So, from what I have seen so far from myself and comments from others.
The Bad and Terrible:
Wazdakka and Oldzogwart removed: They were removed because no one used them, because they were badly designed and none of the codex was built to make a good army for them.
Flash Gits - We finally get a flashgitz models and the rules for them are complete trash.
Other than an actual model for it which many say looks terrible, The Looted Wagon has almost the exact same Terrible rules as it did before.
Instead of lowering the cost of Lootas and Tank Bustas, They thought it was a good idea to increase their already almost land raider cost even higher.
Waagh is ruined.
GHAZ IS NERFED!!! WTF?! Ghazzy was our only viable option for a HQ after 1850 points! The moment a list takes anyone else after that and our whole army collapses. wtf?
They never nurfed the HQ's from the other armies from older codexes. In fact they got stronger and even more powerful. Plus ghazzy is an Warhammer 40k Icon...so why?
The Meh:
Morka and gorka Naughts
Designs of the new models
Grots and Gretchen
Boys are uninspired. Still cannot take the options they should be able too.
Waagh is slightly better.
Stormboys can assault flyers apparently
The Good:
????
Deep striking mega armor I guess?
I am just not hearing much good about the codex from ney sayers right now.
Come on Neysayers~! Gimme some glimmers of hope here!
Vasarto wrote: So, from what I have seen so far from myself and comments from others.
The Bad and Terrible:
Wazdakka and Oldzogwart removed: They were removed because no one used them, because they were badly designed and none of the codex was built to make a good army for them.
Flash Gits - We finally get a flashgitz models and the rules for them are complete trash.
Other than an actual model for it which many say looks terrible, The Looted Wagon has almost the exact same Terrible rules as it did before.
Instead of lowering the cost of Lootas and Tank Bustas, They thought it was a good idea to increase their already almost land raider cost even higher.
Waagh is ruined.
GHAZ IS NERFED!!! WTF?! Ghazzy was our only viable option for a HQ after 1850 points! The moment a list takes anyone else after that and our whole army collapses. wtf?
They never nurfed the HQ's from the other armies from older codexes. In fact they got stronger and even more powerful. Plus ghazzy is an Warhammer 40k Icon...so why?
The Meh:
Morka and gorka Naughts
Designs of the new models
Grots and Gretchen
Boys are uninspired. Still cannot take the options they should be able too.
Waagh is slightly better.
Stormboys can assault flyers apparently
The Good:
????
Deep striking mega armor I guess?
I am just not hearing much good about the codex from ney sayers right now.
Come on Neysayers~! Gimme some glimmers of hope here!
They're better than before, however, taking pure gak and improving it by 50%... is that enough to make it any good?
10 TBs for 130 points, 3.33 hits, and then like... .75 pens against AV13 with the reroll? Within 24", in a vehicle that dies easily and takes them all with it? Same number of glances.
My math is awful these days, so those numbers are probably off... but that doesn't seem too great. I'd much rather gamble to glance it to death with Lootas. Against AV14, 6's to glance is honestly worse than being unable to glance, because it tricks you into wasting shots!
Dunno how good they are in CC v. tanks anymore. But most Orks could trash most vehicles in CC anyway.
@Vasarto: I really don't understand that post, almost nothing you said is true.
Seeming Tankbustas now don't compete for the same FOC slot as lootas, I can see them being taken.
And since they now don't have to target tanks, we have another good source of anti MEQ. Admittedly, they aren't ZOMG awesome, but they are better and more competitive.
Hmmm, that's true. but do we have other tools to do this better? tank hunter and melta bombs is pretty nice on a very fast (even if paper thin) transport.
schadenfreude wrote: Battle wagons are not thin. Upgrade one with a kill cannon and pack 12 Tankbustas in.
Battlewagons only have av 12 on the sides, have a very side-heavy profile (if you use the given kit), and cannot take riggers for IWND.
They're also going to be 110 points baseline now.
You're looking at nearing 400 points packed into that single unit, which actual dedicated anti-tank will be able to make very short work of. Orks are about target saturation.. Rolling 20% of your total points (assuming 2k points game) into one unit is anything but.
schadenfreude wrote: Battle wagons are not thin. Upgrade one with a kill cannon and pack 12 Tankbustas in.
Battlewagons only have av 12 on the sides, have a very side-heavy profile (if you use the given kit), and cannot take riggers for IWND.
They're also going to be 110 points baseline now.
You're looking at nearing 400 points packed into that single unit, which actual dedicated anti-tank will be able to make very short work of. Orks are about target saturation.. Rolling 20% of your total points (assuming 2k points game) into one unit is anything but.
schadenfreude wrote: Battle wagons are not thin. Upgrade one with a kill cannon and pack 12 Tankbustas in.
im
Give it 4 rokkits and thats 16 a turn including TB's. rokkits gallore.
Flank that with trukks with MSU Meganob units, MegaWarbosses and painboys, atleast thats what im thinking the megaboss with lucky stikks re-rolling his 2+, combined with the warlord traits and he should be one CC monster.
Even with the mob rule change target saturation is still a viable strategy imo, I have always found small MANz units in trukks either draw enough attention and dont make there points back, or are ignored and wreck face. (casual play perspective). with the fact now that we can bring a painboy, warboss and a megamek in a unit if we choose to is really nice. Although I think the megamek seems a slight waste unless its a BW, the fact the KFF is to the vehicle only makes it way to pricey for just a trukk and then after that im not sure the mek would bring anything.
I was trying to find this but I cant confirm it anywhere, are the Shokk gun and the Mega armour mutually exclusive? Can i take a shokk attack gun on mega armour?
if not then i will definitely be putting a 2+, shokk gun mek in front of my artillery units to soak up fire and dish out da pain!
HQ has warboss, painboys, big meks.
EL has tankbustas and manz FA have bikes and buggies
HS has 10 gallons of crap in a 5 gallon bucket.
Snap! We are actually sitting with a luxury problem. And I agree, I want to put every single thing into a list. Under FA you missed cheeeeap deffkoptas and stormboyz.
But... we still have the sweet backfield MVPs, the integral underwhelming workhorse of the warband, the grots. 2 units allow us to take an extra CAD.
I must confess this very morning I was reading up on CD screamers as allies for a reliable anti-tank tool. They simply deliver so well. With a potential 3++ or better screamers last longer while our boyz are still facing the leafblower trying to charge a powerfist into a vehicle. Once in combat S5 armourbane can reliably take down most threats
schadenfreude wrote: 12 In a wagon average . 4 hits. My phone is going full slow tonight please excuse format errors. anyhow that is 3 hp on av12 3.55HP on av11 2.22Hp On av13
What I'd like to see is how TBs compare to Mekgunz like Kannonz when shooting (with ammo runtz, so 1 reroll to hit per game for each gun). Also, Mel talked earlier about a KFF Big Mek in Mega-Armor with Da Lucky Stikk to have a T7 2+/5++ wall to protect your unit.
What do you people think of that list? I don't have the exact cost since I don't have the codex but, hey. An idea for starters, around 1,500 points.
HQ --- 1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB, LS) 1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB)
schadenfreude wrote: 12 In a wagon average . 4 hits.
My phone is going full slow tonight please excuse format error
anyhow that is 3 hp on av12
3.55HP on av11
2.22Hp On av13
What I'd like to see is how TBs compare to Mekgunz like Kannonz when shooting (with ammo runtz, so 1 reroll to hit per game for each gun).
Also, Mel talked earlier about a KFF Big Mek in Mega-Armor with Da Lucky Stikk to have a T7 2+/5++ wall to protect your unit.
What do you people think of that list? I don't have the exact cost since I don't have the codex but, hey. An idea for starters.
HQ ---
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB, LS)
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB)
Heavy Support
---
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Smasha Gun (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
Fortifications
---
1x Aegis Defense Line (Quadgun)
Any thoughts?
Do you know if you can take the shokk attack gun instead of the KFF? if so the 5++ seems a little pointless with the aegis line, id love to take the shokk gun instead and add more firepower to an already powerful setup.
so T7, 2+ with aegis cover 5+?
also with your list only thing i can think of is you have plenty of High Str Anti-tank from the rokkit buggies, tankbustas and smasha guns, how would you deal with more infantry based lists? what would you add?
The trukk with tankbustas seems a little out of place considering its the only trukk, id want to swap either for bikers or more buggies if it was me, as the tankbusta trukk would be first priority (12 rokkits with tank hunter is nasty - but paper thin). Why the smasha gun? D6+4 correct? average of 7, whereas the KMK is a solid 8 consistently. But then the difference is close enough that the smasha might be a whole lot more fun to run.
Waaargh wrote:Melcavuk thanks for sharing and taking your time to answer questions.
Release is gonna be orksome. We have more dakka, cheaper joy toys and more assaulting.
Remember kids - chop the shoota ones, shoot the choppy ones.
Oh and a couple of questions: Painboy is 50 pts. Big mek with KFF is same price as previous codex, korrekt? I am of course referring to what it will cost to make the durable boyz of doom
schadenfreude wrote: 12 In a wagon average . 4 hits.
My phone is going full slow tonight please excuse format error
anyhow that is 3 hp on av12
3.55HP on av11
2.22Hp On av13
What I'd like to see is how TBs compare to Mekgunz like Kannonz when shooting (with ammo runtz, so 1 reroll to hit per game for each gun).
Also, Mel talked earlier about a KFF Big Mek in Mega-Armor with Da Lucky Stikk to have a T7 2+/5++ wall to protect your unit.
What do you people think of that list? I don't have the exact cost since I don't have the codex but, hey. An idea for starters.
HQ ---
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB, LS)
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB)
Heavy Support
---
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Smasha Gun (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
Fortifications
---
1x Aegis Defense Line (Quadgun)
Any thoughts?
Do you know if you can take the shokk attack gun instead of the KFF? if so the 5++ seems a little pointless with the aegis line, id love to take the shokk gun instead and add more firepower to an already powerful setup.
so T7, 2+ with aegis cover 5+?
also with your list only thing i can think of is you have plenty of High Str Anti-tank from the rokkit buggies, tankbustas and smasha guns, how would you deal with more infantry based lists? what would you add?
The trukk with tankbustas seems a little out of place considering its the only trukk, id want to swap either for bikers or more buggies if it was me, as the tankbusta trukk would be first priority (12 rokkits with tank hunter is nasty - but paper thin). Why the smasha gun? D6+4 correct? average of 7, whereas the KMK is a solid 8 consistently. But then the difference is close enough that the smasha might be a whole lot more fun to run.
You cant combine Mega Armour and Shokk Attack gun, so you'd be losing the 2+ save.
I saw it asked earlier but couldnt find the poster to quote for their response:
KFF can be combined with a Bike
SaG can be combed with a bike!
Do you know if you can take the shokk attack gun instead of the KFF? if so the 5++ seems a little pointless with the aegis line, id love to take the shokk gun instead and add more firepower to an already powerful setup. so T7, 2+ with aegis cover 5+?
also with your list only thing i can think of is you have plenty of High Str Anti-tank from the rokkit buggies, tankbustas and smasha guns, how would you deal with more infantry based lists? what would you add? The trukk with tankbustas seems a little out of place considering its the only trukk, id want to swap either for bikers or more buggies if it was me, as the tankbusta trukk would be first priority (12 rokkits with tank hunter is nasty - but paper thin). Why the smasha gun? D6+4 correct? average of 7, whereas the KMK is a solid 8 consistently. But then the difference is close enough that the smasha might be a whole lot more fun to run.
The core of this army would be to rely on buggies, kannonz and KFF Meks. I didn't think about SAG, I guess it could be fun But the Big Mek would have a risk to roll poorly and not be able to protect the gunz anymore.
ADL could be useful to protect either gunz (5+ cover) or grotz (no LoS) and have BS3 for Quadgun. I'm not sure though... I like the sound of Smasha Gun, avg. S7-8 with AP1 so +2 modifier to blow up tanks easily in one turn. But Traktor Kannonz are now the way to go against flyers and flying MCs, so... I guess you could use Quadgun-ADL with 5x Traktorz to have one hell of an anti-flyer platform. Maybe too costy, though!
As for infantry units, you can use frag Kanons (S5 AP5 Blast) to good effect. Maybe I could give Skorchas to one unit of Buggies, too?
Yeah, Tankbustas don't seem like a good option, but all FA and HS slots were already taken and I had ~150 points left. I'd like to stay with a single FOC, maybe by adding a third HQ: a third Big Mek - definitely no Painboy because of grotz.
Now that tankbustaz have the tank hunters USR and their bommz are basically melta bombs they sound really good. A unit of 15 bustaz in a trukk is cheaper than a land raider but can reliably kill it in close combat. Hell, bustaz can take on imperial knights! I2 is pretty bad, but most of the knight's damage will come from its stomp and melta bombs are used before that...
I'll probably fill my elite slots in my upcoming green tide with bustaz. Their rokkits are good against transports and can kill MEQ reliably and they can take on pretty much any vehicle in close combat. Plus, I have a neat idea for a conversion.
Green iz best!
EDIT: I've also been thinking about that ork warband formation, the one that lets you Waaagh! every turn after the first. I'd probably get 6 mobs of 30 slugga boyz (because green tide!) and 3 mobs of 10 grotz each to give the boyz cover. The rest of my points I'd fill up by taking as many PK nobz in the mandatory nobz mob as possible - stick the warboss, a mekboy with killsaw (for an extra, armourbane PK), a painboy and a KFF big mek in there and you're good to go! I don't know how effective that would be, but I wouldn't even care at that point! Waaaghin' all day, every day!
I strongly disagree that flash Gitz are rubbish. I've run them as try out and they're awesome. Loads of dakka and near enough a 50% chance of flooring a 10 man squad a turn. Nothing to be sneezed at
office_waaagh wrote:
The mob rule has been changed, sure, but whether it's been nerfed or rendered unusable I think is still to be decided. I always thought that fearless was a bit of a cop-out; Tyranids are fearless because they have no minds of their own and are slaves at the synaptic level. The change to the mob rule differentiates them a little better and makes the army more characterful, a couple of wounds on a failed morale check isn't much price for that. (And, strictly speaking, it was the bosspole that got nerfed rather than the mob rule). Being subject to morale checks isn't exactly getting screwed, it's the same thing other armies have to put up with, and at least we have a mob rule to help us stick around.
The difference here is that other armies a) have ways to mitigate their Ld issues, and b) usually have higher Ld.
IG: Every sergeant is as disciplined as a space marine, officers can tell people to stop being crybabies, commissars provide stubborn.
Tau: Ethereals make your whole firebase operate at Ld10.
Nids: Fearless until they're losing.
Marines of all stripes get ATSKNF Daemons pretty much ignore morale until they're in combat
Necrons get Ld10 across the board
So, who exactly are the armies that have to put up with morale checks? Chaos marines, Eldar/dEldar and Orks? And of these, Dark Eldar are typically Ld8 with Ld9 sgts, Chaos have one unit (cultists) at Ld7, and even they get a Ld8 sgt, and eldar civilians are Ld8, with all their trained warriors at 9. Orks alone have Ld7 units without the ability to have a higher Ld upgrade character (unless this changed, but I haven't seen that listed in the lists I've read). So, yeah, the change to Mob Rule is a nerf, and a fairly significant one. And I don't see 'fearless' being a cop-out on models like Meganobs, which cost 40 points/model.
For all the doom and gloom, look at all we get. We can get 5 large blasts with a 50/50 chance to get ap3 or better, or 5 s8 ap2 blasts, or the best AAA in the game, for just 150 points;
Do you think that if I wanted to play a long-distance shooty army that orks are the one that would come to mind? I'm not sure you grasp the appeal of an ork army if you think that we should be excited about our artillery options.
we can re-roll a die for charge distance, increasing our effective charge range by 1.5 inches on average, which can be further boosted by boarding planks;
Can we still take planks on battlewagons? Because trukks are awful in a hull-point world and have been for a while. I'm not sure an extra 1.5" is enough. The last few times I've played my green tide, we haven't made it into charge range - shooting is just too effective when casualties are pulled from the front.
a WAAAGH! let's you run before charging, for an average 17" charge range (and that's without a boarding plank or vehicle; that brings it up to a mind-shattering 25" AVERAGE charge range!); KFF gives an invul now and can't be negated by "ignores cover"; painboyz can give any unit FnP, including MANz;
These seem nice. I'm not sure if they're enough. KFF covers considerably fewer models, and as someone else pointed out, paying for a painboy to provide FnP may not actually be any better than paying for more boyz.
Burna boyz and tankbustas can take a trukk, and almost every unit and unit upgrade got cheaper.
Being able to take a trukk in the current environment is a cute option, but has zero impact on how an army plays. Trukks are awful. Tell me about how the shoota boyz got cheaper again? The slugga boyz? The units that got cheaper are the ones that will be more affected by losing mob rule.
Honestly, the mob rule change isn't going to be a huge problem in practice and the loss of an invul hurts but can be mitigated fairly easily.
Really? How do you do that? You get your boyz into combat, and your warboss gets challenged. Without an invul, he gets punked by a lot of things before he even gets to swing. I suppose you can mitigate this fair easy by having him cower in the back and not fight.
Heavy support and HQ are crowded, sure, but "there's so much awesome stuff that I can't take it all" is a pretty good problem to have. All in all, we've gained far, FAR more than we've lost. I've played orks for nearly 20 years, and this is probably the best codex we've ever had.
Do you actually have the codex? Because I have a hard time believing this. The Speed Freek list from 3rd ed is still the standard as far as I'm concerned.
The lack of Invul on the boss is incredibly irritating, but between mega armour and the Headwhompas Choppa relic (Str+2, Rending, Decapitating strike, AP5), and enough attacks at Init 4 you stand a decent chance of rending, and since both rending and decapitating strike happen on a 6 to wound if you rend you also instant death. So thats atleast something right? Most of the stuff that ignores youre 2+ is striking last, so get in with enough attacks and you have a reasonable chance.
I assume that it's two-handed and replaces a weapon, so you're wasting the power klaw you get for free on the mega-armour (assuming that still works the same).
Still, actually being able to use the Warboss' initiative will be nice.
It doesnt replace a weapon because its a relic, though it is a two handed weapon you essentially keep your twinlinked shoota, klaw and gain the relic aswell (nothing states it replaces stuff).
Also its 20 Points
Gives you a choice between striking last with the klaw or at initiative with the relic choppa (also its a bit khornate in fluff, who wouldnt love that)
So you could go:
Warboss, Mega Armour, Headwhompas Choppas, Da Lucky Stikk (145)
Or Warboss, Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Da Lucky Stikk (140)
Second option doesnt come with the klaw or 2+, but does come with twinlinked AP3 shooting, higher toughness and a 18 inch turbo boost (3+ jink). Put the lucky this on both options since rerolling failed hits/wounds hoping for a rend is useful.
Vasarto wrote: So, from what I have seen so far from myself and comments from others.
The Bad and Terrible:
Wazdakka and Oldzogwart removed: They were removed because no one used them, because they were badly designed and none of the codex was built to make a good army for them.
Wazdakka was quite popular, judging by the many fans and fearmongering before the codex leaked. They were removed because GW removes everything without it's own model.
Flash Gits - We finally get a flashgitz models and the rules for them are complete trash.
We finally got decent Flash Gitz models and the rules have been tuned to make them actually a viable option instead of overpriced trash.
Other than an actual model for it which many say looks terrible, The Looted Wagon has almost the exact same Terrible rules as it did before.
A model for the Looted Wagon? Come again?!
Instead of lowering the cost of Lootas and Tank Bustas, They thought it was a good idea to increase their already almost land raider cost even higher.
Lootas are cheaper, Tank Bustas I think too. Tank Bustas lost their detrimental glory hogs and gained a usefull Tank hunters.
Waagh is ruined.
Because it was oh-so-strong in 6th to begin with...
Waagh is slightly better.
Come again?
GHAZ IS NERFED!!! WTF?! Ghazzy was our only viable option for a HQ after 1850 points! The moment a list takes anyone else after that and our whole army collapses. wtf?
They never nurfed the HQ's from the other armies from older codexes. In fact they got stronger and even more powerful. Plus ghazzy is an Warhammer 40k Icon...so why?
Ghaz got his place as a Lord of War, an incarnation of orky destruction, on par with a superheavy or a Primarch. I'd say it's more than fitting.
Stormboys can assault flyers apparently
Which was denied about...15 times in the last 10 pages....
I think the codex is overall decent. It does not create any ripserpentdrakes and there are no pyrovores neither. Internal ballance is good for a start. That means, if there will be some more codices with a similar power level, that will offer a lot of game variety and good matches.
Sure, some things could be better - loss of Wazdakka and Zogwort, some viable invul-saves, interesting rules for looted wagons instead of bland "open-top-transport-with-a-gun-maybe".
It could even become great by adding actual klan tactics, but it's GW, so all we're gonna see will be some boring supplement on that red waaagh-guyboss. Probably the perfect combination of Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements - bland generic specialties (Nobz become troops or some sort of skarboyz with +1 S or something) mixed with a background nobody gives a damn about instead of focussing on the existing clans or characters.
But the codex as it comes seems to be not too bad. Specifically, I don't understand the whine about a crowded FOC slot. If it's crowded, it means, there is a lot of choice and you can tune your army to what you want to do with them. Much better than "take unit X. all the others are a waste of points and suck all around".
Melcavuk wrote: It doesnt replace a weapon because its a relic, though it is a two handed weapon you essentially keep your twinlinked shoota, klaw and gain the relic aswell (nothing states it replaces stuff).
Also its 20 Points
Gives you a choice between striking last with the klaw or at initiative with the relic choppa (also its a bit khornate in fluff, who wouldnt love that)
So you could go:
Warboss, Mega Armour, Headwhompas Choppas, Da Lucky Stikk (145)
Or Warboss, Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Da Lucky Stikk (140)
Second option doesnt come with the klaw or 2+, but does come with twinlinked AP3 shooting, higher toughness and a 18 inch turbo boost (3+ jink). Put the lucky this on both options since rerolling failed hits/wounds hoping for a rend is useful.
And none of it matters because you will get utterly destroyed by an Iron Hand's Chapter Master on Bike. /sigh.
If we're using the "Can beat Iron Hands Chapter Master on Bike" yard stick then yes it sucks, but as a HQ choice its not bad for the rest of the games you arent facing that build.
If you put a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and 19 Ork Boyz inside a Battlewagon, and the Battlewagon explodes, would the Big Mek and Ork Boyz get an invulnerable save?
Unless I'm wrong, Waaagghh was returned to what it did in 5th Ed, but needs a warboss to be used. It'd say that's a buff, or at least a de-nerf.
Tankbusters are now not totally terrible at killing vehicles, although they can't explode a vehicle from range, only hope for a double immobilized or glance to death, and tankbusta bombs are now full blown meltabombs (really GW, you couldn't make an orky profile for them? I'm not really complaining, it's just that I didn't expect it to happen, at all) so in combat they will likely take as many, or more, points in casualties as the enemy vehicle is worth, due to the explodes result. They are also pretty rubbish at killing MEQ too, a boy with a big shoota is more cost efficient, has a longer range, and is better in every way once cover is factored in.
However, they are stupid good at killing MCs now. They were good when they could before, but now its been turned up to 11. Tyranids, fear for your armies, TMCbustas will now actually see the tabletop.
The first time a Daemon Prince gets tankhammered with S10 AP3, the lulz will reverberate through the heavens.
Zog Off wrote: If you put a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and 19 Ork Boyz inside a Battlewagon, and the Battlewagon explodes, would the Big Mek and Ork Boyz get an invulnerable save?
When does the Big Mek stop being embarked?
Good question. I was wondering that myself. Can they take the 5++ save against the hits from the explodes result? I guess someone will have to unpick the steps and confirm at what stage they count as being disembarked.
Luke_Prowler wrote: We know that the Waaagh! is now warboss specific, so I had a few questions abou that:
Are Waagh!s one per game or one per warboss? Could an Ork army have more than one Waagh! besides using the special FOC chart?
Does a Waagh! affect the entire army, or only the detachment the warboss is in?
In the special ork FOC chart, it lets you Waagh! each turn, but do you still need a warboss in the detachment in order to use it?
and an off question: do weirdboyz shooting attacks have the same "automaticly hits" rule like the ones in the 4th edition codex?
Those are really good questions can some one please answer those. I would like to know the answer to these too.
+Is speed freaks still viable? with the new mob rule?
lots of truks full of slugga boyz?
The Waaagh ability can only be used by a Warboss who is your Warlord, therefore its once per game because you only get one warlord.
The ork FORMATION lets its warboss waaagh every turn, not the FoC, has to be used by the warboss in the formation, he has to be your warlord.
A roll of 1 on the Warlord chart gives a non-warboss the ability to call a Waaagh.
All friendly units made up entirely of models with the "ere we go" rules benefit in a waaagh, so will effect all detachments
Weird boy shooting attacks vary, the witchfires need to roll to hit, the beam is a beam, the template is a template and so on and so forth.
Since you arent looking to run fearless mobs anymore trukk boys are now not so much worse than large mobs, so its viable.
Buggies are cheap and awesome so a speed freak army is cool.
Exploding vehicle means the unit take the hits, then survivors are placed where the vehicle used to be. So by RAW I'd say they are still embarked when they take the hits, as they have yet to be deployed back onto the table.
Zog Off wrote: If you put a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and 19 Ork Boyz inside a Battlewagon, and the Battlewagon explodes, would the Big Mek and Ork Boyz get an invulnerable save?
When does the Big Mek stop being embarked?
Isn't it irrelevant since the KFF only works against shooting and exploding vehicles aren't shooting?
I didn't think about SAG, I guess it could be fun But the Big Mek would have a risk to roll poorly and not be able to protect the gunz anymore.
That is a risk, and the mek will only be able to take charge of one battery, in a list that doesnt go full gunline. Still this is where I plan to plant my mek, with some mek gunz which mesh with the SAG (likely smasha gunz).
ADL could be useful to protect either gunz (5+ cover) or grotz (no LoS) and have BS3 for Quadgun. I'm not sure though...
I thought the ADL still would provide a 4+ cover save. Anyways for an ork list with lots of dakka the ADL is adding a lot of protection = winning the gunfight.
I like the sound of Smasha Gun, avg. S7-8 with AP1 so +2 modifier to blow up tanks easily in one turn.
But that is not how it works. It's not a case of average, they roll individually and with 5 there is a good chance some of them will fire off high strength beams, which is what you need to put a dent into the front of a russ or similar.
But Traktor Kannonz are now the way to go against flyers and flying MCs, so...
Agreed, in the same breath I will say orks need something to use against heavy armour. Flyers have not been much of an issue for the boyz. Armoured tanks have been an issue.
As for infantry units, you can use frag Kanons (S5 AP5 Blast) to good effect. Maybe I could give Skorchas to one unit of Buggies, too?
Do you have the luxury to take traktor kannonz and kannonz? Other stuff in the armoury can shoot infantry.
Warboss, Mega Armour, Headwhompas Choppas, Da Lucky Stikk (145)
Or Warboss, Warboss Gazbag’s Blitzbike, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Da Lucky Stikk (140)
Second option doesnt come with the klaw or 2+, but does come with twinlinked AP3 shooting, higher toughness and a 18 inch turbo boost (3+ jink). Put the lucky this on both options since rerolling failed hits/wounds hoping for a rend is useful.
You want an attack squig there won't you?
And thanks for the answer
Melcavuk wrote: The Waaagh ability can only be used by a Warboss who is your Warlord, therefore its once per game because you only get one warlord.
The ork FORMATION lets its warboss waaagh every turn, not the FoC, has to be used by the warboss in the formation, he has to be your warlord.
A roll of 1 on the Warlord chart gives a non-warboss the ability to call a Waaagh.
All friendly units made up entirely of models with the "ere we go" rules benefit in a waaagh, so will effect all detachments
Ork formation + CAD here I come!
Weird boy shooting attacks vary, the witchfires need to roll to hit, the beam is a beam, the template is a template and so on and so forth.
Not so hot. He can't hit anything more than... any other ork can hit a barndoor.
Zog Off wrote: If you put a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and 19 Ork Boyz inside a Battlewagon, and the Battlewagon explodes, would the Big Mek and Ork Boyz get an invulnerable save?
When does the Big Mek stop being embarked?
Isn't it irrelevant since the KFF only works against shooting and exploding vehicles aren't shooting?
Depends on wording... What is the actual wording used?
I'm just trying to figure out the least expensive, least deadly way to get Ork Boyz to objectives - units of 30 Ork Boyz on foot or units of 20 Ork Boyz in a Battlewagon.
The thought of running Battlewagons without Kustom Force Fields gives me so much anxiety, but, with the 7th edition rules, we would have to buy one KFF per Battlewagon. That's expensive if you want to buy enough Battlewagon for target saturation!
I was trying to see if there were other benefits, like keeping the Ork Boyz safe when the Battlewagon explodes. If Perfect Organism is right about the wording, the answer seems to be "no."
Weird boy only has 2 powers that are rolling to hit and one thats a blast. Obviously beam just hits and template does templatey stuff.
Attack Squig isnt needed with Da Lukky Stikk, squig gives a single reroll, Stick gives rerolls to wound, hit or saves, just dont fail 3 rerolls
KFF: The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks. If the bearer is embarked in a vehicle, then the vehicle receives a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks instead
Zog Off wrote: I'm just trying to figure out the least expensive, least deadly way to get Ork Boyz to objectives - units of 30 Ork Boyz on foot or units of 20 Ork Boyz in a Battlewagon.
The thought of running Battlewagons without Kustom Force Fields gives me so much anxiety, but, with the 7th edition rules, we would have to buy one KFF per Battlewagon. That's expensive if you want to buy enough Battlewagon for target saturation!
I was trying to see if there were other benefits, like keeping the Ork Boyz safe when the Battlewagon explodes. If Perfect Organism is right about the wording, the answer seems to be "no."
How about trukks? If you just want boyz to get to an objective, that's the way to go. The extra speed means you are more likely to reach some sort of cover, so that's more likely to get your ladz into capping position than a slow footslogging mob or a fire-magnet of a battlewagon.
Attack Squig isnt needed with Da Lukky Stikk, squig gives a single reroll, Stick gives rerolls to wound, hit or saves, just dont fail 3 rerolls
i dont get that... you can reroll a wound, hit OR save. so that's ONE reroll per turn, how am i supposed to fail three times in a turn?
No you can choose to reroll ANY failed hits, wounds or saves (with this model). If however 3 of these rerolls fail again you are removed as a casualty.
Well, that confirms that. If the name of the game in 7th edition is getting those objectives secured, what would be the most survivable way of getting Troops onto objectives and staying on those objectives long enough to secure them?
A 30-strong unit of Ork Boyz on foot with a Kustom Force Field Big Mek and Painboy is pretty durable, but it's also pretty slow. I feel like they would take more hits getting to an objective, but would they be more likely to survive those hits?
A 20-strong unit of Ork Boyz in a Battlewagon with a Kustom Force Field Big Mek can get to objectives faster, so they would take less hits getting to an objective, but they are less durable without the Painboy. Also, that thing that makes them faster can kill them.
Thoughts, opinions? Ork Boyz in a Trukk is also an option, but I don't feel like 12 Ork Boyz have enough staying power to secure an objective.
Bearing in mind that all units are now scoring (its just troops have objective secured), so units like Kans can be a reslient way of holding a back objective, 15 strong biker units can jink their way up on further objectives (same with 30 strong stormboyz units). Kommandos can outflank onto backfield objectives and use their steath to boost cover saves etc.
Thoughts, opinions? Ork Boyz in a Trukk is also an option, but I don't feel like 12 Ork Boyz have enough staying power to secure an objective.
12 'ard boyz with shootas. That's still 3 attacks on a charge or a nice hail of overwatch when being charged. 4+ isn't too great, but does the job against Bolters at least. Also, that trukk can be used as vis-blocker, 30 pts ain't too much for a mobile wall and as long as it's not exploding, it's a nice brick in the LOS.
Melcavuk, I'd like to ask you about Grotsnik. I've read in the collected leaked info post that the good doctor confers Fearless, Rampage and Feel no Pain. Could you tell a bit more about him? Like stat changes, wargear and armour, level of FnP, those sort of things. It would be absolutely spiffing if you would!
Waaargh wrote: That is a risk, and the mek will only be able to take charge of one battery, in a list that doesnt go full gunline. Still this is where I plan to plant my mek, with some mek gunz which mesh with the SAG (likely smasha gunz).
I thought the ADL still would provide a 4+ cover save. Anyways for an ork list with lots of dakka the ADL is adding a lot of protection = winning the gunfight.
But that is not how it works. It's not a case of average, they roll individually and with 5 there is a good chance some of them will fire off high strength beams, which is what you need to put a dent into the front of a russ or similar.
Agreed, in the same breath I will say orks need something to use against heavy armour. Flyers have not been much of an issue for the boyz. Armoured tanks have been an issue.
Do you have the luxury to take traktor kannonz and kannonz? Other stuff in the armoury can shoot infantry.
Agreed, ADL should grant a 4+ cover save. It's a great option to protect some of the Mekgunz, even without Quadgun. I still need to figure out if the point cost is worth the investment when you already have KFF bubbles for 2+/5++ rerollable saves. Armoured tanks were an issue but the Codex seems to offer lots of options to deal with that, including Smasha Gunz; but are you sure they roll individually? Don't you roll once for Str for all the battery each turn? Also, I think Mel pointed out you can't have both Mega-Armour and SAG on your Big Mek, but KFF is allowed. You want more protection against shooting for your precious gunz.
My cousin used to play IG with Vendettas, so flyers remain a threat. I wonder if replacing Smasha Gunz with Traktor Kannonz would be best, because my buggies can deal with other tanks thanks to outflank. I yet have to decied something about that, too.
I don't understand what you're getting at with your last sentence. Kannons are dirt cheap, that's what allows you to have so much resilient firepower along with 15x Buggies in a sub-1500-point army. Yes, other stuff can shoot infantry, but 10x S5 blasts per turn sounds good enough to me. Plus you can reroll to hit once per game. I'd love to see Flashgitz in here too, they look fantastic, but they are costy HS choices because they need to be embarked and protected. I want to spam my ennemy with S8-10 shots while being able to have S5 blasts again infantry.
Melcavuk, I'd like to ask you about Grotsnik. I've read in the collected leaked info post that the good doctor confers Fearless, Rampage and Feel no Pain. Could you tell a bit more about him? Like stat changes, wargear and armour, level of FnP, those sort of things. It would be absolutely spiffing if you would!
His points cost and stats are identical to the previous codex with the exception that his cybork body now gives 6+ fnp not an invul, which is rendered useless by his docs tools giving 5+ FNP. The FNP he confers on the unit is the standard 5+, he also confers fearless and rampage on the unit he joins.
he has his Urty syringe, cant take grot helpers (so from a FNP point of view worse than a painboy), and a power klaw and slugga.
For his cost I'd say 3 painboys are more worthwhile (each has 1 less wound than him and lower WS but you're using them for FNP, and then can take orderlies.
Melcavuk, I'd like to ask you about Grotsnik. I've read in the collected leaked info post that the good doctor confers Fearless, Rampage and Feel no Pain. Could you tell a bit more about him? Like stat changes, wargear and armour, level of FnP, those sort of things. It would be absolutely spiffing if you would!
His points cost and stats are identical to the previous codex with the exception that his cybork body now gives 6+ fnp not an invul, which is rendered useless by his docs tools giving 5+ FNP. The FNP he confers on the unit is the standard 5+, he also confers fearless and rampage on the unit he joins.
he has his Urty syringe, cant take grot helpers (so from a FNP point of view worse than a painboy), and a power klaw and slugga.
For his cost I'd say 3 painboys are more worthwhile (each has 1 less wound than him and lower WS but you're using them for FNP, and then can take orderlies.
Thank you. The collected leaked info post seems to be missing the 'Urty syringe rules, wotz it do?
Catching up on reading the background, liked this part of Badrukks history "Some even claim that the Kaptin personally brought down a Freeblade Knight armed with nought but a hair squig and several inebriated Snotling"
Melcavuk, I'd like to ask you about Grotsnik. I've read in the collected leaked info post that the good doctor confers Fearless, Rampage and Feel no Pain. Could you tell a bit more about him? Like stat changes, wargear and armour, level of FnP, those sort of things. It would be absolutely spiffing if you would!
His points cost and stats are identical to the previous codex with the exception that his cybork body now gives 6+ fnp not an invul, which is rendered useless by his docs tools giving 5+ FNP. The FNP he confers on the unit is the standard 5+, he also confers fearless and rampage on the unit he joins.
he has his Urty syringe, cant take grot helpers (so from a FNP point of view worse than a painboy), and a power klaw and slugga.
For his cost I'd say 3 painboys are more worthwhile (each has 1 less wound than him and lower WS but you're using them for FNP, and then can take orderlies.
Thank you. The collected leaked info post seems to be missing the 'Urty syringe rules, wotz it do?
4+ Poison, AP -
adamsouza wrote:Are there pics of the Relics in the Book ?
I
nope sorry, just descriptions of them really and their background.
That's what I thought, thanks. Don't suppose I can bug you for the LD values they have? Trying to compile the math on old Mob Rule vs New. Annoyingly large number of variables to consider, especially with the new rule.
KFF: The bearer, and all models within 6", receive a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks. If the bearer is embarked in a vehicle, then the vehicle receives a 5+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks instead
If so, Badrukk seems like a fairly nice way to keep elite shooty units from running and Zagstruk might be the solution to Deffkoptas leadership issues.
It's OK to put a jump infantry character in a jetbike unit in 7th, right? That's how the Baron works in the Seer-star, isn't it?
I am quite excited about the new codex as it seems much more internally balanced. I feel a lot of the naysayers posting here are looking at units in isolation and not the army as a whole. Sure the "old" army builds of Lootas, Nob Bikers, MANZ trukks, and BW rush won't hold up as well but I didn't like having to "always" take these units to be viable.
The new codex provides a lot of opportunities to work-in previously under used units, add in new units, and make for an overall balanced and sustained attack. With the drop in prices of the Deffkoptas, Buggies, Tank Bustas, Killkannon, and increased dedicated transports, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz, Pain Boyz, and a viable Weirdboy, there will be a lot of army builds with viable threats in the back-ield, midfield, and front lines to challenges an opponent.
If so, Badrukk seems like a fairly nice way to keep elite shooty units from running and Zagstruk might be the solution to Deffkoptas leadership issues.
It's OK to put a jump infantry character in a jetbike unit in 7th, right? That's how the Baron works in the Seer-star, isn't it?
Melcavuk wrote: Boss is 9, Big Mek is 8. Everyone else is 7 except grots.
Sorry, one last question. I see that Gitz all have bosspoles automatically, do other units have to buy them or get them automatically also? Trying to figure out if I need to separate rows for "Character w/ Bosspole" and "Character w/o Bosspole".
So he gets his 1 or 2 WC based on his mastery, the usual D6 and another one for 10 'ere we go-models in his vicinity but must take a Ld-test or suffer a wound? Can you elaborate please? Does he get 1 WC for every 10 models or just once? Does he have to roll every time or just once?
Everyone else has to pay for them, and units that cant take a nob dont have access to boss poles (looking at lootas and burnas here specifically)
Working it out Flash Gitz are actually really good value. They're basically a Nob (18 Points), with a boss pole (5 points) and they gain Git Findas (5 points) and Snazz Guns. Even if you feel the snazz gun is a fair swap for the slugga/choppa you're still essentially getting 28 points of kit on a 22 point model.
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Kosake wrote: A little clarification on the weirdboy please.
So he gets his 1 or 2 WC based on his mastery, the usual D6 and another one for 10 'ere we go-models in his vicinity but must take a Ld-test or suffer a wound? Can you elaborate please? Does he get 1 WC for every 10 models or just once? Does he have to roll every time or just once?
Just once, if there are ten or more models with ere we go nearby.
If he generates this charge, and doesnt successfully cast a power he takes a str 2 HIT (not wound).
Generating this additional charge isnt a choice, if there are more than 10 models with ere we go nearby it generates.
Melcavuk wrote: Everyone else has to pay for them, and units that cant take a nob dont have access to boss poles (looking at lootas and burnas here specifically)
With an overall lean towards a dread mob styled list im actually considering using a reasonable amount of grots, cheap, expendable and with a few units il have enough that I can swamp a few midfield objectives. I dont expect them to with stand more than a glare, but with the rest of my force dealing with the enemy hopefully shooting or assulting the grots will simply be favourable to me in that my other units survive. I can then run smaller shoota boys units to move and sit on objectives.
Although i thought the use of a trukk as a speedy get-to objective, then turning it into a LOS blocker an effective use.
Waaargh wrote: That is a risk, and the mek will only be able to take charge of one battery, in a list that doesnt go full gunline. Still this is where I plan to plant my mek, with some mek gunz which mesh with the SAG (likely smasha gunz).
I thought the ADL still would provide a 4+ cover save. Anyways for an ork list with lots of dakka the ADL is adding a lot of protection = winning the gunfight.
But that is not how it works. It's not a case of average, they roll individually and with 5 there is a good chance some of them will fire off high strength beams, which is what you need to put a dent into the front of a russ or similar.
Agreed, in the same breath I will say orks need something to use against heavy armour. Flyers have not been much of an issue for the boyz. Armoured tanks have been an issue.
Do you have the luxury to take traktor kannonz and kannonz? Other stuff in the armoury can shoot infantry.
Agreed, ADL should grant a 4+ cover save. It's a great option to protect some of the Mekgunz, even without Quadgun. I still need to figure out if the point cost is worth the investment when you already have KFF bubbles for 2+/5++ rerollable saves. Armoured tanks were an issue but the Codex seems to offer lots of options to deal with that, including Smasha Gunz; but are you sure they roll individually? Don't you roll once for Str for all the battery each turn? Also, I think Mel pointed out you can't have both Mega-Armour and SAG on your Big Mek, but KFF is allowed. You want more protection against shooting for your precious gunz.
My cousin used to play IG with Vendettas, so flyers remain a threat. I wonder if replacing Smasha Gunz with Traktor Kannonz would be best, because my buggies can deal with other tanks thanks to outflank. I yet have to decied something about that, too.
I don't understand what you're getting at with your last sentence. Kannons are dirt cheap, that's what allows you to have so much resilient firepower along with 15x Buggies in a sub-1500-point army. Yes, other stuff can shoot infantry, but 10x S5 blasts per turn sounds good enough to me. Plus you can reroll to hit once per game. I'd love to see Flashgitz in here too, they look fantastic, but they are costy HS choices because they need to be embarked and protected. I want to spam my ennemy with S8-10 shots while being able to have S5 blasts again infantry.
I can see my last sentence was not well written. It was directed at general list building more than your actual list, and I sorta assumed you had brought along a good number of traktor kannonz (3 to 5 gunz). To continue along that line of thought I'd like - and would suggest others - to bring 5 smasha kannonz and a number of traktor kannonz, who can also target skimmers (eldars, necrons, tau) and stop them from delivering scoring units. In your list the number of kannonz seems like overkill and I wonder if the 3rd HS could be replaced with something else that is better against infantry, since your FA is focused at scoring and targeting armour.
The beauty of going full mek gun-line is the opponent will just try to ignore them as targets and thereby let them keep firing. The downside is the buggies are now prime targets, and the few grots will suffer a lot of casualties.
Do the HQ characters have fixed warlord traits and, if so, which ones?
Boss poles on Flash Gits are mostly worthless though, aren't they? Only the Kaptin actually benefits from having one, so it's more like one free bosspole per mob and a bunch of decorations. EDIT: it might be useful if you put a painboy in the mob and then the kaptin gets killed, assuming painboys don't have bosspoles.
Melcavuk, I'd like to ask you about Grotsnik. I've read in the collected leaked info post that the good doctor confers Fearless, Rampage and Feel no Pain. Could you tell a bit more about him? Like stat changes, wargear and armour, level of FnP, those sort of things. It would be absolutely spiffing if you would!
His points cost and stats are identical to the previous codex with the exception that his cybork body now gives 6+ fnp not an invul, which is rendered useless by his docs tools giving 5+ FNP. The FNP he confers on the unit is the standard 5+, he also confers fearless and rampage on the unit he joins.
he has his Urty syringe, cant take grot helpers (so from a FNP point of view worse than a painboy), and a power klaw and slugga.
For his cost I'd say 3 painboys are more worthwhile (each has 1 less wound than him and lower WS but you're using them for FNP, and then can take orderlies.
Wait, he gives rampageto theentire unit, and doesn't just have it himself?
Karl Hammer wrote: I am quite excited about the new codex as it seems much more internally balanced. I feel a lot of the naysayers posting here are looking at units in isolation and not the army as a whole. Sure the "old" army builds of Lootas, Nob Bikers, MANZ trukks, and BW rush won't hold up as well but I didn't like having to "always" take these units to be viable.
The new codex provides a lot of opportunities to work-in previously under used units, add in new units, and make for an overall balanced and sustained attack. With the drop in prices of the Deffkoptas, Buggies, Tank Bustas, Killkannon, and increased dedicated transports, Flash Gitz, Mek Gunz, Pain Boyz, and a viable Weirdboy, there will be a lot of army builds with viable threats in the back-ield, midfield, and front lines to challenges an opponent.
The problem is, internal balance means very little if external balance is terrible. Sure, 3rd edition demon hunter hunter book may have had great internal balance because it only had like 5 units.. but it was one of the god-awful worst armies because it sucked.
He confers it to himself and the entire unit, however he doesnt have the actual rampage rule, both come from his "one scalpel sort of a medpack" rule that confers to him and the unit.
Melcavuk wrote: Slugga Boyz are 6 points each, the saving is that they come with Stikkbombs automatically.
Shootas are a +1 upgrade that must be taken by whole squad.
Trukks only have the 6+ downgrade a pen to glance rule, nothing else.
Hm, okay. Thanks.
That's a bummer, I liked my trukks flying all over the place.
Though i could still use the ramshackle table in a friendly game, the S4 hits do bother me more.
Though I'll have to wait for the codex to make a final call, I think my standard lists need some tweeking.
I'm still on the fence about this codex. The codex may have brought orks into 7th edition, but its doing so by making them more shooty (which, even though goes with the trend of the game, goes AGAINST MY preferred style).
As an ork player who enjoys playing the speed freek "trukk rush" style, I haven't seen a lot to address CC shortfalls of the old codex and 7th ed rules:
1. overwatch still there
2. low initiative- orks may have finally gotten stikk bombs back to get rid of the penalty to initiative during assaults in cover but they're still attacking after a lot of races. Which means a lot of dead orks dont hit anything.
Hey the waaagh rule sounds great...move + fleet of foot + charge, (if im understanding it rightr) but the 2 points I mentioned above are still there. Also, with loss of fearless, ork staying power has dropped.
Except for the new 7th edition vehicle rules, trukks and the small units of boyz in them still will have the problems they've had in 6th edition. Is KFF gonna help?
Hopefully, discussing about these points can swing me one way or the other. Maybe I'm not seeing or missed something.
Phydox wrote: I'm still on the fence about this codex. The codex may have brought orks into 7th edition, but its doing so by making them more shooty (which, even though goes with the trend of the game, goes AGAINST MY preferred style).
As an ork player who enjoys playing the speed freek "trukk rush" style, I haven't seen a lot to address CC shortfalls of the old codex and 7th ed rules:
1. overwatch still there
2. low initiative- orks may have finally gotten stikk bombs back to get rid of the penalty to initiative during assaults in cover but they're still attacking after a lot of races. Which means a lot of dead orks dont hit anything.
Hey the waaagh rule sounds great...move + fleet of foot + charge, (if im understanding it rightr) but the 2 points I mentioned above are still there. Also, with loss of fearless, ork staying power has dropped.
Except for the new 7th edition vehicle rules, trukks and the small units of boyz in them still will have the problems they've had in 6th edition. Is KFF gonna help?
Hopefully, discussing about these points can swing me one way or the other. Maybe I'm not seeing or missed something.
That's what I'm hung up on too.
I usually run 4 trukks (though with shootaboys inside) and a bw with a bigmek inside accompanied either by 19 more shoota/slugga boys or burnaboys.
With regular boys you now lose half of 'em in the definate explosion and then probably some more during the green mob shenanigans, which leaves you at not much.
Thankfully I have half of my shoota and slugga boys kitted out with some plates so I can try how those will do.
If so, Badrukk seems like a fairly nice way to keep elite shooty units from running and Zagstruk might be the solution to Deffkoptas leadership issues.
It's OK to put a jump infantry character in a jetbike unit in 7th, right? That's how the Baron works in the Seer-star, isn't it?
This would be rad! I don't know if it would be rad enough to pay the points to do it, but it would be rad!
They should have given the Big Mek and option to take a Deffkopta.
Melcavuk wrote: He confers it to himself and the entire unit, however he doesnt have the actual rampage rule, both come from his "one scalpel sort of a medpack" rule that confers to him and the unit.
If so, Badrukk seems like a fairly nice way to keep elite shooty units from running and Zagstruk might be the solution to Deffkoptas leadership issues.
It's OK to put a jump infantry character in a jetbike unit in 7th, right? That's how the Baron works in the Seer-star, isn't it?
This would be rad! I don't know if it would be rad enough to pay the points to do it, but it would be rad!
They should have given the Big Mek and option to take a Deffkopta.
I got excited because I read the wargear section first which has Rokkit Packs in the Ork Know-wots section, and thought they could be taken by big meks/warbosses. Unfortunatly it was only spelling out what they do, and they arent actually a purchasable option for anyone who doesnt already come with them
Nothing in his rules state about compulsary moves, just fearless and rampage and he cant leave them till they're all dead.
The mad dok and meganobs. For when you have to kill every single guardsman.
With a power klaw.
I'm not even sure what to think about that. It's like hearing there's a named tervigon that gives smash to all nearby gants. I had just assumed they would have gone with rage.
Melcavuk wrote: Slugga Boyz are 6 points each, the saving is that they come with Stikkbombs automatically.
Shootas are a +1 upgrade that must be taken by whole squad.
Trukks only have the 6+ downgrade a pen to glance rule, nothing else.
Hm, okay. Thanks.
That's a bummer, I liked my trukks flying all over the place.
Though i could still use the ramshackle table in a friendly game, the S4 hits do bother me more.
Though I'll have to wait for the codex to make a final call, I think my standard lists need some tweeking.
You are gonna pick and choose between new and old rules? Old ramshackle and 30pts?..
Melcavuk wrote: If we're using the "Can beat Iron Hands Chapter Master on Bike" yard stick then yes it sucks, but as a HQ choice its not bad for the rest of the games you arent facing that build.
So, from a rules perspective, I get what you are saying. "Not being able to beat the beatstick unit doesn't mean wimpy."
But, GW is supposed to be writing rules to reflect a background. A background where Chapter Masters are admittedly badass, but where they should be (in general) superior to a Warboss by virtue of their leadership, tactics, training, and broad array of resources, rather than sheer fighting ability.
That is to say, in the rules, they should have better leadership, convey valuable Chapter Tactics to their army, and have a wide selection of wargear (and also, be much better shots than Orks).
Not rules where they are better fighters than the ork who is so tough that his fighting ability lets him boss around all the other orks.
I'll admit that Chapter Masters should be a dangerous opponent for a Warboss, particularly a Chapter Master famed for his melee skill, like Grimnar, but Warbosses just seem outclassed by most of their opposition. They have no way of ignoring armor other than the Power Klaw which relegates them to going last. They have fewer wounds than some Space Marines. They have very little in the options for invulnerable saves. Given their place as the 'fightiest ork in the warband', they just don't seem on par with a lot of other HQs.
If so, Badrukk seems like a fairly nice way to keep elite shooty units from running and Zagstruk might be the solution to Deffkoptas leadership issues.
It's OK to put a jump infantry character in a jetbike unit in 7th, right? That's how the Baron works in the Seer-star, isn't it?
This would be rad! I don't know if it would be rad enough to pay the points to do it, but it would be rad!
They should have given the Big Mek and option to take a Deffkopta.
I got excited because I read the wargear section first which has Rokkit Packs in the Ork Know-wots section, and thought they could be taken by big meks/warbosses. Unfortunatly it was only spelling out what they do, and they arent actually a purchasable option for anyone who doesnt already come with them
*sigh* that was one of my biggest hopes since i saw every freakin SM getting access to literally every type of wargear minus heavy weapons (unless it was attached to the termie armor in said codex) or cent armor.
I want a warboss with rokkit packs!
I mean its fluffy too. Warboss wants his punch to have some backbone to it so he jumps in with a rokkit on his back to aid the punch!
Zog Off wrote: They should have given the Big Mek and option to take a Deffkopta.
That would have been fantastic.
I'm holding out a faint hope that they will release a supplement with a relic deffkopta.
I'm hoping we eventually get some sort of Meks workshop supplement with the ability to customise the hell out of vehicles, wargear and bikes/koptas. I reckon it'd sell like hotcakes and be great for converting/modelling.
I can't believe they took away cybork body invulnerable saves. It was the only semi-reliable defensive gear Ork characters could take...
My warboss used to be a big scary brute that would clobber anyone if he got a chance to attack. So many times it would come down to succeeding one 5++ to keep him alive, and at ten points it was a fair upgrade. Now you HAVE to take the expensive and restricting mega armour to even have a chance of survival against most melee-oriented characters, assuming the opponent doesn't have AP2 or rending.
Mork/Gorkanaut could be a good one since odds are they wont die until the MANz inside + boss could reach something. Oh wait they arent assault vehicles.....in an assaulty army...nevermind.
I get the feeling they nerfed warbosses the same way they nerfed Swarmlords. Space marines couldnt kill them very easily so they got nerfed. Swarmlord wasnt even a problem because hes so damn slow and never had a ranged invul save, now hes easier since its a 3+ armor.
schadenfreude wrote: 12 In a wagon average . 4 hits.
My phone is going full slow tonight please excuse format errors.
anyhow that is 3 hp on av12
3.55HP on av11
2.22Hp On av13
What I'd like to see is how TBs compare to Mekgunz like Kannonz when shooting (with ammo runtz, so 1 reroll to hit per game for each gun).
Also, Mel talked earlier about a KFF Big Mek in Mega-Armor with Da Lucky Stikk to have a T7 2+/5++ wall to protect your unit.
What do you people think of that list? I don't have the exact cost since I don't have the codex but, hey. An idea for starters, around 1,500 points.
HQ ---
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB, LS)
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB)
Vasarto wrote: So, from what I have seen so far from myself and comments from others.
The Bad and Terrible:
Wazdakka and Oldzogwart removed: They were removed because no one used them, because they were badly designed and none of the codex was built to make a good army for them....
No they were removed because GW got their butts handed to them in a nuisance lawsuit; and feels it's perfectly reasonable to punish the players for their feth-ups.
I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?
Koppo wrote: I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?
Yep, they got comfirmed that they still exist. And hell, they're not restricted to one unit per army anymore!
Some people were wondering about speed freaks. A trukk based speed freaks could get a huge boost if you take the formation for every turn waaghs, and the relic going for two warlord chart rolls. IMO, trukk squads are better than they were before, and 1/3 of the time, you'll get fearless when you call a waaagh, which will be every turn.
Zog Off wrote:I'm just trying to figure out the least expensive, least deadly way to get Ork Boyz to objectives - units of 30 Ork Boyz on foot or units of 20 Ork Boyz in a Battlewagon.
The thought of running Battlewagons without Kustom Force Fields gives me so much anxiety, but, with the 7th edition rules, we would have to buy one KFF per Battlewagon. That's expensive if you want to buy enough Battlewagon for target saturation!
I was trying to see if there were other benefits, like keeping the Ork Boyz safe when the Battlewagon explodes. If Perfect Organism is right about the wording, the answer seems to be "no."
Couldn't you run a mek on a bike with the KFF between two wagons in a unit of bikes? Start behind them just within 6", then turbo-boost for cover turn 1 to be flush with them with a 3+ cover save, then you can cut back behind them to block LoS. Should be relatively easy to keep two battlewagons in cover with a single big mek.
I'll have to wait until I've got the codex in my hands, I guess, but I don't know if my current army will be very effective this edition. I used to take several units of trukk boys and battlewagons.
Trukk boys seem downright suicidal now that their transport explodes at S4 and they take even more casualties for failing the pinning test/morale test.
Can't cover the advancing vehicles with a kustom force field anymore either.
Still no options for deep striking except for zaggstruck and they can't charge afterwards (not to mention how ludicrously expensive storm boys are to collect).
Looted wagons are out unless you pay for DLC.
Battlewagons are more expensive.
Seems like it's bikes, buggies and koptas or nothing now. And they're all competing for the same slot, with dakkajets too. What's a speedfreak to do?
Koppo wrote: I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?
Yep, they got comfirmed that they still exist. And hell, they're not restricted to one unit per army anymore!
Cheers. The limit being removed has given me ideas...
Unless you take a couple of options. Aside from cheaper deffrollas and killcannons, don't battlewagons make up for the price increase already by taking 4 rokkits?
im not even sure if dakkajets are worth it anymore. Theyre really easy to kill and only shoot 9 S6 TL shots, they were worth it before because on a WAAAAGH! they could absolutely wreck something. Now they shoot 1 extra shot.....? Yes its 1 per gun but still...wat? talk about a nerf to a unit that didnt need a nerf. Admittedly they werent bad before, but they werent auto-include good either.
Previous Mob Rule: LD = number of models in unit. Units of 11 or more models are Fearless.
New Mob Rule: On failed LD check, roll on chart:
1: If in CC, pass. Otherwise, fail.
2-3: If character in unit, take d6 S4 AP- hits and pass. Otherwise, fail.
4-6: If unit size > 10, take d6 S4 AP- hits and pass. Otherwise, fail.
Legend:
LD:Leadership of the unit #: Number of models in the unit CH:Unit has a character CC:Unit is in close combat BP:Unit has a bosspole NC:Unit has no character R: Regular check; unit is not in CC NBP: Unit has no bosspole EFF LD: Effective leadership of the unit
New Mob Rule
Note 1 - Leadership 8/9 numbers in the "No Character" categories are included for completeness sake only. If you do not have a character in the unit, your LD will be 7 at best.
Note 2 - The NC:__:BP categories apply exclusively to Flash Gitz as they are the only unit that can have a bosspole without a character being present.
Old Mob Rule
Zog dat, wut 'er it meen? For units of 11 or more models, the new Mob Rule is a straight up nerf. Even when the 100% chance to pass remains, the new chart usually costs you d6 S4 AP- hits. (Guaranteed if your unit isn't in CC.)
For units of exactly 10 models the new rule is better in exactly 1 circumstance: 10 or more models, with a character, in close combat. Old rule had a ~91.7%/~99.3% chance though, so not a huge increase. Still usually taking d6 S4 AP- hits from the new rule.
For units of 8-9 models, the increased leadership from the old rule wins out, especially with a bosspole.
For units of 7 or less models, the old bosspole wins out unless your unit is in close combat, where the new rule has an edge.
Corollaries:
1. For the new rule, adding a character (even without a bosspole) to a unit generally greatly increases it's chance to make a LD check. When in close combat, this can actually push the unit's chance above what it was with the old rule.
2. The new rule will allow you to pass tests you would automatically fail. If you lose combat by 20 (besides being completely frelled), you CAN still pass and stick in combat with the new Mob Rule, which you couldn't do before.
3. Close combat numbers for the new mob rule chart assume a -0 modifier; obviously this is not actually possible. The actual numbers will skew slightly down, as your LD check drops to Combat Resolution.
So there you go. The math is done. Aside from a few circumstances, the new mob rule is, generally speaking, a nerf. Not only do your chances generally go down, but you are also usually taking the D6 S4 AP- hits when you fail in the first place (much more likely now given LD doesn't increase). While MANZ may not mind all that much, your elite t-shirt wearers (tankbustas, lootas, kommandos, flashgitz, etc) WILL mind.
You can take 'eavy Armor, and with the alternate FoC you can take 9 squads of Trukk Boyz if you really wanted to. I am going to try and take 6 with as many Tankbusta Trukks as I can to pop open transports and see how that works out.
My other thought is having some durable firepower out on the table, like Buggies or Big Gunz in cover or with a KFF. Then have trukks come on later from reserves to scream across the board, hopefully after the bombardment has done what it needs to do. Trakta and Smasha Gunz might do the trick, add a Painboy and Mek in MA with KFF to each squad of Artillery just for the lolz of almost never taking wounds due to shooting
Unless you take a couple of options. Aside from cheaper deffrollas and killcannons, don't battlewagons make up for the price increase already by taking 4 rokkits?
Would be great if I hadn't already modeled them with big shootas, lol... The cheaper deffrolla is a mixed blessing since it got nerfed.
To be fair, the battlewagons are only slightly more expensive than before if I take them with the same loadout, so that particular change isn't a very big deal. Maybe it's time to bring in a second or third battlewagon and drop the trukks entirely?
I think I'm going to start converting a Big Mek on a bike with a KFF soon. I've got some suitable force field worky bits from the Mek Gun kit and a few unbuilt bikes lying around, so it should be a pretty easy kitbash.
Is there any obvious weapon upgrade or suchlike which you would really want on a big mek biker? It doesn't seem likely that you would ever really want to get stuck into close combat with him and you might as well rely on the bike guns for shooting.
Big Mek with bike and kff is the only way to give multiple vehicles a save now if you dont want the naut that can take it. HIde him behind a wagon or a naut/stompa and he'll be tremendously safer.
I think like in the old dex every ork player had a Wazdakka conversion, the new dex every ork player will have a kff on bike conversion. Possibly SAG too.
Not gonna lie, i got some comical looking ideas for a kff on bike. So many wires, pipes, spheres, and lighting-bolts jumping around the bike chassis lol.
Indeed, in classical balancing style the highly popular naked battlewagon has been "nerfed" while most upgrades have been made cheaper. End result is "real orky" battlewagons stay the same or are cheaper.
Just realized, i have a biker that would convert into a KFF just by adding a few of the grotprod bits from the grots box and putting a Mek-like head on it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Big Mek with bike and kff is the only way to give multiple vehicles a save now if you dont want the naut that can take it. HIde him behind a wagon or a naut/stompa and he'll be tremendously safer.
I think like in the old dex every ork player had a Wazdakka conversion, the new dex every ork player will have a kff on bike conversion. Possibly SAG too.
Not gonna lie, i got some comical looking ideas for a kff on bike. So many wires, pipes, spheres, and lighting-bolts jumping around the bike chassis lol.
Melcavuk wrote: Everyone else has to pay for them, and units that cant take a nob dont have access to boss poles (looking at lootas and burnas here specifically)
Working it out Flash Gitz are actually really good value. They're basically a Nob (18 Points), with a boss pole (5 points) and they gain Git Findas (5 points) and Snazz Guns. Even if you feel the snazz gun is a fair swap for the slugga/choppa you're still essentially getting 28 points of kit on a 22 point model.
That's the thing with our heavy support choices. They are decent but allways a trade-off. FGs are much better in CC than lootas and have potentially a much better effect on TEQ units but at lower S and shorter range. Depends on your playstyle I guess. I'll roll with the gitz, lootas are too static for me.
Just once, if there are ten or more models with ere we go nearby.
If he generates this charge, and doesnt successfully cast a power he takes a str 2 HIT (not wound).
Generating this additional charge isnt a choice, if there are more than 10 models with ere we go nearby it generates.
Nothing in his rules state about compulsary moves, just fearless and rampage and he cant leave them till they're all dead.
Huh, that's a huge buff for the Mad Dok. Being able to move in a sensible fashion instead of straight-forward is nice and makes the Dok actually viable in my eyes.
Looking at it, i think ill use command traits for the good ol' warboss, as he has waaagh! Already and the lukky stixx gives him re rolls, he doesn't need str 6 as he has a pk, so command benefits the army with ld and movement, meaning da boyz will get to da skrap fasta!
Big shootas in boy mobs have stayed the same price, right? Also, if taken in a Shoota mob, you wouldn't have to pay 7pts for a shoota then 5pts on top of that for a big shoota, it'd be 11pts total?
Multimoog wrote:Big shootas in boy mobs have stayed the same price, right? Also, if taken in a Shoota mob, you wouldn't have to pay 7pts for a shoota then 5pts on top of that for a big shoota, it'd be 11pts total?
Interesting question, had to go back and check however I think you're paying 12 points for the big shoota just because it says "the entire mob may..." its a replacement for a slugga so if you already replaced your slugga for a big shoota then you might not have to pay it, but its questionable.
BooBoo wrote:Melcavuk:
I was reading one of your past comments and was thinking:
So you could get a Mega Armored Warboss with the Relic Choppa? If that happens, does his Power Klaw get replaced? Or does he keep both?
That's an interesting option because you are hitting with rending, S7 (AP5 is garbage, but meh) and 4 attacks, 5 on charge.
Taking the relic choppa doesnt replace any of your weapons, so you'd keep both.5 Str 8 Init 4 attacks on the charge, 6's rending and insta deathing
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:Do we know it Grotsnik stats changed ? As long as he stays T5 I'm good.
I love that crazy ork.
Toughness 5
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perfect Organism wrote: I think I'm going to start converting a Big Mek on a bike with a KFF soon. I've got some suitable force field worky bits from the Mek Gun kit and a few unbuilt bikes lying around, so it should be a pretty easy kitbash.
Is there any obvious weapon upgrade or suchlike which you would really want on a big mek biker? It doesn't seem likely that you would ever really want to get stuck into close combat with him and you might as well rely on the bike guns for shooting.
I'd put him on the relic bike for AP3 shooting, then give him a kustom mega slugga and choppa so if he does hit CC he's getting a bonus attack, and can challenge a tanks armour with the strength 8 pistol if needed.
24 inch, Str 6 AP3, Assault 3, Twinlinked, also worth mentioning that since we're talking Big Mek you could always give him a Rokkit Launcher if you're after anti tank.
One more question for now: if the Big Mek's statline has stayed the same, he has Ld 8 - do Painboyz now get Ld 8 as well? This will be important for people intending to replace Nobz with HQ in Boyz mobz.
Edit: also, you can only take ONE bosspole reroll per failed Ld check, no matter how many are in the mob itself?
One thing I've found is that all the relics, warlord traits and psychic powers in this book are immensely useful.
The "worst" of the bunch being a +1 attack buff for the weirdboy and his unit, which being Orks is still awesome, more attacks more killing. If he's in a 30 strong boyz mob thats suddenly 31 extra attacks
Multimoog wrote: Yeah, those gretchin are going to be disintegrated immediately
I know that but I have so little faith in my boyz now. I can already see them being shot at by barrage weapons or outflanking units, and failing Ld test afterwards. With such a list, you can't really have many scoring units. Grotz come dirt cheap. Do you think it's not viable to play like this? It's not very Orky, I know, but can be fun too. Also, don't forget it's annoying for the opponent to waste aunit's firepower on just 40 points worth. On the other hand, it can be Victory Points for him, sure... I was thinking about getting Grot Tanks to field my buggies, so you have mainly just grotz on the battlefield
Anyway, I'll keep that in mind, thanks.
Waaargh wrote: I can see my last sentence was not well written. It was directed at general list building more than your actual list, and I sorta assumed you had brought along a good number of traktor kannonz (3 to 5 gunz). To continue along that line of thought I'd like - and would suggest others - to bring 5 smasha kannonz and a number of traktor kannonz, who can also target skimmers (eldars, necrons, tau) and stop them from delivering scoring units. In your list the number of kannonz seems like overkill and I wonder if the 3rd HS could be replaced with something else that is better against infantry, since your FA is focused at scoring and targeting armour.
The beauty of going full mek gun-line is the opponent will just try to ignore them as targets and thereby let them keep firing. The downside is the buggies are now prime targets, and the few grots will suffer a lot of casualties.
Well, on the first turn the opponent has no other option than targeting the Mekgunz (except for barrage weapons). Buggies outflank, you have good chances of firing 15x Rokkits before the opponent can actually return the favor. And in some ways, that allows a third turn with your (almost?) entire gunline. Don't you agree?
rtb01 wrote: Do you have any pics of the mek gunz next to stuff for scale shots please? Also what size base would they be on, 40mm or 60mm? Thanks in advance!
No comparison shots, but after measuring the real deal, this estimate I made was pretty much spot-on.
They don't come with bases, but if they did, they would just about fit on a '60mm' (which is actually a little bit bigger than 60mm).
rtb01 wrote: Do you have any pics of the mek gunz next to stuff for scale shots please? Also what size base would they be on, 40mm or 60mm? Thanks in advance!
No comparison shots, but after measuring the real deal, this estimate I made was pretty much spot-on.
They don't come with bases, but if they did, they would just about fit on a '60mm' (which is actually a little bit bigger than 60mm).
Yep, the kit only comes with the 5 regular bases for the grots.
Kit was actually very fun to put together and its gonna look great on the battlefield.
The red waaagh! has got me pumped up! Wonder what it could mean..
pretre wrote: Just saw the release list. Discounts on bundles? Oh my.
Care to share?
Oh, I figured it was posted already:
Saw it on TG first
some dude on TG wrote:so they brought the trukk boyz box back, and it's $6 cheaper than getting a boyz box and a trukk individually now, and the battlewagon comes with the upgrade kit now and is $6.75 cheaper than they were seperately. And if the Dread mob is what I think it is (two deff dreads), then it's $14 cheaper than those seperately. Also the new MANz are 3.75 cheaper than getting 3 of the old ones.
(via Grot Orlderly)
Codex Supplement: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
We got a confirmation it's coming out on 5th of July! Sooner than everybody expected. It will be a limited run (not edition); later on it will be available via Mail Order.
Deff Dread Mob
Two existing models packed together. Limited run. Saving of 15% against two separate boxes.
Ork Trukk Boyz
A set similar to Armoured Fist, meaning Troops and Transport in one box. Potential saving of 10% against when bought separately.
Ork Meganobz
As I wrote previously, 3 MANs with an option to make one as a Big Mek in Mega Armour. Additionally we will get a Grot Oiler model.
Do all those things mean that we will be getting limited runs to save us money whenever a new dex comes out? I hope so.
rtb01 wrote: Do you have any pics of the mek gunz next to stuff for scale shots please? Also what size base would they be on, 40mm or 60mm? Thanks in advance!
No comparison shots, but after measuring the real deal, this estimate I made was pretty much spot-on.
They don't come with bases, but if they did, they would just about fit on a '60mm' (which is actually a little bit bigger than 60mm).
I find 50x75 rectangle monstrous cav bases from fantasy are about perfect for artillery in 40K- I use them for both my Rapier batteries and Thunderfire cannon, and the numbers you have means they are about perfect for Mek Gunz.
rtb01 wrote: Do you have any pics of the mek gunz next to stuff for scale shots please? Also what size base would they be on, 40mm or 60mm? Thanks in advance!
No comparison shots, but after measuring the real deal, this estimate I made was pretty much spot-on.
They don't come with bases, but if they did, they would just about fit on a '60mm' (which is actually a little bit bigger than 60mm).
I'm actually very happy with the new plastic MANz.
They kept true to the old sculpts and updated them. I never thought they were bad, but these are much more affordable and plastic.. with possible extra bits
lord_blackfang wrote: Okay, that's not a reasonable cost for plastic MANz that aren't even really updated sculpts.
Despite being cheaper and being new plastic kits that are new sculpts?
Cheaper? Yes.
Cheap enough? Not for me. $25+CAD per model simply beyond what I'm willing to pay. Frankly, even if there were 5 in the box at that price I don't think I'd buy it.
GW's business plan (if you can call it that) for a while now has been to have high margins on low volume, and the prices have just hit the point were I've been priced out, regardless of disposable income.
Man, I keep harping on their dumb rules/pricing weirdness, but the sculptors keep knocking stuff out of the park as far as I'm concerned.
I love that Mega-armored Mek (Megamek! sounds like an 80's Transformer ripoff, in a good way). The big clampy klaw makes me happy inside. And a free grot!
I would be so happy if (when) they recut the ork sprues, they just shoved a grot into every sprue (or a squig).
It could even become great by adding actual klan tactics, but it's GW, so all we're gonna see will be some boring supplement on that red waaagh-guyboss. Probably the perfect combination of Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements - bland generic specialties (Nobz become troops or some sort of skarboyz with +1 S or something) mixed with a background nobody gives a damn about instead of focussing on the existing clans or characters.
Melcavuk wrote: I like the new Manz, which I fortunate because I want atleast 2 Mega Meks in my force!
Easy, buy 3 boxes and you get two mega meks, 2 squads of 3 meganobz and a warboss
Need a bigger model for the MegaBoss, for now it'll just be 4 highly pimped out Meganobz and 2 MegaMeks. I'll likely be adding a third unit of trukk boyz in order to get a BikerMek too.
GW's business plan (if you can call it that) for a while now has been to have high margins on low volume, and the prices have just hit the point were I've been priced out, regardless of disposable income.
That was me with the Warboss Edition. I AM the target audience for that, but I could buy the rulebook, the supplement, and the cards (which may or may not come with it, depending on whether you believe White Dwarf or the website) from my FLGS, supporting them, and pay about $50 less (even if I didn't get a discount and a rebate from them). I can't justify $50 for art prints of covers I already own, and objective coins, no matter how much I want them (and I do want those orky counters).
It's not just the high price, it's the value for cost, and, for me, GW's decision to hose the gaming stores on this limited stuff.
Any of you math geniuses want to compare the morale check for a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the last edition to a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the new edition?
I always wanted to max out a squad instead of taking singles, but their morale was too bad. I would like to see if the new Mob Rule helps them.
lord_blackfang wrote: Okay, that's not a reasonable cost for plastic MANz that aren't even really updated sculpts.
Despite being cheaper and being new plastic kits that are new sculpts?
Yeah. I never bought any of the metal or finecast ones, either.
They're not really new sculpts, just a bit tweaked. I doubt you could tell them apart at 3 feet. Compare that to the overhaul Kanz and Dreadz got last time.
By the way, on Grot Orderly's blog, we can see some more info about the content of the Waagh Ghazghkull supplement, with apparently some formations, including a Vulcha Skwad and a Blitz Brigade
So, the supplement may not be only Ghazghkull but other famous boss too (Vulcha = Zagstruk)
Quick question for the experts: given the names of the models' designers seen on those leaks, are we looking at new models or just re-packaged stuff?
EDIT: nevermind, images on Grot Orderly's blog show they are the same models (Trukk & Batllewagon)
lord_blackfang wrote: Okay, that's not a reasonable cost for plastic MANz that aren't even really updated sculpts.
Despite being cheaper and being new plastic kits that are new sculpts?
Yeah. I never bought any of the metal or finecast ones, either.
They're not really new sculpts, just a bit tweaked. I doubt you could tell them apart at 3 feet. Compare that to the overhaul Kanz and Dreadz got last time.
Agree with that, I see very little differences between the old and new MegaNobz ... mostly in the heads it seems.
The armor and weapons look very similar.
Yeah. I never bought any of the metal or finecast ones, either.
They're not really new sculpts, just a bit tweaked. I doubt you could tell them apart at 3 feet. Compare that to the overhaul Kanz and Dreadz got last time.
Agree with that, I see very little differences between the old and new MegaNobz ... mostly in the heads it seems.
The armor and weapons look very similar.
Yeah, except for that whole thing where they have new weapons in the box, can make MegaMeks and come with a grot. Totally the same as the old ones though.
Yeah. I never bought any of the metal or finecast ones, either.
They're not really new sculpts, just a bit tweaked. I doubt you could tell them apart at 3 feet. Compare that to the overhaul Kanz and Dreadz got last time.
Agree with that, I see very little differences between the old and new MegaNobz ... mostly in the heads it seems.
The armor and weapons look very similar.
Yeah, except for that whole thing where they have new weapons in the box, can make MegaMeks and come with a grot. Totally the same as the old ones though.
I did not comment on the *new* models (MegaMeks, grot), just the models that existed before: the MANZ. Those have not really been updated. Did they need to? Not sure. Just saying these don't look that different from the old MANZ.
The new models, especially the MegaMek, look really nice: super bulky, especially with that mask on the face!
Yeah. I never bought any of the metal or finecast ones, either.
They're not really new sculpts, just a bit tweaked. I doubt you could tell them apart at 3 feet. Compare that to the overhaul Kanz and Dreadz got last time.
Agree with that, I see very little differences between the old and new MegaNobz ... mostly in the heads it seems. The armor and weapons look very similar.
Yeah, except for that whole thing where they have new weapons in the box, can make MegaMeks and come with a grot. Totally the same as the old ones though.
I did not comment on the *new* models (MegaMeks, grot), just the models that existed before: the MANZ. Those have not really been updated. Did they need to? Not sure. Just saying these don't look that different from the old MANZ. The new models, especially the MegaMek, look really nice: super bulky, especially with that mask on the face!
The point is that that's the same kit. MANZ kit is the MegaNob and MegaMek kit.
pretre wrote: Yeah, except for that whole thing where they have new weapons in the box, can make MegaMeks and come with a grot. Totally the same as the old ones though.
I don't know if you're being willfully obtuse or what. They're old sculpts in exactly the same way the Blood Angel Assault Squad is an old sculpt. Import the CAD file for the generic assault marine, add blood drops and goblets everywhere, add a few weapons to the sprue, done. I don't get how you can't see the difference between this and properly updated sculpts like Kanz, Broadsides, any modern DE kit...
I'll have to buy one box of meganobs, if only to see how easy they are to bulk up (to make warbosses etc) and to mix and match with bits to make a larger squad (like I'm doing with Flashgits).
The one massive advantage they'll have over the old resin/metal versions is convertability - plastic is just so much easier to chop or super-detail.
nflagey wrote: So at last we will see some deals on multi-models collection!
I may spend some $ on Orks models finally
And a Red Waaagh is coming???
Yes!!!
That's going to be a 6-week release for Orks then?
I'm so excited by seing "RED WAGGGH!"!
I wonder if we get those deffkoptas or possibly buggies? Who knows!
Dare I say, an evil sunz supplement, this fast?
There are no mentions of evil sunz in the Red Waaagh! entry in Dark Millennium
Dark Millennium p. 47 wrote:Warboss Grukk of the Red Waaagh! plows into the densely populated Sanctus Reach.
The Imperium prepares to make a stand upon Alaric Prime, a feudal world of linked archipelagos and crumbling gaols. When a flotilla of Ork rust-ships makes planetfall, the knightly houses of Alaric lead their Cadian allies in a worldwide counter-attack. Warlord Grukk’s bullish tactics take a heavy toll on the human defenders and destroy the Obsidian Glaives Chapter before the legendary Freeblade known as Gerantius joins the conflict, tipping the war into a new desperate phase.
It seems to be all about that new Warboss Grukk, which also has the special feature on page 92 of the Dark Millennium book (the 7th Edition background-book of the 3 7th Edition books).
MrFlutterPie wrote: I'm glad they kept the appearance similar for the new Meganobs. I always loved how the old 3ed ones looked so I'm happy.
Now those Deffdredds and Killakans redesign ughh
I really like the look of the new dreads and kans, especially when you put the new ones with the old ones for some visual variety. The new meganobs look great, and I love the mega armoured big mek... but wow that's a pricey kit.
wow we are getting even more releases it looks like with red waaagh...
thats awesome, buffed codex, viable CC formation with multi waaghs and HOW's, more special formations on the way... stompa in codex to finally quite the QQ'ers who want to housrule away my solution to 90%+ of their crazy stuff that they dont want to housrule away.
loving it...
sure prices are not cheap, but they got cheaper on lots of stuff, the MANZ look great, new sculpts and in plastic, oh yes!
Zog Off wrote: Any of you math geniuses want to compare the morale check for a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the last edition to a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the new edition?
I always wanted to max out a squad instead of taking singles, but their morale was too bad. I would like to see if the new Mob Rule helps them.
Err... it's basically identical under both rules sets.
Deffkoptas can't be taken in a large enough unit to benefit from either the old mob rule or squabble, they can't have characters and they can't have bosspoles. The only possible difference under the new rules is that if they are locked in combat there is a slightly better chance of them passing a morale test. For all other circumstances they are simply a Ld 7 unit, under both old and new rules.
GW's business plan (if you can call it that) for a while now has been to have high margins on low volume, and the prices have just hit the point were I've been priced out, regardless of disposable income.
That was me with the Warboss Edition. I AM the target audience for that, but I could buy the rulebook, the supplement, and the cards (which may or may not come with it, depending on whether you believe White Dwarf or the website) from my FLGS, supporting them, and pay about $50 less (even if I didn't get a discount and a rebate from them). I can't justify $50 for art prints of covers I already own, and objective coins, no matter how much I want them (and I do want those orky counters).
It's not just the high price, it's the value for cost, and, for me, GW's decision to hose the gaming stores on this limited stuff.
Gaming stores can get web exclusives, if yours cannot then they are not trying hard enough.
Any word on whether or not the MANz kit will allow you to make a Megamek with KFF? It does seem to include the tellyporta blasta bits, but I'm also hoping the option to add a KFF to your mek is in there.
DaKrumpa wrote: Gaming stores can get web exclusives, if yours cannot then they army trying hard enough.
At a much smaller margin.
It basically boils down to whether they give enough of a gak about you to do you a favor. A store that says they can't get you a web exclusive is really saying they're not going to move a finger for you unless it gives them an immediate return.
The old meganobs were ludicrously overpriced, so I suppose the new kit just being stupidly expensive is an improvement of sorts. Outside my price range. Which is a shame as I quite like them, especially the megamek.
DaKrumpa wrote: Gaming stores can get web exclusives, if yours cannot then they army trying hard enough.
At a much smaller margin.
It basically boils down to whether they give enough of a gak about you to do you a favor. A store that says they can't get you a web exclusive is really saying they're not going to move a finger for you unless it gives them an immediate return.
It's not even that hard for them to do it though! I think there is a 50 dollar minimum order, which is a joke when you look at the prices anyways. I do realize that their margins for "direct sales" are lower but they are not non-existent.
The Good Green wrote: Yeah, the morale table looks very painful. On first reading it, I'm expecting every small squad to get wiped of the table by it's own nob the first time they take shooting attacking. :( Hopefully an faq deals with some of our concerns.
You have to fail the morale check, and its hits, not wounds, so only half of the D6 will be wounds, so on average you're looking at 1.5 wounds, and you still get your 6+ t-shirt save that probably reduces that a tiny bit more.
Well, say a trukk boyz mob assaults in. They probably take a wound from the trukk popping. Then there's overwatch. They will likely be swinging last in combat, right? If the dice are with you, they might not do so bad, but mathammer and rolling dice don't always agree. Have you guys ever had a game that seemed like the dice were against you? It just seems rough to have a potential 6 hits on an already small unit as 2 out of 3 options on the moral chart.
The mathammer does make me feel better about it, but without the 10+ leadership for the 10+ units it seems like they'll be failing more moral checks too. I'm sure the nob wiping out a scrawny squad of boyz to face the firing squad on his own won't happen every time... but I'm sure it will happen enough of the time. Still a very orky rule, tho.
You know, for a second I thought the Red Waaagh might be rebel grots, but GW wouldn't be that nice. Though it's likely to be Speed Freaks, which will be awesome. I'm excited to have rules for different clans and cults again. With a Ghaz codex in the wings, I hope we get quite a few supplements to pic and choose from.
Love the new MANZ, especially that clamp-klaw, and $63 for 4 models plus bits is not too expensive. If anything we get more, since 3 would cost you $60+ anyway. This pricing was expected as well, so no real big change in that regard.
At least they're not Centruion prices - now THAT is overpriced. Whoops, double posted. How did that happen?
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: So if mega armor still.grants slow and purposefull, if they take a git finder do they always have the BS3 since they count as stationary ?
I wish we could over watch with slow and purposefull, it kills putting my big mek in mega armor with a bunch of shoota boy's =(
S&P, as well as Relentless, only affects weapons which are Heavy, Ordnance or Rapid fire. Since most ork weapons are assault, the Git Finda wouldn't improve them much.
Dakkamite wrote: So whats this red waaagh thing? Is it an alternative 'Ork codex' type thing? Is it Tyranid formation dataslates?
Also I read Dreads are cheaper, what do they cost base now?
Da Red Waaagh! is a Waaagh! led by Grukk da Face-Rippa, a violent ork warboss who has been mentioned in the rulebook and WDW 20 (I think). Apparently he's doing pretty well for himself and becoming kind of an unstoppable killing machine and a massive thorn in the Imperium's side.
"Grukk is still alive today, albeit covered in a grotesque patchwork of thick, knotted scars."
That rat ogre is all sewn up and his back is scar patterned.
"It features a kustom buzz-saw that Grukk uses to live up his nickname as often as he can. It also magnifies his strength from merely impressive to utterly terrifying."
Deff dread bit with a good strong jawed Nob head, chop off that tale and cover his delicates with some tank tread bits... KABLAMASS.
Sounds like a powerful, scarred, and furry Warboss. Never been Ghazghkull man. Grukk might be my new Warboss.
You get a few pages on Da Red Waaagh in the codex, notably his destruction of a space marine home world and how he came to lead the waaagh. He's got a Mek basically whispering in his ear to guide him on the Waaagh. There's also a breakdown of notable mobs within his waaagh that are named, so perhaps we will see rules for them.
"When, during the Battle of Bonewash, Grukk’s Skullcrackers were ambushed by rebel grots of the Red-toe Tribe it was Mogrok’s shokk-traktor truck that sucked up the diminutive warriors and sprayed them across the desert like green and red confetti."
May have to make up a Mekboy junka to represent this.
Currently bidding on ebay to get ahold of the limited edition runtbot model for my Mega Armour warboss. Awesome looking model and something I'd love to put to use in my newly formed Mekish army.
Dez wrote: US is sold out too. Tbh I'm surprised the Warboss book is still available.
Does that mean they're gone for good? Kinda bummed I snoozed on those, but I assume the codex has a table with the same objectives on it, right? Cards would be cool, but I guess, when models are so expensive, I shouldn't spend on extras like cards.
l0k1 wrote: Any word on what the Ghazzy book has in it? Is it fluff or does it have rules?
It looks like you have datasheets in it to play formations. Da Vulcha Skwad (Stormboyz) and Blitz Brigade (BWs) are included.
We might actually get cool stuff in it, I'm keeping my hopes up.
Dez wrote: US is sold out too. Tbh I'm surprised the Warboss book is still available.
Whaaaat? Damn, I wanted to get my hands on that..
All this talk of Grukk da Face-Rippa only makes me thing of Khorne-dedicated Orks, what with the gore-spattered ships and crusty old blood all over Grukk.
Also a little bit of this situation in DoW: Winter Assault, where Gorgutz gets a little over his head.. I can easily see a future Ghazzy vs. Grukk situation, where Grukk gets taught 'is lesson.
GW's business plan (if you can call it that) for a while now has been to have high margins on low volume, and the prices have just hit the point were I've been priced out, regardless of disposable income.
That was me with the Warboss Edition. I AM the target audience for that, but I could buy the rulebook, the supplement, and the cards (which may or may not come with it, depending on whether you believe White Dwarf or the website) from my FLGS, supporting them, and pay about $50 less (even if I didn't get a discount and a rebate from them). I can't justify $50 for art prints of covers I already own, and objective coins, no matter how much I want them (and I do want those orky counters).
It's not just the high price, it's the value for cost, and, for me, GW's decision to hose the gaming stores on this limited stuff.
Gaming stores can get web exclusives, if yours cannot then they are not trying hard enough.
From what I heard, they hav to pay a much higher price so they make very little (or nothing when you factor in building costs. They make what little money they can on models with their margin.
Stupid question but I thought orks got stikk bombs free but cost 6 still with shootas being 7. The front page says boyz dropped a point but shootas cost one.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather slugga be 5pts without the stikkbombs imo.
What good are assault grenades on an I2 unit lol
This makes me wonder if people would be willing to house rule boyz NOT including stikkbombs for the opportunity to have them cost a point less.
EDIT: That's neither here nor there yet as the codex isn't officially out, but I've been putting together a few sample lists using the info we do know. So far I have a starter 1250~ list that doesn't seem so bad for what it contains:
HQ Big mek w/KFF, BP x2 180
painboy w/BP x2 110
290
Heavy
lootas x13 182
Fortification
skyshield 75
257
Total: 1247
This is around what I would have normally taken in my previous 1250 list - painboss to painboy cost is the same, I would have had an extra mob of 20 boyz rather than grots though, due to Shoota boy increased cost. The idea is the boyz are all in a blob with the KFFs and painboys acting as buffs and BP rerolls with lootas camped on the skyshield. Thoughts?
DaKrumpa wrote: Gaming stores can get web exclusives, if yours cannot then they army trying hard enough.
At a much smaller margin.
It basically boils down to whether they give enough of a gak about you to do you a favor. A store that says they can't get you a web exclusive is really saying they're not going to move a finger for you unless it gives them an immediate return.
It's not even that hard for them to do it though! I think there is a 50 dollar minimum order, which is a joke when you look at the prices anyways. I do realize that their margins for "direct sales" are lower but they are not non-existent.
Well, unless the FLGS owner is lying to me, he tells me that he could place an order for one, and he wasn't guaranteed of getting it. He was glad to take my money for it, but he said that if I really wanted to get one (and be sure of getting it), I should preorder it myself, because GW had been unreliable in sending web only limited editions.
It's kind of moot anyway, as the basic codex/supplement/cards are so much cheaper that I feel dumb paying so much extra for a box and coins. It doesn't help that, like almost every limited edition GW has released recently, I like the cover art better on the regular edition.
Zog Off wrote: Any of you math geniuses want to compare the morale check for a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the last edition to a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the new edition?
I always wanted to max out a squad instead of taking singles, but their morale was too bad. I would like to see if the new Mob Rule helps them.
That's pretty easy. They don't have a character, and you won't have over ten models, so you don't get to use the new Mob Rule.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather slugga be 5pts without the stikkbombs imo.
What good are assault grenades on an I2 unit lol
This makes me wonder if people would be willing to house rule boyz NOT including stikkbombs for the opportunity to have them cost a point less.
They shouldn't. It would be a silly precedent.
I had it come up today when I assaulted obliterators in a woods. My boyz got to go first. Didn't do any real damage, but at least they got to roll first! The nob helped finish the job!
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather slugga be 5pts without the stikkbombs imo.
What good are assault grenades on an I2 unit lol
This makes me wonder if people would be willing to house rule boyz NOT including stikkbombs for the opportunity to have them cost a point less.
They shouldn't. It would be a silly precedent.
I have a craaAAAaaazy theory that the big rules "leak" was intentional as a stealthy way for GW to get early feedback by watching the big forums and potentially tailoring a FAQ with tweaks or ideas for formations/slates. Swapping bombz for points would be the best thing ever around. I'm gonna ask about it at my GW store.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd rather slugga be 5pts without the stikkbombs imo.
What good are assault grenades on an I2 unit lol
This makes me wonder if people would be willing to house rule boyz NOT including stikkbombs for the opportunity to have them cost a point less.
They shouldn't. It would be a silly precedent.
I have a craaAAAaaazy theory that the big rules "leak" was intentional as a stealthy way for GW to get early feedback by watching the big forums and potentially tailoring a FAQ with tweaks or ideas for formations/slates. Swapping bombz for points would be the best thing ever around. I'm gonna ask about it at my GW store.
If they start doing that then it won't be long until you're up against 8pt Fire Warriors. That won't be fun for Orks.
PhillyT wrote: You certainly could, but it isn't fair to the other books. Orks aren't really over costed. Stikkbombz have few real benefits, but they do have some.
Shoota boyz used to be 20% more expensive than a gant, they are now 75% more expensive!
Guard blobs now get very cheap (25 points) access to fearless, hatred and either shred or re-roll fail armour and invulnerable saves.
This codex is great for me it sounds. 5 converted big meks already all with different configurations. Converted Grotsnik and 2 other painboyz, 6 kanz , 3 dredds and a morkanuaght. And a bunch of shoota boyz.
It's like they gave me everything I wanted, all I lost was dredds for troops. Im One Happy mekboy!
I think there are obscure case of assaulting Initiative 1 guys in terrain.
Essentially they are now a 0 point upgrade. that was the only "buff" given to the sluggas. I wouldn't call it -1 / +1 exchange as those stikkbombs are DEFINITELY not worth a point.
Greyhound wrote: I think there are obscure case of assaulting Initiative 1 guys in terrain.
Essentially they are now a 0 point upgrade. that was the only "buff" given to the sluggas. I wouldn't call it -1 / +1 exchange as those stikkbombs are DEFINITELY not worth a point.
My point exactly. It seems like it was a barely justifiable way to increase points on one of the very few ways the Codex would give people genuine trouble in 7th, assuring Orks keep their place as "bad guys that are always defeated". I think this is an even worse nerf than New Mob Rule.
I think the looted wagon is the default transport for my boyz now.
Can't explode vehicles without AP2/1 unless open topped,
Passengers of open-topped vehicles now suffer hits from template weapons
ard case anyone?
Looted wagons had a massive price drop
Dakkamite wrote: Bomms for 1 point isn't a "fair" exchange, as the Ork player gains everything and loses nothing.
Well, except that Ork players are going to be "losing" a lot due to points crowding in horde lists. GW has basically rule-changed their way out of a ton of potential sales of new models if people can't reasonably afford to pay the points costs in a Battle Forged list. I was looking to getting a Morkanaut and filling it with new Burnas but that's not really an option if I want to use many of the models I already own.
Toburk wrote: Shoota boyz used to be 20% more expensive than a gant, they are now 75% more expensive!
That's probably why they dropped gants by a point and raised shoota boyz by a point; one shoota boy will beat two gants almost any day. One shoota boy gets two shots at 18", the gants get two shots at twelve. Both s4, the gants +1 BS compensates the ork's +1 T. In close combat, it's pretty one-sided in favour of the ork.
Even at 7 pts a pop shoota boyz are still among the most cost-effective troops in the game, considering how versatile they are. Their shooting is fantastic through sheer volume, they're the kings of snap firing, and they beat almost anybody else's base troops in combat (especially with furious charge and 'ere we go to back them up).
everyone took shootas over choppas because, as it has been mentioned, shootas will outperform by far, so why were these two things the same pts before?
not saying my own shoota boys dont like it, but it does make sense given how much more effective they make boyz.
choppa boys seem like the better take to me now too now that the charge threat range on orks is just... just so much awesome sauce.... I was really hoping for a pts decrease but my boyz were doing really well before the rest of the codex got buffed, so now that they are slightly better at being choppa boys and +1 pts for dakka boys, its not the end of the world
Greyhound wrote: I think there are obscure case of assaulting Initiative 1 guys in terrain.
Essentially they are now a 0 point upgrade. that was the only "buff" given to the sluggas. I wouldn't call it -1 / +1 exchange as those stikkbombs are DEFINITELY not worth a point.
Assaulting I1 is rare, but Assaulting I2 in cover with Stikkbombz means striking simultaneously, a bonus against Tau, Necrons, Plaguebearers, and other Orks rather then having them hit first and kill off some boyz, reducing your attacks.
Greyhound wrote: I think there are obscure case of assaulting Initiative 1 guys in terrain.
Essentially they are now a 0 point upgrade. that was the only "buff" given to the sluggas. I wouldn't call it -1 / +1 exchange as those stikkbombs are DEFINITELY not worth a point.
Assaulting I1 is rare, but Assaulting I2 in cover with Stikkbombz means striking simultaneously, a bonus against Tau, Necrons, Plaguebearers, and other Orks rather then having them hit first and kill off some boyz, reducing your attacks.
It still seems like something that should have been optional, and not hiked point costs up, though.
TableTopJosh wrote: Did the price of the nob upgrade for units of ork boyz go down at all?
This would be good to know as well. I'm trying to decide if it would be better to put a Smasha gun in my Big Gunz battery or add some Nobz to my Boyz mobz.
Stickbombz weren't good enough to be taken at 1 pt, and GW didn't feel slugga boyz were bad enough to be justified at 5 pts, so they came up with a compromise which didn't use half points. 6 pt sluggaz is a fair price.
Shootas feel a bit too expensive at 7 pts, but one or the other was always going to be better.
loki old fart wrote: I think the looted wagon is the default transport for my boyz now.
Can't explode vehicles without AP2/1 unless open topped,
Passengers of open-topped vehicles now suffer hits from template weapons
ard case anyone?
Looted wagons had a massive price drop
The looted wagon is cheap with open top and start to get expensive with 'ard case. Also remember that you can't assault when coming out of a 'ard case wagon, and if the unit inside is "shooty" you may prefer the open top anyway to rain down fire rather than cramming a few shots in the fire points.
Assuming you want your boys to shoot/assault the list of transport for boys goes:
the fastest: even after factoring the cost of a boarding plank (a must have for me) the Trukk remains the best capacity transport per point (less than 3 points per model carried) and it is a fast vehicle so you can zoom and hide in turn 1. For a cheap upgrade you can take a ram and hide inside ruins with a "safe" roll to ignore difficult terrain. You do not want to expose your trukk to any kind of template, or even shooting, that's correct, but considering that you can put a plank on it, it remains an excellent troop delivery mechanism in turn 2. Do your best to keep them safe in turn 1. With RAM + Plank we're talking 3.3 pt/boy. It cost no slot whatsoever
slow and a bit sturdier: you're also correct that the looted wagon offers a slower (not relevant the turn you catapult your boys out of transport) but sturdier means of transport. With no frills it comes at pretty much the same cost as the plank trukk (within 2 points). But you lose speed, for an added point of armour, and you have no plank to deliver the boys.
I don't think that the one point of armour will actually make a real impact and I think that the speed (including plank) actually hurts more. Stock it is 3 pt/boy. It costs a HS slot per boys mob :(
faster and a bit sturdier: you can also look at the Junka from IA8, which offers similar resilience to the looted wagon, a tiny bit less transport capacity but is also fast (unless the engine blows up). It also has grot riggers, just in case you somehow manage to survive a turn of shooting. Still no plank, more than twice the cost per model carried (nearly 7 point per boy carried). The benefit is obviously a compromise between the first one, and also more dakka. And a deffrolla which is a not as good as it used to.
It uses an elite slot.
resilient and designed for assault The big Trakk can come with a boarding plank which is a really powerful tool, but also comes with the ability to reroll difficult terrain, compared to the Trukk above it is a 38% price increase but you have a solid +2 Armour which starts to make a difference and armour plates. For 4.5 pts per boy carried it is my favourite choice.
It also can come in a squadron of 3 no minimise its impact on the Heavy Support slot.
Hardest and most expensive The Battlewagon finally offers the most resilience and the largest capacity with the very good boarding plank. It costs a fortune though, and is point-costed to have a lot of dakka on it, so you might end up overloading it with shootas, rokkits and kannons. For 6+ pts per boy carried it is probably more efficient than the Junka, but it is as slow as the big trakk/Looted Wagon and does not come with the ability to reroll terrain (add more points). You're definitely getting a lot of value for it, but it's not something you can spam unless it becomes your "win theme" and core focus. There are interesting options to get it off the HS slot (Nobs/Flash Gitz) but again that requires spending more points.
So I don't see the Looted Wagon taking the lead, and I think the codex shows excellent internal balance with interesting trade off between vehicles.
I personally don'tvalue the LW as my go-to choice for transport, I prefer the Big trakk, but I may mix-and-match my force with Trukk/ Big Trakk/ BW to deliver boys in successive waves.
Now that I come to think about it, the trukk is ~3 pts per boys to deliver them in combat. Which happens to be the same "tax" as Stormboys. Therefore I would have to see if there is an opportunity to use a large 30 boys mob of stormboys rather than 3 trukks of boys.
Instead of trolling the rumors all day, I tried to concentrate on some photography. I uploaded pictures of my entire Ork Waagh!
100% Painted. Themed army:
The Orkansaw Razurbax.
The theme is my alma mater The Arkansas Razorbacks. I thought it was fitting!
About 8000 Points. Poised for the new codex.
I would be honored if you'd check it out and comment if you care to. 30 images total. Make sure you click "Same Gallery" and you can look at all the pics quickly.
Zog Off wrote: Any of you math geniuses want to compare the morale check for a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the last edition to a 5-strong squad of Deffkoptas in the new edition?
I always wanted to max out a squad instead of taking singles, but their morale was too bad. I would like to see if the new Mob Rule helps them.
Mob rule is a buff for Deffkoptas, since now adding a character or being in close combat can give you a chance of passing. Look at the NC:_:NBP columns for Deffkoptas on their own. Adding a character (like a Mek on a Bike) with/without a Bosspole increase you LD chances.
Of course, I don't know why you'd be putting characters in Deffkoptas instead of Boyz, but then I don't pretend to be able to plan for 100% of games out there.
One thing that hasn't been brought up yet that I can see is any news on our air force?
How good/bad have the dakkajet, burna bomber, and blitz bomber become? I have three of the suckers, so inquiring minds want to know.
Also if the Waagh plane is still in effect and dakkajets remain unchanged, the ability to call a waagh every turn (with the right build) sounds too damn good to be true.
Burna Bombas unchanged I think.
Dakka Jet's WAAAAGH plane gives +1 shot now instead of double.
Blitz Bomba's Bigg Bombs are now AP2, so they have a chance of exploding vehicles. The Blitz table is bit more lenient, with only 2/3 being bad and 12 giving you the bomb + shoot as before.
decker_cky wrote: Stickbombz weren't good enough to be taken at 1 pt, and GW didn't feel slugga boyz were bad enough to be justified at 5 pts, so they came up with a compromise which didn't use half points. 6 pt sluggaz is a fair price.
Shootas feel a bit too expensive at 7 pts, but one or the other was always going to be better.
They also gained 'ere we go, and some external benefits like boarding planks.
I think that I might prefer Sluggas to shootas now. Another issue is that Rokkit/ Big Shoota boys from the "shoota" stock pay an extra point now compared to their slugga identical twins. I can understand that they did not want to overcomplicate it for a few points.
Maybe they could have given shootas other small buffs:
- throw them some ammo runts just for fun
- give them a wee more range (maybe even 24")
- change the Shoota AP to AP5 (no big change but hey, that might explain the +1 cost)
It feels just a little underwhelming at 7, but that's mostly because shoot boys use to represent 60-90 boys, so it's basically 2+ deffkoptas gone to fit them back in.
Burna Bombas unchanged I think.
Dakka Jet's WAAAAGH plane gives +1 shot now instead of double.
Blitz Bomba's Bigg Bombs are now AP2, so they have a chance of exploding vehicles. The Blitz table is bit more lenient, with only 2/3 being bad and 12 giving you the bomb + shoot as before.
The Bomba also has Armorbane, making it really nice for clearing out parking lots.
Burna Bombas unchanged I think.
Dakka Jet's WAAAAGH plane gives +1 shot now instead of double.
Blitz Bomba's Bigg Bombs are now AP2, so they have a chance of exploding vehicles. The Blitz table is bit more lenient, with only 2/3 being bad and 12 giving you the bomb + shoot as before.
The Bomba also has Armorbane, making it really nice for clearing out parking lots.
It is also large blast vs. the small blast template from before so it can also do a decent job of delivering some good anti-TEQ infantry firepowa.
Blitza Bomma no longer makes you WANT to have it crash to cause damage. It got buffed lol. Whether its a good pick or not is tactic dependant, but it got buff.
Now that I come to think about it, the trukk is ~3 pts per boys to deliver them in combat. Which happens to be the same "tax" as Stormboys. Therefore I would have to see if there is an opportunity to use a large 30 boys mob of stormboys rather than 3 trukks of boys.
Good call!
In competition for that fast slot are your high pressure deffkoptas, much beloved warbikes, and the cheaper current warbuggies.
I'd have a hard time swapping out most of those units for stormboyz. Except for maybe buggies.
As a fair disclaimer though, my stormboyz consistently blew themselves up completely in every kill team game I used them in. The dice gods didn't like them. But that isn't going to happen as much/at all anymore...
And my luck with buggies has been pretty good. Taking them in units of 1, with flame attack, and running them at my buddy's tau fire warriors worked out pretty well.
I think I'd still go with deffkoptas or bikes for the pressure & crumping.
As a gun platform. You can load them up with rokkits, a kannon, and a kill kannon if you really want and fill it with tankbustas for a crapload of rokkit spam at 24".
I imagine the wagon wall for the assault is dead. Bareboned wagons was the reason it was viable since once you get under 20" the BW is very, very vulnerable to side-armor sniping.
doktor_g wrote: Instead of trolling the rumors all day, I tried to concentrate on some photography. I uploaded pictures of my entire Ork Waagh!
100% Painted. Themed army:
The Orkansaw Razurbax.
The theme is my alma mater The Arkansas Razorbacks. I thought it was fitting!
About 8000 Points. Poised for the new codex.
I would be honored if you'd check it out and comment if you care to. 30 images total. Make sure you click "Same Gallery" and you can look at all the pics quickly.
I was wondering, how many wounds does the Warboss have? Did they actually get the 4th wound like the Space Marine chapter Master and Tau Commander. The Warboss of all people should have 4 wounds. Though sadly I am not holding my breath.
Thanks for noticing toburk! Kind of you to say. Soooo did I hear that shoota Boyz are 7 now? I thought base price was 5. Then +1 for a shoota or +1 for a choppa? I told my budy I'm giving them 10 games. Then I dunno.... Who would have the cash for 8000 points of painted Orks. I'm pretty disappointed listening to the banter. I bet that's why the rumors have been so tight lipped. Like the tyranid player's "river of tears" when their dex dropped. Oh man. Such a waste of time. I could've learned Chinese.
The situation looks pretty grim right now though in general it is actually still better than the Nids got. I feel like what bothers me the most is just the lack of an invul save without the KFF. Our Warbosses now need to be in MA to not get wounds winged off us or nearly killed by Space Marine Sergeants in challenges. Other than that some of the changes are rough though nothing we can't come back from!
At least assault is way easier now when Waagh is used and that makes Slugga boyz not completely useless. It is going to be a few rough months as people pound things out and find just what works best again. Some things even got better so they can be used. Before Flashgitz were so pricey and not even remotely worth it. Never would have gotten their points back. Now they can do some serious damage.
We ork players have one big thing going for us. Noone knows what to expect from us. It was so long since the last update that we got into a routine and people learned what to expect. Now we have some decent shooting that isn't just lootas and have larger assault threat ranges. Time to suprise some people, To the Trukks!!!!
I'm fairly positive overall with the new codex but one thing that really bugs me is how few named models we have in HQ. Especially since Thraka has been "promoted" to a LoW it seems like we could have gotten a new named warboss and it would have made a lot of sense. I'm not up on the lore or anything but there has to be some other warbosses or some other bad ass orks we could have gotten on a "higher level" than Badrukk and Zagstruk right? And to top it off we lose Wazdakka and Zogwort as well.
So there is no named warboss, no named big mek, no named weird boy, and Mad Dok Grotznik is the only one who is a named / character pain boy. bleh
I'm building a named Snakebite Warboss, weilding Da Headwoopa Killchopa and Da Lucky Stick. The relics are very good and we can build some seriously fun warbosses/meks for our armies.
There's even the ability to rebuild Mekboss Buzzgob the most violent Big Mek we ever had (from IA8) from the stock Warboss (serious stats) and Da Fixer Upperz to give him Mek Tools.
If you are willing to play a bit with all the options you can build some characterful characters.
I'm building a named Snakebite Warboss, weilding Da Headwoopa Killchopa and Da Lucky Stick. The relics are very good and we can build some seriously fun warbosses/meks for our armies.
There's even the ability to rebuild Mekboss Buzzgob the most violent Big Mek we ever had (from IA8) from the stock Warboss (serious stats) and Da Fixer Upperz to give him Mek Tools.
If you are willing to play a bit with all the options you can build some characterful characters.
Except for the weirdboys.
According to Melcavuk, you can only have one Relic per army. So in order to get da Choppa and da Stick in the same army you need two FOC's.
It'll surely be one of each relic per army, and not 1 relic per army, else thats grim.
Overall im getting more and more excited. the old lists are out, but the new lists should see some great variety. Currently for my FA slot I am thinking buggies and bikes, but I could so easily swap them out to bring some stormboys or deffcoptas. I think while we will see some of our power units balanced (Nob bikers and BW rush), what we gain is a better ability to bring anything we want. Whether this balances out against the other dex's we will have to see.
Currently trying to think of a way to bring many warbosses each with a relic. so as to create more of a MSU deathstar units. So for example,
Warboss on bike- da headwompa, maybe also lukky stikkz
Warboss on bike - AP3 bike
Warboss on bike
sort of more of the idea that instead of just having one big CC monster who does all the workload, I bring 3 reasonably powerful warbosses who bring the krumpin'!
I'd really love to run multiple warbosses on foot with Big choppa styled gear. Just love the idea of a warboss brute wielding a 2H and just pulverising squads. The headwompa is a step in this direction.
Jidmah wrote: Every single relic is only allowed once per army, you can have any number of different relics in your army. You know, like in every single other army.
Seriously people, stop panicking because someone misread something and start using your brain.
After looking at the first page where it shows my favorite Ork vehicle. The Looted Wagon..THEY NERFED IT!!!!!!
The Vehicle No one uses...NERFED!!!!
They took away my most favorite and precious BOOMGUN!
WTF? I hope that picture is not acurate and the boomgun....the Boomgun....BETTER STILL BE THERE WHEN I BUY MY CODEX!
I mean, WTF? orks have 0 options for large blast templates other than the boom gun and that is IT!
I guess if you count the new plane or maybe the completely random rolling double 6's on a shock attack gun. But that was my artillary piece of choice man!
Its str 8 ap3 large blast was my one and Only viable option for dealing with Marines without loosing half my army in the process.
Does this become my Warboss on bike..... or my big mek?! Ahh i had been saving this model for an awesome conversion. So either a deadly warboss with da headwompa drive by decapitations, Or a nice and shiney front mounted gattling gun (relic bike idea), or a big mek in his scarf and goggles, blasting away with his SAG as he races round the map.
also the LW isn't in the new dex, you need the WD thatt came out last week but yeh as others said, plenty of large blasts kicking about.
Mel, im sure this has already been clarified but...
the smashas roll per gun each turn... so a battery will have mixed strength shots (so in a group of 5 you'd expect a couple 'good' shots).
is this the same for the bubble chukka?
if so I might take some bubble chukkas in 2's or 3's for some large blast AI fun
Does this become my Warboss on bike..... or my big mek?! Ahh i had been saving this model for an awesome conversion. So either a deadly warboss with da headwompa drive by decapitations, Or a nice and shiney front mounted gattling gun (relic bike idea), or a big mek in his scarf and goggles, blasting away with his SAG as he races round the map.
Is it actually motorized? Should become a Looted Wagon, for some real life 'Don't Press Dat' action
Does this become my Warboss on bike..... or my big mek?! Ahh i had been saving this model for an awesome conversion. So either a deadly warboss with da headwompa drive by decapitations, Or a nice and shiney front mounted gattling gun (relic bike idea), or a big mek in his scarf and goggles, blasting away with his SAG as he races round the map.
wait. you'd use a rare $150 plus kit for a warboss conversion?
Mel, im sure this has already been clarified but...
the smashas roll per gun each turn... so a battery will have mixed strength shots (so in a group of 5 you'd expect a couple 'good' shots).
is this the same for the bubble chukka?
if so I might take some bubble chukkas in 2's or 3's for some large blast AI fun
Honestly, having the codex doesnt answer this codex any clearer.
" Roll once each Shooting phase to determine both the Strength and AP of the bubblechukka, " - Bubbles
" Roll once each Shooting phase to determine the Strength of the weapon" - Smashy
"Each time a Zzap gun is fired, roll 2D6 to determine its Strength, after the target unit has been chosen. " Zzzaps
In the past Zzaps all rolled together as a battery, these wordings all imply to me you roll per gun, per phase. So mixed strength batteries are possible, but it may be down to a rules debate.
Mel, im sure this has already been clarified but...
the smashas roll per gun each turn... so a battery will have mixed strength shots (so in a group of 5 you'd expect a couple 'good' shots).
is this the same for the bubble chukka?
if so I might take some bubble chukkas in 2's or 3's for some large blast AI fun
Honestly, having the codex doesnt answer this codex any clearer.
" Roll once each Shooting phase to determine both the Strength and AP of the bubblechukka, " - Bubbles
" Roll once each Shooting phase to determine the Strength of the weapon" - Smashy
"Each time a Zzap gun is fired, roll 2D6 to determine its Strength, after the target unit has been chosen. " Zzzaps
In the past Zzaps all rolled together as a battery, these wordings all imply to me you roll per gun, per phase. So mixed strength batteries are possible, but it may be down to a rules debate.
I don't see justification for a debate. The old codex specified the "Zap Gun Battery" rolls a single dice. If those are verbatim from the new book, they are all specifically singular. "A Zzap gun" "the weapon" "the bubblechukka" No plurals there, all singular articles.
True, there is nothing in the mek gun battery itself, nor the weapon profile that indicates you'd roll once for the entire battery. Just wasnt sure if people would take the old zzap gun results as a precedent for a variable strength weapons battery.
In the past Zzaps all rolled together as a battery, these wordings all imply to me you roll per gun, per phase. So mixed strength batteries are possible, but it may be down to a rules debate.
Yaaay, so with 5 guns that hit at different strenghts and can hit multiple units with the large template, I now have a potential for something along the lines of 5-15 wound pools, depending on how many units and characters are hit.
Heh, I know where this is going. They complicate the rules on purpose. GW will soon be selling scribe-servitors. The deluxe version is made from employees that have become obsolte with the closing of smaller stores or general reduction of personel. Can't keep track on the 15 different USRs your troop-type units now have? Alocationg wounds to 3 squads hit by a bubblechucka battery? Need to charge with fleet jump infantry through difficult terrain against a unit gone to ground but equiped with defensive grenades? No problem now, your trusty battlescribe (R)(C)(TM) will assist you in these and many other battlefield challenges you may face in your hobby!
Kosake wrote: GW will soon be selling scribe-servitors. The deluxe version is made from employees that have become obsolte with the closing of smaller stores or general reduction of personel...
I'm still not sure what exalting does, but I'm doing it.
I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
Currently my heavies are taken up with a Flash Gitz mob (in battle wagon), Battlewagon for a shoot mob, and a 5 kannon battery.
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
Why assume that? Gw stopped bothering to do codex specific faqs for over a year in 6th ed (ie most of the edition).. they only did recent faqs because they had to due to new edition and they were incredibly lazy even at that. I imagine we are on our own
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
At least in my first game I'll go for tripple battlewagons each with painboy, killsaw mek, pk nob and 17 boyz in them. I'll see how that goes.
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
Why assume that? Gw stopped bothering to do codex specific faqs for over a year in 6th ed (ie most of the edition).. they only did recent faqs because they had to due to new edition and they were incredibly lazy even at that. I imagine we are on our own
Yeh i don't expect anything to change in regards to the FWIA8 stuff, but possibly for the batteries and other codex parts if there is a need to clarify something horribly broken. It would truly suck if its a roll per battery, as that simply means that the guns with random str/ap will suck balls.
your smasha d6+4.... rolls a 1,2,3 and is pretty useless against armour... but too late you already chose your target.
Atleast with per gun this is more and more negated the larger the battery you take (which should be the gain you get for the fact your overcompensating on how many shots are needed to take down armour).
The bubble chukka i suppose slightly makes up for this with its AP trade off. I mean more than likely your target is MEQ or worse and the trade off is wounds against AP. so high AP low wound count, low AP high wound count. But if you had a roll per gun then you'd give yourself a much wider target range, as with say 3 guns your 'guaranteed' - 100% chance of AP1/2 so you can now be pretty sure that if you target a TEQ that you'll be reasonable at dealing wounds. Although I do agree that the wound allocation would be annoying, considering you'd have a mirage of different str/ap wounds to roll out.
I think the kannon or lobba are still great choices and that tracktor and KMK are also worth taking if its roll per battery.
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
I imagine the change to a per gun basis vs the old wording is intentional, especially since now you can have mixed batteries of variable strength weapons.
Does this become my Warboss on bike..... or my big mek?! Ahh i had been saving this model for an awesome conversion. So either a deadly warboss with da headwompa drive by decapitations, Or a nice and shiney front mounted gattling gun (relic bike idea), or a big mek in his scarf and goggles, blasting away with his SAG as he races round the map.
wait. you'd use a rare $150 plus kit for a warboss conversion?
True commitment to the Ork cause! (We need a saluting Ork emoticon)
rtb01 wrote: I assume they'll faq the guns to one roll. Hopefully not as that would be even less to justify buying them. If we're down to 3 heavy slots, no spam, what're people considering? I'm thinking Morkanaut, Gitz in wagon and lootas or kanz. Would like mek gunz too but don't fancy dual foc. Hopefully the ia8 dread list will update to include some new stuff again...
My HS slots will be crammed packed with Kanz, A Morkanaught, and Dredd, if not double dose of Kanz. I'm wanting to be cheesy with that big fat KFF bubble to make a nice Kan wall again to support my Boyz, possibly with some Big Mek or Weirdboy support.
Does this become my Warboss on bike..... or my big mek?! Ahh i had been saving this model for an awesome conversion. So either a deadly warboss with da headwompa drive by decapitations, Or a nice and shiney front mounted gattling gun (relic bike idea), or a big mek in his scarf and goggles, blasting away with his SAG as he races round the map.
wait. you'd use a rare $150 plus kit for a warboss conversion?
True commitment to the Ork cause! (We need a saluting Ork emoticon)
Ahh sadly it isn't this exact model kit..... but its the same look..... ripe for da lootin' boyz!
Swinging towards big Mek with a SAG.
But what are the true benefits of a SAG on a bike? jink? cant shoot. Putting in a squad of bikers? still seems a waste of targets? as you also dont exactly want to be assulting
the megaboss with lucky stikks re-rolling his 2+, combined with the warlord traits and he should be one 
Ork formation + 
