Ever feel like the referee in WWE?
Lots of drama and carrying on and every once and a while remind people that there are rules...
I always wanted the Ref to say "Ok you princesses, how about you get to it?"
No, not until...now!
Thank you for combining two of my favorite hobbies!
First thing that could help Palladium with their release dates is stop listing the year...
We said March... we didn't say what year we would release it.
I don't know how many people are buying in on the "we are separate companies";
but the guy has a few items published by them and seem pretty tight with Kevin.
The truth will come out when the kickstarter starts.. I wonder if Kevin would feel
any remorse if he Bankrupted Carmen over the failed Kickstarter..
There will be just more announcements of things are burning hot, but words not action on
the RTT front.. If we see anything from wave two it will be a miracle.
Genoside07 wrote: First thing that could help Palladium with their release dates is stop listing the year...
We said March... we didn't say what year we would release it.
I don't know how many people are buying in on the "we are separate companies";
but the guy has a few items published by them and seem pretty tight with Kevin.
The truth will come out when the kickstarter starts.. I wonder if Kevin would feel
any remorse if he Bankrupted Carmen over the failed Kickstarter..
There will be just more announcements of things are burning hot, but words not action on
the RTT front.. If we see anything from wave two it will be a miracle.
it takes a special kind of person to put their neck on the line for Kevin and his failed projects like Carmen is doing, got a feeling Carmen's name is going to be dragged thru the mud and nothing will stick to PB.
Genoside07 wrote: First thing that could help Palladium with their release dates is stop listing the year...
We said March... we didn't say what year we would release it.
I don't know how many people are buying in on the "we are separate companies";
but the guy has a few items published by them and seem pretty tight with Kevin.
The truth will come out when the kickstarter starts.. I wonder if Kevin would feel
any remorse if he Bankrupted Carmen over the failed Kickstarter..
There will be just more announcements of things are burning hot, but words not action on
the RTT front.. If we see anything from wave two it will be a miracle.
Two things, first, one of the projects that Carmen should be known for, and it should be brought up routinely, is Robotech Tactics. Second lead in Game Design, and equal lead in Background Writing. He was also apparently heavily involved in the FAQ/supplemental work stuff, but it's unclear of just how much (Mike and James have a better grasp of that). Just because Kevin keeps omitting the fact, doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up that if not the actual architect for that project, he was definitely heavily involved in it and not some tagged bystander.
Second, assuming Rogue Heroes LLC is actually an LLC, then Carmen won't be bankrupted unless he engages in woefully fraudulent practices (ie, using the LLC for actual illegal activities, that cause the Limited Liability shield to be waived). The entire purpose of an LLC is to protect people from bankruptcy. It's why I was kinda surprised (mostly in hindsight) that PB didn't do one explicitly for RRT. By using the core PB brand, all the assets of PB are at risk if (ie, when) RRT eventually fails. Kevin will obviously claim that the Kickstarter is a separate entity, and that only the funds remaining are at risk, but that is unlikely to hold up if it eventually goes to court. Not sure on the rules for Incorporation (what PB is), but I would assume that'd protect Kevin's personal assets (house, car, personal accounts) but not the PB accounts, assets and IP's.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for carmen....he was involved but it was pretty apparent he felt tgere was no need to clarify things via faq or fix them.like the the blast rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mind you carmen also had to publicly apologize to mike for inferring that the conventional rules were his own.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one last thing...carmen has has plagiarism/idea theft accusations levelled at him in the past for heroes unlimited related things that were published.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh one more thing...as I recall...genxon 2015 had a number of reports from people the carmen was shilling a board game that was not palladium related....wonder if his vaunted board game had no takers so him getting rifts was kevin throwing him a bone...
"There was a point in my past where I owned almost everything PB had ever produced, from the GM's screen to some of the pewter minis to the novels and the CCG (along with several bookshelves full of books, of course).
Like Rosco, my more recent experiences with the company leave me wary or actively disinterested in even tangential products.
Good luck with the Kickstarter."
Deleted, no explanation in a private message, apparently bad enough to cull but not so bad as to even fill me in as to why.
@Jefffar, this is the kind of bullgak that gives those forums a bad name. If I or any member of Dakka act out here, a mod will inform us, in the thread, in a PM, maybe with a temp ban time out to think about what we've done.
Apparently being honest as to why I'm uninterested in something that would've previously been something I just threw money at is somehow inappropriate.
1310 posts on that forum, according to my profile page.
I wonder how many more there'd be if a bunch hadn't been 'culled' over the years without notification or my noticing...
Carmen took over the metal casting for the ancient 90's era Rifts minis that PB is still selling. He was Kevin's in house "go to guy" for advice as he'd played 40k and several of the clicks games. He works at PB either part time or as a volunteer I couldn't tell which, but he's around their office pretty regularly and was present almost every time I spoke with Kevin. He's part of the select and anointed inner circle. Back before things got started when I'd speak to PB I'd talk a bit with Kevin and usually get transferred over to Carmen at some point. He seems like a decent guy but he also seemed to have some ideas about the gaming market that were a bit off target compared to the business models that other miniatures companies have established.
It's kind of interesting that while I don't know much about Carmen's background in gaming, the only thing I have heard, now from three different people, about three different projects, are plagarism claims. Or at least, works inspired by those of others. Those being Conventional Forces for RRT, Powers Unlimited, and now the one Paulson mentioned.
I'll note that these are just claims, though that doesn't mean I don't personally believe Mike, Jaymz or Paulson Games. But when it's three different sources talking about three different things, it's not unexpected to wonder if this isn't a pattern of sorts.
Just to be clear...carmens board game is not the same one that was run several times at different pb open houses. I also know that one was based on another game. Carmens is a "new" one as far as i know.
Here is the post for those who do not want to go to their forums:
I have noticed in recent weeks that some posts get quietly deleted without comment or explanation to the person posting.
I have had this happen, and I know of at least 3 others that have had this happen. Having seen their posts and knowing how I personally post, I can say with some conviction, none of the posts violated any rules and none of the posters were given any explanation for these stealth deletions. I myself finally received an explanation when I proceeded to repeatedly post until they did PM me an explanation which I disagreed with but at the time left it alone.
What I want to know is if this is now standard practice on these forums and if so to what end?
These forums have a bad enough reputation and this will do nothing but worsen that reputation.
Weren't the RRT rules developed by ND and then messed about with by Carmen.
It seemed to me that the original designer agreed that Zent infantry are too slow moving. I can imagine that Carmen made a bunch of unplaytested changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are banging away on books! In fact, we already notified our printer to expect many new titles this year.
I wonder how many times their printer has heard that before.
According to what Tom Roache told me Carmen did a complete rewrite not just "messed about"
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Carmen himself told me flat out the rules by ND were "utter garbage so i had to completely redo them from scratch"
jaymz wrote: Having seen their posts and knowing how I personally post, I can say with some conviction, none of the posts violated any rules and none of the posters were given any explanation for these stealth deletions.
Did your posts praise PB? if not then that violates their rules.
Is Carmen a MI resident like the rest of PB or located somewhere else?
A MI Biz search shows no hits for a Rogue Heroes LLC, it doesn't appear to be a registered company
I think he lives just over the border in Canada and commutes. It's been a few years so I may a bit fuzzy (or things may have changed since) but from what I recall he had been working primarily as a truck driver going back and forth between MI and Canada, PB being a regular hang out since it was close to home.
OMG! OMG! OMG! Ok that out my system now.Man after reading all these posts it make you wonder why I put so much money into this major Debacle of a game . It make me want to bang my head against the wall for this. But I want to thanks all you guys for posting this information. I'am Michigan resident so from what read here and else where Carmen is from city of Windsor which is right cross from Detroit Michigan. So he have 1 hour to 1 and half hour drive to Westland Michigan which is where PB is at. I have notice that there is some Canadian for PB and against PB do see civil war here on this subject? Well I'm done for now.
Hi Forar and The Beast (this is in reply to the related post News on the upcoming Rifts Board Game Moderation Discussion)
I asked Kevin to mention it in the newsletter because if we don't drum up interest before the kickstarter, the kickstarter will surely fail and I can't afford that. I don't have a big advertising budget for this kickstarter. I cannot send out to tons of youtube reviewers or post ads on gaming sites, so I need every bit of exposure I can get and asking Kevin to put it in the newsletter costs nothing.
It got its own subforum because I asked for it. I really do want feedback and with its own subforum it is easier for people to give that feedback and it gives me a place to post vids and pics of the game. As far as why other topics don't get a subforum, I don't know why either. I am a friend of Kevin and Palladium but I'm not in on why they do everything they do.
I know I am going to get negative blow back on me because of Palladium's handling of the RTT so I want people to have time to see that I want to do my kickstarter differently. So there is no need to start other threads to bring up problems with the idea of a Rifts: Board Game, although I would ask you to be at least positive with your criticism. I will try to respond to it all if I can.
I also agree with The Beast that why you will not back is valid, but just bringing up the RTT continually is kind of pointless. I have no control over it and nothing to do with it. Simply put this is MY kickstarter not Palladium's and their failures or successes are not mine and I will have to succeed or fail on my own. Although I am going to sure as hell do my damnedest not to repeat their mistakes!
I have asked for them not to delete posts on that thread, but if they do or not, I have no control over it. But I will continue to ask them not to. The reason I am showing these on the Palladium boards first is to get the backing and responses of Rifts players before I make a Facebook page for the project. Even those of you negative on the idea are worth listening to as I can learn what NOT to do when I run my kickstarter, so as long as everyone is civil in the discussion I see no problems with people stating their objections or the support. Again just politely please.
Thanks Carmen :-D
Don't blame me for RTT .. Per Carmen.. but his name is listed first in credits of RTT on Boardgame Geek.. but wants everyone to stay positive about the Rifts Table top situation.
Hi Forar and The Beast (this is in reply to the related post News on the upcoming Rifts Board Game Moderation Discussion)
I asked Kevin to mention it in the newsletter because if we don't drum up interest before the kickstarter, the kickstarter will surely fail and I can't afford that. I don't have a big advertising budget for this kickstarter. I cannot send out to tons of youtube reviewers or post ads on gaming sites, so I need every bit of exposure I can get and asking Kevin to put it in the newsletter costs nothing.
It got its own subforum because I asked for it. I really do want feedback and with its own subforum it is easier for people to give that feedback and it gives me a place to post vids and pics of the game. As far as why other topics don't get a subforum, I don't know why either. I am a friend of Kevin and Palladium but I'm not in on why they do everything they do.
I know I am going to get negative blow back on me because of Palladium's handling of the RTT so I want people to have time to see that I want to do my kickstarter differently. So there is no need to start other threads to bring up problems with the idea of a Rifts: Board Game, although I would ask you to be at least positive with your criticism. I will try to respond to it all if I can.
I also agree with The Beast that why you will not back is valid, but just bringing up the RTT continually is kind of pointless. I have no control over it and nothing to do with it. Simply put this is MY kickstarter not Palladium's and their failures or successes are not mine and I will have to succeed or fail on my own. Although I am going to sure as hell do my damnedest not to repeat their mistakes!
I have asked for them not to delete posts on that thread, but if they do or not, I have no control over it. But I will continue to ask them not to. The reason I am showing these on the Palladium boards first is to get the backing and responses of Rifts players before I make a Facebook page for the project. Even those of you negative on the idea are worth listening to as I can learn what NOT to do when I run my kickstarter, so as long as everyone is civil in the discussion I see no problems with people stating their objections or the support. Again just politely please.
Thanks Carmen :-D
Don't blame me for RTT .. Per Carmen.. but his name is listed first in credits of RTT on Boardgame Geek.. but wants everyone to stay positive about the Rifts Table top situation.
can we name 2 things that RRT and RBG have in common? well lets see Carmen and Palladium Books, nuff said.
jaymz wrote: Just to be clear...carmens board game is not the same one that was run several times at different pb open houses. I also know that one was based on another game. Carmens is a "new" one as far as i know.
Here is the post for those who do not want to go to their forums:
I have noticed in recent weeks that some posts get quietly deleted without comment or explanation to the person posting.
I have had this happen, and I know of at least 3 others that have had this happen. Having seen their posts and knowing how I personally post, I can say with some conviction, none of the posts violated any rules and none of the posters were given any explanation for these stealth deletions. I myself finally received an explanation when I proceeded to repeatedly post until they did PM me an explanation which I disagreed with but at the time left it alone.
What I want to know is if this is now standard practice on these forums and if so to what end?
These forums have a bad enough reputation and this will do nothing but worsen that reputation.
It seems that Beast fellow is on secret probation or something. He just made a post in your thread claiming the mods there are altering his signature remarks.
Desmodus wrote: It seems that Beast fellow is on secret probation or something. He just made a post in your thread claiming the mods there are altering his signature remarks.
The funniest thing is, the sig in question was this.
"Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations."
Then, a mod at the PBForums goes out and proves it's accurate.
Two weeks ago I had my own run-in with the mods over them stealth deleting my posts. I responded to a Forar post about heavyhandedness over there. They deleted his, and mine. I reposted it, as I hadn't broken any rules as far as I knew. I've gotten in the habit of saving PBF posts due to threads being deleted. They deleted it. This went on TEN TIMES over the course of about a week, me reposting, them deleting, me reposting again. If I'd known WHO was deleting or WHY I was being deleted, I'd have voiced a reasoning. But that didn't happen until after the tenth time. That's when I got a quasi-reasonable explanation, and so I stopped. But the explanation I was given was basically "I can delete the post, delete the post and lock the thread, or delete the post/lock the thread/issue suspensions, which do you prefer?". I responded that they could COMMUNICATE the reason. They've chosen not to try that, it seems.
Typical response, just like the people at PB. Figure out the worst possible option, and do that. Seriously, they'd be better off publicly banning people than this stealth moderation.
Oh, and to bring it back to kind of on-topic, the reason the stealth deletions were/are happening, was that there's a poll regarding the new "totally not made by PB" Rifts BoardGame was asking about interest levels. And people were responding "Not interested because of how RRT was/is handled". No big rants, nothing offensive, nothing objectionable (unless any criticism is objectionable, which on PB, it seems to be). Just a short explanation as to why they responded to the poll with "No, I'll pass". Given that option is in the significant majority, I think it's understandable for people (and Carmen) to want a reason for it.
It is very easy to check the powers unlimited plagiarism claims for yourself. Theres a stickied powers thread in the heroes unlimited section of the forums. Look through the earliest parts of the thread and then compare it to the powers unlimited one and three books. In some cases it just copy and paste ..what palladium does best..
I posted on the Rifts game forum and it was sent to admin before it can show up... so they are locking down on their site..
But I was wondering.. RTT pissed off approximately 5000 people, what percent is that of the gaming
community.. I just know the times I mentioned it at my FLGS, most are not interested and the RTT items is on the clearance rack. With no plausible future of any kind of release how can they think of repairing this issue.
Despite Carmen's protestations to the contrary, insisting this is all his own work - you might wonder that if he was designing this for over two years what happenned tp the advanced rules he was supposed to create for RTT - that his good friend Kevin has not helped him in this.
Look at the bare facts , kevin has expended more verbiage on this in the last mnth than he has bothered to do with RTT in the last six months. A new sub forum is asked for and set up on the Palladium site almost straightway, considering the RTT one was more a response to backers upsetting the White KNights and their comfy zone.
The final nail is thatis to think that Kevin is going to let anyone apart from himself has any creative input into his baby, Rifts. Going forward given that PB have outlawed discussions to port any fan made material, when this launches if crossovers are allowed then you know it is a Palladium product
evilsmurf wrote: Wow, Carmen's made some brave replies in the PB forums. I think he's skirting treason with some of what he's said.
Yeah, I saw some of those, and I was like "Unca Kevin would not be happy if he actually read the Forums!". But we know he doesn't, so unless he gets snitched on (though in the Megaverse, snitches get promoted), it'll never be a problem.
It's very much a "Yeah, gonna not be doing what RRT did" without mentioning it. That'd be a good thing if I actually believed it was going to be a PB-hands-off campaign and production run. But I can't believe Kevin won't want to put his mark on it at some point. If there's one thing Kevin can't abide, it's keeping his nose out of things. He'll want to do enough to get his name in the credits, and probably not as a "Based on concepts by" way.
On the plagiarism here is the email content....Kevin was not aware initially of the issue until I brought it up this way. Trying to be professional but at the same time I was really pissed at the blatant theft and the idea that Carmen was somewhat innocent in this is completely preposterous. He knew exactly what he had and where it came from.
My Initial Email......
I've not gone through it all in detail. I think something like 80% or more of this is word for word what I had done up. Glad it was useful and I hope to work with things some more. The guys on the Facebook page are testing some of the other stuff I did like the other conventional units not included here and for the most part are happy with how things are working out. I like the change from units doing infantry damage to just all MD. It will make the game a bit faster. I've made some notes here and will make a few more. We can discuss on the RRTMA Facebook page some more over the weekend. I'm confident we can have it all worked out quickly.
Mike Arnold
Response......
Hi Mike,
I want to apologize for some confusion. As you know Jeff Burke is no longer with Palladium Books. Jeff was the guy who was the go between with you and Carmen and others.
I was unaware that Jeff sent Carmen YOUR material (additions to rules and fixes to certain rules questions and clarifications), so all this time I was under the misconception that this was all Carmen Bellaire's work. When I got your email saying "I think something like 80% or more of this is word for word what I had done up," I was surprised. When I was able to contact Carmen, he said, "Yeah, a lot of this is Mike's or inspired by Mike's work. He has some really good ideas." Carmen went on to explain that Jeff Burke had led him to believe this was material created for Palladium Books for future rules. Since Carmen liked a lot of what you had done, he incorporated it into the rules believing it already belonged to Palladium Books. He was shocked and apologetic to learn otherwise. Neither Wayne nor I were kept in the loop on this matter.
Obviously your work is derivative of Palladium Books' published works (and Harmony Gold), but we can NOT just "take it" and use it!!
So Mike, first, I want to apologize for not giving you credit in the Weekly Updates.
Second, I need your permission for Palladium Books to use your work (with changes and additions and additional stats as we deem necessary or desirable) and make them "official" parts of Robotech RPG Tactics rules. Of course, YOU will be given credit!
Third, I need to send you a contract and pay you something for your contribution. I cannot afford to pay a lot. I'm hoping something like $100 and credit will suffice.
Please let me know at your earliest convenience if this is acceptable. And sorry for any confusion. Just too much going on and bad communication the part of Jeff.
Nice work, btw, on the material you turned in. Obviously we like it a lot.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Later from Wayne Smith....
Hi Mike,
I'm writing because I haven't heard back from you yet, and I want to make sure things are good between us. As I said in my previous email, we (Wayne and I) were not aware that Carmen was incorporating your rules, which is why your name was not included in Updates about it. I will certainly make sure you get the credit you deserve (assuming you allow us to use them) and would like to see you more directly involved in the future of RRT.
Of course, that's if you are interested in future contributions to the RRT game system and product line.
If you are willing to let us use the current rules as sent to you by Wayne (incorporating a lot of your work), we'd like to post it very soon as "official" material, and offer you a token payment and credit. I can not afford a lot, and rules are always tricky. Wondering, has this already appeared on your own website?
Working more formally in the future, we'll need to work out some ideas for fair compensation, we'll need signed agreements and of course you will get credit for your contributions, past and present.
I hope this confusion on our part (particularly my own) has not caused you any serious consternation. Thank you for caring about this product line. I hope this recent incident with the rules has not upset you. Take care and thank you for all you've done to promote and encourage RRT.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
My future contributions will ONLY be upon request for and by the fans, such as Brian Ledbetter wanting to finish up the Robotech Masters stuff. I have only been working on Nodal Wars, which I like a lot more although it takes a bit more time to play, since late last year when I threw in the towel.
Now the question is how long until this gets passed on to KS by his partners in crime here.
That is really sad... when someone in leadership is so Hyper unaware of their surroundings.
And I always thought it was Karma that caused him to get ran over by the truck... I am waiting for a posting from Kevin that he was not aware of any issues with RTT
One of the other thing I noticed is the low quality of the art they are now using. The cover art
is now just reissued work, colored in line art.. or worse Poser art.. for the people that are not aware
of this type of art is, there are computer programs out there called Poser and Daz3d that are low end
3d graphic programs.
People with some talent can use the program as a springboard for some crazy beautiful looking stuff
but a novice will still be able use it like a computerized version of paper dolls in attempt to make a
sad digital scene. This is what Palladium is putting out now... and they are calling it cover art..
I think that one is back from before the RRT Kickstarter started. It definitely marks a low point Does anyone know who is credited as the cover artist for that one? I don't have any art program skills whatsoever, and have only messed with Poser (version 6, I think) years and years ago, and I can say with some confidence that if you gave me a few hours on an asset resource site and with the program, I could easily bang together a cover the equal of that. It doesn't even look like it's been through any post-Poser Photoshop tweaking.
Since then, Uncle Kev has used the RRT money to get some better Rifts covers.
Thank you Albertorius, that is the stinker art in question.. Thank you Gabriel IV for reinforcing my views of poser.
Don't get me wrong there are some true Poser artist out there.. You can see some outstanding work on Renderosity the main home page for this type of work. But the Rift covers are not it. Another amazing "poser" artist you can look at is Shannon Maer https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNAp-IBGREOyMI6vLhf9Vgg He understands focal points and other things needed for good art, while using the program as a art model/pre layout instead of a finished product.
I don't claim to be an expert artist or anything, but I do know how much time is needed to get a certain look. Again, I'm not trying to shame any Poser artist out there, but you would think a company would want their cover art to be their best foot forward to attract in customers..not with floating crates and weird looking arm joints.
Even with other Kickstarters you can tell about how much time they have placed in the artwork. That will give you a barometer on how things will go in the future of the project.
Not trying to high jack the tread, but it just shows the money needed for over seas injection molding of Wave 2 is a lot more than someone will need to pay for cover art.. And it looks like Palladium can even afford that...
I am a bit late in the thread but thanks Mike for that window into PB business.
At least Kevin was saying the right words but it looked like most of the language he used was for positioning so it was legal to use your content.
He was probably thinking he narrowly missed being sued for misappropriation of your "work", the pointing out it was derived from his IP and HG's was an excellent means of trying to prevent any thoughts around that line. BUT it was very clear the work was sufficiently appreciated he made it clear he was interested.
The stealth deletions are rather sad.
I am unsure where I would feel it is a board's best interest to make it appear a post never existed but it would warrant at least a quick PM.
At the very least to explain why the behavior is not wanted and suggest another means of communicating that "improper" post.
Even in self interest it would prevent that rather insistent 10 posts again by the same person until it was acknowledged.
I was unaware that Jeff sent Carmen YOUR material (additions to rules and fixes to certain rules questions and clarifications), so all this time I was under the misconception that this was all Carmen Bellaire's work. When I got your email saying "I think something like 80% or more of this is word for word what I had done up," I was surprised. When I was able to contact Carmen, he said, "Yeah, a lot of this is Mike's or inspired by Mike's work. He has some really good ideas." Carmen went on to explain that Jeff Burke had led him to believe this was material created for Palladium Books for future rules. Since Carmen liked a lot of what you had done, he incorporated it into the rules believing it already belonged to Palladium Books. He was shocked and apologetic to learn otherwise. Neither Wayne nor I were kept in the loop on this matter.
I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
But he still finds time to blame an entire chain of people. Because it's Kevin "The bad things are never my fault!" Simbieda.
Another thing I noticed is the Rifts board game miniature videos are being posted to his personal YouTube channel.
He started the channel about five years ago and posted a number of videos, but the channel has been abandoned
for the past few years until he posted the new prototype videos.
That is True Palladium Games work ethic shown on his own channel..
1. Promise Big
2. Work Hard for a short while
3. Loose interest and stop
4. Abandon project
5. Wait years to restart process.
jaymz wrote: Iirc most of his videos are "reviews" of pb product
Well, I am glad there is someone impartially reviewing their product! When you spend enough time in a hobby, you can pretty much make "a silk purse our of a sow's ear" the trick is finding the incentive to do so.
I think PB repeatedly over value their IP and figure that as long as it has the name Rifts or Robotech that we will buy it just for that reason alone.
They tend to underestimate that making a clunky product that is difficult to use / build is a bad idea for those who have not drunk the PB cool-aid.
That is unless they are like GW and do not want those kinds of customers: they need to be PB fan/friends.
Wow. These emails imply that Jeff was at fault. Is that why he got fired? He had to take one for the team? The fact that Kevin was "unaware" is shameful. It's your business, pal...a business that has roughly 5 FN employees reporting to you. sheesh.
Mike1975 wrote: On the plagiarism here is the email content....Kevin was not aware initially of the issue until I brought it up this way. Trying to be professional but at the same time I was really pissed at the blatant theft and the idea that Carmen was somewhat innocent in this is completely preposterous. He knew exactly what he had and where it came from.
My Initial Email......
I've not gone through it all in detail. I think something like 80% or more of this is word for word what I had done up. Glad it was useful and I hope to work with things some more. The guys on the Facebook page are testing some of the other stuff I did like the other conventional units not included here and for the most part are happy with how things are working out. I like the change from units doing infantry damage to just all MD. It will make the game a bit faster. I've made some notes here and will make a few more. We can discuss on the RRTMA Facebook page some more over the weekend. I'm confident we can have it all worked out quickly.
Mike Arnold
Response......
Hi Mike,
I want to apologize for some confusion. As you know Jeff Burke is no longer with Palladium Books. Jeff was the guy who was the go between with you and Carmen and others.
I was unaware that Jeff sent Carmen YOUR material (additions to rules and fixes to certain rules questions and clarifications), so all this time I was under the misconception that this was all Carmen Bellaire's work. When I got your email saying "I think something like 80% or more of this is word for word what I had done up," I was surprised. When I was able to contact Carmen, he said, "Yeah, a lot of this is Mike's or inspired by Mike's work. He has some really good ideas." Carmen went on to explain that Jeff Burke had led him to believe this was material created for Palladium Books for future rules. Since Carmen liked a lot of what you had done, he incorporated it into the rules believing it already belonged to Palladium Books. He was shocked and apologetic to learn otherwise. Neither Wayne nor I were kept in the loop on this matter.
Obviously your work is derivative of Palladium Books' published works (and Harmony Gold), but we can NOT just "take it" and use it!!
So Mike, first, I want to apologize for not giving you credit in the Weekly Updates.
Second, I need your permission for Palladium Books to use your work (with changes and additions and additional stats as we deem necessary or desirable) and make them "official" parts of Robotech RPG Tactics rules. Of course, YOU will be given credit!
Third, I need to send you a contract and pay you something for your contribution. I cannot afford to pay a lot. I'm hoping something like $100 and credit will suffice.
Please let me know at your earliest convenience if this is acceptable. And sorry for any confusion. Just too much going on and bad communication the part of Jeff.
Nice work, btw, on the material you turned in. Obviously we like it a lot.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Later from Wayne Smith....
Hi Mike,
I'm writing because I haven't heard back from you yet, and I want to make sure things are good between us. As I said in my previous email, we (Wayne and I) were not aware that Carmen was incorporating your rules, which is why your name was not included in Updates about it. I will certainly make sure you get the credit you deserve (assuming you allow us to use them) and would like to see you more directly involved in the future of RRT.
Of course, that's if you are interested in future contributions to the RRT game system and product line.
If you are willing to let us use the current rules as sent to you by Wayne (incorporating a lot of your work), we'd like to post it very soon as "official" material, and offer you a token payment and credit. I can not afford a lot, and rules are always tricky. Wondering, has this already appeared on your own website?
Working more formally in the future, we'll need to work out some ideas for fair compensation, we'll need signed agreements and of course you will get credit for your contributions, past and present.
I hope this confusion on our part (particularly my own) has not caused you any serious consternation. Thank you for caring about this product line. I hope this recent incident with the rules has not upset you. Take care and thank you for all you've done to promote and encourage RRT.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
My future contributions will ONLY be upon request for and by the fans, such as Brian Ledbetter wanting to finish up the Robotech Masters stuff. I have only been working on Nodal Wars, which I like a lot more although it takes a bit more time to play, since late last year when I threw in the towel.
Now the question is how long until this gets passed on to KS by his partners in crime here.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Wow. These emails imply that Jeff was at fault. Is that why he got fired? He had to take one for the team? The fact that Kevin was "unaware" is shameful. It's your business, pal...a business that has roughly 5 FN employees reporting to you.
Well...that and a couple dozen unpaid freelancers.
I know it has taken a very long time to fulfill this Kickstarter, and for that I am very sorry. More sorry than some of you may be able to imagine. But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017. Not only that, but we want to make it amazing. Our Kickstarter backers and fans have waited so long for RRT Wave 2, that if we can make improvements we want to do so. We have been frustrated by many aspects of production that clash with what we know would make a superior product. Moreover, we want to offer organized play support, scenario books, and the next several Waves of RRT products. We have never given up on our dream to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ amazing.
We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017. We want to bring Robotech® to life on the table top like never before, and we are working hard to make this happen.
We have not released details these many months because everything has been in motion, and still is. There have been times when we thought we had firm plans for moving forward, only to have something occur to change them – good or bad. Case in point, we had pretty much resigned ourselves to being unable to significantly lower the part count in the RRT game pieces. However, we are suddenly readdressing that as we explore new possibilities that have surfaced. In fact, I have spent most of the week on this very matter. We are working on all of this with the desire to bring you something great, not just crap it out to be done with it. We have big dreams for Robotech® on several fronts, and are trying to make them all happen. To that end we have had many positive and exciting conversations with Harmony Gold and other interested parties. I know it is a lot to ask, but please hang in there with us. We think we have something truly fun brewing.
On a smaller scale, Harmony Gold has approved our proposal and art concepts for the first RRT Scenario Book and our plans for the Ghost Fleet Saga™ series.
The RRT Macross® Saga Scenario Book One will present mission scenarios based on the first half of the Robotech® Macross® Saga era of the television show. That means many missions and battles that are part of the iconic events, characters and story of the Robotech® Macross® Saga. RRT Macross® Saga Scenario Book Two is already in development and will provide all the remaining chapters of the Robotech® Macross® Saga.
The Ghost Fleet Saga™ is expected to be a series of RPG adventure sourcebooks that will create new Robotech® RPG and RRT factions and settings to game in. The time period is the decade between the UEEF’s departure from Earth and their return in New Generation. This means the setting incorporates the mecha of several Robotech® eras (Macross® Saga, The Masters Saga, New Generation and the beginnings of Shadow technology). The UEEF uses the new (and dangerous) Shadow technology in covert operations against the Regent and his Invid and Inorganics, as well as space pirates and renegade Zentraedi. This series will offer a wide range of stories, new mecha and adventures in space and on alien worlds.
If you need to change/update your address in BackerKit, please send us a message through Kickstarter, or an email to kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com, and we’ll take care of it. A lot of people have been submitting address changes. Excellent! Please, keep those address changes coming in. Thank you.
"Updating Your Address" feels like the equivalent to clicking 'unsubscribe' on a spam e-mail - i.e., the wrong thing to do, because now they now you're there, and paying attention!
Forar - isn't there a 'drop dead date' here for when they promised ACTUAL details on Wave 2 stuff - and not the usual "We've got plans - BIG PLANS - but we can't tell you - just in case they don't work out and/or there are changes!" line?
An interesting wrinkle this time around was how there were unexpected changes to their plans and that was a...good thing?
in response to backers where they state that there is nothing they can do and if we feel we must do something then we can file suit against Palladium Books but as far as Kickstarter goes there is nothing they can or will do.
go ahead and mail em Alpharius they will tell you the same thing.
Alpharius wrote: Forar - isn't there a 'drop dead date' here for when they promised ACTUAL details on Wave 2 stuff - and not the usual "We've got plans - BIG PLANS - but we can't tell you - just in case they don't work out and/or there are changes!" line?
It was "by the end of January", and then in mid January it became "in a month" (or words to that effect), so in theory they should have more info in Mid February (if one takes them literally, as we are want to do), or maybe February/early March if one gives them leeway (WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?).
I'm sure it'll be shuffled back soon, but from what we know of the Design -> Production -> Delivery timeline with wave one, they really need to gak or get off the pot soon if they want to even have a realistic chance of doing it this year (and by "this year" I mean "by Black Friday", because big sales opportunities seem to be the only thing they care about).
That's a hypothetical, non-Alpharius folks. Anyone who bothers trying to correct that is just showing how they're not paying attention.
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My response to that "update" over on the update comments nad general comments for those who do not wish to sully themselves with the place:
"Moreover, we want to offer organized play support, scenario books, and the next several Waves of RRT products."
I do not expect to get my Wave Two.
You (PB) pissed away and chased off people (like me and others) who really gave a damn and did everything in our power to help you do just exactly what was said in the above quote.
No, you do not get to say :we are totes working on it honest" anymore.
My minis are assembled. They are getting used for a game that actually GETS support in Battletech Alpha Strike.
I game at least once a week playing BT:AS, X-wing, Star Wars Armada, Star Trek Attack Wing, Warhammer 40k, and soon Star Wars Imperial Assault.
I and others like me were more than willing to put that time and effort into RRT.
YOU would not listen.
YOU ****ed it up.
YOU pissed it away.
You reap what you ****ing sow and you have sowed nothing but disdain, contempt, and vitriol by your own actions in regards to this project and those who very much wanted to make it a success.
Alpharius wrote: Forar - isn't there a 'drop dead date' here for when they promised ACTUAL details on Wave 2 stuff - and not the usual "We've got plans - BIG PLANS - but we can't tell you - just in case they don't work out and/or there are changes!" line?
It was "by the end of January", and then in mid January it became "in a month" (or words to that effect), so in theory they should have more info in Mid February (if one takes them literally, as we are want to do), or maybe February/early March if one gives them leeway (WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?).
I'm sure it'll be shuffled back soon, but from what we know of the Design -> Production -> Delivery timeline with wave one, they really need to gak or get off the pot soon if they want to even have a realistic chance of doing it this year (and by "this year" I mean "by Black Friday", because big sales opportunities seem to be the only thing they care about).
That's a hypothetical, non-Alpharius folks. Anyone who bothers trying to correct that is just showing how they're not paying attention.
I read the full update and it's just "free" words.. Kevin has promised RTT for years now..
Words don't cost him anything.. and the comment from him saying the reason for no big
releases in 2016 is they are in the planning phase... BS.. they are dead broke and cant
afford anything.
If you look at the update, it shows their release of Rifter 76 and 77.. #76 cover art is just
colored in line art , this is something a kid could do and the #77 is bad Poser art yet again..
That is a sign to me, they are dead broke..And can no longer afford real artist.
The only promise of life is if their friend Carmen can get enough money from Rifts Board
game to bail them out..
If it tanks, I see Palladium games going underwater with no return.. "fingers crossed"
On a funny side note, I tried to ask questions on Palladium forums about the new Rifts Board game.
So I registered.. My first and second post that were both civil in content discussing what was going to
be included in the upcoming game (most have now been already questioned and answered,)
both posts had to go to administrative review... They have yet have to show up and that was last Sunday.
So newly registered people or maybe people on a black list can not post.
So, the PBWU is up, and the section covering RRT is literally a copypasta of the Update that Alpharius copypasta'd on the previous page. Also available here.
There's something to be said that they managed 623 words talking about the state of the RRT project (without actually stating anything), but had no issue with spending 811 words talking about RiftsBG. Where Kevin goes into a lengthy spiel about Carmen's capabilities and accomplishments. That he completely omits that Carmen was instrumental (if arguably not the architect) in the development of the turd this thread is discussing, is quite telling. There's also two paras toward the end where he talks about how it's all Carmen, and totally not PB that have created this, and it's all on Rogue Heroes LLC (with an implication that choosing not to back, is tantamount to taking food from Carmen's family).
Another wrinkle is that the poll over on the PB Forum isn't going so well. Sure, you can argue that the ~60% of respondents who pass are just haterz (even though several posts, mostly stealth deleted, have been from people who have hundreds, if not thousands of Forum posts to their name), but screw the percentages for a minute. On PB's home forum, with overly zealous Mods having removed most of the dissent, that there are only 10 people looking forward to the Kickstarter, and 10 more looking into it IF it succeeds, that's not particularly encouraging. I'm fairly certain it'll fund unless they set the goal too high, or the value is unreasonable, but the general lack of enthusiasm on their home field, just isn't good.
Of course, they're not being Palladium without woefully overestimating their capacity to do things. 5 books listed for release by midyear (plus two Rifters). Yeah, I've got confidence that the RRT Scenario Books will be published in a timely fashion. If there's one thing PB are known for it's releasing books in a timely fashion.
I know it has taken a very long time to fulfill this Kickstarter, and for that I am very sorry. More sorry than some of you may be able to imagine. But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017. Not only that, but we want to make it amazing. Our Kickstarter backers and fans have waited so long for RRT Wave 2, that if we can make improvements we want to do so. We have been frustrated by many aspects of production that clash with what we know would make a superior product. Moreover, we want to offer organized play support, scenario books, and the next several Waves of RRT products. We have never given up on our dream to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ amazing.
Anyone else reminded of South Park's BP Oil Spill We're Sorry! ad?
It's great that PB has such a strong dream for RRT because right now based on all the non movement and lack of minis the only thing RRT is looking like is yet another a pipe dream.
That is the real issue, kevin is living in a dreamworld and has not bothered to taake a reality check in years.
He is insulated from his customers by a clique of "yes" men who say everything he does is pure genius - see the gshing praise fior the latest Dead Reign expansion were one tells him he has reiivented the zombie genre.
Sadly the truth is plainer than ever, he is stalling for all he is worth because he knows that at this moment in time even if all the pieces of the process were in place, he cannot afford to make wave 2 and even if by some miracle he did, he certainly could not hope to distribute it to us backers.
So he waffles and then as usual takes his eye off the balll and waxes lyrical about some other firms upcoming kickstarter ( as if we did not know his greedy fingerprints are al over it).
Sad that even after all these years he still cannot show off the masters for all the models (part counts do not matter Kev) and seems to have conveniently forgotten about the resin pieces. You would think if one thing coulld help it would be to show off the master of the Monster, but no that is being sensible, not Kev's biggest asset.
Ah well, we shall all see in another six months when he deigns to update us again.
I expect I'm preaching to the choir, but as I'm sitting around bored and I don't want to assemble/paint more battlepods. . .
We have been frustrated by many aspects of production that clash with what we know would make a superior product.
We lack the funds to produce wave 2. (or we haven't been able to get any quotes within a range of what we can afford with remaining funds)
Moreover, we want to offer organized play support, scenario books, and the next several Waves of RRT products. We have never given up on our dream to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ amazing.
next several Waves? Does this mean wave 2 (if it even comes into existence) is getting split into more waves?
We are working on something exciting right now that, if it pans out, could change everything and help us bring you RRT Wave Two by the end of 2017.
Rifts Board Game. Because if it takes off, it could like revitalize PB with an injection of funds. Somehow, I get an odd sense of deja vu.
Case in point, we had pretty much resigned ourselves to being unable to significantly lower the part count in the RRT game pieces. However, we are suddenly readdressing that as we explore new possibilities that have surfaced. In fact, I have spent most of the week on this very matter. We are working on all of this with the desire to bring you something great, not just crap it out to be done with it.
Given that it's been CNY. This seems like either it's a lie or they're looking at production options outside of China. If there's any truth to it, this also pushes their timetable out past 2017. I don't suppose they'd have the nerve to print and package the cardboard pieces on DriveThru RPG and send that out as wave 2?
And the rest is just pointless filler. Scenario books are useless without Wave 2. The Ghost Fleet stuff even more so without any new miniatures. It'll take years if ever before the Ghost Fleet RPG books come out and then add in a few more years for the miniatures.
Seems like this update is a weak attempt at damage control for the upcoming Rifts kickstarter.
Re: Funds: That's a strong theory. They were accused of being out of cash (among many things) and in response they pointedly noted they had not mismanaged the funds... which is totally not the same thing/what most people were asking. They skipped a bunch of people asking if they could even do it to focus on like one dude who asked if they had bought boats or new houses.
Re: Waves: I suspect he's referring to the 3 series. There was talk (in the long long ago) about doing the second and third series as minis as well (6-7mm tall Cyclones and whatnot).
Re: Rifts BG: But how could that be, it's Carmen's project, all his, he already paid the licensing! :-P
Re: Cardboard: I can't see them wasting time or money on that kind of 'technically...' sort of solution. Nobody but the most devout would take it as anything but an insult.
Re: Damage control: Yuuuuuuuuup. It couldn't be any more a "we feel this is contractually obligated, and so we're going to do the bare minimum" if they tried.
I do look forward to them soon returning to the name of the fething project being longer than the "info" they provide about it.
Re: Funds: That's a strong theory. They were accused of being out of cash (among many things) and in response they pointedly noted they had not mismanaged the funds... which is totally not the same thing/what most people were asking. They skipped a bunch of people asking if they could even do it to focus on like one dude who asked if they had bought boats or new houses.
did anyone even say they spent the money on boats and cars? as it goes that was when I grew very suspicious PB was out of money when they were making excuses that the money was not spent on other things. (well confirmed it for me anyway)
There is the odd guy that pipes up now and again spouting about "cars and vacations blah blah" but they are rare (there was one in the new updates comments section but just the one)
Considering WHO told me they were out of money and HOW he knew about it....yeah they have no money.
And they are showing more and more circumstantial evidence that it isn't just out of money for this project either...
The past month has had them basically blame thier printer for not giving them a delivery date on the newest Rifter....something that I have never seen happen before as it I has ALWAYS been "book is at printer, book will ship sin 2/3 weeks" but this time it was "uh.....printer hasn't told us when yet even though it is at the printer"
That indicates one of two things......they lied that it was at the printer (possible but unlikely as that would be a new low even for them) or it was at the printer but the printer refused to the work until a payment of some kind was received.
Considering just how LITTLE was actually done last year (4 Rifters, 1 of which was a late production from the previous year and 2 actual books)....I lean towards the second option.....mind you I have my own theory about what may be really happening at present at Palladium and for the future.
jaymz wrote: There is the odd guy that pipes up now and again spouting about "cars and vacations blah blah" but they are rare (there was one in the new updates comments section but just the one)
Considering WHO told me they were out of money and HOW he knew about it....yeah they have no money.
And they are showing more and more circumstantial evidence that it isn't just out of money for this project either...
The past month has had them basically blame thier printer for not giving them a delivery date on the newest Rifter....something that I have never seen happen before as it I has ALWAYS been "book is at printer, book will ship sin 2/3 weeks" but this time it was "uh.....printer hasn't told us when yet even though it is at the printer"
That indicates one of two things......they lied that it was at the printer (possible but unlikely as that would be a new low even for them) or it was at the printer but the printer refused to the work until a payment of some kind was received.
Considering just how LITTLE was actually done last year (4 Rifters, 1 of which was a late production from the previous year and 2 actual books)....I lean towards the second option.....mind you I have my own theory about what may be really happening at present at Palladium and for the future.
well therein lies the issue if PB is truly living from hand to mouth or robbing Peter to pay Paul, then odds are this new RIFTs Boardgame will just be a a scam for them to get money to keep their lights on, and their puppet will dance a dance making those backers wait. so will PB implode if the boardgame does not fund? or will PB come up with a ruse saying well we were so close and we already got so much done, go ahead and send us money and we ill put the game out ourselves?
jaymz wrote: There is the odd guy that pipes up now and again spouting about "cars and vacations blah blah" but they are rare (there was one in the new updates comments section but just the one)
Considering WHO told me they were out of money and HOW he knew about it....yeah they have no money.
And they are showing more and more circumstantial evidence that it isn't just out of money for this project either...
The past month has had them basically blame thier printer for not giving them a delivery date on the newest Rifter....something that I have never seen happen before as it I has ALWAYS been "book is at printer, book will ship sin 2/3 weeks" but this time it was "uh.....printer hasn't told us when yet even though it is at the printer"
That indicates one of two things......they lied that it was at the printer (possible but unlikely as that would be a new low even for them) or it was at the printer but the printer refused to the work until a payment of some kind was received.
Considering just how LITTLE was actually done last year (4 Rifters, 1 of which was a late production from the previous year and 2 actual books)....I lean towards the second option.....mind you I have my own theory about what may be really happening at present at Palladium and for the future.
Want to share that theory?
Assuming they are out of money, what plans do they have to rectify that?
Well I was wrong about Kev update RRTKS. I was sure he would not update RRTKS until May 2017. I don't believe anything he say about having wave 2 done in 2017 4thQ.
That indicates one of two things......they lied that it was at the printer (possible but unlikely as that would be a new low even for them) or it was at the printer but the printer refused to the work until a payment of some kind was received.
Hmm. That reminds of a comic shop I use to visit many years ago. For a long time it did well but then in its final year before closing down shipments were always late, with the owner blaming the delivery truck, or the plane, printing delays, whatever. Until one time his wife got drunk while at lunch and came back and in front of all of us started yelling at her husband about how they were dead broke, it was all his fault and stuff now was always late because they were behind in their account with (Diamond?). So the comics didnt get delivered until they paid off some of their debt. Eventually they just shut down completely.
That indicates one of two things......they lied that it was at the printer (possible but unlikely as that would be a new low even for them) or it was at the printer but the printer refused to the work until a payment of some kind was received.
Hmm. That reminds of a comic shop I use to visit many years ago. For a long time it did well but then in its final year before closing down shipments were always late, with the owner blaming the delivery truck, or the plane, printing delays, whatever. Until one time his wife got drunk while at lunch and came back and in front of all of us started yelling at her husband about how they were dead broke, it was all his fault and stuff now was always late because they were behind in their account with (Diamond?). So the comics didnt get delivered until they paid off some of their debt. Eventually they just shut down completely.
Running a small business is not easy and thankless. I know from experience.
As for RRT Wave 2......... still nothing huh? Wake me when something happens.
Yeah, finished my usual rant at the Kickstarter.
I am sure it will be embarrassing to me later.
Rather sad really (PB not me...).
The only thought I have left for them is "Hurry up and go out of business.".
I have the TMNT game and I really like it.
Ton of single pose miniatures but reasonable in look.
The same license that PB had and did little with it.
Looking on the bright side: this is the best time EVER (last 3 decades at least!) for tabletop gaming.
I have never been so spoiled for choice with game systems that I like rather than just tolerate.
The sooner companies like PB can go away and stop being an irrelevant distraction, the better.
For those who pushed for Robotech as a tabletop game I have much to thank them for and they should make no apologies for what PB has or has not done: you did your bit.
Welp, I'll be in a corner for the next six months. Looks like Kevin and his minions are going all out to try to make Carmen's upcoming face plant into a success.
Whatever will I do? Certainly it's impossible for an adult with multiple credit cards to create a second Kickstarer account, right?
Six months in the corner. I'm sure I'll find a way to "back" Carmen's fiasco.
[MOD EDIT - Rule #1 - And please find a different way to express that sentiment - Alpharius]
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Merijeek wrote: Six months in the corner. I'm sure I'll find a way to "back" Carmen's fiasco.
[MOD EDIT - Rule #1 - And please find a different way to express that sentiment - Alpharius]
Okay, I suggested that Kevin had used the money for cosmetic procedures at NMI's request. After all, such a thing was not on Kevin's list of "things I totally didn't spend your money on."
If it is any consolation: the efforts here in curbing some of our more "interesting" language has allowed me to leave a nasty post at the Kickstarter and not get a "time out" (so far).
Though trying to criticize ideas and not get somewhat personal takes a bit more effort in this regard.
I REALLY dislike how about 1/3rd of the post is the ineffectual "update" and then the remainder 2/3rds is what amounts to an advertisement for what may very well be another product of "vaporware".
What a mess this kickstarter is, all due to what would amount to one person.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, I spoke too soon.
My account is "under review" at the Kickstarter so I can post nothing at the moment.
"Curse you Red Baron!" or is that NMI...
I have sent a message/feedback on the matter and hope they have mercy on my soul.
I DID feel like pushing things a bit further in what I had to say so this is some feedback anyway.
We shall see if any of the posts are deleted.
I feel like such a tough-guy now...
Having done so, I'm sure people who don't understand the Internet (you know who) are certain that their new Kickstarter is completely safe from being associated with the RRT gak show.
Alpharius wrote: Both of those dates are past the "We Will Tell You The Wave 2 News For Sure by (X)" date, right?
Oh you!
I swear you are trying to stir-up unrest despite being a moderator... I like it.
Well, I shall ponder my opening comments for that particular KS especially with my "time out" at this moment.
At least comments are not smacked down to the same criteria (or lack thereof) as the PB forums or Facebook pages.
I must bear in mind that a lack of funding for a project is taking money from the mouth of Kickstarter as well, so they may be a bit more strict while a project is being funded.
Ah well, I ordered some materials and parts to continue with the RRT project of my own "unseen" Wave2.
I have been shamed by others doing such good work, I am overdue to show some efforts or run the risk of being an RRT poser.
All kidding aside, I do think we should get the as promised 'definitive' Wave 2 PB Official Announcement *before* the Rifts Boardgame launches!
Should? Yes. Will? I wouldn't count on it.
They've already slid the date back from end of January to "in another month or so" from mid January. And it's not like Palladium have a reputation when it comes to meeting deadlines... Well... not a good reputation at least.
And given the lack of credibility and competence and articulation they've shown, even if they DO write another Update before the RiftsBG goes live (or potentially worse, while it's running), will anything short of "Manufacturing has started, and here are a whole lot of pictures of the first samples", satisfy anyone but the complete gomers that cheer on every announcement? Would it change anyone's mind, to just have more promises, even if kind of detailed? Because again, their credibility is shot.
As for Carmen, he's got this huge millstone around his neck, and while I don't think he's responsible for PB/RRT's woes, I find the complete redaction of his involvement to be more than a little suspect. But he's got to realize that while there's a base level of anger on the Kickstarter, volume and crowd size is directly tied in to how recently Palladium have posted. Most backers forget or ignore the Kickstarter except when attention is brought to it. So, an Update shortly before the release of his, or during the run, ESPECIALLY if PB are stupid enough to put out something less than exceptional and if they're moronic enough to advertise Carmen's project, is just going to be a Cat5 tornado of gak. I'll bet Carmen spends the next month or so before release alternately working on the initial release, and fervently hoping PB remain radio silent.
TLDR, Don't underestimate PB's ability to step on their own dicks, and do the worst possible thing, in the worst possible way.
Heck, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of "Hey, Wave 2 is postponed another year, but 2018, we promise! Also, check out the Rifts Boardgame Kickstarter! It's awesome!", the day of the new campaign's release. I don't EXPECT it, but with PB, I've stopped ruling crap out. It's an amazing and consistent level of incompetency these last 4 years.
I entirely agree with you. Regardless of how allegedly unconnected the two things are, with Carmen totally doing his own totally separate thing that shouldn't at all be conflated with RRT.
Realistically, I don't think they will, because they saw how Savage Rifts went and they know that enough of the KS backer base either doesn't care or is actively hostile to the critique.
It's almost political or religious in nature. Like the console wars of yesteryear; it's not logical, it's emotional. It's about how they feel, or pushing back against those with grievances, no matter how legitimate or reasonably expressed they may be.
Well, Savage Rifts did get about 80% of the backers and around 30% of the cash.
Not that these are astounding figures, or that there's a perfect 1:1 overlap in the Venn Diagram between Rifts fans and Board Game fans who might like a Rifts game, but I think high five to low six figures is pretty likely.
I mean, we've seen it all over; there are totally people who will support something just because doing so annoys other people. Fan Friends and some backlash support could go a fair ways.
But that's just idle speculation, obviously we don't know much about how it'll actually play out until it goes live.
I mean, the poll on the PB Forums isn't exactly going well, but even in this online world I don't think we can assume the PB Forums reflect the beginning and end of their support.
Alpharius wrote: After the Robotech RPG Tacitcs...debacle, it is hard to believe that they have many true Fan Friends left...
They do, though. There are enough people willing to donate money to them like they are a charity to keep them in business, and some of those people don't understand why backers weren't happy to do the same.
They have fans that donate writing to them just to see their names in print.
Fans that volunteer their time to work for the company, just to get to spend some minutes with Kevin.
Customers that will tell backers 'too bad', or mention how they don't care, or how we should have known better.
They have fans that are so angry at them that they will publicly criticise the company, but still buy every book that gets produced.
I wonder, if you were to use Kickstarter to produce a comic book based on the story of this Kickstarter, would you have to pay Palladium some kind of royalties?
I wonder, if you were to use Kickstarter to produce a comic book based on the story of this Kickstarter, would you have to pay Palladium some kind of royalties?
Not if you abstract it or call it a parody.
Though you'd probably want to check with a lawyer.
n815e wrote: They have fans that are so angry at them that they will publicly criticise the company, but still buy every book that gets produced.
I find this strange occurrence with many different companies and product.
I have a fair bit of GW40k stuff and in most instances I "hate" the game rules lately but like the models and the "majesty" of it all on the tabletop.
You get so invested in a thing that love it or hate it: it is part of your life.
This is sounding too much like marriage... Despite all the angry noises I make with Palladium, I am quite happy with the look of the game and with a few tweaks the rules run OK.
I think the difference here is providing a mixed message that you "hate" what they do (often or occasionally) but are willing to reward their bad behavior with money for fear of losing any good product they may get around to making.
I am not willing to do that.
I wonder if that is slightly different with those llikely to back the Rifts Boardgame.
From the scant facts we have it does not appear to be that groundbreaking or innovative, Carmen himself lines it up with the likes of Imperial Assulat. So no big impact there I would suggest.
Therefore the buyers are unlikely to be newbies drawn into the megaverse on the back of world class rules or miniatures, most likely they will already be fans of the Rifts rpg system. These I would suggest have been playing this system for decades are are "older" people - before you shout I am a golden oldie myself - with disposable income who have wanted a nice range of Rifts minis for a while and so are not just buying into Carmen's game - wanting minis for a fave system/tv show from the 80's sounds oh so familiar.....
These "fans" are not the most vocal on the net - PB's boards are testament to that but there is a core following who in a lot of cases seem oblivious to what has happened here - like Kev they play rpg games not push toys around.
I do not think it wil be as successful as the Savage Worlds crossover simply as that was also a rpg - and had its own fans for its system.
A modest return from KS will llikely- if left alone - allow Carmen to produce the game and given the potential low numbers of casts required , I would say potentially in a reasonable time.
The elephant in the room wiill still be Kevin, I just cannot see him resisting the urge to poke hiis nose in and cause havoc.
Asterios wrote: ugh bit the bullet and picked up 2 RRT boxed games for $20 complete with only 4 pieces built total. guess I can watch em burn
You will only feel a slight pain in the wallet but hear a great wailing in the distance: PB has a warehouse to empty, they are most displeased.
I would say the price is not a bad thing. I seemed to have collected some four of them and the adder boxes of stuff here and there.
Asterios wrote: ugh bit the bullet and picked up 2 RRT boxed games for $20 complete with only 4 pieces built total. guess I can watch em burn
You will only feel a slight pain in the wallet but hear a great wailing in the distance: PB has a warehouse to empty, they are most displeased.
I would say the price is not a bad thing. I seemed to have collected some four of them and the adder boxes of stuff here and there.
thing of it is by themselves their value is worthless, but paint em up and assemble them and they have some value, provided the paint job is decent.
Asterios wrote: thing of it is by themselves their value is worthless, but paint em up and assemble them and they have some value, provided the paint job is decent.
That is the challenge I find for myself: I think I need to tape/mask areas off to get nice straight lines.
On something that small it is easier than I thought to make them look like garbage with slight blobiness or a wobble in spots.
I must note: these observations I reserve for my own work, I feel I should know better and blame impatience for these imperfections.
Seeing ANYONE field models with paint on them at all makes me happy.
The nerve-wracking part is you paint everything first and when you are certain they are done: then shade.
There is no good way of going back for touchup without going back to the "block-painting" stage basically starting over.
Funny how the more I learn about painting the more I laugh and laugh about those who label their work as "pro-painted".
There is ALWAYS someone who can paint so well they make your work look like an amateur performing finger painting.
I made the mistake of handing a cousin of mine a miniature to paint and she is a trained artist.
To say I "hate her very fondly" is the best I can describe the end result of her "work" which she finished off with some comment "I need to paint in acrylics more, they are like the middle-ground of watercolor and oils." which she is more than proficient in.
So yeah, "Pro-painted" should go with a label like "BTM" meaning: "Better Than Most" if you cannot lower to the phrase "Tabletop standard" that varies wildly.
Speaking of which, I have some more miniatures assembled that need more "block-painting", worth probably zero to someone else, "priceless" to me.
Asterios wrote: thing of it is by themselves their value is worthless, but paint em up and assemble them and they have some value, provided the paint job is decent.
That is the challenge I find for myself: I think I need to tape/mask areas off to get nice straight lines.
On something that small it is easier than I thought to make them look like garbage with slight blobiness or a wobble in spots.
I must note: these observations I reserve for my own work, I feel I should know better and blame impatience for these imperfections.
Seeing ANYONE field models with paint on them at all makes me happy.
The nerve-wracking part is you paint everything first and when you are certain they are done: then shade.
There is no good way of going back for touchup without going back to the "block-painting" stage basically starting over.
Funny how the more I learn about painting the more I laugh and laugh about those who label their work as "pro-painted".
There is ALWAYS someone who can paint so well they make your work look like an amateur performing finger painting.
I made the mistake of handing a cousin of mine a miniature to paint and she is a trained artist.
To say I "hate her very fondly" is the best I can describe the end result of her "work" which she finished off with some comment "I need to paint in acrylics more, they are like the middle-ground of watercolor and oils." which she is more than proficient in.
So yeah, "Pro-painted" should go with a label like "BTM" meaning: "Better Than Most" if you cannot lower to the phrase "Tabletop standard" that varies wildly.
Speaking of which, I have some more miniatures assembled that need more "block-painting", worth probably zero to someone else, "priceless" to me.
well some of those so called "Pro-Painted" models I have seen are utter garbage and I would be ashamed to call them my own if they were, my models which turn out better then many so called "pro-Painted" are what I call table Top Standard at best, "Pro-Painted" models are ones I call very nice that you don't play games with, mine are done good but can be played with in games.
It has been well over three years since this game has funded, only about half of the promised rewards have been shipped, and Palladium has not shown any evidence of progress. I WAS a fan of Robotech, but the lack of progress on this game has pretty much killed my care of this fictional world. Sorry you chose a poor company to carry the IP into a game, but you may wish to revoke their license to prevent further damage to your property.
Their Reply
We're looking into a solution this year. We can't announce anything yet but we're hoping to have something concrete this summer.
megatrons2nd wrote: We're looking into a solution this year. We can't announce anything yet but we're hoping to have something concrete this summer.
Are you sure you did not contact Kevin by mistake?
It sure sounds like him...
I agree that the word "hope" is a very unfortunate choice in business plans (or lack thereof).
Anything I actually set out to do has very little need for hope: it just bloody happens or I have something more important to do that interrupts that work.
I am sure for most other people, results would not vary all that much.
So to not have something more concrete now but can wait for the summer is a choice.
RRT is obviously not even in the top 3 of importance or we would see some actual movement.
I tend to phrase my unhappiness letters with:
"I would just LOVE to spend a TON of money on your IP products but you just don't let me.
Why is my supply of mouth watering product not happening?
I have plenty of your old stuff... I want NEW!!!
You fix this and I will be more than happy to hand you my wallet!!!!
P.S. The newer stuff you made is nice and all but where is the cool stuff you said you would make?
I believe in you and I am waiting until that day.
- Kindest regards your super-fan".
Oh, that hurts to write.
A small piece of my soul withers and dies...
Hope got overhyped and became meaningless after Obama's first term. At least HG and PB are sort of catching up with the times.
HG's response sounds so much like what we've been hearing from PB and it's no wonder the two are associated with each other. They're both good at doing feth all with their IPs and have trouble delivering unless nearly all of the work has already been done and even then odds are good that they're going to muck it up.
If only these two companies would just die already and free up the IPs.
The RTT backers have hoped to get their stuff for the past 3 years and nothing...
I really think that with the non information and constant delays we are no closer to
getting our stuff this year as we were 3 years ago.
Harmony Gold is just a IP company, they get their money and don't care..just like
the lone ranger heroclix.. no one bought them but Disney got paid..
But looking at Kevin's E bay page apparently he invested heavily into Vintage star wars
figures.. We invest into his company to make the RTT product and he buys star wars
stuff... Maybe we should have done the same..
Today we should get another non update; no real surprises.. just him beating the drum
of how great the Rifts board game is going to be that he has nothing to do with..
"I would just LOVE to spend a TON of money on your IP products but you just don't let me.
Why is my supply of mouth watering product not happening?
I have plenty of your old stuff... I want NEW!!!
You fix this and I will be more than happy to hand you my wallet!!!!
P.S. The newer stuff you made is nice and all but where is the cool stuff you said you would make?
I believe in you and I am waiting until that day.
- Kindest regards your super-fan".
Oh, that hurts to write.
A small piece of my soul withers and dies...
"Coming Later in 2017 and 2018
Lopan™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Adventure Sourcebook
Lopanic Games™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG: Ghost Fleet Saga™ Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Wave 2 expansion packs
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Scenario Book One and events
Rifts® Sovietski™ World Book
Rifts® Haunted Tech™ Sourcebook – Rescheduled
Chaos Earth® First Responders
Splicers® Sourcebooks
Heroes Unlimited™ Sourcebooks
Nightbane® Sourcebook
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks
Rifts® World Books and Sourcebooks, including Rifts® New Navy, Rifts® Antarctica, and others.
And some big surprises coming this summer and fall"
They're already making the move to move it to next year. At least they didn't double down on this year for everything again........
"Coming Later in 2017 and 2018
Lopan™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Adventure Sourcebook
Lopanic Games™, a Palladium Fantasy RPG® Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG: Ghost Fleet Saga™ Sourcebook
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Wave 2 expansion packs
Robotech® RPG Tactics™: Scenario Book One and events
Rifts® Sovietski™ World Book
Rifts® Haunted Tech™ Sourcebook – Rescheduled
Chaos Earth® First Responders
Splicers® Sourcebooks
Heroes Unlimited™ Sourcebooks
Nightbane® Sourcebook
Beyond the Supernatural™ Sourcebooks
Rifts® World Books and Sourcebooks, including Rifts® New Navy, Rifts® Antarctica, and others.
And some big surprises coming this summer and fall"
They're already making the move to move it to next year. At least they didn't double down on this year for everything again........
They still list five books in the next 4.5 months, two (arguably three) of them from last year's "In the first six months of 2016" list. Given that they only got two books done for 2016, and the first barely inside 6 months, the second barely by EoY, and with it being declared they're actively spending time dealing with the Rifts Boardgame (but it's not them running it, pinky swear!), it's pretty much a given, I think.
The math is pretty simple. They started receiving PPP's for Wave 1 end of December 2013. They started receiving digital parts breakdowns around mid February 2014, test sprues mid April 2014, June 18 before they started Manufacturing, July 4th before they REALLY started Manufacturing, supposed to arrive August 8th (but incomplete, because they always were intending to GenCon it), ended up shipping end of August, REALLY started shipping start of October. And then there was the length of time to complete shipping, less said the better.
So, that's 9 months, give or take, start to finish, once they started receiving PPP's. And that was when everyone was excited and enthused, not weary and just wanting to get it over with. While yes, the production run will be smaller per unit (both because of what's necessary to fufill backer rewards and unlikelihood of overproducing for retail), there's approximately twice as many models that have to go through the development process. This will probably extend the timeline overall, but I'll be generous and call it a wash.
Nine months from now, is mid November. Assuming they start getting PPP's this week. So, until they start showing PPP's, the clock is paused.
Now, they COULD get stuff done faster, by shipping it piecemeal (run a few sprues to completion and ship those as they fill each container), but all that means is either having a big pile at PB, or more controversially, retailing it immediately as they wait on the rest of the runs to complete Kickstarter pledges. Because words have no meanings, and Backers First was a suggestion, not a promise.
The more I think of it, the more I think it's likely, if Wave 2 does see print. Because with what I see as the likely glut of stuff once Wave 2 delivers, it might be the only way they can get retail pricing in the first year or so. And because when it comes to PB, you can't go wrong betting on the option where they step on their own dicks.
The only thing I can think of that'd be worse, is them rushing through the approval process, and ending up with flawed sprues, whether it be misaligned parts, missing parts (oh, we didn't notice it was missing a torso!), poor flow controls (shortshotting) etc. That'd be peak Palladium. So put me down for a fiver on that happening.
They're so dedicated to their release schedule that they haven't even bothered naming their BTS sourcebooks. Or most of the others. Which is beyond hilarity.
"We don't know what we'll call it or what it'll be about, but we're totes doing a Heroes Unlimited(TM, BIATCH!) sourcebook this year.
Merijeek wrote: They're so dedicated to their release schedule that they haven't even bothered naming their BTS sourcebooks. Or most of the others. Which is beyond hilarity.
"We don't know what we'll call it or what it'll be about, but we're totes doing a Heroes Unlimited(TM, BIATCH!) sourcebook this year.
I don't know. I find this one to be the most ludicrous.
"Rifts® Heroes of Humanity™ ARSENAL – 96 or 128 pages"
So, you're about three weeks from going to the printer (Hell Followed took 3 weeks from going to the printer Nov20th, to arriving at PBHQ Dec9th) if they're to meet their schedule. And you still don't know a page count? Meaning you've got to either excise up to 25% of your work, or pad your existing work by up to 33%. And then get it editted, formatted, etc. No wonder PB have a reputation for being both slapdash as feth, and missing pretty much every timeline estimate they set.
You're assuming that there's some thought to these lists, and it's not just a case of Kevin's little minions copying and pasting the same crap month after month and year after year.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything from PB (except them continuing to do the worst thing in any given situations). Just pointing out the PB insistence on pretending they're handled in a competent manner, or that they're in any way important (except as a cautionary tale), continues to remain funny to me.
I had another look at the PBWU (my eyes tend to glaze over when I try and read it all at once), and I notice that even though Kevin has said he's only personally attending CoastCon in three weeks, and GenCon, there was "A lot of this week was devoted to convention arrangements" including Adepticon.
So it looks like he's schlepping Wayne off to deal with any disgruntled, and push RRT as if it's in some way relevant. Even though, six weeks out, there are no games listed under "robotech", "rrt" or "palladium". I'm reminded of the Jeb Bush "please clap" moment. That's how I see Wayne, sitting at the PB booth, with a pile of stock for an all but dead game, knowing Kevin will probably be sitting at home expecting him to return with a suitcase of cash.
They're also planning to attend the Alliance Trade Show. Given how little has been done for RRT in the last almost three years, anyone want to bet that they don't go solely to push the Rifts BoardGame? But totally nothing to do with Palladium! They swear!
Also, assuming words mean anything (and no, with PB, I don't count on it), they're also intending on going to "and others". Plural means at least two, which means again, Wayne schlepping off to some location to try and reinvigorate interest in this turkey, while Kevin sits at home and imagines the suitcase of cash that's coming to him. Because, after all, who WOULDN'T buy RRT, given it's massive following?
Ah well, still under "review" at RRT.
Nothing deleted so I have not been too bad.
Maybe I will be permanently on the status of "being worked on".
It would be oddly fitting.
I had intentionally kept my "name" as a link here since KS is mainly gaming for me.
I bet my review does not prevent me from investing in other KS's, they so love having their cake and eat it too.
I am sure the mods here would take the boots to me the same way "financially contributing member" or not: that is respectable.
I was working on some models for RRT last night, maybe I was spending too much time commenting and not enough doing.
Forar wrote: Realistically, I don't think they will, because they saw how Savage Rifts went and they know that enough of the KS backer base either doesn't care or is actively hostile to the critique.
Well, a big difference between Savage Rifts and Rifts: The Boardgame is the company behind it, although a good number of KS backers still think KS is a store.
I've noticed that new companies and companies with otherwise poor reputations (eg. Archon / Prodos) will still pull in 200K+ on a miniatures boardgame project.
Forar wrote: Realistically, I don't think they will, because they saw how Savage Rifts went and they know that enough of the KS backer base either doesn't care or is actively hostile to the critique.
Well, a big difference between Savage Rifts and Rifts: The Boardgame is the company behind it, although a good number of KS backers still think KS is a store.
I've noticed that new companies and companies with otherwise poor reputations (eg. Archon / Prodos) will still pull in 200K+ on a miniatures boardgame project.
Not sure what you mean by this, because while it's not a store in the traditional sense, it's not a charity either. You put in money, you're owed rewards, and if the Creator can't provide it, a refund, or a good explanation as to why not. While the legal protections are a lot more lax (mainly due to it being a legal grey area that hasn't been legislated yet), there's not a lot of difference mechanically between how a Kickstarter works, and how a store taking pre-orders does. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the argument "It's a donation!", just doesn't hold muster, by Kickstarter's own terms and conditions (even though again, the legal framework is still needing scrutiny). It's only a donation if you choose not to select a reward. That some Creators abuse it, is no different to illegal actions some real stores take too. It's just harder to challenge, until/if the courts catch up.
Hope I didn't come across overly harsh, but the "It's not a store!" argument is one that I fething loathe, especially when used to defend drekky companies abusing the system, like PB's "We're saying we're totally working on it, therefore you're not entitled to a refund!" bulldrek. It's also not an investment (because again, we would have certain legal rights then), nor is it seemingly not a mail-order, though the FTC's rules not seeming to see it that way yet. However, it doesn't exclude it either. Of the four exemptions listed, a Kickstarter is not typically, a "subscription service", nor "seeds or growing plants", nor "C.O.D.", nor subject to the "Prenotification of Negative Option Rule". Just because the FTC hasn't challenged PB despite them being in breach of refund rules (which they could argue Kickstarter supercedes), and the Shipment Representation/Option Rule (which they'd have a much harder time arguing).
Just for clarification, here's the pertinents of the Shipment Representation/Option Rule. All of this can be found in the FTC link above.
Shipment Representation requires a shipment date. Either specified (in this case, December 2013), or 30 days if no date is given. Failure to meet that date, brings up this clause.
"When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund. (this is the same as the KS T&C) If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order."
The Option Rule... well, it speaks for itself.
"In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
- a definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide a revised shipment date;
- a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund; and
- some means for the customer to choose to cancel at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card, toll-free telephone number, or website).
- the following information when you cannot provide a revised shipping date:
- - the reason for the delay, and
- - a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship the merchandise."
Again, just because it's not being enforced, doesn't mean that PB aren't in breach. Much like certain aspects of the internet when it comes to different laws regarding telecommunications took some time to sort through.
Sorry if that came across as ranty. It's a topic that I'd previously done a lot of research into after getting screwed more than once (but not more than twice, so far).
Kickstarter is a platform where you give money in expectations of getting a return. Many (most?) KS have the option to simply donate money without expectation of return. THAT is a donation.
Basically, anyone who chose any rewards in the pledge manager was not making a donation, but rather an investment. And people typically have to answer when investments go awry, especially where fraud of some sort is suspected.
It would be interesting to see how sketchy Kevin's business plan was going into the KS. Given how the original renders were not compatible with the mold maker's software, they cannot have gotten proper quotes before the KS started.
"Here's a place that can get it done to specification, for this price."
"Can we source it cheaper? *looks* This place says they can do it for pennies on the dollar! Cancel the other manufacturer we had lined up to start within 45 days of the campaign closing!"
Though, to be fair, the delay in plastics manufacture wasm't the only big deal in terms of it not being where PB said they were. Why? Because PB (and HG with their extensively delayed approvals, at least according to Kevin's statements) still took well past the end of 2013 to get all the paper/cardboard products finalized. When you're still writing the rulebook into January, you can't say you missed your deadline because the manufacturers aren't on the ball.
Well I guess it is good we try to rationalize this.
I cannot see any excuse for a plan to deliver the product to last this long.
I guess we have seen for years and recently that a lie worth saying once seems like truth when repeated enough.
If you must lie, doubling down is the way to go.
Genoside07 wrote: But PaPa Kevin promises he is working on RTT and we only
need to buy the Rifts Board game because he is not working on it.
As I said over on the Kickstarter Commentary...
#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."
But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!
#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."
But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!
At least he's consistent.
I think this is where I said we had objective evidence of that lying... speaking of which, I should see if I am still "under review" time-out.
I must say the artwork (model and page/card) looks good for the Rifts Board-game.
I am sure this will be much like the Savage Worlds KS where bringing up RRT will "sour their mellow".
Noticed a note there on Facebook:
Stephen Schneider: Take as long as you need. Take a long, as long, as you need. Still out 600 bucks for Robotech. So I'd rather wait until you know that you know that you have all your ducks in a row before I become a backer. Good Luck.
February 10 at 3:42pm
Rogue Heroes Studio: My thought exactly, I want all the basic work on the game completed be for I ever go to kickstarter, that way I only have to deal with the inevitable manufacturing issues that every kickstarter seems to face. With all the sculpting and art work completed we can go guns blazing into the manufacturing and deal with any problems without also having to wait on sculpting and art. The more things I can have completed pre-kickstarter the better!
Carmen does realize he is echoing a bit the RRTKS as it started?
I thought for best practices they are to show actual product a finished "prototype" and not just 3D renders?
I am rather, not sure if I am "impressed" is the word but that Stephen is even considering looking at this even though being out $600 from RRT.
Talk about turning the other cheek... a "better" person than I.
I did a trip down memory lane for a bit, I went back to 2013 and 2014 and read their weekly updates for RRT.
I copied and linked some stuff and then decided to delete most of those efforts... it will only enrage, trust me.
Having read so much I can see that the "enthusiasm" was minimal... always... it only perked up when it looked like they had something to sell.
I must say they can take a sale and run it for months, between the Christmas Surprise, their Spring Cleaning Sales, Open House and the Rifter I read about them one more time I may vomit.
See this post, it seems the most eloquent example of this:
Spoiler:
Palladium Books® Weekly Update – Nov. 26, 2014
By Kevin Siembieda
Happy Thanksgiving! To all of Palladium’s fans in the USA, Happy Thanksgiving. To everyone else, may your weekend be a pleasant one full of laughter and gaming. The Palladium crew have all worked so hard that I’m giving them the long holiday weekend off (Thursday through Sunday). I’ll probably pop in to do a little writing and editing on Bizantium, but I think I’ll take a couple days off too. Orders will, of course, continue to be processed and please don’t overlook Palladium Books when out shopping. We will be back on Monday rested and ready to ship out your Christmas orders.
News Briefs
* The Rifter® #68 is at the printer. It is done and is another issue packed with awesome material. Ships in a couple weeks.
* Bizantium and the Northern Islands™ comes out next; end of December or January release.
* Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is available in stores starting today, across the US and Canada. All of us felt a tremendous amount of responsibility in making Robotech® RPG Tactics™ something wonderful. It was not lost on us that Robotech fans, like you and us, had been waiting 25 years for a game like this. It is a tremendous honor that this responsibility has fallen upon our shoulders. We love Robotech®. We are long-time fans ourselves, so we know full well what this game deserves to be. I hope you like our humble attempts to bring you a fast, fun game and dynamic, detailed game pieces. * The Christmas Surprise Package is the best deal of the holiday season. Only 28 days to Christmas. Less for Hanukkah. And less to guarantee shipping to arrive in time for the holidays.
They announced sale of the RRT product prior to my receiving shipment in December.
Apart from being a lead rules designer and supposed FAQ guru - we saw what happenned there.
However, by the strictest sense it is true, he actual Kickstarter campaign, thesubsequent decisions on manufacturing and communications were not in his remit.
Trouble is if you stand next to sewage long enough the smell rubs off on you.
Carmen promises to have most work done and everything almost complete before the kickstarter starts..
Wasn't we promised during the RTT kickstarter that everything was about 98% done and only needed the
money to kick off production.
I wish the man well and hope he gets what he wants... Careful what you ask for.. you might just get it..
But not going to give the Rifts Board game a real look over until i see it in my FLGS;
Since the original RTT plastics were made, what else have they really produced since?? Digital content is all I can think
of and most is assembly instructions,painting guides and such...So no real cost to Palladium games since everyone working on it
is already on the payroll and most of it should have rolled out with the actual game.
- Say the kickstarter goes perfectly. So if their in-house guy manages to crank-out a bunch of miniatures, there is no excuse for RRT. Separation from PB may be key.
- Say the kickstarter goes the realm of RRT. Kickstarter would well and truly be dead to them (one would think).
- Actually I figured out one more scenario: it does not fund. That would be the unlikely event (if goal set stupid low) but would be a fine message for PB that this golden goose is done.
Carmen has made his bed with PB and I really have no sympathy for him.
He is an "enabler" for Kevin and will happily pull another RRT if it suited Kevin's purpose.
Heck, how many "pre-orders" have you seen sit for years on the PB site, that is evidence enough.
Talizvar wrote: - Actually I figured out one more scenario: it does not fund. That would be the unlikely event (if goal set stupid low) but would be a fine message for PB that this golden goose is done.
The problem with setting a low goal (anything less than say $100K), is it runs into the bigger problem of it it DOES fund.
RiftsBG funds at $50K, and assuming $100 backer levels, that's probably worse than it not funding. Because games like this run on an economy of scale. Running production on a "professional" boardgame for ~500 backers is just not going to be financially viable. Probably just the art and sculpt costs are going to be more than that, and production is based on volume. I remember Forar talking about calendars a friend of their's made, where the quantity ordered was X, and getting something like triple that number was literally dollars more. Not dollars per unit. Dollars total.
If Carmen doesn't set a realistic total for initial funding, hoping that a low initial target gets the "hype" thing happening, he's opening himself up to failure. I mean, even RRT. The initial goal was $70K. If that's all they'd gotten, there was no way they'd have done what they were initially offering. So... it could be an immediate disaster (fails to fund), a quick disaster (funds, but not enough to produce, and he admits and refunds), or any multitude of slow disasters. And as Tali said, even if it's a success for Carmen, all that's going to do is make PB look even worse.
- Say the kickstarter goes the realm of RRT. Kickstarter would well and truly be dead to them (one would think).
well Kevin could try to con Wayne into doing a kickstarter, but then me wonders how much Wayne already has in the company with the offices under his name and all.
Yeah, that happened. It was a couple of years ago, so the exact amount is a bit fuzzy, but as I recall, it cost like a couple hundred bucks for 300 prints, or that much plus $15 more for 1000.
Basically, a massive portion of the costs were in fees and set up, the materials, labor, and slot for production itself were minuscule in comparison.
Similarly, I've started a small side business making Challenge Coins for a Facebook group I'm a part of, and while the savings aren't quite the same, a similar effect is in place;
10 coins would cost me around $300 plus shipping
100 coins would cost me around $432 plus shipping
200 coins would cost me around $616 plus shipping.
Once the printer is set up or the mold is milled or the press is designed and the acrylic layout is arranged, most of it is done, punching out the sprues or coins or calendars is not that big a deal. A lot of it seems to be sort of the baseline fee "this is what it costs to make it worth our while to even set this gak up, the actual price per unit beyond that is peanuts".
I'm not saying this holds up in every situation or business ever, but given how often we throw around Economy of Scale in these discussions, it's always neat to me to see it in action.
The first run of coins I did I got 100, and they sold out pretty quickly. The second round I just bought into, I had 200 made, as they are new (the first were a repeat of a previous order), so while my price per unit dropped by $1.25, I'm also likely going to drop the cost charged to members similarly to help move these things.
It's been fun/interesting to actually take that up, front some money, get something neat made, set prices, sort out shipping, all that.
Morgan Vening wrote: If Carmen doesn't set a realistic total for initial funding, hoping that a low initial target gets the "hype" thing happening, he's opening himself up to failure. I mean, even RRT. The initial goal was $70K. If that's all they'd gotten, there was no way they'd have done what they were initially offering. So... it could be an immediate disaster (fails to fund), a quick disaster (funds, but not enough to produce, and he admits and refunds), or any multitude of slow disasters. And as Tali said, even if it's a success for Carmen, all that's going to do is make PB look even worse.
As Forar said, I was running on the assumption that a "bare minimum" order and it's various expenses and logistics would be determined which would be quite high in low volumes.
As the scale increases, the expense would be that much less so the risk is less (more margin).
So you are correct that if the bare minimum is set and that is exactly what gets funded, it would be a nail biter assuming of course he is not pulling a Pallaidum.
I can't speak to how most Kickstarters do it, but ordering units for backers and web sales and retail (if applicable) all at once seems sensible from that perspective. If they can get 1000 units for X and 10,000 units for 2x or 3x, hell yeah, efficiency abounds! Especially if they only need 2000 or 3000 for Backers, and the rest can be sold for profit through wholesale costs to distributors, or even better that sweet MSRP money from people who are willing to overpay for things for whatever reason.
Should the money specifically for retail stock come from personal finances over Kickstarter funding? Meh. I don't want to be blase about it, but for all the "OMG THEY OVER BOUGHT FOR RETAIL!" we go through now and then, the only reason it stands out is because it's a clusterfeth of a campaign. I'm sure Reaper and CMoN and Dwarven Forge and dozens of other mini/board game based campaigns do that, or make a token effort to keep finances separate, but again, it's more an issue because they (seem to have) fethed it up than the actual notion of procuring both at the same time.
Not to mention that most campaigns are explicitly aiming to go to retail. It can fall under the purview of the project and still be an overwhelming mess. Whether because they didn't get quite the savings they were hoping for (eg; boxes and expansions were obtained at a better deal, but they lost out yuuuuge on shipping or something), or even if they had a reasonable margin of error and the costs just ate it up (they have complained publicly in the past about the mold costs being much higher than anticipated, shipping in late 2014/mid 2015 probably ate a fair deal of their funds compared to what they took in mid/late 2013. They complained about having to redo the files because reasons, might've had costs there. They admitted to wasting a couple thousand (as I recall) on advertising for the Dec 2013 launch in trade magazines.
Those who have been paying attention should know I'm not defending their inaction, or positing benefit of the doubt. Simply contrasting what I have seen across dozens of campaigns and the last half decade or so, with what we see here. I doubt Bones 4 or KD:M 2 or whatever will have people demanding to see the exact breakdown of every last dollar. Because when it works out, even when heavily delayed, people generally don't think about it or care.
I think Morgan's right, there's probably a big grey area between the Rifts Board Game funding and actually being able to produce quantities cost effectively that will meet Backer needs and retail demand (if it exists).
Most manufacturers have a Minimum Order Quantity. They want 1.5-3k orders before they start the presses. There was one printer we talked to in the US that wanted 10k orders just to give us a quote.
The Cost of Goods per unit does drop as you increase order size, but not drastically. The big savings is in the logistics and fixed costs (like molds and punchboard tooling), amortized over a larger print run.
Being barely successful can be dangerous if the goal is set too low.
Nobody cares where retail stock funding comes from when the company filfills its obligation. When they take project money and gamble it on stock, then it is an issue.
n815e wrote: Nobody cares where retail stock funding comes from when the company filfills its obligation. When they take project money and gamble it on stock, then it is an issue.
Which appears to be well demonstrated.
To be clear, when the money is gambled on stock and there is still more production to pay for and fulfill.
That was the roll of the dice that was unforgivable.
Gambling on backer's money to spend on retail product and not ensuring they got production going on the remaining rewards.
The cost savings on economy of scale for ordering was an easy trap to fall into with no idea on retail/consumer demand.
No wonder it keeps looking like our fault (PB's viewpoint) where we would have what we wanted (that is the theory anyway) if we just bought more stuff!
BTW... Still under review at KS... complaints must have been piling up. Could KS flag people for "nuisance" reporting of people posting? I said things that were painful to read but not being a "jerk" according to their loosely defined rules. This may be a good thing, some sober second thought when the Rifts boardgame goes live may be the thing.
BTW... Still under review at KS... complaints must have been piling up. Could KS flag people for "nuisance" reporting of people posting? I said things that were painful to read but not being a "jerk" according to their loosely defined rules. This may be a good thing, some sober second thought when the Rifts boardgame goes live may be the thing.
nope just you since I've never been reported well under review
Genoside07 wrote: But PaPa Kevin promises he is working on RTT and we only
need to buy the Rifts Board game because he is not working on it.
As I said over on the Kickstarter Commentary...
#128, Jan 30 2014 "WAVE TWO Kickstarter Fullfillment – Fall, 2014 – The balance of ALL the remaining Kickstarter items should ship by October"
#167, Jan 14 2015 "Wave Two is coming in 2015."
#190, Jan 30 2016 "As we get into actual production and manufacturing for Wave Two this year, we will share plenty with you."
#196, Feb 4 2017 "But we are dedicated to getting Wave 2 done and in your hands by the end of 2017."
But they really mean it this time! Really! Why won't people believe them!
At least he's consistent.
I love the fact there is only 6 updates between jan 2016 and feb 2017 I guess you can only say "no really trust us this time we pinky swear this time!" so much..... and Jazz Hands....
The one thing tho, I feel like we dont bash Ninja Division enough, I mean according to papa Kevin its all their fault, and customs fault, and chinese new years fault, and the shipping company's fault, and the fan friends who didn't pledge enough's fault, and the people who didn't buy it at all the cons fault and Waynes fault for not pimping the Robotech name enough's fault. Anyone but Kevin's fault . I mean look at all those outside factors that a lot of other company's work with np, how could it be Kevin's fault?
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: I love the fact there is only 6 updates between jan 2016 and feb 2017 I guess you can only say "no really trust us this time we pinky swear this time!" so much..... and Jazz Hands....
The one thing tho, I feel like we dont bash Ninja Division enough, I mean according to papa Kevin its all their fault, and customs fault, and chinese new years fault, and the shipping company's fault, and the fan friends who didn't pledge enough's fault, and the people who didn't buy it at all the cons fault and Waynes fault for not pimping the Robotech name enough's fault. Anyone but Kevin's fault . I mean look at all those outside factors that a lot of other company's work with np, how could it be Kevin's fault?
Five Updates really. The two in March was just because Wayne screwed up the first by putting it out prematurely, and was correcting. But I suppose if you take too fine an analysis of things, you could probably lose another one or two for providing zero information, at least for the project in question.
As for blame to Ninja Division, <not sure if serious.gif>. Some people maintain that ND are deserving of significant blame. Others have speculated theories that absolve them. As ND haven't said what's happened, nor has any actual information come out, it's hard to know to what extent they're actually responsible. Personally, I'm of the belief in the latter, but only because of anecdotal information.
That being, at least,
* ND appearing to be a subcontractor rather than a partner (that it's not linked at all by ND, and their complete distance from the project).
* PB's treatment of prior subcontractors (several have significant horror stories of meddling and incompetence)
* ND's several successes since then that would make RRT an exception, rather than a rule.
* PB's lack of success since then where they promise big and fail to deliver (8 books promised in the first half of last year, 1 released on time, one delayed an additional 5 months).
* Most importantly, as far as I'm concerned, Kevin says it's ND's fault.
If there was little other information, that last one would be enough. If Kevin said the sun rose in the west, I'd still want to check before I took his word for it. And with noone at ND speaking, and with only Kevin and his puppet making these assertions, it's hard to take those statements seriously. Until I see compelling information that comes from a source that isn't a PB employee or PB flunky, or seeing ND do something as catastrophic as what RRT has become, I'll probably remain of the belief that while ND are a part of this, they aren't a significant (and especially not the overriding) factor in the disaster that is RRT.
The under review by Kickstarter continues...
My posts are still there...
I sure like being in limbo...
It is only conjecture but NMI? You being "bad" again?
In other news, I am trying Krylon Fusion on Shapeways plastics and seeing if that works well for removing some fuzzy elements of the "White, Strong & Flexible".
Funny how hacking up a one piece "mono-pose" model is preferable to putting together a 20 piece mono-pose model.
Think I need to get together a "gravity bomb" dedicated add-on VT squadron.
Something I wanted to do for a bit, yes I am choosing to have dedicated WYSIWYG missile / bomb load-outs on my VTs.
Not sure if I want any more Destroids other than some character ones made-up.
The double beat-stick Spartan is wanted for sure.
One squad (4) of each type should is what I have made-up and should be enough.
VT's with the various head changes will be interesting if I continue with my glued-on parts (3 models for "1" guy... sheesh!).
Lots of pods certainly seems to be the easier route but you know I need an even points cost of opposing forces.
February 16,2017 update Robotech® RPG Tactics™, and all things Robotech®, is one of our biggest, most demanding projects, as we look toward getting Wave Two into manufacturing as well as releasing additional support for the game line. We are working on some exciting new possibilities.
Well at least Kevin sees his kickstarter customers as "demanding" when we have already paid for a product he should have produced three years ago..
So, Carmen posted (first post here) to the RRTKS Comments about his new project. To keep this on topic, I'll keep this confined as much as I can to RRT and PB related issues rather than specifics to the new game itself. This was also Carmen's first comment on RRT.
"So first off, I am a backer of this project too just like you, and I’m in the same boat as all of you."
Most of the backers in the same boat aren't listed as designers or writers in the credits for RRT. That's a big difference, and while I know Carmen doesn't want to be tied to RRT, his continual insistence that he had nothing to do with it, kinda stinks. Sure, he's unlikely to be responsible for the delays, but to pretend you weren't a part of the team when the project founders, just comes across as Palladiesque. Wonder if he'd be keeping this quiet on the matter if RRT was a success?
"In the meantime, I have to get my Kickstarter going if I am going to meet my contractual obligations to Palladium Books and try to make back at least some of the money my wife let me invest in the Rifts: Board Game."
Nice to know that Kevin holds others to their contractual obligations while continuing to completely abdicate his own. That Carmen is being rushed into this while RRT remains in purgatory (as well as the backlog of promised RPG books), is just setting him up for issues in the campaign. As I saw in another project (Shadows of Brimstone), even people who weren't disgruntled from the first campaign, were skeptical of backing the second campaign, because the first hadn't been completely fulfilled yet. I can see there being more than a few backers of RRT who might withhold funding the new game while RRT remains outstanding.
"Not to throw stones but the Ninja Division chose the wrong manufacturer for the RRT, they forgot to charge shipping on the Kickstarter and made some other errors (in my opinion), while they meant good, mistakes were made."
As I said in my post above, regarding blame, I'd like this from a non-PB source. That the middle part is wrong (shipping), doesn't help his case. Now, you can argue shipping was underfunded, but it was charged for. At the time, Kickstarter custom was to include shipping to the US in the base cost, and then just charge shipping for international orders, that was all done. And this was explained during the campaign and in the time leading up to the Pledge Manager.
"I will simply step away and let it burn. I am under no obligations to help with the RRT but I DO have the contacts and knowledge to help fix it." Regarding RRT Backers causing trouble for RiftsBG.
But I didn't think you were a part of RRT, Carmen? That you were "in the same boat". Sorry, issuing threats like this, to people who have already written off the project, is just going to encourage them. And using that to punish the vast majority of backers who are unlikely to know or care about your project, is Kevin level of petty.
"Of course, you will be damaging Rogue Heroes, not Palladium, but it might make you feel better."
Well, except for the fact that Carmen admitted that beyond a licensing fee, PB get a royalty from each game sold (allegedly after the initial costs are recouped). If that's true, sinking this project DOES hurt PB. It cripples Rogue Heroes, but to argue there's no downside for PB (especially as it'd also hurt their branding and the value of Rifts as an IP), is plain wrong.
As expected, the response from the BtC (Backers that Comment), was less than hospitable. And then Carmen getting into it with them. He probably should have not engaged, but then, he probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. Things are definitely looking to be interesting, in a "plane crashes into train plowing into a bus" type way. As someone with no interest (or antipathy) towards Rifts, it's definitely looking like I'm going to need more popcorn.
"I don't know what the delays are with the Robotech KS, since I have been too busy building my own game to look into it. But I wanted to lay all the cards on the table, if the RRT backers attack my future KS I will never help find out what is the problem with the Robotech RRT and I am in a position to find out if I want to. . But I read nothing but posts here how everyone wants to kill my KS (my personal dream) and if that happens I hope the RRT burns. But if everyone plays nice I will do my damnest to fix these delays. I was just being frank and direct."
Well he just guaranteed that I'm going to put up my one dollar to troll the comments. He blatantly says he can do something about RRT, but only if we fund his project?
ThaneCawdor wrote: Do you have a (preferably screen-shotted) source for that quote?
I suspect that will be in a lot of complaints to KickStarter on the RIfts game launch
Merijeek wrote: Oh, isn't that cute? Carmen will now show up to the KS comments now that a number of people can't post anymore.
Well, it's not like the remaining people aren't readying the tar and feathers...
Maybe he really bought his own press and thought most people were just fine with thieves? Maybe it was a clever plot by Kevin's henchman and the housecleaning wasn't nearly as thorough as he was led to believe? Petty politics among bottom feeders can get pretty nasty.
I know he is a small company, but most people know as a company to stay neutral on any given situation.
When corporations stocks plummet over any bad news; does Carmen think this his helping his cause?
I am sure he will get backers, but I am sure the quality of the work will be on Palladium level where it looks
like it was done thirty years ago.. And we have a clear history of Kevin's meddling and hijacking projects.
So, If a true crazy happens.. we might get it before RTT
With the discussion earlier about price dropping for more order quantity; do you think they are combining
RTT and Rifts to try to get better pricing. Wouldn't surprise me if they were doing it that way.. And paying the
bills with Carmen's money. If this goes bad.. I see a friendship ending..
Carmen's words come across as empty promises and threats as I remain skeptical that he'd be able to influence or impact for better or worse at this point.
Even giving him the benefit of the doubt*, he's clueless if he thinks that running a successful board game KS will give him the clout to fix the clusterf--k that RRT has become.
* And even this is difficult. I find it hard to believe that he has been associated with PB for so long and not realize the problem is Kevin. At best, he's a deluded enabler who strokes Kevin's ego. At worst, he's actively involved in the crap that's going on and lying about it.
Posting on the RRT comments section was a terrible decision on his part as I don't see any way for him to come out a winner short of providing a timeline for Wave 2 fulfillment and solid evidence backing it His best bet would be to distance himself from PB and rebrand the RBG as something else and later do a Rifts expansion or adaptation at some point in the future.
Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough.
I still think your time out, Meri, was more based on the 'colourful' way you express yourself than simply quelling dissenting voices. Or at least more easily applied.
Maybe mine will arrive shortly and I can join you in the corner.
Jorel was obnoxious for months and quarters, but it took a number of reports and him going unhinged a few times for something to stick.
With this new 'late April' starting target, it becomes even more plausible that they just copy the start/end dates for RRT for a little extra bit of trolling.
Looking through the comments again, I noticed that another fan-friend stating that he's trying to secure rights to one of Palladium's IPs. This seems at odds with PB's iron fisted control of their IP. Could it be that Kevin is seeing that the end of PB is near and he's trying to farm out what he wants to save to some puppets?
My thought is that perhaps Hollywood didn't renew their options for a Rifts film , which has always been Kevin's pie in the sky hail mary of seeing his company make it to the big leagues. In recent past he's allowed the Savage Worlds RPG which is ok because it's just another rpg product which is their bread and butter, but a board game implies there may have been a shift in the movie option realm because a board game would be in the same realm of rights for toys, which any sort of potential movie investor would want locked down as it's a huge money maker. He'd never risk farming out IP rights that could place him in conflict with anyone holding film options. Which could be an indicator that those options weren't renewed as he typically likes to crow about it in his murmurs as it being the big thing in the works. Not claiming to have any inside knowledge just speculating given the past behavior and seeing a new shift.
Since they like to crank out pencils cups and bags, they should totally do a PB branded toilet paper with Kevin's smiling face printed on it as I know a lot of people who'd buy it.
As expected, the response from the BtC (Backers that Comment), was less than hospitable. And then Carmen getting into it with them. He probably should have not engaged, but then, he probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. Things are definitely looking to be interesting, in a "plane crashes into train plowing into a bus" type way. As someone with no interest (or antipathy) towards Rifts, it's definitely looking like I'm going to need more popcorn.
more like a jumbo garbage dumpster of popcorn since it is now going to get very ugly.
Forar wrote: Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough.
I still think your time out, Meri, was more based on the 'colourful' way you express yourself than simply quelling dissenting voices. Or at least more easily applied.
Maybe mine will arrive shortly and I can join you in the corner.
Jorel was obnoxious for months and quarters, but it took a number of reports and him going unhinged a few times for something to stick.
With this new 'late April' starting target, it becomes even more plausible that they just copy the start/end dates for RRT for a little extra bit of trolling.
Forar wrote: Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough..
Well, yes and no. There still has to be some sort of fig leaf to put on their reasoning. As a Canadian, your natural politeness would provide some natural insulation. After all, it may be NMI running to Ma Kickstarter to report people, but clearly there has to be some eyeballs involved rather than PBs preferred rubber stamp method.
And don't forget they got Talivzar too, and compared to my level of color, he hasn't even achieved greyscale.
Forar wrote: Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough..
Well, yes and no. There still has to be some sort of fig leaf to put on their reasoning. As a Canadian, your natural politeness would provide some natural insulation. After all, it may be NMI running to Ma Kickstarter to report people, but clearly there has to be some eyeballs involved rather than PBs preferred rubber stamp method.
And don't forget they got Talivzar too, and compared to my level of color, he hasn't even achieved greyscale.
Wow, RRTKS comments are a flurry of activity.
Carmen has rather put his foot in it, very badly I might add.
One rule I made for myself was "Do not argue with customers: you do not win.".
More focus on what IS being offered would be key.
That weird "threat" of not helping out RRT pretty much doomed any logical argument he could have made.
Still on "review" at the KS so relegated off to bystander.
It certainly is hurting more now than it would have any other time.
Nothing of mine has been taken down.
I just needed to put this key blurb from Carmen here:
Spoiler:
So where does that leave us, Rogue Heroes and the RRT backers I mean? Well, YOU as the other RRT backers have two choices. Either you can do everything in your power to try and kill the Rifts: Board Game OR you can allow me the chance to complete my Kickstarter in peace.
If you take option one, I will take all steps to prevent it, but calmly and by the rules. But I probably won’t ask for you to be banned unless you get too out of hand. But I believe you would be fighting an uphill battle anyway since all of Palladium loyal Rifts fans and many of the new Savage Rifts players REALLY want me to succeed. After all, Rifts hasn’t ever had really good miniatures, it had the old metal ones, but not the awesome figures we will be producing. And if you chose this route I will write you off, when Kevin asked me to help, as happened in the past on Wave 1, I will simply step away and let it burn. I am under no obligations to help with the RRT but I DO have the contacts and knowledge to help fix it.
Or you can take option two. I don’t ask anything from you, I don’t ask you to help or support me, or give me money or do anything at all. All I ask is please be decent individuals and give me room to succeed or fail on my own. And let those Rifts fans support me as they please. If you do this, basically do nothing, I will be all in for you. Even if my KS crashes and burns I will put my efforts into getting this gak straightened out!
While I cannot divert KS funds from a Rifts KS to the Robotech KS, or get anyone a refund. There is a lot I can do that will get things moving along again. I can help Palladium get the RIGHT manufacturer for Robotech and give them the advice and knowledge they are missing.
I have answered repeated questions on the Palladium forums about my project, including coming close to breaching my contract and NDA to be as honest and open as I can be. I want to show you that Rogue Heroes is different and that I can try and make a difference here. Which is also why I am posting here and will listen to the torrent of crap that will surely come of it.
After all, who else is helping? Contacting the FTC, or the Michigan Attorney General, or the Michigan BBB, or anyone else – who cares? According to Kickstarter they (PB) are doing their due diligence in working toward the goal of completing the project, as far as the law goes he has done nothing wrong (in my opinion, if I am wrong, invest in a lawyer). After all, it does say in the Kickstarter guidelines that the estimated delivery times are just that estimated, a project creator can take as much time as they require to complete the project as long as they work on it.
So I have two options... really?
Try to "destroy" his project or "leave him in peace": I think neither is the proper option.
I believe that to have not been paying attention to RRT would be EXTREMELY stupid to do if he is interested in launching his own KS.
To say he can offer many things to help RRT along ONLY IF! we all play nice.
I feel badly lied to in this regard, is it just me?
So to criticize his involvement in other projects, that his game is tied to an IP involving individuals we would not be "decent" human beings?
This is money and business.
His history and ties to other companies are extremely relevant and would be silly to pretend otherwise.
He cannot have his cake and eat it to: if he is successful it will magically sway Keven to follow his lead?
It would most likely cause the opposite affect.
He has no say in Palladium yet claims he may/could if he so feels compelled?
He appears to be a scholar in Kevin speak of his own right.
Getting permission from his wife to put money down on a board game based on a company that is owing for a KS and backers "baying for blood" is not sounding like a thing I would want to forward to my wife (she has an MBA) she would tell me it would be dumb use of our money.
Anyway, Carmen is a wee bit of a bull in China shop.
I really would not want to give him any of my money.
I would like to explore what board-games he got money on and see if his successful pedigree is as rosy as he portrays.
I am seeing so much talk of plans and what he can offer but it so BADLY begs the question: why had he not demonstrated it earlier?
I feel I am in a good position where I am "happy" with stuff I am getting / making (now) so I am only left with the feeling that consumers need to be better informed and protected from the likes of Palladium Books and those who prescribe to their methods.
I REALLY hope Carmen is not that way, but little he wrote is dissuading me otherwise.
Since they like to crank out pencils cups and bags, they should totally do a PB branded toilet paper with Kevin's smiling face printed on it as I know a lot of people who'd buy it.
No.. you don't want that... Because he would go with the cheapest material possible and end up causing a bad rash... And that's one place you don't want a bad rash..
Hello everyone
First thank you Jay D. you were right. I simply did not believe the level of HATE here.
I have tried laying my cards on the table and showing a way I can help you and you can help me. But reasoning things out here is obviously not going to work, so I will just take the other advice I was given by a few of you here and just walk away. I will have no further input here. I will continue on with my KS regardless of the risks and I hope Kevin resolves the RRT in the near future. But I will not bother trying to talk it out with you anymore or returning to this page.
Thank you and goodbye.
Carmen
Oh, look, he's a victim! I swear, the only way he could be more like Simbieda is through plastic surgery and a name change.
After all, just like Simbieda he seems to think of "hope" as a business plan. I'm sure it'll go swimmingly.
Forar wrote: Let's be real, any 'housecleaning' that didn't include me wasn't remotely thorough enough..
Well, yes and no. There still has to be some sort of fig leaf to put on their reasoning. As a Canadian, your natural politeness would provide some natural insulation. After all, it may be NMI running to Ma Kickstarter to report people, but clearly there has to be some eyeballs involved rather than PBs preferred rubber stamp method.
And don't forget they got Talivzar too, and compared to my level of color, he hasn't even achieved greyscale.
That's true. Tal doesn't usually bring quite the same heat or... creativity.
Hello everyone
First thank you Jay D. you were right. I simply did not believe the level of HATE here.
I have tried laying my cards on the table and showing a way I can help you and you can help me. But reasoning things out here is obviously not going to work, so I will just take the other advice I was given by a few of you here and just walk away. I will have no further input here. I will continue on with my KS regardless of the risks and I hope Kevin resolves the RRT in the near future. But I will not bother trying to talk it out with you anymore or returning to this page.
Thank you and goodbye.
Carmen
Oh, look, he's a victim! I swear, the only way he could be more like Simbieda is through plastic surgery and a name change.
After all, just like Simbieda he seems to think of "hope" as a business plan. I'm sure it'll go swimmingly.
Your outer voice sure sounds like my inner one.
My more evil side is thinking he is taking his toys and going home before a key few people are ABLE to comment on the KS back to him.
Plus, what he was observing as HATE seems awfully thin skinned, it was surprisingly civil for a forum lightly moderated (for some it seems).
I am a bit concerned with the comment of "reasoning things out".
Trying to make the argument of how the RRT folk can benefit if we support his product was a bit of a fallacy.
Not "bother trying to talk it out... or returning to this page" is a heck of a way to leave things for people he is trying to convince.
Sure there are a vocal few that will take the boots to you ... "man-up" guy.
Remember the largely silent thousands he needs to appeal to that he is choosing to convey a very negative message.
He initially made the statement of pretty much "taking it on the chin" and then this ends with a message around the line that the negativity was more than the guy could handle.
Sure he can be sullied a bit with his Palladium association.
His choice of wording is rather painful for someone who spends a fair bit of time writing.
I think the part that really slams the door for me is the short sighted way he handled the "discussion".
I am still unsure what he was trying to achieve despite what he claimed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @n815e: Good post at the KS about his not toughing it out in the forum could be bad news when it comes to toughing it out through a Kickstarter.
I agree that a certain tenacity is needed to see things through to the end.
A clear "vision" is helpful as well.
I think I would have wished Carmen well MUCH more if he had the strength of will to create something of his own.
I hate to say that basing something on Rifts barely gains any more attention than an unknown.
He reminded me a bit of Kevin, expecting the adoration of the crowds (or at least a few) and instead faces hostility and people critical of the "amazing" thing he is doing and being utterly shocked that it happened.
The attitude of "that was then, and this is now" is asking for some amnesia that only benefits him.
How on this green earth is he going to do anything different?
That is the big question.
When given the chance, I would be genuinely interested in his plans.
At the very least, his long suffering wife deserves that courtesy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking about Kickstarter in general:
In other news our good friend had not shown up for the "Savage Worlds Rifts" folks.
They were doing very well there and seems to have a fair bit of good will.
If I were him I would have been involved in that KS.
I hate to say if I was into RPGs of late, it would have been terribly tempting to be able to play the Rifts universe in a usable fashion.
They are in about the perfect stage for wanting a few miniatures for their characters.
My Battletech game is moving along nicely on the PC.
If Palladium EVER wanted to see their world in a game Harebrained Schemes are the perfect guys to do it.
The game engine Shadowrun uses could easily fit their rules in it and after the various materials fleshed out, there is not writing needing to be done.
Just port a few 3D models from Carmen and that could be trucking along...
I got some miniature holders for painting coming in a couple months.
So I can paint a few more RRT models, not much hope on Rifts ones but I have been surprised before.
I have some Terraform models for my various miniatures to fight around in a month or two for delivery.
Kickstarter has got some money out of me despite RRT being my first... ... I just am unable to comment on ANY OF THEM while on review.
Did I say I was on review?
Is it possible to suffer from withdrawal symptoms when unable to comment on a forum?
Unfortunately you guys are suffering the brunt of this with a wall of text.
n815e wrote: He could have done things so much better if he didn't go the route of threatening us.
He could have gotten sympathy and support.
It was such a poor choice on his part.
You do that right?
Feel sympathy for those who are unable to see the social faux-pas they do?
No idea of the damage made by some ill-chosen words.
I feel that initially.
I then think a bit more of the sincerity of his words and what us as consumers mean to him.
I then thank the powers above that the person is not clever enough to hide what he REALLY feels.
I suspect threatening others is not far from his personality seeing how readily he got to it.
I feel more sorry for those who have found Palladium IP something they enjoy and continue to suffer through a series of petty dictators.
n815e wrote: Yeah, I feel bad for people and want to help them.
Some people can't be helped, though.
Dealing with any problem is just like trying to move a mountain sometime. Every day you shovel a little and eventually you will see great progress.
With Robotech Tactics in the past years we have seen nothing but hollow words.
I also feel sorry for Kevin with his poor mind set of not grasping what he this project is doing to his company. Decades ago he was Author, Artist
and publisher that was producing games to be considered some of the best at the time. Now his legacy is going to be a convoluted game using
very outdated rules system and the Robotech Kickstarter fiasco. Most will only know him as a laughing stock and to others considered a simple charlatan.
But no one did this to him, all this mess is from his own hand. If he would originally have focused on the issue and dealt with it, we wouldn’t have this
discussion and might be excited about the Rifts Board game release.
But with every non-update he does, I truly pity him, there is no trust in what he is saying. Only trying to convince everyone he is not lying this time about anything he says.
It's very hard to give money to someone you don't trust.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And its kind of looking like theyre already laying the groundwork for blaming the haters in the event things go south.
Well, that'll teach the cult to never communicate outside a completely filtered environment.
Maybe Carmen is actually more intelligent than we give him credit for. Maybe he just intentionally sabotaged the project because he eventually figured out that getting into bed with Kevin is financially suicidal.
So where does that leave us, Rogue Heroes and the RRT backers I mean? Well, YOU as the other RRT backers have two choices. Either you can do everything in your power to try and kill the Rifts: Board Game OR you can allow me the chance to complete my Kickstarter in peace.
If you take option one, I will take all steps to prevent it, but calmly and by the rules. But I probably won’t ask for you to be banned unless you get too out of hand. But I believe you would be fighting an uphill battle anyway since all of Palladium loyal Rifts fans and many of the new Savage Rifts players REALLY want me to succeed. After all, Rifts hasn’t ever had really good miniatures, it had the old metal ones, but not the awesome figures we will be producing. And if you chose this route I will write you off, when Kevin asked me to help, as happened in the past on Wave 1, I will simply step away and let it burn. I am under no obligations to help with the RRT but I DO have the contacts and knowledge to help fix it.
Or you can take option two. I don’t ask anything from you, I don’t ask you to help or support me, or give me money or do anything at all. All I ask is please be decent individuals and give me room to succeed or fail on my own. And let those Rifts fans support me as they please. If you do this, basically do nothing, I will be all in for you. Even if my KS crashes and burns I will put my efforts into getting this gak straightened out!
While I cannot divert KS funds from a Rifts KS to the Robotech KS, or get anyone a refund. There is a lot I can do that will get things moving along again. I can help Palladium get the RIGHT manufacturer for Robotech and give them the advice and knowledge they are missing.
I have answered repeated questions on the Palladium forums about my project, including coming close to breaching my contract and NDA to be as honest and open as I can be. I want to show you that Rogue Heroes is different and that I can try and make a difference here. Which is also why I am posting here and will listen to the torrent of crap that will surely come of it.
After all, who else is helping? Contacting the FTC, or the Michigan Attorney General, or the Michigan BBB, or anyone else – who cares? According to Kickstarter they (PB) are doing their due diligence in working toward the goal of completing the project, as far as the law goes he has done nothing wrong (in my opinion, if I am wrong, invest in a lawyer). After all, it does say in the Kickstarter guidelines that the estimated delivery times are just that estimated, a project creator can take as much time as they require to complete the project as long as they work on it.
If he had so much influence on PB and wanted RRT backers not to go take a dump on his new KS project, maybe he should have used his influence to actually get PB to do something first. But it's probably more BS from these jokers.
Also his tenuous grasp on what a project creator can do, ie. string people along for as long as they want provided they 'work' on the KS, is alarming and disturbing to hear from ANY KS CREATOR. Seriously, this guy is hardly the brightest bulb if he thinks is a good thing to say before launching your own KS while claiming you will be nothing like this failed KS.
Yeah Tom is saying a lot of nothing because "reasons" or "not his place". Then don't say anything it just makes you look like a douche going "I know something you don't know neener neener"
My junky tablet won't let me do either of those with FB.
Needless to say, Roache is being cryptic and hinting in several places that the ks may not happen now, he is also back to blaming ND for ruining things.
Well this been very interesting few day. Now posted that Carmen is not well or sick . I wonder why could it be he went to far when posted on RRTKS forum . Well will see what come of it. I send ticket on KS for it. Later
Accute vagenosis seems to break out at PB anytime they get criticized. Just like Kevin or Wayne he'll retreat for a bit stay silent while he licks his wounds and reinflates his ego and sooner or later he'll be back to hyping things same as before.
His threat to let RRT burn rings hollow, if he could do anything to help the game he would have done it by now. It's a bit like a dad screaming at his car full of kids, hey you little monsters do you want me to stop this car and turn around?? When the car has already been at a full stop for four years. There's absolutely nothing to be lost as all progress was completely halted and lost years ago. The threat of receiving "more nothing" isn't a threat when we all know that wave 2 was never going to happen regardless.
Acting like he somehow holds the key to RRT's salvation while claiming to be completely outside the company is hogwash. He's been part of RRT from the get go as the game credits state, he's also been carrying the PB banner doing interviews on their behalf and promoting the heck out of it, so tell me again how he's completely unconnected to RRT?
I poked around. The "medical issues" are apparently very serious. Serious enough that I am willing to cut him some slack for the time being. I gave my word to say no more than that.
jaymz wrote: I poked around. The "medical issues" are apparently very serious. Serious enough that I am willing to cut him some slack for the time being. I gave my word to say no more than that.
Sorry to hear that, but I hear heartbreak will do that, and learning that you are the problem will do that to people. Having your dream crushed at the same time is likely worse.
Kevin dove in front of a minivan to try to duck his responsibilities, too.
Unless he's suffering serious mental health issues that cause him to toady to Kevin and threaten his "fellow backers" I don't see how it has any bearing on anything.
And pulling a fake (or exaggerating a real) health issue to cancel a project to save face is in no way beyond these people. Particularly since they're getting trashed even on their own forum - a forum, I might add, that would make Saddam Hussein's 99% reelection rates look like an honest sampling of opinions.
jaymz wrote: I am not saying to excuse his behaviour or PBs for that matter but just to....let it be for a few days or so to see how this plays out.
I would not wish ill health on him for sure, I hope he has a quick recovery.
I must note: he will be responsible for his actions no matter what condition he is in unless he has a mental condition.
I have seen people "go off their meds" enough to cut slack in that regard.
I hate to say, but what is common in any business venture is to have a designate.
Ill health could nix his venture as readily as bad will.
It would not be a very restful recovery when you know a bunch of stuff is falling behind.
I hope he is in no rush to launch the KS for a bit till everything is ok.
Talizvar wrote: I hope he is in no rush to launch the KS for a bit till everything is ok.
Only problem is, he's stated a couple times, he has to launch it soon, due to the licensing arrangement. That was the reason given why he couldn't put it off until Wave 2 was finished later this year.
So, either that's still the case, and it's still on a timeframe, or Kevin will readjust it, in which case why wouldn't he readjust it before, if Kevin is confident Wave 2 will be out this year.
The project is in a right pickle at the moment. The whole gherkin, even.
Carmen's health issues, real or not, have no bearing on anything in the RRTKS Comments at all. There is no need to cut him slack. All he needs to do is to avoid posting inflammatory comments. If he has health issues then I guess that problem is solved, if not and he posts more of the same...then expect more of the whirlwind from the community. Pretty straight-forward.
If he laid out money for a license to pb without doing due diligence on the project already underway he was a fething idiot. No sympathy for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If he laid out money for a license to pb without doing due diligence on the project already underway he was a fething idiot. No sympathy for it.
Considering that Kevin was so incredibly magnanimous that he "jumped" at the chance to hand over the license, and Carmen is his "good friend", I can only assume that he'd extend the licensing due to extenuating circumstances.
Surely he would. Unless there's other people beating down the doors to make a Rifts(c)(tm)(bs)(etc) board game.
Sounds like I missed most of the furor, but Carmen's comments were completely inappropriate.
In the end, he CHOSE to associate himself with someone who is a swindler and a cheat. The backlash isn't inappropriate at all, coupled with his comments.
I have no dislike for Carmen, but I don't think he was hurt in anyway.
No one was using Voodoo dolls on him... well not that I know of..
And anyone with a small amount of corporate knowledge is you don't
trash talk customers to their face..
But as for his illness, stress can do crazy things to people... And I am sure he is loaded to the max.
He will soon find out what true friend Kevin is, no matter if his kickstarter is good or bad...
What did he expect going to the Lions Den of the RTT Kickstarter Comments??
That everyone would welcome him with open arms.. I have actually read some
very good feedback to him from RTT backers that should told him the same thing he was saying to them.
At least we know that Kevin can hid the fact his is not fully aware what the condition of
the Robotech community and looks like he used Carmen as a sacrificial lamb..
Latest PB update is Carmen tried to kill himself after the talk on RRT.
While I feel bad that he's apparently suicidal, there's much deeper issues at play than him getting criticism from the RRT community. It also wouldn't stop me from warning people off a RIFTs boardgame KS.
I'm already seeing people express skepticism over whether anything actually happened to Carmen. Kevin's reputation as a liar has gotten to the point where everything he says is suspect.
It would be a way to bow out rather than launch a kickstart that's doomed to failure.
Dear Kevin: Mean words didn't crush Carmen's dreams, his poor taste in friends did. Having his name on an incomplete product that has turned into a combination of a sad joke, farce, and fraud did.
If you want to know who is responsible, look in a mirror.
The fact that Kevin had these words to go, less than 24 hours after Carmen went away from the comments all butthurt certainly isn't suspicious, however. Certainly not after they've spent the last month trying to lower expectations all over the place.
Oh, no, it's definitely not that. Because Kevin is a man of impeccable honesty and character.
I hope that he'll be ok and that he can get the mental support he needs. Stress has a strange way of manifesting and I'd really hate to see somebody harm themselves over a game, as gaming is meant to be a source of joy in our lives. Usually attempts at self harm have a pretty deep set of roots and it's a complex tangle of issues and depression. I hope he's able to get the help he needs and find his way back to a stable and positive frame of mind.
Even under favorable circumstances running a kickstarter is a pretty stressful experience, I hope he is able to put his focus on his recovery and health before he takes any further steps with his game since it would likely only add greater stress to an already overwhelming burden. No matter how much angst people may have towards a game company It's still incredibly sad to see someone finding themself in such a dark and hopeless place that they'd attempt suicide. Carmen hang onto that dream, but first please give yourself the chance to heal the body and spirit.
On top of just lying to us and stealing from us, Mr. Siembieda is now trying to pin this guy's suicide attempt on us? oh right, while painting the guy who attempted suicide as a loveable doofus.
As for said doofus, this guy was shocked and disheartened that kicking a hornet's nest got him stung?
I hope he makes a full recovery, including seeking pschological counseling. This tragedy could turn into an opportunity to rethink his life and get the hell away from Kevin.
I never participated in this Kickstarter but a pal of mine told me about it's current state of affairs, and looking at the recent drama and the related posts that started it along with the delays and previous promises...all I can say is that I would be beyond livid with Palladium.
Speaking as someone who use to be a social worker I do not believe one single event could have caused this. From what I had seen it takes time to get to this point and usually a succession of disheartening or traumatic incidents. Im just saying there would be far more to what led to this than a couple of hours of jousting with some backers.
As I have stated on the various boards my sympathy to carmen and his family and my wholehearted wish for a speedy and full recovery.
It is unfortunate, but his dream would have succeeded even withthe most vitriolic comments from some RTT backers. So I am not sure as to the motive of pouring oil on the fire and expecting to come away slightly singed
However, Kevin has got what he wanted, even if he did not do it directly, The vocal crtics of his failures to deliver are now cast as really bad, viciousprople who have no reagrd for anyone else. His minions on facebook have taken up the call, without even bothering to read the comments that preipitated it. Oh how kevin must love this he is off the hook again from months yet again.
Sadly, I wonder now if he will have the temerity to launch the Rifts BG KS anyway under the Palladium banner, as some sort of lame tribute for his friend. Maybe harsh, but I would not put it past him if he thinks he can make a dollar
megatrons2nd wrote: That was his plan all along. Make his friend Carmen break the contract by not starting on time, then claim all the work as his property, and profit.
Yes I'm a bit cynical when it comes to PB and it's owner.
I don't know. I'm cynical enough to believe Kevin will try to exploit this, much as he has in regards to the RRT Kickstarter (Kevin, there's a good way, and a bad way and a worse way, why do you always pick the latter?), but I think he would have been totally fine with it running as "intended". Mostly because he gets to insulate from the problems if things go bad, and if it doesn't, he's got both the royalties from the initial contract, and the ability to strongarm if any expansions were on the table.
I firmly stand by Keving being a donkeycave, but I ascribe most issues to overconfident incompetence, rather than malicious motive. I just don't think he's that smart to be that sinister.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see several people are commenting over there saying "I haven't read the comments in question, but I don't need to."
Still can't believe people take Kevin's word on anything regarding how hostile people were. I've reread the entire section from Carmen's first entry to his "peace, out" one, and a little beyond, a couple times now.
And while the tone is harsh, it's far from terrible or unexpected, given the situation with the Kickstarter overall, and tone from Carmen's initial post.
That people are so quick to pick up the bat that "haters drove him to this", I just... I just don't get it.
For anyone that wants to actually read what was said, and not just accept Kevin's word on it, here's a link to the initial post. You read up from there, and it's about 60 posts in total from his first, to the one where he signs off. The conversation persisted a bit after, but that's the primary content.
Merijeek wrote: Considering that Kevin was so incredibly magnanimous that he "jumped" at the chance to hand over the license, and Carmen is his "good friend", I can only assume that he'd extend the licensing due to extenuating circumstances.
Surely he would. Unless there's other people beating down the doors to make a Rifts(c)(tm)(bs)(etc) board game.
I'm betting there aren't.
If Kevin was any sort of decent person he would give Carmen his IP licensing fee back. that is where the real stress is, Carmen put his money into a Rifts Board Game and he now realizes it will fail for various reasons one of which is RRT.
megatrons2nd wrote: That was his plan all along. Make his friend Carmen break the contract by not starting on time, then claim all the work as his property, and profit.
Yes I'm a bit cynical when it comes to PB and it's owner.
I don't know. I'm cynical enough to believe Kevin will try to exploit this, much as he has in regards to the RRT Kickstarter (Kevin, there's a good way, and a bad way and a worse way, why do you always pick the latter?), but I think he would have been totally fine with it running as "intended". Mostly because he gets to insulate from the problems if things go bad, and if it doesn't, he's got both the royalties from the initial contract, and the ability to strongarm if any expansions were on the table.
I firmly stand by Keving being a donkeycave, but I ascribe most issues to overconfident incompetence, rather than malicious motive. I just don't think he's that smart to be that sinister.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see several people are commenting over there saying "I haven't read the comments in question, but I don't need to."
Still can't believe people take Kevin's word on anything regarding how hostile people were. I've reread the entire section from Carmen's first entry to his "peace, out" one, and a little beyond, a couple times now.
And while the tone is harsh, it's far from terrible or unexpected, given the situation with the Kickstarter overall, and tone from Carmen's initial post.
That people are so quick to pick up the bat that "haters drove him to this", I just... I just don't get it.
For anyone that wants to actually read what was said, and not just accept Kevin's word on it, here's a link to the initial post. You read up from there, and it's about 60 posts in total from his first, to the one where he signs off. The conversation persisted a bit after, but that's the primary content.
People like to virtue-signal. Reading and understanding is hard. Much easier to believe whatever narrative is in front of you
n815e wrote: This whole thing makes me sad and angry.
Not sure I have seen not just this incident, but nearly every aspect of the post-campaign process summarized so succinctly.
Best wishes to Carmen on getting the help he needs, particularly if said help includes getting him away from Kevin. IIRC, Kevin also blamed Carmen for how "meh" the reception of RTT at GenCon in the same sort of "what a doofus" manner.
I can't think of anything nice to say about Kevin with his attempts and finger-wagging and blame-shifting away from the culprit that he sees in every mirror, so I'll just stop there I suppose.
n815e wrote: This whole thing makes me sad and angry.
Agreed, same feelings here.
Sad:
Obviously the project is very important to Carmen, more so than I had suspected.
I would say there is a bit more at work here than what Kevin's perspective conveys which leads to...
Angry:
Kevin is speaking on behalf of Carmen?
I am feeling he is taking advantage of a VERY tragic circumstance.
Most would say: "Carmen after sending me an apologetic email tried to take his own life shortly after. He did not succeed, our hopes and prayers go with him."
Done.
I am quite upset with that self-serving wall of text masquerading as concern (there is some genuine in there somewhere I hope but he is too busy scolding the backers).
I only have to say that I agree that "everyone is not a bad guy" but when bad people push a person to the point of mental illness I get upset.
I have dealt with narcissists and Kevin is taking no blame in his role in this and he was instrumental in Carmen's predicament.
He is trying to hijack attention away from his victim as far as I am concerned, that is... unforgivable. Carmen does have my sympathy, since now it is quite obvious he was a victim not a collaborator of Palladium Books.
ok this message is for those of you who are blaming the backers:
1: go read what was said, sorry while some harsh things were said it was mostly directed at PB and if someone was willing to commit suicide over such comments then they had more serious issues going on (like being misled by a certain game company, or such)
2: also you guys do realize that Kevin's post here essentially destroyed Carmen right? he will now never be able to work in this field or many others since he will be looked at as the guy willing to kill himself over a little pressure, Kevin has essentially destroyed Carmen's life, so cast the blame where it belongs on Kevin, not the backers.
3: I was among the posters who posted to Carmen and here are my posts to him.:
Hello Carmen, for starters let me state your project is doomed to failure, why? nothing to do with PB or RRT but neither of those will be helping you either, but no your project is doomed to failure because of issues you have not taken into consideration which will raises costs considerably for you, furthermore you will be coupled with a low funding amount, compared to actual amount you will need for production and shipping to you. and the fact you are in Canada will hurt you even more. Now I could tell you the factors you are forgetting and I know you are forgetting, but seeing as how you have so much experience in the board gaming world I should not need to tell you, so I won't. Now as to the PB RIFTs IP, wow you actually believe the hype about a dead game with a small following and even smaller support, you would have been better designing your own IP and game, it would have been a lot less of a hassle and less worrisome for you me thinks? As to RRT you know as well as I do PB's out of money, they have debt collectors coming at them out of the woodworks there is nothing to save RRT. and finally Murphy's law is against you, PB got lucky in that they do not have a lawyer among their backers to bring suit against them, now if your project fails to deliver do you think you will be so lucky? would wish you luck but that would be a farce since your project is doomed to failure. especially since in all things you mentioned you failed to mention the one major thing that PB never had either.
oh and Carmen Want to thank you for a big laugh, since the only way you can help with RRT is to give Kevin the money to finish it and that it can only be used on RRT wave 2 and to finish the backers stuff in a timely manner, that is the only way you can help get RRT on track, to even think you can have any sway with Kevin is laughable at best.
oh one last thing Carmen definitely invest in a PR rep because while you think you are meaning well your words do not seem so, you seem disingenuous or even smarmy. in other words you are not helping yourself but harming yourself and any chance of your game funding, and to be honest your best bet is if the game does not fund, since you are ill prepared if it does so. by the way your attempt to douse the flames of ill will among RRT backers has failed and has managed to only fan the flames even more.
now if those sound rude and harsh then got news for you cupcake, you better find a safe space to hide in.
Carmen backed the wrong pony when he decided to do a RIFT's Board Game as his flagship game for his fledgling company. since anything and everything PB touches is destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
Asterios wrote: now if those sound rude and harsh then got news for you cupcake, you better find a safe space to hide in.
Rick, could you kindly take five minutes and stop being such an donkey-cave?
Because this isn't the fething time or place.
took more then 5 minutes and shocked by the accusations towards backers over what is mildly offensive at worst, most of the ire was directed at Kevin and PB and RIFTs not Carmen, and yet people are saying people were mean to Carmen, yet ignore the fact that Kevin did far more damage to Carmen then any backer could. true some of the posts by Backers was a bit over the top they were no where near the worse I've seen on those forums or even on these forums. so by Kevin saying it was those posts that drove Carmen to commit suicide, Kevin pretty much destroyed Carmen's chances in the gaming industry which can be very tough and cruel.
and yes this is the time and place for it.
Edit: personally I hope Carmen and his family sue Kevin and his company for that post of Kevin's.
Sympathy for Carmen I find increasing a great deal for me.
I really did not need to hear about his wife finding him... that is heartbreaking.
I feel he was badly used.
I am sure there is more happening than what was posted in the KS "update".
The update wall of text is rather... numbing... as I think of the audacity of what is said there.
Carmen was suffering from mental illness: what was said is pretty much null and void for Carmen only. The hand waving and shaming is of incredibly bad taste.
I hope at some point Carmen can find stability and possibly voice his own words of his choosing.
I am... upset that Palladium has elected to be his representative... inappropriately.
I do feel some shame where I had said elsewhere that Carman seemed crazy like a bull in a china shop with his initial postings.
How was one to know how right that was?
I had wrote a long post paralleling things said on the RTT Kickstarter comment section.
Here is what i believe..
Running a business is very hard.. And if you can not handle negative feed back from
customers then you might consider doing something else. There was a ton more other issues
that caused Carmen's choice.
I don't think Kevin has read or even cares about the comment section of his own kickstarter.
If project was actually properly planned, this would have no bearing on the project delivery date..
but I foresee another delay because of it.
At the end of the day.. this is business that was paid to produce a product.. not something personal.
Genoside07 wrote: I had wrote a long post paralleling things said on the RTT Kickstarter comment section.
Here is what i believe..
Running a business is very hard.. And if you can not handle negative feed back from
customers then you might consider doing something else. There was a ton more other issues
that caused Carmen's choice.
I don't think Kevin has read or even cares about the comment section of his own kickstarter.
If project was actually properly planned, this would have no bearing on the project delivery date..
but I foresee another delay because of it.
At the end of the day.. this is business that was paid to produce a product.. not something personal.
of Course Kevin is just setting up that he cannot work on RRT or much else because of his sorrow for his friend, albeit he will struggle thru to get his Rifts stuff done, if for nothing else then to give his friend hope in that IP.
"In honor of my dear friend, who can no longer do this project, *I PERSONALLY* will take up the project. The demand has been too high for a Rifts(c)(tm)(etc) board game, and I just can't let that go to waste. We owe it to Carmen!"
Basically, the PB version of HG's "Do it for Caaaaaaaaaaaarl!"
WOW!! What day first again I hope Carmen and his family recover from this. I wonder do anyone here have a pic of Carmen. I want to know if he was the one that help me with my stuff when I pick it up at warehouse. I read that update that Kev posted it burns me up . So everyone where do we go from here I know wave 2 is never coming . later
Merijeek wrote: It's also not that unlikely for Simbieda to say:
"In honor of my dear friend, who can no longer do this project, *I PERSONALLY* will take up the project. The demand has been too high for a Rifts(c)(tm)(etc) board game, and I just can't let that go to waste. We owe it to Carmen!"
Basically, the PB version of HG's "Do it for Caaaaaaaaaaaarl!"
I was thinking more the line that Kevin should offer to refund the licensing money if Carmen wished, until he was in a better position to act on it. Finances could very likely be a stressor.
Since KS was so public in voicing his concern.
Could someone do me the favor of posing that idea on the KS comments?
Talizvar wrote: I was thinking more the line that Kevin should offer to refund the licensing money if Carmen wished, until he was in a better position to act on it. Finances could very likely be a stressor.
Since KS was so public in voicing his concern.
Could someone do me the favor of posing that idea on the KS comments?
There's a lot in that Robotech RPG Tactics update that really, really shouldn't be in there for public consumption AND even then, there's more detail in there about intensely PRIVATE things then there's been detail about the actual Kickstarter Campaign he's posting in - Robotech RPG Tactics, especially Wave 2.
I just lost it over RRTKS site. I saw as now 67 like about what happen to Carmen is just piss me off. Kevin was wrong to put that out there for all to see its just wrong.
Alpharius wrote: There's a lot in that Robotech RPG Tactics update that really, really shouldn't be in there for public consumption AND even then, there's more detail in there about intensely PRIVATE things then there's been detail about the actual Kickstarter Campaign he's posting in - Robotech RPG Tactics, especially Wave 2.
Sheesh!
Thank you.
Emphasis on private. Others who knew did the right thing and kept it to themselves, but oh no, not Kevin.
At least it shows publicly exactly what he thinks of the backers. Even the ones who support him.
This whole thing, from Carmen's posts to Kevin's reaction is just unprofessional in the extreme. This whole thing is just terrible, and shows that everyone involved on the professional side of this kickstarter is out of their element and incapable of handling the business they are hypothetically involved in.
I don't know what ridiculous sum Carmen had to pay to Kevin to get the IP rights here, but I'm pretty confident that the real source of stress here lies in that number.
I'm sympathetic to Carmen and really his family, but this is so ridiculously unprofessional, none of these people should ever be trusted again in business.
Well it appears word of Carmen's attempted suicide is spreading thru the internet, Kevin has destroyed Carmen and any future he may have had in gaming and other things, since now he will be known as the guy who attempted suicide under a little pressure from a few comments(according to Kevin's post) and will be considered a liability and a risk, hope he and his family sue the pants off of Kevin and his company.
No one here is a jaded internet troll.. we shouldn't even know about the suicide.
This will be Kevins legacy.. Robotech Tactics debacle and spreading the news
of Carmen's personal issues..that the public should have never known.
Kickstarter is a program for business to get backing for projects. Kevin putting something
like that on there instead of information on the project just shows how much work
he has or ever will put into it.
To be honest I would love a meet and greet at Gen Con one year if I could ever make it.
This entire project and everything it touches continues to turn to crap.
*If* the Carmen situation is true and was accurately described, my condolences. However if that is really the case Carmen has some much more serious issues in his life which need work first.
Secondly, Kevin continues to impress with his level of stupidity. Sharing a lot of that information which could have been handled better, not to mention he could have avoided the heaps of insults included in that status update (toward Carmen).
If I wasn't a jaded, pragmatic donkey-cave I'd assume this would have no further impact, but knowing Kevin I suspect it will, either in the form of extended timelines, diverted "funds", further excuses over production/planning, or time off for "mental recuperation" (on Kevin's part!) etc. Overall, a huge gak show.
Asterios wrote: Well it appears word of Carmen's attempted suicide is spreading thru the internet, Kevin has destroyed Carmen and any future he may have had in gaming and other things, since now he will be known as the guy who attempted suicide under a little pressure from a few comments(according to Kevin's post) and will be considered a liability and a risk, hope he and his family sue the pants off of Kevin and his company.
My first response was to wonder where Kevin found the ability to write upwards of 1000 words for an update in a few hours following Carmen's attempt at suicide.
Seriously, folks, who has the mental wherewithal to compose a long form letter when one of their purported friends has just attempted suicide?
n815e wrote: Leave Carmen alone.
His career isn't ruined. He can be stronger than ever after this.
Kevin hit the lowest notes in this entire saga with that update.
Rick is right behind him.
actually yes it could effect his career since employers especially those in a highly stressful job which has timelines and such are prone to avoid hiring those who are prone to suicide or severe depression and such, since neither they nor their insurance wants to be liable for a relapse or incident. and while they won't say that is why they are not hiring him, they will just tell him he is not be considered for the position and such, and anyone in the gaming industry will know soon enough about this instance. furthermore his mental health will also effect any loans he wishes to make and so on.
n815e wrote: No, he didn't. But mental health issues don't make a person weak or incapable of succeeding.
Agreed.
Pardon a touch of tone policing, but it's a bit early to say that his career is definitively over in the past tense. The man is still recovering, and deserves naught but support during a difficult time.
How about we lay off the ghoulish declarations of Kevin ending Carmen's career until it's actually over (whenever that might be, under whatever circumstances that might be).
Was this update helpful? Probably not. Might it harm his prospects, at least in the short term? Maybe.
It's not difficulty to coach ones language and sentiment with even a thin veneer of optimism and an open mind.
Or at least fake it convincingly while we wait to hear the prognosis. I certainly haven't seen further info detailing precisely what happened (nor is it any of my damned business, of course), but proclaiming the immense harm done to Carmen's career before we even see evidence of that is just another side to the coin of using his personal tragedy to put forth a narrative that fits our preconceived notions.
I think we can all agree Kevin was a massive donkey cave in that update.
No, his actions and words have consequences just like everyone else.
I'm pretty sure he's already faced those consequences. Enough is enough.
Carmens post was full of red flags, i wish I had done more to calm him. One of those situations where you wish you could pick up a phone and just go, operator get me the number for Carmen it's an emergency.
This $1 pledge business is just stupid, it achieves nothing.
This was a man so fired up he barely made sense.
The $1 pledge business is a lighthouse to steer people away from the rocks, and regardless of what is going on in Carmen's personal life (where all of this should have stayed honestly) it is important to future investors to know what they are getting into.
This wasn't the end of this portion of the saga I was expecting, though looking back, Carmen's abrupt exit from the conversation is more ominous.
I think more than enough damage has been done by all parties. As much as I hate what's become of this mess, Carmen didn't need to become a victim as well. I'm not trying to defend Carmen's words - I think he was clearly in the wrong - but it's just a sad state what resulted from his actions.
Blaming him, the backers or Kevin for what happened helps no one.
*sigh* On a side note, I find Kevin's "update" infuriating and self-serving. Too much time spent on back-pedalling and promoting vaporware; too long before he gets to the real point that should have been made - Carmen's well-being.
Merijeek wrote:Not even a little bit true. What it would accomplish would be to warn potential backers about who and what they were dealing with.
Some people even offered helpful advice - decouple from the millstone of Kevin Simbieda.
That's impossible when you're doing a KS based on his IP isn't it? Especially when you're a brand new company with a known history of being a fan-friend. At least savage worlds had released some stuff before their PB IP KS so they had already established their own brand-space in peoples minds. Carmen has no such luxury.
Swabby wrote:The $1 pledge business is a lighthouse to steer people away from the rocks, and regardless of what is going on in Carmen's personal life (where all of this should have stayed honestly) it is important to future investors to know what they are getting into.
I have to agree with Swabby on this. I didn't take part when Carmen started posting on the KS discussion board, mostly because I haven't posted there for ages since it seems futile. However, I was planning to warn people away from any potential PB-related KS, especially from a 'new' company which closely affiliated with PB and Kevin. That hasn't really changed. While it's sad that Carmen tried to commit suicide, it ultimately hasn't changed my opinion that any new KS related to PB has a very high chance of failing.
I haven't been following RRT really, either here or on the comments. Because well, Kevin and Palladium. SO I got the update. Something about a guy called Carmen, who posted something something something, presumably in the RRTKS comments? and then attempted suicide? The update pretty much being 50% Kevin telling us what a good guy Carmen is and 50% Kevin laying into Carmen/throwing him under the bus.
I've read the last couple of pages of this thread, but I'm still scratching my head...
All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.
Stormonu wrote: This wasn't the end of this portion of the saga I was expecting, though looking back, Carmen's abrupt exit from the conversation is more ominous.
I think more than enough damage has been done by all parties. As much as I hate what's become of this mess, Carmen didn't need to become a victim as well. I'm not trying to defend Carmen's words - I think he was clearly in the wrong - but it's just a sad state what resulted from his actions.
Blaming him, the backers or Kevin for what happened helps no one.
*sigh* On a side note, I find Kevin's "update" infuriating and self-serving. Too much time spent on back-pedalling and promoting vaporware; too long before he gets to the real point that should have been made - Carmen's well-being.
the problem is most of the vitriol was not aimed at Carmen in particular, but at PB and their IP, I even told him he would be better off doing his own game and IP item, but from what i can gather he had serious issues before hand and when he saw the hate for PB he realized (my summization) that he may have backed the wrong pony.
Joyboozer wrote: All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.
Beasts of War stopped covering RRT a long time ago after the unboxing incident. (which also involved Carmen)
Joyboozer wrote: All it did was to play straight into Kevin's hands, his complaints of vindictive backers is proved correct. The Beasts of War article practically writes itself.
Beasts of War stopped covering RRT a long time ago after the unboxing incident. (which also involved Carmen)
They love anything the shows customers in a bad light, it's how they keep in good with the game companies. I guarantee its in the green room.
And to make it worse, it's justified.
At least this happened *before* the KS. I imagine that during the KS, comments would be *MUCH* worse, or at least hard to handle -- Nobody's going to censor posts on KS like Palladium supporters may be used to be seeing on the Palladium forums. I wonder if he actually *believes* that the censored version on the Palladium forums would be his reception on KS. Running and fulfilling a KS is *extremely* stressful, and if he considers or tries to commit suicide after two hours of KS backlash on RRT, I think there's a much greater chance he'd carry it out during (or after) a RIFTS boardgame KS.
Remember this quote: "I read nothing but posts here how everyone wants to kill my KS (my personal dream) and if that happens I hope the RRT burns." That certainly did not endear him to RRTKS backers. I'm not surprised that Carmen needs help. I can't see anyone "normal" being able to work or put up with Kevin on a regular basis. If PEG can release an RPG based on the Rifts IP, another professional company can work with Carmen and Palladium to create a RIFTS boardgame.
n815e wrote: Leave Carmen alone.
His career isn't ruined. He can be stronger than ever after this.
Kevin hit the lowest notes in this entire saga with that update.
Rick is right behind him.
actually yes it could effect his career since employers especially those in a highly stressful job which has timelines and such are prone to avoid hiring those who are prone to suicide or severe depression and such, since neither they nor their insurance wants to be liable for a relapse or incident. and while they won't say that is why they are not hiring him, they will just tell him he is not be considered for the position and such, and anyone in the gaming industry will know soon enough about this instance. furthermore his mental health will also effect any loans he wishes to make and so on.
Briefly - Carmen Bellaire has freelanced for Palladium over the years, including on RRT. He started his own company and purchased a license from PB to do a Rifts board game called Rogue Heroes. He planned to seek funding via KS and RRT backers made it known that they would warn off potential Rogue Heroes backers. Mr. Bellaire posted in the RRTKS comments section that if RRT backers would refrain from interfering with Rogue Heroes then he would use his alleged knowledge and connections to "fix" the RRT mess. If RRT backers did warn people off Rogue Stars, however, he promised to let RRT "burn." RRT backers reacted negatively and Mr. Bellaire stopped posting. Then rumors started to spread of Mr. Bellaire having some kind of medical problems. Ultimately, Mr. Siembieda posted an update to the RRTKS disclaiming that Mr. Bellaire had never made any threats regarding RRT, that all he really meant was that if Rogue Heroes was successful then he could devote his full time to game development, including informally helping with RRT, and that RRT backers' reactions to his bumbling words were so hurtful, it had caused him to attempt suicide,
While this entire situation seems to have spun way out of control, and I do wish Carmen success in healing and hope that he can recover from this dreadful event.
However, my question is why was/is there such a bloody obsession with Kickstarter being the end all be all for the success of the RIFTS Board Game? I get that you can generate a lot of cash in the Kickstarter format, but the "KS is not a store" goes both ways. And what I mean by that statement is that I won't back a game based on vague promises, appeals to nostalgia, or a sappy sob story (referring to Carmen's 'lifelong dream' story). I NEED a product to look at, examine and judge, and none of these were possible with the RIFTS game.
I have backed a lot of games on KS, and I will back due to mechanics/rules, what I perceive as production value, and potential playability within my group. I've been burned before (Horror on the Orient express....and RRT), and I've found absolute gems (Dragonstone Mine, Valeria), and not pledged despite nostalgia (Ghostbusters, and TMNT). In each of these games, there has been a print and play version/rules easily accessible, an ACTUAL product (usually minis), and video reviews from Tom Vasel, et al, or a video play test of the game.
For RIFTS board game, I've found none of these, other than some 3-D renders on the FB page and a vague promise of greatness, and comparisons to Zombiecide, and Descent. (I wish there was a shrugging Ork). So it seems he would generate the capital and the game would take shape during the campaign? or afterwards with input from the backers. I'm sorry, but that's no way to run a campaign.
My RRT models act as "paint time" with my 2 year old (easing here into the hobby early ) and little else. I've given up on any return of investment from this game (and no, I did not find it a fun or intuitively mechanical game, generally plagued with the clunkiness of the RIFTS/Palladium system from the 90's when I used to play)
WtF. Seriously, I hope Carmen gets the help he needs, but people really need to understand that their anger is misplaced at Carmen. Now, while Carmen should have just left it alone and not even stepped into the viper pit...I'm honestly shocked how that he didn't know what to expect. I suppose if you work on something and move on..you aren't privy to the crap storm that followed...but seriously..why even bother rocking the boat? Ignore the people, forge on, and do the best you can in your own KS. Who cares what several people think about your connection to PB? Prove them wrong by releasing a good game. Results will shut down any nay-sayers or at least will make them look dumb. He should of focused on that instead of poking the bear. Now, that being said...the level of rage lobbed in his direction was really childish and petty. We get it. People are pissed about wave 2 not getting out. There is mountains of rage already about it across several forums. I think it's time to move on. Everything has been said and talked to death regarding this...so why waste the energy? Unless people decide to pursue legal avenues that are actually going to stick...it's all a waste of time. PB screwed over 5000+ people. The fact that their business can't grow is evidence enough that their failing at the RRT kickstarter has damaged their company to near beyond repair. Nothing will save them at this point. Isn't that revenge enough for the people that want their pound of flesh from Kevin? You aren't getting your money back. Not unless a judge orders it. So any further rage is wasted time in an echo chamber. Hopefully Carmen realizes that forging his own path without PB or Kevin is probably a better way to go. I'll be honest and say I'll be disappointed if this board game doesn't get made...because I think it had potential. The model renderings looked awesome. Oh well. Get well soon Carmen. I don't agree with what you did...but mental illness is a serious problem in this country and hopefully you get treatment.
TBH I am grateful to the people who have kept the pressure on Palladium and Kevin Siembieda while backers like myself have largely moved on. I am grateful to them for fighting my battle for me, while I ignored it.
Someone mentioned earlier ITT that Palladium was lucky that none of the RRT backers are lawyers. Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.
Until that point, however, someone needs to make sure this doesn't get swept under the rug. Someone needs to keep a record of all the deception. Someone needs to point out that year after year of saying "we will deliver by the end of this year" is not good enough - in fact, that it is outrageous and that a company taking this position cannot be trusted to do anything else until it sorts out this standing issue.
There are some RRT backers who have done that. I salute them. Blaming Carmen Bellaire's mental problems and suicide attempt on those backers is the most morally despicable public act of Kevin Siembieda, a man who already has a reputation as a bully and a liar.
To Carmen Bellaire - please take this opportunity to cut Kevin Siembieda out of your life.
TBH I am grateful to the people who have kept the pressure on Palladium and Kevin Siembieda while backers like myself have largely moved on. I am grateful to them for fighting my battle for me, while I ignored it.
And that's fine. But you are also handling it like an adult. How many times can people rage about PB when everything that's been said...has been said a million times.
Someone mentioned earlier ITT that Palladium was lucky that none of the RRT backers are lawyers. Well, I am actually a lawyer. I have no interest in filing a lawsuit against Palladium at this point. BUT I do have an interest - obviously so - in getting the backer rewards Palladium promised to deliver in consideration of my pledge. Once you strip the marketing hokum off, what we have here is a purchase order: I pay you X and you hand over Y. I have paid X - where is Y? Whether Palladium has breached that contract is a legal question that they may be forced to defend at some point.
Agreed. However, if any backer thinks they are getting a full refund at this point is deluding themselves. I don't think it will ever get to that point. I really don't. Not unless the laws regarding a KS changes in the eyes of the FTC. Until such a day...this will continue. TBH, I really see PB closing it's doors before that happens. Either way, nobody will get their full amount of money back. I just don't see it as a reality at this point.
Until that point, however, someone needs to make sure this doesn't get swept under the rug. Someone needs to keep a record of all the deception. Someone needs to point out that year after year of saying "we will deliver by the end of this year" is not good enough - in fact, that it is outrageous and that a company taking this position cannot be trusted to do anything else until it sorts out this standing issue.
I have no problems with keeping this thing from being swept under the rug...but I think that can be done without rehashing the same old hateraide for PB. Like I said, I think collectively, we've all said as much as we can about how we loathe these people. Going forward, it should be nothing else but presenting facts and leave the rage out of it.
There are some RRT backers who have done that. I salute them. Blaming Carmen Bellaire's mental problems and suicide attempt on those backers is the most morally despicable public act of Kevin Siembieda, a man who already has a reputation as a bully and a liar.
Agreed. However, I don't think it helped either. There are more productive ways to handle your rage.
To Carmen Bellaire - please take this opportunity to cut Kevin Siembieda out of your life.
As a lawyer, even if you are not interested in starting a case, would you be interested in helping the people who do want to move forward with legal action? I fear most of us are ignorant of how the legal system really works and are kind of stumbling in the dark hopeless during all these talks we have had over the years about potential action.
At this point I do not believe Kevin will lift a finger to complete this project, especially now that the backers have been demonized over this situation.
In short, I think the most effective way of dealing with this right now is to cut PB off from using crowdfunding platforms to fund further projects involving PB by warning potential backers of how PB has handled RRT.
That would include - IMO at least - PB-licensed projects like Rogue Heroes in addition to PB's own products.
CaptKaruthors wrote: However, if any backer thinks they are getting a full refund at this point is deluding themselves.
I agree - inasmuch as fees and costs of pursuing litigation would eat into the $1.4M at issue, plus some rewards have been delivered.
CaptKaruthors wrote: I have no problems with keeping this thing from being swept under the rug...but I think that can be done without rehashing the same old hateraide for PB.
Yes, there are some things we would need to establish -
(1) Kevin Siembieda obviously does love RoboTech and I think he went into this sincerely wanting to put out a stellar product line.
(2) A significant portion of the KS has been fulfilled and the quality of that portion, while debatable in detail, is not substantially less than promised.
Personally, I think the game is fun. I think the models are fiddly but once you get them together they definitely look like they should. I am pretty pleased with what I have gotten.
The problem is, there is a lot more to go and Kevin Siembieda/PB have not made any meaningful progress on getting there.
Jacall wrote: However, my question is why was/is there such a bloody obsession with Kickstarter being the end all be all for the success of the RIFTS Board Game? I get that you can generate a lot of cash in the Kickstarter format, but the "KS is not a store" goes both ways.
The long and short of it is that in the over saturated market that is boardgames (in general), trying to score a success without having a major publishing house's support and without a track record in design is incredibly hard. This isn't specific to Rifts, it's across the board.
Practically, it's not about print runs or quality of parts, because those are relatively easy problems to solve; printing is relatively cheap nowadays and you can usually find innovative alternatives for parts if you work at it hard enough. It's all about breaking into that distribution channel and getting the brand recognition to get enough buys to become a hit. Brand recognition, traditional shipping and distribution networks remains a largely closed environment that is a huge competitive advantage for traditional publishing houses, and smaller startups face a very uphill challenge to surmount that.
KS is the shortcut in two ways. First, it generate interest and recognition; two, it generate funding. With funding, a company can hope to tackle shipping and distribution in low volumes to reach out to more people. So KS -- crowdfunding in general -- is in many sense a criticality to many such companies.
Jacall wrote: I have backed a lot of games on KS, and I will back due to mechanics/rules, what I perceive as production value, and potential playability within my group. I've been burned before (Horror on the Orient express....and RRT), and I've found absolute gems (Dragonstone Mine, Valeria), and not pledged despite nostalgia (Ghostbusters, and TMNT).
You won't but nostalgia is a big draw for a lot of people. So yes, that does work; veteran KS backers tend to be wary of empty promises projects, but we all get suckered in every once in a while. Obviously, RRT is an example.
