They can start it but supposedly the chapter approved (out next month) book should have updates to most codecs that haven't been released yet. There is also some fw datasheets for orks that are due anytime now. Hopefully the chapterapproved book has some meaningful point changes and rules tweaks for orks.
thenewgozoku wrote: At the old making orks competitive post we used to have a nice colour coded summary on the first page with unit ranking and a small description. Can we do it here somehow?
I currently don't have the time, but if someone makes one that is not heavily biased and actually reflects the content of this thread, I will add it to the first page.
[
Why don't we start with HQ first.
Gaz is definitely gold. for me he always make things work
Warboss in MA bluish. good tank gives waaagh lame movement and don't hit hard enough
Warboss eavy armour blue. cheap version for waaagh and better with BC Warboss with bike red. More expensive warboss with eavy armour.
Weirdboy gold. Cheap support.
Badruk bluish. Good on paper but only 3 shots with 4 ballistic.
I'd rank Zhadsnark as the #1 HQ by a mile. He has the best threat range, shooting, CC ability, and survivability of any HQ by far. I think 8th is all about the auras, but his individual capability is so good as to be an exception.
The next tier down would be the Biker Boss and Weirdboy. Weirdboy is currently the best transport we have, both in terms of cost and delivery. Biker Boss can keep up with Stormboyz or is still fairly capable of going off on his own. Raw speed is its own form of durability right now.
Just below I would put Ghaz, just because he has to rely on a transport of some kind. Mork (or Gork) help anything he charges though.
I just kinda lump them all together after that. Foot boss is cheap, but will be going in some kind of transport which kinda negates that. KFF bike Mek is fine for ~100 points, but YOU CAN NOT BUILD A LIST AROUND A 5++ KEEPING YOUR ARMY ALIVE. It's nice to have but he is not your green savior.
MA Boss is too slow and too expensive even before adding the necessary delivery mechanism.
Zagstruk has performed beyond my (admittedly low expectations). Keeps Stormboyz around during T1-2 shooting, then goes off and does fairly well in CC. For the points I was pretty happy
I didnt have any issues getting Ghaz into combat by footslogging.
Adv + Charge makes them almost as fast as transports. Assuming you dont roll like ass that is.
I ran Zagstruk once, but i didnt have any stormboyz. Even then he was actually pretty lethal since he can dive high up gunlines outta nowhere and usually rip them a new one. My stormboyz are currently in a green sea (well...piss-yellow sea since i use Totally Awesome) so i couldnt use them lol
I have used Ghaz in my last 2 games. His shooting has never done jack. He always uppercuts someone to death. Warboss with just a BC (with or without bike) is pretty cheap for a good hard hit.
Big Mek with KFF won me the game I played today. I played against a knight list. The mission was the relic. My ork boyz squad hid behind the killa kans with Big Mek w/ KFF. The KFF saved the kans from getting blown up and he fixed one of them. Then the boys grabbed the relic and ran. He couldn't do enough damage with his shooting.
Weirdboy, I was skeptical, but he's cheap and effective. I have not tried the rest but orks don't have bad HQ. Just not ridiculous HQ like Girlyman and the like.
Gaz is definitely gold. for me he always make things work
Warboss in MA bluish. good tank gives waaagh lame movement and don't hit hard enough
Warboss eavy armour blue. cheap version for waaagh and better with BC Warboss with bike red. More expensive warboss with eavy armour.
Weirdboy gold. Cheap support.
Badruk bluish. Good on paper but only 3 shots with 4 ballistic.
These are the ones I have tried so far
The biker boss is quite better than a footslogging one, which is also good.
Warboss in MA and badrukk are red IMHO. Flash gitz are bad even with his re-rolls so I don't see his usefulness, he could have been nice, but still poor overall, with a re-roll of failed to hit rolls of ones for any orks units, not only flash gitz.
Big mek with KFF on foot is decent, the SAG one could be useful too but more a fun choice than a competitive one. The biker mek with KFF is very good.
Snikrot has nice stats but his kommandos need a buff in their save to be competitive. Zagstruck is certainly not an auto-include but solid.
And there we have the issue with trying to codify the new book.
I think people need to remember something very important.
Some people are plain lucky/unlucky. And with Orks, that counts for a LOT. (Seriously- I remember a story on the Tomb Kings forum about one of the members- he and his friend scientifically proved that he was about 40% more likely to fail dice rolls than the average person- high, low, in between... It's a thing.)
And Luck plays a lot into what units are more or less useful to an individual player.
If you're lucky, and find yourself rolling lots of 5's and 6's for shooting, then Ork shooting is phenomenal, since a lot of it is decently powerful, and we have a lot of shots. However, if you're not so lucky with the shooting, it stinks because we don't have the mitigations of a high BS or lots of re-rolls.
And so, in that case, sheer Numbers is more useful, as are Melee attacks and high speed units. Those features of the army allow us to better control, without random chance involved, the performance of our army.
Yesterday i played a game with a list (3000pts) build around the stompa.
3 KFF mek on bike
3 battlewagon with 9 boyz, 1 nob and 9 tankbustas each
2 deffkoptas
Gorkanaut
The stompa.
Everything performed heroic because of good throws, but I lost the game because how the stompa was unable to do anything. The naut and the tankbustas outclassed the stompa by alot.
During the game my opponent took control of the stompa canon with his necron hq 4 times, so the model saw alot of action but didn't hit a thing. Not on my turns, not on his turns. Only in cc he was owkey. But not enough attacks to wipe a complete necron squad in one turn so it was a huge dissapointment for me. On the list, put the stompa in dark red.
I hope they fix it a bit. Grott gunners and more shots less random(6+d6) would be great...
Wyrdboy: Cheap, very good psipowers, our only source for denying the witch and fun to play. Massive improvement of flexibility and on of the top 4 HQ`s.
KFF Mek: Safed my ass all day long, repaired a lot of stuff and was always more than worth his points. Even better on bike, too bad he can`t take a grot companion though. Another of the top 4 HQ`s.
Regular Big Mek: No bike, KFF or SAG? Go for a regular Mek or two with grot oiler to save the points if you wanna repair stuff. Still our cheapest HQ but not by much so you will probably pay some extra points to get other ones.
Ghazghull: Have only used the regular Warbosses for my Bad Moons but he clearly is a beast. His support is amazing but he costs 2-3x the points of a regular WB.
Warboss: Went from CC monster to supporter, which he does excellent. All three options have their pros and cons. Regular one for under 70 points? Nice. Mega armour is slow as hell but has the highest durability & best style. Twice the points is hard since his buff is the same. Bika Warboss gets easy where you need it and goes for under 100 points with medium durability. Gets easier killed while biking ahead. Another top 4 HQ because i play shooty and just need a cheap Waaaagh for conter attacks. In green tides of course Ghaz may take (t)his place.
Big Mek with SAG: The shock attack really took a hit in 8th edition, with 2D6 shots it would have been fine though. Really sad they took all the fun factor out of it - made a hilarious always hitting all-or-nothing HQ to a poor random shooter. Played well in my shooty lists as almost impossible to kill warlord plus gets to shoot 5-7 times unharmed at least. With 100 points and 60" he performs ok for me, don`t see him doing well in other builds.
Kaptin Badrukk: Not too expensive, nice buff if you play a lot of Flash Gitz and his grot twin linked shooting is ok. What really bugs me is that he can`t affect Flash Gits he is embarked with in a battle waggon. (Where i put them most of the time.) But hey, he has 3+/5++!
Mad Dok Grotsnik: Don`t really see him doing better than a regular Dok except you really want him in CC. + Clan rules. (Warbanner, Waaagh,etc.)
Boss Zagstruk: Amazing profile and a true bargain. Not fielded him yet but looks like he is performing well out there. Belongs definitely in top 4. Stormboys being that good atm makes him even better.
Boss Snikrot: Even cheaper and does his job. Love the model and his background but have yet to field him in 8th edition.
Zhadsnark da Rippa: Far better Warboss on bike for evil sunz with superior Claw and only 11 points more? To bad i don`t have evil Sunz.
Ork Mek Boss Guzgob: Slightly better but more expensive Goff Mek with no options and his Mek arms look fun. Don`t have him but might just get him to play his awesome model as regular Big Mek.
Personal list playing Bad Moons only as shooty orks:
KFF Mek
Wyrdboy
SAG Big Mek
Badrukk
Warboss
Warboss in Mega Armour
Warboss on Bike
Regular Big Mek
All other unique Clan HQ`s
List by utility:
Wyrdboy
Ghazghull / regular Warboss
KFF Big Mek (on Bike)
Zagstruk
Snikrot / Zhadsnark
Warboss on Bike
Warboss in MA SAG Big Mek
Badrukk
Grotznik
Mek Boss Guzgob
Regular Mek
Edit: GW better brings back Zogwort! Need just one more reason to rebuild a WHFB40k Snakebites army.
thenewgozoku wrote: At the old making orks competitive post we used to have a nice colour coded summary on the first page with unit ranking and a small description. Can we do it here somehow?
I currently don't have the time, but if someone makes one that is not heavily biased and actually reflects the content of this thread, I will add it to the first page.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oOSkyOo wrote: The first Ork list on BAO was on rank 11 overall. It had a loot of shooty units: 2x Mek Guns, Flash Gitz, 2x Tank Busta.
Spoiler:
Orks: Vanguard Detachment - 463 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Big Mek on Warbike
+ Kustom force field, Choppa -> 20 Pkt.
- - - > 101 Punkte
Gargantuan Squiggoth, 2x Twin Big Shoota, 2x Big Zappa
--- >414
What an odd list. I'd really love to hear the reasoning for choices like solo Snikort or character mek. Flash gits in a gargantuan squiggoth actually makes kind of sense.
Snikrot is our best objective camping unit. In cover he is equivalent to 6 marines against damage 1 weapons. He cannot be targeted unless by snipers or if he is closest. He is great if you get first turn in relic.
HQ:
Ghaz= (The Larger the Game the Better He is) Still overpriced for the buffage
Warboss MA (Its the Price point)
Warboss PK Warboss BC Does need a Ride
Warboss Biker BC Warboss Biker PK ZhardSnark
Big Mek MAKFF Big Mek KFF to protect Gunz or Lootas
Big Mek SAG Big Mek Bike KFF Big Mek on Bike SAG Wierdboy Da Jump
Wierdboy Warpath
Wierdboy Eadbanger
Snikrot Situational
ZagStruck Ok on his own Must take with multiple groups of stormboyz
Badrukk If taking Flashgitz he becomes green
BuzzGob His rules are an issue
Troops
Choppa Boyz Gotta Ave em with a Nob +BC Shoota Boyz Usefull and have a function
Gretchin Situational
Elite
Burna
Kommandoes
Tank Bustas -Needs a vehicle
Nobz - Works with Da Jump or a Vehicle (Mixed non shooting load out primarrily BC + Killsaw)
MegaNobz Normal
Meganobz Killsaw
Biker Nobz
Bannawavva Ride him with da Nobz Sub 1500 lists not worth the points
Painboy - Needed with weirdboy jumping crew
Painboy on bike
Mad Dok Grotznik Situational
Runtherd if taking several large groups of grotz need one
Mek situational good to put with KMK's
Heavy
Gorkanaught
Morkanaught-KFF Situational
Meka Dread-KFF Situational cheaper than mork
DeffDread
Killa Kan
Big GunZ-Kannon Lobba ZappGun
Mek Gunz-KMB Traktor Bubble Chukka Smasha
BW+Supa Kannon
BW + DR
Lifta Wagon
BigTrakk-no big gun- more survivable than trukk kinda pricey
Big Trakk + SuperSkorcha Will get its points back and then some Best spot for Tankbustas or small group of nobz
Big Trakk + other Big Gun
Big Trakk + Super Kannon
Squiggoth
Lootas
Flashgitz
Fliers
DakkaJet loaded
Blitza Bomber
Burna Bomber
WazBom BlastaJet (if running multiple Jets take one with KFF + 2 SS for extra protection)
LoW Stompa Never get its points back
Kustum Stompa Even Worse
Gargantuan Squiggoth
Killtank great place for some BC Warbosses Killsaw Nobz and a Bannawavva (none shooty groups)
Stormboyz x 19 Nob Stormboyz x 19 Nob DeffKoptas x 2 Bomms Big Shootas
VANGUARD DETACHMENT:
HQS:
Weirdboy, Warpath
ELITES:
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
LOL So this is just a gimmick list for fun that I want to try. Basically the point is to place your grots holding objectives, put your stormboyz on the weakest flank supported by the Big Mek and have the boyz positioned nearby the "Da Jump" Weirdboy so he can jump them close to the enemies lines on turn 1 and turn 2. After all of that is placed, at the end of your 1st movement phase you have 6 units of 15 Kommandos totaling 90 Kommandos appear 9inches from their lines and 2 Deff Koptas. With Da Jump you will have 120 Boyz within 9inches of your opponent turn 1. So with 8 units you should get at least 4-5 into CC on your turn which will tie up his lines at the least for turn 1-2 and by then your stormboyz and 2nd mob of boyz will appear and really pile on the pain
Stormboyz x 19 Nob
Stormboyz x 19 Nob
DeffKoptas x 2 Bomms Big Shootas
VANGUARD DETACHMENT:
HQS:
Weirdboy, Warpath
ELITES:
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 14 Nob an 2 Burnas
LOL So this is just a gimmick list for fun that I want to try. Basically the point is to place your grots holding objectives, put your stormboyz on the weakest flank supported by the Big Mek and have the boyz positioned nearby the "Da Jump" Weirdboy so he can jump them close to the enemies lines on turn 1 and turn 2. After all of that is placed, at the end of your 1st movement phase you have 6 units of 15 Kommandos totaling 90 Kommandos appear 9inches from their lines and 2 Deff Koptas. With Da Jump you will have 120 Boyz within 9inches of your opponent turn 1. So with 8 units you should get at least 4-5 into CC on your turn which will tie up his lines at the least for turn 1-2 and by then your stormboyz and 2nd mob of boyz will appear and really pile on the pain
So what do you guys think?
Well... I mean, it's just a variation on the theme of "horde of boyz is orks only viable choice right now". It unfortunately doesn't do much to stop the current problem with orks.
HOWEVER it -is- a variation, and to me it looks like a fun one. I'd much prefer your idea of loads of kommando orks popping out of the bushes, than running a footslogging horde (or spending a fortune in points on useless trukks).
I'd give it a , and in fact makes me want to sort myself out a kommando squad.
Boyz One of the best units in the game. The math favours sluggas, but shootas works surprisingly well and gives you some flexibility. If you are struggling with orks, bring more boyz.
Ghazkgull An absolute killing machine and surprisingly durable. Works well in mechanized lists as well as with foot infantry.
Warboss The buffs provided by a warboss are crucial for boy blobs, and his damage output is quite decent. The Big Choppa is a good option for a Warboss, as is a Warbike, but leave the Mega Armor at home.
Weirdboy An auto-include. The weirdboy can reliable deny Magnus, is a smite machine, and has access to two good powers in Warpath and Da Jump.
Big Mek An important part of most ork lists, but not an auto-include. Always give him a KFF. A Warbike is also a good option as the KFF is very dependent on positioning. Don't waste points on klaws, saws, blastas or the stupid shokk attack gun.
Painboy The 6+ save is pretty weak, but his abillity to heal characters is very useful. Healing weirdboyz and Ghaz will earn his points back, and with four attacks he has better damage output than a Big Mek.
Grotsnik A better painboy that only costs 9 more points. He is pretty tough with dual FNP saves.
Tankbustas Very decent damage output, but they are way too squishy to use on foot. Works well in mechanized lists. When playing with Powerlevels these are extremely undercosted, and you can field a horde of only tankbustas.
Nobz They sort of work like more concentrated boyz, but somewhat less efficiently. They are probably an important part of most mechanized lists. Ammo runts are worth it for the ablative wounds.
Stormboyz Good for bracketing vehicles so they cannot fall back. Also, you don't lose out on the Greentide bonus by taking lots of min-sized squads. When playing with powerlevels Stormboyz are an absolute steal.
Banner Nob Provides a nice buff for all Ork lists, but he is pretty expensive. He is good with walkers, and practically mandatory for Kans.
Kommandos Good for grabbing objectives. Can also make first turn charges. They have a very usefull cover bonus, but they are kitted out for close combat, which is difficult to reconcile. Would be better if they could take shootas.
Battlewagon Good with hard-top and a deff-rolla. You can add som big-shootqas if you like, but the killkannon is way over-priced. A bit situational, but the deffrolla will absolutely murder culexus assassins.
Trukk Suprisingly durable and our go-to transport for anything shooty (tankbustas)
Gorkanaut Very tough and a beast in close-combat. The shooting is kind of meh, especially when you are advancing or fighting in close combat.
Zaggstruk Extremely good if you take multiple full-sized squads of stormboyz. Otherwise leave him at home.
Lootas Good damage output, but very squishy and needs to remain stationary. An auto-include if you take a fortification, which you probably never will.
Deff dread Very good damage output, but the dread is very squishy and badly needs KFF protection. Too slow to reliably charge on turn two. They are useless for shooting.
Morkanaut Like the Gorkanaut but with less damage output and a gun that fries itself.
Killa Kan Reasonably durable and shooty, but needs lots of baby sitting: A Banner Nob to make them usefull in close combat and a Bik Mek with a KFF to make them survive. They also need a warboss or command-points to help with morale. Oh, and they don't benefit from 'Ere We Go.
Kannon + KMK The artillery pieces are squishy and has a mediocre damage output. The Kannon and KMK are almost average. The rest are worse.
Dakkajet It can do plenty of damage, but it is easy to kill and quite dear. Hope for first turn.
Deffkopta The bomb is good, and the ability to assault things that are behind a screen can be game-winning. On the downside they are expensive and squishy and do too little.
Burnas Too expensive, and with the weakest flamer in the game.
Gretchin The worst statline in the game yet as expensive as a conscript.
Runtherd Useless because grots are useless. Only take him to fill a slot.
Mini mek He has a cool model, but he really has no purpose. Waste of points.
Flash Gitz Very expensive and very squishy. They badly need a transport but they also need to remain stationary.
Stompa It is a gorkanaut boosted by 50% but with the cost boosted by +200%. Would be worth it with a base cost of around 550 points.
pismakron wrote: Boyz One of the best units in the game. The math favours sluggas, but shootas works surprisingly well and gives you some flexibility. If you are struggling with orks, bring more boyz.
Ghazkgull An absolute killing machine and surprisingly durable. Works well in mechanized lists as well as with foot infantry.
Warboss The buffs provided by a warboss are crucial for boy blobs, and his damage output is quite decent. The Big Choppa is a good option for a Warboss, as is a Warbike, but leave the Mega Armor at home.
Weirdboy An auto-include. The weirdboy can reliable deny Magnus, is a smite machine, and has access to two good powers in Warpath and Da Jump.
Big Mek An important part of most ork lists, but not an auto-include. Always give him a KFF. A Warbike is also a good option as the KFF is very dependent on positioning. Don't waste points on klaws, saws, blastas or the stupid shokk attack gun.
Painboy The 6+ save is pretty weak, but his abillity to heal characters is very useful. Healing weirdboyz and Ghaz will earn his points back, and with four attacks he has better damage output than a Big Mek.
Grotsnik A better painboy that only costs 9 more points. He is pretty tough with dual FNP saves.
Tankbustas Very decent damage output, but they are way too squishy to use on foot. Works well in mechanized lists. When playing with Powerlevels these are extremely undercosted, and you can field a horde of only tankbustas.
Nobz They sort of work like more concentrated boyz, but somewhat less efficiently. They are probably an important part of most mechanized lists. Ammo runts are worth it for the ablative wounds.
Stormboyz Good for bracketing vehicles so they cannot fall back. Also, you don't lose out on the Greentide bonus by taking lots of min-sized squads. When playing with powerlevels Stormboyz are an absolute steal.
Banner Nob Provides a nice buff for all Ork lists, but he is pretty expensive. He is good with walkers, and practically mandatory for Kans.
Kommandos Good for grabbing objectives. Can also make first turn charges. They have a very usefull cover bonus, but they are kitted out for close combat, which is difficult to reconcile. Would be better if they could take shootas.
Battlewagon Good with hard-top and a deff-rolla. You can add som big-shootqas if you like, but the killkannon is way over-priced. A bit situational, but the deffrolla will absolutely murder culexus assassins.
Trukk Suprisingly durable and our go-to transport for anything shooty (tankbustas)
Gorkanaut Very tough and a beast in close-combat. The shooting is kind of meh, especially when you are advancing or fighting in close combat.
Zaggstruk Extremely good if you take multiple full-sized squads of stormboyz. Otherwise leave him at home.
Lootas Good damage output, but very squishy and needs to remain stationary. An auto-include if you take a fortification, which you probably never will.
Deff dread Very good damage output, but the dread is very squishy and badly needs KFF protection. Too slow to reliably charge on turn two. They are useless for shooting.
Morkanaut Like the Gorkanaut but with less damage output and a gun that fries itself.
Killa Kan Reasonably durable and shooty, but needs lots of baby sitting: A Banner Nob to make them usefull in close combat and a Bik Mek with a KFF to make them survive. They also need a warboss or command-points to help with morale. Oh, and they don't benefit from 'Ere We Go.
Kannon + KMK The artillery pieces are squishy and has a mediocre damage output. The Kannon and KMK are almost average. The rest are worse.
Dakkajet It can do plenty of damage, but it is easy to kill and quite dear. Hope for first turn.
Deffkopta The bomb is good, and the ability to assault things that are behind a screen can be game-winning. On the downside they are expensive and squishy and do too little.
Burnas Too expensive, and with the weakest flamer in the game.
Gretchin The worst statline in the game yet as expensive as a conscript.
Runtherd Useless because grots are useless. Only take him to fill a slot.
Mini mek He has a cool model, but he really has no purpose. Waste of points.
Flash Gitz Very expensive and very squishy. They badly need a transport but they also need to remain stationary.
Stompa It is a gorkanaut boosted by 50% but with the cost boosted by +200%. Would be worth it with a base cost of around 550 points.
pismakron wrote: Boyz One of the best units in the game. The math favours sluggas, but shootas works surprisingly well and gives you some flexibility. If you are struggling with orks, bring more boyz.
Ghazkgull An absolute killing machine and surprisingly durable. Works well in mechanized lists as well as with foot infantry.
Warboss The buffs provided by a warboss are crucial for boy blobs, and his damage output is quite decent. The Big Choppa is a good option for a Warboss, as is a Warbike, but leave the Mega Armor at home.
Weirdboy An auto-include. The weirdboy can reliable deny Magnus, is a smite machine, and has access to two good powers in Warpath and Da Jump.
Big Mek An important part of most ork lists, but not an auto-include. Always give him a KFF. A Warbike is also a good option as the KFF is very dependent on positioning. Don't waste points on klaws, saws, blastas or the stupid shokk attack gun.
Painboy The 6+ save is pretty weak, but his abillity to heal characters is very useful. Healing weirdboyz and Ghaz will earn his points back, and with four attacks he has better damage output than a Big Mek.
Grotsnik A better painboy that only costs 9 more points. He is pretty tough with dual FNP saves.
Tankbustas Very decent damage output, but they are way too squishy to use on foot. Works well in mechanized lists. When playing with Powerlevels these are extremely undercosted, and you can field a horde of only tankbustas.
Nobz They sort of work like more concentrated boyz, but somewhat less efficiently. They are probably an important part of most mechanized lists. Ammo runts are worth it for the ablative wounds.
Stormboyz Good for bracketing vehicles so they cannot fall back. Also, you don't lose out on the Greentide bonus by taking lots of min-sized squads. When playing with powerlevels Stormboyz are an absolute steal.
Banner Nob Provides a nice buff for all Ork lists, but he is pretty expensive. He is good with walkers, and practically mandatory for Kans.
Kommandos Good for grabbing objectives. Can also make first turn charges. They have a very usefull cover bonus, but they are kitted out for close combat, which is difficult to reconcile. Would be better if they could take shootas.
Battlewagon Good with hard-top and a deff-rolla. You can add som big-shootqas if you like, but the killkannon is way over-priced. A bit situational, but the deffrolla will absolutely murder culexus assassins.
Trukk Suprisingly durable and our go-to transport for anything shooty (tankbustas)
Gorkanaut Very tough and a beast in close-combat. The shooting is kind of meh, especially when you are advancing or fighting in close combat.
Zaggstruk Extremely good if you take multiple full-sized squads of stormboyz. Otherwise leave him at home.
Lootas Good damage output, but very squishy and needs to remain stationary. An auto-include if you take a fortification, which you probably never will.
Deff dread Very good damage output, but the dread is very squishy and badly needs KFF protection. Too slow to reliably charge on turn two. They are useless for shooting.
Morkanaut Like the Gorkanaut but with less damage output and a gun that fries itself.
Killa Kan Reasonably durable and shooty, but needs lots of baby sitting: A Banner Nob to make them usefull in close combat and a Bik Mek with a KFF to make them survive. They also need a warboss or command-points to help with morale. Oh, and they don't benefit from 'Ere We Go.
Kannon + KMK The artillery pieces are squishy and has a mediocre damage output. The Kannon and KMK are almost average. The rest are worse.
Dakkajet It can do plenty of damage, but it is easy to kill and quite dear. Hope for first turn.
Deffkopta The bomb is good, and the ability to assault things that are behind a screen can be game-winning. On the downside they are expensive and squishy and do too little.
Burnas Too expensive, and with the weakest flamer in the game.
Gretchin The worst statline in the game yet as expensive as a conscript.
Runtherd Useless because grots are useless. Only take him to fill a slot.
Mini mek He has a cool model, but he really has no purpose. Waste of points.
Flash Gitz Very expensive and very squishy. They badly need a transport but they also need to remain stationary.
Stompa It is a gorkanaut boosted by 50% but with the cost boosted by +200%. Would be worth it with a base cost of around 550 points.
You missed Meganobz... probably on purpose LULZ
To add to your list...
Blitza-Bommer Pretty much our only source of reliable mortal wounds. It's fast enough that you'll get some off on turn 1, perfect for squads of elites that need some thinning. Just don't expect it to live for long.
Meganobz Horrible damage output, average one marine killed per nob, horrible cost, and horrible survivability due to still not having a built in invuln save. Their speed mandates they take a transport, only adding to their high cost.
Though I disagree with you on grots. The best thing grots can be used for is deepstrike denial. Take three squads for 90 points to fill in any gaps in your deployment zone to stop deepstriking. Not to mention, if you're bringing a lot of HQs, you can bring 3 squads of gretchin to split up your force org into two battalion detachments to get +6 cp.
God I seriously hope they know how bad the ork index is on a competitive level. Good thing about having to wait is that they potentially get more time to realize how garbage 80 percent of it is.
Dr.Duck wrote: God I seriously hope they know how bad the ork index is on a competitive level. Good thing about having to wait is that they potentially get more time to realize how garbage 80 percent of it is.
Its gonna suck if they already have it written.
Honestly the green tide formation has decent success. Problem is it's pretty much the only way to play orks right now, even in a casual setting.
Dr.Duck wrote: God I seriously hope they know how bad the ork index is on a competitive level. Good thing about having to wait is that they potentially get more time to realize how garbage 80 percent of it is.
Its gonna suck if they already have it written.
Honestly the green tide formation has decent success. Problem is it's pretty much the only way to play orks right now, even in a casual setting.
I just want my battlewagon/trukk rush back.
Cool so we got 1 "decent" list thats hardly flexible and and involves 3 of the most basic units in faction. The boss the boy and the psyker.
Honestly I think all transports are wildly overcosted so hopefully we will see some rhinos and trukk/wagon points cost reductions. Just about Everything in the ork dex is points inefficent and or lacking. Usually you can rate a unit by damage output/ survivability/ mobility(ability to inflict damage on units despite LOS/evasion/grabbing points etc). Many units have 2 out of three of these things and do them well for the points. Few have all 3. Almost everything in the ork dex struggels to achieve 2 and commonly has 1.
Pretty sure the ork dex was slapped together to get the product out and not how they think orks should function as a faction (which is pretty much nonfunctioning). I hope...
Eh in a casual setting as long as i dont face that one donkey-cave that fields a girlyman gunline in a CASUAL setting i can get qutie a few things to work wonderfully. Its the girlyman lascannon/autocannon spam that shreds everyting except boyz
Which dont get me wrong im glad boyz are terrifying in numbers again. But running pure boyz is stale, not really any better than a solid gunline (even the girlyman lists still have a plane or something that moves 10-12").
Actually the whole walker thing is amusing. If you dont have a ton of anti-armor they tend to feel immortal, but if you have a ton of anti-armor and the KFF doesnt save your skin they fold quick. First time i faced the girlyman list he literally took out 3 dreads and 4 of my 6 kanz in 1 round...
Speaking of walkers, can somebody explain to me how the "ramshackle monstrosity" rule for meka dreads works?
Like if I'm hit with a squad of devastators with lascannons, do I roll my d6 dice one at a time after they've rolled their d6 wounds and "degrade" the RM save after every failure? Or does one successful RM save negate all d6 unsaved wounds? Or does the save "degrade" only after the shooting from that unit has been entirely resolved?
If it's the first option, the rule feels useless, but if it's something else it could be quite good.
In casual and semicompetitive metas a list built around trukks and BWs is still decent as long as you don't face lists with fewer drops than you and tons of anti tank.
For example drukhari with many lances are common but they must have 10ish drops since their units are cheap, AM with artillery and deep striking scions won't go first either, and if you rush your vehicles for a turn without suffering any damage this kind of list can even perform.
But even greentides can be crippled against lists that fear hordes and bring lots of anti infantry weapons.
After my tournament this weekend I'm of the opinion that orks are very match-up dependent even with our best lists. I ran a mixed list with Boyz, commandos, 2 Gorkanauts, and a Battlewagon.
Game 1 I faced some forgeworld tank (Cerberus or something) in a chaos army with magnus, and got stomped because that 1 tank killed all my vehicles in 2 turns, and my 80 boyz were not enough to carry the game against rubric marines and magnus. This game would have been an easy win with horde orks, as he would not have had the fire power to put down 180+ orks.
Game 2 I faced ynnari, and won in a landslide as I was able to get to combat with most of my stuff and trap him in his deployment zone. Horde orks would have done fine in this match as well, though it would have taken a while to get into the fight, and likely would have only played 3 turns.
Game 3 was a close loss, against Chaos (pox walker spam with malefic lords and exalted flamers and magnus). Pox walkers are a hard counter to ork horde list, they win an attrition war especially when backed with a ton of smite. If not for my gorkanauts this game would not have been close as I needed their shooting and CC ability to take down the pox walkers. Also getting them to explode on your opponent helps a lot when they are in range of multiple character models.
So even out "best" list has some hard counters that might appear. If the meta is anti-horde then that list is not viable. It is very good if people are running things like lascannon spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainCarrots wrote: Speaking of walkers, can somebody explain to me how the "ramshackle monstrosity" rule for meka dreads works?
Like if I'm hit with a squad of devastators with lascannons, do I roll my d6 dice one at a time after they've rolled their d6 wounds and "degrade" the RM save after every failure? Or does one successful RM save negate all d6 unsaved wounds? Or does the save "degrade" only after the shooting from that unit has been entirely resolved?
If it's the first option, the rule feels useless, but if it's something else it could be quite good.
My impression was that you would roll them 1 at a time. It is really a pretty bad rule.
pismakron wrote: I thought poxwalkers were pretty lame without Typhus, no?
Yeah, but if they have multiple buffs they win an attrition war with orks pretty easily. I was facing a list with Typhus, Fabius bile, Magnus, and some other Death Guard character.
So they were all S/T 4, hitting on 3s or 4s. One squad was at -1 to hit, they were re-rolling 1s from typhus. The big issue is that for every ork they kill they spawn another model. So you wipe out their initial screen then get counter charged, and they get 30+ new pox walkers. SO you grind each other down, but they win because of the extra durability and spawning.
pismakron wrote: I thought poxwalkers were pretty lame without Typhus, no?
Yeah, but if they have multiple buffs they win an attrition war with orks pretty easily. I was facing a list with Typhus, Fabius bile, Magnus, and some other Death Guard character.
So they were all S/T 4, hitting on 3s or 4s. One squad was at -1 to hit, they were re-rolling 1s from typhus. The big issue is that for every ork they kill they spawn another model. So you wipe out their initial screen then get counter charged, and they get 30+ new pox walkers. SO you grind each other down, but they win because of the extra durability and spawning.
I think it is necrosius that grants the reroll of 1. And I think the best way of dealing with poxwalker spam when running a green tide list is to simply bring more shootas, and advance over a wide front, so the buffs only spread to part of his army. Typhus is more than 160 points, so he is not exactly cheap.
pismakron wrote: I thought poxwalkers were pretty lame without Typhus, no?
Yeah, but if they have multiple buffs they win an attrition war with orks pretty easily. I was facing a list with Typhus, Fabius bile, Magnus, and some other Death Guard character.
So they were all S/T 4, hitting on 3s or 4s. One squad was at -1 to hit, they were re-rolling 1s from typhus. The big issue is that for every ork they kill they spawn another model. So you wipe out their initial screen then get counter charged, and they get 30+ new pox walkers. SO you grind each other down, but they win because of the extra durability and spawning.
I think it is necrosius that grants the reroll of 1. And I think the best way of dealing with poxwalker spam when running a green tide list is to simply bring more shootas, and advance over a wide front, so the buffs only spread to part of his army. Typhus is more than 160 points, so he is not exactly cheap.
Right but that is not the current wisdom on horde orks. What I am seeing is Choppa boyz + storm boyz for the most part, which don't really have shootin as an option.
As for a wide front, if you need to assault to do damage, that doesn't work too well, because with large pox walker squads it is too easy for him to get them all in the 7" bubble to get his buffs.
CaptainCarrots wrote: Speaking of walkers, can somebody explain to me how the "ramshackle monstrosity" rule for meka dreads works?
Like if I'm hit with a squad of devastators with lascannons, do I roll my d6 dice one at a time after they've rolled their d6 wounds and "degrade" the RM save after every failure? Or does one successful RM save negate all d6 unsaved wounds? Or does the save "degrade" only after the shooting from that unit has been entirely resolved?
If it's the first option, the rule feels useless, but if it's something else it could be quite good.
The order is woundallocation -> safes -> wounds loss depending on damage -> rolling for RM one dice at a time
So lets say they get 3 wounds on your Meka dread.
Now you would get to roll your saves, lets asume you make one, that means you still get 2 wounds.
Then the player controlling the devastors rolls for damage, lets say 3 & 4 which adds to loosing 7 wounds.
Now you may roll for RM, one by one.
You feel lucky and roll 5,5,4 and then a 2. -> 3 wounds prevented, 1 suffered and RM degrades to 5+.
Then you roll 5 and 2, 1 more wound safed & 1 suffered, RM degrades to 6+.
7th dice shows a 6, wound prevented and RM still active.
So after my games this weekend a very orky stratagem I would like to see in our codex is a stratagem that allows you to explode your own vehicles when they die. It would be powerful and very in theme.
pismakron wrote: Boyz One of the best units in the game. The math favours sluggas, but shootas works surprisingly well and gives you some flexibility. If you are struggling with orks, bring more boyz.
Ghazkgull An absolute killing machine and surprisingly durable. Works well in mechanized lists as well as with foot infantry.
Warboss The buffs provided by a warboss are crucial for boy blobs, and his damage output is quite decent. The Big Choppa is a good option for a Warboss, as is a Warbike, but leave the Mega Armor at home.
Weirdboy An auto-include. The weirdboy can reliable deny Magnus, is a smite machine, and has access to two good powers in Warpath and Da Jump.
Big Mek An important part of most ork lists, but not an auto-include. Always give him a KFF. A Warbike is also a good option as the KFF is very dependent on positioning. Don't waste points on klaws, saws, blastas or the stupid shokk attack gun.
Painboy The 6+ save is pretty weak, but his abillity to heal characters is very useful. Healing weirdboyz and Ghaz will earn his points back, and with four attacks he has better damage output than a Big Mek.
Grotsnik A better painboy that only costs 9 more points. He is pretty tough with dual FNP saves.
Tankbustas Very decent damage output, but they are way too squishy to use on foot. Works well in mechanized lists. When playing with Powerlevels these are extremely undercosted, and you can field a horde of only tankbustas.
Nobz They sort of work like more concentrated boyz, but somewhat less efficiently. They are probably an important part of most mechanized lists. Ammo runts are worth it for the ablative wounds.
Stormboyz Good for bracketing vehicles so they cannot fall back. Also, you don't lose out on the Greentide bonus by taking lots of min-sized squads. When playing with powerlevels Stormboyz are an absolute steal.
Banner Nob Provides a nice buff for all Ork lists, but he is pretty expensive. He is good with walkers, and practically mandatory for Kans.
Kommandos Good for grabbing objectives. Can also make first turn charges. They have a very usefull cover bonus, but they are kitted out for close combat, which is difficult to reconcile. Would be better if they could take shootas.
Battlewagon Good with hard-top and a deff-rolla. You can add som big-shootqas if you like, but the killkannon is way over-priced. A bit situational, but the deffrolla will absolutely murder culexus assassins.
Trukk Suprisingly durable and our go-to transport for anything shooty (tankbustas)
Gorkanaut Very tough and a beast in close-combat. The shooting is kind of meh, especially when you are advancing or fighting in close combat.
Zaggstruk Extremely good if you take multiple full-sized squads of stormboyz. Otherwise leave him at home.
Lootas Good damage output, but very squishy and needs to remain stationary. An auto-include if you take a fortification, which you probably never will.
Deff dread Very good damage output, but the dread is very squishy and badly needs KFF protection. Too slow to reliably charge on turn two. They are useless for shooting.
Morkanaut Like the Gorkanaut but with less damage output and a gun that fries itself.
Killa Kan Reasonably durable and shooty, but needs lots of baby sitting: A Banner Nob to make them usefull in close combat and a Bik Mek with a KFF to make them survive. They also need a warboss or command-points to help with morale. Oh, and they don't benefit from 'Ere We Go.
Kannon + KMK The artillery pieces are squishy and has a mediocre damage output. The Kannon and KMK are almost average. The rest are worse.
Dakkajet It can do plenty of damage, but it is easy to kill and quite dear. Hope for first turn.
Deffkopta The bomb is good, and the ability to assault things that are behind a screen can be game-winning. On the downside they are expensive and squishy and do too little.
Burnas Too expensive, and with the weakest flamer in the game.
Gretchin The worst statline in the game yet as expensive as a conscript.
Runtherd Useless because grots are useless. Only take him to fill a slot.
Mini mek He has a cool model, but he really has no purpose. Waste of points.
Flash Gitz Very expensive and very squishy. They badly need a transport but they also need to remain stationary.
Stompa It is a gorkanaut boosted by 50% but with the cost boosted by +200%. Would be worth it with a base cost of around 550 points.
I'll take this and edit the few things that I feel don't reflect what I read in the thread. It's also a pretty raindbow
Cuz05 wrote: Half the time, Ramshackle Monster saves just 1 wound for me. The other half, I forget to even use it.
Pretty worthless to me
yeah the regular ramshackle rule is straight up better even though it is a 6+. I started reading it and was like "awesome!", then saw the degrading for each failure, and was like..."so 1 lascannon doing decent damage is not unlikely to erase this entirely" I mean 3 damage has a 28% chance of wiping out the entire rule. 6 damage is very going to take it out.(50-50 to fail, so the first 2 damage takes out the 4+, then the remaining 4 takes both the 5+ and 6+) if it were going to degrade I would rather see it do so with the model profile when it takes wounds, so 4+ in the first phase, 5+ in the second stage, and 6+ in the final stage. Or if it was to be more interesting, have it get better as it loses wounds and reverse that. So it gets more durable as it gets closer to being dead.
Cuz05 wrote: Half the time, Ramshackle Monster saves just 1 wound for me. The other half, I forget to even use it.
Pretty worthless to me
yeah the regular ramshackle rule is straight up better even though it is a 6+. I started reading it and was like "awesome!", then saw the degrading for each failure, and was like..."so 1 lascannon doing decent damage is not unlikely to erase this entirely" I mean 3 damage has a 28% chance of wiping out the entire rule. 6 damage is very going to take it out.(50-50 to fail, so the first 2 damage takes out the 4+, then the remaining 4 takes both the 5+ and 6+) if it were going to degrade I would rather see it do so with the model profile when it takes wounds, so 4+ in the first phase, 5+ in the second stage, and 6+ in the final stage. Or if it was to be more interesting, have it get better as it loses wounds and reverse that. So it gets more durable as it gets closer to being dead.
Another example of something that could have been good for orks but some idiot at GW grabbed and destroyed first.
The Idea of giving it a 4+ Ramshackle that degrades with wounds is a great one, It also makes more sense.
Cuz05 wrote: Half the time, Ramshackle Monster saves just 1 wound for me. The other half, I forget to even use it.
Pretty worthless to me
yeah the regular ramshackle rule is straight up better even though it is a 6+. I started reading it and was like "awesome!", then saw the degrading for each failure, and was like..."so 1 lascannon doing decent damage is not unlikely to erase this entirely" I mean 3 damage has a 28% chance of wiping out the entire rule. 6 damage is very going to take it out.(50-50 to fail, so the first 2 damage takes out the 4+, then the remaining 4 takes both the 5+ and 6+) if it were going to degrade I would rather see it do so with the model profile when it takes wounds, so 4+ in the first phase, 5+ in the second stage, and 6+ in the final stage. Or if it was to be more interesting, have it get better as it loses wounds and reverse that. So it gets more durable as it gets closer to being dead.
Another example of something that could have been good for orks but some idiot at GW grabbed and destroyed first.
The Idea of giving it a 4+ Ramshackle that degrades with wounds is a great one, It also makes more sense.
I mean it falls into my issue with FW right now that everything they make seems better than the equivalent from GW, but yeah it would be actually a useful rule.
I really want someone who actually plays the faction and gives a damn about them being good to be put in charge of our 8th edition codex which is set for release in 2029.
Kaptain Badrukk would be dark blue on that rainbow list as a solo He provides our only source of safe plasma
(Have to admitt he did a better job overall than i did with my previous list)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wazbom Yellow - Only needed if taking an air det to provide KFF to a flyer squadron ..(ie two or more dakkjets /blitaz)
Bikers Yellow - small groups can bubble wrap a warboss and get a BC to the front quick They are pricey thou ..
Nob Bikers = Red ..just to little for to many points
Buggies and Trakks are better than Deffkoptas at the same job for less points but no bomb so same level as deffkoptas
Yellow
Skorcha Buggy is Blue ..its auto hit and fast enough to deliver and a group is tough enough and has enough wounds per model to get a few shots off before they start popping
-I'd rate blitza bombers yellow because they're too expensive for what they do. They want to kill elites but elites almost never run in squads of more than 5.
-Dakkajets are only ok because orks really lack efficient shooting and dakkajet is the closest to...almost having it. It's no more than 50% overpriced - which is almost like OP for ork standards. And that's more like blue rather than cyan.
-Burnabombers are worse blitza bombers, so they go red. Not because they're awful and unplayable but because they literally do the same thing but worse for ~the same amount of points.
- I don't understant the honor of being cyan that painboyz and banner nobz get. Especially footslogging painboyz and 79 ppm banner nobz. I can see a niche use of a biker painboy if you're desperate to make a biker horde army work somewhat (but you're probably still better off with just more bikers). There is Grotsnik - a bigger better painboy that is twice as tough, twice as killy and costs just a couple pts more. And there is almost no reason to take more than one painboy. Thus, i'd rate Painboyz...orange? Cause they're between yellow and red. If i had to choose one, i'd pick yellow. Their niche is occupied with Grotsnik that's better for like 95% of the lists. And banner nobz are just too expensive. You got to protect him and keep distance in mind and he only buffs choppiness while orks start lacking bodies by turn 3. I'd just spend this points on 13 more boyz, to be honest. Often, boy'z mellee damage output is allready enough without extra buffs.
- On the other hand, nobz and kommandoes should definitely be cyan. Nobz are the driving force of mech ork lists. And if not for the vehicles being overpriced and easy to kill, nobz would have been green. They concentrate the punch, they have big choppas and 4+. And most importantly they have ammo runts to eat multi-damage weapons. Kommandoes feel somewhat overpriced and underperforming if you just look at their stats but their tactical implimentation is huge. They can appear anywhere any time you like. A min squad just costs 45 pts and for this cost you get a free nob and 2 burnas. They don't kill all that much but they supplement the force and help you score. Great unit. A bit lacking and not great for spam but you will appretiate a squad or two of those guyz.
- I'd rate burnas yellow. They're only red because people have been given false expectations of them being green. But they're kinda like more concentrated shootaboyz. Ok for mech lists. And once again, if ork transports were better, burnas would also perform better.
- I also think that big/mek gunz should be blue. They aren't great at shooting but they can score and distract an opponent from pouring more fire into boyz. So, that's a niche.
Jidmah wrote: First post is still missing judgement on the following units:
Burna-Bommer
Wazbom Blastajet
Wartrakks/Buggies
Warbikers
Biker Nobz
Skorchas
Kaptin Badrukk (maybe consider running him without Flash Gits?)
"They all suck, never play them" is not something I will add to the first post.
Also a full list of FW units would be nice.
I've covered burna bomber above.
Warbikers - they're really fast, can be considered to have ok shooting for ork standards, are quite durable vs small arms fire but fold like wet paper vs d2+ weapons - especially imperial plasma. If not for that weakness, bikers would have been better. I've played vs an ork biker horde as tau and they did way better than i had expected. But the tau list really lacked multi-damage weapons outside of a couple fusion commanders and an overpriced ghostkeel. What's good about bikers is that they can be used alongside footslogging hordes. They'd probably be not as good as stormboyz cause they take away from redundancy of such lists. But IF you can avoid multi-damage weapons with bikers, they're good.
Wartrakks, warbuggies and skorchas. They should be 30% cheaper to become decent. But other than that, they're all basically bikers. Skorcha would have been better if it had 10' range on it's flamer so that it could outflank and burn things emidiately. All this units have basically the same niche. Move quick and try to tarpit stuff.
Warbikers - they're really fast, can be considered to have ok shooting for ork standards, are quite durable vs small arms fire but fold like wet paper vs d2+ weapons - especially imperial plasma. If not for that weakness, bikers would have been better. I've played vs an ork biker horde as tau and they did way better than i had expected. But the tau list really lacked multi-damage weapons outside of a couple fusion commanders and an overpriced ghostkeel. What's good about bikers is that they can be used alongside footslogging hordes. They'd probably be not as good as stormboyz cause they take away from redundancy of such lists. But IF you can avoid multi-damage weapons with bikers, they're good.
I agree they're not that terrible, but still yellow imho. If you run footslogging dudes those bikes are gonna receive all the multi-damage weapons in the opponent list dying turn 1. I think they can be decent in a full mechanized list with walkers and/or transports. They can decently soak anti infantry shots but die horribly to plasmas or better weapons.
- I don't understant the honor of being cyan that painboyz and banner nobz get. Especially footslogging painboyz and 79 ppm banner nobz. I can see a niche use of a biker painboy if you're desperate to make a biker horde army work somewhat (but you're probably still better off with just more bikers). There is Grotsnik - a bigger better painboy that is twice as tough, twice as killy and costs just a couple pts more. And there is almost no reason to take more than one painboy. Thus, i'd rate Painboyz...orange? Cause they're between yellow and red. If i had to choose one, i'd pick yellow. Their niche is occupied with Grotsnik that's better for like 95% of the lists. And banner nobz are just too expensive. You got to protect him and keep distance in mind and he only buffs choppiness while orks start lacking bodies by turn 3. I'd just spend this points on 13 more boyz, to be honest. Often, boy'z mellee damage output is allready enough without extra buffs.
I usually bring two painboyz (one being grotsnik), and I definately think they are worth it. I bring them even when I don't bring KFF-meks. The way I see it, they have earned their points back if they heal 5-6 wounds on characters, and made the same number of saves on boyz. And they almost always accomplish that. Also, they have great damage output, while being very fragile (not grotsnik). So they are great for popping rhinos and such. I think they are solid.
I would also rate Nobz as cyan, but I think people are down on them because of plasma-scions being such a big part of the meta (at least where I am playing). Plasma scions just wreck anything with W2, and it is not just Nobz that are hurting. Things like bikers, terminators, flesh hounds and primaris marines are all super fragile because of them. But of course ammo runts really help nobz out here. I wish warbikers could take ammo runts.
As for the banner nob, I think he is solid in any list but a greentide list where he is average. In mechanized lists and walker lists he is very good, and a lot of people run those lists.
Fourthly, I think the dark blue colour is annoying on a black background.
if youre running 90+ boyz i dont see why you wouldnt add a painboy. The odds of him not making his cost back are pretty low. Usually between the 3 30boy blobs he saves about 10-20boyz for me...which easily makes his price worth it. I actually rarely get to heal characters with him since most of the time my boss/mek/nobz just dont ever get hurt or die in 1 swoop (except Ghaz, only used him once so far but the dude's 4++ luck was intense that game)
Why would a bannernob be average in a greentide? Making 70-120 attacks hit on 2s doesnt sound average to me.
I didn't realize first page didn't include FW. Whoops my bad! Is ther by intent?
Kill tank is quite good, as is garg squig. Not sold on big trukks myself yet. Hope we give analysis of FW stuff too!
Zhad has been a beast for me as well. Dies every game but. Or before causing a lot of wrecked vehicles and firepower directed at him though. I've been playing him with fully mek orks in rolla wagons with ard tops. Wagons zhad and a biker KFF push as a blob and can spread out once they hit enemy lines, while dakka trukks run amok and kill people off obj and claim them/create openings for boys via shooting. My dash gits got really lucky one game and squad of 6 killed 30 conscripts in one turn from rolling a 6 twice and getting two free rounds of shooting that turn. Using Cp to reroll this die is highly advised lol.
Supported by flash gits bustas and lootas all in trukks I'm having fun but I can tell it's going to have a hard time vs more competitive lists. Outside of my one psyker I can't deal any mortal wounds anywhere, making things like Magnus very scary to compete against. Considering trying to run a garg squig possibly, maybe even a couple kill tanks to work around this. That's 1000 points of transports though that macro weapons could erase quickly. Have worries about including them at all for that reason. Wagons seem safer investments because of macro weapons im afraid
skyfi wrote: I didn't realize first page didn't include FW. Whoops my bad! Is ther by intent?
Kill tank is quite good, as is garg squig. Not sold on big trukks myself yet. Hope we give analysis of FW stuff too!
Zhad has been a beast for me as well. Dies every game but. Or before causing a lot of wrecked vehicles and firepower directed at him though. I've been playing him with fully mek orks in rolla wagons with ard tops. Wagons zhad and a biker KFF push as a blob and can spread out once they hit enemy lines, while dakka trukks run amok and kill people off obj and claim them/create openings for boys via shooting. My dash gits got really lucky one game and squad of 6 killed 30 conscripts in one turn from rolling a 6 twice and getting two free rounds of shooting that turn. Using Cp to reroll this die is highly advised lol.
Supported by flash gits bustas and lootas all in trukks I'm having fun but I can tell it's going to have a hard time vs more competitive lists. Outside of my one psyker I can't deal any mortal wounds anywhere, making things like Magnus very scary to compete against. Considering trying to run a garg squig possibly, maybe even a couple kill tanks to work around this. That's 1000 points of transports though that macro weapons could erase quickly. Have worries about including them at all for that reason. Wagons seem safer investments because of macro weapons im afraid
Ironically the main FW model i think isnt that awesome sounding is grot tanks, which is funny because they USED to be amazing. Theyre actually quite pricy right now and still squishy as squishy can be. We didnt care before because they were pennies to field anyway. Theyre 36-47pts each for a T5 4W model depending on the gun (Kommanda being more expensive since he can buy 2 guns). I'd rather pay slightly more and get Kanz because theyre just as shooty and can actually melee while the Grot Tanks cant. Still debating if the Liftadroppa is any good. Leaning towards no though.
Vineheart01 wrote: Ironically the main FW model i think isnt that awesome sounding is grot tanks, which is funny because they USED to be amazing.
Theyre actually quite pricy right now and still squishy as squishy can be. We didnt care before because they were pennies to field anyway.
Theyre 36-47pts each for a T5 4W model depending on the gun (Kommanda being more expensive since he can buy 2 guns). I'd rather pay slightly more and get Kanz because theyre just as shooty and can actually melee while the Grot Tanks cant.
Still debating if the Liftadroppa is any good. Leaning towards no though.
Very true, Grot tanks need to be able to take two weapons, or take twin weapons. 1 Shot per 36-47 points is too much. I really feel the same way about Kans but at least they can kill stuff in melee.
skyfi wrote: I didn't realize first page didn't include FW. Whoops my bad! Is ther by intent?
As previously stated, I currently don't have the time to write up a full review of everything, plus I have never found this kind of lists to be very useful, so I'd rather finish magnetizing my deff dreads than writing those.
If you post a decent review off all (or at least most) FW units, I will add it to the first post.
Note that the reviews are one-liners and should match the format of the first post.
@koooaei: Thanks for the summaries, I will have to shorten them to fit them in the first post though. Maybe later today.
@koooaei: Thanks for the summaries, I will have to shorten them to fit them in the first post though. Maybe later today.
- Painboy - is used to heal up yor IC and mitigate some damage on the boyz with 6+++. Too expensive and there is Grotsnik - a bigger better painboy that is twice as tough, twice as killy and costs just a couple pts more.
- Banner Nob - adds more punch to whatever he's close to. +1 to hit in mellee is nice, however, he's pretty expensive and his aura range is just 3". He only adds to choppiness and in many cases it's just better to get more of the stuff he's supposed to buff. OK in larger games though cause you can only get a limited amount of models within chopping range.
- Nobz - quite choppy, reasonably priced and have a wide range of equipment options. Come stock with 4+ armor now and can take ammo runts that increase their durability - especially useful against multi-wound weapons. Nobz are the driving force of mech ork lists. And if not for the vehicles being overpriced and easy to kill, nobz would have been green.
- Kommandoes - are basically boyz with +1 to cover and ability to infiltrate. Feel somewhat overpriced and underperforming if you just look at their stats but their tactical implimentation is huge. They can appear anywhere any time you like. A min squad just costs 45 pts and for this cost you get a free nob and 2 burnas. They don't kill all that much but they supplement the force and help you score.
- Burnas - they're boyz with d3 shot flamers and ap2 in mellee. People have been given false expectations of them being green and that's why they're not too popular now. But burnas are kinda like more concentrated shootaboyz if you calculate their damage output. Ok for mech lists. And once again, if ork transports were better, burnas would also perform better.
Warbikers - really fast, can be considered to have decent shooting for ork standards, are quite durable vs small arms fire but fold like wet paper vs d2+ weapons - especially imperial plasma. If not for that weakness, bikers would have been better. If you want to utilise them to the max capacity, try to avoid multi-damage weapons and use them both in shooting and mellee.
Wartrakks, Warbuggies and Skorchas - they all are basically a couple bikers welded together resulting in a slight increase in durability and in decrease in damage output point-for-point. All this units have basically the same niche. Move quick and try to tarpit stuff.
- Big/Mek Gunz - artillery pieces operated by grots. They aren't great at shooting but they can score and distract an opponent from pouring more fire into boyz. So, that's a niche.
- Dakkajet - only ok because orks really lack efficient shooting and dakkajet is the closest to...almost having it. Can reliably put down a couple wounds a turn on meq. Can be quite useful when you NEED to tear through not too numerous bauble wrap or start taking down those heavy weapon squads on the other side of the board.
- Blitza bomber - supposed to blow expensive stuff away with mortal wound bombs but elites almost never run in squads of more than 5. Other than that, playable but is not likely to pay off point-wise. Has a niche of trying to rapidly kill something like devastators or dark reapers in cover.
- Burnabomber - worse blitza bomber. Not awful but they literally do the same thing but worse for ~the same amount of points.
Uh, the range of the banner aura is 6" in my book, only Keepin' Order is 3". Maybe that's why it is performing so badly for you?
I don't really think there is currently a reason to pick burnaz over shoota boyz. You can get 7 shoota boyz for every 3 burnaz, which means more wounds, range and only slightly less shooting and melee damage. In transport lists, I would never field them over tank bustaz which are way better glass cannons than them.
They are simply too expensive for what they do and how easy they are killed, plus they don't get a nob.
If it were 5 shootas for 3 burnaz, I'd field them.
On warbikers, even when the opponent doesn't aim his multi-damage weapons (because walkers or BW are present) they die really, really fast. Too fast for 27 points a piece.
Yeah, 6" for banner nobz - no idea why i wrote 3. My point is that he is a bit too pricey. You often allready do enough if you get to combat in numbers. The main problem i've faced with ork hores is not the choppiness but speed and durability. If he also made boyz run fasta...
Putting out some drafts for Forgeworld units. I have only had limited experience with these though so someone else should probably read through and make some alterations maybe. There's a couple units I wasn't able to make a decent opinion on too, but I put the titles in so people can add in the blanks.
Grot Tanks (yellow or red) - Nice fluffy units, but only one shot per ~40 points isn't great, even at Grot BS. Random movement is hit&miss for a fast attack slot too. Cheaper than Kanz, and about the same survivability, but Kanz can melee. Not much point having both in the same list. Usable as a shooting platform, especially in a pure Mek list, but not efficient.
Grot Mega Tank (yellow or red) - Another fluffy Grot unit, the bigger and more powerful Grot Tank. More survivable, and a lot more gunz, but still has random movement. Also has a 1/6 chance of not being able to shoot in a turn, which is a big drawback. If the 6 roll allowed it to fire twice, it would be a good (and fluffier) unit, but the 6 only gives +1 to BS, which is pretty lackluster considering the huge downside.
Squiggoth - **I'll leave this one to someone else to fill in. I want it to be good but I'm yet to test it in any way.**
Meka-Dread (Blue or light blue) - Possibly the best of the Ork walkers. Decent movement, tough stats, good rules. Rattler Kannon giving 2D6 shots is probably it's best loadout. Can either have a KFF (good for a Kan Wall list), or a Mega Charga giving it a free 8" move on a turn. KFF is the better option generally. Good value for it's points.
Lifta Wagon - **Never used to looked into this unit**
Big Trakk (Blue or Light Blue) - A halfway choice between a Trukk and a Battlewagon. More survivable than the trukk, with plenty of weapon options and a fast 14" movement. Supa-Skorcha is probably the best weapon choice - Heavy 4D3 S6 AP-2 Autohits at a huge 24inches, with no movement penatlies. The biggest, nastiest flamethrower in town. One of the few options that seems to be worth its points.
Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon (Blue) - Basically just an extra weapon option for the battlewagon, so maybe include this with the normal battlewagon entry. +30 points for a 2D6 shot S8 weapon at 60" range seems like ok value, but you lose a lot of transport capacity so would depend on your list.
Kill Tank (Blue or Light Blue) - A super-heavy for a hair less than 300 points. Tough and survivable. Both weapon options give a lot of Dakka. Can even transport units that can shoot, though only at BS6+. Lots of guns and 24 wounds make this pretty good for its low cost.
Chinork Warkopta (Yellow) - Very fast, and has some decent weapons, but no flying bonus and only T5 so will die fast. For some reason is no longer open-topped. Pretty expensive for a suicide unit.
Kustom-Stompa (Red) - More expensive than a regular Stompa. Not much in the way of better options. Can't see any reason why you'd use one.
Gargantuan Squiggoth - **I've heard good things about this, but I haven't used one myself, so I'll leave this to someone else to fill in hopefully.**
i would throw my 2c on the garg squiggoth but im still trying to finish painting it.
Its such a rugged model (texture-wise) its downright frustrating to paint. So i've been dragging my feet painting the chassis that sits on his back lol
The problem I see with Ork Characters is that they are paying premium points for close combat abilities they hardly use. Realistically would you want your Painboy to have a PK or would you rather take 25pts off his base cost? How about the banner nob, same deal?
With the Banner Nob though I really liked that idea about his aura giving some kind of extra buff. SM characters are superior almost across the board. I would love the banner nob to either give +1 attack or preferably +1-2inches either in the movement phase or the charge phase. I can think of some amazing combos i we had a character that increased Charge range.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem I see with Ork Characters is that they are paying premium points for close combat abilities they hardly use. Realistically would you want your Painboy to have a PK or would you rather take 25pts off his base cost? How about the banner nob, same deal?
With the Banner Nob though I really liked that idea about his aura giving some kind of extra buff. SM characters are superior almost across the board. I would love the banner nob to either give +1 attack or preferably +1-2inches either in the movement phase or the charge phase. I can think of some amazing combos i we had a character that increased Charge range.
I'd just like the banner nob to be a flat +1 to hit. Remove the close combat restriction and he is largely fine.
It is the truth on equipment though. I'd never pay for a killsaw or PK on a painboy if not for it being required.
Vineheart01 wrote: Banner aura is definitely 6"
Hes worth it. Easily the difference between your boys landing a ton of hits vs landing a good number.
Hmm! I've been in the "not worth" camp, but I haven't really thought it through.....
He's, what, 70ish points? Let's call him 12 boyz of points.
If he's buffing 1 unit of 30 slugga boyz, they've got 120 attacks. Normally 80 of those hit, having a banner gets you 20 additional hits (although, if it survives 80 hits, I feel like maybe it's a target priority problem...). 12 boyz would net you 36 additional hits (not getting that 20 model+ bonus).
So you really need at least 2 units of boyz in order to get the most out of that bonus. For more valuable attacks, say if you give your nobz pks, it gets more efficient. That makes sense. I've been pretty bad at positioning my banner to buff two units simultaneously, but if I jump my shoota boyz in and have him running up between the sluggas and kanz, I could see him getting a lot of value.
JohnU wrote: I can give my mini squig a go, but I keep looking at the statlines and seeing a worse battlewagon.
Really I look at it and see a better battlewagon, unless you really need the 20 man transport capacity. I mean they have the same Toughness and Save the squiggoth has 2 more wounds, but 1 less attack and strength. The battlewagon hits more in close combat but does less damage. Stampede is a big advantage for a big model as you can hit multiple units. Now you can get +1 T for the wagon, but then you give up on any shooting. Also having the unit inside able to shoot while in CC with the transport is nice.
I think each has their uses, but I'm looking forward to trying the squiggoth. The gargantuan squiggoth looks very powerful I think it would be one of our better units. Problem is it costs a lot of money, and is huge so not many people will own one, and a good conversion is difficult.
Vineheart01 wrote: Banner aura is definitely 6"
Hes worth it. Easily the difference between your boys landing a ton of hits vs landing a good number.
Hmm! I've been in the "not worth" camp, but I haven't really thought it through.....
He's, what, 70ish points? Let's call him 12 boyz of points.
If he's buffing 1 unit of 30 slugga boyz, they've got 120 attacks. Normally 80 of those hit, having a banner gets you 20 additional hits (although, if it survives 80 hits, I feel like maybe it's a target priority problem...). 12 boyz would net you 36 additional hits (not getting that 20 model+ bonus).
So you really need at least 2 units of boyz in order to get the most out of that bonus. For more valuable attacks, say if you give your nobz pks, it gets more efficient. That makes sense. I've been pretty bad at positioning my banner to buff two units simultaneously, but if I jump my shoota boyz in and have him running up between the sluggas and kanz, I could see him getting a lot of value.
I typically don't use him, but in reality it is unlikely all your boyz will get to attack, so just adding boyz doesn't have the same impact (42 boyz are likely never to all be in combat range, heck 30 rarely are). The advantage to the more boyz vs his 80 points is the durability they add.
The banner nob is literally the only thing we have to improve our killyness odds. (ok you could count Ghaz but you need the charge for his to do anything) We have no rerolls whatsoever in melee (for some reason) PK's hit on 4s and still costing 25pts hurt Armor sucks so we need to kill our target first Strength and damage is average. Rate of attacks is about all we have going for us and the bannernob helps that a ton. Yeah you need 2 units of boyz to truely make him worth it, big deal why would you NOT have 2 units of boyz side by side anyway? My basic go-to for boyz is 2 slugga units and 1 shoota unit. The shoota unit dives in first and is generally just the wound sponge while it has decent dakka, real problem is behind them.
I generally run Ghaz and a Weirdboy with Warpath as well. Nothing like watching your opponents face fall off when you tell him that each Boy has 6 attacks. (2 base, 1 CCW, 1 20+ boyz, 1 Ghaz 1 Weirdboy )
Ironically the one time I brought the banner nob was near a unit that got buffed like that. It ate Girlyman and a Predator annihilator. 180 attacks (ignoring the nob for ease) 150 hits, S4 Vs T7 = 50 wounds
SemperMortis wrote: I generally run Ghaz and a Weirdboy with Warpath as well. Nothing like watching your opponents face fall off when you tell him that each Boy has 6 attacks. (2 base, 1 CCW, 1 20+ boyz, 1 Ghaz 1 Weirdboy )
Ironically the one time I brought the banner nob was near a unit that got buffed like that. It ate Girlyman and a Predator annihilator. 180 attacks (ignoring the nob for ease) 150 hits, S4 Vs T7 = 50 wounds
180 attacks would be enough even w/o a banner nob. That's my point, basically. You don't always need a 16% increase in choppiness. But you pretty much always need more bodies.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem I see with Ork Characters is that they are paying premium points for close combat abilities they hardly use. Realistically would you want your Painboy to have a PK or would you rather take 25pts off his base cost? How about the banner nob, same deal?
Yes and no. I agree 100% on pain boyz, but for the banner nob I often find him end up on the frontlines and then smashing stuff with the Waaagh! Banner. There are tons of units which will not be able to kill him even when they burn 2 CP for counter-attack.
With the Banner Nob though I really liked that idea about his aura giving some kind of extra buff. SM characters are superior almost across the board. I would love the banner nob to either give +1 attack or preferably +1-2inches either in the movement phase or the charge phase. I can think of some amazing combos i we had a character that increased Charge range.
+1 to hit is already pretty amazing. What's missing is a second character to to buff them even more, even CSM/daemons can get two buffs (+strength and rerolling hits).
SemperMortis wrote: I generally run Ghaz and a Weirdboy with Warpath as well. Nothing like watching your opponents face fall off when you tell him that each Boy has 6 attacks. (2 base, 1 CCW, 1 20+ boyz, 1 Ghaz 1 Weirdboy )
Ironically the one time I brought the banner nob was near a unit that got buffed like that. It ate Girlyman and a Predator annihilator. 180 attacks (ignoring the nob for ease) 150 hits, S4 Vs T7 = 50 wounds
180 attacks would be enough even w/o a banner nob. That's my point, basically. You don't always need a 16% increase in choppiness. But you pretty much always need more bodies.
In my meta whole mobs of boyz disappear in one turn, I'm pretty happy when the leftovers get more hits in.
We already have a 2nd and third character that give buffs to attack. Ghaz and Weirdboy. The problem is Ghaz is MASSIVELY expensive and he gives such a small buff for those points. Hell I would pay another 50pts if they gave him +1 attack and +1 strength to boyz, Suddenly T8 is no longer borderline invincible to boyz.
As to the point about whole mobs of boyz disappearing in one turn...get ready this is crazy, this isn't because orks are weak. Actually it is the opposite, shooting is to strong. If you made boyz cheaper or gave them better armor it would ruin the entire game, the answer is nerfing fething stupid weapons like Asscans and Hurricane bolters.
I also would like to see some new rules regarding characters in CC. I have had numerous fights where my opponent pays those 2CP to snipe a character because he finally gets to the front lines, its ridiculous how this happens. In the shooting phase you can't target htem which is nice but in CC you suddenly can? Makes no sense.
My complaint about the Weirdboy buffing attacks via Warpath is it ALWAYS GETS DENIED (or i perils due to number of boyz around me)
Da Jump is usually far enough away where you cant deny it. Few times i run my weirdboy atm hes got Da Jump not warpath
SemperMortis wrote: As to the point about whole mobs of boyz disappearing in one turn...get ready this is crazy, this isn't because orks are weak. Actually it is the opposite, shooting is to strong. If you made boyz cheaper or gave them better armor it would ruin the entire game, the answer is nerfing fething stupid weapons like Asscans and Hurricane bolters.
Actually, this usually happens in CC. Daemonettes, multiple cc characters or genestealers tear mobs of 30 appart.
I also would like to see some new rules regarding characters in CC. I have had numerous fights where my opponent pays those 2CP to snipe a character because he finally gets to the front lines, its ridiculous how this happens. In the shooting phase you can't target htem which is nice but in CC you suddenly can? Makes no sense.
Only models which are within 1" of the character or within 1" of such a model can attack it. If you charge your boyz mob first you can usually limit the number of models that can strike to 4 or less, either by blocking access left and right, or by charging him into the side of a unit which has all units in base contact with your boyz (those may not pile into him).
Sure, 4 assault terminators tear him apart, but your usual rank and file soldiers like tatical marines, imperial soldiers, necrons or most daemons are not going to kill a 4W 4+ model. The banner nob, however, will kill one or two of those.
1) A killsaw is not a disaster on a model with 4 attacks, but of course a 40 point painboy would be preferable. A 40 point Big Mek with a 6+ save would also be nice, but alas no such option. For some reason a klaw or saw is mandatory for painboyz and armor is mandatory for Big Meks.
2) As for the Warbosses I just charge them right in, and if they die then they die.
3) The twin assault cannon is undercosted. It is one of the only twin-linked turned twin-weapon that is CHEAPER than two singles.
4) My weirdboyz never gets denied. And this is why the painboy is so good, he allows you to just roll and not care so much about a possible peril. You can trust the the painboy to recharge that D6 smite-machine next turn.
5) The banner Nob is fine. But my general experience has been that more boyz is always preferable to the alternative. I have gone from about 100 boyz to twice that and I have steadily increased the ration of shootas to sluggas. Maybe 240 shootas is where it is at.
6) One funny use of warbikers is that they can block knights from falling back, because bikers are not infantry. Just engage the knight with some boyz, and position the bikes or bike characters on three sides of the knight not getting within the 1" zone. The knight will be tied up until all the boyz has been stomped which may not happen before game end. And the bikers can still shoot while keeping the knight at bay.
Now I'm thinking is there any point in kitting them out with anything else than 4 Klaws? A Skorcha seems to be to only worthwhile ranged option really. Now I could magnetize them to allow for a Skorcha or just use the Skorchas to kitbash a Supa Skorcha for a Big Trakk (which is a more tempting option tbh).
Weazel wrote: Just got 2 Deff Dreads, because why not.
Now I'm thinking is there any point in kitting them out with anything else than 4 Klaws? A Skorcha seems to be to only worthwhile ranged option really. Now I could magnetize them to allow for a Skorcha or just use the Skorchas to kitbash a Supa Skorcha for a Big Trakk (which is a more tempting option tbh).
So what's Dakka's verdict?
Double Skorchas has worked fine for me.
I'd recommend double Skorcha for more defensive builds, 3 Klaws and one Scorcha for offensive builds.
Weazel wrote: Just got 2 Deff Dreads, because why not.
Now I'm thinking is there any point in kitting them out with anything else than 4 Klaws? A Skorcha seems to be to only worthwhile ranged option really. Now I could magnetize them to allow for a Skorcha or just use the Skorchas to kitbash a Supa Skorcha for a Big Trakk (which is a more tempting option tbh).
So what's Dakka's verdict?
I've magnetized it as well. I don't play dread mobs and maybe in that setting dreads' loadout could be different but I'd go with the cheapest wargear, 2 klaws and 2 big shootas. I've always played cheap dreads in the previous editions, and I haven't tried walkers in 8th, but even the W, T and save profile dreads look quite squishy and a single round of anti tank weapons should wreck them. If they are full kitted they became a high priority, but sometimes even stock they are a bullet magnet. I don't think that a dread with 4 klaws would have the chance to strike.
Big Trakk ..overall is yellow due to point costs and situational use ..Three Loadouts come to mind that are usefull but expensive..
Big Trakk Super Skorcha ..Cause 4-12 autohit Str 6 -1 ap + can take up to 6 riders..Max life 3 turns Shove a minimum tankbusta unit here and kill some tanks This si the only real use I have found and this load out has proven effective..
Big Trakk Super Kannon ..only slightly cheaper than wagon can hide and shoot a bit better than the wagon due to lower profile' Zaapa Gunz are more efficent ..
As a more durable trukk ..yes it works ..can survive the first turn of shooting but is it going to win you games ..NO..cause can take two trukks for the points
Any other big gun ...Kinda useless just dosent have the ability to hit much
Kill Tank .Hard hitting ork shooting at BS 3 Yes please...Expensive but no more so than a Gork and hits harder than a Gork at range
I've kitted my Dread out with 4 klaws because I feel the shooting weapons are completely lackluster. Plus, any casualties from shooting would increase my charge distance which is where the Deff Dread's stats start to shine.
Does the kill tank have no AP value for its melee attacks? Not finding anything that shows it having any. It appears to be just +2S the turn it charges and on a 2+ causes d3 mortal wounds in one unit within 1" when finishing a charge move
Automatically Appended Next Post: 3 kill tanks in a list seems like fun
This list I've cooked up includes flash gits, but you could swap them out for something else. Same for bustas if you don't like em.
Weazel wrote: Just got 2 Deff Dreads, because why not.
Now I'm thinking is there any point in kitting them out with anything else than 4 Klaws? A Skorcha seems to be to only worthwhile ranged option really. Now I could magnetize them to allow for a Skorcha or just use the Skorchas to kitbash a Supa Skorcha for a Big Trakk (which is a more tempting option tbh).
So what's Dakka's verdict?
Try getting the skorcha bits from the kanz box, people rarely need them so they often end up on ebay or other bit sellers. Or just ask some other ork players.
They fit into the deff dread perfectly (lower arms are the same as Kanz arms).
Then use the skorcha bits from the dread kit to build your supa skorcha
In any case, magnetize them - it's very easy to do. Any advice that's good today might be terrible when the codex hits next year.
I find the problem with using a brigade detachment (at least around the usual points level of 2000) is that our army doesn't work too well when we try combined arms compared to other armies. If we stick to a certain army theme, whether it be Dred Mob, Mechanized or Footslogging, we kind of have to go all in or it doesn't really work well. Brigades force you to effectively half-ass several slots to justify gaining the extra command points. Kommandos are fine for filling elite slots, but a lot of our fast attack slots require for you to either make a decent investment to make them work (i.e. MSU stormboyz aren't particularly worth it and dakkajets aren't super cheap) and can effectively dilute your army's focus. Furthermore, CP's aren't worth that kind of investment right now for a lot of the Index-dependent factions like Orks right now since there's not that many interesting options for us to exploit.
On that same note, are Gorkanauts only really worth taking in dred mob and green tide lists?
In the half dozen or so games I've brought my gorkanaught, in a mixed list or supporting a tide, he's either put in great work or been wrecked in one turn by something in a bigger weight class than him. I've had him mvp against ravenwing bikers carrying the rest of the army and twice has Magnus warptimed behind him and shoved that staff straight up the tailpipe for a OHKO. He's just not that durable I can imagine alot of things putting him down
koooaei wrote: Yeah, 6" for banner nobz - no idea why i wrote 3. My point is that he is a bit too pricey. You often allready do enough if you get to combat in numbers. The main problem i've faced with ork hores is not the choppiness but speed and durability. If he also made boyz run fasta...
Helps with the Killsaws and claws though. it gets back the -1 to hit, and allows a good volume of hits with possibly the best can openers the orks have.
I find the problem with using a brigade detachment (at least around the usual points level of 2000) is that our army doesn't work too well when we try combined arms compared to other armies. If we stick to a certain army theme, whether it be Dred Mob, Mechanized or Footslogging, we kind of have to go all in or it doesn't really work well. Brigades force you to effectively half-ass several slots to justify gaining the extra command points. Kommandos are fine for filling elite slots, but a lot of our fast attack slots require for you to either make a decent investment to make them work (i.e. MSU stormboyz aren't particularly worth it and dakkajets aren't super cheap) and can effectively dilute your army's focus. Furthermore, CP's aren't worth that kind of investment right now for a lot of the Index-dependent factions like Orks right now since there's not that many interesting options for us to exploit.
On that same note, are Gorkanauts only really worth taking in dred mob and green tide lists?
I don't think gorkanauts perform well in green tide lists, they would soak all the anti tank in the world dying very early.
Nauts could do well in those lists that have a bunch other T6-8 units.
i need to get a gork because it would fill that odd 380pt void in my list where i feel like im just taking random things to fill the list out lol.
i've had dakkajets, bikers, kopters, and various random HQs (including Zhad, wow hes mean) and added excess stuff to the boyz lol.
i'm already running 3x dreads and 6x kanz. I dont really see a way for orks to reliably deal with fliers so i'm basically just ignoring them (kanz can atleast hit them on 5s if theres no land vehicles left)
Vineheart01 wrote: i need to get a gork because it would fill that odd 380pt void in my list where i feel like im just taking random things to fill the list out lol.
i've had dakkajets, bikers, kopters, and various random HQs (including Zhad, wow hes mean) and added excess stuff to the boyz lol.
i'm already running 3x dreads and 6x kanz. I dont really see a way for orks to reliably deal with fliers so i'm basically just ignoring them (kanz can atleast hit them on 5s if theres no land vehicles left)
I always feel I have a big hole in my 2,000pt lists that I am desperately trying to fill. This is probably because I don't have enough Boyz models because realistically I would just take more boyz (160 is not nearly enough apparently) I don't think in a foot sloggin list I would take a vehicle though, it would draw way to much enemy fire power.
Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
Ohh I agree 100%, I AM SICK of having to run a green tide. My next tournament I am running a modified green tide with heavy kommandos instead of more boyz/stormboyz. SO I am hoping that works well enough. But even then I will still be bored :( And unfortunately my meta isn't conducive to running a mek list. And honestly, Kanz suck. They lack dakka and they suck in CC so what the hell is the point with them? Dreadz are decent in CC, still not great, and my Naut is fine but will probably die turn 1 or 2.
I am praying to god that we get a codex sooner rather then later because I am quickly getting bored with the index.
6 kanz are still quite deadly in melee and are still cheaper than 3 dreads for roughly the same amount of melee death (given the hit ratio and not wounding on 2s against T5. Kanz with 3+ models have 4 attacks, S7 AP-3 3Damange hit on 5s, Dreads have 5/6 depending on klaw numbers and are S10 hit on 3s...bout the same to me unless its a T7+ target) Plus, funny fact, bannernob isnt restricted to infantry for some reason. While i wouldnt bring him just for the walkers, keep him alive and once enough boyz die just shift over lol. For some reason (unless i missed a faq) the killa kanz have the ork <klan> tag which is all the bannernob looks for.
Course most of my success with kanz have been underdog surprises. People have a habit of ignoring them because "they only fire 6 rokkits and despite it being 24 attacks they hit on 5s and its only S7" - then they charge something and mulch it. Which at that point its too late to shoot them down lol. Only time so far someone killed them first they got shredded by the trio of dreads anyway so either way works for me lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
Ohh I agree 100%, I AM SICK of having to run a green tide. My next tournament I am running a modified green tide with heavy kommandos instead of more boyz/stormboyz. SO I am hoping that works well enough. But even then I will still be bored :( And unfortunately my meta isn't conducive to running a mek list. And honestly, Kanz suck. They lack dakka and they suck in CC so what the hell is the point with them? Dreadz are decent in CC, still not great, and my Naut is fine but will probably die turn 1 or 2.
I am praying to god that we get a codex sooner rather then later because I am quickly getting bored with the index.
Try running a few full shoota squads with rokkits and then not advance them when they get within 18". It really works a lot better than you would expect. Shootas outshoot a lot of stuff out there, allthough the rokkits are kind of meh, even when not advancing.
I am not convinced that the codex will fix non-greentide orks. A large part of the reason that things like tankbustas and lootas are not viable on foot, is because of they way the new cover-rules has screwed over orks. I really don't see any easy fix to that. If you make tankbustas cheap enough to be viable on foot, then they would be utterly broken in a mechanized list. On the other hand, kans and deffdreads are easy to fix. They just need a 25% price reduction or something like that.
Vineheart01 wrote: 6 kanz are still quite deadly in melee and are still cheaper than 3 dreads for roughly the same amount of melee death (given the hit ratio and not wounding on 2s against T5. Kanz with 3+ models have 4 attacks, S7 AP-3 3Damange hit on 5s, Dreads have 5/6 depending on klaw numbers and are S10 hit on 3s...bout the same to me unless its a T7+ target)
Plus, funny fact, bannernob isnt restricted to infantry for some reason. While i wouldnt bring him just for the walkers, keep him alive and once enough boyz die just shift over lol.
For some reason (unless i missed a faq) the killa kanz have the ork <klan> tag which is all the bannernob looks for.
Course most of my success with kanz have been underdog surprises. People have a habit of ignoring them because "they only fire 6 rokkits and despite it being 24 attacks they hit on 5s and its only S7" - then they charge something and mulch it. Which at that point its too late to shoot them down lol. Only time so far someone killed them first they got shredded by the trio of dreads anyway so either way works for me lol.
My problem with 6 Kans is that they cost as much as a gorkanaut, which I feel is often a better solution. Kans have a slight advantage against Multiple damage weapons, but they are much easier to wound with small arms fire.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
Ohh I agree 100%, I AM SICK of having to run a green tide. My next tournament I am running a modified green tide with heavy kommandos instead of more boyz/stormboyz. SO I am hoping that works well enough. But even then I will still be bored :( And unfortunately my meta isn't conducive to running a mek list. And honestly, Kanz suck. They lack dakka and they suck in CC so what the hell is the point with them? Dreadz are decent in CC, still not great, and my Naut is fine but will probably die turn 1 or 2.
I am praying to god that we get a codex sooner rather then later because I am quickly getting bored with the index.
Try running a few full shoota squads with rokkits and then not advance them when they get within 18". It really works a lot better than you would expect. Shootas outshoot a lot of stuff out there, allthough the rokkits are kind of meh, even when not advancing.
I am not convinced that the codex will fix non-greentide orks. A large part of the reason that things like tankbustas and lootas are not viable on foot, is because of they way the new cover-rules has screwed over orks. I really don't see any easy fix to that. If you make tankbustas cheap enough to be viable on foot, then they would be utterly broken in a mechanized list. On the other hand, kans and deffdreads are easy to fix. They just need a 25% price reduction or something like that.
I think being broken in mech lists depends on the cost of vehicles. Right now you could drop them to be viable on foot and not break mech lists because the vehicles are expensive.
I think the better fix for tankbustas/flash gitz would be to tweak the wagon, not them.
Because of the ork mentality of being paper thin or tough as nails, never in the middle, tankbustas will always bee too expensive on foot unless they did something silly like 10ppm. But then like you said they'd get hilariously broken with a mechanical list if that was the case.
The wagon should be pricecut heftily and be given a special "Dakka Platform" rule that denies it access to a roller and killkannon but units embarked can fire Heavy as though they never moved and if it didnt move they add 1 to hit.
Or something along those lines just pulling ideas out of my ass.
or, yaknow, return the trukk to the dirt-cheap transport it usually is. Paying ~100pts for a stupid trukk is unnerving since that used to be a 38pt thing (or something around there i forget exactly)
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
I started using these snazzy wood 30 wound trackers. One for each of my 6 boys mobs (and a movement tray.)
Saves a TON time counting squads. Got a tote divided 6 ways to put the dead in so all the units stay together between games.
Also started using the Iphone app GW: Assault Dice. Since it is sanctioned most people are ok with it. Rolls 180 Dice NP.
Vineheart01 wrote: I think the better fix for tankbustas/flash gitz would be to tweak the wagon, not them.
Because of the ork mentality of being paper thin or tough as nails, never in the middle, tankbustas will always bee too expensive on foot unless they did something silly like 10ppm. But then like you said they'd get hilariously broken with a mechanical list if that was the case.
The wagon should be pricecut heftily and be given a special "Dakka Platform" rule that denies it access to a roller and killkannon but units embarked can fire Heavy as though they never moved and if it didnt move they add 1 to hit.
Or something along those lines just pulling ideas out of my ass.
or, yaknow, return the trukk to the dirt-cheap transport it usually is. Paying ~100pts for a stupid trukk is unnerving since that used to be a 38pt thing (or something around there i forget exactly)
I think tank bustas seem fair at 12-13 points. So a wagon of 15 would be 360 points. A trukk with 10 would be ~200 points. Neither of those seem broken to me, while 120-180 points for foot sloggers seems ok, but would be very easy to kill, but realistically you could take 2-3 such squads to give them some durability.
As for flash gitz they probably need to be around 20-22 points and have assault weapons. I don't think fixing the vehicle is the right way to fix a different unit because it forces them to be used in the vehicle to be worth it at all.
I think the only way a "dakka Platform" would work is if it were a paid upgrade, and just gave embarked units +1 to hit as long as the vehicle does not advance. Orks don't have many heavy weapons so it would amount to an upgrade that works for like 2 units.
I'm debating on my next army. It's either Orks, or Harlequins/DE. I play exclusively in ITC tournaments or practice games for tournaments. I know Harlequins and DE are overall rated higher than Orks, but this is largely at 2000 point level.
In 2000 point singles, I already have my competitive army, which is Grey Knights. But they scale horribly at lower point values, and probably never will scale very well, so I'm thinking of adding another army.
For 1000-1500 point games, I feel like Orks can be a solid choice, due to the number of bodies they can field. Also, these smaller games have more of a limitation on detachments, so it's hard to see broken LOW combos or expensive flyers when you've only got 2 detachments in the first place. I'm aware guard scale very well here, but I don't like picking up the latest cheese (why play with a stacked deck?)
The core of my list I want to be a battalion.
HQ: Warboss
HQ: Weirdboy
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
I'm not sold on the numbers, perhaps squads of 30 are too big. But this is still under 700 points.
Also, i see this list functioning in a doubles context, so it would have the support of heavy, accurate artillery, from any faction.
Been thinking more and more about kill tanks. I wanted to include them for the dakka + mortal wounds dealt by charging. Was thinking a list with 3 of them could be fun.
What worries me is the lack of AP value for their meee attacks when it comes time to that... and macro weapons.
I feel it may be better than spending 1000 points on kill tanks, to spend 540 on rolla wagons, increase my boys count from 3 x 10 squads to 3x20 which would be +180.. leaving 280 points left to be spent on possibly weirdboys, a second flash git trukk or tankbustas trukk etc.
So many points to blow up T1 if I come up against macro. Damn that titanic keyword. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy... does kill tank not have the titanic keyword?!
I'm debating on my next army. It's either Orks, or Harlequins/DE. I play exclusively in ITC tournaments or practice games for tournaments. I know Harlequins and DE are overall rated higher than Orks, but this is largely at 2000 point level.
In 2000 point singles, I already have my competitive army, which is Grey Knights. But they scale horribly at lower point values, and probably never will scale very well, so I'm thinking of adding another army.
For 1000-1500 point games, I feel like Orks can be a solid choice, due to the number of bodies they can field. Also, these smaller games have more of a limitation on detachments, so it's hard to see broken LOW combos or expensive flyers when you've only got 2 detachments in the first place. I'm aware guard scale very well here, but I don't like picking up the latest cheese (why play with a stacked deck?)
The core of my list I want to be a battalion.
HQ: Warboss
HQ: Weirdboy
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
I'm not sold on the numbers, perhaps squads of 30 are too big. But this is still under 700 points.
Also, i see this list functioning in a doubles context, so it would have the support of heavy, accurate artillery, from any faction.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Orks scale down pretty well and cheap 30 man squads are a big reason why. At 1000 points you still get a ton of useful bodies while other armies are struggling to fit in their toys for both anti-horde and anti-armor, and on a 4x4 board there's less room for them to run from you.
The main issue is that Asscan Razorbacks are only 100 points...
Vineheart01 wrote: My dreads are 3klaw 1 skorcha but honestly i kinda wish they were 4klaw. The lone skorcha helps but not that much, i dont get why its 17pts...
Maybe because it bypasses BS2?
I'm thinking double Skorcha or double Klaws are now best. Mix and matching just seems to make it a Mek of all trades type of thing. Either make it killy or deal with light infantry easier.
+1 on Greentide. It's fun at first plopping that many Boyz down but after a while it's basically running across the field.
Started to incorporate walkers too. I'm having fun with them. Just not Grotzookas, f*** Grotzookas.
Grotzookas being heavy and kanz not ignoring heavy penalty keep me from even trying them out.
I thought about switching to bigshootas to save 6ppm but im not really going to get anything else in the list with a spare 36pts most of the time and the rokkits at BS4+ DO tend to peck things as im walking up i'd rather not charge at full strength.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the thing. I dont like greentides, theyre kinda stale after awhile since all it is every game is "How many boyz did you kill before i charged?" rather than target priority stuff.
Hence the walkers. I could add another 60ish boyz but i just dont want to.
Ohh I agree 100%, I AM SICK of having to run a green tide. My next tournament I am running a modified green tide with heavy kommandos instead of more boyz/stormboyz. SO I am hoping that works well enough. But even then I will still be bored :( And unfortunately my meta isn't conducive to running a mek list. And honestly, Kanz suck. They lack dakka and they suck in CC so what the hell is the point with them? Dreadz are decent in CC, still not great, and my Naut is fine but will probably die turn 1 or 2.
I am praying to god that we get a codex sooner rather then later because I am quickly getting bored with the index.
So, in your meta you can't run vehicles but they must play against your horde lists often enough they have to recognize that their AT weapons are useless and change their lists to accommodate more AI, no? I'd throw Trukks stuffed with Nobz at them if and when that happens.
JohnU wrote: Orks aren't threatening enough to tailor against specifically, unless your meta is weird or cool enough to be mostly Orks.
Pretty much this. I finish well in my tournaments but so do a lot of SM players and I have yet to see a SM player in my area take less then 4 vehicles, so my opponents are generally stacking a fair amount of anti-tank weaponry, if they are feeling squirrely they will bring Plasma Cannons with the rerolls and banner. that way they can liquidate elite infantry AND vehicles relatively easily.
My last two tournies have been won by Ultra Smurfs running the Girlyman reroll bubble with a smattering of different units as auxiliaries.
So TLDR: No, they don't list tailor against my Horde style.
Might be late to the party with this, but badrukk + flash gits + ammo runts = ork snipers. Reroll the 1's from badrukk and the ammo runts reroll 2's and 3's. It's not space marine captain accurate, but still a sniper rifle compared to the rest of the index.
JohnU wrote: Orks aren't threatening enough to tailor against specifically, unless your meta is weird or cool enough to be mostly Orks.
Pretty much this. I finish well in my tournaments but so do a lot of SM players and I have yet to see a SM player in my area take less then 4 vehicles, so my opponents are generally stacking a fair amount of anti-tank weaponry, if they are feeling squirrely they will bring Plasma Cannons with the rerolls and banner. that way they can liquidate elite infantry AND vehicles relatively easily.
My last two tournies have been won by Ultra Smurfs running the Girlyman reroll bubble with a smattering of different units as auxiliaries.
So TLDR: No, they don't list tailor against my Horde style.
Must not be that much fun to play where you are with always having to go against the same Girlyman lists all the time. Sounds very monotonous. You may feel pigeonholed into a monobuild but the SM players in your meta don't seem to be utilizing much of their codex either beyond the standard Girlyman build.
I'm debating on my next army. It's either Orks, or Harlequins/DE. I play exclusively in ITC tournaments or practice games for tournaments. I know Harlequins and DE are overall rated higher than Orks, but this is largely at 2000 point level.
In 2000 point singles, I already have my competitive army, which is Grey Knights. But they scale horribly at lower point values, and probably never will scale very well, so I'm thinking of adding another army.
For 1000-1500 point games, I feel like Orks can be a solid choice, due to the number of bodies they can field. Also, these smaller games have more of a limitation on detachments, so it's hard to see broken LOW combos or expensive flyers when you've only got 2 detachments in the first place. I'm aware guard scale very well here, but I don't like picking up the latest cheese (why play with a stacked deck?)
The core of my list I want to be a battalion.
HQ: Warboss
HQ: Weirdboy
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
Troop1: 29xOrk Boyz, 1xBoss Nob. Choppa/Slugga
I'm not sold on the numbers, perhaps squads of 30 are too big. But this is still under 700 points.
Also, i see this list functioning in a doubles context, so it would have the support of heavy, accurate artillery, from any faction.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Hi, I can give a feedback since I play both armies (pure drukhari without harlies though). At their best both orks and drukhari are basically on the same level of competitiveness but they have a completely different style of playing. Orks are essentially a footslogging army with tons of cheap bodies (approx 200 models in a 2000 points list, sometimes even more), almost no shooting, good in melee and decent in the psychic phase thanks to the weirdboyz spam. If you play footsloggers units of 30 are not too big, always bring them in their max size. Drukhari instead are very fast and have a good shooting, harlequins also add some psychic phase abilities and some decent close combat units.
Both armies can have many other different units and styles but the most rewarding ones are the green tide for the orks and the vehicles spam for drukhari with tons of poisoned shots and lances, eventually backed up by harlies who are very fast too and have good synergies with drukhari.
Orks are my biggest 40k love, I started playing them in 3rd edition and even in 7th I had a lot of fun with them, while I played dark eldar only since 7th edition, but right now I have to admit that orks are very boring to play at competitive levels, I really prefer drukhari in this edition and I will probably play them instead of orks until the green skins codex comes out.
3 Meganobz (2 killsaws ea.) 189
8 Nobz (4 sluggas, 4 choppas, 4 big choppas, 3 ammo runts) 184
8 Nobz (4 sluggas, 4 choppas, 4 big choppas, 3 ammo runts) 184
Trukk (big shoota) 82
Trukk (big shoota) 82
So this would be my idea of a mechanized list. It Jumps the Meganobz turn one somewhere decent while the Nobz mobs are in the Trukks blasting up the field. When their Trukks get dead Weirdboy can Jump 'em. The nice thing about Meganobz is that they draw those AT weapons away from the Trukks and walkers.
Stormboyz x 20 Nob Stormboyz x 20 Nob DeffKoptas x 2 Bomms Big Shootas
VANGUARD DETACHMENT:
HQS:
Weirdboy, Warpath
ELITES:
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
First Opponent was the Chaos Daemon Exalted flamer spam list with horrors and a bunch of other characters, was kind of fun that i got to go first Game was very close but in the end the Orkz pulled out a minor victory 10 to 7, had 1 more turn happened it would have switched to 12 to 6 but we ran late because 2 horde armies, go figure.
Second game was against a Chaos Vehicle spam list, literally 4 infantry models 2 daemon princes and nothing else but vehicles. It was the game where you get points based on the power level of units you kill. The Orkz pulled out a Major victory, but holy crap, I have no idea how to deal with vehicles. Maybe get rid of the Deff Koptas and buy some BC or PKs for the Kommandos. As it was I managed to kill a Daemon Prince, 3 Vehicles and 3 Obliterators while only losing some Stormboyz and my Big Mek warlord.
Final game was unfortunately a major victory for me. Raven Guard primaris marines with the little trick of putting out ridiculous dakka with the 1 squad. We only managed to get to the bottom of turn 2 before the game was called since he had a family emergency, honestly though I was going to get a crushing victory anyway. Bottom of turn 2 I had over 130 Models on his door step.
So final thoughts: Kommandos in Max squads actually work pretty well, don't be shy on throwing that command point reroll out when you need it. I was getting about 60% of my charges off with normal reroll and the occasional command point reroll. The look of horror on your opponents face when you have 90 Kommandos and 30 boyz show up 9 inches away from his lines is priceless, my opponents were wasting a lot of time/effort shooting the Stormboyz supported by the kFF Big Mek and completely forgot I had so much infantry in reserve.
Deff Koptas let me down across the board, bombs failed in my two full games and they were glorified big shoota platforms, occasionally getting into assault to eat overwatch.
Weirdboyz: still amazing, my opponent commented on them needing a nerf
Big Mek w/KFF: Worth the points if only to help deliver those stormboyz
Boyz: Heavy hitters of my list, I would buff with Warpath and destroy everything....except bigger vehicles
Overall, a great time. Still stinks we are forced into a green tide list but at least this is a variant that works.
Stormboyz x 20 Nob
Stormboyz x 20 Nob
DeffKoptas x 2 Bomms Big Shootas
VANGUARD DETACHMENT:
HQS:
Weirdboy, Warpath
ELITES:
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
Kommandos x 15 Nob an 2 Burnas
First Opponent was the Chaos Daemon Exalted flamer spam list with horrors and a bunch of other characters, was kind of fun that i got to go first Game was very close but in the end the Orkz pulled out a minor victory 10 to 7, had 1 more turn happened it would have switched to 12 to 6 but we ran late because 2 horde armies, go figure.
Second game was against a Chaos Vehicle spam list, literally 4 infantry models 2 daemon princes and nothing else but vehicles. It was the game where you get points based on the power level of units you kill. The Orkz pulled out a Major victory, but holy crap, I have no idea how to deal with vehicles. Maybe get rid of the Deff Koptas and buy some BC or PKs for the Kommandos. As it was I managed to kill a Daemon Prince, 3 Vehicles and 3 Obliterators while only losing some Stormboyz and my Big Mek warlord.
Final game was unfortunately a major victory for me. Raven Guard primaris marines with the little trick of putting out ridiculous dakka with the 1 squad. We only managed to get to the bottom of turn 2 before the game was called since he had a family emergency, honestly though I was going to get a crushing victory anyway. Bottom of turn 2 I had over 130 Models on his door step.
So final thoughts: Kommandos in Max squads actually work pretty well, don't be shy on throwing that command point reroll out when you need it. I was getting about 60% of my charges off with normal reroll and the occasional command point reroll. The look of horror on your opponents face when you have 90 Kommandos and 30 boyz show up 9 inches away from his lines is priceless, my opponents were wasting a lot of time/effort shooting the Stormboyz supported by the kFF Big Mek and completely forgot I had so much infantry in reserve.
Deff Koptas let me down across the board, bombs failed in my two full games and they were glorified big shoota platforms, occasionally getting into assault to eat overwatch.
Weirdboyz: still amazing, my opponent commented on them needing a nerf
Big Mek w/KFF: Worth the points if only to help deliver those stormboyz
Boyz: Heavy hitters of my list, I would buff with Warpath and destroy everything....except bigger vehicles
Overall, a great time. Still stinks we are forced into a green tide list but at least this is a variant that works.
I'm a little confused by you saying you had no idea how you could kill vehicles, and then go on to say you killed 3 vehicles and a daemon prince while losing like 100 points of stormboyz lol. Thats like 900+ points of vehicles and monsters you cut through. Plus got a major victory. What vehicles did he take?
Also I wouldn't say too loudly about weirdboyz being nerfed, someone might hear you...
Though actually their powers are all low-powered versions of things that other armies get better versions of, so they can't really do -much- to a weirdboy without just removing him from the game entirely.
Good job on the trio of wins, I'm in the process of konverting some kommandos as soon as my bitz arrive in the post
I dealt with them by tying them up for the entire game in CCLOL but I still only killed a couple of them
So I had a hard time getting rid of them, but I was able to keep most of them tied up in CC which greatly helped me win because his entire army was shooty.
He brought 2 Daemon Princes, 2 Hellbrutes, 2 Forgefiends, 3 other daemon Walkers I can't think of the name.
1500 points. I brought 12 Kanz, KFF mek, Nob w/banner, 3 Dakkajets, 10 Lootas. Fought Bobby G, four asscan razorbacks, 3 devs w/lawnchair squads, one scout squad, one quad las pred.
We drew eternal war scenario five (Roll dice and tie), deployment hammer and anvil. We used a modified roll off that I lost. His turn one he moved forward, all but one dev squad in transport, he killed one or two kanz and two Lootas. My turn one I decided to use my Kanz to camp my objective. I shot an empty forward razorback for first blood (Hurray Lootas). I mispositioned my jets however, I would lose two of them turn two, and take a few wounds on Kanz. In my turn two I used my remaining jet and lootas to shoot a dev squad in cover off the board. I lost my jet, a few Lootas, and a Kan turn three. My turn three was mostly moving back to force dev squads to move up and shoot, my remaining lootas did forgettable shooting. Turn four and five I would spend removing my remaining kanz and all but one loota. Turn five I would move my characters to my objective, my opponent still without linebreaker, Orkz up 4-3. We rolled at bottom of five to decide the fate of the game. Sure enough, turn six, at which point it was time for me to concede.
Tacticswise I should have placed my jets smarter on turn one, I overcommited to a 100 point razorback, the two dakkajets I lost could have bought me a few more marine kills, though I probably would have been short a few more Kanz early. Anything that might have shot a few more devs could have bought me just a few kanz for turn six might have changed this game's outcome. My opponent may have played a bit passive turn one, expecting to castle against an onslaught of Kanz with RG and his toy boxes.
Lootas shot their points in two turns, KFF did great saves add up quick when it's on Kanz from Las and rokkitz, dakkajets had potential targets if I don't use them to tank rokkits and las shots, they would have shot huge (but didn't). If anything I almost want a redo, though I expect Lootas might not shoot soo good next time, and if I had to spread out for objectives I would have to shoot devs up fast.
What kind of weapons should we be slapping on boy mob bosses? In 7th we put power klaws on everything but now big choppas and power stabbas are looking better. I was considering power stabbas because they're so cheap - but even with how expensive klaws are the x2 strength helps out a lot against vehicles and monsters.
TillForPie wrote: What kind of weapons should we be slapping on boy mob bosses? In 7th we put power klaws on everything but now big choppas and power stabbas are looking better. I was considering power stabbas because they're so cheap - but even with how expensive klaws are the x2 strength helps out a lot against vehicles and monsters.
I'm guessing you mean Boss Nobs in boyz squads? Because in that case they only have access to Choppy Weapons which only include Power Klaws and Big Choppas. For me, the Big Choppa is a lot more attractive since its cheaper and effective against the majority of targets, and the PK is better served on a platform like a Warboss. If you have the spare points its not a bad call to upgrade to a PK but more often than not I feel like the Big Choppa is more ideal.
TillForPie wrote: x2 strength helps out a lot against vehicles and monsters.
There's no universal answer. Currently, 25 pt power klaws are quite overpriced and are not really needed to kill anything t7 and below because boyz allready chop pretty hard if you buff them wih extra attacks or +1 to hit. However, klaws start to come in handy vs t8 enemies where you go from wounding on 5+ to wounding on 3+ and getting a -3 rend. You miss more often however and still don't do enough but it's at least something. I would expect a pk nob to deal around 2 wounds to something like an imperial knight. It's not stellar but you got to kill it somehow anywayz.
Rismonite wrote: 1500 points. I brought 12 Kanz, KFF mek, Nob w/banner, 3 Dakkajets, 10 Lootas. Fought Bobby G, four asscan razorbacks, 3 devs w/lawnchair squads, one scout squad, one quad las pred.
We drew eternal war scenario five (Roll dice and tie), deployment hammer and anvil. We used a modified roll off that I lost. His turn one he moved forward, all but one dev squad in transport, he killed one or two kanz and two Lootas. My turn one I decided to use my Kanz to camp my objective. I shot an empty forward razorback for first blood (Hurray Lootas). I mispositioned my jets however, I would lose two of them turn two, and take a few wounds on Kanz. In my turn two I used my remaining jet and lootas to shoot a dev squad in cover off the board. I lost my jet, a few Lootas, and a Kan turn three. My turn three was mostly moving back to force dev squads to move up and shoot, my remaining lootas did forgettable shooting. Turn four and five I would spend removing my remaining kanz and all but one loota. Turn five I would move my characters to my objective, my opponent still without linebreaker, Orkz up 4-3. We rolled at bottom of five to decide the fate of the game. Sure enough, turn six, at which point it was time for me to concede.
Tacticswise I should have placed my jets smarter on turn one, I overcommited to a 100 point razorback, the two dakkajets I lost could have bought me a few more marine kills, though I probably would have been short a few more Kanz early. Anything that might have shot a few more devs could have bought me just a few kanz for turn six might have changed this game's outcome. My opponent may have played a bit passive turn one, expecting to castle against an onslaught of Kanz with RG and his toy boxes.
Lootas shot their points in two turns, KFF did great saves add up quick when it's on Kanz from Las and rokkitz, dakkajets had potential targets if I don't use them to tank rokkits and las shots, they would have shot huge (but didn't). If anything I almost want a redo, though I expect Lootas might not shoot soo good next time, and if I had to spread out for objectives I would have to shoot devs up fast.
Thanks for the report!
I'm planning on fielding a similar army next game. I feel like KMK or kannons should work better with this type of army than lootaz, because you already have tons of T5-6 stuff with multiple wounds, so lascannons and plasma can only shoot kanz or jets or big gunz/mek gunz.
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TillForPie wrote: What kind of weapons should we be slapping on boy mob bosses? In 7th we put power klaws on everything but now big choppas and power stabbas are looking better. I was considering power stabbas because they're so cheap - but even with how expensive klaws are the x2 strength helps out a lot against vehicles and monsters.
Without buffs you only have 3 attacks on that klaw hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+. The chance of missing most or all of those attacks is pretty high.
Against vehicles or monsters d3 damage is not helping at all. Best case you get 3d3 damage, so around 6 damage. More likely is doing d3 damage once, which doesn't actually hurt anything that won't be killed by huge amounts of boyz anyways.
I've had decent success with nobz units that were equipped with two PKs and buffed by a Waaagh! banner, but for that kind of points I could have fielded a unit with all big choppas instead.
If you're taking banner nobz, I like the Klaws to pack that extra punch against hard-to-wound targets. They still do a fair amount of killing, and the AP is really important in some matchups.
Without a nearby banner nob, I'd either use Big Choppas or just leave them bare.
I find the Power Klaws clutch in dealing wounds to vehicles. Or my opponents are just lucky with the 4+ instead of the 6+.
My tourny lists biggest weakness is Vehicles, but I just can't justify spending 25pts on a PK that only does up to 3 damage a turn. Big Choppas I reserved for my 2 Boyz units and I left every other nob naked. I am sure I could have done better scrapping the Koptas for Big Choppas on all the Kommandos though.
v0iddrgn wrote: I guess Hastings has just dropped a hint that Orks are coming sooner rather than later (seen on BOLS).
where is that? I have a feeling they are close maybe one of the last two unannounced codex this year. Still not out till November/December though. I'm kinda glad we are not one of the first few codex becuase they need to adjust quite a bit with orks.
v0iddrgn wrote: I guess Hastings has just dropped a hint that Orks are coming sooner rather than later (seen on BOLS).
where is that? I have a feeling they are close maybe one of the last two unannounced codex this year. Still not out till November/December though. I'm kinda glad we are not one of the first few codex becuase they need to adjust quite a bit with orks.
"Soon" doesn't really mean anything, because it's subjective AF.
I mean a GW rep commented in Facebook like a month ago that the Thousand Sons are getting their codex "very soon". Still it hasn't even been announced.
Played a shooty Ork list last weekend at a tourney and was suitably impressed with them. The combination of Flash Gitz in trukks, led by Baddrukk, Dakkajets and tankbustas in trukks works well. I had only one of each, but guess multiple units work wonders. The trukks give them the durabilty they need whilst not being overexpensive as Wagons are.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played a shooty Ork list last weekend at a tourney and was suitably impressed with them. The combination of Flash Gitz in trukks, led by Baddrukk, Dakkajets and tankbustas in trukks works well. I had only one of each, but guess multiple units work wonders. The trukks give them the durabilty they need whilst not being overexpensive as Wagons are.
I use Flash Gitz and the Dakkajet in my list. All of my opponents comment on how impressive these units are. I don't see why the fact that FG have to stay still is such a big problem once you reach a suitable place for them to use their good BS?
I use Flash Gitz and the Dakkajet in my list. All of my opponents comment on how impressive these units are. I don't see why the fact that FG have to stay still is such a big problem once you reach a suitable place for them to use their good BS?
Just park them somewhere in their trukk/mobile bunker and blast away. Altough I find they are quite reliable shooting on a 5+ as well. The reroll from the runts as well as 1's from Baddrukk (if not in the trukk) has a big effect. And their high-powered shots can deal some damage to most units.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played a shooty Ork list last weekend at a tourney and was suitably impressed with them. The combination of Flash Gitz in trukks, led by Baddrukk, Dakkajets and tankbustas in trukks works well. I had only one of each, but guess multiple units work wonders. The trukks give them the durabilty they need whilst not being overexpensive as Wagons are.
I use Flash Gitz and the Dakkajet in my list. All of my opponents comment on how impressive these units are. I don't see why the fact that FG have to stay still is such a big problem once you reach a suitable place for them to use their good BS?
They still have a BS of 4+, so they are regular orks while moving. Regular orks with a 3 shots S5 AP-2 weapon.
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Why do people in this thread keep posting that kanz are S7? They are S5 base and kan klaws are now +3. This makes them S8 unless I'm missing something.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Played a shooty Ork list last weekend at a tourney and was suitably impressed with them. The combination of Flash Gitz in trukks, led by Baddrukk, Dakkajets and tankbustas in trukks works well. I had only one of each, but guess multiple units work wonders. The trukks give them the durabilty they need whilst not being overexpensive as Wagons are.
I use Flash Gitz and the Dakkajet in my list. All of my opponents comment on how impressive these units are. I don't see why the fact that FG have to stay still is such a big problem once you reach a suitable place for them to use their good BS?
They still have a BS of 4+, so they are regular orks while moving. Regular orks with a 3 shots S5 AP-2 weapon.
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Why do people in this thread keep posting that kanz are S7? They are S5 base and kan klaws are now +3. This makes them S8 unless I'm missing something.
I think it's a holdover from the previous edition where Kanz got hit with the Nerf bat since that's what Kan klaws were. They were only S7 AP2.
T8 and 25W is a solid deal for 250ish points. You get either the best strength gun we have or an asscan in steroids, at grot shooting, which is the best shooting. It's even decent at combat and carries 12 dudes.
The supa skorcha is cool but you lose a lot of durability for less range, less transport for not that much less cost.
Maybe in pairs, but if I had to pick one the tank is a better center piece.
v0iddrgn wrote: I guess Hastings has just dropped a hint that Orks are coming sooner rather than later (seen on BOLS).
where is that? I have a feeling they are close maybe one of the last two unannounced codex this year. Still not out till November/December though. I'm kinda glad we are not one of the first few codex becuase they need to adjust quite a bit with orks.
v0iddrgn wrote: I guess Hastings has just dropped a hint that Orks are coming sooner rather than later (seen on BOLS).
where is that? I have a feeling they are close maybe one of the last two unannounced codex this year. Still not out till November/December though. I'm kinda glad we are not one of the first few codex becuase they need to adjust quite a bit with orks.
JohnU wrote: T8 and 25W is a solid deal for 250ish points. You get either the best strength gun we have or an asscan in steroids, at grot shooting, which is the best shooting. It's even decent at combat and carries 12 dudes.
The supa skorcha is cool but you lose a lot of durability for less range, less transport for not that much less cost.
Maybe in pairs, but if I had to pick one the tank is a better center piece.
The Giga shoots is literally comparable to a twin ass cannon and is probably worse. If ur gonna choose one go with the kill bursts or the skorcha big trakk.
JohnU wrote: T8 and 25W is a solid deal for 250ish points. You get either the best strength gun we have or an asscan in steroids, at grot shooting, which is the best shooting. It's even decent at combat and carries 12 dudes.
The supa skorcha is cool but you lose a lot of durability for less range, less transport for not that much less cost.
Maybe in pairs, but if I had to pick one the tank is a better center piece.
The Giga shoots is literally comparable to a twin ass cannon and is probably worse. If ur gonna choose one go with the kill bursts or the skorcha big trakk.
I know it's a typo but now I can't stop imagining the orks weaponizing their own farts just to piss off the imperials.
JohnU wrote: T8 and 25W is a solid deal for 250ish points. You get either the best strength gun we have or an asscan in steroids, at grot shooting, which is the best shooting. It's even decent at combat and carries 12 dudes.
The supa skorcha is cool but you lose a lot of durability for less range, less transport for not that much less cost.
Maybe in pairs, but if I had to pick one the tank is a better center piece.
The Giga shoots is literally comparable to a twin ass cannon and is probably worse. If ur gonna choose one go with the kill bursts or the skorcha big trakk.
But which would you pick, the kill tank or the skorcha big trakk? You kinda answered my question with both of the answers lol.
JohnU wrote: T8 and 25W is a solid deal for 250ish points. You get either the best strength gun we have or an asscan in steroids, at grot shooting, which is the best shooting. It's even decent at combat and carries 12 dudes.
The supa skorcha is cool but you lose a lot of durability for less range, less transport for not that much less cost.
Maybe in pairs, but if I had to pick one the tank is a better center piece.
The Giga shoots is literally comparable to a twin ass cannon and is probably worse. If ur gonna choose one go with the kill bursts or the skorcha big trakk.
But which would you pick, the kill tank or the skorcha big trakk? You kinda answered my question with both of the answers lol.
From a competitive standpoint it's hard to tell which one is better. Personally I like the kill tank. I think that's how orks "should" be played. It's up to u
JohnU wrote:The kill tank, personally. You don't get a gun that powerful in the Index.
Is a good point. Though the index has little in the way of good shooting units in general!
Dr.Duck wrote:
From a competitive standpoint it's hard to tell which one is better. Personally I like the kill tank. I think that's how orks "should" be played. It's up to u
I only really play friendly games with a group of friends, so not really "competitive", but I know what you mean. And I can agree with what you say about how Orks should be played
Toxxic wrote:Or both of them. That's what I do
Haha, maybe eventually! But just one or the other for now
Looking at some interesting loadouts for my Kill Tank ..
One ..Bursta + 3x twin linked Big Shootas (Heavy Duty AT + a Punisher Cannon eq) ( I am leaning heavy to this one)
Two ..Twin Ass Can eq +a punisher cannon equive ( so many bullets)
Originally I thought rokkit Racks But the cost vs return ( average 3 damge per turn for the pair seemed meh)
Cant see wasting Skorchas on this with its BS 4+ as oppsed to BS 5+
Normally i would go for a pair of rokkits but that sweet 48" of the giga shoota does not really pair well with it.
I`m working on scratchbuilding a killtank and will absolutely go for the giga shoota.
Think i gonna have to magnetise the weapons. Or simply go for the rule of cool und just give it all the weapons i can get. You can always say the unused ones are part of the giga shoota.
If i am not mistaken the killtank, otherwise than the battle waggon, has not been FAQ`d (yet) and still gives his passengers the mobile fortress rule because of the hang on rule?
Which means he can move and lootas inside can still hit on 6+?
But i think other modifiers still overrule the vixed value of 6+ to hit so shooting on flyers would make it a 7+, correct?
Grotrebel wrote: Normally i would go for a pair of rokkits but that sweet 48" of the giga shoota does not really pair well with it.
I`m working on scratchbuilding a killtank and will absolutely go for the giga shoota.
Think i gonna have to magnetise the weapons. Or simply go for the rule of cool und just give it all the weapons i can get. You can always say the unused ones are part of the giga shoota.
If i am not mistaken the killtank, otherwise than the battle waggon, has not been FAQ`d (yet) and still gives his passengers the mobile fortress rule because of the hang on rule?
Which means he can move and lootas inside can still hit on 6+?
But i think other modifiers still overrule the vixed value of 6+ to hit so shooting on flyers would make it a 7+, correct?
Well... they can only ever hit on a 6+ at best, but I never considered modifiers. I thought Mobile Fortress was ruled as not applying to the unit inside the tank, so if the tank moves then units inside would get a +1 modifier and 7+ for Orks... Making kill tanks (and battlewagons) really bad transports. Still ok for tanks though. I might be wrong, I can't remember where I read that.
How come you choose the gigashoota? Seems opinions are split as to which weapon is better, the gigashoota or the bursta cannon.
Gigashoota:
6-36 shots
3-18 hits
2-12 wounds
1-6 dead space marines
0.5 - 3 damage off a rhino
Bursta Kannon:
2-12 shots
1-6 hits.
0.8 - 5 wounds
0.8 - 5 dead space marines
1.3 - 8 damage off a rhino
So the Giga shoota is marginally better at killing marines, but is significantly worse against vehicles. Against hordes the giga shoota becomes noticeably better than the Bursta though, but does Orks need any more anti-horde abilities?
morfydd wrote: Looking at some interesting loadouts for my Kill Tank ..
One ..Bursta + 3x twin linked Big Shootas (Heavy Duty AT + a Punisher Cannon eq) ( I am leaning heavy to this one)
Two ..Twin Ass Can eq +a punisher cannon equive ( so many bullets)
Originally I thought rokkit Racks But the cost vs return ( average 3 damge per turn for the pair seemed meh)
Cant see wasting Skorchas on this with its BS 4+ as oppsed to BS 5+
Bah I was looking at battlescribe ..and for the killtank the data is wrong sooo
Bursta Kannon + two rokkit racks+ram+Grot Rigger = 320 points
Swapping the racks for twin big shootas = 292 points ..yep since this is an anti tank rig for me rokkit racks it is I guess
Well... they can only ever hit on a 6+ at best, but I never considered modifiers. I thought Mobile Fortress was ruled as not applying to the unit inside the tank, so if the tank moves then units inside would get a +1 modifier and 7+ for Orks... Making kill tanks (and battlewagons) really bad transports. Still ok for tanks though. I might be wrong, I can't remember where I read that.
How come you choose the gigashoota? Seems opinions are split as to which weapon is better, the gigashoota or the bursta cannon.
Gigashoota:
6-36 shots
3-18 hits
2-12 wounds
1-6 dead space marines
0.5 - 3 damage off a rhino
Bursta Kannon:
2-12 shots
1-6 hits.
0.8 - 5 wounds
0.8 - 5 dead space marines
1.3 - 8 damage off a rhino
So the Giga shoota is marginally better at killing marines, but is significantly worse against vehicles. Against hordes the giga shoota becomes noticeably better than the Bursta though, but does Orks need any more anti-horde abilities?
You are right, it was ruled as not applying to passengers for the battle waggon in the index errata.
Not sure if it`s intentional for the killtank or not. It`s a lot more expensive and already degrades shooting to 6+ so it would kinda make sense to let it apply to passengers on the killtank.
Had a look in the errata and at least shooting with other modifiers does not work:
Q: If an ability instructs me to resolve an attack with a different characteristic (e.g. a Culexus Assassin’s Etherium ability) does this happen before or after any other modifiers that also apply to that characteristic (e.g. the Drukhari Serpentin Combat Drug)?
A: When resolving such an attack, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers to that new value.
So moving the killtank would not modify the 6+ to hit as long as they don`t FAQ this.
But shooting on flyers for example would still modify it to a 7+.
Main reason for the giga shoota is that i wanna scratch the killtank by myself and make it look like a giant battleship on wheels.
And i want guns. A lot of guns. So basicly i will put as many on it as i can and play it as the giga shoota which is nothing but a lot of single guns.
True with the bursta which would probably improve my AT capabilities.
Bah I was looking at battlescribe ..and for the killtank the data is wrong sooo
Bursta Kannon + two rokkit racks+ram+Grot Rigger = 320 points
Swapping the racks for twin big shootas = 292 points ..yep since this is an anti tank rig for me rokkit racks it is I guess
Well i don`t really care about that 28 extra points but the 24" means i need to play a lot more aggressive. Twin big shootas are 36" at least.
With the 36" bursta cannon i would not think about it twice and just go for the rokkits.
Q: If an ability instructs me to resolve an attack with a different characteristic (e.g. a Culexus Assassin’s Etherium ability) does this happen before or after any other modifiers that also apply to that characteristic (e.g. the Drukhari Serpentin Combat Drug)?
A: When resolving such an attack, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers to that new value.
So moving the killtank would not modify the 6+ to hit as long as they don`t FAQ this.
But shooting on flyers for example would still modify it to a 7+.
The way I read that is that you set your characteristic to it's new basic value before you apply any modifiers. So in the case of the kill tank, you would set the unit's BS to 6+, and then apply any modifiers, so +1 if the tank moved and +1 if enemy is a flyer. So you would be hitting flyers on an 8+.
I do agree that it would be easier to convert a gigashoota by just adding a bunch of small guns, but then you can do the same for the Bursta kannon as it is still 2-12 shots... just instead of lots of boltguns, you could use lots of lascannons and other big turrets.
I'm not sure I agree with gretchin being red. Their best use is taking 3 min squads of 10 to fill up the troop requirement for a second battalion detachment. That's 3 CP for 90 points, and it gets you 3 slots for more characters. They're also good as filling to prevent deep strikes. Three squads of 10 can stretch pretty far in the back so the boyz can be positioned up front. For anything else, yeah, they're garbage, but calling them a bad unit because they cost the same as one of the currently most abuseable unit in the game is a little unfair.
Main reason for the giga shoota is that i wanna scratch the killtank by myself and make it look like a giant battleship on wheels.
And i want guns. A lot of guns. So basicly i will put as many on it as i can and play it as the giga shoota which is nothing but a lot of single guns.
True with the bursta which would probably improve my AT capabilities.
Bah I was looking at battlescribe ..and for the killtank the data is wrong sooo
Bursta Kannon + two rokkit racks+ram+Grot Rigger = 320 points
Swapping the racks for twin big shootas = 292 points ..yep since this is an anti tank rig for me rokkit racks it is I guess
Well i don`t really care about that 28 extra points but the 24" means i need to play a lot more aggressive. Twin big shootas are 36" at least.
With the 36" bursta cannon i would not think about it twice and just go for the rokkits.
Aye understood ..so We see two solid builds for the kill Tank ..Hrmmn I am also doing scratchbuilds ..basing the main body off of the M-3 Lee/Grant (1/32nd scale) Lots of hacking and rearranging to be done yet ..using leftover skorcha rokkits as the basis for my rokkit racks..(and an attendant gnoblars) ..The grot rigger from the Battlewagon kit...an Ork Driver ..and one of the spotter gretchin from the mek gun kits as the main gunner ..Overall I think I have a good plan ..Scratchbuilt ram lotta rivets..
I also like the idea of the two twin Big shoota gunners and the Gigashooter.Thinking using a couple of the Longer super shootas from the flyer kit as the base surrounded by several other Gunz (suriken cannon, assault cannon , and whatever else i find ).so I will be doing one like that as well...by the time they are done hopefully we will have the datasheet for the Battlefortress...
Played both Tau and Space Marines yesterday; and took the G. Squiggoth for a spin. My whole army got shot off the table by turn 2 in both games...so that was a complete waste of time. GW must really hate Orks.
Geemoney wrote: Played both Tau and Space Marines yesterday; and took the G. Squiggoth for a spin. My whole army got shot off the table by turn 2 in both games...so that was a complete waste of time. GW must really hate Orks.
Just put half of your points into Boyz. Then the rest can be whatever you like, and you will probably do decently.
I just played another Tournament with my Kommandos list and I am convinced this is the best build for Orkz this edition. it functions almost exactly like a green tide list except the enemy never knows where you are going to hit hardest until it is too late. I refined the list a bit to give it more Anti-Tank options but otherwise its a carbon copy. My opponents told me point blank they hate this list with how hard it is to stop
SemperMortis wrote: I just played another Tournament with my Kommandos list and I am convinced this is the best build for Orkz this edition. it functions almost exactly like a green tide list except the enemy never knows where you are going to hit hardest until it is too late. I refined the list a bit to give it more Anti-Tank options but otherwise its a carbon copy. My opponents told me point blank they hate this list with how hard it is to stop
Was that the list with 6x15 kommandos and 60 boyz?
Yeah, you need to bring 60-90 kommandos to consider them as the best built for orks.
I prefer 90 stormboyz to be honest but both builds have the same problem, no one really has that many kommandos or stormboyz.
Now you may proxy the kommandos by using boyz but it doesn't feel right IMHO, my kommandos are 12 heavily converted boyz, I wouldn't use regular boyz to increase their number. But if you're allowed to do so, no problem.
Blackie wrote: Yeah, you need to bring 60-90 kommandos to consider them as the best built for orks.
I prefer 90 stormboyz to be honest but both builds have the same problem, no one really has that many kommandos or stormboyz.
Now you may proxy the kommandos by using boyz but it doesn't feel right IMHO, my kommandos are 12 heavily converted boyz, I wouldn't use regular boyz to increase their number. But if you're allowed to do so, no problem.
This seems to be the best advice for Ork players: Pick a unit, any unit, and just spam it. I wonder if you could do this with, say, 100 lootas? Or 30 weirdboyz? Or 30 skorchas?
Blackie wrote: Yeah, you need to bring 60-90 kommandos to consider them as the best built for orks.
I prefer 90 stormboyz to be honest but both builds have the same problem, no one really has that many kommandos or stormboyz.
Now you may proxy the kommandos by using boyz but it doesn't feel right IMHO, my kommandos are 12 heavily converted boyz, I wouldn't use regular boyz to increase their number. But if you're allowed to do so, no problem.
This seems to be the best advice for Ork players: Pick a unit, any unit, and just spam it. I wonder if you could do this with, say, 100 lootas? Or 30 weirdboyz? Or 30 skorchas?
Well squig hounds basically negate their awful morale so they'd have some staying power compared to 7th. Still don't think it's a good idea but you could field 300 of these buggers for 900 points and only lose D3 to morale in each squad. They'd never be able to kill anything since all they have are laspistols, though.
Blackie wrote: Yeah, you need to bring 60-90 kommandos to consider them as the best built for orks.
I prefer 90 stormboyz to be honest but both builds have the same problem, no one really has that many kommandos or stormboyz.
Now you may proxy the kommandos by using boyz but it doesn't feel right IMHO, my kommandos are 12 heavily converted boyz, I wouldn't use regular boyz to increase their number. But if you're allowed to do so, no problem.
This seems to be the best advice for Ork players: Pick a unit, any unit, and just spam it. I wonder if you could do this with, say, 100 lootas? Or 30 weirdboyz? Or 30 skorchas?
I was planning on spamming dakkajets until they nerfed flyers. Maybe it's still viable though.
Blackie wrote: Yeah, you need to bring 60-90 kommandos to consider them as the best built for orks.
I prefer 90 stormboyz to be honest but both builds have the same problem, no one really has that many kommandos or stormboyz.
Now you may proxy the kommandos by using boyz but it doesn't feel right IMHO, my kommandos are 12 heavily converted boyz, I wouldn't use regular boyz to increase their number. But if you're allowed to do so, no problem.
This seems to be the best advice for Ork players: Pick a unit, any unit, and just spam it. I wonder if you could do this with, say, 100 lootas? Or 30 weirdboyz? Or 30 skorchas?
I was planning on spamming dakkajets until they nerfed flyers. Maybe it's still viable though.
I have found three (which is spam to some) to be good fire support vs 1W problems, -1 AP is just enough to make even tough looking things fail a few saves, and Hard to Hit is a good low blow to all the 'reroll all the the things' type lists. In a 2k environment I am thinking about adding a Wazbom Blastajet for it's KFF and mediocre firepower. I have found my Dakkajets are vulnerable targets so a 5++ might help. If you are going to bring dakkajets, at least in this addition, try to bring a tankbusta-truck element protected by it's own Big Mek Biker with KFF as well. This was you get get that t6 10+ wound saturation that is too tough for enemy small arms and a semi inefficient waste of lascannon shots otherwise. Still, all your gunz should be aimed at high damage weaponz first.
@Jim - I brought 11 Lootas to a 1500 point game the other day and the unit wasn't shot off the table until turn six. I am sorry that you brought 100 and they were shot off the board by turn three. Ork law states that if you bring 111 Lootas next game they will make it until turn 66, try it.
Played my first ever game with Orks last night, was exactly as fun as I was expecting. Mass boyz rolling buckets of dice is what drew me back to 40k, just looks cool on the table.
I played vs a mates Grey Knight army and it was pretty brutal both ways. Thing that swung it though was his Stormraven - that pumps out so many shots it's ridiculous. I was able to charge it with about 16 Stormboyz on turn 4, only for them to bounce and do just 3 wounds. What's our go to unit for dealing with these things?
My other question is is it worth taking special weapons in boyz mobs? I was running 3 big shootas in both big boyz mobs but they seem fairly eh. Had a look in the OP but wasn't mentioned in the unit guide.
cheesedupree wrote: Played my first ever game with Orks last night, was exactly as fun as I was expecting. Mass boyz rolling buckets of dice is what drew me back to 40k, just looks cool on the table.
I played vs a mates Grey Knight army and it was pretty brutal both ways. Thing that swung it though was his Stormraven - that pumps out so many shots it's ridiculous. I was able to charge it with about 16 Stormboyz on turn 4, only for them to bounce and do just 3 wounds. What's our go to unit for dealing with these things?
My other question is is it worth taking special weapons in boyz mobs? I was running 3 big shootas in both big boyz mobs but they seem fairly eh. Had a look in the OP but wasn't mentioned in the unit guide.
Try charging it with 64 storm boys next time, you'll likely do about 12 wounds then
I've got it, teleport stormboys within 9". Make the charge and pile in, go base to base so it can't pivot.
It'll have to hover next turn and you'll be able to charge it with everything.
No thanks needed buddy, but you're welcome anyway.
L0adedDice wrote: I've got it, teleport stormboys within 9". Make the charge and pile in, go base to base so it can't pivot.
It'll have to hover next turn and you'll be able to charge it with everything.
No thanks needed buddy, but you're welcome anyway.
My other question is is it worth taking special weapons in boyz mobs? I was running 3 big shootas in both big boyz mobs but they seem fairly eh. Had a look in the OP but wasn't mentioned in the unit guide.
I've never equipped my boyz with special weapons, since they're not cheap and orks shooting is terrible. 3 big shootas, the cheapest option, is 18 points and if you have more than a mob (which you certainly do) spamming special weapons becomes very expensive. 3 rokkits are 36 points for some shots that don't do anything anyway. I always keep the boyz as cheap as possible, recently even cutting the pk in favor of the big choppa. Spare the points and field another unit.
L0adedDice wrote: I've got it, teleport stormboys within 9". Make the charge and pile in, go base to base so it can't pivot.
It'll have to hover next turn and you'll be able to charge it with everything.
No thanks needed buddy, but you're welcome anyway.
Stormboyz cannot be jumped
Why not? They are Ork Infantry. They have the Ork faction keyword and the infantry keyword, they just also have the jump pack keyword. Da Jump doesn't specify that the Infantry cannot have other keywords. If this were true you couldn't Jump characters, Gretchin, Boyz, etc.
cheesedupree wrote: Played my first ever game with Orks last night, was exactly as fun as I was expecting. Mass boyz rolling buckets of dice is what drew me back to 40k, just looks cool on the table.
I played vs a mates Grey Knight army and it was pretty brutal both ways. Thing that swung it though was his Stormraven - that pumps out so many shots it's ridiculous. I was able to charge it with about 16 Stormboyz on turn 4, only for them to bounce and do just 3 wounds. What's our go to unit for dealing with these things?
My other question is is it worth taking special weapons in boyz mobs? I was running 3 big shootas in both big boyz mobs but they seem fairly eh. Had a look in the OP but wasn't mentioned in the unit guide.
There are situations where special weapons are worth it in boy mobs, but in general they are not worth it. In general you want to advance your boyz every turn.
Our go to strategy for dealing with stormravens is to ignore it, kill his ground troops, and secure objectives. It is surprisingly effective.
Regarding Stormboyz, I am thinking of running them in six small squads of five instead of a thirty man strong ork blob.
Since the Nobs are free, it is the same prize; you only have to pay for the extra Big Shoppas and they are easily worth the points. Using BOSS ZAGSTRUK to avoid losing to morale. He is a descent character so not so much points wasted there.
This gives the opponent a hard time, prioritize targets, most often either overkill or only killing some boyz, leaving the Nob.
One drawback is of course that you for sure will not go first, but you almost never do when playing orks anyway. Also maybe not optimal then playing kill-point mission.
Anyone that has tried to run the Stromboyz like this?
The idea with larger squads is to get fewer drops and to get easier access to buffs. Also, you're getting less damage vs aoe attacks like exploding vehicles. You could try smaller squads and see how it goes. Not sure that more nobz are enough to justify the loss of this benefits in larger games.
In theory though more small squads are slightly more durable to shooting, and morale (though this isn't a big deal). As there will be more wasted shots. With split fire this isn't as big an advantage as it used to be, but a squad of 30 will eat all the wounds it takes, 6 squads of 5 likely ignore a couple of wounds.
Another possible advantage could be filling out detachments (3 squads of 10 for instance fill out an outrider detachment, 1 squad of 30 needs 2 more choices, same is true if you are looking at a brigade.)
The biggest downside to going down to say 5 man squads is overwatch, it is far more likely that you will lose entire squads to overwatch when they are smaller, and if you are trying to charge 30 models into a single target, this could result in taking overwatch multiple times.
It's a little more risky that way, just because of morale. And once you reach close combat, you'll only have a single round of overwatch to suffer, and you're more likely to be able to remove casualties from the squad (whether overwatch or their special rule) that might not've been able to get engaged. I tried MSU stormboyz, but ultimately the bigger blob just worked better for me in practice.
I would say Mek Guns because they are somewhat durable and fairly cheap (a KMK is ~3 lootas in cost) Both average about 2 hits. The KMK has better strength, damage output, and AP. It also has 6 T5 5+ save wounds (not counting grots, which are immune to targeting at range, which can help claim objectives if the gun dies.) vs 3 T4 6+ save wounds.
A single KMK is ~2 flash gits.in cost, and has better range, and durability.
Breng77 wrote: I would say Mek Guns because they are somewhat durable and fairly cheap (a KMK is ~3 lootas in cost) Both average about 2 hits. The KMK has better strength, damage output, and AP. It also has 6 T5 5+ save wounds (not counting grots, which are immune to targeting at range, which can help claim objectives if the gun dies.) vs 3 T4 6+ save wounds.
A single KMK is ~2 flash gits.in cost, and has better range, and durability.
I've had a bit of success with lootas when fielding foot sloggers otherwise, due to target saturation.
Most anti-infantry weapons also tend to have short ranges and lootaz are slightly more resilient to deep strikers than mek gunz, though not much.
I just bought a really nice MAWB converted from an AoS Boss (with a freakin' assault cannon pegleg!), which now gives me a regular Warboss and a MAWB as my HQ options for the time being. Warboss WYSIWYG has a PK, MAWB WYSIWYG has a BC (a really, really big axe).
I plan on probably running both in my ~1000pt army. One would accompany Trukk Boyz and rush up the table with bikes and Stormboyz while the other will slog up with a full blob of 30 Boyz. Which Boss should go where, given their WYSIWYGcc loadouts?
Or, though I suspect the answer will be a resounding 'No', could/should I run this sufficiently large MAWB as Ghaz?
Can imagine the stormboys in multiple small squads have a light advantage in maelstrom games to get victory points.
To bad they can`t deepstrike anymore.
As for the comparison of lootas, mek guns and flash gits it`s hard to tell.
Each has it`s pros and cons and it depends on the army list.
Overall they all are a bit expensive but since we have to deal with it for the moment let`s just take what we get.
Lootas have a nice range but even in cover die fast if the enemy gets some firepower into them.
You can put them in a vehicle, but that adds more point costs and the better the vehicle / protection, the more expensive it get`s.
Maybe an plasma obliterator but thats also almost 200 points but at least pulls out some nice S8 shots. Has even ork-BS, yay!
With rerolls they can put out a good load of S7 hits and with 48" you can place them very passive to avoid most of the enemy fire.
Mek guns have awesome models, fun rules and can camp on backyard objectives.
But without other stuff to shield them they have to be aware of deepstriking stuff.
At least the grot gunners are safe objective campers as long as there are guns around but that`s a job a barabones mek can also handle. (Which he did fine for me and the 20 points are no big deal) Plus normally he has something to repair around.
Flash gits are really cool but their battle waggon makes them also expensive. Footslogging they can get some protection from ammo runts but if you get in 24" they will get some fire.
Each way a KFF mek helps them a lot.
They do a decent job for me together with tankbustas in a battlewaggon.
Luckily they survive some time because my poor Gorkanaut gets most of the AT weapons before he sees any CC and get some shooting even after the waggon gets destroyed as well.
They were real beasts in my second to last game were my KFF saved each LasCa shot in the entiry game and waggon, tankbustas and flash gits killed 1/3 of my enemys army.
Perform great in blowing out marines in cover but that 6+ save is a real pain in the ass when waggon and ammorunts are gone.
I just bought a really nice MAWB converted from an AoS Boss (with a freakin' assault cannon pegleg!), which now gives me a regular Warboss and a MAWB as my HQ options for the time being. Warboss WYSIWYG has a PK, MAWB WYSIWYG has a BC (a really, really big axe).
I plan on probably running both in my ~1000pt army. One would accompany Trukk Boyz and rush up the table with bikes and Stormboyz while the other will slog up with a full blob of 30 Boyz. Which Boss should go where, given their WYSIWYGcc loadouts?
Or, though I suspect the answer will be a resounding 'No', could/should I run this sufficiently large MAWB as Ghaz?
Orruk megaboss?
Thats the one i used and that big choppa is real huge. Gave it to a bika nob and equipped himself with kombirokkits and claw.
Twice the points of my big choppa WB that gives the boys the same buff but at least he has twice the style as well.
Well, why not play it as Ghaz, if you use the same modell it`s larger than Ghaz.
Depends if you go on a WYSIWYG tournament with strict rules or just play some fun games in your lokal store / with buddies.
Sure you need both of them?
Cause there can only be one big boss as we all know.
KommissarKiln wrote: I just bought a really nice MAWB converted from an AoS Boss (with a freakin' assault cannon pegleg!), which now gives me a regular Warboss and a MAWB as my HQ options for the time being. Warboss WYSIWYG has a PK, MAWB WYSIWYG has a BC (a really, really big axe).
I plan on probably running both in my ~1000pt army. One would accompany Trukk Boyz and rush up the table with bikes and Stormboyz while the other will slog up with a full blob of 30 Boyz. Which Boss should go where, given their WYSIWYGcc loadouts?
Or, though I suspect the answer will be a resounding 'No', could/should I run this sufficiently large MAWB as Ghaz?
I would definitely run him as Ghaz! Much better than a vanilla MAWB in rules terms, more awesome looking, easily identifiable on the battlefield, and a legit GW model to boot! Any chance you can fit a weirdboy in to fling Ghaz do the front?
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
I dont think alot of people realize how bad hit modifiers hurt orks. When a marine shoots a flyer they experience a 25% drop in hits (25% drop in total damage dealt), When orks shoot af flyers they experience a 50% drop in hits (50% drop in total damage dealt).
Flyers are significantly harder to kill while remaining points effective for many factions; Its pretty much impossible for orks. Most of the answers involve spamming heavy weapons or some other form of high damage output flyer, which orks really dont have. A single DakkaJet is equipped with what is essentially a (strictly worse) twin assault cannon. And it takes 84 Lootas worth of shots (478 pts worth over 3 turns) to shoot a Storm Raven.
There is no points efficient way to deal with flyers, you either ignore it which is hard to do given how much damage it deals or you can try to dump a ton of resources into it and pray you get lucky everywhere else.
Maybe Mek guns might be a better prospect but I doubt it.
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
You ignore the flyer, kill his other stuff, and secure objectives. It is the only way, and it will win you the game more often than not. Shooting at a stormraven will loose you the game more often than not.
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
You ignore the flyer, kill his other stuff, and secure objectives. It is the only way, and it will win you the game more often than not. Shooting at a stormraven will loose you the game more often than not.
Yep, learned that the hard way. Ended up basically wasting a turn of shooting that would have been better off shot elsewhere.
How viable is ignoring a stormraven though? They've got huge amounts of dakka to put out, and can basically run the board. Seems like a bad move.
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
You ignore the flyer, kill his other stuff, and secure objectives. It is the only way, and it will win you the game more often than not. Shooting at a stormraven will loose you the game more often than not.
Yep, learned that the hard way. Ended up basically wasting a turn of shooting that would have been better off shot elsewhere.
How viable is ignoring a stormraven though? They've got huge amounts of dakka to put out, and can basically run the board. Seems like a bad move.
Unless you have around 30-35 tankbustas and go first it is the ONLY viable thing to do. Kill the rest of his army, secure objectives, win the game.
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
I dont think alot of people realize how bad hit modifiers hurt orks. When a marine shoots a flyer they experience a 25% drop in hits (25% drop in total damage dealt), When orks shoot af flyers they experience a 50% drop in hits (50% drop in total damage dealt).
Flyers are significantly harder to kill while remaining points effective for many factions; Its pretty much impossible for orks. Most of the answers involve spamming heavy weapons or some other form of high damage output flyer, which orks really dont have. A single DakkaJet is equipped with what is essentially a (strictly worse) twin assault cannon. And it takes 84 Lootas worth of shots (478 pts worth over 3 turns) to shoot a Storm Raven.
There is no points efficient way to deal with flyers, you either ignore it which is hard to do given how much damage it deals or you can try to dump a ton of resources into it and pray you get lucky everywhere else.
Maybe Mek guns might be a better prospect but I doubt it.
It's not only flyers, but now that gw is handling out "-1 to hit" like candy on many, many units, we lose half of our output. It is especially sad because our shooting units are not costed appropriately at BS5+, much, much less at BS6+.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to write GW and politely ask them to lower the cost of our shooting units. I DO think they are listening, but since they don't playtest ork shooting armies they probably don't know. Please write them!
You can easilly communicate with GW using facebook - if you have an acc. Actually, even i have participated in pointing out the understrength unit exploitation so they fixed it quickly. But than my fb acc got banned cause there was no photo, so, i'm cut off there =)
koooaei wrote: You can easilly communicate with GW using facebook - if you have an acc. Actually, even i have participated in pointing out the understrength unit exploitation so they fixed it quickly. But than my fb acc got banned cause there was no photo, so, i'm cut off there =)
So has anyone had any success running Squiggoth (small, not gargantuan)?
Is it worth sticking a big gun on them, given they mostly suffer a movement penalty?
I suppose the gun can shoot without penalty while locked in combat..
JimOnMars wrote: It's not only flyers, but now that gw is handling out "-1 to hit" like candy on many, many units, we lose half of our output. It is especially sad because our shooting units are not costed appropriately at BS5+, much, much less at BS6+.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to write GW and politely ask them to lower the cost of our shooting units. I DO think they are listening, but since they don't playtest ork shooting armies they probably don't know. Please write them!
This. Last game I had a Ghostkeel dropping behind my walkers. There was no way to kill 10 wounds with a -2 hit modifier that could jump out of combat. So I simply had to ignore it and bear the three meltas jumping around me just barely out of charge range.
Luckily I got good rolls on my Big Mek' repair rolls so it didn't kill a lot.
At the very least we need a mek gun that hits on 4+ without any modifiers to handle stuff like this.
grendel083 wrote: So has anyone had any success running Squiggoth (small, not gargantuan)?
Is it worth sticking a big gun on them, given they mostly suffer a movement penalty?
I suppose the gun can shoot without penalty while locked in combat..
I believe you don't have a choice in the matter, they get a big gun stock.
grendel083 wrote: So has anyone had any success running Squiggoth (small, not gargantuan)?
Is it worth sticking a big gun on them, given they mostly suffer a movement penalty?
I suppose the gun can shoot without penalty while locked in combat..
I believe you don't have a choice in the matter, they get a big gun stock.
grendel083 wrote: So has anyone had any success running Squiggoth (small, not gargantuan)?
Is it worth sticking a big gun on them, given they mostly suffer a movement penalty?
I suppose the gun can shoot without penalty while locked in combat..
I believe you don't have a choice in the matter, they get a big gun stock.
The Squiggoth entry says it may take a big gun. Not that it must.
ajax_xaja wrote: A stormraven completely facetanked 15 tankbustas and 5 shots from a Kill Tank with Kill Bursta last night.
How have people been dealing with flyers, or stormravens in particular? Not sure we have what it takes to shoot down a flyer.
I dont think alot of people realize how bad hit modifiers hurt orks. When a marine shoots a flyer they experience a 25% drop in hits (25% drop in total damage dealt), When orks shoot af flyers they experience a 50% drop in hits (50% drop in total damage dealt).
Flyers are significantly harder to kill while remaining points effective for many factions; Its pretty much impossible for orks. Most of the answers involve spamming heavy weapons or some other form of high damage output flyer, which orks really dont have. A single DakkaJet is equipped with what is essentially a (strictly worse) twin assault cannon. And it takes 84 Lootas worth of shots (478 pts worth over 3 turns) to shoot a Storm Raven.
There is no points efficient way to deal with flyers, you either ignore it which is hard to do given how much damage it deals or you can try to dump a ton of resources into it and pray you get lucky everywhere else.
Maybe Mek guns might be a better prospect but I doubt it.
It's not only flyers, but now that gw is handling out "-1 to hit" like candy on many, many units, we lose half of our output. It is especially sad because our shooting units are not costed appropriately at BS5+, much, much less at BS6+.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to write GW and politely ask them to lower the cost of our shooting units. I DO think they are listening, but since they don't playtest ork shooting armies they probably don't know. Please write them!
Ugh, I hate that there's no real space for "shooty" ork armies at the moment. I'm really starting to feel the gap between codex armies and orks, since the majority of my meta is currently on the primaris/death guard/chaos train. Really don't want to have to buy into huge swathes of stormboyz or boyz until the codex/chapter approved drop.
Last time our dex dropped first and we got shafted...
at least this time we will be one of the "newer" dexes, so hopefully we get all the sweet sweet improvements
Hang in der Boyz! Da Mekz ar comin' an dey ben buildin' sumting big'n'stompy!
SemperMortis wrote: I just played another Tournament with my Kommandos list and I am convinced this is the best build for Orkz this edition. it functions almost exactly like a green tide list except the enemy never knows where you are going to hit hardest until it is too late. I refined the list a bit to give it more Anti-Tank options but otherwise its a carbon copy. My opponents told me point blank they hate this list with how hard it is to stop
grendel083 wrote: So has anyone had any success running Squiggoth (small, not gargantuan)?
Is it worth sticking a big gun on them, given they mostly suffer a movement penalty?
I suppose the gun can shoot without penalty while locked in combat..
I believe you don't have a choice in the matter, they get a big gun stock.
The Squiggoth entry says it may take a big gun. Not that it must.
Then you should definitely NOT take a gun on it. Remember you will only hit on a 6+ when the squig is moving. I would not take a big gun on a battlewagon even though it can move and shoot it at 5+.
Am i right in reading that you cant shunt wounds on your Mek Gun onto the crew? Seems like the faq was fairly clear in making them separate units, but I read something conflicting on reddit so just wanted to confirm.
cheesedupree wrote: Am i right in reading that you cant shunt wounds on your Mek Gun onto the crew? Seems like the faq was fairly clear in making them separate units, but I read something conflicting on reddit so just wanted to confirm.
You are correct. They are now separate units, so wounds caused by stuff like rolling 1s for KMK are inflicted on the gun itself and being shot at by enemies means you have to take it on the gun if they target it.
JimOnMars wrote: It's not only flyers, but now that gw is handling out "-1 to hit" like candy on many, many units, we lose half of our output. It is especially sad because our shooting units are not costed appropriately at BS5+, much, much less at BS6+.
The only solution I've come up with so far is to write GW and politely ask them to lower the cost of our shooting units. I DO think they are listening, but since they don't playtest ork shooting armies they probably don't know. Please write them!
This. Last game I had a Ghostkeel dropping behind my walkers. There was no way to kill 10 wounds with a -2 hit modifier that could jump out of combat. So I simply had to ignore it and bear the three meltas jumping around me just barely out of charge range.
Luckily I got good rolls on my Big Mek' repair rolls so it didn't kill a lot.
At the very least we need a mek gun that hits on 4+ without any modifiers to handle stuff like this.
In my Battlescribe, I have a unit called the Lifta Wagon with a gun called the Lifta Droppa. This seems like exactly what you need with d6 automatic hits and mortal wounds if it rolls higher than the target's strength on 2d6. Considering it has a 48" range seems like it would be effective if costly. Maybe better than just taking a kicking to the face?
cheesedupree wrote: Am i right in reading that you cant shunt wounds on your Mek Gun onto the crew? Seems like the faq was fairly clear in making them separate units, but I read something conflicting on reddit so just wanted to confirm.
You are correct. They are now separate units, so wounds caused by stuff like rolling 1s for KMK are inflicted on the gun itself and being shot at by enemies means you have to take it on the gun if they target it.
Shrapnelbait wrote: In my Battlescribe, I have a unit called the Lifta Wagon with a gun called the Lifta Droppa. This seems like exactly what you need with d6 automatic hits and mortal wounds if it rolls higher than the target's strength on 2d6. Considering it has a 48" range seems like it would be effective if costly. Maybe better than just taking a kicking to the face?
For a Ghostkeel you need about four to five shots from that 214 point gun to actually down is. Flyers have higher strength values, so it's even worse against them.
If we could get lifta droppas on 60 point mek guns, I'd agree, but the lifta wagon is simply too expensive.
Also, there should be an option available outside of forgeworld.
I've tried walker wall yesterday. It was a fun casual game - the opponent knew ahead that i'd bring a lot of walkers so that he would bring enough anti-tank weaponry to make it more fun. He plays necrons and they kinda struggle vs skew lists atm cause specialised stuff is pretty overpriced. Anywayz, he broungs some fun units.
Orks had:
KFF Big Mek with a fixer runt
Badrukk with 3 ammo runts
Banner nob
Gorkanaught
2 Deff Dreads with big shootas
3 Kanz with KMB
3 Kanz with KMB
3 Kanz with Bigshootas
Zzap gun
Zzap Gun
Kannon
Necrons had:
Overlord
Cryptekh
10 Warriors
5 carbine (? s5 that gets extra hits on 6-s to-hit) immortals
5 blaster (? s5 ap2) immortals
Spider with a twin lazcannon
Artillery ark with d3 s10 shots and a million s4 shots
3 Lazcannon destroyers
Monolith
No mission - just wanted to see the unit effectiveness in vacuum. The opponent got 1-st turn and did a couple wounds to kanz here and there and halved the gork's wounds. Orks slogged forward, shot some stuff - dealt a couple wounds to a monolith, killed 3 immortals and 1 heavy destroyer. D3 on Badrukk is great. Though, he overheated and dealt a wound to himself. Moving and shooting overheated heavy weapon is not very safe. Kanz managed to charge a monolith but 12 attacks only resulted in one successful wound. 3 damage in mellee.
Mek fixed 4 wounds to a gork. However, it still got destroyed next turn and i had to spend a CP to re-roll explosion in the middle of my army. They also killed a kanz near the monolith and one-shot a dread. Orks than proceeded to move forward. Badrukk - now stationary - shot down 2 heavy destroyers all by himself. the rest of the army finished off 2 immortals (baically, necrons didn't pass a single 4+ rp out of 4), than shot at a monolith and brought it down to 9 wounds that than got stripped away by 2 kanz and a dread. Only the banner nob'z +1 to hit helped here. Than necrons killed around 4 kanz and dealt a couple wounds to a dread. Badrukk, remaining kanz (i think around 4), dread and big gunz shot 8 wounds from a stalker - the big spider - thing and charged warriors killing 3 after RP. Necrons than shot down a kan, charged mek and dealt 3 wounds to him. Orks shot down a couple warriors, badrukk overheated for 3 mortal wounds while doing so, dealt a couple wounds to an ark in mellee and killed Cryptekh. Crons killed a couple kanz and big mek. Than orks finished off an artillery ark.
In the end necrons had an overlord, warriors and an immortal squad on the 2-d floor of a ruin and orks had a kan, a half-dead dread, half-dead banner nob, half-dead Badrukk and big gunz. Was a fun game and walkers did pretty well. Better than i had anticipated. Though, it was a fun game and necrons brought mediocre stuff, so walkers were on par.
Some insights:
- KFF is not really all that great for walkers as 3+ usually gets downgraded to 5+ or 6+ anywayz. But it's not too bad for 20 pts. Saved a couple wounds in the end.
- Mek's fixing ability is great in a walker wall list. He fixed around 10 wounds over the course of the game.
- Badrukk can be pretty effective - though he needs some time to get in position. I used Gork for the extra 3" move. It helped him to remain stationary for the rest of the game...and still happily overheat himself for 4 mortal wounds. Overall he payed off across the game.
- Kanz aren't too bad. Their shooting is passable. Their mellee is ok if you get a banner nob in position. Still overpriced and don't deal enough damage but they at least tend to survive decently enough.
- Deff dread is just really underwhelming for his points. Not fast enough, not durable enough, not shooty enough, not choppy enough. He'd be ok for 100 pts - not 130.
- Gorkanaught got focused down, so i don't know how good it really is. All i can tell is that it's shooting is very bad for it's price. 18 t8 wounds sould like a lot but it's really not when the opponent has AT.
- Big gunz are ok for points. They managed to pay off. I liked Zzap gunz more than kannonz. They look cooler. But i think they're about the same level of effectiveness. Kannon is probably better overall but Zzaps have a chance to deal 3 mortal wounds - albeit not a high one.
The fundamental problem with every Ork unit is that they are all over costed for what they do. If you compare any Ork unit to comparable units in other lists the Orks cost more and have worse statline. This is further compounded by Ork wargear costing too much or having non linear costs compared to other units.( E.g. twin big shoota is cost of (big shoota*2+2), Marine twin heavy bolter is cost of heavy bolter x2, quad heavy bolter is cost of ((heavy bolter-1)*4) WTH)
Boyz should be a pt less, Grots should be 1 to 2 pts.
Most vehicles and walkers should drop by 1/4th in cost
Big choppas should be 5 pts
Powerklaw 12 pts
killsaw 15 pts
Kustom shoota 2 pts
Normalize twin linked cost to be equal to every other faction, ie doesn't cost extra points over double base weapon cost.
All of the ranged weapons need a points decrease.
BS5+ and assault/ heavy weapons are in a special place. A bad special place, it's not so hard for an unit to get a buff that gives -2 to hit, and Orks are one of the few factions that get little to no access to bonuses to hit, coupled with BS 5+ this results in many not uncommon situations where Orks cannot hit regardless of what they roll. This makes shooting weapons much less valuable for the faction overall.
Your experience sums up mine as well Koooaei, though in my instance the KFF paid off dividends since my opponent was using melta weaponry instead.
The Deff Dred, even with skorchas for shooting (which can be counter-intuitive if you're trying to charge a unit) is fairly lucklustre. They should really give it a rule where it can advance and charge or just be affected by a Warboss' WAAAGH!.
I'm surprised to hear how effective Badrukk is though, given that I haven't used him in a game yet. Do you think he's only worth taking in a mech list?
The fundamental problem with every Ork unit is that they are all over costed for what they do. If you compare any Ork unit to comparable units in other lists the Orks cost more and have worse statline. This is further compounded by Ork wargear costing too much or having non linear costs compared to other units.( E.g. twin big shoota is cost of (big shoota*2+2), Marine twin heavy bolter is cost of heavy bolter x2, quad heavy bolter is cost of ((heavy bolter-1)*4) WTH)
Boyz should be a pt less, Grots should be 1 to 2 pts.
Most vehicles and walkers should drop by 1/4th in cost
Big choppas should be 5 pts
Powerklaw 12 pts
killsaw 15 pts
Kustom shoota 2 pts
Normalize twin linked cost to be equal to every other faction, ie doesn't cost extra points over double base weapon cost.
All of the ranged weapons need a points decrease.
BS5+ and assault/ heavy weapons are in a special place. A bad special place, it's not so hard for an unit to get a buff that gives -2 to hit, and Orks are one of the few factions that get little to no access to bonuses to hit, coupled with BS 5+ this results in many not uncommon situations where Orks cannot hit regardless of what they roll. This makes shooting weapons much less valuable for the faction overall.
You're pretty much spot on IMO, and I think as others have mentioned before, in order to address how much we're affected by negative modifiers in the game, we should get some sort of army-wide rule called "Dakka Dakka Dakka!" where it represents that our shooting is like firing a wall of lead which means we don't ignore negative modifiers to our shooting.
The fundamental problem with every Ork unit is that they are all over costed for what they do. If you compare any Ork unit to comparable units in other lists the Orks cost more and have worse statline. This is further compounded by Ork wargear costing too much or having non linear costs compared to other units.( E.g. twin big shoota is cost of (big shoota*2+2), Marine twin heavy bolter is cost of heavy bolter x2, quad heavy bolter is cost of ((heavy bolter-1)*4) WTH)
Boyz should be a pt less, Grots should be 1 to 2 pts.
Most vehicles and walkers should drop by 1/4th in cost
Big choppas should be 5 pts
Powerklaw 12 pts
killsaw 15 pts
Kustom shoota 2 pts
Normalize twin linked cost to be equal to every other faction, ie doesn't cost extra points over double base weapon cost.
All of the ranged weapons need a points decrease.
BS5+ and assault/ heavy weapons are in a special place. A bad special place, it's not so hard for an unit to get a buff that gives -2 to hit, and Orks are one of the few factions that get little to no access to bonuses to hit, coupled with BS 5+ this results in many not uncommon situations where Orks cannot hit regardless of what they roll. This makes shooting weapons much less valuable for the faction overall.
I think boyz and stormboyz are costed about right. Everything else is off, and part of that is paying for close combat stats on units that have no intent to get into CC. Weapons do need a big re-costing, they did some weird things with ork weapons. Rokkits are 12 points, and tankbustas are 5, to get the unit to be the right cost because they spam rokkits. If they wanted that unit to be 17 ppm they should have raised price on the individual orks not the weapons, then they did the opposite with Burnas where their guns are free and the orks are 17 points.
I will note that twin items are not always just 2x single gun for other faction, the difference is they tend to be that or LESS, where as orks are always >2x single gun
Big shoota = 6, twin big shoota 14
Rokkit = 12, twin rokkit = 28
Shoota = 0, kustom shoota = 4
For other factions
Marines(sisters for Multimelta, HB)
Assault cannon = 21, twin = 35
heavy bolter = 10, twin = 17
LAscannon = 25, twin = 50
Bolter = 0, twin bolter/storm = 2
Heavy Flamer = 17, twin = 34
Heavy Plasma cannon = 30, twin = 34
Multimelta = 27, twin = 54
IG Heavy bolter 8, twin 14
Heavy flamer 17, twin 30
GSC Autocannon 15, twin 33
So orks and GSC are the only armies where a twin weapon costs more than 2 of the same weapon. most cost straight double, and Marines have many that cost less than double.
Grimskul wrote: Your experience sums up mine as well Koooaei, though in my instance the KFF paid off dividends since my opponent was using melta weaponry instead.
The Deff Dred, even with skorchas for shooting (which can be counter-intuitive if you're trying to charge a unit) is fairly lucklustre. They should really give it a rule where it can advance and charge or just be affected by a Warboss' WAAAGH!.
I'm surprised to hear how effective Badrukk is though, given that I haven't used him in a game yet. Do you think he's only worth taking in a mech list?
Sure, KFF is better vs ap4. Especially if there is no cover involved - and there rarely is unless you're a defender or have deepstrike or you're really fast. And none of this applies to our walkers. It's just that the bulk of heavy weapons are either ap3 like plazmas and lazcannons or ap1 like assault cannons. Ap4 is usually met on elf weaponry or meltas. Not too rare but definitely not as common as ap3. Even so, KFF is not a waste of points if it saves at least a couple wounds across the game. And even if it doesn't it's just 20 pts, so no big deal. I don't think it's necessery for footslogging hordes though.
Deff dreads are definitely not amazing. No idea why they didn't get an attack increase like sm dreads. And they basically cost the same. Disppointing overall.
As for Badrukk, i'd not call him too effective. He can be ok in any list though. He has passable damage output and being a character with decent durabiity he can easilly slip into 95% lists without feeling out of place.
You can expect Badrukk to deal 3 damage per turn to a medium vehice from afar which is not too bad for an ork that costs < 100 pts. Statistically, if you re-roll all faied hits, he deals 3.75 pts of damage to t7 3+ armor if stationary and 2.5 while moving. Be careful with overheats though. He overheats himself up pretty quickly. He payed off for me because there were ideal targets for his shooting - necron heavy destroyers that are expensive infantry with 3 wounds and only 5++ (from cryptech). Badrukk's damage output and durability is probably still higher than that of big gun'z. Though, he can barely score more than 2 points on the battlefield while costing like 3 gunz and his 24 range is relatively short for what he wants to do, so don't expect to score more than one flag. Ammo runts can help though. Anywayz, i'd call him ok. Sometimes you just need that bit of shooting - that's why dakkajets show up. And i think Badrukk is more valuable than a Dakkajet.
The idea was that fliers, kanz and deff dreads are all weak to the same stuff and nothing cared about anti-infantry shooting which I would no doubt face since everyone was expecting me to bring boyz en masse. I also wanted to have a game to directly compare the three planes.
The game was me and a tzeench flying circus (kairos, three daemon princes, three flamers, a soul grinder and the changeling plus a few brimstones) against 3000 points of tau (three players), pretty much bringing everything the tau codex had to offer: Two commanders, two units of pathfinders, a riptide, a ghostkeel, a hammerhead with some plasma autocannon, longstrike, a stormsurge, stealth suits, crisis suits, a piranha, some kroot and fire warriors plus a couple of minor characters sprinkled everywhere.
The mission was Maelstrom: Tactical Escalation (you get mission cards equal to the turn order) and we deployed in Front-Line Assault (wedges on long table edges). Escalating front-line assault? That's what I call Waaagh!
We finished deployment first with orks in the center and deamons to the right. The tau hid all their expensive shooty stuff as far in the left corner as they could and filled all cover they had with infantry. All players agreed on using the old deployment rules, so we went first.
Turn 1, I wasn't sure how tau work in 8th, but "kill all the marker lights" has never failed me. So the burna bommer and the blitza bommer move straight into the enemy army, each one drops a bomb, each one kills 5 pathfinders. The walkers and their meks run forward, no one is within 24" of a single tau unit after moving. The Dakkajet moves close enough to one big mek to get KFF coverage. The supa-shootas and grot-gunners kill more pathfinders, the skorcha missile rack whiffs - as expected, not worth 20 points.
The daemons fly forward, Kairos smites some more pathfinders, princes kill a few fire warriors with warp bolters. The soul grinder moves towards the objective in the left part of our deployment zone.
Moral kills all the remaining pathfinders, our mission is holding the objective in the middle for two turns, currently in range for 3 kanz, a big mek, a grot oiler and a deff dread.
Enemy turn is a lot of shooting going on, they drop their two commanders behind the riptide. Terrified by what the two bommers did to their pathfinders, they try to mark the two planes with their four remaining markerlights, succeed twice on the blitza and fail on the burna. The blitza gets shot down first, explodes ( ) puts a bunch of mortal wounds on long strike, the riptide, the commanders and the kroot, while killing a unit of missile drones. Afterwards the rest of the army proceeds to take down the burna bommer, and I fail Explosive Demise, spent a CP to reroll it successfully and put 3 mortal wounds on the riptide, kroot, two units of fire warriors, one commander plus some more dead drones. The dakka jet makes some awesome KFF saves and remains almost undamaged. A ghostkeel and some stealth suits appear to take on the soul grinder, but fail miserably, not even putting a scratch into it. The ghostkeel's stealth drones capture the objective the soul grinder was supposed to take for 2VP. Crisis suits appear and shoot 3 wounds of a KMB kan, longstrike shoots two wounds off a rokkit kan. In total the two explosions did more damage than the entire tau army.
Turn 2, one big mek and a dread runs, the KMB kanz and another big mek move towards the storm surge and the two tanks, the rokkit kanz move onto the middle objective to score 2 VP for holding it two turns. With the help of a grot oiler, the big meks repairs all damage done to the kanz. The dakka jet leaves the safety of the KFF to jump right behind the warlord commander and turns it into a bullet sponge. Slay the warlord! Rokkit kanz blow up all but one crisis suit, the big mek's rokkit kills the last one. KMB kanz take 5 wounds of longstrike.
Daemons smite most of two units of fire warriors dead, Kairos holds an objective right in front of them for 1 VP.
Dread fails 8" charge on kroot. KMB kanz fail a 6" charge on the stealth suits and the piranha. Soul grinder smashes stealth drones.
The tau try to take down the dakka jet, but they fail to mark it and it survives with 2 wounds. Some big gun blows 4 wounds off a deff dread, kairos loses a bunch of wounds. They score another 2 VP for a priority mission and draw even despite getting the whipping of their life.
Turn 3, we draw two priority objectives, kill stuff in shooting phase and kill stuff in combat. In addition we need to capture the objective in the middle again, which is currently held by a unit of kanz.
The deff dreads move forward to charge the remaining three kroot, kanz move to charge piranha and stealth suits, the daemons reach the side of the tau gunline. Meks repair all damage to the walkers again.
One of the daemon princes accidentally smites all the three kroot I planned to charged with one dread. All orks shoot a bunch of wounds off longstrike, leaving him at two. The KMB kan roll two , wounding the two kanz in the rear. Daemons finish two unit of fire warriors, so only 2VP for that mission. Dakka jet kills most of a unit of fire warriors.
KMB Kanz fail charge on the hammerhead, tau overwatch rolls a ton of sixes and the stormsurge takes both wounded kanz down to 2 wounds. Deff dread gets overwatched hard (loses 6 wounds) and then fails the charge on long strike. Kairos charged the riptide, one daemon prince charges the remaining commander, one daemon prince and a flamer charge an etheral, one fireblade and four fire warriors. Soulgrinder charges ghosts and piranha. The fire warriors, the piranha and the commander's drones die, awarding us 3 VP.
Tau activate the commanders reroll aura, and they are angry. Commander and riptide disengage and start shooting. The wounded dread blows up, and I fail to realize that I can reroll the explosion dice (which I just did two turns ago), putting 3 wounds on the other dread, which then gets killed by the almost-dead longshot. The grot oiler gets killed and the big mek loses two wounds and two wounds go to the rokkit kanz. The stormsurge destroys one of the KMB kanz, and leaves the last one at 1 wound (KFF saved my rear here). Dakkajet loses his last two wounds to the surviving fire warriors.
They shoot kairos down to 3 wounds, one daemon prince gets reduced to 2 wounds by the commander it charged.
They are unable to reach any of their missions, and are forced to keep one for an objective in our deployment zone.
In turn 3 shooting does almost nothing. The banner nob charges and kills longstrike, the kanz charge the hammerhead and hit it three times, leaving it at one. The other kanz fail to charge to riptide, the soulgrinder kills the stealth suits, the daemons kill the commander, the etheral, and the riptide. Tau surrender at 12:4 VP with the Ghostkeel, the stormsurge, two fireblades, ten fire warrirors (across two units) and a hammerhead with one wound left on the table. We have 7 kanz, two big meks, the banner nob, three daemon princes, three exalted flamers, kairos and 10 brimstone horrors that got us 2VP by just sitting on an objective behind LOS blocking terrain all game.
General takeaways:
- The most relevant thing the Nob did all game was smashing a tau tank commander with the freakin' banner itself. Another kan would have added more to the unit than +1 to hit.
- Moral is not as much an issue for kanz as I thought. Even though almost all of 3000 points of tau was shooting me over two turns, I only lost one kan and always held 2CP in reserve in case I do get to take a bad moral check. Dreads and planes definitely draw fire from kanz.
- KMB is a great budget option, but against tau, there were no good targets for them. D3 damage on a single shot is not enough to kill tanks and killing single infantry models was not really worth it. If feel like they might be way better against armies that actually have infantry with saves to ignore, like marines or craftworld eldar.
- Skorchas on dreads are pretty much wasted. If I actually get within 8" of something, the dread can charge it and will most likely utterly destroy it. If not... well, it probably didn't do anything. If something is not afraid to charge the dread, it's definitely not afraid of the skorcha. I'll probably go with big shootas next time.
- Now that I've played them both, I feel like burna bommers are actually better than blitza bommers. For +2 points you get another 3 shots that hit on 4+ and Explosive demise. I deployed within 9" of the KFF but outside 6" to prevent accidents, and afterwards it was pretty easy to keep the plane within explosion distance of the enemy for at least two turns - afterwards the bombs are gone anyways. You only get the 4+ against infantry, but bombs aren't that great against anything with multiple wounds. I never felt the urge to drop blitza bombs on a vehicle for 1.5 mortal wounds. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.
- Advance your dreads until you can make a sure charge, mine never reached combat because I stopped advancing a turn too early. You also probably need three dreads to have at least one in combat.
- I would run big meks for the repairs alone, KFF is just a nice add-on. Also the rokkit launcha on the big mek was a pretty good investment.
- Two planes are probably enough for most games.
I think that bombers overperformed because tau actually decided to shoot them. It was a better idea to leave them be - at least with antitank weaponry. Because firstly, plane's damage outpt degrades drastically after the bombs are dropped, and secondly, they are dangerous to kill near your troops cause of strong explosions. It's a good idea to shoot down planes if you have 1-st turn while they're on the other side of the board and haven't dropped the cargo yet. Especially if the owner has other units nearby.
As for meks and taking rokkits on them, i'm not sure. Repairs are pretty good and you got to keep close to vehicles. And i've found walkers to be advancing for at least a couple first turns so the mek aso had to advance to be within 3". I mean rokkit might not be too bad on a character but it's definitely not a №1 priority.
I've not been around the Ork thread for a while, but Ive been spending a bit of time on the Chaos and AdMech threads due to a new project I'm starting, and with the release of the AdMEch codex I've seen some patterns that might give us some insight into the Ork codex that will (eventually) arrive.
1) Points Changes.
GW have been making alterations to points in the codex vs the index, so tweaks to weapon or unit points costs are definitly possible. Hard to predict which units they'll choose to alter, but so far they do seem to have altered the units (in admech anyway) that needed it. The changes were only minor though, but still every little helps.
2) Traits & Strategems
This is the part that makes the difference, more so than points changes. Electropriests in the AdMech index were a pretty good unit on paper, but were pointless in games because they were slow and they had zero transport options. GW didn't give admech a transport, but instead gave them two forgeworld (same as legion) strategems that allow for deepstriking or infiltrating units in exchange for CP. They also gave a couple of the forgeworlds traits that boost units in different ways, one in particular makes priests a powerful alpha strike unit.
Some of these forgeworld traits are similar to ones we've seen before in space marines and chaos, such as the Stygies trait that gives the opponent -1 to hit all units that are more than 12" away (same as Alpha Legion and ... Ravenguard, I think). Stygies is one of the ones that has the infiltrate strategem too, which is also the same as Alpha and Raven. A few slight differences, but very similar. Not all the admech forgeworld traits etc are copy pasted from other codexes, but I don't mind that some are as it gives a consistency in the rules and gives all the armies similar options but with very different units.
So, I suspect we would get something like:
Klan Stealthy : -1 to hit units more than 12" from an enemy, infiltrate one unit for 1CP
We will also likely get a "renewal" strategem, where you spend 1-2CP to remove one of your units from the board, and bring them back in at any table edge, at full strength. Chaos got one of these, and so did AdMech, and it's very Orky to have a unit spring back into the fray (though might be a bit overpowered for Boyz units).
As for the other things, I'm not sure. I could guess at some of the things that have come before, but its hard to say how it would be balanced for a horde army vs the elite lists of AdMech. Recycling big boyz squads could be a bit crazy. But still, some of the traits and strategems I've seen have made a fair bit of difference to army selection, and it's definitly something to look forward to. Could make all the difference.
Guys. Does it or does it not make sense that the Garg Squig can't carry mega armour? Considering that the regular Squiggoth can. Putting a rather sizable dent in the awesomeness that would be Ghaz stomping into battle on one in the list I'm looking at :(
koooaei wrote: I think that bombers overperformed because tau actually decided to shoot them. It was a better idea to leave them be - at least with antitank weaponry. Because firstly, plane's damage outpt degrades drastically after the bombs are dropped, and secondly, they are dangerous to kill near your troops cause of strong explosions. It's a good idea to shoot down planes if you have 1-st turn while they're on the other side of the board and haven't dropped the cargo yet. Especially if the owner has other units nearby.
Having your own troops nearby is easily avoided. Each bommer took out 10 pathfinders in cover (the blitza got some help from the dakka jet), and would have done the same to the units of fire warriors on their objectives, while the kanz would only fire four shots each and none of the daemons besides Kairos could be targeted due to all of them being characters. In addition many guns they used to take down the bommers were not in ranged to shoot anything else, so I think shooting them was the best they could do. If they had not aimed their anti-tank at the planes as well they would not have killed anything during their first turn.
I think the tau player's only mistake was not to deploy a commander with the other stuff so they couldn't activate their re-roll aura in turn one - they could not have known that the blitza bommer would explode (only on 6+), kill the commander's drones and leave it open for assassination by the dakka jet.
As for meks and taking rokkits on them, i'm not sure. Repairs are pretty good and you got to keep close to vehicles. And i've found walkers to be advancing for at least a couple first turns so the mek aso had to advance to be within 3". I mean rokkit might not be too bad on a character but it's definitely not a №1 priority.
Full agree. I put a combi-skorcha on one so it could advance and skorch something with auto-hits, the rokkit was kind of a budget option because I was out of points. On the tabletop this unintendedly worked really well as the skorcha mek would advance with the two dreads and the rokkit mek stayed with the kanz that did not want to advance themselves.
Niiru wrote: I've not been around the Ork thread for a while, but Ive been spending a bit of time on the Chaos and AdMech threads due to a new project I'm starting, and with the release of the AdMEch codex I've seen some patterns that might give us some insight into the Ork codex that will (eventually) arrive.
1) Points Changes.
GW have been making alterations to points in the codex vs the index, so tweaks to weapon or unit points costs are definitly possible. Hard to predict which units they'll choose to alter, but so far they do seem to have altered the units (in admech anyway) that needed it. The changes were only minor though, but still every little helps.
2) Traits & Strategems
This is the part that makes the difference, more so than points changes. Electropriests in the AdMech index were a pretty good unit on paper, but were pointless in games because they were slow and they had zero transport options. GW didn't give admech a transport, but instead gave them two forgeworld (same as legion) strategems that allow for deepstriking or infiltrating units in exchange for CP. They also gave a couple of the forgeworlds traits that boost units in different ways, one in particular makes priests a powerful alpha strike unit.
Some of these forgeworld traits are similar to ones we've seen before in space marines and chaos, such as the Stygies trait that gives the opponent -1 to hit all units that are more than 12" away (same as Alpha Legion and ... Ravenguard, I think). Stygies is one of the ones that has the infiltrate strategem too, which is also the same as Alpha and Raven. A few slight differences, but very similar. Not all the admech forgeworld traits etc are copy pasted from other codexes, but I don't mind that some are as it gives a consistency in the rules and gives all the armies similar options but with very different units.
So, I suspect we would get something like:
Klan Stealthy : -1 to hit units more than 12" from an enemy, infiltrate one unit for 1CP
We will also likely get a "renewal" strategem, where you spend 1-2CP to remove one of your units from the board, and bring them back in at any table edge, at full strength. Chaos got one of these, and so did AdMech, and it's very Orky to have a unit spring back into the fray (though might be a bit overpowered for Boyz units).
As for the other things, I'm not sure. I could guess at some of the things that have come before, but its hard to say how it would be balanced for a horde army vs the elite lists of AdMech. Recycling big boyz squads could be a bit crazy. But still, some of the traits and strategems I've seen have made a fair bit of difference to army selection, and it's definitly something to look forward to. Could make all the difference.
What would you guys think of a strategem that gave ALL Ork Vehicle units the ability to declare a charge on the same turn they Advanced? 1 or 2 CP's? It seems this is the route GW is going with 8th.
Cuz05 wrote: Guys. Does it or does it not make sense that the Garg Squig can't carry mega armour? Considering that the regular Squiggoth can. Putting a rather sizable dent in the awesomeness that would be Ghaz stomping into battle on one in the list I'm looking at :(
It does not make much sense, no. It is just sloppy rule-writing by forge world. On the other hand you want something shooty and fragile in that Squiggoth. Like tankbustas.
Put Ghaz and retinue in a hard-topped battlewagon with a deffrolla. Or da jump him. He is not half-bad footslogging, either. Two advances + a charge gives him a credible turn 2 threat range of 24-26".
Went on a tournament today.
3 games, all a combination of eternal war and maelstrom. With ObSec, ini roll off from chapter approved and additional victory points for tabling the opponent. (5-20 depending on which turn)
My list:
KFF Mek on bike
2 Wyrdboys (da jump and warpath)
2 x 30 boys (each 3 rokkits, 5 shoota, nob with BC)
10 gretchin
6 tankbusta + 2 squiggs
2 bare meks (one the warlord; to avoid getting tabled and deny that extra killpoint)
2 single koptas
gorkanaut
battlewaggon (kannon, 2 rokkits, 2 BS)
8 flash gits with ammo runts
First game was vs chaos. The forgeworld 700 point demon, apostel, 2 herolds, bloodletters, zerkers, marines, 3 rhinos.
4 objectives + always 3 tactical objectives.
Went first and got the objective to hold all 6 objectives. Jumped da boys, charged the rhinos and got it - nice. Shot some of the 24 wounds of the demon and killed some small stuff.
His army charged the boys but due to losses i killed the right models so most of his stuff could not attack. Blocked almost his whole army to keep shooting at it from the distance as well.
Second turn killed infantry stuff and weakened the demon a bit more, he finally killed that first mob and moved towards me.
Got his demon down to 7 wounds with shooting and killed some of his stuff.
Second mob boys engaged the marines but failed to surround a rhino by 2" to kill the stuff inside after wrecking it.
Gorkanaut attacked the demon, rolled poor and got down to 3 wounds.
Was about 7 VP ahead and it looked really good. Had a lot of shooting stuff left but then his demon killed the battlewaggon.
Looked still really good for me but it played a bit slow so we had to finish after turn 4. He had the last turn and managed to get 3 of the 4 markers.
Made some small mistakes over the game like not jumping the grotz in his deployment zone at the end of the game and to bad there wasn`t a turn 5. Would at least had made it a draw but it ended 7:13.
Still very fun game and my opponent was a nice guy and we talked a bit to long during the game which was a bit unfortunatly in the end but i don`t care since that got me a good match up in the next game.
Number 2 was vs BA with lemartes, 1 jump captain, 1 jump priest, 2x jump death company, 2 x jump assault squad, 3 tactical squads, 1 raven, 1 leviathan bot and 1 razor. 1 death company and bot in raven.
Mission was killpoints with lockdown (degrading objectives).
Went first again and shot the raven down to 4 wounds and jumped the boys with warpath in front of his army.
They charged 2 tactical squads and one assault squad and killed almost all + consolidated into the razorback.
Deepstriked his death company behind the jumped boys and disembarked with the other death company squad in front of them as well + got all his characters into them.
The bot disembarked and together with the raven shot my waggon down to 3 wounds plus they whiped out about half of the second squad of boys.
Failed the charge with his deepstriking death company and after his first attacks my jumped mob used the strategem and killed the rest of the marines plus some more.
My second turn i shot down the raven and got the leviathan down to 4 wounds with shooting. The jumped mob kept killing stuff.
The boys back in the middle failed to charge his bot but i had a lot victory points after the first two rounds.
He tried his luck with the gorkanaut and some objectives but had more luck with the waggon which he destroyed and finally killed that first mob of boys.
In turn 3 i shot down the leviathan, jumped the grot with warpath to the razor to get the objective and keep it from shooting.
Killed lemartes and the small squad death company with the gorkanaut, that left his razor, captain, priest, and 1 assault squad.
Got him tabled by the end of turn 5 and with 38:8 i got a 20:0.
My shooting overall was insane this game and every move went according to plan. Lost most of the boys, the gretchin and nothing else.
Was now at rang 7/30 and the last game could get me into the top 5 but...
...3rd game vs Girlyman, Celestine, Captain, Callexus, 3 x scions, some IG, 5 razors, 2 x scouts and some conscripts.
Was vs a buddy of mine and we playtested it 2 days before but you guess it - 0:20. That list is a huge pain in the ass.
Made some mistakes and he really played it well to give me no chance to do something usefull with da jump.
Tried what i could but big guns never tire & cloak and shadows went bad for me.
Could maybe have scored some more points and delayed getting tabled to get at least 1-3 points but had really bad Maelstrom objectives which was my only chance since he would always dominate on the eternal war mission.
Even with lesser drops and rerolls i went second which also would have helped a lot. Had no real LOS blockers so i could not get out of sight.
Waggon got killed turn 1 and gorkanaut turn 3 without doing anything in shooting.
Total result: 15 of 30, 2 really nice games and learned a lot.
2 really good match ups and 1 really bad one.^^
Unit performance:
KFF mek: Nothing to say, solid choice
Wyrdboys: Really good, that warpath and jump combination gives my boys the necessary punch since my shooty orks just get 2 mobs
Boys: Did well, that rokkits safed my day once more. Need more grotz and an runtherd so the boys don´t have to screen so much.
Grotz: camped, jumped, wounded an razorback. what elso can i want for 30 points?
Meks: Tried it to hide them and it went perfekt twice. Think i stay with at least 1 for now. Also good to cover corners to prevent deep striking.
Tankbustas: They are awesome. In combination with the Flash Gits they did a lot good for me. Gotta love those squiggbombs.
Koptas: Expensive but durable vs small arms fire. Flexible rokkits? Yes please! One even killed an herold in overwatch. Also good for tactical objectives.
Gorkanaut: Well, he only shines in CC for me but when he gets there - holy moly. Draws fire from the waggon and can quickly kill MEQ and similar stuff (in CC). Love the model but 400 points could get me a lot other toys... :( That mass shooting is good if my jumping boys have better stuff to do or to kill off some last wounds.
Battle waggon: Never fails to amaze me. Makes Flash Gits and tankbustas playable but has often high priority. His shooting is a bonus.
Flash Gits: I love those guys. Tanks, marines, they are good for everything and i often got to shoot on BS4+. Good to clean up tanks or ravens after the bustas and bazookas did the main work.
I think as hard as it feels i`ll try my list without gorkanaut and get another waggon with bustas and flash gits instead.
The mass rokkits are expensive as hell but give me decent AT on different platforms.
Would love to take another mob of boys but don`t know where to get the points in 1850 point games.
Cuz05 wrote: Guys. Does it or does it not make sense that the Garg Squig can't carry mega armour? Considering that the regular Squiggoth can. Putting a rather sizable dent in the awesomeness that would be Ghaz stomping into battle on one in the list I'm looking at :(
It does not make much sense, no. It is just sloppy rule-writing by forge world. On the other hand you want something shooty and fragile in that Squiggoth. Like tankbustas.
Put Ghaz and retinue in a hard-topped battlewagon with a deffrolla. Or da jump him. He is not half-bad footslogging, either. Two advances + a charge gives him a credible turn 2 threat range of 24-26".
Sure, but these are just fun, fluffy games and I love the idea of him roaring from the top of it I run him in all sorts of ways, but yeah, normally in a trukk protected by a KFF or a hard top wagon.
Anyone had much experience with Stompas?
I know that two big solo units are a bad choice in maelstrom type games generally, but I was wondering about doing a pair of stompas as an army (fits 2000 points in 2 detachments nicely), and was wondering about tactics to do as well as I can.
The kustom stompa has slightly better options (though annoyingly no powerfield) but it's that touch too expensive to field two or one-and-one normal.
Jidmah wrote: Each bommer took out 10 pathfinders in cover (the blitza got some help from the dakka jet), and would have done the same to the units of fire warriors on their objectives, while the kanz would only fire four shots each and none of the daemons besides Kairos could be targeted due to all of them being characters.
That's an interesting combination of planes and daemons. 2v2 games sure change regular stuff we're used to. In case of many characters, having explodable planes near the shooty enemy gunline turn one is a way to force them make harsh decisions. In this case, 3 burna bombers would be ideal. They'd just fall and explode the gunline away. Still, my point about ork planes for pure ork army is that 10 pathfinders cost ~half of what the plane costs. And the planes usually don't pay off point-wise. Most enemies don't run squads larger than 5. Ork planes do have utility. But they're not tremendously good for points.
General takeaways:
- The most relevant thing the Nob did all game was smashing a tau tank commander with the freakin' banner itself. Another kan would have added more to the unit than +1 to hit.
- Moral is not as much an issue for kanz as I thought. Even though almost all of 3000 points of tau was shooting me over two turns, I only lost one kan and always held 2CP in reserve in case I do get to take a bad moral check. Dreads and planes definitely draw fire from kanz.
- KMB is a great budget option, but against tau, there were no good targets for them. D3 damage on a single shot is not enough to kill tanks and killing single infantry models was not really worth it. If feel like they might be way better against armies that actually have infantry with saves to ignore, like marines or craftworld eldar.
- Skorchas on dreads are pretty much wasted. If I actually get within 8" of something, the dread can charge it and will most likely utterly destroy it. If not... well, it probably didn't do anything. If something is not afraid to charge the dread, it's definitely not afraid of the skorcha. I'll probably go with big shootas next time.
- Now that I've played them both, I feel like burna bommers are actually better than blitza bommers. For +2 points you get another 3 shots that hit on 4+ and Explosive demise. I deployed within 9" of the KFF but outside 6" to prevent accidents, and afterwards it was pretty easy to keep the plane within explosion distance of the enemy for at least two turns - afterwards the bombs are gone anyways. You only get the 4+ against infantry, but bombs aren't that great against anything with multiple wounds. I never felt the urge to drop blitza bombs on a vehicle for 1.5 mortal wounds. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.
- Advance your dreads until you can make a sure charge, mine never reached combat because I stopped advancing a turn too early. You also probably need three dreads to have at least one in combat.
- I would run big meks for the repairs alone, KFF is just a nice add-on. Also the rokkit launcha on the big mek was a pretty good investment.
- Two planes are probably enough for most games.
Nice write up Jidmah, was a great read.
I really loved the use of planes, and the explodes was just the icing on the cake really I never thought of using the dakkajet as an assassination tool and will have to remember that one should the opportunity arise It seemed like you had some great rolls early game, how do you feel the rolls went overall? Was it quite heavily in your favour? or did the Tau roll average? Trying to gauge the element of rng in the game. The Kanz seemed to be pretty resilient, the dreads like you said; lackluster, given the chance to trade out the dreads what would you opt for? Big gunz? More Kanz?
I agree with Koooaei, 2v2s seem like a great dynamic for the Orks, Im gona have to try and squeeze in a 2v2 sometime (sadly the gaming scene in Oxford is pretty small).
I think as hard as it feels i`ll try my list without gorkanaut and get another waggon with bustas and flash gits instead.
The mass rokkits are expensive as hell but give me decent AT on different platforms.
Would love to take another mob of boys but don`t know where to get the points in 1850 point games.
Out of interest, did the flash gitz extra shooting rule come up much? and what did you spend your CP on? other than the Counter strike with your jumped boyz
To be honest, i forget to roll for it almost all the time. In competitive and friendly games as well. Still managed to get it of once.
Used the points for rolling of marker deployment. Prefer to go second so i got to choose my deployment zone 3 times which is nice and almost every time had at least one more objective near me.
Other points on the initiative.
Some for charging jumped boys, twice to reroll damage of the bombsquigg. Both times reroll gave me a 6.
The rest for wound rolls with rokkits or the morale / CC strategem.
I think with buggies instead the koptas and more grotz i' ll go for a brigade detachment.
I actually had a problem because had 3-7 drops less then my opponent which made deploying tricky. Guess with the roll off +1 i'll no longer care about my number of drops.
That new version does more damage to my kind of lists that it helpes.
Overall i have to admit i forgot some stuff in the heat of the battle which kosted me some potential points in game 1 & 3.
KFF Mek on bike
2 Wyrdboys (da jump and warpath)
2 x 30 boys (each 3 rokkits, 5 shoota, nob with BC)
10 gretchin
6 tankbusta + 2 squiggs
2 bare meks (one the warlord; to avoid getting tabled and deny that extra killpoint)
2 single koptas
gorkanaut
battlewaggon (kannon, 2 rokkits, 2 BS)
8 flash gits with ammo runts
I'm surprised that so many people are taking 3 rokkits in their boyz squads, it seems counterintuitive since most of the time you're jumping into melee anyway. How many shots are you actually hitting (since they're hitting on 5+)? Rule of Averages says only 1 of those hits of the 3, and then still has to Wound/break armor saves.
I'm glad someone's having success with their flash gitz, mine just don't seem to do much. 24" means they're needing to move most of the time to get into range, and that brings us back to 5+ shooting. STR5 AP-2 is nice, but D1 isn't very impressive unless you're shooting plain tactical marines.
KFF Mek on bike
2 Wyrdboys (da jump and warpath)
2 x 30 boys (each 3 rokkits, 5 shoota, nob with BC)
10 gretchin
6 tankbusta + 2 squiggs
2 bare meks (one the warlord; to avoid getting tabled and deny that extra killpoint)
2 single koptas
gorkanaut
battlewaggon (kannon, 2 rokkits, 2 BS)
8 flash gits with ammo runts
I'm surprised that so many people are taking 3 rokkits in their boyz squads, it seems counterintuitive since most of the time you're jumping into melee anyway. How many shots are you actually hitting (since they're hitting on 5+)? Rule of Averages says only 1 of those hits of the 3, and then still has to Wound/break armor saves.
I'm glad someone's having success with their flash gitz, mine just don't seem to do much. 24" means they're needing to move most of the time to get into range, and that brings us back to 5+ shooting. STR5 AP-2 is nice, but D1 isn't very impressive unless you're shooting plain tactical marines.
I also don't get this. A tankbusta is 1 point cheaper yet gets a reroll on vehicles. Why take a rokkit boy and lose this, while spending a point?
KFF Mek on bike
2 Wyrdboys (da jump and warpath)
2 x 30 boys (each 3 rokkits, 5 shoota, nob with BC)
10 gretchin
6 tankbusta + 2 squiggs
2 bare meks (one the warlord; to avoid getting tabled and deny that extra killpoint)
2 single koptas
gorkanaut
battlewaggon (kannon, 2 rokkits, 2 BS)
8 flash gits with ammo runts
I'm surprised that so many people are taking 3 rokkits in their boyz squads, it seems counterintuitive since most of the time you're jumping into melee anyway. How many shots are you actually hitting (since they're hitting on 5+)? Rule of Averages says only 1 of those hits of the 3, and then still has to Wound/break armor saves.
I'm glad someone's having success with their flash gitz, mine just don't seem to do much. 24" means they're needing to move most of the time to get into range, and that brings us back to 5+ shooting. STR5 AP-2 is nice, but D1 isn't very impressive unless you're shooting plain tactical marines.
I also don't get this. A tankbusta is 1 point cheaper yet gets a reroll on vehicles. Why take a rokkit boy and lose this, while spending a point?
I mean I'm not for rokkits in squads either but they are considerably more durable than Tankbustas. So if those boyz squads are in the open those rokkits will last longer than 6 tank bustas, but it also means you won't be doing much with the rest of the squad.
I'm surprised that so many people are taking 3 rokkits in their boyz squads, it seems counterintuitive since most of the time you're jumping into melee anyway. How many shots are you actually hitting (since they're hitting on 5+)? Rule of Averages says only 1 of those hits of the 3, and then still has to Wound/break armor saves.
I think that is faulty logic. Many people run something like 6x30 boyz, and you will at most jump two of those squads into melee. And the rokkits on the jumped squad is actually fairly useful as they will hit on a 5+ before attempting the charge. And because your opponent will often try to fall back from your boyz squad, they often get to fire those three rokkits every turn until the entire squad has been wiped.
With that being said, I rarely take 'eavy weapons on boyz squads, simply because most boyz will advance most of the time. And hitting on 6+ is simply too feeble.
I also don't get this. A tankbusta is 1 point cheaper yet gets a reroll on vehicles. Why take a rokkit boy and lose this, while spending a point?
If you are not running transports rokkits in boyz squads are much more survivable than tankbustas. They essentially have 26 ablative wounds.
The problem with rokkits in boyz squads is more about advancing with boyz being better than shooting nine times out of ten. And 12 points is fairly expensive.
Jidmah wrote: Each bommer took out 10 pathfinders in cover (the blitza got some help from the dakka jet), and would have done the same to the units of fire warriors on their objectives, while the kanz would only fire four shots each and none of the daemons besides Kairos could be targeted due to all of them being characters.
That's an interesting combination of planes and daemons. 2v2 games sure change regular stuff we're used to. In case of many characters, having explodable planes near the shooty enemy gunline turn one is a way to force them make harsh decisions. In this case, 3 burna bombers would be ideal. They'd just fall and explode the gunline away. Still, my point about ork planes for pure ork army is that 10 pathfinders cost ~half of what the plane costs. And the planes usually don't pay off point-wise. Most enemies don't run squads larger than 5. Ork planes do have utility. But they're not tremendously good for points.
It took 3000 points of tau to down two though. In a normal game you would still have one bommer left after the first turn, which could have dropped another bomb.
The reason why I took one of each plane was that my planes broke during my last move and needed some major repairs. I didn't have the chance to test any of them yet and since the opinions on them in this forum varied widely, I was going to see for myself.
In general, I think the burna bommer is always a better choice than the blitza bommer. For +2 points you get the additional big shoota with grot gunner and Explosive Demise as blast weapon/defense. The blitza bommer gets three additional dice for vehicles, which won't care a whole lot about 1.5 mortal wounds most of the time.
Against tau, the dakka jet also had tons of targets to shoot, since it's especially good at killing tau fire warriors. If your opponents aren't careful you can easily jump it next to a character and gun it down - not papa smurf, but librarians, tau commanders, daemon heralds and kff meks are definitely easy prey for it. It's also the cheapest of the three, so there's that.
All of them are pretty decent at clearing out bubble wrap and objective campers, so a good match for the walkers which lack the same while being weak to the same type of guns.
I just wouldn't field three again because I was kind of missing board presence which flyers simply don't provide.
In general, ork stuff is way to expensive. While messing around with the marine codex in battlescribe I discovered I could field Helbrecht (reroll hits, +1 str), two contemptors, four venerable dreads and two storm talons for the same points I fielded this list for. Except it would outeverything this list because everything is just way better in shooting, fighting and resilience. I guess I'll start checking ebay for Goff Marines.
Solar Shock wrote:I really loved the use of planes, and the explodes was just the icing on the cake really I never thought of using the dakkajet as an assassination tool and will have to remember that one should the opportunity arise It seemed like you had some great rolls early game, how do you feel the rolls went overall? Was it quite heavily in your favour? or did the Tau roll average?
To be fair, the tau rolls sucked on their big guns for the first two turns, even if they did punch through the KFF and armor, they only did 2-3 damage. However, I didn't make a single successful armor save on the bommers (against plenty weapons without AP or AP-1), so I felt like that evened it out.
My own shooting was ok (usually 2-3 hits on kanz), but I fudged all the charge rolls.
Trying to gauge the element of rng in the game. The Kanz seemed to be pretty resilient, the dreads like you said; lackluster, given the chance to trade out the dreads what would you opt for? Big gunz? More Kanz?
I would probably keep them, probably add another and trade one of the planes for mek gunz/big gunz. I was missing something to hold objectives in my deployment zone.
The first charge failed because my ally didn't expect to kill three kroot through smite, and if I had re-rolled the explosion of the first dread to go, the other would have made it into combat with 2 or 3 wounds left. Also longstrike's survival was pretty lucky, and he blew off 5 wounds of one dread all by himself. With less playing errors on my side, I feel like the dreads would have wrecked havoc on the tau castle. A point drop for the DCCW would be nice though, even at 0 points, they wouldn't be too cheap. Marine dreads have 4 attacks even without DCCW...
I might also just replace both by a gorkanaut. The additional speed and toughness seems like good deal, unlike the dreads it has relevant shooting and a big mek could have repaired it more often.
I agree with Koooaei, 2v2s seem like a great dynamic for the Orks, Im gona have to try and squeeze in a 2v2 sometime (sadly the gaming scene in Oxford is pretty small).
Ironically, tzeench daemons are very similar to orks - lots of cheap infantry, weak short-ranged shooting and some decent melee. Plus the changeling ist kind of a KFF mek for them. The character spam is kind of insane, but it pretty much felt like an army of stompy things moving towards the tau holed up in the corner.
JimOnMars wrote:I also don't get this. A tankbusta is 1 point cheaper yet gets a reroll on vehicles. Why take a rokkit boy and lose this, while spending a point?
Well, a unit of tankbustaz is simply dead by turn 2. It takes ten times as much shooting per rokkit to silence thems when they are hidden in boyz mobs.
Against tau, the dakka jet also had tons of targets to shoot, since it's especially good at killing tau fire warriors. If your opponents aren't careful you can easily jump it next to a character and gun it down - not papa smurf, but librarians, tau commanders, daemon heralds and kff meks are definitely easy prey for it. It's also the cheapest of the three, so there's that.
The burna-bommer is cheaper than the dakkajet, no? Assuming you take 6 supershootas on the dakka, it ends up at 148 (if I remember correctly), and the burnabommer is 120-something without the skorcha missiles.
In general, ork stuff is way to expensive. While messing around with the marine codex in battlescribe I discovered I could field Helbrecht (reroll hits, +1 str), two contemptors, four venerable dreads and two storm talons for the same points I fielded this list for. Except it would outeverything this list because everything is just way better in shooting, fighting and resilience. I guess I'll start checking ebay for Goff Marines.
Venerable dreads are better than deff-dreads in just about every way imaginable. It really strikes you just how overcosted the deff-dread is when you compare them straight up. But venerable dreads are easily handled by MOAR BOYZ nad MOAR SMITE, which sadly seems to be our best answer for everything. Well, at least there is an answer, which is more than could be said about 7th edition.
locarno24 wrote: Anyone had much experience with Stompas?
I know that two big solo units are a bad choice in maelstrom type games generally, but I was wondering about doing a pair of stompas as an army (fits 2000 points in 2 detachments nicely), and was wondering about tactics to do as well as I can.
The kustom stompa has slightly better options (though annoyingly no powerfield) but it's that touch too expensive to field two or one-and-one normal.
I played using a stompa this past weekend. Its a lot of points your putting into one model. Roughly double a knight? A mistake I made is not taking a few mek jobbers to walk behind it and fix damage. Keep all the meks inside and pop 1 out if the one already outside dies. You could take a unit of burna boyz and walk them behind it. It would have up to 3 cheap meks in the unit but they can be shot at, and the'yre pricey.
I balanced out so many points sunk into the stompa by taking minimal size trukker units. Trucks drive around grabbing objectives. Also Kommandos are awesome 5 boyz run about 45 points and can deepstrike to grab objectives
On a General note:
I was grumbling about the squig bombs being 10 points, but I will shut up. In another game I took a few small tankbuster units with 4 squig bombs each. They wrecked stuff! Tank hammers are meh because the unit need to jump out and assault vehicle. The squig bombs have BS 2+ so can be treated like a weapon firing. (Right?) And they're assault weapons so you can launch the squig bomb after trukk advances. (Right? I hope I did that right or I cheated! )
I'm surprised that so many people are taking 3 rokkits in their boyz squads, it seems counterintuitive since most of the time you're jumping into melee anyway. How many shots are you actually hitting (since they're hitting on 5+)? Rule of Averages says only 1 of those hits of the 3, and then still has to Wound/break armor saves.
I think that is faulty logic. Many people run something like 6x30 boyz, and you will at most jump two of those squads into melee. And the rokkits on the jumped squad is actually fairly useful as they will hit on a 5+ before attempting the charge. And because your opponent will often try to fall back from your boyz squad, they often get to fire those three rokkits every turn until the entire squad has been wiped.
With that being said, I rarely take 'eavy weapons on boyz squads, simply because most boyz will advance most of the time. And hitting on 6+ is simply too feeble.
I also don't get this. A tankbusta is 1 point cheaper yet gets a reroll on vehicles. Why take a rokkit boy and lose this, while spending a point?
If you are not running transports rokkits in boyz squads are much more survivable than tankbustas. They essentially have 26 ablative wounds.
The problem with rokkits in boyz squads is more about advancing with boyz being better than shooting nine times out of ten. And 12 points is fairly expensive.
In my list i lack boys and need to kill flyers & tanks fast or weaken it enough to let boys do the rest.
Also often i just jump one mob to shield with the other, score on objectives and kill everything that comes to my shooty stuff.
Depends on mission and opponents army.
My mobs almost never need to advance for that reason and for the moment i play them without warboss anyway.
Also i have 20+ rokkits in my army which gives me decent chances of hitting stuff. Often its just necessary to kill 1-3 tanks and keep the others in CC with my boys.
That flat 3 damage and the flexibiliy i get with using them on multiple platforms makes the 5+ up for me.
I see no real more effective way to deal with T8 or mass T7 when i want to stay shooty.
Today i played the same list vs Tallarn IG with 3 hellhounds, 3 leman russ, 2 mantikores, 1 flyer, 3 scions, 2 sniper squads and some infantry + characters.
Jumped in front of his tanks 1 squad with warpath, shot once and with consolidation was able to stay in CC with 3 of the tanks the whole game and with 2 more until turn 3.
Did the same in turn 3 with the second squad, which blocked the middle field turn 2 vs scions and my other stuff did that in my backyard.
Rokkits killed 2 other tanks and the flyer in turn 1-2 and i managed to keep the naut and waggon alive until turn 4.
The rest of my army kept scoring maelstrom and when he finally got rid of the boys and 2 big guys in turn 5 i was 20+ points ahead.
His tanks beeing wrecked or weakened he could`t get to the objectives although he had killed most of my stuff.
Played spoils of war + relic which was perfekt since i placed the second objective which gave me 4 of them after choosing deployment zone. Got the relic with my grotz who sneaked away while he was distracted by the angry boys, naut and all the rokkits flying around.
I see the rokkits not performing well in green tide lists and also think about running one mob without them for the first turn jump but i may not always be able to choose it for da jump when deployment is bad for me.
Need to get more grotz in my list so a can play both mobs more aggressive.
Have to admit if the first round charge fails after da jump i get a hard time because that 50% of my boys get whiped out most of the time.
That morale strategem is gold for me, saved my green ass more than once.
You played the squig bomb correct except squig bombs are also 2+ rerollable vs vehicles. It's pretty much our best damage per cost ratio wpn.
I'm just waiting for either FW update or Gw chapter approved/codex since orks are pretty much established at what's good and not his edition.
Been working on a transport heavy list with 6 boyz trucks and 3 busta trucks. But since it is currently impossible to prevent your opponent from shooting at the tank busta trukks I dont think its going to be a viable prospect this edition unless LOS rules get looked at.
Dr.Duck wrote: Been working on a transport heavy list with 6 boyz trucks and 3 busta trucks. But since it is currently impossible to prevent your opponent from shooting at the tank busta trukks I dont think its going to be a viable prospect this edition unless LOS rules get looked at.
The question becomes, "why are you bringing six trukks with things your opponent is not going to shoot first?"
Dr.Duck wrote: Been working on a transport heavy list with 6 boyz trucks and 3 busta trucks. But since it is currently impossible to prevent your opponent from shooting at the tank busta trukks I dont think its going to be a viable prospect this edition unless LOS rules get looked at.
The question becomes, "why are you bringing six trukks with things your opponent is not going to shoot first?"
Build moar tankbustas
The idea was to hide the the 3 busta trukks behind the 6 other trukks, but after reading rules its impossible to hide those 3 with current LOSRAW.
Im not sure that bringing a list with the majority of points in nothing but bustas in trukks is a winning proposition. 4 trukks with bustas is like half ur list, and can easily evaporate turn 1. Dont think they can earn even half thier points back in even 2 turns.
Dr.Duck wrote: Been working on a transport heavy list with 6 boyz trucks and 3 busta trucks. But since it is currently impossible to prevent your opponent from shooting at the tank busta trukks I dont think its going to be a viable prospect this edition unless LOS rules get looked at.
The question becomes, "why are you bringing six trukks with things your opponent is not going to shoot first?"
Build moar tankbustas
The idea was to hide the the 3 busta trukks behind the 6 other trukks, but after reading rules its impossible to hide those 3 with current LOSRAW.
Im not sure that bringing a list with the majority of points in nothing but bustas in trukks is a winning proposition. 4 trukks with bustas is like half ur list, and can easily evaporate turn 1. Dont think they can earn even half thier points back in even 2 turns.
Some perspective on what you are telling me. It takes almost 70 Lootas to shoot four trucks on turn one if you don't roll the ramshackle rule. I have had a BobbyG army rerolling everything only shoot down two dakkajets inside of one turn. You are saying you can position four trukks such that you lose four on turn one?
Bring six trukks with two tankbusta squads in each and don't play against people with 120 Lootas
Ur gonna use ork shooting as an example to prove to me how durable orks are???
70 lootas cost roughly 1200 points? btw who is gonna field 70 lootas.... cmon now.
8 assbacks or 6 assbacks and a stormraven/talon with bobby does the same while being significantly more durable towards the bustas and the lootas. While also being significantly more likely to see on the table. Doenst even need to be that many assbacks, plasma guns, missiles, lascannons etc. U only need to kill a couple trukks and a few of the contents for the strat to stop working.
But if you encounter a opponent that does field a heavy shooting list not only are you losing a game. U lost a game turn 1.
Makes sense. Its a shame a mek can't fix a stompa from insinside, but I guess that's why you pay for the kustom stompas repair krew rule.
With 2 stompas in 2000 points, I considered a couple of meks in auxiliary support detachments, or a grot mob in one, to fill up the points.
The grot 'krew' would let me kick them out to go grab an objective whilst stomping off the other way, butfrankly theyll die as soon as anyone looks at them funny so it's knd of one use...
The meks are the same - a wound back is nice, but I'm not convinced they'll live that long - although I guess the whole character thing might help for a turn or two.
Taking a pair of meks does cost me 2 command points. I dont need it for morale, and with the stompa able to fall back and charge more or less at will, I shouldn't need it too much for counterattack. The main use I can see for re rolls is keeping the supa-gatler firing, but I'd hope one reroll should be okay.
Against tau, the dakka jet also had tons of targets to shoot, since it's especially good at killing tau fire warriors. If your opponents aren't careful you can easily jump it next to a character and gun it down - not papa smurf, but librarians, tau commanders, daemon heralds and kff meks are definitely easy prey for it. It's also the cheapest of the three, so there's that.
The burna-bommer is cheaper than the dakkajet, no? Assuming you take 6 supershootas on the dakka, it ends up at 148 (if I remember correctly), and the burnabommer is 120-something without the skorcha missiles.
The burna bommer is 102 + 2x supa shoota + twin big shoota = 136, so you're right. I had skorcha rokkits on it this game, which did a whole lot of nothing (three shots, one hit, failed to wound), so I remembered it incorrectly. In that case, the burna bommer might actually be just as good as the dakka jet, maybe better if they manage to fix skorcha missiles. They feel like a big shoota, they should cost like one.
In general, ork stuff is way to expensive. While messing around with the marine codex in battlescribe I discovered I could field Helbrecht (reroll hits, +1 str), two contemptors, four venerable dreads and two storm talons for the same points I fielded this list for. Except it would outeverything this list because everything is just way better in shooting, fighting and resilience. I guess I'll start checking ebay for Goff Marines.
Venerable dreads are better than deff-dreads in just about every way imaginable. It really strikes you just how overcosted the deff-dread is when you compare them straight up. But venerable dreads are easily handled by MOAR BOYZ nad MOAR SMITE, which sadly seems to be our best answer for everything. Well, at least there is an answer, which is more than could be said about 7th edition.
And now go look at the contemptor. It hits everything on 2+, wounds most vehicles in combat on 2+ and brings a 6 shot autocannon that hits on 3+ even while moving. To top it off, it has its own integrated KFF that even works in combat. A gorkanaut is a joke compared to that I'd like looted ironclads, venerable dreads and contemptors in the ork codex please.
Anyone had any luck with Nobz and Meganobz in Trukks? What would be the most effective way of using them? BC Nobz for elite hunting or killsaws for vehicle deconstruction? Are small units of Meganobz with dual killsaws in Trukks any good?
I've tried nobz in wagons, meganobz in trukks and meganobz on foot.
Nobz are more viable than meganobz for vehicle lists. Meganobz are probably better than nobz for footslogging but regular boyz are better than both for footslogging.
Meganobz in trukks proved to be too overpriced to be really good. They did surprisingly little damage for points. Only managed to tarpit a bunch of marines for a couple turns - but it wasn't too good because marines just fell back and shot them with a-t weapons when all the other threats were down. And trukks are very easy to destroy. Easier than in 7-th with voidshields and cover.
Meganobz on foot once again, didn't kill much but just slogged alongside boyz, scored and dealt a couple wounds here and there. More boyz would have been MUCH better but i just wanted to try it. Some people like Da Jumping 5 Manz and it might be viable in some cases but 5 manz cost more than 30 boyz and almost always do less because there are so many weapons that kill them easilly. And once again, damage output is just too low for points.
Nobz in wagons did ok. Wagons are still not impossible to destroy but it takes some effort and they're passable in mellee. Don't bother with anythig other than a deffrolla. Nobz themselves do decent damage - especially against targets with medium durability. Currently big choppas and stabbas are the way to go. But what makes them really viable is access to ammo runts. Take as many of those as you can fit in your transport. They eat multi-wound weapons and mitigate nob'z weakness to multidamage weapons. The good thing is that you can now play around with wound alocation. If the enemy is shooting bolters, you can take those hits on nobz and utilise 4+ or 3+ (in cover) armor. If the opponent is shooting a lazcannon, throw an ammo runt in a way and laugh at how it gets splatted.
I'm not sure the precise number of points this comes to (very roughly 1k/80 PL), but I was considering playing one of my first Ork games with the following list:
Ghaz
Warboss, PK and kustom shoota
30 Boyz, PK Nob
2 x 10 Gretchin
Runtherd
5 Nobz with stabbas in a Trukk
5 Tankbustas in a Trukk
Painbiker
5-7 Warbikers, BC Nob
3 Deffkoptas, twin big shootas if points, rokkits if PL
5 Stormboyz? I only have 5
Other than maybe pulling the Stormboyz off the roster till I have more like 15, and perhaps moving some of my Gretchin to ammo runt duty, would you recommend any changes to make this a decent list for a small-ish pickup game?
I love BC Nobz with runts in a hard top wagon. Surprisingly effective against everything but flyers and hordes on the charge. If I put Ghaz in with them, it's a big target but things get very, very chopped. Arm one with a killsaw and terminators squeal.
Spend even more points and put Mad Dok in with them and you have my favourite unit in the game. Just pray the wagon doesn't evaporate turn 1.
I like having the FW Meka with KFF and rattler run alongside but I'm in solid fun mode then, concentrated Las fire in competitive mode ends that fun fast.
koooaei wrote: I've tried nobz in wagons, meganobz in trukks and meganobz on foot.
Nobz are more viable than meganobz for vehicle lists. Meganobz are probably better than nobz for footslogging but regular boyz are better than both for footslogging.
Meganobz are very slow when footslogging and die faster to anti-tank weapons than nobz.
Regular nobz with ammo runts are almost as durable as boyz, so they work just as good for footsloggers.
The best use for MANz currently is jump them onto an objective in your opponent's deployment zone that's not heavily guarded. Kanz are better and cheaper at almost everything else.
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KommissarKiln wrote: I'm not sure the precise number of points this comes to (very roughly 1k/80 PL), but I was considering playing one of my first Ork games with the following list:
Ghaz
Warboss, PK and kustom shoota
30 Boyz, PK Nob
2 x 10 Gretchin
Runtherd
5 Nobz with stabbas in a Trukk
5 Tankbustas in a Trukk
Painbiker
5-7 Warbikers, BC Nob
3 Deffkoptas, twin big shootas if points, rokkits if PL
5 Stormboyz? I only have 5
Other than maybe pulling the Stormboyz off the roster till I have more like 15, and perhaps moving some of my Gretchin to ammo runt duty, would you recommend any changes to make this a decent list for a small-ish pickup game?
I don't really see a reason to field those gretchin and the runtherd unless you don't own any more boyz (get more!). 5 Stormboyz really don't do a whole lot, so I'd advice to just get more. Otherwise the list is not stellar, but ok.
You should aim to get a weidboy in there, so you can jump those boyz to wherever all the fast stuff is at.
koooaei wrote: I've tried nobz in wagons, meganobz in trukks and meganobz on foot.
Nobz are more viable than meganobz for vehicle lists. Meganobz are probably better than nobz for footslogging but regular boyz are better than both for footslogging.
Meganobz in trukks proved to be too overpriced to be really good. They did surprisingly little damage for points. Only managed to tarpit a bunch of marines for a couple turns - but it wasn't too good because marines just fell back and shot them with a-t weapons when all the other threats were down. And trukks are very easy to destroy. Easier than in 7-th with voidshields and cover.
Meganobz on foot once again, didn't kill much but just slogged alongside boyz, scored and dealt a couple wounds here and there. More boyz would have been MUCH better but i just wanted to try it. Some people like Da Jumping 5 Manz and it might be viable in some cases but 5 manz cost more than 30 boyz and almost always do less because there are so many weapons that kill them easilly. And once again, damage output is just too low for points.
Nobz in wagons did ok. Wagons are still not impossible to destroy but it takes some effort and they're passable in mellee. Don't bother with anythig other than a deffrolla. Nobz themselves do decent damage - especially against targets with medium durability. Currently big choppas and stabbas are the way to go. But what makes them really viable is access to ammo runts. Take as many of those as you can fit in your transport. They eat multi-wound weapons and mitigate nob'z weakness to multidamage weapons. The good thing is that you can now play around with wound alocation. If the enemy is shooting bolters, you can take those hits on nobz and utilise 4+ or 3+ (in cover) armor. If the opponent is shooting a lazcannon, throw an ammo runt in a way and laugh at how it gets splatted.
In 8th edition the strength of an attack (S) is much less important than it used to be, while sheer number of attacks is what matters most. This is why boyz are so much better than pretty much anything else in the index. Lots of S4 AP0 attacks are much better than fewer S10 AP-4 attacks. 30 choppa boyz will do 8.9 wounds of damage to a dread while 3 MANZ with twin killsaws will do 8 wounds to a dread. Against infantry, or if the dread has an invulnerability save, the boyz are way superior to the manz. It is only against T8 or Sv 2+ enemies that killsaws or klaws are better than choppas.
In seventh when you charged a dread with a squad of boyz, the boyz were just extra wounds for the nob, who had a PK that (hopefully) killed the dread. In 8th that is completely turned around. The PK will only do a wound or two of damage, while the 100+ choppa attacks are what brings the dread down.
The same is true of regular Nobz to some extent. While they can be reasonably survivable with runts or in a wagon, their damage output is mostly inferior to that of regular boyz, even against things like MEQs, dreads or rhinos.
Number of attacks for models is only useful against targets with T < Models Strength*2.
Once you hit toughness 8 for S 4 attacks, weight of numbers doesn't get much done.
30 Orks with choppas versus a Toughness 8 model averages 9.5 wounds before saves. If it has a 3+ save that's 3 wounds. If it's a 2+ save that's 1-2 wounds. That's bad.
3 killsaw meganobz averages 8 wounds against the same target toughness 8. Making them 800% better vs T8 2+ sv models compared to 30 boyz. Or slightly better than twice as good versus The 8 3+ save. This is assuming no ++ saves in assault.
That sounds great but that is not a lot of targets.
It is very true that Boyz are better now than ever, they can charge anything and have a chance to hurt it. However there are niches for other units where they outperform boys. Those niches are small but out there.
pismakron wrote: The same is true of regular Nobz to some extent. While they can be reasonably survivable with runts or in a wagon, their damage output is mostly inferior to that of regular boyz, even against things like MEQs, dreads or rhinos.
Against multi-wound targets that boyz only wound on 5+ and BC nobz wound on 3+ or 4+, big choppa nobz outperform a unit of boyz due to 2 dealing 2 damage per hit.
Against T5+ with 3+ save 3 boyz will have 9 attacks, hit 6, wound 2. Assuming 2 wounds which do .66 damage
1 nob has 3 attacks, hits 2
against T5/6 wounds 1.33 which do 1.33 damage.
against T7 wounds 1 which do 1 damage on average
for completeness, the ammo runt also does 0.002 wounds to any target with T4+
Boyz are more point efficient per wound, but nobz are more reliable when you need something like a dread or daemon prince dead.
Ammo runts might even things out for nobz vs meganobz if the opponent has a lot of AT weaponry. However, meganobz are pretty tough vs anti-infantry weapons and there is (surprisingly) a number of lists with close to no AT weaponry but with tons of anti-infantry guns - at least in our meta. Anywayz, i think that this point is moot because boyz are still better than both for footslogging. AT needs are filled with PK characters and sheer number of attacks that boyz possess. If nobz are somewhat better than boyz at killing tougher stuff like razors, they still go down pretty easilly vs those razors. And they're not really needed.
Anywayz, you can field nobz and meganobz footslogging. Nobz NEED ammo runts to be viable in this case. Notably, they're way better for this role than they used to be in previous editions. So, it might be fun to convert all those grots to ammo runts and run a couple nob squads. Meganobz can be called a more extreme case of nobz. They have a smaller footprint, they're probably somewhat tougher vs anti-infantry and about as tough vs 2d weapons as nobz cause of ammo runts, much worse vs dedicated AT weapons like meltas and lazcannons. The damage output of nobz with big choppas is higher than that of manz vs light and medium vehicles.
As for speed, i haven't noticed much difference between 4+d6 and 5+d6.
...
What i'm trying to do here is desperately hang on to MANz because i have 15 of them and don't know what to do with them. Don't want to just wait for a codex release. But the best i can tell about manz is that they can be used in casual games but are not all that useful.
I just hope Ork Codex will bring significant decrease of Trukk (and Battlewagon?) cost. If that happens and motorized list becomes (semi)viable one could run small units of 3-5 Meganobz in Trukks as mini distraction or pain in the bottom.
Imagine if Nobz got the option to take Git Findaz. Would that be broken?
pismakron wrote: The same is true of regular Nobz to some extent. While they can be reasonably survivable with runts or in a wagon, their damage output is mostly inferior to that of regular boyz, even against things like MEQs, dreads or rhinos.
Against multi-wound targets that boyz only wound on 5+ and BC nobz wound on 3+ or 4+, big choppa nobz outperform a unit of boyz due to 2 dealing 2 damage per hit.
Against T5+ with 3+ save 3 boyz will have 9 attacks, hit 6, wound 2. Assuming 2 wounds which do .66 damage
1 nob has 3 attacks, hits 2
against T5/6 wounds 1.33 which do 1.33 damage.
against T7 wounds 1 which do 1 damage on average
for completeness, the ammo runt also does 0.002 wounds to any target with T4+
Boyz are more point efficient per wound, but nobz are more reliable when you need something like a dread or daemon prince dead.
I really don't think so. 6 nobz with shootas, big choppas and runts costs 180 points, exactly the same as 180 vanilla shoota boyz.
When shooting the nobz will do 0.67 wounds to a daemon prince or razorback. The shoota boyz will do 2.22 wounds to either.
In melee the nobz will do 8 wounds of damage to a daemon prince or 6 wounds to a razorback. They boyz will do 6.67 wounds to either.
And of course against anything with single-wound models the boyz are _massively_ better.
This is also why you see a lots of list with very little anti-tank stuff. Bolters, shootas and assallt cannos will do the job. Especially when supported by a bit of smite.
Against multi-wound targets that boyz only wound on 5+ and BC nobz wound on 3+ or 4+, big choppa nobz outperform a unit of boyz due to 2 dealing 2 damage per hit.
Against T5+ with 3+ save 3 boyz will have 9 attacks, hit 6, wound 2. Assuming 2 wounds which do .66 damage
1 nob
3 boyz cost 18 pts. Nob with a big choppa and an ammo runt costs 30. So, it's more fair to compare a bc nob to 5 boyz.
5 boyz will deal unsaved wounds to 3+ targets: 1.667 to t4, 1.111 to t5-7, 0.555 to t8
bc nob will deal unsaved wounds to 3+ targets: 0.667 x 2 to t4-t6, 0.5 x 2 to t7 and 0.333 x 2 to t8
So, they have pretty comparable damage output vs tougher stuff with 3+ armor but boyz are better vs 1-wound targets. Nobz will go ahead vs tougher 2+ armored stuff Keep in mind that boyz are easier to buff and have access to +1 attack if there are more of them. However, it's harder to get more boyz in striking range while nobz can easier concentrate power.
As for survivability, 5 6+ wounds are more preferable to 2 4+ wounds with a 6+ meatshield. Though, they're very close vs anti-infantry weaponry. And Nobz have way fewer ld issues.
So, in the end, regular nobz could be used on foot but they would perform close to how boyz would perform. And won't bring obsec and extra CP to the table. They can be used on foot but they are more fit for transports as they're basically concentrated boyz that take up less space.
pismakron wrote: The same is true of regular Nobz to some extent. While they can be reasonably survivable with runts or in a wagon, their damage output is mostly inferior to that of regular boyz, even against things like MEQs, dreads or rhinos.
Against multi-wound targets that boyz only wound on 5+ and BC nobz wound on 3+ or 4+, big choppa nobz outperform a unit of boyz due to 2 dealing 2 damage per hit.
Against T5+ with 3+ save 3 boyz will have 9 attacks, hit 6, wound 2. Assuming 2 wounds which do .66 damage
1 nob has 3 attacks, hits 2
against T5/6 wounds 1.33 which do 1.33 damage.
against T7 wounds 1 which do 1 damage on average
for completeness, the ammo runt also does 0.002 wounds to any target with T4+
Boyz are more point efficient per wound, but nobz are more reliable when you need something like a dread or daemon prince dead.
I really don't think so. 6 nobz with shootas, big choppas and runts costs 180 points, exactly the same as 180 vanilla shoota boyz.
When shooting the nobz will do 0.67 wounds to a daemon prince or razorback. The shoota boyz will do 2.22 wounds to either.
In melee the nobz will do 8 wounds of damage to a daemon prince or 6 wounds to a razorback. They boyz will do 6.67 wounds to either.
The key difference is that nobz can go above those 6, while boyz are capped out. In addition, you will almost always get all nobz (up to 10) in combat with a vehicle or a character and almost never get 20+ boyz to fight such a model. Not to mention that daemon princes (like most characters) are a lot easier to charge than to shoot.
Also, don't go go blind on averages - especially multi-damage weapons make them a lot less useful for comparison.
For example, 3 boyz have a 36% chance to cause exactly one damage and 50% chance to cause no damage at all to any a prince or vehicle with a 3+ save, while the nob has a 53% chance to cause at least 2 damage against T6 and 43% against T7
The average result is not necessary a very likely result.
koooaei wrote:
So, they have pretty comparable damage output vs tougher stuff with 3+ armor but boyz are better vs 1-wound targets. Nobz will go ahead vs tougher 2+ armored stuff Keep in mind that boyz are easier to buff and have access to +1 attack if there are more of them. However, it's harder to get more boyz in striking range while nobz can easier concentrate power.
As for survivability, 5 6+ wounds are more preferable to 2 4+ wounds with a 6+ meatshield. Though, they're very close vs anti-infantry weaponry. And Nobz have way fewer ld issues.
Again, I agree with you - IMHOfor footsloggers, this is not an either nobz or boyz decision. I've had good success with mixing two units of nobz with huge blobs of boyz. Nobz lose any vulnerability to moral due to ld 30 and when an enemy tries to wipe a unit of boyz through moral, you'll almost have one or two standing due to Keepin' Order which denies kill points or maelstrom VP (although the banner nob also provides this). On the other hand, when something needs to die that would tie up your boyz for multiple turns, they are pretty likely to get the job done within one turn.
So, in the end, regular nobz could be used on foot but they would perform close to how boyz would perform. And won't bring obsec and extra CP to the table. They can be used on foot but they are more fit for transports as they're basically concentrated boyz that take up less space.
You do need 3 elites for a brigade, and you should bringt 3 units of boyz to any non-mechanized list anyways, so you wouldn't lose out on CP anyways.
As for objective secured, most people here ignore the tournament rules pack, so when I'm going to benefit from obsec, this discussion will be obsolete anyways. I'm not convinced that there are a ton of units with obsec that could steal an objective from a unit of nobz anyways.
pismakron wrote: The same is true of regular Nobz to some extent. While they can be reasonably survivable with runts or in a wagon, their damage output is mostly inferior to that of regular boyz, even against things like MEQs, dreads or rhinos.
Against multi-wound targets that boyz only wound on 5+ and BC nobz wound on 3+ or 4+, big choppa nobz outperform a unit of boyz due to 2 dealing 2 damage per hit.
Against T5+ with 3+ save 3 boyz will have 9 attacks, hit 6, wound 2. Assuming 2 wounds which do .66 damage
1 nob has 3 attacks, hits 2
against T5/6 wounds 1.33 which do 1.33 damage.
against T7 wounds 1 which do 1 damage on average
for completeness, the ammo runt also does 0.002 wounds to any target with T4+
Boyz are more point efficient per wound, but nobz are more reliable when you need something like a dread or daemon prince dead.
I really don't think so. 6 nobz with shootas, big choppas and runts costs 180 points, exactly the same as 180 vanilla shoota boyz.
When shooting the nobz will do 0.67 wounds to a daemon prince or razorback. The shoota boyz will do 2.22 wounds to either.
In melee the nobz will do 8 wounds of damage to a daemon prince or 6 wounds to a razorback. They boyz will do 6.67 wounds to either.
And of course against anything with single-wound models the boyz are _massively_ better.
This is also why you see a lots of list with very little anti-tank stuff. Bolters, shootas and assallt cannos will do the job. Especially when supported by a bit of smite.
Just had to point out the 180 vanilla Boyz for 180 points. If only. That would be a green tide we could be proud of.
You do need 3 elites for a brigade, and you should bringt 3 units of boyz to any non-mechanized list anyways, so you wouldn't lose out on CP anyways.
As for objective secured, most people here ignore the tournament rules pack, so when I'm going to benefit from obsec, this discussion will be obsolete anyways. I'm not convinced that there are a ton of units with obsec that could steal an objective from a unit of nobz anyways.
The issue with this is that Nobz are probably too expensive to be a great brigade option, unless your fast attack and heavy slots are min units.
Jidmah wrote: Are we talking about actually fielding a brigade or hypothetically losing CP if fielding a brigade was actually worthwhile below 3000 points?
Yeah, going to have to agree with Jidmah's sentiment here. A brigade for Orks is overkill given that our stuff beyond boyz is fairly expensive meaning that even if we use grotz to fill up the troop slots, we'll use too many points filling the other slots to get the CP, unless you use min squads which takes away a lot of the point for having the CP's if you take a barebones army.
How would you position, move to combat, what do you target/engage (alone or with boyz?) with your Warboss in next few examples:
1) Boss footslogging with Boyz
2) Boss in Trukk (army either completely motorized or partially motorized)
3) Boss on Bike with footslogging Boyz
4) Boss on Bike with motorized army
Same thing but with KFF Big Mek (do you even engage combat with him?):
1) Big Mek footslogging with Boyz
2) Big Mek on bike with footslogging Boyz
3) Big Mek on bike with motorized army
Azhday wrote: How would you position, move to combat, what do you target/engage (alone or with boyz?) with your Warboss in next few examples:
1) Boss footslogging with Boyz
In my experience footslogging warbosses are there only for morale purpose or to fill a mandatory HQ slot. The best loadout IMHO is a big choppa and a shoota, a 64 points warboss, basically the same price of a weirdboy.
2) Boss in Trukk (army either completely motorized or partially motorized)
Never tried that. I've run ghaz in a BW in a list with 3 BW full of boyz. Decent but quite expensive and against opponents with tons of anti tank you may be screwed since the beginning. I wouldn't embark a simple warboss in a vehicle, a biker one is certainly better.
One of the most common option. The speed granted by the bike makes the warboss useful for many purpose, not only to morale. In this case a pk is a good investment.
Same thing but with KFF Big Mek (do you even engage combat with him?):
1) Big Mek footslogging with Boyz
2) Big Mek on bike with footslogging Boyz
3) Big Mek on bike with motorized army
I usually include a biker big mek and I tipycally keep him out of combat. His purpose is to give the invuln, and thanks to the bike he also has 6 S5 shots and can turbo boost to an objective in a later turn. Eventually he can tarpit a shooty unit. But I never give him close combat weapons.
Does the rule;
Hang On! of the kill tank prevent lootas from hitting? if its moved.
Hang on states that embarked models may only hit in the shooting phase on a 6+, but deffgunz are heavy, thus the models must subtract 1 from hit rolls if they have moved. So technically they can never roll a 6?
koooaei wrote: It applies after all the other modifiers, i think.
So, 5+ to hit, -1 for moving = 6+ to hit, 'hang on' = still 6+, since it's not a +/- modifier. Correct?
This stuff is far and away the most confusing part of 8th to me....
Obviously, add an external -1 to hit and the moved Lootas become 7+ and remain so, with hang on clearly not granting a +1 to bring it back to 6+. I would guess thats the flip side of the 1st reading.
I only hit on a 6+ due to hang on. But then, any hit rolls I must subtract 1 from. thus making any of my rolls never a 6. As If I roll a 6 its a 5. I cant see a way around it, unless hang on is a rule overriding the heavy weapons rule. which I dont think it is.
As the heavy weapons isnt a BS modifier, its a dice modifier, whereas hang on is a BS modifier. GW. Trying to find some good shooting units to go in my mechanised list of Kill tank and 2x Bigg trakks. But both lootas and gitz are my favourites, and I wanted to stick them in a list where they might see combat.
I know crazy, lootas in combat, but hey! if GW thinks they are priced right because they have a melee stat line.... well! then lets get crumpin'!
Was thinking about that too a few pages ago and for me the FAQ makes it clear.
Set values come before modifiers so that 6+ roll for your lootas still gets modified if the kill tank has moved.
Too bad because otherwise they would work perfekt as mobile flyer hunter if that 6+ would overrule all the other modifiers.
Kill tank specifies modifiers still apply from the vehicle. So they would not be able to hit as they have the modifier from moving.
I often run 11 Boyz in Trukk with warboss, often I run 2-3 units in that setup. The disembark move+advance and then assault gives them a large threat range. If I can I try to charge the trukk into the side of what I want to assault to eat overwatch then charge the Boyz in. I will charge these units into anything T7 or less. It's pretty easy to pop warboss out one side of trukk, and the unit out the other.
Oh well, too bad. Still, I remain a bigger fan of BC and/or Skorcha Nobz in survivable transports, drawing AT fire from less immediate threats. Combining that with jumped boyz has worked out ok for me in dealing with a range of things. Shooting at them rarely has. My scratch build has been more effective deployed as a Supa Skorcha Big Trakk than a Kill Tank. Leaves more points for choppy Nobz and their rides. When it's not on the shelf... With the SAGs (cries)...
Yeah I played a couple of games with SAGs and they were very underwhelming. One of the games I even rolled an eleven two turns in a row, but then the hits were 5 shots(hit twice...) And two shots which both missed. A SAG is a good way to waste 100pts and that's about it's only use. They are okay at hurting( I don't dare say killing..) light vehicles and artillery but that's about it and a lot of other things can do that.
As with so much of the Ork stuff, I don't really have a problem with the SAG per se, it's just WAY too expensive for what it's generally capable of achieving. On average, it's marginally more dangerous than a marine rapid-firing a plasma gun, with better range, and only available on an already expensive model most of whose stats/abilities are wasted if it's hanging out, not moving, in the backfield. Massive points drop, then it might be vaguely worthwhile.
Kommandos are my bread and butter, I have been winning tournaments of late with lists built around Kommandos.
My Current list is 6 max sized units of Kommandos and 2 Units of boyz and 2 units of Stormboyz along with a smattering of HQs and 2 units of grotz
The point is the stormboyz race after enemy objectives, 1 unit of boyz advances menacingly against my opponent and everything else camps the rear, turn 2 or 3 depending on where my boyzs/stormboyz are I have 60 Kommandos and 30 Boyz magically appear anywhere I want . I have watched my opponents faces after they thought they were doing well removing boyz and poof 90 just appeared IN CHARGE RANGE!
I remember seeing your kommando +stormboy list and thinking it would do well as it has a clear focus with zerg-rushing the enemy.
Care to post it again? You ran bc on all boss nobz or barebones? Is it worth running biker meks alongside stormboyz? Is your weirdboy left alone after jumping the boyz mob forward? Have you considered running Snikrot?
Cheers
Edit: How have you dealt with stormravens? I've been facing one in 1400 games and have just been ignoring it, but then I don't have any stormboyz..
Sluggaloo wrote: I remember seeing your kommando +stormboy list and thinking it would do well as it has a clear focus with zerg-rushing the enemy.
Care to post it again? You ran bc on all boss nobz or barebones? Is it worth running biker meks alongside stormboyz? Is your weirdboy left alone after jumping the boyz mob forward? Have you considered running Snikrot?
Cheers
Edit: How have you dealt with stormravens? I've been facing one in 1400 games and have just been ignoring it, but then I don't have any stormboyz..
Sure Thing, its two detachments, Battalion and Vanguard
Battalion:
Big Mek on bike with KFF Weirdboy da jump
boyz x30 with Nob/BC Boyz x30 with nob/BC Grots (Min) Grots (Min)
Big mek plays tag with the stormboyz and the Warpath Weirdboy goes with the foot sloggin boyz, the grots are rear objective holders and secondary/tertiary jumps if i need them somewhere else, the 2nd mob of boyz with the grots stay back field with the "Da Jump" Weirdboy
Turn 1 you advance your Stormboyz/Big Mek and Boyz squad, jump a unit of grots if you need to and then wait, turn 2 same thing, Turn 3 you have 72 Kommandos and 30 Boyz appear within 9inches of your opponent and watch as he poops himself .
As to your question about stormravens and other flyers, ignore them, stormboyz won't catch them unless your opponent is stupid. As for snikrot, he isn't worth it, his buff is bass ackwards. he should confer better cover or maybe just +1 cover in general to all units within 6, but he doesn't so don't waste the points, plus he isn't that great in CC anyway.
What about using Snikrot as an objective camper. Remember opponents cant target him unless he is the closest model, and you can hide him in an objective in some rooms and he gets a fat+3 save and 4 wounds iirc. Potentially our hardest to remove objective camper available to us, the enemy would need to dedicate a flier to fly up to him and gun him down if you position properly.
What about zaggstrukk? Fearless for your stormboyz cant be a bad thing if they're flying head on into the enemy gunline
Edit: Is there any reason you don't run the kommandos in min squads?
Cuz05 wrote:Oh well, too bad. Still, I remain a bigger fan of BC and/or Skorcha Nobz in survivable transports, drawing AT fire from less immediate threats. Combining that with jumped boyz has worked out ok for me in dealing with a range of things. Shooting at them rarely has. My scratch build has been more effective deployed as a Supa Skorcha Big Trakk than a Kill Tank. Leaves more points for choppy Nobz and their rides. When it's not on the shelf... With the SAGs (cries)...
Yeh I have been thinking about Nobz, but seems costly. At present the core of my mech list is; Kill tank, bigtrakk, meka-dred and a burna-bomma. Just working out the rest. Im now leaning towards melee centered units inside the vehicles.
Sluggaloo wrote:What about using Snikrot as an objective camper. Remember opponents cant target him unless he is the closest model, and you can hide him in an objective in some rooms and he gets a fat+3 save and 4 wounds iirc. Potentially our hardest to remove objective camper available to us, the enemy would need to dedicate a flier to fly up to him and gun him down if you position properly.
What about zaggstrukk? Fearless for your stormboyz cant be a bad thing if they're flying head on into the enemy gunline
Edit: Is there any reason you don't run the kommandos in min squads?
Snik is a nice idea for an objective camper.
I would assume due to detatchment rules, if he puts them in min squads he has too many units? But indeed it does sound like a strong list, I just cant be dealing with that many boyz!
Because it's only 24 points more expensive than a min squad of kommandos but more durable since he can't be targeted unless he's the closest model. Being an HQ he can also be usueful to unlock an additional detachment sometimes.
In a list with tons of kommandos he could be interesting even as a simple objective camper, he can give a decent buff for the other units and with 60-90 kommandos on the field his re-rollings may even be something. I haven't tried him in this edition though.
Blackie wrote: Because it's only 24 points more expensive than a min squad of kommandos but more durable since he can't be targeted unless he's the closest model. Being an HQ he can also be usueful to unlock an additional detachment sometimes.
In a list with tons of kommandos he could be interesting even as a simple objective camper, he can give a decent buff for the other units and with 60-90 kommandos on the field his re-rollings may even be something. I haven't tried him in this edition though.
Oi! Why are we still 'ere? Jus ta suffah'?..
Well, jokes aside now. I think that kommando squads that big can be crippled by lack of wargear (like 0 point burnaz) and nobs.
Snikrot is one of our best objective campers/grabbers, he can appear just about anywhere turn 3 (so that is 2 turns of no shooting) and cannot be targeted (except by snipers) unless he is closest. He also has six 3+ save wounds when in cover. He is also great in relic missions if you get first turn, drop on the relic then da jump him 9" behind other models.
If da' Boss az 1 kill tank an' 2 supa-skorcha Bigtrakkz how many Nobz does he fit in da kill tank to has enuff skorcha's to burn da wurld?
Da Big Mek finks;
if da kill tank takes 2 skorchas, den da bigtrakkz takez 2 skorchas and 2 bigshootas; den 5 Nobz wit 3 Kombi-skorchas is enuff flamez for all the flamey needz. Den each Nob takes n' ammo runt strapped to his chest for protecshun an 3 BC's an 2 powa stabbaz.
Dis way I has plenty of flamez, wit 2 nobz for xtra wounds, n 5 ammo runts for all dem lascannons.
pismakron wrote: Why would you take a close-combat specialist to be an objective camper? A character with WS 2+ and six attacks needs to fight to make his points back.
If he's held an objective that wins you the game, he's made back his points whether he got into combat or not.
What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?
Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?
Azhday wrote: What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?
Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?
Generally speaking, T1 you send most battlewagons forward (except ones with shooty units) in a straight bee-line to whatever targets that matter. T2, hopefully your battlewagon survived and is within deployment/charge range of the target unit. You usually use the battlewagon as the overwatch soaker by having them charge the unit you're going to charge with the battlewagon's former occupants. As to how many wounds it has before it reaches combat, it really depends on who you face. If it's a shooty army like Tau, maybe half its wounds (though it can potentially be alpha struck to death by scions or cacaphony enabled combi-plasma chaos termies). Against shooting limited armies like Chaos Daemons, it could be practically unscathed. Presumably, you took a deffrolla, in which case it is best served against infantry. S8 means you wound on 2's generally speaking and 6 attacks alongside AP-2 ensures you can run over most chaff units and damage 3+ save units reliably.
As far as I remember, as long as all the deffkoptas flew over the unit/model, they can all drop Big Bomms on it.
Azhday wrote: What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?
Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?
I had this amusing thought about Deffrolla BWs after they drop the load of Nobz/Boss/whatever. If you Da Jump a unit of 20 Gretchen up to the wagon and have them embark next round before the wagon moves, you suddenly have 20 pistols that can hit on 3+ at the same time you are running over stuff with the def rolla. And the gretchen are safe until the BW explodes.
I never take the deff rolla unless I'm fielding more than a wagon. And the rolla goes to the less scary transport, so if you have a wagon full of nobz, meganobz or boyz plus a warboss/ghaz don't give that transport a rolla since it's priority target anyway.
If you have a wagon full of expensive stuff and a second one with 20 boyz a def rolla for the latter could be a decent option.
Never give the rolla to a wagon that carries shooty units like flash gitz or tankbustas.
I usually don't have the points to use them though, even with 3 BWs.
Boyz . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz ] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. 11x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
It's ok, however i'd save the points on bigshootas and invest them into something else. Also, split burnaboyz into 2 squads. Or get more tankbustas instead - they usually do better than burna boyz.
Ditch the big shootas and try to increase the number of the smaller mobz of boyz, aim at 3x30 boyz. I'd also ditch one rolla at least since the flash gitz transport is not going to charge, but probably both rollas can be skipped, and with the spared points add as many tankbustas you can add.
I agree, there is little reason to field 12 boyz in a trukk when you can jump 30 across the board.
In addition, for jumping mobs you should equip them with shootas. Charges might fail to roll the needed 9", but shootas will always be in range - and when the 30 boyz get into combat, the extra attack from the choppa is usually not needed anyways.
In addition, for jumping mobs you should equip them with shootas.
That's optional. 30 shootas still do very little at range. As you're basically only getting 30 extra shots the turn you arrive. 30 shots is <1 dead marine. And is statistically 0.416 dead marines in cover. Besides, you don't always know what blob you're going to jump.
It all depends on the personal preference. For example, i prefer squads composed of 10 shootas, 19 sluggas and a nob. I feel that it's optimal to have at least some shooting without any noticeable drop in mellee output. Because it's not a guarantee that all the boyz are able to strike simultaniously, so the shootas can hang further back and still provide this tiny bit of damage even if they don't make it to combat. And if you need more mellee damage, shootas go down first. If you really need shooting and want to stay out of comba, kill choppaboyz first.
You might find another combination suits you better. I'm almost always advancing the boyz, so choppas are more preferable. But no shooting at all is really bad vs bauble wraps.
, and in fact makes me want to sort myself out a kommando squad.
, wounding the two kanz in the rear. Daemons finish two unit of fire warriors, so only 2VP for that mission. Dakka jet kills most of a unit of fire warriors.
It seemed like you had some great rolls early game, how do you feel the rolls went overall? Was it quite heavily in your favour? or did the Tau roll average? Trying to gauge the element of 
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