SemperMortis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:
Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.

Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.

I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine

Without any additional buffs or anything else? Strictly in a vacuum? Hell tactical marines are better.

10 marines (Sgt and heavy Bolter) cost 140pts. That's equivalent to 20 with a Nob/BC or thereabouts.

Turn 1: 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Orkz, heavy bolted = 3 shots 2 hits and 1.33 dead Orkz.

Orkz turn: move, advance, do nothing

Turn 2: (marines are now within 12 inches and get to fire pistols AND bolters unless this changed) 27 (rapid fire and pistols) shots 18hits 9 wounds 7-8 dead Orkz. Heavy bolted kills another 1.3 make it 9 total to be fair. Morale test on Orkz, -9 morale only 7 Orkz left, role a 3 and you are down to 2 models.

Orkz turn: move 5 (7inch charge) shoot pistols 2 shots likely no casualties. Charge, overwatch. 27 shots, 4 hits and that is the end of the Ork boyz.

And those are the most common troops in the game.

I think you got the pistol rules wrong mate. When shooting its all pistols or all other weapons or one grenade.

Well thank the greenskinned godz that's not how games actually go down.

SemperMortis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:
Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.

Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.

I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine

Without any additional buffs or anything else? Strictly in a vacuum? Hell tactical marines are better.

10 marines (Sgt and heavy Bolter) cost 140pts. That's equivalent to 20 with a Nob/BC or thereabouts.

Turn 1: 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Orkz, heavy bolted = 3 shots 2 hits and 1.33 dead Orkz.

Orkz turn: move, advance, do nothing

Turn 2: (marines are now within 12 inches and get to fire pistols AND bolters unless this changed) 27 (rapid fire and pistols) shots 18hits 9 wounds 7-8 dead Orkz. Heavy bolted kills another 1.3 make it 9 total to be fair. Morale test on Orkz, -9 morale only 7 Orkz left, role a 3 and you are down to 2 models.

Orkz turn: move 5 (7inch charge) shoot pistols 2 shots likely no casualties. Charge, overwatch. 27 shots, 4 hits and that is the end of the Ork boyz.

And those are the most common troops in the game.

I do not mean in a vacuum. I just mean diregarding codex buffs.

 Blackie wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:


I use a unit of 3 bikers with no upgrades and the can do some nice screening. If they are left untouched they can charge tanks and stop them from Shooting or grab occasional objectives.

Have you tried skorcha buggies for the same role? At 54 points each they don't look that bad. They can't screen as well as the bikes since they're a single model compared to three and they may suffer from multiwounds anti tank more than bikes but they're significantly cheaper and capable of a comparable amount of damage, even with the shorter range.

I do use buggies (but with rokkits) also, but I play them in a different way than bikes. The buggies outflank and harass tanks in the rear by shooting and charging. They rarely do damage but are annoying as they get in the rear or sides of the opponent. I sometimes wish they were skorchas instead though, but that's the models I have.

The bikes i place at the front of my force (in cover if possible). They try to avoid melee if they survive round 1. They move to maximum range and unleash their 18 shots at infantry. Only time they close in to melee is if they can tie up an important unit. The 14" movement gives them ability to quickly adapt to my needs on the table.

Both units are more there for their durability and speed than their firepower or killyness.
My main offensive punch comes from boyz, meganobs and tankbustas. I don't want to loose these too early to round 1 charges or deep strikers so that's why some surprisingly durable and fast bikes are nice to screen.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Dude, bloodletters aren't better than Boyz. At all. squishy(toughness 3), slow(6'' with +1'' on advance for the instrument), morale issues, more expensive, etc
They are all or nothing. You summon them(a risk and you have to prepare for that by a character in the middle), you roll the charge and if you don't roll 9'' - you just wasted 150-220 points for something 30-75 points of brimstones would've done better. There's a reason they're not seeing much competitive play despite doing good damage.

And I don't really have a main army. I got 4k pts of admech and about 9k pts of daemons. Orks are where I'm most lacking atm(as I started a few days ago) but I'm working on remedying that I'll post my spreadsheet here after I'm done on it. Right now I'm doing Ork damage and WOW they have a lot of choices. Uff.

About the points drops and increases - obviously most things need a pts drop. It's a tradeoff: make all our garbage units(20+) viable and you can make our 1-2 OP units less good.

Why do I feel like people who don't really play Orks are the ones who are most vocal about the nerfs we should receive?

Nerfing Boyz is the most stupid thing I've read on these forums, to the point where it was one of the main reasons I stopped stalking and felt the need to join the discussion!

Let's not take the discussion of Bloodletters vs Boyz any further, it's not for this topic but needless to say the 5++, T3 vs 6+, T4 I believe to be more survivable, 6" with optional +1" is always faster than 5" and 1 pt extra is very, very little (the minimum). If Ork Boyz were in the daemon codex verbatim, they would never be taken.

Please tell me what our OP units are? I seem to have missed them.

 Blackie wrote:
Have you tried skorcha buggies for the same role? At 54 points each they don't look that bad. They can't screen as well as the bikes since they're a single model compared to three and they may suffer from multiwounds anti tank more than bikes but they're significantly cheaper and capable of a comparable amount of damage, even with the shorter range.

About boring but competitive green tides: this is the competitive thread, ok, but playing the green tide is not only boring, it something that requires almost zero skills and tactics. IMHO there's no reason to discuss about a green tide for 100+ pages, what is really interesting is to make viable all the other units. Trying to make them competitive or at least viable is certainly more interesting and useful than giving the same suggestions about the green tide and IMHO it also fits the concept of the "competitive thread".

Of course the ork index in utterly unbalanced but sharing personal experience about different lists and how they perform (even if they fail miserably) and the synergies between units reflects the theme of the thread.

I really want to test out more Skorchas but I refuse to buy any more of the god-awful models we have now. In my experience they fulfill similar roles to Warbikes, in that they are distractions, but they have somewhat less firepower (due to range) but are cheaper (so are a bigger waste when targeted).

Regarding this "tactica" thread - I completely agree. The discussion should not boil down to 'how many Boyz and Weirdboyz you taking'.

I have tried out multiple units that, according to this discussion, should be avoided at all costs but they have proven useful at certain tasks. Nob Bikers for example, despite their expense, are utterly devastating when kitted out correctly and backed up by relevant support. I had used them with a Painboy on Bike before Chapter Approved but he was far too expensive and didn't add much in the way of durability. It seems a bit stupid that he can't heal wounds if he moves more than 5" when mounted, to me. Ork surgery isn't supposed to be a tidy affair and it kinda makes him redundant. Re Nob Bikers I'd always take 2 or 3 base so they take the hits and your better Nobz with the Power Klaw/Big Choppa can get to work.

Trukk Meganobz I have had some success with too, the extra 3 inches disembark move is massive for them as it's effectively their movement again. I really wish we had an 'Ard Case option for the Trukk though.

As for pistols/Bolters I don't know the wording it's never really mattered to me and the last time I played against a SM player he apparently cheated lol. Even without the pistols though the game is one sided between tactical and Boyz.

Boyz are only good when taken in HUGE amounts and then given buffs and they still aren't that great it's more to do with the fact that the buffs work best on Boyz due to the numbers/costs.

The only thing in our index Worth a damn is Boyz and even then it's only because it's counter meta. The best armies right now are filled with elite infantry, tanks and Primarchs. So most players build lists to deal with that, and then when they face 200+ Ork Boyz they get wrecked because Las cannons and plasma isn't that effective against hordes lol.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Dude, bloodletters aren't better than Boyz. At all. squishy(toughness 3), slow(6'' with +1'' on advance for the instrument), morale issues, more expensive, etc
They are all or nothing. You summon them(a risk and you have to prepare for that by a character in the middle), you roll the charge and if you don't roll 9'' - you just wasted 150-220 points for something 30-75 points of brimstones would've done better. There's a reason they're not seeing much competitive play despite doing good damage.

And I don't really have a main army. I got 4k pts of admech and about 9k pts of daemons. Orks are where I'm most lacking atm(as I started a few days ago) but I'm working on remedying that I'll post my spreadsheet here after I'm done on it. Right now I'm doing Ork damage and WOW they have a lot of choices. Uff.

About the points drops and increases - obviously most things need a pts drop. It's a tradeoff: make all our garbage units(20+) viable and you can make our 1-2 OP units less good.

Why do I feel like people who don't really play Orks are the ones who are most vocal about the nerfs we should receive?

Nerfing Boyz is the most stupid thing I've read on these forums, to the point where it was one of the main reasons I stopped stalking and felt the need to join the discussion!

Let's not take the discussion of Bloodletters vs Boyz any further, it's not for this topic but needless to say the 5++, T3 vs 6+, T4 I believe to be more survivable, 6" with optional +1" is always faster than 5" and 1 pt extra is very, very little (the minimum). If Ork Boyz were in the daemon codex verbatim, they would never be taken.

Please tell me what our OP units are? I seem to have missed them.

Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

 Cuz05 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

"Well, I'm buying them, you can rest assured that they're worth it, since I said they were. I'm reasonable."

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

What in Mork's name are those numbers supposed to be? and jazz hands?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ehem:
The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

By "antitank" do you actually mean any weapon that has -1 AP and above? Which is extremely prevalent this edition (ahem Primaris marines say Hi).

I'm not sure what these figures are supposed to represent to be honest? According to my very basic and quick maths;

- 9 bolter shots vs Boys =
6 hits
3 wounds
0.5 Boy survives

- 9 bolter shots vs Bletters =
6 hits
4 wounds
1.333 Bletter survives

Surely a Bloodletter is better at taking hits from a Bolter than a Boy?

I read what you said yea and it is so wrong it hurts. I'll say it again - Boyz aren't OP, they aren't even particularly strong. As others (and myself) have pointed out - their strength comes from the supporting characters buffing them, the assumption that they are in numbers over 20 and the assumption that your opponent will allow them to reach combat.

To use your language - your suggestion is not to replace one great unit with 10 good ones, it's to take one good one and make it trash for apparently 10 usable ones.

I'm still waiting to hear of the OP units Orks have access to? Or any valid reasons why you claim Boyz are too expensive?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

I'll need a source on; "Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition." and "They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment.".

Buying models does not impart rationality or a sense of balance. For whatever reason you believe Ork Boyz to be OP - I don't understand why? Have you played many games with Orks yet? Where is this coming from?

Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

Ork boy spam is just all we got right now on the very competitive scene. You can't count on our shooting because of the rise in negative hit modifiers and you can't take anything expensive because of the prevalence of rerolled high damage weapons. This eliminates a lot of our index. Getting a mass of str4 attacks into close combat before it is shot to death is best done by Weirdboy moving boyz and Stormboyz.

I honestly don't understand why massed Stormboyz isn't considered better then Ork Boyz myself. The power klaw/big choppa point reduction of late I think is proof that there is hope of a codex making us more complete.

 Rismonite wrote:
We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

 Rismonite wrote:
We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

Ork boy spam is just all we got right now on the very competitive scene. You can't count on our shooting because of the rise in negative hit modifiers and you can't take anything expensive because of the prevalence of rerolled high damage weapons. This eliminates a lot of our index. Getting a mass of str4 attacks into close combat before it is shot to death is best done by Weirdboy moving boyz and Stormboyz.

I honestly don't understand why massed Stormboyz isn't considered better then Ork Boyz myself. The power klaw/big choppa point reduction of late I think is proof that there is hope of a codex making us more complete.

Not having the Green Tide rule really hurts, as does running away from their mob-rule buddies. Plus the potential loss of the waaagh banner and painboy that footsloggers can take. That's 4 losses...quite a punch.

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
Imperium
Chaos
Orks(13th out of 212)

SoCal Open:
Imperium
Chaos
<deleted faction>
Eldar
Orks(13th place out of 136)

Let's see where are all those Dark Elves, Necrons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Daemons(actual chaos daemons, not brimstones + soup)... the list goes on. Oh wait. Way bellow orks? But... I thought Orks were one of the worst factions in the game! Has THE INTERNET lied to me!?

"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).

But you guys are right. Orks are the worst.
AdMech has a codex. So obviously a pure AdMech army should do bet... oh... They didn't even hit top 50... Well then.
If you're losing as orks to non-soup armies (and mby new eldar/tyranids) - git good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Instead of "Waaagh!" he went "waaaaaaah "

Obviously Orks are not tier 1. Soup armies are on a tier of their own. But they are solid top tier 2. Nids and Eldar may have moved ahead of them by now due to codexes(jury's still out on that one) but Orks are still one of the better factions.
Saying "orks are incompatible with 8th" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... and that says a lot because I spend a looooot of time on the net.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

What in Mork's name are those numbers supposed to be? and jazz hands?

It's durability per point. "How many bullets does it take to kill x" divided by point cost. And yes, Orks are more resilient to bolters than bloodletters... They are also more resilient to even AP1 weapons because bloodletters have nothing against morale(bloodthirsters aren't real, forget about them. Icons are stupid as they are a 1/6, better to just get more bloodletters)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ehem:
The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

- 9 bolter shots vs Boys =
6 hits
3 wounds
0.5 Boy survives

- 9 bolter shots vs Bletters =
6 hits
4 wounds
1.333 Bletter survives

Surely a Bloodletter is better at taking hits from a Bolter than a Boy?

It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Instead of "Waaagh!" he went "waaaaaaah "

Obviously Orks are not tier 1. Soup armies are on a tier of their own. But they are solid top tier 2. Nids and Eldar may have moved ahead of them by now due to codexes(jury's still out on that one) but Orks are still one of the better factions.
Saying "orks are incompatible with 8th" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... and that says a lot because I spend a looooot of time on the net.

You are completely missing the point and also being rude.

Im are mostly interested in the internal balance, ive got shelf after shelf with completely useless ork models. Go somewhere else and troll please.

Well... Guess what. The only army immune to the "half my units are garbage" are tyranids. Pretty much every. single. other. army. has 50-80% garbage units. Check Chaos Daemons. Apart from Brimstones and Changeling, sometimes nurglings, what else is seeing play? Pretty much nothing.

 jhnbrg wrote:

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.

"The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde"

Um, not to be snarky, but that's what are now, and have been portrayed as that since 3rd edition. Same with the BS and 6+ save, these are not new elements. Yes, codex creep is a thing, the meta changes and so on, but a " pure close combat/ short range horde" is what orks are. 8th edition has merely reinforced that. Possibly you are confused about how the army works, and which the important units are?

What's your defination of a good horde BTW? Just so I understand where you are coming from.

ALL: Please keep in mind RULE #1 (BE POLITE) when posting in this thread - and on Dakka Dakka in general.

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.

"The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde"

Um, not to be snarky, but that's what are now, and have been portrayed as that since 3rd edition. Same with the BS and 6+ save, these are not new elements. Yes, codex creep is a thing, the meta changes and so on, but a " pure close combat/ short range horde" is what orks are. 8th edition has merely reinforced that. Possibly you are confused about how the army works, and which the important units are?

What's your defination of a good horde BTW? Just so I understand where you are coming from.

First: No. Orks have not been a close combat horde since 3:rd You have been able to do a fairly decent gunline, biker horde, kan wall, trukk rush, blitz brigade and a number of other combinations thru 3rd to 7th (not everything in every edition)

Second: Are people even playing the game? I have every ork codex since 3:rd edition in a shelf beside me, i KNOW the stats. The difference now is that we for the first time since 2:ne ed have to hit mods and save mods (orks in 2nd had Bs3) and it is making all my favourite units close to unplayable.

Third: Lol, you are being snarky and a bit confused about the orks it seems, orks are just as much about shooting as they are about close combat and has always been.

The way the core rules are working makes it impossible to balance the majority of the ork units, or how would you make f. ex lootas competetive without upsetting the balance with other codexes?

 jhnbrg wrote:

First: No. Orks have not been a close combat horde since 3:rd You have been able to do a fairly decent gunline, biker horde, kan wall, trukk rush, blitz brigade and a number of other combinations thru 3rd to 7th (not everything in every edition)

Second: Are people even playing the game? I have every ork codex since 3:rd edition in a shelf beside me, i KNOW the stats. The difference now is that we for the first time since 2:ne ed have to hit mods and save mods (orks in 2nd had Bs3) and it is making all my favourite units close to unplayable.

Third: Lol, you are being snarky and a bit confused about the orks it seems, orks are just as much about shooting as they are about close combat and has always been.

The way the core rules are working makes it impossible to balance the majority of the ork units, or how would you make f. ex lootas competetive without upsetting the balance with other codexes?

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I now understand your position, even if I do not agree with it.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
....
"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).
...
It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

Have you played a single game as Orks?

You have conveniently picked tournaments that suit your argument and have (even more conveniently) claimed that other results "mean next to nothing". You see the hypocrisy there right?

My maths;

9 x shots at BS 3+ = 6 hits (2/3)
6 hits to wound T4 @ 4 Str = 3 Wounds
6 hits to wound T3 @ 4 Str = 4 Wounds

3 Wounds with 6+ (1/6 chance) save = 0.5 Ork survives
4 Wounds with 5++ (1/3 chance) save = 1.3333 Bloodletter survives

That make sense?

Now enough trolling, explain your position with regards your belief that Boyz are too cheap? It doesn't make any sense to anyone who has played the faction (which leads me to believe you haven't). You're not going to get any decent replies, conversation or discussion going when you insult the very people you're trying to convince of something.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

@rvd1ofakind, don't bother arguing mate, unfortunately no ones really going to change their mind. I think there is a lot of emotional connection to this discussion, and everyone is afraid that a Boyz nerf will leave us unplayable, and as such will not concede anything. The evidence points to Orkz clearly being a mid-teir, maybe slightly below average overall performer (which personally, I am fine with). I don't think anyone should be worried that adding buffs to the army will make them degenerate, or too good. However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

I think what people are underestimating, is that if we get buffs across the board, sure other units will be viable, but green tide will only get better. Maybe that means that you will stop bringing your green tide, and bring the kan-wall or the gun-line you've painted so well, but it also means that the WAAC player brings his green-tide as well as those buffed kans (and does really well with them).

hollow one wrote:
However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

We already have a competetive gunline. At 42 points Kustom Mega Kannons deals more damage per point than obliterators.

But people will still not complain about our 6 point screening unit that does real damage. Not as long as Guard has a 4 point per model screening unit with a 5+ save and 4 attacks in rapid fire range, which can potentially be 18" with the right regimental doctrine. That is 1 point per 18" shot at BS 4+. That is an insane amount of damage combined with amazing durability.

I thought of a fluffy thing grots could do that probably wouldn't be op.

For every 10 models of grots gain A d6. On a 5+ they remove a hull point from a vehicle in the assault phase.

Call it "scrappers."

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
....
"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).
...
It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

Have you played a single game as Orks?

You have conveniently picked tournaments that suit your argument and have (even more conveniently) claimed that other results "mean next to nothing". You see the hypocrisy there right?

My maths;

9 x shots at BS 3+ = 6 hits (2/3)
6 hits to wound T4 @ 4 Str = 3 Wounds
6 hits to wound T3 @ 4 Str = 4 Wounds

3 Wounds with 6+ (1/6 chance) save = 0.5 Ork survives
4 Wounds with 5++ (1/3 chance) save = 1.3333 Bloodletter survives

That make sense?

Now enough trolling, explain your position with regards your belief that Boyz are too cheap? It doesn't make any sense to anyone who has played the faction (which leads me to believe you haven't). You're not going to get any decent replies, conversation or discussion going when you insult the very people you're trying to convince of something.

I have literally picked the two biggest recent ITC tournaments and then literally every major tournament from octorber. What else should I pick,
And that doesn't make sense...
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*3(SvsT) /6*5 (save) = 2.5 dead boyz
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*4(SvsT) /6*4 (save) = 2.666... dead bloodletters
And which costs less? Oh yes. Ork boyz...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?

Damage per point
Well, I'll be... Those ork boyz might be a TAD too good, huh?
2 shots at 5+ = 0.666 hits / 6pts = 0.111
1 shot at 3+ = 0.666 hits / 13pts = 0.064
2 shots at 3+ = 1.333 hits / 13pts = 0.102

wow.

Just.

wow.

You forgot to subtract the attrition on the way.

Rookie mistake on your part, no doubt, you're not an ork player.

But...Oy.

watch, and learn:

90 shoot boyz. 1 weirdboy. (without the weirdboy, all the shootas die before combat.) 30 dajump turn 1, 15 turn 2 (rest are dead.) 50% chance of rolling a 9, so average 15 get in turn 1, 8 turn 2. That means we get 23 in combat, for 600 points. The orks get NO shooting on the way, as the tacticals are always out of range (they backup up 6" and still shoot.) If we run, BS becomes 6+.

Why not calculate this?

If ALL shoota boys magicked themselves within certain charge range every turn, then they would be....OP. If not, then no.

Oy.

Terrain exists... Other units exist. Mathammer should only be used to determine pure damage and durability. Everything else has way too much variables. Evaluating range is impossible, which is what you're arguing for at the moment.

And orks are superior in damage and durability against anything above AP0. There's a reason tactical marines see almost no competitive play.

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?

10 tacticals will put out 6.7 shooting hits. That's is 5 hits per 100 points or twice that within rapid-fire range. Shoota boyz will put out 11 shooting hits per 100 points within 18".

In CC 10 tacticals will produce 6.7 hits, or 5 hits per 100 points. 30 shoota-boyz will deliver 60 hits, which is 33 CC hits per 100 points. Without the greentide bonus, we are still talking about 22 hits in CC per 100 points.

Tacticals are more durable in cover, takes up less space in a transport, and has better weapons options. But their damage output is pathetic. In fact, guardsmen are more dangerous in CC than space marines. And that is.... strange.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Terrain exists... Other units exist. Mathammer should only be used to determine pure damage and durability. Everything else has way too much variables. Evaluating range is impossible, which is what you're arguing for at the moment.

And orks are superior in damage and durability against anything above AP0. There's a reason tactical marines see almost no competitive play.

rvd, dude, listen. Your math skills are extremely rudimentary and it's making you draw absurd conclusions. You can't just compute iterated conditional expectations and then map it one-to-one onto points cost. That's just...nonsense.

You're also, pardon me for saying so, being extremely rude and abrasive as well as making ridiculous claims based on extremely basic math. Stop calling everyone crybabies that need to "git good" for not buying your arguments that, by your own admission, are based on exactly zero competitive experience with orks and just come from looking up results from tournaments that you didn't attend online and combining it with bad math hammer.

The sad thing is that I agree with a lot of your points, Orks are doing just fine I think and a lot of overlooked units are perfectly usable. The problem that people are complaining about is that 8th heavily favours hordes and that's the only thing keeping us afloat right now. I don't necessarily agree with that completely, but it's a valid complaint if it's true. When every discussion of "how do I build a list to take advantage of unit X" ultimately ends with "well, you could do A, B, or C, or combo it with D and buff with E, but compared to just spending the points on a hundred boyz you won't get the same bang for your buck" people start to get a bit frustrated, and that's perfectly fair.

All this shonky maths and bubble thinking is just clouds to me. Play Orks. You'll find boyz are not OP. They do nothing with their gunz. Nothing. They are very choppy, but so are all melee troops. Disadvantage boyz have is that lots (lots and lots) will die before they make melee. Another disadvantage boyz have is that they need their buffs intact. So deployment/movement restrictions galore. A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...
Advantages. Cheap. Dice spam. That's it.

So literally. Play Orks. See how boyz run. Stop with pointless math, baseless theory and irrelevant comparisons.
They are decent. They can surprise a foe. But if said foe is expecting horde (or merely not a doofus and made a list that isn't all the lascans), boyz are dropping like flies... Perhaps allowing all our other amazing OP units to dismember opponents who foolishly concentrated fire on our scary troops...

Well when I get replies like "go see a therapist" and "nothing can save orks ever!", I can't help but be a tad rude, you got me. Blind stupidity offends me more than anything.

Please tell me how else can you evaluate an army if not:
Math - Orks are going great
Big Tournament results - Orks are doing great
All yournament results - Orks are doing great

My skill/results mean NOTHING. Whenever I play AdMech, the opponent usually concedes turn 1 because I killed a 3rd of his army with Wrath of Mars DakKastelans alone. Guess I'm the best player ever and the army is the best in the game. Spoilers: the army can't even crack top 50 in big tournaments...

Anecdotal evidence like "in my local meta I'm getting crushed/am crushing everyone" mean nothing. Too limited scope and data.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cuz05 wrote:
All this shonky maths and bubble thinking is just clouds to me. Play Orks. You'll find boyz are not OP. They do nothing with their gunz. Nothing. They are very choppy, but so are all melee troops. Disadvantage boyz have is that lots (lots and lots) will die before they make melee. Another disadvantage boyz have is that they need their buffs intact. So deployment/movement restrictions galore. A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...
Advantages. Cheap. Dice spam. That's it.

So literally. Play Orks. See how boyz run. Stop with pointless math, baseless theory and irrelevant comparisons.
They are decent. They can surprise a foe. But if said foe is expecting horde (or merely not a doofus and made a list that isn't all the lascans), boyz are dropping like flies... Perhaps allowing all our other amazing OP units to dismember opponents who foolishly concentrated fire on our scary troops...

Orks have 3 very strong(borderline OP) units right now: Ork Boyz, Storm Boyz, Weirdboyz. Due to them being OP-ish, the units supporting them become OP-ish, leading to the best non-codex army in the game tournament results wise. You cannot deny that. It used to be Ynnari... but they were deleted from the universe.

Please tell me all those melee troops that are stronger than Ork Boyz. I'm listening
Bloodletters are good, but they're almost completelly outclased by Boyz, which are 1 points less.

#rvd1ofakindMade: never use tournaments results to discuss how good an army is. Pretty much every tournament is based on a 3 turns game due to time limitations. Which isn't standard 40k.

Guilliman gunline, pure eldar or ynnari, pure IG, tyranids, SoB, pure chaos are all way better than orks. SW with the new points reductions are quite good as well. Other armies are comparable to orks, a few ones a bit worse.

Drukhari for example are better than orks overall, I play both armies, but since they lack efficient ranged anti infantry they suffer green tides a lot. They struggle against orks but they can manage other competitive lists while orks can't.

Shootaboyz at 4ppm would be insane. Boyz spam is too common even at 6ppm.

hollow one wrote:
@rvd1ofakind, don't bother arguing mate, unfortunately no ones really going to change their mind. I think there is a lot of emotional connection to this discussion, and everyone is afraid that a Boyz nerf will leave us unplayable, and as such will not concede anything. The evidence points to Orkz clearly being a mid-teir, maybe slightly below average overall performer (which personally, I am fine with). I don't think anyone should be worried that adding buffs to the army will make them degenerate, or too good. However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

I think what people are underestimating, is that if we get buffs across the board, sure other units will be viable, but green tide will only get better. Maybe that means that you will stop bringing your green tide, and bring the kan-wall or the gun-line you've painted so well, but it also means that the WAAC player brings his green-tide as well as those buffed kans (and does really well with them).

The thing is, a green tide is already bringing the maximum amount of boyz they can. Buffing other units will not make that army better, because they would need to bring less boyz to field them. A kan wall in 5th brought around 80 boyz, a BW bash was 50, a kult of speed list was 72 at max. If those armies became viable again, they would have a lot less boyz than a green tide.

As for the gunlines, you seem to be forgetting that our weapon stats are way inferior to those of the Imperium of Man. Almost no unit can shoot further than 36", most can't even shoot 24". Ork gunlines are pretty much assault armies that are shooting while charging towards the enemy. You know, exactly like Orks should do.

I agree that most characters (weird boy, banner nob, pain boyz, thrakka, etc) must not become better by a lot because otherwise green tide will get out of hand. Those characters are in pretty good spot already, no I don't see a huge problem there. Clan tactics might be a problem if GW isn't careful, but unless they provide the entire tide with -1 to hit, I doubt it would break the meta in half.

What I could get behind would be boyz becoming 7 points if the green tide bonus would start at 10 models - this would help trukk boyz and bw boyz a lot.

 Blackie wrote:
#rvd1ofakindMade: never use tournaments results to discuss how good an army is. Pretty much every tournament is based on a 3 turns game due to time limitations. Which isn't standard 40k.

Guilliman gunline, pure eldar or ynnari, pure IG, tyranids, SoB, pure chaos are all way better than orks. SW with the new points reductions are quite good as well. Other armies are comparable to orks, a few ones a bit worse.

Drukhari for example are better than orks overall, I play both armies, but since they lack efficient ranged anti tank they suffer green tides a lot. They struggle against orks but they can manage other competitive lists while orks can't.

Shootaboyz at 4ppm would be insane. Boyz spam is too common even at 6ppm.

Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I have literally picked the two biggest recent ITC tournaments and then literally every major tournament from octorber. What else should I pick,
And that doesn't make sense...
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*3(SvsT) /6*5 (save) = 2.5 dead boyz
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*4(SvsT) /6*4 (save) = 2.666... dead bloodletters
And which costs less? Oh yes. Ork boyz...

Well, I'll be... Those ork boyz might be a TAD too good, huh?
2 shots at 5+ = 0.666 hits / 6pts = 0.111
1 shot at 3+ = 0.666 hits / 13pts = 0.064
2 shots at 3+ = 1.333 hits / 13pts = 0.102

You've picked the two biggest tournaments that support your rhetoric. What about the results of the tournament GW held here in the UK. Wait didn't an SM list win using only tacticals?! Weren't AdMech in the top 5?

My maths is fine, we're actually coming to the same conclusion, we just have a different spin on the same thing. Ultimately it'll be 3 dead Boyz and 3 dead Bloodletters since you can't save half a Boy or a third of a Bloodletter.

Your comparison to the damage output a tactical has per point, and many of your other arguments, show your naivety when it comes to playing Orks. As others have said; you aren't going to magic all your Boyz in range to fire on the enemy. The "lol @ morale issue argument" falls apart when you put Boyz in transports, or they get shot at, focus fired and as the game goes on. The shooting looks really points efficient on paper but then you remember you want to advance every turn so you can effectively cut those successful hits in half. On the topic of advancing - if you're going to assume you can advance and charge your Boyz then you need to add the cost of a Warboss on to their points. I would also argue that a 5" movement assault unit with a T shirt save is obviously not "OP". "But we have Weirdboyz" I hear you cry; OK then, now add their points to the cost of the unit.

Orks aren't bad I don't think by any stretch. No-one is claiming this is 7th bad (I hope). Orks are very swingy though and I've no doubt when you actually play with them you'll see this. I thought the same as you when the index was released. I rubbed my grubby mits together and cackled at the possibilities of stomping enemies for a change. Then I played and realised this wasn't the case. It feels (appropriately you could argue) that Orks are always walking a fine line between wrecking face and completely falling apart. And when they fall apart, they do so hard and quickly. It doesn't take much tactical nuance on your opponents part to make this happen either - just walk back shooting and remove Boyz piecemeal.

The above being said I will try and bring this back to an actual tactics discussion because I'm really, really happy about the 'Mob Up' stratagem. I think it's perfect for us and could help mitigate much of the swingyness of Orks. It also allows us to run smaller squads of Boyz to make up a certain detachments before combining them to best effect. Or don't combine them if there are better tactical uses for them. The versatility it presents us is awesome (although you'll want to go first I guess). I'm currently looking at a 1k list where I fill slots with 3 x 10 man Boyz squads with the intention of combining them ASAP.

According to this, orks suck slightly less than tau an grey knights, who everyone agrees on are terrible.

If you actually care about discussing tournament results, please posts links to your sources. The last time someone was claiming tournament results as his sources, I went through the trouble of actually tracking down all the players list's just to find that he was talking nonsense.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Terrain exists... Other units exist.

I have yet to even claim cover for a single unit of boyz in 8th, let alone hide one out of sight. The only thing terrain does for orks is reduce charges by 2".

Any competitive army should have no trouble wiping out at least 60 boyz per turn. I constantly play against fluffy armies operated by veteran players an even those manage to kill most of two units of boyz in turn one.
The only reason boyz are great is because they have a higher strength than most units and (green tide included) they have four times as many attacks as most units. This is why they murder anything they touch in combat. The whole trick behind the green tide is having more bodies than bullets, so one or two units with that awesome statline actually connects with the enemy and destroys it. No matter how awesome ultramarine assaultcannon razorbacks are, if you brought more wounds than they have shots, you'll have orks left to score objectives.
The other side of the coin is that orks get tabled when they field stuff like walkers, trukks or battlewagon, with 60-90 boyz you have not brought enough boyz. I'd argue that a unit is not OP if it fails to do anything when bringing three full-strength units.

The two reason why the green tide is winning so many games in tournaments are:
- The meta is full of primarchs, baneblades, leman russes and other big things that players are forced to invest heavily into anti-tank. All those points are completely wasted against a tide. If they bring six lascannons, you're up against a 1850 point army.
- The games goes to time, and when the game ends turn 3 or 4 your opponent didn't get to shoot all your orks off the objectives yet.

Other reasons for orks winning are the garagantuan squiggoth and some non-soup player running a bunch of space marines into six smiting weird boyz.

Seriously, you seem to be someone with a lot tactical knowledge, but you have absolutely no experience with orks.

Go have 10 games with orks and let's then continue the discussion on whether boyz are OP, and not any sooner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

Look, someone who never played a 200+ model army is sharing his wisdom.

I picked the two biggest tournaments I can easily look up lists on. I did not pick and choose, trust me. If I can't look up UK tournaments and their lists on BCP - that's on them, sadly. There are plenty random open play, maelstrom, etc tournaments that all come down to what cards you get, who gets turn 1, etc. ITC cuts down on the randomness as much as possible.
The guy who made the top 10 armies of october didn't pick and choose the ork favoring tournament results, either.

And no, that's not the same conclusion. Boyz will never run as 3. They will run as 30(or more accuratelly as 90+), therefor the decimal differences WILL matter. Right now Bloodletter are MORE expensive despite being worse at almost everything. If Boyz were 7 points, it would actually be somewhat difficult to pick between the two in a vacuum. However with the buffs available from outside sources, even at 7 points, the boyz would STILL be the better choice by default.
No one, that wants to win, runs boyz in transports so that' irrelevant. And you cannot argue the fact that Boyz are way way waaaay less affected by morale than Bloodletters.
And you say "add x cost to the unit", when you forget that WeirdBoyz are good by themselves for smite spam that can beat people up in close combat too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@jidmah
Look at the list. It is literally:
Imperium Soup
Chaos Soup
deleted faction
Orks
every other army.

All my statements are easily backed up by checking Best Coast Pairings. It's a paid app, if you want to check the nitty gritty of it, which I do. But you should be able to get Nova and SoCal results online.
And please tell me what does the 200+ model thing do with anything? My mention of "i don't think most games end at turn 3" is not what you should focus on, as that statement is an afterthought. The crux of my post was, "even if tournament games end on turn 3 - those 3 turns are all that matters in the competitive scene"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

I don't think that Boyz would work at all at 7 points. Boyz are kind of in a tight spot. They totally dominate in numbers, but their drop-off is extreme when you bring just a little less. Like when you run a green tide with 120-150 boyz it just falls flat when you have second turn against competitive armies. But when you play the same opponent with 30-60 more boyz it turns into a stomp.

But there is no denying that boyz is one of the best troops in the game, and comparing them to the decidedly mediocre tacticals is completely unwarranted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, Shoota-boyz can do real damage with their guns.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
(Snip)...
Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

Why are you here? You join an Ork tactica thread with no experience at all and then not only bin off all the advice offered as anecdotal when it doesn't suit your own idea of how things are but you also argue for nerfs on a unit you have never used.

You say Bletters are de facto worse than Boyz. They are assaulting units that move faster and more importantly move as fast as most other units in the game. They have more durability against high powered weapons and I believe their weapons are better? They have better LD.

Stop talking about things you have no idea about. We have offered the same evidence as you with regards our tournament results and you have claimed it doesn't count because the tournament was 'too small', or you can't look at the lists.

Play a few games and let's talk then.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

The Stompa would only be marginally usefully even at 700 points. If you really want to do damage look into getting 10-12 Kustom Mega Kannonz. They inadvertently got a price reduction so the Morkanaut could become cheaper, and now they have become extremely good.

Nah, I don't want to spam units that much, heh. But I'll look into them more carefully and maybe get some, thank you. I love grots.

So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.

Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I picked the two biggest tournaments I can easily look up lists on. I did not pick and choose, trust me. If I can't look up UK tournaments and their lists on BCP - that's on them, sadly. There are plenty random open play, maelstrom, etc tournaments that all come down to what cards you get, who gets turn 1, etc. ITC cuts down on the randomness as much as possible.
The guy who made the top 10 armies of october didn't pick and choose the ork favoring tournament results, either.

Sure, and I'm gladly willing to discuss that with you - I'd just rather go paint some models than spend hours searching the web about the two lists you're talking about.

And you say "add x cost to the unit", when you forget that WeirdBoyz are good by themselves for smite spam that can beat people up in close combat too.

I wouldn't bank on a weirdboy surviving combat. As soon as he can be targeted, we hill die - keep in mind that he is usually down to 1-2 wound when he gets into combat due to exploding all the time.
Besides that, you're right. The weird boy is the only unit in the codex that would still be good if its points were increased - assuming we get some decent psychic power, and not just another three flavors of smite like last time.

@jidmah
Look at the list. It is literally:
Imperium Soup
Chaos Soup
deleted faction
Orks
every other army.

Orks have 6, GK have 4, Tau have 4. The numbers are too small to actually read anything from them, a single great competitive player that refused to let go of orks and switch to soup could make that difference.

And please tell me what does the 200+ model thing do with anything? My mention of "i don't think most games end at turn 3" is not what you should focus on, as that statement is an afterthought. The crux of my post was, "even if tournament games end on turn 3 - those 3 turns are all that matters in the competitive scene"

Except I was referring tho everything else in your post. Even if you play as fast as humanly possible, you're not going to see turn 5 in a 2 hour game when fielding a green tide. You cannot do shortcuts in tournaments, in casual games, just just move the front line of your mob and push everything else behind it. Every single move, charge and pile-in matters, you cannot fastpath them. The worst part is that this boring and back-hurting exercise actually makes you win more games.

By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

No, the posters here are presenting you with actual experience of playing orks. You are applying your experiences from other armies to orks, and we are telling you that it doesn't work that way.
You are simply interpreting your results wrong because they are based on false assumptions, it's as simple as that.

Battle reports, blogs and posters on many forums are all reporting the same issues with orks. If you think you know it better, feel free to blow your money on whatever. I wonder why you bother to ask for advice though.

As for your models, I'll try give you some collection building advice:
- Nobz from the nobz box fit bikes perfectly, if you need biker nobz, pain boy or a big mek, just put one of the nobz on a bike and add a KFF bit from a 'naut kit or the MANz box (often available from ebay). With a little work you can also fit an AOBR warboss on a bike (you need to remove the loincloth).
- Flash gits are also based on nobz, a box of flash gits has enough bits to turn a box of nobz into flash gits as well.
- Don't bother buying tank bustaz. Every boyz box comes with two rokkits, every box of lootaz/burnaz with one. Just assemble all those rokkit boyz and push them into one unit. IIRC there are also tank busta bomb bitz in the boyz box (magnetic mine with a handle)
- You can get addition kommandoz by combining burna heads with the ammo backpack from the boyz units. In general, you could also just paint a unit of boyz with camouflage shoulder-pads and/or pants and no non-ork player would be able to tell the difference.
- Almost all boyz from a boyz box can use the burna and loota bitz (one has a spiky steel bar on his shoulders, so that one can't carry a bagpack without work). 3 boxes of lootaz + 1 box of boyz = 12 lootaz, 12 burnaz, 3 tank bustaz, 1 pk nob
- Try getting used metal version of finecast characters. All of them are recasts, and all of them have terrible quality, I needed to trade in Thrakka six times before I got one with only minor miscasts. If you buy finecast, make sure that they are undamaged before painting, GW stores exchanges damaged ones for free, but sometimes their entire stock is damaged.
- Magnetize your dread, keep all weapon bits. Kanz and Deff Dreads use the same weapon sprues, and both are among the easiest models to magnetize (just glue flat, round magnets into the arm sockets). Make sure to have all magnets facing the same direction, so you can swap freely. The deff dread kit is also the only source of KMB for kanz. I'll promise you'll hate yourself when you cannot change weapon loadouts after the codex dropped.
- Either magnetize them (hard) or model your flyers as burna bommers with the blitza bommer' bombs and additional shooters. That's the maximum loadout, and it's easier to have things to count as missing than the other way around.

 Cuz05 wrote:
A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...

This is often overlooked point, glad it was pointed out.
I'm trying to figure out that optimal ammount of boys/their equipment one has to take to stay viable but at the same time allow some space for other units - even for variety sake. Despite that orks can't hit anything with shootas, isn't it wise to have at least some units in your boy mob to be ranged? Since boys, who are still footslogging in are not doing anything.

Sorta like how it is good idea to include 7 shoota boys + 3 orks with special weapons into your dedicated 30 choppy boy squad, but scaled for the whole army. Green tide gives you +1A when there is 20 models, casualities on approach are expected and also you can remove any model in unit when taking casualities. When having 10 boys with ranged weapons, you can remove them on approaching and they still pump out dakka. Ammount of damage is very low, especially when taking into account the fact that you advance non-stop with choppy boys. But on the other hand, at least those soon-to-be-dead ranged boys got to do something compared to sluggas who still will die on approach. If somehow that mixed 30 ork gets in cc completely intact then you'll wreck face anyway because of greentide bonus. In terms of damage output difference between 20 sluggas + 10 ranged boys compared to 30 sluggas is very small.

So now we upscale this for the whole army - amassed boys are great, but they won't be making it into close combat all at once, even under best circumstances, simply because of physical space needed to surround outnumbered units with boys. So what if backrow of boys was a line of 10 shoota boys, they won't be benefitting from greentide, but it does not matter, because - blaspemy! - you won't be charging them into close combat right away. They are there simply because they can contribute to fighting while being in that awkward spot of being separated from enemy by fellow slugga boys thus not being able to contribute with attack. If opponent focuses them - great - your 30 choppy boys got to advance a bit further intact and leftovers of 10 shoota boys will not die to morale. If they let that 10 shoota boys move along with boys, they get to shoot at enemy (at least doing something where slugga boys would just stand around) and they can be soaked into damaged 20 and less boy mob to serve as ablative wounds for choppas and as green tide trigger activation.

TL;DR 1/3 of boys should always be shoota boys. Thoughts?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.
Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

Welcome to our side of the rules, I guess?

It used to be a 5++ and was considered a great upgrade in the 4th edition codex. Everything even remotely playable from that time has gotten nerfed to the death in our last codex, and the index didn't actually make anything better, some units just got lucky when they were translated to 8th.

Ammo runts are the upgrade you're looking for. Throw gretchin into incoming missiles, take bolter shots on the nobz' armor.

 Jidmah wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.
Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

Welcome to our side of the rules, I guess?

It used to be a 5++ and was considered a great upgrade in the 4th edition codex. Everything even remotely playable from that time has gotten nerfed to the death in our last codex, and the index didn't actually make anything better, some units just got lucky when they were translated to 8th.

Ammo runts are the upgrade you're looking for. Throw gretchin into incoming missiles, take bolter shots on the nobz' armor.

Would it be considerable upgrade if it stacked with Painboy aura for 5++? Whats the math behind your thoughts guys

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

Lots of player, including me, don't go to tournaments because of several reasons: paying for playing, spending an entire day of playing, environment full of dickheads, etc.... but they can play competitive 40k as well. Just bring optimized lists, and that's a competitive game, even if it's not a tournament.

20 hours is an exaggeration of course but no official event allows 3 hours of playing, including deployment. Many games are forced to finish at the end of 3rd turn in tournaments due to time limitations, it's not a matter of slowplaying. And green tides require a lot of time invested into moving your orks.

The guilliman gunline is a perfect example, in a 3-4 turns games orks can absolutely handle it, but if the game lasts 5-7 turns the SM list usually has the edge over orks. The stormraven alone can decimate tons of boyz in a single turn without being touched for the entire game.

 JawRippa wrote:
Would it be considerable upgrade if it stacked with Painboy aura for 5++? Whats the math behind your thoughts guys

Well, it's the same increase in durability, except you had to buy a pain boy. So, still worthless. It would need to be a 5+ FNP roll all by itself to even be worth considering. And then again, it's only on two models, if you get unlucky dice it might not do anything. Better just bring another Nob.

Yeah, Cybork armour is, without a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest thing in the entire game, that I know of.
It's an upgrade that makes your unit pretty much objectively weaker.

And yeah, I know ammo runts are worth it. Guess I'll have to get a box of grethin though to support the box of nobz.

And I'm all for magnetising... But only for the same unit. I don't want to dabble with conversions/taking stuff from 2 different unit boxes at all.

Also I love all the useless Stikkbombs on some characters. Hmm, what should I do.. 3.5 shots with str 3 or 4 shots with str 4...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

I have a feeling those spread sheets are gonna feel pretty irrelevant once you start playing a couple of games with those models...

You discard whatever we respond as anectdotal, but experience wins games mate. Looking at what you're buying, you better build a kff big mek. Because those 2 ground vehicles and one dredd that you bring are going to recieve fire from all the enemies lascannons and similar guns.

Also I think next time you enter a thread you should abstain from all the insults and smugness. You'll get a more usefull discussion that way.

Spreadsheets are always useful. Again, you're not relying on them 100%, but 25%(yay random percentages). 25% spreadsheet, 25% tournament results, 25% general rabble, 25% personal experience, 5% pleasure, 50% pain and 100% reason to rememb--- whoops.
I already have a Big Mek, so that's fine.
I entered the thread pretty much saying that I'd take Ork Boyz at 7 pts if all the useless units were useable. That's all. It devolved into me being less tolerant after I got all the "Orks are the weakest" "Nothing can save orks" "Get a therapist" "Wtf are you taking about".

By the way, are these all the offensive buffs Orks have?:
Thraka - +1 attack for ORK INFANTRY
Badrukk - re-roll 1 shooting for Flash Gitz
Snikrot - re-roll 1 fighting for <BLOOD AXE> KOMMANDOS
Runtherd - re-roll 1 fighting for entirely GRETCHIN units
Banner - +1 to hit fighting for <CLAN>
Warpath - +1 attack for ORK

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I already have a Big Mek, so that's fine.
I entered the thread pretty much saying that I'd take Ork Boyz at 7 pts if all the useless units were useable. That's all. It devolved into me being less tolerant after I got all the "Orks are the weakest" "Nothing can save orks" "Get a therapist" "Wtf are you taking about".

By the way, are these all the offensive buffs Orks have?:
Thraka - +1 attack for ORK INFANTRY
Badrukk - re-roll 1 shooting for Flash Gitz
Snikrot - re-roll 1 fighting for <BLOOD AXE> KOMMANDOS
Runtherd - re-roll 1 fighting for entirely GRETCHIN units
Banner - +1 to hit fighting for <CLAN>
Warpath - +1 attack for ORK

You forget the most important offensive buff: The Waagh-aura from Warbosses, that lets you infantey advance and then charge. It is the single most important buff in a foot-list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then there is the unit size buffs for boyz and Gretchin

There's also zagstruck who makes stormboyz fearless, the 6+ FNP granted by painboyz and the 5+ invuln given by KFFs.

Maybe not strictly offensive buffs but especially the zag one stacks with an aggressive style of playing.

Nah, I'm just looking for pure damage buffs where another unit affects the current unit. So I guess I didn't miss any then. I didn't look at forgeworld buffs yet, but I'm not sure if I should with GW's current "crush every viable thing from FW" mentality

I'd love to have more expensive ork boyz. Something like 10 ppm. But they'd better get 2 wounds and 3 attacks base. Also, some better shooting. They'll be less choppy overall but somewhat more durable vs 1-wound weapons. This will also make them much more affordable to deal with for armies with lots of anti-tank. So, boyz would be less of an anti-meta. i just hate painting

 koooaei wrote:
I'd love to have more expensive ork boyz. Something like 10 ppm. But they'd better get 2 wounds and 3 attacks base. Also, some better shooting. They'll be less choppy overall but somewhat more durable vs 1-wound weapons. This will also make them much more affordable to deal with for armies with lots of anti-tank. So, boyz would be less of an anti-meta. i just hate painting

Yes, but ideally Nobz would fill that role of more concentrated boyz. And they do, to an extent. Except that they have much worse shooting and somewhat worse chopping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nah, I'm just looking for pure damage buffs where another unit affects the current unit. So I guess I didn't miss any then. I didn't look at forgeworld buffs yet, but I'm not sure if I should with GW's current "crush every viable thing from FW" mentality

Orks actually got two nifty price reductions on FW stuff: The Warkopta is now 80 points and a squiggoth is 160.

Ammo runts grant rerolls to hit in shooting for one attack.

Tsnk Bustas inherent reroll to hit against vehicles.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ammo runts grant rerolls to hit in shooting for one attack.

Tsnk Bustas inherent reroll to hit against vehicles.

Yeah, but that's the same unit though. Guess I got them all first try. Yay. 400 rows written already. Only about 300 more to go

The dakkadakka stratagem is also an offensive buff I suppose

 koooaei wrote:
I'd love to have more expensive ork boyz. Something like 10 ppm. But they'd better get 2 wounds and 3 attacks base. Also, some better shooting. They'll be less choppy overall but somewhat more durable vs 1-wound weapons. This will also make them much more affordable to deal with for armies with lots of anti-tank. So, boyz would be less of an anti-meta. i just hate painting

If boyz get +1W pretty much everything else should have it as well. Nobz and bikes would become 3W, meganobz 4W, etc...

I'd like boyz keeping the current profile but 8ppm with a 6+ FNP, actually given to all ork infantries/bikes, that can be cumulative with the painboy bubble, becoming a 5+ one.

In addition +1 attack for mobz of 10+ guys, not 20+, and cheaper vehicles. This way we may have some alternatives to the green tide and more variety of models on the table. Now that vehicles can't be instant killed en masse in turn 1 they must be viable somehow.

I hate painting as well And I also hate wast... investing so much time only for moving models.

pismakron wrote:
The dakkadakka stratagem is also an offensive buff I suppose

It's about as much of an offensive buff as the dice re-roll stratagem is

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
And I'm all for magnetising... But only for the same unit. I don't want to dabble with conversions/taking stuff from 2 different unit boxes at all.

Most of those tips aren't conversions though, all ork plastic kits are made to work with each other, no green stuff or tools needed at all. Warbikers, lootaz, burnaz, boyz and some other kits (for example, the gunners on battlewagons) use the same type of heads, torsos and legs, they are 100% interchangeable. Nobz and flash gits use the same bodies and heads as well, plus it's pretty obvious that the nobz bodies were made to fit on warbikes, they pretty much snap-fit to them. There really is no point in buying a lootaz/burnaz box twice if you just need more bodies to build both from a single box.

Kanz and Deff Dreads are even more obvious, one of the sprues is shared between the kits. The sprue containing the skorcha, rokkit and saw arms is the very same in both. The lower arms of the deff dread are just kan arms. It's just common sense to take the weapons that make no sense on a dread (KMB, rokkit) and put them on kanz, while you take the weapons that more sense on the dread (big shoota, skorcha) and put them on the dread.

Kommandoz and Tank Bustaz are both very old kits, each one has one nob, so for a "legit" unit you would need four boxes each and you have fixed wargear since the models are not customizable.
Bottom line, tank bustaz are boyz with rokkits, kommadoz are boyz with bagpacks. You can either blow 140€ per unit or use what everybody else is using.
But since you don't seem to believe in advice... I guess I'm wasting my time here.

 Jidmah wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
And I'm all for magnetising... But only for the same unit. I don't want to dabble with conversions/taking stuff from 2 different unit boxes at all.

Most of those tips aren't conversions though, all ork plastic kits are made to work with each other, no green stuff or tools needed at all....But since you don't seem to believe in advice... I guess I'm wasting my time here.

I feel like we are going to witness the evolution of rvd not just as a poster on here but also as an Ork player/collector.

First 10 games; his muscles start to gain mass and his speaking becomes a little more basic.
Next 20 games; he has grown a few extra inches in height and has forgotten how to use a spreadsheet.
Next 30 games; he is working on a conversion, it will be beautiful, a masterpiece; that Onagaer Dunecrawler would look so nice.....Orkified...
100+ games; how long has it been since he purchased a kit for anything other than conversions? Why does he hate those "standard" Kommandos and Tank Bustas so much? He can no longer tell where a Boy ends and a Tank Busta begins. He spends hours trolling Ebay for half used sprues of Boyz. For some reason he can't help but use models and units that statistically aren't very good. He believes he rolls more 5s and 6s than other, runtier players.
200+ games; thick-set, broad shoulders, knuckles almost scraping the ground and a thick leathery skin indicate rvd is now a Warboss in his own right. He speaks only in guttural slang and to announce his presence at any event with a massive WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!! He cares not if he wins games, he has almost forgotten how to count units' points values. He fights only for the joy of fighting and for the thrill of beating an enemy when statistically he shouldn't even be on the table. Rvd is gone, his being replaced by Warboss Git Kikka.

Probably not though :p
Still have AdMech in my blood. NUMBERS! HOLY DATA! Every unit must be made from the original box! Everything else is heresy!

@jidmah Also that last bit was woefully unnecesary. It's like we leave all that behind and you bring it up when talking about model conversions. *siiiiiiigh*

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Probably not though :p
Still have AdMech in my blood. NUMBERS! HOLY DATA! Every unit must be made from the original box! Everything else is heresy!

...

looks like you will become a proper cybork then
A true hybrid of Ork and machine!

Moving on. The Warkopta seems kinda boss to me all of a sudden. Never really looked at them before, the weapons are pretty much free? Super squishy ofc but 80pts to DS 10 geezers with armour protection and dakka support seems good to me. In the unlikely event they survive arrival, they have the bomm and a monster movement range ofc.
One of my favourite builds atm (stupidly uncompetitive, so doesn't really belong here) is 3 meka dreads with KFF and rattler, backed up by 2 trukks containing big choppa nobz, runtz and a KFF mek each. Aim to just go up and crunch things, with the rattlers eating screens or whatever. Obviously it all gets obliterated by anti tank in 2 turns but at 1500pts, there's other stuff to play with.
But swapping trukks for warkoptas and spending the spare 500pts on KMKs and kommandos strikes me as great fun. Lots of 4+ shooting for as long as it lasts, some DSing distractions and then the warkoptas drop the nobz and bomms in the mix.
Anyway, rambling. That list won't compete with much that isn't fluffy.
So, you guys thoughts on warkoptas? I'm considering adding a ton of plasticard to my deffkoptas and going all in. They seem a great and very different option now.

so with chapter approved I am not seeing much in here (perhaps I did not go back enough) but our new strategems one seems mostly useless (dakka) the other awesome (mob up)

dakka dakka dakka: the on a 6 you get another shot seems so useless. even 30 ork shoota boys average 60 shots, that is 20 hits, 10 6's which result in 3.33 more hits, for a command point that is just bad. also assumes no nob in the group, all within 18 inches of the target unit, and at full strength. lootas are still super overpriced but probably what gw had in mind. average 2 shots each assuming 5 man due to how much is costs 10 shots 3.3 hits, 1.65 6's so extra shots or .54 extra hits. seems underwhelming, might have been halfway decent if they got an extra hit per 6 and not an extra shot.

mob up I am super stoked about, mob up. so that weakened boys squad with a nob and 4 boys left gets to join another boys squad so now you have 2 nobz in one big squad.

original mob up rumor had me even more excited joining say mega nobz to a unit of boys for a 2+ save but alas that proved to be false. still I think this will be used across the board by ork players.

on the points adjustments having power claws closer to power fists is nice and the other points drops seem needed but leaving the stompa, lootas, mek/big guns, battlewagon, and other points still overcosted seems an oversight. the stompa particularly could see a 50% points decrease and still only be decent for the points and wish it was an imperial knight in efficiency.

I'm really excited about Mob Up too. It's awesome.

All those Special Weaponz Boyz and Nobz in Boyz squads are suddenly way more durable as long as they're around other Boyz squads. Unless Boyz are absolutely destroyed to the point where they auto fail morale any stragglers will be absorbed into other squads (rather than be useless).

Not to mention kill point denial, though well have to see how that works out.

It also opens up possibilities to run Boyz in transports, assuming our transports get cheaper.

The most exciting thing though, for me, is that it's thematic and shows that GW understands at least a little how Orks function. Boyz (and because of the synergies, our other units) are far, far stronger in greater numbers and this stratagem allows us to keep them in as greater numbers as possible as long as possible. It also let's us keep our strongest models in those units alive as long possible (so they become more valuable).

I rate it.

One big thing that someone here has completely failed to bring up in regards to Blood letters Vs Ork boyz. AP-3 CCW lol. Another big thing that seems to have been forgotten is that the most annoying gunline against Orkz is the asscan spam which negates Ork armor completely where as BLs still get that 5++ the next big annoyance for Orkz is the heavy bolter which wounds Orkz and BLs the same but again ignores Ork armor. I could keep going but I won't because I think boyz are better then BLs as well, the difference is that if BLs were 6pts and received as many buffs as Boyz do from characters the story would be the opposite.

As it stands the Ork index is based around the idea of boyz and buffs for those boyz.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm really excited about Mob Up too. It's awesome.

All those Special Weaponz Boyz and Nobz in Boyz squads are suddenly way more durable as long as they're around other Boyz squads. Unless Boyz are absolutely destroyed to the point where they auto fail morale any stragglers will be absorbed into other squads (rather than be useless).

Not to mention kill point denial, though well have to see how that works out.

It also opens up possibilities to run Boyz in transports, assuming our transports get cheaper.

The most exciting thing though, for me, is that it's thematic and shows that GW understands at least a little how Orks function. Boyz (and because of the synergies, our other units) are far, far stronger in greater numbers and this stratagem allows us to keep them in as greater numbers as possible as long as possible. It also let's us keep our strongest models in those units alive as long possible (so they become more valuable).

I rate it.

special weaposn are still kind of iffy,. rokkits will hit on 5's and our big shootas while they will average one hit per shot and have the str/range to be useful they still cost as much as another boy.

SemperMortis wrote:

As it stands the Ork index is based around the idea of boyz and buffs for those boyz.

I think that is being generous. I don't think that anyone in GW has a really clear idea about what Orks should and what Orks shouldn't be. We were lucky that we got viable troops, viable HQ, Ghaz and a functional mob-rule.

I am looking forward to the codex, but I kind of expect to be disappointed.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


special weaposn are still kind of iffy,. rokkits will hit on 5's and our big shootas while they will average one hit per shot and have the str/range to be useful they still cost as much as another boy.

Yea I agree special weapons aren't great, but they are more attractive if we have the tools to keep them alive for the entire game.

I just imagine a turn 4 group of Boyz with 3 Nobz and a few special weapons thrown in for good measure and it sems kinda cool to me.

I am certain if nothing else the sheer annoyance of the survivors will encourage the opponent to focus way too much fire at the lads and thereby make positional mistakes.

I think orks should get a "Wildly inaccurate" rule that says:
"Orks point their gunz in the general direction of the enemy without care for their stealthy shenanigans"
ORK units ignore negative to hit modifiers in the shooting phase

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I think orks should get a "Wildly inaccurate" rule that says:
"Orks point their gunz in the general direction of the enemy without care for their stealthy shenanigans"
ORK units ignore negative to hit modifiers in the shooting phase

Yep, already emailed GW on this. You should do to. We should all do it.

SemperMortis wrote:
One big thing that someone here has completely failed to bring up in regards to Blood letters Vs Ork boyz. AP-3 CCW lol. Another big thing that seems to have been forgotten is that the most annoying gunline against Orkz is the asscan spam which negates Ork armor completely where as BLs still get that 5++ the next big annoyance for Orkz is the heavy bolter which wounds Orkz and BLs the same but again ignores Ork armor. I could keep going but I won't because I think boyz are better then BLs as well, the difference is that if BLs were 6pts and received as many buffs as Boyz do from characters the story would be the opposite.

As it stands the Ork index is based around the idea of boyz and buffs for those boyz.

Here's the damage comparison. It's made as if bloodletters are charging/charged(as is usually the case). If the combat lasts more than 1 turn, their damage drop by 50-60% which is pretty huge.
The problem lies in the fact that 4+ and above armour is currently very overpriced. Which is the reason most actual marines are bad. Orks are now counter meta.

PS: excel is sooooooo laggy now I have too many things here

What do you think about the cult of speed box as a starter?

ballzonya wrote:
What do you think about the cult of speed box as a starter?

It's what I got. It has about a 33% discount.
The lootas/burnas are bad-ish. The bikes can be used for Big Mek, Pain Boy, Warboss on boke. Vehicles aren't great but they might get buffed.
I'll get another one of those for the discount in case they get buffed.

The real problem with that box is the HQ: the big mek with SAG will never be viable. With a weirdboy or ghaz it could have been interesting.

Lootas/burnas are not that bad, lootas could work with a price cut and burnas are useful for kommandos which are quite effective now. Bikes, trukk, BW can all have usage, they're all overcosted but with the box you just get one of those. Boyz are never enough.

I think it's a good deal for beginners, the majority of ork players already got enough lootas, bikes, BW and trukks for this edition.

They might be bad now, but if Eldar and Nid codex is anything to go by, the Xenos codexes as much more impactful on army strength. It's not unexpected to see vehicles all get +1 toughness, better saves AND a pts decrease

rvd1ofakind wrote:


Here's the damage comparison. It's made as if bloodletters are charging/charged(as is usually the case). If the combat lasts more than 1 turn, their damage drop by 50-60% which is pretty huge.
The problem lies in the fact that 4+ and above armour is currently very overpriced. Which is the reason most actual marines are bad. Orks are now counter meta.

PS: excel is sooooooo laggy now I have too many things here

Im sorry but those Excel sheets are really hard to read. Am i right if the bottom row is the ork and top row i blood letter? And it's damage/point cost of attacking unit? In that case the sheet shows blood letters being better against stuff with high save, and orks better against light infantry, as expected. I dunno why blood letters have been discussed as much, this thread is about orks?

 Blackie wrote:
The real problem with that box is the HQ: the big mek with SAG will never be viable. With a weirdboy or ghaz it could have been interesting.

Lootas/burnas are not that bad, lootas could work with a price cut and burnas are useful for kommandos which are quite effective now. Bikes, trukk, BW can all have usage, they're all overcosted but with the box you just get one of those. Boyz are never enough.

I think it's a good deal for beginners, the majority of ork players already got enough lootas, bikes, BW and trukks for this edition.

I agree. (hey, we agree on some things! )

If you can use all the models, it's a great deal. I don't have bikes and 3 bikes are useless, plus I already have five battlewagons and there is really no need for a fifth. The SAG mek is at least viable for fun games, since he is just 80 points now. If there is a way to get him to BS 4+ or even 3+ with the codex (warlord trait/relic) he might just become viable. 60" range is pretty awesome for orks if you can actually hit gak. So I wouldn't consider him a full loss. Worst case, make him count as KFF mek.

Gitdakka wrote:

rvd1ofakind wrote:


Here's the damage comparison. It's made as if bloodletters are charging/charged(as is usually the case). If the combat lasts more than 1 turn, their damage drop by 50-60% which is pretty huge.
The problem lies in the fact that 4+ and above armour is currently very overpriced. Which is the reason most actual marines are bad. Orks are now counter meta.

PS: excel is sooooooo laggy now I have too many things here

Im sorry but those Excel sheets are really hard to read. Am i right if the bottom row is the ork and top row i blood letter? And it's damage/point cost of attacking unit? In that case the sheet shows blood letters being better against stuff with high save, and orks better against light infantry, as expected. I dunno why blood letters have been discussed as much, this thread is about orks?

For some reason the image cut off the names. Yeah, that's Bloodletter on the top. It shows damage per point, yes.
Well some guy really liked comparing them to Ork Boyz because they're... an assaulting horde unit I guess?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

For some reason the image cut off the names. Yeah, that's Bloodletter on the top. It shows damage per point, yes.
Well some guy really liked comparing them to Ork Boyz because they're... an assaulting horde unit I guess?

They were compared because they are the same points that you were inferring (wrongly) that Ork Boys should be and are one of the most comparable units in-game.

All these spreadsheets and no actual experience. I'm interested to see how accurate your spreadsheets feel, when you fail that 4" charge with 'Ere we go and when 15 of your 18 Dakka gun hits connect.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It's not unexpected to see vehicles all get +1 toughness, better saves AND a pts decrease

On what unit did this happen and in which codex? I know of no vehicle that gained +1 Toughness, better save and went down in price? Carnifexes perhaps?

I wouldn't bank on the same increase in power that the Tyranid and Eldar codex received. Ork codexes aren't known for being well balanced and Chapter Approved didn't exactly change a ton of points. If you want to have faith in anything; hope that we get decent stratagems for each unit that seriously increases their damage output temporarily. If we get this then we may be able to flood the board with bodies and drop the stratagem when we get in a position to do so.

No way ork vehicles will receive +1T and a better save. Trukks are T6 and 4+ save which is absolutely appropriate considering that SM tanks are T7 and 3+. BWs are already T8, maybe it would be fair if the 'ard case gave a 3+ save other than the +1T but it will probably never happen..

Points decreases are very likely though since GW's interest is to sell the models but vehicles' profiles and their stats will remain untouched.

The trukk definitely needs to be nerfed not buffed. While it is already too expensive (compared to a rhino); even if it was fair value for its stats it would almost certainly be too expensive for trukk-boyz. I would like a trukk to be T6 W8 Sv5+ with a price of 40 points including a big shoota. Then you could realistically bring 12-14 trukks to a trukk-list. If you want to buff a vehicle it should be the Battlewagon. The wagon could do with a couple of more wounds and slightly cheaper weapons. This would also help to differentiate the to vehicles more, letting the BW transport high density models like characters, nobz, MANZ and such, while the trukk would be the best option for boyz.

pismakron wrote:
The trukk definitely needs to be nerfed not buffed. While it is already too expensive (compared to a rhino); even if it was fair value for its stats it would almost certainly be too expensive for trukk-boyz. I would like a trukk to be T6 W8 Sv5+ with a price of 40 points including a big shoota. Then you could realistically bring 12-14 trukks to a trukk-list. If you want to buff a vehicle it should be the Battlewagon. The wagon could do with a couple of more wounds and slightly cheaper weapons. This would also help to differentiate the to vehicles more, letting the BW transport high density models like characters, nobz, MANZ and such, while the trukk would be the best option for boyz.

This, so much this.

To extrapolate a bit more I think we could do with the following;

- A 40 pt smaller Boyz transport that has lower stats.
- Then we could do with a middle-ground transport option for our more expensive units (Rhino equivalent Trukk, for me) such as Tank Bustas, Lootas.
- An improved Battlewagon, for the most expensive units that need it.

Currently our Battlewagon is too expensive for what it is and the Trukk doesn't really suit transporting anything in our index.

pismakron wrote:
The trukk definitely needs to be nerfed not buffed. While it is already too expensive (compared to a rhino); even if it was fair value for its stats it would almost certainly be too expensive for trukk-boyz. I would like a trukk to be T6 W8 Sv5+ with a price of 40 points including a big shoota. Then you could realistically bring 12-14 trukks to a trukk-list. If you want to buff a vehicle it should be the Battlewagon. The wagon could do with a couple of more wounds and slightly cheaper weapons. This would also help to differentiate the to vehicles more, letting the BW transport high density models like characters, nobz, MANZ and such, while the trukk would be the best option for boyz.

The word you are looking for is not nerfed but "reworked".

BW boyz have always had different roles than trukk boyz in the past - I often played both in my lists.
Trukks were faster, so they could deliver the small boyz unit to support wherever support was needed. They could speed across the board and take an objective, tarpit some units or assist another unit in combat. A single unit of trukk boyz was never a force you needed to be afraid of, but a very flexible tool.
BW Boyz actually had the numbers to be a problem all by themselves and were dangerous enough to warrant spending resources to stop them. The downside was that they were slower and less fexible - but they would sometimes get back into their battlewagon to drive to another battlefield and fight again.

This should be the case again.

A lot of the nid monsters got the double/tripple buff of:price, toughness, save. Vehicles are basically monsters in 8th.

Also, why do you think I haven't failed charges when I play Chaos Daemons...? I have connected plenty with bloodletters though. What followed was a bloodshed. That was from turn 2-3 as you need to walk up to summon. When I heard I can do same-ish damage on turn 1 AND it costs cheaper AND there's no summoning risk involved(both roll and reserve points) AND you can shoot before charging... Yeah, that sounds preeeeetty good.

maybe not super optimal, but I actually ran a mechanized list with the intention of testing the new stratagem just yesterday and it worked out quite nicely. I had 2 units of mostly big choppa nobz (I just own a lot of nobz because they were my favorite kit getting into the game) so turn 1 I mobbed up and da-jumped 19 nobz at my enemy in place of the usual distraction boyz-blob. Turn 2, I had a battlewagon with 20 boyz and a trukk with 9 boyz, a warboss running the new trait+Relic for S8 mortal wounding goodness, a waaagh banner and a painboy, they jumped out, advanced and mobbed up to be 29 strong and in range of the buffers.

the nobz died on enemy turn 1 of course, but thanks to them being 2w and having armor they didn't just follow the usual pattern that boyz typically do where they take all the bolter and lasgun fire and the anti-tank does what it would have normally done which is blow up my transports and then I'm up gak creek. instead the manticore and the basilisk both dedicated to shooting at Nobz to try and use their D3 damage to kill them. and then by the time the boyz got there, the nobz had already cut down pretty much all the chaff (they killed 4x infantry squads by splitting their attacks up and letting Morale work for them) so the rest of the game was a fall back+overwatch loop with most of the tanks and artillery.

This was against Cadian guard.

Thing is, your Bletters are appearing turn 2/3, they aren't spending turn 1/2 being cut to ribbons. Don't they have AP on their attacks too? 3+ save is annoyingly resilient against no AP attacks.
30 boyz making a turn 1 charge is great n all, but they're only a distraction so the rest of them can slog up without being perforated 10" from the deployment zone.

 Cuz05 wrote:
Thing is, your Bletters are appearing turn 2/3, they aren't spending turn 1/2 being cut to ribbons. Don't they have AP on their attacks too? 3+ save is annoyingly resilient against no AP attacks.
30 boyz making a turn 1 charge is great n all, but they're only a distraction so the rest of them can slog up without being perforated 10" from the deployment zone.

-3 AP yea. Lol you're wasting your breath on this guy I'm afraid. Let him live in his world of numbers and spreadsheets.

I don't think he understands that when you're on the field of battle you can be targeted and therefore destroyed before you're able to do anything. He believes Boyz are immune to morale but has yet to experience the joy of losing 15 then another 6 to morale. He even thinks Slugga shots are going to amount to much, bless.

And tournament data! Don't forget that one! Which says that ork boyz see play in every ork army and orks are 3rd results wise behind the 2 big soup lists pre-codex. Guess how much play do bloodletters see? No play! You guessed it! Because they completelly rely on a 8'' charge and that's very inconsistent. While boys can at least shoot and can get out of the terrible charge roll situation(You can choose to re-roll with CP or rule right?)

Also, where are you running into 3+ models turn one
Last I checked I was running into: conscripts, cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers and brimstones. And - you guessed it - ork boyz!

I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Protip: if you want to make an assertion sound more reasonable, always give it in the form of a range, even if its a range of exactly one number.

(I know its a typo but its funnier to imagine it this way)

So is Battlescribe borked? It shows me that the Mek Gunz are 25 points without a gun... They should be just 10 points (2*5 gunner grots), right?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
And tournament data! Don't forget that one! Which says that ork boyz see play in every ork army and orks are 3rd results wise behind the 2 big soup lists pre-codex. Guess how much play do bloodletters see? No play! You guessed it! Because they completelly rely on a 8'' charge and that's very inconsistent. While boys can at least shoot and can get out of the terrible charge roll situation(You can choose to re-roll with CP or rule right?)

Well I wasn't gonna...

But you kinda have it all right there. You're jumped boyz also completely rely on a 9" charge. The rest are getting shot at already. Bloodletters are apparently comparable to boyz but are 7pts and seeing no play. Boyz are seeing all the play. Because the rest of the codex needs help but boyz are reasonable at 6pts.
You will see all this for yourself soon enough. It doesn't take a tactical genius or a spreadsheet to see what's what with the Ork army once you start using it.
I'm not complaining about Orks being terrible btw. I love all the quirky ork stuff and don't enjoy hordes, I only play for fun and fluff and I use loads of different list builds. I just frequent this thread because I'm terribly interested in it all. I don't do tactical genius or spreadsheets and the balance of the Ork army is plain to me. Because I use it.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So is Battlescribe borked? It shows me that the Mek Gunz are 25 points without a gun... They should be just 10 points (2*5 gunner grots), right?

Battlescribe is very often wrong, but not in this case. The Mek Gun is 15 points, the 5 Grot Gunners is 2 points each, and the Guns are 15,16,17 and 32 points for the Traktor, Smasha, KMK and Bubble Chukka. The Kustom Mega Kannon is by far the best of the four.


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SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

I would actually prefer if they would buff the gun rather than make it cheaper. Like, say, changing its profile to Assault 5, R24", S5, AP0.

Finally. Done the ork part of the spreadsheet. Feel free to use if you want.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k

Stompa should cost 550-600 to be comparable to Knight Crusader.

Concerning CA points changes:
Gorkanaut > Morkanaut still
All the buggies are all equally OK.
Rokkits, Killsaws are cheaper but still garbage
Powerclaw and Big Choppa are good to take on some units. Also made the Pain Boy a lot better.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Marines cost 13 points each, so I can get a Marine with a Heavy Bolter and get two S5 hits per turn for 23 points or I can get two Boyz with Big Shootas and get two S5 hits per turn for 24 points. The Heavy Bolter is AP-1, but the Big Shootas can move and shoot without penalty. Seems relatively even to me.

Of course Space Marines have access to a lot of things to buff their shooting, and that's something Orks lack. I don't think that's a problem with the Big Shoota, it's a problem with how Orks were implemented in the Index. Hopefully we'll get some good Clan abilities, Warlord Traits, Stratagems and whatnot to fix that when we get our codex.

I think that there are a lot of other problems with Ork shooting and synergy with Boyz that make the Big Shoota an unappealing upgrade for Boyz. I want Big Shootas to be a viable special weapon, and they could fix them by dropping the points and/or making the Big Shoota more powerful, but personally I would like them to go with other solutions. I think that allowing us to take more special weapons per unit of Boyz would help. Three special weapons in a mob of thirty Boyz is just not significant enough to not run them as fast as possible at the enemy in order to get into close combat. The box supports one special weapon per five boyz, so we could easily double the number of special weapons per unit. Going back to allowing three special weapons per unit no matter what the size could also help for small mobs of boyz. They could even do some combination like three special weapons plus one for every ten Boyz. A mob of ten Shoota Boyz that had four Big Shootas plus a Nob plus four Boyz to act as ablative wounds might not be so bad. Throw on a decent buff to shooting from a Clan ability and/or Warlord Trait and they might actually be good.

What use does the battlefront have in the army? Transporting mostly shoota boys? What load outs would you equip it with?


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By battlefront I meant battlewagon lol

Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

Well if you wanna crunch numbers... Did you factor in the cost of a transport for the tankbustas? They pretty much must have it as they have such low range and durability. A trukk would add 82pts to 190 for a unit of 10 with 2 squigs. This leads to 30% reduction of points/damage efficiency for the unit. A battlewagon fits 15 and 5squigs, reducing point/damage efficiency by 45%. Efficiency drops further once the squigs are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think tankbustas are a superb unit though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

Why is the Kustom Mega Kannon listed as being better against T7 than T6? And what does the numbers mean? What is indicated by a value of 0.046? 0.046 what?

Well this just shows the damage values. If you see outliers like Tankbustas, you think how to factor in range/transportation for those.
However it also shows that there's a perfectly good risk free units - Mek Gunz, who can just fire from the start of them game until they are removed from the table. So if you use them from turn one and only get Tankbustas in at turn 2-3, the Gunz are just straight up better.

Why is a deff-dread with rokkit launchas listed higher than a Kills Kan with rokkit launcha? Regards

pismakron wrote:
Why is a deff-dread with rokkit launchas listed higher than a Kills Kan with rokkit launcha? Regards

I was going to ask the same question. Maybe the poster switched the two cases?

And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

Hmm... well I did write "And here's a anti-tank ranged [u]weapons comparison" so melee isn't included.

It's a work in progress, so feel free to tell me what I should change to make it more "viewable".

Bigger number is better(and greener). All of this is damage per point.
T - toughness
S - armour save
W - wounds
1st and 3rd also has 5++

I fixed it up a bit.

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

It is ranged anti-tank only. And I think this could be a pretty useful chart, but I suspect that it contains some errors that needs to be fixed first. Regards

pismakron wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

It is ranged anti-tank only. And I think this could be a pretty useful chart, but I suspect that it contains some errors that needs to be fixed first. Regards

Yeah, I changed the pts values for the sidegrades for deffdreads and wagons.
Tell me if you'd like to see any type of chart: maybe "best case scenario damage"? As in:

1. best short ranged weapon declares the main target
2. Shoot all long ranged weapons at optimal targets
3. Shoot all short ranged weapons against the main target
4. Charge and melee the main target, if it's reasonable (Gunz wouldn't do that for example as they should be far away AND suck in combat)

I think Lootas would be a good include in your spreadsheet. One line assuming you always reroll the D3 when you get 'one shot' and the other with the average of two shots.

I also think a good include would be a trukk with ten tankbustas in it (treated as a single unit for the purposes of comparison in your sheet). Also, a Battlewagon with fifteen tankbustas in it might be a good include as well.

Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

I ask because watching a bunch of battle reps on youtube they dont seem like an auto take to me anymore. They used to add an additional attack, so extra PK attack for cheap. Now they have their own stat and attack profile and watching them in action they havnt impressed me at all. So is that an easy way to shave a few points by simply not taking one?

 KingCracker wrote:
Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

It costs 0 points. So, yes.

 KingCracker wrote:
Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

I ask because watching a bunch of battle reps on youtube they dont seem like an auto take to me anymore. They used to add an additional attack, so extra PK attack for cheap. Now they have their own stat and attack profile and watching them in action they havnt impressed me at all. So is that an easy way to shave a few points by simply not taking one?

Like pismakron said it's 0 points. I think the reason you're not seeing them is that a lot of Warboss models don't come with one and people are trying to keep things WYSIWYG.

I do hope they give the Attack Squig a points cost in the Codex. It seems like more of an optional wargear choice to me and I don't like that they made it an auto-take. (I do have four Warbosses with Attack Squigs, so it's not like this is really hurting me or anything.)


I do need to make more Bomb Squigs though. I only have two. I like the look of the Kromlech robot ones.

Oh well a free attack is great then it can under whelm all it wants eventually it pays for itself

 Rismonite wrote:
I think Lootas would be a good include in your spreadsheet. One line assuming you always reroll the D3 when you get 'one shot' and the other with the average of two shots.

I also think a good include would be a trukk with ten tankbustas in it (treated as a single unit for the purposes of comparison in your sheet). Also, a Battlewagon with fifteen tankbustas in it might be a good include as well.

Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

Why are truckbustas equally good against T6,T7 and T8, but pretty awful against T5?

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

Why are truckbustas equally good against T6,T7 and T8, but pretty awful against T5?

fixd

Here is a shooting damage chart I made. The numbers are "percent of the shooting units point-cost killed in a round of shooting". So shoota-boyz will kill 24% of their own points worth of tactical marines per shooting phase. After four rounds of killing tactical marines the shootaboyz will have paid for themselves. Regards

what about an assback with girlyman support?

 koooaei wrote:
what about an assback with girlyman support?

Such armies allways has one weakness. They cluster vehicles and core hq's close together. If you aim to kill the vehicles and they suffer from explosions, the damage to the enemy is tremedous.

This relies heavily on some luck for rolling those explosions.


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In this regard it's fun to think of the guilly reroll clusters as death stars, and killing them with vehicle explosions is like the death star attack in star wars: seems impossible but devastating. Use the waagh!

 koooaei wrote:
what about an assback with girlyman support?

What exactly is the points-cost of a Assault-cannon razorback with Guilliman buff? I mean, how much of Girlymans price should be factored into the equation?

At any rate, I find it hilarious that Gretchin will shoot up Leman Russes more effectively than Killa Kans with rokkits. But they will.

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Protip: if you want to make an assertion sound more reasonable, always give it in the form of a range, even if its a range of exactly one number.

(I know its a typo but its funnier to imagine it this way)

LOL nailed it, it was in fact a typo on my phone. 2-3 pts is what I meant to say,

In regards to making it BETTER rather then CHEAPER. Assault 5 would still be overpriced at 6pts. I might up the anti to 4-5pts but honestly there is no point to taking a Big shoota OR a Rokkit right now except that its required on a number of vehicles.

And to the person who says "Well SMs etc etc." well here is the thing, you factored in the model carrying it, Ok so what about the other dozens of models who can carry it? should we factor that in as well? No? then don't factor it in on the one example that benefits your case, also since you seem to think that they are equal, Boyz aren't ever going to be using it to hit on a 5+ because they need to be advancing most of the time to get in range to assault. Since that is the case this is a side upgrade and should be priced absurdly low to compensate for the fact that it lowers the # of attacks on the model carrying it. Realistically a SM with a Heavy bolter either on a vehicle or on an infantry unit is going to stand still most of the game, an Ork with a Big shoota is going to be moving all over the board, either to get into CC or in the case of vehicles, to get in range to drop off CC units.

Again raw stats:

Heavy Bolter, S5 AP-1 Range 36 Heavy 3 Hits on a 3+ (easily buffed to reroll) 10pts
Big Shoota: S5 AP0 Range 36 Assault 3 hits on a 5+ (advancing makes it a 6+) 6pts

the hit modifier alone justifies the price difference, the AP value difference makes the Big shoota over priced compared to the Heavy Bolter. And finally the fact that we don't have any buffs for shooting worth mentioning means that this is a forced item that we have to include otherwise it wouldn't be taken. Example, How many of you would gladly field a Trukk without a Big Shoota this edition if it dropped the price by 6pts? Another example would be, how many take the ridiculously over priced rokkit on Killa Kanz or the KMB instead of the Big Shoota even though its the cheapest weapon possible?

SemperMortis wrote:
And to the person who says "Well SMs etc etc." well here is the thing, you factored in the model carrying it, Ok so what about the other dozens of models who can carry it? should we factor that in as well? No? then don't factor it in on the one example that benefits your case, also since you seem to think that they are equal, Boyz aren't ever going to be using it to hit on a 5+ because they need to be advancing most of the time to get in range to assault. Since that is the case this is a side upgrade and should be priced absurdly low to compensate for the fact that it lowers the # of attacks on the model carrying it. Realistically a SM with a Heavy bolter either on a vehicle or on an infantry unit is going to stand still most of the game, an Ork with a Big shoota is going to be moving all over the board, either to get into CC or in the case of vehicles, to get in range to drop off CC units.

I don't see a problem with factoring in the dozens of other models that can carry it. I didn't because that would take many pages of writing and several nights worth of my free time. I limited it to a regular Space Marine because that's what you brought up. I don't understand why it's fair to bring up the cost of a Space Marine weapon and the BS it is hitting at but not factor in the cost of the total cost of the model.

Also, in my post I brought up the problem of Space Marines getting re-rolls and the problem of Orks always advancing. My whole point was that I'd rather see Orks get buffs to shooting and I'd like to see changes made that make it worthwhile to sometimes move and shoot Boyz rather than always advance. I think those type of changes would be preferable to dropping the cost of the Big Shoota.

I regularly move and shoot with my shootaboyz. It is a good thing to do whenever you can move them within 18" shoota range but not to expect to advance them within 8-9" charge range.

And I really don't think that Big Shootas worth six points, but even if they were 2 or 3 points they still wouldn't matter. Their statline is simply way too weak to make a difference, regardless of cost. And to fix that the Big Shootas needs a buff like one or more of the following:

1) Change them from Assault 3 to Rapid Fire 3

2) Change them to Assault 5

3) Give them AP -1

4) Give them S 6

I think it would be hilarious if Big Shootas were Rapid Fire 6, Range 24", S4, AP0. I would gladly pay 10 points for that.

pismakron wrote:
I regularly move and shoot with my shootaboyz. It is a good thing to do whenever you can move them within 18" shoota range but not to expect to advance them within 8-9" charge range.

And I really don't think that Big Shootas worth six points, but even if they were 2 or 3 points they still wouldn't matter. Their statline is simply way too weak to make a difference, regardless of cost. And to fix that the Big Shootas needs a buff like one or more of the following:

1) Change them from Assault 3 to Rapid Fire 3

2) Change them to Assault 5

3) Give them AP -1

4) Give them S 6

I think it would be hilarious if Big Shootas were Rapid Fire 6, Range 24", S4, AP0. I would gladly pay 10 points for that.

I would never pay 10 pts for a Rapid fire 6 Range 24 S4 no AP weapon....That is literally a slightly better version of a Kustom Shoota which is a 4pt upgrade and nobody takes that because its crap to begin with.

IF anything, I would say make it Assault 6 and give it a rending rule, 6s cause AP-1, and keep it at 6pts, then maybe I wouldn't mind taking them when required.

Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

The funny thing is that 4 assault cannon razorbacks + Guilliman is pretty much the same amount of points and damage output as 7 unbuffed assault cannon razorbacks. Most would probably go for the Guilliman parking lot, but I think the seven vanilla AC razorbacks probably has a bit more flexibility.

Someone just placed 14th at the Warhammer World GT playing Orks. Does anyone have the list?

According to Ceri it was ”lots and lots of Mek guns and grots”.

The other list, which ended up in 72nd place, had 170 boyz.

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

The funny thing is that 4 assault cannon razorbacks + Guilliman is pretty much the same amount of points and damage output as 7 unbuffed assault cannon razorbacks. Most would probably go for the Guilliman parking lot, but I think the seven vanilla AC razorbacks probably has a bit more flexibility.

That's not always the case. "Just assbacks" are vulnerable to assaults. Whereas girlyman can stomp faces. Besides, he can buff not just assbacks but also other stuff.

Can you guys give me some general tips before the first game with orks.
General strat? Teleport choppa boyz turn one, advance with everyone else except artilery?
How to handle various characters with force multipliers? Do they just trundle along with the non-teleported boyz?

Teleport shoota boyz. You have a chance of about 50% to fail the charge, with shoota boyz you still have some value when you do. 30 boyz will annihilate what they charge, whether they are wielding choppas or not. Most likely you are going to be charging bubble wrap anyways. Shoota boyz can put some wounds on a second unit as well due to increased range.
And, from experience, they are dead by turn 2 anyways.

Don't hold the characters too far back. At most have two rows of boyz of them, otherwise they will get pulled out of formation when you charge and can easily be sniped by flying/deep striking enemies, or you might lose your aura. Conga-line to your buffs whenever possible.
Try to keep and alley for heroic interventions when a counter-charge is likely next turn. Don't pick fights with targets that can kill your characters unless you are sure they go down first.

Advance all melee units all the time. Ignore terrain, you will never have cover. Don't shoot what you plan on charging, or you will increase your charge range.

How should Kustom Force Field be handled?

I haven't really found a golden way for the KFF on hordes yet, but I put priority on holding objectives and making charges over staying underneath the KFF.
I've also had good success with spending CP on advance rolls of for big meks during the first two turns.

Once you have reached the enemy lines, KFF efficiency drops by a lot. Don't forget that a big mek with no upgrades but the KFF still has 4 S5 attacks on his profile.

So I'm working on my walker list and I have a thought. Killa Kanz are Ld 6, meaning if only one dies you could lose another to morale. Would it be better to field each Kan as its own unit? This makes them immune to morale, though they lose out on an extra attack for having 3 in a squad. Plus, this makes it easier for the squad to get cover bonuses, they can cover more ground, and it creates more units for the enemy to shoot at.

 Oguhmek wrote:
According to Ceri it was ”lots and lots of Mek guns and grots”.

The other list, which ended up in 72nd place, had 170 boyz.

I hate to say it like this but it sounds like he just slow played the gak out of a gun line and grot horde.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
How should Kustom Force Field be handled?

They are good with vehicles. I have some trukks and battle wagons and it's easy to get them in the aura. As per "designer notes", any rule with the wording "entirely within", such as the kff or terrain cover bonus, means all models in units must be partially within. So giving cover to a 30 boyz blob is hard, while for some trukks it's easy to qualify being within 9". I have my kff on a big mek on bike, so he can keep up with the vehicles. Pain boy is easier to buff foot hordes with, as only one model for the unit has to be within his range.

So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

In a foot list a Big Mek with a KFF is very potent against things like assault cannon razorbacks, heavy bolters, heavy flamers and intercessors. But he is not an auto include. Simply fielding more boyz has its advantages, and gives you a lot more freedom in positioning.

My advice would be to experiment a little. I used to bring the KFF-mek and then stopped doing it. In my last game I went back to bringing two.

Da Jump also requires some experience to use well. Knowing when and where to jump is a bit of a black art. Jumping 30 (or 40) shoota-boyz ahead can be a very strong move, but sometimes you want to position them at 15-16" distance rather than nine inches. And sometimes putting them behind blocking terrain on an objective is the thing to do. Regards

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

KFF big mekz have their uses. I don't think they are top tier in our index either but whatever. I use one on a Bike to give mobile ++ to stormboyz when I field them. Otherwise I tend not to bother with them at all because I run a Kommandos list and don't have enough bunched together to make it worth taking.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

Well even though Foot horde is considered better than vehicles, if you choose to use vehicles anyway the KFF is pretty much essential. Trukks are almost helpless agains heavy weapons without KFF but can sometimes weather incredible firepower with it and ramshackle together. Vehicles are expensive, but in my book they are worth it for the certain right units. Tankbustas in particular, but also Meganobs and flash gitz to some extent. Burnaboyz also need a vehicle but it's not enough to save them from all the other issues they are plauged with (d3 shots,why?.... )

trukk boyz or gretchin wagons are fun in concept, but too expensive for what they can do, and mostly end up wastly outgunned and outnumbered.

The fact that vehicle heavy lists are generally meh doesn't mean people aren't playing them. A lot of ork players don't really like hordes.

As for my experience with a big mek, i've only fielded him once with a walker wall. It was a casual game against necrons, so he was ok. KFF didn't do much but hey, it's just 20 pts now, so a single saved lazcannon pays off for it. Repairs were handy.

Didn't bother to run a big mek with horde lists. Hordes are allready cumbersome and buff dependent. Don't really want to restrict movement even more than that. You allready need a warboss to babysit boyz, boyz to bauble wrap widboyz...and don't forget about painboyz and banner nobz. They all have auras. If you add in another even more annoying bauble, it's just gona turn into warmahammer.

I would not put too much faith in the unit rankings on the first page. The barrier of entry for being top tier in the Ork Index is depressingly low.

Also, the KMK definitely needs to be bumped up several spots.

Yeah, hard to call deff dread's damage output "very good". If something, i'd rate it below average for the price. Just compare to a marine venerable dread that costs ~the same and easilly outpunches and outshoots a deffdread. Not even telling about easy access to supportive buffs.

I also think that a burna bomber needs a bump to yellow while a blitza bomber needs a downgrade to red. After some playtesting, burna bomber at least has a purpose of frightening the enemy with it's 4+ explosion.

Has anyone tried manz after the point drop? I'll probably have a chance around june.

 koooaei wrote:

....
Has anyone tried manz after the point drop? I'll probably have a chance around june.

When a unit get a point drop and no rules change, what is there really to test in game? I mean I play manz, I know what they are good at and what they can or can't do. None of that has changed. It's nice to get some more spare points, but the unit is still as durable, slow and hit as hard as before.

I liked them and needed them in my army before. The same is true now.

pismakron wrote:
I would not put too much faith in the unit rankings on the first page. The barrier of entry for being top tier in the Ork Index is depressingly low.

Also, the KMK definitely needs to be bumped up several spots.

Every since the points decrease, yeah, they're really good. I actually just bought another kit to bump mine up to three total.

So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

 godswildcard wrote:
So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

The Kustom Mega Kannon is a plasma cannon at BS4+. Because the vast majority of ork shooting is not costed for BS5+, it is one of the few options in the index that are not vastly overcosted.

It's not great, just so-so...but compared to the rest of our shooting it's fantastic.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

The Kustom Mega Kannon is a plasma cannon at BS4+. Because the vast majority of ork shooting is not costed for BS5+, it is one of the few options in the index that are not vastly overcosted.

It's not great, just so-so...but compared to the rest of our shooting it's fantastic.

KMK now outshoots most artilery in the game tbh.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


KMK now outshoots most artilery in the game tbh.

Yes. At 42 points they have gone from decent to really good. In fact, now they out-shoot Obliterators. The KMK is probably our second best unit after boyz. Regards

Gitdakka wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

....
Has anyone tried manz after the point drop? I'll probably have a chance around june.

When a unit get a point drop and no rules change, what is there really to test in game? I mean I play manz, I know what they are good at and what they can or can't do. None of that has changed. It's nice to get some more spare points, but the unit is still as durable, slow and hit as hard as before.

I liked them and needed them in my army before. The same is true now.

It does matter a whole lot. 3 ppm conscripts were good. 4 ppm conscripts are pointless.

KFF are good with hordes basically because they protect the troops against shooting in turns 1-2 if you go second. That's their main goal. By turn 3 you should have managed to get into assault, otherwise your army is probably dead already.

I've tried meganobz after CA, they're not that bad, I field 3-5 of them all with dual killsaws. For only 6 points more you'll get make the quite better in CC, I'd only leave 1 or maybe 2, in a big unit, equipped with pk and kustom shoota just to be the first one to be removed as casualty.

3 in a trukk or 5 in a BW, sometimes joined by 10 boyz in the wagon. But I play with transports, only in a few occasions I use footsloggers, I don't think meganobz match good with green tides.

Not a tournament unit anyway.

I want to try running them as passangers for 3 big trakks with megaskorchas. Unfortunately, i only have 3 dual killsaw models, so 1 per squad. Others are regular klaws and shootas and 3 with klaws and k-skorchas. If i get the math right, killsaws are almost always better than klaws. The only notable exception are 3-wound models and models that halve recieved damage.

 koooaei wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

....
Has anyone tried manz after the point drop? I'll probably have a chance around june.

When a unit get a point drop and no rules change, what is there really to test in game? I mean I play manz, I know what they are good at and what they can or can't do. None of that has changed. It's nice to get some more spare points, but the unit is still as durable, slow and hit as hard as before.

I liked them and needed them in my army before. The same is true now.

It does matter a whole lot. 3 ppm conscripts were good. 4 ppm conscripts are pointless.

Im not saying it does not matter. They used to cost 63 withsaws now they cost 48. That's nice. But they feel and play pretty much the same on the board as before. I still bring 3 but now i can also bring 6 more boyz.

If there is one new thing they can do after CA it's to mob up 2 units of manz into one huge murder machine. I doubt any one has tried that. They would eat command points, 1 for mob up and 2 everytime they fear morale. I still want to try it some day though. Imagine the synergy. With da jump and warpath

Aren't they 50 points with twin saws and 42 in the cheapest configuration?

At any rate, I think neither option compares well with a Boss Nob with PK and 9 ablative wounds for 73 points. And those ablative wounds can also do a bit of damage.

pismakron wrote:
Aren't they 50 points with twin saws and 42 in the cheapest configuration?

At any rate, I think neither option compares well with a Boss Nob with PK and 9 ablative wounds for 73 points. And those ablative wounds can also do a bit of damage.

Hmm might be so. im using battlescribe, and assumed they got it right.
Well if you compare 10 boyz with pk nob and meganobz, I think there is a lot you can do with concentrated power units that many MSU boyz can't:
-da jump them together
-Transport them together
-charge and cc activate them together.
-fit all the models in cc.

But MSU boyz have other advantages of course. Depends on what you need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And manz with cover bonus are far more durable than boyz. With cover bonus they ignore lascannonson 4+ and they laugh at small arms fire.
While boyz MSU dies in droves and have to handle the morale effects

How many dual killsaw nobz can you build out of a box of MANz?

With the point drop, they look decent as passengers for battlewagons. I might borrow some before buying them though.

 Jidmah wrote:
How many dual killsaw nobz can you build out of a box of MANz?

With the point drop, they look decent as passengers for battlewagons. I might borrow some before buying them though.

3 killsaw dudes, or 3 combi weapon, or one mekk

pismakron wrote:
Aren't they 50 points with twin saws and 42 in the cheapest configuration?

At any rate, I think neither option compares well with a Boss Nob with PK and 9 ablative wounds for 73 points. And those ablative wounds can also do a bit of damage.

42 points with kustom shoota and pk, 48 with two killsaws.

There are 3 pair of killsaws in the meganobz kit, so you can all equip them with killsaws without relying on conversions or bitz sites. Their weapons can also be replaced without glueing them.

pismakron wrote:
Aren't they 50 points with twin saws and 42 in the cheapest configuration?

At any rate, I think neither option compares well with a Boss Nob with PK and 9 ablative wounds for 73 points. And those ablative wounds can also do a bit of damage.

Units with multiple PK can actually threaten vehicles and monsters, while nob+boyz don't. A Mortarion or DG Daemon prince with plate will probably just laugh at the mob while they fail to hurt them.
For a mob of 29 boyz with PK nob you could also get 4 KS nobz. In a tide that's a waste because they will simply draw all anti-tank to them, but it's definitely an option for transport or walker lists. The gargantuan squiggoth that keeps placing well might be interested in using them.

They synergize better with vehicles, planes and artillery since pure anti-infantry weapons are mostly wasted on them and even overcharged plasma that is shot at them is not killing weagons, trukks or walkers instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
There are 3 pair of killsaws in the meganobz kit, so you can all equip them with killsaws without relying on conversions or bitz sites. Their weapons can also be replaced without glueing them.

Thanks! Gotta love ork kits.

 Blackie wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Aren't they 50 points with twin saws and 42 in the cheapest configuration?

At any rate, I think neither option compares well with a Boss Nob with PK and 9 ablative wounds for 73 points. And those ablative wounds can also do a bit of damage.

42 points with kustom shoota and pk, 48 with two killsaws.

How do you get 48? Isn't it 25 for the meganob and 25 for twin saws?

Another question, this time regarding the gargantuan squiggoth.

Supa-Lobba or Kilkannon?

Supa-Lobba has a longer range, 3D6 shots, S7 AP-2 D1
Kilkannon has 6 Shots, S7 AP-2 D2

Seems like a toss up to me...guaranteed 6 shots and 2 damage vs statistically more shots and greater range.Thoughts?

 godswildcard wrote:
Another question, this time regarding the gargantuan squiggoth.

Supa-Lobba or Kilkannon?

Supa-Lobba has a longer range, 3D6 shots, S7 AP-2 D1
Kilkannon has 6 Shots, S7 AP-2 D2

Seems like a toss up to me...guaranteed 6 shots and 2 damage vs statistically more shots and greater range.Thoughts?

Forge world killkannon was faqed to d6 like the index. Take the supa lobba

KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

xmbk wrote:
KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

Doesn't sound easy to me. Cramming 90 models within a 9" bubble. But haven't tried it so maybe I underestimate it.

Gitdakka wrote:

xmbk wrote:
KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

Doesn't sound easy to me. Cramming 90 models within a 9" bubble.

agreed, that's less space than you think, it's quite difficult to get not only boys but other stuff in there as well.

question, if half a squad is covered by a KFF and the other half of the squad is covered by a different KFF, would that grant them the save?

Nuck Fewton wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

xmbk wrote:
KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

Doesn't sound easy to me. Cramming 90 models within a 9" bubble.

agreed, that's less space than you think, it's quite difficult to get not only boys but other stuff in there as well.

question, if half a squad is covered by a KFF and the other half of the squad is covered by a different KFF, would that grant them the save?

Good question. I think not because of the wording:
- if this model has kff, units entirely within 9" gain benefit
Instead of how it could have been worded:
-Units entirely within 9" of any kff gain benefit...

pismakron wrote:

How do you get 48? Isn't it 25 for the meganob and 25 for twin saws?

Killsaw's price is now 15 for the single weapon, 23 for the twin version.

I've done 3 Mobs of boyz under the KFF with room to spare. The only thing is that you give up a lot of board control and the durability boost isn't that impressive, even if you put a painboy in as well. I rely now on Kommandos and hide my Boyz behind LOS cover and Da Jump them to their targets.

Nuck Fewton wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

xmbk wrote:
KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

Doesn't sound easy to me. Cramming 90 models within a 9" bubble.

agreed, that's less space than you think, it's quite difficult to get not only boys but other stuff in there as well.

My first thought - I don't think he knows how KFF works.

 Jidmah wrote:

For a mob of 29 boyz with PK nob you could also get 4 KS nobz. In a tide that's a waste because they will simply draw all anti-tank to them, but it's definitely an option for transport or walker lists. The gargantuan squiggoth that keeps placing well might be interested in using them.

GSquig can't carry MA, unfortunately and annoyingly. Ghaz would look great on one.

Gitdakka wrote:

xmbk wrote:
KFF can pretty easily cover 3 mobs of 30 Boyz, with support chars in the middle. It's very points efficient, and frustrating for opponents trying to thin the horde.

Doesn't sound easy to me. Cramming 90 models within a 9" bubble. But haven't tried it so maybe I underestimate it.

A 9" radius bubble (slightly larger because of the base of the Mek, and only needing part of your base in the bubble to be within 9") covers ~255 Sq in. So fitting 90 orks with essentially 1 sq in base within a 255 sq in space is not that hard to do. All that happens is that you essentially give up a lot of board presence and mobility to do so.

Exactly. And if you factor on a Big Mek KFF, a painboy and a warboss and a Weirdboy you are looking at a pretty hefty points investment that is taking up an extremely small section of the board.

Yup you take up about 1/13th of the table, instead of those 90 boyz taking up 25% or more easily. Also once you start moving advance rolls will end up slowing you down if you want to stay together because you will need to move equal to the slowest unit if you want to stay together.

Really the best it does is give you a little extra anti-alpha strike durability, but after that I think buff characters really hamper orks from winning.

 godswildcard wrote:
Another question, this time regarding the gargantuan squiggoth.

Supa-Lobba or Kilkannon?

Supa-Lobba has a longer range, 3D6 shots, S7 AP-2 D1
Kilkannon has 6 Shots, S7 AP-2 D2

Seems like a toss up to me...guaranteed 6 shots and 2 damage vs statistically more shots and greater range.Thoughts?

My vote is actually for the Big Zzappa, which comes in 60 pts cheaper for the pair than Supa Lobbas.

Slightly less range, but higher average damage with Ap - 4 and D4.

2D6 strength is just risky I guess, but that's always been the case with Zzap Guns. The average is S7 but there's always the risk of those snake eyes.

 Shooms wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
Another question, this time regarding the gargantuan squiggoth.

Supa-Lobba or Kilkannon?

Supa-Lobba has a longer range, 3D6 shots, S7 AP-2 D1
Kilkannon has 6 Shots, S7 AP-2 D2

Seems like a toss up to me...guaranteed 6 shots and 2 damage vs statistically more shots and greater range.Thoughts?

My vote is actually for the Big Zzappa, which comes in 60 pts cheaper for the pair than Supa Lobbas.

Slightly less range, but higher average damage with Ap - 4 and D4.

2D6 strength is just risky I guess, but that's always been the case with Zzap Guns. The average is S7 but there's always the risk of those snake eyes.

All shooting options on the Garg Squiggoth are garbage, as they hit on a 6+ whenever the Garg is moving. So pick whatever is cheapest.

How do we get the most out of vehicles? I loved using a killtank full of tankbustas before chapter approved but now I think it’s just too pricey. Are trukks even worth it? How do you kit out battlewagons. Is there anything forgeworld can offer us apart from the giggidy squiggly?

BAN wrote:
How do we get the most out of vehicles? I loved using a killtank full of tankbustas before chapter approved but now I think it’s just too pricey. Are trukks even worth it? How do you kit out battlewagons. Is there anything forgeworld can offer us apart from the giggidy squiggly?

I hate to be the Debby downer again but there aren't any transports worth taking in a competitive meta. If you are playing a casual game and neither of you is trying to hard then Trukkz and wagons can be taken but aren't worth their points in anyway.
I can't see our transports being useful unless they receive about a 40-50% price cut. And unfortunately for me, I love playing battlewagons as tanks and none of their shooting is worth a damn even in friendly competition.

pismakron wrote:

All shooting options on the Garg Squiggoth are garbage, as they hit on a 6+ whenever the Garg is moving. So pick whatever is cheapest.

This is essentially what I've done. Despite the kill kannons being slightly cheaper, they suck.

Well you are basically taking the Squiggoth as a CC monster and the shooting is literally a tax....what does that say about the state of Ork shooting?

I mean hell if I could I'd take killakanz with 2CCWs rather then a ranged handicap. Same thing for the gorkanaut, take away the rokkitz, Big Shoota and deffstorm shoota or whatever and give it a price cut and let me keep its CC abilities. A twin Rokkit and Quad BS cost 50pts and the other thing is easily another 35-50pts. I would gladly give up that shooting for a cheaper Naut

I think we all would, I don't think anyone is pretending that the majority of our shooting isnt rubbish. But at this point we're stuck with discussing the best bad choices.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

The Kustom Mega Kannon is a plasma cannon at BS4+. Because the vast majority of ork shooting is not costed for BS5+, it is one of the few options in the index that are not vastly overcosted.

It's not great, just so-so...but compared to the rest of our shooting it's fantastic.

KMK now outshoots most artilery in the game tbh.

Wow...I hadn't realized that they are basically Basilisks with half the wounds and less than half the cost...minus the extreme range. Also...unlike the Basalisk, they never degrade.

The reason this is so good is that we are normally the ones paying for overcosted defense, often getting little in the bargain.

In this case, we can get 5 guns for price of 2 in the guard, and we actually have more wounds.

AND we have 5 to 2 offense ratio, OVER AM, for the same points.

And we can drop all 5 in 1 go during deployment.

Time to convert my lobbas.....

Thinking of ordering 2 more (for 5 total) :p

I've only got one KMK at the moment. I might pick up some more, especially since I'd like to eventually have a battery of each Mek Gun (I'm thinking one official model and then filling out the rest of the unit with kitbashed parts). I'm having a hard time deciding what to focus my hobby time and money on right now though. I hope our Codex comes out soon, but it's probably going to be at least a few months.

Right now I'm working on a list for a local tournament series. It's 1500 points and no Supreme Command detachments. I'm not fast enough to play Green Tide on the clock, so I was thinking about trying a low model count T8 army. A Gorkanaut, a Meka-Dread, a Kill Tank, a Battle Wagon and maybe a Battalion if I can fit it.

I don't think it would be particularly competitive, but it would be fast to play and I own one of each of those models (and more Battle Wagons). My thinking was that a bunch of high-toughness wounds protected by a KFF might be hard for some lists to deal with, and maybe I could spring Boyz out of the BW and Kill Tank to take objectives and/or mop up infantry once I've closed the distance. I'm having a hard time fitting it into 1500 points though and I'm not sure which element to cut.

Would our shooting become worthwhile if all our blasts instead of D6 shots would suddenly become a D3 autohits? (2D3 instead of 2D6 etc)

Grot artillery could be exception.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Thinking of ordering 2 more (for 5 total) :p

Dude, just don't. Grot artillery is one of the easiest thing to convert (it's a good practice for orks in general). In fact, if someone was to ask me how to start learning how to kitbash/scratchbuild, I'd probably tell him to make a kannon or 2.

Does Ghazghkull himself get an extra attack on charge from his Great Waaagh! ability?

Nora wrote:
Does Ghazghkull himself get an extra attack on charge from his Great Waaagh! ability?

Yep.

He's a clan ork within 6" of himself, so yes.

Interested to know, due to our shooting being so garbage, what would you prefer...

Double shots on EVERYTHING, or no negative modifiers on shooting?

I'm yet to dive in to 8th as waiting for the codex, but I keep an eye on the forum regularly and can see that shooting is just awful currently.

 Beatonator wrote:
Interested to know, due to our shooting being so garbage, what would you prefer...

Double shots on EVERYTHING, or no negative modifiers on shooting?

I'm yet to dive in to 8th as waiting for the codex, but I keep an eye on the forum regularly and can see that shooting is just awful currently.

Both options are examples of poor low-effort rules writing, even by GW standards.

Double shots on everything would break the game, and make every game a matter of the Ork player tabling any non-ork player.

No negative modifiers would be extremely powerful in a few matchups, but do very little for us in many others. It would buff our movement more than it would buff our shooting

 JimOnMars wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

The Kustom Mega Kannon is a plasma cannon at BS4+. Because the vast majority of ork shooting is not costed for BS5+, it is one of the few options in the index that are not vastly overcosted.

It's not great, just so-so...but compared to the rest of our shooting it's fantastic.

KMK now outshoots most artilery in the game tbh.

Wow...I hadn't realized that they are basically Basilisks with half the wounds and less than half the cost...minus the extreme range. Also...unlike the Basalisk, they never degrade.

The reason this is so good is that we are normally the ones paying for overcosted defense, often getting little in the bargain.

In this case, we can get 5 guns for price of 2 in the guard, and we actually have more wounds.

AND we have 5 to 2 offense ratio, OVER AM, for the same points.

And we can drop all 5 in 1 go during deployment.

Time to convert my lobbas.....

Not saying that they are bad, but the basilisk comparison is a poor one, they are -1S, don't have unlimited range, routinely do wounds to themselves and don't ignore LOS so are significantly less durable. Sadly in a match between the 2 the 2 basilisks will win every time.

pismakron wrote:

 Beatonator wrote:
Interested to know, due to our shooting being so garbage, what would you prefer...

Double shots on EVERYTHING, or no negative modifiers on shooting?

I'm yet to dive in to 8th as waiting for the codex, but I keep an eye on the forum regularly and can see that shooting is just awful currently.

Both options are examples of poor low-effort rules writing, even by GW standards.

Double shots on everything would break the game, and make every game a matter of the Ork player tabling any non-ork player.

No negative modifiers would be extremely powerful in a few matchups, but do very little for us in many others. It would buff our movement more than it would buff our shooting

I think you're drastically overstating the effectiveness of Ork shooting if you think making us shoot twice would lead to automatic tabling.

Plus it's not that simple. Ork shooting units lack survivability, due to low armour saves and cover being both difficult to get and of minimal benefit to Orks. So they tend to need transports, but our transport options are all overpriced and not particularly survivable. Shooting twice would turn some units into glass cannons (Lootas spring to mind straight away) and leave others still useless (Deffkoptas even shooting 4 rokkits still only statistically hit once). Nobs with Kombi-Skorchas would become insane, IF they could get close enough (and they can't shoot their Skorchas the turn they show up from Da Jump).

Basically double shooting just makes our better shooting units better and leaves our bad shooting units still bad.

BAN wrote:
How do we get the most out of vehicles? I loved using a killtank full of tankbustas before chapter approved but now I think it’s just too pricey. Are trukks even worth it? How do you kit out battlewagons. Is there anything forgeworld can offer us apart from the giggidy squiggly?

Played against DE the other day and two squads of Tankbustas in Trukks were my absolute MVP units. Take 8 or more bustas per unit to get the most out of Dakkadakka-stratagem (I don't think I'd ever use the stratagem outside of bustas). With the rerolls you'll get surprisingly many extra hits with the stratagem. I think the gem is actually a bit underrated. Obviously you'll need a KFF for the Trukks and other relevant targets for enemy antitank as well. Oh and bring a well-oiled dice rolling wrist for all those KFF saves.

In before I'm told that they're too expensive and ineffective and I cannot win any tournaments with them... Well I play this game for FUN and I definitely had FUN with the units, YMMV.

Well let's take lootas as an example. If they shot 3-4 times on average instead of 2 (I will use 4 as an example).

Let's say I take 15 lootas.

SM Tacticals:
Before. 3 dead Marines. After 7 Dead Marines. So a 255pt unit took out 91pts of Marines in a shooting phase.

Vs a predator:
Before: 4-6 dmg. After: 10 dmg so the best ranged (emphasis on ranged) anti vehicle option we have, at max size is still statistically incapable of killing a single vehicle in one turn of mshooting.

Now, on the flipside of this, if that same tactical squad hoses down a unit of Lootas with just bolters, no special weapons or rules they will statistically kill 3 lootas a turn which equals 51pts gone. so that barebones 130pt squad earned back about 2/5ths its cost while the specialist shooting squad only earned back slightly less of its points cost. SMs earned 39.2 lootas 35.7

Now of course the averages here swing wildly in favor of lootas if they roll well, but likewise they swing just as badly for them if they roll 1s.

So overall, lootas would be about where they need to be if they were 2D3 instead of 1D3 for shots.

With a doubling of shots 4 KMK (168) points would be able to kill a Leman Russ every turn or almost take half the wounds off of Magnus. That would be hilariously OP for a couple of weeks until GW came back with the nerf hammer.

Lootas are not good right now, but increasing their damage output would just make them even more of a glass-cannon. A better strategy would be to cut their shooting and cost in half. An 8.5 point Loota with a single shot would be a quite superb unit, but thats not going to happen.

In general what we need for our weapon-options like rokkits and big shootas is more damage output. But what we need from our dedicated dakka-infantry (flashgitz, burnaboyz, tankbustas, lootas) is not more damage, it is more durability and a reduction in costs.

 Beatonator wrote:
Interested to know, due to our shooting being so garbage, what would you prefer...

Double shots on EVERYTHING, or no negative modifiers on shooting?

I'm yet to dive in to 8th as waiting for the codex, but I keep an eye on the forum regularly and can see that shooting is just awful currently.

Good question. Depends, I guess?

Units with few shots per points like buggies, koptaz, battlewagons or SAG would need double shots to become better, as they aren't good even when they have no modifiers to worry about.

All others could do with simply no modifiers. You could advance and shoot assault weapons and move with heavy weapons with no downsides. Plus lootaz and tank bustaz would become absolutely lethal to fliers.

In terms of raw power? Twice the shots is always equal or better unless the opponent has -2 to hit. -2 to hit is usually limited to a few units, you could simply blow up everything else with that kind of shooting. Some units would become outright bonkers with than kind of firepower, and I doubt a point increase could fix that since they are still just as fragile as they are now.

I think the best solution to ork shooting would be giving actual shooting units BS 4+ (big meks, spannaz, meks, lootaz, bommers, morkanauts, shoota boyz), doubling the shots of koptaz and buggies and give the battlewagon a skill like LRBT or fire prisms have - twice the shots when moving at half speed. 2x 12 big shoota shots, kannon/lobba/zappa and killkannon would actually do something, even at BS 5+. Maybe add a relic for BS 3+ to hit so the SAG becomes awesome.
And of course, properly cost all shooting weapons for BS 4+/5+.

Breng77 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So as someone that could be called a large large Grot with dreams of grandeur I got excited when I saw that a Mek Gunz/ Grot list had placed at a grand tournament, but I’ve seen several people skeptical of this.

I’m completely new to orks, so I’m curious as to what makes Mek Gunz good or bad. Why take them or not take them?

The Kustom Mega Kannon is a plasma cannon at BS4+. Because the vast majority of ork shooting is not costed for BS5+, it is one of the few options in the index that are not vastly overcosted.

It's not great, just so-so...but compared to the rest of our shooting it's fantastic.

KMK now outshoots most artilery in the game tbh.

Wow...I hadn't realized that they are basically Basilisks with half the wounds and less than half the cost...minus the extreme range. Also...unlike the Basalisk, they never degrade.

The reason this is so good is that we are normally the ones paying for overcosted defense, often getting little in the bargain.

In this case, we can get 5 guns for price of 2 in the guard, and we actually have more wounds.

AND we have 5 to 2 offense ratio, OVER AM, for the same points.

And we can drop all 5 in 1 go during deployment.

Time to convert my lobbas.....

Not saying that they are bad, but the basilisk comparison is a poor one, they are -1S, don't have unlimited range, routinely do wounds to themselves and don't ignore LOS so are significantly less durable. Sadly in a match between the 2 the 2 basilisks will win every time.

Less ST but better AP...nearly a wash. Their offense is about the same as a unit that is 250% the price. True, without ignoring LOS they may not be the backfield sniper that the Basilisk is, but in my experience, being 100% out of LOS is very hard anyway...making Bassie's big trick less important. Usually there is something good to hit within 36. Deploy well!! Once better known, they will soak up a lot of fire at 42 points...keeping the heat off of more expensive things.

Depends on your tables, I see a lot where putting a few basilisks out of LOS is really easy especially with unlimited range. Being out ranged by things like lascannons is also fairly relevant as those are the weapons that will largely take them out. I guess it depends on list composition though, in a heavy vehicle list that may be less of an issue, in a green tide list they are the obvious target for heavy weapons/.

Those 90 boyz threaten a lot more than 1/13 of the table, trust me. Especially with Ghaz in the middle. It's about as effective as Orks get right now. You obviously fill with grots to claim objectives and some more boyz. But you can't take any juicy targets for multi-wound weapons to target.

Most games that force is going to exert some decent board control, though it will struggle against dedicated gunlines in a non-objective based game.

Also, it's 8th edition - use movement trays.

Ok, since the topic is on one of my favorite units (mek gun) there are plenty of alternatives to buying realy expensive gw ones.
I Personaly convert my old killa kanz into gum toting bad orks, but I also found this site recently
https://miniaturescenery.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19
For the price of one gw gun you get 3 wit traktor like and plasma swaps for each.
Of course since it's laser etched wood you'll have to get different glue (instructions are right there on the page). Also while your at it check out their other ork is pure vehicles. If you want sweet looking warbuggies these guys have you covered.
Edit. Sorry if auto correct made some of this unreadable.

How does the Lifta Wagon fair in the current state of the game? It got a points drop from chapter approved by the lifta-droppa itself being reduced to 0 points. I've hardly seen any discussion about it online and I am curious as to peoples thoughts on it.

I guess it's kind of like a long-range targettable super smite. A really expensive one.

 JawRippa wrote:
Would our shooting become worthwhile if all our blasts instead of D6 shots would suddenly become a D3 autohits? (2D3 instead of 2D6 etc)

Grot artillery could be exception.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Thinking of ordering 2 more (for 5 total) :p

Dude, just don't. Grot artillery is one of the easiest thing to convert (it's a good practice for orks in general). In fact, if someone was to ask me how to start learning how to kitbash/scratchbuild, I'd probably tell him to make a kannon or 2.

If I can just buy something, rather than convert - I will. I got a deal with my FLGS owner as he's a good friend. I just take what I want and pay 100-200 a month. Which is why I can buy 200 models in a month and not feel anything on my wallet

You can still kitbash stuff. You can buy cheaper stuff like Trukk and make 3 Mek Gunz out of it and your spare parts. You'll spend less money and still buy from your friends shop. Tinkering with models is big part of fun you get from playing Orks. But then again, you are a Mathmech so this might not apply to you ^^

Azhday wrote:
You can still kitbash stuff. You can buy cheaper stuff like Trukk and make 3 Mek Gunz out of it and your spare parts. You'll spend less money and still buy from your friends shop. Tinkering with models is big part of fun you get from playing Orks. But then again, you are a Mathmech so this might not apply to you ^^

You can, but you are only really interested in KMK's

Just use the barrels of KMBs from lootas and dreads kits, if you have them, to make kitsbashed mek gunz count as KMKs witthout proxying.

I want stuff as close as possible model and color wise to how they're presented on the GW page, unless I really dislike a color.

geargutz wrote:
Ok, since the topic is on one of my favorite units (mek gun) there are plenty of alternatives to buying realy expensive gw ones.
I Personaly convert my old killa kanz into gum toting bad orks, but I also found this site recently
https://miniaturescenery.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19
For the price of one gw gun you get 3 wit traktor like and plasma swaps for each.
Of course since it's laser etched wood you'll have to get different glue (instructions are right there on the page). Also while your at it check out their other ork is pure vehicles. If you want sweet looking warbuggies these guys have you covered.
Edit. Sorry if auto correct made some of this unreadable.

Sorry, should've put a pic with the link. These models look great and are cheap. Though they are made of wood

I've never painted on wood and I dont know that I want to. Wouldn't the models naturally warp over time due to moisture? Or are these treated?

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I've never painted on wood and I dont know that I want to. Wouldn't the models naturally warp over time due to moisture? Or are these treated?

Personaly I have never worked with painting wood models, but checking online I found you can prevent warping with a sealer (maybe dip the model in a bucket?), then you can prime over the do painting as usual.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though basic painting does provide some protection from warping, and also most people don't leave their models outside and exposed to the elements. It should be fine with basic paint job.

They look really nice. If I had not already 8 ork vehicles I would buy the 'Arf Track for another one. Just to try it.

There is currently a discussion on facebook going where people think that Mob Rule should only work on the leadership characteristic...
NotLikeThis...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There is currently a discussion on facebook going where people think that Mob Rule should only work on the leadership characteristic...
NotLikeThis...

It already only works on the leadership characteristic.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There is currently a discussion on facebook going where people think that Mob Rule should only work on the leadership characteristic...
NotLikeThis...

What is the issue exactly?

I suppose giving said leadership characteristic to nearby units as well is an issue to somebody.

 Jidmah wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There is currently a discussion on facebook going where people think that Mob Rule should only work on the leadership characteristic...
NotLikeThis...

What is the issue exactly?

People are saying that the rule does not give the nearby unit's model count as leadership, just the leadership characteristic.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
There is currently a discussion on facebook going where people think that Mob Rule should only work on the leadership characteristic...
NotLikeThis...

What is the issue exactly?

People are saying that the rule does not give the nearby unit's model count as leadership, just the leadership characteristic.

But that is exactly how it works. You substitute the mob size for leadership characteristic meaning a mob of 30 is leadership 30. Now a nearby unit can use this leadership value. There's really no two ways to interpret this.

 Weazel wrote:
But that is exactly how it works. You substitute the mob size for leadership characteristic meaning a mob of 30 is leadership 30. Now a nearby unit can use this leadership value. There's really no two ways to interpret this.

This. The rule is simple and can only be interpreted in the way that everyone is currently playing it.

Exactly. The rule states "leadership", not "former, unbuffed leadership."

Which is why I think those people are really really stupid.
"But it can still mean the other way!"

People seriously want to nerf one of the things that work well for us this edition? Like I get people wanting morale wanting to do something but geez. Last thing we need is a commissar level errata.

Orks are never allowed to be the best at anything. LD30 is an affront to those people.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Orks are never allowed to be the best at anything. LD30 is an affront to those people.

It really does kind of seem like it sometimes doesn't it? It's like the fact that part of the Ork identity of being comic relief means we can't ever be seriously competitive.

It's actually ork players saying that >_>

I guess it can be interpreted in a way that, say you have a 30 boy blob, a 10 boy unit within 6 inches of it, and a unit of 5 nobz more than 6" away from a 30 boy blob but within 6"of a 10 boy squad. So, a 10 boy squad gets ld 30. And now nobz also get ld30 cause they can use 10 boy squad's ld that is now 30. Means you can chain high ld across the board. Which doesn't seem to be all that fair even to an ork player.

 koooaei wrote:
I guess it can be interpreted in a way that, say you have a 30 boy blob, a 10 boy unit within 6 inches of it, and a unit of 5 nobz more than 6" away from a 30 boy blob but within 6"of a 10 boy squad. So, a 10 boy squad gets ld 30. And now nobz also get ld30 cause they can use 10 boy squad's ld that is now 30. Means you can chain high ld across the board. Which doesn't seem to be all that fair even to an ork player.

But that is not how the mob rule works. Every unit gets its model count as its leadership. And any unit can use an adjacent units leadership instead of its own for morale purposes, but it keeps its own model count as its own leadership. So you cannot conga-line leadership that way.

A 12 boy unit next to a 28 boy unit will have leadership 12, but it can use the adjacent units leadership of 28 for morale purposes.

Many opponents don't understand that Ork blobs should be evenly wittled down, rather than finished off entirely.