So has the black library preview been discussed? Just saw it on BOLS but haven't had time to open it up.

 Crablezworth wrote:

bodazoka wrote:



I believe that accumulative VP's and an ever changing mission structure goes some way to fixing some of the issues above. It is hard to sing the praises of this though as I don't have all the information, it could end up not being a fix but I do believe it is at least an attempt at a fix from GW. When 50 odd games are played and the people more knowledgeable than me on here figure it out I am sure we will have an answer.

Based on the cards we have seen it's just kinda arbitrary. Think of the scouring, you, just like me have likely experienced pretty bad luck in the distribution of vp's to objectives. The problem is that cards do a similar thing, of the 4 cards shown, 2 of them can potentially give the owning player vp's just for picking them up. That doesn't sound very fair to me.

If that's the way it pans out, where some of the cards are essentially "get points for existing" then the people playing a game could agree to ignore those ones.

It's an option I'm not saying it's a great solution... Mostly it continues to highlight the problem of "how can I have an enjoyable pickup game of 40k with people I don't know"?

 Happygrunt wrote:
So has the black library preview been discussed? Just saw it on BOLS but haven't had time to open it up.

The only new thing in there is that it seems to be formatted slightly better. Slightly.

 Crablezworth wrote:

bodazoka wrote:



I believe that accumulative VP's and an ever changing mission structure goes some way to fixing some of the issues above. It is hard to sing the praises of this though as I don't have all the information, it could end up not being a fix but I do believe it is at least an attempt at a fix from GW. When 50 odd games are played and the people more knowledgeable than me on here figure it out I am sure we will have an answer.

Based on the cards we have seen it's just kinda arbitrary. Think of the scouring, you, just like me have likely experienced pretty bad luck in the distribution of vp's to objectives. The problem is that cards do a similar thing, of the 4 cards shown, 2 of them can potentially give the owning player vp's just for picking them up. That doesn't sound very fair to me.

We have had this discussion on a previous thread I believe? I remember your avatar! haha

I some what agree with the randomness of the cards that you may get a better draw than your opponent (as everyone who plays mtg can attest) but I think it's a much better situation than the current version of VP's. I at least "feel" like I may pull a card that can turn the tide if it's random whilst if my opponent gets the big scouring objectives I know I'm cooked turn 2.

Back to the mtg analogy there have been plenty of times your under 10 life waiting for that one card in your deck you know is there that can turn the tide! <--- that feeling is a great addition to the game.

I also bet my house (not really) that this will open up the game more for a TO who now may only need to change certain cards to provide a more even meta. I would be very very surprised if we are not seeing alternative cards instead of alternative missions (or both) from TO's soon. Exciting times!

Well here's hoping the cards prove to be optional. I want context and objective placement to drive the game, I just don't really want the random. I'm sure the cards will be able to be used in many "home brew" ways that may be more palatable.


I was kinda sorta hoping they would fix objective placement in 7the edition. Right now because they forced fortifications into the game in 6th they also forced in the requirement that both player know what table side is theirs which really messes up objective placement.

In 5th it was a lot more honest because neither player could guarantee where their army would be deploying. But likely instead of pulling back, they will have pushed forward and added more... stuff. And you can buy it.


40k needed to get its butt on a treadmill and lose a few pounds, they weighted it down and made it pseudo apoc in its girth. GW is treating 40k like the extra pounds are just more to love. Where they (gw) see more cussion for the pushin I see possible death by mechanical asphyxia. I'm suffocating in stuff, content, crap, and the most annoying part is I have to learn what it is so I can say no. I'm stuck under the weight of 6th edition and 7th edition doesn't seem to be cleaning anything up.

You only use the tactical objectives with the maelstrom missions not the old missions.

Loopstah wrote:
You only use the tactical objectives with the maelstrom missions not the old missions.

-shrugs- Here's hoping they fixed the old missions before making new ones. Even cynical me is hoping there is a chance they've fixed stuff like certain armies moving the relic in multiple phases, objective placement in general, the distribution of vp's in the scouring, kill points (in their entirety), first blood, and so on.

They must have aced it to have had enough time to make whole other set of missions on top of the old ones in less than 2 years. A lot of hard work there, no doubt.

More is better than good. Brevity is banality. Random is easy, balance is hard. Create more content with fewer resources. When people take notice of the lower quality, produce more content. Do whatever, just buy our toys. A lot of'm, the big ones are better. Do you even knight bro?

 Crablezworth wrote:
Well here's hoping the cards prove to be optional.

Well the cards are optional in the sense that you can still play the old style missions. Even if you choose the new style, you can roll a D66 to generate the missions instead of drawing cards.

 Crablezworth wrote:

bodazoka wrote:



I believe that accumulative VP's and an ever changing mission structure goes some way to fixing some of the issues above. It is hard to sing the praises of this though as I don't have all the information, it could end up not being a fix but I do believe it is at least an attempt at a fix from GW. When 50 odd games are played and the people more knowledgeable than me on here figure it out I am sure we will have an answer.

Based on the cards we have seen it's just kinda arbitrary. Think of the scouring, you, just like me have likely experienced pretty bad luck in the distribution of vp's to objectives. The problem is that cards do a similar thing, of the 4 cards shown, 2 of them can potentially give the owning player vp's just for picking them up. That doesn't sound very fair to me.

To me that sounds extremely fair since both players have the chance to pick up the free points (provided none of them has rigged the deck ..).

 Bonesnapper wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

bodazoka wrote:



I believe that accumulative VP's and an ever changing mission structure goes some way to fixing some of the issues above. It is hard to sing the praises of this though as I don't have all the information, it could end up not being a fix but I do believe it is at least an attempt at a fix from GW. When 50 odd games are played and the people more knowledgeable than me on here figure it out I am sure we will have an answer.

Based on the cards we have seen it's just kinda arbitrary. Think of the scouring, you, just like me have likely experienced pretty bad luck in the distribution of vp's to objectives. The problem is that cards do a similar thing, of the 4 cards shown, 2 of them can potentially give the owning player vp's just for picking them up. That doesn't sound very fair to me.

To me that sounds extremely fair since both players have the chance to pick up the free points (provided none of them has rigged the deck ..).

That's a good point I didn't think of. In the scouring example the opponent on the big objectives is the only one (technically) that has a chance at that objective. With the cards you at least have the same chance for that objective as your opponent does.

 Bonesnapper wrote:
To me that sounds extremely fair since both players have the chance to pick up the free points (provided none of them has rigged the deck ..).

It's "fair" in the sense that both players have the same chance of getting game-winning luck, but when your opponent draws easy VP and you don't it's not going to be a very enjoyable game.

 Thud wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 xttz wrote:
GW did in fact make 7E just for him and his gaming group, and any other gaming groups just like it. They also made Rogue Trader, 2E, 3E, 4E, 5E and 6E for the same audience. This should be abundantly clear by now after years of this approach to game design. Wailing and gnashing of teeth on some random internet forum isn't going to change the 40k game into something it isn't and never has been.

I actually agree with this. They have always said it is a "beer and pretzels" game. The more recent editions lent themselves to expansive Tournament play, but it was never a game built for tournaments and the people that crave that sort of balance/gameplay. Now that it has shifted back toward its roots a bit (and added some more loose allowances), the people clamoring for balance and rigidity in the rules seem to be the event/tournament crowd. The casual gamer can just as easily discuss with his opponent beforehand about the game, but the tournament player builds armies, practices, tweaks their list, etc., so to have a rule(s) come out that could possibly shake up that ritual is disturbing.

But, in the end, it was a beer and pretzels game that got picked up by the tournament scene. Now that it has shifted away from that again, the group that it picked up along the way isn't happy about it, while the ones who are happy may not notice the change as starkly as the event-goer.

You're clearly not a tournament gamer then. And that's fine. Enjoy your game your way. But, if you were a tournament gamer, you'd be aware that the tournament gamers aren't the ones suffering the most from the messed up balance issues. When it comes to balance, tournaments are better than they ever were. Up until the current craziness you could in advance know which army, and more or less which army list, would win any given event. It's gone from BA Rhino Rush, to massive Eldar Seer Councils, to Iron Warriors, to Leafblowers, to Grey Knights. Now it's a toss-up. O'vesastar could win, but so could a Seer Council, or a Beastpack, or a Centurionstar, or a Farsight Bomb, or even Drop Wolves. Tournaments are fine. And tournament participants know what they're getting into. Want to win? Bring a great list and know how to use it. Same as it ever was, except more choice in lists.

But casual, just having a laugh, games are not fine. I have a casual Blood Angels list. It's a motley collection of units I like and that are painted well, that has grown over many years into what it is now. Most of the units used to be a part of a competitive list at some point in the past, others are just there because I thought they were cool. I love my Blood Angels, and I love that list. It's pretty much the definition of casual listbuilding and gaming, isn't it? Well, there's this guy at my club. He's a purely casual player (unlike me, who also enjoys tournaments), and he has the exact same kind of list, having built it up over many years, consisting of stuff he thinks is cool and likes to paint. He doesn't even have a single unit repeated in that list. Not even troops. Because he'd rather not paint the same thing twice. Some of the units he has are there just because he thinks the models and concepts are awesome. And, his list even follows an established background theme. Sounds like we'd have some great games together, right? Wrong. See, he plays Eldar. We've played a couple of games with these lists, and it's just ridiculous. It's such a one-way street that even deploying the armies is just a waste of time. Even though he's a great guy. Even though we approach the game in the same way.

And in comparison, I went to a tournament a couple of months ago with my hard-as-nails Taudar army, and had five close, super-fun games against five great guys.

That's why I want balanced rules. Not for tournaments, but for casual games.

I know it's a bit late, but I simply have to quote this part, since I find it very true in a lot of cases. My issue is with the way GW have been doing their codexes since 6th ed hit, is that two very casual people can collect rather random armies of great looking miniatures that they also find cool fluff wise, but the armies that the miniatures will build, will likely be no where near close in regards to power level on the table. For example: I have a small, elite, blinged out BA jump pack army, and all the pretty miniatures with cool gear will never get used, because they are utterly worthless on the table. They can't even remotely compete against anything else from 6th edition. The army is not even that old, but I have miniatures worth about the same as a WM or FoW army collecting dust, because taking them in a game is pointless.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
I would like to see the "you go, I go" mechanic removed.

Make it more action/response type.

I feel that removing IGYG would slow the game down even more. With the game expanding to 100+ models(generally speaking), I don't think it would really be feasible. And the difference in numbers of units on the field could just ruin the experience for one or both players- either someone gets extra turns, or one player gets a bunch of models that sit there for the entire game. The unit by unit works fine for smaller scale games, but I feel 40k has gotten a little too big for that. Not to mention the upkeep involved to remember who activated or not.

You could organize your army into "detachments" of several units which activate together.

Ever play Firestorm Armada? I've never seen a game with the 500-600 point starter set and 3 groups of ships per side completed in less than about 2 and a half hours, and that runs on activating different groups of ships in alternating player to player sequence per turn. Most often when I go down the club the regulars play 800 and that lasts all evening from about 7 to 11.

With 40k that would just be insane.

bodazoka wrote:
That's a good point I didn't think of. In the scouring example the opponent on the big objectives is the only one (technically) that has a chance at that objective. With the cards you at least have the same chance for that objective as your opponent does.

It hardly makes any difference. Before you had a chance to end up sitting on big objective, now you'll have a chance to get a card that is better for you. In the end it's still allowing random number to determine outcome of the game in a very direct manner, that's before mentioning that even cards themselves contain stuff like "get 1d3 points for...".

 Bonde wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 xttz wrote:
GW did in fact make 7E just for him and his gaming group, and any other gaming groups just like it. They also made Rogue Trader, 2E, 3E, 4E, 5E and 6E for the same audience. This should be abundantly clear by now after years of this approach to game design. Wailing and gnashing of teeth on some random internet forum isn't going to change the 40k game into something it isn't and never has been.

I actually agree with this. They have always said it is a "beer and pretzels" game. The more recent editions lent themselves to expansive Tournament play, but it was never a game built for tournaments and the people that crave that sort of balance/gameplay. Now that it has shifted back toward its roots a bit (and added some more loose allowances), the people clamoring for balance and rigidity in the rules seem to be the event/tournament crowd. The casual gamer can just as easily discuss with his opponent beforehand about the game, but the tournament player builds armies, practices, tweaks their list, etc., so to have a rule(s) come out that could possibly shake up that ritual is disturbing.

But, in the end, it was a beer and pretzels game that got picked up by the tournament scene. Now that it has shifted away from that again, the group that it picked up along the way isn't happy about it, while the ones who are happy may not notice the change as starkly as the event-goer.

You're clearly not a tournament gamer then. And that's fine. Enjoy your game your way. But, if you were a tournament gamer, you'd be aware that the tournament gamers aren't the ones suffering the most from the messed up balance issues. When it comes to balance, tournaments are better than they ever were. Up until the current craziness you could in advance know which army, and more or less which army list, would win any given event. It's gone from BA Rhino Rush, to massive Eldar Seer Councils, to Iron Warriors, to Leafblowers, to Grey Knights. Now it's a toss-up. O'vesastar could win, but so could a Seer Council, or a Beastpack, or a Centurionstar, or a Farsight Bomb, or even Drop Wolves. Tournaments are fine. And tournament participants know what they're getting into. Want to win? Bring a great list and know how to use it. Same as it ever was, except more choice in lists.

But casual, just having a laugh, games are not fine. I have a casual Blood Angels list. It's a motley collection of units I like and that are painted well, that has grown over many years into what it is now. Most of the units used to be a part of a competitive list at some point in the past, others are just there because I thought they were cool. I love my Blood Angels, and I love that list. It's pretty much the definition of casual listbuilding and gaming, isn't it? Well, there's this guy at my club. He's a purely casual player (unlike me, who also enjoys tournaments), and he has the exact same kind of list, having built it up over many years, consisting of stuff he thinks is cool and likes to paint. He doesn't even have a single unit repeated in that list. Not even troops. Because he'd rather not paint the same thing twice. Some of the units he has are there just because he thinks the models and concepts are awesome. And, his list even follows an established background theme. Sounds like we'd have some great games together, right? Wrong. See, he plays Eldar. We've played a couple of games with these lists, and it's just ridiculous. It's such a one-way street that even deploying the armies is just a waste of time. Even though he's a great guy. Even though we approach the game in the same way.

And in comparison, I went to a tournament a couple of months ago with my hard-as-nails Taudar army, and had five close, super-fun games against five great guys.

That's why I want balanced rules. Not for tournaments, but for casual games.

I know it's a bit late, but I simply have to quote this part, since I find it very true in a lot of cases. My issue is with the way GW have been doing their codexes since 6th ed hit, is that two very casual people can collect rather random armies of great looking miniatures that they also find cool fluff wise, but the armies that the miniatures will build, will likely be no where near close in regards to power level on the table. For example: I have a small, elite, blinged out BA jump pack army, and all the pretty miniatures with cool gear will never get used, because they are utterly worthless on the table. They can't even remotely compete against anything else from 6th edition. The army is not even that old, but I have miniatures worth about the same as a WM or FoW army collecting dust, because taking them in a game is pointless.

This is why I said earlier when you play almost any other miniature wargame out there you realize just how very bad Warhammer 40k is as a game. I would even go so far as to say it is now the worst rule set available on the market, yet they are expecting everyone to pay an astronomical premium as if it were the best on the market. GW is trying to sell you a Ford Focus at the price of an Aston Martin DB9, and so many are eating this up like sliced bread. Really does amaze me sometimes.

So far, everything that is known about 7th edition doesn't look like it is going to change this even one iota, but rather just layer on more junk on an already lousy system. Honestly, 40k is collapsing under it's own weight at this point and I don't see 7th edition doing anything to stop or change it.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 xttz wrote:
GW did in fact make 7E just for him and his gaming group, and any other gaming groups just like it. They also made Rogue Trader, 2E, 3E, 4E, 5E and 6E for the same audience. This should be abundantly clear by now after years of this approach to game design. Wailing and gnashing of teeth on some random internet forum isn't going to change the 40k game into something it isn't and never has been.

I actually agree with this. They have always said it is a "beer and pretzels" game. The more recent editions lent themselves to expansive Tournament play, but it was never a game built for tournaments and the people that crave that sort of balance/gameplay. Now that it has shifted back toward its roots a bit (and added some more loose allowances), the people clamoring for balance and rigidity in the rules seem to be the event/tournament crowd. The casual gamer can just as easily discuss with his opponent beforehand about the game, but the tournament player builds armies, practices, tweaks their list, etc., so to have a rule(s) come out that could possibly shake up that ritual is disturbing.

But, in the end, it was a beer and pretzels game that got picked up by the tournament scene. Now that it has shifted away from that again, the group that it picked up along the way isn't happy about it, while the ones who are happy may not notice the change as starkly as the event-goer.

You're clearly not a tournament gamer then. And that's fine. Enjoy your game your way. But, if you were a tournament gamer, you'd be aware that the tournament gamers aren't the ones suffering the most from the messed up balance issues. When it comes to balance, tournaments are better than they ever were. Up until the current craziness you could in advance know which army, and more or less which army list, would win any given event. It's gone from BA Rhino Rush, to massive Eldar Seer Councils, to Iron Warriors, to Leafblowers, to Grey Knights. Now it's a toss-up. O'vesastar could win, but so could a Seer Council, or a Beastpack, or a Centurionstar, or a Farsight Bomb, or even Drop Wolves. Tournaments are fine. And tournament participants know what they're getting into. Want to win? Bring a great list and know how to use it. Same as it ever was, except more choice in lists.

But casual, just having a laugh, games are not fine. I have a casual Blood Angels list. It's a motley collection of units I like and that are painted well, that has grown over many years into what it is now. Most of the units used to be a part of a competitive list at some point in the past, others are just there because I thought they were cool. I love my Blood Angels, and I love that list. It's pretty much the definition of casual listbuilding and gaming, isn't it? Well, there's this guy at my club. He's a purely casual player (unlike me, who also enjoys tournaments), and he has the exact same kind of list, having built it up over many years, consisting of stuff he thinks is cool and likes to paint. He doesn't even have a single unit repeated in that list. Not even troops. Because he'd rather not paint the same thing twice. Some of the units he has are there just because he thinks the models and concepts are awesome. And, his list even follows an established background theme. Sounds like we'd have some great games together, right? Wrong. See, he plays Eldar. We've played a couple of games with these lists, and it's just ridiculous. It's such a one-way street that even deploying the armies is just a waste of time. Even though he's a great guy. Even though we approach the game in the same way.

And in comparison, I went to a tournament a couple of months ago with my hard-as-nails Taudar army, and had five close, super-fun games against five great guys.

That's why I want balanced rules. Not for tournaments, but for casual games.

I know it's a bit late, but I simply have to quote this part, since I find it very true in a lot of cases. My issue is with the way GW have been doing their codexes since 6th ed hit, is that two very casual people can collect rather random armies of great looking miniatures that they also find cool fluff wise, but the armies that the miniatures will build, will likely be no where near close in regards to power level on the table. For example: I have a small, elite, blinged out BA jump pack army, and all the pretty miniatures with cool gear will never get used, because they are utterly worthless on the table. They can't even remotely compete against anything else from 6th edition. The army is not even that old, but I have miniatures worth about the same as a WM or FoW army collecting dust, because taking them in a game is pointless.

This is why I said earlier when you play almost any other miniature wargame out there you realize just how very bad Warhammer 40k is as a game. I would even go so far as to say it is now the worst rule set available on the market, yet they are expecting everyone to pay an astronomical premium as if it were the best on the market. GW is trying to sell you a Ford Focus at the price of an Aston Martin DB9, and so many are eating this up like sliced bread. Really does amaze me sometimes.

So far, everything that is known about 7th edition doesn't look like it is going to change this even one iota, but rather just layer on more junk on an already lousy system. Honestly, 40k is collapsing under it's own weight at this point and I don't see 7th edition doing anything to stop or change it.

Well i think it sounds like a lot of fun ( as it is intended to be) and look forward to playing it.

Some guy posted this on /tg:

I had two hours with this new rulebook this arvy and youre all going to disappointed how little has actually changed. The biggest most extreme stuff was in the wd last week. New missions and psychic phase other than that it's tweaks so insignificant you'll not notice them until someone calls you out on you doing the wrong thing a few months from now.

>snap shots are only -2bs
That's a made-up rumour.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Although honestly, I think GW should give up the ghost and make the game into a modular RPG system. It seems they're headed that way- forging a narrative, requiring opponent's permission, and the extra rules bloat(warlord traits and challenges spring foremost in my mind). A build your own rules system for playing 40k. Have a streamlined set, with optional extra content to add to your game.

So back to Rogue Trader then?

Isn't that where we're headed anyway?

 xttz wrote:
Some guy posted this on /tg:

I had two hours with this new rulebook this arvy and youre all going to disappointed how little has actually changed. The biggest most extreme stuff was in the wd last week. New missions and psychic phase other than that it's tweaks so insignificant you'll not notice them until someone calls you out on you doing the wrong thing a few months from now.

>snap shots are only -2bs
That's a made-up rumour.

The big question will be will people be $85 disappointed or $340 really disappointed....

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bonesnapper wrote:
To me that sounds extremely fair since both players have the chance to pick up the free points (provided none of them has rigged the deck ..).

It's "fair" in the sense that both players have the same chance of getting game-winning luck, but when your opponent draws easy VP and you don't it's not going to be a very enjoyable game.

As a partial fix, perhaps after you "play" an objective card, it remains in place and your opponent can score the same the next turn? Play the "capture objective 3" card and score points, then your opponent has to try to reclaim it and can score the same points if he does so. Play the "kill x units" card, and know that your opponent is just going to get those same points back if you don't protect your army. Could actually be interesting like that, and a bit more fair than "I got good cards, I win". Obviously the cards you draw would still make a difference, but you'd have to be far more tactical in how you use them.

Or we could try it a few times and see how it goes before declaring it broken instead of imagining the worst case scenario when we only know what less than 1/2 the cards say?

Also how is pulling a few gakky cards any different than rolling some gakky dice? It happens you can play around it or sit there and pout.

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Funny, for me and most people i know, it's easier to keep straight in the movement phase.

It's easier to remember in a shooting phase that you already ran that unit in the previous phase than it is to just run the unit in the shooting phase?


To each his own, I guess.

I think this really varies as to what army your playing.

Grey Knights.... run in the shooting phase.

Green Tide.... for the love of god, PLEASE move and run at the same time so you are not double moving 100+ models per turn.

And in 4Chan idiots chased off the guy who had read the new rulebook...

 Green is Best! wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Funny, for me and most people i know, it's easier to keep straight in the movement phase.

It's easier to remember in a shooting phase that you already ran that unit in the previous phase than it is to just run the unit in the shooting phase?


To each his own, I guess.

I think this really varies as to what army your playing.

Grey Knights.... run in the shooting phase.

Green Tide.... for the love of god, PLEASE move and run at the same time so you are not double moving 100+ models per turn.

Short of killing things(or not killing something) I always know what I am running in the shooting phase. Hell I really like doing it in the movement phase as I am more likely to forget to do it in the shooting phase.

 Crimson wrote:
And in 4Chan idiots chased off the guy who had read the new rulebook...

..who might have possibly read the new rulebook but forgot to take pictures or post any proof?

That's usually the case.

The other half of the 7E equation is the necessary Day One FAQs.

Will they be available Day One, that's the first check.

Second, do they address the actual issues that are within the books, regardless of edition change.

Third, how do they change the books with the edition.

This is almost as important or more than any rule change the new big rule book brings. If we have really seen the big changes as they stand now, then that's bad. None of that is showing an $85 value. If the FAQs are delayed, that's extremely bad as some units will be unplayable within the framework. I'll definately be soaking in the FAQs and reading the change summaries here and other

I'll be backing up copies of the 6E FAQs later today. Anyone know where I can get the 5E FAQs?

Looks like there are delays with the Munitorium edition. It won't be available for collection until Wednesday 28th due to an issue with it.

I imagine all the people who ordered one will be 10% annoyed and 90% quite happy about the result.

meh, it's not like GW has every done launch day delivery for me anyway.

Loopstah wrote:
Looks like there are delays with the Munitorium edition. It won't be available for collection until Wednesday 28th due to an issue with it.

I imagine all the people who ordered one will be 10% annoyed and 90% quite happy about the result.

Random delays help people Forge the Narrative in their day to day life in addition to the random tables in the game itself.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Although honestly, I think GW should give up the ghost and make the game into a modular RPG system. It seems they're headed that way- forging a narrative, requiring opponent's permission, and the extra rules bloat(warlord traits and challenges spring foremost in my mind). A build your own rules system for playing 40k. Have a streamlined set, with optional extra content to add to your game.

So back to Rogue Trader then?

Isn't that where we're headed anyway?

+1 FOR THE TRUTH

Where does it say that the Munitorum Edition has been delayed? =(

 Maddermax wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bonesnapper wrote:
To me that sounds extremely fair since both players have the chance to pick up the free points (provided none of them has rigged the deck ..).

It's "fair" in the sense that both players have the same chance of getting game-winning luck, but when your opponent draws easy VP and you don't it's not going to be a very enjoyable game.

As a partial fix, perhaps after you "play" an objective card, it remains in place and your opponent can score the same the next turn? Play the "capture objective 3" card and score points, then your opponent has to try to reclaim it and can score the same points if he does so. Play the "kill x units" card, and know that your opponent is just going to get those same points back if you don't protect your army. Could actually be interesting like that, and a bit more fair than "I got good cards, I win". Obviously the cards you draw would still make a difference, but you'd have to be far more tactical in how you use them.

We've seen 3 of the 6 Maelstrom missions (in some fashion) and the way you score the tactical objectives is quite varied in just the 3 we've seen so far:

In "Spoils of War" from the White Dwarf batrep, we learned that each player has a hand of 3 objectives, but they're visible to both players. In that variant, players can snatch objective cards from their opponent's hand if they hold the appropriate objective on the game table. That's really cool.

In the first Maelstrom mission (from the WD daily blog yesterday) we see that it's a generic setup with Vanguard Strike and each player has a hand of 3 objectives. That's the basic one, and i'm okay with that too.
The second one was really interesting to me - each player only starts with 1 tactical objective card. To draw more tactical objective cards they have to hold the placed objective markers at the start of their turn, and for each they control they get to draw an extra tactical objective card, to a max of 6. This means that players with more positional advantage on the table can draw more cards, getting "card advantage" over their opponent - very good for competitive gameplay.

I'm quite looking forward to 7th edition - saturday can't get here fast enough!

The collectors edition hasn't sold out this time round?

Even if it didn't, they would say it did.

Can't have the truth out there, can we?

doesnt one of the missions make fmcs into jmcs?

Loopstah wrote:
Looks like there are delays with the Munitorium edition. It won't be available for collection until Wednesday 28th due to an issue with it.

I imagine all the people who ordered one will be 10% annoyed and 90% quite happy about the result.

Not sure about this. I've already gotten my shipping email and the tracking number is live. I should be getting it Friday.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Looks like there are delays with the Munitorium edition. It won't be available for collection until Wednesday 28th due to an issue with it.

I imagine all the people who ordered one will be 10% annoyed and 90% quite happy about the result.

Not sure about this. I've already gotten my shipping email and the tracking number is live. I should be getting it Friday.

My order status still says Pending =( I ordered on Saturday

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Looks like there are delays with the Munitorium edition. It won't be available for collection until Wednesday 28th due to an issue with it.

I imagine all the people who ordered one will be 10% annoyed and 90% quite happy about the result.

Not sure about this. I've already gotten my shipping email and the tracking number is live. I should be getting it Friday.

Could be a UK only thing then? Mine is definitely delayed until next Wednesday and I pre-ordered at about 7:15 last Friday.

GW have been emailing people who are getting a delay.

How do you know if yours is delayed?

Noctem wrote:
How do you know if yours is delayed?

GW will email you.

It could just be a UK delay though.

Oh wow, just checked the tracking number again and delivery is now slated for tomorrow, 5/21!

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Oh wow, just checked the tracking number again and delivery is now slated for tomorrow, 5/21!

Make sure you spill the beans tomorrow night then.

I really want to know about Santic daemonology, precision shot and heavy vehicles.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Oh wow, just checked the tracking number again and delivery is now slated for tomorrow, 5/21!

Lucky!!!

Hmm worries me that I haven't gotten a tracking number, and order is pending on the site...

Latest from Archibald_TK over at warseer:

"I suppose I may dump a few info here unless someone already did it before. This is what I recall with my goldfish memory:

- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.
- Psykers level, Iron Will... only affect abjuration when you are targeted by the power, dispelling blessing requires natural rolls of 6, have fun.
- Chariots now gives relentless to the passenger, their rules were totally reworked so that they are more of a single entity with their passenger.
- Peril table, only a third is a real issue and a decent leadership severely diminish its impact. worse, one effect turns your psyker into superman for a turn. Another drains psychic dice for both players."

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Even if it didn't, they would say it did.

Can't have the truth out there, can we?

They haven't done that with the rest of the LE's that didn't sell out. They send a few emails with "quick, there's less than 200 left", and then swap them between stores.

Tyfus wrote:
Latest from Archibald_TK over at warseer:

"I suppose I may dump a few info here unless someone already did it before. This is what I recall with my goldfish memory:

- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.
- Psykers level, Iron Will... only affect abjuration when you are targeted by the power, dispelling blessing requires natural rolls of 6, have fun.
- Chariots now gives relentless to the passenger, their rules were totally reworked so that they are more of a single entity with their passenger.
- Peril table, only a third is a real issue and a decent leadership severely diminish its impact. worse, one effect turns your psyker into superman for a turn. Another drains psychic dice for both players."

These, I like. I'm not sure why, but I do!

Tyfus wrote:
Latest from Archibald_TK over at warseer:

"I suppose I may dump a few info here unless someone already did it before. This is what I recall with my goldfish memory:

- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.
- Psykers level, Iron Will... only affect abjuration when you are targeted by the power, dispelling blessing requires natural rolls of 6, have fun.
- Chariots now gives relentless to the passenger, their rules were totally reworked so that they are more of a single entity with their passenger.
- Peril table, only a third is a real issue and a decent leadership severely diminish its impact. worse, one effect turns your psyker into superman for a turn. Another drains psychic dice for both players."

So that Demons burning chariot will be usable now? That's good news at least.

Chariots finally useful!?

Sounds too good, so must be false.

Herzlos wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Even if it didn't, they would say it did.

Can't have the truth out there, can we?

They haven't done that with the rest of the LE's that didn't sell out. They send a few emails with "quick, there's less than 200 left", and then swap them between stores.

There were 2000 available when pre orders went live.

Currently, they're showing over 350 available on the UK site, and over 400 available on the US site. So that's almost half accounted for without all the territories that don't have an "only x available" stamp on their website.

That's pretty grim in terms of sales then. Possibly only 1000 sold?

I think the sales for the standards will be find but a special edition that's 4x the normal cost is a bit much even for hardcores to swallow. I like what seems to actually come in it but LE 40k stuff just isn't my bag. I'd rather buy the rulebook and Horus Heresy 2 & 3 for the same price.

Wait, cheaper....

Tyfus wrote:
- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.

Sad news indeed
I really liked the -2BS rumor

Anyone every confirm/deny the rumor that no moving gave BS2 snapfire? I'm assuming it was not true, since that would be game changing (esp for IG and Tau) if true.

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty grim in terms of sales then. Possibly only 1000 sold?

Yeah they only made £200,000 from about £100 worth of paper and carboard, sounds really grim :(

 xttz wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty grim in terms of sales then. Possibly only 1000 sold?

Yeah they only made £200,000 from about £100 worth of paper and carboard, sounds really grim :(

Indeed, but these collectors editions (of larger runs) used to sell out in hours rather than days or weeks, so there are a lot less buyers.

 gozer il gozeriano wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.

Sad news indeed
I really liked the -2BS rumor

No, I think it would make snapshots too powerful. At -4BS I could get behind it. Now really high does some good, but everyone else is just hoping.

Herzlos wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty grim in terms of sales then. Possibly only 1000 sold?

Yeah they only made £200,000 from about £100 worth of paper and carboard, sounds really grim :(

Indeed, but these collectors editions (of larger runs) used to sell out in hours rather than days or weeks, so there are a lot less buyers.

That's the only way they are going to listen.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:Oh wow, just checked the tracking number again and delivery is now slated for tomorrow, 5/21!

Hooray! Share any tau-relevant information, mate!

Tyfus wrote:Latest from Archibald_TK over at warseer:

"I suppose I may dump a few info here unless someone already did it before. This is what I recall with my goldfish memory:

- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.
- Psykers level, Iron Will... only affect abjuration when you are targeted by the power, dispelling blessing requires natural rolls of 6, have fun.
- Chariots now gives relentless to the passenger, their rules were totally reworked so that they are more of a single entity with their passenger.
- Peril table, only a third is a real issue and a decent leadership severely diminish its impact. worse, one effect turns your psyker into superman for a turn. Another drains psychic dice for both players."

I didn't get the meaning of the bolded part. Abjuration = Blessings? And what's Iron Will - Adamantium Will, perhaps? Makes sense if its bonus does not help denying Blessings
Chariots giving Relentless? Finally!

Shandara wrote:Chariots finally useful!?

Sounds too good, so must be false.

Ha! Have an exalt!

More from same source at warseer:

"Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that). The most favorable result nets you a 3++ save and I think the additional effects are smash, armorbane and fleshbane until the next Psychic phase (I was reading a foreign page and understanding what a translated USR is can be a real pain).

Allies table made me laugh. They don't even bother separating the Imperial Forces (I'm pretty sure even the GK were bundled into it). The table read like this:
Imperial Forces: We welcome our new glorious Overlords, here is a cake.
Other peasants: You shall be ashamed for not being Imperial and we will ensure you will be.

Battle Brothers share basically everything, Powers, abilities, transports, Warlord traits, Reserve altering effects."

And even more:

"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

For the delayed munitorium editions I am curious why you left out the part about the people are getting the standard edition, a voucher and then the limited edition when the problem is resolved?

BS rumor confirmed so thats nice. I think the new relentless rules make the chimera and the militarum tempestus taurox make more sense.

Relentless hotshot volley guns...yes please.

coredump wrote:

 gozer il gozeriano wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
- Snapshots are at BS1 sorry.

Sad news indeed
I really liked the -2BS rumor

No, I think it would make snapshots too powerful. At -4BS I could get behind it. Now really high does some good, but everyone else is just hoping.

Of course you are right. It was my hate for Chaos Dragons speaking.......
although I'd prefer a malus to a general rule rather than a new rule

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That's pretty grim in terms of sales then. Possibly only 1000 sold?

Yeah they only made £200,000 from about £100 worth of paper and carboard, sounds really grim :(

Indeed, but these collectors editions (of larger runs) used to sell out in hours rather than days or weeks, so there are a lot less buyers.

That's the only way they are going to listen.

My thought exactly!

 Leth wrote:
For the delayed munitorium editions I am curious why you left out the part about the people are getting the standard edition, a voucher and then the limited edition when the problem is resolved?

Because the people affected would know that anyway, and those not affected might feel they missed out.

 Leth wrote:
I think the new relentless rules make the chimera and the militarum tempestus taurox make more sense.

Relentless hotshot volley guns...yes please.

Which new relentless rules? Did I miss something?

Warseer dude:

A little correction as some people were wondering what I was saying. When I said in a previous post "affect your abjuration" what I meant was "affect your dispelling attempt roll".

Some other thing before I forget, Gate of Infinity is now on the Sanctic list and one of the Sanctic powers is a strength D Vortex. I'm pretty sure a lot of the powers from the GK Codex like Hammerhand are now there.

 Leth wrote:
For the delayed munitorium editions I am curious why you left out the part about the people are getting the standard edition, a voucher and then the limited edition when the problem is resolved?

So the collectors edition pre order now get the standard edition as well, and then the collectors edition when it's ready? Seems like the Munitorum edition is worth it now

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Loopstah wrote:

 Leth wrote:
For the delayed munitorium editions I am curious why you left out the part about the people are getting the standard edition, a voucher and then the limited edition when the problem is resolved?

Because the people affected would know that anyway, and those not affected might feel they missed out.

Okay because it sounded like you were giving people bitching bait intentionally. If you have a legitimate gripe that is fair but to intentionally withhold information to make someone look worse is pretty low.

It said above that it was rumored that transports gave their passengers relentless finally.

 xttz wrote:
Warseer dude:

A little correction as some people were wondering what I was saying. When I said in a previous post "affect your abjuration" what I meant was "affect your dispelling attempt roll".

Some other thing before I forget, Gate of Infinity is now on the Sanctic list and one of the Sanctic powers is a strength D Vortex. I'm pretty sure a lot of the powers from the GK Codex like Hammerhand are now there.

I was actually thinking of selling my unbuilt Grey Knight army. Now I think I'll keep it. An army full of psykers generating a ton of warp charge and chucking about D vortexes, along with Scoring Dreadknights and landraiders, thank you GW.

Loopstah wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Warseer dude:

A little correction as some people were wondering what I was saying. When I said in a previous post "affect your abjuration" what I meant was "affect your dispelling attempt roll".

Some other thing before I forget, Gate of Infinity is now on the Sanctic list and one of the Sanctic powers is a strength D Vortex. I'm pretty sure a lot of the powers from the GK Codex like Hammerhand are now there.

I was actually thinking of selling my unbuilt Grey Knight army. Now I think I'll keep it. An army full of psykers generating a ton of warp charge and chucking about D vortexes, along with Scoring Dreadknights and landraiders, thank you GW.

I have reason to fear my Mrs' GK again :(

 Leth wrote:

Okay because it sounded like you were giving people bitching bait intentionally. If you have a legitimate gripe that is fair but to intentionally withhold information to make someone look worse is pretty low.

It might have seemed that way, I just didn't want to brag. GW Customer service are my favourite people at the minute, and I'll happily shout out that when GW drop the ball they make up for it big time. I'm annoyed they can't get me my box on time (as I probably wont be able to collect it till the Saturday after) but the reparations are more than worth the delay. So 10% annoyed, 90% happy.

 TheKbob wrote:
The other half of the 7E equation is the necessary Day One FAQs.

Will they be available Day One, that's the first check.

Second, do they address the actual issues that are within the books, regardless of edition change.

Third, how do they change the books with the edition.

This is almost as important or more than any rule change the new big rule book brings. If we have really seen the big changes as they stand now, then that's bad. None of that is showing an $85 value. If the FAQs are delayed, that's extremely bad as some units will be unplayable within the framework. I'll definately be soaking in the FAQs and reading the change summaries here and other

I'll be backing up copies of the 6E FAQs later today. Anyone know where I can get the 5E FAQs?

something i must say, i just realised my CSM digi codex will get auto updated to 7th ed riiight? i mean not a 7th ed codex, BUT the rules and other changes should be in there for 7th ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The collectors edition hasn't sold out this time round?

sold out in aus in under a day

 xttz wrote:
Some guy posted this on /tg:

I had two hours with this new rulebook this arvy and youre all going to disappointed how little has actually changed. The biggest most extreme stuff was in the wd last week. New missions and psychic phase other than that it's tweaks so insignificant you'll not notice them until someone calls you out on you doing the wrong thing a few months from now.

>snap shots are only -2bs
That's a made-up rumour.

IF this is correct, I can guarantee I'm not buying a book until the minibooks start showing on ebay or I can find someone to split the repackaged DV with me. 85.00 for what would amount to about 80% of the same material as the book I have and a whole book of pictures I won't even open is crappy even for GW. For 6th edition I went to a midnight release at my LGS; for this one, I don't even care to get a book. At the least, I will wait for a couple of reviews (again thanks in advance to Clockwork Zion for taking on this task) before I jump in at all. I don't want to quit this game - I like my models, I like the story, I like the people I play with, but the game itself is really not very good. It just seems like GW has given up on trying to make an actual game, and just tries to shoehorn in whatever they think is cool.

Tyfus wrote:More from same source at warseer:

"Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that). The most favorable result nets you a 3++ save and I think the additional effects are smash, armorbane and fleshbane until the next Psychic phase (I was reading a foreign page and understanding what a translated USR is can be a real pain).

So taking perils with a high Ld model is actually a good thing, lol.

Loopstah wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Okay because it sounded like you were giving people bitching bait intentionally. If you have a legitimate gripe that is fair but to intentionally withhold information to make someone look worse is pretty low.

It might have seemed that way, I just didn't want to brag. GW Customer service are my favourite people at the minute, and I'll happily shout out that when GW drop the ball they make up for it big time. I'm annoyed they can't get me my box on time (as I probably wont be able to collect it till the Saturday after) but the reparations are more than worth the delay. So 10% annoyed, 90% happy.

Sorry to jump down your throat. There is just non-stop negativity and pessimism here about things that are most likely not going to be a problem in 5 days...hard not to let it get to ya. Just want to enjoy talking about my toy soldiers and everyone gives you non stop gak for actually being positive or excited. That or imply you are an idiot for enjoying/paying for the game.

Lol I had to quit the forums at one point for 6 months just because it was pretty bad and was actually negatively impacting my day to day. Negativity is contagious.

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Grav centurions approve of this change, heartily.

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

Edit: never mind, misread that

Figured most of the Sanctic table would be GK codex powers.

Depends on which ones now.

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

I don't know, harder to ground is good. Even if it accidentally spills over to Nids and was meant for Deamon Princes

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit, just because there is one possible result that makes psykers stronger when they perils (who knows if they still take a wound too...) doesn't mean that they will be getting stronger every time. I can only assume that if it's true, that buff will be a result of double 1's on the LD test or something similar.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

Spiritseer for Iyanden/Wraithguard lists, Warlocks for Seer Council Deathstar, Primaris Psyker

 Leth wrote:


Lol I had to quit the forums at one point for 6 months just because it was pretty bad and was actually negatively impacting my day to day. Negativity is contagious.

Good advice there, actually, but...

Have you checked out your avatar lately?!?

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit, just because there is one possible result that makes psykers stronger when they perils (who knows if they still take a wound too...) doesn't mean that they will be getting stronger every time. I can only assume that if it's true, that buff will be a result of double 1's on the LD test or something similar.

Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

 Lobukia wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

Unless like me you don't run FMCs, so grounding checks don't matter one iota.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

I think you're blowing this out of proportion a bit, just because there is one possible result that makes psykers stronger when they perils (who knows if they still take a wound too...) doesn't mean that they will be getting stronger every time. I can only assume that if it's true, that buff will be a result of double 1's on the LD test or something similar.

Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Exactly my point. I also am not blowing anything out of proportion. I stated I was keeping an open mind until release. Until then we have only leaks to chat about. This leak, may well be false, but is very annoying if true regardless of how the mechanic works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

The issue is, and again this is based on speculation, that in a d6 system that usually uses tables based on a pair at most of said dice. "the stars align" way more often then should be represented. Even if its on snake eyes, your telling me the stars align every thirty six times on average? Its fine in the fluff but hilariously stupid to add such content outside of RPG's. Just my 2 cents anyway.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Tyfus wrote:


"Immobilized results affect flyers differently now, they have a chance to immediately send it Crash and Burn. Coupled with Target Lock now serving a purpose on non-blast weapons, it ends up being a nice boost to the poor DA flyer."

But immobilized is now the "6" on the table, right? So really no change at all.

Actually it's basically a perk since you can't get V-locked

Man this release is looking worse as the veil is lifted. Still waiting to see it, but I am not surprised all the early acclaim fall flat. So potentially fliers are better, psychers get stronger the more they perils (seriously find me a non LD10 psycher that is taken seriously) and a vindicare and a grot still snap fire with consistently similar results

Spiritseer for Iyanden/Wraithguard lists, Warlocks for Seer Council Deathstar, Primaris Psyker

Spirit seers suck, and warlocks are not taken seriously, if they were you wouldn't need 8 of them i8n order to guarantee the two needed powers go off. The lynch pin is the farseers which are LD what again?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

It's slightly different in that your opponent probably didn't do anything to force the perils, so a positive result on the chart isn't really taking away from anything they did. I understand, and agree, that a table of "Bad Things" should be actual Bad Things but given the capricious way that the Warp is described (and the things that dwell in it), I'm okay with an occasional result not being completely Bad.

We'll just have to see how "occasional" it is.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

The benefits of the warp are the powers that are being attempted. I have never heard of fortune coming from perils though I will admit I don't read every tidbit the black library dishes out.

@Red Corsair I don't disagree that perils should be all bad, I was just chuckling when you said something to the effect of "psykers will get more powerful every time they perils." You were, in fact, blowing that a bit out of proportion haha. Hopefully it will be a very slim chance of positive, very good chance of negative, and slight chance of utter doom.

The issue is, and again this is based on speculation, that in a d6 system that usually uses tables based on a pair at most of said dice. "the stars align" way more often then should be represented. Even if its on snake eyes, your telling me the stars align every thirty six times on average? Its fine in the fluff but hilariously stupid to add such content outside of RPG's. Just my 2 cents anyway.

I think it falls in line with forging the narrative disclaimer.

A random benefit from Perils is in line with their omgrandom approach to game design lately. Even Tyranids can get positive results from failing IB tests.

Remember that a lot of things need to line up for this positive effect to happen:
1) Perils has to occur in the first place, which apparently isn't possible on 1 charge dice and is 1/36 chance on 2.
2) The user has to roll the 'good result'
3) They will then need to pass a Ld test.

It's not going to happen every game.

Archibald_TK on Warseer wrote:
Crude explanation: You must manage as many successes on your dispel dice than your opponent did when casting the spell. Your target number on the die to qualify as a success is 6. Things like Adamantium Will or having a Higher level caster in the unit (or withing Hood range) each gives you a +1 to your roll.
If it's a blessing you are attempting to deny, you can no longer benefits from these +1 modifiers thus must hope for natural 6.

Blessings are still the best.

Edit: Also, Hello.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

Archibald_TK on Warseer wrote:
Crude explanation: You must manage as many successes on your dispel dice than your opponent did when casting the spell. Your target number on the die to qualify as a success is 6. Things like Adamantium Will or having a Higher level caster in the unit (or withing Hood range) each gives you a +1 to your roll.
If it's a blessing you are attempting to deny, you can no longer benefits from these +1 modifiers thus must hope for natural 6.

Blessings are still the best.

Edit: Also, Hello.

"Within range" makes me sad for Gloom Prisms and their tiny bubble.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
@Red Corsair I don't disagree that perils should be all bad, I was just chuckling when you said something to the effect of "psykers will get more powerful every time they perils." You were, in fact, blowing that a bit out of proportion haha. Hopefully it will be a very slim chance of positive, very good chance of negative, and slight chance of utter doom.

Fair enough, I was just thinking on an army wide scale. I play so many fething demon an eldar armies it basically skews the odds of it happening from once every few games to probably more then once every game. Again I have no idea what the final iteration will be, and your right, it may be nothing. But it's hard not to assume it will be poorly written given the design studios track record. Not being cynical, but being practical here. Every edition the studio tries to invent a new cinematic mechanic it's laced with holes and imbalance. I hope this in fact is a very minor hick up. I have a feeling however it will resemble the chaos boon table with LD altering the roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
A random benefit from Perils is in line with their omgrandom approach to game design lately. Even Tyranids can get positive results from failing IB tests.

Remember that a lot of things need to line up for this positive effect to happen:
1) Perils has to occur in the first place, which apparently isn't possible on 1 charge dice and is 1/36 chance on 2.
2) The user has to roll the 'good result'
3) They will then need to pass a Ld test.

It's not going to happen every game.

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that you forgot to account for the new disciplines and how they force perils on any double for none GK/CD meaning its possible to "fish" for effects that could be game altering. Who knows exactly how it will end up working, but it's safe to assume the studio wasn't accounting for people to fish for perils either. Maybe it's nothing, maybe this is another silly pit fall based on their, ham fist unneeded mechanics, approach they love taking. I won't hold my breath however.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
@Red Corsair I don't disagree that perils should be all bad, I was just chuckling when you said something to the effect of "psykers will get more powerful every time they perils." You were, in fact, blowing that a bit out of proportion haha. Hopefully it will be a very slim chance of positive, very good chance of negative, and slight chance of utter doom.

Fair enough, I was just thinking on an army wide scale. I play so many fething demon an eldar armies it basically skews the odds of it happening from once every few games to probably more then once every game. Again I have no idea what the final iteration will be, and your right, it may be nothing. But it's hard not to assume it will be poorly written given the design studios track record. Not being cynical, but being practical here. Every edition the studio tries to invent a new cinematic mechanic it's laced with holes and imbalance. I hope this in fact is a very minor hick up. I have a feeling however it will resemble the chaos boon table with LD altering the roles.

Lol I guess I'm with you there - I have absolutely no hope for the dozens of mechanics that will be ruined by the psychic phase even in the few armies I have myself. How/when will force weapons work? When will hammerhand be activated? How will the +3 LD to Tzeentch psychic tests be changed if at all? How will the various mechanics that affect DtW rolls be changed? There are some other DtW modifiers like 4D6 rolls that also need to be addressed, and I have no faith in GW to do any of that on day 1 of the release. Shadow in the warp also seems pretty useless now as well unless they FAQ it, as well as the handful I obviously am missing.

On a positive note, having to put the grimoire on a unit prior to activating forewarning but after the movement phase makes for quite the nerf to the Screamerstar. You can no longer see if you'll get a 2+++ (Unless these have been capped, but I somehow doubt that too) before moving into position or deciding to run away and hide. Spehss Chikin' seems to be unchanged though, he'll be chuckling with his apparently single grounding test per phase and a built in 4++.

Overall, I'm in wait and see mode because I think at least some of the things I've heard are positive and nothing else that is going to ruin the game for me in my meta. I do get the feeling games will be taking quite a bit longer in the near future, though.

The Ld things like tzeentch and SitW makes perfect sense if the whole LD to save against perils is a thing.

As well the 4d6 tau talisman can easily just add the free dice if targeted by powers within range.

Ether way anything that lets me attempt to counter blessings is a +1 in my books

 Alpharius wrote:

 Leth wrote:


Lol I had to quit the forums at one point for 6 months just because it was pretty bad and was actually negatively impacting my day to day. Negativity is contagious.

Good advice there, actually, but...

Have you checked out your avatar lately?!?

He gets more smiles than anything else, gotten a few PMs saying it made someone laugh or at least gotten a chuckle. Spreading positivity yo!

We still dont know what the roll is for grounding tests. If it is a 5+ instead of a 3+ now its better but its not all doom and gloom for non fliers.

We now have the potential to stop blessings where only space wolves had the ability before. A chance is better than no chance. Same with those armies with no psykers, they now have A chance to stop things. In addition the number of powers cast per caster has gone down significantly. What used to be 1 per mastery level will most likely be 1/2 or less per mastery level in casted powers with a guaranteed deny attempt.

Armys heavily reliant on casters are going to get fewer powers off and they are going to be less reliable. I dont see how that is the casting phase getting a huge boost.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
On a positive note, having to put the grimoire on a unit prior to activating forewarning but after the movement phase makes for quite the nerf to the Screamerstar. You can no longer see if you'll get a 2+++ (Unless these have been capped, but I somehow doubt that too) before moving into position or deciding to run away and hide. Spehss Chikin' seems to be unchanged though, he'll be chuckling with his apparently single grounding test per phase and a built in 4++.

That's an interesting point. I run a grimoire, but it's more to keep Fateweaver from dying. I'll sometimes use it on a DP though.

Overall I'm happy about the psychic phase, more due to my general tendency towards sloppy play. I constantly forget to use my psychic powers before starting to move something, and having it all occur in a single phase will help. I used to do the same thing with Flamers. I'd get so excited that I landed a Deep Strike where I wanted it that I'd immediately bust out the flamer template and start rolling wounds and just skip my entire Movement phase.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

Precisely. Perils should always, always, always be a bad thing as you get punished for bad plays. If there even is one chance to get a good result, it's poor game design as it rewards bad plays. Jesus, this is game design 101. Like, really, really basic game design.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

Precisely. Perils should always, always, always be a bad thing as you get punished for bad plays. If there even is one chance to get a good result, it's poor game design as it rewards bad plays. Jesus, this is game design 101. Like, really, really basic game design.

Except Perils isn't a result of a 'bad play', it's the result of a 'bad roll'.

A 'bad play' is leaving a unit in the wrong place, or being aggressive when you should be defensive. Attempting to use powers that you paid for, or that your entire army might be build around (Daemons for example) isn't a 'bad play'.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isn't it called Perils of the Warp for a reason rather than Boost of the Warp - I dont really see why there should be anything positive on the "bad news" chart - even WFB magic miscasts don't (yet) do that

Havent they always said how unpredictable the Warp is? Having one good effect that is probably obtained when the stars align doesnt really go against that. The rest of the table is probably still bad news

Yeah but the whole point is that is a "perils" table when bad things happen? Isn't it a bit like having a table for vehicle damage where you get a hull point back if you opponent rolls a 1?

Precisely. Perils should always, always, always be a bad thing as you get punished for bad plays. If there even is one chance to get a good result, it's poor game design as it rewards bad plays. Jesus, this is game design 101. Like, really, really basic game design.

Yea dont know how rolling doubles equates to a bad play, its more bad luck.

Desubot wrote:The Ld things like tzeentch and SitW makes perfect sense if the whole LD to save against perils is a thing.

As well the 4d6 tau talisman can easily just add the free dice if targeted by powers within range.

Ether way anything that lets me attempt to counter blessings is a +1 in my books

True, some may still work but the Tzeentch one I'd really like to see modified. It was a good rule, especially for Pink Horrors and other low LD psychic shooting units, but now that everyone is on the exact same level it becomes pretty much pointless. I feel like a 3+ success instead of 4+ on psychic test dice might be a bit much, but I'd prefer if it was something more like that.

undertow wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
On a positive note, having to put the grimoire on a unit prior to activating forewarning but after the movement phase makes for quite the nerf to the Screamerstar. You can no longer see if you'll get a 2+++ (Unless these have been capped, but I somehow doubt that too) before moving into position or deciding to run away and hide. Spehss Chikin' seems to be unchanged though, he'll be chuckling with his apparently single grounding test per phase and a built in 4++.

That's an interesting point. I run a grimoire, but it's more to keep Fateweaver from dying. I'll sometimes use it on a DP though.

Overall I'm happy about the psychic phase, more due to my general tendency towards sloppy play. I constantly forget to use my psychic powers before starting to move something, and having it all occur in a single phase will help. I used to do the same thing with Flamers. I'd get so excited that I landed a Deep Strike where I wanted it that I'd immediately bust out the flamer template and start rolling wounds and just skip my entire Movement phase.

I have pretty much only used grimoire on Fateweaver as well, and I doubt that strategy will change at all with the new edition. I was never particularly interested in running a screamerstar so that doesn't matter to me, and despite having far fewer instances of the unkillable Lord of Chance trucking his way into CC I think the change makes it much more of a tactical decision which is good.

I guess one could say ploughing too many dice into casting one specific power and therefore increasing your odds of perilling could be called "bad play" but I'd say that's a little harsh.

Of course, if the Perils table isn't sufficiently negative, that might actually become a tactic!

Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

Unless like me you don't run FMCs, so grounding checks don't matter one iota.

I've got a message for you from GW. "Flying Circus is the only way we would like anyone to play Tyranids. That is why we made Hordes suck via Synapse, and MC's suck via removal of biomancy and Mycetic Spores. We can't get rid of Tyranids, but we can limit them to a mono-build. People didn't really get the hint, so we are changing vector strike to be D6 hits and AP2, and limiting grounding tests to 1 per turn. Also we are going to change the vehicle Pen table to make sure that Carnifexes can't deal with vehicle at all, and change the psychic phase so that Zoenthrope's pitiful ability to pop vehicles is nerfed. If you continue to stubbornly insist that you can play non-flying circus tyranids, we will release FAQs to nerf MC's and Hoards further until you take the hint. Are you ready for Toughness 4 Tyrannofexes?"

 ausYenLoWang wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The collectors edition hasn't sold out this time round?

sold out in aus in under a day

Hang on so the area famed for it's wailing and gnashing of teeth regarding regional pricing, who state wages are not really high there due to the cost of living etc is the first and only place to sell out of the ultra expensive edition

Ironically, the Aussie edition is priced at $360, which is actually slightly cheaper than the UK version on today's exchange rates!

SeanDrake wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
The collectors edition hasn't sold out this time round?

sold out in aus in under a day

Hang on so the area famed for it's wailing and gnashing of teeth regarding regional pricing, who state wages are not really high there due to the cost of living etc is the first and only place to sell out of the ultra expensive edition

To be fair, wasn't the Australian price for the LE $360? Compared to the usual mark-up they get that's like Black Friday. Then there's the question of how many copies were allotted to Australia. Europe has 400 left, UK (incl. Scandinavia and Rest of the World) has 368, and North America has 416.

Deshkar where did you see that if I may ask?

 azreal13 wrote:
Ironically, the Aussie edition is priced at $360, which is actually slightly cheaper than the UK version on today's exchange rates!

It's $400 in Canada... which means with exchange rates it's cheaper to buy it from Australia... Whhhhat?!

tag8833 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

Unless like me you don't run FMCs, so grounding checks don't matter one iota.

I've got a message for you from GW. "Flying Circus is the only way we would like anyone to play Tyranids. That is why we made Hordes suck via Synapse, and MC's suck via removal of biomancy and Mycetic Spores. We can't get rid of Tyranids, but we can limit them to a mono-build. People didn't really get the hint, so we are changing vector strike to be D6 hits and AP2, and limiting grounding tests to 1 per turn. Also we are going to change the vehicle Pen table to make sure that Carnifexes can't deal with vehicle at all, and change the psychic phase so that Zoenthrope's pitiful ability to pop vehicles is nerfed. If you continue to stubbornly insist that you can play non-flying circus tyranids, we will release FAQs to nerf MC's and Hoards further until you take the hint. Are you ready for Toughness 4 Tyrannofexes?"

Why do you have to be right?

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

Well, at least vehicles can breathe against smash. But letting it be AP2 even in normal attacks was the best thing about Smash

Darn, Riptides now care about personal space.

About VS, 1 AP2 Ignores Cover isn't that scary...

tag8833 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

Unless like me you don't run FMCs, so grounding checks don't matter one iota.

I've got a message for you from GW. "Flying Circus is the only way we would like anyone to play Tyranids. That is why we made Hordes suck via Synapse, and MC's suck via removal of biomancy and Mycetic Spores. We can't get rid of Tyranids, but we can limit them to a mono-build. People didn't really get the hint, so we are changing vector strike to be D6 hits and AP2, and limiting grounding tests to 1 per turn. Also we are going to change the vehicle Pen table to make sure that Carnifexes can't deal with vehicle at all, and change the psychic phase so that Zoenthrope's pitiful ability to pop vehicles is nerfed. If you continue to stubbornly insist that you can play non-flying circus tyranids, we will release FAQs to nerf MC's and Hoards further until you take the hint. Are you ready for Toughness 4 Tyrannofexes?"

Why you gotta be like that GW? Why can't I keep trucking with a carpet of gaunts and warriors? What's that? I can, but only if I drop 8 bucks on the Endless Swarm dataslate?

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

pretty sure IC's have never been allowed to join MC.

does this mean no more buffmander and riptide combo?
Tau are being bullied a little!

Deshkar wrote:


Prescience is still a Primaris.

This makes my guard happy.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

The real question is: what did they do to assault? Can you assault out of transports (with relentless, perhaps)?

 Vector Strike wrote:


Well, at least vehicles can breathe against smash. But letting it be AP2 even in normal attacks was the best thing about Smash

Darn, Riptides now care about personal space.

About VS, 1 AP2 Ignores Cover isn't that scary...

Great now i have the visuals of a hell drake picking up a terminator and dropping it from height to get into the meaty goodness inside. not unlike a hawk.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

Other than Smash only being one attack a lot of that makes more sense. So vector strikes become really good against fliers but meh against ground targets. Any word on if you can swap for the primaris? or do you only get it by specializing? ICs cant be in the same unit as MC kills the Riptide army singlehandedly. So they buffed fliers a little bit but took them down a significant notch.

I like it. Suprised at prescience as the primaris but if it goes to warp charge 2 it will still be a tough call. Still for 10 points mystics become auto takes in my henchmen squads now. So now its 18 points for a mastery level 1 scoring unit, so 54 points for three charges. Not bad, now to find the points.....

Hmm So Smash only 1 attack - pity that you can only ever hit on a 3+ - stupid GW and its shooting bias......... :(

They really should fix the WS vs WS table, high BS gets 2+ and re-rolls

So where the heck is the sanctic chart? People DO have the book, right?

Wilson wrote:

pretty sure IC's have never been allowed to join MC.

does this mean no more buffmander and riptide combo?
Tau are being bullied a little!

Not really sure why you thought that wasn't allowed.
Riptides are MC.
Commanders (IC) can join Riptide (MC).

Carnifexes are MC.
Tyranid Primes(IC) can join Carnifexes (MC).

The limitation is only units "that are always a single model", so things like the Wraithknight, Wraithlord, Tyranofex, Exorcine, Dreadknight, etc. can't be joined.

Edit: Smash dropping you to only 1 attack is a serious kick in the bio-engineered goonya of Tyranids. Tervigons, Trygons, Tyranofexes, even Hive Tyrants. Suddenly opening tanks got a lot harder for Nids.

No pictures yet.. so I'm salting these rumors.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

Being invisible makes you immune to templates?

 Colpicklejar wrote:
So where the heck is the sanctic chart? People DO have the book, right?

Sorry if you already read this and wanted a photo of the actual chart but I read on Warseer that the Santic powers are all the GK powers + VOD @ Strength D.

I only read it earlier in the day when i got my copy before going for work, so I only really recall the highlights, precise details like exact warp charges, I can't remember.

Yes, you get primaris if you roll entirely on the same table for the psyker.

Sanctic.
Primaris - Banishment anti-demon (-1invuln)
Gate of Infinity.
Hammerhand
Str D Vortex.
Sanctuary , iirc makes demon within 12" all move like DT.
Cleansing Flame (some nova)
One more spell, you target an opponent, both roll dice and add to ld, if you're higher than him, he auto losses a W, no saves.

Precision shot is a USR now, so guards need 6s to do precision after that Order.

Str D now only ignores all saves on a six. If not a six, the Str D weapon profile's AP is followed. Str D is also assumed to be S10.

Deny the Witch for passive spells, like blessings are denied on a six. However offensive/directed/maledictions spells that target you, is a different matter, your DTW rolls can be improved. So you could technically go up to a 3+ dtw against offensive powers.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

tag8833 wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Tyfus wrote:
Going from memory yes wounds/HP loss are here on the majority of effects, usually as the "better" effect that you get from a successful Ld test (results on the table read as "Take Ld test, success= suffers this, failure= suffers that).

Why do I see Shadows in the Warp not getting any change at all, since the Ld penalty would now have an actual (although pathetically minor) penalty for psykers?

Because doing anything else might be a boon to the Nids and we all know GW can't give the Nids anything since they are already Soooooo OP.......

If the grounding checks are as soft as rumors say... you'll be just fine

Unless like me you don't run FMCs, so grounding checks don't matter one iota.

I've got a message for you from GW. "Flying Circus is the only way we would like anyone to play Tyranids. That is why we made Hordes suck via Synapse, and MC's suck via removal of biomancy and Mycetic Spores. We can't get rid of Tyranids, but we can limit them to a mono-build. People didn't really get the hint, so we are changing vector strike to be D6 hits and AP2, and limiting grounding tests to 1 per turn. Also we are going to change the vehicle Pen table to make sure that Carnifexes can't deal with vehicle at all, and change the psychic phase so that Zoenthrope's pitiful ability to pop vehicles is nerfed. If you continue to stubbornly insist that you can play non-flying circus tyranids, we will release FAQs to nerf MC's and Hoards further until you take the hint. Are you ready for Toughness 4 Tyrannofexes?"

That's sadly accurate and the same story with Sisters of Battle. The email I got from them read something like "Yes, we heard the customer's complaints that the Penitent Engines and Repentia were barely useable. On behalf of Gamesworkshop I'd like to offer our apology. Our intent was to make sure that those units were completely useless. Upon release of the 6th digital only codex, we will be giving further nerfs to those units in order to limit the possible builds for the Sisters of Battle Army. We really don't want you to feel that you have enough choices for an already limited army. We apologize and hope you will be patient while we look for further ways to limit your army."

And then 7th comes out with a psyker phase...just for psykers. SOB don't have psykers.
Thank you GW! You know exactly what us players want!

Maybe SOB and Nids should be Battle Brothers.

 Leth wrote:

I like it. Suprised at prescience as the primaris but if it goes to warp charge 2 it will still be a tough call.

Though primaries changed around as well If that was confirmed. where you need to have all rolls in one discipline to get the primaries for free (cant really complain as divination had some nice stuff)

 streamdragon wrote:

Wilson wrote:

pretty sure IC's have never been allowed to join MC.

does this mean no more buffmander and riptide combo?
Tau are being bullied a little!

Not really sure why you thought that wasn't allowed.
Riptides are MC.
Commanders (IC) can join Riptide (MC).

Carnifexes are MC.
Tyranid Primes(IC) can join Carnifexes (MC).

The limitation is only units "that are always a single model", so things like the Wraithknight, Wraithlord, Tyranofex, Exorcine, Dreadknight, etc. can't be joined.

I Haven't played a nid army that has done before that + I wasn't aware that other armies where doing this as well as Tau.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

And nothing of value was lost.

And then 7th comes out with a psyker phase...just for psykers. SOB don't have psykers. Thank you GW! You know exactly what us players want!

Maybe SOB and Nids should be Battle Brothers.

Still worried not seen any reference to Sororitas in the fluff leaks....................

However if Adamantium Will is any good for the DTW rolls - thats nice.........

 streamdragon wrote:

Wilson wrote:

pretty sure IC's have never been allowed to join MC.

does this mean no more buffmander and riptide combo?
Tau are being bullied a little!

Not really sure why you thought that wasn't allowed.
Riptides are MC.
Commanders (IC) can join Riptide (MC).

Carnifexes are MC.
Tyranid Primes(IC) can join Carnifexes (MC).

The limitation is only units "that are always a single model", so things like the Wraithknight, Wraithlord, Tyranofex, Exorcine, Dreadknight, etc. can't be joined.

Edit: Smash dropping you to only 1 attack is a serious kick in the bio-engineered goonya of Tyranids. Tervigons, Trygons, Tyranofexes, even Hive Tyrants. Suddenly opening tanks got a lot harder for Nids.

Same for Daemons. Monstrous Creaters in CC was my only reliable way to do it. Although the last game I played, a Puppet Mastered Wraithknight opened a few cans for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

Good.

Syphid wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

Being invisible makes you immune to templates?

Which is very counter-intuitive.

"Sir! Something in sector 4 is shooting at us, but it’s not showing up on the auspex and nobody has spotted it.”
“Have the Whirlwinds put a few volleys into the zone, and then move up the flamer teams and scorch the area. .Burn them out”

Blasts and templates should be the answer for things you can’t see.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Precisely. Perils should always, always, always be a bad thing as you get punished for bad plays. If there even is one chance to get a good result, it's poor game design as it rewards bad plays. Jesus, this is game design 101. Like, really, really basic game design.

You realize who we're talking about here, right? The same folks who thought unlimited dice in a power pool to get off one spell was a good idea? And most fantasy daemon players were happy to sacrifice their wizard just to get the irresistible roll because that is just how bad those OP spells were (and still are to some extent).

Randomness is part of the allure of playing OnG in fantasy. These charts are not rare there, as the WoC have them as well as Perils version for wizards.

Wizards have always been a crap shoot, pending on the army as there is always a way around the chart per army specific rules.

Making 40k more like Fantasy should make me like it a lot more - but I'm still not seeing it, even with all the information coming out.

My thought is they will make Fantasy more like 40k in that it may become squad based and give bonuses base on squad size.

Beware if Tzch casters get anything related to a "purple sun"...

Deshkar wrote:
I only read it earlier in the day, so I only really recall the highlights, precise details like exact warp charges, I can't remember.

Yes, you get primaris if you roll entirely on the same table for the psyker.

Sanctic.
Primaris - Banishment -> anti-demon (-1invuln)
Gate of Infinity.
Hammerhand
Str D Vortex.
Sanctuary , iirc makes demon within 12" all move like DT.
Cleansing Flame (some nova)
One more spell, you target an opponent, both roll dice and add to ld, if you're higher than him, he auto losses a W, no saves.

Precision shot is a USR now, so guards need 6s to do precision after that Order.

Str D now only ignores all saves on a six. If not a six, the Str D weapon profile's AP is followed. Str D is also assumed to be S10, so yah T6 don't get one shoted! D


Deny the Witch for passive spells, like blessings are denied on a six. However offensive/directed/maledictions spells that target you, is a different matter, your DTW rolls can be improved by brother ofpsyker +1, psyker mastery level being higher than the offensive caster+1 and adamantium will +1. So you could technically go up to a 3+ dtw against offensive powers.

added more interesting stuffs that I can recall. about the DTW.

Hmm intresting... definatly intresting.. not sure I like the Smash, only one attack, but the rest sounds good (ah well nids will just need to be pushed further back onto there shelf.. might even cover them in some necrons..)

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

That brings up a curious situation... an IC that cannot join any other IC (unless there is an exception)

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

That brings a curious situation... an IC that cannot join any other IC (unless there is an exception)

Would being Farsight body guard still allow him to be with the other bodyguards + farsight?

Deshkar wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

That brings a curious situation... an IC that cannot join any other IC (unless there is an exception)

Would being Farsight body guard still allow him to be with the other bodyguards + farsight?

I was just about to ask that!

 MWHistorian wrote:
And then 7th comes out with a psyker phase...just for psykers. SOB don't have psykers.

On the other hand, we have no flyers or FMC either.

Wilson wrote:

Deshkar wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

That brings a curious situation... an IC that cannot join any other IC (unless there is an exception)

Would being Farsight body guard still allow him to be with the other bodyguards + farsight?

I was just about to ask that!

In fact, not letting O'Vesa join Farsight squad goes against the Farsight Enclaves idea of 'The Eight'.
Geedubs, geedubs...

Deshkar wrote:
I only read it earlier in the day, so I only really recall the highlights, precise details like exact warp charges, I can't remember.

Yes, you get primaris if you roll entirely on the same table for the psyker.

Sanctic.
Primaris - Banishment -> anti-demon (-1invuln)
Gate of Infinity.
Hammerhand
Str D Vortex.
Sanctuary , iirc makes demon within 12" all move like DT.
Cleansing Flame (some nova)
One more spell, you target an opponent, both roll dice and add to ld, if you're higher than him, he auto losses a W, no saves.

Precision shot is a USR now, so guards need 6s to do precision after that Order.

Str D now only ignores all saves on a six. If not a six, the Str D weapon profile's AP is followed. Str D is also assumed to be S10, so yah T6 don't get one shoted! D


Deny the Witch for passive spells, like blessings are denied on a six. However offensive/directed/maledictions spells that target you, is a different matter, your DTW rolls can be improved by brother ofpsyker +1, psyker mastery level being higher than the offensive caster+1 and adamantium will +1. So you could technically go up to a 3+ dtw against offensive powers.

Unfortunate blessings are only denied on a 6 and nothing can affect that. Though hopefully they'll be harder to get off now.

Though I'm hoping now my GK units gets their choice on what powers they want instead of automatically assigned powers.

@deshkar: thanks for sharing. How does ally chart look (interested in necrons) and how are the levels of alliance changed if at all (ie desperate, battle brothers, ect.) in terms rules.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

This is really bad for Tyranids if true.

I would be really disappointed to find no change to the Ignores Cover rule. The -2 rumor was exciting because it was a game changer and made cover viable again whilst making Helldrakes and Tau a little more manageable.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Precisely. Perils should always, always, always be a bad thing as you get punished for bad plays. If there even is one chance to get a good result, it's poor game design as it rewards bad plays. Jesus, this is game design 101. Like, really, really basic game design.

You realize who we're talking about here, right? The same folks who thought unlimited dice in a power pool to get off one spell was a good idea? And most fantasy daemon players were happy to sacrifice their wizard just to get the irresistible roll because that is just how bad those OP spells were (and still are to some extent).

Randomness is part of the allure of playing OnG in fantasy. These charts are not rare there, as the WoC have them as well as Perils version for wizards.

Wizards have always been a crap shoot, pending on the army as there is always a way around the chart per army specific rules.

Making 40k more like Fantasy should make me like it a lot more - but I'm still not seeing it, even with all the information coming out.

My thought is they will make Fantasy more like 40k in that it may become squad based and give bonuses base on squad size.

Beware if Tzch casters get anything related to a "purple sun"...

Exactly - it was never really the magic "phase" that was the problem - it was the insane spells that could obliterate entire units. Even though every result on the miscast table was "bad", most of the results were pitiful compared to the devastation a wizard could cause with the right spell.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

And nothing of value was lost.

I'm a Tau player and I agree. O'Vesastar was an abomination as are all deathstars tbh.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
And then 7th comes out with a psyker phase...just for psykers. SOB don't have psykers.

On the other hand, we have no flyers or FMC either.

You will soon, it's called the "Holy Discontinuous"...

And cheer up - SoB will be the Dwarves in space.

Things I'm interested in:

Any thing that disallows 2++ rerolls
Changes to assault/disembarking
Cover save modifiers (additions and changes)

To me, these will make or break this edition... but certainly some could be covered in FAQs

I'm with Lobukia.

Everything else is just icing. If assault and cover can be rectified, and the most extreme deathstar builds shored up a bit, I'm satisfied.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.

Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Telepathy Powers
Invisisbilty - makes others snapfire at you.
Shrouding - gives you shrouded only.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

If true, O'vesa star just died.

And nothing of value was lost.

I'm a Tau player and I agree. O'Vesastar was an abomination as are all deathstars tbh.

Ditto but I would have liked to have seen the 2+ reroll stars get hit first.
still hoping for something!

The rumoured change to Smash is intriguing. It would make things like Contemptors and Decimator Daemon Engines viable in CC against most MCs. They are immune to regular attacks thanks to AV 13, and only one S10 Smash attack that may only hit on 4s in some cases isn't that scary.

The Vector Strike change would be a nerf to Heldrake. I'd rather it stay the same as before, but I'm willing to adapt.

2+ re-roll stars got hit with the unreliability of powers, the dice pool limiting the ability to reliably stack powers, as well as people having the opportunity to stop powers.

Ovesa stars got hit by ics not being able to join MC units(but nothing stopping Ovesa from joining a unit without an MC)

Sisters/BT have built in adamantium will as well as battle brothers with armys that have lots of psykers. You can get 3 more dice from inq for 54 points as well as two null rods for pretty cheap if you are really worried about it.

The change to Jink has a big impact on wave serpent spam

The change to vector strike and smash has a huge impact on FMCs

We still have no idea how special rules might change so it is premature to know how its all going to work together

Did I miss any?

Wilson wrote:

...I would have liked to have seen the 2+ reroll stars get hit first.
still hoping for something!

I'm really hoping that a failed power can't be recast that turn, or something along those line (but I think we'd already seen that in the pages revealed so far). The fact that the GW morons thought their Captain and Chappy was getting too much play and Libby wasn't, really makes me question their understanding of their own system/rules... we just really need blessings to be easier to shutdown/counter... and stupid Battle Brothers interactions too... how can they not understand how their own games works after 2 years?!! While I don't excuse it, I can accept by now that they can't competently playtest... but at least get the in-game dynamics after everyone has play tested it for you.

Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

So, looking at how the psychic stuff impacts my Thousand Sons (or, for that matter, a lot of the CSM armies if they use Sorcerers).

Aspiring Sorcerers...hmmmm. Well, they're only ML1, and can't upgrade. They'll always get two powers, one rolled for and the Tzeentch primaris power. I was initially worried about the bit in the aligned chaos psychic powers rules that limits them to only half of their powers being able to come from a god-specific lore, but the wording specifies that they can only ROLL for up to half (rounded up) of their powers on a god-specific chart. The extra primaris power isn't rolled for, so every one of my Aspiring Sorcerers will have Tzeentch's Firestorm in addition to whatever else they roll.

Now, the flip side of it. All of my other Sorcerers will either have exactly the same small set of powers that the Aspiring Sorcerers do (bleah), or, if above ML1, will never get the free primaris power.

Interesting...some good, some bad. Still have to deal with the continual disdain that Game Development seems to have for Thousand Sons.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

What's vegetables got to do with Deathstars?

Hhhhmmmmm?

 Lobukia wrote:

Wilson wrote:

...I would have liked to have seen the 2+ reroll stars get hit first.
still hoping for something!

I'm really hoping that a failed power can't be recast that turn, or something along those line (but I think we'd already seen that in the pages revealed so far). The fact that the GW morons thought their Captain and Chappy was getting too much play and Libby wasn't, really makes me question their understanding of their own system/rules... we just really need blessings to be easier to shutdown/counter... and stupid Battle Brothers interactions too... how can they not understand how their own games works after 2 years?!! While I don't excuse it, I can accept by now that they can't competently playtest... but at least get the in-game dynamics after everyone has play tested it for you.

I wouldn't be surprised to Fantasy's "if a wizard fails to reach the casting value of the spell = no more casting that turn" rule come into play.

At very least though, if someone is still going to aim for a Screamerstar build, they now have to:
1. Commit to their movement before their added psychic buffs are even attempted.
2. Roll enough casting dice to basically guarantee the power goes off, perhaps risking a much greater chance of Perils than the current 2/36 chance
3. Hope their opponent doesn't just chuck a million deny dice into stopping the critical Blessing from going off.

That's at least a decent nerf compared to the current 0 risk beyond failing a Ld10 check before you even move your deathstar, thus allowing you to automatically move it out of sight should something go wrong.

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.
Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

What. bs. Nerfing Vector Strike? Why?
Nerfing *SMASH*?! Seriously?
Lets go ahead and nerf the Swarmlordstar a tiny bit more.

Oh, and the most overpowered Primaris? Yeah, we'll leave that alone.

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

rigeld2 wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.
Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

What. bs. Nerfing Vector Strike? Why?
Nerfing *SMASH*?! Seriously?
Lets go ahead and nerf the Swarmlordstar a tiny bit more.

Oh, and the most overpowered Primaris? Yeah, we'll leave that alone.

Yeah... It does seem a little backwards.

I've never thought to myself " Woah... Those 2 attacks my Riptide just missed with where way too good. "

+I Never had any beef with Vector strike either - thought it was perfectly okay!

with the Prescience being the primaris still - I suppose as you can only cast one spell per unit per turn - it'll be easier to deny now thus reducing its impact on the game.

So they nerf existing deathstars but introduce unbound which will in turn introduce 10^26 deathstar combinations in the coming months when people start brainstorming.

Also, nice Straken nerf. He was already bordering on uselessness. Along with Nids taking even more of a beating.

Here is to hoping Deshkar is trolling us....

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

 Sir Arun wrote:
So they nerf existing deathstars but introduce unbound which will in turn introduce 10^26 deathstar combinations in the coming months when people start brainstorming.

Also, nice Straken nerf. He was already bordering on uselessness. Along with Nids taking even more of a beating.

Seriously, what group of vet players will allow unbound if its getting abused? Are people so weak willed that they can't have some influence on the game types that they play?

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

A lot of pent-up frustration at a design team for a game I used to find very enjoyable. I'll eventually flame out. My better posts have already been removed from this thread.

The current game has evolved considerably since the early days and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not married to any particular army and have played most of them in one form or another during different editions.

Back on topic - Does anyone know what Tyranid Hive Fleet Jes played in the WD? I don't recognize the coloring or was that just a custom coloring?

coredump wrote:
Here is to hoping Deshkar is trolling us....

There's still that tiny glimmer of hope!

Its tuesday and people they have seen the books, where are the scans?

 Sir Arun wrote:
So they nerf existing deathstars but introduce unbound which will in turn introduce 10^26 deathstar combinations in the coming months when people start brainstorming.

Also, nice Straken nerf. He was already bordering on uselessness. Along with Nids taking even more of a beating.

Folks who want to use the current crop of deathstars have largely already bought them. The soon to be created ones haven't been bought yet and we all know that buying is the best part of the Hobby!

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

Ground based vehicles have gotten super buffed dude. Now scoring, potentially have objective secured from the troops slot, might be giving transported dudes relentless while inside, harder to destroy....AWESOME SAUCE

Also dude I totally get the negativity, I have felt it myself over the years(you should have seen me after I saw flier spam at the start of 6th at nova). But then I decided I could either pack up run, or find ways to enjoy it. I realized that it was easier to change my approach and throughly enjoy the game, be excited and look towards ways I could have fun. In addition I dont assume that they are going to screw it up, for things I am hesitant about I wait for more information, for things I am positive about I think "that could be cool" but still wait for more information.

Also I choose to keep most negativety to myself. That gak is contagious and I always remember that there are other people on the other end of the internet. I dont want to be responsible for making anyone feel worse, Instead I try to create a positive outlook and environment I love this hobby and I know we got a lot of new people getting started and good or bad this hobby is still a positive in my life and I want to share that.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its tuesday and people they have seen the books, where are the scans?

If I get mine tomorrow expect a deluge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

Ground based vehicles have gotten super buffed dude. Now scoring, potentially have objective secured from the troops slot, might be giving transported dudes relentless while inside, harder to destroy....AWESOME SAUCE

So essentially 5th ed parking lots again? awesome.

Wilson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Smash, only one attack. rest of it same.
Vector Strike. 1A only unless against a flier then D3, AP2 Ignore Cover.
Ignore Cover - No change.
ICs cannot be in the same unit as a MC anymore.

Prescience is still a Primaris.

What. bs. Nerfing Vector Strike? Why?
Nerfing *SMASH*?! Seriously?
Lets go ahead and nerf the Swarmlordstar a tiny bit more.

Oh, and the most overpowered Primaris? Yeah, we'll leave that alone.

Yeah... It does seem a little backwards.

I've never thought to myself " Woah... Those 2 attacks my Riptide just missed with where way too good. "

+I Never had any beef with Vector strike either - thought it was perfectly okay!

with the Prescience being the primaris still - I suppose as you can only cast one spell per unit per turn - it'll be easier to deny now thus reducing its impact on the game.

I like the nerf to SMASH attacks. As it is right now, walkers (even ones that are CC oriented) simply cannot go toe to toe with monstrous creatures. All it takes is one lucky roll by the MC and your walker is toast. Meanwhile, your futuristic robot designed to fight in close combat cannot take out an MC because it has 6 wounds.

Hopefully, we will see a resurgence in walkers with this new ruleset.

And, I am not anti-MC, I just don't like what the latest ruleset did to walkers.

Now, if GW could only make penitent engines worth taking.....

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its tuesday and people they have seen the books, where are the scans?

If I get mine tomorrow expect a deluge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

Ground based vehicles have gotten super buffed dude. Now scoring, potentially have objective secured from the troops slot, might be giving transported dudes relentless while inside, harder to destroy....AWESOME SAUCE

So essentially 5th ed parking lots again? awesome.

Not at all dude, they still die to hull points like before, just harder to get one of shots that blow them up, skimmers no longer default to their cover saves, have to reduce fire power to get it. EVERYONE gained scoring so them getting scoring is no big deal.

I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

For example, shooting with Bolt of Change (S:6+D6) I'd need to get the power off, not have it denied, get a high result on the roll to determine strength, have the target fail a cover or invul save if appropriate, then get a good result on the pen chart. And thats if I even get that power in the first place. The primaris Tzeentch power is S:5, which is fine against rear armor 10 or weaker vehicles but if that's all I get (and it's happened) the tougher vehicles are immune to shooting and I've had to Smash them open.

I still dont believe Unbound will be as rampant as the doomsayers believe. Sure there will always be TFG, but tournaments and the like, not so much

Also the scoring thing makes troops a bit more valuable with Objective Secured now.

And Vehicles still get hullpointed to death. Its a balance between parking lots and the junkyard we have now

for a brief period of time will Blood Angels dedicated Land Raiders have a time in the sun before it is taken away in a new BA codex?

Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

 Leth wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its tuesday and people they have seen the books, where are the scans?

If I get mine tomorrow expect a deluge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Consider me a Vegan.

And overall I don't think most people are against deathstars - as the new edition will have them too.

It's about the points costs and the disadvantages that should be inherent in taking them.

Each edition has it's own, I'm just not interested in getting on the merry go round again.

Just doesnt make sense to devote time an energy(especially negative energy) to something that no longer affects you. I tried warmachine. Put down 500+ dollars into it. About 5 games in I realized I just despised the entire game, hated the rules, hated the lack of customization, hated how the themed lists with the warcaster I wanted to run sucked, hated how the models I like sucked and to get a decent force I had to use models that I hated the look of. Absolutely hated it.

I dont sit around going to warmachine forums talking about how much I thought it sucked, I barely even give it a second thought.

+1 there

+2.

So what exactly hasn't been nerfed? Ground based vehicles?

Ground based vehicles have gotten super buffed dude. Now scoring, potentially have objective secured from the troops slot, might be giving transported dudes relentless while inside, harder to destroy....AWESOME SAUCE

So essentially 5th ed parking lots again? awesome.

Not at all dude, they still die to hull points like before, just harder to get one of shots that blow them up, skimmers no longer default to their cover saves, have to reduce fire power to get it. EVERYONE gained scoring so them getting scoring is no big deal.

Hmm...yeah doesn't seem TOO terrible, then.

sleekid wrote:
and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

I agree, not the end of the world. Tzeentch princes/LoC with the twig of change for +2 strength and you're already s8 ap2. That's generally enough unless you have Land Raiders on your hands.

I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

 undertow wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

The warp is a fickle beast.

Awww yeah forging the narrative!.

Do they not have access to CC weapons that actually boosts stats like a maul or hammer?

tracked tanks are still super easy to kill, HP's alone make them 33-60% easier to kill in most cases than in 5E (depending on the weapon in question), the major thing is that there's no longer much of a point to bringing Lascannons or Lances anymore, spam those autocannons as mercilessly as you can.

sleekid wrote:
and you attack from behind anyway so it still is ok.
You wanted FMC to have a huge survivability boost (only one grounding check and only on a wound) and keep their damage potential, or even have it improved as they can now fire weapons and spells !!!!
Flying circus would have been the only way to play then....

You can only Smash if you're on the ground, so the grounding check doesn't really enter into it. I'm talking about anti-tank options and that now I have none that I can reliably count on having in any given game. Also, I mentioned that the shooting I can reliably get can deal with light vehicles (Rhinos, some Walkers, etc) if I can get side or rear shots. It's the heaver vehicles AV13+ that will be virtually immune to my shooting.

Also, I may be able to cast powers and shoot, but most of my shooting is psychic, so I'm not really gaining anything here. My shooting is just moving from the shooting phase to the psychic phase. If I do happen to get a shooting ability from a reward, then yes I'm better off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont daemons also get crazy gifts that have lance and stuff? im sure there are more than 1 way to skin a tank.

Yes, Daemons have a S:8 Ap:1 Lance attack as one result on a D6 table that you pay 20 points to roll on. Note that I said 'reliable way' to get anti-tank. Other armies (such as Space Marines) can decide to add Melta or Lascannons or other anti-tank by purchasing them directly, and these shots cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch. Paying 20 points for a 1 in 6 shot of getting a semi-decent anti-tank option isn't at all reliable.

The warp is a fickle beast.

Awww yeah forging the narrative!.

Do they not have access to CC weapons that actually boosts stats like a maul or hammer?

Yeah, but not for all gods. Tzeentch Princes can get a Staff that adds +2 Strength. But still that's only going to Glance a Landraider on a Pen roll of 6.

Again, reliable anti-tank against AV13+ is no longer possible for Daemons if the Smash nerf is true.

FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

Coupled with less danger from grounding.

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

I haven't seen anything about that. Currently VS is the base Strength of the model unless otherwise noted for that model. That means no wargear or psychic power (Iron Arm) can boost VS strength. My Daemon Princes always VS at S6, regardless of load out.

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

Since when do demons rely on shooting to take out vehicles? You don't have any greater demons or demon princes? If they're still good at taking on vehicles in CC, the problem isn't with the rules but rather with the army style you've taken. Isn't that what monstrous creatures are for? I could complain that my tau can't reliably take on tyrannid monstrous creatures in close combat but I realize that isn't how they're *supposed* to take them out. I could also take a devastator heavy list and wonder the same thing with my marines.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

I thought I heard that all armies can now ally with themselves as BB?

Also don't stray from hope yet man, it's a big book full of rules. who knows what else is in there to help you. They may even FAQ nids to have Biomancy once again.

 stonehorse wrote:
not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

Wasn't it mentioned that all armies are now battle brothers with themselves?

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks...

Except summoning more daemons to summon more daemons... not a lot of pity to be had here

I was refering to how things stood when the 6th edition Codex came out. Allowing Tyranids to take themselves as an ally would really help.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

Wasn't it mentioned that all armies are now battle brothers with themselves?

No need, just purchase another detachment from your own dex... looks like for every 2 troops you can grab an HQ and redo the Force Org again and again and again (which I think is a good idea, TBH).

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
FMC get STR 10 vector strikes right?

They said vector strike is ap2 now

Coupled with less danger from grounding.

VS uses unmodified STR, unless specified (like heldrake and hive crone)

Wilson wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think the smash was more because of how easy they could ID characters making anything without eternal warrior a no take.

I am sure MC might get something to make up for it in their basic rules.

Or Iron Arm. Iron arm going to a flat +3/+3 might help

Tell that to the Tyranid players, we love to Iron Arm our Monstrous creatures... oh wait, that got taken away.

If the rumour of Smash attack being just one attack, this is yet another blow for Tyranids.

As it is, Smash attack on our 'scary' WS3 I2 A3 monstrous creatures is not that bad, it gets us 2 attacks at WS3 S10 AP2, so 1 hit and 1 in 3 chance of penetrating armour 14, and a 1 in 2 chance of penetrating armour 13. Then a 1 in 3 chance of destroying the vehicle.

Smash attack being just one attack is a real punch to our ability to deal with armour higher than 13. With the new damage table, we are going to really struggle to deal with them at range, aside from just stripping them of hull points. The Rupture Cannon is a Joke at AP4, Warp Lance is useful. Just very short ranged at 18" and has 6 hurdles to leap through (generation of Warp Charges, rolling enough successes, the opponent not making their Deny the witch, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling high enough on the damage table).

Taking away psychic disciplines, taking away a whole game play style, not allowing the ability to ally with ourselves, and then this.

Someone at GW must really not like Tyranids.

I thought I heard that all armies can now ally with themselves as BB?

Also don't stray from hope yet man, it's a big book full of rules. who knows what else is in there to help you. They may even FAQ nids to have Biomancy once again.

You're assuming that they're even aware of this problem because it seems that GW doesn't really understand their own game when they nerf already weak things. Why do they want near useless units? I disagree with OP units, but I can see that its a gimmick to sell models, but weakening things like Nids, Blood Angels and SOB? Its lazy, ignorant and inexcusable.

 warboss wrote:

 undertow wrote:
I hope that change to Smash isn't true. If it is, as a Daemon player I'll have almost zero reliable ways of removing tanks. Weaker vehicles and some walkers I could handle, but anything AV13 or higher will be virtually immune to the shooting I can get with any reliability. A lot of my anti-tank options are results of random rolls on reward tables or psychic shooting attacks with variable strength.

Since when do demons rely on shooting to take out vehicles? You don't have any greater demons or demon princes? If they're still good at taking on vehicles in CC, the problem isn't with the rules but rather with the army style you've taken. Isn't that what monstrous creatures are for? I could complain that my tau can't reliably take on tyrannid monstrous creatures in close combat but I realize that isn't how they're *supposed* to take them out. I could also take a devastator heavy list and wonder the same thing with my marines.

Please pay attention. I'm saying that Smash in CC is currently my way of dealing with high AV vehicles (13+). If the nerf to Smash is true we will no longer be able to drop heavy vehicles in CC and Daemon shooting isn't up to the task of reliably dealing with AV13+.

Also, Daemons have decent shooting abilities. Light vehicles such as Rhinos or anything light that I can get a rear or side armor shot on I can take out. I'm strictly talking about AV13+ vehicles and no longer having any reliable ways to deal with them, shooting or otherwise.

aka people caring about unbound when battle forged is just as silly from the sounds of it.


RIP FOC you were a good friend and generous lover.




On the upside, thankfully snapfire is still bs1. My dakkajet is happy.