schoon wrote: I listened to the recording and took notes...
-Legio Audax ONLY uses scout Titans, but more than Warhounds
I figured it'd go that way. Which is cool.
-Knights charge in a straight line - helps balance
Excellent. I also heard that they hinted Knights' charge bonus dice will be clarified to be per unit, not per model. This is what I wanted to see...some balancing before Knight Houses get all their cool rules and upgrades. I'm ready for the book now!
Is there any news on the terrain expansion? Once I finally get into Titanicus (it's cost prohibitive for me right now), I'm actually planning on spending more on the terrain than on the Titans proper. I love the feel of a playing out a series of battles on a vast cityscape, and GW did a fantastic job on the terrain models for this game.
They’re covering all Legions from “top tier” down, yet we have heard nothing about Audax, Ignatum (one of the triad, even), Xestobiax or Sinister yet? Granted the latter two will need special treatment but I refuse to believe the Fire Wasps aren’t a popular Legio.
Nostromodamus wrote: They’re covering all Legions from “top tier” down, yet we have heard nothing about Audax, Ignatum (one of the triad, even), Xestobiax or Sinister yet? Granted the latter two will need special treatment but I refuse to believe the Fire Wasps aren’t a popular Legio.
Their comment about Audax suggests they're thinking about or even working on them. Suturvora is another one that could have been covered by now. But I think they're also trying to group them into campaign books that make sense. Audax, Suturvora (which worked with the WBs), and Lysanda (which worked with the UMs) would work nicely in a supplement set during the Shadow Crusade, for instance. Xestobiax and Sinister for a Prospero-focused book. Etc.
Oh I know it will get spammed, at least to an extent,,, but this is Adeptus Titanicus...not Adeptus Knightcus.... lets have more titans first,,, more options for them first,,, then expand out the knights. I know they are the big thing GW has going for 40k and all,,,, but how about maybe Lucius patterns of Warhounds first... or sprues with other options...more knights later... or for that matter,,,lets bring in the super heavies.....just my two cents worth....
But thats what they have done. Save for the release of the Lancers the focus has been on the Titans; Reavers, Warhounds, Warlord and Reaver variants, weapon sprues, decal sheets and even the first expansion Titandeath. Even when it came to a Titan-Knight maniple in WD, it was basically an all-titan maniple with Knights bolted on.
Last August GW released a game of Titans and Knights. The first two units released were the Warlord and Questoris, demonstrating that an effective force struck a balance between a "battleship" and it's supporting "Gunboat squadron". The Titan is large and powerful but without support it is vulnerable and without mobility. Simplifying things, its like the Galactica and its Vipers to protect it or accomplish a mission beyond its range.
Although we should keep the game-issue focus on the gameplay itself, the price of 2-3 Titans is as far as some of us are willing to go. I personally have a Venator maniple of a Reaver and two Warhounds and feel that, coupled with two Knight banners, is enough and time to move onto a second force - so that someone else can play. Not everyone has access to a game club, nor friends willing to spend on a game they have not tried first. Knights are not only affordable units but save money by not requiring weapon cards and only need a single marker on their terminal. Their rules are simpler and suitable for beginners...maybe to the point where GW could make a "first strike" with 10 Knights, far less components and a slimmed down rule book.
In summery I'd say that after an eight month wait that its high time the Knights were given some love.
In summery I'd say that after an eight month wait that its high time the Knights were given some love.
I think that's a really strange perspective. While I'm not surprised that knights are a part of the game, I was initially surprised that knights were included in the game's inaugural release. The game is named Titanicus after all. You, however, seem to think that knights are a centerpiece of the game, deserving of priority focus. You used the words "high time" as if you were offended that knights hadn't been a greater focus. I think that viewpoint is what those of us who aren't really fans of knights are so surprised by.
In summery I'd say that after an eight month wait that its high time the Knights were given some love.
I think that's a really strange perspective. While I'm not surprised that knights are a part of the game, I was initially surprised that knights were included in the game's inaugural release. The game is named Titanicus after all. You, however, seem to think that knights are a centerpiece of the game, deserving of priority focus. You used the words "high time" as if you were offended that knights hadn't been a greater focus. I think that viewpoint is what those of us who aren't really fans of knights are so surprised by.
He's not saying that at all. He's saying that they have been neglected as an aspect of the game, and as the lower bound of the game need to be explored in the greater depth afforded to the big battleship Warlords.
In summery I'd say that after an eight month wait that its high time the Knights were given some love.
I think that's a really strange perspective. While I'm not surprised that knights are a part of the game, I was initially surprised that knights were included in the game's inaugural release. The game is named Titanicus after all. You, however, seem to think that knights are a centerpiece of the game, deserving of priority focus. You used the words "high time" as if you were offended that knights hadn't been a greater focus. I think that viewpoint is what those of us who aren't really fans of knights are so surprised by.
He's not saying that at all. He's saying that they have been neglected as an aspect of the game, and as the lower bound of the game need to be explored in the greater depth afforded to the big battleship Warlords.
That is a more sensible statement. I don't think I agree with it, but at least it's not hyperbolic and easily misunderstood.
gorgon wrote: Xestobiax and Sinister for a Prospero-focused book. Etc.
Yes, please!
As an Audax guy, I have no use for Warlords and such. But if (when) Ordo Sinister psi-titans arrive...that might spark some purchases from me toward a loyalist force. Left hand of doom FTW.
In summery I'd say that after an eight month wait that its high time the Knights were given some love.
I think that's a really strange perspective. While I'm not surprised that knights are a part of the game, I was initially surprised that knights were included in the game's inaugural release. The game is named Titanicus after all. You, however, seem to think that knights are a centerpiece of the game, deserving of priority focus. You used the words "high time" as if you were offended that knights hadn't been a greater focus. I think that viewpoint is what those of us who aren't really fans of knights are so surprised by.
I addressed that in the same post...
"Last August GW released a game of Titans and Knights. The first two units released were the Warlord and Questoris, demonstrating that an effective force struck a balance between a "battleship" and it's supporting "Gunboat squadron". The Titan is large and powerful but without support it is vulnerable and without mobility. Simplifying things, its like the Galactica and its Vipers to protect it or accomplish a mission beyond its range."
So, yes, it is high time to address the Knights because from the start they were clearly part of the game. The GME was the game released and featured those two units, working together. Why would we assume the Knights are not an important part of the game otherwise just because of the name? If they weren't they wouldn't be in the game at all and the first models would have been the Warlord and Warhounds. Or maybe the Reavers - who knows.
The Questoris, at least, could have had far better support during those eight months. Would it have hurt GW/FW to have released an upgrade sprue for them? The Qs are very popular amongst players - more recognisable than any of the titans - and a sprue of rocket pods, power fists and additional copies of the weapons found in the core set, supported by additional rules in WD, would definitely would have gone down well.
Just to be clear though, where AT is concerned, the Qs are not the full game experience by a long shot. Whether I like it or not( actually, I approve and just cannot afford one, but would lose my mind if I did have one! ) the Warlord is the undeniable A-List star of the game. Although slow and lumbering compared to the rest, his weapon array is awesome( we need to hire Patrick Stewart to voice that ). Its just that most players will simply be more familar with the Knights due to their use in 40K. The average gamer doesn't spend £350 - £1275 on a titan for their games of 40K and I don't think you'll spot one in a local store as often...
On a personal level I don't begrudge the Titan-only players their fun, and even support it. Its just strange that now the Knights have their own expansion shortly after a Titan-focused expansion - along with a decent range of titans and weapons - are being frowned upon and suggested that it be held off even longer still. Its clear there are Knight fans interested in that part of the game and can only contribute to the growth of the game, keeping it around longer.
Anyway, moving forward, I hope we get some good news next week...all round.
Knights kit require less resource and time to make while also already having an extensive range. They are good release for GW to fill the schedule while they're making new titan.
Is there any news on the terrain expansion? Once I finally get into Titanicus (it's cost prohibitive for me right now), I'm actually planning on spending more on the terrain than on the Titans proper. I love the feel of a playing out a series of battles on a vast cityscape, and GW did a fantastic job on the terrain models for this game.
I would guess next month, maybe 6 weeks. They clearly have sprues, but not yet the real boxes.
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gorgon wrote: As an Audax guy, I have no use for Warlords and such. But if (when) Ordo Sinister psi-titans arrive...that might spark some purchases from me toward a loyalist force. Left hand of doom FTW.
They've mentioned in other talks that psi-titans are after Molech, but not exactly how far after.
Adding knights to this version is not a big deal. I don't understand all the fuss against it.
The older versions of Epic included TONs of variations of knights, both Chaos-only and Imperial. Why shouldn't this one? Hell, Titan Legions just had an Imperator (unless you count a card standee as a second one) and ten knights.
Knights are fun. It gives the game that combined-arms feel.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Grand master set coming back might actually spell me getting into the game. Ever since the knight bundles were undone, I dread looking at the sum underneath the cart, once I add everything I want. :(
Keep in mind it's only good deal if you want everything in it. 2 warlords(so not if you plan to play maniples without 2 warlords...), knights, terrain. Of course if all is good then it's good saving and better than the maniple box but if you aren't sure you need all the battlebox maniple with ruleset adds decent saving but not as much as the GME. But the maniple box has more all around force with 1 warlord, reaver and 2 warhounds.
This. I got the GME, the battle box and a plasma warlord. Now I have four warlords, which is possibly more than I need!
The battle box, plasma warlord and reaver 2 would be my recommended purchases, along with the rules set. You get 2 of each titan, a great mix of weapons and coincidentally you'll have all the right terminals.
The trouble with the GME is that it makes the batle box bad value, and otherwise that would be the most efficient way to buy titans. Dual-Bellicosa warlords are really not very good, and you definitely don't want three of them! If it came with one sprue of volcano cannons and one of plasma annihilators it'd be a totally different thing.
Dual volcano is actually good but albeit not for every titan. But missile you do want. Laser blasters suck
The Civitas Imperialis Sector terrain set is no longer listed on GW's website.
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SamusDrake wrote: Its just strange that now the Knights have their own expansion shortly after a Titan-focused expansion - along with a decent range of titans and weapons - are being frowned upon and suggested that it be held off even longer still. Its clear there are Knight fans interested in that part of the game and can only contribute to the growth of the game, keeping it around longer.
What's strange is the idea of fielding an army that does not include Titans in a game called Adeptus Titanicus. I don't think the rules should allow for it. I like that Knights are in the game; they should remain ancillary supporting units.
Knights could use some extra rule that make playing them a little bit more interesting, instead of being just a moving beaststick that ignore half of the rule of the game. Maybe a dominus might get a mini command panel or something.
Nurglitch wrote: They're pretty commonly called 'Knight-Titans'.
Not correctly they aren't. They're correctly termed Knight Suits. This is a long running bone of contention and to my knowledge nobody has ever once found an incident where GW have used the term Knight Titan.
There's other things that are classed as Titanic in 40K as well, are they titans? Or do you think they're just using the word in the sense of something extremely large?
Nurglitch wrote: They're pretty commonly called 'Knight-Titans'.
Not correctly they aren't. They're correctly termed Knight Suits. This is a long running bone of contention and to my knowledge nobody has ever once found an incident where GW have used the term Knight Titan.
It literally said 'Knight Titan' on the original box of the 40K Knight.
Considering that 'knight' is a terribly generic word and there are many things called 'knights' in 40K, calling the giant robots 'Knight Titans' is a completely sensible distinction.
The Civitas Imperialis Sector terrain set is no longer listed on GW's website.
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SamusDrake wrote: Its just strange that now the Knights have their own expansion shortly after a Titan-focused expansion - along with a decent range of titans and weapons - are being frowned upon and suggested that it be held off even longer still. Its clear there are Knight fans interested in that part of the game and can only contribute to the growth of the game, keeping it around longer.
What's strange is the idea of fielding an army that does not include Titans in a game called Adeptus Titanicus. I don't think the rules should allow for it. I like that Knights are in the game; they should remain ancillary supporting units.
If this was being done with the core rule set( the official, definitive version of the game ) then I could understand, but its being done in an expansion where the rules are merely optional. Titandeath introduced weather rules that irked some players but were ultimately okay with them because it was just an option - not a core rule. However, if a new edition of AT was released where weather conditions, knight houses and epic units were part of the core game then we'd probably start to question if its the same game anymore. Such rules could potentially lead to a more complex game, leaving some players annoyed that the game they felt was once slim & fun is now overwhelmed with rules and...well, weather conditions!
So really, even with Doom of Molech, AT is still a game of titan battles with supporting knights.
You could certainly argue that. Or they just made it more consistent with other boxes which mention the type of the Knight, and the original wording might cause people to think the 'Titan' is a type of a Knight like 'Warden' and be confused as they don't find such in their codex. And regardless of why the words 'Knight Titan' were on the box, they were there, so your claim that "to my knowledge nobody has ever once found an incident where GW have used the term Knight Titan"was wrong. (Or at least is now wrong, as you have the knowledge.)
In any case, a lot of people bought that box, so they now think their knights are 'Knight Titans' and considering that language evolves and all this is completely made up anyway, you really can't say that they're wrong.
Knights - too big for 40K, too small for Adeptus Titanicus. Whooda thunk?
I wouldn't mind if AT drew in things all the way down to Superheavies as part of the game, as several are specifically designed to hunt Titans and other large prey.
Also, I recently found out about an Adeptus Titanicus game on Steam and bought it (it allows for single player, so probably the only AT I'm likely to see for a while). Has anyone else played it? I found the first game sorta meh, but I was curious if anyone else here was more familiar with it?
Stormonu wrote: Knights - too big for 40K, too small for Adeptus Titanicus. Whooda thunk?
I wouldn't mind if AT drew in things all the way down to Superheavies as part of the game, as several are specifically designed to hunt Titans and other large prey.
Also, I recently found out about an Adeptus Titanicus game on Steam and bought it (it allows for single player, so probably the only AT I'm likely to see for a while). Has anyone else played it? I found the first game sorta meh, but I was curious if anyone else here was more familiar with it?
I'd say Knights are the limit of 28mm scale games and natural in 6-15mm games. They fit a game like Horizon Wars perfectly, which is similar to classic Epic 40K and Space Marine, yet the Titans - especially the Reaver - don't quite feel involved enough. I was quite surprised how well AT manages to cover both as the knights kept most of the titan rules yet adjusted for their squad-like behaviour.
I would assume that Armigers would only be of value in all-Knight battles, but large tanks would be interesting as they pack a punch and while fast they have turning limitations. That said, I think tanks in general would be better off in a separate game along with fliers and knights. AT is really a game of giant robots and the Knights seem to fit both visual and gameplay-wise.
Personally, If GW does decide to explore tanks then I would get the relevant expansion book and models, to then join you all in merry titan-slaying...
Yeah, Armigers are more of an Epic 40k unit, where they would be a unit attachment for a formation of Adeptus Mechanicus troops, much like Dreadnoughts, sentinels, etc. At the very most a small detachment on their own.
Too small for a titan-centric game, where the smallest units should be formations of Knights and superheavies (especially Shadowswords, which are well known as titan-hunters.)
SamusDrake wrote: Yeah those new Terminators and Havoks do look rather good.
I bought a Chaos Terminator Lord a while back and still haven't finished him...hmmm. Whaddya reckon?
I reckon you’re in the wrong thread mate.
We were referring to the preorders for next saturday. Hoping it would be something for Titanicus but once again its Chaos related stuff. In the spirit of fair play I was commenting on how nice those models were, anyway.
Just a light hearted comment and not an attempt to derail the thread, if thats what you mean.
Nurglitch wrote: They're pretty commonly called 'Knight-Titans'.
Not correctly they aren't. They're correctly termed Knight Suits. This is a long running bone of contention and to my knowledge nobody has ever once found an incident where GW have used the term Knight Titan.
There's other things that are classed as Titanic in 40K as well, are they titans? Or do you think they're just using the word in the sense of something extremely large?
LOL, literally proved wrong in the next post, and he goes to say he is going to tell folks their wrong. Knights also have the 'Titanic' keyword....
Congrats, you, sir, bring the hobby down with such pedantry.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: If you use the terms Space Marines and Imperial Guard you should probably go for Imperial Knight Titan since they're all 'original names'
however if you want to be new and cool Adeptus Astartes, Astra Millitarum and Imperial Knights are the names for you
Imperial Knights existed as that for a fair long while before there was a model box with "Imperial Knight Titan" written on it.
Right, been a while since the last one, so guys, please take all other discussion elsewhere and stick to news and rumours for this topic. When lacking news and the such, just let the topic rest until something relevant does come up, okay?
I would assume that Armigers would only be of value in all-Knight battles,
Warglaives can hurt titans in h2h as well and melta is even better gun than melta gun of questors and at range. Helverins meanwhile should affect shields so potentially cheap shield strippers.
Warglaives can hurt titans in h2h as well and melta is even better gun than melta gun of questors and at range. Helverins meanwhile should affect shields so potentially cheap shield strippers.
The melta gun mounted on Armiger carapace is the exact same one Questoris Knight have, Thermal Spear and Reaper chain cleaver are all scaled down version of Questoris weapon
schoon wrote: Does Titanicus have its own AdeptiCon "preview" event, or is it subsumed by the other seminars?
If they had something for AT it would have been shown with the rest. I guess they don't have anything to unveil for now, and we should just expect Doom of Molech, new terrain and resin weapons in the next couple of months.
Warglaives can hurt titans in h2h as well and melta is even better gun than melta gun of questors and at range. Helverins meanwhile should affect shields so potentially cheap shield strippers.
The melta gun mounted on Armiger carapace is the exact same one Questoris Knight have, Thermal Spear and Reaper chain cleaver are all scaled down version of Questoris weapon
I was refering specifically to the thermal spear. That's better than melta gun(the carapace weapon) and since the melta gun in questors hurts titans why not thermal spear? At a range too seeing it's ranged weapon. Look at the melta gun rule, make it shooting attack except bit better and with range further than 2" and...how is that NOT useful vs titans? And then factor in there would be lots of warglaives...
I was refering specifically to the thermal spear. That's better than melta gun(the carapace weapon) and since the melta gun in questors hurts titans why not thermal spear? At a range too seeing it's ranged weapon. Look at the melta gun rule, make it shooting attack except bit better and with range further than 2" and...how is that NOT useful vs titans? And then factor in there would be lots of warglaives...
Ugh...Just pointing out that's quite a bizzare comparison since they're not the equivalence of the other , and given that both Armiger and Questoris being able to take same carapace meltagun, while Questoris can take Thermal cannon which is the equivalence of the Spear for comparison.
So if I follow AT rule-writer's weird logic I'd say the Spear would be at S8 with less range, maybe with no Fusion rule.
I never said (potentially) cheap S8 spam isn't useful.
And I was never talking about the carapace meltagun so why bring that up? I was pointing the warglaives have weapon that clearly should have weapon that hurts. And since comment I was refering specifically said warglaives would be only useful in all knight combat...with what logic? Cheap models with weapons that hurt titans are useless outside all knight battles?
I would assume that Armigers would only be of value in all-Knight battles,
This is what I'm refering to. Both armigers have weapon titans have something to worry. One has rapid firing shield stripping weapon. Other has gun and cc weapon that hurts titans. And both can have carapace that further hurts titan armour.
tneva82 wrote: And I was never talking about the carapace meltagun so why bring that up?
I was refer to this remark
... even better gun than melta gun of questors and at range.
which i think is an unfair comparison, one is a mandatory main weapon, the other is a very expensive optional sub weapon that both knights can take. I mean why not comapre to the Thermal Spear equivalance? Which is the Thermal cannon, it is a main weapon, and is even cheaper than the Melta carapace.
Also I made a post about Armiger a few pages back, which I addressed Warglaive as cheap S8 spam and Helverin as cheap shield stripper (assuming rule-writer actually made them cheap)
I would assume that Armigers would only be of value in all-Knight battles,
Warglaives can hurt titans in h2h as well and melta is even better gun than melta gun of questors and at range. Helverins meanwhile should affect shields so potentially cheap shield strippers.
Brookm has encouraged us not to continue until we receive further update on the game. I hope you understand and not take it personally.
That said, I'm glad you see potential for Armigers in our fair game, and it gives me a bit of hope that we might see them released some day...
schoon wrote: Does Titanicus have its own AdeptiCon "preview" event, or is it subsumed by the other seminars?
If they had something for AT it would have been shown with the rest. I guess they don't have anything to unveil for now, and we should just expect Doom of Molech, new terrain and resin weapons in the next couple of months.
Yeah, I think they've already unveiled most of the imminent stuff, so there wasn't any point. It would be cool if 'tweener' titans were coming soon, but the way they talk about them makes them sound like they might be 2020 releases.
schoon wrote: Does Titanicus have its own AdeptiCon "preview" event, or is it subsumed by the other seminars?
If they had something for AT it would have been shown with the rest. I guess they don't have anything to unveil for now, and we should just expect Doom of Molech, new terrain and resin weapons in the next couple of months.
Yeah, I think they've already unveiled most of the imminent stuff, so there wasn't any point. It would be cool if 'tweener' titans were coming soon, but the way they talk about them makes them sound like they might be 2020 releases.
In the Doom Of Molech preview it has been said that one of the included maniples is an all-scout maniple. However, they said it wasn't necessarily all warhounds. Considering the previous release of Titandeath( with weapon sprues, a new reaver and decal sheet ), I have a gut feeling we'll see the Cerastus variants and a new scout titan to go alongside the release of Doom of Molech in april. The new Disney Princess towers seem very likely too.
Right, I've broken my own rule there( sorry tneva82! ) and shall remain quiet until monday when they announce the Imperator.
Actually that’s a good point. The hint about the not-Warhound scout Titans, the focus on Knights, and the story being about the Fall of House Devine, makes this the exact optimum moment to release the ‘uncorrupted’ precursors of the hell-scourge, -strider, and -knight, as well as the precursor Questor and Subjugator.
Better yet that’s a couple of months of releases right there, plenty to tide folks over until the next book.
SamusDrake wrote: In the Doom Of Molech preview it has been said that one of the included maniples is an all-scout maniple. However, they said it wasn't necessarily all warhounds. Considering the previous release of Titandeath( with weapon sprues, a new reaver and decal sheet ), I have a gut feeling we'll see the Cerastus variants and a new scout titan to go alongside the release of Doom of Molech in april. The new Disney Princess towers seem very likely too.
While I would love for this to be true, they did not say there would be an all-scout Maniple in DoM.
They did say that Legio Audax used all-scout Maniples that were not all Warhounds, but it was not in relation to DoM content.
Thing is, there already is an “all scout” maniple in Titandeath – the Lupercal – and that is all Warhounds.
Maybe the answer was a direct response to a question about the Lupercal maniple?
We just don’t have the context for that though.
I’d imagine we’ll start to get a whiff of newly new Titans once Doom of Molech is out. Because that book gives the existing Knights some loving, introducing further variety to people’s forces. And as we’ve seen a few of the other weapons, new Titans is pretty much all that they can go with.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d imagine we’ll start to get a whiff of newly new Titans once Doom of Molech is out. Because that book gives the existing Knights some loving, introducing further variety to people’s forces. And as we’ve seen a few of the other weapons, new Titans is pretty much all that they can go with.
They also need to release the missing Knight options like the Acheron and Castigator builds for the Cerastus kit, or carapace options for the Questoris kit.
Heck, just proper card terminals would be nice…
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’d imagine we’ll start to get a whiff of newly new Titans once Doom of Molech is out. Because that book gives the existing Knights some loving, introducing further variety to people’s forces. And as we’ve seen a few of the other weapons, new Titans is pretty much all that they can go with.
They also need to release the missing Knight options like the Acheron and Castigator builds for the Cerastus kit, or carapace options for the Questoris kit.
Heck, just proper card terminals would be nice…
They could probably fit a set of knight weapons plus 3 carapace mounts and set of cerastus weapons all on a clampack sized upgrade sprue, but resin is more likely.
Was reading the "Notable engine wars" part of the AT rule book recently( I'm not one for fluff so I initially skimmed over it ) and the entry for "The Balthor Sigma Intervention" was very interesting...
In a nutshell, Legio Osedax are having a hard time with the World Eaters and their "super-heavy tank" chums. Then - this is pretty cool - some Eldar titans intervine and even the odds for the Loyalists. The traitors get reinforced by Legios Fureans and the "xenos titans" disappear in typical ninja-fashion. "Our work is done here" and all that cheesy gubbins.
Considering two events in this part of the book have already been made into expansion books - Beta-Garmon and Molech - could the series also include a book for Balthor Sigma too? Now, unlike suggesting that official tanks and eldar titans are on the cards, could it be that GW would instead suggest proxying in models - such as matchbox or corgi tanks and an Eldar Wraithlord to stand in for a Reaver titan - but using the standard terminals and just special rules? They've already gone this route for the giant reptiles in Doom of Molech, so maybe a Balthor Sigma expansion doesn't have to be too far away either...
I doubt it. Part of the point of GW games is the models, so saying “just use any old crap that looks nothing like an Eldar vehicle” isn’t going to happen. Not every tiny reference is going to get a book.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I doubt it. Part of the point of GW games is the models, so saying “just use any old crap that looks nothing like an Eldar vehicle” isn’t going to happen. Not every tiny reference is going to get a book.
Well, I just noticed that and saw that they are already doing that with the giant reptiles - and those weren't even mentioned in the book. But then again you could be right, and it might not come to pass.
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schoon wrote: The dev team has said on multiple occasions that they still have years of Imperial material to do before they even think of Xenos.
While I dearly hope they get there eventually, I wouldn't hold your breath.
Just to clarify, I hadn't suggested a xenos range but merely substitutes for a single mission that might feature in a future expansion, similar to what is already being suggested by GW( well, FW ) for DOM.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A comment on Forgeworld's facebook page mentions that the next book is due for August / September. I doubt that is official somehow as they usually keep things under wraps until the last moment...
Indeed. I like the spires and am looking forward to the book, but for the love of jeebus FW, the one advantage of resin over plastic is that it doesn't have any of the production timescale restrictions, you can go from final 3D model to production-ready in an afternoon, so use that advantage already ffs. And if they're not going to, if they're going to dripfeed this stuff out at big intervals even though they don't physically have to, then use that time to make them in sodding plastic.
Indeed. I like the spires and am looking forward to the book, but for the love of jeebus FW, the one advantage of resin over plastic is that it doesn't have any of the production timescale restrictions, you can go from final 3D model to production-ready in an afternoon, so use that advantage already ffs. And if they're not going to, if they're going to dripfeed this stuff out at big intervals even though they don't physically have to, then use that time to make them in sodding plastic.
Agreed. They could have done a Warlord weapon or two since the release of the game along with Questoris upgrades. And for the love of the Omnissiah - where is that funky train set???
Indeed. I like the spires and am looking forward to the book, but for the love of jeebus FW, the one advantage of resin over plastic is that it doesn't have any of the production timescale restrictions, you can go from final 3D model to production-ready in an afternoon, so use that advantage already ffs. And if they're not going to, if they're going to dripfeed this stuff out at big intervals even though they don't physically have to, then use that time to make them in sodding plastic.
Agreed. They could have done a Warlord weapon or two since the release of the game along with Questoris upgrades. And for the love of the Omnissiah - where is that funky train set???
Was that train ever confirmed as something that would be released? At the Open Day when the boards were first shown off, the train was just described as something the designer had designed for internal use (rather like the containers they had all over the container yard table originally designed for a Calth Ultramarines vs Word bearers display).
Was that train ever confirmed as something that would be released? At the Open Day when the boards were first shown off, the train was just described as something the designer had designed for internal use (rather like the containers they had all over the container yard table originally designed for a Calth Ultramarines vs Word bearers display).
Dunno. It was in last August's First Blood battle report, where the Questoris used it to sneak behind the Reaver and give it a good spanking.
schoon wrote: With the new book at $35US, and the Spires pack also at $35US, it looks like I can buy what I need without giving up an arm or a leg this time.
Do we know yet how much the set with the buildings and the spires will cost ?
Its great that the book is due for pre-order but with the knight terminals out of stock, and no upgrade kits to coincide with the release, it seems a bit redundant.
Whinging aside, the Ferrox maniple's "Knife fighters" rule seems very powerful. Makes me want to put this Knight business on hold for now and get a melta-chainfist Reaver instead...
This may have been mentioned already, but will the rereleased GME include a sprue of the new Warlord weapons in it or will it have the same exact contents as previously?
I'd assume its just a reprint. The idea of the GME set was for two players to split the contents and cost, so having the identical sprues would make that easier.
Original Timmy wrote: Well "i pulled the trigger" and pre-ordered the GME, just got to eat beans on toast for next week or so now lol
If you've just started playing, buying the battle group + rule book is a much better purchase. You can use the spare money for...knights, or weapon pack.
Original Timmy wrote: Well "i pulled the trigger" and pre-ordered the GME, just got to eat beans on toast for next week or so now lol
If you've just started playing, buying the battle group + rule book is a much better purchase. You can use the spare money for...knights, or weapon pack.
Yeah just starting out i might have been better doing that way, at least my friend has the 1st print ed set + Warhounds so at least in our eyes games would be "balanced"(once i got some Warhounds), but i have got my eyes on the battle group as well as i imagine that would bolster things quite nicely.
Original Timmy wrote: Well "i pulled the trigger" and pre-ordered the GME, just got to eat beans on toast for next week or so now lol
The GME is a solid starting point for a collection, though be careful. Titanicus can be addictive, and is a slippery slope as you add Titans for "just one more Maniple."
Yep - two of each ordered. Because titans. Waiting for the carapace stuff now. With these and next week's buildings and book I've got to crack on, while waiting for 11th May.
Wait, so looking at their site - the softbacks aren't an option, they're a replacement? Brilliant, looks like FW are joining Black Library in being incapable of maintaining a range of collectibles in the same format.
The Titan weapons are brilliant, hopefully the carapace ones follow quickly.
Though I’m yet to get a game in, these weapons are particularly welcome, as they give us some flexibility in how we use our Warlords.
Currently, they’re more or else less straight up ‘killing blow’. With these? Effective and resilient shield stripper, and some Dakka that can ruin your opponent’s day by spinning an opposing Titan off it’s line of fire. Whilst neither is spectacularly Killy in its own right, they can still be outright game winning.
These go up literally a day after a friend on a trip to the UK put in an order for me at warhammer world.
Guess i will wait until the full size versions come out and go for free shipping.
Wish they would include ammunition counts for the projectile weapons. They might be easier to bring back online than those finicky energy weapons and not strain the reactor, but they should be able to run out of ammo in a sustained fight.
That would create the tradeoff between the more delicate (if damaged) energy weapons that can run indefinitely off reactor power vs. the ammunition consuming sturdy projectile weapons that are presumably also easier to fabricate, but which tie Titans to a supply line.
Ammo count is pointless because within a single battle between titans you will almost always never run out of ammo, even for a terrible weapon like Gatling Blaster.
Chopstick wrote: Ammo count is pointless because within a single battle between titans you will almost always never run out of ammo, even for a terrible weapon like Gatling Blaster.
Energy weapon had rule that push their reactor.
FWSiege of Vraks Part Two showed the Reaver Gatling had 90 rounds, so enough for 15 volleys. That's if fresh, but that would mean any Reaver that has to fight again before getting a chance to reload might very well run out.
This may translate into energy weaponed Titans being able to remain on station longer while the projectile weaponed ones have to keep going back to the hangar for reloading. Unless there is in the field reloading.
Chopstick wrote: Ammo count is pointless because within a single battle between titans you will almost always never run out of ammo, even for a terrible weapon like Gatling Blaster.
Energy weapon had rule that push their reactor.
FWSiege of Vraks Part Two showed the Reaver Gatling had 90 rounds, so enough for 15 volleys. That's if fresh, but that would mean any Reaver that has to fight again before getting a chance to reload might very well run out.
This may translate into energy weaponed Titans being able to remain on station longer while the projectile weaponed ones have to keep going back to the hangar for reloading. Unless there is in the field reloading.
15 volley is more than enough for a single battle, and if you added ammo count to the game the only thing that would run out of ammo is the Gatling Blaster (that's why I specificly mention it)
And energy weapon, actually the only one that have infinite ammo is Plasma weaponry, other weapon like Laser or volcanno still had their power pack while lso drawing power from the core. (they don't have infinite shot)
melta use its own power pack and didn't draw power from the core afaik.
The Quake Cannon and carapace multiple missile launchers could all potentially run out of ammunition. The Quake Cannon if anything is likely to be more limited given its apparent large caliber. There is only so much space to store shells of such size.
The new AT rulebook has a bit that suggests the Volcano Cannon now draws power from the reactor, not power packs.
Plasma weaponry wouldn't be infinite ammo and is not an energy weapon. You have to have the plasma to accelerate out the cannon in the first place. Either that comes from separate cannisters (i.e. ammunition) or it is drawn from the reactor, but there is not an infinite amount of plasma in a reactor. If you're drawing plasma out of your reactor to throw at an enemy, eventually you have to stop or you run out of plasma to power your Titan.
Yeah, only the Imperator Titan’s Plasma Annihilator draws directly from the reactor; this was explicitly the case in Space Marine/Epic days and the plasma weapons on the Titans we have all possess the usual ‘canister’ attachments for the ammo.
Each one should be good for about ten shots though, so a Warlord would be able to fire thirty shots before requiring a reload. Maybe overloading would draw more ammo too?
Volcano cannon, turbolasers, laser blasters and the like definitely all draw power directly from the Titan though, being pure energy weapons.
Iracundus wrote: The Quake Cannon and carapace multiple missile launchers could all potentially run out of ammunition. The Quake Cannon if anything is likely to be more limited given its apparent large caliber. There is only so much space to store shells of such size.
The new AT rulebook has a bit that suggests the Volcano Cannon now draws power from the reactor, not power packs.
Plasma weaponry wouldn't be infinite ammo and is not an energy weapon. You have to have the plasma to accelerate out the cannon in the first place. Either that comes from separate cannisters (i.e. ammunition) or it is drawn from the reactor, but there is not an infinite amount of plasma in a reactor. If you're drawing plasma out of your reactor to throw at an enemy, eventually you have to stop or you run out of plasma to power your Titan.
Look like my memory failed me and the Shadowsword entry on the wikia technical info list volcano cannon as "unlimited". And they list those as "unlimited" because theoretically it is possible to shoot them for a very long time as long as you keep the reactor cool. Don't think it's possible to "drain" a 40k plasma reactor power completely, you just overheat it and cause it to explode, or malfunction (but they still had power)
And yeah Missile weapons, those would run out of ammo pretty fast, still pointless rule because (more than) half of the other weapon never run out of ammo.
It's off-topic so i'd probably stop.
Still waiting for some new Knights or Smaller class titan release.
Yes, being Easter Sunday, its doubtful you'll see much activity from either GW or FW today. Apart from the odd chip shop nothing is open for business...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Could just be the website needs an update. It’s a four day bank holiday in the U.K. at the moment, which tends to delay things.
I don't see what that affects? They had/could make X amount for release day, and that's the amount the website would have been set up to permit sales up to during the preorders, a limit that has apparently been reached. That means they need to sort out additional production runs, which won't be quick given FW's generally glacial pace.
I'd be happy if they pulled some extra staff in for a few days and did additional runs right away of course, but when's the last time they did that?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Could just be the website needs an update. It’s a four day bank holiday in the U.K. at the moment, which tends to delay things.
I don't see what that affects? They had/could make X amount for release day, and that's the amount the website would have been set up to permit sales up to during the preorders, a limit that has apparently been reached. That means they need to sort out additional production runs, which won't be quick given FW's generally glacial pace.
I'd be happy if they pulled some extra staff in for a few days and did additional runs right away of course, but when's the last time they did that?
It’s a popular get away weekend, and one to spend with family. So it’s entirely possible there’s nobody available to update things manually.
Me, I’m kind of tempted to head to WW next weekend. Can get a coach there and back for a largely reasonable fee. See if I can’t nab some from the FW store.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Could just be the website needs an update. It’s a four day bank holiday in the U.K. at the moment, which tends to delay things.
I don't see what that affects? They had/could make X amount for release day, and that's the amount the website would have been set up to permit sales up to during the preorders, a limit that has apparently been reached. That means they need to sort out additional production runs, which won't be quick given FW's generally glacial pace.
I'd be happy if they pulled some extra staff in for a few days and did additional runs right away of course, but when's the last time they did that?
It’s a popular get away weekend, and one to spend with family. So it’s entirely possible there’s nobody available to update things manually.
Me, I’m kind of tempted to head to WW next weekend. Can get a coach there and back for a largely reasonable fee. See if I can’t nab some from the FW store.
Aye I get the idea, I just don't see why it would matter - the preorders went live on Friday, and the website would have been set to accept preorders up until all the stock they have/can make by release day was gone, so even if someone was around to update the site there would be nothing to update; it's all sold.
Iracundus wrote: The Quake Cannon and carapace multiple missile launchers could all potentially run out of ammunition. The Quake Cannon if anything is likely to be more limited given its apparent large caliber. There is only so much space to store shells of such size.
The new AT rulebook has a bit that suggests the Volcano Cannon now draws power from the reactor, not power packs.
Plasma weaponry wouldn't be infinite ammo and is not an energy weapon. You have to have the plasma to accelerate out the cannon in the first place. Either that comes from separate cannisters (i.e. ammunition) or it is drawn from the reactor, but there is not an infinite amount of plasma in a reactor. If you're drawing plasma out of your reactor to throw at an enemy, eventually you have to stop or you run out of plasma to power your Titan.
Look like my memory failed me and the Shadowsword entry on the wikia technical info list volcano cannon as "unlimited". And they list those as "unlimited" because theoretically it is possible to shoot them for a very long time as long as you keep the reactor cool. Don't think it's possible to "drain" a 40k plasma reactor power completely, you just overheat it and cause it to explode, or malfunction (but they still had power)
And yeah Missile weapons, those would run out of ammo pretty fast, still pointless rule because (more than) half of the other weapon never run out of ammo.
It's off-topic so i'd probably stop.
Still waiting for some new Knights or Smaller class titan release.
Ammo/supply tracking would be more appropriate if you’re doing a campaign game, would be nothing but a bother for a 5-6 turn pick-up game.
speaking of plasma, is there a reason we don't have a reaver scale plasma weapon? If the Warlord has an Annihilator now, could the Reaver get a smaller Plasma Destructor? Something in between the blastgun and Sunfury.
Quite a few of the old Titanicus/Epic weapon options have not made it into the new version. How much of that is due to the rules writers and how much is due to the new models only GW could say.
...further down the line, maybe a resin-upgrade kit for the current AT hounds? I personally will not tolerated such filthy traitors in my maniple, but I know some of you wouldn't mind one for your...well, filthy maniples of filthy traitors.
MajorWesJanson wrote: speaking of plasma, is there a reason we don't have a reaver scale plasma weapon? If the Warlord has an Annihilator now, could the Reaver get a smaller Plasma Destructor? Something in between the blastgun and Sunfury.
In the original Epic 2nd edition, Reaver Titan reactors were said to be insufficient to supply the power needs of the larger plasma weapons. The plasma blastgun was the plasma weapon for Reavers and Warhounds as a result, as the plasma blastgun siphoned off smaller amounts of plasma and stored until use. In game effects, the plasma blastgun could fire up to 2 shots per turn, but could only recharge 1 shot equivalent per turn. It was rarely worth it to hold back from firing everything as fast as possible given the general poor survivability of Titans. They were such fire magnets and their few ablative void shields didn't do much to prevent from getting overwhelmed by sheer number of hits.
Of course in Epic, plasma weapons for the larger Warlords were rarely worth it as their penalties outweighed their power. Plasma cannon shut down other weapons from firing, while the Plasma Destructor shut down all other weapons and prevented moving.
A plasma blastgun carapace mount would be nice for the Reaver to have as an option…
Also, I want the Barrage Missile Launcher back; one shot, dropped a random number of blasts and hit with a moderate strength that made it ideal for clearing hordes of infantry and light vehicles (like predator tanks). Maybe when they get around to adding Infantry.
SamusDrake wrote: Okay, this chap is for 40K, but being Titan related some of you might be interested all the same( been waiting for the chance to buy one? )...
...further down the line, maybe a resin-upgrade kit for the current AT hounds? I personally will not tolerated such filthy traitors in my maniple, but I know some of you wouldn't mind one for your...well, filthy maniples of filthy traitors.
I would guess that if they recently re-did the Chaos Warhound, they did it digitally, and thus parts could be scaled for AT eventually...
Ammo could be interesting, certainly in a campaign system it could give some more choices like sending titans away from battles to re-supply or even some sort of supply line system.
In single games it would be harder to implement in an interesting way but could be done with some sort of random system for starting ammo level, or a points\stratagem system for purchasing ammo. Guess the issue is that it becomes an extra thing to track which obviously doesn't currently feature on the command terminals but I guess there could always be a future update with thick card stock weapon cards for the terminals with ammo tracking sections.
Would also give a little differentiation between the Warbringer and Warlord weapons as the Warbringers look like they have larger ammo capacity.
Tavis75 wrote: Ammo could be interesting, certainly in a campaign system it could give some more choices like sending titans away from battles to re-supply or even some sort of supply line system.
In single games it would be harder to implement in an interesting way but could be done with some sort of random system for starting ammo level, or a points\stratagem system for purchasing ammo. Guess the issue is that it becomes an extra thing to track which obviously doesn't currently feature on the command terminals but I guess there could always be a future update with thick card stock weapon cards for the terminals with ammo tracking sections.
Would also give a little differentiation between the Warbringer and Warlord weapons as the Warbringers look like they have larger ammo capacity.
It could also mean a purely energy armed Titan could deliberately try to play the long attrition game against a Titan with limited ammunition, trying to get the enemy to expend ammo on void shields which then get restored.
If it were to be done for single games, I would prefer it be done as an “events” deck that each player drew from each turn, and it would contain more possible events than ballistic weapon depletion - energy weapons could also overheat, titans could put their foot into areas where the ground is weak, nearby damaged buildings could burst into flames, detonate or collapse, a Titan-hunting vehicle could take a potshot from a concealed position or a number of other such events - or nothing at all.
The downsides of energy weapons like the Volcano cannon and the like are they are often Draining because they use so much energy, and they are harder to repair if damaged. These disadvantages are already "baked in" within the existing rules.
If there are ever more detailed hangar rules between battles, then energy weapons can be most expensive, harder to repair, and also take longer to repair. By comparison, ammo consuming weapons like the Gatling Blaster will be cheap, durable, and fast to repair. That would create a trade off with the projectile weapon armed Titans being tied to supply bases to reload, but at the same time perhaps having a higher readiness rate over the purely energy armed Titans which may spend time as "hangar queens" (always in a state of repair or refit due to more maintenance intensive or delicate weapons).
Such choices and tradeoffs never actually happened in the old AT or Epic Titan Legions, so some weapons were spammed as they were clearly superior compared to others at least in pure battlefield performance. I personally think such other considerations would lead to more varied weapon setups.
SamusDrake wrote: Okay, this chap is for 40K, but being Titan related some of you might be interested all the same( been waiting for the chance to buy one? )...
...further down the line, maybe a resin-upgrade kit for the current AT hounds? I personally will not tolerated such filthy traitors in my maniple, but I know some of you wouldn't mind one for your...well, filthy maniples of filthy traitors.
I would guess that if they recently re-did the Chaos Warhound, they did it digitally, and thus parts could be scaled for AT eventually...
It's not a new design, just a re release of the existing model. I am wondering if we will see a Chaos warlord first, since it is digital in 40k, and then they can scale it down.
It would be neat if there was a one-off campaign game thingy where you could get Titans and stuff for reduced points if they were already damaged or whatever before the game started.
Speaking of weapons.... is it just me, or does the description of the Vortex trait in the AT rulebook imply that we'll get a special template for it?
From p39: "They follow use [sic] all the rules for Blast weapons, but use the 3" Vortex template instead. ... After resolving the attack, leave the Vortex template where it is [and it may move or disappear later in the game]."
(Emphasis mine; typos by Forgeworld.)
Seems a bit extravagant if so. There's no reason why a normal 3" Blast template can't be used. Unless the Vortex is meant to be some weird shape, or one of those fancy 3D hemisphere thingies GW occasionally likes to sell.
Still, if you only have one Rules Set and therefore only one Blast template, I guess it would be handy to have a dedicated Vortex template too, to avoid #firstworldproblems once we have a weapon that needs it.
I hope it's purple plastic with embossed designs resembling the old cardboard Vortex templates from back in the day.
...did I just win the 'most boring speculation in thread' prize?
I'll definitely be using that Vortex dome I got for 6th edition Apocalypse.
Failing that, the Purple Sun of Xereus template from 4th edition WFB would work too. Possibly also Arnizpal's Black Horror, but that's a bit tentacley.
Hurrah! Glad to see the Reaver Vulcan given +1 for short range!
Was hoping they would address the WD claim that Castigator bolt cannons were ideal for stripping void shields but never mind...maybe thats in DOM. Just waiting on the copy to arrive early next week...
Page 35 in Doom of Molech has a reference to Acastus Knight banners in the rules. They’re on their way!
Also, a little fun stratagem is the Titan hunter infantry in the back. Take two markers (aka stands) and place them in buildings to represent heavy weapon squads, rapiers and the like. Perfect excuse to break out the Epic infantry!
SamusDrake wrote: Hurrah! Glad to see the Reaver Vulcan given +1 for short range!
Was hoping they would address the WD claim that Castigator bolt cannons were ideal for stripping void shields but never mind...maybe thats in DOM. Just waiting on the copy to arrive early next week...
Thanks for that, reds8n.
Well, ideal is a stretch, but the Lances get a new order that raises their Str value so a Banner full of brraap guns is not strictly useless.
Zedmeister, Sherrypie - you have just made my day completely!
To know the Acastus is a thing for sure and an order for raising strength for knights is great news. I'm hoping my copy arrives monday, but...damn! Thats brilliant.
Just wondering what a absolute minimum House force will consist of. At the moment I have two banners with a third arriving with DOM. I'm thinking another set of Cerastus with obviously the Acastus when they arrive...5 banners?
zedmeister wrote: Page 35 in Doom of Molech has a reference to Acastus Knight banners in the rules. They’re on their way!
Also, a little fun stratagem is the Titan hunter infantry in the back. Take two markers (aka stands) and place them in buildings to represent heavy weapon squads, rapiers and the like. Perfect excuse to break out the Epic infantry!
SamusDrake wrote: Zedmeister, Sherrypie - you have just made my day completely!
To know the Acastus is a thing for sure and an order for raising strength for knights is great news. I'm hoping my copy arrives monday, but...damn! Thats brilliant.
Just wondering what a absolute minimum House force will consist of. At the moment I have two banners with a third arriving with DOM. I'm thinking another set of Cerastus with obviously the Acastus when they arrive...5 banners?
Cheers all the same! ^_^
I'm hoping for Acastus to come soon. Probably something like warhound level weaponry on a knight chassis and slight durability over a cerastus. 2 packs would be nice, but I can also see them coming out as singles.
Hope once the acastus comes out that we get the warbringer next. Also hoping that demand for the warlord resin weapons is enough that we get a third weapon sprue in plastic.
I'm hoping for Acastus to come soon. Probably something like warhound level weaponry on a knight chassis and slight durability over a cerastus. 2 packs would be nice, but I can also see them coming out as singles.
Hope once the acastus comes out that we get the warbringer next. Also hoping that demand for the warlord resin weapons is enough that we get a third weapon sprue in plastic.
Warhammer Fest is two weeks away, if they're going to unveil new AT models soon it'll be there...
I'm hoping for Acastus to come soon. Probably something like warhound level weaponry on a knight chassis and slight durability over a cerastus. 2 packs would be nice, but I can also see them coming out as singles.
Hope once the acastus comes out that we get the warbringer next. Also hoping that demand for the warlord resin weapons is enough that we get a third weapon sprue in plastic.
It would depend on the Acastus' minimum banner size, but if continuing the current trend( Questoris 3-6, Cerastus 2-4 ) then 1-2 in a banner. Probably £20 for a single Acastus.
The Warbringer would be a good choice as the next Titan because it also uses the Reaver arm weapons, has a quake cannon( maybe the Warlord's mori-quake cannon rules will suffice? ) and its the only other Titan with a 40K version available. It seems as if it can use weapon cards already included in the rule set so it would just be a case of including the command terminal template in White Dwarf( reminding players to use the Quake Cannon as a carapace weapon ) and of course the usual 5-pack terminals. Not sure if thats what they'll actually do, but if he sees the light of day then he might be about £50.
The quake cannon on the Warbringer carapace and Warlord arm are supposed to be the same gun, yes. Though the Warbringer version has an artillery style mount which will probably affect the range and maybe let it ignore cover?
Regardless the strength and dice should stay the same.
The current FW model is not a regular Warbringer though. Its a Nemesis variant of the class. While I'd love to see a AT version of the FW model, I'd also want to see the non Nemesis type as well.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The current FW model is not a regular Warbringer though. Its a Nemesis variant of the class. While I'd love to see a AT version of the FW model, I'd also want to see the non Nemesis type as well.
It looks to mount a warlord scale gun on the carapace, so nemesis would likely be the auake cannon and volcano cannon. Non nemesis variants could be the sunfury, macro gatling, or to be more unique, the sonic cannon off the ordinatus.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The current FW model is not a regular Warbringer though. Its a Nemesis variant of the class. While I'd love to see a AT version of the FW model, I'd also want to see the non Nemesis type as well.
IIRC from a WHTV segment around its release, the Nemesis designation is due to it mounting a weapon from a bigger class. So potentially it could have a fairly wide range of carapace options based on the Warlords armoury. Most of the arm weapons are probably fair game(with the exception of the power claw), maybe even mono versions of the Warlords paired carapace guns as well.
For the non Nemesis Warbringer I'm thinking it could essentially be a mini Warlord with paired carapace guns based on the existing Reaver weapons with one or two new ones thrown in(paired plasma?).
SamusDrake wrote: The Warbringer would be a good choice as the next Titan because it also uses the Reaver arm weapons, has a quake cannon( maybe the Warlord's mori-quake cannon rules will suffice? ) and its the only other Titan with a 40K version available. It seems as if it can use weapon cards already included in the rule set so it would just be a case of including the command terminal template in White Dwarf( reminding players to use the Quake Cannon as a carapace weapon ) and of course the usual 5-pack terminals. Not sure if thats what they'll actually do, but if he sees the light of day then he might be about £50.
Sadly, the FW folks said the Warbringer - despite having digital files for such - is still some time off.
Not sure what Titan they have in store for us next, but it's unlikely to be that one.
Chopstick wrote: I'd prefer more nimble and close range focus Titan rather than more shooty one.
Or something innovative, like a support titan.
Agreed, I'd like to see something inbetween a Knight and a Warhound. Actually, I think that's potentially the most interesting area to explore, both in terms of the models that are already available at 40k scale, like the Acastus Knight Porphyrion through to the proposed and as-yet unseen light scout that has been mentioned before.
Mr_Rose wrote: The quake cannon on the Warbringer carapace and Warlord arm are supposed to be the same gun, yes. Though the Warbringer version has an artillery style mount which will probably affect the range and maybe let it ignore cover?
Regardless the strength and dice should stay the same.
Not the same weapon at least in 40k/30k. Ignores LOS(it's artirelly)
zedmeister wrote: Page 35 in Doom of Molech has a reference to Acastus Knight banners in the rules. They’re on their way!
Also, a little fun stratagem is the Titan hunter infantry in the back. Take two markers (aka stands) and place them in buildings to represent heavy weapon squads, rapiers and the like. Perfect excuse to break out the Epic infantry!
Just a heads up for those wondering about Knight battlegroups; a minimum force is one "lance"( which is made of 3 banners, at least two being the same type ) and a support banner of "free knights".
Each banner that is part of a lance must contain Knights equiped with the same weapon. If you are stocking up on Knights but not yet read DOM, then the Questoris are going to pose a problem because the set includes three different weapons( which I guess we all know by now ). The best solution seems to be 3 packs of Questoris which will give a banner of each cannon type.
For the time being, maybe just 3 packs of Lancers for the "Lance" and 1 pack of Questoris for "free-blade" support( weapons can be different )? Hmmm...
Freeblade are pretty bad, especially single box Questoris where you are forced to take the Avenger Gatling which is completely useless, in a lance they might had some use with the new order. (that still didn't seem to make it any better). The Seneschal banner can take mix weapon with the tradeoff of not being able to use the new order.
Knights need at least Atrapos and some other type knight like acastus, armiger, or dominus to make a somewhat fun army. Right now it's just not very exciting. Not to mention the Knightly Qualities are not unique, they did copy and paste a few Qualities between the household, like seriously.
I have to agree, Chopstick, that the model range simply isn't strong enough to support Doom of Molech. The Questoris should have had a plastic upgrade kit for Doom of Molech, with more copies of the three weapons and of course the storm pods. Some power fists would have been ideal too.
Regarding the freeblade leaving no choice but to equip the Avenger Cannon...one could replace the gatling part of the weapon with a very inexpensive plastic rod from a model-hobby store. Its a hack but an easy way none-the-less to have 1 Thermal and 2 Battle cannons...
Just a heads up for those wondering about Knight battlegroups; a minimum force is one "lance"( which is made of 3 banners, at least two being the same type ) and a support banner of "free knights".
Each banner that is part of a lance must contain Knights equiped with the same weapon. If you are stocking up on Knights but not yet read DOM, then the Questoris are going to pose a problem because the set includes three different weapons( which I guess we all know by now ). The best solution seems to be 3 packs of Questoris which will give a banner of each cannon type.
For the time being, maybe just 3 packs of Lancers for the "Lance" and 1 pack of Questoris for "free-blade" support( weapons can be different )? Hmmm...
*beep *beep* *beep*
Guess who has had made several banners with non-standard weapons AND WITH DIFFERENT PAINT COLOUR per banner?
Gee this kind of rule would have been nice to have in original rules. Grumble grumble. Makes these knight only lists impossible for me with wysiwyg without repainting(ugh) or looooots more money to be spent.
I wouldn't sweat it about the mixed colours. A "crusade" style force of mixed households fits the 30k background pretty well IMO. And the custom weapons can easily be explained away as different patterns of existing stuff.
Guess who has had made several banners with non-standard weapons AND WITH DIFFERENT PAINT COLOUR per banner?
Gee this kind of rule would have been nice to have in original rules. Grumble grumble. Makes these knight only lists impossible for me with wysiwyg without repainting(ugh) or looooots more money to be spent.
Grumble grumble.
My friend, it happens to the best of us!
I'm now staring at a brand new sprue of Questoris...wondering what the dickens to do with them!
I think it'll just be the bodies for now and leave the arms for another time...
Gave FW a ring today, and they apparently remain in a bit of a shambles.
They have no idea what's happening with the black books. Are they getting the missing hardbacks back in? Dunno. Are they going to print softback versions of the ones presently sold as hardbacks? Dunno. When will the softbacks they do make be back in stock? Dunno.
Asked about the Titanicus weapons - would only speak in generalities, restock "typically" takes a few weeks but may take more than a month. In other words, Dunno.
I get it's not the guy answering the phone's fault, but crikey it's frustrating.
Seems the Forgeworld Store at Warhammer World has them in stock daily. Unsure about Warhammer Café, or the handful of other stores that carry expanded stock.
I appreciate this probably isn't terribly useful, but felt worth sharing. I'm gonna see if I can get my friend who lives really close to nab me one of each. Shall bribe her with a pint!
Basicly a showcase of how you can mix some normal 40k terrain and the vine kit into AT terrain.
Hey, that overgrown mossy ruin idea's not bad. Might nick that.
Their suggestion for combining 40K and AT terrain lacks vision, though.
What I wanna do is get hold of a Shrine of the Aquila (for the price of a Knight box), plus a set of those those Galvanic Servohauler crane things. Remove the floors, cover up the 28mm giveaway bits like the door and ladder, and hey presto: a ruined Titan maintenance hangar complete with huge repair vehicles. Just like the inside cover of the AT rulebook, except explodified.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'd thought that they'd be doing the usual; first print run is hardbacks, then all subsequent runs paperback.
I'm fairly sure there's been more than one run of at least the earlier black books by now, there's very little chance they're still selling ones they ran up seven years ago for Betrayal. They genuinely don't seem to know what they're going to do with the black book series, the paperbacks for 4 and 6 seem like stopgaps to make sure they still had the content available when the most recent hardback runs for them ran out or something. Then again, they don't even seem to know if they're getting those back in stock either.
Question for anyone that got the Knight Stratagem cards set that came out with Doom of Molech; what exactly is in it? I looked at the contents listed on GW’s website and it doesn’t make sense when compared to the content of the book…
Mr_Rose wrote: Question for anyone that got the Knight Stratagem cards set that came out with Doom of Molech; what exactly is in it? I looked at the contents listed on GW’s website and it doesn’t make sense when compared to the content of the book…
I haven't had the chance to order a pack yet, but they should be the same as in the book...unless they have included additional stratagems.
Update: At a guess, the "8 House stratagems" are exclusive to the card set. Being as it contains 8 cards where DOM has only 7 houses...they include an additional new house? Hmmm. Eitherway, it'll be at least another week before I can get my grubby mits on a set...
Yeah that's why I'm holding off on these Warlord guns until more options are out. Really want more Reaver carapace options, and if I can split an order with someone at my local club we can get free shipping
Well, that didn't last long. I want both, but don't want to splash £3:50 postage for a single flippin' gun
No idea if this is geographically feasible, but Warhammer World appear to have a steady supply?
1 hours drive? Not worth the petrol. I can wait, besides Xttz is spot on in waiting until more weapons are out including the Carapace Gatling Blasters for the Warlord.
The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Just so you guys know, the quake cannon and macro Gatling are very nice kits. I was surprised to see that the Gatling barrel array is two sets of three barrels rather than three pairs like on the plastic kits though.
As someone who used to organise a convention (though not for FW), I can say that most convention stock is considered as an "order." Most companies do not pilfer from stock to add to it.
They are likely casting as fast as they can, and demand is simply outpacing production.
...though that's cold comfort when I can't get my hands on one
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Right, but as far as I know it doesn't have magical wards placed upon it to keep it from being sold anywhere but WHW, so when they run out of stock on the website within a day for the second time they could maybe go to the admittedly strenuous effort of reassigning some of it back to the regular webshop.
I'm not buying them, they look nice but I can't really afford them so I'll happily convert. Strangely, for someone that can't afford them, I could have bought them at any time they're available, so I don't quite understand how someone that can afford them, with notice of available stock, wasn't able to. I recommend anyone in this situation leaving some money in their current account, not very strenuous and a lot more productive than complaining about stock levels.
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Right, but as far as I know it doesn't have magical wards placed upon it to keep it from being sold anywhere but WHW, so when they run out of stock on the website within a day for the second time they could maybe go to the admittedly strenuous effort of reassigning some of it back to the regular webshop.
That kind of assumes that the reserve stock for the physical store represents a significant enough quantity to extend the online availability for, well, any amount of time.
What do you suppose the typical sell-through of the WHW store is for AT bitz? I would find it hard to credit more then 4-5 a day. So let’s assume they sold an even 100 in the time since release and have that much again in reserve.
What about the web shop? Do we think an extra hundred units would have kept them in stock for another week? Or another five minutes?
If the answer is five minutes then is it really worth it to take the ten minutes to head over to the store, known loss their stock, bring it back to the distribution office and re-enter it into the system? Assuming it’s even that easy.
Basically unless you assume the single local store is selling at a rate within an order of magnitude of the international, 24/7 web shop the transaction doesn’t actually gain you anything except frustrated visitors to the physical store.
I'm hoping demand is high enough that FW will see it and decide to make a plastic sprue for these guns. gatling, quake, las-burner arm for the melee option, carapace mount (vulcans?) and the lucius head would all fit and give them another kit to release.
Except large amount of that demand is already fulfilled. They would need to get everybody who bought one to buy those(and more preferably) AGAIN to even consider it.
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Right, but as far as I know it doesn't have magical wards placed upon it to keep it from being sold anywhere but WHW, so when they run out of stock on the website within a day for the second time they could maybe go to the admittedly strenuous effort of reassigning some of it back to the regular webshop.
Personally as a customer I'd be far more pissed off if I was making a trip to Nottingham and the items I wanted to buy weren't available on the day. Allocating stock aside for the bricks & mortar side of a retail business is standard practice and for good reason.
It's also fantastic to see that these products are in sufficient demand to repeatedly sell out production runs. That makes it all the more likely to see even more of them developed in future.
Mr_Rose wrote: Just so you guys know, the quake cannon and macro Gatling are very nice kits. I was surprised to see that the Gatling barrel array is two sets of three barrels rather than three pairs like on the plastic kits though.
I guess that will be down to flexibility of resin casting compared to plastic, as you can get away with undercuts with resin.
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Right, but as far as I know it doesn't have magical wards placed upon it to keep it from being sold anywhere but WHW, so when they run out of stock on the website within a day for the second time they could maybe go to the admittedly strenuous effort of reassigning some of it back to the regular webshop.
Personally as a customer I'd be far more pissed off if I was making a trip to Nottingham and the items I wanted to buy weren't available on the day. Allocating stock aside for the bricks & mortar side of a retail business is standard practice and for good reason.
It's also fantastic to see that these products are in sufficient demand to repeatedly sell out production runs. That makes it all the more likely to see even more of them developed in future.
They can develop as many as they like, unless I can actually buy them that doesn't mean much. I can't glue pretty pictures from a website to my models
Yodhrin wrote: The fact they're evidently either holding some back or doing quickfire casting runs to keep their own shop supplied but can't keep them up on the website for more than a sodding day is really annoying.
FW Store and Events have their inventory set aside well in advance of release, rather than plucked from a central pile.
That’s how I was able to Loot some of the Legion dice when I went to Salute. Wasn’t expecting them to be there, as they’d been sold out on the web store for weeks. It’s also how I found out the info above
Right, but as far as I know it doesn't have magical wards placed upon it to keep it from being sold anywhere but WHW, so when they run out of stock on the website within a day for the second time they could maybe go to the admittedly strenuous effort of reassigning some of it back to the regular webshop.
Personally as a customer I'd be far more pissed off if I was making a trip to Nottingham and the items I wanted to buy weren't available on the day. Allocating stock aside for the bricks & mortar side of a retail business is standard practice and for good reason.
It's also fantastic to see that these products are in sufficient demand to repeatedly sell out production runs. That makes it all the more likely to see even more of them developed in future.
They can develop as many as they like, unless I can actually buy them that doesn't mean much. I can't glue pretty pictures from a website to my models
Where's your Blue Peter spirit? Of course you can glue pictures to your models!!
Mr_Rose wrote: Question for anyone that got the Knight Stratagem cards set that came out with Doom of Molech; what exactly is in it? I looked at the contents listed on GW’s website and it doesn’t make sense when compared to the content of the book…
I haven't had the chance to order a pack yet, but they should be the same as in the book...unless they have included additional stratagems.
Update: At a guess, the "8 House stratagems" are exclusive to the card set. Being as it contains 8 cards where DOM has only 7 houses...they include an additional new house? Hmmm. Eitherway, it'll be at least another week before I can get my grubby mits on a set...
I've got the cards. Two of the Houses have two stratagems - one of which is Devine. One house has none.
The two stratagems of the other house that has two have an identical effect but a different name, which is weird. There's a theory that one of these was intended to be for the house that has no strat of its own.
This whole thing gets the thumbs down from me. The strats should obviously be in the book, where there's plenty of space. And it looks like they've messed them up a bit, which is more evidence of poor/no editing in this game. I love the game but I hate trying to figure out what the rules are supposed to be.
I'm not sure I'd say not to bother. The Molech book is good overall I think. The knight stratagem cards are only needed if you're running an all-knight army though, which makes them a pretty niche purchase within a niche game.
They seriously should have written the house strats into the book though. Not doing so is incomprehensible. What on earth happens in future if they bring out rules for more knight houses?
Mandragola wrote:I'm not sure I'd say not to bother. The Molech book is good overall I think. The knight stratagem cards are only needed if you're running an all-knight army though, which makes them a pretty niche purchase within a niche game.
They seriously should have written the house strats into the book though. Not doing so is incomprehensible. What on earth happens in future if they bring out rules for more knight houses?
Mr_Rose wrote:That’s what I mean. I have Molech; I’m not touching the cards.
Update: I just got off the phone with Games Workshop customer support and they seem to be quite concerned by the stratagems missing from the book. I sent them some photographs of the Knight House pages showing just the traits table but no stratagems. They said they would get back to me soon with an answer.
Hopefully that means that this was all a printing error and we will get an update or FAQ or something with the full text of the missing stratagem cards published soon. If anyone else wants to give GW a call and let them know they have the same issue I don’t think it would hurt anything though.
Glad they actually made the knight upgrade in plastic, I hope they did include a left hand fist, and maybe left hand Rapid Fire B.Cannon and Thermal Cannon also.
Kinda disappoint they didn't make the Atrapos first, probably the best models to lead a Knight army imo.
Guess I'll be buying a bunch of new full kit questoris knights. (glad I held off and didn't buy more Knight box)
The more they reveal the more it seems like they had no plans for AT beyond the three titans and the two knights. The "Titans of Legend" sets, dice packs, and stratagem cards just seems so lazy.
Come on guys, even if its months or even a year away at least let us know something interesting is on the horizon, because right now it seems like you've run out of ideas.
Zethnar wrote: The more they reveal the more it seems like they had no plans for AT beyond the three titans and the two knights. The "Titans of Legend" sets, dice packs, and stratagem cards just seems so lazy.
Come on guys, even if its months or even a year away at least let us know something interesting is on the horizon, because right now it seems like you've run out of ideas.
Zethnar wrote: The more they reveal the more it seems like they had no plans for AT beyond the three titans and the two knights. The "Titans of Legend" sets, dice packs, and stratagem cards just seems so lazy.
Come on guys, even if its months or even a year away at least let us know something interesting is on the horizon, because right now it seems like you've run out of ideas.
Ummm all these were listed on their to do list long time.
So the Aeronautica Imperalis stuff is the same scale as AT? and will be compatible? I thought it would be GW attempting to make their own version of actual X-wing.
Chopstick wrote: So the Aeronautica Imperalis stuff is the same scale as AT? and will be compatible? I thought it would be GW attempting to make their own version of actual X-wing.
Aeronautica already existed so this is likely just a reprint with some "freshening up" around the edges to bring the fluff/story into line with AT. The existing models are already in the same scale (close enough, anyway) as the new titans so it's just a matter of what will be done in plastic and what will be made in resin.
MarkNorfolk wrote:Well, they've just revealed the third knight.....
I take it all back, they clearly had a long and well thought out release plan!
RazorEdge wrote:They could reveal Aeronautica Imperalis...
and later EPIC....
There's no indication that it will be compatible with or even in scale with AT. If I had to guess I would say this is their attempt to cash in on the popularity of X-Wing, although five years too late.
Chopstick wrote: So the Aeronautica Imperalis stuff is the same scale as AT? and will be compatible? I thought it would be GW attempting to make their own version of actual X-wing.
beast_gts wrote: Did anyone there get a look at what symbol is on the Loyalist dice?
See for yourself.
Sorry, I should have been more specific - The Traitor dice have the Eye of Horus on them. Did anyone there get a look at what the opposite symbol is on the Loyalist dice is?
Aeronautica Imperialis is indeed the same scale (or at least as close as makes almost no difference).
I'm expecting air rules for AT in the next book at this point.
...and don't forget that the plastic kit development cycle is much longer than for books or resin, so new kits take quite a bit of time. Then they need to fill the intervening time with something...
Disappointing to hear the Molech book was victim of the typical quality editing that seems to infest GW and the game industry in general these days. Is it too tough to have someone off of the design team proof the book before you send it off to the printers, and again before the print run? This lazy, sloppy stuff is getting old, like Warlord leaving a half page of significant rules out of the recent Erewhon book....
No one had pic of the upgrade sprue for Questoris knight? I noticed they used the head of the Knight Preceptor, so maybe it will also had the Las-impulsor and multi-laser carapace.
Did anyone else happen to go to the seminar and know if they mentioned when the Questoris upgrade sprue will be coming out and if it will also be sold separately?
I just bought two boxes of Questoris Knights and it would be slightly annoying to always be two add-on sprues short...
Jack Flask wrote: Did anyone else happen to go to the seminar and know if they mentioned when the Questoris upgrade sprue will be coming out and if it will also be sold separately?
I just bought two boxes of Questoris Knights and it would be slightly annoying to always be two add-on sprues short...
They mentioned it would be sold separately too, no mention of release date though.
Jack Flask wrote: Did anyone else happen to go to the seminar and know if they mentioned when the Questoris upgrade sprue will be coming out and if it will also be sold separately?
I just bought two boxes of Questoris Knights and it would be slightly annoying to always be two add-on sprues short...
They mentioned it would be sold separately too, no mention of release date though.
Has there been any more details on how big the sprue is and what it contains? As other people have said, duplicates for some of the existing weapons would be handy, although personally I'm expecting something the size of the 40k Chapter upgrade sprues with under a dozen components.
Jack Flask wrote: Did anyone else happen to go to the seminar and know if they mentioned when the Questoris upgrade sprue will be coming out and if it will also be sold separately?
I just bought two boxes of Questoris Knights and it would be slightly annoying to always be two add-on sprues short...
They mentioned it would be sold separately too, no mention of release date though.
Has there been any more details on how big the sprue is and what it contains? As other people have said, duplicates for some of the existing weapons would be handy, although personally I'm expecting something the size of the 40k Chapter upgrade sprues with under a dozen components.
If it doesn't include, at a minimum, a pair of each of the weapons from the core sprue, plus three rocket pods and three gauntlets - ie, what's required to actually choose a loadout when buying a single box, rather than "making do" - I genuinely don't see what the point is. I don't think, right now, I feel the need to represent every minor sub-class of Knight, but still only have the chance to build one of any given type from a box, especially now the first iteration of the Household list is out and pushes hard for monobuild Banners over mixed loadouts.
Jack Flask wrote: Did anyone else happen to go to the seminar and know if they mentioned when the Questoris upgrade sprue will be coming out and if it will also be sold separately?
I just bought two boxes of Questoris Knights and it would be slightly annoying to always be two add-on sprues short...
They mentioned it would be sold separately too, no mention of release date though.
But will it be available in the US or just temporarily out of stock here?
totalfailure wrote: Disappointing to hear the Molech book was victim of the typical quality editing that seems to infest GW and the game industry in general these days. Is it too tough to have someone off of the design team proof the book before you send it off to the printers, and again before the print run? This lazy, sloppy stuff is getting old, like Warlord leaving a half page of significant rules out of the recent Erewhon book....
Yeah, it's too bad to hear that once again, GW can't proofread their productions as well as tiny indie publishers. I have never had any other company I buy from have more errors and erratas needed than GW rules.
Looking at the Acastus Terminals...90pts + weapons, so a minimum banner seems to be a single Acastus. SEVEN structure points!
Most of you will be more familar with the capabilities of the Acastus, but he seems a good support choice for those Titans that are slightly lacking in firepower. Cannot wait to field this chap!
New dice is welcome and looking good. Can't decide between them so probably end up getting both. Can never have enough dice!
Has there been any more details on how big the sprue is and what it contains? As other people have said, duplicates for some of the existing weapons would be handy, although personally I'm expecting something the size of the 40k Chapter upgrade sprues with under a dozen components.
If they are including the upgrade sprue in future Questoris box sets then it would be smaller than the standard sprue( the three knights ) in order to keep the price the same. Personally, I think £20 is asking a little too much for the Questoris and Cerastus - especially when compared to the Warhounds - so it would be decent of GW to keep the price the same when including the upgrade sprue.
I've had shocking stuff from indies, from major fiction & non fiction publishers and from academic presses (especially irritating when you have to buy a book knowing it's missing part of an important chapter and are paying £195 for the privilege) etc
but GW does seem to suffer from more than it's fair share
SamusDrake wrote: Looking at the Acastus Terminals...90pts + weapons, so a minimum banner seems to be a single Acastus. SEVEN structure points!
Most of you will be more familar with the capabilities of the Acastus, but he seems a good support choice for those Titans that are slightly lacking in firepower. Cannot wait to field this chap!
New dice is welcome and looking good. Can't decide between them so probably end up getting both. Can never have enough dice!
Their special rule Artilery give them BS 3+ (if they didn't move??) Weapon seem to be 4 shot main guns, 6 shot missile pod, and 2 shot lascannon. Boy those admech techpriest sure beat themselves over the head for not giving the poor big titans some more lascannon turrets, or missile pods lol.
Command roll is bad but thanks to their rule (it said "increase to 3+) i guess they get 3+ even if they're broken.
But no matter how much Structure points they had, a single Critical hit would still vaporize them.
Well that's hugely disappointing, according to Garro30K on Facebook it looks like xttz's suspicions were correct; the Knight upgrade sprue is three gauntlets, three missile pods, two extra nipple-meltas, and a couple of heads.
Oh well, just means GW get less of my money and that's more of my army I can't show off on the main FB page(they're irrationally hostile towards 3D printing).
Yodhrin wrote: Well that's hugely disappointing, according to Garro30K on Facebook it looks like xttz's suspicions were correct; the Knight upgrade sprue is three gauntlets, three missile pods, two extra nipple-meltas, and a couple of heads.
Oh well, just means GW get less of my money and that's more of my army I can't show off on the main FB page(they're irrationally hostile towards 3D printing).
Ah, that is a bit naff I must say. Having to buy three boxes of Qs just to have at least 3 of the same weapon( never mind banners of six ) for a legal lance-banner is on the expensive side.
That said, they might include them in a resin kit with the unreleased Cerastus weapons( Boltcannon and Flammer ), under the name of "Knight Weapons". The Qs and Cs are already sharing the command terminal pack, so maybe thats what they have in mind...
Edit; I've made a mistake here - technically the Powerfist and Chainsword are both classed as a melee weapon. With the new upgrade kit - especially if it comes with the Questoris kit - it can indeed provide a legal lance-banner if it is equiped with those two melee weapons, and as they are cheap in points( 10 pts together ) the rocket pod can be affordable enough to provide ranged firepower. This would make them similar to the Cerastus Lancer.
Yodhrin wrote: Well that's hugely disappointing, according to Garro30K on Facebook it looks like xttz's suspicions were correct; the Knight upgrade sprue is three gauntlets, three missile pods, two extra nipple-meltas, and a couple of heads.
Oh well, just means GW get less of my money and that's more of my army I can't show off on the main FB page(they're irrationally hostile towards 3D printing).
Ah, that is a bit naff I must say. Having to buy three boxes of Qs just to have at least 3 of the same weapon( never mind banners of six ) for a legal lance-banner is on the expensive side.
That said, they might include them in a resin kit with the unreleased Cerastus weapons( Boltcannon and Flammer ), under the name of "Knight Weapons". The Qs and Cs are already sharing the command terminal pack, so maybe thats what they have in mind...
Edit; I've made a mistake here - technically the Powerfist and Chainsword are both classed as a melee weapon. With the new upgrade kit - especially if it comes with the Questoris kit - it can indeed provide a legal lance-banner if it is equiped with those two melee weapons, and as they are cheap in points( 10 pts together ) the rocket pod can be affordable enough to provide ranged firepower. This would make them similar to the Cerastus Lancer.
Do people actually quibble about wysiwyg with these models? It makes no odds to me as I don't game and would build them how I thought looked best no matter what, but it seems to me to be the easiest thing in the world (standard practice even, given what I've heard about how bad gatling is on these minis) for people to say "These knights all have Thermal lance and chainswords" (or whatever the good conficuration is).
Yodhrin wrote: Well that's hugely disappointing, according to Garro30K on Facebook it looks like xttz's suspicions were correct; the Knight upgrade sprue is three gauntlets, three missile pods, two extra nipple-meltas, and a couple of heads.
Oh well, just means GW get less of my money and that's more of my army I can't show off on the main FB page(they're irrationally hostile towards 3D printing).
Ah, that is a bit naff I must say. Having to buy three boxes of Qs just to have at least 3 of the same weapon( never mind banners of six ) for a legal lance-banner is on the expensive side.
That said, they might include them in a resin kit with the unreleased Cerastus weapons( Boltcannon and Flammer ), under the name of "Knight Weapons". The Qs and Cs are already sharing the command terminal pack, so maybe thats what they have in mind...
Edit; I've made a mistake here - technically the Powerfist and Chainsword are both classed as a melee weapon. With the new upgrade kit - especially if it comes with the Questoris kit - it can indeed provide a legal lance-banner if it is equiped with those two melee weapons, and as they are cheap in points( 10 pts together ) the rocket pod can be affordable enough to provide ranged firepower. This would make them similar to the Cerastus Lancer.
Do people actually quibble about wysiwyg with these models? It makes no odds to me as I don't game and would build them how I thought looked best no matter what, but it seems to me to be the easiest thing in the world (standard practice even, given what I've heard about how bad gatling is on these minis) for people to say "These knights all have Thermal lance and chainswords" (or whatever the good conficuration is).
I don't give a gnat's fart about wysiwyg, but if I was just going to slap whatever on there why even bother with models, I could just use counters. I want to give them the correct weapons because it looks better.
Its nice to make the AT models look accurate to the 28mm models, or there is no point in having such finely detailed models. Its not like we are quibbling about accurately modelled grenades on a Space Marine. Accurate weapon arms and easy access to fielding multiples of a specific loadout should not be that hard to sort out when designing the models and accessories.
but if I was just going to slap whatever on there why even bother with models, I could just use counters. I want to give them the correct weapons because it looks better.
Sounds to me that you care about WYSIWYG quite a bit...
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AegisGrimm wrote: Its nice to make the AT models look accurate to the 28mm models, or there is no point in having such finely detailed models. Its not like we are quibbling about accurately modelled grenades on a Space Marine. Accurate weapon arms and easy access to fielding multiples of a specific loadout should not be that hard to sort out when designing the models and accessories.
Yep. It is main gun on a model which is the size of a 28mm trooper.
AegisGrimm wrote: Its nice to make the AT models look accurate to the 28mm models, or there is no point in having such finely detailed models. Its not like we are quibbling about accurately modelled grenades on a Space Marine. Accurate weapon arms and easy access to fielding multiples of a specific loadout should not be that hard to sort out when designing the models and accessories.
So people do complain? Or are you talking about an ideal? (My question was not "Would you like all the weapon options", my answer to that would be yes. I'm more curious as to whether the lack of options ATM sees people running sub-optimal configurations. I read the Titanicus reddit and it seems like most people there play wysiwyg).
/edit - that first sentence should be "So do people complain?"
Well, I have been looking to get into AT from the release and the very first thing that irked me was the weapons configuration options of a box of Knights, and how only one of each main weapon comes in a box. I figured the first set of releases of weapons options for the larger Titans would also see a kit of weapons released for Knights so that a single box of three Knights + an "accessory pack" would let a player field three of any right weapon arm, plus maybe left arm and back options, although those two options could be just as easily left for an additional box of Knight types, and things could be mixed/matched like Space Marine arms in 40k.
I could see myself proxying the stubber/meltagun options as they are pretty tiny, but the main weapon arms would have to be WYSIWYG for any force of mine, just as if I was building, say, a box of Assault Marines.
but if I was just going to slap whatever on there why even bother with models, I could just use counters. I want to give them the correct weapons because it looks better.
Sounds to me that you care about WYSIWYG quite a bit...
You know that wysiwyg is a rules-first issue, right? It has nothing to do with the models' aesthetics, it's about supposedly making things easier to tell apart for your opponent during the game. I don't buy that at all, and in a game like Necromunda or Mordheim I'll make cool looking models first, and if anyone whinges about them having equipment that's not on the model or the reverse, I point them to the fully-detailed roster that's right there in front of them listing every detail of every model in my band.
I want the models to look as they should in regards to AT Knights & Titans because of the "cool looking models" part, I couldn't care less about any gameplay arguments for or against it. EDIT: And for clarity, in the games I have played, I used whatever weapons I pleased on the Titans, despite only having options from the default boxes at the time. That didn't stop me wanting to make them look "correct" as soon as the option was available.
WYSIWYG is not a rule, it just means the models have right gear regardless of the motivation for building them that way. Some care about it for gameplay reasons, some (like you and me) care about it for their personal aethetics OCD reasons.
Crimson wrote: WYSIWYG is not a rule, it just means the models have right gear regardless of the motivation for building them that way. Some care about it for gameplay reasons, some (like you and me) care about it for their personal aethetics OCD reasons.
I've literally never in ~25 years seen anyone advocate wysiwyg from anything other than a rules-based perspective until this very moment.
I don't know how you'd interpret my preference, but I field "cool-looking models" like you, but I always field them in-game with the weapons they're actually armed with. Doing it otherwise is ... icky.
No, I stated I desired to make the models the way I want them and the kit is frustrating that. What I'm saying is the actual term "WYSIWYG" has always, in my experience, specifically referred to making models accurate to their loadout for the purposes of gameplay/clarity for your opponent, and had nothing to do with aesthetics. The end result might be the same in this specific instance, but the reasoning behind either proposition is different, and will not result in the same outcome in all circumstances - as I pointed out with regards to Mordheim & Necromunda, where my desire to make models look good(to my own subjective taste, obviously) will run directly againstWYSIWYG in most cases.
WYSIWYG will *always* result in "the models match the rules". My approach only has that result in this specific case because it happens to coincide with the results of my actual motivations.
That is an utterly bizarre definition. You said you wanted to put rule appropriate gear on your knights. That is going for WYSIWYG. Your motivation doesn't change that.
Do people actually quibble about wysiwyg with these models? It makes no odds to me as I don't game and would build them how I thought looked best no matter what, but it seems to me to be the easiest thing in the world (standard practice even, given what I've heard about how bad gatling is on these minis) for people to say "These knights all have Thermal lance and chainswords" (or whatever the good conficuration is).
Well, I'm a casual player at heart, but if I were to take a game to a more involved level of play - say a tournament or other such event - then I could be on the receiving end of some "quibbling" if I haven't got the correct models. I'm finding Titanicus to be that kind of game for me.
Oh, with the new coordinated strike rule, the "gatlers" are now useful void shield strippers( sounds like an exotic dance troope! ), so long as they pass their command checks. If its the High Scion or Senecial banner then the chances of passing are very good.
Crimson wrote: That is an utterly bizarre definition. You said you wanted to put rule appropriate gear on your knights. That is going for WYSIWYG. Your motivation doesn't change that.
The motivation entirely changes it, what are you on about?
Intent > action > outcome.
My intent is to make cool models(to suit my own taste). My action is to make cool models. In this specific instance, the outcome is models that match(to some degree, I'll use however many meltanipples I like regardless of the models) their actual army list loadout.
The intent of WYSIWYG is to make models that match their loadout. The action is to build them with the options that match their loadout. The outcome is always models that match their loadout.
And once again, to illustrate the difference.
When I make a Mordheim warband my intent is to make cool models. My action is to make cool models. The outcome is models that almost never match their actual loadout on the roster, especially after several games have passed. Because that was never my objective.
WYSIWYG is not just a state in which a model exists, it's an approach to making models with a particular desired outcome, that's why it has its own well-known acronym.
Crimson wrote: WYSIWYG is not a rule, it just means the models have right gear regardless of the motivation for building them that way. Some care about it for gameplay reasons, some (like you and me) care about it for their personal aethetics OCD reasons.
I've literally never in ~25 years seen anyone advocate wysiwyg from anything other than a rules-based perspective until this very moment.
That's why I do wysiwyg, it makes things easier for me and my opponent during a game, and my personal OCD just wants things to be "right". I have been teaching my gf to play titanicus using her imperial knight as a warlord and armigers as reavers. I always have to ask her what weapon cards she's using and it slows the game down. I also have to pay attention when I'm moving that I don't forget what guns she has and move into range of something. I can't wait to get her proper titans built and magnetized.
Crimson wrote: That is an utterly bizarre definition. You said you wanted to put rule appropriate gear on your knights. That is going for WYSIWYG. Your motivation doesn't change that.
The motivation entirely changes it, what are you on about?
Intent > action > outcome.
My intent is to make cool models(to suit my own taste). My action is to make cool models. In this specific instance, the outcome is models that match(to some degree, I'll use however many meltanipples I like regardless of the models) their actual army list loadout.
The intent of WYSIWYG is to make models that match their loadout. The action is to build them with the options that match their loadout. The outcome is always models that match their loadout.
And once again, to illustrate the difference.
When I make a Mordheim warband my intent is to make cool models. My action is to make cool models. The outcome is models that almost never match their actual loadout on the roster, especially after several games have passed. Because that was never my objective.
WYSIWYG is not just a state in which a model exists, it's an approach to making models with a particular desired outcome, that's why it has its own well-known acronym.
This is getting truly bizarre, but I guess we're doing this, it's not like there's gonna any AT news. I was not talking about your Mordheim models, I haven't heard of them before you brough them up. I was takning about your non sequitur statements:
I want to give them the correct weapons because it looks better.
Right after saying that you don't care about WYSIWYG you express desire to build the models in WYSIWYG manner, thus you care about it, at least in this instance. "Giving the models correct weapons" is what WYSIWYG means!
The Meltanipples(TM) are way too small to differentiate from heavynipples(TM) - which don't appear to have any use in the game.
An alternative would have been to have a separate hole on the terminal to indicate the banner as being equiped with Meltanipples(TM) or Heavynipples(TM). Then just having a points cost for the banner as a whole.
Personally, I think the Knightnipples(TM) are easily damaged when removed from the sprue - especially the Metlanipple(TM).
"Meltanipple(s)", "Heavynipple(s)" and "Knightnipple(s)" are the strict trademarks of Yodhrin. All rights reserved.
Crimson wrote: That is an utterly bizarre definition. You said you wanted to put rule appropriate gear on your knights. That is going for WYSIWYG. Your motivation doesn't change that.
The motivation entirely changes it, what are you on about?
Intent > action > outcome.
My intent is to make cool models(to suit my own taste). My action is to make cool models. In this specific instance, the outcome is models that match(to some degree, I'll use however many meltanipples I like regardless of the models) their actual army list loadout.
The intent of WYSIWYG is to make models that match their loadout. The action is to build them with the options that match their loadout. The outcome is always models that match their loadout.
And once again, to illustrate the difference.
When I make a Mordheim warband my intent is to make cool models. My action is to make cool models. The outcome is models that almost never match their actual loadout on the roster, especially after several games have passed. Because that was never my objective.
WYSIWYG is not just a state in which a model exists, it's an approach to making models with a particular desired outcome, that's why it has its own well-known acronym.
This is getting truly bizarre, but I guess we're doing this, it's not like there's gonna any AT news. I was not talking about your Mordheim models, I haven't heard of them before you brough them up. I was takning about your non sequitur statements:
I want to give them the correct weapons because it looks better.
Right after saying that you don't care about WYSIWYG you express desire to build the models in WYSIWYG manner, thus you care about it, at least in this instance. "Giving the models correct weapons" is what WYSIWYG means!
Dude, all he means is that he doesn’t do it for a rules reason. Can we stop the semantics argument now?
I love AT. Like you, I'd like to see it receive many more expansions. Nevertheless, I understand that GW have many projects they're interested in pursuing; AI is one worth they're effort. As others have mentioned, I hope it's compatible with AT. If it isn't compatible with AT, I won't take it as a personal insult.
Honestly I think its better if they build towards epic through titanicus, then adding aeronautica (gives us the planes for it) then later add tanks and infantry. I remember being at the seminar last year and they talked about the issues they had with old epic and and titanicus, that its basically a dev sink, because once epic started people were not happy until every faction was in, or they add more stuff, and that Titanicus was basically killed off due to focus on Epic so they never had a chance to expand as much on titans.
Its most likely if Epic returns it will be horus heresy only, just because its easier, adapting just the HH line to that scale will likely use alot of resources let along doing 40k era.
I don't know if GW can even keep AT as pure HH only for its lifespan. The thing is Imperial VS Imperial is fun for only so long.
People want Chaos, they want Xenos - they want to see different design aesthetics and different races and forces and factions. Right now the only difference in AT is legion paintschemes and insignias and some minor rules alterations.
People want Knights with spikes on them and the fact that GW has done them for 40K means that its very likely we will see them appear for AT in the future; building into a full chaos release.
I've full expectation that if AT keeps selling well GW will expand it. Epic is a different kettle of fish and perhaps GW's plan is to slow grow it in stages with separate product lines.
Right now we'll have AT and Aeronautica - that's titans and air units that GW can develop as their own games on their own and expand at their own pace each. Now they might throw another 3rd game into the mix with only tanks, just tanks nothing else. Then they'd only have to add infantry (in the past they did that with one or two plastic boxes for each block of infantry - so its really quick and easy) to expand into a combined arms "epic game"
Epic would be nice but as predicted they have given us a second "epic-scale" game so soon after Titanicus. Thats pretty good.
Looking further down the road( next year )...probably tanks for Titanicus, and leave it at that. One of the main conflicts featured in the AT rule book described the traitors using tanks to ambush loyalist titans, so it seems likely. White Dwarf might print experimental rules for using imperial Aeronautica units in AT, but thats just a guess.
If Aeronautica has at least the Eldar then I'm game!
Oh, one last thought; the Orks could make their way into Titanicus through looted imperial titans and knights. Got a feeling deep down that this could happen as the Armageddon wars are very popular with 40K players and as AT is a game for more advanced players...converting existing warhounds and knights with resin conversion kits - or just encouraging players to let loose with some scary DIY - doesn't seem unreasonable. They could still use the imperial terminals, but include rules for pushing engines to dangerous levels to deliver extra speed and firepower - running the risk of blowing up! That would be a job for White Dwarf!
I certainly would prefer AT to be expanded into giant units of other factions rather than into the Epic direction. As I said in another thread (I think it was another thread and not this one...) buying same models in two different scales is not particularly interesting, so tiny 40K tanks or minuscule marines really do not appeal to me much. (I guess it would be cool to have some models for such just for scale establishing purposes, if the game doesn't focus on them.) But Titans and other giant things are either unusable or difficult to use in 40K, so there is less overlap.
I’m a casual player but WYSIWYG is still really important in a game that can take 3 hours. I hate having to manually keep track of which guys have meltas, which guy with an orange head has a plasma, whether the guys with no arms have missiles or auto cannons, etc.
My store has had people show up with partially assembled models and expected opponents to remember which of their IG models are actually assault marines or where their plasma guns are.
To me the lack of weapon options for my AT legios offered me a really fun opportunity to 3D print and scratch build a lot of fun weapon parts!
To me the lack of weapon options for my AT legios offered me a really fun opportunity to 3D print and scratch build a lot of fun weapon parts!
Being into the 3D art thing I would love to have a printer but the set up is a tad expensive for what it is. Although building titans, scenery and weapons from plasticard is a great hobby in itself, I must say.
totalfailure wrote: Disappointing to hear the Molech book was victim of the typical quality editing that seems to infest GW and the game industry in general these days. Is it too tough to have someone off of the design team proof the book before you send it off to the printers, and again before the print run? This lazy, sloppy stuff is getting old, like Warlord leaving a half page of significant rules out of the recent Erewhon book....
Ditch print for digital and this will not be as big of an issue. Until they embrace the 21st century, expect that these kinds of things will continue to not only happen, but be a large problem due to the time it takes to issue a fix!
I just want appropriate weapons for Titans and Knights because 90% of the spectacle of Adeptus Titanicus is marvelling at how detailed the tiny versions of what are normally huge 28mm models are, and how accurate those details are. Yeah, its also great to have WYSIWYG for better game flow, but it's also great for the cool-ness factor. I love seeing all the details being transferred over.
To me the lack of weapon options for my AT legios offered me a really fun opportunity to 3D print and scratch build a lot of fun weapon parts!
Being into the 3D art thing I would love to have a printer but the set up is a tad expensive for what it is. Although building titans, scenery and weapons from plasticard is a great hobby in itself, I must say.
Dunno about you Europeans but many public libraries in the US are doing 3D printing for free or dirt cheap. That’s how I did mine.
-The new Loyalist / Traitor stratagem cards are not just reprints of the main rule books cards - they include new cards as well. It was unclear if they include the stratagems from Doom of Molech or if they are entirely new.
-The special titans will include some special rules to make them stand apart from a standard chassis. It was unclear if they are limited to a specific Legio or if they can be added as reinforcements to any maniple.
-The Cerastus patterns that are currently missing (archaon and castigator) are being done in plastic and not as resin upgrades. They is currently no ETA on when they will be released.
-The team keen to also include the Mechanicum knights but are unclear on how they want to progress with them. Resin upgrades are one option as the distinctive difference is the carapace but the shin armour is also different. The current plastic kit has these moulded on but would it make a difference at this scale? Whatever the end result is, we will get Mechanicum knights but not for a while.
-A big emphasis, which has been consistent since the release of AT, has been that the team is not looking at adding infantry and tanks to this game. They are fully focused on creating background of engine battles rather than events where titans are merely there to provide fire support.
-This is one area that the AT team want to develop; the growing differences between Loyalist and Traitor. Through the use of stratagems and wargear - sometimes legio specific, the team want to begin to identify the changes between Loyalist and Traitor. In a game where there are only a small units, this is one of the things that can add greater differentiation between units and forces.
-These differences will be fed out through campaign books in the most part; there as discussion around the release of Mechanicum knights that could be linked to a book about Mechanicum vs. Dark Mechanicum for example. It was also mentioned about blackshield forces that have just walked away from both sides or declared their forge world or system independent.
-As well as the new scenery kits previewed, the designers also talked about me scenery like fortification lines, orbital defences and hive defences. This links back to the Titandeath campaign book or possibly future campaigns.
White Dwarf will soon include a feature about homebrew legios and give the option to create custom rules for your own legio rather than borrowing an existing Legios rules. This will take the form of a series of tables, one each for: Legio traits, Legio stratagems; Legio wargear and princeps traits. There will be 10 options in each table. Some of these will allow you to pick from existing Legio rules but others will be unique.
Also judging by that statement from the interview I don't see Knight Dominus or Armiger anytime soon, probably after all of the FW stuff are made. Those 2 would have been a real game changer for a Knight army.
And i will be making illegal Cerastus configuration just for display, because I think they look cool
SamusDrake wrote: The Meltanipples(TM) are way too small to differentiate from heavynipples(TM) - which don't appear to have any use in the game.
An alternative would have been to have a separate hole on the terminal to indicate the banner as being equiped with Meltanipples(TM) or Heavynipples(TM). Then just having a points cost for the banner as a whole.
Personally, I think the Knightnipples(TM) are easily damaged when removed from the sprue - especially the Metlanipple(TM).
"Meltanipple(s)", "Heavynipple(s)" and "Knightnipple(s)" are the strict trademarks of Yodhrin. All rights reserved.
Umm so either melta's would become LOT more expensive(everybody expected to have meltas) or LOT more powerful(all get melta for same price). As specific model which has melta is important you can't just go "this banner has 1 melta". either none have, all have or you need to be exact on what model has it. and for that wysiwyg is most easy way to identify.
Well blow me down. And they're extremely high resolution images as well.
They must be having real issues with their card accessory people if they're willing to give these away for free, and boy am I glad I put off buying extra terminals over and above the Rules box.
Interestingly they all say 'Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2020' rather than 2018/19. Was this adjusted layout developed for some release coming next year?
I feel like these guys just got brushed over in favour of arguing about knight weapons but they look awesome! Glad they decided to make the most badass knight available in plastic, it will definitely be getting added to my collection at some point.
Happy to see the return of Aeronautica Imperialis, I never got the chance to grab any of the models and if they get a plastic release this time round I will be all over it. Hopefully it is not just imperial vs imperial though, if GW are smart they will copy the success of X-Wing and have at least two factions from the get go.
Can't wait to use a Thunderbolt Squadro to crap all over the poor titan with no Anti air or turrets , I hope the void shield had rule to stop flyers from getting close.
At least the Techpriest realize that and add 2 AA turret to the Warbringer, oh the Flyer horror
Chopstick wrote: Can't wait to use a Thunderbolt Squadro to crap all over the poor titan with no Anti air or turrets , I hope the void shield had rule to stop flyers from getting close.
At least the Techpriest realize that and add 2 AA turret to the Warbringer, oh the Flyer horror
A single thunderbolt has 4 autocannons and 2 lascannons. Acastus knights have either two autocannons or two lascannon. So, a quick zoom on their previewed rules template and guess-extrapolating, a thunderbolt will deliver 2 Strength 4 hits and 2 strength 6 hits. Strong enough to dent shields, but most titans will be shrugging off those kind of weapons. Even 3-4 thunderbolts will struggle with a Warhound and that’s assuming above average rolling.
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