PB IP's being looked at by Hollywood, Hah, after taking a brief glance at PB's IPS came to the conclusion they are as generic as generic comes, and Hollywood would not need to purchase a generic IP such as PB's, me thinks its a smoke screen to try to get people to ask about PB's IPs being made into a movie to draw interest in it and give it some momentum since PB is on the verge of shutting their doors (and/or) moving into a garage to run their business.
Most of PB's materials are terrible enough they could be used for SYFY network movies. Their crap would be right at home next to the other originals like Alien Apocalypse and the Sharknado franchise.
stanman wrote: Most of PB's materials are terrible enough they could be used for SYFY network movies. Their crap would be right at home next to the other originals like Alien Apocalypse and the Sharknado franchise.
nah, even the SYFY network wouldn't touch PB's stuff.
IF he does such a thing, I expect half the book to be about how mean the backers were to him after the campaign finished. I mean, what better opportunity to throw US under the bus! Whole chapter on how PB were led to believe that everything was set up and all they needed to do was send the files to China, another chapter on "Filegate" where the stupid Chinese didn't understand good old American file types, another on the agonising process of organising(tm) shipping - and having a lesson in Geography to boot, and at least 6 chapters on how whiny the backers got after everyone realised that everything would not ship at the same time, don't they know that it's easier to ship within the US than to all those other countries? And why are they complaining about a small delay of a couple of years? Don't they realise that these are going to be the most desirable, beautiful 105 piece models at this scale? (Which, by the way, is still not finalised for the other generations of the game, coming to you sometime this century.
Mind you, if he's really devious, he may have wave 2 ready to go at the moment. He's just waiting for more people to say "I don't care how many pieces each model is, I just want them in my hands now!" and then he can say "Your wish is my command. I'll approve the files and splits now, then all we are waiting on is a production slot, we're 98% ready to produce the rest of the campaign!"
Personally, I don't think Kev is that intelligent, but with Wayne's help, who knows how many braincells they have to rub together.
Nah, as a legend in his own mind, he's trying to make himself look good. He saves the wall of textery and under the bus throwery for his annual screed on us.
The half page will be how he saw the project through to its logical completion (what he decided it was, not backers, kickstarter or the law) despite the odds and how it revitalized miniature gaming industry, saved Harmony Gold and sealed the rift with Big West allowing Macross into the North American market which in turn also single handedly saved the Anime industry and world economy.*
*realize none of this has to be true, he just thinks it is.
Well, in that case he truly believes the entire campaign to be finished, and wonders why people are complaining about how their forces aren't complete. "Go out and buy them, peasants, we need to make a larger profit on this before we can get 98% done on the next era!"
n815e wrote: Looks like some PB fans are investigating running a KS to pay PB to have another Open House.
Why do I feel sick reading that?
To pay them for the "honor" of their presence?
To inflate Kev's ego even more?
How does a freaking "open-house" cost them anything?
I hear this whine of "we may not be able to hold it this year folks.." how could they not?
It is probably one of their more profitable efforts of the year.
Sorry, sorry, it is PB, it does not have to make sense.
Is it just me or has HG been on an upswing in promoting Robotech this year? It's back on Netflix, available on Amazon Prime, several other anime video site seem to be (legally) carrying it. What gives? Is it a 30th anniversary or something or are they just getting desperate for cash?
You should. The stuff going on for the past 10-15 years has been disturbing.
To pay them for the "honor" of their presence?
To inflate Kev's ego even more?
In a word. Yes to both.
How does a freaking "open-house" cost them anything?
Let's see... They get unpaid volunteers to do the work. Any sales they make are at a great profit margin because any potential distributor is cut out. There's no travel expense Palladium Books has to pay.
So, I guess just the rent and whatever Alex's salary is, because he's about the only staffer at Palladium that gets paid.
I hear this whine of "we may not be able to hold it this year folks.." how could they not?
I know this is a rhetorical question. The answer is already clear. It's just to get donations rolling in. I don't know the specifics, but if some Palladium rep didn't hint at the donations, I'm sure it was one of the regular Palladium shills who started the idea. Of course, we know the true source.
It is probably one of their more profitable efforts of the year.
And when the Palladium faithful send the donations flooding in on top of paying for a ticket, it will be even more profitable.
I think Uncle Kev's next new thing will be charging people for the privilege of running a game for him.
Agreed.
On-topic is running out of steam since no new information is coming out of PB but I am sure our patience will be rewarded.
Yep looking pretty bleak on the PB site and nothing as usual on the KS site we are only a few days away from a month of no update.
Moving on...
Stormonu wrote: Is it just me or has HG been on an upswing in promoting Robotech this year? It's back on Netflix, available on Amazon Prime, several other anime video site seem to be (legally) carrying it. What gives? Is it a 30th anniversary or something or are they just getting desperate for cash?
They're not in the animation business, they're in the marketing business.
The show is the printer, the merchandise is the overpriced ink cartridges.
I'm not sure the KS will do anything for an Open House (and potential RTT tournament that would go with it, to keep on topic).
If I recall it wasn't so much a money issue as to why Kevin said it might go to every other year. More it was the time investment and distraction from projects that needed to be done.
well in posting it, you expressed newness like this was something new or original.
It is something new.
Is it just me or has HG been on an upswing in promoting Robotech this year? It's back on Netflix, available on Amazon Prime, several other anime video site seem to be (legally) carrying it. What gives? Is it a 30th anniversary or something or are they just getting desperate for cash?
There's a new VP in HG that has taken over the Robotech part of the company. He seems interested in actually growing the brand, he is probably the reason why HG claims it is pushing and helping PB to complete the KS and why PB is suddenly interested in providing content. If we are lucky, McKeever will have to find another desk to sleep at in a different company.
well in posting it, you expressed newness like this was something new or original.
It is something new.
Is it just me or has HG been on an upswing in promoting Robotech this year? It's back on Netflix, available on Amazon Prime, several other anime video site seem to be (legally) carrying it. What gives? Is it a 30th anniversary or something or are they just getting desperate for cash?
There's a new VP in HG that has taken over the Robotech part of the company. He seems interested in actually growing the brand, he is probably the reason why HG claims it is pushing and helping PB to complete the KS. If we are lucky, McKeever will have to find another desk to sleep at in a different company.
yes and no, it has been bandied about before about doing crowdfundings for PB's open houses, as to the new VP in charge of RT, that might not be a good thing for PB.
Jeffar pb seems to be easily distracted no matter what. They promise like 4-12 books the first 6 months of the year and barely get one out. They promised another 5 or 6 by the end of the year along with the rrt cards in pdf form. The card thing is happening but they might get 1 book and the delayed rifters. Their production schedule goes to heck way too easily when old kev talks business then yells squirrel and starts chasing it.
Stormonu wrote: Is it just me or has HG been on an upswing in promoting Robotech this year? It's back on Netflix, available on Amazon Prime, several other anime video site seem to be (legally) carrying it. What gives? Is it a 30th anniversary or something or are they just getting desperate for cash?
Macross' 30th anniversary was a couple years ago, so... maybe?
rosco60559 wrote: Jeffar pb seems to be easily distracted no matter what. They promise like 4-12 books the first 6 months of the year and barely get one out. They promised another 5 or 6 by the end of the year along with the rrt cards in pdf form. The card thing is happening but they might get 1 book and the delayed rifters. Their production schedule goes to heck way too easily when old kev talks business then yells squirrel and starts chasing it.
That was what my take on it too. Two weeks of time (cumulatively) organizing for an Open House isn't the big issue. I don't expect PB to work on ANY project non-stop. It's unrealistic.
I expect them to put in some significant effort on RRT at least a couple times a month. And that's not happening. And that's NOT because they're running a convention. It doesn't need to be one or the other. They should be capable of doing BOTH.
I don't believe for one second that not having an Open House will suddenly make everything else click into place. There appears to be an elasticity of procrastination that permeates. It's the only thing that can explain how they work 12-16hours a day, 5-6 days a week (a claim they make often), AND GET NOTHING DONE. Sorry, you've got 3+ employees working 180-280 manhours a week, and you have one book to show for the year, and next to nothing to show on a $1.4M side project? Yeah, it's not a small convention that's causing that ratio of "generating revenue vs office jackassery" to dip into dangerously incompetent territory. That level was already well into the red.
I don't know what the answer is. But I do know that it just makes them look worse. Cause it makes it look like they're either not capable of doing this relatively minor thing, and that having to do it via Kickstarter means they don't have the money to do it, or they don't have faith in their fanbase to do it. Either way, just like the handling of RRT the last two years, it's not inspiring confidence in the viability of the company.
I'm surprised anything gets done there. Oct. to the end of Jan. is surprise packages. Several conventions over the rest of the year kill off 2-3 weeks at a time. For us the Chinese New Year kills another month, you know for the quote gathering, like it did for postponing wave 1.
I admit I was bored one time last year and checked out the staff of pb section on their site. It lists 6 people including kev's dad whose been gone(dead) for a long time now. So there's only really 5 people and for the most part Wayne is the youngest one. that company might disappear due to death and retirement before wave 2.
rosco60559 wrote: I admit I was bored one time last year and checked out the staff of pb section on their site. It lists 6 people including kev's dad whose been gone(dead) for a long time now. So there's only really 5 people and for the most part Wayne is the youngest one. that company might disappear due to death and retirement before wave 2.
rosco60559 wrote: Jeffar pb seems to be easily distracted no matter what. They promise like 4-12 books the first 6 months of the year and barely get one out. They promised another 5 or 6 by the end of the year along with the rrt cards in pdf form. The card thing is happening but they might get 1 book and the delayed rifters. Their production schedule goes to heck way too easily when old kev talks business then yells squirrel and starts chasing it.
Well I have been waiting for an update version of Recon that's compatible with the standard megaversal rules since the 1980s, so I understand a bit of that.
One good thing if there is another Open House - there will be pictures of the warehouse area so we should be able to do a visual count of how much RTT overstock is still left...
Don't forget Kevin has been busy micro managing his Rifts IP with Pinnacle for the last year to be bothered with silly things like content for multiple new books he promised or a half completed $1.4 million dollar project years overdue.
Other than the occasional phone call to get "quotes" that is.
It may be an oversimplification but I suspect any one of us could as a full time job produce more finished product than PBfull time staff could produce.
Considering they have contract staff for artwork and even writing, the only hard skill would be for layout.
I have read many of their RPG books so I can easily omit editing as a skill needed.
Maybe how to operate a forklift, since they do seem to have a stocked warehouse.
I know I am being mean but really, other than the occasional new text added to the beginning of the notification of the week: what do they specifically do? Really?
RRT in particular I am at the point I do not want to know: it would only irritate me.
Man, has anyone ever suffered as hard for the sins of others as Kevin Simbieda?
Did this team of self-sacrificing supermen somehow suffer some great loss that reduced their productivity to a standstill over previous years? The reason I ask is that their comical lack of productivity has to be a big surprise to them, because if it's not, at this point, and after this many years, continually falling far, far short of their stated, published goals, well, that would just be lying.
And a great man like Simbieda would never do that.
They've had happen what happens to any business that has a measure of success. There comes a point where a home-grown business becomes too much for the single person to manage it an also have a direct hand its day-to-day operations. Where that individual brought a vision to the company that brought it success, at some point they become an obstacle to the company's continued success. Either that individual has to step aside for growth to continue and the company to evolve to serve a larger customer base, or the company stagnates and eventually dies with its owner.
That is the state of PB, and it reached that point back in the 90's during its hey-day.
n815e wrote: They've lost touch with what is considered actual productivity.
I beg to differ. They produce plenty each and every day, it's just a shame that the only room they can produce anything in is a small one with not much room due to all the Porcelain in that small space.
In reality, I think its pretty clear that any "work" they really do is all on the warehouse side. Writing and art is all done by their freelancers and the actual people at the office are probably spending any productive time bagging, shipping or collating TP reports - the rest is probably waiting on Kevin to approve whatever pile has sat on his desk for the last 6-8 months.
Stormonu wrote: In reality, I think its pretty clear that any "work" they really do is all on the warehouse side. Writing and art is all done by their freelancers and the actual people at the office are probably spending any productive time bagging, shipping or collating TP reports - the rest is probably waiting on Kevin to approve whatever pile has sat on his desk for the last 6-8 months.
It's easy snark to throw around, but didn't the SW:R pdfs already go out, at least vaguely on time, with the print materials in the works?
Whatever interjection Kevin may or may not have done (or been able to do), that campaign seems to be proceeding pretty well, at least from the last time I glanced at it (which admittedly was a while ago).
[MOD EDIT - "FTFY" 'Quotes' are frowned upon here - they're oftentimes viewed as against RULE #1 - thanks! Alpharius]
How can Kickstarter ever claim that a campaign that has not fulfilled it's base rewards in 3 YEARS is working enough not to have considered it a failure?
I predict that any campaign in the future that involves PB has a 98% chance of failure. [saying they will be hands-off may not be enough to save a particular campaign. We were all under the impression PB would be hands-off on this campaign, and look how well that turned out.] I certainly have a 100% chance of never having anything to do with them again.
If PB throw the same B&S trick as they did here with ND, then I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone who backs a campaign that involves them now.
Autarch wrote: Don't forget Kevin has been busy micro managing his Rifts IP with Pinnacle
Any info to back this up? I'd like to know if this is actually happening. Thanks!
Kevin alone has been involved in the approval process for every bit of IP related fluff involved in Savage Rifts Kickstarter and additional material they were working on at the time (and not just artwork as he's indicated in his weekly updates). How do we know Kevin is a one man band? According to Ross Watson (Evil Beagle contributor to SR) when Kevin broke his arm, they had to come up with a WORK AROUND (his words) in order for Wayne and other PB staffers to step in to continue the approval process while Kevin was recovering. Hardly something they would have had to do if it was already a team effort and not Kevin's usual one man bottle neck. Now that he's recovered I'm sure it's back to business as usual. No doubt Kevin's broken arm slowed production down on PB's other projects, but not to the tune of one book and a deck of cards this year which is pathetic even by their low standard. No, the lion share of his time has to be overseeing the Rifts IP translation to Savage Worlds and the additional products for it being worked on post Kickstarter.
...which, to be completely honest 1) have not been particularly delayed so far and 2) are the only thing even marginally interesting to the gaming world at large, outside of Kevin Siembieda's personality cult.
Yes it's all academic to us what Kevin does, this half game is dead. Although I do find the speculation about combining wave two with Carmen's boardgame minis interesting.
Don't believe PB have the funds to do anything when they still can't get the resin stuff out.
The resin components are going to be much cheaper to get moulds for than plastic, so if money is tight, they should be the first thing out the door because it would shut down so many complaints for the minimal cost. They have, after all, shown pictures of the resin SDF-1 - although we still don't know if that was a cleaned up prototype or a production piece.
Getting SDF-1 models, resin bases, and objective markers would restart the clock on how long they have had since viable, provable progress has been made. [P.S.] And it could give the fans something to work on in the meantime, taking focus off how long it has been overall.
I am sorry, but I just can't see how combining W2 with anything will have any positive benefits at this stage. I just don't believe there is enough polish left in the world to make this thing revivable, and it would take years worth of top grade glitter to make any difference.
I do not really see PB combining any future Rifts Boardgame figures with WAve 2 , however it is possible they could influence Kevin, especially if money is tight or nonexistent.
Okay ths is pure suppostion and feel free to shoot it down.
The new Rifts KS will be a boardgame so my expectation would be that any figures would be detailed but likely to be one piece )ready assembled/) but frm a softer plastic.. Now if this proves cheaper I wonder if Kevin - in the quest for the minimum parts count - will move to this cheaper "softer" model, excusing it on the grounds that it was the only way to get it done.
Most miniature gamers would be upset, but any more so than now and any casual or RPG/boardgamers may well be happy as would be anyone who does not "paint" their minis.
In any event i wonder if there would be any crossover models on offer?
wilycoyote wrote: The new Rifts KS will be a boardgame so my expectation would be that any figures would be detailed but likely to be one piece )ready assembled/) but frm a softer plastic.. Now if this proves cheaper I wonder if Kevin - in the quest for the minimum parts count - will move to this cheaper "softer" model, excusing it on the grounds that it was the only way to get it done.
if its not free PB will not do it, since 1: PB has no money left, 2: PB will not throw good money after bad, they killed the game and even a miracle could not bring it back so PB will not waste money on something they will not make any money from.
As usual, I will not waste my time commenting Kevin´s non-updates. Hard to say anything else about three sentences saying "we have nothing" too.
Better to play and paint here are some pics of my last battles. Just small battles, not at home and organized in the last minute (that´s the reason for the lack of scnery among other things...)
Well, I can say Gnerls rlz! They are deadly. Paperweight but deadly.
And Nosjaedul-Ger could be useful. They are painfully slow (Movement 5, just as other UEDF mecha but with less range) but have some advantages for example, the Three-Barreled 64mm Grenade Launcher not having the missile rule, preventing the grenades from being taken down. I tried with three NG, but having 6 or 9 shooting grenades at the same time could be awesome (to kill UEDF, obviously xD). Other positive thing about NG is that they are cheap in points, by Zentraedi standards, having sooo much MDC (lol) and also that they have PIL 3, so boosting their movement is very easy and not so risky, gambling the command points.
And here is some progress in the first Gnerls. Waiting for the other 6 to arrive here
The point is playing it. The game is dead, PB sucks and we will probably not getting wave 2 minis ever. But that does NOT stop you from playing the game and having a good time.
At least I, have played plenty of games since I started with this, back on March 2015. I can say I play it more regularly than WHFB back in the day. And I see in the almost-near future that I'll finish painting my RRT miniatures, so I can move on (not even close with my chaos warriors BTW). And slowly finish my zentraedi armada with the 3D printed models that are coming these days!
@Swabby: thanks. I'm liking how this scheme is turning out for the Gnerls. Yesterday I bough some different stylographs to panel the Gnerls later There are awesome miniatures coming every week in shapeways. Specially if you use UEDF xD
One small spark is I got the kids into watching Robotech on Netflix since they are on the Canadian version as well.
They are showing interest in the game/toys I got.
I am almost done my Bolt Action stuff so can move-on to other projects: GW Deathwatch or Robotech all armies.
My 12 year old boy is taking a cooking class tonight... I am unsure of his priorities.
Don't be. Women love a guy that can cook. The sad fact is, he will get better use out of that skill than the ability to play a game that, thanks to PB, was stillborn.
And then when you're old enough to need care, it'll be a godsend that he can make you a decent meal.
He sounds to me like a real forward-looking youngster, he'll make you proud.
Conrad Turner wrote: Talizvar,
Don't be. Women love a guy that can cook. The sad fact is, he will get better use out of that skill than the ability to play a game that, thanks to PB, was stillborn.
And then when you're old enough to need care, it'll be a godsend that he can make you a decent meal.
He sounds to me like a real forward-looking youngster, he'll make you proud.
Hehehe, what got him interested is when daddy pushed grandma out of the way in the kitchen a few times recently and cooked.
She keeps trying to make the family think I know only how to make spaghetti so I have to prove her wrong because she is the in-law (plus my cooking "from scratch" is a little more than hers which seems to bug her).
But the little dude copies daddy a bit so knowing I can cook he wanted to as well.
They build stuff and paint so coming back to the hobbies will happen eventually.
When you get old enough in life, you wonder if all that hobby stuff that was important to you would get used later.
Robotech is certainly something you can be unsure how much effort to put into it since as a brand it looks like it is dying out.
Netflix is giving a bit of a boost more than I anticipated.
I am a bit like my father where we each developed a fair number of skills and really want to pass them on to the kids.
It is troubling when you cannot get them to take an interest due to something as simple as a generation gap.
Computer/game system games seem to be the greater draw due to being immediately rewarding.
Thank goodness other friends of theirs "like" geeky stuff due to their dads being more successful than I in getting their interest.
They are becoming horrified that I am making connections with these fathers and finding other people to game with... who knew?
No worries, some know of Robotech and are interested in playing.
If PB delivered and supported the game as a "flagship" game for their company, how successful do you believe it would have been?
Personally, I think it would have had only a moderate success - it is competing against Battletech and Heavy Gear after all and the design space for expanding the units would have hit a real wall. I do think they would have been able to use it to easily float their company along for a couple years milking the models (not in the way they are now of not producing and riding out the funds - as in actually making things and riding that money train).
The more I think about it, I think the game would have had serious issues once it got (gets?) to Southern Cross and the New Generation/Shadow Chronicles due to the scale of those vehicles. Rescaling would have likely disaffected everyone who bought in at the beginning as nobody likes to watch their old stuff be invalidated and you have to rebuy it to use it. Leaving things as-is scalewise would have seen models too small to be of value, and mixed scale would probably have been the way to go, but pleased no one.
I agree that it would have been much more successful and would also predict it to be in that solid second tier of popular games instead of relegated to the crap no one plays it third tier it currently festers in. I don't think it would ever be popular enough to crack the top five ICV2 rankings, knocking out one of the big boys like 40k/warmahorders/Fantasy-AOS/Xwing. I'd put it around Battletech as well but maybe a bit higher since it could theoretically capitalize on not just nostalgia alone but also easily learned rules and nice yet easy to put together minis and way above HG (and even DZC). You'd see it occasionally played by chance but if you wanted to play it regularly then you'd have to put in some minor effort to organize (not just show up and play like the top 5 sometimes are). YMMV. That is of course peering into the ether at an alternate universe where palladium gave a damn beyond just cashing the initial check and were competent enough to not just make a solid initial product as well as support it properly after the fact. What we have now is an ultrasuccessful kickstarter resulting in an ultimate failure of a project despite that.
Try and think positively about PB and what could have been and you rapidly find yourself going "Nah, it never had a chance."
Try to imagine, for example, if they could have leveraged the story side of the game. What I mean is, instead of it being a straight up wargame, they had somehow actually manage to have incorporated the soap opera aspects - Rick isn't just out on the table to blow away Zents; he's fighting to stay alive to return to Minmey as doubts about his own skill drive him to more and more desperate acts as the unending waves of Zents close in on him...
I don't know - for it to have worked, it might have come across as more of a co-operative game like Zombicide or Dead of Winter, where everyone is playing UEDF against AI-run Zents, and everyone has their own objectives to complete besides just blowing away the enemy.
Things are boiling for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We’ll reveal more when things are nailed down. We are continuing to post new game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com and working on what comes next. Still waiting on manufacturer quotes.
Just for the record, quick keyword search for "quote" in PBWU's.
Oct 6 - "Still waiting on manufacturer quotes."
Sep 29 - Not Applicable.
Sep 22 - "We are still waiting on a couple of manufacturing quotes"
Sep 14 - "We are still waiting on a couple of manufacturing quotes"
Sep 9 - "Apparently that one quote for manufacturing is going to take awhile"
Sep 2 - "Otherwise, still waiting for that price quote "
Aug 26 - "Wayne and I had a promising discussion with a gentleman if we decide to go one way with manufacturing, and we are waiting on a quote for another. "
Aug 19 - "We have a telephone call to discuss manufacturing options next week and are waiting for a quote from someone else."
Aug 12 - "Getting a few quotes and focusing in on a number of areas for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. This ain’t just talk." < Yeah, I think it kinda fething is.
That's the first mention of quotes on the PBWU. So, today marks two months of that particular line of bullgak.
Here's the points from prior that aren't about their standard advertising, the DTRPG cards, promoting conventions or anything to do with "future products" that aren't Wave 2 based. ie, information for the backers.
Jul 29 - "There has also been a lot of discussion about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) and all the things we will be doing for it in the weeks ahead."
Jul 22 - "prepping and planning for Robotech® RPG Tactics™."
Jul 15 - "More information and support coming after we finalize the groundwork for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and the releases of RRT Wave Two, and beyond."
Jul 8 - "We have been rather silent these past few months because we have been plotting the groundwork for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and the releases of RRT Wave Two and beyond. We did not want to talk about details until we had worked out a lot of them. I’m glad we didn’t, because things have changed several times and certain plans did not work out. "
Jul 1 - Not Applicable.
Jun 24 - "We are in the process of making a determination as to whether we can release Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two game pieces with much fewer component parts, for fast, easy builds. We do not want to say anything more until we are certain of all the details, which we hope to have in a few weeks."
June 17 - "Juggling a lot, including what’s next for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. It is definitely not forgotten or abandoned by Palladium. Things are boiling. More in a week or two. Much more to come." < So much wankery in such short a space. June 9 - "I know some of you fear that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is forgotten or abandoned by Palladium. It is most definitely not. We have been continuing to look into ways to produce figures with much fewer parts and deliver a high quality product you will love. We’re looking into something very exciting right now through a third party."
June 3 - "We are building up for much, much more for Robotech® RPG Tactics™."
May 25 - "We are looking into some new possibilities and gearing up for more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™,"
May 19 - "We are looking into some new possibilities and gearing up for more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™, "
May 12 - "We are looking into some new possibilities and gearing up for more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™,"
May 6 - "We are looking into some new possibilities and gearing up for more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™," < Hmm.... similar. April 29 - "As we said in the last update, we are gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™, "
April 26 - "As we said in the last update, we are gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™,"
April 14 - "We’re gearing up for more Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Here are some photos of prototypes for the SDF-1, Armored Valkyrie and YF-4 in all three modes. More to come."
April 8 - "As Wayne may have mentioned to some of you, we recently got some tooling quotes for Wave Two, and we’re discussing piece breakdown with the manufacturer. More to come as things continue to percolate on this front on several different levels." <Oooh! We have Quote Sign! March 29 - "In development. Things continue to percolate on this front on many different levels. "
March 24 - "In development. Things are brewing on this front on several different levels. Oh, and please note that we’ll have the SDF-1, the Armored Valkyrie, and all three modes of the YF-4 on display at AdeptiCon. And, of course, we’ll share them online too. The couple of announcements we had secretly hoped to make there will have to wait, as details are yet to be finalized."
March 17 - "In development. Things are brewing on this front on several different levels. Oh, and please note that we’ll have the SDF-1, and hopefully all three modes of the YF-4 and the Armored Valkyrie on display at AdeptiCon. And, of course, we’ll share them online too. The couple of announcements we had secretly hoped to make there will have to wait, as details are yet to be finalized."
March 10 - Not Applicable.
March 3 - " I’d like to say more about our plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™, but until we have a number of things nailed down and concrete I just can’t do so."
Feb 25 - " I’d like to say more about our plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™, but until we have a number of things nailed down and concrete I just can’t do so."
Feb 18 - " We spent a lot of time discussing, plotting and considering a vast number of things for Rifts® and Robotech® RPG Tactics, in particular, as well as a number of other things."
Feb 12, an important day in that it's more than a single line of importance. I highlighted what I consider important bits.
Spoiler:
"I know many of you would love to see some hard details and images right now, and we would love to provide them. However, we are still exploring different possibilities which could mean retooling and changing up the engineering that has already been in progress. We don’t want to show you things that may be changed. When there is a final resolve, and more concrete details, we will most definitely show you images and keep you apprised of progress and plans.
As for our work on other Palladium game titles, we have commitments to our fan base for other Palladium RPG lines(*), not just Robotech®. We are trying to get a number of products out for everybody. If it seems like the emphasis is on sourcebooks other than Robotech® RPG Tactics™, it is because books are faster to turn around, especially since we print them in the USA. It sure does NOT mean RRT has been tossed to the wayside. Far from it. Things are moving on all fronts. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down."
* Just for the record, that commitment has to date produced one, count it, ONE book. Also, people will be shocked, SHOCKED, I TELL YOU! that the promised Halloween book, Hell Followed, for Dark Reign, has been pushed back from end of month to mid next month. I bet you're all speechless at that happening, and are 100% confident it can't possibly be delayed again. After all, PB have commitments to their fan base!
Feb 4 - "This week there has been a lot of discussions and planning about new Robotech® product releases and the ideas, products and people to help us facilitate our plans as we put them in place. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is our top priority for 2016 and 2017, but there are a lot of moving pieces and we want our next push to really deliver. We’ll be keeping you posted as details are nailed down."
Jan 29, another important update regarding RRT, with special highlights again.
Spoiler:
"As I have stated in recent Weekly Updates on our website, Palladium Books has renewed its Robotech® game license and we intend to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ forward in 2016 in a big way. I want to get the Wave Two Kickstarter exclusives and expansion packs into manufacturing, and ultimately into your hands, as soon as we can.
Despite the fear and apprehension of some, I want to assure you that our Kickstarter backers have never been out of our thoughts, and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two is coming. As I have stated, for strategic and business reasons we have been unable to share with you everything Palladium has been exploring, considering and working on. As you know, one of the things we have been doing is looking into and considering possible ways to reduce part counts and make the game pieces easier to put together. As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you. And we think you’ll be pleased. Considering all the delays and frustration of the past, we do not want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, solid information we are confident with ourselves.
In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis. We’ll have some new data and material sooner, but I don’t think things will really begin to heat up before Spring or Summer. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two and fulfillment of our Kickstarter obligations more than anyone. It’s coming."
Jan 22 - "We expect to be able to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave 2 along much more quickly now,"
Jan 15 - "2016 is only two weeks old and it is shaping up to be one of the best and most exciting years in a decade. Exciting for you and us, because we anticipate a large number of new RPG sourcebooks to be released throughout the year. We also expect to relaunch Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and get Wave Two expansion packs and Kickstarter exclusives into final manufacturing."
Jan 15 again - "We intend to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ forward in 2016 in a big way. To get the Wave Two Kickstarter exclusives and expansion packs into manufacturing and ultimately into your hands. For strategic and business reasons we cannot share with you everything we have been exploring, considering and working on, but we will share everything with you as we move forward and get things finalized. With all the past delays and frustration, we don’t want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, complete information ourselves. But we will be sharing and offering more throughout the year in the weeks and months ahead."
Jan 8 - "2016 Robotech® RPG Tactics. We renewed the Robotech® license and look forward to getting RRT Wave Two into your hands and onto store shelves. I’ll offer up more info and details in an update in the next few weeks. More Robotech® sourcebooks are in the pipeline, too." >< Yeah, still waiting, jackass.
And that's the year so far in Robotech Tactics world (Nothing in the Dec 30, 2015 PBWU). And six Kickstarter Updates, most of which was long on words, but short on anything informative. Anyways, I need to go take a shower. I feel unclean having waded through all that bullgak.
Hope you have a stiff wire bristle brush and plenty of lye soap.
Unbelievable. Seeing it laid out like that with the blatant cut and pastes next to one another really underscores the fact that This Is Not Happening(TM).
Morgan Vening wrote: As for our work on other Palladium game titles, we have commitments to our fan base for other Palladium RPG lines(*), not just Robotech®.
this part just irks me, what about their commitments to the people who already paid for product over 3 years ago ?
Sad to realize there is a huge Robotech thread here I have missed.
I'll just join in to see what people are talking about. Like a lot of people here I've been a huge Robotech fan for decades...and blindly jumped in on the Kickstarter, despite it being run by Siembeda/Palladium. I figured the game would tank after release but as a Robotech fan in the United States you simply take what you can get your hands on ---- Palladium has let the Robotech IP flounder into garbage for the past 20 years.
I bought in big (a double order) on the Kickstarter and then purchased my buddy's double order as well when he wanted to back out. As such I'm sitting on a gargantuan amount of basic boxes. I haven't bothered opening them because I simply assume we'll never get Wave 2. I've no interest in playing half of Robotech/Macross. The game is dead to me until all of the units are released.
I won't be playing the game as it looks a bit crap, but I will be designing my own game. I used to run a 1/200 scale fan-based game at conventions and it was a lot of fun. However at $30 a model, the 1/200 stuff was tough and had a lot of product gaps (even with 3D printed alternatives).
Add me to the list of people who are furious with Kevin and his nonsense emails.
Y'know, if we take it at face value at how often RRT has been "boiling", the blasted thing would have evaporated by now.
Oh wait.
Anyhow, speculating on the possible future if the line had been properly supported...
It won't replace 40k or Warmahorde, but it had an advantage: it has a good deal of backstory that could draw people in, and there are a lot of stories in the Second and Third generations that could be the basis for games. And there is always the Sentinels/ Haydonites to generate material for more units.
Properly husbanded and grown, the game could become a good staple. But, to be honest, it would have taken PB down a street they hadn't travelled and they would have needed to change a lot to work it. Evidently, not happening.
I finally pulled out the crate of stuff, and I definitely don't need 4.
might help those interested if they knew how much you were looking to get for them, also if too high it might give us something to laugh at other then how this whole affair is going with PB.
Given the trials of games development, especially on a niche console like n-gage, the rights are probably co-owned by Nokia and thus with Microsoft to some degree.
That is just a messy situation to deal with.
To avoid the Wrath of Mods(tm), it would have been interesting to consider how RRT could have incorporated modern mobile technologies into the game. For one, mode changes can be better tracked -- one issue I always had a bit of problem with RRT is that you have to lug around 3 minis for a single VT (which is probably why I'm more a Destroid fan.. that and Btech).
Talizvar wrote: Sorry, I find Palladium trying to protect their "brand" rather comical.
They put more work into that than protecting it from obscurity.
Talizvar wrote: Sorry, I find Palladium trying to protect their "brand" rather comical.
They put more work into that than protecting it from obscurity.
... that was the joke.
I realized that but I am that type to spell it out.
Added emphasis on saving from obscurity, which is the #1 maddening part.
They seem to have no idea how little they are known outside of their immediate part of their increasingly shrinking universe of "fan-friends".
Hello everybody. I'm kinda sick of waiting for PB to fulfill the KS rewards. Ergo, sick too while reading (and producing myself) all the -justified- nerdrage about wave 2.
So, for days I wanted to ask you guys some questions about the RRT rules...
The main concern in my group is the lack of definition of "attack" and "unit cohesion" in the rulebook.
For instance...
1) When dodging, do you dodge all the attacks coming to a mecha with a command point, or do you must to pay 1 CP per attack? The rules as written (remember please that english y not even my second languagge) indicate me that yes, you must pay 1 CP per mecha trying to target and damage the other mecha...
According to my friends logic (playing UEDF and crying all the way because of how overpowered the Zentraedi are in their opinion) if we have 6 Regults targeting a group of 2 VF1, shooting 3 Regults to each VF, each mecha should pay 1 CP to dodge all three shots made by the "attack" (thinking about attack as the action of the whole unit, not per mecha).
2) Roll with impact: We just found YESTERDAY that rolling with impact reduces to half MD of 1 single attack. We were using the same logic for attack as unit, not per mecha since 2015... T___T
In the books is stated clearly that you can use 1 CP to reduce the MD from a single attack, right?
In the end, we (or my friends actually) have concerns about the definition of attack.
Is "attack" considered 1 mecha shooting at other, or a unit (or part of it) targeting another mecha?
That's it, for now. We had more questions, but let's discuss these now please Thanks in advance for your help.
Nesbet wrote: 1) When dodging, do you dodge all the attacks coming to a mecha with a command point, or do you must to pay 1 CP per attack? The rules as written (remember please that english y not even my second languagge) indicate me that yes, you must pay 1 CP per mecha trying to target and damage the other mecha...
According to my friends logic (playing UEDF and crying all the way because of how overpowered the Zentraedi are in their opinion) if we have 6 Regults targeting a group of 2 VF1, shooting 3 Regults to each VF, each mecha should pay 1 CP to dodge all three shots made by the "attack" (thinking about attack as the action of the whole unit, not per mecha).
As best I read that rule, it looked like "per attack" with the rules as written.
This became a problem for me where individual missiles become very powerful (despite the unavoidable perk when 4 are fired).
Remember how missiles can be spread across nearby models!
Playing with my friends we treated "per attack" more like "attack per model", we still went through command points like crazy so "attack per unit" seemed to be more "balanced". If you go by model to model, you should only save the command points for the "character" models like the Glaug or you will regret it.
2) Roll with impact: We just found YESTERDAY that rolling with impact reduces to half MD of 1 single attack. We were using the same logic for attack as unit, not per mecha since 2015... T___T
In the books is stated clearly that you can use 1 CP to reduce the MD from a single attack, right?
In the end, we (or my friends actually) have concerns about the definition of attack.
Is "attack" considered 1 mecha shooting at other, or a unit (or part of it) targeting another mecha?
Like above, as best I read it, it is one mecha shooting another.
As I have been playing it as a house rule: One unit on another unit.
By looking at the rules this way it made "Split-fire" more evil because you can target two units and then more command points get used.
My justification for this is even by using "per unit" we were still running out of command points quickly and models dying so it did not seem like an "over adjustment".
My issue is with building MD.
They need to be minimum double if not 4 times.
From that FOTM thread: "
Posts: 15
Thanks for help, Axelmania!
Also i am currently talking with two potential investors, so there is high chance that project will be funded. "
Oh the hilarity. Two whole potential investors? Wow! And not only does he have two whole potential investors lined up, but he did so before even seeing if the license was available!
Does Kevin pick up most of his fan friends at get-rich-quick seminars? It actually would explain a lot.
Merijeek wrote: From that FOTM thread: "
Posts: 15
Thanks for help, Axelmania!
Also i am currently talking with two potential investors, so there is high chance that project will be funded. "
Oh the hilarity. Two whole potential investors? Wow! And not only does he have two whole potential investors lined up, but he did so before even seeing if the license was available!
Does Kevin pick up most of his fan friends at get-rich-quick seminars? It actually would explain a lot.
whats to say word is out PB is dying and the vultures are circling.
Nesbet wrote: Hello everybody. I'm kinda sick of waiting for PB to fulfill the KS rewards. Ergo, sick too while reading (and producing myself) all the -justified- nerdrage about wave 2.
So, for days I wanted to ask you guys some questions about the RRT rules...
The main concern in my group is the lack of definition of "attack" and "unit cohesion" in the rulebook.
For instance...
1) When dodging, do you dodge all the attacks coming to a mecha with a command point, or do you must to pay 1 CP per attack? The rules as written (remember please that english y not even my second languagge) indicate me that yes, you must pay 1 CP per mecha trying to target and damage the other mecha...
According to my friends logic (playing UEDF and crying all the way because of how overpowered the Zentraedi are in their opinion) if we have 6 Regults targeting a group of 2 VF1, shooting 3 Regults to each VF, each mecha should pay 1 CP to dodge all three shots made by the "attack" (thinking about attack as the action of the whole unit, not per mecha).
2) Roll with impact: We just found YESTERDAY that rolling with impact reduces to half MD of 1 single attack. We were using the same logic for attack as unit, not per mecha since 2015... T___T
In the books is stated clearly that you can use 1 CP to reduce the MD from a single attack, right?
In the end, we (or my friends actually) have concerns about the definition of attack.
Is "attack" considered 1 mecha shooting at other, or a unit (or part of it) targeting another mecha?
That's it, for now. We had more questions, but let's discuss these now please Thanks in advance for your help.
The combat interaction between players is generally on a single model to model basis. Pg. 14 I think (the one with the MAC II on the bottom right corner) , second paragraph You attack in the example with a valkyrie versus a regult and resolve everything before deciding what to do with the next valkyrie... so rolls and dodges are vs the attack of a single model. That said... in reality folks generally lump rolls together instead of doing them individually and I could see a houserule using a dodge for all incoming attacks on that model from a single unit just to speed things up along with combined unit rolls.
I finally pulled out the crate of stuff, and I definitely don't need 4.
might help those interested if they knew how much you were looking to get for them, also if too high it might give us something to laugh at other then how this whole affair is going with PB.
I'm asking $70 shipped CONUS, but now I'm down to 2 boxes.
I guess I could strip the sprues and sell the bits.
I finally pulled out the crate of stuff, and I definitely don't need 4.
might help those interested if they knew how much you were looking to get for them, also if too high it might give us something to laugh at other then how this whole affair is going with PB.
I'm asking $70 shipped CONUS, but now I'm down to 2 boxes.
I guess I could strip the sprues and sell the bits.
meh I listed my bits on ebay and no nibbles, well had someone offer an amount I would have lost money on from just the shipping and then there were the fees and so forth. not a whole lot of money in RRT, if you are getting $70 shipped for them, good for you considering right now they are selling for about $50-60 shipped.
I thought I was somewhat casual on the game and then counted four starter box sets in my possession...
I know where the third came from but appear to be at a loss about the 4th.
Oh yeah, I bought the one-and-only-last-ever box from my FLGS.
I think it still has the shrink-wrap on it.
BUT I can play reasonably full games with what I have assembled (minus my not-wav2 stuff).
I would agree that the "value" of RRT product is going down other than for groups that do not care about stock.
Palladium: box: $~100, add-ons: ~$33-37
Ouch, Amazon Canada is still selling the starter box at ~$106 Canadian and the add-on boxes between $30-55.
eBay, not much better, box = ~$85, add-ons ~30.
Miniature Market: Box: ~$75, add-ons: ~$17-25.
Meeplemart: box: ~90, add-ons: ~$26-31
Coolstuff: box: ~$65, add-ons: ~$22-25
Just thought I would take a look to see since you got me curious.
All of the above would be affected by shipping costs, so would be worth looking at.
Thought I would share to save some time for others.
I do a ton of trading/selling/buying on-line for all kinds of stuff.
Most of the sealed Starters on EBay (that have sold) sell for $65-$70 with free S&H.
The average "normal human" price for it is $65 + S&H from a shop. I don't have the luxury of free S&H over $100, although I will give you free S&H if you pay $100 for it, lol....
TalonZahn wrote: I do a ton of trading/selling/buying on-line for all kinds of stuff.
Most of the sealed Starters on EBay (that have sold) sell for $65-$70 with free S&H.
The average "normal human" price for it is $65 + S&H from a shop. I don't have the luxury of free S&H over $100, although I will give you free S&H if you pay $100 for it, lol....
actually from what i'm seeing are items selling for a bit less then what you said, they may have items priced that high, but ones selling in large numbers are much lower then what you quoted, not too mention with the high cost of selling items on eBay (10% of item cost including S&H) not counting cost of PP the seller will end up with considerably smaller amount.
actually from what i'm seeing are items selling for a bit less then what you said, they may have items priced that high, but ones selling in large numbers are much lower then what you quoted, not too mention with the high cost of selling items on eBay (10% of item cost including S&H) not counting cost of PP the seller will end up with considerably smaller amount.
There are more, in the Recently Sold on EBay, selling for $65-$75 than selling for $30.
Anecdotal evidence aside, the average going rate at retailers is a bit over $65.
I'll wander off again, so feel free to return to other topics like Kevin being a douche.
If everything goes off the way we expect, 2017 is going to be a huge year for Robotech® and Rifts® from Palladium Books. We are still waiting for quotes from a couple of manufacturers. I think part of the delay is the Essen Germany Game Fair. Manufacturers and companies were busy prepping for the international event, then attending it and now recovering from it (it ended last Sunday). In the meanwhile, you will continue to see movement in other areas, such as Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com, the force organization chart and other RRT related materials. And we are plotting game support and events for next year."
If everything goes off the way we expect, 2017 is going to be a huge year for Robotech® and Rifts® from Palladium Books. We are still waiting for quotes from a couple of manufacturers. I think part of the delay is the Essen Germany Game Fair. Manufacturers and companies were busy prepping for the international event, then attending it and now recovering from it (it ended last Sunday). In the meanwhile, you will continue to see movement in other areas, such as Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com, the force organization chart and other RRT related materials. And we are plotting game support and events for next year."
Blaming Essen? So pißed right now.
huh change 2017 to 2016 and that will sound like one of last years or earlier this years updates
If everything goes off the way we expect, 2017 is going to be a huge year for Robotech® and Rifts® from Palladium Books. We are still waiting for quotes from a couple of manufacturers. I think part of the delay is the Essen Germany Game Fair. Manufacturers and companies were busy prepping for the international event, then attending it and now recovering from it (it ended last Sunday). In the meanwhile, you will continue to see movement in other areas, such as Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com, the force organization chart and other RRT related materials. And we are plotting game support and events for next year."
Blaming Essen? So pißed right now.
huh change 2017 to 2016 and that will sound like one of last years or earlier this years updates
I think you're right. It doesn't help that each update is cut and paste from the previous update. At some point, they all start to blur together.
Yes, they really are, because absolutely nothing in at least 20 years has gone according to their projections. Yet, they never make allowances for that or stop to ask themselves if their estimates are really anywhere close to reality.
There is ALWAYS some excuse. China is 12 hours ahead. It's Chinese New Year. Kevin broke his arm. The open house is 6 months away and everyone is working on it. The warehouse has to be swept. People are banging on the door about licensing deals and Kevin has to focus all of his attention on that. Kevin had a flashback to the Crisis of Treachery and can't bring himself to work this month. Wayne uploaded a PDF to DriveThruRPG and is just plain ol tuckered out and can't work anymore. It's time for the annual Halloween decorations, so that will take the whole month. It's time to take the annual Halloween decorations down, so that will take the whole month. It's Christmas and everyone is spending time with family, so that will take the whole month. It's Tax Write Off Grab Bag time, so nothing can be done for the next several months. Everyone is worn out from the last several months, so nothing can be done this month while everyone rests. We're not going to GenCon, so we can't do anything this month. There was an industry show, so nothing has been done the past month. Kevin had to answer something on the messageboards, so that means no production this quarter. Someone asked about licensing the Rifts video game, and Kevin had to take a month off to type a one word reply. Every single announcement from the company has at least two or three of these kinds of excuses for why they just can't get anything done, and it has been like this for DECADES.
I just discovered Kitchen Nightmares. I would love to see something like that with Palladium in place of the restaurant.
Swabby wrote: "If everything goes off the way we expect..."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh God, they are completely delusional.
As Gabe said, it's par for the course. My question to PB would be "When has ANYTHING ever gone as you expect?". I mean, these were the same people who in September 2013, still were stating they expected full completion on time (5 months later). And who regarding Gencon 2014, also said, and I quote,
Robotech RPG Tactics, the game, will be at Gen Con. For sale. In quantity. There's not much question about that. (I realize some folks on here are questioning it, but there's no doubt in my mind.)
In non-RRT regards, this year Kevin announced 8 books (and some Rifters) to be completed by midyear. They got one done. Nearly all the remaining books are still on schedule for this year. They might get another done. So, a quarter the product in twice the time. They've never met an overoptimistic schedule they've not embraced wholeheartedly. "Set low expectations, then exceed them" is not a philosophy they subscribe to.
Do they really think anyone at all actually believes that?
I mean, how long have they been 'waiting for quotes' now?
From my post on the previous page, first mention this year at least, that I could find, was April 8 - "As Wayne may have mentioned to some of you, we recently got some tooling quotes for Wave Two, and we’re discussing piece breakdown with the manufacturer. More to come as things continue to percolate on this front on several different levels."
With regards this current "hunt for quote", it's August 12 - "Getting a few quotes and focusing in on a number of areas for Robotech® RPG Tactics™. This ain’t just talk." .
So either 6.5 months*, or almost 2.5 months in the current weekly-ish repeated mentioning of the fact.
* At least. I only went back as far as the start of this year.
An excerpt from Palladium's grand plans for 2016...
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We intend to move Robotech® RPG Tactics™ forward in 2016 in a big way. To get the Wave Two Kickstarter exclusives and expansion packs into manufacturing and ultimately into your hands. For strategic and business reasons we cannot share with you everything we have been exploring, considering and working on, but we will share everything with you as we move forward and get things finalized. With all the past delays and frustration, we don’t want to even speculate on release dates and other details until we have hard, complete information ourselves. But we will be sharing and offering more throughout the year in the weeks and months ahead.
It is all part of the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. By “relaunch” we mean a new and renewed market push of core games, regular product releases and game support, like RRT rules clarifications and elaboration, rules additions, advanced rules, demos, gaming events and promotions, adventures, PDF and physical releases, and more.
Please know that we are truly committed to making sure we complete and fulfill our Kickstarter obligations and to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ truly epic, with future expansions across all eras of Robotech®. We expect to post more information and details in a week or two.
Please keep the completion rate of the above 2016 plans in mind when evaluating the 2017 ones. The "relaunch" of the product line went about as well as the "restart" of the kickstarter discussion that this thread is titled after.
Do they really think anyone at all actually believes that?
I mean, how long have they been 'waiting for quotes' now?
Most serious business have a very short turn around time on quotes.. Normally they are using the same materials.. same manufacturing process .. etc..
So even the most difficult quote would take about a week.. What are we on....eight weeks now... that is impossible... just for a quote..
You wreak your car.. it takes about 30 minutes for a quote.. unless Kevin is using smoke signals to communicate and offering to pay
with Rifts Merchandise... I completely understand then...
According to that list Morgan pulled together, the first mention he found for 'quotes' this year was in April, so it definitely goes back a long ways (and obviously one would presume they'd be seeking this kind of information going back years, but that aside),
The '8 weeks' must be referencing how they keep bringing them up in every newsletter since mid August.
Eight weeks was just a shot in the dark... I had gave up on this kickstarter and come to the forum every once in a while....
My whole point is the fact in any business a quote only takes a short time... not weeks or months...
Kevin's next excuse why wave 2 is not coming is because "they" ran out of ink to print the boxes..
Do they really think anyone at all actually believes that?
I mean, how long have they been 'waiting for quotes' now?
Most serious business have a very short turn around time on quotes.. Normally they are using the same materials.. same manufacturing process .. etc..
So even the most difficult quote would take about a week.. What are we on....eight weeks now... that is impossible... just for a quote..
You wreak your car.. it takes about 30 minutes for a quote.. unless Kevin is using smoke signals to communicate and offering to pay
with Rifts Merchandise... I completely understand then...
At the place I work, vendors quotes were always only good for 30 days - at most. That they have been stringing us along this long just compiles on the proof that this is the KS that, despite all good sense, just refuses to properly die and be done with it so we can all move on.
I mean, at this point, it took less time for the actual Robotech war to occur. By now, the SDF-1 had enough time to travel back from Pluto, fight above Earth and reconstruct the planet afterwards.
I mean, at this point, it took less time for the actual Robotech war to occur. By now, the SDF-1 had enough time to travel back from Pluto, fight above Earth and reconstruct the planet afterwards.
At the place I work, vendors quotes were always only good for 30 days - at most. That they have been stringing us along this long just compiles on the proof that this is the KS that, despite all good sense, just refuses to properly die and be done with it so we can all move on.
That's the key part. In my admittedly very outdated experience, those types of quotes are only good for 30-60 days (even if they don't actually start producing for much longer, you have that long to pay and lock in the rate). When palladium supposedly waits 1-3 months for a quote for a manufacturer, whatever they're trying to compare it to is already defunct. That of course assumes that they're not just rejecting reasonable quotes outright until someone gives them the ridiculously lowball offer that they think they deserve because they're special that fits in with their remaining funds since they supposedly spent most of the backer money for our wave 2 rewards on retail wave 1 product instead of using their own cash/credit. I don't think they'll ever admit total failure on the remaining rewards until some statute of limitations runs out because they might believe it opens them up potentially to litigation.
...since they supposedly spent most of the backer money for our wave 2 rewards on retail wave 1 product instead of using their own cash/credit...
Do we know this for certain?
I mean, it certainly sounds plausible, but I'm sure Palladium hasn't admitted as such.
Do we have insider info here, or are we just connecting the reasonable dots?
No, just rumors and educated guesses. Jaymz said a while back that he got some insider info from an unknown source confirming this but obviously I wasn't privy to that conversation. Folks combined that with attendees from the last open house stating there many pallets of unsold robotech items sitting in their warehouse a year after wave 1 arrived along with no word on palladium about a second shipment of wave 1 from the manufacturer afterwards. They've been cutting back expenses for over a decade since the Crisis of TreacheryTM and then suddenly had the money to buy thousands of retail copies of wave 1 after they convientently got backer funds that were supposed to go to game development and rewards (not retail) production. So far, filling in the blanks while assuming the worst has been the most accurate way of predicting the course of this project since the day it funded, completely blowing official palladium press releases and updates out of the water in terms of veracity. Palladium in the meantime has done nothing to answer this question, instead preferring to deny the rare outlandish claims of spending the money on boats and luxury items. IIRC, their favorite mod white knight NMI I believe said "all money was spent on robotech" which of course does NOT exclude them spending our backer reward production budget on extra retail copies instead.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Quotes can be 60+ days if that's what you request at the time of the quote.
Or he asked in the quote to wait till the price came down to the price he wants to pay....
As for the extra money.. just doing simple math.. The base box set sold for $100 there was 5342 backers..
That makes $534,200 worth of product to cover.. that still leaves 900k still unaccounted for of the $1,442,312
of the backers money..
I understand not all backers pledged the same and there was box sets made from the components for the
main set... but there is a ton of money that was just gone.. used up on what??.. if there is really none left..
My personal feeling looking back...Kevin was deep in dept and most of the money cover his past due bills; then
to try to hide that they tried to go the cheapest route possible.. plus not have a clue how mold injection works
it was a train wreak from the very first after Ninja division left.
Worth keeping in mind that, as a guideline (it's not a hard and fast rule), MSRP is usually double what the wholesale price is, and the wholesale price is usually double what the factored costs for them should be (again, give or take).
So an MSRP core at $100 probably gets sold to CSI and other sites for closer to $50 (again, napkin math'd, I'm not a business major and I know there can be extenuating circumstances, contract riders, etc). Which means that, give or take, they allotted a value for production (and perhaps other aspects like shipping and whatnot) for about $25 for a core.
This is how sites can sell for 30%+ off MSRP and still turn a profit, they're using the Walmart style approach of moving high quantities of material at a lower profit margin per unit. Their 'free shipping' in the US plays into this as well; someone wants one or two things, and then adds one or two+ to the order to qualify. Even if they have a sale and drop the price considerably, it can either be to clear out things that have been sitting on shelves, or an effort to draw people in who want X or Y steeply discounted item, and hopefully snag a few other things with a better return to fill out the order.
Give or take, the napkin math Morgan and I did ages ago assumed roughly 7,000 Battle Cry tiers worth of support, between the various tiers themselves, and rounding up somewhat to account for pledge manager upgrades.
We know from the Open House and from pics of the pallets that they ordered a LOT of wave one. Even selling at wholesale (half off'ish), they *should* be coming ahead of the game. Even at a steeper discount, turning product back into cash obviously is a valuable exchange, especially when they do it directly and perhaps make up a bit more in shipping or something like that.
Hell, even selling it at a minor loss would be superior to sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise, though obviously there are limits to this, especially if they go so low that they're basically signalling the community that it's a fire sale.
I'm guessing that if anyone even hints at an interest in Robotech (not RRT, just the anime in general) that they'll use expansions to pad out the grab bags (a pack of VT's is nearly half of the expected 'value' within one! Wooo!), but I also remain skeptical that those things are bought in such massive quantities to make much of a difference in their bottom line or available resources.
But as a way to turn stuff that's building up dust on shelves and to milk people for full MSRP 'worth', it's not nothing.
Forar wrote: Worth keeping in mind that, as a guideline (it's not a hard and fast rule), MSRP is usually double what the wholesale price is, and the wholesale price is usually double what the factored costs for them should be (again, give or take).
So an MSRP core at $100 probably gets sold to CSI and other sites for closer to $50 (again, napkin math'd, I'm not a business major and I know there can be extenuating circumstances, contract riders, etc). Which means that, give or take, they allotted a value for production (and perhaps other aspects like shipping and whatnot) for about $25 for a core.
This is how sites can sell for 30%+ off MSRP and still turn a profit, they're using the Walmart style approach of moving high quantities of material at a lower profit margin per unit. Their 'free shipping' in the US plays into this as well; someone wants one or two things, and then adds one or two+ to the order to qualify. Even if they have a sale and drop the price considerably, it can either be to clear out things that have been sitting on shelves, or an effort to draw people in who want X or Y steeply discounted item, and hopefully snag a few other things with a better return to fill out the order.
Give or take, the napkin math Morgan and I did ages ago assumed roughly 7,000 Battle Cry tiers worth of support, between the various tiers themselves, and rounding up somewhat to account for pledge manager upgrades.
We know from the Open House and from pics of the pallets that they ordered a LOT of wave one. Even selling at wholesale (half off'ish), they *should* be coming ahead of the game. Even at a steeper discount, turning product back into cash obviously is a valuable exchange, especially when they do it directly and perhaps make up a bit more in shipping or something like that.
Hell, even selling it at a minor loss would be superior to sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise, though obviously there are limits to this, especially if they go so low that they're basically signalling the community that it's a fire sale.
I'm guessing that if anyone even hints at an interest in Robotech (not RRT, just the anime in general) that they'll use expansions to pad out the grab bags (a pack of VT's is nearly half of the expected 'value' within one! Wooo!), but I also remain skeptical that those things are bought in such massive quantities to make much of a difference in their bottom line or available resources.
But as a way to turn stuff that's building up dust on shelves and to milk people for full MSRP 'worth', it's not nothing.
actually your quote is a it high on PB's cost for a starter box, after getting it and shipping it, ea. starter box probably costs them about $17 ea. (yeah that low, when you figure the amounts they had ship of full containers) the add -on boxs probably cost them about maybe $5-7 ea. now mind you that is just production and shipping, these costs do not factor in the cost of design and making the molds for the minis, but those costs would not increase the initial cost much due to the QTY. made. (maybe add a $1 to cost), now as to what PB sold to the distributor who then sold to CSI (or if direct to CSI?), they (PB) may have doubled their cost which is usually normal, now as to what PB spent all of the wave one money on thats still a debate, they say they have the money and yet produce noting for the game, hell they didn't even have any GenCon promo item either which makes one think that maybe they are out of money but did it all go to RRT? most likely the bulk of it did, (while some debate is open about the NG stuff getting a few bucks) but then why did PB run out of money? answer is simple poor planning and a seriously lack of knowledge about the system, instead of PB coming up with new designs for getting past a certain level, maybe they should have done larger Qty's of the base game items instead.(bet they are wishing they did that now), as it goes if they stuck with the Base game models their start up would have been around $180K to $200K (which boggles the mind why they had a very low funded point) and that is just for the design and mold making and the other item designs, then you go into the cost of actually making the minis and printing up the boxs, rules, cards etc. which unit point cost is based on desired QTY. (in other words more you make the cheaper the per unit cost is).
so for those of you who say PB should do at least one model now and ship that out, it would increase their costs to the point it is not feasible, it would be like say you can send five boxs for $5 ea. or just one box for $10, you do the math.
now why do I say PB is out of money? its simple the longer they drag this out the higher their costs are going to get to get it done, i've already noticed an uptick in per unit costs across the board for miniatures and it will only get higher. what would have cost $10 to do last year already costs $12 this year and will increase even more. by PB stalling like this it shows their intentions of never doing this, and for those of you who think PB will use the money from the Rifts board game to finish this project they will not cause their is no money to be made in it, the fact they are still sitting on product from the first launch of the game tells them it is dead.
furthermore I believe even if the Rift's board game does fund, they will not even bring out the board game since they will want their cut of it, and after they get their cut, KS gets its cut, then taxs taken out, there will not be enough to even do the box for the game let alone the game itself.
As it goes PB is currently drowning in debt and barely staying afloat, their production as of late has been dropping and they are being shuttered because of their debt to companies and to the backers of RRT, right now its just a matter of time till PB declares bankruptcy protection, which they better do soon before that is not an option with our ever changing law system and people looking at Trumps bankruptcies as their poster child. (which is not that many when you look at all his ventures).
so as the story goes, there is no wave 2 or whatever of RRT ever coming out and there will be no RIFT's board game coming out even if it is funded.
The Aug 28, 2014 (Now Shipping!) update has a picture that shows there were 5,834 boxes containing 3 Core sets apiece that were shipped as part of wave one. That comes out to 17,502 core boxes alone.
Using the napkin math from above, that is ~$437,550 for the core boxes alone. Unfortunately, we don't know how many add-on boxes there were, or how much "free extras" there were. We know from Kevin's tirade that overseas shipping was about $150,000; we don't have any numbers for domestic shipping. Also, don't forget that they bought a whole new system to handle the shipping, we don't know the cost of that, but I think we can safely assume it was paid with the RRT funds.
So, that leaves us with a known cost of $587,550. We're probably looking at about 30%-100% of that for the add-ons and shipping, so total spent on actual RRT could be between $770,000 to $1.2 million already.
And that was just well over a year ago. I can't imagine the whole one new book they've put out this year has kept their lights on...
Stormonu wrote: The Aug 28, 2014 (Now Shipping!) update has a picture that shows there were 5,834 boxes containing 3 Core sets apiece that were shipped as part of wave one. That comes out to 17,502 core boxes alone.
Using the napkin math from above, that is ~$437,550 for the core boxes alone. Unfortunately, we don't know how many add-on boxes there were, or how much "free extras" there were. We know from Kevin's tirade that overseas shipping was about $150,000; we don't have any numbers for domestic shipping. Also, don't forget that they bought a whole new system to handle the shipping, we don't know the cost of that, but I think we can safely assume it was paid with the RRT funds.
So, that leaves us with a known cost of $587,550. We're probably looking at about 30%-100% of that for the add-ons and shipping, so total spent on actual RRT could be between $770,000 to $1.2 million already.
And that was just well over a year ago. I can't imagine the whole one new book they've put out this year has kept their lights on...
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Stormonu wrote: The Aug 28, 2014 (Now Shipping!) update has a picture that shows there were 5,834 boxes containing 3 Core sets apiece that were shipped as part of wave one. That comes out to 17,502 core boxes alone.
Using the napkin math from above, that is ~$437,550 for the core boxes alone. Unfortunately, we don't know how many add-on boxes there were, or how much "free extras" there were. We know from Kevin's tirade that overseas shipping was about $150,000; we don't have any numbers for domestic shipping. Also, don't forget that they bought a whole new system to handle the shipping, we don't know the cost of that, but I think we can safely assume it was paid with the RRT funds.
So, that leaves us with a known cost of $587,550. We're probably looking at about 30%-100% of that for the add-ons and shipping, so total spent on actual RRT could be between $770,000 to $1.2 million already.
And that was just well over a year ago. I can't imagine the whole one new book they've put out this year has kept their lights on...
you forgot development cost.
I would figure the development cost would be factored into the cost of the product, but I may be giving them too much credit in that regard.
They bragged in the original Kick-starter that is was 98% done so Developmental cost should be minimum.
But if they need to hide where the money went.. this is a great line item..
The said truth is.. Please follow me on this.. The Mighty Morphin power ranger movie trailer looks great..
We all know that Sony is in talks with Harmony Gold for the Robotech licence. So if the MMPR movie does
well there is no reason for the Robotech movie not to get green lit.. Because any Giant Robot anime
licence will grabbed up and turned into a movie if the MMPR movie is a block buster..
Now.. Harmony Gold is aware of the issues with the RRT kickstarter.. Most of the Gaming industry is also aware..
So Sony will become aware of this, if they are not already aware.. That is why i think HG is gently pushing
Palladium to get something done..
But with Sony it is a big company .. and Harmony Gold wants to sale movie rights to sale more
merchandising rights.. To get away from the steaming pile, they would force HG to drop Palladium for a better
game company for any movie tie ins.. So no licence and no money means no Wave 2.
My personal feelings is this is what is going to happen, with Kevin's long history of borderline bankruptcy
multiple times maybe the end of Palladium ; .. There will be a Robotech movie.. but no RRT wave 2.
Plus how many people play WOTC Star Wars ship battles?? Because there is a newer, better version of it
from Fantasy Flight.. This is what will happen to RRT the game will be simply be replaced.
It will only be just a warning to people of how not to handle a game..
I think you're overreaching on how popular the Robotech movie will be (if it does ever materialize - personally I think it has the same chance in Hell as the Rifts movie), and how much Sony will care about the RPG/wargame.
As an example, in the past year or two the old Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato live-action movie was done. It barely made a splash - just enough it got a straight-to-dvd release in the US. There is an official Star Blazers tabletop wargame that's been out for many years; it was completely unaffected by the movie release.
If a Robotech movie is actually released (again, my belief is it will sit in development/IP wrangling Hell forever), it will have zero effect on Palladium's failure of the game. Sony might urge a toy line to be created, but I can pretty much guarantee they won't touch the RPG/wargame license - that all will be HG's millstone and the fact HG hasn't dropped PB by now shows they are far too lazy to care about what it may be doing to the IP. After all, its free money fro PB, even if its a trickle - and who in their right mind would pick up the game rights now with this KS in most interested folk's mind?
Easiest explanation is PB either does not have or is unwilling to spend the money to complete the KS.
They are somewhat fearful of litigation so claiming efforts with no specific commitment are their go-to method.
As well pointed out: quotes expire.
You even run out of places to quote for you as you let them expire.
Getting more quotes = a likely "fib".
The only part not over here, is PB likes the captive audience: they may have opportunity to sell more stuff.
Did they ever do those Robotech Art Prints shown in the Kickstarter? That 17x11 one from the original 1986 Macross RPG book would be sweet. I don't think I've ever seen the left side of that piece before.
The only flaw is that it would be signed by Uncle Kev.
GabrielV wrote: Did they ever do those Robotech Art Prints shown in the Kickstarter? That 17x11 one from the original 1986 Macross RPG book would be sweet. I don't think I've ever seen the left side of that piece before.
The only flaw is that it would be signed by Uncle Kev.
Considering the minimal effort it would take to do this, surely they have postponed the art delivery until after Wave 2 is complete.
After they recover the lost frig art it was tacked up next to.
Genoside07 wrote: They bragged in the original Kick-starter that is was 98% done so Developmental cost should be minimum.
But if they need to hide where the money went.. this is a great line item..
The said truth is.. Please follow me on this.. The Mighty Morphin power ranger movie trailer looks great..
We all know that Sony is in talks with Harmony Gold for the Robotech licence. So if the MMPR movie does
well there is no reason for the Robotech movie not to get green lit.. Because any Giant Robot anime
licence will grabbed up and turned into a movie if the MMPR movie is a block buster..
Now.. Harmony Gold is aware of the issues with the RRT kickstarter.. Most of the Gaming industry is also aware..
So Sony will become aware of this, if they are not already aware.. That is why i think HG is gently pushing
Palladium to get something done..
But with Sony it is a big company .. and Harmony Gold wants to sale movie rights to sale more
merchandising rights.. To get away from the steaming pile, they would force HG to drop Palladium for a better
game company for any movie tie ins.. So no licence and no money means no Wave 2.
My personal feelings is this is what is going to happen, with Kevin's long history of borderline bankruptcy
multiple times maybe the end of Palladium ; .. There will be a Robotech movie.. but no RRT wave 2.
Plus how many people play WOTC Star Wars ship battles?? Because there is a newer, better version of it
from Fantasy Flight.. This is what will happen to RRT the game will be simply be replaced.
It will only be just a warning to people of how not to handle a game..
you know how many movie rights Sony has sat on and never did anything with? them like other movie companies will buy and sit on movie rights for decades and will never do anything with them. its to prevent others from doing something with them which could create competition with Sony's own design movies and such. just because Movie company's put a few grand on a movies rights does not mean they have to make the movie.
also due to legal wrangling HG can not sell other rights to the genre just the ones they already have, which is why we got a RPG tactics instead of a table top miniatures game which they could have sold the rights to someone else. PB has the only game type rights other then electronic and no others can be made.
Stormonu wrote: As an example, in the past year or two the old Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato live-action movie was done. It barely made a splash - just enough it got a straight-to-dvd release in the US. There is an official Star Blazers tabletop wargame that's been out for many years; it was completely unaffected by the movie release.
Was it a low budget Scifi channel saturday night type movie? I didn't even hear about it (but I'm admittedly not a Yamato fan either). If so, that isn't what Sony supposedly has planned for Robotech. Now, whether or not *anything* actually happens is another point but it may not be fair to compare it to a movie that doesn't fit the same type of category planned. If the movie does end up ever getting made at an appropriate $50 million+ budget, I expect palladium to not be able to afford the probably ballooned license fee and to drop the line again... and use that as an excuse for why they won't be able to fulfill the kickstarter wave 2 rewards in 4-5 years totally beyond their control, they pinky promise! If no movie gets made, I don't see HG (and more specifically Tomy Yune and employee family/friends) passing up a minimum guaranteed yearly check from palladium in the meantime that helps justify their own salaries in the absence of any new robotech anime.
Stormonu wrote: As an example, in the past year or two the old Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato live-action movie was done. It barely made a splash - just enough it got a straight-to-dvd release in the US. There is an official Star Blazers tabletop wargame that's been out for many years; it was completely unaffected by the movie release.
Was it a low budget Scifi channel saturday night type movie? I didn't even hear about it (but I'm admittedly not a Yamato fan either). If so, that isn't what Sony supposedly has planned for Robotech. Now, whether or not *anything* actually happens is another point but it may not be fair to compare it to a movie that doesn't fit the same type of category planned. If the movie does end up ever getting made at an appropriate $50 million+ budget, I expect palladium to not be able to afford the probably ballooned license fee and to drop the line again... and use that as an excuse for why they won't be able to fulfill the kickstarter wave 2 rewards in 4-5 years totally beyond their control, they pinky promise! If no movie gets made, I don't see HG (and more specifically Tomy Yune and employee family/friends) passing up a minimum guaranteed yearly check from palladium in the meantime that helps justify their own salaries in the absence of any new robotech anime.
it was a foreign film and it was done pretty good, or at least as good as can be expected for a space opera involving large ships.
The live action yamato was not too shabby, but suffers from the tangled love plot as well as "dense" storyline. To be fair a lot of live action cross overs suffer the same fate, as they seem to be aimed at the existing fanvases.
If it were made I expect Robotech to be the same if it was made and remained faithful to the anime. However, can you imagine a big US sci fi summer blockbuster that cuts out from the action , so the heroine can perform a pop song?
AS for RTT, do you think Sony will merchandise the 30 year old models? Nah, they will be redesigned, so Kev's dreams of big Hollywood paydays are just that dreams and we wil still not get wave 2
Stormonu wrote: As an example, in the past year or two the old Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato live-action movie was done. It barely made a splash - just enough it got a straight-to-dvd release in the US. There is an official Star Blazers tabletop wargame that's been out for many years; it was completely unaffected by the movie release.
Was it a low budget Scifi channel saturday night type movie? I didn't even hear about it (but I'm admittedly not a Yamato fan either). If so, that isn't what Sony supposedly has planned for Robotech. Now, whether or not *anything* actually happens is another point but it may not be fair to compare it to a movie that doesn't fit the same type of category planned. If the movie does end up ever getting made at an appropriate $50 million+ budget, I expect palladium to not be able to afford the probably ballooned license fee and to drop the line again... and use that as an excuse for why they won't be able to fulfill the kickstarter wave 2 rewards in 4-5 years totally beyond their control, they pinky promise! If no movie gets made, I don't see HG (and more specifically Tomy Yune and employee family/friends) passing up a minimum guaranteed yearly check from palladium in the meantime that helps justify their own salaries in the absence of any new robotech anime.
Space Battleship Yamato (done in 2010, it appears) had a $12 million budget and was distributed by Toho (y'know, makers of the japanese godzilla films), so not a SciFi special. As posted above, I can't imagine Robotech would be any higher quality. I don't see it as a property Sony would be worth risking $50 million; it has very little name recognition outside of its 30+ year-old fanbase, unlike say Transformers, which you can still grab toys for in places like Walmart and such.
PB's big problem will be the IP payments to HG down the road, movie or not; if the funds haven't been wiped out keeping the license up, they soon will be - PB's production schedule can't keep them afloat and they can only sell so much old stock before they have to pay for more.
PB's big problem will be the IP payments to HG down the road, movie or not; if the funds haven't been wiped out keeping the license up, they soon will be - PB's production schedule can't keep them afloat and they can only sell so much old stock before they have to pay for more.
thing of it is, if PB loses the license then they are culpable for refunds, they can no longer stall or drag it out, they will have to refund since they can no longer put the game out. and not sure what will become of their left over stock if they can still sell it or not ?
PB's big problem will be the IP payments to HG down the road, movie or not; if the funds haven't been wiped out keeping the license up, they soon will be - PB's production schedule can't keep them afloat and they can only sell so much old stock before they have to pay for more.
thing of it is, if PB loses the license then they are culpable for refunds, they can no longer stall or drag it out, they will have to refund since they can no longer put the game out. and not sure what will become of their left over stock if they can still sell it or not ?
Yep, they'd have to start issuing refunds if that happened, and we all know that would truly and finally be the end of them. We would then know the stat of this Schordinger cat, though.
Not sure about the overstock, but it would be fitting if they ended up buried next to the copies of the Atari 2600 E.T. Games buried out in the desert (with a Resin SDF-1 sticking out of the sand like the prow of the Yamato?)
PB's big problem will be the IP payments to HG down the road, movie or not; if the funds haven't been wiped out keeping the license up, they soon will be - PB's production schedule can't keep them afloat and they can only sell so much old stock before they have to pay for more.
thing of it is, if PB loses the license then they are culpable for refunds, they can no longer stall or drag it out, they will have to refund since they can no longer put the game out. and not sure what will become of their left over stock if they can still sell it or not ?
Yep, they'd have to start issuing refunds if that happened, and we all know that would truly and finally be the end of them. We would then know the stat of this Schordinger cat, though.
Not sure about the overstock, but it would be fitting if they ended up buried next to the copies of the Atari 2600 E.T. Games buried out in the desert (with a Resin SDF-1 sticking out of the sand like the prow of the Yamato?)
actually a large allotment of those ET games were dug up and are or were being auctioned off:
I contacted HG to complain about PB. They seemed receptive to it and thanked me. It doesn't hurt to complain to them, they have a new vp that seems interested in what is going on.
n815e wrote: I contacted HG to complain about PB. They seemed receptive to it and thanked me. It doesn't hurt to complain to them, they have a new vp that seems interested in what is going on.
Exactly where did you do that at (can you link it?) I've got a few choice words to relay to them about PB.
Not sure about the overstock, but it would be fitting if they ended up buried next to the copies of the Atari 2600 E.T. Games buried out in the desert (with a Resin SDF-1 sticking out of the sand like the prow of the Yamato?)
In a way, it already has. See the gamestop dumpster diving video with unsold clearance robotech boxes trash picked from a dumpster shared with a card shop. I believe the line was something like "That gak'll sell like hotcakes on amazon!". The fool...
Thanks to all for the info on the Yamato movie. I'd definitely consider $12 mil to be low budget although obviously a step/order of magnitude above sharknado or aztec rex style films. They kept making a big deal about the low, tight budget on deadpool this past summer which "only" had $40 million-ish and they had to combine both characters and action scenes to make the money last while still looking good. At a bare minimum, I'd expect that amount.
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Albertorius wrote: So, in 30 years' time my RRT boxes may be worth something, is what you're saying?
Statisically, I'll probably be dead by then in that case. :(
n815e wrote: I contacted HG to complain about PB. They seemed receptive to it and thanked me. It doesn't hurt to complain to them, they have a new vp that seems interested in what is going on.
Exactly where did you do that at (can you link it?) I've got a few choice words to relay to them about PB.
Ditto. I'd like that info as well (especially if you got a response). Remember to stress that you're NOT buying any robotech (palladium or not) as a result of this bungled kickstarter (assuming that is the case as it is with me personally).
I'm with you on the 'movie' Warboss. I'm not expecting it to get a $100m+ budget (plus marketing), but the merchandising possibilities are known on various sites as it is. I'm sure they'd love to be hocking more VT's at retail and Max Sterling/Rick Hunter/Lisa Hayes costumes for halloween and soundtracks and DVD/digital purchases/etc.
I mean, District 9 was fairly effects heavy and was made on a $30m or so budget, as I recall. I'd figure this would get a B tier treatment; money for effects with an end goal of selling nostalgia and toys/merch, but not top A level 9 figure funding.
It has sat in development hell for too long to believe that someone is going to green light this thing with that kind of money finally, but I do agree that giving it a 'loose change and pocket fluff' treatment own't pull anything impressive in either.
That said, I'd be interested in the means of contacting HG to express my displeasure.
n815e wrote: I contacted HG to complain about PB. They seemed receptive to it and thanked me. It doesn't hurt to complain to them, they have a new vp that seems interested in what is going on.
Exactly where did you do that at (can you link it?) I've got a few choice words to relay to them about PB.
I messaged the Robotech.com facebook group, which is run by them. I told them we haven't seen progress in years and it is hurting the brand.
Kevin McKeever responded and said he was going to forward it up.
Thanks to all for the info on the Yamato movie. I'd definitely consider $12 mil to be low budget although obviously a step/order of magnitude above sharknado or aztec rex style films. They kept making a big deal about the low, tight budget on deadpool this past summer which "only" had $40 million-ish and they had to combine both characters and action scenes to make the money last while still looking good. At a bare minimum, I'd expect that amount.
Well, actually it had a budget of $23.9M, and it was one of the 10 highest budget movies ever made in Japan. Takuya Kimura lowered his talent fee to keep budget down, though.
They also made almost $50M at the box office, so not bad for non USAnian movie standards.
All that said, though, the Yamato 2199 series remake had a much bigger overall budget and a way better reception (and with reason, I'd say: it was both gorgeous and IMHO much better).
Albertorius wrote: So, in 30 years' time my RRT boxes may be worth something, is what you're saying?
oh they will always be worth something, a lot? debatable, but something.
Only if it brings down Palladium Books, Harmony Gold, shakes up the miniatures game industry and the unsold boxes end up in a landfill somewhere in Michigan.
Not necessarily landfill, but burying them somewhere known only to Kev and his Fan-Friends would possibly prevent them from being taken if/when the company goes into liquidation.
Although saying that, the liquidation company are likely to miss the most valuable bits of property in the office anyway.
Kidneys, bah, kidneys are for noobs....I go right for the appendix! Also, after all these years I still type NGR instead of NG...on top of autocorrect trying to mess it up further.
Conrad Turner wrote: Not necessarily landfill, but burying them somewhere known only to Kev and his Fan-Friends would possibly prevent them from being taken if/when the company goes into liquidation.
Although saying that, the liquidation company are likely to miss the most valuable bits of property in the office anyway.
Kev's Fridge Art!
actually Kevin already has an escape plan set up with Wayne, where right before Kevin files Bankruptcy Wayne will have purchased product and IP ownership to Kev's IP's for a small nominal fee so that when Kevin files bankruptcy there will be nothing left.
Stormonu wrote: Aren't we straying a little into personal attack territory here? I mean, no love for the folks behind this fiasco, but...
On topic - have they finished posting all the cards yet? Seems like that was the only movement on this "boiling pot" of late.
they are on wave one cards still I think ? and as to your first part if about me i'm just asking a question, hence the ? at the end. how many smart ideas is Kevin known for ?
I may fall asleep at some point and not notice when all the cards are posted.
I promised I would let the Battlescribe guy who is handling Robotech know when they are all out so he can update the list.
So please give a resounding cheer when they are all "officially" posted.
Yes, even despite Mike had those suckers done like forever ago.
well, wayne finished uploading all the UEDF character cards today, so theres only 9 Zentraedi and malontent version of Maloquin remaining. Five days. October 31st should be the lastday of these uploads...
Thanks to all for the info on the Yamato movie. I'd definitely consider $12 mil to be low budget although obviously a step/order of magnitude above sharknado or aztec rex style films. They kept making a big deal about the low, tight budget on deadpool this past summer which "only" had $40 million-ish and they had to combine both characters and action scenes to make the money last while still looking good. At a bare minimum, I'd expect that amount.
Well, actually it had a budget of $23.9M, and it was one of the 10 highest budget movies ever made in Japan. Takuya Kimura lowered his talent fee to keep budget down, though.
They also made almost $50M at the box office, so not bad for non USAnian movie standards.
All that said, though, the Yamato 2199 series remake had a much bigger overall budget and a way better reception (and with reason, I'd say: it was both gorgeous and IMHO much better).
Just as an aside, I HIGHLY recommend Space Battleship Yamato 2199; I've watched it on KissAnime recently and it resparked my interest in the franchise, to the point my Christmas list looks like a fleet organization diagram for the series.
I should point out that the money (likely a couple hundred) going to raise my Yamato/Star Blazers fleet could have easily been spent on RRT models, if this hadn't gone south...
Nesbet wrote: well, wayne finished uploading all the UEDF character cards today, so theres only 9 Zentraedi and malontent version of Maloquin remaining. Five days. October 31st should be the lastday of these uploads...
Oh, noes, you're making magic!!!! How on earth have you managed to merge all our hard work into a small amount of actually useable files!!
[/sarcasm]
Thanks for that, Mike. I couldn't muster the courage to download Palladium's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormonu wrote: Just as an aside, I HIGHLY recommend Space Battleship Yamato 2199; I've watched it on KissAnime recently and it resparked my interest in the franchise, to the point my Christmas list looks like a fleet organization diagram for the series.
I should point out that the money (likely a couple hundred) going to raise my Yamato/Star Blazers fleet could have easily been spent on RRT models, if this hadn't gone south...
Wholeheartedly agreed, on both accounts. IMHO Space Battleship Yamato 2199 is the golden standard for a remake that wants to be faithful to the original... only, you know, better in every possible way, from internal consistency to characters to action to budget.
And the plastic figures are both affordable and perfect for fleet games.
yeah Mike, thanks for that magic, LOL.
But the deal with october 31st is: what will PB do next? They will not have more cards to upload and so, they would not be """"WORKING""""
Yeah, they still need to try to get all the minis done and that will happen "soon". Hence why I just check in now and then and have moved on to focusing on Nodal Wars. RRT is dead except for the most extreme of fans thanks to how it was handled.
Nesbet wrote: yeah Mike, thanks for that magic, LOL.
But the deal with october 31st is: what will PB do next? They will not have more cards to upload and so, they would not be """"WORKING""""
Don't forget, they have not used the cards as the solo proof that they are "working" on it, there's 'old reliable' "Getting Quotes" that they can use after Halloween!
Well here's a quote for them. "Get off the pot and do something! Put out a single miniature and sell it to the public first, I don't care." I was thinking, many years ago, of buying that Mac.II after I had my pledge. Who wouldn't want that beast in their collection? But as the years go by, the only fun I'm getting out of this anymore is the fact that I can have a little laugh every time I think about how hard Kev clings to the thought that he is doing his best, but I know HE OWES ME! Bet that thought would just burn him up inside, then multiply it by 5,300 odd backers.
I've been emailing Kickstarter every week this month letting them know it's been one month plus X weeks since an update from PB. I even wrote to PB and got a fun response;
As mentioned before regarding your requests for a
refund of the RRT Kickstarter rewards, Palladium
Books is not offering any refunds on the RRT Kickstarter.
Palladium has successfully fulfilled shipping
Wave One rewards and is currently working
on the RRT Wave Two rewards. Once they are
completed we will deliver it when they are done.
Now we have reviewed your email inquires and will
not respond or dignify future inquires, threats
or responses that contain vulgar or insulting
commentary. Palladium has been more than civil
with you, but we do not nor will we have to
tolerate your disrespectful tonality. Updates
will be posted as progress is made.
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books
I told them to not bother shipping my rewards but to instead "forcibly insert them horizontally into (their) rectal cavity" The response to the above message from them can't be posted on this site.
Trying to get banned from KS since I'm never going to use it again nor any crowd funding site. As a matter of fact I've liquidated all of my miniature-based games because even looking at them reminds me of the money I wasted on RRT.
Mike1975 wrote: Yeah, they still need to try to get all the minis done and that will happen "soon". Hence why I just check in now and then and have moved on to focusing on Nodal Wars. RRT is dead except for the most extreme of fans thanks to how it was handled.
Yeah, the "extreme" fans just make it their own.
Helps when people provide the missing cards and others make 3D models and things get printed.
It is funny how it can be "fun" thinking, "I am not getting that model from PB in the next decade so how can I get something equivalent in scale?".
It all flows from there and is oddly fun with reasonable payback.
So yeah, any ideas for the Zent infantry troops, Armored Valk, Jotun, Yf-4, Glaug Eldare, Nousgarma-Ger and the Monster I am all ears.
Zent Infantry---- a few people have done some or you can buy Sedition Wars ones cheap like I did.
Armored Valk - Just use a Battletech Crusader. I now have 4.
Jotun - Meh, you could use a number of stand in minis or print ones that I had made. There does not appear to be enough interest in just that mini for people to 3D model it.
Ha, that'd be hilarious if that was the master Monster for the RRT line.
Sadly, while there's plenty of substitutes for the RRT models we didn't get, the fact is we shouldn't have to do these substitutions; PB is on the hook for what they promised us and they ought to either actually deliver or admit it isn't happening and deal with the consequences. That they keep dragging the inevitable out (no delivery) is maddening and frustrating because everyone else is turning a blind eye.
If PB were to admit they can't deliver, I wonder if Kickstarter would be culpable as well since they did advertise this KS as one of their "top picks/highly recommended"?
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, how is the Savage Rifts Ks going? From what I saw, they're 25% done with the PDFs (which were supposed to be out in June...) and it looks like the print books are supposed to be out in Nov? It appears they're falling behind too.
That Mac looks awesome... and its metal so you can break someones foot by dropping it.
Palladium can say they are working on RRT for eternity.. is there some type of law saying
they spent enough time and need to give refunds.. I mean if you take your car in to get worked
on and they keep telling you that they are working on it and not.. what would be your recourse.?
It's only 1 pound of metal - half the weight of an Empire Steam Tank.
The biggest problem with it is that it's metal. Those arms and barrels are going to need Viagra in a few years, whereas a plastic model would still be standing strong.
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's only 1 pound of metal - half the weight of an Empire Steam Tank.
The biggest problem with it is that it's metal. Those arms and barrels are going to need Viagra in a few years, whereas a plastic model would still be standing strong.
Not if you expect to commit extreme heresy.
Drill, pin, putty-fill and mount the sucker on a base and paint the darn thing.
Like a form of toy taxidermy in the name of gaming.
I think I would do that to the Matchbox version.
I know this is very frustrating for some of our Kickstarter supporters, but we just cannot provide specifics until it is all nailed down. We don’t want to tell you one thing now, and something else later. Things are still fluid and changing.
Do you think Kevin got a phone call from Harmony Gold?
I know this is very frustrating for some of our Kickstarter supporters, but we just cannot provide specifics until it is all nailed down. We don’t want to tell you one thing now, and something else later. Things are still fluid and changing.
Do you think Kevin got a phone call from Harmony Gold?
I'm hoping so. They seem to be the only ones at this point capable of holding Kevin's feet to the fire. As for the quote, standard PB wankery. Hey Kevin, you can't talk about specifics NOW? Then how about talking about THEN? I can understand (conceptually at least) about not talking about plans currently under negotiation. But in the last two years, all the pushes and discussions and communications haven't resulted in a single example where you can throw someone under the bus? Unless these negotiations are the same as was going on two years ago (in which case, say that), tell backers about what went wrong. Why it seems that PB aren't going with the initial manufacturer. What plans fell through that forced 2015 to be written off when you were sure things were going on. What things you were mentioning that were going to happen earlier this year, heating up for Summer, etc.
I'm a backer in several campaigns that are over a year late (and several that were that late when they did deliver). And I don't sweat it, because the creators have kept us apprised of the problems they're facing, and so I give them some leeway. The only other campaign I was a part of where I got mightily pissed, was Spaceship X (ABS Space Hulk terrain) where they went dark for 6 months. I don't think PB can recover from the ill will now, to where people might trust/forgive them, but they might mitigate some of the hate and regain a small sliver of credibility if they got their act together. But like with when they do do the occasional reasonable update, they quickly return to form. I fully expect the next Kickstarter Update to start with "Hi guys, sorry about the silence...". Because it's their way. They don't seem to be capable of change. Living in a world of ignorance and faffery.
Speaking of faffery, in the latest PBWU, in the section on the rushed (in time for Halloween!) yet delayed (well.... not so much) Hell Followed book, we get this gem.
I was flattered and thrilled when Alex stepped into my office after reading the section on Masked Lunatics and Heroes, and said, “Kev, this writing is truly inspired. I loved it. Totally unexpected.” Awesome.
I think we know now why Kevin is so slow to turn things around. Quick turns are likely difficult when you've got several employees with their lips permanently attached to your arse.
A random very flattering comment from someone financially dependent on staying in Kevin's good graces on the eve of the release of a new rpg book is totally unexpected? It happens almost every time in his murmurs for years.
warboss wrote: A random very flattering comment from someone financially dependent on staying in Kevin's good graces on the eve of the release of a new rpg book is totally unexpected? It happens almost every time in his murmurs for years.
Now I don't get that from the quoted section. To me, it's Alex saying to Kev that the writing was superb, and he found that totally unexpected. That makes more sense, at least.
The quote was “Kev, this writing is truly inspired. I loved it. Totally unexpected.” after all.
warboss wrote: A random very flattering comment from someone financially dependent on staying in Kevin's good graces on the eve of the release of a new rpg book is totally unexpected? It happens almost every time in his murmurs for years.
Now I don't get that from the quoted section. To me, it's Alex saying to Kev that the writing was superb, and he found that totally unexpected. That makes more sense, at least.
The quote was “Kev, this writing is truly inspired. I loved it. Totally unexpected.” after all.
It would be nice if your view were an accurate interpretation, but I doubt that optimistic appraisal.
This exact kind of thing has been going on in Uncle Kev's announcements even when they were in his RPG books or back in the Magic of Palladium Books newsletter days. Alex regards Uncle Kev as undeniably brilliant and visionary on a regular basis. Uncle Kev has to tell us this because it's really important we know how awesome he is, and Uncle Kev is all about tell, don't show.
Alex is the same guy who said that the invention of the Printing Press wasn't of any real historical importance.
Genoside07 wrote: From Palladium games Oct 27th update.
I know this is very frustrating for some of our Kickstarter supporters, but we just cannot provide specifics until it is all nailed down. We don’t want to tell you one thing now, and something else later. Things are still fluid and changing.
Do you think Kevin got a phone call from Harmony Gold?
Looking at the wording of this, I would bet money it was a phone call from HG saying they have been "hearing complaints from kickstarter backers".
It seems a very typical response from Kevin when hit with criticism.
I am unsure what specifics they would ever provide since they never get anything "nailed down".
They have never nailed a release date of their core competency publications so it is difficult to determine what they are waiting for.
As to telling us "one thing now and something else later" when has this ever stopped them before??
See the reason why things are "fluid and changing" as months and years march on, technology changes and quotes expire so they "change".
warboss wrote: A random very flattering comment from someone financially dependent on staying in Kevin's good graces on the eve of the release of a new rpg book is totally unexpected? It happens almost every time in his murmurs for years.
Now I don't get that from the quoted section. To me, it's Alex saying to Kev that the writing was superb, and he found that totally unexpected. That makes more sense, at least.
The quote was “Kev, this writing is truly inspired. I loved it. Totally unexpected.” after all.
Good catch. I see master wordsmith Kevin is as accurate and precise in writing his weekly update text as his game rules.
GabrielV wrote: This exact kind of thing has been going on in Uncle Kev's announcements even when they were in his RPG books or back in the Magic of Palladium Books newsletter days. Alex regards Uncle Kev as undeniably brilliant and visionary on a regular basis. Uncle Kev has to tell us this because it's really important we know how awesome he is, and Uncle Kev is all about tell, don't show.
It is more likely a "keep your job" survival trait where if you do not blow a little sunshine up his nether region, he would get grumpy with you and possibly go looking for someone who would be more "compatible" or at least knows their place in the scheme of things.
Or find yourself as the primary suspect in a "crisis of treachery", or at least suspected for grabbing Kevin's refrigerator artwork.
Man, what I have been saying here is rather petty (my best guess at truth though) but I think it is all about the root of his character.
RRT we thought was a commitment to get a series of things made in exchange for the money given (despite being "not a store").
For those who would say "but you would have never seen this otherwise", I think I would have had a fair bit of success looking at 1:200,1:170, 1:100 (seems the best) or 1:72nd scale models since they all seem to be plentiful.
Anyway.
There I go again pretending what Kevin says matters.
Lalalala I am ignoring him and doing my own thing.
Alex is the same guy who said that the invention of the Printing Press wasn't of any real historical importance.
I sincerely hope this is a joke.
Nope. He said it shortly after the time when Bill Coffin had his meltdown and spilled the beans about the inner workings of Palladium Books. It was part of the defense of Uncle Kev still doing his book layouts with a wax board in 2005. Alex also at least implied that he and Uncle Kev viewed electronic layout as a passing fad.
n815e wrote: The thing about PB employees to remember is that they are all Kevin's pals that needed jobs.
Actually I think his father runs the warehouse and his wife is over the main office...so half pals and half family maybe...
I was thinking if Kevin doesn't like the complaining, it would be the other way where there is no interest at all where everyone has
completely wrote off the game. Having a dead game that the licence holder wants you to still make is a hard place to sit.
Kevin then beamed like a little kid and begged Alex to put it on the fridge. He did, and the next time Kevin had heart palpitations, the work disappeared again, and only surfaced again on Wayne's Ebay account.
That shows how much I keep up with the company..Just want my missing RRT stuff so I can split away from them finally..
Another thing I thought about was... What if Uncle Kevin is telling the truth.. and it taking mouths to
get a quote back... [maybe he is using written letter and mail] . But if so.. Is this the type of company you want
to work with?? If they are that slow on something that is part of every day business, then what is the
other departments like.. slow production? poor quality?? who knows..
Genoside07 wrote: That shows how much I keep up with the company..Just want my missing RRT stuff so I can split away from them finally..
Another thing I thought about was... What if Uncle Kevin is telling the truth.. and it taking mouths to
get a quote back... [maybe he is using written letter and mail] . But if so.. Is this the type of company you want
to work with?? If they are that slow on something that is part of every day business, then what is the
other departments like.. slow production? poor quality?? who knows..
I'd say the most likely scenario is Palladium were asked to provide more information when they asked for the quote, so Wayne has been super busy uploading two words a day.
Today marks 50 days since the last Kickstarter Update. That makes it the fourth longest period without an Update during this campaign (just beating out the period before Update 189 dropped).
The Horizontal Axis shows the Update Number (with the alternating greyscale showing 6 month blocks), starting with the first Update after the campaign was initially due (Jan 1st, 2014). The Vertical Axis shows the time until the following Update (or now, in the case of 195).
Also, in case you can't see it, there does appear to be a trend.
If no Update drops this week, it'll move into third place, beating out Update 174. But don't worry, guys. They're totally working on it!
I did have a similar chart up on PB's FOTM, but it appears they've done another purge of "dissenting information".
Guys...everytime there is a new book about to drop we generally get one or two staffers who seem to unexpectedly and "surprisingly" to Kevin, go into Kevin's office to specifically tell him how awesome his writing is and specifically HIS writing even though most of the book has been written by someone else entirely in most cases.
This time it is Alex. Last time I think it was Chuck and Wayne. Before that Julius. Wash rinse repeat.
jaymz wrote: Guys...everytime there is a new book about to drop we generally get one or two staffers who seem to unexpectedly and "surprisingly" to Kevin, go into Kevin's office to specifically tell him how awesome his writing is and specifically HIS writing even though most of the book has been written by someone else entirely in most cases.
This time it is Alex. Last time I think it was Chuck and Wayne. Before that Julius. Wash rinse repeat.
Exactly.
It's always his best werk EVAR! Especially when it was written by someone else.
If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.
Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?
It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...
If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.
Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?
It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...
Because it was explicitly stated as ABS plastic, I don't think they could make that change without offering a refund for those backers who do not wish the material change. It might be a sketchier argument if it was a slightly different plastic, but resin/metal/origami cardboard would be a "material" breach (I made a funny!) IMO. This was a specifically defined thing, and a unilateral change without offering people an out, would be problematic. Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.
That doesn't take into account how resin isn't particularly useful for a project of this size. Anything in a BattleCry, they're going to need approximately 7K of, for character models. and 15K+ of anything else. Labor (it takes longer per), and production costs (resin molds degrade much faster, so redo) likely wouldn't be commercially viable (vs plastics) at that scale. Depending on if PB do manufacturing locally (ie, within the US), the inherent increased labor costs will probably mitigate the increased shipping costs (resin being heavier, and needing better protection). If it's international, shipping costs would be absurd.
The PDF cards MIGHT have withstood scrutiny, except in consistent PB fashion, they screwed themselves here in Update #49.
All game cards, across the entire game, will be upgraded to laminate cards. Use your dry erase markers to track damage and ammo. No sleeves required!
Highlighted section indicates the problem.
Basically, PB are in a huge pickle with regards promises made. Minor infractions might have been able to be ignored, if they hadn't dicked people around for the better part of three years (and counting). People's intolerance for change, general desire for a refund, and vitriol for the company, are at all time highs. A smartly run, communicative campaign can and has gotten away with changes. Not all backers are happy (Shadows of Brimstone, and Heavy Gear, for example have had changes), but that's usually countered by a large number of the backerbase who are supportive. With RRT, there are very few backers publicly supportive of Palladium, and most of those are heavily caveated. Kevin's basically up poop creek without a paddle, and that's the reason they're playing the long game.
That's not to say PB offering resin alts might not work. It's quite possible that a number of backers would take them up on it. If demand is significant enough, and if it looked like retail might have an impact, refunding those who don't want it, might be a minor inconvenience. After all, Kevin claims there's only a couple dozen backers who are unhappy. Of course, if that were true, they could have refunded those backers with relative simplicity, and avoided the last three years of people yelling and mocking them on the Kickstarter. So I don't think it's likely. Or even unlikely. But it's possible.
Really, I would not care. Doesn't matter to me (personal opinion) if PB decides to bring us wave 2 in resin, soft plastic, Reaper Bones plastic, chunks of metal, white metal or ABS. Even that cheap zvesda plastic would work for me. Anything would be better than empty promises...
Now, regarding options, I think the most "good/cheap" alternative would be Bones. Details in resin could be fantastic, but as stated before, is expensive, requires a lot of work to cast them, transport them, send them, etc... Almost the same with metallic miniatures. And soft plastic break too much, bones can be bent, but does not break
On other topic... Wayne uploaded the final card remaining today: Sulreen-Tehr. Just one. The last one.
Any thoughts about what's happening next?
I am not part of the industry but what I think.....
It would really depend on what the format original drawings or sculptures are in. I remember originally the files they had was the wrong type for the manufacturer; so all
the files had to be redone. So if the files (if there is any) could be 3D printed out,assembled, then maybe they could do resin casts of that...So Yes. But with that being said..
The big thing I would worry about is quality.. Palladium games have no clue how to do resin molds and Uncle Kevin would be the over seer of it. If you look at
their current rift miniatures, most look awful; It looks like they try to do everything in house or use someone that has little to no experience for the cheapest way possible.
Maybe this is the delay all along.. the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and
Uncle Kev don't want to pay the right people to do the job correctly..
I think we should feel lucky the current models turned out as good as they did.. I would hope Harmony Gold had something to do with that to make sure it didn't damage
their licence..
Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.
Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's resin, not liquid cast death. If you have chemical sensitivities, you're likely less affected by contact with most resin than with the cya glue used to assemble models. If you're sanding it, it's generallly only an issue with prolonged aggressive sanding of large models (not applicable here)... And simple abrasive particulate precautions like ventilation and a 50 cent mask solve that. Hobby knives likely cause more injuries every year than all of forgeworld's resin ever used will. While I agree that a change in materials would be a significant breach of the kickstarter contract given the emphasis palladium themselves put on the material, it's not a public health hazard if they did so.
Well, looks like we are still wrestling with the 3D model stage of wave 2.
They may not be usable as they are.
They would need hacking up based on the molding process used.
Until a process and company can be settled-on it is a "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" scenario.
If they can at least figure out a generic parts breakdown they could go with something like GHQ but with a polyurethane plastic (resin) instead of pewter.
Production time would be incredibly slow 15-30 minutes, hence why injection molding or pewter is so good: seconds to a couple minutes to demold.
That is why resin casting usually you want a bunch of model parts in one mold to be worth your while.
I have used materials like this: https://www.polytek.com/wp-content/uploads/EasyFloSeries_TechnicalBulletin_Polytek.pdf It may be an option if they do not want to play with metal molds anymore.
It would be nice for PB to get off the pot and figure out where they go from here and escape this farcical "analysis paralysis" stage.
They got wave 1 out so they really have no excuse since they demonstrated they could do something.
If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.
Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?
It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...
Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan.
Genoside07 wrote: the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and
Actually all model designs were done back in 2014 or even as early as 2013, Kevin and co. just don't want to pay to have them printed up and they are still in search of that elusive molder who will do it for product or stake in the company.
Just stumbled upon this whole topic and all I can say is...
Really, PB?
Really?
Yes, PB has been around for years, but so has herpes.
I just really can't believe Kevin & Co. tried to take on another project when they can't even keep up with the projects they are already supposed to be working on.
I just hope all of this doesn't affect their partnership with Pinnacle Entertainment (Savage Worlds: Rifts). But I also hope Pinnacle takes this as a warning to maybe start wrapping up any, and all, projects with PB before they find a reason to turn on them.
If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.
Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?
It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...
Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan.
Genoside07 wrote: the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and
Actually all model designs were done back in 2014 or even as early as 2013, Kevin and co. just don't want to pay to have them printed up and they are still in search of that elusive molder who will do it for product or stake in the company.
Assuming all the 3D models are good to go that is.........
Well, we've seen that at least one of the metal Con RRT models had its mold done from a 3D print (I think it was the female power armor; ask Nesbit about it ), so they know someone who *could* do it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind these figures in plastic or bones. I'm skeptical about PB and resin results, but metal would be right out. I've literally taken an oath I will not work with metal minis any more.
But we all know PB has long passed the point of Wave 2 being made of anthing more tha ice sculptures left out in the blazing sun.
Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.
Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's resin, not liquid cast death. If you have chemical sensitivities, you're likely less affected by contact with most resin than with the cya glue used to assemble models. If you're sanding it, it's generallly only an issue with prolonged aggressive sanding of large models (not applicable here)... And simple abrasive particulate precautions like ventilation and a 50 cent mask solve that. Hobby knives likely cause more injuries every year than all of forgeworld's resin ever used will. While I agree that a change in materials would be a significant breach of the kickstarter contract given the emphasis palladium themselves put on the material, it's not a public health hazard if they did so.
While I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment (resin doesn't bother me that much, other than the brittle nature of it), I should have probably tacked on a couple of "alleged"s in there. I do know some people claim to have a sensitivity to the material, but whether that's a physical sensitivity or a psychological isn't really all that important. Much like some GMO's or the like, some people have a specific aversion to it on philosophical grounds. For PB to go "Tough noogies, you'll take these objectionable items, we're done here!", wouldn't go over well. Especially as it wasn't what was promised.
And your point regarding precautions is good advice. But given PB's competency, do you trust them to properly inform backers about the appropriate safety precautions that should be taken? Sure, dedicated hobbyists know at least a little about dealing with resin. But as we've seen during the campaign, not all backers are hobbyists. And not all backers read the commentary. If even one backer gets a complication as a result, because of PB negligence, especially if someone raised that fear and were denied a refund, that's one too many. I didn't mean to overstate the risk, but it is one that some people do hold to.
I definitely don't think the risk of issue from resin comes close to the approximately 30 backers that statistically have died based on actuarial tables (approx one every 35 days) since the campaign was late. Obviously, the longer this campaign drags out, the more backers PB doesn't have to deal with. Eventually, there'll be noone to complain.
Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan..
Resin material costs are indeed higher than the cost of Polystyrene pellets. However, moulds are cheaper by a long way. This is why I've said from the start that for low numbers of runs such as the promised KS & con 'exclusives', resin was the obvious choice of material. Lets face it, tool steel moulds cost a lot of money and are generally used for millions of shots, rubber moulds - depending on the complexity, flexibility, and durability required [and don't forget, you can only choose 2!] can last for hundreds of shots or more. The problem I have always seen was one of scale. IF PB always wanted to keep their word about certain models being exclusive, it just didn't make any sense for them to make tool steel moulds - the cost of the mould outweighs the saving in material costs. Polystyrene also has conversion costs associated with it. You have to heat the material up to get it to flow, then cool it down again to 'freeze' the plastic in the desired shape. There are many RTV resins on the market that don't have to go through that process. Small runs, even 5K+, can be cheaper than plastic, if you have people who know what they are doing [which I don't believe PB does] and you plan properly for the demand and production requirements [which I don't believe PB CAN].
I just hope that they are doing this correctly. Deciding to change the material BEFORE you cut the moulds is generally a good thing, changing material AFTER is a serious mistake as you have just had moulds made that you can no longer use, and have wasted significant money. Polystyrene has a liner coefficient of thermal expansion of 70, unfilled resin is between 60 and 80, but we are talking about filled resin, so would be lower. This means that if you tried to put the sort of resin I would expect PB to be using IF they went to resin, it would shrink less on cooling than a PS component. This could mean simply a larger model comes out than was expected, or it could break or stick in the mould.
@Morgan: No worries and thanks. It's just a pet peeve of mine as I said and I see it alot here on dakka (every few months or so). Yes, there are risks to your health associated with resin but with the vast majority of folks in the vast majority of situations the lifetime risk approaches zero even *without* simple common sense precautions. It's like gasoline... it's toxic and even a carcinogen... but that doesn't mean if you spill a few drops on your hand every month while filling up the lawn mower that you strip naked and start screaming at your neighbors to call for a mobile EPA decon unit while you quickly write out your last will and testament before the cancer disseminates. You simply try not to spill it and wash your hands if you do. The same sensible care and precaution applies with resin.
Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.
Stormonu wrote: Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.
CBT plastics are indeed hard plastic and mostly one piece. Kevin has went on and on about reducing part counts, but if he had spent as much time on actually reducing the part count as oppose to talking about it, we'd be done by now.
Stormonu wrote: Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.
CBT plastics are indeed hard plastic and mostly one piece. Kevin has went on and on about reducing part counts, but if he had spent as much time on actually reducing the part count as oppose to talking about it, we'd be done by now.
Well... I suppose all but one of the remaining wave two models (iirc the SDF) are currently at a combined zero parts count so massive success much fun! from Palladium's point of view. Remember, they don't owe us since most of us (minus I pledged and only got some decals dakkite) got more than our pledge's retail value already according to one attorney general response by Palladium..
One part plastics are not what I signed up for. Perhaps something is better than nothing, but imagine one part VF battloids all in the lifted leg pose...
Yeah, I can imagine a unit of 4 super valks in the same soldier pose, but I can also imagine you converting them. It's a bit hard to imagine getting them done by yourself though. As you said, would be better than nothing. :(
Kid_Kyoto wrote: If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.
Yes. I'd accept a resin MAC-II in scale with the Wave 1 stuff.
Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan..
Resin material costs are indeed higher than the cost of Polystyrene pellets. However, moulds are cheaper by a long way. This is why I've said from the start that for low numbers of runs such as the promised KS & con 'exclusives', resin was the obvious choice of material. Lets face it, tool steel moulds cost a lot of money and are generally used for millions of shots, rubber moulds - depending on the complexity, flexibility, and durability required [and don't forget, you can only choose 2!] can last for hundreds of shots or more. The problem I have always seen was one of scale. IF PB always wanted to keep their word about certain models being exclusive, it just didn't make any sense for them to make tool steel moulds - the cost of the mould outweighs the saving in material costs. Polystyrene also has conversion costs associated with it. You have to heat the material up to get it to flow, then cool it down again to 'freeze' the plastic in the desired shape. There are many RTV resins on the market that don't have to go through that process. Small runs, even 5K+, can be cheaper than plastic, if you have people who know what they are doing [which I don't believe PB does] and you plan properly for the demand and production requirements [which I don't believe PB CAN].
I just hope that they are doing this correctly. Deciding to change the material BEFORE you cut the moulds is generally a good thing, changing material AFTER is a serious mistake as you have just had moulds made that you can no longer use, and have wasted significant money. Polystyrene has a liner coefficient of thermal expansion of 70, unfilled resin is between 60 and 80, but we are talking about filled resin, so would be lower. This means that if you tried to put the sort of resin I would expect PB to be using IF they went to resin, it would shrink less on cooling than a PS component. This could mean simply a larger model comes out than was expected, or it could break or stick in the mould.
problem is PB will not make anything they will not make money on, especially if they have to shell out money to do it, so resin is not an option, furthermore you get more pressings with an ABS mold overall then you would with a resin mold. so the cost is lost on having to make more resin molds, but this is pointless PB has realized they will not make money on RRT so they are figuring why throw good money after bad money so will not be doing wave 2, instead they will drag it out till they are not responsible to supply by law. (when the statue of limitations runs out here real soon)
If not literally one piece, then 2 or 3 or 5 pieces, something easier to work with for us non-modelers, but with enough variety available to keep the more skilled hobbyists happy (or with a little modification, we already see that with the existing models).
There are shades of gray between "1 piece" and "24+ pieces", as we've noted hundreds of times.
Standard Bones isn't a great material, agreed. I backed for a few add ons in the Bones 2 campaign, and while I'm happy with what I got for the price I paid, I wouldn't call them necessarily high quality stuff (not that I'm an expert judge either). But with Bones 3 they introduced a Harder/rigid Bones (lawl) formulation that I'm hoping works out well for the weapons packs I bought to kit out some of my Shadows of Brimstone figures.
Not that I'm saying it's something they should go with, just noting that Reaper is branching out to different materials aside from the usual rubbery stuff.
warboss wrote: @Morgan: No worries and thanks. It's just a pet peeve of mine as I said and I see it alot here on dakka (every few months or so). Yes, there are risks to your health associated with resin but with the vast majority of folks in the vast majority of situations the lifetime risk approaches zero even *without* simple common sense precautions. It's like gasoline... it's toxic and even a carcinogen... but that doesn't mean if you spill a few drops on your hand every month while filling up the lawn mower that you strip naked and start screaming at your neighbors to call for a mobile EPA decon unit while you quickly write out your last will and testament before the cancer disseminates. You simply try not to spill it and wash your hands if you do. The same sensible care and precaution applies with resin.
I work in the plastic packaging industry and know about the same... Over the years I tried to warn people buying from Chinese recasters that the material they were using COULD be toxic...
Everyone acted like I was trying to ruin a good thing.. All I was saying if they are willing to break copyright what makes you sure they won't use cheaper materials that could be hazardous..
But when I originally backed RRT I was very hopeful that Ninja Division was going to do all the heavy lifting.. and I wanted to have battles with Hover Tanks, Robotech masters and invid..
But Palladium Games can't even get out items like the Rick and Roy Veritech that was to be in the original main box set.. Three years later
In KevCo's defense, they did get out the long-delayed Northern Gun book(s) for RIFTS shortly after the Robotech Kickstarter funds were collected...
Now it would be improper to accuse them of illegal conversion (which would also be an illegal breach of contract), but it's hard to imagine any other explanation that provides a reasonable doubt.
Aside from gross incompetence. Which isn't really that much better.
"Okay, we have all this money now, what do we do with it?"
"Put $100k into printing NG1, we'll make that back and then some."
*fast forward a few months*
"So how much did we make over our investment on NG-1?"
"We lost $75k. We're using crates of spare copies to make blanket forts in the warehouse."
"Feth. Okay, look, put an extra half mil on core boxes and other wave one stuff, we'll turn that into another million easily, especially stuffing grab bags with 'em and off all the sweet full MSRP sales we'll be doing."
*fast forward a few month*
"So, how close are we to that million in the bank again?"
"We're not. Tank is running dry. The warehouse has a truly epic rampart/battlements thing going on. The fan friends who swing by are forming teams and launching daring raids in live action Capture The Flag matches."
Would now be a bad time to mention that PB is supposedly reaching out to peoole who have done their own "wave two" minis via 3d printing? I say supposedly because it is something I cannot actually verify but it would not shock me if it were true.....
jaymz wrote: Would now be a bad time to mention that PB is supposedly reaching out to peoole who have done their own "wave two" minis via 3d printing? I say supposedly because it is something I cannot actually verify but it would not shock me if it were true.....
Then the intention or actions that would result in this "reaching out" is what I am most curious about.
Would it be any of the following:
- To find out the "creators" of the 3D models and contact them for 3D editing or creation?
- To arrange some licensing(ish) agreement with them to use a master copy of their work for mold creation?
- To talk to those who have done their own casting and look at a more "home-brew" kind of pumping out miniatures with "fan-friends"?
- Expand their contacts for places that can make models "on the cheap"?
Any of these answered could give some indication of what their major malfunction is other than the usual.
n815e wrote: They are looking for quotes.
"How much did that cost you to make?
Got a quote, now we can say we did something..."
PB-"How much did that cost to make?"
Guy-"Almost nothing."
PB-"Make that for us at the same price."
Guy-"No."
...
...
PB-"Make that for us and Kevin will sign your copy of the RRT rules."
Guy-"You are kidding right? Oh, no you are not.... No."
PB-"Make that for us and we will give you a bunch of free stuff."
Guy-"Of my choosing at least?"
PB-"No."
Guy-"... take... a... hike."
PB-"We are glad you agreed to .... uh, was that a no?"
They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Joyboozer wrote: Really, that should read Kevin reaches for pink slip of paper, cut to nine years worth of editing and excuses later, someone is fired.
well Kevin usually waits till he needs money to pay the bills before firing someone saying they stole his precious fridge art.
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Very true.
At least we know why NMI has been buying up Shapeways models, now.
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Very true.
At least we know why NMI has been buying up Shapeways models, now.
Merijeek wrote: Of course not. You can't stick a computer file to a refrigerator! And even if you did, the magnet would ruin the 5.25" floppy!
THINK before speaking!
You're assuming John was referring to a COMPUTER file. This is palladium after all (re: wax machine layout until 2007ish). It's just as likely that it was a physical file folder filled with crumpled papers and 3d printed masters clipped via their feet to the fridge by a magnet.
jaymz wrote: Would now be a bad time to mention that PB is supposedly reaching out to peoole who have done their own "wave two" minis via 3d printing? I say supposedly because it is something I cannot actually verify but it would not shock me if it were true.....
I hope you are wrong. Very wrong. The only thing I could imagine about that is PB harrassing 3D sculptors for the rights of Robotech TM (R) (C) that Kevin still has and blah blah blah... just promising them hell for sculpting the designs.
Contacting them to offer jobs? buying the designs? LOLMAO
Kevin Simbieda thinks he did no wrong... It is really sad that he is at the level of most criminals..
Once a great publisher.. now more than likely almost bankrupt and a pile of dept.. not understanding
and no one around him showing him the errors of his ways..
Bankrupt? Nah.. he's probably sitting on several hundred thousand of our dollars while his staff likely "work" on the project only for a few minutes a day when averaged out based on the lack of results. Even if it's not enough to actually make wave 2 because they supposedly spent our money on extra retail wave 1 copies, it's still a sizeable slush fund to keep the lights on and bills paid while things "boil" on the project.
warboss wrote: Bankrupt? Nah.. he's sitting on several hundred thousand of our dollars while his staff likely "work" on the project only for a few minutes a day when averaged out based on the lack of results. Even if it's not enough to actually make wave 2 because they supposedly spent our money on extra retail wave 1 copies, it's still a sizeable slush fund to keep the lights on and bills paid while things "boil" on the project.
you are deluding yourself if you think they still have money, they are broke.
warboss wrote: Bankrupt? Nah.. he's sitting on several hundred thousand of our dollars while his staff likely "work" on the project only for a few minutes a day when averaged out based on the lack of results. Even if it's not enough to actually make wave 2 because they supposedly spent our money on extra retail wave 1 copies, it's still a sizeable slush fund to keep the lights on and bills paid while things "boil" on the project.
Quite possibly Genoside was meaning insolvent, rather than bankrupt. I know some people have stated all the Kickstarter money has been spent, and that's possible, but I wouldn't bet my house on it. But I do think it's highly probable if not all but guaranteed, that the amount of cash remaining on hand, plus liquid assets PB control, aren't sufficient to complete the remainder of the project or provide refunds to backers, and having no outstanding projects or accounts that will cover that difference.
I know there's a difference regarding accounting/legality there, but to the layman (including me), they're arguably a difference without distinction.
I just felt most likely bankruptcy because in the past around 2006 and another time I think they were almost bankrupt.
Insolvent could possibly work also..But I'm a hillbilly and we can't afford big words like that..
What products are really selling?? I don't think any distributor are ordering RRT for restock and I know game stores are not..
Most of the time I seen it on clearance racks verses regular stock racks..
What keeps them afloat? I don't have a clue... Outside of misspent kickstarter money
Morgan Vening wrote: But I do think it's highly probable if not all but guaranteed, that the amount of cash remaining on hand, plus liquid assets PB control, aren't sufficient to complete the remainder of the project or provide refunds to backers, and having no outstanding projects or accounts that will cover that difference.
That is my guess as well. I also suspect that they occasionally reach out to get quotes hoping that by some stroke of luck that the price will come down to what they have left over on hand after gamblng too much of our money instead of just their own on retail stock (on top of rising costs after 3+ years of limbo). That is of course simply conjecture based on their lack of progress and choice to not comment on the real questions backers keep asking. In the absence of real information that would qualify as them keeping us updated per their own kickstarter contractual terms, conjucture is all we have (and frankly has turned out to be more accurate in practice than official spin/statements to the contrary).
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Autarch wrote: Other than one game book and two rifters this year I don't know.
Afloat may not be the word, circling the drain might be more appropriate.
Don't forget the officialTM RiftsTM PokerTM deckTM of CardsTM. They blew through 150 copies in the month or two surrounding gencon at iirc $12 a pop and even had to order a restock! You can see why they prioritize that global market over getting out robotech wave 2 product from the measly $1.4+ million kickstarter. Logic would dictate that those cards sell better than RRPGT given the progress on the former and the lack of any on the latter. Oh, and dice bags, commerative mugs, pencils, and embroidered glitterboy jackets.
Genoside07 wrote: I just felt most likely bankruptcy because in the past around 2006 and another time I think they were almost bankrupt.
Insolvent could possibly work also..But I'm a hillbilly and we can't afford big words like that..
What products are really selling?? I don't think any distributor are ordering RRT for restock and I know game stores are not..
Most of the time I seen it on clearance racks verses regular stock racks..
What keeps them afloat? I don't have a clue... Outside of misspent kickstarter money
Apologies for speaking for you.
As to what they're selling, this year it appears to be one book (of the 8+ promised), a couple of preorders (that continually get pushed back), and a large (at least for PB) push to sell Christmas Gift Bags. With maybe the exception of conventions, that seems like their primary income for the year.
Sure, there might be some additional periods of selling back catalog stuff, but frankly, anyone who doesn't wait for CGB or CIJGB (in July) sales for that kind of thing, is arguably wasting money. That, and a few licensing renewals (counteracted in part by their own), and that seems to be it. As others have pointed out, at least anecdotally (as you have) their market penetration seems to be almost non-existent. And it seems like with the exception of Q4 2014 (when RRT went retail), that's it since CoT (2006?).
Morgan Vening wrote: But I do think it's highly probable if not all but guaranteed, that the amount of cash remaining on hand, plus liquid assets PB control, aren't sufficient to complete the remainder of the project or provide refunds to backers, and having no outstanding projects or accounts that will cover that difference.
That is my guess as well. I also suspect that they occasionally reach out to get quotes hoping that by some stroke of luck that the price will come down to what they have left over on hand after gamblng too much of our money instead of just their own on retail stock (on top of rising costs after 3+ years of limbo). That is of course simply conjecture based on their lack of progress and choice to not comment on the real questions backers keep asking. In the absence of real information that would qualify as them keeping us updated per their own kickstarter contractual terms, conjucture is all we have (and frankly has turned out to be more accurate in practice than official spin/statements to the contrary).
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Autarch wrote: Other than one game book and two rifters this year I don't know.
Afloat may not be the word, circling the drain might be more appropriate.
Don't forget the officialTM RiftsTM PokerTM deckTM of CardsTM. They blew through 150 copies in the month or two surrounding gencon at iirc $12 a pop and even had to order a restock! You can see why they prioritize that global market over getting out robotech wave 2 product from the measly $1.4+ million kickstarter. Logic would dictate that those cards sell better than RRPGT given the progress on the former and the lack of any on the latter. Oh, and dice bags, commerative mugs, pencils, and embroidered glitterboy jackets.
See, that's what we know. Palladium is making inroads into the casinos, where the real money is...
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Bingo. This is exactly what happened to the artists for the rifts card game.
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Bingo. This is exactly what happened to the artists for the rifts card game.
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Bingo. This is exactly what happened to the artists for the rifts card game.
Knowing them, the logic is sound.
Why ask to have someone help you nicely when you can forcibly try to take it from them and possibly receive "corrupted" files with the message "that is all I have".
"Does not play well with others" springs to mind.
I wonder if PB has this kind of project team:
I would probably label as the following:
Henshini wrote: They seem more like the kind of people who would contact you about your models, try to claim they owned the rights to make them and threaten to sue you if you didn't give them the files.
Bingo. This is exactly what happened to the artists for the rifts card game.
Bought some packs when they came out, and then the game started fading and a store in the area was selling them for like 1/2 off or more, so I snagged a bunch. Wasn't really a fan of the game after trying to play it a few times, so they got stuck in a box for literally more than a decade.
A couple of years ago I went through them, and using a list that noted the rarity of each, tossed the commons and uncommons.
Yeah, going by artwork (if I wanted to keep any) might have been wiser, and no I don't expect them to ever have any value whatsoever, but I used that as an arbitrary line to pitch like 98% of them, with a few kept with other random CCG cards I've collected over the years (like the odds and ends that used to be included with Inquest Magazine in the 90's).
Between that, selling off more of my old Rifts collection a few years ago, and finally pitching the Rifts novels into the recycling, what little PB stuff I still own has dwindled to maybe 15-20 books, mostly those with sentimental value (gifts and/or ones tied to characters I enjoyed back when my group played so many years ago).
Oh and one box of RRT figures sitting on a shelf, dwarfed by the piles of Shadows of Brimstone figures and game stuff I actually love and use regularly.
Yeah, it's a hard habit to break. Recently, I was largely staying away from the thread and purposely not posting (closing down several windows AFTER typing out a message in the quick reply window) for over a largely successful month but then Palladium came out with that "update" and it was all downhill...again. :( I've been off of the offiicial forums and the kickstarter comments and never been a big facebooker commenter so dakka is the last outlet for that angst left to go. I reserve the right to silently rage fist and finger wag every time I get the weekly spam letter though.
I would be interested in the card story also...give us the dirt...
That is what scares me about putting any art online.. like deviant art..
If you did a picture of Robotech or Glitter boy.. could they take it and use it ??
If you fight for it; technically your using the property without permission...
RRT is ever on our minds as we gear up to for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two in 2017. There are no final details or dates we can yet release, but 2017 is a must for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Things are still fluid and changing. In the meanwhile, we are continuing to offer support by way of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com, and more coming down the pipe. Things like the force organization chart and other RRT related materials, and game support and events for next year.
So, it looks like they're at least acknowledging that 2017 is make or break. Though I expect them to extend that as need be, obviously. Still no details, only vague platitudes. Given the state of RRT listed, it looks like you can write off any meaningful information until at least next year. Not that I expected that, but it's surprising PB seem to be admitting it themselves.
Nothing else in the PBWU of any note, other than Kevin congratulating himself on his haunted house, and the usual need for praise from Xmas Grab Bag buyers.
RRT is ever on our minds as we gear up to for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two in 2017. There are no final details or dates we can yet release, but 2017 is a must for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Things are still fluid and changing. In the meanwhile, we are continuing to offer support by way of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game cards every day on DriveThruRPG.com, and more coming down the pipe. Things like the force organization chart and other RRT related materials, and game support and events for next year.
So, it looks like they're at least acknowledging that 2017 is make or break. Though I expect them to extend that as need be, obviously. Still no details, only vague platitudes. Given the state of RRT listed, it looks like you can write off any meaningful information until at least next year. Not that I expected that, but it's surprising PB seem to be admitting it themselves.
Nothing else in the PBWU of any note, other than Kevin congratulating himself on his haunted house, and the usual need for praise from Xmas Grab Bag buyers.
So, it looks like they're at least acknowledging that 2017 is make or break. Though I expect them to extend that as need be, obviously. Still no details, only vague platitudes. Given the state of RRT listed, it looks like you can write off any meaningful information until at least next year. Not that I expected that, but it's surprising PB seem to be admitting it themselves.
The 2017 bit is mostly repeated from last week's update.
Genoside07 wrote: I would be interested in the card story also...give us the dirt...
That is what scares me about putting any art online.. like deviant art..
If you did a picture of Robotech or Glitter boy.. could they take it and use it ??
If you fight for it; technically your using the property without permission...
My understanding is no. If you create work, even if you've drawn Superman or Mickey Mouse it's yours no one else can use it without your permission.
But if you're creating a derived work using someone else's copyrights, like Superman or Mickey Mouse, you can't distribute it either. You can't publish it, sell it, or even give it away. And that includes putting it online. People might not buy Superman comics if they can get yours for free.
If the rights owner wants it they can play hardball, sell us the rights or we'll sue you. Or they can be nice, we can't let the unlicensed work sit out there, we'll sell you a licence for $1. Or they can ignore it.
Not everyone was paid before Precedence went under. Then Kev got hold of or maybe already had the original art and not only didnt give the artists anything for it but as an extra kick reprinted some of it in the ultimate rifts book without any compensation. He said that as it was all redone art of existing palladium work (like coalition soldiers, dogboys, etc) he owned the copyright, and it all belonged to him anyway, so he didnt have to pay them for it. At least one of the artists said it wasnt worth the cost of going to small claims court over.
So, it looks like they're at least acknowledging that 2017 is make or break. Though I expect them to extend that as need be, obviously. Still no details, only vague platitudes. Given the state of RRT listed, it looks like you can write off any meaningful information until at least next year. Not that I expected that, but it's surprising PB seem to be admitting it themselves.
The 2017 bit is mostly repeated from last week's update.
You're right, it is a repeat. Sometimes my eyes glaze over reading that faff. But it does seem a little more urgent than previous years. Usually it's full of overoptimistic promises. The using of the "but 2017 is a must" seems to be more than their usual faffery.
I expect that this time, next year, we'll be getting updates like
"Things are boiling for RRT! We can't go into details or give away secrets, but 2018 is going to be a big year for RRT and the release of Wave 2. We continue to offer support for RRT by releasing two sentences a day of the conventional rules, available to download now in separate files!"
Well, since we have Wave One to compare to, how serious they are will start to shape up pretty quickly if they're serious (spoiler alert for those not paying attention, I'm aware how unlikely it is that they're actually serious).
Wave 1 had 11 figures (off the top of my head) on... I want to say 9 sprues (Pods, Artillery Pods, 2 for the Command Pod pack, Battloids, Fighters, Guardians, 1 each for the Destroid pairs).
Wave 2 has around two dozen figures (no idea on the sprue count, but I think we can safely say that the MAC-II won't be a single sprue unless it's the size of a small table), but they have a good number of molds to cut, and while I'm told that's not super time consuming, it's something they do have to get to.
Plus roughly a dozen resin elements. Whether they do those locally or abroad, that comes to roughly 3 dozen elements in Wave 2 for the figures/resin alone (plus box art and whatever other logistics are involved, I'm not in mini production, anyone who tries to assume this is a comprehensive list is a fething idiot, not to put too fine a point on it, you know who you are).
- Molds were allegedly being made in August 2013, though there are references to "final mold-making" in late January, presumably this includes making molds, test shots, shipping stuff around, vetting it, and getting refinement. Still, uh, they probably want to get on that.
- They had prototypes for most of the figures by early/mid 2014,
- Manufacturing began in June (with production in "full swing" in July).
- Containers started moving to the port/ship in July, and arriving in the warehouse in August/September.
- Actual (more than just the core boxes) shipping began in October.
While the rule book and blast template and dice and other odds and ends surely amounted to some work, with half the figures and none of the resin to finish, they still barely completed wave 1 in 3-4 quarters. By that standard, if we assume they want to try to pry some sales out of the public by Black Friday, they need to follow a similar path (but faster, because of the extra stuff to finalize and make).
Which is a long way of saying that if they aren't punching molds soon, if they aren't showing off more prototypes soon, if they aren't committing to something (whether they share what that is or not) soon, it'll go from a presumed lie to a transparent lie.
I mean, I know my audience, obviously most of us don't think 2017 is going to happen, but even I know that lies should generally not be so easy to prove to be so, and it won't be too long before we're at that point again.
You're right, it is a repeat. Sometimes my eyes glaze over reading that faff. But it does seem a little more urgent than previous years. Usually it's full of overoptimistic promises. The using of the "but 2017 is a must" seems to be more than their usual faffery.
No worries. It just stuck out for me as a large part of my weekly silent finger wag at the monitor when I was reading it so I remembered. It was novel (despite my own thoughts that 2015 was the make or break year) last week but sadly is on the cusp of graduating into cut and paste blather if repeated for a third time with no discernable progress described in the meantime..
Forar, that really all assumes that they plan and use past experience as the basis of that plan.
Considering they never reach a release date and there is a huge amount of procrastination going on there, it seems that one of the weaknesses of the PB business model is that there is no structured planning going on there and it all runs on Kevin's immediate whim.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To help you decide on your wishlists, I've put some of the AMAZING options for those surprise packages here:
Rifts® Movie Script: Rifts® Path of the Storm™ is a fun read, and includes a handful of character stats and some source material for your game, as well as some background about the Rifts® movie.
Some "movie script" that Kevin wrote?
And then there's this great item:
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ SAMPLER – you get a sample sprue with two game pieces and the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Rule Book, the 112 page, full color rule book. $40 value. See what all the excitement is about.
You have to give them a good reason to consider you:
Robotech RPG Tactics™ Expansion Packs – A small number of RRT expansion packs have been put aside for the 2016 Surprise Package. Give us a good reason to include one or two and we’ll consider you.
We also have some simple dragon head sketches by Kevin Siembieda ($20 value)
Hurry up and get an art print signed by the artist AND Kevin (because Kevin signs everything in reach).
Art print: Rifts® 20th Anniversary – Signed, Limited Edition Print – by Mike Mumah. This print IS signed by the artist, Mike Mumah, and Kevin Siembieda.
Very telling of how they manage their budget:
Palladium/Rifts® Christmas cards... These are all pretty awesome and will not be reprinted when sold out. We’ve been using them for years.
We can, and I will, say that Kevin should be made to suffer for his lies and deceipt. That he should be made penniless and homeless as a result of his actions.
At first I thought you were joking about the damaged part since I searched the email and didn't find the word but it's in the palladium online store entry.
Note: Some book titles may be slightly damaged (bent corner, scuffed, nicked, etc.) so we can send you MORE product.
All items are “hand-picked” by Kevin Siembieda from YOUR “wish list.”
That does seem oddly appropriate given Kevin's bad attitude for years towards Robotech backers that he'd "hand pick" "damaged" items to send you for Christmas in your Grinch Grab Backer Bag. As for adding Robotech to the grab bag...
Give us a good reason to include one or two and we’ll consider you.
I suspect the success rate of getting requested dead stock Robotech items in your grab bag approaches 100% if you just give them exactly 45 "good" reasons plus shipping and handling.
At first I thought you were joking about the damaged part since I searched the email and didn't find the word but it's in the palladium online store entry.
Note: Some book titles may be slightly damaged (bent corner, scuffed, nicked, etc.) so we can send you MORE product.
All items are “hand-picked” by Kevin Siembieda from YOUR “wish list.”
That does seem oddly appropriate given Kevin's bad attitude for years towards Robotech backers that he'd "hand pick" "damaged" items to send you for Christmas in your Grinch Grab Backer Bag. As for adding Robotech to the grab bag...
Give us a good reason to include one or two and we’ll consider you.
I suspect the success rate of getting requested dead stock Robotech items in your grab bag approaches 100% if you just give them exactly 45 "good" reasons plus shipping and handling.
hah PB is wanting to get rid of the eye sores so if your reason is "because" they will send you Robotech (but with a S&H rate more expensive then the actual product maybe).
speaking of which thinking I might list some of my Robotech stuff on eBay, just need to figure out prices, for instance thinking like a squad of veritechs with 12 minis for $150 shipped in US? mind you they are painted and assembled not great job on either but a decent table top standard also come with a foam to hold them. will that be a decent price to ask for them?
speaking of which thinking I might list some of my Robotech stuff on eBay, just need to figure out prices, for instance thinking like a squad of veritechs with 12 minis for $150 shipped in US? mind you they are painted and assembled not great job on either but a decent table top standard also come with a foam to hold them. will that be a decent price to ask for them?
That sounds like a ridiculously high price for that amount of RRT miniatures.
speaking of which thinking I might list some of my Robotech stuff on eBay, just need to figure out prices, for instance thinking like a squad of veritechs with 12 minis for $150 shipped in US? mind you they are painted and assembled not great job on either but a decent table top standard also come with a foam to hold them. will that be a decent price to ask for them?
That sounds like a ridiculously high price for that amount of RRT miniatures.
What's your reasoning behind that number?
well $10 for a decent table top painted mini with decals x12 plus $10 on the foam which leaves $20 for shipping and such.
There aren't many sold listings for RRT on ebay, but at a glance, a set of 12 figures (full VT squad) that was built and primed (with minor basing for the Battloids) but not painted sold for $28 plus fairly cheap shipping (a random zip code entered looks like maybe $4 or so).
Obviously a paintjob (assuming the person likes it) will increase that amount, but I wouldn't expect to end up nearly that high.
Supply and demand. When the demand is negligible, it doesn't really matter how small the supply is...
