There aren't going to be any proposed rules straight away in this thread. It is simply a place to collate ideas for a Necron fandex that myself, King Pariah and CthululsSpy are working on, though anyone else who wishes to contribute please feel free to do so but keep it logical and not OP please, we want this to be a real improvement on the cron codex and not a cheesefest =
The reason is there are some units that, quite simply, suck. And the only units that work work when spammed (NS, Wraiths, Scarabs/Spyders, AB etcetcetc). So what we want to do is balance out the book to stop the army becoming predictable and spammy, as well as sort out GW's nightmare pricings (AB is way too cheap and Destroyers too much, to name just a few). There are bits that need to change, so we just want to have a go. If you want to judge it Eiluj, stop us going OTT on it do so seen as you feel crons don't really need it you can keep us on a leash, feel free.
I'll suggest some changes. Just a rough idea; will need refinement -
Anni barge - increase pts cost to 120, give interceptor + skyfire
Destroyers - Give them access to hyperphase sword + wrist mounted particle caster. Possibly some access to ranged weapons as well.
Monolith - Give immunity to DS mishap.
Flayed Ones - Move to troops (where they should be), give them shred. Give them better models as well.
Wraith - increase cost by +5, give relentless (they are mining machines, after all. It will also make the transdimensional beamer worth taking)
C'tan - Immunity to poison as part of their necrodermis (oh hai! I'm a million yet old star god, and I can be killed with hemlock! >.< ), 3+ invul (see part about them being part of a god who is capable of telling reality to GTFO)
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'll suggest some changes. Just a rough idea; will need refinement -
Anni barge - increase pts cost to 120, give interceptor + skyfire
Destroyers - Give them access to hyperphase sword + wrist mounted particle caster. Possibly some access to ranged weapons as well.
Monolith - Give immunity to DS mishap.
Flayed Ones - Move to troops (where they should be), give them shred. Give them better models as well.
Wraith - increase cost by +5, give relentless (they are mining machines, after all. It will also make the transdimensional beamer worth taking)
C'tan - Immunity to poison as part of their necrodermis (oh hai! I'm a million yet old star god, and I can be killed with hemlock! >.< ), 3+ invul (see part about them being part of a god who is capable of telling reality to GTFO)
Agree to all of the above (aside from the red bit, it all ready out-shoots quadguns)
Give Lychguard 2+ save as default
give the Triarch Stalker a DCCW, its the only walker that dosent have one
I'm not sure about the Anni Barges getting Skyfire, they are already good enough as is, still good even with a point increase and no extra rules.
I agree with pretty much everything else above though
Monolith - Give back its dangerous weapons, Gauss Flux arcs S5 AP4 and an actual Particle Whip instead of a Battle Cannon, S9 AP3 and AP1 under center hole.
C'tan - bring their old stats back, they are worthless as is. T8 W5 and powers that are not pointless.
Lychguard - need a way to move around the table and assault some other way than walking, 2+ save could also help with that issue as well instead of a transport for them
Fix the Necron Lord weapons, so something other than a Warscythe might be worth while to take.
Necrons need a warlord traits table as well, all the other 6th edition codexes got one and our codex is edition 5.5 now.
And change all the fluff back to the old instead of whiny humans with human emotions in metal bodies
Oh, forgot about Warlord Traits, i have a table here (please excuse the names of them, I cannot fluff):
1: Triarch Marked:Thanks to some long-lost deed, the warriors of the ancient order come to assist the Warlord in his greatest battles. Your army gains a unit of 5 Triarch Preatorians, free of charge. These Preatorians DS in turn 2 without scatter. They do not offer any kill points/victory points, neither they can claim them (including things like First Blood/Kill the Warlord/Linebreaker). They are removed from the game at the end of the current game turn if your Warlord is killed.
2: Herald of Oblivion:The Warlord's mere prescence on the battlefield is enough to drive his forces into a destructive frenzy. Your Warlord and any unit within 18" of him, including his unit, count their weapons as Twin Linked.
3: Master of Puppets:Through clever use of Interdimensional Gates, Jamming systems and a good old confusion, the Warlord has managed to misplace his advesary's forces. Nominate D3 enemy units. Those units must start the game in reserve.If your opponant has fewer than 5 units to start on the board, re-roll this result.
4: Clairvoyant Disease:The bloodshed on the battlefield awakens some partially-flayed section of the Warlord's mind, driving him into a bezerker rage When in combat the Warlord gains D3 attacks. Roll for the bonus at the start of each fight sub-phase, before the Warlord strikes any blows.
5: Darkness Surrounding:A swirling cloud of evil techno-magical energy surrounds the Warlord and his unit, making him all but impossible to see and halting any incoming shots dead in their tracks before sending them back at their creators. The Warlord and his unit have a 4+ invulnerable save. Any shot saved in this manner may be redirected at any enemy unit within 12", with a Strength and AP equal to those of the initial shot.
6: Arcane EnhancementWherever the Warlord walks, the technosorcery of the Necrontyr fuses with the reanimation circuits of his fallen warriors, boosting and accelerating their repair All friendly units within 18" of your Warlord, including his own, gain +1 to their reanimation protocals. Note, that with a Ressurection Orb, this does result in a 3+ reanimation.
Well, with everyone getting skyfire now, the crons seemed to be left out
I would also like to see C: SM, Deldar, Orks and C:SW also be brought up to date with skyfire, and I hope that GW will make an errata to address. This is a necron fandex, however.
Not too sure about giving C'tan T8; hasn't all of the other MC been downgraded to T7?
Agreed on the warlord traits. I think this has been addressed in IA 12, however.
Lychguard do have a way to get around the table - its called a nightscythe. The problem though is that they may not charge after disembarking from it, meaning they have to weather a turn of shooting, which typically results in the sword and shield being a no brainer.
Perhaps this will help - Implacable Assault = A unit of lychguard may charge after disembarking from a vehicle. However, they may not gain a charge bonus, as some of the the momentum from the charge has been lost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IHateNids wrote: Oh, forgot about Warlord Traits, i have a table here (please excuse the names of them, I cannot fluff):
1: Triarch Marked:Thanks to some long-lost deed, the warriors of the ancient order come to assist the Warlord in his greatest battles. Your army gains a unit of 5 Triarch Preatorians, free of charge. These Preatorians DS in turn 2 without scatter. They do not offer any kill points/victory points, neither they can claim them (including things like First Blood/Kill the Warlord/Linebreaker). They are removed from the game at the end of the current game turn if your Warlord is killed.
2: Herald of Oblivion:The Warlord's mere prescence on the battlefield is enough to drive his forces into a destructive frenzy. Your Warlord and any unit within 18" of him, including his unit, count their weapons as Twin Linked.
3: Master of Puppets:Through clever use of Interdimensional Gates, Jamming systems and a good old confusion, the Warlord has managed to misplace his advesary's forces. Nominate D3 enemy units. Those units must start the game in reserve.If your opponant has fewer than 5 units to start on the board, re-roll this result.
4: Clairvoyant Disease:The bloodshed on the battlefield awakens some partially-flayed section of the Warlord's mind, driving him into a bezerker rage When in combat the Warlord gains D3 attacks. Roll for the bonus at the start of each fight sub-phase, before the Warlord strikes any blows.
5: Darkness Surrounding:A swirling cloud of evil techno-magical energy surrounds the Warlord and his unit, making him all but impossible to see and halting any incoming shots dead in their tracks before sending them back at their creators. The Warlord and his unit have a 4+ invulnerable save. Any shot saved in this manner may be redirected at any enemy unit within 12", with a Strength and AP equal to those of the initial shot.
6: Arcane EnhancementWherever the Warlord walks, the technosorcery of the Necrontyr fuses with the reanimation circuits of his fallen warriors, boosting and accelerating their repair All friendly units within 18" of your Warlord, including his own, gain +1 to their reanimation protocals. Note, that with a Ressurection Orb, this does result in a 3+ reanimation.
Not sure if accidental or intentional...either way its brilliant. I am now tempted to make James Het-cron.
There needs to be more things based on Metal, imo. If I had it my way, every single codex cover would look like its from a metal album.
That is precisely why you shouldn't let me work at GW
Not too sure about giving C'tan T8; hasn't all of the other MC been downgraded to T7?
See Eldar for that.... Also the Nurgle GD can go up to T10 with Biomancy
T8 For a C'tan is hardly out of the question anymore, in fact it was hardly a problem even in the old editions when it was harder to shoot it down.
Also think back to all the MC's that are T7 or T6, many of them, if not almost all of them, have a way of moving around the table by jump pack or flight. The C'tan however, must move its slow sad 6" every turn and then chose to run or use an ability.
With the easy access to strong, long range firepower nearly all armies have, T8 W5 with a 3++ should not be out of the question for something so slow.
Also their old rules should be updated and given back to them. Including having C'tan Phase Swords, the fact that Grey Knights (assassins) have access to C'tan Phase swords, and C'tan don't have C'tan phase swords, is so stupid it hurts to think about it.
Not too sure about giving C'tan T8; hasn't all of the other MC been downgraded to T7?
See Eldar for that.... Also the Nurgle GD can go up to T10 with Biomancy
T8 For a C'tan is hardly out of the question anymore, in fact it was hardly a problem even in the old editions when it was harder to shoot it down.
Also think back to all the MC's that our T7 or T6, many of them, if not almost all of them, have a way of moving around the table by jump pack or flight. The C'tan however, must move its slow sad 6" every turn and then chose to run or use an ability.
With the easy access to strong range firepower nearly all armies have, T8 W5 with a 3++ should not be out of the question for something so slow
Or it could keep its current stat line and be given a 12" move. Because a master of the material plane should know how to fly.
No thanks, I don't want them to be yet another flying monstrous creature, they were unique with the stats and abilities they had in the first place and they don't need to copy the stats and utility of other books.
Also their old rules should be updated and given back to them. Including having C'tan Phase Swords, the fact that Grey Knights (assassins) have access to C'tan Phase swords, and C'tan don't have C'tan phase swords, is so stupid it hurts to think about it.
In the old book it had the exact profile of a C'tan weapon, no invulnerable saves.
Now when it was updated in Grey Knights 5.5 edition they obviously changed it since nothing ignores invulns now. So It causes instant death without ignoring invulnerable saves.
On an actual C'tan, the rule should still be the exact same thing, since the C'tan Phase sword is the exact same weapon the C'tan are using.
Yeah, and please no bunny hopping Star Gods, its much scarier to have something slow and hard to kill and makes more sense for how they should be
You will have to test and be very careful about poison immunity, at the very best poison should still wound it on 6's since some weapons (Dark Eldar) don't have a S profile and heavily rely on poison for dmg output. So I still have reservations about poison protection IMHO.
I don't have the book on me so could you PM me the power names since thats all I need and I can start working on my ideas for them.
I've got to say this is a great start people we may well make this work. I agree about the LG needing a way to assault, I think the Implacable Assault rule suggested is awesome and balanced but giving NS Assault Vehicle is too OP and that's what I want to avoid.
I agree with Noir Eternal on the poison whatsit, 6+ to wound is better than total immune especially for DE. While I'm on Ctan the phase sword should be an upgrade, maybe 20-30pts? And they do need an extra wound maybe not T8 imo. Jump Infantry should also be an upgrade for 15-30pts?
The traits seem... I dunno, a tad much particularly a free TP unit, especially seen as I at least want to edit the TPs a fair bit.
Keep opinions coming folks
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: While agree that some units aren't great, every codex has things in it that hardly anyone used or never use....
Which is what I wanna change, a balanced TAC dex is better than a spammy dex. We're just gamers who want to make their codex fairer and more even to increase the variety. If you don't like it then that's no bother, you can help us tone down the way this v2.0 cron dex runs or just drop out and let us run with it, your call.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: While agree that some units aren't great, every codex has things in it that hardly anyone used or never use....
And since us Necron players most likely won't get an update to ours for many years to come, I'm sure you wouldn't mind us tinkering with only the units that are less than competitive that many of us already owned or bought thinking we would be using a lot more than 3x Annihilation Barge and the Wraith spam lists every game
Well seen as you say so....
I'd keep the stats the same overall, maybe 2+ Sv or an inv. Wargear wise the rod is ok and the PC/VB is alright too but idk what would be better. Rules wise, maybe something to show their knowledge of the lesser races (PE is trodding on Destroyers toes, so what would you recommend? And they are slightly pricey, 35pts would be a little better.
Where are these rules for praetorians? I don't see them on the thread. Anyway, I would just give them a 5+ invul. That should make them as resilient as termies.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: The rules are in the dex I was kinda running on the premise that people knew the cron dex, sorry. Basically they have RP and fearless that's it
Oh I knew that. I thought iHateNids wrote some proposed rules.
But yeah, as odd as it may sound, I don't think praets are that bad compared to LG.
They already have the movement problem fixed, they have a decent CC weapon that also have a nasty ranged ability. All they need is an invul, really, and as I said, a 5+ should make them comparable to termies and worth the 40 points.
What I would do with them is drop them down to 35pts. and then change the weapon profile of the Voidblade
Voidblade - Entropic Strike and Rends on a 4+
And now for 350 points you can have a fearless jump unit with T5, 3+ save and 3 attacks on the charge with weapons that rend on a 4+ and S6 Pistols.
They don't need an invuln with that
On a seperate note, with the profile change to the Void Blade, it would actually make it worth while for a Necron Lord to have one instead of a Warscythe in some instances
Ok Noir good call. Staying in Elites, we should probably clean up LG too. Implacable Assault from earlier, great! But what else, cos they're one dimensional atmimo
Other than the fact that Lychguard feel like a worse version of the Praetorians without fearless and mobility, I am having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. If anything because they replaced one of my favorite units from the old book, Pariahs.
Honestly to fix them I would give them a new role entirely, anti-psyker protection, which is what the Pariahs were for in the first place and why the Lychguard don't seem to have their own job.
I would first add fearless to the Lychguard. Then give them some ability, maybe an anti-psyker one that would seperate them from the rest of the codex
Aren't Lychguard meant to be the ultimate body-guards / assault troops?
Undying Servitude - As long as there is a Lord, Overlord, Cryptek or Destroyer Lord present in the unit, the Lychguard may reroll failed RP rolls. In addition, they gain fearless.
This should make them one hell of a tanking unit.
Speaking of anti psy, that should be more of a cryptek thing. Perhaps a new class of cryptek, intended solely for the purposes of countering the warp.
Harbinger of Order (because order is the antithesis of chaos; aren't I clever!)
Rod of the Void - A psyker who is hit is forced to take a leadership test. If failed, he takes perils.
Ok so maybe this;
Warp Voids; Lychguard have null field matrices woven into their armour, allowing them and their charges to be sheltered from psychic attacks and Daemonic forces. Against psychic powers used by or on a unit within 6" of the LG (including the LG themselves), Deny the With is passed on a 4+, and between 6" and 12" you may re-roll the DtW. Also, units with the Daemon special rule must re-roll succesful invulnerable saves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cthluls I like Undying servitude, but they'd still need PROPER wargear that they can customise/choose instead of all scythe of all sword/shield
Well, to start off with lets give them access to Power axes as well, and any one model may choose to have a sword or an axe at no points cost. So if you have 10 LG, 5 can have shield + sword and 5 could have shield + axe at 450 points.
Do LG need a ranged weapon? I don't think so, but I suppose they could have gauss blasters built into their scythes, as a reference to the pariahs.
Well between the two of you that is a tough choice. A Lychguard with a 3+ and a re-rollable 4+++ RP.... If they got their Armor save they would have a 92% success rate passing their saves.
If you gave them a 2+ and a 4+++RP with re-rolls, they would be at a 96% success rate at passing saves if they were allowed an armor save.
That may be a little too durable, and I think the main reason why the Monolith doesn't allow re-rolls on the WBB mechanic anymore.
On the other hand I like the Warp Voids as it gives Necrons actual anti-psyker potential like their Nightmare Fields and anti-warp Pylons in the background that they utilize
I just think that all of those combinations should be play-tested and see which version of the Lychguard was more fun to play without being some crazy deathstar unit
About Warp voids...it looks like a bit much. If they are to have psi defences, I think a simple +1 to DtW would be fine.
Does it meantion them having psi-defenses in the fluff? That's my biggest problem.
Now, I suppose we can use the warp void effect on the Cryptek of Order (TM CthuluIsSpy)
Nullification Sphere 10pts - DtW tests for all units within 18" of the bearer may be rerolled. In addition, models with the demonic special rule must also reroll their invulnerable saves.
Mind Breaker: 25pts - This wargear is used in the shooting phase. A unit with the daemonic special rule or one that is capable of psychic powers within 24" is targeted. It must immediately take a leadership test on 3D6. For every point it fails by, it takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. Vehicles are treated as having LD10
StarTrotter wrote: O.o 4-4d6? How much does the Cryptek of Order even cost? 17 possible unsaved wounds....
Woops, miscalculated. Didn't think it would be that much. Even with LD10 that's nasty. I'll change that.
Points cost...about +15? The mind breaker is another 25 points, so it adds up really quickly.
No worries! And thanks. It was really the 4d6 that scared me. Wrecks the effectiveness of every single daemon unit not to mention every MC. Anyways good luck with the Necron fandex!
For the psy defence, maybe we could bring back the pariah in a manner? Fluff justification would be something along the lines of that they're attempts to reverse the bio transference that ultimately failed. While the transference of the mind and of the Necron in question succeeded, the warp tuned flesh of the many galactic species that the crypteks experimented on had violent reactions to the innate soullessness of the Necrons. As such, they wear a necrodermis shell that acts as life support. And then maybe something about their soullessness brought into the flesh has a pariah like effect in the warp.
Also, on the C'tan shenanigans. I think either keep the T7 and bump the save to 3++ or go oldcron with T8 and a 4++. I feel that T8 3++ is a bit much.
King Pariah wrote: For the psy defence, maybe we could bring back the pariah in a manner? Fluff justification would be something along the lines of that they're attempts to reverse the bio transference that ultimately failed. While the transference of the mind and of the Necron in question succeeded, the warp tuned flesh of the many galactic species that the crypteks experimented on had violent reactions to the innate soullessness of the Necrons. As such, they wear a necrodermis shell that acts as life support. And then maybe something about their soullessness brought into the flesh has a pariah like effect in the warp.
Also, on the C'tan shenanigans. I think either keep the T7 and bump the save to 3++ or go oldcron with T8 and a 4++. I feel that T8 3++ is a bit much.
that's brilliantly explained I say we do that, now we just need to price them, possibly rewrite the stats and sort out wargear so as they don't tread on the Lychguard much, thats a great shout. Same with Ctan I say Old cron but Im open to opinion
Well, to start off with lets give them access to Power axes as well, and any one model may choose to have a sword or an axe at no points cost. So if you have 10 LG, 5 can have shield + sword and 5 could have shield + axe at 450 points.
Do LG need a ranged weapon? I don't think so, but I suppose they could have gauss blasters built into their scythes, as a reference to the pariahs.
On this, I like where you've gone with it, but I don't think guns work because I don't think it fits but that's just me. Plus if we put pariahs in as King Pariah (who else?) suggested we have no need to refer to them in other units.
IHateNids wrote: Oh, forgot about Warlord Traits, i have a table here (please excuse the names of them, I cannot fluff):
1: Triarch Marked:Thanks to some long-lost deed, the warriors of the ancient order come to assist the Warlord in his greatest battles. Your army gains a unit of 5 Triarch Preatorians, free of charge. These Preatorians DS in turn 2 without scatter. They do not offer any kill points/victory points, neither they can claim them (including things like First Blood/Kill the Warlord/Linebreaker). They are removed from the game at the end of the current game turn if your Warlord is killed.
- Sorry but no. Giving away 200pts of models to the Necron player for nothing is too much for a Warlord Trait. How about saying that all units of Triarchs in the army become scoring?
2: Herald of Oblivion:The Warlord's mere prescence on the battlefield is enough to drive his forces into a destructive frenzy. Your Warlord and any unit within 18" of him, including his unit, count their weapons as Twin Linked.
- Fine with this.
3: Master of Puppets:Through clever use of Interdimensional Gates, Jamming systems and a good old confusion, the Warlord has managed to misplace his advesary's forces. Nominate D3 enemy units. Those units must start the game in reserve.If your opponant has fewer than 5 units to start on the board, re-roll this result.
- This is fine.
4: Clairvoyant Disease:The bloodshed on the battlefield awakens some partially-flayed section of the Warlord's mind, driving him into a bezerker rage When in combat the Warlord gains D3 attacks. Roll for the bonus at the start of each fight sub-phase, before the Warlord strikes any blows.
- Yep fine.
5: Darkness Surrounding:A swirling cloud of evil techno-magical energy surrounds the Warlord and his unit, making him all but impossible to see and halting any incoming shots dead in their tracks before sending them back at their creators. The Warlord and his unit have a 4+ invulnerable save. Any shot saved in this manner may be redirected at any enemy unit within 12", with a Strength and AP equal to those of the initial shot.
- I think a 4+ invuln and the rebounding effect is a bit much seeing as Lychguard have to pay on top of their already expensive basic cost and lose warscythes to get this effect. How about giving them stealth due to the darkness + the rebound effect? Also, if I remember correctly, the Lychguard shields only rebound on a unit within 6" don't they? I would keep this the same as that personally.
6: Arcane EnhancementWherever the Warlord walks, the technosorcery of the Necrontyr fuses with the reanimation circuits of his fallen warriors, boosting and accelerating their repair All friendly units within 18" of your Warlord, including his own, gain +1 to their reanimation protocals. Note, that with a Ressurection Orb, this does result in a 3+ reanimation.
- 18" is too large an area in my opinion, as this gives him a 36" wide circle in all directions of + 1 to RP rolls, which could in theory be a whole army. I would say either keep it to the Warlord and his unit or make it 6" range like the old Resurrection Orb used to be. Stacking with the Orb is fine is the range is kept short.
Overall, I like your ideas, but feel that a few of them just need to be toned down slightly. I have a post running of custom Warlord Traits atm. Do you mind if I add these to it, with proper credit to you of course?
I agree with you rohansoldier some are a bit much. Thanks for the input every little helps. If you want to keep tabs on how we do and help us keep the dex sane and non-OP I'm sure me and the rest of us would really appreciate it.
Puscifer wrote: Why in the blue hell would you want to make the broken Dex better?
So it's got some bad units... All the codexes have bad units.
If anything, most of the units need nerfing or a significant points increase.
If that will balance the book, I know I would. All we want to do is get this dex to a position where every unit is viable but no unit is soooo OP that it must be taken *cough* Wraiths *cough* AB *cough*. We're not out to make this dex wildly OP, just balance it and un-break it.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: If that will balance the book, I know I would. All we want to do is get this dex to a position where every unit is viable but no unit is soooo OP that it must be taken *cough* Wraiths *cough* AB *cough*. We're not out to make this dex wildly OP, just balance it and un-break it.
Indeed, I know I for one got bored with Wraith spam before the new Wraiths were even released since I own a dozen of the old style. Its not like the Necron codex doesn't have competitive lists or that its not just as strong as the 6th edition books coming out. But it's definitely a very 1D book in which everyone plays a somewhat different version of the same lists and has become more boring than the original 3rd edition book IMHO. I shouldn't be forgetting that there are more heavy supports than the Annihilation Barges or that there are other things in fast attack that are not Wraiths. Even in the elites I never see anything put on the table that isn't the Stalker or Cyptek w/ Snipers. One insanely competitive option in each chart just pushes every other option to the back of the bus where the other units become comparatively much more situational and pricey.
Noir has hit the nail on the head. So... I think as well as making the duff units useful, we need to tone down/increase the price of the OP things so as to satisfy those who believe Necrons are already broken. And I think the first place to start is either Wraiths or the AB.
Am compiling massive file on Google Docs (using format outlined in "Love for Destroyers" thread).
Incorporating some points from this thread, but also a lot of points yet untouched on.
Will post results when complete.
...
unless you guys want to help with the input?
(a little wary, most of the things put forward in this thread so far have been alright, but some have bordered on wildly OP, eg. unit of free Praetorians O__O )
skoffs wrote: Am compiling massive file on Google Docs (using format outlined in "Love for Destroyers" thread).
Incorporating some points from this thread, but also a lot of points yet untouched on.
Will post results when complete.
...
unless you guys want to help with the input?
(a little wary, most of the things put forward in this thread so far have been alright, but some have bordered on wildly OP, eg. unit of free Praetorians O__O )
Count me in, it was you who got this thread started in a way. Anything you want checking I'm happy to
Then I will be helping as well since I was already planning of making my own version of the Fandex and putting it on my scribd account.
Didn't notice that part in the warlord traits, they will need adjusting then since I would rather have something more interesting than free models for the army
Lots of great suggestions here; I honestly wouldn't mind a slight points bump on Night Scythes, Wraiths, and ABs.
I don't imagine it'd be out of the question for GW to buff other units in the upcoming IA either considering it'd mean less models sold, especially with Flayed Ones as bad as they are now (granted, I've seen them incorporated in some wraithwing lists as a backfield harasser of things that like to sit and punish you).
I'd post what I've got already, but it's going to be a looooooong f'ing post. Here's the work-in-progress Google Doc instead- Necron Codex 2.0 (basic evaluations)
I've gotten mostly through the basics/most pressing entries (eg. Wraiths, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barges), but still have quite a few units yet to address (eg. Triarch Stalker, Command Barge, Monolith, etc.). Haven't really started on the Wargear/Rules section yet, but it will have to be dealt with at some point (eg. "Undying Servitude" rule and "Grav Stabilizers" wargear, just to name a couple). Also, the HQ section needs some work as well.
Remember: this is still the "what needs to be addressed" stage, so the
format applies. Once the basics are are settled, THEN the individual fine tuning should happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *reads* ... ugh, sorry, looks like my inner project leader is leaking through. (stupid business management training...)
It's fine someone has to take charge. I run the staker regularly, so I know a bit. 4oursword thinks the heat ray needs a name change (sounds too cheesy) and I think it should have a teleport homer or equivalent
Umm, okay, but I must warn you, I am extremely strict on excess (very much in favor of less is more).
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happygolucky wrote: MSS: Either get rid of them or make the enemy target take a normal LD test if failing that the suffer -D3 to their WS.
Actually, that Splinter of Madness ability Kutlakh from IA12 has (both he and enemy roll a D6 and add their LD. Enemy model has WS reduced by difference in total) would make a pretty good replacement for the current rules of Mindshackle Scarabs... but it doesn't quite match the fluff (mind control, so forced to attack allies).
Perhaps increasing their price would be best.
If you're going to balance some units in the necron codex and make them better (flayers, LG, etc) you need to remove the effectiveness of some of your bread and butter units (Night scythe, AB, etc.). Necrons have a significant amount of competition built into their framework as a race. A race where snap shots are triple as effective on certain commonly used, high strength weapons for example.
Night scythe could be an assault transport, but in so doing could/should only be allowed 1 very basic or non-telsa weapon. Crypteks, to be in line with other power wielding units, could be randomized as to what cryptek you actually get. Keep MSS, but make them a 1 handed weapon to represent the amount of concentration the character using them must exert to supplant the will of the victim. Or make it a regular leadership test, with a result of double ones making that model immune to MSS. In exchange, make flayed ones troops, give them infiltrate/outflank guaranteed on turn 2, say they can run and assault. These ideas are tossed out without forethought or any math behind them, just speculation, but you see where I'm going with this.
I've no problem with balancing the rest of the codex out, but you cannot deny that Necrons have some significantly powerful entries that work exceptionally well together. To improve one is to lessen another.
I agree deathmagiks and I hope that the finished article does that. Some good ideas there actually, I agree MSS needs a tone down or price hike, and the flayed one idea is good although the IA12 (Troops with Shred) is another option.
As regards the NS and DS the destructor is too much. Maybe a tesla CANNON (S6 2 shots) would be better because it isn't overkill, and would allow the price to stay the same because atm most flyers run S6 weapons. Not sure what you mean on Crypteks because customisability is the ethos of a RC and randomness removes that (or becomes pointless if you ge a stormtek against nids)
Aren't some models of crypteks definitely and absurdly better than others? Tremorteks went from rage inducing cheese in 5e when paired with a certain C'tan to laughable.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I agree deathmagiks and I hope that the finished article does that. Some good ideas there actually, I agree MSS needs a tone down or price hike, and the flayed one idea is good although the IA12 (Troops with Shred) is another option.
As regards the NS and DS the destructor is too much. Maybe a tesla CANNON (S6 2 shots) would be better because it isn't overkill, and would allow the price to stay the same because atm most flyers run S6 weapons. Not sure what you mean on Crypteks because customisability is the ethos of a RC and randomness removes that (or becomes pointless if you ge a stormtek against nids)
Well I think that Necrons should be subject to the random powers clause that the rest of the 40k universe seems to be heading towards, at least somehow. It doesn't make sense to me that my warlocks for Ulthwe, for example, or any psykers in general, have to random it up whilst Necrons have access to what amounts to "non-psychic" psychic powers with 100% certainty.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I agree deathmagiks and I hope that the finished article does that. Some good ideas there actually, I agree MSS needs a tone down or price hike, and the flayed one idea is good although the IA12 (Troops with Shred) is another option.
As regards the NS and DS the destructor is too much. Maybe a tesla CANNON (S6 2 shots) would be better because it isn't overkill, and would allow the price to stay the same because atm most flyers run S6 weapons. Not sure what you mean on Crypteks because customisability is the ethos of a RC and randomness removes that (or becomes pointless if you ge a stormtek against nids)
Well I think that Necrons should be subject to the random powers clause that the rest of the 40k universe seems to be heading towards, at least somehow. It doesn't make sense to me that my warlocks for Ulthwe, for example, or any psykers in general, have to random it up whilst Necrons have access to what amounts to "non-psychic" psychic powers with 100% certainty.
The only think that could really be made random is the C'tan powers as C'tan could be switched to manifesting whatever they wanted when they got to the battlefield.
And that's after the C'tan get a complete overhaul, both their fluff and rules right now is complete gak
deathmagiks wrote: If you're going to balance some units in the necron codex and make them better (flayers, LG, etc) you need to remove the effectiveness of some of your bread and butter units (Night scythe, AB, etc.).
... uhh, yes, it's been stated several times that the intention of this exercise is to balance the codex.
Obviously that means nerf as well as buff.
(why do so many people think we're only out to make a broken codex even more OP?)
Regardless, I already had some ideas regarding Nightscythes and Annihilation Barges that run along the lines you suggested.
Nightscythe Price: Increase (115 points)
Stats: N/A
Equip: Remove Tesla Destructors as standard, replace with twin linked Tesla Cannons. Can swap for twin linked Gauss Cannons or upgrade to twin linked Tesla Destructors.
Rules: Change the rule so that when Nightscythe is shot down, if there is a unit on board, roll a D6. On a 1, the embarked unit is lost (like deep strike mishap).
Other: N/A
Annihilation Barge Price: N/A (you’ll see why no decrease in a second)
Stats: N/A
Equip: Remove Tesla Destructors as standard, replace with twin linked Gauss Cannons. Can be swapped for twin linked Tesla Cannons, or upgraded to twin linked Tesla Destructors or twin linked Heavy Gauss Cannons.
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
With the Tesla Destructor no longer coming as stock standard, both vehicles are much less intimidating. The ability to use the weapon is still there, but at a premium now, so will discourage abuse.
We're talking about balancing a codex, not who's weaponry is more logic based. My point was, for purposes of gameplay, you get powers without the usual checks and balances against them.
Leave comments on what you think should be added/changed.
(I'll update the post at the top of this page to include the link as well, so it's more visible)
Umm, okay, but I must warn you, I am extremely strict on excess (very much in favor of less is more).
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happygolucky wrote: MSS: Either get rid of them or make the enemy target take a normal LD test if failing that the suffer -D3 to their WS.
Actually, that Splinter of Madness ability Kutlakh from IA12 has (both he and enemy roll a D6 and add their LD. Enemy model has WS reduced by difference in total) would make a pretty good replacement for the current rules of Mindshackle Scarabs... but it doesn't quite match the fluff (mind control, so forced to attack allies). Perhaps increasing their price would be best.
Or limit them to just one Overlord an no other Lords, but I would say you can re-write the fluff after all its your codex .
The OP wants to balance the codex. MSS is severely OP its not even funny. Now the OP can either change it so that its still good but not broken like it already is or get rid of it.
I've just read 2.0, and I think it's great. Imo though, a couple things...
Szareh.... Really a touch OP, will need to be at least Calgar price, and should have PE Nids or Hatred Nids (he thinks they're the big threat its in the fluff ish)
FO should make Fear optional rathar than given it
OL should have a dispersion shield option
Spyders should create units of Scarabs as well as add to them
Idk what people will make of this but would giving the Doom Scythe a heat ray option be viable, maybe without the melta rule?
MSS may still need pricing up or toning down?
The first warlord Trait, about Triarchs, it would be a poor ides to make a warlord Trait make something scoring. If you jhave to roll for it, you can't plan for it, so if you wanted to have a bunch of scoring Triarch praetorians you couldn't. I'd make that a HQ ability.
McNinja wrote: The first warlord Trait, about Triarchs, it would be a poor ides to make a warlord Trait make something scoring. If you jhave to roll for it, you can't plan for it, so if you wanted to have a bunch of scoring Triarch praetorians you couldn't. I'd make that a HQ ability.
Beat me to it I forgot anyway, I reckon a Triarch Adjudicator would work, infact I wrote rules and fluff for one on another thread, but 2.0 has so many HQ units it could be a case of too many. As for the trait, Perhaps this;
1. Ancient Disdain; The Warlord has clashed with his opposing number many times in the past and marks them as his most hated foe. The Warlord has the PE and Hatred USRs against the enemy Warlord, and scores a bonus VP for slaying him in a challenge. Note that this only applies to the Warlord and not his unit (his vassals don't bear the same disdain for the foe as the Warlord)
Undying Servitude needs to be nerfed. Rerolling RP seems way too overpowered. I once played a game where 9 out of 10 LG, a Lord, and a Cryptek failed their armour saves, and because of the 1 LG who survived, every single model passed the RP and got back up to wreck havoc. I know this was a rare thing, but rerolling RP would make it a common occurance. Perhaps US can give the model a +1 to their RP roll. This way, a roll of 1-3 would still fail without a RO.
FO should not be able to buy something where they can assault after DS. Shred and Fear, and fearless with their HQ are enough for 15pts/model. I would suggest removing the fearless buff the HQ gives them and replace it with making FO as troops. Perhaps instead of shred they can have PE (Everything!). With outflank, PE, fear, and the option to be troops I think they will be very much worth taking.
I don't think there needs to be any changes to Wraiths. If they aren't spammed, they aren't really a problem. Three full squads of just about anything powerful spammed would be considered overpowered.
Are AB going to be dirt cheap if all they have is a TLGC/TC to start? How would you guys feel about squadrons?
I would suggest you keep the Monolith at 200pts and just give people the pre5th version of it that they crave.
If I may humbly stroke my own ego, some revamped fluff:
Over many millenia, the Necrontyr, then still a young and aggressive race, grew to become a dominant force with a galaxy spanning empire. During their expansion, they had often encountered the Old Ones, ancient beings even then. The Old Ones were many in number then but preferred a nomadic lifestyle which allowed them and the Necrontyr to live in relative peace as the Old Ones had no territory to conquer. Their nomadic lifestyle suited them well as they went about the galaxy, finding overlooked planets that could support life but had little or none, and then creating intelligent beings similar to themselves in being in tune with the Warp. However, such a peace between this ancient race and the young hot blooded Necrontyr could not last. As the Necrontyr empire grew in size, the encounters between the two species greatly increased and the Necrontyr soon took notice of the longevity of the Old Ones. Being creatures damned to walk a brief life, the Necrontyr attempted to barter with the Old Ones for the secrets of their biological immortality. The Old Ones were unobliging. Being ancient and long lived, they moved through life with a cool temperament and few, if any, desires for things beyond their reach thus were unimpressed with the technological feats of the Necrontyr and had no need to barter with the Necrontyr. Perhaps the Old Ones would have eventually given consideration to the pleas of the Necrontyr if it were not for another factor; the Old Ones were disgusted by the mere presence of the Necrontyr, a species that had no connection nor presence in the Warp. The Fates had cast their die, the galaxy was doomed to burn.
The Necrontyr, their patience worn thin and their desperation for life consuming them, decided to launch ambushes upon some of the many small nomadic fleets of the Old Ones in order to capture and study them in hopes of discovering the secret to their seemingly limitless longevity. They, however, underestimated the power of the Warp and the Old Ones who wielded that power. The psychic screams of the Old Ones who were experimented upon resounded across the galaxy, alerting their brethren to their crisis. The Old Ones, normally slow to anger, quickly united, and in the defense of their brethren and protection of their own species, launched a war that of the likes would never be seen again. Thus what would come to be known as The War in Heaven began.
The War in Heaven
The Old Ones were well aware of the technological marvels the Necrontyr were capable of and knew a direct march against the Necrontyr Empire would place the odds against themselves. They found their answer in the Webway, an amazing piece of technology in itself, it was a subspace, a sprawl of tunnels that lay between the Warp itself and reality that allowed one the ability to cross the span of the galaxy within a blink of an eye. Herein lie the key to the Old Ones' initial victory. Using the Webway, the Old Ones launched a series of surprise assaults upon the very worlds ruled by the Necrontyr, decimating planet after planet before the might of the Necrontyr military could be brought to bear. For two solid centuries, the Necrontyr were damned to fight a defensive war that they could not hope to win. In hopes of retaining their empire, they tried to press for peace with the Old Ones sending ambassadors to plead on their behalf. It was all for naught. The Old Ones, as slow as they were to anger, were equally, if not more so, slow to allay. There was no room for mercy for the Necrontyr.
Ceasefire
The light of hope against the Old Ones' relentless onslaught lay within the minds of a now forgotten group of Necrontyr scientists known as crypteks. These crypteks had been studying and experimenting upon the few Old Ones that the Necrontyr had been able to abduct and had stumbled upon the discovery of the Warp and through further interrogation, the Webway. Understanding the nature of the Warp and what the Warp truly is, they abandoned the project for immortality, as what use is long life if they could not stay or counter the devastating campaign of the Old Ones? Now, they began trying to discover a method wherein they could take away from the Old Ones their source of power. After many experiments and the deaths of all the Old Ones the Necrontyr held, these crypteks had successfully created an arcane engine that could severe the connection between reality and the Warp. Quickly, the Necrontyr erected massive obelisks that housed these arcane devices upon the meager few worlds they were now crowded upon and successfully created a relatively small sphere of influence in which the Old Ones could no longer access the Warp. The advance of the Old Ones had been halted, within the Warp dead sphere of influence of the Necrontyr, the Old Ones had lost their one key advantage, now they began patrolling the new border of the Necrontyr empire, ready to pounce upon any Necrontyr ship that dare stray across the invisible line. The war had been brought to a pause.
The Era of Despair
The Necrontyr were not given much time to relax, though now safe from the Webway borne assaults, they now faced a grave internal crisis that threatened to finish what the Old Ones started. The entire Necrontyr race was trapped in the area of real space they had severed from the Warp, any vessel that tried to leave the area was quickly destroyed by the Old Ones and now increasing amounts of the races the Old Ones had created including the Eldar. Being thus trapped upon a few increasingly overcrowded worlds and vessels, the Necrontyr now faced a silent enemy they had long since forgotten of: Famine. Quickly dissent grew within the Empire and soon Dynasties began rebelling and striking out at one another in hopes of gathering enough resources to sustain themselves. The Triarch, the triumvirate of Necrontyr Lords that ruled the Empire, could only sit by and watch silently, quietly cursing the Old Ones as did all Necrontyr. Utter destruction loomed upon the horizon for the Necrontyr and all seemed hopeless and lost. But in this dark hour, the crypteks once again found a ray of hope, the C'tan.
Coming of the C'tan
The crypteks had turned to the stars with desperation in search for a method in which they could save the Necrontyr. Somehow, they discovered the C'tan, immortal behemoths of cosmic energy that feasted upon the stars, and somehow, they were able to attract the attention and interest of these beings who had gone through billions of years of only moving from star to star in search of sustenance. The crypteks were convinced that they had discovered the gods themselves, and in order to better interact with these star gods, they crafted necrodermis shells that could house the immense essence of the C'tan. The C'tan soon learned of the plight of the Necrontyr and like gracious gods, went out and pacified the Dynasties, seemingly pulling out from thin air all the resources the Necrontyr were desperate for and more. After quelling the insurrections, the C'tan sent one of their own, now known as the Deceiver, to speak to the Triarch who had become known as the Silent Kings for their inability to do anything when their people were caught up in utter despair. The Deceiver wove a tale of tragedy of the C'tan, that they were once a race like the Necrontyr, doomed to walk a brief existence who found hope in the seemingly immortal beings the Necrontyr knew as the Old Ones. Just like the Necrontyr, the had attempted to barter for the secrets to immortality but the Old Ones would have none of it and had viciously attacked them in a war that doomed the C'tan to extinction. The C'tan however, found a ray of hope when a scientist of theirs had discovered a way to both gain the immortality they so longed for and an escape from elusive yet deadly Old Ones in the forms they held now. Alas, only a meager handful had been able to obtain this form of energy when the Old Ones had come about in full force and in one decisive blow, had wiped out the billions of C'tan that had yet to obtain such godhood including the genius who had made the current form the C'tan held possible. The Triarch were deeply moved by this tale, not knowing the deceitful nature of the C'tan. The Deceiver, well aware that the Triarch were now pawns to the C'tan brought forth a plan that would ensnare the Triarch and damn the entirety of the Necrontyr Race.
The Heavens Burn
The Deceiver, after telling the false tale of the C'tan to the Triarch, then offered a deal that the Triarch could not refuse. The C'tan were thirsty for vengeance and with their knowledge of real space and the numbers and technological prowess of the Necrontyr, it would be possible for them to bring the Old Ones to justice once and for all. In return for their revenge, the C'tan would gather their best minds to try and discover a way in which the Necrontyr could ascend to immortality. The secrets of how to ascend to the level of the C'tan were lost, the Deceiver said, but he was certain that his brethren would be fully capable of discovering a way to give the Necrontyr a different form in which they would obtain the long life they were so desperate to have. The Triarch were overjoyed, it seemed that the Fates had finally chosen to graciously reward the Necrontyr race after millenia upon millenia of what had seemed to be fruitless struggle. If they had only known then what so many of their kind know now.
With the wealth of knowledge of the C'tan and their reality altering powers, the Necrontyr launched a new assault upon the Old Ones. With the knowledge provided by the C'tan, the crypteks of the Necrontyr were able to construct faster than light engines that could compete with the lightning speed of the Webway. Rapidly, the Necrontyr were able to advance and reclaim the empire that had once been theirs with the help of the C'tan who could annihilate entire fleets of the Old Ones within moments. However, the Old Ones had allies of their own in their creations such as the Eldar and the Krork and quickly brought to bear the immense numbers of these creatures in tune with the Warp. Once again the galaxy was set ablaze in a bloody standstill between the immense might of the weaponry of the C'tan and the Necrontyr and the raw numbers of the Old Ones and their creation along with their Warp spawned powers. For decades the galaxy burned in a flame of war that seemed to never falter and would go on forever, but every war must come to an end.
The Birth of the Necrons
The breakthrough in the war came when the Deceiver proclaimed to the Triarch that they had found a way to grant immortality to the Necrontyr race, if the Necrontyr were willing to give up their flesh, the C'tan would then place the essence of the Necrontyr into bodies of living metal much like the ones the C'tan themselves now inhabited in which they would be able to recover from all but the most devastating injury within moments. These shells also had a series of back up systems so in the event that a Necrontyr was damaged beyond the recovery capabilities of the necrodermis, the scraps of their body as well as their mind would be teleported back to a factory in which their conscious would enter a new body. The Triarch were greatly pleased and sent out a verdict to the Necrontyr to inhabit these new immortal bodies. Many came willingly in joy of eternal life. Few others rebelled as it was not the form of immortality that they had wished for but were quickly subdued and forced into the roaring furnaces the C'tan had constructed to transfer the minds of the the Necrontyr. Little did the Necrontyr know that they had in fact been betrayed by the C'tan.
The Necrontyr could not have known that when they inhabited these bodies of metal, they had surrendered their will and life essence to the C'tan. The C'tan had always planned to enslave the Necrontyr but during the war they had discovered a tasty morsel the raging stars they had fed on for so long could not compare to. The essence of life. The C'tan had stumbled upon this discovery quite by accident when destroying a large fleet of the Old Ones when one of their kind had detected some form of energy leaving the bodies of the Old Ones, snatching it up, the star god had discovered a delicious treat that invigorated his entire being and increased his powers greatly. For years he had hidden this secret from his brethren until he believed he had reached a point that would be untenable by his brethren. Then did he reveal this secret to the other C'tan who in glee joined him in his feasting of the essence of life, this C'tan was none other than the Void Dragon. It was the Deceiver however, who brought to the attention of the C'tan that their allies, the Necrontyr, were in fact a meal in waiting. The C'tan then had almost turned upon the Necrontyr except for that the Deceiver also pointed out that they could easily be turned into legions forever bound to their will. Thus did the C'tan devise the bodies the Necrontyr, now Necrons, would inhabit stripping them of their life essence while giving them that immortality the had been so desperate to obtain. The C'tan had also realized that they only needed the minds of the most capable of the Necrons, but they needed these minds to remain loyal to themselves. From here they crafted a devious plot in which they inserted a program into every Necron body that would override the will of the Necron when given commands by their new masters that the Necrons would be unable to detect as they would think it was their own choice to follow the advice of the C'tan. As to not arouse suspicion early on, all the Necrons were allowed to retain their minds, but even here the C'tan had come up with a scheme that would only allow the most brilliant and capable minds to be retained. In the bodies inhabited by the average citizens of the Necrontyr, their minds would slowly decay into those of subservient slave with no will of their own and an incapability to think for themselves. The soldiers the C'tan believed needed to be able to make decisions but had no need for individuality nor personality and their bodies were infused with a program to slowly destroy that. Those of higher rank and intelligence the C'tan left them their personalities to varying degrees to allow them to be able to still be effective upon the field of battle. With their new Necron slaves, the C'tan began a bloody harvest of life in the galaxy.
A Galaxy in Ashes
With the bodies of living metal the Necrons now possessed and the ever growing powers of the C'tan, the Old Ones were thrown into desperation. They began creating life forms to counter the Necrons such as the technologically savvy Jokaero, but it was all for naught.Over many millenia, the Old Ones were pushed towards extinction and desperate measures. They disappeared into the Webway, a safe haven they were certain in which they were unreachable by the likes of the Necrons and the C'tan, and began working on one last desperate project to counter the C'tan.
With the Old Ones gone, much of the galaxy was damned and entire species were annihilated by the C'tan and their slaves. Knowing the Old Ones had hid away in the space beyond space, the put their minds as well as the best minds of the crypteks together in order to discover a way to break into the Webway. After many years, they created the Dolmein Gates, a technological masterpiece that allowed the C'tan to rip into the Webway and chase down the Old Ones. The Old Ones, knowing full well that defeat and extinction were close at hand, set their project into motion. When the last of the Old Ones fell, a powerful psychic scream was released across the Warp birthing god like beings and planting seeds for more to come in the ensuing chaos that engulfed much of the Warp. The chaos resulted in Enslavers, beings that naturally live within the Warp, bursting through the boundary that seperates reality from the Warp, feasting upon the minds and souls of those in tune with the Warp, driving them into hiding. The C'tan soon realized that the Old Ones had devised a plan in which if they were to die, they would also take away from the C'tan their source of food, the galaxy had become a wasteland with hardly any life left.
The Long Sleep
The C'tan, though tremendously enraged at having been foiled by the Old Ones in their death, were not in a state of panic. Being the ethereal creatures they were, they had been born when the universe was created and knew that life would bloom once more from the ashes of the galaxy, for that was the very nature of life itself. Quickly they and their Necron servants constructed tombworlds throughout the galaxy in which they would slumber until the galaxy was once more filled with life ripe for another harvest. Suddenly, the galaxy was at peace. Those who arose from the ashes first were the Eldar and the Krork, and soon new life began to grow once. They would have millions of years to themselves before the Necrons would arise to plague the galaxy once more.
Awaking to a New Galaxy
After millions of years of slumber, the Necrons began to stir, making themselves known to the galaxy once more. The Awoken Lords discovered a galaxy teeming with life and war, and that they indeed had not been able to purge the galaxy of the warp tainted scum they so deeply had grown to loathe. The waking Necrons quickly began reestablishing their empire, taking back what was their from the warp tainted scum, the creations of the Old Ones. The galaxy, already quaking with violence, precariously teetering on the edge of utter collapse, had now a new menace to face.
Splitting of the Empire
As the Necrons awoke, they discovered their godly masters remained asleep. Try as they might, the Necrons could not waken the C'tan. After a prolonged time of operating without the C'tan, the protocols the C'tan had implanted in the Necrons - which bent their will to the C'tan - shut down in many of the Necrons. Suddenly regaining their willpower, the overall empire of the Necrons began splitting. Some loathed their bodies of living metal, preferring their old mortal bodies of flesh to the callous cold metal bodies they had now, and began recruiting crypteks to find a way to reverse the biotransference. Some had found their bodies to be a great boon, the pinnacle of evolution even. However, they were as disturbed and enraged as their brethren who craved the old bodies of flesh at the C'tan for imprisoning and destroying their minds. Others decided to remain in line with the will of the C'tan afterall, who were they to question the wisdom of such ancient and powerful gods? However, for every Necron Lord that had regained their will and mind, there was another that remained bound to the C'tan's will, a massive relentless wave of merciless slaughter.
The Sleeping Gods
In their initial search for a way to awaken the C'tan, the crypteks had stumbled upon a way in which they could isolate relatively small shards of the essence of the C'tan and forcefully awaken them. With this technology now in hand, the many dynasties began utilizing it for their many purposes. Some enslaved these shards as their entirety had done to them, using them as weapons against the warp tainted creatures of the galaxy. Though nowhere near as powerful as a C'tan as a whole, these shards remained as devastating as ever to the enemies of the Necrons. Other Lords had their crypteks begin to break apart the sleeping C'tan, imprisoning the broken up essences in the tesseract labryrinthes, inescapable dimensional prisons. However, those that still follow the will of the C'tan use the shards in order to fight alongside their masters and lead them into battle like the days of old.
Nonetheless, no matter how much of the essence of the C'tan has been seperated from the whole, they remain sleeping with no sign of stirring. Whether this was by accident or design, no one knows. Some say it was a boon from the fates to reverse their betrayal unto the C'tan. Others say that the C'tan are well aware of the situation of the galaxy and have deemed it not yet ripe for a new red harvest. Few speculate that the gods are waiting until the Spawn of the Old Ones have succeeded in wiping themselves out before waking and creating a galaxy they see fit for themselves. Whatever the reason may be, there is one thing the Necrons are certain of; the C'tan will sleep for many more millenia.
That is quite the fluff I have to say. Couple of things though; How did the Flayed Ones develop seen as I doubt they would be sanctioned by Crons and were (according to v1.0 fluff) made by a destroyed Ctan cursing them)? What became of Szareh and the Triarch? Do they serve the Ctan or are they independent of them?
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Dethchef wrote: Went through the fandex. Here are some thoughts:
Undying Servitude needs to be nerfed. Rerolling RP seems way too overpowered. I once played a game where 9 out of 10 LG, a Lord, and a Cryptek failed their armour saves, and because of the 1 LG who survived, every single model passed the RP and got back up to wreck havoc. I know this was a rare thing, but rerolling RP would make it a common occurance. Perhaps US can give the model a +1 to their RP roll. This way, a roll of 1-3 would still fail without a RO.
FO should not be able to buy something where they can assault after DS. Shred and Fear, and fearless with their HQ are enough for 15pts/model. I would suggest removing the fearless buff the HQ gives them and replace it with making FO as troops. Perhaps instead of shred they can have PE (Everything!). With outflank, PE, fear, and the option to be troops I think they will be very much worth taking.
I don't think there needs to be any changes to Wraiths. If they aren't spammed, they aren't really a problem. Three full squads of just about anything powerful spammed would be considered overpowered.
Are AB going to be dirt cheap if all they have is a TLGC/TC to start? How would you guys feel about squadrons?
I would suggest you keep the Monolith at 200pts and just give people the pre5th version of it that they crave.
I'm unsure on Undying Servitude actually, some quick math (correct me if i'm wrong) tells me re-roll gives a 20/36 or 5/9 success and +1 is 18/36 or 1/2, but 3/4 with a RO, and with an RO re-roll its also 3/4 i THINK, so it seems almost negligible the difference
PE for FO is kinda trodding on Destroyers toes isn't it? Maybe make shred an upgrade instead, because I don't think FO's will care what the foe is they'll just wanna kill it.
Wraiths are great, spammed or not, in 1.0, mandatory even in competitive lists unless you were spamming elsewhere.
AB squadrons.... if people splash out on destructors, suddenly you've got 9 of them potentially!
King Pariah wrote: If I may humbly stroke my own ego, some revamped fluff:
*fluff*
The Necrons' "we've killed our gods" fluff is maybe the most original thing in the whole Warhammer 40k universe. Everyone else is a slave of one or more gods (except maybe the Tau)....Except the Necrons, where the gods are the slaves! If you ask me, this is super awesome!
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: The reason is there are some units that, quite simply, suck. And the only units that work work when spammed (NS, Wraiths, Scarabs/Spyders, AB etcetcetc). So what we want to do is balance out the book to stop the army becoming predictable and spammy, as well as sort out GW's nightmare pricings (AB is way too cheap and Destroyers too much, to name just a few). There are bits that need to change, so we just want to have a go. If you want to judge it Eiluj, stop us going OTT on it do so seen as you feel crons don't really need it you can keep us on a leash, feel free.
Its a pity a few of your units "suck". Guess it's the only codex with a wasted FOC slot...
Solo, all we want to do is balance our dex out. We're not saying its a bad book. We're not saying its not OP in places. But we are saying some bits need toning down and some need a boost, read skoffs attempt at 2.0 and you'll see. If all you want to do is tell us its a wasted project, that we shouldn't bother, be my guest. But we're gonna do it anyway, because we think we can. Every dex needs changes, even the new ones I bet like DA do.
Dethchef wrote: Went through the fandex. Here are some thoughts:
Undying Servitude needs to be nerfed. Rerolling RP seems way too overpowered. I once played a game where 9 out of 10 LG, a Lord, and a Cryptek failed their armour saves, and because of the 1 LG who survived, every single model passed the RP and got back up to wreck havoc. I know this was a rare thing, but rerolling RP would make it a common occurance. Perhaps US can give the model a +1 to their RP roll. This way, a roll of 1-3 would still fail without a RO.
A +1 would be a terrible idea. All you have to do is add a RO and now they are getting up on a 3+.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: The reason is there are some units that, quite simply, suck. And the only units that work work when spammed (NS, Wraiths, Scarabs/Spyders, AB etcetcetc). So what we want to do is balance out the book to stop the army becoming predictable and spammy, as well as sort out GW's nightmare pricings (AB is way too cheap and Destroyers too much, to name just a few). There are bits that need to change, so we just want to have a go. If you want to judge it Eiluj, stop us going OTT on it do so seen as you feel crons don't really need it you can keep us on a leash, feel free.
Its a pity a few of your units "suck". Guess it's the only codex with a wasted FOC slot...
Seriously?
I guess you're right. Just because the army is already competitive because of their ability to spam the three or four fantastic units while the rest languish in disuse means they shouldn't even begin to try to balance it out. That would be silly. I mean, who actually wants a c'tan to be competitive?
I'd post what I've got already, but it's going to be a looooooong f'ing post. Here's the work-in-progress Google Doc instead- Necron Codex 2.0 (basic evaluations)
I've gotten mostly through the basics/most pressing entries (eg. Wraiths, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barges), but still have quite a few units yet to address (eg. Triarch Stalker, Command Barge, Monolith, etc.). Haven't really started on the Wargear/Rules section yet, but it will have to be dealt with at some point (eg. "Undying Servitude" rule and "Grav Stabilizers" wargear, just to name a couple). Also, the HQ section needs some work as well.
Remember: this is still the "what needs to be addressed" stage, so the
format applies. Once the basics are are settled, THEN the individual fine tuning should happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *reads* ... ugh, sorry, looks like my inner project leader is leaking through. (stupid business management training...)
If business management training is stupid, then my name is Ricardio. Hint: it isn't.
I'll go through the doc you created and fill everything in.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: That is quite the fluff I have to say. Couple of things though;
How did the Flayed Ones develop seen as I doubt they would be sanctioned by Crons and were (according to v1.0 fluff) made by a destroyed Ctan cursing them)?
What became of Szareh and the Triarch? Do they serve the Ctan or are they independent of them?
Flayed Ones I'm thinking would be more like the Oldcron Flayed Ones which, imo, are so much better than the current rendition (simply put, driven insane to be of the living again rather than curse of the robot zombies)
I think that it'd be amusing for the Triarch to have split up and each of the three to now lead one of the three distinctive factions that have developed.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: The reason is there are some units that, quite simply, suck. And the only units that work work when spammed (NS, Wraiths, Scarabs/Spyders, AB etcetcetc). So what we want to do is balance out the book to stop the army becoming predictable and spammy, as well as sort out GW's nightmare pricings (AB is way too cheap and Destroyers too much, to name just a few). There are bits that need to change, so we just want to have a go. If you want to judge it Eiluj, stop us going OTT on it do so seen as you feel crons don't really need it you can keep us on a leash, feel free.
Its a pity a few of your units "suck". Guess it's the only codex with a wasted FOC slot...
Seriously?
Frankly, I believe that all the units within all codices should be viable and balanced. This is just an attempt on Crons.
RULES
Undying Servitude - if HQ present in unit, that unit may reroll failed RP and LoS rolls.
Phaeron – The rule no longer grants Relentless. Instead, the Warlord may pick his Warlord trait.
WARGEAR
Heat Blaster - lower strength version of the Heat Ray. 12" S7 AP2 Heavy 1 Melta/Template S5 AP4 Heavy 1.
Gravity Stabilizers - Grants Relentless.
Gauntlet of Flame - R: Template S:4 AP:5 Type: Assault 1, Torrent
Mindshackle Scarabs - increase price (20 points). LD test on only 2D6, but reroll successful passes.
Staff of Light – This is uses the following profiles:
R:18" S:5 AP:3 Type: Assault 3
R:- S:User AP:3 Type: Melee, Two Handed
WARLORD TRAITS
Favored of the Triarch – Triarch Praetorians are scoring. Triarch Stalkers may be taken as both Elite and Heavy Support options.
Unyeilding Command – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Stubborn rule.
Conqueror of Old – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Crusader rule
Ancient Hatred – The army may not have any C’tan Shards. A single non-vehicle Elite unit may be as a Troop.
A Use for the Conquered – The army may take C’tan Shards as both Elite and Heavy Support options.
Always a Plan in Motion – You may re-roll any reserve roll. In addition, all models that can outflank gain the Acute Senses rule.
HQ
Spoiler:
Imotekh the Stormlord
Price: 225
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+
Equip: Remove Bloodswarm Nano-Scarabs (why, of all HQ, did HE have them?), Staff of the Destroyer is also an AP1 Power Axe
Rules: Same
Other:
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Price: Same
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: Take out Hit and Run on the list of rules he can give to friendly units and replace it with Crusader and add Interceptor to the list.
Vargard Obyron
Price: same
Stats: same
Equip: same
Rules: same
Other: same
Illuminor Szeras
Price: Same
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Warrior/Immortal upgrades chosen, rather than randomly decided.
Other: Same
Orikan the Diviner
Price: 170
Stats: same
Equip: include Chronometron how is it the greatest Chronomancer in the universe doesn’t carry a Chronometron?) – this may be to prevent insane Empowered shenanigans
Rules: same
Other: how is it the greatest Chronomancer in the universe doesn’t carry a Chronometron?) – this may be to prevent insane Empowered shenanigans, cost is adjusted to include those shenanigans
Anrakyr the Traveler
Price: same
Stats: same
Equip: same
Rules: Mind in the Machine may be used from any open-topped vehicle.
Other: Phyrrian Eternals – No longer Counter-Attack and Furious Charge, instead grants Fearless and Crusader.
Trazyn the Infinite
Price: Same
Stats: Same
Equip: Tesseract Labyrinth (... you would think he would already carry one, really)
Rules: Same
Other: Empathic Obliterator is AP3
Sahtah the Enfleshed (Flayer Overlord)
Price: 140
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Bloodswarm Nano-scarabs (Change so that marked unit is chosen by player, not randomly assigned).
Rules: Rending, Shred, Fearless, Fear
Other: Flayed Ones he joins Gain the Crusader rule. No Crypteks can be in Royal Court if Sahtah is your Warlord, only Lords (Lords can join units of Flayed Ones).
Executioner Ezandrakh (Destroyer Overlord)
Price: 190
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+
Equip: Red Harvester (Warscythe with Fleshbane instead of Armorbane). Gaze of Flame, Sempiternal Weave
Rules: Preferred Enemy (EVERYTHING!), Hatred (Infantry), Rage
Other: Destroyers as troops. Option to include up to two Destroyers as Bodyguards. These are normal destroyers and can choose between two Hyperphase Swords or a Warscythe, but do not take up any FOC slot.
Szarekh, the Silent King (he’s a pacifist Overlord)
Price: 200
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+
Equip: The Silence (CCW/flame template shooting weapon. models hit (not just wounded) must pass a LD test or suffer from reduced stats (same effect as Chrono-tek’s staff). When Szarekh’s unit is assaulted, assaulting unit must take LD test with +D3 to score. If LD test failed, assault auto fails), Crown of Command (units he joins get +1 to rolls made with Undying Servitude),
Rules: Grants “Undying Servitude” to units he joins. “Order Above All Else” (the only Harbingers allowed in Szarekh’s Royal Court are Harbinger of Order. Generic Crypteks and Lords are fine, too). “The Final Word” (when Szarekh loses his final wound and fails to Resurrect, place a large blast template over his Reanimation marker. All models under the template must take a strength test. Models who fail the strength test are removed as a casualty, with no saves of any kind allowed).
Other: Praetorians as troops.
Generic Overlord
Price: 80
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: May be upgraded to Lord of the Triarch for 20 points – in addition to making Triarch Praetorians troops, the Overlord gains a Rod of Convent and his unit type becomes Jump Infantry.
Destroyer Lord
Price: 120
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: Same
ROYAL COURT
Spoiler:
Lord
Price: 35
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: Same
Generic Cryptek
Price: 25
Stats: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: Same
Harbinger of Destruction
Price:
Stats:
Equip:
Rules:
Other:
Harbinger of Transmogrification
Price:
Stats:
Equip:
Rules:
Other:
Harbinger of the Storm
Price:
Stats:
Equip:
Rules:
Other:
Harbinger of Eternity
Price:
Stats:
Equip: Staff should be shooting weapon as well as CCW .
Rules:
Other:
Harbinger of Despair
Price:
Stats:
Equip:
Rules:
Other:
Harbinger of Order
Price: +15 to Cryptek
Stats: See Cryptek
Equip: Gloom Prism. Rod of Absolution (shooting weapon with Exile Ray flame template). Beacon of Precision (units aiming to deep strike within 6” of Order-tek do not scatter).
Rules: None
Other: None
TRANSPORT
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge
Price: 75
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Same
Other: Same
Ghost Ark
Price: Decrease (100 points)
Stats: Increase carrying capacity to 12.
Equip: Remove Repair Barge ability as standard. Include Repair Barge as purchasable equipment upgrade (would then re-restrict occupants to only Warriors and HQ).
Rules:N/A
Other: Remove “Warriors & HQ only” occupant restriction (allowing other units to take it would give ‘Crons access to a secondary transport option, thus reducing reliance on Nightscythes. Because it is option topped, that would also mean models can assault from it, meaning Lychguard might become useful)
Night Scythe
Price: Increase (125 points)
Stats: Same
Equip: Same
Rules: Same – Still the best transport in the game. No reason to add arbitrary restrictions.
Other: Same
TROOPS
Spoiler:
No changes needed for Warriors or Immortals
Flayed Ones
Price: 15 points
Stats: Same
Equip: None
Rules: Fear, Shred, Fearless, Infiltrate, Reanimation Protocols, Blood Strike – Flayed Ones have the Deep Strike rule and may assault the same turn they come in from Reserves, but it is a disordered charge.
Other: Same
ELITES
Spoiler:
Deathmarks
Price: N/A
Stats: N/A
Equip: N/A
Rules: Ethereal Interception to grant Interceptor rule as well (duh).
Other: N/A
Lychguard
Price: Increase (45 points)
Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Add the following to the list of upgrades
May replace Warscythe with up to two of the following. The unit may take any combination:
Hyperphase Sword - Free
Hyperphase Axe (Power Axe) - Free
Dispersion Shield – 10 points
May take Sempiternal Weave for 10 points
Rules: give “Undying Servitude” and Unswerving Loyalty – If the Warlord is in a unit of Lychguard, they automatically pass Look Out Sir! rolls.
Other: Able to mix and match wargear instead of being restricted to entire unit being equipped with exact same weapons. Include ability to equip two CCWs.
Triarch Praetorians
Price: Same
Stats: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Rod of covenant loses Unwieldy
Rules: Interdiction - Triarch Praetorians lie in wait, hovering above a battle until the time is right. Triarch Praetorians always start the game in reserve, unless the Praetorians are part of the Warlord's unit. They may come in from Reserves on turn one.
Other: They didn't sleep during the eons, earning them WS5, and their cost justifies removing unwieldy and adding another attack.
C'tan Shards
Price: Decrease (160 points)
Stats: N/A (see below)
Equip: Change to powers are as follows. A C’tan Shard must pick at least one power and may have up to three:
Entropic Touch – Close combat attacks have the Rending and Entropic Touch rules.
Gaze of Death – Same
Grand Illusion – Same
Lord of Fire – Increase range to 18”
Moulder of Worlds – Complete change – The C’tan reshapes the world as it sees fit, lowering hills and moving reality to disorient its foes. Once per game, the C’tan may roll a D3. It may then move that many pieces of terrain up to 3” in any direction. If any models are in the way, move them; they are not killed, simply shaken as they earth moves under their feet.
Pyreshards – Uses the following profile: R:18” S:4 AP:- Type: Assault 10
Sentient Singularity – Any model that attempts to Deep Strike within 6” of the C’tan automatically mishaps. Any enemy vehicle that attempts to move at all within 6” of the C’tan takes a Dangerous Terrain test. Any enemy non-vehicle models that attempt to move within 6” of the C’tan must take a Toughness test or be removed from play with no armor saves allowed.
Swarm of Spirit Dust – The C’tan gains Assault and Defensive Grenades as well as the Shrouded rule. At the beginning of each Fight sub-phase, each unit in combat with the C’tan Shard must take a Blind test.
Time’s Arrow – Same
Transdimensional Thunderbolt – R:24” S:7 AP:- Type: Assault 4, Tesla, Arc
Eternal Form – 50 points - The C’tan gains a 2+ Armor save and 3+ Invulnerable save.
Phaseblade – 25 points – This is a close combat weapon that uses the following profile: R:- S:User AP:1 Type: Melee, Instant Death. Any successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by this weapon must be re-rolled.
Rules: Poisoned weapons or weapons that wound on a flat D6 roll (such as snipers) only wound on a 6.
Other: Must choose one of the following:
Living Adamantine – C’tan Shard becomes S8, T8, and I3
Living Quicksilver – C’tan Shard becomes T6 and I5 and becomes a Jump Monstrous Creature
Triarch Stalker
Price: 140
Stats: Same
Equip: Hyperphase Blades – These are two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.
Rules:
Other: Remove the rider on the top of physical model and replace with guns, instead of having them underneath.
FAST ATTACK
Spoiler:
Canoptek Wraiths
Price: 30
Stats: N/A
Equip: On the Option list, replace Particle Caster with Hyperphase Sword and Transdimensional Beamer with Phase Shifter.
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
Tomb Blades
Price: N/A
Stats: N/A
Equip: One Tomb Blade may take a Heat Blaster for 10 points
Up to three Tomb Blades may take a Transdimensional Beamer for 10 points
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
Destroyers
Price: Decrease (35pts)
Stats: Destroyer is the same
Heavy Destroyer: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+
Equip: Add the following to the Option list:
A Destroyer may replace its Gauss Cannon with
Tesla Cannon – Free
Hyperphase Sword – Free
Warscythe – 10 points
OR
Heavy Destroyer upgrade is 10 points. Any Heavy Destroyer may take one of the following:
Two Hyperphase Swords – 5 points
Heavy Gauss cannon – 10 points
Warscythe – 10 points
Tesla Destructor – 15 points
Gravity Stabilizers – 10 points
Any combination of the above option may be used in a single unit. A unit may have both Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers in it.
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
HEAVY SUPPORT
Spoiler:
Annihilation Barge
Price: N/A (you’ll see why no decrease in a second)
Stats: N/A
Equip: Remove Tesla Destructors as standard, replace with twin linked Gauss Cannons. Can be swapped for twin linked Tesla Cannons, or upgraded to twin linked Tesla Destructors or twin linked Heavy Gauss Cannons.
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
Doomsday Ark
Price: Decrease (160)
Stats: N/A
Equip: A Shadowloom as purchased for 10 points
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
Doom Scythe
Price: Decrease (150 points)
Stats: N/A
Equip: Remove Tesla Destructors as standard, replace with twin linked Gauss Cannons. Can swap for twin linked Tesla Cannons for free or upgrade to twin linked Tesla Destructors for +15 points
Rules: N/A
Other: N/A
Monolith
Price: Decrease (180 points)
Stats: N/A
Equip: N/A
Rules: Massive – The Monolith never rolls on the mishap table. Instead, if the Monolith scatters onto an enemy unit or terrain, reduce the scatter by the shortest amount possible to prevent it from doing so.
Other: N/A
Now, I suppose we can use the warp void effect on the Cryptek of Order (TM CthuluIsSpy)
Nullification Sphere 10pts - DtW tests for all units within 18" of the bearer may be rerolled. In addition, models with the demonic special rule must also reroll their invulnerable saves.
Mind Breaker: 25pts - This wargear is used in the shooting phase. A unit with the daemonic special rule or one that is capable of psychic powers within 24" is targeted. It must immediately take a leadership test on 3D6. For every point it fails by, it takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. Vehicles are treated as having LD10
Rod of the Void - A psyker who is hit is forced to take a leadership test. If failed, he takes perils.
As far as fixing some of the already broken units.
I think we should start at the basic weapons, as the Warscythe is just such a no brainer.
Staff of Light- Increase Range to 18' Counts as a regular Close combat weapon. Weapon purchases do not replace the Staff of light, unless you choose too. This will allow Lords/Overlords to wield two weapons.
Void Blade-Rends on a to wound roll of 5 or 6. Specialist Weapon.
Paired Voidblades- Grants Shred.
Gauntlet of Flame- Give the flamer the Torrent profile.
Paired GOF- Overwatch D6+1.
Hyperphase Sword- Free Upgrade.
Paired- grants +2 bonus attacks, instead of the normal +1
Warscythe-Stays the same, but is two handed and replaces all other weapon choices. So you can't have it, and a staff of light, etc etc.
Tesla Weapons- Change the 6 to hit, to only add one additional hit. Grant a special "Overload" rule. When this is used, the Tesla weapon may be fired as a Template, and may be used in overwatch as a flamer. If used this way, the weapon does not benefit from the Tesla special rule during the next shooting phase.
Lychguard-Decrease points cost by 5 points. Giving these guys a 2+ is too much, as T5+RP+2+ is just way to durable. Decreasing their points is a good start, and increasing their WS+1. That would make them excellent at CC. I'd also make the Hyperphase Sword/Shield combo a free upgrade, and have the ability to swap out on a per model basis.
Triarch Praetorians- With the better weapon upgrades, all these guys need is +1 Base attack.
Triarch Stalker- Major points decrease, probably 50 points. All weapon upgrades free.
C'tan- 2+ armor save. Invul stays the same. T stays the same. Will post new powers later.
Flayed Ones-Give them Fear, and the ability to purchase an upgrade for the unit, that grants Shred on the first round of combat. May be taken as troops.
Warriors-Fine as is
Immortals-Fine
Night Scythe- Points increase to 135
Ghost Ark-decreased to 100 points.
CCB-Decreased to 70 points.
Scarabs-Fine as is
Wraiths-+5 PPM.
Tomb Blades- 3+ armor save standard. +2 points increase
Destroyers- Heavy Destroyer upgrade decreased by 10 points. May replace all destroyers with Heavy Destroyers.
Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.
Spyders- Fine as is
Doom Scythe-Fine
Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.
Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.
McNinja wrote: Sasori have you checked my post above out yet? I'm going to add some of your ideas to that post.
Yeah, Help yourself.
C'tan Statline- Same as now, except it has a 2+ save, and it's base cost increased to 190.
May take the following upgrade, in addition to up to 3 powers.
Fragment of a God- Grants Fleet, Rampage, and Rage. 40 points.
Powers:
Void Dragon Powers
Entropic Strike- Grants entropic Strike to both the melee, and ranged weapons of the C'tan 5 points
Infernal Machines- All Canoptek and Vehicle units within 6' of the C'tan gain IWND. 15 points
Nightbringer
Gaze of Death-35 points
Reapers Blade- Successful Invulnerable saves must be rerolled, in close combat against a C'tan with this upgrade. 50 points
Outsider
Aura of Insanity- All enemy models within 12 have -1 LD. In addition, they use the lowest leadership in their unit, instead of the highest. 25 points
Madness- Fired as a shooting attack. If it hits, the Unit is stripped of the following special rules: ATSNKF, Fearless. In addition ,they do not benefit from any rules that would allow them to auto-pass any type of leadership test. 40 points
Deciver-
Grand Illusion- Same
Juxtapose- in any assault phase (Including the enemies) A C'tan wielding this power, may choose to immediately leave combat.It must pass a LD test. If it does so It may then move 2D6. It is allowed to make a charge, with this movement, but not on the same unit it just left combat with. 35 points
The Shaper
Writhing Worldscape- Roll a D6. on a 4+ the entire board counts as dangerous terrain for the enemy, until the following turn. 40 points
Sentient Singularity- Units may fire normal BS at any flyer, that is within 12' of a C'tan with this upgrade. 15 points
The Burning One
Shield of Flames- All models (Friend or Foe) In base contact with a C'tan with this upgrade, take an Automatic Strength 6 AP3 Hit, during each round of close combat. 15 points
Pyreshards- 36 range, Strength 6, AP4, Assault 6, Soul Blaze- 15
McNinja imo some of those traits can't work, seen as 1 forces you to remove Ctan if they are in your list. Making certain units troops may also be a dud point. I'd make Favoured of the Triarch something like; The Triarch have given their support to the Warlord, suggesting that he is fated to succeed. The Warlord may re-roll one dice per phase per turn to represent this. Ancient Hatred could be, well, Hatred, but maybe also PE (only applies to him not his unit) Use for the Conquered; The Warlord has unlocked a small portion of power from a caged Ctan. He has +1WS, BS or I (roll a D3 to decide). However, this power was not taken with consent of the Ctan, and so at the end of each game turn after the first roll a D6. On a 1, the power fades and the Warlord returns to normal.
Also I think Szareh is underpriced, and Flayed Ones should be upgraded to have fear. We also need to assign Traits to the named HQs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sasori I like your thinking on wargear but what about pricing? Surely with all the buffs the weapons will become more expensive. I also like what you've done with Tesla. However, I think the Stalker should be about 100pts not 50 (or have I read that wrong?) and that the Monolith was overpriced for v1.0 so minor buffs and a price rocket worries me
Some of these things are looking pretty good, but just a reminder:
We're not just balancing the codex in a vacuum, we've gotta keep the balance with the other codecies in mind.
Certain units need to be nerfed because they are TOO good as they are, especially when compared to things available to other races. We can't just have the entire book full of nothing but the greatest stuff ever.
So maybe, in addition to, "does changing this make it better?", we need to also ask, "does changing this make it better than something equivalent from another codex?"
If the answer is yes, maybe we should rethink some of the changes.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: McNinja imo some of those traits can't work, seen as 1 forces you to remove Ctan if they are in your list. Making certain units troops may also be a dud point. I'd make Favoured of the Triarch something like; The Triarch have given their support to the Warlord, suggesting that he is fated to succeed. The Warlord may re-roll one dice per phase per turn to represent this.
Ancient Hatred could be, well, Hatred, but maybe also PE (only applies to him not his unit)
Use for the Conquered; The Warlord has unlocked a small portion of power from a caged Ctan. He has +1WS, BS or I (roll a D3 to decide). However, this power was not taken with consent of the Ctan, and so at the end of each game turn after the first roll a D6. On a 1, the power fades and the Warlord returns to normal.
Also I think Szareh is underpriced, and Flayed Ones should be upgraded to have fear. We also need to assign Traits to the named HQs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sasori I like your thinking on wargear but what about pricing? Surely with all the buffs the weapons will become more expensive. I also like what you've done with Tesla. However, I think the Stalker should be about 100pts not 50 (or have I read that wrong?) and that the Monolith was overpriced for v1.0 so minor buffs and a price rocket worries me
The Stalker only took a 50 point decrease, so it would be 110 points
Well, the Phaeron in the post I made fixes the assigning traits problem for those HQs with Phaeron.
RULES Undying Servitude - if HQ present in unit, that unit may reroll failed RP and LoS rolls. Phaeron – The rule no longer grants Relentless. Instead, the Warlord may pick his Warlord trait.
WARGEAR Heat Blaster - lower strength version of the Heat Ray. 12" S7 AP1 Heavy 1 Melta/Template S5 AP4 Heavy 1. Gravity Stabilizers - Grants Relentless. Gauntlet of Flame - R: Template S:4 AP:5 Type: Assault 1, Torrent Mindshackle Scarabs - increase price (20 points). LD test on only 2D6, but reroll successful passes. Staff of Light – This is uses the following profiles: R:18" S:5 AP:3 Type: Assault 3 R:- S:User AP:3 Type: Melee, Two Handed Void Blade-Rends on a to wound roll of 5 or 6. Specialist Weapon. Paired Voidblades- Grants Shred. Gauntlet of Flame- Give the flamer the Torrent profile. Paired GOF- Overwatch D6+1. Hyperphase Sword- Free Upgrade. Paired- grants +2 bonus attacks, instead of the normal +1
WARLORD TRAITS Favored of the Triarch – Triarch Praetorians are scoring. Unyeilding Command – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Stubborn rule. Conqueror of Old – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Crusader rule Eternal Guardians – If the Warlord joins a unit of Lychguard, they gain +1 to any Reanimation Protocol rolls. This does not stack with the bonus from Resurrection Orbs. A Use for the Conquered – The Warlord has found a better use for the C’tan Shards –siphoning their power. Once, at the start of the game, roll a D3. The Warlord adds that much to his WS, I, and A. At the beginning of every game turn, roll a D6; on a roll of 1, the powers fade and cannot be regained. Always a Plan in Motion – You may re-roll any reserve roll. In addition, all models that can outflank gain the Acute Senses rule.
HQ
Spoiler:
Imotekh the Stormlord Price: 225 Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+ Equip: Remove Bloodswarm Nano-Scarabs (why, of all HQ, did HE have them?), Staff of the Destroyer is also an AP1 Power Axe Rules: Same Other: Nemesor Zahndrekh Price: Same Stats: Same Equip: Same Rules: Same Other: Take out Hit and Run on the list of rules he can give to friendly units and replace it with Crusader and add Interceptor to the list. Vargard Obyron Price: same Stats: same Equip: same Rules: same Other: same
Illuminor Szeras Price: Same Stats: Same Equip: Same Rules: Warrior/Immortal upgrades chosen, rather than randomly decided. Other: Same
Orikan the Diviner Price: 170 Stats: same Equip: include Chronometron how is it the greatest Chronomancer in the universe doesn’t carry a Chronometron?) – this may be to prevent insane Empowered shenanigans Rules: same Other: how is it the greatest Chronomancer in the universe doesn’t carry a Chronometron?) – this may be to prevent insane Empowered shenanigans, cost is adjusted to include those shenanigans
Anrakyr the Traveler Price: same Stats: same Equip: same Rules: Mind in the Machine may be used from any open-topped vehicle. Other: Phyrrian Eternals – No longer Counter-Attack and Furious Charge, instead grants Fearless and Crusader.
Trazyn the Infinite Price: Same Stats: Same Equip: Tesseract Labyrinth (... you would think he would already carry one, really) Rules: Same Other: Empathic Obliterator is AP3
Sahtah the Enfleshed (Flayer Overlord) Price: 140 Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Bloodswarm Nano-scarabs (Change so that marked unit is chosen by player, not randomly assigned). Rules: Rending, Shred, Fearless, Fear Other: Flayed Ones he joins Gain the Crusader rule. No Crypteks can be in Royal Court if Sahtah is your Warlord, only Lords (Lords can join units of Flayed Ones).
Executioner Ezandrakh (Destroyer Overlord) Price: 190 Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T6 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+ Equip: Red Harvester (Warscythe with Fleshbane instead of Armorbane). Gaze of Flame, Sempiternal Weave Rules: Preferred Enemy (EVERYTHING!), Hatred (Infantry), Rage Other: Destroyers as troops. Option to include up to two Destroyers as Bodyguards. These are normal destroyers and can choose between two Hyperphase Swords or a Warscythe, but do not take up any FOC slot.
Szarekh, the Silent King (he’s a pacifist Overlord) Price: 200 Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W4 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv 2+ Equip: The Silence (CCW/flame template shooting weapon. models hit (not just wounded) must pass a LD test or suffer from reduced stats (same effect as Chrono-tek’s staff). When Szarekh’s unit is assaulted, assaulting unit must take LD test with +D3 to score. If LD test failed, assault auto fails), Crown of Command (units he joins get +1 to rolls made with Undying Servitude), Rules: Grants “Undying Servitude” to units he joins. “Order Above All Else” (the only Harbingers allowed in Szarekh’s Royal Court are Harbinger of Order. Generic Crypteks and Lords are fine, too). “The Final Word” (when Szarekh loses his final wound and fails to Resurrect, place a large blast template over his Reanimation marker. All models under the template must take a strength test. Models who fail the strength test are removed as a casualty, with no saves of any kind allowed). Other: Praetorians as troops.
Generic Overlord Price: 80 Stats: Same Equip:May be upgraded to Phaeron for 20 points May replace the Staff of Light with up to two of the following: Hyperphase Sword – Free Voidblade – 5 points Or may replace it with a Warscythe for 15 points Rules: Same Other: May be upgraded to Lord of the Triarch for 20 points – in addition to making Triarch Praetorians troops, the Overlord gains a Rod of Convent and his unit type becomes Jump Infantry.
Destroyer Lord Price: 120 Stats: Same Equip: Same Rules: Same Other: Same
ROYAL COURT
Spoiler:
Lord Price: 35 Stats: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Same Rules: Same Other: Same
Generic Cryptek Price: 25 Stats: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Same Rules: Same Other: Same
Harbinger of Destruction Price: Stats: Equip: Rules: Other:
Harbinger of Transmogrification Price: Stats: Equip: Rules: Other:
Harbinger of the Storm Price: Stats: Equip: Rules: Other:
Harbinger of Eternity Price: Stats: Equip: Staff should be shooting weapon as well as CCW . Rules: Other:
Harbinger of Despair Price: Stats: Equip: Rules: Other:
Harbinger of Order Price: +15 to Cryptek Stats: See Cryptek Equip: Gloom Prism. Rod of Absolution (shooting weapon with Exile Ray flame template). Beacon of Precision (units aiming to deep strike within 6” of Order-tek do not scatter). Rules: None Other: None
TRANSPORT
Spoiler:
Catacomb Command Barge Price: 75 Stats: Same Equip: Same Rules: Same Other: Same
Ghost Ark Price: Decrease (100 points) Stats: Increase carrying capacity to 12. Equip: Remove Repair Barge ability as standard. Include Repair Barge as purchasable equipment upgrade (would then re-restrict occupants to only Warriors and HQ). Rules:N/A Other: Remove “Warriors & HQ only” occupant restriction (allowing other units to take it would give ‘Crons access to a secondary transport option, thus reducing reliance on Nightscythes. Because it is option topped, that would also mean models can assault from it, meaning Lychguard might become useful)
Night Scythe Price: 125 points Stats: Same Equip: Same Rules: Same – Still the best transport in the game. No reason to add arbitrary restrictions. Other: Same
TROOPS
Spoiler:
No changes needed for Warriors or Immortals
Flayed Ones Price: 15 points Stats: Same Equip: None Rules: Fear, Shred, Fearless, Infiltrate, Reanimation Protocols, Blood Strike – Flayed Ones have the Deep Strike rule and may assault the same turn they come in from Reserves, but it is a disordered charge. Other: Same
ELITES
Spoiler:
Deathmarks Price: N/A Stats: N/A Equip: N/A Rules: Ethereal Interception to grant Interceptor rule as well (duh). Other: N/A
Lychguard Price: 45 Stats: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Add the following to the list of upgrades May replace Warscythe with up to two of the following. The unit may take any combination: - Hyperphase Sword - Free - Hyperphase Axe (Power Axe) - Free - Dispersion Shield – 10 points - May take Sempiternal Weave for 10 points Rules: Undying Servitude, Unswerving Loyalty – If the Warlord is in a unit of Lychguard, they automatically pass Look Out Sir! rolls; and Killing Blow - A Lychguard can opt to make a single attack instead of its normal attacks. If it does so, the attack also has the Instant Death rule. Other: Able to mix and match wargear instead of being restricted to entire unit being equipped with exact same weapons. Include ability to equip two CCWs.
Triarch Praetorians Price: Same Stats: WS5 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Rod of covenant loses Unwieldy Rules: Interdiction - Triarch Praetorians lie in wait, hovering above a battle until the time is right. Triarch Praetorians always start the game in reserve, unless the Praetorians are part of the Warlord's unit. They may come in from Reserves on turn one. Other: They didn't sleep during the eons, earning them WS5, and their cost justifies removing unwieldy and adding another attack.
C'tan Shards Price: 160 points Stats: Same Equip: Change to powers are as follows. A C’tan Shard must pick at least one power and may have up to three: - Entropic Touch – Close combat attacks have the Rending and Entropic Touch rules. - Gaze of Death – Same - Grand Illusion – Same - Lord of Fire – Increase range to 18” - Moulder of Worlds – Complete change – The C’tan reshapes the world as it sees fit, lowering hills and moving reality to disorient its foes. Once per game, the C’tan may roll a D3. It may then move that many pieces of terrain up to 3” in any direction. If any models are in the way, move them; they are not killed, simply shaken as they earth moves under their feet. - Pyreshards – Uses the following profile: R:18” S:4 AP:- Type: Assault 10 - Sentient Singularity – Any model that attempts to Deep Strike within 6” of the C’tan automatically mishaps. Any enemy vehicle that attempts to move at all within 6” of the C’tan takes a Dangerous Terrain test. Any enemy non-vehicle models that attempt to move within 6” of the C’tan must take a Toughness test or be removed from play with no armor saves allowed. - Swarm of Spirit Dust – The C’tan gains Assault and Defensive Grenades as well as the Shrouded rule. At the beginning of each Fight sub-phase, each unit in combat with the C’tan Shard must take a Blind test. - Time’s Arrow – Same - Transdimensional Thunderbolt – R:24” S:7 AP:- Type: Assault 4, Tesla, Arc - Eternal Form – 50 points - The C’tan gains a 2+ Armor save and 3+ Invulnerable save. - Phaseblade – 25 points – This is a close combat weapon that uses the following profile: R:- S:User AP:1 Type: Melee, Instant Death. Any successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by this weapon must be re-rolled. C'tan Statline- Same as now, except it has a 2+ save, and it's base cost increased to 190.
Fragment of a God- Grants Fleet, Rampage, and Rage. 40 points.
Powers: Void Dragon Powers Entropic Strike- Grants entropic Strike to both the melee, and ranged weapons of the C'tan 5 points Infernal Machines- All Canoptek and Vehicle units within 6' of the C'tan gain IWND. 15 points
Nightbringer Gaze of Death-35 points Reapers Blade- Successful Invulnerable saves must be rerolled, in close combat against a C'tan with this upgrade. 50 points
Outsider Aura of Insanity- All enemy models within 12 have -1 LD. In addition, they use the lowest leadership in their unit, instead of the highest. 25 points Madness- Fired as a shooting attack. If it hits, the Unit is stripped of the following special rules: ATSNKF, Fearless. In addition ,they do not benefit from any rules that would allow them to auto-pass any type of leadership test. 40 points
Deciver- Grand Illusion- Same Juxtapose- in any assault phase (Including the enemies) A C'tan wielding this power, may choose to immediately leave combat.It must pass a LD test. If it does so It may then move 2D6. It is allowed to make a charge, with this movement, but not on the same unit it just left combat with. 35 points
The Shaper Writhing Worldscape- Roll a D6. on a 4+ the entire board counts as dangerous terrain for the enemy, until the following turn. 40 points Sentient Singularity- Units may fire normal BS at any flyer, that is within 12' of a C'tan with this upgrade. 15 points
The Burning One Shield of Flames- All models (Friend or Foe) In base contact with a C'tan with this upgrade, take an Automatic Strength 6 AP3 Hit, during each round of close combat. 15 points Pyreshards- 36 range, Strength 6, AP4, Assault 6, Soul Blaze- 15
Endless Swarm Swarm of Spirit Dust- Grants defensive, offensive grenades. Stealth, and shrouding. 15 points Devouring Swarm- Strength 6 AP2 Torrent-35 points. Rules: Poisoned weapons or weapons that wound on a flat D6 roll (such as snipers) only wound on a 6. Other: May choose one of the following: Living Adamantine – C’tan Shard becomes S8, T8, and I3 Living Quicksilver – C’tan Shard becomes T6 and I5 and becomes a Jump Monstrous Creature
Triarch Stalker Price: 140 Stats: Same Equip: - Hyperphase Blades – These are two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons. - Heat Ray is twin-linked. - Particle Shredder is twin-linked - All weapon options are free upgrades. Rules: Same Other: Remove the rider on the top of physical model and replace with guns, instead of having them underneath.
Tomb Blades Price: N/A Stats: N/A Equip: One Tomb Blade may take a Heat Blaster for 10 points Up to three Tomb Blades may take a Transdimensional Beamer for 10 points Rules: N/A Other: N/A
Destroyers Price: Decrease (35pts) Stats: Destroyer is the same Heavy Destroyer: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+ Equip: Add the following to the Option list: A Destroyer may replace its Gauss Cannon with Tesla Cannon – Free Hyperphase Sword – Free Warscythe – 10 points OR Heavy Destroyer upgrade is 10 points. Any Heavy Destroyer may take one of the following: Two Hyperphase Swords – 5 points Heavy Gauss cannon – 10 points Warscythe – 10 points Tesla Destructor – 15 points Gravity Stabilizers – 10 points
Any combination of the above option may be used in a single unit. A unit may have both Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers in it. Rules: N/A Other: N/A
HEAVY SUPPORT
Spoiler:
Annihilation Barge Price: N/A (you’ll see why no decrease in a second) Stats: N/A Equip: One Twin-linked Gauss Cannon on top, one Gauss Cannon underneath. The Annihilation Barge may: Swap the Twin-linked Gauss Cannon for a Twin-linked Tesla Cannon for free. OR Replace the Twin-linked Gauss Cannon with either a twin-linked Tesla Destructor, Twin-linked Particle Shredder, or Twin-linked Heavy Gauss Cannon for +20 points.
The Gauss Cannon underneath may be swapped with a Tesla Cannon for free. Rules: N/A Other: N/A
Doomsday Ark Price: 160 Stats: N/A Equip: A Shadowloom as purchased for 10 points Rules: The Doomsday Ark uses the following profiles. The first profile is used if the Ark moved, the second is used if the Ark did not move. : R:48” S:9 AP:1 Type: Heavy 1, Blast R:72” S:10 AP:1 Type: Ordnance 1, Large Blast
Monolith Price: Decrease (180 points) Stats: N/A Equip: N/A Rules: Massive – The Monolith never rolls on the mishap table. Instead, if the Monolith scatters onto an enemy unit or terrain, reduce the scatter by the shortest amount possible to prevent it from doing so. Other: N/A
McNinja wrote: The Stalker only took a 50 point decrease, so it would be 110 points
Well, the Phaeron in the post I made fixes the assigning traits problem for those HQs with Phaeron.
Stalker would be 100pts if its a 50pt drop And what about characters like Szeras, Orikan, Obyron? They aren't Phaerons so they need a trait, as do your FOOL and the Destroyer OL, and Szareh cos he's kind of a high Phaeron/Triarch Lord.
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skoffs wrote: Some of these things are looking pretty good, but just a reminder:
We're not just balancing the codex in a vacuum, we've gotta keep the balance with the other codecies in mind.
Certain units need to be nerfed because they are TOO good as they are, especially when compared to things available to other races. We can't just have the entire book full of nothing but the greatest stuff ever.
So maybe, in addition to, "does changing this make it better?", we need to also ask, "does changing this make it better than something equivalent from another codex?"
If the answer is yes, maybe we should rethink some of the changes.
Thanks skoffs but you're right. Do you have any particular things in mind that need a tone down from the thread?
McNinja wrote: The Stalker only took a 50 point decrease, so it would be 110 points
Well, the Phaeron in the post I made fixes the assigning traits problem for those HQs with Phaeron.
Stalker would be 100pts if its a 50pt drop And what about characters like Szeras, Orikan, Obyron? They aren't Phaerons so they need a trait, as do your FOOL and the Destroyer OL, and Szareh cos he's kind of a high Phaeron/Triarch Lord.
They do... I would assume that a normal Overlord would either take Phaeron and pick it or roll. Szareh's profile needs Phaeron added to it.
I reckon Zahndrekh should have 'Always a Plan in Motion', Szeras 'A Use for the Conquered', Anrakyr 'Conqueror of Old', Orikan 'Plan in Motion', Ezandrakh (Destroyer) 'Conqueror' or 'Unyielding Command' same with Obyron, and Sahtah (FOOL) either 'unyielding command' or 'Ancient Hatred'. Still think Favoured of the Triarch is iffy cos it half forces Pratorians on those who don't want a Phaeron.
Quick question: will this thread also have an entire new profile sheet for every unit, like what I have with my Tyranid thread, or will the form Skoffs made suffice?
RULES
Undying Servitude - if HQ present in unit, that unit may reroll failed RP and LoS rolls. Reroll for LoS seems to fit perfectly, nice simple but effective rule that would fit their fluff... but on further consideration, the RP reroll seems a bit OP, as someone pointed out before.
Phaeron – The rule no longer grants Relentless. Instead, the Warlord may pick his Warlord trait. This would be WAY too good. Perhaps, instead, this is where the "can reroll RP" rule should go (would fit well with the fluff, too. "Only the most powerful Overlords would be worthy of this gift of true eternal life", etc.)
WARGEAR
Heat Blaster - lower strength version of the Heat Ray. 12" S7 AP1 Heavy 1 Melta/Template S5 AP4 Heavy 1. seems like AP1 might make it too good. We want it to threaten vehicles, not be a guaranteed tank killer
Gravity Stabilizers - Grants Relentless. actually, the only thing this seems like it would benefit would be Destroyers, so maybe just give it exclusively to them as an upgrade option instead of an army wide wargear option
Gauntlet of Flame - R: Template S:4 AP:5 Type: Assault 1, Torrent Okay
Mindshackle Scarabs - increase price (20 points). LD test on only 2D6, but reroll successful passes. I think this version works pretty well, but may need additional input from other non-necron players to see if they would consider it balanced
Staff of Light – This is uses the following profiles:
R:18" S:5 AP:3 Type: Assault 3
R:- S:User AP:3 Type: Melee, Two Handed Yep
Void Blade-Rends on a to wound roll of 5 or 6. Specialist Weapon. cool!
Paired Voidblades- Grants Shred. Super cool! (suddenly Praetorians might be worth considering)
Gauntlet of Flame- Give the flamer the Torrent profile. on here twice
Paired GOF- Overwatch D6+1. I assume you meant "D3+1"?
Hyperphase Sword- Free Upgrade. yup
Paired- grants +2 bonus attacks, instead of the normal +1 assuming this won't be free, correct?
WARLORD TRAITS
Favored of the Triarch – Triarch Praetorians are scoring. nah, too specific/useless without Praets. We shoukd just give that ability to the HQ instead, and come up with something else for this rule
Unyeilding Command – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Stubborn rule. good
Conqueror of Old – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Crusader rule also good
Ancient Hatred – The Warlord and his ... unit gain Hatred?
A Use for the Conquered – The Warlord has found a better use for the C’tan Shards –siphoning their power. Once, at the start of the game, roll a D3. The Warlord adds that much to his WS, I, and A. At the beginning of every game turn, roll a D6; on a roll of 1, the powers fade and cannot be regained. interesting. could work.
Always a Plan in Motion – You may re-roll any reserve roll. In addition, all models that can outflank gain the Acute Senses rule. looks sweet. actually, maybe it might be too good to be able to reroll EVERY reserve roll (if you could, the Comms Relay would be useless). maybe just "can reroll one reserve roll per turn"?
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McNinja wrote: Quick question: will this thread also have an entire new profile sheet for every unit, like what I have with my Tyranid thread, or will the form Skoffs made suffice?
Nah, the form I made was just for initial evaluations (just to address what might need to be changed).
Once everything's been sorted out, we're probably going to need a legit write up/entire new profile sheet for each unit.
Ok so we now need a new trait, to assign traits to all named characters, to reduce the AP of the Heat Blaster (AP3? or 2?) and maybe tweak MSS depending on other people's views. In terms of the new WT.... I suggested something earlier for Favoured of the Triarch (1 re-roll per phase to represent the fact that he is fated by the Triarch for success) but how about this;
Flayer Infection; The Warlord has begun to show signs of succumbing to the Flayer Virus, and has modified his wargear to spill as much blood in combat. His cc attacks have the Fleshbane rule
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Ok so we now need a new trait, I like what you posted below
to assign traits to all named characters, we'll get to that
to reduce the AP of the Heat Blaster (AP3? or 2?) well, it still has to THREATEN vehicles, so AP3 might be too high. AP2 should be fine, shouldn't it?
and maybe tweak MSS depending on other people's views. hopefully a non-necron player can chime in
In terms of the new WT.... I suggested something earlier for Favoured of the Triarch (1 re-roll per phase to represent the fact that he is fated by the Triarch for success) oh yeah, that one. that sounds pretty decent.
but how about this;
Flayer Infection; The Warlord has begun to show signs of succumbing to the Flayer Virus, and has modified his wargear to spill as much blood in combat. His cc attacks have the Fleshbane rule oooooh, very nice! super fluffy, yet still viably sound
I meant we'll get to the discussing of those things, but if anyone else wants to jump in and start the discussion, by all means!
(it's 1am, here, so I'm out. got work in the morning).
skoffs wrote: Okay, let's discuss this one section at a time.
RULES
Undying Servitude - if HQ present in unit, that unit may reroll failed RP and LoS rolls. Reroll for LoS seems to fit perfectly, nice simple but effective rule that would fit their fluff... but on further consideration, the RP reroll seems a bit OP, as someone pointed out before. I agree.
Phaeron – The rule no longer grants Relentless. Instead, the Warlord may pick his Warlord trait. This would be WAY too good. Perhaps, instead, this is where the "can reroll RP" rule should go (would fit well with the fluff, too. "Only the most powerful Overlords would be worthy of this gift of true eternal life", etc.) Well, it is a 20 point upgrade, and considering that I pick my warlord traits anyway (because really, who actually likes the random traits?), its not bad for me. Making the Warlord Traits themselves balanced would be the only way to prevent this from being OP. The CSM codex warlord traits are all pretty much garbage except for 1, which is the infiltrate one, and that's why Huron is generally the Warlord. If you don't want to pay the 20 points, they can roll. I would imagine that the necrons, after not changing for 60 million years, would know what they're doing.
WARGEAR
Heat Blaster - lower strength version of the Heat Ray. 12" S7 AP1 Heavy 1 Melta/Template S5 AP4 Heavy 1. seems like AP1 might make it too good. We want it to threaten vehicles, not be a guaranteed tank killerI always figured the heat Ray to be a better Multi-melta, so I thought of this as more like a meltagun.
Gravity Stabilizers - Grants Relentless. actually, the only thing this seems like it would benefit would be Destroyers, so maybe just give it exclusively to them as an upgrade option instead of an army wide wargear option True.
Gauntlet of Flame - R: Template S:4 AP:5 Type: Assault 1, Torrent Okay
Mindshackle Scarabs - increase price (20 points). LD test on only 2D6, but reroll successful passes. I think this version works pretty well, but may need additional input from other non-necron players to see if they would consider it balanced
Staff of Light – This is uses the following profiles:
R:18" S:5 AP:3 Type: Assault 3
R:- S:User AP:3 Type: Melee, Two Handed Yep
Void Blade-Rends on a to wound roll of 5 or 6. Specialist Weapon. cool!
Paired Voidblades- Grants Shred. Super cool! (suddenly Praetorians might be worth considering)Agreed. Also, WS5.
Gauntlet of Flame- Give the flamer the Torrent profile. on here twice
Paired GOF- Overwatch D6+1. I assume you meant "D3+1"? I think a different bonus might be in order. Perhaps some sort of AP bonus? When an undead robots fists become green fire, I would imagine they become a bit more powerful.
Hyperphase Sword- Free Upgrade. yup
Paired- grants +2 bonus attacks, instead of the normal +1 assuming this won't be free, correct?I would think +10 points?
WARLORD TRAITS
Favored of the Triarch – Triarch Praetorians are scoring. nah, too specific/useless without Praets. We shoukd just give that ability to the HQ instead, and come up with something else for this rule This originally went hand in hand with Phaeron, though the Lord of the Triarch option for Overlords would technically negate this, so I'm not sure what I was thinking.
Unyeilding Command – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Stubborn rule. good
Conqueror of Old – The Warlord and any unit within 12” gains the Crusader rule also good
Ancient Hatred – The Warlord and his ... unit gain Hatred?Sorry, wasn't able to think of anything but yes. Hatred.
A Use for the Conquered – The Warlord has found a better use for the C’tan Shards –siphoning their power. Once, at the start of the game, roll a D3. The Warlord adds that much to his WS, I, and A. At the beginning of every game turn, roll a D6; on a roll of 1, the powers fade and cannot be regained. interesting. could work. I also think this could be added to depending on how many C'tan you have on the board?
Always a Plan in Motion – You may re-roll any reserve roll. In addition, all models that can outflank gain the Acute Senses rule. looks sweet. actually, maybe it might be too good to be able to reroll EVERY reserve roll (if you could, the Comms Relay would be useless). maybe just "can reroll one reserve roll per turn"?
I don't know of many people who take the Comms Relay in the first place.
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McNinja wrote: Quick question: will this thread also have an entire new profile sheet for every unit, like what I have with my Tyranid thread, or will the form Skoffs made suffice?
Nah, the form I made was just for initial evaluations (just to address what might need to be changed).
Once everything's been sorted out, we're probably going to need a legit write up/entire new profile sheet for each unit.
Sweet. I'm actually about to write all of this down in a notebook so I can start to use it in games!
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Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Ok so we now need a new trait, to assign traits to all named characters, to reduce the AP of the Heat Blaster (AP3? or 2?) and maybe tweak MSS depending on other people's views. In terms of the new WT.... I suggested something earlier for Favoured of the Triarch (1 re-roll per phase to represent the fact that he is fated by the Triarch for success) but how about this;
Flayer Infection; The Warlord has begun to show signs of succumbing to the Flayer Virus, and has modified his wargear to spill as much blood in combat. His cc attacks have the Fleshbane rule
So much win. The Flayer one is definitely going in.
Thanks on the WT, but I'm with skoffs on Phaeron, because a) Picking traits is a tad OP, b) you aren't supposed to pick whether you like it or not, and c) if we put the Flayer one in I somehow doubt Imotekh is succumbing to the Flayer virus even if he is now kick-ass melee, and it makes warscythes double the troube. Re-rolling RP is more fluffy imho, and less OP. I also think AP2 is better for the blaster then its more like a plasma than a melta, which crons lack.
The other things are the GofF, which I think D3+1 AP4 instead of 5, Plan in Motion Trait, maybe D3-1 rolls to meet in the middle, and the Ctan Power Trait shouldn't get boosted he's only nicked it off one Ctan!
Also, the Tachyon Arrow sucks. Hows about Range 60" S6 AP1 Assault 1 Armorbane? For 30 points on only a couple models, I tihnk that's fine. Considering the fluff for the weapon has it as basically a super-powered railgun, I figured that's be a good way to take it.
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Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Thanks on the WT, but I'm with skoffs on Phaeron, because a) Picking traits is a tad OP, b) you aren't supposed to pick whether you like it or not, and c) if we put the Flayer one in I somehow doubt Imotekh is succumbing to the Flayer virus even if he is now kick-ass melee, and it makes warscythes double the troube. Re-rolling RP is more fluffy imho, and less OP. I also think AP2 is better for the blaster then its more like a plasma than a melta, which crons lack.
The other things are the GofF, which I think D3+1 AP4 instead of 5, Plan in Motion Trait, maybe D3-1 rolls to meet in the middle, and the Ctan Power Trait shouldn't get boosted he's only nicked it off one Ctan!
Yeah, I'm smelling what you're cooking. I'm writing some stuff up to print out, and I threw out the pick WT and put in the re-roll RP. For 20 points, I like it.
AP2 is fine with me.
For the Gauntlet, what about two giving it Torrent and in cc making successful saves be re-rolled? 5 points for one 15 for two. S5 AP4 or S4 AP4?
AaPiM trait, maybe just one reserve re-roll per turn?
C'tan trait, it's not just one, but many. The plural of Shards and their indicates that many are being drained of power.
Staff of Light – This is uses the following profiles:
R:18" S:5 AP:3 Type: Assault 3
R:- S:User AP:3 Type: Melee, Two Handed Yep
I think the Staff of Light should just be a regular one handed CC weapon, with no AP. It does too much as a base weapon, with AP3.
Void Blade-Rends on a to wound roll of 5 or 6. Specialist Weapon. cool!
Glad you like it, I think the Void blades needed a bit of a buff.
Paired Voidblades- Grants Shred. Super cool! (suddenly Praetorians might be worth considering)Agreed. Also, WS5.
Yeah, lots of rending attacks
Paired GOF- Overwatch D6+1. I assume you meant "D3+1"? I think a different bonus might be in order. Perhaps some sort of AP bonus? When an undead robots fists become green fire, I would imagine they become a bit more powerful.
Well, it's already a powerful flamer on it's own, and rerolls failed to hit and wounds. This item is more of an Anti-horde measure. D6+1 Flamer hits will make people think twice, and it adds +1 attack for paired weapons.
Hyperphase Sword- Free Upgrade. yup
Paired- grants +2 bonus attacks, instead of the normal +1 assuming this won't be free, correct?I would think +10 points?
I would say +5 points to replace the staff of light with it, since you'd be giving up your shooting.
My Idea for points costs for Weapons would be like this:
Base, staff of light
The Overlord/Lord may purchase an additonal close combat weapon from the following list
-Hyperphase Sword-Free
-GOF-5 Points
-Voidblade-10
May Replace all Close Combat weapons, with a Warscythe- 25
The Overlord may also replace his Staff of light with the following
-Hyperphase Sword-5
GOF- 5
Voidblade-5
I like the costing Sasori, fits well. So... that's wargear and Warlords just about done and dusted methinks. Where next? We can fine-tune the fluff, we could edit Elites, tweak Troops and Transports, fiddle with FA or haggle over HS (see what I did there.... No? Ah well made me laugh).
Seriously though what's next on the to-do list do we think?
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I like the costing Sasori, fits well. So... that's wargear and Warlords just about done and dusted methinks. Where next? We can fine-tune the fluff, we could edit Elites, tweak Troops and Transports, fiddle with FA or haggle over HS (see what I did there.... No? Ah well made me laugh).
Seriously though what's next on the to-do list do we think?
I see what you did there
Troops are fine, I think.
Elites it is. Let us begin the editing.
Lychguard. WS5. Ability to take two hyperphase swords.
Outfight an OL? No chance. 2 swords.... Maybe, but I'd rather have axe and shield as a second combo, for free of course.
Stalker, price drop is fine, start with a heat blaster that can become a ray
Ctan I don't have a clue.
FO are in Troops
TP need another attack, the voidblade buff does the rest
Deathmarks get Interceptor if they intercept (TM skoffs I think) and maybe AP4 weapons
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Outfight an OL? No chance. 2 swords.... Maybe, but I'd rather have axe and shield as a second combo, for free of course.
Stalker, price drop is fine, start with a heat blaster that can become a ray
Ctan I don't have a clue.
FO are in Troops
TP need another attack, the voidblade buff does the rest
Deathmarks get Interceptor if they intercept (TM skoffs I think) and maybe AP4 weapons
Well, I posted my thoughts on the C"tan, with new powers. Really, they just need a better base save. There is no reason they shoulden't have at the very least a 3+, but for it's price a 2+ is very fair.
Stalker should still start with it's Heatray. You could give it the ability to purchase "Smash" which would make it AP2 in CC, and could trample over other vehicles in CC.
I kinda didn't read those at the time sorry, my bad. Some of them are good but I don't play Ctan or MCs so I dunno. The Stalker Smash option is valid, though it'll have to cost a bit. Maybe;
Stalker 100pts
Heat Ray and Relay
MTC, LM and QS
may replace ray with;
HGC +10pts
Particle Shredder +10pts
may take;
Adamantium Forelegs (someone pleeaase suggest a better name); thees allow the Triarch Stalker to rear up and penetrate the hull of even the toughest armour. The Triarch Stalker has the Smash Special Rule +30pts?
I was thinking, maybe the Necrons could have 7 warlord traits, with Phaerons and some Special Characters having access to the seventh.
So maybe something like:
Will of the Undead: With the power of an entire dynasty behind him, the Warlord's will can not be disobeyed The Warlord and all units within 12" have the ATSKNF (Fearless?) special rule.
Phaeron: This model, if he is your warlord, may re-roll the a result on the Warlord Traits Table or choose the 7th option, they can not do both!
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I kinda didn't read those at the time sorry, my bad. Some of them are good but I don't play Ctan or MCs so I dunno. The Stalker Smash option is valid, though it'll have to cost a bit. Maybe;
Stalker 100pts
Heat Ray and Relay
MTC, LM and QS
may replace ray with;
HGC +10pts
Particle Shredder +10pts
may take;
Adamantium Forelegs (someone pleeaase suggest a better name); thees allow the Triarch Stalker to rear up and penetrate the hull of even the toughest armour. The Triarch Stalker has the Smash Special Rule +30pts?
Smash for 30 points? Nope. 20 maybe. Also Maybe a twin-linked Particle Shredder and two Heavy Gauss Cannons?
The Triarch Stalker may have the Siege Walker upgrade for +20 points.
Sounds good to me.
Agreed thanks.
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Matt.Kingsley wrote: I was thinking, maybe the Necrons could have 7 warlord traits, with Phaerons and some Special Characters having access to the seventh.
So maybe something like:
Will of the Undead: With the power of an entire dynasty behind him, the Warlord's will can not be disobeyed The Warlord and all units within 12" have the ATSKNF (Fearless?) special rule.
Phaeron: This model, if he is your warlord, may re-roll the a result on the Warlord Traits Table or choose the 7th option, they can not do both!
Hmmm.......... It's an interesting idea, very 'fluffy', but no other dex has 7 traits and seen as we're out to balance I don't know. If it was implemented it would have to be worth taking if you want people to buy Phaeron, so Relentless could go in there as well, and possibly another USR
Well, seeming you have to pay points to get it, I think it's balanced (in that regard).
Adding relentless sounds good! Unsure what other USR would be good, though (if any).
Also, in regrds to skoffs' Necrons Codex 2.0 doc, I feel that Transdimensional Beamers as a Tomb Blade weapon upgrade is unfluffy, it would be more on spiders (and still balanced, imo)
Despite the fact that we're working on Elites at the moment, I've gotta say something about the transport section before I forget.
Nightscythes:
- need to be relegated to non-troop units only (will prevent ridiculous amounts of spam, as well as the TFG tactic of waiting until turn 5 to drop MSU Warriors on objectives to win the game).
- Tesla Destructor needs to be a purchasable upgrade, not a standard weapon.
I already touch on these points a bit already, as well as the Ghost Ark, but we'll come back to the transport section later.
skoffs wrote: Despite the fact that we're working on Elites at the moment, I've gotta say something about the transport section before I forget.
Nightscythes:
- need to be relegated to non-troop units only (will prevent ridiculous amounts of spam, as well as the TFG tactic of waiting until turn 5 to drop MSU Warriors on objectives to win the game).
- Tesla Destructor needs to be a purchasable upgrade, not a standard weapon.
I already touch on these points a bit already, as well as the Ghost Ark, but we'll come back to the transport section later.
I'm not sure about that. The fluff doesn't really match that; perhaps a rule that the Night Scythe must come on the field before turn 5, or that Night Scythes are a 0-2 option for the army? Either that or make the Ghost Ark more viable a competitor to the Night Scythe.
skoffs wrote: Despite the fact that we're working on Elites at the moment, I've gotta say something about the transport section before I forget.
Nightscythes:
- need to be relegated to non-troop units only (will prevent ridiculous amounts of spam, as well as the TFG tactic of waiting until turn 5 to drop MSU Warriors on objectives to win the game).
- Tesla Destructor needs to be a purchasable upgrade, not a standard weapon.
I already touch on these points a bit already, as well as the Ghost Ark, but we'll come back to the transport section later.
There is no reason for any of that.
A points increase of 25 points (25%) Will make a massive difference. There is really no need for the extremely heavy nerfing you're suggesting.
I'll agree with kingsley on the trait whatsit when you put it that way, especially seen as Phaeron also re-rolls RP. The NS argument is a long one, we could easily be here all day with it. I agree on making the Destructor an upgrade, but don't reserves HAVE to come on Turn 4 now? So the MSU warriors trick is slightly harder to do if it is. We can't take away the transport options otherwise Immortals have no transport and Warriors become more 1-dimensional (stomp up with GA's fixing them)
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I'll agree with kingsley on the trait whatsit when you put it that way, especially seen as Phaeron also re-rolls RP. The NS argument is a long one, we could easily be here all day with it. I agree on making the Destructor an upgrade, but don't reserves HAVE to come on Turn 4 now? So the MSU warriors trick is slightly harder to do if it is. We can't take away the transport options otherwise Immortals have no transport and Warriors become more 1-dimensional (stomp up with GA's fixing them)
To fix up the Ghost Ark, there are a few options that I like:
- Making from armor AV12 (AV14 with QS).
- Removing the Repair Barge rule and the restriction for only HQ and Warriors, leaving Repair Barge an upgrade that changes it to only transport HQ and Warriors.
- Lowering the cost to 100.
If you're gonna do that McNinja the upgrade for AV12 will likely be about 15 pts and the Repair one 10 seen as flexibility is lost in terms of transport.
Sasori even at 125 the NS is cheaper than a Stormtalon (and kicks its SM butt) with a transport capacity unrivalled (even a Stormraven only has 12-and a Dread but it's only 13 models) and th 2nd most powerful flyer gun besides the lascannon. AND if it is destroyed the unit isn't. It needs weakening, even if it is only the gun getting downgraded.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: If you're gonna do that McNinja the upgrade for AV12 will likely be about 15 pts and the Repair one 10 seen as flexibility is lost in terms of transport.
Sasori even at 125 the NS is cheaper than a Stormtalon (and kicks its SM butt) with a transport capacity unrivalled (even a Stormraven only has 12-and a Dread but it's only 13 models) and th 2nd most powerful flyer gun besides the lascannon. AND if it is destroyed the unit isn't. It needs weakening, even if it is only the gun getting downgraded.
This is what I have for both transports, see what you think:
Ghost Ark
115 points
...................BS..FA..SA...RA
Ghost Ark.....4...12..11...11
Composition: 1 Ghost Ark
Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped, Skimmer)
Transport Capacity: 12
Aeonic Artifacts: Quantum Shielding, two Gauss Flayer Arrays
Special Rules: Living Metal
Options:
A Ghost Ark may become a Repair Barge. If it does so, it may only transport HQ models and Warriors.
Night Scythe
130 points
........................BS..FA..SA...RA
Night Scythe.....4...11..11...11
Composition: 1 Night Scythe
Unit Type: Vehicle (Flyer)
Transport Capacity: 15
Aeonic Artifacts: Twin-linked Tesla Cannon
Special Rules: Living Metal, Supersonic
Options:
A Night Scythe may replace the twin-linked Tesla Cannon with one of the following:
-Twin-linked Gauss Cannon – free
-Twin-linked Heavy Gauss Cannon – 10 points
-Twin-linked Tesla Destructor -15 points
With those options, I think I'd drop the cost of Nightscythe to 110. With TL Tesla Cannon, I feel that making it cost as much as a Vendetta is a bit OTT
King Pariah wrote: With those options, I think I'd drop the cost of Nightscythe to 110. With TL Tesla Cannon, I feel that making it cost as much as a Vendetta is a bit OTT
Agreed, its a good balance well.... HQ just about done, Elites and Transports the same. Troops.... We've covered FO and I think Warriors and Immortals are fine. So that's FA and HS, plus fixing up little things in HQ like who has what trait and if the named guys have boosts etcetcetc. We're doing well! keep it up guys and we'll have a brilliant dex
Yep, like I said in the Google doc, turning the Ghost Ark into a transport option that any infantry can take will reduce dependency on Nightscythes (it being an open topped transport would make it an assault vehicle that the Lychguard would love to their hands on).
However, making it AV 12 would be pushing it. That would give us (effectively) two AV 14 vehicles. That's not going to fly, as far as inter-codex balance goes.
With the Ghost Ark available to other infantry units, making the Nightscythe more of an "elite" transport option, rather than a mass transit delivery system like it is now, would work out pretty well. Like was mentioned, even with a price increase, people are still going to try to spam the best transport in the game. Limiting their ability to do so would the fairest way to balance it, without nerfing its movement/delivery rules.
Heavy Gauss cannons probably don't need to go on it, though. With the other units in the codex that are going to be able to carry them (Destroyers, Stalker, Annihilation Barge), we should be fine (we don't want to saturate the army with long range weaponry. that's not the role of our army. we're midfield kings, after all).
King Pariah wrote: With those options, I think I'd drop the cost of Nightscythe to 110. With TL Tesla Cannon, I feel that making it cost as much as a Vendetta is a bit OTT
The Nightscythe needs to be stock standard with Tesla Destructors, as that's the only way the kit can be built.
So, adjusting the price is the most prudent thing to do.
I still think 125 would be a fair start. You don't want to overnerf something. More Armies are getting AA, and it has been shown to have a pretty big effect. Tesla Destructors are a great weapon, but they aren't the best, second, or even third best weapons that are flyers. I'd say 135 at most, but that is quite a hefty increase.
King Pariah wrote: With those options, I think I'd drop the cost of Nightscythe to 110. With TL Tesla Cannon, I feel that making it cost as much as a Vendetta is a bit OTT
The Nightscythe needs to be stock standard with Tesla Destructors, as that's the only way the kit can be built.
So, adjusting the price is the most prudent thing to do.
I still think 125 would be a fair start. You don't want to overnerf something. More Armies are getting AA, and it has been shown to have a pretty big effect. Tesla Destructors are a great weapon, but they aren't the best, second, or even third best weapons that are flyers. I'd say 135 at most, but that is quite a hefty increase.
I'm actually for keeping the Destructors, just seems like everyone else is rooting for Tesla Cannons (which I don't entirely blame them for with all the rage there is over Scythe Spam).
Anyway, with 110 base. They still end up 125 with the Destructors upgrade. Compromise.
King Pariah wrote: With those options, I think I'd drop the cost of Nightscythe to 110. With TL Tesla Cannon, I feel that making it cost as much as a Vendetta is a bit OTT
The Nightscythe needs to be stock standard with Tesla Destructors, as that's the only way the kit can be built.
So, adjusting the price is the most prudent thing to do.
I still think 125 would be a fair start. You don't want to overnerf something. More Armies are getting AA, and it has been shown to have a pretty big effect. Tesla Destructors are a great weapon, but they aren't the best, second, or even third best weapons that are flyers. I'd say 135 at most, but that is quite a hefty increase.
I'm actually for keeping the Destructors, just seems like everyone else is rooting for Tesla Cannons (which I don't entirely blame them for with all the rage there is over Scythe Spam).
Anyway, with 110 base. They still end up 125 with the Destructors upgrade. Compromise.
I like it.
For the time being, the Tesla Destructors are just going to have to "count as" the other weapons (after all, we're giving Destroyers and Lychguard weapons they don't come with in the box, so it's gonna have to do until the next official model update happens, where they can insert extra weapons sprues.
On the Ghost Ark, Keep it AV11 is my vote. 11(13)/11(13)/11 is plenty tough for a transport. Aside from that, isn't just about every other vehicle with AV14 Heavy/Lumbering Behemoth (aside from DA's special landspeeder?)
I still think NS should have the destructed standard, but oh well.
Also, FO should have fear. not as an upgrade though. In the old rules they had the 'Terrifying Visage' rule, which is pretty much what fear is now.
Also, disruption fields should come back, but maybe as a 5-10 pts/ model upgrade that grants shred and/or rending? For Scarabs and FO only (maybe Lords?).
Also, seeming we are thinking (decided?) about a FO overlord special character, shouldn't there be a FO Overlord? (Maybe with disruption fields?)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: FO should have fear. not as an upgrade though. In the old rules they had the 'Terrifying Visage' rule, which is pretty much what fear is now.
Also, disruption fields should come back, but maybe as a 5-10 pts/ model upgrade that grants shred and/or rending? For Scarabs and FO only (maybe Lords?).
Also, seeming we are thinking (decided?) about a FO overlord special character, shouldn't there be a FO Overlord? (Maybe with disruption fields?)
Check out the Google doc/the update McNinja did a page or so back.
Well then, looks like British sleeping time isn't the best time to be away seen as so much gets done without you. Anyway, the GA and NS looks great I must say. So what now? We sorted Destroyers out, we still need to tidy up the rest of FA then have a proper look at HS. For FAimo...
Wraiths need a small (5-10ppm) price increase to reduce spam and keep things in balance
Tomb Blades maybe have the vanes bog standard and some other wargear?
Scarabs I think are alright, maybe something to give them an AI option
Actually, I was thinking the opposite for Wraiths. DEcrease the price by 5... and then charge 15 points per model to give the squad Phase Shifters. Without that 3++, they'll still be pretty decent as choppy infantry, just not as "OP" as they are now (and obviously the ability is still present, at the price you suggested, making them a little more fair).
For Tomb Blades, nah, keep the Shield Vanes as upgrades. Makes them a customize-as-you-see-fit strike squad if you want, while still retaining the ability to run the squad cheap and bare bones if you also want. I'll agree that perhaps some new/different equipment would be good (eg. the Heat Blaster x1 per squad, to really harass vehicles, or Transdimensional Beamers to act as our version of a JotWW-esque HQ harasser (unpredictable potential inv save negating attack). As the only unit that comes with Relentless naturally, these guys would benefit from this weapon the most (x3 per squad).)
And yeah, Scarabs just need to be updated to the IA12 versions to be adequate.
You can find it when we're finished, scroll back through skoffs made a draft one in google docs Page 2 or 3. Have a read then read the rest, any contributions you wanna make them please do, but not OP
Thanks Pariah, but who are Vanilla Marines?? I've seen it all over but I never know what it is...
Anyway cheers again. So with FA cleared up almost, it's onto HS, then just fluff and fine tuning
As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)
As rapid-response units it makes sense to have a weapon capable of destroying any outflanking interloper or tough resistance, but we'll leave it to the rest of those in the thread. And on Spyders almost no-one would use it, FCA is a better use of 10pts because of the short range, and they already have the Particle beamer option
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Thanks Pariah, but who are Vanilla Marines?? I've seen it all over but I never know what it is...
Anyway cheers again. So with FA cleared up almost, it's onto HS, then just fluff and fine tuning
Vanilla marines are Codex: Space Marine marines. They aren't any particularly flavorful army like Space Wolves or Blood Angels, so they're vanilla.
Tbh I like Vanilla.....
Anyways I'm going off on tangents again. We need to fix up HS.
DS... See NS basically, maybe tweak points as well it seems pricey.
Bring the oldcron monolith back, was terrified of it in my ork days.
Doom Ark... Make the moving blast AP3 is all it needs, maybe large too.
AB... Either a price hike or a worse gun, skoffs covered it well.
Spyders, unsure
quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.
Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.
Spyders- Fine as is
Doom Scythe-Fine
Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.
Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.
Sasori wrote: quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.
Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.
Spyders- Fine as is
Doom Scythe-Fine
Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.
Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.
Monolith, probably too pricey in that form because at 235pts its near-untakeable below 2000pts 1500 if you're skimping elsewhere
Spyders maybe just need to be able to spawn NEW units of scarabs as well as buff existing ones.
DS seems too expensive
Ark-the moving blast is too powerful its so close to full. Maybe battle cannon (S8 AP3) power
AB-Fair
Sasori wrote: quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.
Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.
Spyders- Fine as is
Doom Scythe-Fine
Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.
Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.
Monolith, probably too pricey in that form because at 235pts its near-untakeable below 2000pts 1500 if you're skimping elsewhere
Spyders maybe just need to be able to spawn NEW units of scarabs as well as buff existing ones.
DS seems too expensive
Ark-the moving blast is too powerful its so close to full. Maybe battle cannon (S8 AP3) power
AB-Fair
235 points, for increased protection, firepower, and an AV14 hull? You can't expect to give it all those major buffs, and not have it come up in price. I suppose you could throw on IWND, as well, but that seems over the top. With Deepstrike protection, you're able to get board control very easy now, with it's gate, and firepower. I think you may be underestimating the usefulness of it.
Spyders are pretty much point for point, the best MCs in the game. I think buffing them would be a mistake. They are already excellent. The only thing I would add, is additional ranged weapon upgrades.
DS is supposed to be expensive. It still has the best weapon mounted on a flyer in the game. You really can't make it much cheaper.
Ark- It's not that bad. There is plenty of cover out there. I find I rarely even have to move mine is. It's got excellent range, but that's really it. I guess you could give it battle cannon for the moving profile, but I honestly don't think the current profile firing and moving is that bad. Afterall, it's still 60 points more than a Vindicator, and people don't generally take those very much.
Alright I'll concede the monolith scythe and ark. But I find it odd fluff wise on the spyder. It crafts scarabs but can only add to existing units??? Wha-?!? Odd, just odd
Matt.Kingsley wrote: As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)
As rapid-response units it makes sense to have a weapon capable of destroying any outflanking interloper or tough resistance, but we'll leave it to the rest of those in the thread. And on Spyders almost no-one would use it, FCA is a better use of 10pts because of the short range, and they already have the Particle beamer option
I'm going to second the unfluffiness of the TDB on Tomb Blades unless there's a fluff change on the weapon (which I think I could do fairly easily). The codex states that the TDB is more like sci-fi super vacuum cleaner (gets rid of unwanted debris, machinery, etc.) and is why Canoptek units have access to it as they're the maintenance crew of Tomb Worlds.
Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?
Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast
As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.
King Pariah wrote: Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?
Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast
As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.
Its funny, the Tau Particle weapons are all AP 4, 3, and 2, yet Necron particle weapons aren't even close, despite necron tech being far superior.
King Pariah wrote: Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?
Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast
As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.
The tweaking was increasing the Monoliths cost, and it being a tottaly diffrent platform than the DD ark. You don't take the Monolith just for the weapon, it's just one of it's perks.
I still feel that there is no reason not have the current Strength 9 AP1 Large blast as it's moved weapon, with a strength 10 AP 1 Ord. being stationary. You could decrease the range on the moved weapon to 24'.
Really, I just want the old monolith back... 235 points of pure invulnerability...
Also, back to elites for a second... New unit idea (really a remake of an old unit with updated fluff and rules)
Canoptek Pariahs 160pts
Canoptek Pariahs are the last defence of a tomb world, aside from re-awakening the slumbering Necrons. They line the many corridors and halls of the tomb complex, looking little more than metal sculptures. When intruders are detected they re-activate to cleanse the tomb of their presence. Canoptek Pariahs are armed with great Warstaves, a combination between a Gauss weapon and a Warscythe, enabling them to swiftly dispatch their foes in close or from afar. The third ‘eye’ upon the Pariah’s forehead radiates sense of palpable menace and horror to those around them. This field blots out psychic emanations and infuses those nearby with a sense of their own mortality. Their necron masters often draft these silent protectors into their armies, using them as bodyguards or as the ultimate defence against witches and sorcerers. It is said that the form of these silent wardens is based on that of the Necrontyr themselves, during the time of flesh, but only the Necrons themselves or maybe even the books of the Black Library hold the answer, and neither will reveals their secrets easily…
WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 2 I 2 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 3+ Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Menace Projection Field Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will
Options: Up to 6 more Canoptek Pariahs...40pts/ model
Menace Projection Field: Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that. In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1.
That;s more of a fluff fight, though. Rules-wise I've tried to keep them as close to the old ones as possible, even going so far as to use the old Gauss Blaster profile. All they have in addition is +1 wound, 2 of their special rules combined as 1 piece of wargear and Adamantine Will.
From page 2, here's my fluff idea for bringing them back
King Pariah wrote: For the psy defence, maybe we could bring back the pariah in a manner? Fluff justification would be something along the lines of that they're attempts to reverse the bio transference that ultimately failed. While the transference of the mind and of the Necron in question succeeded, the warp tuned flesh of the many galactic species that the crypteks experimented on had violent reactions to the innate soullessness of the Necrons. As such, they wear a necrodermis shell that acts as life support. And then maybe something about their soullessness brought into the flesh has a pariah like effect in the warp.
yeah, Daemons are pretty much embodiment of souls, so having a Soulless Flesh body would be a crime against the laws of reality, which is the bane of the warp surely.
I do think Pariahs have a place and the rules Matt Kinsley wrote are great but hey'll have to cost a fair bit probably 45-55pts each even without RP cos they're so killy. Fluffwise I really like King Pariahs fluff of how they were created but we can blend the two, use Pariah's for how they came to be and Matt's for their role, strike a compromise?
RE: Tomb Blades carrying TDBs as being unfluffy- Granted... I guess the other option would be to add the Relentless usr to the others that all Canoptek units already have. (so Fearless, no RP, and Relentless... sounds about right for mindless robots). Then at least Wraiths or Arcanthrites would actually be able to use the TDB... though, it might not be bad on Spyders (not GOOD, just not bad).
RE: Nightscythes- Make them 110 points. Restrict to only Elites section dedicated transport (can carry other infantry, but the ability to purchase them will be restricted to 3 per FOC, thus preventing spam. With all infantry having access to the Ghost Ark now, rather than just Warriors, transportation shouldn't be a problem).
Additionally, perhaps we should limit the weapon options to just Tesla Cannon (comes with) and Tesla Destructor (can be upgraded for 15 points). Lightning seems like a good fit for a "Blitzkrieg" unit.
RE: other Heavy Support choices-
Annihilation Barge- -Comes with (twin linked) Gauss Cannons. Can be swapped out for Tesla Cannons (free) or upgraded to Heavy Gauss Cannons (10 points) or Tesla Destructors (15 points). No need for Skyfire, but Interceptor might be a good upgradeable option.
Doomscythe- -No Tesla Destructor. Comes with twin linked Gauss Cannon (upgraded to Heavy Gauss Cannon for 10 points). Then we can drop the price down to 155 points. Then it would be cheap enough to consider
Spyders- -Give them access to the TDB... though, not sure they'll need it. Also, remove the Gloom Prism and give it to the Harbinger of Order instead.
Only allowing new Scarabs to be added to existing units is probably an abuse prevention thing, so might be able to stay.
Monolith- -Guys, if we're trying to BALANCE the codex, we can't have the old Monolith back. It was WAAAY too over powered. "Pure Invulnerability" is quite the opposite of what we're trying for.
Yeah, give it a Battle Cannon, a way to mitigate Deep Strike mishaps, and maybe that's it as far as changes go. Price increase as well, maybe.
Doomsday Ark- -Agree with Sasori, it's not bad as it is. But S9 AP1 Large Blast (no move)/S6 AP3 Blast (move) wouldn't be a bad consideration. Perhaps a slight price drop, and the option to take Shadow Loom as an upgrade.
RE: "New Pariahs"- Whoooooaaa, that doesn't strike you as a little too over the top?
it's going to need some major work...
Probably have the Menace Field as an upgrade, so maybe:
Canoptek Pariahs 180pts
WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 2 I 2 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 3+ Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Pariah Warstave Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will
Options: Up to 6 more Canoptek Pariahs...45pts/ model The entire unit may have Menace Projection Fields...5pts/ model
Menace Projection Field: Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that. In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1.
Or maybe just remove adamantine will.
Or, as Mitranekh the Omniscient said, just increase the cost to about 50 pts/ model w/ built-in Menace Projection Fields
Also, V1 was less OP than the old ones for the most part, just saying
The issue is, they're just Lychguard with a Warscythe AND a better version of the Gauss Blaster.
Yeah, they don't have RP, but, come on.
If you're going to make a new Pariah unit, they should be original, not just a mash up of two currently existing units.
From the fluff you wrote, they seem more defense orientated.
Perhaps focus on that. Maybe THESE guys are the ones that have 2+ armor. Without the RP, that would still make them fair.
And a 24" shooting weapon seems a bit much for something that's supposed to stand guard and only come to life when intruders are present. I say give them the TDB as their shooting weapon (with us potentially giving all Canoptek units Relentless now, it would work very well for them, and still be fluffy).
Warscythes I'm torn on. Yes, old Pariahs had them, but... okay, whatever. (they're supposed to be statues after all, right? like suits of armor lining the halls of a fancy manor. I can imagine them standing there with halberd-esqu Warscythes at their sides).
The Menace Projectors, though... something seems too much about them.
Maybe just -1 to LD of all enemy units within 12"?
(-3 for Psykers, as well as some sort of detrimental bonus affect when testing for Perils)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, petitioning to change the name of "Menace Projection Field" to "Gloom Projectors".
Would match with the other anti-psyker equipment we've already got.
I was more or less just updating the old rules... then again those were OP so I suppose...
I still think the Psyker combat thing should exist, could be because that's one of my favorite things about them.
TBD would still be unfluffy if we use my background, as they only activate when enemies appear, while the TBD is used primarily to remove junk as it's a super vacuum.
Maybe a 12" (18"?) Str 5, AP 4 Assault 1 shot?
2 W, 2+ Sv, or just 2+ Sv?
Maybe for the Gloom Projectors:
-1 LD to all enemies withing 12". Psykers (friend or foe!) at within 6" at the start of their must pass a morale check or fall back along with their unit. If locked in combat they are instead WS 1. (As stated, I really like the old Psyker-combat de-buff. I even toned it down to make it less OP!)
WS 4
BS 4
S 4
T 4
W 1
I 3
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 3+
Composition: 4 Necron Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Hyperdermis
Special Rules: Fearless, Abominable Presence
Options:
Up to 6 more Necron Pariahs...40pts/ model
Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str +2, AP 4, Melee, Rending, Two-handed
Range: 24, Str 4, AP 4, Assault 2, Strike down
Hyperdermis:
Pariahs wear a unique type of armor loosely based upon necrontyr armor of old. Capable of immediately reacting and adjusting to changes within and without it, the hyperdermis acts not only as armor, but a mobile life support system, something these fleshy hosts desperately need as the body continuously attempts to reject the necrontyr essence. Grants FNP, however on a roll of 1 when rolling for FNP, the hyperdermis can no longer keep up with the flesh's lethal reactions and the Pariah model is immediately removed from play.
Abominable Presence:
Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.
In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1.
I'm with skoffs I think we've just about cleared this. King Pariah I3 crons doesn't fit and as the last line of defence for a tomb T4 is a little small. So Kingsley/Skoffs what was your final plan with options?
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: I'm with skoffs I think we've just about cleared this. King Pariah I3 crons doesn't fit and as the last line of defence for a tomb T4 is a little small. So Kingsley/Skoffs what was your final plan with options?
Well my variation was based on cryptek's attempts to reverse the biotransference not canoptek defence systems. Just posting what my idea was from page 2 in a bit more detail.
Oh yeah true duh. Well when you put it that way it is an idea, just the consensus seems to be going to the Canoptek version. Ah well, I liked your idea just not everyone did
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: Oh yeah true duh. Well when you put it that way it is an idea, just the consensus seems to be going to the Canoptek version. Ah well, I liked your idea just not everyone did
Meh, Okee doke. Though if I may, Pariah doesn't exactly sound like a fitting name for these canoptek constructs.
Canoptek Sentinels would be perfect... if it wasn't for the fact that the name is probably too close to Forge World's new Stalker variant from IA12 (Canoptek TOMB Sentinel).
Pity, as that name would have fit the fluff perfectly.
Hmm, "Guardians" seem like they're stepping on the toes of Lychguard, too.
skoffs wrote: Canoptek Sentinels would be perfect... if it wasn't for the fact that the name is probably too close to Forge World's new Stalker variant from IA12 (Canoptek TOMB Sentinel).
Pity, as that name would have fit the fluff perfectly.
Hmm, "Guardians" seem like they're stepping on the toes of Lychguard, too.
Hmmmm, more thinking required...
I think the problem is that the fluff. There are already 3 canoptek units that "guard tombs," Tomb Stalkers, Tomb Sentinels, and Canoptek Wraiths.
Holy poop, guys, I just had an idea.
(Now bear with me, as this deviates from the initial idea a tad much, but I think it could work):
Okay, so.
We've got these Canoptek guard statues, yes?
They sit there unmoving until something comes in, then pounce.
...
like a guard dog.
...
or guard CAT.
(reasoning: Necrons are basically Space Tomb Kings... well where are their Sphinxes?)
Canoptek Sphinx - 80pts
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 2
A 2
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Composition: 2 Canoptek Sphinxes
Unit Type: Beast
Wargear: Phase Talons, Sempiternal Weave
Special Rules: Fearless, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Rage
Options:
Up to 4 more Canoptek Sphinxes ... 40pts/ model
Any Canoptek Sphinx may take a Particle Incinerator ... 5pts/ model
Any Canoptek Sphinx may take a Gloom Projector ... 15pts/ model
Phase Talons:
Range: -, Str as user, AP 2, Melee, Fleshbane,
Particle Incinerator:
Range: 12" Str 5, AP 4 Assault 1
Gloom Projector:
-1 LD to all enemies withing 12". Psykers (friend or foe!) within 6" at the start of their assault phase must pass a morale check or fall back along with their unit. If locked in combat they are instead WS 1.
(... basically, just think Ravage, from Transformers).
This way, we have our anti-psyker role that Pariahs used to fill, but faster movement, so we can get them where we need them sooner, and without having yet another Lychguard/Praetorian lookalike (yes, I know everybody really liked the old Pariahs, but admit it, if we fix Lychguard, we don't really need more Warscythe wielders). Plus, this way, the whole "Canoptek constructs look like animals" thing still remains intact.
I have to say, judging by what I've read in this thread, this 'fandex' thing is ridiculous. You're taking one of the consistently strongest codexes and buffing it, for only very minor points increases here and there. Wanting to have 6 really great Warlord Traits? Wanting to give all units in a 36" radius a +1 to RP? Wanting to give all units within a 24" radius ATSKNF? That's just silly. I won't even get into the suggestion of the 36" bubble of twin-linked everything.
There are NO new codexes that have 6 perfect warlord traits. I didn't see a single suggested warlord trait that wouldn't be awesome to have, and that aren't better than any other warlord traits in any other book.
This isn't at all realistic, and isn't fitting with 6th edition's trend of having non-overpowering codexes like CSM, Daemons, DA, etc.
And paying 5 or 10 points more for a model, then massively buffing them isn't "balancing" anything. You think every model in a codex should be perfect? That'd make the codex even more overpowered.
Iron Dragon wrote: I have to say, judging by what I've read in this thread, this 'fandex' thing is ridiculous. You're taking one of the consistently strongest codexes and buffing it, for only very minor points increases here and there. Wanting to have 6 really great Warlord Traits? Wanting to give all units in a 36" radius a +1 to RP? Wanting to give all units within a 24" radius ATSKNF? That's just silly. I won't even get into the suggestion of the 36" bubble of twin-linked everything.
There are NO new codexes that have 6 perfect warlord traits. I didn't see a single suggested warlord trait that wouldn't be awesome to have, and that aren't better than any other warlord traits in any other book.
This isn't at all realistic, and isn't fitting with 6th edition's trend of having non-overpowering codexes like CSM, Daemons, DA, etc.
And paying 5 or 10 points more for a model, then massively buffing them isn't "balancing" anything. You think every model in a codex should be perfect? That'd make the codex even more overpowered.
ATSKNF was a 12" radius...
Also, I was thinking, maybe combine Sphinxes (?) and Pariahs into one unit, like maybe:
Canoptek Wardens
Canoptek Pariah
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 2
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Canoptek Sphinx
WS 5
BS 4
S 5
T 4
W 2
I 2
A 2
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Composition: 0 (see below)
Unit Type:
Canoptek Pariah are Infantry
Canoptek Sphinxes are Beasts
Wargear:
Canoptek Pariah - Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector
Canoptek Sphinx - 2 Hyperphase Talons, Sempiternal Weave
Special Rules:
Canoptek Pariah - Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless
Canoptek Sphinx - Fearless, Relentless, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Rage
Options:
Up to 10 of the following:
Canoptek Pariah...45pts/ model
Canoptek Sphinx...45pts/ model
Any Canoptek Sphinx may take:
A Gloom Prism...10pts
A Particle Incinerator...5pts
Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.
In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1
Phase Talons:
Range: -, Str As User, AP -, Melee, Ignores Armour Saves, Fleshbane
Fluff:
The Necrons have made many constructs to guard the halls of their tombs. In their inert state, they seem to be little more than statues, but to think of them as such is not a light mistake.
When activated, Canoptek Sphinx stalk the many halls of the tomb complex, searching for they prey. Once located, the Canoptek Sphinx will give chase, only stopping when their prey is destroyed, has fled the tomb or an even great threat appears.
To face one Canoptek Sphinx is frightening, but to face a whole pack is to face certain death in the eye. Their Phase Talons rip effortless through all but the strongest armour, and flesh seems to dissolve upon contact.
Canoptek Pariah are slower than their Canoptek Sphinx brethren, but their weapon is even more deadly. Although flesh does not instantly dissolve upon contact with its blade, the Pariah Warstaves can carve the barrel off a leman russ, or carve a hole in the side of a bunker. Psyker magiks have a hard time working upon Pariahs, their form built to resist such forms of attack.
If that wasn't enough, the Gloom Projectors built into their frames, the third 'eye' on their forehead, radiats a sense of menace and horror, that reminds their foes of their mortality... etc. (ran out of time to write, will finish later )
Actually seen as we're still on the Pariahs I had a suggestion TM 4oursword Necron Pariahs Creations of a mad Cryptek, Pariahs are grotesque fusions of human and Necron. Armed with Bale Staves, they stride into battle with reflexes no Necron could ever hope to achieve. However, this human dexterity comes with a price; human vulnerability. Pariahs are not the fearless automatons that other Necrons are, and are susceptible to many of the doubts and fears found within humanity. As a result, they are not the implacable warriors that the rest of their dynasty are. Regardless of this, the soullessness of these mute warriors emits a terrifying aura that terrifies even the boldest warrior and even scares the Phaerons and nemesors to a degree. It also creates a void in the Warp that renders the magicks of the living useless
Pariah (Pts tbc; I think 40-50) WSBS S T W I A LdSv 4 4 4 5 1 4 2 8 3+
Wargear; Balestave, Gloom Prism
Rules; Soulless, Stubborn
Balestaves Balestaves are long bladed staves that incorporate a gauss flayer. In the shooting phase the Pariah mayfire the balestave as a gauss flayer. In cc it has the following profile;
Range StrAP Rules Melee User 3 Soul Blaze (open to change on that)
Soulless To be in the presence of a Pariah is to know true fear. These beings have bargained away or otherwise lost their humanity, and all species regard them as abominations to life. Even fellow Necrons cannot tolerate being in close proximity to them for very long. All non-Pariahs (friend or foe!) within 6" have a -1 penalty to LdWS and BS (that may be a bit much) and all Psykers within 6" may not cast psychic powers.
What do you think? Tbh I'm thinking the sphinx this is a tad now and not very... Cron imho.
Iron Dragon wrote: I have to say, judging by what I've read in this thread, this 'fandex' thing is ridiculous. You're taking one of the consistently strongest codexes and buffing it, for only very minor points increases here and there. Wanting to have 6 really great Warlord Traits? Wanting to give all units in a 36" radius a +1 to RP? Wanting to give all units within a 24" radius ATSKNF? That's just silly. I won't even get into the suggestion of the 36" bubble of twin-linked everything.
There are NO new codexes that have 6 perfect warlord traits. I didn't see a single suggested warlord trait that wouldn't be awesome to have, and that aren't better than any other warlord traits in any other book.
This isn't at all realistic, and isn't fitting with 6th edition's trend of having non-overpowering codexes like CSM, Daemons, DA, etc.
And paying 5 or 10 points more for a model, then massively buffing them isn't "balancing" anything. You think every model in a codex should be perfect? That'd make the codex even more overpowered.
This.
This is exactly what we needed to hear: an outsiders opinion.
Creating in a vacuum leads to problems, and here we finally have someone pointing it out.
I keep trying to stress,
we can't just bump up prices and expect that fixes everything.
we HAVE to reduce the overall effectiveness of these overpowered units! then we can focus on buffing the crappy units.
but above all, NO PERFECT UNITS.
having everything in a category be "decent" should be our aim, with no one specific unit standing out as the "must take" (and definitely nothing that dominates over its peers in other codecies *coughOLD-MONOLITH/PARIAHScough*)
To Iron Dragon (and to any any other non-Necron players out there), help us out here, man.
What needs to happen to bring the codex to a more balanced level like that of CSM?
First obvious one would be Warlord Traits.
You're completely right. Having all six be good really isn't fair. There has to be some "meh, I guess it's okay..." ones as well as "all right! I got the REALLY good one!"
And we have to be careful about effective range.
We are MAINLY 24 inch shooting. We have to limit our 36"+ shooting AND effects. (no ATSKNF. It doesn't fit).
Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.
Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.
McNinja wrote: Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.
Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.
Canoptek Pariah
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 2
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Canoptek Sphinx
WS 5
BS 4
S 5
T 4
W 2
I 2
A 2
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Composition: 0 (see below)
Unit Type:
Canoptek Pariah are Infantry
Canoptek Sphinxes are Beasts
Wargear:
Canoptek Pariah - Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector
Canoptek Sphinx - 2 Hyperphase Talons, Sempiternal Weave
Special Rules:
Canoptek Pariah - Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless
Canoptek Sphinx - Fearless, Relentless, Infiltrate, Acute Senses, Rage
Options:
Must include up to 10 of the following:
Canoptek Pariah...45pts/ model
Canoptek Sphinx...40pts/ model
Any Canoptek Sphinx may take:
A Gloom Prism...10pts
A Particle Incinerator...5pts
Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Ignores Armour Saves (Basically the old Warscythe - ignoring ++ saves)
Range: 12", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 1, Gauss
Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld In addition, any psykers treat a model armed with a Gloom Projector as having the Fear special rule.
Phase Talons:
Range: -, Str User, AP 3, Melee, Shred
Come on, man.
Are you telling me anyone from another army wouldn't look at this and say this isn't broken?
The rule of thumb should be,
More "huh, that's not too bad"
Less "Holy hell, that's f'ing AWESOME!"
the reason I tried to suggest the Sphinx was to provide an alternative anti-psyker role to the OPed-ness that was the Pariahs (smaller squads, but faster with slightly different abilities. like an anti-psyker version of Fenris Wolves). Combing them both into the same unit just drives the OP levels into the stratosphere.
I know I am late but.... why was there a warlord trait giving And They Shall know no fear? My apologies but no. I play Chaos Space Marines. I have to pay extra to get ld10 on a single unit that has to sacrifice himself every time I get in CC, pay 25 points for fearless, or put a chaos lord in the squad to give them fearless. ATSKNF is far too good (plus it has been a loyalist Space Marine thing). Heck, it even laughs at fearless. Fearless has some benefits but any weapon with terrify (Eldar now have some!) invalidates fearless but noooo not and they shall know no fear. On top of that, it makes it even more difficult to break necrons in close combat where many have claimed they are terrible in. My apologies for being a bit exasperated.... just Chaos Space Marines xD (curse those loyalists! +1 point for that and the other good special rule they get!)
Anyways good luck balancing it all. Oh, and, hopefully I haven't missed it, if so please direct me, but how do you plan to fix MSS (too good)? And what about the Monolith (heard it isn't a good pick)?
Yeah, updated Pariahs are looking better, but they need to be 1W (T5 2+ saves with 2W is too much).
Psykers treating Gloom Projector carriers as having Fear is a good idea.
Warstave looks fairer, too. Might even be able to make it AP 4 for shooting.
With the changes to Ghost Arks (allow any infantry on board), or even dropping them off via Nightscythe (they're Elites, I'm assuming, so would be eligible to take it as a transport under the new restrictions), these guys could be decent.
Not sure about Adamantine Will, though. Relentless doesn't seem necessary, but if we're just giving it to all Canoptek units, then whatever.
Also,
StarTrotter wrote: And They Shall know no fear.
it has been a loyalist Space Marine thing.
EXACTLY.
No ATSKNF for Necrons.
how do you plan to fix MSS (too good)?
Reduce the test to 2D6, with reroll on successful pass (math says this will still be good, but not OP)
And what about the Monolith (heard it isn't a good pick)?
Mitigate deep strike mishaps, make the gun slightly more useful... possibly make more resilient to melta, but not sure on that one yet
MSS: change to 2D6 re-roll first successful, points increase
Also just realised that Gloom Projectors don't effect SM psykers (all flavours), going to have to change that...
Updated Pariahs:
Canoptek Pariahs...180pts WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 1 I 2 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 2+
Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless Options: May include up to 6 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...45pts/ model
Pariah Warstave: 2 profiles Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Ignores Armour Saves (Basically the old Warscythe - ignoring ++ saves) Range: 12", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 1, Gauss
Gloom Projector: Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld In addition, any psykers treat a model armed with a Gloom Projector as having the Fear special rule. Evens models normally immune to fear are effected, such is the power of these devices.
Designer's note: This means models with ATSKNF, Fearless, Daemonic Instability and other, similar, rules must take a fear test and become WS 1 if they fail.
Why does all the good stuff get done when us Brits have to sleep??? *sigh*
Thanks to Iron Dragon for the input, blunt but true and I'm glad to see that changes will be made. I think one of us could do with making v2.1 with all the updates in so as we can judge the effectiveness and balance
Sorry you misunderstand. I mean, compile all the ideas since you put up the first draft and made a 2nd draft of things now that we've just about covered everything, sorry I worded my last post poorly
McNinja wrote: Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.
Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.
Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.
Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5
McNinja wrote: Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.
Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.
Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.
Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5
Because in reality, it's typically not the nobility who does the fighting, but his men. And of course, wouldn't one of nobility want the best fighters under his pay to protect him?
McNinja wrote: Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.
Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.
Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.
Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5
Because in reality, it's typically not the nobility who does the fighting, but his men. And of course, wouldn't one of nobility want the best fighters under his pay to protect him?
Hit the nail on the head.
Throughout history, the nobility were usually the tacticians, with their bodyguards being the best fighters under their command.
... really, Zahndrekh and Obyron are the perfect illustration of this.
Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.
Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.
Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.
Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!
As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.
Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.
Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!
As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.
Frankly I'd rather not. I like the idea of leaders as leaders. Not uber warriors or champions.
I didn't mean to be so blunt earlier, but it was just angering to read what some people consider 'balance' and the way it would make an already strong codex into something that would dominate everything, all the time. There'd be zero reason to play anything except for necrons.
Take for example, this idea of Pariahs.
Canoptek Pariahs...180pts
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 2+
Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector
Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless
Options:
May include up to 6 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...45pts/ model
Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Ignores Armour Saves (Basically the old Warscythe - ignoring ++ saves)
Range: 12", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 1, Gauss
Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld In addition, any psykers treat a model armed with a Gloom Projector as having the Fear special rule. Evens models normally immune to fear are effected, such is the power of these devices.
Designer's note: This means models with ATSKNF, Fearless, Daemonic Instability and other, similar, rules must take a fear test and become WS 1 if they fail.
Compare to Deathwing Terminators. For 45 points per model (1 point more than a Deathwing Terminator), you want to have Terminators with 1 more toughness, 1 more strength, 1 more leadership, AP1 weapons that strike on initiative, have built in melta in assault, and also have a gauss shooting attack. They're fearless with ld10, have built-in protection against psykers via adamantine will, and negate the special rules of at least 7 other codexes. (Daemons, C:SM, CSM, BA, DA, SW and Orks).
Do you really think daemons, who have pathetically low leadership, really need another handicap? Your special rule would mean daemons in melee would fail their fear test about 50% of the time and fight at ws1. Marines would fail less often, but you're still negating their unique rules. Lets not even get into what this would do to Orks, who rely on the mob fearless rules to even have a chance in the current meta. It would also render the banner, that CSM are forced to pay for to gain fearless, useless. And it renders it useless basically for free since it's built into this Pariah idea.
This is akin to suggesting that the Eldar (Because they don't like Necrons) should have been given a rule that negates resurrection protocols and we'll be back.
Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.
Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!
As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.
Frankly I'd rather not. I like the idea of leaders as leaders. Not uber warriors or champions.
Eh, its just an idea. Also... I wrote up some stuff. Not all of the idea in this thread are included, mainly because I couldn't really keep track of what was going on some of the time. This is mostly my take on certain things, are few adjustments here and there.
The Pariahs are WIP right now but, I agree, OP for the price. Weakening the Sv and the weapon should suffice possibly to AP3 or 4 instead of 1. But in comparison to Deathwing they; Have no inv. Cannot DS on Turn 1 (or DS at all) Cannot split fire or have TL weapons Have no other options for weapons
You're right they are OP, but Deathwing Termis (and Deathwing Knights, who cost the same) are nearly as bad so perhaps not the best comparison. I'm not disagreeing though, just to be clear
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: The Pariahs are WIP right now but, I agree, OP for the price. Weakening the Sv and the weapon should suffice possibly to AP3 or 4 instead of 1. But in comparison to Deathwing they;
Have no inv.
Cannot DS on Turn 1 (or DS at all)
Cannot split fire or have TL weapons
Have no other options for weapons
You're right they are OP, but Deathwing Termis (and Deathwing Knights, who cost the same) are nearly as bad so perhaps not the best comparison. I'm not disagreeing though, just to be clear
I tried to pick a 45 point model with a similar save to compare with. It helps that the Deathwing some some unique abilities, so you can compare it to the proposed rule. No, Pariah doesn't have the invuln, and they are Init2, but.. their weapons are str5 and effectively AP1. So even striking at I2, they still go before other AP2 weapons (Which for the vast majority are unwieldy) and will almost always wound when they hit.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Tbh when I was pricing them, I was comparing them to chainfist termis, but even then my pricing was a bit off (not by much, I believe, though)
Yes, it lacks the strength bonus of the chainfist, but strikes at I2 and is str5 AP1. That's a pretty big advantage. And termies have to pay extra for a chainfist, too.
I take your point, well said. So Pariahs need weakening... Ok no biggie.
Has anyone thought on fluff btw? We can change it if we like or keep it as is and just write fluff for the new units
Perhaps this comes from the Bias of an Eldar player, but it would seem to me that the Necron weaknesses are, currently, lack of psychic defenses and lack of easy access to extreme long range weaponry. I don't believe this should change. And here's why:
Necrons have surprising maneuverability for how durable they are as a whole. Your leadership stat alone is quite a big deal, especially since RP makes it so a number of times you would normally take a LD test, you avoid it. Perfect example: Wraiths. 12" movement, ignores all terrain, even impassible, 2W and a 3+ invul save. There needs to be a chink in the armor of a codex, and outranging Necrons is one of those. Psychic abilities is another.
It's my opinion that there should be definite weaknesses in a codex, and they should be obvious. More importantly, they should not be corrected with additional units, rules, or things specifically hand crafted to counter them. This is where tactics and strategy come into play. A game should not be won in the list building phase. No game should ever have a participant that isn't at some kind of a disadvantage somewhere.
deathmagiks wrote: Perhaps this comes from the Bias of an Eldar player, but it would seem to me that the Necron weaknesses are, currently, lack of psychic defenses and lack of easy access to extreme long range weaponry. I don't believe this should change. And here's why:
Necrons have surprising maneuverability for how durable they are as a whole. Your leadership stat alone is quite a big deal, especially since RP makes it so a number of times you would normally take a LD test, you avoid it. Perfect example: Wraiths. 12" movement, ignores all terrain, even impassible, 2W and a 3+ invul save. There needs to be a chink in the armor of a codex, and outranging Necrons is one of those. Psychic abilities is another.
It's my opinion that there should be definite weaknesses in a codex, and they should be obvious. More importantly, they should not be corrected with additional units, rules, or things specifically hand crafted to counter them. This is where tactics and strategy come into play. A game should not be won in the list building phase. No game should ever have a participant that isn't at some kind of a disadvantage somewhere.
Hear, hear.
I do agree that we have to keep reigns on long range weaponry and psychic defense, but it shouldn't come as a complete lack. After all, both are already present in the current codex, just in a very limited capacity/come as a premium.
Right now our psychic defense comes on the back of Spyders... this makes no sense what so ever. I had hoped by giving the Gloom Prism to a Harbinger that might have made it a bit more functional without having to introduce any more anti psyker additions to the dex. But the clamor for Pariahs was extremely strong, so we thought we'd take a look at some options... but you're right. By making an uber strong "omg, I'm gonna spam the hell out of these!" anti psyker unit, we will be negating the weakness our army is supposed to come with to balance our strengths.
In regards to your "perfect example", we're trying to figure out how to balance Wraiths without fundamentally changing what they are (so movement and rules remain unchanged enough that we don't just craft them into something else).
Right now the ideas were to A) keep them as they are, but raise the price, or B) remove the Phase Shifter (their inv save), but keep it as an upgrade option (at a premium price, however). Any other suggestions?
If we changed the phase shifter then it has to get cheaper for OL and Lords to take cos 45pts for a 4++ is too much. I think we could drop the anti-psychic from the Pariahs and just leave it to that Harbinger of Order. That way we can fix them to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?
Leave the phase shifter, just up the points for the wraith. They are taken because they're so cost effective - 10 points cheaper than the phase shifter they have. I would increase the points by either 5 or 10 points. If we increase by 5 to 40, a full unit is 240, which is a bit morethan ssensible, since you take 3 whip coils minimum anyway.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Tbh when I was pricing them, I was comparing them to chainfist termis, but even then my pricing was a bit off (not by much, I believe, though)
Something you should all remember, is 2 units, if they have the exact same stats, across codices are not comparable. The unit could be the only of its type in the codex and could be highly valuable to that codex's army if its the only unit like a terminator in that army that's an elite but expensive group, and likewise it would be worth less if it's in a codex with lots of tanky options or similar alternatives.
Again, I stress, the stats between 2 units even if the exact same still have to take into account what else the codex has. In an already powerful codex like the necrons (which already needs some of its units to have revised points costs as it is; many increased and a few decreased) giving them a clearly powerful Elite unit slot (where the other elites are meh) wouldn't be a good idea even if they were the exact same as terminators.
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: That way we can fix them [Pariahs] to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?
but then... why would anyone take Lychguard or Praetorians?
Also, guys, Wraiths are one of the most common units people single out when trying to illustrate how unfair the Necron codex is.
A five point increase is NOT enough to balance them. Anything less than 45 point per model at the current iteration would be unrealistic.
However, at 45 points per model, that is very cost prohibitive (280 for a full squad, one with Whip Coils).
THAT is why I suggested dropping the Phase Shifter as comes-with wargear and making it a purchasable unit upgrade: so the option to run them cheap still exists.
You can either have a normal 3+ Wraith squad for 30 points per model (fast, cheap, and choppy, but weak. Like an assault version of Tomb Blades), or for 15 points more you can give them 3++ (tankable but expensive).
Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote: That way we can fix them [Pariahs] to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?
but then... why would anyone take Lychguard or Praetorians?
Also, guys, Wraiths are one of the most common units people single out when trying to illustrate how unfair the Necron codex is.
A five point increase is NOT enough to balance them. Anything less than 45 point per model at the current iteration would be unrealistic.
However, at 45 points per model, that is very cost prohibitive (280 for a full squad, one with Whip Coils).
THAT is why I suggested dropping the Phase Shifter as comes-with wargear and making it a purchasable unit upgrade: so the option to run them cheap still exists.
You can either have a normal 3+ Wraith squad for 30 points per model (fast, cheap, and choppy, but weak. Like an assault version of Tomb Blades), or for 15 points more you can give them 3++ (tankable but expensive).
Frankly, I'd stick with dropping them to 1 wound. But that just may be me reminiscing about the glass cannon feel of the old cron Wraiths.
My opinion for balancing wraiths changes them a bit.
2 Options:
1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.
2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?
^
That second idea wouldn't be so bad if there was a way for them to be able to assault after deep strike. Otherwise, as soon as you roll snake eyes, they're effectively useless for two turns. Having that big of a handicap would render them untakeable. If it were only one turn of inactivity, able to come back the next turn and be of use again, well, that's not so bad.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.
Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.
Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.
If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.
Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.
Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.
If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.
Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.
Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.
Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.
If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.
Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.
A piece of wargear could be something along the lines of "space-time destabilizer - all units within 6" of the Pariah have their WS and I reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1." or some such thing.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Why would anyone take Pariahs without the Gloom Projector? They'd be a gak midground between Lychguard and Triach Praetorians.
Maybe instead of Fear, psykers must pass a leadership test or have -2 (-1?) WS.
Sort of seconded. The whole point of pariahs (oldcron) was to screw around with leadership. and warscythes but that's a roll taken up by Lychguard (which is why in my suggested profile, I didn't give them warscythes). Without leadership shenanigans Pariahs are not pariahs and as an upgrade, they're really not all that different from a Tomb Spyder with their gloom prisms.
If Pariahs aren't able to screw around with opponents in a manner related to their Leadership stat as standard, I wouldn't bother calling them pariahs.
Thinking about it, perhaps we really should change what Pariahs are.
Previously the Old-Cron Pariahs were elite tough guys who could rip a tank open and screw with psykers.
Well, now Lychguard and Praetorians have taken over the role for that first part.
Perhaps Pariahs no longer need to be so killy.
Perhaps Pariahs should fill more of a tactical role, something like a disruption squad, there to screw with leadership and psykers, not actually doing the killing themselves, but forcing things to happen (morale checks, pinning tests, reducing weapon skills, etc. Psychological warfare, basically) which will allow the other killy unit in the army to roll up and do the dirty work eaiser.
A piece of wargear could be something along the lines of "space-time destabilizer - all units within 6" of the Pariah have their WS and I reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1." or some such thing.
Oh that's good actually. But maybe we'll need to tweak the statlines/wargear too if we're putting them in support because if we give them nasty weapons then they lose the feel of a support unit, same with powerful stats.
1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.
2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?
I agree about point 2. Makes them less autotakes but they would need assault after DS or they're out of the game for a good while. Very fluffy as well they'd probably be 40 or 45 pts if we ran that though because in a way they get MORE maneuvrable
1) Either make them 4++ or remove 1 wound. Having them be resilient is fine, so I'm ok with them keeping the 3++, but saying "well they're vulnerable to instant death" doesn't really cut it for me given everything else they can do. Something that moves that fast, and hits that hard, should not be able to just make a 3++ 2W wall in front of the rest of the army for as cheaply as they do.
2) Don't change their stats, slightly increase their price, but make them have to roll for movement on a 2d6 with no run option (they're constantly shifting through the different dimensions available to them, so whatever propulsion they're using bleeds some of the kinetic energy they've got off into those dimensions), double 1's they phase into the ground/disappear and go into ongoing reserves. To counteract this, they can deep strike, but scatter on just 1d6 to represent them coming up from the ground. This is an off the cuff idea, but maybe it might work?
I agree about point 2. Makes them less autotakes but they would need assault after DS or they're out of the game for a good while. Very fluffy as well they'd probably be 40 or 45 pts if we ran that though because in a way they get MORE maneuvrable
The only problem with that is the fact that now they're incredibly unreliable now. Chance to move only three inches, and if you roll incredibad you are out of the game for turn? No thanks. That would take them from auto-takes to never-takes. Especially for 45 points.
If you change it to 30 ppm, remove the phase shifter, then add the option to buy it for 15 points, that works. You're still buying it for 1/3 of the cost.
Hmm, I like some of the suggestions about Pariahs, already have new rules/fluff/options figured out.
Bit of a pain to post them from my iPod, though, so when I get home (about 6-7 hours hopefully) I'll post them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still deciding on Points costs.
Canoptek Pariahs...(150-175?)pts
Canoptek Pariahs stand silent, guarding the halls of Necron tomb complexes. To an onlooker in their inert state, they seem little more than statues, works of art, symbolically guarding the depths of the tomb, similar to how a king of old would line his halls with suits of armour. These Pariahs are more than statues, however, and they are more than symbolic guardians. Unlike other guards, however, Pariahs do not seek to engage their foe in combat. Instead they stand some distance from their foe, allowing the arcane technology built into their sturdy frame to interrupt and disturb their opponent while the other Canoptek inhabitants of the tomb engage the foe. Once their masters waken, Pariahs are often used upon the field of battle to lessen the effectiveness of their foes, either forcing opponents to retread, messing with the minds or slowing and disrupting the flow of space-time in their vicinity. It is said that the form of these silent wardens is based on that of the Necrontyr themselves, during the time of flesh, but only the Necrons themselves or maybe even the books of the Black Library hold the answer, and neither will reveals their secrets easily…
WS 3 BS 3 S 5 T 5 W 1 I 2 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 3+
Composition: 5 Canoptek Pariahs Unit Type: Infantry Wargear: Ornate Staff, Gloom Projector Special Rules: Fearless, Relentless Options: May include up to 5 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...(30-35?)pts/ model Up to 5 models may replace their Ornate Staff with a Warstave...(10-15?)pts For every five modles in the unit, 1 may replace their Ornate Staff with a Staff of Light...(15-20?)pts 1 model may replace their Gloom Projector with: Hallucinogen Rift...(15?)pts Space-Time Destabiliser...(25-30?)pts
Warstave: 2 profiles Range: -, Str User, AP 4, Melee, Two-handed, Unwieldy, Gauss (not a typo, I mean it!) Range: 12", Str 5, AP 4, Heavy 1, Gauss
Gloom Projector: Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld In addition, any psykers within 6" must pass a leadership test else they have -2 WS (to a minimum of 1) A model armed with a Gloom Projector has Adamantine Will
Hallucinogen Rift: Enemy units with a model within 12” must pass a morale check else they fall back In addition, any enemy units with a model within 6” must take a pinning test. A model armed with a Hallucinogen Rift has Fear
Space-Time Destabiliser: Enemy units with a model within 12” are treated as being in difficult terrain. In addition, any enemy model within 6” must pass a strength test else has -1 WS, to a minimum of 1. A model armed with a Space-Time Destabiliser has a 6+ invulnerable save
Still finalising the fluff for the wargear, I still have the basic idea, though.
The destabiliser is likely OPimo. And despite being a support unit and a canoptek unit they are worse in CC than a warrior with WS3? Huh? Then again scarabs and spyders have low WS so maybe. The staves are good but gauss cc seems odd but if it fits then ok. The warstaves are almost autotakes as well for 10pts they are so much better than the base weapon in cc and at range. I'd make the warstave limited to 1 per 5 men, same with SoL, and make the unit 5 basic to keep in line with most units. I do like the fluff though.
You could make the stave unwieldy and the weapon Heavy. theres a use for relentless and makes the weapon weaker in cc. Possibly drop gauss too, 10pts 3 per unit
I thought it was cool, but eh, I kinda want to keep the current fluff...
Maybe a compromise? Maybe a few dynasties got corrupted by the C'Tan to believe that they need to collect C'Tan shards to rebuild the C'Tan, thinking the Eldar destroyed them.
I thought it was cool, but eh, I kinda want to keep the current fluff...
Maybe a compromise? Maybe a few dynasties got corrupted by the C'Tan to believe that they need to collect C'Tan shards to rebuild the C'Tan, thinking the Eldar destroyed them.
Clever we'll discuss it with others if they want to chip in but I like that
There's nothing saying both fluffs can't exist concurrently.
As in, everyone is awake/free from the C'tan, but there are certain sects that are malfunctioning / still programed to operate as they did before.
(C'tan Cults)
skoffs wrote: There's nothing saying both fluffs can't exist concurrently.
As in, everyone is awake/free from the C'tan, but there are certain sects that are malfunctioning / still programed to operate as they did before.
(C'tan Cults)
This. Great idea I like it well, we're just about there now
Hi, this is an awesome project, and I'm pretty impressed at the work going in to keeping it from being rediculous.
A couple thoughts, sorry if I'm throwing new ideas in late and I apologise I've missed something;
I like the concept for the canoptek pariahs. definitely like the new fluff better than the old. I think "ornate staff' is a silly and overly discriptive name though, it seems like something from a badly translated 80's computer RPG. How about "guardian staff" or "rod of disruption"... Something with *feeling.*
Monolith; Personally, rather than a better partical whip, I'd rather the flux arcs had skyfire/interceptor (giving necrons dedicated anti-air without having to spam scythes and re-inforcing its status as a moving fortification.). I'd also like to give the Eternity Gate a second d6 for range- so it threatens anyone in charge range rather than threatening virtually no-one.
I am confused why the Monolith is in the Dedicated Transport section as nothing lists it as a transport. It also has no "capacity." (though, letting units board to reserves or ongoing reserves would be interesting.)
I'd like to see a canoptek *something* as a troop choice. One of the things that the fluff talks about is how the canopteks protect the Tombs while all the Necrons sleep. This seems like an interesting army concept, but it's currently not available. I'd probably go with the Scarabs as troops- which also increases the ability to horde them... but they'd probably need something of a power downgrade for that. An alternative, since there currently isn't a Canoptek HQ and I have a hard time imagining one, a (generic) Cryptek wargear/special rule option that makes scarabs Troop choices (heh; call it "Canoptek Priest") .
Random mostly-fluff into crunch thought; Should you be able to purchase two Phaerons? Should it have some purchase limit? Maybe one per army, one per detachment, something? It just seems weird to me that you could (conceivably) have 2 phaerons in a (relatively) low point game.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I only called it 'ornate staff' as I couldn't come up with anything better at the time.
I like 'Guardian Staff, though .
Had to modify them, but off a list of 25 I got;
Living Sceptre (sounds necron-y)
Baton of Lightning (sounds like a CC weapon with the Tesla special rule)
Soldiers' Sceptre
Doomed Rod (did someone say something about a C’tan cult?)
Sacred Stave
Priests’ Sceptre (something for a Cryptek?... better than Galstaff's "staff of light")
Ancestral Rod (ok, that could be inappropriate)
silentone2k wrote: Hi, this is an awesome project, and I'm pretty impressed at the work going in to keeping it from being rediculous.
A couple thoughts, sorry if I'm throwing new ideas in late and I apologise I've missed something;
I like the concept for the canoptek pariahs. definitely like the new fluff better than the old. I think "ornate staff' is a silly and overly discriptive name though, it seems like something from a badly translated 80's computer RPG. How about "guardian staff" or "rod of disruption"... Something with *feeling.*
Monolith; Personally, rather than a better partical whip, I'd rather the flux arcs had skyfire/interceptor (giving necrons dedicated anti-air without having to spam scythes and re-inforcing its status as a moving fortification.). I'd also like to give the Eternity Gate a second d6 for range- so it threatens anyone in charge range rather than threatening virtually no-one.
I am confused why the Monolith is in the Dedicated Transport section as nothing lists it as a transport. It also has no "capacity." (though, letting units board to reserves or ongoing reserves would be interesting.)
I'd like to see a canoptek *something* as a troop choice. One of the things that the fluff talks about is how the canopteks protect the Tombs while all the Necrons sleep. This seems like an interesting army concept, but it's currently not available. I'd probably go with the Scarabs as troops- which also increases the ability to horde them... but they'd probably need something of a power downgrade for that. An alternative, since there currently isn't a Canoptek HQ and I have a hard time imagining one, a (generic) Cryptek wargear/special rule option that makes scarabs Troop choices (heh; call it "Canoptek Priest") .
Anyway, good stuff.
Thanks glad to know we're on the right track after all this work.
Pariah weapon name suggestions are decent, I'm not sure on my favourite. I like the idea of Canoptek troops if the Pariahs are weak enough they could do it. Canoptek HQ... I don't think so because the Canopteks are controlled by the mater programme and have no sentience.
Monolith is HS not DT. I like the idea on the flux arcs too, makes sense tbh, but if we do that we can't fiddle with the Gate as then it becomes OP
Thanks glad to know we're on the right track after all this work.
Pariah weapon name suggestions are decent, I'm not sure on my favourite. I like the idea of Canoptek troops if the Pariahs are weak enough they could do it. Canoptek HQ... I don't think so because the Canopteks are controlled by the mater programme and have no sentience.
Monolith is HS not DT. I like the idea on the flux arcs too, makes sense tbh, but if we do that we can't fiddle with the Gate as then it becomes OP
You've exactly hit why I'm having trouble trying to imagine a Canoptek HQ. It would have to be an expression of that AI somehow, a link. Fluffily something like the way Tyranids are simply expressions of the hive mind, and they have broodlords and the like, without actually meandering into that whole synapse brand of crazy. Anyway, probably thinking too hard about something no one else cares about.
Monolith; I expected the monolith to be HS, but the draft I saw it looked like it was in with the DTs, thus my puzzlement. Actually, it looks like the problem is an incorrect heading...
You're right about the OP, my point is just that, of all the things to fiddle with, the whip seems the least important.
Putting the two topics together like that, gave me a stupid idea. I'll share, behind a spoiler, and fully expect it to get ignored (hopefully not flamed). But it amused me;
Spoiler:
Purchasable upgrade for the Monolith.
Canoptic Command; 100 points; Among the countless Tombs of the Necrons only a handfull have fully woken. Most remain quiescent, awaiting some trigger to return their once-living masters to activity. Meanwhile the response programs of the Tomb itself work to keep the ravages of the aeons at bay. To protect its charges from the ravages of the elements and would-be thieves, to destroy the few remaining enemies who remember the Necrons as they once were, and to ensure the necessary supplies are maintained to continue its own function and the maintenance of those it serves.
Much like their creators, the Canoptek systems use Monoliths as tactical nodes for conflicts. While the hypertechnology of the Canoptek system is perfectly capable of maintaining contact with and controlling its probes and forces, these monstrous machines are unparalleled as reference points and relays.
This unit occupies an HQ slot in your force structure in addition to its normal Heavy Support slot. The occupied slot may be the mandatory HQ slot for a detachment. If a Monolith has this upgrade the army cannot have any Crypteks, Lords (including Destroyer Lords, etc), Overlords, or non-canoptek named characters.
If this unit is your warlord it does not gain a Warlord trait. (or has "Always a Plan in Motion."}
Now you can have a sleeping Tomb World Necron army because you don't need actual, y'know, necrons... and you can have an effen tank for a warlord. I am aware that outside special rule sets you don't ever see vehicles as HQ's and that this is madness. Now, if you've had a good wtf moment, go do something productive for this project.
I'm not so keen, it... fits but its weird, 300pts (200 basic + 100 upgrade) to give up all your HQ options and gain NO BUFFS WHATSOEVER! I'm not so sure. But it would be fun to try something.
Yeah, especially since they way it's written it takes up 2 slots (1 HQ & 1 HS)
The upgrade needs to be less expensive with minor buff, or stay the same cost And have a MASSIVE/lots of minor buff(s)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, especially since they way it's written it takes up 2 slots (1 HQ & 1 HS)
The upgrade needs to be less expensive with minor buff, or stay the same cost And have a MASSIVE/lots of minor buff(s)
Agreed. Perhaps an Orders system like IG has to represent the Master Programmes instruction, only affects Canoptek units
We'll get told to shush cos it's too OP and that defeats the point, but we can try. Probably there would be a redeployment/movement one, a shooting one and an assault one. Plus a summoning thing that can move units to AND from the command centre
Wow, ok, that's already more consideration than I expected.
Bear in mind that it is making an AV14 4HP tank your warlord, and what kind of existential pain that is going to bring your opponents.
Honestly, I wouldn't go the "orders" route. That's an IG thing and it seems wrong to steal it. I would give it some tech buffs. Ideas;
Ghost Beacon; The presence of the Canoptek Command provides an invaluable relay station for communications and coordination for the Canoptek systems. Identify a location within 24" of this unit. Units targeting that point with Deep Strike this round do not scatter.
Tomb Gate: Friendly, unengaged, non-vehicle Necron unit may Embark within the Monolith, as embarking a vehicle moving at combat speed, and are immediately placed in reserve.
Wraithlight: Friendly units ignore the effects of the Night Fighting, Stealth, and Shrouded special rules against enemies within 12” of the Command node.
Well, the portal would cost 50 points at least, 75 points at most (I feel)
Also, for simplicities sake, I'd make it a HQ choice full stop.
So (Mitranekh the Omniscient's route): HQ Canoptek Command Monolith...335pts (After wrting everything up, I felt 300pts was too cheap)
BS 4 F 14 S 14 R 14
HP 4
Type: Heavy, Skimmer, Tank
Special Rules: Deep Stike, Living Metal, Canoptek Command, Skyfire, Interceptor
Wargear: Four gauss flux arcs, particle whip, eternity gate
Canoptek Command: An army that includes a model with this rule may only include Canoptek units (Wraiths, Spyders, Scarabs, Pariahs). It must be your warlord. In addition, it may use its Eternity Gate to redeploy friendly non-vehicle units. Any unit with a model within 2" of the model's Eternity Gate may deploy by deep strike anywhere within 24" of the Canoptek Command Monolith's position.
In addition, it can issue 1 command per turn. To issue a command, pick a Canoptek unit within 24" of the Canoptek Command Monolith at the start of the movement phase. This unit must pass a Leadership test. If it passes, it gains one of the following effects: -The unit has the Fleet special rule -The unit may run and shoot or shoot and run. All shots fired are snapshots -The unit may move 6+D3" in the movement phase
Maybe?
Though after reading silentone2k's post above (was typing when you posted so I didn't see it) I prefer his approach. Seems less OP.
Of course, on reflection, pretty much all my actual suggestions are far more useful for a Normcron army than a Canoptek army. Canopteks are more close fire/CC, and don't have DS... Merr.
Instead;
Wrath of the Tomb; Canoptek Scarabs are a Troop Choice.
Infinite Gate; Once per turn the Command node may give a Canoptek unit in reserve the Deep Strike special rule. That unit must target a location within 18" of the Monolith. The Monolith may use its Eternity Gate normally in the same turn.
Canoptek Warrior Drones Only available with The Master Control Pyramid (M.C.P.™)
Same stat line as normal Warriors, but replace Reanimation Protocols with Fearless.
(Basically, the M.C.P.™ making Warrior Drones would be the Necron equivalent of Typhus making Zombie Cultists)
This would be both fluffy (like that one tomb world mentioned in the Ward codex that reprogrammed all the Necron to be mindless drones. So now, instead of relying on sentience, it just mass produces automatons it can remotely control (very tempted to make a function which allows the inclusion of a Lord with Trazyn like come-back-by-replacing-a-different-model resiliency, so as to have some sort of Avatar for the M.C.P.™ to enact its will with, ala Mass Effect Reaper "Assuming direct control") Plus, this way we finally get our REAL Skynet Terminator army) and functional (Warriors suck in combat because they get swept easily. Cultists are good because they can hold an objective without having to worry about being swept. If you had a fearless unit that had RP, that would be broken. But simply fearless robots? That's not so bad, right? Plus, it would give us the option for troops without resorting to using one of the other Canoptek units as troops (which might be seen as OP).
There is also a reference in the current codex to something very like this being a standard thing anyway; the MCP runs the Warriors as drones until enough C&C units are awake to take over control. Could fluff out the loss of RP as Control simply removing damaged individuals to preserve resources... akin to the old "phase out."
That's really clever because it means we have a unit that can hold objectives (Scarabs can't cos they're Swarms) and allow players to create the Severed Worlds (Sarkoni Emperor anyone?). But how far would the MCP's control stretch-just on Warriors or to others like Immortals/Tomb Blades/other?
Nah, gotta keep it simple.
Typhus doesn't get to create Zombie Plague Marines, etc., we shouldn't get to have Drone Immortals, etc.
(the MCP sees the Drones as mass produced cost efficient labor for dirty work, not caring if it loses another one under a toppling Pylon, where as for more specialized jobs it relies on the specialist Canoptek units).
For the "Host Platform" (the direct controlled/possessed body that becomes the Avatar for the MCP), perhaps make it an Overlord, only with 1 wound and no RP. The catch will be, when it dies, roll a D6. On a 2+, the MCP Overlord comes back as another possesed Warrior (akin to Trazyn's power, only instead of being random, it can be "any unengaged Warrior Drone of the players choice"). When it dies a second time, it can come back on a 3+. And so on and so on until the 5th repossession (a 6+... so highly unlikely). After that, no more.
Guys, you have no idea how bad I want an AI controlled Necron army.
Not only will it be extremely fluffy, but could be seriously fun to play.
I agree I just thought I'd put it out there. I'd also fancy an AI/MCP army my dynasty has a Severed World as one of its fringeworlds and I'd love to use it. The 'Host' OL would be good as well and it's not too unkillable unlike Trazyn can be if you spam Royal Courts and Lychguard. Should there be perks for the Canoptek units eg Scarabs holding objectives? Besides a spammed out Monolith there aren't many tabletop reasons for taking it.
I'd love to see those kinds of abilities/wargear be applicable to Crypteks. The ability to make the lowest level Canopteks scoring, more common, repair them, etc fits with their fluff of being the keepers of the Canoptek systems. Though a similar note is; how often do you see Cryptek Warlords now if you can get an Overlord and get up to 5 without costing an FO slot.
I would like to make sure that we aren't making Monoliths spammable. That's part of the reason I made them 2 FO slots, they're limited in lower point games by cost and in higher point games by FO slots. Throwing up to 5 monoliths on the table seems a little... intense? excessive? (OP.)
For another tangent;
Spoiler:
Someone mentioned C'tan cults earlier... this is without reviewing what's already been done to Shards.
Unchained
HQ choice
??? points
<shard statline>
After the War in Heaven the Necrons revolted against their gods, shattering them and locking away the pieces with their greatest technology. What the royalty of the species failed to account for was the madness that would haunt them. The whispers of power that extend from the vaults of the C'tan are great lures to any lord, a source of energy, of knowledge, or a living war machine of untold potential. The dark truth, however, is that the hardware which makes up the Necron body and mind is designed to encourage faith and loyalty, and released from the command protocols of the Silent King many have sought a target for that loyalty and, among the billions of Tombs, there are more than a few places where these two desires have come together. Ancient beliefs and rites have been returned and the splinters of their ravenous gods restored to their rightful place as masters rather than chained slaves. These entities are the darkest fears of the Necron royalty made real; C'tan which were never captured or painstakingly imprisoned Shards that have regained their freedom.
Rightful Leader;
If there is at least one Unchained in your army no other unit type may be your Warlord.
Power Overwhelming
Unchained must purchase at least two powers from the C'tan Shard list, but may have more. An Unchained may duplicate a C'tan power possessed by C'tan Shard or any other Unchained. Further, C'tan may purchase any of the following wargear;
(pretty much everything on the Overlord and Cryptek list, its a star god- you going to say they can't do that?)
I agree Monoliths cannot be spammed because in 6th AV14 is a pain in the ++deleted by Inquisition++ (unless you are a cron thanks to gauss). As for the C'tan thing... Idk, its clever and fluffy (well, ish) but I don't see people taking it if it's anymore than a Shard because you can get an OL and RC to do half the work and a Shard for the rest, meaning that you get more flexibility, and it's as powerful as a Shard (Idk how powerful that is I don't use them but in this era of MC's there are better)
Is there some way I can catch up quickly? (10 pages of posts is a little daunting - but can do it if that's the best way).
The Canoptek Warrior Drones are a brilliant idea. What happens if the MCP gets killed though? Do all drones just die (no command loop anymore?). Other alternatives:
a) Units within 12" of an HQ or Canoptek Unit (excluding Warrior Drones) (maybe cryptek?) able to operate normally. All other units revert to dormant state but will auto attack an enemy unit within 6".
b) Roll vs Initiative. If passed then operate normally, otherwise dormant
Re a cryptek buff, what about night fight? We only have a couple of units that can shoot more than 24" anyway, so not like that would give us an overwhelming advantage.
MarkCron wrote: The Canoptek Warrior Drones are a brilliant idea. What happens if the MCP gets killed though? Do all drones just die (no command loop anymore?).
It would probably be best to have it something along the lines of what happens to the Tyranid when they lose synapse.
An initiative-test-or-go-into-standby-mode (defensive reactions only) wouldn't be a bad idea.
I like the idea of shutdown, but it sort of treads on nid toes. As for Night Fighting as a Cryptek buff we already have the Solar Pulse for that. I think for the MCP death thing it could be cannot move but shoots at the nearest visible enemy (the current dex has a bit of fluff saying they settle into a guard routine without any orders)
My bad, I meant Night Vision - really, advanced metal robots that can't see in the dark?
Re the shutdown, some form of stasis or automated program is quite fluffy I think, as is the idea of having Canoptek units being able to control them. If anything it fits better than with the Nids.
AV14 and 4 HP isn't OPimho. That's only 1 HP more than a landraider and they really aren't a problem for anyone with drop pods/melta or haywire. So, anyone taking it will need some fairly good buffs or it won't be worth 335 points.
Well atm the gate can work 2 ways in terms of the corridor, it gains interceptor, DS protection in 24" and removes 'hiding' rules within 6/12", as well as buffing Canoptek units (maybe) and its still an AV14 4HP tank with particle whip and intercepting flux arcs AND the buffed eternity gate. Plus it's a change from the OL/RC era but it can't be TOO OP or no-one will take a 'normal' cron army. Hence its so pricey (I think)
Hmm... new write up of the rules (for the Monolith-thing)...
HQ (0-1) Master Command Monolith...300pts
BS 4 F 14 S 14 R 14 HP 4
Type: Heavy, Skimmer, Tank
Special Rules: Deep Strike, Living Metal, Master-Program Wargear: Four gauss interceptor arcs, particle whip, infinity gate
Gauss Interceptor Arc: Range: 24" Str: 5 AP: 4 Type: Heavy 3, Gauss*, Interceptor, Skyfire *A Gauss interceptor arc can be fired at a different target unit to other weapons on the vehicle (including other gauss interceptor arcs) subject to the normal rules for shooting.
Infinity Gate: An infinity gate follows all the rules for an eternity gate. In addition, a unit may 'embark' upon a Master Command Monolith treating the infinity gate as an access point. A unit that does so enter ongoing deep strike reserves.
Master-Program: All Canoptek units except Scarabs (Wraiths, Spyders, Warrior-Drones, Pariahs) are scoring units, if they weren't already. Scarabs, instead, are troops choices. If this unit is destroyed, Warrior-Drones must immediately go to ground. However, they may fire in the shooting phase, treated as snap firing. Pariahs may not move, run, shoot or assault until an enemy unit moves within 12" of them. Spyders must move towards the nearest friendly vehicle, and follow it. They cannot assault an enemy unit unless that unit is assault the closest friendly vehicle to it. They may shoot as normal but may not run. Wraiths must move towards and assault the closest enemy unit. The must shoot or run towards this unit. Scarabs must move towards and assault the closest unit (friend or foe!) and for every two wounds they cause in combat, the unit regains a wound. If all models in the unit have their maximum number of wounds, a new scarab base is added to the unit for up to every three excess wounds. Repeat this process until no excess wounds remain. This may take the unit above it's starting size. (read the fluff for scarabs )
Options: May replace particle whip for a ghost beacon...5pts
Ghost Beacon: Friendly units that deep strike within 18" of a model with a ghost beacon do not scatter.
I've been thinking about the AI controller thing, and in my mind the Master command monolith is a huge thing that dominates the field, the absolute centre of attention. But it's sphere of control is quite small, based around it's own sensor arrays. It's not very mobile. With this view, I ended up going at this differently - see below. I've tried to cost it appropriately, but in my mind this unit has a 2 turn life at best. I toyed with the idea of being able to self repair, but that seemed OP.
Hope something from below is useful.
HQ (0-1)
Master Command Monolith...300pts
BS 4
F 14
S 14
R 14
HP 4
Unique
Type: Heavy, Tank
Special Rules: Living Metal, Robotic Commitment, Automated Replenishment, Misson Focus, Sensor Analysis, Co-ordinated defence, Generated camouflage
Wargear: Four Gauss Flayers, particle whip, infinity gate
Infinity Gate:
An infinity gate follows all the rules for an eternity gate.
In addition, a unit may 'embark' upon a Master Command Monolith treating the infinity gate as an access point.
A unit that does so enter ongoing reserves. Units coming in from reserve may deploy through an Infinity Gate, using the Deep strike rules if it does so.
Robotic Commitment : Necron Warrior units in the army gain the Stubborn special rule but cannot use Reanimation Protocols. This rule applies even if the MCM is wrecked or destroyed
Automated Replenishment : Necron Warriors units that embark on the MCM through the Infinity Gate add D3 Warriors to the unit. This cannot take the unit above starting size.
Mission Focus : The MCM has its own sensor arrays that capture gigantic amounts of information as well as receiving information from every Necron model about the battle and battlefield. From this, the MCM determines the optimum roles for each unit. Prior to Deployment, the Necron Player rolls a D3 and nominates that many non vehicle units as troop choices. Normal FOC restrictions apply.
Sensor Analysis : The MCM, plus all units within 6", have the Interceptor, Skyfire and Night Vision special rules.
Coordinated Defence : The MCM can shoot each weapon at a different target.
Generated Camouflage : The MCM is covered with adaptive panels, enabling the MCM to blend into the scenery. The MCM has the shrouded special rule.
Options:
May replace Gauss Flayers with Tesla Destructors....40pts
May replace Particle Whip with Death Ray.....50 pts
May take ghost beacon...5pts
Ghost Beacon:
Friendly units that deep strike within 18" of a model with a ghost beacon do not scatter.
Imo I prefer how Matt Kingsley did it, because it can sacrifice fire for the benefit of the whole army, and I like the name Infinity Gate. However I don't think the flux arcs should be able to fire all over the place if they have interceptor AND skyfire because otherwise no-one will DS within 24" or bring 2+ flyers and get bored of playing it. MarkCron somehow I don't think a Death ray or Tesla Destructors was the right idea, tbh I would leave the weapon alone in terms of buffing it, though if we did the Doomsday cannon would be more suitable because its just a better blast weapon
Also... Realised I made a mistake with the scarabs, should be for every 2 unsaved wounds caused.
Actually, maybe I should simplify it... And make it for every unit the scarabs destroy in combat, the units regains 2D6 wounds, with excess wounds turnin into scarab bases.
I don't think @Mit was referring to the Gauss Interceptors, he was referring to the build I posted which had Flayers but a special rule giving Skyfire and Interceptor.
I appreciate that we don't want to create OP units, but the problem with the build we have is that most people won't play it, because of the whole hull points thing. Getting 300 points of HQ wiped out turn 1 by a squad of tacs in a drop pod with melta isn't that attractive. Sure, I know that we can counter-deploy to prevent that, but even so it's a big risk.
Looking at it again, there is a big disadvantage if it dies, because not only do you lose 300 pts a big chunk of the rest of the army becomes useless or downright dangerous. How about:
a) Just allow Wraiths and Pariahs as troops choices (so similar to being able to take terminators as troops)
b) Warriors converted to Warrior Drones (similar to Anrakyr with Immortals)
c) If the MCM dies, Warrior Drones must head to nearest objective and GTG.
I like the Ghost Beacon name and idea, but in reality not sure how much use it will get. The only things that we have that are likely to DS are Deathmarks and Flayed ones. I wouldn't give up the whip for that.
... this is getting pretty close to OP, guys.
Let's scale it back a bit.
I REALLY don't think Scarabs should be scoring. It just doesn't feel right. I'm even kinda torn on Wraiths and Spyders. Let's just stick to Warriors (remember, balance means nerfs as well as buffs. Perhaps the downside to using an MCM as your HQ is that you're limited to just Warriors for troops... but the Warriors have Stubborn and Fearless, so that's not so bad!)
Mission Focus: I like the idea of an AI collecting tons of info to use to its strategic advantage, but using it to make non-troops into troops just seems like it doesn't fit. Perhaps granting it some kind of Creed-like power would work better. (like redeployment after set up, akin to Grand Illusion, or Reserve rerolls, or maybe even first turn deep strike, so long as the deep striking unit can only do so on your side of the table... I have this image of Creed playing chess against DeepBlue, and both of them being frustrated at not being able to out strategize each other).
Perhaps giving it offensive and defensive powers that it has to choose between each turn to use might be a good expression of the MCM's ability (similar to IG Orders/RipTide charging. You can do A this turn to increase offensive capabilities, but it will leave you more vulnerable to attack, or you could do B this turn to increase defensive protocols, but that will significantly lessen offensive power, etc.).
And it should DEFINITELY not have the option to replace its weapons with Tesla Destructors or Deathrays!
We've got Sentry Pylons for that, the MCM doesn't have to be a juggernaut as well as a strategic powerhouse.
It probably should have IWND, though.
Basically, think about it like this: Skynet should be incredibly tough and resilient, but not the actual thing causing the damage. Its role is to DIRECT those things that will be doing the damage by using its vast reserves of information and computing power.
Think less "oh #$%&! Here it comes! We're all going to die!" and more "oh great, they've got a Control Monolith. We've gotta get rid of that thing if we want any chance of defeating this army... unfortunately for us, it's basically a heavily fortified self aware super computer... this is not going to be easy..."
I would agree with no Wraiths/Spyders/Scarab troops, but Pariahs could be because they aren't outright killy units more the supporters. IWND would work. I think the Ghost Beacon can be a good upgrade if we used @Matt's idea of using the infinity gate to put units in DS reserve.
For Mission Focus (we could do with re-writing the name it sounds like Vanilla Marines or Eldar or Tau) I'd say one a turn: either modify friendly reserve rolls, redeploy units like Grand Illusion, or raid its databanks for information about a foe which it transfers to a unit giving PE or something because they know how they work (that may be a tad OP)
but keep it logical and not 
anyway, I reckon a Triarch Adjudicator would work, infact I wrote rules and fluff for one on another thread, but 2.0 has so many 
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