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Post by: Bonesnapper
 Sir Arun wrote:Of course we WILL see dual heavy psycannon dreadknights to bring in some anti horde firepower
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the stats of the heavy psycannon?
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Post by: wuestenfux
 Bonesnapper wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Of course we WILL see dual heavy psycannon dreadknights to bring in some anti horde firepower
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the stats of the heavy psycannon?
I guess its the same as the psycannon but 5'' blast.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 wuestenfux wrote: Bonesnapper wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Of course we WILL see dual heavy psycannon dreadknights to bring in some anti horde firepower
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the stats of the heavy psycannon?
I guess its the same as the psycannon but 5'' blast.
Unless there was massive points drop for it, the Heavy Psycannon is too expensive for what it brings. The Heavy Incineration is far better at Anti-Horde.
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Post by: Elmir
wuestenfux wrote:
Well, against a very shooty or horde army, a GK army with models from the new GK codex only, will play an uphill battle.
Not sure if there is light at the horizon. Termies got cheaper, the same holds for the DK's weapons and teleporter. Moreover, the new GK can deep strike in round 1.
So if played smartly (deep striking to overwhelm one enemy flank), this may work.
It's really sad that they went this route again though. Like I said in my previous force, GK started out as a few squads in a mostly imperial mish-mash, and now they are back to that.
I'm sure you can field good lists with it that will be competitive. I'm just unsure on how tournament organisers are going to respond to all of this. Many of them already try to cut back on the amount of sources you can use. If the only competitive mix you can create with codex grey knights (and I think the cheese will be the new dreadknight), relies too heavily on dragging in 2 other codexes (inquisition and IG/ SM), then I think there will be a lot of cuts to it already.
Mind you, I predict this will work really well with and allied SM army with 2 scouts squads with teleport homer. The teleport homer does mention that it only works for unit entirely made up of models with terminator armor... So it remains to be seen if it'll work for dreadknights or even PAGKs...
If not, maybe locator beacons on drop pod marines for a null deployment tactic going second turn... but then you would forgo your first turn deepstrike with GKs. This just screams extremely risky to me if your pod marines don't make it past turn 1 though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Unless there was massive points drop for it, the Heavy Psycannon is too expensive for what it brings. The Heavy Incineration is far better at Anti-Horde.
That... and open topped vehicles now. If they can carry 2 of the same now, you can roast most units inside open topped transport fairly easily. It's also random hits, so a good chance to destroy pesky elements inside units. I know my regular DE opponent now craps his pants whenever something with (heavy) incinerators gets close to him. I like my blasterborn medium well done... 
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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, the new GK can do some form of alpha strike via deep striking at first turn.
I hope there will be some measure to reduce the risk of deep striking them as well.
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Post by: oldone
I do feel like this book is going to be made with the relics, also thinking about having knights with knights? :p what do you guys think? The problem I see is flyers but they have been nerf a bit and hopefully psyilfemen wiill deal with them.
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Post by: wuestenfux
 oldone wrote:I do feel like this book is going to be made with the relics, also thinking about having knights with knights? :p what do you guys think? The problem I see is flyers but they have been nerf a bit and hopefully psyilfemen wiill deal with them.
Well, Psyflemen can deal with them. They are now Elite and so don't interfere with DK's being HS.
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Post by: agnosto
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: wuestenfux wrote: Bonesnapper wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Of course we WILL see dual heavy psycannon dreadknights to bring in some anti horde firepower
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the stats of the heavy psycannon?
I guess its the same as the psycannon but 5'' blast.
Unless there was massive points drop for it, the Heavy Psycannon is too expensive for what it brings. The Heavy Incineration is far better at Anti-Horde.
Depending upon the horde you're facing, the gatling psilencer might do, especially if we're allowed to double-up weapons on the dreadnight. It's on S4 vs. non-daemons but at 12 shots per weapon, you're looking at 24 shots.
The heavy psicannon has rending on that 5" pieplate too (currently).
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
On the other hand, there's no way to model Psybolt Ammunition, so as long as there's no Official™ Citadel™ Psybolt™ Conversion™ Kit™, it'll get written out like everything else that doesn't have a model right this second.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I don't know. I feel like an ignore cover torrent weapon that's st6 ap4 is going to be a better buy everytime over the psilencer. If we really can double up I can't imagine it not being double incinerator. Assuming you catch 4 models under the flamer template (generally the lowest I catch in bigger units) the kill rate is the exact same as a psilencer but cheaper. And as you get more dudes under there the template only gets better.
Worst part about this codex is the force org limit tournaments are putting on army building. (assuming you already have the inquisition codex and don't use assassins)
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Post by: wuestenfux
 Hulksmash wrote:
Worst part about this codex is the force org limit tournaments are putting on army building. (assuming you already have the inquisition codex and don't use assassins)
Not sure what you mean here.
In the new codex, you could take 2 DK's ( HS slots) and up to 4 Dreads (Elite slots).
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Post by: Deadshot
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
On the other hand, there's no way to model Psybolt Ammunition, so as long as there's no Official™ Citadel™ Psybolt™ Conversion™ Kit™, it'll get written out like everything else that doesn't have a model right this second.
There are plenty of upgrades that don't have pieces. Tau don't even have regulated things for their suit upgrades.
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Post by: Hulksmash
wuestenfux wrote: Hulksmash wrote:
Worst part about this codex is the force org limit tournaments are putting on army building. (assuming you already have the inquisition codex and don't use assassins)
Not sure what you mean here.
In the new codex, you could take 2 DK's ( HS slots) and up to 4 Dreads (Elite slots).
I wasn't referring to anti-tank necessarily. I was refering to tournaments basically making what could have been a very standard army completely unplayable due to only allowing 2 sources (a GK army this Friday could go from 1 source to 3 overnight).
Also the ability to take 2 of the GK Detachments and an Inquisitorial Detachment to make the most of the rules available to the GK isn't possible.
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Post by: TheKbob
Hulksmash wrote:
I wasn't referring to anti-tank necessarily. I was refering to tournaments basically making what could have been a very standard army completely unplayable due to only allowing 2 sources (a GK army this Friday could go from 1 source to 3 overnight).
Also the ability to take 2 of the GK Detachments and an Inquisitorial Detachment to make the most of the rules available to the GK isn't possible.
Game's fault for allowing asinine levels of broken in terms of what allies are in 7E. With the entire Imperium being battle brothers, the rules would be entirely open for abuse with multi-sourced Voltron lists of death. I don't like it because it's basically screwed my armies over, so I did the rational thing. Sold almost all of them and swore off GW products. Hate the game (company), not the players.
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Post by: Hulksmash
 TheKbob wrote: Hulksmash wrote: I wasn't referring to anti-tank necessarily. I was refering to tournaments basically making what could have been a very standard army completely unplayable due to only allowing 2 sources (a GK army this Friday could go from 1 source to 3 overnight). Also the ability to take 2 of the GK Detachments and an Inquisitorial Detachment to make the most of the rules available to the GK isn't possible.
Game's fault for allowing asinine levels of broken in terms of what allies are in 7E. With the entire Imperium being battle brothers, the rules would be entirely open for abuse with multi-sourced Voltron lists of death. I don't like it because it's basically screwed my armies over, so I did the rational thing. Sold almost all of them and swore off GW products. Hate the game (company), not the players.
Me thinks you doth speaketh out of your hind end  But seriously, I've yet to see these voltron lists of death people discuss. Being a BB is all well and good but the thing that made deathstars super was psychic powers. Those are ridiculously more difficult to rely on than before. I'm also not "hating" on players. I'm saying that playing the game the way it's written might be the best route. Limiting force orgs actually helps BB armies far more than unlimited FO's hurt non-BB armies.
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Post by: TheKbob
Hulksmash wrote:
Me thinks you doth speaketh out of your hind end
But seriously, I've yet to see these voltron lists of death people discuss. Being a BB is all well and good but the thing that made deathstars super was psychic powers. Those are ridiculously more difficult to rely on than before.
I'm also not "hating" on players. I'm saying that playing the game the way it's written might be the best route. Limiting force orgs actually helps BB armies far more than unlimited FO's hurt non-BB armies.
Then why is almost every tournament 2 source limited? Or is every TO and game store speaking from their respective hind ends?
Sorry, it's the game being busted. And you want to say "go away for posting negative comments," you're toeing the line of Rule #1. I'm allowed to have an opinion that differs from a positive echo chamber. Realize that GW is doing a lot of bad crap. I perceive this release as negative because it costs more and gives me less; the definition of reduce value. Please, give me a fact on why I should see this as anything but negative?
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Post by: Hulksmash
I can't help myself, I'm bored at work  TheKbob wrote: Hulksmash wrote: Me thinks you doth speaketh out of your hind end But seriously, I've yet to see these voltron lists of death people discuss. Being a BB is all well and good but the thing that made deathstars super was psychic powers. Those are ridiculously more difficult to rely on than before. I'm also not "hating" on players. I'm saying that playing the game the way it's written might be the best route. Limiting force orgs actually helps BB armies far more than unlimited FO's hurt non-BB armies.
Then why is almost every tournament 2 source limited? Or is every TO and game store speaking from their respective hind ends? Sorry, it's the game being busted. And you want to say "go away for posting negative comments," you're toeing the line of Rule #1. I'm allowed to have an opinion that differs from a positive echo chamber. Realize that GW is doing a lot of bad crap. I perceive this release as negative because it costs more and gives me less; the definition of reduce value. Please, give me a fact on why I should see this as anything but negative?
Almost every tournament is not 2-source limited. GT's are by and large 2 source limited but for the stance of BAO it was due to a vote by attendees. Not because the TO's think it's necessarily busted or broken to allow more than 2-sources. It's also a comfortable hold over from 6th for many people. Nova leaned that way this year as well but expects things to shift over the next year. TO's are doing it for financial reasons not because the game is "broken". Some people perceive it as broken (yourself included) but that doesn't actually mean it is and they are easing people into 7th because otherwise they both stand to lose enormous amounts of money. And because small events follow large events it's not crazy to see other tournaments implementing them. It's not so much the negative comments I think he's referring to. Those are valid. The problem is that right now you are the equivelant of a howler monkey that's angry with the runs. You don't contribute to the conversation in a reasonable manner. You screech and fling pooh (negative comments) but don't seem to be willing to discuss in a rational manner. I understand your anger at your percieved reduced value. I agree in many ways in that I'm not a fan of splitting elements out of a book that have been in it for several editions. That said I love GK's. To me the positives of this release include the following: -Cheaper Psycannons for Terminators & Purgators -Cheaper Incinerators on Interceptors -Cheaper meelee weapons for everyone except hammers for Purifiers -The force org special rule for turn 1 deepstrike -Insanely cheaper Jump DK w/possible dual same weapons -Cheaper Terminators -Cheaper Libbies in TA -Full shift of Dread to Elite to not compete with the DK's -I'm going to be able to use my GK's again! (seemingly) And that's just on the information we have. We don't know wargear or special rules. We don't know specifics yet. Could there be some bad coming? Yep. And if it does come I'll discuss the good with the bad. But I'll DISCUSS it. I won't just howl. The hind end comment is due to the fact that you make a broad generalization without seeming to understand how the game actually works now. What Voltron list is suddenly unstoppable and broken in unlimited Battle Forge (i.e. rulebook battle forged)? I'm genuinely asking. I'm giving you the opportunity to prove your point. Break the game. And by break the game I mean make an army that statistically functions well over the course of 6 games.
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Post by: BrianDavion
TheKbob wrote: Hulksmash wrote:
I wasn't referring to anti-tank necessarily. I was refering to tournaments basically making what could have been a very standard army completely unplayable due to only allowing 2 sources (a GK army this Friday could go from 1 source to 3 overnight).
Also the ability to take 2 of the GK Detachments and an Inquisitorial Detachment to make the most of the rules available to the GK isn't possible.
Game's fault for allowing asinine levels of broken in terms of what allies are in 7E. With the entire Imperium being battle brothers, the rules would be entirely open for abuse with multi-sourced Voltron lists of death. I don't like it because it's basically screwed my armies over, so I did the rational thing. Sold almost all of them and swore off GW products. Hate the game (company), not the players.
except the biggest thing you complain about is the 2 source limit, which is purely an artifical construct of the players and one that makes absolutly zero sense anyway. the more allies you load up on the less big things you'll have the points to take.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
H.B.M.C. wrote:
On the other hand, there's no way to model Psybolt Ammunition, so as long as there's no Official™ Citadel™ Psybolt™ Conversion™ Kit™, it'll get written out like everything else that doesn't have a model right this second.
Fairly sure upgrades dont fall under that
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Post by: TheKbob
Hulksmash wrote:
Almost every tournament is not 2-source limited. GT's are by and large 2 source limited but for the stance of BAO it was due to a vote by attendees. Not because the TO's think it's necessarily busted or broken to allow more than 2-sources. It's also a comfortable hold over from 6th for many people. Nova leaned that way this year as well but expects things to shift over the next year. TO's are doing it for financial reasons not because the game is "broken". Some people perceive it as broken (yourself included) but that doesn't actually mean it is and they are easing people into 7th because otherwise they both stand to lose enormous amounts of money. And because small events follow large events it's not crazy to see other tournaments implementing them.
It's not so much the negative comments I think he's referring to. Those are valid. The problem is that right now you are the equivelant of a howler monkey that's angry with the runs. You don't contribute to the conversation in a reasonable manner. You screech and fling pooh (negative comments) but don't seem to be willing to discuss in a rational manner. I understand your anger at your percieved reduced value. I agree in many ways in that I'm not a fan of splitting elements out of a book that have been in it for several editions. That said I love GK's. To me the positives of this release include the following:
-Cheaper Psycannons for Terminators & Purgators
-Cheaper Incinerators on Interceptors
-Cheaper meelee weapons for everyone except hammers for Purifiers
-The force org special rule for turn 1 deepstrike
-Insanely cheaper Jump DK w/possible dual same weapons
-Cheaper Terminators
-Cheaper Libbies in TA
-Full shift of Dread to Elite to not compete with the DK's
-I'm going to be able to use my GK's again! (seemingly)
And that's just on the information we have. We don't know wargear or special rules. We don't know specifics yet. Could there be some bad coming? Yep. And if it does come I'll discuss the good with the bad. But I'll DISCUSS it. I won't just howl.
The hind end comment is due to the fact that you make a broad generalization without seeming to understand how the game actually works now. What Voltron list is suddenly unstoppable and broken in unlimited Battle Forge (i.e. rulebook battle forged)? I'm genuinely asking. I'm giving you the opportunity to prove your point. Break the game. And by break the game I mean make an army that statistically functions well over the course of 6 games.
Two source belongs in another thread, but long story short is all the major game playing going on in my area is two source limited. And it's for the perceived (or real) problem of game balance. It invalidated my SoB army and it now invalidates my GK army. I don't know of any terrible lists because people are not focusing on building them. It's the two source limit, why waste effort on anything else? Again, take it up with the community as a whole, and not me. It impacts me by making it impossible to play the armies I want. Baby meet bath water. Spin the rest of the "updates" of the Grey Knights all you want. What is equivalent to an errata update in other games is now nearly a double cost increase to lose access to 9+ units which further makes the total cost over $90. Spin me right round, baby. And again, you can already 1st turn deep strike with Mordrak. OH, WAIT... that got deleted! To sell you a formation that lacks OBSEC. And you're just intercept bait with overpriced 3+ power armor dudes with weak firing potential if everything is mech'd up. And then there's non-Paladin terminators... we know how good those are this edition. I'm not screeching or flinging poo. My comments are negative if you think the facts of the matter are negative. How many times in the past few releases have we been hearing the chorus of "just one more leak, it'll be okay!" And they get worse and worse. Deleted units, lost wargear, lost rules, lost ARMY BUILDS invalidating individual's hard work and effort. Again, these are facts. If stating these and hammering GW for it is perceived as negative, then maybe you're taking an unreasonable or irrational stance of favoritism; or what the lay person calls "Fanboy." The numbers are all against the "pro- GW" stance in terms of sales and in the releases. I'm flat out getting jacked over this release. Many others have pointed this out. What's the problem with stating it besides it going against the "pro- GW" choir? BrianDavion wrote:
except the biggest thing you complain about is the 2 source limit, which is purely an artifical construct of the players and one that makes absolutly zero sense anyway. the more allies you load up on the less big things you'll have the points to take.
It's not artificial, it's actually within the guidelines of the BRB. Black and white, players choose what rules are in and out. And sense or not, I'm hindered and held to it. And you don't need allies when you can throw in formations that bypass restrictions of HQ/Troops. The positive look is to say "No, we as a community say feth this" and stick to our guns. Let these releases tank and let GW know this is not what we want. We know they don't conduct market research, but when revenue dries up, they'll either sink or swim. By just saying "it's all good!" when it's really bad is both ludicrous and only further gets us more schlock like this. If you care about 40k, you'd want to ensure that you're growing the game, not polluting or dividing it. Other games release new product and they expand their universe or create additions to existing strategies. With the past 4 releases, Games Workshop has done nothing but delete strategies and units. This is a bad thing. It's negative. Pointing it out isn't negative unless you have an irrational view or don't play other games.
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Post by: Hulksmash
TheKbob wrote: Two source belongs in another thread, but long story short is all the major game playing going on in my area is two source limited. And it's for the perceived (or real) problem of game balance. It invalidated my SoB army and it now invalidates my GK army. I don't know of any terrible lists because people are not focusing on building them. It's the two source limit, why waste effort on anything else? Again, take it up with the community as a whole, and not me. It impacts me by making it impossible to play the armies I want. Baby meet bath water.
Actually I'd say take it up with YOUR community. Granted, if you engage in the same level discourse with them you do here I don't see it changing. That said approaching it in a reasonable manner has effected change in communities. An area I played in in California with the longest run of successful monthly RTT's in SoCal only limits certain LoW. No other limitations on Battleforged. So there are communities doing that don't have these epic issues. And I know I trust a community of fairly competitive players to break it if it's legal in their area. And it doesn't seem to be breaking. It's not hard facts but it's more evidence than simply screeching it's broken. Spin the rest of the "updates" of the Grey Knights all you want. What is equivalent to an errata update in other games is now nearly a double cost increase to lose access to 9+ units which further makes the total cost over $90. Spin me right round, baby.
All codex updates are basically errata with an extra unit or two. It's been that way since 3rd edition. And it's less than 2/3's a cost increase for the actual codex. Or the same if you purchase the digital edition. Losing units sucks and spreading stuff out over several publications sucks. No question. However your blowing it out of proportion. And again, you can already 1st turn deep strike with Mordrak. OH, WAIT... that got deleted! To sell you a formation that lacks OBSEC. And you're just intercept bait with overpriced 3+ power armor dudes with weak firing potential if everything is mech'd up. And then there's non-Paladin terminators... we know how good those are this edition.
Modrak deepstriking is completely different from 2/3 of an army deepstriking. So Modrak and friends I could get 2 new DK's. One DK does more damage turn 1 than Mordraks unit ever could. Again your making assumptions. Obsec isn't the be all, end all. Some things are worth losing it. Deepstriking 2/3 of my list on turn 1 is totally worth it. I'm not screeching or flinging poo. My comments are negative if you think the facts of the matter are negative. How many times in the past few releases have we been hearing the chorus of "just one more leak, it'll be okay!" And they get worse and worse. Deleted units, lost wargear, lost rules, lost ARMY BUILDS invalidating individual's hard work and effort. Again, these are facts. If stating these and hammering GW for it is perceived as negative, then maybe you're taking an unreasonable or irrational stance of favoritism; or what the lay person calls "Fanboy." The numbers are all against the "pro-GW" stance in terms of sales and in the releases. I'm flat out getting jacked over this release. Many others have pointed this out. What's the problem with stating it besides it going against the "pro-GW" choir?
Nope, I stand by the screeching monkey flinging poo comparison. Fact is that not everyone share the same idea of how the game works or enjoys it the same way. Generally those people are open to reasonable discource that doesn't come off as petulant and whiney. You seem honestly to be more upset by your local community than 40k in general. Take it up with them. Personally Orks have been good. Space Wolves have been good. I think pure GK are going to be good. Do both Orks and Space Wolves have supplements that make them better? Yep. But they are still good codexes. I'm not "pro- gw" outside of enjoying playing their games. I am against some of their business practices. My personal purchasing of GW has waned heavily since 5th edition. I play other games now that I enjoy quite a bit. But I still enjoy 40k. Your issues seem to be cost and army building related. One I empathize with and would weigh the fun I would get from the purchase against the cost. The other though is a local issue and you should attempt to work on it locally. And with that I'm off work and no longer need to be entertained. Thank you sir
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Post by: Tannhauser42
TheKbob wrote:Please, give me a fact on why I should see this as anything but negative?
Umm, we didn't get "Squatted?" Yeah, that's all I got.  I do feel your pain, although I never played an Inquisitorial/Demonhunters list. I played pure Grey Knights. Sometimes I threw in a single OM Inquisitor (never used Coteaz) and maybe an assassin for lulz, but I've been a loyal Grey Knights player since the first DH book came out (and I've had a GK terminator squad since 2nd Edition before that). So, I've had my army go from "never came close to winning" to "almost always winning" and now it seems it will be "maybe I might have a chance to win" I don't see a whole lot to truly like in these rumors thus far. We're getting some things, but losing others, and I fear the losses (like Psybolt ammo) cannot be made up for by what we're getting.
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Post by: Redemption
One little tidbit I found interesting: the little ad for the 10 man box on the GW site mentions:
Capture key objectives with a precision teleportation strike from the Grey Knights vanguard.
"Precision teleportation strike"? Could just be a fluff bit or ad nonsense of course, but perhaps they is some rule that helps with deep striking accuracy (besides teleport homers).
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Post by: Tannhauser42
 Redemption wrote:One little tidbit I found interesting: the little ad for the 10 man box on the GW site mentions:
Capture key objectives with a precision teleportation strike from the Grey Knights vanguard.
"Precision teleportation strike"? Could just be a fluff bit or ad nonsense of course, but perhaps they is some rule that helps with deep striking accuracy (besides teleport homers).
We can only hope, but I fear it is the former, rather than the latter.
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Post by: BlackRaven1987!!
So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!
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Post by: Elmir
One of the lightpoints is the fact that heavy support is freed up massively. I hate to sound like a broken record, but with DT for landraiders, dreads moving to elites... That frees up heavy support to just spam the new underpriced dreadknights.
If those dreadknights can still activate force, you'll have the perfect answer for almost all MC spam. Their heavy incinerators will be awesome if you can get 2 of the same too. So there's definatly things to make this list work... I wouldn't worry about them becoming auto-lose... This list, if the rumours are correct, will be able to do something (except kill heavy armor at range).
It's just sad to go from a book that was well known for having a plethora of highly competitive builds, is going to a monobuild one... Not only because of internal balance, but also because there's almost no frigging options in each slot.
Most lists gravitate towards the most point effective entry in a certain battlefield role. That's a given. But with most codexes, you get more than 2 choices for each slot... How can you expect to toy around and experiment with lists if there's so little choice to begin with. :(
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Post by: -DE-
I'll tell you what you're getting - you're getting sodomized in the name of profit.
If I was a GK player, this here so-called update would be the last straw.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
 -DE- wrote:
I'll tell you what you're getting - you're getting sodomized in the name of profit.
If I was a GK player, this here so-called update would be the last straw.
If you're an Inq player with a little GK sprinkled in, maybe
If you're a pure GK player, not so much
And we still dont know the final fate of psybolts
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Post by: Auswin
Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.
Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.
Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.
I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?
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Post by: Elmir
 WrentheFaceless wrote:
If you're an Inq player with a little GK sprinkled in, maybe
If you're a pure GK player, not so much
And we still dont know the final fate of psybolts
Well, that pretty much sums it up right there. Everything is just fine, as long as you are not somebody who's just seen their army and all the effort (or money, whichever is most important to you) go up in smoke...
BTW, that "maybe" in the first line, is something you can replace with "for sure"...
Will players adapt and get over it, most likely. Does that make it ok what they just did, not really... It's stuff like this that makes people have a weird love-hate relationship with GW. They love the lore/universe, but hate the completely unethical business practices of the makers. This is just chapter 200+ in how GW screws over their fanbase again. Too bad they have such a cool IP and cool models, huh. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Auswin wrote:
Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.
Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.
I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?
Actually, I'm fine with a "brotherhood of psykers" not manifesting the same powers are full psykers. Their psychic mastery shows through in many other ways, not the least in the fact that they are the only ones able to manifest it somewhat reliably. The primaris is very silly indeed though. But that hardly matters if most squads get hammerhand by default, sometimes with more tossed in, like purifiers.
Oh... and I don't think the Aegis defence line will be that good for GKs. Don't forget that a GK dakka dread's best friend is a landing platform. I'll take that 3++ over and ADL anyday. Also, you might want to consider comms relay over quadgun for GKs...
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Post by: Auswin
 Elmir wrote:
Actually, I'm fine with a "brotherhood of psykers" not manifesting the same powers are full psykers. Their psychic mastery shows through in many other ways, not the least in the fact that they are the only ones able to manifest it somewhat reliably. The primaris is very silly indeed though. But that hardly matters if most squads get hammerhand by default, sometimes with more tossed in, like purifiers.
Oh... and I don't think the Aegis defence line will be that good for GKs. Don't forget that a GK dakka dread's best friend is a landing platform. I'll take that 3++ over and ADL anyday. Also, you might want to consider comms relay over quadgun for GKs...
Dakka dreads are very good, don't get me wrong -- but if psybolts are gone then they're demonstrably worse. Not pointless, but worse. It means no longer being able to glance out AV14, in an army that loses a lot with the absence of Jokeros.
The psychic stuff is a mixed bag. Yes sanctic is technically "their tree" but there's a reason nobody risks rolling doubles to take sanctic like they do with maelific -- the payoff isn't there. We'll see what units get which powers by default, but for an army in direct opposition to demons it would have been nice to see more variety. Heck, Demons got Maelific AND their God powers. Knights get very little relatively speaking.
I suppose I'm just used to getting excited when a new Codex is released. Not "Oh, I'm dropping $50 for less of everything."
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Post by: Experiment 626
Auswin wrote:Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.
Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.
Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.
I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?
So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.
My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.
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Post by: -DE-
WrentheFaceless wrote:If you're an Inq player with a little GK sprinkled in, maybe
If you're a pure GK player, not so much
And we still dont know the final fate of psybolts
Even if you're pure GK, you get the privilege to pay $50 for no new units AND you still lose stuff (likely many upgrades, Mordrak and his ghost knights, Space Jesus...). Where's the upside to that?
Why would you pay for a blatant downgrade? At least other armies get something new along with the codex update. GK get a warlord table, a couple relics, and some numbers shuffled around. For fifty bucks. FIFTY! For one evening's worth of work. Truly, we are blessed!
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
Experiment 626 wrote:So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"...
Because a single Lascannon shot is oh-so-effective at taking down armor in this edition...
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Post by: Auswin
Experiment 626 wrote: Auswin wrote:Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.
Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.
Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.
I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?
So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.
My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.
So the solution is an over-costed, inferior Devastator squad? That doesn't sound like a good thing.
Psyfleman dreads were really good, they were also a much-needed force multiplier for an army that were at a severe weight of fire disadvantage. Not sure two TL lascannon shots on a dread suddenly fixes an army that's already extremely expensive in an edition where MSU mech is the standard in most lists.
I wouldn't be holding out hope that GK will suddenly be balanced vs. Demons -- not going to happen. If anything it seems they'll be tooled even more to only being able to deal with demons. Let's see if they can scratch Eldar or Tau before weight of fire decimates them on turn 3.
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Post by: Elmir
Experiment 626 wrote:
So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon? I'm pretty sure that covers "long ranged anti-tank"... maybe now there will be a reason to go Las/Auto instead of the catch-all, "was moronically under-pointed to begin with" Psyflemen that so many hobbled around on under the 5th ed book.
My biggest hope is that this time around, GK's won't have a crapload of over the top BS that effectively auto-wins vs. Daemons.
Well it doesn't look like you have the faintest idea of what's going on then.
GKs still have a crapload of stuff that will make it an uphill struggle against daemon. If you think the reason the psyfleman was spammed was only because it was good, you are sadly mistaken. It was the ONLY 24"+ weapons we could reliably get, outside of the pitifull "godhammer" landraider or the pitifull TL lascannon/ ML dread you previously mentioned. They don't even fire enough shots to possibly bust a tank in 1 turn.
If psybolt is out, that's a huge blow to GKs... That psyfleman dread was the only real longe range Anti-Tank Grey knights had. If something is undercosted, up the points cost maybe? A much fairer price for psybolt would have indeed been 15-20 points for a vehicle... That would have made sense. But to cut it out completely leaves a huge hole in the arsenal of a GK player. It was very poorly thought out. But then again, very poorly thought out bests describes this copy-paste-cut codex that's coming out now. :(
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Post by: Auswin
To try and be a little more optimistic: I hope the relics are good. Sometimes relics can really make or break a list. A few good ones paired with some small tweaks could make the GK a good alpha strike army.
It's just disheartening to feel like there will only be one or two semi-decent GK builds.
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Post by: TheKbob
Elmir wrote: Well it doesn't look like you have the faintest idea of what's going on then. GKs still have a crapload of stuff that will make it an uphill struggle against daemon. If you think the reason the psyfleman was spammed was only because it was good, you are sadly mistaken. It was the ONLY 24"+ weapons we could reliably get, outside of the pitifull "godhammer" landraider or the pitifull TL lascannon/ ML dread you previously mentioned. They don't even fire enough shots to possibly bust a tank in 1 turn. If psybolt is out, that's a huge blow to GKs... That psyfleman dread was the only real longe range Anti-Tank Grey knights had. If something is undercosted, up the points cost maybe? A much fairer price for psybolt would have indeed been 15-20 points for a vehicle... That would have made sense. But to cut it out completely leaves a huge hole in the arsenal of a GK player. It was very poorly thought out. But then again, very poorly thought out bests describes this copy-paste-cut codex that's coming out now. :(
To add, they also lost the ability to cause explosion results in 7E, thus making the S8 Ap4 shots only reliable at hull point stripping and only able to glance Land Raiders. Otherwise, there's a great limit on how GK now can handle a Land Raider without the Vindicare Assassin, Monkeys with Lascannons, or cheap Melta Acolytes. Automatically Appended Next Post: Hulksmash wrote: Nope, I stand by the screeching monkey flinging poo comparison. Fact is that not everyone share the same idea of how the game works or enjoys it the same way. Generally those people are open to reasonable discource that doesn't come off as petulant and whiney. You seem honestly to be more upset by your local community than 40k in general. Take it up with them. Personally Orks have been good. Space Wolves have been good. I think pure GK are going to be good. Do both Orks and Space Wolves have supplements that make them better? Yep. But they are still good codexes. I'm not "pro- gw" outside of enjoying playing their games. I am against some of their business practices. My personal purchasing of GW has waned heavily since 5th edition. I play other games now that I enjoy quite a bit. But I still enjoy 40k. Your issues seem to be cost and army building related. One I empathize with and would weigh the fun I would get from the purchase against the cost. The other though is a local issue and you should attempt to work on it locally. And with that I'm off work and no longer need to be entertained. Thank you sir
Orks, good? Deleted characters and armies. Space Wolves good? Deleted characters and armies AND added stupid models that defy the fluff and show placation towards the lowest common denominator. Both had price increases. Please explain this "good". There's a difference between liking and good. Measurable value decreases are not good. Supplements to make them better? You're defending paying more money to get back what you had? $100 to play an army? On what level of irrationality is this? You're talking about the complete entry cost into almost any other game ($100) for the rules to just continue playing an army. Other game companies do not do this as it would be death to their brand. And the financials of GW all point to this. None of this is flinging poo. I'm pointing to literal facts: bad finances, observable and measurable decreasing value, the invalidation of models and complete armies. The one solace is paying more money to earn the ability to keep playing the same army the exact same way. I see no single logical reason to be "excited" about this. Oh, and stop calling me a "monkey", please. Rule #1. Attack the argument, not the person.
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Post by: ninjafiredragon
Experiment 626 wrote: Auswin wrote:Like all things there's the caveat: "I'll see what happens," but right now it's hard to see how Grey Knights can operate as an individual army army without taking allies -- and I hate that.
Psyfleman dreads are a poor excuse for AA and anti-armor, there's no indication there will be a single weapon in the book that can fire over 24", getting an aegis defense line is fine -- but nobody good can sit behind it.
Putting the sanctic powers in the datacards is insulting. Congrats, the Space Wolves and Orks have more flavor in the psychic phase than the so-called king of the imperium psykers.
I put a lot of hope that in the midst of all the disappointment there might be a new table to help fill in some of the gaps. NOPE, but hey not suffering perils on doubles with a mediocre table with a pointless primaris in most games makes up for it... right?
So apparently GK players have forgotten that Dreads can take a (twin-linked no less) Lascannon?
lol nope, they have not.
And theres a reason why.
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Post by: Kangodo
 BlackRaven1987!! wrote:So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!
Urgh..
1) We hardly know anything except that the Codex will be pure Grey Knights.
2) Psybolt ammunition, Storm Shields, where are you getting your information?
3) Necrons? That is completely "untrue" and there is nothing to suggest they are next. Nevertheless they wouldn't release three Marine-codices in a row when there are still two Xenos-armies left.
Maybe we can wait a week before calling the end of the world as we know it?
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Post by: kestral
Pure grey knights is the end of the world for those of us who played henchmen lists. I hadn't really been paying attention, but unless I missed some labrythine combination of data slates, codexi, unbound craziness and so on there isn't anyway to run a henchman army in storm ravens. Codex Inquistion has no troops and only 3 elites, right? So my favorite army of the last two years is literally gone. It was a niche build I suppose, but it still pisses me off. A lot. I put a ton of modeling love into that build.
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Post by: Kangodo
You can use the Inquisitorial Detachment!
Mandatory: 1 HQ
Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Elites
But yes, they lost Stormravens as Dedicated Transport.
You still have 7 other DT's and can use another Detachment to gain a Stormraven.
I wouldn't call that 'craziness'
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Post by: th3maninblak
Kangodo wrote: BlackRaven1987!! wrote:So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!
Urgh..
1) We hardly know anything except that the Codex will be pure Grey Knights.
2) Psybolt ammunition, Storm Shields, where are you getting your information?
3) Necrons? That is completely "untrue" and there is nothing to suggest they are next. Nevertheless they wouldn't release three Marine-codices in a row when there are still two Xenos-armies left.
Maybe we can wait a week before calling the end of the world as we know it?
We dont know that they wouldnt release 3 marine books in a row. Blood angels would be the next logical step, since they were the last codex that actually LOST things in the 7th ed FAQ. But if necrons and/or dark eldar come out before blood angels (making 3 books that got updated TWICE before a new angels dex) i will be one of the many people on this forum starting a riot at GW headquarters.
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Post by: thraxdown
But if those rumors of de/ba box set are true it'd be worth the wait
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Post by: th3maninblak
thraxdown wrote:But if those rumors of de/ba box set are true it'd be worth the wait
Unlikely. Sanctus reach was a summer only deal. If we see a DE/ BA box set, itll mean another 9+ months before we get either of those two updates.
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Post by: adamsouza
Gw's been dropping a codex a month lately, and we only have Dark eldar, Blood Angels, and Necrons to go ? At this rate we should be complaining about how bad the new Blood Angel's codex is before years end
I've just skimmed through the WD articles and I see no mention of Psybolt ammo.
Any particular reason people think it's going to be dropped ? Isn't it pretty much a staple of GK armies ?
80404
Post by: Red Marine
GW is following the MotG format. With every new edition armys/decks and models/cards will be invalidated. With each new edition you'll have to spend between $100 & $200. Personally i think that's why they've been leaning towards MCs and flyers. That way the big new thing you must buy will net them big bucks.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Hulksmash wrote:
All codex updates are basically errata with an extra unit or two. It's been that way since 3rd edition. And it's less than 2/3's a cost increase for the actual codex. Or the same if you purchase the digital edition. Losing units sucks and spreading stuff out over several publications sucks. No question. However your blowing it out of proportion.
This had to be pointed out. This is one of the poorest arguments I have come across in a long time on these forums. You claim all updates are merely errata plus the bonus of new units, in defense of a book we know has in fact not only failed to gain new units, but has lost around 9..... NINE! Worse yet you point this fact out yourself in the same breath lol.  
It's also incredible your actually telling players that the cost to maintain their army is: "less than 2/3's a cost increase for the actual codex" and "your blowing it out of proportion."
If ever there was justification for calling someone out on White Knighting or fanboy behavior...
Nope, I stand by the screeching monkey flinging poo comparison.
I can honestly say as a neutral party that I find your posts MUCH more annoying then his: "just wait and see!..." Its also poor form to meekishly refer to him as a Gak tossing simian. Seriously dude... If you don't like his opinions that much, hit ignore. Dancing around rule number 1 is bad form.
And with that I'm off work and no longer need to be entertained. Thank you sir
Nanananabooboo I got the last word? Seriously?
Emphasis Mine Automatically Appended Next Post: kestral wrote:Pure grey knights is the end of the world for those of us who played henchmen lists. I hadn't really been paying attention, but unless I missed some labrythine combination of data slates, codexi, unbound craziness and so on there isn't anyway to run a henchman army in storm ravens. Codex Inquistion has no troops and only 3 elites, right? So my favorite army of the last two years is literally gone. It was a niche build I suppose, but it still pisses me off. A lot. I put a ton of modeling love into that build.
Sorry man, I am fine with you using your 5th ed book anytime we get a game in.
15829
Post by: Redemption
 adamsouza wrote:I've just skimmed through the WD articles and I see no mention of Psybolt ammo.
Any particular reason people think it's going to be dropped ? Isn't it pretty much a staple of GK armies ?
It wasn't listed as a possible upgrade on any unit in the GK army builder that was accidentally included in the SW e-codex. So unless that was still incomplete or psybolts are standard for some units, they appear to be gone.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated.
Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.
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Post by: jackblg
I hope every rumour is true for greyknights. hope they get the tyranid treatment.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 BlaxicanX wrote:I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated.
Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.
I don't get this mentality. The last codex that was truly terribad was the Nid one. All others have been at worst, just thoroughly mediocre.
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Post by: Brutishcard
There's just no escaping that this is a horrifically reduced value product.. Surprises me because I thought gk were really popular? The fact that they got utterly smashed in their white dwarf appearance isn't great either... Although maybe that was just unlucky.
I also don't get why deep striking helps? Try that going first against a tau gun line and you will be tabled by turn 2 IF you get lucky with invulnerable saves.
I've bought the book as have been with gk since the deamonhunters days, but will return it just to make a point. The rumours about pulling visions indicate that GW May at least be thinking about those sales figures....
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Post by: Auswin
Brutishcard wrote:
I also don't get why deep striking helps? Try that going first against a tau gun line and you will be tabled by turn 2 IF you get lucky with invulnerable saves.
It doesn't, not really. It feels like a lot of people are saying the answer will be mass deep striking, but if you've played Grey Knights then you know that isn't the answer.
By nature deep striking is a huge risk-reward thing, but the reward is normally that you're dropping in a unit with significant firepower. Unless purifiers are getting access to combi weapons (which they wont) then dropping in a bunch of power armor marines with storm bolters and psycannons scares nobody. Oh, they have a nerfed version of battle focus? Yeah, that wont help.
It's like the GK are being positioned as a huge alpha strike army with nothing scary to back it up. Heck, Deathwing terminators are substantially better than GK termies in every way -- and that's just one part of the DA codex, not the entire army's bread and butter.
This is the most lackluster leadup to a true hardback codex I can remember. Nothing is close to this. Nids lost some things, but over time the army isn't quite as bad as the initial freakout pegged it to be. I'll see what happens, but I fail to see what could possibly be in those pages to make up for an armywide reduction in anything useful. Everything the Grey Knights can do another army can do better. Wolves came in and ate their lunch as being a better anti-psyker unit, better alpha strike with drop pods, better diversity, a new flier and they got their own psychic table to boot.
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Post by: Kirasu
I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..
Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!
88253
Post by: ForeverARookie
Grey Knights are currently the "Jack of all trades, master of none." People like to say we're the masters of close combat, but we don't have an effective counter to Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators. They ignore all our armour saves, and if we field hammers to ignore their armour, they'll still have a 3++ while our Terminators only have a 5++. If our Terminators take the Nemesis Force Sword then they get a 4++ while the enemy Terminators are using their 2+.
Tau out shoots us, and murders us in their ridiculous overwatch. Eldar always move,shoot, and move again making them impossible to assault as they whittle down our forces.
Orks and Tyranids can field tarpits big enough that even perfect rolls won't eat through them before the game ends.
Drop Pods are infinitely better than our deepstrike options.
Etc.
The only way to make Deepstriking viable for the Grey Knights is if they can assault the turn they come in and have reduced scatter.
89067
Post by: Brutishcard
Yeah deep striking is not the answer. Driving around in three land raiders would be more effective. Although you would need 10 land raiders to provide the circa 20 las cannon shots it takes to kill a riptide.
Maybe I'm just hung up on playing without allies... But thing is even with that, you would have to have a serious reason for taking gk as, like you say, most armies can do so much better. I hope this release bombs, but somehow I don't think it will. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Kirasu wrote:I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..
Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!
So true! That said the codex back then was a beauty. Great fluff, badass art and the modelling section was one of the best of any codex ever..
78925
Post by: Sir Arun
except very few people played it because it was such a specialist army.
The last GK codex actually made them interesting and viable as a primary army choice.
We also got a lot of new units.
This codex adds nothing new and only takes things away.
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Post by: ForeverARookie
Brutishcard wrote:Yeah deep striking is not the answer. Driving around in three land raiders would be more effective. Although you would need 10 land raiders to provide the circa 20 las cannon shots it takes to kill a riptide.
Maybe I'm just hung up on playing without allies... But thing is even with that, you would have to have a serious reason for taking gk as, like you say, most armies can do so much better. I hope this release bombs, but somehow I don't think it will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kirasu wrote:I don't understand why S4 storm bolters deep striking is a scary thing? Just play drop pod marines and do better..
Grey Knights seem to be reverting to their power-level in 3rd edition.. IE worst in the game, but we'll see!
So true! That said the codex back then was a beauty. Great fluff, badass art and the modelling section was one of the best of any codex ever..
That really seems to be what GW is going for. They basically said "Yeh, we stole half your units for e-books, but we gave you more fluff... So be happy about it."
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Post by: Brutishcard
Sir Arun wrote:except very few people played it because it was such a specialist army.
The last GK codex actually made them interesting and viable as a primary army choice.
We also got a lot of new units.
This codex adds nothing new and only takes things away.
Oh I completely agree! You'll notice I didn't include the rules in my list of good things! Haha.
I am definitely not happy with more fluff and less rules. Unless it involves Hyperion and is written by ADB.
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Post by: Jidmah
kestral wrote:Pure grey knights is the end of the world for those of us who played henchmen lists. I hadn't really been paying attention, but unless I missed some labrythine combination of data slates, codexi, unbound craziness and so on there isn't anyway to run a henchman army in storm ravens. Codex Inquistion has no troops and only 3 elites, right? So my favorite army of the last two years is literally gone. It was a niche build I suppose, but it still pisses me off. A lot. I put a ton of modeling love into that build.
There is a dataslate for a storm raven and two of the small fliers. You could also get a minimal CAD (count tacticals as PA crusaders) from any marine army to field 3 storm ravens. The inquisition is battlebrothers with the entire empire, so there is no problem in hijacking a couple of planes from them.
ForeverARookie wrote:The only way to make Deepstriking viable for the Grey Knights is if they can assault the turn they come in and have reduced scatter.
No need to insult Blood Angel players any more than necessary
Keep in mind that GK might get some army-wide rules akin to chapter tactics or force multiplying special rules on HQs, like many ork HQs got.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Brutishcard wrote:There's just no escaping that this is a horrifically reduced value product.. Surprises me because I thought gk were really popular? The fact that they got utterly smashed in their white dwarf appearance isn't great either... Although maybe that was just unlucky.
I also don't get why deep striking helps? Try that going first against a tau gun line and you will be tabled by turn 2 IF you get lucky with invulnerable saves.
I've bought the book as have been with gk since the deamonhunters days, but will return it just to make a point. The rumours about pulling visions indicate that GW May at least be thinking about those sales figures....
What would you expect?
In the WD battle report, the GK player placed the GK units all over the place. Two units at one flank, two other at another. Makes no sense. Daemons were obviously able with units at both flanks. I would have been better to keep the units together and down one flank first. Then moving towards the centre and repeat. But this seems to be higher math...
89067
Post by: Brutishcard
Yeah granted they did not play the army very well, and I've also been at the mercy of some lucky draws on the objectives cards (and have to say I think that's the best thing that has happened to the game for a long time).
I have a half built set of ghost knights that I will probably be trying to return to GW..
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Post by: Paradigm
Brutishcard wrote:
I have a half built set of ghost knights that I will probably be trying to return to GW..
Don't waste the effort you've already put into them. Finish up the squad, make it look awesome, and run them as Paladins. It's bad that the option for the Ghosts has gone, but it's better to have cool counts-as than nothing.
By the way, welcome to Dakka!
15829
Post by: Redemption
And who knows, there might still be some relic of some sorts that returns some form of ghost knight. It will only be a few days before more details will leak out - I'd await any buying or selling decisions until all the info is known.
89067
Post by: Brutishcard
 Paradigm wrote:Brutishcard wrote:
I have a half built set of ghost knights that I will probably be trying to return to GW..
Don't waste the effort you've already put into them. Finish up the squad, make it look awesome, and run them as Paladins. It's bad that the option for the Ghosts has gone, but it's better to have cool counts-as than nothing.
By the way, welcome to Dakka!
Haha thanks! I'd been lurking for long enough and felt particularly cheesed with this issue! To be fair there is always the hope that there will be some sort of relic to let you run them. That would actually be kinda cool. Ultimately GW will get my money as I'll probably end up starting up another army.
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Post by: Painnen
Did hear at GenCon that psybolts are gone from the main rule book but are standard special rules for anything chosen from the "Lords of Terra" supplement. So....yet ANOTHER cash grab.
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Post by: lliu
Yeah. I know. I have the new white dwarf.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Jeez, it's like they're begging us to share copies amongst friends.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Painnen wrote:Did hear at GenCon that psybolts are gone from the main rule book but are standard special rules for anything chosen from the "Lords of Terra" supplement. So....yet ANOTHER cash grab.
Heard from who?
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Post by: Mechanical Crow
Hmm, with the space wolf leaked version it looks like the dreadknights can take double heavy weapons of the same kind.
So a double heavy incinerator and personal teleporter is 200pts. Not great not terrible though. 220pts for double psilencers, and 230pts for double heavy psycannons.
Also looks like the fists aren't nemesis anymore either.
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Post by: Redemption
Painnen wrote:Did hear at GenCon that psybolts are gone from the main rule book but are standard special rules for anything chosen from the "Lords of Terra" supplement. So....yet ANOTHER cash grab.
What do the Lords of Terra have to do with Grey Knights?
lliu wrote:Yeah. I know. I have the new white dwarf.
The supplement is mentioned in the White Dwarf? Or are you talking about something else?
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Post by: Anpu42
 Mechanical Crow wrote:Hmm, with the space wolf leaked version it looks like the dreadknights can take double heavy weapons of the same kind.
So a double heavy incinerator and personal teleporter is 200pts. Not great not terrible though. 220pts for double psilencers, and 230pts for double heavy psycannons.
Also looks like the fists aren't nemesis anymore either.
I love the idea of Two sets of Gatling Psilencers.
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Post by: chnmmr
I am really really really hoping that we haven't lost Psybolt ammo. I am not too bothered if the 'Lords of Tera' supplement has psy ammo in it, as long as Grey Knights don't lose it.
It has been in every one of my builds, and allowed me to play a straight grey knight list with very minimal access to high str weapons other than psycannons.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Ok where did this "Lords Of Terra" Thing pop up from, other than one guy saying he heard from another guy about it?
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Post by: Hulksmash
Supposedly it's in the newest white dwarf (the one coming out this weekend)
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Post by: Desubot
So psybolt ammo IS Emperor Psykec poop?
Consider lords of "Terra"?
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Post by: Elmir
Redemption wrote:And who knows, there might still be some relic of some sorts that returns some form of ghost knight. It will only be a few days before more details will leak out - I'd await any buying or selling decisions until all the info is known.
Dataslate ghost knights! And only for $20!
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
 Desubot wrote:So psybolt ammo IS Emperor Psykec poop?
Consider lords of "Terra"?
And is Psyflame ammunition his urine?
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Post by: Eldarain
You'd think it would be.Lords of.Titan if it is GK focused.
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Post by: Desubot
Well i dont know about psyflames but the psybolts are made by anointing it with the psycic goo that pops out of the golden thrown according to the GK book.
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Post by: BlackRaven1987!!
Kangodo wrote: BlackRaven1987!! wrote:So what are we getting exactly? No storm shields, losing half the codex, no new unit, no psybolt ammo, maybe a rule to give us first turn deep strike(something dark angels do much better). I don't know I am havering a really hard time getting excited for this codex update I was really trying to keep a positive attitude, I even posted earlier how not getting a unit is ok as long as they make the units we have better/ cheaper, or even better option like I dint know......STORM SHIELDS!!!! I apologies for rants but my grey knights just got gutted, of course my tyranids still are well tyranids, and I just read in another thread instead of my BA(my pride and joy army) getting updated it is going to STUPID necrons next!!!!
Why just WHY!!!!!
Urgh..
1) We hardly know anything except that the Codex will be pure Grey Knights.
2) Psybolt ammunition, Storm Shields, where are you getting your information?
3) Necrons? That is completely "untrue" and there is nothing to suggest they are next. Nevertheless they wouldn't release three Marine-codices in a row when there are still two Xenos-armies left.
Maybe we can wait a week before calling the end of the world as we know it?
Now if I misunderstood I will stand corrected but according to the most recent rumors I have read on this site
Via necron rumors thread they are next soo yeah there is something to suggest that. Furthermore on the psybolt thing a third of this thread
is people sayin no psybolt ammo, I asked about storm shields and was told unlikely to get them.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Anyone who has claimed anything about psybolts either way has never posted any source to confirm it one way or the other.
Storm shields, unlikely due to the fact that the GK term kit doesnt come with them
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Post by: Painnen
It is lords of Titan. Mistyped. Funny though I read it as Titan each time to myself so never noticed. Source is hardly 100% credible but he did have the white dwarf and owns a shop here in the Midwest .
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Post by: exploited751
WrentheFaceless wrote:Anyone who has claimed anything about psybolts either way has never posted any source to confirm it one way or the other.
Storm shields, unlikely due to the fact that the GK term kit doesnt come with them
People are mentioning there is possibly no psybolt ammo cause the images that were leaked below show no options of purchasing psybolt ammunition as an upgrade. So this means one of four things:
1) It's gone
2) It's an army wide special rule
3) It's gone but could be brought back via formation
4) It's gone but could be brought back via Supplement
http://astropate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/nuovi-cavalieri-grigi-lista.html
This is just normal "the sky is falling" and "my codex didn't come with an auto win button" complaining that occurs with every codex.
Remember most gamers are socially awkward and are very pessimistic.
The codex isn't even out yet and there is the most complaining.
Incoming.... "well my henchmen are gone" well that's good cause you were probably running (2) 3 man squads to fill FOC which is just silly lame thing to do or you were running monkey trucks but probably never even bought the models cause they were expensive and just embarked in chimeras. Also there's an Inquisition codex that came out last year, if you were truly a big fan of the Inquisition, you probably would have already purchased it and shouldn't be complaining. It did come with a few cool relics and a real warlord table.
I have been running pure GKs with good success, I win some and I lose some, I love the look of my army and I have fun.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
I hope with the codex dropping Friday we get some rules leaks soon
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Post by: Mechanical Crow
Wednesday is when it shows up at GWs and all LGSs in north America so I imagine more stuff will leak, and by Friday the brits will have the digital copies at midnight (so 7pm ish for most of north America).
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Post by: Azreal13
Speculation here, but what if Psybolt was an army wide rule that gave all bolt guns and derivatives rending?
Might explain some of the points costing, and the absence of the option, without making it disappear entirely.
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Post by: easysauce
considering that the price drop on teleporters for DK's ALONE makes up the points letting me actually take GK SS's as troops, something I wanted to do but couldnt due to the prohibitivly expensive DK and interceptors with jump packs, I call it a win.
as has been said, everyone who likes the inquisition would have bought their codex, and can still include 3-6 units in their GK army as they did before.
there is a lot that could be going on with the rules, we just simply do not know anything about how the rules will change at this point, everything is based off of a "bug" army builder, which could be 100% off for all we know. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Azreal13 wrote:Speculation here, but what if Psybolt was an army wide rule that gave all bolt guns and derivatives rending?
Might explain some of the points costing, and the absence of the option, without making it disappear entirely.
that would be an awesome rule, not sure its how it will work, but would be awesome if it was.
I would love to see them get true grit back as well
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Post by: Desubot
WrentheFaceless wrote:Anyone who has claimed anything about psybolts either way has never posted any source to confirm it one way or the other.
Woop nvm those are Psyc-out grenades im thinking of.
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Post by: exploited751
Azreal13 wrote:Speculation here, but what if Psybolt was an army wide rule that gave all bolt guns and derivatives rending?
Might explain some of the points costing, and the absence of the option, without making it disappear entirely.
That would seem too good but seems cool though as well.
The problem I see with that is that a psycannon is an assault cannon with psybolt ammo. An Assault cannon already has rending so the psybolt ammo would do nothing for it.
Although it is such a funky gun that isn't a staple to the 40k universe so it's entire stat profile could just be different with the new codex.
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Post by: agnosto
The only way that I view the removal of Inquisition is that I will have less options. It is literally impossible for me to care less about GW fluff; my personal opinion is that fluff has no place in a game unless it actually shapes play. My experience is that if you play any army strictly by fluff, you are likely to lose. Fluff is great for people who like to "forge the narrative" but not great for people like me who would like the ability to take a (singular) army and have the possibility to win with it.
My opinion is that a varied codex with multiple options caters to both styles of play; you have the option to play fluffy and I have the option to include a variety of units in my army lists while we both utilize one (1) codex. The reality is that GW sees an opportunity to monetize unit entries and so has created a system to remove these entries create an electronic product through which to sell them to consumers. I don't like to ally nor flip through multiple sources when I don't recall rules (see my signature line). I play once or twice per month and would rather enjoy the time playing a game rather than easter egg hunting rules through hardback and electronic "books."
This is not "whining" or wishing for "an auto-win button". The codex now has less options than before which means less variety and utility from my purchase. This is not a good thing in my opinion. I'm more than happy to wait and see what comes out later this week but it's not looking so chipper thus far.
YMMV.
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Post by: Desubot
 exploited751 wrote:
Incoming.... "well my henchmen are gone" well that's good cause you were probably running (2) 3 man squads to fill FOC which is just silly lame thing to do or you were running monkey trucks but probably never even bought the models cause they were expensive and just embarked in chimeras. Also there's an Inquisition codex that came out last year, if you were truly a big fan of the Inquisition, you probably would have already purchased it and shouldn't be complaining. It did come with a few cool relics and a real warlord table.
I have been running pure GKs with good success, I win some and I lose some, I love the look of my army and I have fun.
Its still 25 more bucks to play even if they where using them for 3 man mana batteries or filling out mandetory troop choices. fact is people now have to shell out another 25 + 20 to run things they might of gotten in the last book regardless if they are true fans or not.
the only plus side is now i can run assassins without the GK. 
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Post by: exploited751
 agnosto wrote:The codex now has less options than before which means less variety and utility from my purchase.
Which codex are you referring too? The one that hasn't been released yet and there is no leaked images of?
Are you a sorcerer?
Did you cast the level 4 dungeons and dragons spell Scry? Are you reading it now?
TLDR, quote should read the sky is falling.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Well we actually do know there isnt anymore Inq in it due to the leaked builder.
Preliminary and unfinished as it may be
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Post by: exploited751
WrentheFaceless wrote:Well we actually do know there isnt anymore Inq in it due to the leaked builder.
Preliminary and unfinished as it may be
Read your statement again. You literally just typed we do know there is no more inquisition.
And that your statement is based off something preliminary and unfinished.....
Does anyone actually think before they type? I know lots who don't think before they speak but before you type....That is a feat in it's own sir.
Anyways I am not saying the inquisition is going to be in the new book (most likely not) but who knows what rule/point cost changes are going to be in the book to counterbalance it.
Every time a new codex comes out people complain about what they lost. But never mention the amazing things they gained. You are just going to focus on the negative experiences and not the positive ones.
 easysauce wrote:considering that the price drop on teleporters for DK's ALONE makes up the points letting me actually take GK SS's as troops, something I wanted to do but couldnt due to the prohibitivly expensive DK and interceptors with jump packs, I call it a win.
Look at what this person is saying.
The DK, based off preliminary and unfinished information, looks to be 60-70 points cheaper. Sure his sword probably won't be OP, but it seems like it is going to a be a lot cheaper. Overall probably better point for point.
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Post by: agnosto
exploited751 wrote: agnosto wrote:The codex now has less options than before which means less variety and utility from my purchase.
Which codex are you referring too? The one that hasn't been released yet and there is no leaked images of?
Are you a sorcerer?
Did you cast the level 4 dungeons and dragons spell Scry? Are you reading it now?
TLDR, quote should read the sky is falling.
I fail to see the reason for your tone. This thread has leaked images from the army builder built into the iBook version of the codex which has removed all of the inquisition units and assassins from the army. I suppose I could be as rude as yourself and question your eyesight, memory or ability to perform simple problem solving in locating those images.
I did not infer nor outright state that "the sky is falling"; I simply expressed my consternation about losing a fair few units from the current codex which will obviously impact variety of play styles and certainly the number of options available to me. I also expressed my displeasure with being forced to referrence several sources of rules should I choose to continue playing as I have until now.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Considering the fact that the builder didnt have any Inquisition options listed, and the fact that they actually have their own codex. Its a safe bet.
But thats all we have to go off now.
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Post by: Elmir
exploited751 wrote:
Every time a new codex comes out people complain about what they lost. But never mention the amazing things they gained. You are just going to focus on the negative experiences and not the positive ones.
easysauce wrote:considering that the price drop on teleporters for DK's ALONE makes up the points letting me actually take GK SS's as troops, something I wanted to do but couldnt due to the prohibitivly expensive DK and interceptors with jump packs, I call it a win.
Look at what this person is saying.
The DK, based off preliminary and unfinished information, looks to be 60-70 points cheaper. Sure his sword probably won't be OP, but it seems like it is going to a be a lot cheaper. Overall probably better point for point.
Hey everybody, this guy is totally right!
Sure, we might not get any new models. Sure, they may have scrapped 40% of the entries in this codex... But we got some points reshuffling everybody! Cheer up!!!
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Post by: Scolas
Elmir wrote: exploited751 wrote:
Every time a new codex comes out people complain about what they lost. But never mention the amazing things they gained. You are just going to focus on the negative experiences and not the positive ones.
easysauce wrote:considering that the price drop on teleporters for DK's ALONE makes up the points letting me actually take GK SS's as troops, something I wanted to do but couldnt due to the prohibitivly expensive DK and interceptors with jump packs, I call it a win.
Look at what this person is saying.
The DK, based off preliminary and unfinished information, looks to be 60-70 points cheaper. Sure his sword probably won't be OP, but it seems like it is going to a be a lot cheaper. Overall probably better point for point.
Hey everybody, this guy is totally right!
Sure, we might not get any new models. Sure, they may have scrapped 40% of the entries in this codex... But we got some points reshuffling everybody! Cheer up!!!
This guy has a point! 
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Post by: easysauce
well, yeah, its a gain...
I took INQ in my armies because other choices were totally, 100%, not viable compettitively...
if your grey knights army was NOT coteaz + henchmen, you were not feilding the most comp list. every single GK army would take the same thing, and grand masters along with libbies and everything else were horrible choices.
now, I can still take cotez + henchies if I want to, but it looks like the actualy GK choices in HQ will be viable, and lots of stuff might have pts decreases to make pure GK viable.
it will be nice to have the option to take a full GK list without torqumada "auto take" coteaz and his 6 henchment buddies
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Post by: wuestenfux
easysauce wrote:well, yeah, its a gain...
I took INQ in my armies because other choices were totally, 100%, not viable compettitively...
if your grey knights army was NOT coteaz + henchmen, you were not feilding the most comp list. every single GK army would take the same thing, and grand masters along with libbies and everything else were horrible choices.
now, I can still take cotez + henchies if I want to, but it looks like the actualy GK choices in HQ will be viable, and lots of stuff might have pts decreases to make pure GK viable.
it will be nice to have the option to take a full GK list without torqumada "auto take" coteaz and his 6 henchment buddies
The viability of a pure GK army is the main issue in the new codex.
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Post by: agnosto
I often took Inquisitors as my HQ because that freed-up points elsewhere for extra hammers or maybe a teleporter for my DK...
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Post by: Elmir
easysauce wrote:well, yeah, its a gain...
I took INQ in my armies because other choices were totally, 100%, not viable compettitively...
if your grey knights army was NOT coteaz + henchmen, you were not feilding the most comp list. every single GK army would take the same thing, and grand masters along with libbies and everything else were horrible choices.
now, I can still take cotez + henchies if I want to, but it looks like the actualy GK choices in HQ will be viable, and lots of stuff might have pts decreases to make pure GK viable.
it will be nice to have the option to take a full GK list without torqumada "auto take" coteaz and his 6 henchment buddies
Actually, Coteaz and henchies lies broken now. He can only take 3, and now the vehicles they ride in no longer are psychic pilots. Nor are they objective secured. So the nerf bat hit that one really hard.
Also... I don't think you are correct in saying that was the only GK build that was actually viable... It was the most abused, definatly. Mostly because of the silly BB combinations that 7th opened and powerdice generation. But crowe purifier lists (with cleansing flame being cast out of rhino hatches moving 12") and solo palladins with draigo was very strong as well. Just not AS abused as henchmen spam was. So saying any other builds were 100% not viable is bull excrement.
Mind you, nobody here, if you actually read through the thread, is really afraid that the new book won't allow people to field any powerful builds. My gripe (and seemingly I'm not the only one), is that they sucked the soul out of a very fun book to toy around with, and turned into a bland book with very little choices in every FoC slot. On top of that, they are almost forcing you to use allies because of the huge gaps they leave in unit types (longe range Anti-Tank being the most glaring one).
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Post by: wuestenfux
On top of that, they are almost forcing you to use allies because of the huge gaps they leave in unit types (longe range Anti-Tank being the most glaring one).
In view of the leaked information we have, this could be very true.
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Post by: easysauce
agnosto wrote:I often took Inquisitors as my HQ because that freed-up points elsewhere for extra hammers or maybe a teleporter for my DK...
same here,
now that supposedly the teleporters went way down, those pts can go towards actually having GK's in ones army instead of it being coteaz + henchmen + dk's every time.
personally, I am also hoping the hammer on DK's does something now too.
could be a lot of rules changes that we dont know about,
nemisis rules probably will change, lots of wargear might, the relics and WL traits are all new, psychic powers will probably change (have we heard 100% either way about a GK spell chart?) things like true grit and psybolt are still on the table, lots of tweaks through formation rules and detachment rules, things like grand masters grand plan special rule could be a lot different.
wuestenfux wrote:On top of that, they are almost forcing you to use allies because of the huge gaps they leave in unit types (longe range Anti-Tank being the most glaring one).
In view of the leaked information we have, this could be very true.
long ranged anti tank was an issue even with the INQ stuff,
also, codexes are SUPPOSED to have a weakness, and a strength... we cannot all be eldar... is that what you are saying? every codex should be eldar broken and be good at everything?
I am a bit upset about no new models, but considering how much QQ came about when the DK was added (a great unit rules wize, looks wize some simple conversions make it awesome that way too) and that its still a fairly new dex im not too suprised.
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Post by: exploited751
wuestenfux wrote:On top of that, they are almost forcing you to use allies because of the huge gaps they leave in unit types (longe range Anti-Tank being the most glaring one).
In view of the leaked information we have, this could be very true.
Everyone loves money.
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Post by: agnosto
easysauce wrote: agnosto wrote:I often took Inquisitors as my HQ because that freed-up points elsewhere for extra hammers or maybe a teleporter for my DK...
same here,
now that supposedly the teleporters went way down, those pts can go towards actually having GK's in ones army instead of it being coteaz + henchmen + dk's every time.
personally, I am also hoping the hammer on DK's does something now too.
could be a lot of rules changes that we dont know about,
nemisis rules probably will change, lots of wargear might, the relics and WL traits are all new, psychic powers will probably change (have we heard 100% either way about a GK spell chart?) things like true grit and psybolt are still on the table, lots of tweaks through formation rules and detachment rules, things like grand masters grand plan special rule could be a lot different.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing changes in the rules and am cautiously optimistic that there won't be any holes leaving us without a stand-alone army.
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Post by: happygolucky
I see people flailing around saying that reduction in units = The Sky is Falling... Bet GK will still be better than the Orks and CSM codex hehe
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Post by: exploited751
 happygolucky wrote:I see people flailing around saying that reduction in units = The Sky is Falling...
Bet GK will still be better than the Orks and CSM codex hehe
OMG...optimism...in a dakka thread. Sir what are we doing here?
I will say though the CSM book is pretty amazing with the Black Legion book. 6 man sqauds of plasma gun chosen and oblits are pretty crazy. And even with the nerf the helldrake is still a serious threat.(just takes a lil planning to use it, its not just point and click anymore.)
Not to say the book doesn't have it's garbage cause it does. Which does suck because they have some of the coolest models and options available for converting.
As for the GK codex, I am sure we will the see stat line of the Grand Master match that of a SM chapter master. It's kind of sad that the most elite of the elite Space Marine chapter is lead by a GM that has one less wound and can't move and shoot his orbital bombardment (which costs 50 pts) unlike the SM CM.
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Post by: TheKbob
Exploited (ironic name) et al, please let me know how you want your crow prepared. Sous-vide requires a significant lead time and I want the crow eating experience enjoyable for all parties
Remember, sky isn't falling, just GWs financials, specifically their revenues and profits. Making more releases that confuse, frustrate, and alienate fans isn't a winning situation. And there's a signifcant difference between having an auto-win button and having your army go from comp legal to unbound and a request of $50+ to do so. Smart.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
exploited751 wrote: happygolucky wrote:I see people flailing around saying that reduction in units = The Sky is Falling...
Bet GK will still be better than the Orks and CSM codex hehe
OMG...optimism...in a dakka thread. Sir what are we doing here?
I find it sad when we classify "well, it may suck, but at least we aren't those guys" as being optimism.
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Post by: easysauce
it only sucks if you were expecting to be the new eldar, so far the only real honest gripe people have is that they now have to pay for codex INQ and possibly assasins to feild the same units.
which is balanced out by the fat that INQ and ASS will now be available to the whole imperium, so our loss is someone elses gain in that respect. I never needed/wanted to include assasins in my GK, but I LOVED doing it in my IG back in the day, it will be nice to get that ability back
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Post by: Sir Arun
Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
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Post by: Las
Wait what's this about CMs moving and shooting the orbital?
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Post by: pretre
Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
Or, you know, have access to a printer...
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Post by: ForeverARookie
I don't have an IPad, and my Laptop is basically a folding Desktop (17") making it impractical to take anywhere, especially the Gamestore where space is limited and things have a tendency to get scooted or bumped.
That's the main reason I don't like the idea of factions only being available in a digital format. Also, physical books never stop working because the battery died.
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Post by: Desubot
 pretre wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
Or, you know, have access to a printer...
Though horribly ugly you could just transcribe it or shove it into your phone considering most phones today are tablets in them selves.
(unless you still use carrier pidgins)
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Post by: pretre
Codex: Inquisition has about 60 pages of rules in ePub format, btw. Which, when you set to 4UP, means it takes 15 pages of paper (or 8 if you double side them). Certainly easier to carry than an iPad or laptop.
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Post by: exploited751
 Las wrote:Wait what's this about CMs moving and shooting the orbital?
meant to specify in terminator armor. SM Chapter Master can do it, but GKGM cannot.
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Post by: SlyasR
Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
wait... so you're playing warhammer, but feel justified looking down on the dorks who uses computers? I was in the mindset that apple products were more socially accepted nowdays than warhammer... it might be a local thing here though.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
pretre wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
Or, you know, have access to a printer...
Here let me give cynicism a try
Just for you wargamers who dont own a portable tablet or like the feel of a physical copy, direct for you Games Workshop ( TM) Official Codex Paperium, official Games Workshop paper for you to print out your digital codex, sold in packs of 20 sheets for $50!
Howd I do?
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated. Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.
I don't get this mentality. The last codex that was truly terribad was the Nid one. All others have been at worst, just thoroughly mediocre.
The fear for the last few codices was that they would be mediocre, with inclusions of moronic random charts and the completely arbitrary and nonsensical removal of units and special characters.
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Post by: Desubot
WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
Or, you know, have access to a printer...
Here let me give cynicism a try
Just for you wargamers who dont own a portable tablet or like the feel of a physical copy, direct for you Games Workshop ( TM) Official Codex Paperium, official Games Workshop paper for you to print out your digital codex, sold in packs of 20 sheets for $50!
Howd I do?
You can also purchase our 1 click bundle deal and get 2 for 100$
Think of the time you will save!!!!!!!
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Post by: pretre
Ugh.
It bears repeating...
"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
And yes, I know you were attempting satire.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
pretre wrote:Ugh.
It bears repeating...
"For this thread to have some utility and remain useful, please refrain from spamming it with 'jokes'." - Alpharius
And yes, I know you were attempting satire.
This thread technically hasnt been usefull for the last 40 pages or so...
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Post by: TheKbob
WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
Or, you know, have access to a printer...
Here let me give cynicism a try
Just for you wargamers who dont own a portable tablet or like the feel of a physical copy, direct for you Games Workshop ( TM) Official Codex Paperium, official Games Workshop paper for you to print out your digital codex, sold in packs of 20 sheets for $50!
Howd I do?
A+, would read again.
I use an iPad for MayaNet (infinity), War Room (Warmachine), and pdfs for Malifaux (legit Wyrd PDFs). Its a useful tool when app is completely designed for the game.Both MayaNet and War Room are full of all the games rules at one click away. GWs products, even the iBooks, are terrible as they aren't all in one solutions
If you do as they want and run allies, swapping those I/ebooks are terrible. If GW wasn't so hard to rake you over the coals through nickel and dime tactics, an all in one app with one fee, like war room for $60, would do wondrous things for the game.
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Post by: BrianDavion
BlaxicanX wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:I wish there was a way for me to earn money for every time someone in a rumors thread says "it's too early to judge!" before gak hits the fan and our worst fears are validated.
Not a lot of money. Just a few cents per denial.
I don't get this mentality. The last codex that was truly terribad was the Nid one. All others have been at worst, just thoroughly mediocre.
The fear for the last few codices was that they would be mediocre, with inclusions of moronic random charts and the completely arbitrary and nonsensical removal of units and special characters.
in fairness GW's never arbitrarily removed units and characters. every unit and character removed from the codices since 6th edition have all been ones GW has not made minis for. (with the exception of some stuff for IG, those may have been old metal Minis GW just wanted to stop stocking though? did GW even make them as finecast?)
from the prespective of the grey knights the stuff removed makes some sense if you examine where GW seems to be moving. Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad, but for the most part we should proably have expected this. Automatically Appended Next Post: exploited751 wrote: happygolucky wrote:
As for the GK codex, I am sure we will the see stat line of the Grand Master match that of a SM chapter master. It's kind of sad that the most elite of the elite Space Marine chapter is lead by a GM that has one less wound and can't move and shoot his orbital bombardment (which costs 50 pts) unlike the SM CM.
Dragio already has 4 wounds just like generic chapter masters. If you mean the generic grandmaster, I could see GW going eaither way as they could well adopt the stance that they're not real chapter masters and are more like glorified captains.
that said, I suspect we;ll see that 4th wound, as otherwise there's no differance between them and Brother captains save some war gear and special abilities, right now
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Here's the big kit bundle for the GK
£130 ($215) for 22 models
I'll leave it for those more familiar with the range to figure out the saving
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
$60 bucks for the 10 man strikes
$53.75 For the Dreadknight
$50 for the 5 man Paladin box
$33 for the purifier box (5 man purifiers with 4 heavy weapons O.o)
$74.25 for the Land Raider
$271 USD for all of those separately. If my math is correct you save about $56 bucks.
Not bad
Its a pretty good little starter for GK, which they never had
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Post by: Redemption
Nothing about 'Lord of Terra/Titan', unsurprisingly.
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Post by: Hulksmash
After a discounter you could actually wind up with a significant GK army for around $350 if you grabbed 2 of these.
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Post by: Kangodo
Hmm, that's new.
Since when does my country pay more than Germany?
Guess I need to take a bus for 15 minutes to get cheaper stuff :O
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Post by: Auswin
That GW marketing line for the Grey Knight box could be one of my all time favorites.
"The warriors within can be used to create a variety of different squads, depending on what you want in your army!"
I guess three is technically a variety. "Do you want your power armor in grey, grey, or grey with antennas?"
Nice spin, good marketing talk for "You're getting nothing new."
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Auswin wrote:That GW marketing line for the Grey Knight box could be one of my all time favorites.
"The warriors within can be used to create a variety of different squads, depending on what you want in your army!"
I guess three is technically a variety. "Do you want your power armor in grey, grey, or grey with antennas?"
Nice spin, good marketing talk for "You're getting nothing new."
And what do you expect them to claim?
That you can make your Strike Squad into Ultramarine Scouts? Your Paladins into Deathwing Terminators?
Within the GK codex, they can make different type of power armored Grey Knights units.
I dont see how thats any sort of 'spin'
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Post by: Auswin
WrentheFaceless wrote:
And what do you expect them to claim?
That you can make your Strike Squad into Ultramarine Scouts? Your Paladins into Deathwing Terminators?
Within the GK codex, they can make different type of power armored Grey Knights units.
I dont see how thats any sort of 'spin'
They don't need to claim anything. They're pushing what appears to be a half-assed codex out the door with no new models and very likely a lot of things taken out. Then we'll all buy it (me included) because we kind of have to in order to play the army we own.
It's marketing talk. They need to find a way to say something invigorating instead of "Here's the same stuff you've been staring at for three years, but in a new box."
Am I salty this is without a doubt the worst hardback release? Yep, sure am. "Spin" wasn't the right word, just popped into my head.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Auswin wrote:That GW marketing line for the Grey Knight box could be one of my all time favorites.
"The warriors within can be used to create a variety of different squads, depending on what you want in your army!"
I guess three is technically a variety. "Do you want your power armor in grey, grey, or grey with antennas?"
Nice spin, good marketing talk for "You're getting nothing new."
How the hell is that spin? The PAGK kit indeed lets you make 3 different units ( GKSS, Purifiers, Purgation) and the Termies let you make 2 (regular and Paladins) all with vastly different roles.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Auswin wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:
And what do you expect them to claim?
That you can make your Strike Squad into Ultramarine Scouts? Your Paladins into Deathwing Terminators?
Within the GK codex, they can make different type of power armored Grey Knights units.
I dont see how thats any sort of 'spin'
They don't need to claim anything. They're pushing what appears to be a half-assed codex out the door with no new models and very likely a lot of things taken out. Then we'll all buy it (me included) because we kind of have to in order to play the army we own.
It's marketing talk. They need to find a way to say something invigorating instead of "Here's the same stuff you've been staring at for three years, but in a new box."
Am I salty this is without a doubt the worst hardback release? Yep, sure am.
More like "Here's a decently priced, varied starter kit that, for the last 3 years, you had to buy individually at a higher cost"
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Post by: Mechanical Crow
Didn't see this posted so have fun
1
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Post by: Auswin
WrentheFaceless wrote:
More like "Here's a decently priced, varied starter kit that you havent had for 3 years"
How silly of me. That's much better then.
Seriously, it's a nice box for someone starting out. It's a shame I've got the box twice over or I'd be in for it. The overall quality of the GW starter boxes have been vastly superior to the old stuff, but it just feels like I'm waiting for an ax to drop and render a pure GK army pointless, unless I'm willing to ally.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Conversion.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Auswin wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:
More like "Here's a decently priced, varied starter kit that you havent had for 3 years"
How silly of me. That's much better then.
Seriously, it's a nice box for someone starting out. It's a shame I've got the box twice over or I'd be in for it. The overall quality of the GW starter boxes have been vastly superior to the old stuff, but it just feels like I'm waiting for an ax to drop and render a pure GK army pointless, unless I'm willing to ally.
The targeted audience for starter boxes, are not usually the people that already have armies...
I wish that kit was available when I started out as well
Well its neither of the Forgeworld arms. Just checked. Does look like a quad gun conversion. Unless the new gK Dreadnought kit has auto cannons.
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Post by: Happygrunt
Which I believe the old GK book was famous for. Didn't they feature FW stuff in the painting section as well as converted inquisition/ GK stuff?
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Post by: c0j1r0
It's the BA Libby Dread. That's a DK shield covering up the BA Iconography and a Paladin head.
Edit: Good idea though. Might make one of those myself.
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Post by: chnmmr
so its just about official then? The GK release is the most pathetic of 6th edition+ so far?
Very disappointed. I'm now really afraid for my necrons getting the GK treatment. :S
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Post by: Happygrunt
pretre wrote:Codex: Inquisition has about 60 pages of rules in ePub format, btw. Which, when you set to 4UP, means it takes 15 pages of paper (or 8 if you double side them). Certainly easier to carry than an iPad or laptop.
You may want to make a simple guide for people who are wondering how to do that, assuming it is all legal of course.
(Which is me, I totally want to do that, just no idea how. )
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
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Post by: Deadshot
Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
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Post by: daedalus
 Happygrunt wrote: pretre wrote:Codex: Inquisition has about 60 pages of rules in ePub format, btw. Which, when you set to 4UP, means it takes 15 pages of paper (or 8 if you double side them). Certainly easier to carry than an iPad or laptop.
You may want to make a simple guide for people who are wondering how to do that, assuming it is all legal of course.
(Which is me, I totally want to do that, just no idea how. )
Most eBook software doesn't do it because publishers generally want control over that kind of stuff. Calibre is a very ereader software in general, and I think it's what I normally use to do my printing. I have a binder with Stronghold Assault and random datasheets/Escalation rules printed out in it to refer to during games. No one has questioned it even once, but just in case, I normally keep the epubs on my phone.
Far as the legality goes, ask a lawyer. Dakka will give you 3 answers, all of which will be wrong.
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Post by: twinner
WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
I believe somewhere in the legal disclaimer of the e-pub version, it states one copy can be printed for personal use.
As for the topic of the thread, I for one am quite sad after spending a lot of having my Coteaz commissioned ($250). I am a fan of a one codex army, I like being able to just have it all in one book, and don't use allies very often.
I think GK need to keep psybolt ammunition for them to be any what competitive, and while I am not huge into the competitive scene, it is nice to go to a tournament and atleast stand a chance. I think with a points reduction, and psybolt ammunition we can stand a chance.
If they take out psybolt and keep points generally the same without adding anything new I think we will be in big trouble. Either way I though the same about my nids when they were released, that they were doomed but it turned out they were ok. Pre-codex doom and gloom will always happen. Stay optimistic brothers, lets work with what we get!
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
Negative, that is exactly what it is.
Black Library is doing something called "Black Library First Editions" now and Talon of Horus is supposed to be the first one.
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Post by: Deadshot
 Kanluwen wrote: Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
Negative, that is exactly what it is.
Black Library is doing something called "Black Library First Editions" now and Talon of Horus is supposed to be the first one.
Bull gak! Are you serious?! For £40 I could buy another novel for £10, pay a guy £20 to read it for mw and still have money for another novel!
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Post by: pretre
Happygrunt wrote: pretre wrote:Codex: Inquisition has about 60 pages of rules in ePub format, btw. Which, when you set to 4UP, means it takes 15 pages of paper (or 8 if you double side them). Certainly easier to carry than an iPad or laptop.
You may want to make a simple guide for people who are wondering how to do that, assuming it is all legal of course.
(Which is me, I totally want to do that, just no idea how. )
Good idea. Pm me so I remember when I'm at work tomorrow.
Also, 20% off on the box is nice!
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Post by: BrianDavion
Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
well it is an omnibus.... still insanely esxpensive.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Deadshot wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
Negative, that is exactly what it is.
Black Library is doing something called "Black Library First Editions" now and Talon of Horus is supposed to be the first one.
Bull gak! Are you serious?! For £40 I could buy another novel for £10, pay a guy £20 to read it for mw and still have money for another novel!
Dead serious. It is the first book of a new trilogy that ADB is doing, following Abaddon.
I'll wait until it comes out in a smaller format but ADB rarely disappoints.
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Post by: Azreal13
BrianDavion wrote: Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
well it is an omnibus.... still insanely esxpensive.
Nope, first volume, so likely gonna cost £120 to own the set.
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Post by: BrianDavion
Kanluwen wrote: Deadshot wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Deadshot wrote:Frankly, I'm more concerned with the book at the bottom of that list by ADB going for £40! Its definitely not a novel at that price!
Negative, that is exactly what it is.
Black Library is doing something called "Black Library First Editions" now and Talon of Horus is supposed to be the first one.
Bull gak! Are you serious?! For £40 I could buy another novel for £10, pay a guy £20 to read it for mw and still have money for another novel!
Dead serious. It is the first book of a new trilogy that ADB is doing, following Abaddon.
I'll wait until it comes out in a smaller format but ADB rarely disappoints.
course if they delay it's release we could end up just pirating it first.
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Post by: Azreal13
WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
Still tragic that at the same time we are praising GW for a good(ish) value bundle, and Black Library is the one that keeps raising prices to the absurd. I'll pay hardback prices for new Cain books, or ADB books, but this is 2x Hardback price. Sorry, not happening.
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Post by: adamsouza
Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
At my FLGS almost every player has either a tablet or phone with Battlescribe and dataslates on them.
I just bought a 10" tablet for $99 with enough memory to hold every codex and dataslate.
Can also use the stores wifi to connect to the interenet and sties like DakkaDakka and GamesWorkshop between games
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Post by: Deadshot
Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
How else do you get your FAQ pdfs or your free FW experimental rules and updates?
Do you not own a smartphone like 90% of people? I'm the only one in my friend circle without an iPad or Samsung Galaxy Tab (I prefer my touchscreen laptop because I used it for work too).
What about the people who have already bought several other iPad or ebook editions? It makes perfect sense for them seeing as they now have all their codexes in the palm of their hand.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Azreal13 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
What now? Whats the story behind this?
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Post by: adamsouza
WrentheFaceless wrote: Azreal13 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
What now? Whats the story behind this?
I'm assuming he's talking about the Chapterhouse Lawsuit and GW claiming IP rights, Copyright, and Trademarks on pretty much anything and everything they've ever printed or made, even though they stole some of that IP from existing properties (The phrase "Space Marines", the definitive helmets of Eldar, the Tau FIre Warrior looks, every shoulder pad and faction symbol, even simple ones like arrows, skulls, crossed lines, etc..)
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Post by: TheKbob
adamsouza wrote: Sir Arun wrote:Except the Inquisition codex cannot be bought unless you're the kind of nerd who brings his ipad or laptop to a game.
At my FLGS almost every player has either a tablet or phone with Battlescribe and dataslates on them.
I just bought a 10" tablet for $99 with enough memory to hold every codex and dataslate.
Can also use the stores wifi to connect to the interenet and sties like DakkaDakka and GamesWorkshop between games
The irony that you can buy a $99 tablet to get your gifted copies of the rules from your friends and family (no extra cost, right!) and the core rules alone cost more than the device. Technology versus the rules. Silly.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
adamsouza wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: Azreal13 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
What now? Whats the story behind this?
I'm assuming he's talking about the Chapterhouse Lawsuit and GW claiming IP rights, Copyright, and Trademarks on pretty much anything and everything they've ever printed or made, even though they stole some of that IP from existing properties (The phrase "Space Marines", the definitive helmets of Eldar, the Tau FIre Warrior looks, every shoulder pad and faction symbol, even simple ones like arrows, skulls, crossed lines, etc..)
Hmm there somewhere I can read about this?
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Post by: daedalus
If you don't mind going through 1000+ page threads on Dakka that have a depressing SNR, there are.
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Post by: Azreal13
adamsouza wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: Azreal13 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
What now? Whats the story behind this?
I'm assuming he's talking about the Chapterhouse Lawsuit and GW claiming IP rights, Copyright, and Trademarks on pretty much anything and everything they've ever printed or made, even though they stole some of that IP from existing properties (The phrase "Space Marines", the definitive helmets of Eldar, the Tau FIre Warrior looks, every shoulder pad and faction symbol, even simple ones like arrows, skulls, crossed lines, etc..)
Yep. I was mainly thinking of the Spots The Space Marine thing, as that was unequivocal, whereas there are one or two instances where Chapterhouse were found to have crossed the line, at least before appeal, but the CHS lawsuit works just fine as an example, seeing as the solid majority didn't even make it to court and the majority that did were found in CHS' favour.
GW even claimed "halberd" in that case initially.
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Post by: agnosto
And Merret testified in court that GW customers "goober" and "geek out" over releases and that out hobby is "buying GW products".
Yeah, lovely testimony that was.
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Post by: mattyrm
agnosto wrote:And Merret testified in court that GW customers "goober" and "geek out" over releases and that out hobby is "buying GW products".
Yeah, lovely testimony that was.
Surely he can be found guilty of perjury?
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
agnosto wrote:And Merret testified in court that GW customers "goober" and "geek out" over releases and that out hobby is "buying GW products".
Yeah, lovely testimony that was.
Dunno sounds pretty accurate
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Post by: agnosto
I buy more than GW products, my hobby is much larger than that.
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Post by: ForeverARookie
My hobby's the game. Buying the models is the cruel and painful tax on playing the game. That's why I rarely buy new models, and tend to get them secondhand instead. I'd like to have an epic looking army, but not enough to pay the exuberant prices.
The overpriced books are much harder to get around, as their used price drops just before an update comes out making them irrelevant.
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Post by: agnosto
My hobby is less and less GW and more and more other manufacturers. GW is not THE hobby but an increasingly anemic, former heavy-weight of the tabletop gaming hobby. Sad really; it almost makes me wish that I still had stock in the company...naw, not really, I'm glad I sold it all off.
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Post by: Davor
WrentheFaceless wrote:$60 bucks for the 10 man strikes
$53.75 For the Dreadknight
$50 for the 5 man Paladin box
$33 for the purifier box (5 man purifiers with 4 heavy weapons O.o)
$74.25 for the Land Raider
$271 USD for all of those separately. If my math is correct you save about $56 bucks.
Not bad
Its a pretty good little starter for GK, which they never had
So it's like buying at full price but with a free codex at the same time?
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Post by: ForeverARookie
I plan to go to my favorite game store that takes 20% off your entire purchase if it is $100+, and it includes the used bin.
So I plan to get the GK Codex, and $100 worth of models (discounted 50%, then the additional 20%) for a grand total of $80.
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Post by: adamsouza
WrentheFaceless wrote: adamsouza wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: Azreal13 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:I doubt GW cares as long as you own a copy of it, and arent trying to sell paper versions.
You are talking about the company that demonstrably cares about people selling things it categorically doesn't own, right?
What now? Whats the story behind this?
I'm assuming he's talking about the Chapterhouse Lawsuit and GW claiming IP rights, Copyright, and Trademarks on pretty much anything and everything they've ever printed or made, even though they stole some of that IP from existing properties (The phrase "Space Marines", the definitive helmets of Eldar, the Tau FIre Warrior looks, every shoulder pad and faction symbol, even simple ones like arrows, skulls, crossed lines, etc..)
Hmm there somewhere I can read about this?
ChapterHouse Verdict Thread
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Post by: tuiman
$400 NZ for the bundle must almost be double the price others are paying, Gw having a laugh.
I actually sold off all my gk around the time of the new tau dex, I had a small feeling that 40k was on a decline. And the amount of stuff that has been released in the last 6 months or so that scream cash grab is beyond counting. Well to me anyway. I was also playing a Draigowing list with Coteaz and henchman, sometimes played Mordrak bomb style armies and I guess all of that is invalidated now anyway.
I do kind of miss the game, but I got to a point where I was getting more angry than enjoying it. However I would love to hear of those that are sticking with gk and if its still as fun as they were in 5th/6th
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Post by: Quarterdime
If I recall, having Codex: Inquisition allies doesn't take up an ally spot, and you can actually have a second, *official* allied detachment, right? So... They were removed from the book because it's redundant. No new unit releases, that's fine with me considering this particular army... Still, they could've updated some Assassin or Inquisitorial models.
Oh no... Does this mean that the Inquisition as represented on the tabletop is now in the same state as Sisters of Battle? They're never getting new models, a real book, or any attention ever again!
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Post by: BrianDavion
 Quarterdime wrote:If I recall, having Codex: Inquisition allies doesn't take up an ally spot, and you can actually have a second, *official* allied detachment, right? So... They were removed from the book because it's redundant. No new unit releases, that's fine with me considering this particular army... Still, they could've updated some Assassin or Inquisitorial models.
Oh no... Does this mean that the Inquisition as represented on the tabletop is now in the same state as Sisters of Battle? They're never getting new models, a real book, or any attention ever again!
possiably, over on I think it was Naftka's site there was a rumor of Inqs getting a 7th edition codex down the road, but IIRC said rumor also promised a buncha new chaos models which these days I tend to use as my signal "the rumor is proably false"
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Post by: Fireraven
So GW is 2 things.
#1 -not releasing new codexes equals they do not care about the army or the players that play them.
Or
#2 - By releasing a lot of new codex's for armies that needed an update and new models for them. They then are money grubbing bad guys?
So how as a company can they win? They cannot.
I am glad to see these releases 1 less in front of my blood angels or goodness maybe my sister's army I was forced to shelve since filers entered 40k.
Fyi that conversion is an actual model that has been avalible to be used since the space marine codex came out. Page #171
For 20 extra points so you could have been using it the whole time for 120 points.
Maybe the GK will be psychic or maybe gain sky fire if it does not move like the contemptor dread does from FW.
Again it seems they cannot win. Every new update to SM factions makes the op Tau and Eldar that dominated just a little more even.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Hmm.
I see a lot of people saying why and all I can think of is the following...
GKs had a severe problem of redundancy in their codex - their entire psychic Mastery was essentially copy-pasted into the main rulebook, their Inquisition units were copy-pasted into a codex of their own. Really you need to trim both of these out and streamline the codex somewhat - Dark Eldar and Necrons, in comparison are still fairly clean with no redundancies in their books.
Second - GKs still had a very confusing set up of rules with Nemesis Weapons - the FAQ for them has changed a number of times and really they weren't too clear to begin with - you had people arguing for halberds as axes, as unusual, as lances... blech. Really this is an opportunity to clean that all up so an ever shifting FAQ isn't needed. Not to mention BoP on their units and their fixed powers - something GW is shying away from of late.
Third - they really didn't need any new models - they're being mass repackaged and it's still not very clear if there's going to be a new vehicle sprue for them or not (since the vehicles are all getting GK packaging...). It was a quick and easy codex to do as it's just a few rules tweaks and a quick tidy up to bring them up to standard.
What about the others?
Well - Blood Angels are probably the last codex truly needing an overhaul due to their set up and layout. Units are overcosted, they still have a Psychic Discipline that is unusable because it's fixed powers (like Orks, GKs, Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids had...) and at the end of the day they're still a late 4th/early 5th edition codex and as such a lot of the balance is reliant on the way wargear functioned a few editions ago (Psychic hoods for example...)
Dark Eldar and Necrons will probably get an overhaul afterwards - but to be fair Necrons were essentially the last codex of 5th so were more designed around 6th themselves.
Sisters- got an 'okay' digital codex but the severe lack of anti-flyer disturbs me. They really need a model range overhaul as well (much in the same line as the Dark Eldar release was).
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Post by: Jadenim
 mattyrm wrote: agnosto wrote:And Merret testified in court that GW customers "goober" and "geek out" over releases and that out hobby is "buying GW products".
Yeah, lovely testimony that was.
Surely he can be found guilty of perjury?
Not a lawyer, but I think perjury has to be deliberate. Being totally ignorant and uninformed of the state of the industry or mindset of you customers doesn't count!
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Post by: Elmir
 DarkStarSabre wrote:Hmm.
I see a lot of people saying why and all I can think of is the following...
GKs had a severe problem of redundancy in their codex - their entire psychic Mastery was essentially copy-pasted into the main rulebook, their Inquisition units were copy-pasted into a codex of their own. Really you need to trim both of these out and streamline the codex somewhat - Dark Eldar and Necrons, in comparison are still fairly clean with no redundancies in their books.
Second - GKs still had a very confusing set up of rules with Nemesis Weapons - the FAQ for them has changed a number of times and really they weren't too clear to begin with - you had people arguing for halberds as axes, as unusual, as lances... blech. Really this is an opportunity to clean that all up so an ever shifting FAQ isn't needed. Not to mention BoP on their units and their fixed powers - something GW is shying away from of late.
Third - they really didn't need any new models - they're being mass repackaged and it's still not very clear if there's going to be a new vehicle sprue for them or not (since the vehicles are all getting GK packaging...). It was a quick and easy codex to do as it's just a few rules tweaks and a quick tidy up to bring them up to standard.
What about the others?
Well - Blood Angels are probably the last codex truly needing an overhaul due to their set up and layout. Units are overcosted, they still have a Psychic Discipline that is unusable because it's fixed powers (like Orks, GKs, Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids had...) and at the end of the day they're still a late 4th/early 5th edition codex and as such a lot of the balance is reliant on the way wargear functioned a few editions ago (Psychic hoods for example...)
Dark Eldar and Necrons will probably get an overhaul afterwards - but to be fair Necrons were essentially the last codex of 5th so were more designed around 6th themselves.
Sisters- got an 'okay' digital codex but the severe lack of anti-flyer disturbs me. They really need a model range overhaul as well (much in the same line as the Dark Eldar release was).
First off, that the codex needed an update was pretty darn obvious to everybody. The way they went about it, is what annoys me (and it would seem several people in this thread). There's already a precedent for models with rules over 2 codexes. One of the most noticable, is the militarum tempestus. Perfect example of how you can have 2 books coexisting, just polish up the rules so both have the same in them. All they had to do, was make sure that Coteaz matched his counterpart of Codex: Inquisition.
Redundancy fixing is fine, that was badly needed.
Wargear explanations after 6th edition made different powerweapons have different stats: fine. It was confusing.
I strongly disagree however on the "not needing any new models". This really is a FIRST that a codex is released without any models beside it. Like you said, it's just repacks and bundles. The vehicle sprue is a myth... They'd be insanely dumb to just post a stock landraider in their army bundle if there was one, wouldn't they? So that one's pretty safe to assume is out the window.
But the most pressing thing: losing inquisition and psybolt really does cut away somewhat "essential" items in the GK armory. Except for the odd lascannon on a vehicle, there's almost no weapons that actually shoot over 24", has a S8+ or has has an AP value of 1-3 anymore. That's all elements that I previously had to get via inquisitorial warbands. So saying that this army "really doesn't need anything" is not something I can agree with.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Elmir wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote:Hmm.
I see a lot of people saying why and all I can think of is the following...
GKs had a severe problem of redundancy in their codex - their entire psychic Mastery was essentially copy-pasted into the main rulebook, their Inquisition units were copy-pasted into a codex of their own. Really you need to trim both of these out and streamline the codex somewhat - Dark Eldar and Necrons, in comparison are still fairly clean with no redundancies in their books.
Second - GKs still had a very confusing set up of rules with Nemesis Weapons - the FAQ for them has changed a number of times and really they weren't too clear to begin with - you had people arguing for halberds as axes, as unusual, as lances... blech. Really this is an opportunity to clean that all up so an ever shifting FAQ isn't needed. Not to mention BoP on their units and their fixed powers - something GW is shying away from of late.
Third - they really didn't need any new models - they're being mass repackaged and it's still not very clear if there's going to be a new vehicle sprue for them or not (since the vehicles are all getting GK packaging...). It was a quick and easy codex to do as it's just a few rules tweaks and a quick tidy up to bring them up to standard.
What about the others?
Well - Blood Angels are probably the last codex truly needing an overhaul due to their set up and layout. Units are overcosted, they still have a Psychic Discipline that is unusable because it's fixed powers (like Orks, GKs, Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids had...) and at the end of the day they're still a late 4th/early 5th edition codex and as such a lot of the balance is reliant on the way wargear functioned a few editions ago (Psychic hoods for example...)
Dark Eldar and Necrons will probably get an overhaul afterwards - but to be fair Necrons were essentially the last codex of 5th so were more designed around 6th themselves.
Sisters- got an 'okay' digital codex but the severe lack of anti-flyer disturbs me. They really need a model range overhaul as well (much in the same line as the Dark Eldar release was).
First off, that the codex needed an update was pretty darn obvious to everybody. The way they went about it, is what annoys me (and it would seem several people in this thread). There's already a precedent for models with rules over 2 codexes. One of the most noticable, is the militarum tempestus. Perfect example of how you can have 2 books coexisting, just polish up the rules so both have the same in them. All they had to do, was make sure that Coteaz matched his counterpart of Codex: Inquisition.
Redundancy fixing is fine, that was badly needed.
Wargear explanations after 6th edition made different powerweapons have different stats: fine. It was confusing.
I strongly disagree however on the "not needing any new models". This really is a FIRST that a codex is released without any models beside it. Like you said, it's just repacks and bundles. The vehicle sprue is a myth... They'd be insanely dumb to just post a stock landraider in their army bundle if there was one, wouldn't they? So that one's pretty safe to assume is out the window.
But the most pressing thing: losing inquisition and psybolt really does cut away somewhat "essential" items in the GK armory. Except for the odd lascannon on a vehicle, there's almost no weapons that actually shoot over 24", has a S8+ or has has an AP value of 1-3 anymore. That's all elements that I previously had to get via inquisitorial warbands. So saying that this army "really doesn't need anything" is not something I can agree with.
Firstly, Mastery Levels wasn't copy and pasted into the Codex, it was C&P'd into the main book from GK! Along with BoP and Psychic Pilot.
Secondly, the fixed powers were there because those powers were specialised (fluff) for the unit in question.
89067
Post by: Brutishcard
DarkStarSabre wrote:Hmm.
I see a lot of people saying why and all I can think of is the following...
GKs had a severe problem of redundancy in their codex - their entire psychic Mastery was essentially copy-pasted into the main rulebook, their Inquisition units were copy-pasted into a codex of their own. Really you need to trim both of these out and streamline the codex somewhat - Dark Eldar and Necrons, in comparison are still fairly clean with no redundancies in their books.
Second - GKs still had a very confusing set up of rules with Nemesis Weapons - the FAQ for them has changed a number of times and really they weren't too clear to begin with - you had people arguing for halberds as axes, as unusual, as lances... blech. Really this is an opportunity to clean that all up so an ever shifting FAQ isn't needed. Not to mention BoP on their units and their fixed powers - something GW is shying away from of late.
Third - they really didn't need any new models - they're being mass repackaged and it's still not very clear if there's going to be a new vehicle sprue for them or not (since the vehicles are all getting GK packaging...). It was a quick and easy codex to do as it's just a few rules tweaks and a quick tidy up to bring them up to standard.
What about the others?
Well - Blood Angels are probably the last codex truly needing an overhaul due to their set up and layout. Units are overcosted, they still have a Psychic Discipline that is unusable because it's fixed powers (like Orks, GKs, Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids had...) and at the end of the day they're still a late 4th/early 5th edition codex and as such a lot of the balance is reliant on the way wargear functioned a few editions ago (Psychic hoods for example...)
Dark Eldar and Necrons will probably get an overhaul afterwards - but to be fair Necrons were essentially the last codex of 5th so were more designed around 6th themselves.
Sisters- got an 'okay' digital codex but the severe lack of anti-flyer disturbs me. They really need a model range overhaul as well (much in the same line as the Dark Eldar release was).
Gk really need so much more.. But I kinda see that it's hard to fit more versatile units into the fluff. It's a huge two fingers up from GW but it arguably fits in. They are essentially saying only take a gk detachment if you are playing against deamons.
First turn deep strike is border line useless as even terminators will just get slaughtered. I think a lot of people will be justifiably very annoyed at this release. Especially looking at the treatment that all the other armies have had so far.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
First term deep strike could be awesome IF GKs have a special rule to assault from DS. being able to fire, run and then assault would make for a scary alphastrike (proably an OP one) I doubt VERY VERY VERY much GKs will have that, but if they have some sort of unique ability allowing them too, then I'd class GKs as a strong codex, without it, it'll still be solid just nothing exciting.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
BrianDavion wrote:First term deep strike could be awesome IF GKs have a special rule to assault from DS. being able to fire, run and then assault would make for a scary alphastrike (proably an OP one) I doubt VERY VERY VERY much GKs will have that, but if they have some sort of unique ability allowing them too, then I'd class GKs as a strong codex, without it, it'll still be solid just nothing exciting.
The rule is stated in the new WD: The unit can shoot and run. Charge, no way.
80358
Post by: Fireraven
BrianDavion wrote:First term deep strike could be awesome IF GKs have a special rule to assault from DS. being able to fire, run and then assault would make for a scary alphastrike (proably an OP one) I doubt VERY VERY VERY much GKs will have that, but if they have some sort of unique ability allowing them too, then I'd class GKs as a strong codex, without it, it'll still be solid just nothing exciting.
This is what it takes now? Some broken 1st turn no counter army to make people excited? To me any army that gets this will be so broken it will be house banned or I will not play at the venue period. We all ready had the tau crap of shoot you off the board before your army could even be fully deployed. Or everything gets sky fire or intercept basicly an all answers army that if they get 1st turn your waisting the day playing against it. When did that become fun? The game is about fun.
I wish dreads that did not move the same turn they shoot get sky fire or if they move they lose it that would be balanced its all ready in GW it's just the fw model.
And the space worf codex is anything but lack luster new fliers new dreads champions alows you to be a dread GOD with drop pods and templates. O ya they got a cool weapon that is a MC's worst nightmare 1 unsaved wound its gone bye bye. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also interceptor and purgation squads heard of those ? I have not it says the new kit can make 4 squads strike and purifier I have heard of.
79409
Post by: BrianDavion
wuestenfux wrote:BrianDavion wrote:First term deep strike could be awesome IF GKs have a special rule to assault from DS. being able to fire, run and then assault would make for a scary alphastrike (proably an OP one) I doubt VERY VERY VERY much GKs will have that, but if they have some sort of unique ability allowing them too, then I'd class GKs as a strong codex, without it, it'll still be solid just nothing exciting.
The rule is stated in the new WD: The unit can shoot and run. Charge, no way.
yup, which is proably how it should be. GK terminators should be tough eneugh to take some fire anyway. it'll certinly work,
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
BrianDavion wrote: wuestenfux wrote:BrianDavion wrote:First term deep strike could be awesome IF GKs have a special rule to assault from DS. being able to fire, run and then assault would make for a scary alphastrike (proably an OP one) I doubt VERY VERY VERY much GKs will have that, but if they have some sort of unique ability allowing them too, then I'd class GKs as a strong codex, without it, it'll still be solid just nothing exciting.
The rule is stated in the new WD: The unit can shoot and run. Charge, no way.
yup, which is proably how it should be. GK terminators should be tough eneugh to take some fire anyway. it'll certinly work,
Indeed, running should help to dilute the effectiveness of enemy blasts.
Thus deep striking in turn 1 may become the standard assault pattern for GK armies.
80358
Post by: Fireraven
Nemisis strike force run and shoot both on turn they enter also no rolling on turn 2 on 3+ they alll come in turn 1? That's pretty good boys and girl's.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Fireraven wrote:Nemisis strike force run and shoot both on turn they enter also no rolling on turn 2 on 3+ they alll come in turn 1? That's pretty good boys and girl's.
This could be a quite interesting rule.
However, I think that the synergy of this formation is not really that high.
63020
Post by: dragqueeninspace
dworl Elmir wrote: DarkStarSabre wrote:Hmm.
r
I see a lot of people saying why and all I can think of is the following...
GKs had a severe problem of redundancy in their codex - their entire psychic Mastery was essentially copy-pasted into the main rulebook, their Inquisition units were copy-pasted into a codex of their own. Really you need to trim both of these out and streamline the codex somewhat - Dark Eldar and Necrons, in comparison are still fairly clean with no redundancies in their books.
Second - GKs still had a very confusing set up of rules with Nemesis Weapons - the FAQ for them has changed a number of times and really they weren't too clear to begin with - you had people arguing for halberds as axes, as unusual, as lances... blech. Really this is an opportunity to clean that all up so an ever shifting FAQ isn't needed. Not to mention BoP on their units and their fixed powers - something GW is shying away from of late.
Tihird - they really didn't need any new models - they're being mass repackaged and it's still not very clear if there's going to be a new vehicle sprue for them or not (since the vehicles are all getting GK packaging...). It was a quick and easy codex to do as it's just a few rules tweaks and a quick tidy up to bring them up to standard.
What about the others?
Well - Blood Angels are probably the last codex truly needing an overhaul due to their set up and layout. Units are overcosted, they still have a Psychic Discipline that is unusable because it's fixed powers (like Orks, GKs, Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids had...) and at the end of the day they're still a late 4th/early 5th edition codex and as such a lot of the balance is reliant on the way wargear functioned a few editions ago (Psychic hoods for example...)
Dark Eldar and Necrons will probably get an overhaul afterwards - but to be fair Necrons were essentially the last codex of 5th so were more designed around 6th themselves.
e
Sisters- got an 'okay' digital codex but the severe lack of anti-flyer disturbs me. They really need a model range overhaul as well (much in the same line as the Dark Eldar release was).
First off, that the codex needed an update was pretty darn obvious to everybody. The way they went about it, is what annoys me (and it would seem several people in this thread). There's already a precedent for models with rules over 2 codexes. One of the most noticable, is the militarum tempestus. Perfect example of how you can have 2 books coexisting, just polish up the rules so both have the same in them. All they had to do, was make sure that Coteaz matched his counterpart of Codex: Inquisition.
Redundancy fixing is fine, that was badly needed.
Wargear explanations after 6th edition made different powerweapons have different stats: fine. It was confusing.
th
I strongly disagree however on the "not needing any new models". This really is a FIRST that a codex is released without any models beside it. Like you said, it's just repacks and bundles. The vehicle sprue is a myth... They'd be insanely dumb to just post a stock landraider in their army bundle if there was one, wouldn't they? So that one's pretty safe to assume is out the window.
But the most pressing thing: losing inquisition and psybolt really does cut away somewhat "essential" items in the GK armory. Except for the odd lascannon on a vehicle, there's almost no weapons that actually shoot over 24", has a S8+ or has has an AP value of 1-3 anymore. That's all elements that I previously had to get via inquisitorial warbands. So saying that this army "really doesn't need anything" is not something I can agree with.
The orks and tyranids would like to welcome you to their world.
49456
Post by: pizzaguardian
wuestenfux wrote:Fireraven wrote:Nemisis strike force run and shoot both on turn they enter also no rolling on turn 2 on 3+ they alll come in turn 1? That's pretty good boys and girl's.
This could be a quite interesting rule.
However, I think that the synergy of this formation is not really that high.
We just need a comm relay and a scouting locator beacon to make this a reliable tactic.
89067
Post by: Brutishcard
wuestenfux wrote:Fireraven wrote:Nemisis strike force run and shoot both on turn they enter also no rolling on turn 2 on 3+ they alll come in turn 1? That's pretty good boys and girl's.
This could be a quite interesting rule.
However, I think that the synergy of this formation is not really that high.
From a rules writing perspective balancing an alpha strike force is tricky, cos there has to be a sufficient counter. I would hate to drop a shiny metal force weapon wielding bomb that could decimate an entire flank and ensure a turn 2 win. That said I don't think they've got it right with this one, as realistically any interceptor packing army makes a mockery of deepstrikes in this edition. From a fluff perspective, bursting out of thin air and gutting the enemy reads brilliantly, but as a game mechanic it doesn't work as personally I would find it unsatisfying on both sides of it.
80358
Post by: Fireraven
They had a 2 great write ups page 26 the detachment is on page 27. It works great as they say for terms and dread knights as well as strike squads. All else fails you can run them with a libby cast Sanctuary on Terms since that's still a troop slot not an elite for GK. I thinks its nice some safe ds run to get in close melta them or shoot then move away. the more I just take the time and read the actual articles the more I think GK codex should make anyone happy that actually has played them in thw past.
85664
Post by: pocketcanoe
the new NSF turn 1 deep strike could potentially be great and fluffy - it really depends on which units get DS in the new codex. did i read somewhere that it's now a 6 inch scatter for GK DS?
i am worried that it will be too good - i've had enough of the 5th edition hangover of GKs being OP - i only started playing in 6th and i've still had people turn down a game because they think it wouldn't be fun.
So if it's too good, it'll be moanworthy AND it'll be the only sensible list to take if you care about being competetive.
hopefully it'll be OK and just make up for the loss of Mordrak in Alpha/Beta strike lists.
88253
Post by: ForeverARookie
Fireraven wrote:So GW is 2 things.
#1 -not releasing new codexes equals they do not care about the army or the players that play them.
Or
#2 - By releasing a lot of new codex's for armies that needed an update and new models for them. They then are money grubbing bad guys?
So how as a company can they win? They cannot.
I am glad to see these releases 1 less in front of my blood angels or goodness maybe my sister's army I was forced to shelve since filers entered 40k.
Fyi that conversion is an actual model that has been avalible to be used since the space marine codex came out. Page #171
For 20 extra points so you could have been using it the whole time for 120 points.
Maybe the GK will be psychic or maybe gain sky fire if it does not move like the contemptor dread does from FW.
Again it seems they cannot win. Every new update to SM factions makes the op Tau and Eldar that dominated just a little more even.
Everything about GW is money grubbing, not just the new codexes. Just look at everyone they've sued over things GW has no legal right to. Also, it's not just udating the codexes and giving new models, it's charging us into an early grave to do so.
For all we know, the new GK book may contain a competent army, but so far everything about it has been wrong. In the 5th Edition GK, a one-time purchase of a $30 codex got you Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Assassins.
The Grey Knights could easily be played without the others, but it was often beneficial to include a small Inquisitorial force with them. Personally I would use an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor as my Warlord, so I could use my other HQ to his full potential without handing my opponent the "Slay the Warlord" objective.
Inquisition could easily be played on their own because Coteaz made Warbands into Troops, so they could be fielded as their own detachment. The Inquisition Codex was redundant and entirely unneccessary. The Inquisition appears to now be in the same pool of neglect as the Sisters of Battle, and their removal leaves the GK codex desperately short of unit types. So instead of a "double codex" they charge us out the butt for separate ones.
Assassins don't deserve their own codex until they have the units to make it worth wile. They could have just as easily been left in the GK codex, and gotten a new Formation which is a Lone Assassin, so players of other factions could take them without a " HQ/Troop tax".
Why take out the characters without models? We've been doing just fine until now, and some of them are unique enough to warrant new model designs. Mordrak was awesome, and his removal is a slap in the face to everyone who created a custom Mordrak out of a Brother-Captain, or Brother-Captain Stern. Justicar Thawn is a Justicar. There is no reason to remove him. Slap on a couple extra purity seals and he stands out enough. He didn't need his own model, and he certainly didn't deserve to be removed.
But the best proof that GW consists of money grubbing  is that they argued in court, that our hobby was buying their stuff. They are completely out of touch with what we want, only see dollar signs. How can they win? By showing their customers an ounce of respect and not taking a dump on everything they like.
81768
Post by: Tyfus
From Brovius over at Bolter and chainsword:
Psilencer is ranged force weapon. And:
~Psycannons became Salvo 2/4 as expected. Heavy Psycannon has a dual profile, area saturation is the same (Heavy 1, large blast) but has a Salvo 3/6 option too.
~Purifiers inflict Soulblaze on all melee attacks, Incinerators have Soulblaze as well.
~Librarians are cheeeeeeeeeaaaap. We're talking ML3 (still in TDA) for the price of a current Psyriflemen dread (unfortunately Psybolts really are gone now)
~Brother-Captains are ML1, can be upgraded to a GM (+1A and ML2) for the same price as the GM's current ML-upgrade. Still under the 200pt mark.
~Nemesis Force Weapons have a few reworks. No more +1 invuln in melee for swords, halberds are +1S instead of +2I and the warding stave is +2S, AP4 and grants Adamantium Will.
~Paladin Apothecary is the same price as the current Apothecary upgrade (a solid 55pts less) and becomes a character. As reported, NFWs now cost points to upgrade, the previously spoiled figures are correct.
~The Titansword is +3S and AP2, all NFW have Daemonbane (successful Force activation grants rerolls to wound and armour pen against Daemons.
~NDK is a Monstrous Creature (character), same base cost, and all it's options got cheaper. PT is 45 points less than before, and the melee upgrades are dirt-cheap. With how awesome Psylencers are now, you'll be glad to know the Gatling Psylencer dropped 5pts.
Falchions are bought as a pair, S: user Specialist weapons. Just the one attack still.
GKT pricing is real, but they do have to pay for melee weapon upgrades, which are one price no matter the model using them. Special weapons are bunkered into PA and TDA price-points though (which BCs and GMs have access to, no more Ballistic Skill tax!) and a GM with Psycannon clocks in at just over 200pts.
Psycannon/sword GKTs are silly cheap now, slightly less than a Paladin. GKTs are the future, people!
EDIT: Regular banner is 12" bubble of rerolling failed morale and pinning checks and +1A to GKs in the squad.
RELICS!!
~The Soul Glaive is a halberd that lets you reroll failed Force tests, and while Force is in effect, the weilder rerolls to hit, wound and armour pen rolls. Costs as much as a GK Strike.
~The Bone Shard of Solor gives the weilder a 3++ while within 12" of a Daemon, increasing to a 2++ for Daemons of Khorne within the same distance. Half a GK Strike in points
~Domina Liber Daemonica grants 1 extra psychic power but has to be rolled on the Sanctic chart. The bearer and all friendly GK units within 6" reroll 1s on psychic tests from Sanctic. Costs as much as a GKT Psycannon
~Cuirass of Sacrifice is TDA with FnP and IWND, costs 5 points less than a GK Strike
~The Nemesis Banner is a 12" Fearless bubble for GKs, GKs in the squad get +1A and Daemons treat the fearless bubble as dangerous terrain, but is pretty pricey and only available for Paladins (as is the Brotherhood banner).
~The Fury of Deimos is an Assault 3, 36" master-crafted Storm Bolter with Precision Shot. Not too bad, same points cost as the Bone Shard.
Sanctic is repeated in the book (so no new powers), squads have the same psychic powers as they do in the FAQ, except that Purifiers have Banishment, Hammerhand AND Cleansign Flame. BCs, GMs and Librarians have the same power access as before. Draigo has Gate of Infinity!
No new characters or units as predicted/previously rumoured.
Still no Psycannon upgrades for vehicles.
And more:
Another interesting change: Psyk-out grenades changed a fair bit. Work like defensive grenades when charged by Psykers, can be thrown and they inflict Perils on one randomly determined Psyker in the squad that is hit by it (so like Mindstrike missiles but limited to one Perils, doesn't need to hit the Psyker, just his squad which is interesting).
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292163-grey-knights-7e-codex-rumor/page-8
71975
Post by: Scolas
[edit] beat me to it
77159
Post by: Paradigm
Interesting. Standardised weapon costs isn't unexpected, and reasonable. The changes to the weapons I don't like though, losing the init bonus on Halberds is categorically Not Cool. Soul blaze might give purifiers some of their horde killing power back.
47145
Post by: Tsilber
nevermind
81768
Post by: Tyfus
And more from same source (too bad if mindstrike missils are gone....):
Few questions;
A )can you write down what NFW do now? (I will miss that +2 I from hellbard, that is quite big hit, but I guess that's the way GW wants to shift meta from CC to shooty)
B ) No more psy-razors?
C ) Mind strikes are in/out?
D ) Draigo is Lord of the War? any buffs?
E) How are paladins priced now ?
F ) Any SM additions into new GK codex to replace missing Inq stuff?
EDIT: BT's questions answered as follows-
a) NFWs all have Daemonbane (while Force is active, they also allow rerolls to wound and armour pen against Daemons)
B) Unfortunately, no
c) Replaced with Stormstrike Missiles, S8 AP2 concussion, but we have the throwable Psyk-out grenades which are similar to Mindstrike. Better vs. one Psyker in a squad, worse vs. squads of Psykers.
d) Yep, LoW treatment for him too. Titan Sword is S+3, AP2 and he's 30pts less. No force org manipulation though.
e) Same as now, minimum squads of 3. Apothecaries are a whole Paladin cheaper. Land Raiders are dedicated transports (same for GKTs)
f) Nope, no new units at all which is a bummer. We're expected to ally to get armour-cracking tools now.
Purifiers can't deepstrike still, neither can Purgs.
Only change to Psycannons was the Salvo 2/4 profile, so still 24" range and rending.
Is there any Army Wide rule to make us better at Deep Striking?
Nope, and the deepstrike bonus is only for the formation that was shown in WD (It is in the codex too).
There's a biiiig formation though (fittingly called a GK Brotherhood) with a pretty awesome benefit. If you take...
1 Grand Master
1 Brother Captain
3 Strike squads
3 Terminator squads
2 Interceptor squads
2 Purgation squads
1 Dreadnought
1 NDK
...you get Rites of Teleportation (as per the other formation) and Psychic Brotherhood (While the GM is alive, all models in the formation harness Warp Charges on a 3+). It's only something viable in bigger games and the specific nature of the force means you've only got three mastery levels' worth of non-Sanctic powers to benefit from it.
NDKs will be the big thing for popping vehicles, but our answer for fliers is still going to be fliers of our own.
EDIT: Psylencer is rng24", S3, AP-, Heavy 6, Force. I wasn't joking about that. Funny how just that one word makes such a huuuuge difference to how we look at the weapon, huh.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
Psilencer change is crazy. Force goes active and then you can make people pick up multi-wound squads, mc's, and characters alike. Wonder if the strength is higher for the Heavy Psilencer? As it is I wouldn't field it on a normal unit. I need those psycannons & incinerators.
Sad they didn't upgrade the range on the Psycannon when they shifted it to Salvo. Makes terminators more inviting.
Heavy Psycannon is better now. Hopefully we can double up on weapons on our DK's. DK's really are going to be the workhorse of this army.
Shift to St8 AP2 missiles on the stormraven is actually a good thing based on this codex. We need the anti-armor.
Overall I'm cautiously optomistic based on this info.
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Post by: pocketcanoe
AP2 on draigo + points drop is huge. Especially if he can take that fancy-schmancy Curiass of Sacrifice.
Why bother giving a Monstrous Creature a weapon with a salvo profile?
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Post by: Tyfus
Psilencer seems to be S3.... A lot of the multiwound targets have high T.
Draigo seems fine. Problem is the LOW slot and allowing it in GTs.
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Post by: Hulksmash
That's why I was curious about the Heavy version. It's doubtful I'd ever put it on a PA or TA model simply because psycannons are needed more. But I'd consider it on a big guy depending on number of shots & strength.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...
well maybe not worthless but not reliable
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Post by: Quickjager
Hulksmash wrote:Psilencer change is crazy. Force goes active and then you can make people pick up multi-wound squads, mc's, and characters alike. Wonder if the strength is higher for the Heavy Psilencer? As it is I wouldn't field it on a normal unit. I need those psycannons & incinerators.
Sad they didn't upgrade the range on the Psycannon when they shifted it to Salvo. Makes terminators more inviting.
Heavy Psycannon is better now. Hopefully we can double up on weapons on our DK's. DK's really are going to be the workhorse of this army.
Shift to St8 AP2 missiles on the stormraven is actually a good thing based on this codex. We need the anti-armor.
Overall I'm cautiously optomistic based on this info.
Psilencer is HUGE, however it still is Heavy AP-, it will be hard to get into position, but if you do lots of MC are going to be biting the dust.
...but psybolt is really gone? GODDAMN, time to take off the heavy bolters for me vehicles and give them lascannons... or take them as rhinos. Wait that means psyflame is gone also; NOOO MY LAND RAIDER REDEEMER.
Not a fan of how they're pushing the Dreadknight on us.
EDIT: Also halberds... not that attractive anymore, the more I read this the more it looks like they wanted to make the Grey Knights less reliant on upgrades, but rather on a greater number of bodies... I'm going to taking the psycannons off my SS especially if the Salvo range is 12/24, workhorse of the army is just dead right there 
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Post by: Tyfus
Latest rolling in:
Oh, I only just noticed this. Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon that's master-crafted. Looks like it's not worth the upgrade anymore. The vanilla pair of Powerfists (Yes, they retconned Nemesis Doomfists!!) are a better option.
Only formations are the WD-spoiled one and the Brotherhood I posted earlier (which is strikeforce but better, with restrictions).
The Aegis is as per the FAQ, all GKs have Purity of Spirit (Which is just the rule that means GKs only Perils by rolling two or more 6's when using Sanctic powers unless otherwise stated (I think this means they'd still Perils if they failed to cast Vortex of Doom).
TGS is the warlord chart, basically. Warlord traits are:
1) Daemon-slayer- Warlord gains Hatred: Daemons and when casting Banishment, harnesses Warp Charges on a 2+
2) Hammer of Riteousness- Warlord and unit have Hammer of Wrath
3) Unyielding Anvil- Warlord and GKs within 12" have Stubborn
4) First to the Fray- A nod to poor Mordrak, Warlord and unit automatically arrive first turn when Deep Striking and can reroll the scatter
5) Perfect Timing- Warlord and unit gain Counterattack
6) Lore Master- Warlord knows one more psychic power than normal, must be generated from Sanctic
Bionicman, on 19 Aug 2014 - 3:26 PM, said:
Yeah, thank you Brovius for your efforts.
Psilencer is S3 ???
Sorry, typo. Psylencer is still S4. Storm Raven is still Fast Attack.
I skipped past this earlier when I was talking about the BHC, but Heroic Sacrifice is back in a lesser form. It's not tied to a psychic test but it's just a single attack, rolling to hit and wound normally. No instagibbing EW models, sadly. Herald of Titan is also gone. I also missed where Crowe has The Perfect Warrior too, so he does have to always issue/accept challenges (he's a challenge king anyway, since he gets AP2 from Smash and rerollable saves from Blade Parry).
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Post by: Solis Luna Astrum
I will miss the +2 Initiative from Halberds but... S4 base, +1S for Halberd and +2S for Hammerhand means hitting with S7. I can't complain about that!
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Post by: PapaSoul
Well I no longer have a use for any of my Purifiers armed with Halberds. Which is 95% of them. Now we hit at the same time as everyone else. I really wanted to give this Codex a chance after the initial outcry at the lack of new stuff, but I've seen nothing positive come of this release thus far. Just elite marines that are no longer elite.
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Post by: Quickjager
PapaSoul wrote:Well I no longer have a use for any of my Purifiers armed with Halberds. Which is 95% of them. Now we hit at the same time as everyone else. I really wanted to give this Codex a chance after the initial outcry at the lack of new stuff, but I've seen nothing positive come of this release thus far. Just elite marines that are no longer elite.
I think its come full circle; Grey Knights are meant to be a Ally choice rather than a actual army. I'm hoping he is still wrong, I'm starting to go into denial... I could just repaint them as Red Hunters, get all the SM dosh, still be a Inquisitorial army and the models I don't paint red can be my allied detachment.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Tyfus wrote:Yes, they retconned Nemesis Doomfists!!) are a better option.
Really? They're gone? 
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Post by: Chad Warden
Now all we need is "Bloodfists" gone when BA get updated.
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Post by: chnmmr
looks to me that for every good change there are two bad changes. Psycannons are now pointless on models that are not terminators or the DKs. The halberds change is not welcome at all. I'm not sure what to think about the new Psilencer, its definitely not worse, but not sure how 'good' it is.
No new units at all has got me really angry. Goes against GWs mantra of 'BUY OUR MODELS!' I'm looking at my grey knights and thinking 'Sorry.. GW doesn't want me to buy anything for you.'
I dare say the psycannon change and removal of Psy ammo has turned the grey knights into a sub par shooting army. Making the Psycannon salvo makes the weapon very unattractive for Strikes, Interceptors and Purifiers, especially since the range hasn't been increased.
The greatsword being a much cheaper upgrade and being MW isn't bad tbh.
Any word on Purgators? Any changes to for them?
Really this codex is going to be so bland and empty of content other than fluff.. I feel cheated.
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Post by: Quickjager
chnmmr wrote:looks to me that for every good change there are two bad changes. Psycannons are now pointless on models that are not terminators or the DKs. The halberds change is not welcome at all. I'm not sure what to think about the new Psilencer, its definitely not worse, but not sure how 'good' it is.
No new units at all has got me really angry. Goes against GWs mantra of 'BUY OUR MODELS!' I'm looking at my grey knights and thinking 'Sorry.. GW doesn't want me to buy anything for you.'
I dare say the psycannon change and removal of Psy ammo has turned the grey knights into a sub par shooting army. Making the Psycannon salvo makes the weapon very unattractive for Strikes, Interceptors and Purifiers, especially since the range hasn't been increased.
The greatsword being a much cheaper upgrade and being MW isn't bad tbh.
Any word on Purgators? Any changes to for them?
Really this codex is going to be so bland and empty of content other than fluff.. I feel cheated.
Just play 5th edition... I doubt many people would give ya gak for doing that.
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Post by: chnmmr
Quickjager wrote:chnmmr wrote:looks to me that for every good change there are two bad changes. Psycannons are now pointless on models that are not terminators or the DKs. The halberds change is not welcome at all. I'm not sure what to think about the new Psilencer, its definitely not worse, but not sure how 'good' it is.
No new units at all has got me really angry. Goes against GWs mantra of 'BUY OUR MODELS!' I'm looking at my grey knights and thinking 'Sorry.. GW doesn't want me to buy anything for you.'
I dare say the psycannon change and removal of Psy ammo has turned the grey knights into a sub par shooting army. Making the Psycannon salvo makes the weapon very unattractive for Strikes, Interceptors and Purifiers, especially since the range hasn't been increased.
The greatsword being a much cheaper upgrade and being MW isn't bad tbh.
Any word on Purgators? Any changes to for them?
Really this codex is going to be so bland and empty of content other than fluff.. I feel cheated.
Just play 5th edition... I doubt many people would give ya gak for doing that.
I'm debating cancelling my 7th ed codex preorder and sticking to the 5th ed codex. This new codex is a downgrade cash grab and is disgusting. I was hoping for something at least similar in power level to eldar/tau.
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Post by: Quickjager
chnmmr wrote:Quickjager wrote:chnmmr wrote:looks to me that for every good change there are two bad changes. Psycannons are now pointless on models that are not terminators or the DKs. The halberds change is not welcome at all. I'm not sure what to think about the new Psilencer, its definitely not worse, but not sure how 'good' it is.
No new units at all has got me really angry. Goes against GWs mantra of 'BUY OUR MODELS!' I'm looking at my grey knights and thinking 'Sorry.. GW doesn't want me to buy anything for you.'
I dare say the psycannon change and removal of Psy ammo has turned the grey knights into a sub par shooting army. Making the Psycannon salvo makes the weapon very unattractive for Strikes, Interceptors and Purifiers, especially since the range hasn't been increased.
The greatsword being a much cheaper upgrade and being MW isn't bad tbh.
Any word on Purgators? Any changes to for them?
Really this codex is going to be so bland and empty of content other than fluff.. I feel cheated.
Just play 5th edition... I doubt many people would give ya gak for doing that.
I'm debating cancelling my 7th ed codex preorder and sticking to the 5th ed codex. This new codex is a downgrade cash grab and is disgusting. I was hoping for something at least similar in power level to eldar/tau.
I wasn't expecting anything in that powerlevel. However Codex: Cash Grab, seems to be pushing people away from models they already have, to ones they will have to buy. More Termies, more Dreadknights, less Dreadnaught, less Transports, less PAGK.
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Post by: MaxT
chnmmr wrote:I'm debating cancelling my 7th ed codex preorder and sticking to the 5th ed codex. This new codex is a downgrade cash grab and is disgusting. I was hoping for something at least similar in power level to eldar/tau.
This here is the problem with many 40k players. They want the OP stuff for their pet list and damn the game balance.
No chnmmr, GK's shouldn't be at (or as you ask for, above!) the Tau/Eldar power level, they should be at the power level of the other dozen codexes. Eldar & Tau should be toned down on their next iteration.
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Post by: chnmmr
MaxT wrote:chnmmr wrote:I'm debating cancelling my 7th ed codex preorder and sticking to the 5th ed codex. This new codex is a downgrade cash grab and is disgusting. I was hoping for something at least similar in power level to eldar/tau.
This here is the problem with many 40k players. They want the OP stuff for their pet list and damn the game balance.
No chnmmr, GK's shouldn't be at (or as you ask for, above!) the Tau/Eldar power level, they should be at the power level of the other dozen codexes. Eldar & Tau should be toned down on their next iteration.
That would be ideal. But no, I'm going to have to live with a mediocre codex while playing against Tau/Eldar that table me every game I play. You misunderstand me MaxT, I would much rather have balance across the game, but its going to be -ages- till Eldar/Tau get balanced. Anyway, this discussion doesn't belong here.
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Post by: sockwithaticket
chnmmr wrote:Quickjager wrote:chnmmr wrote:looks to me that for every good change there are two bad changes. Psycannons are now pointless on models that are not terminators or the DKs. The halberds change is not welcome at all. I'm not sure what to think about the new Psilencer, its definitely not worse, but not sure how 'good' it is.
No new units at all has got me really angry. Goes against GWs mantra of 'BUY OUR MODELS!' I'm looking at my grey knights and thinking 'Sorry.. GW doesn't want me to buy anything for you.'
I dare say the psycannon change and removal of Psy ammo has turned the grey knights into a sub par shooting army. Making the Psycannon salvo makes the weapon very unattractive for Strikes, Interceptors and Purifiers, especially since the range hasn't been increased.
The greatsword being a much cheaper upgrade and being MW isn't bad tbh.
Any word on Purgators? Any changes to for them?
Really this codex is going to be so bland and empty of content other than fluff.. I feel cheated.
Just play 5th edition... I doubt many people would give ya gak for doing that.
I'm debating cancelling my 7th ed codex preorder and sticking to the 5th ed codex. This new codex is a downgrade cash grab and is disgusting.
Mate, I'd say go for it.
All too often on here and elsewhere you read or hear people say things that are basically 'I don't like it, but I'll buy it anyway'.It's no different to people who didn't like previous Transformers movies going to see the latest one. Dreamworks and Hasbro don't care if you enjoy the movie so long as you pay for a ticket, so long as people keep buying tickets they'll keep doing things they way they do. Same for GW, your enjoyment of their products comes a distant second to whether you're purchasing them. If enough people actually controlled themselves and didn't buy the stuff they criticise and lambast maybe every new release thread wouldn't be clogged up with complaints because GW might get the message and start changing they way they operate. Not if we keep buying sub-standard products, though. More power to the people who do say 'no, this isn't good enough, you don't get my money'.
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Post by: Deadshot
Can anyone answer me if it would be possible to load up all the relics on a single HQ? Disregard for a second your own personal interpretation of the "1 for1" argument because we play it you can swap multiple times. It seems to be possible. There are only 2 weapon relics and you have 2 weapons you could swap out (NFW and Stormbolter for better versions in both). You could then swap the TDA for the special awesome armour, and then take the book to give you +1 power and the squad Santic rerolls of 1, and also the Bone Shard to get that cracking 3++ and 2++ vs Khorne Daemons.
The second question is what makes up the Nemesis Strike Force? It sound very interesting? Or is it just the GK detachment.
The new FOC, Draigo's changes and the new Titansword make me very very happy. Assuming Draigo keeps his same profile, that's 5 attacks on the charge at Int 5, Str 8 AP2, Daemonbane and Force, 4 wounds, 2+/3++ and EW. For many less points than before. Very happy.
edit: Also, have Grand Masters gotten the Chapter Master Treatment? Meaning that they are now not simply 25pt more expensive Captains with a special rule (that is now a Warlord Table). As they are Chapter Masters I'd like to see them get +1A and W over the Captain as the CM does in C:SM.
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Post by: pretre
Deadshot wrote:Can anyone answer me if it would be possible to load up all the relics on a single HQ? Disregard for a second your own personal interpretation of the "1 for1" argument because we play it you can swap multiple times. It seems to be possible. There are only 2 weapon relics and you have 2 weapons you could swap out ( NFW and Stormbolter for better versions in both). You could then swap the TDA for the special awesome armour, and then take the book to give you +1 power and the squad Santic rerolls of 1, and also the Bone Shard to get that cracking 3++ and 2++ vs Khorne Daemons.
Assuming you take the 'multiple relics can be purchased' interpretation, yes, it sounds like it.
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Post by: Deadshot
Thanks pretre
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Post by: pretre
Also, I got the instructions for printing epubs together if someone wants them. Or I can try to make a post somewhere.
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Post by: daedalus
I always liked GKT. I'm kind of glad to see more of a reason to run them.
I'm a little concerned about the codex though. I see this going back to the old days of running mostly terminators and hiding in your land raiders until you can't anymore.
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Post by: Happygrunt
Hmm, these leaks have made me MORE interested in the GK I already have. I may have to look into blowing the dust off them, revamping the models and running an ally force for my IG.
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Post by: ForeverARookie
Everything else I could see working, but the Psycannon tears it. A 24" Salvo is nothing more than a glorified pistol to anything without Relentless!!! The name of the game is movement with the shifting objectives and excessive firepower other factions possess.
Our worst fears are realised in the Psycannon. It was the one anti-armor/monstrous creature man-portable ranged weapon in the Grey Knight arsenal. We don't carry around Missile Launchers, Lascannons, Plasma Guns, Multi-meltas, or any of the other epic weapons the troops of other factions carry. The one thing w had was the Psycannon, and now GW has #&@%@'d it up.
The worst part is that Salvo would have been not only fine, but an improvement if they had just made it 36". Sure the lower profile would only be 18", but at least it would still be useful on the battlefield, before you're close enough to shove your finger up the enemy's nose.
If anyone is wondering why I'm so upset with this issue, is that the bulk of my 10,000 point Pure Grey Knight Army is Purifiers in Rhinos.
For emphasis, I have 41 Purifiers modeled with Psycannons.
I also don't like that Force and Hammerhand can't be cast by models in close combat, which means if you don't kill that rediculously tough monstrous creature in the first turn, you aren't going to.
Force on Psilencers is virtually useless. 6 shots at BS4 (assuming you're stationary) means you'll get 4 hits. Most multi-wound models will be T5 or better. So optimistically assuming the S4 shot is against a T5 enemy, you'll wound on 5+, bringing the average number of hits down to 1 1/3. Most of these Characters will have a 2+ armour save, and even if they don't, they'll have a 3+. So, once again optimistically hoping they'll have "only" a 3+ armour save, you have a 4/9 chance of getting 1 shot through. So the best case scenario, you need 2 Psilencers (Stationary, or 6 Psilencers if they moved) to deal a single wound, and that only has instant death if you passed the Psychic test and were not Denied. Psilencers are STILL worthless, but now they have the Psycannons for company.
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Post by: Desubot
Wait rules are out now?
Force psilencers?!
neet
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Post by: Wilson
ForeverARookie wrote:Everything else I could see working, but the Psycannon tears it. A 24" Salvo is nothing more than a glorified pistol to anything without Relentless!!! The name of the game is movement with the shifting objectives and excessive firepower other factions possess.
Our worst fears are realised in the Psycannon. It was the one anti-armor/monstrous creature man-portable ranged weapon in the Grey Knight arsenal. We don't carry around Missile Launchers, Lascannons, Plasma Guns, Multi-meltas, or any of the other epic weapons the troops of other factions carry. The one thing w had was the Psycannon, and now GW has #&@%@'d it up.
The worst part is that Salvo would have been not only fine, but an improvement if they had just made it 36". Sure the lower profile would only be 18", but at least it would still be useful on the battlefield, before you're close enough to shove your finger up the enemy's nose.
If anyone is wondering why I'm so upset with this issue, is that the bulk of my 10,000 point Pure Grey Knight Army is Purifiers in Rhinos.
For emphasis, I have 41 Purifiers modeled with Psycannons.
I also don't like that Force and Hammerhand can't be cast by models in close combat, which means if you don't kill that rediculously tough monstrous creature in the first turn, you aren't going to.
Force on Psilencers is virtually useless. 6 shots at BS4 (assuming you're stationary) means you'll get 4 hits. Most multi-wound models will be T5 or better. So optimistically assuming the S4 shot is against a T5 enemy, you'll wound on 5+, bringing the average number of hits down to 1 1/3. Most of these Characters will have a 2+ armour save, and even if they don't, they'll have a 3+. So, once again optimistically hoping they'll have "only" a 3+ armour save, you have a 4/9 chance of getting 1 shot through. So the best case scenario, you need 2 Psilencers (Stationary, or 6 Psilencers if they moved) to deal a single wound, and that only has instant death if you passed the Psychic test and were not Denied. Psilencers are STILL worthless, but now they have the Psycannons for company.
Someone's not a happy bunny....
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Post by: easysauce
 pizzaguardian wrote:S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...
well maybe not worthless but not reliable
ummmm no, you are just wrong sorry, st 3, with *6* shots per gun means that even when fishing for 6's you have a decent chance to insta gib stuff... keep in mind, you shouldnt have a huge chance to insta gib stuff, it would be really REALLY op if it was strong as well...
considering that every single other instant death ranged weapon in the game only does it on 6's, and that this one at least has the potential to do it on lower rolls vs t4 and lower, its a huge buff.
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Post by: Desubot
If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
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Post by: Deadshot
ForeverARookie wrote: If anyone is wondering why I'm so upset with this issue, is that the bulk of my 10,000 point Pure Grey Knight Army is Purifiers modeled with Psycannons.
Emphasis mine, and the very reason GW have done this. Everyone who wants to be competitive with Gk has loaded up on masses of Purifiers with Psycannons in Rhinos for the 5th Ed Codex/6th Ed rules meta. Now everyone will have to buy new models! Aaaannnnddd! The 5 man kit only comes with 1 Psilincer (the 10 man kit comes with 2) as opposed to the 2 and 4 respectively for the Psycannons! So they'll need to buy even more models to get the maximum number on a Purifier/Paladin/Purgator squad. Its brilliant brilliant brilliant! Plus, now Termies are now the flavour of the week with their ultra cheapness compared to other Termies and PAGK isn't great anyone. And GW says they don't do market research
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Post by: daedalus
Yeah. Makes me glad I played the army, not the build.
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Post by: Wilson
Desubot wrote:If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
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Post by: daedalus
 Wilson wrote:
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
I assume you won't play IG either?
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Post by: Wilson
Nope. I might play Astra Millatarum though
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'll take one DK w/dual gatling psilencers if it's allowed just to be able to pick off a DP or GD per turn
It would also destroy Wraiths which makes me smile.
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Post by: easysauce
glad to see terminators got the buff they needed... was a bit of a joke before, great changes regarding them
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Post by: agnosto
To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.
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Post by: daedalus
Bah. They're still the IG. But they can get 29 S5 shots for about 160 points. Beyond the force bit, I don't how this is much worse.
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Post by: easysauce
agnosto wrote:To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.
wow... thats even better then... psilencers just went from worthless to OMGAWD good...
5+ to insta gib t5?
6 chances to do it with ONE gun?
yes please....
glad to see it because I loved the look of them, but never used them...
how convieniant, I have ~20 lying around unused!
somehow, it must be a gw cash grab to make worthless unused things like these usful again.
same with my terminators! OFF THE SHELF WITH YOU! (which again, must be a cash grab! not like they are THE signature troop of GK's or anything)
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Post by: pizzaguardian
easysauce wrote: pizzaguardian wrote:S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...
well maybe not worthless but not reliable
ummmm no, you are just wrong sorry, st 3, with *6* shots per gun means that even when fishing for 6's you have a decent chance to insta gib stuff... keep in mind, you shouldnt have a huge chance to insta gib stuff, it would be really REALLY op if it was strong as well...
considering that every single other instant death ranged weapon in the game only does it on 6's, and that this one at least has the potential to do it on lower rolls vs t4 and lower, its a huge buff.
Appereantly it is str 4 still. Yet It is still not worthwhile except if the meta allows it. Your main target is either t5 fmc or t6 mc, which vs one you snap fire and vs other you wound on 6's. Not every insta kill weapon need special rule btw. Wraithknight does it fine with range str 10 and lascannon does it well on every generic meq unit. Instant kill is not sth new and not "really op" .
And also obviously it is huge buff, turning something from useless to "you can kill sth if you are lucky". Oh and it is a single purpose weapon, not anti-tank or even good anti infantry.
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Post by: ForeverARookie
Wilson wrote: Desubot wrote:If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
I assume the big Tyranids are T6 or better, right?
24 shots, means 16 hits at BS4 with Relentless. Wounding on a 6 means 2 1/4 Wounds. What are your saves like? At least 4+? A 4+ save would reduce that to 1 1/4 unsaved wound for 2 Gatling Psilencers. Now, the Dreadknight could cast Force, but that has the possibility of killing him if he rolls too many dice, and I believe Tyranids ar Psykers, so you get extra dice to Deny.
So Tyranid player, I don't think you or anyone else will have to worry about Grey Knights competatively.
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Post by: Hulksmash
easysauce wrote: agnosto wrote:To clarify, the person providing information in the Bolter and Chainsword thread stated he made a mistake and that Psilencers are S4, not S3 as previously stated.
wow... thats even better then... psilencers just went from worthless to OMGAWD good...
5+ to insta gib t5?
6 chances to do it with ONE gun?
yes please....
glad to see it because I loved the look of them, but never used them...
how convieniant, I have ~20 lying around unused!
somehow, it must be a gw cash grab to make worthless unused things like these usful again.
same with my terminators! OFF THE SHELF WITH YOU! (which again, must be a cash grab! not like they are THE signature troop of GK's or anything)
Quiet you!!!!!
I'm looking forward to using Terminators again. And I've always loved my DK's. Good thing is now I can use Dreads too which I love!
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Post by: agnosto
ForeverARookie wrote:
So Tyranid player, I don't think you or anyone else will have to worry about Grey Knights competatively.
Unless of course that DK wades into your Carni unit with an activated force sword......
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Post by: Quickjager
easysauce wrote: pizzaguardian wrote:S3 psilencers are essentially worthless except for that lucky roll of 6 to wound (the intended target of force is usually t5 or t6 ). Which requires at least 2 psilencer to target that unit...
well maybe not worthless but not reliable
ummmm no, you are just wrong sorry, st 3, with *6* shots per gun means that even when fishing for 6's you have a decent chance to insta gib stuff... keep in mind, you shouldnt have a huge chance to insta gib stuff, it would be really REALLY op if it was strong as well...
considering that every single other instant death ranged weapon in the game only does it on 6's, and that this one at least has the potential to do it on lower rolls vs t4 and lower, its a huge buff.
Of course its a buff, they literally just added Force to it. The problem is that they nerfed Psycannons... 24'' salvo range means the GK workhorse is ffffffff'ed, and we don't got any toys to make up for that loss of mobile firepower. Purgation Squads... I rarely saw them before, I don't expect to see them again now, after all they lost Astral Aim and now are forced to be a short-range stationary weapons platform and they're supposed to somehow compete with Dreadknights for that slot, its a joke I tell ya. The internal balance is weiiiird,
Heavy Support is pretty much only Dreadknight now, Elite slot had potential to be attractive with the Dreadnought moving there but no Psyflemen means that is gone.
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Post by: Jidmah
Wilson wrote: Desubot wrote:If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Yknow, other than the loss of psybolt ammo, I'm not reading much I dont like
Glad I magnetized my storm ravens, back to las cannons with them
Double Psylencer dreadknights lol
So Draigo is a LOW, doesnt make Paladins Troops anymore? Can you still use him as a HQ?
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Post by: pretre
LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.
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Post by: daedalus
Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?
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Post by: Brutishcard
Wilson wrote:ForeverARookie wrote:Everything else I could see working, but the Psycannon tears it. A 24" Salvo is nothing more than a glorified pistol to anything without Relentless!!! The name of the game is movement with the shifting objectives and excessive firepower other factions possess.
Our worst fears are realised in the Psycannon. It was the one anti-armor/monstrous creature man-portable ranged weapon in the Grey Knight arsenal. We don't carry around Missile Launchers, Lascannons, Plasma Guns, Multi-meltas, or any of the other epic weapons the troops of other factions carry. The one thing w had was the Psycannon, and now GW has #&@%@'d it up.
The worst part is that Salvo would have been not only fine, but an improvement if they had just made it 36". Sure the lower profile would only be 18", but at least it would still be useful on the battlefield, before you're close enough to shove your finger up the enemy's nose.
If anyone is wondering why I'm so upset with this issue, is that the bulk of my 10,000 point Pure Grey Knight Army is Purifiers in Rhinos.
For emphasis, I have 41 Purifiers modeled with Psycannons.
I also don't like that Force and Hammerhand can't be cast by models in close combat, which means if you don't kill that rediculously tough monstrous creature in the first turn, you aren't going to.
Force on Psilencers is virtually useless. 6 shots at BS4 (assuming you're stationary) means you'll get 4 hits. Most multi-wound models will be T5 or better. So optimistically assuming the S4 shot is against a T5 enemy, you'll wound on 5+, bringing the average number of hits down to 1 1/3. Most of these Characters will have a 2+ armour save, and even if they don't, they'll have a 3+. So, once again optimistically hoping they'll have "only" a 3+ armour save, you have a 4/9 chance of getting 1 shot through. So the best case scenario, you need 2 Psilencers (Stationary, or 6 Psilencers if they moved) to deal a single wound, and that only has instant death if you passed the Psychic test and were not Denied. Psilencers are STILL worthless, but now they have the Psycannons for company.
Someone's not a happy bunny....
Pretty justifiably! I'm pissed my ghost knights are redundant, and that I have to pay 20 quid to play the death cult assassin squads. It probably cannot be overstated how painful the psycannon nerf is. Same with the loss of psybolts. There is arguably very little point taking any gk unit now as an ally as well as if you were going to ally there are so many better options! Close combat terminators? Thunder hammer storm shield terminators. Close combat squads? Grey hunters. Withering mid range shooting? Guard. And that's only the imperial stuff.
It actually all reads pretty cool, but anyone who has actually played pure gk knows that they will be kerb stomped by a lot of builds. Although that is the fault of the tau / eldar codexes. A lot of the builds in those books will be utterly unanswerable for pure gk.
That TDA does sound badass tho. Although it probably emphasises I how unlucky the guy playing them in white dwarf was considering the librarian was killed by a proxy herald of nurgle. I will not be buying any new models for this purchase that's for sure. Here's hoping they do a better job of blood angels.
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Post by: agnosto
 daedalus wrote:Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?
Still FA according to the source on the B&C thread.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
pretre wrote:LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.
I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?
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Post by: easysauce
nope hes just LOW,
but remember, ANY character can be your warlord, not just HQ now.
so good in that you can still take HQ's, he came down in pts, is ap 2 now and always str 8 at least, and gained the portal santci power i think
bad in that he cant be mandatory choice or change to troops anymore. what with everything being scoring now, the latter is irrelevant.
Im in the same boat, only thing I will miss is psybolt ammo, but a lot of other things gained and I can actually feild a pure, competitive GK army from the looks of it, my termies and libbys and GMs will be off the shelf for the first time in years.
not sure why everyone is so down about going from ass2/hvy4 to salvo? you couldnt charge after firing 4 shots anyways...
but my lists also didnt have a single psycannon for the most part after my initial builds has lots but were not successful in winning tournies.
as it is, my list that has won tournies with GK just got ~300pts cheaper with no changes.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by: pretre
WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote:LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.
I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?
HQ is different than Warlord.
HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.
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Post by: Quickjager
Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.
Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes
...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though
EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
pretre wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote:LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.
I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?
HQ is different than Warlord.
HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.
Ok i used the wrong terminology then, so I can still have him as my Warlord then?
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Post by: pretre
Quickjager wrote:Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.
No, you have 4 frakking razorbacks that are razorbacks now. For all you know, they still can ignore stunned/shaken through some other rule. Either way, people need to take a deep breath and hold out for the codex. Same as every time a new book comes out and the sky falls.
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Post by: Red Corsair
 Jidmah wrote: Wilson wrote: Desubot wrote:If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.
It's S4... Just keep fielding that malantrhope for 2+ cover lol. 24 shots for 16 hits for 2.25 wounds.... on a 2+ cover thats garbage, now he is within 24" of your swarm... It's just another temptation for them to waste AI shots on cheaper MC's like daka fexes.
What I find more hilarious is that s4 literally can't wound T8 meaning the most offensive MC in the game still doesn't give a damn, and after t5hat teleporter + 2X gatling silencers they will both be similar in price lol.
The heavy psycanon being salvo 6 is money though, now that it much more worth it. Anything a silencer might gib once in a blue moon those will chew down every turn if not kill outright. 12 s7 rending shots are way better IMO. Won't need to waste the now limited number of WC's on charging it up either. Less random=better.
Keep in mind this is only IF they can dual wield like weapons. SO far so good....
Also this is just speculation but I am betting Draigo is s4 t4 now. No way he is cheaper then logan/calgar/lysander/abbadon and has a flat out better profile in every way. Never made sense for a s5 t5 marine anyway IMO. He'd then have a s7 ap2 sword which puts him in line with an iridescent blade CM unless he powers up with HH. Just a thought I had anyway.
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Post by: pretre
WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: pretre wrote:LOW don't count as HQ. Which makes a lot of sense for Draigo since he isn't really part of the command hierarchy.
I thought Ghaz had a rule where you could make him your warlord though. As well as logan?
HQ is different than Warlord.
HQ is your HQ slot, which most detachments require one of. Warlord is just a character in your army that serves as your Warlord.
Ok i used the wrong terminology then, so I can still have him as my Warlord then?
Oh yeah, of course. As long as he's still a character.
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Post by: agnosto
Well, if they make interceptors jet-pack.... (they won't) ...they'd have relentless for the psycannons.
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Post by: wuestenfux
daedalus wrote:Do we know what slot Stormravens are going to fall into now? Are we going to have them in FA still, or are FA slots going to just never be used now?
In view of the leaked army builder, it will still be in FA.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Quickjager wrote:Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.
Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes
...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though
EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.
Ok where did they say they got rid of psychic pilot?
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Post by: pretre
WrentheFaceless wrote:Quickjager wrote:Psychic Pilot rule is no more... ugggggh, I have 4 fraking Razorbacks that are USELESS now.
Termies in Land Raiders gonna be the new metal boxes
...actually I think a break from the hobby is needed now... I don't want to spend money on plastic so my tau and eldar friends can hand me my ass in game... I can sill play against my Blood Angel friend though
EDIT: easysauce go ahead and post your list; especially if you don't understand why people are sad about the psycannon change.
Ok where did they say they got rid of psychic pilot?
Pretty sure they didn't, but that didn't stop anyone...
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Post by: ForeverARookie
So... What do we have left?
LoW:
Draigo, who is a better unit generally speaking with the options for Relics, but does not make Paladins Troops anymore.
HQ:
Librarian (Cheaper = better),
Brother Captain/Grandmaster (OK),
Brother Captain Stern (Still not going to play him)
Crowe (looks better, but he's more expensive so we'll see),
Brotherhood Champion (if he's still there it'll mean Crowe isn't the only non-terminator HQ on the list)
Lost:
Grandmaster Mordrak (Replaced with a 1/6 chance Warlord Trait.
All the Inquisitors (In other words the non-expensive HQ options)
Elite:
Techmarine (Lost the Grenade Jockey options)
Purifiers (Soulblaze on everything? slight consolation to the loss of the Psycannon's functionality)
Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought (Lost Psyfleman option)
Paladins (much better)
Lost:
Assassins
Warbands
Troops:
Terminators (much better, but lost Justicar Thawn)
Strike Squad (Lost the Psycanon's functionality)
Fast Attack:
Storm Raven (Better missiles, but lost Psybolt)
Interceptor Squads (Lost the functionality of the Psycannon)
Heavy:
Dreadknights (Appointed chosen of GW to be the new backbone of the Grey Knight Codex)
Purgation Squad (Inferior in every way to the Dreadknights)
Other Changes:
Land Raider varients moved to Dedicated Transport.
Lost:
Psybolt on EVERYTHING. The StormRaven, Land Raider Crusader, Razorback, and Rifleman Dreadnought are hit the most heavily.
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Post by: Quickjager
 Red Corsair wrote: Jidmah wrote: Wilson wrote: Desubot wrote:If double Gatling psylincers are a thing then 24 ST4 shots should put something down hopefully
Is this true?!
I refuse to play that with my nids. Nope.
Nope.
Just deny the force activation? It's not like nids lack warp charges.
It's S4... Just keep fielding that malantrhope for 2+ cover lol. 24 shots for 16 hits for 2.25 wounds.... on a 2+ cover thats garbage, now he is within 24" of your swarm... It's just another temptation for them to waste AI shots on cheaper MC's like daka fexes.
What I find more hilarious is that s4 literally can't wound T8 meaning the most offensive MC in the game still doesn't give a damn, and after t5hat teleporter + 2X gatling silencers they will both be similar in price lol.
The heavy psycanon being salvo 6 is money though, now that it much more worth it. Anything a silencer might gib once in a blue moon those will chew down every turn if not kill outright. 12 s7 rending shots are way better IMO. Won't need to waste the now limited number of WC's on charging it up either. Less random=better.
Keep in mind this is only IF they can dual wield like weapons. SO far so good....
Also this is just speculation but I am betting Draigo is s4 t4 now. No way he is cheaper then logan/calgar/lysander/abbadon and has a flat out better profile in every way. Never made sense for a s5 t5 marine anyway IMO. He'd then have a s7 ap2 sword which puts him in line with an iridescent blade CM unless he powers up with HH. Just a thought I had anyway.
Hey guess what; you're right about Draigo STR4 and T 4 now.
EDIT: for the record it says so in that guys source, yes I READ entire threads.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Not that his 5 toughness did much being in Paladin clumps, was always majority 4.
Str 7, meh still better than str 5
Does he still get to roll on powers?
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Post by: Quickjager
WrentheFaceless wrote:Not that his 5 toughness did much being in Paladin clumps, was always majority 4.
Str 7, meh still better than str 5
Does he still get to roll on powers?
Yes 2 rolls and a Gate of Infinity.
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Post by: Red Corsair
WrentheFaceless wrote:Not that his 5 toughness did much being in Paladin clumps, was always majority 4.
Str 7, meh still better than str 5
Does he still get to roll on powers?
He's still a beast, just cast hammer hand and he pops up to 9. It did say he comes with gate which is interesting. If you use him to gate around Centurions or whatever he is never going be assaulting, so I am not sure that's really worth it. Maybe use him solo lol. Gate turn 1 for pressure and threat a turn 2 assault.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Ok str 7 ap2, comes with gate and 2 rolls and 30 points cheaper?
Man snorting that warp dust paid off lol
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Post by: Red Corsair
Quickjager wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Not that his 5 toughness did much being in Paladin clumps, was always majority 4.
Str 7, meh still better than str 5
Does he still get to roll on powers?
Yes 2 rolls and a Gate of Infinity.
Is he still an IC?
I only ask because he seems more true to his fluff now. Wouldn't be shocked if he was intended to warp in solo.
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Post by: Anpu42
Ok a few things
Did Crowe finally get IC
With the Dread Night, are they getting two choices or Twin-Linked?
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Post by: Jidmah
I doubt that Draigo gets access to any relics, considering that he is a named character. He'll probably come with unique relics of his own, like most other named characters.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Jidmah wrote:I doubt that Draigo gets access to any relics, considering that he is a named character. He'll probably come with unique relics of his own, like most other named characters.
Definitely, no way he can grab more relics.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
 Anpu42 wrote:Ok a few things
Did Crowe finally get IC
With the Dread Night, are they getting two choices or Twin-Linked?
Two choices as always, but I believe now they can take two of the same weapon. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok the Bolter/chainsword thread did state that aside from Dreadnaughts, other vehicles lost psychic pilot
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Post by: Anpu42
WrentheFaceless wrote: Anpu42 wrote:Ok a few things
Did Crowe finally get IC
With the Dread Night, are they getting two choices or Twin-Linked?
Two choices as always, but I believe now they can take two of the same weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok the Bolter/chainsword thread did state that aside from Dreadnaughts, other vehicles lost psychic pilot
Great!
Now I just need to rebuild my count as Dread Knight a little.
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Post by: Quickjager
Draigo can't take relics, he is a IC
Crowe is an IC but is more expensive, also he has had a odd rule change... He doesn't rend anymore, but in challenges he smashes (like a MC)
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Post by: daedalus
I still don't know if I'll use the psilencers. I mean, between losing 12 point excuses to buy razorbacks, salvo psycannons, lack of psybolt ammo, and now no melta in the army, we're getting low on anti-tank without allies. I think I'll stick with either psycannons on the dreadknights or keep them cheap melee builds.
I think a stormraven is going to become a standard always include for me though. Ugh, this might finally make me bring back the Godhammer LR too.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
So I'm thinking the standard build now for most units will be 1 Psycannon (for vehicles and TEQ/MEQ) and one Psylencer (for MCs, multi-wound things)?
Or in the case of Paladins/Purifiers, 2 of each...
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'm more likely to have one Psilencer DK and then 2-3 more with dual psycannons or incinerators. A lot is going to depend on the details. I'm inclined to basically run 2 of GK specific force org at this point but we'll just have to wait and see. Terminators with Psycannons aren't going to be bad with the point drop.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Will probably run 1 dk in every flavor now, One dual psycannon, one dual psylencer, one dual flamer.
Now to get another DK...
Was going to get a LR Crusader, but with the loss of psyammo now, would a vanilla LR be a better investment?
Now I need to know if you still need 5 paladins to get two heavy weapons...so my little murder ball can roll around in a land raider
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
Incinerators will be a lot more popular on some units now that they are not 20 points a pop. Especially on Interceptors. Shunt, Incinerator, bye bye back-field snipers or HW teams, or anything in an opentopped vehicle.
DE are really going to need a boost.
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Post by: UltraPrime
daedalus wrote:Ugh, this might finally make me bring back the Godhammer LR too.
Sounds like you need a bit of fibre in your diet, bud.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
WrentheFaceless wrote:Will probably run 1 dk in every flavor now, One dual psycannon, one dual psylencer, one dual flamer.
Now to get another DK...
Was going to get a LR Crusader, but with the loss of psyammo now, would a vanilla LR be a better investment?
Now I need to know if you still need 5 paladins to get two heavy weapons...so my little murder ball can roll around in a land raider
IMO its a bad idea to have NDk have dual weapons. What happens if your dual Heavy Psycannons one gets taken out? Then you have no more rending shots. IMO the best thing is to mix them up. Take one with a heavy psycannon / heavy silencer, one with a heavy psysilencer, heavy incernerator, etc. That way if one died you don't lose all the good weapons for it for the rest of your army.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
True enough
Think the DK stayed at 4 wounds or was bumped up to 5 like everyone else?
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Post by: Anpu42
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Will probably run 1 dk in every flavor now, One dual psycannon, one dual psylencer, one dual flamer.
Now to get another DK...
Was going to get a LR Crusader, but with the loss of psyammo now, would a vanilla LR be a better investment?
Now I need to know if you still need 5 paladins to get two heavy weapons...so my little murder ball can roll around in a land raider
IMO its a bad idea to have NDk have dual weapons. What happens if your dual Heavy Psycannons one gets taken out? Then you have no more rending shots. IMO the best thing is to mix them up. Take one with a heavy psycannon / heavy silencer, one with a heavy psysilencer, heavy incernerator, etc. That way if one died you don't lose all the good weapons for it for the rest of your army.
The same way you deal with it when any other Focused is taken out, Adapt on the field or loose.
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Post by: FinkleLord
 MajorWesJanson wrote:Incinerators will be a lot more popular on some units now that they are not 20 points a pop. Especially on Interceptors. Shunt, Incinerator, bye bye back-field snipers or HW teams, or anything in an opentopped vehicle.
DE are really going to need a boost.
Has shunt stayed the same?
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Anpu42 wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Will probably run 1 dk in every flavor now, One dual psycannon, one dual psylencer, one dual flamer.
Now to get another DK...
Was going to get a LR Crusader, but with the loss of psyammo now, would a vanilla LR be a better investment?
Now I need to know if you still need 5 paladins to get two heavy weapons...so my little murder ball can roll around in a land raider
IMO its a bad idea to have NDk have dual weapons. What happens if your dual Heavy Psycannons one gets taken out? Then you have no more rending shots. IMO the best thing is to mix them up. Take one with a heavy psycannon / heavy silencer, one with a heavy psysilencer, heavy incernerator, etc. That way if one died you don't lose all the good weapons for it for the rest of your army.
The same way you deal with it when any other Focused is taken out, Adapt on the field or loose.
Um, thats what I mean. By mixing and matching, you won't have to adapt as much since you still have other Psycannons/Psylencers on another NDK.
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Post by: Red Corsair
MajorWesJanson wrote:Incinerators will be a lot more popular on some units now that they are not 20 points a pop. Especially on Interceptors. Shunt, Incinerator, bye bye back-field snipers or HW teams, or anything in an opentopped vehicle.
DE are really going to need a boost.
You assume shunt is still a rule. Again, my guess based on the NDK point drop on the PT is that shunt isn't a thing anymore.
71975
Post by: Scolas
It was confirmed that shunt has remained and unchanged
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Post by: ForeverARookie
I think the Gatling Psilencer has actually become a worse option for the Dreadknight, especially if doubles can be taken.
The Heavy Incinerator is awesome, and S6, AP4, Ignores cover, Torrent doesn't really need to be explained.
The Heavy Psycannon with a dual profile is better because it can still fire like it always has, but now has a profile that can target Fliers.
The Gatling Psilencer just got Force. In most circumstances, the chance of actuallly wounding something that you'd need to Instant kill is so small, it isn't worth the chance of Perils of the Warp.
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Post by: akwing00
pretty disappointed with a lot the changes, most of the relics appear to be pretty underwhelming
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Red Corsair wrote: MajorWesJanson wrote:Incinerators will be a lot more popular on some units now that they are not 20 points a pop. Especially on Interceptors. Shunt, Incinerator, bye bye back-field snipers or HW teams, or anything in an opentopped vehicle.
DE are really going to need a boost.
You assume shunt is still a rule. Again, my guess based on the NDK point drop on the PT is that shunt isn't a thing anymore.
Havent read anythign regarding shunt yet.
Though one of the GK specific tactical cards leads me to believe it still exists
Per the bolter/chainsword thread
15) Teleport Attack - 1 VP if you killed a unit with a GK unit that deepstriked, shunted or was teleported by Gate of Infinity this turn
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292163-grey-knights-7e-codex-rumor/page-10
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
ForeverARookie wrote:I think the Gatling Psilencer has actually become a worse option for the Dreadknight, especially if doubles can be taken.
The Heavy Incinerator is awesome, and S6, AP4, Ignores cover, Torrent doesn't really need to be explained.
The Heavy Psycannon with a dual profile is better because it can still fire like it always has, but now has a profile that can target Fliers.
The Gatling Psilencer just got Force. In most circumstances, the chance of actuallly wounding something that you'd need to Instant kill is so small, it isn't worth the chance of Perils of the Warp.
Agreed, I'm starting to think Psylincers are overrated. In most things you want IDed you'll need at least a 5 to wound, THEN you'll need to pass a psychic test, THEN you'll need to see if your opponent gets DTW.
Just pumping them full of Psycannon shots is still better I think...
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Post by: Red Corsair
Scolas wrote:It was confirmed that shunt has remained and unchanged
Source?
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Not sure about the rest of you, but DTW on force is still farily difficult having to roll 6's for each charge.
Its not as easy as people are making it out to be
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Post by: Red Corsair
WrentheFaceless wrote:
15) Teleport Attack - 1 VP if you killed a unit with a GK unit that deepstriked, shunted or was teleported by Gate of Infinity this turn
This is good news, still doubting it is a 30" move though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote:Not sure about the rest of you, but DTW on force is still farily difficult having to roll 6's for each charge.
Its not as easy as people are making it out to be
Yea but if you are wasting dice on force I really don't care. Force is only good against a handful of unit types. Add to that it means your trying to assault and I am OK with it. I honestly don't think force on psilencers is very good. Awesome(cool)? Definitely, and will make some lawl moments. Not reliable as a strategy in the slightest though.
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