koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, for jumping mobs you should equip them with shootas.

That's optional. 30 shootas still do very little at range. As you're basically only getting 30 extra shots the turn you arrive. 30 shots is <1 dead marine. And is statistically 0.416 dead marines in cover.

Sluggas are 12" which means some of them are not in range or you have to shoot your charge target, increasing the odds of failing the charge. Shootas can often target units behind what you are trying to charge.

30 shootas are 60 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.33 dead 3+ saves or half that many 2+ saves within 18" - and they are a lot better against models with T3 like tau, daemons, imperials, etc.

Besides, you don't always know what blob you're going to jump.

How do you not know which mob you are jumping turn 1? I'd even argue that you should know which mob is jumping turn 2 unless something really unexpected happens.
Also, considering that his entire list is vehicle mounted, unless he is jumping his mobs, they will not be there for the fight in time.

It all depends on the personal preference. For example, i prefer squads composed of 10 shootas, 19 sluggas and a nob. I feel that it's optimal to have at least some shooting without any noticeable drop in mellee output. Because it's not a guarantee that all the boyz are able to strike simultaniously, so the shootas can hang further back and still provide this tiny bit of damage even if they don't make it to combat. And if you need more mellee damage, shootas go down first. If you really need shooting and want to stay out of comba, kill choppaboyz first.

Not for jumping mobs. You jump your unit of 30 slightly outside 9" of your enemy and you either make the charge or you don't. If you don't, every single choppa boy in your unit was a waste of points. If you make the charge, every single shoota boyz still had his shooting.

Shoota boyz are guaranteed to get their shots, while slugga boyz have pretty high chance to not benefit from their additional attack. Even if they do get their attack, you often don't need it since mobs jumping in the first two turn tend to be a full strength and thus have more than enough attacks to handle most targets. By not taking as many shootas as possible, you are taking a high risk with very little gain.

I'm all with you for mobs slogging it across the board because you lose models and you need every attack you can get when the mob starts to shrink. The jumping mobs are risky alpha-strike units though, if you fail your charge you should at least gun down those 3.33 marines for your troubles before some hurricane bolter wipes half your mob.

An extra mellee attack is at minimum twice as powerful as an extra bs5 shot. I've tried purely shoota squads, purely choppa squads and a mix. Currently i'm set on a 10 shoota+rest choppa mix.

I think 10 slugga/20 shoota is the safest mix. You get more output if you don't make the charge and since I run lots of terrain getting much more than 10 models into combat can be a challenge sometimes.

Either way, I'd run a 10/20 split of either kind over a pure 30 man squad of just sluggas or shootas.

I'm using what models I have, so 12 shootas, 17 sluggas and a nob with BC, x3 squads. It's pretty close to the sweet spot, IMHO.

in my hordes I typically run straight Choppa Mobz, but that is mostly due to my Meta. The extra handful of BS5+ S4 Ap- shots at 18in generally dont overly worry my opponents as they are camping cover with 2+ armor saves, and if you do the math, 10 shoota boyz in range get 20 shots, 7ish hits, 3ish wounds which against a 2+ = 1/2 chance to kill a single Tactical Marine in cover, its actually a bit better then that but im rounding down to save time/effort.

On the other hand, my mobz tend to get eaten ALIVE! and I always need more boyz when they finally get stuck in, keeping in mind that I don't play Foot slogging hordes, I use "Da Jump" as a primary mode of transportation and up to 90 Kommandos who magically appear in charge range of my opponents .

I'm just praying to god at this point that GW pushes our codex out sooner rather then later though because even with this different style of play, its really not that different from a Goff Foot sloggin Waaagh, really its basically a Blood Axe version of that list

I'd go with full slugga & choppa boyz if I had the models, but since I don't own tons of boyz when I field footslogging mobz they all are 9-10 shootas, 19-20 sluggas and the nob.

I've always loved the shoota boyz models but never liked their style, IMHO that +1A in close combat is still huge since we use our boyz not only to kill infantry squads (which can be obliterated in melee even by shoota boyz) but also to assault multiwounds armored stuff and even 120 attacks at strenght 4 may be not enough.

 Jidmah wrote:
How do you not know which mob you are jumping turn 1? I'd even argue that you should know which mob is jumping turn 2 unless something really unexpected happens.
Also, considering that his entire list is vehicle mounted, unless he is jumping his mobs, they will not be there for the fight in time.

totally agree!
If you're running da jumpin weirdboy you always know what unit you will jump turn 1. It makes sense that this is a shoota squad to maximise damage.

I have taken to running one full 30 shoota mob with 3 big shootas for jumpin and the rest sluggas. When I jump I make less charges than I succeed so the fact that I can jump shoot something further away and charge the closest means I have a chance of doing some damage and tying a unit up in combat creating threat in their deployment strategy while taking some heat away from advancing choppas.

When you build your list you know what you're gonna do turn 1. Either you get 1st turn and jump or you go second and probably still jump. Orks are all or nothing so go all in with shootas!

30 strong squad of shootas will still do 3 attacks base and 4 if you can warpath them before you jump. since you will never get all 30 choppas in to the first round of combat the shoot charge benefit of the shootas means that your damage output is better with shootas for jumpin turn 1

You might not know because you might have your 'dedicated' mellee squads of boyz getting a 1" advance. So, you might as well risk advancing the shootaboyz and jumping sluggas instead and just chain them towards the boss to get within 6" to be able to charge afterwards.
Or the enemy might shoot down your shootas squads instead of slugga squad because he happened to be in range or because he knows that you want to ds shootas to deal more damage to his squishy stuff.

There is a number of reasons you might want to DS another squad.

Another good reason to not get overboard on shootaboyz is negative to-hit modifiers.

 koooaei wrote:
You might not know because you might have your 'dedicated' mellee squads of boyz getting a 1" advance. So, you might as well risk advancing the shootaboyz and jumping sluggas instead and just chain them towards the boss to get within 6" to be able to charge afterwards.
Or the enemy might shoot down your shootas squads instead of slugga squad because he happened to be in range or because he knows that you want to ds shootas to deal more damage to his squishy stuff.

There is a number of reasons you might want to DS another squad.

Another good reason to not get overboard on shootaboyz is negative to-hit modifiers.

Totally agree. No plan survives contact with the enemy but at list building I think that mixed squads are sub-optimal to totally dedicated squads. What you're suggesting is that by mixing the squads you give yourself more options for tactical flexibility while arguably reducing the damage potential of shooting with those squads. Our shooting sucks and volume is the only way to mitigate this (albeit poorly). In a vacuum(when list building) I still think it makes more sense to go all or nothing on each squad.

Sluggaloo wrote:
What about using Snikrot as an objective camper. Remember opponents cant target him unless he is the closest model, and you can hide him in an objective in some rooms and he gets a fat+3 save and 4 wounds iirc. Potentially our hardest to remove objective camper available to us, the enemy would need to dedicate a flier to fly up to him and gun him down if you position properly.

What about zaggstrukk? Fearless for your stormboyz cant be a bad thing if they're flying head on into the enemy gunline

Edit: Is there any reason you don't run the kommandos in min squads?

Now that objective secured is back in the game. It only takes a single trooper model to steal the objective from him.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You might not know because you might have your 'dedicated' mellee squads of boyz getting a 1" advance. So, you might as well risk advancing the shootaboyz and jumping sluggas instead and just chain them towards the boss to get within 6" to be able to charge afterwards.
Or the enemy might shoot down your shootas squads instead of slugga squad because he happened to be in range or because he knows that you want to ds shootas to deal more damage to his squishy stuff.

There is a number of reasons you might want to DS another squad.

Another good reason to not get overboard on shootaboyz is negative to-hit modifiers.

Totally agree. No plan survives contact with the enemy but at list building I think that mixed squads are sub-optimal to totally dedicated squads. What you're suggesting is that by mixing the squads you give yourself more options for tactical flexibility while arguably reducing the damage potential of shooting with those squads. Our shooting sucks and volume is the only way to mitigate this (albeit poorly). In a vacuum(when list building) I still think it makes more sense to go all or nothing on each squad.

for my army choppaboyz are more useful than shootaboyz, however, backrows rarely get to strike in mellee from the get go, so i take them as shootas so that they can add a tiny bit to the fight. Besides, if i need max chopping, i kill shootaboyz first. If i need max shooting (for example when i decide to secure the mid board and there is gona be no mellee there) i kill choppaboyz first. As for pure shootaboy squads i've found their shooting quite underwhelming and not worth the +1 attack loss in mellee because i've been often advancing shootaboyz to get closer for more reliable charges. And 1 turn of shooting an extra shot on the drop is not really that great for orks.

...keep in mind that my 150 imperial guardsmen with power axe sarges have been way more succsessful in mellee than at shooting in 7-th and even when i tried sororitas back in the day, they ended up charging buffed up possessed and beating them up in mellee with bolter butts...mmm...sororita bolter butts...Anywayz, i guess, anything eventually becomes a choppa in mad mek's hands.

 koooaei wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You might not know because you might have your 'dedicated' mellee squads of boyz getting a 1" advance. So, you might as well risk advancing the shootaboyz and jumping sluggas instead and just chain them towards the boss to get within 6" to be able to charge afterwards.
Or the enemy might shoot down your shootas squads instead of slugga squad because he happened to be in range or because he knows that you want to ds shootas to deal more damage to his squishy stuff.

There is a number of reasons you might want to DS another squad.

Another good reason to not get overboard on shootaboyz is negative to-hit modifiers.

Totally agree. No plan survives contact with the enemy but at list building I think that mixed squads are sub-optimal to totally dedicated squads. What you're suggesting is that by mixing the squads you give yourself more options for tactical flexibility while arguably reducing the damage potential of shooting with those squads. Our shooting sucks and volume is the only way to mitigate this (albeit poorly). In a vacuum(when list building) I still think it makes more sense to go all or nothing on each squad.

for my army choppaboyz are more useful than shootaboyz, however, backrows rarely get to strike in mellee from the get go, so i take them as shootas so that they can add a tiny bit to the fight. Besides, if i need max chopping, i kill shootaboyz first. If i need max shooting (for example when i decide to secure the mid board and there is gona be no mellee there) i kill choppaboyz first. As for pure shootaboy squads i've found their shooting quite underwhelming and not worth the +1 attack loss in mellee because i've been often advancing shootaboyz to get closer for more reliable charges. And 1 turn of shooting an extra shot on the drop is not really that great for orks.

For sure! Choppas are more useful than shootas in almost every conceivable way plus the added bonus of firing sluggas in combat but I'm talking about the very specific instance of turn 1 da jump only. In that specific instance shootaboys outclass choppas(marginally). If I'm running a jump weirdboy I will almost always jump shootas now.

I've read your previous comments on mixed squads and I've tried it before. I'm always lurking on this thread and have tried a lot of your tactics before! After experimenting I now feel jumping is better for shootas just because in that instance it delivers better for my strategy outcome but I will always be running 2 other squads of all out choppas advancing.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You might not know because you might have your 'dedicated' mellee squads of boyz getting a 1" advance. So, you might as well risk advancing the shootaboyz and jumping sluggas instead and just chain them towards the boss to get within 6" to be able to charge afterwards.
Or the enemy might shoot down your shootas squads instead of slugga squad because he happened to be in range or because he knows that you want to ds shootas to deal more damage to his squishy stuff.

There is a number of reasons you might want to DS another squad.

Another good reason to not get overboard on shootaboyz is negative to-hit modifiers.

Totally agree. No plan survives contact with the enemy but at list building I think that mixed squads are sub-optimal to totally dedicated squads. What you're suggesting is that by mixing the squads you give yourself more options for tactical flexibility while arguably reducing the damage potential of shooting with those squads. Our shooting sucks and volume is the only way to mitigate this (albeit poorly). In a vacuum(when list building) I still think it makes more sense to go all or nothing on each squad.

for my army choppaboyz are more useful than shootaboyz, however, backrows rarely get to strike in mellee from the get go, so i take them as shootas so that they can add a tiny bit to the fight. Besides, if i need max chopping, i kill shootaboyz first. If i need max shooting (for example when i decide to secure the mid board and there is gona be no mellee there) i kill choppaboyz first. As for pure shootaboy squads i've found their shooting quite underwhelming and not worth the +1 attack loss in mellee because i've been often advancing shootaboyz to get closer for more reliable charges. And 1 turn of shooting an extra shot on the drop is not really that great for orks.

For sure! Choppas are more useful than shootas in almost every conceivable way plus the added bonus of firing sluggas in combat but I'm talking about the very specific instance of turn 1 da jump only. In that specific instance shootaboys outclass choppas(marginally). If I'm running a jump weirdboy I will almost always jump shootas now.

I've read your previous comments on mixed squads and I've tried it before. I'm always lurking on this thread and have tried a lot of your tactics before! After experimenting I now feel jumping is better for shootas just because in that instance it delivers better for my strategy outcome but I will always be running 2 other squads of all out choppas advancing.

I guess it depends on the meta. I'm usually facing a lot of opponents with heavy squads in cover, so shooting is not that amazing. However, shootaboyz have REALLY come in handy vs necrons when i needed to kill scarabs asap to actually get to strike warriors behind them. And i was lucky that 30 shootas (10 in each squad within range) were able to down that last scarab after advance moves. They barely made it but it was game deciding.

I'd like to clear out that i'm not OPPOSED to using pure shootaboyz. There's a certain appeal to such build. Just not that it's always a better combo than a mixed squad for da jump. It depends on the opponent a lot. But i'm positive mixed squads are better than pure choppas in majority of cases.

Well, on the second thought, there's a 50% chance no boyz are gona make it into combat at all, so why not go for max damage on the drop. I'm torn here. Will probably try it once again. This might just be my aggressive tactical approach. I always try to 'cautiously' rush my opponent. Not because i'm gona kill everything early on but because i'm gona score more points and it's going to be hard for my enemy to catch up. And orks are just like this at their core. An aggressive rush that doesn't necesserily last all that long but it pushes the enemy to his defensive limits. To be honest, if the game lasted a turn or two longer, this mentality would fail way more often. But it kinda works now and warps my tactical approach, i guess. So, i'm thinking why am i arguing about shootas if they do work too?..

An idea ive been toying with for my walker list is; DSing a max unit of grots in a conga-line behind my targets, 9" away from them obviously, but with the aim of creating a net. I can declare a charge against as many vehicles/shooty units as possible. The overall aim being to simply prevent the enemy from kiting me. So the aim is to limit their ability to re-position, while my Gorka, meka and kill tank rush up the field.

Only downside is, I add a infantry unit to a list that T1 is fully mechanised. So I give them an anti-infantry target. Not that grots make much of a priority, but I feel like either; I will die in the combat phase, and they will be able to move freely anyway, or i'll fail the charges and get the squad wiped out in their turn. Thoughts?

Solar Shock wrote:
An idea ive been toying with for my walker list is; DSing a max unit of grots in a conga-line behind my targets, 9" away from them obviously, but with the aim of creating a net. I can declare a charge against as many vehicles/shooty units as possible. The overall aim being to simply prevent the enemy from kiting me. So the aim is to limit their ability to re-position, while my Gorka, meka and kill tank rush up the field.

Only downside is, I add a infantry unit to a list that T1 is fully mechanised. So I give them an anti-infantry target. Not that grots make much of a priority, but I feel like either; I will die in the combat phase, and they will be able to move freely anyway, or i'll fail the charges and get the squad wiped out in their turn. Thoughts?

In my experience there usually is no room for such a large unit behind your enemies, especially if they are expecting jumping orks (almost everyone is now).

Also note that conga-line and getting overwatched by half and army will probably not end well for positioning.

In any case, jumping a unit of boyz is always more efficient than a unit of gretchin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, on the second thought, there's a 50% chance no boyz are gona make it into combat at all, so why not go for max damage on the drop.

That's what I was trying to say all along.
Whoever jumps in turn one will probably not live to see turn 2 (because no one wants 30 orks in his gunline), so if they fail the charge they will probably never get to use their choppas.

I also enjoy the flexibility of being able to shoot at another unit than the one I'm planning to charge.
A slugga boy is more than 9" away from the closest model, so his reach beyond that model is 2-3". A shoota can reach 8-9" beyond that model.
If your sluggas kill two or three models you are most likely looking at a 10" charge or worse, so not shooting them at all is usually the best choice. Shootas can shoot at stuff that's sitting behind the bubble wrap - which might be a precious hellblaster, two or three noise marines or a bunch of pathfinders.

Solar Shock wrote:
An idea ive been toying with for my walker list is; DSing a max unit of grots in a conga-line behind my targets, 9" away from them obviously, but with the aim of creating a net. I can declare a charge against as many vehicles/shooty units as possible. The overall aim being to simply prevent the enemy from kiting me. So the aim is to limit their ability to re-position, while my Gorka, meka and kill tank rush up the field.

Only downside is, I add a infantry unit to a list that T1 is fully mechanised. So I give them an anti-infantry target. Not that grots make much of a priority, but I feel like either; I will die in the combat phase, and they will be able to move freely anyway, or i'll fail the charges and get the squad wiped out in their turn. Thoughts?

As Jidmah said, it is unlikely that you will be able to deepstrike behind your opponent. Most deployment zones barely have enough space for this even if your opponent deploys on the line. So if you pull this off your opponent has likely moved toward you, at which point it doesn't seem like you need to prevent them from running away. Now you might be able to flank an army to trap them in a specific area if the army in question doesn't have the fly ability.

All that said 30 Grots is really unlikely to be a big worry if it charges into a bunch of shooty units. Overwatch alone is pretty likely to cause a morale test and it is very likely you will explode to morale after you charge. You might be able to tie up like 1 Razorback effectively but much more than that you are starting to lose 4+ models before combat, and then a few more in combat means you are losing more models to morale. Lets look at charging 10 bolter marines. You lose 2(2.3) grots to overwatch. If all the remaining grots get to attack (they won't) you kill 1 marine, so likely you kill nothing. Then the marines attack back, killing 5 more gretchin, This puts you at 7 losses with LD 4. SO D6+3 grots die (so 6-7 more) so you have lost 13-14 models on your own turn, against a single squad. If you charge multiple squads it is very likely the squad will not remain. Best case would be charging a bunch of lascannon razorbacks, but if your opponent lets that happen you probably didn't need the grot deepstrike to start with.

The main reason to bring grots (and deepstrike them) in a walker list would be as a deepstrike screen for your own units, then deepstrike them to keep your screen ahead of your walkers.

Does anyone here own the standard "small" squiggoth model, who could measure its length and width? I'm considering a conversion, and I'm needing to check how viable it is. Don't want to end up too small (or too big)

Niiru wrote:
Does anyone here own the standard "small" squiggoth model, who could measure its length and width? I'm considering a conversion, and I'm needing to check how viable it is. Don't want to end up too small (or too big)

I can do it when I get home in a few hours, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Is there any rule out there stating that the Flash Gitz can't keep proc'ing Gun Crazy Showoffs? Nothing in the index says that it's limited to once, but that doesn't SOUND right.

ajax_xaja wrote:
Is there any rule out there stating that the Flash Gitz can't keep proc'ing Gun Crazy Showoffs? Nothing in the index says that it's limited to once, but that doesn't SOUND right.

I believe that's by design. It fits into a classic orky design model of "pretty-underpowered 35 times out of 36, totally-insane-oh-god-I-killed-everyone 1 time in 36".

ajax_xaja wrote:
Is there any rule out there stating that the Flash Gitz can't keep proc'ing Gun Crazy Showoffs? Nothing in the index says that it's limited to once, but that doesn't SOUND right.

That's... a good point. It doesn't specifically say "at the end of the shooting phase", and it doesn't say "this can not lead to another gun crazy showoffs", which similar abilities from other armies have in their rules...

I suspect it's an oversight, and just goes to show how terrible Orks are right now that a rule like this hasn't been picked up on and FAQ'd. Even with a broken rule, the unit is terrible lol.

Might be by design though, it *is* suitably Orky, and I want to believe it's on purpose... but the last few years GW has done its best to remove the Orkiness from Orks so I don't hold out much hope.

However, RAW, I would say you could keep rolling 6's after each time they shoot, so you have a very very very small chance of putting out 30/45/60 shots in a turn. Hopefully it lasts into the codex! (So don't talk about it too loudly, in case people notice)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnU wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Does anyone here own the standard "small" squiggoth model, who could measure its length and width? I'm considering a conversion, and I'm needing to check how viable it is. Don't want to end up too small (or too big)

I can do it when I get home in a few hours, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it

Well, the same day that I brought it up in this thread, I got to see the Flash Gitz Gun Crazy Showoff have some exploding dice.

Ended up with 3 volleys of fire in a row. Didn't do a whole lot because I needed to move and Pox Walkers DR'ed a lot of the shots, but it was fun seeing that much dakka coming from one unit.

Like it was stated before, a whole lot of dakka + not a whole lot of results is the orky way.

Being both an Ork and IG player, I've been mulling over the awesome regiment bonuses that mono-IG armies will get. Assuming all factions get these kinds of buffs for running a pure army (of course, it's a big if, but let's just run with it), what kinds of bonuses do you think <Clan> Ork armies would get?

I'd imagine something like:
Goffs: Boyz get 6+ FNP or they do a little extra damage in CC (improved AP or damage on wound rolls of 6?)
Evil Suns: +x inches to Vehicle and Biker movements, perhaps like Red Paint Job but better.
Bad Moons: Improved shooting, perhaps +1 to hit or reroll 1s with a full reroll if they already got to reroll 1s (e.g. ammo runts), just like the Cadian bonus.
Snakebites: None of these strategies seem to involve point cost discounts, but much cheaper Squiggoths would be fluffy. Perhaps a little CC buff? I dunno, pretty unsure here
Deff skulls: Better Meks, or maybe better Ramshackle or something. Some sort of vehicle buff that's not speed, I'd imagine.
Blood Axes: Will Blood Axe infantry get the fabled -1 to hit in cover/outside x" range due to their super-sneakiness?

TL;DR it's sorta wishlisting, but I'd honestly be *really* surprised if GW basically dicked over the Orks by not giving these types of benefits like they are for Every Other Army Ever (tm).

Niiru wrote:
Does anyone here own the standard "small" squiggoth model, who could measure its length and width? I'm considering a conversion, and I'm needing to check how viable it is. Don't want to end up too small (or too big)

I've seen them in person, and they are tiny. Like, the size of a trukk. Was pretty disappointed by the size, which is why I never got any.

Here's the Squig pics, and yes they're basically Trukk sized. ~5.5"L, 3.5"W, 4"H

Apologies for the massive image sizes, Imgur is being a pain in the ass right now.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Does anyone here own the standard "small" squiggoth model, who could measure its length and width? I'm considering a conversion, and I'm needing to check how viable it is. Don't want to end up too small (or too big)

I've seen them in person, and they are tiny. Like, the size of a trukk. Was pretty disappointed by the size, which is why I never got any.

Well I have two conversion possibillities - one is a walking spider tank that from Dust Tactics that I could turn into a mech-tank, which I was going to turn into a kill tank but could also be a squiggoth -


And the other is a Maulerfiend I am almost finished with, that I built because I liked the model. Wondered how it would look with a howdah platform on it's back and some grots hanging off.



But of course, the size is the thing. I do think the maulerfiend is about the same footprint as a trukk though... maybe a bit shorter, but might be doable.


Edit:
Additional question - what is the current state of warbuggies, wartrakks, and Skorcha-wartrakks? Which ones (if any) are any use on the table? They seem better than koptas right now, cheaper and more wounds and roughly the same firepower?

If you want a four/six-legged mech counts-as squiggoth, try a defiler chassis as the conversion base. Pretty easy to remove the chaos bits and give it proper 'feet', or it can represent an actual defiler captured/repaired by meks.

Niiru wrote:

Additional question - what is the current state of warbuggies, wartrakks, and Skorcha-wartrakks? Which ones (if any) are any use on the table? They seem better than koptas right now, cheaper and more wounds and roughly the same firepower?

They're way too expensive for what they do and currently work only as a distraction unit, in squads of single buggies. And tipycally they may be decent only in mechanized lists in which there's a lot of T6-7-8 models.

Buggies and wartrakks are my biggest disappointment of 8th edition since they're among my favorite models but now they're three times more expensive than they were in 7th edition and a small amount of rokkits is not as deadly as it was before. I've always loved to field large squads of buggies and in 7th I actually did it sometimes, even if they weren't super competitive, but a full squad of buggies with rockets was 125 points and now a single one is 72 points!!!

They're playable in casual games but pretty bad overall. GW overestimated the effectiveness of light vehicles overall. They'd be good if they were around 45 pts with twin rokkits. But that's not happening any time soon. As is, they're just too expensive to be used in numbers.

 koooaei wrote:
They're playable in casual games but pretty bad overall. GW overestimated the effectiveness of light vehicles overall. They'd be good if they were around 45 pts with twin rokkits. But that's not happening any time soon. As is, they're just too expensive to be used in numbers.

Ah, that's a shame. What about warkoptas, or are they the same?

Rumour has it, that plasmas are now 15 points on scions rather than the usual 7 points. If true, count me as a happy camper.

Niiru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They're playable in casual games but pretty bad overall. GW overestimated the effectiveness of light vehicles overall. They'd be good if they were around 45 pts with twin rokkits. But that's not happening any time soon. As is, they're just too expensive to be used in numbers.

Ah, that's a shame. What about warkoptas, or are they the same?

Koptas are more fragile but they can drop bombs and have fly which is ok. If they were 40-50% cheaper, they'd be a good unit.

Niiru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They're playable in casual games but pretty bad overall. GW overestimated the effectiveness of light vehicles overall. They'd be good if they were around 45 pts with twin rokkits. But that's not happening any time soon. As is, they're just too expensive to be used in numbers.

Ah, that's a shame. What about warkoptas, or are they the same?

On paper they are better than buggies due to being transport.
Load some nobz unit and charge some tank, then disembark and go for objectives.
But i think chinorks is overcosted.
Same with coptas, but can take saws - good for high T models hunting.

 Mr.T wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They're playable in casual games but pretty bad overall. GW overestimated the effectiveness of light vehicles overall. They'd be good if they were around 45 pts with twin rokkits. But that's not happening any time soon. As is, they're just too expensive to be used in numbers.

Ah, that's a shame. What about warkoptas, or are they the same?

On paper they are better than buggies due to being transport.
Load some nobz unit and charge some tank, then disembark and go for objectives.
But i think chinorks is overcosted.
Same with coptas, but can take saws - good for high T models hunting.

Sorry, I meant Deffkoptas, not the Chinork

I finally broke down and bought Ghazghkull Thraka because it seems like he's a viable unit now.

Do any of you have experience with the Big Mek in mega armor with the tellyport blasta?

I'm really tempted to buy the kit and try my hand at using the other models in the kit for making a Gorgutz 'Ead'unter model after his new DAW model with the giant chain Klaw.

+ I fancy the mek boss in DAW 3 which is a stock big mek in mega armor with tellyport blasta.

So I kinda want it just for that.

Also I'd like to hear about how big meks with Shokk attack guns are doing.

Zomnivore wrote:


Also I'd like to hear about how big meks with Shokk attack guns are doing.

Abysmally, to my great sadness. Probably the most ineffective unit I've used. Lucky if you kill one chaff model in a game.
At home, we've run it with 2D6 shots as an experiment a few times. Then it begins to reach 7ed levels of effectiveness. Hoping beyond hope that the codex will give it something.

 Cuz05 wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:


Also I'd like to hear about how big meks with Shokk attack guns are doing.

Abysmally, to my great sadness. Probably the most ineffective unit I've used. Lucky if you kill one chaff model in a game.
At home, we've run it with 2D6 shots as an experiment a few times. Then it begins to reach 7ed levels of effectiveness. Hoping beyond hope that the codex will give it something.

The SAG was reamed, hard. The best thing it had going for it was the large blast, and the orky random table. Now with straight ballistic skill it's not worth even 5 points. Add in the cost of the big mek and it is worse that worthless.

GW never figured out that removing blast templates hurts orks more than anybody...except for the fact that we don't like receiving them, either...

 KommissarKiln wrote:


TL;DR it's sorta wishlisting, but I'd honestly be *really* surprised if GW basically dicked over the Orks by not giving these types of benefits like they are for Every Other Army Ever (tm).

unfortunately, speaking from experience, get ready to be surprised.

SemperMortis wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:


TL;DR it's sorta wishlisting, but I'd honestly be *really* surprised if GW basically dicked over the Orks by not giving these types of benefits like they are for Every Other Army Ever (tm).

unfortunately, speaking from experience, get ready to be surprised.

Eldar and Tyranids are coming up in the next couple months. They'll be the first of the Xenos codex releases, and it'll give us the best idea of what GW plan to do for armies that aren't Imperium/Space Marines.

Hope for good things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I always thought battlewagons were meant to be the big expensive option for transports.. but after pricing up the basic squiggoth and big trakk few options, I discover that a fully kitted out battle wagon is actually cheaper!?

Battle wagon has two less wounds than squiggoth, but can have a killkannon and 4 big shootas vs a squiggoths single basic kannon... and the wagon still ends up cheaper (or similarly priced at least)

Is there any reason to take a squig transport?

Is there a worthwhile big trakk build?

What's the optimum battlewagon loadout?

otherwise I'll have to just run my squiggoth conversion as something else. Battlewagon, maybe.

Niiru wrote:

Is there any reason to take a squig transport?

Yes. Mortal wounds on the charge, decent close-combat ability, passengers can shoot when the squig is engaged. Never take a big gun on the squig.

Niiru wrote:


Is there a worthwhile big trakk build?

Not really. They are all too expensive.

Niiru wrote:

What's the optimum battlewagon loadout?

Deffrolla + hard top. Nothing else.

Agree, for shooty transports you might just want to leave it completely without upgrades or add some big shootas if you got points to waste and no more boyz mobs than can take another boy.
All other options are too expensive on a BS5+ model that is most likely going to die if someone wants it to, especially since you could just put rokkits and big shootas all over your other units.

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, for shooty transports you might just want to leave it completely without upgrades or add some big shootas if you got points to waste and no more boyz mobs than can take another boy.
All other options are too expensive on a BS5+ model that is most likely going to die if someone wants it to, especially since you could just put rokkits and big shootas all over your other units.

Exactly.

Think of the 8th edition Index as 4th edition on steroids. BOYZ BEFORE EVERYTHING!

"Hey should I take this cool looking walker/vehicle?"

Only if you don't have anymore boyz models to use.

"what about a squad or 2 of Flash gitz/Burna Boyz?"

Do you want to lose the game?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an unrelated note, I am going to be going to my 3rd tournament with my Kommando list hopefully this weekend (Work schedule permitting) if I do, I will post the results, so far though I have yet to lose a game with my super sneaky kommando list, I have edited it a bit to give it some other surprises and what not but nothing to crazy...yet.

Hey mind posting your kommando list? As a fellow Blood Axe fan, I'd like to see what you're running.

Yo Semper why don't you bring the two free burnas on your kommando squads?

hollow one wrote:
Yo Semper why don't you bring the two free burnas on your kommando squads?

I Do I just didn't include them on the list do to laziness.

Every Kommando unit contains 1 Nob with Big Choppa and 2 Burna Kommandos. And, between every kommando unit I field, in every game I have played, I think ive used the flamers like twice....maybe. Otherwise the are powerswords.

Thanks for answering my questions about the shokk attack gun, but I still want to know if the Tellyporta blasta is any good.

Also what use you think a mega armor big mek would have in a list.



Thanks in advance you guys make it fun to be an ork player.

Zomnivore wrote:
Thanks for answering my questions about the shokk attack gun, but I still want to know if the Tellyporta blasta is any good.

Also what use you think a mega armor big mek would have in a list.



Thanks in advance you guys make it fun to be an ork player.

A big mek is there to provide a KFF, either on foot or on a bike. Anything else is a waste.

pismakron wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
Thanks for answering my questions about the shokk attack gun, but I still want to know if the Tellyporta blasta is any good.

Also what use you think a mega armor big mek would have in a list.



Thanks in advance you guys make it fun to be an ork player.

A big mek is there to provide a KFF, either on foot or on a bike. Anything else is a waste.

Just hold off until codex...but yet, for now KFF is pretty good. In casual games the repair can also keep a battlewagon alive one more turn.

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
Thanks for answering my questions about the shokk attack gun, but I still want to know if the Tellyporta blasta is any good.

Also what use you think a mega armor big mek would have in a list.



Thanks in advance you guys make it fun to be an ork player.

A big mek is there to provide a KFF, either on foot or on a bike. Anything else is a waste.

Just hold off until codex...but yet, for now KFF is pretty good. In casual games the repair can also keep a battlewagon alive one more turn.

Yes, the repair is good, also in walker lists. The same is true of painboyz. Healing Ghaz for D3 wounds a couple of times is easily worth the price of Grotsnik. But equipping a Big Meg with megaarmor and dakka is probably never worth it

I feel like they should just give the big mek BS 3+. That it would suddenly make him a real competitor for warboss and weird boy without any further changes needed. SAG, tellyporta blaster and all the other shooty options would suddenly make sense again.

firstly, sorry for my english

I've played against Tau, friendly competetive list: farsight, 4 commanders 2 meltas,2 misslepods, 1 crisis units plasmas, flamers, longstrike, 4 or 5 units of drones in mass numbers - i think there was about 50. Forgot to mention dude that increase drone shots.

I wanted to try some stuff: 2 meks with kff one on bike, kill tanks, Gsquig (+bustas), chinork, nobz, 2 units of kommandoses, nob banner. I don't like to play mass boyz - for me its boring.

He started despite i got less drops, than him.

First turn - drop 2 meltamanders and blow up dakkatank (that one with 6d6). I've failed all KFF saves... gak happens.
My turn: i wanted to kill those bustards (meltammanders), Squiggoth was great, worth his points. There was 4 drones (2 per commander) - drone taking multi wounds against multidmg instead of HQ?Yes, please. That make him game.
I deployed 2 unit of komandos on flank, on 2nd flank - chinork with nobz - there was unprotected Longstrike. All charges where succesful... 6 kommandos died due to overwatch, i got 14 left in 2 units. They manage to take down 1 misslepodmannder, pile in to 2nd commander. But this is Tau hey (hate fly). Bustas didnt perform well or he took all wounds on drones - doesn't matter 1 fusion survived.
I noticed that Kill tanks despite having ws 3+ sucks in cc against high armored targets due to no AP.. 2d6 kill tank manage to strip off 2 wounds of long strike.

next tau turn - go and shoot to death 2nd tank (my opponent didn't know Gsquig well - for me its obvious target) and go for charges with crisis and farsight targeting squig. chinork left with 3 wounds, but survived, kommandos survived due to bad rolls.
Well - no overwatch for howdah (that sucks), almost no dmg to squig in cc, then my try. Did i mention drones before? They soak all dmg leaving farsight untouched. Gsuigdied in that cc (i forgot that he can charge after fly, sigh...)
On my turn nobz take down Longstrike. Komandos died due to OW.
Well i was tabled in 4 turn, but hey this was tau. FLY made him game.

What i can say about my list:
- Gsquig - cool, im gonna make him as meka spider conversion,
- nobz - they perform pretty well, i was surprised. (1klaw,3 BC, 1 PS),
- chinork - biggest disapoint - overpriced, but ability to transport nobz is good. IMO it got to few wounds,
- kill tanks - dunno they died too fast, but at least they're cheap (less than 300 points iirc), sucks in cc as i mentioned above,
- kommandoses - nice 9ppm. Nothing to complain about - they were good.
- bustas - all know their effecitvity.

What would I change - 1 kill tank and took at least 2 skorcha big trakks (I would need find some points for this)
My thought after game - if it was not tau i could win this. Drones taking wounds instead of suits are gold. He got about 50 of them mitigating multi dmg wounds.
Im looking forward to play more games with this list after modification

As bonus I can say that Blood Axes with appearing >9" of enemy will be my gold - so f*ck you tau, survive 90 boyz first turn, hue hue hue.

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like they should just give the big mek BS 3+. That it would suddenly make him a real competitor for warboss and weird boy without any further changes needed. SAG, tellyporta blaster and all the other shooty options would suddenly make sense again.

FW has a big mek with bs 4+. Another option would be to just up the damage output of the SAG, so it makes sense with BS 5+

pismakron wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like they should just give the big mek BS 3+. That it would suddenly make him a real competitor for warboss and weird boy without any further changes needed. SAG, tellyporta blaster and all the other shooty options would suddenly make sense again.

FW has a big mek with bs 4+. Another option would be to just up the damage output of the SAG, so it makes sense with BS 5+

Even BS 4+ on a vanilla Big Mek would be nice. Gitfinda might do that for us again.
I run a KFF dude with Mega Armour, Klaw and Blasta, simply because he's scratch built and something of a special piece to me. He hardly ever gets shot at to make the MA worth it and rarely hits anything with the Blasta, both are always wasted points. Doesnt do much with the Klaw either tbh.

pismakron wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like they should just give the big mek BS 3+. That it would suddenly make him a real competitor for warboss and weird boy without any further changes needed. SAG, tellyporta blaster and all the other shooty options would suddenly make sense again.

FW has a big mek with bs 4+. Another option would be to just up the damage output of the SAG, so it makes sense with BS 5+

Meks and Big Meks have a boat load of shooty options no one has ever cared about. A a few weeks ago one ebay seller gave me the metal KMB Mek for free on top of a SAG and a KFF mek because no one would ever buy it.

If you made big meks BS 3+ and meks and spannaz 4+ there would be an actual reason to take them. You know, like all the imperium characters and super-elite units with higher BS/WS than the regular guys.
With BS 5+ you could drop most of those weapons' points to 1-2 points and they still wouldn't see play. Seriously, what's the point of paying points for a Kustom Mega Slugga? Replacing a deff gun with a KMB? Or a kombi rokkit, where both modes have the same range and the shoota is always inferior to the rokkit? I guess you could fire both a BS 6+...

The only ranged weapons for meks that can be considered even remotely viable are kombi-skorchas (ignore BS) and rokkits (we have no other anti-tank and need as many as possible).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cuz05 wrote:
Even BS 4+ on a vanilla Big Mek would be nice. Gitfinda might do that for us again.
I run a KFF dude with Mega Armour, Klaw and Blasta, simply because he's scratch built and something of a special piece to me. He hardly ever gets shot at to make the MA worth it and rarely hits anything with the Blasta, both are always wasted points. Doesnt do much with the Klaw either tbh.

Hum. Maybe a gitfinda relic you can give to your characters might do the trick.

I was thinking about target saturation, and was wondering: seeing as both bombers (especially burnas) are basically kamikaze units once they've dropped their bombs, is it a trap to take bombers in an otherwise footslogger list? They do attract otherwise-wasted heavy weapon fire like any other vehicle, but can they do their job despite that, or are they just much better in a mechanized list where you can make your opponent waste their anti-infantry and then their anti-tank?

Also, how do you transport nobs?

Zomnivore wrote:
I finally broke down and bought Ghazghkull Thraka because it seems like he's a viable unit now.

Do any of you have experience with the Big Mek in mega armor with the tellyport blasta?

I'm really tempted to buy the kit and try my hand at using the other models in the kit for making a Gorgutz 'Ead'unter model after his new DAW model with the giant chain Klaw.

+ I fancy the mek boss in DAW 3 which is a stock big mek in mega armor with tellyport blasta.

So I kinda want it just for that.

Also I'd like to hear about how big meks with Shokk attack guns are doing.

Ghaz is actually rock-solid for the first time ever. Great on his own, great buffs.

For a gorgutz model, I've got my eye on this: https://www.facebook.com/artel.W.miniatures/photos/a.164255894084982.1073741826.140612673115971/265630910614146/?type=3&theater

I actually won a game once because a big mek killed a character on overwatch with a tellyport blasta. But overall, they aren't very good. At least, not compared to a KFF, which is stupidly cheap and basically required as orks never get cover.

And SAGs are AWFUL. Basically any ork weapons that used to be blast that aren't manned by grots are awful, simply because you never hit anything. Killkannons, SAG, even the stompa's deff kannon - all garbage, never take.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Ghaz is actually rock-solid for the first time ever. Great on his own, great buffs.

For a gorgutz model, I've got my eye on this: https://www.facebook.com/artel.W.miniatures/photos/a.164255894084982.1073741826.140612673115971/265630910614146/?type=3&theater

I actually won a game once because a big mek killed a character on overwatch with a tellyport blasta. But overall, they aren't very good. At least, not compared to a KFF, which is stupidly cheap and basically required as orks never get cover.

And SAGs are AWFUL. Basically any ork weapons that used to be blast that aren't manned by grots are awful, simply because you never hit anything. Killkannons, SAG, even the stompa's deff kannon - all garbage, never take.

God that Gorgutz model is awesome! I'm a bit disappointed on the size, tho. See comparisons:

Wow, you've saved me a ton of work.

Now all I have to do is adjust a prexisting model to be closer to its ingame reality. Thats 100x easier then making one myself.

I actually like the size. This way he's not ridiculously larger then a gazghkull thraka.

Size is perfect IMHO. Orks, even biggest superheroes, shouldn't be huge as mortarion. I'd hate a gigantic warboss in the orks catalogue only because other armies have huge models. I don't care about those silly superheroes, dear GW, don't ruin our army by replacing everything with bigger models

I also think the size is perfect. He's substantially bigger than not-angelos, who is himself pretty beefy. I don't really like mega armor warbossi that are the size of a dreadnought, those seem oversized to me.

Also, they said the dimensions are 72x76x56 millimeters, which is pretty good sized.

The model is also like $25 with $8 for shipping.

I'd buy a GW mega armor warboss if THEY EVER MADE ONE. But in the meantime, this will do nicely.

gnome_idea_what wrote:I was thinking about target saturation, and was wondering: seeing as both bombers (especially burnas) are basically kamikaze units once they've dropped their bombs, is it a trap to take bombers in an otherwise footslogger list? They do attract otherwise-wasted heavy weapon fire like any other vehicle, but can they do their job despite that, or are they just much better in a mechanized list where you can make your opponent waste their anti-infantry and then their anti-tank?

The issue are not the anti-tank guns, but the multi-damage stuff with multiple shots like autocannons, plasma or similar. But yes, the bommers perform a lot better when you have some trukks, battlewagons, mek guns, koptaz or walkers otherwise. So footsloggers with kanz and mek guns might still work, pure green tide less so.

Also, how do you transport nobs?

Battlewagons or just have them run up the field. They are not a lot less survivable than boyz if you buy ammo runts.

Adding on to my previous question - Which would people choose as a unit, transporting a squad of tankbustas.

1) A Squiggoth with a kannon - 210pts

2) A Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha and 2x Grot Sponsons - 179pts


Advantage of the Squiggoth is a couple extra wounds and +1T.

Advantage of Big Trakk is an actually decent weapon system, and saving 31pts.

Not sure if it helps but against Dark Eldar the squiggoth hasn't been great for me, it suffers poison damage and can't be healed or repaired, plus the dark eldar anti-tank options will score a lot of hits if you're not playing with obscuring terrain that 1st turn.
I've been tempted to bring the Big-Mek with KFF to support one, haven't crunched whether the save would be better, but even then it seems like the mek might as well be on something he can repair that's staying out of melee.
It's charge and other benefits have been underwhelming for me, and I'm left with the impression that it's just a meatshield, maybe someone else has had a more positive experience though, in higher point games with more units it might not get focused down.

I usually bring 4 units of 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig in two trukks when I take them. I don't like T7 battlewagons, it seems a waste to me, but with the 'ard case bustas can't shoot while embarked.

 Blackie wrote:
I usually bring 4 units of 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig in two trukks when I take them. I don't like T7 battlewagons, it seems a waste to me, but with the 'ard case bustas can't shoot while embarked.

That's actually a good point, haven't thought about it that way... T7 isn't that more survivable than T6, so I might as well just get trukks for my shooty units.

the wagons get more wounds and GUNZ but at a heck of a cost.

I like the idea of running 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts, 5 tankbustas, 2 bomb squigs (with room for additionnal nobz/bustas/characters) in a wagon (and run multiple of these), although you can't take the 'ard case. Yeah, probably better to stick with trukks for tankbustas, and run nobz, boyz and characters in 'ard case wagons...

 Nithaniel wrote:
the wagons get more wounds and GUNZ but at a heck of a cost.

Yes, but two trucks have more wounds than 1BW at a very similar cost, can cover 2 areas of the board and force the opponent to split fire, possibly inefficiently.

Curious on how people are running Kommandos and Stormboyz - are they better run in minimum squads of 5 for morale purposes (as they're often away from mobs of boyz for mob rule), or in full-size squads to mob-rule themselves?

Kommandos I suspect might be minimum squads, especially with the 2 free burnas per squad at the moment. Dunno about stormboyz though.

Niiru wrote:
Curious on how people are running Kommandos and Stormboyz - are they better run in minimum squads of 5 for morale purposes (as they're often away from mobs of boyz for mob rule), or in full-size squads to mob-rule themselves?

Kommandos I suspect might be minimum squads, especially with the 2 free burnas per squad at the moment. Dunno about stormboyz though.

Stormboyz are better off in larger squads IMO, since you're likely to go for the advance and charge ability they have which can cause a few casualties along the way. It's trivial for say, a 20 strong mob, but for a min squad like 5, it makes them dangerously low and weak to overwatch. 15-20 seems to be the ideal number IMO, especially since they don't have to worry about being around 20 orks to get a bonus attack like boyz do. I would try and run at least 2 squads of stormboyz though, mainly for target saturation and flexibility, but also because then Zagstruk gets more mileage with his "no-morale tests for stormboyz" bubble aura.

Kommandos, however, seem geared towards MSU style 5 man squads since you get 2 free burnas for each squad. Also, unlike stormboyz, they don't have the character synergy and same time of mobility that they do. They're best for mid-to-late game objective grabs and linebreaker VP holders.

Minimum squads can usually do little but score an objective, and it's pretty much suicide to charge anything that has a flamer.

SemperMortis seems to be having a lot of success with full kommando squads, which matches what a fellow ork player is experiencing with his unit of kommandos. After deploying you just use them like a unit of slugga boyz, the burnas help a little with the missing numbers.

I like burnas thematically.

What is their most effective use?

Burna wagons?

Minimum sized squads for objective keeping/ shooting kustomblastas/fixing stuff?

Burnas are best in squads of kommandoes. If you want burna units, they can be used to fill free spaces in wagons and trukks but not very effectively.

Zomnivore wrote:
I like burnas thematically.

What is their most effective use?

Burna wagons?

Minimum sized squads for objective keeping/ shooting kustomblastas/fixing stuff?

I had minimal success just footslogging them, as most of my opponent's anti-infantry guns were busy shooting either lootaz or boy mobs that jumped into their face.
So they pretty much weren't killed because they are worse than everything else. Kind of plot armor?
Since spannaz with KMB cost more points than burnaz and their fixing range ridiculously low, they are pretty much useless. The only thing that is somewhat cute is that they can take kombi-skorchas. But if you do that, you might as well just take the character mek for +8 points with more wounds and character status, as well as the option for a grot oiler.

For burna wagons to make sense you would have to field two or three more wagons with stuff that your opponent wants to kill more. Unless you are playing 2500 points or more, there is simply not enough points.

People we Orkz play against almost unanimously HATE lootas.
Keeping a few in a bunker would almost always attract a lot of anti tank power, and its really not that easy to remove. I have had good luck with this idea in 7th.
Might save you a full turn of anti tank shooting for not a gak ton of points.

bonus* my homemade bunker with recently flamed right window.

 Dojo wrote:
People we Orkz play against almost unanimously HATE lootas.
Keeping a few in a bunker would almost always attract a lot of anti tank power, and its really not that easy to remove. I have had good luck with this idea in 7th.
Might save you a full turn of anti tank shooting for not a gak ton of points.

bonus* my homemade bunker with recently flamed right window.

I agree with the loota hatred, but I don't know where it comes from. People are deathly afraid of a 17-point model that gets 2/3 of a hit every turn.

Sure, if you take 15, they can put some some holes in units but at 255 points it's just not that big of a deal. There are completely unbuffable by any means and die when looked at.

To pay for the battlewagon for them makes them well over 400 points, and even that can easily die on turn 1. I've complained to GW about them (more than once) as they are no where near worth 17 points.

Its a real phenomena, perhaps because they have such a high potential, they just dont reach it frequently, but players have been burned by loota fire before so they vow to never let it happen again! I say we abuse that, if its another turn for our trukks, BW's, Killtanks, and others to get across the field its worth the price of a bunker and some lootas, cuz when our army gets there only lightly harassed their will is done all the same.

48 inch range makes Lootas a constant problem for enemies from deployment all the way to choosing an attack strategy. Most armies don't like the idea of moving into a 45 dice threat if they can't attack said threat and Lootas typically force an enemy to consider "Well what do I want to let him shoot?". Alot of weapons you fire at t4 models are small arms and usually don't have much range either. And on top of this, you are orkz, which means it's fifteen gitz with gunz he has to kill not five gitz with better guns. Yes most of us here will remove all but 3 of our fifteen Lootas and not expect the last three to do anything meaningful, but enemies will still look at that squad and treat them like a threat, which can also work in your favor.

It also works out that Lootas can be on one objective and fire at things standing on another object quite often.

Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

 JimOnMars wrote:
Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

Jim is right just use pay the extra 2 points and use Heavy Weapon teams.

In fact we shouldn't play Orkz we should play AM

Orkz are just a distraction army.

If we'z put on flak jackets on the Lootaz we can shoot like AM, nobody will notice.

This is now AM tactics thread

Affix Choppas!

Given that it doesn't seem likely that we'll be in the first part of the next wave of codices in 2018, it'll largely depend on how the point fixes are for Orks in Chapter Approved.

 Rismonite wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

Jim is right just use pay the extra 2 points and use Heavy Weapon teams.

In fact we shouldn't play Orkz we should play AM

Orkz are just a distraction army.

If we'z put on flak jackets on the Lootaz we can shoot like AM, nobody will notice.

This is now AM tactics thread

Affix Choppas!

Wow did you miss the point, sheesh.

The point was not to switch armies. The point was to write GW. Get them to fix the unit.

You're not often up against 15 AM AC teams though...

but yes, Lootas are too fragile for their cost.

 Oguhmek wrote:
You're not often up against 15 AM AC teams though...

but yes, Lootas are too fragile for their cost.

Yep. Because AM has vastly better units than superlootas...another reason why our crippled version should get a massive point drop. Write GW!

IMHO lootas may now work only along with green tides. They compete with anti infantry in a list with all infantries and they may get the benefit from a KFF or a painboy and from the mobs' LDs. Nothing impressive of course but they may be decent even with the current profile. They need a reduction in price though, 13-14 points per model would be appropriate, but 75% of the ork codex needs a 25% (or more) discount.

True they are a bit expensive, and adding the vost of a bunker is considerable, but i think for the points it adds quite a bit more durability, that combined with the hate for lootas i think makea difference. You can imagine if they drop a squad of termies or somthing to go deal with it and shoot it same turn? then it dies horribly, but you get a chunk of army moved forward and they have a squad of terminators who are going to struggle around the back of your board not doing much.

Lootas suffer the same problem they have suffered since 4th edition, too expensive, not durable enough and not enough dakka. Fix any one of those and the unit becomes ok, fix two of those issues and the unit becomes good. Fix all three and it becomes a Staple Unit in every list.

In 4th and 5th Lootaz were all but mandatory, some lists even played 45 of them which was the absolute maximum possible at that time.

The presence of lootaz everywhere was so massive that GW increased their points and move them from elite to heavy support in the last codex to prevent them from being used alongside kanz and battlewagons, the two top competitive lists for orks in 5th.
However, at that time the 6th edition had already neutered lootaz because they could no longer reliably destroy psyflemen, razorbacks, serpents or any flyers at all for that matter, so the additional nerf send them down from borderline playable to useless.

So, please enlighten me what problems they have "suffered" since 4th edition, except maybe being one of the best three units in the codex.

You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles, but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I didnt even know i could get lootas back in 4th which is the edition i started in, i dont think they were in the codex. But i always managed well enough with the sweet ass Choppa rule and my dreadnaught.

I didn't use lootas in 5-th cause they were not required when you have a ton of bodies that wreck things in mellee. Kinda like now. They used to be much better, however, and i acknowledge their possible utility back than. They were even ok in 6-th and passable in 7-th. But not now.

SemperMortis wrote:
You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

Neither green tide nor trukk rush were anywhere near a top tournament list. The only reason kan wall and battlewagons worked was because of 4++ KFF

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles,

Like fast las-plas razorbacks spammed by bloodangels?
Or like manticores and chimeras of the infamous leaf blower? You only way to fight those was to hope that your lootaz were able to shake or stun one or two of them until you would get lucky reserve rolls for your koptaz.
Not to mention they were the only thing that could actually touch long fangs while their reign of terror lasted...
... only to be outdone by psyflemen
Oh, and good thing no one could use DAVUs to score objectives from inside a serpent that could tank-shock onto objectives from the other side of the board last turn.

5th was all about spamming light to medium vehicles. You know, because there weren't any hull points, which meant that all shooty vehicles had a 3++ save because everything but 5 or 6 meant nothing.
High volume S7 shooting was the best you could do in 5th.

but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

Elite infantry? You mean like suicide melta terminators or sternguard?

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I somehow doubt that the tournament scene you seem to be remembering was actually that competitive.

Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

CP's aren't the area IMO where Orks need to compete with other armies. It's the core units that have the issue and nerfing your opponent's ability to use stratagems won't matter that much if they can just beat you the old fashioned way.

 Grimskul wrote:

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

CP's aren't the area IMO where Orks need to compete with other armies. It's the core units that have the issue and nerfing your opponent's ability to use stratagems won't matter that much if they can just beat you the old fashioned way.

I would agree, for the most part it’s not strategems that wreck orks, it’s having units that efficiently shred whatever variety of toughness and wounds value you brought being able to do their damage before being silenced.

I don't think the CP system needs any overhaul at all, once everyone has a bunch of useful stratagems and relics to chose from the difference between Codex and just rerolls and counter-offensive will disappear.
People are just complaining about it because the new guard can apparently get ridiculous amounts of CP without going out of their way. The next week or two will show how problematic this actually is.

Let's not make this thread about AM unless it's about how to split their heads with choppas.

In my area lootas were an auto-take in 5th edition. The typical tournament list was ghaz or generic warboss + big mek with KFF + 3 BWs + boyz + Nob bikers + lootas.

I used to always take a SAG big mek. He was rarely really effective at killing stuff but being the only large blast he pulled his weight forcing the enemy to hold coherency and thus minimise the retaliation damage to my footslogging boyz.

It wasn't good at killing anything but elite infantry out of cover though.
The big difference to 8th's SAG was that it was still awesome. I still remember the glorious game where my SAG mek mishapped to charge 60" across the board, punched the chimera he was targeting and died in its explosion.
It's up there with my warboss using a wrecked vendetta as a bridge to charge from the top level of one ruin to another.

Yeah, i mostly kept the shokk attakk gun mek for hilarity trying to fool my inner powergamer with "forcing my enemy to spread out" nonsense.

Most of the time he was just there doing nothing or exploding himself or friendly ork squads. Twas cool. Now i can't even justify taking a model with such a cool concept. Well, on the other hand, kommandoes are even better than before. And i used to run them in 7-th anywayz. Cause blood axes love kommandoes. 5-th edition kommandoes were nuts. Charging out of outflank won me not one game. Even though i haven't even used the broken combo of outflanking Snikrot+Ghazzy.

Some one please enlighten me,

How do I crush or win against the current competitive/casual meta? Besides spamming stormboyz.

I ran 150 boyz, with like 3 painboyz, 5 weirdboyz, 3 MANZ for the lulz, 2 biker mek with KFF, and zhadsnark.

Against a casual DA list I barely won against my opponent. Am I running my boyz wrong or something? I usually just bubble wrap boyz around character that gives buffs and advance and charge forward.

You need Kommandos and Storm boyz, along with DA jump to be in your enemies face turn 1 and lock them down while the rest of your stuff moves up. I don't rate the buff characters all that much, to me they are often win more options and the points would be better spent on more boyz.

Do you play maelstorm or eternal war missions?

Imho 8th ed started out ok for orks armies but as each codex comes out it's going downhill.

Several tenets of 8th are being brought right back into 7th ed mentality.
1) Each codex now have several options to fall back and either shoot or charge again or both.
2) each codex now has options to increase bs during overwatch
3) each codex now has options to stack high invul saves such as 2++.
4) each codex now has options to obtain several types of reroll misses and wounds and damage making shooting much stronger again.

In the beginning of 8th it appeared they were limiting these types of shenanigans and while it is still much better then 7th. It makes playing horde style melee lists extemely difficult. Gw will need to give orks some strong clan rules in order to keep up with the power creep.

If they would just fix our shooting, we could just blow up whatever is bothering us, like everyone else.

We need more dakka.

The optimist in me hopes they'll give us more/better dakka, I just can't see GW not trying to fix this. I also think they'll give us a strategem/tool of some sorts that punishes falling back. D6 wounds for a retreating against 20+ boyz or a strategem of a similar effect.

 Jidmah wrote:
If they would just fix our shooting, we could just blow up whatever is bothering us, like everyone else.

We need more dakka.

Agreed.

I've been thinking, I don't think it's particularly fair for Orks to be in particular shafted by -hit modifiers. What if they got a codex-wide rule called something like "Wave of bullets" or something, that says Ork units always hit on a natural 6, as they shoot so many rounds in the opponent's direction that "dodging out of the way" is not really feasible?

GW, theoretically, listens to us now. I know I sound like a broken record when saying this....but please write to their rules email and let them know.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 koooaei wrote:
Do you play maelstorm or eternal war missions?

Mainly eternal war casually, or NOVA mission or ITB missions.

ITB missions favors orks a bit more, as I can stretch a whole mob across at least 2 objectives.

They really need to make ork viable. Like make shoota assault 3 or slugga pistol 2, or make certain specialist ork unit bs +4.

Although warpath, da jump, and mass smite spam is fun.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

Neither green tide nor trukk rush were anywhere near a top tournament list. The only reason kan wall and battlewagons worked was because of 4++ KFF

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles,

Like fast las-plas razorbacks spammed by bloodangels?
Or like manticores and chimeras of the infamous leaf blower? You only way to fight those was to hope that your lootaz were able to shake or stun one or two of them until you would get lucky reserve rolls for your koptaz.
Not to mention they were the only thing that could actually touch long fangs while their reign of terror lasted...
... only to be outdone by psyflemen
Oh, and good thing no one could use DAVUs to score objectives from inside a serpent that could tank-shock onto objectives from the other side of the board last turn.

5th was all about spamming light to medium vehicles. You know, because there weren't any hull points, which meant that all shooty vehicles had a 3++ save because everything but 5 or 6 meant nothing.
High volume S7 shooting was the best you could do in 5th.

but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

Elite infantry? You mean like suicide melta terminators or sternguard?

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I somehow doubt that the tournament scene you seem to be remembering was actually that competitive.

simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

 fr3ddy wrote:

Mainly eternal war casually, or NOVA mission or ITB missions.

Try maelstorm. Eternal war missions are really hard for orks cause they favor defensive gunlines and orks are anything but this. Not familiar with Nova or ITB, so can't tell.

SemperMortis wrote:
simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

Moving goalposts again, are we? Weren't you just rambling about 4th and 5th in your last post?

I'll find you a bunch of tournaments with lootaz, if you find me a single one where green tide or trukk rush did well.

Matt root did well with ork greentide in 6th. That's about as far back as I remember someone doing well as in top 10. Depends what you define as tournament. I'm only considering grand and majors.

Warbosses or Weirdboyz? Which is better for the points? Warbosses have to footslog with the boyz and watch them get whittled down around them, but weirdboyz aren't very survivable and can only 'da jump' one squad of boyz a turn.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Warbosses or Weirdboyz? Which is better for the points? Warbosses have to footslog with the boyz and watch them get whittled down around them, but weirdboyz aren't very survivable and can only 'da jump' one squad of boyz a turn.

If you play footsloggers you need both. Warbosses are necessary for morale purpose, weirdboyz to buff the boyz, deliver them and they also can cast smite, which is always good. If you don't prlay footsloggers you can drop the psykers, but a warboss or ghaz is pretty much an auto take in any kind of list. Unless you play a big mek themed army with tons of artillery and walkers, in that case the warboss is not needed.

Kromlech/bitsowar just released some amazing looking 3rd party models for Wartrakks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/709-orc-sturmtankette.html

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

But I'd love to be proven wrong as an excuse to pick one up!

ajax_xaja wrote:
Kromlech/bitsowar just released some amazing looking 3rd party models for Wartrakks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/709-orc-sturmtankette.html

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

But I'd love to be proven wrong as an excuse to pick one up!

I think I asked this question a couple pages ago, with wartrakks vs skorchas vs buggies, but the general consensus seemed to be "not very good, but usable".

I might pick one of those up anyway though, just cos it looks cool lol

Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ajax_xaja wrote:

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

Wartrakks are definately overcosted for their point cost

They are fairly durable for their cost, but their shooting is poor, and their close combat is even poorer. I think you pay a lot for WS 3+ that on a model with only 4 S4 attacks, and for a deepstrike ability that is not very usefull on a fast unit with fairly long range shooting. The alternatives are warbikers and kans, and I think both options are better. Warbikers (in squads of three) get more dakka whereas kans are better in melee, especially with a banner.

I thought buggies were good last edtion when they were like AV10 3HP TL rokkits for 25 points.

Now they are 3 times that and I think die alot faster.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
I thought buggies were good last edtion when they were like AV10 3HP TL rokkits for 25 points.

Now they are 3 times that and I think die alot faster.

They had 2 HP. I prefered to use trukks instead. Just a wee bit more expensive but are much larger, tougher and have more utility cause they can tank shock and pick up units that would have to footslog when their own trukk gets wrecked.

Well, a full unit of 5 buggies with rokkits was only 125 points, now with that budget you can't even field 2. Since buggies are among my favorite units and I've always preferred fast stuff over bodies I sometimes played them in 7th edition, even with decent results.

Empty trukks could perform better for some specific tactics, but I typically fielded 8 trukks full of boyz, meganobz or bustas anyway and I didn't own 5 other trukks to add to that kind of list.They were 5 points more expensive than buggies, only have a single shot instead of a TL one and couldn't outflank. I mostly used them as a distraction unit or bullet magnet, but 5 TL rokkits, even with orks BS, sometimes actually did something.

Now they are truly unplayable. Only min squads of 1 with big shootas or skorchas may be viable but still sub optimal units and they don't have any synergy with the only competitive built we currently have, the spam of t-shirt save bodies plus characters.

Buggies (and koptaz) were essentially fast rokkits or skorchas.
With the index, the points and the survivability doubled, but the number of hits each models produces did not.
Both unit's don't work anymore because you essentially just get less weapons for the same points, even if those points are harder to kill now.

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

Awesome idea, fluffy as hell and probably wouldn't effect the game that much. Maybe rule it as "when your opponent uses a stratagem roll 1d3 (or d6 maybe?), on 3 it costs +1 CP"?

How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Pretty much.

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Not quite I don't think. Two reasons, the first being that they have access to better weapons even if you go the cheap route and only give them power stabbas (but better when you give them all big choppas). Second, the better save with 2 wounds each and runts to soak multi-damage weapons makes them a lot more survivable. I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

It would be really nice to get the option of having Shield nobs that actually get a 3 or 4 invuln save like everyone else. I could definitely see nobs using looted ogryn shields in the fluff.

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

Shrapnelbait wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Not quite I don't think. Two reasons, the first being that they have access to better weapons even if you go the cheap route and only give them power stabbas (but better when you give them all big choppas). Second, the better save with 2 wounds each and runts to soak multi-damage weapons makes them a lot more survivable. I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

It would be really nice to get the option of having Shield nobs that actually get a 3 or 4 invuln save like everyone else. I could definitely see nobs using looted ogryn shields in the fluff.

I'm with you on shield nobs. That would be an awesome and fluffy option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dojo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

Well the melee capabilities of the Gork are a bit better; more attacks. Also more shots to account for the poor BS. The trouble I've had with the Mork is that it often wounds itself (repeatedly) with all that plasma.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

No wonder, they cost like 50.

If you calculate the durability, they're surprisingly close to boy'z level of durability vs a lot of anti-infantry weapons with bad ap. A nob with a big choppa and an ammo runt costs like 5 boyz. Has two 4+ saves and one 6+ save (ammo runt). That's just a bit behind 5 6+ saves. However, d2 and higher ap weapons are quitedangerous for nobz. As for damage output, boyz do much more damage to 1w targets and close to identical damage to multi-wound targets. Even tough ones like vehicles. However, nobz are less numerous and thus get a concentrated punch whereas boyz are harder and not alway possible to position in a way you can maximise their damage output.

What really brings them apart is the fact that boyz are troops, thus have obsec and generate more CP. So, it's often a deiding factor. However, if you want to run nobz, fell free to do it. They are ok in footslogging lists. And they're even better than boyz in mech lists but that's a whole different story.

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Pretty much the only way to fit 30 boyz in a battlewagon... Now if battlewagons nobz wouldn't cost the same as 80 boyz

It's also worth noting that nobz with big choppas are more likely to take a high number of wounds off tough targets like vehicles, daemon princes or monstrous creatures, even though they are a lot worse than boyz (per point) against single wound targets.

I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

Niiru wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

That's not the right answer. I feel like a CSM player, always bemoaning my sh**** army.

Hopefully we'll get some good fixes (or patches until the codex comes out) in the Chapter Approved at the end of the year.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
Hopefully we'll get some good fixes (or patches until the codex comes out) in the Chapter Approved at the end of the year.

Gotta imagine Da Lucky Stik is coming back (hopefully a squad wide +1 to hit near bearer instead of just WS), and super kustom FF (one of my fav's).

 Geemoney wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

That's not the right answer. I feel like a CSM player, always bemoaning my sh**** army.

CSM are currently pretty good... did they used to be bad in 7th? I'd been out of touch with things during most of 7th. Right now, Chaos is in a good place. If the Ork codex was as good as the CSM one, things would be great.

CSM was bad for a long time.

 Dojo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

The gorkanaut has 50% higher damage output in melee. 18 attacks vs 12. And you field it to do damage in melee and to deploy with a couple of characters. Neither the gork nor the mork has any shooting worth mentioning, but of the two the morks shooting is worse, often dealing as much damage to the mork as to the enemy. And the gork has a skorcha which can hit something when advancing.

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Could you post your list and mission types you're playing. I keep hearing that orks lose most of the time in classic dawn of war missions where only the last turn matters. And the first suggestion is to simply play maelstorm missions. It's a good start. The army books are not balanced around dawn of war anymore.

Orks can't really win highly competitive games unless the opponent doesn't have much experience or the ork player has a huge amount of luck on his side. IMHO they're absolutely terrible now, they were much better in 7th edition. Now they're extremely dull and boring to play since they just have one decent (and not even that good) built. I've almost stopped playing them in favor of my other armies, I really hope the codex will fix them, but since there are so many issues to fix I think we would probably wait for 9th edition to get viable orks.

Blackie... youre depressing me. We dont even have a codex yet...

Would like to point out that horde orks have placed extremely well in 8-th competitive tourneys. Scoring points is a thing. And mellee hordes are pretty good at it. You can't really outlast a defensive shooty opponent but killing is not the main requirement to winning games.

I've lost 120 boyz protected by KFF and Mad Dok in two turns against an Emperor's Children (slaneshi CSM) player without my opponent breaking a sweat. He was using the noise marine stratagem and warptimed daemonettes with daemon prince and herald buff plus some mixed CSM heavy support.
Not exactly super-secret tech.

So I can see how someone bringing an actual competitive list might do better.

Personally, I'm currently building a DG army - because green is da best and I'm sick and tired of having no shooting units to back up my assault units.

Yes, but we are forced to bring green tides which I really can't stand. I'd rather stop playing orks and wait for the codex than playing the green tide once again

Luckily in my area there are some fluffy players so I can bring fun ork lists with the units I like, that are 75% of the codex at least, but against a TAC player I won't bring my orks anymore until the codex is out.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

Moving goalposts again, are we? Weren't you just rambling about 4th and 5th in your last post?

I'll find you a bunch of tournaments with lootaz, if you find me a single one where green tide or trukk rush did well.

Didn't mean to move the goal posts, 4th - 6th then.

And when was Green tide a top tournament list for orkz? 4th edition they did well. They also did well with speed freakz and Kanz. But I don't remember any top lists having 30 lootas as you said they did.

Attack squigs should go first in every combat!

 koooaei wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Could you post your list and mission types you're playing. I keep hearing that orks lose most of the time in classic dawn of war missions where only the last turn matters. And the first suggestion is to simply play maelstorm missions. It's a good start. The army books are not balanced around dawn of war anymore.

I am 0-2 with this list, I was tabled once, lost on points the other time (both maelstrom games). Like I said before hordes of boyz get mowed down in a couple turn in my meta; and I never have enough to win assaults. I worry if I get into a bigger meta with the list, I will not be able to deal with hordes.

Is it just me or do killbursta/killblastas look awesome for the price, I really wanna run 3 in a 2000 pt list

BAN wrote:
Is it just me or do killbursta/killblastas look awesome for the price, I really wanna run 3 in a 2000 pt list

They are decent, but I wouldnt call them the saving grace of the dex. Giga shoota is pretty bad so that leaves you with the kannon which is decent. I really fell that the Damage should have been higher, DD6 over D2 would have been nicer. I think the kill tank will get better if and when the cost of big shootas and rokkits drop cause right now they are way too expensive, Twin big shoota is almost as much as a ass cannon.

Would probably put nobz or kommandos in them and run them with stormboyz and jumping boyz.

I thought the Giga shoota looked good, 6d6 is a hell of a lot of shots, orks need high rate of fire

 Geemoney wrote:

I am 0-2 with this list, I was tabled once, lost on points the other time (both maelstrom games). Like I said before hordes of boyz get mowed down in a couple turn in my meta; and I never have enough to win assaults. I worry if I get into a bigger meta with the list, I will not be able to deal with hordes.

Spoiler:

Spearhead
Battlewagon
Deff Rolla
ard case

Battlewagon
Deff Rolla
ard case

Battlewagon
Deff Rolla

Big Mek w/ Bike
KFF

Spearhead
Battlewagon
Deff Rolla

Mek Gun x3
KMK x3
Grotz x15

Mek Gun x3
KMK x3
Grotz x15

Big Mek
KFF

Vangaurd
Tankbustaz x10
Boss Nob, rokkit
Bomb Squigs x1

Tankbustaz x10
Boss Nob, rokkit
Bomb Squigs x1

Kommandos x8
Burna x2
Nob

Boyz x19
Nob w/ Big Choppa

Boyz x19
Nob w/ Big Choppa

Warboss
Big Choppa
Kustom Shoota
Attack Squig

Warboss
Big Choppa
Kustom Shoota
Attack Squig

But that's not a horde.

Anywayz, hordes do get mowed down by defensive gunlines pretty easilly but it takes 2-3 turns to do so. And while they're shooting you down, they can't controle enough ground to score more points. That's the idea. Hordes don't really roll over the enemy. They push forward locking the opponent in his deployment zone while scoring points midboard themselves. And by the time you've run out of boyz you should have 2x more VP and the enemy should not be able to recover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BAN wrote:
I thought the Giga shoota looked good, 6d6 is a hell of a lot of shots, orks need high rate of fire

That's around 2.33 dead meq in cover. and 3.5 out of cover. I think the burst cannon is better because we do lack big guns. Anywayz, no matter what you pick, a killtank is gona be a good unit cause of it's overall utility.

 Geemoney wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Could you post your list and mission types you're playing. I keep hearing that orks lose most of the time in classic dawn of war missions where only the last turn matters. And the first suggestion is to simply play maelstorm missions. It's a good start. The army books are not balanced around dawn of war anymore.

I am 0-2 with this list, I was tabled once, lost on points the other time (both maelstrom games). Like I said before hordes of boyz get mowed down in a couple turn in my meta; and I never have enough to win assaults. I worry if I get into a bigger meta with the list, I will not be able to deal with hordes.

Spoiler:

Spearhead
Battlewagon
Deff Rolla
ard case

Battlewagon
Deff Rolla
ard case

Battlewagon
Deff Rolla

Big Mek w/ Bike
KFF

Spearhead
Battlewagon
Deff Rolla

Mek Gun x3
KMK x3
Grotz x15

Mek Gun x3
KMK x3
Grotz x15

Big Mek
KFF

Vangaurd
Tankbustaz x10
Boss Nob, rokkit
Bomb Squigs x1

Tankbustaz x10
Boss Nob, rokkit
Bomb Squigs x1

Kommandos x8
Burna x2
Nob

Boyz x19
Nob w/ Big Choppa

Boyz x19
Nob w/ Big Choppa

Warboss
Big Choppa
Kustom Shoota
Attack Squig

Warboss
Big Choppa
Kustom Shoota
Attack Squig

You have too many BWs, just bring 3 and cut most of the footslogging HQs, bring a biker big mek, a biker warboss and a footslogging cheap warboss to stick in a BW with boyz. Bring 2 min squads of kommandos instead of a bigger one. Tankbustas can ride in the same BW, but I prefer using trukks to carry them. Try a list with biker big mek, biker warboss, footslogging warboss, 3 units of boyz, 3 BWs, 10-20 tankbustas in 1-2 trukks, KMKs and kommandos. That's the list I mostly played in 8th edition, and unless your meta is extremely competitive I think it can be a decent suggestion that doesn't change that much the list you posted.

if its an accepted fact that BW's are overcosted by a large margine you must imagine that in comparison to your opponents you are getting alot less on the board than you should.
seems to me you could save more than 100 points by going down to 2 BW, useing zhadsnark for a bikerboss, and pumping up your footsloggers.

So the strategy is a horde 150+ and just sit on objectives and hope you win?

BTW the cheap warboss go in the BW's with the 19 boyz (which includes the nob). He is there to help with ld so the boyz can operate independently.

 Geemoney wrote:
So the strategy is a horde 150+ and just sit on objectives and hope you win?

BTW the cheap warboss go in the BW's with the 19 boyz (which includes the nob). He is there to help with ld so the boyz can operate independently.

I think that's the tourny meta style of play, but i personally feel like the best way to win is to cripple your enemy. I never once played just for objectives.
I think you can put a ton of boyz on the table and enough other gak to take the fight to the enemy. I have never ran a true tide in my life, i cant it would be not my style.
But i always use a good mix of boyz and toyz and in general i usually win most of my games, 8/10. But i literally only play Ork and i have become pretty adept at making
good decisions and target priority. Also i find alot of people underestimate my armies, until its too late ahahahahaha.

Thats said this edition i expect my win/loss ratio will slide a bit as i cant handle using horde but whatever feth it, i manage to have fun all the time regardless of outcome.
SO my personal take is to mix boyz and toyz, and i think i can pull it off. I dont think i could resort to just objective camping and call it fun and i dont think thats what the
spirit of Orks are, i think its to have fun and make a mess of the tidy plans of more serious people and armies.

 Geemoney wrote:
So the strategy is a horde 150+ and just sit on objectives and hope you win?

BTW the cheap warboss go in the BW's with the 19 boyz (which includes the nob). He is there to help with ld so the boyz can operate independently.

"Sitting" on objectives won't work. You advance towards the ennrmy with your 200 models scoring objectives as you march across them.

I don't have 200 models ready to go, so in the short term I will need to do something different.

 Geemoney wrote:
I don't have 200 models ready to go, so in the short term I will need to do something different.

What do you have in you're collection? Anything that could stand in for a Killtank? Gives us what ya got and we can give ya Ideas.
Big fan of the 2 separate squads of tankbustas ina trukk as long as theres more vehicular threats than just 1 trukk. but if you throw a few BW's across the board it could be overlooked.

I can honestly field almost anything, but I am capped at 90 boyz, 10 kommandos, and 60 stormboyz (not all painted) for a 8th edition horde style list.

Here is a variation of the previous list, based on the feedback:
Battle wagon + 20 boyz x3
trukk + 10 tankbustas x2

4 KMK Mek gunz

Big Mek, KFF
Big Mek w/ Bike, KFF
Zhardsnark or Biker Boss
Pain boy on Bike

That is 2038 points, so something needs to go.

Stormboyz, minimum size or maximum?

BAN wrote:
Stormboyz, minimum size or maximum?

Maximum.

They Cant deepstrike anymore and regardless of their speed must start on the board and make their way towards the foe, it would be nothing for a single small unit to damage a minimum squad and force morale annihilation. Unless you wanna run a boss nearby or bring Zagstrukk. Go with More.

So if i take zagstruck too still max mobs?

I think it wouldnt hurt, a large mob can also suffer alot casualties so the fearless thing would help. but if your shy on points you can skip him.

I use zagstrukk when I take Stormboyz, he is a decent character for the points, even with out the leadership buffs.

 Geemoney wrote:
I can honestly field almost anything, but I am capped at 90 boyz, 10 kommandos, and 60 stormboyz (not all painted) for a 8th edition horde style list.

Here is a variation of the previous list, based on the feedback:
Battle wagon + 20 boyz x3
trukk + 10 tankbustas x2

4 KMK Mek gunz

Big Mek, KFF
Big Mek w/ Bike, KFF
Zhardsnark or Biker Boss
Pain boy on Bike

That is 2038 points, so something needs to go.

Your lists durability comes from 4+ armour and 5++ KFFs, so I would double down on big meks (for repair and KFFs). The advantage of this list is that single dmg weapons are basically useless for the first turn or two, so I like that. However, if a tank is exposed, you're weak to high ap/dmg shots, and since you only have one KFF on a bike, those 5 vehicles will have a hard time fitting in one KFF bubble. You probably want the big mek on foot back with your mek gunz (which you should bring more of, by the way, like 10 i'm not kidding) so I recommend dropping zhardsnark for another big mek on bike w/ KFF. Your mechanised list doesn't really need the warboss advance/charge rule since your speed comes from the expensive vehicles. Plus, another big mek with KFF gives your tanks more options in which way they want to go, you can control more board space and prevent escapes if you're clever. The bane of assault armies is people that are faster than you, or ones that spread out, and the way your list looks, it feels as if you are forced to funnel down the line under one KFF which makes you vulnerable to these counter strategies.

Also, I would drop the painboy. You're not slogging along the field in a clean manner maximising your painboy 6+++ each turn. You look like an alpha strike army that has guaranteed charges, and you're paying a premium for that so you don't really need the durability of a painboy. Plus you just don't have the models to make him efficient, in the end will he save the lives of 20 orkz? Probably not. His dakka guns are irrelevant and his powerklaw is doing the same job as your tankbustahs and KMK's. I would bring 20 more boyz, split em in groups of 10 for objective holding or protecting the gunz. Another small thing, bring bomb squiggs. I find that if you are able to get some shots off with the tank bustahs, 18' will probably be fine anyway, especially since you've got a trukk deployment. But also, tank bustahs are almost always one-shot-only kinda dudes, once they are in range, you kill what you shoot (or don't) and then the return fire blows up the trukk and a stiff breeze kills the remainder of the boyz. I almost always save my command points for the squig bombs and get some real damage in. I like to use tankbustahs as 7 man suicide squads (5 rokkits 2 bombs) that I jump in and shoot once + charge. With the trukk strategy, I would still like to see two squig bombs in the vehicle, they'll fit.

To fit in all the extra points I'm recommending, I would drop a battlewagon. You might even have space to lift one boy squad up to 30, and hopefully include a weirdboy to jump them in turn 2 when your strike begins. If you have any more space, I would put deff rollahs on the remaining two BWs. Alternatively, you could bring a dakkajet if you have the model, its cheaper than a BW so the points should fit. It's shooting is quite good, and it fits your fully armoured list really well, it's also hard to hit and looks really juicy, so it might bait some heavy fire and protect your trukks. Talk it up heaps: "do you know my dakkajet shoots EIGHTEEN TIMES YO, strength 6! it even has AP. It's literally my MOST ACCURATE shooter (at only BS4+)!".

Personally I like a mek gunline (I bring 6-10 KMKs) protected with a stormboy counter charge. One squad of 30 stormboyz does work if the gunz are in trouble or there is a deepstrike backfield. I deploy the gunline really far forward, and have stormboyz hanging around backfield out of range until I know how to make them useful (or midfield in cover/LOS). I rarely use them as front line chargers these days, I have da jumping boyz for that. Mekz gunz are awesome, legit, not just for orkz standards. Durable as hell, come with a free bubble wrap, great board controllers, point efficient, and since they split into single units after deployment they reduce enemy shooting efficiency substantially. Also if you double down on mekz, you've got a major amount of repairing that starts to make a difference with these guns. The further forward you deploy your guns the better, 36' sucks for a gunline. There are also some crazy annoying tricks you can do with the gunner grotts as well once you start playing with them a lot. Their "take cover" rule is crazy easy to abuse (they take cover from each other, for example, so you can typically only shoot the grotts you're about to charge after deepstrike). With this sort of strategy, if I go first, I will own 4/6ft of the table without even really trying, and in maelstrom I can hold that for a few turns. If I use dajump turn one on boyz, then I own the entire board except their deployment. Most of that will be thanks to mek gunz.

Finally, like everyone else has says, drop the wagons and bring more boyz. 90 boyz + 60 stormboyz is a good number, then you can start talking about warboses and painboyz, but then we are talking about a different list. And just in case you're bringing powerklaws for your nobz, don't do that. Especially with your list's heavy ap already. Save the points, bring BCs or nothing, your list has enough armour piercing, and you're not bringing a banner to add value to these weapons.

Aaaaand thats my monthly post now boyz, see you in November.

Edit: just some crazy sh!t you can do with grots btw: They deploy 3" away from each other (for some reason) not the normal 2" coherency, so you can deploy out of coherency and get massive spread on turn 0 or turn 1. You only need 1 grot per KMK, so 1 KMK's worth of grots shoots 5 KMKS, the rest are independent groups of 5 that you should be moving (and advancing) outwards all over the place. by turn 2 (or maybe even turn 1 with some nice advance rolls) you can have pockets of 5 grots across the entire back field 9" away from each other, untargettable, zero chance of deepstrike. The biggest problem with this is flyers getting stuck in the middle of your grots, but you cant beat every strategy, and sometimes you can even beat this if you have enough grots. Screen in front of your gunz as well, take cover protects them thanks to the boyz charging, and obviously far enough that consolidate doesn't threaten your gunz. Keep them on the move so you have anoying 5 man screens as far away from each other as possible. I used to do concentric circles, which isn't bad, but I'm going for more of a splotchy pattern now, lots of half circles spotting the table. It takes literal turns to charge a gun through pathetic grots, and most of my opponents that have played my army more than once just don't bother and instead shoot into them if they feel the need. With grots in the midfield, I can often use them as a shooting screen for vulnerable weirdboyz (character rule) who have just jumped a crew. Oh and did I mention grots count toward wierdboy psychic boosts? can you say guaranteed overcharged smites? even after you've jumped a 30man squad forward. Take cover grots are amazing, the strategic benefit of having these jokers around with that special rule is potentially worth the points for them alone! let alone you have a heavy D6 armour shredder for free with them. They are the smallest unit of most useful jokers you've seen on the board.

 Geemoney wrote:
So the strategy is a horde 150+ and just sit on objectives and hope you win?

Unfortunately the most effective orks' built is currently a horde of 180+ t-shirt save dudes (boyz, stormboyz, kommandos) plus buffing characters (warboss, ghaz, zagstruk, weirdboy, bik mek with kff, painboy/mad dok), nothing else.

 Blackie wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
So the strategy is a horde 150+ and just sit on objectives and hope you win?

Unfortunately the most effective orks' built is currently a horde of 180+ t-shirt save dudes (boyz, stormboyz, kommandos) plus buffing characters (warboss, ghaz, zagstruk, weirdboy, bik mek with kff, painboy/mad dok), nothing else.

That is simply not the case.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Josh-Leondaris-2nd-Overall-EastCon-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Attack-X-2017.pdf

I didn't even need to look very far to find successful ork lists with a quarter or less of their points spent on boyz. Stop pretending the sky is falling and work with the tools we have.

LOL 8 weirdboyz. Second list is actually a green tide with buffing characters and a few points of artillery.

First list look quite average, I guess the player that brought it is a very good one, or maybe just extremely lucky.

I've just tried the green tide a few times to be honest, because I hate playing with tons of footslogging dudes. Yes we can have decent results even with other units but if we're talking about very competitive games green tides are by far the best built we have, I don't seen tons of orks lists winning tournaments, especially if they're not green tides.

In casual games 75% of the codex actually work and is fun to play.

Inside those two lists, who are playing in tournaments that have 30 maelific lord armies (for example), include:
over 10 different HQ choices and support staff,
weirdboyz,
kommandoz,
stormboyz,
boyz,
gretchin,
big gunz,
morkanaut,
and dakkajets.

I can link more lists if you want, I know I've seen lists with mek gunz, tank bustaz, trukkz, even flashgitz and a giant squiggoth.

We're looking at over half our codex turning up in competitive play (and doing quite well) and when you get shown evidence of this you just brush it off as extremely lucky. There are some things, like killtanks, that I'm extremely surprised I have not seen in a list yet, because I'm sure that vehicle is competitively costed.

Edit: bro, I found a list with lootahs in it! http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Elliott-Levy-2nd-Overall-Rampager-GT-2017.pdf
Edit x2: I might add, that these successful lists have all been pretty recent, and include fairly shooty lists (lots of gun lines). Which quite a few people in these forums seem to think is not viable. Just saying, maybe check your facts? Green tide is out there, but maybe that's not all.

But other than searaching lists on the internet have you actually played orks in 8th edition?

The green tide is not only boyz plus characters, as I mentioned before, it also includes stormboyz and kommandos but they're just faster boyz and sneaky boyz.

Where are the trukks, nobz, meganobz, BWs, koptas, buggies, 5-6 types of mek gunz, kans, stompa, burnas, tankbustas, warbikes, 3 types of fliers? Currently only a few units are actually viable and tipycally in the same combinations, t-shirt save dudes with other t-shirts dudes and eventually cheap artillery (kannons or hidden lobbas, not KMKs for example).

One good result at tournaments means nothing, I've seen very average lists winning local tournaments over the years, it's still a game of dice. Try to play that list with a morkanaut at high levels for some games, you'll see yourself how it actually performs. Find full battle reports about those lists, that would be "evidence".

I've played almost everything in the ork codex, with the exceptions of kans, flyers and stompas which I don't own, I've tried several different combinations, and 95% of my lists didn't have more than 90 among boyz, stormboyz or kommandos. Even with some results against competitive lists, but tipycally against any competitive TAC player there's only the green tide standing. And small variants of green tides, like the cheap artillery spam or the weirdboy spam.

I didn't consider the kill tank since in my area FW is basically banned, but I don't deny its effectiveness.

What is up with people in this forum asking if I even play Orkz. Is it really that hard to believe there are people out there that are playing non-green tide and doing well? You're blowing off artillery spam as if its barely a choice, weirdboy spam as if its even relevant, and combinations of these things like it doesn't matter.

I'm not denying the things you listed have not seen results, but you listed like half the codex (maybe less?), that's still half a codex to work with.

Try not to be so defeatist when it comes to the army. And in my opinion, especially towards people asking for advice on Orkz. Imagine if you're asking how to make your army better and the only response people give is depressing "green tide or gtfo" responses, when 1) that's just not true, and 2) it asks them to change their army so much that they probably won't follow the advice anyway. There's no "tactics" in this thread in that circumstance, just people complaining.

Orkz are not topping tables, they are not teir 1, and they sorely need help with their codex. But they are still getting results, and are doing so with a variety of things.

hollow one wrote:
What is up with people in this forum asking if I even play Orkz. Is it really that hard to believe there are people out there that are playing non-green tide and doing well? You're blowing off artillery spam as if its barely a choice, weirdboy spam as if its even relevant, and combinations of these things like it doesn't matter.

I'm not denying the things you listed have not seen results, but you listed like half the codex (maybe less?), that's still half a codex to work with.

Try not to be so defeatist when it comes to the army. And in my opinion, especially towards people asking for advice on Orkz. Imagine if you're asking how to make your army better and the only response people give is depressing "green tide or gtfo" responses, when 1) that's just not true, and 2) it asks them to change their army so much that they probably won't follow the advice anyway. There's no "tactics" in this thread in that circumstance, just people complaining.

Orkz are not topping tables, they are not teir 1, and they sorely need help with their codex. But they are still getting results, and are doing so with a variety of things.

Or it could be that the Ork armies that are doing the best in Big tournaments are based around exactly what he said, HQs and Boyz (which includes stormboyz/Kommandos)

Mek Gunz/Artillery are used as are grotz as back field objective grabbers, not as offensive units. Think of them as throw away units.

The Crap units in our codex are

Burna Boyz
Nobz
Meganobz
Nob Bikers
Flash Gitz
Lootas
Warbikers
Deff Koptas
Warbuggies
Wartrakks
Skorchas
Trukkz
Battlewagonz
Killa Kanz
Deff Dreadz
Morkanaut
Stompa
Burna Bommer
Dive Bommer (Whatever the feth its called)
And I would argue the Dakkajet isn't really worth taking either.



So in reality, the majority of the index is trash, we have a couple of useful options and that is it.

I think we should specify that painboyz work especially well for healing wierdboyz and Ghaz in the op. But currently, Grotsnik is always more preferable than a footslogging painboy. Cause he is basically one. But better.

And...probably move burna bomber from red to yellow because of how you can play around with their special 4+ on-death explosion that deals 3 mortal wounds to anything around. This also requires some better positioning on your part - which is not always possible - but a couple ork squads loose much less from 3 mortal wounds than a couple marine squads.

I disagree with SemperMortis that most of the index is trash. We have a lot of semi-viable units like the gorkanaut, Nobz, battlewagons, tankbustas, the Dakkajet and burna-bommers. But if you field them against a competetive list like guilliman-assaultcannon-soup then you get annihilated. Every time. If you bring 200 Boyz (or kommandos/stormboyz) and characters for the balance then, and only then, you have a chance.

Personally I like playing infantry-heavy Orks, and I like the green tide. But playing with 200 models is too extreme, it is simply too much of a hassle.

For playing semi-competetively the index is good. Most of our units is decent, and there a only a few real stinkers (looking at you, Stompa)

pismakron wrote:
I disagree with SemperMortis that most of the index is trash. We have a lot of semi-viable units like the gorkanaut, Nobz, battlewagons, tankbustas, the Dakkajet and burna-bommers. But if you field them against a competetive list like guilliman-assaultcannon-soup then you get annihilated.

It goes without saying that the crappiness threshhold is much higher for casual play.

But even in competitive play you might sometimes integrate the average units in your army when they synergise well. For example, kommandoes on their own are not that amazing. Just too expensive for regular boyz with infiltrate. But add in the pressure of a greentide or stormboyz, a teleporting 30-strong blob and kommandoes start to shine. Dakkajets and bombers are quite overpriced for the average damage output and lack of utility. But take into consideration that the rest of your list might lack means of dealing with far away units or even regular bauble-wraps and this mediocre flyers suddenly get a place in your list and perform ok.

But keep in mind that all this options still require a solid core to function. And solid core are boyz, stormboyz and characters. That's probably how GW intended it. But the problem is that the core is so much better than the rest that you can play with 'just' core and it will often be more effective.

If the person says that: "i loose 95% games with my battlewagons, mek gunz and tankbustas" what else can we suggest other than "take more boyz and stormboyz or play casual games"? Unfortunately, you can't just mesh average units together and get a strong list out of it. Not with orks. Not at the moment.

pismakron wrote:
We have a lot of semi-viable units like the gorkanaut, Nobz, battlewagons, tankbustas, the Dakkajet and burna-bommers. But if you field them against a competetive list like guilliman-assaultcannon-soup then you get annihilated. Every time. If you bring 200 Boyz (or kommandos/stormboyz) and characters for the balance then, and only then, you have a chance.

For playing semi-competetively the index is good. Most of our units is decent, and there a only a few real stinkers (looking at you, Stompa)

This. Against competitive armies there's very little we can do, unless we take our best built and its small variants. Some of the lists that placed in tournaments also benefit from some tournament's format which limit the game to 3 turns usually while a regular game of 40 lasts 5-7. The same lists won't reach the same results in regular 40k games. I've tried the gunlines for example, with 10-20 lootas and 10 mek gunz, but against competitive opponents turns 3+ are very hard.

I don't have 200 models ready to go

This is the lament of every Ork player this edition! Sales of Ork boys and carry cases (soon to be renamed 'boyz boxez') must be through the roof...

hollow one wrote:
What is up with people in this forum asking if I even play Orkz. Is it really that hard to believe there are people out there that are playing non-green tide and doing well? You're blowing off artillery spam as if its barely a choice, weirdboy spam as if its even relevant, and combinations of these things like it doesn't matter.

To be fair, all of those lists are pretty much exactly what's he was talking about. 8 Weirdboyz is just around 500 points, the big gun spam is barely half of that. The entire rest of all those lists is pretty much boyz, deep striking boyz and fast boyz (each one is still running 80-105 boyz) plus a bunch of support characters. Not green tide, but definitely the footslogger archetype.
The only two really surprising things to me on those lists are the morkanaut and lobbas.

I'm not denying the things you listed have not seen results, but you listed like half the codex (maybe less?), that's still half a codex to work with.

When counting SAG/KFF, three big gunz and six mek guns separately, the codex has 54 entries. Those three lists use 19 out of those, plus one FW model. So about a third.
7 of those choice are HQs though, which leave 8/12 elites, 5/6 fast attack, 13/16 heavy support, 3/4 flyers and the trukk (only DT) and the stompa (only LoW) unused, not counting FW.

Try not to be so defeatist when it comes to the army. And in my opinion, especially towards people asking for advice on Orkz. Imagine if you're asking how to make your army better and the only response people give is depressing "green tide or gtfo" responses, when 1) that's just not true, and 2) it asks them to change their army so much that they probably won't follow the advice anyway. There's no "tactics" in this thread in that circumstance, just people complaining.

You're not wrong, but getting 7+ weirdboyz or 10+ big gun units isn't that much less of a change than going full green tide.

The real issue is that the centerpieces of many archetypes are no longer viable, so no battlewagon bash, trukk rush, speed freaks, dread mob or deff wing. It's comparable to all those people telling Black Templar/Space Wolves/Whitescar/Blood Angel players to just have their army count as Ultramarines and use Roboute Guilliman.

In any case, the original question was about tournament winning ork lists. This means beating Mortarion/Magnus tag team, Roboute Guilliman and his donut of assault cannon razorbacks, tripple bane blades and armored companies. That's probably why those armies are doing so well, weird boyz, kannons and even lootaz work pretty well against all of those. Plus boyz (and also kannons) are pretty good at clearing out conscripts, so that's covered as well.

If anything, those army lists have shown that orks can still play the meta, even if TAC is dead. I guess that's better than nothing

What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

Zomnivore wrote:
What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

Nobz still work best with ammo runts effectively taped to the front of their chest as ablative wounds, so I would say ideally, around 6 nobz with 6 ammo runts to fill up the transport capacity. Generally speaking, Big Choppas are the one of the best weapons and relatively cost efficient choice for Nobz squads since they want to be thrown at units that Boyz have more issues with, which are upper bracket toughness multi-wound models. You can play around with the wargear a bit, but it largely depends on your meta. If you face off against a lot of MEQ, power stabbas may be worth the investment. If you're facing mainly squishies like guardsmen or tau, big choppas will suffice (hell, normal choppas work fine too if you're short on points). I would only go for one power klaw/killsaw per 5-6 nobz, simply because they aren't the go-to weapon they used to be. Other weapons like the kombi-skorcha and rokkit IMO only work in Power Rating games since otherwise they're too expensive and are unlikely to contribute once the opponent knows what they're armed with.

 koooaei wrote:
But keep in mind that all this options still require a solid core to function. And solid core are boyz, stormboyz and characters. That's probably how GW intended it. But the problem is that the core is so much better than the rest that you can play with 'just' core and it will often be more effective.

If the person says that: "i loose 95% games with my battlewagons, mek gunz and tankbustas" what else can we suggest other than "take more boyz and stormboyz or play casual games"? Unfortunately, you can't just mesh average units together and get a strong list out of it. Not with orks. Not at the moment.

I totally agree with this. I personally bring no less than 90 boyz and 30 stormboyz. I'm really attacking the nuanced position of being defeatist about your options. It's easy to be dismissive and stop experimenting because efficiency-wise boyz are the best. I'm not arguing with that. But as the meta shifts, the game evolves, LOS and objectives in tournaments change, then so do our considerations of what is good and how/where to experiment. The fall back of "boyz+HQ or nothing" is not a healthy discussion, and in my opinion, far too common in these forums.

For example, the meta is shifting toward horde, green-tide will suffer (or already is) as weapon load-outs compensate for that. As we all stick to our "boyz or nothing" strategy we will lose ranks, and drop off major tournament positions because we are not considering alternatives, I don't think we are having that discussion here. However, I've noticed you are often talking about what type of objective game people are playing (recommending at least play Maelstrom missions) when they are complaining about Ork effectiveness, which I think is a really useful thing to discuss. Unfortunately next to you, there are people telling that same person "180+ boyz or nothing".

Zomnivore wrote:
What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

5 or 6 all with big choppas and all with ammo runts, some people use power stabbas but I never considered nobz as a an infantry unit.

I prefer tankbustas as anti tank, and actually we do have a plastic kit since tankbustas are basically boyz with rokkit launchas. They're also extremely easy to convert by mixing useless spared combi rokkits with burnas, sluggas or shootas. There are lots of arms with bombs in the boyz and stormboyz kits.

I'm currently thinking about scratch building some kans. I've never owned them and so I have zero experience with kans, only faced them sometimes in previous edition. At 60ish points per kan they seem utterly expensive, I'd like to ask what's their better loadout? Rokkits seem the obvious choice but artilley and tankbustas are clearly better, so I'm stuck with KMBs and grotzookas. Grotzookas don't look great on paper but I actually lack some ranged anti infantry and I'm tempted. KMBs really attract me though.

Zomnivore wrote:
What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

I like the idea of combi skorchas. Some people write them of as too expensie, but I think a handfull of nobs with skorchas (and some extra runts in case the trukk dies, to eat the casualties), could be a great way to clear out infantry. They are probably better than burna boyz at least. 5 of them with runts are not that expensive at about 200 points. and with s5 and auto hits they can also scratch some tougher targets when needed.
If you like skorchas as weapons I thinks nobz are the cheapest and easiest way to get many of them, even though it is still an expensive unit.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm currently thinking about scratch building some kans. I've never owned them and so I have zero experience with kans, only faced them sometimes in previous edition. At 60ish points per kan they seem utterly expensive, I'd like to ask what's their better loadout? Rokkits seem the obvious choice but artilley and tankbustas are clearly better, so I'm stuck with KMBs and grotzookas. Grotzookas don't look great on paper but I actually lack some ranged anti infantry and I'm tempted. KMBs really attract me though.

Keep in mind that grotzookas are heavy and thus get -1 to hit when moving. Big Shootas are pretty much strictly better if you just want to kill infantry.

KMB are okayish since they have decent AP and the mortal wound helps as often as it hurts. If you manage to get multiple damaged kanz, you can split wounds between them 5th edition style. Just make sure that you have two CP ready when three kanz blow in one turn
D3 damage is what makes them mediocre though. They are good at killing stuff with one or two wounds, but really doesn't perform well against anything with 3+ wounds or a 4++ save (or better). In the end you still get one shot per kan, you are not going to wipe out a squad of hellblasters with those even if you manage to wound three.

In my experience rokkits are the best though. Fixed 3 damage is great when you hit on 4+, you wound most vehicle on 3+. Every single rokkit that goes past a save will hurt, 3 rokkits hits are far from impossible and take out many things in this game.

No matter what you pick, magnetize those kanz though. They are by far the easiest model in the game to magnetize: just buy circular, flat magnets that fit into the arm sockets, glue another one to the weapon arm, done. Just make sure they all face the same way

Gitdakka wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

I like the idea of combi skorchas. Some people write them of as too expensie, but I think a handfull of nobs with skorchas (and some extra runts in case the trukk dies, to eat the casualties), could be a great way to clear out infantry. They are probably better than burna boyz at least. 5 of them with runts are not that expensive at about 200 points. and with s5 and auto hits they can also scratch some tougher targets when needed.
If you like skorchas as weapons I thinks nobz are the cheapest and easiest way to get many of them, even though it is still an expensive unit.

SO 5 Kombi skorcha nobs are 180 points
10 Burnas are 170 points

so that is 5D6 S5 hits so 17.5 S 5 hits and 1.67 S4 hits
vs 10D3 S4 hits 20 S4 hits

Against T3 (the point at which they would be both the same to wounds and 5+ save

Nobz deal 10.46 unsaved wounds
Burnaz deal 8.89

Both are probably still a bit expensive, but it goes to show just how bad Burnas are

1) Kombiskorchas are wayyy too expensive. Skip them and bring more bodies. In fact this should be the mantra of Ork 8th edition listbuilding: "Skip it and bring more bodies'

2) On Kans I would take rokkit, kmb, big shoota, grotzooka, skorcha in that order of preference. When moving the grotzooka is no better than a big shoota.

3) Big meks and banner nobs buff kans appreciably. Warbosses are also helpful.

4) I love the wound shenanigans om KMB-equipped that Jidmah proposed. It is almost like the old Nob biker wound round robin.

Breng77 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
What is the best loadout for nobs in trukks?

Like how many nobs do you take vrs grots etc.

I'd rather take nobz over tankbustas because they have a plastic kit.

I like the idea of combi skorchas. Some people write them of as too expensie, but I think a handfull of nobs with skorchas (and some extra runts in case the trukk dies, to eat the casualties), could be a great way to clear out infantry. They are probably better than burna boyz at least. 5 of them with runts are not that expensive at about 200 points. and with s5 and auto hits they can also scratch some tougher targets when needed.
If you like skorchas as weapons I thinks nobz are the cheapest and easiest way to get many of them, even though it is still an expensive unit.

SO 5 Kombi skorcha nobs are 180 points
10 Burnas are 170 points

so that is 5D6 S5 hits so 17.5 S 5 hits and 1.67 S4 hits
vs 10D3 S4 hits 20 S4 hits

Against T3 (the point at which they would be both the same to wounds and 5+ save

Nobz deal 10.46 unsaved wounds
Burnaz deal 8.89

Both are probably still a bit expensive, but it goes to show just how bad Burnas are

Why not both? For just 19 points, you can upgrade up to three burnaz to spannaz with kombi-skorchas. Put in a trukk for maximum (in)efficiency.

pismakron wrote:1) Kombiskorchas are wayyy too expensive. Skip them and bring more bodies. In fact this should be the mantra of Ork 8th edition listbuilding: "Skip it and bring more bodies'

The mantra seems to be "skip it and bring more wounds[i]". Not just for orks. The more wounds you have, the more likely you are going to have enough left to punish glass cannon alpha strikes.

3) Big meks and banner nobs buff kans appreciably. Warbosses are also helpful.

I have found that banner nobz don't really help kanz at all. They will ruin elite infantry and small character with or without them and fail to kill vehicles and horde units either way. The nob doesn't enable them to do something they couldn't do before, just bring another kan instead. You gain about the same amount of close combat hits and another shot.

4) I love the wound shenanigans om KMB-equipped that Jidmah proposed. It is almost like the old Nob biker wound round robin.

Pretty much yes. Just don't try this on units of 6 kanz, at some point three or more of them will pop at once and kill all others through moral.

That reminds me, I haven't fielded my nob bikers yet this edition... too bad the biker doc cannot fix them at when moving more than 5", otherwise they might almost be viable

I have 5 kombi nobs for both rokkits and skorchas so I really appreciate you comparing them.

Its good to know that the skorcha nobs aren't terrible compared to burnas

I just liked the look of shooty nobs.

Still got another kit of big choppa nobs to build so I'll have like 10 of those.

I've got some grots I can say are ammo runts I guess.

What did the guy who spammed a grot army in a tournament do with his grots? I'd love to know. It was mentioned earlier that he'd placed high in a tournament.

What are pros and cons of Choppas vs. Shootas? How do you use your Choppa Booyz and your Shoota boyz? Who do you Jump (and where) first? Who do you charge or shoot with either? What's the ratio of Choppas to Shootas in your army (and in a unit if you mix them)?

 Blackie wrote:

I'm currently thinking about scratch building some kans. I've never owned them and so I have zero experience with kans, only faced them sometimes in previous edition. At 60ish points per kan they seem utterly expensive, I'd like to ask what's their better loadout? Rokkits seem the obvious choice but artilley and tankbustas are clearly better, so I'm stuck with KMBs and grotzookas. Grotzookas don't look great on paper but I actually lack some ranged anti infantry and I'm tempted. KMBs really attract me though.

I've only tried kanz once in a rather casual game vs necrons. Though, he brought a lot of anti-tank because i warned him i'd play walker wall list. I ran 2 squads of 3 with kustom megablastas and one squad of 3 bigshoota kanz. They performed much better than deff dreads (of which i brought two with bigshootas) and, interestingly enough, better than a gorkanaught cause it got focused down and was wrecked befor it's 2-d turn. Kustom megablastas were pretty ok. Killed a couple immortals when needed, took some wounds of vehicles here and there. They're better than rokkits vs cron vehicles cause they ignore rokkit damage on a roll of 1-2. Bigshootas were pretty meh. The main feature of KMB is that they can bug the wound system like Jidmah said.

All in all, kanz are pretty ok for points when you also have a bunch of relatively slow multi-wound targets on board...like...i don't know...other walkers or mek gunz. Or if you throw them on a flank without a lot of enemy anti-tank as a mix-up fpr ypur boyz. 3 kanz cost like ~30 boyz. They don' feel like pulling this weight but they do take much less space and can concentrate punch which is a good thing. They ARE much better than meganobz for the identical point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azhday wrote:
What are pros and cons of Choppas vs. Shootas? How do you use your Choppa Booyz and your Shoota boyz? Who do you Jump (and where) first? Who do you charge or shoot with either? What's the ratio of Choppas to Shootas in your army (and in a unit if you mix them)?

Both shootas and choppas have their place. I've tried different approaches. Full choppas, full shootas, mixed squads. Shootas generally have a lower statistical damage output but they can still deal a bit of damage on the move even if you advance. And sometimes you don't even want to engage in combat. Another thing to consider is DaJumping blobs of boyz. Some people prefer to get more shootas to be able to deal more damage emidiately on the land cause there's still ~50% you aren't making a 9" charge and the squad can be set in a suicidal position. Some people prefer to jump sluggas to maximise the damage output if they do make a charge. There is no true winner here. It all depends on battlefield situation, your opponent's army and your own playstyle.

As for me, i've found that 10 shootas+19 choppas and a shoota nob suit my playstyle best. We still need at least some shooting to deal with enemy bauble wraps. And you don't even loose mellee punch from time to time cause back lines are not guaranteed to strike in mellee at all. For me, it's the best of both worlds. Besides, you get the flexibility. If you want to maximise mellee damage, you kill off shootas. If you want to hang back and just sit and ruin, hide, score and you know the enemy is not going to try to engage this squad in mellee, you kill off choppas first.

Azhday wrote:
What are pros and cons of Choppas vs. Shootas?

Well, choppas are more choppy and shootaz are more shooty

Seriously though, choppas usually do a lot more damage, but need to reach combat to do so.

How do you use your Choppa Booyz and your Shoota boyz?

Who do you Jump (and where) first? Who do you charge or shoot with either?

What's the ratio of Choppas to Shootas in your army (and in a unit if you mix them)?

I use all choppas boyz except for one or two jumping units. Since there is a decent chance to fail the charge after jumping, I want to make sure I do some damage at least. Unless impossible I always try to shoot something I'm not going to charge.

Where really depends on the game. If you can get behind your enemies, or they have an exposed flank, do that. Otherwise blocking the way to an objective is always a good idea, jumping the entire unit into terrain with cover might also cause a minor annoyance.

Some people here have reported good results from mixing in shootaz with slugga boyz and removing them as casualties first, and I tend to agree with them. However, I find counting shoota boyz in a boyz mob too troublesome for the few wounds you get. I prefer finishing the game over that.

Kannons... Grot gunners cant be targetted unless they are closest... Good objective campers comparable to sinkrot but less points and spamable. Ill try them

I sincerely hope that I'm not setting up anyone for disappointment, but the apparent trend of letting heavy vehicles fire twice for half moment bodes well for units with the mobile fortress rule. I think that could also be the type of thing to be put into Chapter approved, rather than waiting for the codex.

 Chris521 wrote:
I sincerely hope that I'm not setting up anyone for disappointment, but the apparent trend of letting heavy vehicles fire twice for half moment bodes well for units with the mobile fortress rule. I think that could also be the type of thing to be put into Chapter approved, rather than waiting for the codex.

I actually came here from the Eldar threads to pass on some hope to my Orky brethren. As an Ork and Eldar player, I have been waiting on the Eldar codex for the last few weeks with bated breath, because I knew that if they did a bad job with Eldar (and Tyranids next month) then Orks would likely be getting a shoddy job too.

As far as Traits went, they were pretty much copy/pasted jobs from the Space Marine lists. The usual fare of 6+++ FNP for one Craftworld, -1 to hit outside of 12" for another (these are by far the most powerful two I think), and a couple of odd ones like +1 leadership and reroll 1's on shuriken weapons.

So there's a good chance one Ork Klan will get -1 to hit. Might get some re-rolls on assault weapons, or on certain types like Shootas. Nothing crazy, and not as fluffy as the IG codex was, but it seems like GW are only bothering with a detailed and fluffy job on the Imperial Guard codex. However, they traits aren't terrible, and will at least help.


HOWEVER today we got the big news for Eldar, which I wanted to come here and share as it shows the biggest hope for the future of Orks.

Points. Reductions.

I was expecting drops, but I was expecting them to be minor. 1 or 2 points per model on some infantry, maybe 10 points off a Falcon. Nothing major, some improvements but nothing that will really change much. Wouldn't help Orks a lot.

However, some examples -

Spiritseers HQ was dropped by about 20 points.
Rangers were dropped from 20 ppm to 12 ppm.
Falcons dropped by 50 (!) points.
Jetbikes dropped by about 6 points per model
Dire Avengers dropped by about 6 points per model


A lot of these reductions are 40% cheaper. Imagine that for Orks. A battlewagon 50 points cheaper. Or Meganobs 25% less than they are now. It's actually possible, as GW actually are making such large changes to units that needed them.

Stratagems also become important. Infiltrating units for 1CP is now a common thing, and Orks are likely to get it. Things like being able to fire tank weapons twice if they don't move are likely too. Imagine what they might do with a Loota or Flash Gitz stratagem along these lines.

So yeh, we might have to wait until well into 2018 for these changes (unless Chapter Approved throws some previews our way with a few points changes), but I wanted to come spread the hope I have.

Makes me glad I started on that Looted Maulerfiend conversion last week

So there's a good chance one Ork Klan will get -1 to hit

Fingers crossed on -1 to hit blood axes

What do you guys think what ork units will get stratagems specific to them and what those stratagem could be?

Please start a new thread (or dig up one of the existing ones) for wishlisting. I know this is pretty much an ork chatroom, but it's still supposed to be about tactics.

There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

I also think blood axe will get -1 to hit outside of 12in. Not sure how that helps bloodaxe kommandoes that want to deploy just over 9in to charge first turn or use thier burnas but whatever.

gungo wrote:
I also think blood axe will get -1 to hit outside of 12in. Not sure how that helps bloodaxe kommandoes that want to deploy just over 9in to charge first turn or use thier burnas but whatever.

Kommandos aren't the only unit that benefits from deploying in choice positions/outside the deployment zone - Lootas, Flash Gitz, Tanksbustas; there's lots of things that could use advance deployment into terrain/cover, to get better firing positions+survivability.

gungo wrote:
There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

There might also be something like "orks don't aim they simply shoot." making them immune to modifiers.

I also think blood axe will get -1 to hit outside of 12in. Not sure how that helps bloodaxe kommandoes that want to deploy just over 9in to charge first turn or use thier burnas but whatever.

It will definitely helps blood axe battlewagons and walkers. Luckily my entire army is already painted in camouflage colors

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

There might also be something like "orks don't aim they simply shoot." making them immune to modifiers.

I could see that being for any infantry with with guns, but any git in a tank is gona know hes gotta try a bit harder. But i can see lootas for example just blazing away for the kek of it.

 Dojo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

There might also be something like "orks don't aim they simply shoot." making them immune to modifiers.

I could see that being for any infantry with with guns, but any git in a tank is gona know hes gotta try a bit harder. But i can see lootas for example just blazing away for the kek of it.

I can't remember where I saw/heard it, but I have a vague memory of a stratagem or relic or something that said that a certain unit could only be hit on 6's regardless of modifiers (for that phase, or something). Like I said, cant remember where this was, so it might have just been a rumoured power and not a real one.

However, if true, it would follow that Orks might have a power (or even a trait) that said "Ork unit always hit on a 6+, regardless of modifiers"

In that case, they can keep that trait and give us something else please.

Orks lose 50% of their shooting to -1 hit modifiers (which are all over the place), while all other armies just lose 25% or 33%, so our shooting units need some sort of help with that.

 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, they can keep that trait and give us something else please.

Orks lose 50% of their shooting to -1 hit modifiers (which are all over the place), while all other armies just lose 25% or 33%, so our shooting units need some sort of help with that.

Yes, they lose 50% of shooting to -1 modifiers. But they lose 100% to -2 modifiers. Except in my suggestion, they'd still be shooting at 6+ so they'd only lose 50% still.

It would only be a stratagem though, not a trait, as there are only certain specific enemy units that can get as far as a -2 to hit penalty. And it might just as easily say "Choose an Ork unit, they can shoot at their normal BS regardless of modifiers."

Which would be good vs enemies with -1 or -2 to hit modifiers. But would also mean they could shoot after moving with weapons, or even shoot from a moving battlewagon without penalty.

Seems like a pretty good stratagem to me. And very much in the same vein as others that GW have done.

What about just copying the special rule from the Immortal Tesla Carbine:

Moar dakka stratagem. Each hit roll of a 6+ causes 3 hits instead of 1.

It seems like the orks are so bad at hitting anything, and/or don't have the AP, that you have to throw a lot of it downrange to make any kind of impact. If this is true, is there any point to having small squads of anything? Will 5 tankbustas make a dent? Will 5 lootas hit anything? Is it worth spending points on a few vehicle mounted weapons on the Battlewagon? I proxied a single Mek Gun KMK, and it was underwhelming in the damage it did, but I could see 3 of them being a threat.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
It seems like the orks are so bad at hitting anything, and/or don't have the AP, that you have to throw a lot of it downrange to make any kind of impact. If this is true, is there any point to having small squads of anything? Will 5 tankbustas make a dent? Will 5 lootas hit anything? Is it worth spending points on a few vehicle mounted weapons on the Battlewagon? I proxied a single Mek Gun KMK, and it was underwhelming in the damage it did, but I could see 3 of them being a threat.

5 tankbustas will hit twice, and wound once, so will damage 1 thing per turn. So They'll do 3 damage per turn to a vehicle. This is pretty much their best result.

pismakron wrote:
What about just copying the special rule from the Immortal Tesla Carbine:

Moar dakka stratagem. Each hit roll of a 6+ causes 3 hits instead of 1.

This idea would only work assuming that we got a racial rule that others were mentioning, which is ignoring negative modifiers to shooting. Otherwise the plethora of -1 to hit rules coming in will neuter this idea too easily.

As far as actual tactics go, so far I've heard that Kanz and Gorkanauts are decent for a Dred Mob style list. I haven't heard too much about Meka Dreads so far though. IMO, they are a very good alternative compared to taking deff dredz or if you want a more shooty element to your walker wall. Since they're BS4+ and they don't suffer the -1 penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, this means that their guns (of which the rattler kannon is the best IMO) can actually do something and their built in "not FNP" Ramshackle Monster gives them a way to survive nastier CC weapons unlike other walkers in our list. They're basically what the Morkanaut should have been. Personally, I go for the KFF if I'm running one, since it's larger size means it can cover more on one flank than a normal Big Mek would be able to do. If you're running more than one though, it's better to opt for the mega-charga to save costs.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Will 5 tankbustas make a dent? Will 5 lootas hit anything? Is it worth spending points on a few vehicle mounted weapons on the Battlewagon?

No, no and no. Ork shooting is poor. Our damage comes from melee, smite and shooting, ordered by decreasing importance. For shooting I favour shoota-boyz over anyting else, but warbikers and killa kans are also ok. Tankbustas are fine in a trukk or a squig.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

pismakron wrote:
What about just copying the special rule from the Immortal Tesla Carbine:

Moar dakka stratagem. Each hit roll of a 6+ causes 3 hits instead of 1.

This idea would only work assuming that we got a racial rule that others were mentioning, which is ignoring negative modifiers to shooting. Otherwise the plethora of -1 to hit rules coming in will neuter this idea too easily.

Not really. -2 to shooting is pretty rare and will cripple the dakka of much shootier factions than orks. And unlike tau or guard we will still have our main weapon: Excellent close combat.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

There might also be something like "orks don't aim they simply shoot." making them immune to modifiers.

The exact argument i emailedy (nicely) to gw a couple months ago. Perhaps others may try the same thing.

What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Tell them to make power klaws better cause they suck

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Tell them to make power klaws better cause they suck

Tell them yourself

Power fists got a price reduction. If power klaws become 16 points they may be useful once again.

Being already S10+ and Ap-3 I don't think power klaws will have other helps than a points decrease. The -1 to hit and the D3 damage are absolutely fair, the 25 points cost isn't.

PK ought to go down to ~15 pts. Now the killsaws are a mystery. Chainfists (that are identical to killsaws) haven't dropped in price iirc. Which is a shame. If the klaw is 14-16 pts and a killsaw is 29 there's no reason to take a killsaw. Especially with the possibility of facing d/2 opponents like Abaddon, Calgar and many more to come.

 Blackie wrote:
The -1 to hit and the D3 damage are absolutely fair, the 25 points cost isn't.

I disagree. In the past the Powerklaw was our replacement for anti-tank weapons. In order to fulfill that role, the klaw either needs to hit without a modifier OR do d6 damage. Both would turn any boss nob in Ghazghkull Thrakka, which would be obviously way over the top. Accordingly, the killsaw should also go to having no hit modifier, making it a lot more useful for meks, koptaz and mega nobz who have too few attacks to make a weapon with -1 to hit worthwhile.
There is no real difference between S8, S10 or S12 when fighting tough targets, that regard, all of them wound most vehicles on 3+. The only difference compared to a marine PF (which pretty much no one uses) is wounding T8 vehicles on 3's - and it's not like we steamroll those because our power fists have +2S.

Currently models with T6+ and 10 or more wounds have nothing to fear from boss nobz. Armies are not created equal, there is no reason to match points with an army that can get rerolling lascannons everywhere.

In the past vehicles could be instant killed by a single lucky shot. Thankfully this issue is gone, I like vehicles being more tough, even if it penalizes orks.

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

S10+ AP-3 Damage D6 would be too powerful IMHO. Maybe it could be the profile for the killsaw, and it should cost around 25-30 points.

I think orks basically need points reductions, spamming pks should be their aim to deal with armored stuff in close combat, not fielding a few characters that can wreck everything.

 Blackie wrote:

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

The difference is that this single PK was crippling and exploding vehicles left and right. Now you're lucky if it deals a couple wounds out of 10 or something.

A squad of bully boyz with a couple killsaws statistically one-shot an imperial knight even after retaliation damage. Now they do less than 10 wounds. Not even enough to start crippling it. And they cost much more.

A PK warboss was a killing machine that wrecked any regular vehicle on his own with 5 s10 ap2 attacks hitting on 3-s. Now he deals less than 3 wounds to a freaking rhino.

PK are not what they used to be. s10-12 ap-3 Dd3 in 8-th ed << s8-10 ap2 in 7-th ed

I understand but a single lucky pk that destroyed a vehicle was a mistake that needed to be fixed IMHO. And even if I loved the bullyboyz formation its bonuses needed to go as well.

Meganobz are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue but they just need to be cheaper since 54 points per model is quite silly. If they were 35-40 points each (with trukks and BW around 40-50 and 80-100) they would be good once again, there's no need to make them something that is capable to take down a knight in a single turn. That's power creep.

I don't want a warboss that is capable of eating a vehicle in a single turn as well.

I'd prefer to spam pks and other weapons than having a few characters or a single squad that wreck everything.

The mechanic that allowed a nob in a boyz squad to do the damage vs armored stuff was wrong, I certainly prefer a scenario in which 29 boyz cause 8-10 wounds to a T7 armor 3+ model and the nob with pk 1-2 rather than 0 wounds caused by the boyz and the istant death of the vehicle/walker caused by the nob.

The concept has changed. PK needed to be able to really cripple vehicles and tougher stuff because boyz could do nothing to av11. Now boyz are capable of dealing with anything if the numbers are sufficient enough. So, there is no longer a distinct difference between a pk nob and a bunch of boyz. They can do the same thing with not so various various effectiveness. A pk nob that costs 31 pts (6 pts nob + 25 pts pk) does 1.67 wounds to a rhino and kills 1.04 marines. 31 pts of choppa boyz do 1.16 wounds to a rhino and kill 1.72 marines.

 koooaei wrote:

A pk nob that costs 31 pts (6 pts nob + 25 pts pk) does 1.67 wounds to a rhino and kills 1.04 marines. 31 pts of choppa boyz do 1.16 wounds to a rhino and kill 1.72 marines.

And that's all fair IMHO but the cost of the pk which is clearly too high. One deadly model that causes the same damage of 7-8 smaller dudes he leads and not 20-30 is absolutely the concept I want.

A single pk that does all the job in a mob of boyz is a wrong concept IMHO. And a small unit of nobz/meganobz that can cause 30+ wounds because pks hit on 3s and cause D6 damage each is wrong as well. A squad of nobz/meganobz able to strip 8-12 wounds in close combat against a T8 model would be fair, just price the unit reasonably. "Bring more" should be the concept of orks, rather than relying on deathstars or superheores.

 Blackie wrote:
In the past vehicles could be instant killed by a single lucky shot. Thankfully this issue is gone, I like vehicles being more tough, even if it penalizes orks.

Vehicles are still more tough. On average you still need 3 "penetrating hits" to destroy a vehicle, just like melta or lascannons do.

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

This is all but irrelevant. A klaw's job is to be a close combat lascannon. It's not doing that job well, and actually it's not do any job well. Even with 5 attacks and hitting on 3's (Warpath is always inferior to smite against vehicles) you are looking at 2d3 for 300+ points worth of support. Now compare that to a predator, PBC, LRBT or any other anti-tank weapon not completely terrible.

S10+ AP-3 Damage D6 would be too powerful IMHO. Maybe it could be the profile for the killsaw, and it should cost around 25-30 points.

A lascannon on a 3+ model of your choice supported by chaos lords, daemon princes, captains, chapter masters or primarchs also costs 25 points.
It's not like nobz are guaranteed to reach combat, and without support they are pretty likely to just hit their target once or not at all. In my experience your average boss nobz gets to attack once or twice over the course of a game, with some of them being able to fight every turn starting turn 3 and others never getting to swing at all.
The difference between S8 and S10 is marginal, all it means being better at wounding T4, T5 and T8 models. It is does nothing at all against all other targets. You need to stop thinking in terms of 7th edition.

I think orks basically need points reductions, spamming pks should be their aim to deal with armored stuff in close combat, not fielding a few characters that can wreck everything.

Aren't you a little overexaggerating?
"Spamming PKs" means one per unit of boyz, so about three to four unless you are running a full tide - which we don't want anymore after our codex. Better PKs would also make trukk and BW boyz viable again, which is important because you cannot buff boyz any more without making them broken. MANz would be able to actually kill stuff again.
At d3 damage you can spam any amount of PKs you want. You will never have enough of them to kill a single knight, baneblade or daemon primarch.
The only character that can currently "Wreck everything" is Ghazkhull Thrakka, which would mean 6 S12 WS2+ 3 damage attacks. I'm proposing 3 S10 WS4+ 1d6 damage attacks.

There is no reason for our close combat weapons to be worse than options that space marines don't even bother to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
A single pk that does all the job in a mob of boyz is a wrong concept IMHO. And a small unit of nobz/meganobz that can cause 30+ wounds because pks hit on 3s and cause D6 damage each is wrong as well. A squad of nobz/meganobz able to strip 8-12 wounds in close combat against a T8 model would be fair, just price the unit reasonably. "Bring more" should be the concept of orks, rather than relying on deathstars or superheores.

You have a really weird and skewed view of the current game. Units much cheaper than mega nobz can blow up those same models through shooting, without even bothering to charge.

Also you keep making things much better than they are. 5 Megannobz with PKs get to roll about 5 damage dice against a T8 model, assuming it has no invulnerable save or FNP, which would require 5x to do 30+ wounds.
I also asked for the modifier to be removed OR d6 damage. I guess you just want to freak out at the very thought of some ork options not being strictly worse than what everyone else gets.

I want trukk boys to work, and I think the PK is probably the solution.

It needs to be scary enough to matter.

I also don't see why it shouldn't be better then a power fist. They have really good shooting.

Trukk boyz will work when we get 'eavy armor back.

Problem with trukkboyz is that trukks themselves would still be pretty trash. I’d like to see a major point reduction on them as well as a rework of their melee options as to make them more viable.

The issue is that a our massive amount of S4 attacks are very effective against anything not T8 or Sv 2+. Demon princes, Rhinos, Venerable Dreads, and Carnifexes are killed very well by our boyz with choppas or shootas. Whether our lone Nob has a Klaw, Big Choppa or inflatable cucumber makes little difference in the larger picture. That boyz gets a bonus in large groups also means that there are a lot fewer boss nobs around.

The question is if anyone would bother with boss Klaws even at 15 points. I don't think big choppas are an auto-include either.

And I don't think a 4+ save will make trukk-boyz viable either. Nobz have a 4+ save and works okay-ish in trukks or wagons. They are plenty durable, but they lack damage-output. Hard boyz would be worse in that respect. For boyz to be viable in transports the transport-tax must not be more than around 4 point per boy or so, which suggests a trukk for 45-50 point or a battlewagon for 80 point. And I think neither scenario is realistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Problem with trukkboyz is that trukks themselves would still be pretty trash. I’d like to see a major point reduction on them as well as a rework of their melee options as to make them more viable.

For trukk-boyz to be viable the trukk needs to be much more trash than it is now. If it was T5, W8, Sv4+, it could probably be priced at 40-45 including a big shoota. The trukk we have now works well when it transports Nobz, Burnas, Tankbustas and such. Just like Rhinos works well when transporting Space Marines/Bezerkers and similar.

Fist/Klaws just arent good any more since the change in stats and to vehicles. D3 damage is really bad, especially for a faction known for hard hitting CQC elites.

I think it would be wise to finally note a difference between klaws and fists. Make Klaws more expensive but with a more impactful statline. Maybe 3D on Klaws and D6D on Saws. Big choppas can go to AP -2 for the same price, and everything should have access to powerstabbas.

Orks need CC weapons akin to the thunder hammer statline not the power fist line.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Fist/Klaws just arent good any more since the change in stats and to vehicles. D3 damage is really bad, especially for a faction known for hard hitting CQC elites.

I think it would be wise to finally note a difference between klaws and fists. Make Klaws more expensive but with a more impactful statline. Maybe 3D on Klaws and D6D on Saws. Big choppas can go to AP -2 for the same price, and everything should have access to powerstabbas.

Orks need CC weapons akin to the thunder hammer statline not the power fist line.

I second this. It'd be a cool parallel for our CC weapons to have consistent damage similar to our rokkits. Also, I'd personally just rename power stabbas to be "kustom choppas" just to make it more open to interpretation modelling wise since I know that technically speaking it refers to that weird harpoon weapon in the Nob kit, which is way to limited in quantity and design to be used more than twice on a model in an army.

 Jidmah wrote:


You have a really weird and skewed view of the current game. Units much cheaper than mega nobz can blow up those same models through shooting, without even bothering to charge.

Also you keep making things much better than they are. 5 Megannobz with PKs get to roll about 5 damage dice against a T8 model, assuming it has no invulnerable save or FNP, which would require 5x to do 30+ wounds.
I also asked for the modifier to be removed OR d6 damage. I guess you just want to freak out at the very thought of some ork options not being strictly worse than what everyone else gets.

My ideal concept about orks is that all their units cost half the SM equivalent. Like boyz compared to tacticals. Meganobz shouldn't be a deathstar but you could throw 10-15 of them in a 2000 points lists without investing tons of points, they should be actually half the points of terminators. Make them 30 points each and the trukk 40, now they're worthy again, even if pk are not as deadly as they were in 7th edition. That's the way to spam pks: in boyz/stormboyz units, in nobz/meganobz units, maybe in a biker squad, 1-2 warbosses, walkers, etc.... And don't forget ranged weapons, pks shouldn't be the entire anti tank in the list, you should field artillery, lootas, rokkits. I'm ok with all the current weapons profiles (witht he exception of the KMK which should be AP-4 and/or damage D6) but not their costs, you should be able to take 30-40 rokkits instead of 20, more lootas, more artillery, twice the kans, more bikes, etc...

But with the current points cost the army is unbalanced. I'd like an horde army with not only boyz.

No auto takes, like super pks, but a whole codex of cheap units that can be taken in huge numbers, none of them particularly killy. That's how orks should work IMHO.

 Blackie wrote:

No auto takes, like super pks, but a whole codex of cheap units that can be taken in huge numbers, none of them particularly killy. That's how orks should work IMHO.

I thought that you didn't like playing with a lot of models) I'd much prefer to have numerous models and army, but not green tide level of army

 koooaei wrote:
Trukk boyz will work when we get 'eavy armor back.

I don't think that trukk boyz are not viable because of low survivability, it is rather because 11 boys and Nob is too little to accomplish something. What would change with the addition of (properly) priced heavy armor option for boys? (or just a new unit of `ard boys)? Well, I mean what their purpose would be?

Also as a question for actual topic, how to properly use :
1).Kommandoes? I keep deploying them like deepstriking boys, charge a small MSU, wipe it out or cripple only for it to fall back and my kommandoes get shot to death by the rest of opponent army. They are yet to make their points back
2).Burnas and skorcha trakks? I now those are not very viable/overpriced, but I do like models and idea of gits doing da burny dance.

Manz have always been ~ equal to termintors. They've been choppier, tougher vs small arms fire but lacked invul, their shooting was worse and they've pretty much always been slower. They didn't function too well in 5-th because power weapons ignored 2+ armor and a lot of things had power weapons. Even fists were not a rare sight. Besides, there was a whole top-tier army of grey knights that countered meganobz badly. 6-th saw them being used as manz missiles from time to time. They've become really strong in 7-th with bully boyz formation that fixed their main issue - LD.

I don't think that manz should be that cheap. We should have an option for a small elite army. They should just function better. Get easier access to 1 more attack - something identical to Kanz buff - like 3+ manz get +1 attack. This would also be the reason to take larger squads. At the same time they should become A BIT cheaper - go down to 40 pts with a klaw+shoota. But that's only because klaws are not worth 25 pts atm. And trukks should become cheaper as well - even 60 pts for a current trukk would be great. That's all we need for functional manz.

 JawRippa wrote:

I thought that you didn't like playing with a lot of models) I'd much prefer to have numerous models and army, but not green tide level of army

I don't like playing with a lot of footslogging models I'd like to have numerous models too, but not only boyz, in fact I prefer the opposite concept, toyz over boyz. Lots of toyz

 koooaei wrote:
Manz have always been ~ equal to termintors. They've been choppier, tougher vs small arms fire but lacked invul, their shooting was worse and they've pretty much always been slower. They didn't function too well in 5-th because power weapons ignored 2+ armor and a lot of things had power weapons. Even fists were not a rare sight. Besides, there was a whole top-tier army of grey knights that countered meganobz badly. 6-th saw them being used as manz missiles from time to time. They've become really strong in 7-th with bully boyz formation that fixed their main issue - LD.

I don't think that manz should be that cheap. We should have an option for a small elite army. They should just function better. Get easier access to 1 more attack - something identical to Kanz buff - like 3+ manz get +1 attack. This would also be the reason to take larger squads. At the same time they should become A BIT cheaper - go down to 40 pts with a klaw+shoota. But that's only because klaws are not worth 25 pts atm. And trukks should become cheaper as well - even 60 pts for a current trukk would be great. That's all we need for functional manz.

In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

fe40k wrote:


In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

I don't see why the invulnerable save would even matter? How often do you use a 5++ save on a 2+ save model? And Manz are 3 wounds if I am not mistaken. If the 5++ invulnerable save was a 5 point upgrade, I doubt that anyone would take it.

The real problem for manz is that they are too expensive. They need a cheaper Klaw and Saw because they bring a lot of them. It is the boss nobs who would benefit most from a high damage expensive Klaw, like the suggested D6 damage klaw.

Well if we go way back to 2nd ed, Mega Armour had an internal medi-squig pack that gave MANZ a 4+ FNP. This is most certainly something that could come back and would help out MANZ far more than an invul save. Even if 4+ is too much, a 5+ FNP would be a great increase in survivability.

pismakron wrote:

fe40k wrote:


In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

I don't see why the invulnerable save would even matter? How often do you use a 5++ save on a 2+ save model? And Manz are 3 wounds if I am not mistaken. If the 5++ invulnerable save was a 5 point upgrade, I doubt that anyone would take it.

The real problem for manz is that they are too expensive. They need a cheaper Klaw and Saw because they bring a lot of them. It is the boss nobs who would benefit most from a high damage expensive Klaw, like the suggested D6 damage klaw.

Part of it is cost, but I think that a rule for MA units that allowed them to ignore the -1 to hit penalties for "unwieldy weapons" or just giving them +1 to hit in close combat (since the only weapons they have are PK and Saws. If you took that away and slightly adjusted the weapon costs I think they would be decent for their cost. I think they work ok now in lists with lots of big targets.

If you did that and allowed a cybork upgrade, and allowed cybork to stack with pain boyz they would be more than fine.