That Michone may see me walking away from this one... It may be dead to me..
I was gonna make one out of my WGF survivors and stopped when I heard about this... Now I'm not so sure I couldn't just do a better job myself. Beyond the chunk legs the katana is unreasonably broad and her pose is boring. For a model I was really excited to be getting....not ecstatic about Michone.
I would be inclined to drop out and come back around 48 hour notice but the money the early bird saves almost covers the estimated shipping. Guess I'll squat on it but...losing my interest.
GrimDork wrote: That Michone may see me walking away from this one... It may be dead to me..
I was gonna make one out of my WGF survivors and stopped when I heard about this... Now I'm not so sure I couldn't just do a better job myself. Beyond the chunk legs the katana is unreasonably broad and her pose is boring. For a model I was really excited to be getting....not ecstatic about Michone.
I would be inclined to drop out and come back around 48 hour notice but the money the early bird saves almost covers the estimated shipping. Guess I'll squat on it but...losing my interest.
What's bizarre is that there's something a little off of some of the preview miniatures. Daryl looks fine, but Rick's head is slightly off. Glenn looks like a boy than a young adult Asian. Could just be the paint job. Michonne looks like a mechanic. Dale is... black?
Also, USPS has increased shipping rates twice in the last year. CMON doubled its shipping costs from its estimated costs. IIRC, FFP charged a fair amount of money for shipping for Wave 1.5. Not a good time for small companies to ship product.
Gee. Who's looking forward to painting Scavenger 1 and Scavenger 4? I'm *really* hoping Scavenger 2 makes it into the campaign. Scavenger 3 doesn't do it for me but I hear he's really popular among new gamers.
I was a random Savior in issue 107 so if they ever get that desperate for characters I might get a chance to appear in miniature form. Walking Dead wikia hasn't been kind enough to designate me a number though.
That Michone may see me walking away from this one... It may be dead to me..
I was gonna make one out of my WGF survivors and stopped when I heard about this... Now I'm not so sure I couldn't just do a better job myself. Beyond the chunk legs the katana is unreasonably broad and her pose is boring. For a model I was really excited to be getting....not ecstatic about Michone.
I would be inclined to drop out and come back around 48 hour notice but the money the early bird saves almost covers the estimated shipping. Guess I'll squat on it but...losing my interest.
I think it's because they're sculpting due to the limitations of the PVC material. Thicker legs to stop bendy ankles, making the Katana any thinner would cause some major erectile dysfunction in that pose, etc etc. Sculpting to the medium is a good thing, but it creates a specific style that may not to be to some tastes, and can suffer when you put it next to models cast in a superior material like metal or resin.
The complete boxed game is funded. The starting contents on here is what we are pitching to our retailers also. There are no stretch goals for the boxed game at all, it was totally complete to start with. What you are getting now are game boosters, like the A-wings and tie interceptor packs you'd find in the X-wing game.
'still don't know that putting out a gameplay and the rules are the 101 basic...' - er, we are putting BOTH of those things out.
@ Angelripper - The retail version of Dungeon Saga ended up with less heroes in to compensate for the furniture going in.
The plastic scenery will not be in the retail version, it is a booster pack that you can purchase at retail. The card scenery is included in the boxed game, just like X-wing.
Yes, the Zombicide models had some distinctly odd poses as a result of being one-piece. They were actually able to go quite thin on limbs (although swords always had to be quite chunky) due to the rigidity of the material, but in my opinion the fine detail suffered quite heavily from the plastic used. More importantly, they are 35mm+ scale, rather than 30mm for WD.
So it looks like Mantic is going quite heavily on the X-Wing model for how to package & sell this game. It's interesting, because the key aspect of X-Wing is that people are willing to pay a lot of money to have pretty pre-painted models that are display pieces in themselves.
Are people willing to pay the cost of a painted TIE Fighter + cards from X-Wing for 3 unpainted Walking Dead models + cards?
My only experience of the Walking Dead are the Telltale games. I'd buy those characters in a heartbeat, so that indeed might be the magic of licensing.
$189,282 opening day their second best opening day only DBX is ahead at $251,616 although most of their KS open to similar numbers however opening day is never the issue for Mantic it's the mid point run.
It seems pretty good to me for this KS to raise almost 200k first day.
I personally don't see the value but It would seem think KS will be sent out faster and with less issues than usual for a Mantic KS, since everything seems pretty far along (they'd have needed confirmation from the licensor) and it's a very simple KS layout without a lot of fiddly addons.
I would assume that the people backing it this early is more likely to be existing tableop gamers rather than the "new-blood" fans of the comics and Tv series that Mantic hopes to get on board. So it could see a slow but steady rise if this manage to draw a decent crowd of non-regular backers and somewhat avoid the usual mid-campain slump.
Final approval is pending but I assume they must have had some communication during the design process.
Official approval won't be given until actual samples of the final product can be shown but they have far enough gone renders to be able to produce painted models. (even though the manufacturing process is probably different for the paint samples)
DBX was an odd one, looked like it was going to explode on the first day, and just deflated afterwards, largely a result of Frenzy level ($375) EB backers on day 1 dropping down when the KS and stretch goals didn't deliver the content that was expected.
TWD shouldn't fall into the same trap, $125 is an easier sell, and they should be able to keep up a very slow burn in terms of the mini count increasing up to around 100 at the $1m mark.
You just know they're going to do something like +12 walkers soon, that's a very easy one to go ahead with. They always do the least interesting or generous stretch goals in the first few days, saving the better ones for when things are going more slowly.
Best just to grab an EB at the start, then wait and see if it is worth it at the end.
I said it'd be $1m, and still think that's possible, although personally I'd have preferred it to be the TV licence, with the character sculpts looking like the actors rather than the comic books.
Hopefully they do a $10 level for .pdf rules, I think some people would go for that with minis they already have, or alternate minis. It might not sell the minis, but it would still help create a playerbase for the game, which is probably more important as far as selling minis goes.
Will be interesting to see what happens with terrain, they're going to have to do something very impressive to beat the renedra terrain for modern american buildings, and the Mars Attacks stuff I have already is also solid.
Yeah the DBX screwup was having early birds for both the $150 pledge and the $375 pledge, so loads of people pledged for both, intending to drop one or the other at the end. Massively inflated the early numbers and caused havok later on. It's something Mantic haven't done since for very good reason.
scarletsquig wrote: I said it'd be $1m, and still think that's possible, although personally I'd have preferred it to be the TV licence, with the character sculpts looking like the actors rather than the comic books.
I'm glad it's not, it's a pain in the arse to paint a model that actually looks like a real human being. Painting a comic book character means I don't have the massive let down when I compare my hideous painting to the face of an actual person
Mantic on the KS comments wrote:You fight around buildings. Nothing stopping you inventing rules for fighting in buildings, but I don't think we're going to do that.
I understand wanting to do simplicity, but when you basically have a gang vs gang game in an urban and suburban environment it seems kind of silly to not include rules for indoors right up front.
I admit I'm not too familiar with the comic (but I do have the first two compendiums on the way from Amazon!) but I can't imagine looking for loot and not having to enter buildings to do so. And encountering a member of another gang while doing so, or getting trapped inside a building with another gang outside seem to be reasonable circumstances to expect.
What rules do you need for indoors though, if the rules are fairly simple? Treat doors and windows like Xcom does, solid until you want to walk through them and then they're effectively not there. Done, fighting indoors is solved There are probably other games if you want some kind of realistic breach and clear but I don't think you really need special rules to move through buildings.
That said, for my own little ruleset I've been tinkering with, there are a few things...but that's mostly because of how I spawn zombies and all that junk. For a skirmish game, just treat them like boxes you can take the top off of or whatever.
GrimDork wrote: What rules do you need for indoors though, if the rules are fairly simple? Treat doors and windows like Xcom does, solid until you want to walk through them and then they're effectively not there. Done, fighting indoors is solved There are probably other games if you want some kind of realistic breach and clear but I don't think you really need special rules to move through buildings.
.
I don't disagree with you, and that is why I am surprised Mantic is not including even such simplistic mechanisms in the rules. It would not take much page space and would add a lot to the game. By not including at least rudimentary rules, even as 'optional' or 'advanced' rules, they are (in my opinion) hurting the game.
Ouch endtransmission, I've deleted my own double posts to similar non-post infamy as well =/
@CptJake, yeah what you say makes sense. I think more or less, they don't intend to include buildings that you can go into within the kickstarter itself and so are staying away from the subject entirely. But like we say, would be really easy to ignore buildings without being weird about it.
If they have any sense, they'll pay AMC to run ads for the Kickstarter when The Walking Dead returns this month. Thats the best way to bring the game to the attention of the new blood TWD fans.
TV commercials are hella expensive, especially if they want it to air during a high rated show. They'd probably have to do a new kickstarter just to fund a 15 second spot.
No chance according to Variety TWD is the 3rd most expensive show to advertise on and a commercial package of 30 second adverts on TWD is $502,500. Granted that's for multiple airings but you probably wouldn't get a one off ad from the network.
Aeneades wrote: The Walking Dead TV show is a separate licence so that won't be any crossover with the show (the show is back for second half of current season in just under 2 weeks so they could buy a tv advert to show during show but think very unlikely due to massive cost involved).
I meant in the sense that people will start watching the show again and think "wow, walking dead!" and then be prompted to look at the KS. Rather than the show/comic being at the back of people's minds, as I'm sure it is for a lot of people now.
Just looked it up, second half of series 6 starts on Valentine's day so at least Mantic were smart enough to see that as an opportunity.
DaveC wrote: No chance according to Variety TWD is the 3rd most expensive show to advertise on and a commercial package of 30 second adverts on TWD is $502,500. Granted that's for multiple airings but you probably wouldn't get a one off ad from the network.
Print leaflets and package them with all TWD DVD's, games and comic books then. Post ads on the TWD forums, sponsor Youtube channels who host TWD coverage and content.
I really hope they don't follow Gamesworkshops example.
In 2014 it cost $413,695 for a 30 second spot during Walking Dead. I expect a 15 second slot would cost around $300,000 this year and even more if they want it during next weeks mid-season premier.
If they had a finished product some of this would be possible. Also thru Talking Dead. But without a finished product and the lead time nope. Advertising won't work. Who advertises a kickstarter on a commercial anyway?
Mantic in KS comment section wrote:The only miniature on the page not approved by Skybound is the greyed-out Walker. The renders and painted miniatures we've shown off have all been approved.
I knew the base game was approved. No way they could meet their schedule if it wasn't.
Bioptic wrote: More importantly, they are 35mm+ scale, rather than 30mm for WD.
Thanks -- Is there a scale comparison pic of TWD vs. Z or other 35mm figures anywhere?
As for indoors, in the comic books, indoors were *very* dangerous: not enough lighting, no LOS, no room to fire or swing weapons, things could pop out anywhere, etc. At least, that was my impression. Easier to run away from the zombies and shoot 'em where you can see 'em.
Has anyone found mention of this KS *outside* of the hobby market? I see discussions of the Telltale Games TWD video games, but not this KS.
TWD shouldn't fall into the same trap, $125 is an easier sell, and they should be able to keep up a very slow burn in terms of the mini count increasing up to around 100 at the $1m mark.
You just know they're going to do something like +12 walkers soon, that's a very easy one to go ahead with. They always do the least interesting or generous stretch goals in the first few days, saving the better ones for when things are going more slowly.
Best just to grab an EB at the start, then wait and see if it is worth it at the end.
This has a couple of things going against it. The KS bubble has started to burst a little, and Mantic has managed to turn a lot of wargamers off their KS with their consistently ...spotty delivery and quality, which obviously blows out their shipping costs, which in turn has led to much, much higher shipping costs. This, plus wave shipping will hurt them here (and from here on - WarPath didn't exactly crack anywhere near a million and while shipping isn't the reason, it's certainly a contributing factor.)
I also think you're very hopeful if you're expecting a dozen walkers added as a stretch goal. They're clearly not going down the "pile of minis" route with this one.
Theophony wrote: Only $20K for the day so far......when do we tell Ronnie we have a problem? We're not at dungeon saga levels even.
Glass half full:
Mantic on KS comments wrote:@ Big Blue - this Kickstarter has the second best first day we've ever had, we think it's anything but unimpressive. We're very happy with the launch and it's ahead of where we thought we'd be.
@ Rune - The first day is always an anomaly, today has been a great day and we have good momentum - most people would love to get over 150 backers in a day!
Perspective, it is an amazing thing.
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I found a few more shots with 1:43 vehicles to show how they will work:
Since we are more than two-thirds of the way to unlocking Andrea and Amy – we thought we’d take a look at what’s next, continuing our march to a milestone $250,000 with some great new rewards.
Stretch Goals: $230,000 – Booster Walkers and Equipment Cards
'Whatever you do, DON'T SHOOT!' Rick Grimes, Issue 09
Double trouble! Get not one but TWO unique Walker booster miniatures as part of Something to Fear, increasing the number of enemies to fend off as well as the variety. The ‘half-walker’ is a particular favorite of ours.
You also get four unique equipment cards to upgrade your survivors with, including a Sawn-off Shotgun and Rick’s Colt Python.
UP NEXT:
We are well ahead of where we expected to be on Day Two and so to celebrate our milestone goal we are going to bring out everyone’s favorite katana-wielding survivor… it’s Michonne!
'I think about all the things I'm going to do to you and it makes me cry. It scares me.' Michonne, Issue 29
To say thank you for supporting us we have created a Michonne figure for you in a unique pose exclusive to this Kickstarter which you will get as part of the Something to Fear pledge level.
Michonne is a very dangerous survivor in the game (as befits her character in the comic book) where the sculptor has modeled her pose on this piece of iconic comic art, whilst sculpting her in an outfit she wore whilst in the prison:
We hope you like both goals and can't wait to show you what's next!
Let us know what you want to see next in the comments below.
I like the look of that barricade. I know stuff like that isn't technically hard to make on your own but... I'm still more likely to bust out a piece of hard plastic (important) scenery, trim it, spray it, and randomly paint it when it's laying around.
In case they don't give us fancy plastic vehicles (not counting on it), here are a few I just got in:
Spoiler:
I think some of the trucks are a little big but they still work, especially as larger variants of the trucks and not smaller baby pickups, and ambulances/service trucks are pretty sizable. I think that school bus may be a little small but it didn't list a scale and I think it still works.
Sorry for the long post but is this what we're working with for now?
StF 6 survivors 12 walkers
Atlanta 4 survivors 1walker
booster miniatures 3 survivors
10 (plastic?) loot markers
Andrea & Amy 2 survivors
Michone 1 survivor
Double trouble walker booster 2 walkers
Plus all of the cards and rules and mats and stuff. But models wise? When they add the Atlanta walker, for instance, are we adding another walker to Something to Fear... or are we filling in one of the missing sculpts? The later is what I based my numbers off of, otherwise there may be a few more zombies in there..
It's linking to text saying its a KS exclusive variant of the figure, not that Michonne as a character will be KS exclusive. Given that in the comments section on the KS a lot of people clearly cannot read then it's pretty pointless.
Anyhow I'm more than happy with the value now at $115. Even at $20k in a day that's more than some KS fund at in a month.
Michonne is apparently not a Kickstarter exclusive anymore according to CMON in the comments. Not sure what happened there. It may be a timed exclusive instead now but that sculpt will be available elsewhere.
I wonder if they have been told they cannot do Kickstarter exclusive miniatures?
And Tree Trunk Leg Michone with GIANT sword is now KS exclusive again. Another version with her pets will be in the KS at some point and that one will be available via retail.
I saw that. Good. Maybe they'll be inconsistent with the two Michone sculpts and the second will have better legs somehow. I so like that her baggage train will be included.
Well, she's wearing different trousers in that scene in the comic! So unless they completely ignore the reference material, you should be happier.
Things are inching, inching along though! I assume Mantic is biding their time until the base package is attractive enough to warrant advertising things more widely, because word of mouth & advertising is the only way for these sorts of campaigns increase their totals, what with there being no add-ons.
Will be interesting if/when the rules & BoW play video gets released. A big draw could be if this is genuinely a skirmish game that is both satisfying and can be played in the timeframe of a standard boardgame! Again, the Imperial Assault/X-Wing Comparisons.
Aeneades wrote: Michonne is apparently not a Kickstarter exclusive anymore according to CMON in the comments. Not sure what happened there. It may be a timed exclusive instead now but that sculpt will be available elsewhere.
I wonder if they have been told they cannot do Kickstarter exclusive miniatures?
Aeneades wrote: Michonne is apparently not a Kickstarter exclusive anymore according to CMON in the comments. Not sure what happened there. It may be a timed exclusive instead now but that sculpt will be available elsewhere.
I wonder if they have been told they cannot do Kickstarter exclusive miniatures?
I wish CMON had this property!
Bah, apologies. I default to CMON when talking about zombie kickstarters. I had been hoping that they would get the rights to release a walking dead edition of zombicide.
Been a couple hours, guess I'll update it if anyone is still watching . TMNT is currently at $271k to TWD $232k, guess the turtles still know how to kick it .
Kickstarter
9
Booster Walkers locked in
Posted by Mantic Games
Great news – that’s our latest stretch goal adding two additional Walkers to the Something to Fear pledge level.
These additions mean that the total value of Something to Fear is up to at least $175 MSRP – with much more to come!
Milestone Stretch Goal: $250,000 Kickstarter Exclusive Michonne
'I think about all the things I'm going to do to you and it makes me cry. It scares me.' Michonne, Issue 29
To say thank you for supporting us we have created a Michonne figure for you in a unique pose exclusive to this Kickstarter. You will get this miniature as part of the Something to Fear pledge level.
Michonne is a very dangerous survivor in the game (as befits her character in the comic book) where the sculptor has modeled her pose on this piece of iconic comic art, whilst sculpting her in an outfit she wore whilst in the prison:
We will be back with a new stretch goal later on.
Yesterday we published the first part of our unboxing on The Walking Dead Starter Set, which mainly covered the survivor groups. Today we’ve released part two, taking a further look at the contents – you can read it here.
Unboxing Atlanta Camp
Included in Something to Fear is Atlanta – the first expansion for The Walking Dead: All Out War.
Building on the models and story from the boxed game, this set include a host of new models and new gameplay as well as a number of exciting new scenarios for your survivors to face!
Out on the Road
The terrain in this part of the story is different to the more urban areas founds in the boxed game, with campfires, tents and the beloved RV making up the Atlanta camp. There’s even a new mat with alternate artwork depicting the woodland surroundings – that will join up to the one found in the boxed game, so that you can play larger games. The survivors have set up camp and only travel to the city for much needed supply runs. With new surroundings come new challenges – the campfire being one of them.
Campfires attract walkers as they produce a lot of light, noise and heat. If a walker comes in range of one they will automatically approach it. You can use this to your advantage to lure walkers away from you, but of course if you are caught unawares while standing next to one, this becomes a very dangerous place to be.
The survivors are aided by new equipment and loot cards. These include devastating weapons such as the 12 Gauge shotgun (there had to be one!) and Molotov Cocktails. Be careful – those tents are flammable! The iconic Gory Clothing is also available, to fool walkers into ignoring you, for a time.
Fortunately, survivors close to a campfire can grab a burning brand from it to use as a weapon. Any walker who come sin contact with a campfire will also be set ablaze. There are more rules than we can cover in one post, covering tents, repairing vehicles, woodland terrain and the RV in combat.
The Struggle Continues….
On top of these there are narrative scenarios depicting the beginnings of the more hardened survivors found later in the story. Most of the scenarios can be played one player if you wish, or co-operatively. The campaign keeps track of supplies and also has consequences carry over from previous games if you are playing the scenarios in order.
The story itself covers event from Rick’s first near-lethal trip to Atlanta to find his family, to risking the city once more with to hunt for supplies, to an attack by the walkers disrupting the survivors’ rest around a campfire. More characters from the comics are added into the mix, including Dale, Allen, Jim and Donna. It’s up to you if they’ll survive until the end…
In case you want to play these scenarios with different characters, or don’t have all of the models to hand, each scenario also includes guidelines to use other characters – based on their points cost. Additionally, there are new event cards to make you games even more nail-biting – for example, a howling thundefrstorm can drench your survivors, rendering their Gory Clothes less effective and drawing the dead.
One scenario of note is Ready to Roll – wherein the survivors must fight off walkers while attempting to repair the RV in time to leave. The walkers just keep on coming, so this will be a frantic scenario where you’ll have to balance your priorities wisely. Following this there is a Vicious Betrayal, which I’ll not spoil, but those of you who are familiar with the comics will know what happens here.
(Note that there will be spoilers in this Kickstarter if you've not read the comics yet)
Carol, Glenn, Hershel, barricades, more Walkers? What do you want to see next and why?
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No gameplay vidoes yet? No photos of actual minis yet? Why do all the minis look like they have been squished and their legs became fat?
Hmm... not sure about this one of the tmnt kickstarter. Great ideas but the limited info and renders make me cautious due to seeing others get burned by kickatarters.
I think I'll do what I always do with mantic, and what I did recently with their dungeon saga. I'll wait and buy a never used kickstarter pledge on ebay cheaper than an actual kickstarter plede costs! I'm assuming price has everything to do with exculsives. Cmon stuff goes up in price, mantic stuff down as all their exclusives are later released.
I'm not sure why we're all talking about the TMNT kickstarter here and on the KS page... I mean they're completely different genres and types of games?
Not interested in that personally. Maybe not this either, may be fun to pick up at retail but I'm getting a bit worn out having so many hobby items purchased a year in advance.
The value *is* creeping up, and I think if we hit 500k+ the base pledge will really have a solid value by the end. Just not sure if the extras are enough to justify me tying the money up ahead of time.
Also, I have no idea about the gameplay video... but we *are* supposed to get the rules pretty soon.
Azazelx wrote: Well, they sent out the "hey we have a new kickstarter" email to MA/KoW/DB a few hours ago to try and drum up some more backers.
I resisted the urge to punch my screen, or shout missing component related obscenities while at work. I was so proud of myself I bought myself a candy bar.
They're customer service is on fire, and they're already pimping their next product.
They have posted in the comments that there is likely to be some basic rule set provided regarded character creation but no firm promise that it will be included or that it will be more than a couple lines long.
GrimDork wrote: I'm not sure why we're all talking about the TMNT kickstarter here and on the KS page... I mean they're completely different genres and types of games?
They're the same genre of Kickstarter and targeting the same genre of customer, seems pretty relevant.
I suppose. Though the other one seems a lot more geared to boardgames (and therefore will probably do better), which I guess was my thought. Also zombies =/= cartoon turtles but sure, they both have miniatures and are kickstarters.
Zombies=Foot Clan Ninjas, they show up like a bad rash and ruin the day, but your survivors/turtles must punch them in the face/head to defeat/kill them. So basically the same thing . Shredder=Abombination.
The value *is* creeping up, and I think if we hit 500k+ the base pledge will really have a solid value by the end. Just not sure if the extras are enough to justify me tying the money up ahead of time.
The kicker at that point becomes the postage on this one, and possibly even wave postage. Plus the need to trust Mantic to get it right.
The value *is* creeping up, and I think if we hit 500k+ the base pledge will really have a solid value by the end. Just not sure if the extras are enough to justify me tying the money up ahead of time.
The kicker at that point becomes the postage on this one, and possibly even wave postage. Plus the need to trust Mantic to get it right.
Warpath postage is being reported as unexpectedly high by many people. Seen some folks in the US reporting $75-$100 shipping.
Are they still offering refunds for WP? I might have to pull the pin as their AU postage is never friendly once I go through the PM. I can always get the Not-IG at retail with free shipping in a year's time, if I still care.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Are they having it shipped to Nome, Alaska by the bravest sled dog ever? How much did they pledge for?
I believe it was to middle America, Ultimate Tyrant but before add-ons.
So a decent amount of stuff, but nowhere remote.
International DHL/UPS can get that high; they're obviously not taking advantage of flat-rate shipping or shipping out of a US-based warehouse (which I thought they were doing at some point?). Yeah, even more reason not to back a Mantic KS when I can just buy in bulk, at deep discount later from Miniature Market and enjoy flat-rate shipping or free if I buy $100 in stuff.
Edit:
The sad thing is that people might pay for courier shipping and have their package in the US still delivered by USPS.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I thought it was humurous.
Will Blaine appear? Blaine, the inter-dimensional traveller renowned for appearing in Mantic Kickstarter campaigns, will not be making an appearance in The Walking Dead: All Out War miniatures game Kickstarter for obvious licensing reasons!
I can almost guarentee we'll see a Blaine custom card, using a Dreadbal/Deadzone figure.
I liked that people were suggested that they release a leather wearing biker with a crossbow who happens to look like Norman Reedus but just call him Derryl instead along with a one handed man who looks like Michael Rooker but called Merryl instead.
It is conceptually strange though, because I understand that the TV programme isn't loosely based on the comic - it follows the same plotline and shares the majority of the same characters, right?
As someone who has neither read the comic, or watched this on TV, only played the Telltale series, I can appreciate that the models don't look like much of anything to a non-fan. They are a collection of realistic (although stylised) people with weapons. As a result, a $20 000 stretch goal to unlock "woman with Katana" or "zombie in police uniform" fails to excite in the way that Mars Attacks did with Giant Mutated Scorpions or Flying Saucers.
I will say that the rules introduced in the Atlanta expansion do sound interesting - now you're not just managing terrain and zombies, but fire interacting with the terrain and zombies. I'm really interested to see how the skirmishes feel, because if they make them short yet detailed and tactically interesting, I feel Mantic will have cracked something important to me.
One of the more popular (if not most popular) characters from the tv show have never featured in the comics so people are trying to find ways to persuade Mantic to include him (and his brother) disputed not having the licence.
Talking about the Telltale game, Mantic did say that it may be possible to include characters from the Telltale game within All Out War if the Kickstarter was a big success. Hopefully they can still come to some agreement for those characters in the future.
The Saviors/Negan Expansion will help boost sales, I guess, but - and yes, 250K is nothing to sneeze at! - I'm still surprised at how slow, relatively speaking, this one is moving.
Alpharius wrote: The Saviors/Negan Expansion will help boost sales, I guess, but - and yes, 250K is nothing to sneeze at! - I'm still surprised at how slow, relatively speaking, this one is moving.
are you actually surprised? Or are you "surprised?"
I think jumping to six figures early one with a watered down license in a saturated market when you have a tepid reputation for delivering product is the surprising part.
Yes, I was actually surprised to see it jump up so quickly at the beginning, but I suspect that was just people snapping up early birds they may or may not even really want, just to have them.
but I am surprised to see the add ons starting so soon as Ronnie kept saying they'd only show up if it did really, really well (so I was expecting $500K +)
Aeneades wrote: Early on in the campaign the number of people demanding Blaine was crazily and they wouldn't accept he wasn't going to appear.
People have also been requesting characters from movies / tv shows. None of these people actually seem to want any characters from the comics at all.
People are clearly very used to Zombicide's take on this sort of thing. Also, Blaine appearing in everything Mantic does.
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CptJake wrote: It would be sad if they are already moving to paid for add ons this early.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'm not surprised at the speed it's moving,
but I am surprised to see the add ons starting so soon as Ronnie kept saying they'd only show up if it did really, really well (so I was expecting $500K +)
Didn't they make a big song and dance about how there would be only one level and no add-ons since they still can't manage to pack a fething box properly? Either way, while this KS has made a respectable amount of coin, it's dead in the water and is clearly performing way under expectations. Remember ScarletSquig's (multi-?)million dollar predictions? I'm sure he got that from the excitement at Mantic when it turns out that the Zombie genre is indeed saturated, and the enthusiasm at the time.
But since it's stagnating now, they still have 2k backers - which is nothing to sneeze at, so it makes sense if they're now going to release the add-ons and attempt to monetise them as much as possible in an attempt to get the campaign moving again. Of course this can lead to significantly increased shipping costs, and Mantic Packing (tm) which could burn them when all these new Mantic-virgin backers get burned down the line...
I don't think it's the fact that the Z market is saturated, it's like Lovecrafts Cthulhu, no matter how much there is it will sell. I attribute it more to the 'value' of the box contents from the start and people just about had enough of Mantics shoddy packing, QC and customer service.
It's a bit of both, I think. Certainly a significant number of people on our end of the purchase spectrum feel burned enough by Mantic at this stage. But as I said. 2k backers is a healthy number, though obviously they were expecting a hell of a lot more.
Didn't they make a big song and dance about how there would be only one level and no add-ons since they still can't manage to pack a fething box properly? Either way, while this KS has made a respectable amount of coin, it's dead in the water and is clearly performing way under expectations. Remember ScarletSquig's (multi-?)million dollar predictions? I'm sure he got that from the excitement at Mantic when it turns out that the Zombie genre is indeed saturated, and the enthusiasm at the time.
Wasn't quite aware of it being comic license only at the time, TV show license would have been a much easier sell.
Also, the mini count on this one is taking a while to ramp up, think it'll be a slow burn that ends up with lots of stuff being thrown in, the 6 extra barricades and 6 extra walkers as the next 2 stretch goals are a sign of Mantic starting to ramp up the mini count. Hoping they have plans for cars, RV, tents + campfire too, there's a lot of potential for solid upgrades to the overall quality of the game, which is just as important as the mini count.
I do think this one could still hit $1 mil, it just needs to attract more backers, although most people only look once at a kickstarter, which is where this one has fallen down by waiting too long. A $50 pledge level with the base set and Ks exclusives only would have been good too, $125 is a meaty sum. Dungeon Saga was packed with stuff for $100 right from the start, anything over $100 makes people think very carefully about whether to back or not.
The rules for this game are really great, they need to get them out there soon (day 1 of the KS would have been ideal). There's a lot of smaller companies doing Kickstarter better currently, because they really need to or they won't fund, there's only a few like Mantic that can roll with arbitrary $25k for 1 mini goals, and even then I'm not sure if they can still do that without sacrificing some of the early campaign speed. There isn't as much of a buzz around this one, all the facebook posts I saw about it were on launch day with lots of people commenting "20-odd minis and paper terrain for $125, too expensive, pass".. those people will not look at it twice.
The stretch goal gap has gone down to $15k now, I wouldn't be surprised if it went down to $10k mid-campaign.
For those who haven't looked at the most recent update here are the next stretch goals -
Those 6 extra Walkers are all unique sculpts and one of those cards if a Compound Bow for all the Daryl fans.
Now, the addon -
That's the base game and expansion maps in a better material (I would presume mouse mat but it is never specifically stated). Until today Mantic have been saying that these mats would only be available at retail as the postage costs makes them really uneconomical for backers but commenters were demanding them so here they are.
It sounds like the first proper addon expansion is coming next week and will be based around Hershel’s farm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They have now tidied up the pledge level graphic to make it a lot clearer -
I wish they would blank out the design of the Atlanta map in the Atlanta expansion though as it shows it as a copy of the base game map.
It's not going to hit a million. They were way too tight with the initial offering which in no way was worth $125 plus shipping. Obviously they expected it to blow up and go gangbusters so it would later be worth $125, but feth pledging for a KS that only becomes worth it's asking price halfway through or towards the end of the campaign.
I mean, it doesn't need to be Bones 1 or even KoW1, but you know, if you're asking money upfront with this kind of lead time, you'd expect it to be value for money from the point you ask people to plonk down their cash.
This has been Mantic's style as of late. High initial funding, measly stretches with huge gaps at first, and then people start dropping so they start piling on the bonuses.
Why not just have them there from the beginning?
I don't get it.
At least with every CMON campaign, you have a pretty decent value from the very beginning and you know it's only going to get better from there.
I don't think I've seen a really good Manitc "sweet spot" pledge from the very beginning since the original Deadzone campaign.
One guy just asked in the comments if they have given up on Mars Attacks, specifically the terrain. Mantic replied "No, but it does expire this year. The scenery is part of our Battlezones range rather than Mars Attacks and that will be staying." So I wonder if TWD will be the next brand they make and then decide not to pay the license fee later on.
Theophony wrote: One guy just asked in the comments if they have given up on Mars Attacks, specifically the terrain. Mantic replied "No, but it does expire this year. The scenery is part of our Battlezones range rather than Mars Attacks and that will be staying." So I wonder if TWD will be the next brand they make and then decide not to pay the license fee later on.
Exactly.
Release and run.
No support for a significant part of their range, where is the MA, DBX and DB support? There are no continual 'presence' of these games after release, no mantic game/battle reports, no excitement, no follow through just KS after KS with little or no support afterwards.
Even KoW which is growing significantly, where is the mantic content? Its all player content that is dominating the media.
Theophony wrote: One guy just asked in the comments if they have given up on Mars Attacks, specifically the terrain. Mantic replied "No, but it does expire this year. The scenery is part of our Battlezones range rather than Mars Attacks and that will be staying." So I wonder if TWD will be the next brand they make and then decide not to pay the license fee later on.
Exactly.
Release and run.
No support for a significant part of their range, where is the MA, DBX and DB support? There are no continual 'presence' of these games after release, no mantic game/battle reports, no excitement, no follow through just KS after KS with little or no support afterwards.
Even KoW which is growing significantly, where is the mantic content? Its all player content that is dominating the media.
Walking dead will be another dump and run
Thats my biggest issue with mantic. They spread themselves mega thin and try to do too much at once. Warpath was bare bones for years, KOW had (Not sure if its changed) a load of units missing from the offical ranges for a long time. They seem to struggle with post game support due to always hunting the next kickstarter.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a change in miniature kickstarters now where people just want stretch goals to be, well, what it's going to cost them...
For example, I know the Dropfleet Commander guys have a pretty close relationship with Mantic, yet when they launched their kickstarter, it was pretty darn close to, "this is what it's going to cost us."
And that ended up being pretty darn popular and going quite successfully and I'm certain that Hawk will end up not having overstretched themselves (or p*ed off retailers either...)
Theophony wrote: One guy just asked in the comments if they have given up on Mars Attacks, specifically the terrain. Mantic replied "No, but it does expire this year. The scenery is part of our Battlezones range rather than Mars Attacks and that will be staying." So I wonder if TWD will be the next brand they make and then decide not to pay the license fee later on.
Exactly.
Release and run.
No support for a significant part of their range, where is the MA, DBX and DB support? There are no continual 'presence' of these games after release, no mantic game/battle reports, no excitement, no follow through just KS after KS with little or no support afterwards.
Even KoW which is growing significantly, where is the mantic content? Its all player content that is dominating the media.
Walking dead will be another dump and run
Thats my biggest issue with mantic. They spread themselves mega thin and try to do too much at once. Warpath was bare bones for years, KOW had (Not sure if its changed) a load of units missing from the offical ranges for a long time. They seem to struggle with post game support due to always hunting the next kickstarter.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Mantic to focus on their own, incomplete products rather than produce a license that likely won't receive further support down the road? The MA kickstarter brought in $558k. If this does the same or less, what chance that they'll treat it the same and basically forget it exists post-kickstarter?
I dont know about Mars Attacks, but I do know that Ronnie (mantic chief) is a noted fan of the walking dead comics so imagine on that strength alone there is a good future for things in this KS.
Mantic has two real games, KoW and DBO. Everything else lately has been "just give us money because you're used to giving us money, no effort on our side required".
To me, it's understandable that a mass warfare game (especially one with more than 4 races/factions) would take a large amount of time to develop, both in terms of rule sets and not having models for every unit choice you can take. Games Workshop struggled for many years with filling out the roster for each of the races, and I gather still somewhat fails to do so.
I think this is okay, as long as the rules are complete as sold, and that the system continues to be supported. If you decide to collect a Sci-Fi army, it's helpful to know that the £100 block of troops you've bought aren't going to be rendered irrelevant by a rules change next year, and that entire system isn't going to be abandoned after two years!
True boardgames are a different kettle of fish. I'd argue that it's fine to essentially release these as a one and done - they are complete in and of themselves, then can have additional expansions if required, but nothing is broken when expansions stop.
It gets strange when you get into boardgame-tabletop hybrids though, especially ones that encourage sustained league play. I'd argue that Mars Attacks, Dungeon Saga, Mars Attacks, Dreadball, X-Wing, Imperial Assault, Super Dungeon Explore, Ninja All Stars, Blood Bowl, Necromunda etc. all fall into this.
You are expected to spend a lot of time preparing and painting models, possibly aquiring scenery. You may be invested in a league spanning 6 months, a year. There aren't 1-2 expansions, there are dozens, and you're expected to pick the ones you want (closer to a tabletop game).
Support matters here, because you're investing far, far more time and effort into these games than something like Pandemic, or even Zombicide. You might need a community to exist to even have people to play against. You are going to be upset that you dropped $350 on Mars Attacks or Dreadball Xtreme, only to have them drop off the face of the earth 6 months after retail release. You are certainly going to be more wary of spending comparable amount of time & money on anything put out by one of these companies in the future.
I think one of the reasons Fantasy Flight is so well regarded is that they are excellent in ensuring the £200 you spent on little painted X-Wings continues to feel relevant long after the fact.
Would be a lot nicer if they had sculptor who could sculpt females, especially faces. Sandra. Donna and Amy all fall into the "That's a man, baby!" zone. and then there are Michone's legs...
I will generally buy zombie figs on principle, but the sculpting on the figs in this game leaves a lot to be desired.
Somewhat interesting, from the Kickstarter comments - when the stretch goal for plastic wrecked cars is (hopefully) eventually met, Mantic will be adding some more of them into the $40 add-on. I know the mats are smaller than Deadzone/MA, but they were $25 each in their respective Kickstarters, so that seems like a decent eventual value.
Bioptic wrote: Somewhat interesting, from the Kickstarter comments - when the stretch goal for plastic wrecked cars is (hopefully) eventually met, Mantic will be adding some more of them into the $40 add-on. I know the mats are smaller than Deadzone/MA, but they were $25 each in their respective Kickstarters, so that seems like a decent eventual value.
Yeah, sounds great until you realize the extra shipping will cost more than a real wrecked car.
The fear being that 'value' rapidly diminishes when you factor in what Mantic is charging for shipping now, in two waves, versus what you could get most of this for later on, once it is released (and you can see if it is actually any good), at a discount and probably with free shipping too.
Alpharius wrote: The fear being that 'value' rapidly diminishes when you factor in what Mantic is charging for shipping now, in two waves, versus what you could get most of this for later on, once it is released (and you can see if it is actually any good), at a discount and probably with free shipping too.
Still, early days here, lots of time left...
And it's not like that michonne exclusive is anything to draw backers.
My wife, who is a hugh fan of both the comic and the tv show(and a very good figure painter), LOL'ed when i showed her the pics of the character figures.
They suck.
I'm still mystified as to why they chose the "I'm About To Die" pose for a few. How worthless from a skirmish game perspective to have one of the few figures in your gang posed like that.
Alpharius wrote: The fear being that 'value' rapidly diminishes when you factor in what Mantic is charging for shipping now, in two waves, versus what you could get most of this for later on, once it is released (and you can see if it is actually any good), at a discount and probably with free shipping too.
Still, early days here, lots of time left...
You live in the U.S; just wait til mini market gets them and sells them for 40% off and buy the lot with free shipping.
Edit:
Meanwhile, TMNT is about to hit $350k.
Edit edit:
It's weird the KS says 2102 backers but it add up the # in each category, you only get 2015.
MangoMadness wrote: I find it interesting thay they are pushing the 'look at the value! Now over $200 MSRP' angle to try and give a high perceived value of the product.
Most in the know though know this is rubbish with the way Mantic products are discounted through various channels.
Anyone else want a 'no models' version on the cheap and just use zombicide?
It's not even with discounts. What's the value they're applying to those dice bags or the "KS exclusive" Sheriff's badge?
I dunno if I even want the rules. Having never watched or read TWD and seeing that making your own characters and gang is going to be done in Mantic Afterthought style, it's not especially appealing.
I dunno if I even want the rules. Having never watched or read TWD and seeing that making your own characters and gang is going to be done in Mantic Afterthought style, it's not especially appealing.
I'll just be using This is Not a Test (amazing post-apoc ruleset) or Project Z (Warlord is traditionally good) rules for my zombie/nuke apoc wargaming needs. Hell, even Mutants and Death Ray Guns is likely better than whatever Mantic come up with.
To be fair, rulesets are one of Mantic's stronger points. Where they fall down is in a lack of editing or where the freelanced author is allowed to simply "phone it in" for things that isn't something they're keenly interested in - witness KoW1's campaign siege rules, or anything beyond the basic HeroQuest II aspect of Dungeon Saga. I guess a major issue there is that the KS-timeline that Mantic is married to results in rushed out rules that are pretty good but often flawed. How long was DZ out between the final conclusion of the KS before the new KS was announced? Like 7 months? GW would be proud!
On the other hand, KoW's first hardcover incanation (1.5) was very good, and the RC's editorial efforts made version 2 into a great game. Not sure what DZ 2 will end up like, as the RC again had a fething stupidly short amount of time to fix the rules. Like the last 3 weeks of December or something feth stupid like that.
So, err.. in conclusion. Kings of War is pretty good!
Kings of War is also in the weird situation of basically needing no support from Mantic to be playable. It's incredibly atypical for a miniatures game to officially be that open to using other company's figures instead of the first party ones. I'm not complaining and my KOW armies are a mix of Mantic and other stuff, but it means that if Mantic stopped making KOW figures tomorrow the game it would still be surprisingly easy to build armies for it. Most games like that are from companies that make just rulebooks, no figures.
That's true, and speaks to the unique situation that KoW have in regards to their timeline in relation to the origin of the game's rules, Mantic itself as a counts-as-WHFB company, and also the rather unique, post-AoS situation that now KoW finds itself in.
Still, while a series of fortuitous timings have allowed KoW to get to the point where it is now, if the actual rules weren't of quality, we might all be playing God of Battles or... I dunno what other options we have in that particular sub-genre?
I think this KS can make or break Mantic. Seriously, as you said they've had a series of good events happen with timing that has made their system accessible to a huge audience, but they have made so many poor/ failed decisions in the same time. This KS is getting them notariaty in the non gaming circles, but what they've shown is a poor value up front and they've lost a golden opportunity with it. GW looks like they might actually be changing directions with this new CEO, and FW just knocked it out of the park with what we've seen from the weekender, so the main place they've been stealing the customer base from is getting stronger. Mantic needs to act quickly or lose the foothold they had.
A good point. I'm not likely to back this Mantic KS, am considering getting a refund on the WarPath one, and in the past couple of weeks I've bought 5x GW "Start Collecting" army sets and two unit boxes. I never would have guessed that as a situation I'd be in 12 months or 2 years ago.
CptJake wrote: I'm still mystified as to why they chose the "I'm About To Die" pose for a few. How worthless from a skirmish game perspective to have one of the few figures in your gang posed like that.
Are you talking about "Liam"? I think that was the only up-close facial expression he had in the entire comic book series! He doesn't even meet our heroes -- he dies in two panels, as he's pushed out of a door by his own group to "distract" some zombies!
Of course, he doesn't get a name in the comic, but Scavenger 1 doesn't quite have that ring to it.
As for Donna, I think that sculpt's on the tame side. Warning: You've been warned.
Azazelx wrote: That's true, and speaks to the unique situation that KoW have in regards to their timeline in relation to the origin of the game's rules, Mantic itself as a counts-as-WHFB company, and also the rather unique, post-AoS situation that now KoW finds itself in.
Still, while a series of fortuitous timings have allowed KoW to get to the point where it is now, if the actual rules weren't of quality, we might all be playing God of Battles or... I dunno what other options we have in that particular sub-genre?
Yeah, Kings of War is in a Pathfinder-esque position of "the new edition of game A changed things dramatically, here's game B that does things very much like the old A". It even has the similarity of KOW being written by a former GW writer like how the Pathfinder people used to do official D&D magazines.
Going back to The Walking Dead, a thought I just had was: couldn't you repurpose the Mars Attacks mats pretty easily for this game? Basically, just ignore the grid and you should be good.
Yep, although they're less detailed and not in the style of the comics (which might actually make them more generically useful!). If they're going out of license this year, they also might end up on clearance.
Wave 2 shipping has me hesitating on the mats, the actual price is $40 + shipping because shipping is charged separately for each wave this time.
Deadzone and Mars Attacks mats retailed at £15/ $25 each for a larger size, or $50 for 2.
I will probably just use my Mars Attacks mat and terrain, that KS was an amazing deal, I literally got the boxed game and bonus minis (68 minis + terrain) for $15 then spent the pledge credit on discount battlezones.
I notice that Mantic is doing the "Worth over $175 RRP" thing on the pledge level graphics, I remember the first KoWKS where I was pointing out "worth over $700" on the $225 pledge. Good old days.
This will have to be worth $400+ RRP for it to match the level of other Mantic Kickstarters (since the RRP on this one is brutally high at $20 for 3 minis), I'm sure it'll get there, it'll just take a while to get past the slower start.
I'm hoping they can get a couple more expansions into the base pledge by the time this finishes, Herschel's farm and the prison would be great.
Still only at 31 minis, the next stretch goal will take that up to 37, but it'll still need at least 80 minis at KS finish to be considered good value, especially with paper mats only, and limited 3D terrain, the mini count can't be skimped on. Charged shipping should also allow them some extra room to be generous.
I'm sure we'll get there. The pledge total has actually been really solid, staying above $10k every day without fail, that's pretty consistent performance a week into a KS, if it drops that's when they'll probably announce another expansion or add-on.
I'm not sure how much Mantic are having to pay for the license. In terms of value for money for what we get, I'm certainly wavering with my EB pledge.
In comparison, the Zombicide 3 kickstarter I was involved with, brought in;
$150 Pledge on Z3 got you (approx): 60 individual character sculpts (mix of survivors and zombivors)
172 Zombies (25+ different sculpts)
300 cards
12 double sided superthick card tiles
$125 Pledge on TWD gets you (approx) 15 individual character sculpts
16 Zombies (10 different sculpts?)
30 or so cards
1 paper mat
In terms of physical content, TWD contains about one tenth of the contents of Z3, although Z3 was $25 more. Just compare the coloured text.
I don't know what the Dungeon Saga figures were like, so can''t comment on quality, but the Zombicide ones look pretty good and paint up nicely.
eg. A quick search on Dakka's gallery found stuff like;
To be fair, TWD also gives you 10 plastic loot markers and 6 plastic barricades.
And a Spiffy KS Exclusive Badge!
That badge is gonna be a HUGE money maker on Ebay! You'll probably make enough selling it to TWD fans that it will pay for your pledge and all future expansions and help put your kid through college too!
While I agree that even Zombicides starting pledge was a better deal than TWDAOW KS currently is, it is probably not fair to compare what you got when they had $2,849,064 in funding and stretch goals after 30 days to TWDAOW's current $259,738 after a week. It's no where near a fair comparison.
I'm sure Mantic would through tons of free swag at us if they got close to 3 Million in support.
adamsouza wrote: While I agree that even Zombicides starting pledge was a better deal than TWDAOW KS currently is, it is probably not fair to compare what you got when they had $2,849,064 in funding and stretch goals after 30 days to TWDAOW's current $259,738 after a week. It's no where near a fair comparison.
I'm sure Mantic would through tons of free swag at us if they got close to 3 Million in support.
Yes, I'm sure they would give us plenty of "Quality" dice bags .
Even a week into the Zombicide KS there was already more given to the backers than what this will "give". I don't even believe they have reached the threshold of what they expect to give out for the base pledge yet. Shieldwolf games gave up on their KS even though it had made it's funding goal, and I think I'd almost want Mantic to do the same and come back with a realistic start over. Otherwise I think they will have to call the factory and say "Okay we need to take out these stretch goals out of all those wave 1 packages we have before we ship them because we didn't reach the mark. "
Even a week into the Zombicide KS there was already more given to the backers than what this will "give". I don't even believe they have reached the threshold of what they expect to give out for the base pledge yet.
My point was it's still an Apples and Oranges comparison, even if there are 10 times as many oranges.
It's obvious they are benchmarking themsesleves against games like 40K, Warmachine, and Malefaux and not boardgames like Zombicide, Zombie 15. or Zombies!!!
Do I think the WDAOW starter set should have inclded TWICE as many miniatures, without stretch goals ? YES.
Do I think Zombicide offered greater value for the dollar ? YES
I'm backing this because I'm a Walking Dead fan and I want Walking Dead Minaitures. If the game isn't fraking Amazing, they'll likely see the gaming table as Zombicide Survivors, or just sit on a shelf, looking pretty.
Price wise though there is simply no point in comparing the two games. Outside of Zombicide's Artist packs, and Kickstarter exclusive survivors, the average zombicide figure costs about $1, and MANTIC will never be able to touch that price point, on a licensed property.
If Mantic is comparing itself to Zombicide at all, it's using the $10 a survivor price model.
Not only did zombicide season 3 come with over 200 high quality (better than what mantic is showing) sculpts, it also came with sculpted barricades too! (Someone mentioned that twd came with barricades...) I own mars attack with every resin car and their terrain packs. They are poorly done with mold lines, bubbles, miscast pieces, wtc. The zombicide barricades were plastic, perfect, no complaints here!
Zombicide was cheaper too. Twd fans are backing but I think the overall gaming community is sitting this one out. Not a good deal at all right now (ha! Ninja turtles game is doing far better and I'm sure it will be a far worse game). It may be an apples and oranges comparison (although they are both coop, zombie based, etc... this is just a rip off of zombicide), but in a competitive gaming industry, companies have to be competative. Look at the gak gw gets for its pricing, but they have better value than mantic. I'm betting if cmon had this license, it would cost 15-20 percent more than zombicide, but would have the same great quality, great sculpts, and gameplay we have come to expect from them. This cost more for worse minis, far less of everything, etc. Remember the solo play mars attack game? Solo dungeon saga? Remember how that all turned out?
Mantic, please make the sculpts look better (they all look chunky and fat), give us at least 1 1/2 miniature per dollar pledged -zombicide, conan, etc), and show us some gameplay videos. We all know there is an end rush, but there is also an end pledge dropout period too. This will never hit a million and may not reach $600,000 without more incentive.
adamsouza wrote: I'm backing this because I'm a Walking Dead fan and I want Walking Dead Minaitures.
Big chunky ones.
Oh, wait. What's happening is called "monopolistic competition". That's when a product has both "monopoly" and "competitive" elements. Frex, the "competitive" element of TWD is that it's a zombie miniature game. That means, for those who only see it as such a game, it's competing against Zombicide and any number of other zombie games, even moreso if you're just looking at it as a miniatures game or source of miniatures. The "monopoly" part, of course, is that it's the *only* TWD miniatures game on the market, so, like yourself, if you're there for TWD miniatures, you're *not* going to consider other games as alternatives. It's not a "perfect monopoly" in that you will pay any price for it (eg. your water bill), or "pure competition" in that the product is identical to another product (eg. supermarket eggs). Note that this is closer to the *economic* definition of monopoly and competition, not the hyperbolic one.
It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.
Watching the daily totals on this , Maybe a retitle "The Crawling dead" Projection high of $591k and high end of trending puts it below $1M. I think they need some of those $7,500 sculpt me as a zombie pledges to sell.
Theophony wrote: Watching the daily totals on this , Maybe a retitle "The Crawling dead" Projection high of $591k and high end of trending puts it below $1M. I think they need some of those $7,500 sculpt me as a zombie pledges to sell.
I can't see people paying for something like that in a product that Mantic will likely forget existed inside of a year. No gameplay videos or rules and people still put in for $260k; that's a substantial showing of goodwill if you ask me but, in my opinion, there is a very tiny market for "give us your money and we'll eventually show you the rules for the game." You might see an uptick in pledges but TMNT is blowing this one out of the water right now and it has to have some effect on the number of backers.
Another issue is the whole pre-kickstarter talk about no add-ons, simple one-pledge that includes everything funded by the kickstarter and now we're seeing add-ons that will have separate charges for shipping. Really, there is literally no reason to back this KS unless you have some desire to back every Mantic kickstarter; this will likely be cheaper at retail and include free postage....but you'll still have to deal with shoddy Mantic box-packing.
CptJake wrote: It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.
Yeah, true. That's why I said "miniatures game", as opposed to "miniatures".
That being said, unlicensed miniatures don't include the range of officially licensed TWD miniatures, such as Scavenger 1, Scavenger 2, Scavenger 3, that guy who had only two lines on the first page of the comic series -- you know, the miniatures that are a *must* for any TWD miniatures fan...
CptJake wrote: It is not really the 'only source of TWD' minis, it is the only 'official licensed' source. Studio Miniatures, Hasslefree and probably other companies have TWD figures.
Yeah, true. That's why I said "miniatures game", as opposed to "miniatures".
Good point, I missed 'game' when I read your post.
Another issue is the whole pre-kickstarter talk about no add-ons, simple one-pledge that includes everything funded by the kickstarter and now we're seeing add-ons that will have separate charges for shipping. Really, there is literally no reason to back this KS unless you have some desire to back every Mantic kickstarter; this will likely be cheaper at retail and include free postage....but you'll still have to deal with shoddy Mantic box-packing.
I'm loving how folks point out that Mantic are 'valuing' those mats at $30 each and therefore the add on is a Great Deal get bent out of shape when you remind them that you need to add postage, and you can currently get the Mars Attacks mats at about $20 each, often including shipping, and those are bigger. But no, really, these TWD mats are totally worth $30 each!
And extra loot markers? I guess as scatter terrain they are okay, but you get the 10 you need to replace the cardboard tokens in your pledge already.
Another thing I've tried to get Mantic to address is scalability. If they envision playing this on a 2ft x 2ft square (or 20 inch x 20 inch square) and design the scenarios, movement rates and weapon ranges around that, how does it scale to a 4ft x 4ft or a 6ft x 4ft table? Will missions me all out of balance? 'Gather x loot in y turns' may be impossible on a bigger board for example. I know the rules will eventually be shown to us, as will a video, but I suspect the answer to this won't be too evident in the video and the rules are not likely to address it either.
I like this theme but we have a lot of miniatures and other stuff to use them in our tables. Do I need interested in this project if we use 28mm miniatures?
This is just pure speculation, but I'd imagine that the story-based scenario play included in the rulebook/expansion books:
1) Is the main advertised way of playing the game.
2) Requires that the games are played out within the specified 2x2 area.
Playing it within larger custom areas is going to fall under a more loosely-specified skirmish-type mode.
So e.g. "Defend the Greene Family Farm's Perimeter" would tell you to arrange the card scenery in a certain way to form fencing in this zone, a couple of barricades and a barn, deploy each group in a particular place (with specified models that can be swapped out for equivalent points values if desired) and some specific special rules.
Whereas e.g. the "Hold the Line" skirmish scenario specifies that you need to delineate a section of the board 1/3 of its length, deployment zones, defender must be no more than 2/3rd of attacker's points value, 2 loot counters per 100 points etc. etc.
I'm largely basing this off how Mars Attacks was handled, though!
I actually don't much care about the mat size, if the play area size is thoughtfully tailored to the game. I don't think the cost for the pack is especially high (although will be much better with cars), and I'm glad that something fundamentally not required isn't contributing to shipping costs of the main pledge. Good lord, Deadzone must have eaten them alive!
Shipping costs (x2 for the two 'waves') look to be the boogyman here.
Especailly what we're starting to hear about Warpath shipping costs.
I can see this one slowing down and even backpedaling a bit more as people begin to think the 'value' isn't here and/or 'waiting for retail' is a better option.
Seeing red on those charts, even though it is likely temporary, is not a good sign.
No matter how many times Mantic tries to spin the 'value' and how many fans parrot the spin, too many folks can look at the prices Mantic products actually get when sold retail and can see postage making the 'value' even worse.
I do think the initial offering had too little included to justify the premium price, and they are not really caught up yet.
There is a big difference between MSRP and retail prices, and when you consider pledgers won't even get the retail packaging for most of what the pledge consists of, using MSRP as the correct 'value' makes even less sense. A lot of collectors are going to want the packaging. And the packaging makes up part of MSRP and retail costs, so delivering without needs to take that into account when judging 'value'.
Barely a week in and already losing backers... Anyone remember at which point it happened for the MAKS? Bit later, right? If so, this doesnt exactly look great...
Mars Attacks, and DBX, suffered from the fairly massive Kickstarter flaw of having multiple limited pledges! So even people like myself, who were interested and ended up spending a decent amount on the project, pledged for multiple levels using different accounts and cancelled one of those partway through the project. It doesn't take many $150-$375 pledges to be dropped to both cause a big dent in the total, and to then cause more people to pull out because they feel the project is failing.
I'm not saying that losing backers isn't a concern for this project though! Just that a mass desertion is less likely. And I agree that more value both surely can be, and needs to be, demonstrated.
Shipping is an issue, in part because it is an unknown cost.
When originally asked about rubber mats, Mantic claimed they were too expensive to ship. Now they are offered with unknown shipping. And Mantic has assigned a $30 value to each, and we KNOW that is bull gak because we can buy their current mats for $20 a pop and not pay shipping in many cases. So offering them to me at $20 a pop if I get both, and adding in a as yet to be determined shipping cost, is NOT really doing me many favors. It sure as gak is not better than 25% off retail.
Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.
The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.
Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.
The issue isnt that the mats are going to be sold for that price, its that the (larger!) MA mats cost 10$ less than the retail price these ones are supoosed to be sold at. So youre getting a better price on something that just had its price increased by 50%... if that makes sense?
That said, getting the mats seems like a bad idea anyway. Nothing exclusive in there, ships in second wave (so itd double your basic shipping costs), and youll most likely get everything cheaper at retail anyway...
Black Nexus wrote: I don't buy the free shipping thing, CMON's kickstarters all make you pay shipping and you used to get it there. Shouldn't be an issue.
The discount is better than 25% off retail too, it's already a better deal than you'd get from Miniature Market and there are exclusives.
Um, Miniature Market often discounts Mantic stuff much greater than 25%. Examples:
Sure, the standard discount is 25-30% but they offer $5.95 flat-rate shipping or free if you order $99 or more vs the insane shipping prices from the UK that backers are reporting.
Yeah, if it's any good, I'll get it at clearance next year from Miniature Market.
Black Nexus wrote: Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.
The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.
Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.
Mantic wrote:Note that shipping charges above are estimates and are subject to change.
So, if the estimate holds true, $48 for two mats, that I can get two bigger Mars Attacks mats for $40 shipped...
Yeah, not much of a discount there.
MSRP does not equal retail price. Especially for Mantic.
Black Nexus wrote: Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.
The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.
Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.
Mantic wrote:Note that shipping charges above are estimates and are subject to change.
So, if the estimate holds true, $48 for two mats, that I can get two bigger Mars Attacks mats for $40 shipped...
Yeah, not much of a discount there.
MSRP does not equal retail price. Especially for Mantic.
It ain't $48 for 2 mats. it's $48 for 2 mats and scenery, which would be 55-60 bucks... online discounter may charge a discounted price for it, but it still stems from MSRP and it's still cheaper.
Early reports have the WARPATH shipping coming in much higher than anticipated.
That + rather dubious 'value' at the start for the price + some rather sub-par/lack-luster sculpts + Mantic's spotty quality record + ability to get Mantic stuff cheaper at discounted retail = The Walking Dead All Out War Kickstarter not moving as quickly as many had anticipated.
Again, early days and all that, but more time will 'help' some things (number of miniatures, 'value', etc.) and not others (quality, shipping charges, discounted retail pricing, etc.).
On the Warpath PM, I ordered a limited number of sprues, which based on previous experience with Mantic should fit into a media mail box for hardcover books, or something similar. Mantic charged $20 for shipping. Actual books only cost 4 or 5 bucks to ship from the UK. I've had similar sized purchases shipped from Japan for less than 5 bucks. It's ridiculous.
And pretending that Mantic's suggested retail price reflects the actual value of their products demeans us all. We all see what they sell for, or even don't sell for, when the Invisible Hand of Miniature Market sets the prices.
@Black Nexus, $8 shipping isn't terrible, but the fact that they are not able to stick to their shipping estimates in their other campaigns has us concerned. That along with the fact that we are paying well in advance for the items, and Mantic has a history of changing materials along the process means we might wind up with rubber (from car tires) mats. Waiting for retail is a much safer bet on most things, on Mantic items it is the only sure way to see what you are paying for. Also the lack of tracking that has been on packages when they do ship is stupid. Mantic wants to keep losing packages and having to reship? They need to find better ways of doing their business, cause GW is striking back with their new CEO and bundle deals., They are bringing the fight back to Mantic.
Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?
Let's go pop over to MiniatureMarket and pick up some Kings Of War, Mars Attacks, or Warpath ... Oh wait you can't.
Miniatures Market gets whatever Mantic Product is new and discounts it 20%. Then, when the initial rush dies down, they increase the discount to clear out remaining stock, and stop carrying it.
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If you wait until the backers have their stuff, when Miniatures Market gets stocked, catch all the stuff you want while it's in stock, and you are willing to go without the kickstarter exclusives and freebies, you can save 20% + shipping.
The Warstore has a pretty broad range of Kings of War stuff at 20% off, including the army sets. Availability is a bit spotty, but such is the case right now with KOW. Flat shipping of $7.
In this article we take a look at the basic mechanics behind The Walking Dead: All Out War miniatures game. Studio Manager Stewart Gibbs tells you more.
One of the greatest things about The Walking Dead is how it’s a zombie story that’s not really about the zombies. The Walking Dead is about the characters and their desperate struggle for survival, and each and every one is given such depth that you can empathise with the tough decisions they have to make. It’s those decisions that we wanted to capture in game form.
The Walking Dead: All Out War is all about survival, but with the state of the world post-apocalypse, survival isn’t all that easy. We have striven to create a game where the tension is always rising, forcing the players to be smart, creative, or just reckless in order to stay alive. It’s kill or be killed. We also wanted to include some typical war-gaming elements to properly engage those who want more than a board game experience.
So, how do you win a game of All Out War? The All Out War expansions will have a series of narrative scenarios allowing you to play out the events that unfolded in the comics – Rick and Glenn’s journey into Atlanta to find guns, the opening of Hershel’s barn, all the way through to the Governor’s assault on the prison. You can play these with the characters from the story or alternatively swap them out for characters of your choice – what if Michonne turned up early, or Shane survived to join the war against Woodbury?
Outside of the narrative, the standard scenario for the game represents a supply run made by members of your group, with the objective being to collect supplies from locations around the board – stashes of food, clothing, ammunition, fuel, medicine, and so on. However, you won’t be the only one searching – there will be a rival group trying to get there first. The winner is the player who collects the most supplies, but to do that you will need to navigate the ever-present threat of the Walkers and outwit your opponent.
The standard game also presents the opportunity to build up your group in your own way, with a wide selection of characters and equipment suited to different playstyles. The characters and equipment are all presented on cards containing a points value and all of their rules, allowing for simple group-building and making it easy to expand the range in the future.
As time goes on, more clearly defined “factions” will enter the game, but even now, the limits on constructing your group are fairly minimal – new people aren’t always friendly at first, and do tend to switch allegiance from time to time! You don’t have to stick strictly to the alliances seen in the story – there are many points at which the tide could have turned and friend fights friend to survive!
Groups are built around a Leader. This can be any character, but some have special abilities that apply when they are in charge, and can affect the playstyle of your group. A group built around Rick will be more tactical and cautious, whereas a group built around Shane may be more aggressive. Playing the two groups against each other will make for an interesting game. Lots of characters in the game are “neutral” (Derek, Liam, Patrick and Sandra for example) and can be used in any group, so it’s easy to come up with different group combinations, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.
Now you know how to put a group together, let’s look at the main challenge you will face in the game – Threat. Threat is a measure of how tense the atmosphere is – how scared your characters are, how pressured they feel, and how riled up the Walkers have become. The game includes a Threat Tracker, which is placed beside the board and moved up and down depending on the events in the game – gunshots, surprise Walker attacks, getting into melee, and so on.
Every character has a Nerve level, representing their ability to remain calm under such pressure. Once the Threat reaches their Nerve, they may Panic, with results such as screaming in fear, running away, hiding, or even going berserk! If that wasn’t enough, the higher the threat, the more the Walkers will take notice of the Survivors and attack in large numbers. Threat also serves as the game’s time limit – once it hits maximum it’s game over. A clever player may try to push it up to end the game while they’re ahead, while their opponent tries to reduce it to regain the advantage. Managing the Threat is a hugely important part of the game.
As Mantic fans will appreciate, the core mechanics behind the game have been kept as simple as possible, reducing the learning curve while allowing players to spend their time devising cunning tactics rather than looking up rules.
The game uses alternate activation, with Survivors taking turns making various actions. Each can make two different choices, with options such as moving, shooting, searching, hiding and making noise to draw a Walker close. Melee is not an action in its own right, and is instead completed all at once later in the turn, once all the Walkers have joined in!
Shooting and Melee are carried out using simple opposed rolls like DreadBall or Deadzone – the difference in successes equals the damage dealt. These rolls are made with dice designed especially for the game, with varying numbers of successes on the faces and different colours for attacks of different strengths. These custom dice allow for more subtle combinations without complicating the rules or introducing extreme rolls. In addition to a number of successes, some of the faces also have a headshot symbol – vital if you don’t want the Walkers to get back up again…
The colours are used for the stats in the game – Rick’s Survivor card shows a white dice symbol for melee, whereas a Walker has a red dice symbol – these show which dice to roll for an attack. Equipment cards can add extra dice to a Survivor’s rolls as well.
TWD-charactercards
So that’s how Survivors work, but what about Walkers? All Out War uses a unique AI system to move the Walkers, so you don’t need a player to control them. This system moves them in three different ways:
NOISE and MAYHEM. Just as you will have seen from the story, your life can depend on staying quiet and still, and the game is no different. Certain actions in the game can’t be done quietly, and taking them will draw Walkers close. For example, Sneaking (4" move) is silent, but Running (8" move) causes NOISE, meaning that once the action is complete the nearest Walker within 8"will move directly towards the Survivor. Firing a gun on the other hand is much louder, and causes MAYHEM. This works in the same way, but all Walkers within 8" will move towards the survivor.
MAYHEM also increases the Threat level by one, so it’s a dangerous thing to do! Survivors can also choose to make
NOISE to direct the Walkers where they want them, and there are other things that cause MAYHEM such as car alarms.
The Kill Zone. After all Survivors have taken their actions, the Kill Zone template (5" diameter) is placed over each Walker on the board. If there is a survivor within range, the Walker will move into melee with it immediately. It’s wise to give Walkers a wide berth.
The Event Cards. These are drawn every turn after checking the Kill Zones. Each will have a list of effects that must be carried out immediately. Usually these will involve moving Walkers or bringing new Walkers onto the board in different ways, but there are some special events – things like car alarms and thunderstorms. In most cases the players take it in turns to move the Walkers in a direction of their choice, but some cards will specify a direction. The effects of the cards vary depending on the Threat Level – at Low Threat a card may move only a few Walkers, but at High Threat every Walker on the board could move. Players need to bear this in mind when positioning their Survivors – it can be hard to judge where nearby Walkers will end up, especially as the cards often increase the Threat Level themselves.
One advantage that the Survivors have is that Walker movement is predictable. They always move in straight lines, and they always move at a Shamble (6"). They must stop when they reach a piece of scenery and cannot walk around it until the next time they move. Players can use this knowledge to their advantage – using barricades to keep Walkers at bay while they shoot their guns, or even getting behind the opponent’s models and drawing the Walkers directly into them. Many a playtest game has been won not by attacking the opposing group, but by letting the Walkers do the job for you! Walkers are particularly dangerous when in numbers as they get extra dice for outnumbering, so drawing a group of them onto an opponent spells certain doom.
That’s pretty much it for the core mechanics. We’ll be getting the playtest rules up shortly so you can look at everything in more detail. Everything you need to play will be included, but there is more to come before the game goes to print. We will still be adding sections on basic terrain types (elevated positions, buildings, etc) and some rules for simple character generation and campaign games to keep you playing long into the future!
I really like the idea of Nerve and the noise system. And seeing how the game will benefit from a tight play area, although maybe that area could be made larger with mroe scenery and zombies.
Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?
Let's go pop over to MiniatureMarket and pick up some Kings Of War, Mars Attacks, or Warpath ... Oh wait you can't.
Miniatures Market gets whatever Mantic Product is new and discounts it 20%. Then, when the initial rush dies down, they increase the discount to clear out remaining stock, and stop carrying it.
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If you wait until the backers have their stuff, when Miniatures Market gets stocked, catch all the stuff you want while it's in stock, and you are willing to go without the kickstarter exclusives and freebies, you can save 20% + shipping.
It's not just MM. My local FLGS has to clearance out their Mantic stock whenever they're foolish enough to order a bunch, too. Other sites have decent discounts...or don't sell their product. Places that still stock Mantic and charge MSRP are places that don't sell Mantic. There are also plenty of former backers willing to trade or sell their rewards to the recipient's advantage. Frankly, there is no good reason to spend anywhere near MSRP on Mantic or to pretend that the product line in this KS is somehow different than Mantic's other ranges. The minis are just not worth what Mantic claims they are, and they will only depreciate in value once released.
I used to be a huge supporter of Mantic. Now, I just feel so burned by them that I can't be charitable towards their ever-more-cynical Kickstarter machine.
YumaStout wrote: I like this theme but we have a lot of miniatures and other stuff to use them in our tables. Do I need interested in this project if we use 28mm miniatures?
FAQ says, "The miniatures are 30mm scale, with the average adult character standing approximately 1.5” inches tall." I would guess that this means they're compatible with so-called 28mm miniatures (which would mean 30mm if they're "heroic" scale).
Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?
They may not effect the whole Mantic market, but they sure do effect a huge portion of the market that Mantic is after. Mantic would be lucky IF they could get MM to be their US distributor, but it's not going to happen.
Oddly enough, my local shop started stocking the new post-KS Kings of War releases, and they're actually selling.
The other semi-local shop that I'm pretty sure is the same one Bob is referencing does in fact clear out the *older* Mantic stock whenever it turns up. I haven't seen anything post Deadzone releases end up getting clearanced.
I don't think I've seen any of their board games end up on clearance either in a physical store.
Project Pandora was cleared out a while ago. Dreadball stuff just sits there like they forgot it exists, the same way they clearanced some of their AT-43 and forgot about other boxes that were on a different aisle.
Theophony wrote: @Black Nexus, $8 shipping isn't terrible, but the fact that they are not able to stick to their shipping estimates in their other campaigns has us concerned.
fwiw, USPS has increases mail rates *twice* in the last year, with couriers increasing accordingly. CMON doubled its shipping estimate to the west coast for the Zombicide: Black Plague Knight (highest) pledge level.
I'm not sure where to stand on the whole "Kickstarters must offer the deepest discount you will ever encounter" debate! Part of me thinks "We're acting both as an interest-free advance loan AND buying direct like a wholesaler, why shouldn't we get cheaper than wholesaler prices?". Another part of me thinks "There are a number of Kickstarters that have such a stark value difference between the Kickstarter and retail that I will never, ever buy them at retail because it feels like I'm wasting money. That can't make retailers happy.".
The more practical part of my brain thinks "If I was a business, and was using Kickstarter partly as a marketing drive/community creation for my upcoming project, I would want to make sure that my most ardent fans/supporters were contributing to my profit margin rather than selling them everything at cost."
But anyway, we know that Mantic didn't actually want to release the mats add-on, was actively advising people to pick them up at retail, so people probably should (or buy an equivalent)! Not seeing a massive issue on that specific topic.
They have approval to release the demo rules today which will hopefully give a clear idea on the quality of the game. Also expansion is coming but sounds like may be a stretch goal rather than addon (they could really do with a proper addon as well).
It does sound like the first expansion would be a free stretch goal which would be an extra 4 characters, 2 walkers, map, mission book and cards which would go a long way to make the pledge level a little nicer butstill a bit short of good value. That is also dependent of them having all the items in the expansion as standard without having fake stretch goals.
Theophony wrote: @Black Nexus, $8 shipping isn't terrible, but the fact that they are not able to stick to their shipping estimates in their other campaigns has us concerned.
fwiw, USPS has increases mail rates *twice* in the last year, with couriers increasing accordingly. CMON doubled its shipping estimate to the west coast for the Zombicide: Black Plague Knight (highest) pledge level.
CMoN also delivered alot more than expected at the beginning of the campaign. Basically they blew up so much and there is so much content that the package is larger than they expected. Combine this with them shipping in 2 waves (a little tin foil hatish, but I believe they knew they were doing 2 waves from the get go, so they charged more in shipping to cover both waves), and that explains their higher shipping costs. Reasonable shipping is fine, but when packages start costing more to ship than the pledges, then the discounts have to become better, or the manufacturer needs to just pony up the cash and develop these on their own.
People don't want us to say that kickstarter is a preorder system, but when all the contents are made and it would hit the market anyway, then what would you really call it? Yes it gets the exposure out there and helps small companies to expand quicker without deficit financing, but in the end if they were going to manufacture a product either way it is preordering.
Edit: OH, $265K finally hit. I think someone says that brings us up to 31 models, plus the scenic elements (6 barricades, 10 loot counters) so 47 pieces for $125.....
Edit Again: I was just thinking, why would anyone buy the scenery add on fo $40, especially if they don't want the small mats. If anything buy a second pledge, you'll get the same loot counters, barricades (and they will come in wave 1 instead of wave 2), plus double the number of walkers and exclusives. Should be able to sell/trade off the exclusives later to make some cash back. Plus you'll get more maps (paper, but they really aren't usefull if your going to play bigger games anyway.
Aeneades wrote: It does sound like the first expansion would be a free stretch goal which would be an extra 4 characters, 2 walkers, map, mission book and cards which would go a long way to make the pledge level a little nicer butstill a bit short of good value. That is also dependent of them having all the items in the expansion as standard without having fake stretch goals.
The problem with this is that there're only 12 walkers to the 9 characters in the main box. When in comic book do you see so few walkers? I know there's a few places but..... Atlanta, a city filled with zombies has an expansion that only adds 2 walkers but 4 characters......yeah, there is 1 more zombie than character.
I get that zombies are just drawn by noise but when they do come, there would need to be a lot of them, because that's how it works. This would force a choice on players to continue attacking each other, play the avoid and regroup game, or attack the zombies.
agnosto wrote: The problem with this is that there're only 12 walkers to the 9 characters in the main box. When in comic book do you see so few walkers? I know there's a few places but..... Atlanta, a city filled with zombies has an expansion that only adds 2 walkers but 4 characters......yeah, there is 1 more zombie than character.
Well there was that period of about 2 years in the comics where nobody got killed by a zombie - it was even addressed by Kirkman in the comments at the end of one issue with something along the lines of 'oh yeah, it has been quite some time!'
Spoiler:
The whole Alexandria arc had very few zombies actually killing people for a long time until all out war got fully underway.
agnosto wrote: The problem with this is that there're only 12 walkers to the 9 characters in the main box. When in comic book do you see so few walkers? I know there's a few places but..... Atlanta, a city filled with zombies has an expansion that only adds 2 walkers but 4 characters......yeah, there is 1 more zombie than character.
Well there was that period of about 2 years in the comics where nobody got killed by a zombie - it was even addressed by Kirkman in the comments at the end of one issue with something along the lines of 'oh yeah, it has been quite some time!'
Spoiler:
The whole Alexandria arc had very few zombies actually killing people for a long time until all out war got fully underway.
Good point. I haven't reached that point in the comendiums yet. Considering the title of this Kickstarter and the like title in the comics, you'd think there would be more zombies...
We will be up to 22 once the next stretch goal is unlocked which sounds like it will be enough for majority of games.
They are planning some different varieties of zombies later on in the campaign which will have different rules. The main ones they have mentioned are zombies in prison riot gear so much more resisitant to damage than your usual zombie. It was hoping the crawlers would be a sub category of zombie with their own rules but given they already added one to the Atlanta expansion it doesn't look likely.
I used to be a huge supporter of Mantic. Now, I just feel so burned by them that I can't be charitable towards their ever-more-cynical Kickstarter machine.
Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
On a positive note, it's good that their indicating during which Wave of shipping things will arrive.
On the negative, what happens when the inevitable delay arises and something gets bumped to Wave 2 that was originally slated for 1? Do you have to pay or do they pony up?
Why are people clammering for so many zombies?
If there was a horde, the characters would just do a runner and leave the area asap.
If there's only a few zombies, then the characters take the risk to get the supplies and maybe have to fight a few zombies.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
Only three (four if you count the little girl in the latest update) of the living people looks like they're in distress and one of them is armed with a knife.
That's hardly most characters looking helpless and in the process of dying
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
Yeah, not crazy about Sophia and Carl being in a wargame. Yes, war is hell and all of that but that doesn't mean I want to pay money to, in essence, kill kids. Alternatively, I suppose that you could choose not to play with the kid models.
Still not up on how you can play with unarmed survivors. I generally like my fighters to look like they're at least able to fight.
According to the Kickstarter page, the core pledge (i.e. the $125 level) is always going to be a single package that is Wave 1. If something gets delayed in Wave 1, the entire thing would then be delayed. Wave 2 is only relevant if you purchase add-ons, and will contain all add-ons - if anything gets delayed, same deal.
I...actually quite like the idea of a skirmish game where you are motivated to take weaker members of a group so that they can power up other members when they die! Especially because the opponent knows this, so is unlikely to take a shot at the kid lest this power you up! But if you expose the kid too much, make them run for a key objective in open view...it might be worth them taking the risk.
Apparently yes, I'm in favour of 28mm children being murdered and eaten.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Why are people clammering for so many zombies?
If there was a horde, the characters would just do a runner and leave the area asap.
If there's only a few zombies, then the characters take the risk to get the supplies and maybe have to fight a few zombies.
Because they often have to fight in the comic in order to run off. I mean, if they're selling this to fans of the comics, there should at least be enough zombies to make them an issue rather than not.
Yeah, but the rules incentivize getting the kids killed as their death is a plus up for another character.
Big difference between treating them as a resource to protect and putting them into danger to get a bonus for another character once the kid gets capped.
CptJake wrote: Yeah, but the rules incentivize getting the kids killed as their death is a plus up for another character.
Big difference between treating them as a resource to protect and putting them into danger to get a bonus for another character once the kid gets capped.
To clarify, I'm not saying that anyone else is a bad person for wanting to play a game where kids get killed. People like different things, of course. I just personally don't find that aspect very appealing. I also don't like the look of many of these miniatures in general, especially the ones that look completely useless and about to die. In general, though I was excited about this game when it was announced, pretty much every new piece of information I get makes it sound worse and worse to me.
'About to die' or unarmed and (in my opinion) useless pose for Liam, Donna, Lori, Amy, Carol, Sophia, and to a lesser extent (at least appearing to be in an attempt to defend himself as he dies) Jim.
So really you have 6-7 of the total characters so far in poses I don't think are very good for a skirmish game. I know others think they are fine, but that is a big portion of the available survivors.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
Yeah, not crazy about Sophia and Carl being in a wargame. Yes, war is hell and all of that but that doesn't mean I want to pay money to, in essence, kill kids. Alternatively, I suppose that you could choose not to play with the kid models.
Still not up on how you can play with unarmed survivors. I generally like my fighters to look like they're at least able to fight.
The Kids do end up in some very bad situations in the comics as time goes on and I think they do need to be represented in some way in the game because of this. Having kids in a war game is not to everyones taste but I think it would due to the source material it is essential in this instance.
I am not a fan of the screaming in terror figures though. I understand for Sophia as she is unlikely to be armed at this stage (and having her represented as a runner character fits that nicely) but the adults in scared poses isn't good. Carol I think is fine as she is as she does have a knife which would tie into her abilities early in the comic timeline.
The inclusion of kid figures is not the issue in my mind, it is making it a Good Thing for the owning player to get those kids killed that is the issue.
overtyrant wrote: But it's cool incentivizing players to kill women and men?
Honestly? In a skirmish game it is cool to incentivize players to keep as many of their figures alive as possible.
But that may just be me.
When ever you are incentivized to get any members of your own team killed, especially the weakest/most vulnerable, there is a problem in my opinion.
And again, it seems contrary to the source material.
I don't think there is an incentive to get a member of your own team killed, I see it as more a deterrent to kill them for your opponent. I think this fits with the source material as any aggression towards children is usually the last resort.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CptJake wrote: The inclusion of kid figures is not the issue in my mind, it is making it a Good Thing for the owning player to get those kids killed that is the issue.
"Hey, I got Sophie killed! Now I get a bonus!"
That just doesn't sit well with me.
I think any bonus you get would not make up for the loss of a character able to take objectives.
The funny thing is that in the comic, Carl is actually one of the group's more competent fighters. Considering he also survives multiple shootings, Carl should be one of the game's better characters. There's also the fact that Sophia managed to be one of the last few people in tge original Atlanta group to survive. She doesn't die in the comic. If they manage to throw in Clementine, the kids really ought to have better stats than most of the adults considering what they go through in their respective stories and manage to survive.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
That's a child? I though Warwick Davis was pulling an Eddie Redmayne.
The only 2 sculpts I actually dislike are Liam and Donna as they are clearly one moment away from death. The other unarmed characters look on edge but still seem acceptable as scavengers.
Barzam wrote: The funny thing is that in the comic, Carl is actually one of the group's more competent fighters. Considering he also survives multiple shootings, Carl should be one of the game's better characters. There's also the fact that Sophia managed to be one of the last few people in tge original Atlanta group to survive. She doesn't die in the comic. If they manage to throw in Clementine, the kids really ought to have better stats than most of the adults considering what they go through in their respective stories and manage to survive.
Indeed Carl should kick ass - Sophia should be good at just not dying
overtyrant wrote: But it's cool incentivizing players to kill women and men?
Honestly? In a skirmish game it is cool to incentivize players to keep as many of their figures alive as possible.
But that may just be me.
When ever you are incentivized to get any members of your own team killed, especially the weakest/most vulnerable, there is a problem in my opinion.
And again, it seems contrary to the source material.
I don't think there is an incentive to get a member of your own team killed, I see it as more a deterrent to kill them for your opponent. I think this fits with the source material as any aggression towards children is usually the last resort.
When the zombies are run by an AI, the other player isn't going to stop you from running Sophie into a rotter so that Carol gets her bonus to cap an opponent. I don't think that fits with the source material. I guess we need to just agree to disagree.
CptJake wrote: The inclusion of kid figures is not the issue in my mind, it is making it a Good Thing for the owning player to get those kids killed that is the issue.
"Hey, I got Sophie killed! Now I get a bonus!"
That just doesn't sit well with me.
I agree. Not because it's immoral, but because the rules of any game should reward strategies that make sense either by real life logic or according to genre conventions, and should punish strategies that do not make sense according to either. Deliberately allowing your children to be eaten by zombies is stupid both by real life logic and by zombie movie logic, and so it should be equally stupid by zombie game logic.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
Yeah, not crazy about Sophia and Carl being in a wargame. Yes, war is hell and all of that but that doesn't mean I want to pay money to, in essence, kill kids. Alternatively, I suppose that you could choose not to play with the kid models.
Still not up on how you can play with unarmed survivors. I generally like my fighters to look like they're at least able to fight.
You do understand you are playing a game, right?
Sure but I, personally, find some subject matter distasteful to one extent or another. I don't play games where women are raped either but I also don't cast judgement on those who enjoy such things.
As CptJake already pointed out, the rules as they stand actually encourage the death of innocent children so, yeah, not interested but there will be people who are happy to do so.
Actually, I think (as someone who didnt watch the show or read the comics) that having the kids confer bonuses upon death is a great way to implement some meta rules: BAsically, your opponent doesnt want to kill children needlessly (the actual player because itd confer a bonus, in-game because your guys might not want to kill children). You want your kid to get killed (this would represent children taking stupid risks because they dont know any better). So its a pretty nifty way to model *two* things thatd be hard to do any other way (apart from taking away player control entirely).
Albino Squirrel wrote: Who wants to play a game where most of the characters you are playing look like helpless people in the process of dying? And you also get to try to murder children, so there's that.
That's a child? I though Warwick Davis was pulling an Eddie Redmayne.
I had to google Eddie Redmayne. And I still have no idea who he is. Are you trying to be obscure?
Now a Willow game is I'd be interested in. When is someone going to do that one? Then we can get a Warwick Davis miniature.
CptJake wrote: The inclusion of kid figures is not the issue in my mind, it is making it a Good Thing for the owning player to get those kids killed that is the issue.
"Hey, I got Sophie killed! Now I get a bonus!"
That just doesn't sit well with me.
I agree. Not because it's immoral, but because the rules of any game should reward strategies that make sense either by real life logic or according to genre conventions, and should punish strategies that do not make sense according to either. Deliberately allowing your children to be eaten by zombies is stupid both by real life logic and by zombie movie logic, and so it should be equally stupid by zombie game logic.
Well there goes my tournament strategy . Carol with as many kids as I can take. I was going to have her tooling around in the Oscar Meyers Hot dog van ringing the bell for all the Zombies and tossing kids out the door like a clearance sale.
But seriously, if there ever became a tournament for this game that rule would have to get fixed or she would lose the model for this game and all subsequent games to stop abuse......Child abuse
Tyr13 wrote: Actually, I think (as someone who didnt watch the show or read the comics) that having the kids confer bonuses upon death is a great way to implement some meta rules: BAsically, your opponent doesnt want to kill children needlessly (the actual player because itd confer a bonus, in-game because your guys might not want to kill children). You want your kid to get killed (this would represent children taking stupid risks because they dont know any better). So its a pretty nifty way to model *two* things thatd be hard to do any other way (apart from taking away player control entirely).
So yeah. Good idea, imo.
Except you do not need to rely on your opponent to cap the kid. You run it into an AI controlled zombie.
Nope, thats the "stupid kid" part. Obviously, youd want to have some sort of rule that *also* encourages you to keep them alive. Maybe itd be enough to make every model valuable, maybe a victory points thing could work. Its all about balancing things.
Man, it really makes me wish I could think of a metaphor for something that, you know, doesn't function any more yet keeps up the pretense by shambling on. Something that keeps going long after it should have stopped. Anyone got any ideas?
Yep. I also *think* it didn't have any competition at the time, and/or was the first non-deformed generic fantasy dungeoncrawler boardgame for awhile. Some publicity from BGG, Jake Thorton's credentials, and that DS was based on an existing Mantic game, which wasn't too bad. Mantic wargamers, of course, were also picking up models for their KoW armies.
As for kids... Well, go look up what happened to Dale and Donna's two boys and what Carl had to do.
Dungeon Saga hooked the board game KS crowd with over 60 unique scenarios to play, rules for co-op, solo or pvp, and around 70 minis for $100 along with tiles and really good 3D terrain. It's a really solid game. Only went in for $100 during the KS and regretted it, will be buying all the expansions at retail now that I've played it a bunch. Got a cheap copy of SDE recently, and while its cute and fun, it has more complex rules and less depth than Dungeon Saga.
TWD is PvP, wargamers-only with a higher price point, and based around a specific IP, although not in its most valuable form (TV show licence).
It's hard to quantify, but there was a "buzz" around the DSKS, lots of facebook chatter about custom dungeon builds, people playtesting the demo scenario etc. Hasn't happened here, the timing for the crucial boardgame KS backer to take a look at it has passed (day 1-2). The next opportunity for the bulk of people to take a look will be in the last 3 days if it looks like a good deal by then.
The show coming back on air next week will give a small boost to the backer numbers too.
For those saying players will want to kill off their own child gang members, the playtest rules have stat cards for Rick and Carl. The bonus you get for the death of Carl is minimal compared to the benefit of having Carl alive - death of Carl gives Rick a rookie die added to his melee dice pool where as a living Carl has a rookie die for melee and ranged combat. Carl also has a decent sized health pool and defence (matches 3 of the 4 members of opposing gang) so he wont be easy to sacrifice.
CptJake wrote: Did Dale and/or Donna send them into a zombie horde to sacrifice them for their own benefit?
NO. What I *AM* saying is that the comics didn't pull any punches with the kids, either.
If you don't like kids getting hurt in a game, there are plenty of skirmish games that don't have kids in it. I *think* you can play TWD without using the kid miniatures, but, who knows, maybe a scenario will have them as an objective.
I'm too lazy to read the update. Rick's card uses the word, "casualty" and, in the TWD comics, you didn't have to die to be a casualty. Carl was shot in the comics, and he didn't die or became a "sacrifice". He *certainly* was a casualty, unable to fight, afterwards.
Frankly, I think you're overreacting. We don't (yet) have gameplay involving the children figures. Once we do, THEN you can flame all you want.
ced1106 wrote: Frankly, I think you're overreacting. We don't (yet) have gameplay involving the children figures. Once we do, THEN you can flame all you want.
You were doing fine until this. The word "overreact" is a very judgmental word, and it's one that will trigger a defense. I would avoid using it, especially since you really don't mean over reacting, but rather reacting too quickly.
I think that given that children's cards have rules, including rules for when they die, it's pretty likely they'll be an element of game play.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Man, it really makes me wish I could think of a metaphor for something that, you know, doesn't function any more yet keeps up the pretense by shambling on. Something that keeps going long after it should have stopped. Anyone got any ideas?
Id call it Bobtheinquisitor , just kidding.........or am I????
I think they'll drag it out till Sunday when the new season hits, but I too am holding an EB that will most likely get dropped. I'm more tempted by the TMNT Kickstarter, but those sculpts look sad.
Frankly, I think you're overreacting. We don't (yet) have gameplay involving the children figures. Once we do, THEN you can flame all you want.
But we do have Mantic's words:
Carol is a new support character for your group. She’s rather unstable to begin with and if Sophia is in her group and killed, she gains extra melee dice too.
And Rick's card shows he does about the same thing if Carl gets capped.
I've stated they give an incentive to have the kid get killed, am I wrong?
But the question is do you want that character to get into melee with Zombies? And is it worth all the inherent negatives of losing a character, whatever they may be?
To give a real world example, if my girlfriend was to die, my grocery bills would be less. Woooo!
But that 1 positive wouldn't outweigh the many negatives that came along with it.
Losing the child may increase the damage output of one of the other characters as they are stricken with rage and grief, but it is worth not being able to use that character to achieve objectives and/or retrieve supplies?
Aeneades wrote: For those saying players will want to kill off their own child gang members, the playtest rules have stat cards for Rick and Carl. The bonus you get for the death of Carl is minimal compared to the benefit of having Carl alive - death of Carl gives Rick a rookie die added to his melee dice pool where as a living Carl has a rookie die for melee and ranged combat. Carl also has a decent sized health pool and defence (matches 3 of the 4 members of opposing gang) so he wont be easy to sacrifice.
Concept wise, I like the idea of the adults getting enraged when a child under their care dies. It's innovative and it's fits the genre.
We are talking about a game where the last stragling survivors of an apocalypse are killing each other over the scraps left over from better times. It's dark subject matter to begin with.
There are people who will object to simulated violence against imaginary children in a fictional scenario and this, perhaps, is not the game for them. They probably wouldn't like the comic the game is based on either, or the Zombie Apocalyspe Genre in general, so I'm not seeing a big conflict of interest here.
Aside from Carl and Sophia, who are both teenagers in the comics now, what other kids would they even bother with ?
It's not like they are going to make 20 children to choose from.
We'll not see Zerg rushes of 15pt children on the tournament scene.
Why do people keep saying this incentivies killing of one of your characters? It doesn't. An extra dice for rick isn't going to outweigh losing character who can fight , shootz move take objectives and be an extra target for things to attack. It might lesen the blow of Carl dying but it doesn't make killing him needlessly a good tactic.
carlos13th wrote: Why do people keep saying this incentivies killing of one of your characters? It doesn't. An extra dice for rick isn't going to outweigh losing character who can fight , shootz move take objectives and be an extra target for things to attack. It might lesen the blow of Carl dying but it doesn't make killing him needlessly a good tactic.
In one off games it could come down to one die, and a situation of wiping out the opponent or taking out a specific opponent could matter more than keeping Carl alive. Sacrifice Carl to make sure I kill the Govenor.....Sure, especially if the game objective is kill the opposing leader. I haven't looked at the rules yet, maybe this weekend, so not sure if there are mission objectives.
The mission object for standard games appear to involve collecting resources so 99% of the time having an extra character who can search for loot is better than an extra weak melee die. You may get bonus points for killing enemy leader but I didn't see that in the released rules (only had quick read so may have missed).
There are also story missions which play out scenarios from the comic which may involve killing an enemy leader but I suspect they will be far between.
People mentioning a "tournament scene" are being extremely optimistic. I can't imagine there being much of a tournament scene for this game. There seems to be only one mission that isn't story/campaign driven. And I doubt the game will be popular enough to support tournaments anyway.
And all the arguments about mechanics are pretty irrelevant to me, when my point was that I'm not interested in playing a game where I'm trying to kill children or other pretty much helpless people. That doesn't sound fun to me.
Not seeing myself staying in this one much longer. There's just not much compelling about this one...and will Mantic please stop saying "yup, good enough" to every single render that crosses their desk.
Same old Mantic story; jump on an EB before fully undertstanding the extent of the KS, then after a few days, try to find a reason to stay in.
carlos13th wrote: Why do people keep saying this incentivies killing of one of your characters? It doesn't. An extra dice for rick isn't going to outweigh losing character who can fight , shootz move take objectives and be an extra target for things to attack. It might lesen the blow of Carl dying but it doesn't make killing him needlessly a good tactic.
In one off games it could come down to one die, and a situation of wiping out the opponent or taking out a specific opponent could matter more than keeping Carl alive. Sacrifice Carl to make sure I kill the Govenor.....Sure, especially if the game objective is kill the opposing leader. I haven't looked at the rules yet, maybe this weekend, so not sure if there are mission objectives.
Rick gets an Orange Melee die if Carl dies.
Rick get Carl's Orange Die to Melee, Orange Die to ranged, plus whatever cards he's using if Carl lives.
As long as you keep Carl with Rick, you are better off with Carl alive in melee.
If Carl has a chance to shoot the target, you are better off with Carl alive in ranged.
If you want to carry additional loot, you are better off with Carl alive.
Sounds like they are making efforts to make the pledge level more appealing again today so I expect they will be adding in a few more extras.
At this point though the campaign has lost all momentum and I think they would be better off cancelling and launching again with the campaign starting with the current stretches already unlocked to make it a much more attractive opening pledge.
Assuming they could actually produce what they wanted for $50k, there is no reason to cancel, they are over 5 times their funding goal! That is massive!
Even the Ninja Turtle game is nowhere near 5 times their funding goal.
I think the main issue with Mantic here is that they assumed this would be a massive hit due to licence alone so they didn't have any sort of contingency plan in place and due to it being a licenced product they have had to run any adjustments through Skybound which has taken days.
With a little more care and value for money this could have been massive. At the current rate it's going to be outperformed by their less well known Mars Attack branded Kickstarter.
It doesn't help that people are rightfully miffed about the dungeon saga woes currently in progress and posting concerns in the comments of this KS. Mantic's constant failure to actually deliver to people exactly what they pay for will continue to eat away at their fan base.
Can't wait for a few sanctimonious Mantic Fans to declare anyone posting info in the comments section about Mantic's failures need to drop their pledge and shut up.
Sarcasm aside, there is clearly a motivation for making the Kickstarter total as high as possible - even if they can produce everything in the initial offering for 50k, that probably isn't enough to be a viable licensed product line. They need money in advance to fill out the line sufficiently, whether that comes from bank loans or Kickstarter, and it comes back to the age-old thing of the latter being interest-free but hopefully also beneficial to the backers. Don't see an issue there.
Re-launching a Kickstarter, especially a reasonably large one, may not always be ideal. People who angrily dismissed the first version are unlikely to show up again, and you risk not retaining all of your existing backers. Plus, your marketing efforts (all of those links in updates of previous Kickstarters, Beasts of War content...) will have been wasted. Not saying its not going to happen, but I imagine the situation would have to be worse than it is.
Sunday/Monday will be the big teller for this game. With TWD returning sunday night there might be a spike in backers, but we will see just how much the IP can really garner on it's own merit. So I expect there to be a slew of new backers asking the same questions "Where's Daryl?" being to top contender. With their announcement of stock shortages for Dungeon Saga and other kickstarter issues (rules still not chosen for Warpath), I don't think a reboot of this one would be wise. At this point ,even if Skybound said they could start over and retry to launch in a month or so, I think that would just add more negative weight to the stone around this ones neck.
I would bet a slew of TV Walking Dead fans pledging because Walking Dead! will end up dropping at some point when they realize their favorite characters won't be in the game.
And honestly, there will be such a tiny portion of the TV viewers Sunday that know what KS is, and not all of them are folks who play games and would buy this. And nothing Sunday is going to point the fans to the Mantic KS. There may be a bump, but I suspect it won't be very big.
I think that they really overestimated the number of wargamers that need more/another zombie game and the number of TWD comic fans interested in getting into wargaming (who already aren't) and the number of board game fans who don't already dislike wargaming. All of the above who actually care about this license. Seems a little too specific a market to expect a runaway success. The number of people who will buy this just because it's TWD and wait months for delivery is quite small I imagine.
I read some of the comment section and one guy asked if there could be a stretch goal if one of the backers got onto "The Talking Dead" and mentioned the kickstarter. I didn't stay around long enough to see the response though, so they might get the word out. We would just have to see if the TV watchers are hardcore enough to buy into something they won't get until later in the year.
Theophony wrote: I read some of the comment section and one guy asked if there could be a stretch goal if one of the backers got onto "The Talking Dead" and mentioned the kickstarter. I didn't stay around long enough to see the response though, so they might get the word out. We would just have to see if the TV watchers are hardcore enough to buy into something they won't get until later in the year.
And something that does not have their favorite characters.
I STRONGLY suspect the calls are screened, no one trying to plug the KS is going to get through anyway.
I think another potential issue is this bit that they posted on their facebook yesterday
Mantic Games
ok, lets start a new thread here...
one of the angles of TWD game we haven't really covered is the collectibility part of the range. Obviously the mins, but actually each pack also comes with more equipment cards - each with its own uique stats - some are seriously hard core, and that allows you to tool up your group as it progresses.This is one of the ways we see how the game will continuosly develop and you can put your own mark on your faction. choose a few differetn characters - and a few different weapons - suddenly a whole different group to fight against. I think this is one of the reasons the pledge will end up being such great value - the amount of different cards, minis as well as the exclusives will give you heaps of choice right from the first few games - it'll be over 6 months before some of that stuff hits retail, so that extra loot will make your games more fun from the get go.
while more content is always cool, they way this sounds raised the spectre of having to carry on buying new 'packs' or ending up being behind in the card power race.... and quite possibly packs you don't really want for the mini
sort of like X-wing but while that can clearly sustain such a sales strategy based on huge interest in the franchise, pretty tight rules and most importantly prepainted cool looking ships
I'm not sure that unpained, smaller minis, based on a franchise with a smaller fan base (and certainly a smaller highly driven fan base) will work as well.
Good point. I think it is exacerbated by folks asking if we will get multiples of various weapon cards because maybe they'll want to have more than one shotgun in their group (for example), and Mantic has ducked that question each time.
So an XWing model of collection, card distribution.....yeah, Mantic doesn't compare favorably with FFG on their games and TWD may be popular but Star Wars it ain't.
So "hard core" equipment cards that only come in certain packs, which KS backers get access to before anyone else, which will make games "more fun from the get go".
Basically "back the KS and get OP loot before retail plebs so you can grind their nose into the dirt easier"?
Nostromodamus wrote: So "hard core" equipment cards that only come in certain packs, which KS backers get access to before anyone else, which will make games "more fun from the get go".
Basically "back the KS and get OP loot before retail plebs so you can grind their nose into the dirt easier"?
Or am I being too cynical?
Too cynical would be that you ordered it through kickstarter for those reasons, but the the order gets lost/ back ordered and retail gets it before you for cheaper than you paid for it with shipping factored in and the game is pronounced dead before you can get to play your first game.
Produce and release the game with enough content so people will feel it is worth buying and then expand from that. Kickstarter is probably not the proper platform to advertise to most of the TWD fans anyway. Comic books, affiliated websites, gaming communities - after you have made a product to offer.
I think "get the edge over tournament players" is about the least charitable interpretation of that comment possible, though! Surely it's no different from saying "we're delivering two expansions with your Kickstarter pledge before they hit retail, so you have more options right from the start"? The incentive is getting more stuff early, not having an advantage. People with a Kickstarter pledge are going to have enough models to populate a 2-player game anyway.
I agree that the distribution of item cards is currently not exactly generous. You'd expect to have enough generic equipment in the base game to equip your survivor's group with an array of different standard options, and gear with characters could be the more specialist or character-specific stuff. But you get...8.
The "collectible" nature of the cards is somewhat off-putting, can see myself ignoring that element of the game, and simply proxying the cards.
It's a wargame, not a CCG, I'm not buying a $20 booster to get a second copy of a "rare" equipment card. Cards are gameplay aids, not gameplay elements.
This is an example of why stat cards can be a bad thing, as convenient as they are for gameplay, they shouldn't be the only source of the rules, the book should list a table of weapons with their stats and special rules too, or a free .pdf of the cards should be made available.
I guess the main reason it is done is to prevent people from playing the game using miniatures produced by other companies, since you won't get the rules if you don't buy that specific mini.
I guess the main reason it is done is to prevent people from playing the game using miniatures produced by other companies, since you won't get the rules if you don't buy that specific mini.
Mantic sems to not want to provide 'generic' survivor cards, which is another indicator they want players to use Mantic figures.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone on LAF made up these using Warlord (ex-Wargames Factory) Survivor sprues:
The Greene Farm Expansion and the second phase of miniature boosters are a new-but-unplanned addition to the Something to Fear pledge level. They were originally intended to be an add-on, and as such will take longer to ship. They will come in a second wave package. We will not charge a second shipping fee for this, though there will be a slight increase to the Shipping Wave 1 fee, this has been updated on the front page.
This also has the added benefit in that we are also getting rid of the Shipping Wave 2 shipping costs entirely – they’ve now been removed from the front page. So if you’ve pledged for a Scenery Booster you no longer have any extra shipping to pay on the pledge manager
And that goes the same for any future expansion add-on too! ☺ Just one shipping fee to cover everything.
Took them awhile to realise that (potential) backers feel that the initial offering was gak ful and that their wave postage costs being an unknown quantity were hurting them. Of course, Shipping costs on WP aren't helping them, either.
Took them awhile to realise that (potential) backers feel that the initial offering was gak ful and that their wave postage costs being an unknown quantity were hurting them. Of course, Shipping costs on WP aren't helping them, either.
Wave 2 shipping was on the front page since the add-on was up. It wasn't an unknown...
Yep shipping has increased by 50%
They are giving an expansion that's retailing for $40 for free. More than makes up for the $4 shipping increase that also covers shipping of any future add-ons.
Note that shipping charges above are estimates and are subject to change.
The shipping is obviously an unknown, especially considering how it's gone with some of Mantic's other kickstarters.
Nothing they said means they are charging any less for shipping. They are just only charging you once instead of twice, since now everybody will have things in wave 2. Assuming they make that stretch goal.
And nobody would buy an expansion with two miniatures for $40.
So at $300k we fund part of the expansion, $310k starts to fill out that expansion by putting Glen into it. Think it will complete by $350 (another character and a zombie)?
Are they the increases or the actual estimated shipping costs? If they are the estimated shipping costs then they're not actually that bad. I've been stung alot worse from KS from the US of A and kinda the reason why I rarely back KS from that part of the world. (still not backing this one though)
Pretty clear to me. There are four different locations, 4 different values.
The UK Wave 2 shipping was $8 but Wave 1 has also increased by $4, and they've stated there's no additional shipping to pay.
I don't think anyone sensible thinks it's going to finish with only 2 minis...just like no-one thought the pledge level was going to finish with 22 miniatures.
The Atlanta expansion has 6 figures for $40 where as the Hershals Farm expansion only has 2 for the same price. Guess we have quite a few stretch goals coming up to bring them in line.
They could do with adding the first proper addon sooner rather than later to help reach a few of these goals and make the campaign more attractive to potential backers.
I don't think anyone sensible thinks it's going to finish with only 2 minis...just like no-one thought the pledge level was going to finish with 22 miniatures.
That's part of the problem. All the sensible people see that Mantic is playing false stretch goals with only having two in the box. I guess we will see when this hits retail if the expansion only comes with those 2 models or if it comes with 6 or more. Mantic keeps playing silly games, lets just see what we are really getting and then we will decide if it's worth it or not.
The comments section is still talking about how these were great "stretch goals", but they are also calling Mantic out on them saying that they were also always planned as part of the original pledge amount. Mantic creator is saying no, these are actual stretch goals and we've already given you more than we expected too. No value here, move along
They are giving an expansion that's retailing for $40 for free. More than makes up for the $4 shipping increase that also covers shipping of any future add-ons.
$40 for a few pieces of card, 2 boardgame plastic 30mm figures and a paper mat?
Sheesh.
I seem to remember a day when Mantic were value for money - even if it was restic models.
As for all the people thinking that the TV show returning will cause a boost.
Really?
I don't sit down to watch a TV show in an evening, then afterwards think... "hey, I know... I wonder if there's a kickstarter game of this TV show. I'll just go and look..."
:-(
If Mantic really had planned this out well a few months ago, there would have been an advert in TWD comic # 151 in anticipation. There wasn't. Nor will one in #152 be any use as the KS will have ended. So much for working well with Skybound/Image comics.
The show returning could only bring a bump from the people who are ultra fanatics and go to podcasts and blogs before and after the show for more info. That's why they are trying to get on "The Talking Dead", but highly unlikely.
At the end of the day its mostly about the minis for me and these in all honesty are not particularly interesting. With the market jam packed with cool zeds and survivors I struggle to find this project appealing. In fact Mantic first fantasy undead miniatures are actually better than these fatso, bubblehead caricatures.
While I certainly hope the Greene Farm expansion will come with more figures, the 2 figures, rules, and some cardstock has been done before.
Dust Tactics had a half dozen box sets that were just some rules, some card tiles, and 2 figures.
Operation Cyclone Campaign Expansion (2 models) $39.95
Operation SeeLowe Campaign Expansion (2 models) $39.95
Operation Cerberus Campaign Expansion (2 models) $44.95
Operation Icarus Campaign Expansion (2 models) $44.95
Operation Hades Campaign Expansion (1 model) $44.95
Operation Zverograd Campaign Expansion (2 models + terrain) $44.95
GrimDork wrote: This entire awful thread has been worth it to see that awesome Michone (and company) conversion. Just need to source a katana...
Suetonius Paullinus wrote:The only 'conversions' I did were the hat and pistol for Carl (female survivors) and Michonne's katana (WGF's samurai warriors).
So yes, extremely easy and I think WGF had TWD in mind when designing this range of figures. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if one of the bikers would make a really good Daryl impression Wink
In any case..you gotta love multipart hard plastics!
Yeah, not seeing the value or much appeal. The zombie schtick is pretty tired by now; TWD franchise isn't enough this late in the game. Especially when it's not capitalizing on the TV show. I am having a hard time trying to see why someone would want to buy in on these mediocre sculpts rather than play something like ATZ and use whatever they have.
Those Project Z not-Walking Dead look good. That looks like a project with potential!
I'm still trying to figure out why people are buying Mantic stuff at KS prices when you know it's going to be in the clearance section 3 months after release..
I'm looking at the IA ally and villain packs, and, it's obvious some packs will be more popular than others, meaning that you will have SW fans who will buy the Chewbacca, Han Solo, C3PO and R2D2, and Princess Leia packs, but not the army packs. On top of this, unlike TWD, IA is both a one-vs-many "dungeoncrawl" game, as well as a skirmish game.
TWD, meanwhile, will be selling packs of individual characters or a character and another less popular figure. Were there really TWD characters (besides Michonne) that were THAT obviously more popular than others? Sure, the characters from the series will sell more than, say, generic packs of zombies and gangers, but I can't see someone buying Glenn but not Amy. Hopefully, the packs will sell related characters, such as Glenn and Maggie, at least. But I'm pretty turned off at how piecemeal Mantic is packaging its products (including a core set with only Rick and Carl and not even any baddies that were popular) and I'm not seeing "value" in this $40 expansion with so few miniatures.
fwiw, Tannhauser released individual figure packs (prepainted!) and that didn't work well, either.
There are probably other games if you want some kind of realistic breach and clear but I don't think you really need special rules to move through buildings.
I might be a season behind, but Netflix all the way so I don't have to see those evil things.....Commercials, not walkers.
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