Nothing too exciting. Models lack unique character, far cry from such teams as Kommandos, the Blooded or Hierotek. Scorpions are even less varied than the Intercession Astartes. They could have at least added a sprue with characterful bits like they did with the Hand of the Archon to add character to individual models.
Also what's the deal with the helmetless Scorpions? Isn't going into battle without the helmet taboo for the Aspect Warriors?
Terrain is equally uninspired. Do we really need more Imperial installations? Doesn't even look like it will play well, with reduced playable area and just some predefined, bottlenecky routes to meet your opponents on. Just compare it to the incredibly cool Warcry terrain from the last set!
Aspect Warriors should have that uniformity. That may make them a bad choice for Kill Team after GW spend the last two years releasing flavorful and varied teams, but it's at least not a retcon for the sake of selling more plastic. It's a rare case of GW getting their priorities straight. I'd call that a positive. Plus, the Aspect team can be made up of only Striking Scorpions, but can also be mixed Aspects. So while the kit itself is pretty monotonous, the team doesn't have to be.
Bare heads are supposed to be an Ynnari thing. GW started with that when they released the plastic Banshees. I seem to remember the whole path thing isn't that big of a deal for Ynnead cultists because Ynnead is supposed to eat their souls after death, thus keeping them safe from Slaanesh.
My issue with the terrain is more that it doesn't seem very interactable. You get some high ground but no cover, cover on the ground floor is very much limited to the pillars, and while directional cover isn't a bad thing per se, if you arrange the walkways such that they look like they're built to resemble a functional human facility, you'll have a lot of it provide cover from a single direction no matter where on the board you are. Seems kind of dull in gameplay terms.
The rumour is that KT was never intended to last more than 2 seasons (typical GW there...) and so when it did unexpectedly well (again, typical GW being surprised that releases with 0 Marines do well) they sort of cobbled together a season 3 out of bits and pieces.
The new KT set is not 2 bespoke Kill Teams originally made for the system, it is 2x5 Scorpions and 2x5 Scouts bundled together with a KT branding on it.
From my perspective; that's fine and I would love 10 new Scorpions without having to get a load of terrain that I will never use or be able to sell. Plus I get 10 Scouts that I can sell to someone.
Bosskelot wrote: it did unexpectedly well (again, typical GW being surprised that releases with 0 Marines do well) they sort of cobbled together a season 3 out of bits and pieces.
I like this new model wave, but the "story" irks me. It has absolutely nothing to do with the space hulk that just crashed into this planet. I expected some crashed terrain bits, planetary survivors fighting hulk survivors... not "oh yea this planet that was just hit by a space hulk, well it has this unrelated subplot going on right now with two factions that are unrelated to the hulk and to each other"
While I am happy that it looks like they finally release rules for a mixed aspect team, an obvious omission right from the start. The only good news I can see out of this is that it will spare my wallet and give me time to work on my backlog.
All I can think of seeing that terrain is American Gladiators. Silly crap out of the 90s. Weirdly enough, Killteam 2018 managed the same approach of high rise terrain a lot better with their initial AdMech vs GSC set.
GW really never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. KT has a big following, good balance, a smart balancing management (run by just one guy it looks like) and started of with some nice creativity (and guts to finally not orbit around marines at all).
But for almost a year now it looks like they want to run this into the ground. No more white dwarf teams. The only good releases on way too low stock, then the no heart at all Inquisition release, even the preview of that was crap. And after half a year of dry spell, they open the season with....this? Ha bloody ha!
lord_blackfang wrote: I like this new model wave, but the "story" irks me. It has absolutely nothing to do with the space hulk that just crashed into this planet. I expected some crashed terrain bits, planetary survivors fighting hulk survivors... not "oh yea this planet that was just hit by a space hulk, well it has this unrelated subplot going on right now with two factions that are unrelated to the hulk and to each other"
Well, you know who's great at missing opportunities?
Mr Hamer must be feeling bummed right about now. Looks like the glory days of KT21 are over. Guess that with LI and Old Wold getting added to the range, there is less room (and hence product resources) for sidegames such as KT21
Not keen on the Season launch stuff, but not keen on seeing another edition of Killteam either. If KT21 reaches EOL after season 3, I'll just collect all the books for it, and keep on playing it in its archived state
Lastly, it must be said, Valrak has had a 100% correct track record so far when it comes to KT21 rumours.. Even his original rumour regarding Octarius turned out to be correct, and he has since been right on the money
I had hoped that this would have been an on-ramp into KT and had the full rules, counters, measuring widgets etc. I play both these factions and want to get into KT, but really dislike paying full price to get a out of box rulebook.
Nevelon wrote: I had hoped that this would have been an on-ramp into KT and had the full rules, counters, measuring widgets etc. I play both these factions and want to get into KT, but really dislike paying full price to get a out of box rulebook.
Assuming you aren't content with just the free lite rules GW offers, your cheapest option is still buying the Kill Team starter from a discounter and selling off the miniatures to cover your costs partially. In addition to the Core Rules, I recommend getting at least the tokens, and these plus the barricades are also included in the starter
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dan2026 wrote: What other rumours has he said for any upcoming kill team releases?
I dont recall he has said anything definite yet, but he did mention hearing some chatter about "jump troops" for this season.. which now seems to be on point
Elsewhere, some juicy new rumours have surfaced, hinting at Elysians among other things.. but these rumours are reported to have originated from 4chan so IDK
Here are the 4chan rumours:
"›Box 2 is Spawn of Typhon (Genestealer Cults) vs Veritas Kill Team
(Deathwatch)
›Box 3 is Pit Gladiators (World Eaters) vs Elysian Mobile Infantry
(Imperial Guard)
›Box 4 is The Shadowspawned (Chaos Daemons) vs Strike Squad
Excalibur (Grey Knights)"
boatload off salt recommended.. I'll he keeping a tab on Valrak's youtube for more credible rumors down the line..
A guy from Spain was posting yesterday on reddit, says he got the rumours from a play tester and had said it was scouts vs scorpions (with mixed aspect, 9 models and 3 AP each) on Friday.
Their rumours were:
A new chaos cult vs genestealer cult
Tau vs Dark Eldar wracks (with new minis)
Tastyfish wrote: A guy from Spain was posting yesterday on reddit, says he got the rumours from a play tester and had said it was scouts vs scorpions (with mixed aspect, 9 models and 3 AP each) on Friday.
Their rumours were: A new chaos cult vs genestealer cult Tau vs Dark Eldar wracks (with new minis)
After that it's 3rd edition in September.
To be more precise, here's the exact post:
Hopefully this post won't be removed. These are the new KTs that will join our game until KT3:
- Craftworld Scorpions
- Scouts (box with scorpions, confirmed today)
- New Chaos Cult
- New Genestealer Cult
- New Tau
- New Drukhari Wracks - New minis
The composition of the next two boxes is unknown. It seems that after Craftworld vs Scouts (mid November) they expected next box to be sold by the end of December, but we don't know if this will finally happen.
The third box will come mid-end Q1 2024, and by mid-end of Q2 2024 new Kill Team 3 will be announced, expected official date for release by August/Sept (completing 3 year circle).
KT3 will simplify some rules (line of sight, obscured, climbing, among others). It is unknown if they will sell a Compendium for all the KTs by KT3 launch or the same rules will be used. It is unknown the new KTs for the starter box of KT3.
3 months prior post on reddit from same poster wrote:A close friend of mine (insider) told me this weekend that Craftworld is coming to KT hopefully by November.
Scorpions
Banshees
Dire Avengers
3 APL
9 agents
KT hability - you can buff at the beginning of an activation i.e. you can reroll, +1 attack, + circle movement etc.
So new Scorpion models confirmed.
They called the Striking Scorpions as part of a multi-Aspect Kill Team three months ago, which adds a bit more credence to their claims...but it could also just be a lucky guess.
They did not, unless there's been an update, call out specifics of who goes with what. They outright said that the composition is "unknown".
Lastly, it must be said, Valrak has had a 100% correct track record so far when it comes to KT21 rumours.. Even his original rumour regarding Octarius turned out to be correct, and he has since been right on the money
Octarius wasn't "his" rumor originally. It cropped up on B&C from someone else long before he ever started talking about it.
I'm not sure we will be seeing any more upgrade sprue teams.. the new release model of Season 3 throws all old assumptions to the trash. These might all be brand new kits from now on, and might even be more tailored towards filling out gaps in the 40K range rather than being KT21 specific boxes. We simply dont know until the next box gets released
From what the S3 launch box is looking, there doesn't seem to be much parts in the kits for "specialist" type of operatives, both the Scouts and Scorpions kit look like they might just as well be 40K kits with a KT21 labeling. Wouldn't want this to become a habit, makes for boring teams IMHO..
Valrak has said a few times on live streams that his understanding is that the Tau models this season are Vespids, but he's sounded a bit less sure about it than some of his more locked in rumours so take that for what it's worth.
I can't see them doing another squad of Chaos Cultists to be honest.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has said a few times on live streams that his understanding is that the Tau models this season are Vespids, but he's sounded a bit less sure about it than some of his more locked in rumours so take that for what it's worth.
I can't see them doing another squad of Chaos Cultists to be honest.
Vespid would be awesome! Maybe that Chaos cult is actually daemon KT?
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has said a few times on live streams that his understanding is that the Tau models this season are Vespids, but he's sounded a bit less sure about it than some of his more locked in rumours so take that for what it's worth.
I can't see them doing another squad of Chaos Cultists to be honest.
Note that he wasn't rumoring the Vespid. He kept talking about it being a "season of flight teams".
Were I betting man I would say that GW was on the fence about refreshing scouts and skorps for the fourth or fifth time so someone came up with the plan to sell them in two games for the price of one mold.
My question, any word about availability? Arbites have been out of stock for 6 months or more.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has said a few times on live streams that his understanding is that the Tau models this season are Vespids, but he's sounded a bit less sure about it than some of his more locked in rumours so take that for what it's worth.
I can't see them doing another squad of Chaos Cultists to be honest.
Note that he wasn't rumoring the Vespid. He kept talking about it being a "season of flight teams".
Flight teams for Tau could also include stealth suits. I think stealth suits or Vespid could be interesting for Tau. Vespid need the update more, but stealth teams could have some interesting gameplay. I think they could interact with the concealed state in some way, perhaps having a greater range of actions that can be completed whilst concealed.
Could Wracks be a misidentification of Grotesques?
The current wrack kit is pretty new, and is chock full of options. Meanwhile the Grotesque is a single Finecast monopose model that is only occasionally available on MTO.
Going with the idea that Scorpions got chucked into KT to generate sales and/or cover a third season GW didn’t anticipate the same could be a rationale for popping out the Grotesques rather than wait for the Drukhari codex.
A Coven KT could work well thematically with a Haemonclus, Wracks and Grotesques out hunting for interesting subjects or rare substances.
I know this is tying a lot of other speculative comments from other folks into a bundle with a cord of hopium.
Souleater wrote: Could Wracks be a misidentification of Grotesques?
The current wrack kit is pretty new, and is chock full of options.
They're also five per box for a basic troops choice, so upping the number would be nice. Or even adding detail OR EVEN JUST EARS to their heads.
Maybe it'll be an upgrade sprue like the Necron one, having a group of wracks with bits to make one into a junior haemonculus and a single grotesque to add on to the five.
Also says that he's hearing that after that is Swooping Hawks, Vespid and "jump Imperial Guard" (which sounds like someone not understanding that Elysian grav chutes are to me but that's a guess on my part). He seems a lot less sure about these last three though.
I am pretty confident that grav chutes in general could be used as jump packs in low gravity environments (such as on Harakon). Phantine is not explicitly stated to be a low grav world, to my knowledge, but has lots of large sky-fauna that suggest it does have lower gravity than standard.
Alternatively, those grav rigs are simply beefed up versions of standard grav chutes.
Haighus wrote: I am pretty confident that grav chutes in general could be used as jump packs in low gravity environments (such as on Harakon). Phantine is not explicitly stated to be a low grav world, to my knowledge, but has lots of large sky-fauna that suggest it does have lower gravity than standard.
Alternatively, those grav rigs are simply beefed up versions of standard grav chutes.
Grav Chutes, in general, could be used as pseudo-jump packs in any environment. They just tend to have limiters in place to make it so even relatively untrained troops can utilize them.
Kanluwen wrote: It's a Palanite Enforcer unit, but we have no real picture of the models.
Yeah, I was joking about that intervention (although it still should be burned to the ground ). BTW I hate that ''Palanite" instead proper Palatine.
Given it's still the Palatine Cluster and Hive Primus is 'The Palatine', I'm convinced that 'Palanite' was a typo that somehow made its way into the finished product for Enforcers because they were too embarrassed to correct it. That or just general SEO and/or copyright shenanigans.
New Valrak video with some Kill Team bits
As a reminder the current rumours are after the Striking Scorpions/Scouts box the next one is rumoured to be Mandrakes vs Night Lords upgrade kit
After that we have rumours for Vespids, Swooping Hawks, and a Guard jump pack unit.
New rumours are that the guard unit isn't actually Elysian Drop Troopers as thought before but Tempestus Scions.
Also a tiny bit about more SM with Jump Pack "that are calling everyone Horus" so Blood Angels?
Ehhh...Scions fit as a great, distinctively IMPERIAL unit. They're really let down by the paint job and insistence of the dumb loadout for the Tempestor Primes.
Elysians would be a great Kill Team, an opportunity for some very nice poses and special rules with the drop chutes.
This isn't WarCry, where they take risks. Whatever's coming has to end up fitting.
I'd rather see an updated Veteran Guardsman KT than an Elysian exclusive one.
Kill team is perfect for those scion/stormtrooper esque units that people will want just for collecting/painting without needing to back with a full army, but many people could/would also want for their new combined arms guard armies that are back to multi-mixing regiments.
Catachan devils (could double build as ork hunter firesweep teams)
Krieg Grenadiers (or engineers)
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Evidently, this has already happened with Kasrkin, and sort of similar but obviously not storm troopers in arbites and navy breachers.
new Scions.. didn't we just get Scions in the last KT21 box?
Would feel like a waste tbh
Anyways, give us the Season 3 starter already! With rumours about the second box already, it feels like the first two boxes of S3 will be releasing really close to each other
Matrindur wrote: New Valrak video with some Kill Team bits
As a reminder the current rumours are after the Striking Scorpions/Scouts box the next one is rumoured to be Mandrakes vs Night Lords upgrade kit
After that we have rumours for Vespids, Swooping Hawks, and a Guard jump pack unit.
New rumours are that the guard unit isn't actually Elysian Drop Troopers as thought before but Tempestus Scions.
Also a tiny bit about more SM with Jump Pack "that are calling everyone Horus" so Blood Angels?
You have my attention on all of this. Except Death Company - dgaf about them or anything Blood Angels really.
I mean, would love to get plastic Elysians, but I'm fine waiting, I'd rather they flesh out Death Korps first with more options instead of leaving us with just infantry squads. MT need more options, jump packs aren't quite the direction I would have liked them to go, but I'll take it.
But Vespids? I'm here for that. And S-Hawks too. And Mandrakes? Yeah they can join the party. I don't really care about the Night Lords upgrade kit, doesn't make much sense to me, unless they are going to continue down the path of removing all the Traitor Legions from the CSM book and leave it as a flavorless traitor marine book. That being said, WE need more love and EC should come first.
Matrindur wrote: New Valrak video with some Kill Team bits
As a reminder the current rumours are after the Striking Scorpions/Scouts box the next one is rumoured to be Mandrakes vs Night Lords upgrade kit
After that we have rumours for Vespids, Swooping Hawks, and a Guard jump pack unit.
New rumours are that the guard unit isn't actually Elysian Drop Troopers as thought before but Tempestus Scions.
Also a tiny bit about more SM with Jump Pack "that are calling everyone Horus" so Blood Angels?
Ok, several of those have my attention. Mandrakes? Sounds cool though a bit too late to get my interest since I just bought a few 3rd party ones. Vespids? If they don't look like ass also cool and might finally tip me into starting small Tau force based around auxiliaries. Guard jump infantry? Depends on what it looks like - if Scion based, I honestly hope it goes with the old Inquisitorial Stormtrooper models, I'd actually throw some money at that (if they are ever in stock. I don't think I've seen Kasrkin in stock a single time since they dropped, and I've been looking to grab a box to round out my metals).
Leaker over on tga just said the SS vs Scouts box will be the same price as the Warcry Hunter and the Hunted box (£80/105€) and its in the GW christmas guide it should be coming before the end of the year, either 9th or 16th December
H.B.M.C. wrote: A new Scion kit would likely end up nearly a head taller than the current one, and would look weird next to one another.
Depends how they do it. Could be done as an upgrade sprue, new backpacks and arm options. I could be wrong as I don't have any of the new Cadians yet, but I feel they are about the same size. I think it is just the Kasrkin that grew in size, as the new(ish) Breachers work with Admech and GSC as well.
Matrindur wrote: Also a tiny bit about more SM with Jump Pack "that are calling everyone Horus" so Blood Angels?
Sounds suspiciously like one of those BA/DC memes that do the rounds every now and then:
I'll actually be disappointed if they redo Death Company. Partially as I've just kit bashed old death company with Reivers and I think they do just nicely, but also because I think Sanguinary Guard should be done first. Unless the DC is just an upgrade sprue in the vein of the BT one, in which case that's just fine.
As a Blood Angels player, I have no desire nor need for Primaris Death Company models, and at this stage there is no way they'd make em firstborn. If I'd have to guess, they'll end up looking like blinged out versions of JP Assault Interecessors. With extra modled crosses and skulls on skulls on skulls, with angry skull tattoos on the skulls. yawn.
I'm really not digging this whole "In 3rd season of KT21, new bespoke KillTeams will just look like regular 40K squads" thing. If GW didn't want to produce Season 3 to begin with, it feels like a disservice to the game to castrate it just to a halfassed excuse to release 40K kits. The new terrain looks also unispiring and low effort af
I thought it was confirmed that there were female Scorpions in the new kit? IIRC, theres a couple of female heads, seems they went with the "no need for boobplate" approach to the body.
That’s true. But both AM and CoS managed to have female body shapes without going Raging Heroes.
Then look at the difference in otherwise very uniform models such as Stormcast which get a bit of extra variation thanks to male and female bodies. Something the recent Scorpions really could have done with rather than Tacticool Rocks.
Kind of an odd choice, though. Guardians have boobplate. Autarchs have boobplate. Banshees have boobplate. It's an established look, and it doesn't feel like Scorpions have armor that is so much bulkier as to reasonably hide female features.
I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
Striking Scorpions picture in spoilers, for easy reference. Because Warhammer Community's search function sucks.
Isnt the scorpions armor actually heavier than most other aspect warriors? IIRC they were the only aspect (or at least one of the few) to have a natural 3+ armor save in older editions of the game.
chaos0xomega wrote: Isnt the scorpions armor actually heavier than most other aspect warriors? IIRC they were the only aspect (or at least one of the few) to have a natural 3+ armor save in older editions of the game.
I think the dark reapers also had a 3+.
But yes, they were the “tougher” aspect warrior. Banshees hit harder, but were flimsy. Scorpions were less lethal, but took a hit better.
Geifer wrote: Kind of an odd choice, though. Guardians have boobplate. Autarchs have boobplate. Banshees have boobplate. It's an established look, and it doesn't feel like Scorpions have armor that is so much bulkier as to reasonably hide female features.
I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
Striking Scorpions picture in spoilers, for easy reference. Because Warhammer Community's search function sucks.
But all the Banshees have armour moulded with breasts, and we can assume that some of the warriors within are male – it's the aspect which is feminine, not the individual warriors. The reverse might apply elsewhere. It's symbolic, and also likely not relevant to a lot of the aspects.
chaos0xomega wrote: Isnt the scorpions armor actually heavier than most other aspect warriors? IIRC they were the only aspect (or at least one of the few) to have a natural 3+ armor save in older editions of the game.
I think the dark reapers also had a 3+.
But yes, they were the “tougher” aspect warrior. Banshees hit harder, but were flimsy. Scorpions were less lethal, but took a hit better.
More like Banshees were anti-elite, going first, reducing the number of attacks the enemy could make, and having low numbers of armour penetrating attacks while the Scorpions were anti-horde, with extra free hits on the charge and lots of low penetration attacks. They were tougher because even with all that their normal engagement protocol would have them up against a unit that would still have bodies left to return attacks.
Geifer wrote: I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
With their Sadako hair, a female mandrake should be able to preserve her modesty easily enough if GW really wanted to release one.
Geifer wrote: I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
With their Sadako hair, a female mandrake should be able to preserve her modesty easily enough if GW really wanted to release one.
Geifer wrote: I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
With their Sadako hair, a female mandrake should be able to preserve her modesty easily enough if GW really wanted to release one.
A couple of the newer female FEC models have gone that route. Although female Mandrakes could just wear halter tops.
Geifer wrote: I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
With their Sadako hair, a female mandrake should be able to preserve her modesty easily enough if GW really wanted to release one.
*looks at old Repentia*
*looks at new Repentia*
Careful what you wish for...
Blech. The only Repentia I recognise is the old 'lone wanderer' one from the Citadel Journal. To Hell with the nudie nuns.
Geifer wrote: I reserve the right to doubt female Mandrakes until I see actually see any. GW is mortally afraid of boobs and Mandrakes aren't exactly dressed very Victorian.
With their Sadako hair, a female mandrake should be able to preserve her modesty easily enough if GW really wanted to release one.
*looks at old Repentia*
*looks at new Repentia*
Careful what you wish for...
Blech. The only Repentia I recognise is the old 'lone wanderer' one from the Citadel Journal. To Hell with the nudie nuns.
I remember. It was a different concept from a bunch of half-naked girls with giant swords whipped to battle by a flagellatrice. The Inquisitor model was fugly though.
Love these! I really hope they expand this to the other legions moving forward. I don't know that I would cram all these bits onto a single Chaos Marine squad, but this is a ton of conversion fodder to theme an army with. Especially if they start rolling more options back out to the Chaos Lord (or if you just play other rules like I do).
Scottywan82 wrote: I really hope they expand this to the other legions moving forward.
They should start with a Noise Band.
I would love that. I can't believe it hasn't been done yet, honestly. It's the perfect way to update the unit without releasing an entire Emperor's Children Codex.
Scottywan82 wrote: I really hope they expand this to the other legions moving forward.
They should start with a Noise Band.
I would love that. I can't believe it hasn't been done yet, honestly. It's the perfect way to update the unit without releasing an entire Emperor's Children Codex.
Yeah, they could be a great forerunner of the madness awaiting us with the new Legion book, and the Primarch plastic model. It would be double important because both codex and the Primarch would probably not arive before the end of 10th edition.
The new Night Lords look derpy af like all 40K heretic Astartes. Overly busy with scary bling brought over from He-Man. not a fan.
Not seeing how these models couldn't just be another "counts as Legionary" conversion either. I hope the rules at least give some further distinction in their playstyle
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the batwings are super, super subdued compared to what they used to be.
Oh, absolutely! These are a lot better than the 80’s bat hats they used to have. And far more interesting than the new Dark Angels who somehow manage to be bland even for loyalist marines.
I’m thinking a rework of the Jungle Fighting rules from Codex: Catachan way back. Basically the entire board blocks LoS except for short ranges and designated “paths” and “clearings” which are otherwise open.
It would actually be practical on a KT board.
Does anybody know whats up with the Gallowfall Upgrade set? Wanted to order it from the web store but there is no button to put it in the shopping cart. No Sold out message either.
Yeah, KT21 is looking like its on life support until the next edition launches. A bit bummed as its been my fave 40K game but now I got AT and LI to get into. I will always have the stuff from the first two seasons, and still haven't even played Ashes of Faith campaign even once. GW is releasing so much stuff I barely have time to buy it hehehe!
It's not a lie unless they did it on purpose. I very much doubt that GW is happy to see the Kill Team releases pushed to next year either.
What is a problem is that they made a statement that turned out false and they didn't think to address it and apologize for the delay. That's sucky communication, if on par with what to expect from GW.
We have the list for preorders into January now and quel surprise, Kill Team is not on there. So that roadmap was a lie.
well Winter is either until end of February or end of March, not having anything until January still gives them 2 months for the 2nd part
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: IIRC Epic had to be pulped and reprinted, delaying The Olde World
which is based on wishful thinking by the community and as there is nothing indicating a release for TOW in 2023 except that it must be because 40 years of Warhammer and GW won't miss that opportunity
Kid_Kyoto wrote: IIRC Epic had to be pulped and reprinted, delaying The Olde World
which is based on wishful thinking by the community and as there is nothing indicating a release for TOW in 2023 except that it must be because 40 years of Warhammer and GW won't miss that opportunity
Except that the Valrak rumours that have been right about everything else said it was originally meant for 2023 but Legions Imperialis took its slot.
Sure there is a miniscule chance that rumour is wrong while every other one is right but come on
yet if true it would be actually very bad for TOW as the ranking of importance inside GW would be very very low
as for the big worldwide release with army sets in November GW would have already had those ready and produced before TOWs original release date and therefore would block warehouse space for half a year
or the release is so small that it does not matter if it sits on the shelf for months
That's a discount on the minis (which will be around $300 combined when they're released separately)... but not enough to warrant getting two, especially if you don't care about all the KT stuff.
Pariah Press wrote: Has there been any word about which aspect warriors will get rules support in this expansion?
I thought there was a blurb about mixed aspect KTs, but can’t find the reference. The plastics that are in scale should be a given, unsure about if they will bother with the ones still in finecast, or the non-infantry ones (shining spears could be a maybe, but crimson hinters should be right out)
The rational me thinks it'd be better just to buy the teams I like from ebay separately and then just buy the 2024 Annual for all the team rules later next summer, but the impulsive me kind of wants those Scouts ASAP as they are the last missing infantry models for my Angels (in the modern scale). Would need to know more about the cards, tokens and other doodads in the box to know if they are mandatory for playing Season 3. If they are, they will also be present on the next 3 boxes, or will be available separately.
I'm assuming Ash will have a video up about the box on saturday, but by then it might be already too late to commit, historically the last few KT21 boxes have sold out in minutes. OTOH there will be 3 more boxes like this, and I will always be able to get the Scouts from ebay at least.. maybe not worth stressing about it
That's a discount on the minis (which will be around $300 combined when they're released separately)... but not enough to warrant getting two, especially if you don't care about all the KT stuff.
At first I was a little suprised at the cost, then I realized that aspect boxes of five go for $45-$60 USD, and the scouts will either be $60 for ten or $45 for five as well... that's a lot of stuff. The single terrain sprue is underwhelming, but it's a good box.
That's a discount on the minis (which will be around $300 combined when they're released separately)... but not enough to warrant getting two, especially if you don't care about all the KT stuff.
At first I was a little suprised at the cost, then I realized that aspect boxes of five go for $45-$60 USD, and the scouts will either be $60 for ten or $45 for five as well... that's a lot of stuff. The single terrain sprue is underwhelming, but it's a good box.
This was my thoughts - these guys are going to be released as 5's I assume or logically the kill teams box offers no saving.
Since KT21 is on life support, its possible the saving in this box are marginal, at least compared to something like "Into The Dark", which was the best value KT21 box so far IMO
I know we have the new season, on the platform terrain, but I vaguely recall hearing we were due for a new edition/starter in the not-to-distant future?
Pretty sure we are not at the life support stage yet.
If anything, the upcoming box seems to be along the lines of "Crypt of Blood" for WarCry:
something that should have been a "mid-season" box to add some new scenery and reuse assets from the other ranges in a new format.
Nevelon wrote: I know we have the new season, on the platform terrain, but I vaguely recall hearing we were due for a new edition/starter in the not-to-distant future?
We can only hope the next edition will have an even more intuitive system for distances.
The one who invented current system for distances probably thought it is a very innovative game design
Apparently it exists because the writers playtested it with some people who have never played any wargames or more complex than monopoly, they didn't have tape measures handy or want to use them overly, so they wanted something they could easily use out the box ala board games and here we are.
The one who invented current system for distances probably thought it is a very innovative game design
Apparently it exists because the writers playtested it with some people who have never played any wargames or more complex than monopoly, they didn't have tape measures handy or want to use them overly, so they wanted something they could easily use out the box ala board games and here we are.
I haven't heard that (the part about monopoly and the tap measures). They did want an "all in one" boxed game though. During playtesting they didn't use shapes, everything was based on color only, they added the shapes later as an accessibility accommodation for those who struggle with color blindness, apparently the idea that there should be a degree of intuition to those symbols never really occurred to them as they apparently didn't have any actual color blind playtesters and everyone just referred to the distances by color the entire time. The design team was flabbergasted when the game eventually released and everyone referred to the distances by shape rather than by color, as it was completely unlike what they had experienced internally (which was, of course, due to the fact that originally everything was solely color based and there were no shapes to speak of, and adding the shapes later didn't override the established precedent of color for them). I think the fact that the measuring tools as sold are grey unpainted pieces of plastic that most people never bothered to paint probably also had something to do with the community shifting into shape recognition rather than color recognition as well. The apparent assumption that everyone would paint their measuring tools apparently overestimated the laziness of the community.
Kinda just goes to reinforce the idea that GWs designers are kind of out of touch with the playerbase and community, set up in their ivory towers as it were, from which they have a warped and distorted view of how people actually play their games.
The one who invented current system for distances probably thought it is a very innovative game design
Apparently it exists because the writers playtested it with some people who have never played any wargames or more complex than monopoly, they didn't have tape measures handy or want to use them overly, so they wanted something they could easily use out the box ala board games and here we are.
I bet that they invented that poorly thought out excuse after being pointed how absurd their system is.
Dudeface wrote:
Apparently it exists because the writers playtested it with some people who have never played any wargames or more complex than monopoly, they didn't have tape measures handy or want to use them overly, so they wanted something they could easily use out the box ala board games and here we are.
I bet that they invented that poorly thought out excuse after being pointed how absurd their system is.
There's another part, purportedly, in that the idea was to have a measuring tool that didn't require numbers on it to cut down on localization requirements and arguments.
It's no less absurd than the various "special" dice that many games seem to have as gimmicks these days.
It's no less absurd than the various "special" dice that many games seem to have as gimmicks these days.
Yeah agreed, but we are not talking that having such a tool is an absurd idea but that their implementation of that idea is absurd - see lord_blackfang's comment above which sums it up beautifully.
The story I heard was that to be compliant with ISO 9000 or whatever they could not use inches, so rather than come up with a game using centimeters they decided that triangles would equal 4" or whatever.
As far as I'm concerned, the game is on life support, until second edition launches next summer.. I constantly follow at least BLUE solid rumor sources and WHITE tubers so I know whassup
The WHC article revealed today doesnt get my hopes up tbh
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The story I heard was that to be compliant with ISO 9000 or whatever they could not use inches, so rather than come up with a game using centimeters they decided that triangles would equal 4" or whatever.
I don't see how ISO 9000 would apply here. Those standards are for organizational quality management, I can't for the life of me imagine how they would dictate a product design choice like that (especially when every other game in their product range uses inches).
Well thats the thing - 2 of the three games you listed are already out, and don't use triangles. And we have no indication TOW will either, so...
yeah, i assume the suggestion was a joke to begin with, but if someone was seriously trying to argue that it was a decision made for the purposes of ISO compliance they were incredibly off base.
Kanluwen wrote: It's no less absurd than the various "special" dice that many games seem to have as gimmicks these days.
You're missing what people are unhappy about: The shapes aren't intuative.
Triangle - a three-sided shape - doesn't equal 3". Square - a four-sided shape - doesn't equal 4". The shapes should correspond to distances, yet they don't.
Kanluwen wrote: It's no less absurd than the various "special" dice that many games seem to have as gimmicks these days.
You're missing what people are unhappy about: The shapes aren't intuative.
Triangle - a three-sided shape - doesn't equal 3". Square - a four-sided shape - doesn't equal 4". The shapes should correspond to distances, yet they don't.
Get it?
Still get a laugh that GW didn't do the obvious smart thing, and base the shape on the number of sides.
Also “people may not have tape measures so we need to provide a tool” still doesn’t stop you from providing a tool that uses numbers. [beats GWKT authors with a red whippy stick]
Which is why it comes with a grey measuring too with grey shapes on it.
Exactly like your Ultramarines in your Leviathan box
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Jadenim wrote: Also “people may not have tape measures so we need to provide a tool” still doesn’t stop you from providing a tool that uses numbers. [beats GWKT authors with a red whippy stick]
Eh, it is very rare that you need to measure anything longer than 10" in KT21. Most of a typical whippy stick would be unnecessary lenght
Say yall never played KT21 in your life, without saying you never played KT21 in your life
Which is why it comes with a grey measuring too with grey shapes on it.
Exactly like your Ultramarines in your Leviathan box
That would be a bad comparison even if the miniatures weren't generic and meant to be used for any chapter you like straight out of the box. Unlike for instance the Dark Vengeance Marines that are explicitly Dark Angels.
The Kill Team tool is a tool that comes with one of two identifiers for ranges, and relies on the owner to add the second identifier themselves. It's... optimistic to expect that of everyone. That means that by this choice alone GW slanted things in favor of the geometric shapes as the primary identifier for the range bands. Insisting that this role falls to the colors because of the designers' original intent is purely academic.
Geifer wrote: The Kill Team tool is a tool that comes with one of two identifiers for ranges, and relies on the owner to add the second identifier themselves. It's... optimistic to expect that of everyone. That means that by this choice alone GW slanted things in favor of the geometric shapes as the primary identifier for the range bands. Insisting that this role falls to the colors because of the designers' original intent is purely academic.
If GW expected people to paint their KT measuring tool, there would have been instructions to say how to get it right. I don't remember one being in any KT box I bought.
How difficult would it have been to put a push-fit cap for the measuring stick's shaped symbols?
But I really see your point. It's an odd way for new GW players to get in to a game, when even the game's 'simplified' measurement mechanism causes its own issues.
Say yall never played KT21 in your life, without saying you never played KT21 in your life
You don't need to play a game to recognise if a tool is unituitive. Obviously, having a grey tool with shapes that don't match the distances in side-number (or even an ascending complexity to match the increasing distances) to represent colour-coded distances is less intuitive than a colour-coded tool with shapes matching the side-numbers.
It isn't a huge deal, humans can adapt to some very unituitive stuff given practice. There is a video on Youtube of someone learning to ride a bike where turning the handlebars makes the wheel turn the opposite direction. But just because it can be done doesn't make it the best option and the symbol choice does make learning the game harder than a more intuitive system. I have played some KT and it was annoying. I've no doubt it was an annoyance that would fade with familiarity.
Really, people raise it more as a sign of insular thinking and poor accessibility consideration in GW than a big issue in its own right. Something this obvious should have been picked up by a big company. My partner works in user-centred design and noticed it immediately. They don't play wargames.
I often find myself saying "maybe I'm simply wired up differently" but I have 0 issues with using a tool where if the rules tell me to use the symbol face value, I use the symbol the face value on the tool? I don't even require the need to stop and consider if the tringle means 3, or if the circle means 1, because those values aren't immediately relevant to me or the game.
If they were intending to make a real effort blending distance I'd agree it's a problem, but I think people are over analysing a game aid that does what it says on the tin to a large degree?
Most people seem to be getting caught up on it being a missed opportunity. 2" is difficult to make a shape for, but 1, 3 and 5 are simple to have done.
Dudeface wrote: I often find myself saying "maybe I'm simply wired up differently" but I have 0 issues with using a tool where if the rules tell me to use the symbol face value, I use the symbol the face value on the tool?
That's not the point of contention at all. No one's saying that's it difficult to follow symbols.
The issue is why they didn't make it more intuitive at the start, and have the shape sides correspond with the distances.
Skinnereal wrote: Most people seem to be getting caught up on it being a missed opportunity. 2" is difficult to make a shape for, but 1, 3 and 5 are simple to have done.
It might be difficult if you need the lines to form a closed geometric shape. If your goal is just to have a logically ascending order to recurring elements in your symbols, it's as easy as giving a single bar ( "I" ) for 1", two bars ( "=" ) for 2", three bars (triangle) for 3" and six bars (hexagon) for 6".
Skinnereal wrote: Most people seem to be getting caught up on it being a missed opportunity. 2" is difficult to make a shape for, but 1, 3 and 5 are simple to have done.
Well yes, but does it matter enough to be annoyed by it? If you're working in inches the shapes are irrelevant, if you work in shapes you just use whatever shape the book says?
Could they have made triangle = 3? Yes? Not sure its worth of being annoyed about though.
Yeah, the concept was sound, but the implementation was bad. Most games that have measuring tools and non-inch based movements do something sane, like call them "Range 1", "Range 2", and "Range 3" or whatever, and its intuitive and easy to understand and you still have no idea how many inches you're talking about but nobody gives a damn. The GW implementation was just unnecessarily obtuse and nonsensical.
Which is why it comes with a grey measuring too with grey shapes on it.
Exactly like your Ultramarines in your Leviathan box
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: Also “people may not have tape measures so we need to provide a tool” still doesn’t stop you from providing a tool that uses numbers. [beats GWKT authors with a red whippy stick]
Eh, it is very rare that you need to measure anything longer than 10" in KT21. Most of a typical whippy stick would be unnecessary lenght
Say yall never played KT21 in your life, without saying you never played KT21 in your life
Wasn’t suggesting that you need the whippet sticks for KT, just that they are an example of GW providing a tool in the box to allow you to measure distances without needing any extra equipment. Necromunda came with little transparent rulers for the same reason. In neither case did it they feel the need to use abstract geometric shapes in place of simple numbers.
As a result, building a Blades of Khaine kill team is a slightly different experience – all you need to do is pick a single Exarch from one of these three shrines, and any combination of seven Aspect Warrior operatives. You can select a full team of brand new Striking Scorpions, or opt for Dire Avengers, or Howling Banshees, or any combination of all three.
Instead of relying on fixed specialists, any operative may instead use an Aspect Technique during their activation. There are five Aspect Techniques associated with each shrine, meaning 15 in total – think of them like Tactical Ploys that you can use for free, allowing operatives to shrug off injuries, leap great distances, and fade into the shadows with preternatural skill
If it is on life support then its getting the fruit and beverage treatment with Bupa. Other games still can't even get an appointment with the NHS.
I doubt the game is on life support. I think KT21 is biggest hit GW has had since LOTR, and I really, really doubt GW is going to drop it, although I've been surprised before.
What I think is striking is that after season 2 was marred by supply issues, it continued to grow. However, this new box is basically a 40k early release box with a single terrain sprue. Into the dark (which was widely available) had two bespoke kill teams and a full board of terrain. this new box has two boxes that aren't even upgrade sprues for new Kill teams, they're just new squads. So, this seems like a pretty mild investment into the game.
Yeah, the "life support" claims are kinda silly to me, but I also think the whole "biggest hit since LOTR" is pure hyperbole. KT does not have a significant community behind it, most of the sales of KT product is going to 40k players snatching it up to get new units for their armies at a discount and parting out the rest. As a product line I think its doing phenomenally well, as a game I think thats not really the case.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, the "life support" claims are kinda silly to me, but I also think the whole "biggest hit since LOTR" is pure hyperbole. KT does not have a significant community behind it, most of the sales of KT product is going to 40k players snatching it up to get new units for their armies at a discount and parting out the rest. As a product line I think its doing phenomenally well, as a game I think thats not really the case.
I hear the game is very popular in Continental Europe, appears to be a big deal there. Maybe not so much in the US.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, the "life support" claims are kinda silly to me, but I also think the whole "biggest hit since LOTR" is pure hyperbole. KT does not have a significant community behind it, most of the sales of KT product is going to 40k players snatching it up to get new units for their armies at a discount and parting out the rest. As a product line I think its doing phenomenally well, as a game I think thats not really the case.
,
I don't think it's hyperbole, if anything it's damning GW with faint praise. And, sure, I'm being a little cheeky because I'm not counting new editions of 40k or AOS, which is of course a much bigger game than Kill Team. But after the big two of 40k and WFB/AOS... what's been the biggest #3 game for them?
I see a lot of coverage for kill Team, and when events branch out from 40k/AOS, it seems that Kill team is the third system added most of the time.
I mean, to be fair, I have tons of KT stuff and I've never once actually played KT. Never even read the rules. I just wanted all the stuff that came with KT (models and terrain).
It's not on life support, it's just that GW has realised they can make more money from it (and Warcry) by selling the terrain in a different box to the new factions, and so have changed up the release format.
Even if KT, the game itself, was on life support, the boxes are still selling like hotcakes. With a few exceptions, they've mostly been knocking it out the park since Moroch.
Well, here in Poland KT is thriving. It's big WH40K, not to mention AoS that are struggling.
As for the new set, I think putting 10 Scorpions in the box, when you will never use more than 8 (and even this is going to be a cornercase scenario) and not providing any other Aspects at the same time is a pretty gakky practice as far as being consumer friendly is concerned.
Aspect mini-stratagem seem fine. I guess ot will require some tedious bookkeeping/heavy token use, but the range of options and choices with every activation seems cool. I just hope this wealth of options won't result in extra analysis paralysis amongst Eldar players 😉
Cyel wrote: As for the new set, I think putting 10 Scorpions in the box, when you will never use more than 8 (and even this is going to be a cornercase scenario) and not providing any other Aspects at the same time is a pretty gakky practice as far as being consumer friendly is concerned.
Aspect mini-stratagem seem fine. I guess ot will require some tedious bookkeeping/heavy token use, but the range of options and choices with every activation seems cool. I just hope this wealth of options won't result in extra analysis paralysis amongst Eldar players 😉
Oh come on. Would you rather they came in a box of 8? Would you rather they charged you the same price for including the existing older aspects? Would you still end up with spare minis anyway?
Talk about a complaint for the sakes of a complaint.
I'd rather they offered, for example, 3 of each aspect + 1 Exarch instead of making me pay for models I'm never going to need and not providing models I'm actually going to need. I fail to see how this is not a valid complaint.
Cyel wrote: I'd rather they offered, for example, 3 of each aspect + 1 Exarch instead of making me pay for models I'm never going to need and not providing models I'm actually going to need. I fail to see how this is not a valid complaint.
Because they'd need to not only recut sprues for the other aspects or produce new sculpts that they can't sell for 40k, but then produce an additional unit for scorpions on top of that.
Well, my perspective is of a KT player. These 2 extra Scorpions are totally unnecessary. Somehow GW managed not to sell unusable models in other KT boxes.
Cyel wrote: Well, my perspective is of a KT player. These 2 extra Scorpions are totally unnecessary. Somehow GW managed not to sell unusable models in other KT boxes.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
Cyel wrote: Well, my perspective is of a KT player. These 2 extra Scorpions are totally unnecessary. Somehow GW managed not to sell unusable models in other KT boxes.
They come in sprues of 5, so it was either 5 or 10. There is no 8.
These are 40k model kits being used by a side game. It is completely unreasonable to want them to recut existing sprues - especially of new releases - for this.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
How is it extra value? It's nothing but extra waste.
As I said, I'd rather have a team like older KT teams with options available to this team than surplus useless stuff at the cost of actually useful options being absent. Hell, even if you insist on me, a KT player , caring about what 40k players get, putting in 5 models from 2 different aspects would make more sense as all these models would be usable in different combinations.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
How is it extra value? It's nothing but extra waste.
As I said, I'd rather have a team like older KT teams with options available to this team than surplus useless stuff at the cost of actually useful options being absent. Hell, even if you insist on me, a KT player , caring about what 40k players get, putting in 5 models from 2 different aspects would make more sense as all these models would be usable in different combinations.
You get 2 free models, why is this something to complain about? If they put 2 sets of 5 different aspects in, I assume you still won't squeeze in all 10, so same problem.
Things you can do with your extra models that are indicative of extra value:
- gift them to someone to show you're a nice human
- try different paint schemes
- use them for conversions
- use them to create spare exarch to swap in with a different load out
- sell them to people who want to add 2 scorpions to their kill teams
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
If he only plays Kill Team it's a valid complaint, he's subsidizing the production of what is clearly a 40k sprue designed for the needs of 40k players, not Kill Team players, but shoehorned into a Kill Team box.
Now personally I always thought it was a little bit insane how GW was throwing massive resources at very temporary Kill Team product (and Warcry even more so) while some factions in the main systems languish with ancient models. So this is a good move in my eyes. But I get why someone who isn't interested in the wider GW ecosystem would hate it.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
If he only plays Kill Team it's a valid complaint, he's subsidizing the production of what is clearly a 40k sprue designed for the needs of 40k players, not Kill Team players, but shoehorned into a Kill Team box.
Now personally I always thought it was a little bit insane how GW was throwing massive resources at very temporary Kill Team product (and Warcry even more so) while some factions in the main systems languish with ancient models. So this is a good move in my eyes. But I get why someone who isn't interested in the wider GW ecosystem would hate it.
Is it though? The rules are there to support a kill team made from the minis in this box. It honestly sounds like if there were only 8 scorpions in the box it wouldn't be a complaint for some reason. The fact there isn't an aspect host kill team with bespoke new minis maybe sucks, the fact it's not 5 dire avengers and 5 scorpions might be a disappointment, but the point stands that GW is selling a box themed around a striking scorpion kill team, with rules for them, with more than enough models to make the team... but this is a problem because it has 2 too many minis.
I take you back to:
I think putting 10 Scorpions in the box, when you will never use more than 8 (and even this is going to be a cornercase scenario) and not providing any other Aspects at the same time is a pretty gakky practice as far as being consumer friendly is concerned
- the complaint is they put too much in and not the things they wanted it to be being consumer-unfriendly.
Cyel wrote: I'd rather they offered, for example, 3 of each aspect + 1 Exarch instead of making me pay for models I'm never going to need and not providing models I'm actually going to need. I fail to see how this is not a valid complaint.
None of the sprues are formatted that way. Even if it's a nice idea, it's a non-starter, so it's a choice between this and simply not having Aspect Warrior kill teams at all.
Cyel wrote: I'd rather they offered, for example, 3 of each aspect + 1 Exarch instead of making me pay for models I'm never going to need and not providing models I'm actually going to need. I fail to see how this is not a valid complaint.
None of the sprues are formatted that way. Even if it's a nice idea, it's a non-starter, so it's a choice between this and simply not having Aspect Warrior kill teams at all.
But it's a choice GW makes entirely arbitrarily. They could make a bespoke Aspect Kill Team sprue with 2 of each Aspect or whatever if they wanted to. Would it be a rational use of resources? I dunno, probably not worse than the more than a dozen different sprues of Warcry terrain that have all gone out of print within months of release.
Yup, the product is not tailored to what an Aspect Warrior KT player needs. In the past KT teams were better tailored to this. I don't "hate" it, it's just a product. I just wish it it got as much attention as older bespoke teams instead of being a wh40k product thrown randomly into a KT box
Cyel wrote: Well, my perspective is of a KT player. These 2 extra Scorpions are totally unnecessary. Somehow GW managed not to sell unusable models in other KT boxes.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
Your point is very good( I'll probably put in an order ), but Cyel is also making one from the perspective of the game itself; team variety.
What they should have done is 5 Scorpions and 5 Warp Spiders, or Banshees or Avengers. While one still would have had two left over models, they would have all been unique model sculpts instead of doubles( not to mention two Exarchs to choose from as a leader ). And it would actually serve the game itself by not having only one aspect warrior to field, better illustrating the mix'n'match feature.
If the Scouts still have their options from the old kit then they'll be varied enough for 8-10 models.
Personal niggle is that GW could have done a Banshee & Storm Guardian team in the meantime. Shouldn't have had to wait two years just to put the banshees on the table.
Cyel wrote: Well, my perspective is of a KT player. These 2 extra Scorpions are totally unnecessary. Somehow GW managed not to sell unusable models in other KT boxes.
Take a step back. You're complaining that, for the same price, you're getting more than you need you're complaining that you have too much additional value. They're releasing a striking scorpions themed box, they included enough to accomplish a striking scorpions kill team, with extra stuff, and you're complaining, they gave you too many models?
Your point is very good( I'll probably put in an order ), but Cyel is also making one from the perspective of the game itself; team variety.
What they should have done is 5 Scorpions and 5 Warp Spiders, or Banshees or Avengers. While one still would have had two left over models, they would have all been unique model sculpts instead of doubles( not to mention two Exarchs to choose from as a leader ). And it would actually serve the game itself by not having only one aspect warrior to field, better illustrating the mix'n'match feature.
If the Scouts still have their options from the old kit then they'll be varied enough for 8-10 models.
Personal niggle is that GW could have done a Banshee & Storm Guardian team in the meantime. Shouldn't have had to wait two years just to put the banshees on the table.
My qualm was saying that having too many scorpions I'm the box made it so it wasn't customer friendly, it's maybe a little dull it being 2x5 scorpions, I can agree to that, but they were never going to get this right. There will always be too many models if they use 40k sprues. If they included 2 aspects, that still doesn't cover all options for the kill team. If they created a new kill team box with 3-4 of each aspect in, that's not customer friendly to anyone who wanted to only use 1 or 2 aspects.
GW could put any combination of stuff in here, the only one that wouldn't end in a complaint is if it was a box of 8 scorpions with specific gubbins, in a team that can only take scorpions.
But it's still the only time I've known a GW release criticised for including too many minis.
My qualm was saying that having too many scorpions I'm the box made it so it wasn't customer friendly, it's maybe a little dull it being 2x5 scorpions, I can agree to that, but they were never going to get this right. There will always be too many models if they use 40k sprues. If they included 2 aspects, that still doesn't cover all options for the kill team. If they created a new kill team box with 3-4 of each aspect in, that's not customer friendly to anyone who wanted to only use 1 or 2 aspects.
GW could put any combination of stuff in here, the only one that wouldn't end in a complaint is if it was a box of 8 scorpions with specific gubbins, in a team that can only take scorpions.
But it's still the only time I've known a GW release criticised for including too many minis.
Of course and thats why I made it clear that you had a very good point before elaborating; the Warcry Starter is an example of going the other way - you only get half teams, so this is clearly better. Also, one could feel free to convert those last two scorpion models so one could at least see a slightly different team between games; or maybe represent a specialist if the game has such Scorpion characters.
And it'll very likely be a case of the Scorpions being the best Eldar unit in Kill Team, as was the case in the last edition. So its not a bad thing for Eldar players.
Hellebore wrote: Is an apl3 for aspects new? I thought only marines and Harlequins got that.
Yeah, it's new. The Dire Avengers in the Compendium only had APL 2.
Do we think avengers will stay apl2 but the banshees and scorpions will be apl3?
I'd like to think the aspects will be elite like they should be.
Dire Avengers ARE an aspect, aren't they? You mean Guardians?
No they only showed banshee and scorpion stats. The apl isnt a group stat, and they may not republish the avenger profile with a new apl, just say take them from the craftworld list.
Shakalooloo wrote: Other previous Kill Teams havce had more members in the box than they can have on the board, so it's nothing new with the Aspect Warriors.
Sort of. I think the difference here is that in previous boxes you could still build the excess models differently and have them in your list. So for tournament or campaign play you could swap them in or out.
My understanding with this is the variety in this team comes from different aspects, but the individuals models don't have builds that are any different (in Kill Team) - so there's literally no point to building those last three models, because they do the exact same thing in game as the other five.
So it's a bit weird. Hardly unforgivable, but yeah it does seem it'd make more sense to design the in-box team around those models then publish the combined aspects team in White Dwarf instead. Or as some have said, do a new sprue with three of each. *That* wouldn't be anything new as you've always been restricted with what you could build.
I think the real question is how well a five Scorpion team plays. Not in power level, just in fun. It feels like it basically locks you out of the most interesting element of this team, but I could be wrong be there.
All this is further proof of the game's dwindling status in terms of resource allocation from GW. Salvation box is prioritizing 40K players' thirst for models over KT21 players enjoyment. You can bet the box being hard to find for KT21 players due to 40K players buying it just for the models. Not a fan, but it is what it is.. at least we get something rather than nothing for a year until 2nd edition
I recommend all you KT21 players sell off your extra Scorpions sprue for added savings, you'll be able to sell it easily
tauist wrote: All this is further proof of the game's dwindling status in terms of resource allocation from GW. Salvation box is prioritizing 40K players' thirst for models over KT21 players enjoyment.
It means nothing of the sort.
Every KT model release is a 40k release*. KT just affords them the ability (and budget) to make more outlandish things that would be difficult to slot onto the Codex cycle.
*With the exception of the Rogue Trader box from 1st Ed KT, but even that made it to 40k.
However, the upcoming Night Lords sprue was said to be the largest upgrade sprue for Kill Team yet, right? Right now it seems somewhat random how many resources each wave has allocated to it.
tauist wrote: You can bet the box being hard to find for KT21 players due to 40K players buying it just for the models.
40k fans should know by now that the KT teams are released a while later. Other KT squad had extra accessory sprues, making the KT boxes more desirable than the 40k ones.
If the KT starter costs less than 2x KT squad boxes, that's where 40k players will swarm on them.
lord_blackfang wrote: However, the upcoming Night Lords sprue was said to be the largest upgrade sprue for Kill Team yet, right? Right now it seems somewhat random how many resources each wave has allocated to it.
Aspect Warrior get no accessories, so a basic KT squad of Scorpions makes sense.
lord_blackfang wrote: However, the upcoming Night Lords sprue was said to be the largest upgrade sprue for Kill Team yet, right? Right now it seems somewhat random how many resources each wave has allocated to it.
Yeah.
Though also I guess it’s less an upgrade sprue and more a Night Lords sprue.
As in like for 40k it’s a chapter upgrade sprue to make a regular unit still, as opposed to being geared towards KT rules. (While cleverly fitting in them perfectly I’m sure/hope).
Probably just based on Warcry got that one right?
I’m guessing it’ll be existing stuff nothing exciting. Though as things have 40K use maybe something better.
Maybe at the end of this season if it’s a big box. (First in the season I’d normally bigger with rules right? But that hasn’t happened this time anyway)
Shakalooloo wrote: Other previous Kill Teams havce had more members in the box than they can have on the board, so it's nothing new with the Aspect Warriors.
Sort of. I think the difference here is that in previous boxes you could still build the excess models differently and have them in your list. So for tournament or campaign play you could swap them in or out.
My understanding with this is the variety in this team comes from different aspects, but the individuals models don't have builds that are any different (in Kill Team) - so there's literally no point to building those last three models, because they do the exact same thing in game as the other five.
So it's a bit weird. Hardly unforgivable, but yeah it does seem it'd make more sense to design the in-box team around those models then publish the combined aspects team in White Dwarf instead. Or as some have said, do a new sprue with three of each. *That* wouldn't be anything new as you've always been restricted with what you could build.
I think the real question is how well a five Scorpion team plays. Not in power level, just in fun. It feels like it basically locks you out of the most interesting element of this team, but I could be wrong be there.
I suspect you are mistaken and KT players will be able to make full use of 10 models in the box. 7 regular Scorpions and 2-3 Exarch models with different loadouts. Seems fine to me.
And I for one will gladly be picking this up, as the Aspect Warrior lore befits the non-specialist route GW took with this release. Now, if this 40K squad in a KT box continues for the rest of the season, then I will be perturbed. ...Will be selling off those scouts though (Phobos are proper Marine-scouts).
tauist wrote: All this is further proof of the game's dwindling status in terms of resource allocation from GW. Salvation box is prioritizing 40K players' thirst for models over KT21 players enjoyment.
It means nothing of the sort.
Every KT model release is a 40k release*. KT just affords them the ability (and budget) to make more outlandish things that would be difficult to slot onto the Codex cycle.
*With the exception of the Rogue Trader box from 1st Ed KT, but even that made it to 40k.
If you dont get what I mean, lets just agree to disagree and move on
Shakalooloo wrote: Other previous Kill Teams havce had more members in the box than they can have on the board, so it's nothing new with the Aspect Warriors.
Sort of. I think the difference here is that in previous boxes you could still build the excess models differently and have them in your list. So for tournament or campaign play you could swap them in or out.
My understanding with this is the variety in this team comes from different aspects, but the individuals models don't have builds that are any different (in Kill Team) - so there's literally no point to building those last three models, because they do the exact same thing in game as the other five.
So it's a bit weird. Hardly unforgivable, but yeah it does seem it'd make more sense to design the in-box team around those models then publish the combined aspects team in White Dwarf instead. Or as some have said, do a new sprue with three of each. *That* wouldn't be anything new as you've always been restricted with what you could build.
I think the real question is how well a five Scorpion team plays. Not in power level, just in fun. It feels like it basically locks you out of the most interesting element of this team, but I could be wrong be there.
I suspect you are mistaken and KT players will be able to make full use of 10 models in the box. 7 regular Scorpions and 2-3 Exarch models with different loadouts. Seems fine to me.
And I for one will gladly be picking this up, as the Aspect Warrior lore befits the non-specialist route GW took with this release. Now, if this 40K squad in a KT box continues for the rest of the season, then I will be perturbed. ...Will be selling off those scouts though (Phobos are proper Marine-scouts).
If you can build all three exarchs from the kit then yes, I don't see the problem either.
For those who wonder how big the new Scouts are, I also made a scale comparison with all of the older Scout models, plus other Marines and human-sized models.
For those who wonder how big the new Scouts are, I also made a scale comparison with all of the older Scout models, plus other Marines and human-sized models.
For those who wonder how big the new Scouts are, I also made a scale comparison with all of the older Scout models, plus other Marines and human-sized models.
Much obliged! Thats a hard pass for me now..
thanks again
Why are they so big though? Do Primaris Marine Chapters only recruit from Primaris Humans to make Primaris Scouts that go onto become Primaris Marines?
For those who wonder how big the new Scouts are, I also made a scale comparison with all of the older Scout models, plus other Marines and human-sized models.
Kill Team: Salvation can be preordered from Saturday, October 14, 2023.
Secured my preorder of 2 copies of salvation. Passed on the terrain box, the half-size gantries seem like a miss to me, can't justify spending that much on the ferratonic furnace alone. If there was a clearer plan as to what the gantries could be used with/for I'd feel a bit different, but they have no real functionality with my existing mechanicus terrain.
chaos0xomega wrote: Secured my preorder of 2 copies of salvation. Passed on the terrain box, the half-size gantries seem like a miss to me, can't justify spending that much on the ferratonic furnace alone. If there was a clearer plan as to what the gantries could be used with/for I'd feel a bit different, but they have no real functionality with my existing mechanicus terrain.
They are probably half height Mechanicus, which should be very nice, sadly there's no stairs or ladders to connect floor to half height or half height to full height. I passed too, based on this lack of functionality and not being a particularly good deal financially, but would grab them if I saw them heavily discounted.
From some of the unboxing and review videos I've found, they look more like 2/3rds height than half. Seeing them from different angles next to the ferratonic furnace it looks like 2 of them stacked on top eachother would be taller than the furnace which makes them useless in that regard.
chaos0xomega wrote: From some of the unboxing and review videos I've found, they look more like 2/3rds height than half. Seeing them from different angles next to the ferratonic furnace it looks like 2 of them stacked on top eachother would be taller than the furnace which makes them useless in that regard.
EDITED
Okay so I went around and looking intently at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_sLZ4YQ45c I have to conclude you're right, they're at least 5mm taller than half Mechanicus. Also worth noting is that while the square cornered platforms are proper Sector Mechanicus with filled bottoms with connector holes, the round platform around the furnace has a hollow bottom with a negative image of the top texture on it, like the underside of Zone Mortalis tiles. Good to know.
Okay having watched a second review from someone who is a bit less of a clown, I revise my findings, the columns are properly half height and even have a 5mm removable section to account for the thickness of the platforms if you stack them to full Sector Mechanicus height.
I am surprised GW doesn't do those compatibility articles at the time of the release. It would really hype these up, especially when the terrain seems this lackluster otherwise.
chaos0xomega wrote: It was presented as conjecture, the reviewer doesn't seem to have tested or proven it out
You can see the stacking in the build guide flipthrough. An optional layer to accommodate presence or absence of a middle floor is also consistent with Zone Mortalis columns.
So you're thinking the setup of 2 stackable columns and ~5mm baseplate allows you to integrate with both Sector Mechanicus and Zone Mortalis depending how you configure it?
chaos0xomega wrote: So you're thinking the setup of 2 stackable columns and ~5mm baseplate allows you to integrate with both Sector Mechanicus and Zone Mortalis depending how you configure it?
Well, integrate is a strong word for just matching height. You can stack the new legs two tall and connect to old platforms but at that point you're just using the new kit to replicate the old kit. As I initially said, the problem is that there are no new transition pieces between new (half) height and old (full) height. Now, I think Zone Mortalis stairs should have the correct height to bridge the two exactly but I don't think they have the connectors to natively link up with Sector Mechanicus so it's still going to be a jury rig, or at best you might make them free standing.
Honestly our best bet is to wait for the probable sculptor @Owen_Patten to publish something either on his socials or WarCom.
Isn't it fair to assume that followup boxes might include those adapter pieces though? I didn't think the new terrain box would be the only one for this season? They plan to release more right?
chaos0xomega wrote: Isn't it fair to assume that followup boxes might include those adapter pieces though? I didn't think the new terrain box would be the only one for this season? They plan to release more right?
We can assume there will be more parts for this theme coming for the rest of this season but not what those parts might be. Gallowdark did not to my knowledge receive any new physical functionality in expansions, only scatter and alternative wall plugs, and the sprue of scatter in the main Kill Team box does not fill me with confidence in this regard. The hollow underside of the round platform is also a big turnoff for me for further investment into this set.
According to the GMG review I saw, the best thing about this box were the faction specific cardstock. Dont feel too bad about missing out on this one, I'll just buy the Annual 2024 book once its out and save my monies for the 2nd edition launch next summer. LI will be enough of a money pit in the meantime..
Kind of bummed about those Scouts though. Would have been a nice upgrade to the old kit, but alas, they scale creeped em to far from current firstborn Marine scales.. Vintage metal minis seem like my best option for now
For those who wonder how big the new Scouts are, I also made a scale comparison with all of the older Scout models, plus other Marines and human-sized models.
It's been said before but I'll join the choir and say it again... thanks for the scale comparison! Always good to know just how big the primariscouts actually are.
OK I think I like the new format, with reference cards and all that for each team. That’s a huge QoL boost and also an extra 20-30 quid if they’re sold separately later.
Ancient Otter wrote: The Primaries Grapnel guns would be out of proportion for the old Scout models, right?
Judging by the pictures stahly provided the grapnel gun isn't any larger than a bolter. The hands of the new Scouts seem comparable in size to the old ones as well. I don't think a hand swap or using a Reiver grapnel gun would look out of place.
It's been a while since I played around with Marine bits but I think power armored Primaris arms are just a little bit longer than old Marine arms. I suspect the same is true of the new Scouts and a full arm swap might edge into awkward territory on the stockier old models.
Any chance of you ever providing some context as to why we should watch these videos, Shadow Walker, rather than just spamming threads with them without commentary?
These videos have a specific target - people with reading disabilities or those who can't be bothered to read the rules themselves. I know they are confusingly labeled "reviews" but no, it's just a person reading every word of the text of the rules (and numbers too), occasionally adding "oh, I guess it's good" or something similar.
Cyel wrote: These videos have a specific target - people with reading disabilities or those who can't be bothered to read the rules themselves. I know they are confusingly labeled "reviews" but no, it's just a person reading every word of the text of the rules (and numbers too), occasionally adding "oh, I guess it's good" or something similar.
Which is exactly the sort of information I like to have when deciding if I need to buy a book, rather than some mook's personal opinion on the contents.
Dysartes wrote: Any chance of you ever providing some context as to why we should watch these videos, Shadow Walker, rather than just spamming threads with them without commentary?
I post them so people looking for the particular product could have some info before buying the expensive boxes. They are all relevant to the particular thread so I thought that there need not to be an additional info explaining what they are about.
Haha, I actually don't buy the books at all, I see them a waste of money considering how quickly out of date they get.
To quote myself from the TOW discussion:
"...my opinion is based on some KT games, one in particular, when I had to tell my book-using Hierotek Circle opponent "this is not not how this rule works now, please stop referring to the book" like 10 times.
...At one point one of the guys in our group wanted to give away some of his KT books... and nobody wanted them, even for free."
That gives a very good indication that a Terminator Killteam is in the pipe.
Edit:
Scratch that. I saw a zoomed in version. It looks like there is a 40K logo on it and they only used the kill team shape, but intend this for general usage as a short distance measurement tool.
Manchu wrote: Who are NLs fighting in the next release? GSC?
The current rumours are:
CSM Night Lords vs DE Mandrakes
Then it's some combination of these four to complete the season: Tau Vespids, GSC, Eldar Swooping Hawks, Guard/Scions
That gives a very good indication that a Terminator Killteam is in the pipe.
When this KT season is finished, I wonder if we'll see a new season/edition on a slightly larger 'scale'. It would be interesting to see them move away from releasing GEQ units in favour of more upscaled TEQs. An assault terminator kit is especially overdue.
The vespid vs hawks rumours I thought were from a shakier source than the night lords ones (of Valrak's sources) that came out back when there was talk of the 'season of flyers'.
There's a competing set of rumours from reddit that has Chaos vs Genestealers and Tau vs Covens as the next two. Guess we'll find out next weekend (or in the previews running up to it).
Mandrakes make a lot of sense because of the infiltration theme.
So maybe also a T’au stealthsuit team. Although I sure would love to see plastic Vespid.
Looks like it might be Mandrakes from this preview - I still find it hard to imagine that we're going to get Scorpions/Banshees/Dire Avengers as a team and an entirely separate Swooping Hawks one in the same season though.
Wasn't the Swooping Hawks and Vespid thing all just "speculation"? I remember Valrak kept waffling about, and his videos are annoying to watch because of that.
Personal opinion:
Mandrakes aren't going to be part of a "vs" box. Night Lords and Mandrakes(if true) might be coming as individual KTs, released ala the Vulkyn Flameseekers and Kruleboy Monster Hunters, whenever the next box comes out.
Feels a bit strange to mix up the new format that quickly? There is a bit of Bheta-Decima terrain we've not seen official previewed, something a bit crate-y - so at least one more sprue of terrain/objectives to go somewhere too.
Tastyfish wrote: Feels a bit strange to mix up the new format that quickly? There is a bit of Bheta-Decima terrain we've not seen official previewed, something a bit crate-y - so at least one more sprue of terrain/objectives to go somewhere too.
Gallowdark had a new sprue with each new box-set, so presumably we'll get a little something for each release this wave, even if they're not bundling the basic terrain in for a big box this time.
Tastyfish wrote: Feels a bit strange to mix up the new format that quickly? There is a bit of Bheta-Decima terrain we've not seen official previewed, something a bit crate-y - so at least one more sprue of terrain/objectives to go somewhere too.
That's not really "mixing up the new format" though...it's just copying what they did with WarCry, which they already did by having the Big Scenery bit sold separately.
It's entirely possible that I've overthought this, but it's already weird enough that a season set on a Mechanicus-held world still didn't deliver a bespoke Mechanicus KT sprue.
GaroRobe wrote: I couldn’t figure out what was going on with the shoulder, since mandrakes don’t use armor. It’s definitely creepy fire
Or it's bark.
I say this because there have been some extremely adamant rumors of Kurnothi getting more than just Belthanos. The whole 'bark armor' thing was played up in one of the Dawnbringer shorts.
GaroRobe wrote: I couldn’t figure out what was going on with the shoulder, since mandrakes don’t use armor. It’s definitely creepy fire
Or it's bark.
I say this because there have been some extremely adamant rumors of Kurnothi getting more than just Belthanos. The whole 'bark armor' thing was played up in one of the Dawnbringer shorts.
It's a decent guess and I've seen some good conversions that used the tree spirit heads to make plastic mandrakes, though what's missing from the picture is the quote "we'll be shining a light into the darkest of shadows" which makes it much more likely to be mandrakes (or shadow elves for AoS)
Manchu wrote: Salvation is a really good box, I hope they keep this kind of format for the rest of the season.
I hope so, that would mean I could skip the entire season to be honest (which my wallet would love)
Yup, going from extremely unique and characterful models with unique and characterful terrain to generic 40k box contents and no terrain made me really disintetested in the incoming 3 season boxes
Shakalooloo wrote: Other previous Kill Teams havce had more members in the box than they can have on the board, so it's nothing new with the Aspect Warriors.
Sort of. I think the difference here is that in previous boxes you could still build the excess models differently and have them in your list. So for tournament or campaign play you could swap them in or out.
My understanding with this is the variety in this team comes from different aspects, but the individuals models don't have builds that are any different (in Kill Team) - so there's literally no point to building those last three models, because they do the exact same thing in game as the other five.
So it's a bit weird. Hardly unforgivable, but yeah it does seem it'd make more sense to design the in-box team around those models then publish the combined aspects team in White Dwarf instead. Or as some have said, do a new sprue with three of each. *That* wouldn't be anything new as you've always been restricted with what you could build.
I think the real question is how well a five Scorpion team plays. Not in power level, just in fun. It feels like it basically locks you out of the most interesting element of this team, but I could be wrong be there.
I suspect you are mistaken and KT players will be able to make full use of 10 models in the box. 7 regular Scorpions and 2-3 Exarch models with different loadouts. Seems fine to me.
So yes and no. You can build three different loadouts of exarch from the box, but they all use the same torso so you can't technically build all three. In reality can you stick the Exarch weapons and heads on the other bodies? Probably, not built them yet. But it's not officially supported in the build guide.
GaroRobe wrote: I couldn’t figure out what was going on with the shoulder, since mandrakes don’t use armor. It’s definitely creepy fire
Or it's bark.
I say this because there have been some extremely adamant rumors of Kurnothi getting more than just Belthanos. The whole 'bark armor' thing was played up in one of the Dawnbringer shorts.
It's a decent guess and I've seen some good conversions that used the tree spirit heads to make plastic mandrakes, though what's missing from the picture is the quote "we'll be shining a light into the darkest of shadows" which makes it much more likely to be mandrakes (or shadow elves for AoS)
If you wanna get technical, the exact wording is:
We'll be shining the bright lights of Las Vegas into the darkest of shadows!
What do you think we'll be revealing at our next online preview?
It's system agnostic and it isn't related to that image specifically.
It could be:
-a reference to Mandrakes
-a reference to WarCry's next setting
-a reference to events in Ulgu for AoS -a reference to Kill Team's current setting, in general
Something I’m very curious about, regarding the Mandrake kill-team; Kill Teams usually have specialists, right? So they usually consists of units with several options on how to kit some of the individual models. And in some cases come with a unique upgrade sprue, to make the base kit into a Kill Team.
But Mandrakes traditionally don’t have any options (not even for the Night Fiend). So should we expect that to change with the new kit? And in the future also in the codex? Or will they get one of those added sprues? (But as far as I know they don’t usually do two of those in the same box, right? And we already know that’s what they’re doing with the Night Lords)
I know that Strikings Scorpions were basically in the same boat. And I’m assuming that’s why their KT can include some other Aspect Warriors, to make specialists. But they can’t really do that with mandrakes (I guess they -vould- do a Bldes For Hire-themed kill team. But sounds weird. Hired by whom? 😅)
New Valrak rumour this morning - the next box set is Genestealer Cults vs Votann.
Genestealer Cults will be a new upgrade sprue for the new Cadians to make them Brood Brothers (makes sense, the old sprue still kinda works but isn't great).
Votann is entirely new and is Pioneers (i.e. the grav bike guys) on foot.
Not super ideal for the GC upgrade sprue to be stuck in a box with some Cadians tbh, you can buy the current one on it's own to use with other units like Necromunda models.
The Phazer wrote: Not super ideal for the GC upgrade sprue to be stuck in a box with some Cadians tbh, you can buy the current one on it's own to use with other units like Necromunda models.
Now imagine how Guard players will feel if the GSC frame is literally just returning the missing options to the Cadian box.
And when recalling the Cadian upgrade frame that lasted barely two years was never sold separately.
How likely is it that the Votann would receive another Kill Team set (especially so soon after their first one) exactly?
I can’t help but think that something is off about this.
Mr_Rose wrote: How likely is it that the Votann would receive another Kill Team set (especially so soon after their first one) exactly?
I can’t help but think that something is off about this.
I mean, Mandrakes would be the same time between Drukhari KTs, assuming that the Votann v GSC is after the purported "Nightmare" box..
lie.
There goes any thoughts of me using them in 30k... Guess I'll hunt out a few of the old kits if I really need too.
