Overall, we got points reductions across the board.
Reductions:
Mork - 20 pts
Skorchas - 12
Warbuggies - 11
Wartrakks - 12
Big Choppa - 2
Kilkannon - 12
Killsaw - 3
Two killsaws - 12
Kombi Rokkit - 6
Kopta rokkit - 4
Kustom Mega Kannon - 6
Power Klaw - 12
Rack of rokkits - 4
Shokk attack gun - 20
Twin Big shoota - 4
This means that the morkanaut got its base price reduced by 20, then the two twin big shootas shaves off another 8, and the kustom mega kannon is another 6, so that brings down the Morkanaut from 374 points (assuming you have a KFF) to 340. Not exactly the points decrease I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
Well, klaws didn't change to 14 points, so I guess I don't have to do a backflip!
Honestly, it all seems pretty fair - especially fixing our twin weapons.
The only thing that really surprised me were KMKs going down by 6 points. Those are already really good, and making them cheaper makes me suspicious.........
Kap'n Krump wrote: Well, klaws, didn't change to 14 points, so I guess I don't have to do a backflip!
Honestly, it all seems pretty fair - especially fixing our twin weapons.
The only thing that really surprised me were KMKs going down by 6 points. Those are already really good, and making them cheaper makes me suspicious.........
Hey, I'll take it. My lists are pretty heavy with those between my Morkanaut and my Mek Gunz.
No reduction for Trukks/BWs :/ And Warkopta is now the same price as Trukk (6 points more actually, cose of mandatory big shoota). Some of those changes seem more like "buy these things now" changes and less like balance changes.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Well, klaws, didn't change to 14 points, so I guess I don't have to do a backflip!
Honestly, it all seems pretty fair - especially fixing our twin weapons.
The only thing that really surprised me were KMKs going down by 6 points. Those are already really good, and making them cheaper makes me suspicious.........
I think it is a roundabout way of making the morkanaut cheaper. But great for running KMKs as Mel Gunz.
Also, the squiggoth is now almost as cheap as a Deff Dread, and the lifta droppa dropped 35 points.
But it is disappointing that they did not do anything about burnas, trukks, flash gitz, Deff Dreads and nob bikers.
Azhday wrote: No reduction for Trukks/BWs :/ And Warkopta is now the same price as Trukk (6 points more actually, cose of mandatory big shoota).
I am honestly disappointed with that. My two battlewagons are pretty much useless at the moment. In fact, I rarely use trukks anymore. I guess we can only hope our codex fixes them now, but again, powerklaws are super cheap now, so they might actually be worth taking again.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Guess stompas got the short end of the stick too, but someone in my group said taunars got doubled in points, so maybe I shouldn't complain too much.
Honestly with how stupidly expensive those are I completely forgot about those. They really need to be basically halved in points before they're useful.
pismakron wrote: A vanilla Painboy with s klaw is now 53 points. Not bad.
Oh, that's right. With the reduction of PKs, a lot of units went down in cost. In fact, that means MANz are only 42 points now. Still overpriced IMO, but it's something.
Man, I think 42 points for meganobz is a steal. Imperial terminators........
Hell, I was going to say they are now 41 points, but that's without wargear. Now they're, what, 55 points? For essentially the same save (5+ inlun on 2+ armor save is kind of useless) and one less wound?
N/m that's for grey knight terminators, not marines ones. Still, that's a bit painful.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Man, I think 42 points for meganobz is a steal. Imperial terminators........
Hell, I was going to say they are now 41 points, but that's without wargear. Now they're, what, 55 points? For essentially the same save (5+ inlun on 2+ armor save is kind of useless) and one less wound?
N/m that's for grey knight terminators, not marines ones. Still, that's a bit painful.
Remember that our shooting is still awful. Granted, this does make MANz more affordable, but still not usable in my opinion due to the fact that they basically never kill anything now. They swing 3 times, hit 1.5, and wound 1.25 times. Not exactly the trukk they were last game.
Most of their changes are good, but I must admit I expected to see more changes. I would say maybe they're trying to save space, but if so they made some weird choices about what to prioritize changing the points on. I'm really hoping they change more stuff in the Codex, and that they aren't thinking that they can fix everything with stratagems. I mean, stratagems can help a lot, but they can't fix everything.
Dr.Duck wrote: The KillTank costing upwards of 400 points is seriously bugging me.
120 point increase roughly 50%
Yeah, that's one thing that definitely has me a little sad as I bought a Kill Tank this summer and was working on a 3x Kill Tank list. Like Kap'n Krump said, it was probably undercosted before but I think they went too far. At first I thought they might have rolled the main gun into the cost as they were only two points different, but The Wargear section for the Orks is cut off in the photo, but it appears they are going in alphabetical order and that we are out of luck.
An Ork Kill Tank is pretty comparable to a Land Raider. A Land Raider is more durable and puts out a little more damage, while a Kill Tank is a better transport and better at melee. I'd say a Kill Tank is a little better than a Land Raider, but not a lot better. It used to be about 50 points less than a regular Land Raider. Now it's about 50 points more. I'd say it is still playable but not competitive, if that makes sense. Show up with it to a fun pickup game and you won't be crying, but don't expect to see it in any high placing lists at major tournaments.
SemperMortis wrote: And we still have no answer to vehicles at all, and rokkitz are ridiculous over priced. What fething moron do they have running the Ork army for GW?
pismakron wrote: Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.
What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.
15 tank bustas fit into truck? Since when?
Twelve tankbustas fit in a trukk. Or 2x5 + two squigs. Or 5 + 2 squigs + 5 Nobz. Or 10 tankbustas + weirdboy + Painboy. There are many useful combinations.
But list in question had 15 of them. Thus the question. 5ot 1a, not 2x5 but 15
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SemperMortis wrote: And we still have no answer to vehicles at all, and rokkitz are ridiculous over priced. What fething moron do they have running the Ork army for GW?
And codex is pretty much quaranteed to be far ahead. Tau and necrons seems to be next after daemons
I looked at the Space Marines points changes, and don't see the Chainfist listed, so strangely we pay a heck of a lot less for a single Killsaw than they do a Chainfist, and we can get a pair for the same price as a chainfist.
This might be going too far, but I wouldn't mind them dropping the Trukk to 6 wounds as long as it was coupled with a really big points drop. It would make a Trukk dangerous to put an expensive unit into, as there's a chance a single lucky hit will blow it up. Thematically though, and gameplay wise, I don't think Trukks should be mobile bunkers. I think we should be able to shoot out of them, and they could be a good ride for a semi-cheap unit like five Burna Boyz*, but I think their primary use should be rocketing up the field with Boyz as fast as possible. Battle Wagons* should be the vehicle that gets used as a mobile bunker or as a transport for expensive units.
*Burna Boyz and Battle Wagons need their own points drops.
Speaking of Battle Wagons, with the points drop on the Kill Kannon if we get a rule like Grinding Advance the Kill Kannon might actually be worth taking. What I was thinking would be really good the other day was if we got a version of Grinding Advance for the Battle Wagon that applied to all of its Heavy weapons. That way it would work on Big Gunz too. At BS 5+ the Big Gunz aren't worth it, but if they got to shoot twice they would be. A Battle Wagon with a Big Gun and a Kill Kannon that shoot twice, plus 4x Big Shootas/Rokkits and a shooty unit inside could finally be the mobile fortress that it is supposed to be.
It would be nice if they applied this to the Forge World Battlewagons as well. I was going to say just make it a part of the Mobile Fortress rule and apply that to everything that has it, as that would help make the heavy weapons on the Big Trakk viable. However, I just noticed that the Supa Skorcha is a Heavy weapon and having that shoot twice would probably be too much. Also if the Kill Tanks got to shoot their main weapon twice they would probably be back to being undercosted again.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Man, I think 42 points for meganobz is a steal. Imperial terminators........
Hell, I was going to say they are now 41 points, but that's without wargear. Now they're, what, 55 points? For essentially the same save (5+ inlun on 2+ armor save is kind of useless) and one less wound?
N/m that's for grey knight terminators, not marines ones. Still, that's a bit painful.
vanilla termies are 40 pts iirc. If they haven't changed in the index.
42 pts manz aren't too bad. They're relatively tanky. Do lack damage output severely but could at least have some use. Besides, 44 pts for a killsaw man ain't too bad either.
Words can scarcely convey how disappointed I am right now. Points changes were the one thing I had left to look forward to in CA and now they're out and they're...well, almost nothing. The power klaw drop is the only noticeable thing. Kopta Rokkits dropping by 4 points must be some sort of sick joke on GW's part; do they honestly think that makes them worth taking now? Walkers and Transports completely untouched despite being overpriced horribly. Most of our shooting units remain completely worthless.
Worst of all, this would seem to confirm the fears that myself and others have that there is no-one left on the rules team to champion Orks. These sparse changes reek of hand-waving; no-one truly invested in the army would consider this adequate.
Sorry for sounding so depressed but this is just a colossal let down.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Man, I think 42 points for meganobz is a steal. Imperial terminators........
Hell, I was going to say they are now 41 points, but that's without wargear. Now they're, what, 55 points? For essentially the same save (5+ inlun on 2+ armor save is kind of useless) and one less wound?
N/m that's for grey knight terminators, not marines ones. Still, that's a bit painful.
vanilla termies are 40 pts iirc. If they haven't changed in the index.
42 pts manz aren't too bad. They're relatively tanky. Do lack damage output severely but could at least have some use. Besides, 44 pts for a killsaw man ain't too bad either.
Yep, regular Terminators are still 40 points. It's funny, MANz (especially with double Killsawz) are really well-suited to killing Terminators because they have more attacks and on average their successful attacks will kill a Terminator while a Terminator's average successful attack will not kill a Meganob. However, Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (52 points) are especially well suited to killing MANz as they will usually one-hit a Meganob while the Stormshield will bounce most of the Meganob's attacks.
PK Warboss on Bike 111 => 99
Big Mek with SAG 100 => 80
Big Mek on Bike with SAG and Combi Rokkit 146 => 120
Meganob with PK 54 => 42
Meganob with dual saws 63 => 48
Nob with ammo runt and PK 46 => 34
Nob with ammo runt and Kombi-Rokkit 41 => 35
Biker nob with PK 67 => 55
Painboy with PK 65 => 53
Painboy with Killsaw 68 => 55
30 boyz with PK nob 205 => 193
Trukk boyz with PK nob (trukk included) 179 => 167
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
Jidmah wrote: I skipped stuff like Killsaw spanners that no one would take anyways.
Right now they're definitely not worth taking. After picking up the Tyranid codex I have a small hope that GW might give Orks the same treatment and price wargear differently depending on the ability of the unit taking it. Like, a cheap Killsaw for Spanners and a more expensive Killsaw for MANz and Big Meks. A cheap Rokkit for most Orks and a more expensive Rokkit for Killa Kanz and Tankbustas.
The differences between our models aren't quite as big as the differences between the bugs, but they still can be significant. Some things, like Big Shootas, are cheap enough that it doesn't really matter much what model they're going on.
koooaei wrote: I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
Yeah, that would work fine for Gretchins, Kans, the battlewagon, the guns, MANZ, bikers, koptas and stuff. Buff them rather than give them price reductions.
But the Deff dread needs a price reduction. Buff it's damage output and it becomes even more of a glass cannon; Give it more wounds and it ends up with a damage table. Also tankbustas and lootas are already to glass-cannony to just buff into viability, unless you give them power-armour and extra wounds or something. Also the trukk needs to be cheaper not better.
koooaei wrote: I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.
Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.
I definitely think my wartrakks will be taken out of retirement, even though I think it is odd that they would focus on buggies and ignore the deff-dread and flash-gits. Deffs and flash hits are both very popular models that are almost unusable right now.
Also, I think that KMK will see more use now that they are 42 points, which is really not that bad. Also Mek Gunz and Big Gunz are some of the only units that can work in a green tide without being either boyz or characters.
koooaei wrote: I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.
Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.
Lootas, burnas and tankbustas really need ablative wounds. Like a specialist weapons squads. If you could take a squad of 5-20 shoota boyz where some or all of them could be upgraded to lootas, tankbustas, burnas, then that would help a bit.
koooaei wrote: I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.
Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.
Lootas, burnas and tankbustas really need ablative wounds. Like a specialist weapons squads. If you could take a squad of 5-20 shoota boyz where some or all of them could be upgraded to lootas, tankbustas, burnas, then that would help a bit.
That would definitely help, kind of like how people can take Devastators without Heavy Weapons to act as ablative wounds (although you would actually see Ork players taking advantage of this while it's not usually worth it for Space Marine players). This was actually how it used to be for Tankbustas a long time ago. If I remember correctly a unit of Tankbustas came armed with sluggas, close combat weapons and tankbusta bombs and up to four of them could be upgraded to have rokkits. I think that Lootas were the same way (I never played with them because they were basically stuck with overpriced Imperial weapons and I thought they were a waste of points). I can't remember if Burna Boyz were limited to how many Burnas they could take or not. I do know that back then up to three Boyz in a Slugga or Shoota Boyz mob could be upgraded to have burnas (size didn't matter, you could have three special weapons whether it was a squad of ten or a squad of thirty) so that was effectively the same thing.
If they gave Burnas and Deffguns an appropriate point value and dropped the points of Burnas and Lootas down to being the same points as Boyz, then I think Spanners could do a decent job as ablative wounds. If they were hanging out with some Zzap Guns or KMKs they might actually even do something useful before dying. Also, if they made a Spanner version of the Kill Saw that was relatively cheap and made Burna Boyz cheaper (they seem to cost a lot for their damage output) then I think we might have an intersting situation where the Spanners are more valuable than the Burna Boyz.
For Tankbustas I think Tank Hammers need a serious drop in points and then they could serve as ablative wounds. Right now they cost 10 points, only 2 points less than a Tanbusta with a Rokkit Launcha. Bomb Squigs only cost 10 points and they are way more effective than Bustas with Tankhammers. If the price of the Tankhammer was dropped to maybe 3 points then they could help serve as ablative wounds.
I also wouldn't mind seeing Ammo Runts being handed out to even more units. Like, maybe a unit of Burna Boyz or Lootas could have one Ammo Runt for every five models. The re-rolls to hit would be almost useless for Lootas and completely useless for Burnas, but IIRC the description of what Ammo Runts do has always been written in the unit entry so maybe for those units it could be changed to something like "You may sacrifice an Ammo Runt to re-roll the number of attacks the unit gets to make in the shooting phase." (I don't know what they could do for Tankbustas, maybe sacrifice one to get exploding 6s?.)
koooaei wrote: I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.
Yeah, but we are not getting anything besides those point drops, the two mediocre stratagems, the close to useless warlord trait and the pretty decent relic.
Earliest date for upgrades is March 2018 since Daemons, Necrons and Tau are definitely coming before orks.
Not to mention how obvious GW has no clue what orks currently need. None of the changes addressed any problems we have.
But hey, everything is fine because orks can jump within 9" to ignore allaitoc and raven-guard hit modifiers!
I think the main reason gw dropped the price of buggies is that they will probably be the next release for the orks, seeing as they just don’t fit with the rest of the army and they will want them to be viable to put on the table, to justify buying them.
My poor deffkoptas though, I’d just finished painting 6 of them when 8th came out. Was hoping this would be the fix they needed
Has anything been mentioned about rules fixes for specific units without codexes, or is it literally points adjustments, strategems and warlord traits they are handing out to us codexless peasants?
Orks got some help but they still don't have the codex, which can fix some points costs. I didn't think GW would fix all the overpriced unit before the codex to be honest. And we should consider all the other factions, because if they received some help and effective points reductions, orks could even be in a worse spot than before.
Now they just can play with more bodies since the pks are cheaper. That's the only real help they received. But for 13 points I'll probably use them on nobz leading boyz squads.
Transports, vehicles and walkers are still overpriced and that makes meganobz quite hard to include in a list even if they are significantly cheaper now. The green tide will remain orks' best built.
I'm kinda baffled that Space Wolves (who don't have a codex either and) who I think are much better off than Orks got sweeping price reductions when the Orks basically got nothing.
Guess I'll try to make do with my Wolves and just play funny comedy games with my Orks and keep a sliver of hope alive that Orks get a proper Codex soon...
Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.
Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.
Tau and Necrons got no point adjustments at all. My guess is that they are next on the codex train after Dark Angels and Blood Angels in december.
Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.
Tau and Necrons got no point adjustments at all. My guess is that they are next on the codex train after Dark Angels and Blood Angels in december.
But scale of point drops are no real indication on codex order if any came. Orks or wolfs, either could come first. Propably wolves. Next 2 imperials, 3 non imperials. Likely more imperials next. After angels i think wolves are biggest #mperial faction without codex.
Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?
SemperMortis wrote: Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?
Not really. The biggest thing is that PKs may well be okay-ish rather than awful, and that KMK's probably are a decent option now. Also, I like the cheaper Painboy.
I am definitely going to try out the wartrakks in different configurations, not because I think they are suddenly good, but because they may not be horrible and they can be deployed into reserves.
I don't know what to think really. It seems like the Ork point-adjustments was done in five minutes. It is definitely a low effort job.
And then there is the warlord trait of +1 S? Seriously?
Weazel wrote: I'm kinda baffled that Space Wolves (who don't have a codex either and) who I think are much better off than Orks got sweeping price reductions when the Orks basically got nothing.
Guess I'll try to make do with my Wolves and just play funny comedy games with my Orks and keep a sliver of hope alive that Orks get a proper Codex soon...
Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.
SW codex changes are mostly copy&past from all other marine factions, little work went into that. Also, rumor has it that Leman Russ is the next Primarch and therefore SW will come out near the end of the codex queue.
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SemperMortis wrote: Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?
I haven't done the math, but PKs seem more efficient than BC again. Also Painboy is a viable option compared to Mad Dok once more and the relic is pretty much auto-take since it's better than a PK and costs less.
Buggies, Skorchas and Trakks are looking good because you almost get as much suvivability as kommandoz or storm boyz per point, so you might be able to substitute them of either of those, especially when you are fielding artillery. Sadly I don't own any of them.
SemperMortis wrote: Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?
I think the only real difference is that if you used big choppas you may spare some points elsewhere and replace with PKs instead. Maybe 1-2 lone skorcha buggies if you play with vehicles/walkers. Other than that I don't see many changes in the orks style. I'd really like to take meganobz, I used to field the bullyboyz formation in 7th edition, but the transports are still overpriced, I don't know, I'd still take tankbustas and boyz if I go with trukks/BWs.
One change I'll make for sure is to give the biker big mek with KFF a killsaw, mine is already modeled with that weapon. With the spared points of the warboss' power klaw basically.
Just with the point decreases CA is no game changer for us orks but still, i'll take the 150 + points extra i get in my list.
Also the point increases for the other factions benefit us.
For example a list with Girlyman, Celestine, Razorbacks and constripts with commissar lost some rules plus are 150+ points more expensive.
In total thats over 300 points difference for me, which is nice.
Furthermore we'll get additional (and hopefully better) strategems.
Also a warlord trait and relict. Sure they are not overpowered but give another (small) bonus - for free.
Let's see what else we'll get.
Also now its much easier to field a good brigade detachment in 1850 points which also helps a lot.
Especially with new strategems coming otherwise just reroll all the time and use the core book strategems.
Only downside is the gorkanaut and my shooty stuff like flash gitz still being a bit expensive but hey, now i have almost 200 points extra to compensate in a 2000 points game.
That killtank point nerf on the other hand really hit me, i was just getting started scratching one.
Well, maybe just make it a battlewaggon with optional lifta or supa cannon, which both got cheaper as well.
Overall i'm happy, small improvement is better than none.
My poor deffkoptas though, I’d just finished painting 6 of them when 8th came out. Was hoping this would be the fix they needed
Try proxying them as chinork warkoptas. They went from 155 points to 74 points for reason that are not entirely clear.
Essentially the warkopta functions as two deffkoptas glued together, but with added bonus of a couple of deff-guns and a 10-ork transport capacity. Use it before they realise what they did and nerf it to kingdom come.
I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?
Da jump is quite risky for a unit that is not made by cheap bodies because there are high chances to fail the charge and getting deleted the subsequent turn, not to mention that many armies have a lot of screeners making the charge against an appropriate target impossible anyway.
3 meganobz that arrive with da jump are not going to kill anything, 5-6 are still very expensive and if you fail the charge the opponent is going to delete or cripple them quite easily. But even if they make the charge, 5 pair of killsaws could strip 8-10 wounds on average on T8 models that don't have invulns. Not that great result for 250-300 points plus the weirdboy.
The presence of screeners however is the biggest motive I wouldn't rely on teleporting meganobz in TAC lists. Occasionally this combo can certainly work though.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?
Manz require very specific lists to start working. They don't fit too well with a greentie cause they're basically mini-vehicles. And if you start running them alongside a greentide, you're giving your opponent juicy targets for all the anti-tank they've brought. So, they're better off with lists that allready have other tough targets.
Although it can be quite benefical to throw a unit of 5+ manz behind enemy lines. Well, if you can avoid anti-tank.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?
Manz require very specific lists to start working. They don't fit too well with a greentie cause they're basically mini-vehicles. And if you start running them alongside a greentide, you're giving your opponent juicy targets for all the anti-tank they've brought. So, they're better off with lists that allready have other tough targets.
Although it can be quite benefical to throw a unit of 5+ manz behind enemy lines. Well, if you can avoid anti-tank.
I think the change to fists has also limited Manz quite a bit. Fists used to demolish just about anything they touched. Now they are significantly less effective against armored targets due to the negative to hit, D3 wounds and the number of wounds that it takes to kill a tank. They are also less effective against everything else due to negs to hit. So atm they are a mediocre solution to heavy targets while still requiring delivery system. Terminators are still pretty effective against infantry with stormbolters along with being able to innately DS.
I still maintain that Manz require a damage increase in fists or saws inorder to become competitively relevant again.
Just got a quick peek at the CA at my local store, I have a clarification on the 2nd ork stratagem:
Title "MOB UP"
1 CP - At the end of your movement phase select 2 infantry units at least 2" away from each other, that share A data-sheet. (examples of copies of units given) One must have 10 or more models and the other must have 10 or less. (so 10 can join 10) Treat those 2 units as the same unit for the rest of the game.
So good not great like it could have been, but would have had to have been FAQ' d to make sense the other way.
- As for it's use, i like the idea of 20 mega nobs jumping deep turn 1; or maybe 15 nobs (with the salt and pepper) and 15 ammo runts; or heck even 40 boyz would have a better chance of not being blown to bits and you got another rokit-boy and nob in there too; 2 or 3 units like that with 4-5 odd boyz - KMK's in back.... yeh.. yeh... i think i can make this work....
SemperMortis wrote: Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?
It isn't going to change the list I run right now very much. If I had more Buggy models I'd probably try to run them as Skorchas to make a Brigade detachment, but I only have the one.
It does mess with the Kill Tank list I was working on, but I haven't actually played with that yet, and to be honest the chances of it actually being assembled and painted before our actual Codex drops are basically zero so I'm not going to get worked up over it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KillerOfMany wrote: Just got a quick peek at the CA at my local store, I have a clarification on the 2nd ork stratagem:
Title "MOB UP"
1 CP - At the end of your movement phase select 2 infantry units at least 2" away from each other, that share A data-sheet. (examples of copies of units given) One must have 10 or more models and the other must have 10 or less. (so 10 can join 10) Treat those 2 units as the same unit for the rest of the game.
So good not great like it could have been, but would have had to have been FAQ' d to make sense the other way.
- As for it's use, i like the idea of 20 mega nobs jumping deep turn 1; or maybe 15 nobs (with the salt and pepper) and 15 ammo runts; or heck even 40 boyz would have a better chance of not being blown to bits and you got another rokit-boy and nob in there too; 2 or 3 units like that with 4-5 odd boyz - KMK's in back.... yeh.. yeh... i think i can make this work....
Seems like a solid stratagem.
Combining 15 Tank Bustas units to get 22 Rokkits and 8 Bomb Squigs, then Da Jumping them and giving them the Dakka Dakka Dakka! stratagem could be an impressive suicide attack. They would probably get wiped off the board the next turn though and that would be a lot of points gone.
I was wondering about hiding some MANz and a Weird Boy out of LoS and using Da Jump on them later in the game when lots of units are tied up and more holes have opened up. The Wierdboy would be using Da Jump on other units the first couple turns of the game. They'd still be pretty vulnerable to Basilisks, Manticores and other such units. They could be placed in a transport and disembark when it's time to Jump them, but that's starting to get pretty expensive. It seems like most of the time when I'm trying to figure out how to make MANz work it goes along the lines of "Well, if I just do X and X and X then they'll be able to get into combat and actually do some damage!" but X+X+X+MANz = crazy expensive.
The point changes will give me some more breathing room in my infantry list since it's heavy with both PKs and BCs, as well as my mech list which uses a morkanaut. Won't really make me change my unit makeup though.
We shouldn’t forget that these are only point reductions, but stats, weapon profiles and unit rules might also change in the codex (or even in this book as leaks only showed points tables).
Relics might also change the game a bit (eg. who knows what the the lucky stikk will do now, maybe an army wide ‘get your command points back’ type mechanic like IG has, that would be cool). But any other command point related benefit could work for an army heavily relying on finding some luck in high amount of dice rolled. We’ll see, I am still full of hope.
Da Finkin' Cap would be a good candidate for getting back command points.
It wasn't very good, but my favorite Relic from 7th was Da Shiniest Shoota. It was really entertaining and it was cheap.
I need to get my Warcopta out of storage and get it assembled. Are the guns that come with it supposed to be Deffguns or Rattler Kannons? I also picked up a busted Ravager that was missing some bits a while back and I think it could be a good candidate for another Warcopta.
grnsknz wrote: We shouldn’t forget that these are only point reductions, but stats, weapon profiles and unit rules might also change in the codex (or even in this book as leaks only showed points tables).
There videos of people flipping through the entire book. No further rule changes to non-codex armies except for objective secured.
Also, since Tau and Necrons are missing because of new codices soon, Orks are not due before March 2018.
I think the best use of the "merge blobs" stratagem is for transport lists. It can help keep the nob alive, and maybe even get to that green tide bonus. Especially if a large mob is jumped in with the transports.
I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
Nazrak wrote: I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
One group has to be above 10 the other below it. They also have to share a data sheet apparently so the most you are going to get is a mob of 40 boyz, this tactic is crap as well. Orkz got shafted again.
Well, you could jump 20 nobz + 20 gretchin into your opponent's face and have them shoot 20 rokkits with re-rolls for just 700 points (weirdboy not included)
Mob up stratemeg had a potential to be really good. But it's just fluffy and very situational now with all thoselimits. Just a way to avoid easy cp from frontline squads or an extra chance to get +1 attack for an extra turn for smaller squads. Will be certainly more viable for mech lists. If mech lists would be viable at all - only codex can tell.
Azhday wrote: I wonder if you can Mob Up two units if one or two of those are already in combat and if yes are there potential problems that can arise from it?
You're getting the problem of loosing the striking initiative and all the potential bonuses that come from charging like +1 attack from Ghaz.
Jidmah wrote: Well, you could jump 20 nobz + 20 gretchin into your opponent's face and have them shoot 20 rokkits with re-rolls for just 700 points (weirdboy not included)
I honestly don't know if you are being serious with this or not but it would still be illegal from what i have seen. the leak i saw said the units had to share a datasheet so Nobz with Nobz and grots with grots, no mixing and matching.
Jidmah wrote: Well, you could jump 20 nobz + 20 gretchin into your opponent's face and have them shoot 20 rokkits with re-rolls for just 700 points (weirdboy not included)
I honestly don't know if you are being serious with this or not but it would still be illegal from what i have seen. the leak i saw said the units had to share a datasheet so Nobz with Nobz and grots with grots, no mixing and matching.
You can mob up nobz + runts with another unit of nobz + runts. But the smaller unit needs to be nine models or less. Any unit that can take ammo runts is a prime candidate for the stratagem.
Your kommando list might also benefit ever so slightly from it. Using it at the right time could conserve a nob and two burnas, by merging them into an adjacent mob. Not bad. Not good either, but it is what it is.
Nazrak wrote: I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
One group has to be above 10 the other below it. They also have to share a data sheet apparently so the most you are going to get is a mob of 40 boyz, this tactic is crap as well. Orkz got shafted again.
Ah, I overlooked that. Still, 40 boyz is nowt to be sneezed at. But please don’t let that get in the way of your unrelenting negativity.
Jidmah wrote: Well, you could jump 20 nobz + 20 gretchin into your opponent's face and have them shoot 20 rokkits with re-rolls for just 700 points (weirdboy not included)
I honestly don't know if you are being serious with this or not but it would still be illegal from what i have seen. the leak i saw said the units had to share a datasheet so Nobz with Nobz and grots with grots, no mixing and matching.
Gretchin being ammo runts, of course. The second unit needs to be 10 or less, so you could only go up to 10+5 for a total of 45 jumped wounds.
I'm not really serious about it since nobz are still too easy to kill and too expensive to put them right into your opponent's face. Still hilarious when not playing competitive games. When they are the only unit in range, nothing prevents your opponent from just using basic weapons like bolters to clear out the gretchin and then start shooting the nobz with plasma, autocannons or worse.
Azhday wrote: I wonder if you can Mob Up two units if one or two of those are already in combat and if yes are there potential problems that can arise from it?
You're getting the problem of loosing the striking initiative and all the potential bonuses that come from charging like +1 attack from Ghaz.
On the flip side sometimes you don't want to charge as it can leave your locked in squad vunerable and can fail. I think there are tricks to be pulled with this strategem where you put a unit within 3" of a new enemy unit, combine with an engaged squad and then like in to the new unit to attack.
Also of note would be having multiple nobs in your unit of 40 Boyz. Or combining kommando units into a larger blob with multiple but as and Nobz
Nazrak wrote: I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
One group has to be above 10 the other below it. They also have to share a data sheet apparently so the most you are going to get is a mob of 40 boyz, this tactic is crap as well. Orkz got shafted again.
Ah, I overlooked that. Still, 40 boyz is nowt to be sneezed at. But please don’t let that get in the way of your unrelenting negativity.
realism isn't negativity nazrak lol I have been right pretty much across the board with my predictions so far since 7th dropped. And I predict this CA will help but not nearly enough to make most units even playable. Morkanauts got cheaper, their weapons got cheaper and i am still not going to take mine off the shelf, i just don't see it being competitive, same for my Killakanz and dreadz.
Additionally, I don't know if it's been asked but, is there any restriction to using it again next turn? Say the unit of 40 boys isn't the target of any attacks. Can they combine with another 10 man squad to bring them to 50?
mhalko1 wrote: Additionally, I don't know if it's been asked but, is there any restriction to using it again next turn? Say the unit of 40 boys isn't the target of any attacks. Can they combine with another 10 man squad to bring them to 50?
from what I saw there was no other restrictions beyond the ones that made it a useless tactic in the first place.
Nazrak wrote: I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
One group has to be above 10 the other below it. They also have to share a data sheet apparently so the most you are going to get is a mob of 40 boyz, this tactic is crap as well. Orkz got shafted again.
No, this is false.
Mob up is "10 or more" and "10 or less".
Nazrak wrote: I like the sound of the Mob Up strategy. Mobs of, say, 50 boyz or grotz are going to be a right nuisance to deal with, and will be able to take more damage before losing their bonuses.
One group has to be above 10 the other below it. They also have to share a data sheet apparently so the most you are going to get is a mob of 40 boyz, this tactic is crap as well. Orkz got shafted again.
No, this is false.
Mob up is "10 or more" and "10 or less".
Wow, the killchoppa really looks useless. It's just a big choppa with better AP but D3 damage instead of flat 2 or D3 mortal wounds on 6s. Considering that the standard big choppa is 7 points I'll bet pks will always be better than the killchoppa.
Do you think it would be worthwhile to combine 6 Kannons (or any big/mek gunz into one unit), instead of running them separate, to use this strat?
A few extra hits on shoota boyz may not be worthwhile, but an extra kannon shot wouldn't be too bad for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again I guess you could just use a command re-roll on one of the missed shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again again, if you have 6 KMK together and you roll well for shots you could be talking about a few extra shots for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the KMK
If you took 6, at an average of 3.5 shots each, for a total of 21 shots you would end up with 2.6 extra hits on average for 1 CP.
Which changes almost nothing and still makes it a terrible use of a CP in most circumstances
It might not change much, but however every little piece of cookie crumble we can get our hands on is atleast something, considering the bad spot we're in.
Do you think it would be worthwhile to combine 6 Kannons (or any big/mek gunz into one unit), instead of running them separate, to use this strat?
A few extra hits on shoota boyz may not be worthwhile, but an extra kannon shot wouldn't be too bad for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again I guess you could just use a command re-roll on one of the missed shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again again, if you have 6 KMK together and you roll well for shots you could be talking about a few extra shots for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the KMK
If you took 6, at an average of 3.5 shots each, for a total of 21 shots you would end up with 2.6 extra hits on average for 1 CP.
I don't think that would work as the kannons are all considered seperate units. You still can't combine them because there is not more than 10 models to start with.
Do you think it would be worthwhile to combine 6 Kannons (or any big/mek gunz into one unit), instead of running them separate, to use this strat?
A few extra hits on shoota boyz may not be worthwhile, but an extra kannon shot wouldn't be too bad for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again I guess you could just use a command re-roll on one of the missed shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again again, if you have 6 KMK together and you roll well for shots you could be talking about a few extra shots for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the KMK
If you took 6, at an average of 3.5 shots each, for a total of 21 shots you would end up with 2.6 extra hits on average for 1 CP.
I don't think that would work as the kannons are all considered seperate units. You still can't combine them because there is not more than 10 models to start with.
Well the dakka stratagem doesn't work with artillery anyway so the idea is pretty much DOA. Infantry and bikes only.
Do you think it would be worthwhile to combine 6 Kannons (or any big/mek gunz into one unit), instead of running them separate, to use this strat?
A few extra hits on shoota boyz may not be worthwhile, but an extra kannon shot wouldn't be too bad for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again I guess you could just use a command re-roll on one of the missed shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again again, if you have 6 KMK together and you roll well for shots you could be talking about a few extra shots for 1 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the KMK
If you took 6, at an average of 3.5 shots each, for a total of 21 shots you would end up with 2.6 extra hits on average for 1 CP.
I don't think that would work as the kannons are all considered seperate units. You still can't combine them because there is not more than 10 models to start with.
Well the dakka stratagem doesn't work with artillery anyway so the idea is pretty much DOA. Infantry and bikes only.
Blackie wrote: Wow, the killchoppa really looks useless. It's just a big choppa with better AP but D3 damage instead of flat 2 or D3 mortal wounds on 6s. Considering that the standard big choppa is 7 points I'll bet pks will always be better than the killchoppa.
On a warboss you can expect it to do more damage than a PK against all targets. Keep in mind that it still hits on 2+ and d3 mortal wounds can kill up to 3 additional models against infantry per 6 rolled.
Blackie wrote: Wow, the killchoppa really looks useless. It's just a big choppa with better AP but D3 damage instead of flat 2 or D3 mortal wounds on 6s. Considering that the standard big choppa is 7 points I'll bet pks will always be better than the killchoppa.
On a warboss you can expect it to do more damage than a PK against all targets. Keep in mind that it still hits on 2+ and d3 mortal wounds can kill up to 3 additional models against infantry per 6 rolled.
Of course, but what's its points cost? A standard big choppa is 7 points and the killchoppa is way better. But the pk is now only 13 and still better against vehicles than the killchoppa. The relic could even cost 25-30 points. Or maybe it can be taken as a free upgrade just replacing the big choppa?
I'm looking to get back into 40k again, mostly because my best mate is playing again and loving it, going to tornements and everything. FYI he is playing a girlyman gunline list and I'm sure playing against him will be like trying to eat an entire wheel of cheese. However I'm still up for it.
Now I've more or less settled on Orks as my army of choice, mainly because I just think they look awesome and I like the idea of tearing the buttholes out of smurfs in close combat.
I'm almost read every single page of this thread and have a pretty good grasp on units, point values etc. I was hoping you could help me with a few questions though:
1. I'm playing on building my army up a 30 unit of boyz at a time, possible getting 60 and then some storm boyz for starters. What is the vedict on mixing in some shooter boyz? I'm thinking 10 from each squad to future proof me if they make them good when the codex drops?
2. I love the look of Nobz, so I will be getting some, even if I just run them as boss nobs in boy squads. Given the changes in points, BC still the way to go? Comi rockets + runt any good?
3. Ammo runts - I notice you only get 1 per Nob box - do you guys just use normal grots and proxy them? Where I can get more runts?
4. ANy advice on buying the army? I can't see a way around having to buy loads of Boyz.
5. I like the idea of either Kannons or KMKs to provide some S8 half decent shooting - what's working for people?
Thank you very much, I've enjoyed the thread (although a bit depressing at time I must admit!)
First relic free, second relic costs 1 cp and third for 3cp if I recall. Well for those with codex , I think. Or is it just some armies....
I've normally always went with a pk for my main boss but if I add a second boss for whatever reason he usually has a bc or in this case it would be that killchoppa
Additional thoughts:
- The only thing I would remove for another game would be the 6 wrecking balls + the 2 KMS, that gives me another 32 pts to work with.
So my list just went down 96 pts! Add to that the 32 pts gained from removing the wrecking balls and the kustom mega-sluggas, and 42 pts gained from removing the optional KMK (might add more), this gives me 170 pts to improve this list! A 7th trukk (167 pts)? 4 more KMK (168 pts)? BCs or PKs for biker nobz and kommando nobz (42 or 78 pts)? Or for the bikermeks? Skorcha buggies instead of biker squads?
I'm looking to get back into 40k again, mostly because my best mate is playing again and loving it, going to tornements and everything. FYI he is playing a girlyman gunline list and I'm sure playing against him will be like trying to eat an entire wheel of cheese. However I'm still up for it.
Now I've more or less settled on Orks as my army of choice, mainly because I just think they look awesome and I like the idea of tearing the buttholes out of smurfs in close combat.
I'm almost read every single page of this thread and have a pretty good grasp on units, point values etc. I was hoping you could help me with a few questions though:
1. I'm playing on building my army up a 30 unit of boyz at a time, possible getting 60 and then some storm boyz for starters. What is the vedict on mixing in some shooter boyz? I'm thinking 10 from each squad to future proof me if they make them good when the codex drops?
2. I love the look of Nobz, so I will be getting some, even if I just run them as boss nobs in boy squads. Given the changes in points, BC still the way to go? Comi rockets + runt any good?
3. Ammo runts - I notice you only get 1 per Nob box - do you guys just use normal grots and proxy them? Where I can get more runts?
4. ANy advice on buying the army? I can't see a way around having to buy loads of Boyz.
5. I like the idea of either Kannons or KMKs to provide some S8 half decent shooting - what's working for people?
Thank you very much, I've enjoyed the thread (although a bit depressing at time I must admit!)
Hi, welcome to the hobby and I'm glad you chose orks! I love them to bits for their aesthetics aND crazy fluff. In time the rules will do its rounds and favor greenskins again. Actually it wouldn't tale too much now and I hope the upcoming codex will do just that.
1. My models of Boyz has always consisted of 2/3 shoota Boyz and 1/3 choppa Boyz wearing ard armour (cuurently missing this edition so they are normal Boyz with shoulder pads). The rest of my choppa boy type units come in the form of stormboyz and kommandos both of which are great this edition. I've heard of shootas being mixed into choppa Boyz thanks to 8th edition rules. I don't foot slog my choppy Boyz, I teleport them and I want all the melee attacks I can get for them. The shoota Boyz can footslog/hold objectives/receive the charge from deep strikers with their over watch.
2. I love the look of regular Nobz too, especially the big choppas. My Nobz run with big choppas. I consider the kombi skorcha more useful then the rokkits but very expensive this edition. I got a couple modeled with the skorchas and may include them for the two , rarely I might say they all have bc and skorcha for casual kicks.
3. You'll pick up all kinds if grots as your collection grows as they show up in a bunch of kits from both gw and fw. And yes it's fine grabbing grots from their own standalone kit(s).
4. Horde armies are expensive. Orks compete with IG and Nids for the sheer amount of models that can be put on the table. To save money there is usually plenty others are selling. Strip the paint and repaint them. I've spent more money on other hobbies that includes hunting and golfing for this game to come close so I buy from the company (when in Stock rofl).
5. Both Kannons and KMK are good choices depending whom you are fighting. I use both. I'll also use Traktor kannonz depending on whom I am up against but rarely makes the list if I'm going in blind.
ProwlerPC wrote: First relic free, second relic costs 1 cp and third for 3cp if I recall. Well for those with codex , I think. Or is it just some armies....
I've normally always went with a pk for my main boss but if I add a second boss for whatever reason he usually has a bc or in this case it would be that killchoppa
If the killchoppa is free it may become the new lucky stikk, the 8th edition orks' auto-take.
1. I'm playing on building my army up a 30 unit of boyz at a time, possible getting 60 and then some storm boyz for starters. What is the vedict on mixing in some shooter boyz? I'm thinking 10 from each squad to future proof me if they make them good when the codex drops?
Mixing shootas and sluggas works but it doesn't really change that much. The majority of players that mix the boyz weapons do that because they don't have enough models with the desired setup. It's a fine choice though.
2. I love the look of Nobz, so I will be getting some, even if I just run them as boss nobs in boy squads. Given the changes in points, BC still the way to go? Comi rockets + runt any good?
Now power klaws and killsaws are way cheaper than before. I sometimes run the unit of nobz with big choppas, I think I'll continue to use it while I'll try to give pks to the nobz that lead boyz squads. Kombi weapons are still too expensive, the kombi skorcha is good but 17 points are a tax IMHO.
4. ANy advice on buying the army? I can't see a way around having to buy loads of Boyz.
It really depends on the style you want to use. If you're starting now I'd recommend to buy the units/models you like the most since the green tide may even survive a few months before the codex nerfes it. This edition is quite "shifting".
5. I like the idea of either Kannons or KMKs to provide some S8 half decent shooting - what's working for people?
They're both good. Kannonz match better with green tides since they're less vulnerable to anti tank points per points. The KMKs can cause a few more damage and work decently if you bring several T5+ models. If you want just a couple of pieces of artillery use KMKs, kannonz become really good when spammed in high numbers.
I'm looking to get back into 40k again, mostly because my best mate is playing again and loving it, going to tornements and everything. FYI he is playing a girlyman gunline list and I'm sure playing against him will be like trying to eat an entire wheel of cheese. However I'm still up for it.
Now I've more or less settled on Orks as my army of choice, mainly because I just think they look awesome and I like the idea of tearing the buttholes out of smurfs in close combat.
I'm almost read every single page of this thread and have a pretty good grasp on units, point values etc. I was hoping you could help me with a few questions though:
1. I'm playing on building my army up a 30 unit of boyz at a time, possible getting 60 and then some storm boyz for starters. What is the vedict on mixing in some shooter boyz? I'm thinking 10 from each squad to future proof me if they make them good when the codex drops?
2. I love the look of Nobz, so I will be getting some, even if I just run them as boss nobs in boy squads. Given the changes in points, BC still the way to go? Comi rockets + runt any good?
3. Ammo runts - I notice you only get 1 per Nob box - do you guys just use normal grots and proxy them? Where I can get more runts?
4. ANy advice on buying the army? I can't see a way around having to buy loads of Boyz.
5. I like the idea of either Kannons or KMKs to provide some S8 half decent shooting - what's working for people?
Thank you very much, I've enjoyed the thread (although a bit depressing at time I must admit!)
I agree with most everything that has been said in reply to your questions. Run what you want and what looks cool, the meta is shifting pretty fast so your purchases might suck soon, but boyz seem a safe bet. I bought most of my Boyz second hand, stripped them and resprayed etc. Worth spending the time to just buy some other dudes junk and crisp them up if you're heading for green tide. I wouldn't be fussy, girlyman gunline will need your best foot forward, so you're aiming for 100+ models.
KMK kits come with 1 spare grot, stormboyz kit has a grot it in too. Look toward other game-sets for runts too if you're willing to pay, I personally like Kromlek goblins.
And I'm probably the biggest KMK proponent in these forums, but they are legendary and I will never field less than 6. Now considering they are only 42 points a gun, I think they are a must take for all Orkz now, perhaps as competitively priced as boyz. Food for thought.
edit: sooo yeah now with KMK's you sort of get a vehicle that for 252 points you get 6D6 str8 -3 D3 dmg shots, that is on 36 wounds with T5 5+sv. This magic vehicle probably has an effective 40+ wounds, as you can not roll over the damage at each 6 wound interval (even if they are mortal wounds). It's only degrading profile is you lose D6 shots per 6 wounds. And for a bonus, you can declare each D6 shot one a time for maximum efficiency. In addition to this, this magic vehicle gets 30 screening models with the character rule, and has a special rule (deployment coherency = 3") that guarantees you to never receive deepstrikes behind you if you want.
I'd not call kmk legendary. But they're pretty legit. The damage is ok but they tend to self-destruct more or less reliably. More when the enemy has -1 to-hits.
koooaei wrote: I'd not call kmk legendary. But they're pretty legit. The damage is ok but they tend to self-destruct more or less reliably. More when the enemy has -1 to-hits.
Yes, but nine times out of ten the game is decided by turn three, and they will at most suffer a single wound of damage per shooting phase. At 42 points I would say that they are pretty good. That's seven points per wound not counting the free screen.
The worst thing about them is the real price. You will have sell a kidney or a lung to afford the official kit in large numbers.
Real price is not an issue if you kitbash KMK from WW2 gunz. There are a lot of options with close to identical sizes. And than just scrap on some orkifications and spare wires and you're good to go.
I can see why GW wants us to pay 17 points for a Kombi-Skorcha, consider IG and SM pay 17 points for a Heavy Flamer. It's just tricky because while a Skorcha is good I think I'd rather have three more Boyz.
It would be funny but terrible if the Bad Moons special stratagem was to take like six relics.
Here's a guy kitbashing several mek guns from a single Mek Gunz kit and a Trukk. I think he does a good job, but if a person weren't limited to just the Trukk kit and were willing to use some plasticard and other bits they could probably do even better.
The Battle Wagon kit and the Wazbom Blastajet kit are good sources of Kannons, Zzap Gunz and KMK ends. Of course, that's only if you want wagons or jets to start with otherwise the bits sites are probably cheaper.
Can I recommend chopping up a Trukk kit? You can get 3 Gunz that way with a pile of gubbins left over, and getting a few pieces of junk to finish the job off is pretty straightforward. I got a bag of 30 spark plugs from my mechanic for free; he was just throwing them away.
Decided to do up a Deffwing style list for a casual game tomorrow, trying to make the most use of the points changes in CA.
Big Mek on Warbike w/KFF and PK
5 MANZ, 2 with twin killsaws, 1 with Kombi-Skorcha
5 MANZ, 2 with twin killsaws, 1 with Kombi-Skorcha
5 MANZ, 2 with twin killsaws, 1 with Kombi-Skorcha
Nob w/WAAAAGH Banner
12 Tankbustas
3 Skorcha Buggies
6 Kans, 4 Rokkits, 2 Big Shootas
Trukk, Wrecking Ball, Rokkit
Trukk, Wrecking Ball, Rokkit
Trukk, Wrecking Ball, Rokkit
Trukk, Wrecking Ball, Rokkit
It's limited somewhat by the models I have access to but the idea is fairly straightforward; saturate enemy with armoured targets and get in his face asap. Low number of drops means I should get first turn (unless we're playing with the new CA missions and even then I'll get +1 to the roll). Big Mek follows with the Trukks to up their survivability a bit and once they've dropped their cargo off he can head back to shepherd the Kans if necessary. Kans I'm using as the same catagory as the MANZ and the Banner Nob compliments both the Kans and Manz very well. The Skorchas are a bit of a wild-card; they're fragile, but because there's so many other targets they hopefully won't face much firepower and could get some shots in. They'll start the game on the field to saturate the available targets.
No idea if it will work but it should be fun! Been itching to try out my Kromlech MANZ models too and this should be a perfect opportunity.
@GlaneMade: I love to employ MANz, Big stompy botz and killy tanks in my ork hordes. Even got 10 scratch built MANz. Would play nothing else if i could
In my opionion there are three problems with this list though.
1) Both MANz and Kans have low leadership and love them to have some big mobs around.
2) While you enforce armour saturation to the enemy you handicap yourself in a similar manner.
You have nothing to shove into thunderhammer terminators and the like.
3) You have no warboss and thus can't advance and charge in the same turn.
What might benefit the list is to replace Kans and/or Tankbustas and/or Skorchas with
- 30 strong Boys Mobz
- 20 strong Boys Mobz in BattleWagon
- 20 strong Storm Boys Mobz
If you play MANz never drop the WAAAGH Banner though!
With the new points meganobz should be run with killsaws. At 63 points they were too expensive but at 48 they now be viable. The kustom shoota is not going to kill anyone so spending 6 more points to make the meganobz more killy in close combat looks like a bargain. If only they had a cheap transport to carry them.
Single skorcha buggies or units of two buggies with big shootas may replace min units of warbikes. I'm looking forward to try them in my mechanized lists.
I agree with loldar about the banner. With that many pks and killsaws it should be almost mandatory. 5 man squads of meganobz may suffer from LD but what about 5 units of 3? Same bodies, no need to bring other vehicles. I'd also cut the trukks' upgrades for some mek gunz and give the big mek a killsaw instead of a pk.
Can someone please spare a minute and explain the 'tactica' behind Mek Gunz with KMK's? How do you set them up and how do you operate / move them afterwards? Thank you.
Blackie wrote: Wow, the killchoppa really looks useless. It's just a big choppa with better AP but D3 damage instead of flat 2 or D3 mortal wounds on 6s. Considering that the standard big choppa is 7 points I'll bet pks will always be better than the killchoppa.
On a warboss you can expect it to do more damage than a PK against all targets. Keep in mind that it still hits on 2+ and d3 mortal wounds can kill up to 3 additional models against infantry per 6 rolled.
Of course, but what's its points cost? A standard big choppa is 7 points and the killchoppa is way better. But the pk is now only 13 and still better against vehicles than the killchoppa. The relic could even cost 25-30 points. Or maybe it can be taken as a free upgrade just replacing the big choppa?
Relics are always free if you have the weapon to trade.
Warboss with PK against:
- T7 3+ 1.48 wounds dealing d3 damage each
- T8 3+ 1.48 wounds dealing d3 damage each
with +1S warlord trait
- T7 3+ 1.85 wounds dealing d3 damage each
- T8 3+ 1.48 wounds dealing d3 damage each
with +1A warlord trait
- T7 3+ 1.85 wounds dealing d3 damage each
- T8 3+ 1.85 wounds dealing d3 damage each
Warboss with Relic against
- T7 3+ 1.11 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .55 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 1.66 times d3 damage done
- T8 3+ 0.74 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .55 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 1.39 times d3 damage done
with +1S warlord trait
- T7 3+ 1.11 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .55 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 1.66 times d3 damage done
- T8 3+ 1.11 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .55 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 1.66 times d3 damage done
with +1A warlord trait
- T7 3+ 1.38 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .69 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 2.07 times d3 damage done
- T8 3+ 0.93 wounds dealing d3 damage each plus .69 times d3 mortal wounds for a total of 1.62 times d3 damage done
Whenever you have invulnerable saves, infantry with one wound or 5+ saves, the relic vastly outperforms the PK. For example, if you roll two sixes against a marine squad you will cause three more casualties than you would normally have. The PK is only ever better against T8 vehicles, and not by a lot.
So you basically always want a Killchoppa with +1A on your warboss, and it's 6 points less than a powerklaw.
One mob has to be ten or more and the other ten or less.
The mobs have to be infantry units.
They both must share same data sheet, so the same unit.
So far my thoughts on this would be in the late game. Joining surviving truk Boyz from the flank to the foot slogging mob that just got up the table. Or joining athe survivors of a hard hit mob to a fresh one.
Kommando units might see the odd use with this too.
So you basically always want a Killchoppa with +1A on your warboss, and it's 5 points less than a big choppa.
Why 5 points? The big choppa is 7. Do I have to consider the cost of the warboss plus the free relic or the warboss plus the big choppa that can be switched with the relic for free? I don't get where that 5 points less than a big choppa comes from. Shouldn't it be 7 points cheaper?
With 40k being kinda lame for Orkz right now I hadn't been playing too many games. My buddy was in town for the holidays and wanted to play a game, so for old times sake we decided to put together a 2k game. I'll have to admit, it took the wind out of my sails to know this was just before we get some cost reductions on the 2nd, so I decided to just throw something together, see how it does. So I look around the room, and start setting my all my Lootas on my army table, then all my tankbustas. I count them up and decide on 14x5x5 Lootas, and 10x10x10 Tankbustas, I pull out three trukks for the rokkitboyz and start adding up my list. So I need an HQ, and it occurs to me that the SAG gets a buff in a couple days, so I decide I'll dust that off and get used to seeing him. I start adding up what I have, and what I need for 2k, and I decide that I'll shove 6 Meganobz, a Deff Rolla Wagon, and bring Ghazzy just because I know powerklaws/saws gonna get cheaper too and Ghazzy never disappoints. I set it all out, and look at it, and I do a small prayer to Gork.
Sure enough, my buddy has brought a BobbyG list, and it doesn't bother me, I just bore of the rerolls. It's just one of the things I don't have and I just have to put up with until orkz get a dex. But it's 3 Assbacks with 3 Missile Dev squads inside, and Chronus (would it be Chronus?) in a Quad Las Pred. He's decided to make it a bit interesting by adding a Black Templar Land Raider Crusader with an Emperor's Champion, Helbrecht, and 3x5 choppy scout gitz inside. It felt nice to know he had something I could bump into melee combat with, even if he would be rerolling all that junk to (I think? Didn't matter anyways.).
So we roll for game type, we got Eternal Conflict, The Scouring. We roll for objectives and set those out, pretty standard and nearly symmetrical, one objective in each corner in a small ruin, with two semi central off set objectives at center mostly in no cover. Then I got to pick the deployment type. So I picked the one that deployed horizontally but was 9 inches from center at middle and 6 inches from deployment edge at the sides. During deployment, my buddy deployed his Land Raider first, I started counting drops and I realized if I stuff my Big Mek w/SAG in a trukk and one Loota Squad in the Battlewagon with Ghaz that I can get the +1 advantage on first turn roll, and so I ran with just that idea. Not planning on me getting first turn, my buddy had placed his Land Raider too far forward and his Ultramarine Devs were inside the Assbacks, in a corner at an objective. I placed everything forward in the middle and the Lootas in LOS of the objective he planned to camp, 1000% banking on getting this first turn roll, expecting his firepower to be diminished for the turn it takes to get out of his Razorbacks and expecting to murder the Quad Las Pred and throw everything else at the Land Raider. Sure enough I get turn one, and the game began as planned.
Turn one the Meganobz and Ghaz jump out of the Battlewagon and move/advance to be just seven inches from Land Raider, with the Lootas jumping to my central objective, the Battlewagon advancing alongside Ghaz. The Big Mek hops into a ruin with objective, then the tankbusta trukkz all swarm in on the quad las pred/assback parking lot with just enough range on the Land Raider to fire at it once the Quad Las Pred goes down. In maybe the biggest turn one round of shooting, Tankbustas and the SAG destroy the Quad Las Pred, and the Large Loota squad (3 shots) plus 2nd/3rd trukk of Tankbustas do all but 3 HP of damage to the Land Raider. For the first time ever, it felt like a shooting phase worth talkin about. The assault phase didn't go soo well though, my battlewagon soaked overwatch and failed the charge, which forced me to assault with my meganobz, eat overwatch, and fail the charge. Knowing that I would likely lose Ghaz early, I decided I had to try and take the Land Raider down (because I didn't want all the dakka to be fired at me next turn after eating two overwatches), so I went ahead and assaulted with Ghaz too, ate overwatch, made my charge, and kicked over the Land Raider. The Land Raider exploded, leaving Ghaz with just one wound left. It felt like an accomplished first turn, even though my assaulty assets were a bit disappointing.
In my opponents turn he moved his assaulty scouts right around Ghaz, opting not to overkill him when he knew I had a squad of meganobz to be worked on right behind him. He instead opted to have his Emperor's Champion (I think, the one with the black sword) fire his pistol at Ghaz and miss. His devs jumped out of the assbacks and took positions in the ruins in his deployment. After his shooting phase he had destroyed a trukk (which rolled a clutch ramshackle roll on a 6 Damage Missile that should have ended it, resulting in more shots being fired at the same trukk). He had also immediately killed all the Tankbustas that disembarked with a followup from one Assback (reroll this yadda yadda reroll that.. 11 Wounds!). He also put wounds on my meganobz before assaulting them. So, my buddy decides to go first with his Emperor's Champion, and my prayers to Mork (or maybe Gork?) cursed his five attacks with complete failure, even after rerolling misses and wounds I didn't even have to take a save. I decided to blow 2CP and get my meganob attacks in before the scouts got theirs. The scouts did a few wounds, and decided to bump into my Battlewagon, jumping in front of the deff rolla to delay it. Much to their disappointment the driver was paying no attention and accidentally drove right over them, killin the rest of that five man squad.
I don't usually get excited because I know things can go bad inside of one turn, and I've lost enough games this edition to know that crap could still happen. At the top of turn two I moved my remaining trukkz closer to the dev squads, attempting to pin them, Chronus(now on foot), and BobbyG to a corner. I also brought my Deff Rolla Wagon over, intent on driving into everything. In my shooting phase my SAG rolled sweet yet again, putting 3 Damage on an Assback, with my Tankbustas and a five man Loota squad following up big. Wounded another Dev with the spare Loota squad in the opposite corner from the conflict. Finally, my large Loota squad rolled three shots again, and wiped a fresh Dev Squad off the table. At the beginning of my assault phase, just before Ghaz got to swing first on the Emperor's Champion, my opponent told me that was game.
In hindsight, one could say that deployment for first turn may well have decided this game. His Land Raider being in assault range turn one was a miscalculation, and having his Devs inside the Assbacks diminished his firepower enough turn one to allow me effectively another great turn of shooting. The amount of Dakka put out by 24 Lootas, and 30 Tankbustas, racked up a little more then a third of his army in points turn one it's probably the most space marine stuff I have ever put in a graveyard turn one. My buddy told me he started thinking about concession when the ramshackle turned up big and almost threw his Emperor's Champion when it wiff'd on Ghazzy, which should have just been him collecting the Victory Point I essentially sacrificed to finish his Land Raider. We both kind of knew that even if he could deal with the tankbustas in trukkz that the Lootas and Big Mek were mostly on a solid three objectives. With my meganobz probably doing whatever they want after they finished up with his scouts. BobbyG would have likely spent the rest of the game kicking over two trukkz and probably also my battlewagon while my Lootas and Tankbustas shot the remaining two dev squads and assback if not also Bobby G.
Overall-
-Lootas did great, they work well in the game because my opponent has no negative hit modifiers or deep striking units. Range being an exception to the safety offered in spamming the same toughness, Lootas were free to fire from 48 inches away, which can seem untouchable with three rokkit trukkz, and a meganob wagon with deff rolla in the way.
-Tankbustas did great, rerolling shots pays off and turns over metal bawkses nicely. They turn the trukk into this glass cannon that did a lot of work turn one. Like the Lootas, I faced no negative hit modifiers, and the damage potential demands they are dealt with.
-Ghaz had a good day. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal but Ghaz never seems to fail me. I feel like I could throw him in a trukk alone and drive him straight to my enemy and he'd still find a way to payoff. Him living with one wound is almost as trolltastic as the trukk making a Ramshackle roll. 2+ Armor can shrug off lots of shots, and a 4+ invul is something that throws a wrench into even the best scripted plan. It's hard to tell my buddy that he can't depend on his Emperor's Champion finishing 1W Ghaz off cause he should. But there it was, the dice gods givith, and it was through Ghaz. Bring him in every list, do eet.
-Meganobz, failed a charge, eh oh well das life glad you tried your best. They proceeded to fight three scout squads and probably would have lived long enough to challenge an objective. They get cheaper in a couple days and I'm excited about that.. Probably just equates to another Loota or two, but still, noice.
-Big Mek SAG, this guy is getting cheaper in a couple days too, and I have to say, he was sort of a silent asset in this. With D6 shots and ork BS he has this way of being a like a Long Range Rokkit capable of the rare mortal wounds. Being a character with a range of 60 inches makes him safe from all but a deep strike really, and he sat in the back mostly guaranteeing I get the superior objective.
As fun as it was, turn one is just too important this edition. I feel like, if I don't get turn one then that the Quad Las Pred deletes a truck and then an assback deletes a tankbusta squad. Then maybe a dev squad destroys another trukk and an assback wipes another tankbusta squad. Then maybe the Land Raider moves up and lays into my Large Loota squad. It wouldn't be hard to imagine me losing two tankbusta trukkz and a large Loota squad turn one if the dice were just a bit different. I can only hope, in all the dice rolls in an average game, that it isn't intended for the first couple dice rolls to be soo important.
Cheers for the tips mate! I've tweaked up the list; I figure footslogging MANZ is less suicidal than it was in 7th and the multiple smaller units should help disperse the shooting against them a bit. I keep forgetting about Warbosses being required to advance and charge, and the Kan morale issues. We'll see how this one goes instead. One last thing is that I am constrained by the models I have; if any choices seem a little strange, it's probably because of that. I'd run the MANZ all as duel-killsaws if I had the models for them for example. I really want to keep the Skorchas just to try them out with a lower points cost too.
Dr.Duck wrote: Wheres this +1A trait coming from? The index?
The generic warlord traits that any army can take are on page 186 of the big rule book. We get three choices:
Legendary Fighter: +1 attack
Inspiring Leader: +1 Ld to friendly units within 6"
Tenacious Survivor: 6+ FNP
MrVulcanator wrote: GW said on the Warhammer Community Facebook page that there will be different rules for each Klan.
I was always pretty confident in this. Now we just have to hope they're actually good.
Yeah, I'm optimistic they will be good, but at the same time I worry that they'll give us rules that would be great for other armies but not for Orks.
Like, if Bad Moons don't suffer a penalty for advancing and shooting with assault weapons and moving and shooting with heavy weapons that would be pretty good. If Bad Moons get to re-roll 1s to hit in the shooting phase that would be pretty bad. They're both thematic, but one just doesn't work with BS 5+ models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Giving Blood Axes -1 to be hit at ranges over 12" would be really powerful, but I've noticed that neither the Guard or the Tyranids have a regiment or hive fleet with such an ability. I wonder if GW thinks that is too good of an ability to give horde armies? I really hope Blood Axes don't get stuck with Hive Fleet Jormungander's ability of always getting cover unless you charge or advance.
I'm not sure what else they could do though. Every unit getting a post-deployment scout move prior to the first battle round would be better than cover that depends on not advancing or charging, but it doesn't seem quite good enough on its own.
Ya I doubt we will get the -1 to hit and I kinda hope we dont. Whenever a faction gets that tactic, U rarely see anything but that get taken, unless theres another powerhouse tactic which I dont think weve seen outside of just taking Bobby.
Dr.Duck wrote: Ya I doubt we will get the -1 to hit and I kinda hope we dont. Whenever a faction gets that tactic, U rarely see anything but that get taken, unless theres another powerhouse tactic which I dont think weve seen outside of just taking Bobby.
It's true that -1 to hit armies are pretty powerful, and I agree that it's lame if we end up seeing mostly armies with those type of sub-faction abilities. If sneaky factions are usually getting that rule though I'm not sure that Orks should be left out. If those factions tend to be unbalanced long term GW might come back and extend the range on all of them to be 24" or something like that. What do you think would be a good Blood Axe ability other than -1 to hit?
I've been thinking, and there might be other reasons why GW didn't give IG and Tyranids a -1 to hit sub-faction. They didn't include Tanith in the IG Codex, so I'm not sure that they really had a "sneaky" regiment.
When it comes to Tyranids, they have -1 to hit bubbles built-in in the form of Venomthropes, so maybe GW decided that was good enough?
Warbikes used to give a 5+ cover save to other units due to the clouds of smoke and dust. Maybe they could give a rule along the lines of Venomthropes to ork bikes? Maybe something like ork bikes are at -1 to hit, if the unit has five or more models then friendly units within 6" are also at -1 to hit, and if there are 10 or more models the -1 to hit range extends to 9".
Quick little after-action report on my game. Went up against a good mate of mine who runs Black Legion, typically with Abbadon himself leading them. In the past he's bought a landraider but today he had a new toy: a Leviathan dreadnought with a grav-flux bombard. I'd heard terrible things about what it could do to Orks so I was prepared for a tough match.
Rough list, from memory:
Abbadon
2 Sorcerors
6 Terminators
7 Tactical Marines
2 squads of 10 cultists
5 Havoks with missile launchers and Mark of Slaanesh
Leviathan with Grav Bombard and some kind of cannon
3 Obliterators
Helldrake with Baleflamer
The game was pretty back and forth over the 4 turns we played. We both made a couple of errors, and my rolling on my KFF saves was nothing short of miraculous. But by the bottom of Turn 4 I had managed to smash his lines apart and all he had left was the Havocs up high on a building and the two units of cultists. With the rest of the board and objectives mine, the game was declared a victory for the Orks!
Thoughts on units and upgrades.
- Klaws: I'll completely admit that I was surprised by how effective the klaws were. I took klaws on all my Boyz nobz instead of Big Choppas as I've done for 8th thus far. For the new points value, I think these are extremely competitive now. At one pivotal point I got the Obliterators into close combat, but due to them being on a narrow ledge, I could only get two models in. One of those was my Nob, who swung 4 times, hit 3, wounded 3, and managed to kill 2 Obliterators straight up. Now yes, I rolled well, and my opponent rolled poorly on his saves, but that doesn't change the fact that this would have been straight up impossible with a Big Choppa. All through the game my PKs proved their worth. For their new price, I'll be taking them every game now.
- Skorchas. These were a tough one because they spent most of the game trying to flame a Helldrake. I positioned them poorly and they never got close to those juicy targets like the cultists. That being said, at 6 wounds and a nearby KFF they were surprisingly durable. I'd probably take them again at this point value.
- Meganobz. These guys really shone throughout the game. My opponent was really torn between directing his AT firepower at the MANZ, the Gunz or the Skorchas. He chose to focus on the Gunz, which made sense since they were tearing chunks out of his Leviathan, but the Manz proved their worth over and over again. I was surprised at how well they went without transports, but here's where another factor came in: the Weirdboy. He lasted all game and got Da Jump off twice, both times on a 3 man unit of MANZ coming in to help out in an existing combat. Previously I'd only ever used Da Jump on big Boyz units, but the thing is there are only a few units in the game that don't care about 3 MANZ showing up next to them. The Weirdboy was absolutely pivotal to the MANZ working as well as they did. WAAAGH Banner and KFF were big helpers too, though because I was moving the MANZ around a fair bit they weren't as pivotal as the Weirdboy. Still wouldn't leave home without them.
- Mob Up! Used this stratagem once, after the Grav Bombard and Havocs tore chunks out of one of my big Boyz mobs. I just merged it with the Boyz next to them, and the resulting mob lasted until the end of the game. Whilst it wasn't game changing, it was handy.
- +1 strength Warlord trait. Bit of a non-event this one, because my opponent didn't have anything T7. So it never made a difference. I can see in some circumstances how it might have been handy but I would have been better off taking one of the rulebook traits over this.
- Kustom Mega Kannons. Overall these were great, as usual. Why GW chose these over the other Mek Gunz to reduce in price is beyond me (probably because one of their playtesters told them the Morkanaut is overpriced so they just reduced the price on all its weapons) but I'll take the change regardless. Attracted a lot of hate but with 6 wounds they can take a bit of a pounding and the grots that are left over are some of the best objective holders in the game.
So yeah, that's my take on a bit of a different Ork list!
Glane wrote: Quick little after-action report on my game. Went up against a good mate of mine who runs Black Legion, typically with Abbadon himself leading them. In the past he's bought a landraider but today he had a new toy: a Leviathan dreadnought with a grav-flux bombard. I'd heard terrible things about what it could do to Orks so I was prepared for a tough match.
Rough list, from memory:
Abbadon
2 Sorcerors
6 Terminators
7 Tactical Marines
2 squads of 10 cultists
5 Havoks with missile launchers and Mark of Slaanesh
Leviathan with Grav Bombard and some kind of cannon
3 Obliterators
Helldrake with Baleflamer
The game was pretty back and forth over the 4 turns we played. We both made a couple of errors, and my rolling on my KFF saves was nothing short of miraculous. But by the bottom of Turn 4 I had managed to smash his lines apart and all he had left was the Havocs up high on a building and the two units of cultists. With the rest of the board and objectives mine, the game was declared a victory for the Orks!
Thoughts on units and upgrades.
- Klaws: I'll completely admit that I was surprised by how effective the klaws were. I took klaws on all my Boyz nobz instead of Big Choppas as I've done for 8th thus far. For the new points value, I think these are extremely competitive now. At one pivotal point I got the Obliterators into close combat, but due to them being on a narrow ledge, I could only get two models in. One of those was my Nob, who swung 4 times, hit 3, wounded 3, and managed to kill 2 Obliterators straight up. Now yes, I rolled well, and my opponent rolled poorly on his saves, but that doesn't change the fact that this would have been straight up impossible with a Big Choppa. All through the game my PKs proved their worth. For their new price, I'll be taking them every game now.
- Skorchas. These were a tough one because they spent most of the game trying to flame a Helldrake. I positioned them poorly and they never got close to those juicy targets like the cultists. That being said, at 6 wounds and a nearby KFF they were surprisingly durable. I'd probably take them again at this point value.
- Meganobz. These guys really shone throughout the game. My opponent was really torn between directing his AT firepower at the MANZ, the Gunz or the Skorchas. He chose to focus on the Gunz, which made sense since they were tearing chunks out of his Leviathan, but the Manz proved their worth over and over again. I was surprised at how well they went without transports, but here's where another factor came in: the Weirdboy. He lasted all game and got Da Jump off twice, both times on a 3 man unit of MANZ coming in to help out in an existing combat. Previously I'd only ever used Da Jump on big Boyz units, but the thing is there are only a few units in the game that don't care about 3 MANZ showing up next to them. The Weirdboy was absolutely pivotal to the MANZ working as well as they did. WAAAGH Banner and KFF were big helpers too, though because I was moving the MANZ around a fair bit they weren't as pivotal as the Weirdboy. Still wouldn't leave home without them.
- Mob Up! Used this stratagem once, after the Grav Bombard and Havocs tore chunks out of one of my big Boyz mobs. I just merged it with the Boyz next to them, and the resulting mob lasted until the end of the game. Whilst it wasn't game changing, it was handy.
- +1 strength Warlord trait. Bit of a non-event this one, because my opponent didn't have anything T7. So it never made a difference. I can see in some circumstances how it might have been handy but I would have been better off taking one of the rulebook traits over this.
- Kustom Mega Kannons. Overall these were great, as usual. Why GW chose these over the other Mek Gunz to reduce in price is beyond me (probably because one of their playtesters told them the Morkanaut is overpriced so they just reduced the price on all its weapons) but I'll take the change regardless. Attracted a lot of hate but with 6 wounds they can take a bit of a pounding and the grots that are left over are some of the best objective holders in the game.
So yeah, that's my take on a bit of a different Ork list!
Nice bat rep
I like your list, just not sold about the warboss in MA. You can try the footslogging warboss with the killchoppa and a painboy instead, as they are only 115 points in total, getting better CC (the killchoppa plus another pk) and the 6+ FNP which can make meganobz even more durable. I don't see the waaagh banner in your list, but you mentioned it in the bat rep. Did you take it?
Fun fact: Never bothered checking the kommandos movement stat just to find out yesterday they have 6''
Know your army.
Also tried the dakka strategem the first time yesterday with tankbustas.
Not overpowered but with rerolls i was able to kill a rhino that would have survived otherwise.
Playing deadlock with a brigade detachment i had plenty of CP to be decadent.
IMHOKMKs are way better than kannonz but they suffer more against the enemy anti tank. In a green tide list kannonz are more durable since you can field more bodies and all the anti tank goes against your artillery.
But in any other type of list, with vehicles and/or walkers, KMKs are certainly more efficient than kannonz and I tipycally use them everytime, 1-2 units of 2 KMKs each.
KMK tend to self-torch themselves, so by the 2-d turn the opponent has to chew through 4-5 wounds instead of 6. Still pretty ok due to potential damage output.
Glane wrote: Quick little after-action report on my game. Went up against a good mate of mine who runs Black Legion, typically with Abbadon himself leading them. In the past he's bought a landraider but today he had a new toy: a Leviathan dreadnought with a grav-flux bombard. I'd heard terrible things about what it could do to Orks so I was prepared for a tough match.
Rough list, from memory:
Abbadon
2 Sorcerors
6 Terminators
7 Tactical Marines
2 squads of 10 cultists
5 Havoks with missile launchers and Mark of Slaanesh
Leviathan with Grav Bombard and some kind of cannon
3 Obliterators
Helldrake with Baleflamer
The game was pretty back and forth over the 4 turns we played. We both made a couple of errors, and my rolling on my KFF saves was nothing short of miraculous. But by the bottom of Turn 4 I had managed to smash his lines apart and all he had left was the Havocs up high on a building and the two units of cultists. With the rest of the board and objectives mine, the game was declared a victory for the Orks!
Thoughts on units and upgrades.
- Klaws: I'll completely admit that I was surprised by how effective the klaws were. I took klaws on all my Boyz nobz instead of Big Choppas as I've done for 8th thus far. For the new points value, I think these are extremely competitive now. At one pivotal point I got the Obliterators into close combat, but due to them being on a narrow ledge, I could only get two models in. One of those was my Nob, who swung 4 times, hit 3, wounded 3, and managed to kill 2 Obliterators straight up. Now yes, I rolled well, and my opponent rolled poorly on his saves, but that doesn't change the fact that this would have been straight up impossible with a Big Choppa. All through the game my PKs proved their worth. For their new price, I'll be taking them every game now.
- Skorchas. These were a tough one because they spent most of the game trying to flame a Helldrake. I positioned them poorly and they never got close to those juicy targets like the cultists. That being said, at 6 wounds and a nearby KFF they were surprisingly durable. I'd probably take them again at this point value.
- Meganobz. These guys really shone throughout the game. My opponent was really torn between directing his AT firepower at the MANZ, the Gunz or the Skorchas. He chose to focus on the Gunz, which made sense since they were tearing chunks out of his Leviathan, but the Manz proved their worth over and over again. I was surprised at how well they went without transports, but here's where another factor came in: the Weirdboy. He lasted all game and got Da Jump off twice, both times on a 3 man unit of MANZ coming in to help out in an existing combat. Previously I'd only ever used Da Jump on big Boyz units, but the thing is there are only a few units in the game that don't care about 3 MANZ showing up next to them. The Weirdboy was absolutely pivotal to the MANZ working as well as they did. WAAAGH Banner and KFF were big helpers too, though because I was moving the MANZ around a fair bit they weren't as pivotal as the Weirdboy. Still wouldn't leave home without them.
- Mob Up! Used this stratagem once, after the Grav Bombard and Havocs tore chunks out of one of my big Boyz mobs. I just merged it with the Boyz next to them, and the resulting mob lasted until the end of the game. Whilst it wasn't game changing, it was handy.
- +1 strength Warlord trait. Bit of a non-event this one, because my opponent didn't have anything T7. So it never made a difference. I can see in some circumstances how it might have been handy but I would have been better off taking one of the rulebook traits over this.
- Kustom Mega Kannons. Overall these were great, as usual. Why GW chose these over the other Mek Gunz to reduce in price is beyond me (probably because one of their playtesters told them the Morkanaut is overpriced so they just reduced the price on all its weapons) but I'll take the change regardless. Attracted a lot of hate but with 6 wounds they can take a bit of a pounding and the grots that are left over are some of the best objective holders in the game.
So yeah, that's my take on a bit of a different Ork list!
Nice bat rep
I like your list, just not sold about the warboss in MA. You can try the footslogging warboss with the killchoppa and a painboy instead, as they are only 115 points in total, getting better CC (the killchoppa plus another pk) and the 6+ FNP which can make meganobz even more durable. I don't see the waaagh banner in your list, but you mentioned it in the bat rep. Did you take it?
Arg, yeah I did take it, forgot to include it in the rundown. It was useful when stuff was in range, but like I said, things got a bit spread out thanks to the Weirdboy jumping stuff around. Even hitting on 4's though, the MANZ made an impact.
Trouble with taking a Painboy is that I'd used up all 6 of my Elite slots. Yes I could burn a CP to take an auxiliary but probably because I started playing at the end of 4th edition I've always felt more comfortable with single detachments. That being said the MA Warboss was decent enough and he fit the theme of the Deffwing, plus no self-respecting Warboss is going to let his Nobz have better gear than him so he had to have Mega Armour too. I do tend more towards the narrative side of lists than pure competitive (which is a plus about playing Orks!)
As to the debate over Kannons vs KMK, I think there's a place for both. KMKs are more consistent, but Kannons have spike potential. The Leviathan copped an unsaved wound from one of my Kannons turn one and then I rolled a 6. True, the thing had FNP thanks to a sorcerer and it ignored 2 of those wounds, but regardless, it was still 4 wounds thanks to that plucky little Kannon converted years ago from a rifle bullet casing, an airhose nozzle and a cut up Trukk. Something that shouldn't be missed either is that the enemy can more effectively take out more firepower by concentrating on a KMK. Let's say you have 4 KMK and 6 Kannons, as the original example states. If the enemy takes out a KMK, you lose 25% of your shooting from those gunz. Take out a Kannon, and it's 16%. Now this can bite you on the arse when it's a kill points mission because those 6 Kannons are worth 12 goddamn KP, but there are big advantages to being more spread out. Yes the KMK has double the wounds of the Kannon but let's be honest here, if an enemy wants those things gone, it's not difficult to remove them with just a 5+ save standing between them and a trip back to the packing foam.
Even if was free it probably would not be wort it. You are still paying 55 points for a KFF-less big-mek with BS 5+.
I'd likely consider it if it were a free upgrade, at that point it would be competing with mek gunz. It would likely still be too random, as random strength and random shots hurts it a lot. But a gun that cannot be targeted has some value, in a green tide list.
Even if was free it probably would not be wort it. You are still paying 55 points for a KFF-less big-mek with BS 5+.
I'd likely consider it if it were a free upgrade, at that point it would be competing with mek gunz. It would likely still be too random, as random strength and random shots hurts it a lot. But a gun that cannot be targeted has some value, in a green tide list.
D6 shots yields about one hit and that does up to 3 Damage. -5 AP and 60 inches puts it in a different grid coordinate compared to mek gunz. You are talking about something that mostly denies an armor save to almost any model on the board. He is hard on expensive models but bad against cheap things and invul saves.
At the cost of a powerklaw (edit, oh wait, they are changing that), my two SAG meks will see play again for a bit as objective campers
Even if was free it probably would not be wort it. You are still paying 55 points for a KFF-less big-mek with BS 5+.
I'd likely consider it if it were a free upgrade, at that point it would be competing with mek gunz. It would likely still be too random, as random strength and random shots hurts it a lot. But a gun that cannot be targeted has some value, in a green tide list.
D6 shots yields about one hit and that does up to 3 Damage. -5 AP and 60 inches puts it in a different grid coordinate compared to mek gunz. You are talking about something that mostly denies an armor save to almost any model on the board. He is hard on expensive models but bad against cheap things and invul saves.
At the cost of a powerklaw (edit, oh wait, they are changing that), my two SAG meks will see play again for a bit as objective campers
The issue will be the random strength. Some times it will do well, others it will be your S12 gun gets 1 shot, and your S2 one gets 6, so your 2 hits will be S2 AP -5. If it had fixed strength I think it would be a very good option. As it is I fear it being too swingy for its cost.
Eh, due to the way strength and toughness interact in 8th a strength of 2d6 bascially means you wound all infantry on 3+ and all vehicles on 5+ with a marginal chance to roll better or worse.
S5 AP-5 is very likely and not bad at all.
As long as you don't bank on rolling your average of 7, strength is not going to be your problem. Rolling d6 shots that hit on 5+ is.
I'm kinda glad we haven't got a codex yet and it appears after demon tau and necrons are next because with chapter approved it still doesn't appear Gw has a clue how to make orks competitive. I can only presume after Tyranids and chapter approved Gw will have a better idea of what we need
I'm still confused where is the mega dread and grot bomb and battle fortress data sheets fw promised.
It's that D6 shots on 5+ BS that has wrecked the SAG for me too, so much so that the point cost is immaterial. It's so rare to get good hits in that even when you roll well on strength, you're not guaranteed anything actually happening.
House ruling 2D6 shots on it only made it point worthy. Às it stands, even if it cost the same as a Kannon, I'd take a kannon.
SAG Mek is my favorite 40k model. I haven't used it yet this edition because it seems pretty useless. I'm hoping they give us some way to make it more powerful at the risk of it backfiring horribly.
Some other factions have been getting a stratagem where instead of firing or casting psychic powers you pick three Vindicators/Zoanthropes/Whatever and they get to do AoE mortal wounds. I remember there being an Aocalypse formation way back when where three SAG could fire at the same target and they produced one apocalyptic blast instead of individual large blasts. Maybe we'll get something along those lines with SAG Big Meks? If itfollows the formula of some of the other ones we could have the best version, as theoretically it could be any visible point within 60" which is way further than the range of Vindicators or Zoanthropes. Also, 3x SAG Big Meks is cheaper than three Vindicators or Zoanthrope units.
I used a MANz missile in my last game. It worked out pretty well, but this was a casual game against a new player who deployed really aggressively with his Black Templars. The surprising thing was how much damage they actually managed to do despite the -1 to hit.
My dice were hot that game though. In one shooting phase my Trukk full of Tankbustas with bomb squigs actually managed to blow up an unharmed Predator and a Dreadnought that only had one wound. In past games I had been using small suicide squads of Tankbustas with Da Jump and they hadn't been doing too well.
The strategy is to put the Nobz and the Waaagh! Banner nob in the trukk and rush them up the field, using the ammo runts if the trukk is destroyed. The Tankbustas also use a trukk, using the squigs in the same way.
The two weirdboyz Warpath the shootas, which are then jumped, giving them 4 attacks on the charge as well as plenty of shooting power for any nearby units. This lets the stormboyz and bikers move up along with the nobz and tankbustas to pressure the enemy while the other two boyz blobs with warbosses move up.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I can't complain much about the kill tank price hike, it was quite undercosted.
But I'm, again, surprised they didn't give garg squiggoths a price hike, it's STILL undercosted.
On forgeworld's site, the Gargantuan Squiggoth has changed from "temporarily out of stock" to "no longer available." Does this mean they just stopped making it? Could also be why there was no price hike.
I've always thought it would be fun to own one, if impractical. I'm assuming that will no longer be possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, zzap guns are gone from GW's site. I wonder if they've been removed from the book.
D'oh! I was thinking about getting that G Squiggoth even if it got nerfed and just sat on my display shelf. Well when it does get nerfed in the endless cycle I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Want some feedback on a 2000 pt list I've been brewing. It's nothing meant for comp, though my casual scene can get a bit killy at times.
The strategy is to put the Nobz and the Waaagh! Banner nob in the trukk and rush them up the field, using the ammo runts if the trukk is destroyed. The Tankbustas also use a trukk, using the squigs in the same way.
The two weirdboyz Warpath the shootas, which are then jumped, giving them 4 attacks on the charge as well as plenty of shooting power for any nearby units. This lets the stormboyz and bikers move up along with the nobz and tankbustas to pressure the enemy while the other two boyz blobs with warbosses move up.
It's nice. I'd just add as many ammo runts you can take in the nobz squad, they are cheap ablative wounds that make the unit way tougher. I'd also split the bikes into 2-3 min units with stock nobz.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Want some feedback on a 2000 pt list I've been brewing. It's nothing meant for comp, though my casual scene can get a bit killy at times.
The strategy is to put the Nobz and the Waaagh! Banner nob in the trukk and rush them up the field, using the ammo runts if the trukk is destroyed. The Tankbustas also use a trukk, using the squigs in the same way.
The two weirdboyz Warpath the shootas, which are then jumped, giving them 4 attacks on the charge as well as plenty of shooting power for any nearby units. This lets the stormboyz and bikers move up along with the nobz and tankbustas to pressure the enemy while the other two boyz blobs with warbosses move up.
- As blackie said, buy ammo runts for nobz, they basically make nobz 3 wound models. Make sure to take all weapons that deal 2 or more damage on gretchin, and anything you can use your 4+ save against on nobz.
- That skorcha nob could use a powa stabba. Take a stabby choppa (read: sword) from the boyz or nobz bits, paint it to look like a SM power sword and stick it to that nob. If you're lucky the nob body already has a choppa in his belt.
- Shootas on the PK nobz in your boyz units are free, take them!
- Kustom shoota is usually not worth the points unless you're you have 4 spare points after having bought everything else. You are basically paying 4 points for a shoota, when a
- I don't really see the point in the grot battalion. 6 CP are already plenty, you could get a 7th instead by fielding a vanguard with your three elite choices and spent those points on kannons or KMK. If you don't have the models, lootaz or planes might work as well. There is no reason to waste 90 points on gretchin to get 2 more CP.
- Nobz in trukks tend to end up as nobz in craters. Don't drive them at your enemy at top speed, but take detours to have your trukk in cover or maybe even out of sight after turn one. When they have more pressing issues like bikers, tank bustaz, strom boyz and jumping boyz in their face, the trukk can maybe drive past roadblock units and take down some valuable targets. You should aim then at stuff like predators, razorbacks, leman russes, dark reapers or tyrannofexes. Or use them to assassinate their warlord, unless its Primarch.
Vitali Advenil wrote: Want some feedback on a 2000 pt list I've been brewing. It's nothing meant for comp, though my casual scene can get a bit killy at times.
The strategy is to put the Nobz and the Waaagh! Banner nob in the trukk and rush them up the field, using the ammo runts if the trukk is destroyed. The Tankbustas also use a trukk, using the squigs in the same way.
The two weirdboyz Warpath the shootas, which are then jumped, giving them 4 attacks on the charge as well as plenty of shooting power for any nearby units. This lets the stormboyz and bikers move up along with the nobz and tankbustas to pressure the enemy while the other two boyz blobs with warbosses move up.
- As blackie said, buy ammo runts for nobz, they basically make nobz 3 wound models. Make sure to take all weapons that deal 2 or more damage on gretchin, and anything you can use your 4+ save against on nobz.
- That skorcha nob could use a powa stabba. Take a stabby choppa (read: sword) from the boyz or nobz bits, paint it to look like a SM power sword and stick it to that nob. If you're lucky the nob body already has a choppa in his belt.
- Shootas on the PK nobz in your boyz units are free, take them!
- Kustom shoota is usually not worth the points unless you're you have 4 spare points after having bought everything else. You are basically paying 4 points for a shoota, when a
- I don't really see the point in the grot battalion. 6 CP are already plenty, you could get a 7th instead by fielding a vanguard with your three elite choices and spent those points on kannons or KMK. If you don't have the models, lootaz or planes might work as well. There is no reason to waste 90 points on gretchin to get 2 more CP.
- Nobz in trukks tend to end up as nobz in craters. Don't drive them at your enemy at top speed, but take detours to have your trukk in cover or maybe even out of sight after turn one. When they have more pressing issues like bikers, tank bustaz, strom boyz and jumping boyz in their face, the trukk can maybe drive past roadblock units and take down some valuable targets. You should aim then at stuff like predators, razorbacks, leman russes, dark reapers or tyrannofexes. Or use them to assassinate their warlord, unless its Primarch.
I can definitely double-down on the runts. That's no problem. And I can definitely slap a powa stabba on the nob. Removing the kustom shootas is a decent idea, too- I'll go with that since they're not all that fantastic.
I also didn't think about the vanguard detachment rather than the grot one. That lets me fit my KMKs back in. And yeah, the idea with the nobz is that everything else flying in their face at top speed would be a priority while I sneak the nobz around terrain. Thanks for the tips.
Tried big trakks with supa-skorcha and with 5 tankbustas + 1 bomb squig in it, it rocks! This marvelous unit costs 258 pts. Both big trakk and tankbustas have 24" range, that's perfect (bomb squig has 18"). If the mobile fortress rule would apply to units embarked, it could work with lootas also.
Supa-Skorcha is so good, 4D3 autohit shots, S6 AP-2 Dam1. It's dead killy against T3 (but everything is), excellent against T5, and good against the rest! 4D3 autohits is like 24 shots for orks, but even better! Overwatch is deadly, so your opponent will probably need engage you via pile-in/consolidate. AP-2 is godsend.
15 wounds, when backed by a KFF mek, is pretty durable. Ramshackle would have been nice, though.
Supa Skorcha Trakk seems nice and all, but it's basically a Hellhound with a small transport capacity. And a Hellhound costs 101 points. The Big Trakk is heavily overcosted (like every vehicle we have).
Weazel wrote: Supa Skorcha Trakk seems nice and all, but it's basically a Hellhound with a small transport capacity. And a Hellhound costs 101 points. The Big Trakk is heavily overcosted (like every vehicle we have).
Exactly. You can also ditch the super-skorcha on the big-trakk and give it two skorchas instead. Then you have a heavy flamer chimera, where you pay 40 points extra for the open topped capability. For the same amount of points you can get 3½ Skorcha Wartrakks.
I don't know if there are any competetive Ork transports right now. The Squiggoth or the Warkopta perhaps? They just received point-reductions.
GW is making a big survey for all their custommers.
I think it would be important to seize this opportunity to let GW know what we think of the game, It may not ammount to much, but it sure shoudn't hurt
gnome_idea_what wrote: Actually, the warkopta might be viable. The point reduction was a lot of help, and it might take the position of best transport by default.
As a former Ork player that might be persuaded back into 40k I need to know where are the rules for the warkopta and super skorcha track and so pn listed? Is all this in the current codex or something? I havnt played since 5th so much of this is new to me
As a former Ork player that might be persuaded back into 40k I need to know where are the rules for the warkopta and super skorcha track and so pn listed? Is all this in the current codex or something? I havnt played since 5th so much of this is new to me
Rules for those and other forge world models are in the Forge world xenos index, which is quite reasonably priced for a FW book.
gnome_idea_what wrote: Actually, the warkopta might be viable. The point reduction was a lot of help, and it might take the position of best transport by default.
As a former Ork player that might be persuaded back into 40k I need to know where are the rules for the warkopta and super skorcha track and so pn listed? Is all this in the current codex or something? I havnt played since 5th so much of this is new to me
The rules are in the Imperial Armor: Index - Xenos. The point costs are also there, but some of them has been updated in the recently published Chapter Approved 2017. The Warkopta received a massive points reduction.
gnome_idea_what wrote: Actually, the warkopta might be viable. The point reduction was a lot of help, and it might take the position of best transport by default.
Yes, now we just need something worth transporting...
MANZ might qualify but the Warkopta can't take them. Tankbustas would work but despite having no actual top, the Warkopta isn't open topped. 5 man Nob squad with 5 ammo runts is about the best thing I can think of and that doesn't sound that great.
gnome_idea_what wrote: Actually, the warkopta might be viable. The point reduction was a lot of help, and it might take the position of best transport by default.
Yes, now we just need something worth transporting...
MANZ might qualify but the Warkopta can't take them. Tankbustas would work but despite having no actual top, the Warkopta isn't open topped. 5 man Nob squad with 5 ammo runts is about the best thing I can think of and that doesn't sound that great.
It also isn't supersonic, so it can be shot easily and can be charged. if it were truly a flying transport it might be ok, as it, I guess it's basically a trukk with an actually decent gun. Though I just remembered it can only take heavy weapons and isn't immune to the penalty from them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *correction - it's basically an orky drop pod, as it can deep strike. That's actually not half bad.
fe40k wrote: Except the units can’t disembark immediately, or shoot out of t...
So, the transport, and unit entire, has to endure a while turn of enemy shooting before it can do anything.
It’s a transport that can’t transport, a gun platform that can’t shoot (hitting on 6s+no open topped); it’s cheap, and that’s about it.
I don’t like it at all - now, if it had open topped, that’d actually be ok; deepstriking some shooting units where you need them.
So in summary what we have here is a troop transport that can't carry troops, a fast attack vehicle that can't actually hit anything, and a quasi-gunship that has less armor than a trukk, but has enough ammo to take out half of Armageddon.
The best way of thinking of the Warkopta is as two Deffkoptas with big bomms and a transport capacity. I think the best use of it is to fill it up with choppa-boyz or grots and then just fly it into your opponents backfield, drop a bomb and charge something shooty. It won't do much damage, but it will require a lot of attention from your opponent. If it should survive it can disembark the suicide unit, fall back and drop the other big bomm. You can give it a skorcha, but that is probably a waste of points.
It's deepstrike ability is pretty hard to use, because it cannot move or disembark the moment it deploys from reserves, and it has poor shooting and is not open-topped (which is bizarre). Personally I would only put it into reserves if the board had some midfield blocking terrain I could put it behind on turn 1.
pismakron wrote: The best way of thinking of the Warkopta is as two Deffkoptas with big bomms and a transport capacity. I think the best use of it is to fill it up with choppa-boyz or grots and then just fly it into your opponents backfield, drop a bomb and charge something shooty. It won't do much damage, but it will require a lot of attention from your opponent. If it should survive it can disembark the suicide unit, fall back and drop the other big bomm. You can give it a skorcha, but that is probably a waste of points.
Great. A distraction carnifex in a codex filled with distraction carnifexes. And worst of all it's not even a carnifex, just a distraction.
pismakron wrote: The best way of thinking of the Warkopta is as two Deffkoptas with big bomms and a transport capacity. I think the best use of it is to fill it up with choppa-boyz or grots and then just fly it into your opponents backfield, drop a bomb and charge something shooty. It won't do much damage, but it will require a lot of attention from your opponent. If it should survive it can disembark the suicide unit, fall back and drop the other big bomm. You can give it a skorcha, but that is probably a waste of points.
Great. A distraction carnifex in a codex filled with distraction carnifexes. And worst of all it's not even a carnifex, just a distraction.
That's pretty much what it is. It cannot compete with boyz-spam, nothing can really, but bringing a Warkopta is probably better than bringing two Deffkoptas. If you just want a transport, the trukk is probably better even if it is not good. The transport tax is 7 points per model for a trukk, 8 for a Warkopta, 9 for a deff-rolla wagon, 12 for a big-trakk and 16 for a squiggoth.
The things the Warkopta has going for it is its deff-guns and bombs and the ability to fly over screens. The trukk is cheaper, slightly less fragile and is open topped.
Mates, I'm adding stormboyz to my army. Since I have little experience with them I'm asking: are 3x10 stormboyz with pks a solid option? Or decent at least.
A unit of 30 is certainly quite fascinating but I fear it would become high priority and I'll never get the +1A granted by the number of the mob if I go second. This is why I'm planning on splitting the mob into three squads, I can also bring more pks this way. Zagstruk joins them.
I'm not going to bring more stormboyz, I don't want to add more than 30 stormboyz and zagstruk.
Blackie wrote: Mates, I'm adding stormboyz to my army. Since I have little experience with them I'm asking: are 3x10 stormboyz with pks a solid option? Or decent at least.
A unit of 30 is certainly quite fascinating but I fear it would become high priority and I'll never get the +1A granted by the number of the mob if I go second. This is why I'm planning on splitting the mob into three squads, I can also bring more pks this way. Zagstruk joins them.
I'm not going to bring more stormboyz, I don't want to add more than 30 stormboyz and zagstruk.
1x30 or 3x10?
I've heard that going MSU spam of Storms + Zagstruk is pretty decent. Don't worry about +1A, you'll never get it since storms don't have green tide to begin with
MSU means 5 dudes per squad though, which is something I don't really like. My desire to field them is mostly a fluffy one since I'm converting 30 boyz into stormboyz by adding a scratch built rocket behind their backs and I'd like to have the chance to use zagstruk, which is one of the few models (along with planes and stompa) I don't currently own and I want to add it to my collection.
So the goal is to field 30 stormboyz and zagstruk. 3x5 stormboyz, or even 6x5 is something that doesn't interest me.
About the bonus mob, my bad, since I didn't use stormboyz in this edition I've never read their profile, I thought they had the bonus like regular boyz.
I think going with 3x10 stormboyz is certainly better than bringing the full mob of 30 and I'll probably try that combo.
Blackie wrote: MSU means 5 dudes per squad though, which is something I don't really like. My desire to field them is mostly a fluffy one since I'm converting 30 boyz into stormboyz by adding a scratch built rocket behind their backs and I'd like to have the chance to use zagstruk, which is one of the few models (along with planes and stompa) I don't currently own and I want to add it to my collection.
So the goal is to field 30 stormboyz and zagstruk. 3x5 stormboyz, or even 6x5 is something that doesn't interest me.
About the bonus mob, my bad, since I didn't use stormboyz in this edition I've never read their profile, I thought they had the bonus like regular boyz.
I think going with 3x10 stormboyz is certainly better than bringing the full mob of 30 and I'll probably try that combo.
And with 10 man squads you can conserve the PK-nob with the new stratagem.
So, with the new stratagem and the big price drop for power klaws, would people say that Meganobz are back in action? For 1cp, you can Mob Up a 10-man and 9-man unit of meganobz to create a mega-mob of 19 that you can then drop Warpath and Da Jump on and shoot them straight into the enemy army. Good? I have absolutely no idea. Hilarious? Almost certainly! Certainly a huge points investment, but they will most definitely command more attention and be harder to remove than the usual 30-boy distraction squad I currently pop in.
Other than the obvious mid-game mob consolidation, are there any other fun combos people have thought up for use with the new stratagem?
Looking through the list, you could effectively add 9 to the max squad size to lootas, tankbustas, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Nobz, Meganobz, Burna Boyz, or Flash Gitz. that gets you synergy with Mob Rule, psychic powers and other stratagems. Not quite as bonkers as the 30boyz+9MANZ combo from the rumored version of the stratagem, but still decent. HOw are yall planning on making use of this new tool?
the_scotsman wrote: So, with the new stratagem and the big price drop for power klaws, would people say that Meganobz are back in action? For 1cp, you can Mob Up a 10-man and 9-man unit of meganobz to create a mega-mob of 19 that you can then drop Warpath and Da Jump on and shoot them straight into the enemy army. Good? I have absolutely no idea. Hilarious? Almost certainly! Certainly a huge points investment, but they will most definitely command more attention and be harder to remove than the usual 30-boy distraction squad I currently pop in.
Other than the obvious mid-game mob consolidation, are there any other fun combos people have thought up for use with the new stratagem?
Looking through the list, you could effectively add 9 to the max squad size to lootas, tankbustas, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Nobz, Meganobz, Burna Boyz, or Flash Gitz. that gets you synergy with Mob Rule, psychic powers and other stratagems. Not quite as bonkers as the 30boyz+9MANZ combo from the rumored version of the stratagem, but still decent. HOw are yall planning on making use of this new tool?
I think you can mob together two units of ten also. But we are talking about 840 points of meganobz, 1000 points with twin killsaws. So you better roll well on that charge roll. A more realistic proposition is perhaps 10 PK-nobs + 10 bc-nobs + 10 ammo runts. That is still 580 points though.
I think the best use of this stratagem is to conserve the nob and eavy weapon from boyz squads by mobbing them into larger blobs. At turn 4 you may have a boy blob with 4 PK-nobz and 10 big shootas. Not great, but not all bad either. Another use could be to take footslogging nobz with ten ammo runts in each squad. Every time a squad us out of runts it can join the squad next to itself.
Yoda79 wrote: Hi can someone help me with a 1500 superb list for a tour im heading this weekend?
cant have named chars 1500 2 detachments. what is the best i could get any help?
1 PK Warboss
1 PK Painboy
2 Weirdboyz (da jump, warpath)
1 Big Mek + KFF 3 * 30 Boyz, Boss Nob with PK 2*15 Kommandos, Boss Nob with PK, Burnas
3 Rocket buggys
3 KMK
Brigade~1500 points,12CP
Put all of your boyz under the KFF umbrella with the rest of the characters in the middle. Put buggys and Kommandos into reserves. Deploy your KMKs last. On your first turn jump 30 boyz ahead and deepstrike the kommandos, and put the rocket buggys somewhere. Advance with the rest of your boys and all of your characters.
Yoda79 wrote: Hi can someone help me with a 1500 superb list for a tour im heading this weekend?
cant have named chars 1500 2 detachments. what is the best i could get any help?
1 PK Warboss
1 PK Painboy
2 Weirdboyz (da jump, warpath)
1 Big Mek + KFF 3 * 30 Boyz, Boss Nob with PK 2*15 Kommandos, Boss Nob with PK, Burnas
3 Rocket buggys
3 KMK
Brigade~1500 points,12CP
Put all of your boyz under the KFF umbrella with the rest of the characters in the middle. Put buggys and Kommandos into reserves. Deploy your KMKs last. On your first turn jump 30 boyz ahead and deepstrike the kommandos, and put the rocket buggys somewhere. Advance with the rest of your boys and all of your characters.
Seems to be missing 3 troop choices to be a Brigade
Looks like 4HQs, 3 elites, 3 Troops, 3 Fast, 3 Heavies. You could drop an HQ and some klaws/ models to get 3 minimum gretchin squads, otherwise this is at best
1 Battalion
1 Other (vanguard, outrider, spearhead)
Yoda79 wrote: Hi can someone help me with a 1500 superb list for a tour im heading this weekend?
cant have named chars 1500 2 detachments. what is the best i could get any help?
1 PK Warboss
1 PK Painboy
2 Weirdboyz (da jump, warpath)
1 Big Mek + KFF 3 * 30 Boyz, Boss Nob with PK 2*15 Kommandos, Boss Nob with PK, Burnas
3 Rocket buggys
3 KMK
Brigade~1500 points,12CP
Put all of your boyz under the KFF umbrella with the rest of the characters in the middle. Put buggys and Kommandos into reserves. Deploy your KMKs last. On your first turn jump 30 boyz ahead and deepstrike the kommandos, and put the rocket buggys somewhere. Advance with the rest of your boys and all of your characters.
Seems to be missing 3 troop choices to be a Brigade
Looks like 4HQs, 3 elites, 3 Troops, 3 Fast, 3 Heavies. You could drop an HQ and some klaws/ models to get 3 minimum gretchin squads, otherwise this is at best
1 Battalion
1 Other (vanguard, outrider, spearhead)
So 7 CP
Oh yeah, I can see that. I think the best way to go then would be to drop the buggys and get an extra 3*10 boyz for two batallions. If in doubt, bring more boyz. Regards
Today I played 1250, so close to your point range.
3x30 + 1x20ish boyz with BC nobz
KFF big mek and painboy to protect the boyz.
1 kannon just for fun
1xKommandos
4 weirdboys - inside boyz blobs to get at least +3 on smites
Warboss with PK.
For 1500 I would make the last boyz unit full, add one or two more psykers, PKs all around, one more kommandos unit and some more kannons. Can’t do the math now.
Smites from boyz blobs worked pretty well and the horde lasted OK with the KFF + painboy combo
the_scotsman wrote: So, with the new stratagem and the big price drop for power klaws, would people say that Meganobz are back in action? For 1cp, you can Mob Up a 10-man and 9-man unit of meganobz to create a mega-mob of 19 that you can then drop Warpath and Da Jump on and shoot them straight into the enemy army. Good? I have absolutely no idea. Hilarious? Almost certainly! Certainly a huge points investment, but they will most definitely command more attention and be harder to remove than the usual 30-boy distraction squad I currently pop in.
Other than the obvious mid-game mob consolidation, are there any other fun combos people have thought up for use with the new stratagem?
Looking through the list, you could effectively add 9 to the max squad size to lootas, tankbustas, Kommandos, Stormboyz, Nobz, Meganobz, Burna Boyz, or Flash Gitz. that gets you synergy with Mob Rule, psychic powers and other stratagems. Not quite as bonkers as the 30boyz+9MANZ combo from the rumored version of the stratagem, but still decent. HOw are yall planning on making use of this new tool?
There's a few issues with making that giant unit of MANZ. The first is that whilst you're likely to liquefy anything you make contact with, whatever you kill better be damn worth it, because next turn you're going to be facing a lot of hate. Which leads to the next problem, which is because of the increased firepower available to armies in 8th, putting everything into one big unit tends to be a bad idea. The opponent can then just focus all their firepower into it, and likely remove it a lot of the time. It's why big expensive units are so much worse in 8th; outside of stuff like Baneblades which have godlike firepower, you don't see as many super-heavies as you did before, because many armies have a trivially easy time deleting them (big cheap units on the other hand are great because blasts went away and firepower on anti-infantry didn't go up much but anti-tank firepower got dramatically better).
Anyway, on the subject of MANZ, I did have a surprising amount of success with my MANZ list when I played earlier in the week. But I ran 5 squads of 3 MANZ and used Da Jump to bring them in for sandwich attacks from the rear. Most units can't ignore 3 MANZ showing up next to them.
My problem with 3 MANz squads is that they just aren't that killy anymore. Let me Mathhammer this real quick.
7th:
3 MANz, PK's had 12 attacks on the charge.
Assuming WS 4 vs WS 4, they hit on 4's, meaning 6 hits.
At S8 and AP2, that's 5 dead MEQ and 4 dead TEQ.
8th
3 MANz, PK's have 9 attacks on the charge.
Since they hit on 4's, that's 4.5 hits.
Vs MEQ that's 3 dead MEQ and 2.5 dead TEQ assuming you roll 2 or higher for the damage.
Also considering that MANz are now more expensive and that trukks are more expensive, I cannot justify a unit of 3 MANz vs a unit of 5 nobs with ammo runts. It's a shame, too, because I love using them. My only hope is that our codex fixes them. But until then, I'll just keep using boss nobz.
Disclaimer: I'm three beers into my first free weekend in a month so if my math is off please forgive me.
Vitali Advenil wrote: My problem with 3 MANz squads is that they just aren't that killy anymore. Let me Mathhammer this real quick.
7th:
3 MANz, PK's had 12 attacks on the charge.
Assuming WS 4 vs WS 4, they hit on 4's, meaning 6 hits.
At S8 and AP2, that's 5 dead MEQ and 4 dead TEQ.
8th
3 MANz, PK's have 9 attacks on the charge.
Since they hit on 4's, that's 4.5 hits.
Vs MEQ that's 3 dead MEQ and 2.5 dead TEQ assuming you roll 2 or higher for the damage.
Also considering that MANz are now more expensive and that trukks are more expensive, I cannot justify a unit of 3 MANz vs a unit of 5 nobs with ammo runts. It's a shame, too, because I love using them. My only hope is that our codex fixes them. But until then, I'll just keep using boss nobz.
Disclaimer: I'm three beers into my first free weekend in a month so if my math is off please forgive me.
Not as killy no. But 3 wounds and 2+ save means your opponent tends to use anti-tank weaponry against them, as opposed to Nobz that can be boltered down fairly easily. I didn't run mine with Trukks either; I just footslogged them, which I did wonder about, but it worked quite well. Having a KFF nearby was handy, and my opponent had no lascannons, but he also had 3 KMK and 3 Kannons to worry about that were pounding him. Also, WAAAGH Banners obviously work fantastically with MANZ, and if I could squeeze another one into my list I probably would.
All I can say is that the MANZ performed much better than I thought they would. If I had the models I'd have given every one of them 2 killsaws; the payoff there is just too big, and the Kustom Shoota is worthless. My advice is to just try them out and see how they go. I was sceptical, but after trying them out I want to run them again.
I think it's my old 7th mentality. MANz missiles were amazing in 7th. If I catered to them more, they probably would do work. I'll experiment with lists to see how I can use them better.
I'd play meganobz only with killsaws to be honest, for only 6 more points you'll get +1A and a -1AP basically.
Before CA they were 63 points compared to the 54 which was the price of stock meganobz and IMHO they were too expensive, but 48 compared to 42 looks almost an auto-take for me.
I haven't tried an 8th edition bullyboyz yet, but a unit of 3-5 dudes all with killsaws isn't terrible anymore. I prefer having them embarked though, in a trukk or in a BW joined by 10-12 boyz.
Vitali Advenil wrote: I think it's my old 7th mentality. MANz missiles were amazing in 7th. If I catered to them more, they probably would do work. I'll experiment with lists to see how I can use them better.
Yes, but also in seventh edition the Boss Nob with klaw would absolutely wreck, whereas the boyz in his squad was mostly just tag along wounds. In 8th this is more or less reversed. Charge a rhino with a squad of choppa boyz, and the hailstorm of S4 attacks will do far more damage than the boss Klaw.
In eight edition number of attacks is more important than AP, and AP is more important than S.
That being said, meganobz and boss nobs are improved a lot by the klaw/saw price reduction. And they are hurt less by expensive transports than boyz.
In 7th a unit of bully boyz could easilly one-shot a baneblade. Now a baneblade will overwatch them and than just loose 1/3 of it's wounds. The main difference for pk is that they no longer obliterate vehicles
koooaei wrote: In 7th a unit of bully boyz could easilly one-shot a baneblade. Now a baneblade will overwatch them and than just loose 1/3 of it's wounds. The main difference for pk is that they no longer obliterate vehicles
Eight PK nobz with Ghaz and Bruce Banner will one shot a baneblade. And they will fit in a trukk.
Yeah but vehicles, like the baneblade, didn't struck at all in close combat. Another difference is that pks don't instant kill stuff anymore. A warboss with pk could kill a T5 multiwounds model with a strong invuln just with a single hit that went through its saves. Meganobz could instant kill T4 enemies. Now those nasty units can absorb S10+ hit quite better, and they actually have even more wounds now.
Glane wrote: I'd be very interested to see how different things would be if PKs were D6dmg.
I suggested this some weeks ago. Orks have always relied on PKs and rokkit spam to mitigate their weak anti-tank capabilities. Since rokkit spam is no longer possible because rokkits themselves as well as their platforms have become too expensive, it's on a PK alone. However, to make a single nob or even warboss dangerous to a vehicle, it needs to do more than 3 damage.
When you charge Thrakka into a vehicle, monster, character or otherwise resilient unit (for example, Centurions) he 'feels' right because every failed save does 3 damage. Four failed saves mean dead target. When I charge a warboss into something, I need to make sure to have shot whatever I want to kill halfway dead already. Nobz and nob characters are not dangerous to vehicles at all, I've had a nob and the two last boyz from his squad tied up by a rhino, because there was no chance in hell that they would actually be able to kill it.
Jidmah wrote: I've had a nob and the two last boyz from his squad tied up by a rhino, because there was no chance in hell that they would actually be able to kill it.
This kind of illustrates the situation: A PK-nob will do 1.67 wounds per turn to a rhino, while the two slugga boyz will do a respectable 0.44 wounds per turn to a vehicle. PK nobz are kind of ok now that they are cheap, but they still don't do much. Boyz, on the other hand, are pure awesomeness in large numbers. They will do lots of damage to anything not T8 or Sv 2+.
New player for orks reporting in after the bundle for christmas.
So is it mandatory to run 90 boyz? Since a batallion is really important and gretchins are awful. Boyz are the only choice. Not running a max squad feels a tad wasteful. Is there a way to not run 90 boys and be ultra competitive?
rvd1ofakind wrote: New player for orks reporting in after the bundle for christmas.
So is it mandatory to run 90 boyz? Since a batallion is really important and gretchins are awful. Boyz are the only choice. Not running a max squad feels a tad wasteful. Is there a way to not run 90 boys and be ultra competitive?
Not if you want a chance of winning. 90 boyz is minimum. Most runs about 150-180. Regards
Transports - Been running G - Squig/BW with a single truck, mostly for elite protection, they are also great for reducing the number of drops you have for any single units char. or small units. But being so expensive in points Taking < 500 pts in a 2k has been feeling about right...
Played a game of 8th the other day against a DE bird flock + clowns list.
Used 58 shoots boyz with 2 PK Nobz
12 Killa Kanz with big shootas
3 Dakkajets
Deffdread with 4 claws
Waaagh Banner
Painboy
MA Warboss
And 10 grots
1. Shoots Boyz did work with their insane number of melee attacks, volume of dakka, and being disposable fodder when needed.
2. Waaaghbanner is stupidly good. This truely is aura hammer.
3. Painboy helped but I don't think a painboy is very good with specialist units but much better with big blobs of boyz.
4. Kanz in melee are scary good. Waaaghbanner makes them hit reliably they are relatively cheap. Big Shootas on them didn't do jack all and I don't think your getting much more mileage from grotzookas (RIP you beautiful wound spamming beast).
5. Power Klaws sorta suck at killing high wound targets. D3 wounds just doesn't feel like enough when before Klaws would rip a tank half in one round of combat but now it's barely scratching the paint.
6. Dakkajets are garbage at trying to shoot down aircraft.
7. Warboss and Deffdread didn't do much as they lack the number of attacks to really reliably kill things quick enough.
Specialist units feel too expensive while anything you can spam for cheap is good because it's so much to try and mulch through.
Also Dakkajets seem to only need to fly around in a box like movement pattern and they can basically shoot out their rear at anything on the board.
KillerOfMany wrote: Transports - Been running G - Squig/BW with a single truck, mostly for elite protection, they are also great for reducing the number of drops you have for any single units char. or small units. But being so expensive in points Taking < 500 pts in a 2k has been feeling about right...
rvd1ofakind wrote: New player for orks reporting in after the bundle for christmas.
So is it mandatory to run 90 boyz? Since a batallion is really important and gretchins are awful. Boyz are the only choice. Not running a max squad feels a tad wasteful. Is there a way to not run 90 boys and be ultra competitive?
They're mandatory only in super competitive metas. You can run a dread mob with not a single boy or even a speed freaks list with 60-80 boyz embarked in trukks and BWs and have decent results against anything but tournament lists.
Boyz are very good but mixing styles doesn't work with orks, they can only spam T4, T5 or T8 to be effective. In my experience 90-120 boyz and a few vehicles are worse than a list with only T5 and lesser boyz or dread mobz. I'm referring at 2000 points games since I only play with that budget, in smaller formats things could be completely different.
So greentides with no vehicles at all (just cheap artillery at most) or trukks, buggies, planes, kans, artillery and bikes spam or BWs and naughts spam. A mix with T8 and a few T5 units can also work. FW has other good options as well.
KillerOfMany wrote: Transports - Been running G - Squig/BW with a single truck, mostly for elite protection, they are also great for reducing the number of drops you have for any single units char. or small units. But being so expensive in points Taking < 500 pts in a 2k has been feeling about right...
Which elites do you usually run?
1-2 painboyz with the greentide, sometimes a banner nob, 10-20 tankbustas in mechanized lists, sometimes 5 nobz or 3-5 meganobz always embarked. Kommandos are very popular in greentides, they can be effective in min units or bigger ones, I use both 5 man squads and 15 man ones.
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable). This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish). I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options. Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .
I feel that to make Gretchin more viable, they'd need a points drop to 2 ppm. OR they make them useful in doing something that supplements the boyz/the army. Presuming that they don't add weapon options (such as the much demanded grot snipa rifles), making them the sticky anvil to the boyz' hammer would be cool, like giving them a special rule where non-vehicle/monster enemy units in combat with gretchin cannot fall back, fluffwise being that the sheer number of grotz drag their opponents down for boyz to smack em up good. This makes it so that the typical fall back and shoot tactic for many shooty armies in dealing with boyz could be countered and grotz have an actual purpose in combat.
KillerOfMany wrote: Transports - Been running G - Squig/BW with a single truck, mostly for elite protection, they are also great for reducing the number of drops you have for any single units char. or small units. But being so expensive in points Taking < 500 pts in a 2k has been feeling about right...
Which elites do you usually run?
base HQ of KFF big mek on bike for the transports, odd boy in truck, a little mek since i run KMK's, waagghh!! banner nob, maby a pain boy if I have a Warboss or Gazkull in there, fill the rest with kill saw mega nobs or just BC nobs with ammo runts (I agree with the D3 on power klaws being lack luster)... anything other than that usually doesn't make its points back, especially if you roll the 1 VP for every unit killed missions ect. (6 KMK = 252 points for 12 VP WHAT>!!?!?!?)
- On the note of elite/troop & heavy infantry units being better, ive always liked the idea a mobs of 30 boys; but you can equip lets say up to 15 of them (same type per unit) with your choice of weapons/special rules and or/upgrade to nobs, ect. This give the unit blast wounds and makes tankbustas/lootas/nobs/burnas/big shootas/flash gits, all cheaper. Give each weapon a point value rather than just "some cheep model with gun or free gun with costly model" too odd...
For transports...pretty much the G.Squiggoth, everything else is horrendously over priced and not worth taking. Add to that the fact that I can purchase a Weirdboy for cheaper then a Trukk and guarantee a delivery of at least 30 Boyz a turn anywhere on the map I want and....whats the point?
To even add more to that, Kommandos are 9pts a pop (3pts more then a regular Boy) 12 Boyz can ride in a Trukk which has to take at least a Big shoota which puts the actual price of the trukk at 82pts/12 = 6.8pts per boy inside. So those 12 boyz actually cost 12.8 a pop not 6. And at such low numbers you won't benefit as much from Mob rule and you won't get the +1 attack for 20+ models. So for 9pts a pop I can again deliver 5-15 Kommandos anywhere on the table, guaranteed, on any turn I want. They also come with 2 Free Burnas. And THAT is why Kommandos are better then Trukk Boyz by a metric Fethload.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .
Oh I'm not saying boyz are bad. I'm saying Orks should have more troops options. Right now every game vs orks is fight against 1000+ points of boyz + stuff that buffs boyz. Which gets boring after a while. The Ork starter pack right now pretty much is 7 packs of boyz + 1 start collecting + 3-6 weirdboyz + warleader.
Gretchins will probably get an ability that makes them more useful outside of combat.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
Any toughness 2 model with a laspistol and 7+ armor should be 2 points, if not 1.
I'd like cheaper Grots and I'd love more options for them. Something I've found is effective is using them as retreating wall of bubble-wrap, moving them out of combat for a rounds of shooting.
I'm not a huge fan of the Boy meta, ideally I'd like to be using fewer models to cut down my session-time (moving/counting).
I've bought myself some Lootas recently, does anyone have any thoughts as to how they compare to fully-buffed (Badrukk+AmmoRuntz+DakkaDakka) Flash-Gitz?
And with the recent cost changes does anyone think Burna-Boyz have a place (As the Loota-kit has both), both as a unit and when used in Kommando units?
rvd1ofakind wrote: The main problem with boyz is that if you're not taking 30 per unit - you're doing it wrong. So every batallion is a huge investment troops wise.
I think with the mob up stratagem you are actually wrong on this, I can easily see doing 3x30 and 3x10 for use in mobbing up.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.
Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.
So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?
Any toughness 2 model with a laspistol and 7+ armor should be 2 points, if not 1.
I disagree, I just think other models should cost more. Wounds and board presence have value regardless for statline, 30 wounds taking up a ton of space for 30 points would be broken. Especially when orks have ways to buff their durability.
Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.
Gretchin should be 3-5 points per model, and then they should be buffed to make them viable at that price point. The game does not benefit from 2 points per wound infantry.
10 Gretchin are amazing if you want 2 battallions or a Brigade and you need the 6th troop choice without investing many points. 10 boyz are certainly better but IMHO saving 30 points in an ork list can be signficant. Some pieces of terrain can also hide completely those grots while only give some cover to the boyz.
They're also decent in dread mobs as cheap objective holders/screeners for mek gunz.
Weazel wrote: Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.
Most people just put a kannon on that backfield objective. I agree with what you say, but it would be nice if our second troop option was good for something else than just sitting on a backfield objective or fill up required troop slots. At the same time I definitely do not want to exchange my already cumbersome army of six-point models with an even more cumbersome army of 2 or 3 point models.
Weazel wrote: Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.
A single kannon, lobba or zzap gun is a 27 point unit, has a significant impact on the game and will hold objectives better since the crew men cannot be shot unless they are the closest unit. Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.
Weazel wrote: Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.
This right here is why we have arguably the worst overall codex in 7th and index in 8th (overall not the 1-2 power builds) Being complacent with crap doesn't help our army become better. On the contrary, it gives confirmation bias to GW rules writers if they ever read these forums. Grotz should serve a bigger purpose then being a cheap Slot filler or a 30pt objective holding tax unit. A price cut won't help them either, they need significantly better weapons/gear and rules. The fluff supports this to, and yet here we sit in 8th edition where the only time a unit is taken is as a tax unit or a throwaway 30pt rear objective holder.
I would love for Grots to be something like greenskin Termagants. M6" and T3. Some of the grots in the GW kit has what looks like a rifle or musket. Special rules could be made for these grot shootas. Assault 3 R24" S3 AP0?
Jidmah wrote: Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.
I've found them very useful bubble wrapping my army from Alpha Striking combat units.
Alpha Legion Berserkers can make a first turn charge quite reliably. There will be similar for Bangles and their 3D6 charge range from deep strike.
3 units of 10 grots are cheap and fill slots, and can really shield the force. Or be Jumped into the path of enemy combat units.
Weazel wrote: Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.
This right here is why we have arguably the worst overall codex in 7th and index in 8th (overall not the 1-2 power builds) Being complacent with crap doesn't help our army become better. On the contrary, it gives confirmation bias to GW rules writers if they ever read these forums. Grotz should serve a bigger purpose then being a cheap Slot filler or a 30pt objective holding tax unit. A price cut won't help them either, they need significantly better weapons/gear and rules. The fluff supports this to, and yet here we sit in 8th edition where the only time a unit is taken is as a tax unit or a throwaway 30pt rear objective holder.
Have you seen chaos daemons... Index chaos daemons (baring brimstones, DPs and exalted flamers) are slow-ish footslogging melee glass cannons(who don't even hit that hard). Who thought that was a good idea. Obviously nurgle is the exception, but even he's not doing so hot.
Orks have a ton of synergy by comparison(which is why they're doing pretty well in tournaments and actual chaos daemon armies aren't there at all)
Well Kannons and the like are not Troops to begin with. Also they tend to attract heavier firepower whereas the Gretchin will probably attract the same firepower that kills Boyz. I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.
Jidmah wrote: Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.
I've found them very useful bubble wrapping my army from Alpha Striking combat units.
Alpha Legion Berserkers can make a first turn charge quite reliably. There will be similar for Bangles and their 3D6 charge range from deep strike.
3 units of 10 grots are cheap and fill slots, and can really shield the force. Or be Jumped into the path of enemy combat units.
Unless you are pushing back your entire army by at least 3", the zerkers can still assault your gretchin, wipe them out in a single fight and then consolidate into your boyz.
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Weazel wrote: Well Kannons and the like are not Troops to begin with.
Mostly irrelevant, since objective secured will never matter. Anything within 3" of a gretchin unit can assault and kill it.
Also they tend to attract heavier firepower whereas the Gretchin will probably attract the same firepower that kills Boyz.
Still, if the kannon dies it leaves behind two gretchin that cannot be shot at all unless someone is actively moving toward them. Regular gretchin can just be shot dead by anyone.
I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.
Kind of fabricated scenario, don't you think? Either you field 6x 30 boyz or you don't bother fielding a brigade. If you only got 30-60 points left, replace some elite or fast attack choices and get more boyz.
It's also not like there is a ton of stuff to spend those 12 CP on, considering any army in that situation would already have 7 CP.
pismakron wrote: I would love for Grots to be something like greenskin Termagants. M6" and T3. Some of the grots in the GW kit has what looks like a rifle or musket. Special rules could be made for these grot shootas. Assault 3 R24" S3 AP0?
I like the idea of grot shootas - seems very fluffy for cowardly grots to stay well away from combat and shoot at a distance, like second-rate halfling snipers. But GW's kind of stuck with the current grot kit, which mostly has short-ranged pistol-type weapons. Tactically, how is a squishy cowardly short-ranged squad useful for anything bu meat-shields? Give them M12" and counts-as plasma guns?
What if you kept grots as they are, but gave any unit with 10 or less models the Take Cover ability, and keep the Dangerous In Large Numbers ability? That would make them tactically useful without having to change them much.
I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.
Kind of fabricated scenario, don't you think? Either you field 6x 30 boyz or you don't bother fielding a brigade. If you only got 30-60 points left, replace some elite or fast attack choices and get more boyz.
It's also not like there is a ton of stuff to spend those 12 CP on, considering any army in that situation would already have 7 CP.
Not entirely true. I've found out that 180 boyz green tides are not that effective, because they're too slow. 90-120 boyz plus 45-90 kommandos and/or 30/60 stormboyz are the way to go. In this scenario gretchin may fill up 1-2 troops slots without being wasted points. In my green tide brigade I always include a min units of gretchin to have 6 troops. If you don't bother with the brigade leave gretchin on the shelf though.
In green tides you also need objective holders since the boyz should always advance and if you don't own any mek gunz those gretchin can do that job. Artillery is certainly more efficient but the models cost a lot of money and not everyone are willing to buy them or scratch build their own artillery. Gretchin are sub-optimal but not useless.
If the gretchin are purely a fodder unit then they need a point decrease, but I'd like the option to have a smaller harassment force of grots with a tad more firepower.
ForgeWorld could fill in the void with a cheap-ish conversion set of scopes, heads and barrels for the gretchin, as they do with Kammandoz. Then tag it on as a 1-4pt wargear upgrade for X grots a Unit, or preferably as their own Elite Unit with couple of special abilities and loadouts (eavy-shoota team, scoped grot-blasta, etc). Ultimately if the rules are exist I think there's plenty of products you can kit-bash to make your own special grot, though I don't know GW will see it that way, if they're thinking about the concept at all.
I tried using gretchin in a unit of 30 by using da jump on them. With their shooting bonus (surprisingly dangerous in large numbers) they weren’t that bad. Jumped in, shot like marines thn died miserably.
Decreasing their point value would result in armies with 200+ grotz because of being the cheapest wounds on the table. Nobody wants that...
Blackie wrote: Not entirely true. I've found out that 180 boyz green tides are not that effective, because they're too slow. 90-120 boyz plus 45-90 kommandos and/or 30/60 stormboyz are the way to go. In this scenario gretchin may fill up 1-2 troops slots without being wasted points. In my green tide brigade I always include a min units of gretchin to have 6 troops. If you don't bother with the brigade leave gretchin on the shelf though.
Gretchin are always wasted points, but it's not worse than buying kombi-rokkits for your warboss or something like that...
In green tides you also need objective holders since the boyz should always advance and if you don't own any mek gunz those gretchin can do that job. Artillery is certainly more efficient but the models cost a lot of money and not everyone are willing to buy them or scratch build their own artillery. Gretchin are sub-optimal but not useless.
I just found bags with 4 cannons and 4 siege mortars from a line of US civil war toys for $10 per bag. They are slightly bigger than GW models, but when you stick some ork bits to them and paint them, they look way better than the original models.
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grnsknz wrote: I tried using gretchin in a unit of 30 by using da jump on them. With their shooting bonus (surprisingly dangerous in large numbers) they weren’t that bad. Jumped in, shot like marines thn died miserably.
They shooting is a lot less impressive than it sounds though. I jumped 30 of them at a unit of devs once (yes, I actually try units before declaring them useless ) and they killed one through shooting, none by assault, and next turn the devs fell back and the grots were obliterated by a scout squad and a tactical squad. Spending those 90 points on boyz and just jumping 12 boyz+BC nob would have done much more. Just infiltrating some kommandoz and charging with them would have killed the devs for much less points and would have left da jump open for something else.
Decreasing their point value would result in armies with 200+ grotz because of being the cheapest wounds on the table. Nobody wants that...
I agree. Cheaper is not the way to go for gretchin, we don't need more brimstone or conscript incidents. They need to get stronger, or better - gain utility. Boyz are pretty much the maximum amount of power you can expect out of a horde troop choice, if gretchin had other uses but getting shot, that alone could make them viable.
Blackie wrote: Not entirely true. I've found out that 180 boyz green tides are not that effective, because they're too slow. 90-120 boyz plus 45-90 kommandos and/or 30/60 stormboyz are the way to go. In this scenario gretchin may fill up 1-2 troops slots without being wasted points. In my green tide brigade I always include a min units of gretchin to have 6 troops. If you don't bother with the brigade leave gretchin on the shelf though.
Gretchin are always wasted points, but it's not worse than buying kombi-rokkits for your warboss or something like that...
I played some games in terrains full of scenario, like ruined cities, and some objectives may end up out in a spot in which gretchin can hold them while staying completely hidden and mek gunz can't. In green tides mek gunz absorb all the anti tank and die quite easily, in fact I only play with 8-10 kannonz, no less, if I bring a green tide plus artillery, while gretchin are completely ignored and usually score some points. I also prefer artillery over them of course but I don't think gretchin are like kombi rokkits, they're more like kombi skorchas because IMHO kombi skorchas can be useful but being extremely overcosted they're a very suboptimal choice, just like gretchins.
In green tides you also need objective holders since the boyz should always advance and if you don't own any mek gunz those gretchin can do that job. Artillery is certainly more efficient but the models cost a lot of money and not everyone are willing to buy them or scratch build their own artillery. Gretchin are sub-optimal but not useless.
I just found bags with 4 cannons and 4 siege mortars from a line of US civil war toys for $10 per bag. They are slightly bigger than GW models, but when you stick some ork bits to them and paint them, they look way better than the original models.
Yeah conversions and good deals are a way to go with orks, I made 10 pieces of artillery for half the cost of a single mek gunz.
Lyceus wrote: I came up with this list afte4 reading alot through this forum. My aim is to win tournaments with it.
I can reduced the # of drops to a minimum of 6 if needed. Everything is embarked.
I am trying to run a quite similar list, and after 2 games with it I would say:
- Drop the battlewagon
- I did not find that starting second is such a terrible thing. You set up your KFF (+ possibly painboy) protection perfectly in the beginning, but after 1-2 turns it is usually messed up. Movement, terrain, mistakes, etc. So turn 1 is the time when you can dodge the most of the shooting. Of course, starting and moving the whole bubble-wrapped horde forward is even better, I'm just saying that number of drops is not that big of an issue if you can spare some points (I presume the battlewagon was there to fit the 6 weirboys in it and get out turn 1).
- I would add 1-2 units of cheap kommandos for turn 3 objective grabbing or any other flexible roles
I still feel a bit bad about smite spamming as I don't feel this way really orky, but that definetely works quite OK.
If you place weirdboys inside boyz blobs for the psi bonus at this amount you should consider also running a painboy to save some peril woulds and add an extra save layer to the KFF on boyz (5+ is not that special, but an 5+ then 6+ worth 60something points in case of 90+ boyz)
grnsknz wrote: I tried using gretchin in a unit of 30 by using da jump on them. With their shooting bonus (surprisingly dangerous in large numbers) they weren’t that bad. Jumped in, shot like marines thn died miserably.
I've done that and it worked out well. My opponent had several small units deepstriking looking for ways to pick my army apart. One of his units was isolated to one side of the board but would have been trouble in his next turn. I popped 30 grot over and killed 2 of the 3 of them 5 us saved wounds, they were two wound models. The lone survivor was easily cooked by burna boys after that. It's a reasonable "tactic". (If I had chosen the first spot I had been looking at to place them they would have been eaten by a dreadnought.) Those grots took zero casualties that game and gained an objective. I'm thinking of a way to do that again but using the mob up stratagem. I can see putting up to 60 grots in a list for the points. I'm also tempted to see if there's a way to block enemy reserves from their back field by blocking their board edge with jumping gorts. Who knows but for 90 to 120 points I think it would be worth it.
- I think going first is super important, if you reach an objective before the opponent you get the mission advantage and board control. Plus you might get in melee already first turn. Going second means you might get shot at twice.
- splitting storm boys will increase the # power claws but also you will need to take moral checks and might lose models because of that. Also you can not congaline 10 models to a painboy or the banner.
My weird boys will need to take care of big armour stuff.
- you da jump 30 boys infront of the enemy every psychic phase. I see how you can increase the pressure with kommandos but I don't see the need for it.
- artillery would be nice but since I don't have any other tanks then my transport I don't want to give my opponent any good targets for his anti tank weapons. I want him to force him to shoot my da jumped boys and then the protected storm boys with kff and pain boy.
Also I thought I want to keep the drops as low as possible.
I might be totally wrong since its just theory for me.
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
I definitelly think that's something that might happen in the ork codex. Because as good as boyz are now, they'll become even better with all the "fight again for 3 cp" and such stratagems.
Also right now grots are really bad for ITC missions. They're just free VPs for reaper and kill a unit.
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
I definitelly think that's something that might happen in the ork codex. Because as good as boyz are now, they'll become even better with all the "fight again for 3 cp" and such stratagems.
Also right now grots are really bad for ITC missions. They're just free VPs for reaper and kill a unit.
Will having one unit fighting a second time each turn really make them that much better? Granted that could be twice in a battle round but how many command points do you have that thre would be such a strong impact? I usually have 7 or 8 command points at best. When would you start using that kind ability at that price?
Blackie wrote: Not entirely true. I've found out that 180 boyz green tides are not that effective, because they're too slow. 90-120 boyz plus 45-90 kommandos and/or 30/60 stormboyz are the way to go. In this scenario gretchin may fill up 1-2 troops slots without being wasted points. In my green tide brigade I always include a min units of gretchin to have 6 troops. If you don't bother with the brigade leave gretchin on the shelf though.
Gretchin are always wasted points, but it's not worse than buying kombi-rokkits for your warboss or something like that...
I played some games in terrains full of scenario, like ruined cities, and some objectives may end up out in a spot in which gretchin can hold them while staying completely hidden and mek gunz can't. In green tides mek gunz absorb all the anti tank and die quite easily, in fact I only play with 8-10 kannonz, no less, if I bring a green tide plus artillery, while gretchin are completely ignored and usually score some points. I also prefer artillery over them of course but I don't think gretchin are like kombi rokkits, they're more like kombi skorchas because IMHO kombi skorchas can be useful but being extremely overcosted they're a very suboptimal choice, just like gretchins.
You might want to re-read the rules for the artillery units. The grot gunners are a separate unit from the cannon. Even if they have an emperor-class titan firing at the mek gun the grot gunners simply cannot be shot unless that 5000 point titan moves his bane-blade sized ass across the battlefield to shoot those two gretchin.
In addition, the grot gunners only need to be within 3" to use the gun. You can deploy a big gun or mek gun on the bottom level of a ruin, the first grot gunner on the first level and the second one on the top level. A mek gun can even hold two objectives at once, since it has five grot gunners.
There is literally no scenario where gretchin would be able to hold an objective that grot gunners cannot hold.
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Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Making the only good unit of the codex worse, is not going to make others better. If you make boyz bad enough, at some point gretchin will become the better troops choice and replace them entirely - everyone will be taking min grot squads as troop tax and then fill up on kommandoz and stormboyz.
Runtherd+Gretchin need to be able to do something that boyz cannot do, currently that's not the case.
I looked up the ork faction popularity. From what i could find in old dakka polls orks were the 4th most collected faction in 2010 and 2014. Orks has been a prominent part of 40k since rouge trader. Why were we not among the first to recieve a codex? Has popularity and ork miniature sales dropped? or do they not have any rules designers interested in orks anymore? Both financially and gamewise I don't see why subfactions like blood angels or grey knights get codexes before they tackle the core factions... are orks even a core faction any more?
I know this might be the wrong place to ask, but we need that codex! This thread has been reduced to "spam boyz", it feels like even after chapter approved the real usefull tactical options with orks are too few.
Gitdakka wrote: I looked up the ork faction popularity. From what i could find in old dakka polls orks were the 4th most collected faction in 2010 and 2014. Orks has been a prominent part of 40k since rouge trader. Why were we not among the first to recieve a codex? Has popularity and ork miniature sales dropped? or do they not have any rules designers interested in orks anymore? Both financially and gamewise I don't see why subfactions like blood angels or grey knights get codexes before they tackle the core factions... are orks even a core faction any more?
We had the first codex last edition and that didn't end well. Be glad GW is establishing the power level norms before throwing us out there and then turning the power levels of other armies up. They did that last edition. Not as fun as it sounds.
Zomnivore wrote: I think if grots get a kill an ork unit in 9 inches should get D6 extra attacks
At first I laughed, but I actually really like this idea. It's fluffy that the boyz don't want to be put to shame by a bunch of grots, it's a nice little buff that would make me want to take some grots, but they wouldn't become required, and it would take some nice positioning and a little luck to pull off.
Letting grots somehow take bullets for the boyz they are next to sounds good, maybe on a 4+ the enemy unit's shooting target is changed to the grots if they are at least 3" from the boyz being shot, this would help elites/mobs get some blast wounds and still help with screening/small fire/sitting on points; have to rework how ammo runts work and reduce the unit size a bit... (make grot mek gun crews get this rule too!)
Zomnivore wrote: I think if grots get a kill an ork unit in 9 inches should get D6 extra attacks
There are 2 ways this could go: it could be a very interesting addition to the ork rules that requires some positioning and maybe a little risk to pull off, or it could never get used because the payoff isn’t worth the addition of grots to our army. I like the idea though. What if killa kans could buff Deff dreads somewhat similarly, and Grot tanks could do something with ork vehicles too? Not sure if it should work with big guns/Mek guns.
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Remember what I said earlier? Here's another example.
"Ork boyz are playable, so to help with internal balance we should nerf them!"
Or...and here's a thought, instead of neutering the only good thing in our army, we instead buff some of the crap units to make them playable. Maybe give lootas 2D3 shots or make transports worth taking?
Stop trying to nerf one of the weakest armies in the game!
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Remember what I said earlier? Here's another example.
"Ork boyz are playable, so to help with internal balance we should nerf them!"
Or...and here's a thought, instead of neutering the only good thing in our army, we instead buff some of the crap units to make them playable. Maybe give lootas 2D3 shots or make transports worth taking?
Stop trying to nerf one of the weakest armies in the game!
Would you pay 7 points for Ork boyz if they had a 5+ Save?
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Remember what I said earlier? Here's another example.
"Ork boyz are playable, so to help with internal balance we should nerf them!"
Or...and here's a thought, instead of neutering the only good thing in our army, we instead buff some of the crap units to make them playable. Maybe give lootas 2D3 shots or make transports worth taking?
Stop trying to nerf one of the weakest armies in the game!
Would you pay 7 points for Ork boyz if they had a 5+ Save?
No.
If you took 60 wounds on turn 1 before you even started (which almost all non-ork armies can do) you would lose 10 less with armor. If you started with 840 points of boyz ( 140 6 pointers or 120 7 pointers) you would get to use 80 7s or 90 6s after alpha. By turn 2 you would have 40 of each, and would have zero by turn three. The only difference would be the 10 extra sixers on turn one. Cheaper is better.
You might want to re-read the rules for the artillery units. The grot gunners are a separate unit from the cannon. Even if they have an emperor-class titan firing at the mek gun the grot gunners simply cannot be shot unless that 5000 point titan moves his bane-blade sized ass across the battlefield to shoot those two gretchin.
In addition, the grot gunners only need to be within 3" to use the gun. You can deploy a big gun or mek gun on the bottom level of a ruin, the first grot gunner on the first level and the second one on the top level. A mek gun can even hold two objectives at once, since it has five grot gunners.
There is literally no scenario where gretchin would be able to hold an objective that grot gunners cannot hold.
Of course I know that, but if the artillery dies, you'll only have 2-5 grots that cannot even shoot. And in green tides all the anti tank goes against artillery deleting every piece of it very easily, unless you have tons of them. Then a deep striking assault squad can fire a few crappy shots towards the surviving grot gunners deleting them all. 10 invisible gretchins require a full anti infantry unit to shoot at them to be removed. I use mek gunz, KMKs usually, pretty much in every game I play (big gunz only sometimes), I love them and I'm aware of their usefulness but in a green tide I'd only take a huge amount of kannonz. But sometimes they die turn 1 and the surviving gunners are worse than a unit of gretchin.
A unit of gretchin competes with boyz, if they get shot several boyz survive. Artillery soaks the anti tank and when some gunz dies a single dude can wipe out the gunners. Deepstriking assault units can also wipe out the artillery and the gunners very easily and usually artillery attracts some deep strikers. 10 gretchin can be ignored for the entire game instead.
I know they're a suboptimal choice compared to the artillery in holding objectives, but I think sometimes they may be more useful.
If you took 60 wounds on turn 1 before you even started (which almost all non-ork armies can do) you would lose 10 less with armor. If you started with 840 points of boyz ( 140 6 pointers or 120 7 pointers) you would get to use 80 7s or 90 6s after alpha. By turn 2 you would have 40 of each, and would have zero by turn three. The only difference would be the 10 extra sixers on turn one. Cheaper is better.
What would you pay for ard'boyz? I mean, regular boyz with a 4+ Save? Eight points? Nine?
- splitting storm boys will increase the # power claws but also you will need to take moral checks and might lose models because of that. Also you can not congaline 10 models to a painboy or the banner.
You should have a mob of 30 boyz nearby that makes stormboyz fearless. After turn 1 you may have a teleported mob anyway.
The banner and the painboyz don't work like a KFF, you just need a single member of the unit that is within 3'' to give the bonus to the entire squad.
Hey All! First post here, I've been a long time stalker but finally plucked up the courage to register an account and contribute to the discussion. Believe it or not I've read every one of the 118 pages prior which seems a bit crazy now I write it down.
OK so I run a fluffy Evil Sunz list. It's not great but I enjoy it and I'm committed to playing a fluffy list over a powerful one. That said I'd enjoy my games a lot more if some of the tools I have at my disposal were a bit better. I'll probably post my thoughts/wishlisting on that at a later point.
I had to jump in the topic re Boyz' cost; their points surely can't go up?! Why are some of us suggesting GW nerf our own faction lol?
Ard Boyz in my opinion should be a Stratagem upgrade for a Boyz squad (perhaps linked to Bad Moonz?). Pay 1 - 3 CP to upgrade 1 - 3 squads of Boyz I reckon.
Gretchin need a function, as has been said already. They could function as our Snipers but I really, really, REALLY like the idea of them somehow impacting on the enemies' capacity to fall back from combat and/or as a buffing unit for Boyz.
I would also love it if we were able to use Kommandos or Tank Bustas to somehow impact on the ability of vehicles to fall back from combat.
I feel that currently Orks are very boring and lack much variety or tactical nuance. I'm not just talking about Boyz spam and our less points-efficient options. I feel like we should have Kunnin' abilities or weapons that enable us to affect the enemies' movement, saves (invulnerable and otherwise), psychic abilities and/or deployment options. I mean we have the least number of units able to deepstrike and outflank if I'm not mistaken? There is so much history and unique flavour to Orks that GW will hopefully tap into. Where are the crazy random effects from SAG? Why can't I turn someone into a Squig (at great risk to oneself of course)?! I'm quietly hopeful that GW will give us unique and powerful abilities that come at great risk, as it should be.
If you took 60 wounds on turn 1 before you even started (which almost all non-ork armies can do) you would lose 10 less with armor. If you started with 840 points of boyz ( 140 6 pointers or 120 7 pointers) you would get to use 80 7s or 90 6s after alpha. By turn 2 you would have 40 of each, and would have zero by turn three. The only difference would be the 10 extra sixers on turn one. Cheaper is better.
What would you pay for ard'boyz? I mean, regular boyz with a 4+ Save? Eight points? Nine?
9 is too much. That would make the 'ardboyz just as survivable, per point, as soft boyz, assuming 60 wounds per turn. Both units get wiped out at the same time. The problem with "equal survivability" in this example is that during all that time, you get less offensive output from the smaller units of 9ers. Same defense...less offense.
Imagine taking boyz with a 1++ save that even works against mortal wounds (i.e., they can never die.) how much are they worth? An infinite amount? No...just lack of dying is not much of a virtue (with the very real exception of objective camping!)
At 8 points per 'ard boy, you still have a few left when all the 6ers are gone, so they can start to make up some of that offensive output deficit that the 6ers put up in turns 1 & 2.
Of course, this analysis is mathhammer at its worst, and assumes a whole lot that's not really true. But lack of offensive output (per point) is a real problem, as orks are costed for defense and close combat which is so easy to avoid in 8th.
ETA:
To add to that, costing for defense in this game is very bad. Defense, in itself, is great! Who wouldn't want a better chance to live? But offense carries with it an automatic defense: After you use your offense, the enemy has less ability to hit you next turn...more of you survive.
So a point of offensive capability gives you a free fraction of a point of defense.
A point of defense gives you nothing for offense. A meganob is no better at killing than a nob, but a choppa boy (in combat) is much more likely to survive a protracted battle than a shoota boy.
Sadly, orks are so ridiculously overcosted on offense we really can't compete, and that's index vs index. The exception being choppa boyz...but the rules of the game so disfavor combat we are doubly screwed (slow movement, multiple overwatch, free retreat [new word: Freetreat...])
I am afraid that our codex won't be enough. If we get the same percentage boost that the other armies get with their codexes, it will be in defensive capability, which is fundamentally inferior to offense in this game. We fall further behind.
Write GW!
One more thing...
Defensive capability used to be better balanced in this game because of two factors: there was less shooting, and defensive units could lock offensive ones in combat for most of the game.
GW has conveniently removed those two strengths of defensive play from 8th. I do not think they realized how much this unbalanced the game, and favored alpha strike armies. I kind of doubt they have figured it out even now.
Again, for us, this is bad, as "slow and tough" used to be a thing. Now "slow and tough" just means "don't bother playing."
Honestly, 9 points for an 'Ard Boy seems right on. 8 points would feel like an auto take.
I'd probably still auto take them at 10 points, at 11 I'd even still consider it on small squads. 4+ is soo nice this edition on t4 models. If 'Ard Boyz came back I wouldn't be surprised if it was only 5+ at 9 points.
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Remember what I said earlier? Here's another example.
"Ork boyz are playable, so to help with internal balance we should nerf them!"
Or...and here's a thought, instead of neutering the only good thing in our army, we instead buff some of the crap units to make them playable. Maybe give lootas 2D3 shots or make transports worth taking?
Stop trying to nerf one of the weakest armies in the game!
Nora wrote: Raising the cost for boyz by 1 point would make Grots as well as everything else more considerable. It would also make the codex more balanced.
Remember what I said earlier? Here's another example.
"Ork boyz are playable, so to help with internal balance we should nerf them!"
Or...and here's a thought, instead of neutering the only good thing in our army, we instead buff some of the crap units to make them playable. Maybe give lootas 2D3 shots or make transports worth taking?
Stop trying to nerf one of the weakest armies in the game!
Results wise, it's was the 4th best army IN THE GAME in october. You can't argue with results...
The video itself has no information other than "orks are great again" thrown out with no lists or discussion of what makes them good. It refers to top ITC list on bloodofkittens... What were those lists even?
As it stands, the only really solid units we have right now are pretty much boys, stormboys and weirdboys. Everything else is overcosted or is too squishy and requires overcosted transports to function or has little utility and thus should be converted into moar boys. I've tried running many varied fun army lists that did not rely on boy spam (so 60-90 boys) vs other non-mono, non-tourney guard, necron and GK lists and everytime it felt like an uphill battle.
I'd rather see other units in the codex get beefed up to properly compete with boys, because if you nerf boys, then you nerf only viable thing our index has. Hopefully not by price drops but rather by bump of quality and performance. We already have to use ridiculous ammounts of models.
I'm not saying "all orks units are good". Far from it. I'm just saying that calling orks "weakest", when the results say the complete opposite, is silly.
And yeah, every list is boyz, stormboyz, weirdboyz, etc
Blackie wrote: Of course I know that, but if the artillery dies, you'll only have 2-5 grots that cannot even shoot.
if you field a unit of gretchin on a backfield you have 10 gretchin that also cannot shoot, but can be shot instead. And you payed 3 points more for those.
And in green tides all the anti tank goes against artillery deleting every piece of it very easily, unless you have tons of them.
If you go first, the cannon is going to shoot at least once, making it better than all the shooting a grot unit will ever be able to do.
Then a deep striking assault squad can fire a few crappy shots towards the surviving grot gunners deleting them all. 10 invisible gretchins require a full anti infantry unit to shoot at them to be removed.
Even the deep striking assault squad can only shoot the gunners if they are the closest unit, which means that they can kill no more than one unit of grot gunners per turn. It also means than it's usually impossible to shoot them while trying to assault another unit, which most deep strikers want to do.
And if the unit is not an assault squad (no one uses those), but is equipped with anything even slighly more dangerous than bolters, it will kill the entire unit anyways. Or - the more likely scenario in my experience - something like a heavy stubber, rhino bolter, big shoota or similarly important weapon on some vehicle will simply kill them because they are in range. No need to waste a deep striking unit on them.
I use mek gunz, KMKs usually, pretty much in every game I play (big gunz only sometimes), I love them and I'm aware of their usefulness but in a green tide I'd only take a huge amount of kannonz. But sometimes they die turn 1 and the surviving gunners are worse than a unit of gretchin.
They are cheaper, harder to kill and only have the illusion of actually being able to shoot over a unit of gretchin. How is that worse?
A unit of gretchin competes with boyz, if they get shot several boyz survive. Artillery soaks the anti tank and when some gunz dies a single dude can wipe out the gunners. Deepstriking assault units can also wipe out the artillery and the gunners very easily and usually artillery attracts some deep strikers. 10 gretchin can be ignored for the entire game instead.
Getting ignored because the unit doesn't do jack is not a quality. The single dude that tries to kill grot gunners will still be doing that for at least one turn per kannon, and he costs probably a lot more than all those gretchin combined.
In addition, if you have enough kannons, enemy anti-tank is not guaranteed to wipe them out in one turn. Some armies actually don't field the guy with the burning sword of everything-hits, so lascannons actually miss, fail to wound or roll bad damage at times. Mortarion/Magnus lists are usually light on anti-tank providing you with plenty of time to shoot your artillery.
Especially in maelstrom missions, killing gretchin off an objective is not necessarily a bad thing. Especially for the missions which require you to hold an objective for two turns, gretchin are killed way to easily.
I know they're a suboptimal choice compared to the artillery in holding objectives, but I think sometimes they may be more useful.
And yet, they never are. Anything that kills big gunz will also kill gretchin. The only difference are those 10 grot blasters that might actually kill an opponent or two, however that is massively inferior to the ability of not getting shot unless closest and bringing the kannon in the first place.
Gretchin are not doing nothing when you field them - just like that kombi-rokkit I mentioned. However, without rose-tinted glasses they will never be a better option than boyz or kannons.
Therefore, whenever you could use gretchin, change your list to avoid that - it will be better that way.
If you took 60 wounds on turn 1 before you even started (which almost all non-ork armies can do) you would lose 10 less with armor. If you started with 840 points of boyz ( 140 6 pointers or 120 7 pointers) you would get to use 80 7s or 90 6s after alpha. By turn 2 you would have 40 of each, and would have zero by turn three. The only difference would be the 10 extra sixers on turn one. Cheaper is better.
What would you pay for ard'boyz? I mean, regular boyz with a 4+ Save? Eight points? Nine?
The thing with 'ard boyz is that either 'ard boyz or non-'ard boyz are better, with little middle ground. It has been that way in all previous edition, though before our last codex the number of 'ard boy units was limited.
I think the best solution would actually be having 'ard boyz cost one CP or two before the battle starts.
If I had to put a point value on them... any more than 8 would be too expensive. Keep in mind that nobz are currently 21 for 3 wounds with 2 of the wounds protected by 4+ armor, and they struggle to survive already. Hard to justify 24 for 3 wounds with a 4+ save.
8-9 points is probably about right, but not because of the Nob comparison (three 4+ boyz is more durable than a Nob + Runt Nobz suffer from multiple damage weapons and one of their wounds is only a 6+ save, and those boyz have 9-12 attacks vs 5 attacks), but more compared to other boyz.
IF we look at 6 boyz (36 points) 6 NO ap wounds kill 5 on average or 30 points.
At 8 points (48) 6 no AP wounds, kill 3 or 24 points
At 9 points (54) 6 no AP wounds kill 3 or 27 points.
So if the idea is that they are more durable per point than regular boyz they need to be less than 10 points.
Offensively 6 point boyz pay 1.5-2 points per attack (assuming choppas)
8 Point ard boyz would pay 2-2.67
9 point would pay 2.25-3.
So if we look at a full mob of 30 ork boyz (180 pts) they get 120 attacks
at 8 points, 180 points would be 22 orks (176 points) - 88 attacks
at 9 points it would be 20 orks (180 points) or 80 attacks.
So you are right that 8 seems like the best value as you give up a lot of offense (32 attacks) for a decent durability bump.
I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
Nuck Fewton wrote: I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
I dunno, because you like the game and like to win?
Do you really think that it is rule-abuse, when a player uses the pile-in or consolidate moves to enter combat without declaring a charge?
Nuck Fewton wrote: I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
This is the competitive thread. Stuff like "I don't use this unit because he's boring" and "using the best units is lame" belong elsewhere.
Here you should have the mindset of "Why am I taking this unit? Can't I take something else that does the same-ish job better? If so - the current unit shouldn't be taken, as the intention is to win". Obviously this isn't always the case as even the most competitive players take random fun stuff as a guilty pleasure type of thing. But condemning people for taking what's good and using optimal tactics is not what you should be doing in this thread.
Not talking from experience but I have watched several Ork battle reports on youtube and they seem to be more playable than people in here are letting on. They didnt win every battle sure, but most were real close calls if they lost
Nuck Fewton wrote: I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
This is the competitive thread. Stuff like "I don't use this unit because he's boring" and "using the best units is lame" belong elsewhere.
Here you should have the mindset of "Why am I taking this unit? Can't I take something else that does the same-ish job better? If so - the current unit shouldn't be taken, as the intention is to win". Obviously this isn't always the case as even the most competitive players take random fun stuff as a guilty pleasure type of thing. But condemning people for taking what's good and using optimal tactics is not what you should be doing in this thread.
But to be fair, the topic of "what's our best units?" has been done to death.
From what I can see the answer to that question is; Boyz, Trukk Weirdboyz, Kommando, Stormboyz and Mek Gunz in that order?
How are our weaker units and where are they useful? Not all of us have 120 Boyz and even if we did, we wouldn't want to use them.
Tactics is as much about getting the most out of less efficient units as it is using the "best" units.
I've found minimum squads of Warbikers to be a useful annoyance. For some reason the opponent either ignores them or dedicates way too much firepower to deal with them. I think it might be a legacy from last edition and the fact that they have such great movement they can get around the board to claim objectives. Anyone else had similar experiences?
Well I'm new on this thread so I haven't done the "what's best" talk to death :p
Also, as long as units fill somewhat different roles - they can be a niche units, which are also fine. However there are plenty strictly worse units that fill the same roles. And it's not like those should be discarded completelly. "How this unit could become viable" is useful for future pts/rules changes.
And seemingly, the best way to make certain units viable is to make other, currently viable units more expensive? Surely not. Boyz are fine where they are. Let's not suggest nerfing one of our best performing units.
An Actual Englishman wrote: And seemingly, the best way to make certain units viable is to make other, currently viable units more expensive? Surely not. Boyz are fine where they are. Let's not suggest nerfing one of our best performing units.
Rule number #1 on how to seem credible when asking for points drops - suggest point increases on your most powerful units along with the points drops
An Actual Englishman wrote: And seemingly, the best way to make certain units viable is to make other, currently viable units more expensive? Surely not. Boyz are fine where they are. Let's not suggest nerfing one of our best performing units.
Rule number #1 on how to seem credible when asking for points drops - suggest point increases on your most powerful units along with the points drops
That's how we ended up with 12pt rokkitz and 27pt warbikes.
Nuck Fewton wrote: I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
This is the competitive thread. Stuff like "I don't use this unit because he's boring" and "using the best units is lame" belong elsewhere.
Here you should have the mindset of "Why am I taking this unit? Can't I take something else that does the same-ish job better? If so - the current unit shouldn't be taken, as the intention is to win". Obviously this isn't always the case as even the most competitive players take random fun stuff as a guilty pleasure type of thing. But condemning people for taking what's good and using optimal tactics is not what you should be doing in this thread.
But to be fair, the topic of "what's our best units?" has been done to death.
From what I can see the answer to that question is; Boyz, Trukk Weirdboyz, Kommando, Stormboyz and Mek Gunz in that order?
How are our weaker units and where are they useful? Not all of us have 120 Boyz and even if we did, we wouldn't want to use them.
Tactics is as much about getting the most out of less efficient units as it is using the "best" units.
I've found minimum squads of Warbikers to be a useful annoyance. For some reason the opponent either ignores them or dedicates way too much firepower to deal with them. I think it might be a legacy from last edition and the fact that they have such great movement they can get around the board to claim objectives. Anyone else had similar experiences?
I like this idea to open up the tactics discussion to be more more than just optimizing points.
I use a unit of 3 bikers with no upgrades and the can do some nice screening. If they are left untouched they can charge tanks and stop them from Shooting or grab occasional objectives.
Gitdakka wrote: I like this idea to open up the tactics discussion to be more more than just optimizing points.
I use a unit of 3 bikers with no upgrades and the can do some nice screening. If they are left untouched they can charge tanks and stop them from Shooting or grab occasional objectives.
Yea I've found them to be surprisingly useful, their dakka output is also decent considering. I also use mine to try and catch characters out of position where possible but it's not always feasible.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Rule number #1 on how to seem credible when asking for points drops - suggest point increases on your most powerful units along with the points drops
I disagree and I feel like you imply that us asking for point reductions or improvements in under performing units is somehow not credible. If Boyz' points are increased, they become virtually useless. They aren't great now; unless taken in squads of 30, with other characters buffing/teleporting them and spammed so much that they can't be picked apart piecemeal. Not exactly an ideal choice and if the opponent knows how to play against them they will focus 11 out of each squad. Their flaws are compounded further and made much more obvious when taken in Trukks, or Battlewagons. They really don't need a nerf.
A tactic I use is min squads of stormboys. I like to fly them out in front just to bottle up the opponent's movement phase. Just hope you don't get the killpoint mission...
how about they would bring back the old 3rd edition gretchin rules?
living shield every time a boy unit is shot "through" a gretchin unit and suffers a wound, on a 5+ a gretchin is killed instead...
mine clearance gotta love those ol' days... where you could clear a minefield by sending in the gretchin... "If a Grot mob moves on to a minefield marker remove 3D6 grots and the minefield"
better footing if a boy mob is in the same difficult terrain piece as gretchin, they reroll the dice to see how far they can move (didnt work for meganobz though... well for obvious reasons)
while better footing and mine clearance are obsolete in 8th the living shield rule would be a viable option
rvd1ofakind wrote: Rule number #1 on how to seem credible when asking for points drops - suggest point increases on your most powerful units along with the points drops
I disagree and I feel like you imply that us asking for point reductions or improvements in under performing units is somehow not credible. If Boyz' points are increased, they become virtually useless. They aren't great now; unless taken in squads of 30, with other characters buffing/teleporting them and spammed so much that they can't be picked apart piecemeal. Not exactly an ideal choice and if the opponent knows how to play against them they will focus 11 out of each squad. Their flaws are compounded further and made much more obvious when taken in Trukks, or Battlewagons. They really don't need a nerf.
Well I've seen it work in practice quite a few times. Every post with just asking for buffs is met with "omg, you're a powergamer, you just want your army to be the best". When I include "x and y shuold be nerfed as they are autoincludes" people take you way more seriously. I actually turned a hater into um... not a hater I guess... by saying this. His response: "Oh I thought you were just a powergames, but you actually want the game to be balanced and to make tough decisions when making lists"
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well I've seen it work in practice quite a few times. Every post with just asking for buffs is met with "omg, you're a powergamer, you just want your army to be the best". When I include "x and y shuold be nerfed as they are autoincludes" people take you way more seriously. I actually turned a hater into um... not a hater I guess... by saying this. His response: "Oh I thought you were just a powergames, but you actually want the game to be balanced and to make tough decisions when making lists"
I understand where you're coming from but you're in an ork tactica thread here, you don't need to worry about other users claiming you're 'a power gamer who just wants his army to be the best'. From what I gather your 'main army' is admech anyways?
We all play Orks and know their issues better than most (I assume). Our issue isn't that Boyz are just so damn good they are auto include, our issue is that many of the other units in our index can't perform their intended function as well as/as points efficiently as Boyz so Boyz become auto include. Suggesting our core troop has a points increase is tactical suicide. Our other units need to get better/gain utility/become more efficient to compete in the codex.
Aren't Bloodletters 7 ppm with a 5++, 2" faster movement and ability to be summoned? I'm not convinced green tide, ere we go and a slugga makes up for that.
Its not other Dakka Dakka members we need to convince either - it's GW.
RedNoak wrote: how about they would bring back the old 3rd edition gretchin rules?
living shield every time a boy unit is shot "through" a gretchin unit and suffers a wound, on a 5+ a gretchin is killed instead...
mine clearance gotta love those ol' days... where you could clear a minefield by sending in the gretchin...
"If a Grot mob moves on to a minefield marker remove 3D6 grots and the minefield"
better footing if a boy mob is in the same difficult terrain piece as gretchin, they reroll the dice to see how far they can move (didnt work for meganobz though... well for obvious reasons)
while better footing and mine clearance are obsolete in 8th the living shield rule would be a viable option
Love this idea too, perhaps "better footing" could allow a Boyz unit charging through grots to get to their target to add 2 to the charge roll? Or a similar thing with advancing?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well I've seen it work in practice quite a few times. Every post with just asking for buffs is met with "omg, you're a powergamer, you just want your army to be the best". When I include "x and y shuold be nerfed as they are autoincludes" people take you way more seriously. I actually turned a hater into um... not a hater I guess... by saying this. His response: "Oh I thought you were just a powergames, but you actually want the game to be balanced and to make tough decisions when making lists"
I understand where you're coming from but you're in an ork tactica thread here, you don't need to worry about other users claiming you're 'a power gamer who just wants his army to be the best'. From what I gather your 'main army' is admech anyways?
We all play Orks and know their issues better than most (I assume). Our issue isn't that Boyz are just so damn good they are auto include, our issue is that many of the other units in our index can't perform their intended function as well as/as points efficiently as Boyz so Boyz become auto include. Suggesting our core troop has a points increase is tactical suicide. Our other units need to get better/gain utility/become more efficient to compete in the codex.
Aren't Bloodletters 7 ppm with a 5++, 2" faster movement and ability to be summoned? I'm not convinced green tide, ere we go and a slugga makes up for that.
Its not other Dakka Dakka members we need to convince either - it's GW.
Dude, bloodletters aren't better than Boyz. At all. squishy(toughness 3), slow(6'' with +1'' on advance for the instrument), morale issues, more expensive, etc
They are all or nothing. You summon them(a risk and you have to prepare for that by a character in the middle), you roll the charge and if you don't roll 9'' - you just wasted 150-220 points for something 30-75 points of brimstones would've done better. There's a reason they're not seeing much competitive play despite doing good damage.
And I don't really have a main army. I got 4k pts of admech and about 9k pts of daemons. Orks are where I'm most lacking atm(as I started a few days ago) but I'm working on remedying that I'll post my spreadsheet here after I'm done on it. Right now I'm doing Ork damage and WOW they have a lot of choices. Uff.
About the points drops and increases - obviously most things need a pts drop. It's a tradeoff: make all our garbage units(20+) viable and you can make our 1-2 OP units less good.
living shield every time a boy unit is shot "through" a gretchin unit and suffers a wound, on a 5+ a gretchin is killed instead...
Whilst I'd love to see the rule come back, from an actual power perspective it still wouldn't be very good. You're essentially paying 3 ppm for a 5+ save that doesn't work in CC. A KFF that just protects 1 Boyz mob does the same thing and costs 2.5ppm. Plus Grots out in front block charge rolls on the Boyz and without a nearby Runtherd (pushing the price up even more) they'll be running from morale extremely quickly.
Living Shield would protect against Mortal Wounds, which does give it something of a niche I suppose. Now if Grots were 2ppm, then things get a bit different.
Cuz05 wrote: Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.
Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.
I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine
I use a unit of 3 bikers with no upgrades and the can do some nice screening. If they are left untouched they can charge tanks and stop them from Shooting or grab occasional objectives.
Have you tried skorcha buggies for the same role? At 54 points each they don't look that bad. They can't screen as well as the bikes since they're a single model compared to three and they may suffer from multiwounds anti tank more than bikes but they're significantly cheaper and capable of a comparable amount of damage, even with the shorter range.
About boring but competitive green tides: this is the competitive thread, ok, but playing the green tide is not only boring, it something that requires almost zero skills and tactics. IMHO there's no reason to discuss about a green tide for 100+ pages, what is really interesting is to make viable all the other units. Trying to make them competitive or at least viable is certainly more interesting and useful than giving the same suggestions about the green tide and IMHO it also fits the concept of the "competitive thread".
Of course the ork index in utterly unbalanced but sharing personal experience about different lists and how they perform (even if they fail miserably) and the synergies between units reflects the theme of the thread.
Cuz05 wrote: Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.
Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.
I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine
Boyz are very good only in huge numbers so they are far from being OP. What makes them competitive is the synergy with buffing characters and an entire list focussed on them.
Nuck Fewton wrote: I assume he means just mob stuff and spread out to pull other units into combat.
I realize this is the competitive thread but spamming a few useful units and having a mono list build might win you games, but if it's boring, why even play the game?
I dunno, because you like the game and like to win?
Do you really think that it is rule-abuse, when a player uses the pile-in or consolidate moves to enter combat without declaring a charge?
I don't, I was just using his words.
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Cuz05 wrote: Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.
Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads.
I don't understand the jump for kill tanks, I'd argue they weren't even good, just fun. Maybe they're trying to make the "big" stuff very high so it's only used in Apoc games?
Cuz05 wrote: Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.
Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.
I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine
Without any additional buffs or anything else? Strictly in a vacuum? Hell tactical marines are better.
10 marines (Sgt and heavy Bolter) cost 140pts. That's equivalent to 20 with a Nob/BC or thereabouts.
Turn 1: 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Orkz, heavy bolted = 3 shots 2 hits and 1.33 dead Orkz.
Orkz turn: move, advance, do nothing
Turn 2: (marines are now within 12 inches and get to fire pistols AND bolters unless this changed) 27 (rapid fire and pistols) shots 18hits 9 wounds 7-8 dead Orkz. Heavy bolted kills another 1.3 make it 9 total to be fair. Morale test on Orkz, -9 morale only 7 Orkz left, role a 3 and you are down to 2 models.
Orkz turn: move 5 (7inch charge) shoot pistols 2 shots likely no casualties. Charge, overwatch. 27 shots, 4 hits and that is the end of the Ork boyz.
