Shrapnelbait wrote: I have a question regarding Kommando loadout. It seems that Kommandos are being used as an extra boyz mob that can drop in unexpectedly then charge. If this is the case is there a good reason to equip them with burnas (other than it's free). You land out of range for the burnas so won't get to shoot with them before you charge. Should the Nob be armed with anything other than a choppa?
I'd recommend 5- Orks a unit, free burnas and an ordinary choppa for the nob. The problem is that kommandos cannot take shootas. If they could, sticking them in cover with twin big shootas would probably be a useful option. As is they are kitted out for close-combat, which means that their cover save is difficult to use. When charging from cover you get a -2 to the rolled distance.
malcontent999 wrote: I've been kicking around the idea of a walker wall for a while now, and I think this would be pretty fun. Who knows? It might even be semi-competative after we get a codex. Care to comment?
The Morkas would protect clusters of Kans, and one of the Meks would protect the Gorka and another kan cluster. The other Meks would zip around providing repairs and force field where needed. If I got around to building something like this, the Mek conversions would have to be based on sentinels so everything could be a walker.
I actually took a list very similar to this to a 2000 point tournament recently. It did extremely badly; in fact, I was tabled every game.
Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, 2 Dreads, 6 Kans, Meka-Dread, Battlewagon, Big Mek on Warbike with KFF.
The idea is that you advance forwards, spraying a few shots in whilst the fast stuff (Mek, Battlewagon, Meka-Dread) comes up a flank. Everything stays under a KFF as they close in.
The problem? It simply doesn't work. My Nauts were focused down first turn every game. A 5++ save simply can't save you from focused Lascannon fire, or anything else that cares to glance your way. Often times I was losing Dreads not to Lascannons and Krak Missiles, but to Heavy Bolters. Shooting is non-existent; my Morkanaut caused more wounds on itself over the day than it did to the enemy. First mission of the day I went against 8 Penitant Engines; I had nothing left bottom of Turn 2. Even when you do make it into melee, your damage isn't that impressive. In Game 3 a lone vanilla Baneblade accounted for my Morkanaut, my Gorkanaut, 2 Deff Dreads and my Meka-Dread; the Nauts it killed by shooting, one dread and a Meka were killed trying to charge it (5+ Overwatch hurts) and the last Dread it ran over (hitting on 2+ with 9 Powerfist attacks turns out to be brutal).
These weren't WAAC lists I was fighting either; I didn't see a single Primarch on my boards all day. They were pretty much all fairly fluffy, casual lists that you'd fully expect to see in a FLGS. Hell the last guy I fought was Dark Eldar and the vast majority of his army could only wound me on 6's. He still tabled me by Turn 4.
Two weeks before I took the same list to another tournament and lost every game there too. I've been playing Orks since 2007, I know how to play the army and I can win with an infantry focused list no problem. But the Dread Mob doesn't work, it's really that simple.
So my advice is that if you really want to do the army because you love the theme and models, go for it. But don't expect it to be competitive. Because it really isn't.
I maintain that kanz, deff dreadz, and naughts do not belong on the table together. They might all look like stompy walkers, but they do not all roll the same.
The best way to make an ork list right now is to pick one toughness and keep it. T7 and T8 play very different, t4/5 and 7 play very different.
T8- Naughts, Wagonz with 'Ardcase. If you choose T8 models then these two units should be the bulk with nothing other then a few disposable purpose built passenger (suicidebustas) and maybe a KFF mek (KFF morka should be KFF in t8)
Yep, just optional nob shoulder pads, which makes sense now,a s they are 4+ default. I have a bunch...was saving mine for 'ard boyz, but since those unexist I'm just waiting to use them.
Dr.Duck wrote: Saw that nids are getting a specific carnifex unit entry (screamer killer) will be interesting if same happens with other dexes.
Off topic bit does any1 know where these bits go? They look like tabards or something but not really.
They look like the orky shoulder pads on the Nobz kit.
Ones on the bottom right hand corner, there are 4 of them. They are thinner than the normal pads and also dont have the peg to slot into the hole in the shoulder. I origonally figured they were tabards or Ork seals or something but the curve is throwing me off. Not a bid deal, just really stumped about what they are interned to go on.
Dr.Duck wrote: Saw that nids are getting a specific carnifex unit entry (screamer killer) will be interesting if same happens with other dexes.
Off topic bit does any1 know where these bits go? They look like tabards or something but not really.
They look like the orky shoulder pads on the Nobz kit.
Ones on the bottom right hand corner, there are 4 of them. They are thinner than the normal pads and also dont have the peg to slot into the hole in the shoulder. I origonally figured they were tabards or Ork seals or something but the curve is throwing me off. Not a bid deal, just really stumped about what they are interned to go on.
Dr.Duck wrote: Saw that nids are getting a specific carnifex unit entry (screamer killer) will be interesting if same happens with other dexes.
Off topic bit does any1 know where these bits go? They look like tabards or something but not really.
They look like the orky shoulder pads on the Nobz kit.
Ones on the bottom right hand corner, there are 4 of them. They are thinner than the normal pads and also dont have the peg to slot into the hole in the shoulder. I origonally figured they were tabards or Ork seals or something but the curve is throwing me off. Not a bid deal, just really stumped about what they are interned to go on.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I have a question regarding Kommando loadout. It seems that Kommandos are being used as an extra boyz mob that can drop in unexpectedly then charge. If this is the case is there a good reason to equip them with burnas (other than it's free). You land out of range for the burnas so won't get to shoot with them before you charge. Should the Nob be armed with anything other than a choppa?
I did not try but saw in competitive ork lists that they run kommandos in minimum loadout (5 boy, free burna, maybe not even a nob), that is around 45 points or so, and run at least 3 of these. Their purpose in this setup is solely to grab objectives, even like waiting for a turn 3 deployment. That might be a good strategy for multi objective games.
One other tactics question - objective placement
I often find that placing objectives in my own deployment zone is a waste. Usually the whole army rolls forward (I don't really play big gunz or lootaz), so I usually place them even close to mid table where my army supposedly will be at the end of the game. However, that works on paper, but I rarely managed to grab extra VP-s like that.
As dr duck said those shoulder pads go between regulars pads, behind the nobz neck. Their purpose is to make the nob look more armored.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shrapnelbait wrote: I have a question regarding Kommando loadout. It seems that Kommandos are being used as an extra boyz mob that can drop in unexpectedly then charge. If this is the case is there a good reason to equip them with burnas (other than it's free). You land out of range for the burnas so won't get to shoot with them before you charge. Should the Nob be armed with anything other than a choppa?
Min squads of 45 points, take all the free upgrades you can. So basically 2 regular kommandos, 2 kommandos with burnas and a nob with slugga & choppa. Their role is to harass, tarpit or to sit on a lone objective. I sometimes deployed them on the table just to screen my units against nasty deepstriking enemy units, forcing them to arrive far from where they wanted to land or in another less appropriate spot.
Bigger squads could work but you have to build some tactics around them. I've only tried 2-4 min squads in this edition.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I have a question regarding Kommando loadout. It seems that Kommandos are being used as an extra boyz mob that can drop in unexpectedly then charge. If this is the case is there a good reason to equip them with burnas (other than it's free). You land out of range for the burnas so won't get to shoot with them before you charge. Should the Nob be armed with anything other than a choppa?
I'd recommend 5- Orks a unit, free burnas and an ordinary choppa for the nob. The problem is that kommandos cannot take shootas. If they could, sticking them in cover with twin big shootas would probably be a useful option. As is they are kitted out for close-combat, which means that their cover save is difficult to use. When charging from cover you get a -2 to the rolled distance.
I have mine as a 5 man unit with 2 big shootas. This makes them very flexible as I can infiltrate them on objectives both far back and far forward. With 36"range they can harass infantry in both cases. Them not having shootas has never been a problem for me, the nob can already take one or a kombi weapon and the other two shootas would not make a real difference. With big shoota load out the +2cover becomes easy to use. Sure burnas would be free but I think misses the big picture to think of this as the only option. 2 big shootas are 12 points, it's still a bargain.
If points are not considered, then burnas would be what I consider the least usefull special weapon on kommandos. This because poor synergy with burna range, deep strike, and cover bonus.
I would even say the rokkits can be good. This makes a cheap throw away unit like kommandos more of a target priority, and then they can dish out pain at range with some luck. I just prefer tankbustas in trukks for that role.
Just thought of a bizarre alternative to Nobz in Truks...Runtherds! They cost the same as big choppa Nobz and get a free grot prod (s6 vs s7..no biggie usually). They have 4 wounds instead of 2, but worse armor.
Best part about it is the entire trukkful are characters, so no targeting, or at least you force your opponent to split fire amongst each of the individuals. Also 48 wounds total per trukk.
One other potential advantage is that each runtherd can throw a grenade (they are separate units.) About twice as effective at very close range than pistols, against GEQ anyway.
And the unit can split 12 ways to grab objectives. Just don't play killpoints...:(
ETA: Also, super cheap way to fill out elite slots. 3 runtherds + weirdboy is 140.
The trukk can visit objectives, dropping off non-targetable runtherd "eggs" that have to be collected the hard way. Even a sniper can't shoot more than one runtherd at a time (correct me if I'm wrong on that.)
Imagine clearing a few non-targetable 4-wound orks with a decent cc weapon from a needed objective.Once are trukks get their point drop this might be a very annoying strategy!
Shrapnelbait wrote: It seems that Kommandos are being used as an extra boyz mob that can drop in unexpectedly then charge. If this is the case is there a good reason to equip them with burnas (other than it's free). You land out of range for the burnas so won't get to shoot with them before you charge.
You lose x1 pistol shot by choosing the burna. However, unlike true burna boyz, the burna does not replace the choppa. This means that you get the same number of attacks in melee, but two of the attacks become -2 AP (from the burna being used in melee). That sounds like a good exchange for an inaccurate pistol.
Caveat: post based on the Index list. This might change based on the codex.
Gitdakka wrote: Them not having shootas has never been a problem for me, the nob can already take one or a kombi weapon and the other two shootas would not make a real difference.
I maybe misunderstood you, but Kommandos' Boss Nob can't replace his slugga for Shooty or Souped-up Weapons, only choppa for another thing from Choppy Weapons list.
JimOnMars wrote: Just thought of a bizarre alternative to Nobz in Truks...Runtherds! They cost the same as big choppa Nobz and get a free grot prod (s6 vs s7..no biggie usually). They have 4 wounds instead of 2, but worse armor.
Best part about it is the entire trukkful are characters, so no targeting, or at least you force your opponent to split fire amongst each of the individuals. Also 48 wounds total per trukk.
One other potential advantage is that each runtherd can throw a grenade (they are separate units.) About twice as effective at very close range than pistols, against GEQ anyway.
And the unit can split 12 ways to grab objectives. Just don't play killpoints...:(
ETA: Also, super cheap way to fill out elite slots. 3 runtherds + weirdboy is 140.
That's hilarious! So insane it might actually work!
Grot prod is just 1 damage though. So, not exactly a big choppa. But this guyz can definitely be used to fill free spaces in transports for relatively cheap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: they won't wreck vehicles but can be much more effective vs 1-wound infantry cause it's very jard to kill a whole runtherd suicide squad.
Runtherd are kind of interesting, they’re the same cost as a BC nob per model, and while their save isn’t as good they have twice as many wounds and character status. They’re almost too expensive to fulfill their nominal purpose as support for grots, but as characters on their own they could be interesting...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: Grot prod is just 1 damage though. So, not exactly a big choppa. But this guyz can definitely be used to fill free spaces in transports for relatively cheap.
The problem is that many units you want to transport can get ammo runts or other expendable things to fill transport capacity.
Gitdakka wrote: Them not having shootas has never been a problem for me, the nob can already take one or a kombi weapon and the other two shootas would not make a real difference.
I maybe misunderstood you, but Kommandos' Boss Nob can't replace his slugga for Shooty or Souped-up Weapons, only choppa for another thing from Choppy Weapons list.
I see. No you understood me right. It was I, who misunderstood the Kommando nob wargear options. Weird that they disallow shooty gear for the nob.
well my point still stands though. two big shootas infiltrating in cover is good for 57 points. The fact that the remaining 2 orks and nob has pistols instead of shootas does not invalidate that option.
Lots of talks of orks being not competitive/ too expensive, but is there a risk that some unites will get nerfed with new codex? Candidates would be the boyz, weirdbiyz and maby the Mob Rule?
Nora wrote: Lots of talks of orks being not competitive/ too expensive, but is there a risk that some unites will get nerfed with new codex? Candidates would be the boyz, weirdbiyz and maby the Mob Rule?
Seeing what other codexes have received recently I'd say there is zero chance of any nerfs for Orks. Yet to play my first game with my Orks but based on battle reports and forum discussions I don't think there is anything remotely overpowered in the Index. If they somehow rework Ork shooting (unlikely) and/or make Shootas assault 3 or otherwise better there's a chance of them becoming +1pt but that's it probably. Just because the successful Ork lists run a lot of Boyz doesn't mean Boyz are OP, they are just the least crappy choice there is.
Some lists that involve characters from different clans are gona be 'nerfed'. Not because they'll be worse than they're now. They'll be worse than mono-clan lists.
Agree. The chance of lists having to decide between Grotznik or Thrakka is pretty high. Then again, you could just buy a supreme command detachment of weirdboyz and your favourite off-clan characters like CSM and DG do.
Glitcha wrote: I know we talk a lot about list building, but does anyone have any good strategies?
My current favorite is bomaz and kommandos. Use the bomba to clear a hole for the kommando's to show up where that unit was.
I learned the hard way not to try to flank with my Kanz. They just don't have the speed, and never made it into the fight so they were a waste of points. Straight up the middle from here on.
Glitcha wrote: I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.
It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.
10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.
I mean 10 dice can only inflict 10 mortal wounds. I get that wording is important in most cases. They are the same for this.
I was talking about using 3 bombers and bombing the same squad. Each would generate 10 dice. That's how I was getting 30.
malcontent999 wrote: I've been kicking around the idea of a walker wall for a while now, and I think this would be pretty fun. Who knows? It might even be semi-competative after we get a codex. Care to comment?
The Morkas would protect clusters of Kans, and one of the Meks would protect the Gorka and another kan cluster. The other Meks would zip around providing repairs and force field where needed. If I got around to building something like this, the Mek conversions would have to be based on sentinels so everything could be a walker.
I actually took a list very similar to this to a 2000 point tournament recently. It did extremely badly; in fact, I was tabled every game.
Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, 2 Dreads, 6 Kans, Meka-Dread, Battlewagon, Big Mek on Warbike with KFF.
The idea is that you advance forwards, spraying a few shots in whilst the fast stuff (Mek, Battlewagon, Meka-Dread) comes up a flank. Everything stays under a KFF as they close in.
The problem? It simply doesn't work. My Nauts were focused down first turn every game. A 5++ save simply can't save you from focused Lascannon fire, or anything else that cares to glance your way. Often times I was losing Dreads not to Lascannons and Krak Missiles, but to Heavy Bolters. Shooting is non-existent; my Morkanaut caused more wounds on itself over the day than it did to the enemy. First mission of the day I went against 8 Penitant Engines; I had nothing left bottom of Turn 2. Even when you do make it into melee, your damage isn't that impressive. In Game 3 a lone vanilla Baneblade accounted for my Morkanaut, my Gorkanaut, 2 Deff Dreads and my Meka-Dread; the Nauts it killed by shooting, one dread and a Meka were killed trying to charge it (5+ Overwatch hurts) and the last Dread it ran over (hitting on 2+ with 9 Powerfist attacks turns out to be brutal).
These weren't WAAC lists I was fighting either; I didn't see a single Primarch on my boards all day. They were pretty much all fairly fluffy, casual lists that you'd fully expect to see in a FLGS. Hell the last guy I fought was Dark Eldar and the vast majority of his army could only wound me on 6's. He still tabled me by Turn 4.
Two weeks before I took the same list to another tournament and lost every game there too. I've been playing Orks since 2007, I know how to play the army and I can win with an infantry focused list no problem. But the Dread Mob doesn't work, it's really that simple.
So my advice is that if you really want to do the army because you love the theme and models, go for it. But don't expect it to be competitive. Because it really isn't.
This is very surprising. I find that mixing the mork/gork into heavy ork boy lists is extremely strong. The opponent has a choice but often times they can't kill it before he makes combat. They have always made their points back in games I played. I once swept a 7 strong termie squad with the slash attack on a gorkanaut. Some unlucky rolls for my opponent but still.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is it currently that causes Orks to not be able to hit at all? I can't seem to find both rules that end up being -2.
Azhday wrote: Anyone tried taking down flyers with Kopta's melee weapons?
No...I don't think they get nearly enough attacks. Assuming the default weapon, that's 4 s5 attacks, probably landing 2 1/2 of them, and maybe getting 1 wound. Killsaws might get 2 wounds, but cost way, way too much. You'd need 500 points of deffkoptas to take out 1 200 point flyer.
That wouldn't likely happen anyway because anyone who sees you field a deffkopta one knows you've spend 5% of your entire army one one fragile model. They would just plink them off the board en route to an easy tabling.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: How is Deff Dread Mob style Orks doing? I know green tide is the current meta, but buying that many Orks sounds terrible
Actually pure green tides are among the cheapest options with orks. You can buy a lot of used boyz by ebay for dirt cheap. Time for painting all the miniatures is the real issue.
Dread mobz are way more expensive, unless you scratch build all the walkers.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: How is Deff Dread Mob style Orks doing? I know green tide is the current meta, but buying that many Orks sounds terrible
Actually pure green tides are among the cheapest options with orks. You can buy a lot of used boyz by ebay for dirt cheap. Time for painting all the miniatures is the real issue.
Dread mobz are way more expensive, unless you scratch build all the walkers.
I don't know, I've searched ebay several times looking for deals for orks. Maybe it's because I live in Canada, but by the time you add $15-25 in shipping, all the ebay prices are pretty much exactly the same price you would pay if you bought it in the store. Usually they are pre-assembled, so that would save you some time assembling them, but then you miss out on options for building and bits.
Many times the price starts out being less than store bought, but by the time the bidding ends (usually at the last minute) its as much or more than if you bought new.
Many times the price starts out being less than store bought, but by the time the bidding ends (usually at the last minute) its as much or more than if you bought new.
That's because we are all bidding against each other!
I think the best is to look for deals in local wargamer FB groups if there are any in your city. But getting the big-big green tide is always a long run.
To change the subject a bit, what does everyone like for dealing with pesky long-range units that park themselves in the enemy deployment zone? I've had some success with lootas using a truck as basically a bunker, but short of da Jumping in a big Boyz mob it's tough to get at the really dangerous parts of an enemy gunline. A decently screened heavy weapons squad or devastator squad can do a lot of damage without having to worry about deep-striking or infiltrating units too much.
It's a pain to watch the wounds get peeled off the big stuff by heavy weapons that you can't get at, and "bring a KFF and just wade through enemy fire" only goes so far. I was thinking of using aircraft, but I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks about this.
Air craft (burna bommer and dakka jet) only work if your target is an infantry units, as both fail to do any meaningful damage to vehicles with T6 or more. So for hellblasters, devs, snipers and the like they are a decent solution.
The only thing that had mediocre success at destroying backfield vehicles has been a blob of 15 lootaz, always using CP to re-roll '1' for shots. Once they start doing that the tend to die pretty fast though.
Kannons or Zzap guns might also work, but I'm currently lacking models to field more than 4, so no actual experience here.
Lootas in trukks: I also tried this and found it quite efficient, however:
- too much points - 10 lootas and trukk with a big dhoota is 252points.
- that makes it one of the best shooting ork vehicles, but it shouldn't move. It only camps one objective in the deployment zone that makes it a primary target anyway.
- in my games they were usually instantly shot to bitz by flyers or trukk shot, lootas charged in the same turn
- cannot fire overwatch from the trukk
- in my gaming group everyone remember lootas being pretty dangerous from 7th so they were shot dead in turn 1-2.
Now I am thinking about running several small squads of 5-6 lootas instead.
office_waaagh wrote: To change the subject a bit, what does everyone like for dealing with pesky long-range units that park themselves in the enemy deployment zone? I've had some success with lootas using a truck as basically a bunker, but short of da Jumping in a big Boyz mob it's tough to get at the really dangerous parts of an enemy gunline. A decently screened heavy weapons squad or devastator squad can do a lot of damage without having to worry about deep-striking or infiltrating units too much.
It's a pain to watch the wounds get peeled off the big stuff by heavy weapons that you can't get at, and "bring a KFF and just wade through enemy fire" only goes so far. I was thinking of using aircraft, but I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks about this.
The best solution by far is to use footslogging boyz. Some them will move and grab objectives, the rest will advance towards your enemies deployment zone. Using shootas is not a bad option.
Always remember to play with objectives that score every turn.
Every other option we have access to has significant disadvantages:
1)Lootas are far too fragile on foot, and if placed in a bunker they are too expensive.
2) Kannons are not bad, but they are not good either. You need 15 kannon-shots to kill a rhino. They are far less fragile than lootas, but they will still fold like wet paper when targeted. Zapp guns are like Kannons, but slightly better against walkers, terminators and bikes, and slightly worse against anything T8.
3) Kustom Mega Cannons are better than Big Gunz, but they are still not great. To have any real impact you need at least six of them which will cost you more than 150£ which is insane.
4) The Shokk Attack Gun is totally useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another idea might be a squad of 5-6 kommandos with rokkits. Take 10-12 squads.
pismakron wrote: 2) Kannons are not bad, but they are not good either. You need 15 kannon-shots to kill a rhino. They are far less fragile than lootas, but they will still fold like wet paper when targeted. Zapp guns are like Kannons, but slightly better against walkers, terminators and bikes, and slightly worse against anything T8.
3) Kustom Mega Cannons are better than Big Gunz, but they are still not great. To have any real impact you need at least six of them which will cost you more than 150£ which is insane.
I disagree on those two. Both kannons and Zzap guns are quite a chore to kill for most enemies I have faced. Units that enter your backfield like terminators, flyiers, bikes or other flanking stuff can usually only kill one or two kannons per turn due to the natural limitations on how many units you can shot and charge, when long range weapons like lascannons start killing your 27 point big gunz... I guess that's pretty much like spending 27 point to prevent them from shooting for a turn or two.
The KMK, on the other hand is a much more valuable target, killed just as easily by backfield units and you have less of them. In addition -1 to hit is handed out like candy to everyone, so it will overheat as often as it hits.
Another idea might be a squad of 5-6 kommandos with rokkits. Take 10-12 squads.
Buggies are strictly better for 3 points more per two rokkits. And they aren't stellar either.
3) Kustom Mega Cannons are better than Big Gunz, but they are still not great. To have any real impact you need at least six of them which will cost you more than 150£ which is insane.
Can I recommend chopping up a Trukk kit? You can get 3 Gunz that way with a pile of gubbins left over, and getting a few pieces of junk to finish the job off is pretty straightforward. I got a bag of 30 spark plugs from my mechanic for free; he was just throwing them away.
Sluggaloo wrote: Sorry for going off-topic but I am so going to steal your idea. Those are amazing! Just truck parts and spark plugs you say?
No problem, glad to help. You need to cut a few pieces with a hobby saw and do some pinning, but yep, with just spark plugs and a single trukk kit you can replicate that build. I used a piece of electrical wire and some little pieces of plasticard tube to do the wires, but they're optional.
I did another build ages ago which used airhoze nozzles and rifle bullet casings to make Kannons.
Spoiler:
You can honestly use just about anything once you get the chassis built; I did Zzap guns just using microphone jacks.
In the mean time how do I get the best use out of it?
Try and get into melee with it. Don't bother to fire anything except the Rokkits and Big Shootas, and Advance every turn until you can charge. Basically you're treating it like a less killy Gorkanaut.
Also don't be fooled by the KFF; it does not provide much in the way of protection. Take it since you may as well, but don't be surprised when your Morka disappears turn 1 even with a KFF attached.
What's the best way to deal with backfield enemies? Kommandos.
What's the best way to field Kommandos? 15 with free Nob/BC and 2 burnas
Why are big shootas a bad idea for Kommandos? For a similar price you could do MSU lootas
My competitive list which has been doing very well for me is based on fielding 90 Kommandos in 6 units. I've been thinking about trying out even more and fielding MSU grot units to fill in the gaps. Why are Kommandos so good? They ignore our enemies best and our worst phase....the shooting phase. My opponent has to guess where I'm going to have a giant army magically appear turn 1-3. Better then that, they arrive at full strength. Augment that by adding in 30 boyz and a weirdboy with "Da Jump" and you have 120 models in your enemies face turn 1.
MSU Kommandos doesn't work because they are too squishy and have no punching power, you are essentially handing your opponent first blood.
SemperMortis wrote: What's the best way to deal with backfield enemies? Kommandos.
What's the best way to field Kommandos? 15 with free Nob/BC and 2 burnas
Why are big shootas a bad idea for Kommandos? For a similar price you could do MSU lootas
My competitive list which has been doing very well for me is based on fielding 90 Kommandos in 6 units. I've been thinking about trying out even more and fielding MSU grot units to fill in the gaps. Why are Kommandos so good? They ignore our enemies best and our worst phase....the shooting phase. My opponent has to guess where I'm going to have a giant army magically appear turn 1-3. Better then that, they arrive at full strength. Augment that by adding in 30 boyz and a weirdboy with "Da Jump" and you have 120 models in your enemies face turn 1.
MSU Kommandos doesn't work because they are too squishy and have no punching power, you are essentially handing your opponent first blood.
I disagree slightly. The best Kommando loadout is 5 with free Nob and 2 Burnas. For the same price as your 15-Kommando blob, I can take three times as many Burnas and three times as many Nobz - Though only one Nob gets a BC. This also lets me try and charge three times, which is a nice buff when trying to tie up enemy artillery so that it can't shoot back at me next turn.
Sure, if you're taking six units, you probably don't have the extra drops or detachments to break that up into 18 units, but the more you MSU, the more you get free Burnas and free extra wounds from the Nobz.
Matthew wrote: Are trukkboys useful nowadays? What else can I put in a Trukk to make it worth its points?
Sadly no. 12 boyz aren't enough to justify the 76 point trukk. For just +24 points, you can upgrade boyz to stormboyz, and for +36 points you can upgrade them to kommandos. With the inability to get out of the trukk after it moves, and it's vulnerability to just about everything (it is NOT more durable than before even with 10 wounds because of high-damage weapons) there is just no way to justify it.
Far better are kommandos who have a very good chance to make their charge anywhere on turn 1. Not even a solid gold (or red) trukk helps you there.
Since our shooting has been basically eviscerated, there is nothing in our codex that you can put in a trukk to make it worth it. Currently, if a unit like that existed, it would have to have negative points.
I disagree slightly. The best Kommando loadout is 5 with free Nob and 2 Burnas. For the same price as your 15-Kommando blob, I can take three times as many Burnas and three times as many Nobz - Though only one Nob gets a BC. This also lets me try and charge three times, which is a nice buff when trying to tie up enemy artillery so that it can't shoot back at me next turn.
Sure, if you're taking six units, you probably don't have the extra drops or detachments to break that up into 18 units, but the more you MSU, the more you get free Burnas and free extra wounds from the Nobz.
Sure, but in order to start 18 units of Kommandos in reserve you need 18 units of whatever to drop on the board.
MSU kommandos are meant to be distractions or to sit on lonesome objectives.
Large groups of kommandos work only in lists like SemperMortis' one, with tons of them. Basically another way to play the green tide.
Trukk boyz are not worthy because trukks cost as much as the unit embarked. Trukks can be decent transports for tankbustas and nobz. If meganobz, burnaboyz and flash gitz were better they could be useful to carry them too.
Since nobz have no meaningful shooting, it's better to put them into T8 battlewagons with another unit of 10 or some characters.
Currently I'm also experimenting with battlewagons that have two units of 10 boyz with a PK nob each. Since you basically never get the bonus for 20 boyz in bw boyz, there is no downside to just fielding two units.
On the upside you have two troop units towards your battalion and another nob and lower chance to fail your charge completely.
Despite being less efficient than BC, I put PKs on them since the most expensive part is always the battlewagon - I can easily afford the PKs but not another BW.
Trukk boyz are not worthy because trukks cost as much as the unit embarked. Trukks can be decent transports for tankbustas and nobz. If meganobz, burnaboyz and flash gitz were better they could be useful to carry them too.
I think this is pretty much true. Transports are worth it if they are carrying about twice its own cost in points. Like a rhino with marines.
A more expensive transport can be tolerated if its has some damage output of its own, like a deff-rolla or a Squig.
So for trukk boyz to work, the trukk really needs either more capacity or a nerf to make it less expensive. I would love to see a trukk with W8 and T5 at 40 points, including a big shoota. That would make our two trransports more varied, rather than the battlewagon essentially being a slightly improved version of two trukks.
Played 3 casual games vs an Imperial Fist army this weekend. We played a 1000 pts game, a 2000 pts and another 1000 pts. He had basically a mix of: 3 assault cannon razorbacks, 2 whirlwinds, inceptors, scouts, devastators, centurions devastators, 1 dreadnought, 2 dudes that grant rerolls, assault terminators, Lysander, a stormraven, tac squad, etc.
Game #1 (1000 pts):
My list: 30 choppas, 30 shootas, 10 nobz w/ runts, 2 weirdboyz, Zhadsnark, 5 kommandos, 10 grots, 1 painboy
Went second, lost 50% of my stuff to shooting (in the first few turns), Jumped once a big mob, fought a bit, died. Conceded before my turn 4, I had 2 hidden nobz on objectives remaining.
Game #2 (2000 pts):
My list: 6x 12 boyz w/ PK nob in trukk, 4x KMK, 3x min bike squad, 3x min kommando squad, Zhadsnark, 2x KFF bikermek
Went second, lost all my KMK on first turn but not a single trukk, made multiple charges (he had scouts, termies and Lysander in range, wasn't his best move), fought a lot, engaged as much as possible his razorbacks, etc. He conceded after turn 2. I had the relic and was locking in combat more and more stuff every turn.
Game #3 (1000 pts):
My list: 2x 5 nobz w/ runts and a warboss in a wagon, 5 tankbustas and 13 shootas in an OT wagon w/ big shootas, 1 kannon, 1 KFF bikermek
Went first, moved forward, eventually charged with the nobz, we had a good fight, shooty wagon was doing shooty stuff and was ready to jump in the fight. He conceded after turn 3, I was way ahead in objectives, and also a bit on the battlefield.
Random thoughts:
- First time I used weirdboyz in 8th. Sometimes I wouldn't try a spell cause I would almost instantly perils. Also the more units you Jump the less "cover" you have for your weirdboyz. For a 1000 pts game, 2 weirdboyz and a painboy to heal them is too much IMO. But I'm sure I didn't use them well. Having 60+ models around them wasn't optimal, I guess.
- Didn't really like the big 30 boyz squads. I'm more of a trukk boyz guy.
- I liked my 6 trukks list. Trukks protected by KFF and with multiple targets, they are pretty tough. Of course it was just one game. If trukks and PKs get cheaper trukk boyz spam will be dangerous! Not sure if 3 pts wrecking ball. If you're not hitting, no point in having +1S -1AP...
- I liked the PKs in my 6 trukks list. One thing to keep in mind in the endless debate between BC and PK: BC generally hits and wounds on 3+, while PK hits on 4+ and wounds on 2+. That 2+ to wound is a prime target for a CP reroll if you get a 1.
- You really need power stabbas against SM.
- Min squads of bike are nice, shooty, fast, you can pile in/consolidate into other targets pretty easily with their long bases.
- Wasn't too impressed with kommandos, the fact that I missed my 3 charges in game 2 probably didn't help. Will try them again.
Played 3 casual games vs an Imperial Fist army this weekend. We played a 1000 pts game, a 2000 pts and another 1000 pts. He had basically a mix of: 3 assault cannon razorbacks, 2 whirlwinds, inceptors, scouts, devastators, centurions devastators, 1 dreadnought, 2 dudes that grant rerolls, assault terminators, Lysander, a stormraven, tac squad, etc.
Game #1 (1000 pts):
My list: 30 choppas, 30 shootas, 10 nobz w/ runts, 2 weirdboyz, Zhadsnark, 5 kommandos, 10 grots, 1 painboy
Went second, lost 50% of my stuff to shooting (in the first few turns), Jumped once a big mob, fought a bit, died. Conceded before my turn 4, I had 2 hidden nobz on objectives remaining.
Game #2 (2000 pts):
My list: 6x 12 boyz w/ PK nob in trukk, 4x KMK, 3x min bike squad, 3x min kommando squad, Zhadsnark, 2x KFF bikermek
Went second, lost all my KMK on first turn but not a single trukk, made multiple charges (he had scouts, termies and Lysander in range, wasn't his best move), fought a lot, engaged as much as possible his razorbacks, etc. He conceded after turn 2. I had the relic and was locking in combat more and more stuff every turn.
Game #3 (1000 pts):
My list: 2x 5 nobz w/ runts and a warboss in a wagon, 5 tankbustas and 13 shootas in an OT wagon w/ big shootas, 1 kannon, 1 KFF bikermek
Went first, moved forward, eventually charged with the nobz, we had a good fight, shooty wagon was doing shooty stuff and was ready to jump in the fight. He conceded after turn 3, I was way ahead in objectives, and also a bit on the battlefield.
Random thoughts:
- First time I used weirdboyz in 8th. Sometimes I wouldn't try a spell cause I would almost instantly perils. Also the more units you Jump the less "cover" you have for your weirdboyz. For a 1000 pts game, 2 weirdboyz and a painboy to heal them is too much IMO. But I'm sure I didn't use them well. Having 60+ models around them wasn't optimal, I guess.
- Didn't really like the big 30 boyz squads. I'm more of a trukk boyz guy.
- I liked my 6 trukks list. Trukks protected by KFF and with multiple targets, they are pretty tough. Of course it was just one game. If trukks and PKs get cheaper trukk boyz spam will be dangerous! Not sure if 3 pts wrecking ball. If you're not hitting, no point in having +1S -1AP...
- I liked the PKs in my 6 trukks list. One thing to keep in mind in the endless debate between BC and PK: BC generally hits and wounds on 3+, while PK hits on 4+ and wounds on 2+. That 2+ to wound is a prime target for a CP reroll if you get a 1.
- You really need power stabbas against SM.
- Min squads of bike are nice, shooty, fast, you can pile in/consolidate into other targets pretty easily with their long bases.
- Wasn't too impressed with kommandos, the fact that I missed my 3 charges in game 2 probably didn't help. Will try them again.
I think this is a good demonstration of the old truism that orks do best when they focus on doing one or two things, ie never take one battlewagon or one-two trukks, take 2-3 battlewagons and fill them all with scary stuff or a ton of trukks. A trukk or two will probably melt on the first turn but bring six of them and a couple are bound to get through and do their jobs. Our real armour is target saturation.
I'm pleased to hear a bunch of MSU bike squads performed well for you, especially against an opposing list that seems to be no slouch. My preference is to take a horde of boyz and then fill out the rest of the army with either heavy armour or fast stuff. Out of curiosity, did the kommandos that failed their charges at least absorb a decent amount of firepower that would otherwise have gone into your more valuable stuff? Even if they don't do anything else, if they draw enough fire to keep a trukk alive for a turn they've probably earned their points so to speak.
I notice that you dropped the weirdboyz after the first game, was your opponent not bringing psykers either?
office_waaagh wrote: I think this is a good demonstration of the old truism that orks do best when they focus on doing one or two things, ie never take one battlewagon or one-two trukks, take 2-3 battlewagons and fill them all with scary stuff or a ton of trukks. A trukk or two will probably melt on the first turn but bring six of them and a couple are bound to get through and do their jobs. Our real armour is target saturation.
I'm pleased to hear a bunch of MSU bike squads performed well for you, especially against an opposing list that seems to be no slouch. My preference is to take a horde of boyz and then fill out the rest of the army with either heavy armour or fast stuff. Out of curiosity, did the kommandos that failed their charges at least absorb a decent amount of firepower that would otherwise have gone into your more valuable stuff? Even if they don't do anything else, if they draw enough fire to keep a trukk alive for a turn they've probably earned their points so to speak.
I notice that you dropped the weirdboyz after the first game, was your opponent not bringing psykers either?
I like the versatility of MSU bikes, not to say that they were awesome, but they can eat overwatch, engage a lot, grab objectives, etc. Don't expect much in close combat, tho, 3 bikers spent 2 turns fighting 5 scouts! I have to say his game #2 list wasn't as optimal as game #1, he tabled me in game #1 so he went a bit more casual on the second one. I will try MSU bikes again for sure. With mek gunz and trukks, that's a lot of T5-6 and 4+ saves.
For the kommandos, they died when he looked at them. I don't remember what shot them, but they didn't last long. One squad lost 2 boyz and 1 wound on the nob trying (and failing) to charge a whirlwind... Another squad got shot, charged and killed (after ~2 combat phases) by a techmarine... They unlocked a brigade detachment so they helped a bit, I guess. Speaking of which, a brigade detachment is pretty easy to get with single mek gunz, MSU bikes, MSU kommandos and trukk boyz!
So I found a small squad of Nob bikers anything I can do with them?
Just got 3 of em and a biker boss. Might get the kromlech biker painboy if its worth it.
I've got a generic biker boss,Zhadsnark or whats his name, 3 deff koptas and a blob of kommandos and I think like 15 stormboyz n Zagstruk to send with em.
I don't know if thats enough fast stuff to be effective yet, but at least now I have em.
How do people feel about the leaked price point changes?
Note that there has been no leaks for Orks yet, only space marines
Intercessors now cost only 5 points to upgrade (18 points in total) from tactical marines
Whereas we pay 13 points to upgrade from a Boy to a Nob (17 points in total)
For 5 points Marines get
+1 wound
+1 attack
-1 AP on ranged
+6" on ranged
For 13 Points Orks get
+1 Wound
+1 Attack
+1 Strength
And a comparison
Primaris 18pts
BS 3+
Strength 4
Attacks 2
Range 30"
AP -1
3+ Save
Nob 17pts
BS 5+
Strength 5
Attacks 3
Range 12"
4+ Save
I don't see us winning this arms race. We need to be ready to complain to gw, en masse, if our overcosted units are left high and dry while others get point drops.
I wouldn't take the current leaks too seriously. Pretty much anyone with half a brain can cook those up and look decent.
I do hope for massive point drops across the board though. We have the tools to take on both imperium and chaos, we just need to be able to afford them in sufficient numbers.
Yet to play my first game, but been figuring out lists from what I have (which not an extensive collection yet). After not much theory crafting I realized that unless running a green tide (120-150 boyz or even more) a KFF or several are more or less mandatory? I mean with mere t-shirts the boyz are just too damn fragile to survive any serious firepower. I killed 57 boyz w/ painboy from a single round of shooting of about 1300 points of Space Wolves. Space Wolves, imagine that! I was quickly dismayed by the idea of meeting a proper gunline of the Astra Militarum. Turn 1 tabling began to sink in as a very probable outcome.
I dislike KFFs as a mechanic and I would like to forego using them, but I don't think it is possible. What do you think?
Regarding resilience, Orks are mentioned in the fluff to feel very little pain if at all. Do you think a fluffwise justified universal 6+ FNP would make Orks overpowered or merely viable? I mean 6+ is nothing to write home about. A Painboy might boost it to 5+ FNP to make him worthwhile... Because at 6+ FNP he really isn't worth it outside of patching up Weirdboy brains.
How about building an ork army theemed around burning stuff? Like a pyromancy clan. Just maxing out as many skorchas and burnas as possible, thereby bypassing our poor ballistic skill. Since the short range of such weapons, the army would have to be fast.
options I think could work in such an army:
skorcha buggies
nobs with kombi skorchas (and or burna boyz) riding trukks or battlewagons
maybe the burna-bomber, dont know it's rules but it would probably match the theme.
kommandos with burnas.
probably some forge world units.
there is also some slower options like killa kans and deff dreads that could stock up on skorchas.
Would it be viable? and how could we tactically use such and army?
Weazel wrote: Yet to play my first game, but been figuring out lists from what I have (which not an extensive collection yet). After not much theory crafting I realized that unless running a green tide (120-150 boyz or even more) a KFF or several are more or less mandatory? I mean with mere t-shirts the boyz are just too damn fragile to survive any serious firepower. I killed 57 boyz w/ painboy from a single round of shooting of about 1300 points of Space Wolves. Space Wolves, imagine that! I was quickly dismayed by the idea of meeting a proper gunline of the Astra Militarum. Turn 1 tabling began to sink in as a very probable outcome.
I dislike KFFs as a mechanic and I would like to forego using them, but I don't think it is possible. What do you think?
KFFs to protect boyz are quite common in this edition. I prefer them to protect vehicles/walkers but I hate the green tide concept KFFs help in dealing with heavy flamers, assault cannons and other anti infantry weapons that have some AP, but most of them like bolters, storm bolters, mortars, poisoned shots, etc don't have an AP so the 5+ invuln is not that better than the 6+ given by the t-shirt. I usually don't even bring the painboy either and tipycally I don't invest a single point in the nobz' weapon. Keep the boyz as cheap as possible. They're only useful to deny some area, sit on objecitves, screen the HQs and tie shooty stuff. Try to charge turn 1 with kommandos and teleported boyz.
A single round of shooting using 1300 points that kills 120-180 points of orks doesn't look quite effective. If you want to use pure greentides you need many more bodies than 120. 180 minimum. Or less but with some stormboyz/kommandos.
But yes, competitive AM lists and guilliman gunlines are hard counters for orks.
Weazel wrote: Yet to play my first game, but been figuring out lists from what I have (which not an extensive collection yet). After not much theory crafting I realized that unless running a green tide (120-150 boyz or even more) a KFF or several are more or less mandatory? I mean with mere t-shirts the boyz are just too damn fragile to survive any serious firepower. I killed 57 boyz w/ painboy from a single round of shooting of about 1300 points of Space Wolves. Space Wolves, imagine that! I was quickly dismayed by the idea of meeting a proper gunline of the Astra Militarum. Turn 1 tabling began to sink in as a very probable outcome.
I dislike KFFs as a mechanic and I would like to forego using them, but I don't think it is possible. What do you think?
KFFs to protect boyz are quite common in this edition. I prefer them to protect vehicles/walkers but I hate the green tide concept KFFs help in dealing with heavy flamers, assault cannons and other anti infantry weapons that have some AP, but most of them like bolters, storm bolters, mortars, poisoned shots, etc don't have an AP so the 5+ invuln is not that better than the 6+ given by the t-shirt. I usually don't even bring the painboy either and tipycally I don't invest a single point in the nobz' weapon. Keep the boyz as cheap as possible. They're only useful to deny some area, sit on objecitves, screen the HQs and tie shooty stuff. Try to charge turn 1 with kommandos and teleported boyz.
A single round of shooting using 1300 points that kills 120-180 points of orks doesn't look quite effective. If you want to use pure greentides you need many more bodies than 120. 180 minimum. Or less but with some stormboyz/kommandos.
But yes, competitive AM lists and guilliman gunlines are hard counters for orks.
Well 57 boyz is almost 350 points, but anyway. SW shooting is not legendary, but you know this I suppose. Which is why I said a proper shooting army is going to make short work of them.
I only have 80 Boyz and can borrow about 40 more, so maybe just barely enough to be called a Green Tide. I guess I'll have to incorporate at least one KFF into the mix. I'm just getting a bit burned out painting all the boyz is all...
Weazel wrote: Yet to play my first game, but been figuring out lists from what I have (which not an extensive collection yet). After not much theory crafting I realized that unless running a green tide (120-150 boyz or even more) a KFF or several are more or less mandatory? I mean with mere t-shirts the boyz are just too damn fragile to survive any serious firepower. I killed 57 boyz w/ painboy from a single round of shooting of about 1300 points of Space Wolves. Space Wolves, imagine that! I was quickly dismayed by the idea of meeting a proper gunline of the Astra Militarum. Turn 1 tabling began to sink in as a very probable outcome.
I dislike KFFs as a mechanic and I would like to forego using them, but I don't think it is possible. What do you think?
Regarding resilience, Orks are mentioned in the fluff to feel very little pain if at all. Do you think a fluffwise justified universal 6+ FNP would make Orks overpowered or merely viable? I mean 6+ is nothing to write home about. A Painboy might boost it to 5+ FNP to make him worthwhile... Because at 6+ FNP he really isn't worth it outside of patching up Weirdboy brains.
The KFF is very beneficial for anything with a 4+ save. That is transports, fliers, bikes, walking Nobz and such. For 6+ and 3+ save units the KFF is beneficial, but not wildly so. For a a walker list the meks repair ability will do more than the KFF, just as the painboyz heal ability is more important than the 6+++ save.
Losing 60 boyz a turn is not uncommon, and those games are still winnable if you bring 180-210 boyz.
The KFF is pretty good for any type of vehicle. Most anti-tank weapons tend to be one shot, high strength, good AP, high damage. Every single save against those will prolong its life by a lot.
For simple orks I'm split - it should make sense, but I somehow never manage to roll enough saves for them to matter.
Haven't yet missed a kff in my footslogging army. Too expensive. Too restrictive. I prefer boyz to be less bunched up. They allready need to keep range to Ghaz and painboy. Forcing them in a 9" bauble is not a great idea for board controle.
I think the KFF is very useful for vehicles, especially T8 vehicles. Most weapons that hurt these units are AP -3 or better so getting a 5+ save instead of a 6+ is pretty nice.
Well 57 boyz is almost 350 points, but anyway. SW shooting is not legendary, but you know this I suppose. Which is why I said a proper shooting army is going to make short work of them.
I only have 80 Boyz and can borrow about 40 more, so maybe just barely enough to be called a Green Tide. I guess I'll have to incorporate at least one KFF into the mix. I'm just getting a bit burned out painting all the boyz is all...
SW shooting is not legendary but SM one is. A gunline with razorbacks has nothing to do with SW which are supposed to be an elite melee army. If you play SW like they were SM now their shooting can be quite effective too.
If you want to go footsloggers you need the numbers. 120 boyz are not an horde army. If you like lesser bodies you need 60-90 stormboyz and/or 45 kommandos. Try a 2-3 mobz on foot, a couple of mobz of stormboyz and 3 mobz of kommandos, you should be able to bring decent green tides with "just" 150ish bodies.
We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.
Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.
Weazel wrote: Yet to play my first game, but been figuring out lists from what I have (which not an extensive collection yet). After not much theory crafting I realized that unless running a green tide (120-150 boyz or even more) a KFF or several are more or less mandatory? I mean with mere t-shirts the boyz are just too damn fragile to survive any serious firepower. I killed 57 boyz w/ painboy from a single round of shooting of about 1300 points of Space Wolves. Space Wolves, imagine that! I was quickly dismayed by the idea of meeting a proper gunline of the Astra Militarum. Turn 1 tabling began to sink in as a very probable outcome.
I dislike KFFs as a mechanic and I would like to forego using them, but I don't think it is possible. What do you think?
KFFs to protect boyz are quite common in this edition. I prefer them to protect vehicles/walkers but I hate the green tide concept KFFs help in dealing with heavy flamers, assault cannons and other anti infantry weapons that have some AP, but most of them like bolters, storm bolters, mortars, poisoned shots, etc don't have an AP so the 5+ invuln is not that better than the 6+ given by the t-shirt. I usually don't even bring the painboy either and tipycally I don't invest a single point in the nobz' weapon. Keep the boyz as cheap as possible. They're only useful to deny some area, sit on objecitves, screen the HQs and tie shooty stuff. Try to charge turn 1 with kommandos and teleported boyz.
A single round of shooting using 1300 points that kills 120-180 points of orks doesn't look quite effective. If you want to use pure greentides you need many more bodies than 120. 180 minimum. Or less but with some stormboyz/kommandos.
But yes, competitive AM lists and guilliman gunlines are hard counters for orks.
Well 57 boyz is almost 350 points, but anyway. SW shooting is not legendary, but you know this I suppose. Which is why I said a proper shooting army is going to make short work of them.
I only have 80 Boyz and can borrow about 40 more, so maybe just barely enough to be called a Green Tide. I guess I'll have to incorporate at least one KFF into the mix. I'm just getting a bit burned out painting all the boyz is all...
Yes, painting 180 models is definitely a drag. I really like the mass infantry play-style, but even I think the Ork meta is too extreme in that regard. Unfortunately mixed lists works really poorly unless you have a large amount of blocking terrain in the middle of the board.
One of the reasons that the pure green tide works well against very shooty armies right now, is that the meta includes a lot of las-cannons, plasmas, earthshaker batteries, battlecannons, railguns, brigh lances and so on. But sometimes you run into a list with large amount of bolters, storm-bolters, heavy-bolters and stuff like that, and then you will suffer. I have only played SW once in 8th edition, but when I did I got the impression, that the wolves is somewhat susceptible to smite.
Zomnivore wrote: I have 90 boyz is that enough now adays or do I need to paint even more?
90 is a good number since it's ideal to fill out the troops slots in a battalion detachment. Depending on how competitive your meta is, 90 is the bare minimum requirement for most Ork lists, after which you can sprinkle around whatever support you want, like stormboyz, kommandos or mek/big guns.
Zomnivore wrote: I have 90 boyz is that enough now adays or do I need to paint even more?
90 is a good number since it's ideal to fill out the troops slots in a battalion detachment. Depending on how competitive your meta is, 90 is the bare minimum requirement for most Ork lists, after which you can sprinkle around whatever support you want, like stormboyz, kommandos or mek/big guns.
What do you all think of massed stormboyz? We lose the Green Tide rule, but gain speed, for a low cost. Has anyone tried run 90 or more stormboyz?
Zomnivore wrote: I have 90 boyz is that enough now adays or do I need to paint even more?
90 is a good number since it's ideal to fill out the troops slots in a battalion detachment. Depending on how competitive your meta is, 90 is the bare minimum requirement for most Ork lists, after which you can sprinkle around whatever support you want, like stormboyz, kommandos or mek/big guns.
What do you all think of massed stormboyz? We lose the Green Tide rule, but gain speed, for a low cost. Has anyone tried run 90 or more stormboyz?
I think they're good, but not by themselves good. Definitely more of a supplementary force than the core part of an Ork army. I can see you fielding 60 or so alongside a green tide but they have a few more weaknesses than boyz do. For one thing, since they're not troops, you miss out on easy CP that boyz fill if you try to max out on them. Also, missing out the Green Tide rule can make a difference as Weirdboyz with Da Jump more often than not allow some of your big boyz units to get in before they lose half their number and against certain targets you really need that extra oomph that Stormboyz can't quite match. Also, the dakka that shoota boyz can put out when teleported can make a significant difference against certain armies like Slaanesh daemons in the off chance they don't get the charge against a target.
Taking mass storm boyz also requires (IMO) Zagstruk and a Biker Warboss to keep them in line, as seeing them beeline towards their targets will make them big fire magnets that are not very resilient. I've used them with a KFF Biker Mek but I'm not sure if its worth the investment given how quickly they can outpace even a biker mek.
Jidmah wrote: We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.
Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.
I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.
That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.
Taking mass storm boyz also requires (IMO) Zagstruk and a Biker Warboss to keep them in line, as seeing them beeline towards their targets will make them big fire magnets that are not very resilient. I've used them with a KFF Biker Mek but I'm not sure if its worth the investment given how quickly they can outpace even a biker mek.
Actually zagstruck is enough to keep them in line, the warboss is needed to babysit the boyz. I've tried the combo 2x30 stormboyz, zagstruck and a biker mek to shield them with also 3x30 boyz and a teleporting weirdboy. They're good but still suffer from the rock-paper-scissor syndrome: if you go first or the opponent doesn't have massive anti infantry tools you're probably going to crush him easily, if you go second and the opponent is guilliman and friends or other lists that can decimate infantries you may lose all the stormboyz before they reach combat, regardless of the KFF. If the opponent is better than you in close combat the combo is not effective either.
Generally speaking 60 stormboyz and zagstruk can be considered solid. Not an auto-take since they may find hard counters and since they cost a huge amount of money, unless you convert some cheap boyz bought from ebay with scratch built rockets on their backs, I'll definitely prefer using regular boyz over them.
Jidmah wrote: We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.
Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.
I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.
That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.
Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.
Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.
Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.
Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.
That's exactly my point; without time limits, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't just take more Boyz. I've heard people say that Kannons and Dakkajets are good because they're showing up in tournament lists, but the only reason they're showing up is time limits. Remove a time limit and you're just going to add more Boyz in, because it's the most effective way to play the army. Which is a pity.
Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.
Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.
That's exactly my point; without time limits, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't just take more Boyz. I've heard people say that Kannons and Dakkajets are good because they're showing up in tournament lists, but the only reason they're showing up is time limits. Remove a time limit and you're just going to add more Boyz in, because it's the most effective way to play the army. Which is a pity.
That's why I field my Kommandos lists....well that and the concept of having 90 Kommandos, 30 boyz and 7 nobz armed with Big choppas show up in front of your gun line on any turn I feel like is a lot of fun
The primary reason for not just adding more boyz is that it is very tedious to play with a 250 model army. And I say that as someone who loves boyz and infantry armies in general.
Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree. Any Ork list can be improved by removing any non-boy unit and replacing it with more boyz.
In my last game I brought 210 boyz, Ghaz, a Warboss, Grotsnik, a Painboy and four Weirdboyz. Ghaz and the Weirdboyz were solid, as they always are, but if had dumped Ghaz and two Weirdboyz for a Warboss and 40 more boyz, then I think my list would have been even stronger (and even more boring). 210 is already close to my pain threshold, even though I am a fairly quick mover.
I think that against many lists, with 300 boyz you could just stand on objectives and not engage in combat, and then win the game on points.
That's why I field my Kommandos lists....well that and the concept of having 90 Kommandos, 30 boyz and 7 nobz armed with Big choppas show up in front of your gun line on any turn I feel like is a lot of fun
This list also protects you somewhat against first turn shenanigans, like that stupid ravenguard stratagem, or just the good old Girlyman Assault-cannon parking lot. Do you ever use snikrot?
Jidmah wrote: We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.
Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.
I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.
That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.
I kind of doubt that. Kannons are simply one of the few shooting units that is actually worth its points and reasonably survivable for its points. Even if the kannon is taken out, you have two hard to kill gunners left that can still score objectives.
According to one guy that fielded such a list he was spamming kannons to be able to threaten the daemon primarchs at all, which are in half the tournament lists right now. With a green tide you are pretty much forced to ignore Mortarion and Magnus and hope for the best, Mortarion can take out a mob of 30 all by himself if he doesn't roll terrible. Best he can do is take out three kannons in one turn, by smiting one, shooting another and assaulting the third, which is not at all guaranteed to work - and then you'd still have three pairs of grot gunners left. In addition, the secondary fire mode is useful for taking out bubble wraps.
Last, but not least, kannons are 27 points for 5 wounds, ork boyz are 30 points for 5 wounds, so you don't lose that much from fielding them instead of boyz.
I use units of 2 KMKs each. One unit if I have a couple of trukks full of bustas, two units with only one trukk of bustas and three units if I don't bring tankbustas.
I've scratch built all my mek gunz and magnetized the platforms to switch weapons, I've bought some bitz form a site in order to make them look WYSIWYG but since WYSIWYG is not a thing anymore, so you can scratch build your own artillery and make it count as the type of big/mek gunz you prefer.
The original models are utterly expensive, even if they're quite cool IMHO.
How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.
Ashkayel wrote: Game #2 (2000 pts):
My list: 6x 12 boyz w/ PK nob in trukk, 4x KMK, 3x min bike squad, 3x min kommando squad, Zhadsnark, 2x KFF bikermek
Went second, lost all my KMK on first turn but not a single trukk, made multiple charges (he had scouts, termies and Lysander in range, wasn't his best move), fought a lot, engaged as much as possible his razorbacks, etc. He conceded after turn 2. I had the relic and was locking in combat more and more stuff every turn.
Game #3 (1000 pts):
My list: 2x 5 nobz w/ runts and a warboss in a wagon, 5 tankbustas and 13 shootas in an OT wagon w/ big shootas, 1 kannon, 1 KFF bikermek
Went first, moved forward, eventually charged with the nobz, we had a good fight, shooty wagon was doing shooty stuff and was ready to jump in the fight. He conceded after turn 3, I was way ahead in objectives, and also a bit on the battlefield.
Thanks for this! I'm glad to see people having some success with stuff other then Green Tide and Smite spam.
Could you post your lists with a lil more detail (HQ's, Nob's, Boss Nob's, Trukk's and Battlewagon's equipment and so on) and a little more detailed thoughts on the game/battlerep?
Have you (or anyone else) had any ideas on improving those lists?
Shrapnelbait wrote: How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.
They don't work at all really. Mass stormboyz can down flyers (those with airborne and hard to hit), but only if your opponent makes a mistake in his movement. The same is true of Weirdboyz. They can be effective against flyers, but only if your opponent slips up and lets them. And you cannot count on that.
By far the most effective way of dealing with (airborne) fliers is to:
Shrapnelbait wrote: How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.
I mathed it out in another thread.
Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.
You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.
For anyone wanting to use gork/Morkanaught i just built mine and magnetized it to be both. You can litterally stick the KMK inside the megashootas backend to make a reversible weapon. I just put a magnet on the bottom of the megakannon and moved the cable to the side. then mounted the other magnet inside the gun arm housing. The body weapons are easy to magnetize and i also magnetized the force field thing on top of the body. Not it can easily be either variant. i have yet to play it in a game but i am hopeful it will be fun.
I really like the morkanaut and while I think it would be nice on the pocket to have it set up a specific way so I could have morkanaut or a gorkanaut I think ultimately I'd like one of each just to have the option so I'm going to assemble it without magnetizing.
That being said.
In a one one fight who wins the morkanaut or the gorkanaut.
In a one one fight who wins the morkanaut or the gorkanaut.
Gorkanaut wins every time. 2 more attacks just makes it better at what it's best at: hitting stuff. Their ranged capacities on both are negligable, but the Gorka at least can't hurt itself shooting its weapons. The KFF just doesn't provide much protection against the kind of weapons flying around the battlefield these days.
Glane wrote: I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.
Look what this guy does allowing 2h games to be won(albeit he comments that being tight often seeming to end on T3-T4 though often enough by opponent conceding) with 180 boyz.
Shrapnelbait wrote: How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.
I mathed it out in another thread.
Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.
You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.
And good luck catching a flyer with stormboyz. Ohh and the fact that the storm raven can basically erase a mob of stormboyz in one round of shooting and then deal with the CC of the others, fly out of range on turn 2 and erase another mob.
As for taking Snikrot in my Kommandos lists? No, he isn't worth his points and his ability is wasted since I want my Kommandos charging the turn they arrive so they tend to avoid cover.
Problem with movement trays, is as soon as the boyz are in combat the trays just get in the way.
They might speed up movement slightly, but slow down combat as you take them off to pile in.
Glane wrote: I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.
Look what this guy does allowing 2h games to be won(albeit he comments that being tight often seeming to end on T3-T4 though often enough by opponent conceding) with 180 boyz.
With 8th ed works even better than ever.
In preperation for a tournament that was imposing strict 2hr 15min time limits on games, I did up a green tide list and tried to get a game in. We hit bottom of Turn 2 at the 2 hour mark.
That might sound par for the course, but I was doing all my movement in my opponent's turn. I was simply moving the closest model from each unit forward, ending my turn, then using his movement and shooting phases to move my stuff. I had no shooting to speak of so that didn't slow us down.
What slowed us down was close combat. It just takes a long time to pile in, roll attacks, saves, etc. Movement trays don't help with that. And you can't just go "Oh i won't bother attacking with those Boyz" like a Guard player strapped for time might not bother to shoot with some Conscripts. Boyz win by attrition and numbers, so you have to keep rolling those attacks. And short of using dice aps, which no-one wants to allow, there's no way to speed up rolling 100+ dice.
What helps for rolling lots of dice is having fixed numbers of each color of dice. For example, if you have 15 red dice, 10 white dice and 5 dice, you can quickly grab all red and white dice to roll 25 attacks. Make sure to collect all your dice after rolling.
Also keep track of how many orks are left in any mob all the time, use d10 or d20 if you can't reliably remember it all. You no longer spend time counting orks if you do that.
For pile-ins, don't use measurement tape, either buy the combat gauge from GW or make one yourself. If you know the thing is 3", you each single move becomes a lot faster since you no longer keep checking the tape.
This has helped me speed up my turns tremendously.
Jidmah wrote: What helps for rolling lots of dice is having fixed numbers of each color of dice. For example, if you have 15 red dice, 10 white dice and 5 dice, you can quickly grab all red and white dice to roll 25 attacks. Make sure to collect all your dice after rolling.
Also keep track of how many orks are left in any mob all the time, use d10 or d20 if you can't reliably remember it all. You no longer spend time counting orks if you do that.
For pile-ins, don't use measurement tape, either buy the combat gauge from GW or make one yourself. If you know the thing is 3", you each single move becomes a lot faster since you no longer keep checking the tape.
This has helped me speed up my turns tremendously.
All good advices and some I will pick up myself! I particularly like the idea of fixed numbers of different coloured dice. Never occured to me. I always have just random pile of dices but for horde army certainly makes sense. Time to get dice shopping! Opponents soon wonder why I have this big pile of dices 20 different colours
I agree with what everyone else have said: movement trays helps deployment and movement, but the suck on terrain and you will often need to take the models off the trays when charging, piling in, and wrapping around in the fight phase.
I once saw a dude who had these triangular mini-trays for 3 25mm based models (tzaangors I think). The tray had a clear rod in the middle for grabbing, and they were magnetised. He had made this neat transport-box were all the trays would fit in a pattern, and when he needed to take casualties he would just swap bases. Like removing three 3-man trays and adding a single model for eight casualties. It essentially meant that a large blob of 30 models handled like a blob of ten models.
Fixed measuring gauges for 1" to 5-6" is also a big help. But the most important part is probably practice. Practice moving your army, fighting and piling in quickly.
Nora wrote: One way to speed up playing with 100++ models is to use a app for rolling dice.
That runs into issue of opponent not neccessarily trusting computer's(or phone's) pseudo-random.
Especially when they know that you are a software developer and claim that you could have rigged the app yourself...
(And yes, that happened to me.)
Oh it would be dirt easy for me to do android dice roller that has say 13% of 1's, 20% of 6's etc. So it would still ROLL those bad results but would be slightly skewed in my favour...
Jidmah wrote: You could just have it automatically roll sixes when you hold the roll button slightly longer.
That would be easier to catch though. Cheating is no use if you get easily caught. You would need to manually AVOID doing that on crucial events or you would be caught pretty fast.
Casinos become filthy rich by having tiny unnoticable edge. If one were to create cheating dice roll bad idea would be to make it roll HUGELY different results or have suspicious looking triggers. Holding unusually long button on key rolls which then have habit of going good? Works for a while but somebody's bound to catch it and then you are out and likely have trouble entering ANY tournament...
Nora wrote: One way to speed up playing with 100++ models is to use a app for rolling dice.
That runs into issue of opponent not neccessarily trusting computer's(or phone's) pseudo-random.
Especially when they know that you are a software developer and claim that you could have rigged the app yourself...
(And yes, that happened to me.)
Oh it would be dirt easy for me to do android dice roller that has say 13% of 1's, 20% of 6's etc. So it would still ROLL those bad results but would be slightly skewed in my favour...
A smarter way would be to simply favour results of six over results of 3 and 4. Then both players could use the same app, but it would still benefit ork shooting and ork armour saving over space marine equivalents. But then again, it would be the reverse in close combat, and we do that quite a lot.
Or maybe the old trick of using dice loaded with a permanent magnet, rolling them on an electromagnetic table where you control the polarity with a foot-pedal.
"Rolling 40 1s again , huh? You really ARE unlucky. Oh well, lets see if my shootaboyz can down another landraider."
Jidmah wrote: You could just have it automatically roll sixes when you hold the roll button slightly longer.
That would be easier to catch though. Cheating is no use if you get easily caught. You would need to manually AVOID doing that on crucial events or you would be caught pretty fast.
Casinos become filthy rich by having tiny unnoticable edge. If one were to create cheating dice roll bad idea would be to make it roll HUGELY different results or have suspicious looking triggers. Holding unusually long button on key rolls which then have habit of going good? Works for a while but somebody's bound to catch it and then you are out and likely have trouble entering ANY tournament...
Eh, I used to play a lot of MtG tournaments, where a lot of cheating used to be going on. The amount of people I called out on cheating was baffling, but even more baffling was how many people did not catch those players. And I'm not talking about high-level cheats like slightly altering card backs or the like, but plain cheats like picking up your dice and readjusting your life total without reason, drawing a card when they assumed I was not looking and the like.
If I were actually interested in spending a weekend on a dice app to cheat, I would make sure I could roll whatever I wanted without you noticing it. A tap is hard to distinguish from a quick hold and release, you can react differently to multi-touch gestures, you could have different areas on your roll button for different results, you could even change behavior depending on at what angle your phone is held.
Usually only a few cheated dice are enough to tip balance in your favor. There is a huge difference between rolling for damage and your average 10.5. I managed to save pretty much an entire army of tau with a 5++ save on my dakka jet with regular dice, if I do the same with an app it might just be luck as well.
But this is going way off topic. Bottom line is, it's probably not easy for most people to build a dice rolling app and even less of those people are trying to cheat.
Still, the possibility exists, so it's pretty much the same as asking someone using casino dice to roll their dice properly, even if they have no clue about how to cheat with them.
Jidmah wrote: You could just have it automatically roll sixes when you hold the roll button slightly longer.
That would be easier to catch though. Cheating is no use if you get easily caught. You would need to manually AVOID doing that on crucial events or you would be caught pretty fast.
Casinos become filthy rich by having tiny unnoticable edge. If one were to create cheating dice roll bad idea would be to make it roll HUGELY different results or have suspicious looking triggers. Holding unusually long button on key rolls which then have habit of going good? Works for a while but somebody's bound to catch it and then you are out and likely have trouble entering ANY tournament...
Eh, I used to play a lot of MtG tournaments, where a lot of cheating used to be going on. The amount of people I called out on cheating was baffling, but even more baffling was how many people did not catch those players. And I'm not talking about high-level cheats like slightly altering card backs or the like, but plain cheats like picking up your dice and readjusting your life total without reason, drawing a card when they assumed I was not looking and the like.
If I were actually interested in spending a weekend on a dice app to cheat, I would make sure I could roll whatever I wanted without you noticing it. A tap is hard to distinguish from a quick hold and release, you can react differently to multi-touch gestures, you could have different areas on your roll button for different results, you could even change behavior depending on at what angle your phone is held.
Usually only a few cheated dice are enough to tip balance in your favor. There is a huge difference between rolling for damage and your average 10.5. I managed to save pretty much an entire army of tau with a 5++ save on my dakka jet with regular dice, if I do the same with an app it might just be luck as well.
But this is going way off topic. Bottom line is, it's probably not easy for most people to build a dice rolling app and even less of those people are trying to cheat.
Still, the possibility exists, so it's pretty much the same as asking someone using casino dice to roll their dice properly, even if they have no clue about how to cheat with them.
Is this what the ork tactics thread has boiled down to? Best way to cheat, when all else fails...
Point difference notwithstanding, is there any reason to field a footslogging Warboss instead of Zhadsnark / Warboss on Bike? Bike gives a lot of manouverability and Zhadsnark's guaranteed 6" advance makes his threat radius pretty massive. (Edit: Oh yeah, Waaagh doesn't affect himself actually, bummer)
Sure you can Da Jump a Warboss on foot but I can't think of a situation where that would be a consideration... Or if you want to hide your pedestrian Warboss from snipers in a BW...
I'm ready to pull the trigger on Zhadsnark but I guess I just need affirmation that he's a good pick.
Weazel wrote: Point difference notwithstanding, is there any reason to field a footslogging Warboss instead of Zhadsnark / Warboss on Bike? Bike gives a lot of manouverability and Zhadsnark's guaranteed 6" advance makes his threat radius pretty massive. (Edit: Oh yeah, Waaagh doesn't affect himself actually, bummer)
Sure you can Da Jump a Warboss on foot but I can't think of a situation where that would be a consideration... Or if you want to hide your pedestrian Warboss from snipers in a BW...
I'm ready to pull the trigger on Zhadsnark but I guess I just need affirmation that he's a good pick.
Zhadsnark is okay. An ordinary Warboss on a warbike is also okay. I personally use footslogging Warbosses to save points, because you generally want them to be behind your infantry.
Weazel wrote: Point difference notwithstanding, is there any reason to field a footslogging Warboss instead of Zhadsnark / Warboss on Bike? Bike gives a lot of manouverability and Zhadsnark's guaranteed 6" advance makes his threat radius pretty massive. (Edit: Oh yeah, Waaagh doesn't affect himself actually, bummer)
Sure you can Da Jump a Warboss on foot but I can't think of a situation where that would be a consideration... Or if you want to hide your pedestrian Warboss from snipers in a BW...
I'm ready to pull the trigger on Zhadsnark but I guess I just need affirmation that he's a good pick.
Zhadsnark is okay. An ordinary Warboss on a warbike is also okay. I personally use footslogging Warbosses to save points, because you generally want them to be behind your infantry.
I found a slogging Warboss to be a bit of a waste of points leading from the back, I'd like to smash something with his Klaw but I found it doesn't really happen if there's a wall of Boyz in front. What I mean is if I don't get stuck in with him I consider him more or less wasted. With a Bike I could more easily work around the Boy blobs and choose his fights more freely... The price hike doesn't feel like a deal breaker to me.
Weazel wrote: Point difference notwithstanding, is there any reason to field a footslogging Warboss instead of Zhadsnark / Warboss on Bike? Bike gives a lot of manouverability and Zhadsnark's guaranteed 6" advance makes his threat radius pretty massive. (Edit: Oh yeah, Waaagh doesn't affect himself actually, bummer)
Sure you can Da Jump a Warboss on foot but I can't think of a situation where that would be a consideration... Or if you want to hide your pedestrian Warboss from snipers in a BW...
I'm ready to pull the trigger on Zhadsnark but I guess I just need affirmation that he's a good pick.
Zhadsnark is okay. An ordinary Warboss on a warbike is also okay. I personally use footslogging Warbosses to save points, because you generally want them to be behind your infantry.
I found a slogging Warboss to be a bit of a waste of points leading from the back, I'd like to smash something with his Klaw but I found it doesn't really happen if there's a wall of Boyz in front. What I mean is if I don't get stuck in with him I consider him more or less wasted. With a Bike I could more easily work around the Boy blobs and choose his fights more freely... The price hike doesn't feel like a deal breaker to me.
The most important point of a Warboss is his Waaaagh buff and the way he helps with failed morale checks. Those buffs are crucial. He is okay in combat with a big choppa, but a klaw is a waste of points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The klaw on Zhadsnark is okay though.
Weazel wrote: Point difference notwithstanding, is there any reason to field a footslogging Warboss instead of Zhadsnark / Warboss on Bike? Bike gives a lot of manouverability and Zhadsnark's guaranteed 6" advance makes his threat radius pretty massive. (Edit: Oh yeah, Waaagh doesn't affect himself actually, bummer)
Sure you can Da Jump a Warboss on foot but I can't think of a situation where that would be a consideration... Or if you want to hide your pedestrian Warboss from snipers in a BW...
I'm ready to pull the trigger on Zhadsnark but I guess I just need affirmation that he's a good pick.
Zhadsnark is okay. An ordinary Warboss on a warbike is also okay. I personally use footslogging Warbosses to save points, because you generally want them to be behind your infantry.
I found a slogging Warboss to be a bit of a waste of points leading from the back, I'd like to smash something with his Klaw but I found it doesn't really happen if there's a wall of Boyz in front. What I mean is if I don't get stuck in with him I consider him more or less wasted. With a Bike I could more easily work around the Boy blobs and choose his fights more freely... The price hike doesn't feel like a deal breaker to me.
The most important point of a Warboss is his Waaaagh buff and the way he helps with failed morale checks. Those buffs are crucial. He is okay in combat with a big choppa, but a klaw is a waste of points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The klaw on Zhadsnark is okay though.
Okay thanks, didn't think about it that way. Maybe I'll just keep him cheap in the back and try to build conga lines to utilize his bubbles. Always thought the S12 Power Klaw was da bomb...
Weazel wrote: Always thought the S12 Power Klaw was da bomb...
Trouble is in 8th there's virtually no difference between Str 10 and Str 12 because they both wound T7 and T8 on 3+ and T5 and below on 2+. T6 stuff is rare.
Giant squiggoth makes another return to form, Semper's kommandos are seeing some play, big trakks are a new performer, and KMK's making a statement again.
In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a 200+ boyz list do well.
Ashkayel wrote: Game #2 (2000 pts):
My list: 6x 12 boyz w/ PK nob in trukk, 4x KMK, 3x min bike squad, 3x min kommando squad, Zhadsnark, 2x KFF bikermek
Went second, lost all my KMK on first turn but not a single trukk, made multiple charges (he had scouts, termies and Lysander in range, wasn't his best move), fought a lot, engaged as much as possible his razorbacks, etc. He conceded after turn 2. I had the relic and was locking in combat more and more stuff every turn.
Game #3 (1000 pts):
My list: 2x 5 nobz w/ runts and a warboss in a wagon, 5 tankbustas and 13 shootas in an OT wagon w/ big shootas, 1 kannon, 1 KFF bikermek
Went first, moved forward, eventually charged with the nobz, we had a good fight, shooty wagon was doing shooty stuff and was ready to jump in the fight. He conceded after turn 3, I was way ahead in objectives, and also a bit on the battlefield.
Thanks for this! I'm glad to see people having some success with stuff other then Green Tide and Smite spam.
Could you post your lists with a lil more detail (HQ's, Nob's, Boss Nob's, Trukk's and Battlewagon's equipment and so on) and a little more detailed thoughts on the game/battlerep?
Have you (or anyone else) had any ideas on improving those lists?
Sure, here are the detailed lists and additional thoughts. I've put the links to [very basic] batreps I did (in French, with orky comments in English). They were not meant to be posted here (I would have done them in English) but it will help you see the games. Disclaimer: Normally my batreps are more detailed than that, but since I had 3 to do, I went a bit quick on these ones. And as I said, keep in mind these were casual games.
Additional thoughts:
- I got this one easy, he really gave me so many T1 charges. Still, this is a pretty tough and mobile army, even if 2-3 trukks would have been destroyed on his T2, I wouldn't have lost all my boys. Target saturation is the key, entire army was T5+ and 4+ or 5++ save.
- Kustom Mega Sluggas are useless, I had leftover points but I forgot you can't fire your dakkaguns at the same time...
- Gotta be careful with Zhadsnark (or any character), I charged the assault termies with him and 3 mobz of boyz, he attacked, termies counter-attacked and killed him. Dam3 with no invul is painful.
- Could not try my KMK, sadly, they died on T1.
- The only thing I wasn't satisfied with in this list was the kommandos, and even then, they acted as distraction units and would have been a lot better if they got their charge. You need these 3 elite units for the brigade, for only 135 pts, hard to find better than that. You could replace them with meks for the mek gunz or runtherds in trukks (10 boyz, 1 nob and 1 runtherd) to give additional punch! The only thing I would remove for another game would be the 6 wrecking balls + the 2 KMS, that gives me another 32 pts to work with.
Additional thoughts:
- Don't know if the "one wagon fights, one wagon shoots" is a good strategy, it worked that time, needs more games to verify.
- The shooty wagon is still pretty choppy (16 boyz 2 nobz).
- Need more power stabbas against marines. I should have traded 1 big choppa for 3 power stabbas. You already hit on 3+ most of the time. Of course, a BC or PK here and there always helps.
- I used the 2 nobz units as one (charged the same opponents), can't say if it was really worth it to split them, other than unlocking that vanguard detachment. I would have preferred to attack with 10 nobz before the centurions counter-attack.
- How to improve that list? I don't know. I'm not sure it was a really competitive list, we had a good game, though. I like mechanized lists so I might try it again for a 1000 pts game. We'll see.
Giant squiggoth makes another return to form, Semper's kommandos are seeing some play, big trakks are a new performer, and KMK's making a statement again.
In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a 200+ boyz list do well.
I had to do a double-take when I saw the Giant Squiggoth's point cost. You can field two for the price of a single Stompa. I know the Stompa is priced ludicrously but this really threw it into perspective.
Looking up its abilities, I think it's easy to see why it was the all-star in the list. It can take a lot of punishment with 35 wounds, and chucking the KFF on board for a 5++ invul is going to all but ensure it makes contact. But most of all it's a pretty reliable source of mortal wounds when it charges, so I'd expect it to do quite well against some of the lists you see out there.
One thing worth noting is that the guy fought 4 daemon armies, one of each god. Whether or not that meant he got some easy wins I don't know, but he might not have been fighting top tier lists all the time.
Giant squiggoth makes another return to form, Semper's kommandos are seeing some play, big trakks are a new performer, and KMK's making a statement again.
In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a 200+ boyz list do well.
I had to do a double-take when I saw the Giant Squiggoth's point cost. You can field two for the price of a single Stompa. I know the Stompa is priced ludicrously but this really threw it into perspective.
Looking up its abilities, I think it's easy to see why it was the all-star in the list. It can take a lot of punishment with 35 wounds, and chucking the KFF on board for a 5++ invul is going to all but ensure it makes contact. But most of all it's a pretty reliable source of mortal wounds when it charges, so I'd expect it to do quite well against some of the lists you see out there.
One thing worth noting is that the guy fought 4 daemon armies, one of each god. Whether or not that meant he got some easy wins I don't know, but he might not have been fighting top tier lists all the time.
Yeah the Giant Squiggoth has some great rules too, he's putting those kommandos with burnas inside the squiggoth and allowing them to attack while it is in combat, measuring the flamer ranges from any point in the squiggoth, feels good. Huge mortal wound charge, flame everything between 1 and 9 inches away once inside combat. He has very low drops, often getting +1, or can have versatility and put the kommandos in reserve. He described some of the lists he was vsing, some felt a bit fluffy, but definitely still two armies that did extremely well and spammy (horrors + big bird, and a pox walker abuse list that apparently dominated). The list also has a great warlord, the golden grot, a unit that is nigh impossible to kill unless you get tabled. I'm definitely going to copy this strategy until we get a codex.
I love this list. I've played something similar, a T5 spam but with kans (big shootas) and a footslogging mek with KFF, since I only have one biker mek, couple of buggies, boyz' nobz all with choppas to save points, since in a 12 man squad the pk doesn't add much. I know, 7th oriented, but I don't like footsloggers
Giant squiggoth makes another return to form, Semper's kommandos are seeing some play, big trakks are a new performer, and KMK's making a statement again.
In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a 200+ boyz list do well.
I had to do a double-take when I saw the Giant Squiggoth's point cost. You can field two for the price of a single Stompa. I know the Stompa is priced ludicrously but this really threw it into perspective.
Looking up its abilities, I think it's easy to see why it was the all-star in the list. It can take a lot of punishment with 35 wounds, and chucking the KFF on board for a 5++ invul is going to all but ensure it makes contact. But most of all it's a pretty reliable source of mortal wounds when it charges, so I'd expect it to do quite well against some of the lists you see out there.
One thing worth noting is that the guy fought 4 daemon armies, one of each god. Whether or not that meant he got some easy wins I don't know, but he might not have been fighting top tier lists all the time.
Yeah the Giant Squiggoth has some great rules too, he's putting those kommandos with burnas inside the squiggoth and allowing them to attack while it is in combat, measuring the flamer ranges from any point in the squiggoth, feels good. Huge mortal wound charge, flame everything between 1 and 9 inches away once inside combat. He has very low drops, often getting +1, or can have versatility and put the kommandos in reserve. He described some of the lists he was vsing, some felt a bit fluffy, but definitely still two armies that did extremely well and spammy (horrors + big bird, and a pox walker abuse list that apparently dominated). The list also has a great warlord, the golden grot, a unit that is nigh impossible to kill unless you get tabled. I'm definitely going to copy this strategy until we get a codex.
I thought of the flamer idea, but you cannot target the units you are in combat with, so you would need to hope the charged units are close to other units. The embarked KFF is also somewhat contentious as to whether it works. I think RAI it does but the KFF rules say "the vehicle transporting...has a 5++" and the Squiggoth isn't a vehicle, so that is up to the TO discretion unless I'm missing an FAQ somewhere.
Giant squiggoth makes another return to form, Semper's kommandos are seeing some play, big trakks are a new performer, and KMK's making a statement again.
In fact, it's been a while since I've seen a 200+ boyz list do well.
I had to do a double-take when I saw the Giant Squiggoth's point cost. You can field two for the price of a single Stompa. I know the Stompa is priced ludicrously but this really threw it into perspective.
Looking up its abilities, I think it's easy to see why it was the all-star in the list. It can take a lot of punishment with 35 wounds, and chucking the KFF on board for a 5++ invul is going to all but ensure it makes contact. But most of all it's a pretty reliable source of mortal wounds when it charges, so I'd expect it to do quite well against some of the lists you see out there.
One thing worth noting is that the guy fought 4 daemon armies, one of each god. Whether or not that meant he got some easy wins I don't know, but he might not have been fighting top tier lists all the time.
Yeah the Giant Squiggoth has some great rules too, he's putting those kommandos with burnas inside the squiggoth and allowing them to attack while it is in combat, measuring the flamer ranges from any point in the squiggoth, feels good. Huge mortal wound charge, flame everything between 1 and 9 inches away once inside combat. He has very low drops, often getting +1, or can have versatility and put the kommandos in reserve. He described some of the lists he was vsing, some felt a bit fluffy, but definitely still two armies that did extremely well and spammy (horrors + big bird, and a pox walker abuse list that apparently dominated). The list also has a great warlord, the golden grot, a unit that is nigh impossible to kill unless you get tabled. I'm definitely going to copy this strategy until we get a codex.
I thought of the flamer idea, but you cannot target the units you are in combat with, so you would need to hope the charged units are close to other units. The embarked KFF is also somewhat contentious as to whether it works. I think RAI it does but the KFF rules say "the vehicle transporting...has a 5++" and the Squiggoth isn't a vehicle, so that is up to the TO discretion unless I'm missing an FAQ somewhere.
On the data sheet, the reference to the kff working while embarked doesn't use the vehicle keyword, and that didn't change with the faq. Unless they change it in the future, this reference to vehicles just means whatever the big men is embarked on.
The KFF thing is ambiguous I'll agree, but in the end the pilot of that army was saying that target priority vs his army should really be the Big Trakks first, which no one was doing. Those things have 24" flamers that shoot an average of 8 times each apparently. The squiggoth did work, but apparently the trakks were the deadly unit.
I love this list. I've played something similar, a T5 spam but with kans (big shootas) and a footslogging mek with KFF, since I only have one biker mek, couple of buggies, boyz' nobz all with choppas to save points, since in a 12 man squad the pk doesn't add much. I know, 7th oriented, but I don't like footsloggers
Personally I thought PK were worth it against marines. Yes they are expensive, but they add something. 6 PKs cost 150 pts, which is another trukk full of boyz with barebone nob (72 + 82 = 154 pts). What do I prefer, 6 PK trukks or 7 barebone trukks? Depends on the opponent, I guess.
pismakron wrote: If we get 41 point meganobz in chapter approved, will they become viable then?
No, they will still be cannon fodder for plasma and Las cannon spam. Honestly Lascannons are ludicrously under priced right now and if a predator annihilator shot at a unit of mega nobz it would make back its points in 2 turns.
pismakron wrote: If we get 41 point meganobz in chapter approved, will they become viable then?
If also trukks and battlewagons get significant points reductions then maybe. Since pks were nerfed and they can't be as killy as they were in previous editions, regardless of their cost, the combo meganobz + transport must be way more cheaper than now to be at least viable. 3 meganobz in a trukk for 160 points in total could be something decent. Or 5 of them in a battlewagon for 290 points. Otherwise they need some new rules that help them, maybe with the codex we'll get something that makes pks more effective.
pismakron wrote: If we get 41 point meganobz in chapter approved, will they become viable then?
If also trukks and battlewagons get significant points reductions then maybe. Since pks were nerfed and they can't be as killy as they were in previous editions, regardless of their cost, the combo meganobz + transport must be way more cheaper than now to be at least viable. 3 meganobz in a trukk for 160 points in total could be something decent. Or 5 of them in a battlewagon for 290 points. Otherwise they need some new rules that help them, maybe with the codex we'll get something that makes pks more effective.
I don't think the transports will get a cut. But according to rumours all terminators will get a 5-point drop, and if PKs are dropped 8 pointd like PFists were, then stock MANZ will be 41 points with the kustom shoota. That is about 13 points per wound.
Zomnivore wrote: Is it a good idea to run a gorkanaut and a morkanaut at the same time?
The kit GW gave me was flawed and I told em so they're sending me a replacement so now I'm going to have a gorkanaut and a morkanaut.
What else should I play with them?
I guess it depends on what you usually play against. In theory using two seems like a good idea as it covers a bit of role redundancy and target saturation, but I've found that if your opponent wants them dead quickly that's exactly how they'll end up. I don't play in an overly competitive group and I've tried G/Morkanauts only a small handful of times, once with both units on the board, they've not yet made it into a combat or seen turn 3. It's a shame because I actually really like the models and when 8th edition was being slowly unfurled through the community website I thought they looked excellent and perhaps would be much more fun than they were last edition. They aren't as survivable or as dangerous as the models or their stats look, lascannons are just too plentiful for our overpriced vehicles to be very useful from my (limited) experience.
I don't want to seem overly negative as I think in the right situation a Gorkanaut could be really good and I sincerely hope you have more luck with them both.
Edit: one idea I've had around trying to make these beautiful brutes work in froendly ganes is two Gorkanauts running alongside Mek Boss Buzzgob, who comes with a KFF as well as two grot oilers for better fixing, and a Waaagh! banner Nob for improved to-hit rolls. Perhaps an 'ard case + deff rolla Battlewagon or two filled with boyz as well, if points allow.
Zomnivore wrote: Is it a good idea to run a gorkanaut and a morkanaut at the same time?
The kit GW gave me was flawed and I told em so they're sending me a replacement so now I'm going to have a gorkanaut and a morkanaut.
What else should I play with them?
Did you build a Gorkanaut or Morkanaut for the flawed kit? Unless you built it as a Morkanaut, the Gorkanaut is frankly better since it does CC significantly better and the shooting from the Morkanaut isn't really any better and they lose CC punch in the bargain. The KFF is also better on a Big Mek on bike since it can't be shot at directly without proper positioning or sniping. Two Gorkanauts would be better IMO. If you really want to avoid duplicates, you can use one of them as a counts as meka dred.
Zomnivore wrote: Is it a good idea to run a gorkanaut and a morkanaut at the same time?
The kit GW gave me was flawed and I told em so they're sending me a replacement so now I'm going to have a gorkanaut and a morkanaut.
What else should I play with them?
Did you build a Gorkanaut or Morkanaut for the flawed kit? Unless you built it as a Morkanaut, the Gorkanaut is frankly better since it does CC significantly better and the shooting from the Morkanaut isn't really any better and they lose CC punch in the bargain. The KFF is also better on a Big Mek on bike since it can't be shot at directly without proper positioning or sniping. Two Gorkanauts would be better IMO. If you really want to avoid duplicates, you can use one of them as a counts as meka dred.
I don't mean stat wise I mean like imperfections in how the plastic kit came.
He asks did you build your flawed kit as gorka or morkanaut. If morkanaut new one should be therefore gorkanaut, if gorkanaut then 2nd gorkanaut as they are better than morkanaut according to him.
Zomnivore wrote: Oh. Well, I stopped mid build to contact GW, so I can still make it a gorkanaut.
Personally I'm hoping that balance will get better in the codex so I'm not really wanting to double up.
In that case, I would suggest magnetizing the weapons. That way you have the freedom of choosing either regardless of which ends up being buffed or nerfed.
xlDuke wrote: Edit: one idea I've had around trying to make these beautiful brutes work in froendly ganes is two Gorkanauts running alongside Mek Boss Buzzgob, who comes with a KFF.
That's a copy/paste typo, Buzzgob has no KFF.
All big Meks have the rule, but it's of no use unless they're equipped with it (which Buzzgob isn't). Look at the first like of the KFF rule.
Zomnivore wrote: Is it a good idea to run a gorkanaut and a morkanaut at the same time?
The kit GW gave me was flawed and I told em so they're sending me a replacement so now I'm going to have a gorkanaut and a morkanaut.
What else should I play with them?
In an armor spam list, yes. If you have the two nauts stomping around with a bunch of deff dreads and killa kanz, or maybe even a battlewagon if you really want, you're probably going to overwhelm the enemy's anti-armor capabilities. I've had decent success in a list with 1 mork, 3 dreads, and 6 kanz, which I'm expanding to mork and gork, 3 dreads, and 9 kanz. Granted, it still won't be as good as the boyz spam lists but it will at least be playable casually.
xlDuke wrote: Edit: one idea I've had around trying to make these beautiful brutes work in froendly ganes is two Gorkanauts running alongside Mek Boss Buzzgob, who comes with a KFF.
That's a copy/paste typo, Buzzgob has no KFF.
All big Meks have the rule, but it's of no use unless they're equipped with it (which Buzzgob isn't). Look at the first like of the KFF rule.
Where does it say he isnt? Just because it's not in his options, doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Take a look at the old wording for Hemlock Wraithfighter. It only says it has 2x Heavy D-Scythes, it never actually says it comes with spirit stones, but they're in its ability section. Does that mean it's just a typo and they don't actually have spirit stones? Nope, if it's listed in the ability section then the model comes with it. Same with certain units and combat shields, and probably a bunch of other examples.
For Buzzgob, it just means that you don't get a choice (as it's not in the options section like it is for other Big Meks). You have to have the KFF.
Edit: Just an addition, all Big Meks have the rule in their ability section, but this is accounted for in the Options section that the KFF is an ability you can choose to have or not. Buzzgob can't choose, so he has to have it.
xlDuke wrote: Edit: one idea I've had around trying to make these beautiful brutes work in froendly ganes is two Gorkanauts running alongside Mek Boss Buzzgob, who comes with a KFF.
That's a copy/paste typo, Buzzgob has no KFF.
All big Meks have the rule, but it's of no use unless they're equipped with it (which Buzzgob isn't). Look at the first like of the KFF rule.
Where does it say he isnt? Just because it's not in his options, doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Take a look at the old wording for Hemlock Wraithfighter. It only says it has 2x Heavy D-Scythes, it never actually says it comes with spirit stones, but they're in its ability section. Does that mean it's just a typo and they don't actually have spirit stones? Nope, if it's listed in the ability section then the model comes with it. Same with certain units and combat shields, and probably a bunch of other examples.
For Buzzgob, it just means that you don't get a choice (as it's not in the options section like it is for other Big Meks). You have to have the KFF.
Edit: Just an addition, all Big Meks have the rule in their ability section, but this is accounted for in the Options section that the KFF is an ability you can choose to have or not. Buzzgob can't choose, so he has to have it.
Just because it has the ability listed does not mean he has the ability. Big Meks have that ability listed in their page but they cannot use it unless they purchase the KFF.
Edit: Didn't see the edit. Nevermind. I'd have to see Buzzgob's actual wording then because it sounds like it's worded differently here.
Just saw the chapter approved teaser and apparently there'll be rules for customs land raiders. It reads to me like those will be match play legal, but they toss off at the bottom that maybe you can use them as guide lines for custom predators or weaponbeasts in open play. I really hope GW doesn't point to this and say you can have your looted wagons, but only in open play. If you're an optimist, however, it might be considered a sign that heavy kustomizin' could still find it's way into our codex. Have there been any leaks about what we might get?
Finally got my Waagh Banner Nob painted enough to use in a game yesterday and I was very impressed with the results. The volume of 2+ dice a 30-strong boyz mob can kick out is nowt to be sneezed at.
Niiru wrote: Edit: Just an addition, all Big Meks have the rule in their ability section, but this is accounted for in the Options section that the KFF is an ability you can choose to have or not. Buzzgob can't choose, so he has to have it.
Buzzgob can't choose, so he can't have it.
The model doesn't have one, he's never previously had one, and his rules don't let him use it.
"If this model is equipped..." And looking at his equipment, he isn't.
Nazrak wrote: Finally got my Waagh Banner Nob painted enough to use in a game yesterday and I was very impressed with the results. The volume of 2+ dice a 30-strong boyz mob can kick out is nowt to be sneezed at.
. But for his price it's almost better to take more boyz
Nazrak wrote: Finally got my Waagh Banner Nob painted enough to use in a game yesterday and I was very impressed with the results. The volume of 2+ dice a 30-strong boyz mob can kick out is nowt to be sneezed at.
. But for his price it's almost better to take more boyz
Well, that's the Ork index summed up in one sentence.
Niiru wrote: Edit: Just an addition, all Big Meks have the rule in their ability section, but this is accounted for in the Options section that the KFF is an ability you can choose to have or not. Buzzgob can't choose, so he has to have it.
Buzzgob can't choose, so he can't have it.
The model doesn't have one, he's never previously had one, and his rules don't let him use it.
"If this model is equipped..." And looking at his equipment, he isn't.
By this logic, Hemlocks don't have spirit stones, or Mindshock pods. Wave Serpents don't have Serpent Shields. Forgeworld have done a copy-paste job on the text, and until they actually release an errata there's no firm answer on it. But because the KFF is listed in the ability section, it shows the model has it. Before the recent FAQ it was even arguable that you could get it without paying points, but now you definitely would.
Without a KFF, buzzgob is fairly pointless as far as I can see.
Well, he hasn't had a KFF for three editions, I don't see why he would suddenly have one - especially since neither his story in the original imperial armor book nor his model indicate anything like that.
xlDuke wrote: Edit: one idea I've had around trying to make these beautiful brutes work in froendly ganes is two Gorkanauts running alongside Mek Boss Buzzgob, who comes with a KFF.
That's a copy/paste typo, Buzzgob has no KFF.
All big Meks have the rule, but it's of no use unless they're equipped with it (which Buzzgob isn't). Look at the first like of the KFF rule.
Thank you for pointing that out to me before I use him on the table top. He did seem like a cheap KFF Big Mek with enhanced repairs, compared to the Index Big Mek with similar equipment. Turns out he's just an overcosted normal Big Mek.
Buzzgobs entry in imperial armor Xenos 2 specifically mentions him having a KFF, but nothing is listed as wargears options. It looks like just another forgeworld editing mistake.
With a KFF buzzgob is a slightly better walking bigmek, just as Grotsnik is to a regular Painboy. Without a KFF he does not make much sense. He does comes with dual oilers which is nice.
The quality of the writing and editing in that book is pretty terrible, I'd rather I hadn't bothered getting it considering the lackluster work they put in.
xlDuke wrote: The quality of the writing and editing in that book is pretty terrible, I'd rather I hadn't bothered getting it considering the lackluster work they put in.
Yeah it's a pretty blatant rush-job. The killkannon is listed as Heavy6 rather than Heavy D6. It would have been great if it hadn't been FAQ ed.
Nazrak wrote: Finally got my Waagh Banner Nob painted enough to use in a game yesterday and I was very impressed with the results. The volume of 2+ dice a 30-strong boyz mob can kick out is nowt to be sneezed at.
. But for his price it's almost better to take more boyz
Well, that's the Ork index summed up in one sentence.
While I don’t disagree with the wider sentiment, I think it’s slightly more situational with the Waaagh banner. For a single mob of boyz, it’s definitely the best idea to bump it up to well over 20, for the extra attack. But if you have multiple mobs of boyz that are going to be in range of the banner, then it seems the WB becomes a viable choice, particularly in any situation where you might struggle to bring huge numbers of boyz to bear in CC. Other thing to bear in mind is that the banner keeps working if mob size drops below 20. I certainly think it’s worth a look.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And from a hobby perspective, sometimes you just need a break from painting boyz.
I was pessimistic about banner nobz after a couple 1000 pts games. Than i played a 1500 walker wall and it came in handy. Kanz benefit from banner nob a lot. As for boyz, i find that Ghaz is allready enough. You need Ghaz anywayz.
The problem with banner nob is that it's another character added to the character cluster in the middle of greentide. You allready get a wierdboy, Grotsnik and Ghaz in there. And going from hitting on 3+ to hittin on 2+ is, while good vs really tough targets, almost irrelevant against most things boyz are hitting. You still need 2 phases to down a rhino.
I also think that the banner nob should have more synergies with klaws, so basically nobz/meganobz/walkers.
The fact that those units are all overpriced doesn't let the banner nob to be worthy. I've tried a list in which there where 6 kans and a gorkanaut joined by a banner a nob and big mek with KFF plus boyz and characters, bikes or buggies and artillery. The banner nob actually did something.
But green tides have already tons of S4 hits, having even more but not that many more doesn't help that much IMHO.
Jidmah wrote: The article explicitly says that Custom Land Raiders only be for open play, which means not for matched play.
Which is a very good decision.
Where does it say that? The only mention to open play I see is in reference to using the land raider creation rules for other models.
The beauty of open play is the variety and experimentation it allows, and perhaps you could apply these rules to Predators or even Tyranid bio-beasts.
While it can be read that way, I think it's pretty clear that the first part references the land raider rules.
In any case, it would be pretty toxic for matched play - everyone would just min/max their vehicles and push everything else out of the game, requiring everyone to hunt on ebay and bit stores to get the perfect load-out for their vehicles. That's quite the opposite of what GW is currently trying to archive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: The fact that those units are all overpriced doesn't let the banner nob to be worthy.
This is pretty much the whole problem. The nob itself is great and properly costed, but the units that would benefit most from him are too expensive.
I also recently found out that banner nobz would be awesome for trukk boyz if they actually did work - not only is the PK nob hitting on 3+, the trukk's wreckin' ball also gets buffed to 4+.
1) Min squads of bikes are decent;
2) Min squads of bikes are shooty units;
3) Min squads of bikes generally shoot at T3 to T7 targets;
4) Min squads of bikes are fast enough and don't advance often;
5) A single slugga shot in close combat is worthless;
Then, giving your biker nob a kustom shoota (4 pts) increases the cost of the unit by +5% but increases the firepower of the unit by:
Against T3: +22% firepower Against T4: +17% firepower Against T5: +15% firepower Against T6-7: +22% firepower
If we look only at the nob, for an increase in cost of 15%, he gets:
Against T3: +67% firepower Against T4: +50% firepower Against T5: +44% firepower Against T6-7: +67% firepower
Not bad!
I really want to see min squads of bike work, I like these mobile sacrificial units. Giving them kustom shootas is worth it, IMO. On a KFF bikermek, that's only a 4% cost increase, that's a no brainer, me thinks!
And then, I remembered bikers boss nobz and KFF bikermeks can't have kustom shootas. Damn. Forget about all this and carry on living your lives, guys.
Nobz bikerz (if the'd be worth it) and bikebosses would benefit from kustom shootas, but kombi-skorchas are better...
Unfortunately Warbiker Boss Nob only gets to swap his choppa for other Choppy Weapon But on Biker Mek or Biker Boss it could be nice. Combi-Skorcha could also work nice, but a lil more expensive.
Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
Azhday wrote: Unfortunately Warbiker Boss Nob only gets to swap his choppa for other Choppy Weapon But on Biker Mek or Biker Boss it could be nice. Combi-Skorcha could also work nice, but a lil more expensive.
Yeah, it's what I remembered after my analysis. I thought it was still worth sharing to my fellow ork warbosses! But a KFF biker mek can't have a kustom shoota, because he has a KFF. And nobody would use a non-KFF biker mek...
MrVulcanator wrote: Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
Your lists won't be fantastic, but in general with orks, when you do something, you need to overdo it. If you want walkers, bring at least 6 killa kanz and 3 dreads, a gorkanaut, and fill in the extra points with more walkers. I recommend 9 kanz to use as a screen (so what grots are good at anyway), 3 dreads, at least one of which has skorchas, and a gorkanaut-morkanaut combo. The morkanaut is worse, yes, but it has a lot of KFF coverage due to its large base and is just as durable granted you don't roll 1's for its kustom weapons. It pretty much only works if you also have a gorkanaut. Throw in a few big meks for repairs and you've got a decent list. Nothing fantastic, but at least your army will look cooler than your opponent's.
If you want flyers, bring a bunch- ours are pretty flimsy. The burna bomma is completely worse than the blitza bomma. The burna is more expensive and does less damage. It really should be much cheaper. The dakkajet is decent and the blitza bomma is a good source of mortal wounds on large squads.
MrVulcanator wrote: Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
It is just possible that orks will be fixed next week, at least partially. If so, any advice we give now will be moot.
MrVulcanator wrote: Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
I've fielded walkers + burna bommers a couple of times and it works ok against armies that have no codex yet - tau, necrons, dark eldar, daemons and the like. Don't expect miracles, a couple of lucky d6 damage rolls will simply make you lose, but it is possible to win games.
However, all models involved are horribly overcosted currently, a space marine player can replace ever single walker and plane with one of his and have a vastly better army than an ork could field.
Chapter approved is due next week, we all are hoping for some major point drops across the board, plus we get additional stratagems and warlord traits, which might help as well. Until then, don't spent any money on models unless it's an insanely good deal.
MrVulcanator wrote: Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
Your lists won't be fantastic, but in general with orks, when you do something, you need to overdo it. If you want walkers, bring at least 6 killa kanz and 3 dreads, a gorkanaut, and fill in the extra points with more walkers. I recommend 9 kanz to use as a screen (so what grots are good at anyway), 3 dreads, at least one of which has skorchas, and a gorkanaut-morkanaut combo. The morkanaut is worse, yes, but it has a lot of KFF coverage due to its large base and is just as durable granted you don't roll 1's for its kustom weapons. It pretty much only works if you also have a gorkanaut. Throw in a few big meks for repairs and you've got a decent list. Nothing fantastic, but at least your army will look cooler than your opponent's.
I wouldn't bother with a morkanaut just for the KFF. You can have 3 big meks for the same points, which means three walkers regaining d3 wounds each turn (make sure to get the grot oiler), and you army can split into three, which it cannot if it needs to stay close to one KFF naut. A unit of kanz with a KFF are frustratingly good objective campers, since their shooting is actually decent, you are not losing anything. Kanz with either rokkits or KMB are a way better unit than deff dreads.
If you want flyers, bring a bunch- ours are pretty flimsy. The burna bomma is completely worse than the blitza bomma. The burna is more expensive and does less damage. It really should be much cheaper. The dakkajet is decent and the blitza bomma is a good source of mortal wounds on large squads.
The burna bommer actually does more damage and only costs almost the same, since it has one more BS 4+ big shoota and will explode into a huge ball of fire on a 4+. Against infantry both bombs do exactly the same damage, and neither bomb should be dropped on anything else.
The best you can do is fly your burna bommer into the middle of his army, bomb and shoot some expensive infantry unit (no horde units), and then either use a CP to make sure it puts mortal wounds on everything when it dies, or drop another bomb next turn.
Any one tried out Supa-kannon Battlewagons? Had any luck with them?
You can get 7 Kannons for the same price, so equal to average Supa-kannon shots, but Grots are better at shooting.
On the other hand BWs are harder to kill, can move more (and still shoot), have smaller footprint and Supa-kannon has 60' range.
MrVulcanator wrote: Seeing as there is a WAAAAAAGH of ork players here I'd like to ask for advice.
I've been thinking Tyranids, but I looked at ork models again, and I just love 'em.
I'm not interested in the boy spam or weirdboy spam. What are my options for something else? I like the idea of walkers and maybe some aircraft, the burna bomma looks pretty good. I need to be able to TAC.
I'd suggest to wait for the codex. At the moment the only orks lists that work (even in friendly games) are green tides and maybe dread mobs. Both of them are very thematic and if you don't love those specific styles of playing you may get bored very soon. I don't dislike ork walkers for example, but a full dread mob IMHO is extremely limitating and dull and I don't know if it can be properly TAC.
Unfortunately mixed styles are not working with the current index. Buy (and paint) the models you like most, those ones you would have get anyway, regardless of their effectiveness in the game.
I think its time to face facts, Orks are still and always will be, the comic relief faction that they put zero effort into, and are basically there to forge the narrative as they are blown to bits by all and sundry.
Had high hopes for 8th edition, but if this is the strategem they choose to highlight the "cool new things" it doesn't bode well that they understand the issues surrounding orks being unplayable right now
Let's for once try not to cry for the sky to be falling until we have all the info.
Not that I'm not disappointed by that stratagem as well... even with a unit of lootaz or warbikers shooting 45 shots, you get an average of 2.5 additional hits, which is about two additional models worth of shooting.
It also cannot be used on artillery (they are vehicles), kanz, koptaz, buggies, nauts, planes or battlewagons.
Best value would be on - wait for it - nob bikerz with kustom shootaz. Well that, or just throw it on the SAG and hope for hot dice
Chapter approved rumour...
1CP 2 infantry units within 2" of each other and one contains more than 10 models and the other less than 10 models, you may combine them into a single unit for the rest of the game at the end of the movement phase
This sounds fun, hope its true.
The sky may not be falling but my enthusiasm for my main army and this hobby certainly is, sadly. I'll still hold onto plenty of hope that we have some far better stratagems to come as well as some more direct improvements to the faction as a whole. 1CP for this stratagem compared to 2CP for Endless Cacophony, that's quite a large difference in usability. I'll certainly stick to spending all my CP on re-rolls and Sewer Rats (when playing Cities of Death) or auto-passing morale of this is the best we get in Chapter Approved. With all the modifiers to to-hit rolls that are around it seems far better to just not invest in shooting at all, this stratagem won't change that for me.
I hope they added this Stratagem just to fill up the Ork page and that there will be actually useful Stratagems in both CA and Codex.
Math:
30x Shoota Boyz = 10 bonus attacks; 3.33 bonus hits
15x Lootaz (average roll of 1.5 for number of attacks) = 3.75 bonus attacks; 1.25 bonus hit
15x Lootaz (that rolled 3 on number of attacks) = 7.5 bonus attacks; 2.5 bonus hits
15x Tankbustas = 2.5 bonus attacks; 0.833 bonus hits
15x Tankbustas (vs. Vechicle) = 2.5 bonus attacks + 1.66 bonus attacks after rerolls; 0.833 bonus hits (from 2.5 bonus attacks) + 0.277 bonus hits (from reroll of those bonus attacks that failed) + 0.5533 bonus hits (from bonus attacks after rerolls of failed regular attacks) + 0.18511 bonus hits (from rerolls of bonus attacks made after rerolling regular attacks that failed) so all together SUM = 1.84889 bonus hits (I'm not really sure this is accurate and even if it is accurate I don't know if you can add up those bonus attacks/hits like that, pls help x)
I am counting it as you get only one bonus attack, not full attacks of weapon. I was too lazy to calculate bonus wounds. And all that without "to hit" penalties.
Works nice on anything that can reroll misses, so full Tankbustas (vs. Vehicles) and full Flash Gits with full Runts and Badrukk.
I would guess that the best use would be Flashgits that have not moved with Badrukk. Not saying that would be a great unit, just perhaps the best use of a meh, stratagem. Orks simply don't hit enough for it to be all that great. Marines have a similar stratagem that is OK, but that is because say 6 extra attacks convert to 4 hits not 2.
We'll see what the Codex actually holds next year - for now, my hope is that this Stratagem is a stop-gap one; one that's just to tide us over until more revised and tested options are in the codex//and/or the feedback+performance regarding it will be taken into consideration, and revised in the Codex.
I mean, it doesn't even work if you're shooting at a unit with -1 to hit.
So I'm thinking a mechanized spam list right now. I'm playing a league that increases poinst by 50 every week. We will reach 650 after Christmas. The league caps at 1400 eventually. My current shopping list is:
MrVulcanator wrote: So I'm thinking a mechanized spam list right now. I'm playing a league that increases poinst by 50 every week. We will reach 650 after Christmas. The league caps at 1400 eventually. My current shopping list is:
2x Big Meks
9x Killa Kans
1x Gorkanaut.
With those units you are going to loose nine out of ten games. I you want to win, you need boyz. Lots of boyz.
MrVulcanator wrote: So I'm thinking a mechanized spam list right now. I'm playing a league that increases poinst by 50 every week. We will reach 650 after Christmas. The league caps at 1400 eventually. My current shopping list is:
2x Big Meks
9x Killa Kans
1x Gorkanaut.
Get at least one deff dread to mix with the kanz. Kanz are too weak to field on their own. In fact, 2 dreads and 3 kanz is probably better than 9 kanz.
Some naftka rumors point to a potentially useful stratagem, however. Basically, if one unit has more than 10 models, and another within 2" has less than 10, the two can merge and form one unit.
If that just lets you form one unit of boyz from a large one and a small one that's.........ok, ish.
But if you could fit say, meganobz or an HQ into a large unit of boyz, that could be amazing.
Also a rumor for a warlord trait of +1 strength (ok-ish), and a marginal melee weapon.
It is an additional 16.7% hits out of any unit, really. Kind of lame when you think about it.
Apparently Orks are not meant to shoot.
Unfortunately it's not an additional 16.7% hits. Hit rolls of 6 generate an additional attack, which itself still needs to hit. So if you shot 45 times with a maxed-out unit of Lootas, you'd hit on average 15 times, and half of those hits would be 6's. You'd then generate an extra 7.5 attacks, which hit around twice.
We'll see what the Codex actually holds next year - for now, my hope is that this Stratagem is a stop-gap one; one that's just to tide us over until more revised and tested options are in the codex//and/or the feedback+performance regarding it will be taken into consideration, and revised in the Codex.
What really worries me is the implications this has for our codex. This reveals their thought processes with Orks; some rules writer actually sat down and said "Yep, this looks great". I'm feeling pretty damn deflated this morning, and a lot of the hope I had for Chapter Approved is just gone at this point. The only thing I'm looking forward to now is points changes, but given that they think this is a decent stratagem, I'm not at all convinced that our points changes are going to be decent.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Some naftka rumors point to a potentially useful stratagem, however. Basically, if one unit has more than 10 models, and another within 2" has less than 10, the two can merge and form one unit.
If that just lets you form one unit of boyz from a large one and a small one that's.........ok, ish.
But if you could fit say, meganobz or an HQ into a large unit of boyz, that could be amazing.
Also a rumor for a warlord trait of +1 strength (ok-ish), and a marginal melee weapon.
The melee weapon looks great, finally giving us some ability to dish out mortal wounds in CC, and makes a Warboss S8 with -2AP. That's pretty good. The +1 strength just seems bad. Warbosses are already S6 so S7 helps none unless you want a S14 PK.
You could also fit 9 tank bustaz, burnaz, nobz, flash gits and more in units of boyz.
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Vitali Advenil wrote: The melee weapon looks great, finally giving us some ability to dish out mortal wounds in CC, and makes a Warboss S8 with -2AP. That's pretty good. The +1 strength just seems bad. Warbosses are already S6 so S7 helps none unless you want a S14 PK.
S14 PKs wound most vehicles and monsters in the game on 2+. I want one.
Jidmah wrote: You could also fit 9 tank bustaz, burnaz, nobz, flash gits and more in units of boyz.
This is what we really need. It allows us to keep specialists safe without outright buffing their stats. Sadly I'm really thinking it's going to only allow you to do that to units of the same type.
Unfortunately it's not an additional 16.7% hits. Hit rolls of 6 generate an additional attack, which itself still needs to hit. So if you shot 45 times with a maxed-out unit of Lootas, you'd hit on average 15 times, and half of those hits would be 6's. You'd then generate an extra 7.5 attacks, which hit around twice.
7.5 shoots will yield 2.5 hits, and 2.5 additional hits is a 16.7% increase on 15 hits. It is not exactly useless, but it is very much meh.
Frankly I'll take the relic if only because the -1 to hit with the PK has completely nerfed the ability of mega armour units to actually be effective in CC for their cost. Too many times has my WB charged in and basically done nothing.
But yeah, 2CP to fire again vs. this thing? Very close to a sense of humour failure here.
Jidmah wrote: You could also fit 9 tank bustaz, burnaz, nobz, flash gits and more in units of boyz.
I strongly suspect the merging units has to be of the same type, otherwise all kinds of gak happens. If a unit of gretchin merges with a unit if kommandos, what is their movement stat? What Toughness? Do they benefit from the Waagh aura, Dangerous in large numbers, or 'Ere we go abilities?
I think such a stratagem will help out boy mobs the most. If a large blob can assimilate understrength mobs, then you can keep the greentide bonus alive longer, and you can concentrate bossnobs and heavy weapons Nobs in your surviving blobs.
The same holds true for warbiker mobs. By merging them you can keep the free boss-nobs alive longer.
Units with ammorunts will also benefit from merging.
Unfortunately it's not an additional 16.7% hits. Hit rolls of 6 generate an additional attack, which itself still needs to hit. So if you shot 45 times with a maxed-out unit of Lootas, you'd hit on average 15 times, and half of those hits would be 6's. You'd then generate an extra 7.5 attacks, which hit around twice.
7.5 shoots will yield 2.5 hits, and 2.5 additional hits is a 16.7% increase on 15 hits. It is not exactly useless, but it is very much meh.
Huh, you're right, sorry about that. Guess I was looking at the total shots, not hits.
Honestly, that dakka stratagem seems like it would be decent as, say, a bad moons klan bonus, but as a stratagem it's pretty awful, now that I think about it.
Dribble Joy wrote: Frankly I'll take the relic if only because the -1 to hit with the PK has completely nerfed the ability of mega armour units to actually be effective in CC for their cost. Too many times has my WB charged in and basically done nothing.
But yeah, 2CP to fire again vs. this thing? Very close to a sense of humour failure here.
Even if they greatly decrease the points of MANz this is probably why I'll never end up bringing them. PKs just don't do damage anymore between AP being nerfed, instant death no longer a thing, and MANz losing an attack.
The Dakka stratagem say you can make another "attack using the same weapon". Does that mean that a Shoota boy can fire another 2 shots for each 6 rolled or is it only 1 shot per 6 rolled?
tilds wrote: The Dakka stratagem say you can make another "attack using the same weapon". Does that mean that a Shoota boy can fire another 2 shots for each 6 rolled or is it only 1 shot per 6 rolled?
It's just one attack from the same weapon, and weapons have an attack stat. It's just one extra shot, not an entirely new round of shooting.
That's disappointing, hopefully the points changes will make up for it. That or we get lucky and have another stratagem to use that isn't so lacklustre, ideally one that prevents enemy units from falling back from a chosen unit of boyz, maybe called something like "Mob em!".
At least the relic is decent. They could have doubled down the insult of Orks sucking at shooting by giving us a crappy shoota ranged relic.
Grimskul wrote: That's disappointing, hopefully the points changes will make up for it. That or we get lucky and have another stratagem to use that isn't so lacklustre, ideally one that prevents enemy units from falling back from a chosen unit of boyz, maybe called something like "Mob em!".
At least the relic is decent. They could have doubled down the insult of Orks sucking at shooting by giving us a crappy shoota ranged relic.
I really do expect something like a "Get Stuck In" CP that prevents any unit from falling back. Course it'll cost us 3CP and only work on a 4+ roll.
Underwhelmed by reveal the warlord trait is mostly useless except bc warboss even then fnp or Exta atk better.
Relic is decent but it's just s bc that can do mortal wounds.
Strategem I don't see a huge benefit and it's situational.
The other strategem sounds too broken and I expect the rumor was lost in translation I expect at best astra militarum combined squads.
I like the Warlord Trait and the Relic, if they are accurate.
The Stratagem doesn't seem very good at first glance. Might be good for Tankbustas (it would be a reason to take Rokkit Pistols). If there are other things in Chapter Approved or the Codex that grant re-rolls, bonuses to hit or maybe even more extra attacks then this might be better than it appears.
Now this just occurred to me and correct me if I am wrong, but I was reading an FAQ and one of the questions was about character that had other models with them such as genestealer familiars and a patriarch. In it it said that a unit with the character keyword could not be targetted in the shooting phase unless it was the closest target. If you combine a character with another unit that would make that entire unit count as a character. If thats the case then boom that unit cannot be shot at which unless its the closest thus protecting that unit if you have ANYTHING closer. That sounds halfway useful so it does have me doubling down on thinking you can only combine units of the same type. :(
However it works out (if the rumor is anywhere close to being accurate) I'm excited because the old mob rule back in 3rd edition where a fleeing squad could join up with another squad was really fun. I'm really hoping a lot of the old, fun, flavorful stuff gets added back in the form of stratagems.
Ashkayel wrote: One trukk is wrecked, 3 boyz die in the process, 9 boyz remaining join another trukk boyz mob, 21 boyz total, green tide rule +1A, yay!
This was my first thought as well, that trukk boyz could benefit hugely from "mobbing up" like in the old 3rd edition codex. The good old days are coming back!
Hopefully it applies to any ork infantry unit and not just Boyz, it's a great way of giving small squads another layer of insulation against morale casualties.
Combining 9 Nobz with 30 Boyz and Da Jumping right to the enemy's face sounds a bit too good to be true to be honest. I mean that might make Orks competitive, and we can't have that now can we?
JimOnMars wrote: Dakka Dakka Dakka increases normal orks to BS 4.666+.
Tankbustas against vehicles BS 3.75 +
Mek guns are at BS 3.5+.
Bomb squigs....
BOMB SQUIGS!
Against vehicles...as I calculate it....
BS 0.03+ (for every 6 squigs, you hit 6.97 times.)
Check my math.
Also...has anyone else missed the fact that a unit of 15 tankbustas can take 6 squigs? I need so many more...
The stratagem improves hits by 16,7 % on shootas, tankbustas and bombsquigs. It is not useless, but it is not very useful either. If we could have used the stratagem with the deffrolla, that would have been awesome.
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Weazel wrote: Combining 9 Nobz with 30 Boyz and Da Jumping right to the enemy's face sounds a bit too good to be true to be honest. I mean that might make Orks competitive, and we can't have that now can we?
But you can combine 10 Nobz + 10 ammo runts with 9 Nobz and then jump the lot.
Weazel wrote: Combining 9 Nobz with 30 Boyz and Da Jumping right to the enemy's face sounds a bit too good to be true to be honest. I mean that might make Orks competitive, and we can't have that now can we?
But you can combine 10 Nobz + 10 ammo runts with 9 Nobz and then jump the lot.
Well sure, but I kinda like the idea of 30 ablative wounds when you don't make the charge. 19 Nobs gets expensive real fast. But a huge Nob unit would be hilarious no question.
I doubt that "make an extra attack" is just a +1 dice that you still have to hit with. That is laughable once you start doing math.
I think it is just poor wording for "shoot again with the same weapon". Because if we are going with literal RAW it gives you a +1 MELEE attack which makes 0 sense.
So, big shoota shoots 3 times, misses once and gets two sixes. It shoots again for every of these sixes, generating additional 6 shots, which can't generate more shots anymore. Not King of shooting but at least this is something. If it is actually a +1 shot, then whoever made this just wanted to troll ork players or is very poor at math/balancing.
Compare 1CP Dakka Dakka to Mordia stratagem for 1 CP which almost word by word is similar but does the same much better
JawRippa wrote: I doubt that "make an extra attack" is just a +1 dice that you still have to hit with. That is laughable once you start doing math.
I think it is just poor wording for "shoot again with the same weapon". Because if we are going with literal RAW it gives you a +1 MELEE attack which makes 0 sense.
So, big shoota shoots 3 times, misses once and gets two sixes. It shoots again for every of these sixes, generating additional 6 shots, which can't generate more shots anymore. Not King of shooting but at least this is something. If it is actually a +1 shot, then whoever made this just wanted to troll ork players or is very poor at math/balancing.
Compare 1CP Dakka Dakka to Mordia stratagem for 1 CP which almost word by word is similar but does the same much better
It still does not clear up things, though. If it is just a +1 shot that you still have to hit with, then that is just garbage. If it is a whole extra shooting salvo with weapon like Mordian stratagem, then it is actually usable.
Also, kinda dickish way to reply from GW.
koooaei wrote: Making a mob of 30 boyz count as characters is hilarious. They could even probably use heroic intervention.
Nah, they'll probably make it so you can't combine units with different toughness, saves and no characters in there to avoid shenanigans.
It still does not clear up things, though. If it is just a +1 shot that you still have to hit with, then that is just garbage. If it is a whole extra shooting salvo with weapon like Mordian stratagem, then it is actually usable.
Also, kinda dickish way to reply from GW.
koooaei wrote: Making a mob of 30 boyz count as characters is hilarious. They could even probably use heroic intervention.
Nah, they'll probably make it so you can't combine units with different toughness, saves and no characters in there to avoid shenanigans.
I think we can take that answer as evidence that the ork codex will be about close combat only, say goodbye to ork shooting forever...
JawRippa wrote: I doubt that "make an extra attack" is just a +1 dice that you still have to hit with. That is laughable once you start doing math.
I think it is just poor wording for "shoot again with the same weapon". Because if we are going with literal RAW it gives you a +1 MELEE attack which makes 0 sense.
Actually, an "attack" with a shooting weapon is pretty well defined as a single shot. Check the shooting phase rules.
That reply from GW... wow, just wow. If only there were a way that GW didn't feth up ork rules this time.
An identical strategem for 6+ to-hits generating extra hits could be ok for mellee. Taking into consideration banner nobz.
Also, it's too early to say that 6+ to hit strategem is bad. It could be pretty good if we get easy access to +1 to-hit at range. Dakkabanner or something. Dakkajets get +1 to hit iirc. Could be something like this.
koooaei wrote: An identical strategem for 6+ to-hits generating extra hits could be ok for mellee. Taking into consideration banner nobz.
Also, it's too early to say that 6+ to hit strategem is bad. It could be pretty good if we get easy access to +1 to-hit at range. Dakkabanner or something. Dakkajets get +1 to hit iirc. Could be something like this.
Yeah, but that's going to be in the codex we're not getting yet. Currently you have a good chance to spend 1 CP for a pile of nothing. Even with 45 loota shoots, the chance of actually damaging the target with those extra shots is pretty low. I have not done the math, but I'd bet using the CP to re-roll a failed to wound roll might do almost as much as this.
I don't mind stratagems like the DG one allowing an entire unit to throw grenades, if you have others that are fun and/or good.
But right now we just got a nice relic, a weak warlord trait and a stratagem that does next to nothing. All three scream "we don't know how to orks" just like the supplement that shall not be named did, which makes me worried. Those point drops better be awesome.
Currently, I'd prefer throwing grenades with an entire unit of boyz over Dakka Dakka Dakka.
I love Dakka dakka dakka strat. I'm thinking about putting it on some flash gitz for some added damage.
You pop the asset and then shoot with the flash gitz. You hit on 4+/5+. Any 6 generates more shots. You can boost this some more by putting Badrukk nearby to reroll 1's. Getting you another chance to get a 6. Then you get to roll add see if you get to shoot again with the flash gitz. If it goes off, you get to do this all over again Flash gitz are still under the effect of the dakka strat.
The relic can be really cool to use. I'm thinking warboss in ma with power klaw and big chopa then change out for the relic. Makes him kind of like a chapter master with power fist and lighting claw.
So, it is pretty much confirmed by gw that Rowboat Girlyman and Celestine will get a price-hike, while our own gorkamorkanaut will get a price reduction. Yeah, and Malefic Lords are now 80 points, which is hilarious.
I apologize if this has already been answered (I read the first 35 pages, but haven't finished this thread yet), as I can't seem to find a "search this thread" option, But...
I'm starting a fledgling ork army, with some boyz and gretchins (I don't care if they suck, I loves the grotz!). I'm bashing some toys into a trukk for the boyz and a battlewagon for the gretchin.
Setting aside whether gretchin in a battlewagon makes sense tactically or not (they built it, it's THEIR wagon, and they're not giving it up), if you DID have a battlewagon full of gretchin, what equipment would you put on it? I'm modelling it with a deff-rolla (just because that looks cool, and the farm-toy happened to have a roller I can use) so that leaves the choice of big shootas vs rockits (maybe a mixture?) and kannon/lobber/zapp gun.
I also have a piece from a little back-hoe that could easily become a grabbin-klaw if it's worth adding.
On the trukk the question is shoota vs rockit, and is a wreckin' ball worth it? (that same back-hoe piece could also become a wreckin' ball, and since it only costs $1 I can go get another if I want both a klaw for the wagon and a ball for the trukk)
If we are not caring about tactics the answer is whatever you want to put on it. At the moment my answer is typically nothing but a deff rolla. I would suggest waiting a week or 2 and seeing what changes are in chapter approved because the "optimal" load out may well be different when points change.
It's not so much that I don't care about tactics, but that I'm insisting on a wagon-o-grotz, and within that boundary i'd like to minimize the suck, if that makes sense? It will be a bit before I get as far as mounting weapons anyways, I'm still constructing the wagon/trukk beds, and can probably make magnetized weapon mounts (or at least make the mounts weapon-agnostic and wait to glue on a gun/rockit once the new info comes out)
Coh Magnussen wrote: I apologize if this has already been answered (I read the first 35 pages, but haven't finished this thread yet), as I can't seem to find a "search this thread" option, But...
I'm starting a fledgling ork army, with some boyz and gretchins (I don't care if they suck, I loves the grotz!). I'm bashing some toys into a trukk for the boyz and a battlewagon for the gretchin.
Setting aside whether gretchin in a battlewagon makes sense tactically or not (they built it, it's THEIR wagon, and they're not giving it up), if you DID have a battlewagon full of gretchin, what equipment would you put on it? I'm modelling it with a deff-rolla (just because that looks cool, and the farm-toy happened to have a roller I can use) so that leaves the choice of big shootas vs rockits (maybe a mixture?) and kannon/lobber/zapp gun.
I also have a piece from a little back-hoe that could easily become a grabbin-klaw if it's worth adding.
On the trukk the question is shoota vs rockit, and is a wreckin' ball worth it? (that same back-hoe piece could also become a wreckin' ball, and since it only costs $1 I can go get another if I want both a klaw for the wagon and a ball for the trukk)
Hey!
I'd say short range stuff for the BW since you'll want the 20 grots to shoot (12") at 3+ BS. So Deffrolla and.... hmm ... only Deffrolla?
For the trukk, it may change because of the points changes so I'd say magnetize them or wait for the update. I converted all my big shootas into rokkit launchas in the last few years since BS and RL were the same cost. Now RL are more expensive... As for the wrecking ball, personally I'm not sure if it's worth it (even if it's only 3 pts). I mean, you won't hit anyway... When in doubt, magnetize?
Hmm, and regarding the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem, 20 grots would get extra shots on 5-6, so that means 33% more shots (compared to 16.7% for the other units). It is still bad compared to other statagems, but...
Coh Magnussen wrote: It's not so much that I don't care about tactics, but that I'm insisting on a wagon-o-grotz, and within that boundary i'd like to minimize the suck, if that makes sense? It will be a bit before I get as far as mounting weapons anyways, I'm still constructing the wagon/trukk beds, and can probably make magnetized weapon mounts (or at least make the mounts weapon-agnostic and wait to glue on a gun/rockit once the new info comes out)
Wagon with only Deffrolla and bunch of Grots inside would be hillarious. Just charge with Battlewagon into some infantry and try to run them over while Grots shoot cose Pistols can shoot while in CC. You just need to count Grots as Pistols added to BW and not BW as a transport for Grots xD
The big mek with shokk attack gun lost a lot of power and fun, and deserves to either be a good option for shooting, or fun again.
I had a bit of an idea about that the other day. What if we took the Stompa Supa-Gatler's rule "Psycho-Dakka-Blasta" rule and made it an army wide-special rule? Just change a few words around of course.
An Ork unit can fire its weapons more than once in your Shooting phase. To fire it's weapons a second time, roll a D6; on a 2+, the unit can make the attack. On a 1, the unit's ammo has been expended and their weapons can no longer be used for the rest of the battle.
To fire their weapons a third time in your Shooting phase, roll a D6; on a 5+, you can make the attack. On a 4 or less, the unit's ammo has been expended, and their weapons can no longer be used for the rest of the battle.
Now, this would have to come alongside points drops for many Ork shooting units. But it's fun and fluffy, gives Orks something a bit unique for their shooting phase, and for many units, dumping all their ammo on potentially 3 shooting phases in one turn could be reasonably effective, even if they can't shoot for the rest of the battle.
Zomnivore wrote: I had a bit of an idea about that the other day. What if we took the Stompa Supa-Gatler's rule "Psycho-Dakka-Blasta" rule and made it an army wide-special rule? Just change a few words around of course.
An Ork unit can fire its weapons more than once in your Shooting phase. To fire it's weapons a second time, roll a D6; on a 2+, the unit can make the attack. On a 1, the unit's ammo has been expended and their weapons can no longer be used for the rest of the battle.
To fire their weapons a third time in your Shooting phase, roll a D6; on a 5+, you can make the attack. On a 4 or less, the unit's ammo has been expended, and their weapons can no longer be used for the rest of the battle.
Now, this would have to come alongside points drops for many Ork shooting units. But it's fun and fluffy, gives Orks something a bit unique for their shooting phase, and for many units, dumping all their ammo on potentially 3 shooting phases in one turn could be reasonably effective, even if they can't shoot for the rest of the battle.
That would be awesome! Gotta keep those rerolls strategems for the unlucky 1s on your second loota shots!
I like to pretend that Bad Moonz Klan rule will be +1 to Ballistic skill and no negative modifiers. Ork shooting might be viable if that were to occur.
Setting aside whether gretchin in a battlewagon makes sense tactically or not (they built it, it's THEIR wagon, and they're not giving it up), if you DID have a battlewagon full of gretchin, what equipment would you put on it? I'm modelling it with a deff-rolla (just because that looks cool, and the farm-toy happened to have a roller I can use) so that leaves the choice of big shootas vs rockits (maybe a mixture?) and kannon/lobber/zapp gun.
For the battlewagon with grots you want it to be open-topped with a deff-rolla and nothing else. You want it to get stuck in combat, where the 20 grots will be allowed to shoot because they have pistols. And they will hit on a 3+ because of numbers. In fact the new dakka stratagem might be perfect for them, as they will trigger it on a 5+. Maybe this is the solution to Ork shooting?
Setting aside whether gretchin in a battlewagon makes sense tactically or not (they built it, it's THEIR wagon, and they're not giving it up), if you DID have a battlewagon full of gretchin, what equipment would you put on it? I'm modelling it with a deff-rolla (just because that looks cool, and the farm-toy happened to have a roller I can use) so that leaves the choice of big shootas vs rockits (maybe a mixture?) and kannon/lobber/zapp gun.
For the battlewagon with grots you want it to be open-topped with a deff-rolla and nothing else. You want it to get stuck in combat, where the 20 grots will be allowed to shoot because they have pistols. And they will hit on a 3+ because of numbers. In fact the new dakka stratagem might be perfect for them, as they will trigger it on a 5+. Maybe this is the solution to Ork shooting?
20 grots in BW. 13 hits (first round), 6 5s, rerolling for 4 more hits.
17 st 3 hits while the deffrolla chews things...would be pretty good if the bw got a point drop.
5th edition: I hope we get a new codex to help fix these problems.
6th Edition: god I hope we get a new codex, we are unplayable at this point
7th edition (Release): ohh thank god! We got a new codex....it's not that great...but maybe GW is toning down the game!!
7th Edition (Necron/SM released): Ah feth. We better get a supplement to help us.
7th edition (first supplement and Red Waaagh); This is still mostly crap, they better fix this and give us something competitive.
7th edition (2nd supplement and Wazbom): alright time to pack it in. Maybe 8th will be able to fix these issues.
8th edition release: well it's not great but boyz aren't terrible....but that's about it, maybe we will get one of the 1st 10 codexs and some buffs!
Seems they do know. Just look at how stable things are.
8th edition after all 2017 releases: Maybe chapter approved will help
8th edition after sneak preview: *we are here.
If you really think at this point GW knows what they are doing with the Ork army then you must be the most happy go lucky person in the world
Seems they do know. Just look at how consistent things are.
Jokes aside, we've pretty much always had at least one or two really good competitive builds.
5-th had kan wallz and wagon rushes, also greentide wasn't too bad if not top notch but it pretty much countered the parking lot razorback meta of mid and late 5-th 6-th had nob biker deathstars
7-th had greentide for a short while, fw underpriced stompa and biker spam and than bully boyz
8-th has greentide and it's variations so far
Not that we have had tons of great options but we could pretty much always make a competitive army. It's wrong to say that orks have "always been bad". Look at marines. Their competitive unit percentage is even lower than for orks. Because they have more units. But still.
The biggest insult in that GW post is that they do not even try to acknowledge that orks have a legitimate problem with variety even for fun lists. I've tried comming up with a list that does not make use of weirdboys - because I don't like them fluffwise - and it is really hard to do so, even when my opponent does not play cheesy army.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
That facebook answer was like answering to a "excuse me, the car you sold me has broken conditioning system" with "well, too bad you can't open side windows when you are riding it". The question was a legitimate concern that an opportunity to make gameplay for a specific army more fun is being wasted.
koooaei wrote: Seems they do know. Just look at how consistent things are.
Jokes aside, we've pretty much always had at least one or two really good competitive builds.
5-th had kan wallz and wagon rushes, also greentide wasn't too bad if not top notch but it pretty much countered the parking lot razorback meta of mid and late 5-th 6-th had nob biker deathstars
7-th had greentide for a short while, fw underpriced stompa and biker spam and than bully boyz
8-th has greentide and it's variations so far
Not that we have had tons of great options but we could pretty much always make a competitive army. It's wrong to say that orks have "always been bad". Look at marines. Their competitive unit percentage is even lower than for orks. Because they have more units. But still.
Biker nobz was 5th edition, you could even use it in the same list as bw rushes. 6th edition wound allocation removal of cybork and point increase with the codex all but killed them. Some people also had some decent success with Wazzdakka and MSU bikes, plus green tide and footsloggers were different armies (green tide was all boyz, footslogger had lootaz, big guns, koptaz and other things). In total there was bw bash, kan wall, footsloggers, green tide, trukk rush, nob bikers, kult of speed for a total of 7 builds that could expect to do well in tournaments.
Green tide was 6th, the 7th edition supplement update removed that and added it back later. There were also some armies which relied on DLSMA Warbosses you could still make BW rush work before tau and eldar codices dropped.
In 7th, I don't think any ork lists could actually stand against a competitive army, though I take your word for the bully boyz working well. I simply dropped WH40k when I was basically forced to buy 15 MANz (200€) and 5+ mek gunz (150€) to keep playing my army, despite owning over 6000 points of orks already and would do so again. And no, kitbashing is not an option for me.
So in 6th and 7th you had some armies which were not auto-losing you games, but orks have not been in a good shape since we lost our 5th edition codex.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
Yes, 16.7% of shots, which is okay if a unit has decent ballistic skill. But for orks additional ~16% means roughly 5% increase since only 1/3 of those additional shots will connect. Also I've realised that that stratagem has anti-synergy with the fact that our infantry uses assault weapons and won't work when you are advancing.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
Re-rolling hit rolls of 1 is also terrible for orks... plus other armies just get it as a bubble on one of their HQs and don't have to pay a CP for one unit.
There simply is no reason to waste a CP on this stratagem unless you're shooting something you really, really need dead with either tank bustas or lootas.
Biker nobz was 5th edition, you could even use it in the same list as bw rushes. 6th edition wound allocation removal of cybork and point increase with the codex all but killed them. Some people also had some decent success with Wazzdakka and MSU bikes, plus green tide and footsloggers were different armies (green tide was all boyz, footslogger had lootaz, big guns, koptaz and other things). In total there was bw bash, kan wall, footsloggers, green tide, trukk rush, nob bikers, kult of speed for a total of 7 builds that could expect to do well in tournaments.
Green tide was 6th, the 7th edition supplement update removed that and added it back later. There were also some armies which relied on DLSMA Warbosses you could still make BW rush work before tau and eldar codices dropped.
In 7th, I don't think any ork lists could actually stand against a competitive army, though I take your word for the bully boyz working well. I simply dropped WH40k when I was basically forced to buy 15 MANz (200€) and 5+ mek gunz (150€) to keep playing my army, despite owning over 6000 points of orks already and would do so again. And no, kitbashing is not an option for me.
So in 6th and 7th you had some armies which were not auto-losing you games, but orks have not been in a good shape since we lost our 5th edition codex.
That's correct - 5-th had the most variety of viable builds. But i think you're wrong about 6-th nob bikers not being competitive. Maybe not over the top good but they did quite well in rather competitive metas up until the codex update. Multiple nob biker mini-deathstars + lobbas and msu grots was placing high in tourneys. Have never won anything that i remember but was tough to face.
Do you think it'd be broken if it was houseruled to be "additional shooting for every 6" rather than "additional shot"? Kinda like stratagem for Mordians.
Also he-e-ey, this stratagem of ours is basically a tactic of Tempestus, who get it for free for all army?
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
Yes, 16.7% of shots, which is okay if a unit has decent ballistic skill. But for orks additional ~16% means roughly 5% increase since only 1/3 of those additional shots will connect. Also I've realised that that stratagem has anti-synergy with the fact that our infantry uses assault weapons and won't work when you are advancing.
No, it is a 16.7% increase of hits, leading to a 16.7% increase of damage. It is not great, but it is greater than 5%.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
Yes, 16.7% of shots, which is okay if a unit has decent ballistic skill. But for orks additional ~16% means roughly 5% increase since only 1/3 of those additional shots will connect. Also I've realised that that stratagem has anti-synergy with the fact that our infantry uses assault weapons and won't work when you are advancing.
No, it is a 16.7% increase of hits, leading to a 16.7% increase of damage. It is not great, but it is greater than 5%.
it's a 16.7% to get an extra shot that hits 33.3% of the time leading to a 5.55% damage increase total. Or to 0% if the target is one of the numerous units with -1 to hit.
I've realised that there is more merit in rerolling, say D6 for number of shots for some grot artillery or D3 for lootas than spending 1 CP just to boost number of hits by target infantry unit by ~5%.
The stratagem increases output by 16.7% That is not great but it is a lot better than 5%. It is pretty much the same as "reroll hit-rolls of 1".
Apart from that, I think we should go easy on the doom and gloom before we have have read Chapter Approved and the Ork Codex in its entirety.
Yes, 16.7% of shots, which is okay if a unit has decent ballistic skill. But for orks additional ~16% means roughly 5% increase since only 1/3 of those additional shots will connect. Also I've realised that that stratagem has anti-synergy with the fact that our infantry uses assault weapons and won't work when you are advancing.
No, it is a 16.7% increase of hits, leading to a 16.7% increase of damage. It is not great, but it is greater than 5%.
it's a 16.7% to get an extra shot that hits 33.3% of the time leading to a 5.55% damage increase total. Or to 0% if the target is one of the numerous units with -1 to hit.
By that logic shooting twice should only lead to 33% more hits?
A 16.7% increase in number of shots will lead to a 16.7% increase in number of hits, irrespective of BS. Regards
koooaei wrote: That's correct - 5-th had the most variety of viable builds. But i think you're wrong about 6-th nob bikers not being competitive. Maybe not over the top good but they did quite well in rather competitive metas up until the codex update. Multiple nob biker mini-deathstars + lobbas and msu grots was placing high in tourneys. Have never won anything that i remember but was tough to face.
Right, lobba sniping was a thing. I don't know about the nob stars though, they might have worked until tau, daemons and eldar dropped, but definitely not after that.
Tau in 6-th were mostly riptide spam which nob bikers had no real problems against or farsight bombs which were a real problem but such lists almost died out after a while. Eldar were waveserpent spam which was ok if you got 1-st turn and an auto-loose if you didn't and he didn't roll abysmal for d6 shots. I remember it quite well. Daemons were always a mystery to me cause i started loosing interest before the game started with the amount of random gak they got to roll all the time and after a couple games (even with 50/50 winrate) i simply tried to avoid daemons outside tourneys. And in tourneys it was just fmc spam. It all went down to daemons either rolling hot enough to avoid grounding tests and than orks got demolished or daemons getting unlucky and falling from the sky getting their tusked or beaked faces kicked.
Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time. We might occasionally sneak a win or a top 10 appearance in but we are consistently under performing compared to most armies. In 7th edition did any Ork player place well with bully boyz or any list except green tide (and even then only for a short while) in major tournaments? Basically 7th we had competitive lists so long as our opponents weren't playing their best lists. Same for 6th and so far in 8th we have one viable build for competitive games and apparently we can add Squiggoth to it
It boils down to this. Do you want a 16.7% increase on 20 hits or on 40 hits?
For it to be "as good" for Orkz it should be "Every hit generates an extra shot". That would result in a 33% increase so now those 20 hits are 26. Still not worth doing but at least it isn't ridiculously crap.
Or you could go all in on this strategy and say it increases BS by 1 and all hits generate another shot. So now 60 shots = 45 hits at S4. That isnt bad dakka.
For 10 lootas that's 15 hits on average with that strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw. 45 S4 hits against Marines = 7 dead marines or 3-4 dead Marines in cover.
15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).
Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?
No one is arguing that the dakkadakka stratagem is good, as there are stratagems out there that boosts a units shooting by 100%. Guard even has an order that doubles the shooting of their infantry. So compared to that 16.7% is kind of lame. But still better than 5%.
But even without any buffs Orks will benefit from Guilliman and Celestine getting a points increase. I hope the twin Assault cannon gets the same treatment.
I didn't say the Stratagem is amazing or anything, would be alright as a Klan trait similar to Imperial Fist chapter tactic. As a Stratagem it's quite meh.
Just pointed out that it's still a relative 16.7% increase in hits. And yes you absolutely get more hits with higher BS but relatively it's still the same. Just math geekery at play here.
Weazel wrote: I didn't say the Stratagem is amazing or anything, would be alright as a Klan trait similar to Imperial Fist chapter tactic. As a Stratagem it's quite meh.
Just pointed out that it's still a relative 16.7% increase in hits. And yes you absolutely get more hits with higher BS but relatively it's still the same. Just math geekery at play here.
'Relatively more hits' isn't that great though when Orks generally don't have a way of getting hits to begin with.
Also, we can add this to the list of things Orks have that proves they can't handle anyone with a -1 to hit.
Has anyone seen the rumored relic and Warlord Trait? I'm kind of disappointed. The souped-up Big Choppa (Allegedly: Melee S: +2, AP2, D3 Wound rolls of 6+ inflict D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage",) is better than nothing since I'm bringing a Big Choppa on a character in pretty much every game to begin with, but the Warlord Trait giving +1 Strength is almost entirely pointless unless you're trying to go vehicle hunting, (Even then, it only helps against T7 OR T8, depending on if you take a Power Klaw or a Big Choppa,) and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.
Waaaghpower wrote: and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.
It all depends on the exact wording. If it only works on units that are the same (two Boyz mobs, or two Grot mobs etc) then it's pretty meh. If it works on any infantry, then it has the potential to be zogging amazing; staple 30 Grots to a squad of Meganobz as ablative wounds, shove Nobz into a unit of Boyz and use Da Jump to throw them forwards, embed Warbosses in mobs...
I sincerely doubt that it will actually work that way because it starts to break the game (how does the Character rule work for starters) but we can dream at least.
SemperMortis wrote: Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time. We might occasionally sneak a win or a top 10 appearance in but we are consistently under performing compared to most armies. In 7th edition did any Ork player place well with bully boyz or any list except green tide (and even then only for a short while) in major tournaments? Basically 7th we had competitive lists so long as our opponents weren't playing their best lists. Same for 6th and so far in 8th we have one viable build for competitive games and apparently we can add Squiggoth to it
SM,
What pray tell would that "single list" be? I am having trouble winning a game against Daemons/Marines/DeathGuard
DrG
SemperMortis wrote: Orkz haven't had a player in the top 100 ITC players in a long time.
For what it is worth, in April 2016 I made it to 9th in the ITC playing nothing but Orks (I only stayed there for about a week). I had 2 RTT wins, a 2nd place, and a 4th place at a GT. I only hit one major that year, and I finished 4-2 for 12th place (maybe 11th can't remember).
My RTT Wins were Oldhammer, and Community Comp events. In my opinion the format of 7th hurt us as much as our codex. If tourney's in 7th had rejected super heavies and formations Orks would have done just fine with their 7th ed codex.
I'm both excited and dubious about chapter approved. The Dakka Dakka Dakka strategem is trash, but as has been pointed out the points costs will matter more than the strategems. I think part of the challenge right now is that a very, very small list of playtesters is responsible for most of the balancing of 40K. This is going to be the 1st test to see if GW can gather intelligence from the wider playerbase. I'd feel alot more confident if there was a rules writer that had a passion for Orks, but until I see the numbers in their entirety, I'll stay hopeful.
Azhday wrote: 15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).
Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?
You'll rarely get a full unit of tankbustas in a regular game. But if you do and you see that the enemy vehicle needs to loose this extra 3 wounds right here and right now, you could use a CP. Also, tankbustas have access to bomb squigs and it might be even worth 1 CP in this case.
I'm not too disappointed, to be honest. A copy-paste crappy strategem could mean a copy-paste good strategem. Like getting a -1 to hit or something.
That actually the second list doing well constantly. though I'm not sure whether it's not just one player doing well with his squiggoth because he is a good player. You also see some BA or DA players doing very well, while the huge bulk of them gets curb stomped.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Waaaghpower wrote: Has anyone seen the rumored relic and Warlord Trait? I'm kind of disappointed. The souped-up Big Choppa (Allegedly: Melee S: +2, AP2, D3 Wound rolls of 6+ inflict D3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage",) is better than nothing since I'm bringing a Big Choppa on a character in pretty much every game to begin with, but the Warlord Trait giving +1 Strength is almost entirely pointless unless you're trying to go vehicle hunting, (Even then, it only helps against T7 OR T8, depending on if you take a Power Klaw or a Big Choppa,) and the ability to Zoltron ork squads together kind of sucks when one of the squads has to be big and the other has to be small - You can't use it to get frikhuge squads, and you can't use it to take two small squads and make them decently large.
The warlord trait combined with the relic big choppa does make sense though, since it would put the warboss wielding the relic at S8 instead of S7, which is probably the most important threshold in the game. S8 means wounding vehicles on 3+, heavy tanks on 4+ and marines on 2+. That makes it better against T7 and T8 than the extra attack and exactly as good against marines. Also keep in mind, that you get the strength bonus even in turns when you didn't charge.
Also keep in mind that you get to deal d3 mortal wounds on 5+ if the banner nob is near.
If warlord is wielding a PK, the extra strength is worse than an extra attack though.
The warlord trait combined with the relic big choppa does make sense though, since it would put the warboss wielding the relic at S8 instead of S7, which is probably the most important threshold in the game. S8 means wounding vehicles on 3+, heavy tanks on 4+ and marines on 2+. That makes it better against T7 and T8 than the extra attack and exactly as good against marines. Also keep in mind, that you get the strength bonus even in turns when you didn't charge.
Also keep in mind that you get to deal d3 mortal wounds on 5+ if the banner nob is near.
If warlord is wielding a PK, the extra strength is worse than an extra attack though.
A Warboss is already S8 with a big choppa, no?
The bannernob will only boost the relic-choppa if the mortal wounds is dealt on a hit-roll of 6+ rather than a wound-roll. But I guess that remains to be seen.
Oh, right - I keep forgetting that we get to be furious all the time now
Automatically Appended Next Post: For something completely on topic:
I was shifting point around and managed fit a decent army into a (blitz) brigade at 2000 points that didn't totally suck, so I wanted to share the idea:
The idea is having two battlewagons filled with two units of boyz each that can tie up shooting units, score multiple objectives or try to take wounds of vehicles and mosters with their two big choppas. In my experience, I never had battlewagon boyz benefit from +1 Attack anyways, so I'd rather have a second big choppa in the mob. I also gave those two wagons deff rollas, since I'm pretty confident that my opponent would rather take out battlewagons transporting tank bustas and characters than those filled with boyz.
The other two battlewagons get one unit of shoota boyz, one unit of tank bustaz, a KFF mek and either Thrakka or Grotznik. These are probably the ones getting shot, so I just saved myself the points for bikes and put the meks inside the wagon. In Turn 2 he can disembark, advance to where the battlewagon will end up and then repair it, assuming the wagon survived turn 1.
Skorchas are the best cheap fast attack we can get, they can outflank and later advance 12"+d6 and still scorch something 8" away. Also, screw -1 to hit. I think 11 points per T5 4+ wound is decent, if multi-wound weapons actually shoot them instead of battlewagons, all the better. They can also be repaired by big meks, if the chance arises.
If CA point drops are big enough, I would put the meks on bikes(currently +62 points) and fill out the wagons with more boyz. If the point drops are huge I might even be able to afford dedicated trukks for the tank busta units, to spread threats out across more targets.Currently I'm 313 points short of fielding the list the way I want to.
What do you think? Suggestions? Stop trying to make battlewagons work, jidmah?
Azhday wrote: 15x Tankbustas vs. Vehicle with Dakka Dakka Dakka get 4.16667 more attacks (cose of rerolls), those attacks hit 2.3148148 of the times (also rerolls). That's 1.0288 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Rhino (i.e. 3 dmg more) and 0.5787 more attacks that pass through Toughness and Armor Save of a Land Rider (so there's 1 in 2 chance you will get 3 dmg more).
Is this making any sense? Is this correct? If yes is it worth it to use this Stratagem on full mob of Tankbustas shooting at Vehicles?
Just to pile in here, where are you going to be putting these Tank Bustas? If you footslog them then they are dead turn 1. They won't fit in a Trukk so you have to put them in a Wagon. So now that already over priced Tank Busta squad (255pts) has to ride in a wagon (161pts). so for 410pts you are going to spend 1 command point to guarantee a Rhino kill or slightly annoying a Land Raider.
Tank Bustas just like every other shooting options orkz have right now, are ridiculously over priced for what little they can do and how squishy they are.
Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.
What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.
pismakron wrote: Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.
What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.
pismakron wrote: Tankbustas fit very well in a trukk. They are just not that competitive after the transport-tax. A trukk of tankbustas costs more than 10 kannonz.
What tankbustas really need is ablative wounds. Like if you could take a squad of shoota-boyz with some or all of them upgraded to lootas/tankbustas/burnas.
15 tank bustas fit into truck? Since when?
Twelve tankbustas fit in a trukk. Or 2x5 + two squigs. Or 5 + 2 squigs + 5 Nobz. Or 10 tankbustas + weirdboy + Painboy. There are many useful combinations.
Slightly situational, but have many of you used Trakors over Kannons?
8pts more, which is mostly on the 3 extra krew the gun brings.
You don't get the Frag option.
Against Eldar, Necrons and 'Nids I've been fining these work nicely.
A guaranteed explode on a hover vehicle in the middle of their lines gets a nice bonus.
Azhday wrote: Did anyone watched the WHTW from the beggining? I just tuned in :/ Did they addressed anything concerning Orks?
Very little. They previewed headwompa's Kill Choppa which I think had already been previewed.
They did speak at length about their updated rules writing process:
Clarification faqs 2 weeks after codex release. Balancing FAQ's in March and September using the Adepticon and Nova events respectively as a final source of data for the balancing FAQ's. Their playtest team is expanding, and they are adding top tier tourney players.
thats genius
The only problem about that combo is to field the models, who the hell actually owns 12 runtherds???? 
Flash gitz are still under the effect of the dakka strat.
