Basically managed to get this today, really excited and it looks and even smells awesome. It's 11pm here in the UK and I've been with this all day, if you have any questions please feel free to fire away but bare in mind I'll only be on for another hour or so, although I'll happily answer more tomorrow.



I'm thinking Raven Guard but the Ultramarines traits are fantastic.

Any major fluff changes or additions that you could see?

Overall, does it have a broader focus than the previous book? Do other Chapters get more fluff and such?

Do black templars keep 2special weaps for 5 man?

Troike:

It's a very broad focus, it covers all of the first foundings and notable successors in seperate decent sized sections. It covers a good spectrum with good detail, also the creation/maintaining of space marines is also expanded.

Phatonic:

No, only one Initiate can carry a special weapon, one may carry a heavy weapon and one can carry a power weapon/fist.

Although a sword brother (sargeant) can take items from the melee/ranged items section.

Time to remodel mah termies...

hey hi,
nice of you to give some answers, i'm sure it will help anxiety and lower the blood pressure of many people...
I didn't follow the huge threads about the upcoming release so maybe it is already known,
Did the landspeeders(aside from the storm getting DT) change in cost.?
I also heard that techmarines and MOTF got excluded from the foc (as in they don't use one slot) is that true?
Thanks a lot for your time....

 krados wrote:
hey hi,
nice of you to give some answers, i'm sure it will help anxiety and lower the blood pressure of many people...
I didn't follow the huge threads about the upcoming release so maybe it is already known,
Did the landspeeders(aside from the storm getting DT) change in cost.?
I also heard that techmarines and MOTF got excluded from the foc (as in they don't use one slot) is that true?
Thanks a lot for your time....

Base cost is the same, same options as before, Assault cannon upgrade is now 10pts cheaper, typhoon upgrade is 15pts cheaper, the other options are the same. (*compared against army builder providing those are correct.)

Also from what I understand the MotF does take up the slot, but for every other HQ in your army you may take a Techmarine that does not take up a slot.

I think a lot of people were curious to see if there was any fluff about the Tau, and why Spess Mahreens are Battle Brothers with them now.

Thanks a lot for sharing! Could you please tell me if the librarian in terminator armor can still take a Storm shield? I would hate to have to remodel mine...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I think a lot of people were curious to see if there was any fluff about the Tau, and why Spess Mahreens are Battle Brothers with them now.

I haven't read the fluff section extensively, but as of yet I've seen no mention as to the relationship between Tau/SM, I'll take a look and get back to you on this, I was more aiming for rules queries to be honest.


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 ectoplastic wrote:
Thanks a lot for sharing! Could you please tell me if the librarian in terminator armor can still take a Storm shield? I would hate to have to remodel mine...

Yes he can still take a storm shield in Terminator Armour, and for 5pts cheaper than before (I don't think it's okies for me to post actual points values so I hope that helps)

The question came up in a different thread, so what equipment can the Command Squad vets actually take?

With regards to a white scars army, does a captain on bike make one or all bike squads onto troops?

 Shadox wrote:
The question came up in a different thread, so what equipment can the Command Squad vets actually take?

This is taken from the army building section at the back.

One veteran may take a company standard or a standard of the emperor ascendant.
One may be upgraded to a Company Champion (gets a power weapon and a combat shield)
One may be upgraded to an apothecary (gets narthecium)
Entire squad can be equipped with bikes.
Any veteran may take: Meltabombs or Storm Shields
Any veteran may replace his bolt pistol/chainsword for a bolter/bolt pistol
Any veteran may take items from the melee and or ranged weapons lists. (Ranged = storm bolter, combi weapons, grav/plasma pistols or Melee = Power weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer)


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 edbradders wrote:
With regards to a white scars army, does a captain on bike make one or all bike squads onto troops?

He makes all bike squads into troops instead of fast attack for that detachment provided the bike squad is at least five models strong.

Are Storm Landspeeders dedicated transports for Scouts as reported?

thanks for the quick answer,
As for point cost,yeah i think you are just vague enough any clearer than that might get the thread closed or GW might dispatch a quick response team to your location.
As for Stormshield librairian i was almost hoping you'd say no,even tough i want one and got all the bitz for it(I got one of those sweet stormshields from CH, would have been a shame to put it on a ``lesser man``), it is still not assembled,so that would have been an upside to my slow work...
Ther isn't many of those.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Are Storm Landspeeders dedicated transports for Scouts as reported?

Yes they are, Landspeeder Storms are also 5pts cheaper and come with the same equipment.

 Rysaer wrote:
Any veteran may take items from the melee and or ranged weapons lists. (Special weapons etc., doesn't seem to be a limit but the book is not well laid out for this)

So Special Weapons are on the Ranged Weapon list then or do they have their on list (which the Command Squad would not have access to)?

Thank you for doing this btw!

Nice, I didn't so much doubt the rumour, but it makes me rest a little easier to have it confirmed, especially as I brought a second one last week.

For Shadox:

I just updated the post, I've found the section now.

The Ranged/Melee in the start of the book labels everything, there is a shortlist near the army building section which lists this:

Ranged = storm bolter, combi weapons, grav/plasma pistols

Melee = Power weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer

Sorry about that Shadox I'm still getting used to the format etc, hopefully my next answers will be clearer off the bat

Can the new aa-rhinos shoot at ground units or are they just like space marine hydras?

tommse wrote:
Can the new aa-rhinos shoot at ground units or are they just like space marine hydras?

I assume you mean the Hunter/Stalkers?

They do not have Interceptor, so they can only shoot at ground units as snap shots I believe (they only have skyfire.)

 Rysaer wrote:
For Shadox:

I just updated the post, I've found the section now.

The Ranged/Melee in the start of the book labels everything, there is a shortlist near the army building section which lists this:

Ranged = storm bolter, combi weapons, grav/plasma pistols

Melee = Power weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer

Ah thank you, so no Meltaguns for them...
They now seem just to be a poor imitation of the Sternguard who does not fill a foc-slot.

 Shadox wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
For Shadox:

I just updated the post, I've found the section now.

The Ranged/Melee in the start of the book labels everything, there is a shortlist near the army building section which lists this:

Ranged = storm bolter, combi weapons, grav/plasma pistols

Melee = Power weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer

Ah thank you, so no Meltaguns for them...
They now seem just to be a poor imitation of the Sternguard who does not fill a foc-slot.

No but you could get them Combi-Meltas I guess if you wanted but if thats the case, you are right to just take sternguard instead.

Do Thunderfires actually have barrage now?

How well written is it?

Are there any initial issues with internal balance you can see.

 tomjoad wrote:
Do Thunderfires actually have barrage now?

Yes all 3 firing modes have Barrage in their profile.


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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How well written is it?

Are there any initial issues with internal balance you can see.

It's fairly well written, although it can be badly laid out in some areas, particularly wargear.

In terms of balance I wouldn't like to say without trying it on the table, in terms of the units and costs everything seems fairly costed and not much has changed for units from the previous SM book, the Hunter/Stalker and the Centurions look to be quite fair and not too overpowered but without trying them out, I've no real comment, I'll hopefully get a game in asap and get back to you on that.

I got the book too, I'll be on for a bit if you guys got questions

 Ravenous D wrote:
I got the book too, I'll be on for a bit if you guys got questions

Thanks thats great timing, as it is now 01:00am here and I need to be up for work at 06:00am.

I'll be around all day later on guys, so if you post anything up I'll try to answer as soon as I possibly can.

Do vanilla marines have access to power field generators, displacer fields, or conversion fields?

Also can their grenade launchers fire rad and stasis grenades?

Grndhog89 wrote:
Do vanilla marines have access to power field generators, displacer fields, or conversion fields?

Also can their grenade launchers fire rad and stasis grenades?

I haven't seen anything like that in the book. There is the standard astartes grenade launcher but it only fires frag and krak as per normal.

Centurions being S5 and T5 is a bit of a burn to Oblits

Do Tactical Squads have access to heavy flamers?

Do Assault Squads still have access to Storm Shields?

TYVM

Syphid wrote:
Do Tactical Squads have access to heavy flamers?

Do Assault Squads still have access to Storm Shields?

Only Sternguard and LotD can take Heavy Flamers.

Assault squads cannot take storm shields, however the sarge can take a combat shield.

However vanguard vets can take Storm Shields.

How are the chapter traits looking?

That is dissapointing, no Heavy Flamers for TAC Squads , in regards to Tactical Marines can a x5 man TAC Squad take a Drop Pod now?

Also how many points are Combi-Grav weapons for Sternguard?

And are Thunderfire Cannons on top of being Barrage Weapons (which is amazing BTW!) still relentless?

 Rysaer wrote:

 edbradders wrote:
With regards to a white scars army, does a captain on bike make one or all bike squads onto troops?

He makes all bike squads into troops instead of fast attack for that detachment provided the bike squad is at least five models strong.

Last I checked only Khan did that, as Captains (and Chapter Masters) could only unlock one unit.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How are the chapter traits looking?

Exactly the last batch of rumours said they were.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How are the chapter traits looking?

Ultramarines:
All doctrines are 1 use per game trait:
Tactical doctrine - all models in detachment reroll 1s, tactical squads reroll all misses
Assault doctrine - all units in detachment reroll charge distance, assault/bike/attack squads get fleet (even though bikes cant run...)
Devastator doctrine - all models reroll snap shots including overwatch, devastator squads have overwatch, unless they disembarked that turn

wait for more

White scars:
Born in the saddle: auto pass dangerous terrain tests on a bike, +1 jink, +1S on hammer of wrath

Fight on the move: all models (except termies, centurions) have hit and run.

Imperial fists:
Bolter drill - rerolls all 1s with bolter weapons, does not apply to special ammo

Siege masters - dev squads and dev centurions have tank hunter and add +1 to building pen table.

Black Templars:
accept any challenge: characters in challenges re roll hits and have rending

crusaders: all models have crusader and adamantium will, and can use crusader squads

Iron hands
the flesh is weak: 6+ feel no pain

machine empathy: all vehicles have 'it will not die' and all techmarines and masters of the forge add +1 to blessings of the omnissiah

Salamanders:
Flamecraft: rerolls saves against flamer weapons, and reroll wounds and armour pen with flamers

master artisans: characters can master 1 weapon for free

Ravenguard:
Strike from the shadows -All models have scout, and non bulky and very bulky models have stealth on turn 1.

wing deliverance - Jump infantry can use their packs for both movement and assault and reroll wounds for hammer of wrath


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 gmaleron wrote:
That is dissapointing, no Heavy Flamers for TAC Squads , in regards to Tactical Marines can a x5 man TAC Squad take a Drop Pod now?

Also how many points are Combi-Grav weapons for Sternguard?

And are Thunderfire Cannons on top of being Barrage Weapons (which is amazing BTW!) still relentless?

Not relentless

and all combis are 10pts each

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How are the chapter traits looking?

Excellent.

Ultramarines can use three traits in one game, Tactical, Assault and Devestator, they can only use one a turn and each trait an only be used once per game. Tactical allows all models to reroll (1's) and tacticals to get proper rerolls. Assault allows rerolling charge range and fleet. Devestator allows rerolling to hit on snap shots (including OW) and devestators get relentless.

Salamanders get rerolls on the usual weapons they are famed for and their characters can master craft weapons.

Raven Guard get stealth for the first turn and their units get scout and can use their assault packs to move in the assault phase, and can re roll failed to wounds on HoW.

Imperial fists get (1's) with bolt weapons, All devestators get tank hunter including cent ones.

White scars get hit and run, automatically pass DT tests, +1 to jink saves and +1 Strength to HoW attacks.

Iron hands get feel no pain 6+ and characters/vehicles get It will not die.

Templars get crusader and adamantium will, also reroll to hits in challenges and rending in challenges.

Not relentless

and all combis are 10pts each

Dang, they were relentless in the last book, looks like no Thunderfire Cannons in Drop Pods anymore

Also, can Space Marine TAC Squads of x5 take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport?

 gmaleron wrote:

Not relentless

and all combis are 10pts each

Dang, they were relentless in the last book, looks like no Thunderfire Cannons in Drop Pods anymore

Also, can Space Marine TAC Squads of x5 take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport?

Yup, no restriction on model count

Okies I'm done for now, good luck Ravenous D

 Rysaer wrote:
Okies I'm done for now, good luck Ravenous D

Ill go easy on him , sorry another random question did Drop Pods point costs change? And did the Deathwind Launcher Stats or Points change?

Also putting this out there:

5 man bike squad with 2 grav guns (3 shots each) and a combi grav gun (3 more shots) is 150pts.




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 gmaleron wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
Okies I'm done for now, good luck Ravenous D

Ill go easy on him , sorry another random question did Drop Pods point costs change? And did the Deathwind Launcher Stats or Points change?

Same cost, deathwind is 15pts range 12 s5 ap- large blast

how much do termies cost?

xruslanx wrote:
how much do termies cost?

same as before, TH/SS termies are 5pts higher

A few questions about salamanders, Rysear said they get twinlink on their famed weapons soo...does that include melta weapons too?(or do you need vulkan for these)
As for characters mastercrafting weapons...is it all characters(not only IC)?
Can they mastercraft melee and/or ranged weapons?
thanks

This is awesome dude, can any new units take Drop Pods as dedicated transports?

And how many points is a Veteran for a Command Squad? And all the upgrades for any characters (such as an apothecary) for the squad.

Did Razorbacks get more expensive, like they did in DA?

 krados wrote:
A few questions about salamanders, Rysear said they get twinlink on their famed weapons soo...does that include melta weapons too?(or do you need vulkan for these)
As for characters mastercrafting weapons...is it all characters(not only IC)?
Can they mastercraft melee and/or ranged weapons?
thanks

Melta is Vulkans rule he gives salamanders

it just says 'each character'

Doesn't mention it so I assume yes

Are TFCs cheaper?
Is Pedro in the codex and does he make Sterns Troops or scoring?

gmaleron wrote:This is awesome dude, can any new units take Drop Pods as dedicated transports?

And how many points is a Veteran for a Command Squad? And all the upgrades for any characters (such as an apothecary) for the squad.

thundfire cannons can take drop pods
100pts for 5 vets. and 15 for each to start

minigun762 wrote:Did Razorbacks get more expensive, like they did in DA?

razorbacks are 55pts base and all the options are 20pts (Heavy flamer is free)

What's the wounds and attacks statistics of centurions and what's their fluff justification?

Do Templars keep their own position on the allies matrix or do they use the vanilla Marine one now?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Are TFCs cheaper?
Is Pedro in the codex and does he make Sterns Troops or scoring?

Same price

Pedro is there and stern guard are still scoring, not troops


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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
What's the wounds and attacks statistics of centurions and what's their fluff justification?

They found them and finally got the green light and nearly every chapter has them now.

1 attack, 2 wounds


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 Troike wrote:
Do Templars keep their own position on the allies matrix or do they use the vanilla Marine one now?

says in the designer note that they follow codex space marine now

 Ravenous D wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:
Do Templars keep their own position on the allies matrix or do they use the vanilla Marine one now?

says in the designer note that they follow codex space marine now

Was typing up this exact question a few seconds ago, BT Allies here I come!

How do Vanguard's value compare to standard Assault Marines?
Is one grossly better than the other point wise?

Quick question:

How much is artificer armour for captains/chapter masters?
do bikes upgrades still cost the same for them?

Thanks!

 Ravenous D wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Are TFCs cheaper?
Is Pedro in the codex and does he make Sterns Troops or scoring?

Same price

Pedro is there and stern guard are still scoring, not troops


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 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
What's the wounds and attacks statistics of centurions and what's their fluff justification?

They found them and finally got the green light and nearly every chapter has them now.

1 attack, 2 wounds


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 Troike wrote:
Do Templars keep their own position on the allies matrix or do they use the vanilla Marine one now?

says in the designer note that they follow codex space marine now

Thanks.

How much points are the bikers? I heard they are 21 points or so.


How cheap is the Hunter/Stalker? around whirlwind price?

What's your favorite day of the week?

How are Captains shaping up? Do they have any use besides making bikes scoring and being a mediocre HQ?

Are the centurion units allowed any dedicated transport options? Thanks.

1.) What wargear does MOTF have access to?
2.) Which units get to take chapter relics?
3.) Can honor guard still take auxiliary grenade launchers?

How do Vanguard Veteran weapon upgrades compare in cost to the 5ed book? Are they the same as the DA book? (Sure hope not...)

What are the effects of banners?

ansacs wrote:Are the centurion units allowed any dedicated transport options? Thanks.

Land raiders

Korros wrote:1.) What wargear does MOTF have access to?
2.) Which units get to take chapter relics?
3.) Can honor guard still take auxiliary grenade launchers?

1) He can take ranged, melee, special issue wargear and chapter relics, can replace the servo harness with a conversion beamer, and take a power axe.
2) ICs, and the banner bearers can take the banner.
3) Doesn't look like it


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 AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
What are the effects of banners?

Standard of the emperor ascendant:
friendly units within 12" reroll morale and pinning, have hatred, fear and adds +1 to combat res.

chapter banner is the same but adds +1 attack instead of combat res, and does not have fear and hatred


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minigun762 wrote:How do Vanguard's value compare to standard Assault Marines?
Is one grossly better than the other point wise?

Assault marines are 17pts base and can drop the packs for a rhino or drop pod for free

vanguard are 19pts base, any can take weapons from the melee list (so 15pt power weapons, 25pt fists)
NO discount for removing packs.

Largo39 wrote:Quick question:

How much is artificer armour for captains/chapter masters?
do bikes upgrades still cost the same for them?

Thanks!

20pts for both armour and bikes for both characters

Tiger9gamer wrote:How much points are the bikers? I heard they are 21 points or so.


How cheap is the Hunter/Stalker? around whirlwind price?

What's your favorite day of the week?

21 is the number for bikes

65pt whirl winds, hunter is 70pts, and stalker is 75pts

FRIDAY

TheCustomLime wrote:How are Captains shaping up? Do they have any use besides making bikes scoring and being a mediocre HQ?

They are pretty bog standard, 90pts base and access to stuff and unlock bike troops, that's about it.

Mind you I say again, 5 bikes with 2 grav guns and 1 combi grav is 150pts, that's 9 shots that wound on armour with ap2 concussive.


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 dracpanzer wrote:
How do Vanguard Veteran weapon upgrades compare in cost to the 5ed book? Are they the same as the DA book? (Sure hope not...)

Sadly vanguard are still expensive and heroic intervention is craptastic.


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Here's a quick list:
Khan
6x6 man bike w/2 grav guns and 1 combi grav
3x3 man bike w/2 grav guns and 1 combi grav

1500pts

Army has scout, ignores dangerous terrain, hit and run, adds +1s to hammer of wrath.

Someone asked about bike costs. I too had heard they were 21 points per, is that accurate?

What about base costs? Are they the same as CSM or DA, or somewhere in between?

You mentioned that 5 guys w/ 2 grav guns and combi-grav was 150. I was trying to work backwards, but I'm unsure how much grav guns are. Combi-grav is probably 10, so 140. Grav rifles are maybe 15? Rumors seem to put them at 15. That would place bikes at around 110 for 5, which would put their cost around 20 pts per bike with a base cost around 70. Is that more or less accurate?

If so, I will be very pleased at the price drop on bikes. I'll definitely have fun with squads of 7 or fewer bikes flying around with trip grav, trip plas, trip melta, and trip flamer for under 200 points. Maybe quad if I get uppity and add an IC.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Ninja'd on the per bike cost, but still wondering about that base cost for the 3 bike unit. Hopefully it's in line with C:CSM.

Edit: NM

I am curious as to how the salamanders fluff has changed... does it actually say they have no successors and are an oversized chapter now?

 Ravenous D wrote:
Sadly vanguard are still expensive and heroic intervention is craptastic.

Sad to hear it, though it does fly in the face of everyone thinking GW powers up a unit just to sell it. I was actually hoping that the "conventional wisdom" was right this time. Good source of weapon bits for conversion/character work. By "no discount for removing packs" did you mean that they still don't get a free or reduced transport like ASM do?

Did the cost of Honor Guard with packs go down? Still hoping that I might be able to use some form of jump packers with my Raven Guard.

How much is the plain bike squad (sergeant + 2 bikers)?

Regards

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
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 Troike wrote:
Do Templars keep their own position on the allies matrix or do they use the vanilla Marine one now?

says in the designer note that they follow codex space marine now

Was typing up this exact question a few seconds ago, BT Allies here I come!

Oh damnation, now I have to buy a Sisters of Battle detachment to go with my Templars.

ITT everyone asks about things we've known about for 2-3 weeks.

Can Honour Guard take Drop Pods?

How about Librarians? Do they still have access to Terminator armor? Do they have to roll on random powers chart now?

 Ravenous D wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
How are the chapter traits looking?

Ultramarines:
All doctrines are 1 use per game trait:
Tactical doctrine - all models in detachment reroll 1s, tactical squads reroll all misses
Assault doctrine - all units in detachment reroll charge distance, assault/bike/attack squads get fleet (even though bikes cant run...)
Devastator doctrine - all models reroll snap shots including overwatch, devastator squads have overwatch, unless they disembarked that turn

wait for more

White scars:
Born in the saddle: auto pass dangerous terrain tests on a bike, +1 jink, +1S on hammer of wrath

Fight on the move: all models (except termies, centurions) have hit and run.

Imperial fists:
Bolter drill - rerolls all 1s with bolter weapons, does not apply to special ammo

Siege masters - dev squads and dev centurions have tank hunter and add +1 to building pen table.

Black Templars:
accept any challenge: characters in challenges re roll hits and have rending

crusaders: all models have crusader and adamantium will, and can use crusader squads

Iron hands
the flesh is weak: 6+ feel no pain

machine empathy: all vehicles have 'it will not die' and all techmarines and masters of the forge add +1 to blessings of the omnissiah

Salamanders:
Flamecraft: rerolls saves against flamer weapons, and reroll wounds and armour pen with flamers

master artisans: characters can master 1 weapon for free

Ravenguard:
Strike from the shadows -All models have scout, and non bulky and very bulky models have stealth on turn 1.

wing deliverance - Jump infantry can use their packs for both movement and assault and reroll wounds for hammer of wrath


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 gmaleron wrote:
That is dissapointing, no Heavy Flamers for TAC Squads , in regards to Tactical Marines can a x5 man TAC Squad take a Drop Pod now?

Also how many points are Combi-Grav weapons for Sternguard?

And are Thunderfire Cannons on top of being Barrage Weapons (which is amazing BTW!) still relentless?

Not relentless

and all combis are 10pts each

This is like a kick (the second after the codex) to the groin for CSM players. I might just buy this for the counts as opportunities.

Aside from the triple grav bike squad, are there any other powerful combo's you can see?

Is there any information in the Dex on Blood Ravens?

Can Sternguards take Heavy Bolter or Stormbolters with Special Issue Ammunition, or do they still only work with normal Bolters?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How about Librarians? Do they still have access to Terminator armor? Do they have to roll on random powers chart now?

Yes they can still take TA, they can only access the basic BRB lores, but they cannot take from divination, I believe they can take from the rest (Bio, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyro.)

Tigirius can take from all of the BRB lores and can re-roll when selecting his spells. (Mastery lvl 3)

Saw something about the ECs stances only working in Challenges; is this true and if so how does he work outside challenges?

Puscifer wrote:
Is there any information in the Dex on Blood Ravens?

*Update*
There is a section with chapters with unknown geneseeds/parents, but I've only flicked through it briefly, it doesn't detail them as far as I can tell at all.


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daisho wrote:
Can Sternguards take Heavy Bolter or Stormbolters with Special Issue Ammunition, or do they still only work with normal Bolters?

As far as I am aware it is still only for Bolters, haven't seen anything to say it works with heavy/storm.

What units on foot can take heavy famers besides sternguard?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Saw something about the ECs stances only working in Challenges; is this true and if so how does he work outside challenges?

In combat he has two stances. You do not need to take a EC as mandatory anymore as far as I can tell. He also has Black Templars Chapter Tactics, Fearless and Independant Character.

Slay the Unclean - +2S but Black Sword becomes 2 handed and unwieldy.
Slay the Heretic - Rolls to wound of 6's are Instant Death

Also for some other questions:

Honour Guard can take drop pods as dedicated transports.



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 stargasm wrote:
What units on foot can take heavy famers besides sternguard?

Covered this one already I think, but only Sternguard and LotD may take Heavy Flamers.

My bad! saw the tactical squad with HF in WD and got all excited. Thanks!

 stargasm wrote:
My bad! saw the tactical squad with HF in WD and got all excited. Thanks!

No problem , happy to be helping battle brothers where I can.

There is a small indicator next to the Heavy Flamer in the wargear section, that indicator is listed at the bottom as Sternguard/LotD only. That is definetly the case, as I have just double checked. Tacticals cannot access Heavy Flamers. :(

Is it possible to take terminators as troops?

Do Dreadnoughts have the ability to change their CCW into more things than a ML or Autocannon? (I.e. Mortis Dreadnoughts)

Rustgob wrote:
Is it possible to take terminators as troops?

Do Dreadnoughts have the ability to change their CCW into more things than a ML or Autocannon? (I.e. Mortis Dreadnoughts)

No and no.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Rustgob wrote:
Is it possible to take terminators as troops?

Do Dreadnoughts have the ability to change their CCW into more things than a ML or Autocannon? (I.e. Mortis Dreadnoughts)

No and no.

Incredibly lame. :[

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Rustgob wrote:
Is it possible to take terminators as troops?

Do Dreadnoughts have the ability to change their CCW into more things than a ML or Autocannon? (I.e. Mortis Dreadnoughts)

No and no.

The lack of Mortis style dreads didn't upset me as much as I thought it would, I think it's just I'm so used to the FW one and the fact that I love my Mortis model only helps

 Rysaer wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How about Librarians? Do they still have access to Terminator armor? Do they have to roll on random powers chart now?

Yes they can still take TA, they can only access the basic BRB lores, but they cannot take from divination, I believe they can take from the rest (Bio, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyro.)

Tigirius can take from all of the BRB lores and can re-roll when selecting his spells. (Mastery lvl 3)

Is Tigirius at the same cost?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How about Librarians? Do they still have access to Terminator armor? Do they have to roll on random powers chart now?

Yes they can still take TA, they can only access the basic BRB lores, but they cannot take from divination, I believe they can take from the rest (Bio, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyro.)

Tigirius can take from all of the BRB lores and can re-roll when selecting his spells. (Mastery lvl 3)

Is Tigirius at the same cost?

I do not currently have the old book with me but I can tell you that Tigirius is worth: Ledyba's Pokedex Number. (I actually can't state points of units etc as it breaks the rules, hopefully you know what I mean)

Did vanguard vets lose the ability to charge after deep strike?
I remember seeing it as a rumour, but I haven't seen it confirmed...Unless it was/n't and I just missed it

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Did vanguard vets lose the ability to charge after deep strike?
I remember seeing it as a rumour, but I haven't seen it confirmed...Unless it was/n't and I just missed it

Yes, they lost it.

Are vanguard Fast Attack of Elites? Are they effectively assault marines with an extra attack and more wargear, or do they have any special rules?

 stargasm wrote:
Are vanguard Fast Attack of Elites? Are they effectively assault marines with an extra attack and more wargear, or do they have any special rules?

They are elites, and yes they are effectively assualt marines with better wargear options and another attack. they do have a special rule that allows them to remove the penalty for disordered charging and to auto pass initiative checks for glorious intervention.

 Rysaer wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How about Librarians? Do they still have access to Terminator armor? Do they have to roll on random powers chart now?

Yes they can still take TA, they can only access the basic BRB lores, but they cannot take from divination, I believe they can take from the rest (Bio, Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyro.)

Tigirius can take from all of the BRB lores and can re-roll when selecting his spells. (Mastery lvl 3)

Is Tigirius at the same cost?

I do not currently have the old book with me but I can tell you that Tigirius is worth: Ledyba's Pokedex Number. (I actually can't state points of units etc as it breaks the rules, hopefully you know what I mean)

Thanks. Its fine.
I have read that Centurions don't come with an inv save like Oblits. Is this true?

Okay, we're back to asking the same things over and over that have been known for weeks. I'm out.

What is the armour of the stalker and hunter?

Centurions do not have an Invulnerable and I can't see any way to get them one besides psykers etc. (I'll double check.)

The Stalkers and Hunters are 12/12/10 off the top of my head but I'll double check this also (I shouldn't be online just now, so I'm nipping in and out to check stuff.).

 Rysaer wrote:
Centurions do not have an Invulnerable and I can't see any way to get them one besides psykers etc. (I'll double check.)

The Stalkers and Hunters are 12/12/10 off the top of my head but I'll double check this also (I shouldn't be online just now, so I'm nipping in and out to check stuff.).

So its more than the plain Rhino chassis.

Tigirius seems to be a good bet in a new SM army.

Are Landspeeders the same as in the old 'dex (squadrons, pt costs for weapon upgrades)?

Are the flyers (Stormraven and -talon) part of the 'dex?

Do Raven Guard non-dedicated transport vehicles benefit from the Chapter Trait? Can I haz scouting Vindicators for example?

Tell us about the Honour Guard. Are they really as cheap as rumoured and what options they have? Is there any reason to ever use Command Squads over Honour Guard if you have access to the latter?

 AtoMaki wrote:
Do Raven Guard non-dedicated transport vehicles benefit from the Chapter Trait? Can I haz scouting Vindicators for example?

No, vehicles do not benefit from Chapter Tactics unless otherwise noted.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Do Raven Guard non-dedicated transport vehicles benefit from the Chapter Trait? Can I haz scouting Vindicators for example?

No, vehicles do not benefit from Chapter Tactics unless otherwise noted.

Oh... That's sad.

Thank you anyway !

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
Centurions do not have an Invulnerable and I can't see any way to get them one besides psykers etc. (I'll double check.)

The Stalkers and Hunters are 12/12/10 off the top of my head but I'll double check this also (I shouldn't be online just now, so I'm nipping in and out to check stuff.).

So its more than the plain Rhino chassis.

Tigirius seems to be a good bet in a new SM army.

Are Landspeeders the same as in the old 'dex (squadrons, pt costs for weapon upgrades)?

Are the flyers (Stormraven and -talon) part of the 'dex?

I've covered those two questions already but I'll give you the short version here, storm raven and talon are both in this book with the same rules as the death from the skies book I believe.

Landspeeders are the same but cost for weapons is different, they are listed in a post on the first page.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Tell us about the Honour Guard. Are they really as cheap as rumoured and what options they have? Is there any reason to ever use Command Squads over Honour Guard if you have access to the latter?

Honour guard have a veteran stat line, max squad of 10, minimum of 3, any honour guard may change his power weapon (default) for a relic blade, one may take either a company banner or the standard of the emperor ascendant, champion can relpace his boltgun with a ccw, or replace his power weapon with a thunder hammer. Honour guard can take drop pods, rhinos and razors as dedicated transports.

Squads base cost (2 honour guard and a champion) is the pokedex number for a Dodrio. Each additional Honour guard will cost you the pokedex number for Pikachu (I can't post costs, so this is my system, just google 'Pokedex number 'XX') you'll get what you need

As for Command squads I mostly answered this earlier:

This is taken from the army building section at the back.

One veteran may take a company standard or a standard of the emperor ascendant.
One may be upgraded to a Company Champion (gets a power weapon and a combat shield)
One may be upgraded to an apothecary (gets narthecium)
Entire squad can be equipped with bikes.
Any veteran may take: Meltabombs or Storm Shields
Any veteran may replace his bolt pistol/chainsword for a bolter/bolt pistol
Any veteran may take items from the melee and or ranged weapons lists. (Ranged = storm bolter, combi weapons, grav/plasma pistols or Melee = Power weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer)
May take a rhino, drop pod or razor as a dedicated transport.

Have a veteran stat line also but only come with BP/CCW's as standard.

Base squad cost (5 strong (seems to be the min/max number)) is the pokedex number for a Voltorb.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Centurions being S5 and T5 is a bit of a burn to Oblits

Chaos Space Marines and regular Space Marines are not analogous. This is a mistake a lot of people make. What one side has doesn't have a direct counterpart on the other side, and they aren't meant to. It's been that way for a long, long time. That's why Space Marines have Land Raider variants and chubby ugly looking gunships, and Chaos has Maulerfiends, Khornemowers and Hellturkeys.

I mean, we might as well complain that Centurions are a bit of a burn to Wraithguard because they have two wounds. It's basically the same thing. Taking two random units from two random armies.

I'd say the Centurians are more like Marine Broadsides if you wanted to compare. At least the Devastator ones.

Any changes to scouts (other than the dedidacted Landspeeder thing)?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


I mean, we might as well complain that Centurions are a bit of a burn to Wraithguard because they have two wounds. It's basically the same thing. Taking two random units from two random armies.

But they kind of are better oblits . same save , 2w , they trade a+5inv for not being forced to switch weapons and different weapons at the same time.
Oblits were one of the few things that was good in the csm and sm are kind of a 1 uping them on those.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh damnation, now I have to buy a Sisters of Battle detachment to go with my Templars.

I like how you think, I have a BT army that was made with vanilla marine elements (and played them that way on occasion) so sisters are looking good.
At least my Whirlwinds are official now, hazzah!

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Any changes to scouts (other than the dedidacted Landspeeder thing)?

Cheaper points and cheaper cloaks, just like DA.

Makumba wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


I mean, we might as well complain that Centurions are a bit of a burn to Wraithguard because they have two wounds. It's basically the same thing. Taking two random units from two random armies.

But they kind of are better oblits . same save , 2w , they trade a+5inv for not being forced to switch weapons and different weapons at the same time.
Oblits were one of the few things that was good in the csm and sm are kind of a 1 uping them on those.

Oblits get a power fist as well, which I don't think I've seen that Cents get. They also can deep strike, which is a major bonus, and can also take marks (so can get up to T6 and avoid ID. Also, whilst it's a matter of opinion, I actually prefer the flexibility of the changing weapons that Oblits have than the fixed loadout of Cents.

Without having seen the Cents in play yet, I'd still say that Oblits are superior for the ability to deep strike alone.

May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

(so can get up to T6 and avoid ID. Also, whilst it's a matter of opinion, I actually prefer the flexibility of the changing weapons that Oblits have than the fixed loadout of Cents.

oblits are t4 . they can get t5 if they take the mark of nurgle . Also what kind of a flexability is it when you need long range support and a cent shots his las and grav gun every turn while your oblit bounces of av14+ every other turn . They were good when they could chose what ever a weapon they wanted to use . Being forced to switch weapons at best slows the game down , when you re math on different weapons .

deep strike is also a bad option , they are no drop pods so can drop outside of melta range , for all other weapons it is better to be on the table from turn 1 and get more shots.

Am not going to comment on the power fists . Runing oblits as a melee unit makes no sense and the only units that will charge them are either tar pits , which don't care about fists or strong melee units which will kill them before they get to strike.

And let us not forget that centurions have two more thing better then oblits .chapter tactics and ATKNF . oblits are one of the few types of demons in the game that are not fearless.

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

2 questions:

How many howling griffon models are in the showcase section?

What's the range of grav cannons and what do grav amps do [other than have cool names]

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wonderful, thank you! May I also ask how much is the vet sergeant and what does he provide? - + 1 ld?

 sing your life wrote:
2 questions:

How many howling griffon models are in the showcase section?

What's the range of grav cannons and what do grav amps do [other than have cool names]

I could only find one howling griffon in the showcase (it's an apothecary model) and grav cannons are 24" range and the grav amp allows you to re-roll the to wound roll (or the dice for effect on vehicles).

Can Centurions take flak missiles? (Not that there would be much point as their other weapons probably can't get skyfire, right?)

Do Veteran Squads come with free Veteran Sergeant?

Is there anything stopping from arming Sergeant/ Command Squad members with two pistols (apart it being silly expensive)?

How exactly does Hunter's homing missile work?

So am I understanding Grav weapons correctly; sixes against vehicles take hull point AND immobilise, right? Does that mean that any additional sixes effectively take TWO hull points, as the vehicle is already immobilised?

 Crimson wrote:
Can Centurions take flak missiles? (Not that there would be much point as their other weapons probably can't get skyfire, right?)

Do Veteran Squads come with free Veteran Sergeant?

Is there anything stopping from arming Sergeant/ Command Squad members with two pistols (apart it being silly expensive)?

How exactly does Hunter's homing missile work?

So am I understanding Grav weapons correctly; sixes against vehicles take hull point AND immobilise, right? Does that mean that any additional sixes effectively take TWO hull points, as the vehicle is already immobilised?

1: No they cannot take flakk missiles. Only Frag and Krak.
2: Yes you always get a sergeant in every unit included in its base cost, as far as I can tell, Veterans definetly.
3: No, although yes it would be expensive.
4: If it misses a shot against a flyer or FMC you place a 'Savant Token' on the unit it tried to fire at, at the beginning of each subsequent shooting phase you roll a D6 for each token, on a 5+ the counter is removed and the target unit suffers a hit (on its rear armour) using the same profile as the standard weapon. If the target leaves combat airspace or is locked in close combat then you must discard any tokens on the unit, they cannot be removed by any other means.
5: Yes they would remove one hull point and immobilise on a roll of a 6, as far as I can tell if you were to roll a second six you would take another hull point of damage, but then becuase you are already immobilised you would then yes take another hull point of damage. (Until it is FAQ'd at least.)

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wow. Ravenwing just got nerfed hard by white scars. Granted they don't have black knights but their bikes are dirt cheap with the upgrades Kahn gives, awesome.

 Citizen Luka wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wonderful, thank you! May I also ask how much is the vet sergeant and what does he provide? - + 1 ld?

10pts for an extra attack and extra leadership. Sorry, I should have mentioned before that the bog standard Sergeant also only has 1A.

 namiel wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wow. Ravenwing just got nerfed hard by white scars. Granted they don't have black knights but their bikes are dirt cheap with the upgrades Kahn gives, awesome.

Yea, they did. Plus white scars would be tough with more bikes per squad and higher jink.

There is room for Allies though. White scars, say hello to the darkshroud! now your jink is 3+!

Also, Khan might be pretty cozy in a RW black knight squad, where his rumored Furious charge rules could help out quite a bit. Also, DA can bring a divination libby for pretty cheap.

So Savant Lock doesn't work against skimmers?

 Rysaer wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
2 questions:

How many howling griffon models are in the showcase section?

What's the range of grav cannons and what do grav amps do [other than have cool names]

I could only find one howling griffon in the showcase (it's an apothecary model) and grav cannons are 24" range and the grav amp allows you to re-roll the to wound roll (or the dice for effect on vehicles).

That's strange. I thought Cruddace would take the opportunity to plaster his HG collection everywhere.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wow. Ravenwing just got nerfed hard by white scars. Granted they don't have black knights but their bikes are dirt cheap with the upgrades Kahn gives, awesome.

Yea, they did. Plus white scars would be tough with more bikes per squad and higher jink.

There is room for Allies though. White scars, say hello to the darkshroud! now your jink is 3+!

Also, Khan might be pretty cozy in a RW black knight squad, where his rumored Furious charge rules could help out quite a bit. Also, DA can bring a divination libby for pretty cheap.

I was hoping the ravenwing would stay on top of the bike armies.....sigh. Bonus though I can use the decent bikes from the new sex to ally withmy da to use my stormtalon. After reading this and the battle report in the wd I have been thinking a squad of centurions with a Libby and a pfg might be a nasty combo

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Citizen Luka wrote:
May I ask has there been a point discount for the basic three man bike squad

Cheers

Bikes are 21pts each. Like most squads in the Codex now, the Veteran Sergeant is an optional upgrade, so the basic Sergeant is free and is Ld8. So in other words, 63pts for 3 Bikes starting out.

Wonderful, thank you! May I also ask how much is the vet sergeant and what does he provide? - + 1 ld?

10pts for an extra attack and extra leadership. Sorry, I should have mentioned before that the bog standard Sergeant also only has 1A.

Thanks Godless-Mimicry!

A few questions that have been bugging me:

1) How do grav weapons work against vehicles?
2) What is the profile for the stalkers cannons and the hunter's missile?
3) How many extra points are grav cannons on centurions?
4) are librarians the same as DA's for points?
5) What do the centurions' assault weapons do and are they worth it?

 DoomMouse wrote:
A few questions that have been bugging me:

1) How do grav weapons work against vehicles?
2) What is the profile for the stalkers cannons and the hunter's missile?
3) How many extra points are grav cannons on centurions?
4) are librarians the same as DA's for points?
5) What do the centurions' assault weapons do and are they worth it?

1) Roll a D6, on a roll of a 6 the vehicle suffers one hull point of damage and becomes immobilised.
2) Stalkers: 60" S7 AP4 Heavy 4. (Can be fire at a single target with twin linked or two seperate targets but at BS2)
Hunter: 60" S7 AP2 Armourbane (To see it's shooting rules see above posts)
3) Can't state points cost, so I'll use the system I've been using, the cost of a grav cannon with grav-amp (given with it) is Raticate's Pokedex number. (Everyone loves pokemon.)
4) Same points cost base.
5) They have two seige drills, which are S9 AP2 Armourbane Specialist Weapons. Up to you, I don't like the assault variety of centurions that much but thats preference and look I base that on.

Going to be expanding my preheresy imperial fists to accommodate a codex fist force and was wondering about how often those new traits can be used. Are they one use as in only say 1 dev squad gets tank hunter for a turn or as many dev squads you have get 1 turn of tank hunter?

 Rysaer wrote:

4: If it misses a shot against a flyer or FMC you place a 'Savant Token' on the unit it tried to fire at, at the beginning of each subsequent shooting phase you roll a D6 for each token, on a 5+ the counter is removed and the target unit suffers a hit (on its rear armour) using the same profile as the standard weapon. If the target leaves combat airspace or is locked in close combat then you must discard any tokens on the unit, they cannot be removed by any other means.

Made me giggle when I read in the WD what exactly the guidance system in these missiles was. Probably too much to hope for that there would be Savant Token markers on the sprue

valace2 wrote:
Going to be expanding my preheresy imperial fists to accommodate a codex fist force and was wondering about how often those new traits can be used. Are they one use as in only say 1 dev squad gets tank hunter for a turn or as many dev squads you have get 1 turn of tank hunter?

Everyone except Ultramarines have their traits for the entirety of the game (unless otherwise stated, for example Raven Guard only get stealth for the first turn). In your case Imperial Fist Devestators/Cent Devestators are Tank Hunters for the whole game.

Hope that makes sense.

#1 Are Crusader squads still a mix of 3+ and 4+ armor?
#2 What's the standard LD value of non-squad leader marines?
#3 Can you get two power weapons and a special weapon in a Crusader squad?

Thanks!

 minigun762 wrote:
#1 Are Crusader squads still a mix of 3+ and 4+ armor?
#2 What's the standard LD value of non-squad leader marines?
#3 Can you get two power weapons and a special weapon in a Crusader squad?

Thanks!

1) Yes they are still 3+/4+ mix.
2) Leadership 8 is the norm.
3) Yes, one initiate can take a heavy weapon, one can take a special weapon, one can take a powerweapon/fist and the sword brother (sergeant) can also take a power weapon (or fist etc).

Are terminator weapons mix and match now as opposed to the old shooty vs assault terminators?

Are there any vehicle upgrades or equipment?

valace2 wrote:
Are terminator weapons mix and match now as opposed to the old shooty vs assault terminators?

No, still assault and tactical terminator squads. TH/SS are now +5 points though, and the tactical terminator weapon options are cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
Are there any vehicle upgrades or equipment?

Same as the old book. Extra armor is cheaper though

I noticed the new sternguard box comes with enough stormbolters for all. Is there a reason you'd want to arm them that way that you can see?

Henshini wrote:
I noticed the new sternguard box comes with enough stormbolters for all. Is there a reason you'd want to arm them that way that you can see?

No not really if you would want that much Dakka the Command Squad is probably the better choice.
Btw the new box only comes with 2 SBs.

How much will Stalkers/Hunters ruin a FMC Daemons list?

Telion-still an upgrade, or an IC like the tau and eldar "scout" characthers?

 greg0985 wrote:
How much will Stalkers/Hunters ruin a FMC Daemons list?

How would the codex tellyou that?
People have given you the weapon profile and special rules, work it out yourself.

Can tac sarges (or vet sarges if upgradeable) take bolters?

In the section for Chapter Tactics, whats the owrding for if a Succesor Chapter has an unknown founding or don't know which chapter that they are a successor of (might effect my custom BR chapter tactics I'm brewing).

 ace101 wrote:
In the section for Chapter Tactics, whats the owrding for if a Succesor Chapter has an unknown founding or don't know which chapter that they are a successor of (might effect my custom BR chapter tactics I'm brewing).

You just choose a CT for the army to use.

Who is the author? I think someone said Cruddace, but I just wanted to be sure.

I've got a question: On a scale from 1 to 10, how annoyed are you when people ask questions that have already been answered 3 to 5 posts above them?

 minigun762 wrote:
Are there any vehicle upgrades or equipment?

Just four upgrades in the armory: Stormbolter, dozer blades, rokkit, extra armor (now 5 pts cheaper).

Just thought of another one that's bothered me, Bolster defences: can codex marines use it on all terrain like every other marine or still just ruins like before?

How does the Emperor Champion's stat line compare to a Captains? About equal or is it more similar to a Chaplain?

greg0985 wrote:How much will Stalkers/Hunters ruin a FMC Daemons list?

One is a glorified quad-gun on a 12/12/10 platform, and the other is a single shot missile that is massively ineffective against a monstrous creature. Ask yourself, if the space marine army had access to 3 more quadguns, how much better would they be?

BoomWolf wrote:Telion-still an upgrade, or an IC like the tau and eldar "scout" characthers?

Upgrade, Ultramarine chapter tactics only.

Kangodo wrote:I've got a question: On a scale from 1 to 10, how annoyed are you when people ask questions that have already been answered 3 to 5 posts above them?

9/10 for me....Almost EVERY question asked has been answered in the big rumor thread and Clock's Rumor roundup.

minigun762 wrote:How does the Emperor Champion's stat line compare to a Captains? About equal or is it more similar to a Chaplain?

Chaplain. He's 2 wounds I think, not 4.

 Carnage43 wrote:

greg0985 wrote:How much will Stalkers/Hunters ruin a FMC Daemons list?

One is a glorified quad-gun on a 12/12/10 platform

That's not entirely accurate; more like two Quad Guns.

well, in defense of some people asking questions already answered in the rumors thread,for some it was still just that...rumors, even with all the pics.
Some just want to know for sure before say, modeling and painting ,to get ready faster for their first game with the new dex.
As for those asking questions answered 2 post before they might have been typing their questions when the answer came back.
If not then yeah, it is kind of annoying.

Anybody have the Warzone: Damnos book yet, and can post some details about the formations and assets?

Thank you! You guys are awesome!

Another thing: I think you should be careful on giving the points for some stuff!
I really don't think that is allowed, just like giving the link to perfect scans isn't allowed.

Hey, any word on what grav weapons wound on when the target doesn't have an armor save?

Just wondering as this may be important for my Daemons.

They have a minimum to-wound of 6+

I read grav centurions put out 10 AP 2 shots rerolling wounds, sergeant gets to reroll misses and pick a different target.

and theyre cheap to boot. Is this right? care to post up the rules?

ive got a question that i havent seen asked.

i know that successor chapters use the parent's tactics. yet black templars have their own, they dont use the imperial fists tactics.

do crimson fists use the tactics of imperial fists, or are they like the templars?

So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

It replaces the boltgun on the bike as per normal? Thats how I always took it anyway.

 Rysaer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

It replaces the boltgun on the bike as per normal? Thats how I always took it anyway.

As per normal? When has ever SM biker special weapons been attached to their bikes? Anyway, I don't think you can do that, otherwise a techmarine on a bike could replace his bike's boltguns with power axes!

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

Last I checked the armoury and the costs therein are only for characters and such that say they use the armoury, not for units that have options listed specifically in their army list profile.

kb305 wrote:
I read grav centurions put out 10 AP 2 shots rerolling wounds, sergeant gets to reroll misses and pick a different target.
and theyre cheap to boot. Is this right? care to post up the rules?

Partially right.
It are 15 shots, so that would be 10 hits and they can reroll the wounds.
The Sgt can take Split Fire and Night Vision.

That would NOT be cheap, it would be more expensive than a Land Raider for a unit that would die rather fast.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Last I checked the armoury and the costs therein are only for characters and such that say they use the armoury, not for units that have options listed specifically in their army list profile.

Then check again. Special and heavy weapon choices for units refer to armoury.

Are Legion of the Damned still just an elite, or is there anyway to field an entire LOD list or anything special to do with them other than just another squad?
thanks

They are elite, nothing that makes them troops.
They also do not follow Chapter Tactics and must start in Reserve. You can't join them either.

And in my opinion they are quite kick-ass.

Kangodo wrote:

kb305 wrote:
I read grav centurions put out 10 AP 2 shots rerolling wounds, sergeant gets to reroll misses and pick a different target.
and theyre cheap to boot. Is this right? care to post up the rules?

Partially right.
It are 15 shots, so that would be 10 hits and they can reroll the wounds.
The Sgt can take Split Fire and Night Vision.

That would NOT be cheap, it would be more expensive than a Land Raider for a unit that would die rather fast.

so its around 250 points for that? doesn't the sergeant get to reroll to hit because of some wargear he can take?

Kangodo wrote:
They are elite, nothing that makes them troops.
They also do not follow Chapter Tactics and must start in Reserve. You can't join them either.

And in my opinion they are quite kick-ass.

I am wondering about the Legion of the Damned's special/heavy weapon costs. I had read they were reduced. Can you confirm if this is true? Also, can you give points cost, using whatever code you like

Thanks in advance. Cheers.

5 flamer
10melta
15 plasma

and heavies are the same as everyone else since its a pain in the ass in the wargear section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb305 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

kb305 wrote:
I read grav centurions put out 10 AP 2 shots rerolling wounds, sergeant gets to reroll misses and pick a different target.
and theyre cheap to boot. Is this right? care to post up the rules?

Partially right.
It are 15 shots, so that would be 10 hits and they can reroll the wounds.
The Sgt can take Split Fire and Night Vision.

That would NOT be cheap, it would be more expensive than a Land Raider for a unit that would die rather fast.

so its around 250 points for that? doesn't the sergeant get to reroll to hit because of some wargear he can take?

They reroll because they have a grav cannon and a grav amp, the amp allows the reroll.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Last I checked the armoury and the costs therein are only for characters and such that say they use the armoury, not for units that have options listed specifically in their army list profile.

Then check again. Special and heavy weapon choices for units refer to armoury.

Can't check just now, I was giving answers from a friend's copy and don't have access to it at this moment. I will take your word for it, but it still won't be an issue IMO. Firstly, unless something changed, the gun on the bike is always listed as wargear for the unit as a whole, not specifically a separate type of gun, so there is no reason it can't be changed. C:CSM set a precedent too. Secondly, it's GW, they are unlikely to invalidate their Bike conversion kit. If it is as you say then expect a swift FAQ to be sure.

Who is in the successor chapter part? Any word on the Exorcists?

so i got ahold of the codex as well. wont be answering many questions, but i will say that the Captain Titus model people want to make, if going with the bolter and chainsword relics, will be about 145pts. if given the relic relentless armor, he'll be 205pts.

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

Says in the unit entry that up to two bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list....

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

Says in the unit entry that up to two bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list....

Is that the same wording that is used for every other entry?

 Shadox wrote:
Who is in the successor chapter part? Any word on the Exorcists?

Under "unknown foundings" it states "The Exorcists and Blood Ravens are Chapters whose progenitors are known only to the highest-ranking members of the Ordo Malleus, if at all, and any details of their creation have been placed under Inquisitorial seal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

Says in the unit entry that up to two bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list....

Is that the same wording that is used for every other entry?

Umm, Devestators entry says "up to four Space Marines may each take one weapon from the Heavy Weapons list."
Sternguard says "two veterans may each take one item from either the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list"

Hadn't seen this yet, Graviton weapons firing at vehicles roll a d6, on a 1-5 no result, on a 6, target suffers an immobilized result and loses a single hull point, they have no effect on buildings.

It's an obvious mistake then. If there is no legal weapon in the SW armoury for them to take then why link them to it? I expect a swift FAQ, and I don't see many people RAWing it either.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's an obvious mistake then. If there is no legal weapon in the SW armoury for them to take then why link them to it? I expect a swift FAQ, and I don't see many people RAWing it either.

Unit entry doesn't say that they can replace one with, it says they "may each take one from". Seems pretty evident to me that SM bike squads can still take two specials....

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's an obvious mistake then. If there is no legal weapon in the SW armoury for them to take then why link them to it? I expect a swift FAQ, and I don't see many people RAWing it either.

Unit entry doesn't say that they can replace one with, it says they "may each take one from". Seems pretty evident to me that SM bike squads can still take two specials....

But that's why I asked you if that was the wording for all units. If every unit in the Codex says 'may take' instead of 'replace' then the replace clause printed in the armoury itself is universal. However if even one unit has the replace clause printed in its actual unit entry then that is different.

There are often other caveats as well that can be hard to pick up on through second hand information. It could be that the armoury is a reference point and the replace clause in the armoury itself only applies to specific units, and that that's written somewhere but people have just missed it so far since the book is so new. As I said, there would be no point in allowing Bikes SWs from the armoury if they couldn't take any of them at all.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

But that's why I asked you if that was the wording for all units. If every unit in the Codex says 'may take' instead of 'replace' then the replace clause printed in the armoury itself is universal. However if even one unit has the replace clause printed in its actual unit entry then that is different..

Wording is similar for other units, so replace clause from armoury stands. It is there to stop tacticals having a meltagun AND bolter. The biker situation is obviously a mistake though.

Vanguard Vets get melee weapons from the list as per DA prices. But they get Storm Shields for a dime.

Just glancing at the unit entries. Seems characters are given the option to buy wargear from the individual lists. Some models "may take" items from the wargear lists, and where the models "may replace" weapons the point costs are given within that specific unit entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hivetyrant765 wrote:
do crimson fists use the tactics of imperial fists, or are they like the templars?

They're listed (though they get an entire 2 pages of pics/fluff) amongst the Imperial Fists successors. Says specifically on pg 77 "a detachment from the Crimson Fists uses the Chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists."

 dracpanzer wrote:
Vanguard Vets get melee weapons from the list as per DA prices. But they get Storm Shields for a dime.

Just glancing at the unit entries. Seems characters are given the option to buy wargear from the individual lists. Some models "may take" items from the wargear lists, and where the models "may replace" weapons the point costs are given within that specific unit entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hivetyrant765 wrote:
do crimson fists use the tactics of imperial fists, or are they like the templars?

They're listed (though they get an entire 2 pages of pics/fluff) amongst the Imperial Fists successors. Says specifically on pg 77 "a detachment from the Crimson Fists uses the Chapter Tactics of the Imperial Fists."

Woots, looks like my Lysander Model can keep his CF colors

Why would Lysander have an Iron Halo listed on his Wargear if he has a Stormshield..........

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Why would Lysander have an Iron Halo listed on his Wargear if he has a Stormshield..........

Can't a vindicare assassin remove one of them?

So now he combats the assassins he's supposed to work with by having an extra shield!

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Why would Lysander have an Iron Halo listed on his Wargear if he has a Stormshield..........

Probably just for the sake of completeness, he is still a Captain after all.

The rumors I heard about this new book had me worried about the Space Marines becoming super OP. Honestly after glancing through it a couple of times, its really not that bad. Some more spice thrown in on the Nilla marines. To be quite honest, grav-weapons had me worried but after reading the actual rule, and seeing their availability, they are Meh.

Nevermind, they can be used as CCW, they aren't classified as Melee though.

Nocturnus wrote:
I am wondering about the Legion of the Damned's special/heavy weapon costs. I had read they were reduced. Can you confirm if this is true? Also, can you give points cost, using whatever code you like
Thanks in advance. Cheers.

Same cost as everyone else, you just take weapons from the list. And it are Heavy Weapons only! No special Weapons.
One may take a flamer, melta or plasma for some points.

And no, I won't give you points.
Nor will I tell you to download the scanned codex, it's perfect quality.
Because that's not allowed.

Well at least the rumour of not having bike armies was bogus.

You can have squads of five as troops. Not just one per CM or Captain, but all troops as long as you meet the size criteria.

Full size (6) unit of dev Centurions can certainly lay on the hurt.
18-30 shots from Grav Cannons will ruin someones day (plus the 18/36 shots from the hurricane bolters), not cheap at coming on for 500pts, but certainly destructive.
Also DevCents can take a land raider as a dedicated transport, as can AssCents.

 Rysaer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

It replaces the boltgun on the bike as per normal? Thats how I always took it anyway.

That's never been "normal".

Space Marine bikes in the past always traded their bolt pistols for whatever special weapon they took. The twin linked boltguns are an integral part of the bike model, and have been for over 20 years, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So it seems bikes cannot actually take special weapons. Special Weapons armoury says that a model can exchange a boltgun or a melee weapon for one of the special weapons. Only weapon that the bikers have is a bolt pistol...

It replaces the boltgun on the bike as per normal? Thats how I always took it anyway.

That's never been "normal".

Space Marine bikes in the past always traded their bolt pistols for whatever special weapon they took. The twin linked boltguns are an integral part of the bike model, and have been for over 20 years, lol.

This argument on biker weapons kinda makes me sad... If it's all the same and until an FAQ hits, i'll ask if I can use them anyways, If enough people have no problems, then I suppose this won't be a big deal...

I don't think most people will mind, but if it came up in a tournament, an opposing player would have room to stand if they said "that's illegal". I'm sure it's something that will get FAQ'd, makes the option unusable otherwise.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't think most people will mind, but if it came up in a tournament, an opposing player would have room to stand if they said "that's illegal". I'm sure it's something that will get FAQ'd, makes the option unusable otherwise.

Good thing i'm not a tournament player then not all the time at least.

I've been reading around here that Sternguard can take 2 weapons from the heavy-weapons and special-weapons lists (Forgot if combi weapons count as special?), is this per 5 men or per 10? If so, that means that they can only bring just 2 combi guns, 3 if the sergant can take one to?

And where does it say in the codex that Tacti squads can't take Heavy Flamers? I had a quick peek in store to look at it, but it didn't say anywere that they couldn't.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
I've been reading around here that Sternguard can take 2 weapons from the heavy-weapons and special-weapons lists (Forgot if combi weapons count as special?), is this per 5 men or per 10? If so, that means that they can only bring just 2 combi guns, 3 if the sergant can take one to?

And where does it say in the codex that Tacti squads can't take Heavy Flamers? I had a quick peek in store to look at it, but it didn't say anywere that they couldn't.

Tos save people trouble, it has a note near it. Only legion of the damned and Sternguard can have it.

Odd, the only note next to it I saw said something about Terminators.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
I've been reading around here that Sternguard can take 2 weapons from the heavy-weapons and special-weapons lists (Forgot if combi weapons count as special?), is this per 5 men or per 10? If so, that means that they can only bring just 2 combi guns, 3 if the sergant can take one to?

Any model can have a combi or stormbolter.
Up to two Veterans can have a heavy or special weapon.

Neither is limited by the number of models in the squad.

And where does it say in the codex that Tacti squads can't take Heavy Flamers? I had a quick peek in store to look at it, but it didn't say anywere that they couldn't.

Annotated on the Heavy Weapons section of the Space Marines Wargear List which all units use to purchase their upgrades. 1. Sternguard Veterans and Legion of the Damned Only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Odd, the only note next to it I saw said something about Terminators.

The Terminator entry has its own listing for replacing the stormbolter with a heavy flamer that is independent of the Wargear List.

I heard mention of a Relic Chainsword? Is this a viable option for a Captain? any hint of point costs and what it does would be greatly appreciated!

Teeth of Terra.

S+2, AP3, Rampage, Strikedown, Specialist Weapon USRs.

And yes, can be taken by any of the generic HQ slot choices.

That sounds pretty cool! I've always liked the look of captains with chainswords for some reason. any hint on points?

eg "so many points more/ less than ....."

 stargasm wrote:
That sounds pretty cool! I've always liked the look of captains with chainswords for some reason. any hint on points?

eg "so many points more/ less than ....."

Same as a rhino.

Thanks! that's one pricey weapon for an average character, but i do likes me chainswords!

Those relics are all expensive, the cheapest one is around half a Rhino and the Chainsword is number 2.

I'm kind of annoyed that you can't take grav weapons on any of the snp/relentless models other than centurions. No combi grav for terminator characters and no grav rifle for legion of the damned.

Bikers are relentless and can take 3 Grav-weapons in a minimum-size unit

Kangodo wrote:
Bikers are relentless and can take 3 Grav-weapons in a minimum-size unit

2 and a combi...in theory.

Since the wording is switching out a bolter or CCW for the special weapon, and bikers have neither, that means bikers cannot even use special weapons ATM....technically.

If bikers weren't allowed to take them, they wouldn't be allowed to. They can take them fine, it's just a RAI vs RAW what gun gets sacrificed in order to have them.

yeah but who is going to argue that? And even if they do you know that that is the guy you avoid playing.

Its a dumb typing error, anyone outside of a tournament who argues it is a total arse. In a tournament, well, whatever goes.

I just went on my ipad to see if I can pull it up on the army builder feature and turns out the advertised army builder feature is not there. Jesus Christ GW.

Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Counts as 1 model

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Someone in either this thread or another said they found the rule in the Dex stating that the Attack Bike counted as two models.

Just wanted confirmation as I found nothing on this.

Puscifer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Why would it?

Someone in either this thread or another said they found the rule in the Dex stating that the Attack Bike counted as two models.

Just wanted confirmation as I found nothing on this.

Only for combat squads, same as the 5th edition codex.

Puscifer wrote:
Quick question...

I bought the codex (thankfully not on the iPad) and I'm trying to see if you can take three bikes and an attack bike as a single troops choice for a mounted CM or Captain.

Is that legal? Does the Attack Bike counts as two models?

Under combat squads, it talks about bike squads. It doesn't explicitly say they count as two, just that a full squad is 8+1, and it splits down into 5 and 3+1 bike squads. I don't see anywhere else that implies otherwise. I think for the 5 models, you need 5 normal bikes, or 4+1. Either way, you get the 5 models you need rolling along.

Unless they FAQ to add something, you can't have attack or scout bikes as troops. Just Bike Squads.

The only case where you count heads instead of models is for splitting your bike unit into combat squads. He probably meant that.

Ahhh thanks guys.

Might just go with 4 + the AB to make it five.

White Scars and Bike lists in general are going to be very powerful this edition.

It says "Bike Squads of at least five models" can be taken if you have a captain or chapter maser on a bike.

So yes. An Attack Bike can be added to any Bike Squad.

Kangodo wrote:
Nevermind, they can be used as CCW, they aren't classified as Melee though.

Nocturnus wrote:
I am wondering about the Legion of the Damned's special/heavy weapon costs. I had read they were reduced. Can you confirm if this is true? Also, can you give points cost, using whatever code you like
Thanks in advance. Cheers.

Same cost as everyone else, you just take weapons from the list. And it are Heavy Weapons only! No special Weapons.
One may take a flamer, melta or plasma for some points.

And no, I won't give you points.
Nor will I tell you to download the scanned codex, it's perfect quality.
Because that's not allowed.

Um, okay. I have no idea what you are trying to say. But, it's fine. I received my codex today and yes, I bought it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

 marv335 wrote:
Full size (6) unit of dev Centurions can certainly lay on the hurt.
18-30 shots from Grav Cannons will ruin someones day (plus the 18/36 shots from the hurricane bolters), not cheap at coming on for 500pts, but certainly destructive.
Also DevCents can take a land raider as a dedicated transport, as can AssCents.

Cents are Very Bulky, so you can fit 5 in an LRC or 4 in an LRR or Stormraven.

I can see two ways of using Assault Centurions:

A: Loading 4 into a Stormraven along with an Ironclad. Zoom Stormraven onto board, drop centurions and Ironclad behind it. Since they have MtC, they auto-pass the dangerous terrain test.

B: Take a squad of five in an LRC. Replace their assault launchers with hurricane bolters. When they get where they need to go, disembark, open fire, and then use the assault launchers on the land raider for frag grenades.

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Regarding the special weapons on the bikes. It's clearly RAI that you can have special weapons but due to a proof reading error it looks like you can't.

We had the same problem with the current Ork dex in which it looked like we couldn't take a PK on a nob, the most common load out for him.

If anybody gives you flack over this don't play them. I bet you GW address this quickly in a FAQ just like the ork nob issue.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Seriously? If someone ever tried to tell me I couldn't take the special weapons, I'd tell them to get bent and never play them again. I hate rules lawyers. It doesn't take even average intelligence to know what is meant by the army list entry. Some people have too much time on their hands

Nocturnus wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

Also, what is everyone on about regarding special weapons on bikes? Maybe I've misunderstood something here, but in my codex it clearly states 2 bikers may take special weapons.

Yes, but look at the special weapons list. You need to trade out a boltgun or CCW to get a special weapon, and bikers have neither. So they have access to a list of weapons which they cannot select.....twice!

Seriously? If someone ever tried to tell me I couldn't take the special weapons, I'd tell them to get bent and never play them again. I hate rules lawyers. It doesn't take even average intelligence to know what is meant by the army list entry. Some people have too much time on their hands

It's how the rules are written. Sure, I imagine they MEANT to allow the bikes to take special weapons, but that's not what it says. It's no more legal to take special weapons on bikes than it is to count your librarian as having 75 wounds....both are made up rules not supported by the book at the moment.

You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

Exactly. Well put. It's ridiculous. Your comparing it to 75 wounds on a Librarian is not even in the same galaxy. It's not "illegal". It clearly states they may take a special weapon. In other parts of the list, it indicates "may replace with". But, whatever. I am glad I don't have to deal with crap like this in my local meta. I am not looking for a fight. We will just have to agree to disagree

 Kingsley wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
You can play it however you want, but tournaments/competitve play/pick up games against strangers will not support anything but the rules as they are written.

It will likely be fixed in a matter of weeks though.

As a tournament organizer, albeit on a small scale, anyone who tries to claim Bikes can't get special weapons will get laughed out of any of my events. It's the "vehicles can't take invulnerable saves" or "Terminators don't wear Terminator armor" or "you can't fire a flamer" of the current Codex.

I get it, I really really do. I even agree with you, and will be playing with the bikes allowed to take the special weapons. If you are a tournament organizer as you claim though, you of all people must realize what a slippery slope the RAW vs RAI argument is. I've seen more than a few bits of drama where the organizer changes something and doesn't tell everyone about it and all of a sudden it's sprung on an opponent mid-game and then everything blows up. It's best to take a pure "RAW, no exceptions" approach IMO, than it is to start house ruling stuff and changing things on people even if the occasional oddity like this might crop up.

Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Sadly, this seems to be a hastily thrown together book with little to no proofreading. On another note, I find it funny that GW still hates Dark Angels. With the exception of Deathwing lists, this book seems to do everything better. Oh, other than Divination Librarians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nocturnus wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Sadly, this seems to be a hastily thrown together book with little to no proofreading. I guess GW will have to change the picture for the Command Squad, as you can no longer take a plasma gun. On another note, I find it funny that GW still hates Dark Angels. With the exception of Deathwing lists, this book seems to do everything better. Oh, other than Divination Librarians.

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

Pg 51 defines Close Combat Weapons, and specifies that they are type: Melee.

nobody wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

Pg 51 defines Close Combat Weapons, and specifies that they are type: Melee.

Thank you for pointing that out. Had someone else mentioned that in another thread there would have been less of an argument on the bike options. I never noticed the paragraph where it says to use the profile for close combat weapon and that the type essentially changes to melee.

The question is though, it says the pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. Since were dealing with making a list and swapping gear option, can the pistol be used as a close combat weapon?

It's a stretch, but I can always see someone trying to argue it.

Either way, it really needs an FAQ

 Carnage43 wrote:
I get it, I really really do. I even agree with you, and will be playing with the bikes allowed to take the special weapons. If you are a tournament organizer as you claim though, you of all people must realize what a slippery slope the RAW vs RAI argument is. I've seen more than a few bits of drama where the organizer changes something and doesn't tell everyone about it and all of a sudden it's sprung on an opponent mid-game and then everything blows up. It's best to take a pure "RAW, no exceptions" approach IMO, than it is to start house ruling stuff and changing things on people even if the occasional oddity like this might crop up.

My rule of thumb is that if an option or rule was clearly intended to be functional by the rules, it works even if the rules don't strictly do so. This applies to vehicle invulnerable saves, options that "can't be taken" despite being listed, and rules that technically don't function. For instance, some models, like Wraithknights, cannot shoot by strict RAW, because line of sight is drawn from the model's eyes-- and Wraithknights don't have any eyes. However, we all know what that rule is supposed to mean.

Interesting, it looks like Black Templar Crusader squads can still take a heavy and special at five man strong.

Actually a bike army using the Black Templar traits might be interesting.

Vanguard with dual grav pistols?

nobody wrote:


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

Wolf Guard can take Bikes, Jetpacks or Terminator armour without affecting their ability to select a dedicated transport. So there is precedent.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

nobody wrote:
Couldn't an argument be made that Bolt Pistols are Melee weapons (since they count as Close Combat Weapons, which have type: Melee), so they could be replaced?


A more interesting rules loophole is the fact that Command Squads can be mounted on bikes...and then can take a Razorback transport. They can't get in it, but you can give yourself a mobile gun platform to help crack enemy tanks.

It certainly is a close combat weapon, but it is not a melee weapon. Those are defined on pg. 60-62 of the BRB while the bolt pistol is defined under ranged weapons/close combat weapons.

I'm under belief it is an oversight and they essentially omitted the boltgun by mistake. It will likely get FAQ'd, and balance will be restored to the galaxy.

What they more likely omitted was the ability to swap the bolt pistol for a close combat weapon, like the DA bikers have. Then you swap your bolt pistol for a CCW, then swap that for a special weapon, and boom, problem solved.

Or all they needed to do was give them a points cost in the listing, like Terminators have.

It's all poor editing. Now how do all those people feel about their ridiculously overpriced and error filled Limited Edition dust jackets?

I don't know if this has been asked yet, but can you choose traits from different chapters? So say one from Black Templars, and one from Salamanders? Or do both the traits you pick have to be from the same chapter?

You don't "pick" traits.
You pick a Chapter and then get all the traits from that Chapter.

Thats what meant, you pick via chapter and not single traits like in the 4ed book then? So have they gotten rid of the special character special rules or are they still there, and can they be used along side the chapter specific traits and has the point cost for vulnerable Dreadnoughts changed?

So, I may be missing something here, but it looks like the Grav Cannon is only available to Centurion Devastators if I'm reading this correctly. If so, that makes the "Salvo" weapon type rather...pointless doesn't it?

Characters have their own Special Rules.
But they don't have the "If you take this, do X instead of the Chapter Trait."-rule any more.

So if you want Salamanders, you will say the army picks the Salamander-trait and all your flamers get upgraded, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, I may be missing something here, but it looks like the Grav Cannon is only available to Centurion Devastators if I'm reading this correctly. If so, that makes the "Salvo" weapon type rather...pointless doesn't it?

Consistency and forward compatibility? I could easily see Forgeworld doing man-portable grav cannon, for example.

Can you mastercraft krak grenades?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, I may be missing something here, but it looks like the Grav Cannon is only available to Centurion Devastators if I'm reading this correctly. If so, that makes the "Salvo" weapon type rather...pointless doesn't it?

Consistency and forward compatibility? I could easily see Forgeworld doing man-portable grav cannon, for example.

It really feels like they're pushing salvo simply because they wrote a new firing type in the core book and really want to remind people about it. Which explains sonic blasters being salvo.

Bikes have twin-linked Boltguns. Swap them out and you have your Special Weapon. Why is this an issue?

Kangodo wrote:
You don't "pick" traits.
You pick a Chapter and then get all the traits from that Chapter.

I for one am not looking forward to the count as nightmares to come.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I for one am not looking forward to the count as nightmares to come.

I don't see the problem?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Bikes have twin-linked Boltguns. Swap them out and you have your Special Weapon. Why is this an issue?

1) No other loyalist-biker works like that.
2) Chaos works like that because they say "swap the weapon from the bike!"

Eventually something else might get a grav cannon. Just not now. Because you need to buy those crappy Centurions.

As far as the previous question:

Special Characters are tied to Chapter Traits. So if you pick Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fists, you cannot field Tigurius, for example, because he has Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines.

You pick one Chapter Tactics for your primary detachment. The only way to mix and match is to take an allied detachment with a separate Chapter Tactics. But any Special Characters chosen will only affect their detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Bikes have twin-linked Boltguns. Swap them out and you have your Special Weapon. Why is this an issue?

Two reasons:
1. In 25 years, it has never worked like that. The bolt guns are built into the models, and everybody's existing models are probably built with the boltguns as part of them.
2. The wargear is Space Marine Bike, not twin-linked boltguns. It's still swapping out an item that doesn't technically exist.


The entry for Scouts very explicitly says that there is an option to trade out your bike's twin linked bolters for the Astartes grenade launcher. The regular bike squadron does not use that wording for the special weapons. How is it so hard for people to realize that this is an error? I don't even run bikes because I don't like the aesthetic. But I can see a proofreading error for what it is.