TwoGunBob wrote: Lynx is pretty dead on in the assessment. It's falls in line that kickstarter HATES the $1 'trolling and pulling' but they are not policing creators so backers have the right to do it themselves. You might think that everyone knows about Palladium's failure to do the distance but there may well be a few people unaware that there is affiliation between Rogue Heroes and Palladium even if Rogue Heroes isn't a shell company and that backing a Rogue Heroes kickstarter is at minimum as risky as backing another by Palladium.
I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that if something is stated as to how something will be handled....that it will be handled this way when the time comes? Is there some sort of enforcement mechanism in place that we should be aware of?
Not to sound like too much of a dick (beyond the usual, naturally), but if those assurances and plans are given...so what?
Regarding Step 1, I wasn't saying that Kickstarter determines the timeframe for completion. I'm saying Kickstarter gives Palladium a reasonable period to come up with one. If Palladium want to turn around and say it'll be Eo2020, that'd be one thing. But it'd stop this "Eo2014, no, Eo2015, I mean Eo2016, sorry, Eo2017, we mean it this time!" bs. And that PB then have to take the criticism if they pick a ridiculous timeframe.
Probably did misunderstand. Ok, for this, are you saying a general case of "every project Creator should file a 'latest by' date", or are you being very specific for only the case of RTT? Because I was sort of thinking the former.
If specific to RTT, there must be awareness at KS that the project is a problem child. I have this feeling that while the KS Helpdesk rolls their eyes whenever the project comes up, KS management may not be aware of it at all. For anything to happen, some management review has to happen -- and typically, that means there has to be some form of potential of damages to KS before that would happen.
Basically, if we want KS to do some work on this, we have to point out a way that this mess would hurt them in actual financial or reputation. Otherwise, they would hide behind the ToS crap that they have been using all along.
To be honest, even if we successfully triggered KS management to look at this, what most likely would happen is a back-end discussion with Kevin, and he's notorious for not listening to anything. At that point, KS mgmt must consider whether they want to take a hit on Creator confidence in them, and throw Kevin under the bus. Which would be quite funny, for a change.
(Funny that you should mention these two, but the KDM1.5 KS did put a 2020 date IIRC...)
Morgan Vening wrote: You argue that it'd open Kickstarter up to legal action. I'm thinking that the failure to hold Creators to the same Terms of Use that they suspend backers for, is more likely to eventually lead them to be co-named in a legal action. Showing that they aren't just about protecting backers from unaccountable creators, would go a long way to preventing that.
Oh I'm not trying to protect KS from legal actions. Either way could get them into trouble -- that's the risk of playing with two groups of users and trying to make money off them. The question is which one comes first, and how long would the wick burn.
I would like there to be a more solid community of Creators and Backers, right now it's honestly more of a pile of loose sand. But these things take a lot of time to reach maturity and KS should guide the development of the community.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
I'm sorry, are you under the impression that if something is stated as to how something will be handled....that it will be handled this way when the time comes? Is there some sort of enforcement mechanism in place that we should be aware of?
Not to sound like too much of a dick (beyond the usual, naturally), but if those assurances and plans are given...so what?
It'd establish a legal groundwork we didn't have under RRT? The problem we have with nearly everything that's come out of the RRT project is that stuff was fudged in such a way that there's nothing explicit to hold on to. The lack of explicitness with regards the parts count, the lack of explicitness when it comes to who is running the damned thing, that, like the issue with PB hiding behind Kickstarter's skirt when it comes to accountability, well... makes things less accountable. Basically, if I had any interest in backing (current interest is -3%, +/-3%) I'd want something that would be legally arguable as fraud if it happened. While that might not stop things, having an explicit statement that can't be argued around, even in the most craven way ("Backers first!"), would go a long way to being able to TRY to hold them accountable.
I swear the KS rules should be:
You post a "best estimate ship date on KS funding launch" for full delivery.
You only get to change the ship date 3 times to a maximum of 6 months each time.
The amount of funds spent must be recorded with as detailed list as possible before an extension is allowed.
After missing the last date, you default and must refund as best able. The extension records shall be used to determine legitimacy of what money was available.
Wordy, but only thing I can think of as a corrective action for this garbage we are facing.
I would be tempted for them to have to submit some report before an "update" can be given and if one is not done before a 3 month period they again default.
Regarding Step 1, I wasn't saying that Kickstarter determines the timeframe for completion. I'm saying Kickstarter gives Palladium a reasonable period to come up with one. If Palladium want to turn around and say it'll be Eo2020, that'd be one thing. But it'd stop this "Eo2014, no, Eo2015, I mean Eo2016, sorry, Eo2017, we mean it this time!" bs. And that PB then have to take the criticism if they pick a ridiculous timeframe.
Probably did misunderstand. Ok, for this, are you saying a general case of "every project Creator should file a 'latest by' date", or are you being very specific for only the case of RTT? Because I was sort of thinking the former.
If specific to RTT, there must be awareness at KS that the project is a problem child. I have this feeling that while the KS Helpdesk rolls their eyes whenever the project comes up, KS management may not be aware of it at all. For anything to happen, some management review has to happen -- and typically, that means there has to be some form of potential of damages to KS before that would happen.
Basically, if we want KS to do some work on this, we have to point out a way that this mess would hurt them in actual financial or reputation. Otherwise, they would hide behind the ToS crap that they have been using all along.
To be honest, even if we successfully triggered KS management to look at this, what most likely would happen is a back-end discussion with Kevin, and he's notorious for not listening to anything. At that point, KS mgmt must consider whether they want to take a hit on Creator confidence in them, and throw Kevin under the bus. Which would be quite funny, for a change.
(Funny that you should mention these two, but the KDM1.5 KS did put a 2020 date IIRC...)
Last thing first, I was meaning the original KDM Kickstarter which was almost two years late on it's original estimate for the core set, and additional six months late on most of it's remaining commitments (one remaining item got cancelled just before the new one started, and everyone was refunded for it).
And I meant more as a global thing. A project gets beyond 500% late (I think you could argue a MUCH lower timeframe), then it has to re-evaluate and give a completion date where backers are deserving (but not necessarily given) a refund. Some campaigns already allow refunds up to just before shipping, but I'm not expecting that, nor Kickstarter to enforce it.
Note, this doesn't require a campaign to give a completion date on launch. I don't mind that Kickstarter allow some flexibility when it comes to completion. Some things come up, things need to be rejiggered. Estimates should be estimates. But when a campaign goes so far beyond the pale that any reasonable person would be "What the hell?", then you THEN ask for a completion date.
My biggest problem with RRT in this fiasco isn't that it's going to be at least 4 years late. If they'd said in November 2014 "It's going to be three years before you get Wave 2" and further clarified that failure of them to do it would result in refunds being offered, they'd have had to face some harsh judgement, but at least people would be assured of completion. The problem I have, is that they can continue to kick this can down the road until Kevin retires, and never be held accountable.
As for throwing Kevin under the bus, my suggestion means that Kickstarter gives Palladium every opportunity before it removes it's protection. Palladium get to set the timetable for completion. And can throw in contingency time. But it locks PB into a timetable, after which backers will be able to more easily pursue the "The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers." that is specifically stated in the Terms of Use. The point I'm arguing, is that as long as Kevin gets to hide behind Kickstarter's skirt of "Well, they technically haven't failed as they still say they're working on it", legal actions become increasingly difficult.
Stopping PB from having infinite extensions before Kickstarter drop the shield, is what I'm arguing.
I know I went into the RRT as a dumbass basically. I assumed a lot regarding backer protection and creator responsibility. Hindsight being what it is, the solution for me was to not use Kickstarter at all. I got 1 out of 3 projects I've backed and I know a lot of creators are good for the projects. And as I mentioned, I sidestep Kickstarter entirely now if there's a project I'm interested in. During the funding period you have the ability to ask hard questions and it's become apparent it's the only time a creator will respond. Does requesting firm deadlines give any more protection? Not from Kickstarter but should you finally get pissed enough to get a lawyer you can point at it as a firm mention of contract because you are an investor after all because Kickstarer is not a store as they are so fond of saying.
I'd grill the hell out of Carmen regarding every potential situation regarding how involved Palladium is and what kind of execution rights Kevster has on taking over the project. When do Carmen's rights revert back to Palladium? Who are the production companies for the miniatures? Is Palldium taking care of printing inhouse? Cause once he has his money he will run as silent as Kevin and start throwing a lot of meaningless words around.
Course, between Defiance, Prodos, Palladium, etc. are there mayn of us that have been burned that still jump into Kickstarter projects still?
Talizvar wrote: I swear the KS rules should be:
You post a "best estimate ship date on KS funding launch" for full delivery.
You only get to change the ship date 3 times to a maximum of 6 months each time.
The amount of funds spent must be recorded with as detailed list as possible before an extension is allowed.
After missing the last date, you default and must refund as best able. The extension records shall be used to determine legitimacy of what money was available.
Wordy, but only thing I can think of as a corrective action for this garbage we are facing.
I would be tempted for them to have to submit some report before an "update" can be given and if one is not done before a 3 month period they again default.
I can see legislation eventually coming down that will require a VERY transparent view into pledge fund management, especially once a project goes 'late', maybe?
Projects can run over projected times in big ways. I am working on one such project.
The significant difference is that the project team I am on provides proof of work, explanations of why things are taking longer and support that the extended time spent will provide value.
We communicate.
Yeah, keeping an open line of communication goes a long way.
I know I've kicked the idea around of having a % based target tied to losing some of the 'omg we're totes still working on it!' as both a reasonable target above and beyond the estimate, and even better, it incentivizes Creators to pad their estimates well.
If they know that Kickstarter will no longer tolerate their claims after 500% of target, that provides a rather good reason to give a healthy delivery estimate rather than aiming low and saying 'omg this is so haaaard' when things go sideways.
Set a target for 6 months, at the 2.5 year mark things could get uglier. Set it for 1 year, you get half a decade.
The percentage being given could be changed, I'm not saying it has to be that, but the idea that there's an Estimate, and then there's the hyper inflated 'thou shalt deliver by' estimate, holds more appeal than 'there is an estimhahahahaha we'll deliver when we damned well please'.
It could be opt-in. I would feel more comfortable backing future projects if the creator showed that level of dedication to actually completing the damned thing. It could be optional until a certain funding level was hit, or percentage of funding (perhaps used to provide incentive for creators to also accurately gauge their funding goal rather than lowballing for the sweet 'omg we're at 2,000% of target!' bragging rights and front page position.
I'm just spitballing here. I too don't foresee much changing until it has to, either because something so bad happens it damages Kickstarter's entire brand, or legislatively because... like, some Senator's grandkid gets ripped off for a couple of grand and they decide its time the money train has a few brakes added.
Having a 1 month project go to 6 months is unfortunate, but not the end of the world. Having a 7 month project looking to likely hit half a decade without completing is a different story altogether. Maybe a sliding scale would be needed, or a bellcurve, there's lots of potential changes that could be made aside from 'stick with the status quo' we currently have.
Kickstarter Support (Kickstarter)
Mar 1, 12:48 PM EST
Hi there,
Here at Kickstarter, we expect creators to fulfill rewards, offer refunds if they’re unable to complete their project, and communicate with backers at every step along the way. While Kickstarter is the platform for this agreement, we are not a part of it. We do not investigate a project creator’s ability to complete their project, nor do we facilitate refunds or the fulfillment of rewards. While in most cases you’ll find that rewards are delivered as promised, it’s also important to realize that some projects might not fulfill as planned.
Our terms can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn’t fulfill their obligations under the agreement. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
n815e wrote: Projects can run over projected times in big ways. I am working on one such project.
The significant difference is that the project team I am on provides proof of work, explanations of why things are taking longer and support that the extended time spent will provide value.
We communicate.
That is the problem: being able to allow those who actually act in good faith to continue in a reasonable way or at least be made to take a good hard look at the progress if they genuinely got a little too excited and bit off more than they could chew.
What is needed is how to then deal with the "lip service". The creator has a bunch of money and may not want to part with it easily and going as cheap, slow boat from China (hand casting in the rice paddies?) levels to maximize profit.
I have a serious issue with "pre-order".
I have been burned by fairly "normal" companies because they have your money already so then retail gets priority (since that is money they do not have yet).
Or being too free with it and "oops" ran out.
Or the creator being distracted by something shiny and the KS hits low priority.
Then, we may be facing "all of the above" with our Palladium good friends who know how to demonstrate what to guard against.
Another option: KS insurance. Some 3rd party company offers, for a small fee when you pledge, insurance. Up front, if the KS doesn't complete by some fixed time (say, original ship date + 6 months), they "purchase" your pledge (essentially a refund) and then they can tackle the legalities of going after the creator (and possibly hassling KS, at least enough to get an offending creator banned from future projects), taking that effort off of the consumer. If the KS delivers, they just get to keep their fee.
There is one serious problem with calling or considering us "investors". Investors get protections. We do not. Investors can demand access to the books. We cannot. Thus we are not investors. Nor are we donors. Nor are we gift givers.
THAT is the problem with these crowd funding platforms and THAT is what needs to change.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
Well, KS isn't the only option Carmen has. Carmen stays the game designer, but Palladium publishes the game, through their website or retail, to loyal Palladium supporters. Carmen says the game is similar to Descent, so that means multiple scenarios. Chop the game up and sell the scenarios individually in plastic bags with a RIFTS adventure. Components would be cards, foldout map, and tokens. Sell the heroes as metal miniatures, either with the game, or a separate set. All components would be 28mm and compatible with sf miniatures games. Release the scenarios once or twice a year, depending on sales. Make small print runs. Obviously this is nowhere near the full-blown KS boardgame Carmen wanted, but it's pretty close to how hobby games were sold before KS. Metagames sold its small-scale Microgames this way in small polybags, and Cheapass Games sold its game in paper envelopes then cardboard this was as well. Cheapass eventually made its way to retail and KS, with its best-selling games. IIRC, In 1989, when West End Games sold its Star Wars Miniatures Battles games, they also did something similar to this.
Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Unless you've had very, VERY bad luck on Kickstarter and possibly also with this campaign seriously coloring your views, that's just not a realistic view of the platform!
I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
Well, KS isn't the only option Carmen has. Carmen stays the game designer, but Palladium publishes the game, through their website or retail, to loyal Palladium supporters. Carmen says the game is similar to Descent, so that means multiple scenarios. Chop the game up and sell the scenarios individually in plastic bags with a RIFTS adventure. Components would be cards, foldout map, and tokens. Sell the heroes as metal miniatures, either with the game, or a separate set. All components would be 28mm and compatible with sf miniatures games. Release the scenarios once or twice a year, depending on sales. Make small print runs. Obviously this is nowhere near the full-blown KS boardgame Carmen wanted, but it's pretty close to how hobby games were sold before KS. Metagames sold its small-scale Microgames this way in small polybags, and Cheapass Games sold its game in paper envelopes then cardboard this was as well. Cheapass eventually made its way to retail and KS, with its best-selling games. IIRC, In 1989, when West End Games sold its Star Wars Miniatures Battles games, they also did something similar to this.
Yeah, but in that scenario you don't get hundreds of thousands of dollars up front - money that is deadline free, commitment free, and interest free.
Kevin and Carmen don't seem to have any money. So, that's kind of an obstacle. Plus, it's not like Carmen wants to be too closely associated with Palladium Books - that's the entire point of his fraud of a company.
Stormonu wrote: Another option: KS insurance. Some 3rd party company offers, for a small fee when you pledge, insurance. Up front...
Ack, I'm triggered! I backed Up Front, too.
Fortunately, RRT and Up Front are the only two real failures that I've backed out of 80-ish projects. I don't get extended warranties and I wouldn't purchase KS insurance. Just not worth it.
I feel mislead. The only reason I backed RRT was because we were told that Ninja Division was running it. I didn't trust PB back then to make any reasonable ship date based on their previous performance and I trust them even less now.
It is shocking that the consumer protection division of the MI attorney general's office hasn't gotten interested in this case. Maybe not enough MI residents have complained?
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Unless you've had very, VERY bad luck on Kickstarter and possibly also with this campaign seriously coloring your views, that's just not a realistic view of the platform!
I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
I've backed 19 Kickstarters:
- 16 fully-delivered
- 2 partial delivery, unknown completion (RRT & Journey)
- 3 in-process
Some were very slow (Kingdom Death), but they fully delivered and the final quality justified the wait!
Stormonu wrote: Another option: KS insurance. Some 3rd party company offers, for a small fee when you pledge, insurance. Up front...
Ack, I'm triggered! I backed Up Front, too.
Fortunately, RRT and Up Front are the only two real failures that I've backed out of 80-ish projects. I don't get extended warranties and I wouldn't purchase KS insurance. Just not worth it.
I feel mislead. The only reason I backed RRT was because we were told that Ninja Division was running it. I didn't trust PB back then to make any reasonable ship date based on their previous performance and I trust them even less now.
It is shocking that the consumer protection division of the MI attorney general's office hasn't gotten interested in this case. Maybe not enough MI residents have complained?
Honestly, I've sometimes wondered if Kevin's "lawyer" IS the MI attorney general. That, or the AG has their hands tied/full with the water issue in Flint.
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Unless you've had very, VERY bad luck on Kickstarter and possibly also with this campaign seriously coloring your views, that's just not a realistic view of the platform!
I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
I've backed 19 Kickstarters:
- 16 fully-delivered
- 2 partial delivery, unknown completion (RRT & Journey)
- 3 in-process
Some were very slow (Kingdom Death), but they fully delivered and the final quality justified the wait!
Myself, 29 projects. Several have been 'disappointing' but technically delivered all that was promised, and a couple miss-shipped my order and it never got straightened out. RTT is the only 'serious failure to deliver' I've encountered.
Just remember when backing a KS you're getting a sales pitch. Reality seldom lives up to ANY sales pitch. Drinking Bud Lite doesn't get you smokin' hot (insert preferred gender here) either.
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Unless you've had very, VERY bad luck on Kickstarter and possibly also with this campaign seriously coloring your views, that's just not a realistic view of the platform!
I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
I have backed a total of 32 KS. Of those:
- 25 Have already delivered everything, on time or delayed, or are on track to do so. I am really happy with a significant amount of those, even if there are some disappointments in there.
- 5 I have yet to receive anything but they are from companies I trust and are going very well.
- 2 have gone by the wayside: this one and Mekton Zero (credit where credit is due, I got a partial completion out of RRT, even though nowhere near the value of what I paid for and the disappointment I've gotten out of it).
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Unless you've had very, VERY bad luck on Kickstarter and possibly also with this campaign seriously coloring your views, that's just not a realistic view of the platform!
I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
I've backed 19 Kickstarters:
- 16 fully-delivered
- 2 partial delivery, unknown completion (RRT & Journey)
- 3 in-process
Some were very slow (Kingdom Death), but they fully delivered and the final quality justified the wait!
Journeys so weird, it's like we all know it's not going to finish, but don't really complain, because we still hope it does. Strange they failed at the same degree as Palladium, but managed to not "Palladium" their backers.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
Well, KS isn't the only option Carmen has. Carmen stays the game designer, but Palladium publishes the game, through their website or retail, to loyal Palladium supporters. Carmen says the game is similar to Descent, so that means multiple scenarios. Chop the game up and sell the scenarios individually in plastic bags with a RIFTS adventure. Components would be cards, foldout map, and tokens. Sell the heroes as metal miniatures, either with the game, or a separate set. All components would be 28mm and compatible with sf miniatures games. Release the scenarios once or twice a year, depending on sales. Make small print runs. Obviously this is nowhere near the full-blown KS boardgame Carmen wanted, but it's pretty close to how hobby games were sold before KS. Metagames sold its small-scale Microgames this way in small polybags, and Cheapass Games sold its game in paper envelopes then cardboard this was as well. Cheapass eventually made its way to retail and KS, with its best-selling games. IIRC, In 1989, when West End Games sold its Star Wars Miniatures Battles games, they also did something similar to this.
problem is there is a very big cost difference between the start up costs of a board game and game books. and there in lies the rub. right now I don't think PB can even afford to print off books.
Alpharius wrote: I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
Egads! You are hard-core. I had no idea.
Well, any of us who had any contact with Palladium had a suspicion they do not fit in any category remotely like "normal".
It is easy to obsess with the idea that "these methods worked when dealing with all other companies", it is a whole different matter when faced with a supplier that really does not care: self interest with extreme short sighted behavior is the rule.
I have slowly got into some other Kickstarters and have found them working out.
Problem is the RRT project has made me a bit paranoid which makes me appear more "high maintenance" for creators.
I just do not regularly drop a couple hundred dollars on my hobbies in one shot in retail.
My sugar-mama wife may have something nasty to say if I get too costly.
stanman wrote: Nowdays I prefer to walk into a casino and bet it all on black, one spin. It has about the same odds and return as any project on KS. If I win I go spend it at the gaming store.
Sheesh, I thought the joke would be obvious, but I apparently needed one of these at the end
Some of you guys back a horrific amount of KS projects, I've only backed 4 one of which was RRT :(
Kick starter stance is something like PayPal, they try to only assist with the transaction and nothing else. But they need to resolve issues like this because most people have lost trust and now back fewer projects. They could even improve the bottom line by fining companies that are clearly dodging the issues. If palladium knew they had to complete in a certain time or get fined over and over, I think they would either refund or finish.
Live: 2
Did not Fund: 1 (Robotech Takeover, this was a joke so I didn't expect it to fund)
Did not Deliver: 1 (Defiance, tossed a few bucks on off chance that they really did kick Tony to the curb like WGF. Shame it wasn't the case)
Partial Delivery: 1 (RRT, thought ND was going to be doing the work/promotion)
In Progress: 3
Late: 4
On Time (or close to it): 6
Of the late ones, 3 were from companies that I have subsequently backed another project for because they delivered and I was happy with what I got. The other one was Heavy Gear Blitz and I'll have to have a long think about whether or not I back the next one.
Of the on time ones, 5 were gaming related with 2 terrain, 2 miniatures and 1 miniatures on a board. Generally what made them successful and on-time was:
1. Limited number of stretch goals.
2. Reasonably spaced stretch goals.
3. 98% done (*) prior to Kickstarting (* more like 70-80% done, but for the miniatures and terrain, the goal was to use KS to help offset the cost for tooling/molds and the companies were also putting their own money in)
Of the ones in progress, I know one will deliver (Reaper CAV II) with the other 2 being video games, but still appear to be on track.
Alpharius wrote: I've backed 142 (!) campaigns, and all of them have actually (eventually!) delivered or are still well on track to do so.
Egads! You are hard-core. I had no idea.
I just do not regularly drop a couple hundred dollars on my hobbies in one shot in retail.
My sugar-mama wife may have something nasty to say if I get too costly.
-raises hand- Based on Alphy's posting in practically every KS-related thread, I had an idea that he was throwing a fair bit more money at KS than I was. I just wasn't sure how much more. I certainly hope he's selling off the stuff he's not actively playing!
Until recently, I've not really seen anything that's really gotten me excited to put money on. Then KDM 1.5 and Smog appeared. KDM is going to get a lot of money. Smog, a basic pledge.
My wife had something to say when she saw my KDM pledge appear on the credit card statement...
TWO SECTIONS RELATING TORRT! Let's see what they have to say...
Meanwhile, all hands are on deck to hammer out one exciting new release after another. We have some very exciting plans for several game lines including Rifts®, Robotech®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™, Palladium Fantasy®, Dead Reign®, Heroes Unlimited™ and just about everything, really. I think our focus will be Rifts®, Palladium Fantasy®, Dead Reign®, and a few other settings the first half of the year, and Robotech® and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ in the second half, though there is a lot of setup going on for Robotech®/RRT happening right now.
So, they're still sticking to the claim that 2017 is the year. And that they're actually progressing. Yeah, not buying it without some visual evidence, or a guarantee (ie, refunds if it doesn't happen).
Welcomed ideas are coming from all over the place – staff, freelancers and fans like you – on ways to support and advance Robotech® RPG Tactics™, from existing product to Wave Two and beyond. We think we have some pretty exciting things in the works. Despite the long delays and what some people believe, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ has always been a passion project for us. We want to redeem ourselves in your eyes with the Wave Two rewards and so much more. We are trying to put together some big and small ideas for product and support, right now, and think we are looking at some exciting possibilities. We try to learn from our mistakes and strive to create a superior product, starting with Wave Two rewards. When we have the hard details, our Kickstarter backers will be the first to know about them.
Passion project, my arse. Sorry, the complete lack of interest by PB is evidence that noone cares about this project except for the millstone around their neck. There's no evidence that anyone at PB plays RRT, and almost everything to come out of it has been through volunteers who have left. Learn from your mistakes? When you keep repeating the same ones over and over? Again, big on promise, small on detail. How about an example of one of those big or small ideas for product and support? Even if it doesn't pan out, you can caveat that drek. But the project has languished under delays and lack of communication, and an obvious disinterest in garnering goodwill.
If Kevin had the ability to drop the project, walk away, all remaining funds and loans to the company forfeit, I think he'd do it in a heartbeat. Again, passion project, my arse.
In other news, it looks like they're still sticking to the "5 books by May" line. Though Arsenal has moved from "March" to "March/April" even though it's in "final production". Kevin also decided to accelerate Sovietski, adding it to Dead Reign Inner City for a "Summer" release. So that's 5 books by May, and another two by what, end of July? Yeah, I can see that happening.
Carmen seems to be on the mend, but Kevin in usual fashion, talks him down. He really does seem to like negging on his friends and staff. The Rifts BG is set for an April date with Kickstarter. at least according to Kevin. Hoping it's the third Thursday. Cause there'd be some twisted humor to it being launched 4 years to the day after RRT.
To build on Morgan's (spot on) commentary, the notion that they have to make the relaunch BIG and AMAZING and THE BEST THING EVAR is so very counterproductive. No, stop, that time has passed. Just make it good. Make it fine. Use wave one as the benchmark to at least hit, and if you get a bit futher (say the Super VT's are even easier to build than VT's, despite having more parts/being bigger, that'd be nice).
Their (and by "they" I obviously mean "Kevin") need to forever be chasing the perfect is to ignore the massive diminishing returns that will be seen by such efforts.
Deliver the fething wave, work on the book(s), look into 'ideas big and small' in the future. They can talk about competitive play or tournaments or events or leagues or whatever they're batting around for hours, but without product in hand very few people are going to give a gak.
Stop adding gak to your plate! When they have failed to deliver in anything remotely resembling a reasonable time frame, adding even more to their efforts is just insane. At best, it does improve things but likely stretches that time line further, at worst it actively further detracts and garners even more ire.
By that stance, it is a misdirection, and a waste of both their time and ours.
If they really want to begin to mend the damage they've done (and boy, it's a lot), drop the 'hopeful dreamers with stars in our eyes' stance, buckle down, and get stuff done. There's a bit under three dozen elements remaining in wave 2, and we've seen prototypes for 5 of them. Show off more of those. Show off some sprue breakdown renders like they did in 2014 and 2015. Can't talk about things being worked on now? Talk about some of these 'quotes' that you got in the past, ones from a year or two back when they were 'getting quotes' and are clearly no longer relevant ("One factory wanted to cut the FPA into a hundred pieces, we politely declined", etc.
In true PB fashion, they continue to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Has PB even released one of their projected Q1 books yet this year? I quit getting that rag and have only been reading the RRT updates reposted here (so nothing for this year...)
As for KSs, I'm at 50% - backed Zombicide 2 & 3 (which went swimmingly), RRT and Defiance's hardshells.
However, I had seriously considered, but ended up not getting involved in Dinorun (failed to fund), All Quiet on the Martian Front (KS partially delivered, company then went bankrupt), AVP (KS partially delivered, still has ongoing issues), and Conan (not sure what happened on it, sounds like it had some serious issues) and 7th Sea (found out about it after the KS ended, not sure if it ever delivered).
Overall, I just don't feel lucky with KS's, and considering what CAN go wrong with them I'd just rather not take the risk and just wait for the results to show up in retail.
Well, it's getting harder for them to talk about working on something that they are not working on. Hence we get repeated, less parts talk, design in motion, getting quotes. It's really hard to talk about nothing and Kevin is finding it hard to write puff pieces cause you can only spin doing nothing for three years so many ways.
The only perfection Kevin is chasing is an editorial he can cut and paste into updates for the rest of his life without having to work his brain in creative writing efforts. I'd like to think Kevster has a grapefruit sized ulcer from this but rather I think he sleeps just fine at night with a pillow stuffed with the remaining funds of the backers. Assuming there's enough left broken down into singles to fill a pillow, there might not even be that.
Stormonu wrote: Has PB even released one of their projected Q1 books yet this year? I quit getting that rag and have only been reading the RRT updates reposted here (so nothing for this year...)
You mean from the list for Q1-2 this year? Bwahahahah! Nope.
They got one out last year barely on time (Rifts Coalition States Heroes of Humanity, June 2016), but only after splitting the book with Arsenal due out a month later. That's the one they're working on now.
The reason I bring up last years, is because most of this years are ALSO last year's.
This is the 2016 "Will be done in the first half of the year" list, reordered. Here are the completions, - Rifts®, The Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity™ Sourcebook– in final production right now. Ships end of February. (Shipped June) - Dead Reign® Sourcebook: Hell Followed™ – Spring or Summer. (Shipped November)
And here are the outstanding from 2016. EDIT - incorrect date. - Rifts® The Disavowed™ Sourcebook – in production right now. Ships March, 2016. (Spring, 2016) - Rifts® Secrets of the Atlanteans™ Sourcebook by Carl Gleba – Spring, 2016. - Rifts® Haunted Tech™ by Kevin Siembieda sourcebook – Spring or Summer. - Garden of the Gods™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook by Kevin Siembieda – Spring. - Lopan™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Adventure Sourcebook – Spring or Summer. - Chaos Earth® First Responders (more than you may imagine) – Summer.
This is the "First half of 2017" version. - Rifts® Heroes of Humanity™ ARSENAL – 96 or 128 pages – March/April, in final production right now. It too is laying the groundwork for something big. - Rifts® The Disavowed™ Sourcebook – by Kevin Siembieda and Matthew Clements – April/May. - Rifts® Secrets of the Atlanteans™ – 192 pages – March/April, also in production now and looking great. - Garden of the Gods™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook – by Kevin Siembieda – March/April. - Dead Reign® Inner City Survival Sourcebook (tentative title) – Spring. - Rifts® Sovietski™ – Spring or Summer Release
Note the similarity. Also, the last two from 2016 have been put into the "Coming Later in 2017 and 2018" category. So they've been backburnered.
Seriously, if Kevin hadn't apparently been like this for the majority of his tenure, I'd think he'd slipped into dotage.
Stormonu wrote: Has PB even released one of their projected Q1 books yet this year? I quit getting that rag and have only been reading the RRT updates reposted here (so nothing for this year...)
As for KSs, I'm at 50% - backed Zombicide 2 & 3 (which went swimmingly), RRT and Defiance's hardshells.
However, I had seriously considered, but ended up not getting involved in Dinorun (failed to fund), All Quiet on the Martian Front (KS partially delivered, company then went bankrupt), AVP (KS partially delivered, still has ongoing issues), and Conan (not sure what happened on it, sounds like it had some serious issues) and 7th Sea (found out about it after the KS ended, not sure if it ever delivered).
Overall, I just don't feel lucky with KS's, and considering what CAN go wrong with them I'd just rather not take the risk and just wait for the results to show up in retail.
From my experience with them:
- Conan delivered spectacularly well, but had some problems with the rulebook.
- 7th Sea is delivering ahead of time on everything, even though the system has ended up being not too much to my liking.
So......rrt will get your focus in the second half of 2017.....and you talking quotes without any completed renders or print prototypes (cuz lord knows if you actually HAD any you'd show them in hopes of getting praised for it) and you expect us to believe this shyte? God Kevin is a stunned **** .
So, Jaymz, considering they plan to launch the new KS, whether it had a catastrophic effect on someone's health or not...
As someone in the know in general, was this whole Carmen thing a real thing, or was it a cunning plan to garner sympathy and try to save their upcoming KS?
Desperate people do desperate things... That is truly sad if the whole Carmen thing was faked ...
Also he now calls Robotech Tactics a Passion project... Lets see..
Internet definition for passion project is something you work on (often outside of your chosen career path) that gives you satisfaction,
happiness and puts you into a state of flow. It's what you do to escape it all. Its your tiny (or huge) contribution to the world.
Plus.. 1.4 million USD.. you think someone would be a little more than just passionate about the project.. It would be a company goal..
When I think of passion, I think of dating..If I dated a girl then didn't do anything with her for three and a half years.. But I did email her each
week saying that I still wanted a relationship...Would she still think I cared for her??
I going back to my thought that Kevin is in early stages of dementia..He is not thinking like a healthy adult..
I wonder if Kevin rubs his hands together in glee at the thought of all the Palladium fans he's going to disappoint whenever he writes a pbwu.
He knows they look forward to the releases, even going so far as to describe what they tell him in person, yet, year after year, the same routine, announce the years releases, fail to release them all. Any sane person would immediately realise that by the failure to release the product someone told them they were looking forward to, they have dissapointed that person.
And yet he brags about it.
I think the incident is likely true though suspicion is understandable.
I am more of the mind he is obligated to do something or lose ownership up of all the work he is done.
I've known people who've attempted what carmen has and i know people who know people that have. In not one instance did ANY of them attempt to "get back at it" so quickly thus my belief of some other factor essentially forcing him too.
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm not sure why needing to be in the hands of a painter applies here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the boxes and advertising material just use artwork as opposed to pictures?
I mean, I don't disagree with your assertion regarding completion, but not for the same reason.
The fact that we're already months behind compared to wave 1 is why I suspect 2017 is a write off as well (as they all are, but again we're playing in the land of hypotheticals) and they just haven't admitted it yet.
Geez it seems like this is the update that needs to be reported to KS, it's so transparently an excuse to continue doing no work.
So they're getting quotes - no wait they're reducing parts count - no wait they're going to work on it by the end of the year. There's no way you can get quotes while reducing parts count, the parts have to be done so you can get a quote.
Genoside07 wrote: Kevin is at a Game Convention in Mississippi this weekend...
Someone needs to swing by and ask him what is going on..
Unless you are willing to start by asking "How awesome are you?" or "What amazing things are you working on?" or "I (was) a big fan of your work!", the response will be "Gottagobye!"
When you talk to him you can tell he is in a constant state of deciding on "talk normally" until a difficult question is asked: <if guy looks wimpy> then lose it on them or <if guy looks scary> then leave quickly with an excuse.
I have seen all of this play itself out at conventions.
It really is a pointless exercise, if you want to make an impact: just walk past their stand and keep going.
If you must do something: pick a "minion" near Kevin and be all excited about them.
It will get his attention and just pretend you have no idea who Kevin is and show no interest in speaking to him.
Excitement!
Speaking of that, why is RRT suddenly all hyper excitement at the moment?
Spoiler:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
Welcomed ideas are coming from all over the place – staff, freelancers and fans like you – on ways to support and advance Robotech® RPG Tactics™, from existing product to Wave Two and beyond. We think we have some pretty exciting things in the works. Despite the long delays and what some people believe, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ has always been a passion project for us. We want to redeem ourselves in your eyes with the Wave Two rewards and so much more. We are trying to put together some big and small ideas for product and support, right now, and think we are looking at some exciting possibilities. We try to learn from our mistakes and strive to create a superior product, starting with Wave Two rewards. When we have the hard details, our Kickstarter backers will be the first to know about them.
I keep expecting to hear "I have a cunning plan!"
"No Kevin, that is gas from your lunch..."
Do I REALLY have to update my address since I had moved a while back?
Or am I a big fat sucker?
So many questions... possibly best left unanswered.
I used to go to Coastcon (that's the con mentioned), but I think it'd be better for my own health if I stayed away. Being that close to him would only make my blood boil and otherwise ruin an enjoyable weekend/Con of which I have old fond memories.
Stormonu wrote: I used to go to Coastcon (that's the con mentioned), but I think it'd be better for my own health if I stayed away. Being that close to him would only make my blood boil and otherwise ruin an enjoyable weekend/Con of which I have old fond memories.
I saw them at "Anime North" and I can say it is pretty easy to get distracted with something shiny there.
The kids go insane over the costumes and the people who made them are very happy to have their work recognized.
Probably one of the happiest venues I have been to with so many people.
Nope, no worries if PB darkened the halls: you would not notice.
Stormonu wrote: I used to go to Coastcon (that's the con mentioned), but I think it'd be better for my own health if I stayed away. Being that close to him would only make my blood boil and otherwise ruin an enjoyable weekend/Con of which I have old fond memories.
I saw them at "Anime North" and I can say it is pretty easy to get distracted with something shiny there.
The kids go insane over the costumes and the people who made them are very happy to have their work recognized.
Probably one of the happiest venues I have been to with so many people.
Nope, no worries if PB darkened the halls: you would not notice.
That's the thing - I stopped going because there was more to do in my game room at home than at Coastcon (and I had more stock than the anemic dealer's room), especially after the Battletech Pods stopped showing up.
Last great memory from that Con was getting to show off and explain a Zombicide game we were playing to John de Lancie ("Q", from Star Trek TNG).
I guess I'm kinda afraid that something similiar might happen with KS ... and I wouldn't be able to resist giving him a piece of my mind.
You guys pretty much see me at my flaming worst here, so take that as you will.
Ha! I saw "Scotty and Q" at a venue called "The miracle worker's convention.".
My impression was John would not suffer fools lightly.
He was running rings around a guy (verbally) who was trying to interview him last I saw him.
This again points to there is time better spent meeting interesting people.
If you must do something: pick a "minion" near Kevin and be all excited about them.
It will get his attention and just pretend you have no idea who Kevin is and show no interest in speaking to him.
According to Kickstarter I have backed 13 projects:
3 failed to fund or were cancelled (so I was not billed).
7 have delivered.
2 are currently in production.
1 started delivering a year late, then basically ran out of funding a short way into delivery (I did not receive my rewards), but the creators are supposedly trying to find traditional investors to allow them to finish the project and move forwards as a company.
So basically, out of 8 projects that should have delivered by now only 1 has not. I guess I've been very lucky.
I completely understand delays; things happen and it takes more time..
As with Reaper bones 3; The were to ship in October 2016 and now delayed till
March 2017/April 2017, I have not blinked an eye at this delay..
Couple hundred miniatures produced over seas can be a problem.
But the real trick is they keep updating where the containers are and what is doing on..
Now with Robotech tactics they are over three years late and still saying they are getting
manufacture quotes.. You are still at step one after all this time.. Why do they think this is okay?
What makes it worse is Kevin's resolve there is nothing wrong going on.. He will get to it
when he has time.. The fact is most was under the notion that Ninja Division was running
the project and soon found out that a company with no miniature background was taking the helm.
Yeah, like many others, if I hadn't thought ND was running the show (and PB's only involvement was just in so the rights could be used) I wouldn't have pledged.
The real red flag, though, should have been all the minis they kept adding, but I was holding off pledging until the female PA was added.
3 Cancelled (Funding wasn't going to be met, the creator realised and stopped; one went on to self-fund, another repackaged the KS later.)
1 did not fund.
5 Bad cases (RRT, 2 tech cases that went south, Total Extinction and of course Defiance. Interestingly, for the 2 tech cases, one got to prototype phase before running out of money and going under, the other had so much hot air, I bailed early and got a refund.. I should go take a look at the comments to see where that went.)
2 "Technically successful but Bad Taste" case, 1 tech, the other the infamous Dust/ Battlefront idiocy. In the end got the stuff but the trip was so long and stupid that it wasn't worth it.
4 ongoing.
1 Going south case, comms breakdown at delivery stage; might still be salvageable if I can find the bugger.
34 OK cases. Not everything went smooth but eventual reasonable delivery.
So optimistically... ~80+% success rate (better if you remove all the cancelled cases), 10~12% bad. Looks good but some of the 80% were very simple projects, nothing too complex.
Generally speaking tech projects tend to have higher risks due to higher capital outlay, but games projects tend to be more frustrating when newbies take a bad crack at things. The best projects are those I can happily ignore and still maintain good comms back to the backers.
I decided to try a little math just to get perspective (lord knows I need it).
So I figured out about how many "distinct" models we get.
So assuming artillery pods is 2, VT variants are 3 (including Rick and Roy, VEF and VF all as 3 each) except experimental and armored is 1, Zent infantry is 2... etc.
So including all resin, objectives and the monster... long story short: 49 models
The kick-starter launched April 18 2013 and remember, much of this stuff was underway and "nearly complete" for December 2013 full delivery.
As of today, calculating work days excluding weekends they have had 1013 since then <Excel formula: =networkdays(4/18/2013,today())>.
So, they were able to spend as long as 20.7days per model on this project or more.
You can fuss on some of the details, I showed my math so adjust as you see fit. Pretty much a working month per model type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I decided to look into Rogue Heroes a bit since it has some relevance to RRT as another Palladium IP provider.
So some appropriate steps look like they have been taken, like with any Kickstarter: the devil is in the details.
I will minimum pledge for the KS because it is of interest to monitor.
I throw the gauntlet and say "convince me" that Palladium Books cannot reach into this and mess it up.
Then the second step is to see if Rogue Heroes has the right plans in place to pull this off.
If they want this thing to fund, those questions to be answered will be the #1 thing to address.
Getting some of their stuff both in floor plans and models printed off would be a good means of demonstration as well.
Some "getting started" game rules would be good to peruse as well.
The Savage Worlds: Rifts went very well and I was hard pressed to find fault with it other than my usual issue.
Trying to keep an open mind but I am still bothered by Palladium getting any money at all.
Most of the harm has been done by the licensing being paid for so not much to say now.
I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.
I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?
jaymz wrote: I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.
I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?
The latest trend is the 2nd edition Kickstarter, to try to pump life into DOA games
jaymz wrote: at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route?
I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?
That point simply does not exist in the world of miniatures boardgaming. The cost of creating a miniatures boardgame is very high, due to the exceptionally high tooling costs, but the take rate can be very low. High upfront capital costs, unknown demand = high risk. If these concepts were to be done for traditional retail they would likely all be produced and sold as the minimum viable product, with every corner cut for the same $100 that backers currently pay. The vastly reduced value per dollar suggests that the product would likely not take off, due to much reduced word of mouth and lack of marketing push. And likely, the volumes are lower, because the manufacturer doesn't want to get stuck with dead inventory.
The point is to create the game. If the demand is sound, and it takes off, then it's not too hard to run off additional production runs like Zombicide did.
For miniatures boardgames, specifically, the ability to precisely gauge demand via confirmed, prepaid preorder is unparalled. It's arguably the "perfect" match for crowdfunding.
Hey! I backed that one.
Their issues are understandable.
I like these guys, their past games have been good.
It is all about history and honesty: it works.
They have a good track record.
No worries here.
I have a feeling a number of folks in this thread backed both the Defiance kickstarter and the BT one (I would have, if I hadn't put a self-moratorium on KS's).
Merijeek wrote: Hey, I would expect most people around here to have backed Battletech.
They had an issue, and instead of being a bunch of dicks about it, they actually admitted it and acted like adults.
How refreshing.
Yeah, I backed too, and I'm not worried in the least. It will be a tad later than I hoped for, but nothing unexpected. AND they're being pretty clear about their problems and where exactly they are in the process, so there's no gripes.
jaymz wrote: I do have to wonder.....the concept of crowd =funding was to give the little guy the ability to do something they could not do via traditional means....so at what point is it just not ethical to keep doing kickstarters when you have shown yourself to be quite successful and likely capable of going a more traditional route? Seems to me that the more you use the CF method the less likely you will have customers at retail which seems...silly but a realistic outcome as more and more would go thru KS to get the better deal.
I mean what is the point if only a few thousand people end up with your product spread worldwide? Wouldn't the goal to be successful at normal retail and become self sustaining?
To elaborate a bit more on JHDD's points, I'm not sure "ethics" ever enters into the equation for private businesses. If GW, for example, did a crowd-funding campaign for plastic Sisters of Battle (self-hosted of course; they don't share money) people might cry foul since GW is a publicly traded company with actual investors to provide capital. However, as a gauge of interest to confirm that they're not putting said investors money at risk to develop that range it's an excellent data collection mechanism so it's not unethical so much as tacky.
Where I think most KS projects run aground on the after-project success is how incredibly small the crowdfunding community really is; it's a niche within a niche. Look at the massive success of KD:M 1.5, it still "only" had 20k backers and that was the high-water mark of gaming kickstarters to-date. Even with their slowdowns I'm thinking that's likely what GW expects each SM kit they produce to shift with ease though obviously GW doesn't disclose such numbers. There's a big disparity there, largely caused by GW having a retail presence already. Most companies do not have that, don't have the distribution channels and don't have the framework in place to build it.
I think the question becomes what is the intent of the creator. The aforementioned KD:M has little-to-no interest in retail. It is very much a passion project of the creator that would never get made otherwise; the content and scope of it is just beyond what any traditional publisher would have taken on (and likely remains so even with the established strength of the brand). If a creator intends to go to retail then as John said they ideally just want to break-even on KS which leaves them with the capital investments complete if there's a demand at retail. Absent a distribution chain like Reaper's though, that's going to fail to pan out long-term more often than not, and it presumes the creator has their own funds to cover the retail run; even if substantially cheaper in comparison it's not "free" if you have another 20+ models to go. Trying to get project+retail stock out of a KS seems a likely point of overreach, which with hindsight for RRT seems to be borne out.
For most companies KS can become a vicious circle, especially if they are not a production/distribution house themselves. It will see many cool projects made, but the path to being able to not need KS at all is not something that seems particularly likely. It's like an addicting drug; some people on it seem to be able to be reasonably functional (CMON), some people occasionally fall apart (Mantic springs to mind, but many others), and some end up in an alley rooting through garbage trying to find enough metal cans for their next fix (PB...).
Crowd funding would be very hard for even a large company to resist due to the benefits for them.
The backer assumes all the risk, the creator company does not even have to bring forward any capital for what really is a product R&D/Development effort.
You already have your potential buyer's money up front for product and you may even change the parameters of the product to make it cheaper regardless if your customer agrees with it or not.
I have seen many cases where pre-order has been bad and I had sworn off it due to the disadvantages are worse than the benefits.
Crowd funding is just going the step further where the company will not even start development without a pre-order so market research and funding rolled into one..
The only time I could see a successful company not use kickstarter is greed: they take 14-15% off the top.
BUT if you are happy with advertising on their site and the means of dealing with investors, it may be viewed as a deal.
Worry about slitting your own throat in retail is balanced by how much you want to entice investors into your project with rewards.
The way I look at it, if the design is a good idea and there is a need for it in the market, it will come out to retail in most cases.
Where we got stuck here is when a company holds the IP of a product we want and it is them or no-one and they are too cheap to bother unless the money is there.
Like with Rogue Heroes, licensing had to be paid, company registration is there with being incorporated which is the same as USA LLC where it is a separate entity than the owner.
It is correct that shares could be issued to raise money as well if bank loans are not looking possible.
They do not have the resources for marketing or possibly distribution to retail yet so crowd funding may be the only means for "the little guy" to get a project out.
I would say unless I "know" the company is good (or I am willing to throw away money), crowd funding is getting put in the same category as advanced orders which is the "almost never do it" realm of things.
Well it begin again the topic of Crowd funding. I have four outstanding projects at this time. The first one which is RRT is big failure in my eyes and I don't think PB will do wave 2 ever no matter what year you put in. The other three will get done by the end of this year. CAV2 ,BTPC game and weather device. Whats funning about two weeks ago the Detroit News business section on five ways how to save money . Number five was not to crowd fund because there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY. I read that and I laugh. The one is to check the creator out and check the track record on who doing the KS. I think I did pretty well so far. RRT is my first and worst KS to date.
Aside, GW should definitely crowdfund Sisters of Battle, simply to settle the question of just how popular Sisters really are. I would love to see how much money Games Workshop could raise - it's probably far, far less than what the handful of remaining Sisters players imagine. Heck, just going by the "success" of Raging Heroes 2, we know it's a tiny, tiny niche. Thing is, I'm not sure that crowdfunding a Sisters Codex and plastics would even cover GW's upfront development costs, so not "tacky" at all. If it doesn't raise enough, would GW simply Squat Sisters permanently? OTOH, if it actually succeeds (highly doubtful), it's perfect for GW, as it basically makes Sisters of Battle a GW Exclusive Preorder with zero profit split to retail distribution. Cha-ching!
KD:M 1.5 raised $12M upfront, and will likely pull in a few $M in the pledge manager. Let's call it $15M total revenue before fees. That's HUGE for anybody in the miniatures gaming business who isn't Games Workshop or Hasbro. Consider that Privateer Press is only a $5-6M company, and that's ALL Warmahordes combined. Palladium?? Ha! Of course, KD:M actually delivered a really good product, and fully refunded what they couldn't...
Considering that CMON is actually a publishing house that does marketing for their studios, their choice of serial Kickstarter is a good one. For all intents and purposes, they are a media publishing company, where they advance to studios to develop product, then organize the product launch and marketing campaign to get preorder money.
But don't think that people are prepaying for development. The successful KS expect 80-90% done prior to KS launch, not launching an idea and a prayer. KS is really to nail down numbers and production volumes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: But don't think that people are prepaying for development. The successful KS expect 80-90% done prior to KS launch, not launching an idea and a prayer. KS is really to nail down numbers and production volumes.
With smarter creators I would tend to agree with you.
With most I have seen so-far: everything remains as "electrons" until there is money to buy the tooling, production time and the almighty shipping.
The volume of backer funds decides the economy of scale to shoot for so the production volumes really determines the tooling assets to get.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Aside, GW should definitely crowdfund Sisters of Battle, simply to settle the question of just how popular Sisters really are. I would love to see how much money Games Workshop could raise - it's probably far, far less than what the handful of remaining Sisters players imagine. Heck, just going by the "success" of Raging Heroes 2, we know it's a tiny, tiny niche. Thing is, I'm not sure that crowdfunding a Sisters Codex and plastics would even cover GW's upfront development costs, so not "tacky" at all. If it doesn't raise enough, would GW simply Squat Sisters permanently? OTOH, if it actually succeeds (highly doubtful), it's perfect for GW, as it basically makes Sisters of Battle a GW Exclusive Preorder with zero profit split to retail distribution. Cha-ching!
.
That's not a very good comparison. Raging Heroes 1 was such a clusterfeth that it was only natural for the second to do poorly. Shieldwolf was able to fund plastic shieldmaidens, and they are a tiny nobody of a company with only one plastic kit in their portfolio. If GW launched a Sisters kickstarter, they'd probably make more from backers looking to base their Grey Knights than Shieldwolf made from actual enthusiasts. I know I'd put money towards Sisters when I wouldn't throw a used snotrag at Ragin' Shiroz.
That's why I'd want it to be crowdfunded with transparency in revenue. We'd see to what people are willing to pay for actual GW official product with GW standard global fulfillment (very good, BTW!) vs Raging Heroes and other knockoff product.
Kickstarter was never "intended" for any purpose or scale of business.
As much as people complain about large companies using it - it would be stupid not to. A successful company doesn't "owe" anybody bad business decisions. A company considering a new product can do one of two things:
1) Invest X amount of money (often taking out a loan, etc.) in a product with the hope that the consumer base is interested in it.
2) Gather X amount of money before creating said product - getting incredibly valuable consumer feedback at the same time while being able to gauge consumer interest.
Why should you punish a large company for doing what is 100% the smarter option to continue to run as a business? Why is it "wrong" for a large company to gather money before investing on nothing more than market research and hope? I don't understand the logic here. You don't think automotive manufacturers would prefer to do a Kickstarter style program instead of investing billions of dollars in factories/machines/etc. only to produce a car which no one buys? Sure there are companies which are big enough to weather the penalty of producing a product no one purchases (we've seen plenty of flops in the miniature gaming market).
I think we've all seen Kickstarters which show up and hit 4% of their goal (even if it's a $1000 goal). That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?). I bet the failed Kickstarter owners are thanking their lucky stars that they had the chance to see that it was going to be a poorly received product. I see no reason why that should be restricted to small time companies/fledgling start-ups.
It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.
We should start filling out a pool for when and how this will end. It must be moving towards some kind of final update, right? PB can't drag this out for another 4-5 years. Actually, they probably could.
Elbows wrote: Kickstarter was never "intended" for any purpose or scale of business.
I think we've all seen Kickstarters which show up and hit 4% of their goal (even if it's a $1000 goal). That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?). I bet the failed Kickstarter owners are thanking their lucky stars that they had the chance to see that it was going to be a poorly received product. I see no reason why that should be restricted to small time companies/fledgling start-ups.
It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.
And vice versa, how much money gets left on the table with underestimated demand. If you miss a holiday season, that can be a big money hit. Consider Hatchimals from 3-4 months ago. Are those still a big deal now that the holiday is done? Not so much. eBay now has them selling at MSRP
Ctaylor wrote: We should start filling out a pool for when and how this will end. It must be moving towards some kind of final update, right? PB can't drag this out for another 4-5 years. Actually, they probably could.
This is the rather interesting legal wrinkle: how long can they go?
Is a quarterly, annual "update" of "we are working on it!!" all they are obliged to do?
Unless someone takes a strong run at calling them on this I really CAN see it go on forever until it looks like it can quietly be dropped.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: That's invaluable research for the person or company putting the product out there (and shockingly some don't get it and try 2-3-4 times to launch the same product no one wants to buy - remember the sh_tty little mad-max car game that was attempted a dozen times by the guy with crappy sculpts?).
I think that was "Road Kill".
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/967512676/car-combat-miniatures-and-road-kill-game-system It did OK.
I got to play it at "HotLead" and talk to Miles Holmes and the mechanics were pretty fun.
I think he still has it so you can print out everything you need to play the game itself.
Since I used to play "Car Wars" way back when, this seems positively streamlined in comparison.
It's smart business, full stop. You take the minimal risk possible when launching a new product. Ethics don't play into it.
Like I said earlier, the only drawback is if it actually funds they have to give away 14% to Kickstarter.
If I knew I had a good product, I would not want to share that big a chunk for doing nothing other than host a web site for me.
Hey! my Kickstarter ban I think ended today!
Why do I feel like if I say anything other than sunshine and rainbows it will happen again?
Talizvar brings up a good point I forgot to include which is that the company/producer is paying a fee to Kickstarter for that success.
I think it's clever that certain companies like Northwind Miniatures do their own in-house Kickstarter. However you need a trusted business to do this and it's much more of a genuine pre-order than actual Kickstarter.
I think the only bad thing that is a result of the big push for Kickstarters by large companies is the growing expectation of freebies, unlocks, etc. There are a lot of small time manufacturers/producers who can't really do what Reaper Minis does and give you 250% of the product you paid for, etc. There is a large expectation of free stuff and unlocks, but I think most consumers are savvy enough to know whether the KS is a glorified pre-order (i.e. it's being done by Mantic or someone big) or a genuine KS-necessary project by a single sculptor or small game studio.
I considered a KS for my game and decided to not do it. The work/cost/etc. wasn't going to benefit me much and I didn't have the production capacity to add a ton of freebies in, etc.
I would like to see a KS "reputation" meter applied to companies, but they'd simply start each project under an alternate name or email so it wouldn't do anything for the end consumer. Palladium Books would have a 3% rating where CMON would have a 97% or something.
Elbows wrote: I think it's clever that certain companies like Northwind Miniatures do their own in-house Kickstarter. However you need a trusted business to do this and it's much more of a genuine pre-order than actual Kickstarter.
I think the only bad thing that is a result of the big push for Kickstarters by large companies is the growing expectation of freebies, unlocks, etc.
I think most consumers are savvy enough to know whether the KS is a glorified pre-order
I considered a KS for my game and decided to not do it. The work/cost/etc. wasn't going to benefit me much and I didn't have the production capacity to add a ton of freebies in, etc.
I would like to see a KS "reputation" meter applied to companies, but they'd simply start each project under an alternate name or email so it wouldn't do anything for the end consumer. Palladium Books would have a 3% rating where CMON would have a 97% or something.
Palladium internally crowdfund Rifts Northern Gun! And Lemuria!
Kevin wrote:The Rifts Northern Gun™ ONE Megaverse Insider crowdfunding is another resounding success. As of my writing of this Murmur, 349 gamers have "officially" participated in the Northern Gun™ ONE crowdfunding, totaling $26,915 in purchases. Wow. Thank you.
I wouldn't say that freebies are necessarily expected if that's not the business model. CMoN has a good idea of their minimum viable product, and a good history of funding, so they can have a pretty accurate cost / volume floor to work from. They also have an excellent handle on marginal cost and so forth, so they really can unlock those things when they go from $100k to $1M. If, however, you're looking at something more like MEdge, then that's where you are.
Legally, most AGs are going to be pretty clear that yes, a KS *is* a preorder under every applicable consumer law.
If your game works and you launch it without freebies, that's OK. Really. You aren't CMoN.
Palladium just tried that, "selling" the Rifts BG license to one of their employees... Fat lot of good it did.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Palladium internally crowdfund Rifts Northern Gun! And Lemuria!
Kevin wrote:The Rifts Northern Gun™ ONE Megaverse Insider crowdfunding is another resounding success. As of my writing of this Murmur, 349 gamers have "officially" participated in the Northern Gun™ ONE crowdfunding, totaling $26,915 in purchases. Wow. Thank you.
I wouldn't say that freebies are necessarily expected if that's not the business model. CMoN has a good idea of their minimum viable product, and a good history of funding, so they can have a pretty accurate cost / volume floor to work from. They also have an excellent handle on marginal cost and so forth, so they really can unlock those things when they go from $100k to $1M. If, however, you're looking at something more like MEdge, then that's where you are.
Legally, most AGs are going to be pretty clear that yes, a KS *is* a preorder under every applicable consumer law. *SNIP*
Legally, yes. In practice, we just haven't seen that. There's been what, two instances of an AG stepping in? When I ran into issues with another project, even having the creator's name and address didn't help (they were over a year without any communications, and refused to respond to contact). The state police directed me to the federal police, the federal police directed me to the state AG, and the state AG all but said "Meh, not worth it, you're better trying civil action". Even though I explicitly pointed out civil action from AU for less than $300US was REALLY not going to happen.
As to the quote, that seems pathetic that they possibly weren't able to fund, given the numbers he lists, that's $77.12 per backer, for a book that retails for $25MSRP. Sure, there might have been some multiple purchases in there, but given the actual production cost per book is much lower, that they bollocksed that campaign so badly, makes the assertion that they don't have any money, let alone not enough money to do it, for Wave 2, to be more than speculation.
Regarding Ctaylor's pool, my money is on PB dragging this out long enough that Kevin retires (if he's able), and everything collapses into a sinkhole. Simply put, there's not enough money in the future of the game to warrant spending the capital needed to produce and deliver Wave 2. Even if they HAD the money, it's simply better (for them) to just leave it than it is to spend more. The reality is, there's little real pressure, either legally or publicly (same people hating on, or supporting PB, with the majority of the gaming community ignoring) for PB to actually do anything. Even if the gRifts (stolen from Fleshharrower on RRTC) Boardgame is successful, there's simply not enough meat on the bone that is RRT for PB to get a real return on investment. At this point, any attempt by PB to "reboot" the game, is just futile act of throwing money away. Which sucks for backers.
The law is very clear. If some AG wanted to make a name for himself, he could step forward and utterly crush PB. Enforcement is the issue. And it costs money to enforce, as we all know.
As for NG1, it's not pathetic to Kevin - it's "another resounding success".
Pool-wise, I'm putting RRT Wave 2 sometime after Kevin is six feet under. That is, I think our only hope of seeing any Wave 2 is if Kevin gets hit by a bus and some responsible party picks up the reins, because no way Kevin does anything.
People ask for help with dumb gak all the time ('dumb' from any of our perspective, I'm sure many people sincerely ask for help with things they are actually quite passionate about).
Sometimes as a joke, sometimes it's sincere. Gakking on an elderly person's campaign like this doesn't seem terribly relevant or anything but mean spirited.
I don't think it's necessary to go trolling for 'lower' campaigns, my point stands that it's unnecessary to point and laugh in the first place.
This campaign deserves all the mockery and scorn we can lob its way.
Oh come on, that entire campaign content is a single piece of paper with crayon scribbles on it... Whether it's an old or a kid, it's a terrible campaign.
And wasn't the potato salad just a novelty charity fundraiser?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Oh come on, that entire campaign content is a single piece of paper with crayon scribbles on it... Whether it's an old or a kid, it's a terrible campaign.
And wasn't the potato salad just a novelty charity fundraiser?
A few of the comments have very helpfully asked that person to elaborate on their game/campaign.
According to a little Google'ing, the Potato Salad one started as a bit of a joke, but became a charitable thing once it blew up. It didn't start as a charity.
I dunno, the RRTKS is looking like charity disguised as a campaign.
I am sure PB is quite sincere in their belief that fan/friends would be more than happy to lend them support in their time of need... even if they did not see fit to let us know they were "donations" not pledges.
Yeah Forar, you are right: the negativity can start being nasty for nasty sake I have found for myself, nevermind others.
On a positive note: TerraForms is shipping their stuff and my order "is in the pile" according to the creator.
The Battletech HBSKS update I quite like for a "setback" update.
Rathcore Miniature Holders KS is shipping and people seem quite happy.
Savage Worlds Rifts is pretty much done and they even kicked in some nice free stuff to end on a positive note (I was only in for the $1, my RPG days unless on computer is behind me).
I even had some bad things happen with my Shapeways orders but their service group and the model creators have been awesome.
My consumer experience has been VERY good as of late, it contrasts so incredibly bad with Palladium.
So many companies understand that when things go bad, that is the time to do your best: we all make mistakes, it is how we deal with them that makes a company a leader or not.
Of course, gRifts BG gets both first acknowledgement, and more words, but let's see what we have...
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
It may have taken what feels like forever, but things are really starting to come together for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. All kinds of plans are beginning to gel in regard to product, promotion and organized play as we wait for feedback on new ideas and approaches to manufacturing.
I’m afraid we still do not have hard details to share just yet, but they are coming. And if things pan out the way we hope they will — wow. We are considering (and getting quotes for) several different levels of possibilities, and this is not just for RRT Wave Two, but for long-term plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ overall. Some of the smaller, short-term plans should start to manifest in the weeks ahead, while the bigger plans we hope to be able to offer soon.
I know some frustrated backers have decided that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two is never coming out. I understand their frustration, because we share it. What they may not seem to realize is that RRT is one of Palladium’s dreams. We are uber fans of Robotech® and our intention has always been to bring you Robotech® in a new, dynamic way with gorgeous game pieces and tactical combat rules. As the old saying goes, The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But WE have never given up on that dream and are doing our utmost to make it a bold reality. We’ve learned from our mistakes and are working hard to right the ship and deliver on our promises. An opportunity has arisen for us to make that happen in a big way and we are exploring it with all our might. Keep the faith! Wish us luck and hope that we can make this all happen. When we have the hard details, our Kickstarter backers will be the first to know about them.
TLDR on a para by para basis.
- Nebulous promises.
- No details.
- Haterz gonna hate, more promises, no details, dates or anything concrete. Bonus, a new unspecified "opportunity" has arisen! Wonder how much they can squeeze out of that.
I am seriously considering travelling to the US just to attend a convention Palladium will be at, for the sole purpose of very loudly telling Kevin exactly what I think of him.
I can be as vile as I please because I don't care if they kick me out.
Swabby wrote: "as we wait for feedback on new ideas and approaches to manufacturing."
This is BS of a supremely higher order. Who are we waiting on feedback from exactly?
A new supplier they had not got a quote from yet?
Since they probably asked for quotes from the same 3 suppliers for a couple years now.
That would constitute "new ideas and approaches to manufacturing."
"Keep the faith"?????? I went atheist for a while now.
The opportunity is to ride on the Rifts board game coattails for mold design and production time?
Bah.
Swabby wrote: "as we wait for feedback on new ideas and approaches to manufacturing."
This is BS of a supremely higher order. Who are we waiting on feedback from exactly?
I'm seriously wondering if they're talking to prodos. From what I've heard recently prodos has been pretty bad at getting other companies into their producton queue. I could see them stringing Kevin along with soon and maybes.
Stormonu wrote: My favorite part of that PBWU is the "RRT is one of Palladium's dreams"
Would that be a daydream or pipe dream?
We are all blessed with being given dreams with the possibility of them coming true by our efforts.
You may have to work for it however...
I remember this quote from somewhere.
Too bad Palladium continually tries to latch on to other people who have a similar dream and are willing to work for it.
Rather than a shared experience it becomes parasitic.
Well they are attending Adepticon in two weeks and will be demoing RTT - surely those little round demo tables are battered enough already - but guess what they will also be showing off the Rifts BG stuff = no affiliatin we are just good friends , honest guv.
Personally it is a no brainer but which one do you think Kevin and his cohorts wil spend the most time talking up?
Woe betide anyone who asks where are my Wave 2 models kev, it has only been three years now.......
This from a guy/company that not long prior to that said "we are an RPG company and have no interest in doing anything else" so I am not sure what fething dream the clown is mentioning because he and his company had been asked about mini games for YEARS before RRT was even a thought.
wilycoyote wrote: Well they are attending Adepticon in two weeks and will be demoing RTT - surely those little round demo tables are battered enough already - but guess what they will also be showing off the Rifts BG stuff = no affiliatin we are just good friends , honest guv.
Personally it is a no brainer but which one do you think Kevin and his cohorts wil spend the most time talking up?
Woe betide anyone who asks where are my Wave 2 models kev, it has only been three years now.......
Well, it won't be Kevin answering questions. He won't be going. He went to Coastcon a few weeks ago. And that and GenCon are his only planned outings this year. I guess if another small regional convention makes him a Guest of Honor, then he might reconsider.
So it'll probably be Wayne as Kevin's huckleberry, probably with either Chuck or NMI riding shotgun. So expect a terse non-answer, or deflections.
There's no mention of it on the Rogue Studios FB, so I'm not sure if there'll be any real focus on gRifts.
But the complete lack of any organized events, even a small one (note, the Adepticon website blows), shows that PB have no faith in organized play. Either they don't think they'd get even the smallest number, or they can't organize and MA or staff member to run it.
Speaking of organized events, the event submission deadline for GenCon is in two weeks. Wonder if there'll be anything more than the "sample scenarios" they've had volunteers run, this year. If they were truly intending to release Wave 2 this year, you think there'd be a push at GenCon for the reboot, given the free exposure. That they've run one official tournament at a real convention (no, POH doesn't count) in the three years after RRT was released, indicates how much they think of the game.
I dream too..of winning the lottery one day and making a high end gaming library / club with the money..
But also I don't think the "Reboot" of RTT will happen in 2017 either.. Where is the money going to come from for doing this?? They can not even produce large number of playing cards, so how can they afford plastic molds.
When Games Workshop train wrecked Warhammer; they listened to the community and continued to make adjusted releases to keep the game going.. Sure it lost players but they are getting them back.
There is only the Box set for Robotech tactics and the supporting models are just repacked ones from the main set. They have truly not tried to release anything for the game in over three years.. then wonder why no one plays it..
So..got a couple of pics from a friend who gets a Rifter Subscription...seems that PB is doing more than just talking up the Rifts BG in the weekly updates.......but helping flat out advertise it.
jaymz wrote: So..got a couple of pics from a friend who gets a Rifter Subscription...seems that PB is doing more than just talking up the Rifts BG in the weekly updates.......but helping flat out advertise it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is an email on the card....to get in on the early bird discount even if you miss the early bird time frame.
Why I' am not surprise by this. You get the feelin that PB is desperate that this Rift BG KS gets as much advertisement as possible . Its funning that RRT and SWR did not get any push like Rift BG KS is getting.
jaymz wrote: So..got a couple of pics from a friend who gets a Rifter Subscription...seems that PB is doing more than just talking up the Rifts BG in the weekly updates.......but helping flat out advertise it.
This was in the Rifter he just received:
http://www.worldofjaymz.ca/riftsbg1.jpg http://www.worldofjaymz.ca/riftsbg2.jpg Automatically Appended Next Post: There is an email on the card....to get in on the early bird discount even if you miss the early bird time frame.
What I find funny is in the picture they add "LLC" so prominently.
Their official name is "Rogue Heroes Publishing Inc. " in Canada, LLC is rather redundant: being incorporated automatically makes it it's own entity and not tied to the owner's personal finances.
Maybe I am overly sensitized, but PB's every action seems to scream to me "We shall not be held responsible or accountable! BTW: No refunds!!!!".
I really do not like how these clowns have coloured my views of the world.
Was there any effort by Kevin to advertise Savage Worlds Rifts? Honest question.
I got the impression that Kevin has been ominously silent in regards to Savage Rifts, not doing anything to promote it, and even being actively hostile towards it on his own forum for "Intellectual Property Protection reasons."
So, his promotion of the Rifts boardgame seems extremely suspect in contrast.
ced1106 wrote: Were the subscriptions packaged before Carmen's announcement on the RRT forums?
America slaps LLC all over the place in the oddest places.
Nope this would have been done the last week. The Rifter in question was his subscription delivery.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GabrielV wrote: Was there any effort by Kevin to advertise Savage Worlds Rifts? Honest question.
I got the impression that Kevin has been ominously silent in regards to Savage Rifts, not doing anything to promote it, and even being actively hostile towards it on his own forum for "Intellectual Property Protection reasons."
So, his promotion of the Rifts boardgame seems extremely suspect in contrast.
Nope at most they had a smal blurb during the is campaign on the weekly updates but nothing more. Not even a sub forum for it but the rifts big got one almost instantly.
jaymz wrote: So..got a couple of pics from a friend who gets a Rifter Subscription...seems that PB is doing more than just talking up the Rifts BG in the weekly updates.......but helping flat out advertise it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is an email on the card....to get in on the early bird discount even if you miss the early bird time frame.
Interesting...surely the flyers had to be paid for and printed before things went downhill, I wonder if they were bagged before the incident with Carmen and Uncle Kev didn't want to waste the money opening the baggies and removing the flyers. So I guess the KS is still going forward as planned....
Oh well, I just spent the evening looking over 7th Sea second edition and take delight in the fact that its KS made nearly as much as the RRTKS, compared to SW Rifts of $400K or so. For a RPG line that has been dead for over 10 years. I can imagine that without the SW name, the Rifts KS would have made maybe 1/10th of what it did. I'd be surprised if the Rifts boardgame breaks $50K, and if it makes $100K or more, I can only shake my head at the foolishness of people ... And start my own KS for the handful of board games my brother and I have been puttering about with.
Stormonu wrote: Interesting...surely the flyers had to be paid for and printed before things went downhill, I wonder if they were bagged before the incident with Carmen and Uncle Kev didn't want to waste the money opening the baggies and removing the flyers. So I guess the KS is still going forward as planned....
Almost. There was an initial attempt at a flier image released on February 16th. An image here, advertising March or April. But it looks nothing like what Jaymz showed us, even though all three appear to use the exact same six digital sculpts, in the exact same orientations.
We do know that at least something has changed. The most recent plan was to have the Kickstarter launch in late March, early April (Carmen) or Mid to Late April (Kevin), both on Feb 16th. Can't find the source on Carmen, I think it was an FB post since deleted.
The incident happened a day later. That the current flier say April-May, indicates that at least that got late changed. So at the very least, the cards weren't printed prior, even if the plans to do so were already in motion.
n815e wrote: Perhaps Kevin is hoping that Carmen's success means Carmen will take this albatross from PB.
I've gotten every impression that Carmen is a thin-skinned dick (you know, like his idol) but I didn't think he was also an idiot. Which is what he'd have to be do that.
n815e wrote: Perhaps Kevin is hoping that Carmen's success means Carmen will take this albatross from PB.
I've gotten every impression that Carmen is a thin-skinned dick (you know, like his idol) but I didn't think he was also an idiot. Which is what he'd have to be do that.
From the comments by him in the Kickstarter and prior dealings I have read or a very brief talk with him at a convention: he is rather reactionary and takes himself pretty seriously, so it makes for rather intense interactions.
Taking the suicide attempt at face value, I really cannot see this ending well with the various stressors especially with Kevin's meddling.
I agree it is probably less taking the albatross but jumping on the wagon where I think he is banking on a free pass (use as shield) due to sympathy for Carmen.
The two are going to be quite tied together and intelligence does not factor in: if you have a controlling narcissist in a position of power you either walk away or are stuck with what he decides (believe me, they love the game of getting their way). Again, stressors that I anticipate getting worse with time.
It is probably inside voice that should not be out loud but I really want to take up a collection for Carmen's wife.
<edit> On-topic, this "distraction" will easily be enough of an excuse for Kevin to drop RRT updates any time he feels like it.
n815e wrote: Perhaps Kevin is hoping that Carmen's success means Carmen will take this albatross from PB.
I've gotten every impression that Carmen is a thin-skinned dick (you know, like his idol) but I didn't think he was also an idiot. Which is what he'd have to be do that.
From the comments by him in the Kickstarter and prior dealings I have read or a very brief talk with him at a convention: he is rather reactionary and takes himself pretty seriously, so it makes for rather intense interactions.
Taking the suicide attempt at face value, I really cannot see this ending well with the various stressors especially with Kevin's meddling.
I agree it is probably less taking the albatross but jumping on the wagon where I think he is banking on a free pass (use as shield) due to sympathy for Carmen.
I think the albatross Meri is referring to is RRT, and not "blame and criticism".
I tend to agree with Meri that Kevin would like to unload the whole remainder of things onto "Rogue Heroes LLC" and go back to just having to deal with RPG's and forget RRT like it was some bad dream.
Of course, that does bring into play certain legal technicalities with regards debts owed, but it wouldn't surprise me if gRifts is successful, Kevin considers selling the license and all assets to RRT to Rogue Heroes, and trying to argue that it's now their responsibility, along with all obligations. I don't know how that'd hold up in court, but given legal action seems to be very much a hard ask at this point, it'd be a curious point. Even if it's legally untenable, given what we know of the man, I wouldn't put it past Kevin to try.
Even without the clusterfeth that'd be, it'd not be unexpected to license Rogue Heroes to do Gens 2 and 3. Allowing a new company to do the product runs PB themselves aren't capable of doing, while Wave 2 sits on the balance sheet.
Stormonu wrote: So I guess the KS is still going forward as planned....
Well, just because you advertise a KS project to happen on such-and-such a day, doesn't obligate you to actually run it.
If two hours on the RRTKS comments means a suicide attempt, he's not going to make it through an actual KS.
Is there a term for Carmen's relationship with Kevin, as well as Carmen and Kevin's individual behavior?
fwiw, If you're a regular backer of KS projects, search on "optimists entrepreneurship" to get a better idea of how these people behave, even intelligent ones.
n815e wrote: Perhaps Kevin is hoping that Carmen's success means Carmen will take this albatross from PB.
I've gotten every impression that Carmen is a thin-skinned dick (you know, like his idol) but I didn't think he was also an idiot. Which is what he'd have to be do that.
From the comments by him in the Kickstarter and prior dealings I have read or a very brief talk with him at a convention: he is rather reactionary and takes himself pretty seriously, so it makes for rather intense interactions.
Taking the suicide attempt at face value, I really cannot see this ending well with the various stressors especially with Kevin's meddling.
I agree it is probably less taking the albatross but jumping on the wagon where I think he is banking on a free pass (use as shield) due to sympathy for Carmen.
I think the albatross Meri is referring to is RRT, and not "blame and criticism".
I tend to agree with Meri that Kevin would like to unload the whole remainder of things onto "Rogue Heroes LLC" and go back to just having to deal with RPG's and forget RRT like it was some bad dream.
Correct. Even for a narcissist and a follower, I still don't see the conversation "Wow, Carmen, we had such a successful project with gRifts gBoard gGame, now I want you to take over this project with a good million in obligations and zero funding to make it happen!" going the way Kevin would like it to.
Palladium Books at AdeptiCon 2017 bring's the fast-paced action of Robotech® anime to your tabletop. Play small squad skirmishes with as few as two Veritechs (or Destroids) and six Zentraedi Battlepods, or scale up to massive battles.
With plans for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, organized play and more great RRT products to come, now is the time to get started with the main box game or available expansion packs, assemble some models, and start playing! Also available: Robotech® RPG books and select other Palladium titles.
Come to the Palladium booth #23 for a special convention discount, try a demo, and learn more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ or visit www.palladiumbooks.com for details on all the games.
Also, learn about the Rifts® Board Game coming from Rogue Heroes Publishing. Its Kickstarter will run from April through May. Become an early bird backer with a special card at the booth.
Why? For all that is holy, why do they not paint their stuff?
They probably got them printed at Shapeways and cannot figure out how to avoid the "furry" look of their WSF (white, strong & flexible).
I can understand for the wave 1 box to show the models unpainted: to show what you actually get.
The Wave2 3D prints you might as well paint them because they are unimpressive otherwise.
The broken arm sitting there is... just, there are no words.
Nothing says "We are oh so committed!!!!" than broken product on display.
A little dab of crazy glue is too much?
Why am I still surprised by their completely amateurish and uncaring way of doing things?
For a "mature" business being around for decades, I just cannot think of anyone not finding work: if these guys can stay employed, anyone can.
"The lack of paint jobs is symbolic of the fact that Kevin can't afford to pay for paint jobs because of the Crisis Of Treachery(tm). They're a reflection of the empty spots on his mom's fridge"
Alpharius wrote: Didn't Kevin break his arm in the last 3 to 5 years or so?
Could this be some cryptic shout out to that?!?
Unsure, when I saw him his arm was in a sling but no cast.
We at least have documented proof that the model is made of two pieces which is a good reduced part count demonstration.
Elbows wrote: What a pathetic image to attempt to promote your product...
Not really.. this is true to Palladium style.. Everything starts at the top..
Can you imagine being hired as a media /public relations manager for them...
Living nightmare..
But just look at the crazy turn around of Games Workshop after the new CEO took over..hint hint..
Looked at this pic and something was not quite right and then I twigged.
The monster 3d sculpt was shown off a few years back at Adepticon - possibly just prior to the KS launch or if not the year after. As was the FPA for mirya and max in disguise. The other new models include the armoured Valk,YB-4 and SDf-1 they put into an update a few months back while the MPA etc are convention pieces. The only new piece appears to be the FPA with special weapons
So in effect I belive you are seeing the full extent of where Palladium are up to as regards approved test models foe the missing items. So no Lancers, Gnelrls, Khyron etc
Given they are willing to post this to Adepticon why can't they post the same to the KS updates or Iam I jumping the gun on this weeks PBWU
They're not posting it to the KS because they'd get torn down quickly because we've seen ALL of the models shown already (including a painted super in guardian not shown above). Hell, the barrels on the MAC are still warped which we saw back before the KS campagn ended!
And I missed it before, but I can't believe the SDF-1 model is only as tall as a veritech!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and they also didn't bother to show the multipart Glaug-Eldaire they printed out in Dec after(?) Wave 1 was finished. HWere is that?
cannonfodr wrote: The alternate kit FPA was shown waaay back before Wave 1 I think so nothing new at all.
What happened to all the stuff painted by Blue Table? In addition to unpainted and broken models, the basing seems pretty inconsistent as well.
Speaking of painted, I'd be curious to know if PB followed through on their three Bursting Point Pledge Levels. You'ld think completing those would be noteworthy. And getting most of a $10K balance off their books
If they're getting held up because of the lack of a f'n Rick Hunter, I'd be f'n furious.
That PB haven't mentioned it, and I've seen noone come out and say they've received one, let alone whether they're happy or unhappy with the paintjob (and at just under $100 per miniature, I'd be expecting quality), doesn't really surprise me. But still...
The only thing this tells people is that they could care less. I don't know why they even bother schlepping it all out to conventions, anymore. They can't be selling all that many there or garnering much interest, either.
Actually, that's likely to be their demo/ con kit. The painted stuff looks to be for demos, the unpainted stuff likely would be a display for "this is what you get".
So unpainted is acceptable. Not acceptable is not even having enough stuff done for a promo shoot. Clearly out of their depths in this industry.
Lynx7725 wrote: Actually, that's likely to be their demo/ con kit. The painted stuff looks to be for demos, the unpainted stuff likely would be a display for "this is what you get".
So unpainted is acceptable. Not acceptable is not even having enough stuff done for a promo shoot. Clearly out of their depths in this industry.
Hah! I'd like to go up to their demo table and say "Hey, I'd like to play the Warhammer, please!"
The painted models in the top section - those are the GQ metals, right? Who painted them GQ or Blue Table? They do look nice.
Huh - just noticed another missing figure - the Spartan/Gladiator. Guess they didn't want to show off the gaps in the models.
"I personally feel that Palladium has never done a classic cyberpunk game, not even Rifts®. However, today, the term "cyberpunk" seems to connote any RPG that includes cybernetics, mechanical implants/augmentation, and/or bionics. If that is true, then Palladium published the FIRST cyberpunk RPG back in 1984!!! And depending on how one looks at it, 1981 with The Mechanoid Invasion®."
*cringe*
Automatically Appended Next Post: "All good things must come to an end. Ironically, going mainstream killed the Ninja Turtles in the comic book and role-playing market. The Turtles were “kiddified” and turned into toys and cartoons for little kids. Consequently, few self-respecting teenagers oradults could look at the Turtles as anything other than Mickey Mouse’s reptilian cousin, and stopped playing and buying."
This literally makes me rage. I seriously can't stand this guy. What a bunch of pretentious BS
I hate to correct this but, he is claiming they were the first to make the "one system" (tmtmtmtmtm) so you have one game system for fantasy or science fiction or whatever.
I am not so sure about that.
Wiki gives a blerb about the "megaversal system" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaversal_system They rightly point out that the "universal" has a fair bit of customization.
Interesting note here:
First published in July 1983 as The Palladium Role-Playing Game, the Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game saw a second edition in April 1996. The two are largely compatible, though the second edition uses a later iteration of Palladium's ruleset to be more compatible with the rest of their Megaverse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_Fantasy_Role-Playing_Game
I would say that "Worlds of Wonder" (1982) presented three worlds of adventure: fantasy, science fiction, and super hero and fleshed all that out before megaversal was a gleam in Kevin's eye. (Lies I tell you!).
Failing that, The Fantasy Trip (TFT) (Published 1977 with various updates up to 1980) that later got updated to GURPS could be the next to contest that statement.
I was a bit of a nut for all things cyberpunk way back when.
I "think" I have every last supplement for Cyberpunk 2013/2020 (not the insane amount of magazine add-ons however).
What was particularly great was sourcebooks they made of leading CP books of the time:
- When Gravity Fails and Hard Wired.
Anyway... on-topic... Robotech RPG Tactics, no, nothing going on at the Kickstarter.
Wait for the non-update coming in the next day or so?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n815e wrote: It's sort of telling that HG doesn't sell RRT on the Robotech webstore.
Palladium would charge them a $40 shipping fee... each.
Talizvar wrote: Anyway... on-topic... Robotech RPG Tactics, no, nothing going on at the Kickstarter. Wait for the non-update coming in the next day or so?
Robotech Relevant Section wrote:UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
Robotech®/Robotech® RPG Tactics™ dominates most of our conversations these days as we are busy working on all aspects of the relaunch.
That's it. That's all he wrote. I swear he's trolling at this point.
There's significant news, details and dates for the gRifts game, but that's all the RRT related news. Including the following excerpt from the Adepticon section.
"Also stop by the Palladium Books booth at AdeptiCon to get the latest news and a special promotion for the Rifts® Board Game. Carmen Bellaire cannot make AdeptiCon this year as he had intended, so we will be representing both Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and the Rifts® Board Game coming from Rogue Heroes Publishing. (Anything to help our friend, Carmen and his dedicated crew of creators.) Thank you."
Yeahhhh, totally a separate company. Just helping out a friend. My question would be, "Why isn't another member of the 'dedicated crew of creators' coming to do that themselves?". Even if we excuse Carmen's absence, is there literally noone more qualified to advertise gRifts than Wayne, who is totally NOT part of Rogue Heroes? No sculptor, or editor or game designer or playtest coordinator, that could do it better than an employee of a company that is totally NOT involved with the game. Kevin, please.
In other news, with two weeks to go in March, he's still promising 2 books by the end of March. And another 2 by May. And a 5th by June. Yeah, good luck with that, Kevin.
EDIT : There's a section in Kevin's time at CoastCon. "Another fun event was being part of the Would I lie to you? panel/game/exhibition.". The answer, not given in the PBWU, is FETHING OBVIOUSLY!
Seriously, I can't even wrap my head around this. If Kevin WAS trying to be a subtle troll, would he have written anything any differently?
RE-EDIT : That last thing regarding CoastCon is actually from LAST week's PBWU. I was comparing last week to this week for the book scheduling, and didn't realize. Didn't notice it last week, as reading through a PBWU is just soul crushingly painful.
Palladium Books at AdeptiCon 2017 bring's the fast-paced action of Robotech® anime to your tabletop. Play small squad skirmishes with as few as two Veritechs (or Destroids) and six Zentraedi Battlepods, or scale up to massive battles.
With plans for the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, organized play and more great RRT products to come, now is the time to get started with the main box game or available expansion packs, assemble some models, and start playing! Also available: Robotech® RPG books and select other Palladium titles.
Come to the Palladium booth #23 for a special convention discount, try a demo, and learn more about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ or visit www.palladiumbooks.com for details on all the games.
Also, learn about the Rifts® Board Game coming from Rogue Heroes Publishing. Its Kickstarter will run from April through May. Become an early bird backer with a special card at the booth.
Just noticed the still-unfinished resin SDF-1 in the back.
Still.
Unfinished.
3 years later.
They're almost as bad as I am, except no one's paying $1 million+.
Anyone else notice in the PBWU that Kevin is actually involved in approval for the rules of the Rifts BG not just model sculpts and fluff writing? That really smacks of something a licensor generally does not get approvals on as it is not their rules but the licensees rules.
I hate to correct this but, he is claiming they were the first to make the "one system" (tmtmtmtmtm) so you have one game system for fantasy or science fiction or whatever.
I am not so sure about that.
Wiki gives a blerb about the "megaversal system" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaversal_system They rightly point out that the "universal" has a fair bit of customization.
Interesting note here:
First published in July 1983 as The Palladium Role-Playing Game, the Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game saw a second edition in April 1996. The two are largely compatible, though the second edition uses a later iteration of Palladium's ruleset to be more compatible with the rest of their Megaverse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_Fantasy_Role-Playing_Game
I would say that "Worlds of Wonder" (1982) presented three worlds of adventure: fantasy, science fiction, and super hero and fleshed all that out before megaversal was a gleam in Kevin's eye. (Lies I tell you!).
Failing that, The Fantasy Trip (TFT) (Published 1977 with various updates up to 1980) that later got updated to GURPS could be the next to contest that statement.
I was a bit of a nut for all things cyberpunk way back when.
I "think" I have every last supplement for Cyberpunk 2013/2020 (not the insane amount of magazine add-ons however).
What was particularly great was sourcebooks they made of leading CP books of the time:
- When Gravity Fails and Hard Wired.
Anyway... on-topic... Robotech RPG Tactics, no, nothing going on at the Kickstarter.
Wait for the non-update coming in the next day or so?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n815e wrote: It's sort of telling that HG doesn't sell RRT on the Robotech webstore.
Palladium would charge them a $40 shipping fee... each.
I would say look up GURPS, and before that ICE, wasn't the d20 system in the late 90's? No, Pallidum is not even close to the first company to make generic rules for multiple genres.
Nah, d20 system came about with D&D 3E, so around '99.
Besides, I wouldn't count the "Megaversal" system a real universal system like GURPS, Amazing Engine, Alternity or Savage Worlds. Otherwise, the FASERIP TSR engine, ICE's ROlemaster/Space Master, Chaosium's rules and others would have to be included, and there's several of those that would beat PB's by years.
The "Megaversal" is still tied to very specific game worlds, which happen to share an underlying game engine - it's not designed or marketed to handle generic worlds. (For example, a space-based sci-fi game, or a modern era mundane setting)
I could have sworn I said "Worlds of Wonder (1982)" which Chaosium was the publisher.
Anyway: Kevin claiming to fame that history refutes: you do not lie like a boss my friend.
^That is why it is called megaversal not universal.....eachsetting is slightly different from every other. Mind you even the individual settings are inconsistent between printings of the main rule book for said setting.
I wish i were kidding. Many arguments on the official PB forums are between people using different printings of the same rule book because Palladium in its infinite wisdom never bother to put out official errata or corrections when new printings come out in regards to any changes made.
Morgan Vening wrote: Carmen Bellaire cannot make AdeptiCon this year as he had intended
Now, *there's* an understatement. If Carmen can't survive two hours on the RRT comments page, is he really going to make it through a KS???
Well, if the guy is so emotionally fragile and mentally unhealthy, maybe Kevin will give him his license fee back, and he can just do something that won't be so awful for him.
I think Kevin realizes that the most attention he got in years was a game with miniatures, so "RBG" might give him the fix he needs.
Not sure how a game he is supposed to have nothing to do with, is getting so much of his attention.
It is being treated a whole different animal than SW:R.
I was hoping Carmen could get Kev to back off, because the more involved PB is, the less "help" I want to give the project which may go into actively working against it.
It appears PB has more at stake than some licensing flat fee.
Or it could be Kev being the glory hound he is, just sniffing around for more attention.
Either way, giving a bloody nose is tempting.
As i said above......I get the need for a licensor to have approval power over mini sculpts or even fluff text (it is the licensors IP after all)....I have never heard of a licensor having approval rights over another company's game rules.
Well I think Mr.Ken Cook got sent to wood shed on PB facebook because all of his post are gone. I 'll say he very foul mouth about it and his uncle Kev is best RPG writer ever. I like to know what HG thinks about all this because if it was the other way around I don't think Kev would be happy at all about whats going on with IP. Hey guys do you think Kev took full control of Rift BG KS. I 'm getting a feelin he did.
Talizvar wrote: I was hoping Carmen could get Kev to back off, because the more involved PB is, the less "help" I want to give the project which may go into actively working against it.
Carmen's pretty much "attached to the hip" of Kevin. He did design an Upper Deck game, but do we have any other evidence of him on his own, much less proof that he's able to manage a KS project?
Closest info I read is that Carmen's game is going to be a sf dungeoncrawler, similar to Descent. If that's the game, I'd just take any sf dungeoncrawler game system and adapt it to Rifts. Heck, you should be able to use the Rifts Savage Worlds game system to play a miniatures game.
Palladium Games is attending Adepticon to get a pulse of the communities feeling for Robotech Tactics..
Kevin says its doing great but the sales numbers don't match and they are trying to figure out why...
Only if they've run out of tracing paper (and a library copy of a Gundam book) or can't find Kevin's refrigerator art again.
As for HG, as long as they get at least a wooden nickel from PB, it doesn't look like they'll give up what equates to free money (I mean, its not like its IP they created anyways, so why should they care if its reputation gets ruined?). Who else are they going to license it to anyways - FASA?
I had the same question about the artist.. The google search I did came up with a YouTube video of
Cameron interviewing Mike at some Palladium game day event..
You would think they would talk about the art process.. software he uses.. the theme of the art..etc..
Nope... It was a long discussion about how they are dealing with personal autism problems
and learning disabilities..
Genoside07 wrote: I had the same question about the artist.. The google search I did came up with a YouTube video of
Cameron interviewing Mike at some Palladium game day event..
You would think they would talk about the art process.. software he uses.. the theme of the art..etc..
Nope... It was a long discussion about how they are dealing with personal autism problems
and learning disabilities..
Wait ... Wuh?
Not to knock on any one with those issues (my wife has a learning disability, youngest son is bordeline autistic), but you'r going to have to link to that video. That's just bizarre to hear.
Uh, yeah - that was interesting. I usually hate watching podcasts but I gotta say, if we had gotten a regular sit-down video with the PB folks talking like that one, I'd probably be more chill with this whole situation.
But yeah, Carmen claiming he has no ties to PB is utter bullgak. He mentioned having to fight with dyxlexia, and I can guess who he's going to get to be editor for his game...
(Also, gotta give props to the big, silent guy standing in the background of that vid ).
Yeah, but that weekly rag doesn't come across with a tenth of the personality that video had (which didn't really provide any information about Mike's art & process - you're just assumed to be familiar with it).
In the end, we'd still be in the same state as we are now, I just wouldn't feel so repulsed by Kevin's 'slimy businessman' writing style. I'm sure Kevin comes off a lot more personable in person, even if his actual business practices are atrocious - if you see what I'm getting at.
Aaaanyways, still no news on 'advancement' on RRT, and likely to never be at this point.
Aaaanyways, still no news on 'advancement' on RRT, and likely to never be at this point.
Didn't they slate it for the second half of 2017? You know just in time for con season and X-mas and Chinese New Year and all those other convenient excuses?
Aaaanyways, still no news on 'advancement' on RRT, and likely to never be at this point.
Didn't they slate it for the second half of 2017? You know just in time for con season and X-mas and Chinese New Year and all those other convenient excuses?
I hope you're being sarcastic. HG has a better chance of finishing the animated Sentinels cartoon before this thing delivers.
Aaaanyways, still no news on 'advancement' on RRT, and likely to never be at this point.
Didn't they slate it for the second half of 2017? You know just in time for con season and X-mas and Chinese New Year and all those other convenient excuses?
I hope you're being sarcastic. HG has a better chance of finishing the animated Sentinels cartoon before this thing delivers.
I think ScarletRose is referencing Kevin writing in the PBWU's that the Robotech Wave 2 is listed in the "Coming Later in 2017 and 2018" section, rather than the "Coming Soon 2017". And has been since the Feb 3rd PBWU. The convenient excuses bit seems to come from the last Kickstarter Update, where Kevin complains that the "congested pipeline for quotes" runs from October through February.
If they put RRT onto the backburner until the second half of 2017, that means they only have about 3 months before there's a convenient 5 month excuse to not do diddly squat.
Personally, I don't think Kevin needs an excuse. He seems pretty comfortable just lying about "working on it", "not far from our thoughts" and "news to report soon!" (that never happens), among other completely transparent platitudes that he doesn't need an actual excuse, even if it IS utter bs (CNY is a month, six weeks at the extreme (to account for rush jobs, and companies that'll pay a premium, etc).
The way Kevin acts Chinese New Year; the whole country of China shuts down for the month.
I traveled there and have family living in Hong Kong; they are lucky to get two days off for the
Holiday just like most people here at Christmas time.
But I agree.. No laws against what he is doing and Kickstarter has already got their money so no problem.
The only real back lash is what we already seen with Cameron trying to start a new Kickstarter and at the
end it just not investing your money with a company known for inaction..
Genoside07 wrote: The way Kevin acts Chinese New Year; the whole country of China shuts down for the month.
I traveled there and have family living in Hong Kong; they are lucky to get two days off for the Holiday just like most people here at Christmas time.
No laws against what he is doing
The only real back lash is what we already seen with Cameron trying to start a new Kickstarter and at the end it just not investing your money with a company known for inaction..
Most people get the week off for CNY, which nets out to be the same as most people in the US over the Xmas-NY break.
Actually they are, the issue is that those laws aren't being enforced. There's a difference between breaking the law, and enforcing the law (and collecting on a judgement). But make no mistake that Kevin has broken the contract, and broken a number of consumer protection laws - in the eyes of the law, Kickstarter *is* a store.
And deservedly so. If Kevin weren't such a scumbag, he'd actually take responsibility for Carmen's blood.
The way Kevin acts Chinese New Year; the whole country of China shuts down for the month.
I traveled there and have family living in Hong Kong; they are lucky to get two days off for the
Holiday just like most people here at Christmas time.
But I agree.. No laws against what he is doing and Kickstarter has already got their money so no problem.
The only real back lash is what we already seen with Cameron trying to start a new Kickstarter and at the
end it just not investing your money with a company known for inaction..
I produce in China. Most of the migrant workers, and by that I mean the workers who travelled from their hometown to the factory, will have 2-3 weeks off just to go back and spend it with their family. This isn't a new phenomenon. You can ask anyone who produces in China, it's not really something you can 'see' just from visiting non-factories.
AdeptiCon wants to give a shout out for Palladium Books, Rifts® Board Game Kickstarter – April/May 2017 – By Rogue Heroes Publishing, produced under license from Palladium Books.
A game of combat and skill, 2-6 players undertaking heroic missions against Coalition forces in the Chi-Town ‘Burbs. Play the Cyber-Knight, Juicer Assassin, Cyborg, the magical Ley Line Walker, or one of several other iconic Rifts® heroes.
Select from two distinct styles of gameplay:
A campaign style game where the Mission Director puts your heroes in the middle of a Coalition purge that pits you against the might of the CS Army.
Or a head to head skirmish game in which the players pit their handpicked squad against the elite force chosen by their opponent, to achieve a host of objectives set in a variety of mission locations throughout the ‘Burbs.
Comes with detailed 32mm miniatures of your favorite iconic Rifts® characters, rulebook, character cards, ability and weapon cards, and more. Played on a double-sided, full-color, 24x30 inch combat map (laid out in a standard one-inch grid and compatible with similar grid maps). Bring Rifts® to life as a fast, fun miniature game – typical game is 60-120 minutes – and use the miniatures in your RPG. Check out this and more at Palladium Books booth #23 or at www.palladiumbooks.com.
I got the same thing in my feed.. again Palladium games is a separate company. So don't think this will end just like Robotech Tactics; that honestly will be coming soon is what Kevin keeps saying..
And I am not a professional artist, but that ad just feels unfinished to me. Like someone used a trial copy of photoshop slapped a few things on a page and said.. that's good enough.
The only art there that isn't terrible was paid for decades ago..
But you can tell it's a PB product.TMs everywhere!
And part of the reason it looks so assed is because they have mediocre 3D models on a 2D board, but didn't bother putting the models in actual grid squares.
I do find it a bit PB-ish that they're charging more than three times what Chessex do for 16mm opaques ($12 for 12, vs $3.85 for 12). Can't remember the rates Mike got for doing his Malcontent dice, but even with the customized facing, that seems kinda pricey given the bulk they were doing it in (12 dice x 17000 cores = 200,000 of each).
Basically, if you get a set of each dice ($12x2), the template/token pack ($15), and the rulebook ($20), at $59+shipping, you're arguably paying as much as a CSI core box (currently listed at $66). I can understand there's a multiplier factor (selling grouped is better value than selling separate, but still..). That's like charging almost as much for 4 tyres as you would for the car.
It would appear that the gRifts BG, is based around mangaing a hand of cards that are tied to specific characters/minions. IN addition to your set actions , these cards are also used for wounds inflicted on you. At least that is what I picked up from the brief overview Carmen posted on their site.
So far nothing gob smacking or original, the mapboards do look like they need a lot of work - they are functional and would have looked alright twenty years ago. The renders so far look nice and if the production models are are good this would be a plus, especially for the rpgers.
The one thing I cannot get my head around is that aparrt from the models and their artwork this could be any generic "map with dudes" games, it ceratinaly does not scream Rifts.
I still believe the Rifts rpg diehards will carry this over the line, but beyond the Kickstarter I cannot see it making a big commercial splash and so would seem to leave Carmen's fledging company struggling for funds - especially if kevin is taking his cut - if it wants to do more, unless its business plan it to continue to use Kickstarter to finance its ideas.
Never fear though their big brother is going to push this hard, or at least they will till it starts to falter, then PB can go back to discussing RTT at every moment, while sitting about doing nothing about it.
wilycoyote wrote: It would appear that the gRifts BG, is based around mangaing a hand of cards that are tied to specific characters/minions.
Sounds like an interesting mechanic, although early card combat games weren't well-received because players felt that they were restrictive.
I think if Rogue / Palladium can get anything out the door (and Carmen doesn't fall apart from stress), it would be a win. Gamers still think KS is a store, so I'll see how much popcorn is left if it funds.
The only thing Palladium has even been efficient at getting out the door was Cease and Desist letters to their biggest fans so Palladium fan web presence has always been absolutely minimal.
TwoGunBob wrote: The only thing Palladium has even been efficient at getting out the door was Cease and Desist letters to their biggest fans so Palladium fan web presence has always been absolutely minimal.
wilycoyote wrote: It would appear that the gRifts BG, is based around mangaing a hand of cards that are tied to specific characters/minions. IN addition to your set actions , these cards are also used for wounds inflicted on you. At least that is what I picked up from the brief overview Carmen posted on their site.
Reminds me of the old gears of war boardgame from FFG. IIRC, each character had cards in hand that represented actions he could play and ALSO his total life. Everytime he took a wound, he would discard a card. If he couldn't, he died.
End result....the game is nothing "new" or "different" from anythign already on the market yet Carmen is touted as a "board game guru/genius" who has only one product "done" but not yet to market via Upper Deck.
jaymz wrote: End result....the game is nothing "new" or "different" from anythign already on the market yet Carmen is touted as a "board game guru/genius" who has only one product "done" but not yet to market via Upper Deck.
You have to consider the audience. To the typical fan-friend, it "redefines" the "guys on a board" genre. Just like how PB brought anime to the US, was the first "universal" system and was the first cyberpunk game.
Ok. Now that the snickering and laughter is done (seriously, try saying the above keeping a straight face), we all know all those other rules are "rubbish" so Carmen as taken time to rewrite them. After all, PB true fans want more than a basic melee attack, they want to be able to punch, kick, jump kick, body block and power punch just like in Rifts(tm). Besides, someone has to go do a search and replace of all the setting specific terms in whatever system served as the base and with Rifts(tm) specific terms, including all the trademarks, copyrights etc. All that takes a lot of work given the level of computer literacy demonstrated by PB so understandably Carmen has to take credit for all of that work. I'm surprised Kevin hasn't felt the need to make his own rewrites so he can get get credited as the author.
I'll fall off my stool if Kevin isn't in charge within a month of the kickfalter funding. Assuming it funds, as the only way it will make it is if they shoot for a really tiny funding goal. I fully expect.
gRIFTS (TM) CO LLC. boardgame presented by
KEVIN SIEMBIEDA
with minor assistance by some guy who was his name again? Chameleon?
A PALLADIUM PRODUCT!!!!!
in minor association with Deceiver Sandwiches LLC
Specials thanks to all the backers that believed in my KEVIN!!! LET'S gRIFT IT UP!!!!!!!
Prep and plans for Robotech®/Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product have been ongoing, with good stuff in development. We have just added several Robotech® RPG Tactics™ gaming events at Gen Con, including a couple of big tournaments (with awards to players)."
Swabby wrote: "UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
Prep and plans for Robotech®/Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product have been ongoing, with good stuff in development. We have just added several Robotech® RPG Tactics™ gaming events at Gen Con, including a couple of big tournaments (with awards to players)."
lol
That's something to keep an eye on. Couple means at least two. Big should mean at least 20 players (the max number of players at each of their previous official tournaments).
Be interesting if they get a better attendance than the last two. I believe it was 9 and 11?
I see they're having a week long sale, retroactively starting yesterday. 30% off all RRT. Or.... paying base rate for CSI, plus shipping.
There's a "giant demo game" at SIMCON in New York next weekend, that explicitly mentions having power armor and a Monster. Wonder what the Palladium attitude is to people infringing on their trademarks to fan-build stuff. IIRC they usually weren't too down with that.
Still promising 4 books by the end of May. Added a sixth book to EoSummer.
Also, for the first time in a while, the number of words for RRT exceeds the number of words for gRifts. But still, nothing of any relevance, as Swabby mentions.
I was initially curious why the PBWU went up early, as Kevin isn't going to Adepticon. Then I realized with Wayne going out of the office, he doesn't have anyone to show him how to upload the httpthingamy onto the interwebs.
With it being the 50th anniversary of Gen Con I would think this year will be crazy crowded.. More than
we seen before.. but I would be interested in seeing what Palladium games ends up with.. They will
always have their die hard fans.. but the numbers keep going down..
On top of that.. By August if they do not have details locked in by then.. there is no ship in 2017 and
everyone knows it.
There will be no shipping in 2017, I believe someone (Forar?) already worked out that it took them 9 months to go from wave 1 manufacturing start to the beginning of shipping
9 months from now, Kevin will be in his Santa jammies, happy about getting rid of damaged books via surprise packages and dreading the January update -- in which he will promise that 2018 is THE year of Robotech. He's got big plans, he's just waiting on some quotes.
I think we have had more entertainment from the mess than we would have had if we had wave one and two already in hand and if they had been done right in the first place.
Personally,, I'd take product over entertainment, but to each their own....
Funny thing is, I had to recently pack up my game room for a remodel, and I'm planning on a serious culling of what goes back in (90+ banker boxes of roleplaying books alone look like they will be culled to less than 20). I'm expecting most of my books won't be returning, but I'm trying to keep onto all my miniatures - even the RRT ones. I don't know why; something in me doesn't want me to get rid of them because I don't have Wave 2, even though I know I'll never see Wave 2. Oh, well - they're still usable for Battletech and such.
Mike1975 wrote: I think we have had more entertainment from the mess than we would have had if we had wave one and two already in hand and if they had been done right in the first place.
Well the only Moster at that demo in New York will be a downloaded paper standee, to which Palladium have added the tag, "the awesome , mouthwatering, highly detailed model kit for this unit will be available soon - we promise, keep the faith"
Mike1975 wrote: I think we have had more entertainment from the mess than we would have had if we had wave one and two already in hand and if they had been done right in the first place.
Speak for yourself. I want my fething MAC-II.
I already got mine.....
I'm waiting to get some $ to buy my REF Destroids next. Already have my Invid ordered.
That angle (proxied figures) has always struck me as a little strange. PB are indeed quite hostile to anyone that think is even remotely infringing upon their IP, but at Gencon last year they mentioned a table (demo?) being run that had a number of proxies involved (I recall a MAC-II, pretty sure there were other Wave 2 items involved that were either toys or 3D prints or something).
Plus "Bad Syntax" and his 3D prints that helped kick off 'the great scale discussion/argument/red herring'.
For a company that has in the past used C&Ds/legal shenanigans in some extremely skepticism inducing ways (ie: the Rift video game battle), it is a little weird that they are cool with self-made wave 2 stuff. Maybe they're ignorant of it being 'a thing' with this kind of product, maybe it's a subtle admission that it's the only way these fans will see wave 2 stuff in a reasonable timeframe (obviously we're already well beyond that).
Forar wrote: That angle (proxied figures) has always struck me as a little strange. PB are indeed quite hostile to anyone that think is even remotely infringing upon their IP, but at Gencon last year they mentioned a table (demo?) being run that had a number of proxies involved (I recall a MAC-II, pretty sure there were other Wave 2 items involved that were either toys or 3D prints or something).
Plus "Bad Syntax" and his 3D prints that helped kick off 'the great scale discussion/argument/red herring'.
For a company that has in the past used C&Ds/legal shenanigans in some extremely skepticism inducing ways (ie: the Rift video game battle), it is a little weird that they are cool with self-made wave 2 stuff. Maybe they're ignorant of it being 'a thing' with this kind of product, maybe it's a subtle admission that it's the only way these fans will see wave 2 stuff in a reasonable timeframe (obviously we're already well beyond that).
No idea but I'm going to have all three series one way or another. I'm missing some AJACs and Battloids for Southern Cross and need get some Alphas and Betas but the rest is convered. Mechwarrior Power Armor combines with 40k Epic Imperial Bikes make excellent Cyclones. Other than that I have the rest covered.
Forar wrote: That angle (proxied figures) has always struck me as a little strange. PB are indeed quite hostile to anyone that think is even remotely infringing upon their IP, but at Gencon last year they mentioned a table (demo?) being run that had a number of proxies involved (I recall a MAC-II, pretty sure there were other Wave 2 items involved that were either toys or 3D prints or something).
Plus "Bad Syntax" and his 3D prints that helped kick off 'the great scale discussion/argument/red herring'.
For a company that has in the past used C&Ds/legal shenanigans in some extremely skepticism inducing ways (ie: the Rift video game battle), it is a little weird that they are cool with self-made wave 2 stuff. Maybe they're ignorant of it being 'a thing' with this kind of product, maybe it's a subtle admission that it's the only way these fans will see wave 2 stuff in a reasonable timeframe (obviously we're already well beyond that).
Well, self-made (or as I'm doing, gashapon), I don't think they can do anything about. Anything coming out of Shapeways or such, I guess they could - but that's probably more something HG would patrol, not PB. Though PB could point out anything they find to HG, I just suspect that it would fall to HG to shut it down.
To be honest, I get the impression they're not pointing it out because they're eyeing using it for their own purposes....
Forar wrote: That angle (proxied figures) has always struck me as a little strange. PB are indeed quite hostile to anyone that think is even remotely infringing upon their IP, but at Gencon last year they mentioned a table (demo?) being run that had a number of proxies involved (I recall a MAC-II, pretty sure there were other Wave 2 items involved that were either toys or 3D prints or something).
Plus "Bad Syntax" and his 3D prints that helped kick off 'the great scale discussion/argument/red herring'.
For a company that has in the past used C&Ds/legal shenanigans in some extremely skepticism inducing ways (ie: the Rift video game battle), it is a little weird that they are cool with self-made wave 2 stuff. Maybe they're ignorant of it being 'a thing' with this kind of product, maybe it's a subtle admission that it's the only way these fans will see wave 2 stuff in a reasonable timeframe (obviously we're already well beyond that).
PB does not do anything because it is not their IP to protect, it is HG's IP to do something, and considering how HG is not really protecting their IP like they used to makes me wonder if HG has just given up on Robotech ?
They could very easily point out the worst offenders to HG however, but that itsn't going to happen because that lot includes some of the biggest fan friends in it.
Their booth is probably 1/2 if not 2/3 dominated by a magazine style rack of their RPG books which is all discounted 30% off. For Robotech® RPG Tactics™ they have a glass Ikea case a small 3x3 demo table and a half dozen of the metal convention special blister packs lined up on the table. I don't recall seeing any of their Robotech® RPG Tactics™ boxes actually on display, maybe it was there behind the table but I was trying not to look directly in the vicinity of NMI or the other guy working the booth since I didn't want to encourage them to start talking. Overall impression was that for being at a miniatures event they weren't being very focused on promoting miniatures.
To put things in contrast only one other booth had a RPG product which was a large local retailer (Games Plus) and their onlyrpg product was a D&D book that just released so it was a single item that was maybe 8-10 copies in a small stack and not even a shelf worth. Osprey had quite a few books but they were all miniatures game items, they didn't even have their historical reference books which is pretty extensive, so all the other retailers knew their market and that Adepticon is entirely miniatures focused. (which is why I like it so much)
The Ikea case had 3 of the shelves with painted models then the bottom shelf had the wave two prototypes they used in the promotional picture posted earlier in this thread. They did take the time to fix the arm on the FPA, I'm sure it was a very involved project. One shelf had the models painted by Blue Table and the other two shelves were likely done by fan friends or PB employees as the paints were a very basic table standard that you could see splotches of underlying paint layers without any highlighting or drybrushing so it was typical of what you see at the LGS from the average guy starting out. Not terrible but also not very inspiring. It works at a distance but it's not something most companies would use to promote their stuff. Sort of a low end "3 color minimum" style if it were a 40k equivalent.
Blue Table's paint quality on some of them was a decent tabletop standard but doesn't hold up all that well to a close inspection especially when you look at the display models of the other vendors, the stuff at Ninja DIvision for instance blows the pants off Robotech by miles as does any of the stuff from Reaper or evener small companies like Bushido. Most companies at Adepticon really put their best forward to promote things and while Robotech is present they don't do a very good job of showcasing it with any sort of "WOW" factor.
The only thing "new" is maybe the resin SDF-1 which was at last year's Gencon? so there's really nothing to draw people in at the booth. Some of the one man garage companies producing laser cut terrain and tokens do a better job of displaying and promoting their stuff, which probably leaves most onlookers with a "meh" reaction as they file past RRT towards something more interesting. I felt like it was their typical "good enough" approach with minimal investment of effort.
That is a good question "why are they at adepticon?" Also I did not hear that they attended the GAMA convention a few weeks ago.
I honestly think they are just waiting for the last nail in the coffin. Really don't know where the money is being generated from..
They are clueless on what they need to be doing.. I'm sure for every box set sold of RTT that at least half ordered the Monster
miniature.. So if that item is popular enough; wouldn't that be a good idea to produce? Retail sales would increase that number
of units sold..
Just like the ad they just released for the upcoming Rifts game.. It was half way done and looked like very juvenile produced.
You would never see a such thing coming from Games Workshop or any other company putting out advertisement like that.
Have they forgotten they are fighting for the same shelf space in the game stores?? The few game store owners I know but just
order a "few" (2-3) copies of Palladium releases when they come out. Most have put Palladium on the special order list now..
Where you have to personally request the product to come in.The Yawning Portal for Dungeons and Dragons the store
ordered forty copies.. That just shows the trust level with the store's owners that are selling their products
Called it over a month a go on ks's site. A booth with mostly rpg's and nothing new in the case. Not really surprised they aren't going out of their way to engage people either, they tend to just ignore most people i noticed the last 2 years i went to adepticon and tried asking anything.
Well I guess to help report how sad it was, the first time I went past the booth nmi and Wayne were building a veritechs squad and refused to look up again when I said hi. So went and dropped some money with forge world not giving pb a second look. Almost told a few guys I saw that bought some rrt stuff good luck finding players and I hope they didn't pay pb directly, but decided they need to find out on their own. Other than that some awesome looking armies all over the place and was nice running into some old freinds.
As both videos show, there is no hiding the fact of what is going on with Palladium games. They went to a major gaming convention
that is mainly miniatures and took role play games.. The miniatures they do have is for a game they released three years ago with
no new releases and now in development @@@. I am sure the only reason they were at Adepticon is early on before Ninja Division
had left them.. The idea of going to Adepticon was a good idea.. And got stuck with a multi year agreement because it was cheaper..
There will always be fans of the games that will be excited about meeting Kevin and/or Wayne, but every passing
moment they keep driving their games into the ground the less they will have..
I can hear it now.. a Fan friend.. "Hey.. they used my idea".. No.. They stole your idea and didn't pay you for it.
I really have to go to that show sometime.
MiniWargaming guys from down the road were there which would have been interesting.
With what was displayed there, can you seriously justify wasting one minute on PB?
Gotta be fast on that freeze frame lol. I don't blame the videos for shooting past the booth as I certainly didn't want to have to talk to anyone there, I didn't look past the front table line so I missed the product display in the rear of the booth. With a quick glance it sort of blended in with the banners. Maybe if enough people ignore PB they'll go away?
In mildly interesting news, something Robotech related happened to me today. Some of you know I work for CoolStuffInc. I actually work in the miniatures department. Funny, I know.
Anyway, working at my desk when one of the guys from receiving comes over and says: "Hey, got some Robotech in today."
I immediately freak out - "What?! Where?! Show me!"
He replied: "It's a rulebook."
The same rulebook that came in the box.
Whoopity Freakin' Doo!
Do I recall that Palladium said they were going to release this? Like years ago?
Do I recall that Palladium said they were going to release this? Like years ago?
At least its a release? Jazz hands?
I believe this was available (in the Christmas packages) since the boxed set was available, unfortunately, so it's not a new release.
Now, if it had been the campaign scenarios they lifted from their fan-friends they had on display last Gencon, that would have been something newish - at least bound in print form.
Do I recall that Palladium said they were going to release this? Like years ago?
At least its a release? Jazz hands?
I believe this was available (in the Christmas packages) since the boxed set was available, unfortunately, so it's not a new release.
Now, if it had been the campaign scenarios they lifted from their fan-friends they had on display last Gencon, that would have been something newish - at least bound in print form.
Regarding rulebook availability, yep. It might not have been released immediately, but it's been in the webstore since at least early 2015.
Regarding the scenario book, it's not ready yet. Kevin needs to figure out how much he needs to rewrite so that he can claim first credit on the front cover. Whether or not he learns the rules before he starts tinkering with scenario balance, is anyone's guess.
Surprisingly, a lot of talking about RRT. Not suprisingly, still very scant on actual information. Quick summary by para.
- Relaunch expected this year, and into next year. Wave 2 not specified in the former.
- More promises of support (tounaments, campaign and sourcebooks, build and paint programs) all BEFORE Wave 2. Scenario book approved by HG. Again, promises of lots more stuff.
- Please by Wave 1! People are still finding out about it and are excited!
Then there's a section on Adepticon that has more RRT spiel.
- Adepticon was a big success! We sold out (or came close) of most things! Non-stop demos, and everyone loved it!
- Announcement of three GenCon tournies, and people being excited!
- gRifts mention.
- Wayne and Co were building their armies. There's a joke there about it being 30+ months, and they're still working on it (cause the miniatures are so fiddly) but while PB are a joke, I don't find them that funny.
On the RPG front, the inevitable slide of release dates has started. Since literally last week...
HOH Arsenal has gone from March/April to May.
Disavowed has gone from Spring to Spring/Summer
Garden of the Gods has gone from April/May to "tentative May/June"
Atlanteans has gone from April to May.
Sovietski has gone from Spring/Summer to Summer.
Those are the five books originally slated for a release by end of June. And of course this being PB, they've accelerated an otherwise unknown book (it first appeared last week), Dark Designs, into a June/July release date, so they can ship "Raw" copies now. Because the five books promised, and the RRT stuff promised, and the new stuff promised, aren't enough things for them to concentrate on getting out.
The only thing to expect from PB is they'll fail to meet a majority of their promises, if not all of them. Kicking the can down the road, and then pretending that was where the can always was, is PB's SOP.
In mildly interesting news, something Robotech related happened to me today. Some of you know I work for CoolStuffInc. I actually work in the miniatures department. Funny, I know.
Anyway, working at my desk when one of the guys from receiving comes over and says: "Hey, got some Robotech in today."
I immediately freak out - "What?! Where?! Show me!"
He replied: "It's a rulebook."
The same rulebook that came in the box.
Whoopity Freakin' Doo!
Do I recall that Palladium said they were going to release this? Like years ago?
At least its a release? Jazz hands?
and you didn't warn CSI to stay away from all things Palladium ?
You know it would have been great if someone had film the whole day. See what going on at PB table and what kind of lie about what going on at the con.
That actually looks damn good. I wonder if they had it commissioned or if it was donated by a fan-friend? (I mean, we know no one in-house, by their own admission, has the skills to make something like that).
What happened to the ND demo table they had a few years ago, I wonder? Possibly ditched because it was using Drop Commander scenery?
I think the original mini demo tables were even smaller. Weren't they 18 inch disks? Maybe 2 feet? A 2x2 square would have even more surface area than that (and yes, 'you can't even use Jet mode' was a critique of those as well). I think they were just using 2 VT's versus a set of pods for those demos, from the pics we saw, this seems to be a slightly larger conflict with Destroids involved.
cannonfodr wrote: So the demo looks like 6 Battlepods vs 2 Valks and a destroid squad of 2 tomahawks and 2 defenders? Sucks to be Zentraedi I guess.
Maybe the Zentraedi have already lost some figures, or the demo gives the attacker a substantial advantage intentionally to keep things snappy. Or it's badly designed and not reflective of the proper game balance.
I dunno, but we probably shouldn't assume too much based off a pic.
The guy who built the table has been speaking up in Mike's group, so if it's really important, I suppose we could find out the details.
It's not. The most important thing here is that a single hobbyist with the gusto to make a demo board has somehow managed to convince kevvy that there is a world of interest it RRT by showing basic interest in the game.
Genoside07 wrote:But the update started how they realize how off track they are but quickly they are trying to correct it..
I seriously hope not. They are Sooooo far off-course that they are about to do a 360 and end up the same way they were facing 3 years ago. If they just stop trying to find a new direction, they would actually have a chance in hell of finishing this thing before we are all dead. IF they actually correct their course now, they'll end up going around in circles again for years more before ending up in the same position 6 years from now.
Soul Samurai wrote:It would make sense to be unbalanced, if the demo-er always plays the weaker side and the demo-ee always plays the stronger.
And you believe that'll be the case why?
Kev: So what happened with the demo games?
Staffer: We played plenty of games, but we kept getting out backsides handed to us and out faces flannelled.
Kev: I can't trust you, you must have been letting the little creeps cheat, they can't have a better understanding of our game than we do. You have betrayed my trust (Crisis of Treachery XVII) and I'm going off to sulk for 6 months. Nothing must be done on the project until I am well enough to oversee it again. Now get under that bus!
Or is this a more reasonable scenario based on current knowledge?
Kev: So what happened with the demo games?
Staffer: We played plenty of games, and no-one could beat us in battle. We were invincible!
Kev: I told you that no-one could understand our game better than we do, that no-one cares about Robotech as much as we do. Right, let's get back to work - it's your turn on the generator cycle today, and I need plenty of light to ensure that we can make this project right!
at least the second one holds the promise of some progress, soon!
PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE - MARCH 31, 2017
By Kevin Siembieda
Palladium Books has been quiet these past few years, with fewer and fewer releases even for Rifts®. There have been a number of reasons for that, but they don’t really matter now. What does matter is that it is about to change, big time, as Palladium works to reinfuse the “wow factor” into Rifts® and all our game worlds. And that’s in addition to licensed product lines from an increasing number of third parties (see details below).
Their words not mine... But again... its just words and actions speak a lot louder...
PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE - MARCH 31, 2017
By Kevin Siembieda
Palladium Books has been quiet these past few years, with fewer and fewer releases even for Rifts®. There have been a number of reasons for that, but they don’t really matter now. What does matter is that it is about to change, big time, as Palladium works to reinfuse the “wow factor” into Rifts® and all our game worlds. And that’s in addition to licensed product lines from an increasing number of third parties (see details below).
Their words not mine... But again... its just words and actions speak a lot louder...
Kevin sounds more and more like a carnival barker (paraphrase commence!):.
"Step right up! This is the calm before the storm and you want to be a part of it! We have less product for you to see to ensure the quality! The show has changed but the song remains the same... <ahem> we have put more "wow" into "wowza!" which is what you will say when you view our worlds! We have more performers to peddle... <ahem> promote! our astounding products."
I wonder if he was feeling "on fire" when he wrote that.
Is there anyone at PB that has "to take action" in their job description anywhere?
Discount NMI, he has god-like powers with the ban-hammer and that is a different skill set from what we need.
This little throw-away sentence:
There have been a number of reasons for that, but they don’t really matter now.
is an irritant.
Reasons for being "quiet for years at a time" is not important and it is going to change "big time"??
Would be nice to know what can cause stagnation to epic levels for PB.
Always throwing out those teasers, if you become a "fan-friend" we could be let in on the secret.
Reminds me of a granddad ready to give the grandkid a dollar but explaining how he has be good, be respectful and especially PATIENT while waving it in front of his face.
"Yeah, yeah, old guy: the dollar is not looking important enough to pay attention to this garbage."
<edit> Sorry, "on-topic" no information, much commitment to an unknown and unspoken plan. This is STILL no change on no info for wave 2.
all that means is Kevin is expecting a big cash influx from the RIFT's boardgame, he figures since RRT did $1.5 mil. his RIFT's game which he considers a much superior product will do twice that at least, me thinks hes in for an upset. that and any money made from that will go right back into his company and the RIFT's boardgame will go into limbo just like RRT did.
Conrad Turner wrote: Right, let's get back to work - it's your turn on the generator cycle today
That at least would explain how they're managing to keep the lights on when they don't actually seem to do anything...
None of them looked very fit. I don't think that this is the way they do it. Maybe spying on the neighbors and seeing who's not there and stealing their electric, but running a manual generator by bike, not a chance.
Maybe Palladium is in the process of waking up?
Though they seemed to accept they were asleep and really want to get back to it.
I should not complain though, I have been sucked into PC games lately and the model hobby has been languishing badly.
I think I have a handle on sealing Shapeways WSF plastic so that is queuing up as well.
Sister-in-law wanted me to prep/paint her Zombicide heroes which looks like fun so that may trump a few things (funny how that word has new meaning).
Genoside07 wrote:But the update started how they realize how off track they are but quickly they are trying to correct it..
I seriously hope not. They are Sooooo far off-course that they are about to do a 360 and end up the same way they were facing 3 years ago. If they just stop trying to find a new direction, they would actually have a chance in hell of finishing this thing before we are all dead. IF they actually correct their course now, they'll end up going around in circles again for years more before ending up in the same position 6 years from now.
Soul Samurai wrote:It would make sense to be unbalanced, if the demo-er always plays the weaker side and the demo-ee always plays the stronger.
And you believe that'll be the case why?
Kev: So what happened with the demo games?
Staffer: We played plenty of games, but we kept getting out backsides handed to us and out faces flannelled.
Kev: I can't trust you, you must have been letting the little creeps cheat, they can't have a better understanding of our game than we do. You have betrayed my trust (Crisis of Treachery XVII) and I'm going off to sulk for 6 months. Nothing must be done on the project until I am well enough to oversee it again. Now get under that bus!
Or is this a more reasonable scenario based on current knowledge?
Kev: So what happened with the demo games?
Staffer: We played plenty of games, and no-one could beat us in battle. We were invincible!
Kev: I told you that no-one could understand our game better than we do, that no-one cares about Robotech as much as we do. Right, let's get back to work - it's your turn on the generator cycle today, and I need plenty of light to ensure that we can make this project right!
at least the second one holds the promise of some progress, soon!
I think it is more likely that the players have Pods vs VTs or Pods vs Battloids to showcase how both function. Not Pods vs all at once. After all, the Battloids are in a corner and none of the Pods are facing that way. If it was me I'd at least turn partly towards them if they were a threat.
PALLADIUM BOOKS® WEEKLY UPDATE - MARCH 31, 2017
By Kevin Siembieda
Palladium Books has been quiet these past few years, with fewer and fewer releases even for Rifts®. There have been a number of reasons for that, but they don’t really matter now. What does matter is that it is about to change, big time, as Palladium works to reinfuse the “wow factor” into Rifts® and all our game worlds. And that’s in addition to licensed product lines from an increasing number of third parties (see details below).
Their words not mine... But again... its just words and actions speak a lot louder...
It's just a variation of the last few years (since I've been paying attention). It's the same old thing: "We know we stink. We're feeling energized and ready to improve." They then follow that up with lowering the bar.
n815e wrote: It's just a variation of the last few years (since I've been paying attention). It's the same old thing: "We know we stink. We're feeling energized and ready to improve." They then follow that up with lowering the bar.
I would love to argue this for all our sakes but it is pretty much spot-on for what has been observed in the past.
The scary part is, when by some miracle they get some product out even if it is a Rifts art coaster, they get all full of themselves and we get spoken to like impatient children.
It is like "see, we are making stuff as promised, your worries and complaints are unfounded" never-mind typically product they do get around to making is not what people asked for.
Or was asked for so long ago it no longer has relevance.
n815e wrote: It's just a variation of the last few years (since I've been paying attention). It's the same old thing: "We know we stink. We're feeling energized and ready to improve." They then follow that up with lowering the bar.
I would love to argue this for all our sakes but it is pretty much spot-on for what has been observed in the past.
The scary part is, when by some miracle they get some product out even if it is a Rifts art coaster, they get all full of themselves and we get spoken to like impatient children.
It is like "see, we are making stuff as promised, your worries and complaints are unfounded" never-mind typically product they do get around to making is not what people asked for.
Or was asked for so long ago it no longer has relevance.
Crappy Dice bags anyone?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or Malcontent dice that never appear.......
Okay, I was at work last night, really trying to avoid actually doing any work (I could work for Palladium!), and I had a thought.
Palladium wants to do the relaunch this year. Yeah, yeah, I know, they've been promising for a while. Ignore that, and that a relaunch without Wave 2 at least imminent is pointless.
I'm just specifically theorizing about the general relaunch, in that it happens, and that it's not a complete failure. Lookit all these wild assumptions about things going swimmingly, I really could work for PB!.
The way I see it, there are three things that could happen. And this is where things fall completely off the cliff.
1) The relaunch is successful, and PB have the stock on hand of all W1 stuff to cover the supply. Which, after three years of it being at retail, backers have to ask just how much was spent on retail stock that after three years they haven't needed a resupply.
2) The relaunch is successful, but PB run out of retail stock, at least in specific areas (Arty and SparPhals, possibly cores), which completely sandbags the relaunch, as a restock is 4+ months at least.
3) PB order a restock in anticipation of the relaunch, which would beg the question of why they're spending funds on that, and not Wave 2.
None of these look good for PB. Not sure which is worse, but all look bad to one degree or another, with 1 and 3 both being drekky from a backer's perspective. It begs the question of how does a relaunch, which PB keeps trying to convince people is a net positive, actually help backers?
A fair point, Morgan. It raises the question of their actions and words not jiving together.
If they really believe that the relaunch will be successful, then they should act accordingly. If it's just hot air, their actions will back that up. Talking like they expect a big win but acting like they don't is the disconnect that has shown up a lot over the years, and even dates back to the actual campaign.
I mean, they were supposed to go to manufacturing within 45 days of the campaign closing or something, but the very Pledge Manager to provide the information they'd need to more than ballpark demand of non-core items wasn't even ready until 3 or 4 months after the campaign ended.
This is tangential, I agree with the larger point, just building off that to something that PB has struggled with from the beginning, and is drowning them now. They remain a laughingstock and the target of scorn because 'big claims they fall short on' is their bread and butter.
But you raise an interesting point; even 'success' (or some measure thereof) might have strings attached.
The whole notion of a relaunch is a mythical construct, it would require you getting off the ground once before, and that didn't happen here. I think resurfacing would be a better term for what they intend to happen.
Swabby wrote: The whole notion of a relaunch is a mythical construct, it would require you getting off the ground once before, and that didn't happen here. I think resurfacing would be a better term for what they intend to happen.
Oh, I doubt it will happen. Nor do I think Wave 2 will happen. I think once the gRifts Kickstarter funding has concluded, even the uninformative but extensive wankery offered by Kevin will dry up and we'll go back to the single line vague platitudes of the past year or so.
My point was that even in the mythical world within Kevin's imagination, there's still a crapload of problems that he will likely stumble over, even in their best case scenario.
Actually, if anybody wants RRT to survive, a relaunch is absolutely essential.
Assume PB is out of the picture, someone else steps in to manage the product line. They would absolutely need to do a relaunch because the first launch was limp... if you are generous about it.
The only good thing about that limp first go is that it didn't exactly give RRT the game a bad rep. The bad rep is mostly from the company, not the ruleset.. and maybe that Spartan. Otherwise, the game itself is ok, the minis aren't terribad (not great either). Strictly speaking, the potential is still there, but it's a gak-ton of work to get it up and running again.
Far, far beyond what PB has ever demonstrated it was willing to put into any product. Maybe even the sum total of effort into all its products.
