Hmm, what's this? So they rename the same box with different cover art to try and sell it as a different kit? Shameless bastards.
That particular Vendread was designed to look as GK-y as possible, with the 3 fingered Doomfist, the sarcophagus panels with imprinted text, the tilt plate, and painted so the 2 leg arches were the same colours on the sides corresponding to the tilt plate (the left was white with sword and gear-tooth edges, the right was red with skull, on both half of the tilt plate and the full of 1 grieve image.
The GK-specific things are just paint, it's all stock parts in the kit. Check out the SM Vendread on the GW site, the Raven Guard has the exact same fist and legplates. The Ultramarine has th e same text panels on the body. They can just slap the Grey Knight on the box, pop the same kit in, and done. It's nothing they haven't done before.
I'd both love and hate for it to be a GK specific dread. I'd happily snap some iconography and plastic psycannons up but I already HAVE four grey knight dreadnoughts.
What I mean is that the specific parts are generic, but out of those generic parts the most GK-like parts were picked. For example they choose the scripted panels as opposed to the flat ones or the raised relief artwork archways.
If they remove all of the Inquisition units and Assassins as rumored, how can they make a 104 page, hardback codex for $49.50? Either the rumors are wrong, they added SM units, or that's an expensive update to 7th.
H.B.M.C. wrote: ...However, the Long Fangs would be a little harder. I can't remember the layout of the Devastator sprue, but aren't the heavy weapons all jumbled up with the Marines?
The missile launcher is, but the other heavy weapons are on a separate sprue.
I just had a look, the bodies/legs/heads are on their own sprue, the missile launcher and multi melta are on the sprue which has accessories, random weapons and shoulder pads, the LC's, HB's and PC's are all on their own sprue.
So you could omit the first sprue I mentioned and replace it with a single SW sprue and it would work out, you wouldn't be missing anything you need.
For the assault marines, the jump packs and jump pack bodies (the ones with the straps) are pretty much on their own sprue, so you just need that sprue + a single SW sprue and you're good to go.
Tsilber wrote: hmm. I would of thought we would be getting some kind of multi kit henchmen box set by now. (And please save me the "well thats GW for you waah waah waah, sniffle" comments"
I wonder if they ever plan on releasing anything like it. It seems since Coteaz is so popular they could make some good money producing the Henchmen kits.
The troubling thing is that, given the GW policy of now "make models for it or drop it", and with no models being shown off...
Well, there's still time, I guess. I'm not overly concerned yet, but I only have a squad of converted henchmen right now. I mean, really, guardsmen work fine, so long as you have spare bolters laying around.
Tsilber wrote: hmm. I would of thought we would be getting some kind of multi kit henchmen box set by now. (And please save me the "well thats GW for you waah waah waah, sniffle" comments"
I wonder if they ever plan on releasing anything like it. It seems since Coteaz is so popular they could make some good money producing the Henchmen kits.
Well if I recall they suggested using the olde Inquisitorial Stormtrooper (well, Imperial Guard Stormtrooper) models for Acolytes. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them repainting the Scions in a black/red paint and telling you to use those.
What I mean is that the specific parts are generic, but out of those generic parts the most GK-like parts were picked. For example they choose the scripted panels as opposed to the flat ones or the raised relief artwork archways.
Ah,I thought you were calling it out as not a stock model to argue against them just using it for a reboxed GK Venerable. My money is on that guy being the one on the box. Given the lack of accompanying models, I am starting to wonder if GW is actively trying to confuse rumour mongers by switching up codex release orders. Feels like a lot of long term projections have wildly veered off course in the last little while.
GreyHamster wrote: Given the lack of accompanying models, I am starting to wonder if GW is actively trying to confuse rumour mongers by switching up codex release orders. Feels like a lot of long term projections have wildly veered off course in the last little while.
There's no reason to try to confuse rumor mongers. No one has anything beyond 2 to 4 weeks at this point. The only reliable long-term rumor mongers went silent right before the schedule heated up.
You guys think Paladins are going to have the same statline? From those army builder images, they didn't drop in points compared to terminators so was wondering if they might get something extra whether that be special rules or a boost in stats.
pretre wrote: You can order the french book in the US...
Really? Why would someone want to do that? I thought it was pretty hard even the other way, to get the English book in France.
Because GW doesn't have a seperate distribution chain for Canada. It's just "North America" so their NA dsitrubition chain takes Quebec into account. Basicly any French warhammer 40k books ordered by the Quebec GW stores are being shipped up from the US.
the_Armyman wrote: If they remove all of the Inquisition units and Assassins as rumored, how can they make a 104 page, hardback codex for $49.50? Either the rumors are wrong, they added SM units, or that's an expensive update to 7th.
Ik book has 64 pages and 2 unit entries. I am sure they can make 104 pages happen.
slah wrote: I´m sitting with the new WD and can confirm the cover on the regular codex
The boxes:
Spoiler:
The assassin dataslate:
well that didn't take long
thanks a lot
Ah, so it looks like the "Grey Knights Stormraven/Land Raider/Dreadnought" is like a "Dark Angel Bike Squad." Named for the army it is part of, not because its a new model.
A 10 man box of Grey Knights looks good, and is probably the same kit as the 5man, just doubled up. The Purifers are probably identical to the old box, same with Paladins. Models look exactly the same. Whoever said that to me a few pages back called it right.
Ah, so it looks like the "Grey Knights Stormraven/Land Raider/Dreadnought" is like a "Dark Angel Bike Squad." Named for the army it is part of, not because its a new model.
A 10 man box of Grey Knights looks good, and is probably the same kit as the 5man, just doubled up. The Purifers are probably identical to the old box, same with Paladins. Models look exactly the same. Whoever said that to me a few pages back called it right.
but what about normal GK terminators !? same sprues than the Paladins? why not name it on the box for a dual kit...
Great, looks like the previous rumors were true (as expected). My last army is gutted and now requires three sources to make one book. Because nickel and diming is good.
Oh, or are we supposed to have a positive spin on this. If its a literal unit delete/points tweak copy and paste job can we finally get some unanimous " this is getting bad" for once?
chnmmr wrote: After this release, I think Tyranids will be kissing the floor that their codex didn't get butchered like the GK did.
So you've seen the inside of the codex? Whats in there?
TheKbob wrote: Great, looks like the previous rumors were true (as expected). My last army is gutted and now requires three sources to make one book. Because nickel and diming is good.
Oh, or are we supposed to have a positive spin on this. If its a literal unit delete/points tweak copy and paste job can we finally get some unanimous " this is getting bad" for once?
Because it's hidden in the glare, I was curious as to what the excessive new price gouging on the Strike Squad box is for those of us paying Canadian prices?!
Experiment 626 wrote: Because it's hidden in the glare, I was curious as to what the excessive new price gouging on the Strike Squad box is for those of us paying Canadian prices?!
The 10 man box is supposedly cheaper than the cost of two 5 man boxes now
Ah, so it looks like the "Grey Knights Stormraven/Land Raider/Dreadnought" is like a "Dark Angel Bike Squad." Named for the army it is part of, not because its a new model.
A 10 man box of Grey Knights looks good, and is probably the same kit as the 5man, just doubled up. The Purifers are probably identical to the old box, same with Paladins. Models look exactly the same. Whoever said that to me a few pages back called it right.
but what about normal GK terminators !? same sprues than the Paladins? why not name it on the box for a dual kit...
The way I had it explained to me is that they are doing 2 boxes per dual kit. Take this one. One box is called Paladins and has Paladins on the cover, the other is Terminators, has Terminators. That way they can pass it off as something totally different. Possibly for their webstore's filter system?
More likely, its so they can trick little Timmy into getting 2. Timmy gets a box and the Codex. Builds them as Paladins. Is told he needs Terminators instead and must buy 2 more boxes. Timmy buys 2 more and doesn't realise he could have swapped the heads (or even just had the same head, not vitally important) on his existing squad and just bought 1 box. Or he does and because he's twelve "Cool extra!"
And those models are completely identical to the old box art just with a different background. The Dreadknight one is a copy and paste of the old design, the Purifiers and Paladins are identical to their images on the back of the old boxes. Even the placement is identical. The strike squad looks like the old cover art, with more GK photoshoped in behind. The Vendread is identical to the showcase in the 5th Ed book, and the Land Raider and Raven I have definately seen before. All looks stock with a paintjob, no new kits
And goddammit! Dataslate better be easy to transfer between Android phone and Windows 8 laptop. And not expensive for 4 models. Muthafethers.
chnmmr wrote: After this release, I think Tyranids will be kissing the floor that their codex didn't get butchered like the GK did.
So you've seen the inside of the codex? Whats in there?
TheKbob wrote: Great, looks like the previous rumors were true (as expected). My last army is gutted and now requires three sources to make one book. Because nickel and diming is good.
Oh, or are we supposed to have a positive spin on this. If its a literal unit delete/points tweak copy and paste job can we finally get some unanimous " this is getting bad" for once?
Will you finally actually quit then?
You're cute. Please, give us the positive spin. Let me know what I'm doing wrong to enjoy having my armies invalidating and costing $100 in rules alone to keep relevant? Please, tell me.
Experiment 626 wrote: Because it's hidden in the glare, I was curious as to what the excessive new price gouging on the Strike Squad box is for those of us paying Canadian prices?!
The 10 man box is supposedly cheaper than the cost of two 5 man boxes now
Surprisingly it is so! I've just had a look and the image says its £37:50 Sterling, as opposed to £20:50 for the 5 man box that came out before.
Don't know about other countries though.
I understand that some Grey Knight players are upset about this, and I can really sympathize with you guys, but I'm coming back to this thread to see rumors about this army, not complaints. Assassins and Inquisition AREN'T Grey Knights, and I'm glad they're out of the codex. Can we please start a complaint thread instead of complaining in here?
Man, GW is becoming comic book-bad buy predictable with the unit removal-and-transfer to dataslate stuff.
So, if I'm low-balling the Officio Assassinorium at $10, then it costs literally twice as much to continue a Grey Knights army from the last book. Although from what I've seen so far there aren't a lot of changes in the overall rules, so then a doubling of the...subscription cost for Codex: Grey Knights with not much of a reason to make the update.
More likely, its so they can trick little Timmy into getting 2. Timmy gets a box and the Codex. Builds them as Paladins. Is told he needs Terminators instead and must buy 2 more boxes. Timmy buys 2 more and doesn't realise he could have swapped the heads (or even just had the same head, not vitally important) on his existing squad and just bought 1 box. Or he does and because he's twelve "Cool extra!"
Yeah if you could stop abusing poor little Timmy by using him as a go-to straw man, that'd be just fantastic. You could lay that same "kids are going to get confused by this and that's exactly what those bastards want" claim to pretty much *any* product without an age restriction (and many with!).
Seriously, this is a rebox release with no new models and an eviscerated codex; you don't need to reach as hard as you are for a criticism, here. Plenty to be had. It sounds like a codex to avoid, and proper GK players should rightly be pretty disappointed with this treatment.
Accolade wrote: Man, GW is becoming comic book-bad buy predictable with the unit removal-and-transfer to dataslate stuff.
So, if I'm low-balling the Officio Assassinorium at $10, then it costs literally twice as much to continue a Grey Knights army from the last book. Although from what I've seen so far there aren't a lot of changes in the overall rules, so then a doubling of the...subscription cost for Codex: Grey Knights with not much of a reason to make the update.
To be fair, if they retcon out the atrocities of ward for the last book and add something interesting and not pants on head slowed then maybe i could see it being worth it. but i highly doubt it :(
chnmmr wrote: After this release, I think Tyranids will be kissing the floor that their codex didn't get butchered like the GK did.
So you've seen the inside of the codex? Whats in there?
TheKbob wrote: Great, looks like the previous rumors were true (as expected). My last army is gutted and now requires three sources to make one book. Because nickel and diming is good.
Oh, or are we supposed to have a positive spin on this. If its a literal unit delete/points tweak copy and paste job can we finally get some unanimous " this is getting bad" for once?
Will you finally actually quit then?
You're cute. Please, give us the positive spin. Let me know what I'm doing wrong to enjoy having my armies invalidating and costing $100 in rules alone to keep relevant? Please, tell me.
No spin, I think we'd all be better off if you had actually quit like you said you would. That way we wouldn't have to read more of the same from you, and youd have the peace of mind of actually quitting the product you hate so much.
More likely, its so they can trick little Timmy into getting 2. Timmy gets a box and the Codex. Builds them as Paladins. Is told he needs Terminators instead and must buy 2 more boxes. Timmy buys 2 more and doesn't realise he could have swapped the heads (or even just had the same head, not vitally important) on his existing squad and just bought 1 box. Or he does and because he's twelve "Cool extra!"
Yeah if you could stop abusing poor little Timmy by using him as a go-to straw man, that'd be just fantastic. You could lay that same "kids are going to get confused by this and that's exactly what those bastards want" claim to pretty much *any* product without an age restriction (and many with!).
Seriously, this is a rebox release with no new models and an eviscerated codex; you don't need to reach as hard as you are for a criticism, here. Plenty to be had. It sounds like a codex to avoid, and proper GK players should rightly be pretty disappointed with this treatment.
My sincerest apologies...Timmy is an incredibly smart boy and is bullied an atrocious amount on this forum...I am disgusted with myself.
Little Brandon on the other hand...
No spin, I think we'd all be better off if you had actually quit like you said you would. That way we wouldn't have to read more of the same from you, and youd have the peace of mind of actually quitting the product you hate so much.
I already sold off nearly everything and have bought nothing. I play three other games now. I have peace of mind, but to see the game I'd still love to play go down the drain with a legion of folks who are still willing to defend them, defying reasoning, is frustrating. Or try to "we'd be better off without upset fans" is a part of the problem.
If you want an echo chamber, go to another forum. There are several that offer such qualities.
If you want positive, we can share PMs on the new ininifty rules coming, on the new circle warlock giving constructs synergy, or Wave 2 of Malifaux.
Usually when I quit something I dont sit around and harp on it, I move on
It's not hate when its based upon facts and reasoning. And I still like Warhammer 40k. I dislike Games Workshop and their poisoning of the game and allowing the community to eat itself.
To take a book that folks have built armies based within the last three years and then rip it apart into multiple purchase chunks and not get heartburn, rightfully so, is ignorant at best.
I know I'm in the minority here but I'm quite looking forward to the new book.
The inquisition work much better as a separate codex as do the assassins, having them mixed in with the Grey Knights was just strange. Obviously having to fork out for both a new GK codex and an assassin leaflet is a pain in the ass.....
The new codex though I'm positive about, the current one is a mismatched FAQ'd mess at the minute that really doesn't work in 7th so getting fixed rules is only a good thing.
The lack of new models isn't really much of a surprise but seeing as we're losing alot of content they've got to fill the book with something and I'm thinking/hoping that we'll basically get all the supplement goodies in the base codex.
The new pattern seems to be - Base codex + Supplement with additional Detachments and formation. I think that our new codex will have multiple detachment types for us to use and a host of different formations.
Some people aren't a fan of these I know but the ghazzy book has loads of cool usable options in it as does the new logan book apparently, that's what I'm hoping for.
I think the split of the GK codex makes perfect sense and would be acclaimed by everyone in the community… if not for the prices. If that Assassins dataslate was a free pdf, and included as a booklet in the next WD for those of us who like physical books, who would complain? I mean, if your pals are suddenly going to tell you to stop playing your army because GW made it into different books and they have a “two sources max” policy, the problem lies not with GW…
BrianDavion wrote: Because GW doesn't have a seperate distribution chain for Canada. It's just "North America" so their NA dsitrubition chain takes Quebec into account. Basicly any French warhammer 40k books ordered by the Quebec GW stores are being shipped up from the US.
Learned something today. Do they sell Codex: Adepta Sororitas in French over there? Because here they do not .
It's really sad everything from what I've seen does not get me excited for this new codex. Personally I think this is a result of the "loss" that GW is experiencing financially. I wonder if they are hoping if they send out repackaged crap (can only say that from what I've seen so far I could very well be wrong) to increase profits with the lowest cost to them. They don't need to make new molds. No new models. Just repackage and in "new" box discounts here and there and hope it sells. I really hope my train of thought on this is wrong.
newdigitaltau wrote: It's really sad everything from what I've seen does not get me excited for this new codex. Personally I think this is a result of the "loss" that GW is experiencing financially. I wonder if they are hoping if they send out repackaged crap (can only say that from what I've seen so far I could very well be wrong) to increase profits with the lowest cost to them. They don't need to make new molds. No new models. Just repackage and in "new" box discounts here and there and hope it sells. I really hope my train of thought on this is wrong.
I don't understand either. As it stands, from all the leaks of units, point costs, etc, the result of this codex coming out is buying a codex... and that's it. I need nothing else because they added nothing else (as far as I can tell.) The leaks can't be complete, there must be something they are hiding. After all, look how well they hid the Logan Chariot from people. They can't really expect a new codex to be released with repackaged boxes, with different pictures even though the contents are identical to make them money... can they?
WrentheFaceless wrote: They dont sell a codex in French in France? Thats actually kindof funny
No, it is not. It says to Adepta Sororitas players “We care so few about you that, even though we do translate our announcement for U.S. or Italian or whatever events in French in our White Dwarf daily stuff, we will not translate your codex. Enjoy looking up which English USR correspond to which French USR, sucker!”
WrentheFaceless wrote: They dont sell a codex in French in France? Thats actually kindof funny
No, it is not. It says to Adepta Sororitas players “We care so few about you that, even though we do translate our announcement for U.S. or Italian or whatever events in French in our White Dwarf daily stuff, we will not translate your codex. Enjoy looking up which English USR correspond to which French USR, sucker!”
Otherwise you'd have entire units of termies with 2++ in close combat thanks to their Nemesis Swords.
Nemesis Warding Staves....which are apparently cheaper now if the earlier leaks are true.
There are no rumours that allow the entire squad to get them. In the 5th Ed codex only 1 model per squad can get one.
The leaked army builder screenshots on page 14 show that in a paladin unit any model may take a staff for 5 pts.
Damn
In which case I highly doubt keeping the 2+ Invulnerable. I predict it will have Force Staff stats with whatever Nemesis Weapons have this time around, Daemonbane or something. So +2 Str, AP4, Concussive.
Swords will be AP3
Halberds either Ap 2 Unwieldy 2 Handed or same as now
Falchions same
Doomfist is a Power Fist
Greatsword is Fleshbane, Armourbane, AP1, 2++, FNP, ID, Preferred Enemy, Hatred...the works really.
Otherwise you'd have entire units of termies with 2++ in close combat thanks to their Nemesis Swords.
Nemesis Warding Staves....which are apparently cheaper now if the earlier leaks are true.
There are no rumours that allow the entire squad to get them. In the 5th Ed codex only 1 model per squad can get one.
The leaked army builder screenshots on page 14 show that in a paladin unit any model may take a staff for 5 pts.
Damn
In which case I highly doubt keeping the 2+ Invulnerable. I predict it will have Force Staff stats with whatever Nemesis Weapons have this time around, Daemonbane or something. So +2 Str, AP4, Concussive.
Swords will be AP3
Halberds either Ap 2 Unwieldy 2 Handed or same as now
Falchions same
Doomfist is a Power Fist
Greatsword is Fleshbane, Armourbane, AP1, 2++, FNP, ID, Preferred Enemy, Hatred...the works really.
As of right now Force weapons with exception to the Daemon Hammer are AP3, but I'd kill for more AP2 in the army
agnosto wrote: Also, kind of cut off at the bottom, I assume 2 in every 5 can take a heavy weapon.
Kindof wondering what the Nemesis Banner does
My guess is its a relic like the SM Standard of the Emperor Ascendent. Makes sense because Paladins are the GK equivalent to Honour Guard.
I'm guessing it does everything the Brotherhood Banner does, alongside giving some sort of Fearless AoE for GK and Daemons suffer -1 to all saves within 6" and +1 to Combat resolution.
Can't make out the price for sure on that Strike Squad. Guessing it's supposed to say $60, as a 5man is $33 and it's likely they would offer a slightly lower price for 10. The rest of the products seem to be the same price with just a new box. (Sorry if all this has been said already, hard to keep up with everything.)
I am actually pleasantly surprised at that. Its a completely turn around from when they took the ten man Dire Avengers, cut them down to 5 and charged the same for it.
Whumbachumba wrote: Can't make out the price for sure on that Strike Squad. Guessing it's supposed to say $60, as a 5man is $33 and it's likely they would offer a slightly lower price for 10. The rest of the products seem to be the same price with just a new box. (Sorry if all this has been said already, hard to keep up with everything.)
37.50 GBP price band would put it at 59.25 USD(same as Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard).
Whumbachumba wrote: Can't make out the price for sure on that Strike Squad. Guessing it's supposed to say $60, as a 5man is $33 and it's likely they would offer a slightly lower price for 10. The rest of the products seem to be the same price with just a new box. (Sorry if all this has been said already, hard to keep up with everything.)
37.50 GBP price band would put it at 59.25 USD(same as Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard).
Thanks. Looking at the blured USD, it could be 56, 60 or 63 for what I'm seeing on it. Sometimes I wish I got these early leaked issues so we could have good pictures of them.
I actually like that the assassins are separate now. Depending on if they changed the rules/points costs it will make it MUCH easier to add one to my armies.
Sure it costs an extra few bucks, but if you dont run grey knights and want assassins it is a nice option.
Also they are toning down coteaz so he is not such a no brainer anymore and I also like that. Will be interested in seeing how other rules are changed to compensate for the loses.
If psybolt becomes standard again then a lot of the point costs make sense. Really excited for this release.
Already imagining the combinations for my small GK army that I can work into my imperial forces.
Deadshot wrote: I am actually pleasantly surprised at that. Its a completely turn around from when they took the ten man Dire Avengers, cut them down to 5 and charged the same for it.
I'm cautiously optimistic too, but I'm still looking for the poop.
Min squad size is now 10 maybe? So you need to buy twice as many at a small discount for a CA legal detachment?
EDIT
Nope, went back and checked the leaked army builder pages. Still looks to be min 5.
Is this the bit where I'm stalking some Kronies through the jungle, then Tom jumps out of the bush next to me and I say "clever girl?"
Desubot wrote: Wait they are toning down coteaz? when did this happen?
November 16, 2013... When they released the Codex:Inquisition and put him there and then in a little bit when he officially is removed from Codex:Grey Knights.
Deadshot wrote: I am actually pleasantly surprised at that. Its a completely turn around from when they took the ten man Dire Avengers, cut them down to 5 and charged the same for it.
I'm cautiously optimistic too, but I'm still looking for the poop.
Min squad size is now 10 maybe? So you need to buy twice as many at a small discount for a CA legal detachment?
EDIT
Nope, went back and checked the leaked army builder pages. Still looks to be min 5.
Is this the bit where I'm stalking some Kronies through the jungle, then Tom jumps out of the bush next to me and I say "clever girl?"
It might simply be related to the idea that some players when just coming in to Grey Knights start asking why they don't have a Purifier/Interceptor/Purgation Squad box.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone is scoring now so they removed LoF since it was redundant.
Ahh, I see. I'm still thinking of objective secured like I thought of troops scoring objectives like in 6th. But then I guess during its time in 6th, one of Coteaz's abilities was to grant the ability to secure objectives to henchmen, correct? (that was the big fun ability in 6th, granting that to non-troop units).
With the advent of 7th, the value of any unit that gifted the ability to secure objectives lost value, it wasn't just Coteaz.
Kanluwen wrote: There was no nerf. There was just people "expecting" something.
People were expecting something that was FAQ'd in the Space Marines book to do just that. Pedro (or the SM guy that makes Sternguard scoring) was FAQ'd to make his elite units Objective Secured. Coteaz, in the Inquisition Codex, had the very same rule, vis a vis, logic would say that he too would make his guys Objective Secured and thus, making the Codex a big boy Codex. Then GW makes an update that defies their previous actions and takes this away, making the Codex, a name which used to imply a stand alone effective product, essentially just a character generator and not much else. And pretty much invalidated folks' armies who ran complete Inquisition as competing without Objective Secured is a fool errand.
So yes, sorry for folks, including myself, using a bit of reasoning when drawing conclusions when purchasing a $35 codex and then having a key function drastically changed 6~8 months later and further being a bit upset over it.
WD Officio Assassinorum blurb wrote:...or your Imperial Guard join (albeit nervously) by a psychotic Eversor pursuing his own bloody agenda...
So it's not Astra Militarum?
Also I don't think 'kill everything in a 10km radius' is considered an agenda; Bloody, but not an agenda.
EDIT: Oh and also we need a dataslate to use 4 different models, but will probably only ever use it to take a single model? That's just a friggin outrage!
EDIT: Oh and also we need a dataslate to use 4 different models, but will probably only ever use it to take a single model? That's just a friggin outrage!
Actually, I remember it was, more so when the down turn began... in that oh, so long ago... that December to Remember...
EDIT: Oh and also we need a dataslate to use 4 different models, but will probably only ever use it to take a single model? That's just a friggin outrage!
Actually, I remember it was, more so when the down turn began... in that oh, so long ago... that December to Remember...
Spoiler:
yeah, I guess they where thinking the dataslate had a LOT of fluff, (almost a codex's worth) so it was worth money, but that much for the dataslate..... yeah.. absurd. if they wanted to charge that much they should have billed it as a supplement or something
Yeah the Cypher one surprised a lot of us by being friggin' huge. Still, a whole release for a single character is silly. Thank goodness GW never tried to do... oh... nevermind.
WrentheFaceless wrote: No spin, I think we'd all be better off if you had actually quit like you said you would. That way we wouldn't have to read more of the same from you,...
You don't have to now. The forum has a rather handy 'ignore' function.
Leth wrote: I actually like that the assassins are separate now. Depending on if they changed the rules/points costs it will make it MUCH easier to add one to my armies.
Which, funnily enough, was exactly why they changed them to require an Inquisitor Lord back in 3rd edition... to stop people from just throwing an Assassin into their army to plug holes in their list.
So we've come full circle, there. Although unless the new dataslate buffs them considerably, Assassins admittedly aren't as good as they were back in 2nd ed when everyone was actually using them...
Well I'm sorry that GK players might be getting hosed but I do like the fact that assassins are opening up to folks inquisition style. Hopefully they get some nice rule tweaks, if so I see good times ahead for my kitbashing obsession.
Which, funnily enough, was exactly why they changed them to require an Inquisitor Lord back in 3rd edition... to stop people from just throwing an Assassin into their army to plug holes in their list.
So we've come full circle, there. Although unless the new dataslate buffs them considerably, Assassins admittedly aren't as good as they were back in 2nd ed when everyone was actually using them...
Anpu42 wrote: I think I may have figured out why there really not any point changes and would explain the lack of them as an option.
Everyone gets Psybolt Ammo
Anpu42 wrote: I think I may have figured out why there really not any point changes and would explain the lack of them as an option.
Everyone gets Psybolt Ammo
Makes sense to me, it always struck me as something that should be standard issue
old codex + 7th ed rule set + current FAQs = new codex.
That's pretty much how 7th edition came into being. It's not really a new edition just FAQd 6th edition with a few tweaks.
My thoughts on the current dead horse...
No new models is a bit odd since GW makes most of their money from models. If the points values in the leaked army builder shots are accurate, GKs are still a dreadfully elite army without in-codex options for filler units to bring the model count up or increase volume of fire in a snooty edition of the rules.
Yes we can ally and yes it's more fluffy this way but removal of inquisition removes flavor from the codex along with fairly low point units without adding anything at all (that we know of so far).
Kanluwen wrote: There was no nerf. There was just people "expecting" something.
People were expecting something that was FAQ'd in the Space Marines book to do just that. Pedro (or the SM guy that makes Sternguard scoring) was FAQ'd to make his elite units Objective Secured. Coteaz, in the Inquisition Codex, had the very same rule, vis a vis, logic would say that he too would make his guys Objective Secured and thus, making the Codex a big boy Codex. Then GW makes an update that defies their previous actions and takes this away, making the Codex, a name which used to imply a stand alone effective product, essentially just a character generator and not much else. And pretty much invalidated folks' armies who ran complete Inquisition as competing without Objective Secured is a fool errand.
So yes, sorry for folks, including myself, using a bit of reasoning when drawing conclusions when purchasing a $35 codex and then having a key function drastically changed 6~8 months later and further being a bit upset over it.
And let's see if they actually fix the assassins.
The analogy does not quite work.
Pedro made Sternguard (an elite choice) scoring but they remained in Elites.
Coteaz made Henchman Squads troops and removed the 1 per Inquisitor restriction on them.
However with the advent of C: =I=, I believe they were already troops? So GW decided that because you can field an Inq detachment on its own anyways that rule was unnecessary. So they gave the same ruling for GK. Which meant that GKInq armies were now gone (as they should be, its Codex Grey Knights).
Kanluwen wrote: There was no nerf. There was just people "expecting" something.
People were expecting something that was FAQ'd in the Space Marines book to do just that. Pedro (or the SM guy that makes Sternguard scoring) was FAQ'd to make his elite units Objective Secured. Coteaz, in the Inquisition Codex, had the very same rule, vis a vis, logic would say that he too would make his guys Objective Secured and thus, making the Codex a big boy Codex. Then GW makes an update that defies their previous actions and takes this away, making the Codex, a name which used to imply a stand alone effective product, essentially just a character generator and not much else. And pretty much invalidated folks' armies who ran complete Inquisition as competing without Objective Secured is a fool errand.
So yes, sorry for folks, including myself, using a bit of reasoning when drawing conclusions when purchasing a $35 codex and then having a key function drastically changed 6~8 months later and further being a bit upset over it.
And let's see if they actually fix the assassins.
The analogy does not quite work.
Pedro made Sternguard (an elite choice) scoring but they remained in Elites.
Coteaz made Henchman Squads troops and removed the 1 per Inquisitor restriction on them.
However with the advent of C: =I=, I believe they were already troops? So GW decided that because you can field an Inq detachment on its own anyways that rule was unnecessary. So they gave the same ruling for GK. Which meant that GKInq armies were now gone (as they should be, its Codex Grey Knights).
Makes sense.
From a practical point of view, some tournaments don't all digital-only codices and so no GKInq armies.
No new models does seem really strange, unless they're trying releasing the codex first with new models after? They shouldn't have to worry about IP problems as presumably any new units will have a photo in the dex anyway?
The only reason I suggest this is that no one at my local store tends to order new kits until the dex is out...I know that the rules tend to be previewed in WD but still, ut seems people want the dex before commuting to new units.
Also, I'm glad to see Assassins in a data slate, I can run a Witch Hunter style list with SoB, Inquisitors and Assassins. Woo.
The analogy does not quite work.
Pedro made Sternguard (an elite choice) scoring but they remained in Elites.
Coteaz made Henchman Squads troops and removed the 1 per Inquisitor restriction on them.
However with the advent of C: =I=, I believe they were already troops? So GW decided that because you can field an Inq detachment on its own anyways that rule was unnecessary. So they gave the same ruling for GK. Which meant that GKInq armies were now gone (as they should be, its Codex Grey Knights).
No... In codex: Inquisition, henchmen warbands are elites. The army has a unique FoC that is 1-2 HQ and 0-3 elites with their DT if wanted. In codex: Inquisition, those DT don't have psychic pilots either.
In the recent update, coteaz doesn't make warbands objective secured either... So that's a huge kick in the competitive bits right there. Well... I do fully get where the frustration comes from for a lot of the Old daemonhunter players though. Let me show you what GW has done with this army over the past 10 years for people who started out with them in their earliest days:
Codex: Daemonhunters
Inquisition:was there, only ordo malleus was an option though (there was nothing for ordo xenos and ordo hereticus was in codex:witchhunters). You could take henchmen back in those days, so no probs there.
Assassins: were in there. All 4 of them in the book, but you needed an inquisitor to "unlock them"
Grey knights: were in there. Psycannons were pure infantry killers (no S7rending wonders we know today). If you did go full GK infantry, you'd have ZERO anti-tank troops in your army. Hell, there was even a paragraph in the book in army selection that discouraged newer players from taking this type of force (saying you'd definatly need the emperors blessing to pull it off).
Inquisitorial stormtroopers: remember those guys? That was for the people who didn't want to run GKs or wanted to play a radical inquisitor playstyle. Half of your wargear was not allowed if you played with GK infantry, it really was a bad case of "take this to unlock this" and "avoid this to allow this".
Inducted troops: To flesh out the codex a bit, daemonhunter players were allowed to use some entries from imperial guard and space marines. Many took this option, it was all in one book (mind you, they did reference to the "parent codex" to select them). It was your only decent source of getting some much needed anti-tank options really...
Codex Grey knights:
Scratch the inducted troops and inquisitorial stormtroopers. This was also in the days that allies was not a thing... Effectively scrapping over half of my models. I still have 20 painted kasrkin troops standing around and around 40 IG veterans with a leman russ that were just plain unusable.
If you say: "well, you could still use them as IG, so no worries". There is a HUGE difference in playing a large, fully painted 2500p army on a regular basis, to then be told that you now own 2 small ones in a pointscale that your regular opponents never play. :(
Luckily, you got acces to ordo Xenos and ordo Hereticus inquisition, along with a decent fleshing out of the grey knight section. Still annoyed that there weren't any bikes added though (how much more "knight" can you get than riding your iron steed). Your assasins are still in.
New Codex Grey knights:
Inquisition: GONE, assassins: GONE. All that remains is GK stuff (and that really isn't a lot, I'll do a quick overview in the end).
In order to potentially play an army that you collected over 10 years ago, players now have to buy:
-Codex: Grey knights
-Codex: inquisition
-Codex: astra militarum/tempestus (depending on what you want).
-Codex: Space marines
-Dataslates: Assassins (lord knows they'll try to sell you all 4)
So... you can understand why a few older players have their jimmies rustled. I don't think there has been any army so far that has had such dramatic changes to what you could and couldn't field in one source as the old codex: Daemonhunters.
Also, if no new stuff is added, this is the amount of choices GK players will have in each slot:
HQ: 7 (down from 14)
Elites: 4 (down from 9)
Troops: 2 (same as before, but without Thawn as an option), lowest option possible?
Fast attack: 2 (same as before), lowest option possible?
Heavy support: 6 (same as before).
Grey knights already felt "spammy" before they cut out all those option. I'm afraid that won't get any better under these conditions. They'll also feel more powerwhore like for being forced to take so many different sources just to play with your old models.
TLDR: It's been a long essay, but in response to the "just be happy you are getting something" attitude, some GK players really do have a more than good reason to be slightly upset at yet another splitting up of their army. Especially if they start forcing limited sources for games/tournaments. In essence, you can see your previous army evaporate in front of your eyes.
Kanluwen wrote: There was no nerf. There was just people "expecting" something.
People were expecting something that was FAQ'd in the Space Marines book to do just that. Pedro (or the SM guy that makes Sternguard scoring) was FAQ'd to make his elite units Objective Secured. Coteaz, in the Inquisition Codex, had the very same rule, vis a vis, logic would say that he too would make his guys Objective Secured and thus, making the Codex a big boy Codex. Then GW makes an update that defies their previous actions and takes this away, making the Codex, a name which used to imply a stand alone effective product, essentially just a character generator and not much else. And pretty much invalidated folks' armies who ran complete Inquisition as competing without Objective Secured is a fool errand.
So yes, sorry for folks, including myself, using a bit of reasoning when drawing conclusions when purchasing a $35 codex and then having a key function drastically changed 6~8 months later and further being a bit upset over it.
And let's see if they actually fix the assassins.
The analogy does not quite work.
Pedro made Sternguard (an elite choice) scoring but they remained in Elites.
Coteaz made Henchman Squads troops and removed the 1 per Inquisitor restriction on them.
However with the advent of C: =I=, I believe they were already troops? So GW decided that because you can field an Inq detachment on its own anyways that rule was unnecessary. So they gave the same ruling for GK. Which meant that GKInq armies were now gone (as they should be, its Codex Grey Knights).
Unless they changed things, then C: =I= is 1-2 HQ and 0-3 Elites. They don't have troops at all, period. In C:GK Coteaz made henchmen (an elite choice) troops. BUT in C: =I= Coteaz only made them scoring, but left them as elite choices. So the analogy for C: =I= works perfectly.
Alkasyn wrote: Removing of units is an obvious scam to get you to buy a second book for "Allies". Allies that used to be units from your codex.
But means that any people with other Imperial army's can use Inquisitors and Assassins without buying the GK book, and can buy the data slates. It also removes the weird inconsistencies you have at the moment where the Inquisitor codex has different rules to the GK codex. Yes, they could align them, but that leaves inquisitors stuck as they are, as there are two different sources of rules for the same mini, and lead to all sorts of arguments over which rules take priority, if any, and if you could have the same unique character twice. Splitting them up is not so good for GK players, but much better for everyone else.
I'm glad that Assassins are out. Hopefully if more people use them we'll get some nice new plastic kits in the form of the single clamshell format. Still would love to be able to put Eversors in a drop pod.
Medium of Death wrote: I'm glad that Assassins are out. Hopefully if more people use them we'll get some nice new plastic kits in the form of the single clamshell format. Still would love to be able to put Eversors in a drop pod.
Alkasyn wrote: Removing of units is an obvious scam to get you to buy a second book for "Allies". Allies that used to be units from your codex.
Some of those units never should have been in the GK codex in the first place: Ordo Xenos and Ordo Hereticus inquisitors? They were only there because they had nowhere else to go. Now with wide use of allies, there is no reason Inq can't be a standalone book to support other codices.
Medium of Death wrote: I'm glad that Assassins are out. Hopefully if more people use them we'll get some nice new plastic kits in the form of the single clamshell format. Still would love to be able to put Eversors in a drop pod.
SW allies
Heck, if you go unbound, you can just take the SW pod by itself!
Medium of Death wrote: I'm glad that Assassins are out. Hopefully if more people use them we'll get some nice new plastic kits in the form of the single clamshell format. Still would love to be able to put Eversors in a drop pod.
SW allies
Heck, if you go unbound, you can just take the SW pod by itself!
But why do that when you can grab a Wolf Priest, a bunch of Blood Claws and a Stormfang(? - the one w more transport, less dakka) and stay bound? Unless they change the assassins from being Unique then you'll only ever need the one Pod.
Medium of Death wrote: I'm glad that Assassins are out. Hopefully if more people use them we'll get some nice new plastic kits in the form of the single clamshell format. Still would love to be able to put Eversors in a drop pod.
The problem before was that they had horrific rules in 5th, removal of infiltration and outflanking for them from their original incarnation meant that most of them had to footslog.
Alkasyn wrote: Removing of units is an obvious scam to get you to buy a second book for "Allies". Allies that used to be units from your codex.
Some of those units never should have been in the GK codex in the first place: Ordo Xenos and Ordo Hereticus inquisitors? They were only there because they had nowhere else to go. Now with wide use of allies, there is no reason Inq can't be a standalone book to support other codices.
You know what. I'd be fine with that, if they recognised that "ally" codices (Inquisition, Assassins, Knights and arguably even Grey Knights themselves) are not full codices and should not be priced as such AND if they actually bothered to put the time and effort in to actually writing them properly.
The Inquisition codex in particular is a horrid, slap-dash, money grabbing copy-paste out of the current GK codex, with no effort put into even formatting the unit entries, nevermind fixing some of the glaring issues those units had or looking at what other options could be included.
To summarise; well thought out, fluffy and reasonably priced allies supplements = good, half-hearted butchering of existing material just to sell a shiny new book at premium pricing = BAD.
Coteaz was an undercosted dweeb that got auto-included for his ridiculous rules. You want objective secured troops in your grey knights codex? Run some of those grey knights then instead of alien monkeys, rogue psykers and guardsmen.
Everyone bitching is crazy. As a long time GK player I am super stoked for a new book. My only concern is if psybolt goes but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
Unbound is awesome.
Dataslates are awesome
Formations are awesome
The codex release schedule is awesome
No new kits is a little odd but I wouldn't be surprised to see just one or two. Either way, what we've got is fine. There's not a single GK model that needs redoing.
I think about how I almost wanted to quit 40k a year ago because it was too restrictive. And now, the game is always putting out cool ways to play.
I want a giant dread knight? Cool, I'll buy an imperial knight, convert it and play it. Legally. Now I can run an eversor in my dark eldar if I want? Sure. Awesome.
The game is about imagination and having fun. The Dataslates are cheap enough and as we all know, if something is released online then it'll turn up for free soon enough anyways. I actually end up buying a lot of them after I've previewed by other means just because I think they're rad.
Last year we couldn't run full inquisition detachments and easily add them to whatever. Now you can. That's also awesome.
My only complaint is that Lords of war are too powerful in regular play for tournaments. Every time I bring my c'tan out he just auto wins. Problem solved by TOs is just to not allow them.
The game is in a great spot and is being really well supported.
No other game can come close to the universe and fluff.
It's nice that the Grey Knights codex is about Grey Knights but like other posters have pointed out they could have done with new units. A new bike unit similar to what they did with the Ravenwing.
I don't have a problem with them splitting up Codices like this ASSUMING they are actually adding content to fill the space. If GK have grown too big and need their own codex, that's cool... however (and I could be wrong, I'm not a GK player) it doesn't feel like the GK are actually growing from the split.
7 HQ 4 elites
2 troops
2 FA 6 Heavy support (and that's because there's 3 LR variants in there)
for selection options.
I think that's the least of all "full codexes" out there by a long shot. Even if that was a new codex coming out of nowhere, you'd still think that was kinda sad... :s
I knew it was coming, but this news doesn't make me happy, as i feel for the the people who loved an inquisitorial army who can no longer support it in the manner of the other armies. It was shoe-string before granted, but now the gates fully closed so far as I know. yeah, its great for the various imperial allies that now they can grab the assassins and the inquisition, but I wouldn't be happy about this as a GK player, because it sounds like in book unit options has gone down with little/nothing to replace it. And i KNOW I would be angry so if my army was inquisitorial, because now they are truly "second-string" and limited to working with people, like the Inquisition with its size can't do something on it's own(hey, don't they prosecute Astartes sometimes? can't recall where I heard that, but...).
Really though, this makes me wary after the rapid fire thusfar.
Elmir wrote: Yeah, that's the problem... the book has become:
7 HQ 4 elites
2 troops
2 FA 6 Heavy support (and that's because there's 3 LR variants in there)
Actually, if that configurator in the SW dex is to be believed (and it's looking very likely now that there are no new models announced), it looks like it is becoming:
1 Lord of War (Draigo)
6 HQ (Captain, Stern, Champion, Crowe, Librarian, Techmarine)
3 Elites (Paladins, Purifiers, Dreadnought)
2 Troops (Terminators, Strike Knights)
2 Fast Attack (Interceptors, Stormraven)
2 Heavy Support (Purgators, Dreadknight)
5 Dedicated Transports (Rhino, Razorback and the 3 LR variants)
Elmir wrote: Yeah, that's the problem... the book has become:
7 HQ 4 elites
2 troops
2 FA 6 Heavy support (and that's because there's 3 LR variants in there)
for selection options.
I think that's the least of all "full codexes" out there by a long shot. Even if that was a new codex coming out of nowhere, you'd still think that was kinda sad... :s
AS is:
- 4 HQ - 3 Elites
- 1 Troop
- 2 FA - 3 Heavy support
AS is:
- 4 HQ - 3 Elites
- 1 Troop
- 2 FA - 3 Heavy support
Good point... They reduced GKs to be ALMOST as sad as sisters of battle.... A glorified WD "codex".
At least for Sisters of battle, there is some glimmer of hope that things can change in the somewhat near future. For GKs, it'll be this steaming pile of turd for the next 5 years...
If you're a GK player that is. If you're an Inquisitorial player then you've seen your chosen army get more and more marginalised with each revision.
Hopefully the plan is to expand the inquisition and give it a real book. As it is my Inquisitorial stuff will probably be going on a shelf until that does happen.
That exactly the point Kanluwen... It went from playable army with 1 book, to needing 4 different sources to play with the models you still have.
It's something to be rightfully upset about, Ironically enough, The amount of money I'd have to spend to update to all the new rules (which are really just copy paste for 90%) to play with my old army, is enough to buy me a basic tablet and a fancy hat to go yaaaaarrrr!
Elmir wrote: That exactly the point Kanluwen... It went from playable army with 1 book, to needing 4 different sources to play with the models you still have.
You misread my statement.
My statement was asking what Inquisition units are there, which people could have in such large numbers that they could not reasonably be run from any of those books.
It's something to be rightfully upset about, Ironically enough, The amount of money I'd have to spend to update to all the new rules (which are really just copy paste for 90%) to play with my old army, is enough to buy me a basic tablet and a fancy hat to go yaaaaarrrr!
Well to be fair, MT is unnecessary. So it's two books and a Dataslate at best.
Of course there are no units that don't have no rules for them somewhere...
BTW, if ever did go full blown on the 6 henchmen units for coteaz, that's at least half that you now cannot take in the same army...
And yeah, those 2 codexes and a dataslate is enough these days to buy a basic tablet... Maybe not enough for the fancy pirat's hat on top that I mentioned...
Redemption wrote: 1 Lord of War (Draigo)
6 HQ (Captain, Stern, Champion, Crowe, Librarian, Techmarine)
Actually, it's Captain/Master (the latter an upgrade of the former... We may say 6.5 hqs..
3 Elites (Paladins, Purifiers, Dreadnought)
2 Troops (Terminators, Strike Knights)
2 Fast Attack (Interceptors, Stormraven)
2 Heavy Support (Purgators, Dreadknight)
5 Dedicated Transports (Rhino, Razorback and the 3 LR variants)
Bear with some wishlisting of mine... Not impossible to do (and roughly adhering to the background)
Troops: aspirant paladins (armourless, I'd say bolt pistol + nemesis sword, I imagine scouts with more "ornaments"), one possible named upgrade
Fast: stormtalon, jetbikes - possibly with a nemesis lance option (let me digress: it disturbs me that DAs, a knightly order, does not have lances as an option for bikers... End of digression)
Heavy: some artillery ('psyfire' cannon?)
Another exclusive stormbird, maybe...
Ok, I'll stop rambling and wait... Another couple of weeks before painting/finishing my GKs :p
"warlord may re-roll his warlord trait. Furthermore you can make reserve rolls for the shock troops in the first round. Troops appear at 3+ and are able to run and shoot (or shoot and run). All units must be Grey Knights faction."
raoiley wrote: Unbound is awesome.
Dataslates are awesome
Formations are awesome
The codex release schedule is awesome
Everything is awesome?
Except the financials.... Hey-yo!
Can't see these decisions winning people over. But wait, guys, stop being so negative. Its exciting and fun to have so many options. That is unless your local play group has a two source limit that invalidates your armies....
Okay, so that is the new detachment that is exclusive to Grey Knights...
1 HQ and 1 Troop required is nice...
Special Rules:
Commander of the Brotherhood: When this detachment is the main detachment, you may make a second roll on the Warlord Trait table in Codex: Grey Knights.
Rites of Teleportation: This one was difficult.My friend thinks it is something like this--"Instead of making your reserve roll from the beginning of your second turn, you can, from the beginning of your first turn, make reserve rolls for all units of this contingent which are in part of the reserves. These units will arrive in your first turn with a roll of 3+."
"Additionally, every unit in this detachment can, in the turn in which they come of the shock troop reserve, both run and shoot (in any order)."
What kills me is that there target demographic is about 14 years old. I find the prospect of buying 3 sources financially difficult, how do they expect to increase sales when a kid who recently started playing GK now needs ~100 dollars just in rules for his army let alone the 85 for 7th.
I remember I planned my army list and asked for the things I needed for it as birthday and Christmas (both were close in my case) gifts when I was that age. I needed to scrape and save mowing lawns or shoveling snow for anything else like play materials.
Makes total sense why I haven't seen any new young gamers in the last 2 years at my local shop.
Run and shoot after teleporting in with this formation? Nifty, although I would prefer some sort of improved accuracy with the deep strike itself. I tend to be very unlucky with my scatters.
Red Corsair wrote: What kills me is that there target demographic is about 14 years old. I find the prospect of buying 3 sources financially difficult, how do they expect to increase sales when a kid who recently started playing GK now needs ~100 dollars just in rules for his army let alone the 85 for 7th.
I remember I planned my army list and asked for the things I needed for it as birthday and Christmas (both were close in my case) gifts when I was that age. I needed to scrape and save mowing lawns or shoveling snow for anything else like play materials.
Makes total sense why I haven't seen any new young gamers in the last 2 years at my local shop.
+1.
The low cost of rulebooks has always been a significant factor in jumping between factions/games for me.
Anpu42 wrote: I think I may have figured out why there really not any point changes and would explain the lack of them as an option.
Everyone gets Psybolt Ammo
No way. That is the biggest wishlist statement in the thread.
I can't understand how GK players can seriously make the statement that their infantry is over priced currently.
A tac marine is 14 ppm so using him as a baseline for strikes you still need to add:
-A force weapon
-Brohood of psychers with a power
-a storm bolter
-Deepstrike
Heck a power weapon (not force) is 15ppm and a storm bolter 5ppm from the marine armory.
They are 20ppm now which is way UNDERCOST.
Strikes aren't very good because they inflate whats wrong with all marines. Jack of all trades, master of none. These guys are the slightly higher end version. Its the ignores armor instant death CCW that jacks up their cost. Most GK players I know hardly ever get charge into assaults with strikes so it's easy to forget.
Anpu42 wrote: I think I may have figured out why there really not any point changes and would explain the lack of them as an option.
Everyone gets Psybolt Ammo
No way. That is the biggest wishlist statement in the thread.
I can't understand how GK players can seriously make the statement that their infantry is over priced currently.
A tac marine is 14 ppm so using him as a baseline for strikes you still need to add:
-A force weapon
-Brohood of psychers with a power
-a storm bolter
-Deepstrike
Heck a power weapon (not force) is 15ppm and a storm bolter 5ppm from the marine armory.
They are 20ppm now which is way UNDERCOST.
Strikes aren't very good because they inflate whats wrong with all marines. Jack of all trades, master of none. These guys are the slightly higher end version. Its the ignores armor instant death CCW that jacks up their cost. Most GK players I know hardly ever get charge into assaults with strikes so it's easy to forget.
It was not Wish-Listing. It was based on the fact that just about every MEQ has had a price Drop. Look at Grey Hunters, they got a price drop and then lost there CCW, but then they had to pay to get there CCW back.
I can see the logic of "Lets Drop all of then by 2 points and have them pay 2 points for Psybolt Ammo. Lets Just give it to them, price back to normal."
Running and shooting off a deep strike. All for the low cost of giving up objective secured. Still not worth it.
Folks defending the expensive power armor Grey Knights units.... They are still T4 W1 3+ in an edition of massed shooting that will wound you on 2s. If you're 18+ pts, you're a pretty points sink with a bow on top. Power weapons? Good luck engaging and you still are A1. The power armor Grey knights have always been extremely tepid except for Crowe lists...in 5E. I never saw them run much in comparison to henchman troops plus Grey Knight everything else as that's more effective. By removing that option, you are further gutting the GK.
Reasons to go about releasing a codex but no new models could be:
They plan some big campaign or actual fluff advancement where the GK play an important role. So they had to update the rules even if new models were not done yet.
Or, Matt Ward leaving GW ended up in some legal complications or just anger issues that made GW push a new release of his "master piece".
Or, its a new MO they start using, not that it makes any marketing sense,
I think it's certainly possible that GK are a market test. With their marketing now focused around weekly releases instead of monthly, it allows them to experiment more, as we saw with Orks and SW.
It seems like a valid marketing question -- exactly how much does a rules update drive the sales of existing kits?
TheKbob wrote: Games Workshop does not perform market research.
They do count money, though (at least Kirby does when swimming in his Money Bin). So if a concept fails, they'll propably try something different (without market research).
gorgon wrote: I think it's certainly possible that GK are a market test. With their marketing now focused around weekly releases instead of monthly, it allows them to experiment more, as we saw with Orks and SW.
It seems like a valid marketing question -- exactly how much does a rules update drive the sales of existing kits?
Sound interesting, certainly counters the issue of actually getting GK across the board and into the optimum range. Only one mandatory troops is pretty handy too if you're going heavy in Dreadknights, Pallies and Purifiers.
And another thought. Termy GK with Deathwing Allies. Turn 1deep-striking terminators all round!
Tinfoil Hat: No one was buying the Inquisition codex because the Grey Knight version was so great. So they split them to make us buy dataslates for Inq. AND Assassins.
Tinfoil Hat: No one was buying the Inquisition codex because the Grey Knight version was so great. So they split them to make us buy dataslates for Inq. AND Assassins.
Little less tinfoil hatty but: Why sell 1 codex when you can sell 3
If you can deep strike first turn and shoot all of his ob sec stuff to death, why does it matter?
I'm not sure what type of scrubs you are up against, but there is not "just shoot all his stuff in one turn" options around here... If deepstriking on the first turn was oh so powerfull, the whole tournament scene would be filled with deathwing units, right? Right...
It would be fun to play sure, but I doubt it'll end up high on the competitive scale. I'm going to wait to see what the full codex brings... But right now, I'm not seeing anything exciting that makes up for the disappointment of how limited the options are for this, quite frankly, underdeveloped space marine chapter we are left with.
If you can deep strike first turn and shoot all of his ob sec stuff to death, why does it matter?
I'm not sure what type of scrubs you are up against, but there is not "just shoot all his stuff in one turn" options around here... If deepstriking on the first turn was oh so powerfull, the whole tournament scene would be filled with deathwing units, right? Right...
It would be fun to play sure, but I doubt it'll end up high on the competitive scale. I'm going to wait to see what the full codex brings... But right now, I'm not seeing anything exciting that makes up for the disappointment of how limited the options are for this, quite frankly, underdeveloped space marine chapter we are left with.
But the tournament scene is filled with drop pod armies. Its pretty much that without the pods
If it's every unit it's pretty huge. It could bring back reserve antics and depriving your opponent of a turn and being able to focus your firepower. And with the run move you don't get pasted by templates.
If you can deep strike first turn and shoot all of his ob sec stuff to death, why does it matter?
I'm not sure what type of scrubs you are up against, but there is not "just shoot all his stuff in one turn" options around here... If deepstriking on the first turn was oh so powerfull, the whole tournament scene would be filled with deathwing units, right? Right...
It would be fun to play sure, but I doubt it'll end up high on the competitive scale. I'm going to wait to see what the full codex brings... But right now, I'm not seeing anything exciting that makes up for the disappointment of how limited the options are for this, quite frankly, underdeveloped space marine chapter we are left with.
I'm assuming you've never, ever played against a drop pod army before?
It would be fun to play sure, but I doubt it'll end up high on the competitive scale. I'm going to wait to see what the full codex brings... But right now, I'm not seeing anything exciting that makes up for the disappointment of how limited the options are for this, quite frankly, underdeveloped space marine chapter we are left with.
It might not be top level tournament stuff, but it really did with the ideal of the Grey Knights as a fast, elite precision strike force. Being able to play reserves a turn early gets you more turns of doing damage and guarantees you get first pick of where and how the battle takes place.
The analogy does not quite work.
Pedro made Sternguard (an elite choice) scoring but they remained in Elites.
Coteaz made Henchman Squads troops and removed the 1 per Inquisitor restriction on them.
However with the advent of C: =I=, I believe they were already troops? So GW decided that because you can field an Inq detachment on its own anyways that rule was unnecessary. So they gave the same ruling for GK. Which meant that GKInq armies were now gone (as they should be, its Codex Grey Knights).
No... In codex: Inquisition, henchmen warbands are elites. The army has a unique FoC that is 1-2 HQ and 0-3 elites with their DT if wanted. In codex: Inquisition, those DT don't have psychic pilots either.
In the recent update, coteaz doesn't make warbands objective secured either... So that's a huge kick in the competitive bits right there. Well... I do fully get where the frustration comes from for a lot of the Old daemonhunter players though. Let me show you what GW has done with this army over the past 10 years for people who started out with them in their earliest days:
Codex: Daemonhunters
Inquisition:was there, only ordo malleus was an option though (there was nothing for ordo xenos and ordo hereticus was in codex:witchhunters). You could take henchmen back in those days, so no probs there.
Assassins: were in there. All 4 of them in the book, but you needed an inquisitor to "unlock them"
Grey knights: were in there. Psycannons were pure infantry killers (no S7rending wonders we know today). If you did go full GK infantry, you'd have ZERO anti-tank troops in your army. Hell, there was even a paragraph in the book in army selection that discouraged newer players from taking this type of force (saying you'd definatly need the emperors blessing to pull it off).
Inquisitorial stormtroopers: remember those guys? That was for the people who didn't want to run GKs or wanted to play a radical inquisitor playstyle. Half of your wargear was not allowed if you played with GK infantry, it really was a bad case of "take this to unlock this" and "avoid this to allow this".
Inducted troops: To flesh out the codex a bit, daemonhunter players were allowed to use some entries from imperial guard and space marines. Many took this option, it was all in one book (mind you, they did reference to the "parent codex" to select them). It was your only decent source of getting some much needed anti-tank options really...
Codex Grey knights:
Scratch the inducted troops and inquisitorial stormtroopers. This was also in the days that allies was not a thing... Effectively scrapping over half of my models. I still have 20 painted kasrkin troops standing around and around 40 IG veterans with a leman russ that were just plain unusable.
If you say: "well, you could still use them as IG, so no worries". There is a HUGE difference in playing a large, fully painted 2500p army on a regular basis, to then be told that you now own 2 small ones in a pointscale that your regular opponents never play. :(
Luckily, you got acces to ordo Xenos and ordo Hereticus inquisition, along with a decent fleshing out of the grey knight section. Still annoyed that there weren't any bikes added though (how much more "knight" can you get than riding your iron steed). Your assasins are still in.
New Codex Grey knights:
Inquisition: GONE, assassins: GONE. All that remains is GK stuff (and that really isn't a lot, I'll do a quick overview in the end).
In order to potentially play an army that you collected over 10 years ago, players now have to buy:
-Codex: Grey knights
-Codex: inquisition
-Codex: astra militarum/tempestus (depending on what you want).
-Codex: Space marines
-Dataslates: Assassins (lord knows they'll try to sell you all 4)
So... you can understand why a few older players have their jimmies rustled. I don't think there has been any army so far that has had such dramatic changes to what you could and couldn't field in one source as the old codex: Daemonhunters.
Also, if no new stuff is added, this is the amount of choices GK players will have in each slot:
HQ: 7 (down from 14)
Elites: 4 (down from 9)
Troops: 2 (same as before, but without Thawn as an option), lowest option possible?
Fast attack: 2 (same as before), lowest option possible?
Heavy support: 6 (same as before).
Grey knights already felt "spammy" before they cut out all those option. I'm afraid that won't get any better under these conditions. They'll also feel more powerwhore like for being forced to take so many different sources just to play with your old models.
TLDR: It's been a long essay, but in response to the "just be happy you are getting something" attitude, some GK players really do have a more than good reason to be slightly upset at yet another splitting up of their army. Especially if they start forcing limited sources for games/tournaments. In essence, you can see your previous army evaporate in front of your eyes.
Exalted.
GW keep jackin with the army, and the changes are always stifling.
I'm loving the idea of the Assassins being split off. Now I can add a Vindicare to my Tau list for fun. Before, if I wanted to do that I would have to take at least an HQ and two Troops. This dataslate hopefully eliminates that tax.
Losing the Inquisition also makes sense with the existence of a Codex: Inquisition. It's Codex: Grey Knights, not Codex: Ordo Malleus or Daemonhunters.
I'm assuming you've never, ever played against a drop pod army before?
Actually, part of the hardness of the drop pod army lies in the fact that it's filled with objective secured (which was my first point, if you actually read the previous comment) droppods that your opponent needs to put resources into to eliminate. That is very different to what GKs will be doing. That GK formation will play more like the deathwing than droppod armies.
Now if they were getting droppods, then we'd be talking competitive...
Elmir wrote: At least for Sisters of battle, there is some glimmer of hope that things can change in the somewhat near future. For GKs, it'll be this steaming pile of turd for the next 5 years...
Why would there be more hope for Sisters rather than for Grey Knights ?
Its not GWs fault that tournaments are limiting sources.
That being said that formation is pretty powerful. OB Secured only matters if they are alive to contest. If you are not taking many troops anyway then you are not really losing much.
Why would there be more hope for Sisters rather than for Grey Knights ?
Not a lot, but at least sisters aren't almost 100% sure at this stage that their future codex (that will last a few more years) will be a diluted version of what it is now...
Unless of course, they plan to add more stuff to GKs in the form of dataslates. Some interviews with the devs mentioned that they would like to do more of that....
TheKbob wrote: Running and shooting off a deep strike. All for the low cost of giving up objective secured. Still not worth it.
Folks defending the expensive power armor Grey Knights units.... They are still T4 W1 3+ in an edition of massed shooting that will wound you on 2s. If you're 18+ pts, you're a pretty points sink with a bow on top. Power weapons? Good luck engaging and you still are A1. The power armor Grey knights have always been extremely tepid except for Crowe lists...in 5E. I never saw them run much in comparison to henchman troops plus Grey Knight everything else as that's more effective. By removing that option, you are further gutting the GK.
I acknowledge that and it's a problem with the core of the game. Just because strikers are not efficient doesn't suddenly justify them not paying for upgrades.
Like it or not they are a tac marine with an additional 4-5 perks, those need to be bought or the game makes even LESS sense.
I personally never said they were good. They are priced appropriately however.
I've always only ever run pure GK, never like Inquisition mostly because no plastic models (and my failcast Cortex had a warped face and TH).
So glad to see pure GK just got a massive boost.
You say that, but they'd be much better if you took a bunch of servo skulls from the Inq codex.
Grand masters and Brother-Captains can take skulls too.
Currently yeah. I would be shocked if all the gear in the current book holds over. Look at wolves they lost talismans and necklaces. Both have been around MUCH longer. The grenades and skulls were inquisition gear that for some reason appeared in almost ever IC's options.
I've always only ever run pure GK, never like Inquisition mostly because no plastic models (and my failcast Cortex had a warped face and TH).
So glad to see pure GK just got a massive boost.
You say that, but they'd be much better if you took a bunch of servo skulls from the Inq codex.
Grand masters and Brother-Captains can take skulls too.
You say that...
Can't see the option there, which might mean it's off the bottom of the screen, but I'd say if it were to be included, it would be visible with other similar kit that is visible.
Hulksmash wrote: If it's every unit it's pretty huge. It could bring back reserve antics and depriving your opponent of a turn and being able to focus your firepower. And with the run move you don't get pasted by templates.
Given an option I'd take that any day over obsec.
Yea except interceptor will still hit you while your clumped up. Watch those Riptides throw some hurt your way.
Then add the fact that it's an elite army that needs 3+ rolls to arrive and the fact no one has fleet meaning of the 2/3 that arrive a further 1/6 will remain in ripe pie plate formation.
I doubt it will be awesome for power armor, but maybe mass termina.... oh right terminators still suck in 40k.
Still betting rhinos and combat squads are much better.
Oversimplification. And Tau aren't the hotness right now. Intercept isn't huge. And combat squading happens.
Honestly it depends on if it's all units or just strikes. Just strikes and it's bad. All units that can deepstrike (i.e. DK's, Paladins, and Characters, and such) is good.
Elmir wrote: Not a lot, but at least sisters aren't almost 100% sure at this stage that their future codex (that will last a few more years) will be a diluted version of what it is now...
For all we know, there is likely going to be at least one more Codex: Grey Knight after the one which is coming in the next weeks before we get any new Sisters model…
And we have been diluted for the two last codecies anyway.
I've always only ever run pure GK, never like Inquisition mostly because no plastic models (and my failcast Cortex had a warped face and TH).
So glad to see pure GK just got a massive boost.
You say that, but they'd be much better if you took a bunch of servo skulls from the Inq codex.
Grand masters and Brother-Captains can take skulls too.
You say that...
Can't see the option there, which might mean it's off the bottom of the screen, but I'd say if it were to be included, it would be visible with other similar kit that is visible.
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Drop pods are a little more reliable when deep striking compared to teleporting in, which is what makes them good.
Of course, I say this as someone who nearly always scatters at least 6" every damn time with my GKs. A HIT on the scatter die is a miracle to be celebrated.
Hulksmash wrote: Oversimplification. And Tau aren't the hotness right now. Intercept isn't huge. And combat squading happens.
Honestly it depends on if it's all units or just strikes. Just strikes and it's bad. All units that can deepstrike (i.e. DK's, Paladins, and Characters, and such) is good.
Just have to wait and see.
Not really, 40k is painfully sinple. I think your overcomplicating it really. If it works as leaked, it is flat out a worse version of drop pods. Worse AT, Worse anti MC, huge mishap potential all on sub-efficiently equipped/priced units.
And combat squads is far less awesome without obsec or a transport to do it from.
If you plan on running minimum troops, then sure it could be ok, but that's only because your not using obsec to it's full potential to begin with.
Kanluwen wrote: Am I the only one seeing Teleport Homers there?
Teleport homers need to be there at the start of the turn. No idea why you keep harping on about them like it matters much.
Because nowhere in that Detachment description does it say you place the entire army in Reserve...
So you think it will be easy to get these units with teleport homers into enemy territory before turn 1 or 2? Why are we teleporting when you have discovered this wonderful strategy we all missed! (I am just teasing btw )
Kanluwen wrote: Am I the only one seeing Teleport Homers there?
Teleport homers need to be there at the start of the turn. No idea why you keep harping on about them like it matters much.
Because nowhere in that Detachment description does it say you place the entire army in Reserve...
So you think it will be easy to get these units with teleport homers into enemy territory before turn 1 or 2? Why are we teleporting when you have discovered this wonderful strategy we all missed! (I am just teasing btw )
To be fair, it's not like there is anything stopping you from taking the Grey Knight detachment as your primary and having an IG detachment as a secondary.
A pair of Scout Sentinel squadrons(one or two models each) with Augur Arrays on, make your Scout moves and have the GK deep strike in on top of them with no scatter provided they are within 6" of the Scout Sentinels.
And that is, of course, ignoring that Heavy Support options are takeable by that Detachment. Land Raider with a teleport homer, anyone?
Yea random trash.
Maybe. Or maybe there is one that allows for models to not scatter when deep striking or for the Warlord to grant Infiltrate/Outflank or things like that.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is. Which is fine, and maybe those things will happen. Then again a warlord trait that always gives you first turn could exist too. Maybe one that gives you an extra turn even.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is. Which is fine, and maybe those things will happen. Then again a warlord trait that always gives you first turn could exist too. Maybe one that gives you an extra turn even.
Those things are much less likely than an infiltrate or deep strike manipulating WT though.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is.
As silly as this is, I'm really not trying to. I'm simply trying to point out that it really is a bit early to make that judgement.
Which is fine, and maybe those things will happen. Then again a warlord trait that always gives you first turn could exist too. Maybe one that gives you an extra turn even.
The various Warlord Traits of late seem to be "themed" relating to the army they are tied to. I really could see something like Deep Striking units from your army do not Scatter or really powerful/strange ones like that.
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Such as? It seemed pretty complete to me - assuming regular GW stance on ignoring problems in a codex and just changing a few point costs here and there.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is. Which is fine, and maybe those things will happen. Then again a warlord trait that always gives you first turn could exist too. Maybe one that gives you an extra turn even.
Those things are much less likely than an infiltrate or deep strike manipulating WT though.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is.
As silly as this is, I'm really not trying to. I'm simply trying to point out that it really is a bit early to make that judgement.
Which is fine, and maybe those things will happen. Then again a warlord trait that always gives you first turn could exist too. Maybe one that gives you an extra turn even.
The various Warlord Traits of late seem to be "themed" relating to the army they are tied to. I really could see something like Deep Striking units from your army do not Scatter or really powerful/strange ones like that.
Fair enough, you may be right. I just prefer to discuss whats been leaked and not guessing that a WT will make it work.
From the leaked page it sounds fun, but not very reliable.
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Such as? It seemed pretty complete to me - assuming regular GW stance on ignoring problems in a codex and just changing a few point costs here and there.
Oh I dont know, warlord traits, weapon profiles, unit statlines, yknow everything that wasnt wargear and options.
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Such as? It seemed pretty complete to me - assuming regular GW stance on ignoring problems in a codex and just changing a few point costs here and there.
Oh I dont know, warlord traits, weapon profiles, unit statlines, yknow everything that wasnt wargear and options.
You mean the stuff that's never included in those army builders?
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Such as? It seemed pretty complete to me - assuming regular GW stance on ignoring problems in a codex and just changing a few point costs here and there.
Oh I dont know, warlord traits, weapon profiles, unit statlines, yknow everything that wasnt wargear and options.
You mean the stuff that's never included in those army builders?
pretty much. and he's right, it's a bit early to get toooo upset as we don't know the full story, and yeah the formation could be useless, although I could see it being pretty spiffy under the right circumstances. as for the teleport homer issue, one idea that comes to mind if warlord traits don't improve it is allies.
Ally in a small space Marine force and you'd got a pretty good set up that way.
take a SM Librarian, a scout squad, and a scout biker squad, and you have 2 infiltrating teleport becons, and a additional warp charge for 203 points.
We'll see when the codex comes out, those leaks were full of massive holes everywhere
Such as? It seemed pretty complete to me - assuming regular GW stance on ignoring problems in a codex and just changing a few point costs here and there.
I was actually impressed by the SW codex in that regard, it wasn't just a bunch of almost random points tweaks, they genuinely changed a lot of things in the direction of good balance. Compared to a couple of other recent codices which just felt like a reprint with some random shuffling of balance with no overall improvement.
They're advisors, with a few henchmen with wibbly wobbly abilities.
The Inquisition is whatever it wants to be. It's not centralised nor is it Codified sometimes, they operate in numbers sufficient to be reasonably considered an army. .
And yet not a single bit of that suggests they are an army.
Text deleted. Don't modify other people's words in a manner which alters their meaning. --Janthkin
Yeah they field forces the size of an army but do not operate a standard structure. An Inquisition Codex would be super awesome if it focused on the Three Ordos and how that would effect FOC and units available.
pretre wrote: I think he's saying that it is too early to poo-poo it. For all you know, one of the character has a Huron-esque Warlord Trait .
I think he is just being the contrarion that he always is.
As silly as this is, I'm really not trying to. I'm simply trying to point out that it really is a bit early to make that judgement.
No, actualy, you kept bringing up teleport homers as a great tactic for turn 1 deep strikers, and some people explained why that tactic is flawed. The possibility of a WT that could combine infiltrate and teleport homer came in later to save your pride.
Not that a relevant WT is far fetched, mind.
They're advisors, with a few henchmen with wibbly wobbly abilities.
The Inquisition is whatever it wants to be. It's not centralised nor is it Codified.
And yet not a single bit of that suggests they are an army.
We don't play full army forces. We play games of hinge points in battles with smaller combat groups. The Inquisition fits well within the scope of the game.
They're advisors, with a few henchmen with wibbly wobbly abilities.
The Inquisition is whatever it wants to be. It's not centralised nor is it Codified.
And yet not a single bit of that suggests they are an army.
We don't play full army forces. We play games of hinge points in battles with smaller combat groups. The Inquisition fits well within the scope of the game.
maybe maybe not, most of the time in the novels where an inqusitor shows up he's useally leading a team assmbled from other Imperial assists. as well as a few of his own henchmen. the Inqusitions standing army consists of the death watch and the grey knights.
ideally we'd have a codex for the grey knights with ordo mallaeus, and a codex for the death watch with ordos xenos.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Might be hope for the fluff. I've seen stuff pop up about Ward leaving GW, unless they copy/past ofcourse. No idea if it's true.
I hope they do tone it down. though i think the damage was already done and added to with BL no?
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Might be hope for the fluff. I've seen stuff pop up about Ward leaving GW, unless they copy/past ofcourse. No idea if it's true.
I hope they do tone it down. though i think the damage was already done and added to with BL no?
They added the part about Draigo vs Mortarion, but they changed it (If I'm remembering right) from Draigo single handily besting him in combat to it taking the combined might of nearly every GK present to defeat him, with Draigo doing the heart carving thing after Morty was already more or less vanquished.
They added the part about Draigo vs Mortarion, but they changed it (If I'm remembering right) from Draigo single handily besting him in combat to it taking the combined might of nearly every GK present to defeat him, with Draigo doing the heart carving thing after Morty was already more or less vanquished.
They re-did that book? Or was it inside one of the books. I haven't read the current Grey Knights Codex.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Might be hope for the fluff. I've seen stuff pop up about Ward leaving GW, unless they copy/past ofcourse. No idea if it's true.
I hope they do tone it down. though i think the damage was already done and added to with BL no?
Depends.
If they go with the earlier stuff, maybe, but Emperor's Gift was decent.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Might be hope for the fluff. I've seen stuff pop up about Ward leaving GW, unless they copy/past ofcourse. No idea if it's true.
I hope they do tone it down. though i think the damage was already done and added to with BL no?
They added the part about Draigo vs Mortarion, but they changed it (If I'm remembering right) from Draigo single handily besting him in combat to it taking the combined might of nearly every GK present to defeat him, with Draigo doing the heart carving thing after Morty was already more or less vanquished.
Except if you read the Grey Knight codex...that was pretty much already the case.
They added the part about Draigo vs Mortarion, but they changed it (If I'm remembering right) from Draigo single handily besting him in combat to it taking the combined might of nearly every GK present to defeat him, with Draigo doing the heart carving thing after Morty was already more or less vanquished.
They re-did that book? Or was it inside one of the books. I haven't read the current Grey Knights Codex.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Might be hope for the fluff. I've seen stuff pop up about Ward leaving GW, unless they copy/past ofcourse. No idea if it's true.
I hope they do tone it down. though i think the damage was already done and added to with BL no?
They added the part about Draigo vs Mortarion, but they changed it (If I'm remembering right) from Draigo single handily besting him in combat to it taking the combined might of nearly every GK present to defeat him, with Draigo doing the heart carving thing after Morty was already more or less vanquished.
Except if you read the Grey Knight codex...that was pretty much already the case.
Except no. I have the codex right in front of me. Page 15 in the timeline: "ALONE AND UNAIDED Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's guard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name onto the Daemon's vile heart"
His Wardness had Draigo defeat Morty all by himself.
Except no. I have the codex right in front of me. Page 15 in the timeline: "Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's guard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name onto the Daemon's vile heart"
His Wardness had Draigo defeat Morty all by himself.
I guess you're ignoring the fact that there was an entire "battle" going on, huh?
Except no. I have the codex right in front of me. Page 15 in the timeline: "Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's guard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name onto the Daemon's vile heart"
His Wardness had Draigo defeat Morty all by himself.
I guess you're ignoring the fact that there was an entire "battle" going on, huh?
I just quoted from the codex word for word. Nothing in it suggests that Draigo-Sue had any help defeating Mortarion. He did it all by himself.
What's your source?
Oh and I forgot the sentence right before the one I wrote:
Kanluwen wrote: And yet not a single bit of that suggests they are an army.
You really are very good at telling people what they can't have.
Yes, let's keep pretending that is what is happening.
And no, the Inquisition isn't an army. But there can be Inquisitors who put together armies.
Which is great--but what does that have to do with the Grey Knights?
There's a Codex: Inquisition. It is a supplemental book. It is no different than the Imperial Knights or Militarum Tempestus.
Azreal13 wrote: Kana for those of us who are just dipping in and out of the thread, could you briefly summarise what the hell it is you're arguing?
Per his usual he is scraping up anything and everything to argue against. I have no idea what he is talking about anymore he is holding on at least 3 arguments currently i think.
Can't you just ignore him? I'm more interested in the GK news rather than his incessant attempts to disagree with everyone and their grandmother. I did put him on the ignore list but you keep quoting his posts, much to my chagrin.
I've got to say how much I love the fact that the Purifier Squad has the exact same models as the Strike Squad box, just half as many, yet doesn't cost half what the Strike Squad box does.
Unless they've changed something (which I doubt), anyone who buys the Purifier box is a complete rube.
Azreal13 wrote: Kana for those of us who are just dipping in and out of the thread, could you briefly summarise what the hell it is you're arguing?
The easiest way to figure out what Kan is talking about on any given day is to read what the discussion is about. Once you've ascertained what the topic is, Kan will naturally hold the opposite opinion to that.
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the purifiers have an upgrade sprue or something...
or at least sufficant heavy weapons to fit out a purgation squad
Man, I always thought the Grey Knight Strike/Purgation/Purifier squad box was a great deal. One of every melee weapon type except the hammer and warding stave which you only use 1 or two per squad and two of each special weapon. Compare that to a tactical marine box where you only get 1 of each kind of special weapon, a missile launcher and a power sword. One box lets you make bare-bones marines, the other lets you make three units with almost any loadout.
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the purifiers have an upgrade sprue or something...
or at least sufficant heavy weapons to fit out a purgation squad
Man, I always thought the Grey Knight Strike/Purgation/Purifier squad box was a great deal. One of every melee weapon type except the hammer and warding stave which you only use 1 or two per squad and two of each special weapon. Compare that to a tactical marine box where you only get 1 of each kind of special weapon, a missile launcher and a power sword. One box lets you make bare-bones marines, the other lets you make three units with almost any loadout.
I coul;d be wrong as I've not looked at the box all my GKs right now are termies (I oinly just started my GK army about a week or two before the news of the upcoming codex hit and thus resulted in my placing a freeze on new purchases), I'm just hoping for 4 psy canons
Remember, the Inquisition book is a codex, not a supplement. Codex used to strongly imply a stand alone army before it got watered the crap down by stupid things like instant-lose space ghosts and 1 model with a 5pt weapon swap. And that book has taken a strong blow from the edition change and an update that made it pretty much a supplemental force from a being a viable army like before, which is crap. I feel like I should be able to get a refund on it for that change.
We'll wait and see what rules leak next week as I doubt the White Dwarf has much if there's nothing new. If anything, we can probably just base the entire book off one unit entry and the amount of changes made to it (better or worse).
I guess maybe GW is a rules company too, I hope that the new rules at least give some nice new options.
GW has been nothing but a rules company, used to hock plastic, for a long time. It's only been beaten over our heads this past 8 months. The GK release is just showing that the model team can't keep up with the ease and cheap ROI of paper products.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Was waiting for someone to claim that "The 10 man box isnt a discount, its the 5 man box thats over priced nya nya nya"
*slap*
I didn't say either. The 10-man box is the 10-man box. There's nothing wrong with it. It's fine. But why do five of the exact same models cost more than half the 10-man box?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Was waiting for someone to claim that "The 10 man box isnt a discount, its the 5 man box thats over priced nya nya nya"
*slap*
I didn't say either. The 10-man box is the 10-man box. There's nothing wrong with it. It's fine. But why do five of the exact same models cost more than half the 10-man box?
...yeah, I would expect a small discount for buying more of something.
I have heard of entire supermarket chains who base their business models on this concept of bulk purchases.
Spoiler:
Oh god, the giant sized boxes!
I don't know why I need a 5 kg jar of Nutella but I am sure I would die a happy man if I had it.
If you need the larger amount, well that is awesome.
If you need the smaller amount? Well why not buy the bigger size as it it a little bit cheaper per model/unit/kilogram/pound/hogshead, even if you don't need them all, or even if you can't eat them all.
wuestenfux wrote: GW is a painting and modelling company. Please have a look at their homepage. The botton ''Gaming'' is no longer there.
Games Workshop is a "Short-term profits" company, not a 'painting and modeling' or 'rules' company.
I mean they've neglected the comprehensiveness and logic of the rules, AND the "modelling aspect" of the hobby. At this point, they are just trying to make a quick buck any way they can.
I think the GK release might well be a shining example of this- releasing the same stuff again, with some of it cut out into day-one-DLC (heh.) A new low, really, assuming it actually plays out like this.
1: Sad no inquisitor in GK, by rumours, as they were good cheap HQ units. The same with assassins, but if my wolvies can use a vindicare that's cool.
2: Draigo. I am one those people who is a tiny comic and film nerd. Lets give draigo the name of Iron man or Thor. Now no-one complains when they cut through an army to find the villain and win nearly single handed, so why complain when a man in huge terminator armour, wielding a sword and shield, kicks ass and defeats Mortarion. They are the same things, heroes do stupid stuff and ALWAYS win, it's the narrative imperative. A hero will always do something brave and fool-hardy and win, look at Sharpe in Sharpe Eagle; pledges to get a french eagle in revenge for death of another officer. Told that is would be suicide and no done, but still goes ahead and gets the eagle. The hero always wins, most of the time. QED Draigo is a hero.
I'm happy even as a BA player this is not rumor. They will be out the codex in less then 2 weeks. But I want them to make sisters as well no fliers and the digital codex removed their land raiders ill even update to plastic if they had them. But imo there was DE and Sisters that needed a new dex to even remotely field them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've got to say how much I love the fact that the Purifier Squad has the exact same models as the Strike Squad box, just half as many, yet doesn't cost half what the Strike Squad box does.
Unless they've changed something (which I doubt), anyone who buys the Purifier box is a complete rube.
But isn't this something we have been complaining about GW, that their basic infantry has got so expensive with the trend of reboxing the kits into smaller units, that building the entire army has got prohibitively expensive? Now, they offer both smaller box for those who don't need to buy full set of 10 Marines to complete their army, plus a larger box of 10 marines with discount for those who are starting the army. Sure, the larger box does not offer MUCH discount, but it's better than nothing. So I say this is actually a positive development. Just wished that they did same to the armies with large model counts.
Except no. I have the codex right in front of me. Page 15 in the timeline: "Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's guard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name onto the Daemon's vile heart"
His Wardness had Draigo defeat Morty all by himself.
I guess you're ignoring the fact that there was an entire "battle" going on, huh?
I just quoted from the codex word for word. Nothing in it suggests that Draigo-Sue had any help defeating Mortarion. He did it all by himself.
What's your source?
Oh and I forgot the sentence right before the one I wrote:
ALONE AND UNAIDED[b
The audio drama they released expands upon this a bit.
.. More or less pull it off IMO, but as ever YMMV.
Draigo
5 Paladins
5 Paladins (both troops)
5 termies (painting WIP, sometimes with Thawn but depends on rumours)
5 Purifiers
5 Interceptors
Dreadknight with sword, incinerator, psycannon and PT
Vindicare Assassin
And can borrow a Libby, Rhinoes, Land Raiders and Stormraven with all the toppings from my SM army
With the original rumours In would have had only 1 Troop and no HQ choice so couldn't field my list. my gaming group also had a house rule against LoW and Unbound for reasons, but we've since agreed based on the trend of the Big Bad HQ (Logan, Ghaz, Draigo) that those LoW are ok. Now I can run the following using the GK detachment
HQ- Brotherhood Champion (gonna buy anyway)
Troops- Terminators
Elites- Paladins (1x 10 or 2x5), Vendread and Purifiers
FA- Interceptors and Stormraven
HS- Dreadknight
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've got to say how much I love the fact that the Purifier Squad has the exact same models as the Strike Squad box, just half as many, yet doesn't cost half what the Strike Squad box does.
Unless they've changed something (which I doubt), anyone who buys the Purifier box is a complete rube.
But isn't this something we have been complaining about GW, that their basic infantry has got so expensive with the trend of reboxing the kits into smaller units, that building the entire army has got prohibitively expensive? Now, they offer both smaller box for those who don't need to buy full set of 10 Marines to complete their army, plus a larger box of 10 marines with discount for those who are starting the army. Sure, the larger box does not offer MUCH discount, but it's better than nothing. So I say this is actually a positive development. Just wished that they did same to the armies with large model counts.
They are branded as two seperate products so they would need a difrenance of some sort wouldn't they ?
Would new players know if they want ten purifiers to get the strike squad box.
Or even would the staff at the store know if players where looking.
Guess we will see come release but it seems a bit shifty if nothing is new in the box.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Was waiting for someone to claim that "The 10 man box isnt a discount, its the 5 man box thats over priced nya nya nya"
*slap*
I didn't say either. The 10-man box is the 10-man box. There's nothing wrong with it. It's fine. But why do five of the exact same models cost more than half the 10-man box?
well a 2x 5 man box takes means an extra box, extra space in the lorry/warehouse/store
so it should be more expenisve than half the 10 man box
1: Sad no inquisitor in GK, by rumours, as they were good cheap HQ units. The same with assassins, but if my wolvies can use a vindicare that's cool.
2: Draigo. I am one those people who is a tiny comic and film nerd. Lets give draigo the name of Iron man or Thor. Now no-one complains when they cut through an army to find the villain and win nearly single handed, so why complain when a man in huge terminator armour, wielding a sword and shield, kicks ass and defeats Mortarion. They are the same things, heroes do stupid stuff and ALWAYS win, it's the narrative imperative. A hero will always do something brave and fool-hardy and win, look at Sharpe in Sharpe Eagle; pledges to get a french eagle in revenge for death of another officer. Told that is would be suicide and no done, but still goes ahead and gets the eagle. The hero always wins, most of the time. QED Draigo is a hero.
Ad 1. Its a pity that there will be no Inquisition in the new codex. Henchmen were cheap point fillers and good for scoring purposes (when using Coteaz).
Not sure if there will be something equivalent in the Inquisiton or AM codices.
Ad 2. I'm not using named characters (bar Coteaz) and so Draigo becoming LotW is not really decisive for me.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Was waiting for someone to claim that "The 10 man box isnt a discount, its the 5 man box thats over priced nya nya nya"
You know the two statements are not mutually exclusive, yeah? If I offer you one of a thing at an inflated cost, and two of a thing at slightly less than double the inflated cost, you would be perfectly entitled to still call both overpriced despite the latter technically offering a discount.
scadianforlife wrote: So...just speculating here...it sounds like we can deepstrike landraiders if they are part of the leaked formation. Am I reading that correctly?
What about dreadnoughts?
No, I guess not.
It says ''alle Einheiten, die sich in Schocktruppen-Reserve befinden'', i.e., deep strikers that are held in reserve.
Ninja'd bro 
