For armies on foot I'd say that there are two approaches to squad size: 30 man squads to get the green tide buff, or 10 man squads to get as many free Nobz as possible. For transports you generally go for whatever size you can fit in next to your characters and specialists.
To cut a long story short, we're bottom tier only above tau but will be on the last place after the uptade with an influx of tau wins that have been reported but haven't been accounted yet.
So what we can probably deduce is;
That Ork competitive (horde and highly specialised lists seem to have a decent competitive chance)
Ork *fun* lists are of a lower standard compared to other factions
Thats a shame, as I fall primarily into the fun catagory and like to take units I like. Well i'm no stranger to challenges! Let the WAAAAAGGGHHH Commence!
That's not a bad thing for tourneys to be considered the worst army and than bringing somehting FACESMASHING and suddenly win everyone. In 7-th it was greentide and bully boyz. It can be...anything in 8-th - we don't know yet. Underdog wins are the sweetest.
koooaei wrote: That's not a bad thing for tourneys to be considered the worst army and than bringing somehting FACESMASHING and suddenly win everyone. In 7-th it was greentide and bully boyz. It can be...anything in 8-th - we don't know yet. Underdog wins are the sweetest.
Exactly. Once you're top dog everyone builds around you, while being the relative unknown/underdog gives you a surprise advantage in people not preparing their lists for your army in mind. Thankfully, it also seems like the powergap isn't quite as severe as in 7th ed and so even if we aren't on the higher end of the power scale we still have some chance of winning compared to before.
koooaei wrote: That's not a bad thing for tourneys to be considered the worst army and than bringing somehting FACESMASHING and suddenly win everyone. In 7-th it was greentide and bully boyz. It can be...anything in 8-th - we don't know yet. Underdog wins are the sweetest.
Exactly. Once you're top dog everyone builds around you, while being the relative unknown/underdog gives you a surprise advantage in people not preparing their lists for your army in mind. Thankfully, it also seems like the powergap isn't quite as severe as in 7th ed and so even if we aren't on the higher end of the power scale we still have some chance of winning compared to before.
This and this ^^
Had a 7e campaign thingy, had to put what faction we were primarily playing. My second game was against a dude running CSM (a dude who on my first actual game of 40k changed his list to counter mine after I told him i had orksyeh that guy) .
Well to that campaign I brought Orks with Necron Allies. Wraith formation, 2 warrior blobs, lobbas, lootas and bikers.
He conceded turn 2 When aren't we the underdogs!
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Are kombi-skorchas worth giving to Nobz? I feel like they could output quite a lot of shooting, but may hinder them getting into combat.
And in my opinion, don't waste the points giving nobz ranged weapons. the skorcha is nice but if you are close enough to use it that means you are in charge range and don't want to give him an easy way to dodge that charge by increasing the range by 2-4 inches.
SemperMortis wrote: And in my opinion, don't waste the points giving nobz ranged weapons. the skorcha is nice but if you are close enough to use it that means you are in charge range and don't want to give him an easy way to dodge that charge by increasing the range by 2-4 inches.
Still usefull vs elite targets which is the stuff you want to get your nobs in CC with.
If you kill 3 guys of that terminator squad and need 1-2" more for charging it`s ok.
And in heat of the battle there is always a good chance to shoot one target and charge another - especially when you move wisely and disembark from a transporter.
And finally you autohit even when advancing.
KFF is still really good.
9" plus you get some protection from that bloody first strike - which is a tough one in 8th edition.
Azhday wrote: And do you think they will make something for the Freebooterz? Those klanless Flash Gitz are really bothering me, it seems as though GW will ignore our space pirates...
I hope they do something with Freebooters. I kind of have mixed feelings on Flash Gitz, though. I really like the pirate look, and I can appreciate that Flash Gitz often become Freebooters because they are rich enough to do so. The thing that bothers me a bit is that Flash Gitz are also billed as being very frequently a Bad Moons unit, but then they can't have the Bad Moons keyword. It's just kind of weird. It would be kind of like the fluff talking about Snakebites breeding the biggest squigs, and then Squiggoths being considered a Feral Orks unit that can't get a Snakebites clan keyword.
I've got ten more Flash Gitz on the way, which will give me twenty total. I'm going to try to do about half as extra-piratey Freebooters and about half as not-piratey Bad Moons. They have absolutely incredible firepower, but they pay for it in high points cost and getting them to where they can take full advantage of it seems like it will be challenging.
To cut a long story short, we're bottom tier only above tau but will be on the last place after the uptade with an influx of tau wins that have been reported but haven't been accounted yet.
I'm not at all worried. If you remember, the orks scored abysmally in the first week, and the current numbers reflect that. If we just look at the last 75 games or so, i think our win rate is over 50%.
Azhday wrote: And do you think they will make something for the Freebooterz? Those klanless Flash Gitz are really bothering me, it seems as though GW will ignore our space pirates...
I hope they do something with Freebooters. I kind of have mixed feelings on Flash Gitz, though. I really like the pirate look, and I can appreciate that Flash Gitz often become Freebooters because they are rich enough to do so. The thing that bothers me a bit is that Flash Gitz are also billed as being very frequently a Bad Moons unit, but then they can't have the Bad Moons keyword. It's just kind of weird. It would be kind of like the fluff talking about Snakebites breeding the biggest squigs, and then Squiggoths being considered a Feral Orks unit that can't get a Snakebites clan keyword.
I've got ten more Flash Gitz on the way, which will give me twenty total. I'm going to try to do about half as extra-piratey Freebooters and about half as not-piratey Bad Moons. They have absolutely incredible firepower, but they pay for it in high points cost and getting them to where they can take full advantage of it seems like it will be challenging.
Battle wagon or Wyrdboy are solid ways to get them where you need them.
Sure on the move they get BS of 5+ but you can still give them a load of ammorunts which will boost their output and make them much more durable.
To bad Badrukk can`t boost them inside a battlewagon even if he`s on board.
Freeboters as single clan would be nice.
With all the fancy chapter tactics i hope for some good ork stuff.
SemperMortis wrote: And in my opinion, don't waste the points giving nobz ranged weapons. the skorcha is nice but if you are close enough to use it that means you are in charge range and don't want to give him an easy way to dodge that charge by increasing the range by 2-4 inches.
Still usefull vs elite targets which is the stuff you want to get your nobs in CC with.
If you kill 3 guys of that terminator squad and need 1-2" more for charging it`s ok.
And in heat of the battle there is always a good chance to shoot one target and charge another - especially when you move wisely and disembark from a transporter.
And finally you autohit even when advancing.
So basically what I was thinking;
2-3 Bigtrakks with supa-skorchas (transport cap at 6) = roughly 600-700 points depending on loadout
Initially I was going to put Ghazz, banner, weirdboy, mek in 1. Then load the others with either kommandos or burna boyz; as both have access to burnas. This way I have 3 Vehicles that can move 14" a turn and output plenty of autohitting dakka. But the way I see it, 1 nob with K-skorcha and BC = about 3 burnas points wise. But im not sure about the difference in Damage output.
6 burna's have 6x D3 Str 4 shots, that work great shooting from the vehicle and in overwatch. Then when disembarked, with Ghazz buff, on the charge they have 3 attacks each which are Str4 AP-2, which seems pretty pokey hitting on 2s with the banner nob.
Kommando's have something similar, but have a few more chaff boyz for eating wounds for less damage output and are the cheapest options at 47 points for a min squad.
Nobz however, looking about 45 points each for; D6 Str5 AP-1 Shooting, with 4 attacks at Str 7 AP-2 D2 BigChoppas for CC hitting on 2s with Ghazz and Banner.
So Nobz are far more pricey, and at transport cap 6 I can only squeeze in 1 ammo runt, making them more vunerable, but i feel like the Skorcha is going to put in some serious work. As mentioned I can technically shoot another unit if im in range, or I can soften up a elite unit. Although if I go with the burnas/kommandos I can squeeze in a Meka-dred for the KFF to support my flaming mech spam.
Big meks with 2 kombi-skorchas
Burnas
Nobz with kombi-skorchas
Meganobz with kombi-skorchas
Killa Kanz with skorchas
Deff dreads with two skorchas
Skorchas (buggies)
Supaskorcha trakks
Burna Bombers with skorcha missiles
...
Arch Arsonist, iz dat yu?
I can sense those sweet sweet promethium fumes right now.
For people who say don't take range weapons on nobs. You do realize the nob unit gets an ammo runt which grants a reroll. You can take 2 rokkits launchas and basically have a mini tank busta unit vs all unit types.
Personally I was kinda peeved mega nobs didn't get an ammo runt option since thier box actually has a model.
SemperMortis wrote: And in my opinion, don't waste the points giving nobz ranged weapons. the skorcha is nice but if you are close enough to use it that means you are in charge range and don't want to give him an easy way to dodge that charge by increasing the range by 2-4 inches.
Still usefull vs elite targets which is the stuff you want to get your nobs in CC with.
If you kill 3 guys of that terminator squad and need 1-2" more for charging it`s ok.
And in heat of the battle there is always a good chance to shoot one target and charge another - especially when you move wisely and disembark from a transporter.
And finally you autohit even when advancing.
So basically what I was thinking;
2-3 Bigtrakks with supa-skorchas (transport cap at 6) = roughly 600-700 points depending on loadout
Initially I was going to put Ghazz, banner, weirdboy, mek in 1. Then load the others with either kommandos or burna boyz; as both have access to burnas. This way I have 3 Vehicles that can move 14" a turn and output plenty of autohitting dakka. But the way I see it, 1 nob with K-skorcha and BC = about 3 burnas points wise. But im not sure about the difference in Damage output.
6 burna's have 6x D3 Str 4 shots, that work great shooting from the vehicle and in overwatch. Then when disembarked, with Ghazz buff, on the charge they have 3 attacks each which are Str4 AP-2, which seems pretty pokey hitting on 2s with the banner nob.
Kommando's have something similar, but have a few more chaff boyz for eating wounds for less damage output and are the cheapest options at 47 points for a min squad.
Nobz however, looking about 45 points each for; D6 Str5 AP-1 Shooting, with 4 attacks at Str 7 AP-2 D2 BigChoppas for CC hitting on 2s with Ghazz and Banner.
So Nobz are far more pricey, and at transport cap 6 I can only squeeze in 1 ammo runt, making them more vunerable, but i feel like the Skorcha is going to put in some serious work. As mentioned I can technically shoot another unit if im in range, or I can soften up a elite unit. Although if I go with the burnas/kommandos I can squeeze in a Meka-dred for the KFF to support my flaming mech spam.
I wouldn't buy models around the big trakk w supa skorcha yet. I'm hoping the mega dread retains the supa skorcha it had and allows us to take double supa skorchas and the mega charga. Even at 260-270pts that's a huge threat range.
They should have ammorunts anyway to take some LasCa hits or just absorb damage.
Unless you max out the transport capacity if they get a wagon or trukk.
Do you think Zhardsnark will become much more difficult to use (especially with walkers/gunz ) when the ork codex comes out and Evil Sunz Klan becomes more restrictive?
Bigdoza wrote: Do you think Zhardsnark will become much more difficult to use (especially with walkers/gunz ) when the ork codex comes out and Evil Sunz Klan becomes more restrictive?
No because Waagh is cross faction, breaking heads isn't a huge deal. He will either lose out or gain on chapter tactics but he is only really taken because he is an affordable reliable pk and with the speed to get the pk where uou need it. He's the best anti tank we got point for point. There is currently no restriction taking multiple clans per detachment. For instance mad doc is deathskull and works w every ork buff except waaagj banner from different clans. Now buzz grob will be annoying because he can only repair goff vehicles. He also better come with a free kff because he is horribly overpriced for a big mek w big choppa and 2 grots
After the Space Marine Codex release i`m pretty sure we can see what direction GW is going with chapters / clans.
Every <clan> 1 specific rule and additional warlord traits / strategems which will unlock additional abilities - both in general and specific ones for the clans.
Then we will get some stuff like red paint job back.
Wonder if Freebooterz will get their own rules or will be compensated of not having rules by being cheap (since they're technically a mish-mash of clans).
gungo wrote: For people who say don't take range weapons on nobs. You do realize the nob unit gets an ammo runt which grants a reroll. You can take 2 rokkits launchas and basically have a mini tank busta unit vs all unit types.
I think the nob discussion generally was referring to boss nobs, which can't take runts.
Grotrebel wrote: After the Space Marine Codex release i`m pretty sure we can see what direction GW is going with chapters / clans.
Every <clan> 1 specific rule and additional warlord traits / strategems which will unlock additional abilities - both in general and specific ones for the clans.
Then we will get some stuff like red paint job back.
not to continue my trend of being a negative nancy, but I have doubts GW will give us something nice and shiny like Klan Tactics without giving us some massive nerf or downside to offset the bonus. (Lootas get D3+3 shots EACH!, but you kill yourself on rolls of 1 to hit.)
gungo wrote: For people who say don't take range weapons on nobs. You do realize the nob unit gets an ammo runt which grants a reroll. You can take 2 rokkits launchas and basically have a mini tank busta unit vs all unit types.
I think the nob discussion generally was referring to boss nobs, which can't take runts.
That is what I was talking about in reference to not taking a ranged weapon.
Clan tactics I'd like to see
Evilsun- advance +2 and can fall back and charge
Goff- +1 str on charge
Bad moon- infantry units get 1 ammo runt
Snakebite- 6+ fnp or +1 doc tools.
Blood axe- -1 to hit in cover or +1 cover save even in open ground.
Deathskull- reroll 1s to wound
Freebooter- it's really clanless but wouldn't mind something because this will only make flashgitz even worse without anything.
gungo wrote: Clan tactics I'd like to see
Evilsun- advance +2 and can fall back and charge
Goff- +1 str on charge
Bad moon- units get 1 ammo runt
Snakebite- 6+ fnp Blood axe- +1 cover save
Deathskull- reroll 1s to wound
Freebooter- it's really clanless but wouldn't mind something
I'd LOVE the +1 cover save for blood axes...but I would assume they would make it like kommandos where it's +1 only if you already had cover, which is very, very hard for 30-boy blobs to get. Mostly likely it'll be that, which effectively means Blood Axes get nothing. Sad face.
gungo wrote: Clan tactics I'd like to see
Evilsun- advance +2 and can fall back and charge
Goff- +1 str on charge
Bad moon- units get 1 ammo runt
Snakebite- 6+ fnp Blood axe- +1 cover save
Deathskull- reroll 1s to wound
Freebooter- it's really clanless but wouldn't mind something
I'd LOVE the +1 cover save for blood axes...but I would assume they would make it like kommandos where it's +1 only if you already had cover, which is very, very hard for 30-boy blobs to get. Mostly likely it'll be that, which effectively means Blood Axes get nothing. Sad face.
it can be like ravengaurd -1 to hit outside 12in but I rather have -1 to hit in cover. It's at least helpful for small infantry units in terrain. Like 5-10 man kommandos units.
Remember nothing this edition limits you from taking multiple clans in a detachment. Only character buffs most of which work on all orks or easily bypassed w special characters like mad doc works on all. So maybe your boy blobs are goff and your bikes and buggies are evil sun and your mek guns are badmoon and your lootas are deathskulls. Everything mostly works together fine. Just don't take a waaagh banner or try to use a mek to repair a nonclan vehicle or basic painboy to heal (maddoc is fine)
Cover save is pretty irrelevant for kommandoes. You either don't get it at all cause you're trying to charge something - and there's generally no cover left near the opponent - he has allready occupied it - or you intentionally avoid deploying in cover to not get -2 to your charge distance.
All good it usually does is add a tiiiiny bit of durability when you want to just grab a remote object.
gungo wrote:
I wouldn't buy models around the big trakk w supa skorcha yet. I'm hoping the mega dread retains the supa skorcha it had and allows us to take double supa skorchas and the mega charga. Even at 260-270pts that's a huge threat range.
Firstly, we don't even know if the mega dread will be coming back (unless I missed something?)
Secondly, Thats just wishlisting
Personally I would prefer to build a list around a unit I have an actual datasheet for, that I can use and that I have. So please dont tell me to wait for a hypothetical unicorn Im leaning towards burna boyz, I feel the Ghazz buff could actually make them a decent murder unit. The AP of the burna means they could (on the charge) deal decent damage against elite units with weight of attacks. I can then stick a mek in each bigtrakk for the repairs.
koooaei wrote:Cover save is pretty irrelevant for kommandoes. You either don't get it at all cause you're trying to charge something - and there's generally no cover left near the opponent - he has allready occupied it - or you intentionally avoid deploying in cover to not get -2 to your charge distance.
All good it usually does is add a tiiiiny bit of durability when you want to just grab a remote object.
Yeh this is the real issue. Great for camping on an objective miles away, but there's almost on use for the cover save when trying to get into combat.
Maybe the Klan tactic could be that they get a bonus to charges into cover
Dr.Duck wrote: Wonder if trukk orks is still viable. Just use nobz instead of boyz.
I've been thinking of this for a while. Get a full group of Nobz (slugga choppa or Big choppa) add 1x Warboss and 1x Painboy (or Banner). When the trukk blows you lose 2 nobz on average. Not sure how the points stack up as you're putting 295 points into a trukk and charging it as fast as you can. The Nobz are 170 points + warboss 85 + Painboy 40. Haven't had a chance to try it out but it's on my list.
I have Done Just this with ghazzy instead of warboss, did wonders. killed 1 ghostkeel and accompanied stealth drones, then the next turn charge into the back ranks of breachers/firewarriors killing them all. He did very well as did the nobs all equiped with BC. very choppy.
gungo wrote:
I wouldn't buy models around the big trakk w supa skorcha yet. I'm hoping the mega dread retains the supa skorcha it had and allows us to take double supa skorchas and the mega charga. Even at 260-270pts that's a huge threat range.
Firstly, we don't even know if the mega dread will be coming back (unless I missed something?)
Secondly, Thats just wishlisting
Personally I would prefer to build a list around a unit I have an actual datasheet for, that I can use and that I have. So please dont tell me to wait for a hypothetical unicorn Im leaning towards burna boyz, I feel the Ghazz buff could actually make them a decent murder unit. The AP of the burna means they could (on the charge) deal decent damage against elite units with weight of attacks. I can then stick a mek in each bigtrakk for the repairs.
koooaei wrote:Cover save is pretty irrelevant for kommandoes. You either don't get it at all cause you're trying to charge something - and there's generally no cover left near the opponent - he has allready occupied it - or you intentionally avoid deploying in cover to not get -2 to your charge distance.
All good it usually does is add a tiiiiny bit of durability when you want to just grab a remote object.
Yeh this is the real issue. Great for camping on an objective miles away, but there's almost on use for the cover save when trying to get into combat.
Maybe the Klan tactic could be that they get a bonus to charges into cover
You missed something.....
Grot bomb
Mega dread and
Battlefortress are having dataslates put on the fw website it is in the current fwFAQ.
Secondly that is the 6th/7th edition profile not wishlisting
Less snark this isn't a hypothetical unicorn this is you missing the post. The mega dread is actually being placed on fw site in the next week or so.
gungo wrote:
I wouldn't buy models around the big trakk w supa skorcha yet. I'm hoping the mega dread retains the supa skorcha it had and allows us to take double supa skorchas and the mega charga. Even at 260-270pts that's a huge threat range.
Firstly, we don't even know if the mega dread will be coming back (unless I missed something?)
Secondly, Thats just wishlisting
Personally I would prefer to build a list around a unit I have an actual datasheet for, that I can use and that I have. So please dont tell me to wait for a hypothetical unicorn Im leaning towards burna boyz, I feel the Ghazz buff could actually make them a decent murder unit. The AP of the burna means they could (on the charge) deal decent damage against elite units with weight of attacks. I can then stick a mek in each bigtrakk for the repairs.
koooaei wrote:Cover save is pretty irrelevant for kommandoes. You either don't get it at all cause you're trying to charge something - and there's generally no cover left near the opponent - he has allready occupied it - or you intentionally avoid deploying in cover to not get -2 to your charge distance.
All good it usually does is add a tiiiiny bit of durability when you want to just grab a remote object.
Yeh this is the real issue. Great for camping on an objective miles away, but there's almost on use for the cover save when trying to get into combat.
Maybe the Klan tactic could be that they get a bonus to charges into cover
You missed something.....
Grot bomb
Mega dread and
Battlefortress are having dataslates put on the fw website it is in the current fwFAQ.
Secondly that is the 6th/7th edition profile not wishlisting
Less snark this isn't a hypothetical unicorn this is you missing the post. The mega dread is actually being placed on fw site in the next week or so.
well I actually had a look for the FWFAQ before i posted... but I cant access any sites related to gaming when at work, so it was a little difficult. I checked the GW community site but it wasn't there, where I assumed it would be, considering at the end of the GWFAQ it said 'next week FWFAQ'.
Secondly, I havent seen the FWFAQ mentioned here, no one linked it or said about it (that I can recall and I read 95% of posts).
Finally.
YOU DIDNT EVEN ANSWER MY QUESTION. Other than to tell me "nah, dont do that, dont even bother looking at that".
So sorry if you dont like the snark, I just dont like it when I spend time thinking about a post , write it out, ask for opinions about what im thinking, only to have someone to quote me, and ignore me.
I even 'tried' to make it a little more lighthearted, by asking if I had missed something. and sticking an emoji at the end.
So **** off in the politest way possible
EDIT: Atleast, the snark got you to give me a response to the question i asked;
(have i missed something?) you replied to that and gave me all the information I needed. Maybe snark is the way forward. It appears logically to do so, if you take into consideration the 2 posts between us.
BOOM
/snark
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The meka having to pick between the rokkit-rack/kff/mega charger seems meh.
I was hoping the rokkit-racks were simply an extra you could add on. Thats a shame, as it added a nice bit of shooting for the kff variant. But alas not to be. I will have to pull the rokkit-racks off mine, as I want it for a KFF variant. but it might even be worth turning the whole model into a mega. we shall see.
I linked the post about it before on this thread (you missed that too on page 49 and then people discussed it into pg50). I was also stating it isn't worth picking up a big trakk just for a skorcha because it should have a cheaper and better profile for the supa skorcha. I'm sorry you didn't like the post but it did address your point. As I myself was going to pick up a new fw order but am waiting for the actual dataslates to be released.
The mega dread is generally close to the same profile of the meka w/o a kff option and likely 5+bs.
Instead of the rattler cannon it has a killkannon (still sold), instead of zzap gun it has a supa skorcha, and instead of shunta it has a killsaw (still sold). They both had mega chargas in 6th. With bs 5+ it's only worth taking the saw/klaw and supa skorcha.
We already know the supa skorcha only costs 28pts and the mega dread was actually cheaper last edition then the meka.
Your entire post was about how effective two supa skorcha traks would be at 600 pts. When you can likely take a single mega charga mega dread with at least 1 arm possibly 2 for ~260. And this unit can move 8+8 with a 24in range supa skorcha. It should be a cheaper and better option. The fact I told you to wait like I was doing until that data sheet came out before you spent $60 x2 for big trakk a that cost more points to do what you wanted to do for half the point costs wasn't irrelevant.
So because you missed several posts and completely missed the FAQ then decided to cry about it feel free to piss off.
If Goffs get +1 str on the charge... holy balls. I would super charge a unit of boyz with ghazzy and warpath and greentide. 6 attacks a piece. And a banner nob nearby??
180 attacks hitting on 2s and wounding MEQ on 3s. LOL Would be 101 wounds to save hahahah.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: If Goffs get +1 str on the charge... holy balls. I would super charge a unit of boyz with ghazzy and warpath and greentide. 6 attacks a piece. And a banner nob nearby??
180 attacks hitting on 2s and wounding MEQ on 3s. LOL Would be 101 wounds to save hahahah.
You can technically get to 6 attacks but only for 1 squad.
2 base
1 choppa
1 warpath (1 unit only and got to manifest and not get denied)
1 ghaz (within aura range, 6' iirc)
1 greentide (20+ models)
I'm not aware of any other possible additional attacks atm.
Still, it's a hellton of attacks for points. And it's quite possible to get. However, greentide +1a is pretty easy to deny for your opponent. So, 4-5 attacks are more realistic. And now, in 8-th even this number of attacks doesn't go to waste - especially vs vehicles, tough monsters and with all those multicharges.
If ork boyz somehow manage to get s5 and bigchoppa nobz s8, it's gona be our answer to t8 vehicles. Which is good on one hand but makes a lot of other stuff in the book - especially shooty stuff - even more redundand.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: If Goffs get +1 str on the charge... holy balls. I would super charge a unit of boyz with ghazzy and warpath and greentide. 6 attacks a piece. And a banner nob nearby??
180 attacks hitting on 2s and wounding MEQ on 3s. LOL Would be 101 wounds to save hahahah.
It's wishful thinking but goffs were the stronger boy blob army and many of the space marine tactics folllowed thier lore.
To be fair tactics are just free bonuses (and all look fairly strong) and whichever army gets thier codex first is just getting more powerful for free.
+1 str is ok this edition it allows us to wound toughness 4 (such as meq) on a 3+ instead of 4+ and biker type units toughness 5 on a 4+ instead of 5+. And we can wound toughness 8/9 on a 5+ instead of 6+ (This is big and needed since we lack anti tank). But thier isn't a whole lot of toughness 5 units. but again this is just wishful thinking as the ork codex isn't out anytime soon.
EDIT: Atleast, the snark got you to give me a response to the question i asked;
(have i missed something?) you replied to that and gave me all the information I needed. Maybe snark is the way forward. It appears logically to do so, if you take into consideration the 2 posts between us.
BOOM
/snark
RULE #1 is the actual way forward.
IF you think a post breaks any of the few rules we have here, just report it using the Mod Alert button.
Badly. Nobz can take powa stabbas, which gives them 50% more attacks than burnas, +1 S (so about 33% better than burnas vs. T 4) and the same AP, for a total cost of just 20 points, so they are twice as effective for only about 50% more cost. They also have 4+ saves and 2 wounds, so they are up to four times as hard to kill.
To add insult to injury, nobz with kombi-skorchas are also better at shooting than burna boyz.
gungo wrote:I linked the post about it before on this thread (you missed that too on page 49 and then people discussed it into pg50). I was also stating it isn't worth picking up a big trakk just for a skorcha because it should have a cheaper and better profile for the supa skorcha. I'm sorry you didn't like the post but it did address your point. As I myself was going to pick up a new fw order but am waiting for the actual dataslates to be released.
The mega dread is generally close to the same profile of the meka w/o a kff option and likely 5+bs.
Instead of the rattler cannon it has a killkannon (still sold), instead of zzap gun it has a supa skorcha, and instead of shunta it has a killsaw (still sold). They both had mega chargas in 6th. With bs 5+ it's only worth taking the saw/klaw and supa skorcha.
We already know the supa skorcha only costs 28pts and the mega dread was actually cheaper last edition then the meka.
Your entire post was about how effective two supa skorcha traks would be at 600 pts. When you can likely take a single mega charga mega dread with at least 1 arm possibly 2 for ~260. And this unit can move 8+8 with a 24in range supa skorcha. It should be a cheaper and better option. The fact I told you to wait like I was doing until that data sheet came out before you spent $60 x2 for big trakk a that cost more points to do what you wanted to do for half the point costs wasn't irrelevant.
So because you missed several posts and completely missed the FAQ then decided to cry about it feel free to piss off.
I feel my sense of humour has been lost here. Most of what I was sayin' was intended as a semi-lighthearted joke mixed with observation. If you thought I was crying then sadly you are mistaken Anyways! Back to Krumpin'!
Indeed. The mega will likely be T7 like the meka, +1 attack I am hoping, or if gork is really shining on us it will have the Gorkanaut weapon profile, but I doubt it. I really like the gorka's two profile melee's, shame its like 360 points.
Vs the Bigtrakk you gain better melee potential on a cheaper base, but you cant transport anything, it also doesn't have grot riggers (although how good a 6+ regen is debateable) and is harder to get a cover save for (potentially). The Bigtrakk may still be a better options for getting into the enemy and dealing damage.
loaded with a kommandos unit at 47 points isn't much of a tax for the additional charge protection and the ability for a 5 man unit to go and take an objective. If the mega charged a unit on an objective it needs (afaik) to completely wipe them for it to outnumber them and cap the objective. whereas a bigtrakk with kommandos can unload the unit and (assuming its something like a tac squad or a small sized squad), it only needs to reduce the number of models to less than 5 for the kommandos to be capable of scoring the points. But thats all subjective. Also, if the mega advances it can't charge (unless it gets the mega charger, which gives it 1 turn of that option). So its not really of comparable mobility to the Bigtrakk. Although with a 32" threat range anyway it may not need that extra mobility.
Can someone confirm; Ramshackle monster, "Each time a Meka-Dread loses a wound from any weapon, roll a D6 – on a roll of 4+, the wound is ignored. The first time this roll is failed, the result needed is reduced to a 5+, and so on until the roll fails on a 6+ and this ability may no longer be used."
So if im hit by a D6 damage weapon, I roll this after it wounds, but before its D6 damage?
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: You dont think orks come out as one of the 6 unknown codecs before Christmas? Orktober? T'august? Nidvember?
I wish and I think we need it.
We know we have a few models waiting for release based on comments from Hastings. He stated orks have new buggy/war trakk model already completed late last year.
It's just a matter of when they are released.
Ramshackle is after the d6... it will prevent about 4 wounds if you use a cp reroll on the 4+ when it fails.
Take a meka with kff and mega with mega charga; move both 8, mega charga the mega and he's still in 9in kff range. Fire your supa skorcha and then charge the mega dread. dreads still have ere we go so reroll charges. You can reliably pull off a 8-9in charge for a 24-25 assault threat range first turn.
Add zhardsnark and a few blobs of boys including the a warpath and da jump shoota boy squad and you have decent turn 1 assault threat range. And the mega assault can help fix our lack of anti armor.
The question is if t7 16w with 5++ vs shooting and a degrading 4+ fnp enough to keep those dreads alive?
I'd probably add a big mek on bike w kff to stay with the boy blobs and he can fix the dreads as well.
someone mentioned a super unit of Burna boyz and Ghazzy for the +1 attack.
I changed it up a bit to give you a better unit, but here is how it plays out.
15 Burna boyz with Ghaz nearby have 45attacks which will hit 30 times and against T4 they will wound 15 times at -2AP. Against a 3+ save that will inflict about 10wounds, enough to kill a MEQ squad. Again TEQ it does about 7 wounds.
Now if you want to REALLY mess with them, you can make a Mega unit that will draw literally ALL The firepower on the table at you.
Ghaz, Weirdboy with Warpath, Big Mek with KFF, Painboy, Banner Nob, 14 Burna Boyz and a Battlewagon w/Rolla. Grand total? 886pts. Why do this?
14 Burna boyz with Ghaz and Weirdboy = 56 attacks hitting on 2s for 45ish hits wounding T4 22.5 times or T5-7 15 times Or T8+ 7.5 times with -2 AP.
Of course you could do the exact same with just Boyz and use footsloggin instead of a wagon and do more for less but hey you asked.
Cobra66 wrote: Does anyone know how effective Nob bikers are in 8th?
They're better than regular Warbikers, that's for sure. They're more survivable, and they can deal a lot of damage in close combat. I've been using a squad of 3-5 to accompany a Biker Warboss in a few of my games of 8th so far, and while expensive, they do make for a pretty deathstar squad, with reasonable volumes of shooting, a lot of close combat damage, and good mobility. Probably too expensive for WAAC lists, but in regular games they're reasonable.
Cobra66 wrote: Does anyone know how effective Nob bikers are in 8th?
They're better than regular Warbikers, that's for sure. They're more survivable, and they can deal a lot of damage in close combat. I've been using a squad of 3-5 to accompany a Biker Warboss in a few of my games of 8th so far, and while expensive, they do make for a pretty deathstar squad, with reasonable volumes of shooting, a lot of close combat damage, and good mobility. Probably too expensive for WAAC lists, but in regular games they're reasonable.
I think the opposite. Bikers are designed to be shooty only in this edition since they lost one attack and thanks to their speed it's difficult to give them some buffs from other characters. Nob bikers cost a lot of points and with the same budget you can field more nobz in a trukk that are more durable and effective. I'd take bikers only for their S5 shooting. Nobz only have +1W compared to regular bikers which means they go down almost as easily but a nob biker is 42 plus a big choppa or a p.klaw since no one field nobz with choppas, while a single biker is 26 points. A nob with big choppa is 51 points and has 3 wounds, two bikers are 52 points and have 4 wounds in total, not to mention their 12 shots instead of 6.
If I want a fast unit full of p.klaws I'd go with meganobz in a trukk. Still suboptimal but certainly more effective than biker nobz. 5-6 nobz with big choppas in a trukk are better IMHO and they can also share the transport with a min squad of tankbustas.
Blackie wrote: I think the opposite. Bikers are designed to be shooty only in this edition since they lost one attack and thanks to their speed it's difficult to give them some buffs from other characters.
I assure you that bikers have been a shooty unit in 5th, 6th and 7th. They were never a good assault unit since their damage output has always been the same as choppa boyz for many more points. Depending on the edition they were good for MSU scoring units, jinking hard to kill targets or for attacking weak backfield units at high speed.
In combat they never had more to show than 1 wound, a choppa, T5 and a 4+ save, striking last against almost anything. Arguably, they have never been as good in combat as they are now.
Nob bikers cost a lot of points and with the same budget you can field more nobz in a trukk that are more durable and effective. I'd take bikers only for their S5 shooting. Nobz only have +1W compared to regular bikers which means they go down almost as easily but a nob biker is 42 plus a big choppa or a p.klaw since no one field nobz with choppas, while a single biker is 26 points. A nob with big choppa is 51 points and has 3 wounds, two bikers are 52 points and have 4 wounds in total, not to mention their 12 shots instead of 6.
Nob bikers can take combi-skorchas though, allowing them to shoot 6 S5 shots and 2 S4 shots at 18" and 6 S5 shots, d6 S5 AP-2 hits and 2 S4 shots with 6+ bs at 8". With their speed they actually have the means to bring skorchas to where they are needed.
Hopefully running my Skorcha Nobs list <3 soon! Imputing some of my mass amount of thinking on this issue, I found warping HQ units would put 2 rows of biker bases in front of a back line of skorchas. However, shooting out of the 8th edition vehicle ARC. (along with 5 nobs, 5 ammo runts, and painboy/waaagh banner nob. fitting in trucks very well. Depending on what you think your opponent might or might not shoot at, a mix of trucks full of BC/skorcha nobs and warbikers/HQ's (on bikes) will remove anything besides T8, where I hope Kill-saws to be quite effective.... No boys looks very vulnerable so let us pray it hits hard enough...
The Nobz get;
-D6x10 more automatic hits at 8 inches for shooting and overwatch (roughly 35 more automatic hits)
-Str 5 in CC, which effectively gets them 3+ instead of 4+ vs T4 and 5+ instead of 6+ vs t8.
-20 Shoota shots, around 3 wounds vs t4, becomes half inside of 8" when using skorcha.
The Warbikers have;
-60 more shots between 8 and 18 inches, becomes mute inside of 8 inches when Nob Skorcha becomes effective.
-54 str4 CC attacks vs 32 str5 CC attacks, which is a little bit up to a sizeable amount more in most toughness values
-12 more wounds.
-Ten more models
It's certainly a tough comparison. I don't want to assault 35 automatic s5 hits except with something t6 with an armor save. But when my opponent points some high damage shooting at it I would cringe. You could certainly keep the lower model count in a KFF to help.
Frozocrone wrote: Do Bomb Squigs and Ammo Runts count for transport capacity?
Niggling suspicion they do which puts a damper on my Rokkit Trukk.
Have you tried bomb squigs?? The more you can field the better!! They basically auto hit (2+ with reroll) and can do huge damage! Can I ask why you think they diminish the rocket trukks potency?
Has anyone tried taking fortifications? A firestorm redoubt would give you good anti air weapons and a safe cozy spot for your lootas to sit and gun things down since you have to kill the building to get to them.
Add in a kustom force field shokk attack gun big Mek and it now has a 5++ and an extra gun thrown down range.
Could be the kind of backfield support that Orks are really missing right now...
Frozocrone wrote: Do Bomb Squigs and Ammo Runts count for transport capacity?
Niggling suspicion they do which puts a damper on my Rokkit Trukk.
Have you tried bomb squigs?? The more you can field the better!! They basically auto hit (2+ with reroll) and can do huge damage! Can I ask why you think they diminish the rocket trukks potency?
I think they mean just that they count as transport capacity units, thus for example a trukk can only carry 6 nobz if they all have ammo runts. Which they do. But you are right about the bomb squigs! think of them as even better busta's!
I feel like a 2/3 Nobz to ammo runt is the best way forward, as you have re-rolls, the ablative wounds, but still enough Nobz for murderising.
Cobra66 wrote:Which do you think would be better for transporting boyz, massive amounts of trukks or slightly less amounts of battlewagons?
If you have a huge number of boyz, then maybe BW's?
You can make them T8, they also can carry 20, so assuming you manage to get to the enemy in one piece the unit still has the +1 attack. Trukks give you more targets, but you can only ever carry 12. Barebones BW's with hardcases and rolla's/melee stuff, sounds good to me.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Has anyone tried taking fortifications? A firestorm redoubt would give you good anti air weapons and a safe cozy spot for your lootas to sit and gun things down since you have to kill the building to get to them.
Add in a kustom force field shokk attack gun big Mek and it now has a 5++ and an extra gun thrown down range.
Could be the kind of backfield support that Orks are really missing right now...
I think the Big Mek and KFF/Shokk are probably overkill. You've just bought 1 unit of lootas a fortification and protection at quite a large cost. I could see it working if somehow your list was built around lootas and you had them all in the fort. But otherwise I would take the fortification alone and stick a big loota unit on it.
Frozocrone wrote: Do Bomb Squigs and Ammo Runts count for transport capacity?
Niggling suspicion they do which puts a damper on my Rokkit Trukk.
Have you tried bomb squigs?? The more you can field the better!! They basically auto hit (2+ with reroll) and can do huge damage! Can I ask why you think they diminish the rocket trukks potency?
I was hoping to field 12 Tankbustas and 4 Squigs. But one can only fit in two Squigs.
Frozocrone wrote: Do Bomb Squigs and Ammo Runts count for transport capacity?
Niggling suspicion they do which puts a damper on my Rokkit Trukk.
Have you tried bomb squigs?? The more you can field the better!! They basically auto hit (2+ with reroll) and can do huge damage! Can I ask why you think they diminish the rocket trukks potency?
I think they mean just that they count as transport capacity units, thus for example a trukk can only carry 6 nobz if they all have ammo runts. Which they do. But you are right about the bomb squigs! think of them as even better busta's!
I feel like a 2/3 Nobz to ammo runt is the best way forward, as you have re-rolls, the ablative wounds, but still enough Nobz for murderising.
Spoiler:
Cobra66 wrote:Which do you think would be better for transporting boyz, massive amounts of trukks or slightly less amounts of battlewagons?
If you have a huge number of boyz, then maybe BW's?
You can make them T8, they also can carry 20, so assuming you manage to get to the enemy in one piece the unit still has the +1 attack. Trukks give you more targets, but you can only ever carry 12. Barebones BW's with hardcases and rolla's/melee stuff, sounds good to me.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Has anyone tried taking fortifications? A firestorm redoubt would give you good anti air weapons and a safe cozy spot for your lootas to sit and gun things down since you have to kill the building to get to them.
Add in a kustom force field shokk attack gun big Mek and it now has a 5++ and an extra gun thrown down range.
Could be the kind of backfield support that Orks are really missing right now...
I think the Big Mek and KFF/Shokk are probably overkill. You've just bought 1 unit of lootas a fortification and protection at quite a large cost. I could see it working if somehow your list was built around lootas and you had them all in the fort. But otherwise I would take the fortification alone and stick a big loota unit on it.
Having just 3 Ammo Runts allows you to have three wounds before you have to decide which Nob you are going to start killing first. It's important because once a model has lost a wound it has to have any other wounds allocated to it. A squad of 5 Nobz could have five wounds to chew through before it means anything to the squad. High Damage shot? Consume an Ammo Runt. AP -2 or greater? Consume a Runt. You effectively don't have to take vanilla nobz just to protect your weapon weilders.
Blackie wrote: I think the opposite. Bikers are designed to be shooty only in this edition since they lost one attack and thanks to their speed it's difficult to give them some buffs from other characters.
I assure you that bikers have been a shooty unit in 5th, 6th and 7th. They were never a good assault unit since their damage output has always been the same as choppa boyz for many more points. Depending on the edition they were good for MSU scoring units, jinking hard to kill targets or for attacking weak backfield units at high speed.
In combat they never had more to show than 1 wound, a choppa, T5 and a 4+ save, striking last against almost anything. Arguably, they have never been as good in combat as they are now.
I've poorly written, I meant to say that bikers are a shooty unit and not a CaC oriented one, not that in any previous edition they were good in melee and now they're not.
Nob bikers cost a lot of points and with the same budget you can field more nobz in a trukk that are more durable and effective. I'd take bikers only for their S5 shooting. Nobz only have +1W compared to regular bikers which means they go down almost as easily but a nob biker is 42 plus a big choppa or a p.klaw since no one field nobz with choppas, while a single biker is 26 points. A nob with big choppa is 51 points and has 3 wounds, two bikers are 52 points and have 4 wounds in total, not to mention their 12 shots instead of 6.
Nob bikers can take combi-skorchas though, allowing them to shoot 6 S5 shots and 2 S4 shots at 18" and 6 S5 shots, d6 S5 AP-2 hits and 2 S4 shots with 6+ bs at 8". With their speed they actually have the means to bring skorchas to where they are needed.
But with combi weapons they become even more expensive, more than 70 points with a big choppa and even 90ish with a p.klaw. Kill a 3W T5 4+ save model is quite easy, especially if you don't bring a lot vehicle since those bikers would attract all the anti tank available. It's not that easy for orks to start first, as they can't have a small number of drops but the nobz bikerz can't really survive 2 turns of shooting and even a single turn of shooting is enough to cripple them quite hard. I still think that nobz and even meganobz in a trukk are better. Bikes are good only to dispose of a decent amount of S5 shooting, but they must remain cheap.
Frozocrone wrote: Do Bomb Squigs and Ammo Runts count for transport capacity?
Niggling suspicion they do which puts a damper on my Rokkit Trukk.
Have you tried bomb squigs?? The more you can field the better!! They basically auto hit (2+ with reroll) and can do huge damage! Can I ask why you think they diminish the rocket trukks potency?
I was hoping to field 12 Tankbustas and 4 Squigs. But one can only fit in two Squigs.
Has anyone had any success with beq (buggies equivalent)?
I like the concept of fast light vehicles but they seem quite overpriced to actually be used. And they're kinda like koptas but worse cause they have no fly and bombs. Yet they cost almost the same amount of points. Yep, a bit sturdier but the damage output for points seems quite lackluster. And the price tag does not justify using them as throwaway disruption units.
koooaei wrote: Has anyone had any success with beq (buggies equivalent)?
I like the concept of fast light vehicles but they seem quite overpriced to actually be used. And they're kinda like koptas but worse cause they have no fly and bombs. Yet they cost almost the same amount of points. Yep, a bit sturdier but the damage output for points seems quite lackluster. And the price tag does not justify using them as throwaway disruption units.
I don't know about success, but I have used three kromlech wartrakks in games that I won. Always with the skorcha mounted.
They worked well as a throwaway distraction unit (or really three separate units), but they are rather expensive at 198 points the three. Their utility should be judged by enemy units lost shooting rather than their own damage output.
In one game, a skorcha flamed a havoc unit and then it charged a predator. The predator was unharmed, but had to spend a turn falling back. Then he panicked and charged the wartrakk being flamed in overwatch etc.
They are not great, but they are surprisingly tanky, and the skorcha seems to scare people more than it really should.
koooaei wrote: Has anyone had any success with beq (buggies equivalent)? I like the concept of fast light vehicles but they seem quite overpriced to actually be used. And they're kinda like koptas but worse cause they have no fly and bombs. Yet they cost almost the same amount of points. Yep, a bit sturdier but the damage output for points seems quite lackluster. And the price tag does not justify using them as throwaway disruption units.
I used a handful in a massive disruption style game. I fielded 6 units of Kommandos, deff Koptas and Buggies/skorchas. The Kommandos do exactly the same (if not more) for significantly less. The Deff Koptas drew more fire because those bombs are scary and the Buggies just kind of plinked shots at everyone and eventually got in Skorcha Range to scare people but otherwise they were pretty much ignored.
Keeping in mind I played against a competitive opponent, I.E. someone who knew what he was doing and how to prioritize threats. Against someone new to the game or unfamiliar with orks? they might be useful but Kommandos are better (just slower) and Deff Koptas are better because of the Bomb/fly rules.
Basically I don't use them in competitive games, I do have a really big Speed Freakz army though so whenever I play for fun they come out.
I found a use for them. But I still think you're better off not taking them.
I like to put lootas in the back of a trukk. Far from indestructible but it really protects them against small arms fire. The trukk is T6 10 W and with ramshackle, I find that people are reluctant to fire their bigger stuff at it. The spanner allows you to repair the trukk if it doesn't get blown up.
pismakron wrote: A nob biker with a kombiskorcha is almost as expensive as a wartrakk with skorcha. And the wartrakk has six wounds.
On another note, is there anyone who can find a use for spanners?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thought Id put it out there. I have read a few people saying they are taking the deffkopta. I think it's a huge piece of crap. Has anyone had any luck with deffkoptas?
So this weekend I have another game coming up, random opponent, don't know what he is going to bring nor what armies he has. I am planning on running a heavy foot sloggin list with HUGE distraction saturation.
So I was thinking of
Vanguard Detachment: (260) Weirdboy (warpath)
Kommandos (Nob and 2 burnas) Mad Dok Banner Nob
Vanguard Detachment: (197) Weirdboy (Warpath)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas) Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas) Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Outrider Detachment: (798) Ghaz
Deff Koptas x 3 Deff Koptas x 3 Stormboyz x 20 (w/Nob)
Battalion Detachment: (740)
Big Mek w/ KFF Weirdboy: Warpath
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob) Boyz x 30 (w/Nob) Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Kommandos 7 (W/nob 2 Burnas)
With 18 drops I am both assuming and HOPING to go last. Why? Because I want him to move his stuff forward (hoping he isn't smart) and get into charge range of my Orkz. If not? it spreads his forces out a bit more which gives me room and a chance to drop 5 Units of Kommandos and 2 units of Deff Koptas behind his lines and destroy his backline or assault his main force from behind while MY Main force advances forward. Stormboyz can most likely get in range turn 1 if he advances so I have that going for me as well, one of my Weirdboyz is going to Jump one of my big squads of boyz into his backlines as well because why not? The other 2 units will be bunched together under the KFF and in range of Grotsnik to provide that all important 5++ and 6+ FNP, Ghaz and the Banner nob will also be wedged in there as well to give everyone +1 attack and +1 to hit and the other 2 Weirdboyz will be advancing inside the blob as well to provide warpath to anyone who needs it
Cobra66 wrote: Which do you think would be better for transporting boyz, massive amounts of trukks or slightly less amounts of battlewagons?
With the cost of transports now, loading boyz into them seems like a dubious proposition.
Trukk is fewer points per transport slot, which is what you need when you are transporting a load of models. Also, more wounds per point.
Battlewagon lets you transport a mob of twenty, allowing you to take advantage of mob rule. Also uses a heavy support slot, which might help you fill out a detachment.
If I was going to run a mechanised list, I think I'd go with one battlewagon of boyz for the mob rule and the rest in trukks or all in trukks.
So this weekend I have another game coming up, random opponent, don't know what he is going to bring nor what armies he has. I am planning on running a heavy foot sloggin list with HUGE distraction saturation.
So I was thinking of
Vanguard Detachment: (260)
Weirdboy (warpath)
Kommandos (Nob and 2 burnas)
Mad Dok
Banner Nob
Vanguard Detachment: (197)
Weirdboy (Warpath)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Outrider Detachment: (798)
Ghaz
Deff Koptas x 3
Deff Koptas x 3
Stormboyz x 20 (w/Nob)
Battalion Detachment: (740)
Big Mek w/ KFF Weirdboy: Warpath
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Kommandos 7 (W/nob 2 Burnas)
With 18 drops I am both assuming and HOPING to go last. Why? Because I want him to move his stuff forward (hoping he isn't smart) and get into charge range of my Orkz. If not? it spreads his forces out a bit more which gives me room and a chance to drop 5 Units of Kommandos and 2 units of Deff Koptas behind his lines and destroy his backline or assault his main force from behind while MY Main force advances forward. Stormboyz can most likely get in range turn 1 if he advances so I have that going for me as well, one of my Weirdboyz is going to Jump one of my big squads of boyz into his backlines as well because why not? The other 2 units will be bunched together under the KFF and in range of Grotsnik to provide that all important 5++ and 6+ FNP, Ghaz and the Banner nob will also be wedged in there as well to give everyone +1 attack and +1 to hit and the other 2 Weirdboyz will be advancing inside the blob as well to provide warpath to anyone who needs it
Unfortunately, I don't see the Kommandos and Koptas doing much damage. Some of them will make their charges, and hopefully that will tie up some units, but I don't see them surviving turn 2. The blobs will wreck a few units. Against a tank/knight list you really don't have any offense.
I wish an army like this would work. Tell us if you use it.
So this weekend I have another game coming up, random opponent, don't know what he is going to bring nor what armies he has. I am planning on running a heavy foot sloggin list with HUGE distraction saturation.
So I was thinking of
Vanguard Detachment: (260)
Weirdboy (warpath)
Kommandos (Nob and 2 burnas)
Mad Dok
Banner Nob
Vanguard Detachment: (197)
Weirdboy (Warpath)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Outrider Detachment: (798)
Ghaz
Deff Koptas x 3
Deff Koptas x 3
Stormboyz x 20 (w/Nob)
Battalion Detachment: (740)
Big Mek w/ KFF Weirdboy: Warpath
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Kommandos 7 (W/nob 2 Burnas)
With 18 drops I am both assuming and HOPING to go last. Why? Because I want him to move his stuff forward (hoping he isn't smart) and get into charge range of my Orkz. If not? it spreads his forces out a bit more which gives me room and a chance to drop 5 Units of Kommandos and 2 units of Deff Koptas behind his lines and destroy his backline or assault his main force from behind while MY Main force advances forward. Stormboyz can most likely get in range turn 1 if he advances so I have that going for me as well, one of my Weirdboyz is going to Jump one of my big squads of boyz into his backlines as well because why not? The other 2 units will be bunched together under the KFF and in range of Grotsnik to provide that all important 5++ and 6+ FNP, Ghaz and the Banner nob will also be wedged in there as well to give everyone +1 attack and +1 to hit and the other 2 Weirdboyz will be advancing inside the blob as well to provide warpath to anyone who needs it
Unfortunately, I don't see the Kommandos and Koptas doing much damage. Some of them will make their charges, and hopefully that will tie up some units, but I don't see them surviving turn 2. The blobs will wreck a few units. Against a tank/knight list you really don't have any offense.
I wish an army like this would work. Tell us if you use it.
Yup, I am hoping to god he doesn't bring any Super Heavies for that exact reason.
The Kommandos and Koptas are only there as distraction units, I am hoping my Koptas get at least a bombing run off but if not they will still do there job of drawing fire. The heavy hitters are going to be those Boyz entirely. I actually thought a lot about taking 1 unit of Koptas out and fielding another blob.
Hey, how do you guys deal with those annoying Stormraven spam?
I tried lootas and tankbustas with little success, those flying "land raider" are very hard to dislodge and kept pooping mahreens and dreads everywhere hindering my boyz from getting around.
fr3ddy wrote: Hey, how do you guys deal with those annoying Stormraven spam?
I tried lootas and tankbustas with little success, those flying "land raider" are very hard to dislodge and kept pooping mahreens and dreads everywhere hindering my boyz from getting around.
Sadly there is no answer in our codex as of yet. We suck at shooting and only Stormboyz can assault them and they aren't effective at doing that.
Fully buffed a unit of 15 stormboyz can manage 5 attacks each (2 base, 1 ghaz, 1 Weirdboy, 1choppa) and hit on 2s (Banner Nob) that is 75 attacks, of those you will get about 25 wounds (wounding on 5s) with a 3+ save thats 8 wounds. That is pretty good right? Stormboyz get shot off the table easy as hell, add to that you are investing the better part of 600ish points into that single unit to kill 1 storm raven and it still only takes it down 8 wounds? Yeah good luck.
The ONLY way to kill a storm raven reliably is with boys hordes. By flooding the play area and spreading out your boys so that someone with several stormravens has to hover or it will fly off the board or be within 1 in with its large base to a unit.
Once a stormraven loses hover it loses the -1 to hit and can also be assaulted by ground troops. Flyers have predictable movement unless it hovers.
Other than that we are screwed vs flyers. Unless you have stormboys w kff or supa skorchas big trakk or hopefully mega dread and none of these options are really good.
Going to field 2x3 and see what weapons work best, starting with Grot Zookas and Rokkit.
I tried them awhile back and they worked ok...ish.
They aren't as heavily over priced as last edition but that isn't saying much. Grotzookas don't work nearly as well as they used to 2D3 = 4 shots on average so 2 hits on average. before you could liquidate entire squads of Marines with Grotzookas, now they kind of just plink around not doing much, especially with their piss poor accuracy.
I ran mine with Rokkitz and they worked well as a distraction unit with decent durability. Shooting wise they are ok with Rokkitz but you are paying 12pts for a single Rokkit shot that has a 50/50 to hit and has short range (24 inches). I don't know i am torn because I love them so much but they suck so bad LOL. Best bet is to spam the ever loving hell out of them and provide target saturation so they don't die. Also, they aren't very good in CC so beware.
fr3ddy wrote: Hey, how do you guys deal with those annoying Stormraven spam?
I tried lootas and tankbustas with little success, those flying "land raider" are very hard to dislodge and kept pooping mahreens and dreads everywhere hindering my boyz from getting around.
Smite spam? You won't down them, but a boy blob with a weirdboy in it right in the flyer's path might make it the closest thing for a couple of turns. Then Tankbustas, maybe.
A single stormraven is tough but can be killed or at least damaged enough to reduce its effectiveness, a list with only stormravens is an hard counter for orks. You can only ignore them, go for objectives and pray that the game will end with at least one ork alive.
Since we are talking about a maxspam Stormraven list, let's spam orkz. The Tankbustas in this could do around 23 or 24 damage to a Stormraven in a turn. They rest in a T7 battlewagon (the twin assault cannon on SR is S6)that will have a 5+ invul to heavier fire. The 3 niche traktor kannonz are only there to fire at a Stormraven with four or less wounds, the payoff being the mortal wounds if you can blow it up next to other Stormravens (you need to hit four targets with the explosion otherwise Kannonz might just be better). Zagstrukk could just be another weirdboy, more Smite, I added him as a placeholder (he can smack fliers tho).
This could be better maybe by dropping the stormboyz and going for another vangaurd set and making the Tankbusta squads smaller, so that if you can close to within 6 inches somehow you will have more melta bombs. If you wanted to go with a safer bet you could also drop the Traktor Kannonz for more TBs or weirdboyz. Smite spam is nice if you can get it.
Here is more MSU, more melta grenades and mortal wound spam, and a Wazbomb blasta gimmick to try and stop Stormravens inside of 5 wounds. It is five drops, 3 Wagonz, a Bike, a Jet, might even fet to go first, not that the TBs would be in range necessarily.
SemperMortis wrote: So this weekend I have another game coming up, random opponent, don't know what he is going to bring nor what armies he has. I am planning on running a heavy foot sloggin list with HUGE distraction saturation.
So I was thinking of
Vanguard Detachment: (260)
Weirdboy (warpath)
Kommandos (Nob and 2 burnas)
Mad Dok
Banner Nob
Vanguard Detachment: (197)
Weirdboy (Warpath)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Outrider Detachment: (798)
Ghaz
Deff Koptas x 3
Deff Koptas x 3
Stormboyz x 20 (w/Nob)
Battalion Detachment: (740)
Big Mek w/ KFF Weirdboy: Warpath
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Kommandos 7 (W/nob 2 Burnas)
With 18 drops I am both assuming and HOPING to go last. Why? Because I want him to move his stuff forward (hoping he isn't smart) and get into charge range of my Orkz. If not? it spreads his forces out a bit more which gives me room and a chance to drop 5 Units of Kommandos and 2 units of Deff Koptas behind his lines and destroy his backline or assault his main force from behind while MY Main force advances forward. Stormboyz can most likely get in range turn 1 if he advances so I have that going for me as well, one of my Weirdboyz is going to Jump one of my big squads of boyz into his backlines as well because why not? The other 2 units will be bunched together under the KFF and in range of Grotsnik to provide that all important 5++ and 6+ FNP, Ghaz and the Banner nob will also be wedged in there as well to give everyone +1 attack and +1 to hit and the other 2 Weirdboyz will be advancing inside the blob as well to provide warpath to anyone who needs it
Just a reminder that in matched play, you can only cast each power once (except smite, which is unlimited), no matter how many of your psykers know it. So if you only want warpath and jump, might boil it down to two weirdboyz. Or you could have the third to smite spam, which makes total sense.
SemperMortis wrote: So this weekend I have another game coming up, random opponent, don't know what he is going to bring nor what armies he has. I am planning on running a heavy foot sloggin list with HUGE distraction saturation.
So I was thinking of
Vanguard Detachment: (260)
Weirdboy (warpath)
Kommandos (Nob and 2 burnas)
Mad Dok
Banner Nob
Vanguard Detachment: (197)
Weirdboy (Warpath)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Kommados (Nob and 2 burnas)
Outrider Detachment: (798)
Ghaz
Deff Koptas x 3
Deff Koptas x 3
Stormboyz x 20 (w/Nob)
Battalion Detachment: (740)
Big Mek w/ KFF Weirdboy: Warpath
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Boyz x 30 (w/Nob)
Kommandos 7 (W/nob 2 Burnas)
With 18 drops I am both assuming and HOPING to go last. Why? Because I want him to move his stuff forward (hoping he isn't smart) and get into charge range of my Orkz. If not? it spreads his forces out a bit more which gives me room and a chance to drop 5 Units of Kommandos and 2 units of Deff Koptas behind his lines and destroy his backline or assault his main force from behind while MY Main force advances forward. Stormboyz can most likely get in range turn 1 if he advances so I have that going for me as well, one of my Weirdboyz is going to Jump one of my big squads of boyz into his backlines as well because why not? The other 2 units will be bunched together under the KFF and in range of Grotsnik to provide that all important 5++ and 6+ FNP, Ghaz and the Banner nob will also be wedged in there as well to give everyone +1 attack and +1 to hit and the other 2 Weirdboyz will be advancing inside the blob as well to provide warpath to anyone who needs it
As was mentioned in matched play you can only cast each psychic power once, so I would likely change out at least 1 warpath to Da jump, though it sounds from your strategy you are. I might even opt of 2 Da-jump wierdboyz, as I find the power more flexible overall.
Yeah that was me typing and not paying attention. IE copy pasting. 2 Will have Warpath and 1 will have Da Jump. The 2nd Warpath one is both an insurance policy for warpath AND smite spam.
In my opinion Warpath is just better then Da Jump in this particular list specifically because I already have 1 Da Jump Weirdboy and he doesn't need any backup.
Has anyone yet been able to down a flyer by board control in 8th? If you don't allow it space to move it will have to fly off the board. Hoard orks might be able to do this.
Flying land raiders aside, how do we deal with the regular land raiders, or monstrous creatures sitting at T8?
Very new to the game, but played into a Tyranid army with 2 tervigons, and Genestealers 5++'s.
Put in a bunch of flash gitz shots/Badrukk shots into the genestealers, only ended up taking out 4-5 before they made it across the board.
Took 2 rounds of shooting with tankbustas and kan rockets to take down a single tervigon, and a nob w/ power klaw still had to come in to do 6 wounds to it in melee. 5+ FNP from catalyst is a pain in the ass to negate.
Maybe I didn't have enough dakka, but it seems like orks really struggle with taking down T8's, even moreso with non-vehicles?
ajax_xaja wrote: Flying land raiders aside, how do we deal with the regular land raiders, or monstrous creatures sitting at T8?
Very new to the game, but played into a Tyranid army with 2 tervigons, and Genestealers 5++'s.
Put in a bunch of flash gitz shots/Badrukk shots into the genestealers, only ended up taking out 4-5 before they made it across the board.
Took 2 rounds of shooting with tankbustas and kan rockets to take down a single tervigon, and a nob w/ power klaw still had to come in to do 6 wounds to it in melee. 5+ FNP from catalyst is a pain in the ass to negate.
Maybe I didn't have enough dakka, but it seems like orks really struggle with taking down T8's, even moreso with non-vehicles?
Advice appreciated.
If you can get a gorkanaut into melee with it, that's a good option. If you can keep the naut above 25% health, that's 5 attacks hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+, AP -4 Dd6. Or weirdboyz spamming smite.
JimOnMars wrote: Has anyone yet been able to down a flyer by board control in 8th? If you don't allow it space to move it will have to fly off the board. Hoard orks might be able to do this.
to many flyers can hover so that they don't need to fly off the board. However if it hovers it can be assaulted.
JimOnMars wrote: Has anyone yet been able to down a flyer by board control in 8th? If you don't allow it space to move it will have to fly off the board. Hoard orks might be able to do this.
to many flyers can hover so that they don't need to fly off the board. However if it hovers it can be assaulted.
And in the assault your boyz will be wounding on 5s against a 3+ armor save. 30 Choppa boyz will hit 90 times and wound 30 times and against that 3+ they will inflict 10 wounds on average. The Stormraven has 14 wounds. A Nob with PK will hit 2 times and wound 2 times on average and do another 2D3 wounds though, but still it can then fly away and shoot the crap out of you. Keep in mind as well, when you charge it gets to overwatch and will hit 2 times with the AC and 1 tie with the HB and about 4 times with the Twin Hurricane bolters. You will lose about 5 models just from this overwatch.
The scary part is when it isn't in hover and it gets 1 turn to shoot at you from distance and 1 from close range. At 13+ inches it inflicts (on average) 9 wounds at -1AP and 4 wounds that get a 6+ save, forgetting the Missile Launcher. So in one turn at 13-24in range this thing is inflict 11 dead orkz on average, 12 if he shoots the ML at you. At 1-12in range it his you with 9 wounds from the AC and HB that you can't save and 8 wounds from the Hurricane Bolter which you will save 1 on average. 17 or 18 dead Orkz each turn at this range. It is literally wiping out over 100pts of Ork boyz every turn.
Scary stuff. I think honestly that is still our best option though, space out everybody and hope he has to move to hover mode and then do your best to keep him locked in combat.
JimOnMars wrote: Has anyone yet been able to down a flyer by board control in 8th? If you don't allow it space to move it will have to fly off the board. Hoard orks might be able to do this.
to many flyers can hover so that they don't need to fly off the board. However if it hovers it can be assaulted.
And in the assault your boyz will be wounding on 5s against a 3+ armor save. 30 Choppa boyz will hit 90 times and wound 30 times and against that 3+ they will inflict 10 wounds on average. The Stormraven has 14 wounds. A Nob with PK will hit 2 times and wound 2 times on average and do another 2D3 wounds though, but still it can then fly away and shoot the crap out of you. Keep in mind as well, when you charge it gets to overwatch and will hit 2 times with the AC and 1 tie with the HB and about 4 times with the Twin Hurricane bolters. You will lose about 5 models just from this overwatch.
The scary part is when it isn't in hover and it gets 1 turn to shoot at you from distance and 1 from close range. At 13+ inches it inflicts (on average) 9 wounds at -1AP and 4 wounds that get a 6+ save, forgetting the Missile Launcher. So in one turn at 13-24in range this thing is inflict 11 dead orkz on average, 12 if he shoots the ML at you. At 1-12in range it his you with 9 wounds from the AC and HB that you can't save and 8 wounds from the Hurricane Bolter which you will save 1 on average. 17 or 18 dead Orkz each turn at this range. It is literally wiping out over 100pts of Ork boyz every turn.
Scary stuff. I think honestly that is still our best option though, space out everybody and hope he has to move to hover mode and then do your best to keep him locked in combat.
Do Flyers have a minimum move or something? Interesting stuff.
I'm hoping that vehicle facings return (not for AV values, rather for firing points and line of sight). I find it ludicrous that my mates Shadowsword was able to take a shot against my other mates Titan because the aerial could see a head crest.
Weaken it with shooty stuff, smite it down, MSU squads of stormboys, and let it hover where stuff like boyz or nobs will finish it.
They are a huge pain in the ass but in small numbers you can handle them.
Like SemperMortis said, force them to hover is, with the exception of mass shooting probably our best option and with Wyrdboy, Kommandos, Stormboys and Grots we have the modells to do so.
Especially if you go fully horde which will make AT useless and rock at fieldcontroll & Maelstrom missions.
Still the firepower we have to endure is huge...
Flying land raiders aside, how do we deal with the regular land raiders, or monstrous creatures sitting at T8?
Very new to the game, but played into a Tyranid army with 2 tervigons, and Genestealers 5++'s.
Put in a bunch of flash gitz shots/Badrukk shots into the genestealers, only ended up taking out 4-5 before they made it across the board.
Took 2 rounds of shooting with tankbustas and kan rockets to take down a single tervigon, and a nob w/ power klaw still had to come in to do 6 wounds to it in melee. 5+ FNP from catalyst is a pain in the ass to negate.
Maybe I didn't have enough dakka, but it seems like orks really struggle with taking down T8's, even moreso with non-vehicles?
Advice appreciated.
As for the Tervigon, ignore it. It`s just a huge fire magnet and there are more important targets.
Just try to kill Termagaunt squads, especially the ones that have hidden devourers, in one turn so the Tervi can`t add 10 gaunts for free in his turn and make them live forever.
If he spawns a new squad he has to pay points for them before battle and this 10 fleshbearer gaunts are no big deal for orks.
Only take on the Tervi if you have no ther targets for your AT weapons or if you need to kill it late game because it sits on a objective marker.
Did your Flash Gits have ammorunts? Extra LP and rerolls are really good on them, even better when Badrukk let them reroll 1`s.
For T8 bring nobs, S5 / S10 deals pretty good with it, add Wyrdboy / banner to it for a better punch.
Basicly all their CC weapons are good here.
Yes, flyers have a minimum move, and if they can't make their minimum move, they're destroyed (including if it's forced to fly off the table). There are rules in the Death from Above section at the back of the book that detail using "ongoing reserves" and leaving combat airspace, but in the core rules flyers just die if they're forced to move off the table.
They're not great in combat at all. But the Wreckin' Ball isn't a bad use of the 3 points, because the trucks go from being anemic to at least having the potential to do ...something. And if you're playing w/ power ratings instead, you might as well throw it on there. Their main job is either tying up units or eating small-arms overwatch. And they can do that just fine.
I was looking at taking a big mek with a choppa and kff. I've only been able to find an old metal model for this. Is there anneasy conversion to make this. Or can you make it out of another kit?
Thor0298 wrote: I was looking at taking a big mek with a choppa and kff. I've only been able to find an old metal model for this. Is there anneasy conversion to make this. Or can you make it out of another kit?
So I just learned that this fine model is no longer up for sale.
I am sure you will find it on 'bay, for quite some money I guess.
For other options: there are KFF parts in the Mega Armoured Nobs kit as well as the Dakkajet kit (the newer version with all the mek parts added). Some minor work on a plastic Nob then should do the trick. For a cheaper version: you could add some "mekky bitz" to a backback and call it a KFF. Maybe do a Google image search for "kustom force field" for some inspiration. It really depends on how "official" you want the result to look.
If you want a big mek with KFF just take a regular nob, give him a 40mm base, add one of the burnaboyz tank as a backpack and position the KFF from the meganobz kit in top of it. In the nobz box there are a couple of heads that fit the bik mek concept, I've used one of the nob bikers' head because IMHO it looks suited for a big mek. Cheap and effective, here's mine:
Most ork characters other than a warboss are basically nobz with fancier gear. My 2 painboyz and a wierdboy are nob conversions. That basically was one of the two uses of regular nobz in 7-th. The second one was as a squad leader for boyz.
Rismonite wrote: At least put a mekboy head on him you unimmersive gitz
Automatically Appended Next Post: You should be able to find tons of them in the Loota box we don't make any Spannaboyz with.. cause that's dumb
The mek head form the lootas/burna box is a bit small, is boyz sized. There's an official big mek head in the meganobz kit and other two in the nobz box that are perfect. I've chosen the nob biker head because IMHO it looks more suitable for a big mek, a meganob or a painboy rather than a biker.
Had a fun 2k match Yarrick vs Ghazkull today. We ended up playing maelstrom for the first time in 8th and it ended up being really close. IG castled up in spearhead assault which allowed me to pile into more combats. MVPs were kommandos, all my ork characters and a bubblechukka that took twelve wounds off a baneblade.
Creed
Yarrick
Pask in Punisher
Primaris Psyker
Master of ordinance
3 x10 Tempestus
Russ with Autocannons/heavy bolters
2 Hydras
2 Manticores
Baneblade
Turn1
Spoiler:
Deployment ended up being the slanted hammer and anvil with tactical escalation mission. Orks ended up going first by putting all the characters in the battlewagon with the tankbustas. The whole army advances and does minimal shooting, tankbustas put a couple of wounds on Pask. The kommandos appear next to the manticores and make they're charge and pile into one hydra both sides doing nothing but crucially trying up half the artillery. The boys start to defend an objective for 2 points. IG has some shuffling around and three tempestus squads dropping in front of his tanks to keep me from charging them. Yarrick making everyone reroll failed hits against orks and Pask and his punisher hitting on 2+ hurts. 16 boyz in each squad dies and the wagon is down to 6 wounds. The kommandos die from shooting after the other two fall back giving first blood. 4 boyz run away because I forget to get a warboss out and the other auto passes from command points. He throws away his objective to claim a spot on my side of the board. Score 0-1 IG
Turn 2
Spoiler:
Everything rides on this turn as all the characters hop off the battlewagon and we advance up to the tempestus squads. The big mek heals the battlewagon for four wounds thanks to his oiler. We get warpath off and one boyz squad and smite kills a few tempestus. In shooting, the tankbustas zero in on Pask and blow up his Russ with 6 damage from a bomb squig even through psychic buffed armor. Mek gunz puts wounds on the baneblade. Everyone else takes a few tempestus out here and there and then charges in killing all three squads with both boyz and the characters. One squad of boyz piles into the Russ to stop it from shooting. Orks earn 2 points for defending from last turn and another from holding a different point. IG's vengeance is strong killing both boyz squads and the battlewagon after the russ falls back to Creed and Yarricks hill. Baneblade starts to defend an obj for 2 points. Score 3-1 Orks
Turn 3
Spoiler:
I start to sense victory as all the characters advance where they need to go. Smite reliably chips wounds off things and the only shooting I have left is Tankbustas and Mek Gunz into the baneblade. One rokkit gets through as well as some damage from KMK. However hilariously the baneblade loses twelve wounds to the bubblechucka after rolling a 5,6,6, and a 1 rerolled to a 3. I put the three into AP and he gave me five shots, ended up with two unsaved wounds. Ghazkull charges Creed, Yarrick and the last Russ with a Weirdboy(died to overwatch) the MA Boss(dies to interrupt CC) and Grotsnik to try and finish off the Baneblade. Ghaz kills Creed and Russ but Yarrick survives with one wound and the Baneblade lives with three remaining wounds. At this point IG decides to surrender after looking at cards and the store closing in ten minutes. Orks earn warlord, Assassinate, claim obj and linebreaker while IG draws hold the line and claim his defending objective. In a perfect world he might of been able to fall back with the baneblade and killed Ghaz, Grotsnik, a weirdboy, ten grots and the deff dread with the heavily wounded blade and artillery for hold the line and warlord getting a draw but we ended with the score 7-4 for Orks. If we had more turns the dread and ghaz was ready to smash up the artillery with mek guns hopefully able to finish off the baneblade for a table
After reading your report and playing two games with ghaz..it's becoming increasingly clear that ghaz is essential. Almost auto include for me at this point. He is a fething monster in combat, buff to infantry is amazing and he is so so so durable. Last game saw him charge into combat, grabbing the relic in the process, murdering an entire squad of veterans, standing there taking fire from auto cannon teams and lemon Russ variants of all kinds. And chuckling.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: After reading your report and playing two games with ghaz..it's becoming increasingly clear that ghaz is essential. Almost auto include for me at this point. He is a fething monster in combat, buff to infantry is amazing and he is so so so durable. Last game saw him charge into combat, grabbing the relic in the process, murdering an entire squad of veterans, standing there taking fire from auto cannon teams and lemon Russ variants of all kinds. And chuckling.
My only complaint about ghaz, and it isn't really a complaint so much as a wish list for him would be to make his +1 attack an aura buff that wasn't situational. IE it was constant as opposed to requiring the charge.
But yeah I completely agree, I have yet to play a game where I didn't take him. That +1 teamed with the choppas, teamed with the weirdboy teamed with 20+ models teamed with a banner nob....and you have 180 attacks hitting on 2s
It is a lot of fun to see the look of sheer horror on your opponents face when you tell them how many attacks you get
What is everyone seeing in the Weirdboy? I'm hearing a lot of a chatter about it...
Warpath is certainly a great power, sure, but Da Jump does leave you with a 9" charge range which, even with the re-roll, isn't thaat good? I suppose if it's a huge unit turn 1 then great but that means you have to take such a unit to make the most of it (not that that's a bad thing, as others have said, big units are very viable, but for those of us who like playing Speed Freeks it's a bit of a shame). *edit* Oh wait you can choose your powers now... Ok, this does make them a lot better, able to choose which power you want based on what unit you'll be pairing them with (i.e. big mob for Da Jump and Warpath for smaller ones)
Are there any other units that people feel are auto-includes, or excellent? I've only just got back from living abroad and had a chance to read through the new rules, but to me, the characters, Warbikers, Kommandos and regular Nobz are looking like good choices.
I'm also definitely in the pro-PK camp. The -1 to hit is a shame, but it's a fair trade-off to be able to swing it first if you get the charge, and there's ways the army can offset the -1.
Even with a failed charge, Da Jumping 30 boyz scares the bleep out of people. Jump 30 shootas and roll 60 dice behind their lines...it looks like a deathstar even though it isn't. They'll have to deal with all those boyz. Depending on your meta, your opponent may not have enough anti-infantry, in which case he is in trouble.
Plus Smite is so dang reliable, almost auto-hitting D3 and frequently getting D6 moral wounds on things. You have to position the weirdboy correctly to try to get multiple turns of smiting onto important stuff.
Nothing else in our index can so reliably give mortal wounds.
The Shadow wrote: What is everyone seeing in the Weirdboy? I'm hearing a lot of a chatter about it...
Warpath is certainly a great power, sure, but Da Jump does leave you with a 9" charge range which, even with the re-roll, isn't thaat good? I suppose if it's a huge unit turn 1 then great but that means you have to take such a unit to make the most of it (not that that's a bad thing, as others have said, big units are very viable, but for those of us who like playing Speed Freeks it's a bit of a shame). *edit* Oh wait you can choose your powers now... Ok, this does make them a lot better, able to choose which power you want based on what unit you'll be pairing them with (i.e. big mob for Da Jump and Warpath for smaller ones)
Are there any other units that people feel are auto-includes, or excellent? I've only just got back from living abroad and had a chance to read through the new rules, but to me, the characters, Warbikers, Kommandos and regular Nobz are looking like good choices.
I'm also definitely in the pro-PK camp. The -1 to hit is a shame, but it's a fair trade-off to be able to swing it first if you get the charge, and there's ways the army can offset the -1.
I'd say nobz with power stabbas would be a great asset if you're planning to spam a trukk based list ala speed freaks.
Nobz are made for trukks this edition. You have the option of adding cheap wounds through ammo runts to absorb the trukk's explosion, while the trukk's capacity means transporting boyz is lackluster in comparison as they're denied their+1 attack buff.
Power stabbas are some of our more point efficient wargear options, and in an edition where spam is king you'll want to keep your nobz squads cheap.
Had a game of tau vs orks. Incidentally, i was playing tau - cause we had an arguement that "OMG tau are crap now" and i was thinking that they were pretty ok - just kinda in the ork boat where only 1/4 of the units were good. So, we decided to just play it out and see how it goes. Also, it might be interesting for those who wonder how ork bikers fare now.
Orks had:
2 biker bosses with big choppas
~8*5 bikers - all with barebones nobz
4*12-13 kommandoes with burnas
Tau had:
2 crysis commanders with burst cannons and drones
1 crysis commander with fusion guns and drones
1 flying coldstar commander
5*5 fire warriors
10 kroots
3*3 sniper drones
sniper marksman
2 devilfishes
Ghostkeel with burst cannons, ion raker, drones
Orks got 1-st turn cause they had fewer units. Tau didn't manage to steal.
Orks advanced everything and even after the advance killed 4 fire warriors + dealt a wound to a devilfish and a ghostkeel with dakkaguns. 2 squads of kommandoes arrived in front of the kroots, shot their guns, killed a model or two here and there and failed their charges. The lone fire warrior passed ld. Orks, however, scored 3 maelstorm vp for controlling the center.
In return tau killed 3 bikers, 11/13 kommandoes from one squad and around 7/13 from another. Blocked the way to left flank bikers and a warlord boss with a ghostkeel, tied up 2*5 bikers on the right flank with a devilfish and kommandoes with another one. After all the chopping was done, 10 bikers dealt 2 wounds to a devilfish bringing it down to 9 wounds, kommandoes suffered casualties from ld and a devilfish's lucky 6-s in mellee and in the end there was only 1 nob left. However, tau only scored 1-st blood.
Than the rest of the bikers moved forward, shot the guns killing all the kroot, finishing off a lone fire warrior and killing another 4 from another squad. A squad of bikers and a boss charged the devilfish that has tied up 10 bikers, on the other flank 3 squads of bikers charged a ghostkeel but the warlord boss failed a charge and was left a bit behind. Another squad of bikers charged a tau warlord commander. Bikers took a couple casualties from overwatch across the board but nothing more. In mellee 14 bikers put 4 wounds on a ghostkeel while 15 bikers and a warboss dealt 8 wounds to a devilfish leaving it hanging with 1 wound. 2 squads of kommandoes arrived and surrounded 2 commanders, managed to charge one and togeter with shooting killed 2 drones and dealt 4 wounds to a burst cannon commander. One surviving kommando nob was too far from a devilfish to be locked in combat, so he ran towards fire warriors, took a wound on overwatch and charged them killing one. Orks scored a couple more maelstorm points. Orks 5 - Tau 1.
All tau flying stuff disengaged, one devilfish moved towards 14 bikers and tied them up using their tight placement. Took around 3-4 wounds. 1 wounded kommando nob forced 4 tau firewarriors to disengage and than ate the shooting of 3 firewarrior squads, 6 drones and even a sniper team passing 4 4+ saves (thanks to being super sneaky in the woods) but than eventually succumbed. Fusion commander arrived and together with a sniper drone put 6 wounds on a biker warlord leaving him with 1. The rest of tau shooting killed around 8 bikers on the right flank (where the 1-wound devilfish has just been. 2 commanders killed a squad of kommandoes to get on a point, though another 13-strong squad was dangerously near. Tau scored 2 VP. Orks 5 - Tau 3.
Wounded warboss charged a devilfish and together with 14 bikers killed it. Other boss and a bunch of bikers - around 2*5 and 1*2 bikers i think) moved towards a warlord commander and a ghostkeel. They shot some firewarriors down and charged the commander. Though, only dealt 2 wounds to a commander - 3+ and 6+++ were hot - bikers also killed a couple drones. In return a commander, a ghostkeel and a couple drones that were left killed 2 bikers (1 was allready wounded). 13 kommandoes shot down a burst commander with burnas and charged a coldstar commander but failed to kill him.
Tau once again disengaged and killed a lot of stuff - fusion commander alone took down 3 bikers, sniper drones finished off a warlord and the rest of the bikers just kept failing 4+ saves and had a couple crappy ld rolls. So, only 2-3 bikers and a boss were left down from like 20 - almost 1/3 of which died to failed ld cause the boss was down.
So, orks lost, however it was a very close game. And i know ork's weaknesses inside out, so i exploited them as much as i could. For example, tau would be in serious trouble if he left more space in between biker squads cause devilfishes managed to delay his bikers. However, i'd not say that orks really struggled to take down those 12w t7 3+ tanks. On the contrary - bikers basically killed them in 1 turn when i charged. But it was enough to concentrate the firepower on untied squads. Also, i underestimated the durability of bikers vs non-multi-wound weapons. It was pretty decent. I'd even say that it went up a bit compared to 7-th bikers. But multi-wound weapons can be a real problem. Sure, 1 fusion commander costs >150 pts, so him killing 3 bikes a turn is not that bad. But what if you face imperium plasma? Or basically anything else decent with d2.
All in all, bikes were not that bad. They were extremely fast. Had decent shooting for ork standards. And were passable in mellee. They lived better than i had anticipated. But they really need big choppas to deal with tougher stuff a bit faster. Especially larger squads. You also need to keep squads that have 5+ bikers close to a boss.
Larger units of kommandoes were not impressive. Huge ld issues. Really bad durability. ~50% chance to charge from the get go. I prefer smaller squads but i can see why he took larger ones. Going first is a must for such an offensive army.
wtwlf123 wrote:Weirdboyz, Ghaz, Warboss on Bike, Boyz, Stormboyz, Waaagh! Banner Nobz, Deffkoptaz and Lootas.
Skipped over the Deffkoptas... Yeah they do seem great. Cheap way to get an extra CP with the fast attack Detachment as well. And yeah Waagh Banners, of course. Them being characters is pretty huge.
JimOnMars wrote:Even with a failed charge, Da Jumping 30 boyz scares the bleep out of people. Jump 30 shootas and roll 60 dice behind their lines...it looks like a deathstar even though it isn't. They'll have to deal with all those boyz. Depending on your meta, your opponent may not have enough anti-infantry, in which case he is in trouble.
Plus Smite is so dang reliable, almost auto-hitting D3 and frequently getting D6 moral wounds on things. You have to position the weirdboy correctly to try to get multiple turns of smiting onto important stuff.
Nothing else in our index can so reliably give mortal wounds.
Very true. Don't think I have 30 shoota boyz to hand though unfortunately, but I imagine 30 sluggas is almost as good. And yeah, I keep forgetting about Smite. Would you recommend a few Weirdboyz then, to pile up those mortal wounds?
Sluggaloo wrote:I'd say nobz with power stabbas would be a great asset if you're planning to spam a trukk based list ala speed freaks.
Nobz are made for trukks this edition. You have the option of adding cheap wounds through ammo runts to absorb the trukk's explosion, while the trukk's capacity means transporting boyz is lackluster in comparison as they're denied their+1 attack buff.
Power stabbas are some of our more point efficient wargear options, and in an edition where spam is king you'll want to keep your nobz squads cheap.
Breezed over power stabbas as well, but yeah 3 points for -2 AP is a steal. Will probably still stick a PK in there since that's just me (and hitting with them first on the charge is sweet).
Also great call on using Ammo Runts as expendable wounds. The controlling player chooses the allocation of wounds now, right? So surely it's worth paying 20 points for 5 expendable wounds on a unit of 5 Nobz and just keeping them at the back?
And yeah good point about transporting the boyz. My usual set up was two units of ~20 in Battlewagons with whatever characters you felt necessary (usually a Painboy) in there too, but requiring the 20 for the bonus is making it pretty tricky to get the correct supporting characters in there. Plus there's a risk of an explosion cancelling out your bonus. Sounds like a big unit of 30 Boyz doing "Da Jump" plus some Nobz in Trukks with Waagh Banners is going to be the basis of my list, probably a Biker Boss with a few Warbikers (2 wounds, finally!) in there as well.
Is there a good way of getting supporting characters up to help out the 30 boyz? Or is it just going to be best to make them the target of turn 2's "Da Jump"?
------
Also what are everyone's thoughts on Kombi-Skorchas? They look great but 19 points seems to be a hefty price tag
Nice to see the bikes can still kick ass.
Played a lot Evil Suns back in 5th edition and have yet to test them more in 8th edition since 6th & 7th i went mostly for hybrid / dakka.
The new rules improved them a lot, no instant death, sync. weapons, rules for shooting...
But with all the multiple demage you need either a lot of them or enough other stuff to bring enough pressure and models to endure enemy firepower.
Very true. Don't think I have 30 shoota boyz to hand though unfortunately, but I imagine 30 sluggas is almost as good. And yeah, I keep forgetting about Smite. Would you recommend a few Weirdboyz then, to pile up those mortal wounds?
Don`t forget if you run them on foot and if your enemy plays smart you have limited chances to cast smite on the right target.
On the other hand bringing a hand full of them gives you flexibility to cast Warpath / Da jump where you need it and you can make a 100% cast most of the time.
Also great call on using Ammo Runts as expendable wounds. The controlling player chooses the allocation of wounds now, right? So surely it's worth paying 20 points for 5 expendable wounds on a unit of 5 Nobz and just keeping them at the back?
Yes you choose how to allocate. Only exception is, when 1 nob is wounded he has to get the next wound.
It`s absolutely worth it, plus you can give them Bazookas as well and have some rerolls before taking the ammo runts out.
No gamechanger but since we have poor BS you take all the chances you get and S8 with D3 is very good.
Breezed over power stabbas as well, but yeah 3 points for -2 AP is a steal. Will probably still stick a PK in there since that's just me (and hitting with them first on the charge is sweet).
Love the PK as well, can`t play orks without it, allthough it`s performance was not that good in my games.
Banner, 20+ mobs and Warpath can compensate the -1 to hit.
And yeah good point about transporting the boyz. My usual set up was two units of ~20 in Battlewagons with whatever characters you felt necessary (usually a Painboy) in there too, but requiring the 20 for the bonus is making it pretty tricky to get the correct supporting characters in there. Plus there's a risk of an explosion cancelling out your bonus. Sounds like a big unit of 30 Boyz doing "Da Jump" plus some Nobz in Trukks with Waagh Banners is going to be the basis of my list, probably a Biker Boss with a few Warbikers (2 wounds, finally!) in there as well.
Is there a good way of getting supporting characters up to help out the 30 boyz? Or is it just going to be best to make them the target of turn 2's "Da Jump"?
My solution are two battle wagons.
One for 20 boyz, the other for nobs / flash gits / tankbustas, some ammo runts and fill the rest up with support characters.
KFF Mek can help your wagons to stay alive.
To get all the 20 boys in CC i use fast units (bikers, stormboys, Kommandos, trukk boys) to suck up the defense fire.
Or you just charge with the battle wagon first which will survive most of the time.
Since you disembark before moving the wagon and you can daisy chain your boys you can still get your banner behind your boys and being character makes this relativly safe.
Just remember only to pile in in your turn or after you hit in the opponents turn, when the banner can close the gap. The rules for CC are just perfekt to keep your supporters in range and tie up stuff.
To bad they took away the armoured boys which were perfekt in trukks - maybe the ork codex will bring them back.
I last game against IG, I jumped a blob of mega armor nobs behind his lines. Made there way over to a couple tanks and a couple vet squads. And just deleted them. Weirdboy is a 60 point instant transport that can't blow up and is way cheaper. Try jumping another weirdboy and perfectly position him for a smite against a character!
@grotrebel: Yeah, it's not about how good PKs are, you just have to take them, it's the Ork way
And yeah, in my initial list-building it had got to the point where I'd got a Trukk with a couple of Painboyz, Waaagh Banners and a KFF Mek to protect it, driving up purely to support my boyz. I don't know, it just seemed a bit overkill. Weirdboy teleportation sounds a lot better, and I'd only really had the KFF in there to fill the second HQ slot, which now the Weirdboy can do.
We got back into the hobby a month ago. Cool your Titan agenda for at least another five.
You could get 5-6 Battlewagons for the same points. Or three Gorkanauts.
If you really want a super-heavy, go for the kill tanks from forgeworld, the model is extremely awesome and it has great rules now. It's pretty much everything the stompa should be for less points.
We got back into the hobby a month ago. Cool your Titan agenda for at least another five.
You could get 5-6 Battlewagons for the same points. Or three Gorkanauts.
If you really want a super-heavy, go for the kill tanks from forgeworld, the model is extremely awesome and it has great rules now. It's pretty much everything the stompa should be for less points.
Have they added the Kill Krusha now because I have one and that was missing from the original release?!
Sadly no Kill Krusha for us, for some reason Forgeworld no longer sells it and there are still no rules for it.
For the moment we need to take another Kill Tank or use kustom rules.
@Frozocrone: They really nerfed the Stompa. Play it for the looks and fun but otherwise stay with the forgeworld tanks or Nauts.
Making a weird boy mob for a supreme command detachment, and im using different greenskin psychers from fantasy / 40k ect. i just love the idea of a bunch of really unique ork weirdos running amok or in a big smiteball.
From the games that i've participated in and watched - going first is a big deal and often decides the game outcomes. So, how can we minimise our drops without negating our effectiveness? I'm thinking about stickig support characters and smaller squads in some trukks and wagons and probably getting rid of msu min kommandoes, koptas and so on - cause as cool and characterful as they are effective as they are, going first and basically spamming 1 unit type is better if you want to go competitive.
There are literally no benefits for going second vs shooty opponents. And 90% stuff is shooty, so, why not build around it if we can. So, the strongest 1-st turn build for orks might be: 30-strong blobz with a single boss in the middle to help vs morale issues if the opponent siezes. The rest of the characters like other bosses, wierdboyz and banner nobz could sith in a couple trukks, wagons, naughts or if you're up to FW, a skorcha trakk or something like this. We might even benefit from fortifications for this sole purpose. Something like a redoubt or a simple bunker can hold all the characters and still provide a reasonable backfield scoring presence. Might even go for it and put a couple lootas in there. They're not too bad if they aren't shot at.
"
Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read:
‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means
you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule
allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding
several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless
otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again.
You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls
happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’
"
Ouch, that smarts ladz...
"
Page 215 – Sudden Death
Change point 2 to read:
‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one
player has no models on the battlefield, the game ends
immediately and their opponent automatically wins a
crushing victory. When determining if a player has any
units on the battlefield, do not include any units with
the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate
within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot
hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield
Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the
most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to
pose a threat.’
"
Honest question since I'm not sure exactly how flyer spam works, does this mean flyer spam doesn't work anymore?
That might be the emmidiate reaction to all those flyer lists. Love it. Though, i hope it's GWfaq and not some homerule (great as it is - it emidiately looses legitimacy if it's not coming from GW for some reason).
Also, the clarification about re-rolls means mob rule gets a slight nerf and we might get to use command points.
The single dice reroll for Ere we go was not really a legal thing anyway, no loss there.
From the games that i've participated in and watched - going first is a big deal and often decides the game outcomes. So, how can we minimise our drops without negating our effectiveness? I'm thinking about stickig support characters and smaller squads in some trukks and wagons and probably getting rid of msu min kommandoes, koptas and so on - cause as cool and characterful as they are effective as they are, going first and basically spamming 1 unit type is better if you want to go competitive.
Going first is essential, especially with CC heavy orks.
Trucks and wagons are good for that, plus they give you flexibility how many drops you use as soon as you know the opponents list / drops.
I`m not a big fan of ork MSU anyway. 5 Kommandos with 2 burnas is just to fragile in my oppinion.
Ravens still occupy the flyer slot - no matter if they hover or not.
Now we might actually need to just get up to a tough fortification with one character in it and break it down. Luckilly, fortifications can't disengage. I hope...
koooaei wrote: Ravens still occupy the flyer slot - no matter if they hover or not.
Now we might actually need to just get up to a tough fortification with one character in it and break it down. Luckilly, fortifications can't disengage. I hope...
Oh yeah, good point. I guess this prevents nerfs to units with the Fly special rule
koooaei wrote: Ravens still occupy the flyer slot - no matter if they hover or not.
Now we might actually need to just get up to a tough fortification with one character in it and break it down. Luckilly, fortifications can't disengage. I hope...
He, they can`t. And Orks do a good job at breaking down buildings with all the autohits.
Plus we have all the fancy stuff that gets in CC really fast.
30 boyz and nob with da jump and the fortification looses 10+ wounds per CC. And thats just 1 mob.
I don't think they can continue their game now. Even if they put down a landraider or two, there are armies out there that handle resilient multi-wound models like bastions or landraiders with ease.
Also considering that most detachment require an HQ, the lose at lest 3-4 fliers from their lists due to the points they need to spent to not get tabled.
Most likely we will now see conscripts taking the place of two or three ravens, which we can just murder my assaulting them.
You will see near unkillable characters like guilliman or Celestine with 4 ravenspam still. You can't target the characters shooting if a raven is closer. And they are best stick assault units that take a lot of wasted hits to kill in assault.
Well they can't hide forever. And 4 Ravens with Robby G. gives us plenty modells to handle him or similar modells.
Just let your army run towards him and the Ravens have to hover in front of him or fly away.
This won't take out all the fliers but adds a necessary chance to deal with that kind of list.
played a few games today and came to a few conclusions and had some of my opinion reinforced. For starters I will point out i lost every game today but they were relatively close which is nice i guess....
Anyway.
1: Ghaz is officially an auto-include. Give him the +1 attack and he is 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s and wounding most stuff on 2s and everything else on 3s.
2: Deff Dreadz are a waste of points. 150pts ish for 4 CC attacks is crap. Big shootas are useless and Skorchas suck because you will only use it 1 maybe 2 times in the game.
3: Kanz need some love. The best way to equip them is with Rokkitz and with -2 AP they just aren't scary enough. the 3Dmg is nice but meh. They aren't worth taking for shooting and they suck at CC.
4: We have nothing in our army list that can reliably deal with T8 2+ except Ghaz. I had over 90 attacks on a Land Raider and managed nothing.
5: Deff Koptas are still surprisingly good, they are definitely about 10-15pts over priced though.
6: Trukkz are utterly useless except as mobile bunkers for Tank bustas and Lootas. Eating overwatch isn't even remotely worth the price and nobody needs one except those units mentioned.
7: Weirdboyz are great.
Ghaz statistically deals 6-9 wounds to a landraider. I've done some math on PK nobs earlier in this thread. Depending on buffs, a couple pk nobz, ghaz and a bunch of boyz will take down a land raider in a turn or two. But if the sm player avoids Ghaz or deals with him in some way, it's gona take you 2-3 full game turns to take down a landraider with just boyz and pk squad leaders.
Trukks might be useful to deploy characters in there to minimise squad drops to get 1-st turn and force an opponent to at least spend a cp to get 1-st turn. Going first is half the victory for orks as we can't afford spending too much time under enemy fire - especially now when cover doesn't work and we can't even mitigate the shooty alpha-strike.
2: Deff Dreadz are a waste of points. 150pts ish for 4 CC attacks is crap. Big shootas are useless and Skorchas suck because you will only use it 1 maybe 2 times in the game.
How about a 149 point 6 attack 4 x claw version? or 143 point 5 attack 3x claw 1 x KMB.
I just wonder if the DD is more suited to max CC as a second wave. 1st wave trukks and boys tie up the enemy and absorb fire and then 1 or 2 DD hit a turn or 2 later and get rid of the stuff the boys cant move.
Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
Weazel wrote: Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
They're a decent unit if you keep them quite cheap. 5-6 dudes with big choppas, maybe with stabbas. Add 1-2 ammo runts as ablative wounds.
I tried 5 big choppa nobz plus ammo runt in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig and they performed quite well as both squads are going to threat the same targets and they can have a good synergy being a shooty and a choppy units. I prefer two units of tankbustas in the same trukk though.
I haven't tried nobz in other combinations since a trukk only for them seems wasted, not to mention a BW. Mixing nobz and tankbustas or other stuff in a BW becomes pricey.
Weazel wrote: Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
They're a decent unit if you keep them quite cheap. 5-6 dudes with big choppas, maybe with stabbas. Add 1-2 ammo runts as ablative wounds.
I tried 5 big choppa nobz plus ammo runt in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig and they performed quite well as both squads are going to threat the same targets and they can have a good synergy being a shooty and a choppy units. I prefer two units of tankbustas in the same trukk though.
I haven't tried nobz in other combinations since a trukk only for them seems wasted, not to mention a BW. Mixing nobz and tankbustas or other stuff in a BW becomes pricey.
So you're not suggesting klaws outside of Boss Nobs, right?
I'm still in the early stages of building an army but I'm thinking of a core of 2-3 big squads of Boyz and 1-2 big squads of Storm Boyz and some Nobz for seasoning. Do you think the Nobz would survive long while slogging? The Stormboyz and/or a big unit of Boyz "da jumped" to the enemy's face might attract some firepower, am I right?
Might as well build them slowly anyway while waiting for the actual Codex since Orks don't seem to be in a strong position right now as far as I can tell. Hopefully the Codex changes things up a bit.
Weazel wrote: Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
They are good in mechanized lists. In footslogging lists they tend to become fire magnets, so keep them cheap. No Klaws or kombiweapons. If you run them on foot, you should keep them within range of Grotsnik. That is, if you take Grotsnik to heal your Weirdboyz from peril-damage.
A good rule of thumb for Ork players is this: The Best nob is your six-point boss nob. Best value in the index. Also, boobs are nice.
2: Deff Dreadz are a waste of points. 150pts ish for 4 CC attacks is crap. Big shootas are useless and Skorchas suck because you will only use it 1 maybe 2 times in the game.
How about a 149 point 6 attack 4 x claw version? or 143 point 5 attack 3x claw 1 x KMB.
I just wonder if the DD is more suited to max CC as a second wave. 1st wave trukks and boys tie up the enemy and absorb fire and then 1 or 2 DD hit a turn or 2 later and get rid of the stuff the boys cant move.
I run him with 4 claws when not going shooty.
With enough stuff around you have a chance to get him in CC.
Otherwise he will be gunned down with all the multi damage weapons, even if you bring a KFF.
With his CC profile i wouldn't bring guns.
A dakka bot maybe but not sure about that. A bit expensive and he still has to get in 24''.
Weazel wrote: Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
They're a decent unit if you keep them quite cheap. 5-6 dudes with big choppas, maybe with stabbas. Add 1-2 ammo runts as ablative wounds.
I tried 5 big choppa nobz plus ammo runt in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig and they performed quite well as both squads are going to threat the same targets and they can have a good synergy being a shooty and a choppy units. I prefer two units of tankbustas in the same trukk though.
I haven't tried nobz in other combinations since a trukk only for them seems wasted, not to mention a BW. Mixing nobz and tankbustas or other stuff in a BW becomes pricey.
So you're not suggesting klaws outside of Boss Nobs, right?
I'm still in the early stages of building an army but I'm thinking of a core of 2-3 big squads of Boyz and 1-2 big squads of Storm Boyz and some Nobz for seasoning. Do you think the Nobz would survive long while slogging? The Stormboyz and/or a big unit of Boyz "da jumped" to the enemy's face might attract some firepower, am I right?
Might as well build them slowly anyway while waiting for the actual Codex since Orks don't seem to be in a strong position right now as far as I can tell. Hopefully the Codex changes things up a bit.
Never give them klaws, they become too expensive and for a few points more you can field meganobz which have better armor, better shooting and one more wound. Klaws are ok for nobz leading boyz/stormboyz units.
If you run footslogging nobz they can attract all the multi damage fire power in the opponent's list especially if you haven't many vehicles/walkers. In a full footslogging list they would be dead turn 1, giving the opponent the only appropriate target for his anti tank. No way the opponent would waste his high S high AP shots towards boyz/stormboyz if he has more appropriate targets and he can't aim at characters.
They may be viable in mechanized lists with BWs and trukks. If you're planning to run hordes I'd suggest to skip them.
Weazel wrote: Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...
They're a decent unit if you keep them quite cheap. 5-6 dudes with big choppas, maybe with stabbas. Add 1-2 ammo runts as ablative wounds.
I tried 5 big choppa nobz plus ammo runt in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig and they performed quite well as both squads are going to threat the same targets and they can have a good synergy being a shooty and a choppy units. I prefer two units of tankbustas in the same trukk though.
I haven't tried nobz in other combinations since a trukk only for them seems wasted, not to mention a BW. Mixing nobz and tankbustas or other stuff in a BW becomes pricey.
So you're not suggesting klaws outside of Boss Nobs, right?
I'm still in the early stages of building an army but I'm thinking of a core of 2-3 big squads of Boyz and 1-2 big squads of Storm Boyz and some Nobz for seasoning. Do you think the Nobz would survive long while slogging? The Stormboyz and/or a big unit of Boyz "da jumped" to the enemy's face might attract some firepower, am I right?
Might as well build them slowly anyway while waiting for the actual Codex since Orks don't seem to be in a strong position right now as far as I can tell. Hopefully the Codex changes things up a bit.
Never give them klaws, they become too expensive and for a few points more you can field meganobz which have better armor, better shooting and one more wound. Klaws are ok for nobz leading boyz/stormboyz units.
If you run footslogging nobz they can attract all the multi damage fire power in the opponent's list especially if you haven't many vehicles/walkers. In a full footslogging list they would be dead turn 1, giving the opponent the only appropriate target for his anti tank. No way the opponent would waste his high S high AP shots towards boyz/stormboyz if he has more appropriate targets and he can't aim at characters.
They may be viable in mechanized lists with BWs and trukks. If you're planning to run hordes I'd suggest to skip them.
What about putting a small squad of Nobz in a Gorkanaut? Sure I realize the 'naut is an even bigger anti-tank magnet. What else should I bring to attract the attention of anti-tank?
Blackie wrote: Maybe a trukk with two min units of tankbustas and a biker big mek with KFF to give them the 5+ invuln?
Well incidentally a unit or two of Tankbustas in Trukks is something I've had in mind so that's covered. However I don't have anything resembling and Ork bike nor a KFF for that matter so that might prove more challenging. There's KFF bitz in the Gorkanaut box so I dunno, might not be too hard to model if I just get a hold of a bike somewhere...
Soo a couple of Trukks with Tankbustas, a Gorkanaut and an ocean of Boyz, think that would work?
Nob squads are a prime example of mellee army specialisation issue. They look good on paper but need a transport. Having a couple transport in a footslogging horde list is not effective vs shooty opponents cause they can concentrate ranged at and kill they transport and than kill the nobz. So, you're getting the most out of this unit when you're allready running a full mech list.
Why do you need to deal with a Landraider? well for starters the Crusader variants are now pretty damn disgusting with dakka. 12 shots from the Assault Cannon and 24 shots from the Hurricane Bolters. They actually put out more dakka then we do with our vehicles :(
Also, do Nobz in boyz units not matter anymore for morale issues? I was so sure they gave some kind of benefit but then when i looked during my games it isn't there. When I am losing 15boyz in a shooting phase having leadership 15 doesn't help. And by turn 3 I wasnt anywhere near my other drastically undermanned Boyz units.
Also, with the Deff Dreadz, I ran a mech list with 12 Kanz, a KFF Big Mek and a Banner Nob. The Deff Dread just sucks. For his price tag and the fact that he has zero shooting worth mentioning he should have either double those attacks or +2-3 attacks AND becoming WS2+. And on the topic of his weapons, I lost the game specifically because I ran into a Captain with a Storm Shield. He ate so many attacks it was ridiculous, in 4 rounds of CC he ate the better part of 4 Kanz swinging at him, a Big Mek Swinging with a KillSaw and the Deff Dread going to town on him. yeah he used command point rerolls and was lucky beyond reasoning but I am still disappointed with the sheer lack of CC prowess on the part of Ork Walkers.
It's really no contest. Deff Dreads need either a big buff or at least a significant point discount. Maybe somewhere in the 110's or 120's it would really start to have more appeal.
That or the SW venerable dread is getting a price hike soon enough.
SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp
So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.
The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.
The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds
The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.
If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.
So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.
3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.
That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.
SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp
So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.
The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.
The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds
The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.
If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.
So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.
3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.
That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.
Durability is definitely a huge concern, but the lack of choppiness when it finally gets into CC is the biggest problem. Also, the Deff Dread is marginally better at getting into combat because of Ere we go, the same could be said though about the Venerable because command point reroll or the fact that it has delivery methods.
Against one another the Venerable wins every time. Against CC armies the Venerable is better every time. Against anything that has -APCC weapons the venerable is better. Pretty much the only place the Deff Dread is better then the Venerable is in the one you mentioned. And even then the trade off for durability isn't worth it. I Have said this multiple times and i'll restate it again. I am fine with my models being less durable and less accurate so long as the trade off is worth it. this thing needs about twice the choppiness for me to want to take it, I only fielded it as part of a mech list to see if it was good. I honestly was hoping it would do a lot better then it did.
Breng77 wrote: The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage
No, it's S10. S6 base and Fenrisian Great Axe gives +4 S and D6 damage. Adjust your calculations accordingly.
I agree though, 3++ is very good and the FNP is a nice bonus to that. 4 base attacks for the Deff sounds reasonable and would make it sufficiently killy to justify the points. Or rather better justify the points.
And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced. WAY better than they used to be in 7-th and can even compete in casual games but definitely not competitive.
And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced.
I am really hoping that was an oversight because so far my opponents have all been smart enough to focus fire down boyz squads to the point where leadership is so bad they run off the table.
Also I am still not sold on gorkanaught being worth taking either but I agree with your premise. EVERY ork walker would be usable if it were significantly cheaper. Kanz being 15-20pts cheaper would be worth it. Deff Dreadz being 30-40pts cheaper would be worth it. Morkanaugh? I don't even want to guess but probably closer to 40-50.
Breng77 wrote: The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage
No, it's S10. S6 base and Fenrisian Great Axe gives +4 S and D6 damage. Adjust your calculations accordingly.
I agree though, 3++ is very good and the FNP is a nice bonus to that. 4 base attacks for the Deff sounds reasonable and would make it sufficiently killy to justify the points. Or rather better justify the points.
Ah, I was looking at the wrong weapon. Both those options for wolves seem undercosted (3+ for 15 points, better DCCW for same price as the CCW.) I mean sure you give up all shooting, but I think GW is really under-rating 3++ saves in this edition.
And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced. WAY better than they used to be in 7-th and can even compete in casual games but definitely not competitive.
Yeah the gorkanaut is by far the best of what we have. It could still stand to be a bit cheaper, but it has enough attacks to be damaging against just about everything. Has a good amount of shooting as well. It's largest problem is that it needs other scary mech threats to live long enough to do anything. So unless you are taking battlewagons/trukks full of scary models, or multiple Gorkanauts it is hard to expect him to live long.
SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp
So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.
The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.
The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds
The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.
If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.
So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.
3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.
That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.
Durability is definitely a huge concern, but the lack of choppiness when it finally gets into CC is the biggest problem. Also, the Deff Dread is marginally better at getting into combat because of Ere we go, the same could be said though about the Venerable because command point reroll or the fact that it has delivery methods.
Against one another the Venerable wins every time. Against CC armies the Venerable is better every time. Against anything that has -APCC weapons the venerable is better. Pretty much the only place the Deff Dread is better then the Venerable is in the one you mentioned. And even then the trade off for durability isn't worth it. I Have said this multiple times and i'll restate it again. I am fine with my models being less durable and less accurate so long as the trade off is worth it. this thing needs about twice the choppiness for me to want to take it, I only fielded it as part of a mech list to see if it was good. I honestly was hoping it would do a lot better then it did.
The biggest difference in what you see is the durability though. Like I said starting at 4 base attacks would help, but it would still be worse against things with -AP weapons in CC weapons, or CC armies, because dead things don't attack. As for getting there ere-we go is a big deal. Although with chapter tactics coming this comparison won't even be close.
The trick is to always keep a warboss nearby or using CP to auto-pass ld.
It's quite easy to loose an isolated 30-strong squad to morale - it needs to loose 13 models to start testing ld. 19 casualties will guarantee that the squad is gona get wiped due to ld.
So, bosses are essential. It's a good idea to have multiples of them. Luckilly, they are pretty good for the points either with big choppas or power klaws - i prefer power klaws, to be honest. I'm not sure if footslogging bosses are gona be that good though. Biker bosses have proven to be decent. My favorite loadout is a pk and k-skorcha. Skorcha is not mandatory but it has it's uses on such a mobile platform. And it brings a boss to 130 pts instead of 111. I've only got one biker boss and he's modelled with a k-skorcha, so i thought - why not. Haven't played games with more than 1250 pts yet, so 1 was almost enough. Got an aobr boss either but he's been cosplaying Ghaz until i either kitbash him a mighty piece of armor and a pair of horns or just actually get Ghazzy.
What if the dreads could choose to triple their attacks at their base str like naughts? I think it's fluffy and we'd still be wounding MEQ on 3s with ap-2
It's really no contest. Deff Dreads need either a big buff or at least a significant point discount. Maybe somewhere in the 110's or 120's it would really start to have more appeal.
That or the SW venerable dread is getting a price hike soon enough.
The Deff is half-decent but too expensive by 20-30 points. It also illustrates why the green tide lists are so good. 30 slugga Boyz will do between 9-10 wounds of damage to a venerable dread per round of fighting. Boyz really are our best option against anything not airborne or T8.
Haveing just run a list with 20 Big chopa nobs (all with kombi-skorchas!) I can tell you the transport is needed, and kill-saws do far better for what power klaws promise. (waagh banner helping)
All very expensive, but powerful... :/
Ok, this might sound like a weird question, but I got asked by the sister of my mate (he plays orks) what a good addition to his army would be.
What is a good box/character now that she could pick up that would actually be fielded and wouldn't be bad to have multiples of (don't know what his whole collection is sadly)? Price is between €20-40.
Nobz on foot take an ammo runt for every Nob. When they are shooting weapons with no AP, take it on Nobz. When they are shooting anything else, take it on KFF ammo runtz. The squad works in footslogging armies because of the runtz.
LiMunPai wrote: Nobz on foot take an ammo runt for every Nob. When they are shooting weapons with no AP, take it on Nobz. When they are shooting anything else, take it on KFF ammo runtz. The squad works in footslogging armies because of the runtz.
Have you (or anyone else) tried 15 nobs and 15 runts? would that be more effective than 29 boyz and 1 nob? The boyz are much cheaper.
What does everyone think of the Ork flyers in the new edition?
I'll be picking up another Eldar flyer since they're so food these days, and figured for an extra bit of cash I may as well pick up the Stormcloud game with the Ork flyer in as well. I understand they may not be the best models to use competitively, but I love the models and would definitely want to use them at some point in a semi-competitive pick up game. Already got a Dakkajet, but what should I build my new one as? To me the two Bommer variants look the best, with maybe the Blitza edging out the Burna since we have so much anti-infantry and burny goodness in the army already.
The Shadow wrote: What does everyone think of the Ork flyers in the new edition?
I'll be picking up another Eldar flyer since they're so food these days, and figured for an extra bit of cash I may as well pick up the Stormcloud game with the Ork flyer in as well. I understand they may not be the best models to use competitively, but I love the models and would definitely want to use them at some point in a semi-competitive pick up game. Already got a Dakkajet, but what should I build my new one as? To me the two Bommer variants look the best, with maybe the Blitza edging out the Burna since we have so much anti-infantry and burny goodness in the army already.
My honest opinion? Save your money. The Dakkajet is the only "Decent" variant right now and even that isn't particularly good. If you are really hell bent on getting one though I would probably go with the Blitza or another Dakkajet over the Burna or the Wazbom variant.
I have a couple planes, I am never pleased by their performance. I think the dakkajet isn't terrible in the right list. I don't think the burna bomma is awful in a vehicle or walker list. Burna bomma explodes on a 4+, instead of 6. If you can get it to explode near enemies it's 3 mortal wounds to every unit in six inches. I wouldn't want it to blow up near my characters, the enemy wouldn't either.
Edit; It has potential, if it can shoot anything before it dies then blows up on more then just light infantry it might just pay itself off. The explosion is worth a CP reroll if you have the right enemies nearby.
I have yet to have a lot of games of 8th yet, but I'll put out my defence of Killa kans. 6 kans with a nob banner and kff support nearby is actualy realy solid, can do some real damage.
Rismonite wrote: I have a couple planes, I am never pleased by their performance. I think the dakkajet isn't terrible in the right list. I don't think the burna bomma is awful in a vehicle or walker list. Burna bomma explodes on a 4+, instead of 6. If you can get it to explode near enemies it's 3 mortal wounds to every unit in six inches. I wouldn't want it to blow up near my characters, the enemy wouldn't either.
Edit; It has potential, if it can shoot anything before it dies then blows up on more then just light infantry it might just pay itself off. The explosion is worth a CP reroll if you have the right enemies nearby.
So sad that it would do more damage blowing up then shooting all its weapons
The problem with a burna bomber is that the enemy can concentrate firepower when it's near you and ignore it when it's near him. The damage output is quite forgetable. It's rare to see squads larger than 5.
SemperMortis wrote: Why do you need to deal with a Landraider? well for starters the Crusader variants are now pretty damn disgusting with dakka. 12 shots from the Assault Cannon and 24 shots from the Hurricane Bolters. They actually put out more dakka then we do with our vehicles :(
Sure, but that all turns off as soon as anything is within 1". Unlike a knight, it cannot disengage and shoot, and it can't move over your troops. Even if you have a whole unit of boyz going after it just to prevent it from shooting, you're still good in terms of point efficiency.
Also, do Nobz in boyz units not matter anymore for morale issues? I was so sure they gave some kind of benefit but then when i looked during my games it isn't there. When I am losing 15boyz in a shooting phase having leadership 15 doesn't help. And by turn 3 I wasnt anywhere near my other drastically undermanned Boyz units.
At that point you should just auto-pass moral for 2 CP. That way you are denying your opponent ~15 kills and you keep a fully functional unit on the board that can still kill stuff, take objectives and whatnot. I doubt you can get anything better by taking two rerolls at some later point.
You also have the element of surprise - if your opponent didn't account for the stratagem, he might have left 10-15 boyz in a place where he really doesn't want them. If he does remember the possibility of auto-passing he will kill them to the last ork when needed and waste shooting that would have otherwise killed orks elsewhere, with no bonus casualties from moral. You might even be able to bait him into doing that, by casually pointing out that you are not worried about moral for the unit he just took down to 10 as you can just auto-pass it.
Last, but not least, always keep warbosses or Thrakka near your large mobs.
Pretty competitive one. Anywayz, 10+ squads are generally composed of things that are more effectively dealt with using shootas rather than burna/blitza bombs.
See, ideally you want to kill the most valuable stuff with those mortal wound bombs cause you're paying quite a lot for them. And the most valuable stuff tends to be running in squads of 5 or fewer.
Like expensive ranged support squads of almost all armies - devastators, havoks, reapers, various tau shooty suits. Or Tough mellee units with good saves - terminators, berserkers.
koooaei wrote: Pretty competitive one. Anywayz, 10+ squads are generally composed of things that are more effectively dealt with using shootas rather than burna/blitza bombs.
See, ideally you want to kill the most valuable stuff with those mortal wound bombs cause you're paying quite a lot for them. And the most valuable stuff tends to be running in squads of 5 or fewer.
Like expensive ranged support squads of almost all armies - devastators, havoks, reapers, various tau shooty suits. Or Tough mellee units with good saves - terminators, berserkers.
I tired out the wazbom jet in a game the other day. Damn that thing is a waste of points. It's BS makes hitting anything nearly impossible and just doesn't throw down enough fire power. I'll definitely be switching it out for something else!
Thing is what. As it stands my list is:
warboos w/klaw on bike
painboy w/klaw on bike
5 nob bikers - nig choppa
7 warbikers (Klaw on nob)
3 x 12 ork boy units all in trukks with big shoota and wrecking ball
gorkanaut
5 nob/wamm runt - big choppas (in Gorka)
10 storm boyz
Wazbom...
Now with the wazbom coming out, what do I spent the near 160 points on? Psyker? Big Mek w/shokk gun on bike? Mek gunz?
You can probably get bigchoppas for boy squad leaders and a couple more bikers so that you could field 2*5 or even better 3*3 squads instead of 1*7. So that you could at least hide those bigchoppa nobz in warbiker squads instead of sticking them out in a separate overpriced nob biker squad. to be honest, that'd be the first thing i'd do after swapping a painboy and blastajet.
JimOnMars wrote: Have you (or anyone else) tried 15 nobs and 15 runts? would that be more effective than 29 boyz and 1 nob? The boyz are much cheaper.
Not quite, the max squad size is 10 Nobz and 10 runtz. I run them with 5 Killsaws, 5 big Choppas, and 10 shootas. With KFF, Painboy, and 30 Warpath Boyz teleporting at the enemy every turn, they do an alright job of surviving. Once you can get them the banner buff onto an armored target, give them Warpath and send them in.
Including shooting, this squad just barely one rounds a knight on average dice using Warpath and Banner completely discounting the grots on the assumption they die somewhere on the way in, like with overwatch. It has a lot of vulnerabilities, but the offense versus armor just can't be replicated anywhere else in Orks that isn't a complete liability.
One trick with them is to make a trail of runtz back to the banner buff after using Warpath and Da Jump. Feels good killing an Imperial Knight on the bottom of 1 if you're willing to take the risk.
SemperMortis wrote: Why do you need to deal with a Landraider? well for starters the Crusader variants are now pretty damn disgusting with dakka. 12 shots from the Assault Cannon and 24 shots from the Hurricane Bolters. They actually put out more dakka then we do with our vehicles :(
Sure, but that all turns off as soon as anything is within 1". Unlike a knight, it cannot disengage and shoot, and it can't move over your troops. Even if you have a whole unit of boyz going after it just to prevent it from shooting, you're still good in terms of point efficiency.
Also, do Nobz in boyz units not matter anymore for morale issues? I was so sure they gave some kind of benefit but then when i looked during my games it isn't there. When I am losing 15boyz in a shooting phase having leadership 15 doesn't help. And by turn 3 I wasnt anywhere near my other drastically undermanned Boyz units.
At that point you should just auto-pass moral for 2 CP. That way you are denying your opponent ~15 kills and you keep a fully functional unit on the board that can still kill stuff, take objectives and whatnot. I doubt you can get anything better by taking two rerolls at some later point. You also have the element of surprise - if your opponent didn't account for the stratagem, he might have left 10-15 boyz in a place where he really doesn't want them. If he does remember the possibility of auto-passing he will kill them to the last ork when needed and waste shooting that would have otherwise killed orks elsewhere, with no bonus casualties from moral. You might even be able to bait him into doing that, by casually pointing out that you are not worried about moral for the unit he just took down to 10 as you can just auto-pass it. Last, but not least, always keep warbosses or Thrakka near your large mobs.
And when the Land Raider falls back and the enemy focus fires everything at that unit of boyz you are then left with a Land Raider unopposed in the open that will be decimating you next turn. Trust me I did my best to keep it from disengaging but only managed to trap it after 2 full turns and having had to walk up the table for 2 turns. By that point I was running out of tools to use. Honestly, the game would have been even more one sided if it hadn't been for my amazingly lucky assault roll. I targeted his Rhino which he accidentally left to close to my boyz (11 inches) and it was only 4inches away from his Land Raider so I charged it and managed to roll 11inches AND using my pile in moves I was able to get into B2B with the Land Raider AND one of his Razorbacks, the Razorback and Land Raider Ran away, the Rhino kept in the fight and died but by that point his land raider and Razorback were able to disengage, drop off their troops and blow my boyz to hell. As it stands we just don't have the tools to deal with these things and it becomes more readily apparent every game I play. Ghaz is our go to for anti-vehicle in a foot slogging list because Tankbustas require a Trukk/Wagon and if you bring one you give your opponent 1-2 easy targets to kill with his anti-tank weapons. Basically, our army lacks synergy, lacks worthwhile buffs (Sorry but it is very clear to me that a painboy isn't worth the points invested in it, nor is a KFF when its protecting Boyz) and completely lacks anti-armor.
As far as the 2CP to auto-pass morale, by that point in the game I had used all available CP to try and GET INTO combat and didn't have enough left to do that.
The Shadow wrote: What does everyone think of the Ork flyers in the new edition?
I'll be picking up another Eldar flyer since they're so food these days, and figured for an extra bit of cash I may as well pick up the Stormcloud game with the Ork flyer in as well. I understand they may not be the best models to use competitively, but I love the models and would definitely want to use them at some point in a semi-competitive pick up game. Already got a Dakkajet, but what should I build my new one as? To me the two Bommer variants look the best, with maybe the Blitza edging out the Burna since we have so much anti-infantry and burny goodness in the army already.
My honest opinion? Save your money. The Dakkajet is the only "Decent" variant right now and even that isn't particularly good. If you are really hell bent on getting one though I would probably go with the Blitza or another Dakkajet over the Burna or the Wazbom variant.
Rismonite wrote:I have a couple planes, I am never pleased by their performance. I think the dakkajet isn't terrible in the right list. I don't think the burna bomma is awful in a vehicle or walker list. Burna bomma explodes on a 4+, instead of 6. If you can get it to explode near enemies it's 3 mortal wounds to every unit in six inches. I wouldn't want it to blow up near my characters, the enemy wouldn't either.
Edit; It has potential, if it can shoot anything before it dies then blows up on more then just light infantry it might just pay itself off. The explosion is worth a CP reroll if you have the right enemies nearby.
Hmm... Well, if I can find a Hemlock going cheap on eBay I'll pick that up instead, but if not I feel I may as well for the extra ~£12 or whatever. Didn't realise the burna exploded on a 4, and didn't think of using a command re-roll to get the explosion if I want it or stop it if I don't. That's something I feel a lot of people won't realise as well
LiMunPai wrote:
JimOnMars wrote: Have you (or anyone else) tried 15 nobs and 15 runts? would that be more effective than 29 boyz and 1 nob? The boyz are much cheaper.
Not quite, the max squad size is 10 Nobz and 10 runtz. I run them with 5 Killsaws, 5 big Choppas, and 10 shootas. With KFF, Painboy, and 30 Warpath Boyz teleporting at the enemy every turn, they do an alright job of surviving. Once you can get them the banner buff onto an armored target, give them Warpath and send them in.
Including shooting, this squad just barely one rounds a knight on average dice using Warpath and Banner completely discounting the grots on the assumption they die somewhere on the way in, like with overwatch. It has a lot of vulnerabilities, but the offense versus armor just can't be replicated anywhere else in Orks that isn't a complete liability.
One trick with them is to make a trail of runtz back to the banner buff after using Warpath and Da Jump. Feels good killing an Imperial Knight on the bottom of 1 if you're willing to take the risk.
Interesting you mention running the painboy with the Nobz... I've been planning on giving them cyborg bodies instead and sending them off on their own (maybe with a banner) and keeping my painboys closer to my boyz. I know it's best to keep everything together but in practice that often doesn't happen, with the opponent having important units away from their main battleline, or there being an objective that needs grabbing. I do only run units of 5 to be fair (and so the cyborg upgrade is only 25pts) but I feel it's worth it for the extra independence.
Nice call on using ammo runts to get the unit in range of buffs though
Also, a bit of a general rules question: A lot of people have been mentioning using CP re-rolls for one thing or another, or using them to negate morale tests. Do these stratagems (is that the name?) need to be included with your army list (i.e. if you include 3 re-rolls you can't change your mind mid-battle and auto-pass a Morale check), or can you just choose to use them on the fly, providing you have enough CP, of course?
You know it would be fluffy and cool if not very competitive if we could give every nob in a nob unit cybork bodies however it only allows 1 in 5 to have it. Which is sad because there are awsome 3rd party models to add cybork legs and arms to ork boys.
Interesting you mention running the painboy with the Nobz... I've been planning on giving them cyborg bodies instead and sending them off on their own (maybe with a banner) and keeping my painboys closer to my boyz. I know it's best to keep everything together but in practice that often doesn't happen, with the opponent having important units away from their main battleline, or there being an objective that needs grabbing. I do only run units of 5 to be fair (and so the cyborg upgrade is only 25pts) but I feel it's worth it for the extra independence.
Negative Nancy chiming in again, but save the points on those Cyborg and Painboy additions. Unless you want to be fluffy then go ahead.
25pts for a 6+ save. Nobz cost 17pts with 2wounds, so each wound is about 9pts worth. In order to make back those 25pts you need to save 3 wounds minimum with those additions. If you have 5 nobz with Cybork you have 10 wounds total. The chance of rolling 3 6s for them is very small. statistically you are more likely to roll 1 MAYBE 2 but 3 is pushing your lucky pretty far. For those 25pts though you could get another nob and another runt.
For Boyz squads its kind of worse. If you are running a Painboy without any upgrades you need to save 11 boyz models in order to earn back those points (unless you are taking it to heal your weirdboy) but that means you need to roll 11 6s. if you have 60 Boyz within 3in of your Painboy you will statistically roll 10 6s, and that is only if they all die. And honestly if it gets to that point you probably will lose them to Morale anyway so who cares?
Again though, for those 65pts you can field almost 11 more boyz, or 10 boyz a nob and a Big Choppa.
There is very little point in taking protective buffs like that anymore. The same is true for things like the Big Mek with KFF, he needs to save 13 models that would have died without his KFF in order to make back his points, and worse for him at least, he only extends a bubble of protection so you have to cram all those units into close contact with him in order to get the save, that means you are yielding a large part of the board to your enemy.
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gungo wrote: You know it would be fluffy and cool if not very competitive if we could give every nob in a nob unit cybork bodies however it only allows 1 in 5 to have it. Which is sad because there are awsome 3rd party models to add cybork legs and arms to ork boys.
Also this. and what is the point of giving 1 model a 6+ FNP save?
Interesting you mention running the painboy with the Nobz... I've been planning on giving them cyborg bodies instead and sending them off on their own (maybe with a banner) and keeping my painboys closer to my boyz. I know it's best to keep everything together but in practice that often doesn't happen, with the opponent having important units away from their main battleline, or there being an objective that needs grabbing. I do only run units of 5 to be fair (and so the cyborg upgrade is only 25pts) but I feel it's worth it for the extra independence.
Nice call on using ammo runts to get the unit in range of buffs though
Also, a bit of a general rules question: A lot of people have been mentioning using CP re-rolls for one thing or another, or using them to negate morale tests. Do these stratagems (is that the name?) need to be included with your army list (i.e. if you include 3 re-rolls you can't change your mind mid-battle and auto-pass a Morale check), or can you just choose to use them on the fly, providing you have enough CP, of course?
You can only take cybork on one Nob in 5.
I use Boyz with a trail back to the Painboy to spread out in a footslogging list. Da Jump also helps a lot. With 5 weirdboyz for smite spam, I take redundant Da Jump and Warpath to make sure I always have access to those powers.
CP are not designated at the beginning of the game; you get to determine their use on the fly.
Negative Nancy chiming in again, but save the points on those Cyborg and Painboy additions. Unless you want to be fluffy then go ahead.
25pts for a 6+ save. Nobz cost 17pts with 2wounds, so each wound is about 9pts worth. In order to make back those 25pts you need to save 3 wounds minimum with those additions. If you have 5 nobz with Cybork you have 10 wounds total. The chance of rolling 3 6s for them is very small. statistically you are more likely to roll 1 MAYBE 2 but 3 is pushing your lucky pretty far. For those 25pts though you could get another nob and another runt.
For Boyz squads its kind of worse. If you are running a Painboy without any upgrades you need to save 11 boyz models in order to earn back those points (unless you are taking it to heal your weirdboy) but that means you need to roll 11 6s. if you have 60 Boyz within 3in of your Painboy you will statistically roll 10 6s, and that is only if they all die. And honestly if it gets to that point you probably will lose them to Morale anyway so who cares?
Again though, for those 65pts you can field almost 11 more boyz, or 10 boyz a nob and a Big Choppa.
There is very little point in taking protective buffs like that anymore. The same is true for things like the Big Mek with KFF, he needs to save 13 models that would have died without his KFF in order to make back his points, and worse for him at least, he only extends a bubble of protection so you have to cram all those units into close contact with him in order to get the save, that means you are yielding a large part of the board to your enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: You know it would be fluffy and cool if not very competitive if we could give every nob in a nob unit cybork bodies however it only allows 1 in 5 to have it. Which is sad because there are awsome 3rd party models to add cybork legs and arms to ork boys.
Also this. and what is the point of giving 1 model a 6+ FNP save?
You're really not ceding board. It takes like 6 Boyz to make a trail back to your buffs from even the extreme ends of the table. You are going to want to do that anyway to make sure you stay at leadership 20 to 30 until all your squads are whittled down, banner buff, and warboss buffs. Wagon wheel is just how the game is played.
The Painboy gives a 6+ save to basically everyone in your army if you do this. I've got about 160 models in my footslogging army, and I don't usually lose anyone to leadership outside of models sent off with Da Jump. The Nobz need to be delivered. The KFF/Painboy ammo runtz do that. Those Nobz have to play in the middle of the bubble wrap of Boyz, but that was a good idea anyway to save them from plasma guns. Weirdboyz are the only characters that stay away from that middle; I don't want my characters exploding on a perils result.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a 6+ save is deceptively strong. Each 6+ save allows you to make an additional 6+ save. It's a geometric distribution of 1/6+(1/6)^2+(1/6)^3+etc. That works out to having about 20% extra Orcs if they get to make the save, so an army of 160 acts for durability purposes like a mob of about 190 if they all get the save. The KFF does the same for the Nobz squads and HQs. Both of those buffs roughly turns your ammo runtz into approximately the same durability as space Marines out in the open since AP does not have an effect on the runtz but does have an effect on the space Marines. Those buffs are really good.
Also, a 6+ save is deceptively strong. Each 6+ save allows you to make an additional 6+ save. It's a geometric distribution of 1/6+(1/6)^2+(1/6)^3+etc. That works out to having about 20% extra Orcs if they get to make the save, so an army of 160 acts for durability purposes like a mob of about 190 if they all get the save. The KFF does the same for the Nobz squads and HQs. Both of those buffs roughly turns your ammo runtz into approximately the same durability as space Marines out in the open since AP does not have an effect on the runtz but does have an effect on the space Marines. Those buffs are really good.
Please explain this. Are you talking about having multiple stacking FNP saves, like a painboy + cybork?
Also, a 6+ save is deceptively strong. Each 6+ save allows you to make an additional 6+ save. It's a geometric distribution of 1/6+(1/6)^2+(1/6)^3+etc. That works out to having about 20% extra Orcs if they get to make the save, so an army of 160 acts for durability purposes like a mob of about 190 if they all get the save. The KFF does the same for the Nobz squads and HQs. Both of those buffs roughly turns your ammo runtz into approximately the same durability as space Marines out in the open since AP does not have an effect on the runtz but does have an effect on the space Marines. Those buffs are really good.
Please explain this. Are you talking about having multiple stacking FNP saves, like a painboy + cybork?
KFF + Painboy save probability is 0.333+(1 - 0.3333)*0.167 = 0.444444 save
Each Ork that isn't killed because of a save has to be wounded again to try to kill them. That means the same Ork gets to make several saves. The amount of saves an Ork gets to make beforehand it dies is save percent + p^2 + p^3 + etc. That is what is known as a geometric distribution.
Using the geometric distribution, we can determine how many attacks it takes to kill a model with a 44% chance of saving. A model is killed on the first shot 55% of the time. The amount of saves on total that model needs to be force to take to kill them is 1/0.555555 = 1.8.
That means our KFF and Painboy make it so 18 wounds need to be done to kill our 10 ammo runtz.
Tactics are fairly obvious. Kommandos and koptas deploy off table to threaten opponents back field after they've moved around and provide distractions for my boyz. Some wierdboys for jump, warpath, and smite. Mek gunz and lootas hang out with the void shield and provide fire support. Supa-kannon on the other flank so i dont have just one high toughness model, plus it has the range to possibly force my opponent to move. The boyz do what they do. I'd love to field a stompa. I've been converting one from an old GI Joe armor bot, but at 1000 points for the regular or 1200 for the kustom, i just dont see it being worth while. Similar issues with my dread, morka, and standard battlewagon. Loosing blast weapons is super painful.
LiMunPai wrote: That works out to having about 20% extra Orcs if they get to make the save
Not entirely true. Multi-wound weapons will force you to roll more dice to save every ork. For example, an overcharged plasma will only get saved 1/36 times with a fnp. There's a number of pretty cheap multi-wound weapons. Also, this 20% - even if you somehow manage to get all the boyz in there - which is quite problematic - is not that big of a deal. I'd also like to point out that blobbing up all the squads in one place to benefit from all those auras can also be quite dangerous. Especially if you don't have heavy hitters to wreck tougher vehicles, one land raider or imperial knight can easilly tie up all your boyz for 2-3 turns. Forcing you to disengage and waste time and effectiveness and making it easier to deal with your army piecemeal.
After the game I played last Saturday the only thing I didn't bring that I wish I had was a pain boy. I managed to work both the WAAAGH Banner Nob and a good Mob rule set up to fight a bunch of Thunder Hammer Terminators I killed about 6 or 7 of them in 3 turns. (They used another full squad of marines and an Emperors Champion to win that combat but it held them up for a very long time keeping them from doing anything meaningful. ) I was also wondering where I'd have even put the paint boys probably near the KFF Big Mek and the Warboss and my 30 Grot they were following. At theend of the game My Warboss had taken a single wound and the Grot were screening the KFF and boss still after having trashed 3 squads of Marine left overs maybe 12 or 13 models in 3 units. But as I went first I had to suffer through the other 3 player turns at the end. The KFF plinked off just loads of shots from the marines trying to kill the grot screen to kill the KFF Mek who would have become to closest model.
What a laugh it was and would have been more so with another chance to save the grots. I was owning the center objective for 6 points and had the most kill points already.
Utter madness. Stumping incoming shooting with trash troops is the best. Also took 4 Smasha Guns and 2 Bubble Chukkas. Well the bubble chukka mini game is funny but not really reliable but it gets attention. The Smasha guns on the other hand wreck face. I was rolling 9's and 10's all night so everything they hit was quickly destroyed. They're a fantastic unit.
Take grotsnik instead of a basic painboy. Better save, better toughness, double fnp saves and reliable pk hits, a shooting profile and a nice advance and charge ability for 5poinys more. I wouldn't keep him near the kff mek if it loses you a chance at combat w him.
So thoughts on warlord traits with ghazzy? I've been getting the +1 atk but it's only when charging and I feel like anything ghaz doesn't overkill is things he shouldn't be fighting. The 6+++ would stack with the 6+++ from painboys/grotsnik and as long as he lives with at least one wound he can get D3 wounds back from said painboy.
LiMunPai wrote: That works out to having about 20% extra Orcs if they get to make the save
Not entirely true. Multi-wound weapons will force you to roll more dice to save every ork. For example, an overcharged plasma will only get saved 1/36 times with a fnp. There's a number of pretty cheap multi-wound weapons. Also, this 20% - even if you somehow manage to get all the boyz in there - which is quite problematic - is not that big of a deal. I'd also like to point out that blobbing up all the squads in one place to benefit from all those auras can also be quite dangerous. Especially if you don't have heavy hitters to wreck tougher vehicles, one land raider or imperial knight can easilly tie up all your boyz for 2-3 turns. Forcing you to disengage and waste time and effectiveness and making it easier to deal with your army piecemeal.
You are right. It's better to think of the 6+ as giving each model 0.2 extra wounds (which isn't exactly correct, but close enough at those numbers). The 6+ does practically nothing versus a weapon that does more than one wound.
gungo wrote: Take grotsnik instead of a basic painboy. Better save, better toughness, double fnp saves and reliable pk hits, a shooting profile and a nice advance and charge ability for 5poinys more. I wouldn't keep him near the kff mek if it loses you a chance at combat w him.
I might but I don't usually like Special Characters. I really wish the pain boy wasn't forced to have a Klaw or Saw. I guess it's just a tax. Ether one would be fine near the KFF. I move it up the table and that Mek has a Kill Saw and will fight. The big thing is making sure they can't be hurt, have to charge to go first.I'm happy just hanging around combat as well to pass the buffs to who ever's fighting. It's mostly situational.
Hades wrote: So thoughts on warlord traits with ghazzy? I've been getting the +1 atk but it's only when charging and I feel like anything ghaz doesn't overkill is things he shouldn't be fighting. The 6+++ would stack with the 6+++ from painboys/grotsnik and as long as he lives with at least one wound he can get D3 wounds back from said painboy.
If zhardsnark is your warlord you should almost always take the 1 ATk because it's rare when he doesn't get the charge.
However ghaz is a bit slower but not much since he can move advance and charge. I don't find him having 7 atks in the charge a waste because outside of high invul 4+ or better units or cheap hordes (aka conscripts) ghaz you pretty much is my main anti tank when he's on the table.
But if ghaz is your warlord he's a huge target and it never hurts making him extra durable. So either choice is good for him.
Been playing 100% of my games at 2000 points, but need 100 PL to participate in FLGS campaign and finding ALL of my lists way above 100PL at that point level.
Do any units really shine in a PL list?
Finding I need to make a lot of difficult cuts from what I like to play normally.
Bigdoza wrote: Been playing 100% of my games at 2000 points, but need 100 PL to participate in FLGS campaign and finding ALL of my lists way above 100PL at that point level.
Do any units really shine in a PL list?
Finding I need to make a lot of difficult cuts from what I like to play normally.
Has anyone done well at this PL?
Powerlevel is broke with stuff that can take a bunch of gear.
Nobz or nob bikers all with kill saws and kombi skorchas or rokkits are best for maxing out points while keeping lower powerlevel.
Bigdoza wrote: Been playing 100% of my games at 2000 points, but need 100 PL to participate in FLGS campaign and finding ALL of my lists way above 100PL at that point level.
Do any units really shine in a PL list?
Finding I need to make a lot of difficult cuts from what I like to play normally.
Has anyone done well at this PL?
Powerlevel is broke with stuff that can take a bunch of gear.
Nobz or nob bikers all with kill saws and kombi skorchas or rokkits are best for maxing out points while keeping lower powerlevel.
Agreed 100%. Not all indexes have the power level problems orks do...but the ork index power levels were probably written after everyone at GW just got drunk and started writing numbers randomly.
Take all your stormboyz, as they are the same price as boyz. Big Gunz and Mek Gunz are also pretty cheap as you can pick the most expensive options. Tankbustas also. Free squigs anyone?
Tactics are fairly obvious. Kommandos and koptas deploy off table to threaten opponents back field after they've moved around and provide distractions for my boyz. Some wierdboys for jump, warpath, and smite. Mek gunz and lootas hang out with the void shield and provide fire support. Supa-kannon on the other flank so i dont have just one high toughness model, plus it has the range to possibly force my opponent to move. The boyz do what they do. I'd love to field a stompa. I've been converting one from an old GI Joe armor bot, but at 1000 points for the regular or 1200 for the kustom, i just dont see it being worth while. Similar issues with my dread, morka, and standard battlewagon. Loosing blast weapons is super painful.
If you split the Mek guns you can take another spearhead detachment for an extra CP.
Would trade the smash gun for a bubblechukka though - it`s to orky!
3 squads of boys is not too much. Most of the 2000 point lists have them also.^^
If you want a stompa take the small stompa aka Gorkanaut - or 3 of them for the same points.
Tactics are fairly obvious. Kommandos and koptas deploy off table to threaten opponents back field after they've moved around and provide distractions for my boyz. Some wierdboys for jump, warpath, and smite. Mek gunz and lootas hang out with the void shield and provide fire support. Supa-kannon on the other flank so i dont have just one high toughness model, plus it has the range to possibly force my opponent to move. The boyz do what they do. I'd love to field a stompa. I've been converting one from an old GI Joe armor bot, but at 1000 points for the regular or 1200 for the kustom, i just dont see it being worth while. Similar issues with my dread, morka, and standard battlewagon. Loosing blast weapons is super painful.
If you split the Mek guns you can take another spearhead detachment for an extra CP.
Would trade the smash gun for a bubblechukka though - it`s to orky!
3 squads of boys is not too much. Most of the 2000 point lists have them also.^^
If you want a stompa take the small stompa aka Gorkanaut - or 3 of them for the same points.
The rest looks solid.
I know I'm light on mobs, but if I cut anything for more, it'll basically be a green horde. Lucky for me, I usually play with friends/family, so it's not crazy competitive and I can get away with some fun stuff that may not be the most efficient. The bubble chukka looks fun, but it just doesn't do it for me. The way I'm reading the overheat rules for the kmk, it takes 1 mortal wound max, no matter how many dice are thrown. "If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after shots are resolved." Is this how people are playing it? Do you think it would be worth it to switch the wagon for a gorkanought? My usual opponents are Death Guard and Necrons, so most of the shots coming my way are short/medium range and crossing most of the table isnt too troubling. Eventually I'm gonna have to field that kustom stompa, just can't decide how to support it.
gungo wrote:You know it would be fluffy and cool if not very competitive if we could give every nob in a nob unit cybork bodies however it only allows 1 in 5 to have it. Which is sad because there are awsome 3rd party models to add cybork legs and arms to ork boys.
Interesting you mention running the painboy with the Nobz... I've been planning on giving them cyborg bodies instead and sending them off on their own (maybe with a banner) and keeping my painboys closer to my boyz. I know it's best to keep everything together but in practice that often doesn't happen, with the opponent having important units away from their main battleline, or there being an objective that needs grabbing. I do only run units of 5 to be fair (and so the cyborg upgrade is only 25pts) but I feel it's worth it for the extra independence.
Negative Nancy chiming in again, but save the points on those Cyborg and Painboy additions. Unless you want to be fluffy then go ahead.
25pts for a 6+ save. Nobz cost 17pts with 2wounds, so each wound is about 9pts worth. In order to make back those 25pts you need to save 3 wounds minimum with those additions. If you have 5 nobz with Cybork you have 10 wounds total. The chance of rolling 3 6s for them is very small. statistically you are more likely to roll 1 MAYBE 2 but 3 is pushing your lucky pretty far. For those 25pts though you could get another nob and another runt.
For Boyz squads its kind of worse. If you are running a Painboy without any upgrades you need to save 11 boyz models in order to earn back those points (unless you are taking it to heal your weirdboy) but that means you need to roll 11 6s. if you have 60 Boyz within 3in of your Painboy you will statistically roll 10 6s, and that is only if they all die. And honestly if it gets to that point you probably will lose them to Morale anyway so who cares?
Again though, for those 65pts you can field almost 11 more boyz, or 10 boyz a nob and a Big Choppa.
There is very little point in taking protective buffs like that anymore. The same is true for things like the Big Mek with KFF, he needs to save 13 models that would have died without his KFF in order to make back his points, and worse for him at least, he only extends a bubble of protection so you have to cram all those units into close contact with him in order to get the save, that means you are yielding a large part of the board to your enemy.
Statistically, having more models instead of a painboy or KFF supporting them may be better, but this isn't always practical in game. Say it's a unit of 19 Boyz and a Painboy in a Battlewagon. Sure, having 26 boyz or whatever might be mathematically better, but those 26 boyz aren't going to fit in the transport. Same with units of 30, that's the max size, so you can't increase it further, although I suppose you can take another squad in that instance. Still, I'd rather have a unit of 30 Boyz Da Jumping up the battlefield and a painboy on a bike behind them to support them, rather than having another unit of 12 boyz that's only going to be able to offer support next turn.
Plus, there's a financial and time cost to consider with so many boyz
LiMunPai wrote:
CP are not designated at the beginning of the game; you get to determine their use on the fly.
Good to hear
gungo wrote:Take grotsnik instead of a basic painboy. Better save, better toughness, double fnp saves and reliable pk hits, a shooting profile and a nice advance and charge ability for 5poinys more. I wouldn't keep him near the kff mek if it loses you a chance at combat w him.
Hey everyone. After seeing the recent tourny results, it seems the popular competitive Ork list is some variant on 120 Boyz w/ Ghaz. I've tried my hand at it, but after two games have not found success. Can I get some advice?
Here's my 2000 pt list:
Spoiler:
Supreme Command HQ Big Mek on Bike (KFF)
Big Mek on Bike (KFF)
Weirdboy
Brigade HQ Ghaz
Zagstruk
Weirdboy
Troops 30x Shoota Boyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
30x Shoota Boyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
30x Shoota Boyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
30x Shoota Boyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
Elites Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner
Painboy
Painboy
Fast Attack 5x Stormboyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
5x Stormboyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
5x Stormboyz (Boss Nob w/ Big Choppa)
Heavy Support 1x Mek Gunz (Kustom Mega-Kannon)
1x Mek Gunz (Kustom Mega-Kannon)
1x Mek Gunz (Kustom Mega-Kannon)
Some questions:
1) Am I crippling myself by trying to fill a Brigade detachment? Stormboyz are the main outlier that you don't see in other Green Tide lists... but I needed FA to fill the Brigade.
2) Game 1 lost against Tau. Game 2 lost against Deathwatch/Scions. Neither game was close. Are these supposed to be tough matchups?
3) In both games, Turn 1 when I warpath & jump 30 Boyz into their backline they couldn't make the charge. So they sit there without a Painboy or KFF and all die. Are there some games where I simply shouldn't jump Boyz ahead of the tide?
If you can take a brigade go for it. More CP allows you to reroll 1 die for charges and other useful stuff like rerolling ghaz 4+ invul however it's not worth designing a list just to fill slots.
I like your list but your meta is fine with forgeworld take zhardsnark. He's the fastest most reliable PK.
The real question for you is what in your list performed well and what didn't? Multiple painboys are a bit redundant and expensive. I'd just take mad doc and keep him near the main blob of boys and the wierdboys.
I like storm boys and zagstrukk but they don't always perform as you'd hope for the cost.
Some people like KMK guns and some don't if they didn't do that well for you try kannon spam. You get almost 2 kannons for every KMK.
I'd squeeze in a 3rd wierdboy if they did well for you. D6 smite mortal wounds are decent.
Also most tourney lists I see have 180 boys at 6 units x30 however that may not be fun for you and tiresome unless you use movement trays.
Or you can say screw what the internet says and take what you like and works for you. Like I lenjoy my tabkbusta x2 unit trukk. It's not in every comp list but it's fun.and 120 seems to be my cap on boys. And as soon as forgeworld says I can play a mega dread w 2x supa skorchas I'll be making my dread list.
Some questions:
1) Am I crippling myself by trying to fill a Brigade detachment? Stormboyz are the main outlier that you don't see in other Green Tide lists... but I needed FA to fill the Brigade.
2) Game 1 lost against Tau. Game 2 lost against Deathwatch/Scions. Neither game was close. Are these supposed to be tough matchups?
3) In both games, Turn 1 when I warpath & jump 30 Boyz into their backline they couldn't make the charge. So they sit there without a Painboy or KFF and all die. Are there some games where I simply shouldn't jump Boyz ahead of the tide?
1) Yes, I think you are. KMKs and stormboyz are not bad options, but your list would almost certainly be stronger with more boyz, and most importantly, a warboss with big choppa on a bike. Or two. The waaagh is the single most important buff for a greentide list. All your units should advance every turn until they can get the charge.
2) They can be tough matchups, but I think they are both mid-tier factions like Orks.
3) Jumping them ahead is fine. They will all get killed, but any shooting directed at the teleported squad is not directed at your main army. But if you jump squads ahead, then the KFF meks become redundant. Swap your bike meks for two warboss on bikes with big Choppas. Swap your KMKs for more boyz. Convert half of your Boyz into slugga Boyz. Ditch zagstrukk, he is only efficient if you have very large blobs of stormboyz that needs the fearless buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bigdoza wrote: Been playing 100% of my games at 2000 points, but need 100 PL to participate in FLGS campaign and finding ALL of my lists way above 100PL at that point level.
Do any units really shine in a PL list?
Try this:
With an outrider and vanguard detachment take:
Boss zagstrukk
3x30 stormboyz
Big Mek on bike with KFF 5x15 tankbustas with 5x6 bomb squigs
100 PL.
Have fun insta gibbing landraiders, baneblades and knights with your 30 bombsquigs and 75 tankbustas. And for extra rage quit encircle his transports with your 90 stormboyz before you kill them, so all his embarked units will be autoslain when they are forced to disembark.
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 120pts]: Kombi-Skorcha, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek on Bike [6 PL, 120pts]: Kombi-Skorcha, Kustom Force Field
+ Elites +
Nobz on Bike [28 PL, 774pts] . Boss Nob on Bike: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
Nobz on Bike [28 PL, 774pts] . Boss Nob on Bike: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
Nobz on Bike [28 PL, 774pts] . Boss Nob on Bike: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
. Nob: Kombi-Skorcha, Power Klaw
Some questions:
1) Am I crippling myself by trying to fill a Brigade detachment? Stormboyz are the main outlier that you don't see in other Green Tide lists... but I needed FA to fill the Brigade.
2) Game 1 lost against Tau. Game 2 lost against Deathwatch/Scions. Neither game was close. Are these supposed to be tough matchups?
3) In both games, Turn 1 when I warpath & jump 30 Boyz into their backline they couldn't make the charge. So they sit there without a Painboy or KFF and all die. Are there some games where I simply shouldn't jump Boyz ahead of the tide?
1) Yes, I think you are. KMKs and stormboyz are not bad options, but your list would almost certainly be stronger with more boyz, and most importantly, a warboss with big choppa on a bike. Or two. The waaagh is the single most important buff for a greentide list. All your units should advance every turn until they can get the charge.
2) They can be tough matchups, but I think they are both mid-tier factions like Orks.
3) Jumping them ahead is fine. They will all get killed, but any shooting directed at the teleported squad is not directed at your main army. But if you jump squads ahead, then the KFF meks become redundant. Swap your bike meks for two warboss on bikes with big Choppas. Swap your KMKs for more boyz. Convert half of your Boyz into slugga Boyz. Ditch zagstrukk, he is only efficient if you have very large blobs of stormboyz that needs the fearless buff.
1) So you don't feel Ghaz is enough source of Waaagh? I guess an extra Zhadsnark or Bikerboss allows the tide to go in different directions.
3) But those boys are my main army. If they don't hit their 9" charge then all I've done is siphon off a chunk of my horde to die a painful death without KFF or FNP. So I'm worried that by jumping them I'm flipping a coin, ya know?
Some questions:
1) Am I crippling myself by trying to fill a Brigade detachment? Stormboyz are the main outlier that you don't see in other Green Tide lists... but I needed FA to fill the Brigade.
2) Game 1 lost against Tau. Game 2 lost against Deathwatch/Scions. Neither game was close. Are these supposed to be tough matchups?
3) In both games, Turn 1 when I warpath & jump 30 Boyz into their backline they couldn't make the charge. So they sit there without a Painboy or KFF and all die. Are there some games where I simply shouldn't jump Boyz ahead of the tide?
1) Yes, I think you are. KMKs and stormboyz are not bad options, but your list would almost certainly be stronger with more boyz, and most importantly, a warboss with big choppa on a bike. Or two. The waaagh is the single most important buff for a greentide list. All your units should advance every turn until they can get the charge.
2) They can be tough matchups, but I think they are both mid-tier factions like Orks.
3) Jumping them ahead is fine. They will all get killed, but any shooting directed at the teleported squad is not directed at your main army. But if you jump squads ahead, then the KFF meks become redundant. Swap your bike meks for two warboss on bikes with big Choppas. Swap your KMKs for more boyz. Convert half of your Boyz into slugga Boyz. Ditch zagstrukk, he is only efficient if you have very large blobs of stormboyz that needs the fearless buff.
1) So you don't feel Ghaz is enough source of Waaagh? I guess an extra Zhadsnark or Bikerboss allows the tide to go in different directions.
3) But those boys are my main army. If they don't hit their 9" charge then all I've done is siphon off a chunk of my horde to die a painful death without KFF or FNP. So I'm worried that by jumping them I'm flipping a coin, ya know?
You don't really want just 1 unit to show up down range, unless you really like to gamble. I'd recommend jumping on the same turn you have kommandos (or deffkoptas, or warbuggies, or w/e) show up, so your opponent is forced to split fire or leave something largely untouched.
Turn 1 da jump unit is obviously suicidal in nature.
Shootas work best on these can reach out and touch a lot of stuff nearby.
Then you attempt to charge one threat to your other forces and pile in to as many other units as possible.
If everything else you have is cooking up the field at top speed they won't be too far behind.
Sometimes I drop them on a flank singleing out a big threat using LOS to block off most of their armies view.
Even doing a full wrap of their stuff at max contingency isn't a waste. Unless they have fly they are wrapped up in a nice package for the rest of your army moving up to enjoy.
Some questions:
1) Am I crippling myself by trying to fill a Brigade detachment? Stormboyz are the main outlier that you don't see in other Green Tide lists... but I needed FA to fill the Brigade.
2) Game 1 lost against Tau. Game 2 lost against Deathwatch/Scions. Neither game was close. Are these supposed to be tough matchups?
3) In both games, Turn 1 when I warpath & jump 30 Boyz into their backline they couldn't make the charge. So they sit there without a Painboy or KFF and all die. Are there some games where I simply shouldn't jump Boyz ahead of the tide?
Regarding 2) while army balance has gotten better, some match ups are still just tough. The Tau have a lot of S5 and S7 weapons, balanced by having lower AP. We have a lot of low armor targets, balanced by having T4 or T6. Unless you are specifically building to beat Tau, or they are trying out something new and fancy, they are always going to have really strong tools to take you down. Make sure you play different folks, or if your friend plays Tau then talk to them about it, see if they're cool playing with a handicap and doing some kind of "face down the horde!" scenario.
3) Banking your whole game on a Turn 1 jump is risky as hell. It could work if you jump shootas, and back them up with stormboyz, so your whole army is in their face and able to do something. What you want to avoid is staggering your units, so they effectively fight 2 small armies one at a time.
Tactics are fairly obvious. Kommandos and koptas deploy off table to threaten opponents back field after they've moved around and provide distractions for my boyz. Some wierdboys for jump, warpath, and smite. Mek gunz and lootas hang out with the void shield and provide fire support. Supa-kannon on the other flank so i dont have just one high toughness model, plus it has the range to possibly force my opponent to move. The boyz do what they do. I'd love to field a stompa. I've been converting one from an old GI Joe armor bot, but at 1000 points for the regular or 1200 for the kustom, i just dont see it being worth while. Similar issues with my dread, morka, and standard battlewagon. Loosing blast weapons is super painful.
If you split the Mek guns you can take another spearhead detachment for an extra CP.
Would trade the smash gun for a bubblechukka though - it`s to orky!
3 squads of boys is not too much. Most of the 2000 point lists have them also.^^
If you want a stompa take the small stompa aka Gorkanaut - or 3 of them for the same points.
The rest looks solid.
I know I'm light on mobs, but if I cut anything for more, it'll basically be a green horde. Lucky for me, I usually play with friends/family, so it's not crazy competitive and I can get away with some fun stuff that may not be the most efficient. The bubble chukka looks fun, but it just doesn't do it for me. The way I'm reading the overheat rules for the kmk, it takes 1 mortal wound max, no matter how many dice are thrown. "If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after shots are resolved." Is this how people are playing it? Do you think it would be worth it to switch the wagon for a gorkanought? My usual opponents are Death Guard and Necrons, so most of the shots coming my way are short/medium range and crossing most of the table isnt too troubling. Eventually I'm gonna have to field that kustom stompa, just can't decide how to support it.
p.s. Thanks for the advice
Yeah thats allright, i prefer mixed lists over green tide as well. So 3 mobs should be ok, especially when not playing totally maxed out.
But a good opponent will try to get all your 3 mobs under 20 models pretty fast so keep them as safe as you can.
And yes, it`s just 1 mortal wound for the KMK.
For what do you use your wagon? Embark all buff characters to have less deployment drops?
With ard case you can`t put anything to shoot in it and just for 4 rokkits it`s a bit expensive.
The Gorkanaut can fire most of the weapons on 36" so it would be ok vs Necrons.
On the one hand yut you need to get some points free for that, on the other you get a lot more firepower and he is better in CC as well.
If you switch the void shield for a plasma obliterator you get some extra firepower and your lootas are even more safe inside.
Just reduce them to 10 cause thats the maximum to fire from inside. Or 9 and put the Mek with SAG with them.^^
The gunz have to survive in cover or swap some of them to lobbas and put them out of sight which would also give you extra points.
Don`t think you can fit a stompa in that list because it`s simply to expensive and you have a lot expensive stuff allready.
Btw you play Bad Moons? All that extra gear is nice and flashy.
Here my suggestion:
Orks: Brigade Detachment - 2283 points
Big Mek + KFF Big Mek + Shokk attack gun
Wyrdboy
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
Mad Dok Grotsnik
Nob with Waaagh! Banner
5 Kommandos, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob, Big choppa
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
For a 3000 pointer this list is seriously devoid of anti tank.
Opponent will have a lot of armor in that high of a point game and this has no consistent way of removing an armored unit per turn outside of crazy hot rolling and Ghaz.
The Gork will be a complete liability. It's 9" radius d6 mortal wound explosion can really hurt and it will get blown up as there isn't anything else to draw lazcannon fire.
Might have something left by turn 5 if you are lucky. If you go second might not be a lot left by turn two. People have a lot of shots at 3k.
With Shootas you don't have to jump them 9 inches away and assault to be useful. I had Snikrot sneak in before the jump to offer the boyz some moral support (because losing fifteen then rolling morale def is gonna cost you Command Points).
I wouldn't consider jumping Meganobz unless I had a whole army of meganobz and deff dreadz. Forcing an opponent to roll random dice to get fifteen to thirty wounds seems harder then giving them the option to just choose their -3 AP weapons. I think it is better to force your opponent to roll more dice as opposed to making solid choices, in most cases, this is why I would choose the Shoota Boyz. Situations can vary though.
Tactics are fairly obvious. Kommandos and koptas deploy off table to threaten opponents back field after they've moved around and provide distractions for my boyz. Some wierdboys for jump, warpath, and smite. Mek gunz and lootas hang out with the void shield and provide fire support. Supa-kannon on the other flank so i dont have just one high toughness model, plus it has the range to possibly force my opponent to move. The boyz do what they do. I'd love to field a stompa. I've been converting one from an old GI Joe armor bot, but at 1000 points for the regular or 1200 for the kustom, i just dont see it being worth while. Similar issues with my dread, morka, and standard battlewagon. Loosing blast weapons is super painful.
If you split the Mek guns you can take another spearhead detachment for an extra CP.
Would trade the smash gun for a bubblechukka though - it`s to orky!
3 squads of boys is not too much. Most of the 2000 point lists have them also.^^
If you want a stompa take the small stompa aka Gorkanaut - or 3 of them for the same points.
The rest looks solid.
I know I'm light on mobs, but if I cut anything for more, it'll basically be a green horde. Lucky for me, I usually play with friends/family, so it's not crazy competitive and I can get away with some fun stuff that may not be the most efficient. The bubble chukka looks fun, but it just doesn't do it for me. The way I'm reading the overheat rules for the kmk, it takes 1 mortal wound max, no matter how many dice are thrown. "If you roll one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after shots are resolved." Is this how people are playing it? Do you think it would be worth it to switch the wagon for a gorkanought? My usual opponents are Death Guard and Necrons, so most of the shots coming my way are short/medium range and crossing most of the table isnt too troubling. Eventually I'm gonna have to field that kustom stompa, just can't decide how to support it.
p.s. Thanks for the advice
Yeah thats allright, i prefer mixed lists over green tide as well. So 3 mobs should be ok, especially when not playing totally maxed out.
But a good opponent will try to get all your 3 mobs under 20 models pretty fast so keep them as safe as you can.
And yes, it`s just 1 mortal wound for the KMK.
For what do you use your wagon? Embark all buff characters to have less deployment drops?
With ard case you can`t put anything to shoot in it and just for 4 rokkits it`s a bit expensive.
The Gorkanaut can fire most of the weapons on 36" so it would be ok vs Necrons.
On the one hand yut you need to get some points free for that, on the other you get a lot more firepower and he is better in CC as well.
If you switch the void shield for a plasma obliterator you get some extra firepower and your lootas are even more safe inside.
Just reduce them to 10 cause thats the maximum to fire from inside. Or 9 and put the Mek with SAG with them.^^
The gunz have to survive in cover or swap some of them to lobbas and put them out of sight which would also give you extra points.
Don`t think you can fit a stompa in that list because it`s simply to expensive and you have a lot expensive stuff allready.
Btw you play Bad Moons? All that extra gear is nice and flashy.
Here my suggestion:
Orks: Brigade Detachment - 2283 points
Big Mek + KFF Big Mek + Shokk attack gun
Wyrdboy
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
30 Boyz, 7 x Shoota, 1 x Big shoota, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob w. Big choppa
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
10 Gretchin
Mad Dok Grotsnik
Nob with Waaagh! Banner
5 Kommandos, 2 x Rokkit launcha + Boss Nob, Big choppa
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
2 Deffkoptas, 2 x Kopta rokkits
1 Mek Gun, 1 x Kustom mega-kannon
1 Mek Gun, 1 x Kustom mega-kannon
1 Big Gun, 1 x Lobba
Orks: Forticication Detachment - 190 points
1 Void shield generator or 1 plasma obliterator
Exact 3000 points, PL 178, and 14 CP instead of your 9 CP before.
Wagon use kinda depends on who my opponent is. The supa-kannon is 2d6 at 60" s8 ap-2 and d3, so it can trade blows with ememy armor. The rokkits discourage deep striking monoliths and the like or it can follow the boyz up the table and provide extra high strength medium range shots.
Definitely going to try to reorganize for those extra CP. I like the void shield because it can cover the lootas and mek gunz while my kff mek covers boyz or a vehicle, but I can see the plasma obliterate as a good option. I'd probably go the 9 lootas and sag.
Are the grots good for anything other than screens? They don't feel like they have a good job to do. Is it worth 90pts for the extra cp?
I'm using the goffs key word and the ghaz special rules to represent a freebooter kaptin and krew. I'm working on modifying him to have a pirate hat and a jolly roger back banner. My wife can sculpt and promised to make me a great coat for him.
I used to have an armored column army (old chapter approved list I think) that I cannibalized, so my mek gunz, loota weapons, and all vehicles and walkers are converted from imperial bits. Even my gun krews are re-purposed guardsmen "slaves." I'd like to think I nailed my theme
Edit: Honestly, the biggest reason I want the wagon is I spent a lot of effort making it out of a pair of Leman russes and a chimera
Rismonite wrote: With Shootas you don't have to jump them 9 inches away and assault to be useful. I had Snikrot sneak in before the jump to offer the boyz some moral support (because losing fifteen then rolling morale def is gonna cost you Command Points).
I wouldn't consider jumping Meganobz unless I had a whole army of meganobz and deff dreadz. Forcing an opponent to roll random dice to get fifteen to thirty wounds seems harder then giving them the option to just choose their -3 AP weapons. I think it is better to force your opponent to roll more dice as opposed to making solid choices, in most cases, this is why I would choose the Shoota Boyz. Situations can vary though.
Well it's a good thing you could choose to jump manz to a point where there are not so -3 weapons around........
These arguments against jumping mega armor nobs are ridiculous. So far I have heard its not good because they don't have an invulnerable save and only 2+ armor save, and because you have to jump straight at all -3 weapons lol k
Well it's a good thing you could choose to jump manz to a point where there are not so -3 weapons around........
These arguments against jumping mega armor nobs are ridiculous. So far I have heard its not good because they don't have an invulnerable save and only 2+ armor save, and because you have to jump straight at all -3 weapons lol k
I understand what they mean though. Versus a Speese Mehreen Player, Deep Striking Meganobz will draw Lascannon or Plasma Cannon Fire, whichever they have nearby, and those shots will drill those Meganobz and easily make their points back on that turn alone. A Single Lascannon will hit 2/3rds of the time, wound 5/6ths of the time and roll a 3+ 2/3rds of the time. So a unit of 4 will likely decimate i not outright kill 3 Meganobz.
At the same time, that goes along with target saturation, (kind of sucks we can only do this 1 time a turn) but if you also have some Kommandos showing up and some Deff Koptas popping around the enemy rear you can probably pull off a good amount of surprise.
Edit: Honestly, the biggest reason I want the wagon is I spent a lot of effort making it out of a pair of Leman russes and a chimera
Ha! I know that feeling. Then just go for it and shoot da gitz.
Are the grots good for anything other than screens? They don't feel like they have a good job to do. Is it worth 90pts for the extra cp?
Screening vs deepstriking stuff and late game objective grabbing.
In maelstrom they are important to get victory points from objectives in your deployment zone so you can bring the rest to the enemy.
But since everybody can hold objectives and you have some shooty stuff you should be allright.
I personally take them often because it fits the Bad Moons and they proved good for me.
But we play with a lot terrain + maelstrom which is both good for grot.
I like your grot slaves count as.
IG is perfect for converting for us orks.
With the turn 1 Da Jump, don't get so aggressive. Put the Boyz in charge range at the closest point to the main body of your horde, then trail Boyz back to get the banner and Painboy buffs. Don't jump if they are all the way pushed back towards their table edge; they are ceding the table and scenario to you, so just take that and stay in KFF.
Edit: Honestly, the biggest reason I want the wagon is I spent a lot of effort making it out of a pair of Leman russes and a chimera
Ha! I know that feeling. Then just go for it and shoot da gitz.
Are the grots good for anything other than screens? They don't feel like they have a good job to do. Is it worth 90pts for the extra cp?
Screening vs deepstriking stuff and late game objective grabbing.
In maelstrom they are important to get victory points from objectives in your deployment zone so you can bring the rest to the enemy.
But since everybody can hold objectives and you have some shooty stuff you should be allright.
I personally take them often because it fits the Bad Moons and they proved good for me.
But we play with a lot terrain + maelstrom which is both good for grot.
I like your grot slaves count as.
IG is perfect for converting for us orks.
Good point. Thanks, you've given me a lot to consider. I'll give my list a rework when I've got some time
3 Killa Kans with Grotzookas and Deff Dread with 2x Skorcha
Or
3 Killa Kans with Big Shoots and Deff Dread with 2x Claws and Mek.
Rest of the list is Warboss, 2x Weirdboys, 2x30 Boyz with Power Klaws or Big Choppas and 10 Gretchin. (For battalion and possibly Spearhead, unsure whether to keep those Kans separate or grouped).
LiMunPai wrote: With the turn 1 Da Jump, don't get so aggressive. Put the Boyz in charge range at the closest point to the main body of your horde, then trail Boyz back to get the banner and Painboy buffs. Don't jump if they are all the way pushed back towards their table edge; they are ceding the table and scenario to you, so just take that and stay in KFF.
This. Another disadvantage of Da Jumping into their deployment zone is it puts all their back units in range or rapid fire. If anything, put them on the flank but on the same side as your biggest blobs, overloading that side. The watch your opponent squirm!
3 Killa Kans with Grotzookas and Deff Dread with 2x Skorcha
Or
3 Killa Kans with Big Shoots and Deff Dread with 2x Claws and Mek.
Rest of the list is Warboss, 2x Weirdboys, 2x30 Boyz with Power Klaws or Big Choppas and 10 Gretchin. (For battalion and possibly Spearhead, unsure whether to keep those Kans separate or grouped).
Grotzookas aren't as good as they used to be. I'd go with big shootas or rokkits for the kans and the double claws for the dread.
Jumping meganobz could be ok only if you run a mechanized list, in order to let them soak the anti tank. Meganobz are very good against anti infantry weapons since their 2+ and 3W will absorb a lot of firepower before losing a single model. But a single round of anti tank firepower is enough to cripple them badly if not completely wiping them out. A charge from deep strike is difficult, so they will likely get the attention of the enemy for a turn before having the possibility to charge.
I prefer a BW to deliver meganobz to be honest, but if the list has good synergy they may work.
What are the pros and cons of meganobz vs nobz in a mech list? Nobz seem to be having more damage for points but manz are much more durable vs small arms and d2 weapons.
koooaei wrote: What are the pros and cons of meganobz vs nobz in a mech list? Nobz seem to be having more damage for points but manz are much more durable vs small arms and d2 weapons.
Nobz has a durability advantage because they can take a couple of plain nobz and an ammo runt or two for ablative wounds. On the other hand they have a worse armour save.
Meganobz can take twin killsaws which is good, but probably does not make up for their higher price and extra transport space requirements. I think kombiweapons are too expensive.
Nobz also has the advantage, that a min-squad can fit in a trukk with a min squad of tankbustas + two bombsquigs. With meganobz you only get one bombsquig. In a gorkanaut a minsquad of nobz can ride besides a bannernob. Bannernobs buffs both walkers and infantry considerably.
3 Killa Kans with Grotzookas and Deff Dread with 2x Skorcha
Or
3 Killa Kans with Big Shoots and Deff Dread with 2x Claws and Mek.
Rest of the list is Warboss, 2x Weirdboys, 2x30 Boyz with Power Klaws or Big Choppas and 10 Gretchin. (For battalion and possibly Spearhead, unsure whether to keep those Kans separate or grouped).
Ended up going with the Grotzookas and Skorchas.
Killa Kans didn't do much but they did tie up an enemy unit and kept it out my deployment.
Deff Dread was clutch. Skorched some Pox Walkers and threatened the Dark Apostle and caused it not to charge Boyz.
I'm just waiting for FW to release the mega dread datasheet.
and I don't think dread is our strongest list but I do think you can make it work and be fun.
With something like a
zhardsnark
weird boy w da jump (use da jump on mega nobs)
Bigmek on bike w kff (covers killkans)
a meka dread with kff (covers dreads and gork first few turns)
a mega dread with double supa skorcha and mega charga
2x deff dreads w 3xklaw and skorcha
6x killkans w 6xbigshootas
gorkanaut (place meganobs inside gorkanaut first turn)
3x double kill saw mega nobs
Turn 1 should have the meganobs and megadread and zhardsnark in your opponents face.
the gorkanaut, mekadread and 2x dreads should be dropping support fire and progressing for a turn 2 charge w a 5+ invul protecting them.
The rear line has the big mek on bike, weirdboy and 6x killkans with a 5+ invul dropping support fire and it can also progress down the field if needed.
Everything but the weirdboy is toughness 5 or higher with a 3+ sv and 5+ invul. lots of str5 or better shooting and lots of str8 or higher atks. Issue is low model count (17) and high drops (10). Also has 9 command points to reroll charges or reroll ramshackle or saves.
From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
gungo wrote: I'm just waiting for FW to release the mega dread datasheet.
and I don't think dread is our strongest list but I do think you can make it work and be fun.
With something like a
Spoiler:
zhardsnark
weird boy w da jump (use da jump on mega nobs)
Bigmek on bike w kff (covers killkans)
a meka dread with kff (covers dreads and gork first few turns)
a mega dread with double supa skorcha and mega charga
2x deff dreads w 3xklaw and skorcha
6x killkans w 6xbigshootas
gorkanaut (place meganobs inside gorkanaut first turn)
3x double kill saw mega nobs
Turn 1 should have the meganobs and megadread and zhardsnark in your opponents face.
the gorkanaut, mekadread and 2x dreads should be dropping support fire and progressing for a turn 2 charge w a 5+ invul protecting them.
The rear line has the big mek on bike, weirdboy and 6x killkans with a 5+ invul dropping support fire and it can also progress down the field if needed.
Everything but the weirdboy is toughness 5 or higher with a 3+ sv and 5+ invul. lots of str5 or better shooting and lots of str8 or higher atks. Issue is low model count (17) and high drops (10). Also has 9 command points to reroll charges or reroll ramshackle or saves.
I think you want to get Banner Nobz in there somehow, and always be sure the Kanz aren't too far from Ld 8.
Basically two groups of six kanz, a dread, a KFF mek, and a Banner Nob walking on either side of a Gorkanaught with a weirdboy and burna boyz inside. Lots of 5+ Toughness to marginalize small arms, the modifiers to make walkers shine, and skorchas to try and mitigate mobz. It ain't fast or shooty at all, but it's a lot of choppy on t5+ models.
PK are usually more efficient, and Klaws have always been the best way for Orks to deal with pesky enemy wagonz and such.
On squads of Nobz and on Warbosses they are currently more efficient due to the high cost of the platform carrying the klaw. (You can't just do the math as 25pt klaw vs 9 pt Big Choppa).
On Boss Nob in squad of boyz they are ~ 20% less efficient vs T7 3+, but more efficient vs T8.
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
I think you want to get Banner Nobz in there somehow, and always be sure the Kanz aren't too far from Ld 8.
What do you mean by that?
4s to hit in combat instead of 5s
Killa Kans are susceptible to morale since they can't share LD through Mob Rule. May be worthwhile having a Warboss for D3 mortal wounds instead of outright losing models
bosswoodfox wrote: PK are usually more efficient, and Klaws have always been the best way for Orks to deal with pesky enemy wagonz and such.
On squads of Nobz and on Warbosses they are currently more efficient due to the high cost of the platform carrying the klaw. (You can't just do the math as 25pt klaw vs 9 pt Big Choppa).
On Boss Nob in squad of boyz they are ~ 20% less efficient vs T7 3+, but more efficient vs T8.
The Big Choppa is better vs infantry but a kunnin' Nob lets da boyz take care of da gitz while he finds a shiny wagon to klaw.
If you must shave 16 pts off your list, only then take a Big choppa.
The analysis for PKs against armor had gotten better since the thread you posted. The nerf to flyers means an Ork army can just kill everything on the ground instead of trying to hurt the flyers. That makes Ork melee a much much better solution.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a reference list for the most competitive build I think we have:
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
KFF doesn't help Nobz out as much as you think nor do Painboyz. I broke down the math a bit ago, but basically you need to make a lot of saves to justify the existence of the painboy and KFF and you won't make your points back most of the time. For starters the KFF is only good on AP-2 and better weapons on Nobz because they have a standard 4+ Save. So right off the bat most weapons you aren't going to be using that KFF on. Next, against AP-2 and better weapons you get that 5++ which is nice but you need to make about 8 to justify the KFF. After that you need to make about 7 6+FNP saves to justify the existence of the Painboy. So, lets break that down, in order to make 7 saves of 5++ you are most likely going to fail 14 times, 14 AP-2 wounds (usually D3 or 2+ damage each) will kill about 14 Nobz the 6+ FNP will maybe save 4ish of those since you get 1 for every wound lost. So you have justified the existence of the KFF but the Painboy will never be able to make his points back because he only has 6 models left to save, or 12 wounds. He is again likely to save 2 of those. So you are investing a rather huge number of points into a relatively small unit in the hope of making it across the field. Someone else mentioned earlier that you could take something like 120 more boyz for the same price.
I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dokz Toolz may well be estimated to be 15 to 20 points
KFF doesn't help Nobz out as much as you think nor do Painboyz. I broke down the math a bit ago, but basically you need to make a lot of saves to justify the existence of the painboy and KFF and you won't make your points back most of the time. For starters the KFF is only good on AP-2 and better weapons on Nobz because they have a standard 4+ Save. So right off the bat most weapons you aren't going to be using that KFF on. Next, against AP-2 and better weapons you get that 5++ which is nice but you need to make about 8 to justify the KFF. After that you need to make about 7 6+FNP saves to justify the existence of the Painboy. So, lets break that down, in order to make 7 saves of 5++ you are most likely going to fail 14 times, 14 AP-2 wounds (usually D3 or 2+ damage each) will kill about 14 Nobz the 6+ FNP will maybe save 4ish of those since you get 1 for every wound lost. So you have justified the existence of the KFF but the Painboy will never be able to make his points back because he only has 6 models left to save, or 12 wounds. He is again likely to save 2 of those. So you are investing a rather huge number of points into a relatively small unit in the hope of making it across the field. Someone else mentioned earlier that you could take something like 120 more boyz for the same price.
Ammo Runtz, however, benefit extensively from the KFF. The runtz take all the multi wound fire while the Nobz with big choppa take the single wound stuff. The Killsaws don't take anything until everything else is dead. Being able to allocate wounds how you like is nice, and makes the squad less vulnerable to any particular weapon type. 120 Boyz don't kill tanks, but these Nobz murder them. Of course Boyz are way more durable, but you need the right tools to deal with Tough Multi-Wound stuff in Orks.
The Painboy also effects all 130 line troops most of the time due to the way I'm playing the game with tails stretching back to my command bunker to catch all the buffs. Compose the tail off Boyz squads with 6 or so Shoota Boyz and the tail of Nobz with ammo runtz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 5 Killsaws 5 powa stabbas build is probably the way to go with the Nobz. That saves enough points to fill out the Boyz to 30 and get that Mek a big choppa.
Rismonite wrote: I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dokz Toolz may well be estimated to be 15 to 20 points
That's an interesting point of view. However, keep in mind that it's way harder to use this single models because they're buried in a mass of boyz and if you get them to strike, you need some serious movement planning - especially in footslogging lists. They also lower the amount of damage the boyz deal simply because fewer boyz get to strike and can't move as freely as they could if there was no other squad in the way. This exact thing happened yesterday with my mech ork vs gk game where he screened draigo with 2 dreadknights and i had to choose who would be able to strike - a warboss or a bunch of boyz. Only 1 could fit in the gap (i'll post a short batrep later).
Anywayz, i don't see why would you want a regular footslogging painboy over Grotsnik.
Rismonite wrote: I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Yes, but Nobz are not 55 points a piece. Alternatively you can think of a ten boy squad as a Big Mek without tools, but with 6 extra wounds and thirty extra attacks.
I don't think that painboys or big meks are useless, but they are expensive, and the situation really has to be favourable for them to add more durability to an army than just adding 10-12 more boyz. I think the best way for a painboy to make his points back is to heal Ghazz.
Hi, I have a question about the German ETC List.
I start a new Ork Army und like this list because of the many different Models. But I can’t see witch Hero goes where and what the general gameplay looks like. Can you give me your opinion please?
Orks: Supreme Command Detachment - 186 Punkte
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Orks: Spearhead Detachment - 623 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Big Mek
+ Kustom force field, Big choppa -> 29 Pkt.
- - - > 84 Punkte
*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************
Battlewagon, 3 x Big shoota
- - - > 179 Punkte
Battlewagon, Deff rolla, 'Ard Case
- - - > 180 Punkte
Battlewagon, Deff rolla, 'Ard Case
- - - > 180 Punkte
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
I like it, may be better against some armies than boyz horde, maybe less good against some. But looks fun and more diverse, and also plenty good... just different.
Asked this question a while back but don't think it was answered...it kinda determines if i go with bikerboss or Zagstrukk for my 2x30 stormboys:
"To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies.. "
If my reasoning above is actually correct, then I feel like the warboss D3 casualties from breakin 'eads trumps the fearless but 1/6 casualties from full throttle with Zag..
Hi gits, been on a break and finally getting around to working on a 2000 point list again. Playing a freebooter themed army and wanting to make it not so easy to beat its boring, thinking it can be semi competitive at best. Mid tier, whatever! Really want to keep it fully mechanized for theme (plus easy to move/play). I played a night goblin horde in fantasy and would prefer to play low model count/easy to move army. In 5th it was nice to play manz + nob bikers or nob squads, could be competitive and keep model count low + fully mechanized. I caved and in tournaments would bring MSU 5 man loota squads that would go to ground in cover whenever fired upon and I don't want to do that really. Prefer to keep them on about for mobility and protection from small arms fire. Afraid of using a trukk with its frail nature even.
The only piratey models by default are the flash gits, but the rest of my nobs manz boys etc are pirate'd up with bits and gs.
Zard will be a mini boat with sail, same for kff mek on bike.
I wanted to keep the entire list low model count / nob themed while still getting battalion CP points and have enough boys to do a few things when needed.
Wagons/trukk are pirate ships but can swap one wagon to a kill tank, or trukk to big trakk based on suggestions.
I think I can easily fit everything under one KFF but loota trukk will get left behind as rest push forward together.
Does a fully mechanized list like this stand a chance at being semi competitive? I had tried an iteration before, posted in army list forum. It had 2 wagons, a big trakk, and kill tank (no jet). Contents of each transport was a bit diff. Lost hard in one test game I played vs gun drone+commander spam, 20 melt as a turn, ouch. My list did not include the KFF bike which I see as mandatory for speed freak lists now.
Anywho the list:
Battalion detachment
Zardsnark FW biker boss
Weird boy
Waaagh banner nob
3 mega nobs PK + kustom shootas (have old metal ones built and painted as such or else would double kill saw em all)
5 nobs + 5 ammo runts (1 kill saw, 2 big choppa, 2 choppa + slugga)
9 boys BC nob shootas
9 boys PK nob slugga/choppa
11 boys bc nob slugga n choppa
Dakkkajet 4 supa shootas
Spearhead detachment
Big mek bike KFF killsaw
Trukk w/ big shoota and wrecking ball
Flash gits x5 + 5 runts
Loota x10
Battle wagon #1 with deff rolla + ard case
Battle wagon #2 with deff rolla + ard case
Battlewagon #3 with one big shoota
Da plan:
Deploy 3 wagons wide with trukk sideways behind them
Hide zardsnark and mek on bike with KFF behind wagons in front of trukk sideways also. Everything should be in KFF T1 aside from jet on a flank.
3 wagons push forward together, lootas stay put but are mobile if need to be.
Wagon #1 with hard case contain squad of 9 slugga boys with PK nob. It also contains 5 nobs + 5 ammo runts (1 saw, 2 bc)
Wagon #2 has 11 boys + bc nob, weird boy, banner nob, 3
MANz Wagon #3 contains 5 flash gits, 5 ammo runts. And squad of 9 shoota boys plus BC nob
Loota ride in trukk behind wagons
Jet flies around and shoots stuff
Bike boss and KFF move with wagons until they can charge with them
Wish I could add some kannons to the wagons for theme, or a supa kannon somewhere but just can't find the points. Not really point efficient for what they do I'm afraid
How are you guys running speed freaks? Granted I have dakka boats + wagon rush + bike chars + flyer so it's a bit dif. Trying to make what I have work opposed to buying or building new models. Have a couple trukks I can finish up also instead of a wagon, but think wagons are more durable with t8 are case etc to ferry melee units
Levski wrote: Asked this question a while back but don't think it was answered...it kinda determines if i go with bikerboss or Zagstrukk for my 2x30 stormboys:
"To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies.. "
If my reasoning above is actually correct, then I feel like the warboss D3 casualties from breakin 'eads trumps the fearless but 1/6 casualties from full throttle with Zag..
Rules as written ... No
and its been asked during the GWfaq and has not been answered, but it doesn't hurt to keep asking.
So this gives me 7 drops total for an army of 2000 points. Do you guys think that seems small enough to give me a good shot at finishing deployment first against most armies?
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.
So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.
So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.
.
This is ultimately why this method of assigning universal points values is flawed. A rokkit on a boy/vehicle is nowhere near as valuable as a rokkit on a busta or grot. Going from .33 to .5 is a 50% increase in effectiveness. Its absurd.
Dr.Duck wrote: Powerfist points drop means roughly a 20% points reduction for terminators. Hopefull we can see something similar.
If Meganobz got 20% cheaper they would then only be over priced instead of terribly over priced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there isn't much of a difference between S8 and S10 except Vs T5 and T8...that is it. It is nowhere near worth 5pts they originally charged, and now its apparently 13pts more then a PF.
Dr.Duck wrote: Powerfist points drop means roughly a 20% points reduction for terminators. Hopefull we can see something similar.
If Meganobz got 20% cheaper they would then only be over priced instead of terribly over priced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there isn't much of a difference between S8 and S10 except Vs T5 and T8...that is it. It is nowhere near worth 5pts they originally charged, and now its apparently 13pts more then a PF.
Yes the difference between S8 and S10 is not super noticeable. however when 1 is twice as expensive as another you have another issue. Also before there is not a huge reason to put a fist on a sergeant especially when that sgt only has 2 attacks. at 12 points you might be able to rationalize it. Nobs only currently getting one more attack over the sgt and the fist is double the pts. So we can expect a points drop. Id guess maybe 16 points. That would put naked mega nobs at like 45 pts. Question is how much cheaper do saws get cause they will tend to see more play on meganobs and reganobs.
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.
So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.
.
This is ultimately why this method of assigning universal points values is flawed. A rokkit on a boy/vehicle is nowhere near as valuable as a rokkit on a busta or grot. Going from .33 to .5 is a 50% increase in effectiveness. Its absurd.
I agree with you but GW has decided this edition to keep weapons and costs separate from dataslate s, so changing costs changes cost for all units that can take them. With that in kind if a SM sgt with 2 attacks pays the same points for a powerfists as a chapter master with 6 attacks within the current system the cost for other armies should be similar.
On another note, I would like to hear from people here: What is the upper bound on the range, where you feel confident in charging a rhino (with boyz and, say, with assistance from a bike) and getting the full 2-rank wraparound thus killing both transport and passengers in one go?
pismakron wrote: The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.
pismakron wrote: The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.
Yes, I think so. A powerklaw is pretty much a powerfist in this edition, except perhaps on a warboss
pismakron wrote: The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.
Yes, I think so. A powerklaw is pretty much a powerfist in this edition, except perhaps on a warboss
Doesnt matter. Most things that are T8 fists are that good against anyway. SM player should be taking Hammers over fists if the goal is to kill stuff.
Are there any competitive builds other than a Green Tide horde?
Also, how's our anti-tank looking nowadays? Expensive Tankbustas+PKs still the go-to's?
I'm not too sure why I'm asking, hah - until the codex comes out, not much has changed. Still, hoping for something other than Green Tide (I love shooty orks and vehicles :p, shame other armies output more dakka at better range/accuracy... talking more about volume of fire then efficacy).
pismakron wrote: The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.
There's a lot of stuff with T8: land raiders, hunters, stalkers, vindicators, battlewagons with 'ard case, monoliths, obelisks, wraitknights, leman russes, baneblades, imperial knights, tervigons, exocrines, tyrannofexes... most of these units are also quite popular. And T5 is very common (all DE transports are T5 for example and I tipycally use 5-7), so the difference between S8 and S10 is significant. Not huge of course but there's actually a difference.
If the SM codex is anything to go by, the Klaws will get a nice pricereduction while killsaws will remain where they are, just as chainfists are now nearly twice as expensive as powerfists. There will be a lot of cutting and reglueing of weapons it seems.
pismakron wrote: If the SM codex is anything to go by, the Klaws will get a nice pricereduction while killsaws will remain where they are, just as chainfists are now nearly twice as expensive as powerfists. There will be a lot of cutting and reglueing of weapons it seems.
Yeah, really curious to see where they go with the Ork codex - I know not to get my hopes up, but... I'm hoping they've learned their lessons (or at least, something positive), and were able to use the various feedback threads around the web/tournament results to bring the lesser powered units up.
I'd really just like to have a reason to bring all the cool units of our codex (and stand a chance with them!), aside from pure fluff reasons (which is the most important anyways, but, :p).
Orks need more dakka in their guns! Its not about expected results, its about rolling lots of dice! I'm getting discouraged when I see Space Marine tanks outputting more voluminous amounts of firepower, at BS3+, farther range, and better strength in general.
Let me roll buckets o' dice again for shooting (we got melee covered, but can always use more there too )! :dakka: :dakka: :dakka: Its not about actually hitting things, just rollings tons of dice in general.
That said, Dakka Jets are right shooty this edition - they put the hurt out on whatever they shoot at.
fe40k wrote: Are there any competitive builds other than a Green Tide horde?
Also, how's our anti-tank looking nowadays? Expensive Tankbustas+PKs still the go-to's?
I'm not too sure why I'm asking, hah - until the codex comes out, not much has changed. Still, hoping for something other than Green Tide (I love shooty orks and vehicles :p, shame other armies output more dakka at better range/accuracy... talking more about volume of fire then efficacy).
Sure you can still go for shooty orks or mechanized orks.
Need a bit more brainwork to make them work but there are options outside tide with wyrdboys and character buffs.
For antitank bazookas work fine. Can shoot more often, do 3 damage, split fire and BS doesn`t matter when you bring enough dices.
Since vehicles have much more LP you need to combine units to kill one or just weaken them to reduce BS etc.
But there is a lot stuff that can hurt tanks, basicly everything but S4 boys vs T8 vehicles will do the job.
Just don`t expect to kill 1 tank with 1 unit in 1 turn.
Unless you bring a full mob nobs with buffs, they will do the job like they did before.
If Power Klaws do drop by 8 points then I'll have 16 points spare for my 1k list, so that easily gives my Bad Moons Warboss a Kombi Rokkit (because it's fluffy and not at all efficient when I've got Killa Kans gagging for Rokkit Launchas.).
kombie rokits are 20 pts right?
and ill second the remodeling away from power klaws to BC, (Did 12 just last month) mainly that 4+/2+ with D3! :( ; is not as "consistent" as 3+/3+ flat 2. Even against the T8 a few still roll the 5+ and deal 2 each not just 1 dmg 33% of the time; also, kill-saws do this much better for 3 points more. Even with a point reduction, I don't think I would take the klaws competitively...
kombie rokits are 20 pts right?
and ill second the remodeling away from power klaws to BC, (Did 12 just last month) mainly that 4+/2+ with D3! :( ; is not as "consistent" as 3+/3+ flat 2. Even against the T8 a few still roll the 5+ and deal 2 each not just 1 dmg 33% of the time; also, kill-saws do this much better for 3 points more. Even with a point reduction, I don't think I would take the klaws competitively...
Yes 20 points.
I stay with the claw.
All the big choppas gonna be remodelled with the codex when the claw is weapon no 1 again.^^
With all the buffs they are still pretty decent.
Klaws have been fine. If they drop down to 12 points, they'll be awesome. Klaws are better on Orks than Fists are on Marines though, so I don't expect their points to drop as dramatically. The AP just matters so much, and the strength bonus is a big deal against quite a few targets. Killsaws are better than Klaws, but most units that want Klaws can't take 'em. Big Choppas are more cost effective in terms of points, but I've found the AP (and the strength in some cases) to be so important that it's well worth the additional cost.
For Shoota Squads I take Big Choppas. Gives them a bit more oomph if they find CC. With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.
Frozocrone wrote: With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.
Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?
Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?
Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.
Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.
Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?
Frozocrone wrote: With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.
Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?
Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?
Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.
Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.
Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?
I don't think it would be op, but I don't think it would solve Orks shooty deficiency. Rokkits could be free, but they would still be inefficient on a unit that advances most turns and spends the rest in close combat. A 10 boy squad with a rokkit, is still a 60 point tax on the rokkit, if the squad does not engage the enemy and start chopping. And Orks would still suffer disproportionately whenever a -1 to hit is in play.
I still think that Orks best solution to our challenges is to simply pay maelstrom and hope for a codex buff. A personal hope of mine is cheaper Klaws and that the KFF starts working like other aura buffs. Another solution would be for GW to replace the 'eadbanger power with something useful for creating moar dakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I don't think that 48 points for four rokkits on a battlewagon is all that expensive. Four rokkits on a battlewagon will do the same damage as 2.4 tankbustas (against vehicles) or 2.6 kannonz and will be more survivable than either. The real problem with rokkits on the battlewagon us that the deffrolla is such an awesome auto-include, and if your battlewagon spends 4 turns grinding away in close combat, then rokkits will be a waste no matter their price. Again, the problem with Ork rokkits is not their price, but that they can only be taken on stuff that is overcosted (buggies), needs to advance and fight (rollawaggons, Deff dreads, Boyz, gorkanauts) or tankbustas.
Big Shoota would be pretty good for six points if the mob wasn't advancing all the time. Right now it seems far better to run full tilt at the enemy most of the time, but maybe the codex will give us stratagems that make moving a little slower and shooting worth it.
I found out the other day that it isn't that hard for a warboss to get left in the dust what with all the pile-in moves and consolidating after winning a combat. The boyz can really move across the table, and can end up outside of the Warboss' buff range. The stratagem that makes them immune to battleshock really comes in handy then.
Slugga Boyz seem really good. I don't think they're broken, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did something like give choppas a cost of one point.
I still haven't had any luck with Big Gunz, but I think that it's mostly been bad rolling. I had three kannons shooting at tanks for five turns, and they didn't inflict a single wound. The grots that I brought to bubblewrap them, on the other hand, actually managed to inflict a wound on a tank.
Frozocrone wrote: With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.
Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?
Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?
Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.
Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.
Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?
I agree, and not only some units like tankbustas are more expensive now, but also their transports, which are mandatory, are now way more expensive than before. Trukks jumped from 35 point including a rokkit launcha to 82 with just a big shoota, BWs from 120 to 167, losing the free rokkit too. Orks weapons should be cheaper, we shoot with bs2 or bs3 after all and we lack super killy weapons anyway. We don't have any lascannon or plasma gun equivalent for example, s9-10 weapons never existed for orks, unless you consider the stompa, which is a shame. Some melta equivalent for tankbustas would be nice too, maybe bomb squigs should receive the reroll on their D6 damage if they're within half range.
I don't think it would be op, but I don't think it would solve Orks shooty deficiency. Rokkits could be free, but they would still be inefficient on a unit that advances most turns and spends the rest in close combat. A 10 boy squad with a rokkit, is still a 60 point tax on the rokkit, if the squad does not engage the enemy and start chopping. And Orks would still suffer disproportionately whenever a -1 to hit is in play.
I still think that Orks best solution to our challenges is to simply pay maelstrom and hope for a codex buff. A personal hope of mine is cheaper Klaws and that the KFF starts working like other aura buffs. Another solution would be for GW to replace the 'eadbanger power with something useful for creating moar dakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I don't think that 48 points for four rokkits on a battlewagon is all that expensive. Four rokkits on a battlewagon will do the same damage as 2.4 tankbustas (against vehicles) or 2.6 kannonz and will be more survivable than either. The real problem with rokkits on the battlewagon us that the deffrolla is such an awesome auto-include, and if your battlewagon spends 4 turns grinding away in close combat, then rokkits will be a waste no matter their price. Again, the problem with Ork rokkits is not their price, but that they can only be taken on stuff that is overcosted (buggies), needs to advance and fight (rollawaggons, Deff dreads, Boyz, gorkanauts) or tankbustas.
48pts for 4 Rokkitz is horribly priced. 2 Tankbustas by themselves are significantly superior to 4 Rokkitz on a Wagon because they get rerolls to hit and cost a lot less then the 4 rokkitz, especially on a wagon. In a game where 2,000pts is the new common game type, 48pts is basically 2.4% of your entire army list, that doesn't sound like a lot but its compounded across the board with sub-optimal shooting. I think Rokkitz should go back to 5pts each and 10pts for duel rokkitz, I also think big shootas should be 2-3pts not 6. Think of it this way, a Deff Kopta costs 55pts without weapons(already over priced by about 10-15pts. You add on massively over priced Rokkitz and poof you have an unusable unit. IF and this is a big IF, GW correctly priced Rokkitz and gave the Kopta a small points reduction of 5pts you would be looking at a Deff Kopta with 2 Rokkit shots costing 60pts instead of the current cost of 83.
Now I definitely partially agree with your premise that all the platforms that can take rokkitz are horribly over priced, but Rokkitz are a joke for how over priced they are now. Rokkitz used to be free for anything that could take a big shoota, the Trukk already factored in the cost of the big shoota into its 30pts price tag, and you could take a Rokkit for free, The Deff Koptas were the same, with TL Big shootas already priced and TL Rokkitz being free, and keep in mind that Koptas back in 7th weren't taken because they were so terrible except as fast objective holders.
I agree, and not only some units like tankbustas are more expensive now, but also their transports, which are mandatory, are now way more expensive than before. Trukks jumped from 35 point including a rokkit launcha to 82 with just a big shoota, BWs from 120 to 167, losing the free rokkit too. Orks weapons should be cheaper, we shoot with bs2 or bs3 after all and we lack super killy weapons anyway. We don't have any lascannon or plasma gun equivalent for example, s9-10 weapons never existed for orks, unless you consider the stompa, which is a shame. Some melta equivalent for tankbustas would be nice too, maybe bomb squigs should receive the reroll on their D6 damage if they're within half range.
Exactly, we are paying ridiculous prices for weapons that are worse then imperium equivalents. The Rokkit is very similar to the Missile launcher because a Krak missile has the same profile as a Rokkit except it has double the range and D6 damage. The Missile Launcher costs twice as much but the difference is that it has 2 fire modes, better damage output, twice the range and gets taken on a infantry model that is significantly more durable....OHH and it hits 2/3rds of the time compared to our 1/3rd of the time, and since we are advancing constantly to get in range it actually hits 1/6th of the time.
5pts is a more realistic price for the Rokkit, GW just forgot how to price orkz with this reboot and we are suffering for it.
DOOM AND GLOOM TIME: Yeah, even with our new codex I doubt GW will realize how tremendous their feth up was and will give us a moderate price cut on some units and will probably nerf one of our moderately useful units into the ground to compensate for giving us somewhat useful shooting. But thats just me speaking from years and years of experience of GW dropping codex's and supplements on orkz trying to un-nerf their damage.
I agree. In the past rokkits were 10 points and were already considered a waste of points on most platforms before the current codex dropped them to 5, how did they think they were suddenly worth 12 points?
I honestly prefer 3 damage over d6 though. Due to the nature of our shooting, you will often get only a few rokkits to actually do damage, I prefer three rokkit doing 9 damage (killing most vehicles and characters) over doing 3d6 damage which has a decent chance of leaving your target alive.
Even for single targets, a rokkit is guaranteed to kill centurion, while a missle launcher still has a 1/3 chance to leave it alive.
Considering how much trouble we need to go through to get even a single rokkit to wound, I really prefer a little reliability for the damage value.
The proper solution is probably dropping rokkits by 7 points and putting those points onto the tankbusta basic models.
Don't forget that the huge price of rokkits also makes buggies and koptas almost useless. We rely on koptas only for their bomb, no one is going to equip them with rokkits anymore, which is a shame considering how much a single kopta costs.
About the rokkits' damage I don't know, the average of a D6 is 3.5 which is higher than the flat 3 rokkits have, especially if you have multiple shots.
I would have preferred an AP-3 rather than a D6 damage though, and considering our crappy BS and the short range ork rokkits have I think we deserved a better AP than imperial missiles.
Blackie wrote: Don't forget that the huge price of rokkits also makes buggies and koptas almost useless. We rely on koptas only for their bomb, no one is going to equip them with rokkits anymore, which is a shame considering how much a single kopta costs.
About the rokkits' damage I don't know, the average of a D6 is 3.5 which is higher than the flat 3 rokkits have, especially if you have multiple shots.
I would have preferred an AP-3 rather than a D6 damage though, and considering our crappy BS and the short range ork rokkits have I think we deserved a better AP than imperial missiles.
Exactly. How many of our units last edition relied upon Rokkitz to be remotely useful? and when I say remotely useful I mean they might get seen one out of 10 games but never in a competitive environment. Koptas, Buggies, Kanz. By raising the prices of all these units and then raising the cost of rokkit 140% you have effectively killed these units to the point where they are ignored.
I don't think Rokkits on anything not tank Bustas is really worth the points.
For my self I prefer shoota boys with just shootas. I also think KMB's are worth the risk for the points so I've put 3 on Deff Koptas, all are solo in my army and 6 on my Old Killa Kans.
(60 point Kans.)
My new Kans have a mix of new weapons. Frankly the more likely it is to hit the more I like the risk but solo Deff Koptas can at least put the KMB closer to what I want to shoot in support of a larger Goal. I'm not seeing enough deviation with Rokkits and KMB's to "justify" spending more points.
Probably Big Shootas and Grot Zookas will be better on Kans. But I have those so no big deal.
Marines in the open are still Marines in the open where basic Shootas and even Big Shootas are concerned. Same Same.
Shoota Boys are just cheaper now.
I'm not excited about power Klaws much now, Any thing that can take a lot of them might think about it but a Single Klaw on a Nob just seems less of a good idea to me. I'm actually thinking a lot of my Boss Nobs will just use choppas for the extra attacks and save me a few points.
I really wish there was an option to buy More Big Shootas in Boys mobs, or just Mobs of Big Shootas. Just for the ST5 36" range. Oh well, I'll be looking at my War trakks next as a Big Shoota go too and see how that goes.
33% chance: 1-2 damage (33-66% minus normal damage)
17% chance: 3 damage
50% chance: 4-6 damage (33-100% plus damage)
I'll take a 67% chance for same, or up double, damage any day.
D6s shred vehicles; 3 damage rokkits don't even cleanly kill most vehicles - there's a lot of ~10 wound vehicles, which requires 4 rokkits, minimum (versus 2 missile minimum).
If anything, missiles should be 3 flat, and rokkits should be d6 - at this point, what's a little more randomness for our shooting anyways.
Also, rip buggies.
It,doesn't matter though, orks are no longer any kind of army other than "horde+melee"; everything else got gutted beyond reason. See: shooting, vehicles.
Im just tired that other armies get far more volume of shots (regardless of expected damage) than orks, at better accuracy, range, and strength. See: Repulsor tank - 20 s5 ap-1, 5d6+3 s4 ap? = for 305 points. Oh. And fly too, so it can disengage and keep dakka.
I really loved the idea of mechanized orks' but they don't have any battle tanks, or any good vehicles really. Battle wagon is ok for a 200 point land raider, but it has no guns; so... trucks are pointless, too expensive and too easy to kill (especially compared to rhinos).
Automatically Appended Next Post: My favorite thing about bomb squids is that they're just Missile Launchers that hit on a 2+ (RR'd though, to be fair); everyone goes crazy for them, yet don't seem to realize that SM devestators get these by default (3+ coupled with +1 from cherum).
Add in a captain to reroll 1's, or gulliman to reroll everything... and ever SMdev is a bomb squig, at better range and can target air units.
You just might be onto something!
:dakka: :dakka: :dakka: 