loved the theme of your army... it'should be a beautiffull band of speed freaks
But expensive spead freaks

To stay in the theme... more skortcha, some grot tanks, fill your trukks with tankbustan, take a battle wagon full off boyz maybe

And, a question for you guyz, the nobz on bike, are they good (IMO expensive but... il like big nobz so big nobz with big bikes.... )

So, I´ve got a match tomorrow against Blood Zucker Gitz...

I´ll probably run this list (1200 Points):

HQ
Big Mek with KFF
Warboss (Warlord with Eadwoopa)
Weridboy with Warpath
Weirdboy witch Da Jump

Troops
30x Boyz
30x Boyz
23x Gretchin --> I intend to use them for Screen purposes if I don´t get turn 1

Elites
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives
Nob with Waaagh! banner

2x Heavy Support
1xBig Trakk with supa-skorcha
1xMek Gunz KMK

Flyer
Burna-bommer

What do you guys think?

I like it
Grot are useless (really)

Oh stop, grots aren't useless. If the best lists in LVO had 90 grots, you can't call them useless....

tag8833 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an even newer one. Took 3rd place in March Madness(62 people)
4 weirdboyz
painboy
weirdboy
30 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
12 choppa boyz (big choppa nob)
3x5 tankbustas
4 KMKs

Big Mek (Might is right, killchoppa, KFF)
3x5 tankbustas
grot tanks (4x kmb and shoota, 1x 2 kmb and shoota)
battlewagon (ard case)
3x trukk

Now this one is really strange

That is really strange. It doesn't look like that list makes any sense at all in the modern meta. I mean, smite is good against elite armies, but it seems like most armies wouldn't have that much trouble beatting it. Tankbustas go in the trukks. What goes in the battlewagon? Characters and 12 boyz to try and get 1st turn, and gain 3" extra movement? It just doesn't seem worth it. That battlewagon could be turned into a bunch more mek gunz and boyz. Also he couldn't spare 30 points for a unit of gretchin to run a batallion? Weird.

I think the tankbustas go in the battle wagon.
The Weirdboyz go in one trukk.
The 12 Boyz I assume go in another trukk.
I have no idea what goes in the last trukk unless the tankbustas are taking bomb Squigs and are spread between battle wagon and a trukk?

Certainly an odd list.

Ming wrote:
So, I´ve got a match tomorrow against Blood Zucker Gitz...

I´ll probably run this list (1200 Points):

Spoiler:

HQ
Big Mek with KFF
Warboss (Warlord with Eadwoopa)
Weridboy with Warpath
Weirdboy witch Da Jump

Troops
30x Boyz
30x Boyz
23x Gretchin --> I intend to use them for Screen purposes if I don´t get turn 1

Elites
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives
Nob with Waaagh! banner

2x Heavy Support
1xBig Trakk with supa-skorcha
1xMek Gunz KMK

Flyer
Burna-bommer

What do you guys think?

For so few Boyz I'm not convinced the KFF mek is worth it. I don't think the banner Nob is either.

Might be worth dropping both and throwing more Boyz in there? Can you take Dakka jet instead of Burna Bomma? That might be worth doing too.

E -

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Oh stop, grots aren't useless. If the best lists in LVO had 90 grots, you can't call them useless....

He finished 55th rvd....