skyfi wrote: Kommando grots, or grot snipers should be a thing !
Agreed!
I got thrashed by Tau yesterday! Good lord it went bad for me all game. My dice were no help at all.
Marker lights seems more powerful now than last edition but I may still be in shock. My Opponent brought 2 stormsurge on his list. Does that sound excessive for a 2000 point game.
Admittedly I did include a few units I had just repainted....Not really the strongest choices.
He made the comment after the game that I should have brought more vehicles, he seems to think he has trouble with vehicles.
It's got me thinking maybe that's not a bad idea. I'll probably load up on wartrakks next time, and try to hold my Boys mobs back out of the way or something. I couldn't win a fight all day...
skyfi wrote: Anybody hoping we get access to snipers with our codex?
Would be neat to have a single infantry elite model sniper or perhaps an upgrade for kommandos.
Even if bs 4+ and on a 1 hits nearest model in firing path friend or foe, or perhaps nearest model to his intended target within 6" or so.
Would be very orky
How are y'all dealing with character auras you need to remove now? They have been targets of charges for me when I can kill the screens and get by
without new models the best we can hope for IMHO is wierdboy eadbanger power changed into "target a visible model within 9in" instead of closest visible model within 9in. This will make it different then smite and better for sniping models.
skyfi wrote: Anybody hoping we get access to snipers with our codex?
Would be neat to have a single infantry elite model sniper or perhaps an upgrade for kommandos.
Even if bs 4+ and on a 1 hits nearest model in firing path friend or foe, or perhaps nearest model to his intended target within 6" or so.
Would be very orky
How are y'all dealing with character auras you need to remove now? They have been targets of charges for me when I can kill the screens and get by
without new models the best we can hope for IMHO is wierdboy eadbanger power changed into "target a visible model within 9in" instead of closest visible model within 9in. This will make it different then smite and better for sniping models.
That change would at least put it as a power I would consider. I still would probably not take it over Da Jump or Warpath, but on a 3rd weird boy it might see play.
skyfi wrote: Anybody hoping we get access to snipers with our codex?
Would be neat to have a single infantry elite model sniper or perhaps an upgrade for kommandos.
Even if bs 4+ and on a 1 hits nearest model in firing path friend or foe, or perhaps nearest model to his intended target within 6" or so.
Would be very orky
How are y'all dealing with character auras you need to remove now? They have been targets of charges for me when I can kill the screens and get by
without new models the best we can hope for IMHO is wierdboy eadbanger power changed into "target a visible model within 9in" instead of closest visible model within 9in. This will make it different then smite and better for sniping models.
That change would at least put it as a power I would consider. I still would probably not take it over Da Jump or Warpath, but on a 3rd weird boy it might see play.
its the only change that makes it useful. Smite will still be better in most situations since it works on everything and orks can reliable do d6 wounds with smite to any visible unit within 18in.
The ability to snipe with eadbanger would make it useful but only within its short range 9in (which is less then deepstrike).
It is unreliable or useless vs most characters since you need to roll OVER a targets toughness on a d6 to kill it. Named like guilliman and the majority of monstrous creatures are safe. most marine named require a 5 or 6 for it to work,
Its best to snipe out guard special/heavy weapons or low level characters, but that's about it.
It will mess up elder and guard named characters with toughness 3.... 50% of the time. It would be like the anti Celestine power.
As you said most people still wouldn't take it over warpath or da jump unless you are facing off against Celestine or some equally brutal toughness 3 named character and good luck getting any of those characters within 9in to use this power.
Eadbanger: On a roll of 4+ the target unit suffers 1 Mortal wound, caster chooses which model. If the mortal wound kills the target every other model within D6 takes a S4 AP- wound, Normal saves allowed.
Yay i just fixed it and made it both useful and hilarious. Picture the targets head exploding and brain casing ripping into his comrades
SemperMortis wrote: Eadbanger: On a roll of 4+ the target unit suffers 1 Mortal wound, caster chooses which model. If the mortal wound kills the target every other model within D6 takes a S4 AP- wound, Normal saves allowed.
Yay i just fixed it and made it both useful and hilarious. Picture the targets head exploding and brain casing ripping into his comrades
The main issue I still see is that 9 inches. We have better ranged weapons like the KMK. Weridboyz are better off using Da Jump to disrupt opponents or Warpath to give boyz a potential 6 attacks on the charge (1+ for greentide, , +1 from Ghaz, +1 from Warpath).
Grot Snipers would be really cool! I always imagined grots would be sneaky infiltrators if left to their own devices. It might be cool if they could deep strike (sneak) in, shoot a whole bunch with their "Surprisingly Dangerous" rule plus maye release some bomb squigs, then the next turn if they haven't all been killed or run away use a stratagem to go back into reserves like Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cultists. Forge World already make a bunch of Grot stuff, so maybe they'll give us Rebel Grots sometimes down the road?
I've been thinking that an ork sniper kit could be fun. I was thinking orks with big rifles that were like single-shot versions of Deffgunz (48", Heavy 1, S7, AP-1, D2). It could be a dual kit, with more primitive gubbinz that could be used to make Snakebite huntas (re-rolls against Monster keyword) or Blood Axe snipers (sniper rule). Probably will never happen, but it would be cool.
'Eadbanger does seem like a total flub of a psychic power. Our other two powers are really great, so overall I'm not complaining. I was thinking similar to what SemperMortis said would be cool. Maybe something that targets the nearest psyker and causes them to suffer a perils of the warp, which if it kills them causes mortal wounds to the units around them? With our own Weirdboyz being hard to counter and also having a decent chance of suffering a perils it woudl be nice and dangerous for eveyone involved with psyker heads popping in burst of green WAAAAGH! energy all over the place.
If they give us a Warphead stratagem similar to the Chapter Master stratagem that lets our Weirdboy pick a second power cast two powers per turn then something situational like 'Eadbanger wouldn't be so bad.
If they give us a Warphead stratagem similar to the Chapter Master stratagem that lets our Weirdboy pick a second power cast two powers per turn then something situational like 'Eadbanger wouldn't be so bad.
Honestly I'd rather spent that on both Da Jump and Warpath. Cast warpath on a unit, jump them behind enemy lines, laugh.
If they give us a Warphead stratagem similar to the Chapter Master stratagem that lets our Weirdboy pick a second power cast two powers per turn then something situational like 'Eadbanger wouldn't be so bad.
Honestly I'd rather spent that on both Da Jump and Warpath. Cast warpath on a unit, jump them behind enemy lines, laugh.
True, that would be better most of the time. It partly depends on how many Weirdboyz are in the list as we can only cast each spell once a turn. If a list has two Weirdboyz (one with Da Jump and one with Warpath) I could see giving one 'Eadbanmger as a second power. On the other hand, maybe giving one of them a duplicate power as a backup would be better.
My last game I actually had my Weirdboy get denied every time but once. It wasn't so bad, because I denied my opponent several times as well. The second to last turn I charged his psyker (some Renegades & Heretics human psyker that I don't know the name of) with my Weirdboy, thinking I was going to stomp him flat as he only had one wound left. My Weirdboy totally whiffed, and the next turn the enemy psyker fell back and pulled off a d6 wounds Smite, killing my Weirdboy dead.
skyfi wrote: Kommando grots, or grot snipers should be a thing !
Agreed!
I got thrashed by Tau yesterday! Good lord it went bad for me all game. My dice were no help at all.
Marker lights seems more powerful now than last edition but I may still be in shock. My Opponent brought 2 stormsurge on his list. Does that sound excessive for a 2000 point game.
Admittedly I did include a few units I had just repainted....Not really the strongest choices.
He made the comment after the game that I should have brought more vehicles, he seems to think he has trouble with vehicles.
It's got me thinking maybe that's not a bad idea. I'll probably load up on wartrakks next time, and try to hold my Boys mobs back out of the way or something. I couldn't win a fight all day...
One thing i noticed lately is gloves are off now. Nobody seems to care about being "modest" anymore such as no LoW unless agreed on or FW for that matter.
Which kinda works for me since i dont have to feel like a dick for fielding a Gargantuan Squiggoth once i get it finished lol.
i'm actually a little nervous it wont be as deadly as it seems considering it has 35W and its one of the few if not the only thing orks cant heal. Its not infantry or biker, so no painboy heals (or FNP for that matter) Its also not a vehicle, so no mek repairs.
Obviously fielding it w/o a KFF is just...dumb...but the sheer spam of D6 damage out there is silly (combined with how impossible it is to get cover if you arent a gunline setup on a building)
SemperMortis wrote: Eadbanger: On a roll of 4+ the target unit suffers 1 Mortal wound, caster chooses which model. If the mortal wound kills the target every other model within D6 takes a S4 AP- wound, Normal saves allowed.
Yay i just fixed it and made it both useful and hilarious. Picture the targets head exploding and brain casing ripping into his comrades
This violates almost half the design goals of 8th... from sniping special models to causing hits with a strength and ap values.
I think the idea is ok though - what you are trying to do is pretty much inflict perils of the warp on a unit of your choice - even if your opponent gets to pick the model, it's still a decent power.
skyfi wrote: Kommando grots, or grot snipers should be a thing !
Agreed!
I got thrashed by Tau yesterday! Good lord it went bad for me all game. My dice were no help at all.
Marker lights seems more powerful now than last edition but I may still be in shock. My Opponent brought 2 stormsurge on his list. Does that sound excessive for a 2000 point game.
Admittedly I did include a few units I had just repainted....Not really the strongest choices.
He made the comment after the game that I should have brought more vehicles, he seems to think he has trouble with vehicles.
It's got me thinking maybe that's not a bad idea. I'll probably load up on wartrakks next time, and try to hold my Boys mobs back out of the way or something. I couldn't win a fight all day...
One thing i noticed lately is gloves are off now. Nobody seems to care about being "modest" anymore such as no LoW unless agreed on or FW for that matter.
Which kinda works for me since i dont have to feel like a dick for fielding a Gargantuan Squiggoth once i get it finished lol.
I think that's a good point. I need to get out of my old think.
I haven't looked at the Stats on the Gargantuan Squigoth yet, I started to repaint it a few years back and haven't got it done. Could be good! Maybe pare that with a buncha fast stuff.
Ork release is rumored .
Now here is a sad thought... we get a new ghaz model, but they give it new rules and they are not as good as the current ghaz rules.
Ork release is rumored .
Now here is a sad thought... we get a new ghaz model, but they give it new rules and they are not as good as the current ghaz rules.
I don't really see that happening. New model, maybe, but if they give him a huge, flashy model (since I think his current one is kinda crap) they'd give him even better rules to boost sales.
If they had an orks and Steel Legion box that was a good deal it would make me really happy. I've always wanted to do a narrative battle based on the story of the large manufactorum on Armageddon that was desperately producing tanks that rolled off the line and went straight to fighting orks in another part of the same manufactorum.
i'd be very, very surprise if they give ghaz a new model and his rules are crap.
If anything, they'd elevate him to primarch status. I mean, technically he should be damn near twice as big as he currently is and thats pretty massive.
Grimskul wrote: As much as I would like that to be true, its from natfka so I wouldn't give it much credence as a rumour.
we know a new codex is coming regardless. We know from Hastings (90%+accuracy) that new war buggies are coming... the gw hint page showed off a tire w spikes that supposedly the wheel of an ork vehicle.
Regardless if it's naftka or not orks are coming....
Grimskul wrote: As much as I would like that to be true, its from natfka so I wouldn't give it much credence as a rumour.
we know a new codex is coming regardless. We know from Hastings (90%+accuracy) that new war buggies are coming... the gw hint page showed off a tire w spikes that supposedly the wheel of an ork vehicle.
Regardless if it's naftka or not orks are coming....
God I hope we get new buggies. They're decent units that I hate the look of.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Grot Snipers would be really cool! I always imagined grots would be sneaky infiltrators if left to their own devices. It might be cool if they could deep strike (sneak) in, shoot a whole bunch with their "Surprisingly Dangerous" rule plus maye release some bomb squigs, then the next turn if they haven't all been killed or run away use a stratagem to go back into reserves like Genestealer Cults or Chaos Cultists. Forge World already make a bunch of Grot stuff, so maybe they'll give us Rebel Grots sometimes down the road?
I'd love some more grot rules and models for the Gretchin, they're such a quirky part of the force with their accuracy I'd love to use them as more than meat-shields
I could kind of imagine something like...
Spoiler:
Pot-shoota (Sniper rules)
Boomstick
-Scatta Shot: D6 Hitroll (Two "1"s on "Roll to Hit" removes the model)
-Eavy Slug: 1 Hitroll (A "1" on "Roll to Hit" removes the model)
And maybe even support units like...
Every Grot Unit can have up to 1 Stray-Squig (A "1" on a "Roll to Hit" deals a wound to the unit)
Every Grot Unit can have up to 3 Snotlings (No morale penalty for death)
But allowing a kommando unit to take up to 2 grot with sharp-shootas would just be neat, I really was disappointed to find that I couldn't give the kommandos more dakka (2 spc.weapons + nob with melee, tops ) to use in cover, and the lack of a melee bonus (even initial) made me rule them out.
Personally I am just hoping GW breaks the cycle of releasing Horrendous Ork codexs and supplements. I went from 4th to 7th begging for a new codex with some better units to use, I got 7th edition codex instead where everything sucked except bikers, Meganobz and Mek Gunz. Then we had the Ghaz V1 release that sucked horribly, then the Grukk Facerippa release which didn't help us, then we got Ghaz V2 which really sucked, I mean our mega formation was so laughably bad that my opponents would give me an extra 100pts just to kit up some of my required units. Finally we got our new Plane which looks cool...and sucks horribly.
I really want this new codex to buff about 3/4ths of the entire current index, give us GOOD clan rules and not utterly nerf the one good thing we have right now which is boyz.
I really want this new codex to buff about 3/4ths of the entire current index, give us GOOD clan rules and not utterly nerf the one good thing we have right now which is boyz.
All my orks are death skulls so I hope to gork we get something decent. Since death skulls are based around tech and luck, I can guess it'll be something like better saves on vehicles or extra rerolls.
I really want this new codex to buff about 3/4ths of the entire current index, give us GOOD clan rules and not utterly nerf the one good thing we have right now which is boyz.
All my orks are death skulls so I hope to gork we get something decent. Since death skulls are based around tech and luck, I can guess it'll be something like better saves on vehicles or extra rerolls.
Maybe a 6+ invulnerable save from the lucky blue paint?
I'm somewhat optimistic about the clan abilities, just because the CSM ones are pretty good. Some seem to be better than others, but I don't think that any of them are punishments in the guise of benefits like the orks seem to often get.
I'm just glad there's going to be representation for Klanz rather than WAAAGH! Ghazghkull being our only source of extra goodies.
The good thing is that stratagems gives them more leeway for giving us fluffy choices without making Klan rulez the end all be all for which one is the most effective.
I really want this new codex to buff about 3/4ths of the entire current index, give us GOOD clan rules and not utterly nerf the one good thing we have right now which is boyz.
All my orks are death skulls so I hope to gork we get something decent. Since death skulls are based around tech and luck, I can guess it'll be something like better saves on vehicles or extra rerolls.
Maybe a 6+ invulnerable save from the lucky blue paint?
I'm somewhat optimistic about the clan abilities, just because the CSM ones are pretty good. Some seem to be better than others, but I don't think that any of them are punishments in the guise of benefits like the orks seem to often get.
Because what we need in the ork faction is another 6+ roll......
I am very jaded I openly admit, but so far those jaded predictions have been about spot on . I PREDICT that The Ork Codex will nerf Ghaz, Boyz and Weirdboy in some way, our PKs will drop maybe 5pts at the most, BC will go up in price 1-2pts and Ork Boyz will either become 1pt more expensive or they will limit the unit sizes to 20.
What I WANT is good/fluffy Klan Rules, a way to play every style of Ork without being at a huge disadvantage (I get sad looking at my 35 Warbikes on the shelf) and for our Codex to be relevant rather then 3/4ths of it being trash, 3/16th useful and 1/16th good.
JohnU wrote: If it makes you feel any better, Matt Ward is back at GW. He loves Orks right? RIGHT?
Wait Matt Ward is back at GW? I thought Ultramarines becoming OP as hell was a mistake
Yeah I Know all about Matt Ward and his child like obsession with ruining every other faction except Ultrasmurfs.
Trust me I am convinced that Matt Ward has some kind of direct line to Phil Kelly (Or whoever wrote the Ork 7th Edition Codex) and that was why we had so many amazing cool units that were missing 1-2 key elements to make them useful.
Examples:
Everyone gets to run and charge during a Waaagh! Except Warbikers and Walkers Mork/Gorkanaught is a huge awesome looking Walker! it dies to a single mental shot and has no guns or CC ability worth mentioning on a 300pt model.
Killa Kanz Grotzooka drops in price! but the Kan itself goes up in price about 50%
Ghaz gets a 2++ during a Waaagh!, we have formations that let us Waaagh every turn! Ghaz isn't allowed to be the Warboss in those formations..WTF!
Ghaz finally gets a formation where he can waaagh every turn! it is so expensive that you aren't competitive
Yesterday I had a game where I switched out two mobs of boyz for two nobz units with each 2 PK, 4 stabbas, a shoota on each of them and 6 ammo runts, so the unit had a total of 18 wounds with basically a 4+ save.
They totally wrecked house. With help of the the nob banner they tore through about 50 daemonettes (three units of 30, though they were shot at first) and two daemon princes. My enemies didn't want to waste their anti-infantry shots on nobz with 4+ when they could kill boyz with 6+ instead, anything with more than 1 damage was just killing a grot each time.
Their shooting was also ok, 12 shots with 6 rerolls tend kill something. Not as good as shootaboyz, but more than nothing.
In total, they pretty much performed just as good as a large squad of boyz, except they were pretty good at handling armored targets. I think I'll keep testing them.
In addition lootaz+nobz+boyz was a pretty good combination. Everything was vulnerable to the same weapons, everything didn't give a damn about the vindicator shells, lascannons and battle cannons on the other side of the table. I think the list needs some tuning, but I think two squads of footslogging nobz are a great addition to any horde.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: I PREDICT that The Ork Codex will nerf Ghaz, Boyz and Weirdboy in some way, our PKs will drop maybe 5pts at the most, BC will go up in price 1-2pts and Ork Boyz will either become 1pt more expensive or they will limit the unit sizes to 20.
Yesterday I had a game where I switched out two mobs of boyz for two nobz units with each 2 PK, 4 stabbas, a shoota on each of them and 6 ammo runts, so the unit had a total of 18 wounds with basically a 4+ save.
They totally wrecked house. With help of the the nob banner they tore through about 50 daemonettes (three units of 30, though they were shot at first) and two daemon princes. My enemies didn't want to waste their anti-infantry shots on nobz with 4+ when they could kill boyz with 6+ instead, anything with more than 1 damage was just killing a grot each time.
Their shooting was also ok, 12 shots with 6 rerolls tend kill something. Not as good as shootaboyz, but more than nothing.
In total, they pretty much performed just as good as a large squad of boyz, except they were pretty good at handling armored targets. I think I'll keep testing them.
In addition lootaz+nobz+boyz was a pretty good combination. Everything was vulnerable to the same weapons, everything didn't give a damn about the vindicator shells, lascannons and battle cannons on the other side of the table. I think the list needs some tuning, but I think two squads of footslogging nobz are a great addition to any horde.
Did you have any KFF protection in your list? I've tried footslogging nobz before (admittedly the first time was using power rating so it's probably not a good indicator of their effectiveness) and they absolutely lit up a terminator squad that tried to assault them with kombi skorchas and the big choppas in the squad did some good work after they were properly engaged. The ammo runts are definitely a must-take, though I debate the usefulness of the power stabbas compared to taking normal choppas, given that I face against daemons and harlequins moreso than MEQ. But even against MEQ the stabbas seem to be overkill since a normal Nob squad should crush most SM units short of thunder shield termies which have a 3+ invuln anyways.
I went for Killsaws rather than PK's for the extra AP and reliability to inflict 2 wounds per hit, I think its worth the extra cost to make sure they do the max amount of damage possible.
So far (using points), my Nobz are made of 4 big choppas, 2 killsaws and any other Nobz that I can fit into the unit have just choppas and shootas (maybe a kombi-skorcha if I have points leftover).
I haven't used them in any mech lists yet, are they worth it in those lists or is just too many eggs in one basket?
Ammo runts make the unit. 4 points to eat those multi-damage shots is essential. I load them out like Grimskul, a couple killsaws and BCs for the rest, keeps them relatively cheap and solid damage output. I'm not against stabbas or slugga/choppa, it just doesn't fill a role I need.
I don't think they're tough enough to walk though. Wheels or Jumping for me. Even an extra turn in a Trukk helps a lot.
I pray our clan bonuses are decent. I'm about to start painting a large batch of orks and I'm considering leaving their jackets unpainted for now so I don't get screwed in case my clan of choice (Goffs) gets the short end of the stick.
JohnU wrote: Ammo runts make the unit. 4 points to eat those multi-damage shots is essential. I load them out like Grimskul, a couple killsaws and BCs for the rest, keeps them relatively cheap and solid damage output. I'm not against stabbas or slugga/choppa, it just doesn't fill a role I need.
I don't think they're tough enough to walk though. Wheels or Jumping for me. Even an extra turn in a Trukk helps a lot.
That's what I'm thinking. Once I have enough boyz painted up, I'll finish my nobz, who'll be taking the trukks now that meganobz are terrible. With the ammo runts, it really doesn't matter if they explode or not.
And I agree with most here about powa stabbas. BCs and PKs (or Killsaws) are just more useful. I think two PKs, 4 Big Choppas, all shootas, two of which are kustom-skorchas, would do nicely. This sits nicely at 266 points, which isn't terrible for 18 wounds with a 4+ armor save, 6 of which don't count for morale.
Of course, I'll have to actually play some games with a horde list first before I figure out how to add other things on. This edition kind of killed my ability to use battlewagons and vehicles en-masse.
What would you guys like to see for shoota boyz as far as a buff to make them good?
When I say good I mean for them to serve in their traditional role of shooting not assaulting. To me 6pts for 2 S4 shots at 18 with a 2/3rd chance to miss isn't really worth it. Deepstriking 30 in range of a tac unit yields you 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds against a 3+ or possibly a 2+ if they are in cover which means 3ish die or 1-2 if they are in cover. I really think they need a 3rd or possibly a 4th shot. Conversely if they could get +1BS for being shoota boyz that would be sweet. That or maybe give them all S5 guns to make them more appealing. what do you guys think?
SemperMortis wrote: What would you guys like to see for shoota boyz as far as a buff to make them good?
When I say good I mean for them to serve in their traditional role of shooting not assaulting. To me 6pts for 2 S4 shots at 18 with a 2/3rd chance to miss isn't really worth it. Deepstriking 30 in range of a tac unit yields you 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds against a 3+ or possibly a 2+ if they are in cover which means 3ish die or 1-2 if they are in cover. I really think they need a 3rd or possibly a 4th shot. Conversely if they could get +1BS for being shoota boyz that would be sweet. That or maybe give them all S5 guns to make them more appealing. what do you guys think?
I tend to take 20/10 slugga/shoota boyz in my squads, and remove wounds according to what I think is needed in the fight. That's still 40 shots after da jump which will catch a wound or two vs MEQ and the shootaz soak the overwatch damage if I'm charging. I also like the flexibility of that squad in a TAC list. Of course I would prefer S4 hitting on 3+ instead of 5+, so choppaz are clearly better than shootaz in a vaccum, but not always. But more importantly, I think discussing 'what would would you guys like to see' is not a tactical discussion, and definitely doesn't make Orkz more competitive. It's just complaining and dreaming. No offence buddy, but I'm a massive lurker in these forums and for me it can get tiresome reading through people talking about 'what they want' instead of 'what to do' with the tools we have.
And on the discussion around Nobz, I find they are good when I'm jumping them. If my opponent lets me squeeze them in the backline so they are charging tanks I have a massive advantage with all the ablative wounds from the ammo runts, the Nobz will likely die but they'll hopefully force some fleeing and reduce their dakka. I like BC's personally, for the cost the reliable damage. If I don't jump them they get crushed by heavy dakka, I don't bring a mechanized list. I'm bringing flashgitz for that slot (roughly the same points as a Nob+BC) next week, I reckon the ammo runt rerolls will be substantially more useful in that crew, but I'm sure I will have to deploy them fairly aggressively so they can be in range without transport/moving. I saw a successful list bring multiple big gunz (kannons) with grotz, supporting a green tide, and I'm hoping the flash gitz will fill a similar roll, but the profile of the kannon is substantially better than a snazzgun IMO. We'll see.
I hope they make Shoota Boyz good. I really like them, but right now Slugga Boyz seem significantly better. (I like to imagine that if I were living in the 40k universe that I'd be a shoota boy, but more likely I'd be an ammo runt. )
Maybe Bad Moons will get Clan ability that lets the advance and shoot Assault Weapons without penalty? Or maybe even that plus move and shoot Heavy Weapons without penalty? On most armies that would be pretty overpowered, but with Ork BS I don't think it would be. I could see that as a Bad Moon warlord trait as well. That wouldn't make them good enough at shooting to have them stand around and fire rather than charging in, it would just make their shooting better while they advance towards the enemy.
They could make Gun Crazy Showoffs a stratagem rather than a 6+ ability of Flash Gitz. I think that would help Flash Gitz and Lootas a lot, but it probably wouldn't be worth it on Shoota Boyz. Maybe they could just make it a 5+ ability on both Flash Gitz and Shoota Boyz? If we had six units of Shoota Boyz it would be going off a couple times a turn.
I don't think either of my suggestions would necessarily make Shoota Boyz as good as Slugga Boyz, but maybe some combination of small buffs would do the trick.
honestly until our codex comes out we've done all the strategizing possible with our limited index. From here on out its all guess work to see whats in our codex.
We don't have anything really useful to talk about now because the only good units in our entire codex are Boyz, Weirdboyz, Stormboyz, Ghaz and a lot of filler stuff that isn't as good as those options but can be taken.
SemperMortis wrote: honestly until our codex comes out we've done all the strategizing possible with our limited index. From here on out its all guess work to see whats in our codex.
We don't have anything really useful to talk about now because the only good units in our entire codex are Boyz, Weirdboyz, Stormboyz, Ghaz and a lot of filler stuff that isn't as good as those options but can be taken.
Then maybe make another thread for speculation?
You're right the consensus is Boyz + Weirdboyz + stuff. But there are lists out there that are still doing interesting things and this thread is still having interesting discussions. 8th is still in its infancy, strategy and meta wise, they are FAQing and errataing almost on a weekly basis. If you've given up on the effectiveness of Orkz that's fine, but I'm here to try to maximise what we've got.
Had a game today. Flash Gitz and Dakkajet did some work and stood out as decent shooting units with BS 4+ and good AP. Boyz obviously put my opponent on his back and Weirdboy was all-star as well. Just a quick side note, I hate how cheap storm shields are on multi-wound models! Total BS
SemperMortis wrote: What would you guys like to see for shoota boyz as far as a buff to make them good?
What about this special ability:
Grot target practice: Whenever a unit of gretchin is within 1" of an enemy model, the gretchin can be targeted by friendly Ork shooting attacks. Apply hits normally to the gretchin, but apply all misses as successful hits on any enemy units within 1" of the gretchin.
That way any Ork can have BS of 3+ at the expense of lots of grots.
I started playing 6 of them with big choppas (or 5 plus an ammo runt if I was short on points) in a trukk shared with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig to dispose of an anti tank unit that has both melee and shooting. 5 tankbustas didn't menage to do their job pretty much eveytime while nobz were decent at melee but not superstars. I ended up with 2x5 tankbustas in the same trukk, cheaper and more effective for the purpose I needed. I'm currently not fielding nobz anymore but they're not terrible, they just don't fit my list which has BW full of boyz as melee units and trukks with bustas as shooty ones. I can drop 1 KMK and 5 bustas in order to spare the points for 5-6 nobz again though, maybe I will give them another try.
I really want this new codex to buff about 3/4ths of the entire current index, give us GOOD clan rules and not utterly nerf the one good thing we have right now which is boyz.
All my orks are death skulls so I hope to gork we get something decent. Since death skulls are based around tech and luck, I can guess it'll be something like better saves on vehicles or extra rerolls.
Maybe a 6+ invulnerable save from the lucky blue paint?
I'm somewhat optimistic about the clan abilities, just because the CSM ones are pretty good. Some seem to be better than others, but I don't think that any of them are punishments in the guise of benefits like the orks seem to often get.
a 6++ would be terrible considering we get at 5++ from the KFF. Maybe a 6+ FNP would be ok, especially if it stacked with the pain boy, and worked for vehicles.
I think that the best loadout for nobs is a big choppa and nine boyz as ablative wounds. A nob with big choppa and ammo runt is 30 points, whereas a nob with bigchoppa and nine boyz is 69 points. More expensive yes, but the boyz can deal out a lot more dakka than the ammo runt. They can soak up more damage too
Grots hit on a 4+. Compared to the orks, they already are sharpshooters KMK's and the like are basically giant ork sniper rifles. Cheap, and have potential for serious damage. Grot's belonging to the artillery units can eat up multi damage weapons nicely, which I find gives them unexpected lifespan.
I have had lots of fun recently with Kommandos and Wartrakks/Buggies as a large part of a first turn base charge list.
All buggies have ere' we go for that charge reroll, which I find to be massive. T5 6W, 4 hits on 3+ in CC, not bad for only 10 points more than a min squad of kommandos. They are mostly great, cheap screens to soak up overwatch. If they live, are serious headaches when mixed among 60+ kommandos
I love this is possible <3
Are you guys having any luck/fun with first turn charge lists?
Prisoner_of_Imagination wrote: Grots hit on a 4+. Compared to the orks, they already are sharpshooters KMK's and the like are basically giant ork sniper rifles. Cheap, and have potential for serious damage. Grot's belonging to the artillery units can eat up multi damage weapons nicely, which I find gives them unexpected lifespan.
I have had lots of fun recently with Kommandos and Wartrakks/Buggies as a large part of a first turn base charge list.
All buggies have ere' we go for that charge reroll, which I find to be massive. T5 6W, 4 hits on 3+ in CC, not bad for only 10 points more than a min squad of kommandos. They are mostly great, cheap screens to soak up overwatch. If they live, are serious headaches when mixed among 60+ kommandos
I love this is possible <3
Are you guys having any luck/fun with first turn charge lists?
1) The grot crew and artillery piece are different units after deployment. The crew cannot eat up damage that targets the gun.
2) How do you charge first turn with a wartrakk? There is, to my knowledge, no way of advancing and charging for vehicles? Or am I mistaken here?
Prisoner_of_Imagination wrote: Grots hit on a 4+. Compared to the orks, they already are sharpshooters KMK's and the like are basically giant ork sniper rifles. Cheap, and have potential for serious damage. Grot's belonging to the artillery units can eat up multi damage weapons nicely, which I find gives them unexpected lifespan.
I have had lots of fun recently with Kommandos and Wartrakks/Buggies as a large part of a first turn base charge list.
All buggies have ere' we go for that charge reroll, which I find to be massive. T5 6W, 4 hits on 3+ in CC, not bad for only 10 points more than a min squad of kommandos. They are mostly great, cheap screens to soak up overwatch. If they live, are serious headaches when mixed among 60+ kommandos
I love this is possible <3
Are you guys having any luck/fun with first turn charge lists?
1) The grot crew and artillery piece are different units after deployment. The crew cannot eat up damage that targets the gun.
2) How do you charge first turn with a wartrakk? There is, to my knowledge, no way of advancing and charging for vehicles? Or am I mistaken here?
2.) Buggies/Trakks have "outflank" so they can appear on any board edge more than 9" from the enemy, so as along as your opponent is withing 9" from some point on a table edge you can assault turn 1.
It is entirely possible for orks to design an army where almost everything can assault turn 1. At 2k points you can easily get 180 orks into charge range if you use a bunch of kommandos. That is without really min-maxing for Kommando drops. Min maxing for drops can get you 220 Orks charging turn 1. It isn't a hugely effective list, but you could do it.
Grimskul wrote:Did you have any KFF protection in your list?
Nope, actually no protection at all. Mad Dok Grotsnik was switched out for a second warphead so I could get another CP for fielding a vanguard. The second warphead killed five noise marines and seven daemonettes, but I also lost a ton of boyz to AP-1 shooting. Still not sure which one would have been better.
Their protection came mostly from two huge blobs being closer to the enemy and lootaz being more dangerous and easier to kill. At first the enemy players shot their defiler and soul grinder at them, but after all their shooting killed four gretchin and single stabba nob, they aimed their gunz at easier to kill targets.
The whole list looked like this (1500 points):
Spoiler:
--Battalion--
Warboss on Bike, PK, attack squig and combi-skorcha
Warphead (Da Jump)
2x 24 choppa boyz with BC nob
1x 30 shoota boyz with BC nob and 3 rokkits
15 lootaz
--Vanguard--
Warphead (Warpath)
2x 6 nobz as above
1 Banner nob
I've tried footslogging nobz before (admittedly the first time was using power rating so it's probably not a good indicator of their effectiveness) and they absolutely lit up a terminator squad that tried to assault them with kombi skorchas and the big choppas in the squad did some good work after they were properly engaged. The ammo runts are definitely a must-take, though I debate the usefulness of the power stabbas compared to taking normal choppas, given that I face against daemons and harlequins moreso than MEQ. But even against MEQ the stabbas seem to be overkill since a normal Nob squad should crush most SM units short of thunder shield termies which have a 3+ invuln anyways.
I didn't know what I would be facing, but yeah it felt like paying 3 points to be worse against daemons. However, the AP -2 was very helpful against the daemon princes and vehicles, as it doubles the wounds that actually get to deal damage.
I went for Killsaws rather than PK's for the extra AP and reliability to inflict 2 wounds per hit, I think its worth the extra cost to make sure they do the max amount of damage possible.
Agree, 3 points for another AP -1 is a steal. The models were equipped with klaws, so I went with that. I didn't miss the saws though, with two klaws and a banner nob nearby, you have a high chance to roll average damage or better anyways, and the extra AP doesn't do anything to stuff with 5++ saves.
So far (using points), my Nobz are made of 4 big choppas, 2 killsaws and any other Nobz that I can fit into the unit have just choppas and shootas (maybe a kombi-skorcha if I have points leftover).
The thing is the 4 big choppas are 24 points over a stabba nob, you might as well field a seventh nob instead.
I gave the list lots of thought before fielding it - the reason boyz are great because you get a wound for 6 points. Stabba nobz are 3 wounds for 24, but you have a 4+ save on two of those wounds, which is only slightly worse against AP-1 than boyz. In exchange you get the ability to field two PK in one unit and have the rest of the unit strike with a decent AP. Since I find myself struggling to take out tough units, I wanted to give it a shot.
I also thought about fielding 6 BC instead (54 points of weaponry instead of 62) but I wanted to see how PKs fare and was lacking the models as most of my BC nobz have been promoted to squad leaders. Might try this next time.
I haven't used them in any mech lists yet, are they worth it in those lists or is just too many eggs in one basket?
The unit I fielded was 188 points, that's not that many eggs I don't have a decent game with BW nobz to show yet though, either the games ended early or something weird happened and the results were skewed because of that (like a librarian blowing up turn 2 and taking out half the fire base).
JohnU wrote:Ammo runts make the unit. 4 points to eat those multi-damage shots is essential. I load them out like Grimskul, a couple killsaws and BCs for the rest, keeps them relatively cheap and solid damage output. I'm not against stabbas or slugga/choppa, it just doesn't fill a role I need.
I don't think they're tough enough to walk though. Wheels or Jumping for me. Even an extra turn in a Trukk helps a lot.
Well, a unit of boyz ist 180 for 31 wounds. A unit of nobz is 210 for 30 wounds, with 20 of them having a 4+ save. If boyz are good enough to walk, so are nobz. They are basically 'ard boyz for 30 extra points - you just need to keep their equipment cheap enough so that shooting boyz instead of them is an actual option for your opponent.
I followed the advice I read on this thread and put all single damage wounds that I could roll a 4+ or 5+ save for on nobz instead of killing gretchin right away. Worked like a charm - even SemperMortis' ultimate nightmare, the Lascannon Predator, started shooting lootaz instead of nobz because he was sick of blowing up 4 point gretchin with 25 point guns, while half the bolter rounds bounced of the 4+ armor.
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Breng77 wrote: It is entirely possible for orks to design an army where almost everything can assault turn 1. At 2k points you can easily get 180 orks into charge range if you use a bunch of kommandos. That is without really min-maxing for Kommando drops. Min maxing for drops can get you 220 Orks charging turn 1. It isn't a hugely effective list, but you could do it.
You still need 9" to make those charges, and if your opponent is not a complete idiot, he will force you away from his valuable units through deployment. By now everybody is expecting Da Jump with 30 boyz in turn 1.
In my game yesterday (Search and Destroy deployment) there was no place in their deployment zone of place even a single kopta.
Prisoner_of_Imagination wrote: Grots hit on a 4+. Compared to the orks, they already are sharpshooters KMK's and the like are basically giant ork sniper rifles. Cheap, and have potential for serious damage. Grot's belonging to the artillery units can eat up multi damage weapons nicely, which I find gives them unexpected lifespan.
I have had lots of fun recently with Kommandos and Wartrakks/Buggies as a large part of a first turn base charge list.
All buggies have ere' we go for that charge reroll, which I find to be massive. T5 6W, 4 hits on 3+ in CC, not bad for only 10 points more than a min squad of kommandos. They are mostly great, cheap screens to soak up overwatch. If they live, are serious headaches when mixed among 60+ kommandos
I love this is possible <3
Are you guys having any luck/fun with first turn charge lists?
1) The grot crew and artillery piece are different units after deployment. The crew cannot eat up damage that targets the gun.
2) How do you charge first turn with a wartrakk? There is, to my knowledge, no way of advancing and charging for vehicles? Or am I mistaken here?
Good point about the Mek Guns. The way I was interpreting "From that point on each Mek Gun and each 5-model
group of Grot Gunners acts as a single unit," was that the grots and the mek gun are a single unit :S.. Still Shaking off some habits from 7th edition Thanks for correcting me! :
Yes Buggies and Trakks had "outflank" called "outriders" now that allows them to deploy 9" away, but they have to be touching a table edge.
It actually looks really cool on the table to have a unit of warbuggies on each flank with the kommandos deploying in between them. Granted thats not always the best deployment for every mission but... pretty
For rolling the 9, its roughly 27% chance to hit at least a 9 on 2D6. Given that we have a 2dice reroll, or a single command point reroll, you could, hopefully (if not reasonably) assume that 50% of your charging units get in.
Smart players will force you to deploy only on infront of them ( if possible), hiding their juicy targets, but starting the turn off killing things is also good. Many high value targets rely on support units. In my thought, if they are a gun line list hiding their high value tanks, we are going to get shot at anyways, so Id rather the chance of having my own mini-assualt phase alpha strike to start things off. Also, reducing the volume of shots coming your way from chaff units helps a lot. Expensive targets have a chance of being kitted out to deal with vehicles, as opposed to the quantity of boys the orks can provide, not always tho.. just saying
So reconsidering options has me rereading the index. Has anyone had any experience with zzap guns? Ap3 with 3 damage is a pretty good profile and with them all being separate units you can dedicate one shot at a time at targets before moving on to the next. 180 points for six is cheap and building them is as simple as raiding the hardware store or IGHW teams.
i suspect LOS will be a problem depending on terrain since all of the official terrain (not sure how many people use those) tend to be quite narrow for anything that isnt a typical infantry to sit on.
pismakron wrote: How do you kit out your kommandos? 5-man squads with burnas? Big shootas?
I've tried 3-4 units of 5 dudes with only free upgrades. 2 regular kommandos, 2 dudes with burna and a nob with slugga & choppa. If you expect to go second anyway they can be quite useful. I haven't tried a big squad with or without snikrot though. But they look quite expensive in large squads and since you may want them on later turns I don't know if you can afford a single unit that costs that many points that stays out of the game for several turns.
Breng77 wrote: It is entirely possible for orks to design an army where almost everything can assault turn 1. At 2k points you can easily get 180 orks into charge range if you use a bunch of kommandos. That is without really min-maxing for Kommando drops. Min maxing for drops can get you 220 Orks charging turn 1. It isn't a hugely effective list, but you could do it.
You still need 9" to make those charges, and if your opponent is not a complete idiot, he will force you away from his valuable units through deployment. By now everybody is expecting Da Jump with 30 boyz in turn 1.
In my game yesterday (Search and Destroy deployment) there was no place in their deployment zone of place even a single kopta.
Which is why I said it isn't hugely effective. That said 180-220 orks 9" away from your opponent turn 1 would be tough to deal with. You could also bring them in in waves etc. Removing the wrap with the first wave and then bringing in the second. It is subject though to failing key charges, which is why it isn't over powering.
pismakron wrote: How do you kit out your kommandos? 5-man squads with burnas? Big shootas?
I've tried 3-4 units of 5 dudes with only free upgrades. 2 regular kommandos, 2 dudes with burna and a nob with slugga & choppa. If you expect to go second anyway they can be quite useful. I haven't tried a big squad with or without snikrot though. But they look quite expensive in large squads and since you may want them on later turns I don't know if you can afford a single unit that costs that many points that stays out of the game for several turns.
yeah I considered doing 2-3 big squads and Snikrot, then Da jumping a banner up with them to have a bunch of 2+ re-rolling orks. The problem is they don't really hit harder than the same points in boyz would because they have fewer attacks. They also have no durability so they would wipe a unit and get killed. They really need better shooting options so they can make use of their cover bonus. I also have considered 2 big shootas on a small squad to sit on an objective, but I always end up removing the big shootas for need of points elsewhere in my list.
Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.
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Hades wrote: So reconsidering options has me rereading the index. Has anyone had any experience with zzap guns? Ap3 with 3 damage is a pretty good profile and with them all being separate units you can dedicate one shot at a time at targets before moving on to the next. 180 points for six is cheap and building them is as simple as raiding the hardware store or IGHW teams.
The issue to some extent is the random strength. The random strength has me worried that I would miss with my good strength shots, and hit with my S2 shots. They are less random than some things, but kannons seem better at S8 -2 D6 damage. It has worse Ap but mostly better damage, and as good or better Strength 72% of the time unless I'm blowing CP re-rolls on the random strength.
Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.
I don't think they should be more deadly in shooting or close combat, they should only be more durable. It would be nice and appropriate if snikrot gives them a buff like a +3 to their save.
Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.
I don't think they should be more deadly in shooting or close combat, they should only be more durable. It would be nice and appropriate if snikrot gives them a buff like a +3 to their save.
I would like them to have a static +2 to their cover bonus, but an option for them to take shootas would allow them to better use the bonus in the first place. Or if their boss Nob could take shooty options. A squad with 3 Rokkits might be worth it as a suicide squad.
I'm surprised that I don't hear more about Snikrot on this thread. He's the cheapest Character and brings some decent buffs to arguably our best unit. Plus his model is amazing!
I like him but he doesn't mesh well with the current point of kommandos which are cheap distraction units. His aoe ability is okay but isn't a huge help. He is not especially Killy and he still costs more then a squad of 5extra kommandos. Honestly he would be taken more if he gave all blood axe kommandos within 6in +1 cover sv or of his Melee wpns had a better profile.
The other big issue which will get worse with the codex is he is going to screw up any clan tactics being the ONLY character who doesn't work well with other clans.
I have a feeling the majority of army lists will be evil suns (zhardsnark) or goff (ghazskull, zagstruk, buzzgrob). Unless bloodaxes (snikrot) or deathskulls (mad doc) have a phenomenal clan tactic or relics you likely won't see those clans too often.
There really isn't a lot to talk about now until we get some FAQs or new datasheets from fw or a new codex. But I'm hopeful gw can turn this ship around since we do have a good base to build on now with strong boys, strong psykers, strong characters. It's just our vehicles, some elite units and shooting units that need a boost.
Nobz question.... (I do love some Nobz...). I see the multi wound on runts, single on a Nob plan. Rules are that you allocate all wounds on an already wounded model till he's dead, yes? So that one bolt that gets through the Nob armour is gonna cost you that Nob one way or another right? I've been sticking all wounds on runts regardless of source with that thought in mind.
It's situational ofc, all depends on the volume and source of fire directed at them but still, I'm wondering how allocating singles on the Nobz actually pays off. It's a risk innit?
Incidentally, I really like my little group of combi rokkit Nobz. Obviously they're waaaay too expensive to be competitive but they're like super tankbustas. Rerolls on everything, ablative wounds etc. I put them in a wagon with my 5 bustas (that's all I have) and love the extra multi situational punch they have.
Don't match up to the 6 combi skorcha Nobz in the Supa Skorcha Big Trakk (the Fire Engine) ofc, but hey...
You can always kill 1 nob with bolter wounds etc. to use the good armour save.
With only 1 loss you are imune to morale and keep the ammo runts a bit longer.
Depends on mobsize and wargear.
If you have a wounded nob you have to allocate all wounds to him.
A good opponent will kill the ammo runts with cheap stuff before getting the LasCa`s ready for the nobs.
v0iddrgn wrote: I'm surprised that I don't hear more about Snikrot on this thread. He's the cheapest Character and brings some decent buffs to arguably our best unit. Plus his model is amazing!
The issue with him is whenever I consider taking him my thought is, is he better than another weirdboy or KFF mek (if I need an HQ) or a Painboy, or 10 boyz, or 5 commandos and extra points.
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gungo wrote: I like him but he doesn't mesh well with the current point of kommandos which are cheap distraction units. His aoe ability is okay but isn't a huge help. He is not especially Killy and he still costs more then a squad of 5extra kommandos. Honestly he would be taken more if he gave all blood axe kommandos within 6in +1 cover sv or of his Melee wpns had a better profile.
The other big issue which will get worse with the codex is he is going to screw up any clan tactics being the ONLY character who doesn't work well with other clans.
I have a feeling the majority of army lists will be evil suns (zhardsnark) or goff (ghazskull, zagstruk, buzzgrob). Unless bloodaxes (snikrot) or deathskulls (mad doc) have a phenomenal clan tactic or relics you likely won't see those clans too often.
There really isn't a lot to talk about now until we get some FAQs or new datasheets from fw or a new codex. But I'm hopeful gw can turn this ship around since we do have a good base to build on now with strong boys, strong psykers, strong characters. It's just our vehicles, some elite units and shooting units that need a boost.
He is an ok buff to big Kommando units, but those units are not durable enough to make that a huge deal. His biggest advantage to me is as an untargetable relic caddy that can grab it turn 1 and get Da jumped back on the same turn or as an untargetable objective holder. He is also decent against vehicles if he can charge, but not amazing.
As for the screwing up clan tactics that really isn't an issue as if you really wanted to use him for his buff you just take a blood axe vanguard detachment for him and his commandos while your other stuff is in a different clan in a different detachment. I think this will be popular way to organize armies by taking best advantage of clan tactics for models with a specific role. For instance if goffs get say +2" to their charge rolls, and Blood axes are -1 to hit for models more than 12" away, you won't take goff lootas you will take blood axe lootas to sit in your back field with more durability.
Grotrebel wrote: You can always kill 1 nob with bolter wounds etc. to use the good armour save.
With only 1 loss you are imune to morale and keep the ammo runts a bit longer.
Depends on mobsize and wargear.
If you have a wounded nob you have to allocate all wounds to him.
A good opponent will kill the ammo runts with cheap stuff before getting the LasCa`s ready for the nobs.
I did try this earlier against a deep struck Deathwing squad. Lost 2 fresh Nobz to the 1st 5 boltgun wounds, my remaining runts to the next 3 (2 went down with the wagon) and a 3rd Nob on a final pair of armour fails. Even had Mad Doks 6++ nearby. I figured I'd carry on to the 2nd Nob thinking the 4+ will kick in soon. So much for save rolls, lol.
Did see the logic of the tactic in table top potential tho
Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..
The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.
kowbasher wrote: Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..
The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.
Sucky rules are sucky. I'm hoping they go back to hull/body of model and weapons/ornaments are excluded for LOS.
I just played a 1500 point game against some Primaris Raven Guard, and basically had my boyz tabled at the top of turn 1...
Completely obliterated by "Deep Striking" Raven Guard (Stratagem) Aggressors. Each Aggressor puts out 12 + 2D6STR 4 shots, and they come in squads of 3-6.
How do you even play around something like that?
Also, same opponent says that Space Marines can use Auspex Scan against Da Jump'ed boys. Does that sound right?
Just bring 3 BWs full of boyz and ghaz. You'll likely get first turn and SM anti infantry weapons would be wasted.
I know green tides are more effective overall but it seems that the game is going toward an anti infantry meta since many players fear hordes. Against tons of anti tank weapons mechanized orks lists would struggle a lot but what I currently see is mostly a spam of twin assault cannons, bolter shots, poisoned shots, lasguns.... I don't bring tons of dark lances myself with my DE since against too many possible and common lists they would be invalidated.
kowbasher wrote: Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..
The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.
Grotsnik might help since he gets his 5+ from his rules then the 6+ from dok tools against mortal wounds. In any case, rangers are pretty terrible at killing mobs of boyz, deff dreads, nauts or battlewagons. Depending on how well his flyers do at killing those, that might be a solution.
ajax_xaja wrote: How do you even play around something like that?
By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.
I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...
Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.
A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.
Could be a real problem for orks.
I think there is a number of approaches:
1) Always use a CP and try to seize initiative twice. Unless playing nids
2) Consider deploying your characters in a trukk to reduce the number of drops. A greentide list can be as low as 7 drops this way.
3) If you have many drops consider screening your bigger squads. In my current green tide list i have 3 30 Boyz squad and 12-15 ten Boyz squads. If I see lots of deepstrikers i can screen my packed blobs with spaced out min-squads. That way he will waste his rapid fire on a 10-boy squad. That won't work against agressors though, because a 6" screen will hurt you too much.
4) If you use KFF and/or painboy, it is pretty straight forward to deploy in a way so that the buff reaches all Boyz. If he deepstrikes his agressor squad and kills 15 Boyz rather than 30, then his agressor squad has not paid for itself.
5) Always remember to drop a comment about the primaris agressors being butt-ugly.
6) Mech or walker lists hard counters agressors but are pretty vulnerable to a lot of other stuff.
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ajax_xaja wrote: I just played a 1500 point game against some Primaris Raven Guard, and basically had my boyz tabled at the top of turn 1...
Completely obliterated by "Deep Striking" Raven Guard (Stratagem) Aggressors. Each Aggressor puts out 12 + 2D6STR 4 shots, and they come in squads of 3-6.
How do you even play around something like that?
Also, same opponent says that Space Marines can use Auspex Scan against Da Jump'ed boys. Does that sound right?
Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6str 4 shots?
ajax_xaja wrote: How do you even play around something like that?
By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.
I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...
Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.
A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.
Could be a real problem for orks.
Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.
As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.
As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save.
How did you get this numbers? If i get it right, every aggressor kills 5-6 orks. 6-7 if he gets re-rolls of 1-s to hit from a captain. So, a squad of 3 kills ~20 boyz. If there's no boss nearby, the rest will run away. But you should really have a boss near a blob.
Every aggressor kills 5,3 boyz without cover. This drops to 4,3 with a painboy present. How many points does an agressor with bolter mantlet and grenade launcher cost?
As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save.
How did you get this numbers? If i get it right, every aggressor kills 5-6 orks. 6-7 if he gets re-rolls of 1-s to hit from a captain. So, a squad of 3 kills ~20 boyz. If there's no boss nearby, the rest will run away. But you should really have a boss near a blob.
How do you get that they have 6 + D6 shots each, so that is an average of 9.5 shots. Hitting on 3s gets ~6.33 hits, or 2.64 unsaved wounds. So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds. Unless they are your only squad of boyz they are still LD 30 and won't care about morale at all. If they also have a captain infiltrating or deepstriking that improves them a bit more, but morale still isn't an issue unless they cripple all your boyz mobs and you don't have a boss near by. So it would take them firing 4 times to wipe a single squad in all likelihood. Assuming they have range to do so for all the shooting rounds. lets put it this way, if you deploy intelligently the best any number of Aggressors will do is wipe a single Mob regardless of any support , and then all of them will get assaulted turn 1 by your Boyz. If you have multiple mobs you should be able to easily wipe out the character and 2-3 Agressor squads so it seems like a good trade to me as each aggressor squad is about the cost of a single mob of boyz.
pismakron wrote: Every aggressor kills 5,3 boyz without cover. This drops to 4,3 with a painboy present. How many points does an agressor with bolter mantlet and grenade launcher cost?
ajax_xaja wrote: How do you even play around something like that?
By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.
I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...
Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.
A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.
Could be a real problem for orks.
Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.
As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.
Reinforcements reads "units set up mid-turn", wiith no specification of units coming in from reserve. FWIW, the way you're reading it is exactly how I interpreted it, but RAW seem to indicate otherwise. Would love to hear more feedback on this as well.
Aggressors get 2x (6 + D6) shots when they're remaining stationary. Because of the RG Chapter Tactic, they're deploying, not deep striking or moving. That's a guaranteed stationary salvo of shots.
I think your math's a little off, a unit of 3 aggressors under the RG chapter tactic will always be deploying (not deepstriking, so no movement) in the optimal position, so getting their 2x shots. My math also indicates around 5-6 orks dying on average per aggressor, meaning you're losing 15-18 orks out of your unit. The rest are going down to morale.
ajax_xaja wrote: How do you even play around something like that?
By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.
I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...
Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.
A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.
Could be a real problem for orks.
Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.
As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.
Reinforcements reads "units set up mid-turn", wiith no specification of units coming in from reserve. FWIW, the way you're reading it is exactly how I interpreted it, but RAW seem to indicate otherwise. Would love to hear more feedback on this as well.
Aggressors get 2x (6 + D6) shots when they're remaining stationary. Because of the RG Chapter Tactic, they're deploying, not deep striking or moving. That's a guaranteed stationary salvo of shots.
I think your math's a little off, a unit of 3 aggressors under the RG chapter tactic will always be deploying (not deepstriking, so no movement) in the optimal position, so getting their 2x shots. My math also indicates around 5-6 orks dying on average per aggressor, meaning you're losing 15-18 orks out of your unit. The rest are going down to morale.
It states that units have the ability to be set up mid turn. Da Jump isn't a unit ability to be set up mid turn. Both also say arrive on the battlefield. Units using Da Jump don't arrive, they were already on the battlefield. Da Jump does not say that the target unit counts as being reinforcements. Assuming they do is implying that any unit moving by "deepstrike" is arriving by reinforcements. reinforcements is also refered to on p.215 in the tactical reserves section (which amends the general reinforcement rules) still says arrives mid game or mid turn.
As for Aggressors, you should never lose a boyz mob to morale unless it is your only one and unsupported by a boss. Even if they kill 18 orks, 18+D6 - 12 means you are only losing the rest of the squad on a 6. But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30 and don't care about 18 losses, if you have a warboss you just lose D3 orks. Or failing both, you pay CP to pass morale and save the unit.
There is absolutely no guarantee of a second salvo of shots unless they are within 18" of at least 10 orks. Otherwise you could remove those in range before the second salvo. You can also deploy smaller units to push the aggressors back so they don't have range except to a small unit or say a battlewagon.
it is a strong tactic, but it is just as easy to defend against as any other deepstriking unit.
I certainly agree with you on the Auspex issue, but I think it's something that needs to be FAQ'ed, as it's a little ambiguous.
For the record, recent FAQ regarding the Tau Early Warning System:
Q: Can models with an early warning override Support System
use it to shoot at units that use psychic powers such as Gate of
Infinity or Da Jump to set up within 12"?
A: Yes.
Early Warning Override and Auspex Scanner are worded very similarly. The deciding factor here is going to be whether or not Da Jump counts as reinforcements.
Anybody had any luck with dakkajets? im kinda afraid to even bother since theyre kinda squishy and -1 to hit is nothing for a shooty army. Kinda expect them to just go poof
Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.
They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.
I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and
Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.
But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.
fe40k wrote: Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.
They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.
I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and
Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.
But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.
So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
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fe40k wrote: Dakkajets
...murder marines in cover.
A dakkajet kills 2 marines in cover. I'd not call it MURDER. It's still handy and can be used to either start putting damage on more expensive stuff orks can't generally reach - like devastators - or kill this couple bauble wrap models that prevent your boyz from getting to the enemy. Dakkajet will likely not pay off in a way of how much pts it can kill but it's more of an almost guaranteed way of putting a couple wounds wherever you need them.
A dakkajet kills 2 marines in cover. I'd not call it MURDER. It's still handy and can be used to either start putting damage on more expensive stuff orks can't generally reach - like devastators - or kill this couple bauble wrap models that prevent your boyz from getting to the enemy. Dakkajet will likely not pay off in a way of how much pts it can kill but it's more of an almost guaranteed way of putting a couple wounds wherever you need them.
You're right - the math doesn't look too amazing on marines in cover.
But that's 2 Devastators (captain+weapon) minimum (on average, PLUS in cover), before you factor in the power of variance. Ork shooting, particularly dakkajets, have the ability to spike really high due to the amount of dice they roll. They also can whiff - but any shooting can do that, and dakkajets have the power of averages on their side due to the number of dice they use.
It's easy for a dakkajet to take down its weight in devastators in a single turn, and survive pretty decently thanks to the -1 to hit. Throw in another juicy target (Gorkanaut/Battlewagon), and they'll be hard pressed to deliver enough firepower onto both targets to kill them together in the same turn.
I'm not saying they're the bestest most powerful unit in the world, but they're very solid.
And this is on marines - on Eldar/Guardsman, the numbers go up significantly thanks to S6 vs S3 and -1Sv on a 4+/5+ armor save; Eldar units aren't cheap, but our dakka jets are.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
They can only use the stratagem, once, no?
As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.
But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30
Is this how it works? I've been playing that you can use the leadership of nearby units but not their model counts.
Does anybody have any advice out buggy weapon choices, is it still all Rokkits all the time? Does the same hold true for Killa Kans?
I've played KMB on kanz once so far, it's cheaper than rokkits and somewhat sttronger. Rolling 1's is not as much an issue as you would think, and you can even stat wound allocation shenanigans if you mange to get two kanz wounded.
Might be an option, I wouldn't start tearing models apart before the codex hits though. Luckily all my kanz are magnetized.
Well you do, but at the same time the nearby unit's leadership is its model count, making the nearby unit Ld30 (or whatever their model count is).
I see where you are coming from, I thought it said you could replace your leadership stat with model count when taking morale tests but it would appear it is across the board.
Weird as this makes any Psychic power that requires a leadership clash very poor against big boyz mobs haha! (Or even those standing next to them)
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I've played KMB on kanz once so far, it's cheaper than rokkits and somewhat sttronger. Rolling 1's is not as much an issue as you would think, and you can even stat wound allocation shenanigans if you mange to get two kanz wounded.
Might be an option, I wouldn't start tearing models apart before the codex hits though. Luckily all my kanz are magnetized.
Thanks for the advice, all my kanz are the old metal ones and they didn't come with an option for the KMB so I'll stick with the Rokkits over Big Shootas as long as they aren't too rubbish!
Like you say, no one enjoys tearing apart models and I don't like magnetising weapon options.
So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
They don't always shoot twice, that assumes that their first round of shooting doesn't take them out of range or LOS for the second round. But yes it is likely they will shoot twice. There is a pretty strong guarantee that if they are in range for shooting twice that they will die in the assault first turn. Doing 6 wounds to a T5 3+ save unit is pretty trivial. As for multiple such squads they really have diminishing returns beyond pushing your orks back in deployment. If you are smart all the squads will only have range to a single unit of boyz, at most barely 2. So it would be overkill. I don't see how they will whittle down a flank when it is easy to dictate exactly where they can go if they want to be effective, and that will be in charge range of the rest of the army. They are annoying but not a huge deal. at least not any more than plenty of other units.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
They can only use the stratagem, once, no?
As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.
If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
They can only use the stratagem, once, no?
As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.
If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.
Hm, yeah, I can see that. So in essence, Raven Guard, can deepstrike a large number of units. These units will be setup before the seize roll, The units arrive nine inch away from enemy troops, and can then move and shoot and charge as normal. This seems just a little broken. I mean, you could kit out a ton of flamers, move into couple of inches away and then shoot and charge. Or you could take powerfists on a risk free charge against his vehicles.
Imagine how good da jump would be, if you could move the jumped unit after it was set up.
But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.
They can only use the stratagem, once, no?
As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.
If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.
Hm, yeah, I can see that. So in essence, Raven Guard, can deepstrike a large number of units. These units will be setup before the seize roll, The units arrive nine inch away from enemy troops, and can then move and shoot and charge as normal. This seems just a little broken. I mean, you could kit out a ton of flamers, move into couple of inches away and then shoot and charge. Or you could take powerfists on a risk free charge against his vehicles.
Imagine how good da jump would be, if you could move the jumped unit after it was set up.
I mean you need to commit to doing so during deployment, and your opponent can deploy to counter it. You also need to do so without knowing you have first turn, so if you don't get first turn you end up setting them up somewhere further away. It is definitely powerful and probably should cost 2 CP to use.
fe40k wrote: Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.
They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.
I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and
Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.
But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.
i'll have to try it out then.
Currently i have just shy of 450pts dedicated to a wagon of tankbustas. Its just too easy to pop for how much damage they do.....if i shed them for 1-2 dakkajets i can also bring a third deffdread more than likely (might have to shed something else but 2painboyz definitely not a good idea) (already got a KFF mek anyway)
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
I usually shoot them at anything that has 1 wound or that has a save of 3+ or worse (including cover) and T6 or less. Marines in cover still get their 3+ save against them, but their are your best shot to removing them before combat.
Against most non-MEQ armies you tend to have more obvious targets, as the are pretty good at grinding down horde units (boyz, gaunts, conscripts) and bubble wraps(kroot, horrors) or weakening combat experts that rely on high damage instead of good defense gene stealers or daemonettes.
Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?
Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
are you trying to find a gorkanaut in a store? or for a certain price? A quick look on both amazon and ebay showed multiples available at near or below retail price.
grendel083 wrote: Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?
Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )
Sorry on the dice problems there.
On my opponents turn, I group my dice by how many attacks each model gets in the next assault. If 15 boys are in, I grab 15 stacks of dice, etc.
Of course, removing misses (rather than picking up hits) helps too. I often will pass my wound dice to my opponent for them to roll saves on. It really does save us from counting things until you are actually dealing damage.
grendel083 wrote: Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?
Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )
Bring a special group of dice for the entire mob, then remove 4 each time an ork dies, then remove 20 when you lose the extra bonus.
Or
Bring a set of 29 dice (assuming nob) for mob rolling, and remove one for each loss, then roll once for each attack.
grendel083 wrote: Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?
Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )
What i do is figure out how many attacks each model attacking has and just grab that many of dice as i count. As in, slugga/choppa boyz with 22 models get 4 attacks and 16 can actually attack, so i grab 16 sets of 4 dice.
I dont really have to math it at that point. And it saves me for when i get a lot more attacks than i can roll dice, i just remember "This is 10 boyz i still got 6 left to roll for"
Hey guys. I've only been playing since 8th was dropped, and inherited a small (very small) ork army from a friend. With the blessings of my friends, I've been proxying a lot of stuff until I can find what works and dedicate some money to it.
I've skipped about 50+pages of this thread as I didn't want to be here until Christmas, so I apologize if this was mentioned before.
The most effective thing I found so far was kitting 10 Nobz with kombi scorchas and stabbas, and throwing them in a trukk with a Warboss (also scorcha) and Waaagh banner. Expensive as hell, but averaging 40ish auto hits a turn plus a few from the hail mary shoota shots. That's been enough to kill Chimeras in a single turn, or barbecue an entire squads of Guard or Termagaunts. Once the Truckk takes a few hits, they bail and go stab something.
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
I have ran three dakkajet with a walker list. They are for shooting single wound models IMO. One notable game I deleted a Dev squad w/Missile Launchers in cover turn one then another one on turn two, then flew a remaining jet off the table for 2 victory points. These two squads were rerolling misses and would have devastated my walkers as they advanced. The dakkajets added meaningful shooting vs. 1W marines and then they soaked up shooting that would have otherwise dusted my kanz off the board (though I got shot off the table in that game before it was over anyways, that was more of series of idiot mistakes on my part in strategy, and list building. One thing is true, they do get removed from the board like anyother ork model. Coordinate putting them into dangerous enemy fire the same turn as everything else if you can. The amount of rerolls this edition make the hard to hit modifier at least cause some unrerollable misses (3's become the new for marines, as an example)
A thought about list building from a fellow ork with a mekmob; This edition, I think there are two types of Mek Mobz, one with just Kanz, Deff Dreadz, and maybe planes the other with several Gork/Morkanaugts . I feel that, if you field a T5-T7 model, it should have the same wound profile as whatever else you are fielding. I say this, because with the Kanz and Deff Dreadz, when Las was fired at them, it helped to be able to take large damage shots on Kanz with one or two wounds left, and smaller damage shots on kanz with more wounds. In this way, you could cause some inefficiency in opponent shooting (overkill). If you present a target, like a Gorkanaught or Battlewagon, the opponent's dice gains efficiency because his Las Cannonz can fire on one target with little concern about overkill. Whereas, when forced to fire at Kanz, you can cause large overkill on individual kanz by intelligent allocation of wounds. (Edit, this is not wound shenanigans. When presented with 3 successful Lascannon wounds 6, 1, 2, and you take the 1 and 2 first, then take the 6, you cause one kan to be overkilled. Whereas, if you took the 6 first a second kan in the squad would have to take the 1 and 2. I hope this prevented confusion).
This is, unless my opponent and I were allocating things incorrectly, I'm still nailing down the rules and faq's this Ed.
On measuring dice, I use the chessex boxes as measuring cups, with 9/18/27/36 dice depending on how many layers. Other than that I try to pre-stage banks of dice during the opponents turn...ie if I know a 22 strong blob of shootas will shoot first, I collect 44 dice.
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
Dakkajets are the exact opposite of "Cheap" they are in fact over priced dramatically. They should be about 50pts cheaper when fully equipped, 18 S6 shots averages 9 hits. Against T4 that is 6 wounds. Against Guard thats 5 dead models, or put another way. You just used a 150pt unit to kill 15-20pts of guardsmen. Even if you catch a SMTac squad in the open that is only going to net you about 3 Dead Marines for less then 50pts.
Dakkajets as mentioned somewhere else are fit perfectly between two realms and are good at neither of them. They aren't good at killing high value models with good armor, and they aren't good at removing low value hordes. ironically, a SM Tactical squad has about the same chance of killing a Dakkajet as the dakkajet does of killing the tactical squad, let that sink in. (if armed with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher).
As far as Kommandos/Snikrot are concerned. They suffer the same problem as regular boyz but are 50% more expensive for it. They aren't durable enough. If you put a 10-20man Kommando unit behind enemy lines and it fails its charge then you just lost 90-180pts MINIMUM, and if you are investing points into Snikrot you are probably taking a couple units of that size which means you have invested at the least 200pts into a throw away distraction unit that at that points level is not hard to kill and too expensive for what little it can do.
Kommanos/Stormboyz should be priced at 7pts per model. Burnas should be 9ppm and Tankbustas around 11-12. Lootas should be 10 at the ABSOLUTE MOST!.
basically all of our infantry units are over priced, and if they specialize in something they are probably MASSIVELY over priced. The reason that Stormboyz/Kommandos see game time is because they are the units that have the closest price to regular boyz while also gaining some kind of extra utility.
Burnas/Tankbustas are just ridiculously expensive. 3x the cost of a boy, dies exactly as easy, not much deadlier. Requires a battlewagon + KFF to even attempt to use them, 3-4 deffdreads would do much more work than they would (so far thats the only nonboyz thing im impressed with, multiple deffdreads behind a KFF is sickening). Kanz are doing work too, ironically, but i kinda wanna swap off of rokkits. Not sure what other weapon to use though since they lack the Heavy ignoring rule so i really dont like the idea of grotzookas atm I've had mild success with Meganobz, but the issue is its too easy to pop our transports so they get left stranded alot. IF they actually get combat, they butcher things. Still think footnobz are horribly overcosted though.
The dakkajet felt cheap. But as you point out with the math its not cheap at all.
Burnas/Tankbustas are just ridiculously expensive. 3x the cost of a boy, dies exactly as easy, not much deadlier. Requires a battlewagon + KFF to even attempt to use them, 3-4 deffdreads would do much more work than they would (so far thats the only nonboyz thing im impressed with, multiple deffdreads behind a KFF is sickening). Kanz are doing work too, ironically, but i kinda wanna swap off of rokkits. Not sure what other weapon to use though since they lack the Heavy ignoring rule so i really dont like the idea of grotzookas atm I've had mild success with Meganobz, but the issue is its too easy to pop our transports so they get left stranded alot. IF they actually get combat, they butcher things. Still think footnobz are horribly overcosted though.
The dakkajet felt cheap. But as you point out with the math its not cheap at all.
If you ever wonder if something we have is over priced/under costed just compare it to an Imperial Equivalent.
So that Dakkajet is 150pts for 18 S6 shots, the Stormraven has 2 S8 -3AP Damage 3 Missile Launchers, 12 S6 -1 Damage 1 shots, 6 S5 -1 Damage 1 shots and 12-24 S4 shots for 274pts, it has better armor, higher toughness, higher wounds and is a transport. So we on average hit with 9 shots at S6. This thing hits on average with 1 S8 Shot, 8 S6 shots, 4 S5 shots and 8-16 S4 shots a turn.
So which would you rather have, 1 Stormraver or about 2 Dakkajets?
LOL just be careful using that kind of logic with imperial players, they don't like it when you point out how crap your army is compared to theirs.
Removing Twinlink as a rule then giving SM an easy reroll access was kinda BS on its own. Making their PF's cost HALF what my PK's cost was even more BS. Making it where an army that depends on cover cant get cover turned it into a Great Lake amount of BS.
/rant off
Still have fun in a casual setting atleast which is about all i ever play anyway. GW cannot balance for tournament play to save their life.
I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.
Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after
Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find
Dakkajets are the exact opposite of "Cheap" they are in fact over priced dramatically. They should be about 50pts cheaper when fully equipped, 18 S6 shots averages 9 hits. Against T4 that is 6 wounds. Against Guard thats 5 dead models, or put another way. You just used a 150pt unit to kill 15-20pts of guardsmen. Even if you catch a SMTac squad in the open that is only going to net you about 3 Dead Marines for less then 50pts.
Dakkajets as mentioned somewhere else are fit perfectly between two realms and are good at neither of them. They aren't good at killing high value models with good armor, and they aren't good at removing low value hordes. ironically, a SM Tactical squad has about the same chance of killing a Dakkajet as the dakkajet does of killing the tactical squad, let that sink in. (if armed with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher).
As far as Kommandos/Snikrot are concerned. They suffer the same problem as regular boyz but are 50% more expensive for it. They aren't durable enough. If you put a 10-20man Kommando unit behind enemy lines and it fails its charge then you just lost 90-180pts MINIMUM, and if you are investing points into Snikrot you are probably taking a couple units of that size which means you have invested at the least 200pts into a throw away distraction unit that at that points level is not hard to kill and too expensive for what little it can do.
Kommanos/Stormboyz should be priced at 7pts per model. Burnas should be 9ppm and Tankbustas around 11-12. Lootas should be 10 at the ABSOLUTE MOST!.
basically all of our infantry units are over priced, and if they specialize in something they are probably MASSIVELY over priced. The reason that Stormboyz/Kommandos see game time is because they are the units that have the closest price to regular boyz while also gaining some kind of extra utility.
I feel like Kommandos have an issue of having abilities that are somewhat cross purposes. They get bonus to cover saves but if they deploy into cover they won't be able to charge, which is really the only way they can deal damage because they have crap for shooting. In general I think that they should have given points to weapons and made base models cheaper similar to Tank bustas, Then most weapons need a shift down in points.
Personally I'd like to see all base Boy type models to be 4 ppm, then have Sluggas, shootas, and choppas at 1 point each. So shoota boyz would be 5 ppm. Make burnas/big shootas 4 or 5 points, rokkits ~7 points, Then make commandos/tankbustas 5 or 6 points to account for extra special abilities.
Removing Twinlink as a rule then giving SM an easy reroll access was kinda BS on its own. Making their PF's cost HALF what my PK's cost was even more BS. Making it where an army that depends on cover cant get cover turned it into a Great Lake amount of BS.
/rant off
Still have fun in a casual setting atleast which is about all i ever play anyway. GW cannot balance for tournament play to save their life.
Yeah it was rather sneaky the way they pulled that little trick off. "Twin Linked isn't a thing anymore guys! instead those weapons get 2x the shots, thats fair right? (Ork Dakkagun goes from 1.66 hits a turn to 2. SMTL Heavy Bolter goes from 2.66 hits a turn to 4) Ohh and We are going to give SMs aura buffs that let them reroll everything." I am still trying to figure out how the Assault Cannon went up that drastically, its now a powerhouse weapon. Twin Assan gets 12 shots? Jesus.
I feel like Kommandos have an issue of having abilities that are somewhat cross purposes. They get bonus to cover saves but if they deploy into cover they won't be able to charge, which is really the only way they can deal damage because they have crap for shooting. In general I think that they should have given points to weapons and made base models cheaper similar to Tank bustas, Then most weapons need a shift down in points.
Personally I'd like to see all base Boy type models to be 4 ppm, then have Sluggas, shootas, and choppas at 1 point each. So shoota boyz would be 5 ppm. Make burnas/big shootas 4 or 5 points, rokkits ~7 points, Then make commandos/tankbustas 5 or 6 points to account for extra special abilities.
GW has been moving orkz into the Realm of Jack of all trades and moving space Marines out of it for awhile now. The thing that really bugs me about this is that the excuse is always that 2nd attack we have in our base profile. For some reason that justifies our base models being so expensive, and justifies our CC weapons being so expensive and justifies our limited useful ranged weapons being so expensive.
Kommandos should IGNORE terrain OR get a 5+ save normal that becomes a 3+ when in cover, then I might actually put them in cover for a change.
How would you even get cover with them though unless theyre a minimal squad?
After all the ENTIRE FREAKIN UNIT has to be in cover to get it now and being behind a wall doesnt count anymore.
Terrain rules are the biggest flop this edition imo. They make no sense. Even parts of the model that didnt count as LOS before do now, so my MABoss with a huge crucified space marine bosspole is actually a massive negative to me since now that stupid pole counts for some reason.
The only cheap units, or maybe with an appropriate cost, we have are boyz, warbosses and weirdboyz. Everything else is overpriced.
The biker big mek we love so much (I always include him too) is 101 points for a 5++ invuln and a couple of S5 hits on average.
Meganobz should reach combat quite easily. Problem is they have a few attacks for their cost and S10 hits wound on 3s anything T6+ which are the appropriate targets for pks. So many misses and failed to wound rolls. And now vehicles don't even have 4 HP and the chance to be instant killed, that's why meganobz have become mediocre.
grendel083 wrote: Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?
Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )
What i do is figure out how many attacks each model attacking has and just grab that many of dice as i count. As in, slugga/choppa boyz with 22 models get 4 attacks and 16 can actually attack, so i grab 16 sets of 4 dice.
I dont really have to math it at that point. And it saves me for when i get a lot more attacks than i can roll dice, i just remember "This is 10 boyz i still got 6 left to roll for"
Yeah, the trick is pretty much keeping math out of it.
You won't get around counting the models, the best shortcut is to have your opponent count the models while already getting the dice ready - even if he is BS'ing you out of a model or two, it won't matter that much for the whole game. The difference between 115 attacks and 109 attacks is negligible.
If you want to be more precise, keep track of how many models each mob has left at all times (pen and paper, d30, or memory exercise), and simply count the model which are out of range.
Once you have a number of boyz, I grab packages of 4 dice until I have one dice for every boy, and then roll hit, remove fails, roll wound, remove fails. Repeat for the number of attacks. If you have enough dice (and large enough hands ) pick two dice per ork when you are shooting shootas or were buffed to four attacks. Do the boss afterwards - or first if he has a chance of taking out the target and
The two important things in this method are:
a) Count your dice only once. If you have 11 boyz with 3 attacks don't do 20 and 13 dice rolls, do three times 11 dice
b) Don't count off every single dice. Add them in fours or fives (I've seen both work for different people) until you exceed the number of dice you need, remove the excess dice. This takes some practice, but will speed up counting dice a lot. If you keep them in fours or fives you can even salvage miscounts pretty quickly.
So in your case, you would have taken five times five dice and removed two from the last from the last package for your 23 boyz. Then you'd roll your first 23 hits, remove all 1 and 2, roll all the remaining dice. Pick up all dice and roll the next 23 attacks until you've rolled all attacks. Then roll for your nob boss and you're done.
Blackie wrote: The only cheap units, or maybe with an appropriate cost, we have are boyz, warbosses and weirdboyz. Everything else is overpriced.
The biker big mek we love so much (I always include him too) is 101 points for a 5++ invuln and a couple of S5 hits on average.
Meganobz should reach combat quite easily. Problem is they have a few attacks for their cost and S10 hits wound on 3s anything T6+ which are the appropriate targets for pks. So many misses and failed to wound rolls. And now vehicles don't even have 4 HP and the chance to be instant killed, that's why meganobz have become mediocre.
Comparing Conscripts to Boyz...Yea nope. Boyz need to be at least 1pt cheaper.
what really was noticeable right off the bat was the massive increase in price for weapons. 12pts for a stupid Rokkit is just ridiculous. 28 for a twin rokkit is even more so. 6pts for a Big shoota is crap but not terrible, but realistically thats 6pts for a single S5 hit a turn....Realistically it should be 2-3pts. Kustom Shoota, this is so cool, i want to use these! But 4pts is literally 1pt per S4 shot, that is ridiculous on a BS5+ model. Space Marines can take Storm Bolters for 2pts. That means a BS3+ model is paying 2pts less for a very similar gun figure that crap out.
Vineheart01 wrote: How would you even get cover with them though unless theyre a minimal squad?
After all the ENTIRE FREAKIN UNIT has to be in cover to get it now and being behind a wall doesnt count anymore.
Terrain rules are the biggest flop this edition imo. They make no sense. Even parts of the model that didnt count as LOS before do now, so my MABoss with a huge crucified space marine bosspole is actually a massive negative to me since now that stupid pole counts for some reason.
On the other hand, my Waaagh! Banner Nob can shoot his kustom shoota over LOS blocking ruins now, and kill marines right on the other side of the wall...
The terrain rules really blow for anything but stationary 5 man squads - orks don't have those. Plus you still have TLOS involved, which has always been are reason arguments during games.
I still feel like cover should just be given by default except when every shooting model can trace a line to every target model without drawing a line through terrain or an enemy unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Comparing Conscripts to Boyz...Yea nope. Boyz need to be at least 1pt cheaper.
When not fighting conscript, boyz do feel properly costed though. So it's conscripts that are out of line, not boyz.
what really was noticeable right off the bat was the massive increase in price for weapons. 12pts for a stupid Rokkit is just ridiculous. 28 for a twin rokkit is even more so. 6pts for a Big shoota is crap but not terrible, but realistically thats 6pts for a single S5 hit a turn....Realistically it should be 2-3pts. Kustom Shoota, this is so cool, i want to use these! But 4pts is literally 1pt per S4 shot, that is ridiculous on a BS5+ model. Space Marines can take Storm Bolters for 2pts. That means a BS3+ model is paying 2pts less for a very similar gun figure that crap out.
What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.
What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.
are you kidding me? did they really say that? I seriously need a link because that is without a doubt the stupidest thing I HAVE EVER HEARD.
Thats fething great for ork vs ork games but against anything else its ridiculous, I really want to use stronger language in this situation.
So they justify Twin Rokkitz at 28pts because against Shootas its about right? My head hurts, im done for now.
Might be a little controversial but I think most Ork weapons aren't terribly overpriced on their own.
Kustom Shoota v Storm Bolter looks bad but it's assault 4 compared to rapid 2, so there is 'some' extra utility there... Minimal, I grant you.
However, GW clearly doesn't cost to the BS or durability of the bearer. My Dark Angels successors would LOVE a squad of S8 AP-2 D3 assault weapons for 12p a pop. They probably look at SMMLs at 25 and 12 for a Rokkit seems Ok.
BS 5+ and Sv 6+ is what makes our Orky Gunz so lame on DPP. IF they actually looked at it from that angle then broad point reductions would be only fair. Not convinced they do or will though... But we can hope...
I will eat my hat if they don't drop PKs a fair bit.
Boyz v Conscripts, i dunno if that's worth comparing atm. I think Conscripts are underpriced and will probably go up or get worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, but I do agree that paying more than double for a double weapon makes zero sense in any context.
£1.50 each! Or 3 for a fiver!!! Come grab a bulk buy bargain!!
What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.
are you kidding me? did they really say that? I seriously need a link because that is without a doubt the stupidest thing I HAVE EVER HEARD.
Thats fething great for ork vs ork games but against anything else its ridiculous, I really want to use stronger language in this situation.
So they justify Twin Rokkitz at 28pts because against Shootas its about right? My head hurts, im done for now.
Of course it's the stupidest thing you have ever heard, all you do is compare Orks to Imperials.
Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.
>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<
This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.
Rismonite wrote: Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.
>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<
This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.
Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.
I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.
Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.
Rismonite wrote: Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.
>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<
This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.
Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.
I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.
Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.
Rismonite wrote: Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.
>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<
This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.
Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.
I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.
Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.
The sad part is that all of this is actually accurate, there's no hyperbole.
Orks simply can't deal with vehicles this edition - Rhino/Chimera walls are unrealistically difficult to crack; which makes them essentially moving terrain that blocks charges. If your opponent brings a Knight/Land Raider/Super Heavy, the best thing you can do is try to ignore it - you aren't going to be bringing it down. And if they bring more than one...
To top it all off, Ork shooting simply doesn't exist - Orks always used to be the "buckets of dice" army; doubly so when it came to shooting. They weren't going to hit much, but there was more than enough dakka to go around - this time however, Imperial armies get MORE shots, BETTER ballistic skill, and CHEAPER points cost on MORE durable vehicles. Other armies should be jealous of the amount of dice thats Orks can roll, instead of the other way around - we don't even have the BS to fire our weapons accurately, let alone on the move or if the target has a -1 modifier (god forbid both come into play, then you're hitting on a 7+ with no way to increase that).
Its simply too much - there's no reason to play Orks, unless you want the Green Tide playstyle; and even then...
When not fighting conscript, boyz do feel properly costed though. So it's conscripts that are out of line, not boyz.
I agree, conscripts are undercosted and have some broken rules/combos. They should be 4ppm and units of max 30 bodies. If orks had the chance to field mobs of 50 boyz, those boyz would be quite better than now even with the current profile and cost.
in response to the comments that say "gw focused on faction internal balance"
internal balance was my biggest gripe with 7th. yes we had some good units in 7th but they were so better then anything else in the codex it was a no brainer to bring anything else. a stormboy was nothing compared to a bike, so it was always a disadvantage to run any force of stormboys instead of bikes.
now im not saying everything is perfectly balanced in our faction in 8th, but its way closer then in previous editions. the only thing that makes units more desirable over anther is what our opponent would bring. if they brought nothing but anti tank then boyz are obviously more useful then gorkanauts, but that is all about the concept of external balance.
id rather have my codex 1st internally balanced before it is externally balanced, that way i can at least not feel like im hamstringing myself by bringing a dread mob instead of a green tide.
in previous editions gw seemed to focus on external balance, this would lead not only to codex creep, but also to most codex's having a whole bunch of useless models, the gap of useful and useless units had greatly decreased this edition.
if they now focus on external balance then we could have the more perfect game (an impossible feat, but worthy goal for any company to strive for), and as far as ive seen gw has been doing its best and better, could you have expected the changes we've had within the last few months a year ago?
gw balancing wont be perfect, but i have much more hope then before. before the announcement of 8th edition i was seriously depressed about orks, but now ive been reinvigorated in the hobby.
tldr. i am glad they focused on internal balance 1st, it increases the chances any choice is equal as far as ork units. i think gw is doing better by the hobby and in turn will do better for us orks. if or when they improve our faction we can expect most of our codex will be improved as well.
also, i highly doubt the playtesters were bought out to hype the game, i honestly think they tried their best to help gw, and in turn believe them when they say they think things are better. besides, it was up to gw to listen to the playtesters(they weren't obligated to change everything the tester would address) and also the playtesters haven't always been excited about every single thing, the great guys at front line gaming on multiple occasions addressed the imbalances of the game. the playtester also have a much closer ear to the ground when it comes to knowing whats coming next from gw, so i am more inclined to take their word when they say batter changes are coming, instead of a random forum poster who says "ive known gw long enough to know they will never do good by us!"
Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -
Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305
geargutz wrote: in response to the comments that say "gw focused on faction internal balance"
internal balance was my biggest gripe with 7th. yes we had some good units in 7th but they were so better then anything else in the codex it was a no brainer to bring anything else. a stormboy was nothing compared to a bike, so it was always a disadvantage to run any force of stormboys instead of bikes.
now im not saying everything is perfectly balanced in our faction in 8th, but its way closer then in previous editions. the only thing that makes units more desirable over anther is what our opponent would bring. if they brought nothing but anti tank then boyz are obviously more useful then gorkanauts, but that is all about the concept of external balance.
id rather have my codex 1st internally balanced before it is externally balanced, that way i can at least not feel like im hamstringing myself by bringing a dread mob instead of a green tide.
I agree, but external balance is the reason most of our shooty options don't see play. Either because they die too fast due to lacking durability or they kill to little due to high weapon costs and bad BS. The result is orks having no answer to shooting armies except somehow crossing the field and killing everything in combat. Which pretty much matches my experiences in games. When fighting armies that field units that favor assault over shooting like daemons, nids or certain flavors of marines (Black Templar or World Eaters for example) things like lootaz, mek gunz or flash gits suddenly start working like a charm. When facing tau, eldar or the dreaded ultra smurfs those units pretty much act as "stuff that dies before boyz". Which leads us back to the mantra "boyz before toyz", a massive indicator of terrible internal balance.
in previous editions gw seemed to focus on external balance, this would lead not only to codex creep, but also to most codex's having a whole bunch of useless models, the gap of useful and useless units had greatly decreased this edition.
if they now focus on external balance then we could have the more perfect game (an impossible feat, but worthy goal for any company to strive for), and as far as ive seen gw has been doing its best and better, could you have expected the changes we've had within the last few months a year ago?
Neither internal nor external balance is more important than the other, nor is there an actual line you could draw between them. For any given unit, it needs to have a role it can fulfill in the context of any given game. There also must not be unit that is strictly better in fulfilling that role, otherwise there is no point in taking it.
Three examples:
1) There is the tractor cannon right now. In the context of the codex it's pretty close in terms of efficiency to all the other artillery units, lootaz and dakka jets. It's role is killing flyers, but even a full unit will struggle to harm a single storm raven at all before that storm raven wipes out the unit with its own shooting. So what's the point in ever taking it, when it can't even put as much as a dent into its dedicated targets with no other redeeming qualities. This is neither internal nor external balance. It's a unit that has rules that failed to function.
2) Storm boyz are fast orks with little survivability and bad shooting, warbikers are fast orks with high survivabilty and great shooting. The reason one sees play and the other doesn't is not just because warbikers should drop to the point costs of storm boyz, but because it's somewhat easier to kill one 2W T5 4+ model than three 1W T4 6+ models due to how damage works.
3) Footslogging tank bustaz, burnaz or flash gits are all pretty ok when there is nothing but other orks are shooting them However, if there is no way to keep them alive through an imperial shooting phase, you simply don't field them. Suddenly they disappear from the list of viable units even though they are not worse than footslogging any other unit.
also, i highly doubt the playtesters were bought out to hype the game, i honestly think they tried their best to help gw, and in turn believe them when they say they think things are better. besides, it was up to gw to listen to the playtesters(they weren't obligated to change everything the tester would address) and also the playtesters haven't always been excited about every single thing, the great guys at front line gaming on multiple occasions addressed the imbalances of the game. the playtester also have a much closer ear to the ground when it comes to knowing whats coming next from gw, so i am more inclined to take their word when they say batter changes are coming, instead of a random forum poster who says "ive known gw long enough to know they will never do good by us!"
SemperMortis is not a random poster
But seriously, play testers are not game developers. GW game developers obviously also have no experience with incorporation play tester feedback. Maybe they don't even have structured play testing at all and everybody just keeps bringing whatever army/units/models they feel like. Maybe their mindset is stuck in certain meta than evolved between play testers. Ever went to a new GW store/FLGS and completely wiped the floor with the local champion who had no clue how to fight against orks, because everyone there was just playing MEQ all the time?
Even if they are competitive gamers, they are not bound to find any loopholes. The seven storm ravens army didn't show up anywhere before some dude went and won a tourney that way - even though thousands of players were reading the leaked rules all over the globe. If they are actually aiming to get better at this they will.
Wizards of the Coast will soon have two decades of experience in play testing, designing and developing (I feel splitting the two is very important) MTG and they still have massive screw ups in their balancing every few years.
The index rules are... ok. Not great, but ok. Everybody agrees that it's better than the last two editions, and we've got one competitive list. If my math isn't failing me, that infinitely better than anything we had in our last codex
Niiru wrote: Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -
Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305
The most expensive option by far, but also the killiest. Midway in speed between the other options, but has +1 toughness over even the Squiggoth, and 6 more wounds. Bigger, killier, tougher, but more expensive to match.
Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.
Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?
Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.
i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.
What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?
Vineheart01 wrote:Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?
Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.
i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...
I thought Tankbustas would one of the only units in our codex that were actually *not* badly priced. I agree Burnas, flash gitz and lootas are all poor right now. I thought Tankbustas, along with Stormboyz, were our only worthwhile choices these days.
Tankbustas arent "bad" against vehicles since they have literally our ONLY reroll in the entire army when hitting vehicles, 255pts for 15 BS5 rokkits that dies to a stiff breeze the instant the transport goes away isnt exactly idea. Not to mention everything (except ork vehicles..go figure) has a 3+ armor, rokkits make that a 5+. They all have the HP to suffer 2-3 hits from a rokkit and not care too much.
i had a wagon with 15 tankbustas and a kff mek for about 4 games until i took them out. They did more work as a distraction than as a killing machine, since the idea of potential 15 3Damage shots does seem a little scary. In those 4 games i had ONE where they actually wrecked a vehicle pretty hard (the new SM dread whatever its called), all the rest i typically had max 2 attacks cause damage each round. Literally a 30man blob of shootaboyz would do more damage than that!
Have to realize, if i put them in the gargantuan squiggoth then thats 814pts basically stacked on top of one model. One model that i cant repair or heal either (thanks to Painboy for some reason not just saying nonvehicle in his rule). Doing so would require me to cut the deffdreads from my list and not having more than 1 source of obvious "Im gonna kill ya if ya dun kill meh first!" targets is a nono. All those stupid 100% accurate lascannons and plasmas would just shred this thing barring 5++ luck
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.
What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?
Vineheart01 wrote:Do we have anything FW or otherwise that would be viable in a transport other than just a means to move melee troops in safer?
Im gaining on finishing my gargantuan squiggoth so i started making a list and i just had a daunting realization: this thing has a special rule where units embarked can still shoot while it charges things...so i kinda feel obligated to find a way to utilize that. Problem is Tankbustas are HORRIBLY overpriced, flashgitz/lootas are Heavy and wouldnt appreciate a constantly charging platform, Burnas range and price is a no, and turning Nobz into a shooty unit via Kustom Shootas or Kombis sounds like an even more expensive idea lol.
i ended up just loading it with 19 shootaboyz and a bigmek. And that feels so lame to do...
I thought Tankbustas would one of the only units in our codex that were actually *not* badly priced. I agree Burnas, flash gitz and lootas are all poor right now. I thought Tankbustas, along with Stormboyz, were our only worthwhile choices these days.
I might try pricing up a unit of Nobz myself.
Ok well, a unit of 10 Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas and Power Stabbas comes up as 390 points. 398, if you fill up the kill tank's two spare seats with ammo runts. 200 points more than the tankbusta squad. Might be more effective, but it's hard to say. That would be one tank on the table worth 700 points.
Vineheart01 wrote:Tankbustas arent "bad" against vehicles since they have literally our ONLY reroll in the entire army when hitting vehicles, 255pts for 15 BS5 rokkits that dies to a stiff breeze the instant the transport goes away isnt exactly idea.
Not to mention everything (except ork vehicles..go figure) has a 3+ armor, rokkits make that a 5+. They all have the HP to suffer 2-3 hits from a rokkit and not care too much.
i had a wagon with 15 tankbustas and a kff mek for about 4 games until i took them out. They did more work as a distraction than as a killing machine, since the idea of potential 15 3Damage shots does seem a little scary. In those 4 games i had ONE where they actually wrecked a vehicle pretty hard (the new SM dread whatever its called), all the rest i typically had max 2 attacks cause damage each round. Literally a 30man blob of shootaboyz would do more damage than that!
Well, it seems a waste to put 12 boyz into a kill tank. And we don't seem to have any other units.
Ok well, a unit of 10 Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas and Power Stabbas comes up as 390 points. 398, if you fill up the kill tank's two spare seats with ammo runts. 200 points more than the tankbusta squad. Might be more effective, but it's hard to say. That would be one tank on the table worth 700 points.
I'm not sold on putting 700 points into units that die just as quick as if they were 250-300; that's too many eggs in one basket for Orks imo.
Has anyone seen the Primaris Redoubt in the Forgeworld Index: Astra Militarum? I didn't know about it until someone made a random thread, but... it's UNALIGNED with the following stats:
Primaris Redoubt - 300points [minimal loadout]
T8, W20, Sv3+, Sv5++
DT-LD: 96", Macro 2d3, S16, AP-3, D2d6
[Can also take up to 4 Heavy Bolters, + 1 other unique weapon]
BS4+; +1 to hit when targeting units with TITANIC
Can transport one unit of INFANTRY, up to 20 models; and transport any number of INFANTRY CHARACTERS
It's got better accuracy (especially vs Titans) than anything in our Index ('cept Bomb Squigs), 2+ to wound on most tanks, and solid damage if it connects - the 2d3 shots bothers me, but, what can you do. Probably best to keep it as cheap as possible, it's going to die regardless, and you're largely taking it for the DT-LD gun (that said, it has access to a Twin-Lascannon for 40 points; that's probably worth it).
I haven't mathed out if it's better than it's points in Tankbustas (plus accompanying vehicle) - but, since Orks have so many drops as it is; you could save this model as a later drop your opponent has deployed their armor and try to get some damage done if it survives the first round. Since it can transport a squad+characters, it can also reduce the number of drops in your army.
Maybe take two of them for 600 points as your anti-tank/distraction, then the rest in Boyz, and try to get to combat. ; That said, this gives your opponent a target for their anti-armor guns, which they normally might not have... it's no main battle tank, but for 300 points, it seems like a good stand-in.
geargutz wrote: in response to the comments that say "gw focused on faction internal balance"
internal balance was my biggest gripe with 7th. yes we had some good units in 7th but they were so better then anything else in the codex it was a no brainer to bring anything else. a stormboy was nothing compared to a bike, so it was always a disadvantage to run any force of stormboys instead of bikes.
now im not saying everything is perfectly balanced in our faction in 8th, but its way closer then in previous editions. the only thing that makes units more desirable over anther is what our opponent would bring. if they brought nothing but anti tank then boyz are obviously more useful then gorkanauts, but that is all about the concept of external balance.
id rather have my codex 1st internally balanced before it is externally balanced, that way i can at least not feel like im hamstringing myself by bringing a dread mob instead of a green tide.
in previous editions gw seemed to focus on external balance, this would lead not only to codex creep, but also to most codex's having a whole bunch of useless models, the gap of useful and useless units had greatly decreased this edition.
if they now focus on external balance then we could have the more perfect game (an impossible feat, but worthy goal for any company to strive for), and as far as ive seen gw has been doing its best and better, could you have expected the changes we've had within the last few months a year ago?
gw balancing wont be perfect, but i have much more hope then before. before the announcement of 8th edition i was seriously depressed about orks, but now ive been reinvigorated in the hobby.
tldr. i am glad they focused on internal balance 1st, it increases the chances any choice is equal as far as ork units. i think gw is doing better by the hobby and in turn will do better for us orks. if or when they improve our faction we can expect most of our codex will be improved as well.
also, i highly doubt the playtesters were bought out to hype the game, i honestly think they tried their best to help gw, and in turn believe them when they say they think things are better. besides, it was up to gw to listen to the playtesters(they weren't obligated to change everything the tester would address) and also the playtesters haven't always been excited about every single thing, the great guys at front line gaming on multiple occasions addressed the imbalances of the game. the playtester also have a much closer ear to the ground when it comes to knowing whats coming next from gw, so i am more inclined to take their word when they say batter changes are coming, instead of a random forum poster who says "ive known gw long enough to know they will never do good by us!"
You need internal AND external balance otherwise you can't play your army against anyone but other Ork players. And even here they failed miserably. Our transports are insanely over priced, Our Kustom shoota is 4pts and is basically a twin shoota...a shoota is free so why is a kustom shoota 4pts?
Internal balance means to me that you are likely to take any unit in the codex and be competitive against your opponent, instead of bringing 1-3 power units....that didn't happen. Almost the entirety of the Heavy weapons section could cease to be and my list wouldn't change, nor would most players tournament lists. Mek Gunz, Big Gunz, Dreadz, Kanz, Nauts, Stompas, Lootas...they are pretty much irrelevant because they suck so badly. The Elite section is Tank Bustas and Kommandos. Troops? Yep just boyz, how about fast attack? Just Stormboyz.
90% of our index is wasted ink and paper. Their is no internal balance in regards to my point, and as to external balance....ive proven that to be false as well in previous posts.
Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.
Niiru wrote: Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -
Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305
The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.
The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.
Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!
I am using Big Trakks a lot now
Big Trakk Super Skorcha
Tankbusta x5 With boss
Bombsquig
and Big Trakk Supa Skorcha
Nobz x5 Big Choppa and shoota
Warboss BigChoppa Shoota and attack squig
I am currently running Two of the nob carriers and one tankbusta in a 1500 point list When going to 2k I am planning on adding another tankbusta bigtrakk unit and more boyz to to this list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736366.page#9554390 I will consider adding rokkit racks as well to the big trakks
Niiru wrote: Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -
Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305
The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.
The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.
Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!
I am using Big Trakks a lot now
Big Trakk Super Skorcha
Tankbusta x5 With boss
Bombsquig
and Big Trakk Supa Skorcha
Nobz x5 Big Choppa and shoota
Warboss BigChoppa Shoota and attack squig
I am currently running Two of the nob carriers and one tankbusta in a 1500 point list When going to 2k I am planning on adding another tankbusta bigtrakk unit and more boyz to to this list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/736366.page#9554390 I will consider adding rokkit racks as well to the big trakks
Yeh I've had a couple other recommendations of the Big Trakk, was kinda surprised more people didn't vote for the Kill-Tank as it is pretty beasty and hard to kill. It also seems to be the only thing for Orks that isn't hugely overpriced.
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.
That's what I'm experimenting with now. I ran a hybrid walker list last night (60 boyz, 1 morkanaut, 3 dreads, 6 kanz) because I haven't finished painting my horde list or full walker list. It really didn't work too well since it was extremely obvious where to focus what kind of fire. In a full dread mob, anti-infantry has to be used on kanz pretty much exclusively since it won't do much against dreads or nauts, and it'll overload their anti-tank options. The inverse is true for hordes, but running half and half just doesn't work. That being said, bringing mek gunz to at least cripple their tanks would have helped a lot.
It's just frustrating to me that we have so few options in list building.
Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me
218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so). Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.
In my experience they also don't work well with battlewagons because of the opposite reason: They eat all the damage that isn't hurting T8 battlewagons efficiently (heavy bolters, assault and autocannons, scatter lasers etc), plus anything that can deep strike will wipe multiple kannons and/or gunner units per turn, usually leaving them destroyed by end of turn two - because there is no one left in the back to help them.
If you start investing in gretchin, a kff or more to keep them alive, they start becoming too expensive and leave you with too little offensive power.
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me
218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so).
Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.
I run only open topped ones w supa kannons. 191 pts wagon + 6 TBustas in each one.
It's our best tank/transport imho
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
Because they are 27 points with the statline of a rokkit launcher?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering i have 5 battlewagons ive been looking at the Supakannons. It looks promising to me
218pts for a Supakannon w/ 6 Bigshootas and an 'Ard Case sounds cool to me. Loss of Open Topped for 6 whopping models isnt that big of a deal since probably all you want in there anyway is a mek/bigmek for repairs/kff (though think i'd rather have the KFF outside and covering my walkers too and cover the BW for the first couple turns or so).
Could shave 24pts by taking the bigshootas off since it has 60" range, but lets be honest if you put it that far back its going to get Deepstriked instantly. Might as well have it up a little bit so the footKFF can cover it w/o being dedicated to it.
I think the best way of running battlewagons is with deff-rollas, hard top and some close-combat oriented stuff and characters inside. If you want to run tankbustas, you should put them in trukks. But anything with more than one wound that is not a character will be hard-countered by scions.
Moriarty wrote: 27pts for 3 Wounds, Toughness 5, and Save 5+?
Works out at 9pts per wound. I'd buy that for a dollar.
Its also an easy first blood kill since as you pointed out its only T5 and a 5+ save and depending on where your grots are they can literally just dedicate a couple bolters shots to kill the grots and leave the kannon basically useless for the rest of the game. No, Big Gunz and Mek gunz are crap right now because of the wording for their unit and because they completely lack offensive ability. In a lot of games you have weapons similar to this, they are called Glass Cannons. They put out a lot of firepower but die really quickly, the difference is that in this case these are more inline with Glass Peashooters, because they don't have a lot of firepower but still die to a stiff Breeze.
To the person who joking said Internal balance in regards to heavy support options very true, they are all equally worthless so internal balance achieved. Sucks that I have 5 Mek Gunz, 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz, 30ish Lootas and a morkanaut sitting on my shelf collecting dust, ironically they have a lot of company, they share that shelf with my 35ish Bikers, Dakkajet and 3 Trukkz.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:Units transported by the Kill Tank only hit on sixes. Kill Tanks seem pretty good to me, but I probably wouldn't use them to transport Tankbustas. Melee and/or flamer units seem like a better fit.
What unit would you recommend? I know hitting on 6's isn't ideal for tankbusters, but they do have the option of jumping out when they get where they're going. I don't currently have any trukks in my list (too boring, not orky enough haha). Tankbustas seemed to be the best option, in a codex of bad options. Burnas might work, but bad range and bad stats and hugely overpriced aren't a good combination. Could go with some nobs I guess?
I would guess it depends on what you want the Kill Tank to do, and what else is in your army.
I actually think that regular Boyz aren't a bad idea if the primary purpose of the Kill Tank is its shooting and not its transport ability. The Boyz aren't expensive, they fill up Troop choices helping get more command points and they have (or they're going to have pretty soon) Objective Secured. The Boyz are there to jump off and bubblewrap the Kill Tank if the enemy is trying to keep it tied up in assault. They're also there to jump off at the end of the game to claim objectives. I'm thinking about running 3x Kill Burstas each with a minimum squad of Boyz, and I'll have a Super Heavy Detachment as well as a Batallion Detachment for a decent number of Command Points.
The Kill Tank would be a durable transport for an expensive melee unit, like MANz, but that's putting a lot of points in one basket. Kombi-Skorcha Nobz might also be a good match, but again that's a lot of points. The thing with the Kill Tank is that you have good firepower, but you pay for it (the cost seems pretty fair to me). However, since we pay for the firepower using it primarily as a transport doesn't seem like a really efficient use of points. The rule that passengers only hit on 6s means that it doesn't make a very good fire base for them. That's why I think the best unit to ride around in it would probably be a medium-cost melee unit (Nobz, Burna Boyz) or just regular Boyz because regular Boyz are really good for the points and useful for other things (ObSec, filling out Troops slots for Command Points).
Of course, with Chapter Approved and the Codex things will probably change quite a bit.
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
Yeah i like the Big Guns as well.
Often combine them with Mek Guns and keep them close so the most important Guns can shoot a bit longer.
They work very well with Shooty Gunline orks because they screen all my backyard from deepstriking stuff.
Since in front of my gunline i put some boys / grots and all the 24" dakka in second row they survive surprisingly long.
I just miss the old ammu runts you could use for the Big guns. Made Zzap Guns really good.
Some lobbas are also good to "sniper" small non-character units, especially enemy lobbas.
The easy killpoint does not really matter since orks go more second than first and that killpoint comes 90%+ of the time anyway for the player with first turn.
I imagine IG Heavy Weapon Teams have a lot of the same problems that Big Gunz do. It seems like they're vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons while at the same time being expensive enough to be worth shooting at with anti-tank weapons.
In my limited personal experience my Big Gunz weren't immediately wiped off the table, but at the same time they failed to do much damage. I think that was partly a combination of my opponent having more pressing targets to shoot his weapons at and bad rolling on my part.
One small change I would like to see is for them to adjust the cost of the Big Gunz weapons down while adjusting the cost of the Big Gunz themselves up to whatever is appropriate, which might make them worth taking on Battle Wagons.
hollow one wrote: Big Gunz are your shooty option, team. 27 points each with 2 gunners, 36" range with a S8 -2AP D6dmg profile for tanks. That's the price of 1.5 lootaz, and the kannon has a D6 attack profile for infantry when needed.
I'm surprised they are not discussed more often in this thread.
edit: Kannons, of course.
That's because many ork players are trying footslogging hordes and big gunz perform very badly in this kind of lists since they'll get all the opponent's anti tank dying turn 1. Big gunz/mek gunz can be decent only in armored lists, in which everything competes to soak the anti tank. Dread mobs or lists with several vehicles. I prefer tankbustas in trukks over kannons, they're more expensive but they do their job better, and tipycally orks don't need anti infantry weapons.
They're not only more expensive, but you've put them in an armoured unit so they fall to the same problem you are describing the big gunz fall to, high ap focus fire. Big Gunz are certainly more resilient, the grots can not be targetted and can fan out to protect from deep strikes, and the mek itself has 3 wounds T5.
Because they are 27 points with the statline of a rokkit launcher?
Come on mate, 4+ to hit with +12" range, at least three times the durability of a tank busta. And if you're throwing rokkits in your boyz crew then they are hitting on 6's arnt they, no one's keeping their boyz stationary so their rokkits get +1. So really we are talking about three times the effectiveness of a rokkit on a boy. Maybe you were comparing rokkits on your battlewagon? Then the four moving rokkits cost about 50 points each right?
Moriarty wrote: 27pts for 3 Wounds, Toughness 5, and Save 5+?
Works out at 9pts per wound. I'd buy that for a dollar.
Its also an easy first blood kill since as you pointed out its only T5 and a 5+ save and depending on where your grots are they can literally just dedicate a couple bolters shots to kill the grots and leave the kannon basically useless for the rest of the game. No, Big Gunz and Mek gunz are crap right now because of the wording for their unit and because they completely lack offensive ability. In a lot of games you have weapons similar to this, they are called Glass Cannons. They put out a lot of firepower but die really quickly, the difference is that in this case these are more inline with Glass Peashooters, because they don't have a lot of firepower but still die to a stiff Breeze.
Grots cant be targetted unless they are the closest enemy unit, as per Take Cover rule. And the versatility of Kannon's being able to shoot a D6 attack profile is something everyone is also ignoring.
If i had multiple of these things I would definitely be bringing them, the cost per wound, 4+ to hit, high damage or high attacks, can spread out heaps to protect from deep strike and own objectives. I'd bring 10 minimum to support my green tide. Unfortunately I do feel that they are an easy first blood, and I've got to say that is a pretty huge negative. Killing one mek is a single unit after deployment.
edit: side note, i've been bringing Flash Gitz in place of this at the moment, they are 27 each not including the ammo runt, which I think is probably worth it for the reroll alone. However, so far they are typically only in range of units that are in combat and I'm finding that I have to do weird things to make them useful, like falling a squad a boyz back to get the heavy fire in before another squad makes a new charge and suffers overwatch. I'm skeptical of Flash Gitz so far, but I have the models so I'm doubling down on them and bringing kaptin badrukk for the rerolls to see if I can make them worth anything. Also interesting to note, they have a nob w/ choppa stat line in melee, which isn't irrelevant, S5 A3 WS3+, so they are not as vulnerable as most shooting lines when they are in combat. I've had that underestimated by my opponents before.
Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.
But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.
pismakron wrote: Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.
But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.
Personally I like durable, stationary units for objective control. And I think that element of an army is essential if you want to win instead of just get tabled or table your opponent. Green tide has nothing that does anything if it is standing around, i feel like you need this type of support to win. Even if the big gunz take the las cannon shots and die, the grots are still hanging around on that objective and will waste resources from the opponent. And to your point, I think the trukk is the only viable transport option, and the BW and Gork are simply too expensive for what they do.
pismakron wrote: Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.
But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.
When I run a Gorkanaut the only time it has been even remotely successful is when it had a KFF Big Mek baby sitting it AND I had tons of other heavy stuff on the table, walkers and wagonz. If you take a gorkanaut by itself it will probably die turn 1 to a predator annihilator or 2 camping next to hit/wound reroll characters. Battlewagons are useless now except as a delivery method for Tank bustas. Their isn't any other unit that I would realistically put into a Battlewagon because boyz lose their +1 to attack as soon as they lose 1 model, Burnas suck, Meganobz are about 40% over priced, Nobz are still too fragile and lack offensive power. and a KMK is still utter crap, it is now massively over priced, it actually LOST durability and lost dakka because of the nerf to blast. f
I won't be surprised if GW nerfs boyz and characters instead of buffing everything else because they are that ridiculous.
Super heavy
Kill tank bursta kannon
Kill tank bursta kannon
Kill tank bursta kannon
2k points
With that many Weirdboyz you should have a painboy or two in the list. And while I like the killbursta tank, I think your list would be stronger if you swapped them for Ghaz and more boyz.
I'm still fielding big/mek guns. They're overpriced but are still the best option for backfield scoring that we still need. Not too durable but the separation between grots and guns helps somewhat. The enemy can't wipe them in a single volley. Also, he needs to position correctly to kill those 2 grots - which is not always possible as there are some other guns around somewhere.
I usually bring 2 KMKs too. I really need on objective in my deployment zone because other than the artillery I only have 5 vehicles and 2 bikers. BWs full of boyz are scary for many opponents so they tipycally soak the anti tank, but if KMKs were targeted by some anti tank weapons I'll take it, since I prefer having the vehicles fully operative.
With the current profile KMKs are only good for scoring and act like a bullet magnet in 1-2 turns if the opponent underestimates boyz and bustas in their transports and decides to aim at the artilley instead. For 96 points I still find a room for them, but they should be 15 points cheaper each.
Anyone see any value in lifta-droppas? They autohit once again, but are only D6 attacks. Upside is they practically autowound anything T5 or less regardless of their saves, downside is theyre pathetic against multiwounds. Probably the best application i can think of for it is to take out the lascannons. Long as i roll 4+ on a 2D6, thats 1 less lascannon to deal with (per shot). Drawback: 200pts for a BW with just a liftadroppa to kill probably 10 meqs in cover lol if only they also regained their "throwing" aspect on vehicles
kinda comical. They went from oldschool "completely demolishes vehicles, but terrible against anything else" to "terrible against vehicles, shreds any expensive low toughness model)
Vineheart01 wrote: Anyone see any value in lifta-droppas? They autohit once again, but are only D6 attacks. Upside is they practically autowound anything T5 or less regardless of their saves, downside is theyre pathetic against multiwounds.
Probably the best application i can think of for it is to take out the lascannons. Long as i roll 4+ on a 2D6, thats 1 less lascannon to deal with (per shot). Drawback: 200pts for a BW with just a liftadroppa to kill probably 10 meqs in cover lol if only they also regained their "throwing" aspect on vehicles
kinda comical. They went from oldschool "completely demolishes vehicles, but terrible against anything else" to "terrible against vehicles, shreds any expensive low toughness model)
I think GW decided that Orks shouldn't be able to kill Vehicles this edition. Everything that was good against Vehicles sucks except tank bustas who are massively over priced and require a transport to be relevant.
I have been dealing with vehicles with melee primarily. Bustas soften them up enough that hopefully boys+nob can whittle it down upon arriving.
Considering putting my 12 lootas inside 2 supa kannon BW instead of a trukk though. Maybe help cracking em open.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Toying with a more shooty list after reading more about supa kannons. Very pirate-y.
Da plan would be
Loota x5 inside supa kannon BW (x2)
Flash gits +5 runts inside trukk
5 bustas + squig (x2) inside trukk
BW rolla hard top with 17 boys warboss weird boy and banner nob
BW with rolla hard top 2 squads of 10 boys BC nobs
KFF mek on bike
KFF pushes with boys' wagons, bustas or gits maybe can fit into bubble also.
Kannon wagons deploy far away and shoot stuff.
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Batting this list around, it outs a decent amount on the table but your opponent will have a lot to handle. Boyz Jumped turn one should be fun with another BW headed up to unload 20 more. Gork's and dreads should make short work of things once in CC (you know, what Orks armies are designed to do best).
Orks struggle at dealing with heavy armor; super heavies like Knights, etc, can be pretty problematic.
The Forgeworld "Primaris Redoubt" listed on the previous page looks like it could be decent against it; 2d3shots, BS3+ (against TITANIC), S16, and 2d6 damage - might put a real dent into them.
Since we're all sharing lists:
My local group plays with +1 on the roll to go first, so I'm leaning into MSU to deliver nobz this weekend (someone gave me the idea in this thread for using 9 boyz as ablative wounds for a nob), not tried this before. The 3 trukks should bring the drops down significantly anyway, three 10 man boyz with a weirdboy/waagh banner/painboy stacked inside. The battlewagon holds the entire spearhead detachment as well, so we're looking at 9 drops I think for this list.
I'm planning a mechanised sweep forward, maybe a turn two jump the 30 boyz (hopefully able to hide until they get jumped), with two stranded squads of 10 boyz for objectives. With the stormboyz, trukks, and jump, I'm looking at a pretty good beta strike turn 2 with everything. I like to use trukks to soak overwatch where possible and I've not tried the BW with flash gitz yet, unfortunately I think I have to get Kaptin Badrukk out of the vehicle for the flashgitz to benefit from his aura. Otherwise the beta strike has waagh banner painboy and KFF to protect the vehicles on the way in. In this list the smites from the weirdboyz are really my tank killers, with the trukks hopefully they will find their targets and still be safe with the boyz surrounding them.
MSU gave me the ability to bring two battalions, so I'm running 10 CP with this list. Without the leadership of the 30 boyz I have no warboss or Ghazkull to protect from morale, so I suspect this list will collapse in later turns. But we'll see. I think a warboss instead of kaptin badrukk is strictly correct, but I'm trying this out. If I had the models I would likely bring another 15-20 stormboyz instead of the two stranded boyz squad.
Quick question on the FW Squiggoth and Gargantuan - the Stampede ability says it goes off on a 2. Is that meant to be a 2+ or literally only on a 2? Looked around for a FW ork FAQ but couldn't find anything.
cheesedupree wrote: Quick question on the FW Squiggoth and Gargantuan - the Stampede ability says it goes off on a 2. Is that meant to be a 2+ or literally only on a 2? Looked around for a FW ork FAQ but couldn't find anything.
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Only S8??? Basically a rokkit launcha, with better range and number of shots but with no rerolls against vehicles that tankbustas have and mounted on a super expensive platform. A unit of KMKs is capable of more damage for the same cost.
No thanks. It should be at least S10 AP-3 D6 to be worth taking.
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Only S8??? Basically a rokkit launcha, with better range and number of shots but with no rerolls against vehicles that tankbustas have and mounted on a super expensive platform. A unit of KMKs is capable of more damage for the same cost.
No thanks. It should be at least S10 AP-3 D6 to be worth taking.
Even looking at FW, orks have very little high damage, high AP, high strength attacks. The absolute best is stompa/gargantuan melee, but knightspam would kill them before they got to melee anyway
Its like...do you want high rate of fire but crap AP, or low rate of fire and good AP? Damage isnt a value you can look for, practically anything cheap enough to bring does at most 2 damage outside of melee (Rokkits being the best exception, but theyre expensive too just not overbearingly). Even the Bursta Kannon which is S10 AP-4 still does a flat2 damage...really something that massive does the same damage as an autocannon, which can be spammed like nothing else?
Guaranteed 11 Rokkits with rerolls vs vehicles on t4 6+armor single wound models... so 11 wound pool
Vs
2d6 rokkits at t7-8 with 4+ save and 16 wounds.. averaging 7 Rokkits a turn.. less dps more resilient but can also ferry around small squads (who can use vehicle as mobile gun boat)
Figure not a terrible idea, if you plan to mobilize your lootas anyway to protect them from small arms and chargers.. trukk is 80ish for it to do nothing practically. Add 110 points to it and boom you're holding 6 lootas and have a supa kannon. Granted you'd have to do that twice to transport all 12 lootas so +220 points onto 2 trukks.
60" range nothing to sneeze at either
With my list it's 4d6 kannon Rokkits, 10 busta Rokkits, 1d3 x6 loota shots (x2), 15 snazzgun shots a turn while crossing board to Krump..
Firing power is missing anti infantry at this point though. Not enough snazzgun shots
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention those 11 Rokkits are attached to a movement 5 model... with a 24" range... so 29"+d6" advance threat range... max 35"
Vs 60" range of kannon... with 12" movement for 72" threat range
Why do you guys need some much dakka in your Ork lists? They designed the army to work better in CC. Find ways to get into CC not pour more points into dakka units that don't work that well.
srsly though, you can't melee flyers, you can't melee stuff 60" away, sometimes you need to shoot something off an objective that our boys will never get to unless you use your jump to get them there, when it may have been more advantageous to jump them elsewhere and shoot the gits off the Objective
It's just tactical flexibility
boys will outshine about everything point for point, but they can't shoot 60" or assault flyers. Green tide will be most competitive build we have for some time.. I don't think there is fault in trying other ways though. Many of us didn't start playing orks in hopes of playing a horde. Some don't want to buy new models, some don't like painting them all, some don't like moving them all each turn. YMMV. No harm in trying to make shooting work better for us. I think an ork gun line is doomed to fail as it stands but a combined arms force... with a strong shooting phase and strong melee while not overly dedicating to either... could be a healthy build.
Warboss (ghazgul preferably)
KFF mek on bike
Waaaagh banner nob
Weird boy
^ standard characters
Painboy I haven't used this edition but he's better suited to follow ghaz around and heal him over giving FNP to random units nearby. Seems to be better to use mad doc grotsnik over standard painboy with his klaw
Boss buff nearby units with ability to advance and charges also gives +1A if it's ghaz.
KFF gives 5+ invuln to stuff WHOLLY within its 9" radius (bear for vehicles)
Banner nob gives +1 to hit to units within 6" (so boys hit on 2+)
Weirdboy smites stuff, gives +1A to a unit, or teleports them
Boys are your best anti infantry so far.
Can always give a unit of nobs or mega nobs all kombi skorchas to help
Anti about anything is boys boys boys. Drown them in attacks. Boss nobs with big choppa or klaw can whittle down 2+ saves.
The consensus seems to be gunboats aren't most competitive, neither are our vehicles.
Notable mentions are
Battlewagon ard case deff rolla. T8 holds 20 boys, not open topped with ard case. Deff rolla means 6 attacks hitting on 2+ doing S8 -2 AP and 1 DMg each. Boys disembark, wagon moves up and charges boys' target first to absorb overwatch with t8 4+ save.
Kill tank with any big gun is good. Guys transported only hit with shooting on 6s so better to put a melee unit in it or something with kombi skorchas. This thing has Bs 4+ to do work with racks of Rokkits and it's big gun
One of the big walkers has had a lot of success, can find info in this thread. Morkanaught or gorkanaught. Ones supposed to do good, and other not so much.
Dakkajet puts out good dmg to light vehicles and infantry
Lootas are good shooting/DMg vs higher T targets. Tankbustas are the preferred but flash gits are a bit more flexible shooting infantry or vehicles. Can wound anything on a 5+ with 4+ to hit and re rolls.
Nobs with 3 point power stabbas are great anti meq with ap-2
Hopefully helpful. Jidmah (I think) did a great break down of each unit about 40 pages back, lol.
Gorkanaut is generally considered pretty good, though i have good results with triple deffdreads too (not alone, they need a KFF around and preferebly some other vehicle too such as a BW, killakanz, or heck a gork would draw attention too. Once they get melee they shred things, getting there is the problem)
You know... something I've been thinking about, and something that I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread, but that I think could actually go a long way to fixing (or at least improving) the usefullness of some of our units... is a change to Da Jump.
At the moment, it only works with Ork INFANTRY units. So it's only good for boyz and nobz, and in doing so they lose out on character buffs (at least until the next turn, if you then decide to jump the character forward too). This is fine, this actually helps get some boyz up into some turn 1 fights and stuff, not a problem.
HOWEVER... What if they changed it so that it worked, instead on Ork INFANTRY, to simply any ORK <CLAN> unit? This would mean you could fling a deff dread up on turn 1, or a battlewagon filled with tankbustas or nobs.
Would it be overpowered? Well you could put one unit of tankbustas in range of the enemy tanks on turn one and do some damage. But then IG can put 10 units of plasma scions within range of enemy tanks on turn one. So it's certainly not overpowered.
And before someone says "Ahh but the psychic powers have been balanced the way they are for a reason", think about this - Grey Knights have the exact same psychic power as Da Jump. Except theirs works on all Grey Knight units.
They can throw a land raider into rapid fire range of all it's nasty guns. So why can't orks? It's definitely a much more Orky thing to be able to do.
skyfi wrote: Warboss (ghazgul preferably)
KFF mek on bike
Waaaagh banner nob
Weird boy
^ standard characters
Painboy I haven't used this edition but he's better suited to follow ghaz around and heal him over giving FNP to random units nearby. Seems to be better to use mad doc grotsnik over standard painboy with his klaw
...
Thanks for the answer.
How good are stormboyz? Do they have a place in the army? Are they also effective? What about Nobz with ammo runt? What about Kommandoz? And Shootas?
Niiru wrote: You know... something I've been thinking about, and something that I don't think has been mentioned yet in this thread, but that I think could actually go a long way to fixing (or at least improving) the usefullness of some of our units... is a change to Da Jump.
At the moment, it only works with Ork INFANTRY units. So it's only good for boyz and nobz, and in doing so they lose out on character buffs (at least until the next turn, if you then decide to jump the character forward too). This is fine, this actually helps get some boyz up into some turn 1 fights and stuff, not a problem.
HOWEVER... What if they changed it so that it worked, instead on Ork INFANTRY, to simply any ORK <CLAN> unit? This would mean you could fling a deff dread up on turn 1, or a battlewagon filled with tankbustas or nobs.
Would it be overpowered? Well you could put one unit of tankbustas in range of the enemy tanks on turn one and do some damage. But then IG can put 10 units of plasma scions within range of enemy tanks on turn one. So it's certainly not overpowered.
And before someone says "Ahh but the psychic powers have been balanced the way they are for a reason", think about this - Grey Knights have the exact same psychic power as Da Jump. Except theirs works on all Grey Knight units.
They can throw a land raider into rapid fire range of all it's nasty guns. So why can't orks? It's definitely a much more Orky thing to be able to do.
I only have the index version of Gate to look at but it is actually better than Da Jump across the board. it is WC 6 instead of 7 and has 12" range instead of 6", counts as moving (gate says nothing about this) and effects any GK unit instead of just infantry.
On one side GK have a much smaller selection of units, don't get re-roll charges, and nothing like Ork boyz to teleport, and weirdboyz can typically get a 7 off pretty easily. On the other GK are much better at shooting than anything orks could throw into range.
But yeah it would be pretty interesting if you could teleport a gorkanaut or dread. Especially in combination with Kommandos, teleport the naut up to eat overwatch from small arms, or use the commandos to do so for lascannons etc, then charge with the other.
skyfi wrote: Warboss (ghazgul preferably)
KFF mek on bike
Waaaagh banner nob
Weird boy
^ standard characters
Painboy I haven't used this edition but he's better suited to follow ghaz around and heal him over giving FNP to random units nearby. Seems to be better to use mad doc grotsnik over standard painboy with his klaw
...
Thanks for the answer.
How good are stormboyz? Do they have a place in the army? Are they also effective? What about Nobz with ammo runt? What about Kommandoz? And Shootas?
Stormboys are solid. Their ability to ignore terrain and speed, makes up for the points difference compared to normal boys IMHO. Lots of competitive lists around with a handful of stormboys. Now that regular boys are getting objective secured, boys are looking better. I would say stormboys def serve a purpose. For 49 points you can hide a unit of 5 of them to hop over stuff or grab obj in hard to reach places. Just don't expect them to survive shooting, or melee for that matter with squads so small. The names character benefits multiple units nearby and is good this edition as well.
Nobs with ammo runts are great. Get shot by small arms? Put wounds on a 4+ nob, get shot with las cannon, pick a worthless ammo runt to take the wound ( who counts as t5). Plus if you give them kombi Rokkits they function the same as tankbustas, except get a re roll vs every target and pack a wallop in melee with nob stat line
Kommandos are in similar situation as stormboys but less combat prowess. They seem to be used as cheap distraction units doomed to die, or used to grab objectives. For measly 49 points as well iirc, can bring 5 kommandos including a big choppa nob and 2 burnas. They probably won't kill anything, but could hold objectives or give other small units a run for their money
Slugga/choppa benefit you more than a shoota in most instances. Having shoota squads to hold objectives, or get jumped to dakka stuff weak to small arms isn't bad. Also now you can mix squads with shootas and sluggas, so you can take casualties from your shoota boys to ensure choppa boys get into CC and take pot shots with shootas while you're movinf across board. Sometimes a few extra wKinda in shooting are. Ended to open a gap up to fit by with modes to charge thru a screen etc
Da jump is pretty terrifying for many armies, it doesn't really need a buff. Keep in mind that not every army is a primarch blueberry donut or conscript meatgrinder.
A much more sensitive buff to dreads and nauts would be removing bike meks repair limitation after moving more than 5".
I don't think the rules of KANz, Dreads or Nauts are bad though. If they lose enough points so you can bring them in decent numbers or add enough support they will suddenly start shining.
The biggest problem of the dread mob right now is that you cannot bring enough models to have the typical target saturation orks mostly use as a defense. Even if you mix bikes in with the walkers (they are also weak to multi-damage weapons), you simply cannot reach the wound count to outnumber our opponent's weapons damage potential - especially when your opponent has some hot dice and takes out a whole squad of kanz because he rolled some fives and sixes for damage.
What might help is moving Kanz to troops, providing the army with more CP and granting them objective secure. It's not like they are harder to shift than GK terminators.
Waaagh Junkie wrote: Is anyone having any units good at destroying imperial knight armies, like say 3 of them with gilliman?
One thing to remember facing knights (or any other army composed of a small number of powerful units) is that their split fire has to be completely declared before they roll any dice.
In the multi-knight list, you might try tankbustas in trukks. Each knight will need to declare how many weapons will be allocated to which trukk, and its spilled contents.
There is a good chance the first knight will either focus on 1 trukk and waste the rest of its shots, or to split among several trukks and not get them all.
Likely it will take the second knight to clean up the tankbustas...certainly no problem for it, but always force your opponent to map out their shooting from each knight before rolling. That way there is a good chance of him overkilling something.
It may not be much, but anything help is better than nothing.
Waaagh Junkie wrote: Is anyone having any units good at destroying imperial knight armies, like say 3 of them with gilliman?
One thing to remember facing knights (or any other army composed of a small number of powerful units) is that their split fire has to be completely declared before they roll any dice.
In the multi-knight list, you might try tankbustas in trukks. Each knight will need to declare how many weapons will be allocated to which trukk, and its spilled contents.
Waitwaitwait.
I just reread the rule and think that you actually have to declare all target before shooting a single weapon. Which means that all targets need to be visible to the shooting units, which passengers are not.
Which means that a unit which destroyed a transport can never shoot the passengers. Right?
Waaagh Junkie wrote: Is anyone having any units good at destroying imperial knight armies, like say 3 of them with gilliman?
One thing to remember facing knights (or any other army composed of a small number of powerful units) is that their split fire has to be completely declared before they roll any dice.
In the multi-knight list, you might try tankbustas in trukks. Each knight will need to declare how many weapons will be allocated to which trukk, and its spilled contents.
Waitwaitwait.
I just reread the rule and think that you actually have to declare all target before shooting a single weapon. Which means that all targets need to be visible to the shooting units, which passengers are not.
Which means that a unit which destroyed a transport can never shoot the passengers. Right?
Correct. The same unit can't shoot some of its weapons at the Trukk, blow it up, and then use different weapons to shoot the Boyz inside it. All the targets from that Knight have to be announced before any rolls are made. However, if the 1st Knight blows up the Trukk, the 2nd Knight can shoot at the Boyz inside.
Jidmah wrote: Da jump is pretty terrifying for many armies, it doesn't really need a buff. Keep in mind that not every army is a primarch blueberry donut or conscript meatgrinder.
A much more sensitive buff to dreads and nauts would be removing bike meks repair limitation after moving more than 5".
I don't think the rules of KANz, Dreads or Nauts are bad though. If they lose enough points so you can bring them in decent numbers or add enough support they will suddenly start shining.
The biggest problem of the dread mob right now is that you cannot bring enough models to have the typical target saturation orks mostly use as a defense. Even if you mix bikes in with the walkers (they are also weak to multi-damage weapons), you simply cannot reach the wound count to outnumber our opponent's weapons damage potential - especially when your opponent has some hot dice and takes out a whole squad of kanz because he rolled some fives and sixes for damage.
What might help is moving Kanz to troops, providing the army with more CP and granting them objective secure. It's not like they are harder to shift than GK terminators.
Yeah Da Jump doesn't really need a buff. As for vehicles I mostly agree, the only buff I would like is making Dreads a bit faster maybe 8" move or allow them to benefit from Waaagh, as is they can be a bit slow for a close combat unit.
I think the buff I would like to see is to make the Battlewagon T8 base. As it is now it is barely more durable than a rhino (it takes 32 wounds to kill vs 30 for a Rhino with AP 0, 24 vs 20 at AP -1, 19.2 vs 15 at -2, and 16 vs 12 at -3, it remains 16 v 10 at -4+). And costs twice more than twice as much with no upgrades. It's biggest advantage over 2 Rhinos (161 points vs 144) would be that it is open topped and being better in combat, higher Strength (8 vs 6), WS 5+.
The thing about dreads/kanz is they dont get weaker unlike other vehicles, heck even the TRUKK gets weaker as it gets hurt. That is actually a pretty strong perk as ive had my deffdread wittled down to 1hp, pop 2cp to attack next and outright pummel a character (in this case, daemon prince), before i get finished off. Despite being a 1W vehicle, im still swinging full strength because i dont have variable stats.
But i do wish they were slightly faster, or could advance + charge. Getting them into combat is so hard, though they usually shred things once they get there. Still say (been saying this since 5th) we should be able to transport a deffdread in a BW. I dont care if its insanely expensive to do that, it would be HILARIOUS and very orky lol
Deff Dreads definitely could use the benefit of the Waaagh! rule. It would be even better if they could indeed be slightly faster with their movement distance standard at 8" also. The Nauts should be able to move 10" standard. The fact that all of our units have WS 3+ (outside of the grechin units OC) is the attribute we should be building our armies around. I didn't say it was going to be easy to find ways to get into combat but worthwhile nevertheless.
How have you guys gotten around the issue of your boyz blobz getting out of the range of your buff units? I know you can sometimes conga line them to make sure they're within buff radius but often times even with advance moves people like Ghazghkull can't make the charge with the boyz which means they miss out on a lot of important bonuses. Are bikes for most characters basically mandatory for that reason?
With both units moving and advancing, the characters start off towards the front of the blob and usually are still within range by the time they get there. If you deploy 'em towards the back of the blob, it's easier for them to fall out of range as they move across the board. I haven't had too many problems with my blobs advancing so much further than the character that they fall out of range of the buff. If you have a few back-to-back-to-back poor advance rolls for the characters, you may have to create a short conga line to keep them in buff range, but that's usually an exception and not an expectation.
I guess I've been playing too carefully, I've been keeping them in the back most of the time since I have to deal with a lot of terrain/model ignoring armies like Harlequins who can really light up a character with their fusion pistols. Thanks for the advice!
Deff Dreadz I feel need to start off with a few more extra base attacks, and maybe make it so that a deff dread with all 4 PK's get's to re-roll advance rolls (if they get a run and charge buff, whether its being affected by WAAAGH! or it being an in-built rule, otherwise just give Deff Dreadz run and charge if they have all 4 CCWs).
After reading through the entirety of this thread during the past two weeks, I want to say "Thank You" to all of you who contributed to these valuable discussions - I did benefit a great deal by them, and feel I can finally challenge my groups' fellow players (who repeatedly spanked my butt during last edition).
But I still have one question before I can move on to list building (maybe it's obvious to the lot of you): do units of Kommandos and Deffkoptaz, when they are not placed during deployment (as per their respective abilities), count towards the total count of drops for determining who goes first?
Grimskul wrote: I guess I've been playing too carefully, I've been keeping them in the back most of the time since I have to deal with a lot of terrain/model ignoring armies like Harlequins who can really light up a character with their fusion pistols. Thanks for the advice!
Deff Dreadz I feel need to start off with a few more extra base attacks, and maybe make it so that a deff dread with all 4 PK's get's to re-roll advance rolls (if they get a run and charge buff, whether its being affected by WAAAGH! or it being an in-built rule, otherwise just give Deff Dreadz run and charge if they have all 4 CCWs).
Your caution is 6/7th ed experience. 8th ed is so easy to protect characters its kinda silly.
The rules make no mention about legal targets closer than the character, just that there are models closer. A little, pathetic Grot hiding behind a barricade thats too tall for his tiny green butt to see over could prevent an entire gunline from hitting a character, even though they cant see the grot. Same goes for any boyz that get melee and said character does not, even though theyre not legal targets they prevent character killing.
i wouldnt suggest using the grot that way though lol...any elevation would still see him.
Are you calculating the dread's attacks right? Each klaw adds an attack now rather than after the 1st so they have 5 attacks with 3 klaws. While not insane, its pretty respectable.
After reading through the entirety of this thread during the past two weeks, I want to say "Thank You" to all of you who contributed to these valuable discussions - I did benefit a great deal by them, and feel I can finally challenge my groups' fellow players (who repeatedly spanked my butt during last edition).
But I still have one question before I can move on to list building (maybe it's obvious to the lot of you): do units of Kommandos and Deffkoptaz, when they are not placed during deployment (as per their respective abilities), count towards the total count of drops for determining who goes first?
Yep. Just declare "1 unit of kommandos in reserve" for your drop, then the other player drops 1, and so on. Counts just the same.
DeffSquig wrote: Bummer. So Deffkoptaz and Kommandos in reserve cannot used to reduce your total drop count...? What a pity.
If you are going heavy on reserves do what did in my last ITC tournament. Declare ALL reserves first, since you know you won't be getting that +1 then its best to see where he is placing his army and adjust accordingly and then hope you get better roles or a seize.
My last tournament had 7 Units of Kommandos and 3 Units of Koptas in reserve. Most armies don't even have 10 drops
Grimskul wrote: How have you guys gotten around the issue of your boyz blobz getting out of the range of your buff units?
I'm fielding more boyz and less buff units. Basically, the only buff unit i'm running is Ghaz. I find painboyz and banners pretty overpriced when you can just spend more points on bodies that you'll always lack. Especially now when terrain doesn't mean anything most of the time.
Vineheart01 wrote: A little, pathetic Grot hiding behind a barricade thats too tall for his tiny green butt to see over could prevent an entire gunline from hitting a character, even though they cant see the grot.
Actually, no. A character can be a legal target if it's the closest VISIBLE ennemy unit. A grot hidden behind a barricade could not protect a CHARACTER from being shot.
Smite has the same wording, yet I always see people playing it wrong.
Vineheart01 wrote: A little, pathetic Grot hiding behind a barricade thats too tall for his tiny green butt to see over could prevent an entire gunline from hitting a character, even though they cant see the grot.
Actually, no. A character can be a legal target if it's the closest VISIBLE ennemy unit. A grot hidden behind a barricade could not protect a CHARACTER from being shot.
Smite has the same wording, yet I always see people playing it wrong.
I think GW has clarified it in the faq. The character needs to be closest regardless of los.
wtwlf123 wrote:Correct. The same unit can't shoot some of its weapons at the Trukk, blow it up, and then use different weapons to shoot the Boyz inside it. All the targets from that Knight have to be announced before any rolls are made. However, if the 1st Knight blows up the Trukk, the 2nd Knight can shoot at the Boyz inside.
I guess I have been "cheated" multiple times. Centurions, Soul Grinders, Tactical Marines, Defilers and other units have been blowing up my battlewagons with their heavy guns and then gunned down the passengers with their lighter weapons.
As there aren't any ork units that would care about this, I never gave the shooting rules that close of a look. Damn.
Grimskul wrote:How have you guys gotten around the issue of your boyz blobz getting out of the range of your buff units? I know you can sometimes conga line them to make sure they're within buff radius but often times even with advance moves people like Ghazghkull can't make the charge with the boyz which means they miss out on a lot of important bonuses. Are bikes for most characters basically mandatory for that reason?
I usually keep them on the frontlines, with no more than row of boyz in front of them. Best case I have enough room for the character to make a heroic intervention, surprising amounts of enemies don't declare the characters as charge targets, so they can add their attacks without being in danger. If you keep them in the back I see how you can lose your buff when charging, but when the banner, ghaz or a dok is in the second row, they can often just join the charge.
Now that it's allowed, what are we saying to mixing shootas and sluggas/chopped in boyz mobs? Personally I can't see an advantage, but wanted to see if anyone had any hot takes.
Nazrak wrote: Now that it's allowed, what are we saying to mixing shootas and sluggas/chopped in boyz mobs? Personally I can't see an advantage, but wanted to see if anyone had any hot takes.
I've done it a few times, if you are chaining guys back to buff characters the shootas can be good to give a little bit of punch and die first. But there is not a huge advantage.
tbh i keep forgetting i can mix sluggas n shootas
Its probably a wise idea to have the back 10-12 boyz be Shootas so each unit can get a little bit of dakka on the way up. Odds are thats how many boyz wont be able to melee anyway, and just remove them first as they die.
Hi
I also thought that mek Orks lack a real punch. In order to fix this I decided to orkify an Imperial Knight. Due to that it is a Lord-of-War model, it is rather easy to just add as a separate SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT. The 8th edition roles does not give any restriction to ally detachments from different fractions.
In 1k or 1.5k list, I believe that you can build a rather compatible list with one Knight and an Ork battalion. Apart from this I got rather satisfied with my ork-Knight, I used a Deffdread body as head.
Vineheart01 wrote: tbh i keep forgetting i can mix sluggas n shootas
Its probably a wise idea to have the back 10-12 boyz be Shootas so each unit can get a little bit of dakka on the way up. Odds are thats how many boyz wont be able to melee anyway, and just remove them first as they die.
I've been wanting to try this but sadly don't have enough Boyz (!).
Or rather, tons of Shoota Boyz. Not enough Slugga Boyz.
Nora wrote: Hi
I also thought that mek Orks lack a real punch. In order to fix this I decided to orkify an Imperial Knight. Due to that it is a Lord-of-War model, it is rather easy to just add as a separate SUPER-HEAVY AUXILIARY DETACHMENT. The 8th edition roles does not give any restriction to ally detachments from different fractions.
In 1k or 1.5k list, I believe that you can build a rather compatible list with one Knight and an Ork battalion. Apart from this I got rather satisfied with my ork-Knight, I used a Deffdread body as head.
Looted Imperial Knights would be awesome Sadly I'm stuck with the Stompa or FW options since my group is extremely pissy about RAW.
How are we allowed to run an allied knight? I thought all detachments had to share a keyword? Such as "imperium" or "ork" etc and there are no books with anything that shares keywords with us orcses?
+1 to not having enough choppa boys but plethora of shoota boys lol. 5th ed problems or something?
I'm actually 50-50 slugga/shoota. I have about 70 sluggas via several salvaged AOBR boxes and around 80 shootas or so...actually assembled anyway i think i got about 50 more boyz at least that are on sprues LOL The reason i have been running 2x30 sluggas and a 30 shoota was because i didnt have enough sluggas for triple slugga30man blobs. However in light of that i noticed having more than 2 squads of sluggas kinda doesnt do much lol, whatever is in front dies first so i might as well let them shoot things while they advance (trust me it does matter, several times that shoota squad took out about half of the unit they were charging at before even making the charge lol)
skyfi wrote: How are we allowed to run an allied knight? I thought all detachments had to share a keyword? Such as "imperium" or "ork" etc and there are no books with anything that shares keywords with us orcses?
+1 to not having enough choppa boys but plethora of shoota boys lol. 5th ed problems or something?
You're correct, in matched play games and battleforged armies, you need to have at least one faction keyword in common for all detachments. So we can't legally take an IK without either house-ruling or resorting to narrative/open play.
skyfi wrote: How are we allowed to run an allied knight? I thought all detachments had to share a keyword? Such as "imperium" or "ork" etc and there are no books with anything that shares keywords with us orcses?
+1 to not having enough choppa boys but plethora of shoota boys lol. 5th ed problems or something?
You're correct, in matched play games and battleforged armies, you need to have at least one faction keyword in common for all detachments. So we can't legally take an IK without either house-ruling or resorting to narrative/open play.
Yup, so the allied rule is literally an imperial army thing now rather than just highly supportive of imperial.
Really hope they remove that gak. Leave IK's being allowed in but otherwise no one army and one army alone, not one Imperial army one Space Marine or Blood Angels army.
Ironically i bought my tau when i first started playing in early 6th because i wanted some good background shooting and they were the best i could ally in. Then they got ridiculous and i abandoned my orks until now lol
skyfi wrote: How are we allowed to run an allied knight? I thought all detachments had to share a keyword? Such as "imperium" or "ork" etc and there are no books with anything that shares keywords with us orcses?
+1 to not having enough choppa boys but plethora of shoota boys lol. 5th ed problems or something?
You're correct, in matched play games and battleforged armies, you need to have at least one faction keyword in common for all detachments. So we can't legally take an IK without either house-ruling or resorting to narrative/open play.
Yup, though I just converted a gorka-knight to use as my second gorkanaut just to have some variety in my army.
That's not quite true its not just imperial players that can ally in matched play.
You have
imperials
Ynnari (which is nearly all elder units)
chaos (both demons and marines)
tyranids (which includes both GSC and Astra militarum)
Then you have the 3 that currently cant ally in matched play tau, necrons, and orks.
Personally I think Gw should let orks allow a limited allied chaos detachment like gsc has with AM.
Necrons should allow a limited allied imperial detachment maybe with trazyn
and tau allowed a limited elder craftworld detachment
although none of the above 3 are super fluffy or common armies.
I don't miss allies. I disliked idea of allied armies for sake of being a WAAC list while bringing 2 forces that seemingly don't mesh. I liked the conversions I would see, but don't miss the ultra competitive list building it seemed to promote. I just want orks to be orks! So I'm happy with the ally rules as is, but think it's odd tyranids can ally with AM because of GSC. Odd.
skyfi wrote: I don't miss allies. I disliked idea of allied armies for sake of being a WAAC list while bringing 2 forces that seemingly don't mesh. I liked the conversions I would see, but don't miss the ultra competitive list building it seemed to promote. I just want orks to be orks! So I'm happy with the ally rules as is, but think it's odd tyranids can ally with AM because of GSC. Odd.
I agree. No need to give allies to orks, just give us balanced units so we can take the kind of army we want yet not get shot off the board. The orks have just about everything, just not costed appropriately.
gungo wrote: That's not quite true its not just imperial players that can ally in matched play.
You have
imperials
Ynnari (which is nearly all elder units)
chaos (both demons and marines)
tyranids (which includes both GSC and Astra militarum)
Then you have the 3 that currently cant ally in matched play tau, necrons, and orks.
Personally I think Gw should let orks allow a limited allied chaos detachment like gsc has with AM.
Necrons should allow a limited allied imperial detachment maybe with trazyn
and tau allowed a limited elder craftworld detachment
although none of the above 3 are super fluffy or common armies.
Nah, I'd rather see allies reduced not expanded. Imperium are the largest issue as that faction makes up essentially half the game. (40% if you just go by number of indices). Chaos makes up about 20% (based on being a single index), Aeldari a little less than that. Nids even less.
skyfi wrote: I don't miss allies. I disliked idea of allied armies for sake of being a WAAC list while bringing 2 forces that seemingly don't mesh. I liked the conversions I would see, but don't miss the ultra competitive list building it seemed to promote. I just want orks to be orks! So I'm happy with the ally rules as is, but think it's odd tyranids can ally with AM because of GSC. Odd.
Technically its not AM but the planetary defense force of whichever planet was taken over by the GSC.
I agree. No need to give allies to orks, just give us balanced units so we can take the kind of army we want yet not get shot off the board. The orks have just about everything, just not costed appropriately.
Actually, that would be an elegant solution for looted wagons. Have a detachment where you can take any vehicle unit with the Imperial keyword and change its BS to 5+ and reduce its armor to 4+.
there better be a price cut for that though. Dropping from BS3+ to BS5+ is massive.
Has anybody had any reason to take a MA Boss? Not Ghaz, as in a standard boss in MA. I actually dont want to use Ghaz since he's Goff...even though his abilities arent clan tied (i like my badmoonz colors lol) Kinda funny. I've had a couple AOBR bosses completely unpainted as i never used them or even wanted to use them, since MAWarbosses were infinitely better. Now the sheer price difference and transports costing so much i find myself just using my AOBR bosses now lol (which i finally painted one in badmoonz). Still have the klaw since S12 ftw, but it just feels weird running a regular boss again after so bloody long....
Vineheart01 wrote: there better be a price cut for that though. Dropping from BS3+ to BS5+ is massive.
Has anybody had any reason to take a MA Boss? Not Ghaz, as in a standard boss in MA. I actually dont want to use Ghaz since he's Goff...even though his abilities arent clan tied (i like my badmoonz colors lol) Kinda funny. I've had a couple AOBR bosses completely unpainted as i never used them or even wanted to use them, since MAWarbosses were infinitely better. Now the sheer price difference and transports costing so much i find myself just using my AOBR bosses now lol (which i finally painted one in badmoonz). Still have the klaw since S12 ftw, but it just feels weird running a regular boss again after so bloody long....
Unfortunately, given how much a MAWB costs and that you're forced to pay for the power klaw, he really seems inferior to the Warboss on Bike or even on foot. Losing that extra inch of movement hurts and the 2+ save, although nice, doesn't come as a bargain like it used to especially since he can't tank hits for the boyz anymore. Don't get me wrong the 2+ save is nice, but the only things that your opponent will deliberately send after him will be able to get through your armour. If there was an invuln. built into it like terminator armour then there'd be some competition, but otherwise I feel like it doesn't, especially with someone like Ghazzy available as an option.
In that same vein, how is running multiple warbosses in a list usually work ratio wise to boyz? Is it 1:1 or around 1 every two units of boyz?
My Ghaz is painted yellow. His abilities aren't clan locked so to hell with their keywords.
Otherwise the biker boss has too many advantages for the cost over MA. Speed is worth a lot more than the 2+ save since he can keep up with Boyz and Stormboy and can operate independently if need be.
Vineheart01 wrote: there better be a price cut for that though.
Dropping from BS3+ to BS5+ is massive.
Has anybody had any reason to take a MA Boss? Not Ghaz, as in a standard boss in MA. I actually dont want to use Ghaz since he's Goff...even though his abilities arent clan tied (i like my badmoonz colors lol)
Kinda funny. I've had a couple AOBR bosses completely unpainted as i never used them or even wanted to use them, since MAWarbosses were infinitely better. Now the sheer price difference and transports costing so much i find myself just using my AOBR bosses now lol (which i finally painted one in badmoonz). Still have the klaw since S12 ftw, but it just feels weird running a regular boss again after so bloody long....
Unfortunately, given how much a MAWB costs and that you're forced to pay for the power klaw, he really seems inferior to the Warboss on Bike or even on foot. Losing that extra inch of movement hurts and the 2+ save, although nice, doesn't come as a bargain like it used to especially since he can't tank hits for the boyz anymore. Don't get me wrong the 2+ save is nice, but the only things that your opponent will deliberately send after him will be able to get through your armour. If there was an invuln. built into it like terminator armour then there'd be some competition, but otherwise I feel like it doesn't, especially with someone like Ghazzy available as an option.
In that same vein, how is running multiple warbosses in a list usually work ratio wise to boyz? Is it 1:1 or around 1 every two units of boyz?
kinda my thought too. Hes well over 100pts and MA isnt that great anymore. His PK is still great but MA is such a deadweight.
I havnt ran multiple bosses yet but i really rarely see a need for them. Course i only run 3 30boy squads
I find myself using 'eavy Armour Warbosses always. BikerBoss is probably best though although Zhadsnark probably does it better. I just don't have the models since selling mine and frankly don't care for Bikes much since I'm considering a White Scars army.
MA really drags behind when the Boyz move an extra inch.
Price mainly. Its 131 base. Adding on one of pratically any big gun Orks have access to makes it cost about as much (give or take 10pts) as a naked Battlewagon and quite frankly it isnt much squishier as a result. T6 15W is pretty close to T7 18W. It has less transport capacity though. 12 models by default, goes down to 6 in order to take one of the big guns like Zzaps, Supa Skorcha, big lobba, KillKannon, etc. Or negate its capacity for a supakannon.
Still, you could probably take 2 of them for around 40% more than a single wagon toting the same big guns and have twice the gunz (though it cant have both a "big gun" and a supakannon)
It has a very different role compared to the BW though. I use BWs to transport and deliver 20 orks, no other reason.
Remember that the BW becomes T8 if you take it as a transport, which makes it quite more durable than big trakks.
With a capacity of 6-12 models the big trakk looks more an alternative to trukks. That big trakk serves the same role of the trukk+tankbustas/lootas/flash gitz combo. Or maybe it can be seen as an alternative to buggies/deffkpotas too.
beigeknight wrote: I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to FW stuff, what's hot about the Big Trakk? What makes it more desirable than a battlewagon?
Well it has some alternative cool weapons but limited transport capacity - even more if you take the big guns.
Plus it can repair itself and is a bit cheaper.
Imo a good option when you don`t need full capacity of 20 models.
I don't miss allies. I disliked idea of allied armies for sake of being a WAAC list while bringing 2 forces that seemingly don't mesh. I liked the conversions I would see, but don't miss the ultra competitive list building it seemed to promote. I just want orks to be orks! So I'm happy with the ally rules as is, but think it's odd tyranids can ally with AM because of GSC. Odd.
I agree. No need to give allies to orks, just give us balanced units so we can take the kind of army we want yet not get shot off the board. The orks have just about everything, just not costed appropriately.
Fully agree with you, no need for allies.
That whole allies system bugged me ever since GW brought it into 40k.
Not the idea itself which is fine for fluff lists but let`s be realistic, 99% is just people trying to max out.
Has anybody had any reason to take a MA Boss? Not Ghaz, as in a standard boss in MA. I actually dont want to use Ghaz since he's Goff...even though his abilities arent clan tied (i like my badmoonz colors lol)
Kinda funny. I've had a couple AOBR bosses completely unpainted as i never used them or even wanted to use them, since MAWarbosses were infinitely better. Now the sheer price difference and transports costing so much i find myself just using my AOBR bosses now lol (which i finally painted one in badmoonz). Still have the klaw since S12 ftw, but it just feels weird running a regular boss again after so bloody long....
As a Bad Moons player i have the same problem, i won`t take Ghaz, even painted yellow. Guess with the Codex he will be Goff only anyway.
The Warboss in MA is fine. Not that CC beast he was before, more of a supporter now.
So his poor movement is not that bad and he can stick around with banner / dok and offer them some protection while they all buff the boys in front.
I always bring a shooty battlewaggon with some free seats for my characters. So i have less drops and the 3" disembarking + moving + advancing works most of the time to get him where he needs to be.
But basicly my main reason to stick with him is the work i put in my model - can`t leave him behind.
Anybody use the Battlescribe app? I downloaded it so i can stop having to flip pages in the index (and make lists on the fly) but its charging me a flat 17pts increase to add a Nob to a boy squad (my understand was that is suppose to be free in 8th, and even if it isnt free what happened to the 6pt boy i just replaced?) and theres no Ghaz available.
Well considering i just installed it and the file was last updated on Aug7 i hope its the most up to date.
Says WH40k 8th Mobile v34 and Orks v30 Its also not calculating deffdreads right, i think its charging me the 2ndklaw cost for all 3 klaws rather than just the 2nd and 3rd klaw
Vineheart01 wrote: Well considering i just installed it and the file was last updated on Aug7 i hope its the most up to date.
Says WH40k 8th Mobile v34 and Orks v30
Its also not calculating deffdreads right, i think its charging me the 2ndklaw cost for all 3 klaws rather than just the 2nd and 3rd klaw
I think you want to go with the data source that just says Warhammer 40,000 ignoring the mobile edition. It was updated 8/21/17 and seems to have the correct data.
Well, that was annoying. Guess thats why battlescribe is generally considered pretty crap but better than nothing
Thanks!
yeah I hate battle scribe. I have it, but usually build my lists elsewhere. In this edition it is particularly bad for factions that have "allies" because you cannot mix factions in detachments. It also has had some points errors etc. So I always write my own lists for tournaments.
Online Codex always worked perfekt for me.
German site including a feedback / bug & error report forum - but the OC itself is english.
Detachments, allies, etc. are also no problem and they regularly update it.
Ork lists that I've been building in Battlescribe have always had correct info and costs. It's also pretty easy to use. I don't really understand why people seem to think it's somehow difficult. Build a couple lists and it becomes pretty much routine and you wonder how you ever survived without it.
Some more "individualistic" units like SW Wolf Guard or HQs can get a bit convoluted sometimes especially after FAQs change things around but other than that I've really had no issues.
Weazel wrote: Ork lists that I've been building in Battlescribe have always had correct info and costs. It's also pretty easy to use. I don't really understand why people seem to think it's somehow difficult. Build a couple lists and it becomes pretty much routine and you wonder how you ever survived without it.
Some more "individualistic" units like SW Wolf Guard or HQs can get a bit convoluted sometimes especially after FAQs change things around but other than that I've really had no issues.
I know at least grotsnik had the wrong points initially, he was paying for his wargear when he doesn't need too. As for finding it difficult, it is mostly just the way it is built where adding units/detachments requires multiple drill downs, especially in this edition where you might shuffle units between detachments to make things fit or maximize CP. I also know for a fact that for factions that can take mixed detachments it doesn't seem to work at all. It also has some counter intuitive design on some units where you need to be selecting a model to duplicate it instead of doing that on the unit level screen (Kans, Dreads, Nobz work like this). I can use it just fine, but unless I am away from a computer when making my list I prefer excel and my codex for building a list, especially for tournaments. Plus I like having a paper copy of my list and find Battlescribe has too much extra stuff on their printout.
Its clunky but you absolutely can make mixed detachments with battlescribe. Say you name a list Imperium and take a detachment of Marines. When you add a second detachment to the list, your given the option of where to put it - if you choose the Marine detachment, it will give you the ability to make a mixed detachment.
Battlescribe is fantastic for a free service. Once you get the hang of how it works, making a list is simple as. One thing ive found useful is to put everything you want to take in one detachment and mentally separate it into various smaller detachments for maximising CPs. Its easier while you are tinkering than creating and deleting different detachments.
cheesedupree wrote: Its clunky but you absolutely can make mixed detachments with battlescribe. Say you name a list Imperium and take a detachment of Marines. When you add a second detachment to the list, your given the option of where to put it - if you choose the Marine detachment, it will give you the ability to make a mixed detachment.
Battlescribe is fantastic for a free service. Once you get the hang of how it works, making a list is simple as. One thing ive found useful is to put everything you want to take in one detachment and mentally separate it into various smaller detachments for maximising CPs. Its easier while you are tinkering than creating and deleting different detachments.
Which is still harder than using a spreadsheet because then the detachments are not split out. Good to know about the mixed detachments, though I don't like the way the list print out looks at that point. It is great for a free service, and I do use it at times. It is just not my preferred method of list creation. Especially because I am trusting someone else to not have made mistakes with points, and I have seen a few in my lists that I did not notice until a second or third look. When I tried to make the same list in excel, and was over on points.
I pretty much wouldn't survive without Battlescribe. I do the yearly subscription on both my phone and computer... costs less than a pot of paint and makes my life so much easier.
As for detachments, I find it pretty easy to do them in Battlescribe, but then I know what I'm putting in which detachment before I go to my laptop.
Anpu-adom wrote: I pretty much wouldn't survive without Battlescribe. I do the yearly subscription on both my phone and computer... costs less than a pot of paint and makes my life so much easier.
As for detachments, I find it pretty easy to do them in Battlescribe, but then I know what I'm putting in which detachment before I go to my laptop.
At which point I would ask why you need the app at all? If I knew exactly what was in every detachment I would have the list already built. I mean everyone is different in their process I suppose, I do a lot of shuffling units around, in and out of my lists etc, so I find battlescribe to be very clunky. I would also never pay for an army building APP simply because I don't need it. I did once for army builder years ago, but still ended up building all my lists in MS excel.
If you're just using the mobile app then yeah it's pretty clunky. But outside Tinder, there aren't many more productive things to do on the toilet.
The desktop version is nice though. It does have problems with allies I think, but you can at least use it as a sandbox to play with points values in that case, then draw up the units in Excel or something to reflect the actual detachments.
Have been reading through this thread to get a sense of how Orks are faring in 8th edition, and all that happened is I got more confused.
Can any experienced Ork players chime in on some of the things I have heard, but seem to contradict each other?
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
Debatable, Most builds revolve around Boyz, Storm Boyz and characters. There are a few other borderline competitive units, but right now most things seem to be saying more boyz is best.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
Ork shooting is a bit down due to the loss of blast weapons, but the biggest down on it is loss of good cover saves for our shooting units. For the most part these units die quickly if an opponent wants them to. Or you need to pay for a transport which makes them cost a good deal more.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
This is true, orks are better off because charging allows them to strike first, they have more attacks, and are always S4. Da Jump psychic power allows large squads to be moved more easily.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
They are improved, they are not incredible in close combat, they can be passible if you buff them with a Banner Nob, but hitting on a 5+ really hurts them. I think kan wall might work, but I would not say most competitive lists spam kans at this point.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
HQ is really a section we are spoiled for choice in Big Meks, Warbosses, Weirdboyz are all good choices. Ghaz is also good, other SC are not as good. I'm working with snikrot right now and think he is a decent choice.
Painboyz are elite choices, and I'm not really sold on them for their cost. They aren't bad, but I'm not sure they are good either.
- You can call WAAAGH every turn if you want to.
Waaaagh is just an aura ability on warbosses now. It allows units within 6" of the warboss to charge even if they advanced(ran) this turn.
techsoldaten wrote: Have been reading through this thread to get a sense of how Orks are faring in 8th edition, and all that happened is I got more confused.
Can any experienced Ork players chime in on some of the things I have heard, but seem to contradict each other?
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
- You can call WAAAGH every turn if you want to.
-1 There is one half decent list
-2 Yes, very much
-3 yes
-4 Nope, kans are better but still trash for the points
-5 Mostly true
-6 Yes
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
Yes they have improved but so has (almost) everything else.
They get in CC faster and have better morale, which is nice.
Vehicles are a lot more durable but there is a lot more stuff that does multiple damage.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
Yeah templates going is bad since we have a poor BS. We can still put out lots of dakka with all the D6 / 2D6, assault weapons while advancing and sync. weapons with double shots.
What also hits us are all the hit roll modifiers. Only way to compensate the 6+ hits is to bring lots of firepower.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
Absolutely. Morale is better than ever and the boys move really fast.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
They are not that good but they do ok. Good in mech lists with a lot of walkers / vehicles and good KFF protection.
What you will see most is still 100+ boys with Ghaz, Wyrdboys, buff characters and some Kommandos / Stormboys.
Pain in the ass to play and in tournaments you barely see turn 4+ - well it`s a way to win since till turn 3 most of that horde will still lurk around.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
Ghaz and Wyrdboy are very good, so is the Warboss. KFF Mek is still a valid choice.
Painboys work with enough boys or expensive stuff like nobs / Flash gits - Meks still do their job in mech builds.
Not their golden age i have to admit.
- You can call WAAAGH every turn if you want to.
It`s a special rule of the warboss that is active all the time but only 6" around him.
Since he is more of a supporter now you have good chances to get that bonus more than once - but no more army wide effect.
Kanz tend to do more work for me than the deffdreads which is kinda funny. Everyone focuses the trio of dreads first. Usually one dies instantly, another is badly hurt, third actually does something but the kanz are just completely unharmed. They dont SOUND like a threat because theyre S7 vs S10, hit on 5s vs hit on 3s, and a base profile of 3 attacks vs the 3klaw Dread having 5. But...theres 6 of them, long as theres 3+ they have 4 attacks. Thats 24 attacks that each do -3AP and flat 3 damage...the amount of crap ive had them mulch because my opponent didnt think they'd be a threat is hilarious. More often than not i only need 3 of them to land anyway (as in wound)
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
False, Ork boyz and a handful of other units like weirdboyz/stormboyz/Ghaz are improved but the majority of the codex is hot garbage, there is 1 competitive list right now that has 2 variants. Spam Boyz with characters OR Spam Stormboyz with characters. nothing else is remotely close to being as competitive as that in our index.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
Ork shooting got hit by the nerf bat until it was unconscious and then GW hit it a few more times for good measure. The only reason ork shooting was remotely useful last edition was because it was cheap and it could camp in cover to negate its abysmal durability issues. We lost the cover bonus by 50% and the cost of our units went through the roof. A Rokkit went from 5pts to 12, a pair of rokkits went from being a free upgrade on the Deff Kopta to being a 28pt upgrade. The new rule for Twin Linked weapons hurt orks more then it helped, our handful of TL weapons went from averaging 1.66 hits on a 3 shot weapon to 2, a SM Went from 2.66 to 4. We get a .34 buff they got a 1.34 buff.
Overall though the nerf to templates was the biggest loss and gain for Orkz, the loss is because we relied on blasts to get any kind of decent hits, now that this is gone we have exceptionally expensive and useless weapons like the Kill kannon which averages 1 hit a turn, where before it could usually get up to 5-8 if they weren't spaced out. The gain for us is that we no longer have to spend 20 minutes spacing our units out the max distance from one another for fear or a couple blast or flamer templates. No longer are you going to lose 20 boyz to a couple Heavy Flamers.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
they are most definitely deadlier, the chance to boyz stats was good, the real buff though was getting rid of Initiative. It isn't that much easier to get up the board, in fact orks are now SLOWER then ever with the loss of 16.6% of our movement, the loss of Trukkz being useful for boyz and the inherent problems of using battlewagons for boyz. The buff to mob rule was nice, it isn't that great though, I mean it beats the hell out of 7th edition mob rule but its still not on the level of pre-7th edition Mob rule which made orkz fearless until they dropped below 10 models. The real trick to the new Leadership conundrum is to keep everything close together so if one mob gets eaten alive it can use the 30leadership of its neighbor instead of dying outright. And it is slightly easier to get the charge these days, this has more to do with the new rule about being within 1 inch rather then having to be base to base, it almost gives us an extra inch for the charge.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
False, Ork Kanz got nerfed HARD in 7th they went up in price like 40-45% In 8th they went up in price again but not nearly as much. The problem for Kanz now is the fact that their 1 good weapon, the grotzooka, is heavy AND was blast. I used to liquidate entire enemy formations with Grotzookas, even terminators were scared of them, now? 2D3 shots = 4 shots, hitting on 5s = 1 hit on average. The only other good weapon for a Kan is a Rokkit and ev that is a bad choice now because it was a 5pt upgrade and it is now a 12pt upgrade. Kanz other issues are the Klaws they have which are hitting on 5s. Why they couldn't at least be 4s is beyond me but its a huge problem for Kanz and makes them unreliable to say the least in CC. Kanz are not seen in competitive lists, they are seen in for fun games and fluffy lists.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
False, HQs in the ork code are ok, not the best but certainly not bad. Warbosses are good, Weirdboyz and Ghaz are GREAT, Mek Boyz are ok, that 5++ bubble is useful but its not a HUGE buff and is still expensive and requires you to bunch up a lot, seeding control of the board to your opponent. Painboyz are kind of crap, i take one but not for the FNP buff, I use it mostly to heal ghaz and Weirdboyz who are blowing their own heads off.
- You can call WAAAGH every turn if you want to.
You could do that last edition as well in 2 different formations, the difference is that it is now based on being within 6' of a Warboss or Ghaz.
I'm finding it really hard to deal with Raven Guard Aggressors camping on the 2nd+ level of ruins... how are y'all dealing with something like this?
T5, 2+ saves from cover, 2 wounds each, and hard to hit from 12" or more away...
Even with da jump, I'm looking at something like 11-12" of necessary charge in order to get into melee with them. Shooting them isn't really an option, with how bad ork shooting is, and that raven guard chapter tactic.
Any thoughts? We've had the discussion about dealing with them on the offense, but they're just as hard a nut to crack when firing at them as well...
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm finding it really hard to deal with Raven Guard Aggressors camping on the 2nd+ level of ruins... how are y'all dealing with something like this?
T5, 2+ saves from cover, 2 wounds each, and hard to hit from 12" or more away...
Even with da jump, I'm looking at something like 11-12" of necessary charge in order to get into melee with them. Shooting them isn't really an option, with how bad ork shooting is, and that raven guard chapter tactic.
Any thoughts? We've had the discussion about dealing with them on the offense, but they're just as hard a nut to crack when firing at them as well...
I thought they only had 18" range, so why not just avoid them? Beyond that why is the charge so long from Da Jump? Is it that the levels are 6" or something?
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm finding it really hard to deal with Raven Guard Aggressors camping on the 2nd+ level of ruins... how are y'all dealing with something like this?
T5, 2+ saves from cover, 2 wounds each, and hard to hit from 12" or more away...
Even with da jump, I'm looking at something like 11-12" of necessary charge in order to get into melee with them. Shooting them isn't really an option, with how bad ork shooting is, and that raven guard chapter tactic.
Any thoughts? We've had the discussion about dealing with them on the offense, but they're just as hard a nut to crack when firing at them as well...
I thought they only had 18" range, so why not just avoid them? Beyond that why is the charge so long from Da Jump? Is it that the levels are 6" or something?
The problem is the 9" for "deep strike" is interpreted as "as the crow flies" but any move toward the enemy is interpreted as "move laterally, then up," which is farther.
ajax_xaja wrote: I'm finding it really hard to deal with Raven Guard Aggressors camping on the 2nd+ level of ruins... how are y'all dealing with something like this?
T5, 2+ saves from cover, 2 wounds each, and hard to hit from 12" or more away...
Even with da jump, I'm looking at something like 11-12" of necessary charge in order to get into melee with them. Shooting them isn't really an option, with how bad ork shooting is, and that raven guard chapter tactic.
Any thoughts? We've had the discussion about dealing with them on the offense, but they're just as hard a nut to crack when firing at them as well...
I thought they only had 18" range, so why not just avoid them? Beyond that why is the charge so long from Da Jump? Is it that the levels are 6" or something?
The problem is the 9" for "deep strike" is interpreted as "as the crow flies" but any move toward the enemy is interpreted as "move laterally, then up," which is farther.
That is true it depends on how far up they are, but like I said they have very short range, so the further up they are the worse their ability to hit you becomes. You in theory you could use storm boyz as they could ignore the need to move laterally and then up.
well, even if its just a 2" elevation thats an 11" charge.
Plus isnt there a -2 to charging in terrain? Or did that go away and its just another rule that i missed as being omitted?
Vineheart01 wrote: well, even if its just a 2" elevation thats an 11" charge.
Plus isnt there a -2 to charging in terrain? Or did that go away and its just another rule that i missed as being omitted?
- Orks are much improved in 8th edition. There are several competitive army lists floating around.
IMHO they're worse now. We only have ONE semi-competitive list, which is also extremely boring to play. In 7th edition bikers spam, trukks spam with boyz, meganobz or bustas, bullyboyz, lobbas, single koptas were all quite good, not top tiers but not worse than the green tide in 8th edition.
- Ork shooting has actually been nerfed. The removal of template weapons has been a big blow and it's almost impossible to actually hit models that are in cover.
Orks shooting is a joke now because all the shooty units have become quite more expensive.
- Ork mobs are deadlier now with the changes to morale. It's easier to move up the board with large squads and get the charge.
Yeah, big mobz are quite strong but orks are still very squishy. They need a KFF bubble and a painboy to be tough, but this way you're investing pretty much the entire list in boyz and their buffs.
- Kans are much improved and incredible in close combat. The most competitive lists spam Kans.
I never played kans in my life but they don't seem better than the previous editions. A bit tougher maybe but grotzookas now suck and rokkits are expensive.
- There are one or two good HQ choices. Painboys and Mekboys are not as useful as they once were.
While it's true that painboyz were a bit nerfed now big meks are very popular and they can be an effective element of the green tide. in 7th edition big meks with KFF were more unusual.
Yes, but unless you run footsloggers (and again we're constantly stuck on that boring green tide) the waaagh rule it's not a big deal. It wasn't in previous editions either, when everything that needed to move was a vehicle or embarked in a vehicle or bikers/jetbikes.
Vineheart01 wrote: well, even if its just a 2" elevation thats an 11" charge.
Plus isnt there a -2 to charging in terrain? Or did that go away and its just another rule that i missed as being omitted?
Basically what was said here. I think standard ruins terrain has the height as 3" of vertical height as well...meaning models even on the 2nd level will need a 12" charge to get to.
I basically came to the same conclusion about the stormboyz, seems like they're the only real solution here besides maybe a killtank with a bursta, but even that dakka's not reliable.
Plight of the greenskins at the moment is that everything basically sums up to "boyz, stormboyz, more boyz".
From all of the rumors going around, it doesn't even seem like Orks will be getting their codex this year. Green tide's not really something that sounds fun to play or play against either. Has anyone found any decent shooty builds?
Otherwise, might be time to start putting together the primaris I've been collecting until codex drop.
-1 There is one half decent list
-2 Yes, very much
-3 yes
-4 Nope, kans are better but still trash for the points
-5 Mostly true
-6 Yes
Thank you to everyone who responded. This helps. It sounds like Orks can't deal with armor and shooting is a nightmare. Right to assume the only "good" list is a Green Tide?
Vineheart01 wrote: well, even if its just a 2" elevation thats an 11" charge.
Plus isnt there a -2 to charging in terrain? Or did that go away and its just another rule that i missed as being omitted?
Basically what was said here. I think standard ruins terrain has the height as 3" of vertical height as well...meaning models even on the 2nd level will need a 12" charge to get to.
I basically came to the same conclusion about the stormboyz, seems like they're the only real solution here besides maybe a killtank with a bursta, but even that dakka's not reliable.
Plight of the greenskins at the moment is that everything basically sums up to "boyz, stormboyz, more boyz".
From all of the rumors going around, it doesn't even seem like Orks will be getting their codex this year. Green tide's not really something that sounds fun to play or play against either. Has anyone found any decent shooty builds?
Otherwise, might be time to start putting together the primaris I've been collecting until codex drop.
Unfortunately we have no competitive shooting options. The best unit we have for shooting is still pathetically Mek Gunz. You can always field a couple batteries of KMKs and support it with some lootas and a screening force of Boyz, but realistically you will lose against any other shooting army, and you won't have enough dakka to take down CC armies before they rip into your forces. God help you if the enemy brings a flyer.
I still hold out hope for spamming Kanz/Dreadz. I want to try using my Morkanaut as a "Counts as" proxy for the MekaDread and see how it does while it supports 12 kanz and 2 dreadz with Banner Nob. My problem is that unfortunately I don't have enough walkers to make a 2,000pt list. Maybe field it with 2 Trukkz crammed full of Tank Bustas to add more High toughness targets and really confuse target priority. If I take units of 10 and 9 Tankbustas and only 1 Bomb squig I can put the 2 required HQs and Banner nob inside the trukkz to get away with only 6 drops.
CP would be a problem because its only 2 specialist formations for elites and Heavies But here is the units for both Detachments lumped together.
So 15 Walkers, 2 Trukkz and 2 Big Mekz and a Waagh Banner Nob who dismount as soon as the game starts. Definitely won't be holding objectives that well but it might be a nice counter meta for those expecting Hordes and getting High Toughness/decent armor targets instead.
-1 There is one half decent list
-2 Yes, very much
-3 yes
-4 Nope, kans are better but still trash for the points
-5 Mostly true
-6 Yes
Thank you to everyone who responded. This helps. It sounds like Orks can't deal with armor and shooting is a nightmare. Right to assume the only "good" list is a Green Tide?
You can still have limited success with a biker horde if you aren't facing a lot of imperial plasmaguns or de blasters. Some people are still playing mech orks - boyz and nobz in trukks and wagons. They've become significantly weaker but are still somewhat playable. But greentide is the strongest - that's true. You can certainly try to mix up boyz with stormboyz, try out different character combinations, backfield scorers and add a couple things like a dakkajet or kommandoes, and if you're into FW garg squiggoth is pretty powerful, but that's just playing around with the solid concept of having >100 bodies. And it's quite a restrictive one. Can't really mix it up too effectively cause you're loosing redundancy pretty quickly with how much everything else costs.
At the old making orks competitive post we used to have a nice colour coded summary on the first page with unit ranking and a small description. Can we do it here somehow?
thenewgozoku wrote: At the old making orks competitive post we used to have a nice colour coded summary on the first page with unit ranking and a small description. Can we do it here somehow?
I currently don't have the time, but if someone makes one that is not heavily biased and actually reflects the content of this thread, I will add it to the first page.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oOSkyOo wrote: The first Ork list on BAO was on rank 11 overall. It had a loot of shooty units: 2x Mek Guns, Flash Gitz, 2x Tank Busta.
Spoiler:
Orks: Vanguard Detachment - 463 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Big Mek on Warbike
+ Kustom force field, Choppa -> 20 Pkt.
- - - > 101 Punkte
Gargantuan Squiggoth, 2x Twin Big Shoota, 2x Big Zappa
--- >414
What an odd list. I'd really love to hear the reasoning for choices like solo Snikort or character mek. Flash gits in a gargantuan squiggoth actually makes kind of sense.
for marines, as an example)
