These are very cleverly done in the sense that if you bough IceStorm, Red Veil and other hyped products since than (Yaun Yaun, Druze, Outrage, etc) you're likely to have enough models to make either of these armies work with just a few more purchases.
Its a smart way to keep newer players and casual players interested (and long term players too, but we probably weren't going anywhere)
Or just take advantage of the new liberal proxy rules. (Response to Jake's comment)
Book contents will be the 4 NAAs, their background, and some current events updates, it seems. I'm still interested in getting it. I suppose pre-order becomes available soon, here in the US.
I'm OK with this book - of course! - and people have wanted Mercenaries 'officially' in for some time now.
But, I'm a bit lost now, so has this book:
1) pushed back "Acheron Falls"?
2) Is that book still going to be called "Acheron Falls"?
3) Is the Al-Medinat sectorial still in 'that' book
4) Are the various Svalarheima sectorials still in 'that' book?
With 4 more armies coming, we may well see a book at GenCon. It might be the Paradiso N3.
Svalarheim seems way off. The suspicion is that the next four are from the following: Varuna, Invincible Army, Tunguska, Vedic, and whatever the Kazak is called. They'll probably be the next book. No word on the Al-Medinate, or Khanate.
The forthcoming battle pack is rumored to beAriadna v. CA. There is another Army Box coming, too, IIRC.
With 4 more armies coming, we may well see a book at GenCon. It might be the Paradiso N3.
Svalarheim seems way off. The suspicion is that the next four are from the following: Varuna, Invincible Army, Tunguska, Vedic, and whatever the Kazak is called. They'll probably be the next book. No word on the Al-Medinate, or Khanate.
That's not "speculation". That's confirmed for the next ones. It's Al-Medinate next for Haqqislam, Khanate's a ways off.
Tartary for RussAriadna BTW.
Well, Vedic's a bit in the air but otherwise the list is accurate. Varuna for PanO, Invincible Army for Yu Jing--both of these are because they want the two Svalarheima lists at the same time--Tunguska for Nomads, and Tartary for Ariadna. Al-Medinate("the super-soldier sectorial") for Haqqislam.
The rumored battle pack is Ariadna v. CA. There is another Army Box coming, IIRC.
There's 3 more army boxes this year, from what I was given as a rumor last year. JSA first was a surprise(I expected Tunguska first to be honest) but it was one of the four I had credible rumors about.
It's worth mentioning that the "rumored battle pack" is Kazaks versus Shasvastii, specifically, with the new CA starter being a genericized version of the Shasvastii Sectorial.
If it is Ariadna Vs CA I wonder what the Combined Army portion will be? I'd assume Shas, but we've been told not to expect them this year. I guess it could be an actual Combined Army starter (and the existing one could be relabeled as a Onyx starter).
Well, Vedic's a bit in the air but otherwise the list is accurate. Varuna for PanO, Invincible Army for Yu Jing--both of these are because they want the two Svalarheima lists at the same time--Tunguska for Nomads, and Tartary for Ariadna. Al-Medinate("the super-soldier sectorial") for Haqqislam.
So that's the list for the 'next book', whatever it is titled, whenever it comes out?
Well, Vedic's a bit in the air but otherwise the list is accurate. Varuna for PanO, Invincible Army for Yu Jing--both of these are because they want the two Svalarheima lists at the same time--Tunguska for Nomads, and Tartary for Ariadna. Al-Medinate("the super-soldier sectorial") for Haqqislam.
So that's the list for the 'next book', whatever it is titled, whenever it comes out?
Only four more new armies this year. Carlos made a point of emphasizing that. Tartary (kazaks) stands nearly confirmed, so three more to puzzle out. Svalarheim won't be one of them. Nor will Al-Medinate. Unless CB has another surprise up its sleeve.
Al-Medinate is now called the Ramah Task Force. I keep forgetting that too.
Not sure what I think of Starco; I'll almost certainly play it, as it just takes my CJC stuff and mixes it up a bit, but at the same time, the big problem with CJC is a lack of meaningful identity. Aquaciles without Lupe in the same faction as Jaguars sounds about as useful as Mobile Brigada competing with Riot Grrls. Hopefully whatever they do to make them interesting here will bleed a bit into CJC, because right now it needs something to stand out from Vanilla.
Taking Druze and JSA and remixing the into Ikari feels like an odd choice at this point. Not sure how interested I am in that, but I think I like Ikari better than Druze for what its worth. Weird that Saito works for the former but not the latter.
Fluff-wise, the Ikari Company sounds fun. JSA secessionists with political malcontents and mercenaries that are borderline terrorist organizations.
Interesting that the name chosen for the JSA Spec Ops is kaizoku. That means pirate. So I wonder if the JSA is taking part in piracy in Yu Jing's sphere?
Red Harvest wrote: Only four more new armies this year. Carlos made a point of emphasizing that. Tartary (kazaks) stands nearly confirmed, so three more to puzzle out. Svalarheim won't be one of them. Nor will Al-Medinate. Unless CB has another surprise up its sleeve.
Al-Medinate is now called the Ramah Task Force. I keep forgetting that too.
Red Harvest wrote: Only four more new armies this year. Carlos made a point of emphasizing that. Tartary (kazaks) stands nearly confirmed, so three more to puzzle out. Svalarheim won't be one of them. Nor will Al-Medinate. Unless CB has another surprise up its sleeve.
Al-Medinate is now called the Ramah Task Force. I keep forgetting that too.
The issue with this is what does CB view as a "new army"?
There were 4 "Ns" slated on that big infographic last year(not going to bother finding it so don't ask). JSA fits roughly with the first "N", the next one is slated for May/June-ish and the last two were in the fall/winter.
Aragoto are still AVA 4, but Asuka Kiraragi has been removed from JSA? Maybe she will join Izzat Beg in motorcycle character valhalla after being 'replaced' by the catgirl motorcyclist.
Absolutionis wrote: Aragoto are still AVA 4, but Asuka Kiraragi has been removed from JSA? Maybe she will join Izzat Beg in motorcycle character valhalla after being 'replaced' by the catgirl motorcyclist.
Raiden and Haramaki also seem to be missing.
Bostria said something about "no spoilers" in the video today but the fluff for catgirl I've seen floating around seems to hint that Asuka Kiraragi is dead.
Absolutionis wrote: Aragoto are still AVA 4, but Asuka Kiraragi has been removed from JSA? Maybe she will join Izzat Beg in motorcycle character valhalla after being 'replaced' by the catgirl motorcyclist.
Raiden and Haramaki also seem to be missing.
Bostria said something about "no spoilers" in the video today but the fluff for catgirl I've seen floating around seems to hint that Asuka Kiraragi is dead.
"Dead" perhaps.
Considering the catgirl motorcyclist is basically a reference to an anime where the character is a headless revenant/dullahan on a motorcycle wearing a cat helmet out for revenge on people that 'killed' her, it may actually be the "dead" Asuka. She had a cube, anyways.
jake wrote:I was hoping for something besides Merc companies, but I guess we knew it was coming eventually. Its not something I find very compelling, but I know some people have been really wanting them.
The book is about non aligned armies, minor factions in the Infinity universe, these are some of the biggest mercenary companies out there in the narrative and JSA's political and military power level is at this stage at the moment, remember even Ariadna are a major power in Infinity.
I mean no major power sectorial would fit in this book.
Alpharius wrote:I'm OK with this book - of course! - and people have wanted Mercenaries 'officially' in for some time now.
But, I'm a bit lost now, so has this book:
1) pushed back "Acheron Falls"? 2) Is that book still going to be called "Acheron Falls"? 3) Is the Al-Medinat sectorial still in 'that' book 4) Are the various Svalarheima sectorials still in 'that' book?
1) no, there was never a release date attached other than it would be the next book after N2 Paradiso, but the books got rebooted to N3. 2) never was meant to be named like that 3) Unknown 4)Unknown
Curious if Raiden are just the Ryuken Unit-9. I assume Batou and the Major are the Ryuken models, so there's no obvious consistency to be enforced. They look like they could be Med Infantry that the Raiden could fit in easy enough.
Alright, so it sounds like we're keeping Ninja, so ISS is happy. Raiden and Haramaki don't show up in the new JSA list, but that doesn't mean they stay in vanilla either. I'll be honest, if we get a non-JSA reworking of the Raiden profile then I'll be happy with that at least. But we'll need to see if those profiles remain or if CB are just quietly squatting them with the changeover.
There is also a possibility the Shikami may stick around since it got a YJ specific scheme, but again, nothing confirmed.
So of the 16 JSA profiles in the list (including named characters) we are confirmed to be keeping one with a potential three others (but very, very much unconfirmed). Of those 16, 7 of them saw heavy use in vanilla (Keisotsu, Aragoto, Ninja, Raiden, Oniwaban, Kitsune, Tokusetsu). We are keeping one of those profiles for sure (Ninja), and maybe keeping a second (depending on the fate of the Raiden profile).
A pretty harsh hit either way. Keisotsu were some of the best line troops in the list (with the best low-cost FO), Zhanshi are terrible in comparison and either need to reworking or we need a new LI that is as efficiently costed as the Keisotsu. Losing the Tokusetsu is basically the same, it cost less than the Mech-Engineer and Yisheng and was better in every way. A 2 point deficit per line trooper may not seem like much, but with Zhanshi offering no additional utility for the extra cost and with Yu Jing having some great options for a 5-6 point price tag, losing the extra points will certainly force a lot of list reworking for no gain in power or utility. At this point, a Zhanshi rework is kind of a must (or increase CG and Kuang Shi AVA in vanilla to allow us to continue to ignore them until they fix them in White Banner or something).
Aragoto is basically impossible to proxy as anything remaining in vanilla, so RIP unless you decide to play JSA. But worse than that is it was a fairly unique role filled in vanilla (fast-attack and specialist) that nothing else currently fills (maybe they can give us a KHD Su-Jian or something to fill the void).
While good enough for proxies, losing the role filled by the Oniwaban and Kitsune is another big blow to our selection in terms of aggressive unit assassins. It is a trick we shared with Haqq that we've now lost out on completely. Sadly, I don't expect any new skirmisher/infiltrator units with the Invincible Army (but we may be surprised), so this role may end up being something we never see again.
As for the Raiden, it was well-loved in vanilla for its ability to mess up links while providing excellent defensive cover on the back line (Yu Jing loves it some defensive deployed weapons). It not being in the new JSA list gives some hope for it being in vanilla still, but at the same time, with so few JSA units left to field it now seems kind of incongruous as well. Might be best to rename it, give it new fluff and carry on. That said, it may also be getting renamed/reworked for JSA and might leave us completely. So jury is still out either way.
As for the Haramaki, if we keep it... meh? They were mostly great for linking, in vanilla they lack a clear role and lack the tools to be a proper heavy warband (no smoke or defensive abilities). So either this one is staying and vanilla will continue to ignore it, or it is leaving and getting reworked in JSA.
All in all, it doesn't appear to be a worst case scenario for the faction, but it has certainly put them behind the curve compared to the vanilla unit selections of every other major faction in the game. Losing that many profiles (especially useful ones) from a list is going to hurt, and certainly makes me less likely to field vanilla Yu Jing going forward. If we still had a full compliment of sectorials going for us, then this might not be so bad, but we only have one now which makes us feel even more limited (especially since so few ISS profiles are useful in vanilla compared to what we got from JSA, ISS is basically self-contained outside of things like the CG, Kuang Shi, Hsien, and Su-Jian which see actual vanilla usage).
One way or another, I really hope the next army release is the Invicible Army otherwise it looks like I'm taking another Infinity hiatus until CB decided to patch my faction back up.
As for the book? With no real interest in JSA and everything besides the Druze looking like a grab bag, I guess I'll probably be holding off on this release. Might grab it later if I can find it at a discount and the fluff is worthwhile, but not worth pre-ordering at this juncture.
Zensenbutai just means "Front Line Unit", while I don't doubt that the Haramaki have been replaced by the Tanko, the unit descriptor is pretty generic. (I'm thinking that Tanko means "single shot", but I'm really looking at some obscure kanji that I'm quite unfamiliar with).
Alpharius wrote: Moon Knight's name is (for the most part) Marc Spector.
He's a Marvel Universe super-hero.
There's a "Raoul Spector' in that sectorial - hence the Moon Knight 'joke'!
His icon is the primary reason I think its more than a passing coincidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Tanko are listed as a Special Fireteam, which lines up with the Haramaki, which require at least 1 Domaru or Neko to link.
.Mikes. wrote: Has there been any confirmation yet on what units YJ will lose access to?
Oniwaban and Keisotsu for sure, along with any of the characters listed under the JSA thing.
Spoiler:
Slightly better photo, it doesn't blur out the link types.
I think I saw 1 TO & 3 camo tokens on the sheet.
Not sure if those sheets are generic or tailored to the army box they come with...
I would assume this means the Unit-9 guys have camo then. Makes sense because it looks like they’re replacing Raiden.
.Mikes. wrote: Has there been any confirmation yet on what units YJ will lose access to?
Oniwaban and Keisotsu for sure, along with any of the characters listed under the JSA thing.
Spoiler:
Slightly better photo, it doesn't blur out the link types.
I think I saw 1 TO & 3 camo tokens on the sheet. Not sure if those sheets are generic or tailored to the army box they come with... I would assume this means the Unit-9 guys have camo then. Makes sense because it looks like they’re replacing Raiden.
I can't find a TO camo marker that looks like it came off a sheet rather than a cutout so I think they're tailored specifically to the army box they come with, at least in my USARF Army Box stuff that I dug out before commenting--wanted to make sure it wasn't just a 'generic' sheet but the stuff has been punched out for so long that I can't say for 100% certainty.
As I have 4 normal camo markers in the box and baggy within(Foxtrot Ranger is Camo plus he has AP Mines--4 camo markers), I think it's important to note that it could just be Oniwaban(TO Camo) and one of the new models has Mines(which would jibe with it being 3 Camo markers)
The other connection I just rememberd. Raoul Bushman is the merc who left Marc Spector for dead in tomb where he first becomes Moon Knight and goes on to be one his major recurring villains, so... yeah, its totally Moon Knight.
They are tailored. The S5 marker in this box has the silhouette of the big guy in this box - Red Veil has the Ahl Fasid on it. The USAriadna one didn’t have a TO camo marker, but Icestorm and Red Veil did.
I don't own any of the non-CJC stuff from StarCo, so assuming there's some fun mechanics available, I'll probably paint stuff up in CJC colors and have it as an option. Looks by the logo that they're running the same color scheme anyway.
jake wrote:I was hoping for something besides Merc companies, but I guess we knew it was coming eventually. Its not something I find very compelling, but I know some people have been really wanting them.
The book is about non aligned armies, minor factions in the Infinity universe, these are some of the biggest mercenary companies out there in the narrative and JSA's political and military power level is at this stage at the moment, remember even Ariadna are a major power in Infinity.
I mean no major power sectorial would fit in this book.
Yeah, I know. I was holding out hope for something that was more compelling (to me), but I dont really know what that would be that would fit in this book. Well, I guess its JSA. I dont really find the MERC stuff interesting at all, but the JSA succession is. It takes both the army and the narrative in a neat direction. But thats just my opinion. I know a lot of people have been super excited for mercenary stuff. Hopefully the next book will be more my speed.
.Mikes. wrote: Has there been any confirmation yet on what units YJ will lose access to?
Oniwaban and Keisotsu for sure, along with any of the characters listed under the JSA thing.
Spoiler:
Slightly better photo, it doesn't blur out the link types.
I think I saw 1 TO & 3 camo tokens on the sheet.
Not sure if those sheets are generic or tailored to the army box they come with...
I would assume this means the Unit-9 guys have camo then. Makes sense because it looks like they’re replacing Raiden.
I can't find a TO camo marker that looks like it came off a sheet rather than a cutout so I think they're tailored specifically to the army box they come with, at least in my USARF Army Box stuff that I dug out before commenting--wanted to make sure it wasn't just a 'generic' sheet but the stuff has been punched out for so long that I can't say for 100% certainty.
As I have 4 normal camo markers in the box and baggy within(Foxtrot Ranger is Camo plus he has AP Mines--4 camo markers), I think it's important to note that it could just be Oniwaban(TO Camo) and one of the new models has Mines(which would jibe with it being 3 Camo markers)
The Raiden HRL profile has Minelayer along with Limited Camo.
So, assuming that the Ryuken are effectively Raiden replacements, that's two Camo Tokens for Batou and one for the Major - three tokens accounted for.
It's more than a helmet. It is the armor too. I saw the name and assumed it would be a HI unit. (in Nethack: Tanko is plate armor, if you play the Samurai character. Helmet is Kabuto. And this is how I know about Japanese armor. From an ancient computer game. I assume that the game gets these things right. The developers did screw up with the Lucerne Hammer. They thought it was a warhammer of some sort and not a pole-arm. Rookie mistake. )
Carlos did not mention any sort of 'compensation' YJ would get for this. Perhaps in the forthcoming episodes?
The Raiden HRL profile has Minelayer along with Limited Camo.
So, assuming that the Ryuken are effectively Raiden replacements, that's two Camo Tokens for Batou and one for the Major - three tokens accounted for.
Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer:
With the USARF box it's 4 camo tokens labeled 1, 2, 3, and 4. Three of them are for his AP Mines since AP Mines deploy as camo tokens.
You always carry 3 Mines so that would be all 3 of his Mines plus him as the 4 Camo Markers.
The Raiden HRL profile has Minelayer along with Limited Camo.
So, assuming that the Ryuken are effectively Raiden replacements, that's two Camo Tokens for Batou and one for the Major - three tokens accounted for.
Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer:
With the USARF box it's 4 camo tokens labeled 1, 2, 3, and 4. Three of them are for his AP Mines since AP Mines deploy as camo tokens.
You always carry 3 Mines so that would be all 3 of his Mines plus him as the 4 Camo Markers.
That's what I was getting at by mentioning Mines.
Yeah looking at that now, I bet someone has mines.
Probably the unit-9 guys, but who knows, could be the biker or fatty HI.
-Loki- wrote: edit - huh, didn't notice the new O-Yoroi was an arm swap on the old model.
I was really underwhelmed upon closer examination. While I’ve always wanted the o-yoroi to actually hold the sword, I cannot for the life of me figure out what he’s doing in this new pose.
-Loki- wrote: edit - huh, didn't notice the new O-Yoroi was an arm swap on the old model.
I was really underwhelmed upon closer examination. While I’ve always wanted the o-yoroi to actually hold the sword, I cannot for the life of me figure out what he’s doing in this new pose.
It looks like it's shooting something large - another TAG, probably, while drawing back for a sweep with the sword arm. Mind you, I was never sure how it actually drew that blade in the first place.
Well now we know the reason why there were claims of "PanO crying"...Daiyokai Dengekitai has MULTI Marksman Rifle and Panzerfaust or Red Fury, Panzerfaust.
Truthfully, I'd be more annoyed as USARF. Fatality on this stupid thing? Really?
Its only Fatality lvl1. +1DAM to BS weapons on a expensive profile, although it's rather good with Daiyokais weapon options but not something to "cry" about not having.
The interesting profiles out of these shown was to me the new kempetais. Really liking the MSV2 Marksman. I could se myself using a core of MSV2 Kempetai with Domaru Spit and 2 Tagalong Keisotsu FO and a Paramedic.
The other updated profile that caught my eye was the new Oniwaban with SMG. Puting him in suppression fire far forward will be tough to if it managed to take out the MSV2 threat first.
Bubbalicious wrote: Its only Fatality lvl1. +1DAM to BS weapons, although it's rather good with Daiyokais weapon options.
That's more the issue, at least for me.
Plus the weapon options. I mean really, MULTI Marksman Rifle on an HI? Would have been nice for Aquila Guard to get as an option.
Agree that it would have been a nice option for other units as well. Maybe they will get it in the future since its a new weapon and didnt exist when the Aquila profile was done.
Bubbalicious wrote: Its only Fatality lvl1. +1DAM to BS weapons, although it's rather good with Daiyokais weapon options.
That's more the issue, at least for me.
Plus the weapon options. I mean really, MULTI Marksman Rifle on an HI? Would have been nice for Aquila Guard to get as an option.
Agree that it would have been a nice option for other units as well. Maybe they will get it in the future since its a new weapon and didnt exist when the Aquila profile was done.
Which means it's basically guaranteed to never happen since they don't seem to do retroactive that well.
Raiden is Ryuken - 9 atleast the HRL one is same profile
Ah, didn't notice that - thank you!
It's technically a little different, but clearly the same idea. It dropped to LI and picked up 4-4. Lost a point of CC and ARM gained a heavy pistol and went up a couple of points. Special abilities are in different places, but all available on that profile.
I do find it odd that Batou has a marker state but the Major does not. ODD is certainly a fine trade, but kind of an odd choice to give it to one profile and not the obvious other..
It's technically a little different, but clearly the same idea. It dropped to LI and picked up 4-4. Lost a point of CC and ARM gained a heavy pistol and went up a couple of points. Special abilities are in different places, but all available on that profile.
I do find it odd that Batou has a marker state but the Major does not. ODD is certainly a fine trade, but kind of an odd choice to give it to one profile and not the obvious other..
It's basically the way of doing the Spetsnaz: they wanted different profiles that would play differently.
LunarSol wrote: I mean, I get why they did it; I'm just kind of surprised that Batou's model is less visible on the table than the Major's.
Well, only until it does anything.
It’s really an underwhelming mini for such an iconic character. I expected more profiles for Ryuken Unit-9 so they could make the rest of the GITS section 9 team; enough to warrant releasing a box of 4 guys.
Just make them like Scots Guard, order sergeants, acontecimento regulars, ... etc where only a few of the profiles can form a link team.
As far as we can tell JSA still lacks any unit in that sort of vein. It’d make sense for them to form that sort of unit now that they have no support from Yu Jing for all those other roles.
LunarSol wrote: I think they only showed off the profiles for the models in the box set.
Personally, I'd be surprised if any of the existing models changed. Even the Rider is basically a souped up Asuka.
Rider is Asuka, 6 pts more expensive, with dogged, and better CC skill + weapon.
She is a Specialist now. Not bad for a bike that also has a flamethrower.
Automatically Appended Next Post: SMG oniwaban will be a tempting option now.
Always been disappointed that they have monofilament CCW, it’s such a specific use weapon.
Man, this has been more than a little disheartening. And I'm not even talking about the new units, Oniwaban leave Yu Jing and get the one thing we've been asking for on them since they were first revealed, a freaking B3 weapon!
The Ryuken get to keep the best Raiden profile and get supplemented with more mid-field control?
Asuka gets turned from something of mild relevance in vanilla in to a great fast specialist?
So not only am I losing some of my favourite vanilla options, but they're getting improved now that I can't use 'em.
Hurray...
Worse still, now it's sounding like the Invincible Army wont be coming along quickly to plug all the gaps left by the JSA (hell, some are saying it wont even show up in 2018). Refrains of "play ISS" and "it will be a rough year for Yu Jing" aren't doing a lot to warm me up to the way CB have decided to handle this. For a year that I went in to super-hyped for, this is sounding like a bit of a bust and the split JSA getting profile improvements that vanilla would have loved is just rubbing salt in the wounds. I already had to wait seven years for them to make ISS playable, I'm not looking for another wait to get vanilla back in to shape now.
I'm trying real hard to see a silver lining here, but CB really need to communicate with Yu Jing players, and not in their normal coy and info-free "teehee, we have a secret" sort of way. I was expecting at least something early on in the week, but each day of coverage without some kind of concrete statement is making it seem less and less likely that CB have anything in mind to help the faction out now that we're down a third of our profiles and a whole sectorial.
So as happy and excited as I want to be about new profiles (something that normally gets me excited or at least interested even when they aren't for my faction), this has put a pretty big rain cloud over my parade.
But as a non-salty aside, a lot of those profiles are looking great and I hope the JSA appreciate the new toys. They definitely grant some flexibility to the sectorial. I'm also interested to see if the Rui Shi is getting a rework for the JSA (given the callout in the Ikari Company list). The Tanko should also prove to be interesting, though I can't imagine it will behave quite like the Haramaki given the AVA.
Ronin_eX wrote: Man, this has been more than a little disheartening. And I'm not even talking about the new units, Oniwaban leave Yu Jing and get the one thing we've been asking for on them since they were first revealed, a freaking B3 weapon!
The Ryuken get to keep the best Raiden profile and get supplemented with more mid-field control?
Asuka gets turned from something of mild relevance in vanilla in to a great fast specialist?
So not only am I losing some of my favourite vanilla options, but they're getting improved now that I can't use 'em.
Hurray...
Worse still, now it's sounding like the Invincible Army wont be coming along quickly to plug all the gaps left by the JSA (hell, some are saying it wont even show up in 2018). Refrains of "play ISS" and "it will be a rough year for Yu Jing" aren't doing a lot to warm me up to the way CB have decided to handle this. For a year that I went in to super-hyped for, this is sounding like a bit of a bust and the split JSA getting profile improvements that vanilla would have loved is just rubbing salt in the wounds. I already had to wait seven years for them to make ISS playable, I'm not looking for another wait to get vanilla back in to shape now.
I'm trying real hard to see a silver lining here, but CB really need to communicate with Yu Jing players, and not in their normal coy and info-free "teehee, we have a secret" sort of way. I was expecting at least something early on in the week, but each day of coverage without some kind of concrete statement is making it seem less and less likely that CB have anything in mind to help the faction out now that we're down a third of our profiles and a whole sectorial.
So as happy and excited as I want to be about new profiles (something that normally gets me excited or at least interested even when they aren't for my faction), this has put a pretty big rain cloud over my parade.
But as a non-salty aside, a lot of those profiles are looking great and I hope the JSA appreciate the new toys. They definitely grant some flexibility to the sectorial. I'm also interested to see if the Rui Shi is getting a rework for the JSA (given the callout in the Ikari Company list). The Tanko should also prove to be interesting, though I can't imagine it will behave quite like the Haramaki given the AVA.
They mentioned in the last video that Yu Jing will have to get some love soon. They just removed a good third of their roster.
I would expect some changes for ISS & by all accounts invincible army was involved in this JSA uprising. They very well might be next. There are 4 new sectorials dropping this year. Considering Yu Jing only has ONE official sectorial right now, they must be getting invincibles this year.
Ronin_eX wrote: Man, this has been more than a little disheartening. And I'm not even talking about the new units, Oniwaban leave Yu Jing and get the one thing we've been asking for on them since they were first revealed, a freaking B3 weapon!
The Ryuken get to keep the best Raiden profile and get supplemented with more mid-field control?
Asuka gets turned from something of mild relevance in vanilla in to a great fast specialist?
So not only am I losing some of my favourite vanilla options, but they're getting improved now that I can't use 'em.
Hurray...
Worse still, now it's sounding like the Invincible Army wont be coming along quickly to plug all the gaps left by the JSA (hell, some are saying it wont even show up in 2018). Refrains of "play ISS" and "it will be a rough year for Yu Jing" aren't doing a lot to warm me up to the way CB have decided to handle this. For a year that I went in to super-hyped for, this is sounding like a bit of a bust and the split JSA getting profile improvements that vanilla would have loved is just rubbing salt in the wounds. I already had to wait seven years for them to make ISS playable, I'm not looking for another wait to get vanilla back in to shape now.
I'm trying real hard to see a silver lining here, but CB really need to communicate with Yu Jing players, and not in their normal coy and info-free "teehee, we have a secret" sort of way. I was expecting at least something early on in the week, but each day of coverage without some kind of concrete statement is making it seem less and less likely that CB have anything in mind to help the faction out now that we're down a third of our profiles and a whole sectorial.
So as happy and excited as I want to be about new profiles (something that normally gets me excited or at least interested even when they aren't for my faction), this has put a pretty big rain cloud over my parade.
But as a non-salty aside, a lot of those profiles are looking great and I hope the JSA appreciate the new toys. They definitely grant some flexibility to the sectorial. I'm also interested to see if the Rui Shi is getting a rework for the JSA (given the callout in the Ikari Company list). The Tanko should also prove to be interesting, though I can't imagine it will behave quite like the Haramaki given the AVA.
I felt the same way after losing Exrah (and when it looked like we might also see Shasvastii quietly go away). Don't lose hope. You still have plenty of good options. For now you can make do with a smaller selection. Try some options you normally ignore. Explore some unconventional lists. New stuff will come for the rest of Yujing soon enough. It'll hopefully all even out eventually.
I tend to think that when they say stuff like "it'll be a tough year", CB tend to have this fluff-centric way of talking, talking like its a living game where story comes first, that don’t really translate so well to the concerns of people who primarily play ITS style stuff and don't engage with the in-universe story all that much.
On that note, they have already teased the IA a tiny bit (those comments about the invinicble army being mobilised the fight the rebellion).
And Carlos also flat out said ISS is getting releases later in the year.
I actually like that CB are willing to make moves like this. Leaving a game universe static makes it stale. Acts like this make it feel like a living, breathing world.
.Mikes. wrote: I actually like that CB are willing to make moves like this. Leaving a game universe static makes it stale. Acts like this make it feel like a living, breathing world.
Now if only they would apply this mindset to rules. They tend to be 'one and done' unless it's a pet project like Yu Jing.
.Mikes. wrote: I actually like that CB are willing to make moves like this. Leaving a game universe static makes it stale. Acts like this make it feel like a living, breathing world.
Now if only they would apply this mindset to rules. They tend to be 'one and done' unless it's a pet project like Yu Jing.
We've seen multiple major rules updates over the last few years. Its also not unheard of for units to be revised or receive new profiles out of nowhere.
Sounds like Vedic and Varuna also "Confirmed". CB could do with the Kazak-Shasvastii box what they did with Red Veil; make the Ariadna starter the default Tartary starter ( like the Haqq starter is Ramah Task Force and the Yu Jing is the IA) but not release the Tartary sectorial yet. That would leave room for the IA sectorial and Tunguska or Ramah.
Releasing IA sooner rather than later would be a wise move in CB's part.
Gamenerdz has the book up for pre-order, $32.47. For those of you interested.
.Mikes. wrote: I actually like that CB are willing to make moves like this. Leaving a game universe static makes it stale. Acts like this make it feel like a living, breathing world.
Now if only they would apply this mindset to rules. They tend to be 'one and done' unless it's a pet project like Yu Jing.
We've seen multiple major rules updates over the last few years. Its also not unheard of for units to be revised or receive new profiles out of nowhere.
So where are the updates to Bolts? Aquila Guard? Swiss Guard? How about Auxilia? PanO's been told that they have to wait for new ORC profiles that will be "Varuna exclusive" to see a flipping ORC box at this point.
You're welcome to disagree with me if you'd like, but it's worth mentioning that revisions/"new profiles" tend to be reserved for pet projects or when they get called out on it in regards to products being unable to work like they're supposed to. Druze got Fatality L1 added to their profile--that was part of a pet project. Khawarjis and Tarik got Fatality L2 added to them. Yu Jing lost a whole Sectorial and yet still the ISS is slated to get more stuff this year to 'compensate' them. It took people pointing out that the 300 point CJC Army Pack couldn't actually be used to make a legal list for them to add the Boarding Shotgun Lt option to Mobile Brigada.
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Vain wrote: Oh boy, I am digging the Tanko design!
So damn sexy!
Hopefully these get a box soon. Poor Haramaki though.
Since Carlos said that the Domaru were getting updated profiles it would be neat if the surviving Haramaki were incorperated into the Domaru. The N3 fluff already introduced the idea that they worked together, with Domaru as vets leading the less experienced Haramaki.
So this would actually give the Haramaki models a home, and if there's ML and Blitzen profiles for the Domaru that would be even better!
I was also thinking the Kempeitai were a notable exclusion. I forget that in both cases, the fireteam is still a Core; just a Special Core.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I really can't wait to see how StarCo works out. There are a LOT of AVA 1 models in general and quite a few in Special fireteams.
CB has already 'edited' their Yu Jing catalog page. Haramaki are no longer there. Haramaki look enough like the Domaru that they would proxy just fine.
Will Carlos/Bostria drop any bombshells at Adepticon, which is two weeks away? Something about the IA would do CB a world of wonders.
Red Harvest wrote: CB has already 'edited' their Yu Jing catalog page. Haramaki are no longer there. Haramaki look enough like the Domaru that they would proxy just fine.
Will Carlos/Bostria drop any bombshells at Adepticon, which is two weeks away? Something about the IA would do CB a world of wonders.
I'd rather see a Tunguskan Sectorial announcement...
Give me an Army Pack with: Tunguska Starter(3x Grenzers 1 with Deployable Repeater/FO and the other 2 with CR+LFT, 1x Securitate Hacker, 1x Spektr with MSR, Hollow Man) Booklet and scenery A set of Tactical Puppets Grenzer SpecOps Kriza Borac with HMG and Kriza Borac with MULTI Rifle
I'll buy not one, but two if the sculpts are good enough.
Micky wrote: I tend to think that when they say stuff like "it'll be a tough year", CB tend to have this fluff-centric way of talking, talking like its a living game where story comes first, that don’t really translate so well to the concerns of people who primarily play ITS style stuff and don't engage with the in-universe story all that much.
On that note, they have already teased the IA a tiny bit (those comments about the invinicble army being mobilised the fight the rebellion).
And Carlos also flat out said ISS is getting releases later in the year.
Carlos said in the BoW profiles video:
A) yu Jing will be getting a new sectorial to take up that empty slot.
B) ISS will be getting new releases this year. I would think new profiles? Not many existing ISS profiles are missing minis.
Now, Carlos said it in his usual *wink wink nudge nudge* manner. Considering he flat out said 4 new sectorials coming after this I would feel pretty safe assuming IA will be out this year. Presumably they are a big part of the uprising story which will be kicking major changes in the developing infinity lore.
Red Harvest wrote: CB has already 'edited' their Yu Jing catalog page. Haramaki are no longer there. Haramaki look enough like the Domaru that they would proxy just fine.
Will Carlos/Bostria drop any bombshells at Adepticon, which is two weeks away? Something about the IA would do CB a world of wonders.
I'd rather see a Tunguskan Sectorial announcement...
Give me an Army Pack with:
Tunguska Starter(3x Grenzers 1 with Deployable Repeater/FO and the other 2 with CR+LFT, 1x Securitate Hacker, 1x Spektr with MSR, Kriza Borac with MULTI Rifle)
Booklet and scenery
A set of Hollow Men
Grenzer SpecOps
Kriza Borac with HMG
I'll buy not one, but two if the sculpts are good enough.
Aren't securitate their line troops? I would expect 3 of them in a starter.
They have the potential to be a very effective unit.
So where are the updates to Bolts? Aquila Guard? Swiss Guard? How about Auxilia? PanO's been told that they have to wait for new ORC profiles that will be "Varuna exclusive" to see a flipping ORC box at this point.
Well apart of those, what profiles are still in a bad spot?
Spoiler:
reading it in "Life of Brian" tone, obvious answer would be Teutons and perhaps some other Knights
Aren't securitate their line troops? I would expect 3 of them in a starter.
They have the potential to be a very effective unit.
Securitate are expected to be their Linkable Line Troops...but they already are sitting at 23 points for the cheapest(Combi Rifle only) profile thanks to their Repeaters and Sixth Sense L2.
They're in a strange place since them being the Linkable Line Troops would necessitate gutting the profile or doing something similarly brash to get them down to parity with most other 'Line Troops' that are able to be Linked.
I will say that I suspect they are going to be Tunguska's equivalent of the Danavas Hackers(which, interestingly enough, are Line Troops!) or Nexus Operatives. Hollow Men have long been rumored to be a Unidron/Dakini-esque unit and it would not be out of place for them to maybe have Triad, Duo, or Haris to allow for them to be 'teamed up' with a Securitate--much like Nexus can with Unidrons or the Danavas Hackers likely will be able to with Dakini Tactbots.
I fully expect Grenzers to be intended as the 'muscle' of the Sectorial, like Bolts were intended to for NCA(hence their AVA Total status). Whether or not they'll be successful in that role? That's up for debate.
I'd also expect Grenzers to be filling the 3 piece slot in the Tunguskan box since they've got a few profiles that have Combi+LFTs(LT and 'Basic') and the MSR profile is in the Nomad Starter set(which most people have bought by this point--and it includes the Spektr with Combi Rifle profile). That would leave either blisters or a box for the following:
Grenzer with Spitfire
Grenzer with Missile Launcher
Grenzer with Boarding Shotgun
Grenzer(Forward Observer) with Deployable Repeater, Combi Rifle+LFT.
Securitate on the other hand are:
Combi Rifle+Light Shotgun(4 profiles--one of which is a Hacker and one is the Paramedic)
HMG MULTI Sniper Rifle
You could fill that out with a single Securitate box fairly easily like they did with the Bagh-Mari, especially if we see a reduced AVA for Securitate in the Tunguskan Sectorial/Vanilla once the list finally hits.
LunarSol wrote: They're pretty free to do whatever they want with Securitate. They don't realistically exist in the game currently in any way that matters.
Which is exactly my point. Right now everyone expects this to just be another CJC or Bakunin. Every indication we've had suggests that won't be the case. Kriza Borac are supposed to be AVA2 tops in Tunguska with Duo as an option. They were supposed to get an HRL option(we saw it on the dossier when they got revealed), but that's been dropped since. We don't know what "Hollow Men" are(everyone keeps jumping right to "Holoprojectors") aside from them having Structure Points instead of Wounds.
jake wrote: I wonder who Mu sashi gets to link with.
The Haramaki replacement.
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Bladerunner2019 wrote: What’s the deal with the Kaizoku Spec-Ops? Is that a static profile?
Or is that one of those pick and choose guys?
Lord, where are the rules for that even found?
It’s an awesome model, I really hope it’s not one of those “build your own kit”. guys.
Anything that says "Spec-Ops" in the name is one of the 'build your own kit' guys.
Rules for those would be in the replacement version of Paradiso, or at least that was the idea. They might be in Uprising since it has all of the Dire Foes and their special scenarios though.
I guess it's no coincidence that the most recent JSA bike to be released was Yojimbo which didn't even have the Aragoto bike design; he had Penthesilea's Aleph bike. Even the Authorized Bounty Hunter had the Aleph bike.
jake wrote: I wonder who Mu sashi gets to link with.
The Haramaki replacement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bladerunner2019 wrote: What’s the deal with the Kaizoku Spec-Ops? Is that a static profile?
Or is that one of those pick and choose guys?
Lord, where are the rules for that even found?
It’s an awesome model, I really hope it’s not one of those “build your own kit”. guys.
Anything that says "Spec-Ops" in the name is one of the 'build your own kit' guys.
Rules for those would be in the replacement version of Paradiso, or at least that was the idea. They might be in Uprising since it has all of the Dire Foes and their special scenarios though.
I hope that’s the case & everything to use them is in the new book.
Paradiso was a long time ago & you can’t really use them now. Lord knows that campaign is too damned complicated to pull off under normal circumstances.
But the build your own guys only sell one mini. Dire Foes will sell 3 minis. I don't expect updated Spec Ops rules in the uprising book. Sectorials and associated new rules, unit backgrounds, more on current events in the human Sphere, the Dire Foes storyline, updated Dire Foes, except Bipandra, por supuesto and some nice artwork.
Red Harvest wrote: But the build your own guys only sell one mini. Dire Foes will sell 3 minis. I don't expect updated Spec Ops rules in the uprising book. Sectorials and associated new rules, unit backgrounds, more on current events in the human Sphere, the Dire Foes storyline, updated Dire Foes, except Bipandra, por supuesto and some nice artwork.
Everyone who wanted them already has the Dire Foes, IMO. Outside of a few standouts(Red Veil's in particular), most are "Meh".
Will there actually be a Paradiso N3? As far as I recall, all the Paradiso units were in Human Sphere N3 and everything else was supposed to be in Acheron Falls (or the "next book after HSN3")
I imagine that instead of a new edition of Paradiso we might get a new book with campaign/spec ops rules that includes a reworked version of the Paradiso campaign as well as a new campaign.
or they may just decide that campaigns are better handled as events instead of as a focus of a book, and that the Spec Ops rules could be included somewhere else. Not that they really need to be. As it stands now they mostly just exist as an option for tournament play and their full rules could just be inserted into the ITS rules doc.
Absolutionis wrote: Will there actually be a Paradiso N3? As far as I recall, all the Paradiso units were in Human Sphere N3 and everything else was supposed to be in Acheron Falls (or the "next book after HSN3")
Supposedly, Acheron Falls(mwhahaha) since it's been pushed back will be featuring Svalarheima, etc--while Paradiso N3 was slated to have the next set of Sectorials(Varuna, Invincible Army, Tunguska, etc).
.Mikes. wrote: Acheron Falls is due for release just after Half Life 3.
Ahhhhh!
Don't even joke like that!!!!
I would've thought that the Svalarheima stuff would be more popular that this - I mean, Jotums, amirite?!? - and would then mean we'd see them sooner rather than later!
Well, we have a nice book and LE mini coming. We have a lot of angry Yu Jing players and a company that had no fethin' plan for calming them. Not good marketing at all, given that the anger distracted from the new JSA stuff. Never draw attention away from new products.
Adepticon in 2 weeks. A long time to let players fume.
I would've thought that the Svalarheima stuff would be more popular that this - I mean, Jotums, amirite?!? - and would then mean we'd see them sooner rather than later!
I wonder... do you think those closed battle lists in Treason are part of a public beta, and/or are there to gauge interest? They know from their ITS / Army data what people are taking to events. If those Blizzard squads arent even being used at all they may decide to hold back due to lack of interest.
I would've thought that the Svalarheima stuff would be more popular that this - I mean, Jotums, amirite?!? - and would then mean we'd see them sooner rather than later!
I wonder... do you think those closed battle lists in Treason are part of a public beta, and/or are there to gauge interest? They know from their ITS / Army data what people are taking to events. If those Blizzard squads arent even being used at all they may decide to hold back due to lack of interest.
They were. The issue with the CBLs was that it also included some 'proxy' units.
Well, we have a nice book and LE mini coming. We have a lot of angry Yu Jing players and a company that had no fethin' plan for calming them. Not good marketing at all, given that the anger distracted from the new JSA stuff. Never draw attention away from new products.
Adepticon in 2 weeks. A long time to let players fume.
Do we have a lot of angry Yujing players? I've only seen a few complaining. Most seem content to wait and see what happens, or simply aren't bothered by this. I know as a Yujing player I'm not really bothered, although I certainly am curious. Maybe because I know we already went through something similar with the Exrah and it ended up working out fine for Combined Army. I think CB did have a plan for calming Yujing players, and it was telling them that more Yujing stuff will be out later this year. Its also widely speculated that a new sectorial is on the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm actually pretty eager to see what changes come for Yujing. It hurt a lot when CA lost Exrah, but very quickly we got Umbra legates, Rodaks, Unidrons, Fractaa and Maakrep, followed by a new sectorial about a year later. Arguably CA was in a worse place than Yujing is now (since CA was always fairly behind the other original 6 factions in releases), but I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar for Yujing over the next year.
Multiple rage threads on the official forum. I suspect a few non Yu Jing players who have concerns that their faction is next are chiming in. Since I have 300 points of Yu Jing (courtesy of Red Veil + Beyond RV) I guess I am a Yu Jing player, or will be, if I ever play more than the Red Veil Scenarios with them.
I'm disappointed CB did not plan this better, but not really surprised. As I've said, simply dangling the IA in front of everyone would have been such a good move. I expect it to be a very good sectorial, when it arrives. CB has yet to say much about forthcoming Yu Jing releases, at least that I have seen. Possibly at Adepticon.
Anybody see the BoW battle report?
What a slaughter.
Should have played a practice game first to get out all the bad rolls. Carlos wiped the floor with the other guy.
Red Harvest wrote: It's a reaction to having something arbitrarily taken away, not to changes per se. It's an entirely foreseeable reaction.
Still, the angst reaches some pretty bizarre levels. Honestly, this one isn't too bad. There's a LGS owner threatening to stop carrying PP products if they change immunities elsewhere that is a more prominent reaction weighing on my thoughts.
I would've thought that the Svalarheima stuff would be more popular that this - I mean, Jotums, amirite?!? - and would then mean we'd see them sooner rather than later!
I wonder... do you think those closed battle lists in Treason are part of a public beta, and/or are there to gauge interest? They know from their ITS / Army data what people are taking to events. If those Blizzard squads arent even being used at all they may decide to hold back due to lack of interest.
Good question - but I have no idea!
Also, anyone have a link the the old "Treason" closed battle lists so I can...refresh my memory?
I would've thought that the Svalarheima stuff would be more popular that this - I mean, Jotums, amirite?!? - and would then mean we'd see them sooner rather than later!
I wonder... do you think those closed battle lists in Treason are part of a public beta, and/or are there to gauge interest? They know from their ITS / Army data what people are taking to events. If those Blizzard squads arent even being used at all they may decide to hold back due to lack of interest.
Good question - but I have no idea!
Also, anyone have a link the the old "Treason" closed battle lists so I can...refresh my memory?
ImAGeek wrote: Plus, it’s only really a handful of people on the forums that are that annoyed by this, they’re just very vocal about it.
Considering the small size of the active posting base over at the official forums the number of folks rankled by the changes actually make up a decent cross-section of the regular posting community. There are also scant few defending it as a good idea and even several of the folks who play Yu Jing that aren't expressing their displeasure are basically doing so on the back of a hope that the next release for the game is the Invincible Army (which certain comments on the BoW videos by Bostria have dampened a bit). Considering the normal tone of the official boards, that isn't exactly a warm reception.
Things sound little better on the Spanish side as well where apparently the disgruntled Yu Jing folks are attempting to organize a strike for the next global campaign (not that Yu Jing was going to do well after losing a sectorial anyways).
In all honesty, the number of outlets to discuss Infinity online are pretty limited. Dakka has a good range of opinions, but the official section is kind of dead and the only active place to post about it is this thread (which is naturally for news and rumours, even when it does get off track). Places like Reddit and Facebook tend to have unusually draconian moderators and so are even more of an echo-chamber than the official forums. That basically leaves 4chan general threads for earnest discussion about the game where you tend to be free of a lot of the warcor spin you get in other locations (and for the record, discussion about the split ate up three/four general threads this week, and reception was certainly not very positive).
Overall, while it wasn't an unmitigated disaster, CB definitely bungled their messaging on this one and soured a lot of folks on something that should have hyped the community up. Most of the folks that are upset aren't even necessarily upset about the split itself (though many are, because losing 15 profiles is never a great feeling), but rather CB's lack of response to the fairly obvious reaction it drew from many players. Their lack of communication, beyond telling Yu Jing players what they're losing and acknowledging that releasing the Shikami just before yoinking it away from Yu Jing, has been pretty bad.
A lot of the negative reactions were being held back to see what they did this week, and they basically just sort of ignored it. Most people were hoping for some glimmer. Some modified AVA's in vanilla to fill things out, a hint that the Invincible Army would be dropping soon or even next, or even just some new preview profiles to fill some gaps while we wait on a new sectorial release. Instead CB gave the usual eye-rolling "drinking their tears" comments, hinted that IA may not be coming this year at all (and instead said the already bloated ISS were getting more things) and generally declined to do anything other than attempt to hype the new release. As PR work goes, it was pretty tone deaf and it was obvious they were not prepared for the logical reactions to their actions.
CB's problems of poor communication and a lack of forward planning basically biting them in the again. After nearly a decade and a half in the business and this not being their first "we've decided to invalidate your models!" rodeo they still seem to be making the same blunders.
I think it’s Rumble on Route 66 this weekend, I think they’ve done seminars there before, so we might get some info this weekend.
We can certainly hope at least, but after how they've handled things like this in the past I'm just going to stay jaded and cynical until they prove otherwise. Works well for the rest of life, should do me just fine here.
Article next week on what is going to happen to Yu Jing. Sauce: Koni on the Spanish side of the wall. Or Forum. I'm not really sure. I haven't slept. Can't do writing. String. Words. Together.
Hopefully it isn't more bad news, and I'm glad they will be specifically addressing the issue, even if this is a blog post I would have preferred in line with the announcement. That it comes after the media buzz has me thinking it is probably more bad news but... well, see comment above.
I would argue it is neither here or there, 4chan can be an equal echo chamber since everybody not wanting to hear opinion A goes there to hear opinion B.
My personal opinion is it is a mixed reception the extremely vocal ends are minorities the vast in between are undecided and everybody has an (different) opinion on how it should have been handled, it is definitely the first time CB tried it and while much of the reasoning behind it will be more obvious after the book is released, it is a learning experience for all involved and much feedback is collected from the event.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I would argue it is neither here or there, 4chan can be an equal echo chamber since everybody not wanting to hear opinion A goes there to hear opinion B.
My personal opinion is it is a mixed reception the extremely vocal ends are minorities the vast in between are undecided and everybody has an (different) opinion on how it should have been handled, it is definitely the first time CB tried it and while much of the reasoning behind it will be more obvious after the book is released, it is a learning experience for all involved and much feedback is collected from the event.
It's not the first time CB has "tried it". They have no defense that is worth hearing with regards to this since you would think that the Exrah deletion, the MRRF+SEF shelving, and fricking Ko Dali would have been experiences they would have taken to heart. Hell, the removal of profiles(see: HMG profiles being removed from many drop troopers) and that reaction should have been a good expectation to gauge.
I've said multiple times before that they have a public image problem and things like this are a big part of it. Saying things like "drinking their tears" isn't a Good Thing, 'teasing' that there will be "something that will be hated", etc isn't a Good Thing. The smart thing to have done this time around, rather than talking about how "You need to read the fluff!" to explain their reasoning here? They should have also teased what will be happening later this year for the Imperial Service.
But hey, you know this. You also know that the official forums are an echo chamber that you allow to be very hostile towards opinions that are not part of the groupthink.
Article next week on what is going to happen to Yu Jing. Sauce: Koni on the Spanish side of the wall. Or Forum. I'm not really sure. I haven't slept. Can't do writing. String. Words. Together.
Hopefully it isn't more bad news, and I'm glad they will be specifically addressing the issue, even if this is a blog post I would have preferred in line with the announcement. That it comes after the media buzz has me thinking it is probably more bad news but... well, see comment above.
You can basically rest assured that they didn't expect to need to put up an article. This has happened before, it will happen again.
@Kanluwen
Not at all, none of your examples hold any ground Exrahs simply did not sell at all, their removal mean nothing really, FRM and Shasvastii is a postponing to hopefully bring at a later date something the community will find cool and exciting, Ko Dali was a character that was overpowered and needed to be removed or drastically changed so drastically (well it was her one skill anyway) that removing her would be the same as changing her, at least they gave her an interesting story in her removal, removing HMGs duh, after the changes in N3 who would want to have troopers designed t be close to the enemy with a weapon that penalises you for been close to the enemy...
Uprising is moving the story forward, much will make more sense after you read the book and it is a first time it was attempted, it is a learning experience for all of us.
PsychoticStorm wrote: @Kanluwen
Not at all, none of your examples hold any ground Exrahs simply did not sell at all, their removal mean nothing really, FRM and Shasvastii is a postponing to hopefully bring at a later date something the community will find cool and exciting, Ko Dali was a character that was overpowered and needed to be removed or drastically changed so drastically (well it was her one skill anyway) that removing her would be the same as changing her, at least they gave her an interesting story in her removal, removing HMGs duh, after the changes in N3 who would want to have troopers designed t be close to the enemy with a weapon that penalises you for been close to the enemy...
You're literally ignoring that I didn't say anything about those specific events but rather the reaction to them. There's a reason why the term "the fanatic peat" exists.
And no, "removing HMGs from airborne troopers" wasn't an across the board thing. Hellcats still have them; Hellcats even got an upgraded profile with them also having an E/Marat.
Paracommandos still feature them as well. I'm sure there's more lurking around but still, fact is that there are still places where that profile exists.
Uprising is moving the story forward, much will make more sense after you read the book and it is a first time it was attempted, it is a learning experience for all of us.
It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
Simple fact: It's not something where people should be saying "It'll make more sense after you read the book!". People who feel like their army was just invalidated, rightly or wrongly, won't be interested in buying the book. They won't care about the fluff. They're pissed off.
What would have been the smart thing to do was to build this not just as a "Japanese Secessonist Army"(which is lazy on their part; they likely wanted to make it so that JSA remained tied to the Japanese faction) and giving the Japanese State Army and Secessonist Army both a place to exist. One stays loyal to YJ, one goes rogue. Replace the "rogue" elements with Loyalist variants using similar gear but different colors and voila, two armies out of one range.
That's basically all Uprising seems to have done anyways. There's very little "new" from the way it looks. Brawlers, a few characters(the Moon Knight homage), and the Troops+Remotes Link Team ideas that I pitched for Bolts and NCA(and was told by many that "it's OP, it won't happen...yet apparently it's okay for Druze? ) and new ways to "Buy our stuff!" from CB.
Kanluwen wrote: It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
Simple fact: It's not something where people should be saying "It'll make more sense after you read the book!". People who feel like their army was just invalidated, rightly or wrongly, won't be interested in buying the book. They won't care about the fluff. They're pissed off.
What would have been the smart thing to do was to build this not just as a "Japanese Secessonist Army"(which is lazy on their part; they likely wanted to make it so that JSA remained tied to the Japanese faction) and giving the Japanese State Army and Secessonist Army both a place to exist. One stays loyal to YJ, one goes rogue. Replace the "rogue" elements with Loyalist variants using similar gear but different colors and voila, two armies out of one range.
That's basically all Uprising seems to have done anyways. There's very little "new" from the way it looks. Brawlers, a few characters(the Moon Knight homage), and the Troops+Remotes Link Team ideas that I pitched for Bolts and NCA(and was told by many that "it's OP, it won't happen...yet apparently it's okay for Druze? ) and new ways to "Buy our stuff!" from CB.
Bolded for emphasis.
This change has removed over $100 of minis from my Yu Jing force (and no, "you can proxy" them isn't a great compromise because with a huge mini collection as well as mostly playing in a casual home environment I have plenty of models to proxy with already and never needed CB's "okay" to do so in the first place). I've been waiting on Keisotsu resculpts for years. Had they performed a more logical split with the old JSA remaining on as the loyalist force then I likely would have grabbed JSA minis simply to replace some of the aging bits of my collection that saw heavy use (especially bloody Keisotsu).
As it is, the book contains nothing I need. No new profiles for armies I play, no new armies I want to play (even Ikari Company would require more purchases than I want to put in to several different factions to make worthwhile). Regardless of how justified it is in the background, if the book doesn't appeal to me in the first place, it isn't getting bought. I'm not handing CB more money after they basically just invalidated over $100 worth of stuff I had previously bought from them (unless I buy more stuff from them of course).
They've taken me from a position of wanting to give them money to a position of holding back my ongoing gaming bucks. For the first time since the game dropped I am not grabbing their latest book and have very little interest in a large model release that would have otherwise contained a great many new minis that I would have grabbed for my vanilla Yu Jing force.
I'm not livid, I'm not frothing mad, just disappointed and vaguely confused at how they thought this whole thing was a good idea. Perhaps next week's article will help, maybe it wont, I'll wait and see. But if their plan to get people buying in to new armies is to pull the rug out from under players, laugh, and then ask for more money then I really have to question the kind of business acumen they've accrued over the past 13 years. Hopefully their feedback tells them that doing this again will be bad and it will save other factions from having to suffer a similar fate.
Uprising is moving the story forward, much will make more sense after you read the book and it is a first time it was attempted, it is a learning experience for all of us.
It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
I read this while not logged in, so quoting because this is really very true.
For example, Wyrd build their whole Malifaux setting on an evolving story, including those with player input. Outside of the ongoing story they dictate, they do worldwide campaigns whose outcomes actually affect the story and recently a campaign where the communities victories 'built' a set of new characters that we actually got rules and models for. At the most recent gencon, they asked the community to vote on a showdown between two popular masters, and the outcome was one of the most popular masters in the game died. Flat out died. A secondary charatcer, who also had in game rules and a model, also died. The fluff itself, masters allegiances to factions are severely shifting, with outright betrayals to their own factions. Some are even on Earth now doing something else.
But in game, nothing has changed. Because removing peoples access to models they've bought and paid for is never a good thing to do. Fluff is great when it adds depth, but never use it to take away what people have paid money for.
Same thing in DARK AGE (a game where the tagline is "Everything dies!") - where even if characters die, they're still completely usable in games for the factions that they were a part of.
You're literally ignoring that I didn't say anything about those specific events but rather the reaction to them. There's a reason why the term "the fanatic peat" exists.
And no, "removing HMGs from airborne troopers" wasn't an across the board thing. Hellcats still have them; Hellcats even got an upgraded profile with them also having an E/Marat.
Paracommandos still feature them as well. I'm sure there's more lurking around but still, fact is that there are still places where that profile exists.
Oh please stop, you referenced on the events directly and equated them all been the same, as I pointed out to you the events have no connection and the reaction is not similar or relevant, you cannot equate the removal of 4 models who never sold, nobody bought them and were a money sink to the company to a move that advances the storyline and affects a big part of the player base.
HMG do exist in some troop profiles almost nobody takes them though, I am guessing because Spitfire is an easier and more flexible solution than using an AD or infiltrating trooper to lurk just outside your deployment zone to take advantage of the HMG sweet range.
It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
Simple fact: It's not something where people should be saying "It'll make more sense after you read the book!". People who feel like their army was just invalidated, rightly or wrongly, won't be interested in buying the book. They won't care about the fluff. They're pissed off.
What would have been the smart thing to do was to build this not just as a "Japanese Secessonist Army"(which is lazy on their part; they likely wanted to make it so that JSA remained tied to the Japanese faction) and giving the Japanese State Army and Secessonist Army both a place to exist. One stays loyal to YJ, one goes rogue. Replace the "rogue" elements with Loyalist variants using similar gear but different colors and voila, two armies out of one range.
That's basically all Uprising seems to have done anyways. There's very little "new" from the way it looks. Brawlers, a few characters(the Moon Knight homage), and the Troops+Remotes Link Team ideas that I pitched for Bolts and NCA(and was told by many that "it's OP, it won't happen...yet apparently it's okay for Druze? ) and new ways to "Buy our stuff!" from CB.
I think even the slowest of us would understand that I was referring to CB directly I do not think I need to spell it out letter by letter that I am referring to CB doing it for the first time in a thread specifically for CB and discussing a decision CB made, I do not remember were CB took jabs at GW maybe you have a quote handy? sure everybody can look at what others but no company is the same what GW does does not mean it will be the same to what CB does, different beasts, I am afraid I cannot discuss it more before the book hits the readers but trust me it will make more sense then. You do understand that by the fluff once Japan split there would be no way loyal Japanese troops would remain under Yu Jing, not because these Japanese would not be loyal, but because Yu Jing would not entrust them with a knife, let alone a functioning military formation.
Troops+ remotes is an interesting fireteam combination too bad it is a 1.5 SWC the HRL brawler is a far better choice than the remote in almost all situations, now if it was a pathfinder or a fugazi? (or a sierra) that would indeed be broken
Uprising is moving the story forward, much will make more sense after you read the book and it is a first time it was attempted, it is a learning experience for all of us.
It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
I read this while not logged in, so quoting because this is really very true.
For example, Wyrd build their whole Malifaux setting on an evolving story, including those with player input. Outside of the ongoing story they dictate, they do worldwide campaigns whose outcomes actually affect the story and recently a campaign where the communities victories 'built' a set of new characters that we actually got rules and models for. At the most recent gencon, they asked the community to vote on a showdown between two popular masters, and the outcome was one of the most popular masters in the game died. Flat out died. A secondary charatcer, who also had in game rules and a model, also died. The fluff itself, masters allegiances to factions are severely shifting, with outright betrayals to their own factions. Some are even on Earth now doing something else.
But in game, nothing has changed. Because removing peoples access to models they've bought and paid for is never a good thing to do. Fluff is great when it adds depth, but never use it to take away what people have paid money for.
Alpharius wrote:Same thing in DARK AGE (a game where the tagline is "Everything dies!") - where even if characters die, they're still completely usable in games for the factions that they were a part of.
Even if only in 'historical' sense!
But yeah, all the minis are still usable.
No Exrah there...
Isn't this really a cowards stance? "Oh yes, we totally changed the fluff and took bold decisions to involve the players and we put out a really popular option at stake" but not really it does not matter because nothing really changed.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Isn't this really a cowards stance? "Oh yes, we totally changed the fluff and took bold decisions to involve the players and we put out a really popular option at stake" but not really it does not matter because nothing really changed.
No, it's a 'we respect that fact that you've paid money for our products, so while we're creating a story that changes, we will still let you use what you bought in the way you intended to use it' stance.
There comes a point where fluff and game rules need to diverge, because they're doing different things.
You're literally ignoring that I didn't say anything about those specific events but rather the reaction to them. There's a reason why the term "the fanatic peat" exists.
And no, "removing HMGs from airborne troopers" wasn't an across the board thing. Hellcats still have them; Hellcats even got an upgraded profile with them also having an E/Marat.
Paracommandos still feature them as well. I'm sure there's more lurking around but still, fact is that there are still places where that profile exists.
Oh please stop, you referenced on the events directly and equated them all been the same, as I pointed out to you the events have no connection and the reaction is not similar or relevant, you cannot equate the removal of 4 models who never sold, nobody bought them and were a money sink to the company to a move that advances the storyline and affects a big part of the player base.
Kanluwen wrote:It's not the first time CB has "tried it". They have no defense that is worth hearing with regards to this since you would think that the Exrah deletion, the MRRF+SEF shelving, and fricking Ko Dali would have been experiences they would have taken to heart. Hell, the removal of profiles(see: HMG profiles being removed from many drop troopers) and that reaction should have been a good expectation to gauge.
Want to try again? No comment on the details surrounding the event, I simply pointed out that they have experience with removing items and the fan reaction related to it.
HMG do exist in some troop profiles almost nobody takes them though, I am guessing because Spitfire is an easier and more flexible solution than using an AD or infiltrating trooper to lurk just outside your deployment zone to take advantage of the HMG sweet range.
Or because the models are either outdated or in a less than stellar Sectorial right now(Para-Commandos) or hard to come by.
I mean, you know that the Hellcat with HMG was discontinued right? It came packed with the Hacker originally who now comes packed with the Boarding Shotgun model.
The Spitfire Hellcat, however, is in Beyond Icestorm.
It's not "a first time it was attempted", it's the first time that Corvus Belli attempted it. Other companies have done similar before--Corvus Belli loves to take potshots at GW, yet they seemingly failed to take notice of the pushback that players saw with the Tempestus book?
Simple fact: It's not something where people should be saying "It'll make more sense after you read the book!". People who feel like their army was just invalidated, rightly or wrongly, won't be interested in buying the book. They won't care about the fluff. They're pissed off.
What would have been the smart thing to do was to build this not just as a "Japanese Secessonist Army"(which is lazy on their part; they likely wanted to make it so that JSA remained tied to the Japanese faction) and giving the Japanese State Army and Secessonist Army both a place to exist. One stays loyal to YJ, one goes rogue. Replace the "rogue" elements with Loyalist variants using similar gear but different colors and voila, two armies out of one range.
That's basically all Uprising seems to have done anyways. There's very little "new" from the way it looks. Brawlers, a few characters(the Moon Knight homage), and the Troops+Remotes Link Team ideas that I pitched for Bolts and NCA(and was told by many that "it's OP, it won't happen...yet apparently it's okay for Druze? ) and new ways to "Buy our stuff!" from CB.
I think even the slowest of us would understand that I was referring to CB directly I do not think I need to spell it out letter by letter that I am referring to CB doing it for the first time in a thread specifically for CB and discussing a decision CB made, I do not remember were CB took jabs at GW maybe you have a quote handy? sure everybody can look at what others but no company is the same what GW does does not mean it will be the same to what CB does, different beasts, I am afraid I cannot discuss it more before the book hits the readers but trust me it will make more sense then. You do understand that by the fluff once Japan split there would be no way loyal Japanese troops would remain under Yu Jing, not because these Japanese would not be loyal, but because Yu Jing would not entrust them with a knife, let alone a functioning military formation.
"Trust me, the book explains it!". Great. When will the lore be available for free to read? Because that's what will be important to people.
Troops+ remotes is an interesting fireteam combination too bad it is a 1.5 SWC the HRL brawler is a far better choice than the remote in almost all situations, now if it was a pathfinder or a fugazi? (or a sierra) that would indeed be broken
It doesn't matter if it's "broken" or not. Simple fact is that, as I've said before, CB has no interest in doing the work when it comes to backdating stuff. I suggested that as a way of adding utility and some flavor to Neoterra and its Bolts--yet it gets stolen for a stupid book full of "NonAligned Armies".
Isn't this really a cowards stance? "Oh yes, we totally changed the fluff and took bold decisions to involve the players and we put out a really popular option at stake" but not really it does not matter because nothing really changed.
"A coward's stance"? Really? Like courage comes into play at all with this decision; simple fact is it's a way to make more money.
I don't fault them for wanting to make money, I will fault them(and you) for such a ridiculous defense of it.
I do not see it as respecting anybody, saying that you give agency to the players and then do nothing to impact the meta despite the players decision is about that is extremely disrespectful and an attempt to have the pie and eat it.
You cannot create a global event were you announce a world shattering event will happen, involve the community and after its conclusion go on as if nothing changed.
Sure your decision impacted the game here the most popular master died now go on and have fun playing with him as if nothing happened.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I do not see it as respecting anybody, saying that you give agency to the players and then do nothing to impact the meta despite the players decision is about that is extremely disrespectful and an attempt to have the pie and eat it.
Sorry, when did we play an event that led to the Japanese rising up against the Yu Jing Empire?
You cannot create a global event were you announce a world shattering event will happen, involve the community and after its conclusion go on as if nothing changed.
Sure your decision impacted the game here the most popular master died now go on and have fun playing with him as if nothing happened.
That is damned disrespectful to the community.
Er, no. "Disrespectful to the community" is doing things like claiming that they package things like they do "to make costs bearable for the players". It's doing things like telling people they're "drinking their tears" or teasing upcoming things as "whinefests".
I can think of way more things that are "disrespectful to the community" than allowing for legacy options to exist.
Alright, so planned obsolescence at the whim of the game developer for potentially hundred of dollars of miniatures is "brave and respectful".
Respecting people's collections and not removing their ability to use miniatures they bought as the things they bought them for is "cowardly and disrespectful".
That is some mighty fine spin you're attempting to put on this, but I think it is pretty easy to see which one of these is good for the consumer and which one screws them over.
For my money, I'd prefer not to encourage companies to inject planned obsolescence in to my war gaming, thanks.
To stop being so doom and gloom, I can’t wait to get the Brawlers. The Druze sectorial is basically a selection of stuff I loved from QK plus a new cool looking LI and also Hunzakuts because sure why not.
Ronin_eX wrote: ...This change has removed over $100 of minis from my Yu Jing force (and no, "you can proxy" them isn't a great compromise because with a huge mini collection as well as mostly playing in a casual home environment I have plenty of models to proxy with already and never needed CB's "okay" to do so in the first place)....
This Yu Jing player, also a WarCor -- I believe he ran the Infinity events at the NOVA Open tournament this past year-- is selling his JSA stuff https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752148.page I wonder how many others will be selling their JSA or their Yu Jing? That is not an insignificant amount of minis for sale either.
Okay, if we are going positive... I did pre-order the book. I'm sure to like it. I know that LE Brawler looks a fine mini. Expanding to the Druze Bayram is really easy for a QK player. Especially one who has the Pan-O remotes. ( from my ASA)
Man, I hope there is more too it, right now its a skeletal force.
I hope they keep Jethro though, and that the other Outrage characters have profiles (even if they are technically 'dead' - they existed and fought before the events in the manga didnt they?)
If they cant keep the JSA options usable to YuJing AND have the new JSA force exist then, for consistency they shouldn't have playable characters that have been canonically been killed in the game.
Ronin_eX wrote: ...This change has removed over $100 of minis from my Yu Jing force (and no, "you can proxy" them isn't a great compromise because with a huge mini collection as well as mostly playing in a casual home environment I have plenty of models to proxy with already and never needed CB's "okay" to do so in the first place)....
This Yu Jing player, also a WarCor -- I believe he ran the Infinity events at the NOVA Open tournament this past year-- is selling his JSA stuff https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752148.page I wonder how many others will be selling their JSA or their Yu Jing? That is not an insignificant amount of minis for sale either.
A bit ago I mentioned frustration with how people react to change and here we've got a pretty good example. There's basically two versions of the "selling my collection" narrative players can go with:
1) I have a large number of JSA models that are no longer available to me as I play Vanilla Yu Jing exclusively and selling them as they are of no use to me.
2) I am selling my JSA army because its no longer part of Yu Jing, even though its functionally identical.
I see far too much of the latter, but in either case, nothing seems less rational to me that making it clear you're selling something in anger. I mean, in number 1's spot you're benefiting from a renewed interest in the sectorial creating demand for you models. But go on; get angry on the internet. That'll hurt'em. Nothing will move sales quite as good as letting someone know how horribly abused you were from owning the things you're selling them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
plastictrees wrote: If they cant keep the JSA options usable to YuJing AND have the new JSA force exist then, for consistency they shouldn't have playable characters that have been canonically been killed in the game.
Is anyone actually dead in the fluff that's playable in the game? I thought they just brought people back with cubes for the most part. The times I've generally seen named characters without rules seems to be because they actually died somehow. Look at StarCo for a good example....
Ronin_eX wrote: ...This change has removed over $100 of minis from my Yu Jing force (and no, "you can proxy" them isn't a great compromise because with a huge mini collection as well as mostly playing in a casual home environment I have plenty of models to proxy with already and never needed CB's "okay" to do so in the first place)....
This Yu Jing player, also a WarCor -- I believe he ran the Infinity events at the NOVA Open tournament this past year-- is selling his JSA stuff https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752148.page I wonder how many others will be selling their JSA or their Yu Jing? That is not an insignificant amount of minis for sale either.
A bit ago I mentioned frustration with how people react to change and here we've got a pretty good example. There's basically two versions of the "selling my collection" narrative players can go with:
1) I have a large number of JSA models that are no longer available to me as I play Vanilla Yu Jing exclusively and selling them as they are of no use to me.
2) I am selling my JSA army because its no longer part of Yu Jing, even though its functionally identical.
I see far too much of the latter, but in either case, nothing seems less rational to me that making it clear you're selling something in anger. I mean, in number 1's spot you're benefiting from a renewed interest in the sectorial creating demand for you models. But go on; get angry on the internet. That'll hurt'em. Nothing will move sales quite as good as letting someone know how horribly abused you were from owning the things you're selling them.
Its because it fits their own personal narrative better, so it has to be that way..
As I said before, I wasn't happy about losing Exrah (which were actually really eliminated from the game, not just given their own separate army((and a second army they can also be used in)) but I was eventually happy with what happened to Combined army later that year. At the time I remember many people claiming they were quitting the game or selling their Combined Army models. But when N3 came out a few months later full of shiny new CA stuff those people were all still there and all excited about their new toys.
I can understand some of the frustration other Yujing players are feeling over losing access to models that they paid for. (On the other hand, if you own even a small number of JSA models you're probably close to having a 100-150 point JSA or Ikari army. So why not give that a try?) but I think a lot of people who are upset over Yujing losing a bunch of profiles and being less viable are over reacting (or at least premature in their complaints)
jake wrote: (On the other hand, if you own even a small number of JSA models you're probably close to having a 100-150 point JSA or Ikari army. So why not give that a try?)
Because I've had 9 years to hop on board the JSA train, in that time I've proxied them a number of times to try them out but they simply have never appealed to me as a force. Meanwhile, the actual JSA models I have access to make a pretty terrible JSA force without additional filling out (yes, even as a 100 or 150 force). Roles that are needed for the full JSA list are absent because my collection is focused on specifically useful pieces for vanilla. I enjoy playing vanilla, it's what I started with and the overall style it had access to was very appealing with an interesting combination of viable tactics that included quite a few Japanese units in to the mix. I've had Japanese elements in my vanilla forces since before sectorials were even a thing.
If I wanted to play JSA, then I would have started already, I liked them as an element of vanilla but their sectorial's play style isn't for me. So shuffling all of their profiles beyond my reach basically cuts out a large chunk of the army I've enjoyed for nine years and without a clear indicator of how this will change the faction I've been invested in for over a decade things are feeling pretty bad right now. And having already waited for them to fix the sectorial I enjoy playing (because 2nd Edition ISS was pretty damn terrible straight out of the gate and only got worse once Paradiso-style missions became the norm) I'm not sure if I have another several years of patience in me while they fix vanilla after gutting it of a third of its profiles (and make no mistake, many of those profiles saw frequent use and many of them filled utterly unique roles that other units left in the faction cannot replicate).
If we're getting a sectorial filled back in in a few months and it comes with a bunch of vanilla-relevant profiles then that'll will clear the air quite a bit, but so far CB have given very little indication that there is a fix waiting in the wings and many folks are fearing that vanilla Yu Jing will be left hanging like Shas and MRRF at this point. And they haven't helped messaging with the "drinking Yu Jing tears" comments, talk about it being a hard year for Yu Jing (implying no quick fix incoming), while also informing us that our already over-stuffed sectorial will get more stuffed (which may not help vanilla at all since many unit additions to ISS have been grab bags of bounty hunters and mercs that vanilla can't even touch). Basically, if they had a plan to help Yu Jing out after knocking us down to a single sectorial with a massive chunk of profiles yoinked out, it would have been handy to hear about it before they tried hyping up something they likely wanted us to buy in to, because I'm currently very much not in the spending mood.
But hey, we'll see next week whenever they get around to posting the article.
There are two major trains of thought about fluff and game those that think fluff and game are separate and those that think they should be hand in hand.
I support the later, if you change your fluff it must have impact on the game if i does not I have no respect for the fluff of your IP.
More so if you make an event pumping the player community for changes in the fluff.
Now vanilla Yu Jing are mostly not affected by the change, the only big loss is the Raiden, the only profile used by everybody, who can be replaced by major Lunah, Sinobu and Oniwaban are much more specialised Ninjas, realistically the Ninja can do what they do only slightly less effective, keisotsu and tokusetsu are just been used to save points and Aragoto hackers were really rarely used, practically nobody used any of the other 10 units that left and from the 6 units used 2 were used just for points save and two are just better ninjas.
If we're getting a sectorial filled back in in a few months and it comes with a bunch of vanilla-relevant profiles then that'll will clear the air quite a bit
Well, as I've said a few times now, there's been exactly one example of anything similar ever happening in the game, and that was exactly the result.
I just noticed that Keisotsu don't have a LGL in their new profiles. I noticed that the MSR was missing, but I missed this. Its kind of a weird omission, isn't it? It feels a little like they just don't want to do an swc box, so they cut out the models that are less likely to see sales as blisters. Which is too bad. I don't plan on replacing my current Keisotsu, and I get a lot of use out of the LGL model. I guess she'll just become a normal Combi Keisotsu.
I suppose I’ve got the benefit of there being no official presence in my group. The JSA units are in the 3rd edition books, and always will be, so I’ll continue using them in my non-sectoral forces.
I like my De Fersen. Maybe with a head from somewhere the new one could make a decent Sepulchre (all that junk around his neck is the holo array or something?).
AndrewGPaul wrote: I suppose I’ve got the benefit of there being no official presence in my group. The JSA units are in the 3rd edition books, and always will be, so I’ll continue using them in my non-sectoral forces.
just download the current version of the Army Builder which has the intact Yu Jing and don't bother updating it.
Hakim (imaginative name, that) is for the RTF? Intriguing. Will it be an Akbar doctor or doctor plus?
De Fersen is now a Space Marine® librarian? Hard pass on this mini.
Red Harvest wrote: Hakim (imaginative name, that) is for the RTF? Intriguing. Will it be an Akbar doctor or doctor plus?
Current speculation is it's probably going to be a cheaper Akbar doctor. The problem with Haqqislam is it's hard to make a dedicated Doctor without being redundant due to the amazing amount of combat Doctors the faction already has. A cheaper, 20ish point Akbar Doctor would be something new.
It's definitely an updated design for the Nasmat. After the Kanren dossier showing Mad Traps and neither of the blisters having them, I don't expect models to actually follow the dossier anymore, so I'm guessing they were put on there to show the new design and that's it.
Assuming of course that it's a blister. If it's part of a box, I'd assume the new Nasmats will be there.
Raicho resculpt! I really like the original, but unfortunately it came right at the end of the original Morats, and just doesn't fit super well with the more modern design. Plus its kind of small. Still love it, but will also love a new verision. Also, great excuse to try a double raicho list!
I wonder if a big Morat release like that means they have any plans for the sectorial?
jake wrote: Raicho resculpt! I really like the original, but unfortunately it came right at the end of the original Morats, and just doesn't fit super well with the more modern design. Plus its kind of small. Still love it, but will also love a new verision. Also, great excuse to try a double raicho list!
I wonder if a big Morat release like that means they have any plans for the sectorial?
No, Bostria literally just mentioned the Raicho. He said they're happy with MAF but Raicho needs love.
I don't normally do a "Fixed That For You", but I feel this one's appropriate.
They were dumb to try and play the "Some products sold separately" game with us regarding the pilots/crabbots. There are some who will always argue that the presence of those things would "raise the price too high", but they're full of it.
Red Harvest wrote: How about the TAGand the pilot don't fit in the blisterbox?
Also garbage excuse. There's so much wasted spaces in these boxes that it's...well, it's wasteful! With how everything is put into baggies and the two spongey foam inserts, there's enough room at least for the pilot/deployable bot in addition to the TAG.
No article yet. Well, 13 days 'til the adepticon seminar.
Or, you know, you could accept that this forum is full of armchair company managers and it's basically how discussion goes here and accept it. Some people disagree with what CB does, and forums are a place to voice that. It doesn't mean they dislike CB or their product.
I know that the whole "they said they couldn't fit a TAG into a blister, but they totally did" thing keeps coming up. Did any of you actually see the Tik that came in the tournament pack? Yes, it was crammed into a blister, but it was a really, really tight fit. Tight enough that after I opened it I couldn't get it closed again. So while it did fit, CB may have felt like it wasn't a viable packaging solution. Too crammed, likely to rupture, likely to damage parts (the shoulder pad of my Tik model was all scratched up in the package). I don't know if this actually was the the reason they decided to double pack it with the other TAG, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
I saw it, I didn't think it was that bad. Admittedly, I didn't open it (we had both that and Joe Turner for that tournament for 1st and 2nd, I chose Joe).
I have for sure seen blisters that were even more overstuffed (Clan Wars infantry, for example), but I felt like it was pretty stuffed. I can see why they wouldn't want to do it as a retail package.
On the other hand, it does seem to me like they could have more easily offered both models separately in plain brown boxes from their website. I can think of a few reasons not to do that, but I really think they could have if they wanted to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do like that some of the new JSA units have PanO weapons. Thats a neat touch.
jake wrote: ...It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
Agreed. CB would have done themselves a huge favor by saying something like that, or "retailers like the boxes for display purposes" etc.
Not to be an "armchair company manager" or anything , but I am surprised the CB has not explored packaging double blisters into boxes that are half the size of the regular boxes. This is something that Wyrd has done with singles and doubles. It makes for a nice look on a shelf.
Wyrd's problem is that they put the model name on the side in a boring, but easily read banner. Retailers put all their stuff on shelves like a library rack and nobody can see any of the nice box art.
jake wrote: I know that the whole "they said they couldn't fit a TAG into a blister, but they totally did" thing keeps coming up. Did any of you actually see the Tik that came in the tournament pack? Yes, it was crammed into a blister, but it was a really, really tight fit. Tight enough that after I opened it I couldn't get it closed again. So while it did fit, CB may have felt like it wasn't a viable packaging solution. Too crammed, likely to rupture, likely to damage parts (the shoulder pad of my Tik model was all scratched up in the package). I don't know if this actually was the the reason they decided to double pack it with the other TAG, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
The Tikbalang was available in the box before the blister came out.
So it wasn't a "We made them in blisters, it looked bad" deal. It's also worth mentioning that my Szalamandra(new version) had some scratches and stuff on it too despite being in a box. It happens sometimes with metal models, most often it's from them pulling it weird from the mold or just the thing getting scratched in the process. It's easy enough to file/sand smooth.
jake wrote: I know that the whole "they said they couldn't fit a TAG into a blister, but they totally did" thing keeps coming up. Did any of you actually see the Tik that came in the tournament pack? Yes, it was crammed into a blister, but it was a really, really tight fit. Tight enough that after I opened it I couldn't get it closed again. So while it did fit, CB may have felt like it wasn't a viable packaging solution. Too crammed, likely to rupture, likely to damage parts (the shoulder pad of my Tik model was all scratched up in the package). I don't know if this actually was the the reason they decided to double pack it with the other TAG, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
The Tikbalang was available in the box before the blister came out.
So it wasn't a "We made them in blisters, it looked bad" deal. It's also worth mentioning that my Szalamandra(new version) had some scratches and stuff on it too despite being in a box. It happens sometimes with metal models, most often it's from them pulling it weird from the mold or just the thing getting scratched in the process. It's easy enough to file/sand smooth.
Yes, everyone knows that the Tik was only ever available for sale in the box. And no, they didn't have to actually make a blistered verion to come to the conclusion that it might look bad, potentially damage the model, rupture the packaging, be a poor display for the item, be a poor representation of the items vaule or otherwise not be a good idea.
And no, they didn't have to actually make a blistered verion to come to the conclusion that it might look bad, potentially damage the model, rupture the packaging, be a poor display for the item, be a poor representation of the items vaule or otherwise not be a good idea.
No package is ever going to be ideal and safe from transportation hazards. It'd be interesting to see what their documentation says about this. Such things are usually found there.
jake wrote: I know that the whole "they said they couldn't fit a TAG into a blister, but they totally did" thing keeps coming up. Did any of you actually see the Tik that came in the tournament pack? Yes, it was crammed into a blister, but it was a really, really tight fit. Tight enough that after I opened it I couldn't get it closed again. So while it did fit, CB may have felt like it wasn't a viable packaging solution. Too crammed, likely to rupture, likely to damage parts (the shoulder pad of my Tik model was all scratched up in the package). I don't know if this actually was the the reason they decided to double pack it with the other TAG, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
The Tikbalang was available in the box before the blister came out.
So it wasn't a "We made them in blisters, it looked bad" deal. It's also worth mentioning that my Szalamandra(new version) had some scratches and stuff on it too despite being in a box. It happens sometimes with metal models, most often it's from them pulling it weird from the mold or just the thing getting scratched in the process. It's easy enough to file/sand smooth.
Yes, everyone knows that the Tik was only ever available for sale in the box. And no, they didn't have to actually make a blistered verion to come to the conclusion that it might look bad, potentially damage the model, rupture the packaging, be a poor display for the item, be a poor representation of the items vaule or otherwise not be a good idea.
That's not the way your posting reads however. Specifically because of the underlined statement.
So why weren't other similarly sized items "double-packed" with items that go outside of their Sectorial?
This is the part that you and Storm kept ignoring/trying to downplay on the official forums. A large amount of the annoyance factor over the garbage about "WE CAN'T FIT IT IN A BLISTER!"(and then them promptly doing so) is because of the simple fact that:
NEOTERRA CANNOT TAKE TIKBALANGS AND SHOCK ARMY CANNOT TAKE UHLANS Yeah, sure it's great for Vanilla players but it sucked for anyone who played strictly one or the other. It was the same issue with the Geckos and the fact that it was 1 of each profile.
It was unfriendly packaging for customers, it could have been avoided, and no attempt was ever made to address that other than "Go split box it with someone".
LunarSol wrote: Wyrd's problem is that they put the model name on the side in a boring, but easily read banner. Retailers put all their stuff on shelves like a library rack and nobody can see any of the nice box art.
More of a retailer's problem. Leading a horse to water and all that. I suppose the solution is to print "Front Toward Customer" on the front of each box. One would think that the FLGS owners and managers would take a clue from, oh say, every other retailer and display the box in a way that catches the customer's eye.
LunarSol wrote: Wyrd's problem is that they put the model name on the side in a boring, but easily read banner. Retailers put all their stuff on shelves like a library rack and nobody can see any of the nice box art.
More of a retailer's problem. Leading a horse to water and all that. I suppose the solution is to print "Front Toward Customer" on the front of each box. One would think that the FLGS owners and managers would take a clue from, oh say, every other retailer and display the box in a way that catches the customer's eye.
They take up a lot of shelf space turned sideways and can be kind of hard to find what you're looking for. I mostly agree, but I think the boxes could be improved to make it less of an issue as well.
Red Harvest wrote:
Not to be an "armchair company manager" or anything , but I am surprised the CB has not explored packaging double blisters into boxes that are half the size of the regular boxes. This is something that Wyrd has done with singles and doubles. It makes for a nice look on a shelf.
Still no article.
They have explored it, nothing conclusive of it yet as far as I know, present format seems to work.
Still no article.....
Kanluwen wrote:The Tikbalang was available in the box before the blister came out.
Correct, hence why Tony is a modified version that has one arm altered so it can fit inside a blister, normal tickbalang cannot.
Kanluwen wrote:
So why weren't other similarly sized items "double-packed" with items that go outside of their Sectorial?
No other example exists?
Kanluwen wrote:
This is the part that you and Storm kept ignoring/trying to downplay on the official forums. A large amount of the annoyance factor over the garbage about "WE CAN'T FIT IT IN A BLISTER!"(and then them promptly doing so) is because of the simple fact that:
it is true the models as is cannot, they could theoretically be designed to fit in the blister with either a more boring pose or a bigger parts breakdown, this would create a an expensive blister, each TAG would cost a bit more since they are not bundled together and create an expansive blister that can relatively easy be shoplifted making it less than ideal for retailers, the boxes on expensive items serve more purposes than just simply for display.
Kanluwen wrote:
NEOTERRA CANNOT TAKE TIKBALANGS AND SHOCK ARMY CANNOT TAKE UHLANS Yeah, sure it's great for Vanilla players but it sucked for anyone who played strictly one or the other. It was the same issue with the Geckos and the fact that it was 1 of each profile.
It was unfriendly packaging for customers, it could have been avoided, and no attempt was ever made to address that other than "Go split box it with someone".
As you said PanOceania can take both, even at the same time, it is unfriendly packaging for you friendly for others.
jake wrote: I know that the whole "they said they couldn't fit a TAG into a blister, but they totally did" thing keeps coming up. Did any of you actually see the Tik that came in the tournament pack? Yes, it was crammed into a blister, but it was a really, really tight fit. Tight enough that after I opened it I couldn't get it closed again. So while it did fit, CB may have felt like it wasn't a viable packaging solution. Too crammed, likely to rupture, likely to damage parts (the shoulder pad of my Tik model was all scratched up in the package). I don't know if this actually was the the reason they decided to double pack it with the other TAG, but it wouldn't surprise me.
It's also important to remember that the whole reason they put models in boxes instead of bigger blisters (which certainly do exist) is because it makes them easy to sell. People will hesitate to pay $30+ for 4 models or a single large model, but if its in a larger colorful box with lots of pictures it makes the price more palatable and the product more enticing. People are way less likely to pay $30+ for a blister over a box.
So when CB said "it won't fit in a blister" I think its very likely that this was a simplification of "we think a blister is a bad idea for this product for multiple reasons."
The Tikbalang was available in the box before the blister came out.
So it wasn't a "We made them in blisters, it looked bad" deal. It's also worth mentioning that my Szalamandra(new version) had some scratches and stuff on it too despite being in a box. It happens sometimes with metal models, most often it's from them pulling it weird from the mold or just the thing getting scratched in the process. It's easy enough to file/sand smooth.
Yes, everyone knows that the Tik was only ever available for sale in the box. And no, they didn't have to actually make a blistered verion to come to the conclusion that it might look bad, potentially damage the model, rupture the packaging, be a poor display for the item, be a poor representation of the items vaule or otherwise not be a good idea.
That's not the way your posting reads however. Specifically because of the underlined statement.
So why weren't other similarly sized items "double-packed" with items that go outside of their Sectorial?
This is the part that you and Storm kept ignoring/trying to downplay on the official forums. A large amount of the annoyance factor over the garbage about "WE CAN'T FIT IT IN A BLISTER!"(and then them promptly doing so) is because of the simple fact that:
NEOTERRA CANNOT TAKE TIKBALANGS AND SHOCK ARMY CANNOT TAKE UHLANS Yeah, sure it's great for Vanilla players but it sucked for anyone who played strictly one or the other. It was the same issue with the Geckos and the fact that it was 1 of each profile.
It was unfriendly packaging for customers, it could have been avoided, and no attempt was ever made to address that other than "Go split box it with someone".
I havent posted anything on the official forum for over a year, and I haven't talked about this specific topic there for much longer than that. So I don't now what you're on about. Yes, we all know that they said that the model wouldn't fit in the blister. Just like we all know that youve taken this as the gravest possible offense, refuse to ever let it go and refuse to admit that there are other legitimate reasons that they may have not wanted to pack the model that way and "it doesn't fit" was the easy way to explain their descision without going into a huge amount of boring detail.
You know that the vast majority of players didn't really care about the packging, right? Just like with Dire Foes, Icetorm, the Beyond boxes and all the other packaging that so many of us like to complain about. All of that stuff sells just fine. Almost no one actually cares. Almost no one actually sees it as a real problem. Some people do, and thats fine (and not unjustified), but for the most part people don't keep complaining about it for years.
At this point I don't even understand what you want. Do you want CB to repackage the models? Do you want a personal apology from Carlos. Do you want someone from the company to admit that they lied and beg you for forgivness? Do you want them to make the TAGs available in each sectorial? You keep beating this long dead horse as if its a personal crusade that has any value or meaning. Its liteally been years. It doesn't matter. Let it o. Stop bringing up literally every chance you get, especially in completley unrelated cnversations. Or make a special thread just for yourself where you can endlessly complain about it without bothering the rest of us.
.Mikes. wrote: As riveting as discussing cardboard boxes is, anyone know when we're supposed to here this Yu Jing thing CB has said would come?
Seriously, Mods deliver us.
Yu Jing & JSA are going to need some major releases now.
What about Zoe & Pi-well?
What about some of the upcoming Aristeia releases? When will they drop?
.Mikes. wrote: As riveting as discussing cardboard boxes is, anyone know when we're supposed to here this Yu Jing thing CB has said would come?
Nobody knows when it will come or if it will be anything of substance. Most likely it won't be anything of substance other than alluding to "Buy the Uprising book to find out how/why it happens!".
.Mikes. wrote: As riveting as discussing cardboard boxes is, anyone know when we're supposed to here this Yu Jing thing CB has said would come?
Seriously, Mods deliver us.
Yu Jing & JSA are going to need some major releases now.
Yu Jing is one of the most up to date factions at this point. JSA is about to be on par with that. We'll probably see Invincible Army this year, or at least the start of it, since Bostria made an offhanded comment about how the IA was "used to squash Japan".
What about Zoe & Pi-well?
What about them? We saw renders. They're coming. Soon. Maybe. We don't know.
What about some of the upcoming Aristeia releases? When will they drop?
They're slated for "Soon". It's the "Smoke and Mirrors" expansion next, with yet more pop culture references.
.Mikes. wrote: As riveting as discussing cardboard boxes is, anyone know when we're supposed to here this Yu Jing thing CB has said would come?
Seriously, Mods deliver us.
Yu Jing & JSA are going to need some major releases now. What about Zoe & Pi-well? What about some of the upcoming Aristeia releases? When will they drop?
Bostria confirmed at Rumble that the Invincible Army was the replacement for JSA. Whether it gets fast tracked or not, who knows. The first Aresteia character pack is out next month or the month after, and IIRC there's a couple more earmarked for this year.
I'm curious how these non aligned armies will operate in the BoW campaigns. I guess they could align them to their thematic closest ties - JSA fight for whoever helps free them, Bayram fights for Haqqislam, Starco for Yu Jing, etc.
ImAGeek wrote: Why are we still arguing about how a 2 year old release was packaged in the news and rumours thread?
Because today is Terrible & Tendentious Tuesday. It's a new tradition.
The appearance of a Ramah Task Force unit makes me think that Ramah will be 1 of the 4 new sectorials for certain -- Varuna, Tunguska, Ramah and Vedic. The re-appearance of the Halqa will be confirmation, methinks.
Any other interesting bits from the Rumble on Rte. 66? Next up is the Adepticon presentation in 12 days now.
"Smoke and Mirrors" expansion has a Lo Pan character. I have no idea about the other three characters.
Red Harvest wrote: The appearance of a Ramah Task Force unit makes me think that Ramah will be 1 of the 4 new sectorials for certain -- Varuna, Tunguska, Ramah and Vedic. The re-appearance of the Halqa will be confirmation, methinks.
I'm getting a bit worried about Ramah. Around Red Veil they were pretty gung ho about Ramah, even saying that we might see a USAriadna style temporary list for them. Which we ended up seeing for Druze, not Ramah. And they basically went silent on Ramah. So yeah, it's nice to see something for them, but I'm concerned they might skip a book.
Which is annoying because about 1/2 to 2/3 of their stuff seems to be out. They could very easily make a temporary list by just releasing the Zhayedan and Khawarij boxes, and with how easy that is and the fact they're not doing it makes me think Ramah has slipped back for some reason.
I'm curious how these non aligned armies will operate in the BoW campaigns. I guess they could align them to their thematic closest ties - JSA fight for whoever helps free them, Bayram fights for Haqqislam, Starco for Yu Jing, etc.
That is a good point, although I'm mre hopeful they'll sort the whole 'PanO winning everything through sheer number of players' thing first.
I'm curious how these non aligned armies will operate in the BoW campaigns. I guess they could align them to their thematic closest ties - JSA fight for whoever helps free them, Bayram fights for Haqqislam, Starco for Yu Jing, etc.
That is a good point, although I'm mre hopeful they'll sort the whole 'PanO winning everything through sheer number of players' thing first.
Weirdly, nobody else locally plays PanO, so my "solid wall of BS15*" that rolls slowly up the board is often considered some new and daring tactic.
* I'll admit, I sometimes make a BS attack at 14 too. Or 13, in the specific case of the Nisse.
.Mikes. wrote: As riveting as discussing cardboard boxes is, anyone know when we're supposed to here this Yu Jing thing CB has said would come?
Seriously, Mods deliver us.
Yu Jing & JSA are going to need some major releases now.
What about Zoe & Pi-well?
What about some of the upcoming Aristeia releases? When will they drop?
Bostria confirmed at Rumble that the Invincible Army was the replacement for JSA. Whether it gets fast tracked or not, who knows. The first Aresteia character pack is out next month or the month after, and IIRC there's a couple more earmarked for this year.
I'm curious how these non aligned armies will operate in the BoW campaigns. I guess they could align them to their thematic closest ties - JSA fight for whoever helps free them, Bayram fights for Haqqislam, Starco for Yu Jing, etc.
Kind of unfortunate because I don’t see that including Guilang & Dao Fei.
Have to say I’m disappointed the JSA super HI choice is just another CC beast unit.
I know he’s also pretty good at range with fatality 1 and multi rifle or red fury.
It just doesn’t seem like they’re filling a need for the sectorial with this profile.
Would have preferred something perhaps more like a dedicated fire support unit with more utility choices that don’t overlap with existing profiles.
I did hear Halqa was to be the thing for Ramah, because the mech deployment was a high tech thing. Best equipment and such. But really, I could have heard wrong.
Have to say I’m disappointed the JSA super HI choice is just another CC beast unit.
I know he’s also pretty good at range with fatality 1 and multi rifle or red fury.
It just doesn’t seem like they’re filling a need for the sectorial with this profile.
Would have preferred something perhaps more like a dedicated fire support unit with more utility choices that don’t overlap with existing profiles.
Its kind of similar to the Sogarat, in that its big and tough, but also that it really doesn't bring much new to the army. What I mean is, the Sogarat is a solid anti-HI/TAG choice, but Morats are actually really good at killing HIs and TAGs anyway, and have a lot of options that do it about as well for much less. This new JSAHI seems to be in the same boat. It's really solid at CC and a pretty good mid ranged shooter, but JSA already has a lot of both of that (well, a lot of good CC and a fair amount of mid ranged shooting) for cheaper. But on the other hand, variety is nice and sometimes what you really do need is something that may not be the best shooting option but can stand up to a huge amount of punishment.
It is nice that the new HI has some viable linking options.
Have to say I’m disappointed the JSA super HI choice is just another CC beast unit.
I know he’s also pretty good at range with fatality 1 and multi rifle or red fury.
It just doesn’t seem like they’re filling a need for the sectorial with this profile.
Would have preferred something perhaps more like a dedicated fire support unit with more utility choices that don’t overlap with existing profiles.
Its kind of similar to the Sogarat, in that its big and tough, but also that it really doesn't bring much new to the army. What I mean is, the Sogarat is a solid anti-HI/TAG choice, but Morats are actually really good at killing HIs and TAGs anyway, and have a lot of options that do it about as well for much less. This new JSAHI seems to be in the same boat. It's really solid at CC and a pretty good mid ranged shooter, but JSA already has a lot of both of that (well, a lot of good CC and a fair amount of mid ranged shooting) for cheaper. But on the other hand, variety is nice and sometimes what you really do need is something that may not be the best shooting option but can stand up to a huge amount of punishment.
It is nice that the new HI has some viable linking options.
I was really hoping section/unit-9 would have more of a role than just replacing the Raiden.
They really don’t have any choices in the way of hackers, engies, or docs; Really no useful/reliable HMG or MSR options.
I disagreed with CB’s recent-ish moves to homogenize sectorials
...but if they were going in that direction, they need to keep it up.
I guess JSA is totally off the board in that regard since they’re no longer included with any main factions.
jake wrote: I'm really hoping that there are actually more Unit-9 profiles, and this is just all we've seen because thats all thats in the box.
USARF included full unit profiles for the items in the box. I'm disappointed by the lack of profiles but not surprised. Look at most new units, they tend to have few profiles unless they're high AVA.
jake wrote: I'm really hoping that there are actually more Unit-9 profiles, and this is just all we've seen because thats all thats in the box.
USARF included full unit profiles for the items in the box. I'm disappointed by the lack of profiles but not surprised. Look at most new units, they tend to have few profiles unless they're high AVA.
Thats true. But I believe we've had cases in the last year or two where we've been shown a unit, and then later found out it has more profiles than we were originally shown. Although I can't think of any examples. There have been instances where they add new profiles to units shortly after releasing them though. The Mobile Brigada for example.
jake wrote: I'm really hoping that there are actually more Unit-9 profiles, and this is just all we've seen because thats all thats in the box.
USARF included full unit profiles for the items in the box. I'm disappointed by the lack of profiles but not surprised. Look at most new units, they tend to have few profiles unless they're high AVA.
Thats true. But I believe we've had cases in the last year or two where we've been shown a unit, and then later found out it has more profiles than we were originally shown. Although I can't think of any examples. There have been instances where they add new profiles to units shortly after releasing them though. The Mobile Brigada for example.
Mobile Brigada were released around the time of Icestorm. It wasn't until the CJC 300 point army pack last fall that we got a Boarding Shotgun LT option and that was only to make the box legal.
When the MB box was released they got two new profiles that weren't in the N3 rulebook, the Hacker and ML. They were introduced into ARMY at that time. I remember because I was still a Warcor and we spent time speculating about whether this was going to be the way things worked going forward and how strange it was to see these updates so shortly after N3 released. The same thing happened with the Jannissaries around the same time.
Since they've settled on their online army builder and PDF to be the standard for units and army lists, I'd prefer they just gave profiles for miniatures they've released.
While it reduces the usefulness of the new unit as a whole, it also removes the need to proxy other models. They can release two Ryuken with two profiles, and later down the road decide to release another profile and just add those to the army builder and army list PDF.
They dug themselves their own grave with having loads of profiles per unit and then no intention of actually releasing models for them all. Making proxying a requirement led to needing 'proxy models'. This is still fine for Link team boxes, but I'd be quite happy if they decide to limit smaller units to what they're actually planning to release.
I waited 5 years for a Farzan with a rifle. I wouldn't have been waiting for it or proxying it if the FO option just wasn't there, and would have been nicely surprised when they put the model in the Hassassin starter.
-Loki- wrote: Since they've settled on their online army builder and PDF to be the standard for units and army lists, I'd prefer they just gave profiles for miniatures they've released.
While it reduces the usefulness of the new unit as a whole, it also removes the need to proxy other models. They can release two Ryuken with two profiles, and later down the road decide to release another profile and just add those to the army builder and army list PDF.
They dug themselves their own grave with having loads of profiles per unit and then no intention of actually releasing models for them all. Making proxying a requirement led to needing 'proxy models'. This is still fine for Link team boxes, but I'd be quite happy if they decide to limit smaller units to what they're actually planning to release.
I waited 5 years for a Farzan with a rifle. I wouldn't have been waiting for it or proxying it if the FO option just wasn't there, and would have been nicely surprised when they put the model in the Hassassin starter.
-Loki- wrote: Since they've settled on their online army builder and PDF to be the standard for units and army lists, I'd prefer they just gave profiles for miniatures they've released.
While it reduces the usefulness of the new unit as a whole, it also removes the need to proxy other models. They can release two Ryuken with two profiles, and later down the road decide to release another profile and just add those to the army builder and army list PDF.
They dug themselves their own grave with having loads of profiles per unit and then no intention of actually releasing models for them all. Making proxying a requirement led to needing 'proxy models'. This is still fine for Link team boxes, but I'd be quite happy if they decide to limit smaller units to what they're actually planning to release.
I waited 5 years for a Farzan with a rifle. I wouldn't have been waiting for it or proxying it if the FO option just wasn't there, and would have been nicely surprised when they put the model in the Hassassin starter.
In all honesty, the game really needs to evolve its release model to fit what the game has become. Back in 1st we were all convinced that anything above 10v10 was sacrilege, fire teams didn't exist (and thus there was little need more most of the line trooper options in the game) and a release of a handful of profiles every month was fine enough since this game was a little boutique skirmish game ala Confrontation and each of your dudes was an individual unique sculpt with its own character and personality to it (sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a Minuteman way).
But with Human Sphere we got de facto squads, suddenly making for individual units getting spammed in far greater numbers than before. Then came Paradiso and ITS-style missions and suddenly folks began to realize that 10 order lists weren't the limit, merely the beginning. Now many lists routinely reach 16 orders and you'll often require doubles of a great many different units (if not octuples, in the case of things like the Kuang Shi).
Now even the base unit box (4), SWC box (4) and various assorted blisters and dual-packs basically seem designed to be as wasteful (both in terms of minis and time) as possible. We aren't talking proxying a bunch of one-offs anymore, now when I field CG, I have to proxy most of the bloody unit! Worse, if the SWC box only includes one mini you wanted to field a bunch of then you're stuck either finding a retailer that does box splitting, eBaying it, or buying multiple boxes (the Space Marine Devastator conundrum if you will, back when they packed 'em with one of each weapon and no duplicates).
They really need to start designing boxes for high AVA, linkable stuff as other games would offer a squad kit. Make it a one-and-done instead of having to wait for multiple releases, let it build multiple configurations out of the box and give it enough duplicates that fans wont be forced to look to other sources to build proper units without undue amounts of waste models. Because someone may only ever want one hacker but needs two snipers for a squad build which means they're in a pickle if they pick up two SWC boxes because they're left with models that will never see the table.
The game has evolved beyond 10v10 games with a bunch of unique one-off units being the norm, but the game is still using basically the same release cycle they did back in 1st Edition (albeit with more large releases than we got in those days).
And it isn't like the game is still 100% on-board the old boutique thing anymore. Squad boxes have been bringing in generic bodies, dynamic sculpts are becoming fewer and fewer with many more generic (rage fist!) poses seeing use since they blend better in multiples (unlike dynamic sculpts which stick out like a sore thumb if you field more than one), and computer sculpting allows consistent asset re-use which makes designing all the profiles at once a lot easier than back in the hand-crafted days.
Now, who knows, maybe CB are looking to go back to the 10v10 days (they've certainly been trying out a lot of beta rules in ITS that encourage such lists to varying degrees of success), but the fact of the matter is, the game is not that anymore and short of an N4 it isn't likely to go back there any time soon. So it would be nice if they evolved their distribution to the way the game exists rather than sticking with a method that is too slow to ever hope to get all the profiles they've created.
Proxy? No proxy? Limit profiles to only available minis or let it all hang out? I'm fine with whatever, but I mostly just think CB need to fix the way they release things to be more retailer and customer friendly. Because we shouldn't have profiles we know will never see release because they just didn't both making an extra set of arms when making the SWC box, we shouldn't look at a new unit and wonder how many years it will be until we can field a fire team of them with no proxies. These are signs that the delivery method is no longer serving its purpose and needs improvement.
^^^Interesting post. Ronin, what do you feel the ideal solution is? Multiple sculpts for single profiles (like two different Fusilier snipers)? Extra arms with each release so each model can function as multiple profiles? breaking up releases into single blisters so you can buy what you want only? Something else?
Personally, my main gripe with proxies, limiting this solely to the unit boxes they do for Linked teams, is Rifle and Boarding Shotgun models. There just aren't enough of them.
If I want to run Govads WYSIWIG, I'm running a link with a HMG, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher and Hacker. I'm sorry, but I just do not run my links that bloated. Even if I proxy the Hacker as just a Boarding Shotgun, I've still got 1 more special weapon than I like to run, and 1 less Rifle than I'd like to use.
My only solutions are buy a second box, which gives me second Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifle and Hacker sculpts which I just won't ever use, or hope Shae Konnit has a Govad Rifle sitting around. Considering other people are in the same boat, I'd assume the Govad Rifle is one of the in-demand sculpts.
Low effort solution? Have individual models from a box be orderable direct from CB, but Spains absurd shipping means people will likely be spending as much as the whole box anyway in your local currency.
Ideal solution? Finally accept that fact that, as Ronin said, your game has changed and you need more basic weapons in your link team boxes, and add additional Rifle arms (again, low effort just put two sets for the same body, better solution for the opposite body). That would let people buy say the Govad box, and be able to make two Rifle models (one male and one female), and two Boarding Shotgun models (one male Hacker, one female non-hacker).
I'd pay $5 more for a box if I got those basic weapon arm options. I'd pay $10 more for a box if they did the same for any special weapons, letting me buy one box and customise how I want, or two boxes and have every option I'd ever field.
I know the usual suspect will come in saying it's not possible, it will quadruple the price of a box because materials are mined on Mars and are a precious resource, but like Ronin said. They're designing the game around N1/N2 pre HS. The game has changed since then.
I've seen what Ronin_eX has said also said by others, only in not as diplomatic terms.
A solution is more minis in the box. We get 6 mini starters/samplers, so why not a 6 mini SWC box with a few extra arms/weapons? Cuts down on the blisters/SKUs.
Wondering How I ended up in Bladerunner's quote tree above?
Back to news. Adepticon seminar in 10 days. We'll see the JSA profiles sooner though, since someone is bound to post something from the box he bought on the 22nd. The Ryuken have an AVA=3, so there will be at least one more profile, to be certain.
Personally, my main gripe with proxies, limiting this solely to the unit boxes they do for Linked teams, is Rifle and Boarding Shotgun models. There just aren't enough of them.
If I want to run Govads WYSIWIG, I'm running a link with a HMG, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher and Hacker. I'm sorry, but I just do not run my links that bloated. Even if I proxy the Hacker as just a Boarding Shotgun, I've still got 1 more special weapon than I like to run, and 1 less Rifle than I'd like to use.
My only solutions are buy a second box, which gives me second Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifle and Hacker sculpts which I just won't ever use, or hope Shae Konnit has a Govad Rifle sitting around. Considering other people are in the same boat, I'd assume the Govad Rifle is one of the in-demand sculpts.
Low effort solution? Have individual models from a box be orderable direct from CB, but Spains absurd shipping means people will likely be spending as much as the whole box anyway in your local currency.
Ideal solution? Finally accept that fact that, as Ronin said, your game has changed and you need more basic weapons in your link team boxes, and add additional Rifle arms (again, low effort just put two sets for the same body, better solution for the opposite body). That would let people buy say the Govad box, and be able to make two Rifle models (one male and one female), and two Boarding Shotgun models (one male Hacker, one female non-hacker).
I'd pay $5 more for a box if I got those basic weapon arm options. I'd pay $10 more for a box if they did the same for any special weapons, letting me buy one box and customise how I want, or two boxes and have every option I'd ever field.
I know the usual suspect will come in saying it's not possible, it will quadruple the price of a box because materials are mined on Mars and are a precious resource, but like Ronin said. They're designing the game around N1/N2 pre HS. The game has changed since then.
I think this is why they made so many new special fireteams that mix different units or characters.
Trying to get away from 5 man links of 4 guys with a rifle and one guy with an HMG or ML.
Unfortunately Govads don’t have any options to mix in with other units.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: I think this is why they made so many new special fireteams that mix different units or characters. Trying to get away from 5 man links of 4 guys with a rifle and one guy with an HMG or ML. Unfortunately Govads don’t have any options to mix in with other units.
A lot of Fireteams are in the same spot as Govads. While the new design idea of smaller mixed teams is good, it doesn't fix the problem for teams that can't do it. I also wasn't talking about fireteams that are 4 rifles and a special weapon. My usual loadout is 2 special weapons, 2 rifles/boarding shotguns and a specialist. This is why I don't overly mind the 'proxy' model they pack in to linked team boxes since it usually lets me run that sort of loadout, but it's another low effort solution. Also if they didn't want '4 rifles and a special weapon' fireteams, they could have just built fireteam composition rules differently in the first place.
Basically, CB built fireteam rules in such a way that you need more basic models than they're willing to put in a box, so they've been exploring different ways to solve it. Proxy models, mixed fireteams, less profiles. The obvious answer of just sticking a few more arms in the box is one they can do, but won't.
They've finally started exploring the alternate arm approach again, so I hope it eventually bleeds over to link boxes.
They've finally started exploring the alternate arm approach again, so I hope it eventually bleeds over to link boxes.
Have they? Pretty certyain Carlos said that wasn't going to happen in the Cancon video from January.
New Taskmaster has 2 arm sets - 1 Red Fury, 1 HRL. The new Shikami has an arm set with a Contender, and one with no guns. Both Shikami also have alternate heads.
Considering CB said for a couple of years they wouldn't even do that, Carlos is just repeating the company line that they've already changed their mind on for part of the range.
They've finally started exploring the alternate arm approach again, so I hope it eventually bleeds over to link boxes.
Have they? Pretty certyain Carlos said that wasn't going to happen in the Cancon video from January.
New Taskmaster has 2 arm sets - 1 Red Fury, 1 HRL. The new Shikami has an arm set with a Contender, and one with no guns. Both Shikami also have alternate heads.
Considering CB said for a couple of years they wouldn't even do that, Carlos is just repeating the company line that they've already changed their mind on for part of the range.
The Taskmaster is kind of a weird one. The Red Fury and HRL are interchangeable yes, but the other arm is always the same.
Shikami actually both have two different arms IIRC. One of the new Scots(Galwegian with APHMG I think it was?) has two arm sets.
The first product to do that sort of thing was the Kuang Shi box, wasn't it? You got four chain rifles and a shotgun (which practically meant every Yu Jing player has a spare teeny chain rifle lying around )
No, I believe the first time it was done was the original Galwegian box way back in the day. It was one of the first 4 model boxes (although the second iteration of those models), if I remember correctly. It came with an extra set of Boarding Shotgun arms.
Including multiple sets of arms limits them to some rather boring poses. Most of the SWC boxes have really lame poses because everything needs to fit interchangeably with a head/arm swap.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: Including multiple sets of arms limits them to some rather boring poses. Most of the SWC boxes have really lame poses because everything needs to fit interchangeably with a head/arm swap.
And yet, it'd still be better than what we have now. I've long advocated for them to take the time and effort to add at least one extra set of arms into each SWC box.
Example, USARF Grunts:
LMG(M)
Sniper(F)
Rifle+LGL(F)
HFT(M)
Add in a Rifle arm that matches with each weapon option, that gives you potentially 4 more unique Rifle sculpts.
Add in a 'mirror' SWC for each type. A female HFT, male Sniper, female LMG, male rifle+LGL.
It is an opinion, not universally shared, it may make the poses even more boring, and many would prefer to go to even more individualised sculpts for support boxes instead.
That is not a good option though I am afraid, new sculpting techniques show some promise on creating more dynamic sculpts on the 4 model boxes, but needs more work.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: Including multiple sets of arms limits them to some rather boring poses. Most of the SWC boxes have really lame poses because everything needs to fit interchangeably with a head/arm swap.
You man, the sort of poses that look like soldiers advancing, firing, etc - rather than the limbo dancers, gymnasts and just suffering from poorly-timed spasms?
Bladerunner2019 wrote: Including multiple sets of arms limits them to some rather boring poses. Most of the SWC boxes have really lame poses because everything needs to fit interchangeably withdoesn't. Youd/arm swap.
You man, the sort of poses that look like soldiers advancing, firing, etc - rather than the limbo dancers, gymnasts and just suffering from poorly-timed spasms?
I think he means poses that make the models look like actual living people that engage in realistic human motions instead of constipated toy soldiers that are clutching their guns and kind of vaguely looking around. Im not sure why so much of the Infinity community seems to think "dynamic" means "backflipping". It doesnt you can have a dynamic model in a realistic shooting pose or running pose. Infinity actually does that well whem it tries. But too often the poses look like lifeless manaquins.
Bladerunner2019 wrote: Including multiple sets of arms limits them to some rather boring poses. Most of the SWC boxes have really lame poses because everything needs to fit interchangeably withdoesn't. Youd/arm swap.
You man, the sort of poses that look like soldiers advancing, firing, etc - rather than the limbo dancers, gymnasts and just suffering from poorly-timed spasms?
I think he means poses that make the models look like actual living people that engage in realistic human motions instead of constipated toy soldiers that are clutching their guns and kind of vaguely looking around. Im not sure why so much of the Infinity community seems to think "dynamic" means "backflipping". It doesnt you can have a dynamic model in a realistic shooting pose or running pose. Infinity actually does that well whem it tries. But too often the poses look like lifeless manaquins.
They've been doing those 'constipated soldiers' poses already anyway, and not only in link team boxes. For example, the Asawira Spitfire is a one and done single pose solo model. In a constipated soldier pose.
they absolutely have. They've always been there, but they've become more common since they switched over to digital modeling. Of course, they've done some beautifully dynamic poses as well in digital, so I'm not sure if the growing number of less dynamic, more static and constipated poses (which are really 3 different complaints, although they are often found in one miniature) are a result of current art direction, sculptor preference (the gentleman who does most of MAF and USAriadna has a tendency toward less dynamic poses, although his work has other strengths), or something else.
As someone else said above, the 4 bodies/2 poses problem presented by the 4 models boxes has long been a contributor to some really awkward and dull poses.
Anyway, I'd love to see more arm/weapon options, and would pay more for that. Or I'd love to be able to buy each option separately. Or I'd love to be able to buy more than one unique model for each profile. But I can also see the problems with each of those options. I don't know if those problems are insurmountable. CB has long said that the 4 models/2 bodies practice was a cost saving feature. So if they're unwilling to actually produce 4 unique sculpts for a box, doing more seems even more unlikely.
4 model, 2 pose boxes can be done right without having a noticeably repeated pose. The Ghazi box is a good example, with one leg per pose being different as well as the arms and head. It's harder to look at it and see the same 2 bodies, and there's only one static pose in the set.
The price was a tad higher, being in the upper end of 4 model box prices, but I happily paid that because the 4 models look great.
I'd have hoped the Morlock box would signal moving away from that 2-bodies-4-models box model, or at least having better ways of pretending they arent the same (morlocks disguise this fair well by having the very different heads and arms that kinda change the dynamics of the posing).
Micky wrote: I'd have hoped the Morlock box would signal moving away from that 2-bodies-4-models box model, or at least having better ways of pretending they arent the same (morlocks disguise this fair well by having the very different heads and arms that kinda change the dynamics of the posing).
I doubt that will happen.
They’ll never again make models like the old Zero, the hacker ninja, oniwaban, asawira with rifle, croc man hacker.
New asawira was a big opportunity lost to make a really great mini. Just looks like he’s taking a dump.
-Loki- wrote: 4 model, 2 pose boxes can be done right without having a noticeably repeated pose. The Ghazi box is a good example, with one leg per pose being different as well as the arms and head. It's harder to look at it and see the same 2 bodies, and there's only one static pose in the set.
The price was a tad higher, being in the upper end of 4 model box prices, but I happily paid that because the 4 models look great.
It's weird because with all the work they put into making those models different (as well as with the Morlocks Micky mentioned) they might as well have just made 4 separate models anyway. I always think of the old Yaogat box (which was one of the early sets of 4 model boxes) and how they actually WERE 4 unique models because they did unique heads for each one, even though the heads were attached to the bodies. So its not as if they didn't have to make 4 separate molds. And they've actually done similar things with a lot of these sets. How much money are they really saving with this 2 poses/4 models strategy? I would have thought 3d rendering would have made doing 4 unique poses a lot easier and cheaper than before anyway.
It is still cost cutting because its just two bodies, so there are less molds needed, less parts to store and short out.
Surprisingly or not, the metal needed is not the biggest cost of the model (though it is a big part once the model gets bigger) the parts breakdown and mold wear are.
Sure, it does save money if it is two molds (or less mold space). But thats often not actually the case. If you look at the recent Morlocks and the Ghazi they have whole sets of extra parts. Those may be part of the same mold, but they may not. And then there's stuff like the Yaogat which is actually 4 different versions, even though they reuse the same pose twice. So no money saved on molds there either. And the Yagots aren't the only example of that.
I often wonder about how they do their molds. If you look at a set with 2 pairs of matching bodies and 4 sets of arms, how is that divided up? Are the arms all on one mold, and the two bodies on another? or is there a different layout? I'm always very curious about this stufff.
As you already know, the unthinkable has happened in the Infinity universe, and the Japanese regions along with the Japanese army, the JSA, has seceded from Yu Jing after a bloody conflict. This is a change of great importance, not just for the background but also for the wargame, due to the consequences it brings. This release not only affects two factions, one of them with great weight in the game, but also heralds the appearance of a brand-new faction-group: The Non-Aligned Armies (NA2), which brings to the table the Mercenary Companies.
Apart from the hype and Wow! effect that this maneuver has, we had to think about the consequences from a fluff-wise and game-wise realistic point of view. In Infinity the background holds a lot of importance, influencing not only game factors, but also business decisions, due our love for this wargame, we like to improve constantly.
You have to understand that we were looking for a clear and evident evolution for the Infinity storyline. We didn’t want to just release a new book that added new material to what you have already seen, we wanted something that changed it. We wanted to offer a new scenario that is different from the previous situation. The Uprising had to be an event with consequences, and this not only brings us gains, but also losses.
The JSA after the Uprising would be without the backup of a major power as they were within Yu Jing, so their resources would be limited. Restrictions to some troop Availability, and some modified profiles with different values were things that would show this aspect. In exchange, the JSA troops gain experience, with mixed Fireteams that present us with a new reality, where the Domaru are the natural leaders which other troops follow.
However, beside these changes, and a subtle but higher versatility achieved in the process, the JSA has not lost an ounce of character, still being an aggressive assault force. We have always considered it to be an army inspired by the Bushido and the samurai doctrine, and that was something we did not want to lose.
The other factor in the Uprising equation was Yu Jing. Personally, I always considered it very important to explain the reasons why the StateEmpire could not avoid the Japanese secession. In the Infinity Uprising book, it is explained how the political side of the Japanese Uprising determines the ceasefire thanks to international pressure, planned and orchestrated from the beginning by the kuge aristocracy, the Japanese elite, but also detailed is the dramatic evolution of the combats on the different battlefronts. The “Chronology of the Uprising” chapter explains how, logically, despite the stubbornness of the Japanese troops, the different secessionist regions (the Japanese archipelago on Earth, the Martian, Svalarheiman and Paradiso colonies, and Japanese Human Edge space stations) would have never been able to withstand a long war against the StateEmpire war machine.
But the most relevant question was to decide and define the situation in which the Yu Jing StateEmpire would end up after the Uprising. On the one hand, with all the Japanese areas seceded from Yu Jing, except for Kuraimori ‒Shentang‒ now turned a police state, the Japanese population of the StateEmpire has been severely reduced. Plus, the massive support of all the Japanese population for the Uprising ensured that all Japanese citizens are now more politically suspicious to the Party’s eyes than before, even being possible traitors. Evidently, it is not a situation that could help to sustain a loyalist Japanese force, if there were any left that is, especially after the brutal actions undertaken by the Imperial Service during and after the Uprising, as you can see in the “Kuraimori, hell under martial law” chapter. For that reason, it was easy to reach the conclusion that very few Japanese living inside the Yu Jing territory could remain loyal to the StateEmpire. However, the main argument against the support of “loyalist” units was that the Party could not let a suspicious population with previous history of sedition to have access to military grade gear.
The only exception to this was the ninjas, given that they have always been considered people without honor, the antithesis of the righteous samurai. During the times before the Uprising, the great ninja clans, with their special units such as the Oniwaban, or the Shikamis from the Fukurō clan, had big government contracts for the JSA and the StateEmpire army. However, these great clans would be the ones supporting the Uprising, declaring loyalty to the Japanese Emperor. This decision would open a door for the small clans, giving them access to lucrative contracts with the StateEmpire that were previously out of their reach. For this reason, ignoring their ideals, these clans positioned themselves on Yu Jing’s side, showing loyalty to the StateEmpire during the conflict, fighting their compatriots. Evidently for those big clans loyal to the Japanese Emperor, that would be the greatest betrayal, a reason why all those loyalist ninjas cannot expect any fate other than death.
In this way the post-Uprising situation was laid out. A setting where an independent, but still weak, Japan must find allies against an aggressive StateEmpire, always ready to claim again it’s lost territories, and most of all to avenge itself and punish the rebels.
It literally told us nothing about the future of the Yu Jing faction (outside of reiterating the units we knew we were losing), gave no hints about how they would fill the gap, and was basically just an article to shill for the new book. Coming on the back of the laughable quote they put up on FB to build hype via turning Yu Jing in to fu manchu twirling yellow peril pulp villains in an otherwise grounded near-future sci-fi setting and... Yeah, this whole thing has been handled in a pretty disappointing way. Certainly not getting the book at this point either way, especially not if that's the level of background I can expect in it.
I was expecting so little, and still ended up disappointed. I guess I'll pop back by whenever the IA show up.
There is an obliviousness to the article. He stands unaware that Infinity is a tabletop miniatures game first and foremost, and that changes to the game itself need to be made for purposes of balance, or improvement, not for "fluff".-- how I abhor that term. In a RPG, this can certainly happen, and does. The background for the game is just a nice extra; it is to serve the game, not vice versa.
From a business standpoint, as Ronin said, no word about the future for the Yu Jing faction is only going to irritate and already disgruntled set of players/customers. Uncertainty leads to players leaving, and customers hesitating on purchases. I've seen this. Yes, anecdote is not the singular of data. Meh.
CB will certainly have a plan for Yu Jing. They should state it clearly, now.
Bostria will be at Adepticon next week. I wonder if a disgruntled Yu Jing player or two will put a flea in his ear? Or if the iN-crowders will shield him?
PsychoticStorm wrote: I really and honestly do not see were you see the comical depiction of Yu Jing, but anyway.
Because of this kind of moustache twirling nonsense:
Spoiler:
Do you really think the background is not important? it is the most important part of the IP.
Literally nobody is saying that "the background is not important".
What is being said is that background should not be the sole driver behind everything and that Interruptor(and to an extent, the other higherups at CB) don't quite understand that this is not a RPG.
Tail wagging the dog. People learn the background after taking up the game. The visual appeal and the game play are far more important for attracting, and keeping players. How many people 'know' the background before they start playing? Ah Ha!
PsychoticStorm wrote: I really and honestly do not see were you see the comical depiction of Yu Jing, but anyway.
Because of this kind of moustache twirling nonsense:
Spoiler:
Do you really think the background is not important? it is the most important part of the IP.
Literally nobody is saying that "the background is not important".
What is being said is that background should not be the sole driver behind everything and that Interruptor(and to an extent, the other higherups at CB) don't quite understand that this is not a RPG.
I understand the frustration you have with these changes, and I know CB has been cagey in the past with changes.
I just dont see them stripoing Yu Jing of some of their best assault units without significant compensation coming soon.
I would really wait before getting really outraged over this. It makes so much more sense for JSA to be on its own. Maybe they will use this opportunity to give Yu Jing some actual character. They have always been pretty bland in all their descriptions. Its kind of cool to see their oppression of minorities expressed in the game itself now by splitting the faction off.
Red Harvest wrote: Tail wagging the dog. People learn the background after taking up the game. The visual appeal and the game play are far more important for attracting, and keeping players. How many people 'know' the background before they start playing? Ah Ha!
More than that, you literally cannot get background for an army without buying a book or downloading it illegally. They're weirdly protective over that stuff on the official forums; people were getting censured and even banned for it when N3+HSN3 dropped.
That's fine and dandy, but it's a bullet in the head of the argument that constantly gets used that "you don't need the books to play the game" if background is supposed to be some great component of gameplay.
I understand the frustration you have with these changes, and I know CB has been cagey in the past with changes. I just dont see them stripoing Yu Jing of some of their best assault units without significant compensation coming soon.
They've been doing it for ages for several Sectorials, so yeah. I absolutely do see them doing it.
I would really wait before getting really outraged over this. It makes so much more sense for JSA to be on its own. Maybe they will use this opportunity to give Yu Jing some actual character. They have always been pretty bland in all their descriptions. Its kind of cool to see their oppression of minorities expressed in the game itself now by splitting the faction off.
It was "expressed" before in the background. It was "expressed" before by the existence of the Kuang Shi.
This was just invalidating people's collections, effectively, for naught but background reasons. There were better ways to go about this and Interruptor(and by extension CB) should have known better. At this point, they're just trying to play the victim of being "poorly understood" or that their "fans are unreasonable". It's what they always do.
Oh they have been doing it for ages for several sectorials, Proof Kan proof.
Invalidating players collections? hardly, given how many JSA units Yu Jing players ever used in their lists if a player had a lot of JSA units they were playing JSA not vanilla Yu Jing.
And yes I do not see the "cartoon evil" on the quote, cruel psychological propaganda, yes.
Red Harvest wrote: Tail wagging the dog. People learn the background after taking up the game. The visual appeal and the game play are far more important for attracting, and keeping players. How many people 'know' the background before they start playing? Ah Ha!
More than that, you literally cannot get background for an army without buying a book or downloading it illegally. They're weirdly protective over that stuff on the official forums; people were getting censured and even banned for it when N3+HSN3 dropped.
That's fine and dandy, but it's a bullet in the head of the argument that constantly gets used that "you don't need the books to play the game" if background is supposed to be some great component of gameplay.
I understand the frustration you have with these changes, and I know CB has been cagey in the past with changes.
I just dont see them stripoing Yu Jing of some of their best assault units without significant compensation coming soon.
They've been doing it for ages for several Sectorials, so yeah. I absolutely do see them doing it.
I would really wait before getting really outraged over this. It makes so much more sense for JSA to be on its own. Maybe they will use this opportunity to give Yu Jing some actual character. They have always been pretty bland in all their descriptions. Its kind of cool to see their oppression of minorities expressed in the game itself now by splitting the faction off.
It was "expressed" before in the background. It was "expressed" before by the existence of the Kuang Shi.
This was just invalidating people's collections, effectively, for naught but background reasons. There were better ways to go about this and Interruptor(and by extension CB) should have known better.
At this point, they're just trying to play the victim of being "poorly understood" or that their "fans are unreasonable". It's what they always do.
I probably don't care as much because i started with infinity right after Paradiso collecting JSA & then branched into Yu Jing. Only really started buying them a lot because ISS finally got some love.
I pretty much only play sectoral lists bcs the mashup of drastically different untits is always a turn off.
To me this us all a natural extension of where the game has been heading since sectorial lists were introduced. I'm only disappointed because this means I'm officially collecting 4 factions and will want more stuff now...
I just dont see them stripoing Yu Jing of some of their best assault units without significant compensation coming soon.
Frankly they keep the Ninja and this is what got the most heavy use from JSA units, almost nobody used JSA assault units in Yu Jing they have better HI for that roles.
I'm not outraged. I am concerned that CB has chosen unwisely. Statements like: "It will be a hard year for Yu Jing players" mean to me that at the end of the year, there will be fewer Yu Jing players. Nobody plays a game because they want a hard year. Do they?
And who knows what awaits the other factions? Hard years for them? not really something to entice people to take up the game, or continue it.
I know at least one player who really likes Shinobu but for the most part I agree. I've always found JSA to have almost no bleed into vanilla, so the point where for a lot of people that wanted the Red Veil Ninja, the Yu Jing starter was a more frustrating purchase than the Haqq stuff.
LunarSol wrote: I know at least one player who really likes Shinobu but for the most part I agree. I've always found JSA to have almost no bleed into vanilla, so the point where for a lot of people that wanted the Red Veil Ninja, the Yu Jing starter was a more frustrating purchase than the Haqq stuff.
It's literally the same case for ASA and NCA players with regards to the Uhlan/Tikbalang or the components in the vanilla PanO starter.
Nomads was at least a bit more CJC-y than anything else, but even then that had people frustrated for other reasons.
People will always be frustrated unless they're basically bit ordering their bespoke selectoin; at which point they'll be frustrated at the cost of buying singles. Someone is always frustrated for some reason.
My point is more that JSA really felt unique in how little of it people took in vanilla. At least in nomads you see a pretty common cycle of the starter building into CJC, which then bleeds down into vanilla which ends up building into Bakkunin. I've just generally seen a lot less overlap in YJ and JSA collections outside of faction completionists. I found it just as likely for players to play Invincibles + Something else or JSA + Something else than pairing those together.
LunarSol wrote: People will always be frustrated unless they're basically bit ordering their bespoke selectoin; at which point they'll be frustrated at the cost of buying singles. Someone is always frustrated for some reason.
Well yeah, people will be frustrated in that regards. It's a frustrating thing when you collect a single faction but have to pay for an item that you don't want or you have to pay an outrageous price while hoping that it's not a popular item from what amounts to one vendor.
My point is more that JSA really felt unique in how little of it people took in vanilla. At least in nomads you see a pretty common cycle of the starter building into CJC, which then bleeds down into vanilla which ends up building into Bakkunin. I've just generally seen a lot less overlap in YJ and JSA collections outside of faction completionists. I found it just as likely for players to play Invincibles + Something else or JSA + Something else than pairing those together.
The issue with that is it also ties into how products are packaged.
CJC and Vanilla flow pretty well since you have the starter package(and several supplemental items) being flagged as CJC. Bakunin follows a similar path but also has its roots in having boxes that make army building easy.
JSA didn't really have that, and much of their stuff also had issues with being Skirmishers or other items that benefit best from being Linked which means it didn't really have a great appeal in vanilla.
You see the opposite with Ariadna, where basically "vanilla" means "cherrypicked the best stuff and called it a day".
Sure. That's essentially the probably with CJC. The links are dated and unexciting so at some point you look at your unlinked army and just ask why you're denying yourself Intervetors, Morlocks, and Zeros.
LunarSol wrote: Sure. That's essentially the probably with CJC. The links are dated and unexciting so at some point you look at your unlinked army and just ask why you're denying yourself Intervetors, Morlocks, and Zeros.
Honestly, depending on the timeframe you're talking about...it also has to deal with models and releases. The other reason CJC tended towards popularity is that for awhile CB was foisting them as the Infinity Week army set.
-Loki- wrote: After the JSA initial leak CB are probably clamping down on what warcors are told.
Yeah, and I really don't think Warcors should leak. But I thought the book had been on sale to people at an event a week or two ago? Was I wrong about that.
-Loki- wrote: After the JSA initial leak CB are probably clamping down on what warcors are told.
Yeah, and I really don't think Warcors should leak. But I thought the book had been on sale to people at an event a week or two ago? Was I wrong about that?
But I thought the book had been on sale to people at an event a week or two ago? Was I wrong about that.
It's for sale first at Adepticon, which is next weekend. We should be seeing some pretty in depth stuff after that though, I'm wanting to see the StarCo links myself
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh! I wonder if JSA will get access to the Specialist version of Saito Togan. That would be pretty great. I always want to take Saito, but I usually end up taking an Assault Hacker Ninja instead.
Yeah, we should see something from the JSA book Wednesday night (CST) at the earliest. I do't recall if I heard that the "Uprising" book will be available at adepticon. It is part of a pre-order package, so I suppose that it will.
Meh. I'll be spending next week-end watching the March Madness. Even though I am a UVA alum. Nice to see a historic game. Not so nice my team was the one.
If the usual schedule occurs, the "Uprising" book should generally available by mid-April. I wonder when the Army Builder will update.
I was thinking about the Daiyokai in comparison the the Sogarat and realized that I wish they were in the opposite armies.
JSA could really benefit from the Sogarat's long range anti-armor firepower, and could easily suck up the extra 5-8 pts. MAF is already great at destroying TAGs and HI, but could really use a good mobile mid ranged anti-infantry fire platform, and would really appreciate saving 5-8 points.
rybackstun wrote: Do we know the release date/month for the APHMG Blackjack? I could have sworn it should have been released already.
March 23rd is the slated release date for it, per Warstore.
They've now taken to setting the date of release/receipt from CB on the product pages. Warstore's a distributor(one of the bigger ones here in the US) and as such they get stuff a bit earlier. Always take a look there when you're wondering on release dates.
For example, the preorder period for Uprising ends soon---but the scheduled release date is April 27th. Some people are getting upset about this over on the official forums since Adepticon visitors will have their book/JSA boxes early...but that's the way it always goes with anything that gets a 'limited release' at an event first.
Related but not directly, The Warstore just posted this:
Once again, we are getting snow causing major shipping delays. We are not sure if we will be getting any deliveries to the warehouse today and are fairly certain that no deliveries will be going out today. We are keeping an eye on the weather. Please note that this storm is causing shipping delays all along the East Coast and in some cases may mean we have to go pick up a major release when it finally reaches the shipping hub on Friday. We will do our best to get orders out the door as we can!
So be warned that March's releases might be delayed as far as a week depending on this weather. They're a distributor as well so who knows how it could affect Stateside distribution.
Cant do a thorough cross referebce against the old lists at work, but my gut tells me some of these profiles saw a points decrease, or they got more toys at the same price.
The only thing I've noticed (because of the whole JSA version thing) is that the Rui Shi in NA2 is +0.5 SWC. Oddly, its got a higher AVA in Ikari than it does in JSA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another "hadn't noticed" thing. The Riot Grrls eat up a ton of SWC. This has literally never bothered me in Bakkunin, but it comes up REAL quick in a CJC Bakkunin hybrid list...
), yes.
again. After nearly a decade and a half in the business and this not being their first "we've decided to invalidate your models!" rodeo they still seem to be making the same blunders.
Starco. Free Company of the Star
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