Coh Magnussen wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The Shokk Attak Gun is one of the few things that I think perhaps ought to be removed from the game all together.

That would make me sad :(. I loves me some snotlings and that's the only remnant of them left in 40K it seems... plus, how can you not love the idea of teleporting a snotling INSIDE those crazy oomie's power armor?

There is nothing wrong with the model or the snotling transportation idea. I just don't like the concept of something that can shoot from across the board while it cannot itself be targeted in retaliation. Secondly, being a static artillery piece does not blend well with the Big Meks regular support functions. Thirdly, units that never moves from where they are deployed tends to lead to a boring game. Maybe they should change the SAG into an actual gretchin teleport device that can fling squads of grots right into CC from across the board. Or maybe let them commandeer enemy vehicles when enough grotlings has been tellyported aboard.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Ok, I've typed this in and deleted it a half-dozen times, but...

I realize that I'm Johnny-come-lately, I have even less experience playing Orks than rvd, and less knowledge than basically anyone else on that thread.

But.

Can we please stop arguing over how good or bad Orks are as compared to other armies, and focus on how to best utilize the units we have? What synergizes well with this or that, and what doesn't?

What's the best way to field my grotz, 20 in a battlewagon or a blob of 30 footslogging?

If I'm going to field some outriders, are Wartrakks worth the extra points over Buggies? What about Skorchas? How about that chinork copta?

The best way to run Grotz? For me you're looking at min squads to sit and hide on objectives and to fill a Brigade/Battalion detachment. Don't invest in a 180 odd pt Battlewagon for them, they are objectively undeserving (unless you have a fluffy reason you want to throw them in there in which case - go wild).

People seem to have done relatively well with Trakks, Buggies and Skorchas. Generally they are considered equally useful from what I've gathered and I think they serve as a nice distraction unit that is relatively point's efficient. Whenever I run them I take Trakks over Buggies every time. 4 pts for an extra Wound and - 2" movement? Deal. Personally I like the idea of Skorchas because burn all da gits! They are less flexible but more killy than their Trakk and Buggy cousins.

The Chinork Kopta is currently massively under priced but I've no doubt GW will correct this mistake soon, I wouldn't go and buy 10 of them or anything just yet. It also has the Forge World price tax. If you have one - use it.

Thanks, English. I don't actually have any official GW or FW vehicles, I was planning to build something like the zeppelins from the tutorials section, and kit it out like a chinork kopta (since it seems to big to be a deffkopta, and too slow to be any of the jets or bommas).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Ok, I've typed this in and deleted it a half-dozen times, but...

I realize that I'm Johnny-come-lately, I have even less experience playing Orks than rvd, and less knowledge than basically anyone else on that thread.

But.

Can we please stop arguing over how good or bad Orks are as compared to other armies, and focus on how to best utilize the units we have? What synergizes well with this or that, and what doesn't?

What's the best way to field my grotz, 20 in a battlewagon or a blob of 30 footslogging?

If I'm going to field some outriders, are Wartrakks worth the extra points over Buggies? What about Skorchas? How about that chinork copta?

The best way to run Grotz? For me you're looking at min squads to sit and hide on objectives and to fill a Brigade/Battalion detachment. Don't invest in a 180 odd pt Battlewagon for them, they are objectively undeserving (unless you have a fluffy reason you want to throw them in there in which case - go wild).

I also use them to fill in the gaps to prevent deepstriking. That's actually very important this edition.

Can grot crew off mek or big gunz be used for that effectively, vitali, or does the requirement to stay with/near the gun prevent that?

i have seen codex armys artillery units gain a new rule where they need to take a moral check if not 6'in from the gun, but for now i park 5 guns around a big mek with KFF and 5 crew, then run the other 20 for the objectives and/or deep strike deny.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can grot crew off mek or big gunz be used for that effectively, vitali, or does the requirement to stay with/near the gun prevent that?

They are a unit, and therefore have to retain unit coherency. When the gun dies, or all the grots die, the unit is destroyed as per the rules, so not, they cannot leave the gun.

About the not trusting FLG: Oh I'm well aware by this point, that FLG(mostly Reece) thinks everything is good. However the clip I linked was factual information from ITC tournament stats.

About the posted tier list: I do not agree with the structure. You're missing half the armies by shoving them into 4th tier. If you actually spread them out, you see that orks are above average.

About "actual astra militarum": love how you mever fail to miss the point. Look at the IG, SM, CSM, ork, nids, etc army lists that are winning. Then look at chaos daemon armies:
Brimstones, changeling, maybe nurglings. Everything else is CSM/DG/TS. There is only 1 actual chaos daemons list that does OK. Nurgle daemons.however now everything got so much better, even they are barelly useable

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can grot crew off mek or big gunz be used for that effectively, vitali, or does the requirement to stay with/near the gun prevent that?

They are a unit, and therefore have to retain unit coherency. When the gun dies, or all the grots die, the unit is destroyed as per the rules, so not, they cannot leave the gun.

This is not true. You set them up at the same time but they become separate units after that. You can leave a 5-man crew with 5 guns and have fun running around with the other 4x 5-man crews.

Ashkayel wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can grot crew off mek or big gunz be used for that effectively, vitali, or does the requirement to stay with/near the gun prevent that?

They are a unit, and therefore have to retain unit coherency. When the gun dies, or all the grots die, the unit is destroyed as per the rules, so not, they cannot leave the gun.

This is not true. You set them up at the same time but they become separate units after that. You can leave a 5-man crew with 5 guns and have fun running around with the other 4x 5-man crews.

Agreed. 5 guns and crew is 10 units total...note that in that case (as per current index rules) it only takes 1 of the grot crews to fire ALL of the guns...the other 20 grots (in 4 crews) can wander around freely.

I apologize sincerely if this has already been addressed. I searched but to no avail. Has anyone used a supreme command detach so you can get 5 weirdboyz to use as a somewhat deep-striking ork army in conjunction with another detachment type?

 Boris420 wrote:
I apologize sincerely if this has already been addressed. I searched but to no avail. Has anyone used a supreme command detach so you can get 5 weirdboyz to use as a somewhat deep-striking ork army in conjunction with another detachment type?

I have run 5-6 Weirdboyz before, but I don't see where the deep-strike comes into it. Regards

pismakron wrote:

 Boris420 wrote:
I apologize sincerely if this has already been addressed. I searched but to no avail. Has anyone used a supreme command detach so you can get 5 weirdboyz to use as a somewhat deep-striking ork army in conjunction with another detachment type?

I have run 5-6 Weirdboyz before, but I don't see where the deep-strike comes into it. Regards

I think he means with regards using da jump as a pseudo deep striking army.

Boris the best lists have 5-6 weirdboyz in a trukk spamming smite to all hell. Lots of people use the supreme command detachment to get them in the a list legally.

You can only cast one Da Jump per turn in matched play.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can we please stop arguing over how good or bad Orks are as compared to other armies, and focus on how to best utilize the units we have? What synergizes well with this or that, and what doesn't?

Yes! Please. Stay on topic please.

My contribution to this:

I had a game yesterday since my eldar arch-nemesis and me found some time for a game and be both agreed on keeping the lists as elite as possible to finish the game within two or three hours. I knew I wasn't going to win the game anyways, so I took some rarely used units for a spin.

My List:


His list (he kindly switched his Alaitoc trait for Ulthwe):


We got the frontline assault deployment and were playing communications lost (you get one objective card per mission objective you're holding).
His fire prisms are sitting one in each corner, everything else is deployed in or around a ruin in the center of his deployment area, with the Autarch sitting on first floor. I deploy big guns to my three objectives, the SAG goes on top of a ruin with a kannon to screen it, one lobba is hidden behind a huge LOS blocking mountain, nob bikers are hidden behind battlewagon, trukks are deployed one on each flank.
He wins the roll-off and goes first, fails to debuff the bikers, smites and shoots his fire prisms, wraith lords and wraithfigher all into the battlewagon, killing it. One mortal wound goes to Grotznik, he saves it. Scatter lasers kill 4 burna boyz, Autarch shoot 3 wounds off the KFF mek.

On my turn, trukks move forward, use DakkaDakkaDakka! on one unit of tank bustaz and shoot one fire prism for 6 damage, he saves 3 of those with Ultwe 6+++. Squigs go towards the wraith lord (can't a target fire prisms), one misses, the other does 5 damage, two of those saved. The other trukk does the same thing minus stratagem on the other side of the table, resulting in 3 damage to the fire prism and two to the wraith lord. One cannon blows another two damage of one prism, the other two miss. Lobbas don't do gak, burnas advance and flame one of the hemlocks for 2 damage. KFF mek and doc follow them. Warboss and nob bikers drive into cover and shoot one of the wraithlords for 3 damage, since nothing else is in range. SAG does 2 damage to the other fire prism, leaving two of them a 6 wounds, just above degration.

His turn. Autarch hits the KFF mek with another missile and kills it. He uses the stratagem to link his fire prisms, re-rolling all to-hit and to-wound rolls and blasting away at the now visible nob bikers, putting13 S9 AP-4 d3 hits into them, plus Wraithlord Brightlances and Scatter Lasers, cause just barely enough damage to kill them all. While it sucked that 250 points were simply deleted, it took some impressive firepower to do so. One hemlock smites a unit of kannon gunners to kill it and destroys a lobba by shooting. The other hemlock fails his smite and shoots a kannon crew dead. He scores 1 VP for killing units in at least two phases and 1 VP for killing a character.

My turn 2, trukks move into grenade/charge range for fire prisms, burna boyz and dok move towards wraithlord A and warboss towards wraithlord B. The lobba-less gretchin crew fails an advance roll to get objective 3, but the remaining kannon crew can conga-line to it with a 9" advance. The first mob of tank bustaz throw a tank busta bomb and rokkits into a fire prism, which manages to leave the damn tank standing with 1 wound left. The other fire prism manages to make spectacular 4 6++ rolls and is down to 5 wounds now. I re-roll a one for SAG shoots into a six and it does a spectacular 5 wounds to wraithlord B. Kannon shot gets saved by wraithlord B, skorchas ping another wound off him, lobba does one more damage. Warboss shooting and big shootas do nothing.
Charge time! Trukk charges and nominates one fire fireprism and the wraithlord B , which is 9" away as targets. The fire prism manages to overwatch with a single lance shot, blowing a whooping 6 damage off the trukk, the shuriken catapult does another one, wraithlord overwatch misses. With 10" charge range I decide to charge the wraithlord to prevent him from overwatching my warboss. The other trukk charges wraithlord A and a fireprism locking both in combat - or so I thought. Bruna boyz charge wraithlord A, doc does a 11" charge (he needed 10") to join the fray, warboss charges wraithlord B.
In combat, the damaged trukk manages to do one damage to wraithlord B, the warboss does 2 mortal wounds and two more from the killchoppa, but one is saved with 6+++, leaving it at 1 life. The wraithlord strikes back, hits the warboss twice despite hitting on 5+, rolls double-sixes for damage and slays the warlord. Buna boyz don't do jack against wraithlord A, Grotznik punches him for 5 damage, two saved again, the trukk does no damage to the fire prism with his wreckin' ball. Wraithlord A destroys the trukk with his sword, no damage to tank bustaz.
I score 1 VP for holding objective 3.

Turn 3 the fire prism falls back, wraithlord A falls back with stratagem to allow him to shoot and charge. All burna boyz but one are killed by a hemlock, Autarch, scatter lasers and 2d6 profile from one fire prism. Tank bustaz from the destroyed trukk are wiped out by another fire prism and wraithlord A. Hemlock smites the last kannon dead and fails to hurt Grotznik with his shooting. Wraithlord A charges Grotznik to kill him, but fails, Grotznik does 2 damage to him. Wraithlord B destroys the trukk he was fighting. Moral kills last burna boy. Eldar score 1 VP for objective 5 and 1 VP for making a unit fail moral. 6:1 for him now.

In my turn, Grotznik falls back towards the Autarch and charges him because he is one scalpel short of a med pack. Lobba kills the fire prism at one wound. SAG blows away wraithlord B, tank bustaz blow up a war walker, charge the other and the Autarch.
Eldar use -1 to hit stratagem on Autarch (-2 with relic), so Grotznik doesn't hit him at all, Autarch kills Grotsnik with his PF. Tank bustaz do some damage to the remaining war walker, who stomps one of them into the ground. 4 Tankbustas outnumber Autarch and the Warwalker on objective 5, so I get to score that for 1 VP

Turn 4 the scatter laser warwalker and Autarch wipe out the tank bustas, one hemlock smites the grot crew screening the SAG and then kills it with shooting, the other kills the lobba crew, fire prisms kill the remaining two grot crews running about. I am wiped out, game ends at 7:2 VP.

So, don't try this at home kids.

My takeaways:
- Wow, burna boyz are terrible. Someone called them "concentrated boyz" in this thread - in my experience they are just less, more expensive boyz. Their shooting is marginal (less range than sluggas), their assault is weak since they only have 2 attacks and no nob and AP-2 is not nearly as good as it sounds since they only do 1 damage. Boyz with a PK nob are simply always better and I will never use them again until they get an update. For 210 point, I should just have fielded a unit of nobz.
- Nob bikers are slightly better than expected. There was no good target for their shooting, but they weathered almost 1000 points of dedicated anti-tank before going down. A lot of damage was lost due to overkill of single models. They definitely compare well to nobz in battlewagons, but those aren't that great in the first place.
- SAG was surprisingly good for just 80 points. Due to AP-5 nothing gets to takes armor saves ever, and it reliably hurt both T8 and T7 models. Spending CPs for low shots is mandatory though. It's not worse at shooting than the same points spent on lootaz, but (obviously) worse than a KMK. With some grot gunners hanging around the mek, no one will bother shooting him. So, if you need another HQ and don't have any more weird boyz, it's an ok choice.
- Dakka stratagem did very little even on tank bustas. One turn I rolled 3 sixes, followed by another two hits. AP-2 mean 5+ saves for vehicles, some more shots fail to wound on 3+ and in the end some more were saved due to that annoying Ulthwe craftworld trait. I barely got two additional damage for 2 CP over the course of two turns.
- Minimum tank bustaz in trukks are actually very good, provided you have other stuff that your opponent wants to shoot with big guns. Definitely better than using open topped battlewagons.
- 'eadwompa's killchoppa is not great against vehicles.
- Being forced to ignore hemlock wraithfighters sucks.

Nice report. Not actually too bad a performance given your list. SAG a surprising impact, good to see. I love em but mine have been shelved a little while after neglible results from them. Price drop will have em back out for some occasional fun, Mek Gunz nearby for screens and repair. #praysforgitfinda

Awesome thanks for clearing that up for me! Darn I wish da jump could be used multiple times in one turn

A question -- why minimum units of tankbusters in the trukk and leaving it with 5 empty seats?

My list of "I must build!" is rapidly growing, but like Cuz I was happy to see a SAG being effective... I really want to field one with my gunz and model his oiler as herding some snotlings to their doom glory.

Yea useful and good report. Lol @ not to bad a performance though, he was tabled and lost heavily on VPs. It couldn't be much worse, particularly when you think about how many Eldar units were left.

I'm surprised that you consider the Nob Bikers to have performed well. They didn't have any impact and were wiped in a single round? Your points would have been better spent on more Boyz, Bustas or even Warbikes I reckon. My main rival is an Ulthwe player too and I find Fire Prisms extremely obnoxious. No saves for our mega expensive Nob Bikers (even on the weakest, spread shot type) and I'm sure the second shot type does a flat 3 damage which is perfect for them? Also the fact that they can just fly out of combat is not fun.

 Jidmah wrote:

- Dakka stratagem did very little even on tank bustas. One turn I rolled 3 sixes, followed by another two hits. AP-2 mean 5+ saves for vehicles, some more shots fail to wound on 3+ and in the end some more were saved due to that annoying Ulthwe craftworld trait. I barely got two additional damage for 2 CP over the course of two turns.

The Dakka dakka stratagem needs roughly 10 Tankbustas before it really starts to shine. It's probably wasted on 5 man squads unless you roll like a god. With a 8 man squad I managed a decent amount of extra hits, so much so that the stratagem was definitely better than just a simple reroll stratagem (which I believe is considered a fair stratagem.)

Should you ever run full 15 Bustas you'll really want to use the stratagem.

DDD stratagem is just really bad. The "re-roll 1 die" is actually better IMO. As you can re-roll on the to-wound/damage roll when you actually need that little bit more damage. If there's anything worth complaining about - it's this. Even in best case scenarios you only get about 6 hits(boyz) or 4 hits(lootas) that STILL need to wound, get saved, etc. Complete waste.

Wow I'm shocked. I agree with rvd1ofakind. Even if you had 18 tankbustas you are only averaging 3 extra shots and 1 extra hit (1.5 against vehicles) in what world is that considered good?

This just further confirms my opinion on most of the units used. Burnas on paper sound good but suck horribly. No dakka and in CC they are weak. Nob bikers and bikers in general are trash and tank bustas are too expensive for what they do and the DDD strategy is worthless. I wrote off the SAG when the index dropped as I did with trukkz.

I'm really hoping the codex does something meaningful because I've about had it with the constant trash GW shoved down our throats.

Yup it is bad, though to be fair the best case is lootas that have been mobbed up to 25 strong (so an extra CP).

If you get 3 shots each(random)that is 75 shots, and it nets you 4 extra hits (boyz net about 3)

Or I guess the super realistic turn 4 loota shooting when you have mobbed up every turn and have a squad of 65 lootas, and then you got 3 shots for 195 shots you would still only get about 10 extra hits.

Your math is off. For 18 Tankbustas you get 3 extra shots for the first batch. Then you reroll all 1-4 meaning 12 dice which will generate 2 more shots. So 5 extra shots with rerolls to hit are going to probably give you about 3 extra hits (can't really be bothered to do the exact math).

I simulated (well rolled actual dice) several batches for 10 Tankbustas and got 2-3 extra hits fairly consistently. Of course YMMV because it's a dice game. But I'm not calling it complete garbage.

 Weazel wrote:
Your math is off. For 18 Tankbustas you get 3 extra shots for the first batch. Then you reroll all 1-4 meaning 12 dice which will generate 2 more shots. So 5 extra shots with rerolls to hit are going to probably give you about 3 extra hits (can't really be bothered to do the exact math).

I simulated (well rolled actual dice) several batches for 10 Tankbustas and got 2-3 extra hits fairly consistently. Of course YMMV because it's a dice game. But I'm not calling it complete garbage.

True I left that out. So let's do the averages against Vehicles, because you don't get rerolls Vs anything else.

18 Bustas on average get about 6 hits and 3 6s. With the rerolls you get 4 more hits and 2 more 6. So 5 extra shots which give you about 2-3 extra hits with rerolls against vehicles.

Still not worth it, especially since you need to use mob up and somehow walk those buggers across the field or buy them a BW

So I don't play orks, ( play nids mainly), but I love to play against them, I have a few for modeling purposes. After the codex drops I may start collecting. Looking at doing a Mechanized Blitzkrieg style list.

Has anyone tried this combo? It requires a warboss, a weirdboy, a mob of boyz, a nob with banner.
Weirdboy cast warpath on unit of boyz +1 attack
Warboss on bike for WAAAGH to allow Boyz to advance and charge.
Army rule already allows Re-roll charges
Boyz move 5" + d6 advance + 2d6 charege (rerollable)
Boyz base Attack 2 WS 3
Boyz 20+ unit get +1 attack, Choppas +1 attack
Nob with banner add +1 to hit in fight phase

Moving 5 + d6 + 2d6 with rerolls (8+9=17" avg)
Hitting on 2's with 5 (2+1+1+1) attacks per model for 30 guys; thats more attacks than Genestealers, but without the rend. 150 attacks is bound to do some damage. Plus you got your pistols you can shoot as well.

Thats pretty nasty combo, though it requires a lot of pieces.

Also, the Dakka dakka dakka, would have been better if its something like the Tyranid Single Minded Annihilation. 2 Cp and shoot twice.

I think the orcs and nids are fairly similar in style, in that they are meant to be horde based melee based armies with shooting support. I would imagine a lot of the clans (chapter tactics) would be similar. (like roll 3d6 take highest on advance, reroll 1 for hitting, wounding in Fight Phase, shooting phase.)

I think something that would give them a -1 to hit would certainly help them close in combat. Maybe a new Pysker spell that wierdboyz cast like a shroud ability.

I would imagine some reinforcement or regeneration unit stratagems as well to represent the endless tide.

Getting some hero/hq that can buff to hit and to wound in shooting might be helpful to push them into more competitive environment. Though, I think Orks are going to be meant to be played as a melee based army.

Some other stragagems that would help I think:

Move and advance a unit again but it cannot chare
Double the units advance dice roll
An ability that make a painboy kill a model to inspire fear, forcing them to move +1" (similar to nids AG).
Pick a unit fight again.

The problem with orcs seems to be their lack of speed for the boys so having stratagems that can get them into assault turn 1 like Nids, BA, and other melee based armies will definitely help.

I know a lot of people complain about shooting being BS5, and I get that, but I don't see GW doing a universal buff of all orcs to increase BS. They might do it for the HQ, Elites and what not, that or have units grant a +1 to hit bubble.

 Dynas wrote:
So I don't play orks, ( play nids mainly), but I love to play against them, I have a few for modeling purposes. After the codex drops I may start collecting. Looking at doing a Mechanized Blitzkrieg style list.

Has anyone tried this combo? It requires a warboss, a weirdboy, a mob of boyz, a nob with banner.
Weirdboy cast warpath on unit of boyz +1 attack
Warboss on bike for WAAAGH to allow Boyz to advance and charge.
Army rule already allows Re-roll charges
Boyz move 5" + d6 advance + 2d6 charege (rerollable)
Boyz base Attack 2 WS 3
Boyz 20+ unit get +1 attack, Choppas +1 attack
Nob with banner add +1 to hit in fight phase

Moving 5 + d6 + 2d6 with rerolls (8+9=17" avg)
Hitting on 2's with 5 (2+1+1+1) attacks per model for 30 guys; thats more attacks than Genestealers, but without the rend. 150 attacks is bound to do some damage. Plus you got your pistols you can shoot as well.

Thats pretty nasty combo, though it requires a lot of pieces.

Also, the Dakka dakka dakka, would have been better if its something like the Tyranid Single Minded Annihilation. 2 Cp and shoot twice.

I think the orcs and nids are fairly similar in style, in that they are meant to be horde based melee based armies with shooting support. I would imagine a lot of the clans (chapter tactics) would be similar. (like roll 3d6 take highest on advance, reroll 1 for hitting, wounding in Fight Phase, shooting phase.)

I think something that would give them a -1 to hit would certainly help them close in combat. Maybe a new Pysker spell that wierdboyz cast like a shroud ability.

I would imagine some reinforcement or regeneration unit stratagems as well to represent the endless tide.

Getting some hero/hq that can buff to hit and to wound in shooting might be helpful to push them into more competitive environment. Though, I think Orks are going to be meant to be played as a melee based army.

Some other stragagems that would help I think:

Move and advance a unit again but it cannot chare
Double the units advance dice roll
An ability that make a painboy kill a model to inspire fear, forcing them to move +1" (similar to nids AG).
Pick a unit fight again.

The problem with orcs seems to be their lack of speed for the boys so having stratagems that can get them into assault turn 1 like Nids, BA, and other melee based armies will definitely help.

I know a lot of people complain about shooting being BS5, and I get that, but I don't see GW doing a universal buff of all orcs to increase BS. They might do it for the HQ, Elites and what not, that or have units grant a +1 to hit bubble.

I don't think BS5+ overall is a problem, I think that the shooty specialist orks being bs 5+ while wearing tissue paper into battle is the problem. ork units like lootas probably should be bs4+ as they are long range specialists, and they should probably have a 4+ so they might survive being shot that or just drop their points by 2/3 and then they would be worth taking. 17 points for what amounts to a T4 model averaging 2 shots and getting 0.66 hits per turn that still need to damage at str 7 ap-1 D2. so on the most common army space marines we wound on 3's so 0.44 wounds average, and they save on a 4+ so lootas get... an average of .22 wounds on a space marine, so to average one kill on a tac marine (13 points) lootas take 85 points (5 lootas). assuming nobody shoots at the lootas and they shoot space marines and the game ends turn 5 they remove 65 points of space marines. In reality they will not perform that well even as they will be shot at, in cover they have a 5+ save and low leadership so they run. This is not even the least points efficient unit we have, just an example of what orks deal with.

on a positive note I had fun in a game using the new mob up with 10 boyz joining a mob of 30 boyz for 2 power claws in a 40 man unit. bike warbss and biker painboy to back them up advanced on a hammer and anvil deployment. weirdboy jumped the ork boyz up, warboss and painboy were close enough to daisy chain up buffs (with 40 not a problem) and while I command pointed one dice I got off a massive multicharge ... it was orks vs guard so it was still a huge loss by turn 3 but getting the one crazy charge was fun.

I just call out BS when I see itr. Be it ork viability or really bad stratagems.
The fact that the precedent is +1 to hit = 1CP and orks get... THAT... ugh...

Coh Magnussen wrote:
A question -- why minimum units of tankbusters in the trukk and leaving it with 5 empty seats?

My list of "I must build!" is rapidly growing, but like Cuz I was happy to see a SAG being effective... I really want to field one with my gunz and model his oiler as herding some snotlings to their doom glory.

Mostly because I didn't want them all on one trukk and I didn't have the points. If you replace burna boyz with boyz the additional points would go to tank bustas.

Dynas, the main problem about the super-buffed choppa boys is the impossibly of attacking on turn 1, and the unlikelyness of an attack on turn 2. By turn 3 they are mostly dead. No other army flat-out is dissalowed 2 full turns of attacking...just non-jumped choppa boys.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Dynas, the main problem about the super-buffed choppa boys is the impossibly of attacking on turn 1, and the unlikelyness of an attack on turn 2. By turn 3 they are mostly dead. No other army flat-out is disallowed 2 full turns of attacking...just non-jumped choppa boys.

Some matches deployments you could possibly get a turn 1 charge with the narrow gaps 18" gaps. Spearhead, Hammer and advil, the center circle one). The others you might get their on turn 2. Depends on where they deploy. Thats why I think the best thing for orks will be to make them faster like BA and Nids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't think BS5+ overall is a problem, I think that the shooty specialist orks being bs 5+ while wearing tissue paper into battle is the problem. ork units like lootas probably should be bs4+ as they are long range specialists, and they should probably have a 4+ so they might survive being shot that or just drop their points by 2/3 and then they would be worth taking. 17 points for what amounts to a T4 model averaging 2 shots and getting 0.66 hits per turn that still need to damage at str 7 ap-1 D2. so on the most common army space marines we wound on 3's so 0.44 wounds average, and they save on a 4+ so lootas get... an average of .22 wounds on a space marine, so to average one kill on a tac marine (13 points) lootas take 85 points (5 lootas). assuming nobody shoots at the lootas and they shoot space marines and the game ends turn 5 they remove 65 points of space marines. In reality they will not perform that well even as they will be shot at, in cover they have a 5+ save and low leadership so they run. This is not even the least points efficient unit we have, just an example of what orks deal with.

on a positive note I had fun in a game using the new mob up with 10 boyz joining a mob of 30 boyz for 2 power claws in a 40 man unit. bike warbss and biker painboy to back them up advanced on a hammer and anvil deployment. weirdboy jumped the ork boyz up, warboss and painboy were close enough to daisy chain up buffs (with 40 not a problem) and while I command pointed one dice I got off a massive multicharge ... it was orks vs guard so it was still a huge loss by turn 3 but getting the one crazy charge was fun.

Your example basically says that BS 5 is the problem. If they have a higher armor save or BS4 then you are going to pay for the chasis for that. The points reduction is probably the simplest answer and easiest fix. Plus cheaper points means you can field more models and thus increase sales. Still though, I don't see orks as a shooting army. The should be closing into melee range asap.

1) I have never ever gotten a a 1 turn charge with footslogging boyz. You can do it with Stormboyz, but not reliably.

2) It is fairly easy to get 200 attacks from a squad of boyz. Mob up for 30+10 boyz, cast warpath and then da-jump them anywhere on the map. If you make that 9" charge you unleash 200 attacks, which is hilarious. If you don't make that charge then you will probably lose 40 boyz. Point for point boyz are the best melee unit in the game. Honourable mentions goes to Genestealers and Bezerkers.

3) Ork boyz should not become faster. They are not OP precisely because they have 5" movement and a 6+ Save. Genestealers are faster, have rending claws and a 5++ save, but they are also twice as expensive as boyz.

4) The DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is pretty bad. It gives any shooting unit precisely 16.7% more damage output, which is nothing special for 1 CP. I still use it regularly though. It is better than nothing which is often the alternative.

5) I am personally fine with BS5+. If every army had BS 3 or 4 then it would almost be a pointless stat to have in the game.

If you got a turn 1 charge with boyz, your opponent helped you. Why would they deploy within range?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea useful and good report. Lol @ not to bad a performance though, he was tabled and lost heavily on VPs. It couldn't be much worse, particularly when you think about how many Eldar units were left.

Well, compared to 7th edition, this game was a walk in the park

I'm surprised that you consider the Nob Bikers to have performed well. They didn't have any impact and were wiped in a single round?

They took three stationary, linked fire prisms, four bright lances and 16 scatter laser shots to the face (all in range for Autarch re-rolls) before they died. That kind of firepower would have taken most lords of war down. So while they didn't do anything, they took surprising amounts of firepower to kill. I'm sure that two units of hellblasters in rapid fire range will casually blow them away without breaking a sweat, but anything in the ork index can easily be wiped in a single round by 800 points of shooting.

Your points would have been better spent on more Boyz, Bustas or even Warbikes I reckon.

I disagree on warbikes (they would have died just as fast, shot the same and been worse in combat), but spending points on boyz is pretty much always the best thing. However, we had no more than 3 hours to get the game in, including setting up the table and packing up, so any army with as little as three units of boyz would have been unable to finish the game. Unlike in tournaments, there is no advantage in calling the game early for friendly games.

My main rival is an Ulthwe player too and I find Fire Prisms extremely obnoxious. No saves for our mega expensive Nob Bikers (even on the weakest, spread shot type) and I'm sure the second shot type does a flat 3 damage which is perfect for them? Also the fact that they can just fly out of combat is not fun.

The second shot does d3 damage, which actually came to bite him more often than not. All of them to at least two hits to kill.

Again, nob bikers are no sleeper awesome unit at all. I would just rate them as "ok" rather than "utter trash, never use". That one would be reserved for burnas. And lobbas.

Your example basically says that BS 5 is the problem. If they have a higher armor save or BS4 then you are going to pay for the chasis for that. The points reduction is probably the simplest answer and easiest fix. Plus cheaper points means you can field more models and thus increase sales. Still though, I don't see orks as a shooting army. The should be closing into melee range asap.

Another person unfamiliar with Orkz pre 6th edition. There's a reason this website is called "dakkadakka" there's a reason that most of the Ork codex is ranged units.

Shoota boyz
Lootas
Flashgitz
Burna boyz
Kanz
Morkanaut
Dakkajet
Burna bommer
Wazbom
Blitzabommer
Battlewagon
Grot tanks
Mek gunz
Big Gunz
Deffkoptas
Warbikes
Buggy
Skorcha
wartrakk
tankbustas

I mean the list is huge. Our only truly CC units are

Boyz
Meganobz
Deff dread
Stormboyz.

Then you have units which are heavily shooty but rely on CC.

Stompa
Gorkanaut
Nobz.

So tell me again how Orkz aren't a shooting army?


Now don't get me wrong, you might be right and GW might be trying to force us into a different direction and the rules writers and model designers haven't caught up yet but going off previous editions and our current index I don't think you are right.

Merry Xmas team, hollow is back for his monthly post! I'm heading to a large tournament late Jan with the new ITC champion missions. I would love some feedback on how you would tune this list, I've not played specifically the champion missions before so anyone with experience in them and how they have impacted your game-play would be much appreciated (especially compared to normal ITC missions or even Maelstrom).

Here's the list:
My general strategy:

Units that must stay:

Other things to discuss:

SemperMortis wrote:

...
So tell me again how Orkz aren't a shooting army?

Very good point actually. So many shooty units that are ruined by horrible BS, especially painful to see how removal of templates has affected orks.

By the way, I propose a separate thread for wishlisting and balance changes. Because this thread's name is pretty misleading - it is about tactics and making use of what we have at the moment, and a lot of people here are discussing how GW should design orks and what makes different units unviable. It'd be great to make a separate thread to make a proper collection of data on various units and what makes them suck, so we can actually send it to GW. I mean a lot of very good arguments and propositions are thrown around here, we certainly could make the use of that.

Call me an idealist, but I think there is a decent chance the GW would listen to a properly compiled list of suggestions. It's not like they make ork rules bad just because, rather they clearly have no idea how orks should function. Dakka stratagem and "X is good this edition!" is a clear indication of that.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea useful and good report. Lol @ not to bad a performance though, he was tabled and lost heavily on VPs. It couldn't be much worse, particularly when you think about how many Eldar units were left.

Haha, yeah. Goes to show how high my expectations were from the Ork list

SemperMortis wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Your math is off. For 18 Tankbustas you get 3 extra shots for the first batch. Then you reroll all 1-4 meaning 12 dice which will generate 2 more shots. So 5 extra shots with rerolls to hit are going to probably give you about 3 extra hits (can't really be bothered to do the exact math).

I simulated (well rolled actual dice) several batches for 10 Tankbustas and got 2-3 extra hits fairly consistently. Of course YMMV because it's a dice game. But I'm not calling it complete garbage.

True I left that out. So let's do the averages against Vehicles, because you don't get rerolls Vs anything else.

18 Bustas on average get about 6 hits and 3 6s. With the rerolls you get 4 more hits and 2 more 6. So 5 extra shots which give you about 2-3 extra hits with rerolls against vehicles.

Still not worth it, especially since you need to use mob up and somehow walk those buggers across the field or buy them a BW

You really don't want to shoot at anything but vehicles with TANKbustas if you have a choice. Obviously the viability of the stratagem plummets if no rerolls are available. And after you use the gem you still have reroll stratagem available for wounding. Now I'm not saying it's a great stratagem but I'm saying that it is a viable one. Sure you can whiff your rolls and get 0 extra hits or you may get 5 extra hits if you roll well. With the reroll stratagem you get ONE reroll and you can still whiff that so I'm saying for 1CP the Dakka stratagem is usable on Tankbustas (probably about 8 guys or more) when shooting at vehicles. You're not going to convince me otherwise which I'm sure is mutual.

hollow one wrote:
The units on my list that I think are the first to go, are the waagh banner, the painboy on bike (maybe dok grotsnik + walking painboy?), and the tankbustas, maybe even the big mek (it might just be better to bring two more KMK's for example). I actually don't think adding more boyz will improve this list substantially, but I am open to suggestions.

I would definitely get Mad Dok Grotsnik instead of the biker pain boy. He has the same offensive power as a PK warboss, brings the pain boy aura and you can use One Scapel Short of Medpack to disengage from combat and charge again on the same turn. His 4+/5+++/6+++ (you can make him your warlord for a fourth save) allows him to take on enemies that would kill a warboss in single turn. I have been very impressed with him so far and bring him every game I manage to fit him in.

1) What value is there in bringing a trukk purely to reduce your drop count? How vulnerable does that make your HQ if there is no LOS, is that worth it? I understand that with my list I could use the trukk for tankbustas as well, also worth noting. I think the average drop count is 12 for a 2k army list, do you personally care about that info? How does that modify your build?

Since it's now only a +1 to see who goes first, the only real change to my lists is splitting up big gunz and mek gunz as little as possible. I wouldn't waste 85 points on a trukk just to reduce drops.

2) Do weirdboyz and tankbustas serve the same purpose in our army (high ap, high damage, medium range)? How many weirboyz do you need before you start caring about the new beta smite rule? Do you personally care about having high ap (are KMKs enough?), or do you lean toward resiliency in bringing more bodies and forget about killing big gak?

Weird boyz also serve as our only anti-air, only way to reliably damage things with good saves and lots of wounds. Tank bustas only shine when shooting vehicles, if you need to take down monsters, battle suits, characters or other things that have profiles like vehicles, but without the vehicle keyword, they are lot less great. The KMB is better at killing targets with good saves and lots of wounds, but does worse against to hit modifiers and stuff that's deployed in a corner or out of sight since it cannot move.
IMO its pretty much a toss up between the three, with tank bustas being the odd man due to their low survivability compared to their high point cost.

3) Exactly who should wear our relic? Is it worth bringing a warboss purely for it? That would include more versatile charging and thus greater board control. Right now my only eligible character is my Big Mek, but he often stays at home with the KMKs.

If you math it out, it's slightly better against hard targets than a PK and excels at wiping out basic infantry due to him hitting on 2+ and each six to wound killing d3 enemy models. If you have a warboss, he should always take it since its superior to the PK and costs less. If you have points to spare, I would put it on the big mek, but I wouldn't bring a character just to field it.

4) How would you personally play against Magnus/horrors? What in your list works really well? What strategy do you typically employ? Do you bother to attempt to kill Magnus (you probably cant)? Does that Magnus list exist, now that smite has been nerfed? I've never played against Mortarion, is he easier to kill or a greater threat than Magnus? Feels like he would deal substantially more damage than Magnus vs green tide.

I have not faced Magnus, but horrors are already pretty much unable to smite. I doubt the nerf had a huge impact on that.
Mortarion feels impossible to kill unless pile all the rokkits, kannons, kmk and smite on him you have. If he buffs himself with -1 to hit you can do little but watch while he deletes a mob of 30 every turn, as 18 damage past 3+/4++/5+++ and T7 is hard to do. He will eventually die, but maybe just kill everything else might be easier. This experience is taken from fighting him in a pure DG lists with just warptime sorcerers added.

5) What single weapon/unit are you most afraid of? For me right now, gilly gunlines or imperial gunlines are not the most fun (have to play heavily into objectives), but what really hurts are Stormravens. I have a lot of trouble clearing them with KMK's, I can't really charge them if they are smart, and they mow down green tide. One Stormraven is managable, but two to three will almost certainly table me.

I agree and extend that to pretty much all fliers that act similar - you cannot do anything about them and they pick whatever they want to delete each turn.

6) What single unit in the Ork army best capitalises on the recent changes and subsequent meta shift? I personally think the changes in smite and conscripts will see a rise in elites across the board. On the one hand that means boyz will have greater staying power, but we will kill less points per game (our ap sucks). I think the Painboy fits this potential meta very well, constant heals on weirboyz/boyz and probably our best unit carrying a PK.

The skorcha buggy I guess? The only big change is that we are throwing out the BC and take PKs again, the net gain is marginal. I also think that orks will most likely ignore the smite nerf - you can even try to benefit from it and cast smites of weird boyz with lots of boyz around them last to make explosions less likely.


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 JawRippa wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

...
So tell me again how Orkz aren't a shooting army?

Very good point actually. So many shooty units that are ruined by horrible BS, especially painful to see how removal of templates has affected orks.

Ironically, many of those units have had that BS since 4th edition. In 5th you could easily outshoot the 5th necron codex with orks using kannons, lootas (elite back then), dakka jets, shoota boyz and koptas - in fact, you had to, since there was a necron list which basically killed your models if they moved.

By the way, I propose a separate thread for wishlisting and balance changes. Because this thread's name is pretty misleading - it is about tactics and making use of what we have at the moment, and a lot of people here are discussing how GW should design orks and what makes different units unviable. It'd be great to make a separate thread to make a proper collection of data on various units and what makes them suck, so we can actually send it to GW. I mean a lot of very good arguments and propositions are thrown around here, we certainly could make the use of that.

I adjusted the thread title to make it more clear

Call me an idealist, but I think there is a decent chance the GW would listen to a properly compiled list of suggestions. It's not like they make ork rules bad just because, rather they clearly have no idea how orks should function. Dakka stratagem and "X is good this edition!" is a clear indication of that.

Well, someone needs to do the work. I personally can't do that because I simply don't have the time. I'm willing to contribute though.

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, compared to 7th edition, this game was a walk in the park

Lol fair point and agreed.

They took three stationary, linked fire prisms, four bright lances and 16 scatter laser shots to the face (all in range for Autarch re-rolls) before they died. That kind of firepower would have taken most lords of war down. So while they didn't do anything, they took surprising amounts of firepower to kill. I'm sure that two units of hellblasters in rapid fire range will casually blow them away without breaking a sweat, but anything in the ork index can easily be wiped in a single round by 800 points of shooting.

I feel like you were somewhat lucky here. 3 Fire Prisms that move less than half I think would do some serious damage with average rolls using the appropriate shot type even without autarch support or linking.

2d6 shots x 3 = 21 shots average
14 hits average
9(.333) wounds
No saves = 3 dead Nob bikers.

If they have guide/autarchs support and the Nob bikers are doomed forget about it - with average rolling that should be all she wrote. They ain't cheap units even base, then the the price flies up if you add power klaws and big choppas to the mix.

Don't fall in to the trap of believing Nob bikes to be a tough unit. They just aren't without an inherent invulnerable, FNP or ammo runt ablative wound. They are also real expensive (for Orks) and let's be honest, no-one is scared of 1 or 2 Nob bikers running around the field. Power klaws or not.

I disagree on warbikes (they would have died just as fast, shot the same and been worse in combat), but spending points on boyz is pretty much always the best thing. However, we had no more than 3 hours to get the game in, including setting up the table and packing up, so any army with as little as three units of boyz would have been unable to finish the game. Unlike in tournaments, there is no advantage in calling the game early for friendly games.

The thing with warbikes is - you'd have had more of them, because they cost 27 ppm instead of 42. Since you get to throw a Nob in for that cost you actually get for 81 pts instead of 126 the following difference; 2 less wounds, 2 less attacks, 1 less strength on the 4 Boyz attacks, 6 lost shoota shots (that should always be put on Nob bikers for free). That's it. I don't understand why anyone would take Nob Bikers over more Warbikes since Warbikes are just as shooty really.

Strangely and kinda linked to the current discussion Semper's having - both biker units are primary shooting units. They are costed with 6 x str 5 (AP 0 is bogus) shots a piece and you're not gonna use those shots if you're stuck in cqc. For this reason I wouldn't recommend spending too much on Klaws and other cqc weapons on your Nob bikers if you're intent on taking them. And only take them with KFF on Bike (I've found Painboy on Bike to be a waste).

, nob bikers are no sleeper awesome unit at all. I would just rate them as "ok" rather than "utter trash, never use". That one would be reserved for burnas. And lobbas.

The reason for me why they are unfortunately in the "utter trash" category is because warbikes do everything they do better and more cost effective. I only ever take them for fluff reasons and they've always felt like a points sink.

I agree with the Englishman on the nob warbiker deal, in fact I'd be even more brutal and just say all warbikers are unplayable. Compare 6 warbikers (162 points) to one dakka jet (148 w/ 6 SupaS) if you're looking at dakka. You'll be ahead 1 wound and 3 average shots landed, but you trade a worse weapon (-18' range, -1str, -1ap), -1T, less mobility, and no -1 to hit. Plus the bikers cost 14 more points, can be charged, and are vulnerable to morale. And even then dakka jets are considered marginal, where to warbikers really sit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Weird boyz also serve as our only anti-air, only way to reliably damage things with good saves and lots of wounds. Tank bustas only shine when shooting vehicles, if you need to take down monsters, battle suits, characters or other things that have profiles like vehicles, but without the vehicle keyword, they are lot less great. The KMB is better at killing targets with good saves and lots of wounds, but does worse against to hit modifiers and stuff that's deployed in a corner or out of sight since it cannot move.
IMO its pretty much a toss up between the three, with tank bustas being the odd man due to their low survivability compared to their high point cost.

So I agree with what you're saying here, although I think the ability to jump tankbustas is something you might be overlooking. Maybe that's where they shine compared to the others. But regardless, we agree that heavy flyers are our biggest enemy, so are painboy/weirdboy combos essential moving forward? Feels like the only way to battle Mortarion as well. We can get the bodies we need to charge up smites with KMKs, maybe green-tide is not essential. The only army that can still reliably smite spam is something worth considering.

hollow one wrote:
I agree with the Englishman on the nob warbiker deal, in fact I'd be even more brutal and just say all warbikers are unplayable. Compare 6 warbikers (162 points) to one dakka jet (148 w/ 6 SupaS) if you're looking at dakka. You'll be ahead 1 wound and 3 average shots landed, but you trade a worse weapon (-18' range, -1str, -1ap), -1T, less mobility, and no -1 to hit. Plus the bikers cost 14 more points, can be charged, and are vulnerable to morale. And even then dakka jets are considered marginal, where to warbikers really sit.

Yea I'm with you in that Warbikes aren't very good either, they have one thing over DakkaJet though - "Boots on the Ground". Although there are probably better options for grabbing objectives - I play Evil Sunz so I'll be damned if I don't use Bikes and/or Trukks, regardless of how awful they are. Just gotta make the most of them. Nob bikes are slightly worse than Warbikes IMO so I use them instead. I'm gonna use more Buggies, Trakks and Skorchas but I hate the models I have, they don't go with the rest of the army at all soooo here's hoping for new models soon.

Nob Bikers might be the only place kustom shootas make sense.

Regular warbikes get 6 shots each for 27 points - 4.5 points per shot

Nob bikers with shootas get 8 shots for 42 points - 5.25 points each

Nob bikers with kustom shootas get 10 shots for 46 points -4.6 points per shot.

At that point they are about even with regular bikers though 4 of those shots are only S4.

SO 3 biker nobz with kustom shootas are 138 points for 30 shots, 9 wounds, 12 Attacks

For the ~ same cost(135) you get 5 warbikes also 30 shots, though all S5 in this case, 11 wounds, 16 attacks

So even best case the warbikes come out a bit better. Both units shooting and charging

Nobz get 30 S 5 attacks (shots and close combat) and 12 S4 attacks

Warbikes get 34 S 5 attacks, and 12 S4 attacks.

pismakron wrote:

4) The DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is pretty bad. It gives any shooting unit precisely 16.7% more damage output, which is nothing special for 1 CP. I still use it regularly though. It is better than nothing which is often the alternative.

The expectation for damage output is strictly lower than that, you're forgetting that you still have to roll after you generate the extra attack. For example, assuming no modifiers or special rules at BS5+ you'd expect to land 1/3 hits. If you apply dakka dakka dakka to that unit you only generate 1/18 more hits. Re-rolls improve it slightly and +/- modifiers to rolls have a more significant impact on the result.

Quackzo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) The DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is pretty bad. It gives any shooting unit precisely 16.7% more damage output, which is nothing special for 1 CP. I still use it regularly though. It is better than nothing which is often the alternative.

The expectation for damage output is strictly lower than that, you're forgetting that you still have to roll after you generate the extra attack. For example, assuming no modifiers or special rules at BS5+ you'd expect to land 1/3 hits. If you apply dakka dakka dakka to that unit you only generate 1/18 more hits. Re-rolls improve it slightly and +/- modifiers to rolls have a more significant impact on the result.

A 16.7% increase in number of attacks will lead to a 16.7% increase in hits which will result in a 16.7 increase of damages. Regardless of BS.

pismakron wrote:

Quackzo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) The DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is pretty bad. It gives any shooting unit precisely 16.7% more damage output, which is nothing special for 1 CP. I still use it regularly though. It is better than nothing which is often the alternative.

The expectation for damage output is strictly lower than that, you're forgetting that you still have to roll after you generate the extra attack. For example, assuming no modifiers or special rules at BS5+ you'd expect to land 1/3 hits. If you apply dakka dakka dakka to that unit you only generate 1/18 more hits. Re-rolls improve it slightly and +/- modifiers to rolls have a more significant impact on the result.

A 16.7% increase in number of attacks will lead to a 16.7% increase in hits which will result in a 16.7 increase of damages. Regardless of BS.

no. a 16.7% increase in attacks results in 5.5% increase of hits because of orks hitting on 5+. Dakkadakkadakka would work more efficiently in any other army that shoots better.

Let's take out unit that has the most shots in the index, nob bikers. 10 nob bikers all armed with shootas outputs 100 shots (60 for the bike guns and 40 from the shootas). Using dakkadakkadakka, we get around 17 extra shots as we roll around 17 6's. That gives you about 6 extra hits, not worth it at all in my opinion.

exceptions may include tankbustas because of re-rolls and possibly lootas because the extra shots also give the benefit of AP and 2 damage.

SemperMortis wrote:

Your example basically says that BS 5 is the problem. If they have a higher armor save or BS4 then you are going to pay for the chasis for that. The points reduction is probably the simplest answer and easiest fix. Plus cheaper points means you can field more models and thus increase sales. Still though, I don't see orks as a shooting army. The should be closing into melee range asap.

Another person unfamiliar with Orkz pre 6th edition. There's a reason this website is called "dakkadakka" there's a reason that most of the Ork codex is ranged units.

Shoota boyz
Lootas
Flashgitz
Burna boyz
Kanz
Morkanaut
Dakkajet
Burna bommer
Wazbom
Blitzabommer
Battlewagon
Grot tanks
Mek gunz
Big Gunz
Deffkoptas
Warbikes
Buggy
Skorcha
wartrakk
tankbustas

I mean the list is huge. Our only truly CC units are

Boyz
Meganobz
Deff dread
Stormboyz.

Then you have units which are heavily shooty but rely on CC.

Stompa
Gorkanaut
Nobz.

So tell me again how Orkz aren't a shooting army?


Now don't get me wrong, you might be right and GW might be trying to force us into a different direction and the rules writers and model designers haven't caught up yet but going off previous editions and our current index I don't think you are right.

Just because something can shoot, doesn't make it should be a shooting army. Shooting armies are guilliman gunline, guard, tau, etc... I hope GW makes any list type viable. Field a swarm list, a shooty list, an assault list, a mechanized list, a flier list, etc....
yeah they have gak BS thats so bad it hard to hit. To make them competitive what would be the fix? Increase BS ? Increase shots? Increase range? Lower points?

Nuck Fewton wrote:
no. a 16.7% increase in attacks results in 5.5% increase of hits because of orks hitting on 5+. Dakkadakkadakka would work more efficiently in any other army that shoots better.

Let's take out unit that has the most shots in the index, nob bikers. 10 nob bikers all armed with shootas outputs 100 shots (60 for the bike guns and 40 from the shootas). Using dakkadakkadakka, we get around 17 extra shots as we roll around 17 6's. That gives you about 6 extra hits, not worth it at all in my opinion.

exceptions may include tankbustas because of re-rolls and possibly lootas because the extra shots also give the benefit of AP and 2 damage.

100 shots will yield 33.3 hits at 5+ BS. With DakkaDakkaDakka you get 116.7 shots which yields 38.8 hits. That is an 16.7% increase in number of shots as well as a 16.7% increase in number of hits.

 Dynas wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Your example basically says that BS 5 is the problem. If they have a higher armor save or BS4 then you are going to pay for the chasis for that. The points reduction is probably the simplest answer and easiest fix. Plus cheaper points means you can field more models and thus increase sales. Still though, I don't see orks as a shooting army. The should be closing into melee range asap.

Another person unfamiliar with Orkz pre 6th edition. There's a reason this website is called "dakkadakka" there's a reason that most of the Ork codex is ranged units.

Shoota boyz
Lootas
Flashgitz
Burna boyz
Kanz
Morkanaut
Dakkajet
Burna bommer
Wazbom
Blitzabommer
Battlewagon
Grot tanks
Mek gunz
Big Gunz
Deffkoptas
Warbikes
Buggy
Skorcha
wartrakk
tankbustas

I mean the list is huge. Our only truly CC units are

Boyz
Meganobz
Deff dread
Stormboyz.

Then you have units which are heavily shooty but rely on CC.

Stompa
Gorkanaut
Nobz.

So tell me again how Orkz aren't a shooting army?


Now don't get me wrong, you might be right and GW might be trying to force us into a different direction and the rules writers and model designers haven't caught up yet but going off previous editions and our current index I don't think you are right.

Just because something can shoot, doesn't make it should be a shooting army. Shooting armies are guilliman gunline, guard, tau, etc... I hope GW makes any list type viable. Field a swarm list, a shooty list, an assault list, a mechanized list, a flier list, etc....
yeah they have gak BS thats so bad it hard to hit. To make them competitive what would be the fix? Increase BS ? Increase shots? Increase range? Lower points?

low BS is only part of the equation, durability is the other. GW could fix things multiple ways. give better armor saves for some units. example a ork battlewagon has a worse save than a rhino because... reasons? a land raider gets a 2+ but the ork vehicle a 4+ , hits 1/2 as much and worse weapons. this would be fine if a battlewagon were appropriately cost, a BW is 165 min vs a 365 land raider. if you gave the BW a 3+ armor save and a small reduction in points great. give the BW a 2+ and a points in crease then party on. leave armor a 4+ , points the same, and increase ballistic skill or number of shots to make it points appropriate, awesome! current issues are a lot of our shooting units are not even close to worth their points we used to be able to tie up units in assaults previous editions, but now they fall back and shoot us with other units, and then keep falling back every turn. Hell guard gets to receive orders to get back in the fight and still shoot after falling back.

Another example biker boys are way overcosted. GW could drop the points and call it a day or do something to make them more durable/offensive. give em an extra wound and they might be ok would have to play test. give them more shots and/or a longer movement might work. Bring back the old smoke rule where they get +1 to save might also be cool, fluffy and go towards fixing them. ultimately GW will be figuring out what they want to do I just hope they don't mess it up.

I don't think just dropping points or increasing our durability is going to help fix the biggest and most glaring issue with our units that have access to ranged weapons - they literally can't fire at some things.

This isn't fun and as I understand it is contrary to their design intention with 8th. From what I understood they didn't want units "unable to act" in a given phase (hence the always wound anything on a 6).

They need to make Orks' shooting either go no worse than 6+ to hit against any units or have us immune to ranged modifiers. There should never be a situation where our units can't act in a given phase. It is extremely poor design.

Once they've sorted that out they can start to cost our units appropriately. Particularly the worst offenders such as our transports, bikes and generally any units with a ranged focus. We pay a 'decent melee' tax for units that will 99 times out of 100 never use it. Take it out and price our units better. My Lootas don't need to be beefcakes in melee, they are ranged specialists.

hollow one wrote:
I tend to deploy the tankbustas in LOS and first turn jump suicide them. I find this means I don't need a trukk for them. This play nets me their points in damage on average (not including the weirdboy), and I think the bomb squig in this strategy is the best use of a command point we have in the game.

Be sure to let us know how this went! I was thinking about similar thing, but I think that that idea would be frawned upon here in this thread ^^'

That is correct...16% increase in all output measures. The reason this is bad is that orks are way, way overcosted for their output. 16% of a pittance is negligible.

Azhday wrote:

hollow one wrote:
I tend to deploy the tankbustas in LOS and first turn jump suicide them. I find this means I don't need a trukk for them. This play nets me their points in damage on average (not including the weirdboy), and I think the bomb squig in this strategy is the best use of a command point we have in the game.

Be sure to let us know how this went! I was thinking about similar thing, but I think that that idea would be frawned upon here in this thread ^^'

I've been playing this list for months, I do this strategy a lot. I think it's very effective, sometimes I come out with a tank death a pretty good distraction. I'll jump 18' away in a corner that the enemy either doesn't want to be in, or in an awkward LOS spot that only a few things can shoot at, or if I have no good opportunities i'll jump 9' away and attempt a charge. But some games they just miss and die. On average I think they pay for themselves and soften/kill a target i would never be able to kill otherwise.

pismakron wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:
no. a 16.7% increase in attacks results in 5.5% increase of hits because of orks hitting on 5+. Dakkadakkadakka would work more efficiently in any other army that shoots better.

Let's take out unit that has the most shots in the index, nob bikers. 10 nob bikers all armed with shootas outputs 100 shots (60 for the bike guns and 40 from the shootas). Using dakkadakkadakka, we get around 17 extra shots as we roll around 17 6's. That gives you about 6 extra hits, not worth it at all in my opinion.

exceptions may include tankbustas because of re-rolls and possibly lootas because the extra shots also give the benefit of AP and 2 damage.

100 shots will yield 33.3 hits at 5+ BS. With DakkaDakkaDakka you get 116.7 shots which yields 38.8 hits. That is an 16.7% increase in number of shots as well as a 16.7% increase in number of hits.

you're doing your math right, just reading it wrong. so 100 shots is 33 hits (makes sense, orks hit 1/3 of the time). 38 hits is a 5% increase over the initial 100 shots.

Think of it this way. However many shots you get divided by 6 (=the number of 6s you get) then divided by 3 (average ork shooting) = 5.5%

again, a 5.5% increase in hits isn't worth 1cp to me.

pismakron wrote:

Quackzo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

4) The DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is pretty bad. It gives any shooting unit precisely 16.7% more damage output, which is nothing special for 1 CP. I still use it regularly though. It is better than nothing which is often the alternative.

The expectation for damage output is strictly lower than that, you're forgetting that you still have to roll after you generate the extra attack. For example, assuming no modifiers or special rules at BS5+ you'd expect to land 1/3 hits. If you apply dakka dakka dakka to that unit you only generate 1/18 more hits. Re-rolls improve it slightly and +/- modifiers to rolls have a more significant impact on the result.

A 16.7% increase in number of attacks will lead to a 16.7% increase in hits which will result in a 16.7 increase of damages. Regardless of BS.

Yeah that's my bad for posting half asleep, I misread your post a bit and I should of said less than or equal. 16.7% is the upper bound without modifiers to hits. In the base case of no modifiers or ability then you get equality, which the original case I posted is an example of (woops).
In the case that you add or subtract to hit rolls you scale the upper bound, I think that one is pretty clear though.
In the case that you get re-rolls you're getting less than 16.7%. Tankbustas will land 5/9 of their hits against vehicles, and dakka dakka dakka will add 5/81 more hits. If you assumed a flat increase of 1/6 then that would of been an extra 5/54 hits. In percentages the total expected hits would be 61.7%, while if you assumed a flat increase you get 64.8%. In this case its only a 3% difference but in some of the more complex cases, i.e flash gitz, the gap can widen more significantly.

 JimOnMars wrote:
That is correct...16% increase in all output measures. The reason this is bad is that orks are way, way overcosted for their output. 16% of a pittance is negligible.

16.7% extra shooting output out of a single unit is a pretty lousy use of a CP even for shooty armies. If I remember correctly, the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is a word-for-word copy of the space marine bolter drill stratagem, which I am not seeing used much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nuck Fewton wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:
no. a 16.7% increase in attacks results in 5.5% increase of hits because of orks hitting on 5+. Dakkadakkadakka would work more efficiently in any other army that shoots better.

Let's take out unit that has the most shots in the index, nob bikers. 10 nob bikers all armed with shootas outputs 100 shots (60 for the bike guns and 40 from the shootas). Using dakkadakkadakka, we get around 17 extra shots as we roll around 17 6's. That gives you about 6 extra hits, not worth it at all in my opinion.

exceptions may include tankbustas because of re-rolls and possibly lootas because the extra shots also give the benefit of AP and 2 damage.

100 shots will yield 33.3 hits at 5+ BS. With DakkaDakkaDakka you get 116.7 shots which yields 38.8 hits. That is an 16.7% increase in number of shots as well as a 16.7% increase in number of hits.

you're doing your math right, just reading it wrong. so 100 shots is 33 hits (makes sense, orks hit 1/3 of the time). 38 hits is a 5% increase over the initial 100 shots.

Think of it this way. However many shots you get divided by 6 (=the number of 6s you get) then divided by 3 (average ork shooting) = 5.5%

again, a 5.5% increase in hits isn't worth 1cp to me.

It is not a 5.5% increase in hits. It is a 16.7 % increase in hits.

Can we agree that double the amount of shots leads to double the amount of hits and double the amount of damage? Well, the same is true of a 16.7% increase in shots: it leads to a 16.7 % increase in hits and damage done. No more, no less.

Yes, 16.7% increase in shots is the same as 16.7% increase in hits which is the same increase for damage. The problem with the stratagem is a negligible increase on an already negligible amount of damage anyway.

Let's break down the difference of 30 Shoota Boyz vs Tacticals;

No DakkaDakkaDakka;
20 Hits
10 Wounds
3.333 Damage

With DakkaDakkaDakka;
23.333 Hits
11.665 Wounds
3.8833 Damage

So for 1 CP you might kill an extra Tactical. Woop de fething do.

Of course the less shots/lack of rerolls/lack of positive to hit modifiers the worse the stratagem functions, which makes it even less appealing.

For this stratagem to be worthwhile, our shooting needs to be worthwhile in the first place. Unfortunately with our lack of AP, lack of access to rerolls, lack of access to positive modifiers and all the negative to hit modifiers flying about this simply isn't the case.

I feel like the 'reward' for hitting with Ork weapons just isn't there. When you manage the miracle rolls it still feels "meh" and your opponent just often shrugs as they roll a load of saves.

pismakron wrote:
If I remember correctly, the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is a word-for-word copy of the space marine bolter drill stratagem, which I am not seeing used much.

Bolter Drill only works on bolt weapons, whereas DakkaDakkaDakka works on any ranged weapon. So it's easy to see why a developer who didn't know much about Orks would look at it and think "Well obviously it wouldn't be as good for Orks since they have lower BS, but if I make it work on any ranged weapon, and Orks can field big units all with ranged weapons, it'll be good!"

And yes, if that's as far as you thought it, it would be decent. Because the theme of Orks has for ages been "bad shots, but tons of shots". Somewhere along the way though the "tons of shots" got handed off to Imperial armies, whilst the "bad shots" remained. The twin-linked change was responsible for a lot of that, but there were others too. Orks should have been the faction who got weapons like the Punisher Gattling Cannon first. I remember when the stats for that thing first leaked back in 5th and people were losing their minds. Heavy 20?! That's gotta be a misprint right? Holy hell it's REAL?! And then Orks get a big walker with a giant multi-barrelled gattling gun on it and it has....3D6 shots. Even at it's absolute maximum output, it has 2 less shots than the Punisher. And that was because another design decision was that Orks should be random, and that's still with us today.

Then you take into account ranged units being overpriced, lacking survivability, cover being nerfed for Orks, transports being overpriced and blast weapons being nerfed into the ground for Orks and you see the rest of the picture. Again, that's only clear to someone who really understands the faction, and the fact that DakkaDakkaDakka was pushed out as one of the two stratagems to tide us over to the codex makes me quite certain that the person who wrote it is not an Ork fan. Doesn't mean they hate Orks, just that they're not a fan of the particular army, and so they don't really understand their issues. I'd be the same if someone asked me to make a Dark Eldar stratagem; they go fast right, and like inflicting pain or something?

Which is why I don't have any hope for our codex. Unless you have someone writing it who is a fan of the army, we're going to get something entirely unsatisfactory.

 Glane wrote:

pismakron wrote:
If I remember correctly, the DakkaDakkaDakka stratagem is a word-for-word copy of the space marine bolter drill stratagem, which I am not seeing used much.

Bolter Drill only works on bolt weapons, whereas DakkaDakkaDakka works on any ranged weapon. So it's easy to see why a developer who didn't know much about Orks would look at it and think "Well obviously it wouldn't be as good for Orks since they have lower BS, but if I make it work on any ranged weapon, and Orks can field big units all with ranged weapons, it'll be good!"

And yes, if that's as far as you thought it, it would be decent. Because the theme of Orks has for ages been "bad shots, but tons of shots". Somewhere along the way though the "tons of shots" got handed off to Imperial armies, whilst the "bad shots" remained. The twin-linked change was responsible for a lot of that, but there were others too. Orks should have been the faction who got weapons like the Punisher Gattling Cannon first. I remember when the stats for that thing first leaked back in 5th and people were losing their minds. Heavy 20?! That's gotta be a misprint right? Holy hell it's REAL?! And then Orks get a big walker with a giant multi-barrelled gattling gun on it and it has....3D6 shots. Even at it's absolute maximum output, it has 2 less shots than the Punisher. And that was because another design decision was that Orks should be random, and that's still with us today.

Then you take into account ranged units being overpriced, lacking survivability, cover being nerfed for Orks, transports being overpriced and blast weapons being nerfed into the ground for Orks and you see the rest of the picture. Again, that's only clear to someone who really understands the faction, and the fact that DakkaDakkaDakka was pushed out as one of the two stratagems to tide us over to the codex makes me quite certain that the person who wrote it is not an Ork fan. Doesn't mean they hate Orks, just that they're not a fan of the particular army, and so they don't really understand their issues. I'd be the same if someone asked me to make a Dark Eldar stratagem; they go fast right, and like inflicting pain or something?

Which is why I don't have any hope for our codex. Unless you have someone writing it who is a fan of the army, we're going to get something entirely unsatisfactory.

This is what i have been saying all along, orks cant be "fixed" in 8th.
The way that cover, hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

Azhday wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

It depends on what you want to transport. The battlewagon is for transporting Nobz and Choppa-boyz. A hard-top is mandatory and the deff-rolla can be useful. No guns on the wagon, they are a waste of points.

The trukk is for transporting shoota-boyz or tankbustas. If you need your battlewagon to be open-topped, then use a trukk instead.

I have a question for the group; Zhadsnark or Warboss on bike with Ead Woppa Choppa?

Zhadsnark has big shootas, an extra wound, moves an extra inch and always advances 6. Not to mention a power Klaw hitting on 2s with mortal wound 6s on infantry and monsters.

Warboss on bike is 30ish points cheaper. With the relic his weapon is somewhat comparable and he gets an extra attack (2 of which are attack squig though). His gun is worse but can take kustom shoota or any other shooty weapons for more flexibility.

Is it me or is zhadsnark not an auto include anymore? I'll probably take him because I have the model and it's an evil sun named character but still what are your guys' thoughts?

Azhday wrote:

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

Generally speaking I prefer BWs but also trukks can be useful. I think BWs match better with choppy units since they can be T8 without penalizing the unit embarked. I take BWs for boyz, meganobz and sometimes nobz and trukks for bustas, nobz, burnas and flash gitz, sometimes for boyz as well. At 2000 points I usually bring 2-3 BWs with boyz and meganobz and 0-2 trukks full of bustas or a speed freaks list with 6+ trukks full of boyz, nobz, meganobz or bustas and no wagons.

I'd go with a second wagon, it matches better than having a wagon and a trukk. Two wagons and a trukk can work though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I have a question for the group; Zhadsnark or Warboss on bike with Ead Woppa Choppa?

Zhadsnark has big shootas, an extra wound, moves an extra inch and always advances 6. Not to mention a power Klaw hitting on 2s with mortal wound 6s on infantry and monsters.

Warboss on bike is 30ish points cheaper. With the relic his weapon is somewhat comparable and he gets an extra attack (2 of which are attack squig though). His gun is worse but can take kustom shoota or any other shooty weapons for more flexibility.

Is it me or is zhadsnark not an auto include anymore? I'll probably take him because I have the model and it's an evil sun named character but still what are your guys' thoughts?

I just did this math recently to fit in another painboy. The 30 point difference for the benefits you mention is not enough IMO. I'm bringing a warboss on bike.

The hidden advantage of Zhad is that his mortal wounds occur on hit rolls, while the relic occurs on wound rolls. This means that zhad further benefits from waagh banners compared to the relic. His damage output is definitely higher under most conditions, and extremely high in specific conditions. I think the weapon range is negligible to irrelevant of a difference. However my list compensates for lack of Zhad with tankbustas and weirdboys, without good high-ap backup you almost need to include zhad with his -4ap alone.

hollow one wrote:
The hidden advantage of Zhad is that his mortal wounds occur on hit rolls, while the relic occurs on wound rolls.

I totally forgot that the WAAAGH banner stacked with this! Mindblown.gif

Not that I ever use a WAAAGH banner lol, but perhaps now....

Thanks for the feedback, I don't have many weirdboyz in my list and in so many games I play Zhad seems to survive on 1 wound (which would obviously mean dead Warboss) so I'll leave him in for now but will probably try replacing with painboy + Warboss on bike in the new year and see how that goes.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I feel like you were somewhat lucky here. 3 Fire Prisms that move less than half I think would do some serious damage with average rolls using the appropriate shot type even without autarch support or linking.

2d6 shots x 3 = 21 shots average
14 hits average
9(.333) wounds
No saves = 3 dead Nob bikers.

First of all, the bikes were in cover, and he did use the second profile to shoot which is d3 shots and d3 damage. He got 12 wounds in (13 shots, 12 hits, 12 wounds) and killed four nob bikers doing so, IIRC 4 or 5 damage was lost to overkill. The last one was killed by scatter lasers and bright lances. Grotsnik was also in range to provide 6+ FNP, but it didn't do a whole lot.

So I the only thing I got lucky about was one of the wraith lords rolling two's for both his lances.

If they have guide/autarchs support and the Nob bikers are doomed forget about it - with average rolling that should be all she wrote. They ain't cheap units even base, then the the price flies up if you add power klaws and big choppas to the mix.

Don't fall in to the trap of believing Nob bikes to be a tough unit. They just aren't without an inherent invulnerable, FNP or ammo runt ablative wound. They are also real expensive (for Orks) and let's be honest, no-one is scared of 1 or 2 Nob bikers running around the field. Power klaws or not.

I don't see a trap. It's pretty obvious that you get 3 T5 wounds for 14 points per wound. That puts them somewhere above the survivability of lootas, koptas and tank bustas - all units in general considered too fragile, but not terrible.
Regular, footslogging nobs are twice as survivable for their points, and ammo runts are a lot better at wasting mutli-wound shots than simply having 3 wounds. And they are still not considered competitive.
A unit of 10 nobz in a deff rolla battlewagon is around 8.5 points per wound, but gets worse the fewer nobz you take.

So not falling in traps here, I just was used to them suffering instant death from some S10 or destroyer weapon, and they took roughly the same amount of punishment as the battlewagon before they died. That was pretty impressive, as the eldar army had no shooting left to do anything about the warboss that was out in the open after the last nob biker died.

The thing with warbikes is - you'd have had more of them, because they cost 27 ppm instead of 42. Since you get to throw a Nob in for that cost you actually get for 81 pts instead of 126 the following difference; 2 less wounds, 2 less attacks, 1 less strength on the 4 Boyz attacks, 6 lost shoota shots (that should always be put on Nob bikers for free). That's it. I don't understand why anyone would take Nob Bikers over more Warbikes since Warbikes are just as shooty really.

It's pretty simple. S5 AP0 shooting is not worth spending points on, because it will not do meaningful damage to anything that costs more than 8 ppm. If it were, we would put big shootas on our boyz mobs, because that's the cheapest S5 hits we can buy, even if you assume the big shoota boy to be advancing all game.
So if you ignore the dakka guns, Biker Nobz are still nobz, and bikes are just another way to get them into combat. Warbikers are boyz that cost 27 ppm and have to compete with stormboyz and kommandoz.

Strangely and kinda linked to the current discussion Semper's having - both biker units are primary shooting units. They are costed with 6 x str 5 (AP 0 is bogus) shots a piece and you're not gonna use those shots if you're stuck in cqc. For this reason I wouldn't recommend spending too much on Klaws and other cqc weapons on your Nob bikers if you're intent on taking them. And only take them with KFF on Bike (I've found Painboy on Bike to be a waste).

Nob bikers are not a shooting unit. No matter how you kit them, they will never be superior to bikes, buggies or skorchas in shooting. At best they are a melee-shooting hybrid, but their strength is definitely 14" moving PKs, not dakka guns.
Also, the nob bikers were inside KFF range after the BW popped and invisible before that happened. The autarch simply killed the KFF mek with two missiles before the fire prisms used their stratagem, the same would have happened to the biker mek.
As far as my experience goes so far, all pain boyz are a waste, as I'm simply unable to roll decent amounts of sixes. At least Grotsnik kills stuff while providing an aura that does next to nothing.

The actual solution would have been to just run two of them as PK biker warbosses with kombi-skorchas. Those are 118 points a piece, bring 7 T6 wounds each with character protection, hit on 3's, have a free attack squig and provided moral and waagh! auras to infantry.

The reason for me why they are unfortunately in the "utter trash" category is because warbikes do everything they do better and more cost effective. I only ever take them for fluff reasons and they've always felt like a points sink.

This is kind of an indicator that you are using them wrong. If you ignore the close combat options, you are just paying 15 points for an additional wound, when two additional wounds and another dakka gun are 27.
Nobz have been, and always will be, a fast close combat unit. Currently, they are just too expensive (and PKs too weak), but that doesn't change their job.

Also, please, please keep in mind that this game was not a list building exercise. I was full aware that I was taking crap units to the game (I brought a SAG and burnas, if that isn't indicator enough) and that I was going to lose. I could not bring a competitive army because that would have meant simply not finishing the game, since it is virtually impossible to finish a game with 3+ mobs of boyz within 2 hours.
So I was simply giving a bunch of units a go that I wouldn't be using otherwise - discussing how to improve my list is a waste, as the simple answer is "drop everything, run KMK, boyz and weird boyz".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

Azhday wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

It depends on what you want to transport. The battlewagon is for transporting Nobz and Choppa-boyz. A hard-top is mandatory and the deff-rolla can be useful. No guns on the wagon, they are a waste of points.

The trukk is for transporting shoota-boyz or tankbustas. If you need your battlewagon to be open-topped, then use a trukk instead.

I wouldn't bother with shooting boyz in trukks. They won't kill anything through shooting.
Otherwise I agree. Close battlewagons or open topped trukks. Open topped battlewagons have no advantage over simply fielding two trukks.

One thing jidmah, I don't consider big shootas worth taking, nor do I consider warbikers.

But if you are comparing the two pt for pt you need to factor in that a Big Shoota boy is 12pts T4 6+ save. A Warbiker is T5 4+ save 27pts and has twice as much firepower and 1 more wound. They are roughly a toss up for which is better but neither is worth taking over more boyz and Nob Bikers are just as bad (Though I think in this edition they have the edge over regular Warbikers again)

If Warbikers were 18pts again it would be a different story, they might be worth taking again. That or a massive increase in their firepower/survivability.

Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

If fielding shoota boyz, I'd rather take 9 shootas and one big shoota, over 11 shootas. In firepower this is an upgrade. The tradeoff is one less boy for morale and melee purposes. So I would not say it's not worth it...
It only makes a minor difference though

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

 Jidmah wrote:

So if you ignore the dakka guns, Biker Nobz are still nobz, and bikes are just another way to get them into combat. Warbikers are boyz that cost 27 ppm and have to compete with stormboyz and kommandoz.

Warbikes are equivalent to Nobz in terms of durability. T5, 4+, 2 wounds. I don't believe they compete with or fulfil the same role as stormboyz or kommandoz at all. Nor do I think you can just ignore their 6 str 5 shots. They have them and they've been costed with them. If you don't use them you might as well take Nobs and just da jump them up the board.

This is kind of an indicator that you are using them wrong. If you ignore the close combat options, you are just paying 15 points for an additional wound, when two additional wounds and another dakka gun are 27.
Nobz have been, and always will be, a fast close combat unit. Currently, they are just too expensive (and PKs too weak), but that doesn't change their job.

I'm not using them wrong - I'm not using them at all. As I stated; for me warbikes do their job more cost effectively. As I said, if I do take them, it is entirely for fluff. Even with your own example, you spent an extra 36 pts on Power klaws that you never used. That, to me, is a waste. Perhaps you could argue that your opponent wouldn't have focused them if they didn't have the klaws but I think it fools the vast majority of people.

Also, please, please keep in mind that this game was not a list building exercise. I was full aware that I was taking crap units to the game (I brought a SAG and burnas, if that isn't indicator enough) and that I was going to lose. I could not bring a competitive army because that would have meant simply not finishing the game, since it is virtually impossible to finish a game with 3+ mobs of boyz within 2 hours.
So I was simply giving a bunch of units a go that I wouldn't be using otherwise - discussing how to improve my list is a waste, as the simple answer is "drop everything, run KMK, boyz and weird boyz"

I don't think it's a waste. I think it is exactly what we are supposed to discuss in this thread. Is there a scenario in which you think Nob Bikers are even slightly viable? Do warbikes always do the same thing better? Why would you pick one over the other? You made it clear that your list was due to time constraints and testing units you rarely use. Don't take what I said as a flame on you, my intention was to open up a discussion around warbikes vs Nob bikes. I don't think what I said is strictly correct by the way, I'm sure there is a weird edge case when Nob Bikers are more suitable. I want to know what they are.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

I do play competative to some extent, not in the sense that I only play prewritten opti-lists, but I have joined tournaments and played to win with units I thought synergiesed well together. Saying that taking shoota boyz excludes me from a competative scene or discussion is not very professional.

I read your poll and it was not consensus. A lot of votes said they were fine at the current points. Consensus is when everyone agrees. 1-3pts had a majority opinion.

To just consider the 54 pts boyz extra wounds for the big shoota is rather short sighted. The whole unit fulfills an anti infantry role together, and the big shoota just adds some s5 shots and some range utility to it.

I believe shoota boyz have a usefull shooting role when comparing to bikes. Less mobile, but more mass of fire and can use da jump. And the shoota boyz have more attacks in melee so the unit is more flexible in that regard than bikes

Gitdakka wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

I do play competative to some extent, not in the sense that I only play prewritten opti-lists, but I have joined tournaments and played to win with units I thought synergiesed well together. Saying that taking shoota boyz excludes me from a competative scene or discussion is not very professional.

I read your poll and it was not consensus. A lot of votes said they were fine at the current points. Consensus is when everyone agrees. 1-3pts had a majority opinion.

To just consider the 54 pts boyz extra wounds for the big shoota is rather short sighted. The whole unit fulfills an anti infantry role together, and the big shoota just adds some s5 shots and some range utility to it.

I believe shoota boyz have a usefull shooting role when comparing to bikes. Less mobile, but more mass of fire and can use da jump. And the shoota boyz have more attacks in melee so the unit is more flexible in that regard than bikes

Consensus means "General Agreement". In other words majority.

I never said you couldn't discuss the topic at hand and I never will because that isn't productive. Another way to do this would be to compare 66pts worth of Shoota Boyz with a Big Shoota to 2 Warbikers. Shoota boyz put out a plethora of S4 shots (18 to be accurate) and 3 S5 shots. 2 Warbikers put out 12 S5 shots (for 12pts less) 12 S5 shots do about the same dmg vs T4 at range as the Shoota Boyz (when you adjust for 12pt reduction) and against T5+ the warbikers are even more effective. The difference to me is that Boyz are better in general because Warbikers are so heavily overpriced. So the durability HEAVILY favors the boyz. As for using them competitively? you are still better off with Choppas and getting stuck in as quick as possible.

I have run all shootaboyz to good effect. It comes as a nasty surpise for Tyranid and Dark Eldar players especially. But Big Shootas are just not worth it. If you put them on all your boyz in a green tide, they could almost pay for another Warboss and another Weirdboy.

 Jidmah wrote:


Consensus means "General Agreement". In other words majority.

I never said you couldn't discuss the topic at hand and I never will because that isn't productive. Another way to do this would be to compare 66pts worth of Shoota Boyz with a Big Shoota to 2 Warbikers. Shoota boyz put out a plethora of S4 shots (18 to be accurate) and 3 S5 shots. 2 Warbikers put out 12 S5 shots (for 12pts less) 12 S5 shots do about the same dmg vs T4 at range as the Shoota Boyz (when you adjust for 12pt reduction) and against T5+ the warbikers are even more effective. The difference to me is that Boyz are better in general because Warbikers are so heavily overpriced. So the durability HEAVILY favors the boyz. As for using them competitively? you are still better off with Choppas and getting stuck in as quick as possible.

Well you did say I was not a competative player because I use shoota boyz. Does that sound inviting to the tactics discussion to you? I think that was uncalled for.
Anyway which unit would be best against t3 targets? Shoota boyz wins over bikes in my book. Sometimes you want to clear cheap screens with shooting to reach more juicy targets behind with melee units.

And against certain targets, like genestealers I would put more value in shoota boyz, as charging multiple boyz units in across the battlefield will only lead to them using interrupt strategem to get free kills, sometimes whole mobs at a time. Shooting works well against such targets, and later forces them to suffer even more from overwatch (which shoota boyz does well). Against targets like marines in cover, melee is better.

It's not like I only use one of the two tactics. I have melee slugga squads and shoota squads. I find uses for both and they can support each other.

Just as a note, I never said you were not a competitive player, I said you weren't being competitive with that build. If you found that to be insulting I sincerely apologize because that was not my intent in anyway.

Shoota boyz do have some merit. The more attack buffs they get, the less noticeable the difference between them and choppaboyz is. And they can occasionally score an extra kill from afar here and there.
(No idea why US flag. In Germany atm)

SemperMortis wrote:
Just as a note, I never said you were not a competitive player, I said you weren't being competitive with that build. If you found that to be insulting I sincerely apologize because that was not my intent in anyway.

Well if that's what you meant, I should not have taken it as an insult, so then no apology is needed. But thanks for making that clear.

Anyway I think I also made it clear why I see shoota boyz as usefull. So to me they can be a part of a competative build as they have their own tactical merits. They are essential in my army and have at times performed in ways slugga boyz would struggle. Such as da jumping behind a screened character and killing him with shootas and rokkits, where slugga boyz would rely on a 9" charge, which is more risky.

Shoota Boyz also perform well against units that you either want to tie in combat or where 20 odd Slugga Boyz would be overkill.

I can think of a few times I've gotten my Slugga Boyz in combat and they just obliterated the opposing unit with like half the damage to spare. Might as well have shot another unit before charging.

Shootas are also useful to ping a dfferent unit with damage before charging after being jumped up the board. They definitely have uses; despite being strictly less killy than their Slugga brothers they can spread damage across more targets and that can be useful.

Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

I always jump my shoota boyz first, exactly for the reason stated above. Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

I always jump my shoota boyz first, exactly for the reason stated above. Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

With the new mob-up stratagem you can jump 40 boyz forward. And those extra boyz you can conga-line all the way back to a Painboy and a Warboss, making your mob a LOT more survivable in your opponents turn. Regards

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

60 shoota shots will lead to 10 wounds vs T4 or 13.4 wounds vs T3. 15 tacticals will do exactly the same amount of damage within rapid-fire range, while costing slightly more. The difference is that the shoota-boyz will do a massive amount of additional damage if they make the charge, whereas tacticals are totally pointless in CC. Regards

pismakron wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

60 shoota shots will lead to 10 wounds vs T4 or 13.4 wounds vs T3. 15 tacticals will do exactly the same amount of damage within rapid-fire range, while costing slightly more. The difference is that the shoota-boyz will do a massive amount of additional damage if they make the charge, whereas tacticals are totally pointless in CC. Regards

Yeah, and that's fine with me, it's just that the rest of our army has no way to get anywhere near that many shots, which is why our shooting is still terrible. Lootas at their best get 45 shots at S7, so 15 hits, which is pretty darn good, but that's a very expensive, unwieldy, and fragile unit that will only get those 45 shots 33% of the time. Shootas are honestly some of the best shooting we have in the entire army and they're only as strong as a unit of TACs (shooting-wise).

I honestly just wish GW would give orks the volume of shots they are famous for having in the fluff. Shootas are our best example of that. A ridiculous number of shots resulting in only average wounding. I'd be happy with that. I would honestly be elated if orks were given at least average shooting.

But I'm not going to keep wishlisting in this thread since it's been done to death here. We're here for tactics.

Speaking of which, the Morkanaut is usually pretty lackluster on its own, but I feel that fielding one along with a Gorkanaut could actually be pretty nasty. That's a lot of wounds to chew through, especially if you do KFF placement correctly. Would it be worthwhile to include both in a dread mob list, or leave behind the morkanaut for more walkers? I'm honestly leaning towards the morkanaut for the armor and KFF coverage.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Warbikes are equivalent to Nobz in terms of durability. T5, 4+, 2 wounds. I don't believe they compete with or fulfil the same role as stormboyz or kommandoz at all. Nor do I think you can just ignore their 6 str 5 shots. They have them and they've been costed with them. If you don't use them you might as well take Nobs and just da jump them up the board.

I really don't get your argument here. Both warbikers and biker nobz have not changed notably since 4th edition, the only thing that changed was their point costs making them more or less efficient and the defensive bonus of their bikes.
The bike "upgrade" in 8th edition index is +1 wound, +1 toughness, 4+ armor, 14" movement and the two dakka guns and costs 21 points for warbikers, 25 for nobz, 26 for a big mek, and 27 for warbosses.
So in vaccuum, is that upgrade worth it? Definitely not, as Semper explained, a single big shoota with 18" range is probably worth around two points, the defensive stats might be worth another 6-8 points, putting it at 12 points, meaning any model in either unit is probably overcosted by at least 9 points. That's the answer to why they don't work.
All the shooting comes from that "upgrade", and since it's overpriced, there is no reason to field it unless you want the 14" movement and defensive stats out of it - and you don't want it for regular boyz.

On top of that upgrade, you have one unit of 11 choppa boyz + pk nob or (for 4 points less) a unit of 7 nobz with 3 PKs. One is mediocre in combat and can clean up weak units or hold objectives, the other a melee death star that will probably put a huge dent into anything they charge.
That's the reason why warbikers are a shooting unit. 12 boyz will not shift anything in combat so they are more valuable when shooting.
Nob bikers should aim to use that shooting as much as possible, but their main goal is driving into combat. Dakka guns might even help with that, because they only thing they are good at is clearing out bubble wrap.
Mathhammer tells us that three PKs have good chance of putting around 8 damage on a vehicle with T7 or T8, and 14" movement makes sure they can be used each turn after the first until they die. Their role is pretty much comparable to winged daemon princes, if it weren't for high point costs.
Jumping regular nobz is superior only because in this edition both regular nobz(+ammo runt) and weird boy are properly costed, and biker nobz are not. In all previous editions, nob bikers have been superior to regular nobz.

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

I'm not using them wrong - I'm not using them at all. As I stated; for me warbikes do their job more cost effectively. As I said, if I do take them, it is entirely for fluff. Even with your own example, you spent an extra 36 pts on Power klaws that you never used. That, to me, is a waste. Perhaps you could argue that your opponent wouldn't have focused them if they didn't have the klaws but I think it fools the vast majority of people.

He blew them off the board because they were one of three units that could actually destroy a wraithlord or fire prism and because they would have been in charge range for anything in turn 2. Without the PKs, he would have ignored them, because the wraithlord would have slaughtered them in combat.
Any melee upgrade is a waste if the unit gets killed before the unit reaches combat, so argument is kind of moot.
If you're fielding nobz and you are not buying melee upgrade for them, you are wasting the single reason to use nobz in the first place.

I don't think it's a waste. I think it is exactly what we are supposed to discuss in this thread. Is there a scenario in which you think Nob Bikers are even slightly viable? Do warbikes always do the same thing better? Why would you pick one over the other?

I think I have explained most of your questions above, but a short summary:
- No, I don't think biker nobz are viable currently. If I had fielding a unit of nobz with ammo runts for the same points, would have had 9x 2+1 = 27 wounds (nob bikers were 15) and most likely more damage would have been lost to overkill. The klaw would have survived eldar turn 2 and probably killed the wraith lord that was charged by the warboss.
- Warbikers are worse in my opinion. Their shooting is terrible and they have next to no close combat ability. They really have no role right now. Fast boyz is done better by storm boyz, shooty boyz is done better by lootaz, tank bustas and even shoota boyz.
- Biker nobz can at least kill tough stuff in combat. Since the bike "upgrade" is the overcosted part, being able to field more bikes for the same points is not a good thing. Foot nobz and MANz are better right now, but they are not an auto-lose unit. It's more like fielding lootas instead of KMK. It probably won't work as well, but will still do something.

You made it clear that your list was due to time constraints and testing units you rarely use. Don't take what I said as a flame on you, my intention was to open up a discussion around warbikes vs Nob bikes. I don't think what I said is strictly correct by the way, I'm sure there is a weird edge case when Nob Bikers are more suitable. I want to know what they are.

Nob bikers have always been awesome when they get into your opponent's backfield and start destroying expensive, hard targets. Currently they simply don't have the survivability to do that. If exhaust cloud makes a return (in whatever shape), that might change. As of now, regular nobz reach the enemy almost as fast as they do, so the huge point investment for the extra speed is not necessary.

 Jidmah wrote:
I really don't get your argument here. Both warbikers and biker nobz have not changed notably since 4th edition, the only thing that changed was their point costs making them more or less efficient and the defensive bonus of their bikes.
The bike "upgrade" in 8th edition index is +1 wound, +1 toughness, 4+ armor, 14" movement and the two dakka guns and costs 21 points for warbikers, 25 for nobz, 26 for a big mek, and 27 for warbosses.
So in vaccuum, is that upgrade worth it? Definitely not, as Semper explained, a single big shoota with 18" range is probably worth around two points, the defensive stats might be worth another 6-8 points, putting it at 12 points, meaning any model in either unit is probably overcosted by at least 9 points. That's the answer to why they don't work.
All the shooting comes from that "upgrade", and since it's overpriced, there is no reason to field it unless you want the 14" movement and defensive stats out of it - and you don't want it for regular boyz.

On top of that upgrade, you have one unit of 11 choppa boyz + pk nob or (for 4 points less) a unit of 7 nobz with 3 PKs. One is mediocre in combat and can clean up weak units or hold objectives, the other a melee death star that will probably put a huge dent into anything they charge.
That's the reason why warbikers are a shooting unit. 12 boyz will not shift anything in combat so they are more valuable when shooting.
Nob bikers should aim to use that shooting as much as possible, but their main goal is driving into combat. Dakka guns might even help with that, because they only thing they are good at is clearing out bubble wrap.
Mathhammer tells us that three PKs have good chance of putting around 8 damage on a vehicle with T7 or T8, and 14" movement makes sure they can be used each turn after the first until they die. Their role is pretty much comparable to winged daemon princes, if it weren't for high point costs.
Jumping regular nobz is superior only because in this edition both regular nobz(+ammo runt) and weird boy are properly costed, and biker nobz are not. In all previous editions, nob bikers have been superior to regular nobz.

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

I don't get your argument here either - I'm always hearing how awesome Boyz are in close combat and I've had experience of this myself. To the point where I have had far too many attacks and done far too much damage to make full use of. I wouldn't call 7 Nobs with 3 Power Klaws a Death Star either. If I'm taking 12 Warbikers I'm going to take 4 units of 3 so I'm getting 4 Nobs and 8 Boyz. I think I get what you're saying though; they fulfill different functions and your need for this game was for something that could damage armour, which, obviously, Warbikers would struggle with.

I just wonder if you'd have been better with split groups of Warbikers with PK Nobs leading each, even if just 1 or 2 make it - it's more than what managed in your game? Also when you have 4 units of 3 that is 4 possible objectives you can take or contest, you have more board presence, flexibility etc but of course the cost is the kill points you give up. Interesting to consider I think.

He blew them off the board because they were one of three units that could actually destroy a wraithlord or fire prism and because they would have been in charge range for anything in turn 2. Without the PKs, he would have ignored them, because the wraithlord would have slaughtered them in combat.
Any melee upgrade is a waste if the unit gets killed before the unit reaches combat, so argument is kind of moot.
If you're fielding nobz and you are not buying melee upgrade for them, you are wasting the single reason to use nobz in the first place.

As I said above, perhaps your PKs would have reached if they had been split in Warbikes as above?

I understand what you're saying in relation to your game and I particularly agree with your last point - no reason to take Nobz without the melee upgrades of some sort I think.

I think I have explained most of your questions above, but a short summary:
- No, I don't think biker nobz are viable currently. If I had fielding a unit of nobz with ammo runts for the same points, would have had 9x 2+1 = 27 wounds (nob bikers were 15) and most likely more damage would have been lost to overkill. The klaw would have survived eldar turn 2 and probably killed the wraith lord that was charged by the warboss.
- Warbikers are worse in my opinion. Their shooting is terrible and they have next to no close combat ability. They really have no role right now. Fast boyz is done better by storm boyz, shooty boyz is done better by lootaz, tank bustas and even shoota boyz.
- Biker nobz can at least kill tough stuff in combat. Since the bike "upgrade" is the overcosted part, being able to field more bikes for the same points is not a good thing. Foot nobz and MANz are better right now, but they are not an auto-lose unit. It's more like fielding lootas instead of KMK. It probably won't work as well, but will still do something.

I think you're underestimating Warbikes. I definitely wouldn't say they have "next to no close combat ability". This is absolutely bogus. Boyz are considered one of the strongest close combat units in the game. They are simply weaker against targets with higher Toughness, in comparison to Biker Nobs with PKs, although you will always take a Nob in a Warbiker squad and said Nob can also take a PK. Their role is the same as Nob Bikers, they are both a hybrid unit. For me, they are more efficient that Nob Bikers in this role though because as part of their hybrid role they are expected to travel around the board. Your Nob Bikers should be hitting a target and wrecking it before (likely) dying, not flying around to support weaker flanks, grabbing objectives or pestering units. Nobz as you've described (and I agree with) hit hard and focused, Warbikers are floaters in comparison, much more flexible.

Warbikes aren't "fast boyz". They are fast, shooty, tougher boyz. Yes; Stormies are better as "fast boyz" but they aren't half as durable and they have no shooting to speak of. Lootas are better as "shooty boyz" but they aren't half as maneuverable. Tank Bustas are too vulnerable and too obvious a target. Nobz (walking) are much more durable and more killy but they are less maneuverable without outside support.

Nob bikers have always been awesome when they get into your opponent's backfield and start destroying expensive, hard targets. Currently they simply don't have the survivability to do that. If exhaust cloud makes a return (in whatever shape), that might change. As of now, regular nobz reach the enemy almost as fast as they do, so the huge point investment for the extra speed is not necessary.

Yea I agree with you on this too. Exhaust cloud needs to return, or they could have outflank, or they could have an appropriate cost for their bikes.

 Jidmah wrote:

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

Bikes and nob bikers are very different units, especially in this edition. Bikers are a pure shooting unit that can tarpit stuff thanks to their speed, and maybe bubble wrap some ork vehicles to save them from plasma rapid fire range, melta range, or charge range while nob bikers are essentially fast nobz that don't need a transport. But considering how much they cost and their real survivability a unit of meganobz in a trukk can be more killy and has twice the wounds including the transport. Bikers compete with trukk boyz, stormboyz but also buggies essentially, biker nobz with nobz and meganobz. At the moment I'd only take skorchas and meganobz with killsaws, maybe rokkit buggies and nobz with big choppas and runts but I think they're both sub-optimal compared to skorchas and meganobz.

I'd never use biker nobz, IMHO they're among the worst units in the codex. They can maybe be viable only if playing PL kitting all of them with pks and kombi skorchas.

When i played against bike spam list, it did the majority of damage in mellee. Shooting was fine too but it's definitely wrong to not take into consideration the choppiness of even a small amount of boyz and nobz.
And they're quite durable vs d1 weapons. If not for the prevalence of plasma, bikers would have been a decent unit. But you can't rely on your opponent not taking d2 weapons. Painboyz might help from time to time, i guess. You get a 30 ish % chance to save a biker. Which isn't that bad.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't get your argument here either - I'm always hearing how awesome Boyz are in close combat and I've had experience of this myself. To the point where I have had far too many attacks and done far too much damage to make full use of.

30 boyz are a great combat unit, 20 still are, 12... even with a PK nob, I wouldn't call 5 dead MEQ, 3 damage to a T7 vehicle or 2 damage to a T8 vehicle "great".

I just wonder if you'd have been better with split groups of Warbikers with PK Nobs leading each, even if just 1 or 2 make it - it's more than what managed in your game? Also when you have 4 units of 3 that is 4 possible objectives you can take or contest, you have more board presence, flexibility etc but of course the cost is the kill points you give up. Interesting to consider I think.

3x warbikers with PK is 94, the nob biker unit was 249. So for 33 points I would have gotten one more wound per PK to protect it - ok trade I guess. However, they would have been perfect targets for the hemlocks (2 damage flamers), so, maybe? Board presence is kind of moot, since I was tabled.
I would have gladly traded away a looba for those extra wounds though, so I guess it's roughly a tie.

As I said above, perhaps your PKs would have reached if they had been split in Warbikes as above?

Almost certainly not. The hemlocks were killing lobbas and kannons that turn because they had no better targets. It would have prevented him from using the fire prism stratagem because all three tanks need to target the same unit, but I also wouldn't have been able to put them all in cover to force him to use the AP-4 gun. I think either choice would have been pretty dead.

I think you're underestimating warbikes. I definitely wouldn't say they have "next to no close combat ability". This is absolutely bogus. Boyz are considered one of the strongest close combat units in the game.

Boyz with green tide bonus and a huge mob rule leadership are. 12 boyz which are most likely out of any range of any large mob a lot less so. There is a reason trukk boyz don't see play, and those are almost half the points of a warbiker mob.

Warbikes aren't "fast boyz". They are fast, shooty, tougher boyz. Yes; Stormies are better as "fast boyz" but they aren't half as durable and they have no shooting to speak of.

You get more than 3 storm boyz for every warbiker. You get 30 storm boyz including a PK nob for 9 war bikers, for 31 vs 21 wounds and their sluggas are still half as good as those dakka guns per point spent. Not to mention their vastly superior melee and leadership.

Lootas are better as "shooty boyz" but they aren't half as maneuverable. Tank Bustas are too vulnerable and too obvious a target. Nobz (walking) are much more durable and more killy but they are less maneuverable without outside support.

What's the point of maneuverability if you die to a stiff breeze anyways (so no holding objectives) and all other units have just as much range? Lootaz can reach anything on the table if deployed in a good position, so they don't need to move. Tank bustaz have a threat range of 29" and actually have good weapons (and rerolls!), warbikers are 32". So there is no real advantage to bringing war bikers as shooting units.

Bottom line, for everything a warbiker could do, there is another unit that does it better.

A sluggaboy costs 2 points per S4 attack in CC
A stormboy costs 2.6 points per S4 attack in CC
Shoota-boyz and kommandos costs 3 points per S4 attack in CC
A warbiker costs 9 points per CC attack

Warbikers are simply too expensive to doo any real damage in CC, and they are certainly too expensive to use as ablative wounds for the free nob. A minimum squad of warbikers with a PK on the nob is 90 points. A minimum sized squad of Stormboyz with PK-nob is 53 points.

pismakron wrote:
A sluggaboy costs 2 points per S4 attack in CC
A stormboy costs 2.6 points per S4 attack in CC
Shoota-boyz and kommandos costs 3 points per S4 attack in CC
A warbiker costs 9 points per CC attack

Warbikers are simply too expensive to doo any real damage in CC, and they are certainly too expensive to use as ablative wounds for the free nob. A minimum squad of warbikers with a PK on the nob is 90 points. A minimum sized squad of Stormboyz with PK-nob is 53 points.

Exactly this. Even taking them down to 7th edition points they wouldn't be auto takes.

pismakron wrote:
A sluggaboy costs 2 points per S4 attack in CC
A stormboy costs 2.6 points per S4 attack in CC
Shoota-boyz and kommandos costs 3 points per S4 attack in CC
A warbiker costs 9 points per CC attack

Warbikers are simply too expensive to doo any real damage in CC, and they are certainly too expensive to use as ablative wounds for the free nob. A minimum squad of warbikers with a PK on the nob is 90 points. A minimum sized squad of Stormboyz with PK-nob is 53 points.

Bikes are even more expensive than that. 27ppm means that a min unit with no upgrades on the nob is 81 points, with a pk is 94. Almost twice the cost of 5 stormboyz.

I've never had great results by throwing them in combat in 7th edition, even with units of 10 bikes, now they can't even have the +1A for charging. The pk on the nob was the only thing that mattered. But tons of S5 shots can be useful, especially now that lobbas were nerfed. Generally speaking orks don't have efficient ranged anti infantry weapons: skorchas are nice but with a very low range, burnaboyz with their D3 shots are extremely lackluster, kannonz can only inflict a few wounds on infantries and kans with big shootas are utterly overcosted. Dakkajets may be ok, but I hate ork planes

So bikes should be our best ranged anti infantry but with a cost of 27ppm they're not gonna see the battlefield. They should be 21ppm with a 5+ invuln. IMHO every bike in the game should have an invuln that replaces the old jink rule. Big shootas and dakkaguns should be Ap-1 since they were AP5 in the previous editions.

Our best ranged anti-infantry are shoota boyz.

The difference between S5 and S4 is irrelevant against almost all infantry that requires volumes of shot remove and is just as useless against elite infantry.

 Blackie wrote:

pismakron wrote:
A sluggaboy costs 2 points per S4 attack in CC
A stormboy costs 2.6 points per S4 attack in CC
Shoota-boyz and kommandos costs 3 points per S4 attack in CC
A warbiker costs 9 points per CC attack

Warbikers are simply too expensive to doo any real damage in CC, and they are certainly too expensive to use as ablative wounds for the free nob. A minimum squad of warbikers with a PK on the nob is 90 points. A minimum sized squad of Stormboyz with PK-nob is 53 points.

Bikes are even more expensive than that. 27ppm means that a min unit with no upgrades on the nob is 81 points, with a pk is 94. Almost twice the cost of 5 stormboyz.

I've never had great results by throwing them in combat in 7th edition, even with units of 10 bikes, now they can't even have the +1A for charging. The pk on the nob was the only thing that mattered. But tons of S5 shots can be useful, especially now that lobbas were nerfed. Generally speaking orks don't have efficient ranged anti infantry weapons: skorchas are nice but with a very low range, burnaboyz with their D3 shots are extremely lackluster, kannonz can only inflict a few wounds on infantries and kans with big shootas are utterly overcosted. Dakkajets may be ok, but I hate ork planes

So bikes should be our best ranged anti infantry but with a cost of 27ppm they're not gonna see the battlefield. They should be 21ppm with a 5+ invuln. IMHO every bike in the game should have an invuln that replaces the old jink rule. Big shootas and dakkaguns should be Ap-1 since they were AP5 in the previous editions.

I don't think they should have an invulnerable save or AP-1. If you want the invulnerable save there is the KFF. I think if they were 18 ppm they would be fine. They would have good short-range shooting, and be slightly more durable than boyz.Their CC ability would be mediocre rather than awful. A chaos biker is 23 ppm with a better save and better BS but worse CC ability.

I would like for bikes to get the benefit of cover whenever they advance. And extra speed with a red paint-job.

As for anti-infantry shooting Orks has Shoota-boyz and Gretchin. And surprisingly neither option is garbage.

pismakron wrote:

I don't think they should have an invulnerable save or AP-1. If you want the invulnerable save there is the KFF.

As for anti-infantry shooting Orks has Shoota-boyz and Gretchin. And surprisingly neither option is garbage.

Bikes used to jink, which means a 4+ that could even become a 2+ save that completely lauhged at the AP. Now the 4+ can weakened even by low AP. I think a 5+ invuln can decently replace their older ability to jink. Drukhari vehicles and flyers all got that and only venoms already had a 5+ invuln. Makes sense for those things that were jinking all the time.

The KFF is there to give a save to stuff that couldn't have any if hit by weapons with good AP. Bikes shouldn't need a babysitting big mek.

The AP-1 comes from their old AP value which was AP5 and could bypass 1/3 of the armor saves. Now they bypass nothing. Dakkaguns and big shootas are just heavy bolters, wielded by stronger bodies so they're assault instead of heavy, but they should have the same AP. The assault profile is the compensation for orks being BS5+ or BS4+.

I wouldn't want bikes to be more effective in close combat, just make trukks cheaper and field trukk boyz for that role. 18ppm is probably too cheap since they got a second wound and the game's format is shifted from 1850 to 2000 points. 21ppm with an invuln and an AP could make them viable again. Some extra speed could be nice as well but I think they don't need that.

Gretchins for being anti infantry you need tons of them, they're slow, with a short range and extremely vulnerable, they really don't serve any other purpose than list fillers, they're terrible in killing stuff. They can be jumped but who's gonna jump them instead of boyz since we can use that psychic power only once per turn?

Shoota boyz are certainly decent but still more assault oriented than shooty. In fact their tipycal move is to deepstrike, shoot and charge. They cannot be parked on objectives and defend them since they won't get any cover and once their number is reduced they won't kill anything with their shootas, you tipycally want them into combat anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Our best ranged anti-infantry are shoota boyz.

The difference between S5 and S4 is irrelevant against almost all infantry that requires volumes of shot remove and is just as useless against elite infantry.

It's relevant against T4. Not every infantries are T3 hordes. I think orks should have options to remove SM equivalents by shooting as well.

And shootaboyz are squishy and slow, they're an assault unit with some bonus in their shooting.

Burnaboyz should be another dedicated anti infantry but with a crappy D3 autohits they won't do anything. Maybe with D6 autohits, like any other flamer.

Merry Xmas everyone! Good to see the old "Boyz are better than x" adage made a swift return to the topic lol

Yes, Boyz, Storm Boyz, Kommandos and Shoota Boyz are cheaper per str 4 cc attack. The thing is they don't move 14", have 2 wounds a pop, T5, 6 str 5 shots and a 4+ save. The previously mentioned Boyz variations on foot are far more points efficient than bikes at a certain role but are generally less flexible. When we take warbikes we pay for that flexibility (too much at the moment, no doubt). Nob bikers, as Jidmah mentioned earlier, are somewhat more specialised (get these awesome cc weapons where they need to be). They are also too expensive.

So both bike variations are certainly too expensive at the moment and I agree Dakka guns should be AP - 1, but I could spend days on here writing up a wishlist that GW will never see and I doubt it would provide much in the way of tactical insight.

In a meta of hordes, bikes may come to have a place. They are easier to hide than most of our units, against damage 1 weapons they have decent durability and their shooting is some of the best we have access to (though wildly overcosted before you all jump down my neck). I think their role as a unit that can tie things up in cc is going to change with all the stratagems and abilities that allow a unit to leave combat and still fire.

If both biker units drop in points that could help but I don't think they'll ever be cheaper or more effective than weirdboy + da jump so I'm not sure this is the right solution. Exhaust cloud could make a come back for extra durability. Nob bikers could have an invulnerable or able to take "Biker Runts". I think we need more AP across most of our shooting so I think Dakka guns should be AP - 1. I'd really like to see an ability that causes mortal wounds on the charge for them since they are supposed to be cc, hit and run beasts. Evil sunz could have the klan ability to leave combat and still charge which would tie in nicely and be very fluffy. And now I'm wishlisting. Curse you dakkadakka!

Back on topic - warbikes don't need to be jumped up the board. They can be small units so hidden easier. Their shooting is decent. I have used them well by hiding them behind terrain at the start of the game before rushing to a flank to support it or grab/contest an objective. They can be useful for locking things in combat and providing an annoying distraction. There are, no doubt, better units for this function but I don't have a ton of those units painted and I'm committed to playing evil sunz as evil sunz should be played, not as Goffs with weirdboy support or blood axe Kommandos.

3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

8 CP list:


Tankbustas list


Less CP, no KFF but better upgrades and max stormboyz

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

8 CP list:

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2 weirdboyz
2x 30 choppa boyz (P Klaw, B Choppa)
30 shoota boyz (B Choppa)
11 Stormboyz

Vanguard:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
2x 5 Kommandos
Waaagh Banner

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Tankbustas list

Spoiler:

Batallion:
Weirdboy
Warboss on Bike (B Choppa)
2x 30 choppa boyz (vanilla nobs)
30 shoota boyz (vanilla nob)
5 tankbustas 2 squigs
trukk rokket
20 Stormboyz

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Less CP, no KFF but better upgrades and max stormboyz

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2x Weirdboy
2x 30 Choppa Boyz (2x Power Klaw)
29 shoota boyz (power klaw)
19 stormboyz (power klaw)
2x 5 kommandos
waaagh banner

Spearhead:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
3x KMK

Personally I like the first list best. What are the 11 Storm Boyz for though, what are taking on the weirdboyz and what's your meta like? If you know you'll be facing a lot of vehicles Tank Bustas list might be better. How are you intending to play the lists? I assume jump the shoota Boyz turn one with the storm Boyz advancing up field? Kommandos for grabbing objectives? The only thing I'm not sold on is the WAAAGH banner.

Stormboyz are there because.... they're the best fast unit orks have? Just run arround and do things faster than boyz. I can split 'em up I guess...
Weirdboyz are Da Jump and Warpath.
Meta is undefined.

And yeah, the idea is something like that. Waaagh banner feels like a good force multiplier to just throw in. Also fills an elite slot. I could take painboy(+3 stormboyz) or something like that. Only have 10 kommandos atm.

I also have thraka but at 1250... not sure if worth

Bikes are much more resilient than boyz vs 1d weapons if you count in an extra turn of shooting that boyz have to face.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

I like all three lists, but my favourite is the third list:

I would consider the following:

1) Split up a boyz squad and go for two battalions if you find yourself in need for CP's

2) Swap the banner-nob for a painboy/Grotsnik

3) Split the stormboyz into minimum-sized squads

Otherwise I think your list i solid. And remember the following:

a) What you cannot attack effectively, you should ignore and focus on something else

b) Play the mission, grab objectives, get some VPs.

c) Ignoring a flank and overloading the other can be effective.

Regards

 koooaei wrote:
Bikes are much more resilient than boyz vs 1d weapons if you count in an extra turn of shooting that boyz have to face.

And are exponentially worse when facing D2 weapons like spammed plasma which pretty much ignores their armor as well. Its a trade off, but the fact is that Biker Boyz went up in price 50% and only gained +1 wound while losing their 4+ Jink Save, which in my book is pretty much a wash, especially when you factored in all the modifiers, I used to have a huge mob of 2+ Jink save bikers with a 2+ Rerollable jink save on a warboss (da lucky stick) and now I have 30ish Warbikers sitting on a shelf because 27pts its so unrealistic that even in friendly games I don't want to take them out.

Why don't people think higher of the banner here? The top ork player from ITC always takes it :/ No painboy or KFF, either in his SoCal list.

Has anyone come across any youtube batreps of even a semi-decent Ork player who has even a moderately competitive list (meaning a lot of boyz 120+, weirdboyz etc)? Every batrep I see have some sort of half assed mechanized list that gets pummeled pretty quickly. I'd like to see an experienced player show me how it's done.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Why don't people think higher of the banner here? The top ork player from ITC always takes it :/ No painboy or KFF, either in his SoCal list.

I think the banner-nob is okay-ish. He is a solid buff in the phase where you need it the least. He is not a bad option, but he is 79 points. At one point I stopped bringing him in exchange for more boyz, and I haven't looked back. The same is true of Ghaz now that I think about it.

But I definitely think a case could be made for the banner-nob instead of the KFF-mek, for example. It is a preference thing.

Updated Mathammer for Orks. 4 relavant pages:
Durability (colored by comparing all units)
Durability factions (colored by comparing only the units in the faction)
Avg Damage
Avg Damage factions

Ghaz is great for the advance and charge alone, plus he's a great second wave. If your opponent doesn't expand his bubble, you can Jump into his castle. If he does expand, Ghaz can give you turn 1 charges.

SemperMortis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Bikes are much more resilient than boyz vs 1d weapons if you count in an extra turn of shooting that boyz have to face.

And are exponentially worse when facing D2 weapons like spammed plasma which pretty much ignores their armor as well. Its a trade off, but the fact is that Biker Boyz went up in price 50% and only gained +1 wound while losing their 4+ Jink Save, which in my book is pretty much a wash, especially when you factored in all the modifiers, I used to have a huge mob of 2+ Jink save bikers with a 2+ Rerollable jink save on a warboss (da lucky stick) and now I have 30ish Warbikers sitting on a shelf because 27pts its so unrealistic that even in friendly games I don't want to take them out.

Maybe you should try them out in a friendly game. They sure are not cheap enough for a competitive game but are pretty ok otherwise.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

8 CP list:

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2 weirdboyz
2x 30 choppa boyz (P Klaw, B Choppa)
30 shoota boyz (B Choppa)
11 Stormboyz

Vanguard:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
2x 5 Kommandos
Waaagh Banner

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Tankbustas list

Spoiler:

Batallion:
Weirdboy
Warboss on Bike (B Choppa)
2x 30 choppa boyz (vanilla nobs)
30 shoota boyz (vanilla nob)
5 tankbustas 2 squigs
trukk rokket
20 Stormboyz

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Less CP, no KFF but better upgrades and max stormboyz

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2x Weirdboy
2x 30 Choppa Boyz (2x Power Klaw)
29 shoota boyz (power klaw)
19 stormboyz (power klaw)
2x 5 kommandos
waaagh banner

Spearhead:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
3x KMK

The second list has too many unplayables or borderlines for me; the trukk, big mek, and tank bustas.
1st and 3rd list are basically the same. Of those two I like the 3rd. I would personally drop the PKs (for BCs) and banner, and add a painboy and a KMK if you got em.

hollow one wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

8 CP list:

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2 weirdboyz
2x 30 choppa boyz (P Klaw, B Choppa)
30 shoota boyz (B Choppa)
11 Stormboyz

Vanguard:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
2x 5 Kommandos
Waaagh Banner

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Tankbustas list

Spoiler:

Batallion:
Weirdboy
Warboss on Bike (B Choppa)
2x 30 choppa boyz (vanilla nobs)
30 shoota boyz (vanilla nob)
5 tankbustas 2 squigs
trukk rokket
20 Stormboyz

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Less CP, no KFF but better upgrades and max stormboyz

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2x Weirdboy
2x 30 Choppa Boyz (2x Power Klaw)
29 shoota boyz (power klaw)
19 stormboyz (power klaw)
2x 5 kommandos
waaagh banner

Spearhead:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
3x KMK

The second list has too many unplayables or borderlines for me; the trukk, big mek, and tank bustas.
1st and 3rd list are basically the same. Of those two I like the 3rd. I would personally drop the PKs (for BCs) and banner, and add a painboy and a KMK if you got em.

I think one trukk alone will get focused down with AT (unless you can hide it from LOS in round one). And you're only using half the transport capacity, maybe an other small unit to ride along? Or crank up the tankbustas?

One option would be to loose the trukk and bustas, put the points into rokkit launchas embedded in the boyz instead. you can jump them (no need to advance that unit) and shoot the rokkits then. The points should be enough for at least 9 rokkits.

hollow one wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
3 lists for a 1250 pts tournament.
Thoughts(if yo can be bothered to)?

8 CP list:

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2 weirdboyz
2x 30 choppa boyz (P Klaw, B Choppa)
30 shoota boyz (B Choppa)
11 Stormboyz

Vanguard:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
2x 5 Kommandos
Waaagh Banner

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Tankbustas list

Spoiler:

Batallion:
Weirdboy
Warboss on Bike (B Choppa)
2x 30 choppa boyz (vanilla nobs)
30 shoota boyz (vanilla nob)
5 tankbustas 2 squigs
trukk rokket
20 Stormboyz

Spearhead:
Big Mek(KFF)
3x KMK

Less CP, no KFF but better upgrades and max stormboyz

Spoiler:

Batallion:
2x Weirdboy
2x 30 Choppa Boyz (2x Power Klaw)
29 shoota boyz (power klaw)
19 stormboyz (power klaw)
2x 5 kommandos
waaagh banner

Spearhead:
Warboss on Bike (B choppa)
3x KMK

The second list has too many unplayables or borderlines for me; the trukk, big mek, and tank bustas.
1st and 3rd list are basically the same. Of those two I like the 3rd. I would personally drop the PKs (for BCs) and banner, and add a painboy and a KMK if you got em.

Huh? KFF unplayble/boderline?
Tankbustas were in the best ork list in the last major tournament in a trakk(obviously better than a trukk ofc)

I don't have another KMK yet. I'm still thoroughly confused about the banner hate here :/
1D4 is calling it a must take and it was in the same ork list mentioned previously.
Hm......

I wouldn't call it a banner hate. It simply doesn't add that much to justify 79 points. Hordes of boyz usually don't need extra hits, the banner could really shine when buffing lots of pks. But that's not what many players use to field. I mean kans, dreads, nauts, meganonobz, nobz are all suboptimal units if not bad ones, it's not that common to field those units en masse. Characters like painboyz, weirdboyz and big meks could benefit from the banner but they usually stay out of combat anyway and Ghaz already hits on 2s.

Not to mention that many ork players still prefer big choppas over pks for their nobz that lead boyz, kommandos and stormboyz units.

The only games I'd bring the banner in my lists are the ones in which I use the gorkanaut+2x3 kans+big mek with KFF combo.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Huh? KFF unplayble/boderline?
Tankbustas were in the best ork list in the last major tournament in a trakk(obviously better than a trukk ofc)

I don't have another KMK yet. I'm still thoroughly confused about the banner hate here :/
1D4 is calling it a must take and it was in the same ork list mentioned previously.
Hm......

I wouldn't call KFF unplayable either, it's not incredible but it can be justified for certain, expensive units. It's probably not best spent on Boyz unless you can get an absolute ton under it's area and then you're limiting your board presence.

Tankbustas are one of our most killy AA at range. They are a must for me but they need protection which increases their cost right out.

There's no banner hate, as has been said it's a buff where you need it least. 20+ to 30 Boyz are going to crush most things in melee anyway (or they'll die before they get to do anything) and you're not taking a lot of PKs to make a ton of use of it. If you had a squad of Nobz with 2-3 PKs, or a few MANZ acting as your AA you have more justification to take it.

At the end of the day, decide for yourself if you want to take it. To me, the force multiplication in a 1250 pt list is not worth it's cost but you might have a different opinion and experience. I doubt it will make the difference between a win and a loss.

The KFF is best on units with a 4+ save, which means transports for Orks. For walkers the benefit is considerably smaller. For boyz it depends a lot of your meta. If you run into a lot of assault cannons and heavy bolters a KFF is solid, all though it limits your flexibility somewhat.

I saw an Ork player who would consistently advance half his army under a single KFF umbrella on the edge of one flank and then deploy the rest of his army into reserves.

Hm... you guys might be right about this whole banner thing. Maybe I'll take a painboy instead

Try out both and see what works for you. There is not always an exact answer.

-banner
+painboy
+stormboy(for a full unit of 20)
+boy(for a full unit of 30)
+3 kustom shootas for fun (and I don't really have much to do with that ammount of pts anyway)

Saving an ammo runt/grot crew from certain death cus i made the 5++ or 6+++ is one of my favorite things to do this edition, even if its not that great...

 Weazel wrote:
Has anyone come across any youtube batreps of even a semi-decent Ork player who has even a moderately competitive list (meaning a lot of boyz 120+, weirdboyz etc)? Every batrep I see have some sort of half assed mechanized list that gets pummeled pretty quickly. I'd like to see an experienced player show me how it's done.

https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com

That blog if you look a bit back has some greentide batreps (prior to his chaos army). The author sometimes ties up the batrep with an explanation video on YT.

His ork list was really strong, with weirdboy and boy spam. I used an altered version of this list to great effect at a local tourney (had I painted my whole army I would have been eligible for 2nd place among 40 people).

The batrep YT videos the author does explain his thoughts and are quite interesting.

Yo, that's really good! Thanks

Kff is definitely one of those boderline units. If youre getting shot into by 0ap shooting, its hard to justify its value as the swing in saves is only 16%, but when youre getting shot at by -1ap and higher, units such like heavy bolters, thats when it becomes justifiable (a 34% save increase from not being able to save to saving on 5's). Depending on your local meta and how common -ap shooting may be, the more common it is, the more valuable a kff is. Right now i have a list of about 80 Stormboyz i use a KFF for to try and save as many boyz as possible so i can lock prio targets up turn 2. And then i have my horde of boyz and psykers behind. They tend to leave the horde of boys alone because the opponent is worried about the fast moving stormies.

Banner, in my opinion, the value is lost because hes too slow of movement and youre not going to get any use out his aura. When youre having to DS things like Ghaz and boyz, at what turn do you plan on getting value out of him. Hes potentially going to get some value if you dont need to DS ghaz, or you get a short deployment so you can get a not-so costly daisy chain.

Ghaz: i think his value is from the army lacking some heavy hitting units/ high threats. Between 6 or so pyskers and ghaz, you have real punching power, as well as, giving boys who DS in subsequent turns another attack when finishing their charge. unless you DS ghaz early on(turn2/3) i think his value definitely gets lost to just bringing more boyz or some kmks because he moves to dang slow.

Im still undecided about painboys, but i think for a tournament list, hes justifiable. If you run into scouts and you have a smite heavy list, being able to heal a weirdboy to ensure you dont peril , is pretty worth the 54 points imo. But, if youre playing a pick up or casual game and youa nret going to play against any scouts or charactater targeting units, value is lost. you will however, are still gong to be able to get some value out of healing(once per turn) your peril'd weirdboyz and allow them to safely smite again.

Ive reached the point where the only "buffs" i take are Weirdboyz for +1 attack, but only because I am still fielding my Kommando Tide and they need the extra hits and a Banner Nob is just too slow to keep up.

If they buffed the KFF to 4++ I think it would be used a lot more, and/or if they fixed our expensive vehicles to be worth taking it might see more play.

Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.

Im am usually playing the tide, but looking to alter my list somewhat and consider to custom build some Custom Mega Cannons. How many would you suggest is a minimum for them to be worth taking in a 1000- 1500 list. Just one or two only gives away a good target for anti tank weapons that otherwise would have to shot at boyz.

I play generally with at least 4 with some other things for them to shoot at. And while i have had some games where they were rolling poorly all game in general they are fairly reliable damage output. they can occasionally do very well, i have taken a storm talon out of the air in one turn too, (what a relief for the boyz). Personally i dont see any of my serious lists running without them, theya re good damage and if you spread your grots out right you prevent an awful lot of deepstrike from happening in the back. For example i had thousand sons termies drop in and come in and charge 1 of the gun squads, which is fine it cost me 40 something point,. then on my turn the rest of the guns that see the terminators fire plasma and wipe them out. I dont know how many points a thousand sons terminator squad costs but it sure isnt less than 40 points.

So IMO i run as many as possible.

Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.

 koooaei wrote:
Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.

I just wouldnt take him under 1000 or even maby 1250 lists. at that point your kinda too many eggs in 1 basket.

 Dojo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Ghaz has always payed off for me. Be it a footslogging or a mech list. He's simply too good to pass by.

I just wouldnt take him under 1000 or even maby 1250 lists. at that point your kinda too many eggs in 1 basket.

A very tough and choppy basket, mind you.

KFF is definitely solid for a green tide. 2 can cover 6 units on turn one. Cutting casualties by 1/3 is a big deal.

And yes to Ghaz, especially in smaller games. He's one of the best force multipliers out there, as well as being one of the nastiest cc chars.

KFF I feel works for blobs because it gives them a better save as well as an invuln. It also works for vehicles due to all the AP that's going to be shooting at them. Anything in between is just a waste.

 Dojo wrote:
Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.

I have only played about a dozen games of 8th and I have used Ghaz in all but one of them. When he does get in combat he wrecks face but in a lot of these games, he slowly moves up the board and does not get into combat as everything moves faster than him. Have people usually run him in a mech list and put him in a battlewagon? Or do your opponents move stuff into your face so that his slow speed doesn't matter as much.

I have not used Zhadsnark yet but I do have the model. Do you run him alongside some bikes?

I have yet to use KMCs but am still looking at the artillery rules so when an opponent targets them, I can implement the rules appropriately.

You do realize ghaz unlike most mega armor nobs moves the same as boys. And is within his own aura so can advance and charge a rerolls as well. So ghaz keeps up with normal blobs not jumped just fine.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
-banner
+painboy
+stormboy(for a full unit of 20)
+boy(for a full unit of 30)
+3 kustom shootas for fun (and I don't really have much to do with that ammount of pts anyway)

I like these changes, except the kustom shootas. You could downgrade some PKs to BCs and squeeze in one more tankbusta? That might be better overall, especially if you can get some more bomb squigs.

I think it's already been discussed, but the banner is 79 points. You'll find that your melee damage output is never really the problem, it's survival, so I really like your switch to painboyz. You might find yourself leaving your KFF with your KMKs (which is what I do at 2000 points) and honestly, it's probably better to just bring 2 more KMKs for his cost. At 1250, two more KMKs will do a lot of work. That's basically why I say he is borderline, he will rarely provide his points back in damage reduction unless you are covering 6+ KMKs or 90+ Boyz all game. His damage output is irrelevant but his repairs are nice too, he's borderline.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreenTidePackers wrote:
Kff is definitely one of those boderline units. If youre getting shot into by 0ap shooting, its hard to justify its value as the swing in saves is only 16%, but when youre getting shot at by -1ap and higher, units such like heavy bolters, thats when it becomes justifiable (a 34% save increase from not being able to save to saving on 5's). Depending on your local meta and how common -ap shooting may be, the more common it is, the more valuable a kff is. Right now i have a list of about 80 Stormboyz i use a KFF for to try and save as many boyz as possible so i can lock prio targets up turn 2. And then i have my horde of boyz and psykers behind. They tend to leave the horde of boys alone because the opponent is worried about the fast moving stormies.

Banner, in my opinion, the value is lost because hes too slow of movement and youre not going to get any use out his aura. When youre having to DS things like Ghaz and boyz, at what turn do you plan on getting value out of him. Hes potentially going to get some value if you dont need to DS ghaz, or you get a short deployment so you can get a not-so costly daisy chain.

Ghaz: i think his value is from the army lacking some heavy hitting units/ high threats. Between 6 or so pyskers and ghaz, you have real punching power, as well as, giving boys who DS in subsequent turns another attack when finishing their charge. unless you DS ghaz early on(turn2/3) i think his value definitely gets lost to just kmks because hbringing more boyz or somee moves to dang slow.

Im still undecided about painboys, but i think for a tournament list, hes justifiable. If you run into scouts and you have a smite heavy list, being able to heal a weirdboy to ensure you dont peril , is pretty worth the 54 points imo. But, if youre playing a pick up or casual game and youa nret going to play against any scouts or charactater targeting units, value is lost. you will however, are still gong to be able to get some value out of healing(once per turn) your peril'd weirdboyz and allow them to safely smite again.

IMO the more stormboyz you have the less likely you should be bringing KFFs. Walking big meks are too slow, and warbike big meks are too expensive for stormboy protection. Plus you'll get turn 2 charges the latest anyway, so KFFs are not as important. I tend to agree with your assessment on Ghaz. In particular I must mention that healing with painboy, even the FNP on perils, is so valuable for weirdboyz. I will never field weirdboyz without a painboy now, it makes their damage output very reliable across the entire game, even 1 dedicated painboy for your weirdboy bundle is worth it imo. Now that the PK has dropped in price, I think painboy stock has increased dramatically.

Just so you know, the list is now:


I still have these:

-24 PK to BC
-90 kommandos

+53 painboy
+62 weirdboy

thats a 1 point excess, hopefully the original list wasnt 1250 on the nose.

It was 1250. And aren't kommandos really really good?
Expendable points are
12 pts - kustom shootas
24 pts - PKs to BCs

I'd take pks over big choppas everytime in units of 15+ dudes.

About KMKs, there's no minimum number, even a single one is worth its points, especially in smaller games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just so you know, the list is now:

Spoiler:

2 Weirdboy
2x 30 slugga boyz (2 PK) (all I have)
30 shoota boyz (PK) (all I have)
20 Stormboyz (PK) (all I have)
3x KMK (all I have)

Warboss on Bike(BC)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas) (all I have)
Painboy

I still have these:

Spoiler:

10 nobs
10 grots with runtherd
2 trukks
2 Battlewagons
2 skorcha/trakk/buggies
1 deffchoppa
2 fliers
2 Deffdreads
Thraka
2 big meks
1 more painboy
banner
2 weirdboyz
3 warbikers
2 characters on bike
10 burnas/lootas
10 tankbustas (4 dogs)

I think the list is already the most competitive one you can think with your collection.

hollow one wrote:


IMO the more stormboyz you have the less likely you should be bringing KFFs. Walking big meks are too slow, and warbike big meks are too expensive for stormboy protection. Plus you'll get turn 2 charges the latest anyway, so KFFs are not as important. I tend to agree with your assessment on Ghaz. In particular I must mention that healing with painboy, even the FNP on perils, is so valuable for weirdboyz. I will never field weirdboyz without a painboy now, it makes their damage output very reliable across the entire game, even 1 dedicated painboy for your weirdboy bundle is worth it imo. Now that the PK has dropped in price, I think painboy stock has increased dramatically.

I did the math, somewhere around taking 40 wounds from a -1AP weapon plus, you regain a KFF with bike value (On average, saving 34% more shots vs not being able to save. you take 40 wounds times 34% is 13.6 saved wounds. 8 points per model for stormboyz 13.6 x 8 = 108.8. big mek on bike costs 101 ).

ive only been playing the game for a couple months now, so i dont know ALL the units and all their profiles, but, i know things like stormravens and razorbacks have a lot of shots with -1ap. So, a gman gun line with backs,(with re rolls thanks to gman, youre bascially eating 12 shots at -1. pretty common to see 2-3 razorbacks. So, if you going second, youre defnitely going to be taking more than 40 wounds.

also, at the end of the day, you cant just value a unit purely off its point value. there are some intangibles. what about the times you may make a lot of saves? The opponent also has to make a decision to shoot into a unit with a 5++ vs shooting into something else. What if you have to go second, your stormboyz, most likely, will be taking 2 rounds of shooting.

Like i said, ive only been playing for a couple months, so i havent seen or studied every unit, so i dont know how common a lot of shots with -1ap or higher is, but i think thats worth talking about in this forum. Its definitely one of those units that needs discussion. There can be arguments for both sides.

gseed2p wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Some real world info coming at yas. kinda topical.

My experience with Ghazkull is as follows. played about 8 times this edition so far, and in most games he made his points back and definately made his aura worth the time. Half of these games were in local tournments, all ghazkull games were a victory. Notable feats: shredding a whole squad of litchguard which turned what could have been a loss into a victory ( that was the game i learned about tesla and my boyz evaporated), He 1 tapped a demon prince, and 1 tapped Logan Grimnar. I found him to never be a liability, and when hes connected to a charge anything they hit will hit hard, even if not at funn strength.

Zhadsnark: i include in 80% of my lists. Usually does pretty good, the mobility is really nice, especially if you need him to suddenly let a mob halfway across the map advance and charge. Hes also a monster in combat.

Even before i had a chance to play games i had heard that lootas had taken a hit due to the cover rule and the ap modifiers, but im stubborn and suprisingly they work quite well for me i feel. Im certain the math proves that false but i do feel they still have a niche in killing primaris marines. any game i have played so far with my lootas against primaris has lead to an angry primaris owner. the ap-1 2dmg is their antichrist from a gun that can score alot of hits/wounds.

I have played approximately 30% fun games 70% local tournaments for games. So far i have won 90% of my games, i know thats anomalous and admittedly some of the people in tournaments are newer/make questionable tactical decisions (im not in a very competitive meta) and a big part of it is theres still people out there who underestimate what we can do, boyz especially. The look on some peoples faces in games with ghazy when i tell them each boy has 6 attacks cuz of buffs and squad size is usually priceless.

I recently started fielding a gorkanaught for the first time and hes been doing quite well for himself but i have yet to face a list spamming Lazcannon, i see alot more plasma. But i think having multiple in your face threats seems to draw concentrated fire away from him, usually there is a trukk with somthing mean inside or a Bwagon to split the fear fireing.

Hopefully these experiences help someone out.


.

I have only played about a dozen games of 8th and I have used Ghaz in all but one of them. When he does get in combat he wrecks face but in a lot of these games, he slowly moves up the board and does not get into combat as everything moves faster than him. Have people usually run him in a mech list and put him in a battlewagon? Or do your opponents move stuff into your face so that his slow speed doesn't matter as much.

I have not used Zhadsnark yet but I do have the model. Do you run him alongside some bikes?

I have yet to use KMCs but am still looking at the artillery rules so when an opponent targets them, I can implement the rules appropriately.

when i march Ghaz he starts at the head of the pack with the boys just slightly behind the first line to avoid being shot, ::::::g::::: like that.
alot of the time i have ran him in eaither a kill tank or a bwagon with nobz, a bunch of extra attacks on nobs is a good ::::::w::::: <- weirdboy
thing especially when they are touting pk's and BC (i usually mix them up).

For Zhad i usually just use him solo, have not had the heart to try bikes for real this edition, still personally reeling from the loss of so much of their survivability and their increase in points.
I think his best use i find is being able to in 1 turn of movement, go support a completely different squad of boyz if he needs, like for example if the squad hes beside rolls a 1 for advance and is now a non viable charger, he can run up beside a different squad with his 21" movment. its also neat to unbalance opponents like that, i have had people stay closer to a squad of orks without warboss support for better fireing ( they expect you cant charge after advancing or will not advance). Hes also good for ensuring something big dies that you also charged with boyz, and hes got a special place in running over small elite squads of infantry, you can expect him to run over a squad of devastators or rangers, scouts, one game where i got to learn about primaris aggressors (SO MANY SHOTS) i had a squad of boyz melted off the table by them and the next turn i said nope and fed them the zhadsnark, (i have used him to take out dark reapers which are the devil this edition), and even if he ends up getting shot off the board the next turn its entirely possible you made your points bake against most targets, but position him properly in relation to their firing units and he will still be alive.

the KMC are great, just use them! take a trukk kit and steal some spark plugs and make 3 or 4, the way it works now is that the grots and guns are seperate units so your grots are protected if they are further away from enemies than the guns themselves are. and at 36" range most of the enemies will be fireing at other gak and when they do fire at guns they can weather a fair bit. Our army does not have access to much that can compare to them. i like to bring many because d6 shots can be pretty swingy.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just so you know, the list is now:

Spoiler:

2 Weirdboy
2x 30 slugga boyz (2 PK) (all I have)
30 shoota boyz (PK) (all I have)
20 Stormboyz (PK) (all I have)
3x KMK (all I have)

Warboss on Bike(BC)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas)
5 Kommandos(2 Burnas) (all I have)
Painboy

I still have these:

Spoiler:

10 nobs
10 grots with runtherd
2 trukks
2 Battlewagons
2 skorcha/trakk/buggies
1 deffchoppa
2 fliers
2 Deffdreads
Thraka
2 big meks
1 more painboy
banner
2 weirdboyz
3 warbikers
2 characters on bike
10 burnas/lootas
10 tankbustas (4 dogs)

I think your list is very competitive. Try it out in real games and get a feel for its strengths and weaknesses. Try out variations of the various character combinations, KFF-mek, Painboy, Banner-nob etc. Happy gaming. But the above list will be very difficult to deal with for many opponents.

GreenTidePackers wrote:
I did the math, somewhere around taking 40 wounds from a -1AP weapon plus, you regain a KFF with bike value (On average, saving 34% more shots vs not being able to save. you take 40 wounds times 34% is 13.6 saved wounds. 8 points per model for stormboyz 13.6 x 8 = 108.8. big mek on bike costs 101 ).

ive only been playing the game for a couple months now, so i dont know ALL the units and all their profiles, but, i know things like stormravens and razorbacks have a lot of shots with -1ap. So, a gman gun line with backs,(with re rolls thanks to gman, youre bascially eating 12 shots at -1. pretty common to see 2-3 razorbacks. So, if you going second, youre defnitely going to be taking more than 40 wounds.

also, at the end of the day, you cant just value a unit purely off its point value. there are some intangibles. what about the times you may make a lot of saves? The opponent also has to make a decision to shoot into a unit with a 5++ vs shooting into something else. What if you have to go second, your stormboyz, most likely, will be taking 2 rounds of shooting.

Like i said, ive only been playing for a couple months, so i havent seen or studied every unit, so i dont know how common a lot of shots with -1ap or higher is, but i think thats worth talking about in this forum. Its definitely one of those units that needs discussion. There can be arguments for both sides.

I think your argument is solid, as I said I think the more stormboyz you have the less likely you'll bring KFFs for them, and I wouldn't fault you for bringing KFFs regardless, they are a good unit. I think there are a number of factors in play; how fast you get into CC, how easy it is to maintain your KFF, and mobility. Mobility is a bit of an intangible, but as a general rule, more bodies = more options for board coverage and multi-charges, which I consider a mobility advantage.

When I deploy, I can fit 90 boyz under 1 KFF pretty easily. That is IMO when KFF is at its best, protecting your deployment when you go second. After that, typically terrain gets in the way, the boyz get different charge distances, sometimes even the order of your chosen moves, and the KFF effectivness drops. And of course, once you are in CC, especially with stormboyz (who can do easy surrounds) the KFF will reduce in effectiveness again since you're not getting shot at as much. So in your example, I think if there are a clean 40 shooting wounds suffered then yes the KFF, even on a bike, is worth it as you described (although TBH I would personally prefer to take the 13 bodies). However, if the opponent splits fire, targets a squad that is not inside KFF, has no ap on their weapons, or does not have the firepower to mow down hordes, your KFF starts to drop in value.

Boyz on the other hand you can more reliably expect to have 40 wounds shot into, due to the deficits of boyz speed vs stormboyz they will simply be stranded in the field for longer, getting shot at for longer. Therefore IMO you have a greater chance of getting effectiveness out of your KFF when you bring boyz instead of stormboyz, and I would lean towards KFF more.

In my experience, the more stormboyz I bring, the less likely they remain cohesive enough and out of CC enough for my KFFs to be worth it, and I typically tend to reduce them. I would rather the reliable 13 wounds from 13 more bodys, those wounds are more effective in their durability. IMO the only time the durability from KFFs are worth it is when you can reliably expect high ap target priority under the bubble AND benefit from the additional bonus of repairing with your big mek (for example, when you have a KMK gun line, you can readily repair the damage they do to themselves while also giving 5++ all game reliably since they don't move). Otherwise I would prefer to have my durability in bodies, not 5++, especially in the case for stormboyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It was 1250. And aren't kommandos really really good?
Expendable points are
12 pts - kustom shootas
24 pts - PKs to BCs

Yeah Kommandos are good, but what are they doing in your army?

You have KMKs to sit backfield on an objective. you have jump and stormboyz to handle flanks, and you have a strong green tide left over charging down the middle. Kommandos might turn up and hang out on an objective, but I think you have the mobility to handle that. its 1250 points and you're bringing 150 bodies give or take (including grots).

I think your army lacks AP and high strength, you're not bringing tankbustas and you have 3 KMK. Boyz are good but not good enough, and PK's are unreliable at 4+ D3. I would prefer the weirdboy supercharged smites in your list, and a painboy or two to keep them healthy. For example, how does this list kill Ogryns or Custodes (pro-tip, boyz don't). What about mulitple T6 units? How does it deal with a few taurox primes at 10 wounds each. The answer is not well, and the kommandos do nothing in shoring up that weakness. You can threaten a lot of space with a few weirdboyz, invulnerable saves on elites will be laughed at, and vehicles will take major damage from the relentless smites while they are tar-pitted by hordes.

edit: I'll note that why I'm leaning toward weirdboyz, is that except for snipers, your list provides them with infinite durability. If a list is out there that outshoots your KMKs (which is a bit easy) then you basically have to ignore heavy units. Without weirdboyz this list never kills a renegade knight. Not enough KMKs to do real damage before they get shot off the table, and some units can just hide out of 36". If I'm honest, the 12 points of kustom shootas means you can fit two weirdboyz instead of painboy + weirdboy, so I would do that instead. One painboy is enough.

My experience is that anti-tank is thoroughly not-needed with a green tide. The PK's and KMKs are are cost efficient additions and I would bring them just because of that. But the list would work very well with no artillery and only choppas. And while Weirdboyz are really good, you can play very well with just two.

And how do you handle a renegade knight, a pair of Russ'es, or a unit of custodes? You ignore them and win on points, which would work in every of those cases. A knight or a squad of custodes would use the majority of the game cutting through a single unit of boyz, which is a perfectly acceptable trade for an Ork player. The only thing you need against those units is lots of bodies. Even grots would work. In fact, the crew from those KMKs are hilariously useful for tieng up a Russ or a unit of custodes for an entire turn.

It is not elite infantry, knights or tanks that kills Orks. The nightmare scenario is when you are thoroughly out-horded. If someone brings 120 Guardsmen and 2 Vultures to a 1250 point game then you are screwed. But there is very little you can do about that.

Also, I wouldn't discount having a few minimum-sized squads of Kommandos. The ability to have a unit appear anywhere on the board is extremely useful when playing maelstrom or ITC missions. I would definitely bring them.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yo, that's really good! Thanks

Thank the author, he's the one that put all the effort into the blog. For reference here's the thread for my list:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/742859.page

Boyz and weirdboyz won me all three games by a landslide.

pismakron wrote:
My experience is that anti-tank is thoroughly not-needed with a green tide. The PK's and KMKs are are cost efficient additions and I would bring them just because of that. But the list would work very well with no artillery and only choppas. And while Weirdboyz are really good, you can play very well with just two.

And how do you handle a renegade knight, a pair of Russ'es, or a unit of custodes? You ignore them and win on points, which would work in every of those cases. A knight or a squad of custodes would use the majority of the game cutting through a single unit of boyz, which is a perfectly acceptable trade for an Ork player. The only thing you need against those units is lots of bodies. Even grots would work. In fact, the crew from those KMKs are hilariously useful for tieng up a Russ or a unit of custodes for an entire turn.

It is not elite infantry, knights or tanks that kills Orks. The nightmare scenario is when you are thoroughly out-horded. If someone brings 120 Guardsmen and 2 Vultures to a 1250 point game then you are screwed. But there is very little you can do about that.

Also, I wouldn't discount having a few minimum-sized squads of Kommandos. The ability to have a unit appear anywhere on the board is extremely useful when playing maelstrom or ITC missions. I would definitely bring them.

We definitely have different experiences in game. I play a list similar to his but at 2k, and I never have trouble with opposing hordes. I've been tabled by Custodes, Stormravens, Vultures, Taurax primes, and Knights. Tar-pitting is effective, but "all game killing one unit of 30" is a slight exaggeration. I do agree the answer can be "don't kill them", hope you get good malestrom cards and the game doesn't go past turn 5, but that vastly limits your options in play. If you can bring a list that DOES have a chance against them I think that is more valuable than 5 orks contesting an objective for half a battle round. Anything that looks at 5 kommandos in a stern way will kill them, so they might be useful in "secure objective" maelstroms, or maybe in "recon" for ITC, but they are free unit deaths in ITC, combined with his already vulnerable KMK unit deaths you'll be giving as many points as you'll be gaining by dropping 5 naked orkz on the board. I think Kommandos shine when half your army is kommandos and they drop as a team to become a full strength flank and bounce off each other's leadership.

Just how viable are Orks without having a huge model count army? I really, really like the Orks character but I do not want to be playing tournaments with 200 model armies.

Msolve wrote:
Just how viable are Orks without having a huge model count army? I really, really like the Orks character but I do not want to be playing tournaments with 200 model armies.

For tournaments? You only have one way to bring a competitive list with less than 180-200 bodies, just include the garg squiggoth. Stil have to bring 100-120 orks anyway, but certainly not as many as they fit in green tides.

Quick question for you fine folks, and I didn't want to start a whole new thread in YMDC for it.

Regarding big choppas on Nobz: do you guys model them with the proper big choppa, which I assume is the two-handed one that comes in the nob box, or do you just use the regular choppa in the Nobz box (which is bigger than the boyz choppa anyway) and run it as either/ or?

Just curious as I assemble a couple of Adepticon armies.

Either double-handed choppa bit or just two choppas.

I use the models with the the big choppa, but I prefer to model mine holding it one-handed so the other arm can hold a shoota, which costs no points.

The AoS 'Ard Boyz kit has a bunch of two-handed choppas on models that are Nob size, but their arms are different than Nob arms and it would take some converting to get it right.

Every nobz box has 4 big choppas (three two-handed, one one-handed) and one can be found in the warbiker's box (one-handed).

It should not be hard to get those bits online, since people used to built all nobz with PKs and the nobz sprues have been in almost every bundle after AOBR.

You can also model a big choppa by cutting a regular axe-like choppa in half and putting a toothpick between the two halfs. Then attach it to the back of a nob instead of the now defunct boss pole.

On the topic of converting nobz, what are people using as banner nob? Is it likely there will be a new kit for this one?

Nora wrote:
On the topic of converting nobz, what are people using as banner nob? Is it likely there will be a new kit for this one?

My waaagh banner is a combination (bitz cut and repositioned) of a regular choppa, two boss poles and the big icon from the battlewagon. A few other bitz like skulls to add some details.

Nora wrote:
On the topic of converting nobz, what are people using as banner nob? Is it likely there will be a new kit for this one?

Flash git body, Black Ork banner arm, regular nob arm with AOBR Warboss Kombi shoota.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
The AoS 'Ard Boyz kit has a bunch of two-handed choppas on models that are Nob size, but their arms are different than Nob arms and it would take some converting to get it right.

They work pretty well as Nobz just with a few additions. The tusked helmets can be turned into gas masks simply by cutting the tusks off and gluing a small slice of hollow plastic-card tube onto the base. The addition of a little bit of razor wire gives their weapons a much more 40K look, quite aside from making them look more brutal. Then just add gubbins like sidearms and stickbombs which most of us will have in droves lying around, and you've got Nobz!

 Blackie wrote:

Msolve wrote:
Just how viable are Orks without having a huge model count army? I really, really like the Orks character but I do not want to be playing tournaments with 200 model armies.

For tournaments? You only have one way to bring a competitive list with less than 180-200 bodies, just include the garg squiggoth. Stil have to bring 100-120 orks anyway, but certainly not as many as they fit in green tides.

The issue with horde armies in tourneys that are not static (IE guard) are time. It takes forever to move all those models. Nids are the same way.

Since we are talking about Nobz. I noticed that shootaz are free, and you don't need to give up your close combat weapon. Has anyone tried nobz with just shootas and ammo runts? If so, how did it go and how did you model it?

 Glane wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
The AoS 'Ard Boyz kit has a bunch of two-handed choppas on models that are Nob size, but their arms are different than Nob arms and it would take some converting to get it right.

They work pretty well as Nobz just with a few additions. The tusked helmets can be turned into gas masks simply by cutting the tusks off and gluing a small slice of hollow plastic-card tube onto the base. The addition of a little bit of razor wire gives their weapons a much more 40K look, quite aside from making them look more brutal. Then just add gubbins like sidearms and stickbombs which most of us will have in droves lying around, and you've got Nobz!

Spoiler:

I like the gas masks, good job!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geemoney wrote:
Since we are talking about Nobz. I noticed that shootaz are free, and you don't need to give up your close combat weapon. Has anyone tried nobz with just shootas and ammo runts? If so, how did it go and how did you model it?

A pretty common Nob backpack accessory is a shoota in a scabbard. I think most competitive players give all of their Nobz shootas.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
Since we are talking about Nobz. I noticed that shootaz are free, and you don't need to give up your close combat weapon. Has anyone tried nobz with just shootas and ammo runts? If so, how did it go and how did you model it?

A pretty common Nob backpack accessory is a shoota in a scabbard. I think most competitive players give all of their Nobz shootas.

That's exactly what I did when building my Big Choppa Nobz.
Use the two handed choppas, with the shootas on their back.

 Geemoney wrote:
Since we are talking about Nobz. I noticed that shootaz are free, and you don't need to give up your close combat weapon. Has anyone tried nobz with just shootas and ammo runts? If so, how did it go and how did you model it?

Taking Nobs to only use Shootas and Choppas seems like a waste but it is the cheapest way to run them. I know it'll be rubbish but I want to try max Nobs with Kustom Shootas and Ammo Runts using the DakkaDakkaDakka strat. Feels like it would do better than statistically it should.

I tend to take a mix of 1 or 2 base Nobz, 1 or 2 BCs or Power Stabbas and 1 or 2 PK in my Nob groups. All have shootas and Ammo Runts if possible.

Lost my first game by about 1-2 points (ITC missions).

Sooo turns out... 30 deepstriking super gaunts(90 shots) that shoot twice are pretty good. I lost 70 models turn 1. However with the rest I still managed to drag the game out to us only having 4-5 units(my characters and goblin gunners, his very wounded characters, russ and manticore with no missles) Really close game despite losing 70 models turn 1 - I'd say that's not too bad.

However, how do Orks even avoid that? No access to scout, no real screen, per say. Gaunts Deepstrike within 9'' and have 18'' range... Hm...

Also the painboy did literally nothing other than hurt himself basically. 0 6+++ made

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lost my first game by about 1-2 points (ITC missions).

Sooo turns out... 30 deepstriking super gaunts(90 shots) that shoot twice are pretty good. I lost 70 models turn 1. However with the rest I still managed to drag the game out to us only having 4-5 units(my characters and goblin gunners, his very wounded characters, russ and manticore with no missles) Really close game despite losing 70 models turn 1 - I'd say that's not too bad.

However, how do Orks even avoid that? No access to scout, no real screen, per say. Gaunts Deepstrike within 9'' and have 18'' range... Hm...

Also the painboy did literally nothing other than hurt himself basically. 0 6+++ made

You make those 6+++ saves.

Did you take out your KFF Mek? Didn't he help at all with the Gauntopalyspe?

Yeah, I tried my 3rd list. I rolled real bad on saves. But great on charges...
Still. 90 S4 shots will obliterate 25+ models on average.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lost my first game by about 1-2 points (ITC missions).

Sooo turns out... 30 deepstriking super gaunts(90 shots) that shoot twice are pretty good. I lost 70 models turn 1. However with the rest I still managed to drag the game out to us only having 4-5 units(my characters and goblin gunners, his very wounded characters, russ and manticore with no missles) Really close game despite losing 70 models turn 1 - I'd say that's not too bad.

However, how do Orks even avoid that? No access to scout, no real screen, per say. Gaunts Deepstrike within 9'' and have 18'' range... Hm...

Also the painboy did literally nothing other than hurt himself basically. 0 6+++ made

1) We have excellent sacrificial screens in Gretchin or widely spaced boyz, but we have no scout moves and no way of infiltrating units. So we have very few options against the alpha-deepstrike. What we do is the following:

Deploy backwards, behind a thin sacrificial line of chaff. It has severe penalties, because you are essentially giving up 9-10" of table space. The good thing is that you know when you have second turn, and when your opponent deploys stuff into reserves.

Deploy half of you own army into reserves. This means brining LOTS of kommandos.

Bring enough bodies to eat the damage. Losing 70 models in a 1250 points game is a bit extreme, but in a 2000 point game you will usually lose 60+ boyz in the first turn. That is what I count on losing against the Guilliman parking lot

Wait for the codex, where we will hopefully get a the means of scouting or infiltrating

2) If you lose 70 models in the first turn, then the painboy should save 12 on average, earning his points back and more. Also, if you end up with severely wounded characters, then a painboy would have been very useful. But if the painboy is not working for YOU then you should try something else in your next game. The KFF-mek or perhaps 10 more wounds.

3) How did he make them shoot twice?

We can easily lose 70 models in a 750 point game against shooty nids before we get to move. 90 devourer gaunts will do that, even without shooting twice.

 JimOnMars wrote:
We can easily lose 70 models in a 750 point game against shooty nids before we get to move. 90 devourer gaunts will do that, even without shooting twice.

I think it was 30 devourer gants, not 90. 90 devourer-gants is 720 points. Not easy to fit into a 750 points list.

True. 800 then.

2CP to make gaunts shoot twice.
The painboy thing was just bad luck ofc. Still, I think I need two. I could not really congoline all units to his 3'' bubble. We have BIG pieces of impassable terrain. AND that was hammer and anvil. It I had a bigger deployment zone - I don't even know.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lost my first game by about 1-2 points (ITC missions).

Sooo turns out... 30 deepstriking super gaunts(90 shots) that shoot twice are pretty good. I lost 70 models turn 1. However with the rest I still managed to drag the game out to us only having 4-5 units(my characters and goblin gunners, his very wounded characters, russ and manticore with no missles) Really close game despite losing 70 models turn 1 - I'd say that's not too bad.

However, how do Orks even avoid that? No access to scout, no real screen, per say. Gaunts Deepstrike within 9'' and have 18'' range... Hm...

Also the painboy did literally nothing other than hurt himself basically. 0 6+++ made

Hey well done mate, 1-2 ITC points loss vs a top tier army for your first game is pretty good IMO.
Gaunts with 18' range should only do that sort of damage once. But yeah that's not fun. There's really no way around it, as people are saying, and you can expect that sort of damage from most shooty lists. What a lot of peoples answer is resorting to more bodies, it's fairly tried and true. We don't have "answers" like you're asking, but neat deployments and not having holes in your KFF/Painboy bubbles does help (if you're bringing them). Basically your goal is to not provide good target priority. Also, if you're playing table size 6'x4' at 1250 points, I think you're fethed, that is not balanced for walking across the table and puts you at a significant disadvantage vs anything that shoots (so basically anything).

Noooooo. I forgot +1 attack for 20+ boyz. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I think... I think I could've won despite losing 70 models turn one... Wow. Orks are pretty BS

Maybe just try bringing Grotsnik instead of a pain boy.

I'm just as awesome as you are with 6+++ saves and often mange to finish games without succeeding a single one. In that case Grotsnik still has the profile of a warboss and might make his points back by simply punching stuff to death. Due to his tripple-save, he is also one of the few models that we have that can go toe to toe with some mid sized melee models and survive, while a regular warboss might get stomped flat by a dread or daemon prince.
Don't expect him to stop close combat specialists with lots of attacks though.

I like the painboy with green tides, IMHO he adds a lot. His 6++ becomes something if you have 100+ bodies in his aura, considering the entire game, and it's still ad additional pk or killsaw on a 4W character to dispose of. For 53-55 points he's great for those kind of lists. He's also one of the cheapest but efficient elite choices we have, a must take if you want to field a green tide brigade. Certainly better than the banner and more effective than min units of kommandos, while bigger squads are not cheap at all. In my green tide brigade I had 2 doks and a large units of kommandos as elites.

Mad Dok is a bit different, he costs almost 50% more than a standard painboy and his aura is exactly the same as the one granted by standard doks. You pay those points not for his bonuses but for his profile, he's more durable and more killy, which means you have to throw him into combat to make him shine comparing to a standard painboy. I think he matches better with lists that rely on transports. A standard warboss with pk is cheaper than grotsnik though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Noooooo. I forgot +1 attack for 20+ boyz. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I think... I think I could've won despite losing 70 models turn one... Wow. Orks are pretty BS

Bummer. I am sure your opponent did NOT forget to reroll wound rolls of 1 because of 20+ termagants. The attack bonus is actually even better now that we have the mob-up stratagem.

I think a big part of the value of the painboy comes from healing characters. Healing 4 wounds on Ghaz or letting a Weirdboy make another D6 smite is enough to earn his points back. The 6+++ can be okaish, but there is an opportunity cost to conga-lining that needs to be taken into account.

I hope we get infiltrating Gretchin in the codex.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Noooooo. I forgot +1 attack for 20+ boyz. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I think... I think I could've won despite losing 70 models turn one... Wow. Orks are pretty BS

I guess we'll never know. No, Orks aren't BS, I'll remind you that you're taking the best list Orks have access to. If you want to see just how BS we are why not take those 3 Bikers and Trukk? Throw in the Battlewagon for lulz. In fact, take any model you like the look of, rather than spamming our only unit that works well and let us all know how you do in your tournament then.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Noooooo. I forgot +1 attack for 20+ boyz. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I think... I think I could've won despite losing 70 models turn one... Wow. Orks are pretty BS

I guess we'll never know. No, Orks aren't BS, I'll remind you that you're taking the best list Orks have access to. If you want to see just how BS we are why not take those 3 Bikers and Trukk? Throw in the Battlewagon for lulz. In fact, take any model you like the look of, rather than spamming our only unit that works well and let us all know how you do in your tournament then.

Please stop this pointless argument. We all know that orks has a strong build and a strong FW model and little else. Bickering changes nothing.

pismakron wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Noooooo. I forgot +1 attack for 20+ boyz. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I think... I think I could've won despite losing 70 models turn one... Wow. Orks are pretty BS

I guess we'll never know. No, Orks aren't BS, I'll remind you that you're taking the best list Orks have access to. If you want to see just how BS we are why not take those 3 Bikers and Trukk? Throw in the Battlewagon for lulz. In fact, take any model you like the look of, rather than spamming our only unit that works well and let us all know how you do in your tournament then.

Please stop this pointless argument. We all know that orks has a strong build and a strong FW model and little else. Bickering changes nothing.

Claiming Orks are "BS" does not indicate that "we all know that Orks has a strong build and a strong FW model and little else".

I fought against one of the best armies in a game with a codex. We both had great lists. I got alpha struck to all hell and with that buff, I think I could've won. Now if I had a codex.... ooooooooh boy.

And why would I take terrible units, lol.

I think there is more nuance to Orkz than people give credit. In game strategy can be as complex as list building, and that includes remembering your rules. Your narrow losses will be wins after you play this army for a few months. Especially in ITC.

If I'm honest, I don't expect the codex will buff the units you bring in your particular army, but getting stratagems and chapter tactics will probably increase your win-rate by 20%.

You haven't posted your opponents list so we have no idea how competitive it was. I wouldn't expect the units you're using to get buffs in the codex, you'll be lucky if they're not nerfed to be honest. Particularly KMKs. Maybe Boyz will get some passive buffs through our equivalent to chapter tactics and stratagems.

And units shouldn't be terrible, lol.

There should actually be a difficult decision when deciding what to take and it's idiots shouting about how "amazing", "great" or even "fine" Orks are that do nothing to help us. We have a decent mono-build list, that is it. It's equivalent to only Tzeench demons being playable and having the units from other gods be useless - I'm sure all the Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh players would have something to say.

Not everyone wants to play Footslogging Boyz and when you come to play a 2000 pt game you'll struggle to finish with our most competitive list as it stands now in most tournament settings. But what do I know, you've played one whole competitive game at 1250 pts so I guess you know all there is to know about Orks now. I'm sure you'd have definitely won if only you'd remembered Green Tide. Maybe next time.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You haven't posted your opponents list so we have no idea how competitive it was. I wouldn't expect the units you're using to get buffs in the codex, you'll be lucky if they're not nerfed to be honest. Particularly KMKs. Maybe Boyz will get some passive buffs through our equivalent to chapter tactics and stratagems.

And units shouldn't be terrible, lol.

There should actually be a difficult decision when deciding what to take and it's idiots shouting about how "amazing", "great" or even "fine" Orks are that do nothing to help us. We have a decent mono-build list, that is it. It's equivalent to only Tzeench demons being playable and having the units from other gods be useless - I'm sure all the Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh players would have something to say.

Not everyone wants to play Footslogging Boyz and when you come to play a 2000 pt game you'll struggle to finish with our most competitive list as it stands now in most tournament settings. But what do I know, you've played one whole competitive game at 1250 pts so I guess you know all there is to know about Orks now. I'm sure you'd have definitely won if only you'd remembered Green Tide. Maybe next time.

I personally would prefer this thread to be about how to play the best army we have, when discussing that army what are the best nuanced things we can do with it. When this thread becomes complaining that the best thing we have is "boring" I don't think that is strategic, tactical, or helpful. I think those discussions belong in a more general thread instead of the only thread we have to discuss tactics.

"And units shouldn't be terrible, lol."

Really? Who would ever think that. Terrible units need to exist so people feel bad about their cool models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And now that I have 3 armies I can tell you:

AdMech - why do I have to go Mars: Cawl and DakKastelans :( (and take astra militarum)
Daemons - why do I have to go brimstones, changeling, character spam :( (and take CSM eq)
Orks - why do I have to go green tide :(




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I fought the tournament favorite with his best list for a practice match with an army I have never played.

That said.... I will NOT take Orks to the tournament, because:
1) I'm too inexperienced with them.
2) 1 hour per player time limit

Here come the brothers of destruction list then (you know which brothers) ^_^

hollow one wrote:

I personally would prefer this thread to be about how to play the best army we have, when discussing that army what are the best nuanced things we can do with it. When this thread becomes complaining that the best thing we have is "boring" I don't think that is strategic, tactical, or helpful. I think those discussions belong in a more general thread instead of the only thread we have to discuss tactics.

So would I but there are only so many ways people can say "take more Boyz". You'll notice a couple if pages back I asked for the discussion to focus on bikes and their virtues. All I got back is how many Boyz I could get for their price, how overly expensive the bike upgrade is and why Boyz perform so much better. All very true and pertinent points. To take a unit other than massed Boyz/Storm Boyz and maybe Kommandos is to self nerf to the point that you're no longer playing competitively.

There isn't much to say on our current viable list in terms of tactical nuance that hasn't already been said. Advance up the field. Stay in your buff bubbles. Use da jump and smite where possible. Daisy chain buffs if you're feeling kinky. Remember your rules. It's the same gak we've been doing for every edition since 3rd.

Its even been discussed how best to use grot crews of mek guns for feths sake. I think we are at blood outta stone territory if you're expecting much in the way of new tactical information until our codex drops.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

hollow one wrote:

I personally would prefer this thread to be about how to play the best army we have, when discussing that army what are the best nuanced things we can do with it. When this thread becomes complaining that the best thing we have is "boring" I don't think that is strategic, tactical, or helpful. I think those discussions belong in a more general thread instead of the only thread we have to discuss tactics.

So would I but there are only so many ways people can say "take more Boyz". You'll notice a couple if pages back I asked for the discussion to focus on bikes and their virtues. All I got back is how many Boyz I could get for their price, how overly expensive the bike upgrade is and why Boyz perform so much better. All very true and pertinent points. To take a unit other than massed Boyz/Storm Boyz and maybe Kommandos is to self nerf to the point that you're no longer playing competitively.

There isn't much to say on our current viable list in terms of tactical nuance that hasn't already been said. Advance up the field. Stay in your buff bubbles. Use da jump and smite where possible. Daisy chain buffs if you're feeling kinky. Remember your rules. It's the same gak we've been doing for every edition since 3rd.

Its even been discussed how best to use grot crews of mek guns for feths sake. I think we are at blood outta stone territory if you're expecting much in the way of new tactical information until our codex drops.

Im still waiting for someone to mob up, warpath and da jump 20meganobz, not that there is much further tactics to discuss in such a strategy. I dont have the models to try it. I'd guess the rest of the list would be for screen removal...

Hi, long time follower of the thread but I don't post here much. So I know the drill, boyz > anything else at the moment.
However, this will be a bit of a challenge for you kunnin but brutal tacticians out there. I'm looking on advice for a bit of themed list that wont flop, will play quickly and should make some nice narrative events. I don't want to crush my opponents but give them a bit of a anxiety complex!

The background:
Last year, near the end of 7th when i'd got a good grip on ork strengths and weaknesses, I went to games weekend with my brother where we each took 900pts (1800 total split evenly) and played 5 other pairs (WHW battle brothers). We took a super aggressive list that was hugely fun and quick to play. I took 3 meganob missiles with minimum meganobz, backed up by 29 boyz, nob with BP and PK + pain boyz and sacrificial mek + 3 defkoptas. My brother, took a khorne based list, 3 mauler fiends, 2 small squads of bikes kharn the betrayer with some berserkers in a rhino and couple of other things I cant remember. The idea was a 1-2 punch completely ignoring objectives. Meganobz turboosted in their trukks in turn 1, absorbed silly amounts of hate (i.e. firepower) disembarking out of LoS when the trukks died, the trukks blocked movement and avenues of escape for opponent and turn 2, the hosts of khorne were on your doorstep. it was surprisingly effective considering we were expecting it to get blown off the table as often as not. against certain list we knew it would die on its ass but as it turned out the lists we drew it turned out pretty well and all our opponents told us they enjoyed playing against it as it was a bit different to a lot of things at the event. I think it worked as we saturated the game with medium/light vehicles and difficult choices as to the threats. Do you ignore the trucks and take out the Maulers before they make contact turn 2, letting the megnobz tie up everything and trucks to block lines of fire. Or focus the trucks and meganobz then take your chances with 3 maulerfiends and kharn punching their way through your lines. All good fun, scary yet totally beatable with good target prioritisation. however the opponents were often a bit overwhelmed by all the immediate threats and chose poorly.


Lists:
Since we enjoyed the style of game we played (hyper aggressive) and was our most fun at one of these events we'd like to do the same this year. From the khorne side we're looking at 3 squads of berserkers (18 in all) and kharn + lord in 2 rhinos plus a mauler fiend (3 drops). Again he will be aiming to munch his way through the opponents army from turn 2 onwards. So my list should be trying to get into the opponents face early on.

I just don't have the points for the same as last year (3 meganob missiles + 3 defkoptas alone would cost 870 before toyz + HQs).

The list I've got so far
warboss with PK
warboss with BC on bike
4x trukks (BS +wreckin ball)
3x 11boyz + BC nob
1x 10 boyz + BC nob.
3 warbikers

The boyz + warboss on foot ride in trukks. warboss on bike applied where aura is needed with the bikes providing him a little extra screening. I know the boyz squads will not do great damage but if they are all dead turn 3 I wont care as 18 berserkers + kharn will be carving their way through the lines. The trukks are a real points sink but will aim to multi charge units causing the opponent to withdraw and take away some incoming shooting. (9 drops across both armies)

Also I'd like to avoid psykers for thematic reasons (kharn would likely murder any wierdboyz I have!). This rules out our best delivery method but I think we allhave seen enough comments about taking boyz + wierdboyz ad nauseum.

My concern is this list is just a little too flimsy a couple of good dmg rolls and I'm stuck with about 40 boyz footslogging. I'm not aiming for super competitive but something that works would be fun any tips would be great. I've got an alternative list.

An alternative I came up with was
G.squiggoth (2 twin big shoota + 2 big zappa)
big mek + BC and KFF
Snikrot
5 nobz, 1 with PK 4 x BC, all with kustom shootas and 4 ammo runts
2x 5 tank bustas

All ride in the squiggoth with the 5++ except snikrot. He can act independently and engage soft targets. (Also I've yet to use the conversion I've done of him). Everyone stays in the G squiggoth shooting out. If/when the squiggoth dies the nobz should be in position to do some decent damage or they could jump out turn 3 to join in the slaughter. tank bustas can run for some ruins with the big mek and continue to fire over the heads of the advancing berserkers. This is very much eggs in 1 basket but with 5 drops for the entire 2 armies we should bag good chances of going first.

Anyhow, tips or things to improve efficiency all very much appreciated. I'm trying to keep the hyper aggressive theme, prefer to finish the games around turn 3 at these events as its nice to share a pint with opponents in bugmans whilst waiting for the next game though and each game is allotted 2.5 hrs. there is no prize, and no real glory for whoever wins so enjoyment is the aim. I know I've put a lot of restrictions in but perhaps someone out there might have some nice ideas.

The aggressive theme is fine for 900 points armies in some metas that are not extremely competitive but still quite serious.

I'd take buggies, especially skorchas over bikes since they can outflank and they're also cheaper. Two warbosses are probably too many for 900 points, I'd drop the biker boss and replace him with a biker mek with KFF which makes your trukks a bit more durable. You may also try to cut 2 trukks and use a BW instead, which can carry 2x10 boyz or a bigger unit of 19 that is joined by the warboss. Basically the same points but one lesser drop and T8.

Warboss with headwoppa killchoppa
Big mek with bike, KFF and big choppa
2x12 boyz with pk in trukks
19 boyz with pk
Battlewagon with 'ard case
2 skorchas

900 points.

New Top Tier Tournament list for Orkz. Able to win every game it plays.

HQ: Weirdboy
Elites: 4x Herders w/hound
Troops: 20x 30 Grotz

There, new tactic. Just fill the entire fething board with Grotz and deny the enemy a chance to deploy reserves in our area and just hold the objectives by sheer weight of numbers. Good Luck Girlyman gun line remove 600 Grots who are basically immune to leadership tests.

 Blackie wrote:
The aggressive theme is fine for 900 points armies in some metas that are not extremely competitive but still quite serious.

I'd take buggies, especially skorchas over bikes since they can outflank and they're also cheaper. Two warbosses are probably too many for 900 points, I'd drop the biker boss and replace him with a biker mek with KFF which makes your trukks a bit more durable. You may also try to cut 2 trukks and use a BW instead, which can carry 2x10 boyz or a bigger unit of 19 that is joined by the warboss. Basically the same points but one lesser drop and T8.

Warboss with headwoppa killchoppa
Big mek with bike, KFF and big choppa
2x12 boyz with pk in trukks
19 boyz with pk
Battlewagon with 'ard case
2 skorchas

900 points.

Brilliant ideas Blackie, thank you for the appliance of your mental juices to my list building. I really like it. I currently don't have a BW, skorchas or Bigmek on bike but I have a few months to get them built and painted. I've been hoping and praying for a new buggy/skorcha kit for a while, I guess I need to just get on and convert some.

SemperMortis wrote:
New Top Tier Tournament list for Orkz. Able to win every game it plays.

HQ: Weirdboy
Elites: 4x Herders w/hound
Troops: 20x 30 Grotz

There, new tactic. Just fill the entire fething board with Grotz and deny the enemy a chance to deploy reserves in our area and just hold the objectives by sheer weight of numbers. Good Luck Girlyman gun line remove 600 Grots who are basically immune to leadership tests.

You jest, but this list has some serious advantages:

1) Surprise factor. Nobody uses more than a few dozen grots, so you can catch people unawares when you start placing grots on the table and don’t stop placing grots on the table until they’re past finished deploying their army.

2) Shock factor. “Your army is 600 what?” If your opponent pulls a Chryssipus and dies of laughter, then they’ll be unable to setup their minis and be disqualified for slow play.

3) Fatigue. Your opponent has to remove over 600 models one way or another to table you. That’s a lot of picking up models. The sheer annoyance of having to remove everything will take it’s toll on your opponent, meanwhile because all your units can’t shoot further than 12” and most of it doesn’t want to be in melee, you’re basically playing a tabletop marching simulator. If you use movement trays your turns could involve as few dice rolls as a GK army, and be much faster to play than a conventional MSU army. Heck, your shooting is so anemic you can even skip it entirely if you’re pressed for time.

4) Simplicity. Need an army but haven’t memorized the entire index yet? Now you only need to bookmark 3 pages and you’re good to spend all your mental energy on remembering what your opponent’s stuff does.

5) Price. There are loads of the 2nd edition grot minis with the silly-looking Viking helmet and the oversized blocky grot rifle for cheap on eBay. If you don’t mind an army that looks like gak or if you get discounts in bulk, it could be fairly cost-effective. And nobody is going to critique the paintjob of more than a couple of units nearest to them.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

hollow one wrote:

I personally would prefer this thread to be about how to play the best army we have, when discussing that army what are the best nuanced things we can do with it. When this thread becomes complaining that the best thing we have is "boring" I don't think that is strategic, tactical, or helpful. I think those discussions belong in a more general thread instead of the only thread we have to discuss tactics.

So would I but there are only so many ways people can say "take more Boyz". You'll notice a couple if pages back I asked for the discussion to focus on bikes and their virtues. All I got back is how many Boyz I could get for their price, how overly expensive the bike upgrade is and why Boyz perform so much better. All very true and pertinent points. To take a unit other than massed Boyz/Storm Boyz and maybe Kommandos is to self nerf to the point that you're no longer playing competitively.

There isn't much to say on our current viable list in terms of tactical nuance that hasn't already been said. Advance up the field. Stay in your buff bubbles. Use da jump and smite where possible. Daisy chain buffs if you're feeling kinky. Remember your rules. It's the same gak we've been doing for every edition since 3rd.

Its even been discussed how best to use grot crews of mek guns for feths sake. I think we are at blood outta stone territory if you're expecting much in the way of new tactical information until our codex drops.

Yeah mate I was part of that discussion, I recommended comparing bikes to Dakkajets, which was a more reasonable comparison and one where I think the plane wins. And no, the nuance has not been discussed in here at all. Lets say we bring the most basic of all lists, weirdboyz and boyz ONLY, from what I've read there has been no discussion on how it plays out. What does it kill really well? What are its weaknesses? what should we avoid on the board, what do we need to tar-pit? what sort of formation is most effective? When do you jump? is turn 1 suicide a boyz squad always correct? do you bring weirdboyz inside the boyz? Who has posted a bat-rep of this army and has sparked a strategic discussion about mis-plays e.g. "I targetted the stormravens with my smites but it was a bad choice, I should be able to kill it or ignore it, otherwise it flys away".

And obviously this is just with two types of units. I think my army is competitive and I bring 6+ types of units; boyz, stormboyz, tankbustahs, weirdboyz, KMKs, a dakkajet, and some HQ. It's REALLY hard to play. Last game I played I realised that I could force my opponent to kill my dakkajet if I flew it in front of a flank of mek gun grotts, since it will cleanly protect them by being the closest unit. That's a big deal for me, free's up my stormboyz to be used more aggressively and forces my opponent to shoot the most durable thing in my army. I hadn't considered that before. I don't even know if I'm using my stormboyz right, honestly.

I bet any expert of the game would pickup my army and play it better than me, but I don't know how and under what circumstances. For example a few pages back someone said that rvd's army's weakeness was hordes, whereas for me hordes are a sure win (I run an army similar to rvd's). Why do we have such opposite opinions? Clearly we are playing differently. What is going on? I desperately want to understand my army more, but I don't know what questions to ask and I am not gleaning clever play tips from this thread. I'm reading a lot of list building advice, but as far as everyone is considered that is "solved". I asked a tonne of questions back when I posted my list for an upcoming tournament, and Jidmah was the only person who gave me responses (thanks bro), everyone else continued talking about how the DDD! stratagem was terrible.

hollow one wrote:
Yeah mate I was part of that discussion, I recommended comparing bikes to Dakkajets, which was a more reasonable comparison and one where I think the plane wins. And no, the nuance has not been discussed in here at all. Lets say we bring the most basic of all lists, weirdboyz and boyz ONLY, from what I've read there has been no discussion on how it plays out. What does it kill really well? What are its weaknesses? what should we avoid on the board, what do we need to tar-pit? what sort of formation is most effective? When do you jump? is turn 1 suicide a boyz squad always correct? do you bring weirdboyz inside the boyz? Who has posted a bat-rep of this army and has sparked a strategic discussion about mis-plays e.g. "I targetted the stormravens with my smites but it was a bad choice, I should be able to kill it or ignore it, otherwise it flys away".

And obviously this is just with two types of units. I think my army is competitive and I bring 6+ types of units; boyz, stormboyz, tankbustahs, weirdboyz, KMKs, a dakkajet, and some HQ. It's REALLY hard to play. Last game I played I realised that I could force my opponent to kill my dakkajet if I flew it in front of a flank of mek gun grotts, since it will cleanly protect them by being the closest unit. That's a big deal for me, free's up my stormboyz to be used more aggressively and forces my opponent to shoot the most durable thing in my army. I hadn't considered that before. I don't even know if I'm using my stormboyz right, honestly.

I bet any expert of the game would pickup my army and play it better than me, but I don't know how and under what circumstances. For example a few pages back someone said that rvd's army's weakeness was hordes, whereas for me hordes are a sure win (I run an army similar to rvd's). Why do we have such opposite opinions? Clearly we are playing differently. What is going on? I desperately want to understand my army more, but I don't know what questions to ask and I am not gleaning clever play tips from this thread. I'm reading a lot of list building advice, but as far as everyone is considered that is "solved". I asked a tonne of questions back when I posted my list for an upcoming tournament, and Jidmah was the only person who gave me responses (thanks bro), everyone else continued talking about how the DDD! stratagem was terrible.

If you actually want feedback on how to play with specific units and in what circumstances you'll need to elaborate. What do you play against generally? What have you struggled with and under what circumstances? The general competitive list that Orks can run, is not an "insta-win button" despite what others may claim. It struggles against gun-lines particularly when against good players who position well. It struggles against Storm Ravens and other powerful flying units. I find that it struggles with Eldar lists (that contain a ton of models with flyer keyword). The reason it struggles is because you can't lock them in combat or catch them as half as easy as you can non-flying units.

Regarding your questions on the Weirdboyz and Boyz I think you'll find this (that was posted a few pages back) illuminating; https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com

You Jump each and every turn you need to. The decision to Jump is one that is entirely dependent on the in-game situation.

If you want us to discuss your list in detail, post it again and see what responses you get. Be more specific with what you find works well and (more importantly) what you're struggling with. Posting for tactical advice when CA is round the corner wasn't the best move to get you noticed and I'm not even sure I had joined the forum at that point. There comes a point of course when you're just going to have to learn your list, learn your opponents strengths and weaknesses and play to them. The only way to get that is through experience.

Hey guys, just finished a 2v1 2500 pts game. Dark Angels and Orks (me) against Nids. I had a lot of models missing (mostly grots) so I couldn't field mek gunz.

My list:
Zhadsnark
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump
Big Mek on bike w/ KFF
Painboy w/ Grot
2x 30 Choppa Boyz w/ PK Nob
1x 12 Grots
3x 1 Skorcha
2x Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha

Dark Angels: Azazel (or whatever his name is), 10 deepstriking shooty termis, 5 hellblasters, 6 shooty bikes, a shooty land speeder...

Tyranids: 2 flyrants, broodlord, 9 more psychers, genestealers, hormagaunts, ravenous swarms...

Nids won the game 11 to 10 after game 5, was really close, could have gone either way.

Comments:
1) Everything except the gretchins and skorchas were in the KFF bubble (with the painboy for the infantries). Worked well but the nids had not a lot of shooty stuff. I don't know if the Big mek paid his points... He did kill a few genestealer, though.
2) Gretchins were great for preventing deepstriking units and taking smite damage. I need more!
3) Why the heck did I chose Da Jump instead of Warpath... I didn't Jump anything, not enough jumping targets (60 boyz) and the nids were running towards us.
4) I didn't like skorchas. Arriving from anywhere and not being able to shoot anything? I would prefer buggies I think, even though their shooting is negligible... But they are faster, that 2" might be worth it sometimes.
5) Big trakks were empty because nids don't have vehicles so tankbustas seemed wasted. Against a non-shooty army, they were really good. Finished the game at full health, they wrecked face. ~8 autohits S6 AP-2 D1? Yes please! You only need to keep them away from close combat, obviously people will want to engage them via pile in. Outside of tankbustas, I don't see what we could put inside (shooty unit with assault weapons).
6) Painboy, I didn't manage a lot of 6+++ saves (and against multi-damage wounds that's useless), but healing Zhadsnark every turn was godsend.
7) The pile in move seems a bit broken. My squad of boyz was engaged against a psycher, but my PK nob was far away from it. I wanted to pile in my nob towards the psycher so he could fight, but I couldn't since another enemy model was closer. But I could not pile in towards this closer model because it would break coherency. So my PK was sitting there, doing nothing, scratching his butt with his PK...
8) Psycher spam is so strong. Nids had 7 different psycher character/unit. Termis were dying like flies. I would gladly replace the weirdboy staff for a 3++ save (like the neurothropes and venomthropes have)...

Any thoughts?

Ashkayel wrote:
3) Why the heck did I chose Da Jump instead of Warpath... I didn't Jump anything, not enough jumping targets (60 boyz) and the nids were running towards us.

For lists that have little to no units worth jumping, I tend to skip entirely on the weird boy now. You could also try to include a suicidal unit of tank bustaz and jump that onto his zoanthropes to blow them up. Every unsaved wound is a dead psyker.

4) I didn't like skorchas. Arriving from anywhere and not being able to shoot anything? I would prefer buggies I think, even though their shooting is negligible... But they are faster, that 2" might be worth it sometimes.

Just deploy them onto the board with your amy. They are reasonably tough to weather some shooting and they can still shoot after advancing. In my experience they work a lot better that way because 12" move + d6 advance + 9" range means they can pretty much be anywhere in turn 1. Outflank is pretty useless, I stopped using it for skorchas.

5) Big trakks were empty because nids don't have vehicles so tankbustas seemed wasted. Against a non-shooty army, they were really good. Finished the game at full health, they wrecked face. ~8 autohits S6 AP-2 D1? Yes please! You only need to keep them away from close combat, obviously people will want to engage them via pile in. Outside of tankbustas, I don't see what we could put inside (shooty unit with assault weapons).

Even if you don't get re-rolls, you still have bunch of rokkits, a tank busta bomb and bomb squigs which hit monsters on 2+ just like vehicles. If you don't plan on disembarking, maybe a pair of rokkit pistols might help to discourage charges. Outside of that, nobz would probably be your next best bet.

8) Psycher spam is so strong. Nids had 7 different psycher character/unit. Termis were dying like flies. I would gladly replace the weirdboy staff for a 3++ save (like the neurothropes and venomthropes have)...

Yes it is. However, your army had a pretty low model count, if you would add another unit of boyz or two (trukks, BWs and kanz do a good job at this as well), those smites would become worthless really fast. You could even park skorchas next to them to protect the termiantors. When I play team games with orks, my job is usually to eat all the smites with boyz. Your team mate needs to make sure that his terminators are not the closest unit to all the psykers (they can usually take a smite or two without falling flat on their face), and make killing them his top priority. Alway remember that smites cannot pick their targets.

One of my usual team partners is also a DA player, when using the "Weapons of the Dark Age" stratagem, his hellblasters and raven wing knights hit zoanthropes on 3+, rerolling ones, wound them on 2+, and every failed 3++ save means a dead zoanthrope.

Did you play with the stacking -1 smite rules?

 Jidmah wrote:
For lists that have little to no units worth jumping, I tend to skip entirely on the weird boy now. You could also try to include a suicidal unit of tank bustaz and jump that onto his zoanthropes to blow them up. Every unsaved wound is a dead psyker.

He would have paid his points with warpath and smites, and with the CP he unlocked, I guess.

Just deploy them onto the board with your amy. They are reasonably tough to weather some shooting and they can still shoot after advancing. In my experience they work a lot better that way because 12" move + d6 advance + 9" range means they can pretty much be anywhere in turn 1. Outflank is pretty useless, I stopped using it for skorchas.

Hmm I'll try that next time, thanks!

Even if you don't get re-rolls, you still have bunch of rokkits, a tank busta bomb and bomb squigs which hit monsters on 2+ just like vehicles. If you don't plan on disembarking, maybe a pair of rokkit pistols might help to discourage charges. Outside of that, nobz would probably be your next best bet.

I will think about it. Rokkit pistols won't deter hormagaunts and genestealers from locking the big trakk, though. Nobz could be nice but of course they must disembark, while tankbustas can stay embarked the whole game. If at least kustom shootas could be 2 pts instead of 4...

Yes it is. However, your army had a pretty low model count, if you would add another unit of boyz or two (trukks, BWs and kanz do a good job at this as well), those smites would become worthless really fast. You could even park skorchas next to them to protect the termiantors. When I play team games with orks, my job is usually to eat all the smites with boyz. Your team mate needs to make sure that his terminators are not the closest unit to all the psykers (they can usually take a smite or two without falling flat on their face), and make killing them his top priority. Alway remember that smites cannot pick their targets.

Yeah the first 2 turns he could only smite gretchins, boyz and skorchas, thanks to clever positioning. Starting on turn 3 he was smiting hellblasters and termis, that wasn't pretty. I couldn't really field more boyz since a lot of my models weren't available. A 3rd mob of 30 boyz would have been useful­.

One of my usual team partners is also a DA player, when using the "Weapons of the Dark Age" stratagem, his hellblasters and raven wing knights hit zoanthropes on 3+, rerolling ones, wound them on 2+, and every failed 3++ save means a dead zoanthrope.

I'll look into that, thanks.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Did you play with the stacking -1 smite rules?

Yes we did, however we forgot that even a failed attempt to manifest Smite still adds 1 to the next attempt.

When fighting nids, you have to focus fire units until they are gone. The best thing to focus is gonna be the Genestealers for sure. The use you high AP and smite to take out the Flyrants.

As much as smite spam is annoying, its gonna be hard to kill 7 nueronthropes/zoanthropes with the 3++ save spamming smite all over. Best chance is to hope for perils and the stacking penalty until he fails.

The skorchas/ any flamers are great because you get the auto hits, even on overwatch so make sure you put those guys on the board.

Had 2 games today. Was taking a mixed tide. 70 boyz, 9 manz, some mek gunz and a bunch of characters.

First game was vs dark angel primaris gunline with a ton of plazma and some interceptors. The enemy screwed up with interceptors and lost them 1st turn. Than it was all about running forward and orks ended up with a narrow victory.

2d game was against an ig gunline with a lot of leman russes, Yarrikk, some psychers and bauble wrap. He got 1st turn and that's pretty much all he needed. Orks managed to kill like 80 pt of guards in a 1500 pt game. Full army re-rolls, double shots and never ending command points are too much to handle. There was only one fighting chance for orks in such game. 1st turn, than successful deepstrike and successful first turn charge with consolidation. But it didn't happen. Can't see what can be done tactics-wise against this large dakka blobs with re-rolls.

In the end:
Kmk were decent.
Ghaz was decent.
Mefanonz were useless.
Don't mix stuff up in competitive games. Take either max boyz, kommandoes and stormboyz or forgeworld. I doubt fw would be better in this case tbh. He'd easilly down any vehicle or monster turn 1 with such amount of multidamage weapons.

1) I think twin weirdboyz is a solid choice. The deny is very useful against psyker-heavy armies, and the escalating smite modifier really doesn't affect them. Warpath and Da Jump are both very usefull spells.

2) Jumping in a max squad of boyz is not always the best thing to do, but there is always SOMETHING you can jump.

Jumping a squad of shootas forward so they can shoot without advancing.

Putting a squad of shootas into cover, teleporting neatly into every floor of a far off ruin.

Jumping something on top of an empty objective.

Jumping Ghaz/KKF/painboy to wherever his buff is needed.

Jumping lootas/tankbustas out of CC so they can shoot etc.

Some armies has a stratagem that can recycle a large blob of units (cultists, hormagaunts) by redeploying them at full strength near a board edge, but more than 9" away from enemy models. With Da Jump on a large blob you can deny this from happening along an entire board edge, forcing him to deploy away from his buff-bots.

You can da jump 30 stormboyz fully behind solid terrain somewhere. Getting all 30 fully behind a terrain piece is not always easy with regular movement, but with da-jump it is much easier to pack your blob against the terrain. You are not doing this in order to charge the enemy in the same turn. You are positioning you blob for a charge in your next turn.

3) When playing a competetive Imperial Guard list you will need to bring your absolute A-game. And that is boyz/kommandos/stormboyz spam. Preferably more than 200 bodies.

4) How can you take 600 grots and only a single HQ?

Question Re: big trakks: do people bother adding any other wargear than the supa-skorcha? I've been running mine with 2x skorchas and grot riggers on top of the supa skorcha. They normally transport my tankbustas so they're not a suicide unit but I've been wondering if I could just shave off the excess and use the points from the skorchas and riggers elsewhere.

 koooaei wrote:

Mefanonz were useless.

9 of them probably are. But IMHO a unit of 4, maybe 5, all with killsaws isn't that bad in a list that relies on walkers and transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:


4) How can you take 600 grots and only a single HQ?

You can't, that list would be illegal in matched games. You need several weirdboyz to dispose of hundreds of gretchins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Just deploy them onto the board with your amy. They are reasonably tough to weather some shooting and they can still shoot after advancing. In my experience they work a lot better that way because 12" move + d6 advance + 9" range means they can pretty much be anywhere in turn 1. Outflank is pretty useless, I stopped using it for skorchas.

I also prefer deploying them with the army, rather than outflanking them. Since I usually play with vehicles and sometimes walkers those 54 points skorchas are also useful to prevent deepstrikers to arrive too close to more valuable targets.