So I am, perhaps foolishly attending a tournament with my recently updated Eldar, next weekend.

I have purchased a Wraithknight, and he will definitely be a prized item in my collection. But I am wondering, does he actually have a role in the competitive scene?

I am planning to model mine with the suncannon, and SL. That's ~295 points. for 3 S6 Ap2 TL Small blasts.

For 295 points, I can get a Wraithlord (SL and skyfire EML) and a squad of guardians to objective camp. Perhaps more useful. Or any other number of potentially more useful combinations.

The knight is a big, badass looking model, who can probably take a pounding. I want my opponent to shoot at him. This is how I played my wraithlords in the old codex. I want shots to go towards them. But will I regret taking him?

What are peoples thoughts? Good? Useless?

Where's my codex. that's my thought.

Who knows? Can we see the codex first?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Where's my codex. that's my thought.

'

Well, I guess i've spent a lil more time delving into the internet to find such things. 4chan had a bunch of scans posted for a while.

Given my situation, i've been searching high and low for as much information as I can

I don't think it will have a remotely controlling role that the other big MCs have. It's too tall to get a good cover save, it has no invul save in its base loadout, it has a 3+ AS and it has no cover ignoring template weapon. Additionally, it has base rules that make no sense such as a +1S sword (compared to dreadknight which lets you reroll hits, wounds and armor pen) and the ability to take 4 guns but can only fire 2.. Yes, you don't have to take 4 guns but WHY is it even an option? The WK screams to me of a unit that was very very quickly done and not play tested.

T8 doesn't mean a lot when people will be shooting it with rending, poison and anti tank weapons since it's simply too big and too expensive and lacks a 2+ save. I figured it would come with titan holo fields to give it a good cover save, however, I was mistaken.. it gets nothing.

These are some pretty huge deficiencies compared to the riptide and dreadknight (yes I know the riptide needs marker lights to ignore cover, but that shouldn't be an issue).

All in all, I feel it's too expensive to fulfill a competitive role.

2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

Nope, gonna be dead on the first turn.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nope, gonna be dead on the first turn.

How very insightful of you. Thanks for stopping by.

Quick question, what exactly is going to make it dead? And even then, my opponent just wasted every shot in his list making it so, while all my fragile and shooty stuff is still on the table.

Things such as lascannons and missle launchers are about the best thing around to make it dead. But as BS 4, you'd need 6*1.5(cover/invulsave)*2(T8)*1.5(BS4) = 27 krak missles shot at him to take him out. Your average Longfang spam list can't even manage that.

Lascannons? 6*1.5(coversave/invul)*1.5(T8)*1.5(BS4) = 20.25 lascannons.

My first thought on it was - everything on the table will be taking a shot at it as soon as possible, and like Kirasu said, it's going to have a tough time with unreliable cover and no invuln. This in and of itself might not be that bad if it was a cheaper model because there would other forces on the table that could take advantage but as it is it's going to be a very large sink.

Belly wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Where's my codex. that's my thought.

'

Well, I guess i've spent a lil more time delving into the internet to find such things. 4chan had a bunch of scans posted for a while.

Given my situation, i've been searching high and low for as much information as I can

Is life this short that we can't wait to see the codex and see how it performs in a game? Really?

I don't understand people's opinion that it'll die quickly. I can get an invul save easily, and putting a tiny part of the base into area terrain gives it a 5+. That's not unreliable at all.

As I mentioned, I don't have any issue with my opponent shooting at it. I found the same with my wraithlords, the more they get shot, the less my other more important stuff is getting shot.

Just trying to provide some counterpoints


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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Belly wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Where's my codex. that's my thought.

'

Well, I guess i've spent a lil more time delving into the internet to find such things. 4chan had a bunch of scans posted for a while.

Given my situation, i've been searching high and low for as much information as I can

Is life this short that we can't wait to see the codex and see how it performs in a game? Really?

Yes. My original post mentions why. Because I have a tournament to attend in a week, and I'd love to do well with the new codex.

It's a durable unit but I can't see it making its points back. The damage output seems to be too small compared to say two fire prisms. The potential is there and if you have a psyker healing his wounds he could be annoying.

That being said he doesn't have enough shooting or close combat potential in my eyes to,justify the cost.

Now lower point games I can see him being a monster house just because he only needs to hit certain units but in games of 1850 or 2000 I don't think it will be worth it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nope, gonna be dead on the first turn.

My beast hunter shells agree with you.

Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

am planning to model mine with the suncannon, and SL. That's ~295 points. for 3 S6 Ap2 TL Small blasts.

Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.

I think people are dramatically underestimating the resiliency of T8 and W6, particularly when you can heal it's wounds via Locks. You can torrent down a Riptide with small arms fire, small arms fire can't even touch the WK. That's a pretty massive difference.

Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....


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Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.

If you throw on a Scatter Laser the shots are likely to be twinlinked. The sun cannon is expensive but that is the one way I see running it.

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Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.



If you throw on a Scatter Laser the shots are likely to be twinlinked. The sun cannon is expensive but that is the one way I see running it.

Well, I don't have the codex yet. But from what I know is that the WK's base cost is 240 pts. I don't see the 55 pts being justifed.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.

Nope, with twin-linked from the scatter laser, 1.333/3 will scatter 3 inches.

And droppodding sternguard is the one thing i'd like my opponent to throw at it. HOW many points was that I get to kill for first blood?

Another advantage of the Suncannon is it's range. Keeping the WK at 47.9" will make him very difficult to deal with for most lists.

Ghostglaive/Scattershield Scatter Laser Star Cannon also seems like an interesting build.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Another advantage of the Suncannon is it's range. Keeping the WK at 47.9" will make him very difficult to deal with for most lists.

Ghostglaive/Scattershield Scatter Laser Star Cannon also seems like an interesting build.

Well, if you keep the WK in your backfield, you'll play it in a wrong way. This guy is also decent in cc mostly against troop units. I'd stay away from large (fearless) mobs or broods where it will get stuck, or from Assault Termies.

 wuestenfux wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Another advantage of the Suncannon is it's range. Keeping the WK at 47.9" will make him very difficult to deal with for most lists.

Ghostglaive/Scattershield Scatter Laser Star Cannon also seems like an interesting build.

Well, if you keep the WK in your backfield, you'll play it in a wrong way. This guy is also decent in cc mostly against troop units. I'd stay away from large (fearless) mobs or broods where it will get stuck, or from Assault Termies.

Yeah, you're probably right. It doesn't give him the option to stay clear of death stars while he bombards them though.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Another advantage of the Suncannon is it's range. Keeping the WK at 47.9" will make him very difficult to deal with for most lists.

Ghostglaive/Scattershield Scatter Laser Star Cannon also seems like an interesting build.

Well, if you keep the WK in your backfield, you'll play it in a wrong way. This guy is also decent in cc mostly against troop units. I'd stay away from large (fearless) mobs or broods where it will get stuck, or from Assault Termies.

Yeah, you're probably right. It doesn't give him the option to stay clear of death stars while he bombards them though.

Well, I'd keep the upgrades for him to a minimum and throw him in front of your army whenever possible. The enemy will need time to deal with him. In the meantime you could go for his throat. This should work at least in theory, but probably not with Eldar which I think is one of the worst armies out there.

Well, I'd keep the upgrades for him to a minimum and throw him in front of your army whenever possible. The enemy will need time to deal with him. In the meantime you could go for his throat. This should work at least in theory, but probably not with Eldar which I think is one of the worst armies out there.

You mean the codex that most people have yet to play a single game out of is probably the worst armies out there?

Wow.

Before you get too anxious, you have checked with your TO to make sure he will be allowing the new book, right? In my experience, new codexes are usually not allowed into tournaments when they first break, as familiarity would be limited and FAQs yet to drop.

Just a thought before you bombard us with questions we can't answer...

Now kids, in my day MC spam was a tyranid thing, now everyone's got some, often bigger, tougher, and stronger than ours.

Anyway, my Stonecrushers should mash up that giant quite well.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Before you get too anxious, you have checked with your TO to make sure he will be allowing the new book, right? In my experience, new codexes are usually not allowed into tournaments when they first break, as familiarity would be limited and FAQs yet to drop.

I have. It's fine.

With no 2+ save and only a 5+ invul from an upgrade, I'll be keeping mine in cover mostly, maybe with a warlock/farseer nearby for Shrouding.

 Shandara wrote:
With no 2+ save and only a 5+ invul from an upgrade, I'll be keeping mine in cover mostly, maybe with a warlock/farseer nearby for Shrouding.

On the other hand, with t8 only Dark Eldar, Immortals, Eldar with bladestorm guns, and Fire warriors can hurt it with their basic guns as far as troops go. And also plasma weapons are wounding at a 5+ at best, and tau plasma rifles are nearly useless, wounding at a measly 6+. Krak missiles and Lascannons though will have a field day with this thing.

Maybe take several warlocks, and try to get the healing psychic power.

Then have those warlocks stand around near the Wraithknights and heal them as they take damage.

Think about the unheard of Sniper Drone team in Tau, when you take the wraithknight.

at 24" there's a potential 27 shots at BS5, all of which wound your knight on 4+.

That's 22.5 hits

11.25 wounds, with about 2 rends.

I don't know about the wraithknights saves, but from what I've heard they're only save 3+ with no invulnerable save.

that means you'll take 2 wounds + 3 failed saves. If the wraithknight doesn't have more than six wounds, he's toast to me.

That's why you need cover (but of course Markerlights..) Still, the WK should be able to stay out of 24" easily and shoot them first.

 Shandara wrote:
That's why you need cover (but of course Markerlights..) Still, the WK should be able to stay out of 24" easily and shoot them first.

Well, not really. The Snipers are actually range 48", but with an ethereal in the squad and behind a quad gun ADL, (where they should be) they get 27 shots at 24" range. At 48" they still get 9 shots, which is enough to put out some damage still (well a third of that, really. so about two wounds a turn.)

Even if you have cover against the shooting, a good 4+ cover save (I very much doubt that a wraithknight will be able to claim cover often...) you only take a single less wound against this shooting that's still about 4 wounds total.

Sniper drones are very efficient when your opponent starts throwing around high toughness values. While they're no better than a seeker missile, their dealing with the wraithknights means that I can focus my big gun attention elsewhere.

Being stuck with only shooting 2 weapons really hurts, as if you could fire the scatter laser and then 2 heavy wraith guns he would be interesting. As is, I would keep him base cost with either spear or 2 wraith guns, and leverage the 12 inch movement as an assault unit. S10 does not stink in any way, and this guy brings it. Yes rending and poison are an embarrassing weakness, but for base cost 1 knight is not a real liability. When up against someone who can't deal with s10 t8 this guy really goes to town.

katfude wrote:
Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

Why would I b e pissed about losing maybe 3-4 wounds then assaulting a 350+ pt unit left to it's doom in my lines that cannot hurt it?

I'd love a delivery of the perfect unit for it to kill that's half again as costly as it! Might as well put a big Domino's pizza sign on the Drop Pod.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....

Plasma? Try 20 bolter shots that wound on 2s. Per pod. And anything worth doing is worth doubling. Yeah, you can pick him up now. If he still has a wound or two, a couple of stray tactical missles will finish the job. People always forget about the Sternguard's special ammo.

Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I think people are dramatically underestimating the resiliency of T8 and W6, particularly when you can heal it's wounds via Locks. You can torrent down a Riptide with small arms fire, small arms fire can't even touch the WK. That's a pretty massive difference.

Ya'll gonna be pissed when a pod full of sternguards BOOM HEADSHOT those big dorky knights turn 1.

I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....


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Well, that's too expensive. Three small blasts are not worth it. On average, two will scatter about 3''.

If you throw on a Scatter Laser the shots are likely to be twinlinked. The sun cannon is expensive but that is the one way I see running it.

Hellfire rounds wound on a 2plus, but then thats a over 300point unit of sternguard assuming 10 in a pod

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

Per Sternguard. You noticed I mentioned two. But in reality finding enough AP 3 in the rest of a list to deal the remaining 2.25 isn't hard. Eldar players need to rely on proper placement, cover choices, and bubblewrap to get the most out of their 300 pt MC. Try not to spread this misconception that T8 W6 is enough.

So just 2 Sternguard squads to take out 1 Wraithknight then?

In a list that big he may have 2 or even 3 Knights

T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

To answer the title; no, probably not.

So its the same points as two Wraithlords, about the same durability (ie somewhat lacking), faster but harder to hide. Also lacking awesome anti-horde double flamers.

I'd say the codex is crammed full of cheap AP2 now, in desirable places too. I'd ust keep it stock and keep it in reserve, then either deepstrike it into their backline or scare whatever comes close.

Lanlaorn wrote:
T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

Stonecrusher carnifex with endurance casted on it.

It's no tougher than 2 wraithlords, which I've seen survive past turn one zero total times.

What initative is it? Can it hurt a landraider easily before my Knights charge with some s10 ap2 godlyness?

Realistically Kroot sniper blobs will laugh at is and it's power armour save I know I Will and they are no were near the cost

Can it have feel no pain?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
O and sternguard can wound on 2+ with hellfire shells I used to run a ten man squad with Lysander for rerolls the swarm lord used to die to one round of shooting I can't see it lasting much longer

So - what I'm taking from this is that if I get first turn, I cast a psychic power or get him into area terrain and the wraithknight becomes even tougher to kill.

If I go 2nd, I reserve the wraithknight and turn up shooting.

What are the in/outs as far as people can see on the other builds of wraithknight - I'm thinking of using 1 with shield, suncannon and a scatter laser and one with the sword, shield and two starcannons.

Is there a worthwhile build with the wraithcannons?

Makes me want to get some more abyssal death marks for my necrons now. Totally seem worth it again! Just need a night scythe to survive dropping them off I guess lol.

Lanlaorn wrote:
T8, W6 and 5+ cover, 3+ armor is really tough. If you're talking about drop podding two squads of specialized units and anti-tank fire from the rest of your army at one unit, those 300 points are probably worth it just as a bullet sponge.

I mean what unit in the game would survive these crazy onslaught scenarios?

Lysander and 10 sternguards podding in 12" of the WK

They shoot 20 shots, hit 17 times thanks to lysander, wound 14 times.

You fail 4.9 times, cover not mattering.

This squad, all up costs about 485 points. IT can cost up to 50 points more, if players decide to take combi-weapons.

If you charge lysander's squad, you take 6 hits from overwatch, 5 wounds and you fail about 1.67 times.

Lysander+sternguard is a very dangerous combination. Even if you manage to get into combat, Lysander will wound you on 2's with his S10AP2 Thunder hammer, which gets 1 re-roll to hit.

Seriously. T8 is not as big as everyone wants it to be. You just need the right tools to deal with it. It's like people who say that a 3++ invulnerable save alone is better than a 2+5++. It really isn't. a 3++ doesn't take any more harm from AP1,2 and 3 weapons than anything worse, so it is perfectly acceptable to simply use your dragonfire bolts against them, for the 2+ wounding. a T8 model doesn't take anymore harm from a S8 weapon than he does from a lowly sniper rifle. There's no point in wasting high strength firepower to take down this "UBERAWESOMET8MONSTAH."

Depending on the list you play though.... I wouldn't be so worried about the Wraithknight to a certain extent as some of the other rumored units in the codex. Some of them just look nasty, and those drop pod stern guard will get chewed by Shurikan fire if the Bladestorm rules are correct.

It's going to be very dark for some alpha strike lists that rely on dropping in the Eldar deployment zone.

Also a Warlock can not only heal wounds, they are rumored to be able to improve saves, 2+ save T8....

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Depending on the list you play though.... I wouldn't be so worried about the Wraithknight to a certain extent as some of the other rumored units in the codex. Some of them just look nasty, and those drop pod stern guard will get chewed by Shurikan fire if the Bladestorm rules are correct.

It's going to be very dark for some alpha strike lists that rely on dropping in the Eldar deployment zone.

Also a Warlock can not only heal wounds, they are rumored to be able to improve saves, 2+ save T8....

Well that just makes it imperative to either ignore the knight, or kill it first turn. I am sure my army can do either.

Just a quick point Lysander can't go in a pod. And people say t8 isn't tough WTF if you don't play marines/de it's a nightmare. Gauss guns = no effect (plus no melta/missile in troops except expensive crypteks)
CSM = no special ammo bolters useless
Deamons= right bearly scratch it if pass all the tests to actually shoot (yes they can poison rend in cc)
Tau= bearly scratch it (bare snipers/suits)
Nids= see deamons (not counting hive guard)
All this and probably more that I've forgotten so t8 is a nightmare.

T8 is such a nightmare that Wraithlords are in every army and no one can kill them.

Oh wait...

That being said, GW wants to sell their big new shiney $140 (CAD) toy. I'd be surprised if it was not worth its point cost, on that basis alone.

Lets wait to really asses this until we see how the codex works. Although, I share the initial reaction that it might not be that tough given the 3+.

All of this stuff is well and good but hugely out of context from the real game. 2 Sternguard drop pods with Hellfire? So it's not scary because you can run a hugely specific, prohibitively expensive unit to deal with one (goodness only knows how you'd deal with 2)? Lysander with Sternguard is a Deathstar, which means you're using a Deathstar to not quite kill a single model? Come on. Even Grey knights fear these things; S4 force weapons are fine and dandy but you cannot touch T8. Let's look at the facts:

Wraithknights will often have fortune cast on them ASAP. This is Eldar we're talking about here. Good luck getting through T8 W6 with rerolled saves.

No-one will ever seriously just take one. It's either going to be 2 or allied with Riptides. What is your contingency plan to deal with 2/3 fast, tough MCs?

If a Wraithknight does charge a squad of MEQ, what can they do? They will always lose combat as T8 is immune to S4.

Necrons literally cannot realistically kill it in one turn. It averages 11 tesla destructors firing at it to kill. With Fortune, that becomes 33 (132 TL S7 tesla shots). Likewise, even 2x despairteks+10 Deathmarks only averages 5 wounds - that's 2 D&D squads.

They totally neuter the popular guard blobs. They take no damage from the overwatch and no damage from S4 power axes. One unit to tie up a massive tarpit literally all game? Yeah, that's amazing.

To kill one, you need a massive amount of fire power and you NEED to kill them fast as they're S10 I5 A4 MCs

Just because they're not invincible doesn't make them bad, not at all. The hole they fill is a useful one and Wraithlords don't really compare as they aren't Jump. It forces you to take a lot of rending/poison because otherwise you get thrashed. I wouldn't even upgrade them, being a Jump MC means you keep your toe in area and that's it - no Dangerous Terrain test as you're immune to them. These things can and will eat all of your heavy weapon shots. How can you deal with 2, on the grounds they've got an almost certain T2 assault? Can you deal with one supported by a Tau gunline? Can you kill it through fortune? People need to seriously look at their lists for this - it has 2 almost-railguns and is terrifying in assault. You need to be able to kill 2 without being totally crippled; can you do so? I doubt it for most armies currently. It's a fire magnet and IMO does its job very well.

Skullhammer wrote:
Just a quick point Lysander can't go in a pod. And people say t8 isn't tough WTF if you don't play marines/de it's a nightmare. Gauss guns = no effect (plus no melta/missile in troops except expensive crypteks)
CSM = no special ammo bolters useless
Deamons= right bearly scratch it if pass all the tests to actually shoot (yes they can poison rend in cc)
Tau= bearly scratch it (bare snipers/suits)
Nids= see deamons (not counting hive guard)
All this and probably more that I've forgotten so t8 is a nightmare.

Why can't lysander go in the pod?

Lysander is simply stopped from entering the Rhino or razorback. He simply takes up two transport slots in the 12-slot drop pod.

Also, I've already shown that tau can do A LOT to the wraithknight. You simply come here and make a sweeping generalisation that isn't even remotely true. do you know how irritating that is?

Don't just dismiss an armies potential. How about you actually think about what they can do, rather than saying they can't do it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:
All of this stuff is well and good but hugely out of context from the real game. 2 Sternguard drop pods with Hellfire? So it's not scary because you can run a hugely specific, prohibitively expensive unit to deal with one (goodness only knows how you'd deal with 2)? Lysander with Sternguard is a Deathstar, which means you're using a Deathstar to not quite kill a single model? Come on. Even Grey knights fear these things; S4 force weapons are fine and dandy but you cannot touch T8. Let's look at the facts:

Wraithknights will often have fortune cast on them ASAP. This is Eldar we're talking about here. Good luck getting through T8 W6 with rerolled saves.

No-one will ever seriously just take one. It's either going to be 2 or allied with Riptides. What is your contingency plan to deal with 2/3 fast, tough MCs?

If a Wraithknight does charge a squad of MEQ, what can they do? They will always lose combat as T8 is immune to S4.

Necrons literally cannot realistically kill it in one turn. It averages 11 tesla destructors firing at it to kill. With Fortune, that becomes 33 (132 TL S7 tesla shots). Likewise, even 2x despairteks+10 Deathmarks only averages 5 wounds - that's 2 D&D squads.

They totally neuter the popular guard blobs. They take no damage from the overwatch and no damage from S4 power axes. One unit to tie up a massive tarpit literally all game? Yeah, that's amazing.

To kill one, you need a massive amount of fire power and you NEED to kill them fast as they're S10 I5 A4 MCs

Just because they're not invincible doesn't make them bad, not at all. The hole they fill is a useful one and Wraithlords don't really compare as they aren't Jump. It forces you to take a lot of rending/poison because otherwise you get thrashed. I wouldn't even upgrade them, being a Jump MC means you keep your toe in area and that's it - no Dangerous Terrain test as you're immune to them. These things can and will eat all of your heavy weapon shots. How can you deal with 2, on the grounds they've got an almost certain T2 assault? Can you deal with one supported by a Tau gunline? Can you kill it through fortune? People need to seriously look at their lists for this - it has 2 almost-railguns and is terrifying in assault. You need to be able to kill 2 without being totally crippled; can you do so? I doubt it for most armies currently. It's a fire magnet and IMO does its job very well.

I don't remember saying 2 sternguard drop pods. I only mentioned a single one with Lysander.

if you charge a S4 unit with T8, the S4 unit can simply run away. The rule is called "Our weapons are useless."

How do you people comment on tactics without actually understanding the rules you're trying to rely on? Assault with a T8 model is actually a hinderance, because your opponent can choose to flee if he can't wound it. You can't tarpit a unit if they can run away and get away with it.

As I have pointed out, a single Tau sniper team can place 5 markerlights on it, as well as do 5 wounds at a range of 24". IF you actually htink you're going to close to use those S10 attacks, you're sorely mistaken.

Yeah, Tau will come down on MCs like the WK like a freight train. Insane amounts of S7 and sniper shots can be fired. Ion-heads and Riptides laugh at T8 too.

Daemon MCs don't really have a problem killing anything. Unless the WK has EW, 'Thirsters are gonna have a field day.

Lucarikx

If you use "Our weapons are useless", you're in severe danger of being swept because it's I5 compared to I3. Not really a good option, at least in combat you get to tarpit it so it isn't killing anything else and you won't lose a huge chunk of models. Even if they get ATSKNF, you're then locked in combat. A bad idea indeed. If they have fearless, then you can't even use that rule to begin with. As I said, it's really pretty terrifying because it'll be supported by an army. 20 sniper kroot do... 2.78 wounds, if it has no cover and if all of them are in range. That's terrible. S7 wounds on 5+ and unless it's AP3 has a 1/9 chance to do anything (assuming it autohits and the Wraithknight doesn't have Fortune). Again, unless you're firing 54 S7 shots which autohit, you're doing diddly. At the end of the day, even if you use all of your shooting and just about kill one model... is that a victory for you? It's not got huge damage potential and you're still facing most of an army. I think people are severely underrating this threat.

Yeah, my 30 Sniper Kroot would like to meet your WK and see how it fares...

I wasn't talking about 140 points worth of kroot killing half your wraith knight, however that's actually pretty astounding. I don't see how oyu can think that's terrible?

Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

Lysander is in terminator armour. Please explain why terminator armour means he can't enter a drop pod?

Do you actually read these rules or just make assumptions. Terminators may not enter drop pods because they can't take them as DTs. There is nothing forbidding a TDA captain from entering a DP with its alotted squad.

"Terminators count as two models for the purposes of transport capacity and may not embark upon rhino's or razorbacks."

Y'know what? the FAQ says nothing to the contrary.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I wasn't talking about 140 points worth of kroot killing half your wraith knight, however that's actually pretty astounding. I don't see how oyu can think that's terrible?

For the points on a one-to-one basis, it's not. However, it's also unrealistic. That scenario means the kroot didn't move (as the sniper is heavy), you spent 140 points on a frail troop blob and the Wraithknight blundered into full range. If any of those things don't happen, you do almost nothing. My point was Sniper Kroot are about the worst thing the Wraithknight can face (Riptides can be ID'd by the faux-railguns, plus die in combat; Hammerheadfs don't do close to enough damage and die almost instantly in combat; S5/6 weapons do almost nothing as they wound on 6+, even when they're AP3/2) and still it doesn't care that much. Anyway, my point is this - it will draw fire from the rest of your army as no-one can leave it alive; it wrecks fire support units/tanks/any vehicles/MCs. Sure, it will die every game. Is that really a huge loss to you? You've drawn 1500+ points of firepower and barely died. That's 1500 points not firing at your troops, other shooting elements or HQs. Heck, if you want to see how good that is look at jy2's last batrep and replace a Riptide+fire warrior squad with a Wraithlord. What armies could deal with that if the MCs pushed forwards? Not many. So yeah, it changes the game because everyone now needs to be able to deal with T8 W6 fast MCs which currently, not a lot of tournament winning armies can do.

Skullhammer wrote:

Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
.

All Daemons have Invulns, so pseudo-rending has no effect. Also, why would GD need 6s to wound? They can smash for S10, and wound on 2+.

Well, for a BT you might not want to do that, since all To Wound rolls(for him) of 6 are ID.

Lucarikx

Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

my first impression of the WK is that it would be amazing with fortune. but it appears that everyone else has a different opinion...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

I believe he is talking about the guns that the Wraith guard have. They are star 10 ap1 and cause instant death on a to-wound roll of a 6.

Skullhammer wrote:
Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

And 6's to wound from BT is instal kill....

And Lysander has no issue in fitting in a drop pod by the way.

MarkyMark wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
Lysander is in termie armour so no pod,
Greater deamons needing 6's (no charge bonus added) to wound that's if the rest of the eldar army let's them get there you know, rending light catapults,
This is not to say it can't be delt with it can but the question was is it a good choice to take and as the majority of weapons in the game can't hurt it I say yes it's a good choice, long range fast and tough plus wounds can be healed (if the right powers are around).

And 6's to wound from BT is instal kill....

And Lysander has no issue in fitting in a drop pod by the way.

Thankyou. I thought I was going crazy for a minute there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Do you know what sniper drones are?

They're the threat, not kroot.

Please explain to me how these "Faux-railguns" can ID a riptide? do they have a rule that allows them to do so? and what weapon is it that causes this to occur?

Who seriously uses sniper drones in the quantities needed though? Unless you're putting them next to an Ethereal and the Wraithknight inexplicably advances again, you're doing almost no damage. Even then, you need 9 Sniper Drones to kill one. Who are these people taking at least 148 points worth of sniper drones in a single unit over an Ionhead/Sky Ray? Why are they when against anything else the Hammerhead is statistically superior (or Sky Ray for AA support)? If they kill your spotter, you are now BS 2 and really bad, so he needs to either be very protected or there needs to be more than one, pushing up the points again. The Heavy Wraithcannons of the Wraithknight ID on a 6 due to their "Disort" special rule. Pretty scary vs MCs if you ask me, especially as they're 36" range. As I said, it's not unkillable, it's just ridiculously hard to do so without list tailoring.

If the cannon is only 36" range, a Riptide will decimate the WK with its 72" range.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
If the cannon is only 36" range, a Riptide will decimate the WK with its 72" range.

Lucarikx

On a 6'x4'? Really? You think firing 3 S7 AP2 shots at 72" will stop it? 36" is enough that unless the Riptide is in the corner, it will be in range. If the Riptide is in the corner, your job is done anyway - it's wasting its shots to rarely hurt you (even at BS5 with no cover the riptide averages less than 1 wound per turn) and you're advancing. Come on, the Riptide is good but it's not an MC destroyer by any means.

I like how people bring out the x kills x arguments again.

1: Kroot are not a threat. You have range on them, you have mobility on them, and no one fields kroot snipers in quantity.

2: Anything with krak grenades CANNOT use "our weapons are useless". They have a weapon, the grenade, that can be used. However, you need 36 grenades to put a single wound on the wraithknight at ws4-.

3: While DE are a problem, no one else has poisoned range weapons that are a threat. Even nids arent going to be a problem as you can move faster than they can. Plus the gaunts are required to be within 6" of the terv to have poison.

4: Who takes sternguard anymore? I havent seen anyone fielding them in over a year. Putting lysander and sternguard in a pod is stupid. 500+ points in a pod to not even kill the wraithknight before you get tied up in combat.

5: Beast killer shells need a vanquisher that hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, and then possible cover saves. In addition to being an obvious threat, its only usable in one army in the game, the armored company. With the look of the new eldar codex, there are all sorts of toys to deal with high armor value.

6: This thing is harder to kill than a tervigon with IA. Especially since it can simply avoid melee. Most people bitch to no end at how hard tervigons are to deal with.

7: MC vs MC this thing could have problems, but why would i let any MC without wings engage this thing? Its a jump MC. Also, very few MCs have grenades, meaning sitting this thing in terrain is allowing me to hit first. That removes DP from the list of threats.

I think people are dramatically underestimating the resiliency of T8 and W6, particularly when you can heal it's wounds via Locks. You can torrent down a Riptide with small arms fire, small arms fire can't even touch the WK. That's a pretty massive difference.

I'd agree that a Wraithknight is very durable. However, I don't know that I feel it is worth taking. 240 points base gives you two heavy wraithcannons, which are pretty decent. Adding on Scatter Lasers costs 20 points each, and you cannot fire all four weapons. Even if it could, the role is relatively confused. What is it ideally targeting?

The Eldar HS section is crowded, and the Vaul's Wraith Support Battery is so incredible that it will be hard to pass on them, especially for an overpriced MC.

My 2 cents is that regardless of the price and the toughness debate, the real shame is that this is in the HS section instead of the Elite or (less likely) FA section like Tau Riptide is.

As for the cost.. I dunno 240 or so is about what you'd pay for a fully kitted out Riptide correct? So I can see how that number came about. But the Tau Riptide feels much more.. difficult to kill I suppose considering the Novacharge rules, 5+ FNP from the Stimulant (did say fully kitted out) skyfire or interceptor rules, and 2+ Armor save. And for those that say that you lose ML support from the Riptide that's true. But you gain psyker support from the Warlock/Seer side of their dex.

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

Right I am not going to pretend I know the rules for the wraith knight other than those that I have read on this thread. I am a long time fan and player of eldar I particularly love wraith constructs and anything harlequin but there are a few points that I simply want to bring to peoples attention:

1. If it has no cover or invulnerable what about paying 75pts for a skyshield? If you are playing objectives you can place one of yours on this and have the wraith knight and some troops stood atop it shielded giving everyone 4+ invulnerable also anyone charging is initiative 1 unless they have grenades.

2. Everyone seems to be saying this unit could take it out in two turns, for only half the points. But what doesn't APPEAR to be taken into account is the shots it can put down itself. From what I have heard it can put down 3 str6 ap2 small blasts. Those could easily destroy most 10 man units in a single turn and if you are a risk to the wraith knight then its probably going to be targeting that unit with those big guns/sword/other nasties I am not aware of.

3. When people are shooting the wraith knight I believe it is a jump MC so its going to be fast and maneuverable so it might be able to break line of sight (unlikely i know but possible), or get out of range.

4. Even when/ if it goes down to do so it will take a lot of fire power off the rest of the army which means that other wraiths, aspects or tanks can get into position alive(!) and then do what they were supposed to.

5. Sure it might be cheaper and more effective to take two wraith lords but it also takes up an extra heavy support slot which i have heard are just as crammed as before meaning every slot has to be as damaging as possible even if it isn't the most efficient use of points.

P.S I am not making sweeping statements I know there will always be exceptions to what I have said. Also I have said that my knowledge is purely from this thread on the wraith knight so if it is incorrect I apologise as nothing has even been released in England yet. Also I am not arguing with people I just want people to see all points.

Just some thoughts. While expensive, it will draw fire away from the rest of your army. Who doesn't like taking down a giant robot? It makes you feel very accomplished taking a MC that big down. Drop Podding things near it? Sure you've killed it, but that leaves your units in the open now.

Things that come to mind that can take it are basically anything with poison or snipers. Nurgle comes to mind. Plague Bearers and Drones have poisoned attacks. Long Fangs with Rune Priests. Tyranids with poisoned attacks. How's its leadership? Multiple Psychic Shrieks, Pink Horrors with Tzeentch Heralds. 4-6D6 shots that reroll and are Str 6. Vector Strikes from Bloodthirster, Heldrake, and Lord of Change. Force Weapons. Power Laws, Dreads, Kills Kans. Las cannons. This is just turning into a list of what can hurt it now. . .

Once again, it'll take some focus taking it out. And a lot of those things can be taken out by the rest of your army. If you've got one already, let us know how it goes. If you haven't got one yet, wait and see how they do. Personally, 300 points is too much for a MC that doesn't fly. If there was a way to add mech wings to it, I'd say it would be worth it. But as it stands, insert tall reference here, anything will be able to shoot at it.

 JGrand wrote:

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

Totally agreed JGrand. I was really only stacking it up against it's current dex/most recent competitor in the new MC department. Which to be fair, everyone is pretty much in love with as the versatility and impact of the Riptide is quite nice on the Tau codex. I'm certain GW was shooting for a similar impact with the Wraithknight, although it seems they may have fallen a bit short without giving it a proper low Armor save or some form of Invuln save. Or, changing nothing in its statline/wargear and giving it It Will Not Die.

In fact, I'm kind of shocked it doesn't have IWND considering the rest of the statline.

culsandar wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I find this proposition unlikely. It takes 27 Plasma shots on average to kill a WK. I'm not aware of a single unit that can pull this off. Oh, and this is assuming no Invuln or Cover....

Plasma? Try 20 bolter shots that wound on 2s. Per pod. And anything worth doing is worth doubling. Yeah, you can pick him up now. If he still has a wound or two, a couple of stray tactical missles will finish the job. People always forget about the Sternguard's special ammo.

20 shots will take 3.7 wounds off of him. So it will take more than a stray tactical krak missile to take him down. 2 squads could reasonably do it in one turn, but that is what 600 points to put down a 250 point model. Sternguard all clustered together to get into rapid fire range arent difficult for eldar to kill.

10 sternguard in a pod are great, but they die like 10 marines off in a distant land after they hit their target.

I think 10 scouts with camo cloaks sniping him every turn would be a better buy. They will get him in 4 turns, cost far less, and can camp a home objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JGrand wrote:

It seems to me the Wraithknight trades much of that for protection against cheap volume of fire which is rejected by its T8 statline. Also the Wraithknight is a beast in CC compared to the Riptide. All told feels like you have to treat this as a riptide with a different purpose and strategy. The fact that it falls into a crowded part of the dex is a shame since on the Tau side you're just comparing the Tide to (realistically) Crisis Suits, which if you're hard up for you can bring in via Commanders.

A beast in close combat in comparison to the Riptide--sure. A beast in close combat in general--not really. WS 4, 4 attacks isn't really that incredible.

at least it is str10, no need to smash.
init4 helps a bit

FEARLESS is huge. Chasing a riptide down is hilarious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreyDragoon wrote:
My 2 cents is that regardless of the price and the toughness debate, the real shame is that this is in the HS section instead of the Elite or (less likely) FA section like Tau Riptide is.

As for the cost.. I dunno 240 or so is about what you'd pay for a fully kitted out Riptide correct? So I can see how that number came about. But the Tau Riptide feels much more.. difficult to kill I suppose considering the Novacharge rules, 5+ FNP from the Stimulant (did say fully kitted out) skyfire or interceptor rules, and 2+ Armor save. And for those that say that you lose ML support from the Riptide that's true. But you gain psyker support from the Warlock/Seer side of their dex.

The riptide is much much much better. 2+ saves save it from a lot of AT, and posion. The 5++ standard is great. The possibility of a 3++ make it dam near unkillable that turn. It's weapons area also better. Pie plate of doom is awesome. The heavy burst cannon is also awesome if you charge it.

Just because the riptide is better, does not mean that the WK sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

culsandar wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Yeah....that's 3.75 wounds.

Per Sternguard. You noticed I mentioned two. But in reality finding enough AP 3 in the rest of a list to deal the remaining 2.25 isn't hard. Eldar players need to rely on proper placement, cover choices, and bubblewrap to get the most out of their 300 pt MC. Try not to spread this misconception that T8 W6 is enough.

only half of the drop pods come down turn 1 in drop pod assault. So you would need 3 pods to get 2 units down turn one.

As has been mentioned before, dropping down next to eldar is a bad idea. With the new rules, an objective camping guardian squad can wipe your sternguard the turn after they land.

I wonder if there's a way to make a guard blob have rending flashlights....

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Area terrain is a very clear rule right? If so then they are not being that guy. They are playing by the rules.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Well... except people are well within reason to talk about terrain prior to the start of the game. If someone said they don't think a crater "area terrain" should give a cover save to non-infantry models, I would be hard pressed to disagree.

Playing CSM and GK I'm thinking I'll probably have to ignore it. All I can think about is a Wraithknight getting Invisibility cast on it every turn. I'll just try to kill everything but the WK and not get tabled by whatever firepower it brings.

This is all off the cuff of course. I don't know the rules for this thing. Everything is getting bigger while all I want is more troop oriented games.

Wait...wouldn't having S6 guns mean that the MC best able to tank it's shots...would be another wrath knight?

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

Pretty much. The terrain rules are a framework which is supposed to be filled out between you and your opponent. I know I wouldn't let Wraithknights hide in a crater (now a forest on the other hand...).

Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

 Shandara wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

Doesnt matter how fast it is, a drop pod right in front of you means I hit you, the line is also 24 inches, Im not sure it can get that far unless its a flier. Also if its going to be monstrous it will be -1 initiative. Now if they use some psykers that deny me or make me roll 3d6 test there might be some problems but if it really has a low leadership SW players wont care how big or scary he is.

I dont understand what people's complaint is about the WK getting cover from area terrain. Its right in the book, all non-vehicles get cover from area terrain. Only vehicles have any exception. Im sorry i play by the rules dictated in the book. The ones that every other army gets to play by. Just because they dont make sense..... this is 40k remember. Half the rules in the game dont make sense.

The skyshield is even MORE explicit in its rules. EVERYTHING gets a 4++ inside it, even in melee. This includes tanks or MCs.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

Sir if you say your tank can get a save from it. And my giant robot can't you go be that TFG else where. Seriously, i shouldn't have to model my GIANT ROBOT crouching to get some decent saves logically. Talk about limiting my creativity with a giant model, all because you have a rules scuff. And if my GIANT robot wants to use a sky shield as a shield - i am damn well going to model this, and laugh. Size is unimportant for cover, you should be happy you can always shoot the stupid thing.

Seriously though the rules are clear, and if you don't like it, dont shoot it, it doesn't put out a dangerous amount of world ending fire power.

Winged Daemon Prince with Balesword.

Catch it easy, swing first, wound on 4+, Ap2, instant death.

Between Wraithknights, Dreadknights, and Riptides, my Nurgle Daemon prince model is getting dusted off and returned to the table.

It is just too expensive for its output. Its basic weapons are reasonably okay anti-tank but with moderate Bs and no mechanism to ignore cover, its not going to be popping heavy armour at a whim.

The suncannon is cute but most opponents will just hug cover. The suncannon add on takes it up to 280 and adding a scatter laser for the re-rolls takes it to an even 300. That is not worth it for 3 weak plasma cannon shots. For the same cost you could get 10 dark reapers which would pump 20 bs4 str5 ap3 shots that ignore jink into the opponent. That's much cooler.

With 4 attacks and ws4 unless it has a ghost glaive (dear god why would you do that) you're putting two hits on a squad in close combat. Needless to say it you ever throw it forward the opponent is just going to tarpit it.

I like the model but in most circumstances I see a pair of wraithlords outperforming it easily.

If you're going to one run at all, I'd go default equipment and use it to hunt light enemy armour. Just pray the opponent pays attention to it.

 zephoid wrote:

The skyshield is even MORE explicit in its rules. EVERYTHING gets a 4++ inside it, even in melee. This includes tanks or MCs.

Only when the doors are up. Anybody know if you can fit one of those huge bases inside a skyshield with the doors up?

Wraithknight I see as an anchor/counter assault while it pounds away with its suncannons.

The real killers in the new dex is the Shadow Weavers, Wave Serpents, Dark Reapers, and Jet Bikes.

Seriously Eldar can out artillery anyone w/ the Vauls Work batteries.

 agnosto wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

The skyshield is even MORE explicit in its rules. EVERYTHING gets a 4++ inside it, even in melee. This includes tanks or MCs.

Only when the doors are up. Anybody know if you can fit one of those huge bases inside a skyshield with the doors up?

It definitely can, you can probably fit 2 of them up there.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

The skyshield is even MORE explicit in its rules. EVERYTHING gets a 4++ inside it, even in melee. This includes tanks or MCs.

Only when the doors are up. Anybody know if you can fit one of those huge bases inside a skyshield with the doors up?

It definitely can, you can probably fit 2 of them up there.

Cool, didn't realize the skyshield was that big.

Belly wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Nope, gonna be dead on the first turn.

How very insightful of you. Thanks for stopping by.

Quick question, what exactly is going to make it dead? And even then, my opponent just wasted every shot in his list making it so, while all my fragile and shooty stuff is still on the table.

Things such as lascannons and missle launchers are about the best thing around to make it dead. But as BS 4, you'd need 6*1.5(cover/invulsave)*2(T8)*1.5(BS4) = 27 krak missles shot at him to take him out. Your average Longfang spam list can't even manage that.

Lascannons? 6*1.5(coversave/invul)*1.5(T8)*1.5(BS4) = 20.25 lascannons.

Well, each Venom with double Splinter Cannons is putting about 1.5 saved wounds on it. So I guess you're fine unless you play an opponent who has a few Venoms. That's just at 36". Once you get to 24", Warriors are going to bend that Wraith Knight over.

MC w/ 3+ save = dead on the first turn.

 cormadepanda wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
2 of them on a skyshield=win. problem solved. Also, they can stand in area terrain for a 5+ because of the changes in 6th.

T8 simply means they need to take the AT fire off tanks. I plan on running 2 with 2 warp hunters and advancing the wraithknight to make them a threat. T8 also means they can take down just about any infantry squad. Even powerfists are going to be underwhelming.

No offense, but if anyone ever tried to do that I would never play against them, those kinda tactics scream TFG. I understand RAW but thats too much of a stretch. Sadly I know many will probably argue the area terrain thing, and will try to claim a cover save for this thing in something like a crater that barely covers it's feet.

Yea, wouldn't want to play against people who use Area Terrain...

Before I come off too snooty. There are no exemptions for the size of the model in area terrain. It is a valid way to get around AP3 weapons.

Granted I understand its clear rule, but due to the size of the model some common sense should be exercised, and as someone suggested I would talk to the opponent before the match to see what counts as area terrain in terms of a unit that big. Same with the sky shield tactic .

Sir if you say your tank can get a save from it. And my giant robot can't you go be that TFG else where. Seriously, i shouldn't have to model my GIANT ROBOT crouching to get some decent saves logically. Talk about limiting my creativity with a giant model, all because you have a rules scuff. And if my GIANT robot wants to use a sky shield as a shield - i am damn well going to model this, and laugh. Size is unimportant for cover, you should be happy you can always shoot the stupid thing.

Seriously though the rules are clear, and if you don't like it, dont shoot it, it doesn't put out a dangerous amount of world ending fire power.

I never said my tank could get a save from the sky shield, honestly the sky shield was intended for flyers and deepstrikers. When the sky shield came out I was excited at the prospect about using it for artillery but found that it was inherently unfair and was not intended for that use. Please excuse my arrogance for trying to have a semblance of realism and balance in this game.

Fortune and renewer will be the WKs best friend.

Also, if you want to take Scorpions or Banshees in Wave Serpents, a sword and board WK would make a pretty good running buddy.

On the topic of jaws:

I thought it makes it harder to kill MC's with it so it'd only fail on a 6 for an initiative test if it was I4.

Also, wouldn't runes of warding and DtW still be a big problem to get through? (did they change runes of warding?)

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

Doesnt matter how fast it is, a drop pod right in front of you means I hit you the line is also 24 inches, Im not sure it can get that far unless its a flier.

He means it has a high Initiative, which is good vs. JotWW.

Also if its going to be monstrous it will be -1 initiative.

It's -1 to the roll which makes it easier for the MC to pass it.

but if it really has a low leadership SW players wont care how big or scary he is.

you lost me as to how Ld matters for the Wolves in particular.

sudojoe wrote:I thought it makes it harder to kill MC's with it so it'd only fail on a 6 for an initiative test if it was I4.

You are correct. Tankboy is mistaken. Hopefully he doesn't play Wolves much...

You are correct. Tankboy is mistaken. Hopefully he doesn't play Wolves much...

phew, I thought I was going crazy there for a sec and was misplaying these past years.

Also apparently runes of warding are gone now so forget what I wrote up there. Can get a 3+ DtW with some fancy artifact though.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

Doesnt matter how fast it is, a drop pod right in front of you means I hit you the line is also 24 inches, Im not sure it can get that far unless its a flier.

He means it has a high Initiative, which is good vs. JotWW.

Also if its going to be monstrous it will be -1 initiative.

It's -1 to the roll which makes it easier for the MC to pass it.

but if it really has a low leadership SW players wont care how big or scary he is.

you lost me as to how Ld matters for the Wolves in particular.

sudojoe wrote:I thought it makes it harder to kill MC's with it so it'd only fail on a 6 for an initiative test if it was I4.

You are correct. Tankboy is mistaken. Hopefully he doesn't play Wolves much...

My bad I read that backwards and figured it was easier but no I do not play wolves often I just started playing them as allies about a few months ago.

Also for the Ld part I did mean initiative, I was thinking of something else at the same time lol.

I think a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. Of course, it has counters, snipers, poison etc etc. Every unit does.

However, the real question, is if it's cost is worth the firepower it puts out-I say not even close. In it's base configuration, it gets two strength 10 shots a turn, which would be great if you're seeing a lot of vehicles, or this was 5th, but against such an infantry heavy meta it's not that good. Even if it survives the whole game, those strength 10 shots are just not worth it's cost. The Suncannon upgrade, makes it nearly 300 points. You get a much more meta-suited weapon, but You're almost 1/4th of your points on a single model at that point. Honestly though, I don't feel that Eldar are going to really have any problem with infantry. With Psuado-rending on most every weapon. Another thing it has going against it, is the fact that there are so many good units in the HS section. You can get almost two prisms for the cost of a single base Wraith Knight, and they can perform both Anti-tank and Anti-infantry. The Nightspinner is also really good, even the support weapons are great.


Overall, the Wraith Knight is plenty survivable. It just lacks the firepower that comes with it's huge pricetag.

 Sasori wrote:
I think a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. Of course, it has counters, snipers, poison etc etc. Every unit does.

However, the real question, is if it's cost is worth the firepower it puts out-I say not even close. In it's base configuration, it gets two strength 10 shots a turn, which would be great if you're seeing a lot of vehicles, or this was 5th, but against such an infantry heavy meta it's not that good. Even if it survives the whole game, those strength 10 shots are just not worth it's cost. The Suncannon upgrade, makes it nearly 300 points. You get a much more meta-suited weapon, but You're almost 1/4th of your points on a single model at that point. Honestly though, I don't feel that Eldar are going to really have any problem with infantry. With Psuado-rending on most every weapon. Another thing it has going against it, is the fact that there are so many good units in the HS section. You can get almost two prisms for the cost of a single base Wraith Knight, and they can perform both Anti-tank and Anti-infantry. The Nightspinner is also really good, even the support weapons are great.


Overall, the Wraith Knight is plenty survivable. It just lacks the firepower that comes with it's huge pricetag.

Fair points Sasori.

The more I think about it, the more I think the best way to use it is aggressively (Sword and Board, maybe with some extra pewpew via SL+Some other Secondary weapon). Make it a target they have to deal with, and then back it up with fortune and renewer. Then you are actually getting mileage out of its legit resiliency. Also, if they don't deal with it, then they have an MC crushing through their lines.

Also, Wraithknight plus two Wraithlords in a Wraith list might be a good way to swarm your enemy with T6 and T8 targets. Get them shooting at the WK, and the rest of the Wraiths will be freer to do what they do.

It's too early to say how effective it will be. At this point it's still mostly speculation. It could be really good if it has the right synergy with other good units. At worst I don't think it will be all that bad. T8 is pretty darn good.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I think a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. Of course, it has counters, snipers, poison etc etc. Every unit does.

However, the real question, is if it's cost is worth the firepower it puts out-I say not even close. In it's base configuration, it gets two strength 10 shots a turn, which would be great if you're seeing a lot of vehicles, or this was 5th, but against such an infantry heavy meta it's not that good. Even if it survives the whole game, those strength 10 shots are just not worth it's cost. The Suncannon upgrade, makes it nearly 300 points. You get a much more meta-suited weapon, but You're almost 1/4th of your points on a single model at that point. Honestly though, I don't feel that Eldar are going to really have any problem with infantry. With Psuado-rending on most every weapon. Another thing it has going against it, is the fact that there are so many good units in the HS section. You can get almost two prisms for the cost of a single base Wraith Knight, and they can perform both Anti-tank and Anti-infantry. The Nightspinner is also really good, even the support weapons are great.


Overall, the Wraith Knight is plenty survivable. It just lacks the firepower that comes with it's huge pricetag.

Fair points Sasori.

The more I think about it, the more I think the best way to use it is aggressively (Sword and Board, maybe with some extra pewpew via SL+Some other Secondary weapon). Make it a target they have to deal with, and then back it up with fortune and renewer. Then you are actually getting mileage out of its legit resiliency. Also, if they don't deal with it, then they have an MC crushing through their lines.

Also, Wraithknight plus two Wraithlords in a Wraith list might be a good way to swarm your enemy with T6 and T8 targets. Get them shooting at the WK, and the rest of the Wraiths will be freer to do what they do.

I personally think the Sword is the worst upgrade. It should do fine in Melee with it's base config, or suncannon for 40 points. It's not worth loosing it's ranged power, for a 5++, since you don't benefit the +1s for the Sword. I just wouldn't send it against actual dedicated close combat units.

 Sasori wrote:
I think a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. Of course, it has counters, snipers, poison etc etc. Every unit does.

However, the real question, is if it's cost is worth the firepower it puts out-I say not even close. In it's base configuration, it gets two strength 10 shots a turn, which would be great if you're seeing a lot of vehicles, or this was 5th, but against such an infantry heavy meta it's not that good. Even if it survives the whole game, those strength 10 shots are just not worth it's cost. The Suncannon upgrade, makes it nearly 300 points. You get a much more meta-suited weapon, but You're almost 1/4th of your points on a single model at that point. Honestly though, I don't feel that Eldar are going to really have any problem with infantry. With Psuado-rending on most every weapon. Another thing it has going against it, is the fact that there are so many good units in the HS section. You can get almost two prisms for the cost of a single base Wraith Knight, and they can perform both Anti-tank and Anti-infantry. The Nightspinner is also really good, even the support weapons are great.


Overall, the Wraith Knight is plenty survivable. It just lacks the firepower that comes with it's huge pricetag.

I was thinking this as well, it's a pain to kill but its fire output is extremely weak... it's like a Tyrannofex.

Why does everyone base an argument off it being T8?
Is that really such a big thing?
So no triple wraithlord armies have been beaten before?


Its Large size is only beaten by its stupidly high points cost.
Its damage output really is bad to the point i'd consider ignoring it and firing at more worrying things, like dragons or reapers.

Its not toughness that makes a MC a scary prospect these days.

Its a mixture of its save (2+ is a nice start)
It needs a ++ save. (even a 5++ will do)
Needs to be fairly decent size so it can make use of cover.
Needs to be able to move quickly (wings or boosters, both work)
Needs to either be a menace in CC or shooting.

This thing really does not fill any of the criteria for being something special.
It simply stands there and causes a small quantity of damage while being shot at in return.
All this for the small cost of, well, i think its possibly the most expensive single model in 40k thus far in terms of monsters.

Riptide - It drops a hail of fire, it has impressive saves, it moves like a bat out of hell.
This thing is a beast in what it does. (avoiding combat and long range warfare)

Swarmlord - Just shy of the same points cost, except its one of/The best MC in CC.
Again, it has a job and it does it well.


This erm, thing?
It has no real job or idea what its ment to be doing.

I personally think the Sword is the worst upgrade. It should do fine in Melee with it's base config, or suncannon for 40 points. It's not worth loosing it's ranged power, for a 5++, since you don't benefit the +1s for the Sword. I just wouldn't send it against actual dedicated close combat units.

The sword is also mastercrafted, which helps. Its the only way to get the 5++ without spending another 30 on the Suncannon though. Although, if you turn around and get secondary weapons, that point becomes moot as well.

Good points though. Suncannon+SL might the best way to go. In an army with fortune I just can't see not getting it the 5++. And, as you said, in the current Meta the primary config is more limited on ideal targets. Vehicels, MCs, Quad Guns and artillery are probably the most relevant applications. T5/4 Multi-wound and FNP models are also generally pretty decent targets.

It's to bad you can't use the SL and fire all three weapons with the base config. That would be a pretty nasty little unit for 260 points. You could go based config+SL+Starcannon for some versatility, but you're still in pretty expensive range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Why does everyone base an argument off it being T8?
Is that really such a big thing?
So no triple wraithlord armies have been beaten before?

A big difference here is you couldn't give WLs 5++ and you can't cast fortune on two WLs at once. Essentially, you can do that with the WK.

Its not toughness that makes a MC a scary prospect these days.

Its a mixture of its save (2+ is a nice start)
It needs a ++ save. (even a 5++ will do)

It can take a 5++, and T8 3+ is superior to T6 2+ against the vast majority of weapons. Sure, Dark Eldar are the one exception to this rule.

Needs to be fairly decent size so it can make use of cover.

Not with a 5++

Needs to be able to move quickly (wings or boosters, both work)

Its a jump MC.

Needs to either be a menace in CC or shooting.

Its a hybrid. Its more of a menace shooting then a Swarmlord, by infinity, and more of a CC threat then a Riptide. Use both abilities, or you will end up quite disappointed, as you illustrate.

Putting 1 or 2 in a list is a great idea. The reason? Because a few army builds will forget or choose not to take the anti wraith knight options and get destroyed by the thing in its base set up. However the rest of your list needs to focus on dealing with infantry and light armor like venoms. IMHO, shadow weavers and wraiths in wave serpents are all ready going to be work horses for the eldar, and the addition of the wraith knight compliments them for the most part. 6 shadow weavers is still a force to be reckoned with that the wraith knight doesn't greatly diminish your barrage ability.

Also, if you ground a flying daemon prince, the 2 s10 wraith shots will be golden, and in cover it will swing before said daemons, allowing you a chance to instant death them with your base s10.

The way to approach the wraith knight is not to center your army around it, but pay a mere 240 point tax to dominate a few matchups and reserve it versus the bad matchups to give your main army 2 turns to silence the most dangerous guns. I for one think the wraith knight is a good addition to an otherwise well rounded eldar force. The 12 inch move alone makes it have a permanent spot in any eldar list I make as fast close combat units are the only real cc options worth taking.

A big difference here is you couldn't give WLs 5++ and you can't cast fortune on two WLs at once. Essentially, you can do that with the WK.

You can also hide WL's in cover for such a save.

It can take a 5++, and T8 3+ is superior to T6 2+ against the vast majority of weapons. Sure, Dark Eldar are the one exception to this rule.

Vast majority of weapons?
Granted, standard weapons can hurt the riptide, but its got the range to keep out of the way.
Also, missiles and plas really dont care much about a 3+.

Its a hybrid. Its more of a menace shooting then a Swarmlord, by infinity, and more of a CC threat then a Riptide. Use both abilities, or you will end up quite disappointed, as you illustrate.

See, funny thing is, hybrid units really dont work all that well.
Armies will bring in certain units for the jobs that need doing, and each unit will do the job well.
The knight kinda just sits in the middle though.
It will be out shot in a firefight and beat to death in combat against any unit dedicated to it.

There really is no use for a unit thats a jack of all trades and a master of none.

You can also hide WL's in cover for such a save.

Well, they are still MCs and you need to get 25% coverage, but fair point.

Also, missiles and plas really dont care much about a 3+.

True, but they care about the T8 and a potentially re rollabe 5++.

See, funny thing is, hybrid units really dont work all that well.

Grey Hunters? Purrifiers? I don't know, I think versatility is a good thing.

will be out shot in a firefight and beat to death in combat against any unit dedicated to it.

There are a lot of dedicated close combat units that can't touch the WK. I mean, a lot. Orcs (except maybe a PK, which won't do much), Wyches, ASM, Grey Hunters, Even most of the Grey Knight units are praying on a single Hammer. Some MCs will give it fits (but it will trump many other MCs), and Hammernator units will give it fits. And anything with poison, unless of course you have fortune cast on it, in which case even poison isn't that big of a threat.

There really is no use for a unit thats a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Perhaps, although I tend to disagree.

True, but they care about the T8.

Whats worse though, someone having to rely on a 4-5+ to wound you and not giving a save, or them wounding on a 2-3+ and you allways having that save?

Grey Hunters? Purrifiers? I don't know, I think versatility is a good thing.

Hunters not soo much, they really arent all that amazing.
Purifiers, ill give you that one, they do both pretty well.
I think thats a combination of GK's though, most of the units have a power weapon and stormbolter as standard or better.

of dedicated close combat units that can't touch the WK. I mean, a lot. Orcs (except maybe a PK, which won't do much), Wyches, ASM, Grey Hunters, Even most of the Grey Knight units are praying on a single Hammer. Some MCs will give it fits (but it will trump many other MCs), and Hammernator units will give it fits. And anything with poison, unless of course you have fortune cast on it, in which case even poison isn't that big of a threat.

Orks, wyches, hunters etc really arent that good, i wouldnt class them as dedicated combat units.
For a combat unit, it needs to have a way to deal with each situation.
2/3 of those are S3, which IMO makes them useless to begin with.
Wyches have no ability to remove saves, but ill give them a saving grace for having haywires.

Hammernators really are what i had in mind since they are the 1st thing that springs to mind when i say about a dedicated CC unit.

Perhaps, although I tend to disagree.

Often ive seen people say how things like marines are amazing all rounders.
I then watch them get shot to bits or torn to shreds in combat.
If you need a unit to do a job, why rely on one that might get it done when you can take something that will get it done?
I just dont like having to rely on a bit of luck, i rather use a dedicated unit that i know will perform how i want it to.

The Sword is a terrible terrible option sadly, you pay 5pts to re-rolled 1 missed attack in assault and get a 5++, but give up BOTH S10 AP2 weapons. Sure you could then buy it heavy weapons again on top of that, but that loadout ends up costing 290pts and is significantly worse than the base 240pt loadout. Its perfectly viable in combat without the Sword and 5++, the only things that threaten it in assault aren't going to care about a 5++ anyway (TH/SS Terminators still crush it either way, and it won't save you against GK Terminators and anything with an ID ability).

I definitely think the base loadout is the best, its 2 S10 AP2 shots at BS4 that most of the time will be firing for an entire game. It has 12" movement so it can avoid combats with things that can hurt it (and don't kid yourselves, there are things that will bury this thing in combat, which is why the CC loadout is terrible) and you have to put an entire army worth of shooting into it for multiple turns to kill it. There are a few armies that might shoot it to death, but against Dark Eldar for example you can deploy in a back corner and avoid all his shooting, and then start punching Venoms out of the sky (its going to kill 1 per turn by itself).

In any case they certainly aren't overpowered, its basically just two Wraithlords strapped together. I can't see myself taking more than 1 though, since you don't see that much heavy armour and Prisms/Nightspinners (S8 against Necrons if you hadn't realised that yet) and the rest of the Heavy slots are all worth a look.

Powerguy wrote:
The Sword is a terrible terrible option sadly, you pay 5pts to re-rolled 1 missed attack in assault and get a 5++, but give up BOTH S10 AP2 weapons. Sure you could then buy it heavy weapons again on top of that, but that loadout ends up costing 290pts and is significantly worse than the base 240pt loadout. Its perfectly viable in combat without the Sword and 5++, the only things that threaten it in assault aren't going to care about a 5++ anyway (TH/SS Terminators still crush it either way, and it won't save you against GK Terminators and anything with an ID ability).

I definitely think the base loadout is the best, its 2 S10 AP2 shots at BS4 that most of the time will be firing for an entire game. It has 12" movement so it can avoid combats with things that can hurt it (and don't kid yourselves, there are things that will bury this thing in combat, which is why the CC loadout is terrible) and you have to put an entire army worth of shooting into it for multiple turns to kill it. There are a few armies that might shoot it to death, but against Dark Eldar for example you can deploy in a back corner and avoid all his shooting, and then start punching Venoms out of the sky (its going to kill 1 per turn by itself).

In any case they certainly aren't overpowered, its basically just two Wraithlords strapped together. I can't see myself taking more than 1 though, since you don't see that much heavy armour and Prisms/Nightspinners (S8 against Necrons if you hadn't realised that yet) and the rest of the Heavy slots are all worth a look.

Honestly, I think it's biggest short coming, is it's cost for firepower, is just out-shined by the rest of the heavy support section. Nightspinners, and Fire Prisms are both insanely good.

Well it has similar firepower to 2 Prisms, but better durability (T8 and AV12 are pretty similar against most anti tank weapons, but the Lord has a 3+ save against some of it). Its surprisingly balanced basically. The assault ability could come in handy as well, I expect Jetbikes/Spiders to be the core of most armies and having a big S10 counterpunch unit (that can keep pace with them) is certainly worth considering.

For a combat unit, it needs to have a way to deal with each situation.

No combat unit can deal with each situation though. There is a definite paper>rock>scissors aspect to CC in this game. Generally speaking, Hammers kill MCs, MCs kill hordes/basic troops, hordes/basic troops kill hammers.

TH/SS Terms, which, like you said, is everyone's go to, die pretty horribly to horde based CC units.

the only things that threaten it in assault aren't going to care about a 5++ anyway (TH/SS Terminators still crush it either way, and it won't save you against GK Terminators and anything with an ID ability).

I think you are forgetting about Fortune, which is quite relevant. Also, the 5++ helps against shooting too.

Plus, I think you are overestimating the TH/SS Terms here a bit. Throw a fortuned WK against 6 TH/SS Terms (roughly equal point cost). The WK kills ~1 Term/turn, and the GK do ~ 1 wound/turn at full strength, but that will steadily diminish over the course of the fight. It's a much closer fight then you think, and I certainly would not describe the results as TH/SS "crushing" the WK. Outside of super CC MCs, and mass poison, this is probably the WKs weakest match up too.

Powerguy wrote:
Well it has similar firepower to 2 Prisms, but better durability (T8 and AV12 are pretty similar against most anti tank weapons, but the Lord has a 3+ save against some of it). Its surprisingly balanced basically. The assault ability could come in handy as well, I expect Jetbikes/Spiders to be the core of most armies and having a big S10 counterpunch unit (that can keep pace with them) is certainly worth considering.

Well, AV12 with a 4+ cover save is pretty good, but I agree the Wraith Knight is more durable. The Prisms have the three firing options however, which I rank superior to two strength 10 shots. You can also fire two prisms, and two separate targets.

You forget, you can cast the eldar psychic power to make it a 2+ save, and I think there is another that gives it a cover save.

So an eldar player has several options that can mitigate most of the complaints in this thread. Also, while your riptides are shooting the WK, that Waveserpent with the WG can drop them off within range for the kill with impunity.

Durandal wrote:
You forget, you can cast the eldar psychic power to make it a 2+ save, and I think there is another that gives it a cover save.

So an eldar player has several options that can mitigate most of the complaints in this thread. Also, while your riptides are shooting the WK, that Waveserpent with the WG can drop them off within range for the kill with impunity.

Those spells have to be targeted on the psyker and their unit.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Seems like a scary model but if it has low initiative, Space wolf players are going to use jaws on these things all day.

Luckily it's Eldar so it's fast. And a Monstrous Creature to boot.

Doesnt matter how fast it is, a drop pod right in front of you means I hit you, the line is also 24 inches, Im not sure it can get that far unless its a flier. Also if its going to be monstrous it will be -1 initiative. Now if they use some psykers that deny me or make me roll 3d6 test there might be some problems but if it really has a low leadership SW players wont care how big or scary he is.

I thought MC got a -1 to the roll for Jaws, not their initiatitve? Since it's an inititative test that makes them harder to kill. So basically the WK would only fail on a 6.

A 10 strong unit of deathmarks in rapid fire will down it in a turn, mabey even at longrange if lucky.

Sasori wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Well it has similar firepower to 2 Prisms, but better durability (T8 and AV12 are pretty similar against most anti tank weapons, but the Lord has a 3+ save against some of it). Its surprisingly balanced basically. The assault ability could come in handy as well, I expect Jetbikes/Spiders to be the core of most armies and having a big S10 counterpunch unit (that can keep pace with them) is certainly worth considering.

Well, AV12 with a 4+ cover save is pretty good, but I agree the Wraith Knight is more durable. The Prisms have the three firing options however, which I rank superior to two strength 10 shots. You can also fire two prisms, and two separate targets.

Yeah those Prisms are very tasty, S9 Lance is very nice because it is AP1 as well, so I finally have a way to punch through those annoying Necron Barges. I've brought one WK because they look amazing, but I suspect I will end up going back to Prisms as well. The main issue is number of slots, since I want to try and fit in 1-2 Nightspinners as well, since a S8 pie plate on side armour which can also rend against vehicles is pretty nice. Interestingly it also very effective against two of the most popular units around, Wraiths (it jumps to S8 so you ID them, which forces them to spread out, which makes them easier to pick off with other shooting) and Guard Blobs with Marine characters (against jumps to S8 due to majority I of 3, and you can drop it on the Marine/s to kill them off).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

For a combat unit, it needs to have a way to deal with each situation.

No combat unit can deal with each situation though. There is a definite paper>rock>scissors aspect to CC in this game. Generally speaking, Hammers kill MCs, MCs kill hordes/basic troops, hordes/basic troops kill hammers.

TH/SS Terms, which, like you said, is everyone's go to, die pretty horribly to horde based CC units.

the only things that threaten it in assault aren't going to care about a 5++ anyway (TH/SS Terminators still crush it either way, and it won't save you against GK Terminators and anything with an ID ability).

I think you are forgetting about Fortune, which is quite relevant. Also, the 5++ helps against shooting too.

Plus, I think you are overestimating the TH/SS Terms here a bit. Throw a fortuned WK against 6 TH/SS Terms (roughly equal point cost). The WK kills ~1 Term/turn, and the GK do ~ 1 wound/turn at full strength, but that will steadily diminish over the course of the fight. It's a much closer fight then you think, and I certainly would not describe the results as TH/SS "crushing" the WK. Outside of super CC MCs, and mass poison, this is probably the WKs weakest match up too.

GK Terminators and any of the Daemon characters with the ID sword are far worst matchup, because they both just have to get a single wound through. The WK can fight TH/SS Terminators even without the Shield really, trim them down and rely on T8 to live for a turn or two while you finish the last few off. On the flip side he is never going to be able to fight stuff with ID even with the Shield, which is why its a terrible upgrade. On that note its worth pointing out that Eldrad is an incredible MC hunter now, 2/3 attacks with 2's to wound and you ID a Tervigon etc. Also WK vs WK shooting matches will be hilarious.

I don't expect much GK terminators or heck GK much anything to survive the amount of elder and tau shooting now a days.

Marines are going to be so easily torrented off the board with all the high str, ignore cover, and lots of AP2 weapons these armies are sporting now a days.

 sudojoe wrote:
I don't expect much GK terminators or heck GK much anything to survive the amount of elder and tau shooting now a days.

Marines are going to be so easily torrented off the board with all the high str, ignore cover, and lots of AP2 weapons these armies are sporting now a days.

Yup.

Marines were rumored next, right? We'll see how goes for them in the new codex, and we can get some ideas how the other chapters will be.

Drop two of them behind enemy lines via Deep Strike (as it's Jump MC) and cause some havoc , this may even force the oponent to Deep Strike his drop pods on his deploy zone, allowing you to deal better with CC Deathstars with the rest of your army

Wyrdeone wrote:
Winged Daemon Prince with Balesword.

Catch it easy, swing first, wound on 4+, Ap2, instant death.

Between Wraithknights, Dreadknights, and Riptides, my Nurgle Daemon prince model is getting dusted off and returned to the table.

Just FYI, this won't work on the Dreadknight. Your sword is a Demonic Gift, and the Dreadknight has the Dark Excommunication Psychic Power, which "in the assault phase, before any blows are struck" allows you make any demonic gift "cease to work".

He's LD 10, so there's a very high chance you'd be punching the DK with your fists while he responds with his S10 AP2 Instant Death weapon, lol.

Unless it was FAQd after the recent codex change, it does't work. It's a 'Greater Reward, and the reward itself doesn't do anything in-game, it just allows you to purchase a piece of wargear (not a daemonic gift).

Scratch that - Dark Excommunication does work - the wargear is listed in the army entry under a category 'Daemonic Gifts'

Sloppy codex writing...

Lanlaorn wrote:

Wyrdeone wrote:
Winged Daemon Prince with Balesword.

Catch it easy, swing first, wound on 4+, Ap2, instant death.

Between Wraithknights, Dreadknights, and Riptides, my Nurgle Daemon prince model is getting dusted off and returned to the table.

Just FYI, this won't work on the Dreadknight. Your sword is a Demonic Gift, and the Dreadknight has the Dark Excommunication Psychic Power, which "in the assault phase, before any blows are struck" allows you make any demonic gift "cease to work".

He's LD 10, so there's a very high chance you'd be punching the DK with your fists while he responds with his S10 AP2 Instant Death weapon, lol.

Can't use Dark Excommunication AND the force weapon because DK can only use one power per turn.

 agnosto wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

Wyrdeone wrote:
Winged Daemon Prince with Balesword.

Catch it easy, swing first, wound on 4+, Ap2, instant death.

Between Wraithknights, Dreadknights, and Riptides, my Nurgle Daemon prince model is getting dusted off and returned to the table.

Just FYI, this won't work on the Dreadknight. Your sword is a Demonic Gift, and the Dreadknight has the Dark Excommunication Psychic Power, which "in the assault phase, before any blows are struck" allows you make any demonic gift "cease to work".

He's LD 10, so there's a very high chance you'd be punching the DK with your fists while he responds with his S10 AP2 Instant Death weapon, lol.

Can't use Dark Excommunication AND the force weapon because DK can only use one power per turn.

Yea but S10 still IDs the T5 Prince. You'll still own the WK or Riptide though.

I think the new wriathknight is amazing!

Today in my local GW, I used the legs (since it was all that i built) to represent the model. It still towered over thr swarmlord, whom i saw for the first time and was very disappointed with its size!

Anyway - wraithknight (cc) vs swarmlord on the charge brought down the swarmlord to 3 wounds

And also the shooty wraithknight variant took out an entire squad of deathwing terminators from dark vengeance in its round of shooting.

I am more of a hobbyist than a painter and maybe why i am getting so excited!

tau will be able to take your WK down without a problem. so many guns they bring are high str, can ignore cover, and have a TON of shots. but honestly...

if your fire out put is what your saying 3x str 6 small blasts, i just ignore the thing and use the above to blast the rest of your army. then, when he is by himself, pelt him with missile pods, fusion guns, etc. if he tries to get up close and combat, well his cover is easilly ignored by markerlights, and once again, a bunch of fusion will make him a smoking crater in about 1 turn.

dark eldar just load up the poison weapons... in about a quarter of my army my DE can put out close to 100 splinter shots. hit on 3+ wound on 4+. you have 6 wounds? great.,... make 37 saves. buh bye.

necrons can do the same with a bunch of easy to obtain tesla destructers on fliers. yea i wound on 5+ but the amount of shots its taking is going to make up for it. deathmarks with some crypteks... heck, even a basic overlord (mss,ws,weave) can take one down. even if you DONT beat yourself into paste first.

IG can have so many high str long range weapons... its not even a factor. ive seen a 1500pt gaurd list with 12 lazcannons and 10 auto cannons. plus melta vets and some other toys. with orders... that WK is going to have a bad day.

chaos... well, from what i have seen they can put down a pretty good amount of high str low AP shots as well. certainly enough to remove a squad of space marines, so i dont see your WK standing up to that... because really he is just a super tough SM.

3+ is not hard to bypass. force enough saves and it goes down hard. toughness 8, while a litle better is still hurt by anything str 7 and up. throw enough of those shots at it, and it drops like a 140$ sack of rocks. i would not deem it as a competetive unit for tourneys - based on the little information i have about it. obviously seeing it in action and watching it bypass those above mentioned tidbits will change my mind... but im not thinking it will. it lacks any kind of speed or mobility, like a riptide or a DK. (with teleporter) it has no invun save, and relies on cover, wich can be countered easy. its armor save is moderate, and alot of things get past it. heck even basic power weapons. the riptide/DK at least have a 2+ first.... and finally its weapon options are no better then a pair of smaller units. 2 wraithlords can take simaler guns, but target seperate units, and probally do better in CC, and cost about the same. plus they are easier to hide.

if your going wraithknight - i think you need 2 or more. 1 will take fire and get shot to pieces. 2, however might last a bit longer and live to inflict some pain.

Tau throw out a lot of S7 AP4, S6 AP2, and S10 AP1 at range. Not a lot else. Of those, only the S10 AP1 is effective at wounding the wraithknight. Fusion guns are relitively short range and on models that the WK IDs both in shooting and melee. If you dont kill the wraithknight the turn they fire, the crisis suits are probably gone or nearly gone. S5 AP5 shooting is ineffective as you will be saving marker lights for bigger guns. you need 36 pulse rifle shots to put a single wound on the WK. A whole 2k tau army would struggle to put down 1 WK per turn with all its shooting.

If a whole DE army is throwing everything at killing 1 wraithknight, i say good. 100 poison shots is about a 2k army, and if a 2k army is only killing 240 points of mine in a turn of shooting, thats fine with me. "throw poison at it" is nice in theory, but even with said 100 shots you still have a pretty decent chance of the WK surviving 37 saves.

If you throw everything at the WK, its a great distraction unit. Its much cheaper than him shooting down 2-3 vehicles and some of your infantry. If he ignores the WK, well you can advance and make him deal with it while putting out some pretty decent fire. Once it gets in punching range it becomes a pretty high target priority. Therefore he has to deal with it or start losing squads. Thats why i like the stock 240 configuration and still call it effective.

I know it was a few pages back but Tau can take kroot snipers at 7pts each....sniper drones, ion heads.

Personally, if I consistently see these, I'll run a Tau/Grey Knight list. Vindicare to shield-breaker the invul-save item then double wound him til he drops the vindicare, outflanking kroot sniper team comes on to play later. or just run them gunline for larfs. If he assaults anything, I'll jump the dreadknight in to finish him off. If he's a daemon (haven't seen the rules but there was talk of the sword being a daemonic gift earlier) GKs will laugh until they fall over and treat him like a weak GUO.

You just ignore the WK. Its 240 stock and against most armies it's just pinging a couple troops a turn if that. If it gets into CC a couple turns down the line who cares, 4 ws4 attacks is trash. It will take it 6 turns to kill 10 MEQ in HtH. 10 MEQ<240

Honestly I am more afraid of the Support weapons and the heavy tanks. Heck even Vypers are nasty again. There are way more threatening things then a WK.

It's funny that people keep mentioning pouring more points into it to get a 5++ as then it's even more likely to be ignored as it has no useful ranged attack without inflating it EVEN MORE! Ha ha, and fortune is pouring even more points and syncing more units together for minimal return.

I think its a sweet model, and could understand running one stock but it sure as heck isn't going to be the work horse of that book. Heck, I find it funny that all the new books hard counter themselves so well, shuriken weapons and doom will destroy that guy fast. I would bring max GJB before I took a WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:


If a whole DE army is throwing everything at killing 1 wraithknight, i say good. 100 poison shots is about a 2k army, and if a 2k army is only killing 240 points of mine in a turn of shooting, thats fine with me. "throw poison at it" is nice in theory, but even with said 100 shots you still have a pretty decent chance of the WK surviving 37 saves.

Hilariously enough, the WK isn't a character like his smaller cousin, meaning one hidden flesh gauntlet is all it takes to drop that sucker in a gory explosion

I like it stock or with sword/board and Starcannons.

I'll still prefer WLs now that they can have a sword plus two weapons and no TL idiocy. Plus one more attack and no Wraithsight.

 DarthSpader wrote:
tau will be able to take your WK down without a problem. so many guns they bring are high str, can ignore cover, and have a TON of shots. but honestly...

if your fire out put is what your saying 3x str 6 small blasts, i just ignore the thing and use the above to blast the rest of your army. then, when he is by himself, pelt him with missile pods, fusion guns, etc. if he tries to get up close and combat, well his cover is easilly ignored by markerlights, and once again, a bunch of fusion will make him a smoking crater in about 1 turn.

dark eldar just load up the poison weapons... in about a quarter of my army my DE can put out close to 100 splinter shots. hit on 3+ wound on 4+. you have 6 wounds? great.,... make 37 saves. buh bye.

necrons can do the same with a bunch of easy to obtain tesla destructers on fliers. yea i wound on 5+ but the amount of shots its taking is going to make up for it. deathmarks with some crypteks... heck, even a basic overlord (mss,ws,weave) can take one down. even if you DONT beat yourself into paste first.

IG can have so many high str long range weapons... its not even a factor. ive seen a 1500pt gaurd list with 12 lazcannons and 10 auto cannons. plus melta vets and some other toys. with orders... that WK is going to have a bad day.

chaos... well, from what i have seen they can put down a pretty good amount of high str low AP shots as well. certainly enough to remove a squad of space marines, so i dont see your WK standing up to that... because really he is just a super tough SM.

3+ is not hard to bypass. force enough saves and it goes down hard. toughness 8, while a litle better is still hurt by anything str 7 and up. throw enough of those shots at it, and it drops like a 140$ sack of rocks. i would not deem it as a competetive unit for tourneys - based on the little information i have about it. obviously seeing it in action and watching it bypass those above mentioned tidbits will change my mind... but im not thinking it will. it lacks any kind of speed or mobility, like a riptide or a DK. (with teleporter) it has no invun save, and relies on cover, wich can be countered easy. its armor save is moderate, and alot of things get past it. heck even basic power weapons. the riptide/DK at least have a 2+ first.... and finally its weapon options are no better then a pair of smaller units. 2 wraithlords can take simaler guns, but target seperate units, and probally do better in CC, and cost about the same. plus they are easier to hide.

if your going wraithknight - i think you need 2 or more. 1 will take fire and get shot to pieces. 2, however might last a bit longer and live to inflict some pain.

You severely underestimate this thing. The Wraithknight is as durable without cover/invuln as a Riptide. Necrons need 11 Tesla Destructors on average to kill it, far more than almost any list has. That IG firepower doesn't kill it in one turn either. S7 is really quite poor against the Wraithknight and non-AP3 S7 is practically useless (you're looking at 16/17 shots per wound assuming BS4). Really, the only times the Wraithknight isn't as durable as the Riptide is against S8 AP2/3 and poison. The Wraithlords may be easier to hide but they're also not jump, so considerably slower to reach combat. I dunno, there's just a ton of negativity around this guy when it's not even bad. S10 AP2 guns with the chance to ID is god and it's no slouch in assault either. I'm not sure in a pure Eldar army you'll see them over support weapons (9 S10 AP2 barrage small blasts for 450 points looks amazing to me) but as allies to Tau, it's something I'd like to see. I mean, if someone puts 2 Riptides and a Wraiithknight on the table, do you focus on the things with a higher damage output whilst the Wraithknight pretty much eats a unit per turn, or do you kill the Wraithknight and weather the storm of fire? Nothing else really fills that slot of very durable, fast and dangerous.

I'm not 100% sold on it, but it's certainly better than a lot of people are making out. I agree that you either need 2 or some other huge threat though but then that's the same as any monstrous creature.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I like it stock or with sword/board and Starcannons.

I'll still prefer WLs now that they can have a sword plus two weapons and no TL idiocy. Plus one more attack and no Wraithsight.

Pretty much this. MSU is effective for a reason, even on larger scales, two halves of a wraith knight (2 WL) are better then one. Factor in his insane cost and generally hes only worth it is 2000 pt games where you now have 6 HS slots anyway. He seems like a fun unit that will rock the unprepared but I don't think he is a very competitive option. He will struggle to gain more then LB which hawks get much easier for cheaper and he will preserve a VP in BGNT but that's about it apart from being sexy looking


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
tau will be able to take your WK down without a problem. so many guns they bring are high str, can ignore cover, and have a TON of shots. but honestly...

if your fire out put is what your saying 3x str 6 small blasts, i just ignore the thing and use the above to blast the rest of your army. then, when he is by himself, pelt him with missile pods, fusion guns, etc. if he tries to get up close and combat, well his cover is easilly ignored by markerlights, and once again, a bunch of fusion will make him a smoking crater in about 1 turn.

dark eldar just load up the poison weapons... in about a quarter of my army my DE can put out close to 100 splinter shots. hit on 3+ wound on 4+. you have 6 wounds? great.,... make 37 saves. buh bye.

necrons can do the same with a bunch of easy to obtain tesla destructers on fliers. yea i wound on 5+ but the amount of shots its taking is going to make up for it. deathmarks with some crypteks... heck, even a basic overlord (mss,ws,weave) can take one down. even if you DONT beat yourself into paste first.

IG can have so many high str long range weapons... its not even a factor. ive seen a 1500pt gaurd list with 12 lazcannons and 10 auto cannons. plus melta vets and some other toys. with orders... that WK is going to have a bad day.

chaos... well, from what i have seen they can put down a pretty good amount of high str low AP shots as well. certainly enough to remove a squad of space marines, so i dont see your WK standing up to that... because really he is just a super tough SM.

3+ is not hard to bypass. force enough saves and it goes down hard. toughness 8, while a litle better is still hurt by anything str 7 and up. throw enough of those shots at it, and it drops like a 140$ sack of rocks. i would not deem it as a competetive unit for tourneys - based on the little information i have about it. obviously seeing it in action and watching it bypass those above mentioned tidbits will change my mind... but im not thinking it will. it lacks any kind of speed or mobility, like a riptide or a DK. (with teleporter) it has no invun save, and relies on cover, wich can be countered easy. its armor save is moderate, and alot of things get past it. heck even basic power weapons. the riptide/DK at least have a 2+ first.... and finally its weapon options are no better then a pair of smaller units. 2 wraithlords can take simaler guns, but target seperate units, and probally do better in CC, and cost about the same. plus they are easier to hide.

if your going wraithknight - i think you need 2 or more. 1 will take fire and get shot to pieces. 2, however might last a bit longer and live to inflict some pain.

You severely underestimate this thing. The Wraithknight is as durable without cover/invuln as a Riptide. Necrons need 11 Tesla Destructors on average to kill it, far more than almost any list has. That IG firepower doesn't kill it in one turn either. S7 is really quite poor against the Wraithknight and non-AP3 S7 is practically useless (you're looking at 16/17 shots per wound assuming BS4). Really, the only times the Wraithknight isn't as durable as the Riptide is against S8 AP2/3 and poison. The Wraithlords may be easier to hide but they're also not jump, so considerably slower to reach combat. I dunno, there's just a ton of negativity around this guy when it's not even bad. S10 AP2 guns with the chance to ID is god and it's no slouch in assault either. I'm not sure in a pure Eldar army you'll see them over support weapons (9 S10 AP2 barrage small blasts for 450 points looks amazing to me) but as allies to Tau, it's something I'd like to see. I mean, if someone puts 2 Riptides and a Wraiithknight on the table, do you focus on the things with a higher damage output whilst the Wraithknight pretty much eats a unit per turn, or do you kill the Wraithknight and weather the storm of fire? Nothing else really fills that slot of very durable, fast and dangerous.

I'm not 100% sold on it, but it's certainly better than a lot of people are making out. I agree that you either need 2 or some other huge threat though but then that's the same as any monstrous creature.

OK fine, so now explain to us why we shouldn't ignore it? It's damage output is miserable for it's cost. Your comment about it eating a unit a turn is hilarious. It's also false.

with my 2k venom list, i have 108 shots JUST from the venoms. thats not counting anything i have from the troops inside, or my fliers. (troops inside provide another 24-48 shots) then i have blasters and other stuff.

now, correct me if im wrong but 108 shots (wich costs me 540pts to get btw) will hit on 3+. and im at 36" range. 1/3 miss, so 72 hits. of those hits, lets say half wound. thats 36 wounds on the WK. youll save 2/3 of those with 3+ armor = 24 saves but 12 get past. thats DOUBLE your available wounds. good bye.

and if the splinter cannons fail, i have lances, blasters, and the troops on board to finish you off. and the best your WK can do in return is kill a single 173pt unit IF he pops one of the trueborn venoms and all the guys inside.

and your argument that i just spent my entire army shooting at you... not true. all the units inside those transports can fire at other targets. and we havent even discussed my fliers or fast attack units (wich varies between bikes, hellions and beasts) - now granted this is more of a 5th ed list then 6th, (my 6th DE is still being tweaked, but puts out simaler if not more splinter shots) - so just saying.

 DarthSpader wrote:
with my 2k venom list, i have 108 shots JUST from the venoms. thats not counting anything i have from the troops inside, or my fliers. (troops inside provide another 24-48 shots) then i have blasters and other stuff.

now, correct me if im wrong but 108 shots (wich costs me 540pts to get btw) will hit on 3+. and im at 36" range. 1/3 miss, so 72 hits. of those hits, lets say half wound. thats 36 wounds on the WK. youll save 2/3 of those with 3+ armor = 24 saves but 12 get past. thats DOUBLE your available wounds. good bye.

and if the splinter cannons fail, i have lances, blasters, and the troops on board to finish you off. and the best your WK can do in return is kill a single 173pt unit IF he pops one of the trueborn venoms and all the guys inside.

and your argument that i just spent my entire army shooting at you... not true. all the units inside those transports can fire at other targets. and we havent even discussed my fliers or fast attack units (wich varies between bikes, hellions and beasts) - now granted this is more of a 5th ed list then 6th, (my 6th DE is still being tweaked, but puts out simaler if not more splinter shots) - so just saying.

Seriously though, I have flesh gauntlets in my list for units like this. An aberration will pour out 6-7 attacks that wound on a 4+ and cause intant death if he fails one save.

Oh and as for necrons, I don't think they will fire telsa considering MSS from a destroyer lord and some wraiths seriously tune that guy up in a couple CC phases. Irritating example I know, but that unit is still the premier counter assault shock and awe unit for a reason.

yes. but that was a single example. i also tend towards more shooting lists in 6th, necrons included.

the end argument i am making is toughness 8 is nice... but only a 3+ save and no easy invun, make it have to rely on cover, (wich is probally worse then its armor save) so anything that can spam out a huge number of shots that can wound it on a 4+ or even 5+ will give it a really bad time. and with the 6th meta focusing more and more on heavy shooting, thats not hard to acomplish. and while some would argue that i just used 27% of my army to take down a 300pt max unit, i would say yup. and now i have 9 units that can do other things, while you have a dead centerpiece. so far the only big MC i have seen work, is the DK in 6th (he failed horribly in 5th) a PAIR of trygons, and a pair of riptides. the big scary MC just tend to attract alot of fire, and most can't really stand up to it. going in pairs mitigates this somewhat, and a trio would fare VERY well i imagine. but as a direct comparison to the riptide (its closest competetor) the riptide wins. its more mobile, has better guns, better saves, is faster, can JSJ, and has ablative wounds in its drones. i also believe its cheaper. not sure on the weapon ranges, but the riptide can fire at 72" ...if the WK brings lances and such hes working at 36". and honestly when you get to be that big, the toughness dosent matter as much as what kind of saves, and your ability to get out of LOS or range of retaliation.

edit:

just thought i would add some thoughts.

for a big MC to be effective i believe you need most, if not all of the following:
1. longer range then your enemys. you have to be able to hit without getting hit back. acomplish this with ultra long range weapons, or the ability to move, fire move. (ie riptide)
2. speed. the ability to close distance quick, get in on your target, kill it, and move on, limits the other sides ability to respond. works well with close range units like the DK, trygon, FHT, etc.
3. you need super high toughness, lots of wounds and a good invun save, or all 3. while high toughness helps matters and stops the average bolter from dropping you, in the end its your wounds and saves that matter. if you get pegged by a lazcannon and have to rely on a 5+...well. thats just not a good situation. if you a method of recovering wounds, or getting a better save, then awsome - but those extra points for those support units essentially become part of your big MC cost. and what happens when that support gets taken out? furthermore, a high toughness low wound count, means a few lucky shots wipe you. high toughness and high wounds but no save, just means people spam antitank weapons - and again down you go. snipers and poison excell here as well, and more and more armies are taking these.
4. they need to have a really well defined role. - and be able to do it as well or better then other competing units in their slot. the reason a DK works well in a gk list, is the other heavy units just dont compete with it anymore. tanks have become second string, and a fast moving MC with a 2+ save and a beastly combat weapon can acomplish lots. the riptide can outrange and cover the entire table with its gun, shoot, then jump in behind a building to block LOS. failing that, it has a 3+invun. and 2 ablative wounds to soak return fire.

out of those above 4 points, the WK really only brings the high toughness and wounds factor. its save is mediocre, and with no invun, its risking serious return fire. at its size, its gonna have a hard time claiming cover, AFAIK it cant JSJ, its not JI, and its weapon ranges are in the 36" bracket., (correct me if im wrong on these - what save does its shield thing give it?)

So... Taking out 240 pts. With 540 pts. Somehow makes it worthless?

Your flesh gauntlets will never get close. This is the same argument people gave with the riptide. Jump MC means i chose if it sees melee, not you. Also, how hard is it to kill that unit when im playing an army that specializes in S6 firing.

Then you talk about MSS from a lord who is never going to see melee either. Seriously, do people not play the game? do you just talk about what you can do? How the hell do you think that lord will see melee? Wait till the unit is whittled down and use precision shots/focused fire to pick out the lord. Once hes dead the unit gets wiped by the wraithknight. Repeat.

Kroot snipers are short range. If you advance out of cover, the army obliterates them. If you dont, you will never get shots on it.

Eldar will still be taking eldrad/high ML farseers. Eldrad/farseers still has a very good chance of getting fortune. These guys are REALLY good fortune targets when facing DE. 36 saves = 12 failed= 4 failed with rerolls. This also assumes your whole army is in range (wont be the case if im facing DE, especially if im rocking eldrad), you got first turn and your venoms are all alive, and such. The guys inside will probably not be in range first turn except maybe 1 or 2 venoms if you placed really well. Once you start switching the argument to you using your lances or FA slots(seriously, you will use a razorwing on the WK for the one turn it lives vs all the AA in eldar?) to take on the WK you are proving my exact point. In a 2k list you are focusing a LOT of firepower to take down a unit that is worth nowhere near what all that firepower should be taking out.

if it never shoots? or never kills anything? you bet. thats how my DE roll. they focus down your big threats through volume of fire, and move on, using target saturation to mitigate some damage. if my transports can take down that big beasty, and my other units can inflict damage or kill a few of your other units as well, thats a win. because ive removed whole units from your side, wich lessens your ability to hit me back. if i used my WHOLE army to shoot it, and nothing else, then yes. win for the thing i just shot at. but i will generally not put myself in that spot. most of my movment allows me to target the primary threat, but also shoot at secondary targets should the primary one die before the next unit can fire at it.

So you volly into the wraithknight, take it down turn 1, maybe put a few hull points on vehicles. Then my 1760 points of eldar vollys back, killing 3+ venoms, and your ravagers. Hell, i might even be rocking more than 1 of these guy where you can say hi to his friend. If your turn 2 consists of doing the same as turn 1 to the other WK, i will still be out-damaging your shooty army with mine.

I think i might have caused a war here - don't listen to me I am a noob at gaming since I am more of a painter. I just thought it looked and played awesome for what it was. At the end of the day you should be proud of your army and have fun not be a power gamer try to constantly table ur opponent by turn 2!

Just my 2 suncannons!

 Vivster wrote:

Today in my local GW, I used the legs (since it was all that i built) to represent the model.

...

I hope you at least have decency to be ashamed.

Well i pretty much spent at least 3+ hours cleaning and filing the legs and hip o make sure they were perfect so not realy

 Vivster wrote:
Well i pretty much spent at least 3+ hours cleaning and filing the legs and hip o make sure they were perfect so not realy

Oh, well in that case it is okay!

("Yes, I might have gone to work without pants, but see, my shirt was clean and freshly ironed, so I'm sure no one minded!")


About the Wraithknight, I don't think it is that terrible. People seem to come up with these scenarios where a concentrated shooting can drop it in one turn. But really, is there any unit in this game that can survive concentrated fire of units twice it points and specifically chosen to deal with it? I don't think so. You really cannot evaluate these things in vacuum. The Eldar army will contain a lot of other things besides the Wraithknigh that the enemy has to deal with as well.

And yes, it is better against some armies and worse against some others, but that is true for any unit.

That being said, I still find it odd that it can only fire two weapons. This makes most of the example pictures that they've shown us utterly idiotic loadouts. And Its firepower is not really that impressive for its points. It is possible that they fethed up and intended it to be able to fire all weapons but forgot to actually give it a rule for it. That would make the point costs and the composition of the kit more understandable.

http://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=500422096677813&id=163584637028229&set=a.168874433165916.58843.163584637028229&refid=17

Progress of my wraithknights smexy legs...

I was a bit surprised it was only 3+ armour when the baby carrier is 2+ / 5++ - ah well means my Dark Eldar can poison it to death more easily

Looking forward to getting one though - looks ace and been trying to jsutofy to myself getting a Revenant for some time.

Well the thing is they are eldar and are supposed to be a specialist army - making very army like space marines means there is no variety.

Rule of Eldar:
In general, the Eldar are a fast army with great guns, awesome toys, versitile tactics and poor resilience in line with that of soggy tissue paper. The Eldar are often touted as a “specialist army,” and for good reason: each unit plays a very particular role and generally everyone in a squad has the same gun, the squad as a whole aims for one goal as oppsoed to squads of dudes each touting a different gun for a diferent kind of foe

Thats fair enough, although the Astartes are also supposed to be specalists - which is why them getting new things like baby carriers and numerous flyers annoys me..........

Liking alot of what I hear about the Eldar Codex

truth told, i MIGHT get one, and convert it to the dark side to run beside my 2 revenants and phantom - all of wich have been coverted to dark eldar standards.

the big question for me now, since GW CLEARLY has the ability to make large plastic titan size models, and sell them for under 200$ canadian, does that mean we will see things like warhounds, revenants, etc for apocalypse? - rumors suggest a new apoc rulebook soon, and the last time GW released a apoc ruleset we got the baneblade and stompa. i would love it if indeed, they went that route.

 DarthSpader wrote:
truth told, i MIGHT get one, and convert it to the dark side to run beside my 2 revenants and phantom - all of wich have been coverted to dark eldar standards.

the big question for me now, since GW CLEARLY has the ability to make large plastic titan size models, and sell them for under 200$ canadian, does that mean we will see things like warhounds, revenants, etc for apocalypse? - rumors suggest a new apoc rulebook soon, and the last time GW released a apoc ruleset we got the baneblade and stompa. i would love it if indeed, they went that route.

Agreed

Love the idea of Dark Eldar Titans- what did you do to them?

I wrote up rules for Dark Eldar Titans back in the day for the Journal - long time ago.............

well, these are OLD threads, so dont post in them - dont want to encourage necromancy. but i did a PM blog on both the revenant, and the phantom conversions.

the revenant one here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345119.page

and the phantom one here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/425971.page

OK fine, so now explain to us why we shouldn't ignore it? It's damage output is miserable for it's cost. Your comment about it eating a unit a turn is hilarious. It's also false.

Fine, ignore it. It's jump, so getting turn 2 assaults, has weapons that can potentially ID any non-EW model in your army at any point and if you have any vehicles, they will die in the assault. This is very much a support weapons killer, so think about it. It will wipe out a unit of Long Fangs not on the charge but the turn after, which means it's dodging shooting in your turn and then free to move in its own. It will kill artillery in a similar manner. Any common vehicles, be it Annihilation Barges, Hammerheads, Chimeras, Drop Pods, really any non-land Raider cannot cope with this thing and cannot reasonably dodge one. It's damage output is reasonably low, make no mistake about that but is that actually bad? If I had the choice between killing troops on an objective with a denial unit OR tying it up so the objective is unclaimable the entire game, option 2 wins almost every time. So, it kills pretty much any given support unit you can name and locks an objective up if you can't kill it. I'd say that's pretty good cause to not ignore them myself because I actually want to win. Are you telling me it's reasonable and smart to ignore a unit which can kill your fire support and render your troops fairy useless? A unit can't just be measured by how much it can kill. It's not the worlds best unit as I keep saying but if you think it's ignorable you're not going to do very well. It can and will eat an armies worth of shooting. It is as durable, if not more against most weapons compared to a Riptide, the exceptions being missiles and poison/sniper shooting. It can easily kill MSU marines and tie up large hordes for an entire game on its own. It can easily kill any given vehicle and is a major threat to any MC without EW. I'd say that's a pretty scary unit myself.

Lanlaorn wrote:

Wyrdeone wrote:
Winged Daemon Prince with Balesword.

Catch it easy, swing first, wound on 4+, Ap2, instant death.

Between Wraithknights, Dreadknights, and Riptides, my Nurgle Daemon prince model is getting dusted off and returned to the table.

Just FYI, this won't work on the Dreadknight. Your sword is a Demonic Gift, and the Dreadknight has the Dark Excommunication Psychic Power, which "in the assault phase, before any blows are struck" allows you make any demonic gift "cease to work".

He's LD 10, so there's a very high chance you'd be punching the DK with your fists while he responds with his S10 AP2 Instant Death weapon, lol.

use CSM and the murder sword. That works just fine, in just the same way but only on 1 model. And it usually wounds on 2+

wait....the wraithknight is jump infantry????

That only works when in B2B with the nominated character.


@ Darthspader: Yes....yes it IS! Muwahahahahahahaha!

 DarthSpader wrote:
truth told, i MIGHT get one, and convert it to the dark side to run beside my 2 revenants and phantom - all of wich have been coverted to dark eldar standards.

the big question for me now, since GW CLEARLY has the ability to make large plastic titan size models, and sell them for under 200$ canadian, does that mean we will see things like warhounds, revenants, etc for apocalypse? - rumors suggest a new apoc rulebook soon, and the last time GW released a apoc ruleset we got the baneblade and stompa. i would love it if indeed, they went that route.

Not a chance. Games Workshop would not want to compete with itself. When the plastic baneblade was released, Forgeworld sales dropped drastically which ended up as games workshop barely earning more than forge world would have made. So no, I don't think Games workshop with tread into Fw territory.

how....how the heck can a wraith construct be jump infantry? this makes no sense. im calling BS on that...

 DarthSpader wrote:
how....how the heck can a wraith construct be jump infantry? this makes no sense. im calling BS on that...

Its freaking huge and steps really far? The same way gargantuan creatures move 12". Jump doesn't mean that it has a jump pack it means that's how it moves. Beast is too much and calvary is redundant.

My standard necron build at 1850 has two deathmark squads with 2 despairteks each in scythes. I do not fear these guys at all.

 DarthSpader wrote:
how....how the heck can a wraith construct be jump infantry? this makes no sense. im calling BS on that...

Revenants have jump jets. Lol

Says it aids in its movement

Wraithknight is completely worth it, because all your base are belong to us.

On a more serious note (of course I am going to say what I'm about to say) why doesn't everyone do as they like with whatever models they want to use, and to hell with everyone else. If you want to find out if it is viable in tournaments, or in a more competitive climate, bring it and find out how it fairs in real life.

Personally I like it for all the reasons everyone says not to like it, or how not to take it equipped. But that is my opinion.

Its a jump MC, not a jump infantry, but the same deal. Thats why i have been saying you will not get in melee with it unless i want you to. If you look a half the torso and even on the arms, it has ducting vents. Also the size would help. Its pretty much leaping when it strides, so they count it as jump.

CrimsonKing wrote:
Wraithknight is completely worth it, because all your base are belong to us.

On a more serious note (of course I am going to say what I'm about to say) why doesn't everyone do as they like with whatever models they want to use, and to hell with everyone else. If you want to find out if it is viable in tournaments, or in a more competitive climate, bring it and find out how it fairs in real life.

Personally I like it for all the reasons everyone says not to like it, or how not to take it equipped. But that is my opinion.

It's a rather expensive investment, to just bring it and try it out though. I'm going to wait to see some results, before I buy, if I buy one of those. I'm of the opinion that that there are much better options in the Heavy Support slot.

I personally don't think it's worth its price tag, especially when factoring in that it can only shoot two weapons.

Even if I ignore any other problems it may have, the two weapons thing really clinches it for me - I feel I can get so much more for 240pts.

Iranna.

Hahaha, we can put Relentless on our MCs and you can't

 Kain wrote:
Hahaha, we can put Relentless on our MCs and you can't

All MCs are relentless...

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Hahaha, we can put Relentless on our MCs and you can't

All MCs are relentless...

Iranna.

Wait really? Then why does onslaught let me fire all three of a Tfex's guns?

Unless 1d4chan's tactica lied to me.

 Kain wrote:

Wait really? Then why does onslaught let me fire all three of a Tfex's guns?

Unless 1d4chan's tactica lied to me.

Because MCs can normally only fire two.

Relentless doesn't effect how many weapons you can fire, only that you may fire Heavy, Salvo etc. weapons after moving and charge after firing said weapons.

Iranna.

Oh, a question to those who have the kit. Am I correct that suncannon and heavy wraithcannon use some same parts, so you actually cannot build both shooty variants and magnetise, unless you magnetise individual parts of the guns?

we had our first games with this over at our LSGS. Overall performance was kind of hard to gauge.

The guy took an avatar and did not have a farseer / warlock to buff this thing. He took the sword and shield to run forward and into the enemy while the enemy has to ignore the squishy shooters he had.

The tau player reserved a lot of things and essentially came in the opposite corner from where the wraith knight was placed so all it got to do was assault some drop pod marines that came down in the elder deployment zone. Due to bad positioning, He did not get a charge off till turn 3 as he threw the thing into some ruins in a corner to stop it getting shot to death.

We were running a super sized apoc game practically so there was some 3k points on each side so the amount of shooting was kind of silly. Also had about 5 fliers on each side lol. Incidentially the enemy completely ignored the thing till about top of turn 3. (the wraithknight player went 2nd)

Out of the 6 wounds it had

1) failed one save vs squad of 3 SM scouts with sniper rifles (took 2 casualties eariler)
2) ate a melta gun
3) SM missle launcher
4) Krack grenade in CC
5) Krack grenade in CC
6) Was alive at the end but was tied into combat with a squad of 10 sternguard that it was killing about 1-2 models a turn.

Bad things we did. Forgot the sword made him master crafted.
Invul saves were not made with any regularity. (I think he made one save vs a krack missle and that's about it)
Was playing it very safely so it hugged ruins for a 4++ cover but it just make his engagement much slower.
Deployed onto a flank (with the most cover) but really diminished what it could do. (should have put him down the middle so the enemy couldn't really refuse flank)
rolled too poorly to wipe out a squad of 10 sternguard in CC over 4 combat rounds (took over 2 turns, technically they were still locked in at game's end)
thought the hammer of wrath was AP2 but turned out it was AP -
charging through terrain is still 3d6 minus the highest even for MC's and move through cover. No grenades means it's still at I1 (though not that big a deal)

The SM guy wants to bring melta bombs in the near future.

we'll be trying out the shooty variant in upcoming games so more to come.

From the sprue pics it does show just a weapon tip for the suncannon. You may have to magnetize a weapon tip.

The store doesn't have a shot of the WK with the suncannon though so I'm not sure.

So, what do you think about Deep Striking the WraithKnight? If you manage to do it in a good position, you're forcing your opponent to take it out, instead of ignoring it... and I think It has enough resilence to hold for at least a turn (depending on opponent and luck )

 noghri wrote:
So, what do you think about Deep Striking the WraithKnight? If you manage to do it in a good position, you're forcing your opponent to take it out, instead of ignoring it... and I think It has enough resilence to hold for at least a turn (depending on opponent and luck )

Generally deep striking huge models is a great way to roll on the mishap table to see how hard you cry.

Personally I don't find it worth while but it may play all sorts of mind games with the enemy knowing that a giant wraith knight can come on anywhere.

However, it is a ton of points and generally you'd want people to shoot at it. It's not that hard to tarpit and frankly vs a bunch of missle launchers / melta / sniper shots, this thing can still be taken down.

So I'd say no to deep striking unless you are going for something where you can #1 control the reserve rolls, #2 kind of predict the way the enemy will respond to you. and #3 plan according to what you'd imagine someone would do to #2.

It's actually pretty fast as is. I've had no problems with jump MC's as a GK player to know how to get it into CC by turn 2 most times. 12' + run 4' + 12' + 7-8 in charge is hard to dodge on a standard board.

There is literally no reason to ever Deep Strike him in a normal game of 40k, even against armies which have a chance of shooting one to death you can easily find a building to hide behind as far back as you can to avoid dying straight away. With 36" range + 12" move you are very rarely going to be out of range, so you are always better off deploying so you can fire for an extra turn or two. Even if you were using the CC loadout (which is a terrible idea in the first place) you wouldn't want to Deep Strike, you can't assault unit the turn after you arrive, which at best is going to be turn 3. 2 x 12" moves straight forward puts you on the edge of your opponents deployment zone, so they would have to be hugging their back edge to avoid it.

Powerguy, if your up against an all DE venom list and the rest of your army is in wave serpents, then your going to want to reserve your wraith knight until you down some transports. Also, if you have big guns never tire, you can use the wraith knight as a reserve objective grabber, meaning you may want him in reserve to deep strike to throw your opponents game off.

I agree that usually you want to start him on the table, but catch alls like "no reason to deep strike him" can be very misleading. Deep striking the wraith knight can be game winning, its just not the answer most of the time.

DevianID wrote:
Powerguy, if your up against an all DE venom list and the rest of your army is in wave serpents, then your going to want to reserve your wraith knight until you down some transports. Also, if you have big guns never tire, you can use the wraith knight as a reserve objective grabber, meaning you may want him in reserve to deep strike to throw your opponents game off.

I agree that usually you want to start him on the table, but catch alls like "no reason to deep strike him" can be very misleading. Deep striking the wraith knight can be game winning, its just not the answer most of the time.

If that was the case though, wouldn't you be better off just walking it on from reserves? I'm always very hesitant to deepstrike something, that large.

It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.

Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

That being said other armies are in dire trouble.

Tau and IG has the dakka to drop one, and it's not worth it. By the time they are done the softer targets that should have been target priority have done their damage.

DA salvo lists=full panic. It's immune to all that s4 and is gunning straight for the salvo banner.

I wouldn't play with a knight myself, but I would never assume that they would be absent from a tournament.

I would only take one in a large game (2k +), with a single force org.

In any other case I'd rather have 2 wraithlords for comparable points. 2 WLs can fire 4 weapons and their wounds are spread out.

The heavy slot is very strong with the new codex.

I'm wondering if the Iyanden supplement will move either the WK or WL to Elites. Then it might see more play. They are still very expensive but have four to six T8 monsters running around that are pretty decent in CC also is scary. Throw in an Avatar and you've got a real monster mash.

After reading this thread and looking at the model in question, all I want to do now is paint a few up in white, blue, and red with red chin and a golden 'V' tiara on its forehead. Mobile Suit 40k: Eldar's Counter Attack!

SJ

How would you guys model him? Ie. with what weapon loadout?

id love to see the stats but from what ive heard i doubt i'll see it unless someone just wants it on the table.

~70-100 more than the Riptide and on average isnt doing as much, and to me the riptide is a distraction not a legit threat. It pops light vehicles and termies, but aside from that i'd rather use crisis suits. However, it is indeed one hell of a distraction...people seem hellbent on killing it and usually dont succeed.

T8 pretty much just rules out the random infantry gak firing at it. Every army still has plenty of things to kill it. Orks are probably the lowest chances, but even they will cause some damage since it will almost never hide from the loota fire. And Ghaz will still eat its face, which is my normal tactic for dealing with Dreadknights.

DevianID wrote:
Powerguy, if your up against an all DE venom list and the rest of your army is in wave serpents, then your going to want to reserve your wraith knight until you down some transports. Also, if you have big guns never tire, you can use the wraith knight as a reserve objective grabber, meaning you may want him in reserve to deep strike to throw your opponents game off.

I agree that usually you want to start him on the table, but catch alls like "no reason to deep strike him" can be very misleading. Deep striking the wraith knight can be game winning, its just not the answer most of the time.

If I'm going first against DE then he is getting deployed so I can squash a Venom a turn for the entire game, with the rest of the army reliably dropping another couple he isn't going to have the firepower to deal with the WK. If I'm going second then I know where my opponent has deployed, and know that he has at best a 48" reach. If he has deployed clustered together then I will be safe in one of the corners, and if he has spread out then again I'm still pretty safe in the corners because he can only bring a couple of Venoms into range. In either case my 12" move forward (after his movement forward into range) will easily let me get the first shots off. The same goes for a Guard or SW lists heavy on Missiles/Lascannons, behind a ruin to get 4+ cover or in area terrain to get 5+ (usually more than this due to Night Fight) combined with T8 means I'm not worried about him dying turn 1 since I know how deployment works. And as already mentioned if you are really that worried about him dying turn 1 then just put him in normal reserve, he has a 48" reach (i.e the entire table) and can make it anywhere on the table in 3 turns if he is in a hurry.

@schadenfreude. The issue is that of those options you have listed only DE and Eldar are using ranged weapons. With a 12" move the only unit that might catch you is a Dreadknight (which you focus down pretty fast with Shuriken and Monofilament), normal GKs have no chance. Nids should never catch you with Gaunts (they could send a Flyrant in I guess, but I suspect the Wraithknight wins that fight due to the wound difference and T8 forcing the Flyrant to Smash and halve attacks), and Orks/Chaos/Guard should definitely never catch you (with non Fleet infantry).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
id love to see the stats but from what ive heard i doubt i'll see it unless someone just wants it on the table.

~70-100 more than the Riptide and on average isnt doing as much, and to me the riptide is a distraction not a legit threat. It pops light vehicles and termies, but aside from that i'd rather use crisis suits. However, it is indeed one hell of a distraction...people seem hellbent on killing it and usually dont succeed.

T8 pretty much just rules out the random infantry gak firing at it. Every army still has plenty of things to kill it. Orks are probably the lowest chances, but even they will cause some damage since it will almost never hide from the loota fire. And Ghaz will still eat its face, which is my normal tactic for dealing with Dreadknights.

It's not a character so a nob with a klaw can just chip away at it while it spends all of it's time scraping 6 point boys off it's bootsi. lt kills less than 2 boys per turn, about 1.6rper turn

its pretty much the shinny turd in the codex. The troops got the real boost.

tgf wrote:
its pretty much the shinny turd in the codex. The troops got the real boost.

Can't argue with in depth analysis like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not a character so a nob with a klaw can just chip away at it while it spends all of it's time scraping 6 point boys off it's bootsi. lt kills less than 2 boys per turn, about 1.6rper turn

To be fair, that single power claw isn't going to be doing much to the WK either. If he has the Invulnerable we are talking .33 wounds/turn.

Still, the fact that he would be completely swamped is the bigger concern. But, again, as others have mentioned, how in the hell would you let your jump MC get assaulted by a bunch of boys in the first place?

I fully expect the Wraithlord to be FAQ'd to be able to fire all its weapons within the month.

Without it, it's not worth the points.

if i got a blob of 20+ boyz + a klaw nob in assault with any jump MC, the owner of that model is an idiot.

My friends keep pointing out the crappy melee stats on my riptide, and i keep pointing out theyve never gotten near it to take advantage of it.

You know, the more I look at the stock configuration, the more I like it.

Those 10/2s with Distort will be pretty nasty to throw into MCs as well. Between MCs, multi-wound/FNP T5 and lower, and vehicles, its pretty rare for your opponent to not have some prime target for it to shoot at.

I just wish I could take the ++ on the stock somehow.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

tgf wrote:
its pretty much the shinny turd in the codex. The troops got the real boost.

Can't argue with in depth analysis like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not a character so a nob with a klaw can just chip away at it while it spends all of it's time scraping 6 point boys off it's bootsi. lt kills less than 2 boys per turn, about 1.6rper turn

To be fair, that single power claw isn't going to be doing much to the WK either. If he has the Invulnerable we are talking .33 wounds/turn.

Still, the fact that he would be completely swamped is the bigger concern. But, again, as others have mentioned, how in the hell would you let your jump MC get assaulted by a bunch of boys in the first place?

30 boys has a huge footprint. The jump mc has to keep a safe distance, and thus there is huge area denial. It's a simple choice of not going where the mc would be most effective, or dance around huge areas of denial and plink away with range weapons only. tarpits are a big concern that can render a big jump mc to dakka only for several turns.

Didn't read through every reply here but, a WK with Conceal in area terrain or even behind your own models will have a 3+ cover save, and that combined with T8 is pretty hard to shift. Hell, stick him behind some ruins and it's a 2+ cover. He's big but 25% coverage shouldn't be impossible to achieve.

Conceal only targets the caster.

Oh, damn, well disregard that then...at least he has T8 :(

if conceal targeted any unit, thered be other insanely broken tactics being used already using it. It would make almost any unit ridiculously hard to kill.

Though a seer hq can join a 10 strong wraith guard or a unit of grotesques which have crappy armor saves and would benif benefit a lot from conceal.

After reading this thread I would have to use Jy2s term of "Positional dominance" as the role for the WK. Use it to contest or take (Big Guns Never Tire) mid field or your opponents back field objectives.

If you are deploying first set it up in the middle to give yourself options on how to respond to your opponents deployment. If you are deploying second deploy on a flank to minimize incoming fire while maximizing your threat to your opponents support units.

That is how I see this unit being most effective. It has enough range from what I've read that even being deployed on one edge it can cover half the table with its stock weapons and the weapons are of a high enough grade they can open light to medium armor for other units to shoot at the tender pieces inside. It's close combat skills are such that it is a threat to support units and/or whittled down units (like those popped out of transports).

Just my two cents.

I had my first game yesterday with the new codex and ran the WK in it's base configuration. I was facing Tau which is probably the worse army to face for this model. Three Missilesides pretty much destroyed it by turn 2. I'm thinking of running it with Suncannon/Scatterfield with a Seer council to Fortune it as I quickly move it across the table to get into melee.

God, if only it could be armed with torrent D-Scythes. We'd have the most broken Eldar unit ever.

I'm buying one and a riptide just to build, paint, and sit on the shelf with the rest of my anime figures...

 Vineheart01 wrote:

My friends keep pointing out the crappy melee stats on my riptide, and i keep pointing out theyve never gotten near it to take advantage of it.

Heh, I've been playing Tau too long. There have been times I've seriously considered charging my riptide into close combat because it has strength 6 and 3 attacks (which looks like an amazing close combat profile compared to every other profile I've seen). It fear works it can even hit on a 3+...

Not for a 180pt model that has far better shooting options

 Kain wrote:

 Iranna wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Hahaha, we can put Relentless on our MCs and you can't

All MCs are relentless...

Iranna.

Wait really? Then why does onslaught let me fire all three of a Tfex's guns?

Unless 1d4chan's tactica lied to me.

A TFex can always fire all three of its guns due to the rules for the Thorax Swarm itself. It has nothing to do with Relentless or Onslaught.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

My friends keep pointing out the crappy melee stats on my riptide, and i keep pointing out theyve never gotten near it to take advantage of it.

Heh, I've been playing Tau too long. There have been times I've seriously considered charging my riptide into close combat because it has strength 6 and 3 attacks (which looks like an amazing close combat profile compared to every other profile I've seen). It fear works it can even hit on a 3+...

My main army is orks, I put the riptide in melee strengths about the same level of a nob without a powerklaw. Reason being, the nobs hit smaller things on a 3+ and costs far less for not-that-much worse base states (excluding the AP2 and Wounds).
Yes the riptide CAN melee because it still hits on 4s and splats anything that doesnt splat him first. The problem is everything has an advantage hitting him, numbers scare him, and his gun is a bazillion times more reliable than his fist.
Literally the only time my riptide has been in melee was to charge an Ark carrying some nasty guns and passengers i didnt want to get to my gunline. I had nothing to pen it save for the Melta and my fist, everythin else was just glance chances and i had fliers to worry about so my broadsides were on that problem already. So i charged after botching the melta shot (snake eyes...dafuq), punched its butt, pinned its occupants with the explosion roll, ran away. Couldnt consolidate or thrust move, but he was pinned so he couldnt charge me to lock my riptide down. I did that intending to lose the riptide, i just got lucky lol

Yes it rocks.

Suncannon/scattershield with a scatter laser is the best option.

He is worth his 300pts and you will see lots of them presently but we shall see how 6th edition shapes up we got how many codexs still to go?

Here is my list I will be running tomorrow

Avatar
7 warlocks on bikes

3x 3 jetbikers

2 wraithlords - flamers, blade, 2xbright lance
Wraith Knight - Suncannon/scatter shield, Scatter laser

TAU ALLIES

Commander - fusion, iradium, puretide, shield generator, Interceptor

Riptide - Ion, SMS, Interceptor

6 Fire warriors

2x broadsides HYM, SMS, interceptor

We already rolled for psychic powers - I got 2 destructor/renewals (see the theme?) 1 armor booster, 2 embolden/despair, 2 quicken (turned a quicken into conceal)


PS - CANT WAIT FOR IYANDEN!

Wratihknight warlords!!!!
Spirit Seer councils!!!

my eldar/tau ZILLA list will only get better I imagine.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.

Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

That being said other armies are in dire trouble.

Tau and IG has the dakka to drop one, and it's not worth it. By the time they are done the softer targets that should have been target priority have done their damage.

DA salvo lists=full panic. It's immune to all that s4 and is gunning straight for the salvo banner.

I wouldn't play with a knight myself, but I would never assume that they would be absent from a tournament.

Exactly my thoughts here. Its a fluffy choice but generally not worth it in a tournament setting.

Exactly my thoughts here. Its a fluffy choice but generally not worth it in a tournament setting.

Interesting. By that logic, are MCs in general not worth it in a tournament setting? Because all I see are MC weaknesses.

Weird though. I could list a similar amount of weaknesses for every single unit in the game. Does that mean no units are worth it in a tournament setting? Must be a boring tournament....

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Exactly my thoughts here. Its a fluffy choice but generally not worth it in a tournament setting.

Interesting. By that logic, are MCs in general not worth it in a tournament setting? Because all I see are MC weaknesses.

Weird though. I could list a similar amount of weaknesses for every single unit in the game. Does that mean no units are worth it in a tournament setting? Must be a boring tournament....

Sorry, but this is not what was intended. The point is that a single WK can easily be downed if the enemy targets it and has the right means as pointed out by Schadenfreude.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Think about the unheard of Sniper Drone team in Tau, when you take the wraithknight.

at 24" there's a potential 27 shots at BS5, all of which wound your knight on 4+.

That's 22.5 hits

11.25 wounds, with about 2 rends.

I don't know about the wraithknights saves, but from what I've heard they're only save 3+ with no invulnerable save.

that means you'll take 2 wounds + 3 failed saves. If the wraithknight doesn't have more than six wounds, he's toast to me.

However if they take 2 turns of eating 3 twin linked s6 ap2 small blasts to the face these figures won't be quite as accurate...
Honestly, this model is to big not to take imo, a bit of conversions and BAM! Awesomeness!

If I end up playing against a Wraithknight I'll just be spreading out and ignoring it as best I can, allowing the Eldar player to enjoy his pitiful 3 blasts he's got in return for the massive points dump, then once I've claimed enough VP's I'll instagib it with a Force weapon. I will then proceed to ask the timeless question - YOU MAD, BRO?

I'll also take great pleasure in pointing at my ADL with Quad Gun manned by a Prescience Coteaz and 3 Plasma Cannon Servitors and telling him that the whole thing cost less points than his now dead Wraithknight. I will then re-ask - YOU MAD, BRO?

I may then consider poking him with a stick and skipping away in a camp manner, giggling to myself.

Enceladus wrote:
If I end up playing against a Wraithknight I'll just be spreading out and ignoring it as best I can, allowing the Eldar player to enjoy his pitiful 3 blasts he's got in return for the massive points dump, then once I've claimed enough VP's I'll instagib it with a Force weapon. I will then proceed to ask the timeless question - YOU MAD, BRO?

I'll also take great pleasure in pointing at my ADL with Quad Gun manned by a Prescience Coteaz and 3 Plasma Cannon Servitors and telling him that the whole thing cost less points than his now dead Wraithknight. I will then re-ask - YOU MAD, BRO?

I may then consider poking him with a stick and skipping away in a camp manner, giggling to myself.

60 kroot with sniper rounds - 210 points - will knock six wounds off it. that's about 40-ish points less than what you're talking about and it can do it first turn.

if you're going first, they'll always do it first turn.

 wuestenfux wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Exactly my thoughts here. Its a fluffy choice but generally not worth it in a tournament setting.

Interesting. By that logic, are MCs in general not worth it in a tournament setting? Because all I see are MC weaknesses.

Weird though. I could list a similar amount of weaknesses for every single unit in the game. Does that mean no units are worth it in a tournament setting? Must be a boring tournament....

Sorry, but this is not what was intended. The point is that a single WK can easily be downed if the enemy targets it and has the right means as pointed out by Schadenfreude.

Except all but one of those require you to be a complete scrub and let the Wraithknight get assaulted by a horde unit.... Its really not that easy to take out.

Just thinking. On a 6 JotWW initiative test he'd be toast too or am i missing something?

 Mywik wrote:
Just thinking. On a 6 JotWW initiative test he'd be toast too or am i missing something?

Everything's dead on that 6 though, not just the WK.

 Shandara wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
Just thinking. On a 6 JotWW initiative test he'd be toast too or am i missing something?

Everything's dead on that 6 though, not just the WK.

No, vehicles cant take damage from it

I know everything is dead on a 6. But since i didnt read the WK codex entry i asked.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Enceladus wrote:
If I end up playing against a Wraithknight I'll just be spreading out and ignoring it as best I can, allowing the Eldar player to enjoy his pitiful 3 blasts he's got in return for the massive points dump, then once I've claimed enough VP's I'll instagib it with a Force weapon. I will then proceed to ask the timeless question - YOU MAD, BRO?

I'll also take great pleasure in pointing at my ADL with Quad Gun manned by a Prescience Coteaz and 3 Plasma Cannon Servitors and telling him that the whole thing cost less points than his now dead Wraithknight. I will then re-ask - YOU MAD, BRO?

I may then consider poking him with a stick and skipping away in a camp manner, giggling to myself.

60 kroot with sniper rounds - 210 points - will knock six wounds off it. that's about 40-ish points less than what you're talking about and it can do it first turn.

if you're going first, they'll always do it first turn.

You're missing my point, I wasn't trying to point out which units could effectively kill the thing (of which there are lots), besides, I don't play Tau...
I'm merely stating that my GK army can have 3 twin linked plasma cannon shots (A rough equivalent to what the Wraithknight gives you), plus a Quad Gun and 4+ cover, not to mention the 'I've Been Expecting You' rule and indeed re-rolls to seize initiative, all for less points than that big lumbering points dump.


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 Mywik wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
Just thinking. On a 6 JotWW initiative test he'd be toast too or am i missing something?

Everything's dead on that 6 though, not just the WK.

No, vehicles cant take damage from it

I know everything is dead on a 6. But since i didnt read the WK codex entry i asked.

Didn't they FAQ Necrons with Reanimation Protocols to have a chance to get back up after JotWW? So not quite outright dead for everybody ;-) But we're digressing - Back on topic!

i'd say if you were using the WK as a fire magnet, its a waste of points, as you could use a WL to a similar effect (as it will probably still be the biggest thing in your army) for less points, and with more chance of a cover save.

I'm using a Wraithknight in an army with an Avatar and three Talos', so I predict it will do very well for me as a fire magnet. I'm also looking forward to seeing how well the scattershield's Blind rule will work in close combat when my army will likely be higher Initiative than my opponent's. That's another rule that I think a lot of people are forgetting about. If you wound that Wraithknight with a powerfist in your turn, and it passes it's invulnerable save, your units might be blinded until the end of your next turn (2 combat rounds).

 Jacknife wrote:
i'd say if you were using the WK as a fire magnet, its a waste of points, as you could use a WL to a similar effect (as it will probably still be the biggest thing in your army) for less points, and with more chance of a cover save.

The flip side is Fortune does more for the WK then WL (he has more wounds to work through), and Renewer has more of a chance of working (he has a better chance of still being alive after taking dedicated firepower). Also, lets say you have 2 WL or 1 WK. The WLs lose half of their combat effectiveness after losing 3 wounds. The WK does not.


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 Oaka wrote:
I'm using a Wraithknight in an army with an Avatar and three Talos', so I predict it will do very well for me as a fire magnet. I'm also looking forward to seeing how well the scattershield's Blind rule will work in close combat when my army will likely be higher Initiative than my opponent's. That's another rule that I think a lot of people are forgetting about. If you wound that Wraithknight with a powerfist in your turn, and it passes it's invulnerable save, your units might be blinded until the end of your next turn (2 combat rounds).

That's a fun idea. Elfzilla armies for the win.

The problem is that 40K lends itself so easily for power gaming.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.
Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
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How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
Requires melee
requires melee
requires melee
requires melee

How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

If tou have checked the Tau Codex you would know that kroot are as good as, or even superior to FW as each one brings a sniper rifle so 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 of which are rending and about 3 additional wounds from failed armour saves. And since when does DE fight wraithknights in CC when almost every shooting weapon in their army is poisoned 4+. It isn't that hard to catch a wraithknight and force him into CC, just try to jump anywhere with 150 or so Ork boyz or gaunts covering the table and you will soon find your back to the table edge. Oh and with tervigons your gaunts can effectively get a 12" move and a charge.

Gaunts need to be within 6" of the tervigon to get poison, so they dont actually hurt it until then. Also, keeping 18-24 inches away isnt hard when all nids do is walk towards you. Plus some terrain inbetween slows them down a lot.

I had thought it had changed kroot to 1 shot rending, my mistake. However, fire warriors are still the supperior troop choice in every game i have seen or played in since 6th, including multiple tourneys. That whole 6+ save business along the general ineffectiveness of snipers. Fire warriors clear hordes, allowing missile sides to take on light vehicles. Kroot snipers are only more effective than fire warriors at killing TEQ or MEQ at >15" and not much more effective even then (1.6 dead meq with snipers, 1.3 dead with FW for same point value firing) . Just noticed the math on points was off also, its 420 (60x7) points of kroot to down 1 wraithknight if they are all in range.

150 ork boys walking would just be a meat grinder. I would castle up on one side of the table and watch as dire avengers and shuriken cannons poke holes in his units. If a nob dies in any squad via precision shots, i let the WK charge them VS horde orks the WK is actually better tying up whole squads than shooting, especially when they cant hurt him. If they try to run, i will run them down and move on to the next unit. Horde orks hasnt been viable since 5th and i havent seen it run in a competitive setting in a while. Eldrad would have fun with that list too, as i can set up some units normally and then redeploy when he chooses where he wants to go. Have fun walking most of the table.

Since when did i say DE needed to be in melee? the only poison DE melee is wracks besides venom blade. I admitted DE counter MCs well, but current edition eldar counter DE VERY well (AV10? nearly every squad in my army has a S6 weapon), so im not concerned.

Dantioch wrote:

If tou have checked the Tau Codex you would know that kroot are as good as, or even superior to FW as each one brings a sniper rifle so 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 of which are rending and about 3 additional wounds from failed armour saves.

True on the math, however you'll never (shouldn't ever) get 60 non-snap fire shots on a WK. WK goes 7" behind Eldar front-line models. Kroot are then 24+" away start of game. You'll be snap firing, assuming you can even get 60 models in 24". They take up a large amount of space. If you don't go first, you won't have 60 Kroot anymore.

Angelic wrote:

Dantioch wrote:

If tou have checked the Tau Codex you would know that kroot are as good as, or even superior to FW as each one brings a sniper rifle so 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 of which are rending and about 3 additional wounds from failed armour saves.

True on the math, however you'll never (shouldn't ever) get 60 non-snap fire shots on a WK. WK goes 7" behind Eldar front-line models. Kroot are then 24+" away start of game. You'll be snap firing, assuming you can even get 60 models in 24". They take up a large amount of space. If you don't go first, you won't have 60 Kroot anymore.

Just for arguments sake I'll point out that Kroot have Infiltrate so If I go first I'll have a decent chance of infiltrating tho Kroot within 24" of the wraithknight and it's gone before it gets to fire once. However 420 points to bring down a 300 point model is still not the way to go and personally I don't think I would run that many Kroot unless I knew I was up against a tripple WK army.

 zephoid wrote:

Since when did i say DE needed to be in melee? the only poison DE melee is wracks besides venom blade. I admitted DE counter MCs well, but current edition eldar counter DE VERY well (AV10? nearly every squad in my army has a S6 weapon), so im not concerned.

Fleshgauntless are getting more and more popular. Posion and ID can be potent.

Dantioch wrote:

Angelic wrote:

Dantioch wrote:

If tou have checked the Tau Codex you would know that kroot are as good as, or even superior to FW as each one brings a sniper rifle so 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 of which are rending and about 3 additional wounds from failed armour saves.

True on the math, however you'll never (shouldn't ever) get 60 non-snap fire shots on a WK. WK goes 7" behind Eldar front-line models. Kroot are then 24+" away start of game. You'll be snap firing, assuming you can even get 60 models in 24". They take up a large amount of space. If you don't go first, you won't have 60 Kroot anymore.

Just for arguments sake I'll point out that Kroot have Infiltrate so If I go first I'll have a decent chance of infiltrating tho Kroot within 24" of the wraithknight and it's gone before it gets to fire once. However 420 points to bring down a 300 point model is still not the way to go and personally I don't think I would run that many Kroot unless I knew I was up against a tripple WK army.

You apparently missed the part of my post where I made it impossible to infiltrate within 24" of the WK.

You apparently missed the part of my post where I made it impossible to infiltrate within 24" of the WK.

It was late and I didn't read the post to closely enough and for that I apologise.

 Exergy wrote:


Fleshgauntless are getting more and more popular. Posion and ID can be potent.

The fastest you could move is 6+6+12. Thats assuming you get max movement, no terrain, and your placement is perfect. Now, if you are running a DE melee force, im going to be staying as far away as possible from you. You will NEVER see melee, i dont know what you people dont get about this. 12" move+ 48" guns. I will never let you get close and will be deployed at the back edge. You are far more likely to shoot the WK down with venoms, but in that case you are essentially putting your whole army in range for him and maybe a cousin or two to wipe your venoms off the board.

Has the OP abandoned this thread? I'd like to hear how his wraithknight did 24 hours after the codex dropped. My suspicions say pretty well, as not knowing what it was probably freaked some players.

How much are kroot with sniper rifles. someone said 3.5 points a model and I'm wondering if their math is off.

Back onto the topic of what to expect in a tournament meta: Primarily practicle flexible lists with widely accepted good units. a few lists that are against the meta. A small # of fluffy lists. And then there are a small # of shock lists intended to produce a shocked look on people's faces , and where the chock value means more than victory. Example being a 10 dreadnaught ba list, not even in pods. The owner's logic "I just want to see the look on peoples faces as the dreads come walking across the table at them"

Add the triple knight + mechanized wraithguard to the potential shock lists you might see. Is it top tier competitive? nope, but that doesn't matter. Some players cannot resist the sirens call of fielding 3 giant motherfraking robots and the shocked look on the face of people unprepared to deal with it. WLD means little to those players, so expect to see it at a GT.

 zephoid wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Fleshgauntless are getting more and more popular. Posion and ID can be potent.

The fastest you could move is 6+6+12. Thats assuming you get max movement, no terrain, and your placement is perfect. Now, if you are running a DE melee force, im going to be staying as far away as possible from you. You will NEVER see melee, i dont know what you people dont get about this. 12" move+ 48" guns. I will never let you get close and will be deployed at the back edge. You are far more likely to shoot the WK down with venoms, but in that case you are essentially putting your whole army in range for him and maybe a cousin or two to wipe your venoms off the board.

so you flat out right next to the wraithknight. If he runs, he gets 12" + a possible run away. Still in range of a lot of DE charges.

what guns does it have that are 48" range. (I know eldar missile launchers, but scatter lasers, starcannons, shurkien cannons, brightlances, and wraithcannons are all shorter range) I thought it's guns were 36" range max. 30" against DE with night shields.

Wraithcannons (S10 AP2, Distort) are 36", Suncannon (S6 AP2 Heavy 3 Blast) is 48"

astro_nomicon wrote:
Wraithcannons (S10 AP2, Distort) are 36", Suncannon (S6 AP2 Heavy 3 Blast) is 48"

didnt realize suncannons were 48" still they arent terribly good at killing AV10-11 vehicles. A scatter laser is more effective.

The Iyanden supplement may have me reconsider the Wraithknights.

Being able to be the Warlord, with a good Warlord table, as well as one of the items healing wounds back on a 3+, seems pretty good. You'll never be giving up Slay the Warlord, that's for sure.

Exergy wrote:

 zephoid wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Fleshgauntless are getting more and more popular. Posion and ID can be potent.

The fastest you could move is 6+6+12. Thats assuming you get max movement, no terrain, and your placement is perfect. Now, if you are running a DE melee force, im going to be staying as far away as possible from you. You will NEVER see melee, i dont know what you people dont get about this. 12" move+ 48" guns. I will never let you get close and will be deployed at the back edge. You are far more likely to shoot the WK down with venoms, but in that case you are essentially putting your whole army in range for him and maybe a cousin or two to wipe your venoms off the board.

so you flat out right next to the wraithknight. If he runs, he gets 12" + a possible run away. Still in range of a lot of DE charges.

what guns does it have that are 48" range. (I know eldar missile launchers, but scatter lasers, starcannons, shurkien cannons, brightlances, and wraithcannons are all shorter range) I thought it's guns were 36" range max. 30" against DE with night shields.

Except that ignores the rest of the Eldar army supporting the WK, any half decent player is going to realise that it needs to be protected against DE (not that its useless, its still going to drop Venoms quite nicely) and put it in a position where it can be supported. Also if you are that close to the WK it could easily charge you as well (it can pop the Venom itself if it has to), and I5 goes before any Haemonculi/Coven type unit so it could just end up squashing you before you get a chance to attack.

Sasori wrote:The Iyanden supplement may have me reconsider the Wraithknights.

Being able to be the Warlord, with a good Warlord table, as well as one of the items healing wounds back on a 3+, seems pretty good. You'll never be giving up Slay the Warlord, that's for sure.

Tbh using an MC as your Warlord, particularly one as huge as a WK is very rarely a good idea. It is far easier to avoid Slay the Warlord if the Warlord is an IC, since he can have his squad tank shots from him, can get in transports to hide and generally move around and stay hidden much better. Essentially with an MC you are just relying on his durability, rather than other units durability and mobility. Its only going to be worth considering if the WK gets something else meaningful out of the exchange (like becoming a character).

Well he does get 5 spiritseers rolling for renew. That could get pretty awesome in a wraithlord/wraithknight list.

Tbh using an MC as your Warlord, particularly one as huge as a WK is very rarely a good idea. It is far easier to avoid Slay the Warlord if the Warlord is an IC, since he can have his squad tank shots from him, can get in transports to hide and generally move around and stay hidden much better. Essentially with an MC you are just relying on his durability, rather than other units durability and mobility. Its only going to be worth considering if the WK gets something else meaningful out of the exchange (like becoming a character).

I think it's situational, but I can see a Wraithknight, with his superior statline, and excellent maneuverability just as survivable as an Eldar IC HQ. The WK can also benefit from the healing Wraithforge item, while any other Eldar HQ would rely on Renewer. The WK also isn't as vulnerable to things like ID, and challenges.

While it would be bad in some cases, I don't think it's near as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

 zephoid wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
It's a mediocre unit that is going change the meta. There are lots of ways to deal with one.
Eldar=Any d weapon
DE=Poison
GK=Activate s8/s10 force weapon on a hammer/doom fist.
Nids=poison
Orks=tarpit it in boys
CSM=tarpit it in plague zombies

How common are D weapons? Also D cannons are 24" range
Ok, DE do counter MCs well.
Requires melee
requires melee
requires melee
requires melee

How many people bring 210 points of kroot? Yes, you can specifically counter it if you know its being run, but how many people bring kroot at all these days? Also, nice 24" range, im just going to sit at 48" and make you walk over to me. Also, check your math. 60 shots, 30 hits only FIVE 6s on average. 6 Wounds here. You would need marker lights for some of the squads to get the required number of hits.

Do you people not play the game? Jump infantry only see melee to walking infantry when the jump infantry player wants them to see melee. Why would i ever send my wraithknight into melee with your plague zombies? Or your full GK squad with hammer? Or even get close to your termigaunts? These situations wont happen unless i want them to happen.

A large portion of the wraith knights's points are for it's value as a cc unit. If it's just going to sit back and plink at 48' away the knight's owner isn't going to make good use of it's points. Plague zombies, GK, nids, and orks are perfectly ok with a knight playing patty cake at 48" while they slaughter the rest of your army. If you want to get in close and cc a vulnerable target the knight then becomes vulnerable to a charge or retaliation charge from nearby supporting units.

And to answer another question:How common are d weapons?
Answer:Expect them in almost every eldar list, and the threat range on mechanized wraithguard is 24" for the guns, 20" or so for scythes. Also almost every eldar unit in the codex can autowound and bypass armor on a 6 with monofilament or bladestorm.