So to give them undeserved benefit of the doubt, mid 2017 is the canary in the coal mine.
And 6 fething months passes pretty quickly.
Yup, and they should know by January supposedly (but whether or not they share any information is another story). We all know they don't give a rat's ass about getting anything (whether information or product, both promised) to backers in a timely fashion but rather that they care about making it for Gencon or not. If they can't make gencon then their next goal would be Black Friday/2017 holiday shopping season. After that, they're back to not caring. As you said, it took them last time months between starting production and starting shipping so if they don't start production in January then the motivation/likelihood of 2017 at all decreases significantly if they can't sell at gencon for 100% msrp.
I'd kind of overlooked them even hoping for Buzz(tm) and Hype(c) for Gencon. Which is funny, because this year is the 50th anniversary, and I'm guessing a lot of companies are going to pull out the stops for it. Actually having wave two for purchase there would probably be pretty big for them, 'dying/dead game' and all. Seems even I've slid far enough into cynicism that when they say '2017 is a must' I hear 'by December 31st 2017 is a must' reflexively.
If we accept ~4 months as the target time, at least to get the plastic done, and CNY eats up a good chunk of Feb/March (I know it's actually only a couple of weeks, but then there's the maintenance period some factories allegedly do right afterwards, basically it's not THAT long a period of time but depending on who you talk to, between those and the backlog that can form it's supposedly a lost quarter or so, thus the compromise), even an April'ish slot could be hard pressed to have material at the warehouse in time for the convention.
So if mid June'ish is the canary for Black Friday, I guess late Q1/very early Q2 would be our canary for making Gencon (assuming all else is equal, but it probably isn't, but this is mostly a thought exercise anyway).
Heh, if PB was actually talking to people, that'd be a fair question; will Wave 2 material be at Gencon? They'd probably say "maybe" and we'd all laugh. Good times.
And lest I be accused of overlooking something, there's always the middle ground of finishing SOME wave 2, and having it for sale at the convention before shipping to backers. They've long abandoned the 'BACKERS FIRST!' stance with the previous Gencon vote. They make money and get to Slap In The Face the dastardly backers who have been so noisy all these years.
And lest I be accused of overlooking something, there's always the middle ground of finishing SOME wave 2, and having it for sale at the convention before shipping to backers. They've long abandoned the 'BACKERS FIRST!' stance with the previous Gencon vote. They make money and get to Slap In The Face the dastardly backers who have been so noisy all these years.
It's possible but with how much of a fuss they made container shipping last time out to be that they'd not want to ship more than once to the US but rather go through the process only once. My (probably unclear) point was initially that I think Gencon is the only date they care about next. If come January they find out that they won't make gencon, I don't think they'll try their darndest to get it done anyways for the weeks after Gencon but rather put it off until the next date months later they care about which would be Xmas Season 2017.
Meri, what's wrong with extrapolating the point at which the lie becomes transparent again?
Nobody here really thinks they're going to leap into action and actually make progress after 2 years of sitting on their hands.
They come up with a new 'deadline', and using their previous efforts when they were actually doing work, we can assess when the lines in the sand are (at least roughly) from there.
Merijeek wrote: OFFS, kids, unless Gen Con is a special period where manufacturers are required to work for free it doesn't fething matter.
We're simply talking about possibilities and, in my case, I'm not even talking about manufacturers but rather whether Palladium *COULD* even get motivated enough to get off their lazy asses and even try. The only way I see Palladium actually trying to make any progress would be to make those two dates; outside of those distinct shopping/selling opportunities, I see them putting the project indefinitely on the backburner. No reason to get your panties in a twist.
I mean, do we really need to go back to the days of full caveats for every post?
"The above is purely a hypothetical flight of fantasy in which PB decide to actually do something, unlikely as it is, yes we know that, obviously they probably won't, but let's use those vast imaginations that we occasionally indulge when talking about little plastic mans, and instead dream of what it might look like to have PB decide that this Gencon and/or Black Friday was actually worth doing work towards?"
That gak is tiresome.
I'm aware of the irony here, but do we really need "do you really think" style posts? I think in the last 3.5 years, our stances are all pretty well known.
And that kind of 'purity testing' of opinion is kind of obnoxious. I'm seeing it more and more online, Kickstarter included.
Let's not do that to one another here. How about being a little more charitable with ones interpretations.
Except Warboss. He can take whatever he likes however he likes because that was seriously funny.
Merijeek wrote:Sorry, I just thoguht people were getting a bit too far down the "Well, they could do this" rabbit hole.
It's all we have left.
Alpharius wrote:
Forar wrote: I mean, do we really need to go back to the days of full caveats for every post?
No, we absolutely do not!
Agreed. Last I checked there was no prize for being the most rootin'est, tootin'est, most shamefully negative poster in the west. If there is a prize, I hope it's exclusively wave 2 stock. And if you're not a contender for runner up, that doesn't automatically make you a palladium spy either.
Forar wrote:That gak is tiresome.
I'm aware of the irony here, but do we really need "do you really think" style posts? I think in the last 3.5 years, our stances are all pretty well known.
And that kind of 'purity testing' of opinion is kind of obnoxious. I'm seeing it more and more online, Kickstarter included.
Agreed, and I like the term "purity testing" as well. Also, that first line basically sums up this entire project for 2015/2016 and in all likelihood 2017.
Except Warboss. He can take whatever he likes however he likes because that was seriously funny.
"Waitwhat? I didn't say any of that..." :-P
Thanks (although I had to clarfiy what exactly, lol).
"Hey everyone, because so many people are getting walloped by this snow storm – we got 10 inches at the Palladium offices last night – we are extending the current sale another two days, so nobody misses out."
Translation: We didn't make as much as we thought we were going to, so we're extending this BS sale.
Honestly, is there a valid reason why they can't just produce resin minis instead of polystyrene plastic? I mean, feth, at this point just sign a deal with prodos to have them make friggin unicast minis for all of us. I dont think too many of us care about what material the minis are in, so long as they are quality, and so long as we get them.
chaos0xomega wrote: Honestly, is there a valid reason why they can't just produce resin minis instead of polystyrene plastic? I mean, feth, at this point just sign a deal with prodos to have them make friggin unicast minis for all of us. I dont think too many of us care about what material the minis are in, so long as they are quality, and so long as we get them.
Because they don't either have the money nor do they want to kick in some of their own to fulfill their contractual obligations? That's a very valid reason from their POV... not so much from our's.
Swabby wrote: I'm not even convinced it is as much a money issue as a motivation/knowledge/coordination issue.
They are basically a bicycle company trying to build a car right now.
bad correlation look at Peugot, Opel, Pierce-Arrow, Puch and many more were bike makers before they became car makers, in fact many of the old car makers made bikes before they made cars.
Swabby wrote: I'm not even convinced it is as much a money issue as a motivation/knowledge/coordination issue.
They are basically a bicycle company trying to build a car right now.
bad correlation look at Peugot, Opel, Pierce-Arrow, Puch and many more were bike makers before they became car makers, in fact many of the old car makers made bikes before they made cars.
Agreed.
They are basically Bakers trying to build a Large Hadron Collider!
It certainly appears that they are low on funds or out of money.
They have a history of mismanaging money.
It is also apparent that they are the least productive people in the business, with a tendency towards idleness that is simply amazing.
Kevin seems to have extensive periods of inactivity, followed by short bursts of productivity (the frequency of which is decreasing over time). Despite being a micromanager, he seems to completely rely on the word (rather than proof) of work and expertise of his employees, which means that they get away with being unproductive, too. "Facebook takes a lot of time to create an account for."
Despite being a publishing company, they have no clue how to properly communicate.
It all comes together in a wonderful stew of lies, inactivity, debt, unlit offices, declining sales and angry customers.
Swabby wrote: "Hey everyone, because so many people are getting walloped by this snow storm – we got 10 inches at the Palladium offices last night – we are extending the current sale another two days, so nobody misses out."
Translation: We didn't make as much as we thought we were going to, so we're extending this BS sale.
Pretty much since it's an online sale and cannot be affected by local, to palladium, inclement weather that is also to be expected weather on December....idjits *sigh*
Swabby wrote: "Hey everyone, because so many people are getting walloped by this snow storm – we got 10 inches at the Palladium offices last night – we are extending the current sale another two days, so nobody misses out."
Translation: We didn't make as much as we thought we were going to, so we're extending this BS sale.
Pretty much since it's an online sale and cannot be affected by local, to palladium, inclement weather that is also to be expected weather on December....idjits *sigh*
in other words they didn't make enough to pay their utility bills, guess no heater this month for them
Swabby wrote: "Hey everyone, because so many people are getting walloped by this snow storm – we got 10 inches at the Palladium offices last night – we are extending the current sale another two days, so nobody misses out."
Translation: We didn't make as much as we thought we were going to, so we're extending this BS sale.
Pretty much since it's an online sale and cannot be affected by local, to palladium, inclement weather that is also to be expected weather on December....idjits *sigh*
Bad weather can interfere with the internet! Sometimes the handset gets frozen to the cradle!
Considering that their preferred communication methods are either telephone or snail mail, he may be expecting all those orders sent by USPS to be delayed, due to weather.
I bet if you send them a SASE, they'll send you a printed catalog.
There seems to be some...truth behind the rumor that they have WAY too much of the funds tied up in Wave 1 stock...
They clearly have an over stock that seems like we paid for.. As a backer I don't remember that being part of the project.
"Backers will pay for stock of material until wave 2 is complete"
But how many times have they done something against the backers..
If Palladium was a public traded company with investors..
Their stocks would be worth nothing....
But we have to live with...
Palladium kicking Ninja Division to the curb even though they knew most of the process [promised 98% was complete]
Change release dates on product to infinite eternity "we are working on it"
Finally to start producing some type of product then try to sale it to public at Gen Con before backers
In January 2017 there will be a posting from Kevin stating that the Backers ruined the community with their negative attacks
and they can no longer pursue Robotech Tactics because so many people turned against it.
Genoside07 wrote: In January 2017 there will be a posting from Kevin stating that the Backers ruined the community with their negative attacks
and they can no longer pursue Robotech Tactics because so many people turned against it.
It is like you connected to Kevin's thought process.
Sorry for you!
In a roundabout way all these negative "vibes" would repel Kev from RRT because there is "no glory in it".
He is all about attention and acclaim.
BUT having to work for it is not his thing.
So we COULD be to blame for the lack of progress because we have not provided the appropriate motivation.
I think he really would blame us for it or else those starter boxes should be selling like hotcakes as planned. You know whomever had the brainwave to order so much retail stock would be blameless and we know who is in control...
A part of me is curious of where ~$1.5 million went, you-know, because I am all about pie-chart info-blurbs.
Genoside07 wrote: In January 2017 there will be a posting from Kevin stating that the Backers ruined the community with their negative attacks and they can no longer pursue Robotech Tactics because so many people turned against it.
It is like you connected to Kevin's thought process. Sorry for you!
It's dangerous to stare into the abyss of incompetence, vanity, and greed for too long lest it notice you and stare back. Genoside, if you start noticing that you instinctively reach for the "take a penny, leave a penny" change plate to take it all when paying despite having a pocket full of change, you may have been "redefined" by your connection with the Siembieda.
In January 2017 there will be a posting from Kevin stating that the Backers ruined the community with their negative attacks
and they can no longer pursue Robotech Tactics because so many people turned against it.
And a few days later he'll give the community a special chance to redeem itself by donating yet more money to saving the kickstarter. Oh, and he'll print your name in a rifter as a hero. Or at least till he gets tired of doing it, and then claim he lost the rest of the names, but you'll all have a special place in his heart.
Or they didn't update their email addresses necessary to print their names... and the "heroes of robotech" book will come out half assed and years late like the Crisis of TreacheryTM one did.
Kevin's keyboard is so old it doesn't have a @ symbol so emails are impossible to list for him.
But we could make bad jokes all day about him and Palladium; but the truth is a lot of customers and
game shops have lost confidence in the company and their products. My FLGS use to order 6-8
Rifters when they came out and always had a good stock of assorted rule books on hand.
Now it looks like the stock is abandoned and not seen anything new in a while; never point black
asked the owner what his feeling of the company but the stock shows a sign of what is going on.
Plus a lot of online game stores (Miniature Market, Cool Stuff and others) have all clearance out
a lot of their stuff.. And keeps minimum quantities in stock, if any at all..
As a company that would scare most into doing something different or try to improve, but with Kevin
its business as normal. We are doing nothing wrong .. its everyone else has the problems
Swabby wrote: I haven't seen a palladium game played in a game store once in this century. Not even an exaggeration.
Or this millenium. Same here (haven't seen a palladium game played in store since the mid 90's and it was my group that time because the GM/host couldn't use his basement due to a flood, lol). The only stores I've seen stock palladium books were stores that were around when Palladium was relevant 15+ years ago and even then most of the stock (judging from the dust as well as edition number/printing years) dates from that time period as well. I have yet to see a newer store regularly stock their products.
RPGs in general has moved to be a lot more upmarket, affordable, and electronic over the last decade or so; PB's offering of a cheap format has largely been sidelined due to the improving value of other systems and the move towards electronic media.
It doesn't help that PB's mechanical system has largely went untouched for years, while other systems continually tweaked and expanded themselves. Essentially, PB is looking at their own obsolescence, by not keeping up with the times.
Lynx7725 wrote: It doesn't help that PB's mechanical system has largely went untouched for years, while other systems continually tweaked and expanded themselves. Essentially, PB is looking at their own obsolescence, by not keeping up with the times.
That's not what it looks like in their delusional world view. Didn't you hear that 10 years ago roughly Blizzard asked the master wordsmith Kevin to come speak at their HQ? And fans like Jorel still buy every book (and multiples of others even when he's supposedly furious with them!) when there is a quarter that actually has one come out! Feedback from the last open house told Kevin that 99% of fans want him to keep going as is, even if they didn't know that question was even asked or that they answered it in such a way. Secrecy is still paramount at Palladium and they can't reveal their plans because the entire industry is waiting with baited breath to see what Kevin will redefine next so that they can follow suit. The only reason they've haven't yet reached the pinnacle of success and top seller spot is because of the ongoing treachery from without and a conspiracy without. What other reason could there be? In the meantime, just like the robots in the Matrix trilogy, they're willing to accept lower levels of existence (like cold, dark warehouses apparently and unpaid or deliquently paid freelancers handing in substandard work) in preparation for their ultimate victory.
warboss wrote: And fans like Jorel still buy every book (and multiples of others even when he's supposedly furious with them!) when there is a quarter that actually has one come out!
Well, truth be told, given Palladium's yearly output that's actually not that wondrous of a feat, all told.
Now, show me someone keeping up with all the Star Wars RPG releases for the last years and I'll show you a very dedicated fan indeed.
warboss wrote: And fans like Jorel still buy every book (and multiples of others even when he's supposedly furious with them!) when there is a quarter that actually has one come out!
Well, truth be told, given Palladium's yearly output that's actually not that wondrous of a feat, all told.
Now, show me someone keeping up with all the Star Wars RPG releases for the last years and I'll show you a very dedicated fan indeed.
True.. and I did acknowledge that with the whole quarter comment. The other thing to take note is that those Star Wars fans are typically *star wars* fans and not generally *all things george lucas* cult of personality fans like with Palladium. They buy from a single IP and not some Red Tails vehicle supplement, Indiana Jones crossover adventure, or THX 1138 character pack. The palladium white knights I'm referring to buy everything they put out from Rifters to their zombie book line to RIfts to HU. Added together over 20-30 years of stagnation/production and I'm sure they'll give those fictional Star Wars rpg flash in pan fans a run for their spent money.
RPGs I still see around, Pathfinder and the latest D&D get trotted out regularly.
Now to see the Pathfinder Rifts played would be interesting to see if it happens.
What I want to know is where are these 10 odd people up the road (next nearest city) who bought some RRT starter boxes?
Should attach a contact list with every box.
Ah well, got a local tournament for Bolt Action for January so getting the American Airborne hordes assembled/painted is the plan.
I can't imagine Kevin allowing another D20 upstart anywhere near his system. Somehow, I imagine mere mention that his own d20 system being a derivative of some other (in)famous D20 system might send him into a tizzy.
I mean, this is the guy who believes he's re-invented the zombie genre with the likes of the Walking Dead having been on TV for the last 4-5 years.
You got it all wrong. Kevin told us that Alex told him that he thinks Kevin redefined the zombie genre, which Alex totally didn't like before Kevin put his golden hands to it.
Funny that you should mention Dead Reign. In the latest PBWU under the Xmas Cash Grab comments, someone asked about the possibility of a Dead Reign RPG tactics.
Kev's response was that after Rifts RPG Tactics, Dead Reign RPG Tactics gets asked about the most. I guess he doesn't visit the Kickstarter comments or the Facebook page and/or has tuned out anyone who isn't a member of the Cult of Kevin.
BTW, I couldn't even find the section on Robotech RPG Tactics in this week's update.
cannonfodr wrote: Funny that you should mention Dead Reign. In the latest PBWU under the Xmas Cash Grab comments, someone asked about the possibility of a Dead Reign RPG tactics.
Kev's response was that after Rifts RPG Tactics, Dead Reign RPG Tactics gets asked about the most. I guess he doesn't visit the Kickstarter comments or the Facebook page and/or has tuned out anyone who isn't a member of the Cult of Kevin.
BTW, I couldn't even find the section on Robotech RPG Tactics in this week's update.
I'd bet that the number of people asking for Rifts and Dead Reign RPG Tactics combined is about two orders of magnitude less than the number of people wondering where the stuff they paid for is.
But 1.5 million dollars from over 5,000 people has garnered less enthusiasm from Kevin than selling 150 packs of cheap playing cards...
n815e wrote: You got it all wrong. Kevin told us that Alex told him that he thinks Kevin redefined the zombie genre, which Alex totally didn't like before Kevin put his golden hands to it.
Ah, well, in that case insert a "Kevin's Special Sauce Makes Everything Better" joke here.
"I am a fan-friend. And a fan-friend just believes..."
There's a lot more potential for adapting I Believe from Trey Parker and Matt Stone's the Book of Mormon, I just need some time and motivation to do it.
Be careful what you wish for... Look at Kevin.. He wished for a big pile of money and got it...
Now people expect him to actually do something for it...
I just realized Palladium games has a twitter page.. Not sure how it works but notice it is about the only social media place the RTT ranters don't post..
The Kick Starter and their face book page is always full of people asking what is going on with it years later. It is impossible for them
not to know the community is very outraged with them and wonder how Kevin can sleep at night..
One of the funniest thing I read though was someone thought that Kevin had Alzheimers, listing facts why he thought that...
But honestly... I got rid of all my stuff and even if I got everything I was owed tomorrow the game is dead to me.
I did feel disgusted when I saw that the RTT kick starter was the highest amount that I ever backed of any other one. And
it put me off of future kick starters like the Chaosium's new Cthulhu books that actually was completed long ago..
Oh no. While Chaosium has produced good stuff with their KS (again, something PB hasn't) they were absurdly late, cancelled all the not-a-book-or-card stuff, and still haven't finished producing or shipping a last few things.
So, again, while they will actually finish their KS relatively soonish, they also blew it. Of course in their case, Charlie Krank, the guy responsible (and who had his minion actively post actually 100% false lies in updates) managed to lose his job/ownership of the company.
I think most don't do their home work or don't realize what is involved..
As with RTT, Palladium games did not have a back ground in making plastic miniatures
and thought it was easy as calling a company in china and saying send me a 1000
Things like product testing and minimum order size is normal practice for manufacturing
but seems crazy to someone that don't know what color they want..
I think that is what bit Kevin in the butt.. he saw a price break at larger order numbers
then thought he could sale everything by the truck load and make buckets of money
You also have to keep in mind it's doubtful that they understood the idea that KickStarter is not a pre-order system. In a vacuum of ignorance, you could see that 5,300+ people were willing to give money sight-unseen to the product. If you then decided that based on your decades of experience in the gaming business (and how someone on your staff explained the idea of Kickstarter using the hand puppets), that this was the same as a pre-order and pre-orders represent 40-50% (number made up) of what you typically sell in the first months of release then you would want to double-up the order. That would practically be money in the bank, because you're going to sell through those to retail and be golden.
The problem is outside of the vacuum of ignorance, the KS model seems to more often be very front-loaded versus pre-orders, especially with large, well-publicized products that cater to a specific niche (in this case, people who remember Robotech/Macross and are also miniatures gamers). While there are projects that go on to enjoy retail success as well, it's seeming to be more the exception than the rule. Many anecdotes of store owners align with this theory that much of the initial market demand is sated by the project itself, so subsequent sales are often disappointing; never mind the delays and ill-will that companies often engender along the way.
So I can see where PB would have thought it was a "safe bet" to go for the larger order. A scenario based on them not actually understanding how anything made after 1989 works seems to be a contender at any rate.
You make some good points but the issue with RTT is that Palladium (lets be more accurate Kevin) made a flwed judgement when it came to first spitting the production into two waves and then going overboard on wave 1.
The first decision pushed up their costs - simply postage already underestimated was probably doubling. I suspect that this then prompted Kevin into the poor deceision to overproduce wave 1, in the hope that retail sales woukd offset these costs - I concede thatt it may have also be maginally cheaper to have a larger initial run
The result is an unforseen massive overspend on their part, that they cannot finamce. Hence, the continuous stall tactics we have all become familiar with over the last months or more. This is, at least in my opinion , unlikely to change in the coming year.
Palladium and Kevin know they cannot pay for Wave 2 - and have known this for years - and hope above hope that we simply fade into apathy and go away
wilycoyote wrote: Palladium and Kevin know they cannot pay for Wave 2 - and have known this for years - and hope above hope that we simply fade into apathy and go away
They have succeeded.
But it is a mixed thing since this is the biggest captive audience they have had in decades.
I guess they are hoping we play a "real" game like RPGs.
Since the KS this is the most "relevant" they have been for ages.
Their main brainpower is being spent trying to figure out how to do something like this again but convince everyone "this time is different".
To pre-emptively ban the naysayers would be a wanted thing so saps... er, "customers" fall into the trap of the insanely long PB pre-order delay.
One of the other two guys I backed with as a group works for the shop, and all three of us occasionally attend conventions to sell snacks at. Whenever we see Robotech stuff, it's kind of an in-joke between us.
My 2017 goal is to finish painting my RRT. Of course, that was my 2016 goal. And 2015...
Interestingly enough... if you take out "painting my" then you have Palladium's supposed goal for those years plus 2014 and 2013! I hope you've gotten more work done towards completion than they have.
My 2017 goal is to finish painting my RRT. Of course, that was my 2016 goal. And 2015...
Interestingly enough... if you take out "painting my" then you have Palladium's supposed goal for those years plus 2014 and 2013! I hope you've gotten more work done towards completion than they have.
And while I hope your paints are at least room temp, I hope they aren't boiling!
Here's do a great 2017 - and the successful delivery of Wave 2!
Breaking news from the Palladium Weekly Grab Bag shill... I mean update.... random guy comes to the office and reveals that Kevin is (just like) Santa!
so I’m out there doing my thing and he says, “Wow, you really are like Santa. You’re even checking the list twice.”
Anyone else feel like they've gotten lumps of multi-part coal for years for nicely funding this project?
I'm sure the staff enjoyed having lights and heat on for the office party.
They probably forgot what the place looks like, having learned to navigate by feel.
Well...while I really do hope that Wave 2 gets delivered eventually (but probably not in 2017!), I was playing that mostly for laughs, and you guys did not disappoint!
Talizvar wrote:
Alpharius wrote: Here's do a great 2017 - and the successful delivery of Wave 2!
Oh the pain!
Read this line and coughed coffee up my nose... it burns!
Your optimism is impressive.
Forar wrote:
Alpharius wrote: Here's do a great 2017 - and the successful delivery of Wave 2!
I think this just about sums up the matter;
warboss wrote:Breaking news from the Palladium Weekly Grab Bag shill... I mean update.... random guy comes to the office and reveals that Kevin is (just like) Santa!
so I’m out there doing my thing and he says, “Wow, you really are like Santa. You’re even checking the list twice.”
Anyone else feel like they've gotten lumps of multi-part coal for years for nicely funding this project?
n815e wrote:I'm sure the staff enjoyed having lights and heat on for the office party.
They probably forgot what the place looks like, having learned to navigate by feel.
EXALTS FOR EVERYONE!!!
This thread does serve a purpose - other than updating everyone on the occasional bits of 'news' here - it is a...venting ground...a place to laugh...a place to cry...
...a place to...dream...
OK, OK...
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone - I'm off to watch some old school Gaiking episodes!
(Man, I wish someone would make a game based off of all the late 70's giant robot stuff...)
And with the PBWU being truly banal drek, and no KSU, we have hit a really pathetic milestone. Today marks the 105th day without an Update. The single longest period without one, since the campaign started. Given that the previous record was set this year (104 from April 15th to July 28th), this mean since that April 15th Update, there have been two Updates in 254 days. That's almost a full month longer than this entire campaign was supposed to last (225 days).
Here's a list and quick review of those posts.
July 28th - Starting with "We apologize for the 3 months of MIA" and ending with "You’ll start to see more happening soon.", with very little of note, and nothing concrete, in between.
Sept 10th - Starting with "Hey, guys. It’s Wayne. Sorry for the long silence." and ending with "Whenever there are major announcements or significant developments, I will of course post them here.", with at least the mention of the DTRPG cards.
And that's it.
So, nothing of significance, and even smaller things (like the announcement that the DTRPG thing is complete, for those people interested in getting those once they were finished) not worthy of an update. It looks like they're punting on any news until they get the announcement they're expecting regarding manufacturing (that it's fallen through), at the end of January. Which given PB, will probably be delayed. And will likely give no idea (+/- 6 months) on a finish date, or even an estimate on the next estimate.
Just a reminder, the last thing on the front page of the Kickstarter, before the FAQ.
It is our commitment to you, the Kickstarter backers, that we will maintain consistent communication throughout the process. This means regular updates, product photos, and plenty of behind the scenes insight as we complete the creation of Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
For someone who's job relies on the written word, Palladium's seeming inability to understand "consistent", "sorry" or "soon", shows a severe lapse in knowledge. Either that, or they're liars.
Because they can continue to "we are working on it" for eternity.. with no other than internet rants that they never read or care about.
Look at their past history with "pre order books" you have people willing to prebuy the book and still no rush to get it done.
I hate to say it but I think we will see something bad happen to Kevin first.. then Palladium goes either bankrupt or just closes instead of seeing
anything from wave 2..
There was so much hope for this.. I planned to use the miniatures for robotech RPG; wanted to see scaled cyclone miniatures, so many low
hanging fruit; but they would instead just ignore it and hopes everything goes away.. All the time spending the money to buy another animation cel
or vintage action figure.. Because those are always great investments...
Given Kevin's exwife still has a share in the company from their divorce I dont know what she would do with it in the event of his demise. I doubt she would go to the effort of keeping it going. Sell it off perhaps, first preference to a fan/s?
evilsmurf wrote: Given Kevin's exwife still has a share in the company from their divorce I dont know what she would do with it in the event of his demise. I doubt she would go to the effort of keeping it going. Sell it off perhaps, first preference to a fan/s?
Quick, someone buy her out and take the reigns of the company and get us our stuff. I'm sure she'd give it away for a song just to cheese KS off.
Palladium most likely has a negative net worth.
The company struggles to stay afloat. I have no clue how much debt it is carrying, but Kevin has admitted there is debt (prior to kickstarter).
It sits on a lot of dead stock.
Would anyone with any sense actually want to own it?
winterdyne wrote: The sad thing is I reckon the IP and licenses PB sit on are actually capable of carrying a company fairly well.
It's only really ineptitude and unwillingness to move with the times that's holding them back.
It really does feel like that, doesn't it?
Like they're doing the BARE MINIMUM to just 'survive' rather than working hard to actually thrive...
Not unexpected, basking in past glories is typical for people once they reach Kevin's age. He's not interested in creating new glories and playing the game but content about telling the world about the few touchdowns that he did make.....
Robotech® is getting hotter and hotter. It is the Number One Anime on Crackle, the Robotech® movie from Sony Pictures sounds like it is going to be become a reality, more Robotech® licensed products are appearing, and Palladium is gearing up toward the release of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two and more Robotech® products. Ah, but the core game and expansion packs to get you started are available right now.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast-paced, tabletop combat game that captures the action and adventure of the Robotech® anime. Two or more players can engage in small squad skirmishes or scale up to massive battles. Relive the clashes of the First Robotech War, engage in stand-alone tactical games, or use the dynamic game pieces to enhance your Robotech® RPG experience. Or simply collect your favorite mecha from an expanding range of top-notch game pieces. Get yours now."
Swabby wrote: "Robotech® is getting hotter and hotter. It is the Number One Anime on Crackle"
Yeah, so after several statements by PB on this, I finally went looking. Robotech doesn't appear on the Crackle website, at least under an easily findable method. Several links from other sites that popped up in Google that lead to Crackle end up in 404 errors.
And a quick look around Crackle doesn't show Only 9 Anime shows do, and excusing that I'm not a big fan, I recognize none of them. Looking at the rest of their catalog, and it's quite underwhelming. 22 tv shows in total, and less than 120 movies. Granted, it's a free service, but still....
So, to sum up, PB's claim is the very definition of a "big fish, small pond" scenario, setting the conditions so that it's technically accurate, and even then is wrong, by it being, you know, broken. So, totally and completely a PB move.
Swabby wrote: Might as well be saying that Robotech is the #1 anime in Siberia. It means nothing.
Exactly. But that's the Palladium way. Controlling the criteria and twisting things to make it seem like things are much different than they are. The infamous 99% of PB fans thinking PB were going in the right direction one from the Open House (because people who didn't, weren't really fans, and it was all done "secretly" so as not to bias the poll). Or the GenCon vote, where if you didn't vote, it counted for their position (even though a large number of backers have NEVER commented).
I understand a company wanting to put the best spin on things, but PB take their contortionism of facts to ludicrous levels.
Swabby wrote: "Robotech® is getting hotter and hotter. It is the Number One Anime on Crackle"
Yeah, so after several statements by PB on this, I finally went looking. Robotech doesn't appear on the Crackle website, at least under an easily findable method. Several links from other sites that popped up in Google that lead to Crackle end up in 404 errors.
And a quick look around Crackle doesn't show Only 9 Anime shows do, and excusing that I'm not a big fan, I recognize none of them. Looking at the rest of their catalog, and it's quite underwhelming. 22 tv shows in total, and less than 120 movies. Granted, it's a free service, but still....
So, to sum up, PB's claim is the very definition of a "big fish, small pond" scenario, setting the conditions so that it's technically accurate, and even then is wrong, by it being, you know, broken. So, totally and completely a PB move.
On Crackle, if you go to "TV" and scroll down, it show right there on the 5th row (also, selecting "Anime" from the genre list puts it as the second series available. I did notice, however, you can't search for it unless you've already selected "TV". Overall, wasn't hard to find.
Still, the fact it isn't making enough money that it's showing up on a free TV does not inspire confidence. For most companies, if you IP has value, you don't give it away for free (must be how PB can afford it, I guess).
And a Robotech movie is about as likely as a Rifts movie, and far more likely than Wave 2. I will say, after having watched the Battleship Yamato live-action movie, I hope a live-action Robotech is never made. It'll be a mess.
Stormonu wrote: On Crackle, if you go to "TV" and scroll down, it show right there on the 5th row (also, selecting "Anime" from the genre list puts it as the second series available. I did notice, however, you can't search for it unless you've already selected "TV". Overall, wasn't hard to find.
Still, the fact it isn't making enough money that it's showing up on a free TV does not inspire confidence. For most companies, if you IP has value, you don't give it away for free (must be how PB can afford it, I guess).
And a Robotech movie is about as likely as a Rifts movie, and far more likely than Wave 2. I will say, after having watched the Battleship Yamato live-action movie, I hope a live-action Robotech is never made. It'll be a mess.
OK, I'll accept your word on it that it's still available. It must be one of those stupid geo-blocking things and it's not available in Australia, because I just checked again, and it's not showing up (and like I said, direct links from other sites gave a 404 error). So... way to artificially limit your audience, Crackle. That's a very Palladium thing to do.
And on the movie front, absolutely. It COULD be done well. The technology IS there. But it's way more likely to be screwed up in some significant manner (see Transformers, several iterations of TMNT, Speed Racer, DragonBall Z) than it is to be good. Also, given fans tend to be purists, significant deviations might also see the same kind of backlash we see when a studio doesn't take that into account. Gender, orientation or racial swaps (the latter being open for huge amounts of irony), or a completely different backstory could be controversial.
Hell, just updating the mecha to a different form could be problematic. With F-14's not being in service for over a decade (iconic, but still outdated, putting it in the same category as VW Beetle/Bumblebee), and the intellectual property of Northrop Grumman. It's one thing to fudge around that with cartoons, but unless they have that license locked in (and happening before international copyrights were enforced heavily), I can see a live action version being potentially litigious. Speaking of, most reports mention Sony acquiring the rights to Robotech, but until I see a press release saying that it was with BOTH parties that claim ownership, I'll still be expecting a lawsuit.
Yeah, probably geo-blocked; I watched the first 10 minutes of Boobytrapped on Crackle while checking the links.
On the movie front, the one thing they could do with the Veritech is use the Alpha design instead of the F-14, it'd be a little strange, but it would evade the Grumman issue and make it look a little more "modern".
However, with the legal tangle of Macross/Robotech, I'd really be surprised Sony would touch a movie - I certainly can't see it showing up in Japan.
In the end, I just wish Robotech would get taken away from PB & HG, and we get access to all the Macross stuff that's been out for years - it has a viable future if it could get a legal international audience. Robotech, on the other hand, is dead. Its attempts to come back to life via the Shadow Chronicles was a face-plant instead - 'bout like this KS. (And then, of course, there was the Robotech Academy fiasco by HG no less).
Swabby wrote: Might as well be saying that Robotech is the #1 anime in Siberia. It means nothing.
Exactly. But that's the Palladium way. Controlling the criteria and twisting things to make it seem like things are much different than they are. The infamous 99% of PB fans thinking PB were going in the right direction one from the Open House (because people who didn't, weren't really fans, and it was all done "secretly" so as not to bias the poll). Or the GenCon vote, where if you didn't vote, it counted for their position (even though a large number of backers have NEVER commented).
I understand a company wanting to put the best spin on things, but PB take their contortionism of facts to ludicrous levels.
Did I post this? I seem to remember typing this before. Well, if I did, then please forgive me for repeating myself.
Years ago, sometime between the two US wars in Iraq, there was a news story about Saddam Hussein holding elections. The elections allegedly showed that 99% of citizens approved of Hussein and voted for him as their ruler. The news story definitely presented this as definitive proof of a rigged election, and I definitely understand why. However, if votes are out in the open with your name attached with armed enforcers standing around while you're casting your ballot and the country is run by even half the dictator Hussein was said to be, then you better believe most people are going to vote for the guy. In that light, 99% approval rating seems reasonable.
However, what really stuck with me about the broadcast was not really the narrative. Instead it was a guest commenter who elaborated on the obvious, the narcissism of it all. The commenter observed that here was a man who felt such a need for validation on the public stage that he needed to hold a sham election, lie about the results, and then the absolute minimum approval rating he felt necessary to validate himself was 99%, AND to top it off he felt that was a reasonable and believable result.
Now, I may have my dictator wrong. That's not the point. The point I carried away from that is the image of someone's narcissism was so strong that they couldn't emotionally bear anything less than 99% endorsement in their own fictional world. That's immediately what I thought of following Uncle Kev's announcement of his "poll".
Yeah and Robotech Tactics would have helped bring back the licence, but instead it put another nail in the coffin..
Again as I said before.. I was so hopeful for this game and wanted it to be something like GWs old epic; but with the whole line
of figures with conventional military mixed in... Now we have a BIG pile of steaming mess..
At my work we had a meeting about 2017 capital.. every project requires it..
So lets look at one of Palladium's project in 2016, the savage world rifts playing cards that they printed 150 of..
That tells you the available capital for projects.. also shows you that wave two is just a wishful ghost..
So I have about the same odds of winning the lottery as getting anything from wave 2.
And on the movie front, absolutely. It COULD be done well. The technology IS there. But it's way more likely to be screwed up in some significant manner (see Transformers, several iterations of TMNT, Speed Racer, DragonBall Z) than it is to be good.
Am i late to this?
I havent really got the time to read ALL the replies so i'll just get up on the soap box
If theres any financial trouble with this game, its undoubtably Harmony Gold's doing. Harmony Gold is flat broke and have resorted to harassing various toy companies over F-14 licenses for the past few years as they are too broke to do anything.
I'm certainly not one of those Macross 'purists', i love Robotech, I respect Carl Macek. I just think the franchise needs to go to a competant company
You really should read up on this kickstarter before assigning blame. HG are responsible for the sorry state of the overall franchise but the massive delays that effectively equate to a failure of delivery for half the reward model sculpts and the ongoing coverup are Palladium's fault. Palladium and no one else had a massive financial success and squandered it. If anything, HG have proven by their inaction that they're a relatively hands OFF licensor who doesn't care much that Palladium is shrinking their customer base.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Happy New Year tonight!
Warboss well said on the post you left. I just want say to here. Happy New Year and be safe out there. 2017 from PB and Kev is more of 2016 to 2017 no wave 2.
n815e wrote: Well, the thread asking if PB owed us an apology disappeared somewhat quickly.
What on PB's forums? That sort of thread would have been stillborn.
[in Trixie's voice]
"The Mighty Kevin Owes No One an Apology!!!"
[in slightly lower voice]
"Everyone owes me one though, cuz I'm going to totally nail it in 2017."
I have to say, I was feeling rather worn out, so I took Christmas and Monday off, and the guys got a well deserved three day weekend.
I can't figure out if he was actually planning on being open for business and just decided to call "the guys" and tell them " I'm going to be nice and give you some time off today" or if this is more of his malarkey about "working so hard".
Either way, this makes him look like a lousy boss.
Then on Tuesday, I surprised the crew by taking them to see Star Wars: Rogue One.
He probably made them pay for themselves. But there goes another 'productive' day at PB...
Why does Palladium extend this amazing offer? Because we realize many of you are so full of the Christmas Spirit that you spend your money on gifts for your loved ones rather than yourself. This wonderful act of charity often leaves no money for you to buy a Palladium Surprise Package for yourself. We think that sacrifice is pretty awesome and what the holiday season is all about, so we extend the offer so that you selfless souls can pick up a Surprise Package after the holidays
This paragraph shows that he has no idea what the season is about, nor what charity, sacrifice or selflessness really is.
Then, of course, there are "big plans" and things are going to change this year (no, really, I pinky-swear this time!)...
As far as I am concerned, the New Year should mark the beginning of a new era for Palladium Books. That’s how big and exciting our plans are for the future, starting with 2017. In addition to plans for all our game lines, we are looking at some potential prospects that should take shape over the next few years. Things that may involve film, television and video games based on various Palladium intellectual properties. We are also looking hard at starting a Palladium podcast about role-playing games, game design, the art of running and playing RPGs and the history of Palladium Books. I will talk more about these things in upcoming Weekly Updates.
A Palladium podcast? That should be worth a giggle, if we all knew it wouldn't be a groan-inducing chop job that is nothing more than a 30-minute late-night TV commercial.
I love how most companies would say "over the next few months", and PB has to frame it as "next few years", just to make it sound half-believable.
We all know the movie won't happen, and I doubt there'll ever be another video game (even though Retro 8-bit games are a thing, just - no).
In short, more vaporware (unicorn farts disguised as rainbows) coming from PB.
It is my own fault, I like starting threads over on the PB boards, simply to show we have not gone away - and okay it is also to poke a stick at the sleeping bear.
On a positive note, if they are deleting them at least it means that someone might be reading them, even if it is only NMI.
Are the ones of us who helped saved Palladium Books and won/earned a fully developed character ever going to see the promised reward.
From FB. How many years ago was that? And they still haven't done something that would take very little of their time?
But they helped save Palladium, enabling Kevin to continue to slowly release projects well below company expectations, and to move on to projects that interest him on a whim.
People expecting Kevin to follow through on a promise years after money was exchanged? Ungrateful bastards. The bi-annual release of a book (that you probably have to buy direct) should be reward enough.
The other thing is Palladium usually sends out every Thursday .. "We are working on it" It's now Friday .. does this mean they
have given up on weekly non updates now?? Also just a few more weeks to the end of January when they will announce the new
date when we might get another date about what might be an update on RTT..
Genoside07 wrote: The other thing is Palladium usually sends out every Thursday .. "We are working on it" It's now Friday .. does this mean they
have given up on weekly non updates now?? Also just a few more weeks to the end of January when they will announce the new
date when we might get another date about what might be an update on RTT..
It's often a Thursday, but it's occasionally a Friday, and rarely a Saturday. So it's not like it's completely unprecedented.
And I just read the RRT Kickstarter Comments, specifically Kickstarter's position, and it's truly weak.
Kickstarter need to understand they're enabling this gak. They don't need to do much. Seriously. I don't expect them to go on and sue Palladium or anything. It's very fething simple what they should do.
1) Email PB requiring a deadline for completion. Give them two weeks to respond. Explain the consequences (ie, Point 2)
2) When the deadline is complete, or if they fail to respond, declare that the project is a failure as far as Kickstarter is concerned, and that people should seek refunds, or take legal action.
It's COMPLETELY Kickstarter's fault that PB are able to hide behind the skirts of Kickstarter's Terms and Conditions. Hell, PB have explicitly said they're NOT in breach because of those reasons. And any lawsuit would have to first circumvent that gak. Kickstarter dropping that protective shield would go a long way to allowing that to happen.
And it's not like they have to be actively aggressive about it. PB can give a timeframe that's realistic, but it just means they can't keep pushing this crap year in, year out. They want to set 2020 as the deadline? Not great, but it tempers expectations, AND means there's finally a firm date regarding completion or refund. And setting 2020 would show the backers just how little they've done. But Kickstarter just wringing their hands and saying they can't do anything, when all they need to do is take a small step to the left, is pathetic.
So, is the consensus that Palladiums reply to Kickstarters enquiry on how the project was going is the cause for kickstarters response to the backer? There's definitely some kind of escalation there, usually it's just the cut and paste "we'll encourage the creator to respond".
Did Palladium admit they can't or won't complete the project?
Or was Palladiums answer so see through it was obvious to Kickstarter they can't complete?
Or did Palladium just not bother responding?
Just got the Palladium weekly update... the closest thing to Robotech Tactics is the mentioned
"various robotech projects".. great.. we spend over a million dollars with your company and just
become a side bar..
Lynx7725 wrote: So it's now 2017. I know someone was tracking, how's PB's delivery % like for 2016? I think it was what, one book out of 8 promised?
That was me! And they managed to get a second book in, just under the wire. Hell Followed arrived and started shipping December 8th. The only other book, Heroes of Humanity, also barely slipped under the wire for the half-year, starting shipping on June 16th. Other than a few Rifters, and sundry paraphernalia that was the entirety of PB's contribution to new releases this year.
EDIT: And yes, it was for 8 books. But remember, that was for all 8 in the first half of 2016. Because if there's one thing PB are known for, it's setting unreasonable expectations.
The latest PBWU does have one strange line though...
Thanks for letting me do a short Update, as I am feeling pretty wiped out and not up to writing anything more extensive.
Umm... is this a cry for help from Kevin? Does Wayne make him sit down and write these things, and Wayne didn't proofread before sending it out? Cause I know I sure as gak don't give him permission one way or the other. As has been said by a few people in the past, for a company that's entire business is based around the written word, when it comes to communicating via text, Kevin sure does suck at it.
The latest non update on the PBWU is simply setting the stage for the big announcement at the end of the month.
Sorry we cannot reduce the parts count on the RTT models, but never fear we are going to plam B and manufacture those we planned back in 2015. Howver, our previous manufacturer has upgraded so all files will need to be reviewed, but this cannot start until after the Chinese New Year, so we will let you know at the end of March
Of course by then kevin will be putting all his and Palldium's efforts into the Rifts boardgame kickstarter.
Well I hope everyone great Holiday week with Christmas and the New Year. Now it begin with the same crap from PB and Kev no updates at all. I have been else where there no love for Robotech and Robotech Tactics RPG. Oh by the way wilycoyote how long do think your latest thread at PB forum going to last?I do agree with your post above me right now.
I will only give it a day or two - my own fault I started nice but the latest no news on the PBWU, get me going back in a little heated.
Then nil desperandum, I will be niggling them again there and whereever I can, If only to annoy Kevin who thinks we should be good Rifters and just quietly wait for years while telling him he is the best thing since sliced bread.
n815e wrote: The thing about that is, nobody at Palladium reads their own forums or FB.
As unbelievable as that seems, it's true.
Not as an excuse but what can we expect from a company where the owner is egotistical to the point where he ignores criticism and expunges it when possible and then has a lot of employees that work where their jobs depend upon that good will? The owner rarely ever reads stuff from his own sites. So employees "cleanse" things to protect themselves so that when he does go to the site all he sees are kudos left and right. The root of the problem is the egotistical behavior/mentality that drives the rest. The employees cannot be completely faulted for what they do, although in the end their behavior is also a driver to the whole mess.
Mike1975 wrote: The root of the problem is the egotistical behavior/mentality that drives the rest. The employees cannot be completely faulted for what they do, although in the end their behavior is also a driver to the whole mess.
Yeah, I hate to say the employees can largely be faulted for what they do.
They "enable" him.
Oh, Kev is the problem for sure, the root cause of all this mess.
But people choose to be employees, choose to be fans, choose to kiss that ego of his so he can be "happy".
I have worked for TWO people like this guy (I suck for bosses until my latest who is awesome) you be a "yes" man (an "ill do my best" if you feel adventurous) and bide your time and fire-up that resume like nobody's business.
They are all answerable to 5000+ people for ~$1.5 million dollars of agreed rewards they are supposedly legally bound to provide.
I just wish I could add "in a timely fashion".
I keep having flashbacks of talking to Kevin and Wayne having a full spectrum of looks on his face behind Kevin: "uh-oh!", "don't go there!", "oh no, not this topic, he will go on forever...", "hey! good one!"... it is like he was trying to "save me" from the wrath of Kevin by doing everything but wave hands in the air or do charades... it was oddly touching that he cared.
These people appear at first to be "victims" but it is some strange Stockholm Syndrome condition.
In the end they will trade-in their morals to avoid confrontation.
A rather despicable way to live.
So yeah, not a penny more to them ($1 for KS comment rights if I must... )
Got a deal on new computers for my kids and a roundabout upgrade for my older machine so I have been living the IT support life at the moment.
Now I just have to get my eldest kid to stop getting smacked down by You-Tube by not posting videos properly and getting banned (He was freaking out!).
I just told him to set up an account at Palladium Books Forums and see how long it takes NMI to ban him... he will be an old hand at taking rejection in no-time!
It's also obvious to me that nobody at PB knows anything about farming or retail. Farmers know about crop rotation, retailers know about stock rotation.
With the amount of manure that we keep getting from PB, there ought to be some mighty fine Roses growing by now, but all we get is the same old Rhubarb as before!
Conrad Turner wrote: With the amount of manure that we keep getting from PB, there ought to be some mighty fine Roses growing by now, but all we get is the same old Rhubarb as before!
I am sorry, what you said there automatically made me think of this:
I can at least say I have provided "Jack" with a nonsense platitude: which is more than PB has provided in the last couple years.
We appear to get the rhubarb without the benefit of the roses (or was that wave 1?).
Actually, if I think of the Joker saying what Kevin says, it seems better somehow.
I was reading an interesting article on the rise and fall of TSR and this paragraph sounded familiar
Ryan Dancey, who worked for Wizards of the Coast in reviewing TSR at the time of acquisition provides a vivid firstperson
account of visiting TSR in its last days and a clearcut explanation of the problem: "Inside the building, I found
a dead company... I read the severance agreements between the company and departed executives which paid them
extraordinary sums for their silence.... I toured a warehouse packed from floor to 50 foot ceiling with products valued
as though they would soon be sold to a distributor with production stamps stretching back to the late 1980s...No
customer profiling information. No feedback. No surveys. No "voice of the customer". TSR, it seems, knew nothing
about the people who kept it alive. The management of the company made decisions based on instinct and gut feelings;
not data... TSR died because it was deaf."
I wonder what keeps their doors open really.. I think they are staffed with full time employees, so payroll is important to those people.
But if you look at Palladium website they still have rifters from way back and it wouldn't surprise me they reprint them.
Their business plan ended in the 90's and as long as some money trickles in to pay the bills they keep doing that they did yesterday.
There are fans of the games that help things rolling, but the all the games they own are either poorly written or so old and convoluted
no one can make heads or tails of it.
I think it was great they tried something new with RRT, but to be still clueless years later is sad. No one said it would be easy but
not trying to fix your problems in front of you, that many people have already paid for is inexcusable.
Another thing that killed TSR was they started to ignore the RPG game world and tired on focusing on making a card game that would
compete with Magic.
I feel if Kevin brought in someone young executive from a Wizards or Fantasy flight type company and listened to them. I think they could be a
competitive company again with in a few years..
First thing.. Either refund the money or get in production RRT - Get the problem behind you and start trying to repair the community.
Second thing .. Map out Rifts and all the games to show the levels of each RCC and OCC identifying their play level; because no one wants to be
a first level thief in a game with a machine gun welding dragon.(there's a book idea for you)
Third thing. Stop producing Rifters; they act like its some type of monthly magazine like white dwarf or dragon.. but it is not.. I can not call up those company
and get the 12th issue, it was printed and gone..
In a fantasy world, those would be very good things to see. In the real world, I don't see any of it coming to pass. Kevin will only ever listen to Kevin; anyone who disagrees with him isn't really a fan and thus isn't important. You can see the vicious (il)logical loop there. On the specific points:
First thing they don't have the money to do either option in all likelihood. Even holding aside the very-likely scenario where they spent KS funds on the non-moving retail stock, the increases in shipping in the intervening 3.5 years would likely make that untenable. PB could try to ask for more funds for shipping, but this would entail them actually showing the product which they've to date not done at all. Doing a refund might be possible in this "they didn't piss away the money" world, but that's not a "save the company" move at this point. It'd tidy up things, but absent truly high-quality product being delivered I'm not sure there's any path with even a *chance* of salvaging most people's opinions, and some are absolutely irreparable at this point.
Second thing they won't do largely because it'd involve them going back and trying to put coherency into their products, which to my knowledge has never really been a priority. Not a bad idea, and you'd think they'd have already done it but I doubt anyone could anything done in such a dysfunctional company.
Third thing is a mixed bag. Rifter is no where near the level of a regular magazine, but you have to keep in mind that White Dwarf for many years was akin to paying for advertising. I've not read a Rifter, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they actually had more useful content in them than the Kirby-era White Dwarfs. However, the point on Dragon is solid; monthly magazines are no longer the most effective way to get information to people interested in your products which was the claimed reason for them stopping the print version. Given the complete lack of technological advancement evidenced by PB though, it's safe to say that it will never occur until Kevin is not running things.
So yes, your plan (outside of the 1st thing being unlikely due to lack of money) is pretty good but will never happen because PB's core issue is Kevin, and he's also the core of PB. Sure you could outright replace Kevin and probably solve a great deal, but why bother? As someone said a while ago on the topic of taking over PB the name has become so polarizing it's not worth it to try and repair the brand versus just starting a new one and acquiring the useful IPs.
You do have to wonder though if anyone at PB noticed another campaign that had some notable hiccups (almost years delayed, surprise shipping costs, cancelled-and-refunded products, etc.) just finished another campaign that clocked in the #4 funding total on KickStarter and six times the original campaign. Obviously comparing that to this project is an apples-to-socket-wrench comparison, but it does seem to drive home that people will put up with quite a great deal if the final product is of appropriate quality. It's also kind of a "what might have been" moment had PB handled this campaign just a smidge better, but that is something of a "if things were different they wouldn't be the same" sort of statement. I'd also imagine if PB did notice, they'd take entirely the wrong lessons out of it...
Harmony Gold saw fit to give the RPG license to Palladium Books.
Not quite sure who would have the equivalent to a "tabletop miniature wargame license" but I digress.
Kevin seems firmly stuck trying to hit that same RPG button that worked in his "glory days" but he is just not hearing the one handed clap in his echo-chamber.
Unfortunately, Kevin is oddly content for a narcissist to bask in past accomplishments or mimic them in the present day.
So we are pretty much at a dead-end where this IP is concerned, quite dead until we as "fan-friends" fade away to other pursuits and he notices.
Oddly, I think the only thing that would be interesting would be to agree to write nothing at the KS, Facebook or their forums for months.
No communication at all would freak him out more than bad communication.
You do have to wonder though if anyone at PB noticed another campaign that had some notable hiccups (almost years delayed, surprise shipping costs, cancelled-and-refunded products, etc.) just finished another campaign that clocked in the #4 funding total on KickStarter and six times the original campaign. Obviously comparing that to this project is an apples-to-socket-wrench comparison, but it does seem to drive home that people will put up with quite a great deal if the final product is of appropriate quality. It's also kind of a "what might have been" moment had PB handled this campaign just a smidge better, but that is something of a "if things were different they wouldn't be the same" sort of statement. I'd also imagine if PB did notice, they'd take entirely the wrong lessons out of it...
I did not back Kingdom Death but I know a few people that did.. He was good about here is what is going on.. Some type of time line.. And I believe one expansion got booted and he returned the money to the backers.
So as a business he communicated the good and bad to his customers.. And now the trust is built they are willing to throw 10 million dollars at him.
Reaper is very good at that also.. they are on like their sixth kick starter.. and third bones.. Right now they are a few months behind but I have no worries because they give continuous updates
and reasonable alternate dates. So there is good people doing good kickstarters out there.. But honestly I feel sorry for the guy doing the Rifts miniature game.. I figure he will get hosed so hard;
he will know what way is up.. Sounds like he is going down the path of this is not Palladium games but everything involved is palladium owned..
Palladium Games Update January 13th, 2017
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
We are getting everything lined up and in place for all things Robotech® and Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave II. As far as we are concerned, releasing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave II by the end of the year is a must! As I mentioned in another Weekly Update, I recently approved the cover for the first RRT scenario book, and we are already working on a second RRT scenario book.
We have also been plotting new adventure sourcebooks that will create new factions, aliens and mecha for Robotech®, one of which is tentatively titled Ghost Fleet. It would take a look at the early days of the UEEF and Shadow Technology, which means all kinds of prototypes and experimental mecha with Shadow Technology, space pirates, rogue Zentraedi, special ops and liberating people and planets from the Invid Regent.
We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so. We know it is frustrating without solid, specific news, as it is for us too, but we are working on it. And excited about finally getting Wave II into your hands.
Note: If you need to change/update your address in BackerKit, please send us a message through Kickstarter, or an email to kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com, and we’ll take care of it. And please, definitely send in those address changes.
Hope to have it before the end of the year... Where have we heard that before??
Genoside07 wrote: Hope to have it before the end of the year... Where have we heard that before??
Oh I dunno... like, every year?
That sounds very Pinky and the Brain.
Flunky "Gee, Vain. What are we going to do this year?"
Vain "The same thing we do every year, Flunky. Try to release Wave 2!"
*the year passes*
Vain "Next year, Flunky, we will come up with a new plan. One that isn't foiled by the failures of others!"
*stomps off*
Vain "Come, Flunky, we must prepare for next year!"
Flunky "Why? What are we going to do next year?"
Vain "Same thing we do every year, Pinky. Try to release Wave 2!"
Flunky "POIT!"
Vain "Flunky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Flunky "I think so, Vain, but then it'd be Snow White and the Seven Samurai..."
Vain "Don't be an idiot, Flunky!"
*Vain scribbles down 'Snow White and the Seven Samurai' in his book of ingenious personal ideas to take sole credit for*
They're clunky, they're junky, they're Flunky and the Vain Vain Vain Vain, Vain Vain Vain Vain... Narf!
Be able to offer a manufacturing timetable in a month??
This is a lot of smoke and I really wonder what fire would cause a timetable to miraculously appear?
There has been zero hurry till now so unless some motivator can be identified I believe nothing.
It may be their "fan" interaction is down so trying another attention grabbing surge of false promises.
I think they are getting a little heat from Harmony Gold and with Rifts Tabletop game kickstarter coming up.
They will take the money from RTT2 to bankroll RTT wave 2, just like they used RTT money to
produce Rifts stuff.. Kevin is so smart.. there is nothing possible could go wrong with this plan..
Genoside07 wrote: I think they are getting a little heat from Harmony Gold and with Rifts Tabletop game kickstarter coming up.
They will take the money from RTT2 to bankroll RTT wave 2, just like they used RTT money to
produce Rifts stuff.. Kevin is so smart.. there is nothing possible could go wrong with this plan..
The chances of them using funds from anything from Rifts KS's or other projects to bankroll Wave 2 are in the negatives, since they've very likely done the opposite.
This KS will never be completed, don't delude yourself other wise.
Stormonu wrote: The chances of them using funds from anything from Rifts KS's or other projects to bankroll Wave 2 are in the negatives, since they've very likely done the opposite.
This KS will never be completed, don't delude yourself other wise.
Yep. There's next to no chance that PB will use funds from this, to finish Wave 2 RRT, if there's even the slightest chance it'll make either the Rifts Boardgame, or the RPG part of the business founder. While Kevin is obviously a fan of Robotech, and has been for years, it has been, and will always be, something he enjoys and makes money off. But RPG's, and Rifts in particular, those are his children. There's simply no way he'll let those lines suffer, to meet his obligations for RRT.
Now, that's not to say if the Rifts Boardgame isn't successful, he can't use the profits to work on completing this project. Nor is it to say that as Forar has suggested on occasion, he can't utilize the RBG to get a cheaper rate on RRT (a larger single order for both games will reduce shipping and production costs for both, assuming he uses the same manufacturer*). Though like Stormonu, I don't think it'll happen.
* That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.
I have to fully agree with this analysis. Kevin is not going to allow his baby "Rifts" to founder like he has done here.
I would suggest that if and when the Rifts BG kickstarter llaunches you will see a much tighter rein on expenses. I would expect a relatively liimited figure range (including any stretch goals put forward) and shipping to be charged as extra on top at the end. The figures themselves wil be boardgame quality softer plastics , likely one piece so no assembly. As a result no cross deals for manufacturing. As an aside I wonder if they will try the new Prodos Unicast as a supposed cheaper route?
Given this is supposed to be an independent project - we can argue with that later - then shifting funds to support RTT is unlikley. In the long run I do not believe that Rifts BG would be a massive retail hit either so little extra monies there. Therefore as regards RTT little has and is likely to change.
The new update is just vaporspeak, suggesting that they will have concrete news in a month or to simply puts everything on hold until after the Rifts BG KS. By that time the window of opportunity for RTT will have closed again and 2017 will be another no show -I fully expect some insider leaks to that effect as soon as Adepticon, but of course Kevin will never admit yet another failure to deliver
That is why I am reporting that project as a fraudulent endeavor the moment it goes live. Having my friend do the same, and he actually still uses Kickstarter for stuff. I refuse to use the thieving platform, they're no better than any other Confidence Person (conman) in the business.
Occam's razor, combined with Kevin being a thief and a liar, I predict we will see:
A stunning declaration, shortly before the Rifts(tm) Tabletop(tm) Board(tm) Game(c) that a manufacturer is lined up and that product will be in the mail by Gen Con.
Shortly after the Rifts(tm) Tabletop(tm) Board(tm) Game(c) funds (and after the pledge manager closes) we will all find out that, oops, problem, and Wave Two will not ship by Gen Con. But it will soon(tm) with soon(tm) stretching on into infinity.
Being Kevin Simibieda, and Palladium Books, being epic-level fethups, they will, in fact, fail to get the pledge manager up and closed before the time in which the product would have had to have shipped.
It will then become clear that they are, in fact, completely full of it, and people will abandon the pledge manager in droves. Well, the sensible ones will, anyway.
Rifts is being handled by someone else..So Kevin will not be at fault.. No matter how much he truly is..
He can and will.. just blame the scapegoat designer for all the delays, errors and what ever
he thinks needs to be washed clean of..
The reporting the project as a fraudulent endeavor is a good idea, because the poor designer is just a front for Kevin because
Palladium games can never show their faces on Kick starter.. Again.. no matter how good or bad it goes, it's not Kevin's fault.
The backing of Wave 2 with rifts table top was kind of a joke.. I know the RTT project is dead.. Besides what would we do
if it was miraculously released was good..We would no longer have a common enemy and Kevin would no longer be considered a moron.
But It would not surprise me if Kevin would do something like that, trying to do the old rob Peter to pay Paul scheme.
Him only ordering 150 savage rifts card packs for a new game release shows he is at the level of basement publishers in numbers.
As a publisher at their point of history, I think they could only get game distributors to pick up minimum numbers out of nostalgia
kindness if any at all. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't go direct as some of the older game companies have done..
* That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.
I have to correct this; RRT is supposed to be produced in ABS (God alone knows why). There are a great many manufacturers who deal in HIPS for wargames minis, not the least of whom are Wargames Factory (who many folks use as their manufacturer).
As Winterdyne wrote, God alone knows why they went for one of the most difficult plastics to produce quality minis in to make this lot from. Maybe Kev heard someone mention HIPS [High Impact PolyStyrene] and thought it meant a person scrimshawing each piece out of a pelvic bone. I wouldn't put it past the man. ABS [Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene] is a 3 part polymer THAT IS NOT TRANSPARENT. Polystyrene IS transparent and therefore you can make transparent cockpits for aircraft models out of the same basic material as the rest and they glue on easily.
ABS is a long molecule made up of 3 different monomers. Acrylonitrile is a plastic, Butadiene is a rubber, and Styrene is a plastic. This is why it can't be compounded as a transparent part, there are 3 different refractive indexes all working against each other Although I suspect that the high-end grades are completely compoundable and produce homogenous melts, they will also be the most expensive grades, and I can't see dear uncle Kev paying out for that. I suspect that PB would have gone with a much cheaper grade, which would have much less control over the compounding of the material and could well mean agglomerations of Butadiene causing warping when the frames are de-moulded.
Polystyrene, which HIPS is an adaption of, is a very well known entity. Companies have been making dimensionally stable parts from for many years, and if you are prepared to spend a little more on tooling for such things as slide-core moulds or in-mould transfer application, can look amazing without any real work other than assembly being done by the purchaser. I have a few "Patlabor" models where the entire thing is moulded in colour - including the transparent and trans red parts on the same frame. These 'Multi-shot' frames are really excellent, but PB would never spring for the costs.
Morgan Vening wrote: * That's a big assumption. HIPS plastics, of which RRT is specifically supposed to be, is a significantly different process than your standard board game plastics, and I'm not sure if a company capable of producing the best price, is capable of doing both, over companies that specialize in one kind of manufacture.
I have to correct this; RRT is supposed to be produced in ABS (God alone knows why). There are a great many manufacturers who deal in HIPS for wargames minis, not the least of whom are Wargames Factory (who many folks use as their manufacturer).
You are correct, it was ABS. HIPS was another company.
Both are styrene with ABS adding acrylonitrile butadiene, and HIPS adding polybutadiene. However, both are significantly harder materials than your standard boardgame mini plastics.
So, with that correction, my point stands. It being unlikely that the best price will come from a company that can do both, rather than from two companies that specialize in one each.
I haven't really been following this. I put $255 in on the KS (I think) and I got a box on some stuff a few years ago. I looked at one model and saw that it was junk and haven't touched the box since then. I haven't even read the book.
What is likely the problem(s)? They got around $1.4M for 5k'ish customers, which is like $280 / person.
0) Was it always a scam and they took the lion's share and produced the min and kept a bunch of $?
1) Did PB under estimate the cost to make the models?
2) Did they use the money for so other product (I know nothing about PB's other stuff)?
3) ...?
I know we don't know for sure, but there must be rumors / logical guesses.
Why doesn't PB just come out and say, sorry. RRT is dead and you all will get nothing else? There is little chance this is a hit for them, since I've never seen it played in a MD or DC gamestore.
Oh, we know for sure. PB is led by a narcistic individual who does only the minimal amount of work to stoke his own ego. They overpromised on models, dragged their feet on completing the up-front work for the rules and models, ignored advice on which manufactuer to use for the model creations, didn't account for shipping costs and delays, overbought stock and failed to support the product.
In short, it's been a cock-up since inception and only rolled downhill from there.
If they admitted they no longer had the funds to complete Wave 2, they would have to issue refunds to the backers, which would bankrupt them, as they're running on fumes as it is.
Conrad Turner wrote: As Winterdyne wrote, God alone knows why they went for one of the most difficult plastics to produce quality minis in to make this lot from. Maybe Kev heard someone mention HIPS [High Impact PolyStyrene] and thought it meant a person scrimshawing each piece out of a pelvic bone. I wouldn't put it past the man. ABS [Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene] is a 3 part polymer THAT IS NOT TRANSPARENT. Polystyrene IS transparent and therefore you can make transparent cockpits for aircraft models out of the same basic material as the rest and they glue on easily.
ABS is a long molecule made up of 3 different monomers. Acrylonitrile is a plastic, Butadiene is a rubber, and Styrene is a plastic. This is why it can't be compounded as a transparent part, there are 3 different refractive indexes all working against each other Although I suspect that the high-end grades are completely compoundable and produce homogenous melts, they will also be the most expensive grades, and I can't see dear uncle Kev paying out for that. I suspect that PB would have gone with a much cheaper grade, which would have much less control over the compounding of the material and could well mean agglomerations of Butadiene causing warping when the frames are de-moulded.
Polystyrene, which HIPS is an adaption of, is a very well known entity. Companies have been making dimensionally stable parts from for many years, and if you are prepared to spend a little more on tooling for such things as slide-core moulds or in-mould transfer application, can look amazing without any real work other than assembly being done by the purchaser. I have a few "Patlabor" models where the entire thing is moulded in colour - including the transparent and trans red parts on the same frame. These 'Multi-shot' frames are really excellent, but PB would never spring for the costs.
Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.
evancich wrote: I haven't really been following this. I put $255 in on the KS (I think) and I got a box on some stuff a few years ago. I looked at one model and saw that it was junk and haven't touched the box since then. I haven't even read the book.
What is likely the problem(s)? They got around $1.4M for 5k'ish customers, which is like $280 / person.
0) Was it always a scam and they took the lion's share and produced the min and kept a bunch of $?
1) Did PB under estimate the cost to make the models?
2) Did they use the money for so other product (I know nothing about PB's other stuff)?
3) ...?
I know we don't know for sure, but there must be rumors / logical guesses.
Why doesn't PB just come out and say, sorry. RRT is dead and you all will get nothing else? There is little chance this is a hit for them, since I've never seen it played in a MD or DC gamestore.
0: no one can say if it was a scam or not, highly unlikely, but then it is Kevin we are talking about here.
1: PB did not bother having their own Mini producer manager who is familiar with the trade, but doubt costs were underestimated if anything PB's greed and money mismanagement was under estimated.
2: no evidence the money was used on things other then RRT, but there is strong insinuation and possibility that it was. PB did over order on wave 1 which used a large amount of funds, also PB happened to finally have a couple of Northern Gun Books that were massively delayed come out right after they got the money from the RRT project.
Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.
Sorry Asterios. Maybe you ought to look again. The transparent parts are PolyCarbonate. As I stated, you cannot get a transparent part from a plastic with three different refractive indexes. I don't disagree that around 99% of lego is ABS, but it's the transparent PC parts that make up the other 1%.
Edit: Not to forget the SBS rubber they use for tyres and the like, of course.
Most of my knowledge about plastics is that most have a "recipe", so there is a mixture of things in it, not just one type of material.
Even with the most minor change it could make the properties of the material completely different.
But back on topic.. You think Kevin knows any of this??
Manufacturer - What kind of plastic material do you want us to use..??
Kevin - What is the cheapest?? (And there is your reason why he used it)
Actually you might familiarize yourself with LEGO which is exclusively (99%)made of ABS plastic, even the clear transparent parts.
Sorry Asterios. Maybe you ought to look again. The transparent parts are PolyCarbonate. As I stated, you cannot get a transparent part from a plastic with three different refractive indexes. I don't disagree that around 99% of lego is ABS, but it's the transparent PC parts that make up the other 1%.
Edit: Not to forget the SBS rubber they use for tyres and the like, of course.
Sorry Conrad, you should go look again, cause when it comes to ABS I know a whole lot more then you do evidently. also actually the tires are made of Rubber, plus a few other parts, but I can say with certainty their transparent parts are made with ABS, as it goes ABS starts off Clear and has color added to it, but then again if you knew anything about ABS or even plastics you would know this, but obviously you do not, as it goes anyone can go look and they will see ABS does come in transparent clear or what have you.
and just to show off ooh looky Transparent ABS filament you can buy:
as it goes ABS is normally thought of as an opaque substance, but it is also done in Transparent colors too as it is done with LEGO Transparent pieces.
but to be honest the ABS used in RRT is such an inferior product doubt it is done in Transparent, while LEGO is done in a higher grade of ABS and pretty much has no limits per se.
Genoside07 wrote: Most of my knowledge about plastics is that most have a "recipe", so there is a mixture of things in it, not just one type of material.
Even with the most minor change it could make the properties of the material completely different.
But back on topic.. You think Kevin knows any of this??
Manufacturer - What kind of plastic material do you want us to use..??
Kevin - What is the cheapest?? (And there is your reason why he used it)
there are much cheaper plastics used in miniature games then ABS, albeit ABS is an odd choice to use.
The reason ABS isn't used particularly in wargames models is twofold;
1) It's harder and denser. This makes it more brittle, although less susceptible to warping - one of the reasons lego uses it for its rigid parts. This does mean that there's much more work to do in getting parts to sit flush when you assemble them, if your tooling isn't bang on. Lego has superb tooling with a very very low margin of error.
2) It's a little too stable - this means that you actually need a fairly nasty solvent to weld it - standard poly cement won't cut it - you need MEK, which isn't so commonly used by modellers these days.
winterdyne wrote: The reason ABS isn't used particularly in wargames models is twofold;
1) It's harder and denser. This makes it more brittle, although less susceptible to warping - one of the reasons lego uses it for its rigid parts. This does mean that there's much more work to do in getting parts to sit flush when you assemble them, if your tooling isn't bang on. Lego has superb tooling with a very very low margin of error.
2) It's a little too stable - this means that you actually need a fairly nasty solvent to weld it - standard poly cement won't cut it - you need MEK, which isn't so commonly used by modellers these days.
they(Testors, Tamiya, etc...) actually have modeling glues designed for work with ABS plastics.
Yeah, I was going to receive some ABS models a long while back and looked into how to bond that stuff since I heard it was a bit different.
I found out the main ingredient to weld/melt the material uses MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone or Butanone) so settled on the Plastruct weld.
https://plastruct.com/product-category/glues-tools-and-accessories/glues-tools-and-accessories-glues-tools-and-accessories/ I would suggest the orange label stuff since it has some gap-filling properties as well.
It worked very well and I would recommend, just ventilate very well and I would suggest gloves: MEK is a solvent so long term exposure is not good for you.
It, to me, has a mildly unpleasant odor, but not the worst by far hobby product I've ever sniffed...I mean smelled. And no need for gloves or anything else with this.
There's no telling how many brain cells I've lost to Testor's putting together model airplanes and such during my youth.
I have that Tamiya glue and I've had no luck with it working on my models for whatever reason. I just can't get it to hold things together with any sort of strength.
On the other hand (literally), superglue has become my friend, to the point I now have Nightcrawler fingers from them being stuck together so often. However, with even just a dab, my plastic models won't ever come apart (my metal minis, that's another story).
I made some trials for the monster mini.
Cut the model in several parts.
Made them hollow and sliced them in two.
Saved lots of raw material and decreased the price on shapeways.
To be honest, I will not purchase one as it is still too expensive for me.
Wow, that "Monster" is very well done.
Wish I could see it in a complete form (some assembly required).
This does seem to demonstrate a viable means for PB to fulfill the rewards for those who ordered this big guy. You really only ever need one (and maybe a spare if you drop him or something).
Oh please, oh please, just get an armored Valkyrie equivalent somewhere out there and I will be happy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
totalfailure wrote: Tamiya Extra Thin Plastic Cement (Green Cap) works on ABS, and is actually recommended in some kits I have seen made of this kind of plastic.
https://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-87038-Extra-Thin-Cement/dp/B000BMYWYC It, to me, has a mildly unpleasant odor, but not the worst by far hobby product I've ever sniffed...I mean smelled. And no need for gloves or anything else with this.
I swear by the Tamiya for normal models but found it not quite aggressive enough for ABS.
Hey Jeffar, I'm calling for a test of faith.
I'd like you to put up a stickied thread in the main Palladium area of your forum (not the RRT section) with quotes from Kevin about RRT is going into production this year.
It's to remain there until it's actually produced.
If Kevin's true to his word there's nothing to lose.
I wasn't actually interested in buying any of them,I was just wondering how much the rest had been produced via independent people- apart from the silly crap I never had interest in. You know, the stuff that basically never actually showed up in the show, like the experimental stuff, the VF-4, and such.
In wave 2 we mainly need, zentraedi infantry, standard MPA, standard FPA, armored VF, super VF, VEF-1, and monster.
Maybe, gnerl, glaug eldare, ghost, lancers for space and aerial combat.
I purchased the main box, every extension and the special metal minis I was able to get (no FPA). 2 friends of mine did the same. We managed to play 2-3 times a year ,but the lack of new mini, or rules or else... is what makes our interest in the game fade away.
We all know there will be no big news in January. February will perhaps grace us with several Soons or In The Next Couple Of Weeks, sprinkled with For Business Reasons.
They already laid the groundwork for missing that target last week.
We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so.
Stated on Jan 13th.
Of course Nate's probably correct regarding the followup, nobody sensible actually thinks they're going to follow through on that.
Though it is funny that on the 13th they actually had a fairly large bit of fluff about the Project, and then a week later we're back to "the name of the project is longer than the info they have to share".
Almaric wrote: You're right about experimental versions.
In wave 2 we mainly need, zentraedi infantry, standard MPA, standard FPA, armored VF, super VF, VEF-1, and monster.
Maybe, gnerl, glaug eldare, ghost, lancers for space and aerial combat.
I purchased the main box, every extension and the special metal minis I was able to get (no FPA). 2 friends of mine did the same. We managed to play 2-3 times a year ,but the lack of new mini, or rules or else... is what makes our interest in the game fade away.
I disagree, the Gnerl is key and a great boon to the Zentraedi, especially with the Long Range Missile upgrade option. 6 Gnerls with LRM's with Blast and a 48 inch range for 100 points......
Automatically Appended Next Post: You should just try RRT using some of my rules
Joyboozer wrote: Hey Jeffar, I'm calling for a test of faith.
I'd like you to put up a stickied thread in the main Palladium area of your forum (not the RRT section) with quotes from Kevin about RRT is going into production this year.
It's to remain there until it's actually produced.
If Kevin's true to his word there's nothing to lose.
If you think this would be a test of my faith, you really haven't gotten what I've been saying.
Joyboozer wrote: Hey Jeffar, I'm calling for a test of faith.
I'd like you to put up a stickied thread in the main Palladium area of your forum (not the RRT section) with quotes from Kevin about RRT is going into production this year.
It's to remain there until it's actually produced.
If Kevin's true to his word there's nothing to lose.
If you think this would be a test of my faith, you really haven't gotten what I've been saying.
Not your faith, the ones that keep reminding everybody Palladium do no wrong.
I wonder what motivates a person to voluntarily work for a company they know is crooked and treats customers so badly. Especially in the capacity of quieting the voices of unhappy customers.
n815e wrote: I wonder what motivates a person to voluntarily work for a company they know is crooked and treats customers so badly. Especially in the capacity of quieting the voices of unhappy customers.
Some people see others being victimized and just can't help but join in with the gang. Even getting a tiny scrap of power is better than none at all.
I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??
Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.
Genoside07 wrote: I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??
I don't think there's a real chance it won't fund, and that it won't fund early (first 48 hours) at that level. The fact of the matter is, while I expect the comment section of the Kickstarter to be toxic, and it won't fund as well as if RRT had been completed properly, there are still a crapload of people out there who simply don't care what has happened to other people, and there'll be a small handful who will consider backing, or increasing their backing, to "spite the haterz". That's the kind of world we live in now.
As for Carmen, beyond the books, it should be noted he was
- one of the leads for RRT. Second Game Designer (behind David Freeman),
- a Background Writer (AHEAD of Kevin, though that could just be alphabetical, though I expect Kevin argued it shouldn't be, or just didn't notice until it was too late),
- was a lead in the development team post campaign (I believe he was part of the FAQ team, and he tried to pass off Mike's Conventional Forces as his own)
I just don't see it failing to fund, at least I don't see it failing to fund due to toxicity. If they ask for too much for too little, or if funding is set at a ridiculous level (200K+), or if it's plainly obvious from published materials that the game sucks (all three being factors in the Robotech Academy disaster, beyond the toxicity), that'd be one thing. But I think the general fanbase is enough, and the "cloak" of Carmen not being a PB employee will allow it to fund.
Genoside07 wrote: Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.
Unlikely that they'll try and partially do it. It's simply just too expensive to try and do it in that manner. And it would just be PB throwing more money away, as it's clear retail sales aren't exactly booming. They won't get credit for a partial completion (not after years of promising more), and it'd just be a depletion of funding reserves, especially if they shipped to backers. Better to milk that money on "development" before claiming bankruptcy, rather than hurry that along.
Guys, rule 1, Jeffar deserves the same respect as everyone else here.
What I'm asking for is for it to be made more obvious to the general palladium community what is happening with RRT. This
is not a toxic group victimising Palladium, it's Palladium failing to deliver over and over.
Don't you mean that it is a toxic company poisoning the pool of potential fans? They aren't just failing to deliver, they actually have actively blamed those who tried to help, and delete any mention of this project being late.
I think my observation or takeaway from this is we have a company public representative that will not, shall not address the issue discussed.
He cannot possibly "stay on topic" other than to say anything we say is "conjecture" since no facts are offered.
So his function here is rather suspect.
It is similar to the "legal tsunami" where a person claims knowledge but cannot say... it borders on trolling.
It is more likely as hinted at: to feel "powerful" around people who are "helpless" in getting a company to do what they are morally and legally obligated to do.
Forgive me if behavior like that tends to remove them from my Christmas card list.
n815e wrote: I wonder what motivates a person to voluntarily work for a company they know is crooked and treats customers so badly. Especially in the capacity of quieting the voices of unhappy customers.
Genoside07 wrote: I also think it is people's idea that they are working as part of the gaming industry that is a dream for most of us...
Some people will look past all the bad, just to think they are part of the legend that once was..
Sad thing is what will happen to the guy making the Rifts Table Top game.. He done a few books with Palladium and
now managing a game that has a good chance of falling flat on its face..
I wonder what the first goal will be?? $40,000?? and don't get it in the first few weeks will they pull the plug??
I don't think there's a real chance it won't fund, and that it won't fund early (first 48 hours) at that level. The fact of the matter is, while I expect the comment section of the Kickstarter to be toxic, and it won't fund as well as if RRT had been completed properly, there are still a crapload of people out there who simply don't care what has happened to other people, and there'll be a small handful who will consider backing, or increasing their backing, to "spite the haterz". That's the kind of world we live in now.
As for Carmen, beyond the books, it should be noted he was
- one of the leads for RRT. Second Game Designer (behind David Freeman),
- a Background Writer (AHEAD of Kevin, though that could just be alphabetical, though I expect Kevin argued it shouldn't be, or just didn't notice until it was too late),
- was a lead in the development team post campaign (I believe he was part of the FAQ team, and he tried to pass off Mike's Conventional Forces as his own)
I just don't see it failing to fund, at least I don't see it failing to fund due to toxicity. If they ask for too much for too little, or if funding is set at a ridiculous level (200K+), or if it's plainly obvious from published materials that the game sucks (all three being factors in the Robotech Academy disaster, beyond the toxicity), that'd be one thing. But I think the general fanbase is enough, and the "cloak" of Carmen not being a PB employee will allow it to fund.
Genoside07 wrote: Back on Topic..
Again.. I don't see Wave Two ever coming out.. maybe one random sprue in the next five years, but not get everything
that was promised.. just hate it because I had a bad feeling when I back this originally and was on the fence of just waiting
till it was released to retail to buy it.
Unlikely that they'll try and partially do it. It's simply just too expensive to try and do it in that manner. And it would just be PB throwing more money away, as it's clear retail sales aren't exactly booming. They won't get credit for a partial completion (not after years of promising more), and it'd just be a depletion of funding reserves, especially if they shipped to backers. Better to milk that money on "development" before claiming bankruptcy, rather than hurry that along.
well you would be surprised on whether it funds or not, it all depends on certain factors, what is the amount to fund? remember PB had an extremely small amount on the RRT project, if they have said same amount on the Rifts board game and only get that amount, guess what nobody will get anything (except maybe some PDF gak), to make the game fundable it would require a minimum of $300K (shipping being a large portion of that) and that is provided the free trade agreement is not cut off or taxs are not levied on product coming in from China, then we could be looking upwards of $600-700K or more.
and thats if it funds, from what I've seen of PB most of their followers willing to give them money with no expected release date already put in on the RRT project, so yeah they might be foolish enough to back the Rifts Board Game cause as someone once said a fool and his money are soon parted. but will they get enough to fund the campaign? who knows, will they get enough to actually put out the game? highly doubtful. the one major loser in this project will be Carmen, his name will be utterly soiled and destroyed, his name will be ground into mud and so on and so on. but hey he is willing to destroy his life for the sake of bathing in Kevin's Glory go for it.
but then again right now its doubtful if the project will even get going at all. (the silence lately about it has been deafening)
OK. I have some questions. What happen if HG cans PB on Robotech , they can't sell Robotech rpg games anymore? RTTKS is a failure of a KS for PB they don't know it yet? I wonder if all backer can't wait for RBG KS to start to how bad it gets? That it for now. P.S. I' am going write a letter to HG about this RTTKS and IP of Robotech in the hands of PB. I know it will not do anything about it but what hell.
DEZOAT wrote: OK. I have some questions. What happen if HG cans PB on Robotech , they can't sell Robotech rpg games anymore? RTTKS is a failure of a KS for PB they don't know it yet? I wonder if all backer can't wait for RBG KS to start to how bad it gets? That it for now. P.S. I' am going write a letter to HG about this RTTKS and IP of Robotech in the hands of PB. I know it will not do anything about it but what hell.
HG will continue to let PB use the IP since no one else has any interest in it.
HG will not drop Palladium, afterall who else wants a miniatures/rpg license for a 30 plus year old obscure cartoon series?
The Rifts BG will likely fund on a very low overall total, as I am expecting it to be a Boardgame/miniatures hybrid and as a result the miniature count (likely to be the most expensive part) wil be low. The figures I would suggest will be obne piece boardgame quality - afterall you are really expecting the die hard Rifts rpg platers to be the majority of your backers.
Going forward the KS will be backed by the majority of its target customer base (as was the case for RTT) and so the likliehood of a runaway commercial success is very unlikely - can you see Carmen coming up with a new exctiting genre busting format?.
Whatever happens the only thing you can be certain of is that kevin will devote months to promoting and pushing it, will conveniently forgwtting about this project, which he knoows he cannot complete and is fully aware that it has the potential to bankrupt his company if he tried
Alpharius wrote: Won't bankruptcy, of one form or other, 'protect' Kevin/Palladium from having to fulfill this campaign?
it would, but it would also cost him his business and his Rift's IP which whatever debtor he owes the most to will obtain and auction off or sell to the highest bidder, essentially Bankruptcy will be the end of Kevin's Empire.
Alpharius wrote: Won't bankruptcy, of one form or other, 'protect' Kevin/Palladium from having to fulfill this campaign?
Not necessary, really. Kickstarter's fraud-friendly TOS will do that.
Really, it funds, Kevin spews crap for long enough to avoid chargebacks (interestingly, according to chase, that's actually 500 days but I doubt he'd know that), and then keeps all the money.
From what we've seen with Robotech, there is literally nothing to prevent such an act. Except for Kevin's character. So, I'm sure everything will be fine!
Stormonu wrote: Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:
--Never buy from PB
--Never back another Kickstarter
--Never buy anything from HG
The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.
Stormonu wrote: Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:
--Never buy from PB
--Never back another Kickstarter
--Never buy anything from HG
The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.
I disagree, the Gnerl is key and a great boon to the Zentraedi, especially with the Long Range Missile upgrade option. 6 Gnerls with LRM's with Blast and a 48 inch range for 100 points......
Automatically Appended Next Post: You should just try RRT using some of my rules
Yes, I missed the upgade option. "6 Gnerls with LRM's with Blast and a 48 inch range for 100 points" !!! impressive and deadly.
Stormonu wrote: Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:
--Never buy from PB
--Never back another Kickstarter
--Never buy anything from HG
The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.
One more year (and a handful of months), and I'll be a member of that club.
Stormonu wrote: Well, all I can say is this fiasco has taught me three things:
--Never buy from PB --Never back another Kickstarter
--Never buy anything from HG
The most important rule is never trust an old man with a moustache, all of them are evil and will do bad things at every opportunity. I believe scientists determined the age of 48 to be the cut off.
One more year (and a handful of months), and I'll be a member of that club.
A few months for me.
I kinda figure you have to be in the over 40 club to have an interest in Robotech when it was introduced.
No mustache though, wife hates them... not quite sure why.
I think I even have a song for this, excuse the strong French influence, I am Canadian after all...
Spoiler:
Looks like they would need them to keep warm in the warehouse at PB since heaters are broken.
Love that note of theirs on the 19th:
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
Nothing new to report this week." ..."We appreciate ALL of you, and love that you run games for us at Gen Con. Thank you." Lazy sons of guns.
Am I justified in being a little upset they cannot be bothered to even try running their own product games?
What can they flog at GenCon? Really?
You would think it would give even small incentive to set some due-date for new stuff.
They give little reason to go see their booth as it is.
I would say it is a serviceable game.
The dodge and roll with impact rules combined with command point expenditures get a little weird that may need some house rules.
There is a FAQ for the blast rules since it caused some confusion.
I would add by a factor of 10 to building points so they do not get completely destroyed in the first volley of blast fire.
It is a reasonably fast game and I think plays well with Drop Zone Commander terrain.
I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash.
When put together, the models look reasonably good, UEDF are a bit high in parts count, the Zent. pods are a bit more reasonable which is good for a horde army.
I didn't even open the book.
Palladium Books would cry, it is probably one of their better production values books to-date.
I would say points costs only being on the data cards and not the book was bad but at least all the main stats for all the units are there.
What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?
I would hesitate to say it is not really either of them but maybe a bit like 40k with the various sight line and cover rules.
An interesting mechanic is the use of command points for performing "special" actions and alternating activation with some "steal the initiative" elements.
This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.
The models I did not find frustrating, only time consuming.
I strongly suggest going to the Drive-Thru RPG and get the newer instructions that show what parts pair with each other on the model sprues since they were not numbered.
The game I think is worthy of time, even if someone is not a Robotech fan.
The frustration is some of the cooler models were reserved for Wave 2 which did not work out.
I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?
Palladium Books is the IP licensee from Harmony Gold for the Robotech license.
There is no legal means of getting secondary market stuff except through them.
Though I hear rumor they are in some discussions with those who have made 3D printing models of their IP (without permission), as possible efforts to help with wave 2
I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.
What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?
This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.
I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?
The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.
It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.
I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.
What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?
This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.
I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?
The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.
It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.
I got my wave 1 (years ago), looked at a model and decided it was trash. I didn't even open the book.
What's the game like to play? Is it more like battletech or more like 40k?
This might motivate me enough to go pull the box off the shelf and read it / assemble the models.
I assume there is no secondary market for this stuff?
The rules are kind of a mish mash of several types of games that I have played over the years.
It has elements of 40K, Vor the Maelstorm, and Warmahordes. Then it has some elements that are not familiar to me from any other game, but not necessarily unique. There are a couple "what the hell" rules like building damage capacity, HtH rules, and the blast rules. Overall, as a first edition, the game was actually fairly decent. It's current status of no support, and being 3 years behind, and the attitude given by the companies staff/owner were the death blow for the game. It could have become a great game, a few tweaks, and continuous support......oh well, what could have been.
We already have rules for Bioroids, Invid, Hovertanks and the full spread. Blast has always been an issue with the way PB wants to do it.
I know, been there, checked it out. I was answering evancich's question with my opinion. I'm not really interested in your rules, which are decent, but I don't have a 3d printer, and don't want to try to support the slightly less than legal model sales for the models I do want. My new want is for https://www.facebook.com/groups/780369415405754/?hc_location=ufi to actually take off, but it's been a month since his last post, and at this point I think the plans fell through, but a Gundam miniatures game would be AWESOME!!! I think he was using the 1/400 scale figures, which seem to be out of print, but at this time still relatively easy to get. If his plans did fall through, then I may attempt to use your rules as a basis for a Gundam game for my personal benefit.
Mike: Nice work with the models.
As to your rules, one day people will understand PB will not support theirs.
I think it is an excellent substitute that makes many improvements that is worth considering if some find the PB rules cumbersome.
I am not sold on the Battletech application however, Alphastrike addresses that quite well but it does remove some detail in exchange for larger battles.
What is easily agreed is that Robotech as a genre or pop culture item is sufficiently regarded that a rather impressive number of people are trying to support the needs of fans.
If only an easier means of licensing could be awarded to improve the legality of those efforts.
Harmony Gold has a death grip on their Robotech license so we are prevented from further products in North America to do with "Macross".
Palladium has a death grip on the "gaming" element of Robotech which prevents so many options and forces us into a release "schedule" that appears to span decades.
It seems like such a lesson in licensing that has gone wrong.
The "Invid" scouts are "Cravid" by Griffin Miniatures. You can find pictures of them on the internet. They are shut down. Probably got a CandD a while back.
That is truly sad, when someone not involved with the kick starter can get farther in the process than people that the ones given the money to do the work.
With Trump leaving the Trans Asian trade deal... May not be good for Palladium games this year dealing with Chinese manufactures.
And after Kevin spending all that time learning the Chinese language so not to hire a translator..(Joke - but wouldn't surprise me if he did)
With Trump leaving the Trans Asian trade deal... May not be good for Palladium games this year dealing with Chinese manufactures.
Who are you trying to kid? dealing with China would mean that they actually work on RRT rather than write empty updates about "how hard they are working". China could cease to exist and it wouldn't have any impact the state of RRT as the problems are all internal at PB.
Merijeek wrote: Well, sure, but if there's anything Kevin truly loves it's another chance to shout "It's not my fault!".
不是我的错！
Bùshì wǒ de cuò!
"Not my fault!" There you go.
But I am unsure who in China he would care to avoid blame from.
Funny, I had a thought of how a conversation would go with a China supplier (I have had a few myself).
Spoiler:
I could see "conversation" from Chinese rep.:
CR: "We got model file. It very complex. We change some angles so we get 7 part model. See mold file, it easy."
PB: "No, the model must be "exact" to our IP images, it was approved by Harmony Gold after four months looking at it."
CR: "We put model back. Keep model "exact"?! We can do, 15+ parts if slide molds, 20+ parts if normal mold. See quotes."
PB: "Is the quote in Renminbi? The number seems rather large, especially this "sliding mold" thing."
CR: "No, it USD. Sliding mold best for good detail parts. We have more choices. How fast you want production? Remove much cooling, make slower, save money."
PB: "Yes, save all the money you can."
CR: "We make "special" mold for home production. Very cheap. Local careful villager make many parts. Take year to make amount you ask. For lower price, we keep mold (own?) when done. We sell parts to you for good price after."
PB: "Everything is ours! You cannot keep anything."
CR: "Then price higher. We do "mold prep" before send. Take many months after production."
PB: "Many months? Why so long?"
CR: "We flush mold repeatedly with special plastic. Charge disposal fee or we can find way to sell off the... waste."
PB: "Fine, we do not care what you do"
PB: "Great NEWS! We have a lead working on Wave 2!"
With Trump leaving the Trans Asian trade deal... May not be good for Palladium games this year dealing with Chinese manufactures.
And after Kevin spending all that time learning the Chinese language so not to hire a translator..(Joke - but wouldn't surprise me if he did)
BTW, just to be on the same level, the TPP never included China.
It IS a kind of funny thing to blame customers for the lack of success or sales of a product.
They ARE choosing not to buy it, so they directly impact "success".
Kevin seems to refuse to see that he needed to do something at his end to ensure the customers would want what he is selling.
Through my own experiences there are people who view that others should change, not them: those who are Narcissistic (unwilling to change) or Autistic (unable to see the need for change, easier to recognize and change environment).
He really likes to make things challenging for us, since he already "sold" us a bunch of Robotech miniatures we paid for, he cannot quite find a way to sell them to us again.
I am sure a flat $100 shipping fee for Wave2 may be a "good start" in his mind IF there is any shred of hope remaining of them getting done.
Publications at a trickle, RRT income was a few years back all that is left for income is possibly royalties from the Savage Worlds conversion.
I really wonder how they manage to operate on fumes like that, it is rather impressive in a twisted way.
<edit> Forgot he is sitting on a ton of wave1 stock he needs to figure out how to convert into cash.
Hence, the frustration of why oh why are they not flying off the shelves?
Simple math: Show progress in in the future of RRT = customers willing to invest in a game that has a future.
Funny how Kevin's problems would be solved by fixing ours: make wave 2 any way you can.
Unfortunately, with RRT he looks at it as spent (kickstarter!) money is lost money.
I don't think that's a particularity good definition of 'Autistic', as generally speaking, the 'environment' is something that autistic individuals perceive differently than the majority of the population and/or have a hard time processing.
Now, I do think 'Narcissistic' does fit here though...
Alpharius wrote: I don't think that's a particularity good definition of 'Autistic', as generally speaking, the 'environment' is something that autistic individuals perceive differently than the majority of the population and/or have a hard time processing.
Now, I do think 'Narcissistic' does fit here though...
It is a bit more complex than that yes, but boils down to that behavior.
My eldest son has "High functioning autistic spectrum disorder" with a dose of AD/HD for added fun (whew!), if it gets loud, he demands strongly and forcefully for it to stop... every time.
He keeps forgetting I have provided ear-plugs for that very use (they are also very sensitive to all sensory stimulus).
He "wants to do what he wants to do" and is shocked that in trying to meet his needs it bothers others.
"I need this thing!" even though you are using it at the time or it is that person's property is irrelevant: his needs are painful and are more than yours so he has a right to that item NOW.
Eventually with some work it can be explained why for that instance why it was not appropriate behavior and you coach him on what IS.
Empathy is really hard BUT they like order/rules so are driven very strongly to try to "do the right thing", they can feel remorse unlike a Narcissist.
I worked for a couple narcissists for short times.
If you explain how observing certain forms of politeness they can get what they want with minimal fuss they tend to come around for a time.
Eventually they need to "be the boss" and lord over / punish people (they eventually LIKE a fuss) and then it is all over but the crying.
They are 100% looking for attention at all times so is a whole different way of looking at an environment, more like a predator.
So it is pretty predictable where if things die down and Kevin is not seeing any attention, he will fabricate something... "spring into action" as he or his staff have described it.
Merijeek wrote: So, much like plastic types, there's a spectrum that goes allllll the way from one end to the other!
Which mold release, injection pressures, clamping pressure, die temperature, cooling time and basically the cycle time has a big impact on that spectrum of plastic types.
Just like with grumpy backers, it totally depends on how the subject is treated to get the results you want.
Using the wrong method on the wrong material (or person) can lead to failure of what was intended.
Like with anything that can be complex, engaging an expert in that field can help simplify things and may offer other ideas or options that were not considered.
IBI councilor, project managers, injection mold process engineers are all experts in their fields that can be used to make the most of a difficult situation.
Too bad that Kevin will need to identify that he is NOT an expert in all things.
From my own experience at Anime North: is it REALLY worth it to slap down some $60 just to have an argument with Kevin and get kicked out?
No.
You would not even have the satisfaction of an audience: it is a ghost-town around their booth.
You will also have the pleasure of a 50:50 chance he will either lose-it on you or will excuse himself because "he has something better to do" if you get huffy with him.
Lastly, if you REALLY want to stick it to them: do not send email, do not go near their booth, do not acknowledge their existence.
That (other than money) is about the only thing that would hurt them.
Genoside07 wrote: What Conventions will Palladium games be at this year??
Adepticon is coming up in March.. and Gen Con in August..
The last Weekly Propaganda says nothing about Adepticon (fast approaching), so it seems like a safe bet they're not bothering with that one this time.
They are going to Gencon, and also.. CoastCon, whatever that is.
CoastCon 40 in Biloxi, Mississippi – March 2017
I (Kevin Siembieda) will be attending CoastCon, along with Sean Patrick Fannon, again, the core writer and architect of Rifts® Savage Worlds®, in Mississippi on March 3-5, 2017. CoastCon and Gen Con are the only two conventions I will be personally attending in 2017; that’s how busy I expect to be banging out new gaming product. Some things that will shock and amaze, too. I hope to see and chat with a lot of Palladium and Pinnacle fans. Bring books for Sean and me to sign.
Wikipedia indicates they have around 1,600 attendees!
Putting it firmly in the 'small con' category that they seem to enjoy attending now and then (since I started paying attention nearly 4 fething years ago). I'm guessing being even a middle sized fish (and yes that's being overly generous) in a very small pond is something that appeals to him/them.
I purchased the IP rights from Palladium Books and the board game will be published by my little company Rogue Heroes.
Kevin has shown off a few pieces of the card art in the Weekly Updates, but I thought it was time to show off one of the 3-D miniature sculpts for the game for you all to see.
I (Kevin Siembieda) will be attending CoastCon, along with Sean Patrick Fannon, again, the core writer and architect of Rifts® Savage Worlds®, in Mississippi on March 3-5, 2017. CoastCon and Gen Con are the only two conventions I will be personally attending in 2017; that’s how busy I expect to be banging out new gaming product. Some things that will shock and amaze, too.
Just a way to separate Rogue Heroes from Palladium.. but will it save the project? everyone knows Kevin has made his game company stink like a ocean junk pile at low tide..
I am sure he put money down for the rights to get "rifts miniature game" so no one else can do it.. Then I would imagine some type of kick back to Kevin after the kickstarter.....
You will still have a few hundred people that are die hard Rifts fans out there and a few that will get the game for the miniatures and some for the Rifts iconery.. But will it be enough to produce the game??..That will be the real game of wait and see ...
I purchased the IP rights from Palladium Books and the board game will be published by my little company Rogue Heroes.
Kevin has shown off a few pieces of the card art in the Weekly Updates, but I thought it was time to show off one of the 3-D miniature sculpts for the game for you all to see.
He what now? Purchased the IP rights?
Presumably for one dollar, plus Kevin Simbieda getting 98% of the profits. In the event of failure, Carmen will get 98% of the blame. The other 2% will be evenly divided between The Chinese, The Haterz, and that guy who stole Kevin's lucky pencil at the last open house.
It will really stim from price and goals.Bad Karma could be a factor, but I am sure
there well be a large note somewhere saying we are not Palladium games.
The Savage Rifts had a little over 4,238 in backers with $438k profits made and
Robotech Tactics had 5342 backers with $1,442k so about a million more
in money with only about a thousand people difference.
I think a lot of people were very conscious with their backing of Savage Rifts..
more than likely just a place holder for some and maybe gave more after.
But I feel that Rifts Miniature game Kickstarter will do a few hundred thousand dollars in
pledges but will not get any crazy numbers, plus will that be enough to cover the project.
Part of that difference will be in what people can even buy.
The highest tier for Savage Rifts was still below the average contribution for RRT, and the vast majority contributed vastly below that (by tiers at least, though looking over the add on list, I'm skeptical of them being hot sellers in the pledge manager).
Similarly, a board game KS can blow up, but that usually requires a massive amount of content. Minis, limited edition stuff, expansions, etc. Add ons and nostalgia/popularity drove a *lot* of add on sales in RRT.
The average RRT backer contributed ~$270-300 (I believe Kicktraq says $270, and Wayne later claimed they got around 150k more from the pledge manager). The average SR backer contributed ~$100. I can't see a board game like Carmen/PB has been teasing out drawing in a lot more than that on average, which means they'd need like three or four times the backers of SR to get anywhere near RRT level money.
If nothing else, I can't see even PB apologists being willing to tie up much more than $100 apiece for a year or two or five or forever.
Their reputation won't prevent the campaign from funding (especially if they set an artificially low target, as we expect, and they clearly did with RRT), but it will make getting much more than mid 6 figures very difficult.
At least, based on my amateur analysis of the two campaigns we can compare and contrast.
Well looking at something like the latest KS from CMON - SMOG - tey are looking at around $100k for a hybrid boardgame with at least 63 minis. I would suggest the start point here would be much lower, possibly as low as around $50 for the base game, including say a dozen or so unique minis. Postage as is now custom will be added afterwards.
I would suggest a low funding goal or possibly $20-30 thousand.
I still would not be surprised to see over a thousand backers , maybe more SW rifts amassed over four thousand, but it will not be genre breaking and be an overnight sensation. I suspect it will be more of a source for Rifts rpg players to get some mins if nothing else.
Meanwhile this non Palladium game gets its own sub forum on the Palladium Books site - yes we cannot see any connection between companies here, move along.
ok people keep glossing over some things, but lets bring in some perspective, you have one game which has a pledge amount of $80 shipped in the US and you get 34 minis, then you have a game where you are paying a minimum of $50 plus shipping and you only get like 8-12 minis, which one you think people will go for? what the boardgame minimum will end up costing (just in the US) shipped is around $65 to $80, so unless that boardgame is something new and exciting (which it is not), it will be lucky to fund as a project unless it has a low starting goal, but then it is tantamount to never getting delivered since the startup cost will most likely be more then what the fund goal is, but then if they put the actual fund goal it would never get funded either. the boardgame is already dead before we even put in our two cents.
Genoside07 wrote: But I feel that Rifts Miniature game Kickstarter will do a few hundred thousand dollars in
pledges but will not get any crazy numbers, plus will that be enough to cover the project.
I would be surprised if they even cracked $100K or even got close to it, the game is lacking all the factors that will draw in crowds, the one major factor is the premise Rifts is built on is a strictly RPG playable premise, not a boardgame playable premise.
Alpharius wrote: Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?
I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?
What's the ceiling?
$250K?
$300K?
$500K?
i don't care how many Rifts fans are out there, with miniature games you want to get one of everything and mutiples of some, with a boardgame, you get one and you got all you can use, there is no reason to get more then one, which is why I say it will be lucky to get even close to $100K.
The same can be said about RPGs, and that didn't stop Savage Rifts from attracting thousands of backers and over 400k.
Of course, a bunch of those were digital only, which doesn't apply here.
It's not a perfect 1:1, Apples To Apples comparison, but the general gist I'm taking away is that while Rifts/Palladium aren't Big Dogs on the scene, their global fanbase remains big enough to still kick them 6 figures pretty easily. Yeah, sure, a bunch of those backers were probably brought onboard by Savage Worlds with a little nostalgia in there too, but despite the toxicity of RRT, their lower bounds are still higher than I would'vet anticipated.
Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.
Alpharius wrote: A lot of your money related...estimates have been, shall we say...off?
Still, if they can't crack $100K - what does that mean for Palladium as a whole?
Are we still laboring under the assumption that they need a large influx of cash in order to get Wave 2 out the door/keep the lights on?
If The RIFTS KS crashes and burns (i.e., doesn't fund, or doesn't over fund by...a lot), are they done?
well RRT wave to is just a myth never to see the light of day, the boardgame can make over a million and still wave 2 of RRT will never happen. also my money related estimates are spot on, been there, done that.
Forar wrote: The same can be said about RPGs, and that didn't stop Savage Rifts from attracting thousands of backers and over 400k.
Of course, a bunch of those were digital only, which doesn't apply here.
It's not a perfect 1:1, Apples To Apples comparison, but the general gist I'm taking away is that while Rifts/Palladium aren't Big Dogs on the scene, their global fanbase remains big enough to still kick them 6 figures pretty easily. Yeah, sure, a bunch of those backers were probably brought onboard by Savage Worlds with a little nostalgia in there too, but despite the toxicity of RRT, their lower bounds are still higher than I would'vet anticipated.
Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.
problem with that analogy is Savage Worlds is a known property, Carmen's little company is not, and even though PB has their supporters, they still might be a bit gun shy after Northern Gun and RRT. I see the game coming in at maybe $60K-$80K if it does. (until all those fake pledges and dollar pledges pull out.)
also lest we forget that other game with PB's help and that failed to fund and was cancelled.
Yeah, I just can't see why a game with the exciting premise of "defend your Victory Number" just didn't catch on.
And a creator who spouted stuff (with such awesome grammar) as this:
As far as Robotech goes. We are looking at a February release. I know there will be many people moaning and groaning saying Palladium History this and delays that..The game is being created as fast as it should be.. You want it faster than your going to get CRAP!. the initial number of molds that were originally estimated could not handle the detail that was required to make the beautiful sculpts that everyone has seen.. So double the number of molds.. (Goodbye pile of money that is needed for that change and hello delay). This is what it takes to make a superior product. NO shortcuts! There is no substitute for a quality product. Should that cause a delay in shipping? YES! Give me that delay, I welcome it. People just do not understand the process that this project has been going through. just the coordination and approvals of the sculpts and the rules and the resource management that has been utilized for this project is staggering.. Initial release estimates for RRPGT was for a perfect world and no delays.. fine great. Everyone that is complaining needs to take a rational look as to the world and how things work in the real world and not in a person's imagination.. I want quality, not crap. So Kevin S., John C., and Tommy Y., please make sure that you take the time you need to make this a great game and quality miniatures. I know many of the guys at Palladium and Ninja now and these people are great guys and girls. They are committed to give the fans of Robotech the quality game that they have been waiting for for almost 30 years now. I can wait, because I've been trying to get this done for longer than anyone out there.
Plus, you know, his last blog post was flogging his failed Kickstarter.
Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.
Hmmm...
You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.
Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?
The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!
Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.
Hmmm...
You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.
Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?
The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!
in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.
Some vague promises about Wave Two (no movement of course, just words) and SR apparently moving along pretty well could be used both by Carmen and Backers alike to fend off critique.
Hmmm...
You know, all kidding aside, you're probably on to something there.
Is the RIFTS Boardgame launching soon?
The reason Palladium is seemingly more positive now about Wave 2 might be just what you think it is about!
Last week's newsletter says that it's supposed to go live in March or April, so yeah, pretty soon (though it has been shuffling backwards a bit, I believe they were pretty firm on March for a while there)
Ooooh! Maybe they should aim for April 18th for the trolling factor. (the day RRT launched, 4 years ago)
Asterios wrote: in other words PB is lying to help their Rift's Boardgame.
Kevin doesn't lie... he just continuously changes the truth (his truth)
The phrase you are looking for is "alternative facts"
Anyone even with a basic knowledge of US news and politics should have no reason to be upset or surprised with the idea that the news provides "Alternative Facts" But lets stay away from politics. No sense stirring up the portapotty.
I wouldn't even say that. He's well into the territory of the "Fun Fact". The fact that has the same word in it as the "Fun" sized Mars bar, and where it means the same thing.
Alpharius wrote: Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?
I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?
What's the ceiling?
$250K?
$300K?
$500K?
I think it will be roughly the same as Savage Rifts as mostly the same people will contribute to it, and the same people who stayed away because of association with Palladium will continue to stay away. Maybe a few hundred people fewer, because Rifts fans are notoriously uninterested in anything but RPG books with copious reprinted material. (Kevin has told them for decades that anything other than RPGs are inferior forms of entertainment.)
I don't care how much future expansion they promise, anyone who knows anything about Uncle Kev's history with sublicensors knows the game has no future and Uncle Kev will be swooping in soon enough to add the stock to his warehouse hoard. Savage Rifts may avoid that, but the Rifts boardgame has all the hallmarks of the Myrmidion Press and Rifts card game events.
So, I'm going to guess $400K. Let's see how wrong I end up being.
It is odd, Thomas Roache has been rather quiet lately.
Funny, I still find on occasion I dig into his old blog: http://robotechbattles.blogspot.ca/ I shouldn't say much because I do not think I know his user name here (I do not need to know unless he wants me to know...).
Yes, grammar can sometimes be difficult for many of us, I give him more of a free pass since his "baby" was badly abused by the PB foster parent similar in tone to "A Series of Unfortunate Events" which is rather appropriate (Kevin = Count Olaf?) so he had got rather "excited" a few times.
But that is the deep dark past, time to think about the future!
Oh yeah, I think we need to wait for the next PB "update".
I would work on my RRT models now but I have a Bolt Action tournament tomorrow...
Alpharius wrote: Presumably there are a lot of RIFTS fans out there, still?
I think this one will not have too much trouble cracking $100K, but how much more it gets than that is the real question?
What's the ceiling?
$250K?
$300K?
$500K?
I think it will be roughly the same as Savage Rifts as mostly the same people will contribute to it, and the same people who stayed away because of association with Palladium will continue to stay away. Maybe a few hundred people fewer, because Rifts fans are notoriously uninterested in anything but RPG books with copious reprinted material. (Kevin has told them for decades that anything other than RPGs are inferior forms of entertainment.)
I don't care how much future expansion they promise, anyone who knows anything about Uncle Kev's history with sublicensors knows the game has no future and Uncle Kev will be swooping in soon enough to add the stock to his warehouse hoard. Savage Rifts may avoid that, but the Rifts boardgame has all the hallmarks of the Myrmidion Press and Rifts card game events.
So, I'm going to guess $400K. Let's see how wrong I end up being.
Ooooh! Maybe they should aim for April 18th for the trolling factor. (the day RRT launched, 4 years ago)
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happened. I guarantee you that it's been considered.
problem is the Savage worlds Rifts game had a mix of Rifts players and Savage Worlds players, the Rifts Board Game will be all Rifts players so i'm thinking a whole lot less. and with the taint associated with PB it might not even fund.
$20 to the charity of each other's choice says it funds.
You game?
You keep claiming you don't think it'll fund, so how certain are you?
Because between their baseline level of fanatics, and troll pledges. I don't think there's any chance it doesn't fund unless they set the starting point at like half a million or more.
$20 to the charity of each other's choice says it funds.
You game?
You keep claiming you don't think it'll fund, so how certain are you?
Because between their baseline level of fanatics, and troll pledges. I don't think there's any chance it doesn't fund unless they set the starting point at like half a million or more.
well can't make a guess like that without knowing their fund amount, that is why I didn't say it would or would not fund with any certainity.
Forar wrote: Okay, cool, we'll revisit this idea in March/April/Whenever it launches.
yeah they can have a funding amount of anywhere from $10K to $500K or more as far as we know, but the one thing we can probably agree on is even if it funds it will not deliver.
The Rifts Boargame got a dozen lines about how it's totally not a PB project, and how it's been in development for "two years" (and yes, Kevin italicized it). Because we know how important getting the groundwork on development was, for getting RRT done properly...
For the second week running...
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ – 2017 release
Nothing new to report this week.
Given this was the last Update within the timeframe given on December 9th "It is starting to look like our manufacturing plan to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two game pieces with much lower part counts is not going to pan out. We should know by the end of January, 2017.", even though they changed it to mid February on Jan 13th "We should be able to present you manufacturing details and a timetable in another month or so.", it looks like it's going to be another continual sliding of deadlines that PB is famous for.
Speaking of...
Rifts Secrets of the Atlanteans - March 2017
Rifts Sovietski - June 2017
PBFantasy Garden of the Gods - April 2017
Rifts HoH Arsenal - March 2017
Rifts Secrets of the Coalition States - April 2017
Because nothing say Palladium like stating they're expecting 5 books to be done in 5 months. Note, that at least two were mentioned in last year's "First 6 months of 2016" post.
And while I was looking for that, I found this little tidbit from last year's end of January PBWU.
"In the Spring we expect to be able to share with you much more details, information, progress reports and offer up new material on a regular basis. We’ll have some new data and material sooner, but I don’t think things will really begin to heat up before Spring or Summer. We want Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two and fulfillment of our Kickstarter obligations more than anyone. It’s coming."
Ever feel like the referee in WWE?
Lots of drama and carrying on and every once and a while remind people that there are rules...
I always wanted the Ref to say "Ok you princesses, how about you get to it?"
I would say that if they REALLY want to get a Rifts board game funded: they will.
I suspect anything over $1000 they are willing to pocket... er, "put to good use".
)
