TedNugent wrote: Well, I keep looking at the shooting units against flyers and everything short of the KMK ends up being garbage just in terms of the raw mathhammer.
I understand that everyone is getting hung up on an easy hyperbole, but realistically what pure shooting options do orks have to take out a stormraven?
The best option is to ignore the flier and kill everything else and hope you have enough models left at the end oft the game. Any shot fired at a flier will do 50% (gretchin) or 100% more damage to non hard to hit units.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Bring back the old rule whereby if a unit of grots is between an enemy firing unit and a unit of ork infantry which are the target, the orks count as being in cover but every successful save they make results in one dead grot.
The problem is, that it is very often ambiguous when a unit is "between" two other units. But it is definitely a mechanism that is missing from the game: Like a ruin confers cover to units inside it, but a unit behind the ruin can be shot at with no penalty?
Gargazz wrote: 8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.
I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.
Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.
I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.
Well, I certainly don't want 4th edition back, but I want trukk-boyz, trukk-manz, walker-wall, and speed-freaks to be viable strategies. I don't care for gunlines, though. If Ork long range shooting remains second-rate, then that is fine with me.
All that jazz will be back... just be patient.
I think I am I would definitely rather have a good codex in June than a so-so codex in February.
Well you'll get a codex that GW thinks is good for selling the models that are stacking up in the warehouse, and you'll learn to like it!
Hope they give us a unit of flying bomb squigs in the codex. They would be like scourges in starcraft. Suicide units hitting on 2+ would be nice. And more squigs in general pls.
I was thinking Skorchas dont seem that bad for a unit with outflank. They handily outshoot any other weapon option.
Theyre still expensive as hell, but....
Idk, Gorkanauts, Morkanauts, kans, dreads, shootas, lootas, big guns, both transports, dakkajets;
All seem to be gak with the exception of the kmk and maybe a bomber. And kmks seem like an inconvenience to model and I'm not sure if a GW shop would allow a homebuilt kit over their crazy 40 dollar per gun kit.
For screen removal could they be useful for backfield presence?
Never mind, they changed advance to the movement phase.
This is why I keep looking at the damn index and I can't think of anything that doesnt involve jumping a 40 man boyz unit, greentide with or without buffbots, kmks, bombas or kommandos.
God, what an awful ruleset. Just please at least fix transport costs in the codex.
I keep imagining moving 120 boys across the board while trying to daisychain them to a warboss and painboy and it makes my nose bleed. Or converting Kmks.
Personally I'm going to go with a couple 40 man boyz units and a single weirdboy, jump them both with some kommandos to taste. Done, no mess. I figure getting people to accept sluggas with a couple of burnas per unit as a kommando proxy wont be too hard.
So: Kommandos. I haven’t used them yet (I haven’t played many 8th games) but I can field 30 of them with Snikrot. Which is the better deployment: 2 units of 15, 3 of 10 or 6 of 5? This would be in a Green Tide list with 110 Boyz, 15 Stormboyz and a Jumping Weirdboy, so I have plenty of other stuff that can charge 1st and 2nd turn too.
Then again, I also know this is the Moar Boyz edition, and those models could be used as another mob of 30 (they’re painted in camo as Blood Axes because I wanted the versatility to use them as either boyz or kommandos). Even using 2 units of 15 and kitting the nobz with BCs, that’s a boyz mob for 197 vs 2 Kommandos units and Snikrot for 353. You can get a lot of good stuff for ~150pts, like 5 Nobz w/runts or 8 Tankbustas w/squigs.
Is snikrot even necessary? He seems like the waagh banner nob and unnecessary for the same reasons.
Orks already excel at close combat. You should be focusing on staying alive or increasing probability of a turn 1 charge. More bodies and more units increase probabilities of that.
With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.
Think of each unit adding to that chance of success linearly leaving a margin for overwatch, spacing, and screening units and you've got a lot needed to make that work.
What does rerolling 1s really do for that strategy. You already know if you've made it to combat you're dealing significant damage and you've neutralized shooting for that unit.
I have been running a list using boyz in the place of 4 x 15 Kommandos; (something I hope everyone does, for cost sake) 2 burnas and a power klaw in each. For the turn they charged, they are solid; then you need something jumping/moving in for the follow up.
Squad size of 5 vs 15; The only thing I don't like about it is more drops but, I seem to roll higher when I don't get the +1. Most will say the extra burnas and nob+weapon is worth it, I was thinking of running 2 x vanguard with 12 x 5 kommandos. Won't get the +1, but 24 free burnas might actually make those points back! with 12 BC/PK nobs depending on whats in your local's usual fodder line. Sound fun to play anyway...
Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:
10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.
That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.
Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.
The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.
You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.
I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)
Thoughts guys???
They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.
Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:
10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.
That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.
Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.
The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.
You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.
I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)
Thoughts guys???
They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.
Go for it! If it appeals to you tactically and hobby wise then try it. Don't wait for the meta, create a new one! Even if it turns they are slightly sub-optimal, I'm sure they will have some strengths of their own that you can utilise. Rules change eventually, so if you don't like building 200 boyz there is no point to do so now if you are a patient person.
TedNugent wrote: With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.
Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds
KillerOfMany wrote: I have been running a list using boyz in the place of 4 x 15 Kommandos; (something I hope everyone does, for cost sake) 2 burnas and a power klaw in each. For the turn they charged, they are solid; then you need something jumping/moving in for the follow up.
Squad size of 5 vs 15; The only thing I don't like about it is more drops but, I seem to roll higher when I don't get the +1. Most will say the extra burnas and nob+weapon is worth it, I was thinking of running 2 x vanguard with 12 x 5 kommandos. Won't get the +1, but 24 free burnas might actually make those points back! with 12 BC/PK nobs depending on whats in your local's usual fodder line. Sound fun to play anyway...
I must have missed it somewhere, but where’s the +1 coming from?
I will probably just split the difference and run 3 units of 10 to see how it goes then adjust from there. I like Snikrot for a couple reasons - rerolling 1’s on 3+ is just really good - you’re essentially getting extra attacks that then have a really good chance of hitting, and in smaller units that seems like it’d be crucial. Only missing on 2’s in that first attack roll for a first turn charge seems fantastic. Forcing a higher morale test for other units I just decimated seems useful too. Plus I have a really badass kitbashed model that comes close to the official one, except I got it for free using spare bitz
Painting 35 models in one batch has got me thinking about ways to get my model count down. So what do you guys think of this unit:
10 nobs with power stabbas and shootas.
That's 200 points vs 197 for 30 boys with pk.
Nobs have 20 wounds and the 4+ which I think makes them as good as 30 boys survival wise.
The -2 ap and 5s on the stabba goes a long way to making up for the difference in attacks, although statistically choppa boys win in anything up to t8.
You can also give them kustom shootas for 40 points for 20 more shots. Not sure if want to drop that many points in one unit but would make them great for shooting one group and Charing the next.
I think fitting in a transport, not dropping in efficiency like boyz when they are below 20 models, the 4+ save, s5, 2ap are all plus points. Oh and only pairing 1/3rd of the models (and much better models)
Thoughts guys???
They also have the bonus of being able to fit in a trukk if they become viable again.
Make sure to buy a box of gretchin and use them as ammo runts. They are basically 10 extra wounds for your nob unit for 40 points.
As for power stabbas - they haven't pulled their weight for me yet. In many cases, the basic choppa does just as well, and in other cases you need a PK or big choppa. In any case at least two or three nobz are usually going to die, so in a unit of 10 just have 3 without any extra wargear and kill them off first.
As for power stabbas - they haven't pulled their weight for me yet. In many cases, the basic choppa does just as well, and in other cases you need a PK or big choppa. In any case at least two or three nobz are usually going to die, so in a unit of 10 just have 3 without any extra wargear and kill them off first.
What are they under performing against? The attaction for me is they are only 3pts and add nice -ap punch.
Do you find basic choppa Nobs good?
My first 5 Nobs are actually all PKs, so I could potentially end up with some mixed squads. Point for point the pk nobs are the best we have against high save t8 (I've done the maths).
Azhday wrote: Do Slugga&Choppa Nobz have their place? Maybe in Trukks? Would that 5 str compared to Boyz' 4 str make much difference?
Not much difference, no. Nobz damage-output per point is decent enough, but still much less than basic boyz. The only exception is against T8 targets, where Nobz are better whether they have a choppa, big choppa or klaw. But of the three the klaw is the better choice now that it is cheaper.
Vanilla nobz still have a place though, as you typically don't want to eat into your expensive klaw Nobz with your first casualty. Take a mix between Klaws and Choppas, with the odd big choppa thrown in.
Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.
I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.
Nobz on warbikes are pretty expensive. In a unit like you're describing, you're averaging something like over 50 ppm.
While that shooting may seem impressive, just under a meq a turn, if he's advancing cut that in half.
Then keep in mind you can get two warbikers for that price for twice the dakkagun shots. Compare that to a comparable marine unit. The skorchas would be the major dealbreakers but we're talking almost 20 points for 3.5 s5 hits.
Let me run some math on purely ranged nob bikers with kombi skorchas. I dont think anybody's talked a lot about that. Its over 60 ppm but I'm curious what the math shows. Each skorcha is roughly 1 MEQ. The dakkaguns are roughly .8 MEQs and .05 MEQ with the shoota if you dont advance. So best case scenario, 2 dead MEQs at 22 inch threat range per turn for over 60 ppm. Compared to shoota boys that's twice the damage output at a 24" threat range, assuming you could get them all in range to shoot in a full unit.
Conversely, if you advanced, thats .4 dead MEQs from the shooting and one dead MEQ from the skorcha.
I really dont know. They're fast but synergize poorly and are expensive. Considering the cost, I dont know that t5, 4+ and 3w is that outstanding. Compare it to comparable units in the price range. This could be worth the thought experiment. Each warbiker unit can also have a free nob with a kombi skorcha.
Without knowing any better, yeah it doesnt sound too bad compared to the rest of the index. If nothing else it's fast and can shoot and assault which I cant say for - buggies, lootas, burnas, tankbustas, kans/dreads, koptas, nauts....
In assault, the weapons are expensive still....you're talking a measley 4 s5 attacks per model unless you spend another at least 7 points.
ajax_xaja wrote: Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.
I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.
If you want bikers for their shooting just field regular bikers. You'll get way more shots and bodies for the same amount of points. I think units of 3 or 6 bikes are ok in semicompetitive metas, but you need a list full of T5 or higher T. They're overcosted and usually buggies do the same job for cheaper but they may do something in a list that suits them.
mrtomski wrote:What are they under performing against? The attaction for me is they are only 3pts and add nice -ap punch.
There basically two ways they don't pull their weight against:
1) targets with little armor to ignore. Pox walkers, daemons, orks and assault terminators (3++) only let you ignore one or not armor when striking them, so the extra attack would simply be better against them. Especially with a banner nob nearby an extra save is better than -1 to armor.
2) targets with good armor and many wounds don't care about the stabber either. Against a T6+ model with save 3+ a stabba is doing .44 damage, a choppa .3 - IMHO not enough of a difference to spent 3 points.
Which basically leaves the stabba to be good against marines, but nobz already kill those dead twice over.
Do you find basic choppa Nobs good?
Nope. But 10x stabba is 30 points. 2x PK and 8x choppa is 26 points, 4x BC and 6x choppa is 28 and either do better against almost all targets.
I had the best results with either 3xPK or 5xBC, each riding a battlewagon. Both units with max shootas and ammo runts of course.
Azhday wrote:Do Slugga&Choppa Nobz have their place? Maybe in Trukks? Would that 5 str compared to Boyz' 4 str make much difference?
Well, more of a place than boyz have anyways. A unit of nobz in a trukk is always stronger than a unit of boyz in a trukk, since they also have more attacks.
In my experience the best use for slugga&choppa nobz is catching bullets for nobz with valuable wargear.
pismakron wrote:Vanilla nobz still have a place though, as you typically don't want to eat into your expensive klaw Nobz with your first casualty. Take a mix between Klaws and Choppas, with the odd big choppa thrown in.
I've also found that taking small arms fire (without AP) on nobz instead of gretchin increases the durability of a nobz unit by a lot. Put that 4+ armor to work
ajax_xaja wrote:Are people playing Bikers at all? Had a game with a buddy who ran 5 Nob bikers with Power Klaws and a skorcha or two. Ran alongside a Warboss on a bike.
I was not prepared for how fast they can get across the table, and underestimated the amount of shooting that they put out (just found out you can replace their sluggas with shootas). That's 6 dakkagun shots and 2 shoota shots per bike! 3 wounds per model is also pretty tanky, they soaked up a lot more shots than I expected.
Matches my experience, but in they end a dedicated anti-tank or anti-elite unit wipes them out with little to no effort. For their price, you can't even argue that they draw fire from more valuable targets, because I can't think of any but nauts.
To add insult to injury, nobz in battlewagons are a lot harder to kill and cost almost the same.
I've ran Nob bikers and found them to be lacking. As has been stated already, on paper they seem decent but when you factor the cost and fact that every multi damage weapon your opponent has will be firing at them they soon disappear. They simply aren't durable enough with the 4+, no invulnerable and no ability to take ammo runts.
Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.
I would take more warbikes over Nobs on bikes, their shooting is roughly the same and you have other options for melee damage.
TedNugent wrote: With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.
Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds
I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.
The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.
The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.
I recently ran a 5 nob biker squad with kombi-rokkets. It was really expensive, but when you add dakka dakka strat to them it was awesome.
How well are Orks standing against the new Deamons? Is it necessary to fear a blob of 30 Bloodletters or Plaguebearers or can 30 boys take such a charge? 30 Pink horrors is for sure as bad 30 Termagants.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.
The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.
Hes talking about warbiker mobs. Warbiker boss nob can only exchange his choppa.
Nora wrote: How well are Orks standing against the new Deamons? Is it necessary to fear a blob of 30 Bloodletters or Plaguebearers or can 30 boys take such a charge? 30 Pink horrors is for sure as bad 30 Termagants.
30 Bloodletters from the index already evaporated boyz on the charge and died miserably when getting charged, and that hasn't changed. They might have more buffs now, improving their chances of getting the charge, or hitting harder when they do. Make sure to guard your KMKs from deep strikes, as 30 bloodletters+herald can deep strike and charge rerollable 3d6+1" for 4 CP. If you leave them unattended, their skulls will be collected. Khorne still has little in terms of defense, so their stuff dies if you get the charge.
Plaguebearers on the other hand are a lot less impressive. Without buffs they basically just refuse to die (1 attacks, hit on 4+), but if Poxbringer (old herald) and the Scrivener (+2" movement, +1 to hit, bonus attack on 7+) are nearby they become both fast and deadly. There is also a ton of skills adding fallen plaguebringers back to units.
Nurgle in general has rather few things to handle hordes, but will totally ruin your day if you have models with multiple wounds. A daemon prince with hellforged sword can do up to 7 damage per attack.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Interestingly, I don't think the Nobs in warbiker mobs can take skorchas, they are limited to melee upgrades only.
The index seems to disagree. They can trade their slugga for any weapon from the shooty list, including kombi-skorchas. It makes them more expensive than skorcha buggies though, which have twice as many wounds per model.
Hes talking about warbiker mobs. Warbiker boss nob can only exchange his choppa.
Nobs on bikes can get shootas or choppy upgrades.
^ This.
We know pure Nob bikers can take shooty weapons but Nobz in warbiker units can't as far as I'm aware?
That's right, they can't even have a regular choppa. Sorry I misread.
Warbikers outshoot biker nobz even if you factor in shootas, I did the math a couple of pages ago.
In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.
Jidmah wrote: That's right, they can't even have a regular choppa. Sorry I misread.
Warbikers outshoot biker nobz even if you factor in shootas, I did the math a couple of pages ago.
In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.
Lol they can't even take a standard Choppa?! Isn't it their default weapon? Jokes if they can't.
Yea I agree with you on Skorchas, they're just too expensive for the damage output. Maybe if they had an extra -AP?
Scratch that, I should stop quoting rules from memory while on pain killers.
As for skorchas, my Death Guard army has those awesome drones (think super-tough deff koptas), which have 2d6 flame throwers.
Those 'feel' right for what skorchas should do, so simply upping their shots to 2d6 would probably be enough to actually justify spending 19 points on them, without becoming broken - it's still worse than a twin assault cannon on BS3+.
TedNugent wrote: With rerolling charges the chance of a successful charge should be just under 40% at nine inches.
Somebody mathhammered it and found that making a 9”charge with orks rerolling is about 48% - decent odds
I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.
Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.
In my experience skorchas are not that awesome on CC units. Usually, when you are in range to skorch, you're also in range to charge it, so unless you don't want your model in combat (usually big meks), you're better off just buying a PK or killsaw instead.
My experience is just the same, I always bring PKs over Skorchas for this reason.
I recently ran a 5 nob biker squad with kombi-rokkets. It was really expensive, but when you add dakka dakka strat to them it was awesome.
5 Nobz with kombi-Rokkitz costs 280pts. They put out 30 S5 shots hitting on 5s and 5 S8 shots using dakka dakka strategy you are likely to get 1.5 extra hits with S5 and you have a 30% chance to get 1 extra S8 hits. Nothing about that sounds good at all. For the same price you could have taken a bit over 10 warbikes who put out 60 shots at S5 and would get 3 extra hits using dakka dakka strategy. And that is still crap.
Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)
Azhday wrote: Any point in taking MA Warboss? What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)
The MA armour warboss got slightly better with the PK price drop from CA, unfortunately, he's still expensive and the 2+ save won't do much good against dedicated CC units and he's slow to boot. Since transports are so expensive this edition this makes him much more of a liability compared to foot/biker Warbosses. The other problem is that he can't take the relic BC since he doesn't have access to it, making him even worse off. Ultimately, if you want to go MA warbosses, it's better to go all in and just invest in ghazghkull, who has normal WB movement, a more accurate and much harder hitting powerklaw and the invuln. save to actually keep him alive.
MA needs a significant price drop to make it worth taking compared to the other Warboss options, or something like a built in invuln.
Azhday wrote: Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)
Too slow. I'm already angry about 5" movement, which enrages me slowly as I think about it.
4" is unbearable. A) 1" lag behind boys B) need overpriced transport C) double occupancg in transport D) no point jumping him over a boys or meganobs unit
I agree. My MA Warboss was the star of my 7th list and is probably the kitbash I'm most proud of, but I've fielded him maybe twice the edition, and those two times were enough to know that he's just garbage, now.
Azhday wrote: Any point in taking MA Warboss?
What do you think GW will do with him in Codex or what would you change so it becomes more useful? (sorry for whishlisting post)
The MA armour warboss got slightly better with the PK price drop from CA, unfortunately, he's still expensive and the 2+ save won't do much good against dedicated CC units and he's slow to boot. Since transports are so expensive this edition this makes him much more of a liability compared to foot/biker Warbosses. The other problem is that he can't take the relic BC since he doesn't have access to it, making him even worse off. Ultimately, if you want to go MA warbosses, it's better to go all in and just invest in ghazghkull, who has normal WB movement, a more accurate and much harder hitting powerklaw and the invuln. save to actually keep him alive.
MA needs a significant price drop to make it worth taking compared to the other Warboss options, or something like a built in invuln.
You can swap out the kustom shoota for an item on the choppy weapons list, so the MA warboss could take the relic but then they'd carry two melee weapons. The regular warboss can do the same which I have been considering so I can have a warboss with headwoppas killchoppa + the relic. I rarely get any use out of the shooty weapon so even though it seems like an awkward choice it might provide some nice flexibility.
I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.
Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.
My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.
In real games, if you roll a 5-6 on one die when you charge, you're better off spending this 1 CP on the second one if you want this charge to happen. However, if you roll below 4 on both, there is sure no reason to waste a cp waiting for 5-6.
Quackzo wrote: My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.
Those numbers presented in a weird way. So for clarity:
Rolling 9+ with 2d6 is a 27.77% chance.
Re-rolling both dice of the failed 72.22% with the same odds increases your chance by 20.06% for a total of 47.83%
Of all possible results that could fail a 9" charge only 15 would have a four, five or six in it, which is 41.66%
For the seven results with a four, you have a 33.33% chance to succeed (better than rolling 9+ with 2d6!)
For the six results with a five, you have a 50% chance to succeed
For the four results with a six, you have a 66.66% chance to succeed
So, after spending a CP, you have an average chance of 53.33% to make that one roll.
However, you general chance to succeed the charge increases by 22.22%
Re-rolling both dice of the remaining 30.06% get another 8.49% chance for a total of 27.77%+22.22%+8.49% = 58.49%
So using the CP to re-roll one dice if you have a 4+ grants about 10.43% (give or take a hundredth percent) increased chances to succeed charges from deep strike over not using them.
In comparison, +1" charge ranges grants almost 25% increased chances to assault from deep strike.
Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to spend CPs on making important charges, but you still have huge chance of failure.
edit: fixed post according to Quackzo's calculation
I did some mathhammer myself, if you're willing to spend CP then if at least one of your dice is 4+ it's better to re-roll the other dice. This will bring the odds up to 57%.
Gosh, you're right the index states you can reroll not must. Not sure it's worth for a 4 (6-7% more chance for a CP) but if you have a 5+ and really want that charge, you definitely should spend a CP.
How could I've missed that.
Breaking heads is optionnal too.
My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.
That was my point exactly, using a cp while keeping a 4 (and I'm nbot talking about a 5 or 6 as I think it's worth it) make you spend a CP for not a lot of added chance to get the charge. But I'd still consider it on a particuliarly critical charge roll.
About the PKs, I know they are back with the point drop but I've still problems with it. I find them really unreliable and lacking for their cost.
PKs are in my idea anti armor weapon (as other models with a high save generally have invul anyway). But generally you have a pk with a bunch of choppa (boyz, stormz, kommandos, etc...) whose attacks are "kinda" wasted against armor (and I know it's only kinda in 8th)
In my opinion, Pks are only really worth in dedicated anti-armor CC units who can brings several of them (nobz, meganobz) or characters but not on "sergeant" nobz.
For 13 Points, the are still great at killing units with good saves, even more so if they are multi-wound or FNP models like terminators, primaris or plague marines.
Just don't expect them to kill tanks or monsters. D3 damage is for killing elite infantry, d6 kills stuff with 7+ wounds.
Okay so how to deal with armor ?
Tankbustas need a transport and their damage output is not crazy, so not that great.
And please don't answer "just ignore it and take objectives", even if it's the best thing to do. I know it's a competitve thread, but if for what ever reason you really had to deal with armor, what would you guys bring ?
Quackzo wrote: My reasoning for keeping the 4, was that you would need to roll a 5+ on the other die which has probability 1/3. Rolling 9+ on 2d6 has probability 5/18. Scrapping the 4 and using 'Ere We Go instead we get a probability of 56%. So it's about the same and we get to keep our 1 CP.
Those numbers presented in a weird way. So for clarity:
Rolling 9+ with 2d6 is a 27.77% chance.
Re-rolling both dice of the failed 72.22% with the same odds increases your chance by 20.06% for a total of 47.83%
Of all possible results that could fail a 9" charge only 7 would have a four, five or six in it, which is 19.44%
For the four results with a four, you have a 33.33% chance to succeed (better than rolling 9+ with 2d6!)
For the three results with a five, you have a 50% chance to succeed
For the two results with a six, you have a 66.66% chance to succeed
So, after spending a CP, you have an average chance of 59.52% to make that one roll.
However, you general chance to succeed the charge increases by 11.58%
Re-rolling both dice of the remaining 52.77% get another 14.66% chance for a total of 27.77%+11.58%+14.66% = 54.02%
So using the CP to re-roll one dice if you have a 4+ grants about 6.18% (give or take a hundredth percent) increased chances to succeed charges from deep strike over not using them.
In comparison, +1" charge ranges grants almost 25% increased chances to assault from deep strike.
Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to spend CPs on making important charges, but you still have huge chance of failure.
I'll be more clear and explain my working. You're correct about re-rolling a failed charge, but you've done some miscounting after that part.
7 outcomes with a 4: (1,4), (2,4), (3,4), (4,4), (4,3),(4,2), (4,1)
Given that you fail, you have 7/36(~19.4%) chance of getting at least one 4.
Given that you've kept a 4 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 1/3 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 7/108, or ~6.5%.
6 with a 5: (1,5), (2,5), (3,5), (5,3), (5,2), (5,1)
Given that you fail, you have 6/36(~16.7%) chance of getting at least one 5.
Given that you've kept a 5 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 1/2 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 1/12, or ~8.3%.
4 with a 6: (1,6), (2,6), (6,2), (6,1)
Given that you fail, you have 4/36(~11.1%) chance of getting at least on 6.
Given that you've kept a 6 and re-roll the other die, then you have a 2/3 chance.
The probability of those two events occurring in sequence is 2/27, or ~7.4%.
The point I was trying to make in my second post is that you get the highest probability when you keep a 4+ and spend CP but the probability of only keeping on a 5+ and spending CP is close enough to consider it as an option.
So I'll run through the computations of each case:
Spending no CP:
5/18 chance to succeed + (13/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go = ~47.8%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 6:
5/18 chance to succeed + (11/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~52.2%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 5+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (4/9)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~55.9%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 4+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (1/4)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 + 7/108 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~56.9%
So clearly re-rolling when you have at least one 4+ die grants you the best chance of success, but if you're worried about your CP than it is not unreasonable to use 'Ere We go when you have a 4, and choosing to only use CP for a 5+.
Ah right, I forgot the reverse results, I'll edit my post so no one gets confused.
It's just a 2% difference though and my conclusion is the same as yours. So, two people on dakka agree! Yay! *marks callender*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IronSlug wrote: Okay so how to deal with armor ? Tankbustas need a transport and their damage output is not crazy, so not that great.
And please don't answer "just ignore it and take objectives", even if it's the best thing to do. I know it's a competitve thread, but if for what ever reason you really had to deal with armor, what would you guys bring ?
The only units that can reliably take out armor are tank bustas, KMK and kannons, in that order. The KMK has the best point efficiency, durability and range, so it's the clear winner, but there are few vehicles that survive 9 tank busta rokkits, a tank busta bomb and two squigs. Kannons are pretty much the horde attempts, bring 10+ and they will start taking out a vehicle or two per turn, maybe even a flier. A couple of bubble chukkas could also annihilate a vehicle, but they are very vulnerable to bad dice luck. All other sources of rokkits are too expensive and too few rokkits to actually make a difference.
In combat, the only things I have seen take down vehicles with ease are Ghazkhull Thrakka and the Gorkanaut. Dreads would work in theory, but in practice they simply don't reach their targets before dying.
I guess you could also bring a stompa if you feel like playing with a 500 point handicap. Hilariously, I witnessed a game at the GW on Thursday where a guy with a stompa tabled someone running one of the finest chaos-soup there is. I guess he didn't expect the stompa to one-shot Mortarion on turn 1 and later kill Magnus as well. Well, no one expected that, not even the fellow with the stompa.
A more practical question, is it better to have 32mm base on our orks or the usual 25mm? A bigger footprint allow us to have a greater reach, however, I find myself often in little spaces with too many models to let them all attack.
What do you guys thinks is best?
I made a little chart that lists the probability of a making a first turn or second turn charge against a (non moving) enemy at various distances. Cheers:
I feel like the wording of mob up is open enough that I could merge a unit of 10 shootas with 30 sluggas, and vice versa.
I'm thinking of jumping a 40 man mob and this appeals to me. 3 sluggas replaced with big shootas, plus 8 shootas and another big shoota, kustom shoota on the nobs.
That works out to 8 shootas, 2 kustom shootas, and 4 big shootas in a unit with 25 choppa/sluggas and 2 power klaws.
Conversely that could be 4 big shootas, 2 kustom shootas, 26 shootas in a unit with 8 slugga boys and 2 pks.
Personally, I prefer jumping shoota boyz, because they still do something if they fail their charge.
Anything that get hit by 40 charging shoota boyz is not going to get up afterwards anyways.
Damn I never realized you can mix and match boyz. That makes them primo as hell.
You could deploy a slugga front layer with dual pk nobz for guaranteed slugging and close combat destruction with the shoota rearguard for increased reach to increase likelihood of range when shooting, with the big shootas in the back. Then take casualties from the shootas in the rear. That mix kinda takes the shoota slugga dichotomy out of the mix and further balances the versatility of shoota boys.
A 40 man shoota squad kills just about 4 and a half meqs at full bs, so I'm thinking thats one combat squad deleted more or less, then mass charge and eviscerate whatevers left.
Why bother footslogging or even worse, using transports.
Thats 2 troop slots per unit. Guaranteed max leadership and the extra cc attacks including on the pk nob, and no wasting points on useless hqs for clustery daisychains and unbearable movement phases.
Just show up, boom. Then roughly 50 for a t1 charge, or guaranteed second. If they countercharge, overwatch from hell unless they direct a gakload of fire which I would assume they would. Even then whats the chance of chewing through more boys than would force that full unit to flee.
Then kommandos to taste with snikrot for a batallion detach as support. Teleport the second unit T2 with guaranteed jump for anuvva go.
This eliminates literally all the 5" move footslogging, hq/buffbot daisychaining garbage and overpriced transports from the equation.
Literally the only drawback is psychic focus, but the first one and the kommandos come in t1 with or without the second boyz unit.
Pepin wrote: What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?
It is totally useless.
I feel the same. From my experience I get like 1 good shot off with the smasha gun, maybe some other shots with the other guns. Then by the second turn it has been damaged enough that it drops in BS and rarely hits anything. I think if you want flyers go with dakka jet or burna bommer. Dakka jet can hit things, burna bomms look really effective and you get a bonus bomm in the plane exploding.
Pepin wrote: What experience have people have with the Wazbom Blastajet?
It is totally useless.
Do you mind elaborating?
It is very expensive and has almost no damage output. Its main gun is essentially a weak las-cannon, and the other guns are plasmas hitting on 5+ and frying the host aircraft on a 1. The KFF is nice to have, but it would have been better on pretty much any other platform than a supersonic flyer. If you want an aeroplane go for the dakkajet or bunabommer. Both of them are decent.
It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.
Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?
TedNugent wrote: It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.
Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?
What about the bommas?
The bomma isn't as good as the burna because its ability only activates on vehicles which are rarely in squads. Now, if it was something like 1d3 damage against vehicles (which it should be) it would definitely be better. Still better than the wazbom, though.
Coh Magnussen wrote: When running a KFF Mek (intended to hang back with the artillery), what do you typically put on his other arm?
If it's just some stock big mek, just a choppa. Keep him as cheap as possible. Even with a PK or KS, he's pretty much dead if he gets into CC, which is where you don't want him to begin with since his aura only works in shooting.
I modeled one a while back with a PK because I thought it looked cool, but now that they’re 13pts I can actually *use* it. A Big Mek is still a Nob - same toughness, strength, 4+ save - but with the 4 wounds of an HQ so he’s a little tougher. You can have a KFF Big Mek join in the fun this time.
But yeah, if he’s just guarding artillery, he doesn’t need anything special.
TedNugent wrote: It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.
Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?
What about the bommas?
Thanks for that. Depending on the mission you play, having the ability to go anywhere on the board and distract the enemy has a lot more value beyond just the number of wounds it will make. In ITC style missions I can imagine that having a flyer with an Ork infantry army that tries to spread the board and control objectives could be helpful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coh Magnussen wrote: When running a KFF Mek (intended to hang back with the artillery), what do you typically put on his other arm?
Keep him as cheap as possible. What I struggle to do is keep the artillery in his bubble while also using them to spread the deployment zone and deny deepstrikers.
TedNugent wrote: It looks like the burnabomber puts out 5 mortals on a unit of 10. Just based on mathhammer for that alone I dont see anything of comparable price that can do more than half that. At least the potential for it to do damage is quite good.
Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results?
What about the bommas?
I've played with bombas and dakkajets, usually as a one of. I've found the that movement of the unit is more valuable than the damage it does. However, it does enough damage to be happy about if it survives two or three turns. I often use dakkajets now because the movement is more flexible, I don't have to fly over a unit. I use the flier as the closest unit a lot, for example if my weirdboy is alone after a jump, i'll make sure my plane is in the way so he cant be shot. If a flank is getting crushed and there are KMK grots hanging around there, I'll send the plane there to be the closest unit, protecting ALL the grots. Against less experienced players, or people who are unfamiliar with my list, I'll try to catch characters with the dakkajet, if its somewhere near a 4+ sv 4 wound model I'll usually give it a go. Generlally most of these things can only be done with a dakkajet. However sometimes there are REALLY great targets for the bomba that you would never be able to hurt otherwise. Huge plague marine squad, genestealer broods, etc.
Quackzo wrote: The point I was trying to make in my second post is that you get the highest probability when you keep a 4+ and spend CP but the probability of only keeping on a 5+ and spending CP is close enough to consider it as an option.
So I'll run through the computations of each case:
Spending no CP:
5/18 chance to succeed + (13/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go = ~47.8%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 6:
5/18 chance to succeed + (11/18)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~52.2%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 5+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (4/9)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~55.9%
Spending CP to re-roll on a 4+:
5/18 chance to succeed + (1/4)*(5/18) chance to succeed with 'Ere we go + 2/27+1/12 + 7/108 chance to succeed with CP re-roll = ~56.9%
So clearly re-rolling when you have at least one 4+ die grants you the best chance of success, but if you're worried about your CP than it is not unreasonable to use 'Ere We go when you have a 4, and choosing to only use CP for a 5+.
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
To be honest, i haven't had a wounded gun in a while. They usually just die cause they're the only worthwhile target for ranged anti-tank. But...why not i guess. I'm gona run like 6 sag big meks next game, so who am i to blame you.
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
Sorry I don't follow, you're only allowed re-roll once. So you have to choose between using 'Ere we go or spending 1 CP on the stratagem, you can't use both or repeat either option in matched play.
Dakkajet puts out about 3 dead meqs a turn with six supa shootas at full health. I just cant really get excited by that. That is slightly better against meqs than lootas. Do people playing dakkajets have good results? ?
I feel they work surprisingly well, until they don't, at their best accuracy they're pretty good at taking down elites, but once their accuracy is down due to damage it can get pretty sad. Only used it the one game though. I suspect it might own against a less shooty army.
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
Sorry I don't follow, you're only allowed re-roll once. So you have to choose between using 'Ere we go or spending 1 CP on the stratagem, you can't use both or repeat either option in matched play.
You roll 2 dice for the charge: A and B
A gets a 3 and B gets a 4
You keep the 4 (B) and use a CP to reroll A, getting a 4 (dang!)
You then decide to reroll die B (which was never rerolled, so you can do it) for another CP, getting a 6!
You made the charge, using 2 CP What would be the chances of a successful charge like that?
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
Sorry I don't follow, you're only allowed re-roll once. So you have to choose between using 'Ere we go or spending 1 CP on the stratagem, you can't use both or repeat either option in matched play.
You roll 2 dice for the charge: A and B
A gets a 3 and B gets a 4
You keep the 4 (B) and use a CP to reroll A, getting a 4 (dang!)
You then decide to reroll die B (which was never rerolled, so you can do it) for another CP, getting a 6!
You made the charge, using 2 CP What would be the chances of a successful charge like that?
Even if you could do two command rerolls in a phase (which you normally can't) that would not be allowed. You are basicly rerolling a reroll, since you get three different results from one roll. It's not legit.
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
Sorry I don't follow, you're only allowed re-roll once. So you have to choose between using 'Ere we go or spending 1 CP on the stratagem, you can't use both or repeat either option in matched play.
You roll 2 dice for the charge: A and B
A gets a 3 and B gets a 4
You keep the 4 (B) and use a CP to reroll A, getting a 4 (dang!)
You then decide to reroll die B (which was never rerolled, so you can do it) for another CP, getting a 6!
You made the charge, using 2 CP What would be the chances of a successful charge like that?
Not taking into account you cant use the stratagem twice like that, I'm 90% sure that you only get one chance to decide which dice you want to reroll.
What about when you re-roll on a 4+ (using 1 CP) and then if you get a 3 or a 4, you re-roll the first die (4) using another CP in hope of getting a 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 3) or a 5 or 6 (if the first re-roll gave you a 4)? That would be expensive but for a must have charge, that may be worth it!
Sorry I don't follow, you're only allowed re-roll once. So you have to choose between using 'Ere we go or spending 1 CP on the stratagem, you can't use both or repeat either option in matched play.
You roll 2 dice for the charge: A and B
A gets a 3 and B gets a 4
You keep the 4 (B) and use a CP to reroll A, getting a 4 (dang!)
You then decide to reroll die B (which was never rerolled, so you can do it) for another CP, getting a 6!
You made the charge, using 2 CP What would be the chances of a successful charge like that?
The problem is that you can't use the same stratagem multiple times during a phase. If you spend CP to re-roll the 3 and get a 4 you will not be allowed to spend CP on the same stratagem to re-roll the other die and consequently you will fail the charge.
A question about DakkaDakka! stratagem... first, do gretchin in large numbers get 33% more dakka instead of the usual 16%? (5s and 6s both become 6+ to spawn new dice?)
Also, do you have to use the stratagem before you roll, or could you roll your dice and THEN choose to use DakkaDakka?
Coh Magnussen wrote: A question about DakkaDakka! stratagem... first, do gretchin in large numbers get 33% more dakka instead of the usual 16%? (5s and 6s both become 6+ to spawn new dice?)
Also, do you have to use the stratagem before you roll, or could you roll your dice and THEN choose to use DakkaDakka?
Yes. Big blobs of Gretchin gets +33% dakka. You use the stratagem before rolling
BAN wrote: Cheapest best way to weight bases? I superglued coins into my stormboyz bases but they keep falling out anyone had any better ideas?
Well, for starters you could use weights that are not legal tender. And then you should use epoxy, preferably a slow-curing epoxy. And remember that cyanoacrylates have a short pot-life, especially after the bottle has been opened. Commercial companies always store super glues and pre pregs in the freezer.
Kind of a "hack" I have seen a friend do for his primaris jumpers, he used actual small rocks from a garden center for base decoration. It weighs them down enough so the won't fall over. Might work for storm boyz as well.
BAN wrote: Cheapest best way to weight bases? I superglued coins into my stormboyz bases but they keep falling out anyone had any better ideas?
I bought a box of a metal washers, it was like ~$10 AUD for 400 of them. I had to do some measurements in store to make sure I had the right size as they are labelled by internal diameter.
I just used super glue to stick mine in and had no troubles, if that doesn't work then other people have offered alternative adhesives which are probably worth a try too.
Anyway, they work real good. I get noticeably less wobbly model out of them and I would imagine they're either heavier than the coins you are using or cheaper than your heavier coins.
BAN wrote: Cheapest best way to weight bases? I superglued coins into my stormboyz bases but they keep falling out anyone had any better ideas?
I bought a box of a metal washers, it was like ~$10 AUD for 400 of them. I had to do some measurements in store to make sure I had the right size as they are labelled by internal diameter.
I just used super glue to stick mine in and had no troubles, if that doesn't work then other people have offered alternative adhesives which are probably worth a try too.
Anyway, they work real good. I get noticeably less wobbly model out of them and I would imagine they're either heavier than the coins you are using or cheaper than your heavier coins.
I can second washers. They're a perfect size and made to be durable and heavy. I have them on my stormboyz as well. Doesn't completely solve the issue but it helps.
BAN wrote:
Cheapest best way to weight bases? I superglued coins into my stormboyz bases but they keep falling out anyone had any better ideas?
I bought a box of a metal washers, it was like ~$10 AUD for 400 of them. I had to do some measurements in store to make sure I had the right size as they are labelled by internal diameter.
I just used super glue to stick mine in and had no troubles, if that doesn't work then other people have offered alternative adhesives which are probably worth a try too.
Anyway, they work real good. I get noticeably less wobbly model out of them and I would imagine they're either heavier than the coins you are using or cheaper than your heavier coins.
I can second washers. They're a perfect size and made to be durable and heavy. I have them on my stormboyz as well. Doesn't completely solve the issue but it helps.
I just glued 200 washers to bases last night. It worked well, though slotted bases are the worst.
The Naut is a bit underwhelming in shooting and the gretchin are a great screen, the Stormboyz shine for real, and the bikes are really depending from how you screen that first charge.
A played a game vs new Nurgle and is insane , -1 to hit on the best units and that goddam bell that brings drones back was a pain in the ...
However how is the general consensus about the “codex”?
Is it still valuable what it’s said on the first page about the units?
Are grot guns and canz that bad?
Can we field anything more than footslog?
The Naut is a bit underwhelming in shooting and the gretchin are a great screen, the Stormboyz shine for real, and the bikes are really depending from how you screen that first charge.
A played a game vs new Nurgle and is insane , -1 to hit on the best units and that goddam bell that brings drones back was a pain in the ...
However how is the general consensus about the “codex”?
Is it still valuable what it’s said on the first page about the units?
Are grot guns and canz that bad?
Can we field anything more than footslog?
The unit rankings on the first page should be taken with a big grain of salt. The KMK Mek Gun is very good, the rest are bad except the kannon which is mediocre. Kanz and Gorkanauts are mediocre on a good day, but Dreads are worse. Why are you bringing a big mek on a bike without KFF?
The Naut is a bit underwhelming in shooting and the gretchin are a great screen, the Stormboyz shine for real, and the bikes are really depending from how you screen that first charge.
A played a game vs new Nurgle and is insane , -1 to hit on the best units and that goddam bell that brings drones back was a pain in the ...
However how is the general consensus about the “codex”?
Is it still valuable what it’s said on the first page about the units?
Are grot guns and canz that bad?
Can we field anything more than footslog?
The unit rankings on the first page should be taken with a big grain of salt. The KMK Mek Gun is very good, the rest are bad except the kannon which is mediocre. Kanz and Gorkanauts are mediocre on a good day, but Dreads are worse. Why are you bringing a big mek on a bike without KFF?
Yeah, I tried the dread and it is a very bad thing to play...
The mek have the KFF, I wrongly posted the old list , there are 26 Stormboyz instead of 28. I was gonna buy a couple of gunz and a Bomma cause I love the model anyway, because I’m really trying to stay away from footslogging 90 boyz.
I got ‘Nids and home for that
So, over in the rumours thread, it has been postulated that it's December for Orks. But, the exciting thing is that it looks like a 'Kult of Speed' subfaction with new mini's is going to be part of the release.
Both frustrating at time to release, but quite exciting as it looks like it'll be a major Ork release. (If the rumours are true.)
Which does mean, until then, keep painting those boyz.
Rinkydink wrote: So, over in the rumours thread, it has been postulated that it's December for Orks. But, the exciting thing is that it looks like a 'Kult of Speed' subfaction with new mini's is going to be part of the release.
Both frustrating at time to release, but quite exciting as it looks like it'll be a major Ork release. (If the rumours are true.)
Which does mean, until then, keep painting those boyz.
I'm taking this rumor with copious amounts of salt, as in I don't really believe it at all. First we heard June, now it's December. I'm going to wait for an official statement before I start getting excited or frustrated, though I do sadly expect we'll get our codex n ear the last.
Rinkydink wrote: So, over in the rumours thread, it has been postulated that it's December for Orks. But, the exciting thing is that it looks like a 'Kult of Speed' subfaction with new mini's is going to be part of the release.
Both frustrating at time to release, but quite exciting as it looks like it'll be a major Ork release. (If the rumours are true.)
Which does mean, until then, keep painting those boyz.
I'm taking this rumor with copious amounts of salt, as in I don't really believe it at all. First we heard June, now it's December. I'm going to wait for an official statement before I start getting excited or frustrated, though I do sadly expect we'll get our codex n ear the last.
At the rate they were pushing out factions before the new Year I tend to think everyone will have a codex before July/August. I also doubt Orkz will get much love because we are the 40k Whipping boyz and giving us a good Kult of Speed would make us happy and competitive, something GW hates to see.
Rinkydink wrote: So, over in the rumours thread, it has been postulated that it's December for Orks. But, the exciting thing is that it looks like a 'Kult of Speed' subfaction with new mini's is going to be part of the release.
Both frustrating at time to release, but quite exciting as it looks like it'll be a major Ork release. (If the rumours are true.)
Which does mean, until then, keep painting those boyz.
But paint them what color?
What if clan rules come in and after painting a bunch of blood axes and goffs, I decide that bad moons faction bonus is better suited to my playstyle.
Rinkydink wrote: So, over in the rumours thread, it has been postulated that it's December for Orks. But, the exciting thing is that it looks like a 'Kult of Speed' subfaction with new mini's is going to be part of the release.
Both frustrating at time to release, but quite exciting as it looks like it'll be a major Ork release. (If the rumours are true.)
Which does mean, until then, keep painting those boyz.
But paint them what color?
What if clan rules come in and after painting a bunch of blood axes and goffs, I decide that bad moons faction bonus is better suited to my playstyle.
Just tell your opponent what rules you're using? It's never mattered what you paint your toys to look like, as long as you let your opponent know what's up.
Edit: for example, my boyz are Deathskull Freebooters. When the rules drop, they'll still be "Deathskull Freebooters" but I'll use whatever keywords best fit my playstyle.
pismakron wrote: The unit rankings on the first page should be taken with a big grain of salt. The KMK Mek Gun is very good, the rest are bad except the kannon which is mediocre. Kanz and Gorkanauts are mediocre on a good day, but Dreads are worse. Why are you bringing a big mek on a bike without KFF?
The ranking was done before CA was released.
I have never liked those kind of ratings as they are heavily biased, therefore I'm not heavily invested in keeping them up to date. I'll suffle a couple of them around when I find the time to do so, but feel free to do the work for me - I'll add it to the first post and credit whoever has done it.
I suggest putting a burna bomber to the blue bunch as it has an ability to explode that can be used as protection. And the blitza should probably go down to yellow as it's almost never as good as a burna in current meta.
I've recently been running double supa-skorcha big trakks with tankbustas inside them and they've really been the MVP's of my list the last few games I've used them. Having 24" range with 4D3 auto hitting S6 Ap-2 shots seem like an oversight on FW's part and I'm surprised it wasn't hit with the nerf bat in the recent CA. The 24" range synergizes well with the tankbustas and the 14" movement ensures any good targets (of which there are many) will get the burninating they deserve. The 24" range in particular is super good against any counter-assault unit looking to silence them, as the extra range means that you need to be out of LoS to not get a heaping help of hot gumbo before making it into assault with them.
Their 15 wounds help a lot in mitigating anti-tank responses, but ideally the rest of the list targets them as soon as possible because if you get to keep the big trakks alive up to mid-late game, they really get their work done.
They're also a decent hard counter to things that cause -1 to hit via chapter tactics, stratagems or things like flyers, though in the latter case its still usually better to ignore them.
Anyone else feel like that they're the main gem (alongside Zhadsnark of course) of the FW Xenos IA?
Grimskul wrote: I've recently been running double supa-skorcha big trakks with tankbustas inside them and they've really been the MVP's of my list the last few games I've used them. Having 24" range with 4D3 auto hitting S6 Ap-2 shots seem like an oversight on FW's part and I'm surprised it wasn't hit with the nerf bat in the recent CA. The 24" range synergizes well with the tankbustas and the 14" movement ensures any good targets (of which there are many) will get the burninating they deserve. The 24" range in particular is super good against any counter-assault unit looking to silence them, as the extra range means that you need to be out of LoS to not get a heaping help of hot gumbo before making it into assault with them.
Their 15 wounds help a lot in mitigating anti-tank responses, but ideally the rest of the list targets them as soon as possible because if you get to keep the big trakks alive up to mid-late game, they really get their work done.
They're also a decent hard counter to things that cause -1 to hit via chapter tactics, stratagems or things like flyers, though in the latter case its still usually better to ignore them.
Anyone else feel like that they're the main gem (alongside Zhadsnark of course) of the FW Xenos IA?
I do. Big trakks are awesome. I only tried them a few times but they did not disappoint. Beware of the "engage via pile in", though. I’m considering bringing 4 in my next 1500 pts game.
Big Trakks are absolute super stars. They are tougher and have more wounds that trukks, whilst getting more variety of wargear.
Keeping them cheap and using them as tankbusta carriers is the best tactic for them imo. Add in a Big Mek with a KFF and it becomes a real beat stick.
Supacannons are a very big gamble. I've had supacannons do nothing for the whole game, or kill a dreadnought in one shooting phase. It becomes a massive fire magnet though.
Did some changes to first post.
- Kommandoz to green as they are doing well in many competitive lists
- Deff dread to red since it's definitely not as good as kanz
- Bommers switched places
- Trukk in same category as battlewagon
- Buggies, wartracks and skorchas updated according to their CA buff
- Artillery listed separately.
Open questions:
- MANz still red?
- Blue and yellow is a wash. I'd appreciate a couple of people ranking the units in those two categories.
Jidmah wrote: Did some changes to first post.
- Kommandoz to green as they are doing well in many competitive lists
- Deff dread to red since it's definitely not as good as kanz
- Bommers switched places
- Trukk in same category as battlewagon
- Buggies, wartracks and skorchas updated according to their CA buff
- Artillery listed separately.
Open questions:
- MANz still red?
- Blue and yellow is a wash. I'd appreciate a couple of people ranking the units in those two categories.
I've fielded manz only 2 times. Both times footslogging, mixed in a list with a green tide. And in this scenario they are definitely red vs shooty armies. There's absolutely nothing you can do to protect them from anti-tank fire and they're the only real target to such gunz. The speed is actually not that bad because they're just an inch slower than boyz and 5+d6 doesn't feel that much faster than 4+d6.
As for the mech lists, we're going back to how underwhelming transports are. And that regular nobz are still better in that role cause of ammo runts.
Basically, the point drop didn't help at all cause their problems are not directly linked to their own cost. If trukks suddenly become 40 pts, meganobz would be decent as you would be able to field a ~170 pt manz missile trukk - almost like in 7-th. As is, i think they're still red. There's really no good way to utilise them at the moment. They could theoretically become better if the codex gives them deepstrike. Even for a cp. So that you could drop a 30+boy unit and a unit of manz. Than i'd field maybe 5 of them for the increased chance of actually reaching something and wrecking face alongside boyz and kommandoes. Right now, i'm very unimpressed with how they perform. Choppiness is still average point-for-point. No good delivery methods (with deepstrikes being once per turn, you're almost always better off deepstriking boyz) and they are still insanely vulnerable to heavy weapons that have no other targets in the ork army.
In short, manz don't synergise with the good units in our army.
Manz aren't red, I'd say yellow. Of course more boyz are better but all the units that are listed in yellow are not the best choice for their role as well. 4-5 meganobz with killsaws and 10-12 boyz in a wagon are a decent combo in a mechanized list. I play them quite often.
IMHO they're better than nobz, which aren't even yellow or blue, but light blue.
Manz, while being surely underwhelming, are definitely not as bad as the stompa, burnas, gitz, dread, etc...
Am I completely missng the entry or does Snikrot not have one? Personally I’d put him in light blue if you’re using kommandos or yellow if not, as he’s still good at taking out a few bits of a gunline and is a cheap HQ
Blackie wrote: Manz aren't red, I'd say yellow. Of course more boyz are better but all the units that are listed in yellow are not the best choice for their role as well. 4-5 meganobz with killsaws and 10-12 boyz in a wagon are a decent combo in a mechanized list. I play them quite often.
IMHO they're better than nobz, which aren't even yellow or blue, but light blue.
Manz, while being surely underwhelming, are definitely not as bad as the stompa, burnas, gitz, dread, etc...
Why do you think that MANZ are better than nobz? I have no experience with meganobz, but I would tend to agree that they are better than burnas, stompas, traktor kannons etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Multimoog wrote: Am I completely missng the entry or does Snikrot not have one? Personally I’d put him in light blue if you’re using kommandos or yellow if not, as he’s still good at taking out a few bits of a gunline and is a cheap HQ
There is a lot of stuff missing, especially from Forgeworld. It gets included if people express a sufficiently non-crazy opinion about it.
But maybe we should get that dude Reece to do the rankings, he is apparently a bit of an optimist.
pismakron wrote: I really don't see the point of big-trakks when a battle-wagon is just 14 points more.
Keep in mind that the one I'm mentioning has the supa-skorcha which the battlewagon doesn't have access to. And while the battlewagon is technically better as far as toughness and wounds go, it doesn't have the speed nor the synergy for weapons that the big trakk has with occupants like tankbustas.
Why do you think that MANZ are better than nobz? I have no experience with meganobz, but I would tend to agree that they are better than burnas, stompas, traktor kannons etc.
Because both units have the same purpose, to damage armored stuff and meganobz are simply better for that job. Compare 6 meganobz with killsaws and 10 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts:
Against T7 3+ save, meganobz deal an average of 16W, nobz only 10.
Against T8 2+ meganobz cause an average of 10W, nobz only 4.
Nobz also have free shootas but against armored targets they shouldn't cause any unsaved wounds, maybe one if you're lucky. A unit with mixed big choppas and pks can cause a little bit more damage but it becomes more expensive. Nobz are way better than meganobz in a footslogging list since ammo runts can absorb lots of anti tank but meganobz tank AP-nothing hits quite better and even against the anti tank they usually have a 4+ or 5+ anyway granted by the 2+ save. In a list without vehicles meganobz are basically useless since they're too vulnerable in the open and da jumping them usually doesn't worth the effort thanks to enemy screeners, but in armored lists they usually perform better than nobz, at least this is my experience with them. I only play meganobz with dual killsaws though.
So far I've played 4 meganobz and 12 boyz in a wagon, 5 and 10 boyz in a wagon and 6 in a wagon. I've also tried 2x5 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts in a wagon, 2x5(+5 runts) and 10 boyz in a wagon, 6+6 runts in a trukk and the 10+10 unit on foot. My experience is based on those combinations.
pismakron wrote: There is a lot of stuff missing, especially from Forgeworld. It gets included if people express a sufficiently non-crazy opinion about it.
Forgeworld is missing on purpose. I don't play any since in our area you are only allowed to use the rules if you have the actual FW model, so I'm not heavily investing in finding out what options are not terrible or have been deleted since 5th.
I'll add Snikrot
But maybe we should get that dude Reece to do the rankings, he is apparently a bit of an optimist.
It's not a pretty rainbow anymore if he puts everything in green.
Why do you think that MANZ are better than nobz? I have no experience with meganobz, but I would tend to agree that they are better than burnas, stompas, traktor kannons etc.
Because both units have the same purpose, to damage armored stuff and meganobz are simply better for that job. Compare 6 meganobz with killsaws and 10 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts:
Against T7 3+ save, meganobz deal an average of 16W, nobz only 10.
Against T8 2+ meganobz cause an average of 10W, nobz only 4.
Nobz also have free shootas but against armored targets they shouldn't cause any unsaved wounds, maybe one if you're lucky. A unit with mixed big choppas and pks can cause a little bit more damage but it becomes more expensive. Nobz are way better than meganobz in a footslogging list since ammo runts can absorb lots of anti tank but meganobz tank AP-nothing hits quite better and even against the anti tank they usually have a 4+ or 5+ anyway granted by the 2+ save. In a list without vehicles meganobz are basically useless since they're too vulnerable in the open and da jumping them usually doesn't worth the effort thanks to enemy screeners, but in armored lists they usually perform better than nobz, at least this is my experience with them. I only play meganobz with dual killsaws though.
So far I've played 4 meganobz and 12 boyz in a wagon, 5 and 10 boyz in a wagon and 6 in a wagon. I've also tried 2x5 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts in a wagon, 2x5(+5 runts) and 10 boyz in a wagon, 6+6 runts in a trukk and the 10+10 unit on foot. My experience is based on those combinations.
Eh, that's selective math at best.
If you compare 6 MANZ with killsaws to 8 nobz with killsaws (for simplicity), they cost exactly the same, except nobz can still shoot. 8 nobz with ammo runts will hit 8.88 times, wound 2.96 times and put .99 damage on a T7 vehicle, half that on T8. There are also tons of T8 3+ models out there, but only (rarely used) one with 2+, making killsaws seem better than they are.
Nobz also have more wounds and gretchin cause some additional damage to be lost to overkill. A multi-melta might kill 3 wounds of MANz, but only one ammo runt.
In addition, nobz can actually bring less than 1.3 killsaws per model which means ablative wound for 7 points a piece. For that reason, nobz can actually footslog alongside an ork horde, MANz cannot.
Not saying that MANz are terrible, but you math is definitely no representing the differences between the units properly.
If you compare 6 MANZ with killsaws to 8 nobz with killsaws (for simplicity), they cost exactly the same, except nobz can still shoot. 8 nobz with ammo runts will hit 8.88 times, wound 2.96 times and put .99 damage on a T7 vehicle, half that on T8. There are also tons of T8 3+ models out there, but only (rarely used) one with 2+, making killsaws seem better than they are.
Nobz also have more wounds and gretchin cause some additional damage to be lost to overkill. A multi-melta might kill 3 wounds of MANz, but only one ammo runt.
In addition, nobz can actually bring less than 1.3 killsaws per model which means ablative wound for 7 points a piece. For that reason, nobz can actually footslog alongside an ork horde, MANz cannot.
Not saying that MANz are terrible, but you math is definitely no representing the differences between the units properly.
I agree, but I was considering what is usually on the table. I haven't seen many nobz with killsaws, and definitely not a full unit of them. Because the box comes with only one bitz.
If you compare 8 nobz with killsaws and 6 meganobz with dual killsaws I agree about saying that nobz are better, they have the same number of attacks but more wounds. I was comparing meganobz to the typical unit of nobz which has big choppas and/or pks, maybe a few slugga & choppa dudes.
Why do you think that MANZ are better than nobz? I have no experience with meganobz, but I would tend to agree that they are better than burnas, stompas, traktor kannons etc.
Because both units have the same purpose, to damage armored stuff and meganobz are simply better for that job. Compare 6 meganobz with killsaws and 10 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts:
Against T7 3+ save, meganobz deal an average of 16W, nobz only 10.
Against T8 2+ meganobz cause an average of 10W, nobz only 4.
Nobz also have free shootas but against armored targets they shouldn't cause any unsaved wounds, maybe one if you're lucky. A unit with mixed big choppas and pks can cause a little bit more damage but it becomes more expensive. Nobz are way better than meganobz in a footslogging list since ammo runts can absorb lots of anti tank but meganobz tank AP-nothing hits quite better and even against the anti tank they usually have a 4+ or 5+ anyway granted by the 2+ save. In a list without vehicles meganobz are basically useless since they're too vulnerable in the open and da jumping them usually doesn't worth the effort thanks to enemy screeners, but in armored lists they usually perform better than nobz, at least this is my experience with them. I only play meganobz with dual killsaws though.
So far I've played 4 meganobz and 12 boyz in a wagon, 5 and 10 boyz in a wagon and 6 in a wagon. I've also tried 2x5 nobz with big choppas and ammo runts in a wagon, 2x5(+5 runts) and 10 boyz in a wagon, 6+6 runts in a trukk and the 10+10 unit on foot. My experience is based on those combinations.
Interesting, I've played Meganobz and found them to be underwhelming. I didn't have dual KS on all of them and it was pre CA changes though to be fair.
How do 8 x Nobz with Power Klaws and ammo runts stack up against vehicles? They clock in around the same points as 10 with big choppas and runt or the Meganobz (272 pts to the Meganobz 288).
Manz are not useless like those other units in red. Three meganobz with saws has been MVPs for me several times.
Their bad times: footslogging, facing cheap infantry screens
Their good times: trukking, da jumping in against unscreened and big targets like tanks or knigths, having durability in cover. Advancing and charging with warboss.
So, how about this:
Green = Best stuff in the codex, tournament material
Cyan = will pull their weight when fielded, even if there are better option
Blue = does what it is supposed to do, but not much more
Yellow = situational or not actually good at its primary role
Red = worthless, these units are not be able to do their job regularly
Which would lead me to the following changes:
MANz => yellow
Kanz => blue
Lootaz => blue
Trukk => yellow
Battlewagon => yellow
Most people seem to be satisfied with the performance of their lootaz and kanz (even if they are by no means great units), but there is very little positive resonance for our transports - which matches my disappointment with battlewagons and trukks.
Also, if you want to have a good laugh, go read page 2 of this thread.
Well, if you specify it this way, i guess manz are indeed yellow. They're not like the worst unit ever. But they are just only ok in mech lists while transported or vs purely mellee opponents with monsters. And even then, nobz and boyz are probably plain better. The main problem with manz is that they're only around 25% more durable than boyz vs anti-infantry fire while 100-300% less durable vs anti-tank. And this makes them very ineffective while combined with the good stuff in the index.
koooaei wrote: Well, if you specify it this way, i guess manz are indeed yellow. They're not like the worst unit ever. But they are just only ok in mech lists while transported or vs purely mellee opponents with monsters. And even then, nobz and boyz are probably plain better. The main problem with manz is that they're only around 25% more durable than boyz vs anti-infantry fire while 100-300% less durable vs anti-tank. And this makes them very ineffective while combined with the good stuff in the index.
A Strength 4 hit will kill 2.5 points of boyz or 1.17 points of regular meganob. They are quite resistant to AP0.
But I don't know that a cheaper Trukk will make them more viable. I would be reluctant to put them in a transport without something to absorb the damage from the explosion when the transport blows up. Regular nobz is better that way because they can take ammo runts and vanilla nobz as sacrificial wounds
You can always put in some burnas when they become buffed
Let's calculate man'z durability vs bolter and heavy bolter compared to boyz.
Bolter kills 1.55 pts of 42 ppmmanz or 1.78 pts of 48 ppmmanz.
Bolter kills 3.33 pts of 6 ppm boyz.
Ratio varies from 0.465 to 0.535. So, manz are around 100% tougher vs bolter fire.
Heavy bolter kills 6.22 pts of 42 ppmmanz or 7.11 pts of 48 ppmmanz.
Heavy bolter kills 8 pts of 6 ppm boyz
Ratio varies from 0.778 to 0.889. So, manz are around 17% tougher vs heavy bolter fire.
The majority of serious ranged anti-infantry is ap-1. Asscannons, heavy bolters. That's the reason i made an emphasis on something between 17% and 100% but way closer to 17%. So, around 25%. Simply because there's no use firing bolters at meganobz when you can fire them at boyz, kommandoes or even bikers, trukks, planes or mek gunz when they get close.
Now let's see a plazma and lazcannon.
Overcharged plazma kills 20,74 pts of 42 ppmmanz or 23.7 pts pf 48 ppmmanz.
Overcharged plazma kills 6.67 pts of boyz.
Ratio varies from 3.11 to 3.55, so manz are around 233% less durable vs plazma.
Lazcannon kills 15.55 pts of 42 ppmmanz or 17.78 pts of 48 ppmmanz. However, if we count in the 1/3 chance of not killing a meganob in one go and a 1/36 chance of not killing a meganob in two goes, numbers translate to 9.93 pts of 42 ppmmanz or 11.36 pts of 48 ppmmanz. The math is sloppy with d6, however.
Lazcannon kills 3.33 pts of 6 ppm boyz.
Ratio varies from 2.98 to 3.41. So, around 220% less durable than boyz.
And we're going back to the problem of target saturation. Manz are too squishy vs dedicated anti-tank in a situation where they're the ones most likely to actually recieve dedicated anti-tank fire.
I consider them absoutely underwhelming, I'd rate them yellow but I wouldn't be outraged if they were red.
I'd really like to make them worthy, especially kanz since I usually field vehicles and they wouldn't be the only armored multiwounds unit in the list. I've only had bad results with them so far, they never got their points back in my games.
And we're going back to the problem of target saturation. Manz are too squishy vs dedicated anti-tank in a situation where they're the ones most likely to actually recieve dedicated anti-tank fire.
In a list with vehicles they should get 0-1 turns of shooting. And nobz aren't much more resilient against shooting since they're worse against non ap or AP-1 shots (only 4+ and 2W) and ammo runts can soak one turn of anti tank usually. Meganobz should have a 4+ or 5+ anyway against many weapons, in fact they don't even need the KFF aura, while nobz usually want it. Of course if elites receive anti infantry firepower you should save some boyz but there are lists with an absurd amount of firepower that can afford focussing on footslogging nobz anyway. They just need to remove the gretchins and then using the anti tank on the nobz.
I'm not saying they're that good, but I don't see why nobz are rated way better than them, IMHO they're not, they just match better with our strongest built. I'd say nobz are 3/5 and meganobz 2/5 with this system but since I usually don't play footsloggers I'd rate them viceversa
Blackie wrote: Kanz and lootas blue? How do you run them?
I consider them absoutely underwhelming, I'd rate them yellow but I wouldn't be outraged if they were red.
I'd really like to make them worthy, especially kanz since I usually field vehicles and they wouldn't be the only armored multiwounds unit in the list. I've only had bad results with them so far, they never got their points back in my games.
I have run them in units of alongside other walkers, burna bommers and 0-2 battlewagons with nobz, sometimes with a KFF mek nearby to repair damaged kanz.
The are sufficiently hard to kill, they are dangerous to units without multi-damage weapons in combat, and more often than not get at least one rokkit through saves. I've also found them to be pretty reliable objective takers for forward objectives, as their footprint can prevent other units from coming within 3" and it takes some dedicated firepower to get them off it. Whenever I get one of the maelstrom objectives which requires me to keep the objective for two consecutive turns, they will be the ones getting it. Otherwise they sit on an objective somewhere in the middle of the board and shoot stuff from there. They might be worse if you're playing Eternal War and stuff like that doesn't matter. Most posts in this thread tend to be along the line of "not awesome. but ok".
So, they are in no way a great unit, but they are pretty reliable at what they are supposed to do - unlike the stuff in the yellow category, which either tends to do nothing of fall flat on its face without the opponent being involved.
Same logic for lootaz - they will die to a stiff breeze, but they blow a hole in certain types of units and will do this reliably.
The line between blue and yellow is not really clear. It's basically a list of all units that still kind of work, with a line drawn in the middle. Kanz and lootaz definitely both work better than BW and trukks, so I switched them.
In a list with vehicles they should get 0-1 turns of shooting. And nobz aren't much more resilient against shooting since they're worse against non ap or AP-1 shots (only 4+ and 2W) and ammo runts can soak one turn of anti tank usually. Meganobz should have a 4+ or 5+ anyway against many weapons, in fact they don't even need the KFF aura, while nobz usually want it. Of course if elites receive anti infantry firepower you should save some boyz but there are lists with an absurd amount of firepower that can afford focussing on footslogging nobz anyway. They just need to remove the gretchins and then using the anti tank on the nobz.
A couple of things wrong with this:
- Nobz can also add ablative wounds by adding choppa nobz. 3 PK and 4 choppa nobz are 21 wounds for 186, 4 MANz are 12 wounds for slightly more.
- When anti-infantry shooting is used to kill gretchin, you just take those shots on choppa nobz and save those with 4+ armor.
- Anti-infantry shooting usually has at least one more pressing target than nobz: The mob that was targeted by da jump last turn.
- Boyz are more dangerous than nobz for most armies, so they tend to get target priority over nobz - especially if they are closer to the enemy.
- 7 Nobz with ammo runts can take two quad lascannon predators buffed by Guilliman without losing a single nob, MANz will be wiped out by them. They are not very vulnerable to anti-tank at all.
- Same units shot at by assault cannon razorbacks and papa smurf take 6 razorbacks to kill the 4 MANz and about 4.4 to kill the nobz and their runts, so roughly a 36.36% increased chance to survive. For comparison: It takes 4.9 blue razorbacks to wipe out a unit of 30 boyz
- Nobz don't need a KFF, they have ammo runts to tank high damage shots. It helps, sure, but not more or less than on any other unit. I have fielded them successfully without, just walking up the field.
In reality some DA player who owns nothing but codex and half a dark imperium box will simply delete MANz with his hellblasters from 30" away by investing a single CP.
I'm not saying they're that good, but I don't see why nobz are rated way better than them, IMHO they're not, they just match better with our strongest built. I'd say nobz are 3/5 and meganobz 2/5 with this system but since I usually don't play footsloggers I'd rate them viceversa
Thing is, MANz don't work without transports, and transports are bad. If your opponent is low on anti-tank or doesn't prioritize them, they can get things done, but otherwise they won't. This is the very definition of situational, which makes them yellow.
Nobz work both footslogging and in transports, as foot sloggers they are only slightly less durable than boyz (~10%), and boyz are a great unit. Of the three flavors of nobz, regular nobz are the ones most likely to reach combat, without needing help from any other unit.
Thanks for the post, I understand your points. I'm still not sold on nobz because it is true that you can add some stock dude in the mob but that means that the unit won't cause much damage if it reaches combat.
And T4 4+ save is actually quite vulnerable to anti infantry shooting, nobz can't really efficiently tank those kind of hits.
3 pks and 4 big choppas are not that killy against armored stuff, even if the entire units reaches combat. It may be anecdotal but in my games embarked nobz never wrecked anything valuable while meganobz did. Footsloggers usually resisted decently to the enemy firepower but if they footslog they're also easy to avoid and armored stuff usually prefer fighting the boyz than nobz unless they manage to charge first.
Thing is I like meganobz because they can actually hurt high T and high saves in close combat, while nobz usually don't. But I wouldn't rate the meganobz more than 2/5 anyway generally speaking, I just think that nobz are a bit overrated.
Kanz are ok to absorb firepower but they're too expensive for the little damage they cause. The WS5+ is really nasty and they'll get only a few hits by shooting since you'll never field tons of them and they don't fire many shots. The waaagh banner helps a lot though and I used it very often in combinations with kanz.
Hah, go tell a marine player that 4 S5 attacks that hit on 3+ "won't cause much damage"
Of course, a unit with 3 PKs will not one-shot a rhino or something similar (next to nothing in the game does), but they will crush a unit of marines and take a big chunk out of a dread. They also tend to be around next turn and do it again.
There are few anti-infantry weapons in the game that are better than twin assault cannon with full rerolls to wound and to hit - and it kills two nobz per gun or six gretchin. You would need three (half an ultramarine tournament list) to have decent chance of killing one of the three PKs. They might as well just gun down their average of 19 boyz and watch the unit implode to morale.
I really think the color coded list has a bias for green tide style lists. I say this because I see boyz are rated top tier green but struggle in mechanized lists, biker lists and walker lists. Boyz are, in fact, good only in a boyz spam list. As an example, I feel stormboyz fit in a green tide list and would be above and beyond a superior choice to boyz in bike and mechanized lists yet they are rated tournament green like boyz. I feel the color coded system should reflect this lack of flexibility.
I think a grading system for list types needs to be small subsection to the color coded system above or people new to orkz might not understand why trukkboyz let them down in trukk lists soo often compared to trukkz with tankbustas.
My 2 cents, meganobz should be one tier higher. The painboy is strictly worse then Mad Dok, and should not share the same color. Lootas should be one tier higher, their range allows them to excel from safety in many lists without having to think about your army's target saturation. Boyz should not be green unless you are applying a handicap because they are soo essential in our best list. I think warbikers should be one tier lower because they are pretty terrible even in their own list. I think the Big Mek should be one tier lower because most things he would repair are bad and most things his KFF would be efficient for is also meh. I do not feel kommandos and stormboyz belong in the same tier. I feel Ghazzy is clearly a better choice then a warboss.
Take none or all of my opinions with salt, I do not consider myself a top tier ork.
The problem is that no unit in the index is mathematically efficient apart from full size boys squads, tankbustas, stormboyz, KMKs, . Battlewagons themselves are not efficient which dampens any other transport strategy.
Weirdboys are limited to 1 jump per turn due to psychic focus.
In other words op is not so much biased as the index is limiting. Look back in the thread and you will find pages and pages of grousing about how limited the viable strategies in the dex are. Frankly mob rule and green tide (which is an actual rule from the designers) are contributing to this.
People in this thread keep churning old ground. Somebody brings up a unit they like, be it warbikers or whatever, then somebody does the math and realizes they are not viable. Then everyone shouts them down until someone starts complaining about greentide being gak to play again. Rinse, repeat.
The real problem is not us, its the index being bound by terrible internal balance.
Boys being limited to greentide is again another symptom of the designers. They made trucks and battlewagons obscenely expensive. And if you want to be blunt that and greentide and mob rule are your problems right there.
Serious reductions in points costs on transports are step 1 to any kind of change on green tide being the only viable method of using boys, and the predominant strategy in the dex. Step 2 is heavy armor and special close combat weapons (eg burnas) weapons so they are viable in smaller units.
Aside from greentide I see one other efficient way of using boys which is to mob up 2 units for a unit of 40 jumping a turn with kommandos, which is what I'll be doing. I have no intentions of painting 150 boys to daisy chain them up painfully through unwieldy buff strings 5" a turn up the board and pulling casualties by the armfull.
Yeah, the common wisdom is that Orks need to have as much in combat 1st turn as possible, so kommandos, stormboyz and jumping 40 boyz turn 1 is basically how every suggestion for Ork lists go. Ideally you’ll have 70-100 models, if not actually in CC turn 1, then at least in their deployment zone. That said, once that’s accomplished - say you’re conservative and have 40 boyz, 30 kommandos and 30 stormboyz, all of those stock cost 750pts. In a 1000pt game that is really worrying to your opponent (unless they’re playing orks too ) and in 2000 you still have more than half your points to play with.
More boyz isn’t a bad idea but you could probably get away with another 300-360pts of boyz and have room for fun stuff like a trukk of nobz or bikers or kans or whatever. Things that need to be dealt with before they get to the rest of their army, or that would be tough to shoot off objectives. Yes, there’s hard counters for anything orks have but you can take enough basic troops to throw off an opponent and still have fun with it.
Since it seems like we have exhausted the possible tactics with the index, does anyone want to start a new thread that has proposed changes to units to make them more viable? It might turn into a good amount of wish-listing, but who knows maybe GW could glance at it and get a few good ideas.
DrGiggles wrote: Since it seems like we have exhausted the possible tactics with the index, does anyone want to start a new thread that has proposed changes to units to make them more viable? It might turn into a good amount of wish-listing, but who knows maybe GW could glance at it and get a few good ideas.
Already been workin on it with da ladz. Main consensus seems to be a generic army-wide rule where Orks ignore negative modifiers to shooting from enemy sources and points cuts across the board in general, with tweaking of weapons like some of the mek gunz (traktor kannonz especially).
Orks aren’t far off from a new codex.
To the person above who said mad doc is always better then a painboy. Yes in the beginning he was but the change to PKs made painboys more efficient. It also made meganobs and nobs more efficient (and remember don’t forget to take your ablative wound ammo runts).
With thousand sounds due this weekend I am sure we will hear about the next wave of codexs due soon. Keep your fingers crossed.
I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.
I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.
SemperMortis wrote: I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.
I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.
May I ask where you are getting them for $5 each? I'm assuming you mean the metal ones?
SemperMortis wrote: I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.
I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.
The most competitive build would be on the shelf. Warbikers and Deffkoptas will fold like wet paper if your opponent brings plasma or autocannons, and I bet that you will see a lot of those. But hopefully the codex will change things, but you know GW, they might just as well screw it up.
Three outrider detachments:
Zhadsnark, 122 points
12 X MSU bikers with PK, 1128 points
2 x trukk with big shoota, 2 x 11 boyz including pk nobz, weirdboy, warboss with relic-choppa, 446 points
4 Deffkoptas with KMB, 256 points
1952 points, 6CP, if I have calculated correctly (which I probably have not)
SemperMortis wrote: I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.
I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.
For warbikers I guess you should get the PK if you every want them in combat. Without you have next no chance to kill anything at all in combat - if that doesn't bother you, just leave the nob with a choppa. I don't really see reason to ever buy a BC on a minimum warbike unit, it doesn't have an impact on its abilities at all, while the PK at least allows you to kill elite infantry.
However, 3 bikers with a PK nob are 94 points for 7 T5 wounds. A warboss with PK on a bike is 99 for 7 T6 wounds. Might as well have all your nobz count as warbosses and mess around with character targeting and free attack squigs.
Nobz in trukks should all be with ammo runts and shootas of course. For melee weapons I have found two configurations to work well over multiple games:
1) 3PK, rest choppas are sufficiently strong to damage vehicles and big monsters and threaten things like daemon princes, terminators or dreads.
2) 5xBC 1xChoppa - slightly better at killing vehicles than the above configuration, but weaker against targets with good saves. It's highly unlikely to lose ZERO nobz before combat, so you might as well save the points for the sixth one.
I don't really think there is a good way to run koptas, but if you want to run them anyways, go for rokkits.
You already have a ton of S5 shooting from your bikes and more is not going to do miracles, so big shootas are out and one KMB is only 3 points less than one rokkit. If you're paying 55 points for a fast shooting platform, might as well give it some firepower that sometimes does something.
Don't pay 15 points for two killsaw attacks, especially since spinning blades is already decent close combat weapon against a lot of things.
I had more success fielding them in single model units, but YMMV.
In any case, if you're already planning on bringing trukks, bring tank bustas. The only bad thing about them is needing a transport, and if you're already bringing transports, bring the best shooting unit in the army along.
pismakron wrote: I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious
I am now seriously considering this, just for hilarity sake .
As for the person asking how I am getting $5 for Deff Koptas, eBay my friend, that and the trade forum here. The Plastic AoBR ones are cheap as hell, the old metal ones are crap anyway and I am sure as hell not spending that kind of money on that PoS
One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers
Multimoog wrote: One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers
Black reach koptas are AMAZING for converting; heres my kff mek
Though, all the talk of warboss bikers has me thinking. I like the fluffiness of this list, while it might not be super competitive (though maybe it could be?). It seems like it’d be tough in a casual game at the very least. The idea of a super-elite gang of warboss bikers and a mek boss whose bodyguards are a mob of stormboyz and a trukk of nobz... if nothing else the sight of it barreling down across the board first turn would be cool as hell. I have a bunch of nob bikers for proxying as warbosses (and one actual bike warboss) which is a really fun idea.
Then the rest of the army has 100 boyz for mobbing up, 30 Kommandos, a weirdboy for jumping and a handful of KMKs. If nothing else it’s give an opponent a headache deciding on priority
Warboss on Warbike: Might is Right; power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: attack squig 93
6 Nobz: 4× shoota; 2× kombi-weapon with skorcha; killsaw; 3× power klaw; cybork body; + 1 Boss Nob (shoota; power klaw; Ammo Runt); 4× Ammo Runt 249
15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120
Trukk 82
Big Mek on Warbike: kustom force field 101
Warboss: shoota; power klaw; attack squig 68
Weirdboy 62
30 Boyz: Boss Nob (big choppa) 187
21 Boyz: Boss Nob 126
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz 60
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
Multimoog wrote: One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers
I agree with this, especially if you have 12 koptas which are never gonna be part of the same list in a standard game anyway. 6 koptas plus 6 converted buggies looks quite better, and IMHO it's a safe conversion even before the release of the codex, because koptas are now extremely expensive and even with a price cut (no way they're gonna be cheaper than 60 pts) and some new abilities I think 6 of them would still be a lot and hard to include a 2000 points list.
Though, all the talk of warboss bikers has me thinking. I like the fluffiness of this list, while it might not be super competitive (though maybe it could be?). It seems like it’d be tough in a casual game at the very least. The idea of a super-elite gang of warboss bikers and a mek boss whose bodyguards are a mob of stormboyz and a trukk of nobz... if nothing else the sight of it barreling down across the board first turn would be cool as hell. I have a bunch of nob bikers for proxying as warbosses (and one actual bike warboss) which is a really fun idea.
Then the rest of the army has 100 boyz for mobbing up, 30 Kommandos, a weirdboy for jumping and a handful of KMKs. If nothing else it’s give an opponent a headache deciding on priority
Warboss on Warbike: Might is Right; power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: attack squig 93
6 Nobz: 4× shoota; 2× kombi-weapon with skorcha; killsaw; 3× power klaw; cybork body; + 1 Boss Nob (shoota; power klaw; Ammo Runt); 4× Ammo Runt 249
15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120
Trukk 82
Big Mek on Warbike: kustom force field 101
Warboss: shoota; power klaw; attack squig 68
Weirdboy 62
30 Boyz: Boss Nob (big choppa) 187
21 Boyz: Boss Nob 126
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz 60
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
That lone trukk is going to die turn 1 no matter what though, I'd suggest to cut the trukk and add as many stock nobz plus ammo runts you can take. In fact 4 nobz with ammo runts are basically the same cost of the transport and you'll lose speed (but that trukk is going to die very soon so you're probably not going to lose that either) but gain a couple of wounds and a unit that is way more resilient to anti tank since 10 ammo runts can soak an insane amount of lascannons and similar weapons while the trukk can't.
pismakron wrote: I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious
12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.
pismakron wrote: I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious
12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.
That is very devilish.... haha, it could actually work.
What about a horde of runtherdz on foot with Ghaz, Badrukk and other characters? All supported by burna-suicide-bommers? Could it work?
I don't see a reason to field runtherds though. Even with grot prodder, their meele is kind of pathetic for 26 points. I'd rather bring a bag of AOBR warbosses.
Anyways:
Spoiler:
[90 PL, 1499pts] ++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Orks) ++ Burna-bommer: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Orks) ++ Boss Snikrot: Might is Right, Warlord
Boss Zagstruk Ghazghkull Thraka Kaptin Badrukk Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Mad Dok Grotsnik
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Orks) ++ Big Mek: Choppa, Shokk Attack Gun
Big Mek: Choppa, Kustom Force Field
Warboss on Warbike: Attack Squig, 'eadwhompa's killchoppa, Shoota
Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Zhadsnark Da Ripper Nob with Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota
Look, I just shoved all the characters and burna bommers I own into a list an it came out at 1500 points
Da Council of da Waaagh! is back.
I also realized that Snikrot is the only character that would ever care about +1 strength.
pismakron wrote: I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious
12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.
That is very devilish.... haha, it could actually work.
What about a horde of runtherdz on foot with Ghaz, Badrukk and other characters? All supported by burna-suicide-bommers? Could it work?
I hope i'll be able to tell you how well it goes because i've got a game coming up. And my list is gona include 6 burna bombers, badrukk, 5 sag big meks, 3 lil meks and 3*15 kommandoes. It's obviously gona fail miserably vs any mellee army and it's gona be close to impossible to protect against deepstrikers but i've asked the foe to bring a gunline without deepstrike. It's allready an odd list and i want to see if it's even playable in ideal circumstances. The thing that makes me sad is that sm can easilly field a better version of it with beamer techmarines that are for some reason cheaper than big meks with their 2+ bs and 2+ armor. Yeah, beamer is only d3 shots but they're hitting on 2s. And s8 all the time.However, our planes are more explodey, so that is definitely more fun.
What's the purpose of the meks in your list, Koooaei? They don't have anything to repair since they flyers are way faster. If you need screeners or objective holders just take gretchin instead, approx the same cost but unlock more CPs. They can be targeted but they also have more wounds and can be placed in some spots in where nothing can see them.
Blackie wrote: What's the purpose of the meks in your list, Koooaei? They don't have anything to repair since they flyers are way faster. If you need screeners or objective holders just take gretchin instead, approx the same cost but unlock more CPs. They can be targeted but they also have more wounds and can be placed in some spots in where nothing can see them.
They're the cheapest characters and can have runts. Also, they have shooty options. By no means are SAG, rokkits and kmb good options. But that's all we got and in this context it's better than mellee. And i actually want the opponent to shoot flyers. On the other hand, why not try out a ton of grots and flyers. That's a test for another time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: 2 out of 3 best ork lists in LVO included 80+ grots.
#ReeceWasRight #DakkaDakkaWasLeft
yeah...what's the best placing ork out there? 55-th...yeah, i guess grots are THAT amazing.
Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
Eonfuzz wrote: I'm playing with a few friends and getting snarky comments whenever I use Zhadsnark, things like 'FW powercreep'.
I personally feel like he's one of our only characters that isn't overpriced - but do you feel like he's strong enough to warrant a ban?
From what I recall, he was the default choice over a warboss on bike until chapter approved dropped the cost of power klaws. Back then the point cost difference would of made him strictly better but now he just looks like you pay extra to get extra. I do not think running 1 character will break your meta. I think it's unfair of your friends to make comments like that, if you're playing competitively than they should take it as a challenge. It's in the rules and you're both playing the same game. If you're playing for fun and flavour then they won't be getting as much enjoyment by focusing on stats over feel.
OK ladz, so I'm looking for a new modelling project and considering a small force of freebooter pirates using converted kharadron airships, doesn't need to be super hard but would be nice if it was semi-competitive.
Ideally I want to put everything in a transport, was thinking warboss, big mek, 10 nobz, 5 flash gitz in a battlewagon (the large ship), plus 3 x 10 Boyz in chinorks (the medium ships) and maybe a couple of the small ships to use as skorchas.
I just think the units will be too small, could mob the boyz up when they get out I guess.
Basically, what's the best way to run mechanized orks?
You can try running nobz with ammo runts. This way you could have a unit of 5-6 nobz with 5-6 ammo runts. They're a bit harder to remove than boyz in such lists because they won't suffer morale losses.
As for the warboss, try Ghaz. However, keep in mind that it's pretty common to loose a battlewagon on turn one, so you'd better have multiple of those with evenly spread points. Say, Ghaz and a bunch of boyz and kommandoes inside one wagon and nobz, meganobz, flash gitz inside another one.
It's sad but currently melle lists with transports are not really all that great. The best mech you can get is spam forgeworld big trakks with supaskorchas and probably add something shooty like tankbustas or gits inside.
GreenTidePackers wrote: Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
I am guessing that those lists did well by filling the board with cheap/fearless infantry and then relying on them to hold objectives in his zone while being able to use the rest of his army to push for another objective, because seriously...who is going to be able to remove 80+ grots in the backfield while the boyz are pushing forward. It is a good tactic but it relies very very heavily on slow play because if they go to far past turn 3 the losses will be so heavy that eventually the boyz run away or the grots lose in CC and flee. effectively making a slow play list is why I dislike horde.
GreenTidePackers wrote: Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
I am guessing that those lists did well by filling the board with cheap/fearless infantry and then relying on them to hold objectives in his zone while being able to use the rest of his army to push for another objective, because seriously...who is going to be able to remove 80+ grots in the backfield while the boyz are pushing forward. It is a good tactic but it relies very very heavily on slow play because if they go to far past turn 3 the losses will be so heavy that eventually the boyz run away or the grots lose in CC and flee. effectively making a slow play list is why I dislike horde.
Ok thanks, I guess I could go big trakks with gitz and nobz, plus some skorchas, and try and BBQ everything!
I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Managed a win today, facing a list that was expecting to be fighting death guard, and it showed, it was only having a couple of hurricane bolsters to take down zombies that meant he had anything to face boyz.
Won by playing the mission, seems to be critical, if you can ignore the enemy do so, unless you can obliterate them, taking a unit to half size is essentially pointless and seems to my (very) humble warbles that even shooting at fliers is a total waste of time.
List isn't boyz heavy (I've only got 60 of them, so two units) and only 30 grots, because thats all I have - but the enemy either focuses on them and the other stuff can do its job, or focusses on everything else and finds the boyz on objectives when it matters with too many to shift in a turn.
so far 50-50 win/loss, either being utterly wiped out by lists built to take on a horde, or a win again lists built to fight marines.
Suggest (and something I'm doing) if you face a fair few lists that seem suspiciously well prepared to fight boyz, try having a kan wall or similar that can turn up occasionally to try to keep them honest.
Not using weirdboyz here (because I don't have one), and only running a patrol detachment at 1,500 (because I've only got one HQ) and 1k5 is just about every work I've got painted.
But it seems if you force the enemy to play your game, and don't make it too clear what that is they boyz can surprise people.
i.e. don't pile forwards to get into combat unless you'll get there T1, hang back, hide a bit, make them come to you so on your turn you can get into CC, make them come out of their castle, win on objectives.
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
[user]
That’s a shame the battle went like it did. The kamikaze tactic works best on enemies that can’t effectively move out of the way, and none of the list is really suited for dealing with deep strike. Mek guns might be a better firebase than SAGs because they provide their own screening due to unit separation rules, and TBH I don’t know if SAG meks have a place in any list at all.
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
Not to be a fun killer, but why did you expect SAG meks not to be garbage? They land like a single shot on average each and are horrendous on paper.
Aussie Cancon report here boys:
list is in this thread somewhere back a few pages. Basically its, 90 boyz, 30 stormz, Dakkajet, 6 KMK, 4 Weirdboyz, 13 Tankbustas, Painboy, Warboss, Warboss on Bike, and BigMek KFF.
ITC champion missions. I always took Recon (a unit in each quad), sometimes took Behind Enemy Lines, and almost always took Headhunter (depending on the list).
Here's the rundown:
Spoiler:
Round 1) Vs Genestealer Cult w/ some Nids. Plenty of guarantee charged genestealers in it, turned off my KMK flank for the whole game. I left a set of boyz behind and cleaned it up but it took a while. He bombed his character deep in my lines and my warboss took care of that. Rest of the boyz ran up the field and cleaned house. He severely underestimated boyz and met me mid field, his mistake and an easy win. Dakkajet was good here, got me clean recon (which i could not otherwise get since he was so fast) and killed most every screen he shot at thanks to T3. Buy MVP clearly went to boyz this game, they just decimated the midfield, i barely took casualties, every time i interupted a charge i killed a unit. Genestealers took a long time to get through the KMKs and ultimately died for it anyway. Win: 27 to 17.
Round 2) Vs Ultramarines: Fireraptor and mortars + gill and tank line. Da Jumped my tankbustas in a building, aimed at his fire raptor and started rolling. He informed me -2 to hit, so my bad. Basically game over right? Not very much line of sight on this table either, so I was taking about 40 wounds a turn. We clashed in the middle and I smote Gil to death, but after the KMKs were dead I was doing no damage and got tabled on turn 4. Weirdboyz smote the fireraptor and gil this game, MVPs. Loss: 18 to 34.
Round 3) Vs Spacewolves: a landraider, three dreadnauts, some wolf riders, some bikes, and some devos. Da Jumped the tankbustas in this time in a nice forward position that could hit all the hard stuff, and with a few extra KMK shots took the landraider off the board turn 1. The bikes fell quickly to stormboyz and his characters did not have enough swings to stop the horde. After he saw the boyz in combat he fled and castled in the back corner out of LOS from KMKs and it was a bit of a nightmare catching up. But I controlled the board. I chose kingslayer in this mission (one of the dreadnauts) which was a huge mistake, he castled that character and it wouldave been a clean win otherwise. KMKs were the hero's in this fight as they were outshooting his army. Win: 26 to 21.
Round 4) Vs Imperial Guard: Three super heavies and some support tanks with chaff. Pretty much nightmare scenario for me, enough chaff to take a few turns to get through, and after his shooting turn 2 boyz started having to make morale checks (which if you're playing horde you know that is game over). MVP here was warboss on the bike, he survived a charge from a stormhammer and swung back for 18 wounds over two rounds, that was the only tank I killed. MVP here again was the Dakkajet OR the bigmek KFF, KFF just absorbed so much fire over the KMKs and the Dakkajet was the only idiot in my army that could score me unit kills to keep up in the primary mission, and of course he was helping with Recon. I actually surrounded my stormboyz with the KFF for turn 1 expecting them to feel the shots, and they did, but with painboy support they only lost 11 wounds turn one. However once that protection started breaking up from movement i was suffering almost 70 wounds a turn. List building learning here (I feel like I may need to lean toward mobile durability more like big mek and painboy on bikes). Loss: 17 to 30.
Round 5) Vs the Brothers and horrors. Magnus and Morty just did their thing. Morty got in a good position among my characters and just destroyed them, but Magnus went for the KMKs. I basically just ignored them and spread out over the field. I got some free points thanks the the Gangbustas secondary, he brought some unit that self harms to cast spells (that has three wounds per model of 5) and loaded me up with points. Then I just went around killing horrors while he killed my backline. I had more space and controlled my objectives for longer (since I have so many stupid grots down the back) that the win was mine. MVP KMK grots, just wasting peoples time, 5 guys at a time. Win: 35 to 19.
Round 6) Vs a Tyranid carnifex gunline. This guy was prepared for hordes, had two squads of gaunts screening and 12 carnifexes with either 24 shots, 12 shots, or none. Tankbustas did literal nothing. He dropped lictors in the backfieild that were super annoying and got him recon + behind enemy lines easily, so basically all i could do was hope to win on primary. But this scenario only had one objective per side, and he just castled carifexes over his, and when I got close he just 3d6 charged all over the place and did work. This game did not feel close, and this was end of day 2 so I basically conceded on turn 4 but I did reasonably on points still. MVP were the KMKs here, as they were the only thing that could battle the shooty carnifexes. It might have been correct to castle vs this army? But if he charged across the field he wouldave won anyway, hard list and something I was not prepared for. Loss: 19 to 35.
Round 7) Vs Magnus and marine support, sort of thousand son-esq, he had some crazy dreadnaut things that dealt mortal wounds on hit, he had three of em in his backline. Had two squads of terminators that he deepstriked and turn 1 charged. I actually thought the game was easily over (my way) after that move because boyz destroy terminators. Anyway he cleans away half a unit with magnus and his termies. My turn 1 i jump tankbustas and split fire the bomb squigs into one of the dreadnauts and the rokkits into another (using the coveted DDD stratagem!). With some extra KMK shots I kill all three of his heavy support in the turn, rolled like fire. Sent stormboyz off to contest with his marines on his objective and they just deleted whatever they touched. I learned a few things about gumming up Magnus previously, so the grots were ESPECIALLY annoying this game. He had nothing left on the board but Magnus by turn 3, but damnit that guy still gets kills and I had no more units to kill, so the points were really close! He was actually winning on the primary even though I controlled all objectives and the entire board! I actually just can't kill Magnus so weirdly enough if the game went on for another turn he would've won (just by the way ITC missions work). MVP KMK grotts, and maybe stormboyz, they just rekt the back field. Win: 23 to 22.
Round 8) Vs Sisters of Battle with an Inquisitor supreme detachment that he threw into a drop pod. His army was full of flamers, meltas, celestine, and some seraphim. First time all day Da Jump failed turn 1 even with a reroll (how does +3 fail??), and then celestine was in my back line. He was using his 4+ "say no to a spell" stratagem and just getting it done every turn! So tankbustahs were shooting at celestine to no effect, and she was gumming up KMK. She was basically dealing no damage though, so just annoying. He threw two assassins in the middle of the field and just ran them at characters, I expected them to die at some point and did not commit boyz to the assassins (whcih i think was a mistake) and thus I did not have a few weirdboyz smiting or warboss or painboy for basically the whole game. By turn 4 I was starting to pull ahead in the primary, as celestine was dead and the rokkit boyz were nuking rhinos, and the dakkajet was slaying girls thanks to T3 all game, he wasted a lot of shots into it and he survived all game, total MVP. Stormboyz get an honorable mention this game, hiding in a building and overcharging their rokkits to land inside a clump of inquisitors, they got a few kills but didn't survive the flamers. So in the end not a lot died this game, his inquisitors were assasinating my weirdboyz and my rokkit boyz didnt get to play until late game. my KMKs were doing nothing great so his vehicles were alive for ages. But he was not really getting a lot done either. We didn't finish this game, ended turn 4. I feel like I would've pulled ahead the next two turns on primary, and I had still not maxed headhunter. Loss: 18 to 21.
Overall: 4/4. I think if I was a better player I could have won Round 6 and Round 8.
Takeaways: Even in losses, I got heaps of points. I was often ahead by turn 3 but then the causalities start taking their tole and points start to fall off. However some games I totally charge up late game (particularly vs sisters) as i had the time to get into position with everything properly. I think there is a reasonable case with my army to pull opposing castles into midfield via standing out of their range. But only when I feel the KMKs pose a serious enough threat (i.e. deploy KMKs in the FRONT line and my army behind them. KMKs with a KFF (plus repairs) take forever to die, and meanwhile I should be keeping boyz OUT of target priority where possible. This is a strategy I did not use that weekend and I think it would have worked vs my round 1, 3, 6, and 8 opponents. Running forward sometimes gives your opponent premium damage output that really helps them score, and once you reach a critical mass of wounds orks start to look very weak. Important note, I did not vs any dark reapers (they were all on the top tables) but I spoke to a few people and it was a general consensus that a horde ork army would likely smash those lists (nothing good to shoot at with the reapers, and the shining spear assault will get swarmed after they charge). But I have no proof of that, unfortunately.
Overall MVPs: Stormboyz, although they did not win MVP in my heart most games, they were often runners up. They threaten backlines too well, and just get the job done when you ask them to. Honourable mentions, Dakkajets and Weirdboyz (surprise). The Dakkajet comes with a caveat though, he's ONLY good if youre not trying to table your opponent and you are playing ITC. He is the only reason I got reliable recon every game. Weirdboyz are just super good, reliable smites, perils with a painboy, just damage output. They really shined when my tankbustas were at their worst (like vs no vehicle armies). Side note: only in the one game (round 2) that I got tabled did all my 6 KMK die.
Changes: I think moving forward I would bring 8 tankbustas max, as I was often overkilling the tank that I shot with 13 (plus two bomb squigs). Da Jump strategy is damn excellent and I will always be doing it. I think bringing another squad of 30 stormboyz for redundancy and morale assistance for my backline assault is a necessity, I would sacrifice a squad of walking boyz for that (and the points I gain for bringing less tank bustas), 60 boyz on the ground is enough. Other considerations are to double my KMK line, but I would wait for the codex before buying more, as they are actually better at shooting then almost anything. They are a nightmare to shoot, 5++, wounds don't roll over, and are 42 points each! The damage output point for point is excellent, we all know this by now. If I was to bring a 12 KMK army, I would sacrifice all my walking boyz, turn them into gretchin, and have 2 (or even 3) squads of stormboyz.
This is a big write up (for me) with heaps of spelling errors and forgotten unit names, forgive me for not reading over it and fixing stuff.
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
Not to be a fun killer, but why did you expect SAG meks not to be garbage? They land like a single shot on average each and are horrendous on paper.
Well, they kinda weren't garbage. In fact, 5 of them blew like 6-7 wounds off a leman russ tank (the first shot did 5 wounds, the rest were much less effective). I mostly failed with the planes. See, that's the first time i've used that many planes and i failed to position them correctly. I could have blocked fallback moves with them but i didn't. It's quite hard to maneuvre 6 planes that can't land and can only turn 90 degrees and have a minimum movement of 20 AND actually need positioning. We can't just outshoot the opponent point-for-point. Also, this list needs more meks to bauble wrap the big mks from deepstrikes and opponent's opportunistic advances. Also, i might want to exchange some kommandoes for biker warbosses. This list surely needs ways of tying up shooty vehicles.
It would have worked wonderfully vs an infantry gunline, though. Burna bombers fail to do that much vs vehicles, however. Shooting from 800 pts worth of burna bombers inflicted like 5 wounds to a leman russ. It's pretty awful.
The idea was to use big meks as a source of character long ranged antitank shooting. Pretty much the only unit we have for the job. Badrukk is much better but his 24" guns make him even harder to use in such list. As for the big meks, they surely need gitfindas or 2d6 shots to be worth the price. And mortal wounds triggering on 11+ is pretty meh. It needs like 9+ to be worth considering for such points.
The saddest part is that sm would have done much better with flying bricks and conversion beamer techmarines.
Also, games vs gunlines show the poor state of game rules overall. The whole game was basically decided by one unit of kommandoes not rolling 9+ on 2d6. The rest of the stuff i had been doing for like an hour before that happened to be irrelevant because of two dice rolls. Cause there is really nothing else you can do. There are no game mechanics to use. In the end you just HAVE to make this random charge. Or they shoot you off the board.
Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
Jidmah wrote: Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
It depends on how you want to play them. They're ok as min units of 5 dudes or bigger ones if you want to get them into assault and do something. Just go for free upgrades like burnas regardless of the unit's size if you have the models and a big choppa or pk for the nob if you field a large squad.
I've tried 2-4 units of 5 dudes or 2-4 units of 15 of them, they're good with both sizes but they do different jobs. Mobbing up a unit of 10 and another one of 15 dudes is also a lot of fun.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
I've tried 3x10 with and without zagstruck or a single big unit of 20-30 dudes. The big unit is a bullet magnet, three of them sometimes are more versatile even without their leader, just put a 30 man mob near them in turn 1 if you don't have zagstruk. Both options are solid in my experience, I prefer a single large squad though.
Jidmah wrote: Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
It wounds in a 3+? How so?
Average is S7 with S6 still being very likely. Since d3 damage is not dangerous to vehicles at all, you'll usually be killing elite infantry, bikes and stuff like that. Blowing eldar snipers out of cover from 60" away also leaves some emotional scars on your opponent
Geemoney wrote: I have considered taking SAG's with Mek Gunz, since the Big Mek can also fix the guns when the break....
It's about the only synergy the Big Mek has outside of using the KFF. They really should implement an aura ability for him for generic shooting units, like "Dakkaboss" where he lets units re-roll 1's to hit in shooting. Though I guess it would just make KMK even more must taken than they already are now.
mrtomski wrote: I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
I have not yet tried kommandos, it would be a nightmare to buy an amount that I would consider useful (like ensuring morale isnt an issue etc) and I have not proxied them before. I think SemperMortis has a lot of experience with Kommandos and he's the one to ask, although he has pure green tide with no support except weirdboyz I think. If I was to use them, I would consider them as stormboy substitutes as I feel they do the same role.
I think 60 boyz on foot is enough only if I am bringing 60 stormboyz. I think in general stormboyz are just better than boyz in my list. As for how many? I really don't know. Consider the speed of play of the army and how long your tournament rounds are (i played 2.5 hours). I brought 120 boyz with magnetised movement trays and almost all my games BARELY finished (including short cutting combat a lot of the time). It is a nightmare of an army to play, and the more boyz the more dice, it becomes unplayable. Finishing games in 2.5 hours is hard (ITC is 6 rounds). My goal is to bring as little as 90 storm/boyz for my next tournament to speed up the list and just enjoy the games more.
I think damage output wise, removing the dakkajet and replacing it with boyz/stormboyz is correct (or three weirdboyz, or 4 KMK, or another squad of tankbustas etc). The way my list was built, the mortal wounds from bombs in a blitza/burna are not that important, and often it was impossible to fly over the unit you are trying to bomb, especially if your opponent is good. I enjoyed the freedom of movement with my dakkajet, the bombs would reduce or even remove that freedom. However that freedom is really only important in ITC missions (even maelstrom the dakkajet is relatively useless).
Geemoney wrote: I have considered taking SAG's with Mek Gunz, since the Big Mek can also fix the guns when the break....
It's about the only synergy the Big Mek has outside of using the KFF. They really should implement an aura ability for him for generic shooting units, like "Dakkaboss" where he lets units re-roll 1's to hit in shooting. Though I guess it would just make KMK even more must taken than they already are now.
grendel083 wrote: I feel a Shokk Attack would work much better if a Big Mek could take 1-3 Ammo Runts.
Runts and Squigs seem to be a really good and characterful mechanic for Orks, and I wish GW would make more use of them in the rules.
Grot Auto-loader upgrade. Modelled by a cage stuffed full of grots which are dropped into the gun automatically. Same effect as ammo runt, can be used 3 times. Make it GW
mrtomski wrote: I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
I have not yet tried kommandos, it would be a nightmare to buy an amount that I would consider useful (like ensuring morale isnt an issue etc) and I have not proxied them before. I think SemperMortis has a lot of experience with Kommandos and he's the one to ask, although he has pure green tide with no support except weirdboyz I think. If I was to use them, I would consider them as stormboy substitutes as I feel they do the same role.
I think 60 boyz on foot is enough only if I am bringing 60 stormboyz. I think in general stormboyz are just better than boyz in my list. As for how many? I really don't know. Consider the speed of play of the army and how long your tournament rounds are (i played 2.5 hours). I brought 120 boyz with magnetised movement trays and almost all my games BARELY finished (including short cutting combat a lot of the time). It is a nightmare of an army to play, and the more boyz the more dice, it becomes unplayable. Finishing games in 2.5 hours is hard (ITC is 6 rounds). My goal is to bring as little as 90 storm/boyz for my next tournament to speed up the list and just enjoy the games more.
I think damage output wise, removing the dakkajet and replacing it with boyz/stormboyz is correct (or three weirdboyz, or 4 KMK, or another squad of tankbustas etc). The way my list was built, the mortal wounds from bombs in a blitza/burna are not that important, and often it was impossible to fly over the unit you are trying to bomb, especially if your opponent is good. I enjoyed the freedom of movement with my dakkajet, the bombs would reduce or even remove that freedom. However that freedom is really only important in ITC missions (even maelstrom the dakkajet is relatively useless).
I proxy Boyz for Kommandos because the difference between the two models is...marginal at the most and realistically why do they sell a kit of 5 boyz models for that much when the sculpt isnt that different? But you are right, there is really only two ways to play Kommandos right now. 1 is the MSU where you save them and drop them strategically around the board on objectives or against really squishy heavy weapons or vehicles. The other is MBU, (Multiple BIG units ) and this is how I play them, its basically no different then a Green tide list except I don't have to spend 2-3 turns foot slogging up the board and getting blown to pieces, I show up whichever turn I want with 90 Kommandos and 30 Boyz and roll 7 Charges with rerolls and 1 (if its a good roll) with a command point reroll to almost always guarantee 4+ get into CC. Once in CC They spread out and engage as many units as they physically can so that the units that didn't get their charges off don't get deleted off the board. I team that up with either More boyz who "Da Jump" the following turn or I have tried using 50 Stormboyz in 2 units with a KFF Big Mek on bike backing them up to give them a 5++ save against shooting. Ive also been toying with the idea of using my 5 KMKs with that list in order to hold back field objectives AND have a bit of Dakka to blast a hole in infantry screens or just remove a unit that is slowing down my advance. Ohh and I always bring at least 1 Weirdboy, usually 2.
Remember, they don't sell kits based on the difficulty of the sculpt, or the amount of material. They price them based on the in-game value of the units.
If, tomorrow, Grots suddenly gained 10 strength, BS 7 and a1++ save, you know they'd be selling packages of 3 for $70 US.
Anvildude wrote: Remember, they don't sell kits based on the difficulty of the sculpt, or the amount of material. They price them based on the in-game value of the units.
If, tomorrow, Grots suddenly gained 10 strength, BS 7 and a1++ save, you know they'd be selling packages of 3 for $70 US.
Maybe you're being sarcastic and I apologize if I didn't get the humor behind your post but that's not true at all as the stompa and nauts are the most expensive kits and terrible units. The meganobz box comes with 3 dudes and is way more expensive (it actually costs more than twice) than the 5 man nobz kit.
You may find examples of things that don't follow Anvildude's rule, but I think generally he is correct. Characters often cost 25-50 bucks (AUD) whereas I can get 5 to 10 times the plastic and sculpts from a squad of anything in a box. Generally it is priced based on expected demand and quality of unit I think.
What do you guys think of Smite/weirdboy spam, with the positives to casting from being around boyz squads weirdboys can continually cast smite and the more you do the reduced chances of perils?
The beta rules, which I fully expect to become official rules, take some of the punch out Smite spam. You're probably still fine if the weirdboyz are doing other heavy lifting as well, but maybe wait and see if you primarily want them to spam mortal wounds.
Beta rules have next to no effect on weird boyz. No one cares about having +5 instead of +7.
The downside of weirdboy spam is that they will eventually explode unless you bring enough pain boys - at which point the spam is no longer point efficient.
Another problem with smite-spam is that many players has learned to screen effectively against it. And without the codex, we only have two proper powers to fall back on.
grendel083 wrote: So how are people using their Storm Boyz, what's your tactics?
I don't mean on paper, squad size, what the Nob is equipped with etc.. I mean actual tactics on the table.
Up the flank far from the main force? Behind your boyz until they're ready to jump over?
I use them along with a jumping group of shootas and a squad or two of bikers mainly to put first turn pressure on the opponent. The only reason I'm using the two squads of bikers is because I don't have two more squads of stormboyz. Honestly I think the best way to use them is early game pressure. They don't hit as hard as boyz, but they're fast, and using them along with a blob of 30 shootas is a good hammer and anvil strategy.
grendel083 wrote: So how are people using their Storm Boyz, what's your tactics?
I don't mean on paper, squad size, what the Nob is equipped with etc.. I mean actual tactics on the table.
Up the flank far from the main force? Behind your boyz until they're ready to jump over?
I run em in sixes in trukks and paired with small trukkboy mobs.
Start the came with trukks on the line sideways, Stormboys inside, boys behind. T1 get the stormboys out, move em, and try to charge something shotty on the other side. Boys get in then trukks move.
I’ve got a unit of 15 that, combined with 30 kommandos and usually a jumped mob of 20 boyz turn 1 gives my opponent an immediate headache. That’s when the the tide rolls in
As other have already mentioned, I use 30 storm Boyz with PK Nob combined with blobs of da jump Boyz to put first turn pressure on opponents.
You have to be careful with target selection in order to pile in and consolidate fully around your target in order that they cannot fallback and open you up to retaliatory shooting. Factor in at least 3-4 going down to full throttle, and around 5 or 6 to overwatch depending on your target. If they are exposed, then expect to get blown away. Ideally, you want to time it so that you can sustain a couple of rounds in combat to allow the rest of your Boyz to catch up. But ultimately, I treat storm Boyz as I treat all units, like disposable one shot missiles.
My last game, however, I used a mob to successfully eviscerate a squad of Alpha legion tactical marines before swallowing a squad of terminators and chaos Lord, although they were helped out there by a weirdboy gifting them warpath and assisting with smite. So they can be useful, but you need to be careful not to leave them hanging in the breeze facing the wrath of a gun line.
I only use them with the green tide as a bullet magnet. They're basically there to let my 1-2 units of 10 boyz untouched so they can merge into bigger mobs later.
I play a single mob of 20-30 stormboyz or 3x10, but usually in the same way. I deploy them in order to get the painboy aura in turn 1 and all they have to do is to pressure the opponent.
I don't play the KFF with footsloggers so against armies that have massive AP-1 anti infantry shots (aka SM) I may deploy them in a different way, out of line of sight or in cover if I have medium sized units and not the single big blob.
In my experience they can be quite useful against armies that are not pure gunlines, so the opponent can move some of his units in order to deal with them, and that's their goal, to be a distraction and put pressure. Against static gunlines tons of kommandos match better than stormboyz to pair with deepstriking boyz.
Even if they can fly never try catching flyers, they will melt in the process.
So, I´ve got this upcoming game against Nurgle stuff (1200 Points). Any good advice? I was thinking to get a Morkanaut in there and then weridboy Boyz and Nobs... 10 Gretchins to get an objective maybe...
Ah, I was wondering whether you would be facing nurgle daemons or Death Guard. Sounds like some Death Guard with daemon support though.
In general, both daemons and death guard are pretty good at killing tough targets, but lack when it comes to killing hordes, so "moar boyz" is a good advice as usual.
Disgustingly Resilient needs to be rolled for each point of damage done, so when you shoot something with rokkits or deffguns, those nurgle marines and daemons are much more likely to die.
The one thing you need to be careful with are pox walkers. While they are nowhere near as deadly as boyz, they replenish their ranks whenever they kill and infantry model, make sure you never let them charge your boyz, or you'll find yourself quickly swamped in pox walkers. There also is a stratagem that allows pox walkers to be created whenever infantry dies within 7" of them, which works both for his and your infantry. If you have the choice to kill cultists, pox walkers, marines or plague bearers, always kill pox walkers first, they can't replenish if they are wiped out. A unit of choppa boyz will probably take them down, unless they have multiple buffs.
Death Guard is also pretty reliant on buffs from psykers, bring along a weird boy or two to deny their powers, but keep in mind that everything will be able to roll a 5+ against smite wounds.
Unless your morkanaut manages to connect with it, ignore the drone. Its flamers will take a terrible toll on your army, but orks simply don't have the means to kill it. Better kill everything else.
All further advice heavily depends on what he will be fielding.
Going up against 2000pts of what my opponent tells me will be a Tzeench daemon horde army. I have most of my list made, but need to decide between List A’s unit of 10 nobz with 10 ammo runts, or list B’s 14 lootas and 3 warbilers w/pk boss
Each version of the list has 110 boyz, 30 kommandos, some stormboyz and KMKs (not buyimg more of either of those last two)
Gruxz wrote: Any advice for playing against Mortarion? That guy is driving me nuts.
Kannons and KMK everywhere. Spread the guns out as far as possible and hope for good damage rolls. He is just one unit, so if you deny him multi-charges, you can limit damage. Add weird boyz for some mortal wounds on him.
Bubble wrap with boyz, and try to prevent him from flying over them.
Tank bustas also deal good damage to him, but they are and easy kill for Mortarion. Miasma of Pestilence (-1 to hit) also hurts them a lot more than it does gretchin.
Thrakka has a good chance of surviving a turn against him, but the chance of him just one-shotting Thrakka is just as high. If you manage to charge him with Thrakka and two units of boyz, you might even have a chance to cause some serious damage to him.
Also make peace with the idea of him wiping one unit of boyz every turn. He kills 17 boyz on average in combat, plus another 4-5 with his grenades. Even if you spent 2 CP to keep him in combat, he will wipe them during your turn and be free to kill whatever during his turn.
Orks aren't exactly equipped to handle such monsters, but at least he is T7 so charging him with boyz is not totally in vain - a full mob of choppa boyz with Thrakka, Banner and warpath behind it has a good chance to take off half his wounds.
For Mortarian I figure with 8 KMK, 2 Weirdboyz, Kaptian, and 10ish Tankbustaz, I should be able to get him down to 1-2 wounds if not out right kill him. I generally try to commit a unit of something to charge him in order to finish him off.
Really you just need to figure out what combination of gunz/magic you need to be able to do 16 wound to him. Also don't try and charge him with more than 1 unit, because he will always be able to interrupt and swing; and he has enough attacks to basically wipe a squad of boyz.
Gruxz wrote: Any advice for playing against Mortarion? That guy is driving me nuts.
I learned this strategy from Cancon last month, it works against magnus or morty. Spread out and ignore them. If you have KMKs, you place one KMK on the far right of your deployment, then 15 inches of grots (3" coherency) then another KMK, then 15" of grot, then a KMK, etc... Then deploy your boyz across your entire deployment zone, mostly forward.
When morty comes in, he'll hit a boyz squad, and that squad is dead. Flee from combat with this boyz squad (if some are left), and flee forward. But with everyone else you actually run past him and battle the rest of their army. Morty will then have to make a choice, attack the horde or attack the guns. Regardless of his choice, you continue to ignore him and spread out more. Morty should not be able to do more than 200 points of damage a turn at this rate, probably closer to 100. Don't clump your characters, spread them out too (VERY important vs morty).
If you're playing Malestrom, hope the game ends on turn 5, and you'll probably win on objectives.
If you're playing ITC, you'll win this game and be ahead on points all game.
If you're playing a game without objectives, you'll lose if the game goes on long enough. If you commit to combat with him you'll take major damage, and if you try to shoot him to death you'll just waste two turns of shooting.
grendel083 wrote: So how are people using their Storm Boyz, what's your tactics?
I don't mean on paper, squad size, what the Nob is equipped with etc.. I mean actual tactics on the table.
Up the flank far from the main force? Behind your boyz until they're ready to jump over?
If I use them (which isn't that common anymore) I field them in 2 mobs of 25-30 depending on points availability. I team them with a Big Mek KFF on Bike to give them a bit of durability and a Painboy on Bike. I then use them to bumrush up a weak flank on turn 1, drawing heavy fire. Then on turn 2 I have 30 Boyz Da Jump into charge range as well as 90 Kommandos in 6 units of 15 with 2 Burnas and a Nob with either a BC or nothing. So on turn 2 I have 9 Units and 2 ICs in charge range, I have anywhere from 147-172 Boyz/Nobz/Kommandos/StormBoyz and characters charging. The next turn I deep strike another 30 Boyz forward and then my Stormboyz who are likely disengaged at this point (enemy ran away or died in CC) jump OVER the enemy lines and pins either his units in place or assaults heavy support units including vehicles, the goal is to surround the target so they can't retreat and shoot the next turn, or retreat and leave my boyz open to being shot off the table.
What sort of results are you having with mixed mobs of Boyz?
For my current campaign, I've been experimenting with 2 mobs of 20, broken down into 1 Nob, 7 shootas, 2 rokkits and 10 choppas. The idea being that each mob is flexible, can offer some dakka punch, but use those shootas as the casualties until the mob gets stuck in. It seems to work reasonably well most of the time.
But tbh after a pretty brutal match against ravenwing, I'm feeling that it would be simpler and more effective to keep each mob dedicated to one style of combat or the other.
Mobs of 30 may be able to make this idea work better, and I love the idea of having 3 rokkits buried in a mob of 30 Boyz, but my current campaign means I'm stuck with 20. They're still brutal in combat, and the rokkits throw out the occasional nice surprise, but the shootas just don't seem worth taking apart from to soak up the wounds as they rarely seem to produce a reliable wound output with the fewer models in the mob.
I may persevere as I've had some nice results in the past, I'm just a bit thoughtful after today's match. I don't think a composition change would have helped, but it may have streamlined the game and made it simpler. I am tempted to either go full choppa, or full shoota.
r_squared wrote: What sort of results are you having with mixed mobs of Boyz?
For my current campaign, I've been experimenting with 2 mobs of 20, broken down into 1 Nob, 7 shootas, 2 rokkits and 10 choppas. The idea being that each mob is flexible, can offer some dakka punch, but use those shootas as the casualties until the mob gets stuck in. It seems to work reasonably well most of the time.
But tbh after a pretty brutal match against ravenwing, I'm feeling that it would be simpler and more effective to keep each mob dedicated to one style of combat or the other.
Mobs of 30 may be able to make this idea work better, and I love the idea of having 3 rokkits buried in a mob of 30 Boyz, but my current campaign means I'm stuck with 20. They're still brutal in combat, and the rokkits throw out the occasional nice surprise, but the shootas just don't seem worth taking apart from to soak up the wounds as they rarely seem to produce a reliable wound output with the fewer models in the mob.
I may persevere as I've had some nice results in the past, I'm just a bit thoughtful after today's match. I don't think a composition change would have helped, but it may have streamlined the game and made it simpler. I am tempted to either go full choppa, or full shoota.
Any thoughts?
I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.
Tbh I made some rookie mistakes but Overall fighting against an army with Codex is just plain unfair.
A Daemon prince crushed my Morkanaut in 1 turn... It is just to easy for them to get a Turn 1 Charge... as Orks we rely on luck (Da jump + 9 Inch Charge and only one squad).
Bloat drones seem overpowerd...
The Stratagem that gets 1 pox walker for each infantry model that dies is just broken, it just doesn´t make sense to Charge against Cultists...
Hitting on 5+ sucks (ok, we are orks, but at least we should have lots more of Dakka).
On the bright side.
Da Boyz managed to surroung a Rhino with some plague marines in... all dead.
As we were playing for objectives the lack of mobility was an issue and as ork you just can´t have a unit wasting time going for objectives (except for gretchins), you Need all those orks running to the enemy.
Use single buggies and min units of kommandos to go for objectives, and of course artillery on those ones in your backline. Maybe empty trukks if you already delivered their cargo or the orks that were embarked have been killed previously.
malcontent999 wrote: I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.
Matches my experience.
I experimented with giving a mob 3 rokkits+kombi-rokkit on nob and mob it up with another rokkit+kombi rokkit before jumping them. While it's not useless, spending 76 points on 1-3 rokkit hits is not exactly a good trade.
Better invest those points in artillery, weird boyz or tank bustas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ming wrote: This sunday I had a game against Death Guard.
Tbh I made some rookie mistakes but Overall fighting against an army with Codex is just plain unfair.
A Daemon prince crushed my Morkanaut in 1 turn... It is just to easy for them to get a Turn 1 Charge... as Orks we rely on luck (Da jump + 9 Inch Charge and only one squad).
While I agree with the codex vs index being unfair...
How did that work with the daemon prince? Without Warptime (which requires psyker from CSM or TS), he moves 12" plus another 2d6" charge. A biker warboss can do the same.
Besides that, a prince with dual claws can do 7x 2 damage, but wounds on 5s and you still get a 5+ save.
A prince with axe and dice luck might hit 4 attacks, but still wounds on 4+ and deals no more than 3 damage per failed save.
So even with ridiculous dice luck and +2 to wound from stratagem and psyhic power, he should not have been able to one-shot your naut.
Bloat drones seem overpowerd...
As I said, orks don't have the tools to handle them. Just accept that they will fry a bunch of orks each turn.
I play death guard myself and even codex armies with great shooting struggle to take them down. I a recent game two units of dark angel hellblasters had to shoot one drone for three turns and spend three CP on weapons of the dark age to take it down.
The Stratagem that gets 1 pox walker for each infantry model that dies is just broken, it just doesn´t make sense to Charge against Cultists...
The range of the stratagem is 7", you should usually be able to charge the pox walkers instead of the cultists. Storm boyz or kommandoz help a lot here.
As we were playing for objectives the lack of mobility was an issue and as ork you just can´t have a unit wasting time going for objectives (except for gretchins), you Need all those orks running to the enemy.
I think this is just another symptom of not having a codex yet. In general it's better to sit on objective instead of going for the enemy though, even if it's boring as hell.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Use single buggies and min units of kommandos to go for objectives, and of course artillery on those ones in your backline. Maybe empty trukks if you already delivered their cargo or the orks that were embarked have been killed previously.
While a good advice in general, the daemon prince +2 bloat drone element in death guard armies is incredibly good at taking out those objective holders. Each one can clear an objective of cheap objective holders each turn. A drone can reliably take out two KMK crews per turn.
As I said, orks don't have the tools to handle them. Just accept that they will fry a bunch of orks each turn.
I play death guard myself and even codex armies with great shooting struggle to take them down. I a recent game two units of dark angel hellblasters had to shoot one drone for three turns and spend three CP on weapons of the dark age to take it down.
He managed to get some wounds in in the Shooting fase and then the Prince did 13 Wounds (then it blew itself up in the next Shooting fase...) He managed to Charge ´cause I got turn one and moved forward.
The prince had a couple of artifacts i think.
The Stratagem that gets 1 pox walker for each infantry model that dies is just broken, it just doesn´t make sense to Charge against Cultists...
The range of the stratagem is 7", you should usually be able to charge the pox walkers instead of the cultists. Storm boyz or kommandoz help a lot here.
I failed me fist Da Jumo test (with a +3 from Da Boyz and Gretchins (yes, I did CP it and failed again)), so no "deep striking".
I think this is just another symptom of not having a codex yet. In general it's better to sit on objective instead of going for the enemy though, even if it's boring as hell.
Ming wrote: He managed to get some wounds in in the Shooting fase and then the Prince did 13 Wounds (then it blew itself up in the next Shooting fase...) He managed to Charge ´cause I got turn one and moved forward.
The prince had a couple of artifacts i think.
The only way to archive 13 wounds with a daemon prince is stupid dice luck. Not much you can do about that.
First of all, a character can only ever have one relic. For the daemon prince this is almost always the suppurating pate, which give him a 2+ save and deals mortal wounds for successful saves on a 4+. He cannot have the sword, and all other relics don't do damage.
Second, DG daemon princes cannot have any plague weapons, so no re-rolling to wound rolls and no mortal wounds from rolling sixes after buffing him with blades of putrefaction.
So, on average, a dual talon prince (which is considered best for DG) would hit 6.8 (2+ with re-roll), with both VotLW and blades wound 4.5 times (5+ +2 to wound), with 3 wound being unsaved (AP -2) for a total of 6 damage. So, even if you used the undegraded smash profile on him (use crush against daemon princes with plate), you would get 2-3 mortal wounds back from the relic.
So, don't fret it, you just had bad luck in that regard. If dice luck swings the other way, your morkanaut might just crush the daemon prince right into the ground.
malcontent999 wrote: I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.
Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!
Jidmah wrote: The one thing you need to be careful with are pox walkers. While they are nowhere near as deadly as boyz, they replenish their ranks whenever they kill and infantry model, make sure you never let them charge your boyz, or you'll find yourself quickly swamped in pox walkers. There also is a stratagem that allows pox walkers to be created whenever infantry dies within 7" of them, which works both for his and your infantry. If you have the choice to kill cultists, pox walkers, marines or plague bearers, always kill pox walkers first, they can't replenish if they are wiped out. A unit of choppa boyz will probably take them down, unless they have multiple buffs.
Truth. Those buggers are annoying.
Just remember to use choppa boyz on them, and don't forget they can shoot their pistols in your following shooting phase, if you get stuck in. For some reason I forget that one alot.
malcontent999 wrote: I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.
Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Kopta rokkits and twin big shootas got cheaper, making deffkoptas cheaper.
Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Kopta rokkits and twin big shootas got cheaper, making deffkoptas cheaper.
No problem, I don’t know why I missed that in CA, probably because they are still overpriced...
They are cheaper than what they were last edition with bombs. The only reason Deffkoptas are so expensive now is because they come in bombs. You can play them with out bombs, but you are already paying for them might as well take them.
Most competitive list with the fewest possible drops? Going first seems really important for orks so what do people do to get that +1 to the first turn roll?
BAN wrote: Most competitive list with the fewest possible drops? Going first seems really important for orks so what do people do to get that +1 to the first turn roll?
I actually think that going first is slightly less important to Orks than to a lot of other factions.
If you want to limit your drops then you can:
1) Always maximise unit size.
2) Use transports, even though they kind of suck. You can make a noblist with 3 battle-wagons with a helping of Kustom Mega Kannons (6 KMK can count as a single drop)
3) Limit your amount of characters, or deploy some of them in a trukk. But remember that your KFF-meks and painboyz should be deployed disembarked alongside your troops.
4) If you bring a Stompa, then you will probably go first before you are tabled.
So I'm a new player but I had my first few games with Orks at 800 points against ultra marines.
I had:
Warboss with pk big mek kff 2 x weirdboyz with wp and da jump
2 x 30 boyz /w pk nob
4x nobs with pk 1x nob 5x ammo runt
my boyz were 20 choppa 10 shoota units.
he had
chapter master on bike
2 x razorback with twin autocannon
3x scout squads
2x tactical squad
1x tech marine on bike
he gave his cm a 3cmd point abilty to get a 6' reroll bubble - which was horrendous.
we played two games with these lists.
In the first game I failed all of my da jump charges. The first turn he killed an entire boy squad - I thought at this point I was finished.
Turn 2 he had re-positioned to get more shots on the boyz and left a small gap in his backline so I jumped the nob squad, they failed the charge but did well soaking up a lot of shots the next turn, they also managed to kill a a couple of marines with the runt rerolls.
Turn 3 I charged the nobz, and the remaining boyz charged into his closest tactical squad. I got lucky with a big charge for the nobz so I was able to consolidate into his chapter master. I also did a funky move by jumping a weridboy into range so he could smite. He actually made his charge too only to die in overwatch, doh.
From then on amazingly I slowly killed everything, the nobz were pretty resilient and he puts all the attacks he could on them, while the boyz did some work.
Eventually all my characters got into combat and a smite from my weirdboy finished his cm. Eventually the game ended with him having a 4 wound razorback surrounded by my big mek, boss and weirdboy.
A really fun game and it amazed me that even with such a horrible antihorde list I still managed to steamroll his dudes once the boyz got into combat.
I'll write up the next game tomorrow, but it didn't go as well!
I think one thing that I learnt was that jumping one squad is very risky and it needs backup to split the shooting if the charge fails.
Yeah hinging the game on a 9" re-roll charge can be exciting, but perhaps not the best strategy. I think, accounting for 'ere we go and/or command re-roll, your jump charge has a roughly 50% chance for success.
Hopefully you have some enclosed buildings on your board!
I've given up Da Jumping units to do a 9" charge, even though the odds are better than most other factions, I find the risk not worth it.
Lately I've been dabbling with Da Jumping 30 shoota boyz and maybe using Dakka Dakka Dakka (depending on the target). I've been having a lot more success with this one. If I can land the boyz on an objective it's great, even if I don't need the objective it works as a form of area denial.
I treat them as a disposable unit, so once I Da Jump them their main goal is to distract my opponent and sit on that objective. If it works out, the opponent is trading shots with my shoota boyz while my choppa boyz walk up with a warboss for the charge.
I used to try Da Jumping tankbustas but have opted for loading them up in supa-skorcha big trakks. I found that Da Jumping tankbustas got me mostly even trades, which was okay but I wanted to do a bit better. I find that using two big trakks is ideal, they're massive targets for my enemy but so far I've held onto at least one into the late game.
One thing I haven't tried but plan to is try Da Jumping Flash Gitz, I know they're not the most competitive unit but I have a weak spot for them. The hopeful plan is to put them up in cover, near an objective if possible, and lay down fire. I would probably aim for somewhere in the middle of the map, for more of an area control approach. with at least one enemy unit in range so I don't waste their shooting. Ideally they'll sit there for the entire game.
I've only played a few games, but I love Da Jumping Shoota Boyz and rolling a lot of dice; its fun and as you said, even if they don't make the charge, they still do something.
I've been thinking about Jumping a squad of grots; 90/120 points for a squad of 30/40... that said, statistically they're not going to do much of anything, doubly so without a Runtherd (really sad he's not a member of the squad that can go with them - having a jumping morale reducer too would be great). Add in Warpath - and you have a horde of S3 guns backed up by S2 attacks (S2/T2 units not doing much though :( ); they may die in droves, but perhaps they can tie units up and buy time.
Haven't tested the Grot theory yet though.
Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.
They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.
I almost always Da Jump tankbustas turn 1. You mentioned "even trade" and I would agree, they typically do their points in damage. But I'm actually really okay with that, for shooting something off the board and then absorbing some shots, I'll take it (you don't get much better with our index IMO).
Then I typically jump characters around the table. Warboss when I need an advance + charge on boyz that were far away, or a character on a hard to reach objective, or a painboy near a squad of boyz ready to fight. Sometimes even the weirdboy himself.
fe40k wrote: I've only played a few games, but I love Da Jumping Shoota Boyz and rolling a lot of dice; its fun and as you said, even if they don't make the charge, they still do something.
I've been thinking about Jumping a squad of grots; 90/120 points for a squad of 30/40... that said, statistically they're not going to do much of anything, doubly so without a Runtherd (really sad he's not a member of the squad that can go with them - having a jumping morale reducer too would be great). Add in Warpath - and you have a horde of S3 guns backed up by S2 attacks (S2/T2 units not doing much though :( ); they may die in droves, but perhaps they can tie units up and buy time.
Haven't tested the Grot theory yet though.
Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.
They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.
You could spread the grots out into a chain 2 models deep across quite a large area of the battlefield to act as a physical barrier to block movement. 40 grots, 2 models deep equals 22" line across the board the enemy can't move into unless they kill the grots. Could serve to block the movement of fast units. Since shooting and charges happen after movement, you'll have basically hamstrung your opponents first move with their fast units like bikes, cavalry, monsters, jump infantry etc. as they can't move within an inch of the grots and the grots could be spaced such that the first grot is 10" away from that unit, his base is ~1", the grot behind him is 2" away from that grot, his base is ~1", then the opponent can't move within an inch of him, so that means that model has to move 15" to clear the unit, and that is just for the closest model. If the unit is deployed in a quite deep formation on the table, they won't be getting over the grot wall.
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
Multimoog wrote: After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
I think kommandos definitely can be worth it. There appears to be two ways of using them: Either take minimum 45 points squads that you can drop on objectives, or use to tie up exposed and weakened enemy units. These mini squads you will not use all at once, but sprinkle down over your first three turns.
The other way is to take maximum squads of 15, and use them to overload a flank along with jumped in boyz. If you jump in 30 boyz and 60 kommandos, then you will end up in melee with a lot of bodies. And those that fail the charge might well survive till your next turn, where they can move, shoot and charge normally.
Multimoog wrote: After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.
Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.
However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.
Quackzo wrote: What are some good tactics to do with Da Jump?
I've given up Da Jumping units to do a 9" charge, even though the odds are better than most other factions, I find the risk not worth it.
Lately I've been dabbling with Da Jumping 30 shoota boyz and maybe using Dakka Dakka Dakka (depending on the target). I've been having a lot more success with this one. If I can land the boyz on an objective it's great, even if I don't need the objective it works as a form of area denial.
I treat them as a disposable unit, so once I Da Jump them their main goal is to distract my opponent and sit on that objective. If it works out, the opponent is trading shots with my shoota boyz while my choppa boyz walk up with a warboss for the charge.
I used to try Da Jumping tankbustas but have opted for loading them up in supa-skorcha big trakks. I found that Da Jumping tankbustas got me mostly even trades, which was okay but I wanted to do a bit better. I find that using two big trakks is ideal, they're massive targets for my enemy but so far I've held onto at least one into the late game.
One thing I haven't tried but plan to is try Da Jumping Flash Gitz, I know they're not the most competitive unit but I have a weak spot for them. The hopeful plan is to put them up in cover, near an objective if possible, and lay down fire. I would probably aim for somewhere in the middle of the map, for more of an area control approach. with at least one enemy unit in range so I don't waste their shooting. Ideally they'll sit there for the entire game.
I've only had good results by jumping 30-40 boyz, usually shootaboyz. Even if you fail the charge the opponent must deal with them, they become high priority letting other boyz and maybe stormboyz advance without being crippled. Flash gitz have heavy weapons and really don't want to move, that's why I wouldn't teleport them. I prefer giving them a transport since those 30-40 boyz that arrive by da jump are too scary for the opponent and if you teleport something else, like the gitz or bustas, they would be targeted and deleted the subsequent turn. They have 6+ save, so cover doesn't really make them safe.
Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.
They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.
I have decent results with the morkanaut in lists full of transports. He works basically as a bullet magnet giving the invuln to other units and soaking a lot of firepower. The gorkanaut has a better profile but it's a bit more expensive and needs a big mek with KFF which makes the whole combo a huge ponts sink. The morkanaut has also a better shooting, even if he doesn't actually do very much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Multimoog wrote: After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
I think they're overrated but still a solid unit. Stormboyz and boyz are more efficient IMHO. Maybe you have to build a list around kommandos to make them protagonists in battle. I sometimes use them, in min squads or/and large ones but usually when I don't bring the green tide.
Multimoog wrote: After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.
Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.
However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.
Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.
Multimoog wrote: After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.
If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.
Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.
However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.
Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.
You are not going to set them up in cover if you want to charge. You will be subtracting 2 from your charge roll when charging out of cover, giving you a very slim chance of making the charge. Normally you have a 49% chance of making a 9" charge, so if you deepstrike four units of kommandos and a squad of boyz, then you will almost certainly cause some major grief. Regards
Multimoog wrote: Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.
Yeah, you put all that effort in for a 25 man, and still don't get then 20boyz +1 attack if you stick the charge, and you can't Warpath them before you send them off to die. Sooooo... 25 boyz - 125 attacks, 150 points. 25 kommandos - 75 attacks, 225 points and 1CP. I mean that's worst case scenario, but its over twice as efficient.
I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.
Multimoog wrote: Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.
Yeah, you put all that effort in for a 25 man, and still don't get then 20boyz +1 attack if you stick the charge, and you can't Warpath them before you send them off to die. Sooooo... 25 boyz - 125 attacks, 150 points. 25 kommandos - 75 attacks, 225 points and 1CP. I mean that's worst case scenario, but its over twice as efficient.
I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.
I think that this is a pretty bad idea. You need boyz, they are our best unit. A better strategy is to take only a single KFF-bubble with a painboy, a weirdboy or two, a warboss and 60-90 boyz. Put them on a single flank of the board, thus protecting you from some of his shooting, and saving the points of an additional Warbos, KFF-Mek and painboy, which you would have needed to extend coverage to a full green tide of 180-200 boyz. The above is about 800-900 points with 7-8 drops. Then you can deploy the rest as artillery, deepstrikers, character spam etc. It is essentially a half greentide with a configurable other half. In general, overloading a flank works well for Orks I think.
Uh let's just agree to disagree, if you go second against any reasonable army you're going to lose 30-70 wounds of boyz depending on their firepower. I don't personally think you have the room to land on a flank with 90 boys (and be out of range of... anything at all really). That is just too much size , and if you hide them behind each other you've just deployed them in a way that makes full squads of boyz late to the party, and thus easier to shoot at.
My imaginary kommando list doesn't mind going second, loses 5-8 KMK turn 1, then only takes overwatch damage on 90 boys assaulting turn 1. I would probably Da Jump Ghazkull up there with them in this list, give em something to rally around. I pay zero points in KFF or painboyz, but I take zero shooting damage before I charge.
edit: damnit I'm going to play this list! I'm selling myself on the idea.
hollow one wrote: Uh let's just agree to disagree, if you go second against any reasonable army you're going to lose 30-70 wounds of boyz depending on their firepower. I don't personally think you have the room to land on a flank with 90 boys (and be out of range of... anything at all really). That is just too much size , and if you hide them behind each other you've just deployed them in a way that makes full squads of boyz late to the party, and thus easier to shoot at.
My imaginary kommando list doesn't mind going second, loses 5-8 KMK turn 1, then only takes overwatch damage on 90 boys assaulting turn 1. I would probably Da Jump Ghazkull up there with them in this list, give em something to rally around. I pay zero points in KFF or painboyz, but I take zero shooting damage before I charge.
edit: damnit I'm going to play this list! I'm selling myself on the idea.
A KFF-bubble is 18"inches in diamater aways. And you can indeed put it on a flank and protect yourself a little bit. Losing 50 boyz is still possible, especially against deepstiking termaganst or other gak, but this is hardly game-ending. SemperMortis runs a 90 kommando list, but I think he has a few squads of boyz in there as well.
7 drops on the ground, 7 in the sky. I'll get back to you after I lose with this list!
edit: actually you can bring ALL powerklaws if you just drop some of the dumb weapons I gave the HQ.
That is not bad actually. I count 12 KMK, 105 kommandos and the characters. The guns a lone could kill a Leman russ tank if you get first turn, and you should have four units (if you include Ghaz) completing the charge on your first turn. You will do some damage.
Do you own 12 KMKs or will you be proxying teacups?
I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.
I run 60 boyz and 90 kommandos i get around my boyz being shot off the table turn 1 by hiding them in LOS blocking cover, and then I jump them 1st turn for a STRONG BETA strike of 120 models in 7 units. With Charge rerolls and CP reroll I am usually getting 3-5 in every game, and here is the trick, you put the Kommandos close enough to the boyz to get the bonus to leadership and then turn 2 you jump reinforcements up to help out. Don't get me wrong, its risky and against certain armies its almost a death wish, but its better then green tide because you don't have to spend 2-3 turns getting shot off the table, slowly advancing towards your target.
pismakron wrote: That is not bad actually. I count 12 KMK, 105 kommandos and the characters. The guns a lone could kill a Leman russ tank if you get first turn, and you should have four units (if you include Ghaz) completing the charge on your first turn. You will do some damage.
Do you own 12 KMKs or will you be proxying teacups?
I own 8, 6 are painted for Cancon, and if I buy two trukks I can convert 4 more easily. I've been thumping the KMK drums for months here, I invested a long time ago.
I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.
I run 60 boyz and 90 kommandos i get around my boyz being shot off the table turn 1 by hiding them in LOS blocking cover, and then I jump them 1st turn for a STRONG BETA strike of 120 models in 7 units. With Charge rerolls and CP reroll I am usually getting 3-5 in every game, and here is the trick, you put the Kommandos close enough to the boyz to get the bonus to leadership and then turn 2 you jump reinforcements up to help out. Don't get me wrong, its risky and against certain armies its almost a death wish, but its better then green tide because you don't have to spend 2-3 turns getting shot off the table, slowly advancing towards your target.
Ya I like the premise, but if DaJump fails you're fethed, right? Like you just can't get past the morale issue. I'm genuinely going to play the list I posted. I'll just use boyz as counts-as kommandos and get back to you all.
edit: scratch that, you've got 60 bodies to power up the weirdboy, you're not failing, that was an unfair criticism. Maybe you deploy your 60 bodies against the back board edge and rely on jump, that might mitigate heaps of damage. I still like my KMK list more though, feels less gamble because KMK are just plain good.
Hmm. If I proxied most of my boyz as Kommandos I could have 110 of them. That would leave me with 40 boyz left to deploy.i like the idea of Ghaz jumping as well. Snikrot to buff the kommandos and be a cheap HQ. Couple of KMKs and a big mek to help keep all the non deepstriking stuff protected.
Ghazghkull Thraka 215
Weirdboy 62
20 Boyz: 20× shootas; Boss Nob (kustom shoota; big choppa) 131
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120
Boss Snikrot 69
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
Yeah I mean, I don't know if this is a thing but i'll be trying it. However I'm on a bit of a nurgle daemon trip right now so it might be a while until I field the orkz again. Tell us how it goes mate!
Multimoog wrote: Hmm. If I proxied most of my boyz as Kommandos I could have 110 of them.
Spoiler:
That would leave me with 40 boyz left to deploy.i like the idea of Ghaz jumping as well. Snikrot to buff the kommandos and be a cheap HQ. Couple of KMKs and a big mek to help keep all the non deepstriking stuff protected.
Ghazghkull Thraka 215
Weirdboy 62
20 Boyz: 20× shootas; Boss Nob (kustom shoota; big choppa) 131
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120
Boss Snikrot 69
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
15 Kommandos: Boss Nob (power klaw) 148
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
That's an interesting idea. Multiple units able to deepstrike at will to snatch objectives or swarm opponents, combined with the additional attack and intimidation factor of Thraka, it could be a fun list to trial out. You'd definitely need those extra cp to mob up though.
pismakron wrote: That is not bad actually. I count 12 KMK, 105 kommandos and the characters. The guns a lone could kill a Leman russ tank if you get first turn, and you should have four units (if you include Ghaz) completing the charge on your first turn. You will do some damage.
Do you own 12 KMKs or will you be proxying teacups?
I own 8, 6 are painted for Cancon, and if I buy two trukks I can convert 4 more easily. I've been thumping the KMK drums for months here, I invested a long time ago.
So I'm getting into the KMKs, I have one official box and I was looking to do Trukk conversions for the rest. Here is the key question: What do you use for the end of the gun i.e. the KMK bit on your conversions?
I'm looking to have maybe 4 KMKs in the main list but I worry about proxying the other gun types when it comes to tournaments with the what you see if what you get rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so I'm building out my list which currently looks like this:
Warboss on bike - yet to buy
3 weirdboy - 2/3
1 painboy - got it
1 big mek kff - got it
30 shoota boys - got them
30 choppa boys - got them
10 chopa boys - got them
20 stormboyz - need to buy :-(
4 x KMK - 1/4
5x Nob with PK + runts - got them
5 x Nob with TBC equipment - got AOBR nobs which I can customise
That's my core list... Now having played a few games and chatting to some friends that do well in tornemants I want to dedicate some points to objective grabbers.
I'm thinking of a couple of skorchas and 2 min squads of komandos, the speed of skorchas and their relative toughness makes me think they are a good replacement for a komando squad and with the heavy flamer and high move should be able to harass and do soemthing, whereas with Komandos I worry they are too soft and ill equipped to do anything useful other than drop in on an objective.
I was also thinking of getting an Chinork for the Nobz, although I hate they only carry 10 models... I want my runts! Thinking that I could back up a 30 shoota boy turn 1 jump with chinork and skorchas to split the return fire...
I also currently own 4 deffcopters which I wasn't planning on using, that's another option.
I have loads of boyz bits, enough to make the komando squads, or another 30 boy unit, or tankbustas.
mrtomski wrote: So I'm getting into the KMKs, I have one official box and I was looking to do Trukk conversions for the rest. Here is the key question: What do you use for the end of the gun i.e. the KMK bit on your conversions?
mrtomski wrote: So I'm getting into the KMKs, I have one official box and I was looking to do Trukk conversions for the rest. Here is the key question: What do you use for the end of the gun i.e. the KMK bit on your conversions?
I was inspired by this video, but with a few added gubbinz, I think I was able to obtain an ever better result. See below the link in my signature. And I made 4 gunz instead of 3. But of course they aren't all KMKs. If you want them all the same, you could try using sparkplugs, like someone in this thread did (just search for "sparkplug" in this thread).
mongo44 wrote: Anyone seen the UKGT lists yet? Orks placed 2nd and 3rd.
Havent you learned anything in the last 144 pages? Theres a huge taboo about the subject of orks doing anything well or having any kind of success in this thread
I saw that as well, everyone put it down to playing BRB rules and missions and not “real” tournament content ie: ITC. Because it’s not a real game if you’re using the rules that the designers created and don’t skew advantage heavily in favor of elite armies lol
If you have a ticket you should know how this works.
3 heats during which you can earn a place for the actual GT in may. You can't play that without qualifying in a heat.
If you have a ticket you should know how this works.
3 heats during which you can earn a place for the actual GT in may. You can't play that without qualifying in a heat.
I have a ticket for the one held in London, maybe I'm mixing it up with another then?
If you have a ticket you should know how this works.
3 heats during which you can earn a place for the actual GT in may. You can't play that without qualifying in a heat.
I have a ticket for the one held in London, maybe I'm mixing it up with another then?
I assume there is a GT in London then.
The official GWGT is at Warhammer Fest on 12-13th May in the Ricoh Arena in Coventry for those who qualified through the 3 heats.
I've always thought since the release of 8th edition that ultraboring greentides can be very competitive. If a player bringing the tide is lucky enough to face the right opponents he/she can surely win a competitive tournament.
Orks in casual metas usually struggle, and I include good lists in the bunch, not necessarily the worst ones but also those that actually make sense even if they're not fully optimized.
Optimized greentides are a perfect example of Rock-paper-scissor, so if you only bring cheap bodies and you're lucky enough to face a significant amount of anti tank you can definitely win even against the top tiers with average rolls. .
Without wanting to talk down their archievement, they placed 2nd and 3rd because they went 4-0-1 (one draw) instead of 4-1-0 like the 13 people below them. The guy who lost the game against 1st place is at 8.
But even if they had lost the game they drew on, they would be in the top 16, which is still pretty good.
@Blackie: That's probably part of the truth. Dark reapers aren't that great at taking out blobs of boyz, and many people are still bringing lots and lots of anti-tank to combat primarchs and LRBT.
From what I've seen 40kGT lists are much more fluffy than ITC generally and as someone has already said, they use missions straight out the book which is an entirely different game by all accounts.
Fragmentize
Post 2018/02/20 07:38:17 Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Hello everyone.
I've never really had experience with horde armies so wanted to ask a couple of questions before 'possibly' starting Orks.
The reason I want to do Orks is because... I love Kommandos and Stormboys.
Stormboys, I just love their models and Kommandos, I just love their fluff.
The only big fear I have is... the fact I will need to paint 100+ boyz...
Is there possibly a way I can get away with fielding less Boyz?
Can MANstarz (I think that's what they're called) still work?
I was looking at 1000~1500pts
There are alot of factors that could determine how you play, if you are in a competitive area or group you will be needing boyz. i typically never played my lists Horde style but always still keep at least 2 large squads in my lists if not 3 since this edition started. I personally dont find 90 boyz that tough to move around.
If you are in a casual setting you can really get away with anything, and probly still have fun. That said getting a start is tough with Orks due to the model count. Personally i recommend EBAY! you can regularly get painted squads for cheap to help you start your horde. You can also do Boyz and Nobs if you want a reduced model count, this would allow you to get what the boyz do in a smaller (if less effective point for point) package that also has some added utility for -ap weaponry if you desire it, they also fit much better into transports.
Remember you dont need to build the army over night, and you can paint a set of orks yourself and supplement with ebay orks too, they still look good on the table because orks not wearing the same color clothes kinda makes sense they just wear whatever they find or steal for the most part. You will need some boyz to play, but you can get playing at least to get used to the army before you have enough to play horde style. The Nice thing about orks is theres alot on Ebay to help grow your list..... i have too much lol, alot of it ebay. i probly have 40000+ points of orks. and the waagh still show no signs of slowing its growth.
Edit for comment about MANZ, while they are not amazing anymore i think if you wanted to play them but avoid exceptional point costs of getting a transport you can always rely on Da Jump. or put them in another transport that has space, like a BWagon with regular nobs and a few meganobs inside. I still like them i just dont play them often.
Fragmentize wrote: Hello everyone.
I've never really had experience with horde armies so wanted to ask a couple of questions before 'possibly' starting Orks.
The reason I want to do Orks is because... I love Kommandos and Stormboys.
Stormboys, I just love their models and Kommandos, I just love their fluff.
The only big fear I have is... the fact I will need to paint 100+ boyz...
Is there possibly a way I can get away with fielding less Boyz?
Can MANstarz (I think that's what they're called) still work?
I was looking at 1000~1500pts...
Any advice would be great!
MANstarz are called Deff Wing.
The answer to your question is that using less than 100+ will not work. I play in a pretty casual environment and still get tabled whenever I try to go light on boyz.
You should wait for the codex to start orks anyways. It is very likely that it will be released in summer, and it might change enough to make it possible to field less boyz.
Meganobz are not amazing, but since they're my favorite models I usually bring them no matter what I don't think they're that terrible but you have to kit them with dual killsaws and use lists that rely on transports. Alternatively you can jump them but you must play in a scenario full of terrain because in turn 1 they must be out of line of sight or they'll melt if you start second.
My favorite combo is taking 2 BWs, one filled up wth 19 boyz and a weirdboy with warpath and a second wagon that carries 4 meganobz and 12 boyz (or 5 and 10) in a list with only T5-6-8 units deployed. Both vehicles ride together and when the infantries disembark the weirdboy can cast warpath on the meganobz if you need to kill armored stuff, otherwise the +1A goes to the boyz.
3 megnobz in a trukk shared with bustas could also work but you really need to start first since it's a quite expensive combo on fragile transport.
Nothing spectacular but unless you're playing against tournament lists, they can be viable. However at 1000 points it's very hard to include them, and I wouldn't recommend them.
Another way to get away with fielding 100+ boyz is bringing a full dread mob with lots of kanz and artillery.
KillswitchUK wrote: ...As for the Ork list, he used about 150 boys, Mek on bike with shield (2 of them I think), 3 big kannons and 3 dakka jets. He said hed prefer more kannons next time!
I asked in one of the treads discussing the result and KillswitchUK knows the chap apparently.
Killa Kanz -- what weapon do y'all recommend for the shooty arm? Also, how best to field them -- singles or in a unit of 3? (their WS makes me question the utility of scrag 'em). Do you normally try to engage in close combat, or focus on the shooty?
I was hoping they might help with vehicle target saturation, but at T5 I'm thinking they're in a different league than trukks or BW Maybe if I field them with buggies, skorchas, and/or assorted koptas? The balloon corps will proxy both deffkoptas and chinorks, maybe the kanz can be their ground support crew *ponder*
Coh Magnussen wrote: Killa Kanz -- what weapon do y'all recommend for the shooty arm? Also, how best to field them -- singles or in a unit of 3? (their WS makes me question the utility of scrag 'em). Do you normally try to engage in close combat, or focus on the shooty?
I was hoping they might help with vehicle target saturation, but at T5 I'm thinking they're in a different league than trukks or BW Maybe if I field them with buggies, skorchas, and/or assorted koptas? The balloon corps will proxy both deffkoptas and chinorks, maybe the kanz can be their ground support crew *ponder*
1) They are not good. Not at shooting, nor in close-combat. And they are also fairly fragile.
2) Scrag em is definitely worth it. +33% killyness? Yes please.
3) A bannernob also helps. +50% killyness? Yes please.
4) Keep a CP or two in reserve for morale purposes.
5) A big mek on foot can help with durability. Especially by repairing, but a KFF can also help.
6) A kan should have a Rokkitlauncha or Kustom Mega Blaster.
Thanks, I know they're not 'good' units, but... so fluffy! So cute! So very grot-appropriate . I was planning on sending Meka-G (bearing a KFF) in a transport, but perhaps he can footslog with with the Kanz, and I'll have to get to work on Makari and his Waaaaaagh! banner...
I'd also add that I've made best experiences with units of four. Enough models to actually kill something in combat or hold an objective, not enough to lose big when someone focuses them. I find it that I rarely lose two or even three kanz at once.
The do fall in the same category as trukks and BW though. Anything that is good at killing kanz is usually also good at killing transports. The big problem is that you can't actually field enough vehicles to make target saturation matter, but YMMV.
From what I remember, everyone in the thread who’s had success with Kans (mostly in casual games) has had something buffing or supporting them, usually a KFF Mek.
Kanz and basically all our Walkers are still utter trash. They suck.....and I say this with a lot of salt because I LOVE THEM! I own 12 kanz, 2 Dreadz and a Naut :( They are one of my favorite models and if I even want to be remotely competitive I have to leave them on the shelf :(
The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability. And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
I had the best results with kans running units of two, 2x2 or 3x2, a big shoota and a rokkit in each squad. The banner nob helps but unless you have 60 boyz nearby it's too expensive to buffs the walkers only.
They don't do much in combat and they provide a little shooting. In a list with armored stuff like other walkers or transports they provide more target saturation. Their best quality is in fact to soak some firepower, in small units they're durable enough to consider them.
Big shootas, KMBs and rokkits are all ok. Since I always struggle with points I bring half big shootas, which is the cheapest loadout, and half rokkits. I've tried KMBs, they're not bad but for +3points you can give them rokkits that are more efficient.
A KFF and the mek's abiltiy to repair them improve their durability a lot.
koooaei wrote: The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability. And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
The more I play the more I find advice like kooaei's above to be very true. I also have a small army of walkers and have found that even mixing different walkers is a nono right now just because you can almost have 3 Kanz for the price of a Deffdread and six Kanz for the price of a Naught. Differing your toughness values dilutes the spam. Example, you want your enemy's Lascannonz firing at a Kan, Buggy, or Artillery, but not Gorkanaught because suddenly he's super effective vs. a model you paid six times the points for vs a kan. Example number 2, you want your enemy's high volume AP - stuff firing at your Kanz and not t4 orkz, likely because your kanz will be a touch harder to wound, will have a save unlike your boyz, and even absorb more then one wound, so don't bring any t4 models if you are brining kanz. If you wanted to have Kanz on the field with any success I think you build a mainstay of them buffed by a KFF mek and bring buggies/artillery for fire support.
koooaei wrote: The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability.
Spoiler:
And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
Absolutely the best description of the ork army at this time. It's GW's vision for Orks, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
However, we do have a ton of shooting available, it's just mostly too expensive. Trukks are also far too expensive. We are almost the archetypal spam army, which is a shame. I love bringing mixed lists, but they make for short games. If we lack durability, we need cheapness to increase our ablative wounds, or at least mechanisms to assist, like grot meat shields or ramshackle vehicles. All vehicles including walkers getting ramshackle on 6+ or even 5+ would be a huge help.
I've been having fun against other club lists, but if I bring anything with fun stuff or walkers, it just gets shot off the table in the first couple of turns without really doing anything, so I'm left with da jumping Boyz and stormboyz, which is starting to wear a bit thin if I'm honest.
Hopefully the codex will bring some strategems that encourage a wider range of army mix.
koooaei wrote: The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability. And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
This is demonstrably false. In the LVO only one list (the best performing list) had strictly bodies and no heavy support. Literally every other list with a 4/2 record had a mixture of heavy support and boys. Our mixup lists have the capacity to produce results in a tournament setting in a much more reliable way than pure green tide.
edit: bolded for emphasis. Also: both the GT lists were a mixture.
r_squared wrote: We are almost the archetypal spam army, which is a shame. I love bringing mixed lists, but they make for short games. If we lack durability, we need cheapness to increase our ablative wounds, or at least mechanisms to assist, like grot meat shields or ramshackle vehicles. All vehicles including walkers getting ramshackle on 6+ or even 5+ would be a huge help.
In a decently balanced lists you could bring multiple different units that do the same role.
In a perfect codex, you could mix lootaz, artillery and tank bustas for anti-tank, boyz, nobz, gretchin, storm boyz and kommandoz for your rank&file needs, planes, trukks, buggies, koptas, bikes and trakks for things that are durable but fast, and kanz, dreads, nauts and battlewagons for the heavy armor grinding advance.
That way you could flood the board with a proper Waaagh! without spamming the same units over and over.
IIRC the 'best' performing ork list at lvo was grot spam that ended around 50 place and was designed to outscore the opponent in a 3 turn match cause the time runs out after the 3-d turn if you play this list.
koooaei wrote: The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability. And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
This is demonstrably false. In the LVO only one list (the best performing list) had strictly bodies and no heavy support. Literally every other list with a 4/2 record had a mixture of heavy support and boys. Our mixup lists have the capacity to produce results in a tournament setting in a much more reliable way than pure green tide.
edit: bolded for emphasis. Also: both the GT lists were a mixture.
The top list was Grot spam with Mek Gunz, nobody has said Mek gunz can't be taken but to say that you can take Walkers or almost any other heavy support option besides Mek Gunz/Big Gunz is false. The only aberration beyond those 2 units is Squiggoths and to this day I haven't figured out how a SM gunline didn't kill it turn 1.
But on the subject of Ork ranged options being too expensive...well thats true in a sense, but look at the Big Shoota as an example. S5 Assault 3 no AP range 36. 6pts. this thing does about the same amount of dmg as a Stormbolter but we have to pay 3 times as much. But even if it was a 1pt upgrade what use would it really be beyond a couple of pot shots a turn that slows the game down? 3 Big shootas hit 3 times and wound a marine player twice which inflicts .6 wounds. Don't get me wrong, not bad for 3pt cost, but all youve done is spend 2 minutes rolling dice with almost nothing to show for it I want Ork ranged weapons to stay the same price but BE WORTH TAKING. a Big shoota should be assault 6 or more.
koooaei wrote: The main ork theme is that we are primarily a mellee army without good survivability. And in many cases, without any good delivery methods - like in case of kans or basically anything else in 8-th because transport vehicles are really bad for points. So, your only real option is to make a counter-meta list by spamming one type of unit that will be problematic for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to field kans and be remotely successful with them, you need to take an army of walkers that all move at the same pace and have relatively identical durability parameters. This way your opponent's anti-infantry weapons loose their effectiveness and you can have part of your army reach combat and start doing stuff.
If you want your boyz to be effective, you got to take 100+ of them. This way your opponent's anti-tank will go to waste.
If you take a 'balanced' list, you're screwede because all the opponent's weapons now have targets and since ork's durability per point is not great, you will loose. And since the game doesn't provide enough tactical options, you can't play around it. You just got to make a certain list. And from all the lists that we can currently make, boyz spam is the best. Because even if you face an unfavorable matchup, you can still luck out and get 1-st turn or a charge after deepstrike. Still, there's nothing tactical you can do. You just need luck.
This is demonstrably false. In the LVO only one list (the best performing list) had strictly bodies and no heavy support. Literally every other list with a 4/2 record had a mixture of heavy support and boys. Our mixup lists have the capacity to produce results in a tournament setting in a much more reliable way than pure green tide.
edit: bolded for emphasis. Also: both the GT lists were a mixture.
The top list was Grot spam with Mek Gunz, nobody has said Mek gunz can't be taken but to say that you can take Walkers or almost any other heavy support option besides Mek Gunz/Big Gunz is false. The only aberration beyond those 2 units is Squiggoths and to this day I haven't figured out how a SM gunline didn't kill it turn 1.
But on the subject of Ork ranged options being too expensive...well thats true in a sense, but look at the Big Shoota as an example. S5 Assault 3 no AP range 36. 6pts. this thing does about the same amount of dmg as a Stormbolter but we have to pay 3 times as much. But even if it was a 1pt upgrade what use would it really be beyond a couple of pot shots a turn that slows the game down? 3 Big shootas hit 3 times and wound a marine player twice which inflicts .6 wounds. Don't get me wrong, not bad for 3pt cost, but all youve done is spend 2 minutes rolling dice with almost nothing to show for it I want Ork ranged weapons to stay the same price but BE WORTH TAKING. a Big shoota should be assault 6 or more.
I'm sorry the quote from koooaei looks to me like hes saying, bring all green tide or nothing at all, and that "balanced" doesn't work. I took that to mean, pure green-tide is the best, but it's not. And when considering the LVO performance koooaei is right, as I mentioned in my post, that the top list was pure green tide (53rd) it has no mek guns and brings 90 gretchin. But the remaining 6 or 7 ork lists that did reasonably well brought a mixture. It's pretty clear that a mixture of mek guns, jets, and trukks plus green tide is our current best performing list on average.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: IIRC the 'best' performing ork list at lvo was grot spam that ended around 50 place and was designed to outscore the opponent in a 3 turn match cause the time runs out after the 3-d turn if you play this list.
yeah it was. As I mentioned. But the remaining 6 or 7 lists were not, neither were the two top performing lists in the GT heat 3.
I think we need to clarify what really a 'balanced' list we're talking about is. Cause that might be the cornerstone of understanding why we look at the same things and see different results.
There are different understanding of what a balanced list should look like. Let's specify them and take a couple lists and judge how balanced they are for each of this approaches.
1. Dark eldar raiding party (lots of fast transports full of mostly shooty units).
2. Gman razorback gunline (lots of razorbacks Guilliman to buff them and baublewrap).
3. Greentide (lots of boyz, buff characters and something to score points).
4. A unit mishmash (boyz on foot, something in a trukk, something in a wagon, a couple walkers, bikers, planes...you name it).
One approach is to define balance in terms of what a list can achieve. Can it deal with troops? Can it deal with tough targets? Can it move around to score objectives? Can it survive long enough to hold objectives or withstand the opponent's offence?
- Dark eldar raiding party - Not balanced. Can move around quickly, can kill stuff but is not durable.
- Gman razorback gunline - Balanced. Can kill stuff, is very durable, yet can move across 1/3 of the board when needed due to razorback's significant speed.
- Greentide - Balanced. Can kill stuff, is relatively durable if the opponent doesn't bring too much anti-infantry and thanks to current meta, he's probably more frightened of a leman russ gunline or rippers. Can stick to objects and hold them till the game end at the top of turn 3.
- A unit mishmash - Not Balanced. It's not focused enough and allows the opponent to utilise a variety of weapons that he brings. A lazcannon always has a target, a bolter always has a target. And since durability per point is not amazing across the board, this leads to inability to get things done.
Another approach to balance. Is the unit composition wide enough? Does it cover different possible ways of tactically utilising your army? Would such force make sense in the setting? And in this case we get quite different results.
Alright, so I had conceptually thought of "balanced" as a list building concept (is the unit composition wide enough). For me, it asks "can you bring a variety of units?". Balance for me, is sort of the opposite of "spam" lists.
If we are to look at balance from this perspective, bringing a variety of units is preferable to pure bodies. At the minimum, it should be boyz with some sort of mek support. If you only bring pure green tide, you are just hoping your opponent can not kill you (that sometimes works), but if you bring a variety (especially KMKs) you can pressure the board and use tactics to win.
When considering what the list can achieve, I think the term "balance" is more difficult to parse when considering Ork lists. I would personally say pure green-tide with weirdboy spam is pretty versatile, but I would also say that a mixture of units adds versatility to the army and increase your options in what you can deal with.
I think under most circumstances, a mixture of boyz, stormboyz, kommandos, hq support staff, KMKs, trukks and dakkajets not only shows the most variety in unit options, but also has shown reliable results. Not just in the LVO (where yes, there was ONE player with pure green tide that did very well) but basically in any tournament where a gargantuan squiggoth didn't do well. When I was building my primer I had a REALLY hard time finding pure green-tide lists that were doing well, the one exception was 53rd at LVO.
Tell me if you see any holes but ill tell you what i have been doing with my army. So far this edition i have won most of my games but i attribute a portion to people not understanding the power of boyz. or our army. Everyone seems surprised when i do things.
The Core 2 full as possible boyz squads
1-2 Weirdboyz as points allow
1-6 Mek Gunz KMK style.
Zhadsnark (in 1000pt+)
KFF Big Mek (1250+)
This has been the case in almost all of my games.
The Gravy Third squad of boyz as many as possible, but when shaving points the squad size will not be 30 here. always 20+
Then depending on points / the way i feel i add in tankbustas/Lootas in a trukk or BW
gork or morkanaught (been successful so far but mostly in melee)
sometimes Nobs kitted out with all BC or mix of BC and PK 0-1 squads of gretchin for troop fillout or objectives
My core list im 100% happy with, and forms the base of any army i make, the rest so far has been experimental.
i find having somthing in a trukk doesnt make it too bad a target, normally enemies treat it as a priority similar to the mekk gunz and split fire between the 2 which i love.
That also depends on what did the most work against them, if my lootas had a good round of fire i expect them to get a little more focus. BW almost always takes more fire than the trukk
but has not been killed in 1 turn yet this edition, and pretty good in combat.
I have not kept a tally of wins/losses vs types of armies but im doing well even across repeat opponents who know my army. But im definitely not spamming boyz i couldn't stand it i don't think.
while i dont play in official tournies i playlocal ones and i do quite well, leading me to suspect at this point that unless you need to win and play against the most trimmed and prepared tournament level lists
that you dont need boyz spam to enjoy the army, need more than 7th ed but i think you can take on semi competitive lists fairly well.
This is a good thing i would say, most people playing the game will never see a GT or anything overly official, and i dont quite think the codex is gona make us any less boyz reliant, i hope but i doubt.
My view and experience is that Orks are fine in casual/semi competitive meta.
When, i.e. at what point level, should you consider taking a brigade detachment for an Ork spam list in order to maximize CP’s?
I usually play at 1500 points and then it is not worth it, but now I intend to play a tournament on 1850 points. I posted my list below. It is not far from all the mandatory choices for a brigade, but I still think that it is a too big sacrifice to rebuild the list into a brigade, but I am not sure.
The stratagem MOB UP sounds it can help to have smaller units (in order to fulfill mandatory choices) that still can be good.
Spoiler:
GHAZGHKULL (twin big shoota, kustom klaw, stikkbombs)
WEIRDBOY (Weirdboy staff)
WEIRDBOY (Weirdboy staff)
Warboss (shoota, big choppa, stikkbombs, attack squig)
Nob with waaagh! banner (Waaagh! banner, kustom shoota, stikkbombs)
30 Boys (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
30 Boyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
30 Boyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
29 Boyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
10 Boyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
10 Boyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
30 Stormboyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
30 Stormboyz (slugga, choppa and stikkbombs, nob with big choppa)
Nora wrote: When, i.e. at what point level, should you consider taking a brigade detachment for an Ork spam list in order to maximize CP’s?
I usually play at 1500 points and then it is not worth it, but now I intend to play a tournament on 1850 points. I posted my list below. It is not far from all the mandatory choices for a brigade, but I still think that it is a too big sacrifice to rebuild the list into a brigade, but I am not sure.
The stratagem MOB UP sounds it can help to have smaller units (in order to fulfill mandatory choices) that still can be good.
I wouldn't bother with a brigade below 2500 points. Outside of mob up and CP re-rolls there is not a whole lot you can spend CP on, so it's not worth bringing any choices you normally wouldn't bring.
I have yet to play anything with a brigade, and i don't think i want too, i can get plenty of CP with other detachments and i have no strong drive to play that many models. you can get 7/8 by stacking spearhead/vanguard on top of battalion.
I feel like boyz spam is quickly becoming the ONLY real option for an Orks player in the current meta. There are so many units right now in other armies that have -1 (or more) to hit, that the only way you can have an Ork list that’s guaranteed to be able to cause some damage is boyz spam, preferably with a Waaagh banner. Ork shooting isn’t really an option at the moment. The only reason I have a unit of shootas is because it’s free, they look cool and on the off chance I face an army that lets me hit on even a 6+ during shooting or overwatch they might be worth having as backfield support against deepstriking
I've tried running lists with no shooting and some shooting and come out firmly on the side of some shooting. My current list uses 10 Tankbustas in a Trukk, 15 Lootas and 3 KMKs. Yesterday I stripped 24 wounds off a Baneblade turn 1 just with shooting. Admittedly I got lucky by rolling 8 6's on the Tankbustas whilst using the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem, resulting in 13 hits in total, but the fact is without those shooting units that Baneblade was going to be straight up deleting my stuff the next turn (even with 2 wounds left it actually still did that, but it was my fault for putting my Meganobs too far forward).
In other games against Eldar jetbikes where I didn't have shooting I've just lost because I could never chase them down, or assault them on top of ruins. With shooting units, I've been able to take them out.
Now I must stress that I've never gone up against an army with -1 to hit. We sort of have an agreement in my FLGS not to use it since it's just busted. Mind you our resident Tyranid player has taken to bringing 5 Venomthropes, so that's basically the same. But I've never fought him, and if he asked for a game, I'd decline. There is simply no way to balance -1 to hit, so outside of a tournament setting I'm just not going to play against it because it's not balanced.
I come up against -1 to hit reasonably regularly in my local club, and tbh it's not made a huge difference to me. Because I don't rely on shooting virtually at all, any wounds I inflict before combat are considered a nice bonus.
With huge mobs of slugga choppa Boyz doing the heavy lifting in my lists, it's never really going to impact too much. A nice thing about my club is that the overwhelming majority of the other guys have not faced orks, or a melee focused horde army before so its a nice change for them. Indeed, I've had to go over the rules for combat a number of times with some guys, as they simply have never got into it since 8th dropped. They're learning fast though, and they have come to respect the army very quickly.
However, I do quite like the fact that my opponents feel safer with their -1 to hit in shooting, which has no effect whatsoever inside 12" or in combat, where Orks shine.
Glane wrote: I've tried running lists with no shooting and some shooting and come out firmly on the side of some shooting. My current list uses 10 Tankbustas in a Trukk, 15 Lootas and 3 KMKs. Yesterday I stripped 24 wounds off a Baneblade turn 1 just with shooting. Admittedly I got lucky by rolling 8 6's on the Tankbustas whilst using the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem, resulting in 13 hits in total, but the fact is without those shooting units that Baneblade was going to be straight up deleting my stuff the next turn (even with 2 wounds left it actually still did that, but it was my fault for putting my Meganobs too far forward).
In other games against Eldar jetbikes where I didn't have shooting I've just lost because I could never chase them down, or assault them on top of ruins. With shooting units, I've been able to take them out.
Now I must stress that I've never gone up against an army with -1 to hit. We sort of have an agreement in my FLGS not to use it since it's just busted. Mind you our resident Tyranid player has taken to bringing 5 Venomthropes, so that's basically the same. But I've never fought him, and if he asked for a game, I'd decline. There is simply no way to balance -1 to hit, so outside of a tournament setting I'm just not going to play against it because it's not balanced.
Taking 24 wounds off a baneblade with this kind of shooting is around twice as high as average. But i agree that some shooting is needed to support mellee. Or at least to score backfield.
I saw them at my local GW store some month ago, and the owner complained about them being a pain to paint, as you need to apply a bunch of layers in order to make the MDF structure go away. Besides that, they looked ok. I have seen better scratchbuilds though, and they aren't that much cheaper tham the kromlech stuff, which looks better than most official models: https://bitsofwar.com/home/265-halftrack-inferno-squadron.html
I have one of the Kromlech skorchas and it's a nice, solid resin piece. Certainly worth paying a little more if you can source them locally or Aussie shipping is too bad.
I would definitely rather have a good codex in June than a so-so codex in February.
) and in 2000 you still have more than half your points to play with.
