n815e wrote: Relaunch isn't going to work without Wave 2.
People might pick up interest again if they saw the remainder of what is due come out.
You are right that the game's reputation isn't bad, outside of its association with PB.
My thoughts are.
RE-launch is not what they should be calling it. I can't remember anything much of an impression they had already 'launched' a game. The KS came to an end. Time went by. Technology improved, PB's communications about what was actually happening went down the drain. What has happened so far reminds me of an early rocket test - got inches off the ground then exploded spectacularly. That mess cannot be salvaged and 're-launched', you end up throwing scrap in the air and watching it land on your own head. You have to build another one, changing things you have found to be wrong, and launch the second version.
I still believe you had a few too many words in your first sentence. In my mind, you should have said "Relaunch [2nd launch] isn't going to work." as I doubt it will work with or without Wave 2.
As I have never played, I cannot comment on the game's reputation, but I do believe that there is more than it's association [PB's new slogan? "Putting the Ass in ASS-ociation"?] with PB that is holding the game's reputation back. I would go so far as to say that it's something like 50% won't buy it because ... PB, 25% because it's so late and they don't have the models for fielding what they want unless they know about other ways to get them, and 25% because the models there are, are too fiddly to build for a lot of people, so that takes us back to other means of procurement again
From a business perspective, I think the whole 'relaunch' is simply them grasping at the nearest thing to hide behind. It was a flop and continues to be little more than a footnote in gaming terms, at least from everything I've seen.
Beyond being a resource for some 'unseen' mechs (in or out of general Battletech scale), and with Kevin's well known concerns regarding IP and litigation (both their own penchant for throwing around C&D's, and fears of treading onto thin ice), I think that it's less about seriously thinking that the game will launch or relaunch or super duper relaunch, but "this is another piece of plausible deniability that keeps the wolves at bay".
I think that's just part of the game for them; claim a relaunch is coming, sputter something vague about the parts count, proclaim that wave 2 is totes happening in 20__, for realz.
Whether or not it did anything but become a source of scorn and derision (and the campaign unarguably (to me) had a much larger impact on the gaming community than the actual game itself ever will) is tangential to what the statements represent. Taking them at face value for anything but laughs is to assume good faith on their behalf. I think we can pretty safely ignore them doing or saying anything in good faith.
Did it launch? Did it relaunch? Will it relaunch? These are the wrong questions. Why do they keep talking about it? Well, that has a fairly obvious answer to me, as I've stated above.
I sometimes really do wonder how much of an audience at this time Palladium Books has.
You know, for things like being "a laughing stock" to have relevance.
There is the 5000+ backers with probably at least 2/3rds uninvolved or having forgotten they made this pledge.
Some of the SW:R kickstarter backers could be an overlap but if I was an RPG player that would be my opportunity to move-on and not look back.
Sometimes I think we few, we happy few, we band of brothers are all the audience they have and the various hangers on of long time fan friends.
Well, I guess the main question is how long they can go and keep what few lights they have on.
Merijeek wrote: ...and the beneficent Carmen was going to do that for you people. But nooooooooo
A scary example of not being in your happy place.
Angry backers to one side, freaky IP holder on the other, stuck in the middle.
Beg, threaten, bribe, coerce... dealing with Palladium only brings out the best in people speaking for myself as well.
Well, I should soon have a "Monster" together, so I can add one more checkmark to me caring less what PB does.
Merijeek wrote: And, apart from "Kevin said so" why do you believe that and how can you know that?
Is there some other Robotech tabletop game license holder that would go and object to HG?
Because that does jive with what we do know of the settlement of the Macross IP case.
HG keeps whatever it had at the point, but cannot issue any more new licenses; PB has (only) the Robotech RPG licenses, and HG preferred ND to work with its existing license holder. So they had to bash around the problem until a workable solution pops. Given that PB would be unlikely to rework the RPG stats because that would require a full range rewrite, possibly extending into the core system itself, this is why we have the working Frankenstein that we do.
There is no, and will not be any, non-Japanese Robotech Tabletop Game license holder because HG is legally barred from issuing any, as far as I am aware. At least involving the First Generation (which is the big nostalgia draw). This also explains why HG keep wanting to push Robotech beyond the Sentinels era -- they need to create a separate IP that they can exploit fully.
Merijeek wrote: And, apart from "Kevin said so" why do you believe that and how can you know that?
Is there some other Robotech tabletop game license holder that would go and object to HG?
Because that does jive with what we do know of the settlement of the Macross IP case.
HG keeps whatever it had at the point, but cannot issue any more new licenses; PB has (only) the Robotech RPG licenses, and HG preferred ND to work with its existing license holder. So they had to bash around the problem until a workable solution pops. Given that PB would be unlikely to rework the RPG stats because that would require a full range rewrite, possibly extending into the core system itself, this is why we have the working Frankenstein that we do.
There is no, and will not be any, non-Japanese Robotech Tabletop Game license holder because HG is legally barred from issuing any, as far as I am aware. At least involving the First Generation (which is the big nostalgia draw). This also explains why HG keep wanting to push Robotech beyond the Sentinels era -- they need to create a separate IP that they can exploit fully.
Correct.
Also any time we wanted to deviate from the RPG there was a very strong and emphatic NO involved. Thankfully my shapeways order arrived so the only thing I have left that I'm lacking are a few Battloids and the Inorganics.
Swabby wrote: That may be true, but are you certain that it is licensing, or did they just tell you no?
If I had a bunch of non employees telling me to change things I would be telling them no as well.
1. The changes were not huge
2. There were not many changes asked for
3. Some changes were just point cost related
4. A lot of people involved and not a part of PB were also telling me the same thing.
5. The rewrite of the ND rules was also done to bring things closer to the RPG 6. The entire we can't do a Monster originally was based on making a figure that would be over X inches tall and hence could be considered a model
Lots of other things. It was not just one or two comments a couple times. I had participated on a large number of conference calls with PB and conversations with others.
So, right or wrong, that was the impression that the entire team had or was led to, however you wish to see it yourselves.
Swabby wrote: That may be true, but are you certain that it is licensing, or did they just tell you no?
If I had a bunch of non employees telling me to change things I would be telling them no as well.
There's no reason to suspect PB isn't just god awfully lazy either. It's not an OR situation, it's an AND situation. PB was way out of their depths tinkering with a miniature game, even one disguised as a RPG supplement. They are also not bothered to learn about the industry. Won't have worked out really.
The crux of this is that RRT didn't have much of a legal chance to be a miniature board game in the West thanks to the ruling, as far as I know, and tabletop gaming is not a big thing in Japan. ND rolled the dice asking HG and got PB, and PB wasn't interested in bending the rules ("RPG Supplement" *wink* *wink* *nod* *nod*) in the sense that we would have liked. We got what we got because of that.
Swabby wrote: I personally do not put much merit in anything we cannot get hard data on. Speculating on why is just that, speculation.
The facts we have are scant and we will probably never know the full story due to legalities.
I found it awfully funny how PB would point out much of what we had to say was speculation and not facts.
Easy to say when they are the ones sitting on what actually has happened and are unwilling to tell: they deserve all the speculation we can throw at them until they get in the mood to clear the air.
Their plans on how to finish wav2 OR refund our money OR delay us forever OR close their doors forever are the answers I am looking for, what happened in the past is not having much relevance.
I am rather surprised with myself how much their amazing future plans for releases for RRT like a scenario book mean almost nothing to me.
I may have been pretty excited two or three years back.
BTW the snark is aimed at PB not you, I am glad you can maintain your interest to the level you do.
Couldn't agree more. Robotech was something I really enjoyed. But PB have killed all that.
IF RRT was to have been the golden goose they wanted, they should have removed their hands from around it's neck. I just find their current efforts to pretend it's not dead by keeping their hands on it's neck and wiggling it's lifeless head as they drag it's feet through the dirt to be depressing.
Whether they pony up on Wave 2 [and just about everything they owe me], continue to put the telescope to their blind eye (that they are masters at turning when anyone asks a pertinent, polite, question on when they are going to deliver) and basically say "We see no ships.", or whether they stop trading for whatever reason, it's all the same to me.
I no longer have any desire to have the character models, I have already bought a bigger and better SDF-1, and the YF models were more to have a model of the model that the child was seen playing with, rather than any love for the actual craft.
It's like they say, don't bet what you can't afford to lose. I didn't, and that's why I'm walking away today.
Removing my subscription to this thread, we are precisely 0% further on than we were in the beginning. No information as PB keeps up with the "We're really working on it folks.", no sign of change, KS refusing to do anything about it as long as PB keep telling them "We're really working on it, this is super hard for a RPG company you know!" whilst all the time PB are annoyed about the speculation going about.
That's worse than not being able to get online, calling the supplier and telling them, only to be told that they can't deal with that sort of problem over the phone - you have to use the website! [how can I, I can't get online!]
Anyway, I feel like I have made some friends in this thread, and the previous one, but it's time for me to bow out. I no longer give a rodent's rectum what happens to PB from here on out, whatever they do, they'll do it without me. Enough of their customers doo the same, the rest have no chance of getting what we wanted in the beginning, but I don't think any of us stand a snowball's of reaching that state anyway.
@Conrad - I'm sorry to see you go. I know those fethers at PB are lying through their teeth, and they deserve to be gakked upon at every opportunity. But I do get how it can't be healthy to hold onto this. Take care.
Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.
Mike1975 wrote: Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.
Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!
@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...
Mike1975 wrote: Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.
Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!
@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...
LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.
Nothing new to report this week. Everything continues to move forward with Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other products. When we have details, we will share them.
Contradictory bugger all, even. Things are moving forward, but nothing to report. What. Ever. At least they're not pretending.
In the GenCon news, the title specifically mentions RRT Tourneys, but then says nothing about them.
gRifts gets significantly more text, but it's more about how a friend of his loves what they've seen, and is full of effusive praise, than anything of note too. There's a link to the Rogue Heroes FB page, one that hasn't been updated in almost three weeks. Similarly, the gRifts section of the Palladium Forums hasn't had a single post in over two weeks. And if Wiley/Roadrunner hadn't posted his version of a PBWU report, neither would the RRT section. Things are hopping when it comes to Palladium miniatures, that's for sure!
On the book front, they're still promising three books by June (and two more by Summer), but Dark Designs, the book that jumped to the head of the queue so they could sell the preview copies, has shifted from June/July to Summer.
His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.
Morgan Vening wrote: His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.
So... are they working on it and it's a PB's game, or is it Carmen's and they aren't? Can't seem to get the story straight between updates.
Mike1975 wrote: LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.
Understood, the hyper missile ballet John Woo action with robots is a whole lot to like and prefer.
I have some appreciation for the slow lumbering land battleships that is Battletech.
It is old school like shambling zombies (rather than sprinting), vampires that catch fire in the daylight (rather than sparkle) and anime that has love triangles (oh yeah, that has not changed).
Heavy gear was a nice try for trying to get speed into the stomping Mech end of things but there is something really entertaining about a robot that can sprint with jet/rocket assisted super leaps (scary springs to mind, much like the sprinting zombies).
Right about now I need to tell kids to get off my lawn.
Morgan Vening wrote: His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.
So... are they working on it and it's a PB's game, or is it Carmen's and they aren't? Can't seem to get the story straight between updates.
Actually, they do tend to mostly be on the same page publicly. It's nearly all "approval and feedback". Didn't explain what they did at Adepticon though. But who knows.
Oh, and for those interested in numbers/dates, in less than two weeks, (Thursday after next), it'll be 4 years since RRT funded. Having the gRifts Kickstarter launch on, or about, the anniversary, especially with nothing to report on RRT, is going to be "interesting".
And when looking for that date, I noticed that someone at PB has logged in to the Kickstarter account today. Not expecting an Update (given the PBWU), so it's either for other purposes, or they're looking at feedback.
In other dates, we're now well past the initial timeframe of completion based on W1, for W2 to happen this year (PPP's in early January, delivery in early October). But did anyone here REALLY think 2017 was ever going to happen? Am curious what their talking points will be at GenCon when W2 still doesn't have a quarter/half year release date. Watching them kick the can down the road is weirdly intriguing.
Swabby wrote: Just remember guys, there is absolutely no connection between Palladium Books and Rogue Heros llc. None, zero.
Wink;Wink;Nod;Nod
But honestly, the images for the rifts game is rather lacking a professional look being a company that is being back by a veteran of making games.
When Cool Mini or Not was first breaking into making games with zombicide and others.. they put their best foot forward..
The Rifts game I get a feel of "good enough" I have no plans to back it.. may give it a look if it ever makes it to retail... but that is a rather large if...
I use to like Rifts. Even sent them a submission for character ideas. They did get used, in part, but never wanted recognition for them. Now, I just hope the company burns.
I believe that this is exactly what Kevin is after, as regards RTT, he wants to project his own apathy about the project onto us all and hopes we will simply give up and go away, leaving him (and his acolytes) to play in their little fantasy rpg arena.
That is why I am so reluctant to throw the towel in, here on the KS forums and even ploughing a lone furrow over on their own Palladium boards.
We know at least one staffer (Jeffar) calls in here now and again and good old NMI crops up to sing his bosses praises . So I cannot believe PB are ignorant of the bad feeling out here, but like the three mokeys they pretend to be blind, deaf and dumb, while managing the atatomical feat of keeping theur collective thumbs up their backsides.
More than ever, I am looking forward to the launch of gRifts - yes the first mapboards look "unfinished and the gameplay looks plagarised (Imperial Assualt anyone) - if only to see if it does turn nasty, If ir does I know Kevin will spend more verbiage going after us. his customers than he has spent telling us what is (not) happenning ove rthe last three years
Mike1975 wrote: Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.
Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!
@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...
LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.
Mike1975 wrote: Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.
Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!
@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...
LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.
what never read the novels?
Actually have like 90% of the books. Even the one with the Ketatae or whatever they were called.
I read a little more into the PB "update" (Apr 7th) and noticed something (forgive me if others noticed): A TON of their line is now back in stock.
So they must have spent a wad on getting another print run of product done.
I was commenting on the KS page that I assume Rogue Heroes's licensing cheque had been cashed then? No refunds!!
RRT is such a priority BUT it does not keep the lights on (and will not bring in new money, only COST money).
Anyway, reading those weekly updates is time you will never get back and has some mental scarring assigned to it... I feel an overwhelming need to bang my head on the desk: they have such a pants on head way of "marketing".
My problem, not long now, a couple more deliveries and I will be able to distance from this.
ANYONE that can point me to a reasonable "approximation" of an Armored-VT please let me know (not the BT metal model, I know about that...).
I think I am done to some extent.
I did not get what I paid for...
ANYONE that can point me to a reasonable "approximation" of an Armored-VT please let me know (not the BT metal model, I know about that...).
I think I am done to some extent.
I did not get what I paid for...
sorry never got to finish my armored VT before my programs subscription ran out.
Asterios wrote: sorry never got to finish my armored VT before my programs subscription ran out.
Your sympathy is appreciated but does not help me! <sigh> I did work on a 3D model but it had so many issues my friend's printer "hated it".
I have a suspicion the various elements were not "fused" properly and confused the heck out of the program for making the filler pattern (surface/edge-find had too many objects inside the body).
Anyway, the original plan for the game is really good looking and was a good concept.
It is unfortunate that PB will not be the ones to realize the game to it's full extent.
If I must find something to be grateful for, at least the "core" units were covered in wave 1 but the "bling" of the series is wave 2 and is a crying shame to leave it as it is now.
Asterios wrote: sorry never got to finish my armored VT before my programs subscription ran out.
Your sympathy is appreciated but does not help me! <sigh> I did work on a 3D model but it had so many issues my friend's printer "hated it".
I have a suspicion the various elements were not "fused" properly and confused the heck out of the program for making the filler pattern (surface/edge-find had too many objects inside the body).
Anyway, the original plan for the game is really good looking and was a good concept.
It is unfortunate that PB will not be the ones to realize the game to it's full extent.
If I must find something to be grateful for, at least the "core" units were covered in wave 1 but the "bling" of the series is wave 2 and is a crying shame to leave it as it is now.
"Soon".
this was as far as my armored veritech prototypes got:
Asterios wrote: sorry never got to finish my armored VT before my programs subscription ran out.
Your sympathy is appreciated but does not help me! <sigh> I did work on a 3D model but it had so many issues my friend's printer "hated it".
I have a suspicion the various elements were not "fused" properly and confused the heck out of the program for making the filler pattern (surface/edge-find had too many objects inside the body).
Anyway, the original plan for the game is really good looking and was a good concept.
It is unfortunate that PB will not be the ones to realize the game to it's full extent.
If I must find something to be grateful for, at least the "core" units were covered in wave 1 but the "bling" of the series is wave 2 and is a crying shame to leave it as it is now.
"Soon".
Has your friend tried 'Meshmixer'? It's free and can automatically heal some 3D file issues.
GuyverBlue wrote: Has your friend tried 'Meshmixer'? It's free and can automatically heal some 3D file issues.
Thanks for giving it thought, I will ask.
He seemed pretty competent with using other models from people (mainly WW2 armor).
@Asterios: That model is a fine shot at it. The hip width is a bit alarming to me but all the other detail is really good.
I think that is why their last "new model" reveal way back when with the Armored-VT was so irritating: it looked incredibly good.
GuyverBlue wrote: Has your friend tried 'Meshmixer'? It's free and can automatically heal some 3D file issues.
Thanks for giving it thought, I will ask.
He seemed pretty competent with using other models from people (mainly WW2 armor).
@Asterios: That model is a fine shot at it. The hip width is a bit alarming to me but all the other detail is really good.
I think that is why their last "new model" reveal way back when with the Armored-VT was so irritating: it looked incredibly good.
yeah when working on it I was trying to get the size adjustments right on all the parts then was going to tweak it a bit until it "looked" right, but alas got caught up in other things and when I had time to go back to it time ran up.
GuyverBlue wrote: Has your friend tried 'Meshmixer'? It's free and can automatically heal some 3D file issues.
Thanks for giving it thought, I will ask.
He seemed pretty competent with using other models from people (mainly WW2 armor).
@Asterios: That model is a fine shot at it. The hip width is a bit alarming to me but all the other detail is really good.
I think that is why their last "new model" reveal way back when with the Armored-VT was so irritating: it looked incredibly good.
I've tried my hand at converting video game models for 3D printing recently, I would be interested in taking a look at the model you're using to see if I can figure out what's wrong with it. Can you upload it to a file hosting site and post a link?
Soul Samurai wrote: I've tried my hand at converting video game models for 3D printing recently, I would be interested in taking a look at the model you're using to see if I can figure out what's wrong with it. Can you upload it to a file hosting site and post a link?
Cool, will hunt down my last iteration.
I found a model on the internet (cannot find the original for the life of me) and I added the folded wings at the back which was lacking.
I think I deleted the head since we are up to our eyeballs in extra VT heads.
I was trying to clear out the various strange structures inside the chest of the model (been a long time since I last did 3D modeling).
Will see what I can forward to you.
This is a nice side project and thanks all for the responses.
This "all in this together" thing gives me more of a "warm fuzzy feeling" than PB doing a Ruiz.
Anyway, on topic: is Palladium doing anything with THEIR Armored VT model??
Soul Samurai wrote: I've tried my hand at converting video game models for 3D printing recently, I would be interested in taking a look at the model you're using to see if I can figure out what's wrong with it. Can you upload it to a file hosting site and post a link?
Cool, will hunt down my last iteration.
I found a model on the internet (cannot find the original for the life of me) and I added the folded wings at the back which was lacking.
I think I deleted the head since we are up to our eyeballs in extra VT heads.
I was trying to clear out the various strange structures inside the chest of the model (been a long time since I last did 3D modeling).
Will see what I can forward to you.
This is a nice side project and thanks all for the responses.
This "all in this together" thing gives me more of a "warm fuzzy feeling" than PB doing a Ruiz.
Anyway, on topic: is Palladium doing anything with THEIR Armored VT model??
If (usual caveat) Palladium have had 3d renders made for the Wave Two models, what would be the chances of backers getting hold of the files, so that they could print their own?
I know that it is most lrealistically a non starter but it could be a way to reope/relaunch the dialogue on Wave 2 and RTT as a whole.
Then this is PB and this brings no money in just goodwill so Kevin will kill it without hesitation
What, the paper markers aren't good enough for ya'll? The nerve!!!
No way PB would want the market flooded with "inferior" copies anyways; best to leave it to the folks who know what they're doing and can get you the best quality on the market.
Honestly, they'd probably argue those designs "belong" to HG, I'm sure, and couldn't be released due to IP infringement.
wilycoyote wrote: If (usual caveat) Palladium have had 3d renders made for the Wave Two models, what would be the chances of backers getting hold of the files, so that they could print their own?
Well, maybe if there's any decent hackers on this forum... but of course, that would require PB to actually have an internet connection, something that I'm not convinced is actually the case.
wilycoyote wrote: If (usual caveat) Palladium have had 3d renders made for the Wave Two models, what would be the chances of backers getting hold of the files, so that they could print their own?
Well, maybe if there's any decent hackers on this forum... but of course, that would require PB to actually have an internet connection, something that I'm not convinced is actually the case.
I think they may still have a GEOcities site....let me see if I can pull it up on my CRT. When I get the picture developed at the Kodak shop (should be tormorrow, what with 1-day processing these days), I ought to be able to fax it to ya'll.
Ew, I think I just stumbled on why it takes PB so long to post a KS update....
This is the sad truth of Palladium, no telling what outdated tech they use instead of what current publishers use.
As an owner Kevin should invest his money into improving his company but instead spends money on vintage star wars figures.
Looking at the old maross / robotech models in the previous links; makes me wonder if the sprues Palladium used wasn't an existing
macross models from the 80's that the Chinese manufacture had, used them without the original owner knowing; then got
the ownership rights pulled, so palladium had to figure out another way of producing the models.
As for old timer.. it was when I was living alone in a small apartment that none of my friends visited until I got the internet.
But I have upgraded many times since then... This is the only way to keep the wife's internet addiction in check..
Here in the Deep South, most folks around here are about 20 years in the past tech-wise. I happen to be lucky enough to be working for a company that is maybe 5-10 years behind. Still, most folks here seem to be ahead of PB when it comes to using/understanding technology.
Well, they did update their inventory/mailing system just before sending out Wave 1, but how much do you want to bet they packed it all up and asked for a refund after they were done shipping and went back to whatever MS Word/Wordperfect mail-merge system they had before (if that...)?
Well, they did update their inventory/mailing system just before sending out Wave 1, but how much do you want to bet they packed it all up and asked for a refund after they were done shipping and went back to whatever MS Word/Wordperfect mail-merge system they had before (if that...)?
Yes.. it was very nice for the RTT backers to pay for that upgrade..
Asterios wrote: wonder if I can list RRT or PB as a charity tax write off? since thats what PB seems to think they are.
No, they believe it is their due.
That form of payment runs closer to their intended business model of "How about you give us the money and we will see what we think you deserve."
Actually, looking at this harder, there is more truth there than I am comfortable with.
The Christmas loot bag thing is a fine example of that thought process.
The BBB replies pretty much said we got enough for our money.
So yes, the business mindset is "entitled" rather than begging for loose change.
Asterios wrote: wonder if I can list RRT or PB as a charity tax write off? since thats what PB seems to think they are.
No, they believe it is their due.
That form of payment runs closer to their intended business model of "How about you give us the money and we will see what we think you deserve."
Actually, looking at this harder, there is more truth there than I am comfortable with.
The Christmas loot bag thing is a fine example of that thought process.
The BBB replies pretty much said we got enough for our money.
So yes, the business mindset is "entitled" rather than begging for loose change.
Asterios wrote: wonder if I can list RRT or PB as a charity tax write off? since thats what PB seems to think they are.
No, they believe it is their due.
That form of payment runs closer to their intended business model of "How about you give us the money and we will see what we think you deserve."
Actually, looking at this harder, there is more truth there than I am comfortable with.
The Christmas loot bag thing is a fine example of that thought process.
The BBB replies pretty much said we got enough for our money.
So yes, the business mindset is "entitled" rather than begging for loose change.
And the one line blowoff didn't make a return. Because that's apparently too much effort. There's literally no separate RRT section this week. "tactics" is mentioned 16 times, but it's all either your standard advertising fare, or minor news from last week (there'll be tourneys at GenCon, no details). There's a weirdness to the fact that next Thursday marks the 4th anniversary of RRT launching, and there's no mention.
Of course, gRifts gets 4 full paragraphs, including a release date, of sorts (last week of April, maybe). And everyone who's seen it has been blown away! spank spank spank. If it launches on time (and I'm not taking bets on that) it'll provide an interesting commentary section, that's for sure.
He's also advertising for someone else's Kickstarter, a wild west RPG. And he gives it higher priority than gRifts. There's a slight change I might have backed it, maybe. But Kevin's declared he's possibly going to, so I'm definitely not.
On the book front, no books have slid, though it's only a matter of time. Two due by May, one due by June, three due by Summer. All but one (Dark Designs) having previously been listed as "First half of 2017". Well.... besides most being in the "First half of 2016" list (if not earlier). Keep fething that chicken, Kevin. Someone might believe you.
Same with any belief EoY is possible. Despite being "dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017".
I give it (out of 5). It's completely banal, and there's not much to be angry or peeved at. But it's also not filled with insults to our intelligence, and nearly anything that could be annoying, was annoying last week (or earlier) already.
Morgan Vening wrote: Latest PBWU Of course, gRifts gets 4 full paragraphs, including a release date, of sorts (last week of April, maybe). And everyone who's seen it has been blown away! spank spank spank. If it launches on time (and I'm not taking bets on that) it'll provide an interesting commentary section, that's for sure.
change GRifts with RRT and its the same thing he told us when RRT came out. also thanks for the heads up of Kevin giving a thumbs up on that other KS I backed out of it, anything PB and/or Kevin touches or is associated with or approves is tainted with his stench.
TalonZahn wrote: Good news though, they are selling their "collectibles" that include Star Wars items, and they have EBay store.
That doesn't seem like a totally desperate move for money.
At all.
Kevin has been pimping his little eBay store for literally years at this point. It's often near the end, so it might be something we skip regularly, but it has gotten substantial mockery over the years.
Not that it isn't worthy of mockery, but it's definitely not new.
Personally, even though it is only April, I am really looking forward to the promises of 2018. Kevin will tell us that 2018 will be the year of the RRT relaunch (the third year in a row) and we will absolutely get our stuff (the sixth year to be promised).
n815e wrote: Kevin is hoping to retire on that ebay money...
Personally, even though it is only April, I am really looking forward to the promises of 2018. Kevin will tell us that 2018 will be the year of the RRT relaunch (the third year in a row) and we will absolutely get our stuff (the sixth year to be promised).
well then he better hope it sells soon since i've noticed a drop in the collectibles market, a notable drop guess people don't have money to burn like they used, or at least the ones who have nostalgia about it.
TalonZahn wrote: Good news though, they are selling their "collectibles" that include Star Wars items, and they have EBay store.
That doesn't seem like a totally desperate move for money.
At all.
Kevin has been pimping his little eBay store for literally years at this point. It's often near the end, so it might be something we skip regularly, but it has gotten substantial mockery over the years.
Not that it isn't worthy of mockery, but it's definitely not new.
Guess I never noticed it.
I always skip to the RRT part, but had to *really* look this time and noticed that.
Forar wrote: Kevin has been pimping his little eBay store for literally years at this point. It's often near the end, so it might be something we skip regularly, but it has gotten substantial mockery over the years.
Not that it isn't worthy of mockery, but it's definitely not new.
Guess I never noticed it.
I always skip to the RRT part, but had to *really* look this time and noticed that.
I had a similar experience where I wrote up a para pointing out the "Exclusives" no longer are exclusive. But it nagged at me, and I realized I'd done so six months ago when it was first offered. I skipped over it that often, I'd forgotten it was a thing.
I honestly doubt there's anyone anywhere who reads the entirety of a PBWU. Let alone every week. The amount of retread and copypasta and poor formatting (put some image alignment into your advertising pieces you jackass! So much grey space!), that it just makes your eyes glaze over.
I mean it's pretty clear that for a long while, noone at PB was reading them either. I distinctly remember several times they'd have a scheduled release date of (for example) March, in their April newsletter. That the article had been copypasted so often without being checked, that the scheduled release date had passed with no sign of the book being completed.
Hell, for the most part I just Ctrl-F "tactics" and then "robotech" to see if I'd missed anything. If Kevin isn't going to put any real effort into writing it, I'm not going to put that much effort into reading it.
n815e wrote: Kevin is hoping to retire on that ebay money...
Personally, even though it is only April, I am really looking forward to the promises of 2018. Kevin will tell us that 2018 will be the year of the RRT relaunch (the third year in a row) and we will absolutely get our stuff (the sixth year to be promised).
well then he better hope it sells soon since i've noticed a drop in the collectibles market, a notable drop guess people don't have money to burn like they used, or at least the ones who have nostalgia about it.
Like this Kickstarter has demonstrated, most forms of nostalgia seem to lead to more cost than it is worth.
But when companies like Disney takes a good IP like Star Wars and "dust it off" it is a living product where it seems like it is without end.
Talizvar wrote: Like this Kickstarter has demonstrated, most forms of nostalgia seem to lead to more cost than it is worth.
But when companies like Disney takes a good IP like Star Wars and "dust it off" it is a living product where it seems like it is without end.
problem with Disney's brand of commercialization it can kill a collectible market like no ones business.
Asterios wrote: problem with Disney's brand of commercialization it can kill a collectible market like no ones business.
I feel that having a growing universe with various media fleshing it out is better than scrounging for the relics that remain of a bygone IP.
Clone Wars, Rebels, The Force Awakens, Rogue-One, SW: Battelfront and soon part 2... material is cranked out and keeps me happy seeing Star Wars live-on.
Tabletop war-gaming has more stuff than you can shake a stick at with Fantasy Fight Games.
My kids are as excited now as I was around their age when the original trilogy was being released.
I remember I think around the age of 12yrs this was the #1 toy for me and was $20 at the time:
I had one of the big Gakken 1/35 Alphas. It was a Scott Bernard model.
I bought it at a shop named Winns. I remember it was priced at $20. I didn't have $20. So I found something with a $10 price sticker, carefully peeled it off, and put it on the Alpha I wanted. I sweated bullets while I was checking out. Not something I'm proud of, but that was how I got it.
I loaned it to my best friend in exchange for borrowing his Teenagers From Outer Space RPG book. I asked for it back on several occasions, but he kept on "forgetting". The last I saw it was in the trunk of his car. I said, "Hey, my Alpha!" and he hurriedly closed the trunk and told me that it belonged to someone else. I never did give him his Teenagers From Outer Space book back because of that. He was probably fine with that.
I had one of each of the size categories of the Gakken Alphas. The mid size one was pretty neat in retrospect, but I didn't like it at the time because of all the partsforming. I have no idea what happened to mine. I still have a lot of the parts for it, but no figure.
The tiny Gakken Alpha was crap. I probably threw that one away.
But I really wish I had that big Alpha again. It was soooo much better than the Toynami Masterpiece, and will probably still be better than the upcoming Evolution Toy version. One day I'll just have to break down and pay the over $200 used ones go for on ebay. Maybe if I can quit buying Arcadia and Bandai Valkyries for a while.
Today is the 4th anniversary of the launch of the RRT Kickstarter. As an added kick in the teeth to the fact that for the second week there is literally no RRT news, the picture used to link it on the FB page is Robotech art, and after the obligatory gRifts mention, he spends a full page advertising a reprint of 30yr old Robotech RPG books.
Kevin explicitly says you can use them as reference material for your RRT games. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar knell.
Last thing regarding RRT, the GenCon segment again makes a big deal about the RRT Tournament in the title, but there is zero actual information in the text. First para is talk to NMI about running events (I'd rather eat glass), and the second is "stop by the booth!".
The gRifts mention is still pushing a timeline that I'm not sure Kevin should be pushing. Cause Carmen should be setting that timeframe, and while he probably wants it to launch then, having the flexibility to change it (Kevin literally says " in about 7-9 days when the Kickstarter launches". And while there's been some recent movement on the Rogue Heroes FB page, it's unclear exactly how close to ready it is. Thankfully, Kevin's reputation with release dates is such that most people expect it to launch some time in October.
Speaking of release dates, no dates have slid. But it's currently Arsenal (May), Atlanteans (May), Gardens (June), Dark Designs (June), Disavowed (Summer), Face of Death (Summer). So, two books in the next month, two the month after, and two three months after that. I'm sure Kevin will keep that schedule.
Side note, Dark Designs? RAW Preorder option March 22nd, where they declared a 150 limited print run. Available March 31st, where they shipped "multitudes". Still available and besides "While Stocks Last", there's no "We're running low". Yeah, things must be going wonderfully at Palladium Books that they can't shift 150 copies of the first gaming material they've published this year. Obviously.
Well, they're not cards, so what was he thinking he could sell 150 so quickly?
If we're swapping toy stories, my first run-in with Robotech was the toys - a cousin had two small transformable veritechs I ended up playing with one afternoon. He told me about the cartoon, but it wasn't playing in our area (yet). A short while later, I happened to catch it on TV at the first episode. I about lost my mind when Rick came up through the clouds and the sky lit up with explosions. Quickly followed by the realization that the guys getting whacked in the veritechs weren't parachuting out to safety like they were in G.I. Joe. Something about all that made me realize that this was different - and it wasn't a "kiddie" show.
I had a wide variety of the toys in the 80's - a couple Alpha models that were sold as Gobot's Leader One, the matchbox die cast Robotech Defender battloids, and the various Robotech Defender models (including the veritech models). At some point, I even picked up a die cast Monster. Out of all of those toys from back then my favorite was the Jetfire transformer my brother had. He sold that thing off just prior to going into the Air Force, wish he'd let me keep it.
A few years after the toys went out of style, I managed to find a Robotech 3 1/2" Veritech sitting the back of a local store, on discount. Figured that was the last Robotech item I'd ever see. I was quite happen, when just a couple years later I got was the Robotech Masterpiece Rook's red Alpha - I bought it at the Japan pavilion at Disneyworld in 1995.
Got a few reprints of items in the following years, enough so I could do a 28mm Robotech/Battletech game if I really wanted too.
Side note, Dark Designs? RAW Preorder option March 22nd, where they declared a 150 limited print run. Available March 31st, where they shipped "multitudes". Still available and besides "While Stocks Last", there's no "We're running low". Yeah, things must be going wonderfully at Palladium Books that they can't shift 150 copies of the first gaming material they've published this year. Obviously.
Those unpolished books have a very limited audience of Palladium collectors or super fans of a particular setting that can't wait until the actual book gets released (or, perhaps, for those who doubt it will get released given PB's schedule).
150 manuscript copies for an unpublished work? That's optimistic thinking right there that 150 people would want to buy them.
Side note, Dark Designs? RAW Preorder option March 22nd, where they declared a 150 limited print run. Available March 31st, where they shipped "multitudes". Still available and besides "While Stocks Last", there's no "We're running low". Yeah, things must be going wonderfully at Palladium Books that they can't shift 150 copies of the first gaming material they've published this year. Obviously.
Those unpolished books have a very limited audience of Palladium collectors or super fans of a particular setting that can't wait until the actual book gets released (or, perhaps, for those who doubt it will get released given PB's schedule).
150 manuscript copies for an unpublished work? That's optimistic thinking right there that 150 people would want to buy them.
Normally, I'd agree, even for the fanaticism that afflicts the people who still buy PB products. Additionally, if there was a narrow timeframe between raw and publication, or if PB had a fairly significant release schedule. But that's why I pointed it out. Since at least the start of 2016 (so 16+ months), PB have printed a total of two books. And while PB keep promising new product, they consistently fall short.
So I guess I am a little surprised. Granted, I don't know exactly how different a raw copy is, to the final print, but it's not like PB production quality is a great step up (black and white two column printed text on matte paper). So I can't see it being THAT different. So getting it months, if not years early (yeah, Kevin says June or July, but he's way more likely to be wrong than right), not being that big a deal.
This is the only reason I still read the Palladium games updates.. for gems like this..
Closing thoughts about this and that
I got in some excellent hours of writing this week on a couple of different new Rifts books. I don’t know how that was possible with everything else going on, but I did and I was hot.
After that I was almost terrified to continue reading.. but it did stir some images in my head that I would rather not have...
Honestly, when I am typing I get up to about 85 words a minute, about 65 at a leisurely pace. If Kevin were to actually go nonstop at about the same pace, he could do between 10K to 7K words in two hours. He'd probably wipe out a Starbucks for the coffee he'd need to perform that, though.
However, I've been told on a good day, most professional writers can do about 1K-2K words for a day (that's not just transcribing, but actually coming up with ideas - Stephen King is a 2K writer).
If I were to guess, I'd say Kevin writes slower than JRR Tolkien speed - about 150 words a day. That'd put a 96-page sourcebook (~28.8K words) finished in 192 days - or about one book every 6.4 months.
Note that "1 page" of writing is about 300 words, so at 2 books a year, he's averaging half a page a day.
At 300 words per page, that's over 2k words per day of straight writing. But that's when you know what you're going to write. Th prep leading up to that brings the pace down. I'd agree with 1k words daily as a good overall rate for a professional writer.
JohnHwangDD wrote: At 300 words per page, that's over 2k words per day of straight writing. But that's when you know what you're going to write. Th prep leading up to that brings the pace down. I'd agree with 1k words daily as a good overall rate for a professional writer.
You and Stormonu are making a poor assumption.
Kevin's not a professional writer. He's so far beyond that. He revolutionizes the genre. He revolutionizes all genres. Even ones he doesn't have an interest in, like zombies.
Don't believe me? Just ask him. He'll tell you himself. Humility? He thinks he's much more humble than you would understand.
So 2K a day? Pshaw. Bet he can do 3K. 5K if he's really inspired, and he's always really inspired. Again, just ask him.
Well its 4 years now with this Kickstarter no end in sight. I find it funny that PB is selling Robotech RPG books as PDF now. I think they should done this back in 2013 and they should have done the whole line of books. But that me I would brought all then like I did with the whole Battletech line. I find it strange that PB doing this now. I wonder if HG is going drop PB from Robotech it a thought.
DEZOAT wrote: Well its 4 years now with this Kickstarter no end in sight. I find it funny that PB is selling Robotech RPG books as PDF now. I think they should done this back in 2013 and they should have done the whole line of books. But that me I would brought all then like I did with the whole Battletech line. I find it strange that PB doing this now. I wonder if HG is going drop PB from Robotech it a thought.
Regarding the PDFs, it'd have made sense, but at the time of the Kickstarter Kevin was still a luddite when it came to PDF's and DriveThru. I think financial stressors more than an awakening forced that to change. If true, you can thank the failure of RRT for the RPG going fully digital.
As for HG dropping them, short of the live action movie coming out (and I will remain skeptical until I hear that primary shooting has concluded with no lawsuit), and HG being free and clear of their Japanese counterparts regarding IP rights, it's never. going. to. happen.
Simply put. HG's mismanagement of the IP is second only to Kevin's mismanagement. There's simply no other company that will pay them for a "legacy" IP that's basically been abandoned for 30+ years. And with the added stink that RRT has put on the brand? I think any company that would volunteer to do so, would be much better off taking on any other IP instead. Or just making their own. HG and PB are together to the end. They deserve each other. Incompetency living on decades past success. Times two.
Morgan Vening wrote: Simply put. HG's mismanagement of the IP is second only to Kevin's mismanagement. There's simply no other company that will pay them for a "legacy" IP that's basically been abandoned for 30+ years. And with the added stink that RRT has put on the brand? I think any company that would volunteer to do so, would be much better off taking on any other IP instead. Or just making their own. HG and PB are together to the end. They deserve each other. Incompetency living on decades past success. Times two.
Wait wait wait. Let's not overinflate RRT's importance. If any major film studio sees sufficient value in this franchise to sink money into, RRT's liabilities is a bloody drop in the bucket. The grand total raised isn't that big a sum in the movie entertainment world, and like it or not, PB did deliver Wave 1. The quickest and easiest way for any sufficiently interested film studio is simply to petty cash out the refunds.
No, the primary reason why the movie isn't happening is because the story is simply dated; 30 years of neglect is a lot to dust off and it's hard to build a rapport with today's core audience based on the old story. Anything that comes out will basically be recognizable to us by only the boilerplate title, and it's pretty much as good as a totally new story universe -- bolting the Robotech title over it is not very useful at all.
Morgan Vening wrote: Simply put. HG's mismanagement of the IP is second only to Kevin's mismanagement. There's simply no other company that will pay them for a "legacy" IP that's basically been abandoned for 30+ years. And with the added stink that RRT has put on the brand? I think any company that would volunteer to do so, would be much better off taking on any other IP instead. Or just making their own. HG and PB are together to the end. They deserve each other. Incompetency living on decades past success. Times two.
Wait wait wait. Let's not overinflate RRT's importance. If any major film studio sees sufficient value in this franchise to sink money into, RRT's liabilities is a bloody drop in the bucket. The grand total raised isn't that big a sum in the movie entertainment world, and like it or not, PB did deliver Wave 1. The quickest and easiest way for any sufficiently interested film studio is simply to petty cash out the refunds.
You don't even need to take it that far. Odds are any movie won't have anything even remotely similar to what Palladium has already made molds of. So apart from having the same name, people looking at the box wouldn't see how what they were holding in their hand (and covered in dust, if it's sitting in some FLGS) had anything to do with that movie that flopped last month.
And I do say "flopped" because, let's face it, it's Sony.
Morgan Vening wrote: Simply put. HG's mismanagement of the IP is second only to Kevin's mismanagement. There's simply no other company that will pay them for a "legacy" IP that's basically been abandoned for 30+ years. And with the added stink that RRT has put on the brand? I think any company that would volunteer to do so, would be much better off taking on any other IP instead. Or just making their own. HG and PB are together to the end. They deserve each other. Incompetency living on decades past success. Times two.
Wait wait wait. Let's not overinflate RRT's importance. If any major film studio sees sufficient value in this franchise to sink money into, RRT's liabilities is a bloody drop in the bucket. The grand total raised isn't that big a sum in the movie entertainment world, and like it or not, PB did deliver Wave 1. The quickest and easiest way for any sufficiently interested film studio is simply to petty cash out the refunds.
No, the primary reason why the movie isn't happening is because the story is simply dated; 30 years of neglect is a lot to dust off and it's hard to build a rapport with today's core audience based on the old story. Anything that comes out will basically be recognizable to us by only the boilerplate title, and it's pretty much as good as a totally new story universe -- bolting the Robotech title over it is not very useful at all.
I think you misinterpreted the argument.
I was meaning that WITHOUT the movie, no game company is going to outpay Palladium for the IP rights. The "never. going. to. happen" was in reference to any company outbidding PB for the rights, absent a movie.
WITH the movie, I can't see PB retaining the rights regardless, because I don't think a movie studio would take on the project without control of the IP, including gaming rights. And I doubt PB could either pay for what the new market value would be, or that the licensor would consider PB a good fit. Additionally, the new company wouldn't be liable for the refund costs regardless. The only reason to do so would be for PR purposes, and I'm honestly not sure they'd bother. This is PB's crapstorm.
That also doesn't take into account I don't expect a Live Action Robotech movie to have any of the iconic mecha except as a "legacy" item. All new mecha from both sides would be "transfomerized". Same general concept, completely redesigned look.
lets face it any Robotech movie that comes out is gonna be like Bay's Transformers, nothing will be like the old school Robotech, if Sony buys the IP rights for the movie they also will get all IP rights associated with the movie, that is Hollywood for you, just like the movie rights they got from Marvel, anything associated with the movies Sony has the rights too. PB will not even be a consideration, furthermore HG will not give up such rights so Sony will not acquire such rights, the whole Robotech movie is a joke, unless Sony decides to contest HG for the rights to Macross, which is a better possibility.
I was thinking more like Speed Racer.. a lot of money and advertising thrown at it and still a crap movie...
But I do agree, I don't see how anyone can not look at the Robotech IP and not see the stench of RTT..
Mostly because hard core nerd gaming (I'm talking stuff you can't get at Target) has such a small footprint, that it doesn't make even a blip when you're comparing it to mass market media.
Hey, I like the Speed Racer movie. It's not Oscar material. But it has a cool look and it doesn't take itself seriously.
The RRT fiasco has had a 0.1% negative impact on the overall Robotech IP from a Hollywood or major corporation point of view. Really, it's so completely insignificant that it just doesn't matter to the brand.
Ugh, I don't know which is more unlikely to happen - a live-action Robotech movie or a Rifts movie...
HG pretty much proved Robotech is a lost cause with the Shadow Chronicle release - bad CGI and a confusing story has just made it worse. The reaction to Robotech Academy clinched it.
Even if the movie is made, it'll be bad. Transformers and the Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers movie have proved that to me.
And this ... this "reinvisioning" of other's anime is why I wish the scum at Harmony Gold weren't in charge of the IP....
Stormonu wrote: Ugh, I don't know which is more unlikely to happen - a live-action Robotech movie or a Rifts movie...
HG pretty much proved Robotech is a lost cause with the Shadow Chronicle release - bad CGI and a confusing story has just made it worse. The reaction to Robotech Academy clinched it.
Granted, it's just Wiki as the source, but it looks like it was much more than that.
After the Robotech Movie, we had Robotech Wars (no progress), Robotech Sentinels (aborted aftter 3 eps), Robotech 3000 (trailer hated by test audiences), Mars Force (development hell), Shadow Chronicles (mixed reviews, sequel promised but abandoned*), Live Love Alive, Before the War (due next year apparently, based on Macross Zero**), Shadow Rising (the aforementioned cancelled sequel), and Academy (the debacle that was).
* Apparently HG were still promising the sequel in 2008, even though they'd abandoned it due to creative differences with their partner in 2007. And that it was then going to be rebooted several years later (2012), and nothing came of it. Why does that sound familiar?
** Not sure how that passes the smell test. AFAIKHG argued they had the rights (never properly challenged, and the source of the whole copyright shennanigans) to use the original three series, but it's unclear how that'll be rectified for a series that far after when they claimed they held the rights. I'll believe it when I see it).
Then the Live Action.
Sep 2007 with Warner Bros and Tobey McGuire producing.
June 2008, writer and two producers brought on board.
Late 2008, new writers brought on board.
Early 2009, one producer bails.
June 2009, new writers brought on board (apparently the 4th team, though only 2 listed previously)
Early 2013, first director announced.
July 2013, DeCaprio announced.
Feb 2015, new writers (at least the fifth), and a second director.
March 2015, Sony take over.
April 2015, third announced director (James Wan)
April 2016, deal between Sony and HG not yet finalized.
So yeah, not a great lineage of success they're having there. Incompetent management, shoddy product, lots of promises and no real progress. Craploads of missed deadlines.
There's a reason PB have the license. Because PB and HG are kindred spirits. Living on the success of the past, that past being built heavily on a foundation of someone else's work.
Morgan Vening wrote: There's a reason PB have the license. Because PB and HG are kindred spirits. Living on the success of the past, that past being built heavily on a foundation of someone else's work.
Every once and a while this forum produces a gem of truth like this.
The most maddening part is they try to make it look like they came up with the core ideas.
Couldn't we just take the movie Top Gun as it stands and just have the planes transform?
I think the "plot" would need little work.
Take the same imagery but in a Robotech setting: it would work.
Morgan Vening wrote: There's a reason PB have the license. Because PB and HG are kindred spirits. Living on the success of the past, that past being built heavily on a foundation of someone else's work.
Every once and a while this forum produces a gem of truth like this.
The most maddening part is they try to make it look like they came up with the core ideas.
Couldn't we just take the movie Top Gun as it stands and just have the planes transform?
I think the "plot" would need little work.
Take the same imagery but in a Robotech setting: it would work.
WOW !! That great idea there Talizar for the Robotech movie. Well will see what HG and Sony do. Now It looks like I'am being call a troll on PB facebook but I'am no troll I' AM THE OLDZOAT. I threw gloves done and told the White Knights and PB fanboys that they better put a lot money in the Rift BG KS . I better see 7000 backer and 2 mil by the end of it.
Entirely anecdotal, but that list starting in 2007 is maybe half the story.
Yes, obviously fans have clamored for more of the series and a live action adaptation for decades, but I totally remember the Robotech live action movie being listed as being 'in development' in issues of Cinescape in the 90's, back when magazines held substantially more relevance.
I guess that'd be the ancient darker times, before the internet had nearly as much prevalence, and this would be the modern series.
Basically this gakshow goes so far back it gets a 'two era' treatment like Dr. Who.
Genoside07 wrote: I was thinking more like Speed Racer.. a lot of money and advertising thrown at it and still a crap movie...
But I do agree, I don't see how anyone can not look at the Robotech IP and not see the stench of RTT..
Hey.. so i am new here.. hell i got a membership just so i could talk about this.. odd i never did this when i was a 40k player..
so i have a small request if possible.. since it looks like paladium isnt going to do anything anytime soon do we have a series of links or anything to any of the cool 3d models that are out there in the unofficial capacity? is that bad to ask for because man i really want to get some.. wasnt sure if you guys had places you preferred or knew of that had some goodies we can use in place of the wave 2 stuff that will probably never arrive.. Someone was talking abou their headless armored valkerie, id buy that where do i sign? or is there a source for this stuff already? anything to help me out, i got this game on the nostalgia trip and REALLY want it to work(clearly i am not the only one) and hearing all this is really disheartening as i was hoping to play some cool games..
oldschoolroguetrader wrote: Hey.. so i am new here.. hell i got a membership just so i could talk about this.. odd i never did this when i was a 40k player..
so i have a small request if possible.. since it looks like paladium isnt going to do anything anytime soon do we have a series of links or anything to any of the cool 3d models that are out there in the unofficial capacity? is that bad to ask for because man i really want to get some.. wasnt sure if you guys had places you preferred or knew of that had some goodies we can use in place of the wave 2 stuff that will probably never arrive.. Someone was talking abou their headless armored valkerie, id buy that where do i sign? or is there a source for this stuff already? anything to help me out, i got this game on the nostalgia trip and REALLY want it to work(clearly i am not the only one) and hearing all this is really disheartening as i was hoping to play some cool games..
what are people using for armored zentradi?
Pretty much all the minis for almost everything from all three generations has been done by people. Not many will talk about them though, especially with an unknown since HG is known for cracking down on anything they think might threaten their IP. Funny enough those that they scared away might be the only way to save RRT.
well here is the thing.. if they have the minis on a site like shapeways then they will be found by HG if they really want to and they can send out the C&Ds then.. they probably wont since they really stand to lose little money since the people they put in charge of doing this are.. well not doing this.
any list will only help us.. on top of that HG can pay interns to do what i wont, and that is to comb through this thread and find links or names of people who have said they made stuff..
oldschoolroguetrader wrote: well here is the thing.. if they have the minis on a site like shapeways then they will be found by HG if they really want to and they can send out the C&Ds then.. they probably wont since they really stand to lose little money since the people they put in charge of doing this are.. well not doing this.
any list will only help us.. on top of that HG can pay interns to do what i wont, and that is to comb through this thread and find links or names of people who have said they made stuff..
The difference is the rules apply differently to making for personal use, and making publicly available. If I want to make an exact replica of a Glaug, there's really no law against that. If I try to sell it (even at cost), give it away (especially in large volumes), or use it in promotional material, THAT is when I run afoul of the law.
So, what most others have done here for the most part (some have stepped over bounds) aren't in contravention of copyrights. Arguably up until they do what you ask.
oldschoolroguetrader wrote: well here is the thing.. if they have the minis on a site like shapeways then they will be found by HG if they really want to and they can send out the C&Ds then.. they probably wont since they really stand to lose little money since the people they put in charge of doing this are.. well not doing this.
any list will only help us.. on top of that HG can pay interns to do what i wont, and that is to comb through this thread and find links or names of people who have said they made stuff..
The difference is the rules apply differently to making for personal use, and making publicly available. If I want to make an exact replica of a Glaug, there's really no law against that. If I try to sell it (even at cost), give it away (especially in large volumes), or use it in promotional material, THAT is when I run afoul of the law.
So, what most others have done here for the most part (some have stepped over bounds) aren't in contravention of copyrights. Arguably up until they do what you ask.
even doing items for yourself could run afoul of some laws, there are ways of doing custom items for yourself and such even some commission work but the law is a bit iffy on some things.
like those people who put up some famous cartoon characters on their day care wall and got a C&D from an evil "rodent" ran corporation that shall not be named.
A looooong time ago, before this debacle began, PB used to have metal minis for some of the Robotech stuff. Do they still have any of it and does anyone have pictures of it - I can't remember anything other than a battlepod and a valkerie model for the line-up? It's been years, but I never bought any so I'm thinking it must have been pretty god-awful, even for its time.
Which reminds me, a possible legal avenue for some of the older designs would be to buy the old "unseen" battletech minis - (LAM) Wasp, (LAM) Stinger, (LAM) Phoenix Hawk, Crusader, Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Longbow, and Rifleman. There's also the "Ost" mechs (Ostol & Ostscout?), but I think in Battletech they had arms added to them. I don't think either version of Zentraidi power armor ever emerged in battletech.
Stormonu wrote: A looooong time ago, before this debacle began, PB used to have metal minis for some of the Robotech stuff. Do they still have any of it and does anyone have pictures of it - I can't remember anything other than a battlepod and a valkerie model for the line-up? It's been years, but I never bought any so I'm thinking it must have been pretty god-awful, even for its time.
Which reminds me, a possible legal avenue for some of the older designs would be to buy the old "unseen" battletech minis - (LAM) Wasp, (LAM) Stinger, (LAM) Phoenix Hawk, Crusader, Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Longbow, and Rifleman. There's also the "Ost" mechs (Ostol & Ostscout?), but I think in Battletech they had arms added to them. I don't think either version of Zentraidi power armor ever emerged in battletech.
The mini in question were the Dark Horse made mini I believe they were in 1/160 scale in lead. All I remember were all three Veritech fighter mode which I may add were easy to build with all the different heads, All the destroid but no Mac II . The Zentraedi had all four Battle Pods and the Officer Battle pod. I don't think Zentraedi Power armor ( male &female) were done. I know they were price around about $5.75 to 7.79 per mini which were high at the time. That why the guys were used the Battletech mini instead at time. I know the one I sold on e-bay went for BIG BUCKS and over sea to Germany about 7 years ago.
I still have all three modes of my VF-1S. (They were sold with all the head parts for the A, J, and S) Although they've seen better days.
I always regretted not being able to get (not being able to afford) the "Excalibur" destroid. I also would have liked a "Raidar X", but I don't think I ever saw one of those for sale.
Palladium wasn't associated with those miniatures. In fact, it was clear even back then that Unca Kev didn't want to give them any promotion. I forget if the books even had anything but the most brief passing mention of them in between urgings to buy Heroes Unlimited and Palladium Fantasy. I think I only discovered they existed by seeing them in the LGS one day back in 1986.
oldschoolroguetrader wrote: well here is the thing.. if they have the minis on a site like shapeways then they will be found by HG if they really want to and they can send out the C&Ds then.. they probably wont since they really stand to lose little money since the people they put in charge of doing this are.. well not doing this.
any list will only help us.. on top of that HG can pay interns to do what i wont, and that is to comb through this thread and find links or names of people who have said they made stuff..
The difference is the rules apply differently to making for personal use, and making publicly available. If I want to make an exact replica of a Glaug, there's really no law against that. If I try to sell it (even at cost), give it away (especially in large volumes), or use it in promotional material, THAT is when I run afoul of the law.
So, what most others have done here for the most part (some have stepped over bounds) aren't in contravention of copyrights. Arguably up until they do what you ask.
even doing items for yourself could run afoul of some laws, there are ways of doing custom items for yourself and such even some commission work but the law is a bit iffy on some things.
like those people who put up some famous cartoon characters on their day care wall and got a C&D from an evil "rodent" ran corporation that shall not be named.
HG is not disney and i have a feeling they wouldnt much care about this. sort of like all the knock off doctor who miniatures that used to abound it would take something larger to make them go away.
and the worst that would happen is getting a letter saying stop that.. disney unlike either HG or PB has lots of money to spend on interns and lawyers. it wouldnt be worth it for a company like HG ror pB to sue you into oblivion onthe couple hundred bucks you may have made making them.
i am also pretty sure that most of you download music and stream movies from alternate sources like daily motion and youtube. so i find it funny to see push back on this front
i am also pretty sure that most of you download music and stream movies from alternate sources like daily motion and youtube. so i find it funny to see push back on this front
I don't, furthermore I'm not willing to put my neck on the gallows for any reason, you claim HG won't do anything and yet there is history of them doing stuff. I don't even give out my files to anyone for them to print up minis and such, I'm a firm believer of CYA and I do it well.
I'm not a mod, but I feel they've been pretty clear that IP infringing talk is verboten here, so whatever we may or may not believe isn't relevant.
For example, talk recasting isn't permitted forum wide, and while I would say we've been given substantial leeway when it comes to stuff molded or 3D printed for personal use, I don't expect many people are looking to test the boundaries of that leniency.
I'm not familiar with the existing on this matter (Mike?), but there's a Facebook group or two out there that might be a bit more easygoing with the information being sought.
Forar wrote: I'm not a mod, but I feel they've been pretty clear that IP infringing talk is verboten here, so whatever we may or may not believe isn't relevant.
The searches are readily done.
Heck, searching a few user names and a well known 3D printer pretty much will give everything a person would want.
The entire idea is so that those who paid for an IP and want to make money off of it should be able to do so.
It is only fair in the marketplace that those who create the original property are not discouraged from further creation because people immediately steal their ideas.
I like my money to go to creative people who's work I enjoy so I get to see more of it.
Unfortunately Palladium has created a bit of a strange situation where much wanted product has had about a 4 year pause and some of us are literally dying off during that wait period.
Let what your conscience and the law dictate your actions and possibly a moderator if you get too out of control.
Forar wrote: 20 years ago I would've dropped everything I could scrimp and scrounge for to get in on that.
Now... well, I guess it'll be interesting. I hope Carmen is doing well, and that he doesn't see a fraction of the shenanigans that this campaign has.
If nothing else, it'd be amusing to see him competently deliver in a timely fashion. I suspect that'd drive Kevin crazy.
but that won't be the case, he will have to raise about $500K minimum to make this project real and most likely more, problem is he will have a low funded price of say $100K or maybe less and he won't get much more then that for it, since he will be charging about $50 for a board game with but a handful of minis which will not garner much attention, he will most likely bring in $170K and that will barely be enough for the taxs, KS fees and import fees which will be coming up with Trump's new plans for making America Great, which i'm sure Carmen has not taken into account, then there will be the cost of molds and printers and so forth, the game will not get produced ever.
Forar wrote: I hope Carmen is doing well, and that he doesn't see a fraction of the shenanigans that this campaign has.
Carmen is bipolar manic-depressive, and almost committed suicide over mere 2-hour exchange of words. When it's 100s or 1000s of backers putting pressure on him to deliver, on top of being deeply in the hole to Kevin for license fees, a nervous breakdown is pretty likely. Especially if people poke at him as Kevin's obvious proxy surrogate. If it drives him to suicide, I want no part of that.
GabrielV wrote: I still have all three modes of my VF-1S. (They were sold with all the head parts for the A, J, and S) Although they've seen better days.
I always regretted not being able to get (not being able to afford) the "Excalibur" destroid. I also would have liked a "Raidar X", but I don't think I ever saw one of those for sale.
Palladium wasn't associated with those miniatures. In fact, it was clear even back then that Unca Kev didn't want to give them any promotion. I forget if the books even had anything but the most brief passing mention of them in between urgings to buy Heroes Unlimited and Palladium Fantasy. I think I only discovered they existed by seeing them in the LGS one day back in 1986.
I ' ll say this all of the Destroids were done and I had the Raidar X mint in the package. I sold it way back on e-bay it went to Germany. I have some Excalibur and Gladiator loose left to keep. I brought all my Robotech and Battletech stuff from Hobby Kingdom on 6mile and Gratiot in Detroit Michigan. They long gone now that the other problem there so few Game and Game Hobby shops left now. I don't know who Dark Horse mini company was but the who sculpt mini were same that did Battletech for Ral Partha Summer was the name on the package. I know what you mean about the game shop selling of the minis the Tactical Battle Pod was hard get all the other Battle Pods and Officer pods were easy to get go figure that one out. I hope that helps
Forar wrote: I hope Carmen is doing well, and that he doesn't see a fraction of the shenanigans that this campaign has.
Carmen is bipolar manic-depressive, and almost committed suicide over mere 2-hour exchange of words. When it's 100s or 1000s of backers putting pressure on him to deliver, on top of being deeply in the hole to Kevin for license fees, a nervous breakdown is pretty likely. Especially if people poke at him as Kevin's obvious proxy surrogate. If it drives him to suicide, I want no part of that.
You're assuming he isn't a sociopathic grifter like Kevin. Think about it this way...
The crazy exchange that led to much sympathy-garnering attention was something that could/would have affected funding. Which affects the amount of money he'll see from his upcoming scam.
However, once the project has funded, as our buddy Kevin Simbieda has shown, the amount of actual pressure from that point is zero. Why take a drastic action? Why work on it? You've got your money.
Hell, the WKOPB will have another arrow in their quiver - "Hey dumbass, they didn't deliver RRT. You thought they'd deliver this one? It's your fault, not theirs!
That exchange doesn't engender sympathy - it engendered pity. Carmen is a pitable man, not a sympathetic one. He got what he deserved.
However, his family didn't. And that's where I draw the line.
If it was just him (or better, Kevin), I'd break out the popcorn and join the betting pools for his nervous breakdown, suicide attempt, and An Hero Award. But if the dude has a family, then joining the crowd to shout "Jump! Jump!" as he stands at the precipice is a tad unseemly.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That exchange doesn't engender sympathy - it engendered pity. Carmen is a pitable man, not a sympathetic one. He got what he deserved.
However, his family didn't. And that's where I draw the line.
If it was just him (or better, Kevin), I'd break out the popcorn and join the betting pools for his nervous breakdown, suicide attempt, and An Hero Award. But if the dude has a family, then joining the crowd to shout "Jump! Jump!" as he stands at the precipice is a tad unseemly.
and yet by his continuing to do something so stressful and strenuous he is even saying jump jump to himself.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That exchange doesn't engender sympathy - it engendered pity. Carmen is a pitable man, not a sympathetic one. He got what he deserved.
However, his family didn't. And that's where I draw the line.
If it was just him (or better, Kevin), I'd break out the popcorn and join the betting pools for his nervous breakdown, suicide attempt, and An Hero Award. But if the dude has a family, then joining the crowd to shout "Jump! Jump!" as he stands at the precipice is a tad unseemly.
and yet by his continuing to do something so stressful and strenuous he is even saying jump jump to himself.
@Asterios: This statement seems to be assuming he is mentally competent to make a sound decision: he may still need help.
John has the right idea that when a person has family, you no longer have the right to risk yourself: you have responsibilities.
Every time I think of doing some incredibly fun thrill-seeking thing, I still have to think what the odds are of me getting hurt or dead and then to back away.
Being in a catamaran with a tiger shark following me was one of those wake-up moments to head back to shore.
I think of Keven and Carmen having a little parallelism there.
By letting PB/Kevin be allowed to talk about release dates is allowing them to dictate his product launch.
Them having ANY say will put stress on Carmen, especially since they have a fine history of not being involved but still willing to make speculative guesses based on no facts.
PB should respectfully be told to shut up.
JohnHwangDD wrote: That exchange doesn't engender sympathy - it engendered pity. Carmen is a pitable man, not a sympathetic one. He got what he deserved.
However, his family didn't. And that's where I draw the line.
If it was just him (or better, Kevin), I'd break out the popcorn and join the betting pools for his nervous breakdown, suicide attempt, and An Hero Award. But if the dude has a family, then joining the crowd to shout "Jump! Jump!" as he stands at the precipice is a tad unseemly.
and yet by his continuing to do something so stressful and strenuous he is even saying jump jump to himself.
@Asterios: This statement seems to be assuming he is mentally competent to make a sound decision: he may still need help.
John has the right idea that when a person has family, you no longer have the right to risk yourself: you have responsibilities.
Every time I think of doing some incredibly fun thrill-seeking thing, I still have to think what the odds are of me getting hurt or dead and then to back away.
Being in a catamaran with a tiger shark following me was one of those wake-up moments to head back to shore.
I think of Keven and Carmen having a little parallelism there.
By letting PB/Kevin be allowed to talk about release dates is allowing them to dictate his product launch.
Them having ANY say will put stress on Carmen, especially since they have a fine history of not being involved but still willing to make speculative guesses based on no facts.
PB should respectfully be told to shut up.
and where is Carmen's family? sorry if someone in my family had issues like this the last thing I would let them do is a Kickstarter with PB's name attached to it.
Asterios wrote: and where is Carmen's family? sorry if someone in my family had issues like this the last thing I would let them do is a Kickstarter with PB's name attached to it.
Lots of dynamics in a family.
Some more dysfunctional than others.
Can't say that a suicidal episode as a young man kept my mother from treating me like a piece of garbage afterward, saying I denied her the opportunity to be the grieving mother.
Trying to shockingly state that not everything is normal in the world as this Kickstarter handily points out.
Whenever someone feels suicidal it is typically because some SOB is involved making your life hell.
This is why when I find people of that bad kind of nature I have no mercy for them: you have no idea what depths they go for attention and selfishness.
Rogue Heroes has paid money to PB and one way or another enable or support them: I cannot in turn support their Kickstarter.
Carmen, however has some of my understanding and sympathy BUT he really needs to cut loose from destabilizing elements if not for himself, for his family.
Asterios wrote: and where is Carmen's family? sorry if someone in my family had issues like this the last thing I would let them do is a Kickstarter with PB's name attached to it.
Lots of dynamics in a family.
Some more dysfunctional than others.
Can't say that a suicidal episode as a young man kept my mother from treating me like a piece of garbage afterward, saying I denied her the opportunity to be the grieving mother.
Trying to shockingly state that not everything is normal in the world as this Kickstarter handily points out.
Whenever someone feels suicidal it is typically because some SOB is involved making your life hell.
This is why when I find people of that bad kind of nature I have no mercy for them: you have no idea what depths they go for attention and selfishness.
Rogue Heroes has paid money to PB and one way or another enable or support them: I cannot in turn support their Kickstarter.
Carmen, however has some of my understanding and sympathy BUT he really needs to cut loose from destabilizing elements if not for himself, for his family.
well it seems his family does not care, so not sure I can show them sympathy either, and the fact even the blind can see how bad Kevin is so cannot show
Carmen sympathy either, so no sympathy to show and something tells me this whole fiasco is going to go very bad, very bad.
Asterios wrote: well it seems his family does not care, so not sure I can show them sympathy either, and the fact even the blind can see how bad Kevin is so cannot show
Carmen sympathy either, so no sympathy to show and something tells me this whole fiasco is going to go very bad, very bad.
All that stuff goes full circle: we want sympathy for our plight of being stiffed by PB.
But cannot see that the very same thing is about to happen to a licensee getting stiffed by association.
We have zero knowledge of the financials for that family so there may be no choice but to proceed or starve for all we know.
Not sure how I got off the topic of being all outraged that I did not get my little models and Kevin has taken my toys and gone home with my money.
Outraged I tell you.
Talizvar wrote: Not sure how I got off the topic of being all outraged that I did not get my little models and Kevin has taken my toys and gone home with my money.
Outraged I tell you.
It's probably the sheer lack of actual information or progress on the actual RRTKS that's pushing things into tangential stuff. Like Crazy Carmen stirring up the RRT backer pot and creating drama on top of drama.
Well, I guess what the weekly PBWU will be all about this week.
I left my feelings on the gRifts discussion above. It is kinda sad though - I love all kinds of miniatures, and those posted look pretty good, there's just no way I am going to back it or buy it should it ever materialize in retail. Not so long as this fiasco continues.
Asterios wrote: well it seems his family does not care, so not sure I can show them sympathy either, and the fact even the blind can see how bad Kevin is so cannot show
Carmen sympathy either, so no sympathy to show and something tells me this whole fiasco is going to go very bad, very bad.
All that stuff goes full circle: we want sympathy for our plight of being stiffed by PB.
But cannot see that the very same thing is about to happen to a licensee getting stiffed by association.
We have zero knowledge of the financials for that family so there may be no choice but to proceed or starve for all we know.
Not sure how I got off the topic of being all outraged that I did not get my little models and Kevin has taken my toys and gone home with my money.
Outraged I tell you.
oh the financials are bad, Carmen sunk everything even his home into this project and he realizes it may have been a mistake especially being tied to Kevin and PB and that might have been the stressor that sent him over the edge.
the problemis Carmen is in the position he may have been better off cutting and running, but because he is sticking with it and that may end up costing him more then he is willing to lose.
Starts with yet another firesale for RRT (about 30% off MSRP). At this point, it's almost the default price. Also selling the RPG stuff.
gRifts got pushed to next Friday. Imagine that! A Palladium related project missing it's deadline. I'm shocked. Shocked I say!
Fairly lengthy section on RRT
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books wrote:We continue to move forward, plan and plot the revitalization of this game line with RRT Wave Two and many other related products and Robotech® titles. We don’t want to announce anything until we have hard details but we are working toward several exciting products and plans. Meanwhile, I want to point out that the original Robotech® RPG books from the 1980s and 1990s are being made available as PDF editions on DriveThruRPG.com and offer several ship floor plans (RDF Manual has the Prometheus and Daedalus; Zentraedi sourcebook has a number of Zentraedi ships), as well as maps and other information that you might find useful as resources for battles and objectives. Robotech® and RRT are never out of our thoughts.
Summary - Working on it, we promise. Won't show anything to prove it. BUY THE RPGS! Pablum.
On the RPG front, still flogging Dark Designs RAW, final shifted to July. Still promising May releases for two books. And a third in June.
I give this PBWU
I'd have added a fourth if they'd been stupid enough to actually mention that we're past the 4 year anniversary of the original campaign.
Genoside07 wrote: You missed the best part; Kevin is now describing things as "juicy".
Yeah that's what I look in games and RPGS.
As long as you don't connect the "Juicy" with the fact that he mentioned that he was "hot" when he was writing in his last update you won't get any untoward images in your head.
jaymz wrote: Carmen is operating out pf canada. Increase shipping costs but take away trump tariffs.
I think there's a better than even chance gRifts will ship from within the continental United States. There's a warehouse that's been run by people with 30+ years in the gaming industry that I'm sure would make a useful distribution point. Luckily, it is not 30 miles from Carmen, in Westland Michigan. They already have experience with dealing with anywhere up to 5342 orders, and are capable of shipping internationally, even if it takes them 6+ months to ship to Australia, despite assurances that all recipients would get their product prior to it being available at retail. As there doesn't seem to be any likelihood of them needing large volumes of warehouse space in the near future for either a second print run, or more importantly, a completion of the first print run, despite promises that they would do so in October of 2014, sometime in 2015, 2016, AND 2017, I'm sure they'd be happy to help.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books wrote:We continue to move forward, plan and plot the revitalization of this game line with RRT Wave Two and many other related products and Robotech® titles. We don’t want to announce anything until we have hard details but we are working toward several exciting products and plans. Meanwhile, I want to point out that the original Robotech® RPG books from the 1980s and 1990s are being made available as PDF editions on DriveThruRPG.com and offer several ship floor plans (RDF Manual has the Prometheus and Daedalus; Zentraedi sourcebook has a number of Zentraedi ships), as well as maps and other information that you might find useful as resources for battles and objectives. Robotech® and RRT are never out of our thoughts.
Yeah, make the 80's copies available as PDF's, but not the current round .
Sorry Kev, you're a few years late and not getting my dollar now.
And as for those "ship floor plans" - you could get far better from Macross fan books than the generic, squared 1980 dungeon maps they put in those books. Really, they're god-awful useless to the point you'd be better off without them.
I sold my copies a few years ago. I didn't want them anymore, and if you gave me the PDF's for free, I'd delete them. Heck, I'd even delete them if you PAID ME to download them. Go bankrupt already Palladium Books.
I don't think I've ever felt so strongly about wishing that something would wither and die, but man PB sure make that feeling boil to the top.
megatrons2nd wrote: I sold my copies a few years ago. I didn't want them anymore, and if you gave me the PDF's for free, I'd delete them. Heck, I'd even delete them if you PAID ME to download them. Go bankrupt already Palladium Books.
I don't think I've ever felt so strongly about wishing that something would wither and die, but man PB sure make that feeling boil to the top.
If only more people felt the same.
I agree completely.
Allowing PDFs is a serious change for them.
Must be scratching their heads on how SW-R Kickstarter made so much money on a "piracy rife" medium.
To see change of this nature means some motivation is out there, short on cash is the most logical.
I wonder if they are released scans as images so the text is non-searchable?
It would be the funny thing they would do.
I am sure the "big plans" all have to do with some kind of book.
The scenario book was pretty much done for them so it is within the threshold of consideration, to work on, edit and sleep on it, to eventually, release, send to printer to then receive, when finished, to stock.
Please may they run out of money "soon".
Finally actually broke down and crunched numbers. I know others have done it as well. However, based off of my pledge level plus the add ons, I have found that the Showdown would have given $810 worth of stuff, using the amounts on the campaign. My add ons were another $75. The average mark up was 65.2% over the listed items from the campaign to release. Unless they had a substantial mark up to make a profit on the Kickstarter, there is no money left.
$260-$810=$-550
My add ons wouldn't affect the loss per person.
The received items come to $410 pre mark up and $587.30 post mark up.
The outstanding items come to $400 pre mark up and $660.80 post mark up.
My personal outstanding items come to $475 pre mark up and $784.70 post mark up.
Palladium needs to learn how to do some math, because the project was a loss all the way around. They are out of money, and can not continue this project. They have horribly mismanaged their money, project, campaign, and the goodwill of it's customers.
Add a little sum of around $250k that Palladium will need to find to distribute Wave 2 if by some miracle it ever got produced.
Easy to see why a impoverished company like Palladium is NOT going to give us our new toys, but WILL lie through its teeth, to keep pusihng the nonesense that they are still working on it
While I don't disagree that Palladium have likely woefully mishandled the money, the way you've calculated things isn't the way things work.
Once setup has been paid for, a Battlecry would literally cost cents on the dollar. If a Core box cost more than $15 to produce, I'd be surprised. Quite possibly below $10. Add in another couple of dollars for the BC expansion, and a bit more for shipping from China to Michigan, and if a BC cost much more than $30 total, I'd be shocked.
When it comes to printing, both card but especially plastic, it's the initial setup and volume that's important. The cost to set up the printers, and manufacture the molds. As 6000+ Starter boxes were made for backers (allegedly ~17,000 ordered by PB), that cost gets defrayed across those. Counting back, let's say the average shipping on product is $20 out of each BC price. Cheaper for domestic, more expensive for internationals. That might seem too low for internationals, but they also paid extra. I know my packages that I was owed had $100 in shipping added).
$80 x 6000 backer BC's = $480,000 for setup. Assuming all printed material and miscellaneous components (templates, dice, etc) count for two sprues worth of cost, and there are 10 actual sprues. That's $40,000 per sprue. Which is well above what PB should have spent.
So, if PB had done their job properly, they would have still made money (not much, but some) on each Battlecry they shipped. "But why Kickstart if thats the crappy return?" I've seen some argue. Because those setup costs are done and paid for. They make a modest profit on what they sold to backers. But for any excess material (retail copies), they're making reasonable bank through distribution, and mucho bank through their own webstore, or at conventions.
The problem came with the stretch goals (there's at least another 8+ sprues to be made*). And because of mismanagement, they're going to have to do another round of retail shipping. And it's alleged (but not proven), that they spent backer funds on retail product (the extra 11K boxes I mentioned earlier) that they have had trouble shifting at regular prices. And it doesn't help that costs have increased annually for shipping and production at a rate that far outpaces anything but the riskiest of investment regarding any unspent capital.
* This does NOT count the sprues of product outside a BattleCry, like the Monster or the YF-4 as that uses a different set of math.
So, the initial project wasn't doomed to failure on the original numbers, and could quite possibly have made PB a tidy sum AND given backers what they were owed.
However, with PB's mismanagement of production, mishandling of time, mishandling of shipping, and allegedly mishandling of overstock, even if there is money unspent, the amount needed to complete the project is likely impossible to produce without PB going heavily into debt, and definitely not enough to issue refunds. And that's why backers are in this limbo of promises as Kevin tries to figure a way out, without going bankrupt.
At least Carmen appears to have been smart enough to have formed a separate LLC for his project. Assuming it funds, he can pay himself back all the money he's currently invested (which is apparently high 5 figures), after which if it goes pear shaped, he can just walk away. Kevin, trying to capitalize on his company's name, doesn't have that option as he directly tied RRT to his own business. So that's why he'll be screwed if the project "fails". Fails in a legal definition, I mean. We know it's failed in a commercial, public relations, and principled way.
Morgan Vening wrote: While I don't disagree that Palladium have likely woefully mishandled the money, the way you've calculated things isn't the way things work.
Once setup has been paid for, a Battlecry would literally cost cents on the dollar. If a Core box cost more than $15 to produce, I'd be surprised. Quite possibly below $10. Add in another couple of dollars for the BC expansion, and a bit more for shipping from China to Michigan, and if a BC cost much more than $30 total, I'd be shocked.
When it comes to printing, both card but especially plastic, it's the initial setup and volume that's important. The cost to set up the printers, and manufacture the molds. As 6000+ Starter boxes were made for backers (allegedly ~17,000 ordered by PB), that cost gets defrayed across those. Counting back, let's say the average shipping on product is $20 out of each BC price. Cheaper for domestic, more expensive for internationals. That might seem too low for internationals, but they also paid extra. I know my packages that I was owed had $100 in shipping added).
$80 x 6000 backer BC's = $480,000 for setup. Assuming all printed material and miscellaneous components (templates, dice, etc) count for two sprues worth of cost, and there are 10 actual sprues. That's $40,000 per sprue. Which is well above what PB should have spent.
So, if PB had done their job properly, they would have still made money (not much, but some) on each Battlecry they shipped. "But why Kickstart if thats the crappy return?" I've seen some argue. Because those setup costs are done and paid for. They make a modest profit on what they sold to backers. But for any excess material (retail copies), they're making reasonable bank through distribution, and mucho bank through their own webstore, or at conventions.
The problem came with the stretch goals (there's at least another 8+ sprues to be made*). And because of mismanagement, they're going to have to do another round of retail shipping. And it's alleged (but not proven), that they spent backer funds on retail product (the extra 11K boxes I mentioned earlier) that they have had trouble shifting at regular prices. And it doesn't help that costs have increased annually for shipping and production at a rate that far outpaces anything but the riskiest of investment regarding any unspent capital.
* This does NOT count the sprues of product outside a BattleCry, like the Monster or the YF-4 as that uses a different set of math.
So, the initial project wasn't doomed to failure on the original numbers, and could quite possibly have made PB a tidy sum AND given backers what they were owed.
However, with PB's mismanagement of production, mishandling of time, mishandling of shipping, and allegedly mishandling of overstock, even if there is money unspent, the amount needed to complete the project is likely impossible to produce without PB going heavily into debt, and definitely not enough to issue refunds. And that's why backers are in this limbo of promises as Kevin tries to figure a way out, without going bankrupt.
At least Carmen appears to have been smart enough to have formed a separate LLC for his project. Assuming it funds, he can pay himself back all the money he's currently invested (which is apparently high 5 figures), after which if it goes pear shaped, he can just walk away. Kevin, trying to capitalize on his company's name, doesn't have that option as he directly tied RRT to his own business. So that's why he'll be screwed if the project "fails". Fails in a legal definition, I mean. We know it's failed in a commercial, public relations, and principled way.
The more I read here on this forum the more I keep banging my head again't the wall. .Thank Morgan Vening for the information. Now the problem is where do the backer go from here?
DEZOAT wrote: The more I read here on this forum the more I keep banging my head again't the wall. .Thank Morgan Vening for the information. Now the problem is where do the backer go from here?
Sadly, short of government department intervention (and I see that as unlikely in the current political climate), or a large class action lawsuit (even less likely), the only remaining action is trying to convince either PB (least likely option) or Kickstarter (arguably the most likely*) that the project is a failure, and the requirements of failure in that situation be enacted.
* Note, that's still not a big chance. It's like saying you're most likely to be killed by a lightning strike (1:10M) than you are to be killed by a falling coconut (1:250M). While the former is more likely, the chance of either, is effectively zero.
Basically, the choices available to you are limited to the following.
- Accept the money is gone, give up, and move on with your life.
- Spend a lot of money, time and energy trying to fight, and likely get nothing back.
- Remain angry, demand answers/resolution/restitution.
- Be a constant thorn, and mock or annoy Palladium as a means of not letting them just be able to walk away from fething this up.
It's pretty clear which option I've chosen. I think it's better for your health than the third, and better for your wallet than the second. But if you can manage the first, and are OK with leaving it up to karma than doing it yourself, that's arguably the best choice for a backer.
DEZOAT wrote: The more I read here on this forum the more I keep banging my head again't the wall. .Thank Morgan Vening for the information. Now the problem is where do the backer go from here?
Sadly, short of government department intervention (and I see that as unlikely in the current political climate), or a large class action lawsuit (even less likely), the only remaining action is trying to convince either PB (least likely option) or Kickstarter (arguably the most likely*) that the project is a failure, and the requirements of failure in that situation be enacted.
* Note, that's still not a big chance. It's like saying you're most likely to be killed by a lightning strike (1:10M) than you are to be killed by a falling coconut (1:250M). While the former is more likely, the chance of either, is effectively zero.
Basically, the choices available to you are limited to the following.
- Accept the money is gone, give up, and move on with your life.
- Spend a lot of money, time and energy trying to fight, and likely get nothing back.
- Remain angry, demand answers/resolution/restitution.
- Be a constant thorn, and mock or annoy Palladium as a means of not letting them just be able to walk away from fething this up.
It's pretty clear which option I've chosen. I think it's better for your health than the third, and better for your wallet than the second. But if you can manage the first, and are OK with leaving it up to karma than doing it yourself, that's arguably the best choice for a backer.
I know what you mean. My choice is to Be a constant thorn, and mock or annoy Palladium as a means of not letting them just be able to walk away from fething this up. That what left on PB facebook for the last update.
Really, Kevin is most likely desperately trying to avoid bankruptcy, even though at this point it is inevitable.
He can't complete his obligations here, but as long as he's 'working on it', and there are no pending legal tidal waves of destruction, he can play out the string for a while longer.
As he nears 'retirement' age (is he...already there?), he'll finally realize the game is up, declare bankruptcy, and that will be that.
And there's probably no where near enough actual assets left in "Palladium" to do anyone any good.
Because if you leave something boiling for this long?
You couple that with the fact that Kevin has structured Palladium in such a way that without him, it's dead regardless. It appears he's the one that does everything but menial crap. He writes. He edits. He sources. He directs art. He promotes. He has the final say on anything and everything. And yes, that is his prerogative. Wayne and Alex's jobs appear to be doing the crap he doesn't want to do, protecting him from the haterz, and blowing smoke up Kevin's ass about how awesome Kevin is. Seriously, I can't think of a thing either of those two have been given the lead on, other than Wayne managing the Rifter. And I'd bet what I'm owed by Palladium that Kevin still oversees everything in that regard.
But it means that even if there wasn't this threat of bankruptcy in play, Palladium Books likely wouldn't last more than a year or so past the departure of Kevin from the company. They might be able to hold out a little longer in selling backstock, but as a company capable of actually producing new product (even at the anemic rate that they currently do), I think that'd be about it.
And as we know with the constant touting of "30+ years in the industry", legacy is important to Kevin. Meaning he may stay with the company until either he's incapable of continuing, or the company is. As for retirement, he's just turned 61. So if he chooses that route, according to Google, he can retire in just over 11 months at 75%. Though the longer he can drag it out, up to another 5 years, at age 66, he moves towards 100%. So that's also a possible tactic. As PB appears to be Incorporated, I believe that means he isn't personally liable for any debts beyond assets held.
So I don't immediately dismiss the possibility of a "Peace! Out!" mic drop in the first week of April next year. That's definitely achievable. Alex should be fine, being Kevin's contemporary (and older by at least 3 months). But Wayne better get his resume in order, because else he's screwed. Hope he learnt some actual tradecraft and marketable skills.
Unless Kevin has his own succession plans for Wayne.
And as we know with the constant touting of "30+ years in the industry", legacy is important to Kevin. Meaning he may stay with the company until either he's incapable of continuing, or the company is. As for retirement, he's just turned 61. So if he chooses that route, according to Google, he can retire in just over 11 months at 75%. Though the longer he can drag it out, up to another 5 years, at age 66, he moves towards 100%. So that's also a possible tactic. As PB appears to be Incorporated, I believe that means he isn't personally liable for any debts beyond assets held.
If PB were at some point to go into bankruptcy, I have a feeling the investigation that would follow would turn up several instances of Kevin intermingling his personal funds and PB's (moreso him throwing money into the sinking ship than taking out, but questionable enough someone could ram a lawsuit down his throat, if they felt vindictive enough). I suspect this would be reason alone that Kev will never willingly retire from his post, no matter how bad things get at PB.
And I'm pretty sure its only going to get worse as the years flit on by as we wait.
The other thing strange is why Kevin would even tell the public what his print count was on things...
I know of any other companies that do that... Games Workshop have limited runs but they normally
don't say how many..
When the Rift Cards came out, Kevin told the world they only had 150 of them printed.. that is at the
level of someone working out of their basement; not a globally known company with thirty years experience.
I looked at my backing and RTT was the highest money amount that I spent on any kickstarter and most
was add on items. We are already into May and still no real dates... There is no RTT, Kevin will continue
to say he is working on it.. (Legal reason I'm sure) and will either go bankrupt or die before it will ever be
released.
Kevin is all about over-flaunting any actual work that is done for his company, it's all just puffery, because if he ACTUALLY does any work, for his company these days, that's an AMAZING accomplishment.
It's like that bad employee who never does any work, but if he does you'll hear about it for days, if not weeks afterward - and exactly how grueling that average half-day's worth of work was.
However, other companies have sometimes stated their print run numbers; I forget if it was for 3E or 4E D&D, for example, that WotC announced their initial print run of 100,000 <EDIT: Sorry, I dropped a "0"> PHB's sold out at release - and they were having to do a second print run.
Genoside07 wrote: The other thing strange is why Kevin would even tell the public what his print count was on things...
I know of any other companies that do that... Games Workshop have limited runs but they normally
don't say how many..
When the Rift Cards came out, Kevin told the world they only had 150 of them printed.. that is at the
level of someone working out of their basement; not a globally known company with thirty years experience.
I looked at my backing and RTT was the highest money amount that I spent on any kickstarter and most
was add on items. We are already into May and still no real dates... There is no RTT, Kevin will continue
to say he is working on it.. (Legal reason I'm sure) and will either go bankrupt or die before it will ever be
released.
actually giving numbers is a poor man's selling pitch, to drive fervor for the product and increase sales with people wanting to get the item before it sells out.
Asterios wrote: actually giving numbers is a poor man's selling pitch, to drive fervor for the product and increase sales with people wanting to get the item before it sells out.
Yep. The problem is, PB can't even do that right. The numbers given were incredibly low (for a publisher), and it still took several weeks (months?) and at least one convention appearance to sell out the initial print run.
It's why people question PB's financials when it comes to income. I remember someone mentioning that one released book was in the <1000 range, and another was not much more than a thousand (1200?). At 1000 books, at $20 per book, best case scenario (yes, I know it could be much lower margins), gives PB up to $40,000 in income per year from new product at their current 2 books per year rate. Add another 10K from the four rifters, and that's $50K. That's minimum wage for 3 employees in Michigan (and PB have 5 on their company profile). That doesn't take into account taxes, overheads, utilities, convention attendances, or anything else.
So everything else is back catalog for either existing customers (who seem fervent, but are likely to either have most of, or shrink via natural entropy) or new customers (and it's been mentioned that outreach appears to be both small and unemphasized).
As Stormonu pointed out, it worked for D&D as a marketing statement. The number was only released after they'd already sold out, both to show it's popularity, and to explain any delays in further reprint. Whereas PB mention it to gin up support and interest that they just don't appear to be able to get. I wonder why that is. I mean, when I think of PB, I can't help but think of how engaged they are with the gaming public at large.
Some great ideas for PB scenarios, I might as well throw my 2 cents in as well:
Kevin is all about attention and so having minions is important, they are more ego support and scut work so having a staff is important to him.
He would go well past retirement with PB if he could, it is critical for him to feel important.
I agree that financials could very well be an intermingled mess, I have seen a few small businesses with less strange owners treat the till as their personal bank account.
Now to go bankrupt? You would have to be owing money to someone that would hold you accountable like a bank (not like us... ).
He would not want a bankruptcy audit going through, critically going over the books.
I am pretty sure from PB's past history they would not get a loan so would have been running out of pocket.
All I could see happening is the inability to pay the few wages remaining and whatever is owed to their warehouse: any liens remaining, property tax and utilities.
Worst case would be closing their doors but Kevin retains the company even if running out of an office in his house: it still carries-on.
He could while away his time tormenting contracted staff, flogging his IP, publishing the Rifter, sending it out to Drive-thru RPG and waiting for the avalanche of fan-mail saying how awesome he is, maybe even sign-on with Harmony Gold as a consultant for years to come.
Unless Kevin has developed some very expensive personal habits and found less reputable places to run up a large debt, I do not see bankruptcy being a viable choice.
If the government decides to take a run at him THEN it would be the first choice to get them off his back.
let's face it kevin is not going anywhere soon. He (at least to himself) is Palladium and it his his entire raison d'etre. Outside PB ihe is just another rpg player but as the leading light of his own company he can bask in his daily sense of importance.
If his mails are to be believed he works an outrageous amount of hours and that space in his day would be hard to fill. Of course he could freelance , but I cannot see the editor/arbiter of what is great, submitting to another's critisism
So I believe he will be there till he drops and as such it does not bode well for us getting anything different from PB, but the patronising platitudes of the last few years.
Just got an email from PB through DriveThruRPG for the "Robotech® Ghost Ship Adventure Sourcebook, 1988 Edition" PDF.
Apparently because I downloaded some of the Wave 2 cards early on, that entitles PB to throw spam at me for an almost 30yr old book I have zero interest in.
Keep fething that chicken, Palladium. Cause I ain't buying your crap. Neither literally or figuratively.
It is Kevin, Wayne, and Alex. Chuck is an artist, I doubt he's on the fulltime but he does go to conventions and so forth and also seems to be taking over some of Alex's duties (or way last time I called) JR, may still work with distributing/warehouse, but I'm not sure this is on a fulltime basis. The profile pages on their site (submission guidelines/everything actually) is about 12 years overdue for an update. I doubt if Palladium has very many subscribers to the Rifter anymore likely around 500-1k. And closer to 500. They probably run off 800 or so and those that don't sell get mixed for Christmas Grab Bags etc. So to me (an entirely conjecture/opinion) if they clear more than 5k a year, I'd be surprised.
If Kevin would close the building and run everything out of his garage... (and had done so 10 years ago) he'd likely be a rich man...
I was reading over the comments and noticed that a bunch of them must have been pulled. The count is now 98784 where as just yesterday I'm pretty certain it was over 98,800 because I was thinking how close it was to 99k and so following 100k. Just a thought...
I don't' post here often (obviously) but on the eve of the RBG Kickstarter camping, I hope that the commentary there doesn't go south, and if you're thinking otherwise, I humbly implore you to consider otherwise.
I didn't back like many of you so technically I have no dog in the fight. I was ahead of the curve in that regard, having experience writing for the Rifter (and how that went) and watching the other crowdsources they did prior. I even encouraged my friends to not back the project, based on the reasons of my experience.
However, as a person who has struggled with clinical depression (and I think Carmen fits that description based on his comments) I hope that things over there will not only remain civil, but members of this forum should advocate for a certain amount of civility... Has Palladium Books or KS shown it... No, but that's par for the coarse with them and lets not be them.
In the very least, take a moment before you hit post. Please.
Morgan Vening wrote: Just got an email from PB through DriveThruRPG for the "Robotech® Ghost Ship Adventure Sourcebook, 1988 Edition" PDF.
Apparently because I downloaded some of the Wave 2 cards early on, that entitles PB to throw spam at me for an almost 30yr old book I have zero interest in.
Keep fething that chicken, Palladium. Cause I ain't buying your crap. Neither literally or figuratively.
Got the same spam.
Your external voice sounds suspiciously like my internal one.
It is Kevin, Wayne, and Alex. Chuck is an artist, I doubt he's on the fulltime but he does go to conventions and so forth and also seems to be taking over some of Alex's duties (or way last time I called) JR, may still work with distributing/warehouse, but I'm not sure this is on a fulltime basis. The profile pages on their site (submission guidelines/everything actually) is about 12 years overdue for an update. I doubt if Palladium has very many subscribers to the Rifter anymore likely around 500-1k. And closer to 500. They probably run off 800 or so and those that don't sell get mixed for Christmas Grab Bags etc. So to me (an entirely conjecture/opinion) if they clear more than 5k a year, I'd be surprised.
If Kevin would close the building and run everything out of his garage... (and had done so 10 years ago) he'd likely be a rich man...
I was reading over the comments and noticed that a bunch of them must have been pulled. The count is now 98784 where as just yesterday I'm pretty certain it was over 98,800 because I was thinking how close it was to 99k and so following 100k. Just a thought...
I don't' post here often (obviously) but on the eve of the RBG Kickstarter camping, I hope that the commentary there doesn't go south, and if you're thinking otherwise, I humbly implore you to consider otherwise.
I didn't back like many of you so technically I have no dog in the fight. I was ahead of the curve in that regard, having experience writing for the Rifter (and how that went) and watching the other crowdsources they did prior. I even encouraged my friends to not back the project, based on the reasons of my experience.
However, as a person who has struggled with clinical depression (and I think Carmen fits that description based on his comments) I hope that things over there will not only remain civil, but members of this forum should advocate for a certain amount of civility... Has Palladium Books or KS shown it... No, but that's par for the coarse with them and lets not be them.
In the very least, take a moment before you hit post. Please.
well just out of curiousity are you aware that the building PB is in does not have Kevin's name on the lease? no it has Wayne's.
Asterios wrote: well just out of curiousity are you aware that the building PB is in does not have Kevin's name on the lease? no it has Wayne's.
Only a couple reasons why the big boss guy would not be on the lease.
Gives a whole different view on the Wayne/Kev relationship as well.
Okay, looks like old Kevin is in a great position to walk away if need-be than I thought other than the assets in the warehouse.
I really have to stop talking about PB, their business weirdness just hurts the head.
I've seen mention that there have been times when the staff was "asked" to continue working despite Kevin's lack of ability to pay them. I imagine that regularly continues to this day.
Also have heard that he has more than welched on a few of his freelancers, as well. I doubt he's changed his ways in that regard.
Sure would promote extensive use of amateurs, I am sure it would just "fire up" Kev's editing and rewriting skills to squeak in another writing credit.
Well... For the record I was paid for what published. I did have to ask (more than twice) however, to get paid, and not until I flamed out (of their forum) did I get paid... I'm still not proud of that. The amount was a bit short, but it was close.
I've noticed some things which appeared later, (in book publications) which are very similar to some of the things I wrote and were edited out of my original submissions. Steve C. Trustam, said the same (I think) in the epic Bill Coffin thread, but really once you sign that contract your really unprotected... As far as the NDA goes (I actually didn't sign the last one...) So all of the above is of coarse in regards to that last NDA (lol) and submission I didn't sign. Seriously though, would Palladium really try and sue me over the amount, I doubt it and its the same reason I don't follow my own pursuits in regards to the company.
What always gets me curious is wondering how much crap their other freelancers put up with to see their stuff in print... If my limited experience is an indicator, it can't be good.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Well... For the record I was paid for what published. I did have to ask (more than twice) however, to get paid, and not until I flamed out (of their forum) did I get paid... I'm still not proud of that. The amount was a bit short, but it was close.
I've noticed some things which appeared later, (in book publications) which are very similar to some of the things I wrote and were edited out of my original submissions. Steve C. Trustam, said the same (I think) in the epic Bill Coffin thread, but really once you sign that contract your really unprotected... As far as the NDA goes (I actually didn't sign the last one...) So all of the above is of coarse in regards to that last NDA (lol) and submission I didn't sign. Seriously though, would Palladium really try and sue me over the amount, I doubt it and its the same reason I don't follow my own pursuits in regards to the company.
What always gets me curious is wondering how much crap their other freelancers put up with to see their stuff in print... If my limited experience is an indicator, it can't be good.
Having been in contact with a number of the freelancers over the years, and somewhat to this day, the vast majority of them have never been published anywhere else and once they were published elsewhere , iirc, never submitted to PB again after that. For them getting published by PB was their only goal by and large.
It is Kevin, Wayne, and Alex. Chuck is an artist, I doubt he's on the fulltime but he does go to conventions and so forth and also seems to be taking over some of Alex's duties (or way last time I called) JR, may still work with distributing/warehouse, but I'm not sure this is on a fulltime basis.
Actually Chuck is an employee and Julius does in fact still "run" the warehouse (though we all know full well that Kevin cannot keep his hands off any aspect of this company so "run" likely means if something goes wrong it is immediately his fault). Kathy is also employed to some degree as she deals with billing and bookkeeping last I heard.
Now if he actually pays them at least minimum wage.....and IF they all get paid for 40 hours a week (though they all apparently work 90 hours a week or more according to Kevin's "updates'), then that is just shy of 75k a year to them in wages. They are yet to put out an actual new book this year and there is no way in fracking hell the two Rifters made a quarter of that in profit to cover the first quarter of wages let alone anything else. Add to that the indications of "printer delays" they have had since last fall....issues they never seemed to have before when every book that went to the printer was back and being shipped within two weeks like clockwork for the previous 20 years....then yeah their financial MUST a fracking mess.
In the very least, take a moment before you hit post. Please.
I agree with this sentiment but truth be told the "incident" that caused Carmen's alleged suicide attempt (and at the moment I did not doubt it occurred though but frankly we only have Carmen and Kevin's word for it unless his wife or others have factually confirmed it to the world in person, or were there, then their "proof" is nothing but hearsay at best...and I am starting to have my doubts) the comments on the RRT Kickstarter page were not some ravenous rants directed at Carmen but rather tame basically calling him out on a few things, and in my case calling him out about some of his revisionist history of things he himself said to me and backed up by another who had it said to him as well. Were there comments made that said people would be going to the Rifts KS comments to basically call him out there as well? Yes. BUt there were no raving lunatic rants by any stretch and even those that MIGHT fit only started appearing after Carmen himself escalated things. So while I agree with your sentiment, and we should always try to be civil, then one tends to stop being civil when one gets treated uncivilly.
Three full pages of advertising for gRifts to start it out, ending with a link to the Rogue Heroes FB page, which hasn't had a new post in over a week. Kickstarter is due to start 3pm Monday.
Then a full page ad for a Chaos Earth sale.
Then another full page of "Here's the stuff that's coming out". Including announcing that Garden of the Gods due out March or April. Oops, someone did a cut and paste from the wrong document. And four books actively listed as "In Production". None of which are listed as "At the Printers".
Finally, on about the sixth page, the RRT blurb.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books wrote:The Kickstarter for the Rifts® board game may be what’s getting a lot of attention at the moment, but Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is NOT forgotten, and it will see plenty of news and attention in the months ahead. We have a lot of plans for RRT Wave 2 and beyond that we are busy putting into place. Meanwhile, more of the original Robotech® RPG books from the 1980s and 1990s are being made available as PDF editions on DriveThruRPG.com every week. Robotech® and RRT are never out of our thoughts.
So basically, a vague admission of where the focus is, and promises that it's still being worked on, while we know gRifts and at least two books due out this month, but sure, RRT is never forgotten. Likely in an "I've got a boil on my ass" fashion. Because we know it's only an inconvenience at this point. It's not a cut and paste of last week, but there are a lot of similarities, and the same final end sentence.
And his Closing Thoughts.
Closing Thoughts wrote:I hope Rick Grimes isn’t lurking anywhere nearby, because I feel (and probably look) like one of the walking dead. There have been a lot of very long work days these past several weeks as we work on many exciting projects. I’m sure the birthday party tonight will get my blood pumping. We are celebrating the birthdays of Wayne Smith, Julius Rosenstein and myself, all of whom had birthdays over the last 34 days. I will say that seeing the video for the Rifts® Board Game Kickstarter got my heart pounding. Great stuff. That’s all for the moment. Spread the word about the Kickstarter and enjoy this week’s spring sale.
Worked on many projects. Still can't say word one about the most popular project they've had in a decade plus. Whatever.
I give this Update . I considered one more for the egregious gRifts promotion, but I was actually kinda underwhelmed at how comparatively mediocre it was.
After reading the update I kind of felt like a small child that his parents divorce and the father hasn't paid child support in over three years
but each week sends an email to the mother saying how much he loves his kids...
cannonfodr wrote: Looking at the latest PBWU, it looks like they put a trademark on Realms of Chaos? Do my eyes deceive me there?
Perhaps someone should forward a copy of the ad to GW and see if they have anything to say about it?
I was going to mock the wording for the exact same reason, but I forgot.
And yes, according to the PBWU, they're claiming copyright of the phrase. Though I'd wager Kevin is unaware of the conflict with the almost 30yr old GW books, given his vocal public disdain for all things wargaming.
Of course, you'ld think that the first thing to do before slapping a copyright on something would be to do at least a quick google search, and checking at least the first page (the first 8 results are the PC game, the last two are the GW product). But it's not a surprise given his vocal public disdain for most things internet.
I guess he COULD argue that his "Realms of Chaos" is different to GW's "Realm of Chaos", that the plural makes all the difference. But then you'ld need to point out Kevin didn't like it what Trion used Rift, without the plural. Regardless of the massive plagiarizing he's included in his own work, it's not a surprise given his vocal public disdain of people infringing on his genius.
It's possible that it was an inadvertent typo. But as it's not that simple to insert a registered copyright symbol. It either requires copypasting from another source, using Alt-0174 or in some software, ( R ) and having it autocomplete. So multiple clicks or key presses. But again, not surprising given his vocal public disdain for technology.
As it's unlikely to actually go anywhere, it just revives the age old question when it comes to anything Kevin does that's just plainly wrong. Stupid, malicious, ignorant, arrogant, and/or apathetic? I'm betting on 3+4 in this regard.
Having been in contact with a number of the freelancers over the years, and somewhat to this day, the vast majority of them have never been published anywhere else and once they were published elsewhere , iirc, never submitted to PB again after that. For them getting published by PB was their only goal by and large.
Well you can put me on that list. I also wrote a sourcebook so my flameout was sort of extra painful. I've decided to pursue other companies and have wrote/published a few things. My experience (limited as it is) is that RPG writing is a tough business and it's full of a mix of folks, good/bad.
I agree with this sentiment but truth be told the "incident" that caused Carmen's alleged suicide attempt (and at the moment I did not doubt it occurred though but frankly we only have Carmen and Kevin's word for it unless his wife or others have factually confirmed it to the world in person, or were there, then their "proof" is nothing but hearsay at best...and I am starting to have my doubts) the comments on the RRT Kickstarter page were not some ravenous rants directed at Carmen but rather tame basically calling him out on a few things, and in my case calling him out about some of his revisionist history of things he himself said to me and backed up by another who had it said to him as well. Were there comments made that said people would be going to the Rifts KS comments to basically call him out there as well? Yes. BUt there were no raving lunatic rants by any stretch and even those that MIGHT fit only started appearing after Carmen himself escalated things. So while I agree with your sentiment, and we should always try to be civil, then one tends to stop being civil when one gets treated uncivilly.
As I said to you before (though it may have been Palladium's forum) I was reading everything as you and Carmen were conversating... I didn't really think you got too far out of line. The only point (I think) which we differ...
Is the question of whether or not it's appropriate to troll Carmen's Kickstarter. (which, I don't think its right)
Keep in mind, I also think it was exceedingly inappropriate for Carmen to come into the RRT Kickstarter and try and appeal to RRT backers. It was certainly wrong beyond what he said (which made it even worse), or meant to say. To sound about as corny as I can make it: Two wrongs, don't make a right. (that's my opinion, we can certainly disagree)
I'm just asking for folks to make a consideration, before they participate or post in the RBG Kickstarter. I'm not even defining what consideration(s) they should or should not make. I can define that, only for myself (as hopefully will each of you), if I decide to wade in there (I haven't decided yet).
Your certainly right to note that we don't have any confirmation of the suicide attempt and neither can we confirm it's a tactic. Truthfully if I had my choice I would choose the swindle, because then I could go on hating Palladium for a whole host of other legit reasons, and have less of a conscience about it...
I will gladly consider your request when the funds I put into the RRT kickstarter are returned or the product I was promised shows up.
Your request just comes off as an attempt to get us to not tell the truth in the rifts kickstarter in my opinion.
While I hope people remain civil on both sides, that's the point. Asking the questions, and pointing out the problems. We've had both Carmen and PB say they're separate companies, but that requires a level of trust that the former hasn't earned, and the latter has completely squandered. Then there were the several "coincidences" that called the "separate" nature into question, including PB spruiking gRifts at AdeptiCon without Carmen in attendance.
Simply put, if the intent for Kevin was to run this campaign under a shell company, I can't think of a more obvious way to do it. Neither Alex, Wayne or Chuck (now part of the roster) could do it. You've got Carmen who is the next closest thing to an employee, having substantial writing credits for PBand being instrumental in the development of RRT, and happens to live a commutable distance from Westland (even if the border is apparently cumbersome). And with the honesty issues that Kevin has, it really does look iffy. Just compare the advertising and promotion PB are doing for gRifts, compared to the leaduptoSavageRifts. It's positively anemic compared to the coverage gRifts has gotten.
That's not to mention the issue that was the coincidental movement on PB's personal crowdsourcing, that was heavily delayed (IIRC it was 18+months late at the time), that suddenly sprang to life about the time that RRT funded. Northern Gun? While nothing definitive was ever proven, PB's history of sketchiness when it comes to providing what is owed, or the claims that the embezzlement that caused the Crisis of Treachery was massively overstated by Kevin (I believe he claimed it was ~$1M, when it really looked like it was in the high 5 figures).
Now, that all brings up the question of why did I and many other backers put money into RRT if PB have such a crappy reputation? Well, first, some of this didn't become known until after the campaign had concluded. And secondly, it was because Ninja Division were announced that they would be doing ALL the heavy lifting, and that PB was ONLY there in an advisory and approval fashion (sound familiar?). And then as soon as the money was collected, it became clear that Ninja Division was just a subcontractor and that PB was involved a lot more than people thought.
I can see people getting caught up in the hype. As we saw with RRT, nostalgia can be one hell of a drug. But if this goes pear shaped for any number of reasons (and yes, Carmen's health is germane to whether it gets completed or not), including the apparent time crunch Carmen is under to get things complete before the license expires, then people do deserve to be forewarned. As many pro-PB people have pointed out regarding RRT, including in the latest PBWU announcement "You did not pay for a product, you paid to help throw the dice at the chance of their being a product. That is how kickstarters work.". The main argument that PB defenders seem to have, is that you're not actually owed anything. Heck, Kevin is on record saying backers have already got more than they're owed. So people should be aware that if things do go pear shaped, it's not likely to go any differently than RRT, and should take that into account before considering backing.
Just off the top of my head, here's a few questions I'd want answered before I considered backing (if I was interested, which I am not).
1) What refund policy is in place if things get delayed, or the project or management changes significantly after the campaign funding has been collected?
2) What assurances are there that PB will not take control of the project? When does the license lapse/revert back to PB?
3) Where will all shipping originate? (This is important to know if it'll be initially freighted to Windsor Ontario, or Westland Michigan)
4) What sort of insurance/reassurance is there that the project will be protected in the event of single point failure? I know it's not considered polite to mention the suicide attempt, but it applies to him having an accident too. As he appears to be the only one in charge, having a plan for completion shouldn't be out of the question.
5) At what stage are all the components? Rulebooks, card sets, miniature sets, tokens, maptiles. What is required to bring this to completion? Because the previous campaign he was a part of said it was all but done, and backers are still waiting.
I'm sure there are others, but I think those are the obvious pertinents.
In my dollar post over there, I am going to link to the RRT section with the comments from PB, specifically the ones pointing out the suicide attempt, and the threats the man made in the RRT section. I will also point out that he IS a shell corporation of PB in the fact that PB is doing more for that project than their own. I will also copy paste the PB pedigree of the not an employee Carmen and the fact that his gaming history is 99.999% PB games, and one unreleased game from Topps. His abilities as a game designer are questionable at best. I will also include that PB credits him with game design of the failed RRT project, that they refuse to refund.
The man is not suited to run a Kickstarter Project, much less a business. The funds will be covering his burial expenses, because he might not be so lucky next time.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books wrote:The Kickstarter for the Rifts® board game may be what’s getting a lot of attention at the moment, but Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is NOT forgotten, and it will see plenty of news and attention in the months ahead. We have a lot of plans for RRT Wave 2 and beyond that we are busy putting into place. Meanwhile, more of the original Robotech® RPG books from the 1980s and 1990s are being made available as PDF editions on DriveThruRPG.com every week. Robotech® and RRT are never out of our thoughts.
You know, they really should get their story straight. Either they have licensed the boardgame to Rogue Heroes and hence they only need to revise it and put the "validated" stamp on it, or they are working on it to the expense of everything else, in which case the assertion that "no, it's really not us, it's Rogue Heroes" gets increasingly hilarious.
No mention of what few uninitiated should be warned of the risks of funding a PB project?
I still cannot believe how RRT has strung along.
Carmen continues to work in an environment (or more appropriately: associates) that lead to poor mental health.
I doubt it can get better in these conditions.
Trolling Rifts would be inappropriate, but critical thinking questions asked are very pertinent.
The way RRT is handled, I really do not care how "different" this project is: it seems to mean a great deal to Kevin = $ most likely, so no, no more money to that shyster.
I just think it's weird to have two people join dakka dakka in the past few weeks
that seems to only post on this single thread. The only handful of posts are here
trying to put a positive spin on the whole train wreck of RTT or asking for 3D files
that could get someone in trouble if seen as copyright material.
I welcome new people and everyone is welcome; but palladium fan/friends
will always try to water down the situation. My point of view is when
someone tries to tell me the complete opposite of what I know, they are
just adding fuel to the fire. They joined the dakka community for one reason.
Sure I will watch what happens with the rifts game but I won't back it even
with a single dollar.
Is the question of whether or not it's appropriate to troll Carmen's Kickstarter. (which, I don't think its right)
wait let me correct you there, it is not Carmen's kickstarter, it is Kevin's and Kevin's alone, it was done under Carmen's name so as to avoid RRT backlash, which we see how well that worked.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Keep in mind, I also think it was exceedingly inappropriate for Carmen to come into the RRT Kickstarter and try and appeal to RRT backers. It was certainly wrong beyond what he said (which made it even worse), or meant to say. To sound about as corny as I can make it: Two wrongs, don't make a right. (that's my opinion, we can certainly disagree)
I'm just asking for folks to make a consideration, before they participate or post in the RBG Kickstarter. I'm not even defining what consideration(s) they should or should not make. I can define that, only for myself (as hopefully will each of you), if I decide to wade in there (I haven't decided yet).
Your certainly right to note that we don't have any confirmation of the suicide attempt and neither can we confirm it's a tactic. Truthfully if I had my choice I would choose the swindle, because then I could go on hating Palladium for a whole host of other legit reasons, and have less of a conscience about it...
as to posting on "Carmen's" Kickstarter it is just to warn potential backers about things that Carmen and PB will not inform them of, if a drunk driver crashes into a gas truck it explodes and takes out a bridge behind a hairpin turn another driver sees this then continues on and then sees a bunch of cars coming down the road at a good clip and does not warn them and they go off the bridge and die, who is at fault? the drunk? or the driver who did not warn the others?
and lets face it if Carmen's attempted suicide was a sales tactic, then he just ruined his life over PBBS, nobody in their right mind will back someone with money over a project that relies on someone who tried to kill himself over a few non-threatening, non-abusive words and that is what will doom Carmen's project.
The PBWU has a three page advert, listing the starting date 3 times. It links twice to the Rogue Heroes Facebook page.
The Rogue Heroes FB page's last "post" (FB equivalent of an Update) was over ten days ago. There's no mention of a specific starting date/time, though to be fair, there is one comment buried in the commentary that alludes to it.
Basically, PB are doing way more to promote the release of this game, than Carmen is. Carmen hasn't posted to the PB Forums since the incident. There's simply a lack of promotion from the person allegedly running things, or the people on his independent "team'. Just PB who don't have anything to do with the project.
Again, I hope people are civil, but I also think questions regarding who is running things given circumstance is absolutely fair game.
Noticed that Morgan and also that the colour pics in the PBWU do not feature at all on Carmen's facebbok page.
I asked this on the KS forum, but how likely do you think it is that Kevin will be in the gRifts BG launch video?
I agree we all need to be civil if we are going to comment over there on the gRifts KS, but if it does go wrong and even if everybody is, I get a feeling that it will be the fault of those negative , nasty RTT backers
I’m on nobody’s side here. I’ve have been critical of RRT and the RBG over at my blog. I have identified myself more clearly (than likely prudent) than most of you. I’m advising caution and consideration with what you choose to post. Again, how you rate caution and consideration is (caps are for emphasis, not yelling) UP TO YOU INDIVIDUALLY.
@Asterios
wait let me correct you there, it is not Carmen's kickstarter, it is Kevin's and Kevin's alone, it was done under Carmen's name so as to avoid RRT backlash, which we see how well that worked.
You don’t need to “correct me,” about a statement which is unproven. In fact, don’t do it. Though I “think” you are correct, since there are very few degrees of separation. What’s interesting (and certainly coincides to your point) if the fact the RBG launch was announced via the Palladium Books page, not the Rogue Heroes FB page… Which I see others beat me too above.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fact the folks are posting questions of what they would like to ask are a good step. That is the consideration I'm addressing. Rational Thought. I have stated above my own personal issues on the topic (above), but those issues are my issues and my considerations. Each of you will have your own to consider.
wilycoyote wrote: Noticed that Morgan and also that the colour pics in the PBWU do not feature at all on Carmen's facebbok page.
I asked this on the KS forum, but how likely do you think it is that Kevin will be in the gRifts BG launch video?
I agree we all need to be civil if we are going to comment over there on the gRifts KS, but if it does go wrong and even if everybody is, I get a feeling that it will be the fault of those negative , nasty RTT backers
Oh, any issues will be the result of the negative, nasty RRT backers. That are only a small minority of a few dozen that could be easily bought off with refunds, but we won't do that for some reason (it being significantly more than a few dozen).
As for appearing in the gRifts BG launch video, I don't think it'll be likely. Quite possible, but I'd bet against it. Just seems too third rail-ey. But you probably can't go wrong betting on PB failing to manage expectations.
My question (and one I forgot to add to my list earlier) is how often, and how prominently either Kevin Siembeda or Palladium Books features in the credits. Will Kevin have anything beyond "Original Concept By", and a copyright/trademark acknowledgement to PB for the use of the terms? Or will it be significantly more? Kevin being a profound "credit hog".
As can be seen by this image, the PB logo is featured on both the front, and at least two side panels of a game that is being run by an independent company.
And weirdly similar to another game in which PB were "partners", where PB put there name on each panel, and twice on the front.
By comparison, on this FFG XWing game, the only logo is the FFG one. Nothing from LucasArts or Disney (not shy about their IP rights), or anyone else, despite it being no different than what PB/RHS declare is the case.
Oh, and if that's not convincing, here's Talisman, originally created by GW, arguably the only gaming company who are bigger IP weenies than Palladium. Again, only FFG on the box.
So yeah, I'd want more than some sketchy assurance that PB aren't all over this project.
Again, I don't want to see anyone get ripped off. But I want say it isn't going to be delightful to watch the PB fan friends who tell RRT backers "tough luck" get ripped off.
n815e wrote: Again, I don't want to see anyone get ripped off. But I want say it isn't going to be delightful to watch the PB fan friends who tell RRT backers "tough luck" get ripped off.
They won't care. It's clear that for a substantial number of the fan-friends, pissing away a hundred dollars to both support Palladium, and be used as a leverage point to stick it to backers with less patience and fervor, is a hundred dollars well spent. It's going to be the people who get suckered in by these enablers that are going to get screwed. Thankfully, it looks like there's going to be enough people pointing out the pitfalls so that they can at least be a little informed about the potential catastropheth.
That's assuming they back in the first place. I've seen at least one PB defender openly admit that they didn't back RRT (he wasn't confident that it'd be finished, so he was waiting for retail), but that the people who did should just accept that the money is gone.
EDIT : Rogue Heroes put up an hour ago (10pm EST) the time and date for the campaign start, 3PM Monday. Storms are the reason the announcement was delayed. Understandable reason, but the donkey cave part of me thinks it's kinda karmic.
Will PB fan friends become upset if they fund this project, wait years, then don't get rewards? If Carmen has a mental breakdown (imo, likely, given his suicide attempt), I'm not seeing him complete the KS without Palladium's "help". Either case sounds like a good chance the project will run out of funds, and, iirc, Carmen's already spent five figures (?) so far and I don't know if he has any more personal funds to draw from. I'd sure like to know how many of these PB fan friends exist, and how much money and patience they have for this KS project.
EDIT : Rogue Heroes put up an hour ago (10pm EST) the time and date for the campaign start, 3PM Monday. Storms are the reason the announcement was delayed. Understandable reason, but the donkey cave part of me thinks it's kinda karmic.
Storms were why he had no power/internet....even though all his neighbours were apparently just fine...so only HIS house got affected? Bull%%%%. That is not how that stuff works.....the whole thing even "SOUNDS" like Kevin wrote it.
EDIT : Rogue Heroes put up an hour ago (10pm EST) the time and date for the campaign start, 3PM Monday. Storms are the reason the announcement was delayed. Understandable reason, but the donkey cave part of me thinks it's kinda karmic.
Storms were why he had no power/internet....even though all his neighbours were apparently just fine...so only HIS house got affected? Bull%%%%. That is not how that stuff works.....the whole thing even "SOUNDS" like Kevin wrote it.
Do you have proof that is a lie? Not to defend him, but how do you know his neighbors were not affected? What is his day job? Is he one of the guys who fix downed power lines?
Yes, I do believe he's talking out his butt, but I do like to have a bit more info.
Never mind, found it. Depends on how the divide was. I once lived in a house that one side of the street was on a different line/grid than the other. The North side of the street was on the same lines as the school, nursing home, and police station. The South side of the street was on a strictly residential line. The Lines were in my back yard, and they were in the backyard of my across the street neighbors as well. It depends on the age of the town, and that of the power grid.
n815e wrote: Again, I don't want to see anyone get ripped off. But I want say it isn't going to be delightful to watch the PB fan friends who tell RRT backers "tough luck" get ripped off.
They won't care. It's clear that for a substantial number of the fan-friends, pissing away a hundred dollars to both support Palladium, and be used as a leverage point to stick it to backers with less patience and fervor, is a hundred dollars well spent. It's going to be the people who get suckered in by these enablers that are going to get screwed. Thankfully, it looks like there's going to be enough people pointing out the pitfalls so that they can at least be a little informed about the potential catastropheth.
That's assuming they back in the first place. I've seen at least one PB defender openly admit that they didn't back RRT (he wasn't confident that it'd be finished, so he was waiting for retail), but that the people who did should just accept that the money is gone.
EDIT : Rogue Heroes put up an hour ago (10pm EST) the time and date for the campaign start, 3PM Monday. Storms are the reason the announcement was delayed. Understandable reason, but the donkey cave part of me thinks it's kinda karmic.
I wish some of them warned us when RRT was running, but it is obvious by PB's attraction of some of the lowest of the lowest, who would not bother to warn people and potential backers of PB's lack of ability in all things. so yes they are just as guilty as PB is, and I will not make their mistake, I will point out the facts that can and will be proven to them about PB, Carmen and so forth. like Carmen's mental state, PB's penchant for taking over projects they claim they have little to nothing to do with and so on and so on.
I frequently visit most of the popular miniatures and board game sites.
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen any promotion of this outside of PB's weekly spam. You would think that if they were looking to maximize interest, they would rely on more than Palladium's cheap and lazy "spread the word."
I do realize that Carmen's experience amounts to only PB, but he wrote himself that he wanted to distance himself from them due to their reputation and handling of RRT. Yet he has basically handed everything over to people he knows are inept at doing things.
EDIT : Rogue Heroes put up an hour ago (10pm EST) the time and date for the campaign start, 3PM Monday. Storms are the reason the announcement was delayed. Understandable reason, but the donkey cave part of me thinks it's kinda karmic.
Storms were why he had no power/internet....even though all his neighbours were apparently just fine...so only HIS house got affected? Bull%%%%. That is not how that stuff works.....the whole thing even "SOUNDS" like Kevin wrote it.
Do you have proof that is a lie? Not to defend him, but how do you know his neighbors were not affected? What is his day job? Is he one of the guys who fix downed power lines?
Yes, I do believe he's talking out his butt, but I do like to have a bit more info.
Never mind, found it. Depends on how the divide was. I once lived in a house that one side of the street was on a different line/grid than the other. The North side of the street was on the same lines as the school, nursing home, and police station. The South side of the street was on a strictly residential line. The Lines were in my back yard, and they were in the backyard of my across the street neighbors as well. It depends on the age of the town, and that of the power grid.
had he even said "though the people across the street seemed to be fine" I'd have had no issues. Saying "my neighbours all around me seemed fine"? Yeah not so much. A single house would not be on a separate grid from everyone around them. Same goes generally for internet. And Kevin has repeatedly ad nauseum rambled about how "storms knocked everything out and we couldn't work" etc even when a cursory check of hte weather reports indicate they had no such "storms" just some light snow or rain....thus my point of "it even *SOUNDS* like Kevin wrote it"
His day job is as a truck driver last I checked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n815e wrote: I frequently visit most of the popular miniatures and board game sites.
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen any promotion of this outside of PB's weekly spam. You would think that if they were looking to maximize interest, they would rely on more than Palladium's cheap and lazy "spread the word."
I do realize that Carmen's experience amounts to only PB, but he wrote himself that he wanted to distance himself from them due to their reputation and handling of RRT. Yet he has basically handed everything over to people he knows are inept at doing things.
Well when that is all you really know you tend to stick with what you know and who you trust......even if it's the worst possible thing you can do.
Asterios wrote: I wish some of them warned us when RRT was running,
I was under the impression when it the kick-starter campaign was running that Ninja Division was doing it and more a CMON project than Palladium.
Right now Kevin has four fingers in the rifts board game pot that he says he in not holding..
If the rifts game was available right now I wouldn't buy it. Because the simple fact I don't have any Rift RPG books and I can only think of one FLGS that I would be able to buy them at, that is a shop that's been open for a few decades and maybe just old stock. I actually had a discussion with a guy that orders
products for a number of game shops in the local area.. His reply is "there is no requests for them, so we don't stock it", Most Rifts /Robotech fans are old timers..
Maybe half of them was backers of RRT.. That makes the pool of people buying it even smaller of who will back the game. Most young gamers don't know rifts IP
and most people will follow the trend of what the community is doing..
The price point and model count will be a big hurdle.. From what I seen the models look ok, but once you look at the big dogs and what they have to offer
it makes it even harder. Right now I am loving Shadow Wars and a local campaign is going.. so why buy something that would be almost impossible to get others
to even try to play.
Someone needs to ask Cameron for a time line.. Reaper and Kingdom Death did it, they got a ton of return backers.. But I feel within a few months Kevin will
be the one updating everything... and the updates will be "we are working on it"
Genoside07 wrote: Someone needs to ask Cameron for a time line.. Reaper and Kingdom Death did it, they got a ton of return backers.. But I feel within a few months Kevin will
be the one updating everything... and the updates will be "we are working on it"
The quotes from Kevin from 2012 about Carmen pushing a Rifts and Robotech miniatures game are relevant to claims of having nothing to do.with RRT.
For those having trouble finding it, the relevant post is about halfway down the page.
Here's the text.
Actually Eli Palladium (Kevin) is considering this. Check out this fairly recent update:
● Rifts® (and Robotech®?) Miniatures. Carmen Bellaire and I also continue to discuss the feasibility of releasing a Rifts® and/or Robotech® miniatures game even if it's on a limited basis to start. Let us know whether you might be interested in such products.
● In addition to Carmen's efforts, Palladium has been approached by two different people about making a Robotech® miniatures game. We are currently entertaining the possibilities.
And they are getting a first release of miniatures for Rifts ready. Kevin has also mentioned in the last few Palladium updates that a Robotech miniatures game is very much on his mind and that he is looking into letting some other folks develop it.
So who knows? Maybe there is a Rifts game in the works.
And here's the PBWU that it's referencing, March 1st, 2012. So, a week past five years, the Kickstarter finally launches.
I am NOT defending Carmen or PB but I do work for an electric utility as a GIS/OMS technician. It is possible for a single residence to be out of power to any number of reasons: issues inside the residence itself, service to the residence, transformer issues and more.
GuyverBlue wrote: I am NOT defending Carmen or PB but I do work for an electric utility as a GIS/OMS technician. It is possible for a single residence to be out of power to any number of reasons: issues inside the residence itself, service to the residence, transformer issues and more.
yeah thing like not paying the power bill ? but wait, does that mean he doesn't have a smart phone since he could have done a facebook page update on a phone now too.
Here is my final word on the topic. That's my last post (or concern)... And more appropriately its at my blog.
Best of luck to all. That's my last post here.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Here is my final word on the topic. That's my last post (or concern)... And more appropriately its at my blog.
Best of luck to all. That's my last post here.
Interesting. Hmmmm. Research? Yep, did it, knew the company. Was completely lied to. You know the part that had, who was that again? Nina Division is doing all the heavy lifting? The company owner consistently moves the delivery dates. He has even been quoted to saying similar to we got more than we paid for and don't deserve anything else. I don't remember where the actual quote is, but I'm sure someone has it. They may not have set out to defraud us of money, but current actions are saying that is their intent now.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Here is my final word on the topic. That's my last post (or concern)... And more appropriately its at my blog.
Best of luck to all. That's my last post here.
It is always sad to see someone go, but if you feel you have to, then you should.
Meanwhile:
Monday, May 8, 2017
RPG NEWS: Rifts Board Game Kickstarter; Part Two
And... The Top Three Reasons Not to Participate!
Rifts Board Game
Look, the internet is the worst sort of venue to provide advice. Somehow, in the back of the readers mind, is this idea that what's really being shown, and especially if that topic is one which incites passion, is moral authority. Or worse that you're trying to dissuade them, because in secret you are actually in support of the company which (so far), essentially ripped them off...
This often gets out of hand, such as is the case with my inbox receiving a number of emails (5 total) concerning my blogposts posts here, and my posts in reference on the DakkaDakka forum.
Writing which, specifically concerns Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) by Palladium Books & the about to launch Rifts Board Game (RBG) by Rogue Heroes. The only thing I can attribute this to, is me asking (angry) nerds, that if they decided to troll the Rifts Board Game that...
1) It would be in bad taste, given the circumstances and based on what they were claiming they were going to say and...
2) That they might consider posting with consideration and stick to the facts without making it a personal endeavor.
Okay... Maybe I did insert some moral authority... What can I say? There is a difference in showing displeasure with someone (or a company) based on their work and attacking them personally. And that's my view and I (apparently) have no right to insert it...
Okay, I could have also said, that if you backed Robotech RPG Tactics, and didn't do any research into the company you are a moron... And that's my view and I (apparently) have no right to insert it...
After all what's good for the goose...
If you choose not to do any research into PB and you backed... Are you still angry...? And even though I might think it, would it be okay for me to call you (based on the failure of the project and the fact that you participated) a moron based on that? Really? An idiot... A fool (you) and his money are easily parted... so on and so forth excreta... No, it really wouldn't, and neither should it be. This sort of rhetoric could go on endlessly... Reap what you sow, but get off of my grass (or inbox) in the meantime. The truth is all of us have made mistakes, some worse than others...
And before anything explodes I'm not addressing the many reasoned and more eloquent voices of dissent, the ones that might actually say or post something "insightful" and give links to prove their points or in the least reference their "theories." Including distinguishing the difference in the first place... (You know who you are)
Unless you truly believe, that Palladium Books botched this on purpose and with ill intent, I say the time has come to give them (and all their mismanagements) some slack... And especially if you're planning to troll, with that certain way (which was explicitly detailed to me) out of line sort of intensity... Just don't.
Honestly, this is my last post on the topic, I'll edit in the links to the actual Kickstarter post (3:00pm). Not that I need to say it, but I have been a serious and (hopefully) thoughtful pundit of both the RRT and RBG from the get-go. I do not support either project, which I covered the reasons why here and here. Originally, I planned to address the trolls more specifically, but in the spirit of reasons to NOT back the Rift Board Game, I'm Not addressing the trolls more specifically, other than send a link to that forum. Reasoned discussion is always welcome in the comments, troll comments which intend to inflame me when I've spent the time urging friends and blog readers to not back this project is pretty F@#$in' ridiculous.
In truth, I've reached the point where this whole debacle makes me (watch your shoes) want to "gak-gaaahk-gak." In the spirit of moral authority lets consult an expert... from a church I'll never attend and seemed the most relevant to the topic at hand.
Top 3 Reasons Not to Back!!!
“No matter how bad things are, you can always make things worse.”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
“The key question to keep asking is, Are you spending your time on the right things? Because time is all you have. ”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
“People are more important than things.”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
WithintheDungeon wrote: Here is my final word on the topic. That's my last post (or concern)... And more appropriately its at my blog.
Best of luck to all. That's my last post here.
It is always sad to see someone go, but if you feel you have to, then you should.
Meanwhile:
Monday, May 8, 2017
RPG NEWS: Rifts Board Game Kickstarter; Part Two
And... The Top Three Reasons Not to Participate!
Rifts Board Game
Look, the internet is the worst sort of venue to provide advice. Somehow, in the back of the readers mind, is this idea that what's really being shown, and especially if that topic is one which incites passion, is moral authority. Or worse that you're trying to dissuade them, because in secret you are actually in support of the company which (so far), essentially ripped them off...
This often gets out of hand, such as is the case with my inbox receiving a number of emails (5 total) concerning my blogposts posts here, and my posts in reference on the DakkaDakka forum.
Writing which, specifically concerns Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) by Palladium Books & the about to launch Rifts Board Game (RBG) by Rogue Heroes. The only thing I can attribute this to, is me asking (angry) nerds, that if they decided to troll the Rifts Board Game that...
1) It would be in bad taste, given the circumstances and based on what they were claiming they were going to say and...
2) That they might consider posting with consideration and stick to the facts without making it a personal endeavor.
Okay... Maybe I did insert some moral authority... What can I say? There is a difference in showing displeasure with someone (or a company) based on their work and attacking them personally. And that's my view and I (apparently) have no right to insert it...
Okay, I could have also said, that if you backed Robotech RPG Tactics, and didn't do any research into the company you are a moron... And that's my view and I (apparently) have no right to insert it...
After all what's good for the goose...
If you choose not to do any research into PB and you backed... Are you still angry...? And even though I might think it, would it be okay for me to call you (based on the failure of the project and the fact that you participated) a moron based on that? Really? An idiot... A fool (you) and his money are easily parted... so on and so forth excreta... No, it really wouldn't, and neither should it be. This sort of rhetoric could go on endlessly... Reap what you sow, but get off of my grass (or inbox) in the meantime. The truth is all of us have made mistakes, some worse than others...
And before anything explodes I'm not addressing the many reasoned and more eloquent voices of dissent, the ones that might actually say or post something "insightful" and give links to prove their points or in the least reference their "theories." Including distinguishing the difference in the first place... (You know who you are)
Unless you truly believe, that Palladium Books botched this on purpose and with ill intent, I say the time has come to give them (and all their mismanagements) some slack... And especially if you're planning to troll, with that certain way (which was explicitly detailed to me) out of line sort of intensity... Just don't.
Honestly, this is my last post on the topic, I'll edit in the links to the actual Kickstarter post (3:00pm). Not that I need to say it, but I have been a serious and (hopefully) thoughtful pundit of both the RRT and RBG from the get-go. I do not support either project, which I covered the reasons why here and here. Originally, I planned to address the trolls more specifically, but in the spirit of reasons to NOT back the Rift Board Game, I'm Not addressing the trolls more specifically, other than send a link to that forum. Reasoned discussion is always welcome in the comments, troll comments which intend to inflame me when I've spent the time urging friends and blog readers to not back this project is pretty F@#$in' ridiculous.
In truth, I've reached the point where this whole debacle makes me (watch your shoes) want to "gak-gaaahk-gak." In the spirit of moral authority lets consult an expert... from a church I'll never attend and seemed the most relevant to the topic at hand.
Top 3 Reasons Not to Back!!!
“No matter how bad things are, you can always make things worse.”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
“The key question to keep asking is, Are you spending your time on the right things? Because time is all you have. ”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
“People are more important than things.”
― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
OK.
surprising no one that it is Jeff Duncan.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Here is my final word on the topic. That's my last post (or concern)... And more appropriately its at my blog.
Best of luck to all. That's my last post here.
Jeff the problem with your theory is it is faulty at best, I can say one thing on the kickstarter and it will stick to the facts and nothing more and would kill that kickstarter faster then anything possible and Kevin gave me that evidence himself, it will be irrefutable it will be damaging and it will destroy the kickstarter. if not already destroyed Carmen.
Has anyone posted on BoardGameGeek?
i did a rudimentary search but there was no Game Entry that i could find.
I saw a lot of traffic for Savage Rifts Kickstarter from BBG.
It does seem odd that the#1 BG site wouldn't be utilized as a way of getting the word out about this prior to the launch of the KS, because it's as close to "free"* marketing that you're going to get, and that's not counting the advertising that could be purchased that would put the project on the front page.
Again, no promotion for this, other than what PB is pushing with their flyers and PBWU. But totally not a PB product and a great way to ensure success.
Its up.. but not live.. Seems kind of lacking for $100.. but that won't stop people from backing it.
There are a lot of people on Carmen's Facebook page praising it.. While others basically calling him
out about the connection with Palladium books.
hmm lets see games starting at $100 ($90 early bird) and a goal of $100K why do I feel this game will not fund, especially since even if it does he will not make enough to create it at that amount, he will need a minimum of $500K at minimum.
Rifts® is a popular pen and paper role-playing game that exploded onto the scene in 1990. It's multi-genre blend of science fiction, fantasy and horror set in an alien, post-apocalyptic, future Earth made it an instant hit. An overnight sensation, the initial press run of 10,000 copies sold out in three weeks. The Rifts® RPG has since become known to millions of gamers, spawned more than 90 RPG titles, and has been optioned by Walt Disney Pictures for development into a live action movie by Jerry Bruckheimer Films.
Now, for the first time ever, Rifts® is being made into a miniatures board game. Brought to life by game designer Carmen Bellaire, long-time Rifts® fan, and his top sculptors from around the world.
This game is endorsed 100% by Palladium Books and Rifts® creator Kevin Siembieda. “I cannot think of anyone better or more qualified than Carmen to bring Rifts® to life as a miniatures board game. I have loved everything I have seen from Rogue Heroes. This game is amazing and I hope Rifts® fans support and spread the word about this labor of love. The Rifts® Board Game is everything I could have hoped it would be. Best of luck to Carmen and his crew.” – Kevin Siembieda
Did he just...wish himself best of luck?!?
And all the RIFTS RPG stuff available as add-ons?
Isn't helping the "PB isn't involved here at all" narrative...
Rifts® is a popular pen and paper role-playing game that exploded onto the scene in 1990. It's multi-genre blend of science fiction, fantasy and horror set in an alien, post-apocalyptic, future Earth made it an instant hit. An overnight sensation, the initial press run of 10,000 copies sold out in three weeks. The Rifts® RPG has since become known to millions of gamers, spawned more than 90 RPG titles, and has been optioned by Walt Disney Pictures for development into a live action movie by Jerry Bruckheimer Films.
Now, for the first time ever, Rifts® is being made into a miniatures board game. Brought to life by game designer Carmen Bellaire, long-time Rifts® fan, and his top sculptors from around the world.
This game is endorsed 100% by Palladium Books and Rifts® creator Kevin Siembieda. “I cannot think of anyone better or more qualified than Carmen to bring Rifts® to life as a miniatures board game. I have loved everything I have seen from Rogue Heroes. This game is amazing and I hope Rifts® fans support and spread the word about this labor of love. The Rifts® Board Game is everything I could have hoped it would be. Best of luck to Carmen and his crew.” – Kevin Siembieda
Did he just...wish himself best of luck?!?
And all the RIFTS RPG stuff available as add-ons?
Isn't helping the "PB isn't involved here at all" narrative...
he might fund, but will he have enough to make the project? highly doubtful so far in the first batch he has 16 unique model designs which means 16 unique mold cuts and such, this project will get out of hand very quickly and extremely costly too, and then there is the shipping overseas and such to where he is, and if he ships it from Canada to the US, thats gonna get ugly expensive, but still there will be the cost of shipping added to the pledge of the game which will deter a many backers and such.
Merijeek wrote: You'd probably make a lot more sense most of the time if you didn't speak almost strictly in declarations.
I was making statements also I made a post on his query forum about some things and it vanished very fast.
also it appears his project is receiving some negative feedback in regards to cost (evidently it is being done at full retail price) and shipping costs.
Guys, given that there's a Rogue Heroes thread, can the OFF TOPIC Rogue Heroes gak be shunted off into that cesspool instead? Leave this cesspool for the RRT gak?
It's particularly amusing that a [MOD] is posting so much OFF TOPIC stuff here...
JohnHwangDD wrote: Guys, given that there's a Rogue Heroes thread, can the OFF TOPIC Rogue Heroes gak be shunted off into that cesspool instead? Leave this cesspool for the RRT gak?
It's particularly amusing that a [MOD] is posting so much OFF TOPIC stuff here...
Long time lurker (followed RRT since launch), first time poster.
So Wayne Smith is evidently a part of the Rifts BG given his "Collaborator" responses on the draft page - as he's clearly interacting, maybe would be a good time to ping him about that project the company that he works for is responsible for still delivering...
[edit] And both Wayne and the Kevster are listed as Collaborators under when you click on the Project Creator. Yeah, this isn't a Palladium project at all.
ok was looking thru old posts on the RRT kickstarter when i noticed I couldn't find Carmen's posts, but then found out why, he changed his name on Kickstarter to Casey.
well it was in regards to posts on RRT, nothing but RRT was mentioned about how I could not find posts on the RRT forums I knew to be there but could not be found till i found out why.
There hasn't been anything of substance to talk about in here for...what?
2 years or more now?
J.H.D.D. was doing some amusing mini-Mod'ing up there, so I thought I'd just run with it!
It IS interesting that he's 'changed his name', but I'm not sure what, if anything, it actually signifies.
only thing I can think of is how is outburst on the RRT forums might come back to haunt them and since he couldn't delete them he changed his name so as to not show up so easily. but that is just a theory.
Alpharius wrote: J.H.D.D. was doing some amusing mini-Mod'ing up there, so I thought I'd just run with it!
I was gonna say, if JH got moderatorship, we're all really screwed now...
It IS interesting that he's 'changed his name', but I'm not sure what, if anything, it actually signifies.
It doesn't take a Real Internet Detective to connect this 'random account' that said all these things on those dates with this name changed account that did the same thing, so I'm doubtful it's much more than trying to reassert a tiny bit of distance/privacy.
Maybe it's an attempt at a thinly veiled bit of distancing, maybe he just didn't want to have his personal break that happened in a very public manner easily searchable? Honestly, trying to get Kickstarter to delete the comments outright would probably be even wiser, though I'm sure it'd be seen entirely as having ulterior motives, and not because... y'know, he sort of had a spectacularly bad day on the internet (to put it very mildly).
That whole exchange was thoroughly documented on a bunch of sites, including this one, and I'd say at least a half dozen others. Changing the account name does little to remove the ease of google searching up the whole thing with screenshots and commentary.
Edit: obviously I'm not looking to defend PB, Carmen, or anyone here. I'm just wary of every little thing being brought up in a manner that most closely resembles an "ACCUSE!" moment in a bad law show or maybe Phoenix Wright game.
Sent a link and screenshot of last week's PBWU to infringements@gwplc.com last night. I don't expect anything to happen, but it wasn't much effort and would be hilarious if PB got a call from the evil empire. It's a shame that this didn't happen back when Kirby was running things, as I feel like GW would have been much more likely to do something back then.
Someone pass the popcorn. Rifts KS day 2 is starting soon. Someone should ask to see if they'll have Robotech crossover stretch goal.
In Thailand so my flag may look funny for a bit.
I had a bit of a panic attack when "on-topic" was being pushed for: How could that be managed?
I am rather hesitant to go look at the KS for Rifts... this is a whole different monster than the Savage Worlds one.
It is way too difficult to see this as a separate company offering.
Even if this manages to get some money in for PB, they have demonstrated they have no appetite fort RRT and the money would go wherever RRT's went.
No free-pass for criticism, I understand that bullying can be damaging but it feels like we are being blackmailed from criticizing what looks like an obvious money waster of a KS.
This is one of those few instances that I feel that exercising our better nature can be better spent elsewhere.
I got the main RTT box set and from what I could tell the models looked good. I haven't built them, but still. People in the new campaign thread are saying the china factory was bad, what was wrong with the factory that made them?
I did a regular pledge for RTT, I think it was $150.. I got the boxed game and a plastic bag filled with extra sprues (and somehow managed to get every sprue to fit in the box!).. was there anything from wave 2 I should still be waiting on, or was wave 2 mostly extra add on items?
The models are passable. There's a few flaws (the sides of the legs are flat on the VF's in fighter mode) etc. But for what they are, they're ok.
They're a lot of work to assemble properly (well over an hour per model) and you need to do some sanding and putty work to hide seams etc for a decent standard of finish.
The tooling isn't bad (for what it is - basic 2 plate injection mould), but the layout isn't optimal, nor is the part breakdown (position of seams) brilliant. That's what causes the majority of the problems, not the actual number of parts. Folks don't really realise that; they think it's just a lot of parts when it's actually those parts being difficult to put together and clean up to look nice.
Yes, you and the over 4,500 other people pledging battlecry or more are still waiting on a fair amount of stuff from a basic battlecry pledge ($130+)
At kickstarter addon price (not retail):
Rick & Roy VF-1's ($30)
2 Super Valkyrie ($35)
Khyron Officer pod ($15)
Mirya Female Power armour ($15)
2 Lancers ($20/2 = $10)
2 Ghost ($20/2 = $10)
3 Female Power armour ($30)
3 Male Power armour ($20)
3 Gnerl fighters ($15)
So, $180 minimum at KS addon rates. PB basically owe significantly over a million in product at retail.
GuyverBlue wrote: I am NOT defending Carmen or PB but I do work for an electric utility as a GIS/OMS technician. It is possible for a single residence to be out of power to any number of reasons: issues inside the residence itself, service to the residence, transformer issues and more.
yeah thing like not paying the power bill ? but wait, does that mean he doesn't have a smart phone since he could have done a facebook page update on a phone now too.
I meant to post earlier but got sidetracked. My last job had me running around a good portion of southern Indiana quite often and there were many areas that had homes I went to with little or no cell reception. So it is conceivable that someone couldn't log onto FB because their power went out. And from personal experience up until two Novembers ago I didn't own a smart phone, just a flip phone that I bought in 2008. I doubt I would have been able to open FB on that. Having said that, I have no clue about Carmen's cell phone reception where he lives, nor do I know what kind of phone he owns. I also agree with you that their reasoning for a lack of an update at that point doesn't pass the smell test.
winterdyne wrote: The models are passable. There's a few flaws (the sides of the legs are flat on the VF's in fighter mode) etc. But for what they are, they're ok.
They're a lot of work to assemble properly (well over an hour per model) and you need to do some sanding and putty work to hide seams etc for a decent standard of finish.
The tooling isn't bad (for what it is - basic 2 plate injection mould), but the layout isn't optimal, nor is the part breakdown (position of seams) brilliant. That's what causes the majority of the problems, not the actual number of parts. Folks don't really realise that; they think it's just a lot of parts when it's actually those parts being difficult to put together and clean up to look nice.
Yes, you and the over 4,500 other people pledging battlecry or more are still waiting on a fair amount of stuff from a basic battlecry pledge ($130+)
At kickstarter addon price (not retail):
Rick & Roy VF-1's ($30)
2 Super Valkyrie ($35)
Khyron Officer pod ($15)
Mirya Female Power armour ($15)
2 Lancers ($20/2 = $10)
2 Ghost ($20/2 = $10)
3 Female Power armour ($30)
3 Male Power armour ($20)
3 Gnerl fighters ($15)
So, $180 minimum at KS addon rates. PB basically owe significantly over a million in product at retail.
and that is not counting add-ons and the resin add-ons seriously what was their excuse for not doing the resin bases again ?
well this is what I sent kickstarter about the RBG:
This project is in violation of your rules and guidelines and federal law in the US:
1: this project creator states it is located in Livonia, Mi. but a check of said company in that state or even in the USA does not exist, said company on their own website does state they are located in Canada.
2: said project is selling product in their project (under add-ons) related to another company and that is just product being resold which violates your rules here: "Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere."
3: said project creator came onto another project and threatened the backers that if this project does not fund he will make sure the other project burns. messages can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/415122038/comments
Asterios wrote: and that is not counting add-ons and the resin add-ons seriously what was their excuse for not doing the resin bases again ?
"We couldn't be arsed"
Pretty much this. Though it's as much what do they do if they did print it. People would be pissed if they sold it. PB can't afford to ship it as a W1.5. Having it sit in the warehouse would generate some ire. Etc.
Honestly, the resin components has been my barometer of when Wave 2 is going to happen. Given the leadup time, and the amount of resin that needs to be mastered, molded, produced and QC'd, the completion of the resin would be an indication that Wave 2 was almost ready. If they wait until after Wave 2 is being manufactured, certain deliveries may be held up waiting for the resin components to be complete.
I mean, that'd be a very PB thing to do (Oh, we can't send you what is over 4 years late, because the thing we've had the capacity to do for 5 years, we haven't done yet, and we can't afford to ship after the fact). But I think there have been enough mentions of the resins that it'd surprise (but not shock) me if they actually forgot about them.
n815e wrote: Let's see. If it funds, they get at least $5k for doing nothing.
.
Joking aside, KS hosts the web traffic and often promotes Kickstarters, not to mention handling the $$$ at the end of the campaign. It's not NOTHING, though it can seem WAY out of proportion when a KS does a huge volume. I wonder at what dollar value breakpoint KS starts to actually turn a profit on an individual project.
Yeah, I get it, creators get to use their platform, benefit from its brand recognition and get some small amount of support in exchange for that money.
But the majority of the real work of Kickstarter was done years ago in building the thing. Now it is mainly just following the steps of a standard process, addressing problems and doing occasional enhancements.
For example, they don't have a team of people working with creators to build great project pages, financial consultants to help ensure that creators are setting goals correctly to help ensure project success, insurance for failure, do targeted advertising, an admin team that can customize the project pages to fit creator needs/wants, or a customer support team that does more than ignore most requests.
They really are, essentially, doing next to nothing for the fee.
Good for them for building it and getting it going.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "JR" wrote:
IF this is Palladium Books that is really running this project (and I don't think it is, but IF you are), go ahead and use any money left from RTT to make this an awesome game and get it out to these backers. It's obvious their supporters hate you anyways, so don't spend another minute or dollar on them. Spend the money where it will do the most good. It's plain that nothing you do or say will please them anyways so you don't lose any friends.
It's amazing. I'm hoping this guy pledged a large amount of money.
Well with Kid_Kyoto it can be hard to tell at times, when you think hes going left, he goes right, when you think hes going up, he goes down, hes a rascally one.
n815e wrote: Yeah, I get it, creators get to use their platform, benefit from its brand recognition and get some small amount of support in exchange for that money.
But the majority of the real work of Kickstarter was done years ago in building the thing. Now it is mainly just following the steps of a standard process, addressing problems and doing occasional enhancements.
For example, they don't have a team of people working with creators to build great project pages, financial consultants to help ensure that creators are setting goals correctly to help ensure project success, insurance for failure, do targeted advertising, an admin team that can customize the project pages to fit creator needs/wants, or a customer support team that does more than ignore most requests.
Given the diversity of the things that are backed on Kickstarters, I don't see how they could do several of these things. One project is making a video game, another is making miniatures, the third is making bicycle wheels, the fourth is renovating a theater. Given how long KS has been going so far, they shouldn't need to financially consult creators. There are endless articles online about how to successfully Kickstart and what pitfalls to watch out for, and basically every KS is still available to peruse, and potentially contact the creators for advice (whether they give it or not is another matter).
Failure insurance would be nice, but...project creators can do that themselves? You can literally get insurance on anything these days, but insuring a $100k project by some nobody is going to run more than 5% of 100K. As to targeted adverts, they could indeed do that ("Hey you backed this project, you might like this other project"), but at some point it's going to be basically spamming everyone who ever backed everything and I don't think people would appreciate it.
They really are, essentially, doing next to nothing for the fee.
Don't forget that credit cards charge vendors a fee as well - somewhere in the region of 1.5-3% of the amount. So Kickstarter might be taking 5%, but since they're collecting from mostly credit cards, they might only get 2-3.5% when all is said and done. And if a project fails to fund, Kickstarter gets bumpkis, but hosting the volume of web traffic that they do isn't free by any means. And then there's the staff necessary to do the things they actually do, even if it's formulaic at this point, it still has to be done by people who need income.
This is not to imply that Kickstarter isn't making good money, but I've yet to see any project creator begrudge them the 5% cut they take.
n815e wrote: Yeah, I get it, creators get to use their platform, benefit from its brand recognition and get some small amount of support in exchange for that money.
But the majority of the real work of Kickstarter was done years ago in building the thing. Now it is mainly just following the steps of a standard process, addressing problems and doing occasional enhancements.
For example, they don't have a team of people working with creators to build great project pages, financial consultants to help ensure that creators are setting goals correctly to help ensure project success, insurance for failure, do targeted advertising, an admin team that can customize the project pages to fit creator needs/wants, or a customer support team that does more than ignore most requests.
Given the diversity of the things that are backed on Kickstarters, I don't see how they could do several of these things. One project is making a video game, another is making miniatures, the third is making bicycle wheels, the fourth is renovating a theater. Given how long KS has been going so far, they shouldn't need to financially consult creators. There are endless articles online about how to successfully Kickstart and what pitfalls to watch out for, and basically every KS is still available to peruse, and potentially contact the creators for advice (whether they give it or not is another matter).
Failure insurance would be nice, but...project creators can do that themselves? You can literally get insurance on anything these days, but insuring a $100k project by some nobody is going to run more than 5% of 100K. As to targeted adverts, they could indeed do that ("Hey you backed this project, you might like this other project"), but at some point it's going to be basically spamming everyone who ever backed everything and I don't think people would appreciate it.
They really are, essentially, doing next to nothing for the fee.
Don't forget that credit cards charge vendors a fee as well - somewhere in the region of 1.5-3% of the amount. So Kickstarter might be taking 5%, but since they're collecting from mostly credit cards, they might only get 2-3.5% when all is said and done. And if a project fails to fund, Kickstarter gets bumpkis, but hosting the volume of web traffic that they do isn't free by any means. And then there's the staff necessary to do the things they actually do, even if it's formulaic at this point, it still has to be done by people who need income.
This is not to imply that Kickstarter isn't making good money, but I've yet to see any project creator begrudge them the 5% cut they take.
about the fees, they can be found and explained here:
I usually attribute 10% to the entire KS fees(KS and credit card).
also on a side note, the Pro-PB/RH backers on the RBG are now starting to sound like they are in the denial stage they experienced in the RRT project, talking about they can talk ideas which PB can do and so forth and so forth.
Given the diversity of the things that are backed on Kickstarters, I don't see how they could do several of these things. One project is making a video game, another is making miniatures, the third is making bicycle wheels, the fourth is renovating a theater. Given how long KS has been going so far, they shouldn't need to financially consult creators.
I'm merely pointing out potential services, as examples, that they could provide for their fees.
Compared to other platforms in other industries, they offer bare bones service and they drop inexperienced creators into a pool of sharks. Some paid consultants offer help or free, well-meaning individuals isn't the same.
They also don't recognize that they have two sets of customers. The ones that generate the funding and the ones that provide the funding. They have done everything they can to protect the generators of funds, while offering nothing to the providers of those funds other than "lip service". That has actually cost them, since it doesn't recognize the fundamental truth that continued funding isn't going to come from those sources that have been burned by this.
I will probably never back another kickstarter project, even from companies I trust and have experience with, because doing so provides money to support Kickstarter itself, which does nothing to uphold the standards and rules it sets for creators. That's 5% of whatever I would have pledged on each project that interested me that they are losing, times however many unsatisfied customers.
Given the diversity of the things that are backed on Kickstarters, I don't see how they could do several of these things. One project is making a video game, another is making miniatures, the third is making bicycle wheels, the fourth is renovating a theater. Given how long KS has been going so far, they shouldn't need to financially consult creators.
I'm merely pointing out potential services, as examples, that they could provide for their fees.
If Kickstarter is doing market research and advising Kickstarters, then they're basically either investors in the project or they ARE the project. Either option would be a bad business decision. Kickstarter gives you a platform to stand on to raise funds, and they handle the funds. They built the platform intentionally to not take any responsibility for the project's success or failure - and they make that pretty clear up front. I don't fault them for that, if they did, they'd have to charge WAY, way more than they currently do.
Note the average successful KS in 2015 was worth $11,222, of which $561 would be Kickstarter's cut, plus the money handling fee you mentioned. $561 on average doesn't pay for a lot of services overall.
Kickstarter would be more fair if the % dropped off as the dollar value went up, but at the moment very small kickstarters ($1000 or less) pay very little for the platform. You could say the big guys are subsidizing the small ones.
Compared to other platforms in other industries, they offer bare bones service and they drop inexperienced creators into a pool of sharks. Some paid consultants offer help or free, well-meaning individuals isn't the same.
Can you expand on this? The other platforms in other industries. I know for-profit fundraisers (for charitable organizations) do all the work but take the lion's share of the money as well.
They also don't recognize that they have two sets of customers.
I don't quite agree. Their customers are the project creators. Just like an advertising firm's customers are the products they're designing for. The backers are the customers of the project creator. Kickstarter facilitates the transfer of money between the two, it's true, but so does your credit card company. Did you stop using VISA/Mastercard as well? Did they give you a refund when the project went south? Of course not.
Given the diversity of the things that are backed on Kickstarters, I don't see how they could do several of these things. One project is making a video game, another is making miniatures, the third is making bicycle wheels, the fourth is renovating a theater. Given how long KS has been going so far, they shouldn't need to financially consult creators.
I'm merely pointing out potential services, as examples, that they could provide for their fees.
If Kickstarter is doing market research and advising Kickstarters, then they're basically either investors in the project or they ARE the project. Either option would be a bad business decision. Kickstarter gives you a platform to stand on to raise funds, and they handle the funds. They built the platform intentionally to not take any responsibility for the project's success or failure - and they make that pretty clear up front. I don't fault them for that, if they did, they'd have to charge WAY, way more than they currently do.
Note the average successful KS in 2015 was worth $11,222, of which $561 would be Kickstarter's cut, plus the money handling fee you mentioned. $561 on average doesn't pay for a lot of services overall.
Kickstarter would be more fair if the % dropped off as the dollar value went up, but at the moment very small kickstarters ($1000 or less) pay very little for the platform. You could say the big guys are subsidizing the small ones.
Compared to other platforms in other industries, they offer bare bones service and they drop inexperienced creators into a pool of sharks. Some paid consultants offer help or free, well-meaning individuals isn't the same.
Can you expand on this? The other platforms in other industries. I know for-profit fundraisers (for charitable organizations) do all the work but take the lion's share of the money as well.
They also don't recognize that they have two sets of customers.
I don't quite agree. Their customers are the project creators. Just like an advertising firm's customers are the products they're designing for. The backers are the customers of the project creator. Kickstarter facilitates the transfer of money between the two, it's true, but so does your credit card company. Did you stop using VISA/Mastercard as well? Did they give you a refund when the project went south? Of course not.
I disagree, Kickstarter does need to change their way of handeling things, since with the current laws and Kickstarters hands off approach, Kickstarter has become nothing more then a legal loophole for scammers to operate.
I don't quite agree. Their customers are the project creators. Just like an advertising firm's customers are the products they're designing for. The backers are the customers of the project creator. Kickstarter facilitates the transfer of money between the two, it's true, but so does your credit card company. Did you stop using VISA/Mastercard as well? Did they give you a refund when the project went south? Of course not.
My credit card companies don't provide a means for people to scam me out of money. In fact, they do what they can to protect against that.
Kickstarter is nothing without the backers. If the platform fails to do anything more than protect itself and the creators, eventually enough backers will decide to take their business elsewhere.
Can you expand on this? The other platforms in other industries.
LinkedIn - provides a service, advertises, support is good, I don't have to go elsewhere to learn how to use it effectively.
n815e wrote: My credit card companies don't provide a means for people to scam me out of money. In fact, they do what they can to protect against that.
But did they refund you when you got scammed on Kickstarter? No, because Kickstarter is up front about the fact that there are risks.
Now, I too would like it if Kickstarter did something about enforcing its own TOS - stomping on a few bad apples would probably help in that regard. For reference: https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment. Apparently KS has a 9% failure rate on backed projects, though it varies with the definition of 'failure'. However, it's something all crowdfunding platforms suffer from - Indiegogo and GoFundMe have their own notable scams.
Personally, I back very few projects anymore. The creator has to be known to me in some fashion (reputable) or I"m not touching it, and even then, well, I've got so much miniatures stuff now I have little need to back any more projects (painting backlog from here to eternity).
n815e wrote: My credit card companies don't provide a means for people to scam me out of money. In fact, they do what they can to protect against that.
But did they refund you when you got scammed on Kickstarter? No, because Kickstarter is up front about the fact that there are risks.
Actually, I know at least one backer did (Azazelx?). The reason why more people weren't able to, wasn't because the risks were there, it was because of the timeframes involved. Most credit cards have a limit that is easily surpassed by Kickstarter timelines. I remember when it all went pear shaped for RRT, and most cards were found to have a 90 or 180 day policy. So it's not about risk, as much as it's about the bureaucracy of the banking industry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Latest PBWU is here.
Kevin is out sick (hidden subtext, "sick and tired of you donkey caves"). Wayne posting.
All core RPG's 30% off.
That's it. Everything else is a cut and paste until Kevin is back next week.
I rate this PBWU BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Normally, I use the facepalm emoji, but given the circumstances, I just can't even...
n815e wrote: My credit card companies don't provide a means for people to scam me out of money. In fact, they do what they can to protect against that.
But did they refund you when you got scammed on Kickstarter? No, because Kickstarter is up front about the fact that there are risks.
Actually, no. Chase didn't refund me because I didn't contact them within the first 500 days of the RRT Kickstarter closing.
It's Kickstarter's terms and conditions that allow a KS to continue ad infinitum. Because, you know, they're 'working on it'.
Morgan Vening wrote: Actually, I know at least one backer did (Azazelx?). The reason why more people weren't able to, wasn't because the risks were there, it was because of the timeframes involved. Most credit cards have a limit that is easily surpassed by Kickstarter timelines. I remember when it all went pear shaped for RRT, and most cards were found to have a 90 or 180 day policy. So it's not about risk, as much as it's about the bureaucracy of the banking industry.
That's actually very interesting. It almost might be worth getting a credit card with long-term policies just for Kickstarter backing. When Ninja Division "pulled out" of the RTT, that would have been the ideal time to bail, though we didn't really know how badly Palladium would bungle it.
Morgan Vening wrote: Actually, I know at least one backer did (Azazelx?). The reason why more people weren't able to, wasn't because the risks were there, it was because of the timeframes involved. Most credit cards have a limit that is easily surpassed by Kickstarter timelines. I remember when it all went pear shaped for RRT, and most cards were found to have a 90 or 180 day policy. So it's not about risk, as much as it's about the bureaucracy of the banking industry.
That's actually very interesting. It almost might be worth getting a credit card with long-term policies just for Kickstarter backing. When Ninja Division "pulled out" of the RTT, that would have been the ideal time to bail, though we didn't really know how badly Palladium would bungle it.
Actually, I almost wonder if a CC company could make a viable model of "insuring" your crowdfunding pledges so long as a balance equal to the pledge amount is kept on the card and the project is past their estimated delivery date and evidence of non-delivery is provided. A mildly higher interest rate combined with the long windows of most crowdfunding campaigns have would likely rack up a decent amount of income, and then if they had some mechanism with KS to transfer ownership of the pledge/standing that would give the CC larger and larger dollar amounts to go after a bad creator if it was warranted. Few backers would go to the mat for a few hundred dollars, but a CC company could almost write off legal fees as advertising for the card and its "protections" while KS acquires a sort-of enforcement arm without having to do anything (their preferred model); I imagine a fair few RTT would love such a card to get their outstanding funds back AND watch PB twist in court.
I doubt it'd catch on, but it does make you wonder.
EDIT: Look Ma! I'm the top of page 300! And people said I'd never accomplish anything...
WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.
We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well I think they want to clear everything for the Rifts GB KS but I don't think it work. Man I' m very tame compare to others RTT backers. Oh well
Er NMI does not have the banhammer over on Facebook, so it was all down to WAyne, purging the deplorables who do not buy into PB's everything is wobderful eyhos.
I was surprised to be banned myself, but then again their page their rules and if you just want to stick yur fingers in your ears , fair enough.
Wonder what happens next, especially in refards to RTT, the failure of gRifts BG seems to leave them with virtually no ecuses left for not doing something about RTT , if they were serious.
However, I would be surprised if we even get an update - unless it is to tell us all off for being so negatice. Surely even Kevinmust realise that he has to do something concrete and accountable for RTT, otherwise he is poisoning the well for any other PB projects - by them or other and the film talk is as always just Kev;s vapourware speak.
If ever there was a wake up call the gFifts fiasco was it, but it will be a shock if Kevin does anything
It isn't a wake up call to them. I am sure, in their minds, RRT backers are just so mean they will ruin all that is good and it has nothing to do with their behavior.
If failing sales aren't a wake up call, if not being able to keep the lights on isn't a wake up call....
I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.
Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore. Palladium couldn't even raise $100k in faithful money so that's a clear indication no one trusts them anymore. It wasn't Robotech backers running people off, it was Carmen taking EVERYTHING from Kevin's kickstarter advice. Make sure you can sell at conventions first! Make sure you can go to retailers first! Make sure you say the backers have nothing to say about anything once you have the sweet sweet monies.
Basically it proved Kavvin learned nothing. We learned that giving Palladium 1.44 million dollars makes us insufferable people that Kevin wishes would basically die. Appy$1.44 million isn't enough to bring Palladium's dream to life.
TwoGunBob wrote: Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore. Palladium couldn't even raise $100k in faithful money so that's a clear indication no one trusts them anymore. It wasn't Robotech backers running people off, it was Carmen taking EVERYTHING from Kevin's kickstarter advice. Make sure you can sell at conventions first! Make sure you can go to retailers first! Make sure you say the backers have nothing to say about anything once you have the sweet sweet monies.
Basically it proved Kavvin learned nothing. We learned that giving Palladium 1.44 million dollars makes us insufferable people that Kevin wishes would basically die. Appy$1.44 million isn't enough to bring Palladium's dream to life.
I agree 100% with your post. Now poor Kev is sick right now. Well let see what come of it. Oh by the way its Mother Day so everyone give MOM a Big Hug.
I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.
TwoGunBob wrote: Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to reach this conclusion. Savage Worlds Rifts being popular/well received doesn't necessarily translate into sales of old Rifts stuff. Folks can/will wait for Savage Worlds to do the conversions rather than spend hundreds of dollars on obsolete, bloated rules with poor production values.
DEZOAT wrote: WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.
We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm
They go on banning sprees every so often. I got nabbed a year or two ago (can't even recall when at this point), but never said anything 'nasty'. I pointedly made sure I kept my critique factual, but when you're floundering as hard as they have been for as long as they've been, the saying "the truth hurts" takes on new meaning.
My favourite part of his comment though, is the tacit admission that they get more negative attention than anything.
" If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here."
Yes, Wayne. Yes there would. Why don't you think on that for a bit. Ask yourself why that might be.
DEZOAT wrote: WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.
We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm
They go on banning sprees every so often. I got nabbed a year or two ago (can't even recall when at this point), but never said anything 'nasty'. I pointedly made sure I kept my critique factual, but when you're floundering as hard as they have been for as long as they've been, the saying "the truth hurts" takes on new meaning.
My favourite part of his comment though, is the tacit admission that they get more negative attention than anything.
" If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here."
Yes, Wayne. Yes there would. Why don't you think on that for a bit. Ask yourself why that might be.
You know I think I know why I was banned from PB Facebook. I may fun of Ken Cooke when he went on a rant of the RTT Backer for Uncle Kev. I made fun of a family member that why I was banned. Most of my post was how Rifts was getting all the love then Robotech. The other was I better see 7000 backer and 2 mil after the RBG KS. I don't think I was that mean and like I posted I' m tame.
I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.
Where was this posted?!?
A couple of years ago, I think, in a weekly update. It was after the RRT kickstarter, since I wasn't paying attention to them before then. Kevin asked people to spread the word about the company as a response, instead of investing in advertising, engaging new customers, supporting their "ambassadors", having a positive on line presence, or improving their business practices...
I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.
Where was this posted?!?
A couple of years ago, I think, in a weekly update. It was after the RRT kickstarter, since I wasn't paying attention to them before then. Kevin asked people to spread the word about the company as a response, instead of investing in advertising, engaging new customers, supporting their "ambassadors", having a positive on line presence, or improving their business practices...
problem is word is being spread about PB, problem is none of it is good.
Well, the GenCon Event List is live, and we can see what's available for competitive play. I told Forar to post it up (couldn't do it from work), but he's being a temperamental lazy zergling, and didn't want to.
A search for Robotech lists 16 events.
Of those, it breaks down as follows.
7 RPG events (so, not what we're talking about here)
7 non-tourney, no/little experience, material provided, essentially extended demo events (important, but again, not the topic of discussion)
2 events listed as a tournament.
Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).
Here's the directlinks, but the general info is as follows.
Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.
So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.
Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.
Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.
Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.
Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.
* The term Exclusive doesn't really have any meaning anymore, but it's still the term PB use.
But otherwise, I think it's actually a reasonable start for the tournament organizer in terms of keeping everything manageable. Hope he gets the numbers he needs to make it a fun time for everyone.
Morgan Vening wrote: Well, the GenCon Event List is live, and we can see what's available for competitive play. I told Forar to post it up (couldn't do it from work), but he's being a temperamental lazy zergling, and didn't want to.
A search for Robotech lists 16 events.
Of those, it breaks down as follows.
7 RPG events (so, not what we're talking about here)
7 non-tourney, no/little experience, material provided, essentially extended demo events (important, but again, not the topic of discussion)
2 events listed as a tournament.
Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).
Here's the directlinks, but the general info is as follows.
Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.
So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.
Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.
Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.
Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.
Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.
* The term Exclusive doesn't really have any meaning anymore, but it's still the term PB use.
But otherwise, I think it's actually a reasonable start for the tournament organizer in terms of keeping everything manageable. Hope he gets the numbers he needs to make it a fun time for everyone.
Well they might be hard pressed for time unless they cut the rolls in half and remove half the dodging, swerving or jinking or whatever save items they have, but then if they only allow those items they have made, then it will make for a very poor game with UEDF crushing the Zents every time, question is who will be playing Zents? or will it be UEDF vs. UEDF? but then that brings in if they even have enough players, sorry but the time slot is bad, you want either an early morning or later afternoon slot, not around lunch time slot, when most of the other goodies are going too.
I will have to look again at both sides , but I seem to remember that low points games tended to favour the Zents rather than the UEDF, inso much they get more models on table and potentially can swamp the rock hard UEDF.
Almost, makes me want to dust down a few models and have a game
Point was wave one is actually balanced if you build your forces right. Building "right" is just a little more difficult and costs more more money for zents beyond the core box than it does for uedf
I see the RRT Commentary is currently having a small unofficial poll over whether on not people would be willing to re-pay for shipping Wave 2 if it meant getting their stuff. Several have volunteered to, and several have said nopes.
My question is, would those people who are willing to pay be fine paying if others weren't? Because shipping in some cases is going to be excessive, especially international backers, exacerbated if VAT etc is included. And as it is unfair to volunteer not just yourself, but all backers, to require shipping to deliver on the outstanding contract, what you would essentially be doing is donating money to Palladium.
I'm just not sure if those offering to pay for shipping would balk at the idea, if others didn't. I've noticed an intrinsic issue people have with things being fair. One campaign that's late, offered everyone a free reward for being late. Completely free, no extra cost. But the people who pledged the most, got comparatively less (people paying less than $70 got +$40 value, people paying $70+ got +$30 value). And people got angry. Another campaign offered an expansion of the core components of several expansions totaling ~$90 for a flat $50. But some people already paid for some of those as an option, and so those that paid in advance would have paid $90, and those who did this add-on several years later got the same product for $50.
So, I'm curious if any of the people willing to pay shipping for Wave 2 (several who post here), would be willing to do so if it'd essentially be a donation, when others wouldn't.
I paid a little extra shipping to get my Kingdom Death stuff, and I groused a little bit. In the case of Palladium, my willingness to pay shipping depends in large part on what, exactly, Wave 2 is going to be like.
If Wave 2 is going to match Wave 1, such that everything matches in scale, material and detail (specifically the MAC-II Monster that I paid extra for), then I'd be willing to pay $10-ish to get it.
If Wave 2 is going to be gakky lo-rez, lo-fi PVC, then no fething way. PB should pay for that.
You are unrelenting! 
