A little nostalgia is what brought me to Robotech tactics, but what sold me on the premise was the fact they were saying it was 98% complete and being handled by Ninja Division.
The only part of the puzzle that Palladium games was said to be doing was to help with Harmony gold licencing.
Soon after the backing ended everything started to change for the worse and continued down that road.
It also made me pass on a number of good Kickstarters in fear that they where all some form of bad.. But now I am a lot more cautious and look at the track records with what they are promising.
What future does Palladium games have?? 5000+ backers is actually a lot of people to upset with the total population of table top gamers as a whole..
Games Workshop train-wrecked Age of Sigmar but they have turned it around plus grew by leaps and bounds to try to resolve the issue. I don't see PG doing that ever..
CaptKaruthors wrote: Now, that being said...the level of rage lobbed in his direction was really childish and petty
You didn't actually read the exchange, did you?
Because I've gone over it a few times (my own comment and those of others), and while obviously he took things to heart in a hard way, that wasn't a fraction as ugly as "Spartangate" was, or the pre-Gencon 'vote', or any number of controversies.
You're making it sound like he was dogpiled by dozens of people hurling horrific invective.
Other than a heated exchange with Jay D, and a little snark from a few others (yes, myself included) based on his insultingly aggressive opening statements, let's try to keep perspective that while this exchange may have been the final straw for him, we had nothing to do with the leadup to that, nor any way of knowing that he was in a fragile state of mind.
He picked the fight, and I'm sorry that it went fething sideways as it did, but a little perspective and context are necessary as well.
Edit: yes, some people have had an... impressively narrow focus on "Sorry about Carmen, ps where is Wave Two?" in the comments. That certainly can come across as crass and crude. I think it's an extension of the general disdain people have for Kevin's attempt to paint the entire backer base in a negative light with this latest tragedy, and are responding with a figurative 'flip him the bird' for how little they accept the guilt and blame he's trying to lay upon them.
To an outsider it's probably kinda gross. Some people probably are being kinda gross. But again, in a project with over 5,000 backers, painting us ALL in any light based on the actions or words of a couple (or a couple dozen) when we have little or no control over the community is, as I noted above, just attempting to use this situation/controversy/tragedy to ones own end. Which is in itself inappropriate. Bluntly put, coming in on a high horse and yelling YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK in one fashion or another to show off how disappointed you are is just virtue signaling by another form.
And none of us here are 'outsiders'. We should know most of this history by now, so take your outrage and direct it towards where it belongs.
There are alot of people emerging from the woodwork to slam and accuse the RTT backers - or at least those who have have been keeping up to date ove rthe years - without bothering to read the actual dialogue anyway.
The real issue still remains the spider at the centre of the web, Mr kevin Sembiada, who has used this as an opportunity to not only act disgracefully towards a friend but to effectively tell everyone that it was the fault of those despicable , ungrateful so and so's on the RTT boards, afterall they do the same to him everytime he tells us of his troubles
Sorry, Palladium will simply turn this into the mega excuse for not delivering this year andconsider themselves off the hook.
Really, it's not like they were actually on some sort of hook. Just "totes working on it, swearsies, kthxbai" would, based on 2016, been more than enough to cover them for 2017.
wilycoyote wrote: Sorry, Palladium will simply turn this into the mega excuse for not delivering this year andconsider themselves off the hook.
Shifting blame onto the vocal dissatisfied backers has been the play for years. There are just more of them and fewer open supporters now.
It would not surprise me if this event was used as an out. I know that comes from a jaded place from having watched this campaign for years, but it really does seem to be the exact kind of thing they would use to try to get out from under this. At the absolute minimum this will be used as further justification to continue to not engage the backer community in the future.
Joyboozer wrote: Where did this "Kickstarter have likely removed the worst comments" gak come from?
Merijeek wrote: It's a way to reconcile the idea of "There is no evidence of anything all that gakky in the comments" and "Kevin wouldn't lie".
In case anyone who engages with a Kevin conspiracy theorist and wants to point out to them that when Kickstarter deletes a post, the post still exists.
They remove the body of the text, and replace it with this. "This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.".
Wow, forget I had a profile which probably dates back to an ill-fated 40K tournament I was trying to promote on behalf of someone that could have cared less about actually running the tournament.
There's a lot of flak being thrown that people agree with Kevin without actually taking five minutes out to read the exchange and it drives me bonkers.
We'll never know but is it possible Carmen was under a strict deadline to have the kickstarter under way and Kevon was giving him a deaf ear when Carmen was reporting how bad the reception to his game was? It's one of those things, I think everyone knows what kind of businessman Kevin is and I can imagine the Rogue Games/Palladium contract was very much in favor of Kevin in all factors. I've said multiple times over at the kickstarter page that you will not be seeing any update regarding Carmen getting freed of his Palladium contract and money returned. Likely Kevin will pursue a breach of contract with Carmen and try to quietly seize whatever assets are promised and try to twist it into producing the board game to help his friend.
I feel like a conspiracy theorist even writing this stuff but I can't imagine a few barbed comments sending Carmen over the edge like that.
I'm just in shock on many of the venomous responses in the actual update itself.
I'm just really, really hoping this fiasco will be over one way or the other very soon. I was trying to stay away from KS, but the latest events have dragged me back in once again...
Manchu wrote: Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.
It won't be defended until a lawyer gets involved (somebody remind me what happened to that paralegal who said he was going to take action). In the meantime, KS (both of them!) can do whatever they want.
Back before 2013, Singh is a lawyer and he filed a lawsuit against Seth Quest of the Hanfree (Ipad holder) KS: "As far as the bankruptcy is concerned, my lawsuit was actually little more than a small claims lawsuit. If you file a real lawsuit in Arizona you file that in superior court. I filed it in a court that is lower than that called the justice court, and it’s not actually small claims court. For legal reasons, I didn’t file it in small claims. It has to do with the fact that I wanted a declaration that we were not investors, we were buyers. You can’t do that in small claims court, so I filed it in justice court." http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/why-this-jilted-kickstarter-backer-decided-to-sue-why-he-was-right/
Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.
@ced1106 Interesting read which leaves me wondering about culpability in the wording of the kickstarter itself. Kevin has done the minimal amount of work necessary to satisfy whatever grounds there are to justify that work has not stopped on the kickstarter altogether. We know this thing is as dead as a parrot in a funny Monty Python sketch but it appears Kevin knows how much has to be done for it not to be legally considered a deceased, departed project. I try to look at this not as 'toy robots' as so many are quick to dismiss it but as a $1.4 million dollar investment that could be suffering from fund misappropriation or just flat out mishandling and lack of foresight into how the finances were needed to produce the game.
The venturebeat article gave me some food for thought but I don't know how much applies in light of Palladium producing enough empty soothing platitudes to appear as still having momentum.
Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.
Well since there isn't going to be progress on RRT anyway I wouldn't see that as a bad result.
Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.
I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMOPB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.
Manchu wrote: Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.
I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMOPB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.
For me, them shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome, as in.... not enough.
I would propose that Palladium Books continuing to offer kinds of "pre-orders" that stretch into years at a time and taking customer money is the least favorable outcome.
Rifts could be sold off as part of bankruptcy and may still see life.
The certainty of taking a run at PB legally and "losing" RRT is very low in relevance now.
Plus NMI really needs to find a better hobby than the Palladium forums: I am certain it will do him good.
Manchu wrote: Let's also keep the discussion grounded: the project has already delivered to a significant degree. Whatever any of us think of Kevin Siembieda, RRT has been released and backers have received a portion of our rewards.
I would. I may have no interest in PB products like Rifts but there are many people who like them a lot. IMOPB shutting down would be an unfavorable outcome.
A favourable outcome here is so very far into the reaches of extremely unlikely territory, that it's actually somewhere beyond the second coming and the resurrection of mecha-Kennedy to oust Trump.
It would require PB having the funds to deliver, or refund. I suspect they're running on fumes, so this shitshow is going to continue for a long while yet, or they'll have to go bankrupt to protect personal assets. I'd rather just have it over with now.
Well this where I part company with a lot of you - I'd like to see PB not only survive but also thrive, for the sake of the people who like Rifts, etc. ... and of course because I'd love to see more RRT stuff. But PB will never thrive as long as Kevin can profit from abusive business practices. So I see the right thing for backers to do is pass on the truth of how poorly managed RRT has been and that Kevin has shown no real progress on turning that around. As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.
As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.
I can see what you're saying and certainly other gaming companies have made positive reforms that have people talking. But I can't see anything happening to change PB's reputation so long as Kevin is at the helm, and I can't see him stepping down peaceably.
So, I don't know. I think that the first step is for people to steer clear, the rest is up to the company. I say it's survival of the fittest though, so if they fold for their bad choices that's just how it goes.
Manchu; I don't disagree with the sentiment that seeking to bankrupt or otherwise shutter the doors of Palladium is to assume a great deal about all 5,342 backers, but also thousands of fans of their products around the world.
However, the stance that we should act to warn others away (factually, of course) would be to deny them funding and support as our main (and cost effective) means of showing our disdain for being treated poorly.
If successful, the outcome of this would be... them continuing to flounder and perhaps one day going bankrupt and shuttering their doors. Just over a longer timeframe and based on many little cuts to their support and funding.
From a stance of wishing them to thrive, and have the resources to complete wave 2 (and their other projects, outstanding and new alike), wouldn't the wisest course be to recommend glowing support and downplaying negative aspects, to bring in as many people and as much money as possible, in the hopes that they might one day get around to dedicating the resources necessary to complete said products?
Obviously this isn't going to happen, I'm just trying to reason out how you're suggesting anything other than the same eventual end result over a longer timeline and with fewer people ever seeing a measure of closure to this ~45 month running gag.
Yes, some people seek 'revenge' or perhaps a more thinly veiled 'not wishing them to be able to rip others off again', but unless they provide substantial evidence of progress, I think it's a hard sell that they're doing anything but running out the clock.
Every year that passes is another closer to retirement (few of the PB staff are young men/women, and their playerbase isn't exactly youthful best I can tell from Open House pics), it's that many fewer backers who even remember participating in this gakshow.
Which, to come back around to the recent tragedy, is part of what makes it so weird and unfortunate that they chose to send this news out as an Update. It attracted a great deal more attention, much (most?) of it negative. Like Carmen's ill fated attempt to engage the community, it has proven actively counterproductive.
Honestly I too would rather like for them to just produce what they owe the backers. Between my friends and I, between pro-rated remainders of 8 Battle Cry tiers and another $220 or so in add ons, it's somewhere around half a grand US in material. But I don't think they'll ever provide it, and their ongoing silence regarding progress leads me feeling less charitable as to what I might or might not have a vested interest in.
A couple of sprue breakdowns or prototypes per quarter would have gone a long way towards ablating much of the ire that now exists based on their choice of communication strategy, and this recent mess is at least in part tied to that.
3.5 years later, the few remaining active members of the comments section of a floundering KS that shows negligible concern for its backers are generally not very well disposed towards said company and those associated with them. :-P
To be clear, I'm not trying to be condescending here. Just a mix of inquiry and mulling things over aloud, as it were.
From a stance of wishing them to thrive, and have the resources to complete wave 2 (and their other projects, outstanding and new alike), wouldn't the wisest course be to recommend glowing support and downplaying negative aspects, to bring in as many people and as much money as possible, in the hopes that they might one day get around to dedicating the resources necessary to complete said products?
Yup. You're basically suggesting a pump-and-dump for the sake of pulling funding from a future project to pay for a past one. Kind of like the whole Northern Gun thing.
Personally, I have no desire to screw a future group of gamers for the sake of getting Simbieda more money so that I can get what I'm owed. I have zero desire to be complicit in any Simbieda shenanigans.
Manchu wrote: Keep in mind that what Singh actually accomplished was bankrupting Hanfree and Seth Quest. He didn't get his backer reward. Filing a lawsuit would only further delay any actual progress on RRT, up to indefinitely.
The article I linked said that Quest had credit card and other debts as well, and these other debts did him in. Singh's was the proverbial straw on the camel's back, and he wasn't going to see the product, regardless.
Do you really think you'll get anymore RRT? The money's long gone, Kevin's blaming everyone but himself, and has anyone here said they received RRT product recently?
I've been following the Prodos / Archon Aliens vs. Predator thread, and, at least there, *some* backers said they received product. Palladium releases a book only 20 years late every once in awhile, but that's all the progress I've read about.
Posters here keep calling Palladium's updates non-updates. That doesn't sound like progress to me. You're not going to get your stuff.
EDIT: Whoops! Forgot about the RIFTS IP. Clearly, that has value, and the Savage Worlds RIFTS KS has shown that, in the hands of a competent company, you *can* have a RIFTS product. Now, what Palladium actually does with this income, I'd like to see. So far, i haven't read any mention of it going towards RRT.
I agree with what others have said here - not acting against PB is just going to have us all watch it slowly waste away to nothing; we simply are not going to ever see Wave 2.
The money has been spent, and there's no project PB could put together now that would ever pay for that project AND Wave 2.
A new company might swoop in and save the IP, but the first thing they would do is find some way to write off the debt for Wave 2, not fulfill it.
Kevin's business practices (or lack thereof) have done him in. He'd had several chances now to try and make things right and he has instead wasted them on doing the opposite. It's long past due - well before even RRT funded - for his company, if not himself, to pay the piper. What happened to Carmen is tragic, but in the end it has no bearing whatsoever in the fact that we've been mislead and strung along and it needs to end.
The topic of RTT/Carmen came up over the weekend with a guy I know that owns a FLGS for decades now and
he said as long as he can remember back that Palladium games has never shipped anything on time.
Just shows that Kevin has always worked on his own schedule no matter what it is..
Maybe if I put it in dramatic terms, it will make sense. Imagine a big red button. If you push it, Palladium goes out of business. Would you push it? Why?
Now imagine that you can't push the button. You have to hire me to do it. And in order to shut down PB I have to push that button every day for an indeterminate number of years and each time I push it you have to pay me 100USD. Plus I can't guarantee that It will actually shut down PB. Still on board?
Maybe you would push the "revenge" button if it was cheap and easy. Maybe you would even be able to rationalize doing so as being about something other than revenge. But if the process is slow, expensive, and uncertain, then it becomes a lot harder to rationalize. And then you have to ask yourself, is revenge really worth that?
Also revenge for what? That part of your backer rewards is extremely late. That you have been lied to. That the guy running the company is insufferable. I get it, I think you have valid complaints. I have the same complaints myself, as a backer. But if you put those complaints on one side of the scales, and PB shutting down on the other side - things just don't balance.
So is speaking honestly about this debacle the same thing as trying to wreck PB's business and get it shut down?
No, not even close. The primary point of spreading the word about PB's mismanagement of RRT is to prevent other gamers from getting ripped off. Secondarily, the point is that the only thing with any chance of getting through to Kevin Siembieda and his cronies is denting PB's bottom line. Please note, I'm not saying this will necessarily get through to them. I'm saying it is the route with the best chance. And if it did get through, then I'd be happy to be able to say, you know PB has massively imrpoved, I completely recommend doing business with them.
But keep in mind, sending a message to Kevin Siembieda is just an incidental possibility. The primary goal of recording and spreading the facts about RRT is so other gamers know what's up with the current state of PB - and they will hopefully take the truth into account when spending their money.
Also revenge for what? That part of your backer rewards is extremely late.
Oh please. Tell me, do you believe that? They are not "extremely late" they are extremely fictional. So much so, that I will sell you what I am owed for 75% off.
Since it's only late, you'd be a fool to pass up such a bargain, right?
Sining wrote: I would pretty much be ok if any calamity of any sort befall Kevin personally or if PB shut down.
This kind of talk is why it's so easy for Kevin to write off the legitimate criticism. "They're just hateful," he says. And he's not entirely wrong.
Merijeek wrote: They are not "extremely late" they are extremely fictional.
In that case, nothing would change if PB went under. Why throw good money after bad? I suspect in your haste to make your point, you totally missed mine: filing law suits against PB is at best a pointless, costly exercise and a petty revenge fantasy at worst.
I'm assuming Carmen is in the hospital, and I doubt Kevin and he had a conversation about updating the RRTKS over the attempt. If that is true, what does Carmen do when he gets out of the hospital and reads all of this?
My analysis of the situation is wave 2 will most likely never happen and since I haven't opened my wave 1 or starter box, I threw everything I have up on ebay to hopefully get something back from a game that I'll likely never play and will likely never get wave 2.
Manchu wrote: To make it credible to the mis-/ill-informed, he does.
He really doesn't. Just look at the recent update. Most of the people backing Kevin don't even know what was said in that argument with Carmen but they're backing him anyway cause 'mean internet trolls'.
Kevin doesn't need any legitimate targets. He just needs to claim there are some
We are talking about Kevin and not Carmen here. I've said nothing against Carmen. Do try not to mix the two Manchu.
Otoh, if Kevin wants to read my comments and commit suicide, I can't say I would be filled with remorse. My only hope would be that for once, he succeeds in doing something in his life.
I'm pointing out that you're posting terrible, hateful things. And that makes it easy for people who read those posts to say, Kevin is right - these guys are just haters.
Yes, those hateful backers who dislike Kevin immensely. I'm sure they don't have any reason to at all. How dare they say bad things about Kevin in a forum that Kevin doesn't go to at all.
I'm not saying I hate Kevin, but if a meteor fell on him or lightning struck him or he committed suicide, I wouldn't be overly upset. I wouldn't go out of my way to perform any of those things; not that I can make meteors fall or lighting strike him and I don't have a death note, but that's the way it is. If Kevin expects backers to want his continue well-being, he may be sorely mistaken
I'm pointing out that people have legitimate reasons to dislike Kevin and to handwave away all legitimate criticisms because quite a few people dislike Kevin is edit: not intelligent since they don't allow me to write slowed. Just because people are afraid of losing the low-information crowd who will think 'people are haters' is not a good enough reason to stop people from expressing their dislike of Kevin or even PB if they want to. The low-information crowd will ALWAYS side with a perceived victim, as in the case of Carmen where they didn't even need to read the exchange between Carmen and the other backers to side with Kevin.
If you were Kickstarter which of the following three views do you think they'll take about the comments section.
There is no vitriol
There is vitriol
There is vitriol, but it's targeted at this other guy, so it's ok.
I'm curious why you would bring up KS because honestly, who cares what KS is going to think. Are they going to somehow force Kevin to come out with wave 2 if there's no vitriol? If there's vitriol, are they somehow going to let Kevin not come out with wave 2; which already seems to be the case. Is KS actually going to have some accountability now?
I should also point out I rarely comment on the KS comments and I didn't even bother arguing with Carmen. I've mostly forgotten about this until Kevin decided to accuse backers of causing Carmen to commit suicide. So, should I censor my dislike of Kevin on a forum he doesn't even come to? Maybe I shouldn't even talk bad about him in real life in case he hears about that too.
Sining wrote: I would pretty much be ok if any calamity of any sort befall Kevin personally or if PB shut down.
This kind of talk is why it's so easy for Kevin to write off the legitimate criticism. "They're just hateful," he says. And he's not entirely wrong.
Merijeek wrote: They are not "extremely late" they are extremely fictional.
In that case, nothing would change if PB went under. Why throw good money after bad? I suspect in your haste to make your point, you totally missed mine: filing law suits against PB is at best a pointless, costly exercise and a petty revenge fantasy at worst.
I'm not someone who is claiming I'm going to file a lawsuit, nor am I claiming a tsunami his heading their way.
To play your game, if Palladium Books goes out of business tomorrow, how does it affect my life? I will get no more or less product from them than I would if they were to stay in business for eternity. For me, the only difference is an embarrassing, thieving gaming company will pass from existence. This isn't Chaosium where someone who gives a damn will come in and toss out the thief in charge. As long as there is a Kevin Simbieda, he will be running Palladium Books.
Joyboozer wrote: Fine, forget Kickstarter, any unrelated third party including fictional characters!
FFS!
So I'm curious. Do you think the exchange between Carmen and the other backers was the cause of him committing suicide? I've read through it and frankly, it was pretty mild. No one asks him to go and die, no one asks him to go do other profanity-involved acts that may be physically impossible.
However, there are also many who didn't read it who immediately believe Kevin, because as I said, most low-information people will inherently believe the victim. There are always going to be such people around. Are you going to placate all of them? And if so, how do you plan to do that?
Sining wrote: I would pretty much be ok if any calamity of any sort befall Kevin personally or if PB shut down.
This kind of talk is why it's so easy for Kevin to write off the legitimate criticism. "They're just hateful," he says. And he's not entirely wrong.
Merijeek wrote: They are not "extremely late" they are extremely fictional.
In that case, nothing would change if PB went under. Why throw good money after bad? I suspect in your haste to make your point, you totally missed mine: filing law suits against PB is at best a pointless, costly exercise and a petty revenge fantasy at worst.
I'm not someone who is claiming I'm going to file a lawsuit, nor am I claiming a tsunami his heading their way.
To play your game, if Palladium Books goes out of business tomorrow, how does it affect my life? I will get no more or less product from them than I would if they were to stay in business for eternity. For me, the only difference is an embarrassing, thieving gaming company will pass from existence. This isn't Chaosium where someone who gives a damn will come in and toss out the thief in charge. As long as there is a Kevin Simbieda, he will be running Palladium Books.
I have a friend who may actually be very interested in getting the RIFTS IP from KS. So if PB goes out of business, I think he will go for it. AFAIK, he's already sent one letter to KS expressing his interest but got rejected.
No Sining, I don't, I was there and posting, he was worked up before he posted. That's the problem, he was so convinced it would be bad, it didn't matter what anyone said.
Now, answer my question from before? Do you see the problem?
Huh? What I actually suggested was being frank that Siembieda has mismanaged RRT ... and leaving off the self-discrediting "I don't care if he dies" nonsense.
Merijeek wrote: As long as there is a Kevin Simbieda, he will be running Palladium Books.
But so what. As long as he mismanages PB it will continue to be a dwindle into irrelevance - well, so long as people who he's ripped off bother to warn others from also getting ripped off. Unless of course the legitimate criticism is drowned out by "clever" comments about tsunamis and meteors.
Joyboozer wrote: No Sining, I don't, I was there and posting, he was worked up before he posted. That's the problem, he was so convinced it would be bad, it didn't matter what anyone said.
Now, answer my question from before? Do you see the problem?
What question? About how the KS comments would look to 3rd party people? I mean, you can't convince everyone to be on your side. You were there, posting with Carmen. You know what was said. There are people who don't even know what was said but will automatically blame you anyway as part of the problem cause of your exchange with Carmen.
Is there vitriol? Probably, since I haven't been to the KS comments in like a long time. Otoh, as someone else said in another thread, it's been 4 plus years since this KS and wave 2 has no indication of ever coming out or even coming out. So is the fact there's vitriol even surprising? Is the fact that people dislike Kevin even surprising?
But otoh, there are always going to be people who judge things without knowing the facts, just like people judging you for driving Carmen to suicide without reading the exchange. What are you going to do about that? What can you do about that? Don't argue with people from PB next time in case they try to commit suicide?
Sining, you've won me over. No more calm rational complaints on this kickstarters mishandling from this guy starting, now.
I'm one of the eat a dick guys, and I'm here to tell all the other members of the eat a dick club, that that KS dude eats dicks, so they can also join me in proclaiming that KS dude eats dicks and we can get the word out that that KS guy eats dicks.
I'll happily pay a dollar on some other dudes Kickstarter to tell people he's a dick eater by association! Because it's vitally important everyone be warned, and nothing works better than aggressive name calling. Eat a dick KS!
You can call it an udder all you want KS, but I know it's a bag of Dicks!
Joyboozer wrote: Sining, you've won me over. No more calm rational complaints on this kickstarters mishandling from this guy starting, now.
I'm one of the eat a dick guys, and I'm here to tell all the other members of the eat a dick club, that that KS dude eats dicks, so they can also join me in proclaiming that KS dude eats dicks and we can get the word out that that KS guy eats dicks.
I'll happily pay a dollar on some other dudes Kickstarter to tell people he's a dick eater by association! Because it's vitally important everyone be warned, and nothing works better than aggressive name calling. Eat a dick KS!
You can call it an udder all you want KS, but I know it's a bag of Dicks!
Sarcasm! I hope this isn't necessary!
I mean, you can say what you want, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore legitimate criticism just cause you tell Kevin to eat a dick right? I'm also not going to believe Kevin when he says 'Wave 2 isn't coming' cause you told him to eat a dick. I'm sure some low-information people might, but again, how are you going to convince them otherwise?
That makes no sense. I wasn't even trying to give criticism of the KS when I talked about Kevin. Unless you're saying me not caring if Kevin died or not was a criticism of the RRTKS. Did that sound like criticism of the RRTKS to you? Did you expect 3rd party people to take that as legitimate criticism of the RRTKS?
I think you're mistaking the part where people have legitimate criticisms of the KS and people venting about about Kevin. The two are pretty separate and despite the arguments that the latter invalidates the former, that's not 100% true.
Oh no, better go over there and quell those haters too. Otherwise Kevin might have even more of an excuse not to deliver wave 2. Maybe if NMI can just delete all those posts like he does at the PB forums
I found the 4chan thread, Palladium Games can Kill?. Too lazy for a screenshot, so here's the first page.
Palladium Games can Kill? Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)22:54:00 No.51798553 [Reply]▶>>51798632 >>51798655 >>51799048 >>51799387 >>51800770 >>51802343 >>51802451 >>51803244 >>51804164
So for the dozen or so people that still play Palladium Games (Rifts etc) and/or Robotech RPG Tactics, Carmen Bellaire tried to alpha-male the RRT comments section and got pretty roasted and bailed from the fire claiming health issues. RRT kickstarter backers all recieved the following update from Uncle Kevin himself about 20 minutes ago. Thoughts?
+Showing all replies.
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:02:51 No.51798632 ▶>>51798787 >>51818486
>>51798553 (OP)
Honestly in terms of gak that goes down in trolling Carmen wasn't roasted that bad. He got told to feth off and had threats of $1 troll pledges on his Rifts boardgame kickscammer for threatening to hinder RRT Wave 2.
I think the dude has Bipolar, had a Manic Episode when he got all aggressive on the RRT backers, then went full depression when he came down which was aggravated by his previous aggression met with aggression.
Ultimately his blood is on Uncle Kevin's hands.
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:05:58 No.51798655 ▶>>51798793
File: we need to talk about kev(...).jpg (481 KB, 1209x769)
481 KB >>51798553 (OP)
Getting involved with Kev personally would damage even the most stable psyche
Feel sorry for the guy but man, it's not like he wouldn't have been warned
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:21:45 No.51798787 ▶>>51798822
>>51798632
Yeah, in general I'd agree. But given how much Palladium's own website, FB group, etc tries to insulate itself from recieving actual criticism, this apparently came across as a rude awakening.
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:22:49 No.51798793 ▶
>>51798655
I don't even feel slightly sorry for him.
He was gaking it up big time in the middle of a crowd of already extremely pissed off RRT backers who've waited years while Kev pissed away their money.
That gak was a hornet's nest in an alligator pit and he stuck his dick in it.
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:25:58 No.51798822 ▶>>51798916
>>51798787
Didn't take me long to figure it out and my last info about Palladium was back in 2006. That kickscammer page is full of comments from people who want to kill a man, and don't seem to care which man.
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Anonymous 02/18/17(Sat)23:35:43 No.51798916 ▶>>51804194
>>51798822
I am reading though the comments that led up to this and they are pretty fething mild.
Anonymous 02/19/17(Sun)15:29:05 No.51808410 ▶>>51808549 >>51808944 >>51809100 >>51809334 >>51810176 >>51813107
Today is your daily reminder that 4chan is filled with massive troll donkey-caves.
I don't give a flying feth what people think of Kevin.
Someone tried to kill themselves. It's not a funny joke at that point, you autistic fuckwits.
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Anonymous 02/19/17(Sun)15:38:40 No.51808549 ▶
>>51808410
Thanks for the bump NMI. If you can't take the heat, go back to the Hugbox of the Megaverse.
Anonymous 02/20/17(Mon)07:28:10 No.51817854 ▶>>51817940 >>51817948 >>51818114 >>51818171 >>51818253 >>51818942 >>51819378 >>51831127
Holy feth you people are psychotic.
Someone tries to kill themselves:
>"LOL GO BACK TO YOUR HUGBOX"
Can you even for one second of your life understand that harassing someone and trying to ruin their lives isn't fething funny?
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Anonymous 02/20/17(Mon)07:30:55 No.51817891 ▶
My, no NMI coming back on here? Must be hitting the delete post button like a trooper in the Nazi forum
Anonymous 02/20/17(Mon)07:52:26 No.51818113 ▶>>51818258 >>51819266 >>51828437
Carmen obviously already had serious issues if some comments on the Robotech Tactics KS page were enough to push him over the edge to attempt to kill himself.
That being said it is hard to understand how much people hold something important. By Carmens own admission he got his wife's permission (yes he is one of those guys) to take his profits from his work at upper deck and sink them into a Rifts board game licenses.
I wish him a full recovery. I also want the Rifts board game to get made.
The reality is Palladium and Kevin are broke, in debt and have been for years. A bankruptcy wont get backers thier money back.
I've written for Palladium as a freelancer. It took me 6 weeks of pestering then to get my measly $400 check.
My theory is that Every new release from Palladium is just enough to make pay roll, rent and keep the lights on. Pay the bare minimum to creditors and the printer. Kevin holds out hope a Palladium IP will hit it big time with a licensing deal. Thats really his only hope as his antics (he has been doing this unprofessional gak since the 1980s) and dated products are alienating long time fans and keeping out new comers.
Kevin will sell more of his "collectibles" he squandered the fortune TMNT, Rifts and Robotech VHS tapes made him back in the 1990s. Keep hoping for a big licensing pay day and keep pumping out Rifts books to squeek by. Keep snowing fans as best as he is able and blaming everyone but himself.
I increasingly feel numb over the whole thing.
Kevin is happy because he is getting attention again, good or bad it is all good.
PB has our money from the RRTKS and I am 98% certain we will not see the rewards owed from PB.
Carmen gave Kevin money for licensing for Rifts and I will have to assume it was no small sum.
How many people does this guy have to rip off till people stop making excuses for him?
He is not getting any more of my money ever.
I am happy to explain the history of his company and their practices over and over so that people can spend it somewhere better and PB is one day closer to no longer doing harm.
I like you folk, we have a similar like for the IP, we are under no obligation to like the company who provides the "toys" (I feel that with Games Workshop on occasion).
I have a large box of 3D printed stuff I got this morning that reminds me I am trying to put myself in a happier place so I can move-on at least emotionally.
It allows me to be more honest with myself and to be sure I am not largely doing my bit out of petty revenge.
Maybe the ban on me for KS was a good thing.
Maybe I would have said something I would have regretted?
I think I have been comfortable with what I have said so-far.
I do agree that the few who resort to wishing harm lack a serious amount of perspective.
Name calling will happen usually stemming from frustration.
To be strung along for so many years without closure is so incredibly maddening.
Kevin will always find some excuse, as pointed out making it easy for him is not helpful.
We all will have to find our emotional distance in order to be constructive, I really do not want to sit back and let Kevin scam more people but I also think he deserves zero attention: he is all about the attention.
It is so irritating that Carmen's issue is getting so buried under all this bull so much of his personal information has been divulged: so much about him is none of our business.
Yes. I read the entire damn thing. I've read everything on PB forums. What's your point?
Because I've gone over it a few times (my own comment and those of others), and while obviously he took things to heart in a hard way, that wasn't a fraction as ugly as "Spartangate" was, or the pre-Gencon 'vote', or any number of controversies.
You're making it sound like he was dogpiled by dozens of people hurling horrific invective.
No, I'm saying people handled it poorly. Ask yourself this: what was there to be gained by any of it? Like seriously...even if you feel the level of angst wasn't dialed to an 11...maybe an 8...it still doesn't change the fact that people were scalping the wrong guy.
Other than a heated exchange with Jay D, and a little snark from a few others (yes, myself included) based on his insultingly aggressive opening statements, let's try to keep perspective that while this exchange may have been the final straw for him, we had nothing to do with the leadup to that, nor any way of knowing that he was in a fragile state of mind.
He picked the fight, and I'm sorry that it went fething sideways as it did, but a little perspective and context are necessary as well.
You're right he did pick a fight...and I said already that really..what response did he think he'd get by entering the viper pit? He also chose to handle his business poorly in that regard. He should have left well enough alone. However, so should have everyone else. Is it really worth a feth to pick a fight with this guy? And why? What's the end game? Self aggrandizement? At the end of the day...nothing good would have come from it.
Edit: yes, some people have had an... impressively narrow focus on "Sorry about Carmen, ps where is Wave Two?" in the comments. That certainly can come across as crass and crude. I think it's an extension of the general disdain people have for Kevin's attempt to paint the entire backer base in a negative light with this latest tragedy, and are responding with a figurative 'flip him the bird' for how little they accept the guilt and blame he's trying to lay upon them.
Kevin is an idiot for even airing the dirty laundry of Carmen's health. Nothing needed to be said. He should have kept his mouth shut. It's not anyone's business especially the publics. It's a private matter for no one to be privy to.
To an outsider it's probably kinda gross. Some people probably are being kinda gross. But again, in a project with over 5,000 backers, painting us ALL in any light based on the actions or words of a couple (or a couple dozen) when we have little or no control over the community is, as I noted above, just attempting to use this situation/controversy/tragedy to ones own end. Which is in itself inappropriate. Bluntly put, coming in on a high horse and yelling YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK in one fashion or another to show off how disappointed you are is just virtue signaling by another form.
Outsider? I've been here since the beginning, but unlike the rest...saying where's wave 2 and posting about how much I loathe Kevin and his business practices can only be said and stated so many times before it gets completely vapid. This isn't me coming in on my "high horse"...it's me putting 270+ pages of the same crap into perspective. 270+ pages of the same things being said repeatedly. If this event shows anything...it should show everyone that it's time to move the F on...in whatever manner that suits people.
And none of us here are 'outsiders'. We should know most of this history by now, so take your outrage and direct it towards where it belongs.
I'm not outraged at anyone. That's your opinion. I'll return to lurking now as posting in this thread is largely pointless now. Good day sir.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Well this where I part company with a lot of you - I'd like to see PB not only survive but also thrive, for the sake of the people who like Rifts, etc. ... and of course because I'd love to see more RRT stuff. But PB will never thrive as long as Kevin can profit from abusive business practices. So I see the right thing for backers to do is pass on the truth of how poorly managed RRT has been and that Kevin has shown no real progress on turning that around. As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.
If NMI tries to kill himself over meanness over at 4chan is it only 4chan posters who get the blame, or will we be blamed, too? Or do we just wait for Simbieda to inform us that we're to blame?
Yes. I read the entire damn thing. I've read everything on PB forums. What's your point?
Because I've gone over it a few times (my own comment and those of others), and while obviously he took things to heart in a hard way, that wasn't a fraction as ugly as "Spartangate" was, or the pre-Gencon 'vote', or any number of controversies.
You're making it sound like he was dogpiled by dozens of people hurling horrific invective.
No, I'm saying people handled it poorly. Ask yourself this: what was there to be gained by any of it? Like seriously...even if you feel the level of angst wasn't dialed to an 11...maybe an 8...it still doesn't change the fact that people were scalping the wrong guy.
Other than a heated exchange with Jay D, and a little snark from a few others (yes, myself included) based on his insultingly aggressive opening statements, let's try to keep perspective that while this exchange may have been the final straw for him, we had nothing to do with the leadup to that, nor any way of knowing that he was in a fragile state of mind.
He picked the fight, and I'm sorry that it went fething sideways as it did, but a little perspective and context are necessary as well.
You're right he did pick a fight...and I said already that really..what response did he think he'd get by entering the viper pit? He also chose to handle his business poorly in that regard. He should have left well enough alone. However, so should have everyone else. Is it really worth a feth to pick a fight with this guy? And why? What's the end game? Self aggrandizement? At the end of the day...nothing good would have come from it.
Edit: yes, some people have had an... impressively narrow focus on "Sorry about Carmen, ps where is Wave Two?" in the comments. That certainly can come across as crass and crude. I think it's an extension of the general disdain people have for Kevin's attempt to paint the entire backer base in a negative light with this latest tragedy, and are responding with a figurative 'flip him the bird' for how little they accept the guilt and blame he's trying to lay upon them.
Kevin is an idiot for even airing the dirty laundry of Carmen's health. Nothing needed to be said. He should have kept his mouth shut. It's not anyone's business especially the publics. It's a private matter for no one to be privy to.
To an outsider it's probably kinda gross. Some people probably are being kinda gross. But again, in a project with over 5,000 backers, painting us ALL in any light based on the actions or words of a couple (or a couple dozen) when we have little or no control over the community is, as I noted above, just attempting to use this situation/controversy/tragedy to ones own end. Which is in itself inappropriate. Bluntly put, coming in on a high horse and yelling YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK in one fashion or another to show off how disappointed you are is just virtue signaling by another form.
Outsider? I've been here since the beginning, but unlike the rest...saying where's wave 2 and posting about how much I loathe Kevin and his business practices can only be said and stated so many times before it gets completely vapid. This isn't me coming in on my "high horse"...it's me putting 270+ pages of the same crap into perspective. 270+ pages of the same things being said repeatedly. If this event shows anything...it should show everyone that it's time to move the F on...in whatever manner that suits people.
And none of us here are 'outsiders'. We should know most of this history by now, so take your outrage and direct it towards where it belongs.
I'm not outraged at anyone. That's your opinion. I'll return to lurking now as posting in this thread is largely pointless now. Good day sir.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Well this where I part company with a lot of you - I'd like to see PB not only survive but also thrive, for the sake of the people who like Rifts, etc. ... and of course because I'd love to see more RRT stuff. But PB will never thrive as long as Kevin can profit from abusive business practices. So I see the right thing for backers to do is pass on the truth of how poorly managed RRT has been and that Kevin has shown no real progress on turning that around. As long as that is the case, people should be put on notice to steer clear of PB. But I am ready to give credit where it's due should we see some real progress.
Agreed.
so tell me how can people move on when we have unfinished business? seriously? how? people gave Palladium Books money on a promise, a promise that has been broken, then those same people told Carmen they would never back any Palladium Books Property and warn people away from any Palladium Books property, those same people said the same thing about the Savage Worlds Kickstarter, heck some even said worse to Peg on their forums, and lets see did any of them try to commit suicide? ummmm no. were the backers even remotely responsible for Carmen's attempt? highly doubtful, now my theory is that Carmen had a fragile mentality and you couple that with all his money being sunk into the Rift's boardgame and then him realizing his game was already dead, not because of anything he did, but because of his good buddy Kevin, I told him he should have made his own IP/Property and cut far far far away from Kevin, but he made his bed and now he has to sleep in it.
what it comes down to is the only one who can be blamed is Kevin, and how do you think Carmen will react after seeing Kevin's update?
Manchu wrote: Well 75USD shipped for the core set is the price to beat.
EDIT: scratch that, it's actually 66USD shipped
I picked up 2 Box games for $20 Total.
*sigh* This has come up a few times now.
Okay, fine, I'll bite.
Why?
You made a big deal of selling off your figures, proclaiming yourself 'done with this game'.
People could offer boxes for free and I still wouldn't want them. Unless you're planning to spend time building/painting them for further sales (which would be weird for someone so often proclaiming the game 'dead' and the product without value), or regret selling off the originals, more of something I don't want is just wasted space.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Karuthors, it would help if you didn't 'fisk' a post into a dozen little pieces, especially when it leads to you asking questions about one part that are answered in the next.
I have trimmed sections that we generally agree upon, such as Kevin's 'update' being a terrible idea.
Yes. I read the entire damn thing. I've read everything on PB forums. What's your point?
I'm saying people handled it poorly. Ask yourself this: what was there to be gained by any of it? Like seriously...even if you feel the level of angst wasn't dialed to an 11...maybe an 8...it still doesn't change the fact that people were scalping the wrong guy.
That wasn't your initial quote. You said "Now, that being said...the level of rage lobbed in his direction was really childish and petty"
I'm contending that nobody was 'lobbing rage' at him. You are overstating the exchange. People said some unkind things, but that was hardly 'rage'. And people were clear about why they felt the way they did, on the PB Forums (when Jefffar and NMI weren't busy deleting posts, even politely worded ones), here, and yes on Kickstarter. Bluntly, ONE BACKER was rather blunt and abrupt with him, and a couple others (again, I might be included in this category) were dismissive and further blunt with him on the matter, to varying levels of constructiveness. Your statements (like those of Kevin) have an air of broadly generalizing the engagement, which happened over a few hours between Carmen and somewhere around a dozen people. Literally ~99.7% or so of the backers had nothing to do with this gakshow.
Outsider? I've been here since the beginning, but unlike the rest...saying where's wave 2 and posting about how much I loathe Kevin and his business practices can only be said and stated so many times before it gets completely vapid. This isn't me coming in on my "high horse"...it's me putting 270+ pages of the same crap into perspective. 270+ pages of the same things being said repeatedly. If this event shows anything...it should show everyone that it's time to move the F on...in whatever manner that suits people.
You see this next part here;
And none of us here are 'outsiders'. We should know most of this history by now, so take your outrage and direct it towards where it belongs.
This is what I was talking about at the start. You're here, I said the people who are here aren't outsiders and thus know better, thus, you're not an outsider.
I'm not outraged at anyone. That's your opinion. I'll return to lurking now as posting in this thread is largely pointless now. Good day sir.
Please enjoy your ball as you take it and go home.
Yeah, I assume I will not see many people wanting to play this game.
I look at getting it to a point where it is a "complete" game.
I usually do not like to depend on a player to provide the other half of a game unless they really want to.
I agree at some point it may appear more work than it is worth to the individual. Or the person is so upset about the entire project it is sullied beyond use.
It just seems like a waste to sell off stuff then buy back later... or is it just simple economics of sell high, buy low?
Manchu wrote: Well 75USD shipped for the core set is the price to beat.
EDIT: scratch that, it's actually 66USD shipped
I picked up 2 Box games for $20 Total.
*sigh* This has come up a few times now.
Okay, fine, I'll bite.
Why?
You made a big deal of selling off your figures, proclaiming yourself 'done with this game'.
People could offer boxes for free and I still wouldn't want them. Unless you're planning to spend time building/painting them for further sales (which would be weird for someone so often proclaiming the game 'dead' and the product without value), or regret selling off the originals, more of something I don't want is just wasted space.
well kept hearing about people who said they have the game collecting dust in their closet and now I can say that too
Read through about half of that link.
A few pretty good observations in there.
Many comments were crude and some referencing NMI were painful... but a good cross-section of viewpoints with very little... filter.
Yeah, finished while writing this... last quarter pretty much degrades down to useless nastiness.
I am REALLY looking forward to working on some Robotech stuff that has little to do with Palladium... best of both worlds.
Read through about half of that link.
A few pretty good observations in there.
Many comments were crude and some referencing NMI were painful... but a good cross-section of viewpoints with very little... filter.
Yeah, finished while writing this... last quarter pretty much degrades down to useless nastiness.
I am REALLY looking forward to working on some Robotech stuff that has little to do with Palladium... best of both worlds.
I didn't even get that far reading thru those posts, hell I thought the kickstarter forums could get bad :p
Manchu wrote: Well 75USD shipped for the core set is the price to beat.
EDIT: scratch that, it's actually 66USD shipped
I picked up 2 Box games for $20 Total.
I'm in on the KS for $255 (I think). If I got $100 on ebay for the starter box and my wave 1 stuff, I'd be happy. Currently sitting at $66. I was hoping to beat the wave of people dumping their stuff based on the craziness of the KS updates.
I feel kind of bad now, I dumped my pledge almost as soon as I got it (still didn't make back all my money though). But I promised the guy I sold it to I'd send him the Wave 2 stuff when I got it.
Many comments were crude and some referencing NMI were painful... but a good cross-section of viewpoints with very little... filter.
Yeah, finished while writing this... last quarter pretty much degrades down to useless nastiness.
That's 4chan for you, the original Donkeycave of the Internet. Sounds like a pretty civil discussion for there.
I have a long history with quality control, there is a process used for corrective actions called "5Ys" five whys.
You list your problem then ask why and continue to do that for at least five times.
If you do this with the whole RTT problem, it always lands in Kevin's lap, but his tombstone will read " Robotech tactics demise was not my fault "
Manchu wrote: Well 75USD shipped for the core set is the price to beat.
EDIT: scratch that, it's actually 66USD shipped
I picked up 2 Box games for $20 Total.
I'm in on the KS for $255 (I think). If I got $100 on ebay for the starter box and my wave 1 stuff, I'd be happy. Currently sitting at $66. I was hoping to beat the wave of people dumping their stuff based on the craziness of the KS updates.
I ended up making a pretty penny for my stuff, but then it was assembled and painted which is a big selling point when it comes to RRT, well the assembled part that is, even had someone want to pay me to assemble and paint their stuff, like my stuff he got from me.
Manchu wrote: Well 75USD shipped for the core set is the price to beat.
EDIT: scratch that, it's actually 66USD shipped
I picked up 2 Box games for $20 Total.
I'm in on the KS for $255 (I think). If I got $100 on ebay for the starter box and my wave 1 stuff, I'd be happy. Currently sitting at $66. I was hoping to beat the wave of people dumping their stuff based on the craziness of the KS updates.
I ended up making a pretty penny for my stuff, but then it was assembled and painted which is a big selling point when it comes to RRT, well the assembled part that is, even had someone want to pay me to assemble and paint their stuff, like my stuff he got from me.
It doesn't matter how many times you post this, I can't believe it - ever!
I found the link to the Palladium forum for the RIFTS boardgame. I think Carmen said he requested that the forum not be moderated, so there *are* negative comments that foreshadowed those after he posted on KS. I also think had Carmen not be defensive-slash-offensive on the KS comments and behaved more like he did on the Palladium forums (or just not posted there at all), he would have had a chance. Given that Prodos' LOAD made $200K despite BGG and Dakka postings, RIFTS boardgame could have pulled in money from Palladium and RIFT supporters, either on KS or through retail, who, if they haven't stopped supporting Palladium (there's even one on that 4chan thread) now, probably won't stop supporting them with anything else RRT backers had to say. He describes the boardgame as being similar to Descent and Imperial Assault (mistakenly calling it "Dudes on a Map"), so the boardgame could be sold as an RPG supplement with miniatures and a 28mm grid. Given his lack of business credentials and his association with Palladium, I think had he started small, say, a pre-order through the Palladium website for a hundred copies with metal miniatures and tokens, he might have had a place to start. Heck, assuming he recovers, he still has it.
Aside from that wishful speculation, Prysus has some general advice (imo, his specific suggestion of a Facebook page later in his posting isn't enough) for the KS route. I think his expectations that he could publish a RIFTS boardgame that way are impossible without credentials he does not yet have, although I've been proven wrong. Who else backed Groovus' project?
With that out of the way, I will address the actual reason I'm posting here. I'm going to be a bit more critical, and I'll bring up both RTT and Savage Rifts (but these will only be used to address your company and comparisons). As we can see, many people won't support this Kickstarter. RTT has left a bad test in many people's mouths. With that said, many people still participated in the Savage Rifts Kickstarter and, if I recall correctly, it did better than any other Savage Worlds Kickstarter before to the point they had to keep making changes to how they did things to accommodate. But RTT will continue to be an obstacle, and you'll need to work around it. So how do you do that?
You need to establish yourself as an independent company. I know, you've said here how you have a small company, and how Palladium's advertisement is free, and how you wanted to talk to Rifts fans before setting up a Facebook page. I get it, but in my opinion this is a bad move (at least in part). Why? Right now there's a rumor going around that you're nothing but a shell company for Palladium, a way for them to keep officially hands off while this really all still them. I know you're going to say that's not true, but you're not trying to convince me and words don't always mean much. You want proof, and right now you don't seem to have any. Kevin is doing your advertising, your discussing it only on their forums (from what I can tell), and people who search for your company find NOTHING. You're a friend of Palladium and everything we know about your company has basically come from Palladium. Until you can give yourself some distance, you will be effectively viewed AS PALLADIUM.
Let's look at Savage Rifts. Savage Worlds was an established company with a good track record. That helped people to look passed the RTT issues. You don't have that luxury. Sean Patrick Fannon (did I spell and get that name right?) posted on these forums a few times during the collaboration, but in the end he directed people to the Savage Worlds forums for more discussion. That allowed them to direct people to them for questions and answers, and as such helped create further separation.
ced1106 wrote: I found the link to the Palladium forum for the RIFTS boardgame. I think Carmen said he requested that the forum not be moderated, so there *are* negative comments that foreshadowed those after he posted on KS. I also think had Carmen not be defensive-slash-offensive on the KS comments and behaved more like he did on the Palladium forums (or just not posted there at all), he would have had a chance. Given that Prodos' LOAD made $200K despite BGG and Dakka postings, RIFTS boardgame could have pulled in money from Palladium and RIFT supporters, either on KS or through retail, who, if they haven't stopped supporting Palladium (there's even one on that 4chan thread) now, probably won't stop supporting them with anything else RRT backers had to say. He describes the boardgame as being similar to Descent and Imperial Assault (mistakenly calling it "Dudes on a Map"), so the boardgame could be sold as an RPG supplement with miniatures and a 28mm grid. Given his lack of business credentials and his association with Palladium, I think had he started small, say, a pre-order through the Palladium website for a hundred copies with metal miniatures and tokens, he might have had a place to start. Heck, assuming he recovers, he still has it.
Aside from that wishful speculation, Prysus has some general advice (imo, his specific suggestion of a Facebook page later in his posting isn't enough) for the KS route. I think publishing a retail-level RIFTS boardgame is next to impossible, but nobody owes you your dream.
You might miss it if context/posts aren't present to point it out, but while Carmen requested the subforum not be moderated, that request came after people started noticing posts being deleted without warning or explanation.
Not even offensive posts mind you, but one that essentially came down to "best of luck with the Kickstarter, but I can't in good conscience back anything even tangentially related to Palladium Books".
If you look at the 'votes' in the poll, you can see a substantial number of people who express disinterest, and none of the commentary even reached the (fairly tame) level found on the KS comments.
/tg/ stands for tabletop gaming and it has pretty good content if you pick through the garbage
This. Sometimes tg comes up with some brilliant out of the box ideas for players or campaigns. Most times though it seems to be a feth you contest. And of course this is where the palladium defenders have gone to stir gak up.
And maybe avoid /b. The random seems to mean random kinds of porn, although there is other stuff.
There's also 7chan.org/tg and 8ch.net/tg. But discussing other forums can get you banned. Mind you sometimes you can get banned without any idea why.
Genoside07 wrote: I have a long history with quality control, there is a process used for corrective actions called "5Ys" five whys.
You list your problem then ask why and continue to do that for at least five times.
Ha! Brother! I believe "5 Whys" keeps going until the answer is "Because we are stupid." then go back one (no word of a lie that is how we used it).
If only PB could delve that honestly.
Given that Kevin shared the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt on as an official Kickstarter Update to ALL of the RRT backers, I think that is the most appropriate place for any condolences to be posted.
Forar wrote: All this plus Mr. Dachi showing up in the comments, we've practically got the band back together at this point.
"We're on a mission from God."
I read this thread everyday Forar. It's just that I feel like I just don't have anything to say anymore. Hell, I see boxes of RRT on shelves at home and at work that don't get played/don't get sold everyday. I still want/hope to get my Wave 2 items so I still keep up.
However, I thought I had seen all the surprises this had in it. If I hadn't read the update where Kevin informed us of Carmen's status myself, I would not have believed it. It's an extinction level event sized asteroid of delicious, buttery popcorn.
So last I read someone had reported the RRTKS to the Kickstarter Integrity team, got a form email saying they're checking it out, etc.
Apparently the integrity team at least read the comments because I'm the recipient of a 7 day ban on commenting/messaging. I'm guessing it's for suggesting one of the fan friends prefers a particular sex act with Kevin.
But hey, it's proof someone official is at least reading this stuff. Hopefully this has become just the sort of disaster to spur people to step in.
ScarletRose wrote: So last I read someone had reported the RRTKS to the Kickstarter Integrity team, got a form email saying they're checking it out, etc.
Apparently the integrity team at least read the comments because I'm the recipient of a 7 day ban on commenting/messaging. I'm guessing it's for suggesting one of the fan friends prefers a particular sex act with Kevin.
But hey, it's proof someone official is at least reading this stuff. Hopefully this has become just the sort of disaster to spur people to step in.
Maybe KS should use that integrity team to force Kevin to produce wave 2 as well instead of just banning consumers.
The integrity team would be powerless against him, he is completely devoid of integrity, where his integrity should be there's nothing but a black hole that consumes and destroys the integrity of all those around him.
Joyboozer wrote: The integrity team would be powerless against him, he is completely devoid of integrity, where his integrity should be there's nothing but a black hole that consumes and destroys the integrity of all those around him.
I typed this out over at the gamers on games youtube comments section:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWBkpMvMtm0&feature=youtu.be Then thought it would be better here in this forum.
I copy and pasted most of the comments of the page, while the exchange was occurring, before Kickstarter removed them.
I think its fine if certain backers are perma-banned, based on their comments, but if turnabout is fair play, Palladium Books & Rogue Heroes certainly shouldn't be allowed to put together any further Kickstarters. Backers and Companies alike gave overly heated exchanges.
The comments in regards to trolling Carmen's future project is something (from Kickstarters perspective) I could understand as a big no-no. I think it's a dick move to say your going to troll that (future) project, but when this whole situation has been exceedingly cock-blocked because of "reasons" (& let's not forget *boiling*) or other wise total ineptitude on the part of the publisher/creators (and with no if any end in sight), I certainly understand the frustration.
Other comments were far less reasoned and certainly out of line. But most of those came after Rogue Heroes (had supposedly) signed out. I didn't copy and paste those and there weren't a lot, but they were certainly there.
While the some of the tone and content of the comments are negative I think it is important to put them into perspective. And not to mention a lot of the comments simply equated to "No, I'm not backing the Rifts Board Game," and many added, but "I wish you luck." People (not anyone here though) keep forgetting that a future kickstarter project is being announced/plugged in the comments section of one that hasn't yet fulfilled...
Though it pains me to say it. Kevin is right. Words can Hurt. However, like many who are putting in their own two cents on this topic, that statement by itself lacks context. In fact its down right fuckin' insulting...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"I've written for Palladium as a freelancer. It took me 6 weeks of pestering then to get my measly $400 check."
I just went and saved a copy of the full exchange, in case Kickstarter decides to delete a few comments, which would unfortunately feed the narrative of 'omg the comments were *so bad* and those backers are truly monsters'.
Kind of hard for us to point at the actual exchange and say 'read it for yourself' if some of it is missing.
Right now that's not an issue, but I suspect this will be the kind of thing brought up again and again in the years to come, and the further out we are from it, the less likely people will remember or know the full details.
I started looking in to what some of the blame points are and I think Carmen was brave to allow a unfiltered unmoderated forum.
But most of the people there were actually nice and pointed out the anger of what he may see before and after the kickstarter started..
The comment of people threatening to boycott by trolling his kickstarter rifts comments I think started with this comment..
I wouldn't be surprised if some RTT backers back your board game at $1 just to lob poison comments at PB. That is the reality of what you are looking at.
To me this is not threatening.. that is informing just some of the difficulties he may face. As most people posted trying to direct him with better feedback on the now locked
Rifts board games of Palladium games forums.
But I am also sure Kevin would not listen to anything thing that Carmen was getting warned about which added to his stress.
So this week's copy paste palladium update will say what about RTT??
As it goes I was probably one of the worst posters in the conversation with Carmen, did I wish him ill will? no, I just told him the facts that his game was doomed to failure, in part due to the backers of RRT, but other factors would have played a role in it too, even if his project funded he would have ran into cost over runs from factors he did not factor in since some did not even exist when he did his planning (Like NAFTA and TPP getting kicked to the curb).
I did tell him his best bet would have been too create his own IP and not go with RIFTs or any PB IP, but he made his choices and me thinks he realized his choices were wrong and his investment was lost.
as it goes though there was more ire on the PB forums (and still is) then what was posted in the conversation on the RRT forums.
now what was posted on Kevins update in the RRT forums were some rude and disturbing comments from both sides of the aisle.
Asterios wrote: As it goes I was probably one of the worst posters in the conversation with Carmen, did I wish him ill will? no, I just told him the facts that his game was doomed to failure, in part due to the backers of RRT, but other factors would have played a role in it too, even if his project funded he would have ran into cost over runs from factors he did not factor in since some did not even exist when he did his planning (Like NAFTA and TPP getting kicked to the curb).
Well, to say you knew some things that would doom his project to fail but would not tell him, can be at least wishing him to feel concern.
I think few would have the inside track on what he had considered when going forward with the project, so it is strange to claim knowledge on what can only be conjecture.
I think he was given good advice in the PB forums that the sooner he presents a company well removed from Palladium, the better.
Kevin taking the liberty to be so free with private information seems to indicate he sees no separation either, or at least feel his backing is a "good thing" (the silly man).
The project just seems so irrecoverably ruined by Palladium involvement, if it could have been presented similarly as the Savage Worlds: Rifts KS we may not have been having this discussion.
Oh well, we shall see going forward.
If Kevin thinks his efforts at distraction and using tragedy as a shield had gone unnoticed.... never mind, he was called out plenty on it.
Asterios wrote: As it goes I was probably one of the worst posters in the conversation with Carmen, did I wish him ill will? no, I just told him the facts that his game was doomed to failure, in part due to the backers of RRT, but other factors would have played a role in it too, even if his project funded he would have ran into cost over runs from factors he did not factor in since some did not even exist when he did his planning (Like NAFTA and TPP getting kicked to the curb).
Well, to say you knew some things that would doom his project to fail but would not tell him, can be at least wishing him to feel concern.
I think few would have the inside track on what he had considered when going forward with the project, so it is strange to claim knowledge on what can only be conjecture.
I think he was given good advice in the PB forums that the sooner he presents a company well removed from Palladium, the better.
Kevin taking the liberty to be so free with private information seems to indicate he sees no separation either, or at least feel his backing is a "good thing" (the silly man).
The project just seems so irrecoverably ruined by Palladium involvement, if it could have been presented similarly as the Savage Worlds: Rifts KS we may not have been having this discussion.
Oh well, we shall see going forward.
If Kevin thinks his efforts at distraction and using tragedy as a shield had gone unnoticed.... never mind, he was called out plenty on it.
well that one bit was in response to Carmen's comments(but in all seriousness he did not take many factors into consideration), as it goes he should have done his own IP for his companies foundation, not a PB IP and I even said so.
Asterios wrote: As it goes I was probably one of the worst posters in the conversation with Carmen, did I wish him ill will? no, I just told him the facts that his game was doomed to failure, in part due to the backers of RRT, but other factors would have played a role in it too, even if his project funded he would have ran into cost over runs from factors he did not factor in since some did not even exist when he did his planning (Like NAFTA and TPP getting kicked to the curb).
Well, to say you knew some things that would doom his project to fail but would not tell him, can be at least wishing him to feel concern.
Far be it from me to defend Rick, but that sounds remarkably similar to Rick suggesting that his project would "burn" were Rick to not share that info.
Difference being, Rick presumably isn't about to ask the world at large for money...nor was he saying it to an audience that he and his associates owed product...
Asterios wrote: As it goes I was probably one of the worst posters in the conversation with Carmen, did I wish him ill will? no, I just told him the facts that his game was doomed to failure, in part due to the backers of RRT, but other factors would have played a role in it too, even if his project funded he would have ran into cost over runs from factors he did not factor in since some did not even exist when he did his planning (Like NAFTA and TPP getting kicked to the curb).
Well, to say you knew some things that would doom his project to fail but would not tell him, can be at least wishing him to feel concern.
Far be it from me to defend Rick, but that sounds remarkably similar to Rick suggesting that his project would "burn" were Rick to not share that info.
Difference being, Rick presumably isn't about to ask the world at large for money...nor was he saying it to an audience that he and his associates owed product...
and to be honest i don't even think Carmen paid me or my comments any attention either
Taking a closer look at Kevin's update on Kickstarter from this weekend: (Enclosed in spoiler tags to hide the wall of text)
Spoiler:
Carmen’s awkward words might have seemed out of context and harsh. They were fueled by comments and accusations people had been directing at him here and elsewhere for a while now. Somehow, he thought he was helping by coming here to speak to people directly.
I don’t know why Carmen Bellaire said what he said, in the way that he did. I know he has been pushing himself much too hard, and was emotionally drained and physically exhausted when he made those posts. That might explain some of it. He can also be the proverbial bull in the china shop, and has a bad habit of not choosing his words carefully. A lot of his comments and observations about Robotech® RPG Tactics and Palladium Books were from an outsider’s perspective, and often incorrect or not clearly presented. Carmen’s viewpoint, like many of yours, is that of a concerned outsider looking in.
So Carmen who's credited in the RRT rulebook, has run RRT demos, is a backer and has close ties to Kevin Siembieda is an outsider? Can someone explain how to reach that conclusion based on these facts?
He had not been around Palladium Books much the past 3-4 years, because he was busy creating games for his own fledgling company, Rogue Heroes LLC, which he has hopes to launch in spectacular fashion with the Rifts® Board Game as his first release. This would be done via a Kickstarter campaign in April, 2017. In addition to this endeavor, Carmen works a full-time, 9-5 job, as well as doing freelance game design for Upper Deck. A lot of work for Upper Deck. It is my understanding that the many games he has designed for that company have yet to see release, but they have been keeping him busy and several are in the pipeline for release. Doing board games right takes time. I’ve learned that the hard way. Carmen is also doing work for at least two other game companies under a veil of secrecy. He cannot speak about them or identify the companies due to NDAs and the wishes of those companies. I’m not even sure if I’m supposed to mention Upper Deck. I have been doing so rather shamelessly, because I’m very proud of my friend Carmen, and I figured the folks at Upper Deck will be okay with it coming from me
So in addition to announcing to the world Carmen's suicide attempt, you may have just violated an NDA by revealing one of his employers. Great job Kevin.
Carmen and I have not talked about him “fixing” Wave Two, as he put it. We at Palladium, and many others, believe the RRT rules are solid. That while they could use some clarification, expansion and tweaking, they are really quite excellent and damn fun to play. What Carmen and I have talked about is Carmen’s hope and dream that if the Rifts® Board Game Kickstarter is a big success, he can quit his 9-5 job and dedicate himself exclusively to creating games. It is a lifelong dream I have heard about since the first day I met Carmen 12, 15 years ago. A dream he saw finally becoming a reality. A dream he has put his heart and soul into making come true. So no, Rogue Heroes, LLC is not a front or shell company for Palladium Books, as some have suggested; it is 100% Carmen Bellaire.
His terrible opening post and further discussion about Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Wave Two on the RRT Kickstarter board was fueled by his passion and hopes. If the Rifts® board game was a big success, and he really could quit his 9-5 job, he planned to help Palladium get RRT back on track, doing whatever he could to help. Carmen has all kinds of ideas for advanced RRT rules, new factions and new waves of product that we would love to see happen. But for the moment, he was still buried with other work commitments and needed to stay focused on the Rifts® board game and its Kickstarter.
What does the state of the RRT rules have to do with Wave 2? Advanced rules, new factions and new waves of product are separate items that have no bearing on Wave 2.
Carmen didn’t intend to challenge, threaten or blackmail anyone for support of his impending Rifts® board game Kickstarter. He was, in his own lame and awkward way, trying to say that his success with it would be good for the future of RRT, because he could be more involved and hopefully help make things happen faster in the future. He was trying to say, please don’t undermine his Rifts® Board Game Kickstarter, because his success would actually help RRT in the long run.
I know this is what he meant, because he called me Friday, early afternoon, very upset by the reaction of some people on the RRT boards. He apologized to me over and over again for upsetting people and fueling the vitriol when all he was trying to do was help. Help me. Help his upcoming Kickstarter. Help the fans. Help his family. Help everyone. And doing it by creating a fun Rifts® board game to be followed by many other games from his company, not just based on Palladium’s I.P., but many of his own brilliant ideas.
This is not what Carmen said in his comments at all. It was more 'if you don't mess with my kickstarter, I'll fix RRT. If you do, I'm not going to help fix it.' An empty threat given that most of the vocal commentors consider the problems intractable and consider the game dead already. The anger and toxicity has been there for awhile, Carmen didn't do anything except bring it back into the light. Carmen didn't create it. Kevin Siembieda's constant inept handling of the kickstarter is what fuels the anger
I understand why people are upset about RRT. What I cannot understand is the absolute hate and bloodlust of some, to destroy us, when we are trying to deliver the game they backed. Even more puzzling is attacking and destroying anyone who is affiliated with Palladium even in the slightest way, and shouting down and condemning others who don’t agree with their point of view.
Why don't you go ask your fan-friends/white knights why they attack, shout down and condemn anyone who tries to provide any criticism of Palladium products, constructive or otherwise?
Twisting the truth and twisting his, admittedly poorly chosen words, cut him to pieces. Carmen was never an employee of Palladium. He was a freelancer who worked off site, like all of our freelancers. He submitted the occasional book or contribution to a product like RRT. Carmen has never deliberately held back from making RRT great. Carmen was not trying to blackmail you to support his game. All he wanted to do was help, and he saw the Rift® board game as his way to start doing that. He wanted you to understand this. That your support for his Kickstarter – or at least not trying to undermine it – would enable him to help you and RRT, because he would finally have the time to devote to it, if he could quit his day job. He even shared his dream of being able to do a lot more work on RRT, Wave Two and future RRT releases, among other things. Carmen had a lot of big dreams and good intentions.
Where were we again? The gist of this part sounds familiar, like I read it before. Oh yeah, let's focus on the twisting the truth and words. How's Carmen going to like that when he sees his so-called friend taking this tragedy and twisting it to his own benefit?
Please realize that your words and tone may hurt another person as much as a bullet to the heart. Please, try to stop and think about what you say. Remember that human beings are fragile creatures. Try to find compassion and support for others, not tear them down. Try not to assume the worst or cast your assumptions and accusations against someone who does not deserve them. Not everyone is a bad guy. Not everyone is an enemy to be hated, attacked and ridiculed. Words matter. Lives matter. Kindness and tolerance matter. Perhaps more than ever before.
So instead of just providing a private update informing backers of what happened, you decide to make a public update where you proceed to lay blame for this at the feet of the roughly 5000 backers and rally your followers against them. Nice to see that you've also taken time to think about what to say and decided to add more fuel to the fire.
Asterios wrote: ...as it goes he should have done his own IP for his companies foundation, not a PB IP and I even said so.
100% agreement but not a thing anyone can do about it now or a few months ago.
I got sick on my own high horse crap I just wrote and deleted it.
I have seen people like Kevin S. in my life and seen the damage they do.
Do what you can to show him for the unethical person he is and protect those who do not know any better.
Thanks
I went to look at the RTT comments again.. and NMI (Palladium forum administrator) posted
"Apple Pie.. sweet apple pie"... Not sure what he was going for.. just bad taste in my book..
Okay.. I would say he had met and knew Carmen.. .. So Kevin S. condemns 5000 backers for
causing the apparent suicide and you feel it was the best idea to go post a trivial remark just to see
if you could get so called attacked also?? Great to see he uses his time wisely..
Wonder what it will be like when Gen Con rolls around... I am sure Kevin will be hidden from the public
and just come out for special rifts events..No reason to start caring what your customers think of your
business..
Genoside07 wrote: I went to look at the RTT comments again.. and NMI (Palladium forum administrator) posted
"Apple Pie.. sweet apple pie"... Not sure what he was going for.. just bad taste in my book..
I have no idea what that was about at all. I only know the guy by reputation for thinking he's Palldium's Defender of the Faith when most people see him as a ban happy bloopy honey badger. I mean, I knew to stay away from Palldium's boards ages ago because mass deletions and editing was the norm. That's the main reason I am so glad that kickstarter comments cannot be controlled by Palladium. I'm sure it infuriates Kevin to no end that he has to endure honesty and criticism as it is an alien beast to him for the most part.
Looks like it really was NMI over at 4chan. But it seems to be over now that the thread has been archived. I dont think we'll see anymore about it there, unless something else happens.
TwoGunBob wrote: I have no idea what that was about at all. I only know the guy by reputation for thinking he's Palldium's Defender of the Faith when most people see him as a ban happy bloopy honey badger. I mean, I knew to stay away from Palldium's boards ages ago because mass deletions and editing was the norm. That's the main reason I am so glad that kickstarter comments cannot be controlled by Palladium. I'm sure it infuriates Kevin to no end that he has to endure honesty and criticism as it is an alien beast to him for the most part.
Yet. Lots of PB fan-friends calling for letting KS creators moderate their KS comments due to this incident. I'm sure that power will not be abused at all -_-
I think that would be a bad idea for Kickstarter.. it also allows people to know what is going on with others;
If that is shut down.. I think less people would back projects thinking everything bad was hidden.
But also with the Rifts Board game, no matter how great it could be money isn't there for it. I am not the same
person I was four years ago.. I have passed on a number of great kickstarters because of no additional money for them.
Mythic Battles and Kingdom of Death 1.5 both looked great but eating food is more important to me at this point in my life..
Plus there is a flood of games to the point no one could ever keep up with them.. It even looks now that Weta is getting
into the miniature game business..
There could have been some great stuff Robotech game could have produced if in the right hands; And with a
good rules set it could help bring players in easily .. just look at how massive Star Wars X-wing game is.
I don't see Kickstarter doing that. They only act in two situations from what I've seen. When someone is sufficiently vulgar (with the creator needing to whine, of course) or someone suggesting threatening Kickstarter's money - such as Jay D. suggesting that the RRT Kickstarter be killed.
Sweet? I'd read quickly and thought he'd written "I sweat apple pies" and assumed it was a reference to how he'd eaten so many, it was leaking from his pores. It still makes more sense than what he actually wrote.
It's a broken sentence, perhaps he meant to write Apple pies, we spent the Kickstarter funds on sweet Apple pies.
The sad truth is as a backer who decides to stop backing new projects because of companies like Palladium Books, you lose nothing. It's the project creators that genuinely intend to use the platform to produce something they are passionate about that suffer. Way to destroy someone dreams Paladium.
We'd like you all to know Cartmen is on the mend but VARY FRAGILE right now from the CRISES OF HATRED that was heaped upon him. He think the ENTIRE ROLEPLAYING COMMUNITY HATES HIM!!!!!!!!!!!! We can't let the backers of a few toy robots win!!!!! To boost his confidence we need YOU guys to let him know we love and support him!!!! How can we do that? you ask? Well, I'm running a sell on anything Palladium that he was involved in and it would REALLY BOOST HIS CONFIDENCE if he saw a massive show of support by buying roleplaying games he was involved in. What better way to show support than BUYING product he was involved in to show we appreciate his tireless contributions to gaming. I'll also donate a (small) fraction on the products sold to offset medical bills and stuff. I'm so gracious and magnanimous this is not self servig at all. Together we can stop the CRISES OF HATRED!
The correct answer to this would be for Kevster to refund the money given for the Rifts IP until Carmen feels up to taking another charge at game development but you know Kevster, "Hey, a contract is a contract. That would put me in a delicate position. Quit suggesting ***I*** do something! I'm already cutting my own throat by putting books on sale!"
"I can't let someone out of a contract or I have to let everyone out of their contracts. My lawyer said so. I wish I could do otherwise, but my lawyer dictates every decision I make."
It would PAIN him that his lawyer advised him that his hands are tied in this regard. PAIN HIM! So buy some books already and quit trying to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong.
There is one new wrinkle. Apparently it's no longer a month for Chinese New Year that completely halts any ability to do anything. It's the time period from pre-Essen (October) through CNY that's cause for a "congested pipeline". So, if things don't happen before what, July/August (GenCon), they get to hide behind that excuse through until this time next year.
So, uh, Mike, want to provide a little context there?
If that's the same one people have mentioned this fiasco being talked about in, my understanding is that they don't come across as terribly informed, and it's like a 5 or 10 minute segment out of that 70 minute run time.
Mike, you need to put some context into URL's. Just linking a 70 minute podcast, with no context, and no specificity as to what you're wanting to address, isn't going to have me listening. And if I was concerned about data usage, I'd be miffed.
I even posted it on my blog. I stand by my comments there but I had a difficult time separating Carmen/Rogue Heroes. I think there is a difference.
As far as Jay goes (being banned) if I had to guess... His banning was likely in relation to the fact that he openly admitted that he planned to troll the future Rifts Board Game Kickstarter...
Hmmm... Someone should ask Kickstarter if Rogue Heroes was banned as well (just out of curiosity) since they we're discussing their Kickstarter in the comments section of another. The TOS isn't super specific in this regard, but it shouldn't be allowed. Then again Carmen is a creator on RRT... So who knows.
I wish the Kickstarter Ban Hammer was a bit more transparent and specific.
"You mean we get to use this Chinese New Year excuse EVERY YEAR??!?!" Kevin exclaimed excitedly, while plotting what crap to throw out as as excuse for not working the other four months a year.
Fun to see the White Knights in full wankery mode, however. Apparently, if you got Wave One you got everything you were owed.
Manchu wrote: The idea that users are barred from discussing one project in the comments section of another is a huge, huge red flag regarding KS itself.
I believe the "rule" is more to do with creators, rather than backers, using the Kickstarter to spruik non-Kickstarter related products and the like, and using it as a kind of advertising proxy.
So, you or I discussing the merits of one Kickstarter over another, is fine. Someone using their project's mailing list to sell a completely unrelated product? That's more what it's trying to avoid.
Mantic often cross-promote their stuff. But only within their own existent Kickstarters. Several others do.
But I could see where Kickstarter wouldn't want Creators backing numerous projects, just so they can advertise their own Kickstarters in the commentary. Not that I think it'd be effective (it looks like the number of people who read, let alone comment, is fractional). But I can see it as a problem if it wasn't regulated.
Not that I'm saying it happened with regards the Rifts Boardgame either. First off, Carmen doesn't actually link to anything. And second, if there hadn't been discussion about "warning people off", he might not have commented at all. I don't see any argument for banning Carmen, but then again, I don't see any reason for Jay to be punished, or Nathan to have his posts deleted (I don't know if he suffered any further punishment). While the result was tragic, I stand by my opinion that while a little heated, there was nothing in that exchange that warranted a suspension. I've seen similar levels of hostility on the Dakka Forums, that didn't get moderated. But c'est la vie.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Merijeek wrote: "You mean we get to use this Chinese New Year excuse EVERY YEAR??!?!" Kevin exclaimed excitedly, while plotting what crap to throw out as as excuse for not working the other four months a year.
More than that, he gets to write off at least October through February. The timeframe for getting quotes, or anything else done, is now only a halfyearly thing.
Merijeek wrote: "You mean we get to use this Chinese New Year excuse EVERY YEAR??!?!" Kevin exclaimed excitedly, while plotting what crap to throw out as as excuse for not working the other four months a year.
Fun to see the White Knights in full wankery mode, however. Apparently, if you got Wave One you got everything you were owed.
Maff is hard, apparently.
I'm pretty sure the rick hunter verotech was part of the actually campaign offering, not a stretch goal.
People pleadged with that model in the pledge descritions. And since it was pushed to wave 2, we still have a ticking point on that model at least
Ah, but that's the joy of dealing with Kevin's Cult.
"You pledged $300 on this stuff? With Palladium Books, everyone knows they're a bunch of people who are always at least a decade late. You deserved it!"
"You only pledged for $15? It's only $15! What are you, some kind of whiner? If you're such a loser that you can't handle a $15 loss maybe you should move back into your mom's basement!"
Any other dollar amount you'd like to throw out? I can use that amount to prove you're a terrible person too, if you'd like.
...I think calling them 'not terribly well informed' was being...kind.
Not to mention that their main point appears to be 'if you're really upset that you're out wave 2/money here, then you probably shouldn't have pledged at all'.
Curiously, they also appear to leave out how Carmen threatened to burn this KS down, or whatever it is he 'threatened' to do?
Odd...
Not being familiar with this podcast at all, is it a popular one?
TwoGunBob wrote: That dingbat really tried to go over to 4chan and yell them down? Wow, he must usually never leave the confines of the Palladium compound.
Actually, he does quite often. If theres a fight about palladium in another forum 80% chance he's in it. Otherwise its one of the other loyalists.
He will especially watch any site which is suppose to be friendly to palladium.
...I think calling them 'not terribly well informed' was being...kind.
Not to mention that their main point appears to be 'if you're really upset that you're out wave 2/money here, then you probably shouldn't have pledged at all'.
Curiously, they also appear to leave out how Carmen threatened to burn this KS down, or whatever it is he 'threatened' to do?
Odd...
Not being familiar with this podcast at all, is it a popular one?
I doubt it, unless people who have trouble sleeping listen to it, it practically put me too sleep
Alpharius wrote: That podcast...
...I think calling them 'not terribly well informed' was being...kind.
That is what I thought.. before you report something know something about it...
sounded like they where pulling up web pages as they were reporting it...
Plus just look at the RTT thread here on Dakka.. posters are so dangerous we been assigned
two moderators
Funny that the title of this update is 'Going Forward' when we're back to waiting for quotes and exploring reduced parts count.
So Gen-Con in late August plus recovering from con-crud kills September. October is Essen. Then we have the cash-grab/send palladium money, get random old stock from the warehouse sale November - January. February is CNY. CoastCon/Adepticon are in March. No worries, that's just 5 months of working really hard, 25 hours a day, 8 days a week minus the occasional day off where everyone in the office goes to see a movie (probably because there's not enough money to pay anyone to work that day). I'm sure work will get done. Soon.
Joyboozer wrote: All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.
Beasts of War stopped covering RRT a long time ago after the unboxing incident. (which also involved Carmen)
Briefly - Carmen Bellaire has freelanced for Palladium over the years, including on RRT. He started his own company and purchased a license from PB to do a Rifts board game called Rogue Heroes. He planned to seek funding via KS and RRT backers made it known that they would warn off potential Rogue Heroes backers. Mr. Bellaire posted in the RRTKS comments section that if RRT backers would refrain from interfering with Rogue Heroes then he would use his alleged knowledge and connections to "fix" the RRT mess. If RRT backers did warn people off Rogue Stars, however, he promised to let RRT "burn." RRT backers reacted negatively and Mr. Bellaire stopped posting. Then rumors started to spread of Mr. Bellaire having some kind of medical problems. Ultimately, Mr. Siembieda posted an update to the RRTKS disclaiming that Mr. Bellaire had never made any threats regarding RRT, that all he really meant was that if Rogue Heroes was successful then he could devote his full time to game development, including informally helping with RRT, and that RRT backers' reactions to his bumbling words were so hurtful, it had caused him to attempt suicide,
Thank you for the summary. Carmen clearly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer in that case. And while depression and suicide are no joke, based on what you've communicated above, he's clearly not up to the task of running a KS with that kind of temperament. I did receive Kevin's rambling incoherent update, though.
Morgan Vening wrote: Not that I'm saying it happened with regards the Rifts Boardgame either. First off, Carmen doesn't actually link to anything. And second, if there hadn't been discussion about "warning people off", he might not have commented at all. I don't see any argument for banning Carmen, but then again, I don't see any reason for Jay to be punished, or Nathan to have his posts deleted (I don't know if he suffered any further punishment). While the result was tragic, I stand by my opinion that while a little heated, there was nothing in that exchange that warranted a suspension. I've seen similar levels of hostility on the Dakka Forums, that didn't get moderated. But c'est la vie.
That's true, but he's still attempting to head the issues off. For the most part we agree. All I was saying was that I thought the act of him posting about the Rifts Board Game (for any reason) in the comments section of RRT was something that Kickstarter should consider, especially since they are willing to ban a backer for his/her comments from the same discussion.
As I mentioned earlier Jay was likely banned because of his claim that he would troll Carmen's future Kickstarter. To me that was his worst offense and givin' the situation it wasn't that bad. The problem with that is that as of yet, the Rifts Board Game Kickstarter doesn't even exist. Jays suspension doesn't make sense, but if you are going to ban a guy for expressing his opinion heatedly about something that doesn't exists; what about the contributing creator Carmen Bellaire, who says if his (non existing) Kickstarter doesn't fund, he hopes (mind you, in the very same comments section) that this Kickstarter (which does exist) burns...
Morgan Vening wrote: Not that I'm saying it happened with regards the Rifts Boardgame either. First off, Carmen doesn't actually link to anything. And second, if there hadn't been discussion about "warning people off", he might not have commented at all. I don't see any argument for banning Carmen, but then again, I don't see any reason for Jay to be punished, or Nathan to have his posts deleted (I don't know if he suffered any further punishment). While the result was tragic, I stand by my opinion that while a little heated, there was nothing in that exchange that warranted a suspension. I've seen similar levels of hostility on the Dakka Forums, that didn't get moderated. But c'est la vie.
That's true, but he's still attempting to head the issues off. For the most part we agree. All I was saying was that I thought the act of him posting about the Rifts Board Game (for any reason) in the comments section of RRT was something that Kickstarter should consider, especially since they are willing to ban a backer for his/her comments from the same discussion.
As I mentioned earlier Jay was likely banned because of his claim that he would troll Carmen's future Kickstarter. To me that was his worst offense and givin' the situation it wasn't that bad. The problem with that is that as of yet, the Rifts Board Game Kickstarter doesn't even exist. Jays suspension doesn't make sense, but if you are going to ban a guy for expressing his opinion heatedly about something that doesn't exists; what about the contributing creator Carmen Bellaire, who says if his (non existing) Kickstarter doesn't fund, he hopes (mind you, in the very same comments section) that this Kickstarter (which does exist) burns...
I hate Kickstarter-
Regarding the first point, it was more that it wasn't spam in the traditional sense. Funnily enough, Jorel (known for personal attacks at the drop of a hat) did an example of what I was talking about for the Terminator game in the midst of the discussion. Though I highly doubt he's in any way a Creator.
Regarding the ban, if the Kickstarter goes ahead as planned, there's a real irony that Jay's suspension will have timed out when the Kickstarter happens. Given the remorse he's shown, I doubt Jay will sign up, let alone comment, but there's a twisted humor to a guy being suspended for threatening to harass a campaign having his suspension run it's entirety before the new campaign was even potentially scheduled to start (Carmen did say EoMarch/SoApril, but Kevin on the same day said Mid April/EoApril in his PBWU, I'd side with Carmen, cause I don't believe anything Kevin writes, but still).
I mean, there's the official rules and the unwritten ones people generally follow, even if it takes a little prompting.
Best I can tell;
- Creators are allows to suggest other projects that they think are cool on their own campaign updates/comments. While no, spamming people with sales updates can be uncouth, advertising for their own next campaign, or active campaigns they think have value is something I see pretty regularly in some circles. Doing this while their campaign is live can be iffy by diverting funds they might otherwise get, but it's sort of a communal angle that some (certainly not all) campaigns play.
- Backers talking about other campaigns in a live campaign is annoying. I don't know if it's explicitly verboten, but it's kind of bad form. Assessing interest and value during multiple running campaigns isn't easy, but (as an example) it feeling like every damned comment section on the platform was talking about Kingdom Death 1.5 got obnoxious quickly.
- Backers talking about other campaigns in one that has already concluded, even if not permitted (again, I haven't dug into the TOS lately, and whether or not it's explicitly laid out, this isn't just the idealized 'how it should be', but I'm addressing 'how it generally is'), is usually less of a big deal. Some people get their knickers in a twist over it, but especially once a few months have passed, those people are being unreasonable. A fraction of the activity is happening, those sections generally just become general chats until something big happens (major update, delivery pending, boxes being received, etc).
That all said, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter is tired of people trolling with pledges. If he got a ban, that wouldn't be an unreasonable justification, and would fit with the 1 month time out he got. If they really felt he was way out of line with this whole situation and actually drove a man to the brink, he wouldn't have gotten a slap on the wrist.
This kind of stuff is interesting to see evolve, and can get pretty 'meta'... like right now, I suppose. Talking about how we talk on the platform.
Yeah, I honestly think if you say "I will troll" you are done no matter how justified you feel.
I am pretty sure that is what did it to me on the KS site.
Mention it once in your entire posting career and get slapped hard.
As to having two moderators, I suspect this whole thing is a guilty pleasure for both.
It is certainly perplexing how long it has dragged on and passions can remain high.
I always figured apathy is easy: it takes someone to actually care about something in order to get angry.
I think what keeps me engaged in all this is the more naïve part of me just cannot understand how things could run this long and not be considered illegal:
I make an agreement to give you stuff for money with an estimated delivery date.
I take money.
I allow further orders of stuff with more money to be paid up front.
I for a time refuse to give a new date for shipment.
I state often "no refunds!".
I give you some of the agreed stuff and try say that is good enough.
Personally I would expect to have the police sent after me or a small claims court notice sent or a collections agency after me.
I think most people expect justice in this world should work.
I think it all falls off the rails when a narcissist is in charge.
Hi everyone! happy 2017, just checking in after 1 year. only came back to see the drama of the Rifts board game.
I can't believe its been almost 2 years since Kevin has started too reduce parts and ask for quotes. I never knew getting a quote would be this hard, especially since 'wave 1' was already produced.
I think Carman was very unlucky to have ties with Robotech KS just like the rest of us backers. In a sense he is a victim too, his reputation will be forever linked with it. It will take someone with tremendous talent and skill to distance oneself from Robotech KS. look at people like Alesso, McVey, Ronnie, and Andy. they made a good game from GW and now they can do whatever game they want with gamer support instead of backlash.
speaking of GW. I backed Robotech KS during a time when GW cannot do anything right. Now just look how improved GW is! KS will need to step up really well to get money out of me when GW is pushing out great boardgames month after month.
The industry is moving so fast these couple of years! back in 2013 I honestly think the models we are given are ok. too many parts but not a deal breaker. in 2017 those same models have not aged well. I don't expect Kevin has the ability to improved the model beyond the wave 1 scripts. and backers will still be annoyed at whatever finalized wave 2 models.
I still want this KS to fulfill all its promise to backers. Its the right thing to do. I do not support a Robotech 2nd ed when the first KS hasn't been fulfilled.
Its nice to still see a lot of old faces here, you guys are the real troopers!
I was pretty much in the area of apathy as well. I just occasionally drop in to the comments section to see how people are analyzing the latest (non)update from the desk of Palladium. Yeah, my first reaction to Carmen's project was that Kevin duped one of his sycophants into putting together a shell company to run another Palladium kickstarter because Kevin, flush with success of the Rifts/ Savage World kickstarter, had a massive micro-hard on for more of the kickstarter monies. I figured old Kevvy was working up to a froth trying to figure out how to get around the bad karma of the Robotech kickstarter and Carmen was more his partner in crime than an overzealous freelancer. Course in light of the situation with Carmen I'm rather thinking he was an investor for the IP that never expected the RRT kickstarer would STILL be overshadowing his project and effective neutering it so badly.
I'll be more curious what Carmen himself has to say but I think he'll be muzzled significantly by Kevin crushing him with a NDA or he may remain quiet out of 'friendship' to Kevin. I really think this will play out as one of those things you never hear the truth about unfortunately. Regardless, the spin turned to mostly backlash against Kevin and Palladium despite the plethora of misinformation that was spread by some outlets. And believe me, those outlets that half assed reported this with click bait titles have been noted and I hope most of us will be sure not to support them with any traffic.
End of the day, Carmen will be fine, RRT is no closer to being finished, and Kevin continues to pretend people still have faith in him repeating the same update so much with a few changed words it has become a mantra.
Forar wrote: That all said, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter is tired of people trolling with pledges.
I'm quite sure they are. Probably as much as a lot of people is tired of pledging for a KS just to see it go tits up and KS not doing anything at all.
So it kinda goes both ways, is what I'm saying, although I admit I have only pledged just $1 for a single KS, the HG one, and that was a placeholder to wait and see on the final quality.
If Palladium is so worried about what people are going to say in the KS comments section they could always just take the approach they do with their books and offer a pre-order through their website. That way there's no uncontrolled public comment section to deal with. But I suspect they were blown away by the volumes of money that using KS raised vs their in house crowd funding. Tragically however they haven't figured out the main reason that Robotech did so well on KS which was the fact as it was being promoted as being detached from Palladium itself. It was a Ninja Division project that supposedly only had PB signing off on which was enough to lure backers in. Had it been marketed and sold as a PB product it would have done far, far worse.
The only reason I was willing to give this a chance was due to the ND name. Not that they are some sort of gaming giant but I'd seen the stuff they'd previously made and even when there were problems they'd at least put their best foot forward and continued to work on getting things resolved. This is certainly not the case with PB who when faced with problems have completely clammed up and keep all of the backers in the dark while they have made zero progress. The moment that the KS closed and PB started exerting control over the project I knew that it was going pear shaped and things were going to fall off the rails. It's sad because as a fan of Robotech I really wanted to see this game take flight, now it's dead and no amount of effort is going to be able to revive it.
This has proven to be the straw that broke the camels back for me, for years we've suffered through HG mismanaging the Robotech property but despite that I never lost my love for it. RRT however managed to do the one thing that even HG couldn't in all those years, it killed my love for Robotech. I washed my hands of this KS as a total loss. I sold my wave one stuff and will do the same with the wave two if it ever arrives. I just have to hang my head in sorrow when I think of what Robotech could have been had things been done differently.
Albertorius nailed it with me. I've done three kickstarters and only one delivered. The other one that has failed delivery has had a creator being completely transparent about mistakes he's made, people that promised him things and failed to deliver. I'm not mad about it but all added up it's enough to get me to refuse to use kickstarter ever again. The company's complete impotence and reluctance to enforce their rules and policies against creators that basically steal investors' money has assured I will never use that platform because I don't want kickstarter to get a cut as they are just as culpable in this because they get a share in the investors money and fail to act on behalf of the investors. In fact it appears they take an antagonistic stance against them when told to do waht they promise to do as a front for creators.
Forar wrote: That all said, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter is tired of people trolling with pledges.
I'm quite sure they are. Probably as much as a lot of people is tired of pledging for a KS just to see it go tits up and KS not doing anything at all.
So it kinda goes both ways, is what I'm saying, although I admit I have only pledged just $1 for a single KS, the HG one, and that was a placeholder to wait and see on the final quality.
Agreed! The problem isn't the "trolling", as it's actually a symptom of an irresponsible Creator who fails to deliver, then fails to communicate. Fix the irresponsible Creator problem, and the "trolling" disappears as an issue. If there were some teeth that we could sink into deadbeat creators like PB, a KS Creator accountability process, then there wouldn't be this issue of people demanding answers in subsequent campaigns.
I've pledged $1 for a few of KS to keep tabs on the campaign, and determine whether I wanted to convert them to full pledges down the line once the excitement of the campaign wears off. I think it's small money well-spent to stay informed and manage risk.
Also, I paid $40 for my MAC-II Monster. Give me my fething model, you fethers!
I posted a comment on the newest update and earned a 7 day ban because of it. I'm done being nice to PB and KS and KS and am going to be a mouth-breathing cave-dweller in regards to this whole...thing.
After the 16SEP update was a month old I began writing Kickstarter support once a week informing them of the fact that there were no project updates yet. After the third report in I stopped receiving automated emails saying my report was received. This leads me to believe that I was either blacklisted or ignored in some way.
At this point I can't leave comments or write to support. Once I have my ban lifted I'll be drafting a scathing and vulgar email to support to see if I can get my account suspended. Because at this point I don't care. I'm already not going to get my money or my product, nor will I ever use a crowdfunding platform again so who cares, right?
Researching the Asylum kickstarter lawsuit and well...
"Late this past July, the Washington State Office of the Attorney General somewhat quietly announced that Altius Management and Edward J. Polchlopek III lost the legal battle initiated last year. King County Superior Court Commissioner Henry Judson ordered the duo to pay $54,851 in civil penalties and restitution, as well as legal fees, over the “shady deal” Kickstarter campaign.
Washington state residents who backed the campaign will receive $668 (combined) in restitution — of which, there are 31 total individuals. The civil penalties amount to $31,000 for what is said to be $1,000 per violation of Washington’s Consumer Protection Act. And, finally, the legal fees and costs amount to $23,183."
I'm going to hazard a guess that the only people that really WON were the lawyers. Boiled down to backers getting a whopping $21.55 each if I'm reading that correctly. Sorry if this has already been discussed in detail but I was actually puttering around more than usual as this latest nonsense from Uncle Kevin has right chapped my hide.
Kickstarter is not going about this the right way - BUT I guess we shouldn't be surprised as I'm sure that Kickstarter unfairly probably wants to continue to support the notion that they are 100% not able to help or liable in anyway whatsoever, but they'll gladly continue to collect those sweet, sweet Kickstarter fees.
10% right?
Wow.
I'm sure that they'll eventually be actual legislation that reigns in some of this nonsense, eventually.
TwoGunBob wrote: Researching the Asylum kickstarter lawsuit and well...
"Late this past July, the Washington State Office of the Attorney General somewhat quietly announced that Altius Management and Edward J. Polchlopek III lost the legal battle initiated last year. King County Superior Court Commissioner Henry Judson ordered the duo to pay $54,851 in civil penalties and restitution, as well as legal fees, over the “shady deal” Kickstarter campaign.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the only people that really WON were the lawyers.
Thing is, I'd be totally OK if this happened to PB. The satisfaction of PB being hit with a legal judgement and forced into bankruptcy would be so sweet.
TwoGunBob wrote: Researching the Asylum kickstarter lawsuit and well...
"Late this past July, the Washington State Office of the Attorney General somewhat quietly announced that Altius Management and Edward J. Polchlopek III lost the legal battle initiated last year. King County Superior Court Commissioner Henry Judson ordered the duo to pay $54,851 in civil penalties and restitution, as well as legal fees, over the “shady deal” Kickstarter campaign.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the only people that really WON were the lawyers.
Thing is, I'd be totally OK if this happened to PB. The satisfaction of PB being hit with a legal judgement and forced into bankruptcy would be so sweet.
yeah and the $21 would be icing on the cake, get a pizza and a soda to celebrate with
Just read the latest update.. more of "we are working on it"
I am sure Kevin is a smart man and very well read.. Knowing the kickstarter guidelines, he can continue to do nothing
and never need to report anything as long as he keeps saying he is working on it.. but doesn't have to show real progress.
Palladium games and all things with it is dead to me.. If I found tomorrow at my FLGS every single Rifts book for $100
if you bought them all.. I would pass on it...
Not going to file anything either.. there is either no laws or laws that would favor him. Plus it would cost me more money and time than its worth..
I can not buy their products and hope Karma will catch up with him; then leave it as that...
I'm actually finding the lack of culpability of Kickstarter as an organization accepting a cut of money from investors (backers) interesting. That Kickstarter keeps changing it's terms of services in regards to advances in laws involving digital rights and responsibilities is VERY telling. It's very much my own lack of foresight in regards to Kickstarter itself and their TOS clearing themselves of any responsibilities other than collecting the sweet sweet monies.
It's going to take something much bigger than 1.4 million dollars on a failed project to get real movement towards analyzing the entire situation be fine legal minds. That is, someone is going to have to throw a lot of $$$'s at legal properties and convince them that they can get their pound of flesh from Kickstarter itself to start any real consumer protection.
It's interesting and enlightening and a lesson learned for myself that I should very much read TOS clearly rather than acting in good faith. Kickstarter itself can afford to alienate thousands, possibly tens of thousands of backers, and it will not bring into effect any change until the entity's bottom line is affected. That is, string upon string of failed projects because people realize that Kickstarter allows just short of theft and basically shrugs its shoulders and declares 'investor beware'.
I'd have said Palladium was in violation of investor contract when they pushed Ninja Division out but the Kickstarter contract between us as backers and Palladium is sketchy as I don't think we have recourse on Palladium's courses of action.
Edit for clarification- By string of failed projects, I mean fail to fund as that means Kickstarter starts not getting it's sweet monies. If Kickstarter projects fail to get any funding THEN kickstarter will start to possibly favor the backers.
Forar wrote: That all said, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter is tired of people trolling with pledges.
I'm quite sure they are. Probably as much as a lot of people is tired of pledging for a KS just to see it go tits up and KS not doing anything at all.
So it kinda goes both ways, is what I'm saying, although I admit I have only pledged just $1 for a single KS, the HG one, and that was a placeholder to wait and see on the final quality.
That comes down to intent, which is up to both the person writing comments to convey and the person reading their comments to interpret.
"I'm going to pledge $1 to warn people about my experiences with a tangential campaign" is, imo, not trolling. The Creator may not like it, but while the definition of 'trolling' may have evolved over the years, but "only say things the Creator will like" is a far cry from "be considerate and respectful" as Kickstarter requests of their chat sections. One can be vocally displeased while maintaining that level of discourse.
"I'm going to pledge $1 to gak up the comments" and variations thereof, is less defensible. It goes from public service (even if motivated by negative experiences) to revenge and/or harassment. Of course, some people manage to pull that off even without trying.
Neither are exactly something the platform should be eager about, but if they want this to be a 'community' they have to respect that portions of the Creator base will abuse the platform, or utilize it questionably, and bluntly they've left it upon the Backers to police much of that. Kickstarter is very hands off on a lot of aspects, so without people being willing to speak out (and able to), more actual scams and questionable situations would be allowed to proliferate, further damaging Kickstarter's brand power (for those who still give a feth, of course, I am will aware of the "NEVER AGAIN A KICKSTARTER!" types).
The 'pledge huge, pull at the last minute' crowd, imo, is a bigger problem. Especially on a medium sized campaign, where getting 180k instead of 200k (as an example) could be a big deal that feths the creator over, finding themselves overpromised and underfunded considerably, even if they had a reasonable level of contingency padding in place.
I've seen campaigns backslide like 30k in the final minutes because some donkey caves decided to do that. It's frustrating as a backer, it must be infuriating as a Creator, that part I can understand having a zero tolerance policy on.
Forar wrote: That all said, I'm pretty sure Kickstarter is tired of people trolling with pledges.
I'm quite sure they are. Probably as much as a lot of people is tired of pledging for a KS just to see it go tits up and KS not doing anything at all.
So it kinda goes both ways, is what I'm saying, although I admit I have only pledged just $1 for a single KS, the HG one, and that was a placeholder to wait and see on the final quality.
That comes down to intent, which is up to both the person writing comments to convey and the person reading their comments to interpret.
"I'm going to pledge $1 to warn people about my experiences with a tangential campaign" is, imo, not trolling. The Creator may not like it, but while the definition of 'trolling' may have evolved over the years, but "only say things the Creator will like" is a far cry from "be considerate and respectful" as Kickstarter requests of their chat sections. One can be vocally displeased while maintaining that level of discourse.
"I'm going to pledge $1 to gak up the comments" and variations thereof, is less defensible. It goes from public service (even if motivated by negative experiences) to revenge and/or harassment. Of course, some people manage to pull that off even without trying.
Neither are exactly something the platform should be eager about, but if they want this to be a 'community' they have to respect that portions of the Creator base will abuse the platform, or utilize it questionably, and bluntly they've left it upon the Backers to police much of that. Kickstarter is very hands off on a lot of aspects, so without people being willing to speak out (and able to), more actual scams and questionable situations would be allowed to proliferate, further damaging Kickstarter's brand power (for those who still give a feth, of course, I am will aware of the "NEVER AGAIN A KICKSTARTER!" types).
The 'pledge huge, pull at the last minute' crowd, imo, is a bigger problem. Especially on a medium sized campaign, where getting 180k instead of 200k (as an example) could be a big deal that feths the creator over, finding themselves overpromised and underfunded considerably, even if they had a reasonable level of contingency padding in place.
I've seen campaigns backslide like 30k in the final minutes because some donkey caves decided to do that. It's frustrating as a backer, it must be infuriating as a Creator, that part I can understand having a zero tolerance policy on.
but then why was I banned for a month from KickStarter? (all my posts are there) I was not part of the pledge a dollar then back out group or what not.
Is Kickstarter not responsible for giving you, an investor, a clear cut answer regarding affecting your ability to interact with the people you invested money with? Kickstarter is not a community it is still a vested intermediary between you and a creator. I wouldn't think they could arbitrarily stifle you as this isn't some free forum. You have PAID to have the ability to voice opinions.
TwoGunBob wrote: Is Kickstarter not responsible for giving you, an investor, a clear cut answer regarding affecting your ability to interact with the people you invested money with? Kickstarter is not a community it is still a vested intermediary between you and a creator. I wouldn't think they could arbitrarily stifle you as this isn't some free forum. You have PAID to have the ability to voice opinions.
this is all they told me:
Hello,
This is the second time that we have noticed you posted abusive content. As previously mentioned, this kind of activity is against our Community Guidelines and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.
Due to your inability to comply with our guidelines, your ability to message has been revoked until Mar 26 2017 11:31 am EST, your ability to comment has been revoked until Mar 26 2017 11:31 am EST, and your ability to post on Campus has been revoked until Mar 26 2017 11:31 am EST.
Again, we understand the necessity of an open discourse, but we expect all members of our community to conduct discussion in a manner that is compliant with our Community Guidelines.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Best,
Kickstarter
on a side note while all the "vocal minority" have been banned form the KS forums, there are new voices to take up the chant of wheres our stuff and bad Palladium.
Do you have the ability to respond to that? Like I said, Kickstarter got paid by YOU when they took their cut so you deserve clear answers as to what they consider was a breach of their guidelines. Waffling some nonsense about community guidelines. You know, they need to cite it so you can go, "okay, I pushed the limits, my bad". On a free forum I understand somewhat arbitrary stifles and bans but there was money involved.
Sorry, never went through any banning process with kickstarter and finding them treating backers as if it's a proboard is even more aggravating.
Alpharius wrote: They didn't tell you what the 'abusive content' was?
You should ask for specifics.
no they didn't and I did send an email, since my post to Carmen was about the most abusive post in a long while and that wasn't abusive. so it makes me wonder what is really going on? is KickStarter now starting to feel the heat from this project? they can't shut the project down since it could make them culpable for refunding backers. so they hush the board to their best ability?
I haven't ben banned/put in a time out yet. I am one of the put in a dollar people. I tried being civil in my wording, but there were several that were more kind than mine, and most were "thinking of" types, at least until Carmen tried to blackmail me.
Asterios wrote: but then why was I banned for a month from KickStarter? (all my posts are there) I was not part of the pledge a dollar then back out group or what not.
Out of idle curiosity, I went and looked, and before I answer, I'm setting some ground rules;
Don't bother arguing the point. I don't want to hear it, and am only responding to see if you can be even remotely reasonable here. I really doubt it, but I'm open to being surprised. This is *my* opinion, I have no insight as to Kickstarter policy or the mind of the particular person who gave you a time out.
"Hello Carmen, for starters let me state your project is doomed to failure, why? nothing to do with PB or RRT but neither of those will be helping you either, but no your project is doomed to failure because of issues you have not taken into consideration which will raises costs considerably for you, furthermore you will be coupled with a low funding amount, compared to actual amount you will need for production and shipping to you. and the fact you are in Canada will hurt you even more. Now I could tell you the factors you are forgetting and I know you are forgetting, but seeing as how you have so much experience in the board gaming world I should not need to tell you, so I won't. Now as to the PB RIFTs IP, wow you actually believe the hype about a dead game with a small following and even smaller support, you would have been better designing your own IP and game, it would have been a lot less of a hassle and less worrisome for you me thinks? As to RRT you know as well as I do PB's out of money, they have debt collectors coming at them out of the woodworks there is nothing to save RRT. and finally Murphy's law is against you, PB got lucky in that they do not have a lawyer among their backers to bring suit against them, now if your project fails to deliver do you think you will be so lucky? would wish you luck but that would be a farce since your project is doomed to failure. especially since in all things you mentioned you failed to mention the one major thing that PB never had either."
"oh and Carmen Want to thank you for a big laugh, since the only way you can help with RRT is to give Kevin the money to finish it and that it can only be used on RRT wave 2 and to finish the backers stuff in a timely manner, that is the only way you can help get RRT on track, to even think you can have any sway with Kevin is laughable at best."
"oh one last thing Carmen definitely invest in a PR rep because while you think you are meaning well your words do not seem so, you seem disingenuous or even smarmy. in other words you are not helping yourself but harming yourself and any chance of your game funding, and to be honest your best bet is if the game does not fund, since you are ill prepared if it does so."
This string, during the exchange with Carmen, makes you look like a donkey cave. It's not constructive, it's taunting, "I know something you don't know" which is always obnoxious (where have we heard that before?) and whatnot. If I had to make a guess what might've gotten reported by someone, or picked up upon by a Kickstarter person reviewing the exchange, I could see them deciding "this person doesn't need to interact with others for a while".
And, to be *crystal fething clear*, that's just my guess based on you asking and a cursory review of your last couple days of posts. I don't actually know, and I'm certainly not going to go to bat for you over it. You have conducted yourself with an "I'm a donkey cave, what of it buttercup" stance for years. You speak in absolutes, there's no grey in your statements, not "I think this might harm your project", it's "YOU WILL FAIL, AND I KNOW WHY AND I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHY, IN FACT IT'D BE BEST IF YOU FAILED LOL". Surprise surprise, Kickstarter does not, in fact, have to 'suck it up'. Unlike most users and even Creators, they *do* have the tools to handle such a situation.
The posts still being there would indicate to me that no one thing was so over the line it needed to be removed, but that it was more based on a number of posts, if not a pattern of behaviour.
And lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I won't be surprised if I catch a month timeout of my own. Not because I think I went over the line in this past week of shenanigans, but because I won't be shocked if Kickstarter policy involves liberal application of said time outs when something serious like this goes down.
Asterios wrote: but then why was I banned for a month from KickStarter? (all my posts are there) I was not part of the pledge a dollar then back out group or what not.
Out of idle curiosity, I went and looked, and before I answer, I'm setting some ground rules;
Don't bother arguing the point. I don't want to hear it, and am only responding to see if you can be even remotely reasonable here. I really doubt it, but I'm open to being surprised. This is *my* opinion, I have no insight as to Kickstarter policy or the mind of the particular person who gave you a time out.
"Hello Carmen, for starters let me state your project is doomed to failure, why? nothing to do with PB or RRT but neither of those will be helping you either, but no your project is doomed to failure because of issues you have not taken into consideration which will raises costs considerably for you, furthermore you will be coupled with a low funding amount, compared to actual amount you will need for production and shipping to you. and the fact you are in Canada will hurt you even more. Now I could tell you the factors you are forgetting and I know you are forgetting, but seeing as how you have so much experience in the board gaming world I should not need to tell you, so I won't. Now as to the PB RIFTs IP, wow you actually believe the hype about a dead game with a small following and even smaller support, you would have been better designing your own IP and game, it would have been a lot less of a hassle and less worrisome for you me thinks? As to RRT you know as well as I do PB's out of money, they have debt collectors coming at them out of the woodworks there is nothing to save RRT. and finally Murphy's law is against you, PB got lucky in that they do not have a lawyer among their backers to bring suit against them, now if your project fails to deliver do you think you will be so lucky? would wish you luck but that would be a farce since your project is doomed to failure. especially since in all things you mentioned you failed to mention the one major thing that PB never had either."
"oh and Carmen Want to thank you for a big laugh, since the only way you can help with RRT is to give Kevin the money to finish it and that it can only be used on RRT wave 2 and to finish the backers stuff in a timely manner, that is the only way you can help get RRT on track, to even think you can have any sway with Kevin is laughable at best."
"oh one last thing Carmen definitely invest in a PR rep because while you think you are meaning well your words do not seem so, you seem disingenuous or even smarmy. in other words you are not helping yourself but harming yourself and any chance of your game funding, and to be honest your best bet is if the game does not fund, since you are ill prepared if it does so."
This string, during the exchange with Carmen, makes you look like a donkey cave. It's not constructive, it's taunting, "I know something you don't know" which is always obnoxious (where have we heard that before?) and whatnot. If I had to make a guess what might've gotten reported by someone, or picked up upon by a Kickstarter person reviewing the exchange, I could see them deciding "this person doesn't need to interact with others for a while".
And, to be *crystal fething clear*, that's just my guess based on you asking and a cursory review of your last couple days of posts. I don't actually know, and I'm certainly not going to go to bat for you over it. You have conducted yourself with an "I'm a donkey cave, what of it buttercup" stance for years. You speak in absolutes, there's no grey in your statements, not "I think this might harm your project", it's "YOU WILL FAIL, AND I KNOW WHY AND I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHY, IN FACT IT'D BE BEST IF YOU FAILED LOL". Surprise surprise, Kickstarter does not, in fact, have to 'suck it up'. Unlike most users and even Creators, they *do* have the tools to handle such a situation.
The posts still being there would indicate to me that no one thing was so over the line it needed to be removed, but that it was more based on a number of posts, if not a pattern of behaviour.
And lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I won't be surprised if I catch a month timeout of my own. Not because I think I went over the line in this past week of shenanigans, but because I won't be shocked if Kickstarter policy involves liberal application of said time outs when something serious like this goes down.
and yet all that I said there is still mild compared to many other things I have said and yet no banning or even warning, so I highly doubt that is it, since they only indicate this banning is because of one post, yet none of them have been removed as of yet, which still begs the question which post? and why did they not tell me? I think something more underlies what is going on here.
I'm guessing this applies to backers only? Having provided Kickstarter with absolute proof of creators flagrantly ignoring guidelines and openly mocking the guidelines whilst doing so, Kickstarter did nothing.
Asterios wrote: and yet all that I said there is still mild compared to many other things I have said and yet no banning or even warning, so I highly doubt that is it, since they only indicate this banning is because of one post, yet none of them have been removed as of yet, which still begs the question which post? and why did they not tell me? I think something more underlies what is going on here.
Okay, this I can work with.
It could be that someone specifically reported your comments (hence you getting tagged and some others not), or it could be that this mess is taking them a while to go over, hence why the time outs are occurring over a period of days, they may have a person or team going over this situation and those calls might not be made swiftly for edge cases.
As I said, it might not be any one single post that egregiously breaches their community standards, but a pattern of behaviour. Which could take a while to assess, based on having like 6,000 posts of yours to glance through if they wanted to see how you interact with people normally.
Why not tell you? No idea. Hopefully they will. With forums I'm active on, I prefer transparent moderation; if someone needs discipline, they should know why. Hence why Jefffar and NMI and the mod team at the Palladium Forums just deleting things they don't like rubs me the wrong way, but from another angle.
I think it's context to Carmen's state. Kickstarter has presented itself as anything other than evenhanded I'm not siding with them necessarily. They would still need to say that they felt one or all of the posts they felt broke their guidelines.
I really do think KS has it backwards in that they think if there's no creators there's no money. Fact is they could have a trillion creators but if there are no backers, there's no income. Honestly, if I see a kickstarter I cannot resist I simply email the creator directly and ask if it's okay that I circumvent KS getting their cut and simply give them the frigging money for a tier reward like they are offering.
I note that I haven't had a creator say "no" yet. It's not like kickstarter offers any protection that you otherwise have by using their platform rather than just giving the creator your money.
Asterios wrote: and yet all that I said there is still mild compared to many other things I have said and yet no banning or even warning, so I highly doubt that is it, since they only indicate this banning is because of one post, yet none of them have been removed as of yet, which still begs the question which post? and why did they not tell me? I think something more underlies what is going on here.
Okay, this I can work with.
It could be that someone specifically reported your comments (hence you getting tagged and some others not), or it could be that this mess is taking them a while to go over, hence why the time outs are occurring over a period of days, they may have a person or team going over this situation and those calls might not be made swiftly for edge cases.
As I said, it might not be any one single post that egregiously breaches their community standards, but a pattern of behaviour. Which could take a while to assess, based on having like 6,000 posts of yours to glance through if they wanted to see how you interact with people normally.
Why not tell you? No idea. Hopefully they will. With forums I'm active on, I prefer transparent moderation; if someone needs discipline, they should know why. Hence why Jefffar and NMI and the mod team at the Palladium Forums just deleting things they don't like rubs me the wrong way, but from another angle.
even this place when they ban me they tell me why and where, but how KS did it, it left nothing but questions.
I'm guessing this applies to backers only? Having provided Kickstarter with absolute proof of creators flagrantly ignoring guidelines and openly mocking the guidelines whilst doing so, Kickstarter did nothing.
Yes. KS will do nothing to creators. It will also openly promote very late KS that funded well as indications of how successful a platform it is.
Asterios wrote: even this place when they ban me they tell me why and where, but how KS did it, it left nothing but questions.
The fact you've been banned on multiple forums might be worthy of reflection.
I've been on one forum for nearly 14 years and while I've gotten 'infractions'/warnings, I've never been banned on that one.
Thinking back, the only forum I earned a temp ban on was the PB Forums, and that was when they decided to pre-emptively tag a bunch of us.
And I think we can all wear our PBForum temp bans with pride, even if they were for questionable reasons.
Hi Jefffar!
got banned here for politics, people wouldn't believe me when I told them Trump would win the election, oh well.
and first ban on KS, and then my proudly worn lifetime ban on PB forums, considering only times I've been banned on all the forums I peruse it is not a bad run for me.
edit: ok just read the weekly update by Kevin, and oh my God he did not go there?
lets just start he said the same thing Carmen did that got the entire backer forum in a tizzy:
This is a lifelong dream and something Carmen has been working hard to make a reality. He and his team have been working on the Rifts® board game and its many components for the last 2-3 years or so. In addition to making his own games, it should give him the opportunity to return to Robotech® and help Palladium with our plans for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics and further develop the game line in a big way.
so he's saying if Carmen's games a success he can help with the RRT project
furthermore he goes on to blame certain backers for being the tipping point for his attempted suicide and before that he wants him to continue with the RIFT's boardgame forgetting that game is what put him into his downward spiral, Carmen should not do the game, he should stay far away from it and put his energies into a product without so much anger towards like all PB products have towards them.
and then he goes on into a spiel about naysayers and dreamers and so forth
n815e wrote: Rifter subscription plug is more important than Carmen's health.
As is the next Rifter.
As Kevin mentions it, this is done "newspaper style". And so Kevin puts the first mention of Carmen's conditon and recovery in a PBWU on page 2, below the fold.
Doesn't help his case that he tries to subvert Carmen's situation to be essentially that an attack on Carmen is an attack on everyone who worked with him, which is defacto an attack on Palladium.
As for the Wave 2 stuff, it's still the same old garbage.
TLDR version of the lengthy but uninformative RRT stuff.
- You're disappointed, we're disappointed, but the relaunch is gonna be mega!
- Working on making the models better. But don't have a manufacturer. But have quotes out! (which seems ass backwards, given you kind of need a manufacturer to know what you can and can't do to make the models better)
- We want you to have the information, but it's either proprietary (and we won't tell you about the prior failures we've had) or non-visual (because working on reducing parts count is a completely non-visual medium). Also, the relaunch is gonna be mega!
- We haven't given up, we have quotes out! As we have for over a year!
- Most backers have been supportive (I call bs, most backers have been apathetic, and public support is at best a fraction of public detractors). Just remember, the relaunch is gonna be mega!
Anyways, found out why Kevin's second Con beside GenCon is a small convention with a fractional attendance to Adepticon, PAX, Origins or DragonCon. Make Kevin a Guest of Honor, and he'll show.
And they're still promising to have four books done by the end of May. Good luck with that, I'm sure it'll happen. Especially with having to take next weekend off for the aforementioned convention.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stanman wrote: Promoting the KS: Totally not one of us.
Everything else: We can't wait to welcome him back to the fold!
When you're Uncle Kev the line changes based on if there's money at stake.
Especially as the PBWU lists yet another role Carmen does for them. Apparently he's the model caster for at least the Glitterboys, and I assume all of their Rift pewters.
I initially thought Carmen was someone relatively new to PB. I don't follow PB much beyond the Kickstarter.
Then I find Carmen, since 2003, is responsible for
- 8 books over three lines (including being principal for Splicers)
- Significant enough work on RRT to get two separate credits, including at least a heavy rewrite of the rules.
- Worked several conventions on PB's behalf (ie, more than just volunteer running PB games)
- Significant role in the FAQ/Alt-Rules group for RRT.
- And now, spincaster for Palladium's in-house miniatures.
How Kevin can pretend he's not an employee, I can't understand. Oh, he doesn't receive a regular paycheck? Apparently neither do Wayne or Alex when times are tough. Just seems like a distinction without a difference to me.
WOW!!! The posting have shot through the roof here. Well this very sick joke of RRTKS and its back to the same old same old. I know that PB and Kev is not doing anything on Robotech Tactics RPG but blow smoke are butts. Sometime I wonder if this whole thing with Carmen is real or not I don't know . I can't trust PB information as truth. Hell remember when Kev broke his arm , the car hit him around the time of the SWR KS. I don't know there a lot smoke , fire and mirror around this whole company of PB. I just wish it would end.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the only people that really WON were the lawyers. Boiled down to backers getting a whopping $21.55 each if I'm reading that correctly. Sorry if this has already been discussed in detail but I was actually puttering around more than usual as this latest nonsense from Uncle Kevin has right chapped my hide.
I used to want my money or my models. Now I want PB to burn. I want the Kevster to see his company fold like origami, and I want to have this whole thing end finally.
Has anyone thought of Kev's comments blaming specific backers for Carmen's actions something worthy of a libel suit against him? He DID say that people's actions directly lead to the outcome...
AFAIK, you'd have to be able to prove that what he wrote caused some sort of hardship to you, aside from hurt feelings. For example, if a potential employer read them and then said they wouldn't hire you because of them you would have grounds to sue.
Funny thing popped up on my Facebook this morning- "Memories from 4 years ago"- here was my post in response to the announcement of Ninja Division making the ruleset for Robotech Tactics:
Robotech RPG Tactics
Prepare for invasion! Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that brings the epic combat of Robotech to your tabletop. Take command of the fighting forces of the United Earth Defense Force valiantly defending Earth from alien annihilation, or lead the massive clone armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave mankind.
Robotech®RPG Tactics™ is designed in partnership with the makers of the popular Robotech®RPG, Palladium Books, and Ninja Division. Ninja Division brings together the design talents of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios, makers of Super Dungeon™ Explore, Relic Knights™, Helldorado™, and Anima Tactics™.
Ninja Division is developing an all new, streamlined rules system that allows you to relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home as a stand-alone game or to enhance your Robotech®RPG adventures. This fast-paced, action oriented system is being developed by lead designers: David Freeman designer of the popular Ultimate Fighting System CCG™ and developer on the Lord of the Rings TMG™; and renowned game designer Alessio Cavatore former designer of the Warhammer™ and Warhammer 40k™ systems by Games Workshop, designer of Kings of War™ by Mantic Games, and owner of River Horse Game Studio.
In addition, Ninja Division is bringing their years of miniature design and manufacturing experience to produce an expansive and dynamic range of plastic game pieces, sure to please fans of Robotech and serious collectors alike.
My reply:
I hope they do it justice, but a CCG designer and ex-GW rules developer (and we all know what they think about rules)? Ugh. Give me a crack at it. I don't think I could do any worse...
Last Weekend for Rifter® Super-Subscription Offer with FREE Gift worth $20.95 to $43.85
Wayne and I met with a manufacturing rep for three and a half hours just today.
Even with the frustrating, disappointing delays and setbacks with Wave Two rewards, most backers have been understanding and share with us constructive inquiries, suggestions and sincere communications that we take to heart. We thank you for such conduct and sincerely appreciate your support. Please look for future posts regarding the RRT relaunch program as information becomes available.
Where is he getting the "most backers are understanding" part from?
Even a poll on their own forum had the exact opposite result. The negative responses massively outweigh the positive in the Kickstarter comments and Palladiums forum (despite the "moderation").
How is he so ignorant of the world around him?
Also, in 20 years of logistics management I have never had a three and a half hour meeting with a rep.
I saw that also "most backers are understanding " is the same as "we plan to sale RTT box sets at Gen Con before shipping to backers " because the poll showed that a majority of backers didn't say anything and silence is approval.
He lives in his own world and nothing even bankruptcy will change him, it's just sad that we even gave him money, but I feel there was a bait and switch involved.
Joyboozer wrote: Where is he getting the "most backers are understanding" part from? Even a poll on their own forum had the exact opposite result. The negative responses massively outweigh the positive in the Kickstarter comments and Palladiums forum (despite the "moderation"). How is he so ignorant of the world around him?
To state the obvious, probably the same delusional view that led to the infamous 'Open House Informal Poll' that he concluded the vast majority of players were content if not happy with how things were. We all have our little social bubbles, but one only needs to look at their forums to see a place where anything but towing the party line is unacceptable, and that's for a space where it is commonly said by the Administrators that most PB staff don't read.
And the "Gencon sales poll" that Genoside07 mentioned. To Palladium, silence equals consent, which nicely fits their stated view that only a small handful of backers are actually unhappy with them; because not all 5,000+ are screaming constantly, clearly it's just a few dozen malcontents.
Alpharius wrote: I can't believe he's still using the 'reduce parts count/still getting quotes' lines (x) number of years on now.
With (x) being, what, 3+ years already?
If we assume that they freed up a lot of time once Wave One went from Design to Production, even if we account for some logistical work and whatnot they had to attend to, it's been at least 2'ish years. One can quibble on just how much time they spent having to micromanage aspects of delivery to them/to backers and whatnot (and we know that was a mess), but by the time they were into the new year for 2015 it was on their minds.
Here's a pertinent snippet from the update released January 13th, 2015;
Status of Wave Two Items
Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved.
Then there's the Feb 28th, 2015 update where they show off 5 sprue breakdown renders, and have this to say;
Chinese New Year was last week, but it’s a 2-3 week long holiday season in China, so there hasn't been much work being done on that end this month. They’re about to come back, though, so things will be picking up in March.
March, eh?
The only update in March was that they were still shipping to ROW backers, and that they were going to Adepticon.
And then the next update is in May... when they finally finish ROW shipping and... don't say gak about Wave Two other than to explicitly lay out what shipped in what wave for like the third time. I'm pretty sure 98% of this update is a copy paste of a copy paste, possibly making it the most Palladium Update Ever.
Then in late May, this quote is shared in an update;
Our focus for the next few months is going to be heavily on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We want to see RRT Wave Two released by the end of the year, but we have a number of other things coming sooner that we think will please our Robotech® Kickstarter backers and all our supporters very much. Things that are being made here in the US and will not take much time away from our energy to get Wave Two into your hands.
You see, they want wave two in our hands by the end of the year, but as we all know... foreshadowing.
Then in June we have The Giant History Of How Palladium Books Brought Anime To North America And Were Betrayed By Everyone, and also the Scale Poll Distraction, plus the great 'please buy our GHQ conventional forces minis, we'll totally get you the rules out soon! (over 1.5 years and counting, released by Mike to his page but never officially given to backers or the public that I'm aware of).
Heck, we’ve been looking at ways to try to reduce the number of pieces in RRT Wave Two, but that’s taking much longer than we hoped and is yielding minimal results.
Oh they really bite into it in earnest here!
End of year is the plan. If we can do it sooner, even better! But no promises. And might it be later? Maybe. We don’t know yet. When we have a much clearer idea for a release date we will post it!
~20 months and counting. Really burning the candle at both ends here, gents.
July brings us the reveal of product... that isn't for the backers! Pewter convention figures, wooo!
Edit; oh, July also brings us this amazing quote;
As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time.
Nearly 600 fething days and we still haven't seen this info.
Late August includes this choice quote;
Lack of physical items to show does not mean there isn’t progress being made. We spoke with our manufacturing rep a week before Gen Con, met with them at Gen Con, and will continue to speak and work with them to find favorable solutions to the piece count issues in the weeks ahead.
Then, aside from a revised Blast Rule and an end of year note from Kevin, they don't really say anything for the remaining third of the year. In hindsight, I'm guessing that discussion with their manufacturing rep didn't go very well.
Speaking of that note from Kevin;
Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let you know you are far from forgotten. Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are exploring don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, the things we are considering doing get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product are something special and the best they can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. We are examining many different possibilities, but until we nail down the final details, we can’t say much yet. We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out.
They went from showing off sprue breakdown renders and waxing poetic about their contributions to the world, to silence. Now that I'm kinda committed to putting this together, I get the feeling that something distinct happened in mid 2015. 23 Updates in 2015 (including a few whiffs like Wayne giving us a 'trailer to the trailer' heads up, and the double Mega Update), whereas 2016 had... 6.
Jan 29th 2016;
As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you.
In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis.
March/April; 3 updates to show off the SDF-1 figure prototypes they had made, the Armored Battloid, and all three modes of the YF-4.
As I mentioned to some of you at AdeptiCon, we recently got some tooling quotes for Wave Two, and we’re discussing specifics with the manufacturer. I’ll keep you updated when we know more.
Late July, we get this;
1. Wave Two Rewards – This is and will remain our first and primary objective with RRT. It has been painstakingly slower than what we ever expected. As mentioned before, we are seeking to make improvements on Wave Two rewards based on your input and what we have learned with Wave One. This includes reduced part count, reduction of seams and better sprue layouts. However, there are many Wave Two figures that have to be reevaluated and quoted by various manufacturers. They have to review each figure, devise ideal part reductions and mold compositions. This process takes considerable time, and is even longer when there is already a pipeline of projects to be quoted ahead of ours.
There are also new manufacturing possibilities that we have reviewed and are looking into or awaiting responses from, that may, hopefully, enable us to provide you with the improvements mentioned above. Again, obtaining quotes and unit breakdowns is part of the waiting process. Unfortunately, none of the waiting yields visual results that we can share at this time, until we know for certain that all of our ducks are lined up and in a row to go into the next phase of production and fulfillment.
...
In the immediate months after Gen Con we expect to be focusing a large amount of our efforts on moving Robotech RPG Tactics™ and Robotech® forward. Please understand, the fulfillment of Wave Two rewards is extremely important to us and we simply want to try our very best to provide the best game pieces and gaming experience that the RRT backers deserve.
And then in early September, the bombshell lands... that they're still doing the same thing.
Talking to manufacturers. We’re currently waiting on a quote from one manufacturer, and talking to another about the possibility of producing Wave Two. We’re determined to reduce the part count dramatically if at all possible, and that has been a focus of our search for the manufacturer who can create the highest quality product.
And then five fething months pass without an update. Literally. September 9th to February 3rd, 148 days, at which point they break from the norm and... tell us the same thing again.
I know it has taken a very long time to fulfill this Kickstarter, and for that I am very sorry. More sorry than some of you may be able to imagine. But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017. Not only that, but we want to make it amazing. Our Kickstarter backers and fans have waited so long for RRT Wave 2, that if we can make improvements we want to do so. We have been frustrated by many aspects of production that clash with what we know would make a superior product.
Let's look at that, one more time.
if we can make improvements we want to do so
No. Bad. Feth off. Stop chasing the perfect Platonic Ideal of a fething 2 inch tall Robotech mini and just deliver what you owe.
We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.
We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is. There have been times when we thought we had firm plans for moving forward, only to have something occur to change them – good or bad. Case in point, we had pretty much resigned ourselves to being unable to significantly lower the part count in the RRT game pieces.
Oh, okay then, we're on the same pa..
However, we are suddenly readdressing that as we explore new possibilities that have surfaced. In fact, I have spent most of the week on this very matter. We are working on all of this with the desire to bring you something great, not just crap it out to be done with it.
YOU JUST SAID YOU WERE GOING AHEAD AS THEY WERE, LITERALLY ONE SENTENCE AGO.
And then the recent clusterfeth happened.
Sorry that this became a small novel, but as I was going through I thought I might as well flesh out *why* so many backers are furious and jaded with their bullgak. Because this idiocy has been happening for literally years, plural.
Edit: also, this is just based on Updates. There's more repeated lies (in retrospect) in the weekly newsletters, but going through 30'ish Updates was bad enough, I'm not adding 100+ copy pastes from their obnoxious style of archiving those things into this mess as well.
Forar wrote: Then in June we have The Giant History Of How Palladium Books Brought Anime To North America And Were Betrayed By Everyone, and also the Scale Poll Distraction, plus the great 'please buy our GHQ conventional forces minis, we'll totally get you the rules out soon! (over 1.5 years and counting, released by Mike to his page but never officially given to backers or the public that I'm aware of).
Just to add on here, in the GHOHPBBATNAAWBBE Update, Part 2, there was also one more bit.
"The Invid could be coming soon to our RRT Backers."
Granted, they do say "if there's enough interest". But "most backers are supportive", right? When they say that costs are low, and can be made to order, surely that would have guaranteed production.
So, my question for Kevvie is, could you not get the arguably minimal support needed to put these out, or were you too lazy, or too incompetent (seemingly pissing all over your relationship with GHQ*) to get it done? It's hard to tell, given this was pretty much the first and last that's been mentioned of it.
* While I may be wrong, I believe the resin Miriya FPA was done elsewhere, but that the metal version was a recast by GHQ. Either way, it appears the relationship between GHQ and PB has been terminated. I wonder what betrayal (ie, not doing something for free) GHQ did to join the long list of companies and freelancers who have broken ties with Palladium.
Admittedly, releasing Invid might have caused some disgruntlement from the backer base. But it arguably would have been good for the game overall. One of the things that this delay is doing is not putting new product out there. New releases are necessary for the longevity of a tabletop miniatures game. It's a rare game that can go years without a new release.
Just another, in a long list of examples, of expectations raised, and failed to be met.
Joyboozer wrote: Where is he getting the "most backers are understanding" part from?
Even a poll on their own forum had the exact opposite result. The negative responses massively outweigh the positive in the Kickstarter comments and Palladiums forum (despite the "moderation").
How is he so ignorant of the world around him?
Also, in 20 years of logistics management I have never had a three and a half hour meeting with a rep.
Yes, but in those 20 years, have you ever had to get a rep to accept payment other than cash/check/credit?
Kevin: Everything looks good except that price. Is that the best price you can give us?
Rep: I've already factored in a discount for volume and a price break for fitting you in whenever we have space in our production schedule.
Kevin: Well, uh. . . I don't have that much actual money. Would you accept it in some unused stock of Rifts/Rifters/RRT starters? What if I signed them? That's gotta be worth something!
Rep: Uh no. . .
Kevin: Come on. You gotta work with me here? Howabout some unique art or old action figures?
Edit: also, this is just based on Updates. There's more repeated lies (in retrospect) in the weekly newsletters, but going through 30'ish Updates was bad enough, I'm not adding 100+ copy pastes from their obnoxious style of archiving those things into this mess as well.
Have you actually put this in a complaint to Kickstarter? It's not like they'll actually give a feth, but at least you've got a lot all spelled out here as to Kevin's "progress".
Edit: also, this is just based on Updates. There's more repeated lies (in retrospect) in the weekly newsletters, but going through 30'ish Updates was bad enough, I'm not adding 100+ copy pastes from their obnoxious style of archiving those things into this mess as well.
Have you actually put this in a complaint to Kickstarter? It's not like they'll actually give a feth, but at least you've got a lot all spelled out here as to Kevin's "progress".
Agreed!
I'd LOVE to see Kickstarter's response to that - if they even gave you one, of course.
Just edit out the swears and any of the overly....aggressive parts, and that would be a pretty damning document - and all if it Palladium's own words too.
Fair enough, emailed Kickstarter the following amended breakdown of this mess. If someone would like to personalize it and do the same, or use it elsewhere, please do so with my blessing.
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I (and 5,341 other Backers) contributed to the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter in May 2013. Since then, Palladium books delivered on a portion of what they stated they would be providing in return for our financial assistance, after reassuring the backers repeatedly that the project would deliver in full in 2013. In January 2014 (Update #128) they abruptly changed their goals from delivery in full within the quarter, to delivering in two waves, the first to arrive in "May/June 2014", and the second to ship in the fall of 2014. Wave One did not begin shipping until October 2014, and many backers outside of North America didn't receive their boxes until mid 2015. Wave 2 has not shipped and currently has no end in sight. Wave One contained roughly 1/3 of the different figures in the product line, meaning 2/3's are still outstanding. Imagine playing chess with only pawns and knights, to get a sense for how frustrating this is for those who were excited about the project.
It has been at least two years since substantial progress was seen.
Here's a pertinent quote from the update released January 13th, 2015 (I have bolded quotes from Palladium updates to make it clearer when I'm quoting them verbatim);
"Status of Wave Two Items
Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved."
In the Feb 28th, 2015 update they show off 5 sprue breakdown renders, and have this to say;
"Chinese New Year was last week, but it’s a 2-3 week long holiday season in China, so there hasn't been much work being done on that end this month. They’re about to come back, though, so things will be picking up in March."
The only update in March was that they were still shipping to "ROW" (Rest Of the World) backers.
And then the next update is in May, when they finally finish ROW shipping and don't say anything about Wave Two other than to explicitly lay out what shipped in what wave.
"Our focus for the next few months is going to be heavily on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We want to see RRT Wave Two released by the end of the year, but we have a number of other things coming sooner that we think will please our Robotech® Kickstarter backers and all our supporters very much. Things that are being made here in the US and will not take much time away from our energy to get Wave Two into your hands."
June 2015 was a very busy month, as they released a pair of massive updates to bring the backers up to speed, had an unnecessary discussion regarding scale for future (non-campaign) releases, offered up more figures made in conjunction with another company, and promising to share rules for those figures 1.5 years ago, also never released officially, though their creator shared them on his own Facebook group unofficially. While this might not be pertinent directly to the campaign, it is offered as yet another example of the company failing to live up to even simple promises to share someone else's work with the community.
"Heck, we’ve been looking at ways to try to reduce the number of pieces in RRT Wave Two, but that’s taking much longer than we hoped and is yielding minimal results."
"End of year is the plan. If we can do it sooner, even better! But no promises. And might it be later? Maybe. We don’t know yet. When we have a much clearer idea for a release date we will post it!"
July 2015 brings us the reveal of Pewter convention exclusive figures, and a promise for concise information about every remaining item (a little under three dozen elements between plastic and resin game pieces)
"As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time."
It has been nearly 600 days and we still haven't seen this info.
In late August 2015 they shared this in an update;
"Lack of physical items to show does not mean there isn’t progress being made. We spoke with our manufacturing rep a week before Gen Con, met with them at Gen Con, and will continue to speak and work with them to find favorable solutions to the piece count issues in the weeks ahead."
Then, aside from a revised Blast Rule and an end of year note from Kevin, they don't say anything for the remaining third of the year.
Speaking of that note from Kevin;
"Hi, everyone. I just wanted to let you know you are far from forgotten. Things are moving on Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two, as we explore a number of different possibilities. For a variety of business reasons we cannot yet discuss or reveal exactly what we are looking into and considering. For one, if some of the things we are exploring don’t pan out, we don’t want you to be disappointed. And it seems like every little while, the things we are considering doing get changed for one reason or another.
I can tell you, we want to make sure the rest of the Kickstarter items and future Robotech® RPG Tactics™ product are something special and the best they can be, especially after the long delays in getting Wave Two into your hands. We are examining many different possibilities, but until we nail down the final details, we can’t say much yet. We’ll try to provide some more insight on this next week. But we are exploring many things we know you will enjoy. This includes a number of ideas for the relaunch of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ next year when Wave Two comes out."
Jan 29th 2016;
"As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
"In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis."
March/April; 3 updates to show off 5 figure prototypes they had made;
"As I mentioned to some of you at AdeptiCon, we recently got some tooling quotes for Wave Two, and we’re discussing specifics with the manufacturer. I’ll keep you updated when we know more."
Then in late July, we get this;
"1. Wave Two Rewards – This is and will remain our first and primary objective with RRT. It has been painstakingly slower than what we ever expected. As mentioned before, we are seeking to make improvements on Wave Two rewards based on your input and what we have learned with Wave One. This includes reduced part count, reduction of seams and better sprue layouts. However, there are many Wave Two figures that have to be reevaluated and quoted by various manufacturers. They have to review each figure, devise ideal part reductions and mold compositions. This process takes considerable time, and is even longer when there is already a pipeline of projects to be quoted ahead of ours.
There are also new manufacturing possibilities that we have reviewed and are looking into or awaiting responses from, that may, hopefully, enable us to provide you with the improvements mentioned above. Again, obtaining quotes and unit breakdowns is part of the waiting process. Unfortunately, none of the waiting yields visual results that we can share at this time, until we know for certain that all of our ducks are lined up and in a row to go into the next phase of production and fulfillment.
...
In the immediate months after Gen Con we expect to be focusing a large amount of our efforts on moving Robotech RPG Tactics™ and Robotech® forward. Please understand, the fulfillment of Wave Two rewards is extremely important to us and we simply want to try our very best to provide the best game pieces and gaming experience that the RRT backers deserve."
And then in early September;
"Talking to manufacturers. We’re currently waiting on a quote from one manufacturer, and talking to another about the possibility of producing Wave Two. We’re determined to reduce the part count dramatically if at all possible, and that has been a focus of our search for the manufacturer who can create the highest quality product."
And then five months pass without an update; September 9th to February 3rd, 148 days with zero information, though their weekly Newsletters on their own site continue to reassure backers and non-backers alike that work is underway, that things are 'heating up', etc.
Their silence finally breaks to share this with the backers;
"I know it has taken a very long time to fulfill this Kickstarter, and for that I am very sorry. More sorry than some of you may be able to imagine. But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017. Not only that, but we want to make it amazing. Our Kickstarter backers and fans have waited so long for RRT Wave 2, that if we can make improvements we want to do so. We have been frustrated by many aspects of production that clash with what we know would make a superior product."
"We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017."
"We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is. There have been times when we thought we had firm plans for moving forward, only to have something occur to change them – good or bad. Case in point, we had pretty much resigned ourselves to being unable to significantly lower the part count in the RRT game pieces."
My apologies for the small novel here, but I feel that context is important as to why the backer base is so frustrated and the tone of the comment section is so hostile and toxic. It is not offered as an excuse for why things have gotten so much worse of late, but as an explanation for why so many people are fed up with this project. Most backers I've talked to understand that delays happen, but what I have shared here shows a pattern wherein the Creator Palladium Books has been saying variations on the same thing for literally over two years, with no end in sight.
I know that several backers of this project have reached out to the Kickstarter team seeking support. We are aware that Kickstarter cannot force Palladium to provide refunds, but part of the frustration shared is that this never ending series of statements alluding to how hard they are allegedly working is used as a shield against criticism.
Frankly speaking, they managed to produce roughly 1/3 of the figures owed to the backers in about half a year, so more than two years without any sense of significant progress brings into question just how long this charade can go on for.
If nothing else, I wish to ask of Kickstarter at what point does the "we're totally working on it" excuse lose credibility? How many years can a project go without more than token effort being put in and shared?
Kickstarter's own Terms of Use say this;
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
* they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
* they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
* they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
* they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
* they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
With this pattern of behaviour shared, the Creator does not seem to have any interest in meeting the dates they set for themselves, having stated in no uncertain terms that this project would deliver in full in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and now 2017, but haven't provided evidence of substantial progress since 2014. They have refused any refunds, and aside from vague reassurances that grow thin as the years go by, I lack any faith that they have been working 'diligently and in good faith', that they've 'made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised', or that they've been honest about their progress and efforts to resolve this matter.
If you require any further information or wish for a more detailed breakdown of this issue, please let me know, and I will be happy to provide it.
It is funny you say that.. but the "Corporation" I used to work for required "Credit Checks" on all customers
Some big name companies had very poor credit ratings and was rumored to be put on a "cash only/pay upfront"
payment system.
I am sure if the company I worked for did it.. It would be smart Chinese model makers do it... looking even at
Palladium games public rating like BBB is a "F".. I am sure their credit rating is no better.. Could you take
payment in "Rifters"?? goes only so far...
That is why KS only printed up 150 Rifts Savage world play cards before Gen Con.. because that is all they could afford..
That is the big reason I feel we would never see a refund.. the money is not there... Long gone... spent on things
that didn't matter..
In a lot of ways that is why Palladium and Kevin in particular are putting so much effort and store into the Rifts BG KS. I can well imagine that they wanted updates and progress reports every day - a shade hypocritical given RTT - and were liley applying a lot of indirect pressure to deliver.
Look at a lot of kevin's upbeat posts he is always talking about licensing deals, film rights etc. While there may be a small kernel of truth in this, really speaking you sort of see that he has little business sense as such and is desperately hoping for the magic bean that will miraculously grow into a giant beanstalk.
Till it does there is no money, for production let alone delivery.
there was a chance for RTT in that first year after what was a very successful KS, however the subsequent mismangement - mostly to be laid directly at Kevin's door - has killed this IP stone dead as regards miniature gaming
Well I think wave 2 will be a no show 2017. The books for Robotech RPG and Robotech Tactics RPG maybe in 2018 or 2019. Oh BTW did anyone here talk to Carmen to see how he doing I don't trust Kevin.
DEZOAT wrote: Well I think wave 2 will be a no show 2017. The books for Robotech RPG and Robotech Tactics RPG maybe in 2018 or 2019. Oh BTW did anyone here talk to Carmen to see how he doing I don't trust Kevin.
A guy on the PB forums is gathering well wishes to pass onto his family/Carmen. Until he explicitly shows up somewhere to chat, it's probably not a good idea for anyone (especially backers) to try to get directly in contact with him, even to express empathy and support.
Unless someone was already a friend or at least a regular acquaintance, let's give him space and wait for him to talk to people in his own time.
Just throwing that out there. This gakshow kicked off less than a week and a half ago.
wilycoyote wrote: there was a chance for RTT in that first year after what was a very successful KS, however the subsequent mismangement - mostly to be laid directly at Kevin's door - has killed this IP stone dead as regards miniature gaming
Definitely an angle a lot of people (especially backers who are into minis wargames) have been pushing; these things are time sensitive. Unlike RPG players, a mini wargame generally isn't going to be very successful with new releases ever 3+ years. Not everyone has to be X-Wing or a Games Workshop tier behemoth, but a new expansion per quarter or two at the least to keep things interesting, keep people coming back to shop, to expand their collections, and keep the money flowing, are all important aspects (and obviously not an exhaustive list). If wave 2 had happened in 2015, I could see some eyerolling, but probably not a fatal blow. If it happens in 2018 (and the usual caveat applies; few people here actually think it will ever deliver, notice the word "if" there), what good will it actually do?
Their talk of a 'relaunch' tacitly admits that the initial launch stalled out. Actually landing the rest of the product line *might* breathe new life into things, but with all the bad blood out there, this has gone from a driving force worth 7 figures in sales at the Kickstarter, to an obligation with presumably little demand at retail.
Making 1,000 Monsters (for example) for the Backers probably isn't a very efficient breakpoint for production, so the hope is to make 5,000 or 10,000 or however many, and sell those at retail. But if the likelihood of actually selling even a small fraction of those is negligible, they potentially end up worse off than they started; out all the money to get the models made and shipped, and now the warehouse is full of product they struggle to sell, pay taxes on (apparently, this aspect remains weird to me), and what, stuff grab bags with?
It's a lose/lose scenario without a rebirth of the line, but that's a gamble on a gamble.
From their perspective, why bother? And from our perspective, why should be reassure them or provide a figurative carrot? They stopped sharing info all on their own accord, no amount of polite requests does anything, so our only remaining tool to express our discontent is negative word of mouth.
Which brings us back to the toxicity of the backer community for this gakshow.
Hey forar I was in wonder if anyone was his friend here I just don't trust anything coming from Kevin . I to would give Carmen a lot of space for as long as take. Oh BTW did see the Monster on shapeway oh I so so tempted man. I know that longer PB drag this out the cost of wave 2 will keep go up each year or more. They really mess this KS really really BAD.
Rogue Heroes Studio wrote:Hello Everyone
I wanted to post today to say thank you all for the outpouring of well wishes, prayers and words of encouragement, both in private messages and here on the page. I will not go into the reason for my hospital stay; I think most of you know the reason anyway. I just wanted to let you all know that I am out of the hospital and that I am in the process of getting better. The meds help, as does having my family, friends and all of you seeing me through my recovery. While I am recovering, my team and I are continuing to push forward on the Rifts Board Game. It’s always been a dream of mine to create a board game set in the exciting world of Rifts, with awesome miniatures and cool gameplay. I will not let this personal setback endanger that dream and I plan to make the Rifts Board Game the best game I can. There is so much in Rifts that I want to bring to the table top, to be able to see, feel, touch and move around minis of Glitter Boys, Juicers, Cyber-Knights, Ley Line Walkers, Coalition soldiers, etc…I am so excited about it all, I have to pace myself to make it the very best board game possible. Thank you all for listening to my ramblings and I will continue to work hard to make this vision of Rifts possible.
Thank you again
Carmen
Hopefully he has someone he trusts to handle the KS itself, but it's his business and his life, so if they go ahead with the campaign, that's their prerogative, and I won't be that donkey cave who judges someone for how they choose to recover.
We can certainly have concerns as to whether or not it's a good idea, but to head off what I can only assume will be at least some of the responses, how about we stay away from 'omg he's going to actually kill himself if he does this' kinds of asshattery?
We can throw shade aplenty at Kevin, and I'm not saying Carmen's beyond critique or verboten somehow, just... let's try not to be complete donkey caves about this, shall we? Gentlemen's agreement?
All of this Carmen stuff is via Kevin's RRT Kickstarter Updates, without any 3rd party corroboration. For all I know, Kevin & Carmen made the entire thing up to get Forar, Asterios, et al banned on Kickstarter prior to the KS launch, preventing them from trolling the Rifts BG KS when it finally goes live.
Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...
JohnHwangDD wrote: All of this Carmen stuff is via Kevin's RRT Kickstarter Updates, without any 3rd party corroboration. For all I know, Kevin & Carmen made the entire thing up to get Forar, Asterios, et al banned on Kickstarter prior to the KS launch, preventing them from trolling the Rifts BG KS when it finally goes live.
Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...
Just sayin'
Yeah, I'm doubtful on that one.
If that were the plan, they would've let it run for longer than a few hours of back and forth, across a half day period. Run it for at least a couple of days, maybe a week, let everyone get good and frothed up, keep things heated but give us enough rope to hang ourselves before pulling the plug.
As a 'false flag' operation, it was too brief and escalated too quickly for it to be much good.
And yes, of course, "but if PB was doing it of course it was done wrong, hur hur hur", and someone is contractually obligated to point out.
If we're going to assume bad faith, we should look at what they've achieved.
A couple of time outs that will end before their next campaign concludes (assuming it goes ahead on a similar timeframe) doesn't even achieve that. At best, they may have garnered some attention and perhaps contributions based on empathy for someone struggling.
But as far as tactical gambits go, I think riling up a couple thousand people is not a good play. They probably would've come out ahead if they just let this all remain settled down to the same simmer it has been at for years now.
And anyone that says "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is just so very wrong.
Boy I am heading off arguments left and right today.
Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...
I'm trying to remember a quote that goes something like "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence"
Granted after blowing 1.4mil maybe trying to save his own skin has made Kev a little smarter.
I'm pretty sure Kevin believes his own narrative. Even if he doesn't have the money, his IP is valuable and the right buyer will swoop in and he'll be able to finish(*)!
Well, I'm going to get shouted down for attempted murder most likely.
Honestly, the suicide attempt actually adds to the unreliability and shakiness of the whole thing, and if they go ahead with with it I will still be there with my $1 to make sure anyone not in the know is going to know.
While I can't really say they planned this, they strike me as the type to try to take advantage of it.
Merijeek wrote: However, anyone stopping by the new Kickstarter to point out the "success" RRT will immediately be shouted down for attempted murder.
IMO, it's a huge risk that the person responsible for the Rifts BG KS is bipolar and won't stay on their meds. It's fully documented in the RRTKS, further in the PBWU. I think any potential backer needs to be aware of that, and it may well need to be part of the official Risks.
The other obvious risk to the Rifts BG KS is Carmen actually committing suicide for whatever reason. What happens at that point? I think the KS needs to address this as well.
Merijeek wrote: However, anyone stopping by the new Kickstarter to point out the "success" RRT will immediately be shouted down for attempted murder.
IMO, it's a huge risk that the person responsible for the Rifts BG KS is bipolar and won't stay on their meds. It's fully documented in the RRTKS, further in the PBWU. I think any potential backer needs to be aware of that, and it may well need to be part of the official Risks.
The other obvious risk to the Rifts BG KS is Carmen actually committing suicide for whatever reason. What happens at that point? I think the KS needs to address this as well.
It's a far larger risk that the person running the Rifts BG KS apparently thinks backers have no legal avenues with which to pursue any action from AGs or class-action lawsuits against PB and that as long as PB keeps churning out worthless updates, backers can't touch PB and only Carmen can save RRT. Basically, not an attitude I want to hear coming from a potential KS creator about how backers are powerless.
The only time anyone will be to hold Rogue Heroes accountable is during the campaign. Palladium has proven you can run silent and run deep for years and that you can reiterate the same update as many times as you feel like it without any heat from Kickstarter. People should be asking questions like, "What is the absolute latest date before refunds will be issued? No excuses, no backpedaling, an iron clad date that if there's no game we get refunds." Something that can be pointed to as legally binding should the project fail to produce, given the track record of RRT this would only make sense. Course you won't get an answer like that. Any request to enter a legally binding contract as an investor in Rogue Heroes will be ignored or brushed off that Kickstarter will do it's due diligence which we've seen is nothing.
Did the Defiance Games backers ever get any sort of compensation or did Kickstarter shrug its shoulders and tell them to get lost as well?
TwoGunBob wrote: The only time anyone will be to hold Rogue Heroes accountable is during the campaign. Palladium has proven you can run silent and run deep for years and that you can reiterate to same update as many times as you feel like it without and heat from Kickstarter.
Stated extremely well. To be remembered and regurgitated when the time comes.
Glad I took the weekend off to stay out of things.
You guys were busy!
@Forar: You seem to be the great historian of RRT, the well thought out presentation of facts are invaluable when faced with people who would like to rewrite history. Thanks.
I could say all manner of comments to Kevin's notes on his weekly update but I will keep it short: I threw up a little.
To so confidently describe what went on inside a person's head who was "insane" enough to try to end their life: he has no clue and should not even pretend to know.
Turning it into a rallying point for creative people to be strong against the naysayers: it all becomes about him in the end.
The sense of entitlement to using other's money to fulfill those dreams without regard to at least the social contract that entails is more selfish than his words try to convey.
I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.
The body can heal at a set rate but the mind?
I honestly think further exposure to Kevin is not going to help with that process.
I am glad he was able to drop a note for people however, I think it is important he speak for himself rather than let others run off with it.
This project certainly has gone down the rabbit hole a fair bit hasn't it?
I can certainly empathize with those who observe that it was "worth it for the entertainment value": it is like a very bad soap opera.
I've seen some people calling for Kevin to refund Carmen his license fee which on the surface seems like a good idea but the greater issue is that Carmen has already fully invested himself into sculpting the miniatures and the game artwork. Those things do not come cheaply and since they've been paid for in advance would be a significant loss to simply write off by cancelling the project. He's trapped in a no win situation where he's already committed everything to. I can easily understand why he'd be terrified of things tanking due to the negativity that RRT and anything PB related has generated but at the same time the backlash from the backers is very justified and given how long he's been involved with Palladium he certainly should be well aware of the environment that PB has fostered and cultured.
JohnHwangDD wrote: All of this Carmen stuff is via Kevin's RRT Kickstarter Updates, without any 3rd party corroboration. For all I know, Kevin & Carmen made the entire thing up to get Forar, Asterios, et al banned on Kickstarter prior to the KS launch, preventing them from trolling the Rifts BG KS when it finally goes live.
Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...
Just sayin'
doubt they were out to get me, since I was never a part of the pledge money to the RBG and watch it burn crowd. furthermore as to why I was banned, that is still a mystery, I sent them a message asking why I was banned and no response yet.
stanman wrote: I've seen some people calling for Kevin to refund Carmen his license fee which on the surface seems like a good idea but the greater issue is that Carmen has already fully invested himself into sculpting the miniatures and the game artwork. Those things do not come cheaply and since they've been paid for in advance would be a significant loss to simply write off by cancelling the project. He's trapped in a no win situation where he's already committed everything to. I can easily understand why he'd be terrified of things tanking due to the negativity that RRT and anything PB related has generated but at the same time the backlash from the backers is very justified and given how long he's been involved with Palladium he certainly should be well aware of the environment that PB has fostered and cultured.
I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.
Talizvar wrote: I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.
Just regarding this point, it was stated by Carmen, over on the PB Forums, I believe, that the reason it has to be done soon, is because of a fairly strict timeline that Kevin has put forward. I initially assumed that was more to dissuade the "Wait until after Wave 2" proponents, but I wouldn't put it past Kevin to have some kind of bulldrek clause that sees the licensing fee forfeit after a certain point if a product hasn't been made. Yes, I appreciate the irony of Kevin holding someone else to a contractual timeline.
There's also the issue of him having a fair amount of money tied up in development. If it'd been general savings, that'd be one thing, but if he's taken out loans or a second mortgage or something, or even if it's just the people he got to work on the sculpts etc are owed, that might mean having to hurry things along to get the cashflow needed to relieve some financial stresses.
Asterios wrote: I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.
While I agree that he would be better doing his own IP, Carmen has been putting money into the project for at least two years. The feedback he's gotten via the PB forums is much too late in the game to have any impact as he's already tied himself to that rock a long time ago and there's no turning back unless he wants to scrap thousands of dollars worth of sculpting and start over from scratch. It's something that should have been considered more heavily at the beginning of the project rather than half way to launch, but hindsight is 20/20.
He's a fan of Rifts and saw value in using it as he believed that he could reach a larger audience with it, which in a normal situation isn't a bad move. But given how badly they've handled RRT it's poisoned the well considerably. Savage Worlds proved that you can still have a successful KS with a PB related IP, but the key difference is that they have an established track record and are known to be a truly independent company outside of PB, where Carmen is an unknown that for all purposes looks like an in house employee/arm of PB so he'd have to work much harder to win trust from people. Not impossible, but likely far more work than he'd anticipated and once his fan friend bubble had burst he was looking at some very harsh realities.
Talizvar wrote: I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.
Just regarding this point, it was stated by Carmen, over on the PB Forums, I believe, that the reason it has to be done soon, is because of a fairly strict timeline that Kevin has put forward. I initially assumed that was more to dissuade the "Wait until after Wave 2" proponents, but I wouldn't put it past Kevin to have some kind of bulldrek clause that sees the licensing fee forfeit after a certain point if a product hasn't been made. Yes, I appreciate the irony of Kevin holding someone else to a contractual timeline.
he most likely bought the IP license for a set time like a year, with Kevin to decide what to do in a years time, I hope this is not the case cause if so, then Kevin can really screw over Carmen.
Asterios wrote: I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.
While I agree that he would be better doing his own IP, Carmen has been putting money into the project for at least two years. The feedback he's gotten via the PB forums is much too late in the game to have any impact as he's already tied himself to that rock a long time ago and there's no turning back unless he wants to scrap thousands of dollars worth of sculpting and start over from scratch. It's something that should have been considered more heavily at the beginning of the project rather than half way to launch, but hindsight is 20/20.
He's a fan of Rifts and saw value in using it as he believed that he could reach a larger audience with it, which in a normal situation isn't a bad move. But given how badly they've handled RRT it's poisoned the well considerably. Savage Worlds proved that you can still have a successful KS with a PB related IP, but the key difference is that they have an established track record and are known to be a truly independent company outside of PB, where Carmen is an unknown that for all purposes looks like an in house employee/arm of PB so he'd have to work much harder to win trust from people. Not impossible, but likely far more work than he'd anticipated and once his fan friend bubble had burst he was looking at some very harsh realities.
like you said, he is a new company, that's marks against him, his only known work in gaming is all Palladium Product, and he lives near their offices, another mark against him, but alas Kevin placed the biggest mark against any successful kickstarter for this game, and no its not RRT, its Kevin's announcement of Carmen's attempted Suicide, that attempted suicide will deter a lot of people from pledging in fear of not seeing anything. also it will cause people to question Carmen's mental state because of it. Kevin destroyed Carmen and was the figurative straw too.
Exactly, Kevin has made Carmen appear far too overworked and stressed and he is at the pre-kickstarter phase. The real work hasn't even started yet and it already seems like Unca Kev is poised, licking his hungry chops, to push Carmen out of the way at the drop of a hat to relieve Carmen of this burden and take over. That's the personal fear I have, that Carmen will be pushed aside so Unca Kev can 'save him from the stress because we don't want another incident'.
I think a lot of boardgame backers will be upset come 2018 when they find board game AND RRT updates in the same paragraph with meaningless "we're working on it honest!" as the awesome updates.
Just to be the devil's advocate for a moment and take a step back to look at what Carmen/Rogue Studios have said about RBg and what might be needed.
From their facebook page the core set will be rules, tokens, reversible map tiles and 32 miniatures or which some will be the same - basic troopers?. These miniatures are to be preassembled, one piece models, but no definate on material but probably softer boardgame plastic.
Now this does seem to me to be a simpler , more doabe prospect thatn what ND/Palladium put forward for RTT and I am suggesting is relatively acheivable with good management- of my recent KS's I look at the delivery from Emergent games on Fireteam Zero which was their first KS.
Therefore even as a first project, I think that if they are allowed to work on this themselves they will deliver and do so within a reasonable timescale.
Success and stretch goals will create their own issues but should not be that difficult to solve , as long as their eye is on the ball and given this will be their only project why should it be elsewhere?
Okay, we can all see the flaw and the big white elephant sitting in the room. I just cannot see Kevin just letting go of his favourite IP, standing aside and letting them get on with it. He is going to be itching to be involved (make that interfere) and get his name in design lights somewhere on this product.
I was not going to back it anyway - the IP and another generic guys on maps game does not appeal - but for now I am also as sure that I do not want to trash something straightaway, because of my contempt for Kevin and Palladium
Kevin couldn't refund Carmen if he wanted to, as Kevin has already allocated the funds to next month's rent (Or convention travel, seeing the list he's supposed to be attending).
@TwoGunBob
KS did nothing about Defiance Games and made it clear it was an issue between backers and Tony. After all, KS had already got their cut...Tony declaring bankruptcy wasn't going to affect them. In the end, backers got nothing - Tony even "pulled" an offer to give the backers .STL files for self-printing because somebody supposedly announced the possible offer on the KS page.
That campaign, Prodos AVP and this one has made it a guarantee I will never back another KS, as it has proven that once things go south, you have no power to hold either KS or the creator responsible. I'll just wait until the actual product gets to retail, thanks very much.
After I was dropped from my work on the Robotech project I said that anything happening under Kevin's control didn't look good and the game would crash and burn because of it. I called this outcome well before ND had even signed on. People didn't want to believe me at the time and said I was carrying on over sour grapes. They likewise cut ND out of the fold and now they are stuck in a mire with no way out, color me surprised.
It sucks to see that people are out money, but I tried to warn people. ::Shrug::
paulson games wrote: After I was dropped from my work on the Robotech project I said that anything happening under Kevin's control didn't look good and the game would crash and burn because of it. I called this outcome well before ND had even signed on. People didn't want to believe me at the time and said I was carrying on over sour grapes. They likewise cut ND out of the fold and now they are stuck in a mire with no way out, color me surprised.
It sucks to see that people are out money, but I tried to warn people. ::Shrug::
Yeah, Paulson was right. I withhold for a long time because I thought they gave you a raw deal. I should have stuck to my convictions but I had wanted a Robotech game for so long, although not as much as Paulson Games. You saw the dream start coming to fruition and then Kevin... I assume a lot of what went down but you were/are under a NDA regarding it, right?
Yes Kevin makes sure he covers all of his dealings with a NDA whenever possible. While it doesn't offer PB complete protection from bad press or their "master plans" from being revealed it does make it more difficult as there's constraints on what can be said publicly. Production numbers and specifics can't be addressed, but I can still discuss aspects of it that I had no involvement in such as anything that happened after I was dropped (and ND took over) my personal opinion is also fair game to post about.
So I can't quote Kevin directly on stuff we talked about, I can say that I disagreed with a lot of his ideas and thought that he seemed rather bi polar based our conversations. There were very obvious red flags as to where difficulties would pop up in a business partnership and also it was very clear he had no understanding of the miniatures industry. I wanted very badly to help make Robotech into something great like it deserved to be, however that has to happen within a reasonable set of conditions which were not being catered to by PB. Reasonable people all seem to walk away from PB (or are driven away), if you spend any significant time dealing with Kevin in person you'll quickly realize there's a strong reason for that.
I'd still like to see Robotech thrive as a game, however that's not going to be possible while it's under Palladium's thumb. HG doesn't seem to have any interest in allowing anyone else access to those rights so the only thing I (or anyone else) can do is keep watching the train wreck from the sidelines.
Kind of what I thought. I had my righteous indignation all fired up when you were tossed out and then I allowed it to be chipped away by that gnawing want. You designed it up and really made it happen and honestly I think it would have gone the distance with you but alas. I think you were right about the popularity, robbed when you were ousted from the project, and then right again that Kevin would muck it up.
I think the game still had a shot while ND was onboard, once that dissolved it was the final nail. I wasn't around at that point so I don't know the inner dealings on that but I've spoken at length several times with John at ND and I feel like I've gotten a good feel for who he is and what he's about and I don't get the sense that the failure was on their end. ND has had some their own issues stemming from being new and growing rapidly, but so far when it's left up to John's direction they've gotten all of their games into production and they've done well. ND knows their market very well and does a bang up job on their minis, which PB is pretty much the exact opposite of.
Had I been completely un-involved I likely would have backed the KS as it did look good especially being flagshipped by Ninja DIvision. But my personal dealings with Kevin and PB gave me a different insight and I didn't trust that Kevin would keep his hands off things. ND had some solid looking renders and models, but even with the best of those the game falls apart without somebody promoting it and organized play which PB is absolutely clueless on. Unfortunately things fell apart before they could get that in place, much less a finished game.
I honestly get the impression that Ninja Division, while being far from saints themselves would have been more honest and upfront about every single aspect of the delays involved in this kickstarter.
Even if it had dragged out this long under their care I would still hold more hope that it would eventually see fullfillment than I do now.
At least the Ninjas actually have an interest in their own product.
I hate to say Ninja Division has done the best thing they could: say as little as possible of the product as soon as it was no longer contractually theirs. There really in no winning morally or in the eyes of the public. As angry customers of the project we will grasp at any group that appears to care, like a drowning man. Kevin keeps taunting us with a life preserver made of rock.
I agree that ND was right to just stay quiet. As much as Palladium waffles around in their updates they've stuck to whatever contractual obligations they have with ND as neither company has lashed out venomously at the other. Besides fairly obvious who blundered as one company has gone on to produce other successful kickstarters while the other is desperately trying to huckster Rifter subscriptions for a couple bucks to keep the lights on.
I'd completely forgotten about Prodos. They burned their bridge with me on Warzone, though. Can't remember what flippant comments they made about those of us playing the older editions but it was enough to make me vow never to back anything they were involved in. Guess I was lucky in at least one regard.
Now I'm going to have to go research back to figure out how/when Prodos pissed me off.
Kickstarter Replied, and I Replied to the Reply (Replyception).
Spoilered for those who don't care. Spoiler: they aren't very interested in doing much about it.
Spoiler:
A Kickstarter Service Rep wrote:Hi Forar
Here at Kickstarter, we expect creators to fulfill rewards, offer refunds if they’re unable to complete their project, and communicate with backers at every step along the way. While Kickstarter is the platform for this agreement, we are not a part of it. We do not investigate a project creator’s ability to complete their project, nor do we facilitate refunds or the fulfillment of rewards. While in most cases you’ll find that rewards are delivered as promised, it’s also important to realize that some projects might not fulfill as planned.
When you back a project on Kickstarter you enter into an agreement with the project creator, as described in our Terms of Use: https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
These terms outline the responsibilities of backers and creators. This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn’t fulfill their obligations under the agreement. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I hope that this helps to address your concerns, but please don’t hesitate to let us know if you have any other questions.
To which I replied;
Forar wrote:Hello *KSCS Rep*,
Thank you for taking time to respond.
I think the crux of the issue is the disconnect between Creators being expected to deliver (or make good as best they can, or explain what went awry, as described in that ToU), and the notion that as long as they're releasing updates (even if they have nothing to do with the project) and an annual tidbit (a tiny piece of substantial progress, as shown in Feb 2015, and March/April 2016) they can be considered "working on the project" forever.
The first round of figures went from Design to Production in half a year. It has been two years (realistically more like 2.5) since we saw more than token progress.
I'm not expecting Kickstarter to step in directly on the matter, I'm aware of the 'hands off' stance that exists once a campaign has concluded, but those very Terms of Use (as I quoted) don't mean much if a Creator can flagrantly trickle out a baby step here and there for years.
I mean, this quote; "creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life."; can you honestly say from the (admittedly lengthy) series of update portions I shared that it seems as though the creator is showing a High Standard of Effort, showing Honest Communication, or anything remotely resembling Dedication?
Because from my end it looks like they took about $1.5 million dollars from backers (the project took in $1.45m, minus Kickstarter and Amazon's fees (this was in 2013 after all), but allegedly picked up another 10% or so in the Pledge Manager, so let's call it roughly a wash) and after discovering that this was actually harder than anticipated, they delivered a portion of what was owed and decided to run out the clock on the remainder.
On top of that, there has already been one related Kickstarter (run by Pinnacle Entertainment Group) for a Role Playing Game based off Palladium Books' primary intellectual property, and a board game Kickstarter is allegedly set to launch in April, again using that same IP.
Frankly speaking, it seems like as long as Palladium puts out some token effort, they can coast forever, and as long as Kickstarter gets its cut, there doesn't seem to be an repercussions for the former behaviour.
I am a fan of what Kickstarter does, I respect that it is not a pre-order, or a store, or something that guarantees success. But there seems to be no mechanism in place to prevent repeated use and even abuse of the platform as long as the thinnest veil is applied between them and those projects. At least if they were to take the steps of declaring what went wrong and refunding whatever portion of our contributions they can with what remains, it would bring closure.
But at this rate I suspect this running gag could go another half a decade.
"This happened because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.
Due to your inability to comply with our guidelines, your privileges to certain features on Kickstarter have been temporarily restricted. They will be restored on March 9th, but please bear in mind that future violations will result in stronger actions being taken against your account."
So I have been abusive.
I shall review what I said (it is still there) and learn from my mistakes.
Has anyone gone to their link for guidelines?
Don’t be a jerk.
Spoiler:
Conversation is an essential part of our community — we encourage backers to talk to creators and to talk to each other, especially when they have questions. All we ask is that those conversations stay honest and considerate. Don’t post obscene, hateful, or objectionable content. Don’t post personal information. Don’t post copyrighted content without permission. If you don’t like a project, don’t back it, simply move along. Please always have respect for our shared space and the other folks visiting it.
Which is why the $1 and back out trolling is all I will be doing on Kickstarter. The platform is useless for backers, but great for charlatans, thieves, and con artists.
Forar wrote: Kickstarter Replied, and I Replied to the Reply (Replyception).
Spoilered for those who don't care. Spoiler: they aren't very interested in doing much about it.
Yeah, I think I might actually have a bit more respect for them if they actually told the truth: "We got our cut, and that's what matters. Suck it, loser!"
I've stopped using them. I have yet to see anything that involves them in any way enforcing anything on creators.
Talizvar wrote: Well I have my response at KS for the lock-out:
"This happened because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.
Due to your inability to comply with our guidelines, your privileges to certain features on Kickstarter have been temporarily restricted. They will be restored on March 9th, but please bear in mind that future violations will result in stronger actions being taken against your account."
So I have been abusive.
I shall review what I said (it is still there) and learn from my mistakes.
Has anyone gone to their link for guidelines?
Don’t be a jerk.
Spoiler:
Conversation is an essential part of our community — we encourage backers to talk to creators and to talk to each other, especially when they have questions. All we ask is that those conversations stay honest and considerate. Don’t post obscene, hateful, or objectionable content. Don’t post personal information. Don’t post copyrighted content without permission. If you don’t like a project, don’t back it, simply move along. Please always have respect for our shared space and the other folks visiting it.
In case anyone is worried it is there.
RRT and Kickstarter: the giving just never stops.
and yet PB violated Kickstarters own rules by posting personal information regarding Carmen.
Forar wrote: Kickstarter Replied, and I Replied to the Reply (Replyception).
Spoilered for those who don't care. Spoiler: they aren't very interested in doing much about it.
Spoiler:
A Kickstarter Service Rep wrote:But at this rate I suspect this running gag could go another half a decade.
We are on our fourth year of this kickstarter and I was thinking.. Games workshop has about a five year cycle
for each edition of their game.. So if Robotech Tactics wave 2 ever comes out, they should just call it Second edition instead
Merijeek wrote: So? You think you deserve a response from a merchant just because you gave him money?
ENTITLED MUCH?!!
As an investor...HELL YEAH!!!!!!! It is even in the Kickstarter terms of service for them to communicate to us. Sorry that you feel that they owe you nothing, but it is the agreed upon contract that they communicate with us what is going on, and give us our stuff; but hey are in breach of contract, and I am looking for someone to enforce it, or get me restitution. Problem is that I live in BFE, and legal help is expensive, but I intend on including the legal fees as part of my lawsuit, because hey, I wouldn't be out the legal fees if they had produced or refunded the money.
Talizvar wrote: Well I have my response at KS for the lock-out:
"This happened because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.
Due to your inability to comply with our guidelines, your privileges to certain features on Kickstarter have been temporarily restricted. They will be restored on March 9th, but please bear in mind that future violations will result in stronger actions being taken against your account."
It always makes me laugh when I hear Kickstarter talking about taking their guidelines "very seriously".
Yeah, the guidelines for commentors, but not creators. From their Terms of Use.
"Don’t lie to people. Don’t post information you know is false, misleading, or inaccurate. Don’t do anything deceptive or fraudulent." False and fraudulent is an arguable issue, though I think they have, on many occasions. Misleading, inaccurate and deceptive are indisputable. Just the fact that they said they were still on target while the Pledge Manager was open, is proof of the latter (and a good argument for the former).
Don’t spam. Don’t distribute unsolicited or unauthorized advertising or promotional material, or any junk mail, spam, or chain letters. Don’t run mail lists, listservs, or any kind of auto-responder or spam on or through the Site. Don’t abuse other users’ personal information. When you use Kickstarter — and especially if you create a successful project — you may receive information about other users, including things like their names, email addresses, and postal addresses. This information is provided for the purpose of participating in a Kickstarter project: don’t use it for other purposes, and don’t abuse it. Like signing people up to an automated EMail of the PBWU without their permission? Something like that?
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. Note, the process goes beyond the funding period. So even if you accept their occasional bleating about backers not being forgotten, and the "commitment to Wave 2", they've definitely failed to live up to high standard of effort or honest communication by any arguable standard.
Quoting the next section because it's lengthy.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
- they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
- they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
- they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
- they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
- they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
So, how have they done in this regard? Nope, hell no, no, no, and bwahahaha no.
So, as a backer, you've got to follow all the rules and guidelines. As a creator, not so much.
I've actually had to go into BackerKit for another KS and found my way back to the RRT casefile. Seems like I'm still out the following:
Armored Valkyries ($20.00)
Super Valkyrie Wing ($35.00)
MKII Monster ($40.00)
Gnerl Fighters ($15.00)
Zentraedi Male Power Armor Pack ($20.00)
SDF-1 ($20.00)
So $150, about half of what I pledged for. Not too sure how to feel about this, I'm not seriously expecting it to appear by now, and the money is, in the greater scheme of things, really minimal, but it's the principle of the thing -- if you promise something to others, the least is to have a decent closure (even if you can't fulfill the promise). Stringing people along is just disrespectful. Basic accountability still requires some form of closure.
Genoside07 wrote:We are on our fourth year of this kickstarter and I was thinking.. Games workshop has about a five year cycle
for each edition of their game.. So if Robotech Tactics wave 2 ever comes out, they should just call it Second edition instead
Friend and I were wise-cracking that the Robotech Wars (all three of them; at least the First one is over!) would be canonically over before RRT actually completes...
Joyboozer wrote:This project creator has not had a single conversation with us since this project was launched.
Pretty true. He's been doing a monologue, just like a classic evil super-villain. Unfortunately, there is a decided lack of an evil master plan...
i'm curious if PB does end up going bankrupt and their IP's taken to auction to pay their debtors (of which the backers would not be included as one unless a court case is filed), before Carmen gets his BoardGame out what will that do for Carmen's game since his license will be null and void?
Merijeek wrote: So, maybe a silly question, but is Backerkit in any way associated with Kickstarter?
If not, how are they not a store that took a preorder?
I'm not an expert but I don't think Backerkit is associated with Kickstarter as organizations. Backerkit works with KS and Indiegogo projects, and if I remember the early days correctly, they just offer a package service to crowdfunders.
As an aside, I'd just want to address the elephant in the room, and I'd probably become unpopular very quickly. Crowdfunding sites like KS and Indiegogo, plus auxiliary service providers like Backerkit, they provide a networking platform and services to two networks -- the network of creators, and the network of small investors. By its very nature, such crowdfunding projects are high-risk (by traditional thinking) and potentially low rewards, because if they had been anything else, they probably can find funding elsewhere like bank loans etc. This is at least true in the early days, though nowadays creators are also using KS as, for the lack of a better term, advertisement. It's part of the process of the specific industry maturing.
By taking part in the backing process, we are essentially putting ourselves at risks of default, and accepting those risks. That means a few things... first, any project I personally back, I do expect it to have a percentage chance of failure. The money I commit is money I am able to throw away; painfully or not is a separate question. To make this post relevant to RTT, I went in a bit hood-winked by ND's involvement, but I knew PB was involved and the chance of a mud pit is there. I just didn't expect it to suck so hard.
Second, there's no way KS/ Indiegogo/ Backerkit would leave themselves open to legal entanglements by trying to enforce that creators follow through on these high-risk projects. It's neither practical (since honest inherent risks of failure can be high in many cases) nor economically feasible (to expend resources for enforcement/ punishment) on defaulters who couldn't fund their own projects to begin with.
We as backers might want the protection/ fairness/ last resort of having KS bring the holy banhammer down on PB, but it's never going to happen; KS doing that will put chills down every other creator and reduce their network of creators, which in turns undercut their network effect which is critical to KS' core business. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, I expect.
There are two ways I can see that would improve overall crowdfunding creator accountability. The first, is governmental regulatory oversight, which is bad for various reasons, and generally speaking most governments are either too slow to react to the crowdfunding movement, or prefer not to get involved. The second is creator community self-policing/ request for enforcement from KS as a platform/ service provider, likely as a result of mass creator fraud/ deception cases that drives the platform reputation severely down. That, at the moment is unlikely to happen (at least on KS), since to the best of my knowledge the majority of creators are fairly honest and accountable to their backers -- something to do with most of them being honest folks who love what they want to do, really.
Merijeek wrote: So, maybe a silly question, but is Backerkit in any way associated with Kickstarter?
If not, how are they not a store that took a preorder?
I'm not an expert but I don't think Backerkit is associated with Kickstarter as organizations. Backerkit works with KS and Indiegogo projects, and if I remember the early days correctly, they just offer a package service to crowdfunders.
As an aside, I'd just want to address the elephant in the room, and I'd probably become unpopular very quickly. Crowdfunding sites like KS and Indiegogo, plus auxiliary service providers like Backerkit, they provide a networking platform and services to two networks -- the network of creators, and the network of small investors. By its very nature, such crowdfunding projects are high-risk (by traditional thinking) and potentially low rewards, because if they had been anything else, they probably can find funding elsewhere like bank loans etc. This is at least true in the early days, though nowadays creators are also using KS as, for the lack of a better term, advertisement. It's part of the process of the specific industry maturing.
By taking part in the backing process, we are essentially putting ourselves at risks of default, and accepting those risks. That means a few things... first, any project I personally back, I do expect it to have a percentage chance of failure. The money I commit is money I am able to throw away; painfully or not is a separate question. To make this post relevant to RTT, I went in a bit hood-winked by ND's involvement, but I knew PB was involved and the chance of a mud pit is there. I just didn't expect it to suck so hard.
Second, there's no way KS/ Indiegogo/ Backerkit would leave themselves open to legal entanglements by trying to enforce that creators follow through on these high-risk projects. It's neither practical (since honest inherent risks of failure can be high in many cases) nor economically feasible (to expend resources for enforcement/ punishment) on defaulters who couldn't fund their own projects to begin with.
We as backers might want the protection/ fairness/ last resort of having KS bring the holy banhammer down on PB, but it's never going to happen; KS doing that will put chills down every other creator and reduce their network of creators, which in turns undercut their network effect which is critical to KS' core business. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, I expect.
There are two ways I can see that would improve overall crowdfunding creator accountability. The first, is governmental regulatory oversight, which is bad for various reasons, and generally speaking most governments are either too slow to react to the crowdfunding movement, or prefer not to get involved. The second is creator community self-policing/ request for enforcement from KS as a platform/ service provider, likely as a result of mass creator fraud/ deception cases that drives the platform reputation severely down. That, at the moment is unlikely to happen (at least on KS), since to the best of my knowledge the majority of creators are fairly honest and accountable to their backers -- something to do with most of them being honest folks who love what they want to do, really.
the problem with that is if KickStarter fails to enforce their own ToS even against the creator (like giving out personal medical information on one of their backers) then they do open themselves up to the law.
Asterios wrote: i'm curious if PB does end up going bankrupt and their IP's taken to auction to pay their debtors (of which the backers would not be included as one unless a court case is filed), before Carmen gets his BoardGame out what will that do for Carmen's game since his license will be null and void?
Nothing. Carmen's license is valid until it expires, even if Palladium sells off it's IPs. In fact, Carmen's license makes Palladium's IPs LESS valuable in this situation, as he's holding part of the IP rights.
Asterios wrote: i'm curious if PB does end up going bankrupt and their IP's taken to auction to pay their debtors (of which the backers would not be included as one unless a court case is filed), before Carmen gets his BoardGame out what will that do for Carmen's game since his license will be null and void?
Nothing. Carmen's license is valid until it expires, even if Palladium sells off it's IPs. In fact, Carmen's license makes Palladium's IPs LESS valuable in this situation, as he's holding part of the IP rights.
actually knowing Kevin Carmen's IP expires after a year, so say, Kevin loses his IP before Carmen is able to renew it? or better yet it is about to expire and Carmen has nothing done on it ? also just because Carmen has a license for the IP does not mean it will be good either, since it is muddy waters.
Lynx is pretty dead on in the assessment. It's falls in line that kickstarter HATES the $1 'trolling and pulling' but they are not policing creators so backers have the right to do it themselves. You might think that everyone knows about Palladium's failure to do the distance but there may well be a few people unaware that there is affiliation between Rogue Heroes and Palladium even if Rogue Heroes isn't a shell company and that backing a Rogue Heroes kickstarter is at minimum as risky as backing another by Palladium.
It's not crushing Carmen Bellaire's dreams, it's informing people of Rogue Heroes being seriously at risk for stalling out and failing to deliver. Rogue Heroes isn't a proven company and Carmen has spent most of his freelancing career in bed with a company that has swindled 1.4 million dollars from over 5,000 people. That's a credit risk by association if I ever heard one.
If Kickstarter won't police creators, the backers knowledgeable in histories of other projects have a right to express and share our knowledge to prevent other people from losing money on bad investments.
Would anyone remain silent if Tony Reidy popped up with a new company and a kickstarter to produce Wicked Cool Battel Suites?
And, yes, I'm deeply worried about Carmen's mental health but I don't think that should scare everyone to complete silence in regards to the risks inherent in the Rifts BG project which are honestly massive. The fact that the project hinges on having faith IN Carmen DESPITE Kevin is a big thing.
TwoGunBob wrote: Lynx is pretty dead on in the assessment. It's falls in line that kickstarter HATES the $1 'trolling and pulling' but they are not policing creators so backers have the right to do it themselves. You might think that everyone knows about Palladium's failure to do the distance but there may well be a few people unaware that there is affiliation between Rogue Heroes and Palladium even if Rogue Heroes isn't a shell company and that backing a Rogue Heroes kickstarter is at minimum as risky as backing another by Palladium.
It's not crushing Carmen Bellaire's dreams, it's informing people of Rogue Heroes being seriously at risk for stalling out and failing to deliver. Rogue Heroes isn't a proven company and Carmen has spent most of his freelancing career in bed with a company that has swindled 1.4 million dollars from over 5,000 people. That's a credit risk by association if I ever heard one.
If Kickstarter won't police creators, the backers knowledgeable in histories of other projects have a right to express and share our knowledge to prevent other people from losing money on bad investments.
Would anyone remain silent if Tony Reidy popped up with a new company and a kickstarter to produce Wicked Cool Battel Suites?
And, yes, I'm deeply worried about Carmen's mental health but I don't think that should scare everyone to complete silence in regards to the risks inherent in the Rifts BG project which are honestly massive. The fact that the project hinges on having faith IN Carmen DESPITE Kevin is a big thing.
if anything Carmen's mental health issue is more of a risk to backers then any connection he may or may not have to PB. and Kevin put it out for the entire world to see.
We as backers might want the protection/ fairness/ last resort of having KS bring the holy banhammer down on PB, but it's never going to happen; KS doing that will put chills down every other creator and reduce their network of creators, which in turns undercut their network effect which is critical to KS' core business. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, I expect.
I don't disagree, but it seems like Kickstarter is putting a very obvious load of crap when they say "Creators are required to blah blah blah" when it's clearly completely untrue.
We as backers might want the protection/ fairness/ last resort of having KS bring the holy banhammer down on PB, but it's never going to happen; KS doing that will put chills down every other creator and reduce their network of creators, which in turns undercut their network effect which is critical to KS' core business. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, I expect.
I don't disagree, but it seems like Kickstarter is putting a very obvious load of crap when they say "Creators are required to blah blah blah" when it's clearly completely untrue.
well I sent kickstarter a message asking if they will enforce their ToS on PB or not and cited parts where PB violated their own ToS and told KS their failure to enforce their own rules could leave them liable
Kickstarter is a nice idea, and it frequently works, but I do chuckle at the hipster-esque use of the words "should", "owe", "deserve", etc. in their terms. That's akin to having a moral code with no legal code to back that.
Imagine how well a country would operate if laws were merely moral suggestions. It seems pretty silly to even put that stuff on their website. They'd be better off being extremely blunt and honest about their policies. No one expects a company like Kickstarter to take on the risk of direct involvement, etc...but they sure shouldn't pretend that they will by the obtuse wording in their policies.
I have no dislike of Kickstarter, but it seems to be run by people of questionable grey matter.
TwoGunBob wrote: Lynx is pretty dead on in the assessment. It's falls in line that kickstarter HATES the $1 'trolling and pulling' but they are not policing creators so backers have the right to do it themselves. You might think that everyone knows about Palladium's failure to do the distance but there may well be a few people unaware that there is affiliation between Rogue Heroes and Palladium even if Rogue Heroes isn't a shell company and that backing a Rogue Heroes kickstarter is at minimum as risky as backing another by Palladium.
I'd hope that someone asks and hopefully gets it posted to the FAQ what the policy will be if Rogue Studios decides, or PB demands, it become further pulled into the Palladium umbrella. Everything else aside, that's the biggest concern I'd have, as it factors in everything else. The license expiring and reverting back, Carmen not feeling up to the task and handing it off, something related or unrelated happening to Carmen (he could be hit by a bus (rather than being thrown under it by Kevin)). If there's not a policy in place for that, and there's a refusal to answer it, anyone who signs up should expect to get screwed over.
We as backers might want the protection/ fairness/ last resort of having KS bring the holy banhammer down on PB, but it's never going to happen; KS doing that will put chills down every other creator and reduce their network of creators, which in turns undercut their network effect which is critical to KS' core business. It's not going to happen in my lifetime, I expect.
I don't disagree, but it seems like Kickstarter is putting a very obvious load of crap when they say "Creators are required to blah blah blah" when it's clearly completely untrue.
As I've said before, Kickstarter don't have to do THAT much. I'm not expecting them to sue PB or refund backers.
All they need to do is
1) Give PB a reasonable window (say 30 days) to come up with a final completion date, where failure to start fulfillment results in point 2.
2) When that window expires, or the date PB give expires, they will declare the project as failed, and backers deserve a refund if they want it.
That's it. No legal action, no financial costs, nothing. It'll still be up to backers to chase it through the courts. The big problem with trying any lawsuits is that according to Kickstarter, they've technically not breached anything. So arguing standing is difficult.
By allowing PB to skate on the technicality of "We SAY we're working on it, so that totally counts", rather than proving they are, that's Kickstarter's fault. Remove that protection, or at least threaten to, and we might see some accountability from Creators to not sit with their thumbs up their proverbial.
Merijeek wrote:I don't disagree, but it seems like Kickstarter is putting a very obvious load of crap when they say "Creators are required to blah blah blah" when it's clearly completely untrue.
Think of those as more of guidelines. Practically, what can KS do? Only for the really bad offenders can KS pull out a big stick, and really just how big a stick is that?
KS: "You didn't follow our TOS so we shall now ban you from using our services." Creator: "Ok, let me register another email, maybe another address, and then I'd come back to do another one."
In the first place, the number of Creators that have more than one major completed project is rare enough that you'd take notice -- one of the things I check is to see how many projects the Creator has done. The reason this is important is that only if a Creator has a string of successful projects and hence a reputation to protect, would the Creator care about the possible ramifications of no longer having access to that account. And for a Creator to have multiple successes would mean he'd pretty much followed the ToS anyway, because those would be pretty self-evident pre-requisites for success.
RTT is really an edge case based on my admitted biased small sample. Uncle Kevin is very good at toeing the few requirements that KS have, such that KS can't really take action unless they change the ToS, and that likely won't grandfather clause. In this case though, PB is never going to be able to do another KS without a lot of flak, case in point on the potential Rifts Boardgame KS, because both communities (Creators and Backers) are sort of self-policing.
So why have those "guidelines"? So that KS can use them to twack minor errant new Creators back into line. That's pretty much it. The "hardened" fraudulent Creators won't give a crap, the honest multiple successful ones don't need it, so it's really more to guide the new ones into behaviour most likely to engender success for them.
Morgan Vening wrote:As I've said before, Kickstarter don't have to do THAT much. I'm not expecting them to sue PB or refund backers.
All they need to do is 1) Give PB a reasonable window (say 30 days) to come up with a final completion date, where failure to start fulfillment results in point 2. 2) When that window expires, or the date PB give expires, they will declare the project as failed, and backers deserve a refund if they want it.
Ok, I think I get what you are thinking of, so let's see what is the pre-requisites for KS to take those actions.
For (1), KS essentially takes on the role of a judge to declare that "hey, this project has been going on too long." But that would imply some form of subject expert knowledge, whereby a judgement can be made that in the field and scope the project exists in, the time frame has gone on for too long.
That either has to come from KS itself, or a panel of expert that KS recognizes as expert in the specific field. If KS is only in one field, then it'd be simpler, but KS covers many, many different subject areas, from technical to arts and entertainment, to boardgames. KS itself can never be accepted by Creators as a subject matter expert who can pass judgement on a project, so the odds are good that it has to come from a panel of Creators -- but at this point, the maturity of the Creator community may not be sufficient for this to happen.
(Aside: It's not impossible to find Creators who have sufficient experience, though the pool would be rather small by nature. For example, DwarvenForge has a proven track record of big successful KS projects, so they obviously must know something in this field. But whether or not they are willing to serve, and whether or not that Creator actually has the correct personality to serve well is not known.)
Why this is important is because otherwise, a Creator for whom KS has rendered judgement on would claim KS has no domain knowledge to make the judgement. Regardless of how that mess sorts out, the net effect is that there will be a cooling effect on the Creators community/ network, likely reducing the total number of projects started. From both a financial and competitive survival perspective, not a good thing for KS.
For (2), the immediate issue is that by being able to judge and declare a project as failed, KS inherently implies itself as having some form of input/ control over the running of the project, and hence therefore inherently responsible for the outcome. That makes them immediately vulnerable to claims of damages (not refunds). That line of argument, compounding with the common "investment" approach to projects, leads to no good places for KS, so they'd never engage on that particular field.
Does that mean nothing can happen? Well one solution that can happen is that KS can, as part of their ToS, to require Creators to perform "jury duty", and also to reserve the right in their ToS to review project progress as an exception measure, and to clearly label/ strongly recommend to the backers to seek refunds upon recommendation of a panel of community experts.
The crux of the problem is they can't do that now, since the legal terminologies in the ToS aren't there, nor is there a community setup to support such need. If they want to do the above, then they need to do a lot of legwork, and it'd likely not apply to RTT since the ToS at the time of the project didn't have such things. What it'd do is to improve things for future projects and Backers.
In order for them to want to do it though, we Backers sort of need to point out the elephant in the room to them, by driving a campaign that continually brings bad projects to their attention. Only if they see a pattern of problems, would they start to bring in processes to deal with it. Won't help us get our toys, but hey, better future and all that jazz.
Is there a manufacturer that actually meets both Palladiums excuse criteria of closing for Chinese New Year and attending conventions?
That must be a hell of a small list, is there even one company that would apply to?
Morgan Vening wrote:As I've said before, Kickstarter don't have to do THAT much. I'm not expecting them to sue PB or refund backers.
All they need to do is
1) Give PB a reasonable window (say 30 days) to come up with a final completion date, where failure to start fulfillment results in point 2.
2) When that window expires, or the date PB give expires, they will declare the project as failed, and backers deserve a refund if they want it.
Ok, I think I get what you are thinking of, so let's see what is the pre-requisites for KS to take those actions.
For (1), KS essentially takes on the role of a judge to declare that "hey, this project has been going on too long." But that would imply some form of subject expert knowledge, whereby a judgement can be made that in the field and scope the project exists in, the time frame has gone on for too long.
That either has to come from KS itself, or a panel of expert that KS recognizes as expert in the specific field. If KS is only in one field, then it'd be simpler, but KS covers many, many different subject areas, from technical to arts and entertainment, to boardgames. KS itself can never be accepted by Creators as a subject matter expert who can pass judgement on a project, so the odds are good that it has to come from a panel of Creators -- but at this point, the maturity of the Creator community may not be sufficient for this to happen.
*snip*
For (2), the immediate issue is that by being able to judge and declare a project as failed, KS inherently implies itself as having some form of input/ control over the running of the project, and hence therefore inherently responsible for the outcome. That makes them immediately vulnerable to claims of damages (not refunds). That line of argument, compounding with the common "investment" approach to projects, leads to no good places for KS, so they'd never engage on that particular field.
*snip again*
I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
Regarding Step 1, I wasn't saying that Kickstarter determines the timeframe for completion. I'm saying Kickstarter gives Palladium a reasonable period to come up with one. If Palladium want to turn around and say it'll be Eo2020, that'd be one thing. But it'd stop this "Eo2014, no, Eo2015, I mean Eo2016, sorry, Eo2017, we mean it this time!" bs. And that PB then have to take the criticism if they pick a ridiculous timeframe. The biggest problem at the moment, is that Palladium keep saying it's 9-12 months away, and have done so for the last 4 years. And I honestly expect to see a post sometime around January 2018 saying "This'll be the year! The relaunch is going to be huge!". Force PB to take a look at the work they've done, the work they've got to do, and put out a timeframe that allows them to stick to, rather than just kicking the can down the road every year. The only reason for giving PB the 30 days, is so they can't just kick that down the road too.
Regarding Step 2, set the timeframe for requiring this revamp at a huge number. One that is so far beyond what a reasonable person would expect or accept. As it stands, the initial estimate for RRT completion was just over 7.25 months. It is now currently 38 months late. That's more than 520% late. Setting a requirement for a revised date (ie, criteria 1) at 500% of the original estimate, shouldn't be considered judgement or input, but an attempt to hold PB to the criteria that as I quoted earlier, are literally part of their Terms of Use.
Note, in all of that, I also said that refunds weren't required. Just that they say backers deserve it. If they want. And failure to do so would still require legal action. Note, the original KDM was famously late. But didn't have the toxicity of RRT. Shadows of Brimstone is also significantly late, and while there's some more hostility there, isn't close to the same thing. Because their Creators kept their backers informed, and showed proof of concept. If a Creator can still keep interest in their project in spite of delays, a large portion will still stick with it.
You argue that it'd open Kickstarter up to legal action. I'm thinking that the failure to hold Creators to the same Terms of Use that they suspend backers for, is more likely to eventually lead them to be co-named in a legal action. Showing that they aren't just about protecting backers from unaccountable creators, would go a long way to preventing that.
Talizvar wrote: Well I have my response at KS for the lock-out:
"This happened because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.
Due to your inability to comply with our guidelines, your privileges to certain features on Kickstarter have been temporarily restricted. They will be restored on March 9th, but please bear in mind that future violations will result in stronger actions being taken against your account."
It always makes me laugh when I hear Kickstarter talking about taking their guidelines "very seriously".
Yeah, the guidelines for commentors, but not creators. From their Terms of Use.
"Don’t lie to people. Don’t post information you know is false, misleading, or inaccurate. Don’t do anything deceptive or fraudulent." False and fraudulent is an arguable issue, though I think they have, on many occasions. Misleading, inaccurate and deceptive are indisputable. Just the fact that they said they were still on target while the Pledge Manager was open, is proof of the latter (and a good argument for the former).
Don’t spam. Don’t distribute unsolicited or unauthorized advertising or promotional material, or any junk mail, spam, or chain letters. Don’t run mail lists, listservs, or any kind of auto-responder or spam on or through the Site. Don’t abuse other users’ personal information. When you use Kickstarter — and especially if you create a successful project — you may receive information about other users, including things like their names, email addresses, and postal addresses. This information is provided for the purpose of participating in a Kickstarter project: don’t use it for other purposes, and don’t abuse it. Like signing people up to an automated EMail of the PBWU without their permission? Something like that?
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. Note, the process goes beyond the funding period. So even if you accept their occasional bleating about backers not being forgotten, and the "commitment to Wave 2", they've definitely failed to live up to high standard of effort or honest communication by any arguable standard.
Quoting the next section because it's lengthy.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
- they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
- they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
- they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
- they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
- they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
So, how have they done in this regard? Nope, hell no, no, no, and bwahahaha no.
So, as a backer, you've got to follow all the rules and guidelines. As a creator, not so much.
Excellent post!
It really does appear that PB has quite clearly, and repeatedly, violated Kickstarter's 'Guidelines'.
Now, what, if anything, is Kickstarter going to do about it?
(Yes, at this point you should not be holding your breath...)
