Which is funny because I think it's a pretty sad box. Painboys are woefully mediochre. Barely worth it but to cheap to not include. The dread is nice but 10 boys is lol compared to the hordes you need. If a box of nobs was in there as well or swap painboy out for mega nobz then I think it would be alright.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Which is funny because I think it's a pretty sad box. Painboys are woefully mediochre. Barely worth it but to cheap to not include. The dread is nice but 10 boys is lol compared to the hordes you need. If a box of nobs was in there as well or swap painboy out for mega nobz then I think it would be alright.
I wouldn't take what's out of stock as a start collecting as what's popular. Scion start collecting I can tell you for a fact is ordered like crazy right now and I wouldn't doubt is number 1 for sales.
Beatonator wrote: I know the discussion has been that Flash Gitz aren't competitive. However I'm finally assembling some and haven't got the Xenos Index yet. Do they have any specific wargear options that are different from our last codex?
I need to know how to model them, or go off the previous codex entry for equipping them! Cheers guys! Hope to join in the 8th Edition Party when I next get paid!
Literally the only choice is whether to give the kaptin a choppa or slugga and the answer is choppa.
Played three games with my orks this weekend, WAAAAGH. Tons of fun.
1st off, question: What do you think is best ork flyer? at least in fluffy games I would love to buy an ork flyer or two.
Entering arguments: I ran a lot of boyz in all 3 lists. Mostly slugga / choppa except I began bringing one unit of shootas to "da jump" into the back field. Other units, meganobz, Ghazghkul, weirdboyz, Grotsnik, kommandos, mek gunz, lootas.
Observations: (disclaima: I love fluffy games and having fun is 1000x more important that winning, but the following statements apply to how good I think stuff is for the points)
- If there are no juicy targets to harass with a kommando drop, save them for dropping on objectives later is a good option.
- Mek gunz with KMK, not good. Not dependable and too expensive. The mek repairs them fine, but 5xKMK plus mek is like 270 pts... The lootas and just Krumpin with Klaws outperforms that for the pts IMO - Ghaz is fun but probably not worth 100+ pts more than Warboss.
- Put Warboss on bike. Tougher, but more importantly he won't get left behind when his friends charge and then susceptible to getting targeted. Also can reach farther to tie up an extra unit farther away and force more fall backs. Mainly just the mobility / positioning is worth the 30 pts. (plug here for this wily gitz blog, https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/)
- Meganobz, good with "da jump", not auto-include but good.
- Grotsnik, great combo to put Weirdboyz brain back in his 'ead after he overclocks it. Then also good chance he'll fix up Ghaz or a Warboss later too. Plus he hits like a trukk himself and basically has self WAAAAGH ability if positioned correctly.
- Weirdboyz, obviously great. I like to jump the 30xshoota squad, load up on shots all in side 18" range, if I miss the charge at least I got to shoot, plus if they charge me I have tons of overwatch. Then "jump" some MANZ next turn after Dok patches him up if needed. Smite to taste.
- Lootas, great, still great, outperform KMKs and I speculate all the other Big/Mek Gunz too. 2x10 is about the sweet spot I think. Protip: freaking awesome against deathwing knights... the -1AP is all you need to force their 3++ anyway and the 2 dmg is perfect... I was able to kill ~3 / turn on average which is great for a 170 pt unit. Really comes down to 170pts for 10 Lootas is better than ~270pts for 5xKMK mek gunz.
- Last game was against 1x Storm Raven, 3x Storm Talon, 10 Terminators, 10 Sanguinors... that is kind of a problem. Just played the mission, probably would win 3 out of 10 games if we ran that same game a bunch because it's all about having enough and positioning on objectives. That said, I had a lot of trouble and in a list with more flyers with lots of dakka I would probably just get tabled.
Anyway, all my opinion, what have you cunnin bosses been plannin?
Gotta agree, lootaz are great. Mowed down a unit of (DW) knights in one turn, and with dam2 it's like instakilling. Plus (due to bad rolls and the clunky powerfists) those same lootaz tied up a different termy unit for 2 game turns. And that was off lucky morale rolls.
Quick question, what's the minimum unit size of Nobz? In their respective entry in the Orks part of Xenos 2 it says they have a Boss Nob and four Nobz, but in the point's value part it says 3-10?
So question is anyone knows?
I'm going to order a meka dread after the FWFAQ this weekend however they don't have a rattler cannon arm available and I can't find one anywhere? Did they ever make this arm? I presume I can just use the killcannon arm!
Also if the mega dread doesn't get rules this weekend I'll likely just use that model as a meka dread as it looks better imho and almost exactly the same model and he arms are interchangeable. I think a meka dread will be used in a lot of my infantry lists and as part of any dread mob I use.
Can't wait for the FWFAQ to see if buzzgrob is shelved or auto include like zhardsnark. If he gets his kff for free he becomes a More durable big Mek, if he can't take it or it costs 20pts it's just overpriced. Kinda the same with the meka dread but less of an issue.
- Mek gunz with KMK, not good. Not dependable and too expensive. The mek repairs them fine, but 5xKMK plus mek is like 270 pts... The lootas and just Krumpin with Klaws outperforms that for the pts IMO
I only own one, so I can't comment on their effectiveness in larger numbers, but literally one KMK Mek Gun seemed to do all right. It has an easy time making its points back if you chose the right target (in one game that was taking down 2 Meganob models and finishing off a damaged trukk, so out of the whole battle not that much but the Gun itself made back it's points). In one game though it was honestly kind of valuable as bate for enemy deep strikers as my opponent sent out a squad of Raptors and.... Hellbrutes I think? after it which allowed my Warboss and Nob hitsquad to take them out quite handily. And that lone Mek Gun was definitely worth far less than those other units.
gungo wrote: So question is anyone knows?
I'm going to order a meka dread after the FWFAQ this weekend however they don't have a rattler cannon arm available and I can't find one anywhere? Did they ever make this arm? I presume I can just use the killcannon arm!
Also if the mega dread doesn't get rules this weekend I'll likely just use that model as a meka dread as it looks better imho and almost exactly the same model and he arms are interchangeable. I think a meka dread will be used in a lot of my infantry lists and as part of any dread mob I use.
Can't wait for the FWFAQ to see if buzzgrob is shelved or auto include like zhardsnark. If he gets his kff for free he becomes a More durable big Mek, if he can't take it or it costs 20pts it's just overpriced. Kinda the same with the meka dread but less of an issue.
I checked again (as someone said it was called rack of rokkits), but the meka-dred also doesn't have a cost for the rokkit-bomms (the lobba like weapon it has). It doesn't have it as a wargear option and its not costed in the back. Bit annoying, but hopefully the bloody FAQ clears that up! Have no idea how such silly errors slip through, especially considering I saw it on my first pass through the FW index
Thanks for all the advice RE: how to model my Flash Gitz!
Finished trimming them off the sprue and cleaning them up last night! Spotted 3 different Arms for the Kaptin and exactly as suggested, Choppa/Slugga being 2 of them. I'll definitely be picking the Choppa, it's a bit of a shame though as I like the cigar arm!
How do you guys get more Ammo runts btw? None in the box and only 1 in the Nobz kit. I guess I can just use some of my plastic Grots when I get round to painting up more of them! Looked at Fox Box and they're sold out :(
I still prefer KMKs over lootas, which are also a decent unit. But they're t-shirt save boyz that cannot have a better save than a 5+. KMKs are more durable and they can cause more damage if they target 2+ and 3+ armors.
I run 2 units of 2 KMKs, not a single big unit because their range is meh, and by splitting them into two units I can cover more ground.
They're far from being excellent but they provide a decent firepower for orks standards and they serve the role of objective campers better than lootas or the useless gretchin.
Lootas aren't that cheap either, 2 KMKs cost as much as 7 lootas while a single volley of mediocre S4 or S5 shots can wipe out the entire unit of lootas. I'd play them only in 2 or 3 units of 5, like in 7th edition.
Beatonator wrote: Thanks for all the advice RE: how to model my Flash Gitz!
Finished trimming them off the sprue and cleaning them up last night! Spotted 3 different Arms for the Kaptin and exactly as suggested, Choppa/Slugga being 2 of them. I'll definitely be picking the Choppa, it's a bit of a shame though as I like the cigar arm!
How do you guys get more Ammo runts btw? None in the box and only 1 in the Nobz kit. I guess I can just use some of my plastic Grots when I get round to painting up more of them! Looked at Fox Box and they're sold out :(
Yep I use the ammo runt from the Nobz box, the Meganobz box and use Grots for the rest
Blackie wrote: I still prefer KMKs over lootas, which are also a decent unit. But they're t-shirt save boyz that cannot have a better save than a 5+. KMKs are more durable and they can cause more damage if they target 2+ and 3+ armors.
I run 2 units of 2 KMKs, not a single big unit because their range is meh, and by splitting them into two units I can cover more ground.
They're far from being excellent but they provide a decent firepower for orks standards and they serve the role of objective campers better than lootas or the useless gretchin.
Lootas aren't that cheap either, 2 KMKs cost as much as 7 lootas while a single volley of mediocre S4 or S5 shots can wipe out the entire unit of lootas. I'd play them only in 2 or 3 units of 5, like in 7th edition.
Each Gun is a separate unit anyway, after deployment, as is each set of Grot Gunners. It's worded a bit peculiarly but I believe that's the way of it.
This is an easy one. You can choose to reroll one or both. If you look in the BRB, under the side panel that is titled re-rolls, it says that some abilities allow you to re roll a dice roll. And that you can choose to reroll all or some of those dice.
Each Gun is a separate unit anyway, after deployment, as is each set of Grot Gunners. It's worded a bit peculiarly but I believe that's the way of it.
But if I take two KMKs as a single heavy support choice I must deploy them in coherency, am I right? I can't deploy the second KMK 30'' away from the first one if they belong to the same unit.
Each Gun is a separate unit anyway, after deployment, as is each set of Grot Gunners. It's worded a bit peculiarly but I believe that's the way of it.
But if I take two KMKs as a single heavy support choice I must deploy them in coherency, am I right? I can't deploy the second KMK 30'' away from the first one if they belong to the same unit.
Yes indeed. I follow what you were saying before now, fill up two slots with them so you can deploy in two separate locations.
Might as well since for some godforsaken reason they count as separate units and e tea victory points. Might as well give flexibility in deployment. Also possible extra command points.
gungo wrote: So question is anyone knows?
I'm going to order a meka dread after the FWFAQ this weekend however they don't have a rattler cannon arm available and I can't find one anywhere? Did they ever make this arm? I presume I can just use the killcannon arm!
Also if the mega dread doesn't get rules this weekend I'll likely just use that model as a meka dread as it looks better imho and almost exactly the same model and he arms are interchangeable. I think a meka dread will be used in a lot of my infantry lists and as part of any dread mob I use.
Can't wait for the FWFAQ to see if buzzgrob is shelved or auto include like zhardsnark. If he gets his kff for free he becomes a More durable big Mek, if he can't take it or it costs 20pts it's just overpriced. Kinda the same with the meka dread but less of an issue.
I checked again (as someone said it was called rack of rokkits), but the meka-dred also doesn't have a cost for the rokkit-bomms (the lobba like weapon it has). It doesn't have it as a wargear option and its not costed in the back. Bit annoying, but hopefully the bloody FAQ clears that up! Have no idea how such silly errors slip through, especially considering I saw it on my first pass through the FW index
That was me it's there under Ork wargear rokkit bomm racks 13points right under reinforced ram. And yes the mekadread datasheet doesn't tell you how to take it! Is it standard wargear? Is it optional? Who knows!
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Might as well since for some godforsaken reason they count as separate units and e tea victory points. Might as well give flexibility in deployment. Also possible extra command points.
Well it does impact your number of drops in deployment, so if you are trying to get first turn it can be a good idea to take them as a single unit.
Each Gun is a separate unit anyway, after deployment, as is each set of Grot Gunners. It's worded a bit peculiarly but I believe that's the way of it.
But if I take two KMKs as a single heavy support choice I must deploy them in coherency, am I right? I can't deploy the second KMK 30'' away from the first one if they belong to the same unit.
Nope they have to deploy in coherency but after that it doesn't matter. Also does that mean that wounds don't carry over?
gungo wrote: So question is anyone knows?
I'm going to order a meka dread after the FWFAQ this weekend however they don't have a rattler cannon arm available and I can't find one anywhere? Did they ever make this arm? I presume I can just use the killcannon arm!
Also if the mega dread doesn't get rules this weekend I'll likely just use that model as a meka dread as it looks better imho and almost exactly the same model and he arms are interchangeable. I think a meka dread will be used in a lot of my infantry lists and as part of any dread mob I use.
Can't wait for the FWFAQ to see if buzzgrob is shelved or auto include like zhardsnark. If he gets his kff for free he becomes a More durable big Mek, if he can't take it or it costs 20pts it's just overpriced. Kinda the same with the meka dread but less of an issue.
I checked again (as someone said it was called rack of rokkits), but the meka-dred also doesn't have a cost for the rokkit-bomms (the lobba like weapon it has). It doesn't have it as a wargear option and its not costed in the back. Bit annoying, but hopefully the bloody FAQ clears that up! Have no idea how such silly errors slip through, especially considering I saw it on my first pass through the FW index
That was me it's there under Ork wargear rokkit bomm racks 13points right under reinforced ram. And yes the mekadread datasheet doesn't tell you how to take it! Is it standard wargear? Is it optional? Who knows!
I SHALL CHECK AGAIN GUNGO! I must be blind either that or your just totally screwing with my head Gungo
Previously someone linked a good third party product for Zzap gunz. But I cant for the life of me remember the company (and ive gone back through and cant find the link). They were part of a kit you could buy that had track bottom halves and bases etc..
Just not my day for finding things it seems!
Each Gun is a separate unit anyway, after deployment, as is each set of Grot Gunners. It's worded a bit peculiarly but I believe that's the way of it.
But if I take two KMKs as a single heavy support choice I must deploy them in coherency, am I right? I can't deploy the second KMK 30'' away from the first one if they belong to the same unit.
Nope they have to deploy in coherency but after that it doesn't matter. Also does that mean that wounds don't carry over?
Nope, no wound carrying over, on the grots or the gunz. So each crew and gun is its own total wound pool
Previously someone linked a good third party product for Zzap gunz. But I cant for the life of me remember the company (and ive gone back through and cant find the link). They were part of a kit you could buy that had track bottom halves and bases etc..
Just not my day for finding things it seems!
gungo wrote: So question is anyone knows?
I'm going to order a meka dread after the FWFAQ this weekend however they don't have a rattler cannon arm available and I can't find one anywhere? Did they ever make this arm? I presume I can just use the killcannon arm!
Also if the mega dread doesn't get rules this weekend I'll likely just use that model as a meka dread as it looks better imho and almost exactly the same model and he arms are interchangeable. I think a meka dread will be used in a lot of my infantry lists and as part of any dread mob I use.
Can't wait for the FWFAQ to see if buzzgrob is shelved or auto include like zhardsnark. If he gets his kff for free he becomes a More durable big Mek, if he can't take it or it costs 20pts it's just overpriced. Kinda the same with the meka dread but less of an issue.
I checked again (as someone said it was called rack of rokkits), but the meka-dred also doesn't have a cost for the rokkit-bomms (the lobba like weapon it has). It doesn't have it as a wargear option and its not costed in the back. Bit annoying, but hopefully the bloody FAQ clears that up! Have no idea how such silly errors slip through, especially considering I saw it on my first pass through the FW index
That was me it's there under Ork wargear rokkit bomm racks 13points right under reinforced ram. And yes the mekadread datasheet doesn't tell you how to take it! Is it standard wargear? Is it optional? Who knows!
I SHALL CHECK AGAIN GUNGO! I must be blind either that or your just totally screwing with my head Gungo :
Slugga Boyz seem like the be all and end all but I'm kind of thinking of building one of my Boyz mobs as a 30 Shoota squad and teleporting it with a Weirdboy.
Fluffy ish too, since I'm doing my Orks as Bad Moons and Bad Moons need all the dakka.
I do, but only because I have just 60 slugga & choppa boyz and I need a third mob, unless I play with 3 battlewagons. What I experienced is that second S4 shot granted by the shoota is not going to do anything while the +1 attack granted by the choppa is huge, especially now that boyz hit on 3s in close combat, even on 2s with the waaagh banner nearby.
S4 attack are never enough, a mob of 30 boyz with buffs (like warpath or ghaz) is still not going to cause overkill against a lot of armored units while they can suffer a lot of casualties thanks to their crappy t-shirt save. Always take slugga & choppas if you have the models, orks are designed to assault.
30 shoota boyz means 60 S4 shots if they are in range and just 20 hits on average rolls. Which are 10 wounds against T4 models. 3 dead marines, only 1-2 if they are in cover. Against T3 they can do something but our best anti infantries are choppas anyway.
Although shootas are nice to jump turn one, shoot away at screen/chaff unit, (and even try to assault)while your krumpy stuff gets into position to charge turn two/three.
Played a double baneblade, double Russ punisher, 100 conscript army last week and got boned in the bum bum because I couldn't adequately get the chaff out of the way.
Shootas come into their own against harlequin and nids. Or especially against the dreaded harlenids.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ork kommandos and teleporting infantry often finds themselves badly needing a nine or better when rolling for charge distance.
Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.
Assuming that the initial roll is not nine or better, the best option is to look at the higher of the two dice: If the highest result is a three or worse, both dice should be rerolled. But if the higher die result is four or better only the smaller die should be rerolled. Using this approach the ork player has a neat 57% chance of making the nine inch charge.
I think those odds are pretty decent. We all now how brutal a 30-boy squad that da-jumps in with warpath can be, but maybe kommandos and snikrot are also reasonable options for bolstering those first turn charges. I think I need to make some kommando conversions.
I have been re-rolling even the fours. I thought of the highest is a four, and I keep it.. I only have a 1/3 chance of making he charge (needing a 5+). Maybe I'll keep my fours from now on..
pismakron wrote: Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.
After my initial excitement about re-rolling one die, I'm thinking Reece is correct when he says roll 2.
The general re-rolling rule says "one or both", but I'm thinking that is not meant to imply that the player has a choice...only that it means sometimes you re-roll 1 and sometimes you re-roll 2. E're We Go says you can re roll the charge roll, not dice. Re-rolling a roll means you do the whole thing over. There is no choice here.
"Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re roll a dice more then onc., and re rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
I think it's very clear that when we re roll a charge roll, we can re roll some or all. One or two. I play at a GW full of rules lawyers and they agree with me on this.
I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week
pismakron wrote: Shootas come into their own against harlequin and nids. Or especially against the dreaded harlenids.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ork kommandos and teleporting infantry often finds themselves badly needing a nine or better when rolling for charge distance.
Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.
Assuming that the initial roll is not nine or better, the best option is to look at the higher of the two dice: If the highest result is a three or worse, both dice should be rerolled. But if the higher die result is four or better only the smaller die should be rerolled. Using this approach the ork player has a neat 57% chance of making the nine inch charge.
I think those odds are pretty decent. We all now how brutal a 30-boy squad that da-jumps in with warpath can be, but maybe kommandos and snikrot are also reasonable options for bolstering those first turn charges. I think I need to make some kommando conversions.
I can't find it anymore, but I did a spreadsheet on this when our last brought the 'ere we go rule. You get the best results when re-rolling anything but :four: :five: , if you re-roll fours you get lower average results than when keeping them.
Maybe I should redo it specifically targeting results of 9" or higher. Or someone else with more free time on their hand
Without doing the exact math, I'd say the chance of rolling 5+ = 33% (after keeping a 4) is higher than rolling a 9+ on 2d6 = 28% though.
Hey Boyz, I'm considering getting aquainted with the Orky way of life. I recently listened to The Beast Arises audiobook and I've been captivated by the green tide. I plan to read this thread but could you guys give me the gist of how a horde army would look and perform? I'm thinking pure infantry, big units of normal boys, commandos, lootas, flash gitz, the jetpack guys, cheap buffing characters and maybe one or two of the big cannons.
Slaktur wrote: I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week
I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.
Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gwdev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.
Thanks Gungo for the reply, if they play it that way on warhammer.tv it's good enough for me. KFF is back on the meny.
For the reroll i just have to ask my opponent what they think until next faq. Keeping my fingers crossed for rerolling one or both dice for maximum WAAAGH!!
gungo wrote: It's on the next FAQ clarification list but when That is coming who knows. FW will be this weekend.
The Forgeworld FAQs should be interesting. Here's to hoping they just reprint the books, they're pretty crap.
As long as they send me a new copy... for free.. Im all in. I must say the book didn't seem to have been checked very well. finding mistakes on the first pass.
As for the dice math its relatively simple. The average of a D6 is 3.5, thus any dice that is higher than 3.5 (so 4,5,6) is statistically increasing your odds of getting a 9" charge. Thus re-rolling a 4,5,6 is always going to be statistically more likely to fail you a charge
with 1 dice as a 4; 33% chance of rolling the required re-roll.
with 1 dice as a 5; 50% chance of rolling the required re-roll.
with 1 dice as a 6; 66% chance of rolling the required re-roll
And in the first place you have 28% chance of getting the 9" straight up, and a 75% chance of rolling atleast 1 dice as a 4/5/6.
I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.
Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.
How is the best way to play them?
Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.
1424
Thoughts? Or not worth building a list around maximising CP?
Hi, a decent list using the brigade detachment is possible, but you need a lot of cheap and effective units. Weirdboyz, kommandos and mek gunz basically. Grots are uselss, don't field more than a single unit of 10, save points for the mobs of boyz. Deffkoptas with shootas are better than skorcha buggies.
You can go with something like that:
warboss, pk, bike
2x weirdboy
6x 30 boyz, nob, big choppa
3x KMK
3x Deffkopta
3x 5 kommandos, 2 burnas, nob
painboy
grotsnik
Maybe a nob with the banner cutting a unit of kommandos and taking cheaper mek gunz instead of KMKs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nithaniel wrote: I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.
Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.
How is the best way to play them?
Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I have been re-rolling even the fours. I thought of the highest is a four, and I keep it.. I only have a 1/3 chance of making he charge (needing a 5+). Maybe I'll keep my fours from now on..
If you keep a four and reroll the other die, then you have a 33% chance of making nine. But if you reroll both dice then you have 28% chance.
pismakron wrote: Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.
After my initial excitement about re-rolling one die, I'm thinking Reece is correct when he says roll 2.
The general re-rolling rule says "one or both", but I'm thinking that is not meant to imply that the player has a choice...only that it means sometimes you re-roll 1 and sometimes you re-roll 2. E're We Go says you can re roll the charge roll, not dice. Re-rolling a roll means you do the whole thing over. There is no choice here.
Of course, GW forgot to FAQ it.
Who is Reece?
Well, I am going with the interpretation that either zero, one or two dice can be rerolled. The Ere We Go rules says that you can reroll the charge roll, and the reroll rule says "Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again."
A charge roll is a dice roll, and you get to reroll the dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again.
Slaktur wrote: I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week
I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.
Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gwdev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.
1424
Thoughts? Or not worth building a list around maximising CP?
Hi, a decent list using the brigade detachment is possible, but you need a lot of cheap and effective units. Weirdboyz, kommandos and mek gunz basically. Grots are uselss, don't field more than a single unit of 10, save points for the mobs of boyz. Deffkoptas with shootas are better than skorcha buggies.
You can go with something like that:
warboss, pk, bike
2x weirdboy
6x 30 boyz, nob, big choppa
3x KMK
3x Deffkopta
3x 5 kommandos, 2 burnas, nob
painboy
grotsnik
Maybe a nob with the banner cutting a unit of kommandos and taking cheaper mek gunz instead of KMKs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nithaniel wrote: I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.
Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.
How is the best way to play them?
Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
I largely agree on not spamming Grots to max CP as CP are not really worth gimping your list to aquire. More Boyz would be the way to go in a Brigade list, but even then I would need to consider if another set of detachments would be an overall superior list.
As for Lootas, I would think about having them embarked to give them more durability. 10 Lootas in a Trukk have essentially 20 wounds for 252 points. 10 of which are T6 with a 4+ save. Even in cover lootas are really only going to have a 5+ save, and will still be T4. It also gives you mobility if needed depending on Firing lanes. For the same points (255) you could instead take 15 lootas. So you would have a 50% increase in damage but a reduction in durability and mobility. 5 fewer wounds (though this is mitigated somewhat by multiple damage weapons that hit the trukk) and 7" less movement, so if you end up out of position it is harder to quickly re-deploy.
Slaktur wrote: I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week
I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.
Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gwdev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.
GUNGO, how did they play it on warhammer tv????
They played it with the wagon partial under is still covered. But the warhammertv is usually the community team or other gw staff but not rules team and even they have made mistakes in the past so it's not perfect justification. I can't look up twitchtv at work but you can look at the Ork games by subscribing to warhammertv channel. I forget which date was the game but it was an earlier game and it didn't have the battlewagon wholly within.
Hint of advice if you have Amazon prime you get 1 free subscription to a twitch channel a month.
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.
But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.
But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there
Just remember that you should be able to push most deepstrikers out of range of targets if you choose to.
Minimum squads of lootas and burnas are the wrong way to go. With maximum squads, it becomes worth it to use a CP to increase their output. Since number of shots is a single roll, using a CP to reroll 1s for number of shots increases the output of the whole squad by 1/6 and heavily weighting the number of shots away from 1. A general rule of thumb is that you need 2 CP in your list dedicated to each squad of burnas and lootas you include.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe 1 CP for burnas. They aren't likely to shoot more than 3 times in a game. Lootas shooting 6 times a game is also a bit optimistic.
Kind of close, if it ended on turn 5, I would have a chance of having enough bodies left to cap more objectives. Obviously some missions are better than others.
However if opponent optimized more and brought more flyers, no chance. I read thru the ideas on here and i don't see how tank bustas or anything else can work, also it risks making your list worse against all the regular opponents.
I think a full squad or 2 of grots would really help with objectives and your survivability. 2 would be about 240pts and basically fearless with da runtherd.
You can't kill the flyas, that's impossible. Instead you must realize da truth. There is no flyas, that can kill da green tide.
LiMunPai wrote: Minimum squads of lootas and burnas are the wrong way to go. With maximum squads, it becomes worth it to use a CP to increase their output. Since number of shots is a single roll, using a CP to reroll 1s for number of shots increases the output of the whole squad by 1/6 and heavily weighting the number of shots away from 1. A general rule of thumb is that you need 2 CP in your list dedicated to each squad of burnas and lootas you include.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe 1 CP for burnas. They aren't likely to shoot more than 3 times in a game. Lootas shooting 6 times a game is also a bit optimistic.
This makes total sense, thanks! I'm still in 7th thinking but of course you can still split fire the squad should you need to so bigger squads it is!
Obviosuly you'd have to specify targets for the squad prior to rolling/re-rolling number of shots though. Its rough on orks because those CP are so valuable for that time your 30 strong squad takes huge casualties.
This makes total sense, thanks! I'm still in 7th thinking but of course you can still split fire the squad should you need to so bigger squads it is!
Obviosuly you'd have to specify targets for the squad prior to rolling/re-rolling number of shots though. Its rough on orks because those CP are so valuable for that time your 30 strong squad takes huge casualties.
You'll normally have leadership 30 on any Boyz that haven't been sent off with Da Jump! if you keep your Boyz blobbed up, take at least 90 Boyz, and have some durability upgrades like KFF and Painboy. I agree that you should have 2CP saved for each squad you plan to send out with Da Jump!, though.
dont feel like reading through 42pgs to see if this has been brought up.
Forgeworld orks. Some of the "variants" were merged into one model (kill tank vs kill bursta or blasta) but some seem to be missing entirely.
Megadread comes to mind. Theres rules for meka but no mega, yet the website references the Xenos index for the rules for a Mega dread.
Has anyone found the rules for a mega dread?
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.
But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there
Ok, but with a trukk they become way too expensive just for an extra protection, with the same amount of points you can add 5 other lootas. A 10-15 man unit of lootas is a high priority target, 2-4 units of 5 aren't. The key with lootas is to keep them MSU so you opponent may ignore them or he can target them with multiple units since they can be spammed in the entire ork deployment zone. Lootas are supposed to fire 2-3 turns, the time your close combat units need to assault.
Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.
My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.
But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there
Ok, but with a trukk they become way too expensive just for an extra protection, with the same amount of points you can add 5 other lootas. A 10-15 man unit of lootas is a high priority target, 2-4 units of 5 aren't. The key with lootas is to keep them MSU so you opponent may ignore them or he can target them with multiple units since they can be spammed in the entire ork deployment zone. Lootas are supposed to fire 2-3 turns, the time your close combat units need to assault.
MSU is not optimal for lootas. Getting atleast 2-3 shots with a full squad is the ticket. Trukk caps them at 12 and also is expensive as a "shield" I usually just place them as high up a piece of terrain as I can way in the back. 48" range is pretty damn long. Or just deploy them in the biggest pain in the ass piece of terrain to discourage charges. >_<
LiMunPai wrote: Minimum squads of lootas and burnas are the wrong way to go. With maximum squads, it becomes worth it to use a CP to increase their output. Since number of shots is a single roll, using a CP to reroll 1s for number of shots increases the output of the whole squad by 1/6 and heavily weighting the number of shots away from 1. A general rule of thumb is that you need 2 CP in your list dedicated to each squad of burnas and lootas you include.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe 1 CP for burnas. They aren't likely to shoot more than 3 times in a game. Lootas shooting 6 times a game is also a bit optimistic.
This makes total sense, thanks! I'm still in 7th thinking but of course you can still split fire the squad should you need to so bigger squads it is!
Obviosuly you'd have to specify targets for the squad prior to rolling/re-rolling number of shots though. Its rough on orks because those CP are so valuable for that time your 30 strong squad takes huge casualties.
I've never needed the 2 CP for auto-passing a moral check on a boyz mob because there is either a warboss (or Thrakka) nearby reducing those casualties to d3 anyways or you don't save enough boyz to make it worth the points. Also keep in mind that the banner nob also saves every sixth ork killed by moral. Not game breaking, but he tends to save three or four boyz per turn that way, which means nine to twelve additional 2+ attacks in combat.
The only time I've used the auto-pass for morale was on gretchin when opponents killed just enough to wipe them through morale. I saved minimum 13 gretchin that way and he still had to deal with them shutting down his shooting and them being in the way of his vehicles, while also he was denied a dead unit for his maelstrom objective. Bonus is that next time they make sure to kill gretchin to the last grot, and anything shooting gretchin is not shooting anything else.
Speaking of, which were the most cunnin' uses of CP you made so far? Here is my list:
- 17 gretchin auto-passing morale after 13 casualties, leaving them all allive
- Re-rolling a failed to wound rolls for Thrakka against a vehicle, to have another 3 damage wound that needed saving
- Calling counter-attack stratagem against a space marine dread (there was another charge on the other side of the board). The slugga boyz ruined it before it even got to strike
Slugga Boyz seem like the be all and end all but I'm kind of thinking of building one of my Boyz mobs as a 30 Shoota squad and teleporting it with a Weirdboy.
Fluffy ish too, since I'm doing my Orks as Bad Moons and Bad Moons need all the dakka.
I play Shootas with a weirdboy, they're great. People underestimate the shooting and obviously the assault afterwards is good too.
I think one thing I'm struggling with are painboyz and waaagh banners.
Both give great aoe buffs, but the problem is that when units start charging and piling in and consolidating, I find that the buffing non-combat units get left behind and can't reasonably catch up.
Yes, you can conga line units back to the buffers but......that seems like a dumb way to play.
Painboyz, at least, can take a bike, which seems to me to be the only way to take them. But the waaagh banner isn't so lucky.
Perhaps put them in a vehicle, and pop them out when necessary?
Kap'n Krump wrote: the buffing non-combat units get left behind and can't reasonably catch up.
This is a big problem, also pretty much my main reason for putting bosses on bikez, so they don't get left behind too!
Da trukks iz too expensive for that. Have grotz at da rear of da formation, when da boyz go to work, da little gitz advance and wrap the bannerz, doks, and weirdgitz. Can't be charged or shot at because characters.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I think one thing I'm struggling with are painboyz and waaagh banners.
Both give great aoe buffs, but the problem is that when units start charging and piling in and consolidating, I find that the buffing non-combat units get left behind and can't reasonably catch up.
Yes, you can conga line units back to the buffers but......that seems like a dumb way to play.
Painboyz, at least, can take a bike, which seems to me to be the only way to take them. But the waaagh banner isn't so lucky.
Perhaps put them in a vehicle, and pop them out when necessary?
This is the common approach I think. One or two warbosses on bikes, and a single trukk with all the weirdboyz, bruce banner and grotsnik. Meks can footslog, their buff less critical when close combat is joined.
The trukk of characters can deploy in a single drop, and two weirdboyz can disembark on the first turn before movement.
Slugga Boyz seem like the be all and end all but I'm kind of thinking of building one of my Boyz mobs as a 30 Shoota squad and teleporting it with a Weirdboy.
Fluffy ish too, since I'm doing my Orks as Bad Moons and Bad Moons need all the dakka.
I play Shootas with a weirdboy, they're great. People underestimate the shooting and obviously the assault afterwards is good too.
Also it takes a fair bit of shooting to eliminate 31 T4 wounds. Lots of armies can do this, but them focusing on a tenth of your army helps elsewhere.
If the blob is enough of a threat, multi-trukk lists are left mainly unscathed. Either way turn 2 still sucks for the enemy.
I'm thinking of slowly starting to build up a Super Heavy detachment of Kill Tanks with either Slugga Boyz or maybe Burna Boyz riding on them. I figure I could get a Super Heavy Detachment and a Patrol Detachment with KFF Big Meks (at least one on a warbike, I'm not sure if I have the points for two on bikes). Of course, by the time I save up for 4-5 Kill Tanks and get them assembled and painted I figure either the Ork Codex will be out and things might need to be re-thought, or Super Heavies and/or Forge World will be limited at Tournaments.
I'm still going to collect a bunch of them, as they're rad, but I'm not going to try to rush it.
Do you think an old Forge World Deff Rolla Battle Fortress would be an acceptable "counts as" for a Kill Blasta?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I'm thinking of slowly starting to build up a Super Heavy detachment of Kill Tanks with either Slugga Boyz or maybe Burna Boyz riding on them. I figure I could get a Super Heavy Detachment and a Patrol Detachment with KFF Big Meks (at least one on a warbike, I'm not sure if I have the points for two on bikes). Of course, by the time I save up for 4-5 Kill Tanks and get them assembled and painted I figure either the Ork Codex will be out and things might need to be re-thought, or Super Heavies and/or Forge World will be limited at Tournaments.
I'm still going to collect a bunch of them, as they're rad, but I'm not going to try to rush it.
Do you think an old Forge World Deff Rolla Battle Fortress would be an acceptable "counts as" for a Kill Blasta?
Buy 3-4 various tank kits from whatever faction you like and just build something thats the right dimensions.Buy some plasticard (5mm is great for building a base shape), build a rough shape and add stuff to the outside. Here's something I did as an experiment. I used plasticard to build a base frame, then using greenstuff mixed with milliput (cheaper than green stuff and adds decent qualities), I basically made imprints from GW shapes to build the outside.
Spoiler:
I've never had any complaints running it and no one has ever realised its not made from plastic.
I run all my vehicles as count-as and i've never had a real issue. "hey these 4 really large tanks... that make up my entire army... they are kill tanks".
Not a lot they can really say, your army doesn't have anything else that they could confused it with. I would LOVE to play against 4 kill tanks. So come my way and we'll have a game! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regards to grots.
As far as i can tell, if I teleport them, there is nothing preventing me from placing them any way I like; so long as 9" away from enemy and within unit coherency?
So using grots you can effectively just conga line and take up huge board space? Basically im thinking of using teleporting grots to make it difficult for the enemy to get around to various objectives while I use koptas to zip around grabbing points?
Kap'n Krump wrote: I think one thing I'm struggling with are painboyz and waaagh banners.
Both give great aoe buffs, but the problem is that when units start charging and piling in and consolidating, I find that the buffing non-combat units get left behind and can't reasonably catch up.
Yes, you can conga line units back to the buffers but......that seems like a dumb way to play.
Painboyz, at least, can take a bike, which seems to me to be the only way to take them. But the waaagh banner isn't so lucky.
Perhaps put them in a vehicle, and pop them out when necessary?
I've solved this problem by putting the AOE buffers inside the footprint of the boyz squad and then when you roll to charge you only have to move one ork within 1" then the rest move around the painboy leaving a clear line for the painboy/nob to achieve assault as well.
This only works for single squads. Its pretty hard to retain buffs on multiple squads simultaneously without conga lining.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best ways to mitigate Ld problems in a large group of Kanz? If you lose one Kan it's a 33% chance to lose another one.
One way is to spend 1 CP rerolling when you have lost a kan, or spend two CP auto-passing when you have lost more than one. Another option is to keep a banner nob nearby. He will buff the kans i close combat (by a whopping +50%), and he provides a 6+ save against fleeing kans. Really good. Another solution is to keep a warboss nearby. Then you can convert a failed morale test into D3 mortal wounds.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best ways to mitigate Ld problems in a large group of Kanz? If you lose one Kan it's a 33% chance to lose another one.
It isn't quite as bad as you are indicating. Losing 1 Kan gives you a 1/6 chance of losing an additional Kan (they are LD 6, so 1 casualty makes your roll D6+1, so on a 6 you lose one model), now if you lose 2 Kans things can really go south.
The ways I can see to mitigate this is are
1.) A warboss makes them lose D3 Mortal wounds instead of a casualty, so assuming you don't have a second Kan with only 3 wounds remaining.
2.) Using Command points to auto pass or re-roll the morale roll. If you lose a bunch of kans ( If you have 6 and lost 4, an auto pass might be worth your CP)
3.) Give your warlord the Inspiring leader trait, and keep him near your kans A Warboss is LD8, a Mega Armoured Big Mek is the same, a few others are 7. So this means you can take 1 or 2 casualties and still be immune to morale.
4.) Not great but a Nob, can save them on a 6+
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
Yep. The only advantage of grots is pistols which can shoot in combat, and be "Surprisingly Effective" with marine BS.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
That is fairly cheap (60 points), but it only averages 4.4 wounds (pre save) against T4 and 5, any thing above T5 it drops to 2.2. So it is better than equivalent points of shoota boyz (they do 3.3 wounds against T4 and 2.2 against T5-7). The issue is that unless you are spamming wagons it does not make efficient use of their transport capacity
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
They actually have a lower damage out-put unless we include close combat.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
I think the point was that the grots are still able to shoot their pistols at the unit the battlewagon is in combat with. Shootas won't be able to do this.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
I think the point was that the grots are still able to shoot their pistols at the unit the battlewagon is in combat with. Shootas won't be able to do this.
It sounds like a fun idea!
Good Point if you wanted to make the battle wagon just a charge into CC unit, that has some potential (essentially 10 S3 hits on average). The issue is that it relies on your opponent not falling back from combat in their turn. It also requires not taking the Ard case, which I think is fairly desirable for a Close combat wagon.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A squad of 10 shootas cost the same and has a much, much higher damage output.
I think the point was that the grots are still able to shoot their pistols at the unit the battlewagon is in combat with. Shootas won't be able to do this.
It sounds like a fun idea!
Good Point if you wanted to make the battle wagon just a charge into CC unit, that has some potential (essentially 10 S3 hits on average). The issue is that it relies on your opponent not falling back from combat in their turn. It also requires not taking the Ard case, which I think is fairly desirable for a Close combat wagon.
It is actually 13.3 hits on average since the grots get +1 to hit when they are 20 or more models, but yes you are right about the 'ard case.
I'm thinking of slowly starting to build up a Super Heavy detachment of Kill Tanks with either Slugga Boyz or maybe Burna Boyz riding on them. I figure I could get a Super Heavy Detachment and a Patrol Detachment with KFF Big Meks (at least one on a warbike, I'm not sure if I have the points for two on bikes). Of course, by the time I save up for 4-5 Kill Tanks and get them assembled and painted I figure either the Ork Codex will be out and things might need to be re-thought, or Super Heavies and/or Forge World will be limited at Tournaments.
I'm still going to collect a bunch of them, as they're rad, but I'm not going to try to rush it.
Do you think an old Forge World Deff Rolla Battle Fortress would be an acceptable "counts as" for a Kill Blasta?
Buy 3-4 various tank kits from whatever faction you like and just build something thats the right dimensions.Buy some plasticard (5mm is great for building a base shape), build a rough shape and add stuff to the outside. Here's something I did as an experiment. I used plasticard to build a base frame, then using greenstuff mixed with milliput (cheaper than green stuff and adds decent qualities), I basically made imprints from GW shapes to build the outside.
Spoiler:
I've never had any complaints running it and no one has ever realised its not made from plastic.
I run all my vehicles as count-as and i've never had a real issue. "hey these 4 really large tanks... that make up my entire army... they are kill tanks".
Not a lot they can really say, your army doesn't have anything else that they could confused it with. I would LOVE to play against 4 kill tanks. So come my way and we'll have a game! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That looks great!
I'll definitely have to scratch build and converst some, as 4-5 that looked pretty much exactly the same would be pretty un-orky.
Dr.Duck wrote: Wonder if trukk orks is still viable. Just use nobz instead of boyz.
I've been thinking of this for a while. Get a full group of Nobz (slugga choppa or Big choppa) add 1x Warboss and 1x Painboy (or Banner). When the trukk blows you lose 2 nobz on average. Not sure how the points stack up as you're putting 295 points into a trukk and charging it as fast as you can. The Nobz are 170 points + warboss 85 + Painboy 40. Haven't had a chance to try it out but it's on my list.
Dr.Duck wrote: Wonder if trukk orks is still viable. Just use nobz instead of boyz.
I've been thinking of this for a while. Get a full group of Nobz (slugga choppa or Big choppa) add 1x Warboss and 1x Painboy (or Banner). When the trukk blows you lose 2 nobz on average. Not sure how the points stack up as you're putting 295 points into a trukk and charging it as fast as you can. The Nobz are 170 points + warboss 85 + Painboy 40. Haven't had a chance to try it out but it's on my list.
Couldn't you just take 2 ammo runts on the Nobz and eat the wounds on those for the trukk explosion. 4 points a piece isn't alot.
Nobz really only seem worth it with Big Choppas, with slugga choppa they are just so expensive (almost 3x boyz). Sure they can fit in a truck, but 170 points. Gets you 30 S5 attacks and 20 T4 4+ save wounds, instead of 28 Boyz (with boss nob) getting you 4 S 5 attacks, 108 S 4 attacks, and 29 6+ Save wounds.
So you gain durability by a little (takes 120 Bolter shots to kill the Nobz vs 104 For the boyz, however against multi damage weapons Nobz lose a lot) but give up a lot of offense. Nobz do 4.4 wounds to marines, Boyz to 13ish. You do gain mobility from the trukk, So if you want to try a trukk rush Nobz could be ok
Got bored. Bumped my Deff Rolla wagon with 'ard case into a Deff Dread 3klaw/1skorcha repeatedly, maybe 12 times. Deff Dread didn't win once. At 30 points cheaper because it is not a transport, and with D3 damage for high wound targets like wagonz, it was surprising the dread never won. Really the deff rolla hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's seems good just in comparison to our Dread whi has two less attacks, and all this not mentioning the Wagonz move speed or transport capacity vs the dread. Battlewagon seems a bargain, or deff dread is overcosted.
Interesting, just a note the dread klaw is 3 Damage not D3 damage.
Math says
Battle wagon averages 2.22 damage each round. (5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 unsaved (5+ save) so it should take 4 rounds of combat to kill the deff dread.(3.60
Dread deals 2.22 wounds each round for lets say 6 damage. (3 klaws is 5 attacks, 3.33 hit, 2.22 wound, no save on the wagon). Dread should kill the Wagon in 3 rounds.
Also of note that after 2 round the wagon is worse (only D6 attacks).
It sounds like you might be playing the dread wrong.
Dread is S 10 in combat with -3 Ap and 3 damagae, the kaws give +1 per klaw (not per klaw after the first) so it has 2 + 3 attacks (5 attacks)
So with average rolling the Wagon should never win.
Doing 50 tests using a random number generator I have the wagon averaging around 2 wounds, and the Dread averaging 6-7. With the Dread having a max round of 15 wounds, and the wagon having a max of 5., with both having rounds where they both miss everything.
All that excludes the Dread doing anything with its flamer prior to combat (either before it charges or during overwatch).
You could also for a few point cheaper go with 4 klaws and have 6 attacks, and really wreck the wagon, with 8 wounds average per round (so 6 or 9 each round).
I'll definitely have to scratch build and converst some, as 4-5 that looked pretty much exactly the same would be pretty un-orky.
You've gone and got me excited now ans im literally digging out kits as we speak.
killtank loadout? whats everyones thoughts? 2d6 s10 d4 bursta, or the 6d6 s6 d1 giga? initially i am leaning towards the bursta, with 2d6 using a CP a turn is going to net you a reasonable number of shots, question is, does it do enough damage? lets say you get 8 shots, 4 hits, wounding on 3+ against most vehicles. your only averaging about 6 damage a turn. seems pretty low output. the giga isnt any better vs tougher vehicles, but at str 6 it should be great at piling wounds onto light vehicles. Thoughts?
im thinking of sticking 2x5 man kommandos inside, gets me 4 burnas and some ablative wounds, i can then use the last two slots for banner nob and warboss/big mek
Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.
All five of them are almost completely out of orks.
Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.
There is a Waaagh comming
So, I just got two Deff Dreads for my birthday, how should I build them? Obviously we won't hit gakk with anything that requires to hit, so it's skorchas or klaws.
Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?
Another thing I realized, Kanz with KMB are cheaper than Kanz with rokkits - has anyone tried running them that way?
Neither kanz nor dreads are all that great cause they are like 30% overpriced. However, they're definitely better than in 7-th and you can still have them work somewhat fine.
The loadout depends on what you are using them with. If you have a lot of boyz than take all klaws. As boys struggle with killing tough stuff. If you're running dreads more or less self-sustained, take either skorchas to actually kill stuff at range or bigshootas to keep them as cheap as possible. All klaws can still be fine.
I'd try to keep them on the flanks as durability is below average for points and avoiding some anti-tank fire can be helpful. If you have a kff mek, stick them together and than...it all depends on the opponent.
Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.
A deff rolla battlewagon is 180, with that unit of gretchin it goes up to 220. Instead of two wagons like that for just 4 points more you could get 3 Dakkajets which are slightly harder to kill (-1T but +4 wounds and hard to hit), kill 9 MEQ starting turn 1 and award +1CP for the detachment.
I think the battlewagon pays too much tax for being a transport to just use it for its close combat ability.
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koooaei wrote: Neither kanz nor dreads are all that great cause they are like 30% overpriced. However, they're definitely better than in 7-th and you can still have them work somewhat fine.
The loadout depends on what you are using them with. If you have a lot of boyz than take all klaws. As boys struggle with killing tough stuff. If you're running dreads more or less self-sustained, take either skorchas to actually kill stuff at range or bigshootas to keep them as cheap as possible. All klaws can still be fine.
I'd try to keep them on the flanks as durability is below average for points and avoiding some anti-tank fire can be helpful. If you have a kff mek, stick them together and than...it all depends on the opponent.
Thanks for the advice. I plan on using them with my 5th edition kan wall combined with my experiences from my games in 8th so far, resulting in something like this:
Big Mek: Big Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek: Big Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy: 2. Warpath
Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
+ Troops +
Boyz . . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz . . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz . . Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha
. . 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
+ Elites +
Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota
Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota
So basically keep two units kanz in front of the boyz with KFF and maybe inside of the banner nob buff bubble (let's see how well that works in practice) and simply march towards the enemy until either of us is no more. Each dread is supposed to stick with one KFF mek.
go jidmah go! youll basically be testing a list im currently building! only difference being moving over to a brigade and using grot tanks for the FA slot. as they are cheaper than kanz and basically you can bring a unit of 4 for about 120 with either KMBs or rokkits (kmb on kommanda, as you cant take 2x rokkits, you have to take the 28 point rack.... so you pay an extra 4 points just for rokkits....whereas kmbs its only 2x9.)
maybe turn the dreds into a meka-dred. i feel like the meka dred is one of our best units with a kff, the ramshackle ignoring wounds is great coupled with a kff. plus if you squeeze it out in a brigade then the 9 cp is great for keeping tje ramshackle going.
Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?
What about magnetizing the model? This way you can switch its weapons. I did it on the plastic dread and it's quite simple but very effective actually.
If you're not interested in this solution I'd suggest to go full CCWs if you plan to rely on its klaws and play it aggresively or to keep its standard setup (2 big shootas) if you want to run it as cheap as possible due to the fact that it's not reliable even with max close combat upgrades, and this is basically I would run the walker and how I used to run it in the previous edition. I'm not a fan of 8th edition skorchas but they're not totally useless either.
I think the battlewagon pays too much tax for being a transport to just use it for its close combat ability.
I think the BW is useful if you really want the combo Ghaz + boyz since to teleport them you'll need 2 weirdboyz but deep striking 2x30 boyz is better than 30 boyz + ghaz.
As far as the dread, my only consideration would be if your kan wall has the boyz to back it up I wouldn't take any skorcha, just take klaws. If you were walker heavy and model count light and maybe need something to cut the bubble wrap then deff dread is ideal.
The other weapons are a waste I think, you'll want to advance and -1 hit is no bueno
Jidmah wrote: Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.
All five of them are almost completely out of orks.
Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.
There is a Waaagh comming
Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.
Honestly if you are not using the battlewagon as a delivery system. Just take the squiggoth d3 mortal wounds to every unit within 1in on the charge on a 2+ And the 5x str7 his that do d6 wounds on a 4+ and at least you can still shoot in combat and has 18 wounds at toughness 7.
so, now that our fliers have no facing, does that make all its weapons on a 360 arc? also, with the whole supersonic rule, does this mean we are basically doing minimum 20 inch square laps?
im thinking about using 2 fliers, starting on the edges and moving centrally, so that on turn 1 the flier bases after moving are in front of my walker list; so acting as a screen. does that limit my shooting in any way? the 90 degree pivot thing sounds a little annoying
Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?
What about magnetizing the model? This way you can switch its weapons. I did it on the plastic dread and it's quite simple but very effective actually.
I totally suck at painting, but I'm decent model builder and converter
All my models are magnetized or altered so you can snap-fit upgrades and weapons on. I even got three fully magnetized jets that can turn into any of the three ork planes within seconds.
These ones will be no exception, if only to share my magnetized kanz arms with the dreads.
If you're not interested in this solution I'd suggest to go full CCWs if you plan to rely on its klaws and play it aggresively or to keep its standard setup (2 big shootas) if you want to run it as cheap as possible due to the fact that it's not reliable even with max close combat upgrades, and this is basically I would run the walker and how I used to run it in the previous edition. I'm not a fan of 8th edition skorchas but they're not totally useless either.
But it gets more reliable with more klaws, the only reason not to take klaws would be using skorchas for overwatch or advance&shoot. Due to S5 and AP-1 it's even pretty decent against light vehicles, my kombi-skorchas have yet to fail me.
I think the BW is useful if you really want the combo Ghaz + boyz since to teleport them you'll need 2 weirdboyz but deep striking 2x30 boyz is better than 30 boyz + ghaz.
I think you got me wrong - the BW is totally awesome as a transport, on average it took about five time its points to take out a battlewagon and the boyz unit inside in my games. It's just not as awesome when you are not using it as a transport to deliver CC awesomeness, which is what the quoted player was trying.
I also don't think a BW is necessary for Ghaz, as he doesn't move any slower than a regular warboss.
Solar Shock wrote:go jidmah go! youll basically be testing a list im currently building! only difference being moving over to a brigade and using grot tanks for the FA slot. as they are cheaper than kanz and basically you can bring a unit of 4 for about 120 with either KMBs or rokkits (kmb on kommanda, as you cant take 2x rokkits, you have to take the 28 point rack.... so you pay an extra 4 points just for rokkits....whereas kmbs its only 2x9.)
But... aren't you missing 3 troop slots for the brigade? Of course you could just add 90 points of gretchin and jump them all over the objectives, but I don't feel like I need those 5 additional CP, especially not if I can get another ork melta weirdboy for those points.
Currently I can have 7 CP which are planned to use for re-rolling or auto-passing kan moral (worst case needed once per kan unit per game), re-roll failed charge ranges for kanz and maybe use counter-attack to ruin someone that would otherwise kill my walker in combat.
I don't have the luxury to re-roll whatever I feel like, but there is enough redundancy in the list so it doesn't come apart with one botched roll. And if it does, maybe I'll just remove a kan as a moral casualty. Chance are that it's damaged anyways and I'll lose only 2 or 3 wounds that way.
maybe turn the dreds into a meka-dred. i feel like the meka dred is one of our best units with a kff, the ramshackle ignoring wounds is great coupled with a kff. plus if you squeeze it out in a brigade then the 9 cp is great for keeping tje ramshackle going.
With the players here, if you want to play forgeworld you have to bring forgeworld. Kitbashing the current forgeworld flavor of the month will get you frowns at the least and store employees downgrading your model to its actual kit at the worst.
Also, since I've been playing since early 5th edition I can tell you it's not worth ruining a perfectly fine deff dread kit now to build a mekka dread, since it might go back to being a completely worthless model within a year or two. Or FW might forget they ever made that model, just ask anyone who owns a mega-dread.
Rismonite wrote:As far as the dread, my only consideration would be if your kan wall has the boyz to back it up I wouldn't take any skorcha, just take klaws. If you were walker heavy and model count light and maybe need something to cut the bubble wrap then deff dread is ideal.
The other weapons are a waste I think, you'll want to advance and -1 hit is no bueno
Haven't thought about frying bubble wraps. Good advice though, I agree on all other weapons being a waste of points.
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koooaei wrote: I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.
There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).
Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.
In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.
koooaei wrote: I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.
There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).
Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.
In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.
Solar Shock wrote: so, now that our fliers have no facing, does that make all its weapons on a 360 arc? also, with the whole supersonic rule, does this mean we are basically doing minimum 20 inch square laps?
Jidmah wrote: Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.
All five of them are almost completely out of orks.
Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.
There is a Waaagh comming
Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.
Ork horde is competitve... not top 5 list competitve but competitve. However it's like the only ultra competitve list for us. I'm worried if ere we go gets faq'd to both dice only that will bring horde orks down a peg. This guy is showing how well Ork horde is doing. https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/?m=1
koooaei wrote: I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.
There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).
Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.
In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.
v0iddrgn wrote: I interpreted that those were additional rolls (i.e. Attacks) when using the Deff Rolla.
Thats what I thought initially, but then it would say "+3 attacks". The wording seems a bit clunky, but it makes sense if its interpreted as +3 to hit.
Any thoughts on Forgeworld units? I think big trakk with supa skorcha looks good. Anything else stand out or test well so far? Looking at putting an order in.
Also has FW mentioned anything about the missing units? mega dread
Fought my friend the other day in a 1750 point game. He used his Tyranids. This is the first 8th game I got to use my Deff Dread, my Dakkajet (which is brand new), Weirdboy (also brand new (had to get the AoS Weirdnob model for it)) and my Gretchin.
I think the Deff Dread did really well. First turn (after he was sadly not able to charge his spooky Genestealers that came in a Tyranocyte and his Hormagaunts that came with a Trygon) in my shooting phase the Deff Dread contributed to destroying the Genestealers with its scorcha (got 5 hits and I think 3 kills, whiffed with the big shoota though) and in my opponents fight phase in turn 2 it squared off against his Hive Tyrant. He vastly underestimated the Deff Dreads CQC capabilities and had something else fight first so I used 2 CP for the counter-offensive thing and that Deff Dread single handedly took down the Hive Tyrant doing 1 wound in overwatch and then 9 wounds in melee.
The Gretchin of course were my troop tax to make the third troop slot for Battalion and surprisingly enough weathered the shooting of his Trygon with 2 models surviving. They did their job which was to just camp on an objective.
My friend conceded after his 2nd turn (so before my 2nd turn) so I only actually got to use the Dakkajet for one shooting phase so I think I need to run it some more to get a grasp of what it's good at. I had it fly over his army and attempt to finish off the Trygon which had 3 wounds left. Unfortunately I left it at one but in hindsight, if my math is right, that was statistically normal.
Keeping in mind that supa shootas are S6 AP-1 and the Trygon is T6 with a 3+
18 shots->9 hits->4.5 wounds->2.25 unsaved
Also need to use more of the Weirdboy to let him get an opportunity to shine but his WAAAGH energy ability seems really powerful. I cast Warpath on my mob of Boyz by rolling 6 (two 3s) and then +4 from nearby models so I succeeded on a 10. Unfortunately my friend denied it with an 11. The potential to just crank out mortal wounds with Smite though seems really strong on him (as others in this thread have stated).
Unfortunately my friend felt that his losses were far too severe to continue playing so as I said he conceded after his turn 2.
Of note was my Battlewagon's kannon which scored a hit on his Trygon AND rolled a 6 on its damage and my lone Mega-kannon which was able to take out a single Hive Guard model which was enough to make back its points and also denied him its rather powerful anti-armor gun (the thing that gives mortal wounds to vehicles).
Kanz are not particularly killy to begin with. But they've got passable durability. Which means that they can be used to eat overwatch and tie up opponent's units. So, the more kanz are still around, the more enemies you can neuter. It's highly unlikely that even a large squad of kanz will inflict enough damage to wipe anything meaningful. But they still provide utility. So, that's why i'd rather have more kanz around than all the same kanz but with a bit more attacks and a chance to loose some of them if the enemy concentrates fire.
Anyone else adding Smasha guns to their army? I just turned 5 of my Mek guns into Smasha guns I'll be down to 3 KMK's but I think it'll be better. I'm excited about that AP-4 D6 damage!
I also turned my two Traktor Kannons into Smasha guns. I don't see the value in them Kannons do D6 Damage and cost less.
killtank loadout? whats everyones thoughts? 2d6 s10 d4 bursta, or the 6d6 s6 d1 giga? initially i am leaning towards the bursta, with 2d6 using a CP a turn is going to net you a reasonable number of shots, question is, does it do enough damage? lets say you get 8 shots, 4 hits, wounding on 3+ against most vehicles. your only averaging about 6 damage a turn. seems pretty low output. the giga isnt any better vs tougher vehicles, but at str 6 it should be great at piling wounds onto light vehicles. Thoughts?
I haven't tried either yet, but looking at the stats the Bursta Kannon and Giga Shoota seem pretty balanced against each other. I like the Bursta Kannon a little bit more, not because the Giga Shoota is bad, but rather because the orks already have a lot of high-volume, medium strength shooting.
I was a bit disappointed with the Bursta Kannon when I first looked at it, but if I'm doing the math right it's pretty comparable to four lascannons that are hitting on 3+. It won't annihilate an enemy tank all by itself, but neither will most other things. It's hard to get used to how tough vehicles are.
I'm thinking about running 3x Twin Big Shootas on my Kill Tanks. I think that normally Skorchas are better than Twin Big Shootas because Orks are frequently advancing, but on a Kill Tank or other vehicle that's holding still Big Shootas seem really good for the points. Racks of Rokkits seem overcosted, even with the Kill Tank hitting on 4+.
I think that the Kill Tanks are roughly comparable to Land Raiders in function. Kill Tanks have better overall damage output (roughly the same dakka, but Kill Tanks can fight in close combat and embarked units have a limited ability to shoot). Kill Tanks have 50% more wounds , but the Land Raider has a better save. Land Raiders have smoke launchers, which are situationally better than the Grot Riggers of Kill Tanks. Kill Tanks move a little faster and haul a couple more models. I think that overall the Kill Tank is better than a Land Raider*, and it costs fewer points.
*This isn't counting the effect of buffing characters, which can be significant. It's also assuming a standard Land Raider and not any of the variants.
Solar Shock wrote: so, now that our fliers have no facing, does that make all its weapons on a 360 arc? also, with the whole supersonic rule, does this mean we are basically doing minimum 20 inch square laps?
Yes and yes.
Yeah, the 20in square around the battlefield is really going to limit the ability of fliers to go for objectives, and makes the wazbom's short range weapons somewhat worse. Not having to worry about weapon arcs is great though.
Crons had:
Overlord with a res orb
Cryptech
2*10 warriors
5 immortals
2*3 scarabs
5 deathmarks
Some large spider thing with a twin lazcannon
An annihilation barge
I got the 1-st turn and decided to outflank koptas trying to hide them from his anti-tnak shooting and tie up warriors on one flank. All the boyz and characters advanced - boyz got good moves but the banner nob and wierdboy lagged behind - even with a cp re-roll. One kopta made it to warriors and tied them up. Crons decided to leave a barge and spider behind, moved all the warriors and immortals into rapid-fire range. Blos didn't help koptas as he shot from the spider's leg and killed a kopta and from the edge of a barge and killed another one. Warriors and immortals killed a bunch of boyz. Deathmarks didn't do anything to a wierdboy.
2-d turn saw orks advancing forward - banner nob got a bad advance roll again. I decided to killing a couple scarab bases with smite and all the bits of shooting i had. This allowed all boyz to get to warriors. All 3 squads made their charges - thanks to re-rolls and wiped all the warriors, immortals and scarabs. Even without a +1 to-hit from banner nob but with +1 attack from Ghaz and a further +1 from greentide.
Necron player decided to concede and we played a second game - a smaller ~500 pt one this time.
Second game vs crons.
Lists:
Spoiler:
Orks:
Biker boss with a pk and k-skorcha
Wierdboy
2*20 choppaboyz with naked nobz
Kopta with a tl-bigshoota
Crons:
Cryptech
2*10 warriors
Spider thingy
This time crons got 1-st turn but i stole ini and advanced. Shot a warrior down with tl-dakkaguns but he went back up.
This time necrons tried to play more defensively and stayed ~22' away from boyz. The spider went a bit closer - around 19', however. But it was mainly due to terrain. Also, he wanted to lure a larger squad of boyz away from warriors with a spider - which is a nice plan ofc.
His shooting killed 14 boyz - 12 from one squad and 2 from another.
As i had no way of killing him at range and couldn't wait to get ideal positioning, i just rushed the warboss towards his necron warriors and a larger boy squad towards a spider - as i had to keep it away from the boss. Kopta arrived close to warriors. Boss made a charge towards his warriors and piled in to another squad to tie them up. Killed 4 cron robots and suffered 2 wounds in return. Wierdboy smited a spider for 3 mortal wounds and a larger boy squad inflicted another 3 on the charge.
3 warriors reanimated and a spider regained a wound and decided to disengage boyz and lure them even further from the warrior blobs. 9 warriors disengaged from boss. Mellee saw boss loosing another wound and inflicting 2 wounds to a cryptech.
Orks that were free from a spider decided it was a better idea to stomp smaller robots rather than chase the larger spider one. Wierdboy advanced towards a cryptech but rolled a 1 even with a cp re-roll. Kopta flew over 9 warriors and dropped a bomm killig 3. The smaller boy squad moved towards a cryptech. Charging got 6 necron warriors and a cryptech killed. Furthermore, most of the other necron squad died.
Next turn the rest of the warriors died, spider shot a wierdboy for 3 wounds and orks kept the rest of the game chasing down the spider.
Some insights:
- Ghaz is great. His +1 attack aura alone is worth 100 pts over a regular megaboss. And he's got better stats to boot. Is definitely playable even footslogging.
- Banner nob is really dependant on how well you roll your advance moves. It's very easy to get the boyz run out of his small aura like it happened in my 1-st game. 79 pts is a stiff price to pay for him. I'm not sure he's really worth it but i might be wrong.
- Koptas are not amazing. They have utility but they're just so squishy for the points. It's almost impossible to hide them with how shooting and cover works now. And a couple multi-damage shots are bound to down a kopta. The speed is ok. Bomb is pretty useful. Shooting and mellee are forgettable. I'd say that their real price is close to ~45-50 pts and definitely not ~77.
- Boyz are great vs stuff that can't one-shot them off the board. They deal good damage for the points - especially with some +attack buffs.
killtank loadout? whats everyones thoughts? 2d6 s10 d4 bursta, or the 6d6 s6 d1 giga? initially i am leaning towards the bursta, with 2d6 using a CP a turn is going to net you a reasonable number of shots, question is, does it do enough damage? lets say you get 8 shots, 4 hits, wounding on 3+ against most vehicles. your only averaging about 6 damage a turn. seems pretty low output. the giga isnt any better vs tougher vehicles, but at str 6 it should be great at piling wounds onto light vehicles. Thoughts?
I haven't tried either yet, but looking at the stats the Bursta Kannon and Giga Shoota seem pretty balanced against each other. I like the Bursta Kannon a little bit more, not because the Giga Shoota is bad, but rather because the orks already have a lot of high-volume, medium strength shooting.
I was a bit disappointed with the Bursta Kannon when I first looked at it, but if I'm doing the math right it's pretty comparable to four lascannons that are hitting on 3+. It won't annihilate an enemy tank all by itself, but neither will most other things. It's hard to get used to how tough vehicles are.
I'm thinking about running 3x Twin Big Shootas on my Kill Tanks. I think that normally Skorchas are better than Twin Big Shootas because Orks are frequently advancing, but on a Kill Tank or other vehicle that's holding still Big Shootas seem really good for the points. Racks of Rokkits seem overcosted, even with the Kill Tank hitting on 4+.
I think that the Kill Tanks are roughly comparable to Land Raiders in function. Kill Tanks have better overall damage output (roughly the same dakka, but Kill Tanks can fight in close combat and embarked units have a limited ability to shoot). Kill Tanks have 50% more wounds , but the Land Raider has a better save. Land Raiders have smoke launchers, which are situationally better than the Grot Riggers of Kill Tanks. Kill Tanks move a little faster and haul a couple more models. I think that overall the Kill Tank is better than a Land Raider*, and it costs fewer points.
*This isn't counting the effect of buffing characters, which can be significant. It's also assuming a standard Land Raider and not any of the variants.
Yeh, pretty much how i feel about it. Anyways, considering there isnt a model for the two weapons, I am just gona stick a necron doom-cannon-laser-thiny on mine, pretty sure thats its official name Rokkit racks seem overcosted on everything, 28 points for 2 rokkits, that cost 12 each normally. honestly I haven't found any platform that I think the 28 points is worth it.
The killtank cant fallback and shoot, the one thing I dislike about it. Big shootas keep it cheap, im tempted by KMB's if im running the bursta, for some extra anti-tank. Plus KMB's only cause 1 mortal wound regardless of number of shots, which is nice. But big shootas will be great with split fire. Stick a kommando unit inside and you have a few extra burna shots for overwatch too.
koooaei wrote:I've played a couple games vs necrons. Decided to try Ghaz, banner nob and 3 solo koptas.
Some insights:
- Ghaz is great. His +1 attack aura is alobe worth 100 pts over a regular megaboss. And he's got better stats to boot. Is definitely playable even footslogging.
- Banner nob is really dependant on how well you roll your advance moves. It's very easy to get the boyz run out of his small aura like it happened in my 1-st game. 79 pts is a stiff price to pay for him. I'm not sure he's really worth it but i might be wrong.
- Koptas are not amazing. They have utility but they're just so squishy for the points. It's almost impossible to hide them with how shooting and cover works now. And a couple multi-damage shots are bound to down a kopta. The speed is ok. Bomb is pretty useful. Shooting and mellee are forgettable. I'd say that their real price is close to ~45-50 pts and definitely not ~77.
- Boyz are great vs stuff that can't one-shot them off the board. They deal good damage for the points - especially with some +attack buffs.
Sounded like great games. Ghaz seems to be a good HQ choice, I may have to include him in my lists if hes viable footslogging.
How close was your banner nob? sounds like the poor advance rolls really ruined it, even with CP re-rolls. Were you putting him inside the boyz units at the start? (how close to the deployment line was he? I feel like you need to bury him on the line in boyz).
I feel koptas need to be kept cheap. the rokkits on them is just too much imo, the platform isn't tough enough to survive long enough. KMB's, yes they will help kill yourself, but lets be honest, if the enemy wants you dead, you dead. like you experienced. Give them KMB's, drop bombs and suicide into stuff its the ork way!
Were most of your boyz getting into CC? wondering whether sticking 5-10 shootas in your units would have been a net buff? if only a small one.
@jidmah, shame about the FW stuff, but it makes sense. let us know how the list gets on. I agree with Kooo about making the kanz units smaller, im personally just gona use a warboss and put d3 mortals on them instead, but I have yet to run my list.
koooaei wrote: Boss made a charge towards his warriors and piled in to another squad to tie them up.
How did that work? Did he have two units standing right next to each other?
- Banner nob is really dependant on how well you roll your advance moves. It's very easy to get the boyz run out of his small aura like it happened in my 1-st game. 79 pts is a stiff price to pay for him. I'm not sure he's really worth it but i might be wrong.
I think the key to most auras is not running them in the back of mobs but rather in front, with just 2-3 boyz in front of the character to prevent your opponent from shooting them. Pretty much like you used to run PK nobz in the previous edition. Of course, if you roll great on all boyz advances and terrible on the character he will be left behind at some point. In that case conga-lining one or two boyz towards them should still keep the aura active.
- Koptas are not amazing. They have utility but they're just so squishy for the points. It's almost impossible to hide them with how shooting and cover works now. And a couple multi-damage shots are bound to down a kopta.
I got the same impression, but they work a lot better when used with battlewagons, because they are weak to the same weapons. It's either shooting koptaz or battlewagons then, not both.
I'd not run them with footsloggers again.
Solar Shock wrote:
Sounded like great games. Ghaz seems to be a good HQ choice, I may have to include him in my lists if hes viable footslogging.
I think he is. Ghaz has a place in most footslogging or mech lists in at least 750 pt games. He's well worth his points.
Solar Shock wrote:How close was your banner nob? sounds like the poor advance rolls really ruined it, even with CP re-rolls. Were you putting him inside the boyz units at the start? (how close to the deployment line was he? I feel like you need to bury him on the line in boyz).
I started all the characters inside a central blob closer to the front. But than boyz rolled a 5 on advance a couple turns in a row and nob got 2 and 1. I even spread the boyz so tha they would touch the aura hoping that the nob would advance far enough 2-d turn but it wasn't the case. And than boyz had to make a ~7' charge and i forgot to leave 3-5 boyz behind just to be in banner nob'z range. So, the banner nob didn't do anything this game.
Solar Shock wrote:I feel koptas need to be kept cheap. the rokkits on them is just too much imo, the platform isn't tough enough to survive long enough. KMB's, yes they will help kill yourself, but lets be honest, if the enemy wants you dead, you dead. like you experienced. Give them KMB's, drop bombs and suicide into stuff its the ork way!
Yeah, i agree. I probably miscalculated - a kopta with tl bigshoota is <70 pts. That's still a lot. KMB are a tiny bit cheaper but are even worse at shooting at the same time. I don't know, really. It seems that i'd do better with another biker boss or squad of boyz.
Solar Shock wrote:Were most of your boyz getting into CC? wondering whether sticking 5-10 shootas in your units would have been a net buff? if only a small one.
I indeed fielded 10 shootas in each squad and they helped out a bit. They inflicted a couple wounds to scarabs finishing off a base allowing boyz to actually get to immortals and kill them on the charge. It all doesn't feel like much but even this tiny bits can be helpful. Especially when other shooting is close to nonexistent.
Jidmah wrote:
koooaei wrote: Boss made a charge towards his warriors and piled in to another squad to tie them up.
How did that work? Did he have two units standing right next to each other?
Yeah, he kept warriors close to buff them with a cryptech's +1 to RP and 5++. And i charged right in the middle where i could easilly pivot the base to get within 1' of another squad.
Jidmah wrote:I think the key to most auras is not running them in the back of mobs but rather in front, with just 2-3 boyz in front of the character to prevent your opponent from shooting them. Pretty much like you used to run PK nobz in the previous edition. Of course, if you roll great on all boyz advances and terrible on the character he will be left behind at some point. In that case conga-lining one or two boyz towards them should still keep the aura active.
I placed the nob amidst the blob - dead center to protect from deathmark's rapid fire. Usually charge ranges for footslogging boyz after advance are around 6-9'. Which brings them apart even further. In my case, the nob was >12' away from the blob's backlines and i simply forgot about him. They still did a ton of damage which was enough to wipe 20 warriors, 5 immortals and a couple scarab bases. +1 attack from Ghaz and +1 attack for a couple blobz were suffecient enough.
Jidmah wrote: I got the same impression, but they work a lot better when used with battlewagons, because they are weak to the same weapons. It's either shooting koptaz or battlewagons then, not both.
I'd not run them with footsloggers again.
They can work with larger los-blocking terrain but it's just not present in large amounts in the place where i play. Yeah, we have some large ruins but they don't help when the opponent can shoot all his guns from a vehicle's antenna or edge of the tread.
Yeah, i agree. I probably miscalculated - a kopta with tl bigshoota is <70 pts. That's still a lot. KMB are a tiny bit cheaper but are even worse at shooting at the same time. I don't know, really. It seems that i'd do better with another biker boss or squad of boyz.
Or a painboy on a warbike. They are better than you think. Just sayin
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: I placed the nob amidst the blob - dead center to protect from deathmark's rapid fire. Usually charge ranges for footslogging boyz after advance are around 6-9'. Which brings them apart even further. In my case, the nob was >12' away from the blob's backlines and i simply forgot about him. They still did a ton of damage which was enough to wipe 20 warriors, 5 immortals and a couple scarab bases. +1 attack from Ghaz and +1 attack for a couple blobz were suffecient enough.
Yes, that has been my experience too. The charge always leaves the characters behind. It is not always you want your bosses and other buff-characters to be in on the initial charge, as most players are clever enough to put all their attacks on the character. Ghaz can deal with this much better, which makes him feel faster on the board, even though he isn't.
Or a painboy on a warbike. They are better than you think. Just sayin
The last game I played against An ultramarine force of some tactical squads, devastator squad, predator, couple of primaris marine squads with the fancy plasma guns, and gulliman/gouliman/girlyman. That dude is squiq crap. Re-rolling everything?! LOL and that frickin sword is brutal. I charged the remnants of a boyz blob into him and all I got was butthurt. 58 attacks..0 wounds.
Anywayz..I had a big mek with KFF and a dok for two boyz blobs that were footslogging it. Another got jumped. But 60 boyz with a 5++/6++ and I saved MAYBE 10 boyz throughout the whole game. Once the boyz get into combat the big mek is hanging out with his dick in the wind..and the boy boy just isnt worth for 60+ points. Those two knuckleheads represented about 130 points. (I had another painboy that i used as a sacrifice when the meganobz battlewagon blew up because I was so pissed at the lack of fixin the other was doing ). So all said I was 190 points in for defensive/healing buff characters. I rather just take 30 more boyz. Or upgrade my MA warboss to ghaz and take another banner nob. I Think I'm done with KFF and Painboys for boys blobs.
I suppose when I try out an all bike list I will see if the painboy on bike is better for the bikes. But At this point i doubt it.
So far my pain boyz have done more killing than healing or saving. I think that they are probably better with multi-wound models, but I have not been super impressed with them.
KFF meks are better for vehicle heavy lists than they are for mobs, it is easier to cover more units, and you typically get shot by more high AP weapons, so getting a 5++ matters more when you are dropping from a 3+ or 4+ save, than it does when you improved from a 3+ save. Especially against AP 0 weapons, look at it this way, for every 6 AP 0 wounds the KFF saves 1 additional boy. I think the pain boy is a bit better for the Blobs than the KFF (because the blob can chain out to gain his buff, and against AP 0 the result is more or less the same out of the KFF (saves about 1 extra boy), and his buff works in combat.
Yeah, i agree. I probably miscalculated - a kopta with tl bigshoota is <70 pts. That's still a lot. KMB are a tiny bit cheaper but are even worse at shooting at the same time. I don't know, really. It seems that i'd do better with another biker boss or squad of boyz.
Or a painboy on a warbike. They are better than you think. Just sayin
That can still be true cause i'm having VERY low expectations. I think that there's no reason to take biker doks in a footslogging list when there's Grotsnik. Biker lists are not functional and mech lists don't really need doks as they're quite overcosted on smaller squads. And...once again there's Grotsnik who can at least deal more damage and is quite a bit sturdier.
I have an old metal saw painboy, a well-painted converted nob painboy and a slightly converted biker nob that used to perform a biker painboy role in 7-th. So, painboy issue, just like meganob one, is quite concerning for me. I think i'll field grotsnik as either a metal painboy or converted one. However, there's an issue of metal painboy being too small for grotsnik and the nob painboy not having a power klaw. He does have a mean-looking injector-pistol and a rusty syrenge.
I've been trying to come up with a competitive horde list varient and I'm thinking of using biker warbosses and mass stormboyz
To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies..
I haven't seen bikers mentioned too much but they seem to have the best chance of making it combat turn 1 (Waaagh! necessary):
14" movement + D6 advance + 2D6 (reroll) charge = maximum 32" in one turn, but much more likely to be around 24" assuming you reroll a low charge.
Is the price of bikers relative to their combat effectiveness generally putting off people ?
Levski wrote: I've been trying to come up with a competitive horde list varient and I'm thinking of using biker warbosses and mass stormboyz
To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies..
I haven't seen bikers mentioned too much but they seem to have the best chance of making it combat turn 1 (Waaagh! necessary):
14" movement + D6 advance + 2D6 (reroll) charge = maximum 32" in one turn, but much more likely to be around 24" assuming you reroll a low charge.
Is the price of bikers relative to their combat effectiveness generally putting off people ?
Waagh! doesn't effect bikes, so they cannot get to a 32" charge, they can only get to 26", Storm boyz, can get to 30" max so they would be the best solo unit that could charge turn 1. That said using DA jump on a unit is the most reliable 1st turn charge as it ensures a 9" charge. To get a 9" charge with storm boyz, in most deployments requires a 3" run if your opponent is deployed on the edge of their deployment zone. On those with 18" gap at closest you can do it almost all the time, if your opponent deploys too close.
I think the competitive horde will be mixed boyz and stormboyz, with a warboss, and weirdboy with Da jump, maybe some Kommandos, to throw a lot of threat turn 1 to allow your other units a chance to move up.
Breng77 wrote: So far my pain boyz have done more killing than healing or saving. I think that they are probably better with multi-wound models, but I have not been super impressed with them.
KFF meks are better for vehicle heavy lists than they are for mobs, it is easier to cover more units, and you typically get shot by more high AP weapons, so getting a 5++ matters more when you are dropping from a 3+ or 4+ save, than it does when you improved from a 3+ save. Especially against AP 0 weapons, look at it this way, for every 6 AP 0 wounds the KFF saves 1 additional boy. I think the pain boy is a bit better for the Blobs than the KFF (because the blob can chain out to gain his buff, and against AP 0 the result is more or less the same out of the KFF (saves about 1 extra boy), and his buff works in combat.
mad doc with several weirdboy smiting isn't bad since he can heal one when needed and provide a chance to save vs mortal wounds. Hes also fairly resilent and decent in combat, but the its list dependent.
Dr.Duck wrote: Check out Wagon with supa kannon and deff rolla with bustas inside.
Its like 2D6 + 6 rokkets for 300ish.
Nice idea! The only thing is that those 2d6 shots dont get re-rolls against vehicles. So a Trukk with 12 TB's (or 10 and 2 bomb squigs that I usually take) Gets 12 shots guaranteed with re-rolls against vehicles. An average of roll of 2d6 is 6.5. Round up to 7 because WAAAGGHH! so thats 13 shots. One more shot on average, but no re-rolls. And only one max bomb squig. Although much tougher and more wounds than the trukk. I'm not trying to put a damper on your idea.. just another example on how orks get no cool toys. The regular stuff is most efficient.
Although, I think the Kill tank with burna boyz would be an interesting unit. Roll forward, blasting away, dump burnas, charge in, burnas flame on!
Levski wrote: Is the price of bikers relative to their combat effectiveness generally putting off people ?
Warbikers have first and foremost always been a shooting unit. They still are and their damage output is pretty impressive when they do shoot. A full mob can put 3-4 wounds on pretty much anything that's not a landraider.
Them being able to do a decent job when charging is just icing on the cake.
However, they die like flies to weapons that do two damage per shot, smite, plus anything with AP -1 or better also works well, so you pretty much get the survivability of two boyz for more than twice the points.
From that point of view the should be costed somewhere around 18-20 points, but not 27. At the current level your opponent can even point lascannons at them and still get his points pack.
Been reading this thread and have gotten some good ideas about what is/isn't pulling its weight in 8th
I'm playing in a league and wanted some input on my weapon choices and my spare units.
The general abstract list is as follows:
HQ Ghazzy (because, well yeah awesome)
Weirdboy for Da Jump (picking our powers)
Elites
Nob w Waaaagh Banner
Troops
30 Boyz
3x Big Shoota
Nob w PK
Troops
30 Boyz
3x Big Shoota
Nob w PK
Troops
30 Boyz
3x Big Shoota
Nob w PK
Troops
30 Boyz
3x Big Shoota
Nob w PK
Troops
30 Boyz
3x Big Shoota
Nob w PK
Then I have about 529 points to play around with.
I'm thinking of the following
Snikrot
8x Kommandoz
Nob with PK 2x Burnaz
5x Storm Boyz
Nob w Big Choppa
Deff Dredd
4x PK (also, based on the wording a Dredd w 4 Klaws appears to add +4 attacks, so 6 total, am I reading this correctly?)
Dakka Jet
6x Supa Shootaz (for flyers and picking off pesky Dev squads and similar)
What do you guys think? I have a lot of models to play around with so aside from Mek Gunz and Morka/Gorkaknaugts I can field almost any other unit in the game
I'm not feeling Lootaz, I just got board with them after 3.5 editions of the same thing. They're either amazing or terrible and usually the latter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit* Also, thoughts on all PK's for the Nobz? Thinking some Big Choppas save me a boat load of points, and S7 D2 is pretty good against most targets. S10 D3 is nice too but hitting on best 3's is going to be questionable I think.
I wouldn't put too much stock into PK Nobz hitting on 3s at best (usually 4s).
Last edition WS4 meant you hit on 4s against a large proportion of stuff, with the exceptions being Tau, Guard and Tyranids, with two of those folding in combat and the third resorting to Flyrant spam that WS4 may as well have been WS0, especially since the Job could be challenged by all those Hive Tyrants.
Vehicles were the only thing that WS4 Power Klaws were reliable against but Tankbustas and Meganobz did that for you.
My experience does not really let me judge the list above, but to drop in an other perspective, the model count is frightening. Recently I played a game with 90ish boyz and I think my opponent just hated me for that already. Moving around this 150 folks of yours would be a nuisance for me, and we will surely see lists with even higher numbers (like 30 gretchin added as a sixth troop to field the 9cp detachment). i hope the meta will lift up other strategies as well... (not to mention that I enjoy painting, but that is out of the line).
I have found that the pk is not mandatory on nobz in boyz blobs as they once were. I like how efficient and still Killy big choppa. That saves you 64 points! Plus the big choppa are more versatile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Snikrot is not worth it. Dakka jets are super efficient. Throw in two, some kommandos maybe an extra banner nob for coverage. Dread will get rocked by any anti armor as he would be your only armor.
PKs on sergeant nobs are a big waste of points. They can't trash vehicles on their own like they used to and squads that can take mass PKs can take killsaws. D3 damage for 25 points is BS.
And thank you Jid for reminding people that bikes are a shooting unit. It's been the case since at least 5th, not sure why everyone forgot.
I got alot of bikers and meganobz and would hope to make them work. Removing some arms from the meganobz and replacing them with killsawz so i got atlest 5 of those bad boyz. So if someone gets meganobz to work let me know.
I was so eager when i heard stromboyz maybe be worth something so i bought Zagstruk with the index book. I overestimated him a bit and charged a bloodthirster, didn't work out. Do you guys think it's worth to buy some stormboyz? I thinking atleast 20. Got 10 so far.
So!
here is my first 1500 list. Im pretty set on it; I want to try and squeeze a brigade into 1500 with walkers...
My theory is; that Orks will do well by weakening the enemy rather than outright killing units 1 at a time. To this effect my general tactic is going to be to use the majority of my CP up within the first couple turns; aiming to take big vehicles down to their lower stats.
So as the game continues dem humies may not realize it, but dey alredy ded
Here's my list;
Spoiler:
--------------------------------------
HQ Big Mek 55
grot oiler 4
59
So in order to minimize drops I will start all of the IC's inside the gorka. With that I have 9 drops. Which may still be too many to guarantee first turn against some lists. I have yet to find out. Starategy will be to teleport the grots in front of my giant ball of walker mash to screen, while the grot tanks basically suicide with their KMB's and fire into everything they can. The Meka provides the KFF save and the 3 meks sit in the centre of all the walkers repairing whatever they can. I couldnt quite fit as many kanz as I liked, the gorka is more expensive than i iniitally thought with all its guns. Grot tanks seem greatly costed. 120 for a 4 squad seems pretty great. we will see.
I dont believe I missed any points costings (god damn index stuff is so annoying to cost - im at work and cant use battlescribe).
The Klaw is a bit to expensive for boss nobs, the Big Choppa is way more point-efficient. The Klaw should be reserved for models with at least 4 base attacks or WS2+. My Warbosses has had their klaws returned to them.
So in order to minimize drops I will start all of the IC's inside the gorka. With that I have 9 drops. Which may still be too many to guarantee first turn against some lists. I have yet to find out. Starategy will be to teleport the grots in front of my giant ball of walker mash to screen, while the grot tanks basically suicide with their KMB's and fire into everything they can. The Meka provides the KFF save and the 3 meks sit in the centre of all the walkers repairing whatever they can. I couldnt quite fit as many kanz as I liked, the gorka is more expensive than i iniitally thought with all its guns. Grot tanks seem greatly costed. 120 for a 4 squad seems pretty great. we will see.
Grot tanks and kans have leadership issues, and you can only use the same stratagem once in each phase.
I really don't understand your list. The grots are supposed to screen your walkers against what? Being assaulted? Your walkers are a lot better in a fight than the grots, maybe you should have your walkers screening your grots instead. Or better yet, don't take any grots. They are awful and they suck and they are just not good at anything.
Edit: I just realized that the BW with supa shoota has Bs4 which is similar to that of 5+ with re-rolls.
What? Where are you reading this?
Arghhh. I'm a moron. I was looking back and forth at the kill tank which does have bs4 and got confused. I still think the kill tank with bursta kannon and a unit inside would be intesting. I'd rather pay the points and get something useful and fun.
Slaktur wrote: I got alot of bikers and meganobz and would hope to make them work. Removing some arms from the meganobz and replacing them with killsawz so i got atlest 5 of those bad boyz. So if someone gets meganobz to work let me know.
I was so eager when i heard stromboyz maybe be worth something so i bought Zagstruk with the index book. I overestimated him a bit and charged a bloodthirster, didn't work out. Do you guys think it's worth to buy some stormboyz? I thinking atleast 20. Got 10 so far.
lol that's awesome ya zagstruk is a bit expensive for a semi durable stormboy w a 2 hit pk. He does put out a bunch of str6 choppa hits which is nice. And He's decent in a list with several units of stormboys because he makes them all fearless and forces your opponent to kill everyone. And is a decent overwatch eating target.
I like stormboys however in practice they aren't doing what I hoped. I was looking for first turn charges and some anti air but unless my oppponent comes towards me my stormboys are taking at least 2 turns to enter assault. 12" movement 3-4advance and I'm still usually 9+ inches out for a charge attempt. And I find anything outside of 9" is to far an attempt. However I do like the fact stormboys are great at jumping from cover to cover gaining that extra +1 cover. Zag especially becomes decent at eating overwatch with his 3+ sv and 5+ fnp and 6 wounds. In this way I've been having decent success w msu stormboys w nobs w BC. But they still aren't performing as well as my basic boy blobs sooo I dunno. I'm still going to play with them because they are fun and decent and I'll get bored playing more then 120 boys in a list.
I really want to try the mekadread but I'll be buying the mega dread model to use for it cause it looks awesome and I'd love to see someone's result playing the big trakk w supa scorcha but I'll probably never buy the model.
Grot tanks and kans have leadership issues, and you can only use the same stratagem once in each phase.
I really don't understand your list. The grots are supposed to screen your walkers against what? Being assaulted? Your walkers are a lot better in a fight than the grots, maybe you should have your walkers screening your grots instead. Or better yet, don't take any grots. They are awful and they suck and they are just not good at anything.
Yes I can only use each stratagem once per phase, but i feel like there will be plenty of chances to use them.
Well considering being assaulted means striking second. If i go first, I move, advance and cant charge (I feel like the odds of getting a first turn charge aren't going to be high). I leave myself open to being assaulted first. Which means even with a counter-strike strat, I am going to probably lose a couple kanz before I can strike (if im facing an assault army, or I am going to get tied up if a shooty list throws a chaff unit at me), which is quite a lot of points and attacks lost.
By having cheap grots I have a few things when combined with the weirdboy;
I have a 10 man unit I can teleport onto objectives if I need to get an objective for maelstrom points
I have a unit I can teleport into a conga line to soak a charge - Also, if they assault a grot unit, wipe it, and consolidate into combat..... they cant strike me. I get to strike them. So basically a 30 point grot unit becomes a Counter-strike stratagem on steroids. If they dont consolidate, they get shot and charged on the following turn
A unit i can teleport to conga line and block a flank
A unit I can teleport and assault stuff with to tie it up
Basically I give myself options dependent on what I need at the time. I could drop the grots and the brigade and go full kanz wall. But that limits my playstyle to one. kanz rush. I don't like relying on a one-trick. Im not exactly going to be facing GT level opponents, they are likely to have something strong, but were not talking 3x stormravens in my meta. And finally, almost no one seems to have even tried grots. All they've done is math hammer and decided they suck. Sure the AM conscripts are better in almost all respects. But conscripts cant be teleported at will. Before everyone was math hammering and saying deffcoptas with rokkits is the best way forward, but after reading like 2-3 battle reports most people have said that either they died instantly or that they were too many points for what they did and are now looking at KMB and BS versions. I just like to keep my opponents on their toes and play funky lists with weird styles
Frozocrone wrote: I wouldn't put too much stock into PK Nobz hitting on 3s at best (usually 4s).
Last edition WS4 meant you hit on 4s against a large proportion of stuff, with the exceptions being Tau, Guard and Tyranids, with two of those folding in combat and the third resorting to Flyrant spam that WS4 may as well have been WS0, especially since the Job could be challenged by all those Hive Tyrants.
Vehicles were the only thing that WS4 Power Klaws were reliable against but Tankbustas and Meganobz did that for you.
While I agree with your numbers, I disagree with the conclusion.
Previously, against a squad of MEQ a Nob would have 4 attacks S9 hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, no save. This means he would kill 1.66 Marines on average - usually the nob would kill just as much as the entire mob.
Right now, he gets 3 attacks on the charge, still wounds on 2+, but now there is a 6+ save, resulting on about 1.04 dead marines.
In addition to vehicles being harder to hit, you no longer hit vehicles on rear armor (usually 2+ to pen), but wound them on 3+, having 83.33% chance of doing d3 damage on average without any chance of taking out the vehicle in a single pen.
The chance of the nob doing no damage at all is as high as 27.82% against MEQ and 37.67% against vehicles with 3+ save, which is IMHO too high for a 25 point weapon you are only going to be using two or three times per game.
Last but not least, there is no longer a need to win combat. If you kill two honor guard models and they kill 5 boyz back, you will no longer get run down or have half your mob explode because of fearless, mob rule or other silly penalties for trading 120 points for 30.
The big choppa on the other hand got better due to having a meaningful AP value, killing .66 marines on average and having a chance of 66.66%/50%/33.33% to deal 2 damage to T6/T7/T8 vehicles. So, unless fighting T8 or higher it's at least half as good as the PK with costing slightly more than a third the points. Against T8 it still does roughly the same damage per point spent. From a pure points perspective it strictly more efficient than a klaw.
The second part is that the nob no longer needs to do all the killing. As you take no casualties before striking and hitting on 3+, every choppa boy in combat will kill .33 MEQ and have a 22% chance to damage a vehicle or monstrous creatures with T7 or lower (which includes all the walkers that boyz were unable to harm previously). So, 5 boyz pretty much outperform the PK now (30 points) while adding wounds and leadership to the mob.
TL;DR: PK is less point efficient than the BC and it can no longer handle any threats that boyz can't handle themselves. Obviously a mob with PK will always be stronger than a mob with BC, but in my opinion it's no longer worth the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: So we should have them move and shoot, avoiding assault? Is that really the best way to utilize them? Maybe move and shoot, charging a weakened unit?
If you want to use them, they are best at picking off units backfield units and light vehicles. Things like whirlwinds, razorbacks, land speeders and space marine bikes simply break under the weight of all those shots. In my experience bikers fail hard when shooting units with good saves, like scouts in cover, centurions or termintors.
As for charge target, I charged whatever got me closer to the backfield or used their charge to prevent things from shooting (like that whirlwind with the S7 2 Damage shots). I'd stay away from anything that can actually beat them in combat or has weapons that do more than 1 damage. Don't even think about engaging space marine characters or dreads, gun them down and charge someone else.
TL;DR: PK is less point efficient than the BC and it can no longer handle any threats that boyz can't handle themselves. Obviously a mob with PK will always be stronger than a mob with BC, but in my opinion it's no longer worth the points.
I still prefer pk on nobz for footslogas when i have points. And it's because hordes really lack ways of effectively dealing with tough t8+ stuff. While choppas and bigchoppas are allready enough to tickle anything t7 and lower, t8 is really problematic for us. And having played with footsloggas, i've got a feeling that this few anti-tank units orks have don't really fit all that well in footslogging lists. I'm not sure yet but it seems that the best way of dealing with tough vehicles for ork hordes is...simply to get as many buffed boyz as possible. And all the help we can master from klaw nob leaders, bosses and whatnot.
I dunno, throwing 100+ dice at a vehicle with 3's/2's to hit then needing 5's/6's to go through, you should be able to deal with most vehicles with just choppa boyz alone. Anyone have experience with this yet?
30 Boyz took 12 wounds off a ~13 wound Wave Serpent in my battle today, easily finished off with some Tankbustas. That's with a Big Choppa Nob. Took a few rounds to kill a Wraithlord though.
More Dakka wrote: I dunno, throwing 100+ dice at a vehicle with 3's/2's to hit then needing 5's/6's to go through, you should be able to deal with most vehicles with just choppa boyz alone. Anyone have experience with this yet?
100 attacks at an imperial knight is around 3-4 wounds. And he has 24. So, it's gona take you some time to kill it. 3 klaw attacks would just add 1-2 more wounds but it's at least something and >2 times more than a bigchoppa. Also, a klaw benefits from buffs much better in this case.
Save the klaws for meganobz. Add a few killsawa and jump them into the knight. Save the 16 points per boyz mob and get buff characters with those savings. Profit.
TL;DR: PK is less point efficient than the BC and it can no longer handle any threats that boyz can't handle themselves. Obviously a mob with PK will always be stronger than a mob with BC, but in my opinion it's no longer worth the points.
I still prefer pk on nobz for footslogas when i have points. And it's because hordes really lack ways of effectively dealing with tough t8+ stuff. While choppas and bigchoppas are allready enough to tickle anything t7 and lower, t8 is really problematic for us. And having played with footsloggas, i've got a feeling that this few anti-tank units orks have don't really fit all that well in footslogging lists.
I agree, but the klaw is terrible at tackling those units as well. You have a chance of almost 40% to completely miss those T8 vehicles, and you need at least four or five successful hits to even take them down You are basically spending a lot of points to suck slightly less at something.
The biggest advantage I see of the Big Choppa (for the price) is the static D2, while you're getting a better chance to hit, wounding most vehicles on 4s-5s and then getting a guaranteed 2 damage, vs, as has been pointed out, a lot harder time hitting with the Klaw then typically wounding on 3's for a chance at doing 1 more damage or 1 less.
Jidmah wrote: You are basically spending a lot of points to suck slightly less at something.
That's correct. But vehicles are everywhere - what else can we do.
Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the only answer we have for vehicles at the moment. Lootas also work well. Last game opponent charged an empty rhino into my full blob of boyz. I da jumped them right out of combat so fast lol. Blew that thing up with my tankbustas and smite. I also wonder if the fireworks rules for reinforced ram will carry over into our codex. On the charge..+2 star and d3 mortal wounds would be dope!
It's pretty clear that footslogging Nobz squads with Max ammo runts supported with a Painboy, KFF, Warpath, and da jump and bubble wrapped with Boyz is the most efficient army construction archetype to me. The nobs get a mix of Big Choppas and Killsaws to handle the armor problem Orks have. Just send in Boyz when your target is softer. Take about 6 weirdboyz with 3 of each power for redundancy; their smites are really good when you aren't casting the kill combo; they also completely handle the flyers problem through auto hitting mortal wounds.
More Dakka wrote: I dunno, throwing 100+ dice at a vehicle with 3's/2's to hit then needing 5's/6's to go through, you should be able to deal with most vehicles with just choppa boyz alone. Anyone have experience with this yet?
100 attacks at an imperial knight is around 3-4 wounds. And he has 24. So, it's gona take you some time to kill it. 3 klaw attacks would just add 1-2 more wounds but it's at least something and >2 times more than a bigchoppa. Also, a klaw benefits from buffs much better in this case.
This is where smite is really good. Smite does not solve the flyer problem, but if you have grotsnik and a handfull of weirdboyz those knights will go down eventually. And weirdboyz will fit into a foot army really well, unlike tankbustas and manz.
Manz are awesome in a foot army. Warpath them and jump them and toss them straight at the enemy. If they make the charge..dope. If not they are tough enough to weather enemy fire
So I made a list recently featuring 6 units of Kommandos each with 1 big choppa nob and 2 burnas. Anyone have any thoughts on kommandos? I think having 6 of those in the enemies face alongside a "Da jump!"ed blob of 30 boyz would work really for clogging up the enemy with bodies to allow the rest of the horde to advance.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So I made a list recently featuring 6 units of Kommandos each with 1 big choppa nob and 2 burnas. Anyone have any thoughts on kommandos? I think having 6 of those in the enemies face alongside a "Da jump!"ed blob of 30 boyz would work really for clogging up the enemy with bodies to allow the rest of the horde to advance.
I haven't had success with them yet. Usually then end up piling in to some other combat. I haven't done enough maelstrom games yet but I think they would obviously shine there.
I was thinking about taking a bunch of bare minimum choppa kommandos and just use them for objective grabbers. Perhaps it would be good to take 6, in case they swarm near an enemy who has 5, just to get the cheap score
I have Snikrot and 5 fw komnando upgraded boys, and I'm still waiting on an order from my flgs for about 2 months on komnandos that have been sold out on gw website forever. I have 6 burnas and 5 big choppa nobs. So all in all I can eventually field 3 units of 5 komnandos w 2 burnas each.
Long story short I'm worried about the viability of kommandos since if the advanced terrain rules become standard play fare this can seriously mess them up. Infiltrating them into cover and then getting screwed trying to charge from cover means I'll need an 11" charge and that's not going to happen often. Or I get lucky and my opponent leaves me some ruins I can deploy within. Or I deploy in the open and just eat overwatch with 5 boys w a 6+ sv.
Honestly the only way I see them viable is deploying in cover and getting their 4+ sv so they can make a 9in charge and survive overwatch. And I think they will work well other units in your opponents face like a blob of mega nobs or 30 da jump boys. Because if your opponent is wasting shots into a 45pt unit w 4+ saves. He's not shorting something else.
Personally I don't think snikrot is worth the cost. He either needs to add +1 to cover saves of kommandos within 6in or give them -1 to hit ability. But reroll 1s in combat isn't going to help them get into combat.
A wierdboy'z smite will statistically deal around 2 wounds on d3 and 3.5 on d6. While 60 pt of choppa boyz buffed with +1 attack and WAAAGH banner will deal around 1.85 against t8 3+.
Probably the combination of a mass of boyz, wierdboyz, buff characters like ghaz and banner nobz and pk on nob leaders might be enough for our tankhunting purposes. Untill we meet something like a couple vultures or stormravens.
Snikrot doesn't seem great, but MSU kommandos seem like a passable way to tie up things like HWTs and Fire Warriors to allow you a few turns to deal with any vehicles unopposed. You're not going to kill anything but you'll be able to take something out of the fight for a while. Still, you might as well put points into something that'll kill them instead.
Kommandoes are a great tool for the modest amount of points they cost. As they can now arrive whenever they want and get 2 free burnas and a free nob for 1 more wound and ld, they can easilly try to help the front - a re-rollable 9' charge will succeed every second time - or just get on remote points you need to score.
I'd not rush putting kommandoes on board asap but use them when the opportunity presents itself.
I love min units of kommandos and I'm currently running 3-5 units of them. All with a nob and two burnas.
I basically play with vehicles, no footsloggers (with the exception of a single mob of 30 boyz + teleporting weirdboy sometimes), and kommandos' role is to mess the opponent's deployment, movement, shooting and give pressure to the enemy. Eventually they can camp on objectives that are far from the action.
They're not there to kill a lot of stuff, they just help the rest of the army that is advancing. Even if they stay in reserve.
With teleporting footsloggers they're even better as they compete to absorb the anti infantry firepower.
Not sure about snikrot, he's one of my favorite models, but in my lists ghaz and a biker mek with KFF always join the party and I tipycally end up with zhad or a weirdboy to complete the required HQ section (I usually need 3 of them), maybe I can give him a try.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Save the klaws for meganobz. Add a few killsawa and jump them into the knight. Save the 16 points per boyz mob and get buff characters with those savings. Profit.
there is something to be said about having a 30 boy blob and a single pk nob that unless you snipe out will be there swinging away until the entire unit is destroyed. Don't forget green tide buff, warpath, and ghaz ability and nob w banner all help the pk nob. 4+ to hit sucks... still it's going to hit a few times before the games over.
Disembarking from a transport specifies "within" 3" rather than "wholly within" 3". Given the clarification in their FAQ, that gives Boyz almost an extra full 1" of range when disembarking from a vehicle, since they only havie to be touching that 3" bubble rather than having the entire model inside it. Anyone else interpret the RAW that way?
wtwlf123 wrote: Disembarking from a transport specifies "within" 3" rather than "wholly within" 3". Given the clarification in their FAQ, that gives Boyz almost an extra full 1" of range when disembarking from a vehicle, since they only havie to be touching that 3" bubble rather than having the entire model inside it. Anyone else interpret the RAW that way?
That's right. And larger models like meganobz and megabosses get even further. Though, they usually move 1' less.
I like using komanndos in conjunction with deffkoptas. Combined with a big da jump shoota boy squad can throw a lot of units into their deployment zone turn one.
Deffkoptas soaks overwatch the kommandos don't want a taste of.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Save the klaws for meganobz. Add a few killsawa and jump them into the knight. Save the 16 points per boyz mob and get buff characters with those savings. Profit.
there is something to be said about having a 30 boy blob and a single pk nob that unless you snipe out will be there swinging away until the entire unit is destroyed. Don't forget green tide buff, warpath, and ghaz ability and nob w banner all help the pk nob. 4+ to hit sucks... still it's going to hit a few times before the games over.
You make an excellent to point. In one of my games, the nob of a boyz mob had more attacks than the warboss he was fighting along side
Jidmah wrote: You are basically spending a lot of points to suck slightly less at something.
That's correct. But vehicles are everywhere - what else can we do.
But as my math showed, klaws aren't good against vehicles any more. You might as well arm all your nobz with combi-rokkits for the same reason.
Let's compare them to an equivalent point cost of choppaboyz and take buffs into consideration.
VS t8 3+ save
1 PK nob - 31 pts:
Hitting on 4+: with 3 attacks - 1.67; with 4 attacks - 2.22; with 5 attacks - 2.78; with 6 attacks - 3.33
Hitting on 3+: with 3 attacks - 2.22; with 4 attacks - 2.96; with 5 attacks - 3.70; with 6 attacks - 4.44
5 Choppaboyz - 30 pts:
Hitting on 3+: with 20 attacks - 0.74; with 25 attacks - 0.93; with 30 attacks - 1.11; with 35 attacks - 1.30
Hitting on 2+: with 20 attacks - 0.93; with 25 attacks - 1.16; with 30 attacks - 1.39; with 35 attacks - 1.62
VS t8 2+ save
1 PK nob - 31 pts:
Hitting on 4+: with 3 attacks - 1.33; with 4 attacks - 1.78; with 5 attacks - 2.22; with 6 attacks - 2.67
Hitting on 3+: with 3 attacks - 1.78; with 4 attacks - 2.37; with 5 attacks - 2.96; with 6 attacks - 3.56
5 Choppaboyz - 30 pts:
Hitting on 3+: with 20 attacks - 0.37; with 25 attacks - 0.46; with 30 attacks - 0.55; with 35 attacks - 0.65
Hitting on 2+: with 20 attacks - 0.46; with 25 attacks - 0.58; with 30 attacks - 0.69; with 35 attacks - 0.81
So, as we see, a pk nob is still underwhelming vs t8 stuff but he's at worst 2.25 times and at best 4.40 times less crappy than an equivalent pointcost of choppaboyz.
That's what i meant when i said that a pk nob is scaling with buffs better than the rest of the mob. And he concentrates power in one spot which means most of the time it's possible to get 100% of his damage output while you won't always get all 10 boyz into striking range. And that it's not even possible to add the damage of 10 boyz to the average performance of a mob because they simply won't have a place to fit in and won't be able to strike at all.
Mega nobs aren't as bad as people say either.
For example which do you think is better to mathematically buff with warpath and da jump and send into a tough vehicle like a leman Russ tank. T8, 3+ sv 30 boy shoots boy blob w a big choppa nob or
3 mega nobs w dual killsaws? Both cost exactly the same.
30 shoots boy is 6.29 wounds
3 mega nobs is 10 wounds
But the thing is the leman Russ is an ideal target for the mega nobs. It's 3+ sv without invul, it doesn't have a strong overwatch for assault, it's t8 which hurts str4 wounding and has 10+ wounds. The real question is why are you sending boy blobs into a Leman Russ or any tank? Sure they can eventually kill it but they will mathmamtically be better vs any other weaker target (t7, 4+ or worse sv, 5+ or better invul, or less than 10 wounds)
Point is I don't think pk in a boy blob is bad at all however I think the big choppa is much better for the targets a boy blob should be charging. Which is anything worse then a leman Russ. The big problem is orks don't have a lot of ways to efficiently deal with vehicles or flyers.
Outside of zhardsnark, smite spam, and to a degree 2x tanbustas in a transport unloading 2 squigs, 2 tank bombs, and 8+ rokkits from 18 or 6in (which is an average of 7.5-9 wounds to the same leman Russ from shooting with this 190pt unit).
We lack efficient anti vehicle.
VS t8 3+ save
1 PK nob - 31 pts:
Hitting on 4+: with 3 attacks - 1.67; with 4 attacks - 2.22; with 5 attacks - 2.78; with 6 attacks - 3.33
Hitting on 3+: with 3 attacks - 2.22; with 4 attacks - 2.96; with 5 attacks - 3.70; with 6 attacks - 4.44
<snip>
VS t8 2+ save
1 PK nob - 31 pts:
Hitting on 4+: with 3 attacks - 1.33; with 4 attacks - 1.78; with 5 attacks - 2.22; with 6 attacks - 2.67
Hitting on 3+: with 3 attacks - 1.78; with 4 attacks - 2.37; with 5 attacks - 2.96; with 6 attacks - 3.56
So if you have a banner nob, a warphead casting warpath, Ghazghkull Thrakka and more than 20 boyz in the nob, it will take 4 wounds of an enemy T8 vehicle it took at least two turns to reach. How is this even considered anti-tank?
In comparison, the big choppa nob with the same buffs would deal 1.66 wounds to the 3+ vehicle and 1.11 to the land raider.
So, as we see, a pk nob is still underwhelming vs t8 stuff but he's at worst 2.25 times and at best 4.40 times less crappy than an equivalent pointcost of choppaboyz.
They will still be unable to do anything about that T8 vehicle. Your math says a full mob buffed with 400+ points of buffs will still take two turns to kill a land raider, let alone a knight with its 5++ save on top of a metric ton of wounds. Which is already a pretty generous assumption, because you had to get your boyz and all your buffs to the vehicle in question and then charge it without taking any casualties. And, of course, you might just as well have Thrakka take care of the threat for you, since he is already within 6".
So let's say it took you two turns to reach your desired target (or the desired target to reach you) and let's assume you have at least the banner nob nearby and your mob is down to 25 boyz and a nob (because that's easy to calculate).
The mob will do 4.65 damage to a 3+ vehicle, a nob with PK will do 2.96, a nob with BC 1.11, a nob with slugga and choppa .93
So the best you can do with 250+ points invested in boyz is to fail to kill a LRBT.
So why buy a 25 upgrade that changes absolutely nothing about that?
That's what i meant when i said that a pk nob is scaling with buffs better than the rest of the mob. And he concentrates power in one spot which means most of the time it's possible to get 100% of his damage output while you won't always get all 10 boyz into striking range. And that it's not even possible to add the damage of 10 boyz to the average performance of a mob because they simply won't have a place to fit in and won't be able to strike at all.
Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice. Neither the PK nor the boyz are good at killing T8 models, and the PK isn't even that great at killing anything else, compared to the BC.
When buying a PK to fight T8, you're basically equipping basilisks for close combat.
Also, one of the golden ork rules that have been true since 4th (maybe even longer, can't tell) says: Don't buy upgrades that make something mediocre at something, only buy upgrades that make something great at doing its job.
All the advatages PK has over BC;
-wounds T4/5 on 2, but -1WS puts it even with BC -wounds T7 on 3, but -1 WS puts it even with BC -wounds T8 on 3
-+1AP, effectively no save for 4+ Armor
This is what we pay 14 more points for :/
On a Warboss's Str6, PK can do;
-wounds t5/6 on 2, but -1WS puts it's output the same as BC -wounds t8 on 3, but -1WS puts it's output even with BC -+1AP, denying saves to 4+.
It is argueable that the PK is crap on the Warboss. It takes a S8+ attribute to justify it's use vs t8 without factoring the extra AP. In the hands of a Nob a PK is worse vs. T6 then a BC and in the hands of a warboss actually is worse vs. T7 (without factoring +1AP). T7 makes up a lot of medium vehicles guys.
I was thinking about a powerklaw on my warboss, maybe a BC is better. I think dual killsaws are the only meganob loadout, I think the gorkanaught is the only thing that should take a powerklaw. Except for maybe a S4 statline who would suddenly wound t7 on 3 when a Big Choppa would be 5.
Unless you can plan to always have the banner modifier nearby for models that have a 2+ WS, it is looking grim for the klaw. I've said it in more colorful words elsewhere, powerklaws are kinda bad now. They should have been d6 damage or maybe just a flat 3 damage.
Seems like edition Big Choppa, I know I always liked those bitz in the nob box
EDIT, wow Power Stabbas in Nob squads have a place vs. T8 when compared to PK as well :/
There are two options really:
a) If you want to keep it as the more expensive, but stronger version of the BC, then it needs to either go down in points to become more efficient or lose the negative hit modifier to become more reliable.
b) If it is supposed to back to its old role of killing stuff boyz can't handle, it needs to do more damage, like d6 or fixed 3.
Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.
Info on the event: - 2K points - He who deploys 1st goes 1st. - Can use CP to reroll seize - 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions. - It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games - The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.
The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:
Spoiler:
Big Guns Gorkanaunt <- Nobz + Big Mek Killa Kans Trukk <- Kommandos + Kommandos + Big Mek + Nob w/ Banner Trukk <- Tankbustas Trukk <- Tankbustas
Some other things I like about it:
Spoiler:
- I can deep strike the kommandos, and put the Nobz in the trukk if I'm not worried about having too many drops. - Light Mech spam to hopefully make it hard for opponents to deal with. - Lobbas (I think!) should be good at handling screen units, and are going to be as annoying as can be to get all of the Kill points off of. - The Gorkanaut is hopefully something that will draw my opponent's attention to let my kans, and trukks live for a bit. - 2 Big meks for extra repair and KFF coverage. I'll probably be deploying them to cover my trukks most of the time. - Kommandos get cheap nobz and burnas.
Now some questions: 1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on? 2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead? 2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it. 3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1? 4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry? 5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility. 6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream? 7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list? 7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside? 8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?
Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.
Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?
When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.
tag8833 wrote: Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.
Info on the event:
- 2K points
- He who deploys 1st goes 1st.
- Can use CP to reroll seize
- 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions.
- It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games
- The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.
The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:
Spoiler:
Big Guns
Gorkanaunt <- Nobz + Big Mek
Killa Kans
Trukk <- Kommandos + Kommandos + Big Mek + Nob w/ Banner
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Some other things I like about it:
Spoiler:
- I can deep strike the kommandos, and put the Nobz in the trukk if I'm not worried about having too many drops.
- Light Mech spam to hopefully make it hard for opponents to deal with.
- Lobbas (I think!) should be good at handling screen units, and are going to be as annoying as can be to get all of the Kill points off of.
- The Gorkanaut is hopefully something that will draw my opponent's attention to let my kans, and trukks live for a bit.
- 2 Big meks for extra repair and KFF coverage. I'll probably be deploying them to cover my trukks most of the time.
- Kommandos get cheap nobz and burnas.
Now some questions:
1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on?
2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead?
2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it.
3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1?
4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry?
5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility.
6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream?
7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list?
7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside?
8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?
1.) Not if you want to use Kans, especially a big squad. They need the +1 to hit in close combat, they are super ineffective hitting on a 5+
2.)Maybe it depends on how you are deploying/moving, you don't really have very much Mek outside of the trukks so it seems mostly to give you the KFF save
3.) Yes, he is your only big vehicle threat so will likely eat all your opponents heavy multiple damage weapons. I've been running mine with a battlewagon of mega nobz, 2 Deff Dreads and 4 Kanz and he still eats a lot of fire power.
4.) Have not really played them yet so cannot say, but they look good on paper
5.) There are upsides and downsides to both, kill points being the obvious downside, being able to split up on foot being the obvious upsdie.
6.) I have not been impressed with mine so far, they seem like they should be better on paper, they don't put out enough firepower though (6 missiles for 378 points is pretty terrible.) and they are so-so in combat, they hit hard, when they hit, but only really against lower end targets that they wound on 2s and 3s (so T7 and below), and they need a banner to even do that well without it against anything above T4 they average 5.33 wounds (15 damage) per round of combat assuming no saves. Which isn't awful, but for their cost isn't great either unless you are hitting transports and such.
7.) not sure what would benefit you really
8.) Depends on what you are most comfortable running/would enjoy most.
tag8833 wrote: Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.
Info on the event:
- 2K points
- He who deploys 1st goes 1st.
- Can use CP to reroll seize
- 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions.
- It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games
- The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.
The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:
Spoiler:
Big Guns
Gorkanaunt <- Nobz + Big Mek
Killa Kans
Trukk <- Kommandos + Kommandos + Big Mek + Nob w/ Banner
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Some other things I like about it:
Spoiler:
- I can deep strike the kommandos, and put the Nobz in the trukk if I'm not worried about having too many drops.
- Light Mech spam to hopefully make it hard for opponents to deal with.
- Lobbas (I think!) should be good at handling screen units, and are going to be as annoying as can be to get all of the Kill points off of.
- The Gorkanaut is hopefully something that will draw my opponent's attention to let my kans, and trukks live for a bit.
- 2 Big meks for extra repair and KFF coverage. I'll probably be deploying them to cover my trukks most of the time.
- Kommandos get cheap nobz and burnas.
Now some questions:
1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on?
2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead?
2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it.
3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1?
4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry?
5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility.
6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream?
7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list?
7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside?
8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?
Dont take big guns to a torney, 5 lobbas are 10 heavy support kill points!
I wouldnt say DONT TAKE the guns.. but just understand that they are 10 kill points. BUT if someone drops a unit in the back and takes out a couple grots or a gun, you have time to react. Thats why I would leave the kommandos in hiding. It gives you options. You can help fight off whatever is targeting the guns, or drop on an objective.
Also, [insert ron burgundy meme here] lobbas were a bad choice! I just dont see them being useful.. especially against a meta you described as having "big stuff"
koooaei wrote: Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down?
I don't know, high five my allies because and imperial guard player shut down his own shooting?
First of all, don't get multi-charged by a tank especially not with three mobs at once, how is that even possible without your cooperation? There are simple ways to prevent this through proper positioning or keeping enough distance between you and the russ to make the charge difficult enough to pull off. If you can't help it, keep a warboss near a position where you cannot avoid multi-charges. If he is whithin 3" of the russ after it charged, he gets to pile in that combat and punch the tank without danger of retaliation. Also works with banner nob, weird boy, pain boyz and big meks. Since the buff characters tend to hang out together, multiple character might be able to do a heroic intervention.
Second, just leave the tank locked in combat with your 189 point unit and wait till dies after two or three rounds of combat. Which is about the same you'd do with a PK, except your chances of breaking out after two rounds of combat is slightly higher.
The leman russ is not tarpitting your boyz, your boyz are tarpitting the leman russ.
When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.
3 PK nobz and their respective units are 615 points plus 62 points of weirboy and probably another 79 for the banner nob.
Using all that to take down what's best case is a demolisher with lacannon and multimelta sponsons (236 points) is a major playing error that will probably cost you the game, because a third of your army is fighting a single shooting unit.
You should just be charging your warboss, a dread, a nobz unit or tank bustaz in there to smash the tank, and not waste hundreds of points of boyz to fight something they are not meant to kill.
joshua.gray.williams wrote: tank bustas in small groups allows for extra grenade throws from the trucks. I am running 5 man squads. plus an extra free nob.
Sold. Good points I hadn't considered.
So that makes me think I should add another HQ in place of the nob with the banner so that I can get an extra CP. Then again, Nob w/ banner is pretty enticing.
What do you guys think of a Weirdboy w/ Warpath vs a Nob w/ Banner? I like the longer range (cast before charge), and for most Orks the effective buff is better or about the same, but it can fail, especially with a low model count list like mine. Weirdboy also gets Smite which is really good.
Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.
I do believe I was saying Orkz would suck again as soon as the rules got leaked and I had to face a lot of flak for saying that. Now after a month people are starting to wake up.
The thing that boggles the mind though is that by strictly looking at the rules for orkz and other factions I was easily able to determine that Orkz would be crap again and yet GW and all those play testers couldn't figure that out. Reece from FLG is probably my favorite person in the world right now because it shows
A: how little he actually knows what he is talking about
or
B: That GW told him what he was and was not allowed to say.
Killa Kanz are going to be great and Stompa is amazing....Next thing he is going to show us how the Kill Kannon on Battlewagonz is totally worth taking.
On a related note to this, someone a few pages ago was mentioning Warbikers and how they are strictly a shooting unit. I agree completely. Boyz get 3 attacks on average (choppa) at S4, thats fine in foot slogging lists because you can field 30 of them and they get +1 from 20+ models. On bikes though? for the same cost as 30 boyz on foot you can field slightly less then 7 Warbikes. Lets say you take a big choppa or something on the boyz and make it 7 Warbikes though.
Those 7 Warbikes are about twice as fast as Boyz (boyz add in advance) and they have 50% longer range gunz that shoot 6 shots each. So 7 will net you 42 shots at S5 with no AP value. This will get you about 14hits on average and against T4 thats about 9-10 wounds. Not terrible. Now if you charge that unit of 7 you will get a grand total of 21 attacks for 14 hits and 7 wounds against T4.
For that same price you can field 29boyz and the Big Choppa Nob. They can put out limited dakka that is barely worth shooting and if you want to charge a far unit its better NOT shooting so your opponent doesnt grab from the front and add another inch or so to the charge. BUT when you do charge those 29 boyz and Nob put out a tremendous amount of choppiness. 29Boyz = 116 attacks hitting on 3s so about 77 hits and against T4 thats about 39wounds.
boyz are 6pts for T4 1Wound and 6+ save
Warbikers are 27 Pts for T5 2 Wounds and 4+ save and a Twin Dakkagun.
Keep your warbikers out of close combat and I really hate saying this because i own over 30 Bikerz, don't bring them if you don't have to. They are no longer worth taking due to the new Universal rules and the change in their stats. 4+ armor isn't worth as much these days, which is why they gave it to Nobz for free now.
Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies.
Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.
Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.
joshua.gray.williams wrote: tank bustas in small groups allows for extra grenade throws from the trucks. I am running 5 man squads. plus an extra free nob.
Sold. Good points I hadn't considered.
So that makes me think I should add another HQ in place of the nob with the banner so that I can get an extra CP. Then again, Nob w/ banner is pretty enticing.
What do you guys think of a Weirdboy w/ Warpath vs a Nob w/ Banner? I like the longer range (cast before charge), and for most Orks the effective buff is better or about the same, but it can fail, especially with a low model count list like mine. Weirdboy also gets Smite which is really good.
The effectiveness of the buffs depends on the unit which you use them. Units with more attacks benefit more from the +1 to hit than they do the extra attack (if you have 4 attacks or more in a unit +1 to hit from 3+ to 2+ is better, if you hit on a 4+ the +1 to hit is better if you have more than 3 attacks, if you hit on 5+ 2 or more attacks the +1 is better). The nob also can effect multiple units. So for Kanz or the Gorkanaut the banner is a better buff, for boyz the Weird boy is generally better. That said unless you are buffing the weirdboy you only get the power off ~60% of the time.
That said smite is extremely good. So it could go either way. You could also drop a kan for the weird boy which might be the better choice.
3 PK nobz and their respective units are 615 points
Noone's forcing your whole squad to stick around. You can even not move some of the models or move them towards other squads, so it's not like you're wasting all the boyz.
Also...what else am i going to get for 48 pts - the difference between 3 pk and 3 bc nobz - that's gona be that much better?
So, i'm still taking pk just in case. They're no longer mandatory but i think they're not useless either.
Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.
Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?
When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.
I want to expand on this. I think a savvy player will be capable to greatly slow down a footslogging list by throwing empty, drifting rhinos at our boyz.
What do you guys think of putting 3 rokkits in each boyz squad as a deterrant to this?
Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.
Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?
When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.
I want to expand on this. I think a savvy player will be capable to greatly slow down a footslogging list by throwing empty, drifting rhinos at our boyz.
What do you guys think of putting 3 rokkits in each boyz squad as a deterrant to this?
I don't think it is very effective, I mean you will hit with 1/3 during shooting (assuming you don't run), and once every other overwatch. In neither case do you kill the rhino. Even in the unlikely event you hit and wound with everything it still won't die. At the cost of 36 points per boyz squad (assuming no shooting upgrades taken) doesn't seem worth it. That is the cost of 6 boyz. So if you had 3 squads with rokkits you could have 18 additional models (or 9 Kommandos)
Are people forgetting or just not acknowledging you can Da Jump right out of combat if someone lobs a rhino into a full/decent sized mob? And there is no way the weirdboy gets taken out with careful placement. Nobody to jump? Ok! smite with +2-3 casting it is.
Happened last game to me. He tossed a rhinoi into a 30man mob. He did nothing. I did a handful of wounds to the rhino in combat. I chuckled. I jumped the boyz out of combat and blasted his ass with my tank bustas. Done and done. I'm finding it hard to think of a reason to not bring 3 weirdboys for this reason. Two with Da jump and one with warpath. Sure you can only jump one unit.. but to have the options of choosing the right unit and possibly jump himself late game onto a far away objective.
And if 'eadbanger worked with a longer range I would be taking 3-4 weirdboys. If I could Jump a weirdboy with 'eadbanger and position it right to start sniping characters man o man would that be hilarious. But eadbanger says WITHIN 9" and jump you have be OUTSIDE 9". I would laugh my ass off if I could eadbang bobbyG right off the board because my opponent got sloppy with placement.
And why oh why would you want to run MSU tankbustas for an extrta grenade shot?? Why would you want to get that close with tankbustas when they have 2 foot range? In a trukk they have high mobility to dodge behind los blocking terrain and track down juicy targets? I'd rather manuever around the battlefield then trying to take advantage of an extra d3 wounds.
Edit: Disregard that last paragraph. I'm an idiot.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Are people forgetting or just not acknowledging you can Da Jump right out of combat if someone lobs a rhino into a full/decent sized mob? And there is no way the weirdboy gets taken out with careful placement. Nobody to jump? Ok! smite with +2-3 casting it is.
Happened last game to me. He tossed a rhinoi into a 30man mob. He did nothing. I did a handful of wounds to the rhino in combat. I chuckled. I jumped the boyz out of combat and blasted his ass with my tank bustas. Done and done. I'm finding it hard to think of a reason to not bring 3 weirdboys for this reason. Two with Da jump and one with warpath. Sure you can only jump one unit.. but to have the options of choosing the right unit and possibly jump himself late game onto a far away objective.
And if 'eadbanger worked with a longer range I would be taking 3-4 weirdboys. If I could Jump a weirdboy with 'eadbanger and position it right to start sniping characters man o man would that be hilarious. But eadbanger says WITHIN 9" and jump you have be OUTSIDE 9". I would laugh my ass off if I could eadbang bobbyG right off the board because my opponent got sloppy with placement.
And why oh why would you want to run MSU tankbustas for an extrta grenade shot?? Why would you want to get that close with tankbustas when they have 2 foot range? In a trukk they have high mobility to dodge behind los blocking terrain and track down juicy targets? I'd rather manuever around the battlefield then trying to take advantage of an extra d3 wounds.
Ok I had no idea you could jump boyz of combat, that sounds awesome!
I think he means running two 5 man TB squads inside a truck though. So 10tb total with maybe 2 bsquigs.
When deepstriking are you guys shooting before the charge?
Something happened to me tonight: A clever tau player had arranged his kroot in a sort of a line with spikes on it. And as my shoota-boyz jumped in and opened fire, he simply took casualties from the front, making the charge distance a full inch higher. And the charge subsequently failed. Maybe I should work more on my positioning when jumping in. I also think that I need to remove those shootas from my boyz, and give them choppas+sluggas. Choppas are simply better.
What many people seem to oversee are the flexibility and many other advantages we Orks have.
Sure, we can`t spam a Gulliman circle, we don´t have Lasercannons and all the fancy other stuff but we don´t need it either.
We have ass cheap units, we can spam Detachments for CP´s, we can go for footlogging, Speed-Orks, Walkers, basicly every kind of build we like.
Even our shooting units fight better in CC than the average Marine und we are still the best in drowning the enemy in buckets full of dices.
For myself i see us Orks as an allrounder army which grows it´s efficiency with synergies and the different units working together - now in times of 8th edition more than ever.
And unlike other armies the true value of our stuff depends less on the demage output.
For example 5 SM Devastors with LasCa`s: They will kill tanks pretty good, but suck at close combat, cant handle hordes, are bad at screening and 5LP are easy taken out.
A mob of Boyz with rokkits and clawboss / choppaboss will do all of the stuff much better but won´t handle tanks that well.
Mathhammer says they suck but your Rokkits will hit from time to time and the boss will also wound / kill some stuff.
And the boys can still kill the enemys infantry, hold markers, block the enemys movement - you get the point.
And your mob doesn´t need the kill the tank alone, for that you have other units. Weaken the tank and then kill it.
But it´s important to look at the game and units as a total - mathhammer is not everything.
Especially with all the nasty stuff you can do with the movement / charges / consolidation - which gives uns many possibilitys to fully use the potential of our units.
Example: 30er Mob with 3 rokkits, some shootas and nob: Rokkits go for a massive tank to weaken it (D3 rocks!), shootas fire at something else like a MSU unit on a objektive marker, then you multicharge tank and infantry which gives every modell the perfect target. With charge move and consolidation you can surf around the charged units to get closer to the next victim / marker or pile into other units as well to deny them their shooting.
In addition you have the huge footprint of this unit and the modell count which will make it much easier for you to controll the table and hold objektives vs MSU / tank lists.
I miss Flash Gits here!
They have decent shooting with good BS, especially with ammorunts which also make them more durable vs multiple demage and they can profit from Badrukk for almost no points.
Da flashiest gits also hit hard in CC and there is nothing better then a full unit of them in a battlewagon with dakka. You can stick a unit of tank bustas with them if you like cause Badrukk sadly can`t buff them inside.
Or let them walk and a dok support them. With the ammo runts he will easily be worth his points.
Btw i also think he is still good, even if you stick him with boys. 2-3 rolls of 6 may be enough to keep the carging mob over 20 models and when the first morale losses kick in every saved boy saves another one because he improves the ld.
Not to mention his healing option and the chance to throw in some extra claw / saw attacks.
And using multiple buffs on large mobs makes him even better.
gungo wrote: Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies. Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.
Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.
You just proved my point while attempting to deny it. We have 1 build that is remotely competitive, and it won't stay that way for long MARK MY WORDS. As soon as people figure out that they can't bring Grav spam and automatically be competitive you are going to start seeing some better anti horde weapons (For SMs I don't know why they aren't bringing whirlewinds). And then the Horde play style is going to be done, just like Green tide worked as a gimmick for a few months before everyone figured out how easy it is to beat.
And beyond Boyz spam what do we have? Warbikers now aren't worth taking, Gretchin do the same thing as boyz but worse, Burnas and Flashgitz are garbage, Lootas are in the same place they were last edition, decent but not good enough, Meganobz took a nerf this edition, All of our flyers aren't competitive, Killakanz are still trash, Deff Dreadz are fun but impotent until they get into combat and even then its not impressive, Morkanaut? You could take a Big Mek with a KFF and some tank bustas for cheaper and still put out the same level of dakka, not to mention not killing yoursel with KMKs and KMBs, Big Gunz? I like the Kannon but that is about it, and Mek gunz? Dear god they hit that thing with the Nerf hammer HARD, what about the Stompa? 900+pts for a super heavy that doesn't have stomp, none of its gunz are worth mentioning and its CC abilities are CRAP for the points cost? Skorchas, Buggies and Trakkz are all in the same boat as well.
Our codex is hot garbage, you can pretend its not and give me excuses like synergy and buffs and what not, but, anything we can do, other codices can do better or for cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Grotrebel wrote: What many people seem to oversee are the flexibility and many other advantages we Orks have.
Sure, we can`t spam a Gulliman circle, we don´t have Lasercannons and all the fancy other stuff but we don´t need it either.
We have ass cheap units, we can spam Detachments for CP´s, we can go for footlogging, Speed-Orks, Walkers, basicly every kind of build we like. Even our shooting units fight better in CC than the average Marine und we are still the best in drowning the enemy in buckets full of dices.
For myself i see us Orks as an allrounder army which grows it´s efficiency with synergies and the different units working together - now in times of 8th edition more than ever. And unlike other armies the true value of our stuff depends less on the demage output.
For example 5 SM Devastors with LasCa`s: They will kill tanks pretty good, but suck at close combat, cant handle hordes, are bad at screening and 5LP are easy taken out. A mob of Boyz with rokkits and clawboss / choppaboss will do all of the stuff much better but won´t handle tanks that well. Mathhammer says they suck but your Rokkits will hit from time to time and the boss will also wound / kill some stuff. And the boys can still kill the enemys infantry, hold markers, block the enemys movement - you get the point.
And your mob doesn´t need the kill the tank alone, for that you have other units. Weaken the tank and then kill it.
But it´s important to look at the game and units as a total - mathhammer is not everything.
Especially with all the nasty stuff you can do with the movement / charges / consolidation - which gives uns many possibilitys to fully use the potential of our units.
Example: 30er Mob with 3 rokkits, some shootas and nob: Rokkits go for a massive tank to weaken it (D3 rocks!), shootas fire at something else like a MSU unit on a objektive marker, then you multicharge tank and infantry which gives every modell the perfect target. With charge move and consolidation you can surf around the charged units to get closer to the next victim / marker or pile into other units as well to deny them their shooting. In addition you have the huge footprint of this unit and the modell count which will make it much easier for you to controll the table and hold objektives vs MSU / tank lists.
I miss Flash Gits here! They have decent shooting with good BS, especially with ammorunts which also make them more durable vs multiple demage and they can profit from Badrukk for almost no points. Da flashiest gits also hit hard in CC and there is nothing better then a full unit of them in a battlewagon with dakka. You can stick a unit of tank bustas with them if you like cause Badrukk sadly can`t buff them inside.
Or let them walk and a dok support them. With the ammo runts he will easily be worth his points.
Btw i also think he is still good, even if you stick him with boys. 2-3 rolls of 6 may be enough to keep the carging mob over 20 models and when the first morale losses kick in every saved boy saves another one because he improves the ld. Not to mention his healing option and the chance to throw in some extra claw / saw attacks. And using multiple buffs on large mobs makes him even better.
Its called Specializing and for the longest time its been the mark of a bad unit. who gives a damn if Lootas have 2 attacks each? they are never going to use it and are paying points for CC abilities they don't need. I would gladly trade 1 of those attacks for +1 shots with the Deffgun. And the WS4? Same thing, drop it to WS2 but PLEASE give me BS3 or 4!
and our specialist units? Burna Boyz? D3 instead of D6 and only 2 attacks? utter trash. The only decent specialist unit we have really is Tankbustas which is why you see them spammed everywhere.
gungo wrote: Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies.
Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.
Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.
You just proved my point while attempting to deny it. We have 1 build that is remotely competitive, and it won't stay that way for long MARK MY WORDS. As soon as people figure out that they can't bring Grav spam and automatically be competitive you are going to start seeing some better anti horde weapons (For SMs I don't know why they aren't bringing whirlewinds). And then the Horde play style is going to be done, just like Green tide worked as a gimmick for a few months before everyone figured out how easy it is to beat.
And beyond Boyz spam what do we have? Warbikers now aren't worth taking, Gretchin do the same thing as boyz but worse, Burnas and Flashgitz are garbage, Lootas are in the same place they were last edition, decent but not good enough, Meganobz took a nerf this edition, All of our flyers aren't competitive, Killakanz are still trash, Deff Dreadz are fun but impotent until they get into combat and even then its not impressive, Morkanaut? You could take a Big Mek with a KFF and some tank bustas for cheaper and still put out the same level of dakka, not to mention not killing yoursel with KMKs and KMBs, Big Gunz? I like the Kannon but that is about it, and Mek gunz? Dear god they hit that thing with the Nerf hammer HARD, what about the Stompa? 900+pts for a super heavy that doesn't have stomp, none of its gunz are worth mentioning and its CC abilities are CRAP for the points cost? Skorchas, Buggies and Trakkz are all in the same boat as well.
Our codex is hot garbage, you can pretend its not and give me excuses like synergy and buffs and what not, but, anything we can do, other codices can do better or for cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Grotrebel wrote: What many people seem to oversee are the flexibility and many other advantages we Orks have.
Sure, we can`t spam a Gulliman circle, we don´t have Lasercannons and all the fancy other stuff but we don´t need it either.
We have ass cheap units, we can spam Detachments for CP´s, we can go for footlogging, Speed-Orks, Walkers, basicly every kind of build we like.
Even our shooting units fight better in CC than the average Marine und we are still the best in drowning the enemy in buckets full of dices.
For myself i see us Orks as an allrounder army which grows it´s efficiency with synergies and the different units working together - now in times of 8th edition more than ever.
And unlike other armies the true value of our stuff depends less on the demage output.
For example 5 SM Devastors with LasCa`s: They will kill tanks pretty good, but suck at close combat, cant handle hordes, are bad at screening and 5LP are easy taken out.
A mob of Boyz with rokkits and clawboss / choppaboss will do all of the stuff much better but won´t handle tanks that well.
Mathhammer says they suck but your Rokkits will hit from time to time and the boss will also wound / kill some stuff.
And the boys can still kill the enemys infantry, hold markers, block the enemys movement - you get the point.
And your mob doesn´t need the kill the tank alone, for that you have other units. Weaken the tank and then kill it.
But it´s important to look at the game and units as a total - mathhammer is not everything.
Especially with all the nasty stuff you can do with the movement / charges / consolidation - which gives uns many possibilitys to fully use the potential of our units.
Example: 30er Mob with 3 rokkits, some shootas and nob: Rokkits go for a massive tank to weaken it (D3 rocks!), shootas fire at something else like a MSU unit on a objektive marker, then you multicharge tank and infantry which gives every modell the perfect target. With charge move and consolidation you can surf around the charged units to get closer to the next victim / marker or pile into other units as well to deny them their shooting.
In addition you have the huge footprint of this unit and the modell count which will make it much easier for you to controll the table and hold objektives vs MSU / tank lists.
I miss Flash Gits here!
They have decent shooting with good BS, especially with ammorunts which also make them more durable vs multiple demage and they can profit from Badrukk for almost no points.
Da flashiest gits also hit hard in CC and there is nothing better then a full unit of them in a battlewagon with dakka. You can stick a unit of tank bustas with them if you like cause Badrukk sadly can`t buff them inside.
Or let them walk and a dok support them. With the ammo runts he will easily be worth his points.
Btw i also think he is still good, even if you stick him with boys. 2-3 rolls of 6 may be enough to keep the carging mob over 20 models and when the first morale losses kick in every saved boy saves another one because he improves the ld.
Not to mention his healing option and the chance to throw in some extra claw / saw attacks.
And using multiple buffs on large mobs makes him even better.
Its called Specializing and for the longest time its been the mark of a good unit. who gives a damn if Lootas have 2 attacks each? they are never going to use it and are paying points for CC abilities they don't need. I would gladly trade 1 of those attacks for +1 shots with the Deffgun. And the WS4? Same thing, drop it to WS2 but PLEASE give me BS3 or 4!
Spoiler:
and our specialist units? Burna Boyz? D3 instead of D6 and only 2 attacks? utter trash. The only decent specialist unit we have really is Tankbustas which is why you see them spammed everywhere.
Boyz and Bustas across the board.
Orkz should only be trying to get in CC, I concur!
About specialization;
-An ork with Choppa Slugga wastes no stats in shooting, save for firing a pistol, terribly, at those remaining in CC -Deff Rolla now allows the wagonz to fite, if only a modest contributor
-Big Choppa is undercosted in an ork's hands, I guarantee it.
-We can't shoot, so plan to ignore fliers, unless you are the brand of ork who brings 81 Stormboyz and 9 Stormboy Nobz with Big Choppa to a fight.
-Automatic Hits should be the only shooting profiles your bring
Hate to break the news to you buttercup the meta is already anti horde stormraven spam and conscript/artillery spam is anti horde... as horde is he current hotness.
And yet even with an anti horde meta orks still took 2nd at the Caledonia major tournament right behind stormraven spam and beating out a bunch of the other top lists I mention. So stop crying about how orks suck they don't.
pismakron wrote: When deepstriking are you guys shooting before the charge?
Something happened to me tonight: A clever tau player had arranged his kroot in a sort of a line with spikes on it. And as my shoota-boyz jumped in and opened fire, he simply took casualties from the front, making the charge distance a full inch higher. And the charge subsequently failed. Maybe I should work more on my positioning when jumping in. I also think that I need to remove those shootas from my boyz, and give them choppas+sluggas. Choppas are simply better.
I think it's best to place your boyz such that they can shoot at one unit and charge another. The charge will almost certainly do enough damage to cause a morale failure (barring whatever rule they have to mitigate that) and doesn't risk shorting the charge. The shooting is just extra. If it's 30 shoota boyz, you have the best of both worlds and you can wreck 2 units, unless the shooting target is a vehicle.
I think you should go for both. The chance to shoot at one target and charge another makes up for the 18'' range. And you still can bring heavy weapons. And fire them while advancing. 5+ vs 6+ makes no big difference when you bring enough dices.
I'm not sure rokkits are all that great in boyz squads. Sure, you'll be firing them half of the game but they won't hit all that often as boyz need to advance to get anywhere.
Trukks, BWs, nob with waaagh banner, big mek with KFF, painboyz/grotsnik, stormboyz, zagstruck, biker bosses/zhadsnark and some mek gunz are also fine, good or viable at least. Maybe even koptas and dakkajets, which are units that I've never played even in the previous edition but they don't look completely useless. Maybe even the nauts. We've got several decent options, but only boyz, ghaz, weirdboyz and bustas are really great.
I'm currently struggling more with my SW rather than orks. And I don't play with more than 60 boyz typically, only a few times I've tried 90 of them, footslogging.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thenewgozoku wrote: I think rokkits are aren't worthy of their point cost. Only -2AP.
Tankbustas have the re-roll against vehicles, though, which helps a lot. And they can use bomb squigs and melta bombs too.
I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.
Or you 1 more attack on each boy in melee that hits on a 3 in addition to pistol shots in and outside of melee which is far better for any slug fests that go down and plays into the pure assault mindset of the orks. Like you wont outshoot anyone and you lose a solid edge you have in melee against melee armies if you take shootas.
IDK I am no pro so I could be entirely wrong, but I am just not seeing the value of shootas over choppas.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.
Sometimes you just need all the shooting you can get - even if it's bad shooting. In my game vs necrons i had 3 blobs of boyz with 10 shootas in each squad. They all advanced and together with ghaz's t-l bigshoota and a wierdboy'z smite managed to kill 2 scarab bases. But that was enough to get to immortals and wipe them out. If i didn't have shootas, i'd have to hang out in the open for another turn. So, i'd suffer way more casualties if i couldn't kill those 2 scarabs blocking the way.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.
Sometimes you just need all the shooting you can get - even if it's bad shooting. In my game vs necrons i had 3 blobs of boyz with 10 shootas in each squad. They all advanced and together with ghaz's t-l bigshoota and a wierdboy'z smite managed to kill 2 scarab bases. But that was enough to get to immortals and wipe them out. If i didn't have shootas, i'd have to hang out in the open for another turn. So, i'd suffer way more casualties if i couldn't kill those 2 scarabs blocking the way.
These are the situations where shootas work. Plus, its no extra cost to take them, and assuming you take casualties on the way from enemy shooting and overwatch; if the enemy doesn't have chaff and screens and roadblocks.... then you just take out the shootas first. 10 shootas or 1/3 of the unit seems decent balance (maybe go more shootas at lower unit sizes, not sure). But i see little downside. you lose 10 attacks assuming the blob makes it there completely untouched. Thats then assuming you also make it into combat with all 30. Not to mention they can split fire. So maybe their is a remnant unit that has fallen back and is down to very little; a couple marines left. having 10 shootas in a squad put some shots in isn't going to hurt, then they can charge into the unit you want to charge with the choppas.
Also, once you do start seeing combat you may not need to advance in the following turns to get to the next combat. At that point the shoota's go back to BS5. potentially good for polishing off falling back units. I feel if your running a horde there's not much of a downside to having 1/3 shoota boyz. the extra range will either be useless; in which case they become the first to die. Or you'll decide that anything you charge is going to die (because a horde is going to output soo many dice), so having shootas helps for the odd situations where you need the range.
Not saying shootas are a total game changer.
But 5-10 of them in a large mob will kill something from time to time.
And you can still take them out when you suffer your first casualties and see they will be no good for you.
For example vs mech only and if you're using your warboss to advance them and charge and you need all attacks you can get.
I actually like to keep them alive till the end of the game where sometimes a hand full of wounds can make an important difference.
Especially when your warboss got taken out and your footloggers lack flexibility when they can't advance and charge anymore.
Then you will be happy to have your rokkits left.
But still your right they are expensive and you won't profit from the shootas all the time.
Depends on the enemy and the situation but i like the flexibility they give.
And last but not least i would feel bad for my bad moons if i don't give them their three heavy weapons.^^
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s
I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.
Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game
davou wrote: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s
We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!
Well, min squads of big gunz are ok for grabbing points backfield if there are no killpoints in the mission, i think everyone agrees here. He still had Ghaz, wierdboyz and 3*30 boyz. So, the core is basically what's established to be good in our book.
It's interesting to see if he actually got any mileage out of a biker big mek, painboy and all those rokkits. Still not sold on dakkajets. They're pretty bad when you compare them to what other armies get. But i guess it's not that horrible for orks after all. We do need some shooting.
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s
I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.
Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game
no one has ever said big meks on bikes suck, Daka jets which is out best flyer sucks, or kannon spam sucks (it's only problem is kill points)
You also fail to mention the rest of his list was 30boyblob spam and smite weird boy spam.. which are our best units this edition. Ghaz is good as well. And the pain boy is ok but would have been better with grotsnik or killsaw for 3-4pts more. And that was his entire list essentially boyspam w weird boys and kannons.
We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!
Would certainly be interested to know the history of that player If hes just and old ork hand comming out of the woodworks finally, or if hes a tournament regular who picked up orks during the 8th switch.
davou wrote: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s
We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!
Well, min squads of big gunz are ok for grabbing points backfield if there are no killpoints in the mission, i think everyone agrees here. He still had Ghaz, wierdboyz and 3*30 boyz. So, the core is basically what's established to be good in our book.
It's interesting to see if he actually got any mileage out of a biker big mek, painboy and all those rokkits. Still not sold on dakkajets. They're pretty bad when you compare them to what other armies get. But i guess it's not that horrible for orks after all. We do need some shooting.
a single biker big men can cover 3 30boy squads it's basically auto include right now. The meta is flyer spam and hordes with the dakka jets put out incredible amounts of 4+ str6 shooting. It's not a stormraven but it's decent. Rokkits are egh if he advances they hit on 6s and the pain boy is ok but might as well make him a Maddoc for 4pts.
I always include a biker big mek with KFF but mostly because I don't run footsloggers and a 5+ invuln given to trukks or BWs is handy. I'm also not sold on tankbustas in trukks in a footslogging list as those lone two trukks will take all the anti tank in the world and die miserably.
Mixing vehicles and footsloggers is tricky, making your opponent waste some of his/her firepower is a good tactic, not mandatory but quite effective in my experience. I tipycally go with full vehicles, biker characters and KMKs and kommandos in reserve so S4 shooting is basically wasted in the first turns, while footslogging lists nullify the anti tank pretty well.
I really want to like the shokk attack gun, but it is just way too random. it is so tempting to use, but between random strength, random shots, random damage and ork bs...I just know I will always roll 1 shot for S12 which will miss, and 6 shots for S2.
I wish either that it were a fixed 6 shots (which would be my preference), or that it was S 6+D6, so at least you knew you would get S7 minimum. It would also be nice if big meks could take ammo runts. OR at least Roll 3D6, assign 1 to shots, and 2 to strength.
then again if they were too good, an army of them with a load of boyz would be stupid.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone run a full Green Tide yet? I'm thinking about this for my league now.
Spoiler:
After digging up my army I found I have the following for a 2K
Ghaz
2x Weirdboyz
Snikrot
5x 30 Choppa Boyz w BC Nob
1x 30 Shoota Boyz w 3x BS and BC Nob
Nob with Waaaagh banner
Painboy
5x Kommandoz w 2x Burna and BC Nob
2x Dakkajet -6x Supa Shoota
Should carpet the board nicely, jump around and Snikrot and the Kommandoz are there to disrupt artillery/be a speed bump
I'm running something similar with great success so far.
Air Wing Detachment
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Batallion Detachment
Ghazghkull Thraka
Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Weirdboy: 2. Warpath
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota
Painboy: Power Klaw
Mek Gunz
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
1999 Points.
Ratius wrote: Im trying out 5 mek gunz (kustom mega kannons) tomorrow. Any advice on them?
Put them nearby one of the objectives. If you have one heavy support slot available you may consider splitting them into two smaller units. The 36'' range is not that good and deploying the KMKs into two units very far from each other helps a lot.
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s
I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.
Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game
Again, full squads of Shoota Boyz in a tournament winning list. But conventional wisdom on here is choppas for more attacks... #indecisive
Yeah no, not trolling I am being completely serious. And as I predicted orkz would win a bit in the beginning and as soon as the meta fixes itself Orkz will be bottom tier again. Our only competitive build revolves around Horde spam and IG does that better then us as do Nidz.
As for the tourny davou mentions, i like how he cherry picks the units he likes and forgets to mention the BULK of that army was 90 boyz, Ghaz and Smite spam.
As soon as more people figure out how to kill hordes with better weapons its going to be a slaughter mark my words. Tau are starting to figure it out right now, no longer can they just bring 3 Riptides and a Stormsurge and call GG>
Dude the meta is already anti horde. The current meta is hordes and flyers period. Anti horde is part of every decent list. Stormraven spam is anti horde, guard spam is anti horde, everything that's competitive is by default anti horde. Stop trying to pretend like the meta needs to adjust to orks.
That is flat out Wrong. The meta is adjusting to stormraven spam and layered missions not orks which isn't a concern. Ork horde is competitive and will stay competitive. I'm sorry you are wrong and not psychic orks are decent this edition. Not broken and overpowered but competitive and tournament results continue to show that.
gungo wrote: Dude the meta is already anti horde. The current meta is hordes and flyers period. Anti horde is part of every decent list. Stormraven spam is anti horde, guard spam is anti horde, everything that's competitive is by default anti horde. Stop trying to pretend like the meta needs to adjust to orks.
That is flat out Wrong. The meta is adjusting to stormraven spam and layered missions not orks which isn't a concern. Ork horde is competitive and will stay competitive.
Ohh I am not denying that. Ork Hordes will be our go to until the new codex gets released and then who knows where we will be. But I guarantee you, you will not be seeing Ork Hordes finishing in the top 10 after a bit.
SemperMortis, maybe you should play a different army instead of bringing everyone down with your negative attitude all the time. You won't be satisfied until Orks are bottom tier again.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone run a full Green Tide yet? I'm thinking about this for my league now. After digging up my army I found I have the following for a 2K
Ghaz
2x Weirdboyz
Snikrot
5x 30 Choppa Boyz w BC Nob
1x 30 Shoota Boyz w 3x BS and BC Nob
Nob with Waaaagh banner
Painboy
5x Kommandoz w 2x Burna and BC Nob
2x Dakkajet -6x Supa Shoota
Should carpet the board nicely, jump around and Snikrot and the Kommandoz are there to disrupt artillery/be a speed bump
I'd add a second banner nob so you are guaranteed his buff on all mobs. In addition, maybe cut some boyz to field a third Dakkajet for an additional CP.
On the issue of SemperMortis: Can't we all just ignore him? He adds nothing new to the tactics discussion, he just keeps derailing the thread with his claims about how orks will be bottom tier for all eternity without anything to back that up. He will commit any logical fallacy to still claim to be right, including denying the content of his own posts. There is really no point in answering to any of his posts that do not revolve around tactics.
And for the record: He got flakk for calling orks doomed before he had even read the rules or played a single game, idiotic interpretations of rules and for claiming that anyone who disagreed with him was on GW's payroll.
Breng77 wrote: I really want to like the shokk attack gun, but it is just way too random. it is so tempting to use, but between random strength, random shots, random damage and ork bs...I just know I will always roll 1 shot for S12 which will miss, and 6 shots for S2.
I wish either that it were a fixed 6 shots (which would be my preference), or that it was S 6+D6, so at least you knew you would get S7 minimum. It would also be nice if big meks could take ammo runts. OR at least Roll 3D6, assign 1 to shots, and 2 to strength.
then again if they were too good, an army of them with a load of boyz would be stupid.
I'm going to test it in my next few games with my shooty orks.
For all the random stuff there are still CP's but I still struggle with the detachments.
Even with 1850 and 2000 points i get no more then 7 CP's - i don't like filling the slots up with cheap units just to get the brigade detachment.
Need to fill up fast attack and i think about buggies or kopta and 1 unit bikes maybe.
The core is:
KFF mek
Mek with shock attack gun
Wyrdboy
2x30 boyz
Grotz
Tankbustas
Flash gits
Lootas
Gorkanaut
Battle wagon
Big guns and mek guns
(Dok)
Problem are the missing heavy support slots when going for the brigade and the points i need to fill the troops slots.
Not sure if the additional 5 CP's are worth the trouble or if I should stick with the battalion + spearhead detachment and invest the points in more dakka.
Fw index FAQ is out. Nothing earth shattering
Squiggoths both varieties do mortal wounds on 2+ instead of 2 like everyone thought.
Meka dread gets a choice of rokkitbombs, mega charga (still no cost), and kff.
Buzzgrob still doesn't explain how he can take a kff or if it's included in his profile.
However good news is
Q: There are no datasheets for Mega-dreads, Battlefortresses or Grot Bomb Launchers – are there datasheets I should use for these models?
A: Datasheets for these models will be published on the Forge World and Warhammer Community websites.
The meka dread is decent so I'm hopeful on megadread... the grot Bomb launchers may be decent depending on price. I'm not hopeful on battlefortress both because the model is no where to be found and because expensive ork vehicles based on poor ork bs haven't been kind this edition.
gungo wrote: The meka dread is decent so I'm hopeful on megadread... the grot Bomb launchers may be decent depending on price. I'm not hopeful on battlefortress both because the model is no where to be found and because expensive ork vehicles based on poor ork bs haven't been kind this edition.
I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high, but they might randomly give it BS4 like the Meka Dread and.or give it a bunch more weapon options that it never had.
It might also be a good transport for a MANz pseudo-deathstar, but I have a feeling that won't be competitive anyway. (I say pseudo because it wouldn't be unkillable like a real deathstar, but just crazy expensive. I think it might be fun to experiment with MANz plus a Waaagh Banner plus a Painboy, but that is pretty dang costly.)
We can surmise what weapons it will have by what's forgeworld sells. Killkannon arm and saw arm. Sadly this FAQ nerfed the fw killkannon profile of 6 shots to d6 shots so you are correct this dread needs bs4 not bs5 to be decent. The ap-4 dread saw will be decent. It has a mega charga in 6th edition so if it still has that it should be decent even if it's bs5 with double klaws. It also has a supa skorcha in 6th and that's amazing. My hope is same profile as meka dread w mega charga and killsaw, klaw, killkannon, and supa skorcha options even if nerfed to bs5 skorcha and klaw options don't care.
Sorry, I should have been more specific I was talking about the Battlefortress when it came to BS4 and weapon options.
If the Mega Dread can take a Supa Skorcha that would be amazing, although I wasn't really worried about it because I figured it would be decent with multiple claws/saws.
I'm expecting the points will go up on the Supa Skorcha, as that thing is bananas.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Sorry, I should have been more specific I was talking about the Battlefortress when it came to BS4 and weapon options.
If the Mega Dread can take a Supa Skorcha that would be amazing, although I wasn't really worried about it because I figured it would be decent with multiple claws/saws.
I'm expecting the points will go up on the Supa Skorcha, as that thing is bananas.
the supa skorcha is our best anti flyer wpn. I don't think it's badly costed I just think it's great for orks because bs5 sucks so bad this edition with all the -1 to hits.
I'd add a second banner nob so you are guaranteed his buff on all mobs. In addition, maybe cut some boyz to field a third Dakkajet for an additional CP.
On the issue of SemperMortis: Can't we all just ignore him? He adds nothing new to the tactics discussion, he just keeps derailing the thread with his claims about how orks will be bottom tier for all eternity without anything to back that up. He will commit any logical fallacy to still claim to be right, including denying the content of his own posts. There is really no point in answering to any of his posts that do not revolve around tactics.
And for the record: He got flakk for calling orks doomed before he had even read the rules or played a single game, idiotic interpretations of rules and for claiming that anyone who disagreed with him was on GW's payroll.
If you are going to lie about me at least make it believable.
I do add to the tactics discussion, i just don't agree with you. And so far those logical fallacies have proven to be spot on for the most part. The vast majority of our codex is crap, and running around saying otherwise doesn't change that fact. And for the Record I got flakk for reading the leaks of several different factions and ours and then comparing them and came to the conclusion that yet again orkz were under powered, and going by our W/L ratio in the other section we are second to last behind Tau who got their precious Riptides/stormsurges hit with the Nerf hammer hard. I did make a joke about Reese being on GWs payroll because I couldn't believe how ridiculous his statements were in regards to the Stompa being good, or are you going to defend Reese's prediction on the stompa again?
And on the subject of your list "More Dakka" I would ditch the Dakkajets entirely and field more kommandos OR Conversely ditch the Kommandos entirely. 1 unit of Kommandos with a marginal save (unless in cover) isn't that frightening nor is it much of a distraction since a SMTac squad can force a morale fail pretty easy. When I field Kommandos I usually do so in sets of 3 (Vanguard detachment i think?) anyway, the point is if you have MSU Kommandos they are very scary because if they do get into CC with those squishy units they can shut down his entire backfield. The best part is they are really cheap and do draw fire like crazy which gives your boyz a turn or possibly 2 to get up the board as fast as possible. Da Jump a unit of boyz as well to really up the ante!
Kommandos are good no doubt good distraction units and can be a problem in numbers. I think the dakka jet is very good 148 points for 18 str 6 and hitting on 4s is good yes the storm Raven is better but you almost get 2 dakka jets for same price that's a lot of anti inf dakka we can use.
It's not a game where we should be comparing one unit to another it's how the hole army you field works if they spam flyers we may struggle to take them out that's fine kill everything else then they will struggle with objectives.
Also on a side note vs flyers we have tractor cannons
Traktor kannons are like almost good until you realize they don't ignore hard to hit or gain +1 to hit flyers. A single shot bs 5+ weapon that costs 40pts and does less damage to non flyers.
A lot of ork shooting problems could be solved w fixed shots/wounds. Killkannons are good at 6 shots (not d6), many of the mek guns/big guns could also be fixed w fix gaks or fixed wounds.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: If mek guns didn't cost 45$ a piece I would filed bubblechukkas all day long
You can always buy 2-3 boxes and then scratch build the rest. Any ork player should have plenty of stuff to do that.
Grot gunners can easily be build using the grot box or you use grot gunners from forge world / other sellers.
gungo wrote: Traktor kannons are like almost good until you realize they don't ignore hard to hit or gain +1 to hit flyers. A single shot bs 5+ weapon that costs 40pts and does less damage to non flyers.
A lot of ork shooting problems could be solved w fixed shots/wounds. Killkannons are good at 6 shots (not d6), many of the mek guns/big guns could also be fixed w fix gaks or fixed wounds.
I just don't see what's to like about the Traktor Kannon at all. I've changed out 6 of my KMK's for Smasha Guns and changed out a few more and my Traktor knannons for Bubble Chukkas. (2 KMK's left now.)
I really want more Kannons now 3 just isn't enough. D6 damage is where it's at.
Was anyone else a bit disconcerted to see Dan Harden's Orks get absolutely slapped around against Tau in this months White Dwarf?
The board was pretty light on scenery, but he never looked like he could have threated the massive mecha tengu's that the Tau player brought and most his force evaporated to the attentions of Tau shooting. I don't really see how to combat Tau, their high strength guns are great at killing vehicles and they are highly manouvereable so hordes of boys struggle to pin them down in combat...
wtwlf123 wrote: I think Tau is a bad matchup for Orks with the current Meta, they excel at the strategy that's good against Orks ATM.
Tau have always been the hard counter to Orkz. There is nothing in our codex that Tau can't handle with their common units. The funniest thing about Tau to me is that their basic troops (Firewarriors) are REALLY GOOD! but they don't get any use because you need to build a list around them and Tau's other units are even better (Or they were).
I thought tractor kannon was + 1 to hit flyers but it is not in which case the kannon is way better could get 8 for 1 stormraven not the best out there but they wouldn't want to ignore it for to long, 2-3 hits 1-2 wounds 5+ save likely just 1 d6 damage but hey as I say they have to deal with it.
Failing that super scorchas as someone said before burn baby burn
A kannon will do half a wound of damage to a stormraven per turn. In order to kill one stormraven over two turns you will need some 15 kannonz. You will need more if he decides to shoot back. Tankbustas are slightly more pointefficient, but also harder to get into position. Weirdboyz are even more effective, but are even harder to get into firing position. Skorchas and superskorchas are not good at wounding T7.
It doesn't matter if the str6 super skorcha isn't great at wounding t7+.
It's the fact is does 4-12 automatic hits vs flyers with -2ap at 24in range.
It's an average of 8 automatic hits and ~3 wounds vs t7 for a weapon that costs 28pts.
It's awesome for overwatch and even better vs t6 or less. Sadly it's only on the big trakk right now but I'm hopeful on the mega dread. Give that thing a mega charga and the range on the super skorcha is awesome. If I can turn both arms of a mega dread to supa skorcha I would. I'd take 5-6 wounds to a flyer. And good luck to anyone trying to assault the mega dread with 8-24 automatic hits.
Sledgio wrote: Had 3 battles today and agree with most of this thread lol.
Boyz are great.
Stormboyz are great.
Weirdboyz are great.
Deffkoptas are okay.
Really like the Big Mek on bike with KFF too.
Also anyone got advice on building a walker-heavy Kan Wall style list in 8th?
I got schooled this weekend, don't let a quad-Las anything rerolling one's fire at a battlewagon turn one. In malestrom, don't be afraid to spend the CP on the reroll if you draw a bad objective. I had to move my fire support turn one to get a free VP, it led to terrible shooting. My Lootas and SAG mek performed poorly and were dead and tied into combat because I let one bad malestrom objective push me into bad decisions. Ghaz'khul shined brightly, smashing many choppy marines and a vehicle. With what points I sacrificed on transports that crumpled up easily with no save my boyz were outnumbered by a better armored, equally choppy, Black Templar foe. I conceded by turn four, easily may have been tabled if the marines would fall back and let the quad las metal box shoot Ghaz. I might do a mechanized Ork redo at more points and with a KFF Biker BM.
We played another game with me choosing a horde list. It was a bit beardy of me because I knew he had a lot of Las assets, but my friend likes seeing what more competitive orkstuff might look like. So I pulled out 90 boyz, 30 with shootas, a dusty weirdboy, Ghaz'khull, two banner nobz, a few Stormboyz, Snikrot, and the Mad Dok. We drew the relic, my opponent started his snipers on the relic and took off with it, spreading the field to deny a decent Da Jump and leaving vehicles for me to climb over in hopes of running down the relic. The one thing going for me by the bottom of turn one was that I had lots of assaultable targets. I moved and advanced everything except shootaboyz, I jumped them into a back corner with Snikrot in shooting range of snipers and some choppy marines with meatshields. I shot lots of marines it did well. In the assault phase stormboyz and ghaz came up with with a rhino kill, the boyz failed assaults. Turn two my opponent used his transports to tie up my boyz so he could clear out and tie up stuff for him to assault. With Ghaz'khull's buff and the banner we flipped over all the transports except the one in the back on the shoota boyz. At this time my opponent wanted to call it on time and conceding that it seems I would win.
Ork boyz with buffs seem amazing, jumping shoota boyz worked, Ghaz continues to be great, Stormboyz do a good job, banner nobz are great, da jump worked fine.
Dakkajet seemed out of place, no really good targets
Battlewagonz need a KFF (don't be dumb like me) for Lascannons and Ard Case to keep massed strength four from wounding on 5's
I take back what I said about powerklaws, it was really nice for T7 vehicles to have almost no save and maybe it is worth 14 more points, when buffed with banner and Ghaz it seems like a no brainer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Being an ork that suddenly pulls out two to five weirdboyz this Ed gives me that 'I'm that guy' feeling. I feel like it gets a nerf at the next nerfdate.
Here's the thing w wagons. A lot of ork lists that is the only vehicle target and it will explode vs all the anti tank shooting. Best ork tactic is just to give them no vehicles. Shooting lascannons melta or plasma at orks are a waste. The only real save vs shooting orks have is a kff 5++.
Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
Rismonite wrote: Turn two my opponent used his transports to tie up my boyz so he could clear out and tie up stuff for him to assault. With Ghaz'khull's buff and the banner we flipped over all the transports except the one in the back on the shoota boyz.
Keep in mind that Ghaz's buff only works on the charge. It's still great. And Ghaz is well worth his point tag. In fact, there's almost no reason to take a regular megaboss if you can get Ghaz. At least not before the clan taktix arrive (if we ever get those).
As for wierdboyz, they generally have ~3 psy phases before they start exploding. Still good for the utility but not broken good.
Being an ork that suddenly pulls out two to five weirdboyz this Ed gives me that 'I'm that guy' feeling. I feel like it gets a nerf at the next nerfdate.
That might be good for the overall meta health. Cause 'sometimes' spamming laz is just not enough to win games.
I feel that mech is only viable if you bring at least 4 wagons or 7-8 trukks in a 2000 point list. Or a combination. A single transport can only survive when behind blocking terrain. Hardtop on a wagon really helps, but not against lascannons. But T8 still helps against bolters, autocannons and plasma. A KFF biker is also a good investment.
In 7-th i utilised a strategy of extra trukks rolling along the main ones. As i played bully boyz, transport problems were a big deal for units of 5 manz. So, what i did was fielding either empty trukks along the manz trukks or trukks with min cheap units - like 10 naked boyz or 5 tankbustas. So that when MANz trukks got wrecked, thy could always hop inside the trukks that were nearby. Or if the enemy wanted to stop the Meganobz, he had to waste firepower on extra trukks either.
Not sure it's gona be useful for mech lists in 8-th but theoretically you could buy an extra trukk for the points of a kff mek that could just ride along your important squads to pick them up. But it at least provides some freedom of movement compared to sticking vehicles close to kff meks.
koooaei wrote: In 7-th i utilised a strategy of extra trukks rolling along the main ones. As i played bully boyz, transport problems were a big deal for units of 5 manz. So, what i did was fielding either empty trukks along the manz trukks or trukks with min cheap units - like 10 naked boyz or 5 tankbustas. So that when MANz trukks got wrecked, thy could always hop inside the trukks that were nearby. Or if the enemy wanted to stop the Meganobz, he had to waste firepower on extra trukks either.
Not sure it's gona be useful for mech lists in 8-th but theoretically you could buy an extra trukk for the points of a kff mek that could just ride along your important squads to pick them up. But it at least provides some freedom of movement compared to sticking vehicles close to kff meks.
I think if your going mech this season you should simply be looking at the FW index stuff. You can basically drop the KFF on a meka; gives you a larger area as a bonus. Then you can stack grot tank/mega tank if you want shot output (they are surprisingly cheap when given BS or KMK's; secondly the megatank has a whole load of arsenal such as the boomcanisters that it gets for like 2 pts or something, they are single model too, so suffer no LD issues). If your desperate to have boyz in the lists, go with bigtrakks, stick supa-skorchas on em, stick a kommando unit inside, gives you the additional burna shots on overwatch. Or if it takes your fancy, Nobs with kombi skorchas. They cost about 2-3x a burna boy, but you get the skorcha and the CC capabilities. Stick Ghazz in one of them with a banner nob and a couple weirdboyz and when your finished pumping out all your automatic hitting shots you just unload and chop up everything left
A supa-skorcha big trakk comes in around 180-210 depending on all the gadgets you give it, Take those instead of trukks. As they can still transport your smaller units around late game, and they dish out da pain as they do.
180 pts is a stiff price to pay even for such a decent unit as a skorcha trakk. It's also fw which is not always approved of.
Anywayz, what do you guyz think about ork planes? I've got one and it can theoretically help a footslogging horde with clearing out bauble wraps and puting a couple wounds on some annoying ranged support stuff we're gona face.
Have just been looking at the planes actually! For the price of 2 deffkoptas they don't seem too bad to me. Has anyone used them and found which is best? I quite like the look of the burna bomber and the dakkajet tbh.
The plane's durability is what's bothering me. If currently my footslogging list has no good targets for multi-wound weapons as i'm planning to get rid of deffkoptas in favor of stormboyz, the plane's going to be a prime target for all the missiles and lazers the opponent has. And i can't reserve a plane.
That's bothering me with orks. Our stuff really promotes spamming of same-type units. I want to field a horde but i also want a couple trukks, koptas and probably a plane that i've only fielded a couple times in fun games of 7-th. But if i want to go competitive, those tougher more expensive targets seem to not be worth it. Especially with how cover works (doesn't) now. As i can't even mitigate incoming damage. It's close to impossible to hide 100% of the model from all those hostile antennas and even if you get cover, it's ignored with high ap weapons.
koooaei wrote: The plane's durability is what's bothering me. If currently my footslogging list has no good targets for multi-wound weapons as i'm planning to get rid of deffkoptas in favor of stormboyz, the plane's going to be a prime target for all the missiles and lazers the opponent has. And i can't reserve a plane.
That's bothering me with orks. Our stuff really promotes spamming of same-type units. I want to field a horde but i also want a couple trukks, koptas and probably a plane that i've only fielded a couple times in fun games of 7-th. But if i want to go competitive, those tougher more expensive targets seem to not be worth it. Especially with how cover works (doesn't) now. As i can't even mitigate incoming damage. It's close to impossible to hide 100% of the model from all those hostile antennas and even if you get cover, it's ignored with high ap weapons.
The question is; How competitive? Because if the ONLY thing your playing against is GT lists with whatever flavor spam it is, then yeh maybe taking those models isn't a great idea. But I imagine running a horde all day every day is just a bit dull. Surely not every game you play has to be the most competitive list we can dish out?
koooaei wrote: The plane's durability is what's bothering me. If currently my footslogging list has no good targets for multi-wound weapons as i'm planning to get rid of deffkoptas in favor of stormboyz, the plane's going to be a prime target for all the missiles and lazers the opponent has. And i can't reserve a plane.
That's bothering me with orks. Our stuff really promotes spamming of same-type units. I want to field a horde but i also want a couple trukks, koptas and probably a plane that i've only fielded a couple times in fun games of 7-th. But if i want to go competitive, those tougher more expensive targets seem to not be worth it. Especially with how cover works (doesn't) now. As i can't even mitigate incoming damage. It's close to impossible to hide 100% of the model from all those hostile antennas and even if you get cover, it's ignored with high ap weapons.
I feel like to some extent this is true. I think you can run a balanced list, but it would be closer to 50-50 infantry armor, more extreme on either end and you provide obvious targets for specific shooting types.
The question is; How competitive? Because if the ONLY thing your playing against is GT lists with whatever flavor spam it is, then yeh maybe taking those models isn't a great idea. But I imagine running a horde all day every day is just a bit dull. Surely not every game you play has to be the most competitive list we can dish out?
Yeah that's true. I actually field "whatever gets out of my bag first" or "what i really want to test out" in casual games and we change the lists on the go so that it's easier to have a good time for both players. Like the last time i ditched a squad of boyz in favor of a couple koptas cause my opponent has brought a lazer-shooting speder necron thingy. It'd be a waste against just boyz. But it felt ok killing a kopta per turn. So, everyone was happy.
Competitive games are another thing however. It's yet to be seen if it's possible to mix up different types of units as the meta hasn't really developed yet. And we're yet to recieve codexes and unit repricings. I remember a famous 7-th greentide list that included tankbustas in gun wagons and they were doing pretty good.
I've not had any luck with Ork Planes in 7th and I have only brought out my Dakkajet one time in 8th and it definitely wasn't worth the price tag in that game. The math hammer is also against Dakkajets. I do still like Deff Koptas and am really enjoying the look of pure unadulterated horror on my opponents face when a unit of 3 Deff Koptas flies over his super expensive elite squad and instantly inflicts 5 mortal wounds on them Or when my opponent spends his entire 1st turn attempting to remove the Kommandos and Deff Koptas that appeared in his back field and completely forgets about the 90+ Boyz who just waltzed up the table and are now in his face for a turn 2 assault.
I am definitely of the opinion that Deff Koptas are horribly over priced for what little they do and how fragile they are but I still see a use for them over an Ork plane simply because it can appear behind enemy lines and go after his expensive stuff he is trying to hide in the back.
One last good thing I will say about Deff Koptas is they have a decent save, T Value and Wounds so that realistically your opponent has to designate more then a single squad of Marines to deal with them. In one particularly funny game my opponent ignored my Killa Kanz for an entire turn and focused all his anti-tank fire on my Deff Koptas who somehow managed to survive with unlucky rolls on his part.
koooaei wrote: The plane's durability is what's bothering me. If currently my footslogging list has no good targets for multi-wound weapons as i'm planning to get rid of deffkoptas in favor of stormboyz, the plane's going to be a prime target for all the missiles and lazers the opponent has. And i can't reserve a plane.
That's bothering me with orks. Our stuff really promotes spamming of same-type units. I want to field a horde but i also want a couple trukks, koptas and probably a plane that i've only fielded a couple times in fun games of 7-th. But if i want to go competitive, those tougher more expensive targets seem to not be worth it. Especially with how cover works (doesn't) now. As i can't even mitigate incoming damage. It's close to impossible to hide 100% of the model from all those hostile antennas and even if you get cover, it's ignored with high ap weapons.
I feel like to some extent this is true. I think you can run a balanced list, but it would be closer to 50-50 infantry armor, more extreme on either end and you provide obvious targets for specific shooting types.
I think it is more the other way around. To be competitive you need to go extreme. Either 100% horde or 100% mechanized. Fliers, tankbustas, nobz, wagons etc are decent units, but they just have no synergy with a green tide list. A green tide list only really works well with characters, boyz, stormboyz, kommandos and gretchin. Big gunz can also work semi-well. Everything else will just weaken your pressure while giving all his lascannons and plasmas some juicy targets.
koooaei wrote: The plane's durability is what's bothering me. If currently my footslogging list has no good targets for multi-wound weapons as i'm planning to get rid of deffkoptas in favor of stormboyz, the plane's going to be a prime target for all the missiles and lazers the opponent has. And i can't reserve a plane.
That's bothering me with orks. Our stuff really promotes spamming of same-type units. I want to field a horde but i also want a couple trukks, koptas and probably a plane that i've only fielded a couple times in fun games of 7-th. But if i want to go competitive, those tougher more expensive targets seem to not be worth it. Especially with how cover works (doesn't) now. As i can't even mitigate incoming damage. It's close to impossible to hide 100% of the model from all those hostile antennas and even if you get cover, it's ignored with high ap weapons.
I feel like to some extent this is true. I think you can run a balanced list, but it would be closer to 50-50 infantry armor, more extreme on either end and you provide obvious targets for specific shooting types.
I think it is more the other way around. To be competitive you need to go extreme. Either 100% horde or 100% mechanized. Fliers, tankbustas, nobz, wagons etc are decent units, but they just have no synergy with a green tide list. A green tide list only really works well with characters, boyz, stormboyz, kommandos and gretchin. Big gunz can also work semi-well. Everything else will just weaken your pressure while giving all his lascannons and plasmas some juicy targets.
I think you missed what I was saying, you either need to go to the extreme, or about 50-50 balance. So like 90 boyz + 3 Wagons, 4 trukks and contents can work because you have enough targets of each type to work. It is probably not as strong perhaps as going super skew, but it is much better than having say greentide with a single wagon of tankbustas, or a kan wall with a single squad of boyz. So you either go all in on one strategy or somewhat middle of the road, but adding in 1 or 2 elements of either is bad. It also depends on your meta, if you meta is heavy anti-vehicle then all horde is great, if they are super anti-horde, all vehicle is great, if it is more balanced, it really depends.
I only play 1 army which is Orks and I'm an infrequent gamer as my limited time is split between my multiple interests.
I was planning on picking up the rulebook and Index come payday (end of the month) but now hearing the Codices are starting their run is giving me pause.... Should I wait for the codex to drop?
I know this year will be Mareens and Chaos heavy, but are we likely to see an Ork codex by Christmas/February? I've lost track of how many armies there actually are in the 40k universe as I only play casually with friends.
SemperMortis wrote: I've not had any luck with Ork Planes in 7th and I have only brought out my Dakkajet one time in 8th and it definitely wasn't worth the price tag in that game.
For Dakkajets, I'm never quite sure what massed S6 shooting is meant to be killing. It's nice volume of fire, but it feels like a solution in search of a problem. Crisis suits? I guess?
The bommers, on the other hand, I've really enjoyed. Back line shooting units in cover- devestators, fire warriors, havoks, etc- mulch my infantry pretty hard. So far, my planes have survived long enough to get both bombs off, and have had a much higher kill count than similar points (140 ish?) worth of big gunz or mek gunz, with no need to leave a unit behind to defend a vulnerable back line. Efficiency depends on targets, but the reach and reliability against entrenched infantry has been great, and made my opponents want to pull their hair out.
SemperMortis wrote: I've not had any luck with Ork Planes in 7th and I have only brought out my Dakkajet one time in 8th and it definitely wasn't worth the price tag in that game.
For Dakkajets, I'm never quite sure what massed S6 shooting is meant to be killing. It's nice volume of fire, but it feels like a solution in search of a problem. Crisis suits? I guess?
The bommers, on the other hand, I've really enjoyed. Back line shooting units in cover- devestators, fire warriors, havoks, etc- mulch my infantry pretty hard. So far, my planes have survived long enough to get both bombs off, and have had a much higher kill count than similar points (140 ish?) worth of big gunz or mek gunz, with no need to leave a unit behind to defend a vulnerable back line. Efficiency depends on targets, but the reach and reliability against entrenched infantry has been great, and made my opponents want to pull their hair out.
S6 shooting last edition was actually super powerful (Scatbikes) the problem is that Orkz couldn't, and still cant, deliver enough volume of accurate fire to make it worth it. You could buy a couple of maxed out Dakkajets for just shy of 300pts and get 18 relatively accurate S6 shots this edition, but for a similar price you could field about 18 Lootas who put out 36 shots on average (12 hits) at higher strength that do more damage.
SemperMortis wrote: Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
It's the way you'll place in tournies, not the only way to play
SemperMortis wrote: Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
It's the way you'll place in tournies, not the only way to play
"and have a chance" Yeah i'll amend that and say "A decent chance" and further amend that yes you can win with nothing but FlashGitz and Stompas but it will be horrifically harder then taking our best units and realistically you will be starting the game at a clear disadvantage.
SemperMortis wrote: I've not had any luck with Ork Planes in 7th and I have only brought out my Dakkajet one time in 8th and it definitely wasn't worth the price tag in that game.
For Dakkajets, I'm never quite sure what massed S6 shooting is meant to be killing. It's nice volume of fire, but it feels like a solution in search of a problem. Crisis suits? I guess?
The bommers, on the other hand, I've really enjoyed. Back line shooting units in cover- devestators, fire warriors, havoks, etc- mulch my infantry pretty hard. So far, my planes have survived long enough to get both bombs off, and have had a much higher kill count than similar points (140 ish?) worth of big gunz or mek gunz, with no need to leave a unit behind to defend a vulnerable back line. Efficiency depends on targets, but the reach and reliability against entrenched infantry has been great, and made my opponents want to pull their hair out.
S6 shooting last edition was actually super powerful (Scatbikes) the problem is that Orkz couldn't, and still cant, deliver enough volume of accurate fire to make it worth it. You could buy a couple of maxed out Dakkajets for just shy of 300pts and get 18 relatively accurate S6 shots this edition, but for a similar price you could field about 18 Lootas who put out 36 shots on average (12 hits) at higher strength that do more damage.
You actually get 36 guaranteed shots with dakkajets. so 18 hits. Lootas are anywhere from 18-54 shots. So dakkajets have consistency there. Then the dakkajets can also move very fast, get a -1 to hit, can only be targetted by flyers in combat, and are more durable. Also, not susceptible to battleshock. While the lootas have more damage its only useful when targeting the right unit. While dakkajets are good.. they have a similar problem I have with flash gitz is that they are best at targetting units that boyz blobs can simply handle better, and cheaper. Lootas shine when shooting light-medium vehicles and multi wounds models.
SemperMortis wrote: Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
It's the way you'll place in tournies, not the only way to play
"and have a chance" Yeah i'll amend that and say "A decent chance" and further amend that yes you can win with nothing but FlashGitz and Stompas but it will be horrifically harder then taking our best units and realistically you will be starting the game at a clear disadvantage.
Is your local club filled with those guys that you can't have a decent game without crafting all your lists like they are going straight to a GT? Or are you that guy?
I used the mobility in mine to single out a character model by moving almost on top of it and shooting. About as surgical as it gets for an army that doesn't aim.
S6 gets that 3+ to wound on T5 bikes, -1 AP helps their.
SemperMortis wrote: Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
It's the way you'll place in tournies, not the only way to play
"and have a chance" Yeah i'll amend that and say "A decent chance" and further amend that yes you can win with nothing but FlashGitz and Stompas but it will be horrifically harder then taking our best units and realistically you will be starting the game at a clear disadvantage.
Is your local club filled with those guys that you can't have a decent game without crafting all your lists like they are going straight to a GT? Or are you that guy?
no my area is filled with your average player mix in my opinion, some competitive lists, some for fun lists and most are middle of the road lists.
The difference is that if you take the Ork middle of the road stuff and face anyone who has middle of the road lists you are going to be at a disadvantage because our average stuff is crap.
Funny you are saying I am "That guy" but I play Orkz as my only army. I don't think I have ever met anyone who plays orkz solely who was "TFG".
SemperMortis wrote: Rismo, I never feel like TFG when I play the best units in the ork codex because realistically that is the only way to play them and have a chance. If you want to bring a ton of Weirdboyz go for it.
It's the way you'll place in tournies, not the only way to play
"and have a chance" Yeah i'll amend that and say "A decent chance" and further amend that yes you can win with nothing but FlashGitz and Stompas but it will be horrifically harder then taking our best units and realistically you will be starting the game at a clear disadvantage.
Is your local club filled with those guys that you can't have a decent game without crafting all your lists like they are going straight to a GT? Or are you that guy?
no my area is filled with your average player mix in my opinion, some competitive lists, some for fun lists and most are middle of the road lists.
The difference is that if you take the Ork middle of the road stuff and face anyone who has middle of the road lists you are going to be at a disadvantage because our average stuff is crap.
Funny you are saying I am "That guy" but I play Orkz as my only army. I don't think I have ever met anyone who plays orkz solely who was "TFG".
You can be TFG regardless of what army you play, though it's more common for TFG to play the flavour of the month armies. It's not as if army power level determines your behaviour. And judging from your end all be all attitude with Orks, I wouldn't be surprised if your opponents are wary of you since it seems like every game you'd just complain about the Ork army regardless if you won or lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rismonite wrote: I used the mobility in mine to single out a character model by moving almost on top of it and shooting. About as surgical as it gets for an army that doesn't aim.
S6 gets that 3+ to wound on T5 bikes, -1 AP helps their.
That's a good application of dakkajets IMO, given that we lack snipers in our army and kommandos don't have the dakka or survivability to take out most characters. I think it is however very dependent on how terrain is set up since characters can still hide in buildings or the corner of rocks fairly easily.
Also, is the magic number for boyz squads still 30 for footslogging lists? I've been trying 20 man mobz so far and I'm wondering if its worth the extra investment to get the extra attacks or to split up the boyz to give more options for objective grabbing.
I believe this is one of the reasons why bikes got such an uptick in points. Is that it give an entire other platform that can be used to fire in addtion to the normal weapons of the wielder.
Unfortunately for the most part this is not as good for our Orks as others (SM, Eldar) because the majority of our Ork bikers have only their bike guns and slugga (which cant be fired along with everything else).
I used this tactic with my Autarch Skyrunner to great effect. He got to fire his Twin Shuricats, Laser Lance, and Fusion Gun every turn.
I only play 1 army which is Orks and I'm an infrequent gamer as my limited time is split between my multiple interests.
I was planning on picking up the rulebook and Index come payday (end of the month) but now hearing the Codices are starting their run is giving me pause.... Should I wait for the codex to drop?
I know this year will be Mareens and Chaos heavy, but are we likely to see an Ork codex by Christmas/February? I've lost track of how many armies there actually are in the 40k universe as I only play casually with friends.
Ork book isn't coming for several months. The first 4 are SM, Grey Knights, Death Guard, and CSM. Death Guard is rumored for September. I'm sure a few xenos books are coming shortly after, but since the Ork model line is complete there isn't much priority for them. I figure Eldar need some plastic so they will be sooner than Orkz.
Are the Burnas worth taking over Slugga in every instance?
Want to run 1x15 with a Power Klaw just as a distraction )and because I've got access to Warhammer World easily so easy access to the conversion kit which I love).
Are the Burnas worth taking over Slugga in every instance?
Want to run 1x15 with a Power Klaw just as a distraction )and because I've got access to Warhammer World easily so easy access to the conversion kit which I love).
Burnas are always worth taking over a slugga. I would highly suggest you split that 1 big group into 3 little groups and take an extra HQ for a CP. PLUS 1 big Kommando unit = 1 Big Target. 15 Ork boyz with 6+ saves (ignoring cover and what not) aren't exactly frightening, nor can they threaten more then 1-2 units.
As for the TFG comment, I definitely have a blast with my opponents. I know this is going to stun you but I can enjoy my army while talking about how crap it is on the forums of a website. Usually the most common talking point is the Kustom jobz I have on my ork boyz including a couple center pieces like my Nob flipping the bird to everyone and my Kan stomping a Marines head flat
Other forms of conversation revolve around the Military since this is a military town.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Will the clans be getting specific sub faction rules like the ASStartes? Or just a rules update in a hardcover book?
I am really hoping they give the Klanz something, I also am really hoping for a heavy handed rewrite of our current codex. We have almost no synergy in the entire book beyond giving boyz more attacks and +1 WS, ohh and that over priced 6+ FNP and the relatively cheap and not very useful (in my opinion) 5++ from shooting.
And do you think they will make something for the Freebooterz? Those klanless Flash Gitz are really bothering me, it seems as though GW will ignore our space pirates...
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Ok anybody care to toss out ideas for clan specific "tactics". What are your "klan rulez"?
Goffs are going to be +1 attack. And then some stupid nonsense that somehow makes them less effective somewhere else like movement.
Evil Sunz are going to be Bikers = Troops and they get +1 to cover saves And then some nonsense about not being able to take walkers or Heavy vehicles.
Bad Moons will allow you to give +1 shots or maybe 4+ armor to flash gitz and throw ina leadership issue or something as a negative.
Snakebites, +1 toughness or +1 to FNP rolls but can't take ranged weapons/vehicles.
Blood Axes gives your kommandos +1 to cover and Looted vehicles but can't be within X inches of other Ork Klanz.
Deathskulls are going to give lootas a buff of some kind OR a 6++ or maybe a reroll 1s for ranged weapons. Not sure what their downside will be.
Also, is the magic number for boyz squads still 30 for footslogging lists? I've been trying 20 man mobz so far and I'm wondering if its worth the extra investment to get the extra attacks or to split up the boyz to give more options for objective grabbing.
It really depends. I've tried 10, 20 and 30 man squads. In smaller games - like 500 pt ones, 20 man squads are good enough. In larger games i go for 30 and 10. 30 for the main squads, 10 to fill troop slots. There are way fewer downsides to larger squads in 8-th than there were in 7-th. And some significant buffs.
To cut a long story short, we're bottom tier only above tau but will be on the last place after the uptade with an influx of tau wins that have been reported but haven't been accounted yet.
either that or your just totally screwing with my head Gungo 
, if you re-roll fours you get lower average results than when keeping them.
its the ork way! 
