Stormboyz spam with shooty stuff in a Garg Squiggoth. Makes sense, as it is very tanky and can fight in close combat even while the Tankbustas (I presume) inside are shooting stuff up. It kinda solves the problem of "How to bring tankbustas in an assault horde army"
-4x Units of Stormboyz, each Boss Nob w/ PK. He says it's a total ~115 Stormboyz.
-Weirdboy
-Big Mek on Bike (KFF)
-Big Mek (KFF)
-Thraka
-Gretchin
-Waagh! Banner Nob
-Gargantuan Squiggoth w/ 2x Big Zzapa
Rounds out to 1957 Points for me. Close enough. The Stormboyz are genius. He took Green Tide and made it over 2x faster. There's real potential for Turn 1 charges here. Flyers beware. Besides the KFF Big Mek I'm not sure who else rides in the Squiggoth. Maybe no one else. He says in the video that the Weirdboy is there to jump Thraka and/or Waagh! Banner Nob forward, so the faster Stormboyz benefit from their auras. Can't jump them Turn 1 if they're embarked on a Squiggoth. Thraka can't even ride on the Squiggoth, because it can't transport Mega Armor models.
So I'm very curious why he took the Squiggoth at all. It's T8 35 Wounds 4+/5++. With only 2x Big Zzappa & 2x Big Shoota it's not very shooty. Some of the nasty gunline lists can actually kill that thing in one turn... since it's the one and only target for the opponent's big guns! Most shooty lists should certainly kill it in two turns. So that thing isn't super likely to get into combat, which is where it shines most. Why give their big guns such validation? Why not bring more Stormboyz & a Painboy biker?
Perhaps the Squiggoth is a tool to increase likelihood of rolling first turn. If deployed with Gretchin, Waagh! Banner Nob, Big Mek and Weirdboy inside... the list becomes 7 deployments. Without such a transport, it's 11+ deployments. At BAO and other ITC events, first turn is decided via roll-off where the player who finished deploying first gains +1 to their roll. Or maybe the Squiggoth is a defense against enemy snipers. One guy at BAO was running 11x Vindicares! Can't snipe my characters (except Thraka) if they're embarked yo.
Or maybe he took it for the cool factor. The guy's last name is McCool, after all...
33% chance: 1-2 damage (33-66% minus normal damage)
17% chance: 3 damage
50% chance: 4-6 damage (33-100% plus damage)
I'll take a 67% chance for same, or up double, damage any day.
There is also a 33% chance of failing to kill whatever you try to kill, which multiplies with the 66% to miss in the first place. This means that you need one or more additional rokkits to kill any given target reliably, which in turn means that you need to field 3-4 models equipped with rokkits for each of those.
D6s shred vehicles; 3 damage rokkits don't even cleanly kill most vehicles - there's a lot of ~10 wound vehicles, which requires 4 rokkits, minimum (versus 2 missile minimum).
It also takes 4 rokkits maximum and 10 missiles maximum. That's the difference between one unit of tank bustas taking out a rhino every time and needing up to three to take one out sometimes.
I really loved the idea of mechanized orks' but they don't have any battle tanks, or any good vehicles really. Battle wagon is ok for a 200 point land raider, but it has no guns; so... trucks are pointless, too expensive and too easy to kill (especially compared to rhinos).
This isn't new though. There was never a configuration for the battlewagon which could match a predator, wave serpent or LRBT in shooting.
-4x Units of Stormboyz, each Boss Nob w/ PK. He says it's a total ~115 Stormboyz.
-Weirdboy
-Big Mek on Bike (KFF)
-Big Mek (KFF)
-Thraka
-Gretchin
-Waagh! Banner Nob
-Gargantuan Squiggoth w/ 2x Big Zzapa
Rounds out to 1957 Points for me. Close enough. The Stormboyz are genius. He took Green Tide and made it over 2x faster. There's real potential for Turn 1 charges here. Flyers beware. Besides the KFF Big Mek I'm not sure who else rides in the Squiggoth. Maybe no one else. He says in the video that the Weirdboy is there to jump Thraka and/or Waagh! Banner Nob forward, so the faster Stormboyz benefit from their auras. Can't jump them Turn 1 if they're embarked on a Squiggoth. Thraka can't even ride on the Squiggoth, because it can't transport Mega Armor models.
So I'm very curious why he took the Squiggoth at all. It's T8 35 Wounds 4+/5++. With only 2x Big Zzappa & 2x Big Shoota it's not very shooty. Some of the nasty gunline lists can actually kill that thing in one turn... since it's the one and only target for the opponent's big guns! Most shooty lists should certainly kill it in two turns. So that thing isn't super likely to get into combat, which is where it shines most. Why give their big guns such validation? Why not bring more Stormboyz & a Painboy biker?
Perhaps the Squiggoth is a tool to increase likelihood of rolling first turn. If deployed with Gretchin, Waagh! Banner Nob, Big Mek and Weirdboy inside... the list becomes 7 deployments. Without such a transport, it's 11+ deployments. At BAO and other ITC events, first turn is decided via roll-off where the player who finished deploying first gains +1 to their roll. Or maybe the Squiggoth is a defense against enemy snipers. One guy at BAO was running 11x Vindicares! Can't snipe my characters (except Thraka) if they're embarked yo.
Or maybe he took it for the cool factor. The guy's last name is McCool, after all...
the Garg squig is an msu destroyer. If it charges you make that huge model be within 2in of as many units as you can be deal d6 mortal wounds to each and every unit you can get near. That's brutal to msu lists and that's not even including its atks which are great. Gretchen are a screen to prevent combat w the squig if you don't want it. The big mek on bike protects the main horde of stormboys. I get the weirdboy and ghaz which is smart to add more atks to the stormboys. The waaagh banner just seems slow, but I guess it's there for turn 2 buffing. List would do well with zagstruk as well and better if warboss charge didn't kill stormboys.
33% chance: 1-2 damage (33-66% minus normal damage)
17% chance: 3 damage
50% chance: 4-6 damage (33-100% plus damage)
I'll take a 67% chance for same, or up double, damage any day.
There is also a 33% chance of failing to kill whatever you try to kill, which multiplies with the 66% to miss in the first place. This means that you need one or more additional rokkits to kill any given target reliably, which in turn means that you need to field 3-4 models equipped with rokkits for each of those.
D6s shred vehicles; 3 damage rokkits don't even cleanly kill most vehicles - there's a lot of ~10 wound vehicles, which requires 4 rokkits, minimum (versus 2 missile minimum).
It also takes 4 rokkits maximum and 10 missiles maximum. That's the difference between one unit of tank bustas taking out a rhino every time and needing up to three to take one out sometimes.
I understand what you are saying but reliability isnt Orky.
I think the weapons are back to front, Marine ML should do a fixed damage, they are production line weapons, Ork weapons should be random, is it a big rokkit, a small rokkit, did the mek pack more splodey bitz in it than the last rokkit etc etc.
Orks should be random, sometimes they fizzle, sometimes they go crazy good but until you roll the dice you should never know
The biggest issue comparing Tankbustas and Devestator Marines is that it doesn't take into account buffs nor does it take into account realistic options. For instance, you aren't going to have a unit of Tank Bustas foot sloggin, they are always in a wagon or Trukk so tack on another 85-160pts for the unit. Dev Marines on the other hand can camp in some Ruins or any kind of terrain really and receive a 2+ save, so they can realistically stay out like that. 5 Dev Marine with 4 launchers and a cherub is 170pts. For the same price you can take 5 Tank Bustas in a Trukk with a Big Shoota and a Wreckin Ball. Who do you think is more durable? who do you think is more damaging to the enemy?
I've had a game vs GK recently. Wanted to test mech orks, so here's a bit of info.
Ork list:
Spoiler:
Ghaz + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 3 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
Warboss with pk and shoota + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 4 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] + 5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] in a Trukk with bs 10 Shootaboyz [nob]
5 kommandoes [2 burnas, nob]
GK list:
Spoiler:
Draigo
Champ
4 Dreadknights - all with psilancers, swords and fists - one with added psycannon
3 strike squads with psilancers
Game:
Spoiler:
Draigo and 3 NDK went in deepstrike reserves, orks got 1-st turn, moved forward, but tried to stay out of 24 psilancer range to force heavy weapon penalties. Ork shooting did 1 wound to a Dreadknight (we forgot DK was now a vehicle, so no tankbusta re-rolls and 2+, 4+ armor saves were hot).
Grey knights moved forward, Draigo and 3 dreadknights arrived near Ghazzy's wagon. Draigo purged the wagon's soul for 3 mortal wounds. And together with all the smiting and shooting, they downed a wagon - i haven't passed a single 4+ and 5+ save i had there). However, they all failed the long 11+ charges.
In return, orks dealt 3 wounds to an allready wounded DK (who saved everything other than a rokkit), went forward and multi charged Draigo and dreadknights with Ghaz, Warboss, nobz, a squad of boyz, trukk and a wagon. Ghaz inflicted 6 damage to Draigo, who initiated a counter-attack strategem and chopped down a couple nobz and all the runts. Warbosse's squig ate Draigo's face, boss, nobz and a wagon finished off a wounded DK (wagon inflicted 3 wounds) and the other nobz together with boyz dealt 5 wounds to another dreadknight. 2 dreadknights piled in to Ghaz and weren't too lucky with their striking - only 1 wound went through which ended up to be 5 damage - leaving Ghaz with 3 wounds. Trukk consolidated to tie up the third DK which whiffed all it's 4 attacks.
Magic inflicted 5 mortal wounds to a wagon, shooting saw a squad and a half of choppaboyz and half the shootaboyz down. Champ charged a wagon and dealt 3 or 4 wounds to it, another DK charged a trukk and wrecked it in one go. Tied up DK struck Ghaz but 4++ saved the greenskin's mighty ass. Ghaz decided to go counter-offensive and chopped the wounded DK down saving himself. Wagon inflicted 2 wounds to a champ. Boss and nobz proceeded to wound DKs.
Orks moved, shot whatever they could but only a single rokkit went through dk's 4+ save. Nobz and boyz charged an untied dk and brought it down to 4 wounds. In return it killed a couple more boyz. Ghaz finished off another dk, wagon inflicted a couple more wounds to a champ.
Gk moved to the edge of the woods, the last dreadknight (4 wounds left) disengaged. Smites finished off a wagon - apparently you can still use psy powers after a disengage. Shooting killed remaining choppaboyz leaving a single nob, 2 nobz from nob squad - leaving 2 (this time my 4+ saves were hot) and...something else - don't remember now.
Champ charged Ghaz and all the strikers failed their charges and he had no CP left to re-roll. Champ striked Ghaz but a single wound that went through got saved with 4++ once again. In return Ghaz ripped the champ's face off and on the way down, champ jammed his sword into the ork Warlord's foot dealing 2 damage. Ghaz was left with 1 wound.
Orks rushed forward and went nuts with shooting - finished off a 4-wound DK with tankbustas, killed 4 strikers in one squad and even kommandoes that have finally arrived shot down a striker with a slugga. After charges and chopping only 1 striker was left. Boss piled on to him and the striker got killed off in GK's mellee phase.
Orks got a victory via wipeoput. However, it was extremely close and could have gone either way. Literally a single save was enough to change the outcome. I think that orks only won because they managed to kill Draigo early on. Re-rolls to hit were pretty significant and allowed to down a wagon in one turn. They'd be decisive in mellee with knights and would have helped striker's shooting tremendously. I think that orks wouldn't have won if GK played more defensively for a turn and counter-charged with all their strikers together with dread knights - and not just DK alone. Strikers deal a lot of damage - stormbolter and psilancer shooting is solid and their mellee is deadly vs multi-wound models.
Some thoughts:
- Ghaz is mvp once again. He's simply excellent - he deals a lot of damage, buffs the army and is quite durable for an ork. t6, w8 and 4++ is amazing to have. It's a good quiestion which warlord trait is preferable. I usually take +1 attack, however, i'd prefer 6+++ here. I'm pretty positive Ghaz is a good pick for any ork list.
- Transports are not as durable as you'd want them to be, however, they're passable and are definitely required for nobz and tankbustas. With the amount of multi-damage weapons and mortal wounds from magic, even a t8 battlewagon with 16 wounds goes down in 1-2 turns without much chances. I'm still not sure what's better - a trukk or a wagon. A wagon is ok in mellee at least. But a trukk is probably a bit more durable point-for point.
- Nobz themselves are great. However, they need ammo runts which eat up transport space. The more ammo runts you manage to fit in - the better. So, 6 nobz and 6 ammo runts is a solid unit to fit inside a trukk. 4+ armor is good now. Nobz would have been a top tier unit if transports were cheaper.
- Small units of choppaboyz are not amazing. I think trukkboyz would perform below average. Boyz for wagons...not sure about that. They sure help with eating up explosions, overwatch and in some cases smites, but they just die so easilly and don't pack enough punch. If it was a larger point game, i'd probably just get more nobz with ammo runts and leave boyz with shootas to camp on objectives. We still need a lot of CP, so at least 3 squads would be needed. This min boy squads would also in a way take big gun'z space making those obsolete - as currently big gunz are so mediocre at shooting, it's basically an afterthought and they're used just to camp on objectives.
- Tankbustas underperformed but that's mostly due to a lot of lucky 4+ armor saves. I'm still not sure about them - needs further playtesting.
- Mech orks overall feel underwhelming. we really lack bodies due to very expensive transports. If you still like mech as an alternative to hordes, try focusing on nobz and Ghaz. They're what's making the list function somewhat. However, durability is a huge issue, so minimise your drops to go first - it can help vs shooty armies. Nobz are noticeably more durable than they used to be with all the 4+ saves and ammo runts, however, don't overestimate them.
thenewgozoku wrote: I realy like flashgits in this edition. Best way to use them?
I almost made a similar post yesterday. I've wanted an excuse to buy that awesome kit but Flash Gitz always come up as terrible. 5 Flash Gitz move and shoot MEQ about as good as 20 Shoota boyz while costing almost the same, and are superior when stationary (This all discounting the 1 in 6 chance you roll that six and shoot anything nearby again). I would have any dedicated group of them standing near a KFF, they might not be bad to have near a frontline if you feel you have an ork army that might like to fall back, and let Flash Gitz shoot. Strength 5 is great vs T4 and doesn't falloff at T8. Still a Nob in CC, without Armor anyways.
Also, I think I'd like to hear more about grotz as more then a troop tax. Two squads of 30 with the Squig Runtherder, a Lash Runtherder, and a Painboy standing between them seems like a small mess. I'd almost consider a Banner Nob except the Grotz would always be wounding on 6 in CC. Can strategic application of movement trays make this unit not soo bad?
Also, I think I'd like to hear more about grotz as more then a troop tax. Two squads of 30 with the Squig Runtherder, a Lash Runtherder, and a Painboy standing between them seems like a small mess. I'd almost consider a Banner Nob except the Grotz would always be wounding on 6 in CC. Can strategic application of movement trays make this unit not soo bad?
60 grots + 2x herder + painboy is 300 points.
For the same amount of points you could get 50 shootaboyz. It doesn't matter how strategic you apply your movement tray. Gretchins suck. You know, with warpath, grot lash, ghaz, banner nob and size, gretchins can dish out 3 attacks hitting on 2+. And they still suck.
33% chance: 1-2 damage (33-66% minus normal damage)
17% chance: 3 damage
50% chance: 4-6 damage (33-100% plus damage)
I'll take a 67% chance for same, or up double, damage any day.
There is also a 33% chance of failing to kill whatever you try to kill, which multiplies with the 66% to miss in the first place. This means that you need one or more additional rokkits to kill any given target reliably, which in turn means that you need to field 3-4 models equipped with rokkits for each of those.
D6s shred vehicles; 3 damage rokkits don't even cleanly kill most vehicles - there's a lot of ~10 wound vehicles, which requires 4 rokkits, minimum (versus 2 missile minimum).
It also takes 4 rokkits maximum and 10 missiles maximum. That's the difference between one unit of tank bustas taking out a rhino every time and needing up to three to take one out sometimes.
I understand what you are saying but reliability isnt Orky.
I think the weapons are back to front, Marine ML should do a fixed damage, they are production line weapons, Ork weapons should be random, is it a big rokkit, a small rokkit, did the mek pack more splodey bitz in it than the last rokkit etc etc.
Orks should be random, sometimes they fizzle, sometimes they go crazy good but until you roll the dice you should never know
The issue with that is the fact that Ork shooting based on BS is already so random, if we also had random damage it would suck, I get the fluffiness, but from a balance standpoint it would be bad to hit with your 1 out of 3 rokkits and then roll a 1 for damage.
Also, I think I'd like to hear more about grotz as more then a troop tax. Two squads of 30 with the Squig Runtherder, a Lash Runtherder, and a Painboy standing between them seems like a small mess. I'd almost consider a Banner Nob except the Grotz would always be wounding on 6 in CC. Can strategic application of movement trays make this unit not soo bad?
60 grots + 2x herder + painboy is 300 points.
For the same amount of points you could get 50 shootaboyz. It doesn't matter how strategic you apply your movement tray. Gretchins suck. You know, with warpath, grot lash, ghaz, banner nob and size, gretchins can dish out 3 attacks hitting on 2+. And they still suck.
To be good gretchin needed access to better guns. They have a 4+ to shoot, but can only have 12" range S3 single shot guns. If they had a "shoota" type option with longer range, or could take heavy weapons (like big guns) they could be decent. But as is they are not good for anything other than chaff, and orks don't really need chaff.
gungo wrote: the Garg squig is an msu destroyer. If it charges you make that huge model be within 2in of as many units as you can be deal d6 mortal wounds to each and every unit you can get near. That's brutal to msu lists and that's not even including its atks which are great. Gretchen are a screen to prevent combat w the squig if you don't want it. The big mek on bike protects the main horde of stormboys. I get the weirdboy and ghaz which is smart to add more atks to the stormboys. The waaagh banner just seems slow, but I guess it's there for turn 2 buffing. List would do well with zagstruk as well and better if warboss charge didn't kill stormboys.
Yeah, I acknowledged the Garg squiggoth shines in combat. But against shooty lists, against your average Guilliman gunline, etc. it shouldn't survive more than two battle rounds and thus won't make it into combat... especially if it's literally the only model in your army worth shooting big guns and lascannons at (such is the case w/ McCool's list). So I wondered if he didn't value it for the alternative reasons I listed previously.
I'm not sure if Zagstruk belongs, and I can surmise reasons why he didn't field him. First and most significant, he's an extra deployment and therefore jeopardizes first turn (jump packs can't embark on Squiggoth). With 4x units of 25+ Stormboyz each, Morale shouldn't be an issue and thus Zagstruk's special rule becomes slightly redundant (until later stages of the game). 88 Points is cheap, but for that price you could take 11 extra Stormboyz. I think 33x S4 attacks outweighs Zagstruk's 5x S6 & 2x Vulcha Klaw attacks.
BaconCatBug wrote: So it's looking like pure Stormboyz over combined Boyz+Stormboyz is the way to go?
Not necesserily. I find boy'z speed good enough - even for footsloggas. They're usually in combat turn 2. They're still more durable point-for point than stormboyz. You can have shootas in there. And greentide attack bonus is great. Also, it's harder to keep Ghaz up with stormboyz. But overall, yeah. Stormboyz are quite good as they're choppaboyz that are 2 times faster.
BaconCatBug wrote: So it's looking like pure Stormboyz over combined Boyz+Stormboyz is the way to go?
Yeah it appears so. The strength of green tide is in hitting all at once. With hybrid Boyz/Stormboyz, your Stormboyz are jumping ahead of the main horde and losing KFF/FNP, unless you also want to bring the Biker Big Mek and Biker Painboy forward, in which case your Boyz are losing those buffs.
And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
You're right. They're not twice as fast. They're more than twice as fast. 12 is more than double 5. And those 12" can ignore any intervening battlefield terrain or models.
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
And the stormboyz can't have 12+D6 because...
Honestly it's negligible when yoive got 90 Stormboyz running at you, not including Da Jump and Kommandos.
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
This is only true if you advance and charge in the same turn, so on a non-charge turn they are more than twice as fast, on a charge turn they are on average 33% faster if you don't want to risk the model losses.
thenewgozoku wrote: I realy like flashgits in this edition. Best way to use them?
On your shelf. Great looking model but GW yet again made them useless in every way possible. short ranged gunz teamed with no armor and far to much points investment = useless. Sure you can camp them in a Transport but that just means you are investing more points into a mobile bunker that isn't really that scary in the first place. Secondly, if the vehicle moves your Gitz inside suffer -1 to hit so they are still BS2. It would have been so simple for them to give Badruk's special rule the ability to function inside the vehicle AND to allow the Mobile Fortress rule to apply to passengers and give Orkz a decent shooting option, but nope, orkz can't have nice things
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
You're right. They're not twice as fast. They're more than twice as fast. 12 is more than double 5. And those 12" can ignore any intervening battlefield terrain or models.
They are not more than twice as fast. Boyz will on average move 8.5" in the movement phase. Stormboyz will very rarely move more than twice that.
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
And the stormboyz can't have 12+D6 because...
They can. But then you incur mortal wounds in the charge phase, which might be acceptable, but still a significant downside.
thenewgozoku wrote: I realy like flashgits in this edition. Best way to use them?
On your shelf. Great looking model but GW yet again made them useless in every way possible. short ranged gunz teamed with no armor and far to much points investment = useless. Sure you can camp them in a Transport but that just means you are investing more points into a mobile bunker that isn't really that scary in the first place. Secondly, if the vehicle moves your Gitz inside suffer -1 to hit so they are still BS2. It would have been so simple for them to give Badruk's special rule the ability to function inside the vehicle AND to allow the Mobile Fortress rule to apply to passengers and give Orkz a decent shooting option, but nope, orkz can't have nice things
I think that giving them 4+ armor(or at least 5+) and an assault shooting profile would have been the best option. But to be fair, most two-wound infantry is overpriced in 8th edition. Including primaries marines and bikes. There just are too many multidamage weapon profiles out there.
To many multi wound weapons that can be easily spammed for cheap and which cost less (usually) then the price of a Flashgit.
I refuse to believe GW play tested the Ork index and thought "Yeah this is good enough". Anyone with any experience in the Ork faction could see that almost everything was useless. I was really hoping to get excited for buggies/skorchas/trakkz but again they are trash :( I am still convinced the deff kopta is salvageable with a significant price drop but beyond that its pretty much a handful of buff characters, boyz and stormboyz with everything else being sub optimal choices.
thenewgozoku wrote: I realy like flashgits in this edition. Best way to use them?
I almost made a similar post yesterday. I've wanted an excuse to buy that awesome kit but Flash Gitz always come up as terrible. 5 Flash Gitz move and shoot MEQ about as good as 20 Shoota boyz while costing almost the same, and are superior when stationary (This all discounting the 1 in 6 chance you roll that six and shoot anything nearby again). I would have any dedicated group of them standing near a KFF, they might not be bad to have near a frontline if you feel you have an ork army that might like to fall back, and let Flash Gitz shoot. Strength 5 is great vs T4 and doesn't falloff at T8. Still a Nob in CC, without Armor anyways.
How about putting them into a Big Trakk with a Kannon. 6 Flash Gitz with kannon and big shootas inside 15 wounds m 14' beast sounds pretty good on paper. They count as being stationary to boot.
Ran a squad of 9 Biker Nobs with Kombi Skorcha over the weekend.
Use Da Jump boyz to lock up the bigger threats to them, ran them to the weaker flank abusing LOS, and the shooting they put out was insane. Just zipped across the whole line.
Basically Unchargable unless you want to die or be horribly wounded on the way in.
They removed a unit a turn and got a few 20" moves with advance and still skorched.
Unit was expensive as hell, but it killed like everything.
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
And the stormboyz can't have 12+D6 because...
They can. But then you incur mortal wounds in the charge phase, which might be acceptable, but still a significant downside..
54 pts on average to cripple part of an army? Yeah...
A significant downside is footslogging 5". Unless you also advance in which case it's a maximum of 11" AND requires a Warboss nearby to actually charge who needs to be advancing as far as the Boyz themselves. Stormboyz can casually move 12" in any direction they like without losing casualties anyway - and can still charge after moving 12".
I love my footsloggers - but Stormboyz are strictly better except in one department - filling up a Battalion Detachment.
Bigdoza wrote: Ran a squad of 9 Biker Nobs with Kombi Skorcha over the weekend.
Use Da Jump boyz to lock up the bigger threats to them, ran them to the weaker flank abusing LOS, and the shooting they put out was insane. Just zipped across the whole line.
Basically Unchargable unless you want to die or be horribly wounded on the way in.
They removed a unit a turn and got a few 20" moves with advance and still skorched.
Unit was expensive as hell, but it killed like everything.
I did the same in our local escalation League (750 pts)
even three of them shredded!
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 120pts]: Kombi-Skorcha, Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy [4 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump
+ Troops +
Boyz [13 PL, 242pts] . Boss Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [13 PL, 242pts] . Boss Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Boyz [13 PL, 242pts] . Boss Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Nobz on Bike [28 PL, 646pts] . Boss Nob on Bike: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
. Nob: Big Choppa, Kombi-Skorcha
koooaei wrote: I've had a game vs GK recently. Wanted to test mech orks, so here's a bit of info.
Ork list:
Spoiler:
Ghaz + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 3 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
Warboss with pk and shoota + 10 Choppaboyz [bc nob] + 5 Nobz [2 stabbas, 3 bc, 4 runts] in and enclosed Battlewagon with deffrolla
5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] + 5 Tankbustas [nob, squig] in a Trukk with bs 10 Shootaboyz [nob]
5 kommandoes [2 burnas, nob]
GK list:
Spoiler:
Draigo
Champ
4 Dreadknights - all with psilancers, swords and fists - one with added psycannon
3 strike squads with psilancers
Game:
Spoiler:
Draigo and 3 NDK went in deepstrike reserves, orks got 1-st turn, moved forward, but tried to stay out of 24 psilancer range to force heavy weapon penalties. Ork shooting did 1 wound to a Dreadknight (we forgot DK was now a vehicle, so no tankbusta re-rolls and 2+, 4+ armor saves were hot).
Grey knights moved forward, Draigo and 3 dreadknights arrived near Ghazzy's wagon. Draigo purged the wagon's soul for 3 mortal wounds. And together with all the smiting and shooting, they downed a wagon - i haven't passed a single 4+ and 5+ save i had there). However, they all failed the long 11+ charges.
In return, orks dealt 3 wounds to an allready wounded DK (who saved everything other than a rokkit), went forward and multi charged Draigo and dreadknights with Ghaz, Warboss, nobz, a squad of boyz, trukk and a wagon. Ghaz inflicted 6 damage to Draigo, who initiated a counter-attack strategem and chopped down a couple nobz and all the runts. Warbosse's squig ate Draigo's face, boss, nobz and a wagon finished off a wounded DK (wagon inflicted 3 wounds) and the other nobz together with boyz dealt 5 wounds to another dreadknight. 2 dreadknights piled in to Ghaz and weren't too lucky with their striking - only 1 wound went through which ended up to be 5 damage - leaving Ghaz with 3 wounds. Trukk consolidated to tie up the third DK which whiffed all it's 4 attacks.
Magic inflicted 5 mortal wounds to a wagon, shooting saw a squad and a half of choppaboyz and half the shootaboyz down. Champ charged a wagon and dealt 3 or 4 wounds to it, another DK charged a trukk and wrecked it in one go. Tied up DK struck Ghaz but 4++ saved the greenskin's mighty ass. Ghaz decided to go counter-offensive and chopped the wounded DK down saving himself. Wagon inflicted 2 wounds to a champ. Boss and nobz proceeded to wound DKs.
Orks moved, shot whatever they could but only a single rokkit went through dk's 4+ save. Nobz and boyz charged an untied dk and brought it down to 4 wounds. In return it killed a couple more boyz. Ghaz finished off another dk, wagon inflicted a couple more wounds to a champ.
Gk moved to the edge of the woods, the last dreadknight (4 wounds left) disengaged. Smites finished off a wagon - apparently you can still use psy powers after a disengage. Shooting killed remaining choppaboyz leaving a single nob, 2 nobz from nob squad - leaving 2 (this time my 4+ saves were hot) and...something else - don't remember now.
Champ charged Ghaz and all the strikers failed their charges and he had no CP left to re-roll. Champ striked Ghaz but a single wound that went through got saved with 4++ once again. In return Ghaz ripped the champ's face off and on the way down, champ jammed his sword into the ork Warlord's foot dealing 2 damage. Ghaz was left with 1 wound.
Orks rushed forward and went nuts with shooting - finished off a 4-wound DK with tankbustas, killed 4 strikers in one squad and even kommandoes that have finally arrived shot down a striker with a slugga. After charges and chopping only 1 striker was left. Boss piled on to him and the striker got killed off in GK's mellee phase.
Orks got a victory via wipeoput. However, it was extremely close and could have gone either way. Literally a single save was enough to change the outcome. I think that orks only won because they managed to kill Draigo early on. Re-rolls to hit were pretty significant and allowed to down a wagon in one turn. They'd be decisive in mellee with knights and would have helped striker's shooting tremendously. I think that orks wouldn't have won if GK played more defensively for a turn and counter-charged with all their strikers together with dread knights - and not just DK alone. Strikers deal a lot of damage - stormbolter and psilancer shooting is solid and their mellee is deadly vs multi-wound models.
Some thoughts:
- Ghaz is mvp once again. He's simply excellent - he deals a lot of damage, buffs the army and is quite durable for an ork. t6, w8 and 4++ is amazing to have. It's a good quiestion which warlord trate is preferable. I usually take +1 attack, however, i'd prefer 6+++ here. I'm pretty positive Ghaz is a good pick for any ork list.
- Transports are not as durable as you'd want them to be, however, they're passable and are definitely required for nobz and tankbustas. With the amount of multi-damage weapons and mortal wounds from magic, even a t8 battlewagon with 16 wounds goes down in 1-2 turns without much chances. I'm still not sure what's better - a trukk or a wagon. A wagon is ok in mellee at least. But a trukk is probably a bit more durable point-for point.
- Nobz themselves are great. However, they need ammo runts which eat up transport space. The more ammo runts you manage to fit in - the better. So, 6 nobz and 6 ammo runts is a solid unit to fit inside a trukk. 4+ armor is good now. Nobz would have been a top tier unit if transports were cheaper.
- Small units of choppaboyz are not amazing. I think trukkboyz would perform below average. Boyz for wagons...not sure about that. They sure help with eating up explosions, overwatch and in some cases smites, but they just die so easilly and don't pack enough punch. If it was a larger point game, i'd probably just get more nobz with ammo runts and leave boyz with shootas to camp on objectives. We still need a lot of CP, so at least 3 squads would be needed. This min boy squads would also in a way take big gun'z space making those obsolete - as currently big gunz are so mediocre at shooting, it's basically an afterthought and they're used just to camp on objectives.
- Tankbustas underperformed but that's mostly due to a lot of lucky 4+ armor saves. I'm still not sure about them - needs further playtesting.
- Mech orks overall feel underwhelming. we really lack bodies due to very expensive transports. If you still like mech as an alternative to hordes, try focusing on nobz and Ghaz. They're what's making the list function somewhat. However, durability is a huge issue, so minimise your drops to go first - it can help vs shooty armies. Nobz are noticeably more durable than they used to be with all the 4+ saves and ammo runts, however, don't overestimate them.
I agree I think a lot of mediocre ork units would be more viable if trukks and wagons were cheaper (heck all ork vehicles would be more viable if cheaper), but lootas and flashgits really hurt without a platform that allows them to shoot without the moving penalty. 6+ to hit is just unusable especially considering -1 to hit or higher modifiers are fairly common and completely prevent shooting. I think flashgits need 4+ saves again (and badrukk should reroll wounds not hits) and battlewagons need to allow units embarked to shoot without penalty when moving. Im glad our codex is not one of the first to be done because I think GW really needs to observe the feedback of the multiple tourney and playtesting results to see that many playtesters were completely off on how strong orks were going to be this edition. There is really only a handful of units and specific lists that make orks viable competitively this edition. I think the +1 atk is good if you have maddoc/painboy by ghaz OR if you plan to da jump and charge with ghaz first turn. However if you plan on ghaz being a major target to soak enemy fire and there isn't a painboy by him the 6+ fnp is better. zhardsnark is always better with the +1 atk because his threat range is SO large he is almost always charging first and extra atks just give you more chances for mortal wounds as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote: And Stormboyz are not twice as fast as Boyz. Stormboyz has 12" inch movement unless you want to delete a sixth of your troops, regular Boyz has 5+D6 movement. The biggest advantage to stormboyz is that you can move over the screen and assault his rear. Apparently you can also assault directly over enemy models as mentioned earlier.
to be fair you CAN move and advance or move and charge without losing stormboys.
You only lose storm boys when you move, advance and charge. which is really what you want to do for a turn 1 charge if you opponent deploys on the deployment zone line but if you opponent is deploying defensively so that you wouldn't get a turn 1 charge regardless you can choose to move and advance.
I'm also not sure how you think a move and advance of a MAXIMUM 11in is faster than 12in. its not and sadly the average is 8.5 NOT 11. stormboys are always faster and have a much easier time of jumping and hiding within ruins or line of sight blocking terrain as they ignore interveneing terrain. Maybe its because I tend to play vs many shooty lists such as guard, but I regularly move and advance my stormboys because the guard player tends to deploy further back from his deployment line and thus prevents any first turn charge from stormboys regardless. So I move and then adavance into ruins so that I get at least some type of save and then the next turn I charge or move and charge (or if I really need move and advance and charge, which is rare). My stormboys do ok. Sadly all I have is 20 stormboys and zagstrukk so the unit doesn't really survive that long vs shooty lists. The next charge into a line of guards/conscripts I usually take a beating from overwatch. I can get about 1 charge off and eliminate 1 guard unit before my stormboys are whittled down to the nob, zag and if I am lucky 1-2 stormboys but I can see how spamming them works better. I'm just unwilling to buy 20 more boxes of stormboys =P
They are not more than twice as fast. Boyz will on average move 8.5" in the movement phase. Stormboyz will very rarely move more than twice that.
On paper I see your logic -- both units advancing the Stormboyz's 15.5" ain't double 8.5". In practice, ignoring terrain/models and the ability to advance & charge without Ghaz's presence often translates to more than double the speed. Green Tide w/ Boyz can easily be hampered by one unit's bad advance roll, thereby slowing all the models behind it. I see why McCool paid +2 points per model for that advantage.
Not necesserily. I find boy'z speed good enough - even for footsloggas. They're usually in combat turn 2. They're still more durable point-for point than stormboyz. You can have shootas in there. And greentide attack bonus is great. Also, it's harder to keep Ghaz up with stormboyz. But overall, yeah. Stormboyz are quite good as they're choppaboyz that are 2 times faster.
Eh I'd say you're playing against some friendly opponents, or getting lucky on Deployment Maps, if they're letting a tide of boyz charge on turn 2 (unless they're assault armies too -- in which case you've already won!). All the shooty/gunline lists I've played against can often deploy or move in such a way as to delay my tide until a Turn 3 charge. Probably not Stormboyz though -- their Turn 2 charge should be guaranteed. I'll have to test myself though!
In my tourny list I've run 2 units of 25 stormboyz, zaggy(much more worth it when he can provide ld benefits to two squads) along with 90 boyz, and characters and KMKs. The Stormboyz are always into something by turn two, and oftern turn one if they moved anything forward when they usually go first. They are much faster than footsloggers due to their ability to ignore terrain and jump over models of both forces. Also even though it hurts to lose a couple boyz to advance and charge its totally worth it when you need it. If you skip a charge because you wanted to save 3-4 stormboyz you're not going to feel great when your opponent kills 15 with shooting the next turn.
Eh I'd say you're playing against some friendly opponents, or getting lucky on Deployment Maps, if they're letting a tide of boyz charge on turn 2 (unless they're assault armies too -- in which case you've already won!). All the shooty/gunline lists I've played against can often deploy or move in such a way as to delay my tide until a Turn 3 charge. Probably not Stormboyz though -- their Turn 2 charge should be guaranteed. I'll have to test myself though!
A static gunline will lose when playing Maelstrom. And when doing so, I think turn 2 charges with a green tide list is the norm. But of course you cannot assault behind their screen as you can with stormboyz.
Sure, Maelstrom favors lists with some mobility. But Guilliman gunline (a very popular list these days) doesn't need to worry about silly objectives when it can just table you!
Novelist47 wrote: How about putting them into a Big Trakk with a Kannon. 6 Flash Gitz with kannon and big shootas inside 15 wounds m 14' beast sounds pretty good on paper. They count as being stationary to boot.
Unfortunately GW ruled that the passengers still count as having moved (at least for the Battlewagon they do, I assume it's the same for the Big Trakk).
Did they say whether Ammo Runts still provide re-rolls when a unit fires out of an open-topped transport?
Alright ladz, after watching my buddies tournament last week I have my own coming up. 2,000pt ITC rules. I am thinking about running a Foot sloggin list with 30 boyz getting "Da Jump" every turn and running 2 squads of 20 Storm Boyz. as well as spamming Deff Koptas and Kommandos to really tie down my opponents back field and allow me to scoot around with some fast units and capture objectives. So here is my 2,000pt List.
FAST ATTACK: 674pts
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob)
So I will very clearly be going 2nd most of the time I intend to force my opponent to make all his real drops first, As in actually on the table, by using my units to stay in reserve (Kommandos, Koptas) I am reasonably sure this will allow me to see how my opponent is set up. After that I will deploy my Boyz, Ghaz, Mad Dok, Weirdboyz and KFF Big Mek in a giant blob furthest from his dakka units, I will then deploy the Stormboyz on whichever flank looks like they have the best access to cover and won't run into things they can't deal with.
After his 1st turn in which he will inevitably turtle up OR possibly advance (here is hoping) I will then decide whether to deploy ALL my reserves on the table or to save them for later in the game. If they deploy they will either be going to grab an objective OR to be spammed into my enemies backlines to trap his units. None of my units are particularly good, strong or able to do much, but their upside is there will be 40 Kommandos in 8 Units and 4 Deff Kopta Units, this means my opponent won't be able to dakka a large target and will be forced to waste a lot of attention on units that don't matter for fear that they will survive. I played a game where my opponent used 2 lascanons to finish off a Deff Kopta only for it to only receive 1 damage he was rather angry.
Any tweaks you guys think I should make? In addition to all the above mentioned units I also have access to:
40 Grots
6 Meganobz
10 Tankbustas
12 Kanz
2 Dreadz
1 Morkanaut
30 Lootas
Dakkajet
2 More Koptas
5 More stormboyz
a plethora of Nobz
3 Trukkz
3 Wagonz
6 Mek Gunz (All geared as KMKs)
a few more boyz
30+ Warbikes.
I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Mathhammer time!
Just to stack things in favor of a bare bones Nob, let's say you're fighting against T4 3+ Save
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 1.78 Wounds --> 0.59 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.59 Damage --> 0.59/6 = 0.0983 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 1.33 Wounds --> 0.665 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.33 Damage --> 1.33/15 = 0.08867 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1.25 Wounds --> 1.04 Unsaved Wounds --> 2.08 Damage --> 2.08/31 = 0.0671 Damage Per Point
Power Klaw deals highest damage output, Choppa deals highest Damage Per Point ratio, and Big Choppa is in the middle. These averages were calculated against T4. But against toughness 5+ targets, you'll find the Big Choppa wins out in Damage Per Point against the Choppa.
TLDR Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa is the most points efficient against T5+ multi-wound targets. Against T4 (and under) single-wound targets, the bare Nob wins.
Just to stack things in favor of a bare bones Nob, let's say you're fighting against T4 3+ Save
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 1.78 Wounds --> 0.59 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.59 Damage --> 0.59/6 = 0.0983 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 1.33 Wounds --> 0.665 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.33 Damage --> 1.33/15 = 0.08867 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1.25 Wounds --> 1.04 Unsaved Wounds --> 2.08 Damage --> 2.08/31 = 0.0671 Damage Per Point
Power Klaw deals highest damage output, Choppa deals highest Damage Per Point ratio, and Big Choppa is in the middle. These averages were calculated against T4. But against toughness 5+ targets, you'll find the Big Choppa wins out in Damage Per Point against the Choppa.
TLDR Big Choppa is usually the most points efficient.
Except the Choppa is free And If I take a big choppa I have to then subtract 2 boyz from my units in order to pay for those weapons. And Big Choppas are only more effective vs T5-7 where I don't need help. T8 they suck as bad as a regular choppa. So, since I don't need help vs T5-7 (Drown them in S4 choppa attacks from the boyz) I don't see the point
Don't get me wrong its a close call, but my entire list focuses on spamming model counts in MSU style so the more models i can field the better.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Bear in mind that the Big Choppas has Damage 2 which can help get that extra wound off to being vehicles down their table.
Except the Choppa is free And If I take a big choppa I have to then subtract 2 boyz from my units in order to pay for those weapons. And Big Choppas are only more effective vs T5-7 where I don't need help. T8 they suck as bad as a regular choppa. So, since I don't need help vs T5-7 (Drown them in S4 choppa attacks from the boyz) I don't see the point
Don't get me wrong its a close call, but my entire list focuses on spamming model counts in MSU style so the more models i can field the better.
Mathhammer Time!
Against T8 3+
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.3/6 = 0.05 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wounds --> 0.335 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.67 Damage --> 0.67/15 = 0.0447 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.83 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.66 Damage --> 1.66/31 = 0.0535 Damage Per Point
So yeah, it seems the right decision if there's literally no other wargear that you could drop to pay for a Big Choppa or PK. But let me ask you this: when's the last time you charged a 20+ unit of Boyz and got them ALL within 1" to fight? Often some Boyz will get left out due to mitigating terrain and sheer space limitation. You'll want that Nob to output more damage, even at a slight DPP reduction.
Also you'll find +1 Attack bonuses from Ghaz/Warpath benefits the Big Choppa/PK more than the Choppa in terms of Damage & DPP.
Your list is on the right track, but could be more TAC. As it stands, the more T8 models your opponent brings the worse-off you'll do -- because all you've brought to best deal with them is Ghaz and Grotsnik. S4 Boyz wounding on 6's lose so much effectiveness.
I plan to deal with T8 vehicles and monsters the same way I have been dealing with them. tie them up in CC and promptly ignore them. Land Raiders and such can kill squads in the shooting phase by themselves, but in CC? They are trash. My list is designed to attack everything en-mass from multiple directions so I should be able to assault everything easily enough. My biggest weakness is still going to be those stupid flyers but with the new rules at least nobody is going to be spamming 4+ of them.
pismakron wrote: I think your list looks to be really strong, with a powerful betastrike. You will hurt if he brings lots of T8, but stormboyz and koptas can tie up Leman Russes behind his screen even if they don't do any damage. How many shootas do you bring? Big Choppas on every nob?
Everything is bare bones. I personally don't feel a Big choppa is worth 9pts in this edition. You get 3 attacks with a Nob with Big Choppa at S7 or 4 with Choppa at S5 Against a vehicle the difference is negligible (1 wound with -1 AP vs 1 wound with 0 AP). I would rather drown my opponent in models and dice.
Bear in mind that the Big Choppas has Damage 2 which can help get that extra wound off to being vehicles down their table.
Also bear in mind the reason you take BC or klaws is the same reason we took them in 7th edition but even moreso in 8th since we choose which model is destroyed out of the unit.
The fact is a BC or klaw is usually the last wpn standing in a unit making it a lot better for the points invested then a basic choppa that is randomly discarded. That boost in efficeiny for the small price you pay is extremely durable and lasts for a long time.
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
I take offense to this! What else are we here to do but theory hammer? Can't play games on a DakkaDakka forum thread. Plus my math was agreeing with you!
You mentioned that single-wound models favor the bare nob, but not by how much.
You don't get to multiply damage x 2 in those cases, so in your first example of T4 3+, your 0.08867 Damage Per Point for BC is actually an anemic 0.04434, much worse than the choppa. It only excels slightly with high T multi-wound models, so I don't see any reason to take it.
If people are actually playing games instead of theory hammering they would notice that generally the BC nob carries a lot of weight and does considerably more damage then just having 1.5 more boys.
I take offense to this! What else are we here to do but theory hammer? Can't play games on a DakkaDakka forum thread. Plus my math was agreeing with you!
We can share experience about how we play and what we face. Synergies we like to try or unexpected hard counters we may face and how to beat them. Much more interesting and useful than mathammer, which is only pure numbers and doesn't consider at all the human factor.
JimOnMars wrote: You mentioned that single-wound models favor the bare nob, but not by how much.
You don't get to multiply damage x 2 in those cases, so in your first example of T4 3+, your 0.08867 Damage Per Point for BC is actually an anemic 0.04434, much worse than the choppa. It only excels slightly with high T multi-wound models, so I don't see any reason to take it.
Very true. I'm sorry for not including the extra calculations to take that into account, but I still disagree with your assessment. When you say "High T multi-wound" it's a bit redundant, as the majority of T5+ units in the game are multi-wound in nature, whilst the majority of T3-4 units are single-wound.
So here's the complete breakdown on BC vs. Choppa, assuming T3-4 models are single-wound and T5+ models are multi-wound.
1) The BC is lower DPP at T3 and T4... higher DPP at T5 through T8
2) The BC ALWAYS deals more damage at every toughness level, even against single-wound targets. This means your 9 points are never going to complete waste.
These facts alone should be enough to favor the BC. It wins at more toughness levels.
The BC becomes even more useful when you consider the context of a footslogging Boyz unit. You're not exactly able to cherry-pick the kinds of units you want to charge. Most games you're running up the table charging the first thing that's in range... it could be a Land Raider or a blob of Conscripts. Either way you're charging it. We can agree the 29x Boyz are well-suited towards fighting against T3-4 single-wound. So giving the Boyz a BC gives them more versatility, acknowledging that this unit is meant to charge anything and kill anything.
We can share experience about how we play and what we face. Synergies we like to try or unexpected hard counters we may face and how to beat them. Much more interesting and useful than mathammer, which is only pure numbers and doesn't consider at all the human factor.
It's a dice game. A greater understanding of the probabilities leads to a greater understanding of the game. We're all here to Waaagh! and make Orks competitive, right? Based on what I've written above I hope you can discern that I'm also taking into account "the human factor." But numbers help too, particularly in list-building.
Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
JimOnMars wrote: Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
Err.. what? I used the post cost of a Nob w/ Choppa @ 6pts... Nob w/ BC @ 15pts. What's wrong about that?
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
Err.. what? I used the post cost of a Nob w/ Choppa @ 6pts... Nob w/ BC @ 15pts. What's wrong about that?
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
I'm not really following that logic and, respectfully, I would point your attention to various tournament players taking green tide/horde lists with similar model counts as yours who all give their nobs BCs or PKs.
Look, you posted your list in a tactica thread. You asked for advice on tweaking it. We've freely given it to you. Clearly you don't agree with the advice, and there's no convincing you otherwise. So why don't we leave it at that?
Because it implies you need to spend 6pts to get that Nob w/Choppa when in reality you have already spent it acquiring the boy. So you are comparing a FREE Upgrade to a 9pt upgrade. So when it comes to lists based on quantity over quality the choice is simple.
I'm not really following that logic and, respectfully, I would point your attention to various tournament players taking green tide/horde lists with similar model counts as yours who all give their nobs BCs or PKs.
Look, you posted your list in a tactica thread. You asked for advice on tweaking it. We've freely given it to you. Clearly you don't agree with the advice, and there's no convincing you otherwise. So why don't we leave it at that?
I was under the impression we were debating the merits of BC over a free Nob with Choppa because my list had that in it. Nowhere in the last page has anyone said "I like the list but you should take big choppas" What I have seen was someone ask if I was running any BCs or Shootas and I said no.
And saying "Bring BCs" is advice sure, but what would I take out to replace it? Most everything is running barebones and can't lose anymore points except the Mobz of Boyz who I want at 30 to make it so they have to lose 10 models before they lose their +1 attack buff. Are you maybe suggesting I take 1 less Deff Kopta and equip some of my nobz with Big Choppas? atm in that list I have 3 Nobz with Boyz, 8 Nobz with Kommandos and 2 more with Stormboyz for a grand total of 13 Nobz needing a BC which costs 117pts I believe.
SemperMortis, try the list out as it is. I think it is a strong list. If you find yourself struggling against, say, rhinos and dreadnaughts, then you might consider taking more BCs instead of a kommando squad or two, or perhaps a deffkopta.
Also, try and find out if you need an extra warboss. Sometimes that warboss on a bike comes in handy. Not being able to advance and charge can be a real downer.
Also, you might consider the 6+ FNP warlord trait on Ghaz. If you run him together with Grotsnik it will really improve his durability, giving him a 30% save on every wound and a personal healer. And Ghaz is such a beast this edition.
Boss Nob w/ Choppa --> 4 Attacks --> 2.67 Hits --> 0.89 Wounds --> 0.3 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.3 Damage --> 0.3/6 = 0.05 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa --> 3 Attacks --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wounds --> 0.335 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.67 Damage --> 0.67/15 = 0.0447 Damage Per Point
Boss Nob w/ Power Klaw --> 3 Attacks --> 1.5 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.83 Unsaved Wounds --> 1.66 Damage --> 1.66/31 = 0.0535 Damage Per Point
Damage per point is not an effective measure here cause you can't have more than one nob in boy squads. It's also impossible to calculate the dpp (damage per point) of a mass of troops cause you can't guarantee everything is going to strike while you're still paying full points for every member of the squad. So, force concentration is a thing.
I would likely give BC to the Boyz and Stormboyz nobz and drop 1 Kommando Squad (5*9 = 45 points which is equal to a single bare bone Kommando squad). I don't think the difference between 7 and 8 Kommando squads is huge, You still would have 11 "reserve" units to force your opponent to reveal their deployment, You still have all your large squads. I don't see the value in putting BCs on your Kommando squads as they are too fragile for the investment.
A good friend of mine is trying to get rid of his 40k Orks army. Thing is, he has most of the Forgeworld tanks like the Kill Bursta, kill blasta, kill krusha, the old Battle Fortress and some of the "improved" Trukks and stuff.
I do love the models and since they're super expensive and some aren't even available anymore it gives me quite the tingle in the fingers.
I took a look into the Xenos 2 Index and the Forgeworld Xenos Codex but I have zero Idea about Orks in 40k. I do have a Adeptus Sororitas army but that's it.
Are those things "worth it"? I mean, there are no rules for the Battle Fortress, but I guess I could run it as a (giant) Squiggoth?
Any advise if I should get them? At least 50% off or cheaper he told me.
Damage per point is not an effective measure here cause you can't have more than one nob in boy squads. It's also impossible to calculate the dpp (damage per point) of a mass of troops cause you can't guarantee everything is going to strike while you're still paying full points for every member of the squad. So, force concentration is a thing.
I was never attempting to calculate the output of an entire Boyz unit, just the Nob after one round of combat. DPP is just another statistic to judge effectiveness of wargear options. If we picked everything based on damage alone, we would often be paying for the most expensive wargear! What matters is how much bang you're getting for your buck.
Breng77 wrote: I would likely give BC to the Boyz and Stormboyz nobz and drop 1 Kommando Squad (5*9 = 45 points which is equal to a single bare bone Kommando squad). I don't think the difference between 7 and 8 Kommando squads is huge, You still would have 11 "reserve" units to force your opponent to reveal their deployment, You still have all your large squads. I don't see the value in putting BCs on your Kommando squads as they are too fragile for the investment.
That is a very good suggestion, and I think i'll do that.
That is a very good suggestion, and I think i'll do that.
You've probably already thought of this, but be sure to check how many units you're putting in reinforcements vs. on the table. With all those Kommandos and Deffkoptas in reinforcements I'm not sure your list would be legal in Matched Play.
Glad to see semper warming up to idea of kittin out his nobs a bit. List looks wicked, I think the versatility willl help a lot.
I'm sure semper has thought about how many he's allowed to put in rese be vs on table. I think he has 10-11 drops on field, so not much is restrained from going in reserve.
Look forward to hearing your list goes.
I've been toying around with some low model count easy to do movement phase lists centered around:
Ghazzy
Weird boy
KFF mek on bike
Banner nob
BW full of bustas
BW full of 17-20 boys
BW with 2 squads 10 boys
BW full of nobs or flash gits
Leaving room for characters to ride with boys, and if their ride blows up, have 3 spots open in busta wagon and one in flash git or nob wagon to let characters pop in there.
The KFF should be able to cover all the wagons if I run them tight. I had considered dropping a wagon, and find points to include a garg squig for the bustas to ride in instead. Wouldn't mind adding zharsanark either. Currently it's 5 drops and 7 CP total (3 base 3 battalion 1 spearhead)
Afraid it still won't "cut the mustard" in tourney play.
Glad to see semper warming up to idea of kittin out his nobs a bit. List looks wicked, I think the versatility willl help a lot.
I'm sure semper has thought about how many he's allowed to put in rese be vs on table. I think he has 10-11 drops on field, so not much is restrained from going in reserve.
Look forward to hearing your list goes.
I've been toying around with some low model count easy to do movement phase lists centered around:
Ghazzy
Weird boy
KFF mek on bike
Banner nob
BW full of bustas
BW full of 17-20 boys
BW with 2 squads 10 boys
BW full of nobs or flash gits
Leaving room for characters to ride with boys, and if their ride blows up, have 3 spots open in busta wagon and one in flash git or nob wagon to let characters pop in there.
The KFF should be able to cover all the wagons if I run them tight. I had considered dropping a wagon, and find points to include a garg squig for the bustas to ride in instead. Wouldn't mind adding zharsanark either. Currently it's 5 drops and 7 CP total (3 base 3 battalion 1 spearhead)
Afraid it still won't "cut the mustard" in tourney play.
I encourage you to MSU and mix your units across your Battlewagonz so that no tactical genius can handicap the mobility of one strategic facet in your army by just destroying one battlewagon. So, instead of running 15 Bustas in a wagon, run ten boyz, five bustas, five Nobz in a wagon and do this identically over the whole brigade of battlewagonz. This way, no matter which wagon is destroyed first, you won't lack for one type of firepower.
Glad to see semper warming up to idea of kittin out his nobs a bit. List looks wicked, I think the versatility willl help a lot.
I'm sure semper has thought about how many he's allowed to put in rese be vs on table. I think he has 10-11 drops on field, so not much is restrained from going in reserve.
Look forward to hearing your list goes.
I've been toying around with some low model count easy to do movement phase lists centered around:
Ghazzy
Weird boy
KFF mek on bike
Banner nob
BW full of bustas
BW full of 17-20 boys
BW with 2 squads 10 boys
BW full of nobs or flash gits
Leaving room for characters to ride with boys, and if their ride blows up, have 3 spots open in busta wagon and one in flash git or nob wagon to let characters pop in there.
The KFF should be able to cover all the wagons if I run them tight. I had considered dropping a wagon, and find points to include a garg squig for the bustas to ride in instead. Wouldn't mind adding zharsanark either. Currently it's 5 drops and 7 CP total (3 base 3 battalion 1 spearhead)
Afraid it still won't "cut the mustard" in tourney play.
I encourage you to MSU and mix your units across your Battlewagonz so that no tactical genius can handicap the mobility of one strategic facet in your army by just destroying one battlewagon. So, instead of running 15 Bustas in a wagon, run ten boyz, five bustas, five Nobz in a wagon and do this identically over the whole brigade of battlewagonz. This way, no matter which wagon is destroyed first, you won't lack for one type of firepower.
I had considered doing just exactly that. I was worried however that losing t8 on 2-3 wagons (using hard cases for all wagons aside from the busta wagon, if I include gits over nobs than their wagon will also be open topped.
I figure for target saturation (a joke with 5 models on table) it may be better to have two t8 vehicles at minimum. If I split bustas into smaller units than it's 10 bustas to get 4 squig bombs? Leaving only 6 spots in transport. I suppose I could run 5 busts + 2 squigs + 10 boys and chars or more boys in 2 wagons. Just lose the t8 protection for boys. Hmm.
I like the idea of bustas + gits in same wagon but thinking gits just aren't that competitive. Feel like 35-40 boys would do better at anti infantry point doe point
You've probably already thought of this, but be sure to check how many units you're putting in reinforcements vs. on the table. With all those Kommandos and Deffkoptas in reinforcements I'm not sure your list would be legal in Matched Play.
That is a good point, with the change I suggested he has 11 potential reserve units, and 10 Always on table units (4 HQ, 3 Boyz, 2 Storm boyz, Mad Dok.) So right now 1 unit of those reserves would need to start on the table for a legal deployment (at least half must be on the table) assuming it is half rounding up (not certain of this I would need to check the FAQ) like modifiers. Given that I might consider dropping another Kommando Squad. Adding up the points in your original list I come up to 1984.
Dropping 2 Kommando squads and buying 5 big Choppas brings you to 1939. So 62 points under.
Your options from what I see would be
1.) Make 5 of your remaining Kommando Squads 6 orks, and add 1 storm boy to each squad (or add 5 storm boyz and 2 Kommandos to the list, or some combination)
2.) Add a single KMK 3.)Add 20 Grots as back field objective holders/useless early drops.
4.) Keep the extra Kommando squad as a back field objective sitting unit, adding 2 storm boyz.
JimOnMars wrote: Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
You are still missing the point. In a vacuum the choppa is more efficient pontswise. However in actual games the big choppa is the last model removed and thus its benefits are compounded because it's available longer. The choppas are good but still mostly there as ablative wounds because the nob should always be the last model removed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RoninXiC wrote: Hey guys. I have a "different" kind of question.
A good friend of mine is trying to get rid of his 40k Orks army. Thing is, he has most of the Forgeworld tanks like the Kill Bursta, kill blasta, kill krusha, the old Battle Fortress and some of the "improved" Trukks and stuff.
I do love the models and since they're super expensive and some aren't even available anymore it gives me quite the tingle in the fingers.
I took a look into the Xenos 2 Index and the Forgeworld Xenos Codex but I have zero Idea about Orks in 40k. I do have a Adeptus Sororitas army but that's it.
Are those things "worth it"? I mean, there are no rules for the Battle Fortress, but I guess I could run it as a (giant) Squiggoth?
Any advise if I should get them? At least 50% off or cheaper he told me.
The killkrusha is the only model without rules the battle fortress according to forgeworld will have a dataslate online soon.
JimOnMars wrote: Also in defense of the BC, as you say it can pack more punch in any fixed sized unit (from 5 to 30) and more into limited space (trukk, BW or as constrained by terrain.)
Plus, it magnifies the effect of Green Tide, Warpath and Ghaz's and Wagggh Banner Nob's buffs.
So I changed my mind again...if you think these apply, then the BC is likely worth it's 9 points.
LOL except in my list where it is competing against a free weapon. the Calculations are wrong because I am taking a 6pt boyz model and for free am turning it into a Nob. So the 6 is taken regardless, what you are really comparing is a Zero Point Choppa to a 9pt Big Choppa and that is why in my specific list it isn't worth taking. Again, I am using Soviet era tactics, quantity is its own quality
You are still missing the point. In a vacuum the choppa is more efficient pontswise. However in actual games the big choppa is the last model removed and thus its benefits are compounded because it's available longer. The choppas are but still bit mostly there as ablative wounds because the nob should always be the lady model removed.
Yeah I got that Gungo, but in my meta, my opponents are rather good at removing models and keep in mind for Orkz to suffer catastrophic leadership issues it doesn't take that much. If you kill 15 boyz in a 30 boyz mob you are basically losing D6 boyz unless you happen to be near Ghaz or another 30 blob. So with that in mind my opponents now just focus fire down one blob at a time and laugh when they wipe themselves out due to leadership. But in general I get what you are saying. I am just trying to maximize troop counts and not give my opponent a better reason to ensure a boyz unit gets wiped out. I have won games by lone nobz holding an objective long after their unit was wiped
Also, leaving a pile of grots on the table might be a good idea. I'll have to look into that.
skyfi wrote: Glad to see semper warming up to idea of kittin out his nobs a bit. List looks wicked, I think the versatility willl help a lot.
I'm sure semper has thought about how many he's allowed to put in rese be vs on table. I think he has 10-11 drops on field, so not much is restrained from going in reserve.
Look forward to hearing your list goes.
I've been toying around with some low model count easy to do movement phase lists centered around:
Ghazzy
Weird boy
KFF mek on bike
Banner nob
BW full of bustas
BW full of 17-20 boys
BW with 2 squads 10 boys
BW full of nobs or flash gits
Leaving room for characters to ride with boys, and if their ride blows up, have 3 spots open in busta wagon and one in flash git or nob wagon to let characters pop in there.
The KFF should be able to cover all the wagons if I run them tight. I had considered dropping a wagon, and find points to include a garg squig for the bustas to ride in instead. Wouldn't mind adding zharsanark either. Currently it's 5 drops and 7 CP total (3 base 3 battalion 1 spearhead)
Afraid it still won't "cut the mustard" in tourney play.
I encourage you to MSU and mix your units across your Battlewagonz so that no tactical genius can handicap the mobility of one strategic facet in your army by just destroying one battlewagon. So, instead of running 15 Bustas in a wagon, run ten boyz, five bustas, five Nobz in a wagon and do this identically over the whole brigade of battlewagonz. This way, no matter which wagon is destroyed first, you won't lack for one type of firepower.
I had considered doing just exactly that. I was worried however that losing t8 on 2-3 wagons (using hard cases for all wagons aside from the busta wagon, if I include gits over nobs than their wagon will also be open topped.
I figure for target saturation (a joke with 5 models on table) it may be better to have two t8 vehicles at minimum. If I split bustas into smaller units than it's 10 bustas to get 4 squig bombs? Leaving only 6 spots in transport. I suppose I could run 5 busts + 2 squigs + 10 boys and chars or more boys in 2 wagons. Just lose the t8 protection for boys. Hmm.
I like the idea of bustas + gits in same wagon but thinking gits just aren't that competitive. Feel like 35-40 boys would do better at anti infantry point doe point
In a list limited by the occupancy space of battlewagonz I feel Flash gitz, Nobz, and others are more legitimate as passengers than boyz. 5 Flash Gitz, on the move, shoot MEQ as good as twenty shoota boyz and cost just ten points more. I would plan to fill battlewagonz 15 to 17 bodies, leaving space for a squig or two, and the stray character that needs a ride (like Ghaz) when someone pops their ride.
My problem with my wagon lists right now? T8 -> Deff Rolla on a wagon seems mandatory, making shooting assets a liability since they have to jump out. What I could forsee our own Lootas doing to a t7 Wagon makes me ill.
Still, open topped is almost unique to an ork army. I feel someone has to be having some success driving up to just two feet away and handing out small handfuls of Damage 3 rokkitz and large handfuls of -2AP lead. Once you add the cost of occupants to the Wagon you have something superior to a Land Raider in shootiness only just inferior in survivability. However, if I was going to shoot, I would have the whole army shoot.
I personally prefer to equip for melee, which means Ard case, Deff Rollas, tankhammers, skorcha, and powerklaws. Shooting is an afterthought for me. A mobile horde in half the footprint I feel does best at rolling right up to a valueable asset crippling that, then playing to objectives and I think melee does that better.
Maybe I am taking too many boys. Just aiming to make use of ghaz +1a and use them as anti infantry. afraid they couldn't cross board on foot. Trying to minimize efficacy of small arms fire and force it to fire against a t7/8 target. The conventional wisdom seems to be "boys over everything else" or "boys do it better"
maybe mobilized shooty lists aren't going to be that competitive for us, which is why I have tried to not stick to just shooting units. Afraid with all the modifiers of -1 I'll find myself in situations where I can't hit stuff except on a 7+.
I was hoping with 30 boys, ghaz and possibly nobs, wfor old ne enough of a pushy melee threat that they (and their t8 rides) would take the lion share of enemy fire in hopes of blowing wagons up or slowing them down, hopefully leaving the t7 wagons unmolested to shoot from. Ard case wagons take dedd rollas as well to help, while I am torn about spending points on rollas for gunship style wagons.
Thanks for the input. Will have to do some thinking before my game tomorrow
skyfi wrote: Glad to see semper warming up to idea of kittin out his nobs a bit. List looks wicked, I think the versatility willl help a lot.
I'm sure semper has thought about how many he's allowed to put in rese be vs on table. I think he has 10-11 drops on field, so not much is restrained from going in reserve.
Look forward to hearing your list goes.
I've been toying around with some low model count easy to do movement phase lists centered around:
Ghazzy Weird boy KFF mek on bike Banner nob BW full of bustas BW full of 17-20 boys BW with 2 squads 10 boys BW full of nobs or flash gits
Leaving room for characters to ride with boys, and if their ride blows up, have 3 spots open in busta wagon and one in flash git or nob wagon to let characters pop in there.
The KFF should be able to cover all the wagons if I run them tight. I had considered dropping a wagon, and find points to include a garg squig for the bustas to ride in instead. Wouldn't mind adding zharsanark either. Currently it's 5 drops and 7 CP total (3 base 3 battalion 1 spearhead)
Afraid it still won't "cut the mustard" in tourney play.
I encourage you to MSU and mix your units across your Battlewagonz so that no tactical genius can handicap the mobility of one strategic facet in your army by just destroying one battlewagon. So, instead of running 15 Bustas in a wagon, run ten boyz, five bustas, five Nobz in a wagon and do this identically over the whole brigade of battlewagonz. This way, no matter which wagon is destroyed first, you won't lack for one type of firepower.
I had considered doing just exactly that. I was worried however that losing t8 on 2-3 wagons (using hard cases for all wagons aside from the busta wagon, if I include gits over nobs than their wagon will also be open topped.
I figure for target saturation (a joke with 5 models on table) it may be better to have two t8 vehicles at minimum. If I split bustas into smaller units than it's 10 bustas to get 4 squig bombs? Leaving only 6 spots in transport. I suppose I could run 5 busts + 2 squigs + 10 boys and chars or more boys in 2 wagons. Just lose the t8 protection for boys. Hmm.
I like the idea of bustas + gits in same wagon but thinking gits just aren't that competitive. Feel like 35-40 boys would do better at anti infantry point doe point
In a list limited by the occupancy space of battlewagonz I feel Flash gitz, Nobz, and others are more legitimate as passengers than boyz. 5 Flash Gitz, on the move, shoot MEQ as good as twenty shoota boyz and cost just ten points more. I would plan to fill battlewagonz 15 to 17 bodies, leaving space for a squig or two, and the stray character that needs a ride (like Ghaz) when someone pops their ride.
My problem with my wagon lists right now? T8 -> Deff Rolla on a wagon seems mandatory, making shooting assets a liability since they have to jump out. What I could forsee our own Lootas doing to a t7 Wagon makes me ill.
Still, open topped is almost unique to an ork army. I feel someone has to be having some success driving up to just two feet away and handing out small handfuls of Damage 3 rokkitz and large handfuls of -2AP lead. Once you add the cost of occupants to the Wagon you have something superior to a Land Raider in shootiness only just inferior in survivability. However, if I was going to shoot, I would have the whole army shoot.
I personally prefer to equip for melee, which means Ard case, Deff Rollas, tankhammers, skorcha, and powerklaws. Shooting is an afterthought for me. A mobile horde in half the footprint I feel does best at rolling right up to a valueable asset crippling that, then playing to objectives and I think melee does that better.
A battlewagon is already heavily over priced at 160pts before you add on passengers or weapons for the actual wagon. If you filled it with 5 Flash Gitz, 5 Tank Bustas and 5 Nobz you are looking at 465pts for a unit that puts out 5 Rokkitz, 15 Snazz Gun and 10 Shoota shots a turn, thats 5 S8 -2 shots, 15 S5 -2 shots and 10 S4 shots (if you equip the Wagon with rokkitz it goes up 48pts in price but gains 4 S8 shots). A Land Raider for 316pts puts out 14/28 S4 shots, 1 S8 -4 Shot, 12 S6 -1 Shots. And the Ork shooting is hitting on 5s and the Landraider is hitting on 3s. So for the Ork Vehicle, 1-2 S8 shots will hit, 5 S5 shots will hit and 3 S4 shots will hit, for the Land Raider, 10/20 S4 shots will hit, 1 S8 shot will likely hit, and 8 S6 shots will hit. And the Land Raider is significantly more durable with T8 and a 2+ save. Why The Wagon didn't get a 3+ save is beyond me. With Hardtop it should be a 2+ save.
That is a very good suggestion, and I think i'll do that.
You've probably already thought of this, but be sure to check how many units you're putting in reinforcements vs. on the table. With all those Kommandos and Deffkoptas in reinforcements I'm not sure your list would be legal in Matched Play.
I had forgotten about that rule, what I did was I took away 1 Kommando unit and gave BC's to Boyz and Stormboyz Nobz, then I moved 1 deff Kopta into another so I have 4 deff Koptas still just in 3 units instead of 4. This will inevitably draw more fire on them but so be it. Maybe i'll have them jink
Semper I feel like you merged two of my four thoughts a little unfairly to make my point look silly. Yes I said shoot better then a Land Raider, but no I didn't really mean with the mixed occupants. With those occupants in your example you have to look at the whole picture and not just the dakka in a vacuum.
I could say two battlewagonz with Ard Case cost the same as a Land Raider and would beat it just because they could assault the Land Raider repeatedly. Anywho, A Deff Rolla Battlewagon with 2x5 tankbustas, costs nearly the same, and could cause the Land Raider to take roughly (large variance) five damage a turn, then the wagon promptly tie it up in CC.
But I don't have an issue with shooting Land Raiders or something. I mentioned I build mine for t8 deff rolla and skimp on gunz I wouldn't begin to say shoot from them unless your army is all in on rokkitz, snazzgunz, and/or/maybe skorcha burna.
What is the best way to to run a mechanized force competitively ?
I play speed freaks, and have typically played a fully mobilized force of bikes, trukks, and wagons. Nob bikers
don't seem worth it, neither do manz inside a transport.
Trukks seem fragile in comparison. T6 10w (ramshackle is great though) and you get 2 barebones trucks for 164 transporting 24 vs t7 16w 20 transport for 161. The extra 4 wounds between two trucks is nice, as is the extra 4 transport capacity. They are harder to protect with KFF with increased footprint also, and squads of boys can't be very large. I don't care as much for the +1 for 20 boys as much as having one larger squad as a LD boost for smaller units nearby if needed. Trying to include 3 troop choices for the extra Cp
I don't intend to put any guns on the wagons, except with extra points maybe add a big shoota or 2 if points can't be used elsewhere. As you have said, they are overlcosted already. One caveat I would say, is that with a rolla, they are mighty fine close combat monsters with 8 S8 -2 attacks on a 2+. Absorbing overwatch and piling in to several units that most likely won't harm them at all, forcing fall backs is a nice boon also.
I definitely don't want to make them any more expensive than adding a rolla. I would really like to find a way to (somewhat) competitively (but I concede not the most competitive) run a full mech (and bikes as needed) list.
I just don't see myself painting (or wanting to move) 100+ boys a turn. I think that a speed freak army is not near as competitive as a green tide this edition, but I'd like to figure out how to make it best work.
I love the idea of gun boats zipping around dakka'ing everything down, but I don't think our shooting is accurate enough to make it work.
Have a few koptas and 5-6 nob bikers, can build some buggies, have 10 storm boys (they don't really fit the mechanized idea and provide something soft for small arms to focus fire down is my reason for not including them)
Have a couple of trukks but can scratch build some more.
I agree there isn't going to be a way to compete tit for tat in a shooting match with a LR, while being fully mechanized. The benefits of having the "mobile cover" of a transport is huge though, not to mention the added range the transport provides vs moving on foot. For comparisons vs a LR i def wouldn't include 10 boys (or 5 nobs unless they had kombi-rokkits and ammo runts which increase cost) in a open topped wagon though. They shooting they put out is negligible, unless lucky. Filling a wagon with just gits, bustas, lootas, or a mix seems better? The 316 for a LR isn't going to be outshot by orks when you factor in a 180 point transport (including rolla) but the wagon is going to be far more effective in close combat when it comes time for that.
I've considered running bustas x10 +2 squigs in a trukk along with 6 gits +6 runts in another. T6 though. Ugh. Would really like all the weight of fire s6 shooting to need 5s to wound. I think the gains of wounds and transport capacity by runnin 2 trukks over a wagon can be easily mitigated because of their lower toughness. That config clocks in at 540 points though for
10 s8 -2 3Dmg shots with 5+ to hit (reroll to hit vs vehicles)
2 s8 -2 d6 damage squigs hitting on a 2+ (One use only)
6 s5 5+ big shoota from trukks
18 s5 -2 shots hitting on a 4+ with rerolls to hit (5+ if they move)
If I put 10 bustas 2 squigs and 5 gits + 3 runts into a wagon with rolla it cuts cost to 517 (over 200 greater than LR) with no where near as probable damage with accuracy taken into account. Only caveat is the wagon would be good in melee when I can dedicate it to that, and camp bodies on obj when they jump out. A wagon could be kitted out to home 2 units of 5 gits + 5 runts also, making best use of msu to hold obj (especially since big guns never tire seems to be the only mission Where unit type matters. One wagon full of gits and a rolla is 490, not sure the cost increase vs a LR is justifiable
Just really not liking the damage output of mechanized shooty orks. Thinking orks may be pigeonholed into running close combat armies, combined forces of mechanized + foot troops, + static shooty units.
Reading a lot of talk about open-topped Battlewagons, but no love for Trukks.
First off, let's agree any mechanized list (or any competitive Ork list) is taking at least one Big Mek on Bike w/ KFF. It's honestly the best thing in our codex.
Standard Trukk w/ Rokkit Launcha becomes 88 Points for T6 10 Wounds 4+/5++ (Ramshackle)
Cheapest open-topped Wagon becomes 161 Points for T7 16 Wounds 4+/5++
So if you're looking for an open-topped transport for your Shootas/Tankbustas/Flash Gitz... the Trukk is roughly half the price of the Wagon. So you would expect its survivability to be half as well? Nope. T6 vs. T7 not a huge difference, 10 vs. 16 wounds is more-than-half. Ramshackle is a lifesaver.
On top of all that, running shooty units in Trukks means that your eggs are spread out among multiple baskets. When a Trukk gets popped you don't suffer a critical loss. When a Battlewagon gets popped say goodbye to a significant chunk of your dakka.
Rismonite wrote: Semper I feel like you merged two of my four thoughts a little unfairly to make my point look silly. Yes I said shoot better then a Land Raider, but no I didn't really mean with the mixed occupants. With those occupants in your example you have to look at the whole picture and not just the dakka in a vacuum.
I could say two battlewagonz with Ard Case cost the same as a Land Raider and would beat it just because they could assault the Land Raider repeatedly. Anywho, A Deff Rolla Battlewagon with 2x5 tankbustas, costs nearly the same, and could cause the Land Raider to take roughly (large variance) five damage a turn, then the wagon promptly tie it up in CC.
But I don't have an issue with shooting Land Raiders or something. I mentioned I build mine for t8 deff rolla and skimp on gunz I wouldn't begin to say shoot from them unless your army is all in on rokkitz, snazzgunz, and/or/maybe skorcha burna.
I apologize (sincerely) that wasn't my intent. I was just pointing out that Wagons are god awful and shooting from them is a waste of time/points. The way you currently run them is how I would run them if I chose to do so. My Meta has far to many S8+ -2/3 weapons for me to want to field a wagon unfortunately :( I am still floored that they didn't give the battlewagon at least a 3+ save, I mean hell, make Ard Top increase T and give +1 to saving throws.
Good points and input everyone. Thanks. Was thinking more about mobile shooty orks and went back to drawing board. This list is 1861 as is so room still. Just a different approach entirely to shooty orks. Couldn't help but include one supa kannon.
5 trukks, each with a shooty unit. One trukk has 2 squads of 6 lootas (3 heavy for each detachment). Also helps to drop some off here and there for objectives. Then one BW with 6 lootas and supa kannon. Two biker KFF Meks to make sure stuff is safe and can split into two forces.
Could easily swap out a trukk for a big trakk with guns also and have loota to spare
Spoiler:
2 spearhead detachments
+ HQ +
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 101pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 101pts]: Choppa, Kustom Force Field
I'm thinking of running a Dakkajet with 6 supa shootas for a nice shooty unit that contributes starting turn 1 and helps take the heat off of my footsloggers. Anyone have luck using one?
v0iddrgn wrote: I'm thinking of running a Dakkajet with 6 supa shootas for a nice shooty unit that contributes starting turn 1 and helps take the heat off of my footsloggers. Anyone have luck using one?
Hands down they're the best flyer we've got. You'll even see one or two taken in certain tournament lists. Obviously you want to pay for the extra two supa shootas. But don't bother taking any if you don't have a KFF Big Mek to deploy them near.
Modified my speed freak list based upon replies here to be trukk based instead of wagon. Liked idea of including a supa kannon but isn't working out points wise and thinking more lootas is better bet.
I was being lazy on scribe, this is a battalion and a spearhead for 4 cp 9 drops
Lootas may be combined to a single unit of 10 to make better use of CP re rolls as I have enough heavy reqs
Quick thought on the BC vs unupgraded Nobs debate...
Wouldn't a Combi-Scorcha be better value for a Boss Nob before a Big Choppa? I don't know the points values, but I think the combi-skorcha is cheaper too- and it's utility in Overwatch and for auto-hits... Yes? No?
The combi scorcha is about 20 points. Big choppa is 9.
I thought I'd ask about bikes. I bought a set of 3 bikes yesterday. I am probably going to use one of them as a warboss on a bike for my next game. In future games, I was thinking to run a 3 man squad of bikers or biker nobs.
Sp I calculated....3 nobs with 1 boss nob w/ big choppa is 90 points.
3 biker nobs with big choppa is 135. But they can also change in their slugga for shoota, and get potentially 8 shots each.
So for 45 points, you get 2 models with extra strength, wound and attack. Is it worth it? I am leaning towards running the 90 point squad and see how my opponent reacts to them.
bucheonman wrote: The combi scorcha is about 20 points. Big choppa is 9.
I thought I'd ask about bikes. I bought a set of 3 bikes yesterday. I am probably going to use one of them as a warboss on a bike for my next game. In future games, I was thinking to run a 3 man squad of bikers or biker nobs.
Sp I calculated....3 nobs with 1 boss nob w/ big choppa is 90 points.
3 biker nobs with big choppa is 135. But they can also change in their slugga for shoota, and get potentially 8 shots each.
So for 45 points, you get 2 models with extra strength, wound and attack. Is it worth it? I am leaning towards running the 90 point squad and see how my opponent reacts to them.
I shelved my Bike Horde this edition, they just aren't worth the cost. The average biker went up in price 50% and lost durability. Doubling his shots sounds great but if you do the math its not that much of an improvement for Orkz. Here let me show you.
TL Heavy Bolter on a BS4 Marine meant 2 hits on the first batch and a 2/3rd chance to hit with the 2nd batch. So 2.66 hits a turn, NOW that TL heavy bolter is doing 4 hits a turn, an improvement of 1.34.
TL Dakka Gunz on a BS2 Ork meant 1 hit on the first batch and a 2/3rd chance to get 1 more, 1.66 hits a turn, NOW it averages 2. an improvement of 0.34.
As to the durability loss, Warbikers lost JINK and they lost their +1 to cover when turbo-boosting. They gained +1 wound, however, due to the nature of the new rules a number of weapons used against bikers now have D3, D6 or 2-3 damage each so the likelihood of losing a biker to shooting has actually gone up dramatically. I used to love putting warbikers out front after turbo-boosting turn 1 during night fighting. +2 to cover saves meant a 2+ jink save, now they just die to anything that has 2 damage or better and -1+ AP.
Now with all that said lets throw some light on that dark parade. 1st off, biker characters are doing pretty good in this edition, so using your bikers as Big Mekz on bike or Warbosses on Bike is a good idea. ALSO and probably most importantly, GW is going to release an Ork Codex HOPEFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with updates to ork units after theyve gathered all the current data that shows 3/4ths of the codex is hot garbage. So if we are lucky they might drop Bikers down to 18pts again where they are usable, they might also add +1 to most ork ranged weapons in the hopes of giving us a semi-shooty army. Fingers crossed!
bucheonman wrote: The combi scorcha is about 20 points. Big choppa is 9.
I thought I'd ask about bikes. I bought a set of 3 bikes yesterday. I am probably going to use one of them as a warboss on a bike for my next game. In future games, I was thinking to run a 3 man squad of bikers or biker nobs.
Sp I calculated....3 nobs with 1 boss nob w/ big choppa is 90 points.
3 biker nobs with big choppa is 135. But they can also change in their slugga for shoota, and get potentially 8 shots each.
So for 45 points, you get 2 models with extra strength, wound and attack. Is it worth it? I am leaning towards running the 90 point squad and see how my opponent reacts to them.
I shelved my Bike Horde this edition, they just aren't worth the cost. The average biker went up in price 50% and lost durability. Doubling his shots sounds great but if you do the math its not that much of an improvement for Orkz. Here let me show you.
TL Heavy Bolter on a BS4 Marine meant 2 hits on the first batch and a 2/3rd chance to hit with the 2nd batch. So 2.66 hits a turn, NOW that TL heavy bolter is doing 4 hits a turn, an improvement of 1.34.
TL Dakka Gunz on a BS2 Ork meant 1 hit on the first batch and a 2/3rd chance to get 1 more, 1.66 hits a turn, NOW it averages 2. an improvement of 0.34.
As to the durability loss, Warbikers lost JINK and they lost their +1 to cover when turbo-boosting. They gained +1 wound, however, due to the nature of the new rules a number of weapons used against bikers now have D3, D6 or 2-3 damage each so the likelihood of losing a biker to shooting has actually gone up dramatically. I used to love putting warbikers out front after turbo-boosting turn 1 during night fighting. +2 to cover saves meant a 2+ jink save, now they just die to anything that has 2 damage or better and -1+ AP.
Now with all that said lets throw some light on that dark parade. 1st off, biker characters are doing pretty good in this edition, so using your bikers as Big Mekz on bike or Warbosses on Bike is a good idea. ALSO and probably most importantly, GW is going to release an Ork Codex HOPEFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with updates to ork units after theyve gathered all the current data that shows 3/4ths of the codex is hot garbage. So if we are lucky they might drop Bikers down to 18pts again where they are usable, they might also add +1 to most ork ranged weapons in the hopes of giving us a semi-shooty army. Fingers crossed!
I feel like something orks lack is a character that gives out re-rolls. I understand not wanting it for our close combat units (because re-rolling for a unit of 30 boyz is annoying), but I think an Ork that allows re-roll misses for shooting would go a long way to making orks better, or a Clan tactic that allows re-roll misses in some manner. Bikes with a 5+ re-rollable on 6 shots would do pretty well averaging 3-4 hits per model.
I personally think +1Attack is better then a reroll when a Waaagh banner is near.
@skyfi
Trukk orkz, can't comment on it much. Last Edition 15 Lootas could shoot two trukkz off the table, this Ed the trukk has a greater then 50% chance to survive without cover. I don't know if that means trukk is tough or Lootas are bad really. Trukk lists themselves need to change, Ork Boyz stayed the same cost and didn't really get a whole lot better. So a transport that goes from 35 to 85 points seems wasted transporting them. Wrecking ball is a must take IMO.
Strictly speaking in terms of shooty trukk ork lists;
-I think your drops should only be t6 and t5 models. I think a t7 Battlewagon lets enemy anti tank earn it's points quick. All t4 orkz should be in a trukk
-Big Mek KFF on bike is a must have
-I think Lootas in trukkz are a waste in this list
-I think the Dakkajet is useful in this list, hands out some dice and it's base can deny assault range vs assaulty stuff
-To cover lost damage for taking Dakkajets over Lootas I think you double up on Tankbustas in trukkz
-I think you run tankbustas 2x5 in trukkz for two meltabombs and two squigs
-I think a Burna trukk or two would be a good CP dump, rerolling number of hits.
-I think 5 or so Flash Gitz in a trukk is shooting comparable to 20 Shoota Boyz. I think Dakkajet is better, but Flash gitz could stand on an objective later.
-I think some Warbuggies could be used as a speed bump.
Finally, I have no confidence in anything I wrote here. I think Orkz on wheels should be assaulting, but if I wanted to shoot from Trukkz like some elfy gitz I would bring tankbustas in mass. Hopefully somebody like Blackie gets a chance to chime in, he liked talkin about goin fast in 7e and has probably tried it this edition.
EDIT, are Dark Eldar doing well because of the vehicle changes? If so, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Trukk Orkz may get better to
An example. You could remove the buggy/kopta element for two trukkz of flash gitz or Burna Boyz maybe. Or even a fourth jet. Again, this is only if you want to run shooty orkz. You protect the trukkz from assault with buggies and dakkajet bases, protect from shooting with area denial and KFF.
Also, an empty trukk to pick up tankbustas if you lose a trukk turn one.
I think GWs reason for not making trukks cheap this edition is that you can charge with vehicles now, so if you could bring a lot of cheap trukks you could just charge them all into enemy units preventing a lot of enemy units from firing and basically tar pitting them in trukks which are a lot harder to kill i CC now.
I think if they gave trukks some sort of nerf which made them easier to kill in CC then they could lower the price.
DE have 5++ and their shooting is nuts compared to ork shooting. Blasters are amazing weapons for 15 pts.
I have a speed freak batrep a couple pages ago. I'm not amazed with how they perform. And the reason why i don't think mech orks will work on top tier level in this edition if we don't have massive point changes is the following:
unlike such successful mech armies like de and harlequins, we don't get powerful shooting mixed in and focus primarily on mellee. Purely mellee squads got to go in the open before the enemy most dangerous stuff is neutered => they are the prime target after the initial combat is over. To weather the storm, they need to be quite durable or numerous. But our numerous stuff is not durable and our durable stuff is not numerous for points. So, we end up with either not too durable troops or too expensive elites. If we go the first route, we don't kill enough and we don't live too well and the vehicles themselves are too expensive to get an effective chaf spam. If we go the second route, we don't get enough units and with every vehicle going down, we loose a significant part of our forces.
So, there are a couple solutions:
- Make vehicles much less expensive - good for 1-st option with cheap boyz inside, however, i doubt that trukks will really drop to 40-45 pts. Also, 10-12 boyz still do very little damage without buffs and will still go down easilly with their 6+ save.
- Make elite squads much cheaper and by much i mean like 20% for nobz and 40% for meganobz. I doubt this will happen as the issues with ork army are quite subtle and there will be a huge outcry about OMG OP ORKS.
- Add good cheap fire support like all the other mech armies get. This is possible but it also requires some insight on how orks work in real games. We either need small squads of VERY point efficient shooters that can blend in the mech alongside choppy units (yep, much better than tankbustas) or backfield units that are once again very cheap but effective and durable or numerous and thus not take away from the front that really lacks bodies allready.
So, overall, i just don't think that gw understands our problems. And that's why they ain't gona be solved.
Rismonite wrote: I personally think +1Attack is better then a reroll when a Waaagh banner is near.
I mean it depends on the unit for units like MANZ re-rolls would be slightly better. Also that is why I said re-rolls for shooting (a boyz squad with +2 attacks, hitting on 2+ re-rollable would be silly) it would allow units like Lootas, bikes, kans, mek guns, to be more reliable and give us more options and super boyz mobs.
Rismonite wrote: I personally think +1Attack is better then a reroll when a Waaagh banner is near.
I mean it depends on the unit for units like MANZ re-rolls would be slightly better. Also that is why I said re-rolls for shooting (a boyz squad with +2 attacks, hitting on 2+ re-rollable would be silly) it would allow units like Lootas, bikes, kans, mek guns, to be more reliable and give us more options and super boyz mobs.
My fault
You know if Badrukk gave Gun Crazy Showoffs to all orkz within 9" that would be kinda kewl..
Rismonite wrote: I personally think +1Attack is better then a reroll when a Waaagh banner is near.
I mean it depends on the unit for units like MANZ re-rolls would be slightly better. Also that is why I said re-rolls for shooting (a boyz squad with +2 attacks, hitting on 2+ re-rollable would be silly) it would allow units like Lootas, bikes, kans, mek guns, to be more reliable and give us more options and super boyz mobs.
My fault
You know if Badrukk gave Gun Crazy Showoffs to all orkz within 9" that would be kinda kewl..
I mean I'd settle for him giving re-roll 1s to hit to all orks within 6" it wouldn't be great, but it would be a little buff to a bunch of our units. But yeah giving near by units a 1/6 chance of shooting again would be cool too.
Finally, I have no confidence in anything I wrote here. I think Orkz on wheels should be assaulting, but if I wanted to shoot from Trukkz like some elfy gitz I would bring tankbustas in mass. Hopefully somebody like Blackie gets a chance to chime in, he liked talkin about goin fast in 7e and has probably tried it this edition.
EDIT, are Dark Eldar doing well because of the vehicle changes? If so, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Trukk Orkz may get better to
Hi, you're right, I'm still playing with several vehicles, I just switched from trukks to BWs. I tipycally field 3 BWs full of ghaz and boyz and two trukks with 4 min units of bustas, some of them shielded by a KFF, 2 biker characters and KMKs. Only 8-9 drops in total and quite durable against tons of anti-infantries weapons which seem to dominate my meta. I also can't stand moving 200 footslogging orks and movement trays were one the reasons I never liked warhammer fantasy Pure green tide is not an option for me, regardless of its efficiency.
I also play dark eldar, they're my second army, and your're right about that too, even if they've become quite better thanks to several other factors. But paper things like DE transports have now decent durability, that's for sure. Also trukks are more resilient and they are nice to carry shooty units since you need tons of bodies to assault properly in this edition. Problem is, the only decent shooty units that can be embarked, are tankbustas. Lootas can benefit from the transport too but you're actually paying for a sort of bunker, not a transport in that case.
Not sure about planes, I've never bought them since I don't like the models. Only the dakkajet seems a bit reliable, but I still prefer warbikes to be honest.
I haven't tried buggies either, even if they're among my favorite models, since their cost is too high. I've just fielded some skorchas a couple of times and they didn't earn their points back. Burnaboyz and flash gitz shared the same destiny, for the same reason, so far. I've tried warbikes in a few occasions, they're overcosted but not that bad: they throw a decent amount of shots and/or soak a lot of firepower saving the vehicles. Just be sure that the anti-infantry weapons are not in range at least in turns 1-2 since bikes suffer a lot some massed S4 firepower which doesn't particularly hurt vehicles.
As you said before orks should be assaulty but in trukks they don't have the numbers to threaten any possible opponent, while 3 BWs full of boyz can do a decent job. Since pks are not reliable against vehicles I noticed that 20ish rokkits are still mandatory in this kind of list and if you field BWs and ghaz is embarked in one of them, many opponents will focus on the big transports leaving the bustas trukks untouched.
The biker big mek with KFF is nice but a 5++ invuln is certainly not gold. However it does its work when it comes to protect vehicles with 10+ wounds since statistically you should be able to save a multiwounds hit per vehicle. They become more resilient this way. BWs only with 'ard case to carry assaulty units, having T8 is huge, while bustas are fine in trukks.
Trukks, BWs, and buggies are quite overcosted though, how can a rhino be cheaper than a trukk when it has better T and armor save? If orks vehicles were fairly costed speed freaks armies would be the way to go, but right now 30 boyz plus weirdboy is still our better combo.
Trukks, BWs, and buggies are quite overcosted though, how can a rhino be cheaper than a trukk when it has better T and armor save? If orks vehicles were fairly costed speed freaks armies would be the way to go, but right now 30 boyz plus weirdboy is still our better combo.
Ehh I can see why Trukk should be slightly more expensive than Rhino. 10 Wounds T6 4+/5++ (because why not take a Big Mek KFF in every list). Invuln saves matter WAY more on vehicles than on troops. Then it's got Ramshackle, Open-Topped, better shooting (5+ Rokkit Launcha > 3+ Storm Bolter), better melee, and bigger transport capacity. Can you imagine if Rhino was open-topped? Ramshackle and Smoke Launchers seem to equal each other out.
The problem isn't the Trukk so much as it is the lack of OP dakka to make use of open-topped. Tankbustas are our best option, and I'd say they're fairly balanced in the grand scheme of things.
Trukks, BWs, and buggies are quite overcosted though, how can a rhino be cheaper than a trukk when it has better T and armor save? If orks vehicles were fairly costed speed freaks armies would be the way to go, but right now 30 boyz plus weirdboy is still our better combo.
Ehh I can see why Trukk should be slightly more expensive than Rhino. 10 Wounds T6 4+/5++ (because why not take a Big Mek KFF in every list)... with Ramshackle, Open-Topped, better shooting (5+ Rokkit Launcha > 3+ Storm Bolter), better melee, and bigger transport capacity. Can you imagine if Rhino was open-topped?
The problem isn't the Trukk so much as it is the lack of OP dakka to make use of open-topped. Tankbustas are our best option, and I'd say they're fairly balanced in the grand scheme of things.
T6 Vs T7, 4+ vs 3+ (if you want to add in the KFF big mek you need to add another 80ish points) better shooting? A rhino can take 2 Storm bolters for 4 S4 shots or 8 At half range hitting on 3s for 4pts, we can take 1 s8 shot hitting on 5s for 12pts. I would say they have better shooting then us. OT is nice but as you pointed out we lack any units worth putting in there. So to summarize, the Trukk is worse in every way possible to the Rhino except it has OT which it can't use very well and it can take a wrecking ball....
T6 Vs T7, 4+ vs 3+ (if you want to add in the KFF big mek you need to add another 80ish points) better shooting? A rhino can take 2 Storm bolters for 4 S4 shots or 8 At half range hitting on 3s for 4pts, we can take 1 s8 shot hitting on 5s for 12pts. I would say they have better shooting then us. OT is nice but as you pointed out we lack any units worth putting in there. So to summarize, the Trukk is worse in every way possible to the Rhino except it has OT which it can't use very well and it can take a wrecking ball....
1) Knowing 40K weapons, T6 vs T7 is not nearly as significant a difference as T7 vs. T8, for example.
2) It's hard for me not to imagine an Ork list where KFF Big Mek on Bike doesn't belong. Amazing with Mechanized lists. Lifeblood of horde lists. You're not taking it only for the Trukk, so don't think of it like that.
3) Sure 4+ vs 3+, but Invuln saves on vehicles matter WAY more, because most weapons shooting at them will have -2 or -3 AP. Can you imagine if Rhinos had an invuln?
4) Looking at the math, Rokkit Launcha vs. 2x SB is a close call in terms of damage output. Obviously they're meant for different targets, and therefore they outperform one another depending on who you are shooting. So I take back my claim of "better shooting." It's more of a wash.
5) So you agree -- the deficiency lies more in the lack of great dakka troops than with the transport carrying them =)
I actually think that Ork transports are decent this edition. A trukk is not as survivable as a rhino, but it wasn't in previous editions either. I think the BW with hard top is a good transport, and a fairly unique one in 40k.
Orks real problem is that Boyz don't work well in transports, and we have nothing shooty that targets infantry and can be put in a transport. I feel that for a transport to be worth it, the troops inside should be twice as expensive as the transport, otherwise the transport tax simply becomes to big.
I think there are a number of possible solutions for Ork mech:
1) Bring back heavy armor as an option for Boyz.
2) Let Boyz squads take a big shoota/rokkit for every five models
3) Let us take squads of bigshoota boyz that works similarly to tankbustas. 5+6 points per model.
4) Increase burnas to D6 attacks or reduce their price to 10 points.
5) Give flashgitz a 4+ save and give the snazzgun an assault 3 profile.
6) Decrease the trukk to 8 wounds and decrease it's price to 50 points.
7) Let meks and spanners repair vehicles when embarked.
8) Give us a warbike option for weirdboyz and banner nobz
9) Not really mech related, but warbikes needs a price reduction. In fact almost every two-wound model in 8th is a bit overcosted, including things like terminators and primaris marines. A two wound model does not have the same durability as two single-wound models.
Thanks again for replies. Thought more and more, helping a friend practice for a GT this weekend so going to make a tougher list to help him prep than my normal "everything in a transport themed list".. came up with two options similar to one another...
First has 4 squads on food (min squads of grots x3 and one of boys) to be jumped onto objectives.
Brigade detachment so +9 CP Boys in wagon + chars (weirdboy can start inside then hop out to jump grots screening edges of wagons to prevent deep striking plasma/melta)
Boys in wagon
Bustas x2 in trukk
Gits in trukk (better anti infantry and decent anti tank with s5 -2ap) I could do 9ish lootas in trukk instead but figured gits worked better as I have plenty of rokkits
Option 2 is battalion so +3 Cp and a spearhead +1 cp I copied my scribe stuff lazily again. Sorry.
This has 3 hard case rolla wagons of 20 boys (one has room for characters)
Trukk with gits
Trukk with 2x bustas
KFF mek on bike with killsaw
So only 6 drops, more boys, more true to speed freaks while trying to stay competitive. Again gits could dip out and free up 230+ points to include zardsnark and some koptas or buggies etc
pismakron wrote: I actually think that Ork transports are decent this edition. A trukk is not as survivable as a rhino, but it wasn't in previous editions either. I think the BW with hard top is a good transport, and a fairly unique one in 40k.
Orks real problem is that Boyz don't work well in transports, and we have nothing shooty that targets infantry and can be put in a transport. I feel that for a transport to be worth it, the troops inside should be twice as expensive as the transport, otherwise the transport tax simply becomes to big.
I think there are a number of possible solutions for Ork mech:
1) Bring back heavy armor as an option for Boyz.
2) Let Boyz squads take a big shoota/rokkit for every five models
3) Let us take squads of bigshoota boyz that works similarly to tankbustas. 5+6 points per model.
4) Increase burnas to D6 attacks or reduce their price to 10 points.
5) Give flashgitz a 4+ save and give the snazzgun an assault 3 profile.
6) Decrease the trukk to 8 wounds and decrease it's price to 50 points.
7) Let meks and spanners repair vehicles when embarked.
8) Give us a warbike option for weirdboyz and banner nobz
9) Not really mech related, but warbikes needs a price reduction. In fact almost every two-wound model in 8th is a bit overcosted, including things like terminators and primaris marines. A two wound model does not have the same durability as two single-wound models.
1.) I'm wondering if that will somehow be a clan tactic/special unit
2.)Could be interesting
3.) Again interesting ranged unit that isn't heavy weapons
4.) I think they stay D3, I would be tempted to say they should be around 8-10 points. I might go with making them 5 points per model, then give burnas a cost (3-5 points) and give you the option to upgrade a few to skorchas. Skorchas I also think need a bit of a price drop, maybe 12 points instead of 17.
5.) I'd almost like to see flashgitz with a rapid fire profile, maybe 18" rapid fire 3.
6.) I don't think making trukks much cheaper is the way to go I'd prefer maybe dropping them to 70 points, so that they are 76 with a big shoota.
7.) I'm ok with all "mek" type models in the game being able to do this.
8.) I could see this though less needed to make the mech list good.
9.) I think more than that Buggies and the like need a price reduction, especially on their weapons, if they stayed about the same base cost 40-45 point range and twin weapons get reduced so twin big shoota is maybe 10 points (for marines the Heavy bolter is 10 points and twin is 17, so 3 points cheaper than 2 of the same weapon) so I think 2 points cheaper for the twin big shoota seems fair. As for twin Rokkits, in no case is the twin weapon for marines more than twice the cost of a single weapon in most cases it is between a 66% and 100% increase, so I would say maybe have twin rokkits be 21-24 points. I think the skorcha buggy also needs a twin skorcha option at around 25 points. This would make most of these options be in the 50-70 point range.
Ehh I can see why Trukk should be slightly more expensive than Rhino. 10 Wounds T6 4+/5++ (because why not take a Big Mek KFF in every list). Invuln saves matter WAY more on vehicles than on troops.
A big mek on bike costs 101 points bare bones. 2 rhinos are cheaper than a trukk + big mek and certainly more durable with that many more wounds. The big mek can't cover more than 3 vehicles, maybe 4, if you deploy them very very close, which is probably something you don't want. A footslogging big mek is cheaper but he doesn't have synegy with vehicles.
Then it's got Ramshackle, Open-Topped, better shooting (5+ Rokkit Launcha > 3+ Storm Bolter), better melee, and bigger transport capacity. Can you imagine if Rhino was open-topped? Ramshackle and Smoke Launchers seem to equal each other out.
Ramshackle is not that great, if the vehicle takes serious anti tank it dies anyway. Open topped is great actually and it's the reason why trukks can only carry tankbustas, which is a decent combo but it's useless with any other unit embarked, since melee units don't care about that and other shooty units don't worth their points. Trukk's melee is useless, it only soaks overwatch, like rhinos. Bigger transport capacity is not a bonus since the worst marine is way more durable than the average ork, 12 orks are less resilient than 10 marines. Don't compare their shooting, cause the rhino's one is superior. I'll take 2-4 S4 shots with BS 3+ against a single S8 shot that hits on 5s everytime. With a rokkit launcha a trukk is 88 points, a rhino with 2 stormbolters is only 74 points and in rapid fire range throws 8 S4 shots. Rokkits seem great for orks, but SM have tons of better shooty options, they don't need heavy weapons on a 10 man transport. They also have razorbacks for that purpose, a razorback with twin assault cannon and a stormbolter throws 12 S6 and 2-4 S4 shots with bs 3+ for 102 points, only 14 points more than a trukk with a rokkit. And 6 marines are tipycally more durable than 12 orks too.
The problem isn't the Trukk so much as it is the lack of OP dakka to make use of open-topped. Tankbustas are our best option, and I'd say they're fairly balanced in the grand scheme of things.
The problem with the trukk is its cost. A melee units becomes too expensive for what he does with a transport. We only have the 2x5 tankbustas + squigs as reliable option for trukks. And that means that there's something that need to be fixed about the current trukks.
T6 Vs T7, 4+ vs 3+ (if you want to add in the KFF big mek you need to add another 80ish points) better shooting? A rhino can take 2 Storm bolters for 4 S4 shots or 8 At half range hitting on 3s for 4pts, we can take 1 s8 shot hitting on 5s for 12pts. I would say they have better shooting then us. OT is nice but as you pointed out we lack any units worth putting in there. So to summarize, the Trukk is worse in every way possible to the Rhino except it has OT which it can't use very well and it can take a wrecking ball....
1) Knowing 40K weapons, T6 vs T7 is not nearly as significant a difference as T7 vs. T8, for example.
2) It's hard for me not to imagine an Ork list where KFF Big Mek on Bike doesn't belong. Amazing with Mechanized lists. Lifeblood of horde lists. You're not taking it only for the Trukk, so don't think of it like that.
3) Sure 4+ vs 3+, but Invuln saves on vehicles matter WAY more, because most weapons shooting at them will have -2 or -3 AP. Can you imagine if Rhinos had an invuln?
4) Looking at the math, Rokkit Launcha vs. 2x SB is a close call in terms of damage output. Obviously they're meant for different targets, and therefore they outperform one another depending on who you are shooting. So I take back my claim of "better shooting." It's more of a wash.
5) So you agree -- the deficiency lies more in the lack of great dakka troops than with the transport carrying them =)
T6 Vs T7 isnt as big as it was last edition but it is still important, S6 weapons are fairly common and wounding on 4s over 5s is a big deal. But more importantly a 3+ vs a 4+ is a huge deal. So at the end of the day the Trukk is more expensive and less durable and as you said the dakka is a wash (though I would say 2 Stormbolters > 1 Rokkit or 1 Big Shoota). As to the KFF Big Mek on a bike....I don't have one and I don't see a huge reason to make one right now. But since you are adding it you need to factor that into the pts cost of the trukk vs Rhino otherwise you need to get rid of it all together, so lets space it out over 3 trukks to be fair, a big mek on bike with KFF and nothing else costs 101pts so that means you need to add 33.66pts to each trukk to get that 5++ KFF. The KFF only benefits the trukk on weapons that are -2AP or better. The Rhino will still be as durable until it hits -3 AP weapons and that is where the KFF starts benefiting the Trukk more then the 3+ save benefits the rhino. And now that Trukk went from 82pts (Big shoota) to 115pts because of the Cost of the KFF Big Mek on a bike who is useless except to provide that buff. Finally, to talk to your 5th point, the deficiency for Dakka should have been calculated into the cost of the trukk not the other way around so therefore the trukk should be CHEAPER then the rhino at the absolute least. Since a bare bones rhino is 70pts that means a Trukk should at the very least be 10pts less to justify the -1 toughness and -1 armor save.
And on my last thought, the only reason Orkz took Trukkz last edition was because they were Open Topped which gave them the assault vehicle special rule. This allowed 6in movement, pile out and then a 2D6 charge with rerolls. For that ability we were willing to pay 30pts (35 with ram) This edition, EVERY vehicle has that ability except nerfed. So orkz are now paying for a less durable platform that doesn't work like it is supposed to, now if they change the rules in our codex release to allow trukks to move 6-12, disembark and then charge...that is a different story, but I highly doubt that will happen.
Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model. For single-model units it only needs to touch a part of their base/hull (and for multi-model units, all must be touched by the 9" bubble... not wholly within). So a Big Mek on a Bike creates an effective ~20" diameter KFF bubble (accounting for base size of the bike). That's almost half the width of some deployment maps. I'd say you could fit lots more than only 3 Trukks in there. Hell, I've fit 3x units of 90 Stormboyz!
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model. For single-model units it only needs to touch a part of their base/hull (and for multi-model units, all must be touched by the 9" bubble... not wholly within).
So a Big Mek on a Bike creates an effective ~20" diameter KFF bubble (accounting for base size of the bike). That's almost half the width of some deployment maps.
I'd say you could fit lots more than only 3 Trukks in there. Hell, I've fit 3x units of 90 Stormboyz!
And by doing so you surrender board control to your opponent all in the name of getting a 5++ save. But that doesn't change the fact that as I showed, a 5++ Doesn't even benefit a trukk over a 3+ on a Rhino until that Rhino faces AP-3 So even if you crammed 5 trukkz into the bubble you are still tacking on 20pts to the trukk for a save that still isn't as good as the Rhino's 3+ unless its getting hit with lascannons.
So again, the Trukk is wildly over priced for what little it can do and provides for the Ork action. Yes in other factions it might be worth more since its got OT but that doesn't matter, what matters is how useful it is for Orkz
And Ramshackle is not as minuscule as some may think. Remember it's per atttack. So if D6dmg weapons (e.g. Lascannons) deal an average of 3.5 Dmg per unsaved wound... that means you'll have an average of 3x Ramshackle attempts against them. Out of 3 attempts odds aren't terrible you'll roll one 6, requiring a 4th unsaved wound for your Trukk to die. Against your average Dmg D3 weapons, you'll get even more Ramshackle attempts. Also your 14" moving Big Mek is never too far away, giving you D3 heals each turn.
Between Ramshackle, 5++ Invuln, and Mek repairs.. I stand by my statement that the Trukk is slightly more durable than a Rhino.
Nairul wrote: And Ramshackle is not as minuscule as some may think. Remember it's per atttack. So if D6dmg weapons (e.g. Lascannons) deal an average of 3.5 Dmg per unsaved wound... that means you'll have an average of 3x Ramshackle attempts against them. Out of 3 attempts odds aren't terrible you'll roll one 6, requiring a 4th unsaved wound for your Trukk to die. Against your average Dmg D3 weapons, you'll get even more Ramshackle attempts. Also your 14" moving Big Mek is never too far away, giving you D3 heals each turn.
Between Ramshackle, 5++ Invuln, and Mek repairs.. I stand by my statement that the Trukk is slightly more durable than a Rhino.
Except that SMs get Mek repairs as well, even on a bike...with better armor, and better CCWs for basically free. (12pt powerfist).
Also the way Ramshackle works is you roll a D6 when you take more then 1 damage from a weapon, on a roll of 6 you only take 1 damage. Rhinos get +1 wounds back at the start of the turn if they roll a 6. Personally Ramshackle is better but sure as hell not as good as more toughness/better armor save and cheaper price.
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model.
It does. Got faq-d
I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model.
It does. Got faq-d
I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
no it didn't get FAQ'd, the FAQ said the unit must be entirely within the 9" bubble. For something to be within it must be at least touching based on the cover rules. So the bumper of a trukk touching the bubble means the unit (made up of a single model) is entirely within.
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model.
It does. Got faq-d
I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
I have never seen them outside rhinos, and when they are inside a rhino you can block their disembark, and slay them with the transport. It is fairly straight forward, although in my local meta counter-tactics are emerging (kissing rhinos etc). If they get the charge on you, zerkers (and genestealers) will just delete whatever they touch.
v0iddrgn wrote: I just think 6 Str10 D3 attacks could be awesome.
If that's what you're looking for a PK Biker Boss is pretty close, with more than double the speed and almost half the cost. The Ironclad changes in the SM dex have me hopeful deff dreads will be getting a big price adjustment.
v0iddrgn wrote: I just think 6 Str10 D3 attacks could be awesome.
If that's what you're looking for a PK Biker Boss is pretty close, with more than double the speed and almost half the cost. The Ironclad changes in the SM dex have me hopeful deff dreads will be getting a big price adjustment.
Don't know if 4 DD3 attacks is comparable. I'm hopeful the Deffdread will get a boost with the codex too.
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model.
It does. Got faq-d
I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.
v0iddrgn wrote: I just think 6 Str10 D3 attacks could be awesome.
If that's what you're looking for a PK Biker Boss is pretty close, with more than double the speed and almost half the cost. The Ironclad changes in the SM dex have me hopeful deff dreads will be getting a big price adjustment.
Don't know if 4 DD3 attacks is comparable. I'm hopeful the Deffdread will get a boost with the codex too.
Just take zhardsnark he has 5 atks at 2+ With basically a killsaw And does an extra mortal wound on a roll of 6.
And he's even faster then a normal biker w longer range guns for much less then a dread and 11pts more then a warboss on bike.
Nairul wrote: Remember the 9" KFF bubble doesn't need to cover the entire model.
It does. Got faq-d
I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.
gungo wrote: And the kff only says within not wholly within.
From the latest FAQ:
Pages 14, 15, 16, 31 and 38 – Kustom Force Field
Change the first sentence of this rule to read:
‘If this model is equipped with a kustom force field,
friendly Ork units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+
invulnerable save against ranged weapons.’
I would guess that "entirely within" means the same thing is "wholly within" but maybe I'm wrong about that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: I'm somewhat concerned with zerkers getting possible 15 s5+ attacks per model with no point increase. Need to think how can footsloggers really deal with them. We need to bauble wrap HARD to get a chance to retaliate and than a counter-attack strategem ruins us once again. And we don't have good enough shooting for points to oppose meq with rhinos. Got to wait for codex, it seems. So far, dexes are a massive power creep.
Things like that are going to be hard to deal with in the short term, but it also makes me really excited to see what we get when the Ork codex comes out.
I really doubt this will happen, but it would make me happy if GW changed the Rokkit Launcha to be 24", Assault d3, Strength 8, AP -2, Damage 2. It would represent a relatively small but powerful blast. It would also make the Rokkit Launcha more worth its points. Might have to slightly increase the cost of Tankbustas with that change though.
Note that it doesn't say "models" entirely within. A unit is entirely within the bubble as long as all of the unit's models touch the bubble. There you go.
Battle Fortress (Gargantuan Squggoth)-350
Krusha (Hugs Tusks)-7
2 Supa-Lobbas-96
2 Twin Big Shootas-28
4 Big Shootas-24
-505
3000pts 8 CP
Meks go in whichever wagons i think my opponent is giving the evil eye, and the tankbustas/lootas ride in the battlefortress(Gargantuan Squiggoth). Since our vehicles like to assault, the strategy is to get in close while throwing down lots of dakka. I know the lootas will be -1 to hit on the move, but that's why there's fewer of them than bustas. Plus when the fortress is in combat and stationary, they'll be able to fire over everyone's heads without a BS penalty
v0iddrgn wrote: I just think 6 Str10 D3 attacks could be awesome.
If that's what you're looking for a PK Biker Boss is pretty close, with more than double the speed and almost half the cost. The Ironclad changes in the SM dex have me hopeful deff dreads will be getting a big price adjustment.
He really isn't that close if what you want is damage out put. Dread is 149 pts for 6 S10 D3, the Biker Boss is 106 points for 4 S12 DD3 attacks. The big advantages to the biker boss are durability (he cannot be shot unless he is closest), shooting (6 S5 shots) and speed (> twice as fast) Dreads can work ok if you already have a list that has other things that are drawing your opponents high damage fire power, if they are the biggest thing on your side they go down quick.
dameanone wrote: Late to the party, is there any discussion on trying to make the Kustom Stompa work? Or is it horrendously overpriced as it seems?
I've been trying to build a working list around one to no avail. I've also read every page of this ork tactics thread, and no one else has done better/bothered. I want to field my stompa so bad, but I think it'll be almost an auto loss.
btw is anyone else getting really hopeful that GW drops the price of Killsaws, PKs and other CCWs for orkz?
If a PF drops from 20-12 then a PK should drop at least to 15 and killsaws to maybe 17-18. Also if a Big Choppa drops to 6 I might take it more often then not. And finally. Maybe they heavily reduce the price of Dreadnought style weaponry for our walkers. Imagine 10pts less per deffdread CCW.
Lifta-droppa output is horrendous, Belly Gun costs you transport ability, no KFF option, no Macro weapons on a ~1000pt model. No thanks.
If I had to use one, I'd probably go double klaw since you don't lose attacks from the damage table.
Lifta-droppas not tossing vehicles around anymore just makes me too sad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: btw is anyone else getting really hopeful that GW drops the price of Killsaws, PKs and other CCWs for orkz?
If a PF drops from 20-12 then a PK should drop at least to 15 and killsaws to maybe 17-18. Also if a Big Choppa drops to 6 I might take it more often then not. And finally. Maybe they heavily reduce the price of Dreadnought style weaponry for our walkers. Imagine 10pts less per deffdread CCW.
Their willingness to adjust prices on quite a few things (and not just small adjustments) leaves me hopeful.
I also like how they used stratagems for what used to be a special rule for a unit (like the TFC tremor shot). Wasn't something I had considered before and has a lot of possibilities.
SemperMortis wrote: btw is anyone else getting really hopeful that GW drops the price of Killsaws, PKs and other CCWs for orkz?
If a PF drops from 20-12 then a PK should drop at least to 15 and killsaws to maybe 17-18. Also if a Big Choppa drops to 6 I might take it more often then not. And finally. Maybe they heavily reduce the price of Dreadnought style weaponry for our walkers. Imagine 10pts less per deffdread CCW.
I think it is a valid assumption that Klaws will drop at least the 8 points that fists has dropped. I don't know about killsaws. Chainfists has not dropped in points. If the price of Klaws don't drop they will only exist on characters, and that would be a shame.
But the bigger issue for Orks is that much of our stuff only works in mechanized lists, whereas Boyz only work in footslogging lists. There seems to be no way of running a combined arms list, because any transport in the game is prohibitively expensive when carrying 6 point models.
One way of fixing this would be to make the trukk a lot less durable and a lot less expensive. Say with 6 wounds for 35 points. Then we would have both a cheap throw-away transport for Boyz, and a more durable and expensive wagon for specialists and Nobz. But I don't think that will happen. All of the transports in 8th seems to be balanced on the assumption, that they will carry 15 point models, and when they do this, they are competitively priced.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stompa is very overpriced. Put in a similar amount of points into gorkanauts, battlewagons, or even deffdreads or similar, and you will have more wounds and more damage output. It is a shame, but hopefully they will reduce it's points in the codex, or at least double it's wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stompa is very overpriced. Put in a similar amount of points into gorkanauts, battlewagons, or even deffdreads or similar, and you will have more wounds and more damage output. It is a shame, but hopefully they will reduce it's points in the codex, or at least double it's wounds.
This made me laugh pretty hard. The irony here is that as it currently stands the Stompa is LESS durable then it was last edition EXCEPT vs Melta. That teamed with them reducing the dakka on the stompa's already gimpy ranged weapons means that if you own one it is going to be sitting on the shelf collecting dust like a giant ugly upside down vase
I haven't played a game with my Stompa yet. Partly because it just doesn't seem good. The Kustom Stompa seem really overpriced. It makes me kind of sad to compare it to any of the Imperial titans.
dameanone wrote: Points wise it seems the Kill Tanks are decent, Mek w/ KFF inside or big mek on bike with KFF outside to repair?
Kill Tanks do seem pretty good. I go back and forth between big mek on bike or in the tank. I'm actually thinking of running three Kill Tanks and running one biker mek and one infantry big mek embarked on one of the kill tanks.
I'm waiting for the Ork codex to come out before I make that kind of investment of time and money though.
Forge World has said that they're going to release datasheets for the missing models like the Mega Dread. What I'm hoping is that once GW releases its Ork Codex Forge World will release a big document that includes the missing units and makes changes to their Xenos book.
The stompa is very overpriced. Put in a similar amount of points into gorkanauts, battlewagons, or even deffdreads or similar, and you will have more wounds and more damage output. It is a shame, but hopefully they will reduce it's points in the codex, or at least double it's wounds.
This is very true, a Gorkanaut is already better in close combat than the stompa, the only advantage the stompa has is 6 damage instead of D6 and an additional -1 AP, and then D3 damage on its more attack option, vs 2. But the gorkanaut has 6 attacks! Given that for ~120 points more than a stompa I can get 3 Gorkanauts
which would have 14 more wounds, be 3 separate targets, have 18 attacks in CC (not including the 3x attack option).
Is there a point to a Biker Doc in a list with a bunch of Boyz in Battlewagon and Trukks? I really like conversions of Doc model on Bike and was looking to make one but I realize that he is expensive point wise. How would you best use him in such list?
Azhday wrote: Is there a point to a Biker Doc in a list with a bunch of Boyz in Battlewagon and Trukks? I really like conversions of Doc model on Bike and was looking to make one but I realize that he is expensive point wise. How would you best use him in such list?
Dont. Just proxy your doc model as Grotsnik, he is better across the board and only slightly more expensive then a regular dok. The only time I would suggest taking a dok on bike is if you are playing a massive biker/kopta horde and honestly at that point you have already lost so feel free to bring whatever.
Azhday wrote: Is there a point to a Biker Doc in a list with a bunch of Boyz in Battlewagon and Trukks? I really like conversions of Doc model on Bike and was looking to make one but I realize that he is expensive point wise. How would you best use him in such list?
Put him in a transport with the boys.
[...]
Best ork shooting in the index is the kustom mega kannon on a purely mathhammer/shooting per point basis.
The new twin linked rules favor space marines. They went from a 1/3 increase in effectiveness to a doubling in effectiveness. To compound thus idiocy they doubled the base shots on the assault cannon so that the space marine equivalents now have an accessible 12 shot S6 platform on every razorback or flyer in their army for a miniscule points increase.
The math doesn't favor any ork shooting units compared to their Sm counterparts unless you're using men guns.
The transport problem with boys still exists but in different ways.
As far as close combat is concerned, my major concern is that every unit can now move and shoot with at worst a -1 bs.
Footslogging boys are moving an average of 8.5 inches a turn. A tactical squad can walk back 6 inches and still shoot effective fire with any weapon out to 24 inches..
The mobility gained from a warboss is a one time average of 3.5 inches on your charge.
That means you could potentially advance into charge range 11 inches and charge 12, but the average is closer to 3.5 inches advance plus 5 inch move and an average of around 8.3 inches if you reroll every result under 3 on your charge. I consider that to be pretty close to optimal.
That means you could depend on perhaps closing 8.5+8.3 inches the turn you charge.
However if terrain or board edge was not a factor the enemy squad can kite you 6 inches a turn resulting in a net of only 3.5 inches average gained a turn by footslogging boys until you get into that 16.8 inch average charge range.
Boys do now have an armor save against some things but I question both the reliability of the painvoy at only a 6+ for units touching a 6 inch radius and also the KFF which seems pretty much as useless as 7th for full 30 man squads.
So in my mind I'm trying to think of a combination of infiltrators like kommandos, da jump weirdboyz, or stormboys to at least fix units in place or draw fire while the main anvil of the greentide rolls slowly down the board. I'm not convinced on the warboss, the painboy, or the KFF Mek for that reason and I'm mostly concerned about mobility.
That said the fact that pistols now effectively doubled the close combat output of standard MEQs appears to have gone unnoticed. Maybe that's trivial, but it's still an ork boy per shooting phase in cc with a naked MEQ squad.
I'm going to second some people's thoughts on stormboys and ask for some more experimentation (please!) from people with weirdboyz da3 jump lists. Hey - a weirdboyz still cheaper than a drop pod....
Ok, let me rephrase my question: If you had to run a bunch of Trukk/Battlewagon Boyz and a Doc on Bike, how would you position him? How would you use him most efficiently? I know math hammer is against it, but I'm pretty set on making Bike Doc and I want to use him in games.
Azhday wrote: Ok, let me rephrase my question: If you had to run a bunch of Trukk/Battlewagon Boyz and a Doc on Bike, how would you position him? How would you use him most efficiently? I know math hammer is against it, but I'm pretty set on making Bike Doc and I want to use him in games.
I would position him surrounded by the vehicles and next to your Big mek on bike with KFF.
Azhday wrote: Is there a point to a Biker Doc in a list with a bunch of Boyz in Battlewagon and Trukks? I really like conversions of Doc model on Bike and was looking to make one but I realize that he is expensive point wise. How would you best use him in such list?
Put him in a transport with the boys.
[...]
Best ork shooting in the index is the kustom mega kannon on a purely mathhammer/shooting per point basis.
The new twin linked rules favor space marines. They went from a 1/3 increase in effectiveness to a doubling in effectiveness. To compound thus idiocy they doubled the base shots on the assault cannon so that the space marine equivalents now have an accessible 12 shot S6 platform on every razorback or flyer in their army for a miniscule points increase.
The math doesn't favor any ork shooting units compared to their Sm counterparts unless you're using men guns.
The transport problem with boys still exists but in different ways.
As far as close combat is concerned, my major concern is that every unit can now move and shoot with at worst a -1 bs.
Footslogging boys are moving an average of 8.5 inches a turn. A tactical squad can walk back 6 inches and still shoot effective fire with any weapon out to 24 inches..
The mobility gained from a warboss is a one time average of 3.5 inches on your charge.
That means you could potentially advance into charge range 11 inches and charge 12, but the average is closer to 3.5 inches advance plus 5 inch move and an average of around 8.3 inches if you reroll every result under 3 on your charge. I consider that to be pretty close to optimal.
That means you could depend on perhaps closing 8.5+8.3 inches the turn you charge.
However if terrain or board edge was not a factor the enemy squad can kite you 6 inches a turn resulting in a net of only 3.5 inches average gained a turn by footslogging boys until you get into that 16.8 inch average charge range.
Boys do now have an armor save against some things but I question both the reliability of the painvoy at only a 6+ for units touching a 6 inch radius and also the KFF which seems pretty much as useless as 7th for full 30 man squads.
So in my mind I'm trying to think of a combination of infiltrators like kommandos, da jump weirdboyz, or stormboys to at least fix units in place or draw fire while the main anvil of the greentide rolls slowly down the board. I'm not convinced on the warboss, the painboy, or the KFF Mek for that reason and I'm mostly concerned about mobility.
That said the fact that pistols now effectively doubled the close combat output of standard MEQs appears to have gone unnoticed. Maybe that's trivial, but it's still an ork boy per shooting phase in cc with a naked MEQ squad.
I'm going to second some people's thoughts on stormboys and ask for some more experimentation (please!) from people with weirdboyz da3 jump lists. Hey - a weirdboyz still cheaper than a drop pod....
1) Tac marines can in theory kite Boy mobz for many turns, but if he tries, then just capture objectives and win the game. If you play without missions and objective capture, then any shooty list will always beat any assaulty list. Alternatively you can follow him to the table edge, charge him, and he will not be able to fall back. It is my experience, that most of you Boyz will get to charge something on your second turn.
2) A warboss is absolutely crucial in any infantry heavy Ork list. Both for the waaagh bonus, which makes a huge difference, but also for his morale buff. Don't take less than two.
3) Painboyz and kff-meks are optional, but I think that most people use them. A common loadout is two kff-meks in bikes and Grotsnik with your Weirdboyz.
4) Da Jump is nice, but often the most important psychic powers is smite, warpath and jump, ranked in that order.
5) I think Stormboyz are good, but others have more experience with them. Don't expect them to be faster than ordinary Boyz, as they will probably charge on your second turn. But their ability to charge over conscript-screens, encircle rhinos, blocking disembarkment could be powerful. I don't see any use of using da jump with stormboyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: This made me laugh pretty hard. The irony here is that as it currently stands the Stompa is LESS durable then it was last edition EXCEPT vs Melta. That teamed with them reducing the dakka on the stompa's already gimpy ranged weapons means that if you own one it is going to be sitting on the shelf collecting dust like a giant ugly upside down vase
Yes, pretty much. If you somehow were to put a gorkanaut on top of a battlewagon, then you would have a stompa. More or less the same amount of wounds, damage output, and transport capacity. And a stompa should cost the same as a gorkanaut and battlewagon combined, 550 points or so.
I have 90-ish, mixed slugga and shoota. I am looking at some of these horde lists and I think I need a lot more.
I was seriously considering doubling my force to 180. Is that just too many? It seems it would be hard to pack them all on the board. Is some other number a better sweet spot?
I have 90-ish, mixed slugga and shoota. I am looking at some of these horde lists and I think I need a lot more.
I was seriously considering doubling my force to 180. Is that just too many? It seems it would be hard to pack them all on the board. Is some other number a better sweet spot?
It depends on your overall list. But for a 2000 point green tide list 180 is normal, 150 is probably minimum. 120 is what you have next to a gargantuan squiggoth or 30 tankbustas in trukks. You can deduct some if you field lots of stormboyz and kommandos.
I have 90-ish, mixed slugga and shoota. I am looking at some of these horde lists and I think I need a lot more.
I was seriously considering doubling my force to 180. Is that just too many? It seems it would be hard to pack them all on the board. Is some other number a better sweet spot?
It depends on your overall list. But for a 2000 point green tide list 180 is normal, 150 is probably minimum. 120 is what you have next to a gargantuan squiggoth or 30 tankbustas in trukks. You can deduct some if you field lots of stormboyz and kommandos.
Yeah, if you're going all in on boyz, then 5-6 squads. Leaves plenty of room for HQs.
I have 90-ish, mixed slugga and shoota. I am looking at some of these horde lists and I think I need a lot more.
I was seriously considering doubling my force to 180. Is that just too many? It seems it would be hard to pack them all on the board. Is some other number a better sweet spot?
It depends on your overall list. But for a 2000 point green tide list 180 is normal, 150 is probably minimum. 120 is what you have next to a gargantuan squiggoth or 30 tankbustas in trukks. You can deduct some if you field lots of stormboyz and kommandos.
Yeah, if you're going all in on boyz, then 5-6 squads. Leaves plenty of room for HQs.
I am running 90 boyz tomorrow in an ITC Tournament, but I am also running like 40 Kommandos and 40 Stormboyz
I have 90-ish, mixed slugga and shoota. I am looking at some of these horde lists and I think I need a lot more.
I was seriously considering doubling my force to 180. Is that just too many? It seems it would be hard to pack them all on the board. Is some other number a better sweet spot?
I don't like the green tide style and I have 90 boyz too. But if you want to go full footsloggers 6x30 boyz are the standard. Just add tons of characters that buff them and maybe a few toys. I really can't stand the fact that this is the most competitive way to play orks, I'm looking forward to the damn codex, we cannot be forced to play this way
Don't worry when our codex comes out it will be full of nerfs for footslogging and no buffs for anything else. Because buffs are only for Marines and we're filthy xenos
So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)
So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)
So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)
So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)
No, sergeants and their equivalents are the same cost as an individual member for any squad (e.g. Boyz Boss Nob is 6 pts, Stormboyz boss nob is 8pts, Kommandos Boss Nob is 9 pts etc etc)
Hades wrote: Don't worry when our codex comes out it will be full of nerfs for footslogging and no buffs for anything else. Because buffs are only for Marines and we're filthy xenos
I have literally no doubt about this after 2 editions now.
No invulnerable saves, FNP cut in half, KFF neutered, 1 inch off movement range; he'll, the nerfs are already right there, in the index.
Considering the smorgasbord in the SM dex...free relics, double firepower on TL weapons, dirt cheap stormshields and power weapons, huge array of infantry weapons, B.S. 3 moving heavy weapons, heavy 6 assault cannons...
Cut that by at least 1/4 and that's the amount of changes/perks that will be in the codec compared to the index. Maybe if were lucky they'll give us 3 points off on power klaws and a few questionable warlord traits.
dameanone wrote: Points wise it seems the Kill Tanks are decent, Mek w/ KFF inside or big mek on bike with KFF outside to repair?
My experience so far: Even a Big Mek on foot can keep up with the tanks if you play more defensive / play shooty tanks. (If you REALLY need to get some extra points in your list.)
In every case i would place the Mek outside / take the bike Mek to repair the vehicle and shield additional stuff.
Since he can`t be picked as target and the tank will block LOS most of the time anyway he should be safe.
And that 9" bubble is really good.
I don`t get all the negative oppinions on the KFF, was worth it`s point every time.
You can easy shield 1-2 blobs of boyz and some tanks.
Lets pretend all this is shooting at a t6 vehicle with 4+, some rough and terrible math;
-Devs with Plasma Cannon do 3.55556 Damage, double it (7)for overcharged weapons
-Same with the Hellblaster squad
-Predator does 3.55556 with just it's autocannon, this is without firing the heavy bolters. (+1)
-It took 3x3 heavy weapon teams to get around the same points as others, they did 8 Damage to target.
-the Leman Russ I didn't bother with math for, shouldn't have included it
-the Tau Broadside did 3.55556 before adding the smart missiles (.666667)
-Exocrine did 4 Damage
-Lootas did 5.92
As incomplete and bad as this is, a few things I notice;
-Devs are cheaper, have a better weapon, a better save, and did more damage, just from a little closer.
-Heavy weapon teams have nearly the same survivability and weapon profile as Lootas, except the better BS gives them more output for same points
-The others can't really compare because they are not enough like the devs, Lootas, Heavy Weapon teams.
In short, Lootas do less damage then Devs and HWTs. They make up for this with an increase in range vs devs, who also have a better save for cheaper. Lootas, should they end up in CC, would have more attacks then Devs. Lootas do less damage at range then HWTs, but are much better in CC.
Mathhammer in a vacuum->Lootas should be holding down the trigger while moving to help make their cost back in CC, it is the only way.
Tacticshammer-> If you have Lootas on the table you need a squad of Stormboyz to tie up any shooting unit that would outperform your Lootas.
FAST ATTACK: 674pts
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob BC)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob BC)
Results time.
So Game 1 I went against an Eldar Player who brought a fairly diverse list, Wraithguard, Scorpions, Eldrad, Khaine, Maug, Fire Dragons, Guardians, and a few other things. It was a complete rout. I hate Eldar and despised them all through 7th but now they are a complete pushover. I scored a Crushing victory, 16 to 0. We were only able to finish my 3rd turn because of how slow my list played but by that point he had the Fire prism about to be assaulted, Khaine and that was about it. What happened was Turn 1 I advanced all my units, had all my reserves pop and appear in front of him/behind him and assault him, almost all got in, I also had a Unit of 30 boyz "Da Jump" and successfully assaulted a unit of Snipers and his warlord in a ruins. My Stormboyz held down an entire flank for the first turn and by the end of the 2nd the game was basically over. Ghaz didn't even get into CC.
Game 2 I was against a Smurf player who was playing gunline with a bunch of tanks and primaris Marines backed up by Papasmurf, Standard bearer and a Apothocary to bring back dead models. This was the absolute closest game I have ever played, I had all my reserves appear turn 2 except 1 unit of Kommandos I kept in reserve to cap an objective at the end of the game, this was a mistake, I should have kept 3 units in reserve for this purpose but I was desperate to tie up some of his ranged dakka. Papa Smurf turned good dakka into ridiculous dakka, my opponent got first blood because I killed his model and the stupid standard Bearer trick killed my deff Kopta :( I was finally able to advance down the field enough to get Ghaz into CC and papa smurf swept in to challenge him, Ghaz and 15 Boyz with a Nob managed to kill papasmurf, he got back up just in time for my weirdboy to blast him with smite. Last turn I made my kommando unit appear and grab on objective, i held another objective with stormboyz and had 30+ models sitting on another objective that he was contesting with about 3 of his Marines.....guess what? New Space Marine rule is that he always caps objectives even if I am closer and more numerous then him because reasons. It went from a minor victory for me to a Tie :(
Game 3 was a slaughter, I went against a Chaos player who surrendered turn 3 after I had killed his heavy support and he had (Both of us actually) forgotten to deep strike his obliterators and terminators. Crushing Victory.
I finished 3rd overall in the tournament, 1st place went to Demon smite spam, 2nd place went to a Marine player of indeterminate chapter (I Honestly can't remember).
After action report:
Kommandos: are GREAT late game objective grabbers, In tournament play I intend to do that more often then bringing them in as distraction units. They absolutely suck in every other way though. They aren't numerous enough to really threaten anything, they lack any kind of durability, and aren't terribly reliable in getting into CC with that 9in charge.
Deff Koptas: only managed to drop 2 bombs in 3 games between 4 koptas, They drew fire like a FNG. Worse, with 4+ armor they tended to die a lot unless I hid them in cover and then they weren't doing there jobs. Also, I am convinced that Big shootas are the way to go right now with them, Rokkitz are better but not worth the points cost. I would have used KMBs but I didn't want to kill myself.
Boyz: Work horses again, literally took out wounds on Papa Smurf, Eldrad, Demon princes, I mean they literally have to do everything because they are our best unit
Stormboyz: Lackluster, they need a CC boost more then anything. I loved the increase in movement but I wish they had better CC abilities. 3 Primaris assault Marines wiped out a unit of 20 almost single handed. I can see where bringing more would be more beneficial but I can also see where they stink and need more staying power and more hitting power.
Ghaz: Beat stick. Buffed units, killed units, drew fire, kept boyz in the fight. God of War, he is an auto-include.
Mad Dok: I used him to great success healing my characters and ripping apart units that got to close to me. He earned his points back on 6+ FNPs but only because for the 1st turn or 2 he was surrounded by 90 boyz. If you aren't playing a horde spam then don't take a Dok.
Weirdboyz: Still amazing. Killed Papa Smurf, stripped wounds off units, buffed boyz. Auto-include
Big Mek with KFF: he did alright, utterly useless except as a giant mobile walking bubble. He may have earned his points back but again, only for the same reason as the Painboyz would have.
OVERALL: This list is competitive but so slow and boring to play. Constantly measuring and ensuring those boyz are in the buff zone became a massive annoyance. the only thing worse then my movement phase was the Smurfs shooting phase, rerolling literally everything.
Sounds like a painboy (in addition to Mad Doc) might have been more convenient than the KFF mek. In the tournament, were there any times where Mad Doc wanted to cover two units but couldn't?
ETA: You didn't seem to face any flyers. Maybe the koptas & stormboyz would have found more use against a flyer list?
Frozocrone wrote: I did not know that Space Marines can capture objectives just for being Space Marines.
Sounds like a bunch of BS your opponent made up just to not lose.
Good job all the same, sucks that the list was boring to play with.
Yep, new rule in the SM codex. Their infantry gain ObSec.
Also in regards to the flyer. My 1st opponent brought an eldar flyer...Stormboyz were useless against it. Want to know why? THEY CANT CATCH IT! Something I never thought about in planning lists against flyers, flyers are so fast that they basically zoom around the board ignoring your stormboyz.
Just ordered my first Orks off ebay, going for a bit fluffy mad max themed list (every ork has a vehicle to ride or drive)
To start I was going to do 2 battlewagons w/ 20 slugga boyz each, 2 trukks, one with 10 lootas/spannas and the other with 10 tankbustas, and a smattering of warbuggies, wartrakks, bikers. My first instinct is a boss and mek on bikes but I don't know how good the other units are (like weirdboy). I'm thinkin a dakkajet or burna bomber would make a nice finish.
I know I said fluffy, but I would still like win games here and there, and not off the enemy just having awful luck/no strategy. Is a list like mine even remotely viable? All I know this ed is that the tankbustas are supposed to be really good for their cost, and 30 boyz blobs are good too but the wagon only holds 20...
Finally, as a crons player, my eyes are glazing over at all the 5+ BS. Gun options barely seem worth taking other than the kombi flamer on the boss/mek/nobz
How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.
koooaei wrote: How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.
I use the brigade with BWs to group units. Orks are one of the few races that love 6 units of base troops, so why not?
Between Kommandos, Stormboyz and big/mek gunz it's easy to fill up the other slots.
I have been playtesting 3 squads of 5 Tank Bustas in a Battle Wagon with 5 bomb squigs. bonus for having small squads is you can shoot 3 squigs and throw 3 grenades in one turn if close enough. might seem like a small difference but it makes them very deadly.
I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. There seems to be a couple major options that come to mind -
Setup A - 235pts
Boss Zagstruk
3 Squads of 5 Stormboyz, each with a boss nob + big choppa
Setup 2 - 145pts
a Squad of 15 Stormboyz, with a boss nob + powerklaw
The reason I picked these particular options is because they put the same amount of bodies on the table (though the first includes a character as well). Option A is set up as small squads because of Zagstruk's ability to let them pass morale tests, so the small squads is more of an advantage. However, it is more expensive and not sure if it is worth it.
I'm not really sure if the Big Choppa or Powerklaw is more useful on stormboyz though. It is far too expensive on the 3 small units to take 3 powerklaws, and Zagstruk does already have power-feet...
Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?
Niiru wrote: I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz
I don't usually bother with less than 20 (unless padding Brigade slots), but after the last couple games I've had, I may not even bother with squads that small anymore. I need the bodies as screens or to play aggressively and I've been finding my 30 man squads to be around the ~10ish boy mark when I really need them and they can still put in some work at that size.
This is one of the few places I like PKs over BCs, but I wouldn't bother on a smaller squad, it'll just get shot to pieces.
Niiru wrote: I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?
I have been running mine as full 30 man squads. I have 2 squads so 60 and will start work on a 3rd. They have been performing well. Not as punchy as 20+ boys but they are very fast and still can kill stuff or tie it down till you get someone there to kill stuff.
I had a game with smaller units 15 5 and maybe a 30. The 15 was ignored mostly since there were bigger threats like the 30 man and other boys so it made it mostly intact but the five man did not do much at all. Tried to grab an objective then got plastered easily.
tl:dr bigger is better with them and redundancy means something should get there.
Niiru wrote: I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?
I have been running mine as full 30 man squads. I have 2 squads so 60 and will start work on a 3rd. They have been performing well. Not as punchy as 20+ boys but they are very fast and still can kill stuff or tie it down till you get someone there to kill stuff.
I had a game with smaller units 15 5 and maybe a 30. The 15 was ignored mostly since there were bigger threats like the 30 man and other boys so it made it mostly intact but the five man did not do much at all. Tried to grab an objective then got plastered easily.
tl:dr bigger is better with them and redundancy means something should get there.
I only have 45 Stormboyz, I am wondering how well they would do if I ran 90 or so in 3 big squads and then fielded tons of Kommandos like I did last tournament.
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?
In all 3 of my games I don't believe we made it past turn 3 because of how slow the army plays. And Keep in mind I was only running 174 Models (90 Boyz, 40 Stormboyz, 35 Kommandos, 4 Deff Koptas, Ghaz, Grotsnik, Weirdboy, Weirdboy, Big Mek) I don't think it would be a stretch for some armies to field significantly more then that by spamming boyz even more then I was.
On an unrelated note, I don't think horde is going to be viable in the near future. SMs especially are going to be excessively hard to beat once they start spamming Assault Cannons.
On another unrelated note, Kommandos need a buff. A 5 man squad of Kommandos with 2 Burnas has 3 pistol shots at range when they deep strike and that is it. When they assault they get 8 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2AP attacks and the Nob gets 4 S5 attacks. Either they need a buff to damage output or they need a buff to durability. If they came stock with a 4+ save or even a 5+ save that would significantly help them. Imagine deepstriking into cover and getting a 2+ save, it would drive enemies nuts, it would also give us more of a tactical advantage in using those units, no longer are they a Alpha strike/beta strike unit, they can also sit in cover near an enemy and then either draw fire or launch assaults elsewhere or get a more guaranteed assault.
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?
In all 3 of my games I don't believe we made it past turn 3 because of how slow the army plays. And Keep in mind I was only running 174 Models (90 Boyz, 40 Stormboyz, 35 Kommandos, 4 Deff Koptas, Ghaz, Grotsnik, Weirdboy, Weirdboy, Big Mek) I don't think it would be a stretch for some armies to field significantly more then that by spamming boyz even more then I was.
On an unrelated note, I don't think horde is going to be viable in the near future. SMs especially are going to be excessively hard to beat once they start spamming Assault Cannons.
On another unrelated note, Kommandos need a buff. A 5 man squad of Kommandos with 2 Burnas has 3 pistol shots at range when they deep strike and that is it. When they assault they get 8 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2AP attacks and the Nob gets 4 S5 attacks. Either they need a buff to damage output or they need a buff to durability. If they came stock with a 4+ save or even a 5+ save that would significantly help them. Imagine deepstriking into cover and getting a 2+ save, it would drive enemies nuts, it would also give us more of a tactical advantage in using those units, no longer are they a Alpha strike/beta strike unit, they can also sit in cover near an enemy and then either draw fire or launch assaults elsewhere or get a more guaranteed assault.
I feel that for a big part it is actually the inclusion of the KFF and the way that rule is worded that slows down an already slow army. My last two games I have played without meks, simply because of the annoyance of trying to keep every model within the bubble with dissimilar advance rolls and everything. One if my bigger hopes for the codex would be, that the KFF becomes a regular aura effect like, say, doks tools.
With regard to kommandos I feel that you either give them big shootas and deepstrike them into cover near an objective, or you deepstrike them out of cover and try to get them into CC. So you either waste their cover-bonus or their mandatory choppas that cannot be swapped for shootas. It is like they are trying to fill two different roles that cannot be combined.
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?
Exactly what I was about to ask. Haven't seen any tournaments so far that are ignoring the turn 3 restriction on reserves, so maybe its the latter?
I was thinking about making a pre-measured circle the size of a KFF plus Big Mek base. Maybe if it was up on legs and had strings with beads tied to the ends as weights it could work pretty well despite inconvenient terrain and models.
koooaei wrote: How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.
I usually get the Battailion and add a Spearhead, Vaguard, Outrider, Air Wing and/or Supreme Command detachment. Of course 12 CP is more awesome than 7-8 CP, but I think one can do with less if you just don't roll everything possible.
Is having additional 2 counter-attacks/moral auto-passes or 4 re-rolls really worth bringing units you wouldn't field otherwise?
For example, I feel that there are few fast attack choices worth bringing in a battlewagon army, as all of them are vulnerable against weapons that are not worth shooting at battlewagons, making the whole point of the battlewagon army moot. Lootaz or Dakkajets work a lot better, as they either stay far away from any assault cannons and bolters, or have enough hard to hit wounds to be bothered by single damage weapons. No amount of re-rolls would keep my koptaz, buggies or storm boyz alive long enough to make them as good as the same amount of points in lootaz or dakka jets.
I guess I could hide some storm boyz in battlewagons, but that defeats the whole point of bringing storm boyz in the first place, doesn't it?
In addition, I couldn't possibly field enough battlewagons to fit 6 troops in there, and mixing speeds has never been a good idea. I guess trukks need to get cheaper before this becomes an option again.
If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.
If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.
It's quite easy to field a decent brigade detachment actually. Ghaz plus 2 weirboyz are solid and you may want them anyway, 6x30 units of boyz are also solid, 3 min units of kommandos or some painboyz are effective as well, 3 single mek gunz as objective holders and 3 min units of stormboyz or single koptas to complete the detachment. You would still have a few spared points available.
I think 7 CP are enough though and bringing the battallion plus another +1 CP detachment is better, not only for the more freedom you have in list building but also to minimize the drops as going first is essential, especially for orks. I tipically go for the battallion + spearhead since I want 3 BWs and some objective holders mek gunz, 8 drops in total.
Even then unless some characters give bonus CP I don't think you'll see many ork lists with more than maybe 9. Taking choices just to fill slots creates a weaker list, which likely won't be overcome by strategems. So maybe if we get some points changes on units it would be doable to run a brigade, but right now a brigade seems to be wasting points filling up either fast or Heavy support or both. The bulk of that would be the 180 ork boyz + supporting characters. The rest of the list would be cheap min squads that don't contribute much. In addition many strategems may only work with certain units which if you are running a Brigade may mean you don't have those units, or enough of them to be worth while.
I think in general a battalion + 2 other detachments for 8 CP, or 2 Battalions + 1 other detachment , for 9 CP, will be better than a brigade for 12 CP. The advantage of the Brigade is only needing 3 HQ choices, over 4 or 5, but right now I'd rather have more weirdboyz in my list than bring buggies for the same cost. or 5 man storm boy squads.
Breng77 wrote: Even then unless some characters give bonus CP I don't think you'll see many ork lists with more than maybe 9. Taking choices just to fill slots creates a weaker list, which likely won't be overcome by strategems. So maybe if we get some points changes on units it would be doable to run a brigade, but right now a brigade seems to be wasting points filling up either fast or Heavy support or both. The bulk of that would be the 180 ork boyz + supporting characters. The rest of the list would be cheap min squads that don't contribute much. In addition many strategems may only work with certain units which if you are running a Brigade may mean you don't have those units, or enough of them to be worth while.
I think in general a battalion + 2 other detachments for 8 CP, or 2 Battalions + 1 other detachment , for 9 CP, will be better than a brigade for 12 CP. The advantage of the Brigade is only needing 3 HQ choices, over 4 or 5, but right now I'd rather have more weirdboyz in my list than bring buggies for the same cost. or 5 man storm boy squads.
I think what really kills it is the taxes we have to pay to get those CP compared to other factions. Take Space Marine for example, for 86pts they can take a 5 man unit of scouts with Sniper rifles and camo cloaks, position them in a ruin somewhere and they magically become 2+ save, character/elite infantry killing gold. Not the worlds best unit by any means, but compare that to Grots. We pay for grots whose sole purpose in the game is to sit on an objective and die. Yeah they are cheaper but they also don't contribute to the game until the end when, if still alive, they get us an objective.
Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.
Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.
As it stands they really are a tax unit that you are only taking because they are cheaper than an equally useless 10 boy squad.
The same is true with Fast and Heavy slots to an extent. Any really cheap choice is fairly useless and needs to be bigger to really have much of an impact.
Breng77 wrote: Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.
Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.
As it stands they really are a tax unit that you are only taking because they are cheaper than an equally useless 10 boy squad.
The same is true with Fast and Heavy slots to an extent. Any really cheap choice is fairly useless and needs to be bigger to really have much of an impact.
We need good ranged shooting and more short ranged crap dakka isn't going to help. Yeah it would make grots slightly more competitive but not even remotely as good as boyz or conscripts.
I really want Grots to either get a HUGE buff to stats or get rid of them entirely. We don't need more cheap infantry models to spam but we do need shooting.
The issue is where do you get ranged shooting from. I mean another option for me would be to allow for big guns to be added to got squads similar to heavy weapons teams for IG in the past. or eldar HW platforms. But giving them +1 T and slightly better shooting for their current price at least makes them worth a look at half the cost of boyz.
I really don't see how else you get much shooting, it would need to be more long range grot options otherwise crap BS always makes that shooting so so.
For what it's worth conscripts are too good at 3 points. With their current shooting and durability, but the change I propose for gretchin makes them better at shooting than conscripts at 12" (without orders).
I only have 45 Stormboyz, I am wondering how well they would do if I ran 90 or so in 3 big squads and then fielded tons of Kommandos like I did last tournament.
NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.
Ran 80 SB in my game on Saturday (2x 30man, 1x 20). The 30mans did fairly well, but I was rolling like ass for the Nobs. They were stuck in combat pretty much the entire game. Twin Asscans gave the 20man squad a bad time.
Tried out 4x min Kommando squads on Sunday (Only one 30man SB squad though) and they did surprisingly well, they even killed some stuff. I had run Zhad up a board edge alone to bust up a vehicle, then plopped down a Komm squad so that the nearby Hellblaster squad couldn't target him. 4th squad just came in T3 and sat on an objective which is fine, but 3 squads would probably have sufficed.
I;m looking at coming up with a mek list, with dreads and tanks and such, and I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about killa kanz vs grot tanks?
My list at the moment would have a couple of dreads with skorchas and CCWs, some boyz and stormboyz, and I'm considering a kill tank with gigabursta (not sure on this yet though.
So I could add one of the following:
Killa Kanz x6 with 6 Rokkit Launchas (378pts)
Grot Tanks x6 with 7 rokkit launchas (commander has 2) (264pts)
I figured these were the best places for rokkits due to the extra BS, and the grot tanks proved slightly more dakka for the points (though they have less wounds etc, but I could buff the unit up to 8 tanks and still be cheaper).
What do you guys think?
Alternatively, I could go for smaller units and mix a bit...
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Grot Tanks x4 + 5 Rokkit launchas (180pts)
Total = 363pts.
This gives a mix, and the kanz going solo means less problems with morale losing models and incoming damage overflow.
Niiru wrote: I;m looking at coming up with a mek list, with dreads and tanks and such, and I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about killa kanz vs grot tanks?
My list at the moment would have a couple of dreads with skorchas and CCWs, some boyz and stormboyz, and I'm considering a kill tank with gigabursta (not sure on this yet though.
So I could add one of the following:
Killa Kanz x6 with 6 Rokkit Launchas (378pts)
Grot Tanks x6 with 7 rokkit launchas (commander has 2) (264pts)
I figured these were the best places for rokkits due to the extra BS, and the grot tanks proved slightly more dakka for the points (though they have less wounds etc, but I could buff the unit up to 8 tanks and still be cheaper).
What do you guys think?
Alternatively, I could go for smaller units and mix a bit...
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Grot Tanks x4 + 5 Rokkit launchas (180pts)
Total = 363pts.
This gives a mix, and the kanz going solo means less problems with morale losing models and incoming damage overflow.
So i've been doing the same thinking (in fact I have a very similar list - just building my killtank).
All of the following is just my opinion, so take it as that If your going to run a 6 man killa kanz unit I would opt to put a mix of weapons on them. 6x rokkits is only netting you an average of 3 hits a turn at quite an expensive shooting platform. Not to mention its 2 hits a turn if your advancing (which, considering these are your only real CC orientated units you probably will be). I am giving my 6 2x skorcha, 2x rokkit, 2x kmb. The reasons for the KMBs are that they are cheap, but still provide the same profile as the rokkit, you can then elect to put wounds onto the KMB kanz first. I intend to have my Big Mek or some meks sitting with the kanz in order to heal up wounds. The skorchas are there because you can still advance and fire for D6 autohits. also, gives charge protection and after your KMB kanz have died you can then elect between the rokkit and skorcha kanz dependent on what the opponent still has on the table.
As for Grot tanks. You have to have a Big Mek to field them (just an FYI as you hadn't stated HQ choices.) They have the gretchin keyword, so a runtherd with the lash allows them re-rolls of 1's in fight phase. (if you manage to make use of that why god damn killa kanz dont have gretchin keyword I dont know...) Grot tanks are better for rokkits imo, I am running mine with KMB's, but thats just because I want to save points. I am unsure whether the commanda has to take 2 different weapons. As it states Grot tanks may choose one of the following, commanda's may choose 2; ( are something along those lines).
So if anyone can clarify if that means we can double stack the same?
The 2D6 movement could be very effective for getting some long assaults off, as technically you could get a 12" move and then a long charge, so personally I feel like you need to make use of their melee profile to maximise their potential, but I need to test that. Could be useful to tie up a unit while the kanz get there. Banner nob gives all of them the +1 to hit rolls. So if you manage to get into CC with a banner nob and a lash runt nearby they make 9 attacks at Str 4 that hits on 5's with re-rolls of 1s. which is still pretty sucky, but at least they are T5 with 4 Wounds, so as long as its not a CC unit they should be able to hold well.
Grot tanks main issue is the min squad of 4, with LD5. Meaning if you lose 1 tank you are looking at morale losses. A warboss nearby can inflict d3 mortal wounds to autopass, but that could be pretty brutal considering they are only 4 wounds. Killtank looks amazing (imo), I plan on using mine to get Ghaz and 2 units of kommandos into the fray. With a banner nob. The melee profile is awesome, getting like 8 attacks at Str 10, and D3 mortals on the charge, str8 on folliowing turns. Give it some skorchas, or put the kommandos inside for 4D3 autohits. Banner nob also buff the killtank. and finally what I feel is its best attribute, is that its WS3, so WS2 with banner and when it loses wounds, it doesn't lose str or attacks like the morka/gorka/meka dreds... meaning that its still WS3 with banner when on half wounds with 8 attacks at Str 10/8. Basically, its a bit of a beatstick imo. Im going to use mine to charge smaller units to inflict maximum damage and hope to wipe them on their phase. as that way you mitigate the falling back cant shoot stuff.
Deffdreads still seem very expensive. Personally i'd take more kanz.
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On another note;
is there any consensus on warbikes vs nob bikers?
the 3W on the nob bikers seems to pair nicely with the painboy on bike, as you can take a 2 damage hit which the warbikes cant. They also have the keepin' order ability and you can equip 2-3 with BC's and Kombi skorchas for some nice dakka output. Then keep a couple barebones for taking wounds and healing up with the painboy?
May be quite pricey, but seems dead killy compared to warbikers. Thoughts? I have like 6 bikes I almost finished and I could easily turn into nob bikers.
If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.
It's quite easy to field a decent brigade detachment actually. Ghaz plus 2 weirboyz are solid and you may want them anyway, 6x30 units of boyz are also solid, 3 min units of kommandos or some painboyz are effective as well, 3 single mek gunz as objective holders and 3 min units of stormboyz or single koptas to complete the detachment. You would still have a few spared points available.
Sure, but I was trying to say that this approach does not work for battlewagon bash, dread mobs, biker armies and other ork archetypes. Especially considering that GW allows you to field some armies without any troop tax now.
I think 7 CP are enough though and bringing the battallion plus another +1 CP detachment is better, not only for the more freedom you have in list building but also to minimize the drops as going first is essential, especially for orks. I tipically go for the battallion + spearhead since I want 3 BWs and some objective holders mek gunz, 8 drops in total.
Same for me, 3 BW + KFF mek spearhead is pretty much an auto-include in any battlewagon army for +1 CP.
koooaei wrote:We're gona have a lot more strategems to play around in the codex.
I don't think that it's too much to assume that most our stratagems will be centered around charging or fighting, which is where we are already using our points. Is somehow doubt that there will be stratagem that is good enough to include 200 points of useless units.
Breng77 wrote:Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.
Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.
That would just make them shoota boyz though. I think a better solution would be giving them some sort of heavy weapon, turning them into something similar to tactical squads or eldar guardians.
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.
Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.
Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.
Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.
I would be fine with that I think for points fixing you wouldn't need to do really anything. Just treat the gun like the Eldar HW platform where it's statline is mostly the same as the grots (better save, different WS, extra wounds, but same T), then make the platform 2 points + gun. Especially with Grot BS bonus, having say 3 kannons for 17 points each, with BS3+ would be pretty good.
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.
Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?
I want grots at T3, but I'd be fine with T2 guns if they have 30 ablative wounds.
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.
Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.
I would be fine with that I think for points fixing you wouldn't need to do really anything. Just treat the gun like the Eldar HW platform where it's statline is mostly the same as the grots (better save, different WS, extra wounds, but same T), then make the platform 2 points + gun. Especially with Grot BS bonus, having say 3 kannons for 17 points each, with BS3+ would be pretty good.
Breng77 wrote: Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.
Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?
I want grots at T3, but I'd be fine with T2 guns if they have 30 ablative wounds.
This right here is perfect.
On an unrelated note, I think until our codex gets released I am going to put my Deff Koptas on the shelf as well. That means I have officially retired my Koptas, Warbikes, Kanz, Dreadz, Morkanaut, Lootas, Meganobz and Mek Gunz/Big Gunz.
On the plus side, I do think that with those saved points in my competitive list (240ish) I can field another Boyz blob and then reinforce my Kommandos with another squad. This will be the worlds slowest list to play and GW is solely to blame for making that our only useful strategy with our lists. That will bring my list to 120 Boyz in 4 Mobs, 40 Kommandos in 8 mobs (nob and 2 burnas per mob) 2 Stormboy Mobs of 20 Models each and then a smattering of HQ choices like Ghaz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik and a KFF Big Mek.
This actually might make me stop playing my army if we don't get a new codex soon. solo competitive builds become very boring very quickly. And ironically this list is extremely weak vs Girlyman lists or IG Conscript lists.
I've been trying some off lists for competitive games. My last go was
Vanguard
Ghaz
3 Killsaw MANZ 3 x 5 Kommandos w/ 2 burnas
2 x 10 Gretchin
Spearhead
Big mek on bike with KFF Gorkanaut
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla and ard case
2 Deffdreads w 2 xskorchas
Supreme Command
MA warboss
4 x Weirdboy
Pain boy
I won vs Razorback spam marines with this list, but it was not a super optimized list (no Girlyman or conscripts)
My findings having played this list were as follows
-Grots are terrible for basically anything other than a cheap troop to sit an objective out of LOS.
- Deff dreads are ok but too slow to be really good, they need to be able to advance and charge to be really any good, or have a faster move
- Kommandos are a great distraction/objective unit. In cover they are surprisingly durable, and they can play a lot of tricks. Burnas are meh, but free so I take them.
- T8 is a big deal over T7. Getting wounded on 6s by most small arms fire, and 5s by most other weapons is huge (4s on missiles is big as well. My Gorkanaut was a hero this game as he has decent shooting, and is great in CC.
- Ghaz is way better than a regular warboss against most things, but the Warboss is still decent, and advance and charge adds a lot.
-Weirdboyz are amazing, Da jump and smite are both great powers, Warpath is ok, I wish head banger was target model, without that it is worthless. I'm really looking forward to 3 more powers in our codex
-Painboy is probably only worth it if you are running blobs or big squads of multi-wound models. I thought he would heal up my ICs but I was too spread out for that really to happen.
-Big mek is good, but I like being able to spread out and that limits his effect.
-Manz are good against vehicles.
So base on this I am looking at going with
Vanguard
Ghaz
25 Boyz + Boss nob
10 Gretchin
3 Killsaw MANZ 3 x 5 Kommandos w/ 2 burnas
Spearhead
Big mek on bike KFF Big Mek Kff 2 x Gorkanaut
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla and ard case
Supreme Command
3 x Weirdboy
My thoughts are that this will provide more T8 for my opponent to deal with. 2 Meks will let me spread out a bit and be able to fix 2 vehicles per turn. The addition of boyz gives me another da jump option if my opponent has a screening unit of infantry.
koooaei wrote:We're gona have a lot more strategems to play around in the codex.
I don't think that it's too much to assume that most our stratagems will be centered around charging or fighting, which is where we are already using our points. Is somehow doubt that there will be stratagem that is good enough to include 200 points of useless units.
Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.
How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?
Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.
How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?
If I want them to they have been making combat. The battlewagon/gorkanaut helps with this for the warbosses (which are all I really want in combat), 1 Turn of battlewagon move + advance ~15" then Ghaz disembark + Move + advance is about 11". So that is 26" + 2D6 charge. Da Jump also helps. My list isn't really concerned with chaining buffs as much given I don't have many boyz. My boyz will often wait until Ghaz is up front, then weirboyz will jump them forward so they get the buff. Then both charge.
In an all foot list I think it is harder to get characters into combat, unless you go all storm boyz, and use da jump on a character.
Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.
How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?
If I want them to they have been making combat. The battlewagon/gorkanaut helps with this for the warbosses (which are all I really want in combat), 1 Turn of battlewagon move + advance ~15" then Ghaz disembark + Move + advance is about 11". So that is 26" + 2D6 charge. Da Jump also helps. My list isn't really concerned with chaining buffs as much given I don't have many boyz. My boyz will often wait until Ghaz is up front, then weirboyz will jump them forward so they get the buff. Then both charge.
In an all foot list I think it is harder to get characters into combat, unless you go all storm boyz, and use da jump on a character.
I did have some trouble getting my Warboss into combat the last time I played. I put him behind my footlsogging boyz, so he wouldn't get shot, but this meant they could charge when he couldn't. Then, between pile-ins and consolidations they ended up leaving him in the dust. I did try to use Da Jump on him as he sadly shuffled by my Weird Boy, but that got denied and then he got shot off the board. Not much glory in that game for my poor Warboss.
It's been less of an issue for guys on bikes (which my bosses almost always are) and for Meks I don't really care since they're not a big combat force.
Even so, unless it would leave my warlord in a position to be shot up, I'm going for the charge even if it leaves a character behind. I want boyz in combat, where it's safe.
Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.
How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?
It depends on the characters. Big meks for example are there mostly to give an invuln and come with a S4 AP0 melee weapon which makes them pretty bad in close combat; I tipycally use a biker mek only for the KFF and his shooting, which is something little but still something. Weirdboyz are a bit better in close combat and they may get into assault but even if they stay out of combat they should make their points back. However painboyz come with a stock power klaw and they usually buff hordes of boyz that screen them which means you want them charge with the boyz. Warbosses/ghaz should assault as well since they're the best ork fighters and they usually do.
Among all characters I'd keep out of combat the big meks and the weirdboyz, but if you have tons of bodies that are going to charge, you can let this characters join the party as well.
Yeh, problem is I have one normal deff dread and one kustom-built deff dread that I made, and I'd really prefer to use them in lists :(
I also have 6 killa kans, 3 of which can be transformed into grot tanks.
Then go for it! I have the same. most of my models are conversions, so I feel i must play them, else I wasted a hell of a lot of time! Maybe grab a couple meks to give yourself lots of vehicle repair ability?
I almost made my kanz able to become grot tankz, but I realised I wanted them in the same lists, so I ended up just making a separate squad of each.
As for IC's, yeh I agree about the types of ones who want to be in combat, but I also feel like giving a BM on bike a BC could be worth it. he's mobile enough and with the added Str should hopefully dish out some pain. how have you found IC's survivability then? I feel like that maybe about mid game, it could be worthwhile for painboys and the big meks to start getting into combats to soften stuff up, rather than sitting back buffing a far more dwindled force. But I dunno. im running a BM on bike with BC in my next game, so il see how it goes.
A few days ago, I actually got to shoot with a full 30man shoota boy squad for the first time in recent memory..even if it was against an Ironclad
I usually mix squads, but didn't have my slugga boyz handy at the time. My movement trays are in groups of 10, so it'll be 10 of one 20 of the other, depending on my mood.
Nym wrote: Just one question : Slugga boyz or Shoota boyz ?
I have tons of Shoota but after a few games, it seems to me Sluggas would fair better since I almost always Advance...
Thoughts ?
It depends on your use, if you are just running and assaulting then sluggas are the choice. Split squads can do well for flexibility. Shootas are decent for using da jump if you don't want to risk a charge, you could deepstrike into cover and shoot.
Mek with SAG Warboss in MA Wyrdboy w. da jump
2 x 30 Boys, each w. 3 rokkits & clawnob
10 Shootaboys
Dok
Banner Nob
5 Tankbustas w. rokkits
5 suicide Tankbustas, 2 hammer, 1 pistol, 1 clawnob
Battlewagon w. 2 rokkits, 2 BS, Zzapgun
9 Lootas
2 x 5 Flash gits, footsloggas w. 5 ammo runts
Played relict with the marker on a huge bridge in the middle of the battlefield, which ran over a river (crater) and some ruins around.
I chose hammer and anvil with the Nids going first.
Put the 2 x Tankbustas, Warboss and 5 Flash Gits in my BW, shooty stuff in ruins, boys in front. Banner and Dok buffed both mobs from the stairs of the bridge, shootas and flash gits held my side of the bridge.
Spoiler:
Turn 1 Nids: My deployment blocked my backfield, so Trygon, shooty warriors, Cyte and Tyrant arrived in front of my left flank. The rest moved slowly towards me and killed some boys and 4 of the Flash gits ammo runts.
Turn 2 Orks: BW drove to the left flank and gunned down the Tyrant with help of his passengers. 30 boys charged shooty warriors and Trygon, wounded him and killed 1 or 2 warriors :(Other mob jumped and killed the 30 Termas and 2 CC warriors. My gunline weakened Cyte & Trygon.
Turn 2 Nids: Raveners appeared, and killed the jump boys with fire support of Tervi & Cyte after a 11" charge - ouch. Tervi lured near the relic and Flyrant landed on the bridge, killed the shootas with some fire support.
Turn 2 Orks: Wyrdboy tried to jump the other mob boys and got blocked. Suicide Squad disembarked and killed the Trygon, gunline almost gunned down flyrant and left some LP for the warboss, but he failed his charge. Basicly he failed all charges from turn 2-6. So the dok and Flash gits killed the Flyrant in CC for him. Killed 1-2 raveners in shooting and the Cyte survived the shooting with 2 LP.
Turn 3 Nids: Raveners killed the suicide squad, and most of the other mob, Hormas reached the bridge and got in range for the relic with the last standing warrior. Hive guards killed some Flash gits, Tervi, Cyte and Dakkafex again did some wounds on some of my stuff, nothing drastic.
Turn 3 Orks: A lot of firepower still alive, looked good. Then came the dices.^^ Warboss failed to charge the Dakkafex. Did the same 3 times in a row and got slowly killed by overwatch. Wyrdboy smited the warrior who was gunned down after. Gunline killed 2-3 ravener, the Cyte and some Hormas.
At this moment the nids had 1 Tervi, 3 hive guard, 1 Ravener, 1 Dakkafex and some Hormas. I had still everything but the boys and my suicide squad.
Turn 4 Nids: Tervi and Hive Guard gunned down the Dok, Dakkafex killed some Flash Gits, Raveners played hide and seek behind the SAG Meks ruin. Hormas grabbed the relic and started running away. Tervi wounded BW in CC.
Turn 4 Orks: Tankbustas disembarked and killed all but 1 ravener, weakened him in CC. Flash gits disembarked, jumped on the nids bridge stairs and killed 1 hiveguard + blocked the Hormas way. Failed to charge though. WB failed to charge the Dakkafex, rest of my gunline weakened the Tervi and killed most of the Hormas. Bad rolling but still looked ok. BW fell back and blocked the BW from my Wyrdboy.
Turn 5 Nids: Since WB failed his charge the banner got gunned down, Hormas and Fex moved towards the Flash Gits and killed 2-3. Ravener killed the last Tankbustas in CC. Tervi and Hive Guard did some shooting / smiting on steroids and killed my Battlewaggon.
Turn 5 Orks: Tight game, still manageable. Sadly my poor rolling continued, WB failed to charge again. Wyrdboy jumped the lootas in front of Hive Guard and Hormas. Poor shooting but killed all Hormas in CC. Mek had no LOS and killed the ravener in CC too. Last standing shoota did nothing in shooting and failed to charge as well.
Turn 6 Nids: Hive Guard grabbed the relic with Tervi and Dakkafex gunning down the last flash git and most of the lootas.
Turn 6 Orks: SAG Mek got jumped in the back of the Guards, did 1 or 2 wounds with shooting and CC. WB - you guess it. Lootas failed to shoot or charge the Guards.
Turn 7 Nids: Lootas and Mek got gunned down.
Turn 7 Orks: Wyrdboy jumped in front of the Guard. WB got finally killed in overwatch and game ended with about 2 or 3 nids holding the relic.
Fazit: Close game, some bad luck towards the end but still a very fun game. Totally forgot about Guncrazy Showoffs & the BW Zzapgun the whole game...
Performance Fazit:
Wyrdboy: MVP. Just got denied once and got all the stuff where it was needed. Without the other units rolling he would have safed the day towards the end. Good option to jump Flash Gits / lootas that have to move anaway.
SAG: Did a lot damage, with the D6 results 6,5,4,3,4,6 - wounded a lot of the big stuff, killed a ravener in CC and almost killed a HG towards the end.
Warboss: Well, buffed 2 units in turn 1-2 which got Trygon and warriors killed. Otherwise had very bad luck and did not see 1 CC in 6 attempts.^^
Dok: Did not really much with the boys jumping, so he sticked with the Flash gits and killed off the Flyrant.
Banner: Did what it should do, but for 2-3 CC`s with 1 mob not sure if i shouldn`t switch it with some Mek guns for more Dakka.
Boys: Jumped, killed a lot of stuff and got my gunline the time to shoot down the bad stuff. Good job, but the Raveners ruffed them up.
Battlewagon + Tankbustas + Flash Gits: Did most of my damage and killed 2-3 big bugs, Raveners, warriors and some small stuff. Almost tempted to bring 2 of them but i really don`t know what to cut down.
Especially when i missed Gorkanaut and Guns.
Lootas: Proofed well as good allrounders towards the end. Enough to kill small stuff with shooting and other stuff in CC when it`s all about the objektive.
Still working with my dakka lists. Maybe switch the WB for Bike KFF Mek again. Gorkanaut takes a lot points in 1850, 2000 points the list works better.
Without Brigade detachment in 2000 points i`ll leave the banner / dok for some extra shooting next time.
Yeah, if someone can explain to me how a warboss is critical just because you can run 3 inches and assault but a weirdboy that can land a 30 min 9 inches away from whatever needs to die isn't, I would appreciate the explanation.
The weirdboyz are the only thing that look like a no brainer, but it does seem like they would split up your mobs from the buff sticks, making it a one or the other type deal...
Why not use the points being spent on a banner nob/painboy/mek on another boys mob/weirdboyz? Boys with 120 3+S4 attacks plus pistol shots seem sufficient without buffs...they can literally wound anything just from volume of attacks...biggest issue in my mind is how to get them to the other side of the board in one piece, and the buffstick chars cannot compare to a deepstrike bit, can they?
The warboss aura helps a lot units in the same turn and works automaticly all the time.
The more units he supports the better - a must have in green tide lists.
Warboss on Bike is a solid option to get Waaagh where you need it. Gives your boys the speed to close the gap.
Plus some morale boost when it gets bloody.
You can just jump 1 unit per turn with Wyrdboys- if he gets not blocked and you still need to make that 9" charge.
Jump one mob and let the warboss support the others, they go pretty well hand in hand.
Banner / Dok are still good if you can`t get all your stuff in CC range or have to less space for all models.
Allthough the Wyrdboy is a great model he can`t do all the work.
Warbosses dont feel AS mandatory as they did in 7th but still not fielding one feels like a waste.
Least the boyz can function without one now, even if its clearly way better to have one near them
I hated how previously Boyz just failed everything if the Boss wasnt attached to that unit (or painboy).
Does anyone find any value in a WAAAGH! banner anymore? Since we hit on 3s normally (save for PKs) it kinda feels like it isnt that valuable to me. I could just be stupid lucky and not seeing why its actually valuable lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Warbosses dont feel AS mandatory as they did in 7th but still not fielding one feels like a waste.
Least the boyz can function without one now, even if its clearly way better to have one near them
I hated how previously Boyz just failed everything if the Boss wasnt attached to that unit (or painboy).
Does anyone find any value in a WAAAGH! banner anymore? Since we hit on 3s normally (save for PKs) it kinda feels like it isnt that valuable to me. I could just be stupid lucky and not seeing why its actually valuable lol
WAAAGH! Banners seem huge to me, especially since i typically take PK's on my boyz squads and mitigating that -1 to hit is really important to make them more reliable in doing more than a single D3 damage against bigger targets. Also, given that we don't have re-roll options via buffs or psychic powers in CC, the +1 hit is the best we're going to get and hitting on 2's really makes a world of difference when you've already taken some casualties for boyz units. The consistency makes it so that it is that much less likely for your round of combat with the boyz to whiff.
They're also basically mandatory for any Meganob unit to have optimal effectiveness.
Touche, i actually havnt used MANz in 8th except in a smaller tutorial-type game with a friend that recently got into the game. Been having too much fun with walkers lol, finally getting use out of my kanz and deffs is amazing. (i have 6 Kanz and 4 Deffdreads lol) The ability to do the old school "wound shenanigans" makes me wonder if its worth having a larger than 3man MANz squad now. Or for that matter since vehicles dont have a unit limitation, just 2 squads in the same trukk/wagon lol
Ended up doing nothing. I might try it again with a Weirdboy. I ended up daisy chaining my Boyz to it. I think I would have just preferred more Boyz in combat.
Not tried Means. One Killsaw and Power Klaws seems like the ideal tankhunter unit at a glance. Hopefully Klaws go down in price.
I've used a banner nob a couple times and now i lean towards not taking him at all. Sure, hitting on 2 and 3 is not bad but it's a niche thing. It's often either not needed or not enough. See, a banner nob is quite expensive. And he only adds to mellee damage output. Whereas i often find myself wanting more bodies or more pks. Maybe the overall effectiveness increase will pay off in games vs tough not very damaging opponents. But i prefer the versatility of numbers. If you want more effective boyz, get more boyz. If you want more effective pks, get a boss.
Vineheart01 wrote: Touche, i actually havnt used MANz in 8th except in a smaller tutorial-type game with a friend that recently got into the game. Been having too much fun with walkers lol, finally getting use out of my kanz and deffs is amazing. (i have 6 Kanz and 4 Deffdreads lol)
The ability to do the old school "wound shenanigans" makes me wonder if its worth having a larger than 3man MANz squad now. Or for that matter since vehicles dont have a unit limitation, just 2 squads in the same trukk/wagon lol
what wound shenaniganz? do we have wound shenanigans again?
I can only thinkg of kmb wounding the bearer and thus providing multiple wounded models to pick from. Or some psy magic that wounded a models and not a unit.
koooaei wrote: I've used a banner nob a couple times and now i lean towards not taking him at all. Sure, hitting on 2 and 3 is not bad but it's a niche thinkg. It's often either not needs or not enough. See, a banner nob is quite expensive. And he only adds to mellee damage output. Whereas i often find myself wanting more bodies or more pks. Maybe the overall effective will pay off in games vs tough not very damaging opponents. But i prefer the versatility of numbers. Of you wanting more effective boyz, get more boyz. Of you wanting more effective pk, get a boss.
I'll consider banner nob is he was 50 pts.
I agree with not taking the bannernob. If I were using walkers or meganobz I would probably bring him. If he could be put on a warbike I migh also consider him.
I've also stopped taking him, he is nice to have but very expensive and he reduces some flexibility in your army. As for MANZ, I'm not even convinced he is worth it for them unless you are looking at a max sized unit, and maybe not even then, because for use it means they need to be delivered in a transport. I look at it this way if you have 3 saw manz they get 12 attacks, normally they hit 6 times, with the banner they would hit 8, for 16 points less than the banner I can add a 4th man, which has the same effect and adds durability to the squad. Now adding that banner to a 4 man squad with 16 attacks means 10.33 hits, but again I can add another man to get much the same effect, more durability and more upside for good rolling. At this point his addition makes a bit of sense because at 5 models he will produce 13.33 hits vs 12 for adding the 6th man, but even that is debatable.
Breng77 wrote: I've also stopped taking him, he is nice to have but very expensive and he reduces some flexibility in your army. As for MANZ, I'm not even convinced he is worth it for them unless you are looking at a max sized unit, and maybe not even then, because for use it means they need to be delivered in a transport. I look at it this way if you have 3 saw manz they get 12 attacks, normally they hit 6 times, with the banner they would hit 8, for 16 points less than the banner I can add a 4th man, which has the same effect and adds durability to the squad. Now adding that banner to a 4 man squad with 16 attacks means 10.33 hits, but again I can add another man to get much the same effect, more durability and more upside for good rolling. At this point his addition makes a bit of sense because at 5 models he will produce 13.33 hits vs 12 for adding the 6th man, but even that is debatable.
Yes, but if you are going to use MANZ then they will be in a transport, probably with some other characters or some Nobz, or a min-squad of Boyz. And then I think he is worth it. I have found, that the problem with the bannernob when running a green tide, is that you often end up needing to congaline in order to use him on your second turn, when he is most important. It is the exact same reason that I think many Ork players are taking warbosses on bikes these days. I would love for the bannernob and Weirdboy to get a warbike option. Or a jumppack option.
Got a message that Ork Deff Dreads are not available for trade partners anymore. Repackaging to include the 8th edition datasheet or a new kit incoming? Or are GW slowly phasing out 3rd party retailers?
Not a tactic post but didn't want to start a new thread for this piece of information.
Breng77 wrote: I've also stopped taking him, he is nice to have but very expensive and he reduces some flexibility in your army. As for MANZ, I'm not even convinced he is worth it for them unless you are looking at a max sized unit, and maybe not even then, because for use it means they need to be delivered in a transport. I look at it this way if you have 3 saw manz they get 12 attacks, normally they hit 6 times, with the banner they would hit 8, for 16 points less than the banner I can add a 4th man, which has the same effect and adds durability to the squad. Now adding that banner to a 4 man squad with 16 attacks means 10.33 hits, but again I can add another man to get much the same effect, more durability and more upside for good rolling. At this point his addition makes a bit of sense because at 5 models he will produce 13.33 hits vs 12 for adding the 6th man, but even that is debatable.
Yes, but if you are going to use MANZ then they will be in a transport, probably with some other characters or some Nobz, or a min-squad of Boyz. And then I think he is worth it. I have found, that the problem with the bannernob when running a green tide, is that you often end up needing to congaline in order to use him on your second turn, when he is most important. It is the exact same reason that I think many Ork players are taking warbosses on bikes these days. I would love for the bannernob and Weirdboy to get a warbike option. Or a jumppack option.
Meh, even for MANZ I find I often deliver mine using Da Jump. If your plan is to only ever use their transport, then I've found that transport often dies fast (especially if it has MANZ, Banner, other characters, boyz), then they are walking and they are terrible for conga lining to the buff, if they make a long charge and the banner does not, they lose the buff, or lose a lot of effectiveness.
Like I said so far unless I'm taking 5+ MANZ I don't find him very worth running, he is too slow, for minimal benefit.
Breng77 wrote: I've also stopped taking him, he is nice to have but very expensive and he reduces some flexibility in your army. As for MANZ, I'm not even convinced he is worth it for them unless you are looking at a max sized unit, and maybe not even then, because for use it means they need to be delivered in a transport. I look at it this way if you have 3 saw manz they get 12 attacks, normally they hit 6 times, with the banner they would hit 8, for 16 points less than the banner I can add a 4th man, which has the same effect and adds durability to the squad. Now adding that banner to a 4 man squad with 16 attacks means 10.33 hits, but again I can add another man to get much the same effect, more durability and more upside for good rolling. At this point his addition makes a bit of sense because at 5 models he will produce 13.33 hits vs 12 for adding the 6th man, but even that is debatable.
Yes, but if you are going to use MANZ then they will be in a transport, probably with some other characters or some Nobz, or a min-squad of Boyz. And then I think he is worth it. I have found, that the problem with the bannernob when running a green tide, is that you often end up needing to congaline in order to use him on your second turn, when he is most important. It is the exact same reason that I think many Ork players are taking warbosses on bikes these days. I would love for the bannernob and Weirdboy to get a warbike option. Or a jumppack option.
Yeh often it seems that the conga line also sorta gimps the flexability as it seems to make the ork players focus on trying to get the buffs rather than simply getting where they need to be. It can make you rather obvious with your target selection too, so coupled with the fallback rules, a competent player will just give you a road bump. Great, you charged it with a crazy move,advance, charge with a conga to get a +1 to hit and a 6+FNP. But the likelihood is that if its a shooting unit your probably going to annihilate it anyway. the +1 to hit wasn't needed and in the subsequent shooting round the 6+ FNP isn't going to make too much of a difference. Not to mention, that in order to stay as close as possible for the next charge, you still need the conga line, so you cant take the boyz at the back (else you lose the FNP and the banner buff), and if you take them from the mid pack you then have a smaller number that will actually make it into combat. Painboy on bike certainly helps/ same with warboss. But bannernob is starting to seem like a double edged sword.
On the WAAAGH Banner question. I have used it in every game and it works fine for me. MANZ is a good choice for the buff but so far I've used it with boys mobs 20 to 30 strong as well as to buff a few Big choppa Nobz and a battle wagon. Regarding the battle wagon, I misplayed it that time and didn't correctly understand the Deffrolla.
It's been important to have the WAAAGH Banner Nob as part of my plan. I've put him in a trukk and later once combat was ongoing piled him and the other small units out, they charge he moves to cover all the combat units but doesn't charge.
This was turn two or three but by that time my model mass had been reduced so buffing the remaining fighters improved thing for me. That, along with the newly charging units. so I was able to save more boys and hurt the other players options as far as where his models where and who they could fight. Again that was my plan from the start.
In other games he's just wondered around until a fight broke out and gone off to watch. Thankfully he wasn't too far away those times. If he could get a Warbike....hahaha if only.
It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.
koooaei wrote: It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.
Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.
koooaei wrote: It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.
Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.
That is true, it is one of the reasons I like the KFF more for vehicles than hordes. Needing to keep whole squads under the bubble is very restrictive.
Is anyone else slightly annoyed that everyone gets all these Fething reroll mechanics and we as a CC army get +1WS. Would it have been too much to ask for the Waaagh Banner to let us reroll failed wound rolls?
What are people's thoughts about fielding an all-in-your-face-turn-1 list with meka dreads and stormboyz?
Stormboyz seem to be a really strong (and versatile) unit, which is supported by their performance at BAO. And they have a threat range of 12+3d6", with the option of re-rolling charges.
And then meka dreads seem to be our best-costed dreadnought option. And they have the option of taking mega-chargas, which gives them a 16+2d6" threat range, with the option of re-rolling charges.
The core of the list that I've been tinkering around with looks like this:
Stormboyz, Stormboy Nobs w/ PKs (many)
Meka-dreads with Mega Charga, Rippa Klaw, and Rattler Kannon (3+)
Zhadsnark (1)
Ork Big Mek on Bike with Kustom Forcefield (2)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (1)
Boss Nob with Waaagh Banner (1)
The general strategy is to either go balls-to-the-wall aiming for a first-turn charge with as many units as possible (if your opponent happens to deploy close), or holding off on using the mega-chargas until turn 2 to all-but-guarantee that your meka-dreads reach close combat alongside (hopefully) Zhad and the stormboyz. Big Meks on Bikes are there to provide your army with a little bit of hardiness via KFFs and then also to hang out near the dreads once they reach combat to perform repairs. I think they're better platforms for the KFF than the dreads because (1) they're characters, and thus can't be shot at under most circumstances, and (2) equipping them with the KFF frees up your dreads to take chargas. Weirdboy is mainly there to "jump" the boss nob into range of all of your units once they hit the enemy lines, making everyone hit on 2s (although I suppose he could also jump zhad or units of stormboyz if needed).
Then, as far as additions go, I was trying to decide between:
(1) Kommandos (and maybe Snikrot?), for objective-grabbing and possible assaults out of deepstrike at the same time everything else hits the enemy lines
(2) Dakkajets or Lootas, for turn 1 supporting dakka
(3) Mob of 30 ork boyz (incl. nob w/ PK) as a second target for "da jump"
(4) Zagstrukk, for his fearless aura
(5) Ghazghkull, for his general combat badassery and +1 attack buff for the stormboyz
(6) other armored units, like kanz or a kill tank to maximize multi-wound, high-toughness target saturation, which might help the meka dreads to live a bit longer
or (7) just more stormboyz
SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else slightly annoyed that everyone gets all these Fething reroll mechanics and we as a CC army get +1WS. Would it have been too much to ask for the Waaagh Banner to let us reroll failed wound rolls?
Not really I'm not in favor of orks re-rolling close combat stuff because of how many dice rolls that is, so for game speed it would be bad. What I would like is a re-roll to hit in shooting, or even the banner giving just straight +1 to hit (not just in the fight phase).
CaptainCarrots wrote: What are people's thoughts about fielding an all-in-your-face-turn-1 list with meka dreads and stormboyz?
Stormboyz seem to be a really strong (and versatile) unit, which is supported by their performance at BAO. And they have a threat range of 12+3d6", with the option of re-rolling charges.
And then meka dreads seem to be our best-costed dreadnought option. And they have the option of taking mega-chargas, which gives them a 16+2d6" threat range, with the option of re-rolling charges.
The core of the list that I've been tinkering around with looks like this:
Stormboyz, Stormboy Nobs w/ PKs (many)
Meka-dreads with Mega Charga, Rippa Klaw, and Rattler Kannon (3+)
Zhadsnark (1)
Ork Big Mek on Bike with Kustom Forcefield (2)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (1)
Boss Nob with Waaagh Banner (1)
The general strategy is to either go balls-to-the-wall aiming for a first-turn charge with as many units as possible (if your opponent happens to deploy close), or holding off on using the mega-chargas until turn 2 to all-but-guarantee that your meka-dreads reach close combat alongside (hopefully) Zhad and the stormboyz. Big Meks on Bikes are there to provide your army with a little bit of hardiness via KFFs and then also to hang out near the dreads once they reach combat to perform repairs. I think they're better platforms for the KFF than the dreads because (1) they're characters, and thus can't be shot at under most circumstances, and (2) equipping them with the KFF frees up your dreads to take chargas. Weirdboy is mainly there to "jump" the boss nob into range of all of your units once they hit the enemy lines, making everyone hit on 2s (although I suppose he could also jump zhad or units of stormboyz if needed).
Then, as far as additions go, I was trying to decide between:
(1) Kommandos (and maybe Snikrot?), for objective-grabbing and possible assaults out of deepstrike at the same time everything else hits the enemy lines
(2) Dakkajets or Lootas, for turn 1 supporting dakka
(3) Mob of 30 ork boyz (incl. nob w/ PK) as a second target for "da jump"
(4) Zagstrukk, for his fearless aura
(5) Ghazghkull, for his general combat badassery and +1 attack buff for the stormboyz
(6) other armored units, like kanz or a kill tank to maximize multi-wound, high-toughness target saturation, which might help the meka dreads to live a bit longer
or (7) just more stormboyz
What do you gits fink?
It is a very solid idea, the only negatives I can construct would be if your opponent has common sense and deploys back then you are going to be facing a 24in no mans land and then however far back he deployed. So a Turn 1 assault is unlikely. And if you play against a Girlyman gunline you can expect him to be turtled up in a corner of the map and be pretty heavy on dakka. But in general its a great idea, it just won't do that well against the current power builds like IG conscript spam, Daemon spam and Girlyman gunline.
SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else slightly annoyed that everyone gets all these Fething reroll mechanics and we as a CC army get +1WS. Would it have been too much to ask for the Waaagh Banner to let us reroll failed wound rolls?
Not really I'm not in favor of orks re-rolling close combat stuff because of how many dice rolls that is, so for game speed it would be bad. What I would like is a re-roll to hit in shooting, or even the banner giving just straight +1 to hit (not just in the fight phase).
It would be incredible though vs tough opponents. 30 boyz without any other buffs against a Land Raider would be putting out 120 attacks, 80 Hits and then about 12 wounds on the first batch and then another 11 on the second batch, it would actually make boyz really competitive and make the fluff work. Yeah they will die in droves but god help you if they ever get into CC with those buffs.
Recently returning to the hobby and picked up the Start Collecting box and the Index for Orks but they've sent out the miniatures and sent the other Xenos index.
Im wondering if anyone could give me a guide on a decent way to optimize the Boyz, Nobz and Deff Dread. I understand it obviously varies but im wondering if theres a kind of go to/safe bet with War Gear. I cant wait to get going.
SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else slightly annoyed that everyone gets all these Fething reroll mechanics and we as a CC army get +1WS. Would it have been too much to ask for the Waaagh Banner to let us reroll failed wound rolls?
Not really I'm not in favor of orks re-rolling close combat stuff because of how many dice rolls that is, so for game speed it would be bad. What I would like is a re-roll to hit in shooting, or even the banner giving just straight +1 to hit (not just in the fight phase).
It would be incredible though vs tough opponents. 30 boyz without any other buffs against a Land Raider would be putting out 120 attacks, 80 Hits and then about 12 wounds on the first batch and then another 11 on the second batch, it would actually make boyz really competitive and make the fluff work. Yeah they will die in droves but god help you if they ever get into CC with those buffs.
Sure it would be great for boyz, I just don't think it would be great for the game to be re-rolling 60 dice on a regular basis. Compared to the +1 to hit, you end up with 7 fewer wounds (17 to 24), but honestly of all the things that need buffing in our book boyz aren't one of them. I'd rather see buffs to our other units.
CaptainCarrots wrote: What are people's thoughts about fielding an all-in-your-face-turn-1 list with meka dreads and stormboyz?
Stormboyz seem to be a really strong (and versatile) unit, which is supported by their performance at BAO. And they have a threat range of 12+3d6", with the option of re-rolling charges.
And then meka dreads seem to be our best-costed dreadnought option. And they have the option of taking mega-chargas, which gives them a 16+2d6" threat range, with the option of re-rolling charges.
The core of the list that I've been tinkering around with looks like this:
Stormboyz, Stormboy Nobs w/ PKs (many)
Meka-dreads with Mega Charga, Rippa Klaw, and Rattler Kannon (3+)
Zhadsnark (1)
Ork Big Mek on Bike with Kustom Forcefield (2)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (1)
Boss Nob with Waaagh Banner (1)
The general strategy is to either go balls-to-the-wall aiming for a first-turn charge with as many units as possible (if your opponent happens to deploy close), or holding off on using the mega-chargas until turn 2 to all-but-guarantee that your meka-dreads reach close combat alongside (hopefully) Zhad and the stormboyz. Big Meks on Bikes are there to provide your army with a little bit of hardiness via KFFs and then also to hang out near the dreads once they reach combat to perform repairs. I think they're better platforms for the KFF than the dreads because (1) they're characters, and thus can't be shot at under most circumstances, and (2) equipping them with the KFF frees up your dreads to take chargas. Weirdboy is mainly there to "jump" the boss nob into range of all of your units once they hit the enemy lines, making everyone hit on 2s (although I suppose he could also jump zhad or units of stormboyz if needed).
Then, as far as additions go, I was trying to decide between:
(1) Kommandos (and maybe Snikrot?), for objective-grabbing and possible assaults out of deepstrike at the same time everything else hits the enemy lines
(2) Dakkajets or Lootas, for turn 1 supporting dakka
(3) Mob of 30 ork boyz (incl. nob w/ PK) as a second target for "da jump"
(4) Zagstrukk, for his fearless aura
(5) Ghazghkull, for his general combat badassery and +1 attack buff for the stormboyz
(6) other armored units, like kanz or a kill tank to maximize multi-wound, high-toughness target saturation, which might help the meka dreads to live a bit longer
or (7) just more stormboyz
What do you gits fink?
It is a very solid idea, the only negatives I can construct would be if your opponent has common sense and deploys back then you are going to be facing a 24in no mans land and then however far back he deployed. So a Turn 1 assault is unlikely. And if you play against a Girlyman gunline you can expect him to be turtled up in a corner of the map and be pretty heavy on dakka. But in general its a great idea, it just won't do that well against the current power builds like IG conscript spam, Daemon spam and Girlyman gunline.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't follow much of the BAO coverage so I wonder how John McCool fought against those kinds of lists with his stormboyz + gargantuan squiggoth list. I feel like functionally they're very similar ideas.
koooaei wrote: It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.
Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.
Depends. I'm itching to try a Big Mek next to 3 Kans and a Dread. Far easier to navigate than 30+ Boyz.
Considering all troops aka boys now have objective secured as per the chapter approved community page post.
There is even less reason not to take boys as that is a significant boost to them.
I just don't see any reason to play any other list competitively even McCool stormboys list is at a disadvantage now to boy horde list.
Recently returning to the hobby and picked up the Start Collecting box and the Index for Orks but they've sent out the miniatures and sent the other Xenos index.
Im wondering if anyone could give me a guide on a decent way to optimize the Boyz, Nobz and Deff Dread. I understand it obviously varies but im wondering if theres a kind of go to/safe bet with War Gear. I cant wait to get going.
Thanks
Until our codex comes out the current best build is to get more boyz and put your dread on the shelf. Nobz can be decent but they need a transport or a weirdboy. If you would like advice on purchases I would be glad to help as would others im sure.
koooaei wrote: It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.
Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.
Depends. I'm itching to try a Big Mek next to 3 Kans and a Dread. Far easier to navigate than 30+ Boyz.
It boils down to a lot of dead kanz
I played a game where I brought 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz a Big mek with KFF and a Nob with Banner. The Kanz did ok, but they died in droves and I honestly forgot about them exploding on 6s. They wrecked face when they finally got into CC and then sucked against his warlord who had a 4+ Invuln that he just couldn't fail. He also used CP rerolls to keep his guy alive, He single handedly killed about 3 kanz and the dread.
Overall i wasn't impressed by the dakka of the kanz nor their CC abilities, even with the Waaagh Banner nob. The KFF Big mek helped mitigate damage but not enough to make a big difference in the outcome. I think they need a points reduction badly, all of them.
Frozocrone wrote: Blasphemy, I like to think the dice gods will be on my side.
I'd like something in the codex that improves our BS by 1. Maybe as a Bad Moons ork we get that as Clan rules (or more shots to represent the bling).
Basically the KFF help to keep stuff alive. Killing more stuff also does that though.
They might give us back the stupid Git finda and then find another way to make it useless, like if you blink that turn you don't get to use it. Or that might be too reliable. Maybe if you breathe during your turn the git finda doesn't work.
I have read so many codexs and not a single one of them has half as many AMAZING Combos as the Ork Codex does, but then get spoiled by some idiot rule writer.
Examples: Battlewagon gets rule that ignores movement for heavy weapons! Doesn't work for passengers Battlewagon can be Toughness 8: loses shooting ability and is still 4+ save. Flash Gitz FINALLY get BS4+ standard!!!! Rules change that give -1 to heavy weapons when moving Killa Kanz get a 3+ save and get to move a bit faster! All their weapons become useless and over priced. Weirdboy can "Da Jump" Units across the board and they get to assault!!!!!! Rules change says only 1 per turn Kommandos gain +2 to cover instead of +1! If they are in cover they lose charge ranged and even with cover its still only a 4+ save Big Mek can fix a lot of hullpoints! Can't be inside the vehicle Burnas no longer have to choose between weapon profiles! Become so expensive they aren't worth taking, ohh and D3 instead of D6
I dont think we need anything that gives us +1 BS. Orks has plenty of good shooting units that are just handicapped by being way too squishy when on foot (tankbustas, lootas, flashgitz), too expensive in a transport (lootas), or not able to move and shoot (flashgitz), or just too expensive overall (warbikers). More than anything else, it is the new cover rules that has nerfed Orks dakka. We used to be able to get a 4+ cover save easily, and back in 4th we could even use grots to generate cover for our specialist troops. And the new damage model and lack of jink-save has also made warbikers a lot more squishy for their points. Flashgitz needs an assault or rapidfire profile on their guns. Rapidfire 2 would be nice.
Recently returning to the hobby and picked up the Start Collecting box and the Index for Orks but they've sent out the miniatures and sent the other Xenos index.
Im wondering if anyone could give me a guide on a decent way to optimize the Boyz, Nobz and Deff Dread. I understand it obviously varies but im wondering if theres a kind of go to/safe bet with War Gear. I cant wait to get going.
Thanks
Read the thread!
Boyz are great in blobs of 30, Nobz like big choppas, or plain. Despite GW's claims, dreads aren't very good. Multiple damage weapons will chew through him pretty easily. Probably outfit him full close combat and use him as a distraction unit.
I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.
It has always been utterly insane.
Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.
Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.
Bigdoza wrote: I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.
It has always been utterly insane.
Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.
Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.
And now go against a Girlyman gunline and watch your Gorkanaut die turn 1.
2 Predator Annihilators = 8 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds at -3AP doing D6 damage = 18+ wounds and he can use a CP to ensure it dies.
The tournament I was in had that exact build and he was EXTREMELY annoyed by me. I had nothing he could shoot at besides boyz and stormboyz so his 200pt model was shooting sledgehammers to kill flies
So really it just depends on the lists you are playing against, and Girlyman gunlines are not rare in competitive Meta.
I agree, a list with guilliman that buffs two las preds and a couple of twin assault cannon razorbacks is pretty common. Tipycally with also a stormraven in the party.
Against that kind of list you may go all vehicles or all boyz and similars plus characters. If you give the SM player the appropriate targets for both his anti tank and his anti infantry weapons orks' fate will be doomed by turn 1.
Bigdoza wrote: I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.
It has always been utterly insane.
Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.
Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.
And now go against a Girlyman gunline and watch your Gorkanaut die turn 1.
2 Predator Annihilators = 8 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds at -3AP doing D6 damage = 18+ wounds and he can use a CP to ensure it dies.
The tournament I was in had that exact build and he was EXTREMELY annoyed by me. I had nothing he could shoot at besides boyz and stormboyz so his 200pt model was shooting sledgehammers to kill flies
But this is also why green tide lists has no synergy with anything but more boyz and characters. Bring tankbustas, and they will be annihilated. Bring tankbustas in a transport, and it will be annihilated. Bring walkers, and they will die. You either spam nothing but 6-9 point models, or go all out T8. I have not yet tried the latter, so I don't know if it is viable after all.
If Orks were stronger overall, there would be a lot of people out there demanding a nerf to Ghaz. He is that good, and one of the very few things we have that will work in almost any kind of list.
Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.
Beyond that we could use another named character preferably a big mek since they usually play vital roles in lore and we have some major lore characters that need models in that section (orkimedes, Mogrok, wazdakka, gorzod- all of which are massively well known) maybe warboss grukk faceriper can grow into a more prominent role with a new special rule as well. I also wouldn't mind a named ork wirdboy.
Vineheart01 wrote: Touche, i actually havnt used MANz in 8th except in a smaller tutorial-type game with a friend that recently got into the game. Been having too much fun with walkers lol, finally getting use out of my kanz and deffs is amazing. (i have 6 Kanz and 4 Deffdreads lol) The ability to do the old school "wound shenanigans" makes me wonder if its worth having a larger than 3man MANz squad now. Or for that matter since vehicles dont have a unit limitation, just 2 squads in the same trukk/wagon lol
what wound shenaniganz? do we have wound shenanigans again?
gungo wrote: Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.
Beyond that we could use another named character preferably a big mek since they usually play vital roles in lore and we have some major lore characters that need models in that section (orkimedes, Mogrok, wazdakka, gorzod- all of which are massively well known) maybe warboss grukk faceriper can grow into a more prominent role with a new special rule as well. I also wouldn't mind a named ork wirdboy.
It would be nice to get Nazdreg from 3rd with an update. He's not dead is he?
Give me Old Zogwort back! I want to turn me enemies into squigs again!
Flash Gitz have quite a bit of firepower when they stand still. I'm not sure how we're supposed to get them in range and then have them stand still for a turn without getting blown off the table though. Maybe there will be a stratagem for them.
I'm not sure how worried I should be about all of our bike characters getting axed. I guess I can just run them out of the Index, but it would still be pretty lame.
gungo wrote: Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.
I haven't got to the primeorks in TBA yet, but aren't they supposed to be the size of buildings or something ridiculous like that?
From an earlier book in TBA (The Hunt for Vulkan?):
Spoiler:
Vulkan runs into a gang of orks that from his description sound like they're wearing mega armor. They're all bigger than him. It's true that the bigger the WAAAAGH! the bigger the orks tend to be, but also this was on just one of many planets and not part of The Beast's personal entourage or part of one of his more important raids.
Warbosses over three meters tall seem to show up frequently in the fluff. A warboss that size in Mega Armor would be roughly the size of a Space Marine dreadnought.
So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.
So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.
So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.
Depending on how much OVER 9.
Fifty-four wounds. Release it as a Ghaz/Stompa dual kit.
If they gave him the Super Cybork and it was a good FNP that could do a lot to make him more survivable as well.
So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
I'm not too excited about the idea of a new bigger Ghaz model.
I think 8th edition is an opportunity to introduce new special characters and I'd rather see that than get new models of old characters right away. If there would be a new Ghaz model I'd hope they wait a while and drop a supplement to go with him.
Just let that shark circle the boat a little while longer.
pismakron wrote: My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
I don't care for either of those house rules very much. We'd probably see T6 3+ save Warbikers and Biker Nobs back in really big way once again. Maybe T5 MANZ. but the lack of a invulnerable wave would do them in. it plays into the hands of armies that can bring lots of multi damage weapons.
Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut. However I wouldnt dismiss him if he reached primeork status. As the beast arises shows us they are not unkillable but prime orks are definitely primarch level of power. Heck there was an even a prime ork that took both the emperor and Horus together to kill.
Personally I'd like to see rules for mogrok especially since he still has a recent model. I'd love a wasdakka gutsmek warbike model w kff for official big mek w kff model w battle cannons for guns. Or just go all ghaz waaagh and make orkemedes he can be original and if you include cybork parts in his sprue maybe he can do something cool like make a single unit upgrade to free to cyborks.
pismakron wrote: My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.
Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.
pismakron wrote: My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.
Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.
I imagine -2 AP weapons can do away with this silly 'invulnerable save'.
+1 Toughness could be useful though. For all the crap that t-shirt saves get, being wounded on 5s rather than 4s is handy from time to time, as my 7th Grotesques can attest too.
pismakron wrote: My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.
Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.
I mean if they both applied to all models that change would be great for mech orks. I'd be happy to have T9 2+ save gorkanauts, T8/9 3+ save wagons, T8 2+ save deff dreads. 2+ save Kans. Against most weapons this is better than the current for those units. Also for Deffkoptas and buggies. The +1 save is worse for 6+ save units. The +1 T is dependent on the weapon it is as good or better than the 6+ FNP for every S but 6 and 7. Now I assume the pain boy would still only work for infantry and bikes.
pismakron wrote: My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.
That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.
That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.
Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.
I really don't know about the specifics, as it was just an odd pair of houserules in a game I didn't watch in person.
As for the speed thing, I definitely think that the normal aura effects are a lot easier to work with in the movement phase than the nine inch kff buble. Advancing across the table with ninety Boyz that ALL has be to fully inside the nine inch bubble is a pain the ass. In my last two games I haven't used big meks, and the turns just go much faster and more smoothly, but, not surprisingly, losses are also higher.
gungo wrote: Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.
I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stand horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.
gungo wrote: Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.
I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stank horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.
I disagree based on the fact that the game is already going that way, so Ghaz being smaller than many normal characters seems wrong. That said even in the case of those larger models not existing Ghaz needs to be a bit bigger than he is. Normal Meganobz are the same size or taller than he is. He should be ~ the size of a centurion, and on a 50mm base.
GreatGranpapy wrote: What kind of mileage have y'all been getting out of either of the Orkanauts? Thinking of picking one up for myself eventually.
On a side note the Dakkajet has been putting in good work for me so far.
My Morkanaut has yet to disappoint. It's KFF coverage is quite large and because I have lots of threats like the Dakkajet it doesn't get too much focus before my Orks take a toll on my opponent's stuff. The Dakkajet has some of the best shooting in the army. It has the full compliment of shots that you could possibly roll on a Deffstorm Megashoota at BS 4+! Solid unit.
Vineheart01 wrote: Doesnt the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?
Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)
If it was still 6" range I would agree with you but it just means you need proper placement and thanks to not having to worry about blast/flamer templates you can actually bunch up the boyz enough that they'll be in that 9" bubble. You definitely need to run multiples in the case of horde armies and a lot of the complaints for the KFF is how it restricts army movement, which is fair. I think it still makes up for it though as it saved my behind more times than I can count against enemy firepower especially for my vehicles or my dreds during my first try-out for a dred mob.
Vineheart01 wrote: Doesn't the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?
Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)
Correct and incorrect. You have to have the ENTIRE unit inside the bubble to get the benefit, however, I was able to cram 95 models under that bubble without much effort. The important thing to remember though is that this isn't all that great. If I could pay an extra 10-15pts and make it a 4++ it would be HUGE, but a 5++ just doesn't do as much as it should because you have to remember, THAT IS YOUR ARMOR SAVE!
By that I mean Ork infantry don't use their armor first and then save the ++ for those high powered -AP weapons. We instead substitute our armor for the KFF save the entire time, so a 5++ isn't that spectacular. A better way to look at that KFF save is to divide the cost of the Big Mek with KFF and add it to 60ish boyz, thats the price you are really paying to get a model with a 5+ save, and when you do that you quickly realize that we are overpaying for both the KFF and boyz.
As to vehicles, Its a necessity but again, our opponents either have better saves (normal and ++) or have some kind of ability to reduce damage like -1 to hit and such. So the KFF is great with vehicles but still not an auto-include.
gungo wrote: Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.
I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stank horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.
ironically people consider primarus marine truescale and what an actual marine size should be based on current lore and size of cadian models. current marines are actually to small and thus comparing primarus marines (truescale) to Guilliman. He is also correctly sized.... however you can still cry about his pauldrons which are HUGE.
Ghaz is already suppose to be the largest surviving ork in LORE. He should already be the size of a carnifex whereas true prime orks which were ancient orks were imperial knight sized. You can claim ghaz isn't old enough to be a prime ork yet but he should definitely be larger then mega nobs.
Vineheart01 wrote: Doesn't the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?
Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)
Correct and incorrect. You have to have the ENTIRE unit inside the bubble to get the benefit, however, I was able to cram 95 models under that bubble without much effort. The important thing to remember though is that this isn't all that great. If I could pay an extra 10-15pts and make it a 4++ it would be HUGE, but a 5++ just doesn't do as much as it should because you have to remember, THAT IS YOUR ARMOR SAVE!
By that I mean Ork infantry don't use their armor first and then save the ++ for those high powered -AP weapons. We instead substitute our armor for the KFF save the entire time, so a 5++ isn't that spectacular. A better way to look at that KFF save is to divide the cost of the Big Mek with KFF and add it to 60ish boyz, thats the price you are really paying to get a model with a 5+ save, and when you do that you quickly realize that we are overpaying for both the KFF and boyz.
As to vehicles, Its a necessity but again, our opponents either have better saves (normal and ++) or have some kind of ability to reduce damage like -1 to hit and such. So the KFF is great with vehicles but still not an auto-include.
considering how strong boy blobs are already in the meta... You aren't overpaying for anything....it is one of the best units in game.... I know you have the label of being completely pessimistic on everything but crying about boyz is way out of place.
Yeah boyz are kinda nuts. Which is kinda counter-intuitive for me because i like toyz. I only own....200ish boyz i think but i have 5 dakkajets/battlewagons, 4 dreads, 6 kanz, 10 koptaz, 30 bikes, you get the idea lol. Even just a stock unit of boy blobs with sluggachoppa (26 of them +pk nob) managed to cause 36 wounds to a marine squad lol. And i even forgot about their green tide +1 attack for more than 20 models rule. So they rolled 78 instead of 104 dice and still managed to cause that many wounds lol. I'm used to that only happening if im wounding on 3s pounding some guardsmen, not against marines. Really my only complaint about boyz is on the Nob: theres no bosspole rules....wtfgw?
I still take painboyz even though i feel the 6+++ doesnt really work very often because even if he saves 4 boyz he's probably done enough, and he keeps the boss alive something fierce (seriously that heal is awesome). Plus, that one is model-specific so positioning isnt as punishing. Thats the main thing about the KFF that bugs me. If even ONE BOY in your squad isnt in 9" they dont get the invul. It makes no sense to me for that to happen. On one hand it makes it much easier to tag all your vehicles but on the other it doesnt cover large units easily. almost wish it was back to the 6" model specific rule.
..speaking of koptas why the frak are they vehicles now? lol that caught me off guard when i was corrected on attempting to painboy them thinking they were bikes (since...yaknow..jetbikes previously?)
considering how strong boy blobs are already in the meta... You aren't overpaying for anything....it is one of the best units in game.... I know you have the label of being completely pessimistic on everything but crying about boyz is way out of place.
I also play in a seriously competitive meta apparently because my opponents regularly bring Girlyman gunlines or spam enough dakka to wipe out boyz mobz every turn. One specific list i ran into recently was quad Asscan Razorbacks support by Girlyman with some throwaway infantry out front. 48 TL shots with shred that ignore my armor. I moved into range turn 1 because of necessity and he mowed down a blob of boyz every turn. 48 shots = about 43 hits and S6 Vs T4 = about 37+ wounds a turn. That 5++ And 6FNP did work for me but I was still getting my butt kicked. Turn one he killed 1 blob with lucky shooting/wounding and bad rolls on my part, turn 2 He repeated that trick and used his now rapid firing infantry to ensure the kill because I rolled rather well. Turn 3 I finally got into the assault and tied up all his infantry only for them to fall back and shoot the last blob I had left off the table.
With all of that said, I am not saying boyz aren't already good, I am saying that the KFF isn't all that good right now for its price and usefulness, I would love to get a MFF back
the girlyman tactic might as well just remove 1/16th of the dice you are rolling and then make that many saves. Kinda ridiculous they gave reroll hits AND wounds to a 3+ army that can spam heavy weapons.
Face that with my orks and i literally just feel like im banking on 5++ luck because he literally can NOT miss/fail to wound me.
This is why i dont play competitive 40k. There is always atleast 1 army that has an autowin list and only loses through sheer bad luck or it didnt shoot first.
The kff makes its points back and then some every game I play.
Sounds like you need movement trays to keep everyone in kff range.
The painboy is not really that useful, mad doc is really the only decent option with boy blobs and that's because he is fairly durable and provides semi reliable pk action. The handful of boys he saves per game is just extra if your lucky he can heal wounds on himself or another character like ghaz.
Boys even got a bump with chapter approved making blob lists objective secured.
Also guilliman and conscript blobs are the best list in game currently. Conscripts are on the chopping block due for a nerf and likely small points bump for guilliman. Then you can cry about the next net list! Maybe ynnari/harlequins or tau commanders (which looks like nerfbaf bait soon as well)
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Vineheart01 wrote: the girlyman tactic might as well just remove 1/16th of the dice you are rolling and then make that many saves. Kinda ridiculous they gave reroll hits AND wounds to a 3+ army that can spam heavy weapons.
Face that with my orks and i literally just feel like im banking on 5++ luck because he literally can NOT miss/fail to wound me.
This is why i dont play competitive 40k. There is always atleast 1 army that has an autowin list and only loses through sheer bad luck or it didnt shoot first.
Gw has been going through netlists fast...in two months we have seen plasma scion spam nerfed, stormraven nerfed, razorwing spam nerfed, brimstone spam nerfed, genestealers buffed and immediately nerfed, honestly a conscript nerf is due really soon and maybe a guilliman point bump and things should be a bit better. I'm sure we will get a FAQ (at least on conscripts) before nova at the end of the month since the chapter approved post said nova will implement the new changes.
To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.
Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.
Blackie wrote: To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.
Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.
The raven list was nerfed, as were scions, both are still really good.
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koooaei wrote: Unfortunately the codex didn't nerf girlyman and razors.
Which is kind of amusing because they removed things like las/plas turrets, but not the assault cannon turret, even though no such Turret comes in the Razorback kit. I guess they want people to buy the Landraider crusader kit or Baal Pred kit to get the turrets for their razorbacks as that is the only GW assault cannon turrets that exist.
Blackie wrote: To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.
Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.
On the other hand a game dominated by plasma scions and gurliman-buffed las-predators makes things a lot easier for boy-hordes. But I agree that plasma-scions are good against pretty much anything else in the game. Lootas, tankbustas, walkers, transports, artillery, nobz, meganobz and bikers are all hardcountered by deepstriking plasma-scions. Plasma scions are great against light vehicles, heavy tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures and elite infantry.
Yeah 4 storm Ravens back up by las/missile dreds and shrike to give everything rerolls to hit kills 60+ Boyz a turn under a kff and painboy with splitfire nailing any vehicles/big guns that could of threatened them. They're very much not nerfed.
Have you tried screening you vehicles with stormboyz? Just to keep the scions out of rapid fire range?
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Hades wrote: Yeah 4 storm Ravens back up by las/missile dreds and shrike to give everything rerolls to hit kills 60+ Boyz a turn under a kff and painboy with splitfire nailing any vehicles/big guns that could of threatened them. They're very much not nerfed.
But 60 Boyz a turn is not necessarily enough for those kind of lists anymore. Ghaz, Grotsnik and 30 Boyz can easily destroy a guilliman parking lot or similar outfit. Regards
pismakron wrote: Have you tried screening you vehicles with stormboyz? Just to keep the scions out of rapid fire range?
That would be a tailoring move since orks lists with many vehicles may be viable only beacuse everything in those lists is T6 or better, invalidating the anti-infantry weapons in the first turns. If you field stormboyz and don't go first the opponent will now have some juicy target for his anti-infantry units. And you also end up with more drops. You're right about plasma scions since you will probably go first anyway and you keep them out of rapid fire range but against other armies? I think hoping not to face many scions command squads and going with a full mechanized list is more TAC
But 60 Boyz a turn is not necessarily enough for those kind of lists anymore. Ghaz, Grotsnik and 30 Boyz can easily destroy a guilliman parking lot or similar outfit. Regards
Maybe in tournaments with time limitations. In a real game with 5+ turns, if you field a green tide and lose 60 boyz a turn you're gonna be tabled.
The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons
Hades wrote: The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons
That is part of it if those auras were infantry models within 6", it would help that a lot. It also didn't help that the assault cannon gained 2 shots, which meant that the twin assault cannon gained 4 shots.
I think if things were costed a bit better it would be good too. If twin weapons for marines were like twin weapons for orks things would be a bit different.
Twin big shoota is a 133% increase in points, so is the twin rokkit launcha (rack of rokkits/kopta rokkits)
If you did that for the twin marine weapons
Twin heavy bolter would be 23 points
Twin assault cannon 49 points
Twin lascannon would be 58 points
etc
Right now the worst marines get is a 100% increase (twin lascannon is the cost of 2 lascannons), the assault cannon is only a 66% increase, twin heavy bolter is 70% increase.
If an assault cannon razorback was 114 points it wouldn't be a huge change, but it would add up over the course of an army.
Hades wrote: The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons
That is part of it if those auras were infantry models within 6", it would help that a lot. It also didn't help that the assault cannon gained 2 shots, which meant that the twin assault cannon gained 4 shots.
I think if things were costed a bit better it would be good too. If twin weapons for marines were like twin weapons for orks things would be a bit different.
Twin big shoota is a 133% increase in points, so is the twin rokkit launcha (rack of rokkits/kopta rokkits)
If you did that for the twin marine weapons
Twin heavy bolter would be 23 points
Twin assault cannon 49 points
Twin lascannon would be 58 points
etc
Right now the worst marines get is a 100% increase (twin lascannon is the cost of 2 lascannons), the assault cannon is only a 66% increase, twin heavy bolter is 70% increase.
If an assault cannon razorback was 114 points it wouldn't be a huge change, but it would add up over the course of an army.
Yeah, just one more reason why I need to track down whomever wrote the Ork Index and beat them with a blunt choppa. A shooting army pays less for more shots then a CC army does......One more step down GWs illogical ladder
I intend to force my opponent to make all his real drops first, As in actually on the table, by using my units to stay in reserve (Kommandos, Koptas) I am reasonably sure this will allow me to see how my opponent is set up. After that I will deploy my Boyz, Ghaz, Mad Dok, Weirdboyz and 
So the dok and Flash gits killed the Flyrant in 
Lootas failed to shoot or charge the Guards.
Rules change that give -1 to heavy weapons when moving 
