gigasnail wrote: it's a 40%ish chance to ID any nid MC with a single model's shooting, less after DtW. it's not super broken but it's not some remote event in the farthest realms of impossibility, either.
Statistically, on a BS4 chassis it takes ~27 shots to ID a T6 3+svMC, so about two rounds of shooting from a Dreadknight to put one down. It takes ~54 shots to put down a T6 5+svFMC, or a T6 2+svMC. That's 5 rounds of shooting.
1 dead MC per every two rounds of shooting or 1 dead MC per every 5 rounds of shooting isn't very efficient. Grav-guns on bikers is a point and click removal unit.
This is the most puzzling thing for me, even a single new unit would have helped sales, everything else you can see why, even if you disagree with it, why they did it, namely short term cash grab.
It doesn't impact me as I already own SM, IG, Inq, etc. codexes and I play with a group who do not mind allies but I feel for those that this is an issue for.
I will be buying the codex but I doubt I'll be playing straight GK at the points levels I play at, 3k and over as I just don't have the depth of options needed by straight GK.
I'm particularly liking the reduction in cost for the NK and its personal teleporter, I think we'll be seeing a ton of these now.
Yes, the codex and the data cards.
Its still worth playing GK (eventually with allies, vanilla SM preferred).
I meant more considering pretty much all the rules were up here... But yeah, I'd love to see the assasins data slate. Hoping the vindicare is still a badass.
Looky Likey wrote: The scans are up on the Mexican Ork's facebook page, I won't post them here due to the Mod post above. What do people think of the confirmed changes?
As a 40k player for 30 years i must admit that this relaese is a huge dissapointment, bouth as a fluffy player and a competetive player. The big four for me being:
- No new model or units
- All of inquisitor, henchmen and assassins gone. I can accept that GW take out those that don't have models and that Inq Xeno etc goes out. But Mallus Inquisitor, henchmen, stormtroopers and assassins should be there. Both for fluff and to flesh out the codex.
- Internal and external balance seems really bad.
- A lot of the nice unique wargear and powers for GK, which wasn't OP is taken out. Shure it's the same with other armies, but doesn't make it better.
Game has only been around for 27 year's unless you time warped to 2017 in which case is the game better?
And actually with the ds shoot/move or Ds move/shoot that alone is going to make GK probably one of the strongest armies/Allies you can have. I mean the Sister's of battle digital crap was way worse. And Eldar was horrible for over 5 year's then they got steriod injected now at least they can win vs space marines unlike when I started I lost every game against them for 3 years which is why I went blood angels.
I think this is really a lost opertunity for GW to make money. If I was in charge i would :
- Keep mallus inquisiors and relaese a plastic inqusitor modell with a lot of different weapons/options. Since a lot of people also ally in a inq., i think it would sell good.
- Keep henchmen and give GK some elite stormtroopers. Should boost sale for the stormtroopers.
- Give GK a jetbike options in fast slot. If GW don't want to invest in one, give GK access to the FW LEGION SCIMITAR PATTERN JETBIKE. It would be fluffy and good for sale.
- Some tweaks to units stats and wargear to make it better but not OP. I think most good players out there could do this in 10 min.
Overall - one of the worst relaeses so far IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think your time playing is off by a few year's 40k was started in 1987. As for the codex the deep striking move and shoot or shoot then move is nasty that alone is great. The worst codex I have seen was the digital sister's which gutted them took away the LR. I think the first eldar codexs was way worse as well. I mean did they ever win against space marines from 2001-2006 ish? Which is why I bought a BA Army. I think in the end there will be so many GK armies at torneys now because of this dex and the change to factions in 7th being all of the imperuim of man battle bros which before they was not.
Yes. I only used Psybolts to pad out points as 20pts a pop, and most of my units have gotten better. My Interceptors and Purifiers got cheaper, my Purifiers got better, my Paladins got cheaper and that Nemesis Banner though. Draigo and Grand Masters got an unnessecary stat reduction; Why drop the BS to 5, Draigo's WS to 6 and his S and T to 4? The old profile was fine. I'd even take him at his old cost for the enhanced profile. Hatred Daemons as a Warlord Trait and AoE Hatred is great. Str7 AP2 is excellent, with hammerhand making it 9. Purity of Spirit is awesome army wide. Aegis is great. Lots of psychic dice. My Paladins are no longer Troops but that detachment suits me fine for having 1 Troop. My only Psycannons are on Paladins so no change for me there. My PA have Incinerators (great buff) and my Termies have a Psilincer. All I need is another HQ and I'm fixed for gaming, and I'v wanted to convert the EC into a Brotherhood Champion for a while now. Either that or repaint my BR Libby to the correct colours or buy a new one and arm him with that book that gives you +1 power.
My Termies now clock out cheaper than a base squad in the previous codex, my Paladins are mostly dirt cheap Halberds for the +1S, my Interceptors with Falchions aren't so bad now.
Santic discipline in the book means I can continue to play 6th, as me and some of my group like to keep it on and enjoy it more than 7th.
And I already have a Dreadknight from last edition. HI, HPC, PT and changable sword or Hammer.
BlaxicanX wrote: So, what would it take for you to be bothered by a release?
I know this wasn't aimed at me, but if they started having good units or characters only in the limited edition codexes that would be the final straw for me, I would switch to erm "obtaining" copies of the codexes from that point forth.
Yes. I only used Psybolts to pad out points as 20pts a pop, and most of my units have gotten better. My Interceptors and Purifiers got cheaper, my Purifiers got better, my Paladins got cheaper and that Nemesis Banner though. Draigo and Grand Masters got an unnessecary stat reduction; Why drop the BS to 5, Draigo's WS to 6 and his S and T to 4? The old profile was fine. I'd even take him at his old cost for the enhanced profile. Hatred Daemons as a Warlord Trait and AoE Hatred is great. Str7 AP2 is excellent, with hammerhand making it 9. Purity of Spirit is awesome army wide. Aegis is great. Lots of psychic dice. My Paladins are no longer Troops but that detachment suits me fine for having 1 Troop. My only Psycannons are on Paladins so no change for me there. My PA have Incinerators (great buff) and my Termies have a Psilincer. All I need is another HQ and I'm fixed for gaming, and I'v wanted to convert the EC into a Brotherhood Champion for a while now. Either that or repaint my BR Libby to the correct colours or buy a new one and arm him with that book that gives you +1 power.
My Termies now clock out cheaper than a base squad in the previous codex, my Paladins are mostly dirt cheap Halberds for the +1S, my Interceptors with Falchions aren't so bad now.
Santic discipline in the book means I can continue to play 6th, as me and some of my group like to keep it on and enjoy it more than 7th.
And I already have a Dreadknight from last edition. HI, HPC, PT and changable sword or Hammer.
And that cover though...
How did pallies get cheaper... they're still 55 a pop plus weapon tax. Also I'll prob wait for a battle report with the new codex to see what happens to my army, I have many fliers in my meta... So not much helping me there.
I think a lot of people might be missing the point of the new codex and the direction that GW are taking. Gone are full GK army's say hello to ally's with a purpose. GK's will be used as a small deep strike first turn ally. There will be an inquisition codex and with the quality of SM's, IG and IK's as battle brothers. People need to start mixing it up with the fluff to make some interesting cross codex combos. It's time to be positive again. There's some good stuff here. We don't want OP codexes every time.
Yes. I only used Psybolts to pad out points as 20pts a pop, and most of my units have gotten better. My Interceptors and Purifiers got cheaper, my Purifiers got better, my Paladins got cheaper and that Nemesis Banner though. Draigo and Grand Masters got an unnessecary stat reduction; Why drop the BS to 5, Draigo's WS to 6 and his S and T to 4? The old profile was fine. I'd even take him at his old cost for the enhanced profile. Hatred Daemons as a Warlord Trait and AoE Hatred is great. Str7 AP2 is excellent, with hammerhand making it 9. Purity of Spirit is awesome army wide. Aegis is great. Lots of psychic dice. My Paladins are no longer Troops but that detachment suits me fine for having 1 Troop. My only Psycannons are on Paladins so no change for me there. My PA have Incinerators (great buff) and my Termies have a Psilincer. All I need is another HQ and I'm fixed for gaming, and I'v wanted to convert the EC into a Brotherhood Champion for a while now. Either that or repaint my BR Libby to the correct colours or buy a new one and arm him with that book that gives you +1 power.
My Termies now clock out cheaper than a base squad in the previous codex, my Paladins are mostly dirt cheap Halberds for the +1S, my Interceptors with Falchions aren't so bad now.
Santic discipline in the book means I can continue to play 6th, as me and some of my group like to keep it on and enjoy it more than 7th.
And I already have a Dreadknight from last edition. HI, HPC, PT and changable sword or Hammer.
And that cover though...
How did pallies get cheaper... they're still 55 a pop plus weapon tax. Also I'll prob wait for a battle report with the new codex to see what happens to my army, I have many fliers in my meta... So not much helping me there.
A ten man Paladin Squad armed as I do is cheaper in this codex than the previous one.
Yes. I only used Psybolts to pad out points as 20pts a pop, and most of my units have gotten better. My Interceptors and Purifiers got cheaper, my Purifiers got better, my Paladins got cheaper and that Nemesis Banner though. Draigo and Grand Masters got an unnessecary stat reduction; Why drop the BS to 5, Draigo's WS to 6 and his S and T to 4? The old profile was fine. I'd even take him at his old cost for the enhanced profile. Hatred Daemons as a Warlord Trait and AoE Hatred is great. Str7 AP2 is excellent, with hammerhand making it 9. Purity of Spirit is awesome army wide. Aegis is great. Lots of psychic dice. My Paladins are no longer Troops but that detachment suits me fine for having 1 Troop. My only Psycannons are on Paladins so no change for me there. My PA have Incinerators (great buff) and my Termies have a Psilincer. All I need is another HQ and I'm fixed for gaming, and I'v wanted to convert the EC into a Brotherhood Champion for a while now. Either that or repaint my BR Libby to the correct colours or buy a new one and arm him with that book that gives you +1 power.
My Termies now clock out cheaper than a base squad in the previous codex, my Paladins are mostly dirt cheap Halberds for the +1S, my Interceptors with Falchions aren't so bad now.
Santic discipline in the book means I can continue to play 6th, as me and some of my group like to keep it on and enjoy it more than 7th.
And I already have a Dreadknight from last edition. HI, HPC, PT and changable sword or Hammer.
And that cover though...
How did pallies get cheaper... they're still 55 a pop plus weapon tax. Also I'll prob wait for a battle report with the new codex to see what happens to my army, I have many fliers in my meta... So not much helping me there.
A ten man Paladin Squad armed as I do is cheaper in this codex than the previous one.
I think your time playing is off by a few year's 40k was started in 1987. As for the codex the deep striking move and shoot or shoot then move is nasty that alone is great. The worst codex I have seen was the digital sister's which gutted them took away the LR. I think the first eldar codexs was way worse as well. I mean did they ever win against space marines from 2001-2006 ish? Which is why I bought a BA Army. I think in the end there will be so many GK armies at torneys now because of this dex and the change to factions in 7th being all of the imperuim of man battle bros which before they was not.
Lol. Times run fast for us old folks ! We see the big numbers only. So 27 years then !
I guess you refere to the nemis strike force detachment. Yeah shure fluffy but for competive play i would rate it bad:
- you have to make the reserve rolls. So on 1 and 2 you don't get the unit. Not reliable compared to drop pods.
- scatter problems
- interceptor armies are still a issue
- and what are you dropping which have good shooting ? No one is afraid of stormbolters without psyammo. And psycannons is just ok.
- And no one in the detachment has objective secured
If you want deep strike alpha strike look to drop pods, SW grey hunters with 3 meltas, fast slot drop pods with centurions etc.
In the new GK codex dreadknights seems good. Libby and terminators ok, and the rest meh. If you want a single good libby go Tigurius og Loth if FW is allowed. Or maybe even a inq. with grenades. GK psychic powers had some merits in 7.ed before this codex, because you had a big warp batteries from henchmen and vechiles. That is all gone now.
Jimbanana123 wrote: I think a lot of people might be missing the point of the new codex and the direction that GW are taking. Gone are full GK army's say hello to ally's with a purpose. GK's will be used as a small deep strike first turn ally. There will be an inquisition codex and with the quality of SM's, IG and IK's as battle brothers. People need to start mixing it up with the fluff to make some interesting cross codex combos. It's time to be positive again. There's some good stuff here. We don't want OP codexes every time.
I totally agree. So your standard non gk army gets a cheap libby and a squad of cheap terms that is going to huert something or ya they can hold objectives as well. If yr GK army is weak anti armor get a knight that will fix that. Be exact I think a knight is the answer to armor , mc,or hoards that was needed.
This is how a Sisters death spiral starts. If masses of people actually do try to sell their armies, the book will have lackluster sales. Anyone who does buy in will buy used models from the secondary market because their are no new kits and the glut of much cheaper used figures.
GW sees bad sales, says "no one's interested in that army." And next thing you know, you've been sistered.
Goresaw wrote: This is how a Sisters death spiral starts. If masses of people actually do try to sell their armies, the book will have lackluster sales. Anyone who does buy in will buy used models from the secondary market because their are no new kits and the glut of much cheaper used figures.
GW sees bad sales, says "no one's interested in that army." And next thing you know, you've been sistered.
I feel ya brother. I thought that about space wolves but hay we got a flier some new toys I'm happy there. Nect is BA for me and maybe just maybe they will throw me a bone and give my Sister's something heck talon for that and my land raider back ill be happy. But hay I can always throw the nude nuns now in my deepatriking BALR since they like each other now or heck in my BA storm Raven for lols.
Well, I don't think there is an analogy to the SB death spiral.
The Inquistion and GK in particular are part of the fluff and cannot easily be dropped.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I don't think there is no analogy to the SB death spiral.
The Inquistion and GK in particular are part of the fluff and cannot easily be dropped.
Agreed. Also, GW will only look at this purely from a sales point of view and while most tournament gamers are saying the codex is rubbish, the average gamer may think it's the best thing ever! And even if the average gamer hates it, I think there will still be good sales thanks to the ally rules.
PhillyT wrote: Honestly, the amount of tears spilling forth on this thread is hilarious.
I you are upset about losing the Inquisition forces and assassins, you can just include them as allies. If you are crying about needing to buy other books, the Inquisition book is identical to the old GK rules in almost every way with one or two items being different in points.
This sort of loaded wording does nothing positive for the discussion. Please dial down the hyperbole.
Come on now, most of the last 30 pages have been pure hyperbolic drivel.
Complaining that Inquisiton forces have been removed ignores the fact that the inquisition "book" we currently have is identical to the rules listed in the current GK book plus warlord traits and a couple relics.
Similarly the assassins will likely be the same as the current book.
Complaining about having to buy multiple books by current players is somewhat empty since it is reasonable to assume that those current players have the book and can therefore pull what they need from them and add them to the new GK book using the loser 7th edition army construction method.
Come on now, most of the last 30 pages have been pure hyperbolic drivel.
Complaining that Inquisiton forces have been removed ignores the fact that the inquisition "book" we currently have is identical to the rules listed in the current GK book plus warlord traits and a couple relics.
Similarly the assassins will likely be the same as the current book.
Complaining about having to buy multiple books by current players is somewhat empty since it is reasonable to assume that those current players have the book and can therefore pull what they need from them and add them to the new GK book using the loser 7th edition army construction method.
Units in codex I and old GK was not the same. No objective secured henchmen as an example.
The big issue however is that most GTs don't allow you to use more than 2 detachments. So in a friendly game shure you can take GK allied with IG, and then some henchmen from codex I and assains etc. But not in GTs. Hopefully this will change over time. GW of course don't care for Gts.
Emulgator wrote: Since i never owned a single DK, because to this day i cannot stand that awful awful model, does anyone know of a good alternative model for the DK since I'm forced to get at least 2 if i ever want to play my GKs again ?
Convert it. Which mostly involves an Ork Deff Dread plate and cutting away / not installing the baby carrier. Check out the pick in my gallery.
Im sort of confused, i get the first turn deep strike thing and there are some possibilities... But even as an ally this codex is quite lackluster. What would be the reason someone would dish out the money for the sub par codex and models to start the army? Who really wants to play GK minus the people that already have the models, and if one would with the amount of used GK on the market already who would buy something new. Doesn't sound good for model sales, guess thats why they aren't any new ones.
Jimbanana123 wrote: I think a lot of people might be missing the point of the new codex and the direction that GW are taking. Gone are full GK army's say hello to ally's with a purpose. GK's will be used as a small deep strike first turn ally. There will be an inquisition codex and with the quality of SM's, IG and IK's as battle brothers. People need to start mixing it up with the fluff to make some interesting cross codex combos. It's time to be positive again. There's some good stuff here. We don't want OP codexes every time.
Nope.
I think a lot of people ( would even go as far as saying the majority) understand that GW are trying to make purchasing allies and formations/dataslates a necessity.
However, many players like having a viable, mono-codex army and have enjoyed being able to deploy one in previous editions. That they are unhappy at essentially being told by the company to branch out into poly-codex combinations and 'forge the narrative' (an immensely patronising way of palming off criticism about lax game and product design) simply in order to prop up GW's ailing bottom line is entirely understandable.
Have you ever had someone randomly tell you to smile? Have you ever had them say that when something bad has happened? " It's time to be positive", is much like that.
N.B. I italicised viable because there's a huge difference between that and OP. Not everyone wants an OP dex for their army, they just want something that has more than a couple of builds and that allows them to rock up to a game with an even chance of winning.
After mocking up some lists and more-importantly sleeping on it, I'm still gutted -- but in the effort of trying to look on the bright side here are my thoughts.
Basically the Grey Knights went from having a few neat builds to being a very boring army. They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.
PAGK suck with the exception of Purifiers and situationally Interceptors. There's no reason to take SS at 15 points less than Purifiers unless you're hell bent on being battle-forged, which is pointless with this codex.
I'll be running two ML3 librarians, 20 purifiers w/ four Incinerators combat squadded into four units of five, two squads of terminators, three dreadknights and two techmarines with conversion beamers -- because it's basically the only way to get ranged AT on the cheap.
I think the change to halberds sucks against some armies, but is better across the board. S5 in CC helps mitigate the loss of psybolt to an extent, but not really because we all know the game is skewed heavily towards shooting.
The HQ options are all over the place points wise. It's hard to justify taking anything but ML3 librarians at 135 pts vs. more-expensive GM and champions that are one-trick ponies.
I'll probably have one librarian roll on Sanctic, the other on Telepathy and hope for invis. Sanctified flame spam on Purifiers is nothing to sneeze at, provided you're not facing an army with easy deny.
I think Grey Knights can still be viable. No, they'll never ever top table as a single army -- heck, they're probably the worst single army in 40k now, but there's still a few things that could work in a local setting.
Auswin wrote: They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.
I may be to negative, but a honest question: why would someone want to ally in some Grey knight ? What can they give, that you can't get better from other armies ??
I'd be tempted into running something like this with pure GK's:
2 of the GK Detachment:
2 Lvl3 Libbies
2 5 Man Terminator w/Psycannon Squads
4 Dreadknights w/H. Incinerator & Teleporter
2 10 Man Interceptors w/ 2 Incinerator if I can find 30pts to drop otherwise I'll probably drop 2 from one squad and upgrade all the guns to psycannons since they'll be in the position to use them best at that point.
But more likely I'll be running GK's w/the Champions of Fenris detachment so I can take dreads as my compulsory choices in my allied force for ranged support and then run the normal force org so I can have 3 DK's. Also hoping for some good formations that maybe include DK's
Auswin wrote: They will be arguably the best allies in 40k for a lot of armies, but will struggle as an army in their own right.
I may be to negative, but a honest question: why would someone want to ally in some Grey knight ? What can they give, that you can't get better from other armies ??
135 pt ML3 librarians that are denying offensive powers on a 4+ (often 3+) is nothing to sneeze at. Also, I can see some centstar shenanigans using gate to move them around the board.
Pair that with NDKs and cheap hammernators as troops and you have a nice base, especially given the growing propensity for seeing demons in the meta or as allies. Offering some solid all-around options with anti-demon is nice. I just think GK suffer from diminished returns the more of them you take.
Depended on what army you play, i would rather have Tigurius than a GK Libby as ally. If you do IG blobs a much better choice IMO is the Inqusitor from codex I with psyker and the grenades. Or cotaez.
For the knight. He is good, but will have problems alone. He is not that hard to kill. He has some shooting, but the close combat is the important one. The problem is delivering him. For 200 points i would rather have some mroe shooting, maybe 3 centurions in a pod) or a riptide, wraithknight etc. But depends on your armies.
Yeah those are the two best things in the new codex. So if we are talking allies that means 1 hq 1 troop and 1 heavy. So one Lib, 1 NDK and probably one five man plain GKSS squad to keep the troop tax down. Unless 5 GKTs actually compliments the build of the main force.
Edited to add - if doing double CAD instead of allies you could bring two or more NDKs to compliment the main army force. But then that means spending points on two troops instead of one...
135 pt ML3 librarians that are denying offensive powers on a 4+ (often 3+) is nothing to sneeze at. Also, I can see some centstar shenanigans using gate to move them around the board.
I would say that the deny on 3+ is mostly irrelevant. Almost all the good psychic powers are not targeting you, but are blessings and summoning. So you are still on your 6+ to deny. The difference now is that GK has lost their warp charge battery, so it will be harder to deny those.
ForeverARookie wrote: They are close combat Psykers, who can't cast their psychic powers when in close combat. They have been become a one-trick pony, and all of the builds are going to start looking alike, more so than the 5th edition Codex.
You keep repeating this, you're aware you can cast blessings and maledictions in combat right?
You're right, I misread the psychic powers. I was thrown off when Cleansing Flame went from CC only to Can't be used in CC.
Hulksmash wrote: I'd be tempted into running something like this with pure GK's:
2 of the GK Detachment:
2 Lvl3 Libbies
2 5 Man Terminator w/Psycannon Squads
4 Dreadknights w/H. Incinerator & Teleporter
2 10 Man Interceptors w/ 2 Incinerator if I can find 30pts to drop otherwise I'll probably drop 2 from one squad and upgrade all the guns to psycannons since they'll be in the position to use them best at that point.
But more likely I'll be running GK's w/the Champions of Fenris detachment so I can take dreads as my compulsory choices in my allied force for ranged support and then run the normal force org so I can have 3 DK's. Also hoping for some good formations that maybe include DK's
Want it be a problem that in your list you don't have any objective secured units ??
Well i guess we have totaly different opinions on that. On relic and kill point missions i accept your view, but not on the rest of the normal missions.
And a lot of GTs are incorporating some versions of maelstrom (like BAO and ETC) or other version where scoring is important (like Nova)
What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..
Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.
Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.
Brutishcard wrote: What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..
With gate and AP2 i think he's ok. Problem is the LOW-slot, getting enough warp charges to do anything and not making paladinds troops. Even though he got cheaper, it's a lot of points, like 2 libbys.
Brutishcard wrote: What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..
I think he's neat, that's the best word for it. He's better in combat than the previous iteration, but all the GM took a hit with the loss of grand strategy.
The problem is that being unable to charge out of gate means he'll suffer from similar problems to Typhus -- big, slow and something people will just avoid rather than trying to deal with.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.
Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.
I seem to disagree all the time
Say hello to big IG blobs, or necron warriors jumping out from flyers, sw troops and deticated transport flyers etc, eldar jetbikes and wave serpents swooping in one at a time at the objective. In my games in 7.ed obejctive secured has been really important.
Brutishcard wrote: What's the thinking on draigo? At first look he seems pretty damn good.. Probably stands a better chance against abaddon and co now.. Ap 2 at initiative could even stand a chance against some of the big space wolf heavy hitters..
I think he's neat, that's the best word for it. He's better in combat than the previous iteration, but all the GM took a hit with the loss of grand strategy.
The problem is that being unable to charge out of gate means he'll suffer from similar problems to Typhus -- big, slow and something people will just avoid rather than trying to deal with.
well he can be put into the NSF detachment and be your Warlord to grant a Hatred Daemons bubble. I thin if you were to have him in a squad of Pallies like before, deep striking with the 4 Psycannons and then running to escape Demolisher Cannons and then shooting would work wonders. He's gotten better with the Titansword being AP2 and Str 7 or 9 depending on Hammerhand, but the lower toughness, BS and WS are annoying but not game breaking. He's worse against Daemons and Psykers with less than a 2+ save. That's about it.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, obsec doesn't really come up that much. Most people's obsec units that aren't easily killed are normally front line units that I get more access too. If they are hiders the above list wouldn't have a problem with them thanks to mobility. There basically won't be any obsec left at the end of the game.
Obsec is a good rule. But there are force orgs that are worth more such as the Champs of Fenris or the GK one.
I seem to disagree all the time
Say hello to big IG blobs, or necron warriors jumping out from flyers, sw troops and deticated transport flyers etc, eldar jetbikes and wave serpents swooping in one at a time at the objective. In my games in 7.ed obejctive secured has been really important.
Honestly it depends on what you run. But with the above GK list IG wouldn't be around by turn 5. Necron Warriors would need bottom of turn and for it to end that turn. Jetbikes can be chased down by jump pack dreadknights w/H. Incinerators or by interceptors. Wave Serpents can't avoid the DK's. Not to mention that you can screen objectives to keep people 3" away. Obsec is good. It's not something I build my lists around.
And don't forget everyone that for just 20pts you can buy a comm-link now for re-rolls. So turn 1 your really could drop your entire army in on top of people (less the dude using the com-link) if you wanted to go that route.
Honestly it depends on what you run. But with the above GK list IG wouldn't be around by turn 5. Necron Warriors would need bottom of turn and for it to end that turn. Jetbikes can be chased down by jump pack dreadknights w/H. Incinerators or by interceptors. Wave Serpents can't avoid the DK's. Not to mention that you can screen objectives to keep people 3" away. Obsec is good. It's not something I build my lists around.
And don't forget everyone that for just 20pts you can buy a comm-link now for re-rolls. So turn 1 your really could drop your entire army in on top of people if you wanted to go that route.
Exactly, at this point its too easily countered to be something that you absolutely must have, its more of a nice bonus. All I have to do is get you out of that 3" bubble, and if you're using a blob squad it was unlikely I was going to get that objective anyway without some serious attention dedicated towards it.
In case you missed it, all the pages are at the bottom of the page. Get it before the lawyer death squads take it down.
I believe about 20% of this.... The pages looks funny to me. Plus all inquisitorial units gone? What are they filling the book with then? Plus my Inquisitorial downloaded codex didn't come with any points values, you have to reference the Grey Knights book to get point values. Maybe my downloaded codex is the only one like that /shrug.
Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.
We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.
Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...
Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.
Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.
And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).
I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.
Diablix wrote: Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.
We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.
Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...
Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.
Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.
And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).
I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.
I see people moan over lack of new units, stuff getting ripped out of the codex, and lack of balance. Not that they want GK to be more OP. And GK havent't been OP since 5.ed. But at the start of 7-ed after the FAQ i think they was at the right level.
And by the way - GK don't have any +1 inv bubble of 12". The sactuary +1 inv is only on psyker (and his unit). The demons however have a nice 12" bubble of +1 inv and no scatter in the cursed eart power. Of course they are bouth warp charge 1, so so much for GW balance.
I see people moan over lack of new units, stuff getting ripped out of the codex, and lack of balance. Not that they want GK to be more OP. And GK havent't been OP since 5.ed. But at the start of 7-ed after the FAQ i think they was at the right level.
I read a lot of whining about a nerfed useless codex, with people already swearing they will burn their GK army sacrificing it to the Dark Gods.
I read a very few people telling what you are stating. And honestly:
1) No new units: ok, I understand and agree on that. Frankly I don't feel like the Imperium is lacking choices, though. And it seems to me that GK alone already have any kind of toy bar drop pods.
2) Removed units: most of them were Inquisition units, that are pretty much available as a dataslate / allies. And don't tell me you have to buy another book, they are pretty much the same as before, you can live without the new book.
And by the way - GK don't have any +1 inv bubble of 12". The sactuary +1 inv is only on psyker (and his unit). The demons however have a nice 12" bubble of +1 inv and no scatter in the cursed eart power. Of course they are bouth warp charge 1, so so much for GW balance.
Yes, you're right, the bubble is only about daemons and difficult terrain (nothing useful, I agree).
However the Grey Knights have so many warp charges that you can easily spread it out to everyone needs it without much efforts.
And complaining about balance against daemons does not make sense at all, no one says that daemons or eldar are way too effective. But they are an old codex, and you don't fix an overpowered codex by releasing another one. So yes, daemons are too good, let's hope they will tune it down to the right level with the new codex.
By the way, before you say that Cursed Earth is a BRB book and daemons will have it nevertheless: yes, it's true, but since it will be their power sphere it is possible that the overall balance of the codex will take that in account. I know, it's GW, so it's unlikely, however I feel it's unfair to complain about something they probably didn't even start working on yet.
Diablix wrote: Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.
We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.
Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...
Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.
Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.
And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).
I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.
1. Santuary is not a bubble.
2. They can't put "a lot" of S7 rending on the board now. The change to salvo renders psycannons expensive and terrible on PAGK.
3. How are you generating "20+ warp charges" without effort? Even combat squad shenanigans and two ML3 librarians wont get close to that in a reasonably pointed game. The loss of psychic pilot on tanks and transports ensured that.
4. Paying for a storm bolter and force sword on every troop isn't a benefit, it's a tax that's occasionally useful. There's a reason power weapons are largely out of the meta. AP3 simply isn't that great against anything but MEQ. You're every over-paying to kill easy stuff, or not hitting other things hard enough. It's a similar reason why Howling Banshees are lackluster, you're overpaying for power weapons on a squad that doesn't need that many. Furthermore, losing psybolts took away the one force multiplier GK had in the shooting phase. That helped offset their low model count.
5. Falling in line with Orks is not a good thing. AM and SW are vastly more competitive than either Orks or GK, largely because they have things the other two lack -- options.
Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
Well besides Tau lol, the GK deep striking option could be good against some other armies.
What is the bare minimum one needs to take in that special GK formation? I missed that tid bit.
Also, I am assuming any beacons it whatever on allied drop pods wouldn't help the first turn GK deep strikers as they wouldn't be there at the start of the turn? But any beacons or homers or whatever deployed before the first turn would?
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
The GK army would be thrown at one of your flanks to bring it down on turn 1.
At least this should be the plan.
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
The GK army would be thrown at one of your flanks to bring it down on turn 1.
At least this should be the plan.
Your opponent would have to be pretty inexperienced to place their army in such a way as this would ever be an effective strategy. The problem is that you can't choose which unit comes down, you're rolling a 3+ for each unit in the formation and if you roll badly....
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.
You run in your shooting phase so interceptor and big ap2 plates will hit you first
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
The GK army would be thrown at one of your flanks to bring it down on turn 1.
At least this should be the plan.
Your opponent would have to be pretty inexperienced to place their army in such a way as this would ever be an effective strategy. The problem is that you can't choose which unit comes down, you're rolling a 3+ for each unit in the formation and if you roll badly....
Nothing is save.
However, I'd give it a try every day. The GK army needs to get at arm's range to do damage.
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
The GK army would be thrown at one of your flanks to bring it down on turn 1.
At least this should be the plan.
Your opponent would have to be pretty inexperienced to place their army in such a way as this would ever be an effective strategy. The problem is that you can't choose which unit comes down, you're rolling a 3+ for each unit in the formation and if you roll badly....
As people have said GK player could have com relay. On the other hand the other player could have warlord trait to give you -1 on reserve roll, -1 from AM command squad and so on. Myself i would not like to be dependent on making a 3+ reserve roll for all my units in turn 1. Risky for arriving just some units, and enemy being abel to pick you apart. I fail to see that the detachment special rules are very good.
1) No new units: ok, I understand and agree on that. Frankly I don't feel like the Imperium is lacking choices, though. And it seems to me that GK alone already have any kind of toy bar drop pods.
2) Removed units: most of them were Inquisition units, that are pretty much available as a dataslate / allies. And don't tell me you have to buy another book, they are pretty much the same as before, you can live without the new book.
1) Agreed: You can always ally with SW and use their empties.
2) Agreed: They are still there, you just have to use allies. Monkey boys and =I= still hanging out for the taking.
Tyfus wrote: As people have said GK player could have com relay. On the other hand the other player could have warlord trait to give you -1 on reserve roll, -1 from AM command squad and so on. Myself i would not like to be dependent on making a 3+ reserve roll for all my units in turn 1. Risky for arriving just some units, and enemy being abel to pick you apart. I fail to see that the detachment special rules are very good.
Yes, but that is something you should know before deployment giving you a chance to adjust your strategy.
Diablix wrote: Frankly it looks to me that too many people were used to be overpowered here, got "nerfed" during 6th and 7th and for some strange reason really expected they deserved to obtain again their overpowered status.
We're talking about a codex that can spam +1Invuln "12 bubbles, which means 4++ DK, 4++ "naked" termies, 6++ LRs or 2++ Draigo. A codex that can place on the board a lot of Str 7 Rending shots, all on pretty durable units. A codex that will generate 20+ warp charge without effort or extra cost. Come on, you don't even know what is to play with a codex that really sucks.
Yeah, it's true, a TAC squad costs you an arm and a leg and dies almost as quickly as any other PA marine. But you have storm bolter and force swords... you cannot just expect them to cost 15 points each, it would be utterly insane. Maybe they could leave you the option to have the default CCW, but then they would just be standard marines...
Maybe cheaper troops, with less uber weapons and more WS/BS5 across the board to represent their "elite" status would be more competitive, but I like this way better.
Only playtesting will tell, but I feel this is a solid codex, which falls in line with Orks, SW and Imperial Guard.. they 4 are balanced pretty well, both internally and externally, at least for GW standards.
And I don't agree with those who say that Orks and SW are boring or mono-build, even if they have their flaws (Orks being too much shooty, as an example).
I feel they are improving in the general balance, honestly. If all 7th edition codex will be like this would be much better than 6th edition, with Eldar, Daemons, Tau and... nothing else.
20+ Warpcharges? Only 3000+ point games or Henchmen nonsence will get you 20+ Warpcharges. I've built a lot of lists and pure Grey Knights (the 5th edition Codex) average to 1 Warp Charge point for each 150 points fielded.
Our Strike Squads dieing "almost as quickly", try exactly as quickly. They are T4 with a 3+ save, exactly like Vanilla Marines, and none of our special rules change that. Storm Bolter? +1 shot for each model for the smallest army in the entire game. Even with the Storm Bolters we're so outgunned we might as well be throwing rocks and sticks.
Asking for a fair chance is not the same as wanting to be OP. What happened to us was the equivalent of a shooting competition where one guy can do some sweet trick shots, and the other contestants are jealous, so to "ballance" the competition, they cut off his trigger finger. So now he is struggling to even get to the trigger with one of his other fingers.
We lost Inquisitors (Our only cheap HQ options), Henchmen (the only really game breaking thing the army had), Assassins (a unique flavor we once had and now have to pay $20 to get back), Grandmaster Mordrak (1st turn Deepstrike without scatter), Thawn (a renewable Objective Secured character), Psybolts on Infantry (+1 Strength on Storm Bolters made us on par with the shooting of other armies up to 24"), Psybolts on Vehicles (Notably under priced, but again, they gave the LRC and Stormraven some umph to make opponents care that they were being shot at), Storm Raven's Lascannon & Multi-melta options (Why take those away? It's only reasonable chance to take down fliers are the missiles), Psychic Pilot on all transports (Fewer Warp charges, and Vehicles can't give themselves a save anymore), the usability of Psycannons on any non-relentless model.
What did we get new? Soulblaze on Flamers and Purifier CC attacks, some lowered point costs, Brotherhood Champion being made fieldable again, the Heavy Psycannon got a dual profile, the Gatling Psilencer got Force (bring it's usefullness up to roughly 7%), changed profiles on Nemesis Force Weapons, and a ne FOC, which allows units to Deepstrike on turn 1 on a 3+, but denies the entire Detachment Objective Secured, Teleport Homers available for everyone (but too bad they'll usually be WORTHLESS, as that first wave of teleporting units will have full scatter and could possibly be all of hem).
Welcome to Codex: Dreadknight (+ a friendly Librarian with a Terminator Entourage).
From my understanding of the leaked codex you can take a 5 man terminator squad 165pts
-give one terminator with a psycannon 20pts
-give the Justicar a psycannon as Justicars can now bring a special weapon 20pts
-give them all halberds 10pts
-total of 215 pts.
As long as you keep a battle-forged list you can re-roll deep strike on turn one for all reserved units which would be an alpha strike of 8 s7 rending shots.
Next turn if they all survive and charge its 15 s7 ap3 attacks, that could take on an armor 13 furioso dread. For 10 points swap out a halberd for a hammer and get a few s10 ap2 hits in.
I'm reading some serious alpha strike board control here.
Throw in the inquisitorial codex to get an inquisitor in Terminator Armor Prescience and 3 servo skulls for 119pts = 3 more wounds D6 less scatter and twin linked.
From my understanding of the leaked codex you can take a 5 man terminator squad 165pts
-give one terminator with a psycannon 20pts
-give the Justicar a psycannon as Justicars can now bring a special weapon 20pts
-give them all halberds 10pts
-total of 215 pts.
As long as you keep a battle-forged list you can re-roll deep strike on turn one for all reserved units which would be an alpha strike of 8 s7 rending shots.
Next turn if they all survive and charge its 15 s7 ap3 attacks, that could take on an armor 13 furioso dread. For 10 points swap out a halberd for a hammer and get a few s10 ap2 hits in.
I'm reading some serious alpha strike board control here.
Throw in the inquisitorial codex to get an inquisitor in Terminator Armor Prescience and 3 servo skulls for 119pts = 3 more wounds D6 less scatter an twin linked.
Justicar can't take a psycannon, give him (or someone else) a hammer instead. Also, with Hammerheand now always being s+2 I don't really think you need halberds on termies. Swords will do just fine, saving you even more points.
Even with the Storm Bolters we're so outgunned we might as well be throwing rocks and sticks.
We lost Inquisitors (Our only cheap HQ options), Henchmen (the only really game breaking thing the army had), Assassins (a unique flavor we once had and now have to pay $20 to get back), Grandmaster Mordrak (1st turn Deepstrike without scatter), Thawn (a renewable Objective Secured character), Psybolts on Infantry (+1 Strength on Storm Bolters made us on par with the shooting of other armies up to 24"), Psybolts on Vehicles (Notably under priced, but again, they gave the LRC and Stormraven some umph to make opponents care that they were being shot at), Storm Raven's Lascannon & Multi-melta options (Why take those away? It's only reasonable chance to take down fliers are the missiles), Psychic Pilot on all transports (Fewer Warp charges, and Vehicles can't give themselves a save anymore), the usability of Psycannons on any non-relentless model.
Welcome to Codex: Dreadknight (+ a friendly Librarian with a Terminator Entourage).
1) Storm Bolters are much better than rocks and sticks.
2) You didn't "lose" them - they are their own dataslate - which still has PSYBOLT AMMO
3) What GK army wasn't already taking 3 Dreadknights?
And can we knock on your door when GW-legal decided to shut down this forum?
So please, remove those. A link to the /tg/ would be enough, despite not being fully allowed.
It's a link. Suck it up. If the mods don't approve, they'll remove them.
From my understanding of the leaked codex you can take a 5 man terminator squad 165pts
-give one terminator with a psycannon 20pts
-give the Justicar a psycannon as Justicars can now bring a special weapon 20pts
-give them all halberds 10pts
-total of 215 pts.
As long as you keep a battle-forged list you can re-roll deep strike on turn one for all reserved units which would be an alpha strike of 8 s7 rending shots.
Next turn if they all survive and charge its 15 s7 ap3 attacks, that could take on an armor 13 furioso dread. For 10 points swap out a halberd for a hammer and get a few s10 ap2 hits in.
I'm reading some serious alpha strike board control here.
Throw in the inquisitorial codex to get an inquisitor in Terminator Armor Prescience and 3 servo skulls for 119pts = 3 more wounds D6 less scatter an twin linked.
Justicar can't take a psycannon, give him (or someone else) a hammer instead. Also, with Hammerheand now always being s+2 I don't really think you need halberds on termies. Swords will do just fine, saving you even more points.
I'd take the Halberds just so I don't have to bother with Hammerhand and stuff all the warp dice at making sure I get off Force.
Even with the Storm Bolters we're so outgunned we might as well be throwing rocks and sticks.
We lost Inquisitors (Our only cheap HQ options), Henchmen (the only really game breaking thing the army had), Assassins (a unique flavor we once had and now have to pay $20 to get back), Grandmaster Mordrak (1st turn Deepstrike without scatter), Thawn (a renewable Objective Secured character), Psybolts on Infantry (+1 Strength on Storm Bolters made us on par with the shooting of other armies up to 24"), Psybolts on Vehicles (Notably under priced, but again, they gave the LRC and Stormraven some umph to make opponents care that they were being shot at), Storm Raven's Lascannon & Multi-melta options (Why take those away? It's only reasonable chance to take down fliers are the missiles), Psychic Pilot on all transports (Fewer Warp charges, and Vehicles can't give themselves a save anymore), the usability of Psycannons on any non-relentless model.
Welcome to Codex: Dreadknight (+ a friendly Librarian with a Terminator Entourage).
1) Storm Bolters are much better than rocks and sticks.
2) You didn't "lose" them - they are their own dataslate - which still has PSYBOLT AMMO
3) What GK army wasn't already taking 3 Dreadknights?
It's utterly dumbfounding at this point to see indivuals shelling out $50 for a book of recycled fluff and cut nearly in half in value, even more when all the rules are leaked, and pay $8 for the tiniest pack of cards to boot. You're actively being ripped off. There's no hyperbole, no judgment, just the straight fact. Whether the army is good or bad, you're getting the equivalent to errata in any other game for $50. This is why GW hasn't folded terribly yet.
What would it take for folks to wisen up and stop paying so that we might get good releases? I can literally own all the rules for Warmahordes for $60. All the rules. For life. With free updates. You're paying $50 to lose half the army. I just cannot comprehend this and it saddens me. I hope that someday folks will find other games they like and realize their game dollars can go much farther and still have a great time with friends. And that the subk cost fallacy is just that, a fallacy before the "I've invested so much money and time in my army" argument comes up. I can point to my own in this situation and still say "no."
And can we knock on your door when GW-legal decided to shut down this forum?
So please, remove those. A link to the /tg/ would be enough, despite not being fully allowed.
It's a link. Suck it up. If the mods don't approve, they'll remove them.
And here's a link to a gallery of what I posted previously:
Even with the Storm Bolters we're so outgunned we might as well be throwing rocks and sticks.
We lost Inquisitors (Our only cheap HQ options), Henchmen (the only really game breaking thing the army had), Assassins (a unique flavor we once had and now have to pay $20 to get back), Grandmaster Mordrak (1st turn Deepstrike without scatter), Thawn (a renewable Objective Secured character), Psybolts on Infantry (+1 Strength on Storm Bolters made us on par with the shooting of other armies up to 24"), Psybolts on Vehicles (Notably under priced, but again, they gave the LRC and Stormraven some umph to make opponents care that they were being shot at), Storm Raven's Lascannon & Multi-melta options (Why take those away? It's only reasonable chance to take down fliers are the missiles), Psychic Pilot on all transports (Fewer Warp charges, and Vehicles can't give themselves a save anymore), the usability of Psycannons on any non-relentless model.
Welcome to Codex: Dreadknight (+ a friendly Librarian with a Terminator Entourage).
1) Storm Bolters are much better than rocks and sticks.
2) You didn't "lose" them - they are their own dataslate - which still has PSYBOLT AMMO
3) What GK army wasn't already taking 3 Dreadknights?
Dont bother, the hyperbole is strong with him
I don't want to have to pay an extra $25 just to field my Inquisitors. I don't want to have to pay an extra $20 to field my Assassins. If all the units had been just left in the Grey Knight Codex, players of other factions for about $50, could have their choice of Assassins, Inquisition, and Grey Knights. Instead, if they want the Assassins and Inquisition, they still pay that much, but don't have the rules for the Grey Knights. Everyone loses.
I wasn't fielding tripple Dreadknights because I used a Purifier list with Terminators in Land Raiders taking the Flanks. Now that Psycannons have a worthless range on Power Armoured units (12" when moving), I have over 20 models I have to convert or sub as Incinerators.
This isn't just Hyperbole. Grey Knights got gimped when they weren't even a powerhouse this edition to begin with.
TheKbob wrote: It's utterly dumbfounding at this point to see indivuals shelling out $50 for a book of recycled fluff and cut nearly in half in value, even more when all the rules are leaked, and pay $8 for the tiniest pack of cards to boot. You're actively being ripped off. There's no hyperbole, no judgment, just the straight fact. Whether the army is good or bad, you're getting the equivalent to errata in any other game for $50. This is why GW hasn't folded terribly yet.
What would it take for folks to wisen up and stop paying so that we might get good releases? I can literally own all the rules for Warmahordes for $60. All the rules. For life. With free updates. You're paying $50 to lose half the army. I just cannot comprehend this and it saddens me. I hope that someday folks will find other games they like and realize their game dollars can go much farther and still have a great time with friends. And that the subk cost fallacy is just that, a fallacy before the "I've invested so much money and time in my army" argument comes up. I can point to my own in this situation and still say "no."
Yup. $50 to lose half the army and for some little changes here and there with what's left. It amazes me how so many people can be cool with this. The 'solution' which is to spend around 100 bucks to mostly get the stuff back should infuriate people. All people. But some are somehow ok with it. The immoral and unethical 'solution' of pirating the rules is starting to sound good.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Welp wouldnt be a new codex thread without Kbob calling us idiots or fools and what not for not agreeing with him.
Then plugging Warmahordes
I'm asking why are you doing something entirely illogical and happy to do so. There's no sugar coating this release. Nothing new at all. And happy to pay for it?
Warmachine is an apple to apples comparison. Infinity is free, Malifaux is $15 for the rules. I can't think of a single game I can't point to that has a much higher value.
This release should make you mad as its measurably worse in value without a discussion of the rules within. You're getting less rules and nothing new for more money. Period. What you are getting is the equivalent to errata on other games. Period. If you want to claim you're being irrational and just throwing money away then do so, but don't claim its anything else. And I, for one, don't understand it.
There's a button so you don't have to deal with that anymore.
Yep, there's a button to ignore someone, but it doesn't make facts go away. The game company is hurting AMD we have the facts to prove it. This release is a mess from any rational viewpoint of value. So yea, keep ignoring everyone that has a "negative" view. You find yourself alone soon enough in your echo chamber.
There's a button so you don't have to deal with that anymore.
Yep, there's a button to ignore someone, but it doesn't make facts go away. The game company is hurting AMD we have the facts to prove it. This release is a mess from any rational viewpoint of value. So yea, keep ignoring everyone that has a "negative" view. You find yourself alone soon enough in your echo chamber.
If things are so bad why are you still dealing with 40k.
I have not seen you like anything.
Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases
I don't want to have to pay an extra $25 just to field my Inquisitors. I don't want to have to pay an extra $20 to field my Assassins. If all the units had been just left in the Grey Knight Codex, players of other factions for about $50, could have their choice of Assassins, Inquisition, and Grey Knights. Instead, if they want the Assassins and Inquisition, they still pay that much, but don't have the rules for the Grey Knights. Everyone loses.
I wasn't fielding tripple Dreadknights because I used a Purifier list with Terminators in Land Raiders taking the Flanks. Now that Psycannons have a worthless range on Power Armoured units (12" when moving), I have over 20 models I have to convert or sub as Incinerators.
This isn't just Hyperbole. Grey Knights got gimped when they weren't even a powerhouse this edition to begin with.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I hated 6th ed, so sold my stuff and moved on. I read through 7th and felt like it was a good mix of 5th and 6th and actually like playing again.
But GW is in the business of making money - not pleasing the fans. That has been the truth since roughly 3.5 - 4th ed. Big turn of the switch there and we could debate for hours the good/bad/ugly - but it gets done to death.
Do I "enjoy" being actively gouged - no and have thus relied on less than reputable means to secure my collection which I have no problem admitting.
However, that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the game with my gaming group or trying to keep supporting my FLGS since apparently GW is not interested.
There's a button so you don't have to deal with that anymore.
Yep, there's a button to ignore someone, but it doesn't make facts go away. The game company is hurting AMD we have the facts to prove it. This release is a mess from any rational viewpoint of value. So yea, keep ignoring everyone that has a "negative" view. You find yourself alone soon enough in your echo chamber.
If things are so bad why are you still dealing with 40k.
I have not seen you like anything.
As stated, I do own a GK army. I was vocal about Wolves as I owned a large army of wolves, since now sold. I loved 40k, I wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars on it if I didn't. Now the thing I loved is being ruined with each release. The Blood Angels are the last one and last tiny hope (do I need pictures of those models for validation of an opinion too?).
With each release it gets worse and the irrational behavior to support GW, a company that has said everything but actively and openly hating their customers, reaches crticial mass. Any form of valid criticism, more so based as objective fact and not just flavor of artistic merit, is seen as "hater speech" which is nonsense.
I still love 40k. I'll love 40k after GW collapses. I'll keep playing Dawn of War and painting minis. But I'll be damned if I let them actively market a product that is counter to the rest of the entire market. When you're supposedly the biggest and best, you should be the trend setter. GW is not unless you mean in pricing and nonsense in an exercise to see what the market can bear.
In all my perceived negativity, I've always relied on fact or logical conclusions. And so far, my track record has been pretty spot on. I called most of this release despite being told contrary. Want me to like something? Then maybe you should see my reaction to to her games (generally positive). Or games workshop could release something actually worth getting excited over. The invalidating of my at for the market suggested retail price of $49.99 isn't good.
DDaley60 wrote: Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases
A point about a just realsed untested army?
So far I have seen only people going is "This unit sucks Now and this unit sucks Now, this Codex is Now.
Then you got the positive ones who are looking at the Codex going, there are possibilities here. They are looking at what they can do now, what combos they can pull off and moving on to make this a GOOD Codex. It might not be a great one, but it looks to be good like the last 4.
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.
You run in your shooting phase so interceptor and big ap2 plates will hit you first
I was vocal about Wolves as I owned a large army of wolves, since now sold.
Not to derail this thread any further - but what about the new book did you not like causing you to sell your wolves???
I think it's one of the best books they've done (except for Santa's Sleigh - that's a "jump the shark" moment for me).
I have some wolves and GK. The wolf book is definitely better (and I don't even own or plan to run thunder wolves). For example the wolf book didn't lose half its options. The GK book did. That alone is a huge completely logical reason to complain. GW wants me to pay triple the price of the old codex to get what I had before (with minor tweaks). That's just nonsense. A person can and does like 40k and can still call that nonsense.
agnosto wrote: Yay. My Tau love 1st turn deep strikers who sit out in the open for me to plasma to death after my intercepting missile-sides and riptides are through of course. /snark
But you can run, so you can just spread out from the worst of the intercep.... ohrightnevermind.
You run in your shooting phase so interceptor and big ap2 plates will hit you first
That was the joke.
Yea the formation COULD have been useful if we had bonuses on the deepstrike, like say a cover save, +1 (or pushing it +2) inv save, Units on turn they deepstrike count as relentless (which would cover for the weakness of the goddamn Psilencer and Psycannon), THATS an alpha strike what we have now is a fancy platter.
The more I read about GK, the more I think it's a solid codex. Neither too good or too bad. And by the way, the fact that you don't see some special characters in the pics doesn't mean you really have lost them,maybe they didn't post them. Unless you specifically asked for them... maybe I missed that.
TheKbob wrote: It's utterly dumbfounding at this point to see indivuals shelling out $50 for a book of recycled fluff and cut nearly in half in value, even more when all the rules are leaked, and pay $8 for the tiniest pack of cards to boot. You're actively being ripped off. There's no hyperbole, no judgment, just the straight fact. Whether the army is good or bad, you're getting the equivalent to errata in any other game for $50. This is why GW hasn't folded terribly yet.
What would it take for folks to wisen up and stop paying so that we might get good releases? I can literally own all the rules for Warmahordes for $60. All the rules. For life. With free updates. You're paying $50 to lose half the army. I just cannot comprehend this and it saddens me. I hope that someday folks will find other games they like and realize their game dollars can go much farther and still have a great time with friends. And that the subk cost fallacy is just that, a fallacy before the "I've invested so much money and time in my army" argument comes up. I can point to my own in this situation and still say "no."
Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.
Diablix wrote: The more I read about GK, the more I think it's a solid codex. Neither too good or too bad. And by the way, the fact that you don't see some special characters in the pics doesn't mean you really have lost them,maybe they didn't post them. Unless you specifically asked for them... maybe I missed that.
We are fairly certain that everything that is posted is everything we're getting.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.
Unless you only ever play Tau
Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.
Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.
The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.
Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.
That is a TERRIBLE attitude to have about people who like 40k but are annoyed at this low value release. Do you actually think it is good the new GK codex lost half its options and increased greatly in price? Is that your idea of a good deal?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.
Unless you only ever play Tau
Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.
Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.
The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.
Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.
Unless you only ever play Tau
Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.
Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.
The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.
Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?
Anti horde is fine. Anti mech isn't as hot. Though the Lib at least can field a combi-melta now!
Is +1 inv save pushing it? Seriously? Its a 50/50 chance if we get hit by a ap 2 weapon for termies then.
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike. This would be buffing the PAGK who actually need that now. Especially if our alpha strike is supposed to be shooting.
Quickjager wrote: Is +1 inv save pushing it? Seriously? Its a 50/50 chance if we get hit by a ap 2 weapon for termies then.
And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike. This would be buffing the PAGK who actually need that now. Especially if our alpha strike is supposed to be shooting.
You can fire salvo after you move, which deep striking counts as. Heavy can always snapshot if you move, albeit snapshotting is never great. Though if you're deep striking terminators, they dont really care as they're relentless. And Dreadknights can deep strike as well.
Well, have fun playing Warmahordes then.
That said, sir, will you be so kind to stop annoying us?
Thanks.
That is a TERRIBLE attitude to have about people who like 40k but are annoyed at this low value release. Do you actually think it is good the new GK codex lost half its options and increased greatly in price? Is that your idea of a good deal?
DDaley60 wrote: Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases
A point about a just realsed untested army?
So far I have seen only people going is "This unit sucks Now and this unit sucks Now, this Codex is Now.
Then you got the positive ones who are looking at the Codex going, there are possibilities here. They are looking at what they can do now, what combos they can pull off and moving on to make this a GOOD Codex. It might not be a great one, but it looks to be good like the last 4.
A point that this book doesn't have enough content to justify being $50 yet, there are positives but nothing just jumps at you like ermahgerd. Hence why at the end i said its still early, for now all we have is a $50 book thats half the size it was previously
Played a 2,000 pt game last night using the new rules vs SM. He had 2 LRC, Vindicator, Stormraven, a Drop Pod and an Iron Clad Dread.
I ran a GM, Librarian, Interceptors, Purifiers, 3 5 man terminators, 2 DK, and a TLAC dread.
Here were my takeaways:
I was able to kill his vindicator and LRC's. On turn one after shunting and shooting the vindicator with 2 heavy psycannons, it became immobilized and could only snap, it shortly died after. So the anti tank is still definitely there with the DK and the new heavy psycannon that can shoot 6 times.
I totally felt the pain of the psyfleman dread not being as potent but probably because I was so spoiled for so long.
The relic with extra spell and reroll ones for psychic powers on sanctic is crazy good and it was definitely apparent that the psychic phase was even more dominated by GK. Purifiers are now lvl 2 is pretty nice and I was generating 14+d6 dice.
DK having the 4++ option through sanctuary is just so good especially since they are just so much cheaper.
I lost the game :( to no one's fault but my own.
But all in all it was great, and I felt the book was pretty strong.
I was able to field 250-300 more points then I normally could have.
exploited751 wrote: Played a 2,000 pt game last night using the new rules vs SM. He had 2 LRC, Vindicator, Stormraven, a Drop Pod and an Iron Clad Dread.
I ran a GM, Librarian, Interceptors, Purifiers, 3 5 man terminators, 2 DK, and a TLAC dread.
Here were my takeaways:
I was able to kill his vindicator and LRC's. On turn one after shunting and shooting the vindicator with 2 heavy psycannons, it became immobilized and could only snap, it shortly died after. So the anti tank is still definitely there with the DK and the new heavy psycannon that can shoot 6 times.
I totally felt the pain of the psyfleman dread not being as potent but probably because I was so spoiled for so long.
The relic with extra spell and reroll ones for psychic powers on sanctic is crazy good and it was definitely apparent that the psychic phase was even more dominated by GK. Purifiers are now lvl 2 is pretty nice and I was generating 14+d6 dice.
DK having the 4++ option through sanctuary is just so good especially since they are just so much cheaper.
I lost the game :( to no one's fault but my own.
But all in all it was great, and I felt the book was pretty strong.
I was able to field 250-300 more points then I normally could have.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.
Unless you only ever play Tau
Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.
Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.
The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.
Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?
Not in my book
- Strikes with psycannons are now waste. They was one of the most important psycannon platforms we had. You will not be able to bring that many psycannons on termys and paladins. Strength 7 AP4 so vechiles are not that scared. It's Ap4 so shure the cheap hordes are scared, but they have numbers. You could bet on getting a rend, but banking on the luck...
- Psilancer is S4 AP- i doubt any multiwound models are scared. The important one like spawns and MC have high T, and some of them, like FMC, a decent save.
- Incernator is good against horde, avarege against rest.
I predict that the GK will do some hull points and kill som 4+ models. That's it. Then you will be hit by his total army.
Hitting hard from dep strike is several units with 2 plasma or melta (SW will also have a combi-weapon), sternguards etc. And now after SW a pod with 3 centurions with gravcannons.
I'm not saying GK is utterly bad, i just think this detachment is mediocre.
I would go libby, termies and 3 dreadknights on table. Ad in somethind hard fasthitting. Maybe double chapter masters with bikes.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well just because the formation isnt so hot against Tau, doesnt mean you automatically dismiss it against every other army.
Unless you only ever play Tau
Well tau and interceptor is just part of it. The big thing is that GK shooting isnt't that strong. You have some minor shooting, and then you are a sitting duck for a turn.
Shure what left can charge next turn, but after enemy shooting, screening and tarpetting etc you shouldnt have that many good targets.
The good alphastrike strike reserve armies usually have good shooting to take something importent out.
Isn't that what , Psycannons, Psilencers and Incinerators are for, hitting hard?
Not in my book
- Strikes with psycannons are now waste. They was one of the most important psycannon platforms we had. You will not be able to bring that many psycannons on termys and paladins. Strength 7 AP4 so vechiles are not that scared. It's Ap4 so shure the cheap hordes are scared, but they have numbers. You could bet on getting a rend, but banking on the luck...
- Psilancer is S4 AP- i doubt any multiwound models are scared. The important one like spawns and MC have high T, and some of them, like FMC, a decent save.
- Incernator is good against horde, avarege against rest.
I predict that the GK will do some hull points and kill som 4+ models. That's it. Then you will be hit by his total army.
Hitting hard from dep strike is several units with 2 plasma or melta (SW will also have a combi-weapon), sternguards etc. And now after SW a pod with 3 centurions with gravcannons.
I'm not saying GK is utterly bad, i just think this detachment is mediocre.
I would go libby, termies and 3 dreadknights on table. Ad in somethind hard fasthitting. Maybe double chapter masters with bikes.
So we are going to have change our tactics is what you are saying?
Quickjager wrote: And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.
\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?
They can, he's wrong.
No I am not I said in the pist PAGK who most CERTAINLY do not have relentless.
They can still fire 2 salvo shots at 12 inches, or snapfire heavy weapons.
Stop it with your logic! Haven't you heard man, Grey Knights are now the weakest weaksauce of weaksaucey codices in the history of GW weaky-weaksauceness!
Quickjager wrote: And how is relentless related to Tau? Salvo and heavy weapons can't fire on the turn they deepstrike.
\
Is this a new rule in 7th or something? Why can't Relentless infantry fire Salvo and Heavy weapons when Deep Striking?
They can, he's wrong.
No I am not I said in the pist PAGK who most CERTAINLY do not have relentless.
They can still fire 2 salvo shots at 12 inches, or snapfire heavy weapons.
Stop it with your logic! Haven't you heard man, Grey Knights are now the weakest weaksauce of weaksaucey codices in the history of GW weaky-weaksauceness!
Unhelpful straw man argument that at best will do nothing positive, at worst will bring down the level of discourse further.
DDaley60 wrote: Kbob does have a point. The only benefit i can see this release has to people is that you dont have to buy anything new except the codex in some cases, and im talking about GK players as i dont know why anyone would want to start this army now. Just changing most if not all models you own now... Though its still early and time will tell and we have yet to see how GW will treat other new 7th releases
Cheap, easy to paint, effective low model count army that integrates well with other imperial factions. Why not pick it up if you are looking for a good guy elite army?
I have never commented on whether the book is good or not, simply that its less rules at a higher price and leaves people with invalid armies. Other games, when releasing new content, gives you new toys that make you want to try something new but doesn't invalidate your strategies. As an example (moan if you want), with Exogence I get a new caster for my Wolds. It doesn't delete or change how Baldur runs Wolds,it just gives me a new option. I can still be competitive and enjoyy current army and require zero change in strategy. Tactics will change as you fight new casters, but strategy and tactics are two separate things; strategy is the list, tactics is on the table.
With each recent version of GW releases, it either invalidates your strategy or removes it entirely. And we all know unbound is a joke and a lazy excuse. This is the problem with the GK release. It deletes or invalidates strategies and the changes existing units to get you to buy new stuff. Other games do not fiddle with old models to get you to shelve them or buy new, this is a bad thing GW does.
And again, don't like my opinion backed by facts, then hit "ignore." Just don't be childish about it and don't complain when GW implodes by killing their game line for all but the most irrationally loyal. A book that deletes 9+ entries and costs 50% more is the definition of both price hike and loss of value. They could have easily kept those units in at $50, introduced new models, and still maintained codex inquisition and release the assassin supplmenet. You know, a business move that sells more rules to people who don't want the $50 GK book while not screwing over previous players.
But that's just stupid hater speech, right guys?/s
Unhelpful straw man argument that at best will do nothing positive, at worst will bring down the level of discourse further.
Seriously. It's objectively a bad codex. Not useless, but it's not good. There's no real way to spin this release as a positive if you're a GK player.
Yes tactics and lists will change, but there's no amount of list doctoring that will allow the best GK list to compete against a well played list from a solid codex. I still hold fast that we'll see them as really great allies, or having things allied into them but they don't stand as well on their own as the previous codex.
TheKbob wrote: I have never commented on whether the book is good or not, simply that its less rules at a higher price and leaves people with invalid armies. Other games, when releasing new content, gives you new toys that make you want to try something new but doesn't invalidate your strategies. As an example (moan if you want), with Exogence I get a new caster for my Wolds. It doesn't delete or change how Baldur runs Wolds,it just gives me a new option. I can still be competitive and enjoyy current army and require zero change in strategy. Tactics will change as you fight new casters, but strategy and tactics are two separate things; strategy is the list, tactics is on the table.
With each recent version of GW releases, it either invalidates your strategy or removes it entirely. And we all know unbound is a joke and a lazy excuse. This is the problem with the GK release. It deletes or invalidates strategies and the changes existing units to get you to buy new stuff. Other games do not fiddle with old models to get you to shelve them or buy new, this is a bad thing GW does.
And again, don't like my opinion backed by facts, then hit "ignore." Just don't be childish about it and don't complain when GW implodes by killing their game line for all but the most irrationally loyal. A book that deletes 9+ entries and costs 50% more is the definition of both price hike and loss of value. They could have easily kept those units in at $50, introduced new models, and still maintained codex inquisition and release the assassin supplmenet. You know, a business move that sells more rules to people who don't want the $50 GK book while not screwing over previous players.
But that's just stupid hater speech, right guys?/s
So what I am getting, the problems is we have to change our tactics and abandon the old ones and we cant take Inquisition Forces anymore?
Well a lot of us were running "Pure" Grey Knight Armies and like it when the "Meta" is changed up.
TheKbob wrote: I have never commented on whether the book is good or not, simply that its less rules at a higher price and leaves people with invalid armies. Other games, when releasing new content, gives you new toys that make you want to try something new but doesn't invalidate your strategies. As an example (moan if you want), with Exogence I get a new caster for my Wolds. It doesn't delete or change how Baldur runs Wolds,it just gives me a new option. I can still be competitive and enjoyy current army and require zero change in strategy. Tactics will change as you fight new casters, but strategy and tactics are two separate things; strategy is the list, tactics is on the table.
With each recent version of GW releases, it either invalidates your strategy or removes it entirely. And we all know unbound is a joke and a lazy excuse. This is the problem with the GK release. It deletes or invalidates strategies and the changes existing units to get you to buy new stuff. Other games do not fiddle with old models to get you to shelve them or buy new, this is a bad thing GW does.
And again, don't like my opinion backed by facts, then hit "ignore." Just don't be childish about it and don't complain when GW implodes by killing their game line for all but the most irrationally loyal. A book that deletes 9+ entries and costs 50% more is the definition of both price hike and loss of value. They could have easily kept those units in at $50, introduced new models, and still maintained codex inquisition and release the assassin supplmenet. You know, a business move that sells more rules to people who don't want the $50 GK book while not screwing over previous players.
But that's just stupid hater speech, right guys?/s
The big problem as I see it isn't so much that characters are disappearing and things are changing as much as there's this promotion of the 40k arms race happening with no signs of it slowing. Instead of putting out several kits of new models and rules they're making previously good stuff worse and making bigger expensive kits better to the point of being auto-takes.
I get it, GW is a model company first and a rules company second -- but I'm not sure how making it so every 40k army needs multiple NDK, Wraithknight, Imperial Knights or SW fliers is good for the hobby long term. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle here. I've been playing 40k for 18 years. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. This is the first time it really feels like the hobby is headed down a dangerous road, especially following such a solid set of rules as 7th, which I'm a huge fan of.
Unhelpful straw man argument that at best will do nothing positive, at worst will bring down the level of discourse further.
Seriously. It's objectively a bad codex. Not useless, but it's not good. There's no real way to spin this release as a positive if you're a GK player.
Yes tactics and lists will change, but there's no amount of list doctoring that will allow the best GK list to compete against a well played list from a solid codex. I still hold fast that we'll see them as really great allies, or having things allied into them but they don't stand as well on their own as the previous codex.
It's just disappointing, but these things happen.
Yup. And all the 'rebuttals' which come across more as immature taunts aren't helping.
Anyway I'm guessing the formation used as 'allies' would be the deep striking one. Not because of deep striking but because only one HQ and one troop are needed to take two DKs. Termies are better sure but the DKs and Lib are a lot better and if someone is using GK to supplement their army they won't want to spend points on GK troops if they don't have to...
Well a lot of us were running "Pure" Grey Knight Armies and like it when the "Meta" is changed up.
No true Scotsman. I played pure Grey Knights, too. My army is now invalid and requires double the cost of rules to even field. And I believe you're using the wrong words... Tactics change every game regardless of list. I believe you mean strategy. And a good release would both allow you're current strategy to work while offering new ones to grow into.
Good games have an always changing meta by design
Bad games, like 40k, has there's forcably changed by changing and/or deleting existing units. That's bad game design as invalidating someone's paid for and painted up minis is only going to breed contempt. The former strategy makes it so everyone is happy.
Stop it with your logic! Haven't you heard man, Grey Knights are now the weakest weaksauce of weaksaucey codices in the history of GW weaky-weaksauceness!
Dude, we know, you got screwed by Warp Quake because you guys don't do random matchups at your FLGS so everyone knew you played daemons going into it. That sucks and would be pretty frustrating.
Snide comments don't help though, and if anything weaken your position.
I get it, GW is a model company first and a rules company second -- but I'm not sure how making it so every 40k army needs multiple NDK, Wraithknight, Imperial Knights or SW fliers is good for the hobby long term. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle here. I've been playing 40k for 18 years. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. This is the first time it really feels like the hobby is headed down a dangerous road, especially following such a solid set of rules as 7th, which I'm a huge fan of.
That's a marketing lie. Games Workshop is a short term profit generating company and is starting to fail at that. Their models prices are the highest for quality and their rules are astronomical.
Corvus Belli is a model company. Infinity is entirely free to play. You can start today, for free, and proxy with GW minis. I encourage it as its a better kill team style game than anything GW has made that I've played. CB makes all their money off models and the few folks who will buy the rulebooks for the fluff. That's a model company.
I get it, GW is a model company first and a rules company second -- but I'm not sure how making it so every 40k army needs multiple NDK, Wraithknight, Imperial Knights or SW fliers is good for the hobby long term. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle here. I've been playing 40k for 18 years. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. This is the first time it really feels like the hobby is headed down a dangerous road, especially following such a solid set of rules as 7th, which I'm a huge fan of.
That's a marketing lie. Games Workshop is a short term profit generating company and is starting to fail at that. Their models prices are the highest for quality and their rules are astronomical.
Corvus Belli is a model company. Infinity is entirely free to play. You can start today, for free, and proxy with GW minis. I encourage it as its a better kill team style game than anything GW has made that I've played. CB makes all their money off models and the few folks who will buy the rulebooks for the fluff. That's a model company.
I'm definitely not defending the cost, it's ludicrously high to play a GW game, but it's always been that way and I daresay it's better now that when I started in 2nd ed. Paying $17.50 PER TERMINATOR sucked when everything was in blisters. That said, it used to be that a new codex came out you could head to your FLGS pick up a squad or two of the new stuff and have a lot of fun until you could add more expensive kits. Now I'm staring at my GK and one dreadknight and saying "Is it really worth buying another three of these just to play competitively with this army?"
I'm in a lucky spot. I play Eldar and DE, both of which have good codexes. The latter needs to be updated, but the former is fantastic and required very few new kits to remain good.
I'm looking to pick up another game and Infinity is on my short list. One friend is convincing me to dive into Infinity, but Malifaux is really catching my eye right now.
Yep, because points inflation means they sell more models. Glad you enjoy their marketing strategies!
Auswin, you can't go wrong with either! I sold an Eldar army because folks just didn't want to play against them. Mech Dark Eldar were totally awesome in 6E, should still be good in 7E except for open top + flamers (Dreadknights make em burn!).
But yes, this thread can be locked. There's a thread already in 40k discussions (just as rosy!) so not much else here.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I just finished figuring out my normal List for a 2,000 Point Game.
Now I no longer have to decide between my Stormraven and my Land Raider.
To me this make the Codex 100% better than the last one!
Why did you have to try to decide between the two?
Anpu42 wrote: Well I just finished figuring out my normal List for a 2,000 Point Game.
Now I no longer have to decide between my Stormraven and my Land Raider.
To me this make the Codex 100% better than the last one!
Why did you have to try to decide between the two?
Because taking both of them usually ran me to the 2250+ points
Anpu42 wrote: Well I just finished figuring out my normal List for a 2,000 Point Game.
Now I no longer have to decide between my Stormraven and my Land Raider.
To me this make the Codex 100% better than the last one!
Why did you have to try to decide between the two?
Because taking both of them usually ran me to the 2250+ points
How many dreadknights and terminators were you running that you shaved 250 off of your build?
PAGK definitely seem to have taken a hit, but I think TAGK are looking fantastic. Especially with the added threat saturation DK's provide. First turn DS a bunch of 2+ save, relentless Psycannons in the enemy's face (then, I don't know, Incinerators or Psilencers on the DK's)? Oh, and the guys carrying those weapons are not only extremely resilient to shooting, but excellent in assault to boot? Yep, sounds solid to me.
Kind of funny that GK's seem to have gone first-turn-DS-alpha-strike this edition. That used to be Daemons' bag.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I just finished figuring out my normal List for a 2,000 Point Game.
Now I no longer have to decide between my Stormraven and my Land Raider.
To me this make the Codex 100% better than the last one!
Why did you have to try to decide between the two?
Because taking both of them usually ran me to the 2250+ points
How many dreadknights and terminators were you running that you shaved 250 off of your build?
Well here is my basic list, it was built off what I wanted to play, not designed to be competitive.
HQ #1: Librarian [Psyker Level-3 Mastery, Mastercraft Nemesis Force Halberd, Melta Bombs Digital Weapons] {160}
Troop #1: Grey Knight Terminators x5 [(Justicar: Mastercraft Nemesis Force Halberd, Melta Bombs) 1x Nemesis Force Daemon-Hammer, 1xPsycannon {207}
Troop #2: Grey Knight Strike Squad x5 [(Justicar: Mastercraft Nemesis Force Sword, Melta Bombs] 1x Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer 1x] {145}
Elite #1: Grey Knight Paladin Squad x7 [Apothecary, Nemesis Banner, 1x Nemesis Force Halberd, 2x Twin Nemeses Force Falchions, 1x Nemeses Force Staff, 2x Nemesis Force Daemon-Hammers, 2x Psilencers] {474}
Elite #2: Grey Knight Purifier Squad x6 [(Justicar: Mastercraft Paired Falchions, Melta Bombs) 2x Nemesis Force Halberds, 1x Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer, 2x Incinerators (Razorback, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Dozer Blade, Storm Bolter, HK Missile) {287}
Fast Attack #1: Grey Knight Interceptor Squad [(Justicar: Nemesis Force Halberd, Melta Bombs) 2x Twin-Falchions, 1x Incinerator {160}
Fast Attack #2: Storm Raven {200}
Heavy Support #1: Nemesis Dreadknight [Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Gatling Psilencer] {210}
Heavy Support #2: Land Raider Redeemer [Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter] {255}
easysauce wrote: HAve we seen picks of what replaces grand strategy on the GM's?
From what I can see Grand Strategy is outright gone, there was no replacement and much of the stuff that it gave (i.e. counterattack) was put into Warlord Traits instead. So the GM now only has an extra attack and ML over the Brother Captain.
I do have a question about the (rumored) Nemesis Strike Force detachment. I do not see anything stating that a IC from an ally could not join the force and thus deepstrike on turn one. Maybe I am missing something, but that seems fun to try out.
Correct me if I am wrong... at work so have not had time to really look into it.
azactaylor wrote: I do have a question about the (rumored) Nemesis Strike Force detachment. I do not see anything stating that a IC from an ally could not join the force and thus deepstrike on turn one. Maybe I am missing something, but that seems fun to try out.
Correct me if I am wrong... at work so have not had time to really look into it.
IC for all rules purposes are part of that squad or something like that. so yeah a Inq in T armor can DS t1 if attached to them
Now the interesting question is if an IC in the formation would still benefit if attached to a unit not in the formation. Goes back to the whole 'is a SMIC in a Tau unit still an SM unit' argument but if so, this book may have an actual interesting use. I rather doubt most people will interpret it that way though.
The other issue that I have atm is that Inquisition still does not have an FAQ bringing their codex more up to date with the new psychic phase... What kind of consensus are we making on that?
azactaylor wrote: The other issue that I have atm is that Inquisition still does not have an FAQ bringing their codex more up to date with the new psychic phase... What kind of consensus are we making on that?
They're going to ask you to pay for an updated version in a couple of months.
Anyone else thinking that, if you're running Paladins, now would a great time to give them all nemesis falchions? With the change to hammer hand, coupled with the massive points reductions of the Apothecary, you could kit out a 10 man paladin squad with 4 psycannons, 2 hammers, the Bro Banner, Apothecary, and 7 nemesis falchions for 730 points.
Thats a RIDICULOUS amount of S6 AP3 attacks on the charge (35 if I have my math right, and thats not counting the 8 attacks from the hammer guys you'll have...)
I believe this will be my last question... after reading through the rule book under detachments, and then looking at the Nemesis strike force.
Wouldn't the troops get objective secured if chosen as your primary detachment? The way the rules read in the BRB it would seem that way. I have just noticed people saying that it would not... Thoughts?
meh, objective secured doesnt seem to matter. ive played 10 game sof 7th now and never once had an issue where one side had obsec and the other didnt and they were both fighting fot an objective.
ive run several unbound armies that werent cheesy at all, they were just collections of whatever i want. usually its fairly standard but with no HQ or something along those lines. they havent all been the most effective, but ive never felt jilted without obsec
azactaylor wrote: I believe this will be my last question... after reading through the rule book under detachments, and then looking at the Nemesis strike force.
Wouldn't the troops get objective secured if chosen as your primary detachment? The way the rules read in the BRB it would seem that way. I have just noticed people saying that it would not... Thoughts?
Yep, Wren is right.
A Detachment has Command Benefits. The CB of the CAD is Objective Secured. The GK Detachment does not list this CB.
jetstumpy wrote: Does anyone know if there is a Sustained attack (Daemonic Infestation) style rule in the new codex, or is that just a false rumor?
That would imply an element of flavor to the codex. It's quite bland. It's Jeremy Irons Breakfast Cereal bland.
Well, I may store-rule it in, just so Daemon players will play me.
Pretty sure you will not have to store rule it in... as the codex is not that great! Maybe have them play you first! The WD battle report proved that GK cannot even kill the army it was meant to kill.
jetstumpy wrote: Does anyone know if there is a Sustained attack (Daemonic Infestation) style rule in the new codex, or is that just a false rumor?
That would imply an element of flavor to the codex. It's quite bland. It's Jeremy Irons Breakfast Cereal bland.
Well, I may store-rule it in, just so Daemon players will play me.
Pretty sure you will not have to store rule it in... as the codex is not that great! Maybe have them play you first! The WD battle report proved that GK cannot even kill the army it was meant to kill.
Don't quite know what you're talking about, the Codex is looking really awesome. The White Dwarf example is a pretty poor one to use to try and say otherwise, for several reasons. First, the guy's list was pretty awful, secondly, he (the player) made some pretty horrible mistakes early on, mistakes that he (the player) admits to making.
That comes off as meaner than I intended it to, but I'll stand by my points. I'm thrilled with the codex from what I've seen so far.
Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
All of the close combat weapons have been nerfed... no psy ammo...
The only Inquisition I ran was Coteaz, and I can easily replace him with another Libby. Power armor guys went up in points? That makes a ton of since, especially with them being so over powered.
Dreadknights going down in points, well that will be great because I usually run 2-3. However, I will probably switch to Termies for the troops seeing as it is worth the 55 points to upgrade the 5 power armor dudes to terminators.
I am not saying the codex is complete crap, just that it is not as detrimental to Daemons as it once was! It will be a bottom mid tier at best... and will turn into a mostly ally army.
After reading through all of the info and points cost, my question now is this:
Even though Paladin Apothecaries are muuuuuch cheaper, is it even worth taking paladins now that normal terminators are so much cheaper? Before, the 15pt bump to add +1 WS and +1W was definitely worth it. Now, it is +22 pts for that upgrade and is looking a lot less attractive since I could just spend an additional 11 pts and get another body that can't be 1 shotted, add 2 attacks in CC, and 2 storm bolter shots.
Is there any actual valid reason as to why GK terminators got a points reduction other than "hmm, we wrecked most of the codex, lets stop GK players crying by making their Dreadknight and Termies cheaper"
I mean - point by point, a GK termie is better than a vanilla space marine termie.
They both got stormbolters; while the SM termie has a powerfist, the GK termie strikes at initiative and either with S5, or can take a hammer to emulate the same effects of a powerfist, with the added bonus of concussion
Sir Arun wrote: Is there any actual valid reason as to why GK terminators got a points reduction other than "hmm, we wrecked most of the codex, lets stop GK players crying by making their Dreadknight and Termies cheaper"
I mean - point by point, a GK termie is better than a vanilla space marine termie.
They both got stormbolters; while the SM termie has a powerfist, the GK termie strikes at initiative and either with S5, or can take a hammer to emulate the same effects of a powerfist, with the added bonus of concussion
The GK termie also has more special rules
Even with Allies and Unbound around a codex should be have some external balance (don't know if that's done well here though - never played GKs) and provides you a viable army to work on its own. C:SM has several choices that GK players would gladly take. Well, most of the other codices have choices you want for your own 'cause they're better and/or cheaper or give you something you miss in your army.
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons). Me? I liked to toss in an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in some of my lists (never used Coteaz, and never used any henchmen). Now I need a $25 eBook for that one model. And if I wanted to toss in one of my assassins? That's another $17 for one model.
Think about that: the rules that allow you to field these individual models now cost more than the models themselves.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, for the combined price of the new GK Codex, the Inquisition Codex, and the Assassins dataslate (just so you can play with the same stuff that was in the old GK Codex), you can instead buy a tablet and a pirate hat to go with it.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, for the combined price of the new GK Codex, the Inquisition Codex, and the Assassins dataslate (just so you can play with the same stuff that was in the old GK Codex), you can instead buy a tablet and a pirate hat to go with it.
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons).
Lol, so things are just peachy except for the anyone who ran anything from the inquisition and the huge number of GK-only players who ran tons of PAGK and psycannons. So things are 'just peachy' for like 10% of GK players lol.
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons).
Lol, so things are just peachy except for the anyone who ran anything from the inquisition and the huge number of GK-only players who ran tons of PAGK and psycannons. So things are 'just peachy' for like 10% of GK players lol.
PAGK didn't really change. They now pay for their Justicar/Vet sergeant, but otherwise are about the same- Purifiers gained a mastery level, Strike Squads pay less to swap out their swords, Incinerators got a lot cheaper for them and Interceptors, and Purgators pay less for psy cannons.
Psybolts hit everyone equally. And Terminators are now brought down to competitive pricing with Strike squads- in 5th and 6th, the common theme was that there is no reason to run basic terminators because Strike Squads were so much better. And why run strike squads when you could take 12 point henchmen squads with Coteaz to cover the troop slots.
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons).
Lol, so things are just peachy except for the anyone who ran anything from the inquisition and the huge number of GK-only players who ran tons of PAGK and psycannons. So things are 'just peachy' for like 10% of GK players lol.
PAGK didn't really change. They now pay for their Justicar/Vet sergeant, but otherwise are about the same-
Strike squads are more expensive base, and their main weapon, the psycannon, sucks now. Purifiers running psycannons also sucks now. Those two are what most people running PAGK fielded.
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons).
Lol, so things are just peachy except for the anyone who ran anything from the inquisition and the huge number of GK-only players who ran tons of PAGK and psycannons. So things are 'just peachy' for like 10% of GK players lol.
psycannons were not changed that much, all that was lost was the assault after, I played psy spam and its not the best list, and its just as viable(or not) as it was before despite losing assault ability after shooting.
I also have many lists that use inquisitors and henchmen, all of which I can still use, sure I had to buy an INQ dex, if your complaint is that you have to spend money I get that, its a big deal price wise to some people.
game wise however, NET options went up with the split.
I loved mordrak too, but Ill trade army wide first turn DS for his one unit and the other stuff any day.
overall this codex isnt blowing me away like Orks did, but it is a good update to current rules and opens up a lot of GK only stuff, while minimally affecting my INQ + GK builds.
heck;... the change to psyk out... forcing perils? from EVERY unit?
easysauce wrote: Over all, I think if you had codex GK before, and wanted to PLAY GK"s you got a lot more out of this dex,
if you had codex GK before, and wanted to play codex inquisition or codex coteaz + 24pts of troops and other stuff you might be a bit miffed.
personally, my GK army that always took 3 DK's is creaming its pants since now I can take 4 dk's, get 4++ on them, the heavy psycannon is awesome now! and I can DS turn one with stuff.
will be nice to take my libbys off the shelf too.
Sure, if you played Grey Knights and only Grey Knights, things are just peachy (unless you liked using the PAGK with Psycannons).
Lol, so things are just peachy except for the anyone who ran anything from the inquisition and the huge number of GK-only players who ran tons of PAGK and psycannons. So things are 'just peachy' for like 10% of GK players lol.
psycannons were not changed that much, all that was lost was the assault after, I played psy spam and its not the best list, and its just as viable(or not) as it was before despite losing assault ability after shooting.
I also have many lists that use inquisitors and henchmen, all of which I can still use, sure I had to buy an INQ dex, if your complaint is that you have to spend money I get that, its a big deal price wise to some people.
game wise however, NET options went up with the split.
I loved mordrak too, but Ill trade army wide first turn DS for his one unit and the other stuff any day.
overall this codex isnt blowing me away like Orks did, but it is a good update to current rules and opens up a lot of GK only stuff, while minimally affecting my INQ + GK builds.
heck;... the change to psyk out... forcing perils? from EVERY unit?
mmmmmm
Psycannons were changed very much. Look again at Salvo. The Stationary profile is the same, but Grey Knights can't afford to be stationary. The moving profile is the same 2 shots at S7, AP4, but only has a range of 12", AND you can't assault afterwards. So it can only be fired from assault range, but prevents the unit from assaulting. For PAGK, that makes it worthless.
Mordrak was a guaranteed turn 1 deepstrike with NO scatter. What we have now is a 66% chance on each unit coming in first turn with FULL scatter. Not a fair tradeoff. Mordrak should have been left in but given a Teleport Homer, then units using the regular CAD could deepstrike without scatter around him starting on turn 2, and a Comms Relay would make that turn 2 arrival much more reliable.
LoL. We all do, it's been posted all over the Internet.
And we got it at a fair market price, it would seem.
And splitting the codex increases prices and reduces value overall. Many of us can most likely afford the books (for the record, I already own the Codex: Inquisition and I hate it for being a bland rehash and further hate it after the stealth update that killed one of the very reasons I bought it!), but that doesn't justify the pricing or rather the value of the purchase. Paying $95 for what we got previously for $33 is ludicrous. More so when we know that rules are plentiful and cheap everywhere else all while being better maintained and better written.
No, PAGK absolutely, positively suck now for 5 reasons:
- 10 points costlier because reasons
- when they move, they can only shoot 12" with the psycannon
- halberds were the one thing that gave them a fighting chance in cc (if people rolled that way). Now that is out of the question
- no psybolt ammo, so you cant alternately have them sit and dish out S5 shots either
- cheaper terminators
only thing that got better for the PAGK is the psilencers are a tad more useful now
In the old codex, at least for PAGKs, their special weapons were priced competetively - psycannon was priced fairly, because when you moved, you suffered from reduced firepower output. Psilencers were FREE, but also same deal like psycannon with them being heavy, but you lost ALL firepower if you moved. Incinerators were best for moving and shooting, but also costly.
In the new dex, its the other way round - incinerators are dirt cheap, psilencers 10 points costlier, and psycannons 5 points costlier DESPITE the nerf. Monobuilds, woo
I could actually see a case for interceptors with incinerators now. I think i'm just going to snap all my PA psycannons and backpacks off of my PA guys and run them as interceptors now.
A grandmaster with a psycannon might be fun now too.
Other than that, yeah, the same monobuild everyone else has already described.
Anpu42 wrote: Strike Squads look to be a good choice for holding your objectives, where movement is not needed
Too expensive for holding an objective.
I'd opt for allies here, vanilla SM or AM.
Some of us don't ally with our Grey Knights.
A 5 model Strike Squad with just a Special Weapon will run you 115-125 points and probably the only Power Armored Troop Choice that is better is probably Grey Hunters.
Anpu42 wrote: Strike Squads look to be a good choice for holding your objectives, where movement is not needed
Too expensive for holding an objective.
I'd opt for allies here, vanilla SM or AM.
Some of us don't ally with our Grey Knights.
A 5 model Strike Squad with just a Special Weapon will run you 115-125 points and probably the only Power Armored Troop Choice that is better is probably Grey Hunters.
I said it already elsewhere. Strike are too specialized for simply objective holding in the backfield.
Happygrunt wrote: Crowe's job is to now make it to combat and utterly destroy things in challenges. I may have to dust off one of my favorite GK models again.
I don't really see it. He only gets to make 1 STR8 AP2 smash attack and against most models that will accept that challenge, will make him rely on a re-rollable 4++ or die immediately himself. The big boys are still gonna make him pay pretty easily.
Your opponent can always just decline and Crowe goes back to slap fighting (excluding Chaos and such that have to accept).
I'll definitely playtest him, but I'm expecting just as much out of him in this edition as the last.
I think Interceptors might be good now. 145 pts for a 5-man unit with an Incinerator and a Hammer, coupled with the 30" shunt move, could do a lot of damage or even just be a good distraction unit.
Happygrunt wrote: Crowe's job is to now make it to combat and utterly destroy things in challenges. I may have to dust off one of my favorite GK models again.
I don't really see it. He only gets to make 1 STR8 AP2 smash attack and against most models that will accept that challenge, will make him rely on a re-rollable 4++ or die immediately himself. The big boys are still gonna make him pay pretty easily.
Your opponent can always just decline and Crowe goes back to slap fighting (excluding Chaos and such that have to accept).
I'll definitely playtest him, but I'm expecting just as much out of him in this edition as the last.
With Smash, you don't have to substitute your attacks into a single Sx2 attack, you can just use your regular number of attacks with AP2 on your normal Strength value.
Redemption wrote: With Smash, you don't have to substitute your attacks into a single Sx2 attack, you can just use your regular number of attacks with AP2 on your normal Strength value.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I think Interceptors might be good now. 145 pts for a 5-man unit with an Incinerator and a Hammer, coupled with the 30" shunt move, could do a lot of damage or even just be a good distraction unit.
Indeed, I'd take two such units in one detachment.
Coupled with two DK's with teleporters and heavy incinerator they could provide an alpha strike.
Redemption wrote: With Smash, you don't have to substitute your attacks into a single Sx2 attack, you can just use your regular number of attacks with AP2 on your normal Strength value.
... I do not know how I missed that. Touche. That helps a bit then, especially with the high WS. It seems a little too easy for an opponent to just decline challenges still, though.
Redemption wrote:With Smash, you don't have to substitute your attacks into a single Sx2 attack, you can just use your regular number of attacks with AP2 on your normal Strength value.
Anpu42 wrote:
Redemption wrote: With Smash, you don't have to substitute your attacks into a single Sx2 attack, you can just use your regular number of attacks with AP2 on your normal Strength value.
Mixed with Hamerhand
Forgive me if mistaken but wasn't one of the BC "poses" that you made attacks at Str6? And Crowe can do both that pose and the reroll saves simultaneously. Between that and hammerhand you are making 2Str 8 AP2 attacks already without having to Smash.
Deadshot wrote: Forgive me if mistaken but wasn't one of the BC "poses" that you made attacks at Str6? And Crowe can do both that pose and the reroll saves simultaneously. Between that and hammerhand you are making 2Str 8 AP2 attacks already without having to Smash.
No, the new stances rules only works in challenges. Regular Brotherhood Champions have to choose between gaining Smash or re-rolling failed saves, and Crowe always has both.
You do get a ton of shots though, but the chance to kill heavy monsters easily is very small... So it'll still be a very niche orientated list that features a lot of them
What do people think of the techmarine armed with Conversion beamer?
His base points cost seems a little high compared to those in other books as he pays upfront for a servo harness and they seem to charge around 20pts for his psykic powers even though they aren't much use to him and he doesn't have a force weapon.
On the plus side a conversion beamer provides good long range anti armour power with S:10, AP:1, he has bolster defence as well as a 2+ save so isn't easy to remove if positioned in a back corner.
I quite like him in an Imperial bunker manning a comms relay to guide in your strike force.
Conversion beam is too hit or miss, as above. Trechmarines were awesome last edition as grenade caddies and once per turn orbital bombardment caddies. Now.. they're just overcosted ML1 warp charge dice makers.
Shandara wrote: The problem with a conversion beamer is you really want Hammer & Anvil deployment and even then you won't get that S10 AP1 range very often.
I am thinking getting a bastion with comm relay for the conversion beamer techmarıne, thats how he can be safe and can be usefull for reserver rolls.
Now that it is released, can we close this thread?
I recall the SW thread was closed once the actual book was released and the teeth mashing/tearing of clothes can now be focused on the Necrons, who apparently are next but no one cares about as that thread is already on the 2nd page...
Now that it is released, can we close this thread?
I recall the SW thread was closed once the actual book was released and the teeth mashing/tearing of clothes can now be focused on the Necrons, who apparently are next but no one cares about as that thread is already on the 2nd page...
raoiley wrote: can someone explain Champions and Crowe?
What are the stances and stats?
Without citing the specific rules?
They are challenge-monsters that have to pick between an insane offensive or defensive ability.
Crowe, being awesome, can have both.
Crowe makes me run away with Mephiston, so that should say enough.
raoiley wrote: can someone explain Champions and Crowe?
What are the stances and stats?
When the Brotherhood Champion is in a challenge, he picks one of the stances.
The First one gives him "Smash" which means he is AP2, and can choose to not make a Smash attack to get 2 attacks at base Strength, or use the Smash attack to get a single attack at double strength.
The second one lets the Brotherhood Champion make is 2 attacks at base strength and AP, but he can reroll all failed saves (Armour and Invulnerable).
Castellan Crowe uses both stances in a challenge, meaning that in a challenge, he always re-rolls saves, is always AP2, and can make 2 attacks at base Strength (+2 with Hammerhand), or make 1 attack with double strength (Str 10 with Hammerand).
However, Crowe's sword has no AP, which means even Guardsmen get saves against him outside of challenges.
Now that it is released, can we close this thread?
I recall the SW thread was closed once the actual book was released and the teeth mashing/tearing of clothes can now be focused on the Necrons, who apparently are next but no one cares about as that thread is already on the 2nd page...
Surely just not coming into thread will achieve same result?
Just taking the "discussion" to the 40k Discussion thread would be great, instead of perpetuating a "news and rumors" thread - which none of the last 4 pages has been.
ForeverARookie wrote: Castellan Crowe uses both stances in a challenge, meaning that in a challenge, he always re-rolls saves, is always AP2, and can make 2 attacks at base Strength (+2 with Hammerhand), or make 1 attack with double strength (Str 10 with Hammerand).
However, Crowe's sword has no AP, which means even Guardsmen get saves against him outside of challenges.
Don't forget the additional attack from charging
It's really weird that his own weapon is so.. crap
But you'd probably field him with a unit of anything else and they all have power weapons.
ForeverARookie wrote: Castellan Crowe uses both stances in a challenge, meaning that in a challenge, he always re-rolls saves, is always AP2, and can make 2 attacks at base Strength (+2 with Hammerhand), or make 1 attack with double strength (Str 10 with Hammerand).
However, Crowe's sword has no AP, which means even Guardsmen get saves against him outside of challenges.
Don't forget the additional attack from charging
It's really weird that his own weapon is so.. crap
But you'd probably field him with a unit of anything else and they all have power weapons.
At least Crowe's an IC now and his sword doesn't buff the enemy anymore (I guess Crowe finally taught it who's boss).
ForeverARookie wrote: Castellan Crowe uses both stances in a challenge, meaning that in a challenge, he always re-rolls saves, is always AP2, and can make 2 attacks at base Strength (+2 with Hammerhand), or make 1 attack with double strength (Str 10 with Hammerand).
However, Crowe's sword has no AP, which means even Guardsmen get saves against him outside of challenges.
Don't forget the additional attack from charging
It's really weird that his own weapon is so.. crap
But you'd probably field him with a unit of anything else and they all have power weapons.
At least Crowe's an IC now and his sword doesn't buff the enemy anymore (I guess Crowe finally taught it who's boss).
I was thinking him in a unit of purifiers would be good. As a bonus, it is fluffy.
Does anyone else think it is strange that the Purifier special character DOES NOT have the soul blaze thing?
ForeverARookie wrote: Castellan Crowe uses both stances in a challenge, meaning that in a challenge, he always re-rolls saves, is always AP2, and can make 2 attacks at base Strength (+2 with Hammerhand), or make 1 attack with double strength (Str 10 with Hammerand).
However, Crowe's sword has no AP, which means even Guardsmen get saves against him outside of challenges.
Don't forget the additional attack from charging
It's really weird that his own weapon is so.. crap
But you'd probably field him with a unit of anything else and they all have power weapons.
At least Crowe's an IC now and his sword doesn't buff the enemy anymore (I guess Crowe finally taught it who's boss).
I was thinking him in a unit of purifiers would be good. As a bonus, it is fluffy.
Does anyone else think it is strange that the Purifier special character DOES NOT have the soul blaze thing?
The Blade of Antwyr is a Daemon Sword of unimaginable maleficence. When the Grey Knights finally captured it they deemed it would corrupt even their souls if around it for too long, and that only the souls of the Purifiers would be able to withstand it, and only Crowe, purest of them all, head of the Order, was capable of wielding it in battle (why they'd want to I don't know) without corruption.
Being ultra pure Crowe does not draw upon the Blade's power and uses his psychic powers to suppress its influence, meaning its essentially just a sword, which can be blocked by even flak armour or the iron gubbinz orks wear.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So by extension, being an Daemonsword, Crowe can't channel his purity through it as he's too busy fighting against it and its a Daemon Weapon by nature. Unlike the other Purifiers who are able to channel through their blades of iron and silver.
Ahhh my rulebook is at home. I didn't realize that. Crowe got way better.
I like this book a I'm still bitching about psybolt and salvo cannons hurts but most stuff I want to do got way better. Librarians are insane. Draigo is insane. So much good
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm loving this book. artwork is great, looks like a lot of copy and paste fluff but it also looks like a lot of new stuff. i just glanced at it on my lunch hour. im excited to read the 2 page crowe write up.
my grudges...
lost psybolt... salvo psycannons sucks for PAGK.
but for gains....
dreadknights are awesome
draigo is awesome
crowe is awesome
librarians are awesome
terminators are cheaper and awesome
paladins have cheaper apothecarys so theyre still great
purifiers are ML2, so awesome
storm ravens are cheaper i believe? lost mindstrike but the new missles make them way better tank hunters. and considering everyone has mindstrike equivalent grenades, who cares?
purgation seems ok, if you can deploy in a smart spot then theyre about the same as they used to be. i never bothered with astal aim anyways. night vision could be rad.
purifiers seem super solid.
all in all, the characters in this book are great. im thinking about some fun combos on a grand master with some of those relics too.
i dont know what im going to do with my three new dreadnoughts. and im tempted to buy a few knights, ive been wanting to do some cool poses for a while but i think ive got several lists already thought out that i already have all the models.
while i DO wish we got a few new models, im also a big dark eldar player. theyre my number 1, so im glad this release is cheap. my two favourite armies getting releases this quick?
i seriously cant believe people are upset about this. this last year has been the best year ive ever been a GW fan. get past the crazy prices and youve got the best models, best fluff, the biggest community and now the most intense release schedule. i give huge kudos to them getting the stuff out.
im also quite happy to see inquisitiors and assassins gone. assassins should be more accessible to other armies.
and if youre running a whiny henchmen army calling it grey knights, then you werent playing grey knights in the first place. use the supplement, problem solved. LONG LIVE TITAN
Elmir wrote: They do.... But they are still only S4 AP-.
You do get a ton of shots though, but the chance to kill heavy monsters easily is very small... So it'll still be a very niche orientated list that features a lot of them
The game needs more counters to Ogryns and Tyranid Warriors!
psilencers will be interesting. its a small chance but with so many shots, all you need is one to go through.
the one brotherhood formation lets all psyker powers go through on a 3 instead of a 4. thats awesome. i love how they basically sketched out a balanced army and gave you some big perks for taking it. on the other hand, i dont like the army that you have to take to get the rule so ill likely never do it.
still a great idea though.
Elmir wrote: They do.... But they are still only S4 AP-.
You do get a ton of shots though, but the chance to kill heavy monsters easily is very small... So it'll still be a very niche orientated list that features a lot of them
The game needs more counters to Ogryns and Tyranid Warriors!
Theres more than just those multi wound low toughness models.
For those who will still run GKSS and Purifiers, will you be replacing their Psycannons with Incinerators now? I'm thinking that DK, TAGK, and even Purgation squads are a better place to put them now than squads that are supposed to be mobile.
On the GKSS I am. I'll probably leave the psycannons on the purifiers, simply because I use the 3rd ed PAGK for my purifiers. I am going to run the SS as interceptors though.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: For those who will still run GKSS and Purifiers, will you be replacing their Psycannons with Incinerators now? I'm thinking that DK, TAGK, and even Purgation squads are a better place to put them now than squads that are supposed to be mobile.
Ill keep a few as Psycannons, but yea Incinerators all around
One thing that doesn't appear to have been mentioned is that if you activate force on Psilencers all their shots ignore feel no pain as they cause INSTANT DEATH!
FNP is getting alot more common with Ork Painboys, BA , DE, Nid Psykic and Biomancy powers, various other marine options and Nurgle followers.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: For those who will still run GKSS and Purifiers, will you be replacing their Psycannons with Incinerators now? I'm thinking that DK, TAGK, and even Purgation squads are a better place to put them now than squads that are supposed to be mobile.
I have a Purifier squad. Only just painted, never fielded but built in November. Had it already armed with a Incinerator
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WisdomLS wrote: One thing that doesn't appear to have been mentioned is that if you activate force on Psilencers all their shots ignore feel no pain as they cause INSTANT DEATH!
FNP is getting alot more common with Ork Painboys, BA , DE, Nid Psykic and Biomancy powers, various other marine options and Nurgle followers.
Actually, you make a very valid point. Might be worth reconsidering.
They might actually be of use vs things like FNPMANz and Paladins. Large amount of shots+FNP makes it a good idea.
I could actually see a Purgation Squad with 4x Psilincers being a pretty solid counter to T4 2+ save with FNP.
Against Paladins they average around 18 hits, 9 wounds and 1.5 failed saves. With force active that's 2 dead Paladins straight up, or about 110 pts gone, not including upgrades.
Vs Nid Warriors, a unit that gets bullied viciously by ID and Force; averaging 4.5 (round to 5) unsaved wounds. Assuming force is passed that is 5 dead Warriors or 150pts+upgrades gone in 1 shot for roughly a 150pt unit.
It definitely seems like they pulled off the whole 'GK are supposed to be a small elite army feel', with only 4 Troops available and only two choices within that across the board, especially topped off with the nerfs to Purifiers and Strikes. Still not sure we will see Termies making a comeback though in tournament lists, so overall this does make me think the power level dropped a bit.
Four troops are only if you take their Detachment, you could still take a CAD if you want.
But then you'd miss out on the first turn DS and the 4 elites.
I've read some reports on the new GK's and they seem to be ass-whooping.
Tabling Riptide/broadside-spam without any issue on T3 so I'm not sure what their real weakness will be.
Elmir wrote: They do.... But they are still only S4 AP-.
You do get a ton of shots though, but the chance to kill heavy monsters easily is very small... So it'll still be a very niche orientated list that features a lot of them
The game needs more counters to Ogryns and Tyranid Warriors!
Theres more than just those multi wound low toughness models.
I heard about a GK formation but it seems to be the one leaked page I can't find. It requires several HQs, but makes all Psychic rolls for casting Sanctic powers pass on a 3+ in addition to the 1st turn DS, but the whole formation is around 1900 points.
Is all of this correct?
Cleansing Flames and Sanctuaries passing on a 3+ would seriously boost the power of the units, but the choice is limited to what gear you put on the units, not the unit selection.
ForeverARookie wrote: I heard about a GK formation but it seems to be the one leaked page I can't find. It requires several HQs, but makes all Psychic rolls for casting Sanctic powers pass on a 3+ in addition to the 1st turn DS, but the whole formation is around 1900 points.
Is all of this correct?
Cleansing Flames and Sanctuaries passing on a 3+ would seriously boost the power of the units, but the choice is limited to what gear you put on the units, not the unit selection.
Yea its the Brotherhood formation, its in the codex
ForeverARookie wrote: I heard about a GK formation but it seems to be the one leaked page I can't find. It requires several HQs, but makes all Psychic rolls for casting Sanctic powers pass on a 3+ in addition to the 1st turn DS, but the whole formation is around 1900 points.
Is all of this correct?
Cleansing Flames and Sanctuaries passing on a 3+ would seriously boost the power of the units, but the choice is limited to what gear you put on the units, not the unit selection.
Five posts above:
Around 1900 points, same bonuses as their Detachment but a bigger chance to succeed in manifesting Warp Charges.
twinner wrote: Is there a way to DS purifiers or puragation?
Allied Space Wolves and a FA Drop Pod
So with 7th edition. I can ally with SW, take a FA drop pod, and then take 2 min units of grey hunters and stick 2 more unit of 5 purifiers in the pods with them. So now I have 3 deep-striking purifiers squads?
twinner wrote: Is there a way to DS purifiers or puragation?
Allied Space Wolves and a FA Drop Pod
So with 7th edition. I can ally with SW, take a FA drop pod, and then take 2 min units of grey hunters and stick 2 more unit of 5 purifiers in the pods with them. So now I have 3 deep-striking purifiers squads?
Actually you can only put Units in their Dedicated Drop Pods.
Only the FA one can you put BB Allied units in.
twinner wrote: Is there a way to DS purifiers or puragation?
Allied Space Wolves and a FA Drop Pod
So with 7th edition. I can ally with SW, take a FA drop pod, and then take 2 min units of grey hunters and stick 2 more unit of 5 purifiers in the pods with them. So now I have 3 deep-striking purifiers squads?
Actually you can only put Units in their Dedicated Drop Pods.
Only the FA one can you put BB Allied units in.
Are you sure about that? This is the first I am hearing of this.
twinner wrote: Is there a way to DS purifiers or puragation?
Allied Space Wolves and a FA Drop Pod
So with 7th edition. I can ally with SW, take a FA drop pod, and then take 2 min units of grey hunters and stick 2 more unit of 5 purifiers in the pods with them. So now I have 3 deep-striking purifiers squads?
Actually you can only put Units in their Dedicated Drop Pods.
Only the FA one can you put BB Allied units in.
Are you sure about that? This is the first I am hearing of this.
Well Battle Brothers can now use Allied Transports. [BRBpg 557]
Only Unit that the Dedicated Transport was taken may start the game embarked + any attached ICs [BRBpg 504]
Space Wolves can take a Drop Pod [or Rhino or Razorback] as a Fast Attack Choice
I keep trying to find a justification to give a unit, any unit, Nemesis Falchions because I love the look of them but I just can't do it. An extra attack is just not worth 4 pts especially when the +1S Halberd is only 2 pts, to say nothing of how Hammerhand now makes taking even just the swords viable.
daedalus wrote: On the GKSS I am. I'll probably leave the psycannons on the purifiers, simply because I use the 3rd ed PAGK for my purifiers. I am going to run the SS as interceptors though.
Replacing the back packs?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well Battle Brothers can now use Allied Transports. [BRBpg 557]
Only Unit that the Dedicated Transport was taken may start the game embarked + any attached ICs [BRBpg 504]
Space Wolves can take a Drop Pod [or Rhino or Razorback] as a Fast Attack Choice
This is a viable option.
I'd mount Purifiers with incinerators in a Pod.
This may already have been scooped (as Codex: Orks does the same thing with Truks) but...
In Codex: Grey Knights, does anyone else think you can now buy Rhinos and Razorbacks on their own as Fast Attack choices, without them being Dedicated Transports?
We can argue why you would _want_ to, but this seems a bit of a change.
Or am I missing something obvious?
Edit: Just read the posts above about the Space Wolf Drop Pod
daedalus wrote: On the GKSS I am. I'll probably leave the psycannons on the purifiers, simply because I use the 3rd ed PAGK for my purifiers. I am going to run the SS as interceptors though.
Replacing the back packs?
Oh, yeah. Totally. They're not magnetized currently, but I might do that too while I have them pulled apart, just on the off chance that GW fixes psycannons in a faq or something.
daedalus wrote: On the GKSS I am. I'll probably leave the psycannons on the purifiers, simply because I use the 3rd ed PAGK for my purifiers. I am going to run the SS as interceptors though.
Replacing the back packs?
Oh, yeah. Totally. They're not magnetized currently, but I might do that too while I have them pulled apart, just on the off chance that GW fixes psycannons in a faq or something.
To fix them they need to perceive that Psycannons are broken, so that is not going to happen.
daedalus wrote: I'm just really bummed that they didn't go back to 36". I could deal with salvo then. It'd be like the good old days.
Yeh, just that one change would make everyone would want to take Grey Knight Allies. PAGK would be able to move and shoot at 18", while Terminators could do the same at 36". It wouldn't be overpowered because we don't have access to the heavy weapons everyone else gets on their infantry (Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, Multi-meltas, etc). It would just make Grey Knights more than a 1 trick pony.
Hmmmm, interesting tidbit I noticed here. It would seem your HQ is allowed to take a personal teleporter for a mere 10 points.
although risky, a Grand master with a PT could theoretically jump out of his unit to jump over bubblewrap units to get to the squishier units behind it? Or hell, maybe even tackle monsterous creatures singlehandedly that way? Or am I missing something here that wouldn't allow it?
But every new Codex has nerfed the Psycannon, so the next one after this will probably turn it into just 12" Heavy 2, making it worthless on everything.
Daemonhunters got 3 shots at 36" that ignored Invulnerable Saves
5th Grey Knights had a 24" range with Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending.
7th Grey Knights get 12" range 2 shots that prevent charging, or 24" range 4 shots they only get if they're stationary or relentless, and still prevents charging (EDIT: for PAGK).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elmir wrote: Hmmmm, interesting tidbit I noticed here. It would seem your HQ is allowed to take a personal teleporter for a mere 10 points.
although risky, a Grand master with a PT could theoretically jump out of his unit to jump over bubblewrap units to get to the squishier units behind it? Or hell, maybe even tackle monsterous creatures singlehandedly that way? Or am I missing something here that wouldn't allow it?
Teleport Homer, not Personal Teleporter. The first reduces scatter of DS close to him, the second is a essentially a jump pack.
twinner wrote: Is there a way to DS purifiers or puragation?
Allied Space Wolves and a FA Drop Pod
So with 7th edition. I can ally with SW, take a FA drop pod, and then take 2 min units of grey hunters and stick 2 more unit of 5 purifiers in the pods with them. So now I have 3 deep-striking purifiers squads?
Actually you can only put Units in their Dedicated Drop Pods.
Only the FA one can you put BB Allied units in.
Are you sure about that? This is the first I am hearing of this.
Well Battle Brothers can now use Allied Transports. [BRBpg 557]
Only Unit that the Dedicated Transport was taken may start the game embarked + any attached ICs [BRBpg 504]
Space Wolves can take a Drop Pod [or Rhino or Razorback] as a Fast Attack Choice
Ah ok. So ICs from another cad or allied force or other formation can hitch a ride on dedicated transports. But a unit from that other force has to use the fast attack drop pod. Got it.
Hmmmm, interesting tidbit I noticed here. It would seem your HQ is allowed to take a personal teleporter for a mere 10 points.
Would be nice if they could but I think you may have gotten confused with teleport homer.
Yes, it would seem so... Shame! Oh well... *tries to make this codex work some more*
I did manage to get a list together with 2 nemesis teleport detachments with 1 Librarian, 1 HQ, 2 termie squads, 4 dreadknights and a stormraven with locator beacon for quick relocations.
ForeverARookie wrote: But every new Codex has nerfed the Psycannon, so the next one after this will probably turn it into just 12" Heavy 2, making it worthless on everything.
Daemonhunters got 3 shots at 36" that ignored Invulnerable Saves
5th Grey Knights had a 24" range with Assault 2 or Heavy 4, Rending.
7th Grey Knights get 12" range 2 shots that prevent charging, or 24" range 4 shots they only get if they're stationary or relentless, and still prevents charging.
Teleport Homer, not Personal Teleporter. The first reduces scatter of DS close to him, the second is a essentially a jump pack.
Yo, can relentless units still charge after shooting the psycannon? Relentless can still charge after firing salvo, right? Or can you just not take these on terminators...
I really don't think the change to salvo for psycannons is that big for PAGKs. They are great at forming a static fire base on an objective. Most tactics using fast, manouverable units require a static unit to draw in the enemy and strike squads do that well. If you want to move you can still shoot 12" and if you want to charge you get S7 attacks with halberds and hammer hand so psycannon shots won't be missed too much. From the comments of most people here you would think they had become heavy 1 S3 and cost 50pts each.
monkeypuzzle wrote: I really don't think the change to salvo for psycannons is that big for PAGKs. They are great at forming a static fire base on an objective. Most tactics using fast, manouverable units require a static unit to draw in the enemy and strike squads do that well. If you want to move you can still shoot 12" and if you want to charge you get S7 attacks with halberds and hammer hand so psycannon shots won't be missed too much. From the comments of most people here you would think they had become heavy 1 S3 and cost 50pts each.
The cost of Psycannons went up 50% for PAGK. The mobile range dropped 50%, and they can no longer assault after firing with it. It is now the worst deal in the Grey Knight book. The worst part is that it would have been fine, and even praised if they gave it a 36" range. The mobile range would have been 18", shorter than before, but still long enough to be useful. And the 36" range would be sufficient reason to consider having stationary units. As it is though, a stationary PAGK unit will be obliterated with the ranged weapons of literally every other faction, because Psycannons only reach out to 24", while the other factions have infantry portable weapons that reach out to 36" or 48". All we have is the Conversion Beamer, and being a blast with scatter makes it too unreliable to depend on.
So the PAGK Psycannon might as well have the ridiculous profile you mentioned, as both are worthless in 7th edition competitive play.
The cost of Psycannons went up 50% for PAGK. The mobile range dropped 50%, and they can no longer assault after firing with it. It is now the worst deal in the Grey Knight book. The worst part is that it would have been fine, and even praised if they gave it a 36" range. The mobile range would have been 18", shorter than before, but still long enough to be useful. And the 36" range would be sufficient reason to consider having stationary units. As it is though, a stationary PAGK unit will be obliterated with the ranged weapons of literally every other faction, because Psycannons only reach out to 24", while the other factions have infantry portable weapons that reach out to 36" or 48". All we have is the Conversion Beamer, and being a blast with scatter makes it too unreliable to depend on.
So the PAGK Psycannon might as well have the ridiculous profile you mentioned, as both are worthless in 7th edition competitive play.
Not to mention a greater than 24" range would make purgation squads actually a viable unit choice to mix in with DKs. Right now there is literally zero reason to ever take a purgation squad.
You are right, it's extremely poorly thought out. In fact, With only purgation squads in there, NDK and landraiders, there's no real choice but NDK... Especially if you can get LRs as dedicated transports now in the troop section for the only viable troop choice left as well....
Oh well, the parts that actually are good make it a workable codex... It'll just be ridiculously mono build-like. Very bland.
Apparently Assassins is out, and the Culexus is a dedicated murderer of all Psykers. So we lose half our units, and one of them is retrofitted to murder us. Brilliant.
That really isn't a retrofit... He's always been pushed into that battlefield role. He just got a whole lot more effective at it, that's all!
I'm sort of happy that they do have an anti-invisibilty/other psychic buff model now though. Something that just directly counters psychic deathstars (seercounsil, screamerstar). I think people who invested a lot in those types of units will be somewhat annoyed.
For GKs, facing one of these assassins will suck as well. But given the alpha strike nature of heavy deepstriking models with lots of stormbolter shots, I don't think he'll be on the board that long.
On the other hand, what does annoy me somewhat, is the internal balance again in this dataslate. When reading the rules, this is how it wen for met:
Vindicare: pretty decent, nothing too insane
Calidus: meh
Eversor: Cool, has it's uses...
Culexus: WTF!!!
And this is sort of indicative of a lot of the releases made so far. some insane stuff tossed in a sea of meh... I hope that will get somewhat better, or the cherry picking from different imperial codexes is going to get out of hand :s
Now.
