mrhappyface wrote:
If used correctly Fiends of Slaanesh can be quite OP; their -5I to enemies when charged can be quite a shock for I5 or less models, because their I becomes 0 they do not actually get to attack. When paired with high strength units with low I they can do some serious damage.
Their only problem is their lack of actual hitting power and that they are pretty easy to take down, but MSU of fiends to dip into combats when you want to deny attacks can be effective at higher point games.

Example: Wraith Knight vs Chaos knight, the WK wins, but if you charge a fiend in before the CK then the WK is denide any attacks and the CK can beat them quite easily... quite...

 Yarium wrote:
Wasn't it also a thing in 6th, and still is a thing I think, that at the end of combat any model that hasn't yet made attacks does so?

 EnTyme wrote:
I don't know if you would call them OP, but Immortals are sure as hell underrated, especially if properly buffed. Use Anrakyr and Szeras (with a luck roll for +5 T), and Immortals can really live up to their name.

 Yarium wrote:
Genestealer Cult:
New kids on the block, but already I hear people say that Abberants aren't that good. I think they're not seeing how, as the strongest and toughest unit in the codex, they benefit the most from all the buffs the army can give itself.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Eldar Scatbikes.

Troop Jetbikes that can take an heavy weapon each.

When people will figure it out, will go nuts. NUTS! Sadly game balance will be affected.

 Traditio wrote:
Thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Eldar Scatbikes.

Troop Jetbikes that can take an heavy weapon each.

When people will figure it out, will go nuts. NUTS! Sadly game balance will be affected.

The humble Wraithknight. 295 points of GMC goodness, with a couple of D weapons. Especially nasty when paired with Scat bikes and Spiders.

 BBAP wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Eldar Scatbikes.

Troop Jetbikes that can take an heavy weapon each.

When people will figure it out, will go nuts. NUTS! Sadly game balance will be affected.

The humble Wraithknight. 295 points of GMC goodness, with a couple of D weapons. Especially nasty when paired with Scat bikes and Spiders.

Could you fit those psyker HQ dudes in there as well? Can't remember what they're called. I think they can take bikes as well.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Thunderfire cannons aren't a secret and Whirlswinds aren't op

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's a little jem: Imperial Psykers for Inquisition. One Psyker plus two bare-bones Acolytes is 18pts, giving the cheapest point-for-point Warp Charge in the game. Unbound, you can get over 100 Warp Charges (and 100 rolls on Summoning...). Even bound, you can get something like 80. (A buncha ML1 Inquisitors to grant access to all those Acolytes.)
Sure, they are incredibly fragile (3 T3 5+ wounds), but who cares? Turn one, you just summon an entire second army. (Assuming you can reliably pass a ML3 power with 8 dice, you're summoning a whopping 8 units on turn one. And since most armies can't kill 80+ individual targets with anything resembling speed...)

If you don't care about friends, respect, money, or time, it's practically an auto-win.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's a little jem: Imperial Psykers for Inquisition. One Psyker plus two bare-bones Acolytes is 18pts, giving the cheapest point-for-point Warp Charge in the game. Unbound, you can get over 100 Warp Charges (and 100 rolls on Summoning...). Even bound, you can get something like 80. (A buncha ML1 Inquisitors to grant access to all those Acolytes.)
Sure, they are incredibly fragile (3 T3 5+ wounds), but who cares? Turn one, you just summon an entire second army. (Assuming you can reliably pass a ML3 power with 8 dice, you're summoning a whopping 8 units on turn one. And since most armies can't kill 80+ individual targets with anything resembling speed...)

If you don't care about friends, respect, money, or time, it's practically an auto-win.

 BBAP wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's a little jem: Imperial Psykers for Inquisition. One Psyker plus two bare-bones Acolytes is 18pts, giving the cheapest point-for-point Warp Charge in the game. Unbound, you can get over 100 Warp Charges (and 100 rolls on Summoning...). Even bound, you can get something like 80. (A buncha ML1 Inquisitors to grant access to all those Acolytes.)
Sure, they are incredibly fragile (3 T3 5+ wounds), but who cares? Turn one, you just summon an entire second army. (Assuming you can reliably pass a ML3 power with 8 dice, you're summoning a whopping 8 units on turn one. And since most armies can't kill 80+ individual targets with anything resembling speed...)

If you don't care about friends, respect, money, or time, it's practically an auto-win.

Yeah, but you're summoning, like, Bloodletters and stuff. Someone earlier was talking about Whirlwinds; one of those would have a field day here.

... or maybe any Psyker who rolls Possession just runs into the middle of the field and Possesses himself on turn one. You're bound to have at least 5-10 of those, so that's 5-10 Bloodthirsters on turn one. The rest of your dudes summon Horrors, some of whom will have Possession, then turn two they Possess themselves for another 3-5 or so Bloodthirsters; the rest summon Horrors, etc etc. Top kek.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Inq don't get access to Malefic.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Source? Because unless that got changed very recently, you're completely wrong. Inquisition aren't Grey Knights.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Source? Because unless that got changed very recently, you're completely wrong. Inquisition aren't Grey Knights.

I believe it was changed in a stealth update to the digital codex.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/689345.page

Yoyoyo wrote:
You're right, it doesn't explain anything.

Feel free to buy the digital codex and have a look for yourself.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Eldar Scatbikes.

Troop Jetbikes that can take an heavy weapon each.

When people will figure it out, will go nuts. NUTS! Sadly game balance will be affected.

 malamis wrote:
IG Punisher Vulture - Best thing in the armory, in some cases better than Pask, and almost 2/3rds the price with no upper limit
IG Trojan - 35 pts for preferred enemy on a squad of tanks or a superheavy tank, *for any faction*

SM Mortis Contemptor - Intercept at bs5 and *optional* skyfire, with 2 multimeltas and 2 krak missiles, or a 12 shot assault cannon. Quite possibly the best null deploy hard counter there is, at least for imperials

SM Templar Close Combat Scouts - 110 pts for a maximum 36 s4 close combat attacks on top of 10 bolt pistols. Can and do wipe out vanguard. Even more fun with a powerfist.

AnomanderRake wrote:Craftworlds: War Walkers. They've gotten lost in the hullabaloo over Scatterbikes but they're almost the same price (60pts for two heavy weapons as opposed to 27pts each), tougher (2-HP AV10 with a 5++), MSM-capable (Battle Focus), and can get more gun options if necessary. They may not be fast Troops units, but they couldn't give the entire Codex fantastic offensive price-performance, unparalleled deployment flexibility, and the power to make mockery of any scenario.

SM: Salamander Land Speeders. Fluff-heresy par excellance, but in the Flameblade Strike Force 50pts nets you two Deep Striking S6 Heavy Flamers.

Grey Knights: Nope. Everything performs exactly like you'd expect (Dreadknights do well, everything else underperforms unless it's in a very, very specific game situation or used as allied shenanigans).

Inquisition: The humble Henchmen warband has the power to do a lot of silly things. People get into fights with them without realizing what Death-Cult Assassins do, they can make the cheapest summon-spam list imagineable (18pt unit of three models with a Mastery level), and the old Chimera rules let them load up with heavy weapons and make terrifying impromptu battle tanks.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok
Space Marines: Hmmm, this is tough, no units in the codex is OP

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think hive guard are really good for what you pay. for 165 you get 6 str 8 ignore cover shots from some pretty tough units at decent range that don't even require LOS. BS3 is't great but the downsides end about there.

Exocrines are pretty nasty too but quite expensive. Still a really tough MC with 6 str 7 ap2 shots.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Who said anything about summoning Bloodletters?... I never suggested that people use this to summon Bloodletters. We're all well aware that Bloodletters suck.

 General Kroll wrote:
You got me all excited with the summoning Henchmen thing. But the Inquisitor codex clearly states they can only cast Sanctic powers :(

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Codex>BRB

 Crazyterran wrote:

 malamis wrote:
IG Punisher Vulture - Best thing in the armory, in some cases better than Pask, and almost 2/3rds the price with no upper limit
IG Trojan - 35 pts for preferred enemy on a squad of tanks or a superheavy tank, *for any faction*

SM Mortis Contemptor - Intercept at bs5 and *optional* skyfire, with 2 multimeltas and 2 krak missiles, or a 12 shot assault cannon. Quite possibly the best null deploy hard counter there is, at least for imperials

SM Templar Close Combat Scouts - 110 pts for a maximum 36 s4 close combat attacks on top of 10 bolt pistols. Can and do wipe out vanguard. Even more fun with a powerfist.

Mortis contemptors haven't been bs5 for like two years now.

And if you stand still to get interceptor I'm pretty sure you get saddled with Skyfire too.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Salamanders in the Guard IA book. Great alternatives to sentinels of both types.

On a AV 12/10/10 platform, fast tanks(no-one misses them not being walkers), outflank, autocannon + heavy bolter, then give them a heavy stubber.

That's 6x S7 ap4 + 9x S5 ap5 + 9x S4 ap6 shots flanking enemy units and armour. Ok it's 195 points (cost of 4 Armoured Sents or 5 scouts) ... but damn you should look at peoples faces when they shred units.

 malamis wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Salamanders in the Guard IA book. Great alternatives to sentinels of both types.

On a AV 12/10/10 platform, fast tanks(no-one misses them not being walkers), outflank, autocannon + heavy bolter, then give them a heavy stubber.

That's 6x S7 ap4 + 9x S5 ap5 + 9x S4 ap6 shots flanking enemy units and armour. Ok it's 195 points (cost of 4 Armoured Sents or 5 scouts) ... but damn you should look at peoples faces when they shred units.

Or 3 Wyverns, but i'll admit they have a significantly wider threat profile. Plus they're hilariously easy to scratch build, since it's literally 'a chimera' without the top part and some plasticard.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, 7th Ed Codexes and the FaQs/Errata that came out since the release of 7th (not the Facebook FaQs, the ones on the GW website) added Daemonology to the list of Disciplines the Psykers inside said codexes can use specifically.

Some Psykers for certain Codexes were purposeful not given access to Malefic with their codex releases/updates, like Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins and Inquisition.

 Pouncey wrote:
who still get to attack even if they die before their turn.

 Pouncey wrote:
Sisters Repentia.

At first glance, they seem incredibly pathetic. They get killed off so easily they're hardly a threat. Eventually you start to think of them as insignificant enough you devote your army's firepower elsewhere.

Then they actually manage to reach combat with a decent-sized squad, and the unit they reached ceases to exist because it was just attacked by a dedicated melee unit wielding the equivalent of chainfists who still get to attack even if they die before their turn.

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
who still get to attack even if they die before their turn.

You must be confusing sister repentia with wuffen.

Wakshaani wrote:
No one ever believes me, but, for the Tyranid?

Pyrovores.

The lil' guys do all the things that you need them to do, for a good price, and are just adorable lil' fluffballs at the same time.

But nobody takes 'em.

Love you, lil' Pyrovores!

Alcibiades wrote:


Assuming you're not joking, how do you use them? I really want to use the things.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

Why bother with the Autarch at all. You could have 6 more Reavers.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

Why bother with the Autarch at all. You could have 6 more Reavers.

For Character hunting I guess.

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

Why bother with the Autarch at all. You could have 6 more Reavers.

For Character hunting I guess.

Stopping Overwatch is a good thing too.

Alcibiades wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
No one ever believes me, but, for the Tyranid?

Pyrovores.

The lil' guys do all the things that you need them to do, for a good price, and are just adorable lil' fluffballs at the same time.

But nobody takes 'em.

Love you, lil' Pyrovores!

Assuming you're not joking, how do you use them? I really want to use the things.

MHaruspex wrote:
Dark Eldar Reavers. For the cost of a Tactical Marine, you have T4 3+ cover (5+ armor), Eldar Jetbike movement, Skilled Rider, and Rending Hammer of Wrath attack. Can MSU easily with 3 models per unit.

Roll night fighting turn one for 2+ jink and you've essentially got Terminators for less than half the cost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

Why bother with the Autarch at all. You could have 6 more Reavers.

For Character hunting I guess.

Stopping Overwatch is a good thing too.

Overwatch isn't even that dangerous. Even to t-shirt armies.

 BBAP wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, 7th Ed Codexes and the FaQs/Errata that came out since the release of 7th (not the Facebook FaQs, the ones on the GW website) added Daemonology to the list of Disciplines the Psykers inside said codexes can use specifically.

Some Psykers for certain Codexes were purposeful not given access to Malefic with their codex releases/updates, like Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins and Inquisition.

BRB epub, p.28 - "Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline". Right there in the rulebook. All psykers. It's nice that the FAQ/errata specifically added Malefic to the list of disciplines some psykers can roll on, but unless there's something which specifically abrogates the ability of Eldar, Harlequin and Inquisition psykers to summon Daemons, then the rulebook says they can.

Lack of access to Malefic is not the reason this army is bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Autarch on Jetbike with laser lance & Banshee mask in a unit of Dark Eldar Reavers with Caltrops.
Fairly cheap, 3+ Jink, devastating charge, denies overwatch has Hit & Run, will eventually have FNP, can potentially be T5

Surprisingly most of those benefits come from the DE, not the Eldar postion of the unit.

Reaver by themselves are highly underrated as MSU.

Why bother with the Autarch at all. You could have 6 more Reavers.

For Character hunting I guess.

Stopping Overwatch is a good thing too.

Overwatch isn't even that dangerous. Even to t-shirt armies.

SemperMortis wrote:
Speaking from the perspective of a T-shirt army player. YES! Overwatch is dangerous. not because it will remove a lot of models but because it will generally take 1-3inches off your charge and ruin a lot of those charges.

 General Kroll wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Craftworlds: War Walkers. They've gotten lost in the hullabaloo over Scatterbikes but they're almost the same price (60pts for two heavy weapons as opposed to 27pts each), tougher (2-HP AV10 with a 5++), MSM-capable (Battle Focus), and can get more gun options if necessary. They may not be fast Troops units, but they couldn't give the entire Codex fantastic offensive price-performance, unparalleled deployment flexibility, and the power to make mockery of any scenario.

SM: Salamander Land Speeders. Fluff-heresy par excellance, but in the Flameblade Strike Force 50pts nets you two Deep Striking S6 Heavy Flamers.

Grey Knights: Nope. Everything performs exactly like you'd expect (Dreadknights do well, everything else underperforms unless it's in a very, very specific game situation or used as allied shenanigans).

Inquisition: The humble Henchmen warband has the power to do a lot of silly things. People get into fights with them without realizing what Death-Cult Assassins do, they can make the cheapest summon-spam list imagineable (18pt unit of three models with a Mastery level), and the old Chimera rules let them load up with heavy weapons and make terrifying impromptu battle tanks.

You got me all excited with the summoning Henchmen thing. But the Inquisitor codex clearly states they can only cast Sanctic powers :(

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Craftworlds: War Walkers. They've gotten lost in the hullabaloo over Scatterbikes but they're almost the same price (60pts for two heavy weapons as opposed to 27pts each), tougher (2-HP AV10 with a 5++), MSM-capable (Battle Focus), and can get more gun options if necessary. They may not be fast Troops units, but they couldn't give the entire Codex fantastic offensive price-performance, unparalleled deployment flexibility, and the power to make mockery of any scenario.

SM: Salamander Land Speeders. Fluff-heresy par excellance, but in the Flameblade Strike Force 50pts nets you two Deep Striking S6 Heavy Flamers.

Grey Knights: Nope. Everything performs exactly like you'd expect (Dreadknights do well, everything else underperforms unless it's in a very, very specific game situation or used as allied shenanigans).

Inquisition: The humble Henchmen warband has the power to do a lot of silly things. People get into fights with them without realizing what Death-Cult Assassins do, they can make the cheapest summon-spam list imagineable (18pt unit of three models with a Mastery level), and the old Chimera rules let them load up with heavy weapons and make terrifying impromptu battle tanks.

You got me all excited with the summoning Henchmen thing. But the Inquisitor codex clearly states they can only cast Sanctic powers :(

The copy I'm looking at doesn't, Daemonology wasn't a discipline when it was printed. As far as the information I've got in front of me goes psykers in Henchmen warbands have a fixed known power and can't choose to roll for powers, but Inquisitors have the option of using either Sanctic or Malefic powers as per the Daemonology sidebar at the end of the psychic phase chapter. Either way your 18pt Henchmen warband with a Mastery level is mostly there to feed dice to the actual summoning units.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You need to update/redownload you're digital codex then because they updated it to list that they only get sanctic

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Sisters Repentia.

At first glance, they seem incredibly pathetic. They get killed off so easily they're hardly a threat. Eventually you start to think of them as insignificant enough you devote your army's firepower elsewhere.

Then they actually manage to reach combat with a decent-sized squad, and the unit they reached ceases to exist because it was just attacked by a dedicated melee unit wielding the equivalent of chainfists who still get to attack even if they die before their turn.

They're once per game Act of Faith merely gives them Feel No Pain 3+.

 Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

 BBAP wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You need to update/redownload you're digital codex then because they updated it to list that they only get sanctic

None of the Codexes I've seen - including the Chaos Daemons one - explicitly state that their psykers can use Malefic powers. I actually thought Daemons couldn't do it when I first read the book because it's not listed there, but then you go to the BRB and it tells you any psykers aside from Grey Knights can attempt to manifest Malefic powers.

If you want to use the "Codex trumps rulebook" argument then no psykers can use Malefic powers, including Daemons.

 BBAP wrote:
I've got the latest batch of FAQs in front of me. I'm not seeing the errata at all.

 BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

Except they do, The Daemon, CSM, and AM ones do state that they have access to daemonology powers

 BBAP wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

That unit costs 358 points. T3, footslogging, rerolling saves in CC only, no FNP, no nothing. 358 points. It's difficult to kill in close combat and will likely smush anything it touches, but for 358pts it damn well better.

I mean, I guess it's the best Repentia noob-hammer you could build entirely from the Sisters Codex, but why would you want such a unit?

 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The Sisters Repentia are definitely better if you know how to use them than most players know.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html

That unit costs 358 points. T3, footslogging, rerolling saves in CC only, no FNP, no nothing. 358 points. It's difficult to kill in close combat and will likely smush anything it touches, but for 358pts it damn well better.

I mean, I guess it's the best Repentia noob-hammer you could build entirely from the Sisters Codex, but why would you want such a unit?

It helped me go 5-0 at my last large event, for one, and for two its incredibly effective. They dont have to footslog actually, they can take Rhinos. It has FnP, sop I can see you maybe didnt read the article.

and 358 (your number seems inflated so I assume you are including the completely detachable characetrs that would have been advisable anyways)) is next to nothing in comparison to most death stars and in fact a kit'd out Purifier squad is 300+, as is a Wraith Knight so in the grand scheme, I'm not so sure 358 (your number) is much to pay for the production.

But thats the discussion we're having right? Your reaction is proof of my point. It is a unit that is QUITE powerful that most people don't beleive in or take much at all.

So in a way, I am happy you said this. =)

 Xenomancers wrote:

you went undefeated putting an exensive as balls assault unit in a rhino? That just dont make sense. Turn 3 assault at best - and the rhino gonna be destroyed on t1. Me fails to see this as viable.

 Jancoran wrote:
Your reaction is proof of my point. It is a unit that is QUITE powerful that most people don't beleive in or take much at all.

 Jancoran wrote:
Most people have played so few games against Sisters of Battle and even less of those very few have played against one wielding this unit.

First, I would steer away from arguing with good results. Of all the things that strip away an argument, none does it more quickly than actually demonstrating that it works in tournaments.

Second, the HQ isnt "part of the unit". You would already have one.

 BBAP wrote:

It seems reasonable to me that the ICs are included in the point cost calculation.

 BBAP wrote:


The fact you went 5-0 with it in your army list doesn't change that.

.

 BBAP wrote:

I remember back in 5th Edition people said that about Orks because they were winning GTs left right and centre.

 BBAP wrote:

tl;dr - The Repentia aren't OP. They're a noobhammer.

 Jancoran wrote:
The unit is the Sisters Repentia. The way I use them is with the help of characters I would take anyways. thus you are inflating it.

It actually does.

We uh...never allowed that in our groups. never saw orks dominate. So...

i think they just acted like you. They ignored it until it was too late. or they paid too much attention and ignored the rest of the army.

 BBAP wrote:


Right, but Sisters don't get a Convocation-style "buy one get them all free" deal on their HQs and wargear, so every point you spend over and above the basic Canoness is one less point you can spend on your army. The figure is not inflated. You are removing units from your army to include this noobhammer. At 358pts, the cost for the entry-level footslogging noobhammer, you're removing two squads of dual-special weapon Battle Sisters in Immolators.
.

 BBAP wrote:



I notice no information about this tournament has been forthcoming either. That's one of the usual steps in this sad cha-cha-cha. Obviously it'd be bad form to just take your word for it so I'm not going to do that - is there any independent source of information about this hyper-competitive tournament you walked over with the mighty bolter-bouncing Repentia of Doom? What army lists you were up against, that kind of thing?
.

 Jancoran wrote:
I wanted to post a follow up to my comments on the Sisters Repentia.

I played 8 games of Warhammer this weekend in two different tournament using the list I posted before. For reference and to save you scrolling, I'm posting it below.

Vs. Bullyboyz Formation list:
Very well painted. He was a trukk army with trukks filled with Meganobz and his commander trucking in a Battle Wagon with normal Nobz, plus a bunch of boyz on foot. The game was Kill Points, so he was very much favored in this one, as my army has about 21 and he had 13 or something. He shoved himself up my nose Ork Style and I let him have a mulligan when he forgot to move all his trucks in the shooting phase flat out. He swing ten of his meganobz to my right flank and started smashing on Rhinos I had placed there midfield on round 2. My Sisters Repentia and Assassins combined to butcher the first unit of Meganobz. His second unit of them took exception and crashed into the Sisters Repentia to rob them of their charge attacks and hopefully stomp them out, and he hit me plenty of times. The setup on my unit allowed me to weather it. I then spent his turn and my next killing them all. The left flank was under attack by his bikers and they can really shoot, killing a rhino on the come and then because I failed to kill them all, his Klaw got another one. That flank was kind of me pushing everything over there and waiting for his big ork blob to come on and when they did, they actually shot me pretty good, but then...the flames came and ended all that. I washed away the orks that showed up after their initial shock and awe attack. Final score was 12-7 Adepta Sororitas.

Vs. Lamenters Chapter w/ Forge World Land Raider and Death Company Deathstar w/ Characters
Mission was to control at least two objectives for 1 point and to control MORE than the opponet for an additional +1 or +2 depending on how many.

The general and I have known each other for quite a while but never played so it was GREAT to get to play him finally. He's won best painted at this tournament 3 straight years and he's quite a good fellow. This time he brought his Lamenters, the Successor Chapter, and he loaded a ton of Death Company, his Libby, his Commissar and Corbulo all into some kind of crazy Forge World Land Raider that has serious punch. His IG melta vets came in via pods (yes they are still allowing that until the FAQ's and such are approved) while scouts held the Rearguard and his Hydra prepared to scan the skies for trouble. Mission? roll forward and crush the enemy to take their things. he had two objectives in his deployment zone and he was camped on them. I had both of mine midfield and needed to go get them. Into the maw of madness we go.
As I was going first, i scouted up and stayed i nthe Rhinos, taking a hull Point off the big Land Raider but that was okay. My Sisters Repentia and Assassisn shifted around and waited for the inevitable Drop Pod landings while the Sisters of Battle jetter to midfield to get closer to them thar objective points.
His first drop went off perfectly and he attempted to assassinate the Exorcist but missed with all three attempts. While it was no guarantee that he was going to kill it anyways, that was kind of hard medicine to take. To make matters worse, his Land Raider rumbled forward and immobilized itself on terrain, grinding to a halt where it had started. Fortunately for him, I had come way forward. So he hopped out and started jetting towards my Dominion Rhinos intent on their destruction. They did in fact tear one into smithereens in melee making a pretty good charge. so he got First Strike at least. what was a real downer was the explosion caught a ton of his guys and he actually lost 5 of them! geeeeeez. It was maybe the worst first round ever?
In round two I got my retributors out who had swung out to the left flank at full speed, and between them and my dominions they did a ton of wounds but his commissatr of all things took like 18 wounds before dying! Good LORD that guy was a champ. That made up for a LOT the previous round but it still meant his unit was dwindling very quickly. I also shoved my assassins into his veterans and they got a bit lucky, surviving it and even getting away! More good rolls for him so his second round went about as well as it ever was going to go. The Sisters Repentia blew the Drop pod up and sent it to the great Scrap heap in the sky. the Lamenter responded by nuking more transports nad more of my dominion, but I made him go through those Rhinos first. I was not going to give ground on that objective any faster than i needed to.
Round three was the end of all but his Librarian and a couple of Death Company. Corbulo took ti to the face from an Exorcist and the Retributors actually did their job this time as did the remaining Dominion etc... Long story short his Librarian took soooooo many saves and made them that it was incredible but he protected his men from harm. My Assassins and Sisters Repentia chased after the fleeing Guardsmen while this was going on. His onslaught continued and he smacked into more Dominions and killed more tanks with that LandRaider of his. that thing hits hard. Anyways, the second pod came in and put two hull points on the Sisters of Battle Rhino I had far to the right on an objective and that was not what he wanted either.

The rest of the game was pretty much just Assassins chasing across the table and eventually (like i mean waaaay eventually) getting to his backfield and slaughtering the scouts by the Hydra..

In the end the game was much closer than the story suggests. We both held two objectives for most of the game and it was only at the end that I broke the gridlock points wise because he kept me from reaching his Objective the Land Raider was on and the other took me all game to get to with Assassins. Still, final score was 8-3. More importantly, he and i finally got a game in.

[b]Vs. Vs. Nurgle Chaos Marines with dual Princes[/b]
I have no anti-Air, it was hammer and Anvil and his Typhus and Terminator buddies went into deep strike. The idea was to bring up the Princes and the troops, sit on objectives and keep me pinned i nmy backfield to the extent that he could. he had a laspredator to shoot at my tanks which took me all game to kill (though cover was on my side so that was a saving grace).

His Nurgle Marines were incredibly resilient and took shooting like champs. It took me a long time to whittle them given that he used his rhinos like I do, to shield his men from harm and give them a home to hide in and plasma things to death. His Cultists were safely waaaaay far away from me and standing on an obIective doing their thing. I do not think he was ready for how good the Sisters Repentia were though. His Terminators swung first and I think with that many attacks and str and their FnP and all that jazz, he was confident he could end them. he could not and we ate him and all his friends as well as the Daemon Prince which alighted to the ground eventually to engage me. The Daemon Prince took two wounds from the Retributors as he killed them which was kinda cool and then it turned to kill more things before finally being stopped. My favorite moment was a brilliant move where i kind of managed to get all my rhinos JUST SO, and my Dominion JUST SO and then instead of shooting his Rhino, I charged it and killed the Rhino with grenades. the reason was because i needed to take an objective and the only possible way was not to shoot the rhino because if i did, it might explode and leave them sitting on it. But if i assaulted it, it would just force them in the only direction they could go which was away from the objective. It was a calculated risk since grenades arent nearly as sure as Meltas but it was the situation and I went for it and got it! In the end, he ended the game with exactly ONE Nurgle Marine on the table, and nothing else.

Vs. tool'd up Forge World Zombie Nurgle list using a Sicarian Tank, Forge World Cannons, HQ's and stuff

This was a tough game. the list had a Forge World Character and Forge World rule zombies with 4+ fnp and fearless and so on. He pushes the zombies outto keep you from ever getting close to his firing line which contained IMPRESSIVE STR 9 AP 1 TWIN LINKED lascannons (essentially) and then the Sicarian Tank which was insanely good at its job. He had a little extra zombie action to mill around the firing line and protect it as well. His force included a Plague Drone, which I am surprised I don't see more of and his commander in one Rhino with Plague Marines while his other character on bike accompanies the Spawn the streak forward and smash things. His 3 Obliterators were deep striking. I lost tank after tank. I couldn't make the saves when I even got them (mostly just Shield of Faith Saves since the Sicarian tank ignores cover). he lost a small melta Raptor squad jumping into my corner with no room for error and the Obliterators did the same albeit he didnt lose them and they came back to wreak havoc as usual. My defense was a good offense. I pushed the field HARD and made movement my priority.

the mission was 5 relics, the one on the middle and one in the middle of every sector. Table Quarters deployment (cool).

so we both started on one and were fighting over the other three. I decided to go for broke and reserved a lot in order not to lose tanks AS quickly and so i seized three of the objectives by turn two. His Spawnstar came to have a little say about that and assaulted my Sisters Repentia in the far corner after wrecking their rhino with his "Lascannons". this was a fatal error as he came to learn. In two rounds of combat there were no more spawn nor his character left. Here again he wanted the weight and superior initiative of his attacks to waste me. Again the build i described earlier paid off and I wrecked him. that objectives was safe for the rest of the game. I ran the Sisters repentia forthe rets of the game behind a Dominion Rhino, never getting them out because I needed the shielding and eventually made it to near the center where his Zombies had taken the objective. Took all my shooting to make them drop it and then we looked at the charge and it was like 12" to get the Repentia Sisters in there. I rolled Box cars. Wow. We both couldnt even beleive it because we spent a good five minutes bs'ing about how impossible it was and how he had seen it before and i was like "I dunno..." and then he's like "Well I have no overwatch" and so I went for it. Bayam. So those zombies are not zombies anymore. This in turn placed me next to his warlord as well and by this point he had seen enough ofthat unit and jumped in a rhino to avoid giving up the Warlord.

Final score was 14-2 Adepta Sororitas.

Vs. Dark Eldar venom spam with Eldar biker allies and Warp Spiders

Intense game . We were doing 3 hour rounds and we used literally every second to finish that game.

It was the Scouring but the twist was that Objectives explode on a 4+ when a unit moves within 3". He had a very well equipped force to deal with mine. Warwalkers to outflank (lances), Warp Spiders, venom spam, and of course Eldar allies for Scatterbike support and Objective stealing goodness and of course the Autarch. His beastpack was well built, and the Autarch on bike did a lot to bolster them. His Haywire Scourges were of course perfect for sniping out Exorcists. He had all the tools he needed there.

I chose to let him go first which threw him, but I REALLY needed to know where he was going to put everything. He ended up deciding to Deep Strike the Warp Spiders, outflank the War Walkers (which I expected) and to leave his Grotesque bomb with Webway portal in Deep Strike as well. Maximum flexibility to go after the objectives once they were revealed.

I decided to reserve everything except for the Sisters Repentia Squad, the Assassins and the two Exorcists.

His Talos and bikes all shot up the field, while hugging cover and his Scourges moved around the cvorner to make their shots. The shield of Faith saved my exorcist but ti took a hull point. His Scatterbikes hit the Rhino with the Repentia in it and stripped two points despite excellent cover and Night Fighting. Otherwise it was mostly movement and jockying for shots as i had given very little to him in that regard. My first priority was killing Scourges, so i shot and killed 4 with Exorcists and sent them running and they never regrouped. Repentias got out. I moved the Assassins around and made a mistake doing it which left a gap for him, which he did not miss. On his second turn he exploited it killing the two Crusaders attached to the unit, he killed the Repentia rhino as expected with his Stinger Pods on his Talos as it approached again. His War Walkers outflanked on me and shot at my Exorcists but they survived thanks to cover. His Spiders dropped in and put hull points on my Assassin Rhino. His Reaver bikes moved forward and got blown up by the sabotaged Objective and fled the rest of the game off the board. WOWA. He never saw that one coming but we BOTH got more careful about those things at that point. His only unit that didn't come in was a unit of Kabailites and his Grotesque bomb.

Reserves went poorly and i basically only got two units of Dominion in. The Assassins attacked the beastpack and it held, but would break in the bnext turn. Dominion attacked his War walkers and proceeded to kill one and put a hull point on each of the other two. Not good. His windshield save was on point all game and I never killed either of those things all game long. Thats how that went.

The Exorcists fired down on the Warp Spiders, causing them to move towards the Exorcists with their flicker jump, and away from my assassins who were down to like three dudes thanks to my positioning error. That made it a 9 inch charge. they made it and smashed up the Warp Spiders, leaving only two alive, who they then improbably failed to catch. Grrr. So they went a runnin and I had two Deathcult assassins left. The Sisters Repentia moved up and prepared to meet the Talos head on next turn if they could survive the enenmy shooting.

On his turn 3 he shot the crap out of my Canoness and her unit. Couldnt make a save no matter how hard we tried and his dice were near perfect. The Eldar eneded up slaughtering them all except my Warlord and one of the Sisters Repentia. Ouch. So much for that plan, and that was the only game where they never got to perform something cool. every other game they were MVP's. The Talos which moved forward, had nothing to charge so it just kinda stood there. His Warp Spiders kept running, but his WarWalkers smashed up another rhino and then got the Dominion inside charged by his Wyches from a Venom (that combat lasted to the end of the game but stopped me from shooting with them). His shooting otherwise was to rhinos and largely he therefore had nothing to do.

My reserves came in, but this time I only got the last Cominion squad and the Sisters of Battle. So i sent the Sisters to take over where the Sisters Repentia had been on the 2 point objective and had the Sister Repentia back up intio the cover and Uriah got into the Rhino with the Sisters. The Dominion came in to the enemy backfield to linebreak and start shooting war walkers. which bounced every single shot. Again. windshiled Saves. Gotta love it. The other Dominion tried again but...no. wow. windshild Saves everywhere! Not a single one got through. so....

turn 4 in came the Grotesquebomb. they annihilated the Dominion that were closest to my 3 point objective and that putthem right there to multi-charge the Exorcists out of existence the next round etc... i had to stop them. His Scatter bikes came up and killed my sisters of Battle Rhino on the other three point objective to my left where the Repentia sister was cowering in the shadows after their abject failure. The venoms shot up anything not in a rhino which was my assassins and i think they killed the other Dominion squad that was line breaking so i was down to just their rhino back there.

On my four i pushed my rhino up onto his backfield 2 point objective. Retributors came on and baked the insides of the Grotesque Raider, then blew the Raider up with Storm Bolters and they actually failed their morale and ran. No impending assaults which was good because even though I hit a lot with the Flamers, his FnP was insanely good and so it took all the shooting I had just to force that.. The sisters of Battle who came on from reserve in the center took the 2 point objective and shot up the Mandrakes that had been skulking among obscuring terrain for some time and i really had no way to get to them until then.

The 5th round he had to make his move and so he brought everything up and prepared to end me. He auto-regrouped the Grotesques, but they were nowhere near anything they could affect. The Mandrakes shot at the rhino just because and Jetbikes came up to fire but for once i didnt take it entirely in the shorts.

On my turn, I killed all six Scatter Bikes with fire from Exorcists and mostly Bolters and Storm Bolters. Uriah took two out on his own with a shotgun from 20" away. Hilarious. I tank shocked the Mandrakes but they held, and continuedtrying to hide my sisters of battle in their cubby hole. the objective didnt explode which was nice.

This left him with two venoms to move to objectives and a couple War walkers to try and save the day plus a single WarpSpider (he lost one to flicker jumping). His Mandrakes were there too but really in no position to help. So in the fastest round ever of 40K he flew to the objectives he needed to in order to hold them and killed the Rhino that was trying to take his 2 pointer in the backfield. That was all he could do.
final score 16-12 (because of Fast Attack kills he racked up quite a few points that way)

Vs. 5 Flyrant list with special pinpoint deep strike Formation using Lictors and Mucolid spores

Loved this list. shows that Tyranids are alive and well. this game is easily summarized. i backed away, he came at me and repeat only he dropped his pinpoint Lictor drops right in there and Mucolid spores gummed things up too so i spent a lot of time killing them before they could charge me but that meant his Flyrants were Psykering and running free, shooting me to death. I however did have superior position from an objective standpoint and eventually i got him out of good position because of his flying. I just needed his Warlord to die and I would win 7-6. I wounded his warlord three times in round one, and needed just one more wound I got a hit on him with no cover saves with meltas in rounds 3, 4 and 5. All three times, i rolled a 1 to wound. it made an enormous difference. Ended up losing 10-1 but even in the last round had he failed it, i win. So i felt like ultimately it was just "one of those games". Great game, and very skilled opponent. He has done very well at other tournaments that i have seen him in more locally so i know what he can do and it was good to face that kind of competitor.

Vs. Heavily Forge World special Terminator list with Storm Raven and Land Raider

nearly 100% Forge World goodness. He had a Contemptor and al kinds of fun stuff. he essentially only deployed 1 Land Raider and his thing that does Orbital blasts which is some kind of rhino chassis thing. I dunno frankly what it was. Everything else was in a Raven or dropping in.

His Contemptor got eaten after showing up to kill Exorcists, by Sisters Repentia. His land Raider was killed turn one by Scouting Dominions, and the rest of his units were chewed up over time by shooting. He rolled the worlds largest quantity of 1's, ever. i dont think it would have made a difference in this game, honestly because although I caught him flat footed by the Scouting Dominion, the real issue was that i just as easily could have waited for him to come to me and done the same thing. the sisters Repentia ate everything anywhere remotely close to them and the Exorcists threw almost no shots all game (it was as bad as his saves). I genuinely felt for the guy because i am not really certain there was ever a way for him to win that missions with what he was bringing. His whole command squad even managed to jump from the Storm Raven and crash into some stuff, destroying it and then... well... Uriah and his Repentias just worked him.

Vs. Battle Company with Grav spam
well... We had almost identical forces as far as mackeup goes: basically a lot of dudes in boxes. His boxes were free, his statline was better, his Grav Weapons were ideal for the task (two hits and the box dies. Dumb). He brought three Drop pods to the party just to keep you away from his tanks. he went first so there was that as well. Nowhere to hide, null deployment wasn't really an option in that scenario and yeah.
Despite this adversity... I did actually have a chance to win. he droppe in round one and obliterated most of the boxes i had to hide behind and after several rules arguments that he lost (as if bringing that list wasn't unfriendly enough?) we got around to my turn. I annihilated his drop units and showed him what Sisters Repentia do. this kind of weent on for some turns and my reserves seemed not to want to come in. Finally they did and i started hitting back. Way on my right flank, i smashed up a rhino there and sort of secured the objective on my far right from getting taken. and then I kept smashing with Dominion to keep the second one over there from him. So far so good. My dominions showed up finally in turn four way behind him, onto another objecitve andI was going second so he had to now mosey over. So despite the ridiculous mismatch, I had the chance to control three fo the four objectives in the last round! I just needed to smash up his vehicle without exploding it which would ensure the far one and kill a rhino and its guys in the near one. i did everything I needed to do win except i overdid it with the meltas and ended up exploding instead of wrecking the one on the far objective. That essentially gave him the game. but it was close and i think he was surprised that there was ANY path to victory for me at the end, Lol. He apologized afterwards for being a jerk but the game certainly was a tense affair and frankly when you sling that kinda army onto a table, a little magnanimity isn't too much to ask for i think. Maybe that's just me.

Anywho, all in all excellent. I felt like the one that got away was the Tyranid one and i really only felt outclassed in the battle Company fight.

Throughout all these games, the one commonality is: Sisters Repentia really are great performers for me.


Ordo Demry

: Combined Arms Detachment (Primary Detachment) (71#, 1999 pts)

6 Retributor Squad(Simulacrum Imperialis + Heavy Flamer x4)
1 Veteran Retributor Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Flamer x1)
1 Rhino(Dozer Blade)

1 Exorcist

1 Exorcist

4 Battle Sister Squad (Flamer + Flamer)
1 Sister Superior, (Melta Bombs)
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

4 Battle Sister Squad (Flamer + Flamer)
1 Sister Superior, (Melta Bombs)
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

7 Repentia Squad
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

1 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave
2 Crusader, 8 Death Cult Assassin
1 Rhino (Hunter-killer Missile)

1 Uriah Jacobus

1 Canoness (Combi-Flamer x1+ Melta Bombs+ Rosarius, 1 Mantle of Ophelia)

1 Ministorum Priest (Melta Bombs, 1 Litanies of Faith)

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Laud Hailer)

7 Dominion Squad (Simulacrum Imperialis + Meltagun x4)
1 Veteran Dominion Superior (Melta Bombs + Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino

 CrownAxe wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
That's what I'm looking at. Nothing in any of those to suggest the permission for non-Tyranid, non-GK psykers to use Malefic powers has changed from the BRB. That's what you need to show me.

Except they do, The Daemon, CSM, and AM ones do state that they have access to daemonology powers

 AnomanderRake wrote:



What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

 Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol

 AnomanderRake wrote:

You didn't give them anything that makes them anything other than T3/6++ against shooting attacks. or lets them get to combat without standing in the open to be shot for a turn. A dedicated melee unit that loses more than one model per two bolter hits on average is very difficult to call 'OP'.
.

 Jancoran wrote:
I laughed a little bit when I saw this. You are...again... trying to say that the HQ's wouldn't already be in the force. That is simply not true. So your statement isn't true. Moving on.

thats easy to answer. I did a battle report on this. Ill find it for you.

 Jancoran wrote:
I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing?

 Jancoran wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

You didn't give them anything that makes them anything other than T3/6++ against shooting attacks. or lets them get to combat without standing in the open to be shot for a turn. A dedicated melee unit that loses more than one model per two bolter hits on average is very difficult to call 'OP'.
.

I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing? If the answer is no and then yes in that order, then you have a damn fine unit. Any unit that needs a transport isnt planning on "sitting in the open" for a round if they can help it. I'm pretty sure I will respect my opponents savvy more than that.

Perfect matchups? No. The Bullyboyz was a good matchup but the others? No better or worse than most. Eldar/Dark Eldar was super hard. Lamerters had a very good deathstar to match my own. it was HOW we used them that differed, not the matchup. I just played smart and didn't run up to gunlines, as you seem to think we will (well to be fair I did once and paid for it but that was mostly to draw fire and God himself was rolling the dice for my opponent on that round). There's a sea of rhinos to hide behind and a sea of Dominion for the opponent to worry about before they go worrying about "little old weak Sisters Repentia". Then theres the Assassins... and the Heavy Flamers... The exorcist... So hard to choose.

Anywho, I am fine with the underestimation. That very underestimation was the thing the thread is about. So hey. I've beaten the dead horse enough.

 Jancoran wrote:
I am lost on this comment. Did you not read the article? They have 5+ invuls not 6. 3+ FnP twice per game with Uriah. Re-rolling everything under the sun. Armourbane. I mean... You want more? Lol.

All truly great units are gauged by two things: does it sting real bad if you lose them... and do they wreck face on a serious level when allowed to do their thing? If the answer is no and then yes in that order, then you have a damn fine unit. Any unit that needs a transport isnt planning on "sitting in the open" for a round if they can help it. I'm pretty sure I will respect my opponents savvy more than that.

Perfect matchups? No. The Bullyboyz was a good matchup but the others? No better or worse than most. Eldar/Dark Eldar was super hard. Lamerters had a very good deathstar to match my own. it was HOW we used them that differed, not the matchup. I just played smart and didn't run up to gunlines, as you seem to think we will (well to be fair I did once and paid for it but that was mostly to draw fire and God himself was rolling the dice for my opponent on that round). There's a sea of rhinos to hide behind and a sea of Dominion for the opponent to worry about before they go worrying about "little old weak Sisters Repentia". Then theres the Assassins... and the Heavy Flamers... The exorcist... So hard to choose.

Anywho, I am fine with the underestimation. That very underestimation was the thing the thread is about. So hey. I've beaten the dead horse enough.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In a similar vein I don't know if this is just because nobody's noticed it yet, but the Warpflame Host and the Locus of Conjuration lets you put out a silly quantity of autocannon shots. It's not cheap (three twenty-man Pink Horror blobs for durability and psychic dice, six Exalted Flamers for massive gunfire, and an ML3 Locus of Conjuration Herald comes to 960pts) but you get 6d3 S10/AP2 shots or six S6/AP3 Torrent flamers from the Exalted Flamers and potentially 12d6 S7/AP4 shots from castings of Flickering Fire in the psychic phase.

Most of the rest of the Tzeentchian offensive powers become terrifying with +2S from that formation. Bolt of Change is a Strength 6+d6/AP2 beam, Warpflare is a Strength d6+2/AP4 Nova dealing 2d6 hits...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd always assumed Smashf***er Prime was the Biker Chapter Master build, but I'm going to have to go take a look at whether the reroll-1s 3++ is worth losing a Wound, an Attack, and T5.

(He is also 230pts (CM (130) + Bike (35) + Gorgon's Chain (45) + Artificer Armour (20)) before buying him a melee weapon, but he does have four Attacks on profile, a pistol, Jink, and the ability to go a lot faster)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Repentia are a good unit because they perform very well under the right circumstances, against the right targets, and with the right support. Point them at a unit that doesn't have great volume of attacks at Initiative, get them into melee, and they'll blend a lot of targets.

Wraithknights are 'overpowered'

Imagine, for a moment, ten Repentia hop out of their Rhino 2" away from a naked Tactical Squad...

 Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol. Again: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:



What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

Indeed.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well the big thing is bike smashf*cker only has a 6+ FNP, Smashf*cker prime gets a 4+

 BBAP wrote:

Imagine, for a moment, ten Repentia hop out of their Rhino 2" away from a naked Tactical Squad...

Don't math-hammer 1v1 fights with ten-man boltgun Tactical Squads. No unit in the game is ever going to be in that position. If you want to math-hammer, make it relevant to how a unit would perform on the tabletop. See how long the Canoness can tank hits from a single Chimera with her non-rerollable 3+ save and no FNP. Better yet, evaluate the outcome of Uriah's Noobhammer attacking a vehicle in close combat - and before you draw any conclusions from this calculation, remember they only get FNP(3) in two assault phases out of the entire game.

 BBAP wrote:


What did I just say? Independent source of information. It's nothing personal,

More lies of omission. They get a 3+ FNP for two assault phases (NB: not turns) r.

 BBAP wrote:


Repentia, on the other hand, move 6+12" per turn, can't do anything outside of CC, are Guardsmen against shooting, and suck up 293pts you could be spending elsewhere. They don't qualify for the thread because they're a noobhammer.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In a similar vein I don't know if this is just because nobody's noticed it yet, but the Warpflame Host and the Locus of Conjuration lets you put out a silly quantity of autocannon shots. It's not cheap (three twenty-man Pink Horror blobs for durability and psychic dice, six Exalted Flamers for massive gunfire, and an ML3 Locus of Conjuration Herald comes to 960pts) but you get 6d3 S10/AP2 shots or six S6/AP3 Torrent flamers from the Exalted Flamers and potentially 12d6 S7/AP4 shots from castings of Flickering Fire in the psychic phase.

Most of the rest of the Tzeentchian offensive powers become terrifying with +2S from that formation. Bolt of Change is a Strength 6+d6/AP2 beam, Warpflare is a Strength d6+2/AP4 Nova dealing 2d6 hits...

What you are describing is probably the strongest formation in the game at present. You are right though - people have yet to figure this out.

 curran12 wrote:
I've noticed that many people underestimate the cheap durability of a Canoness.

For about 130-150 points and a priest in her unit, I have 3+/4++ re-rollable, with EW on top. More than capable of tanking even the nastiest beatsticks for awhile.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
They don't need more buffs than I gave them. Beleive that. Lol. Again: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/08/unlocking-sisters-repentia.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:



What powers other Codexes state they have access to has nothing to do with what powers the Inquisition gets to use.

Indeed.

I love 40k unorthodoxy

That repentia unit is scary. I liked reading that piece about them, I had no idea about that combo before

 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ Narth-a-Narth.
4+ IH Chapter Tactics.
3+ for being near an IC.
2+ for Gorgon's Chain.

It's a 2+ on Smash, not a 3+. He's insanely durable unless you have Instant Death.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I was attempting to make a more general point about the problems with trying to deliver a fragile infantry assault unit without an Assault Vehicle transport, and a tangential point about the problem with Unwieldy on a 1W/T3 assault unit.

So the 300-ish point noobhammer unit will absolutely win a fight with a 370+pt Knight (assuming you somehow make it to combat), but most of them will be blown up doing so.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

So the 300-ish point noobhammer unit will absolutely win a fight with a 370+pt Knight (assuming you somehow make it to combat), but most of them will be blown up doing so.

 Perth wrote:
I'll nominate the humble Land Speeder Typhoon. 70 points nets you 2 S8 AP3 shots at 48" and 3 S5 AP4 shots at 36", all on a fast skimmer platform that needs to expose very little of itself to shoot, due to being able to fire out of either side of the TML, so it should basically always have a cover save and not need to jink. When taken as the fast choice in a Demi-Company not only is it one of the cheapest options (only beaten by other Land Speeders with lighter loadouts), but it gains ObSec as well. It's not overly tough, but has the range and speed to keep it safe from harm, throwing out the dakka all game. It's no Javelin (whoever wrote the updates for that was high), but still a bargain for 70 points.

For those of you that don't know, the Javelin Attack Speeder is the 30k version of the Typhoon, except the front AV is 11, the Typhoon Missile Launcher is Twin-Linked, it has Strafing Run and Outflank, and only costs 55 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
5+ Narth-a-Narth.
4+ IH Chapter Tactics.
3+ for being near an IC.
2+ for Gorgon's Chain.

It's a 2+ on Smash, not a 3+. He's insanely durable unless you have Instant Death.

 BBAP wrote:



Right - so the Repentia noobhammer has hammered a noob who charged his Imperial Knight into a unit full of ***Chainfists***. I mean... what else were you expecting? Did you imagine the result would be different? And you know that's the way it'd happen, don't you? The Knight would be charging the Repentia. It would never, ever be the other way around unless you double down on your noobhammering and add in a Stormraven or Land Raider.

Like I said, if you're going to math-hammer make it realistic and relevant. Unless you think charging a Knight into Infantry with Chainfists is a good idea, in which case... I dunno what to tell you. Pray you never play against Jancoran.

Now do the Rhino one I suggested earlier. Or the Chimera shooting one.

Martel732 wrote:
I feel like i have a lot of options vs repentia, even with ba.

Martel732 wrote:
It shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm more positive about taking on Repentia squads than scatterbikes.

I can't get away from the scatterbikes. I can't outshoot them. I can't catch them, even with BA.

Something like a heavy bolter attack bike squad is pretty nice against Repentia squads, but are t-totally useless vs scatbike

 Jancoran wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


What did I just say? Independent source of information. It's nothing personal,

More lies of omission. They get a 3+ FNP for two assault phases (NB: not turns) r.

Uh... i am pretty sure you are getting personal.

I also think no one needed it explained to them that we were talking about two combat phases.

perhaps you did.

So a melee unit is by your definition not allowed to be awesome then.

Setting conditions now are we?

Battle Companies are one of the best things in the game.

And he almost lost to me.

The Tyrant player should have lost.

But: dice. One die in particular. Needed a 2. Three rounds in a row. Didn't get it.

The wins can't all be against world beaters of course

and I don't think anyone has to in order to see the wreckage this unit causes.

That is independent of these list issues because lists werent the issue. codex's weren't the issue. Individual units was.

And as an individual unit, played the way I play it, it's exceptionally good.

 BBAP wrote:

Killing a Sicarian might qualify, if they'd done it from a standing start - but they didn't, did they? .

 BBAP wrote:



Maybe not, but it's always worth laying out specifics instead of making ambivalent statements.

Unless you're being mendacious in an attempt to make a point and the specifics would weaken your argument. In that case ambivalent statements are the way to go.
.

 BBAP wrote:



Not an Infantry one, for reasons I've already laid out, which you have not condescended to address.

 BBAP wrote:

Why, because everything is ObSec and has Grav? .

 BBAP wrote:


As an aside... remember when 5th Ed DEldar players took twelve Dark Lances and a bunch of other garbage in their armies, then blamed "bad dice" for the fact they were losing to mech Wolves? BBAP remembers.
.

 BBAP wrote:

I'm not feeling contravened by any of this.

Martel732 wrote:
Some assault units are awesome. This is empirically true. It's just that this Repentia unit is better than anything in my codex. Which makes me sad.

Martel732 wrote:
I still hate terminators, even in that formation. I really dislike it because it plays into BA problem #2, that of not being able to beat actual assault lists. Using that terminator formation is basically an auto-loss against Space Wolves, Demons, or a Sisters list like you fielded.

I'm not confident in its ability to simulate a Raptor Talon because terminators are so much more expensive and can engage fewer units as a result. In the best case, you kill three squads of three bikes and the rest get away scot free.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm confident when there's a reason to be confident. I can't beat the Repentia straight up, but maybe I can avoid them and wear them down with my own limited shooting.

There is no such hope against scatterbikes or Eldar in general.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm confident when there's a reason to be confident. I can't beat the Repentia straight up, but maybe I can avoid them and wear them down with my own limited shooting.

There is no such hope against scatterbikes or Eldar in general.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm typically against eight bike units. I'm not sure what they're cutting to have eight instead of five. It doesn't seem to matter vs BA. 8 X 3 X 4 = 96 shots. Just crazy time.

The bottom line is that there are just too many viable lists that don't care about deep strike assaulting terminators, which shows just how poorly BA fare at assault.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Interesting idea. Seems a really expensive "vehicle" but if it gets the job done... I'll look into this. I'll also need to look at whether the ITC is modifying those powers. But no, I had not looked into it because i do not play Space Marine armies as a rule. I have one. A large one actually. But i NEVER play it. Too many cool things outside of Mariens, not enough time.

I will ask my Space Marine friends to get me the source material on it.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Well you'd only be taking them in small units to tie up strategically important targets. And to score. It's highly affordable from that perspective and in those numbers, i can think of a ton of things that are worse. Like...a ton.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Well you'd only be taking them in small units to tie up strategically important targets. And to score. It's highly affordable from that perspective and in those numbers, i can think of a ton of things that are worse. Like...a ton.

It's still close to 700 pts for this formation. Terminators' overcostedness cripples this concept.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

 Jancoran wrote:
Entirely irrelervant to the point. Tyler himself would tell you i had him. dice. What can you do. Go ask him yourself.

I assume the credentials of some of my opponents assuages your doubts otherwise

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, and you lost all all but 2, and then proceed to lose combat next turn probably. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, and you lost all all but 2, and then proceed to lose combat next turn probably. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

Jacobus improves it to a 5+.

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, I always enjoy my Great Unclean One. Deepstriking in next to a a squad of Plaguebearers with a banner is sweet, plus at Mastery Level 3, Toughness 7 he's tough as nails. The only thing I've lost him to so far has been a Stomp from a Knight.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

 Jancoran wrote:


Thank you for the compliment. You like the blog eh?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

In tournamwent play, objectives are a thing. You cannot simply stay where you are and fire. I'm sorry but you just cant. the missions don't allow it. I understand that in THEORY, every single thing with stats can be destroyed. Of course it can. in practice, rounds 3-6 are going to be bloody and possibly sooner. I really cant imagine an enemy who has the luxury of standing where they are anf firing, and ignoring all the points im scoring. it just doesnt happen.

This goes back to the assertion that I am just going to go walk them in front of a firing line. No. I'm likely to be doing a lot of things to make it difficult. such as...killing the enemy with Heavy Flamers before I arrive or what have you. who knows. the Repentia arent the entire army. So.

And 6 is correct. its the drone that makes it better.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
2+1

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, I always enjoy my Great Unclean One. Deepstriking in next to a a squad of Plaguebearers with a banner is sweet, plus at Mastery Level 3, Toughness 7 he's tough as nails. The only thing I've lost him to so far has been a Stomp from a Knight.

I suspect a Librarian Dreadnaught could take him (Martel, take note. You have a powerful melee unit.)

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

If only.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

In tournamwent play, objectives are a thing. You cannot simply stay where you are and fire. I'm sorry but you just cant. the missions don't allow it. I understand that in THEORY, every single thing with stats can be destroyed. Of course it can. in practice, rounds 3-6 are going to be bloody and possibly sooner. I really cant imagine an enemy who has the luxury of standing where they are anf firing, and ignoring all the points im scoring. it just doesnt happen.

This goes back to the assertion that I am just going to go walk them in front of a firing line. No. I'm likely to be doing a lot of things to make it difficult. such as...killing the enemy with Heavy Flamers before I arrive or what have you. who knows. the Repentia arent the entire army. So.

And 6 is correct. its the drone that makes it better.

I didn't say they were standing still. They moved TOWARD you. This wasn't a multi turn slugfest between them, it was ONE turn of shooting after your rhino was wrecked/they jumped out, and in a best case scenario in YOUR favor. But if we bring in the rest of the army, supporting fire (during overwatch) wipes up the unit. And once their Rhino is dead, what ARE they going to do? Foot slog it across the board? Try and run from cover to cover? Either way they're moving slower and are MUCH easier to kill now.

Want a realistic scenario? We both advance towards an objective, broadside squad fires and murders your rhino, reps pop out behind it, move and run a total of 12", then proceed to get shot to bits by said fire warriors squad.
As for anything getting close, Riptides/Interceptor takes care of those fairly easily.

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
2+1

Dem 5th-ed feels. They're coming back again.

 BBAP wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

It's not a question of conformity;

 BBAP wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

If only.

Block button's right there, Mr Math-hammer. I think blocks are recpirocal, so if you block me I don't have to read any more of your exciting duels against boltgun Tactical Squads. Win-win.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Interesting idea. Seems a really expensive "vehicle" but if it gets the job done... I'll look into this. I'll also need to look at whether the ITC is modifying those powers. But no, I had not looked into it because i do not play Space Marine armies as a rule. I have one. A large one actually. But i NEVER play it. Too many cool things outside of Mariens, not enough time.

I will ask my Space Marine friends to get me the source material on it.

This would be a hilarious and wonky thing to try to do; the issue with psychic buffs and Sisters normally is that joining a Librarian to the unit turns off their Acts of Faith, so you'd need to get the Librarian into combat and use Electrodisplacement to get him out and tag the Repentia in. I don't know what your Marine army is but I'd suggest taking a small White Scars CAD rather than using the Librarius formation so you've got the mobility and ablative wounds to get the Librarians into the fight before swapping them out.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Out of curiosity, have any Land Raider variants made an appearance in this thread?

 Wolfblade wrote:

I didn't say they were standing still. They moved TOWARD you. This wasn't a multi turn slugfest between them, it was ONE turn of shooting after your rhino was wrecked/they jumped out, and in a best case scenario in YOUR favor. But if we bring in the rest of the army, supporting fire (during overwatch) wipes up the unit. And once their Rhino is dead, what ARE they going to do? Foot slog it across the board? Try and run from cover to cover? Either way they're moving slower and are MUCH easier to kill now.

Want a realistic scenario? We both advance towards an objective, broadside squad fires and murders your rhino, reps pop out behind it, move and run a total of 12", then proceed to get shot to bits by said fire warriors squad.
As for anything getting close, Riptides/Interceptor takes care of those fairly easily.

 Jancoran wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Out of curiosity, have any Land Raider variants made an appearance in this thread?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I felt there was more viability to them than many gave them credit for, even if they were forced to take increasingly extreme compromises to squeeze in as much antitank as they could.

Other than that, my view is that OP is pretty much about finding a good "kill/cost" ratio, accounting for range/mobility/survivability of course (yes, a Vindicator is a cheap S10 pieplate. How often does it work?), and there are very few units in 40k we don't already know about that do that.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

It's not a question of conformity;

Yes. Yes it is. Did you miss the thread title? That's entirely the point of this thread.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

An OP unit does not require everything going in their favor to be good.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

Even though I see it rarely, I'm acutely aware of the Stormsword. However, it sucks against MCs, especially FMCs. This is a cardinal sin of 7th ed. There's just cheaper way to deal with infantry.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

BBAP wrote:I dabbled in Orks rather than "played" them so I might be missing something, but from where I was sitting (across the table from Ork armies) it looked to me like the Ork Codex was all about quantity rather than quality. The book wasn't costed for balanced armies - you **could** build one, but it required quantity to be sacrificed and the quality you got in exchange wasn't fantastic. Plus most of their anti-tank seemed to involve close combat and Deffrollaz, so you could shut down 60% of it by blowing up the Trukks, another 20% by sacrificing a couple of your hulls to slow down the Boyz and Deffrollaz, and the last 20% (Lootaz, Kannons, KMB Kans) would often sabotage itself due to low BS. The rest of the lists you built from the book were either fluffy armies or noobhammers.

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Kans had bad BS, but they kept firing on the move, and could lock down an area, and were cheap for their melee prowess.

Martel732 wrote:
"Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players"

That doesn't help the rest of us. Making the Stormsword decided NOT OP.

Invis + anything dangerous = automatically OP. Because invis. This is trivially true.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

What kind of army are you running that you can't spare a few Meltaguns to strip wounds off a Wraithknight every turn without screwing yourself over? They're also at a serious disadvantage in combat against Fearless infantry with 10 models or more; they'll get out of combat on their own eventually, but not before it's cost them a turn of shooting and moving.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Kans had bad BS, but they kept firing on the move, and could lock down an area, and were cheap for their melee prowess.

They were alright, but they suffered the same issue any vehicle had; Meltaguns released their control over an area real quick, and everyone had lots of those everywhere.

Martel732 wrote:
That's why I said almost.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

What kind of army are you running that you can't spare a few Meltaguns to strip wounds off a Wraithknight every turn without screwing yourself over? They're also at a serious disadvantage in combat against Fearless infantry with 10 models or more; they'll get out of combat on their own eventually, but not before it's cost them a turn of shooting and moving.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's why I said almost.

It does actually give rise to a semi-strong proof of OPness. If you've got a unit that can cost-effectively and/or trivially get rid of a unit that's already OP it's likely to be OP itself.

Martel732 wrote:
"Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players"

That doesn't help the rest of us. Making the Stormsword decidedly NOT OP.

Invis + anything dangerous = automatically OP. Because invis. This is trivially true.

 BBAP wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

This is all true - but again, it's math-hammer. This scenario might not occur on the board, and even if it did I don't think "making your points back" is a valid concept.

An example to try and explain why I feel this way. My GSC have 3 ML2 Patriarchs. That's nearly 400 points wrapped up in three T5 4+ models. Last game I played, they killed nothing. Not a thing. Didn't even make a single charge the whole game. They didn't "make their points back", so they must suck, right?

Well no. One of them kept a unit of Neophytes fighting a deathstar for two turns and forced it to HnR into a bunch of Morphs, whereas the other two sat in corners, preventing broken units running off the table and providing dice to Summon more Morphs and deny Lightning Arc repeatedly. For reference, Lightning Arc murders my army because they're a bunch of T3 5+ dudes who struggle to avoid being within 6" of one another because they're Infantry and need to support each others' assaults. Kind of like how Repentia can't avoid being within 6" of Dominions or their transports if you're using the one to shield the other, but I digress.

Another example - if Father Uriah's Hammer of Noobs charges a Knight, or a Stormsurge, or whatever, it **will** kill them, and in doing so it's made back its points. Must be OP, right?

Well no. The thing is, this unit will never, ever, ever in a million years reach a Knight or Stormsurge that the opponent doesn't feed it. It will never charge **anything** the opponent doesn't leave lying around for it. It is a Fleet Infantry unit, with the inherent lack of mobility that designation brings.

It can't charge things I don't want it to. Can't do it. "But but but Rhino..." - doesn't matter. Can't do it. Can't move more than 6" a turn and assault, can't jump over obstacles during any movement, can't ignore terrain - can't do it. You simply cannot get around that lack of mobility no matter how hardy they are in CC, how much stupid wargear you add, how many models you add - you can't do it.. "But muh Repentia killed [xyz] in {game]!" - did the opponent give a gak if he lost [xyz]? If "yes", then your opponent failed by feeding it to the Repentia. If "no", then you were permitted to kill something your opponent considered irrelevant enough to sacrifice. That's not a useful contribution.

***That's*** why this unit is a noobhammer. Your opponent has to actively gift it with opportunities in order for it to affect the game, and if he doesn't it's easy enough to deal with because it's Chainfist Guardsmen.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

An OP unit does not require everything going in their favor to be good.

 BBAP wrote:


The title of this thread is "What is an op unit in your codex that nobody knows is op?"

Unless we're interpreting "OP" as "whatever gak-ass unit you whup noobs with" then there are objective answers to that question against which people's opinions can be weighed. When said opinions turn out to be stupid with respect to reality, it's fine to say that. When someone disagrees, it's fine to ask for evidence, and when the provided evidence is deficient it's okay to say that too.

Frankly I think your problem is less about me pushing conformity, more that someone "insulted" your little internet-friend by questioning his opinion on a particular unit. Don't do that. Your little friend isn't being a snowflake about this, don't be one on his behalf.

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Back to the "secretly OP" debate, I'd like to add the Corsair Void Dreamer.

40k is ultimately a game about board control, and Aethermancy is all about movement, be it getting your guys around faster or moving your opponent's army around. Is that Barkstar blocking your passage? Just move it back into Ongoing Reserves and grab that objective. If you think Cult Ambush is the new OP hotness, try out Warp Blink (which incidentally also functions as a lesser version of the once-hated Lash) or Warp Tunnel out for size. Plus, with the draft FAQ ruling, a unit counts as all the factions of all the units joined to it; your Dreamer can chill with a beefy unit of Grotesques or so, granting them a 5++ from a Shimmershield in the process.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...Plus, with the draft FAQ ruling, a unit counts as all the factions of all the units joined to it...

 Jancoran wrote:

No one said anything about Deep striking.

 Jancoran wrote:

Anywho. Obviously it can die. Obviously. GIVEN that it can die...as every other thing in 40K can die... Does it wreck face in a serious way and does it matter to the grand scheme if I lose them? Clearly it wrecks a lot of face. Clearly its not easy to remove by anything in close combat. Clearly the only trick to using the Repentia is to block line of sight to them as they do their grisly work. This is all pretty much tactical considerations that have nothing to do with the unit, and everything to do with whose running them. So assuming one does the intelligent thing with them and doesn't leave them in the wind as you'd intimated that someone would,..