These were some of the first units I homebrewed almost a year ago, but since then my homebrew-fu has grown stronger (largely thanks to many insightful commenters on this site, above all Ovion), so I've revised and recosted them for 7th Edition. Behold! (And tell me what's still wrong with them so I can fix it).

[The final (?) version of these three units -- and 27 more -- are now in my fandex/expandex.]

[EDIT: I've radically revised the Novices and significantly updated the other units, so the original version below is of historical interest only: click here for the current version of the Thrones (bikers), here for Vigils (infiltrators), and here for the latest revision of the Novices]

First, one new item of wargear:

Sororitas Bike

Design notes:


And the units themselves:

Throne Squad: 75 points (Fast Attack)

Design notes:



Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)

Design Notes:


Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):

Design Notes:

I've never felt that Sororitas should be on bikes. They get Dominions and Seraphim so they're not lacking in Fast Attack squads. Also, why are all Biker Sisters better than White Scars at the one thing they excel at.

Vigils are way overpriced. I'd price them out at 15 points per model. This is a case of them being less than the sum of their parts. They're only slightly better than Marine Scouts with Camo Cloaks.

Fluff wise Novice Sisters shouldn't see action outside of extraordinary circumstances. In my Codex they're part of the Inquisitorial Guard, each hand picked by their Inquisitor. Dark Heresy Fluff supports this.

My own Novice Sisters are priced out at 8 points and they don't get Acts of Faith or have any special rules except Shield of Faith. I'm not too sure about this one, you might want to price them at 9 points as is.

You may well be right about Vigils being overpriced -- Ovion's piece-by-piece costing method came out 12 points higher than the consensus in the original thread. Given their WS/BS 4, Ld 9, power armor, and access to 4 special weapons per squad, I'd been thinking of them more as sneaky Sternguard than souped-up Scouts: Imagine four meltaguns or four flamers with precision shots and an AOF letting them choose tank hunters, monster hunters, or poisoned (vs. characters), infiltrating right into your ranks.
But when I compare to Marine Scouts with camo cloaks @ 13 ppm, using Ovion again but from a different starting point, I get 20 ppm for Vigils, not 25:



As for Novices, how routinely they see action is unclear to me, so I figured they should be included. Compared to Inquisitorial Acolytes, yours may be overcosted....

As for Bikes: Bikes are cool. Also their toughness (which I long resisted) and speed mean they fill a very different tactical role from Dominions or Seraphim. Marines have bikes, scouts, and jump troops, so why shouldn't Sisters too?

In general, we have very different visions of the Sisters. Folks should check out J3f's fandex here.

I'd give the bikes storm bolters. They're inferior to combi-bolters but still just that bit more substantial than regular bolters.

I like how you worked in "spec ops" style with a literal vow of silence for the Vigils. It'd be nice if they could get sniper rifles or Stalker-pattern bolters, though. It would be good to finally have a unit capable of high-impact sniping that isn't the Vindicare Assassin. Giving them special bolters (Stalkers) would fit with your "sneaky Sternguard" concept, as what really makes Sternguard great is their Special Issue Ammunition and combi-weapons.

Would Preferred Enemy (Characters) work better for the Act of Faith? They're going to be wounding the majority of them on a 4+ anyway, especially when they're carrying special weapons.

I'm not really sure what the point in the Little Sisters is. I have to add that I wasn't expecting Sororitas Neophytes from "Child Soldiers"!

94 points, round up to 95 for sanity's sake.

Don't read Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'd give the bikes storm bolters....

Ha! That was my original idea, actually.

I like how you worked in "spec ops" style with a literal vow of silence for the Vigils. It'd be nice if they could get sniper rifles or Stalker-pattern bolters, though...

I tried that, but it got complicated -- in the end I decided to give them all Precision Shots as a reflection of their training, and then let them take Dominion levels of special weapons.

Would Preferred Enemy (Characters) work better for the Act of Faith?...

Probably. That's something for the revisions!

I'm not really sure what the point in the Little Sisters is....

I wrote them from my headcanon first rather than with a specific tactical role in mind, frankly. (I was originally inspired by Melissia's old fandex). As written, they provide decent second-line troops, e.g. for camping on objectives, with a burst of Fearless and Sacrificial Lambs to stiffen them at a critical, desperate moment. That said, without heavy weapons they can't provide any fire support from the backfield. Their stats are also still better than Imperial Guard regulars, though, so you could throw them in the front line as your main force to represent a desperation move by the Sisterhood.

Don't read Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Too late!

 SisterSydney wrote:
You may well be right about Vigils being overpriced -- Ovion's piece-by-piece costing method came out 12 points higher than the consensus in the original thread. Given their WS/BS 4, Ld 9, power armor, and access to 4 special weapons per squad, I'd been thinking of them more as sneaky Sternguard than souped-up Scouts: Imagine four meltaguns or four flamers with precision shots and an AOF letting them choose tank hunters, monster hunters, or poisoned (vs. characters), infiltrating right into your ranks.
But when I compare to Marine Scouts with camo cloaks @ 13 ppm, using Ovion again but from a different starting point, I get 20 ppm for Vigils, not 25:

Spoiler:

Replace Astartes package (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads) with Sororitas package (Shield of Faith, Act of Faith): +/-0? (seems unfair to me, but it's the only way the pricing in the codexes makes sense....)

Add
+1 to WS, BS, & Ld: +30
Upgrade Scout Armor to Power Armor: +5 pts
Add Precision Shots: +10
Add Night Vision: +5
Subtotal: +50

Subtract
-1 to S & T: -20
- Move Thru Cover: -10
Subtotal: -30

Net: +20, divide by 3 for high-quality troops, = +6.7, round up to 7.
13 ppm + 7 = 20 ppm

As for Novices, how routinely they see action is unclear to me, so I figured they should be included. Compared to Inquisitorial Acolytes, yours may be overcosted....

As for Bikes: Bikes are cool. Also their toughness (which I long resisted) and speed mean they fill a very different tactical role from Dominions or Seraphim. Marines have bikes, scouts, and jump troops, so why shouldn't Sisters too?

In general, we have very different visions of the Sisters. Folks should check out J3f's fandex here.

Prospective Sisters of Battle are raised in Schola Progeniums. As shown in Daemonifuge graduates are assigned to an order in a ceremony held on Holy Terra. The only examples of Noviciate Sisters seeing battle comes from Dark Heresy where an Inquisitor can apply for a mentorship to a prospective Sister of Battle making her one of their acolytes. Unless a Schola Progenium was attacked directly there is very little chance of seeing Novice Sisters on the battlefield outside of the Inquisition. Sisters of Battle don't function like Space Marines, they have very little connection to the Militant Order they're destined to end up in until they officially become Battle Sisters.

My own Novices get Boltguns and Bolt Pistols along with BS 4 so the 8 points is justified compared to a regular acolyte. They're the top of their class, hand picked by the Inquisitor.

As Daemonifuge is dumb, I think it can be safely disregarded.

 SisterSydney wrote:

I tried that, but it got complicated -- in the end I decided to give them all Precision Shots as a reflection of their training, and then let them take Dominion levels of special weapons.

Complicated? Surely it's not that difficult to work out how much those weapons should cost. I'd do it, but my PC (with all my absolutely legitimate .pdf files) is out of commission right now.

I don't like the mechanics of "sacrificial lambs", too much bookkeeping involved (this unit has PE on that unit, and that unit has on this and this units, and these two on that one....quickly getting out of hand.)

And for vigils, the 20 PPM is far more logical than the 25. and even that is on the high side.
And I second the replacement act of faith to be PE:characters, works far better for "assassin types" than the current "pick-a-trick" style.

Good point about "Sacrificial Lambs": Maybe it should be the FIRST enemy to kill a Novice becomes Preferred Enemy for ALL Sisters?

I'll definitely round down the point cost on Vigils. I do like the multiple-choice nature of their Act of Faith (especially given their high cost...): It basically lets them be "high priority target" killers rather than straight assassins, able to kill tanks, monsters, OR characters, but only one. The flexibility's a bit like Sternguard Special Ammo, actually.

Where Novices are from age 12-18 is actually unclear in fluff. There's one line in the current Codex that has a Novice in a cathedral under assault by Orks, though it's unclear if she's there as the Canoness's page, as part of a squad, or even being educated there. Fluff seems to suggest that the Adepta Sororitas as a whole (non-militant orders including) selects Novices from the Schola Progenium at age 12 and then puts them in a separate, special training program, culminating in the ceremony on Terra and selection by a specific Order at age 18.
I didn't know about the Dark Heresy bit, that's interesting -- but what it suggests to me is that if the Sororitas are willing to let a lone Novice go off with an Inquisitor as part of her training, then they'd certainly be willing to put them into combat as squads under close supervision by their own Sisters Superior.

I like the Bikes conceptually, but I'm skeptical about the 45pt price tag for characters. If I may digress for a moment to estimate the cost of the special rules a Ravenwing Bike is +6ppm over a Space Marine Bike and gains Hit and Run, Scouts, Stubborn, and a Teleport Homer in trade for Chapter Tactics; on top of that we have to consider that the T3-T4 bump is significantly less valuable than the T4-T5 bump and that a Canoness doesn't have access to the statline and the wargear any Space Marine character does a 30pt bike seems more reasonable than a 45pt one to me. The pricing on the unit seems a little more reasonable but you're still putting out a Bike unit more expensive than Space Marine Bikes with -1S, T, WS, and I.

Costing is definitely tricky, and I was startled how high my brute-force application of Ovion's methods drove the cost of the character upgrade in particular. I wasn't aware of the Ravenwing bike -- don't have that 'dex, but I'll see if I can get access to it.

I wonder if one way to make the Sororitas Bike costing saner -- and make clear the Sisters aren't better riders than Marines, they just have more agile bikes -- would be to replace Sklled Rider with a +1 to jink without any special ability to cross Dangerous Terrain.

It also strikes me as odd that, technically, an independent character on a bike with Scout can join a unit of foot troops and give them Scout as well. Ruling out that abuse -- e.g. specifying "a unit entirely mounted on Sororitas Bikes has the Scout special rule" -- would also be worth a modest discount to the cost for characters. (Not for the squad).

Thoughts?

(P.S. Found a Dork Angles codex and looked at Ravenwing, but Dark Knights have so much other stuff going on, e.g. death plasma talons of death, that it's hard to use them as a basis of comparison for costing).

Now, I didn't read entire thread (sorry), but I wanted to point out a few things I've noticed while reading OP (all three may just be me not knowing basic rules or Sisters rules, so feel free to point out where I'm wrong):

1) Not really a problem, but you may wish to tweak some fluffy bits on that matter:
Bike allows for Hit & run by the virtue of being fast and nimble, yet AFAIK H&R is conferred to a unit. You may wish to come up with some reasoning why it happens (unless I'm missing something).

2) Camo cloaks provide Stealth USR while IIRC similar gear of SM and IG/AM provide +1 cover bonus that stacks with Stealth. Is this intended?

3) What exactly does poisoned rule do on Vigil's Act? Per wording it seems to me that the rule comes to play when the wound is inflicted, but at this point poisoned is irrelevant if I understand it correctly.

 Barrogh wrote:

1)....Bike allows for Hit & run by the virtue of being fast and nimble, yet AFAIK H&R is conferred to a unit. You may wish to come up with some reasoning why it happens (unless I'm missing something).

Or make H&R apply on to "a unit entirely composed of Sororitas Bikes," as with Scout, to prevent abuse.

2) Camo cloaks provide Stealth USR while IIRC similar gear of SM and IG/AM provide +1 cover bonus that stacks with Stealth. Is this intended?

Rather than trying to add a new item of wargear to the Sisters, I was thinking I'd just give them the stealth SR and leave the camo cloak as fluff.

3) What exactly does poisoned rule do on Vigil's Act? Per wording it seems to me that the rule comes to play when the wound is inflicted, but at this point poisoned is irrelevant if I understand it correctly.

Whoops! Should be "hits," not "wounds" -- thanks for the catch, I just fixed the original post.

After much pondering, I've revised the Sororitas Bike to (1) eliminate shennigan possibilities, (2) take away Skilled Rider, which seemed something that should be reserved for White Scars & Dark Angels, and (3) reduce point costs.

Sororitas Bike
With lighter weapons and much lighter riders than their Marine counterparts, Sororitas bikes can maneuver nimbly through rough terrain, scouting far ahead of the main force to stage lightning strikes against vulnerable targets.
- A unit all of whose models are mounted on Sororitas Bikes gains Hit & Run, Scout, and +1 to Jink saves.
- A Sororitas bike is armed with a storm bolter (not twin-linked boltguns as on an Astartes bike).
- A Sororitas Bike lacks the Relentless special rule, but otherwise follows all the normal rules for Bikes.

A Canoness or Palatine may take a Sororitas Bike for 30 points.
If a Canoness takes a Sororitas Bike, her Sororitas Command Squad may all take Sororitas Bikes as well for 55 points.
A Throne Squad (see first post) of three Sisters mounted on Sororitas Bikes costs 70 points; each additional Throne costs 23 points.

Design notes:

Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

 koooaei wrote:
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

Why aren't SM Scouts WS/BS2? Are Progenium-trained soldiers any less capable than feudal-world grunts who got their first firearm six months ago?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Are Progenium-trained soldiers any less capable than feudal-world grunts who got their first firearm six months ago?

I'm comparing with someone like Cadians or Catachans. Besides, feudal-world grunts usually have plenty of real fighting experience. The squads are not composed explictly of newcomers - some are grisly veterans, some are regular soldiers, and some are rookies. Thus, WS3 BS3 LD7 in general. While the proposed squad consists mostly of inexperienced soldiers led by a mentor.

SM scouts are not WS/BS 2 cause the squad includes individuals who had been scouts for decades and have implants. And once again, it's a simplification to represent the somewhat equally spread variety from bs2 to bs4.

Uh, Scouts are Scouts for a few months at the most - they're only deployed as Scouts while the Black Carapace matures, when they're not going under the knife every few months.

A Scout represents a proto-Marine at the very end of his training.

That said, a Guardsman may only have had a month of Basic and Preparatory. WS/BS2 is reserved for civilians who have had a gun shoved in their hands and Cadian eight-year-olds.

Do i miss something about schola progenium? What military training does it provide?

 koooaei wrote:
Do i miss something about schola progenium? What military training does it provide?

Arccording to Lexicanum and WH40k Wikia, they train Commissars, Tempestus Scions, officers for Imperial Navy and Adeptus Arbites, as well as the future generations of SoB

I don't know, it just seems odd to me that 12-year old children are as skilled, strong and tough as a grown up trained soldier.

Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!

Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.

So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.

P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!

Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.

So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.

P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.

As an alternative, what about keeping the Novices at Ld 8 and instead reduce their Strength to 2 (though keeping Toughness 3)? This might help address people's internal logic that's telling them that a group of adolescents should not be as physically strong as a trained adult soldier no matter how well trained they are.

Incidentally, I think that the current "Sacrificial lamb" special rule might get a tad hard to keep track off; especially when the body count starts rising and different Sisters get "Preferred enemy" at different combinations of enemy units. Alternatively, what about simplifying it as such:

Whenever a Novice is killed, the closest adult Adepta Sororitas unit in range of an enemy unit will fire snap shots at them in retaliation.

mr. peasant wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Absolutely -- but these aren't 12-year-olds. Novice training runs from 12 to 18, and I'm thinking of the Novice Squad as formed from girls in the later stages of that training. Obviously I should make that clearer in their fluff, so thanks for making me realize that!

Now, even at age 17, the majority of Schola Progenium kids should indeed be WS:2 BS:2 -- but then the majority of Progies (I just made that up, you can thank me later) aren't going to be Sisters, Stormtroopers, or Commissars: They're going to desk jobs in the Administratum or maybe junior NCO positions in the Imperial Guard and Navy. From what little we know about Sisters' training, they're cherry-picked from the best of the Schola at age 12 and given even more intensive combat training henceforth.

So, yeah, these Novices are teenage girls.... but so are Buffy the Vampire Slayer and River fething Tam.

P.S.: I kinda wrote a few stories about Novice training, starting here.

As an alternative, what about keeping the Novices at Ld 8 and instead reduce their Strength to 2 (though keeping Toughness 3)? This might help address people's internal logic that's telling them that a group of adolescents should not be as physically strong as a trained adult soldier no matter how well trained they are.

Incidentally, I think that the current "Sacrificial lamb" special rule might get a tad hard to keep track off; especially when the body count starts rising and different Sisters get "Preferred enemy" at different combinations of enemy units. Alternatively, what about simplifying it as such:

Whenever a Novice is killed, the closest adult Adepta Sororitas unit in range of an enemy unit will fire snap shots at them in retaliation.

Skeptical about S2, Guard Conscripts (which include Cadian Whiteshields, who are probably younger than any Sororitas novice you'd find on a battlefield) are still S/T3. I would put them at Ld7 with a Ld8 Superior, though.

Do, of course, remember that stats are a generalised representation of all the fluff. Just because Cadian Whiteshields may comprise of children doesn't mean Conscripts - as a whole - are generally comprised as such as well. The unit description in the codex simply describes them as a mass of poorly trained, expendable bodies raised in times of desperation. They make no comment whatsoever that they're children or that they're physically any different from your rank-and-file Guardsman.

Yes, Strength 2 is too low. (See: -4 Str meme). With S, T, WS, and BS all at three, the Novices are equal to rank-and-file Guardsmen -- which is appropriate given they're almost of military age (16-17), have many more years of training in a much better-resourced program, and come from a highly selected population to begin with. Ld:7 seems inadequate to reflect the fact that they're essentially fanatical child soldiers who've separated from their parents (if their parents aren't already dead) and isolated in an environment where the constant indoctrination makes the Hitler Jugend look half-hearted.

Simplifying "Sacrificial Lambs" is a good idea -- just how to implement that one is tricky. Not sure about the snap shots idea, but it's interesting. Giving the entire Sisters army "preferred enemy" on someone who kills Novices is easier to keep track of but seems overpowered, while giving everyone Hatred is underpowered given that (1) Sisters hate melee and (2) Priests/Choristers give you easy Hatred anyway. I welcome ideas!

S2 T2 is fine - says my gretchin aquaintant

Gretchin are seriously weaker than a 17-year-old high school athlete, let alone one whose team sport is killing heretics.

 koooaei wrote:
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

Because the Schola also trains Commissars and the Storm Trooper Regiment. This is a private military-religious academy that produces some of the hardest, all-human fighters the Imperium fields. A Schola Graduate *is* a better soldier than a rank-and-file Guardsman.

Not to mention the Schola involves live fire exercises, so its not like the battlefield is going to be the Novices' first experience of being shot at.

 Psienesis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

Because the Schola also trains Commissars and the Storm Trooper Regiment. This is a private military-religious academy that produces some of the hardest, all-human fighters the Imperium fields. A Schola Graduate *is* a better soldier than a rank-and-file Guardsman.

This. The Schola Progenium isn't just a school. It's a military school run by religious fanatics. They're doing target practice and drills after morning prayers. Conscripts, on the other hand, are mostly a bunch of factory workers that have had a lasgun shoved in their hand and been shown which end to point at the enemy when they pull the trigger. Game stats are broad categories. BS 5 is a really good marksman. BS 4 is a veteran gunner. BS 3 is a decent shot, and BS 2 is someone with almost no firearm experience, or who simply doesn't care to aim (Orks).

Giving them the strength of a Gretchen doesn't make sense either. Gretchen are about three feet tall, max, and really spindly. A literal child soldier of eight or nine years old would have that strength (BTW, the thread title's a little misleading, I was thinking of actual child soldier units raised by the Ecclesiarchy, like the Child Crusades from the Dark Ages, which could make for a very uncomfortable game of 40k) but a young woman who's already gone through her full growth spurt (which women hit earlier than men), not to mention living a very active lifestyle that would keep her in near peak physical condition, should be S 3. One book I read also suggested that Sororita initiates tend to be bigger, stronger, and more aggressive female Schola members. Of course, that was a Cain novel, so you can take it with a bit of salt. Again, game stats use broad categories: 6+= monster, 5= really strong superhuman, 4 "average" superhuman, 3= average human, 2= someone really weak, old, crippled, etc, 1= in a coma.

So keep the Guardsman like stats. Overall I like the idea of being able to field novices. Sisters always seem to be getting attacked at their abbeys and training grounds, where there'd be plenty of novices around (ex: the infamous Massacre at Sanctuary 101). It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't fight back. However, personally I'd lower the points cost slightly and give them shotguns instead of bolters. As novices, they wouldn't be any worthier of the holy (and really complicated) bolter than the holy (and really complicated) power armour. I'd also make a rule that if the Mistress dies, the entire unit has to take a morale check at the end of the turn, regardless of their unit size or whether they lost or won combat. She's the one they look to for both inspiration and combat expertise. If she dies, it should be fairly devastating. Lastly, I'd make Sacrificial Lambs rule have the nearest SoB unit in range get a free snap fire instead of preferred enemy, as someone previously suggested. It's just less complicated. I don't have a problem with them getting an Act of Faith. It helps keep them Sisters, instead of Guardsmen in a Sisters army. Maybe if the Mistress dies, they lose their Act of Faith thought?

Like J3F, I always felt jump packs were more in character for Sisters than bikes. Much more angelic religious imagery. That's a personal preference though.

For the Vigils, you may not like the idea of special bolter rounds, but what about letting squad members take plain ol' sniper rifles as upgrades? It's simple, seems to fit thematically, and could be a fun addition to the army since no other squad has access to them.

Lots of good suggestions here.

Making the Mistress the linchpin of the Novices' morale and Act of Faith: Yes, absolutely. Adds a lot of character -- and adding this weakness would make offset making Sacrificial Lambs more powerful.

Simplifying Sacrificial Lambs to a free out-of-sequence snap shot: Interesting. Would require some careful rule writing, rather than just saying "these guys get this special rule now," but requires no keeping track of after it happens.

Shotguns instead of boltguns for the Novices: Interesting. Conflicts with my headcanon, though. And the bolter, while special, is less rare and expensive than full Power Armour -- even I.G. Commissars go around with bolt pistols sometimes, and everyone knows they're, like, totally the dumbest graduates of the Schola. Even dumber than Arbites.

Sniper rifles for Vigils: I went back and forth on this a lot. Thematically, I wanted to keep the Vigils using Holy Trinity weapons. Tactically, the dealbreaker for me is that Sniper Rifles are Heavy weapons: You have to stay still to fire them, which is not the Sororitas style of war and a very bad idea when you're a small band of infiltrators with lousy melee abilities... Basically Vigils are not snipers but infiltrating Dominions with an Act of Faith to kill high-value-targets, be they monsters, vehicles, or characters.

Why careful?

"The first time each turn a unit of Novices suffers a casualty, a Sororitas unit within 6" may immediately snap-fire at the unit that inflicted the casualty."

Yeah, but does it count as your chance to Overwatch, what if the target is locked in combat, etc? I try to be more careful about GW.

I am sorely tempted to make Novices pass a morale test when they lose their Mistress and, if they fail, lose Shield of Faith and Act of Faith ("she's dead! God has forsaken us!"), but if they pass, they gain Hatred and Rage ("she's dead! Vengeance is mine, saith The Lord!").

Also I've started a new thread with four homebrewed Sisters formations, all using at least one homebrewed unit. Comments welcome!

 SisterSydney wrote:

Sniper rifles for Vigils: I went back and forth on this a lot. Thematically, I wanted to keep the Vigils using Holy Trinity weapons. Tactically, the dealbreaker for me is that Sniper Rifles are Heavy weapons: You have to stay still to fire them, which is not the Sororitas style of war and a very bad idea when you're a small band of infiltrators with lousy melee abilities... Basically Vigils are not snipers but infiltrating Dominions with an Act of Faith to kill high-value-targets, be they monsters, vehicles, or characters.

As I pass this thread in my regular orbit, I call "Stalker Bolters" from above. I'm only suggesting it again because it'd be really cool.

Stalkers are a special character item though, despite they shouldn't be. For a regular squad, I'd call them like a Bolter but with the Sniper rule.

I'm still not completely convinced by the Novice Squad idea; least of all fluff-wise. Firstly, I think you need to fully commit to whether they're a group of young, naive children who're still halfway through their training or if they're older, soon-to-be-Sisters sitting for their final assessment. If it's the latter (based on your comments that they're a bunch of 17-year old girls, etc), then the special rules like "sacrificial lambs" and "children's crusade" don't really fit any longer since they aren't really children anymore (i.e. Sisters shouldn't feel any more protective towards them than towards their other Sisters).

Also, in terms of the army roster, I don't really understand the need for them or the role that they fill. From what I can see, they pretty much do what Battle Sisters do except are worse at doing it in every single way. Instead, their main function gameplay-wise is to get themselves killed in order to trigger their special rule which really doesn't feel like the Sororitas and runs contradictory to the fluff you've lain out. In contrast, novice Space Marines serve as forward scouts - giving them unique wargear and function from their fully trained seniors.

Now, if the Novice Squad was being homebrewed for a specific scenario/campaign setting, then it's very flavourful. But as a general unit that the Sororitas brings on a mission? It feels less useful.

An alternative perhaps, if you're keen on introducing novices, is to have them accompany their seniors into battle much in the way squires used to do in medieval times - supporting their mentors in the battlefield, and thereby learning through observation and on-the-job training. Perhaps allow 1-3 Novices join certain squads; keeping your stats and equipping them with Bolt pistols. And as a special rule, each Novice may allow another model in the squad to reroll a failed "To Shoot" instead of shooting her own weapon (essentially giving your special weapon(s) twin-linked). Gameplay-wise, it provides an interesting scenario where players may want to strategise which models they are more willing to lose - the rank-and-file Bolter Babe who can shoot better and who actually contribute to the unit's overall firepower, or the Novice who occassionally help the special weapons shoot a little more accurately.

Mr. Peasant, you've really got me thinking about the Novices now. Maybe the problem with Sacrificial Lambs isn't the complexity, it's having an incentive to get the Novices killed in the first place -- I may have gotten too grimdark.

Maybe, instead -- playing off Fallinq's idea that the Mistress of Novices is the squad's linchpin -- the unique thing about Novices should be that they're untested and therefore unpredictable under stress: on a bad Ld check they fall apart, on a good one they get bonuses and potentially outperform regular Sisters on the "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" principle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: The age of Novices and what counts as a "child soldier" is tricky. The girls in my fanfic series (sig'd below) deploy to a war zone for the first time at 15, though they never see battle "onscreen." The UN and human rights groups are pretty adamant anyone under 18 is a "child" and shouldn't be in the military -- which technically means the US has child soldiers as we allow enlistment at 17 (though no one's deployed until 18; training takes too long). As for full Sisters in their early 20s (and unlikely to live to 30) feeling protective of Novices in their teens -- well, look at any family and see how protective older siblings can be of "babies" just a year or two younger. In combat, especially, you grow up fast....in Vietnam a hardened veteran of 19 with a whole year in country could easily take a naive new replacement of 18 under his wing.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Stalkers are a special character item though, despite they shouldn't be. For a regular squad, I'd call them like a Bolter but with the Sniper rule.

That's the thing! They're supposed to be a lot more common than they are, but Telion has the only one. I'm not really sure how many points they should be, but they should definitely be more available. Best of all, they fulfill a ranged role while still being part of the Holy Trinity.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Mr. Peasant, you've really got me thinking about the Novices now. Maybe the problem with Sacrificial Lambs isn't the complexity, it's having an incentive to get the Novices killed in the first place -- I may have gotten too grimdark.

Maybe, instead -- playing off Fallinq's idea that the Mistress of Novices is the squad's linchpin -- the unique thing about Novices should be that they're untested and therefore unpredictable under stress: on a bad Ld check they fall apart, on a good one they get bonuses and potentially outperform regular Sisters on the "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" principle.

Here's a thought... consider that the Sororitas' future leaders, commanders, and even saints are amongst this group. Perhaps their Mistress dying would be a sort of "moment of truth" for them where one of them might decide to "step up" to hold everyone together? So perhaps instead of "Sacrificial lamb", give them this special rule:

Untapped potential:
In the event of the Mistress dying, roll a D6. On a 1, nothing happens. On a 2+, one Novice rises to the occassion and takes charge of her unit. She becomes an Infantry (Character) and gains +1 BS and +D3 Ld. She does not however gain any of the Mistress' wargear.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: The age of Novices and what counts as a "child soldier" is tricky. The girls in my fanfic series (sig'd below) deploy to a war zone for the first time at 15, though they never see battle "onscreen." The UN and human rights groups are pretty adamant anyone under 18 is a "child" and shouldn't be in the military -- which technically means the US has child soldiers as we allow enlistment at 17 (though no one's deployed until 18; training takes too long). As for full Sisters in their early 20s (and unlikely to live to 30) feeling protective of Novices in their teens -- well, look at any family and see how protective older siblings can be of "babies" just a year or two younger. In combat, especially, you grow up fast....in Vietnam a hardened veteran of 19 with a whole year in country could easily take a naive new replacement of 18 under his wing.

I got the impression that the 40K universe tends to skew younger, with Cadians and Catachans being in the army pretty much from age 12 and up. However, as long as you have a rationale for it, that works.

 SisterSydney wrote:

Maybe, instead -- playing off Fallinq's idea that the Mistress of Novices is the squad's linchpin -- the unique thing about Novices should be that they're untested and therefore unpredictable under stress: on a bad Ld check they fall apart, on a good one they get bonuses and potentially outperform regular Sisters on the "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" principle.

What about something like the Uncertain Worth from the new LatD codex? Like, the first time the Novices take an Ld test, roll a D6:
- 1: they have Ld6
- 2: they have Ld7
- 3: they have Ld8
- 4: they have Ld9
- 5: roll D3+1 on this table again, and they also have Stubborn
- 6: roll D3+1 on this table again, and they also have Fearless

I guess, i've missed stuff about scola progenium. Guess bs3 ws3 is reasonable than. Not sure bout s3 though.

If 12 year old Whiteshields have S3, then so can Sororitas Novices.

Conscripts ain't children mostly. Just civilians. And if they were, they should have been s2. And your squad is constructed explictly of teenage girls and one mentor.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, it just seems strange that a female teenager is exactly as strong as a Schwarzenegger catachan jungle fighter.

Novices are at least physically trained, while Conscripts are unlikely to even visit the gym.

Adepta Sororita novice?



But yep, i guess ith's the inevitable evil of 1-10 stat range system.

No, THIS is an Adepta Sororitas Novice:



Actually, it's the captain of the female boxing team at West Point, the US Military Academy, so she's about three years too old and 38,000 years too early, but you get the point. Astartes she ain't. Kick my ass handily? Sure. WS:3 S:3 T:3? Yes.


I'm definitely liking the ideas about making the Novice Squad potentially erupt into awesomeness under pressure. It's important to keep rules playable, so giving every single squad the potential to develop unique stats is probably too complex to keep track of, but some kind of three-mode switch should be doable: pass your first Leadership test, get Rage & Hatred (for example); fail it, lose Act and Shield of Faith. And definitely the death of the Mistress of Novices should trigger a Morale test right then and there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Oh yeah, Stalker Bolters. The fluff says Telion's is highly customized, even though it's the only "Stalker Pattern Bolter" I've ever heard about. I hesitate to give an entire Sisters unit access to a Space Marine special snowflake's custom kit. I could just add the "Sniper" special rule, but I wonder then whether to give it to the whole unit, to their Act of Faith, or to a special weapon. Hrmm.

 SisterSydney wrote:

I'm definitely liking the ideas about making the Novice Squad potentially erupt into awesomeness under pressure. It's important to keep rules playable, so giving every single squad the potential to develop unique stats is probably too complex to keep track of, but some kind of three-mode switch should be doable: pass your first Leadership test, get Rage & Hatred (for example); fail it, lose Act and Shield of Faith. And definitely the death of the Mistress of Novices should trigger a Morale test right then and there.

This is probably the best way to do it. Simple, wrapped up in a single morale check, and has all the flavor of everything we've been trying to do. It wouldn't have to be Rage and Hatred, it could be Rage and Stubborn or whatever, but this is how the basic mechanic should work, I think.

Hm, I'd say a watered down version of the three main Acts of Faith - Light of the Emperor, Holy Fullisade and Divine Guidance.

1-2: The unit may reroll failed shooting attacks of a 1 for the remainder of the game.
3-4: For the remainder of the gamy, any unit the target shoots at must reroll all successful Cover saves.
5-6: For the remainder of the game, the unit's weapons become AP1 against non-vehicle models on a to-wound roll of a 6.

That's Preferred Enemy but only when shooting, Ignores Cover half the time and Rending but without auto-wounding on a 6 or any effect on vehicles.

Stalker Bolters also appeared in the AU game Space Marine as the tier 1 sniper weapon, essentially being a scoped bolter with no full auto setting and an eighteen round magazine that does extra damage on headshots.

 koooaei wrote:
Conscripts ain't children mostly. Just civilians. And if they were, they should have been s2. And your squad is constructed explictly of teenage girls and one mentor.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, it just seems strange that a female teenager is exactly as strong as a Schwarzenegger catachan jungle fighter.

So are just about every other Human troop. The S3 is a really, really broad range of stats. It's basically "the span of just about every human being, save the natural extremes on either end", which are S2 or S4, respectively. You get into super-human Strength at S5.

Well, to be precise it is impossible with the current stat system.
It is really strange that Conscripts, who are made up of the elderly, teenagers have the same Strength as a Catachan, who has lived his whole life on the most horrible hell-hole in the universe, and with muscles that make even Orks look puny.
If they use the same stat system as Warmahorde, then it can make a difference:
For example, In Warmahorde, we have Cygnar Long Gunners, who are not trained in close combat, and are Strength 7 IIRC.
On the other hand, a Khador Winter Guard, who is borned and has survived in harsh condition, and is trained for CQC, is Strength 8.

Yes, a scale of 1-10 for everyone from cripples to gods is a tad compressed. It's something that would take a total reboot of the rules to open up....

Besides the "Crisis of Faith" special rule, as I'm starting to call the Novices' having either bonuses or penalties based on the outcome of their first Leadership test, I'm tempted to make them give some kind of boost to nearby Sisters, as their elders strive to protect them and not let them down -- a less grimdark version of "sacrificial lambs." Maybe a +1 to Ld or a reroll of failed AOF? I'd love thoughts.

How about the Novices have an Act of Faith that lets them 'refresh' the Acts of Faith of all units within range?

So kind of like an area-effect Simulacrum Imperialis, or Jacobus's special rule? Interesting. Making it an Act of Faith would put Novices very squarely in a "cheerleader"/mascot/support unit role in an interesting way.

It's not so much that it's the novices doing anything in particular, it just slots what I'm imagining neatly into the existing, balanced (however well or poorly) system.

What it actually represents is the Sisters taking heart once more after they might otherwise have spent themselves.

It also encourages you to protect your Novice squad, at least until everyone else has used up their Acts.

Novices being an additional Simulacrum are making them too essential to the army.

It's like making them Tau Pathfinders, everyone takes them to get Markerlights. the difference being that Markerlights are a well integrated system available to many Tau units.

Novices are the only unit with Simulacrum powers and having a cost effective squad that doubles your uses of Acts of Faith is very powerful.

Of course I hate the current system of 1 Act of Faith per unit per game. By my rules in my homebrew Codex Simulacrum Imperialis's allow a unit to reroll a failed Act of Faith.

If you want to give them something to show how much their Big Sisters love them, then give any Proper Sisters of Battle charging into a Combat with already containing a Novice Squad the Rage Special Rule. It's much less exploitable and should cover what you were going for.

I kept my Novices simple because they should be far from mandatory. They also get to tag along with Crusaders and Death Cultists so they're in good company.

I really like J3f's Rage idea. Or Hatred, which admittedly Sisters already have easy access to but applies in situations where Rage doesn't, e.g. a disordered charge.

Probably making the Novices an area-effect Simulacrum equivalent is too potent -- but I think making them a Laud Hailer equivalent (reroll AOF within 12" or something) would be cool without making them an auto-take.

And then there's the Novices potentially getting bonuses or penalties from their first Leadership test.

That's three flavorful things, none of them too complex to implement or overpowered.

I would actually turn it around, and make the Novices' Act of Faith an ability to copy the (already used up) Act of Faith of a nearby Sororitas unit. Like, the Novices watch as Retributor Sister Angela tears apart a heretic Land Raider with her heavy bolter and they are all like "That was awesome! Let's do the same!" With an added rule that they gain +1 Ld after successfully using an Act of Faith, because they are now filled with religious fervour.

Ha! That would be hilarious. I like that.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I would actually turn it around, and make the Novices' Act of Faith an ability to copy the (already used up) Act of Faith of a nearby Sororitas unit. Like, the Novices watch as Retributor Sister Angela tears apart a heretic Land Raider with her heavy bolter and they are all like "That was awesome! Let's do the same!" With an added rule that they gain +1 Ld after successfully using an Act of Faith, because they are now filled with

Spoiler:

self-importance

religious fervour.

That's a cute idea, and I like it...

... but I'm not 100% sure that it really fits the grim-and-dour Sisters vibe the studio presents. Though, if we want to go that route, arm the Mistress with a power-ruler.

I kind of like the Simulacrum stand-in idea, but maybe make it require an Ld test to trigger, rather than be automatic? Fluff-wise, the nearby Sisters look over and see their Novices standing firm in the face of the enemy, and have their own resolve bolstered. If the Novices are cowering, though, the Sisters are rather... displeased, and thus are not further emboldened.

 Psienesis wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I would actually turn it around, and make the Novices' Act of Faith an ability to copy the (already used up) Act of Faith of a nearby Sororitas unit. Like, the Novices watch as Retributor Sister Angela tears apart a heretic Land Raider with her heavy bolter and they are all like "That was awesome! Let's do the same!" With an added rule that they gain +1 Ld after successfully using an Act of Faith, because they are now filled with

Spoiler:

self-importance

religious fervour.

That's a cute idea, and I like it...

... but I'm not 100% sure that it really fits the grim-and-dour Sisters vibe the studio presents. Though, if we want to go that route, arm the Mistress with a power-ruler.

In my opinion, the idea itself is hard to implement without breaking the Edge-O-Meter, entering the Magical Kingdom, or going a little bit silly-billy. If I had the choice, I would go with the last, so that the Sororitas would have something against the Darkness Induced Apathy. Oh, and the Mistress should carry a neural whip, because grimdark and whatnot.

Oh, I think you could fluff the "me too!" Act of Faith so it's not necessarily silly. "Example of the Elders" or some such.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, I think you could fluff the "me too!" Act of Faith so it's not necessarily silly. "Example of the Elders" or some such.

I mean, the 'idea' of Sororitas Novices participating in actual combat .

Have you ever read/watched Gunslinger Girls? Adorable teenage females (anime females no less!) brainwashed, trained to kill, and thrown into lethal combat actually get so grimdark that it makes 40K look romantic.

GSG is a great show. Kinda surprised there wasn't a one-off character from the Assassinorum as an homage to it.


But, basically, yes, with proper indoctrination and training, a pack of 14 to 17 year olds could be an effective combat unit, especially because we're talking about kids who have already, from a very young age, indicated that they are both extremely pious and very receptive to the Imperium's indoctrination, and have been training, physically, mentally and spiritually, to do exactly this for most of their lives.

Turning them into little killing machines, filled with the fires of zealous faith, is simply a matter of taking the effort to do so at that point.

Actually, the GSG thing is why I tend to think of Novices as being 10-14 year olds - anyone older than that is probably suitable to serve as a fully invested Battle Sister.

I tend to do the same, probably mixing my 40K love with my Wheel of Time love, and seeing the Sisterhood and the White Tower in similar lights.

Personally, I'm thinking that the Novice stage should start for the Sisters much earlier than it does, and last longer. They don't need most of what the Schola teaches, and could otherwise gain what they do need through the Sisterhood.

IMO, a Sister should be a Novice from like 12 to 21, and then take the final vows on Holy Terra.

I have to say, though, that the idea of a Sororitas Bike Squad is really cool. I am thinking something more for Scouting/Outflanking rather than the beatsticks that Marine bikes tend to be.

Maybe something with Hit-and-Run and Infiltrate?

Also, there is this image from the 80s, which makes everything involving Nuns, guns, and motorbikes awesome:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I really like J3f's Rage idea. Or Hatred, which admittedly Sisters already have easy access to but applies in situations where Rage doesn't, e.g. a disordered charge.

Probably making the Novices an area-effect Simulacrum equivalent is too potent -- but I think making them a Laud Hailer equivalent (reroll AOF within 12" or something) would be cool without making them an auto-take.

And then there's the Novices potentially getting bonuses or penalties from their first Leadership test.

That's three flavorful things, none of them too complex to implement or overpowered.

Careful there, I'd pick 1 of those special rules and stick with it. If you give them too many special rules you'll have to raise their price and you'll end up with Novice Sisters that cost more than the Basic Battle Sister.

 J3f wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I really like J3f's Rage idea. Or Hatred, which admittedly Sisters already have easy access to but applies in situations where Rage doesn't, e.g. a disordered charge.

Probably making the Novices an area-effect Simulacrum equivalent is too potent -- but I think making them a Laud Hailer equivalent (reroll AOF within 12" or something) would be cool without making them an auto-take.

And then there's the Novices potentially getting bonuses or penalties from their first Leadership test.

That's three flavorful things, none of them too complex to implement or overpowered.

Careful there, I'd pick 1 of those special rules and stick with it. If you give them too many special rules you'll have to raise their price and you'll end up with Novice Sisters that cost more than the Basic Battle Sister.

Agreed. Plus it adds needless complexity, which bogs down an already complicated game. Keep the rules as simple as you can without completely sacrificing flavor and tabletop tactics.

Yes, I need to write something up for the new Novices and then start whittling down..... but at the moment I just spent three hours driving and have to wake up at 6:15 am to get helicoptered out to a Dutch warship, I kid you not.

 Psienesis wrote:
I have to say, though, that the idea of a Sororitas Bike Squad is really cool. I am thinking something more for Scouting/Outflanking rather than the beatsticks that Marine bikes tend to be.

Maybe something with Hit-and-Run and Infiltrate?

Also, there is this image from the 80s, which makes everything involving Nuns, guns, and motorbikes awesome:

Spoiler:

Yes, that cover's on my mind too...... and my Sororitas Bikers (way up in the original post) do have Scout and Hit & Run (but not Infiltrate), so great minds think alike....

So, we tried out the Novice Squad, because the idea caught the imagination of our SoB player. I was playing against them in both cases, first as a suit-Tau (with a FW CQC ubersuit), then as a Chosenwing CSM (with two Maulerfiends and one Ectofiend too). Both was in 1750 points, Maelstrom missions.

We used the originally proposed stats (WS3, BS3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, Sv4+, 8ppm), with slightly bulked out equipment (carapace, boltgun, ccw, frags&kraks), and the random Ld, Copycat Act of Faith and +1 Ld for successful Act of Faith special rules I proposed. The Mistress was optional and she came with a Neural Whip, the Novices could swap their boltguns for bolt pistols or S4 shotguns, and they could take up to two special weapons.

There were two 15 strong Novice squads, one with a Mistress (this squad also had shotguns instead of boltguns), the other without her. Both squads had dual flamers. The rest of the SoB army was two 10-strong melta/HF SoB squads in Rhinos, two 5-strong melta/HF SoB squads in MM Immolators, two HB Retributors, 10-strong Dominions with meltas in Rhino, and Seraphims with a Jump Pack Eviscerator Canoness.

I think the unit is pretty well balanced. They were, like, nothing overtly special, but they felt nice and flavorful. The Copycat Act of Faith gave them a big tactical flexibility that, in turn, counterbalanced their mediocre base stats. In the first battle, the Mistress Novices killed the CQC ubersuit by copying the Retributors' rending AoF then finishing the job in close combat. It was pretty awesome. In the other battle, the same squad caught a shooty Chosen squad in sweeping advance but this time, they rolled an Ld6+Stubborn for random Ld and got Psychic Shriek'd to death.

...Why a Neural Whip?

In the grim darkness of the far future, neural whips are the first resort of the progressive educator.

Atomaki, awesome that you playtested a version of this. The copycat Act of Faith is definitely in, I think. Randomized Leadership is a bit too complex to keep track of for most people, though, I suspect. I've got some ideas I'm going to write up soon.

Copycat Ld? Ld 7 normally, but can use the Ld of friendly Faithful units within 12"?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Randomized Leadership is a bit too complex to keep track of for most people, though, I suspect.

Well, there is a whole army out there with random Ld (and five-bazillion modifiers for it) for every unit. Personally, we had no problems with tracking random Ld on two units.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, I think you could fluff the "me too!" Act of Faith so it's not necessarily silly. "Example of the Elders" or some such.

Is it bad that I initially read that as "Example of the Eldar"?

Here's my rewrite of the Novices, without random Leadership but with copycat Acts of Faith and extra effects from the death of the Mistress:

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):

Rules:

Design Notes:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Why a Neural Whip?

Because that's the way the Imperium rolls. Every school is a Scottish Catholic School at its absolute worst.

I'd loose the preferred enemy special rule everywhere. Preferred enemy means years of training against certain foe. And you can't just get it emidiately. What you can get emidiately is rage, for example...

And about Little Sisters special rule. I think that giving regular sisters explictly benefical extra rules based around novices is not a good idea. Scouts don't give special rules to space marines, conscripts don't give special rules to guardsmen, etc. Yep, you can justify it with fluff and tell that it's a different case but in all fairness, you can justify anything with fluff.

All in all, a nice idea and ballanced playable unit with reasonable price. From my experience as an ork player, the sheer avaliability of cheap bodies - no matter how tough or killy - is an important factor. I have lots of games won thanks to a squad of grots or an artillery krew that rush forward and stand in the way of something like an imperial knight or an uber deathstar making it impossible for the enemy to move forward without wasting a turn on something that costs 20+ times less than they do.
But don't bloat it with lots of special rules.

Thanks. So that's one vote for "too complicated," which they may well be.

I thought about Rage and Hatred before settling (for now) on Preferred Enemy. The usage of PE is weirdly inconsistent: the rulebook says it comes from years of training, but then some Tyranids can get it from a good Instinctual Behavior roll, and Battle Sisters can get it by praying really hard. So it's basically just a way of giving troops something that's a smaller bonus than Rage or Hatred but which applies beyond the first round of close combat.

As for cheap bodies, well, the Novices are definitely 1/3 cheaper than adult Sisters, but if you really want expendable bodies for this army, try some Frateris Rabble.

Hummm...the new novices are very intresting.

Would require some looking into to figure out if they are really strong, or really weak though, the whole system where they buff eldars in the same combat, yet the eldars buff them in return with letting them copy acts of faith is very intresting, and makes them flexible at one hand, yet dependant at the other.

The way crisis of faith works too makes it confusing, on one hand you do not want to lose the mistress, on the other she can block AP4 shots that would be far more lethal to the novices.

Honestly I'm baffled by them, and that's not something that happens often.

The closest comparison I've got is scouts, who have higher S,T,I and LD-and very different rules. or fire warriors who got slightly inferior stats, but better guns, and about equal rules.

8 PPM is probably about right than.

The only thing that bothers me is the "crisis of faith" pass, it encourages to suicide the mistress while having an attached canoness in order to reap a very powerful squad (compared to what you paid for)
I'd lower the bonuses gained from it. fearless and PE are both very, very powerful abilities to gain that way, stubborn and hatred would be better to give a similar feel, but less power and less suicidal encouragement.

I like Hatred.

Useful points. Maybe Fearless & Hatred (i.e. Zealot) as a compromise? I do think it fits for them to manifest the suicidally reckless courage that Fearless embodies; it seems a better fit to fluff than Stubborn.

There is definitely the possibility of having an Ld10 Canoness (or Palatine) babysitting them while you suicide the Mistress, but that's an awful lot of points and effort tied up in buffing one otherwise mediocre squad.

They're definitely intended (in this version) to work far better alongside adult Sisters than without them, so I'm glad that's coming through.

I'd just like to point out that the elder Sisters benefit from them, not the Eldar sisters. The latter would be xenoheresy.

SISTER KORIANDER: We would never traffic with Xenos!
SISTER RAVEN: No matter how cute their red hair was!
SISTER KORIANDER (blushing): I -- didn't think you noticed.

Ahem.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Would require some looking into to figure out if they are really strong, or really weak though....

They're meant to be an unpredictable unit. In the right circumstances, where they pull off the right AOF at the right time, buff other Sisters in a crucial melee, then lose their Mistress and go berserk on the enemy, they can punch weigh above their weight. With a little less tactical adroitness and luck, they're overpriced Inquisition Acolytes.

I'm a little late to the discussion, but there is one thing I would like to add:

The Strength 3 for the Novices seems appropriate to me, as it is specifically mentioned that they are equipped with "A strength-augmentation harness worn over her carapace armour allows the teenage girl to handle the weight of the holy bolter,"

If the strength-augmentation harness is enough to let them carry boltguns, I'm sure it would assist them in a melee.


-Praise The Emperor-

Thanks. Never too late to comment! I envision the harness more like Vasquez's .... machinegun-holding-thing in Aliens, so in melee it might be as much a hindrance as a help, though. S:3 is just what normal human folks get standard.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks. Never too late to comment! I envision the harness more like Vasquez's .... machinegun-holding-thing in Aliens, so in melee it might be as much a hindrance as a help, though. S:3 is just what normal human folks get standard.

In the Imperium, I would imagine that the strength-enhancing harness is similar in design and function to a servo-arm... which most definitely grants melee bonuses.

ETA: To expand on that a bit, I imagine it appears as a metal frame that locks around the Novice's torso, with an articulated limb that her real arm straps into. It follows her range of motion through simple pressure-plates, and ends in a gauntlet-like hand. The servo-motors, hydraulic musculature and similar systems grant this thirteen year old girl the ability to heft, brace and otherwise manipulate a boltgun. Punching someone with this machine of iron and steel would be like hitting someone with a pneumatic hammer... which is extremely capable of shattering skulls.

Okay, that's actually pretty fething cool.

"Hey, Vasquez, anyone ever mistake you for a man?" -- only with an entire army of teenage girls.

So...the S3 that lets Sisters and Guard characters use bolters?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So...the S3 that lets Sisters and Guard characters use bolters?

The same S3 that lets a knife have the same stopping power as an assault rifle, yes.

 Psienesis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

Because the Schola also trains Commissars and the Storm Trooper Regiment. This is a private military-religious academy that produces some of the hardest, all-human fighters the Imperium fields. A Schola Graduate *is* a better soldier than a rank-and-file Guardsman.

Indeed, at the Schola they carry out live firing exercises and use prisoners as targets as well as for practice in interrogation / torture techniques.

I'd go with

Ws 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, A1 I 3, Ld 7

I almost feel that the opposite should be true for Novices - that you loose a VP if you loose the squad - as the Canoness will not be pleased

Losing a VP for losing the unit is a very interesting idea. How would it play out in a game, though? The only examples I can think of are Slay The Warlord and (I think) Cypher -- both of which are (usually) high-power characters, not 8 ppm infantry.

Losing a VP for losing the unit will be bad unless they are exceptionally cheap for what they do, and you don't really need more than one such unit. (see ethereal)

After all, lets face it cheap units in MeQ (or near MeQ) armies are mostly there to be cheap objectives holders, and not for being a horde.

Maybe:

Free unit of up to 9 Novices and a Mistress- if you loose them then you loose the VP plus any relevant Kill points etc?

Make them a unique choice - one per army to reflect their rarity?

helps that narrative element that you actually don't want to get them killed?

The new Novice squad is certainly more interesting than ever before

About Crisis of Faith, I suggest changing Preferred Enemy to Hatred, or replace both special rules to Zealot, to represent the BURNING HATRED of the Novices for those who kill their mentor, and also allow them to stay around and cause damage even after the Mistress is dead.

And if the squad fails its Morale Check, does any attached IC lose her Act of Faith and Shield of Faith ? Or just the Novices ?

And I think that if there is one or more Canoness in a detachment, then an equal number of Novice Squads can be taken without using up FOC slot. How does it sound ?

 Psienesis wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks. Never too late to comment! I envision the harness more like Vasquez's .... machinegun-holding-thing in Aliens, so in melee it might be as much a hindrance as a help, though. S:3 is just what normal human folks get standard.

In the Imperium, I would imagine that the strength-enhancing harness is similar in design and function to a servo-arm... which most definitely grants melee bonuses.

ETA: To expand on that a bit, I imagine it appears as a metal frame that locks around the Novice's torso, with an articulated limb that her real arm straps into. It follows her range of motion through simple pressure-plates, and ends in a gauntlet-like hand. The servo-motors, hydraulic musculature and similar systems grant this thirteen year old girl the ability to heft, brace and otherwise manipulate a boltgun. Punching someone with this machine of iron and steel would be like hitting someone with a pneumatic hammer... which is extremely capable of shattering skulls.

Well, look at the servitors: They can lug heavy bolters, plasma cannons and the like around, and are more machine than man, but they are still S3. And the normal SoB wears Power Armour that certainly boost her strength beyond that of harnesses that the Novices are provide, but are still S3, so...yeah.

Hrm, maybe place a cap on the number of Novitiate Squads you can field, in total, and the opposing side gains 1 VP for every full squad that it either wipes out or forces to flee the table, while you gain 1 VP for every one that survives the battle? That way, there's some back-and-forth on that.

And if the squad fails its Morale Check, does any attached IC lose her Act of Faith and Shield of Faith ? Or just the Novices ?

Oooh, good catch. I should make it clear that ONLY the novices are affected, not attached ICs.

I'm almost as leery about messing with FOC limits (such as they are in this edition) as I am about VP, though.

Well, look at the servitors: They can lug heavy bolters, plasma cannons and the like around, and are more machine than man, but they are still S3. And the normal SoB wears Power Armour that certainly boost her strength beyond that of harnesses that the Novices are provide, but are still S3, so...yeah.

S3 is a really, really wide range of human ability. It encompasses just about everything from "fat schlub in the street" to "Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mr. Universe". Only the super-weak (like a 5 year old child not from Fenris, Catachan, or Cadia) or the limbless get S2, while S4+ is truly super-human strength.

Servitors, of course, replace weak flesh with muscles of cable and pistons.

 Psienesis wrote:


Servitors, of course, replace weak flesh with weak muscles of cable and pistons.

 Psienesis wrote:
Hrm, maybe place a cap on the number of Novitiate Squads you can field, in total, and the opposing side gains 1 VP for every full squad that it either wipes out or forces to flee the table, while you gain 1 VP for every one that survives the battle? That way, there's some back-and-forth on that.

I like that a lot

You could even make a SC Veteran Drill mistress who (Despite concerns by her Order) sees that the only way to truly harden her charges is to take them to the fields of battle and bloody them.

I'm intrigued but worried you'd get people just camping Novices in a fortification in their backfield near an objective, and never using them any other way. Are there any other units that have a similar "bonus VP for keeping me alive" thing?

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm intrigued but worried you'd get people just camping Novices in a fortification in their backfield near an objective, and never using them any other way. Are there any other units that have a similar "bonus VP for keeping me alive" thing?

Thats kinda where they should be? Small units of short range firepower T3 troops with medium armour? I see them as being brought to a conflict in a number of different circumstances:

1. Desperation: the Temple is going to be overun - "Rejoice for you can serve the Emperor with bolt and flame, Come let us join in him in the Light!"
2. Training: "Girls you must see the battlefield for yourself, smell it, touch it, live it - now stick close as we follow our Sisters in battle."
3. Mistake (Destiny?): "Which stupid Fether said this area was clear of the enemy"
4. The enemy drop onto a "safe" world or location and the Novices are the only ones there. "Mistress, the town has gone silent, the Vox is dead, what shall we do? "The Emperors work, child, the Emperors work"

Forging the narrative

Whilst Sacrifice is part of their service to the Emperor I personally don't like the idea of Novices used /though of in a similar way mine clearing Gretchin or the worst kind of sacrifical Guard forces.

Heh. Love your forged narratives (especially No. 3, with the screw-ups and the swearing). I worry that making the Novice Squad's survival worth 2 VP (net) will make it hard to play any of those but No. 1. Castling up and watching objectives is definitely a good role for Novices, but you shouldn't be penalized for putting them in your battle line supporting and supported by other Sisters (No. 2) or even making an army where all your Troops are Novices, Frateris, and other last-ditch choices (No. 4).

At 8 ppm, I don't see people treating them as expendable -- definitely not when there are 3 ppm Frateris Rabble around.

Do any other units exist -- besides Warlords and Cypher -- that are worth VP outside of a kill-points mission, and how do they affect play?

AFAIK there is no unit in the game that grants bonus VP to the owner outside warlord traits, and the double-sided cypher thing.

There are a few that grant VP to their killers. but even that is only within HQ. (that I am aware of)

Lone Wolves grant the enemy VP if they survive - or used to, at least, I haven't looked at the recent rules.

I think the new Space Wolves codex omitted that rule....

Yep, its now just "cant score"

Below are the (final?) EDIT: NOPE! revised rules for all three units: Novices, Throne bikers, and Vigil infiltrators, all drawing on the discussion in this thread. Many thanks to everyone who's contributed -- and don't stop commenting now, I'm eager to know if these versions work for most of you or not.

[EDIT: Re-revised Novices are here, based on further suggestions & AtoMaki's awesome playtesting

I've not taken some of the more tricky suggestions for the Novices -- e.g. they don't do anything special to VP or the FOC -- but since the previous revision, I did replace Preferred Enemy with Hatred, as per folks' suggestions. This unit is very different from the original version I posted at the top of this thread.

Vigils are also significantly revised -- a cleaner Act of Faith and some toned down unit SRs -- while Thrones basically stick with the revised Sororitas Bike rules I posted a while back and just get recosted accordingly.

[EDIT: Oh yeah, I moved the fluff to the end of the unit description instead of the beginning, since that seems to be the way Codexes are laid out now.]
[EDIT 2: I also re-revised the rules for Vigils on Wednesday morning.]

*

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Teenaged holy warriors in training
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Design Notes:



*

Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)
Sororitas Infiltrators
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Design Notes:


*

Sororitas Bike

Design notes:


Throne Squad: 70 points (Fast Attack)
Sororitas scout bikers
Throne WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Veteran Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Design notes:

Well, you could castle them, yes...

But with Maelstrom Missions being what they are, camping a few of your squads in the backfield is potentially denying you needed VP. These kids aren't here in a vacuum, and they're not free troops. Given the rather messy way Maelstrom works, these girls will probably need to unass that bunker and go for a hike downfield to grab another objective, or otherwise actively participate in the battle.

All of this, of course, very much depends on the style of game you're playing.

Also... indirect fire is a thing. Just sayin'.

Whoops, Psienesis and I mutually ninja'd each other -- see my revised rules for the Novices, Thrones, & Vigils two posts up. I agree with Psienesis' posts about Maelstrom (which I'm still trying to wrap my head around). Maybe instead of making Novices give a bonus VP for survival -- something I'm still leery of -- I should make up a special Maelstrom mission card where you get points for "blooding" them in combat without getting them killed?

Actually, the Sisters codex predates Maelstrom, so it doesn't even have a custom set of Tactical Objectives cards. Maybe that needs to be a thing?

That needs to be a thing from GW, specifically, I think. I mean, Maelstrom is kinda of a big thing with their current ruleset... obviously not the only way to play, but seems like their "main" game concept.

Though having some Sisters-specific ones would not be terrible.

ETA: I like the re-write, and I think at 95 points for the basic squad of Novices, they're pricey enough to not be auto-includes for objective-camping or AoF batteries (in a 1K points game, a single squad is almost 10% of your points, after all... 6% at a 1500 points game... that's not an insignificant amount ).. but offer enough potential value to fit in nicely with a themed army, let alone ideas for all kinds of narrative games.

Minor editing points, on the Vigils:

"Only the most cool-headed and cold-blooded Sisters are chosen for the Vigils, a elite which originated in the notoriously rational Order of the Sacred Rose."

Need a noun somewhere in the bolded part. Also, replace "a" with "an"... "an elite something-or-other". Minor quibble.

The Thrones should change the Wargear section to "bike-mounted stormbolter", as that is mentioned as a swap-out item later in the Options section.

The fluff description of "Loose the Fateful Lightning" is a work of art. Should probably be accompanied by a Wu-Tang soundtrack.

Okay, so we did something like 5+ test battles with the Novices, and we concluded that:
- The unit itself is okay for the price. Maybe they should have an option for a heavy weapon too, because heavy bolters/heavy flamers would be nice. Oh, and maybe option for a bolt pistol + ccw combo instead of the boltgun.
- The Crisis of Faith is a pretty strange rule. In one battle, the Novices ran off the table because of it... and they dragged the Canoness in the unit with themselves. It was kinda-sorta LOLastic.
- The Little Sisters special rule is redundant, it wasn't used even once. The Sisters were either wiped GG no RE before they could use it, or there were no initiates at all in the combat. There was another annoying thing too with this special rule: low-Initiative opponents couldn't rigger it in a meaningful way because they were killing Novices after the initiates had already made their attacks.
- We talked about the fluff too, and we aren't exactly sure whether the conception work in canon. Novices are trained in the Order's convent, that is usually a pretty-darn safe place (Ophelia, Terra, places like that), so fighting can't just "catch" them. But if they catch the fight, then I guess the initiates are already okay with the situation (otherwise, they wouldn't bring the novices along in the first place).

Overall, we would remove 'Little Sisters' and change 'Crisis of Faith' to only ban Acts of Faith (no retreating or loss of SoF). Otherwise, the unit is good.

Awesome. Many thanks. Sounds like I can delete "Little Sisters" altogether, then.

As for Crisis of Faith having LOLtastic results -- I like that, actually. How on earth did they manage to flub the Leadership test with a Ld10 Canoness around, though?

AtoMaki, waitasec: which version of the "Little Sisters" rule were you using? The old one that is only triggered when a novice dies, or the revised one that simply requires novices to be in combat (ie in mortal peril) ?

 AtoMaki wrote:
Okay, so we did something like 5+ test battles with the Novices, and we concluded that:
- The unit itself is okay for the price. Maybe they should have an option for a heavy weapon too, because heavy bolters/heavy flamers would be nice. Oh, and maybe option for a bolt pistol + ccw combo instead of the boltgun.
- The Crisis of Faith is a pretty strange rule. In one battle, the Novices ran off the table because of it... and they dragged the Canoness in the unit with themselves. It was kinda-sorta LOLastic.
- The Little Sisters special rule is redundant, it wasn't used even once. The Sisters were either wiped GG no RE before they could use it, or there were no initiates at all in the combat. There was another annoying thing too with this special rule: low-Initiative opponents couldn't rigger it in a meaningful way because they were killing Novices after the initiates had already made their attacks.
- We talked about the fluff too, and we aren't exactly sure whether the conception work in canon. Novices are trained in the Order's convent, that is usually a pretty-darn safe place (Ophelia, Terra, places like that), so fighting can't just "catch" them. But if they catch the fight, then I guess the initiates are already okay with the situation (otherwise, they wouldn't bring the novices along in the first place).

Overall, we would remove 'Little Sisters' and change 'Crisis of Faith' to only ban Acts of Faith (no retreating or loss of SoF). Otherwise, the unit is good.

You'd probably prefer my novices. They only have Shield of Faith and they're on the battlefield because a Wizard Inquisitor did it.

They're part of the Inquisitorial Guard squad in my Codex Sisters of Battle: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

Can the novices emulate St. Celestine?

 SisterSydney wrote:
AtoMaki, waitasec: which version of the "Little Sisters" rule were you using? The old one that is only triggered when a novice dies, or the revised one that simply requires novices to be in combat (ie in mortal peril) ?

Both. The second version was a little bit more convenient as it eliminated the problem with low-initiative opponents, but it didn't help that much. Guess' it is just too rare for multiple Sister units to get stuck in the same combat in the same time, because the army mechanic doesn't really support this situations (squads are too spread out).

That, I think, is a playstyle concern, rather than an inherent flaw in the rule. Yes, you might have to assign a squad of Battle-Sister babysitters to make most efficient use out of the ability... but that is not that terrible an application of the rule, as its a situational power (and a buff for the Mistress leading the squad in any event).

Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.

So I think I'll keep "Little Sisters" -- but if anyone has a better idea for how to express on the tabletop the adult Sisters' protectiveness towards Novices, I'm all ears.

As for "Crisis of Faith," I think I'll rewrite it as a straight Leadership check per AtoMaki's suggestion, rather than a Morale Check, so failure doesn't cause a potential break-and-run, just the loss of AOF and SOF. (I do think the unit should lose both, though).

I know everyone loves Novices, but does anyone have comments about the other two units, in particular the Vigil infiltrators? The Throne bikers I'm pretty confident in, after much back and forth in this and previous threads, but I'm still uncertain about the Vigils' Act of Faith and particularly whether they should get Precision Shots all the time or only as an AOF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
Can the novices emulate St. Celestine?

Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?

I like the Vigils... but I think that, with the Battle-Siblings to all other Imperial armies, that could get pretty nasty pretty quickly.

BB in with Space Wolves (yes, yes, fluff-killing, bear with me) and pod in 3 or 4 squads of Vigils into the enemy backfield and you have a *nasty* IC/Tankhunting/MC hunting party that only need to survive for one shooting phase to really accomplish their mission, and any Turn longer they survive to shoot at enemy units with their bolters/meltas/what-have-yous is just icing.

Properly set-up, pod these ladies in on T2 while the other half of your army is blitzing forward in Rhino transports or on bikes in T1, and you basically sandwich the enemy between them... and that isn't even considering what allies you might take from the Space Wolves.

Drop pod abuse is definitely a thing. Be glad I didn't give Vigils access to Heavy Weapons, though I'm tempted! (It seems out of character for troops who are going to stealthily infiltrate on foot). I'm not convinced that the potential for abuse requires a rewrite of the unit -- especially since they're 25 points per T:3 W:1 model.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.

Thing is, that even if there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.

my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Can the novices emulate St. Celestine?

Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?

Her resurrection is an act of faith.
That's a pretty big problem here that needs to be addressed.


Also, Id recommend to make the "crisis of faith" thing not trigger when a SoB IC is attached and the mistress dies, but DO trigger when an attached IC dies.
It should be the top-ranking member in the squad that matters, not the superior specifically. (maybe make it trigger when a team meber with the highest leadership dies?)

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.

Thing is, that even there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.

my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).

Avoiding CC because you suck at it in general regardless of specific conditions is a mistake.
Yes, sisters as a whole are not good at CC, but there are things out there who are worse. quite a few things. or things that are about as good at CC, but so much better at shooting you win by simply blocking their shots.
Even my tau find occasions where they find it useful to jump into CC in every other game.
So when you got an half-decent unit (sisters) that get a situational bonus (from little sisters) and another unit is already involved in that combat (the novices) that are partly useful anyway (sheer power of krak grenades)-piling it up, you can beat most non-CC dedicated units.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.

Thing is, that even there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.

my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).

Avoiding CC because you suck at it in general regardless of specific conditions is a mistake.
Yes, sisters as a whole are not good at CC, but there are things out there who are worse. quite a few things. or things that are about as good at CC, but so much better at shooting you win by simply blocking their shots.
Even my tau find occasions where they find it useful to jump into CC in every other game.
So when you got an half-decent unit (sisters) that get a situational bonus (from little sisters) and another unit is already involved in that combat (the novices) that are partly useful anyway (sheer power of krak grenades)-piling it up, you can beat most non-CC dedicated units.

Actually, since the Novices are backfield units, they will never meet any of those weak-in-combat units unless your opponent is doing something very wrong. And since Novices drop like flied in combat, the Sisters might find themselves in a very sticky situation for that 1-2 extra hit as they lose combat from Combat Resolution and die from Sweeping Advance.

Why exactly are novices backfield units?
You can amass large numbers with ease and use them to push forward along with your main force, they are the "quantity over quality" sisters.
And as base troop units, just shoving a hell lot of them forward CAN work.




Also, you seem to assume they drop like flies in combat form some reason, why?
Not everything you face out there has any CC abilities to brag about, they will fall against anyone packing power weapons or krak grenades, but not everyone does.
In fact, if you look at their price range, they crush most things of similar value in CC due to the fact they got krak, and the similarly costed opponent does not.
And amusingly, against MCs-they survive better than space marines. per model, not to mention per points where they are much cheaper.


So if you run them up against IG groups, lesser orks, tau, eldar non-PA aspects etc-they can win. especially when price is considered.
The first rule of CC many people forget-you don't need to be any good at it, you just need to be better than whatever you fight against.

Interesting discussion. BoomWolf, I presume you mean the big deal is that they have frag (assault) grenades, not that they have krak (which only help assaults on vehicles)?

Even against elite CC units dropping into the backfield, I can see Novices and the Little Sisters rule being some use. You could park five Repentia in your backfield too -- since many people say they're best as counterattack units where they don't have to slog towards the target and got shut up -- and tell the Repentia "if you keep the kids alive, you're back in the order." Imagine the "stay away from her, you BITCH!" scene from aliens, with Ripley in her walker replaced by chainsaw-wielding fetish nuns....

Actually, meant them both in a way, just amde a jumble of what grenades do what (I only use photon and EMP after all )

Kraks let them be of value in CC againt tanks too, or down a small walker (and do a bit of damage to MCs, especially 4+ nid MCs)

Frags let them be semi-useful in actually charging at stuff, especially low initative stuff.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Why exactly are novices backfield units?
You can amass large numbers with ease and use them to push forward along with your main force, they are the "quantity over quality" sisters.
And as base troop units, just shoving a hell lot of them forward CAN work.

Also, you seem to assume they drop like flies in combat form some reason, why?

Because I have seen them in action . That's why I know that they are in fact backfield units best used for sitting on objectives while the Sisters roll up the enemy. And that's why I know that the risk of squad wipe from Sweeping Advance is pretty darn high - in fact, all the Novice Squads I've seen in combat were swept (ore won the combat) rather than killed to the last.

Also, you can use Krak grenades only against vehicles, gun emplacements and MCs.

Atomaki is the world's leading expert on this unit at the moment. Question re "Little Sisters," revised version: Understanding it was rare for another Sisters unit to show up in the same combat, did having Hatred on the Mistress of Novices make a difference? It's just one character with a couple of attacks, admittedly....

 BoomWolf wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Can the novices emulate St. Celestine?

Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?

Her resurrection is an act of faith.
That's a pretty big problem here that needs to be addressed.

That was my thought. I don’t have a copy of the newest SoB rules, but recalled Celestines’s getting back up as a AoF. Seemed inappropriate for novices to copy that one, but wasn’t sure how the wording worked out.

Yeah, I see how Novice are fragile, but trying to fix that by giving them the power to come back to life seems -- um -- overkill.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, I see how Novice are fragile, but trying to fix that by giving them the power to come back to life seems -- um -- overkill.

Celestine's AoF would only affect one model. And I think it would be pretty neat, actually .

Hey! Here's an idea for a being-protective-of "Little Sisters" special rule. Instead of all the Hatred and Preferred Enemy things I've been messing with, give nearby adult Sisters, in essence, Tau-style Supporting Fire -- if someone charges the Novices, any Sisters nearby can fire Overwatch.

I also like Atomaki's idea of giving the squad Hit & Run with the Mistress staying behind to sacrifice herself, especially since it triggers the "Crisis of Faith" rule, but what I really want to do is provide a way for multiple adult Sisters squads to protect the novices, not just an individual model.

I also like Nevelon's and Atomaki's idea of one novice coming back from the dead, but that'd be a lot of rules to revive one 8-point model.

Hrm, maybe Supporting Fire? But, then, that kind of flips things right around.... now instead of camping them on the backfield, you'll want them nearer the front... and in line to *be* subject to Assault, which is only situationally useful against certain armies (it does not, for example, provide anything vs any sort of gunline army).

And I think 1 Novice miraculously surviving the tank-shell that wipes out her unit is not particularly out-of-step with the Sisterhood in general, so perhaps mimicing Celestine's AoF is not a terrible thing.

Well, that's the cynical way to use Supporting Fire with Novices. You could also camp them in the backfield and use Supporting Fire to protect them so that, when the enemy's elite deep strikers try to charge your innocent little girls, their Retributor big sisters say "oh HELL no" and blaze away.

I got the question: If you wanted to have the Sisters in Necromunda, what would you do in order to make them into something other than the buffed-up Arbites?

Never even read the Necromunda rules, so I couldn't say.

shinr wrote:
I got the question: If you wanted to have the Sisters in Necromunda, what would you do in order to make them into something other than the buffed-up Arbites?

Ehm... the Sisters would basically be buffed-up Arbites in Necromunda. I'd give them a 3+ Armor Save, S3, T3, maybe each one is a 2W model, Ld 8 or 9... and maybe an AoF ability that can be used once per game to add +2 to the damage of a melee or shooting attack?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Hey! Here's an idea for a being-protective-of "Little Sisters" special rule. Instead of all the Hatred and Preferred Enemy things I've been messing with, give nearby adult Sisters, in essence, Tau-style Supporting Fire -- if someone charges the Novices, any Sisters nearby can fire Overwatch.

I also like Atomaki's idea of giving the squad Hit & Run with the Mistress staying behind to sacrifice herself, especially since it triggers the "Crisis of Faith" rule, but what I really want to do is provide a way for multiple adult Sisters squads to protect the novices, not just an individual model.

I also like Nevelon's and Atomaki's idea of one novice coming back from the dead, but that'd be a lot of rules to revive one 8-point model.

If you're still thinking of how to promote a "protect the kiddies" concept when playing Novices, what about having them improve the longer they survive? Essentially, take away Shield of Faith and give them them something along the lines of Dark Eldar's "Power from Pain" special rule. After all, they're only half-baked nuns and aren't fully fledged Sisters yet.

The way I'd set it is to give them a "Novice" special rule that gives them extra abilities/bonuses depending on the turn. For instance:

Turn 1: Nothing
Turn 2: Invulnerable save (6+)
Turn 3: Shield of faith
Turn 4: Fleet
Turn 5: Preferred enemy
Turn 6: Martyrdom, Relentless

Huh. Interesting. That's a hella fast learning curve, though!

Turn 7: They become a squadron of penitent engines.

Turn 8: They all become Celestine. All of them.

... I think such a structure for "building towards greatness" would work better in a narrative campaign, and be based on number of battles or campaign objectives attained.

I was just trying to point out that they shouldn't become better than regular sisters.

My counterargument to that would be that - at least not from a gameplay perspective - there's no point having the Novices be weaker than the generic, all-purpose unit of the codex. If Novices are not better their competitor for slots, then they would simply never be used since they lack a role.

Having a unit that progressively gets better as the game goes on creates an interesting dynamic and strategic element to the game; especially within the context where most other units in the army do not.

Another idea for the protectiveness of little sisters would be to boost their shied of faith to a 5++. This could represent the senior sisters praying for the safety of the novices, or the fact that the Emperor looks out for children and fools, and they are a bit of both.

Mechanically, it replaces a semi-complicated special rule you need to remember and keep track of who it affects, etc, with a simple passive bonus.

The cool ideas keep coming -- but I think I'm going to go with my own "Tau-style supporting fire" version of "Little Sisters." I want the rule to actually cause adult Sororitas to do something on the tabletop and encourage players to protect Novices with regular Sisters. As for their tactical role, well, they're cheap second-line troops to give you a little extra Objective Secured, and potentially act as bait for enemy charges.

Also I've toned down Crisis of Faith so the squad doesn't necessarily rout.

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Teenaged holy warriors in training
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Design Notes:

In newer codexes they get rid of "X or fewer" restriction for dedicated transports. Just sayin'

Because most such units can Combat Squad to meet the transport capacity of the vehicle, though I don't see a problem with taking a church bus for a unit that cannot all fit into it. It's still a Rhino, which provides fire-support and cover.

Mistress needs a Crozius option. Just sayin'.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The cool ideas keep coming -- but I think I'm going to go with my own "Tau-style supporting fire" version of "Little Sisters." I want the rule to actually cause adult Sororitas to do something on the tabletop and encourage players to protect Novices with regular Sisters. As for their tactical role, well, they're cheap second-line troops to give you a little extra Objective Secured, and potentially act as bait for enemy charges.

Also I've toned down Crisis of Faith so the squad doesn't necessarily rout.

Spoiler:

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Teenaged holy warriors in training
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
[spoiler]
Unit Composition: 1 Mistress of Novices, 9 Novices
Unit Type: Infantry; Mistress is Infantry (Character)

Wargear (novices): Carapace armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades
Wargear (Mistress): Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades

Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith

Crisis of Faith
A Mistress of Novices spends years guiding and guarding her young charges. To see her killed shakes them to their souls. The bereaved Novices may lose heart at the death of their mentor -- or they may seek to avenge her with a reckless fury that older and wiser soldiers would not dare.
If a Mistress of Novices is removed as a casualty, her squad must take a Leadership Check at the end of the phase. (This is in addition to any Morale check caused by casualties, losing a close combat, or any other reason). The Novices naturally do not benefit from the Mistress's Leadership, but they may still benefit from other characters'.
If the squad fails this Morale Check, all Novice models immediately and permanently lose the Act of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules.
If the squad passes this Morale Check, it immediately gains the Zealot special rule.

Little Sisters
Full-fledged Sisters of Battle may tease the young Novices mercilessly, but they are fiercely protective of them.
When an enemy unit declares a charge against a Novice squad, all adult Sisters units within 6" of the charging unit’s target can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge. Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase.
An adult Sister of Battle is any model with the Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules that is not itself a Novice

Act of Faith: Emulate the Elders
Still learning the ways of the Adepta Sororitas as they are, Novices depend on the example of their elders -- even when those elders are rank-and-file Battle Sisters themselves barely out of their teens.
One use only. This Act of Faith may be used in any phase during which a unit of adult Battle Sisters successfully performed an Act of Faith within 6" of the Novice Squad. If successful, the Novice Squad immediately performs the same Act of Faith (if it is physically possible to do so: Novices may not imitate a Throne Squad's turbo-boost, for example).
An adult Sister of Battle is any model with the Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules that is not itself a Novice.

Dedicated Transport:
A Novice squad with ten models or fewer may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport.

Options:
Add up to ten additional Novices: 8 points per model
One Novice may take an item from the Special Weapons list.
The Mistress of Novices may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
The Mistress may take melta bombs: 5 points

When a prospective Sister of Battle graduates from the Schola Progenium around age 12, she is sent to the Adepta Sororitas for what is typically a six-year Novitiate. As a Novice, she learns the Sisterhood's traditions, rituals, tactics, and weaponry. A strength-augmentation harness worn over her carapace armour allows the teenage girl to handle the weight of the holy bolter, letting her train from the first day of her Novitiate with the weapon she will most likely use for the rest of her life.
As a matter of both military doctrine and maternal instinct, the Sisterhood tries to keep its Novices safe, by the standards of the Imperium. Novices do sometimes accompany Battle Sisters on campaign as pages, serving their elders and observing the Sororitas way of war first-hand while being carefully graded for their skills, piety, and nerve. Older Novices being considered for the Orders Militant are even organized into squads and sent into combat as a form of live-fire training, albeit against weak targets and with extensive backup. Only as a desperate measure would the Sororitas throw their "Little Sisters" into pitched battle. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the grim darkness of a waning Imperium, times are desperate all the time....

Design Notes:

Spoiler:

Start with a basic Battle Sister @ 12 ppm.

-1 BS: -10 points
-1 Ld: -5 pts
Replace Power Armour with Carapace: -5 pts (per a PM from Ovion)
Total subtractions: -20 points

Little Sisters: +10 points
Essentially Tau Supporting fire (10 points) for multiple Sisters units (multiply by...something) but only protecting one unit (divide by... the same thing?), so 10 pts.

Essentially Hatred for the Mistress in close combat but not shooting (10/2 = 5 points) plus potentially other Sisters units, again in close combat but not shooting (10/2 = 5 pts), potentially for multiple Sister squads but only under very specialized circumstances (which I figure cancel out). So 10 points.

Crisis of Faith: +/-0 points
A tricky one to cost. First, it potentially causes the unit to take a morale check when it otherwise wouldn't have to, which is bad. Second, assuming no Independent Character has joined the unit, it's a Ld 7 test, so about a 50-50 chance to succeed or fail. On a succeed, it effectively adds two special rules, Fearless & Hatred (+20 points), and on a failure, it takes away two SRs (-20).

NET: -10 points

Divide by 3 for high-quality troops, which these still are relative to Guardsmen: -3.3 pts. Then take -1 more because they don't have Bolt Pistols.

12 - 4.3 = 7.7 points, round up to 8.

But the Mistress is a standard Battle Sister (12 pts) with the Veteran Superior upgrade (10 points), so it's a squad with nine 8-pt models (=72 pts) and one 22-pointer: 94 points, round up to 95 for sanity's sake.

[/spoiler]

I've sent the calls.

So a unit can take a dedicated transport it can't possibly fit inside? Huh.

 SisterSydney wrote:
So a unit can take a dedicated transport it can't possibly fit inside? Huh.

Yep.

Ooookay, after two test battles, I can say that the not!SupportFire rule is a little bit too good. It actually makes the Novices a better choice than the normal Sisters because of the synergy. SoB has too much flamers for this kind of stuff, and a Novice unit with a 4xHF Retributor squad and a 4xFlamer Dominion squad is a serious headache for any assault unit.

BAD GUYS: Let's charge the teenage girls, we'll sweep 'em easy.
SISTERS: Like hell you will!
DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA FWOOSH FWOOSH FWOOSH
SURVIVING BAD GUY: So. Much. Overwatch. [dies]

I like it. I'm not so worried about balance: surely the solution for the bad guys is, y'know, don't charge the Novices. Kill the grown-ups first.

All the protecionism will contradicts a bit with how regular sisters will use novices as a meetshield bauble wrap for overwatch. Like firewarriors are using kroot.

SisterSydney wrote:So a unit can take a dedicated transport it can't possibly fit inside? Huh.

Yes, it's very useful for things like large Sisters squads taking Immolators as fire support - like how they could take them as a Heavy choice in the witch hunter book, kind of.


Also, flamers for supporting fire doesn't make sense. The flamer is indiscriminate and very short ranged. If you use it with Supporting Fire, it should use the template, not Wall of Death, and follow the normal rules for templates and friendly models.

Yeah. Part of me thinks "why should I have to fix GW's Supporting Fire rule?" but more of me thinks "supporting fire from flamers is absurd as implemented." Weren't people talking about long, thin lines of Tau and Kroot so everybody could overwatch everybody else with a cumulative zillion flamers?

Rather than try to implement supporting fire flamers properly, which would require some tricky rules writing, I think I'll just say no supporting fire from template weapons, period.

As for Kooooaei's comment : yes, I see your point. Think of it as the rank-and-file Sisters (the models) being protective while the commander (you) cynically exploits that protective instinct.

As for dedicated transports that can't hold the whole unit, I can justify that in my mind as them being DTs for a smaller squad that's been absorbed into a larger formation for this particular battle. I wish people besides IG could get "combined squads."

With the "flamers can't do supporting fire" fix, I strongly suspect Novices are done. Many thanks to everyone who's helped. What I would really love your help on now is my new Sororitas HQs, ranging from customizable Canonesses to army-buffing Confessors and Repentia Champions.

Well... I mean, that's one of the reasons to bring a flamer. Is because you want to set those people over there on fire, but you're just too far away to get the job done... you need something to throw flames onto them.

That OW with a Flamer is a huge heapin' helpin' of Wall of Death is... kinda how GW intended flamers to work. It's why the Wall of Death rule exists. Its how you ruin the day of an Invisible unit, by inflicting d3 automatic hits per flamer in the unit... you know, just tossing burning promethium out there all willy-nilly, dousing invisible mofos in gouts of burning Piety.

Its also a lesson to the heretical scum: don't hit the children.... that's the Mistress of Novices' job. Find more worthy targets. Construct additional pylons.

I know, I'm torn about whether to "fix" supporting fire. There are weirdnesses when one unit somehow fires overwatch for another using flamers that are (a) out of range and (b) would have to fire through friendlies anyway.

Honestly I just don't see the "not supporting fire" really fit thematically, as it DOES push the initiates into a meatshield role, and that's not quite good fluff-wise.

I think we need a whole new concept here, first we need to decide what is the initiates supposed ROLE on the battlefield, than give them an ability to match, currently they got no defined role, and as such we are flailing with random stuff who each turn out somehow "wrong" in its feel.

Their role isn't as distinct from Battle Sisters as, say, Marine Scouts from Tac Squads or Kroot from Fire Warriors, and that is an issue. Essentially they're less expensive second-tier infantry to supplement the main battle line or camp on objectives -- but that may not be enough.

I do see how the "meatshield" thing could be a problem: put a thin screen of Novices in front of your main battle line, so the enemy can't charge your regulars without charging the Novices first and getting Supporting Fired to death. Hrrm.

Hmm... here's an idea. Flip the Supporting Fire role around. Make it the kids who are providing the supporting fire to their Big Sisters... they're there to learn how war is waged, but they're supposed to be watching how its done... so seeing one of their Sister units be subject to an assault, that triggers the "1, 2, 3, Roast 'em!" response.

Also, "1, 2, 3, Roast 'em!" needs to be a SR that does... something. Not sure what yet. But something.

You're getting closer than I was, but having the Novices do supporting fire implies somehow they've learned to do something that they just forget when they become Battle Sisters. I'm thinking now of making the Novices act like a standard or banner or laud hailer, given adult Sisters within 12" rerolls on some Leadership tests, or Stubborn, to reflect how hard they fight not to let their Little Sisters down or leave them in danger.

That creates an incentive for the player to protect the Novices, since they're a weak unit that helps him get the most out of other, stronger units. It also means there's no point in spamming Novices or using them as meat shields.

Aura of LD reroll/stubborn does seem to fit nicely, yes.

 SisterSydney wrote:
You're getting closer than I was, but having the Novices do supporting fire implies somehow they've learned to do something that they just forget when they become Battle Sisters. I'm thinking now of making the Novices act like a standard or banner or laud hailer, given adult Sisters within 12" rerolls on some Leadership tests, or Stubborn, to reflect how hard they fight not to let their Little Sisters down or leave them in danger.

That creates an incentive for the player to protect the Novices, since they're a weak unit that helps him get the most out of other, stronger units. It also means there's no point in spamming Novices or using them as meat shields.

Because the Novices don't get "Supporting Fire". What they get is a faction-specific ability that allows them to support BSS (or other) Sororitas squads who are subject to assault.

This, of course, is perfectly in line with GW's tendency to make up a brand-new rule for a unit that almost exactly mimics an already-existing rule.

But it's basically Supporting Fire that only applies to other Sororitas units. You can't, for example, take 5 squads of Novices and park them around a SM Tac Squad to get mass Supporting Fire.

And as to why they "forget" how to do this when they become full Battle Sisters? They don't. The abstraction of the ruleset simply doesn't provide for a mechanic for it (also, BSS tend to look out for their own squad first, primarily, knowing that their Sisters over there can more than handle themselves).

The final (?) version of the Novices, with "Little Sisters" acting as a morale booster to their big sisters:

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Teenaged holy warriors in training
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Design Notes:

I couldn't resist fiddling with the Vigils -- they now have a suitably creepy special rule, "This Is Your Target," instead of a multi-function AOF. Comments on whether this is OP are welcome:

Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)
Sororitas Infiltrators
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++


Design Notes:

I’d worry about infiltrating TL’d melta squads w/the monster/tank hunter special rule. That’s a crippling alpha strike. I know you can scout dominion squads up for something similar.

Although I guess you can’t start in melta range. IIRC you need to place infiltrators 12” away from the enemy, so your 6” move won’t get you in the kill zone. Still, 4xMelta (5 w/ a combi) S8 AP 1 shots re-rolling to hit/pens.

If these guys borrowed a SW drop pod, they’d do some nasty things.

I might wrap “This is your target” rule into the AoF. And let them choose it on use. One advantage of this would be to reduce bookkeeping. You wouldn’t have to track which squad hates what.

Those are good points. Ironically, I had the AOF working as "pick one of three" originally, so I'll just change that back. What I had NOT thought through was the interaction of Infiltration, movement, and melta range. You're right that the Vigils can't get into melta range on turn one, but that still gives me an idea for how to tone down Twin-Linked (which I still want, to reflect their superb-even-for-Sisters markswomanship). Instead of "This Is Your Target," how about this unique special rule:

Infallible Aim
As the foremost markswomen of the Sisterhood, the Vigils can assume an almost supernatural stillness as they take aim at a priority target -- at the price of tactical flexibility.
Before the beginning of your movement phase, you may declare that a Vigils squad is using Infallible Aim. All the squad's shooting weapons gain the Twin-Linked and Heavy special rules until the end of your turn.


So no moving or charging on the same turn they use Twin-Linked, unless they want to drop to BS1, which forces an interesting tactical choice.

Wouldn't they use Stalker bolt rounds or a actual sniper rifle?

So similar to that used by Telion (and presumably other Marines if GW bothered to think about it - esp Raven Guard)

so Range 36", S X, Ap5, Heavy 1, Sniper.

I really like the description /fluff - I just don't know why 40k has an obsession with Sniper "squads" rather than 1 or 2 (wo)man teams?

Yeah, the Stalker Bolter is an interesting option, and it's annoying GW hasn't given it to other Marines. As is, though, it's a unique bit of wargear for a special character. Even if it weren't, it's less Sisterly/AWESOME than infiltrating melta and flamers.

As for GW creating sniper squads rather than 1-2 (wo)man teams, I think the answer is that the rules don't handle a realistic sniper team well. A real-life team relies on camouflage and avoiding notice, and there are no hidden units or spotting rules in 40K, so they'd just be shot to death or assaulted in short order.

The closest they get is Guard special weapon squads which are 3x sniper and 3x spotter (with lasgun).

You could do something like this;

Sororitas Sniper Team
Some Vigils find themselves preferring the range and power of a stalker-modified Bolter over the close-range death dealt by their standard weapons. These specialised Vigils work in small squads that disperse upon the battlefield, striking before fading away.

Statline: standard Vigil for all models.

Unit Composition: 3 Vigil Snipers, 3 Vigil Spotters.

Wargear (Vigil Sniper): Power armour, frag and krak grenades, Camo Cloak, Sniper Rifle, Bolt Pistol

Wargear (Vigil Spotter): Power armour, frag and krak grenades, Camo Cloak, Bolt Pistol, Magnoculars

Special Rules: Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith, Precision Shots, Infiltrate, Strike and Fade, Unerring Vengeance, Dispersed Deployment

Magnoculars: Instead of firing her weapon, a model with Magnoculars may instead choose one of the following:
- Apply Twin-Linked to their unit's shooting attacks.
- Apply Precision Shots (3+) to their unit's shooting attacks.

Dispersed Deployment: When deploying the Vigil Snipers, you may split the unit into three teams, each containing a Sniper and a Spotter. For the rest of the game, treat these teams each as single squads.

Strike and Fade: Vigil Snipers may never claim or contest objectives. If a Vigil Sniper team moved in the previous turn, it has a 2+ cover save. If the Vigil Sniper team is ever assaulted, instead of firing Overwatch they may instead elect to be removed from play. They may take no further part in the battle, but do not count as being slain for the purposes of First Blood or Victory Points.

That's verrrrrrry interesting. Really creative unit design.

Indeed I am quite envious about how well you have put that together

love all of it

Maybe give the Spotter a bolter as normal weapon as well? Do sniper spotters normally have a normal weapon?

Ah, it's not so special really. I just combined the Vigils Sydney wrote with the old Guard Sniper rules from the original Cities of Death and the Combat Squad rules from the Space Marines. ^^;

Hm, well, historically speaking, only Officers carry pistols, but in 40k, everyone has one as a side-arm, so I'm not sure if 'normally' really applies. I chose not to give her one to discourage the usage of them as throwaway 24" skirmishers and to balance out the 2+ cover for moving - 'real' sniper doctrine has the shooter relocate between shots to prevent anyone tracking them down by the muzzle flash, even if it's just a case of moving to the next window down.

Re: Dispersed Deployment

Instead of adding an extra special rule, a simpler way to go about it would be for the slot to be composed of 1-3 Vigil Squads; each composed of 1 Sniper and 1 Spotter.


Re: Snipers moving between shots

I dunno... I was always of the understanding that snipers tended to do the exact opposite - namely to recon an area, find the ideal site and camp out there for hours (even days) waiting for their target(s). And when they fired, they stayed put since the movement would give away their location far more than the muzzle flash (which is tiny). Especially since their carefully crafted camouflage would no longer blend as seamlessly with the new position.

namely to recon an area, find the ideal site and camp out there for hours (even days) waiting for their target(s)

That is for a SOG (Special Operations Group) sniper who is targeting 1 specific target (either individual person or individual who has a specific function... you might not know who the boss of that compound is, but you'll know them when you see them).

A sniper assigned to an infantry combat patrol or LRRP will not sit somewhere for days, he moves with the unit, and so needs to take advantage of the battleground to remove high-priority targets (like enemy with rocket launchers, machine guns or other heavy weapons), and will need to remain mobile during a fire-fight, both to prevent being spotted and also to adjust to changes in firing lines and targets of opportunity.

Indeed.

Also, I didn't consider the mini-platoon way of doing it - combat squadding was what came to mind. I don't see how either way is any more or less complex, to be honest. Both involve effectively buying three units as one choice.

I'm going to stick with the standard squad approach, though, and incorporate y'all's suggestions on the Act of Faith:

Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)
Sororitas Infiltrators
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++


Design Notes:

With all this talk of sniper rifles, you might want to add the stalker-pattern bolter to your special weapon list.

The spotter discusion also brings to mind something like an aupex or signum for the sarge. Or if you are going to do the 2 sister sniper/spotter pairs, that might be a good way to give the spotter a role other then ablative wound for the shooter.

That's attractive. I did think of putting a sniper weapon in the Special Weapons list at one point, so that any Sisters squad could get one.

Telion's personal customized sniper-bolter is perhaps too potent to just copy its stats, though. We need something between his weapon and the standard boltgun, perhaps?
Stalker: 36" S:X AP:5 Heavy 2, Sniper
Boltgun: 24" S:4 AP:5 Rapid Fire

Hmmmm.

just make It Heavy 1 as I sugested earlier? or even 30"

Must admit I still prefer Mikos version

Good suggestions. Question: Does this go on the Special Weapons list or the Heavy Weapons list? Either way a regular BSS can take one and a SCS can take four, but as a Special Dominions can take four while Retributors can take none, as a Heavy Retributors can take four and Dominions can take none. Given that it's not a weapon for mobile warfare but for going static, I kind of prefer putting in on the Heavy list.

Miko's spotter Sisters are pretty awesome, but I'm feeling a little cautious about trying to make the mechanics work.

Sniper Rifle, definitely a Heavy Weapon.

The only way to make my teams work is to have them as their own unique unit. You can't just tack them onto another squad for the same effect, although you could say that a Sister in a Vigil squad without a different weapon upgrade could take the Magnoculars.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sniper Rifle, definitely a Heavy Weapon.

The only way to make my teams work is to have them as their own unique unit. You can't just tack them onto another squad for the same effect, although you could say that a Sister in a Vigil squad without a different weapon upgrade could take the Magnoculars.

On the flip side, the box standard Sniper rifles are on the Special Weapons list for the Imperial Guard.

Which makes no sense, really - but it lets you specialise a support platoon by taking three Sniper Squads and three Mortar Squads (or other heavy weapon squad), so I won't complain.

I mean, in the context of the Guard book, a Sniper + Spotter team would be well represented by the Heavy Weapon Team rules.

It's also a cost thing, I suspect - since if a sniper squad was a Heavy Weapons Squad, it would cost 51 points. Which could instead give you 5 Ratlings; which grant you more shots, more accuracy, and more models. Meanwhile, as a Special Weapons Squad, it would instead cost 36 points; which is comparable to 3-4 Ratlings. Meaning, the slight extra cost and loss in accuracy is compensated for with ablative wounds.