popisdead wrote: Unless I'm missing something the Teleporting Gorkanaut can be 2+ BS
5+ Stock.
4+ Kustom Job +1 BS 3+ Kustom Job fancier gun
2+ Freebooterz was triggered. Do a Dread Waaagh! shoot again. (i mention this as I play Freebooterz a fair bit these days). It's 4 CP (or more, or 3 and the Mekboy shop)?
Emicrania wrote: Jid, I know you don´t play ITC, but do you ever play tournament?
I ask not to be arrogant or superior, I´m just curious to know how would you manage objective grabbing and board control with those lists.
Is so long since i played an army with less than 100 pieces in competitive scene that I really have problem to visualize it
I usually play CA2019 missions (mostly EW) against players from our dadhammer group with vastly varying competitiveness. Some of them are playing in tournaments, and I tend to do quite well against those. While I doubt that it's comparable to actually playing at top tables at a GT, it's also not all casual. Against the casual players, I actually need to tone down this list, as it totally steamrolls them.
Currently, the entire buggy list is hinging on warbikers pulling off T1 charges and keeping my opponents in their deployment zones. Especially marine take them two turns to grind through them, in the meantime I take out anti-tank and mobility. If someone has an easy way to dispatch of them in combat, like the necron player with his wraiths, it's a lot more difficult.
Buggies, characters and the naut are what's holding midfield and shooting from a safe distance, and I feed them to the enemy one after another by charging them into I targets I don't want to shoot.
Gretchin run up the board and grab objectives, hiding out of sight when possible. I also quite often suicide a unit or two them to gain additional VP if necessary, for example by placing them right next to a unit that's holding an objective without objective secured.
By the end of turn 3, most of the army is usually dead. However, so is almost everything that can move fast that my opponent's brought and everything else is sitting in their deployment zone. For them it's then a race to catch up on the VP I already scored, while in most missions the gretchin in my half of the table keep scoring. It's basically about forcing decisions on them while taking away their options.
Not sure how well this translates to ITC.
So in regard of actually going to a tournament, the warbikers are a pretty inefficient unit that cannot be easily replaced as any infantry unit (boyz/storm boyz) suddenly provide great targets for anti-infantry guns which had none before and other fast units (koptas, KBB, trike, nob bikers) lack the speed or the footprint to tag as many units. Now, if trukkboyz were viable... I guess you could wall in your opponent with burna bommers now, but that doesn't reduce enemy shooting as much.
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tulun wrote: Damn. I had ordered paint over the last few days to catch up on hobby. Hopefully they’ll try to do something about these orders.
Me too, which says a lot how boring has been the latest months.
In an ideal world, I don´t think we should need to invest more than 4CP per game on him. Because we should be able to spend the rest of the Cp on tricks and tools to adapt to the game and make it more flexible.
Which is why this new PA is great. IMHO.
Beside Ghaz, but eh...
Yeah, I think I agree here. I think Orks still live and die on CP -- having some in the back pocket for re-rolls, Kustom Ammo, More Dakka, Orks is never beaten (etc) is key in a lot of matchups.
I think triple bat will be able to be a bit more liberal about what you take, but if you go with Bat, bat, 1 CP detachment, you'll probably still wanna back pocket 8-10 CP in the bank for various stratagems... Sometimes even the *threat* of using a stratagem is enough to make your opponent more conservative. I've had many games where my opponent became more aggressive as soon as I dipped below 2 CP.
Those lists were about toying around with ideas. I'm sure after running them a couple of times, some of those kustom jobs will turn out to not be worth it and no longer be taken.
Especially the last list could make room for 3 more units of gretchin and another SAG to just do both.
I do think that spending two CP on kustom jobs like +1BS, Zappzag and Big Boom is more valuable than shooting a SSAG twice. Those do more damage right of the bat, and have a decent chance to hang around for another turn and do their damage again. They are also more reliable than a SSAG which still has a 50% chance to do absolutely nothing.
addnid wrote: 2 unsaved wounds causing 1d3 damage each with, the deathskulls reroll, means you are getting 5 wounds through. So with the mortal wounds you deal upon the charge you can basically shred 90% of any support characters.
Again not saying it’s worth the cp, just saying that it works. But I will stop with this as I don’t want to be an ass, and if you disagree with me it’s totally fine
The thing is, those 5 damage are an average which has a pretty high chance of not happening. That's the big problem with 40k Mathhammer, the more dice are involved, the less likely the average is going to happen, as variance increases. This is the very reason why the average damage of a SSAG in no way matches its performance in games.
So let's say there is a 66% chance of the scrapjet dealing 5 or more damage to a character, that's still a 33% of it failing to do so, getting bogged down and losing the jet with nothing to show for.
As it's a lot of work to calculate the actual percentage, I won't be doing it right now, but from napkin math it's probably worse than that.
I don't think we'll be getting much of anything for a few months. The only 40k that's going to be happening for a while is you painting whatever models you already have.
Those lists were about toying around with ideas. I'm sure after running them a couple of times, some of those kustom jobs will turn out to not be worth it and no longer be taken.
Especially the last list could make room for 3 more units of gretchin and another SAG to just do both.
I do think that spending two CP on kustom jobs like +1BS, Zappzag and Big Boom is more valuable than shooting a SSAG twice. Those do more damage right of the bat, and have a decent chance to hang around for another turn and do their damage again. They are also more reliable than a SSAG which still has a 50% chance to do absolutely nothing.
Oh no, for sure.
I think we'll find out a lot of this stuff is worth it, but we might just have to make some actual decisions on upgrades. It's a good problem, given Orks pretty much just been shoehorned into the same upgrades (looking at you Vigiulus + SSAG + relic klaw).
I'm pretty sure the optimal scenario though is to still have CP in your back pocket for the SSAG, though, even if both of those guns actually make Gunwagons worth fielding (what a world we live in where Gunwagons might not be actual trash tier units). As you noted, it's random, but with +1 to wound via Big Boss Killa, Deathskull rerolls, it's not so bad.
It'll be a really interesting balance between leveraging our CP hungry nature with these static boosts.
My second attempt at saga of the beast ork list barring any FAQs. I kinda gave up making large units of buggies to work still kinda expensive brittle and strats sometimes only work on 1.
Death skull detachment (vigilus)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk w grot
Warpead- mechanical seizure and da jump
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
Gunwagon- da boomer
10x + 1 squig tankbustas- in wagon
Grot detachment
SAG Mek w grot
SAG Mek w grot
3x10 grots
6x smasha gun (because I got 5 and will get 1 more)
6x killa kans w rokkits (sparkly bits)
Airwing detachment
Specialist mob- pyromaniacs
3x Burnabomber w skorcha missiles
Useful in game strategems
Vigilus shoot twice on gork
Flying headbutt
Wildfire
Honestly we now have a bunch of decent units but nothing that's amazing except a stacked SSAG. Which btw can get an invul and more health with cleverest boss.
It's not absolutely terrible. Nobody takes the Eldar support weapon that has similar stats (1 less AP but -4 on 6s to wound), BS3+, benefits from your craftworld (i.e. in most cases rerolls a roll to hit and wound + ignores cover), and costs 37 points. But that's probably because for 112 points you can get a nightspinner which is vastly better, rather than because it's terrible per se.
Re possible delay of FAQs and similar non-physical releases due the corona-virus shut-down, that is likely to depend on how well the relevant people are set up to work from home and whether any of those people are sick.
If we're lucky, they'll have little else to do and so the FAQ can proceed as normal (and might actually get proof-read for once ). If we're unlucky, someone important will be sick or can't get their PC to connect to the corporate network or whatever, and everything will be delayed Until Further Notice...
Clang wrote: Re possible delay of FAQs and similar non-physical releases due the corona-virus shut-down, that is likely to depend on how well the relevant people are set up to work from home and whether any of those people are sick.
If we're lucky, they'll have little else to do and so the FAQ can proceed as normal (and might actually get proof-read for once ). If we're unlucky, someone important will be sick or can't get their PC to connect to the corporate network or whatever, and everything will be delayed Until Further Notice...
Ive been checking ebay for ghazzy, not many resellers have him put up in the US yet (box isnt out yet which so no surprise but I thought they might still be taking orders for him) but id imagine shipping times are gonna be rough too
From one of my discount stores, the Thrakka box was just 112€. I get 45€ for the Space Wolves half, and a box of MANz is 39,20€ from that same store.
Which means Thrakka and box of nobz clock in at 27,80€ - a price I'm willing to pay for the model even if its rules are gak.
Now I just need to figure out what to do with yet another box of nobz
Okay, so a thought popped into my head. The flying eadbutt strat is great, can leave a bunch of support characters in critical condition but is unlikley to KO many of them. We do have a trait that lets you shoot characters in 18" could it be possible to use this to chip off those last few wounds. On a biker boss with a relic gun maybe?
Biker boss with a kustom shoota, maybe with gitstoppas or the dead shiny could get through the needed one or two right? Probably not against a 2++ though.
Mathhammer says 2.269 damage for shiny shoota and 1.555 for gitstoppas vs T4/3+.
I guess the shiney shoota loadout seems to be good enough for what you are trying to archive.
I played against a tyranid list with 40 stealers, swarmlord, some double shooting hive guard, regular warriors, and two exocrines, a bunch of gaunts filled out two battalions. .
Still figuring out the medium of online play but still had a fun game.
The list has 25 cp to give me a chance to try out everything new.
Burna Bomber: with the new strat, + flying over units I did a total of 21 mortal wounds to his army. I think this was totally worth it. I went second so he had time to spread out but tyranid ranged anti tank is a perennial weakness of the army so I could outrange him in the corner. Hilariously, he consolidated genestealers into the plane so I couldn't advance, limiting my movement to only 50 so I couldn't fly over the unit I really wanted too. Weird interaction but something to keep in mind.
Lootas: Just doing their thing, was still forced to use a reroll on a 1 shot volley despite spanner giving 2 tries at higher. Against poorly armored tyranids they did phenomenal. Even though warriors having -1 damage and ignore ap 1 was annoying. Lootas eventually punched through.
Meganobs: With new psychic power for +1 save. My opponent used over run to get to them turn 1 before they were buffed and killed 4. So when I cast the +1 armor on the remaining 6 and da jumped them forward I was hopeful but realistic. However they did amazing. They made their charge and killed second stealers down to 8. Those stealers then did a single wound in return. 1+ save is phenomenal. The meganobs proceeded to eat a full round of hiveguard and exocrine and lost only a single meganobs. eventually the stealers and a broodlord finished them but not before they brought down the broodlord that was wounded by the burna bomber.
KFF changes: I brought 2 of them for each clan in the army. Gonna take a little getting used to clan locked. however, 5++ in close combat is phenomenal. I was not concerned at all about stealers wiping out 60 grots to get to my lootas/characters.
Deathskull Psychic power: This power seems amazing but I just can't quite get it to work. I think it just hasn't come up yet in testing.
i may have to finally bite the bullet and axe a vehicle to add a third batt into my lists. Generally i find i prefer another vehicle (or two) instead of 5CP because vehicle lists really didnt use that much CP. Dropping a Naut + 1-2 Ramming Speed, Kustom Ammo on the SSAG, and 1-2 rerolls was really all i planned to use. I try to not use Kustom Ammo more than once since generally by then there isnt a super deadly target left i need dead NOW so i'd rather save the cp.
Yeah....that changed.... Suddenly vehicles are eating like 3-4CP for kustom jobs. Yeesh the CP demand lol. Little sad the KBB kustom job is a bit washed (useful but with only 6 shots and orky BS...that isnt going to trigger any mortals very often) and thats the only buggy i have multiples of. Super debating on buying more shockjumps now.
Really hope my local gamestore stays open long enough to get these preorders. They arent "closed" yet, just not allowing games, stay outside if too many inside, and reduced hours. I have a table in my basement and 2 40k playing roommates so i can still play...just need the plastic crack!!!
Jidmah wrote: From one of my discount stores, the Thrakka box was just 112€. I get 45€ for the Space Wolves half, and a box of MANz is 39,20€ from that same store.
Which means Thrakka and box of nobz clock in at 27,80€ - a price I'm willing to pay for the model even if its rules are gak.
Now I just need to figure out what to do with yet another box of nobz
if you have extra kombi weapons and 40 mil bases you have a squad of freebooterz
popisdead wrote: Unless I'm missing something the Teleporting Gorkanaut can be 2+ BS
5+ Stock.
4+ Kustom Job +1 BS 3+ Kustom Job fancier gun
2+ Freebooterz was triggered. Do a Dread Waaagh! shoot again. (i mention this as I play Freebooterz a fair bit these days). It's 4 CP (or more, or 3 and the Mekboy shop)?
You can't apply two Kustom Jobs to one unit.
Oh are the kustom jobs not the same as the ones from the mek shop?
I was hoping to be able to kustom job some buzz bombz on deff trikes.
kustom jobs are a stratagem you use in listbuilding. 1cp, one vehicle unit gets one of the listed Kustom Jobs.
Cannot use the same one twice or apply multiples to the same unit.
Mekshop's thing is totally different. Because yaknow kustom jobs are actually good. The "free" kustom job it gives now is literally a free instance of the stratagem.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's not absolutely terrible. Nobody takes the Eldar support weapon that has similar stats (1 less AP but -4 on 6s to wound), BS3+, benefits from your craftworld (i.e. in most cases rerolls a roll to hit and wound + ignores cover), and costs 37 points. But that's probably because for 112 points you can get a nightspinner which is vastly better, rather than because it's terrible per se.
That's interesting to me.
Because, roughly per point, 4 Lobbas is just a hair more expensive than 1 TFC (13 points) and outside of the dev doctrine, has roughly equivalent damage output (14 shots average, with explosions 8 hits, and it has +1 str, so better vs toughness 3, 5, 6).
If tremor shells weren't a thing, would TFCs still be taken?
Ah there we are. And less reliable. TFC still has it I think.
It's actually about the same because you can get a bunch more shots.. until you hit neg modifiers, of course.
48" is Loota range, though. It generally won't be an issue
JNAProductions wrote:
Edit: What else has Lobbas? Seems odd they'd call out something only in Legends. Or does a unit have it I'm forgetting?
Battlewagons can take it as an upgrade. I believe Squigs can take them too, and the Garg Squig gets a Supa Lobba (which I think becomes str 8, ap -3, D1). With Boom boys, it might be worth it.
Edit: Oddly, if a 48" str 6, AP-1, D1 weapon that hits out of LOS isn't worth it, are Dakkajets not? I think these actually beat those, point for point, and they can split fire freely for the BS4+.
Huge difference between Boomboy Lobba and Supashoota
Lobba is 18pts and 1 per wagon
Supashoota is 10pts and theres 6 of them.
Yeah the lobba is D6 shots but i'd trade that for flat3 any day. Number of times ive had an army with multiple D3/D6 weapons and i didnt roll anything higher than 2 the entire game has infuriated me many times.
I wish wagons didnt lose their Rokkit options, it would add even more fuel to this boomboy fire.
I'm referring more to the legends Lobba unit. Obviously not relevant if you can't take it in your games. You can take 1 - 6 per unit, they split like Mek Guns, and they are 27 points.
Edit: Honestly with boom boys, I might try something like:
2 units of TB w/ 2 Chinorks (Deathskull Chinorks, as they are not kultur locked, so the KMB gets a re roll to hit, wound, damage, and an invul save). Total cost for both is about 500 points.
20 re-roll to hit rokkits on vehicles at Str 9, ap-3, flat 3, that can deep strike for free.
Might toss in the Gunwagon with Da boomer just to test it out, although I think I'd rather it a deathskull generally.
I have 3 lobbas too, so maybe I'll toss them in for a lark.
I had a random shower thought earlier - perhaps the KFF Mek's new KFF is updated to reflect how the KFF is going to work in 9th ed/8.5ed? Rumours are that there's a new edition on the way - perhaps all the KFFs are going to change to the new rule soon? Might be indexes out again or something?
They better not.
KFF not protecting the vehicle its embarked in is even more stupid than auras in general (and spells) not working in Open Topped vehicles.
Pretty much would make it nigh impossible to KFF protect vehicles, as the only source of it that is faster than 5" can be focused down (and generally is as its a threat in its own right anyway)
I like it works in melee, even if its a bit weird, but i'd rather the old way.
Also, GW have several instances of the same rule having different effects. Admech have a repair rule that every character has (minus Daedaloseous) that is the same rule word-wise, but does different things. Its entirely possible this is just a different KFF.
TFC is valuable for (1) tremor shots and (2) it's reliability, which is further bolstered by having the shoot twice strat. 4d3 hitting on 2s results in a very consistent damage output, which is extremely valuable for no-LOS shooting, and very rare. Reliable shooting is always powerful, but it's even more powerful for no-LOS shooting, because that kind of shooting is often directed at MSU objective-holders and the like. If you can reliably wipe a unit of scouts, that's way more important than having a (say) 50% chance to wipe out two units, but a 50% chance to wipe out none.
Almost all no-LOS shooting is extremely inconsistent, which appears to be an intentional design choice to counteract the power of no-LOS shooting in an objective-based game. TFC breaks the general paradigm by offering extremely consistent no-LOS shooting, so it'd probably have a place even without tremor shells...though that certainly makes it even more attractive.
If it's linked to a new edition there is a good chance they will also change how units inside vehicles interact.
I'd say if, and it's a big if, they did the new KFF mek with 9th in mind, it would be because the new vehicle rule will say something along the lines of:
Units embarked within a transport count as always being within range of the vehicle, and the vehicle always counts as being in range of the unit.
I really doubt they're crafting rules now in anticipation of 9th edition rules changes. They'll need to change all the other old rules, so I don't really see much value in issuing a few rules that mess up current 8th edition now for the benefit of not having to fix them later when they have to fix 95% of the rules either way.
Honestly I think that's giving too much credit. I think the 99/100 chance is they just flubbed the proofreading on the datasheet completely. It's not like the KFF is the only weird thing about it. The whole thing is messed up.
yukishiro1 wrote: I really doubt they're crafting rules now in anticipation of 9th edition rules changes. They'll need to change all the other old rules, so I don't really see much value in issuing a few rules that mess up current 8th edition now for the benefit of not having to fix them later when they have to fix 95% of the rules either way.
Honestly I think that's giving too much credit. I think the 99/100 chance is they just flubbed the proofreading on the datasheet completely. It's not like the KFF is the only weird thing about it. The whole thing is messed up.
I’m on the something is up train... it doesn’t make sense for them to keep the big Mek w kff exactly the same... they would have put it into the codex if that was the case... instead the deliberately didn’t put it into the codex and deliberately didn’t put it into legands which is crazy since it’s one of the few units without a model right now and that’s just not GW....
So they shoehorn it into a psychic awakening book and keep the datasheet exactly the same except screw up the kff profile? Which everything else is just copy and paste? None of this adds up... and I’m still surprised we haven’t seen a model.
But that's even sillier, because that would imply some plan from way back years ago when the Codex came out to hold back this one unit for...reasons?
They left it out of the codex by mistake, or because they didn't have a model for it. The datasheet is screwed up because they didn't proofread.
If any of this was intentional there would be an indication in the book that they are aware of the changes (no working from inside vehicle, working in melee, reducing the cost by 20 points) and they were intentional, and that it was intentional that there is now a difference between all the other KFFs and the one on the normal big mek.
I totally believe they have a new model coming - they wouldn't have included the datasheet otherwise. But I see absolutely no reason to think that screwing up the datasheet in weird inexplicable ways was some master plan rather than just the screw-up it obviously seems to be.
I'm not gonna bank on the KFF being faq'd to having any of the old abilities myself. I would happily take a 5++ in melee over when transported.
I am hoping that all KFF's just become abilities and remove the point cost, MA big mek will be a lot more appealing.
1. Big surprise with long expected small (or great) models.
2. Refresh of Forgeword
3. Another new blue primaris leutenant. This time, the man will stuck the finger in his nose Or something like it.
99. I'm afraid, these surprises will be postpound. Because it makes no sence from business side of view to work hard (burn the money) on pumping up expectation and than make a “great surprise” and say “ok, but you can' t order it for next 3 months”.
They can pumping up the “i need this” atmosfere for couple of weeks - and they do it regulary - but not for months.
Bult back to topic, this is about Proppa Ork Tactic!
I found a very fun combination yeasterday - Ride of Three Kings. I doubt about high effcienty but I don' t dubt about the fun and painting potential....
Core =
- Wartrike boosted up via Kult of speed detach + PA improvements. It becomes quite nasty already.
- warboss on bike boosted via PA Biggest boss and power klaw and WT - cheapest per point but most killing
- Zhadsnark - also not bad
And surround them with warbikes and deffkoptas.
You can cover the board super fast, maybe charge T1 and lack of infantry and big vehicles deprived very common “anti infatry” and “anti tank” setups.
gungo wrote: I’m on the something is up train... it doesn’t make sense for them to keep the big Mek w kff exactly the same... they would have put it into the codex if that was the case... instead the deliberately didn’t put it into the codex and deliberately didn’t put it into legands which is crazy since it’s one of the few units without a model right now and that’s just not GW....
Technically, it does have a model, and it's one that would be still available if not for the finecast disaster. When legends was announced pretty much every blogger and youtuber called out the KFF mek to be the main loser of the whole shift, and GW probably caught wind of that and took counter-measures. He is not the only variant model in the game that does not have a model, but can easily build by minor kitbashes.
So they shoehorn it into a psychic awakening book and keep the datasheet exactly the same except screw up the kff profile? Which everything else is just copy and paste? None of this adds up... and I’m still surprised we haven’t seen a model.
Been considering for a while trying to help my brother with a concept he had a while back, 'Firemen Orks' (they obviously would misunderstand the term in predictable ways), and the revelation of the Pyromaniac Subkultur has renewed my interest in this.
I enjoy modeling, but I've played very little Orks; I can realize what they do and make a theoretical list, but have no idea how effective it would be on the table, so I'm hoping for some guidance on how viable something with parts like this may be:
Centerpiece of a Firetrukk:
Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha and two Skorchas, carrying 5 Nobz with kombi-Skorchas plus the Warlord (maybe a Big Mek with KFF and Kombi-Skorcha? Honestly, the HQs feel all just meh for this concept)
Additional fast support, the First Responders:
Kustom Boosta-Blastas (2? 3? Love the idea of the flame exhausts, but unsure if they need to get too close to get good use out of them)
Aerial support:
Burna-Bommer, with Skorcha Missles now that they're only 5 points (was thinking only one of these, but maybe worth taking several?
Everyday civilians, because need troops:
Boyz; probably Shootas, but maybe Choppas?
Not really sure what else to use in here.
Meganobz with kombi-skorchas?
Deffdreads? I would generally just give them four arms, but is it worth giving them a pair of Skorchas if they're Pyros?
Burna Boyz in Trukks are still not ideal even now that they're 10 points, right?
A shame Kommandos can't take Burnas anymore even though there's a model for it.
Any of this particularly good and I should lean into, or horribly bad and I should avoid like the plague? Not looking to win regional championships or anything, just have a reasonably competitive but themed army.
There were rumours of an 'Orks Vs Wolves boxed set', 'new Ghaz' and then, in the next edition, a major overhaul to most of our line. You never know peeps, Orks must be one of, if not the most popular xenos faction. If you follow the Facebook and community posts our articles always get lots of comments and likes. Perhaps GW have realised there's money in us and giving us new models would be sensible?! Dare to dream?!
On the topic at hand, I can see myself taking the following kustom jobs -
1. Whirlygig gubbins (shokkjump auto jump, every game).
2. Souped up speshul (snazzwagon upgrade but only against certain armies - Eldar in particular).
3. Korkscrew (against certain opponents, not sure on this will require testing).
4. Trike Boss extra flamer range (depends on matchup again).
5. Da Boomer (every game).
6. Forktress (every game).
7. Shiny gubbins (to be used on Mork/Gorkanaut).
8. Slug dakka thing (Gorkanaut 24 shot gun with +1 to hit within 12").
That's potentially 8 CP gone before the game starts! Big killa boss is basically mandatory so there's another 1. Dread mob there's another. I'm also planning on using the KBB stratagem for better flamers so there's another. SJD jump shoot jump strat so another 2 or 3 depending on how long SJD survives. Snazzwagon strat - add another 1. Maybe the extra strength for warbikers strat. Kustom ammo takes me to 16 CP spent I believe before the end of the first turn
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: Centerpiece of a Firetrukk:
Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha and two Skorchas, carrying 5 Nobz with kombi-Skorchas plus the Warlord (maybe a Big Mek with KFF and Kombi-Skorcha? Honestly, the HQs feel all just meh for this concept)
The wartrike's killajet is a flamer/melta, so maybe that is a HQ that fits your theme?
Kustom Boosta-Blastas (2? 3? Love the idea of the flame exhausts, but unsure if they need to get too close to get good use out of them)
KBB in general work best by trying to line up shots with the rivet gun why unloading the exhausts, stikkbomb and blasta on some target that will not tie them down in combat.
Burna-Bommer, with Skorcha Missles now that they're only 5 points (was thinking only one of these, but maybe worth taking several?
I very much think so. Bombs dealing wounds on 3+ are awesome, as are the wildfire and flying 'eadbut stratagems.
Skorcha missiles at 5 are a good way to dump points, but something that's not mandatory, the re-rolls help them as well obviously.
Everyday civilians, because need troops:
Boyz; probably Shootas, but maybe Choppas?
If you are going vehicle heavy, gretchin are probably the better choice. The difference is marginal in your case though, if you want boyz, do boyz. Just make sure to bring a weirdboy if you do, da jump is mandatory.
Meganobz with kombi-skorchas?
MANz are usually to slow to catch anything with skorchas. Probably not.
Deffdreads? I would generally just give them four arms, but is it worth giving them a pair of Skorchas if they're Pyros?
Similar problem as MANz, they work best coming in from deep strike, which means out of flamer range. What might work is bringing units of kanz/grot tanks with skorchas and outfit them with some of the new kustom jobs. Unlike with regular cultures, gretchin do benefit from pyromaniacs.
Burna Boyz in Trukks are still not ideal even now that they're 10 points, right?
Re-rolling wounds is a rather powerful mechanic, if you are already sold on pyromaniacs and have the models/can get them cheap, I'd give them a try.
Any of this particularly good and I should lean into, or horribly bad and I should avoid like the plague? Not looking to win regional championships or anything, just have a reasonably competitive but themed army.
In general, I would open up to the idea of using weapons with the "Kustom-" prefix. This gives you a lot more choices, and the weapons are basically shooting ignited gas at high velocity, or in other words, fireballs. When you have a close look at any of them, they look very similar to burnas or skorchas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (cut out the ones I 100% agree on)
Don't know about every game. Right now, I'm in a TTS game against necrons, and I wouldn't even know where to jump my SJD. Definitely a powerful kustom job, but I can still see not picking it in some lists.
2. Souped up speshul (snazzwagon upgrade but only against certain armies - Eldar in particular).
Huh, good point, I only realized now that kustom job is a stratagem, so you can pick them depending on your opponent, allowing you to switch between games.
4. Trike Boss extra flamer range (depends on matchup again).
Personally, I think this is mandatory whenever you bring a trike. The extra range also means more melta-range which is what I use most with him - with deff skulls re-rolls this is a pretty reliable high AP high damage shot. The extra hits and range on the flamer also make him a pain to counter-charge, his main cause of death in my games.
6. Forktress (every game).
It's an awesome job, but who do I give it to? The gunwagons need the other jobs, and I still have the problem of not having any passengers for my bonebreakas - the one guy worth transporting turned into a MONSTER.
7. Shiny gubbins (to be used on Mork/Gorkanaut).
8. Slug dakka thing (Gorkanaut 24 shot gun with +1 to hit within 12").
IMO the slugg gubbin is the superior choice for the Gorkanaut, as the skorcha auto-hits anyways and the extra shots are better than +1 to hit on a pair of rokkits and a bunch of big shootas.
I also think that the shiny gubbin on the morkanaut make it a better target for kustom ammo than the SSAG.
Totally missed the existence of the killajet, that might work well.
KBBs seem like they might be a decent anti-vehicle addition to an army that is otherwise very anti-infantry, while still adding to that themselves, might have to take several.
Burna-Bommers seem better the more I look at them. I keep seeing Explosive Demise mentioned with them, is that just a reference to their Explodes rule and trying to set it up, or some Strategy I'm not finding?
He does already have like 20 Burna Boyz, might need to give that a try. I assume the Trukk is basically mandatory?
Good idea with the kustom blasta thing. Could be a decent addition for a few characters, plus maybe Clever Spanner might end up worth it. Maybe Mek Guns for more vehicle-wrecking; I know Smasha Guns are considered amazing, are the Kustom guns decent too?
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: Burna-Bommers seem better the more I look at them. I keep seeing Explosive Demise mentioned with them, is that just a reference to their Explodes rule and trying to set it up, or some Strategy I'm not finding?
You are probably missing this new stratagem:
Spoiler:
If you can get a burna bommer into a spot where it is in range of many units, just drop it on their heads.
He does already have like 20 Burna Boyz, might need to give that a try. I assume the Trukk is basically mandatory?
A trukk, or maybe even better a battlewagon with the forktress kustom job for 3+/5++
Good idea with the kustom blasta thing. Could be a decent addition for a few characters, plus maybe Clever Spanner might end up worth it. Maybe Mek Guns for more vehicle-wrecking; I know Smasha Guns are considered amazing, are the Kustom guns decent too?
They have a similar damage per point efficiency as smashas, but smashas are much more efficient in terms of wounds per points. So for casual games, you can substitute them.
The morkanaut is another plattform for kustom weapons as well.
i guarantee the inclusion of the KFF mek was GW realizing they just made a huge mistake removing it, given the massive outcry from the ork fanbase it caused, and they panic put it back.
It needed its datasheet altered to include new rules and not allow options the "original" model they DID offer had access to, so it wasnt flatout copy/pasted, and more than likely wasnt proofread since its a non-model unit anyway.
Regardless it needs a faq no matter how its intended because as of right now it technically doesnt even have a KFF, like Buzzgob it just lists the rule.
Vineheart01 wrote: i guarantee the inclusion of the KFF mek was GW realizing they just made a huge mistake removing it, given the massive outcry from the ork fanbase it caused, and they panic put it back.
It needed its datasheet altered to include new rules and not allow options the "original" model they DID offer had access to, so it wasnt flatout copy/pasted, and more than likely wasnt proofread since its a non-model unit anyway.
Regardless it needs a faq no matter how its intended because as of right now it technically doesnt even have a KFF, like Buzzgob it just lists the rule.
Unlike Buzzgob, he doesn't need to be equipped with one though, because the rule is written that badly.
Chicago's very own local Orks legend, Dustin Quebedeaux (placed 58th place besting Brandon Grant by 1 spot), talks tactics with Grots and Killa Kans in GDFC's latest tactica piece.
So, I've tried the burna bomber in a couple matches and so far I've been impressed. I think my opponents didn't respect it and let it happen though so it hit 6-8 units.
I'm curious to see how much it changes my opponents strategy when they do take it seriously.
Chicago's very own local Orks legend, Dustin Quebedeaux (placed 58th place besting Brandon Grant by 1 spot), talks tactics with Grots and Killa Kans in GDFC's latest tactica piece.
I was actually thinking about Tin Heads this morning.
Killa Kans w/ Tin Eads kind of feel like bulky MANz (at 35 points each, they have 5 wounds, T5, 3+ save, similar number of attacks). I actually think there is probably some potential, but I disagree with his assessment on the Trike.
I think *probably* the way you make this list work is bringing the Trike w/ Breakin' heads, so you don't necessarily need a Warboss (although bringing a warboss is not necessarily a bad idea) -- but it would allow you to save 80-108 points, which is potentially another 3 KK or MANz if you're going Tin Heads anyway. I would probably also give them the +3" movement, so they can really get up there fast.
Question is: Do we keep them cheap (IE Big shoota) or go for the rockets? Even advancing, those rockets hit a on 5+. And I assume we go for the Kan Klaw (+3 str, ap-3, 3 Damage)?
I kind of think it would be fun to field a KK / MANz Tin head detachment. Would it be good? maybe not.
Warboss on warbike is such an efficient choice it's tough to see any list I wouldn't bring him in. Especially with the massive buff you get for 1CP. I mean I guess if you run Ghaz, maybe...lol.
yukishiro1 wrote: Warboss on warbike is such an efficient choice it's tough to see any list I wouldn't bring him in. Especially with the massive buff you get for 1CP. I mean I guess if you run Ghaz, maybe...lol.
Yup, that's totally fair. I do think you take a Trike to advance them, though! I think they can get their turn 2 with 9" movement, re-rolling advance no problem.
What do you think of their weapon kit? Big Shoota / Kan Klaw @ 35 points?
Tin Headz is literally the only subkulture that'll see use, that is in a semi-comp or comp list. All the other ones simply dont affect enough stuff to justify an entire detachment of that subkulture. Especially when most of them flatout dont benefit the HQs, yet you still need to bring them, and losing the klan tag on some characters can be a major pain at times.
It affects a LOT of units that are commonly used, so you could build (minus grot troops) a proper detachment where everybody benefits from it, unlike the other subkultures, and the bonus is powerful enough to justify a KFF Mek or Waaagh Banner Nob despite those 2 not actually benefiting from the subkulture (though the MegaMek would, probably wouldnt keep up unless it kept rolling very well on advances)
I actually want more kanz now. I have a squad of 6 with magnetic rokkits, though no alternate arms yet since until now rokkits were the only one you'd want to use anyway (now bigshoota is viable since it cuts a ton of points and their melee can be a proper threat instead of just lucky-kill potential)
I already use a naut in every game and have been trying to include Meganobz, and even been using the MegaMek despite it being kinda lackluster. So that subkulture is amazing to me.
With Da Kleverest Mek and Tin Heads, you could bring his WS down to a 1+... 2+ to hit on his Klaw. That's actually not bad. Have something like Fist of Gork handy, and with like a Warboss, Mad Dok, maybe a wartrike, you have a lot of viable, krumpy CC characters.
Chicago's very own local Orks legend, Dustin Quebedeaux (placed 58th place besting Brandon Grant by 1 spot), talks tactics with Grots and Killa Kans in GDFC's latest tactica piece.
I was actually thinking about Tin Heads this morning.
Killa Kans w/ Tin Eads kind of feel like bulky MANz (at 35 points each, they have 5 wounds, T5, 3+ save, similar number of attacks). I actually think there is probably some potential, but I disagree with his assessment on the Trike.
I think *probably* the way you make this list work is bringing the Trike w/ Breakin' heads, so you don't necessarily need a Warboss (although bringing a warboss is not necessarily a bad idea) -- but it would allow you to save 80-108 points, which is potentially another 3 KK or MANz if you're going Tin Heads anyway. I would probably also give them the +3" movement, so they can really get up there fast.
Question is: Do we keep them cheap (IE Big shoota) or go for the rockets? Even advancing, those rockets hit a on 5+. And I assume we go for the Kan Klaw (+3 str, ap-3, 3 Damage)?
I kind of think it would be fun to field a KK / MANz Tin head detachment. Would it be good? maybe not.
I think you're going to find it better than you'd think. That is the case with a lot of the "upgrades" to armies through PA. Whether it's TOP-TIER competitive, who knows. But it'll be a ton of fun and can be played very competitively.
Jidmah wrote: Huh, good point, I only realized now that kustom job is a stratagem, so you can pick them depending on your opponent, allowing you to switch between games.
It's an awesome job, but who do I give it to? The gunwagons need the other jobs, and I still have the problem of not having any passengers for my bonebreakas - the one guy worth transporting turned into a MONSTER.
IMO the slugg gubbin is the superior choice for the Gorkanaut, as the skorcha auto-hits anyways and the extra shots are better than +1 to hit on a pair of rokkits and a bunch of big shootas.
I also think that the shiny gubbin on the morkanaut make it a better target for kustom ammo than the SSAG.
The fact that the Kustom Jobs are pre-game strats is massive. Gives us a ton of flexibility.
Forktress goes on Bonebreaka that has either 10 Grots or 10/12 Boyz (to be mobbed up). I love me a Bonebreaka.
Yeah. I laughed.
No joke he beats all that in 1on1 combat. He can only take 4 damage and very reliably wipes the floor with anyone that doesnt lucky-invul everything.
Will he ever get to fight something without being down to 4 wounds anyway? probably not.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah. I laughed.
No joke he beats all that in 1on1 combat. He can only take 4 damage and very reliably wipes the floor with anyone that doesnt lucky-invul everything.
Will he ever get to fight something without being down to 4 wounds anyway? probably not.
You know, his 285 point cost makes sense now.
They literally balanced him like this:
Start him on the board in CC with all these units. See what happens.
"He wins them all! He's Da Beast!" Well, gotta crank up his points then, ship it.
GW has proven time and time again that they dont seem to think about CC models actually having to REACH combat in their price, both for units that lack anything that boost their speed or ones that have it seemingly being the same cost (factoring stat differences) Technically Nobz w/ Bigchoppas are stupid deadly for their cost. 3A at S7 AP1 2D hitting on 3s for 19pts on a 2w model? That sounds amazing....except they tend to be reduced down to 1-2 models if even alive at all by the time they see combat.
Kinda like how they are horribly bad at factoring how valuable rerolls are, especially Wound variety.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tin Headz is literally the only subkulture that'll see use, that is in a semi-comp or comp list. All the other ones simply dont affect enough stuff to justify an entire detachment of that subkulture. Especially when most of them flatout dont benefit the HQs, yet you still need to bring them, and losing the klan tag on some characters can be a major pain at times.
It affects a LOT of units that are commonly used, so you could build (minus grot troops) a proper detachment where everybody benefits from it, unlike the other subkultures, and the bonus is powerful enough to justify a KFF Mek or Waaagh Banner Nob despite those 2 not actually benefiting from the subkulture (though the MegaMek would, probably wouldnt keep up unless it kept rolling very well on advances)
I actually want more kanz now. I have a squad of 6 with magnetic rokkits, though no alternate arms yet since until now rokkits were the only one you'd want to use anyway (now bigshoota is viable since it cuts a ton of points and their melee can be a proper threat instead of just lucky-kill potential)
I already use a naut in every game and have been trying to include Meganobz, and even been using the MegaMek despite it being kinda lackluster. So that subkulture is amazing to me.
.
I could see Boomboyz or whatever it's called getting a lot of use as well. A squad of Tankbustaz all shooting with lascannon equivalents is nasty. Could even be worth including a Gunwagon or 2 with S9 AP-3 Killkannons.
Yeah thats a close second. Technically no good HQ choice but weirdboyz are always a default for that problem, and nobody cares about grots (they can protect the weirdboy from snipers anyway so not even grot shields is lost, or in your case the tankbustas). If youre trying to use a subkulture you probably dont care about the kulture specific spells either.
Technically losing Shoot Again is painful, but personally i HATE not having tankbustas in a vehicle. Their presence alone is a distraction that draws attention, even if they arent doing anything becuase theyre hiding from LoS until i can kill those random lascannons, my opponents will often duck away from my army to try and get them before its too late.
...now that i say that i kinda wanna run a wagon Forktress with tankbustas in it and 2 Gunwagons, assuming Da Booma works giving that to one of them too. Lord knows i got enough wagons to do that and then some....lol
I don't think grot megatanks or kans can be affected by the subkultures outside of the grot specific one. As much as i'd love to. Kans and grot tanks would do okay with boomboyz.
cody.d. wrote: I don't think grot megatanks or kans can be affected by the subkultures outside of the grot specific one. As much as i'd love to. Kans and grot tanks would do okay with boomboyz.
Actually, it looks like they do. Like huntas says all infantry *but* gretchin; Tin Heads add Killa Kans. I think they exclude gretchin specifically, not implicitly, given these are not the same rules as Kulturs.
I dunno, in the codex just before warlord traits and klan rules it does say that grots get culture IE the keyword but unless specified do not get any benefit. Tin eads does specifically say Kans but besides the grot one I don't think any of them add any of the runtz as being affected.
The rule test for subcultures is different from that and makes no exception for gretchin.
You replace all clan keywords with the subculture and then every model gets the culture - whether this does anything is another matter.
Subcultures do not use the rules for regular cultures, but are a separate thing.
Gretchin says they dont benefit from the "kulture" These are "subkultures" - unless its like the Bolter rule where "for the intents of this rule all weapons containing 'Bolt' are affected" then that slight difference does matter.
They already mentioned Buzzgob, so they are writing it with awareness of FW - which is REALLY WEIRD for GW to actually pay attention to those possibilities (probably due to the IH + Leviathan issue)
Megatank would be affected by Boomboyz and Grot kulture, though i dont THINK anything else would apply. Boomboyz doesnt mention a unit, it mentions a weapon, and megatanks are covered in rokkits. I was planning to kitbash one before our codex came out and completely dumped on any gretchin model so i abandoned that idea, i may revisit that plan.
Actually it definitely works because they mentioned Grot Tanks in the grot army, i dont see why Grot Tank would and Grot Mega Tank would not.
I wonder if when the new FW book comes out we'll get some extra kustom jobs options for the FW stuff, because right now very little if any of them is legal on FW stuff.
About FW, the higher awareness is more likely because they now actually have the same guys writing those things. Which is good!
As for the gretchin discussion, I suggest reading the rules right in front of the sub culture descriptions. It's a complete separate mechanism from cultures that overwrites the clan keywords.
So just to be clear, the burna strat deals MW on the enemy 7nit within 6 ONLY on 5+, not only can’t it benefit from the arsonist subculture, it doesn’t get the +1 to wound if target is Infantry, right ?
So I just realized I can FINALLY do a proper representation of Grukk Facerippa on the table. Warboss with Biggest Boss strat, Supa Cybork relic and Brutal but Kunnin' with his personal Forktress Bonebreaka war chariot Killa Klaw is also a possibility but I've personally always liked my beatsticks tanky.
Vineheart01 wrote: Burna strat states it doesnt benefit from that subkulture so yeah its locked to 5+
Thanks, but that part is more than explicit It’s the infantry thing I am more dubious bout. Did they forget the bonus against infantry or was it deliberate (to not make the strat too potent ?)
I would wager no because its a completely separate rule causing it to "splash" to the next unit, not "resolve this again on that unit, but you dont benefit from the Arsonist subkulture"
Jidmah wrote: The rule test for subcultures is different from that and makes no exception for gretchin.
You replace all clan keywords with the subculture and then every model gets the culture - whether this does anything is another matter.
Subcultures do not use the rules for regular cultures, but are a separate thing.
That's my reading as well, since sub cultures aren't ARMY wide anyway. They are far more narrow in what units they target. Seems like they were including restrictions pretty clearly in the descriptions (See: Huntas).
Ebook drops tomorrow. I know a lot of folks want that good physical copy in their hands, but this might be the best we get until whenever Corona becomes a more manageable pandemic.
Jidmah wrote: The rule test for subcultures is different from that and makes no exception for gretchin.
You replace all clan keywords with the subculture and then every model gets the culture - whether this does anything is another matter.
Subcultures do not use the rules for regular cultures, but are a separate thing.
That's my reading as well, since sub cultures aren't ARMY wide anyway. They are far more narrow in what units they target. Seems like they were including restrictions pretty clearly in the descriptions (See: Huntas).
While I agree that as written many of the subcultures do work on grots, I'm more worried about them deciding to change that in the FAQ. They chucked anything with the gretchin tag under the bus once, so they might again.
flandarz wrote: Ebook drops tomorrow. I know a lot of folks want that good physical copy in their hands, but this might be the best we get until whenever Corona becomes a more manageable pandemic.
Yeah, it's with a :sadface: but I'll get the eBook as well so I can prep a Wolf army and so I can dust off and build some Orkz while I'm locked up at home (and continue to build my TSons).
I don't think it's necessarily a terrible change in the abstract, but in practice it'd require tweaking a lot of game values on almost every datasheet, or at a minimum redoing points costs to account for what you've thrown out of whack.
Seems a really weird choice to do for a .5-style edition update that isn't intended to change things dramatically.
Really the only 2 main-rule-book changes i feel are needed are cover and morale. Morale is too easy to ignore for some and far far too punishing for others, theres very little if any middleground. And cover can easily be fixed by reverting back to previous editions of a fixed save and per-model basis with the choice to "target those not in cover" if you want.
The other issues in 8th are codex-bound, which an edition change probably wouldnt even affect.
Terrain-related stuff (including LOS) is the really obvious thing, it's inexplicable how much it's been ignored in 8th given the massive impact it has on the game.
I agree morale is a mess but I'm not sure that's something that can easily be fixed in a .5-style update.
Falling back is another thing that needs a big rework but again it's not the sort of thing for a minor update.
It would throw so much out of whack. It seems like that size (4x4) works well for small games, but not at 1500.
Especially with the bigger base sizes. Like a 1750 boyz horde army on a 4x4 board...you could credibly fill almost the whole board with models.
And it'd make DS almost impossible without extensive chaff clearing. It's already easy enough to bracket off large portions of the board from DS...on a 4x4 board it'd make it easy to bracket off the whole thing aside from a tiny corner somewhere.
Falling back is mostly codex-bound, the only core rule for it is Fly - which admittedly should be nerfed a bit too.
Im fine with units being allowed to fall back and fire, but it really should be at a penalty. It always bothered me in old editions that you couldnt just "fall back" even at a severe disadvantage. Something like the engaged unit gets 1 attack per model would make sense, slightly tapping back to Sweeping Advance but nowhere near as disgustingly stupid. Falling back from chaff like that grot mob that you somehow failed to kill off wouldnt really be a problem, but falling back from a squad of Nobz could easily kill you if you were in a weakened enough state or their weapons hard countered you. Disallow this for Titanic unless its a Titanic unit thats engaged with you, so they can walk away from any infantry/vehicle/monster without titanic just fine and no fear.
But thats all hypothetical stuff i highly doubt GW would think of that in-depth. I just hope to god they dont bring back sweeping advance....man i hated that rule so much....random single marine sergeant somehow didnt get hurt by my Meganobz (bad hit rolls), mananged to poke it for 1 damage, SWEEP manz is dead. So fething dumb.
edit: Also, smaller board size and games would massively limit what you can bring. 8th edition is very obviously geared around 2k points right now, every time i field less than that the game feels lacking and Titanics feel even more ridiculous. Its too easy to kill one problem unit or the counter for your problem unit so there needs to be multiples most of the time, which i struggle with at 1500pts currently. Hell, even at 1500pts i think orks would struggle to even put everything on the board! Any idea how many 2k games ive played where i had to put a unit on the far side of my deployment simply because i had nowhere else to put them? lol
Yeah, Deep strike would be almost pointless. It would allow you to charge the front of their line which I guess is fine, but people would just offer you screens so that tactic probably would become useless.
I would just start hunkering down and giving my gak as much defence as possible (KFF, FNP), and march up the board.
It's hard to believe even GW could look at the current state of the game and say: "You know what we need to buff? Castles that sit in the middle of the board and abuse auras!"
1500 points being the new standard isn't a terrible idea I suppose, I think 1750 is fine because 2k is starting to get incredibly generous IMO. Then again, if GW continues to drop points costs all the time and almost never bring anything but the most egregious up in cost then 1500 maybe isn't too small?
Also, Emircana, that's still the definition of a rumour I'm sorry to say. You knowing someone who's aware of the rules and updates to a new edition and has relayed them to you is still very much an unverified account. You might know this to be true but zero evidence has been brought in to corroborate, no official statement has been made etc. That's a rumour.
Edit: But yeah, a 4x4 board would be crazy. Imagine 2 horde armies facing off against each other, there legitimately wouldn't be any board space left to maneuver.
And it's also hard to see GW looking at the current state of the game and saying: "You know what the problem is? People can't shoot and fight each other early enough in the game! Let's make the game board smaller so even more games last one or two turns!"
But again, this is GW. They work in strange and mysterious ways.
I wrote a thing, though Nick scrubbed my pictures referencing "The Other Guys" with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg in the opening paragraphs so my creativity has been tarnished forever.
Overall I think you've hit the nail on the head with that article (and removing The Other Guys references should be illegal) but I'd argue Mek Guns are durable because they're in units of 1 as soon as they've dropped. Smasha guns become durable since they're so cheap but there's also a real risk of overkilling said unit. If killa kanz are ever going to be a thing again I imagine it's through buffing large-ish units of them, which incidentally almost makes them less durable than smasha guns. a 3+ or av 5+ save are worlds apart, or at least they were pre-SM codex 2019, now most things that are firing at T5+ are fairly high AP it seems and that 6+ invuln might not be substantially worse (if at all) than the normal kan save.
I, like many other Ork players, have quite a few kanz accumulated from over the years and I'm real eager to try the out but unfortunately real life seems to have come in the way of that. It'll be interesting to see if a pretty mature Ork meta evolves throughout the quarantine days despite people not being to playtest much, if at all.
Kanz just have so many drawbacks it's really hard to see them being competitive, even with all the changes. They kinda combine all the weak keywords and attributes in 8th edition, which just adds up to a bad package, almost no matter how much you tweak the stat-line.
Melee Kans, going down to a 3+, seem more interesting to me than Shooting Kans.
The problem is that Smasha guns are just too efficient per point. They average 16.5 points per shot for a MUCH better weapon. KK get 1 shot at BS4+ at 39 points (KMB) or 42 points (Rocket).
BS3+ helps with the kustom job, but they still suffer from a 24" range vs the 48" of a Smasha.
Melee Kans on the other hand are as cheap as 35 points, w/ Tin Heads hit on a 4+, down to a 3+ with a Waaagh banner, and can get a 9" move and a 2 die advance roll. They are basically weird, bulky MANz in combat, except they get flat 3 damage instead of d3. Also potentially +1 attacks, toughness, +2 wounds.
Emicrania wrote: I was talking with a friend of mine that works with the FAQ team. They leaked some news so his ndr Is not threatened ATM.
They should announce 9th soon enough (tomorrow maybe?), What is gonna change is:
- Smaller boards (4'*4' ?)
- Suggested army size 1500
- Terrain rules like 5th edition - ish
- Tournament rules
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is not a rumor, is a fact, the only thing is when is gonna happen, given Nurgle year
Calling BS on this - there's so many companies that have a direct involvement in the rules now and that also, conveniently, have a vested interest in selling certain sized mats (6x4 as they're more expensive).
I know and I feel you, but I´m 99.99% sure it's gonna be smaller than 6´x4´. Which is why Frontline gaming has been doing sales the last month on battlemat.
I get it it sounds nuts, but I seriously suggest to refrain on buying mats for a while until this gets cleared out.
They could do an alternate ruleset for less than 1500pts that uses specifically 4x4, but above 1500pts uses 6x4 still.
As of right now i dont think 40k even has 4x4 rules in the normal game.
I wrote a thing, though Nick scrubbed my pictures referencing "The Other Guys" with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg in the opening paragraphs so my creativity has been tarnished forever.
I liked the article, do you think would it be possible to play a heavy vehicle list again with ghazzy as a centrepiece?
I think you forgot to call Nick "cuz", that is why.
I wrote a thing, though Nick scrubbed my pictures referencing "The Other Guys" with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg in the opening paragraphs so my creativity has been tarnished forever.
I liked the article, do you think would it be possible to play a heavy vehicle list again with ghazzy as a centrepiece?
I think you forgot to call Nick "cuz", that is why.
Damn, next time I'll remember to call him that.
Also, I definitely think so. I've tried a few renditions and managed to win both games, one against nick. However, the risk it feels like riding variability rocket to the moon with so many fewer tough wounds and a 5++ as your main defense in most cases.
Also, I definitely think so. I've tried a few renditions and managed to win both games, one against nick. However, the risk it feels like riding variability rocket to the moon with so many fewer tough wounds and a 5++ as your main defense in most cases.
I think the vehicle spammy list has potential, because at least it leans into his new 4 wound a phase rule to protect your other vehicles. He's a distraction to keep your buggies, gorks, wagons (etc) alive.
The Goff boy spam list makes no sense to me. We could do this with old Ghaz, and the only difference was re-roll 1s is gone, it's 50 points cheaper, and the opponent couldn't touch him so wasted all of their anti tank... and no one did it. It seems to me this new iteration is *worse* than the old one.
I'd rather take this strategy with Da Biggest Boss, and I reckon it would do better, as I have 30 more boys on the board.
Also, I definitely think so. I've tried a few renditions and managed to win both games, one against nick. However, the risk it feels like riding variability rocket to the moon with so many fewer tough wounds and a 5++ as your main defense in most cases.
I don't feel that any list with new Ghaz' can be competitive. He's just too expensive and too easily ignored/screened out. What did you play against, what did you take? How did you deal with screens? Why did Ghaz' perform better than a Big Killa Boss with Killa Klaw? Why didn't Nick just plonk his stuff in ruins?
I'm not even sure you can leverage the max 4 wounds per phase thing - the wasted damage is likely to be minimal and why is any opponent firing at a model that shouldn't see combat?
bout the only way i see the max 4 damage thing actually being a factor is if an opponent splitfires to try and avoid overdamaging Ghaz and your 4++ blocks everything so hes forced to fire at ghaz again.
Vineheart01 wrote: bout the only way i see the max 4 damage thing actually being a factor is if an opponent splitfires to try and avoid overdamaging Ghaz and your 4++ blocks everything so hes forced to fire at ghaz again.
I think this nails down the problem.
So, at least in the vehicle spam list, the AT they use on Ghaz is not being used your other stuff. They split fire and you heal him up with a painboy.
But if they just ignore ghaz, do they win? Sure he may get there with 8-12 wounds, but does that even matter? Is he dangerous enough if he gets there?
I would be surprised. I figure people just learn to ignore him, shoot your other gak, then bog Ghaz down in chaff, or lure him into a bad charge, then smite, shoot, and counter charge him to 1 round him.
Vineheart01 wrote: bout the only way i see the max 4 damage thing actually being a factor is if an opponent splitfires to try and avoid overdamaging Ghaz and your 4++ blocks everything so hes forced to fire at ghaz again.
he does have the advantage of being the only model in the game which can simultaneously be overkilled and survive!
I can see GW doing smaller boards recommended for smaller games, s more people can play at home instead of needing a big space. They would want to make it more accommodating for people with little space.
I would like to see it go to smaller armies on bigger / same size boards. I always enjoyed the smaller points games, they tended to be a little more tactical than "I can see everything, so what do I shoot"!
I have no idea why they would do it but I can see a point in tournaments.
There is a goldmine waiting to be dug out: streaming.
Watching a 3hrs match with hundreds of models on a 6*4 board is not engaging to watch and not appealing as might be a smaller table with more detailed rules about terrains.
Given how much GW Is getting interested in expanding on the net, I can immagine twich Is gonna be the next Big thing
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is my personal reasoning without any knowledge of the why of when
Emicrania wrote: I have no idea why they would do it but I can see a point in tournaments.
There is a goldmine waiting to be dug out: streaming.
Watching a 3hrs match with hundreds of models on a 6*4 board is not engaging to watch and not appealing as might be a smaller table with more detailed rules about terrains.
Given how much GW Is getting interested in expanding on the net, I can immagine twich Is gonna be the next Big thing
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is my personal reasoning without any knowledge of the why of when
Oh yeah for sure if theyre trying to make the game more tournament friendly than downsizing is a must.
Nevermind the massive imbalance in the game or severe douchyness of people gaming the system and not playing (so-to-speak), but the sheer time involved....usually after a 2k game im done for the night for gaming period. I just revert to watching tv/youtube for the rest of the day, so theres no way i could handle 3-5 games in a day lol
You guys talking about downsizing know killteam already exists? The issue with killteam is it keeps getting upsized. With elites and commanders and I’m sure soon dreads...GW is already testing that market.
I can totally believe they are chasing the holy grail of competitive streaming, and that they would consider just about anything to get there. Especially if some expensive consultant told them what they wanted to hear, that they could get there except for this little detail of the board size.
Doesn't mean I actually buy that this is happening. But it does seem just silly enough that it's plausible GW would do it.
I'm not advocating for anything here, just to be clear. I'm simply reporting a news I've been told by a VERY serious guy, which have been working with GW for years in the FAQ team.
I also believe there are many other problems that should have the priority, however after last year, where I played 6 GT and 5 RTT, I strongly believe that downsizing, at least armies, is the way to go. Especially playing hordes. For those who tried to play 200 models, on a clock, for 5 matches is 2 days, you know what your back tells you after that.
I'm all for downsizing games, I find 1750 to be much more enjoyable than 2k since there are more difficult decisions of what goes into your list (or maybe rather what doesn't) and it does somewhat speed up the game. I actually find it strange that outside of GWs own games 2k continues to be the norm..
A 4x4 board is standard at sub 1k games so you'll see them in a lot of slow -grow tournies and man is that a different game. Fast armies, such as speed freeks/ES armies in our case, are considerably stronger than at 6x4 IMO since T1 charges often become the norm and not the exception.
I just can't see a 4x4 board happening even at 1500 points since two horde armies would take up the entire board and make the game almost unplayable (I'd guess). Maybe if they had some weird rule where you played on a 6x4 board and deployed on it as such but after T1 every unit had to move out of the deployment zone and you're essentially playing at a 4x4 board. But that'd be a strange solution to say the least..
GW trying to optimize the game for tournies and the streaming of them makes sense but let's hope it's not a hamfisted decision that speeds up the game at the cost of the actual fun to be had in said game.
I wrote a thing, though Nick scrubbed my pictures referencing "The Other Guys" with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg in the opening paragraphs so my creativity has been tarnished forever.
Great write up ! I think an evil sun bonebreaka with forktress K job sent turn 1 in the opponents face along with 1+ bad moon Mega nobz might also be worth something, against an army without tooooo much antitank.
I also agree it was a great set of rules done by GW. I just wish they had given something specific to nob units to make them viable
PiñaColada wrote: I'm all for downsizing games, I find 1750 to be much more enjoyable than 2k since there are more difficult decisions of what goes into your list (or maybe rather what doesn't) and it does somewhat speed up the game. I actually find it strange that outside of GWs own games 2k continues to be the norm..
A 4x4 board is standard at sub 1k games so you'll see them in a lot of slow -grow tournies and man is that a different game. Fast armies, such as speed freeks/ES armies in our case, are considerably stronger than at 6x4 IMO since T1 charges often become the norm and not the exception.
I just can't see a 4x4 board happening even at 1500 points since two horde armies would take up the entire board and make the game almost unplayable (I'd guess). Maybe if they had some weird rule where you played on a 6x4 board and deployed on it as such but after T1 every unit had to move out of the deployment zone and you're essentially playing at a 4x4 board. But that'd be a strange solution to say the least..
GW trying to optimize the game for tournies and the streaming of them makes sense but let's hope it's not a hamfisted decision that speeds up the game at the cost of the actual fun to be had in said game.
I honestly have no experience whatsoever with smaller boards, beside a single 1k narrative match; so I can´t really say if it is good or not. But I really feel downsizing and maybe having more terrain interaction, or more terrain, or both, would increase the level of immersion necessary to bring this game to the next level.
“ Note that these datasheets, their wargear and their points values update those found in the 2018 edition of Codex: Orks, and should be used in your games of Warhammer 40,000“
Pg. 68
= all KFF from now have the rules:
„Kustom Force Field:Friendly<CLAN>units have a 5+ invulnerable save whilst they are wholly within 9" of this model.“
I wrote a thing, though Nick scrubbed my pictures referencing "The Other Guys" with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg in the opening paragraphs so my creativity has been tarnished forever.
Is there somewhere we can find you to discuss ITC specifics tactics?
Agree, it' s huge. And it opens the question about the price of KFF for other models. Is it for free, like this one? Because it could be understand that they change the KFF point price to 0 points and this should be applied across the codex.
Agree, it' s huge. And it opens the question about the price of KFF for other models. Is it for free, like this one? Because it could be understand that they change the KFF point price to 0 points and this should be applied across the codex.
This...
Removing the cost would make a lot more units viable...
Morkanaut
Mega big Mek
Wazbom blastjet
Meka dread
Buzzgrob (although a kleverist boss mega big Mek is better)
Agree, it' s huge. And it opens the question about the price of KFF for other models. Is it for free, like this one? Because it could be understand that they change the KFF point price to 0 points and this should be applied across the codex.
This...
Removing the cost would make a lot more units viable...
Morkanaut
Mega big Mek
Wazbom blastjet
Meka dread
Buzzgrob (although a kleverist boss mega big Mek is better)
Sure but on one side, there is no doubt about the change of the rules for all KFF - the rule is clear - on other side, the price drop is just a speculation. There is no line, where is written “kff = 0 points”. There is just line “big mek with kff = 55 points including wargear”. Well, we REMEBER, that the original price of bigmek is 55, but maybe, they just make big mek in this constalation cheaper and kfff is still 20p? Does it affect the price of SAG Mek? In Codex, there is Big Mek with SAG = 55p WITHOUT wargear.
In my eyes, there are 2 conclusions:
A) feth the system, kff is 20p except this specific case.
B) KFF was changed in all cases - rules + point cost together.
“ Note that these datasheets, their wargear and their points values update those found in the 2018 edition of Codex: Orks, and should be used in your games of Warhammer 40,000“
Pg. 68
= all KFF from now have the rules:
„Kustom Force Field:Friendly<CLAN>units have a 5+ invulnerable save whilst they are wholly within 9" of this model.“
No FAQ needed. It' s clear.
This conclusion is absolutely wrong, even without a FAQ. 1) "These datasheets" without doubt refers to the datasheets found in the book and not any others. It's not the first time identical rules work differently on multiple datasheets. The most prominent example is "Explodes!". 2) According to the KFF Mek's datasheet the Kustom Force Field is neither listed as wargear, nor can he take one. Therefore the wargear item "Kustom Force Field" (Codex: Orks, pg 121) cannot be found in Saga of the Beast and thus is not replaced. 3) The KFF rule on the big mek does not require you to actually be equipped with a KFF to work. If this rule would indeed overwrite all other KFFs, there is no need to pay 20 points for it. In fact, a MA big mek could provide the 5++ aura despite being equipped with a tellporta blasta. 4) Even if you were right, unless errata'ed, all the codex choices can still buy the KFF wargear item for 20 points on top of the new KFF rule, giving them both the "new" and the current KFF at the same time.
TL;DR: PA has no impact on any KFF but the one on the regular big mek. The whole datasheet is giant clusterfeth, and I have mailed GW about it. Please everyone do the same unless you feel like arguing over KFFs with your opponents for yet another edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, I just finished building my Thrakka. Awesome model, so much detail A very well done model, outside of a minor issue with one of the cables on his back, he was a breeze to build. Use the alternate pose, it just looks much better.
Makari is the opposite in every aspect. Pretty much just a regular grot, except they decided to split the grot itself into two pieces and the helmet under is foot should just have been attached to it. Oh and feth them for attaching the sprue to his armpit.
On the plus side, if you put him in the middle of his base and the helmet all the way to the side, he is pretty well balanced despite his large banner hanging off to the other side.
Jidmah: well, this is interesting way how to understand this rules. I don' t see it like this, but it ' s not important. Because both of us agree that these datasheet is a giant clusterfeth. It let' s the situation unclear in very much ways.
I agree with the strategy of sending mail to GW about the KFF. This is a centerpiece of the ork army and needs to have clear rules. This will affect army builds.
In this turbulent times, time is all we have. So this is MY personal take on the new PA:
Stratagems 1 CP Kustom Job
Use before the battle to get an additional and different Kustom Job
The only best thing of not getting new relics is: getting to pick a crapton of relics for 1 CP a piece!
1 CP Da Kleverest Boss
Use before the battle to have a BIG MEK with +1 Wounds, Attacks and change his WS to 2+. Once per battle and requires not to have Mek Boss Buzzgob
The new MA boss. Some might not like it, but this bad boy with a boost from Fist of Gork and killsaw total a whopping 6A S14 hitting on 3´s -4 D2. Our new shiny (oily?) prince.
1 CP Grot Bumper
Use during your opponent's shooting phase when a BOOMDAKKA SNAZZWAGONS is successfully wounded by an attack. That wound is considered automatically saved. Once per battle
A noice boost to an underperforming model. Funniest stratagem ever, but not competitive.
1 CP Temperamental Shokk Drive
Use in your shooting phase when a SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTAS has used his weapons. That unit immediately Advanced and the result is a 4+.
This makes the SJD jump in top tier competitive. Together with the Kustom job, you have the best fire and fade in the game.
1 CP Da Biggest Boss
Already previewed
Nothing to see here. Just take it and dance for M(G)ork. Autoinclude.
1/2 CP Klever Spanner
Already previewed
Tryhard making the burna viable. Also it feels like the whole PA is pushing away from Lootas, so maybe it is not really that necessary to bring them again.
1 CP Da Burnin' Highway
Use this in your Shooting Phase when a KUSTOM BOOSTA-BLASTA unit from your army is chosen to shoot with. UNtil the start of your next turn, change the characteristic of that unit's burna exhaust as follows: Range 10", Assault 3, Strenght 5, AP-1
Good strat that improve a good model. Range was never the issue, thought.
1 CP Flying Headbutt
Already previewed
Me love da smell of burn´d ´umies in da mornin! Just because you CAN do this, it means their castle is not safe at all. Very, very strong on a BURNA BOMBER.
1 CP Full Speed Ladz!
Use this stratagem in your Charge phase, after charging with an ORK BIKER or DEFKILLA WARTRIKE unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, add 1 to that unit's Strength characteristic.
Do you wanna make Skarboyz out of your bikers? There you go. Situational and strong, too bad our bikes are still overpriced.
1 CP Squig Bombs
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, after moving a BLITZA-BOMMER model from your army. Until the end of that phase, add 1 to the roll made for that model's boom ability.
Situational tool in case you don't wanna go all in with an airwing of bombers. Solid strat.
2 CP Speshul Shells
Use this stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a FLASH GITZ unit from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of the phase, increase the range of Snazzguns models in that unit are equipped with by 12".
Great tool to improve the biggest weakness of the coolest gitz in the galaxy. Too bad is overpriced.
1 CP Patch Up
Use this stratagem at the start of any turn. Select one MORKANAUT, GORKANAUT or STOMPA unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, that model is considered to have double the number remaining for the purpose of the damage table.
Bad one. The strength of G(M)orkanaut is in their shooting that never degrades. Those 2 extra A and M are not worth 1Cp. Okish if you wanna play a Stompa
2 CP Unstoppable Momentum
Use this stratagem in your Charge when an ORK unit from your army has finished a charge move and dealt one or more mortal wounds to an enemy unit. If that ORK unit is no longer within 1" of an enemy unit, it can immediately be chosen to charge with again.
It would be ok IF it was priced right. This is the foolproof that playtester at GW, either do not play Orks, either the test things once and go batshitcrazy with the results.
1 CP Wildfire
Use this stratagem in your Movement Phase, after selecting an enemy unit for the burna bomb ability of a BURNA-BOMMER unit from your army. Select one other enemy unit within 6" of that unit you selected. Roll one D6 for each model in that additional unit, up to a maximum of 10 dice. For each roll of 5+ that unit suffers 1 mortal wound. This stratagem is not affected by the Arsonists Subkultur.
Great stratagem that would be amazing if paired up with Arsonist, still a nice way to burn those smurf behind cover.
1 CP Dreaded Death Machine
Use this stratagem in the Fight Phase, when a DEFF DREAD unit from your army is chosen to fight with. Until the end of the phase, each time an enemy model is destroyed as a result of an attack made by that unit, you can immediately make an additional attack against the same target using the same weapon. These additional attacks cannot generate themselves any further attacks.
Do you like fighting beer can? Choppin umiez? Smoothies? Than this is the stratagem for you. One ESCC dread that makes that 8" charges is gonna shred anything short of a unit of centurions.
1 CP Hit 'Em Harder
Use this stratagem in the Fight Phase, when a MEGANOBZ unit from your army is chosen to fight with. Until the end of that phase, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of melee weapons models in that unit are equipped with.
Oh boy. This is just awesome. Primaris and 3 man unit of aggressors are now doomed. Pair this with tin Head and Boyz are back in town.
Subkultures REPLACE Clan Kultures
Pyromaniacs - ArsonistsAlready previewed
Do this in air wing with 3 Burna Bomber and see your enemy cower and cry
Huntas - Sneaky DevilsInfantry models only (excluding GRETCHIN). Whilst a model in a unit with this Subkultur is on or within a terrain feature, it gainsa 5+ invulnerable save. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in a unit with this Subkultur, while that model or any model in the target unit is on or within a terrain feature,improve the weapon's AP by 1 for that attack.
Trash. Nothing is better than this.
Boomboyz - Blow It Up!Improve the Strenght and AP characteristic of rokkit and stikkbomb weapons as well tankbusta bombs, wing missiles, kannons, killkannons, deffkannons, da boomber and lobbas equipped on models in a unit with this Subkultur by 1.
The gain of AP is not worth losing anything else you have.
Flyboyz - Crucial VelocityFLY models only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this Subkultur by a model that is more than 1" away, that unit is treated as having the benefit of the cover to its saving throw. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon against a unit with this Subkultur in a turn in which it was more than 1" away from any enemy unit at the start of the preceding Charge phase, subract 1 from hit rolls.
Extremely situational and not worth.
Grot Mobs - Cheeky ZoggersAlready previewed
The best one by far. Invulnerable grots? Check. Smashaguns with autoreroll of 1? Check. 18 Killa kanz? Check.
Tin 'Eads - Krush'n'Krump!KILLA KANS, DEFFDREADS, MEGA ARMOUR, MORKANAUTS, GORKANAUTS and STOMPAS only. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in an unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the hit roll.
The second best IMHO since you can really build a detachment around this. Might not be the best competitive, but the jury is still out.
Feral Orks - WildboyzWARBOSS, WEIRDBOY, NOBZ and BOYZ only (excluding BIKER and MEGA ARMOUR). Models in a unit with this Subkultur can pile in up to 6". When making an Advance roll for a unit with this Subkultur, roll two additional dice and discard two of the results.
Because Snakebites wasn´t bad enough.
Madboyz - FranticINFANTRY and BIKER units only (excluding GRETCHIN). At the start of each battle round, roll one D3 and consult the table below to establish what effect applies to all units with this Subkultur until the end of the battle round.
1 Moroniks: When resolving an attack that targets a unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
2 Nuttaz: Unit with this Subkultur automatically pass Morale tests.
3 Frenziers: Add 1 to the Strenght characteristic3 of models in a unit with this Subkultur.
Not even beerhammer can justify this misshapen bastard.
Kustom Jobs (1 free with a Mekboy Workshop, 1 CP for each additional Kustom Jobs and all Kustom Jobs taken must be different and if a unit that is taken in a unit is then considered as "singles" after deployment they still retake the Kustom Job given before the start of the game). Ignore the Workshop and go nuts with experiments. Best thing in PA. Basically infinite relics for 1 cp.
Squig-Hife Tyres
SPEED FREAKS (no units with FLY or named characters), BATTLEWAGON, GUNWAGON, BONEBREAKER or TRUKK. Add +2" to the unit's Move characteristic.
Ahahahah. No thanks.
Souped-Up Speshul
BOOMDAKKA SNAZZWAGON unit only. Replaces the unit's mek speshul with a 30" Assault 15 S4 AP-1 D1
Not worth it because the wagon really needs some rework.
Gyroscopic Whirligig
SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTA unit only. You can use this unit's Shokk Tunnel ability when Advancing, even if you did not roll a 4+. In additional that unit does not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of the Shokk Tunnel ability.
This is the SECOND best thing in PA. Fire and fade ork version. Stupendous!
Sizzly Rivets
KUSTOM BOOSTA BLASTA unit only. When resolving an attack made with a Rivet Kannon by a model in this unit. an umodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.
Good stratagem if you bring of those. It capitalize 2MW in average per Buggie, so yeah, don´t get too excited.
Korkscrew
MEGATRAKK SCRAPJET unit only. The first time this unit finishes a consolidation move in each Fight Phase, it can immediately fight again.
This is a trap IMHO, great in theory, terrible in execution.
Nitro-Powered Squigs
RUKKATRUKK SQUIGBUGGY unit only. When resolving an attack made by this unit's squig launcha or heavy squig launcha, add 1 to the wound roll.
Wounding is not the trouble when you throw candies at your opponent.
Gork's Roar
DEFKILLA WARTRIKE model only. Add 4" to the Range characteristic of this model's killa jet and change the Type characteristic of this burna profile to Assault 6.
IF you are running a wartrike, and probably shouldn´t on top tables, this is a great way to improve it to oneshot characters.
Da Boomer
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with killkannon. Da Boomer replaces a killkannon and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 3D6 S8 AP-2 D2
The 3d6 don´t help the consistency needed in order to be competitive. Too bad.
Zagzap
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with zzap gun only. Zagzap replaces zzap gun and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 1 S2D6 AP-3 D3
Autohitting is massive, but still is one hit, so you risk to find yourself investing more Cp than anticipated.
Forktress
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model only. The model has a Save characteristic of 3+ and a invulnerable save of 5+.
This is very good. Suddenly your battlewagon is a running, shooting, resilient platform.
Pincha
Model with grabbin' klaw only. Pincha replaces the model's grabbin' klaw and has the following profile:
Melee S+1 AP-3 D6 "Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, add 3 to the hit roll if the targets is a VEHICLE or MONSTER.
Don´t do this to yourself. Please.
Red Rolla
BONEBREAKA model only. Replace the model's BONEBREAKA Ram ability with the following: When this model makes a charge move, add 6 to its attacks characteristic until the end of the turn.
Situational since the Bonebreaka is already killing what needs killing, so it fails in redundancy. Good still.
Orkymatic Pistons
Already previewed
This is worth on maxed units, maybe is better than good, we should all try this out at least once.
Sparkly Bitz
KILLA KANS, DEFF DREADS, MORKANAUT or GORKANAUT unit only. Improve the unit's BS by 1.
Now THIS is what Im talking about. Kanz will hit on 3+, Dredd with 4 KMB 4+ and Morkanaut with Kustom ammo will ruin someone's day for sure.
Dirty Gubbinz
KILLA KANS or DEFF DREADS unit only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll.
Have a maxed unit of Kanz under a KFF and and this augment their resiliency of a notch. Problem is the other jobs are hard concurrent.
Slug Gubbin
GORKANAUT model only. Slug Gubbin replaces the model's deffstorm mega shoota and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 24 S6 AP-1 D1 "When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if the target was within 12" when this weapon was chosen to shoot with, add 1 to the hit roll.
Good but Dirty gubbinz is better, statistically speaking.
Gog Klaw
GORKANAUT or MORKANAUT model only. When rolling to determine the Damage characteristic of the crush profile of the bearer's klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork), rolls less than 4 count as 4.
Again a good one, but they both wanna shoot more than they wanna fight. If was a stratagem, that would be ace.
Blitza-Gatler
STOMPA only. This model mega gatling has a Damage characteristic of 2. In addition, when resolving the weapon's Psycho Dakka Blasta rule you can reroll the D6 once per phase.
Stompa, oh my heart... This is how it was always supposed to be. Rerolling psycho blasta is great.
Clan Psychic Powers Goffs - Bull Charge WC6
Select one friendly GOFF unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the end of the turn, charge distances of less than 7" rolled for that unit after modifiers count at 7".
This is what happens what you flunk at math but still wanna write rules.
Deathskulls - Maniacal Seizure WC7
Pick an enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and when resolving an attack made by a friendly DEATHSKULLS model against that unit, improve the AP of weapons by 1 for that attack.
Incredible power that allows you to use it, theoretically 3 times: shooting, combat, fight twice or enemy turn of cc. The range is an issue, I believe, since it requires either the enemy coming at you, either you taking midfield with the Weirdboy, which happens not that often.
Bad Moons - Gleamin' Gear WC6
Select one friendly BAD MOONS unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
Nice way to push those MANz to 1+ in the open. Nothing else really.
Snakebites - Constriction WC6
Select one enemy unit within 12" of this psyker. Until the end of your next Psychic phase, halve the Attacks characteristics of models in that unit.
Wasted power on a useless clan.
Evil Sunz - Visions in the smoke WC6
Select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of this psychic test was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can reroll the hit roll.
This is kind of good, but requires you to risk to blow your own head often than your think. Good but situational.
Blood Axes - Clever Talk WC6
Select one enemy unit visible to this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch at BLOOD AXE units from your army and cannot be chosen to fight until all eligible BLOOD AXE units from your army have done so.
Could be great if wasn´t locked in such bad Klan.
Freebooterz - Jolly Ork's Glare WC6
Select one enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, halve the Move characteristic of models in the enemy's unit and subtract 1 from Advance and Charge rolls.
Jolly good but not great. A TFC with 18". There are better ways to invest in 1CP for warphead.
Yeah agree with Jidmah on this one, the KFF the big mek has is now different RAW from the KFF everybody else gets, that sentence in the PA book doesn't change that.
God knows what was intended towards any of them, the datasheet is such a mess it's impossible to tell.
Hmm I don't know about the Hunta's. I think it might be good for a small fast attack detachment. For something like stormboyz or deffkoptas. Drop m in cover and they have a 5++ for shooting and combat. And they negate most cover saves with their ap-1. Might be good coverhunta's.
And their plusside is, they can usually jump from cover to cover.
„Kustom Jobs
On pages 76-77 you willfind new rules for Kustom Jobs. These are new upgrades available for various ORK VEHICLEunits in your army, courtesy of the genius and experimentation of Ork Meks. These rules can be used with a MEKBOY WORKSHOP or by using the Kustom job strategem found on page 72.“
tulun wrote: RAW, you can’t even take kustom jobs without a workshop. The copy writers gak the bed here lol.
How do you read that? The first paragraph of p. 76 clearly talks about taking multiple kustom jobs (plural!) via stratagem.
If you think that "one additional" means one and only one, keep in mind that the unit stratagems in Codex: Space Marine use the same wording with "one" (Veteran Intercessors, for example) and can be used multiple times.
tulun wrote: RAW, you can’t even take kustom jobs without a workshop. The copy writers gak the bed here lol.
How do you read that? The first paragraph of p. 76 clearly talks about taking multiple kustom jobs (plural!) via stratagem.
If you think that "one additional" means one and only one, keep in mind that the unit stratagems in Codex: Space Marine use the same wording with "one" (Veteran Intercessors, for example) and can be used multiple times.
It's the word additional, sadly.
So I can't take an additional of something if I never had one to begin with. It's a poorly chosen word.
Basically, the way they phrased it, you get a Kustom Job by taking a Mek Workshop (how you get one in the person place), then you can take "additional ones" by using the stratagem.
But you can't have additional of anything without having a first one. Like, I can't have an additional banana if I never had a banana in the first place.
Like I said, I'm with y'all RAI (I'd use the community posts as evidence), but someone could very easily RAW you here because GW sucks at copywriting.
Jidmah wrote: I can assure you that you can indeed add one to zero
Definition of additional:
ad·di·tion·al
/əˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.
It's not presently available, because you don't have the first one.
Like I said: gakky copywriting. All they had to actually say is. "You instead may choose to take 1 Kustom Job using this stratagem". It doesn't tie it to having one in the first place.
GW uses the words "additional" and "extra" frequently in these circumstances without actually meaning "you can only do this if you have one already." Extra relic strats, for example. Literally read, in a combined list, these arguably wouldn't allow you to take a relic from a book that your warlord isn't from. But AFAIK everyone plays it that you can.
I would say it's the same for the kustom jobs unless there's a FAQ that says otherwise.
If you have 0 jobs and you take an additional job, you have 1 job.
Page 76 is rather clear on that the stratagem is an alternative way of gaining Kustom Jobs, so there is no need to assume such a narrow interpretation.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW uses the words "additional" and "extra" frequently in these circumstances without actually meaning "you can only do this if you have one already." Extra relic strats, for example. Literally read, in a combined list, these arguably wouldn't allow you to take a relic from a book that your warlord isn't from. But AFAIK everyone plays it that you can.
I would say it's the same for the kustom jobs unless there's a FAQ that says otherwise.
I absolutely believe RAI you can circumvent it.
Relic is a bad example, though. Because you can get a relic for free by nominating your warlord. Arguably, you can't take additional relics without choosing your warlord.. not that you wouldn't.
Jidmah wrote:
If you have 0 jobs and you take an additional job, you have 1 job.
Page 76 is rather clear on that the stratagem is an alternative way of gaining Kustom Jobs, so there is no need to assume such a narrow interpretation.
I agree on RAI.
Its grammatically incoherent, which is why I've seen some people argue this is the RAW interpretation.
So like if I'm a server at a restaurant, and they are on their drink order without having ordered any, these phrases make sense:
"Would you like some cocktails?" "Would you like some water?"
These phrases don't make sense:
"Would you like some additional water?" "Would you like some extra cocktails?"
It only makes once they have ordered a drink in the first place.
But like I said, I am certain they did not intend this interpretation... just that grammatically by how they phrased it, you need to get a Kustom Job in the first place in order to get ADDITIONAL ones. Which unfortunately, is the Mek Shop.
I will not be playing this way. Just be prepared to have rules lawyers fight you.
Agree. There is no need to interpret the language more stricktly than the authors themselves.
There is absolutely no reason to believe it works this way.
That said, I'm a software developer and half my job is writing or reading specifications. "foo should add an additional field/line/object/whatever" is something that is used A LOT and it absolutely never, ever is interpreted in a way that it should not work unless another element is already present.
Tulun is correct that, semantically speaking, going from 0 to 1 isn't an additional of anything as that requires some sort of quantity to begin with. In regards to whether or not we're allowed to use kustom jobs without the mek shop the answer seems to be yes, so unless GW sees fit to screw us over for no reason in the errata (please don't) then our big meks should be plenty busy in the near future.
Do people think that footslogging ES dreads might work if we're giving them the pistons BTW? That'd give them a 10" move and statistically speaking real solid advance rolls as well. If KFFs will indeed start working in CC then they're actually somewhat tanky (if hard keep within that bubble). I'm just eager to try them out agains since one of the big issues they had (in my experience) was being bogged down by chaff, now there's a strat to help counter that.. Maybe even break out the waaagh banner nob to run alongside them?
yukishiro1 wrote: GW uses the words "additional" and "extra" frequently in these circumstances without actually meaning "you can only do this if you have one already." Extra relic strats, for example. Literally read, in a combined list, these arguably wouldn't allow you to take a relic from a book that your warlord isn't from. But AFAIK everyone plays it that you can.
I would say it's the same for the kustom jobs unless there's a FAQ that says otherwise.
I absolutely believe RAI you can circumvent it.
Relic is a bad example, though. Because you can get a relic for free by nominating your warlord. Arguably, you can't take additional relics without choosing your warlord.. not that you wouldn't.
My point was you have a list with, say, Craftworlds and Harlequins. Your Farseer is the warlord. This gives you one free relic from the Craftworlds list. But you can also spend 1cp/3cp to take "extra" relics from the Harlequin list. You don't have any Harlequin relics yet, so if you want to read things super strictly, you don't have any relics from the book so you can't take any "extra" ones from that book either. Yes, you already have a relic, but not a relic from that book/list.
But nobody plays that way. Everyone assumes by "extra" or "additional" they simply mean "one more than you would otherwise get ," not "one more than you you would otherwise get but only if you already had at least one."
Mad Hatter: Would you like a little more tea?
Alice: Well, I haven't had any yet, so I can't very well take more.
March Hare: Ah, you mean you can't very well take less.
Mad Hatter: Yes. You can always take more than nothing.
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
Got a hand on the beast as an Ebook, not preferred but eh. It's awesome that 55pts is the confirmed cost of the mek. Wonderfully cheap regardless of the KFF changes.
We'll get an FAQ soon enough, it'd be very weird for us to have 2 distinctly different rulings for the same wargear, so they'll have to decide which version they're sticking with.
RE: FAQ make sure to email your questions to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com so they can hopefully be addressed. I just sent one through asking if Ghaz is affected by Great Waaagh! (as his old model was) and if the new KFF rules apply to other KFF's.
In all seriousness the rule is clear - strat allows you to take an additional Kustom job. 1 is an additional over 0. End of discussion, surely?
The intention of the rule is clear, which is enough for me.
I sort of wish the game could be played RAW, but given GW's penchant for mistakes and long turn around times (months sometimes), 40k is probably unplayable RAW.
Hell, my friends and I ignore certain rules we think are dumb all the time. I can see the tiniest tip of your spear above a wall, so I can shoot the whole unit? Yeah, fuq dat.
A bit off the Gaz path, but still on a general topic … what advice would you give to someone wanting to run Blood Axes? Any particular go-to units that play well with the 18" gain cover rule? Anything that meshes well with the redeployment Warlord trait?
Wakshaani wrote: what advice would you give to someone wanting to run Blood Axes?
Don't?
Ba-dum-tss.
But seriously, nothing in the ork army really benefits from the cover save; everything that does benefit is much better as some other kulture instead, namely deathskulls. The other half of the kulture is the more interesting bit, and theoretically works well on anything that is powerful both in melee and shooting or anything that is good in shooting that can survive a round of melee...but that's not much in the ork army either. And it's so rare that combats even last long enough to do it...and if they do, you usually can't do it anyway because if combat is lasting that long it's probably because of a wrap and trap.
The deffkilla has that weird strat that lets you fall back and then do 1d3 mortal wounds when you fall back, so I guess in theory you could use that...but again, it's so rare that the trike will actually stay in combat long enough to do that. 90% of the time it'll either be dead or whatever it charged will be dead or fall back.
Wakshaani wrote: A bit off the Gaz path, but still on a general topic … what advice would you give to someone wanting to run Blood Axes? Any particular go-to units that play well with the 18" gain cover rule? Anything that meshes well with the redeployment Warlord trait?
The best units that can take advantage of blood axes right now are mainly stuff like megatrakk skrapjets or supa skorcha big trakks and units in trukks that want to shoot from their transports since they can all benefit from not being able to be locked in combat for shooting.
For bloodaxes someone had the idea a couple of pages back to use them for the new power, which is really good due to unlimited range. I think the idea was to deny overwatch on something and then encircle it with a bunch of deffkoptas. If the target can't move out of combat and the opponent can't kill all of them then you've kept your koptas safe and you're free to do a bunch of other gak with them, such as tagging multiple other units. Assuming that the original target actually has good overwatch you can simply leave one kopta in CC with it while the rest of your army charges it.
In that sense I think Blood Axes work. In any other sense it's tough to see the appeal.. I guess if you want to kommando spam with Snikrot there might be some play there as well.
On pages 76-77 you will find new rules
for Kustom Jobs. These are new upgrades
available for various ORK VEHICLE units
in your army, courtesy of the genius
and experimentation of Ork Meks.
These rules can be used with a MEKBOY
WORKSHOP or by using the Kustom Job
Stratagem found on page 72.
Also, related to the subject of kustom jobs. Da Boomer has 2d6 shots, I've seen it referred to as having 3d6 shots in several places, including here. Not sure how that started but looking in the book now it's clearly 2d6. Hopefully that makes the argument stronger that it works with the periscope though as it's simply a killkannon with +12" range and persicope otherwise.
Edit: But perhaps the flavor text suggests that extra range is all that we're really getting out of it? "Da Boomer can reach even more targets than a killkannon" Not sure it that's a metric that should be at all considered though..
PiñaColada wrote: Also, related to the subject of kustom jobs. Da Boomer has 2d6 shots, I've seen it referred to as having 3d6 shots in several places, including here. Not sure how that started but looking in the book now it's clearly 2d6. Hopefully that makes the argument stronger that it works with the periscope though as it's simply a killkannon with +12" range and persicope otherwise.
Edit: But perhaps the flavor text suggests that extra range is all that we're really getting out of it? "Da Boomer can reach even more targets than a killkannon" Not sure it that's a metric that should be at all considered though..
100% certain you can double shoot for a total 4d6. Ok boomer ?
Wagons of all sorts have very good upgrades, this one they won’t feth up with a faq
We unfortunately need a faq to convince everyone anyway so...
In all seriousness the rule is clear - strat allows you to take an additional Kustom job. 1 is an additional over 0. End of discussion, surely?
The intention of the rule is clear, which is enough for me.
I sort of wish the game could be played RAW, but given GW's penchant for mistakes and long turn around times (months sometimes), 40k is probably unplayable RAW.
Hell, my friends and I ignore certain rules we think are dumb all the time. I can see the tiniest tip of your spear above a wall, so I can shoot the whole unit? Yeah, fuq dat.
The is a huge difference between un-intuitive rules and unclear rules. 8th edition has a ton of rules which are unintuitive, like the morkanaut not being able to fight the marine sitting on a box in front of it.
Unclear rules are those which have multiple valid interpretations. Any interpretation that contradicts another rule or brakes the game or results in a rule not doing anything is automatically not a valid interpretation. Insisting on RAW in those cases is just a waste of everyone's time.
An example of an unclear rule would be the kustom job/periscope interaction, as both shooting twice (Vigilus FAQ for the LRBT relic) and not shooting twice(not on the periscope list) are valid outcomes.
In this case we have the dictionary interpretation of "additional" directly contradicting pg. 68 and while pg. 76 clearly describes shops and the stratagem as two different ways of getting jobs. Therefore, interpreting "additional" on the stratagem as "you already have to have one" is clearly not a valid way to read the rule.
This has absolutely nothing to do with "Rules As Intended". With only one valid interpretation on how to obtain kustom jobs, there is absolutely no need to guess the designer's intention.
addnid wrote:
PiñaColada wrote: Also, related to the subject of kustom jobs. Da Boomer has 2d6 shots, I've seen it referred to as having 3d6 shots in several places, including here. Not sure how that started but looking in the book now it's clearly 2d6. Hopefully that makes the argument stronger that it works with the periscope though as it's simply a killkannon with +12" range and persicope otherwise.
Edit: But perhaps the flavor text suggests that extra range is all that we're really getting out of it? "Da Boomer can reach even more targets than a killkannon" Not sure it that's a metric that should be at all considered though..
100% certain you can double shoot for a total 4d6. Ok boomer ?
Wagons of all sorts have very good upgrades, this one they won’t feth up with a faq
We unfortunately need a faq to convince everyone anyway so...
I agree. In case you need to convince someone, point them to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ:
Q: Does the Hammer of Sunderance Relic count as a turret
weapon for the purposes of Grinding Advance?
A: Yes. The interaction between the specialist detachment's relic and grinding advances is exactly the same as between kustom jobs and periscope.
Well if I were to play any casual games between now and the errata I don't imagine there would be any problems telling my opponent that the weapon double shooting is RAI but for any more serious games it'll be nice to have it clarified. When people said it was 3d6 shots I thought to myself that maybe 6d6 shots would've been too good, but there's not much argument for that now IMO.
I imagine it's a moot point for most people anyways seeing as not that many people will be putting in any games at all in the foreseeable future I'd wager.
Is it really RAI, or was the intention to have a named killkannon with additional range and the option to move faster (no need to move less then halve range for the periscope rule)? Of course that would completely invalidate the gunwagon.
Would love to have a 4d6 killkannon or the super Zzap gun. On the later: do you roll for strength before or after choosing a target? To me the wording suggests you can roll first and then choose a target. With 2 shots for the gunwagon it actually might be a good investment; giving you two chances for that nice 9+.
I just read the translation of PA into Spanish and couldn't help noticing that the kustom gun for the Gorkanaut overwatchs at 5+ as the rule says to add one each time the gun shoots.
Could anyone confirm that it reads the same way in English?
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I just read the translation of PA into Spanish and couldn't help noticing that the kustom gun for the Gorkanaut overwatchs at 5+ as the rule says to add one each time the gun shoots.
Could anyone confirm that it reads the same way in English?
If it adds +1 to-hit, that does NOT affect Overwatch. Overwatch explicitly ignores modifiers for the purposes of hitting.
There are some exceptions, but they are VERY CLEAR that they work on Overwatch.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I just read the translation of PA into Spanish and couldn't help noticing that the kustom gun for the Gorkanaut overwatchs at 5+ as the rule says to add one each time the gun shoots.
Could anyone confirm that it reads the same way in English?
If it adds +1 to-hit, that does NOT affect Overwatch. Overwatch explicitly ignores modifiers for the purposes of hitting.
There are some exceptions, but they are VERY CLEAR that they work on Overwatch.
This. Overwatch hits on 6+ irrespective of modifiers, both negative and positive.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I just read the translation of PA into Spanish and couldn't help noticing that the kustom gun for the Gorkanaut overwatchs at 5+ as the rule says to add one each time the gun shoots.
Could anyone confirm that it reads the same way in English?
If it adds +1 to-hit, that does NOT affect Overwatch. Overwatch explicitly ignores modifiers for the purposes of hitting.
There are some exceptions, but they are VERY CLEAR that they work on Overwatch.
This. Overwatch hits on 6+ irrespective of modifiers, both negative and positive.
Modifiers do still work, for the purposes of plasma, for instance, but the hit roll stays the same.
Though if I recall correctly, Ork plasma is a natural one, so it wouldn't even matter then.
"Abilities: When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if the target was within 12" when the bearer was chosen to shoot with, add 1 to the hit roll"
That's verbatim what it says in the book. That shouldn't apply to overwatch however since modifiers don't apply to that phase unless specifically mentioned. And most things in overwatch (/all?) aren't even modifiers but just flat out a different die roll needed. (Like iron hands hitting on 5+, they're not +1 during the phase etc)
I agree. In case you need to convince someone, point them to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ:
Q: Does the Hammer of Sunderance Relic count as a turret
weapon for the purposes of Grinding Advance?
A: Yes. The interaction between the specialist detachment's relic and grinding advances is exactly the same as between kustom jobs and periscope.
That should be enough to convince anyone, thanks Jidmah. It is litterally the same rule applied to a relic also.
Edit: heuh I lost the quote marks, I was quoting Jidmah
I think he might be onto something with his grot army, but in general it feels like he is a bit too optimistic in some things.
The good thing is, if he is right and there is a way to make Thrakka work, he is the one that will do so.
Apologies for the off topic here but why did GW feel the need to put so many damn spikes on the Snazzwagon's wheels?! I thought I had nearly finished the model and have spent the afternoon fiddling with these bloody wheels. Have mercy!
So, Hi! Recently returned to 40k player here. I've been on orks for a while, and am surprised to see so much hate for the buggies, especially in reference to the new book. I've been playing 9+ for the past few months (before the pandemic, anyway), and have found success with them. Is the disslike for them simply due to math, or have people found that their issues are borne out on the table?
Swampmist wrote: So, Hi! Recently returned to 40k player here. I've been on orks for a while, and am surprised to see so much hate for the buggies, especially in reference to the new book. I've been playing 9+ for the past few months (before the pandemic, anyway), and have found success with them. Is the disslike for them simply due to math, or have people found that their issues are borne out on the table?
They used to be a lot worse, if I recall correctly. They got some points drops, though, making them a lot better.
Swampmist wrote: So, Hi! Recently returned to 40k player here. I've been on orks for a while, and am surprised to see so much hate for the buggies, especially in reference to the new book. I've been playing 9+ for the past few months (before the pandemic, anyway), and have found success with them. Is the disslike for them simply due to math, or have people found that their issues are borne out on the table?
They used to be a lot worse, if I recall correctly. They got some points drops, though, making them a lot better.
Ah, yes, to be clear: I am talking about post-Chapter Approved 2019. The models are now at a reasonably cheap price without having lost any output. I've actually been specifically impressed by the Deathskullz Shokkjump Dragsta; its gun hitting on 3s makes it basically the perfect chasis for the deathskullz reroll, and its output has been pretty great in my experience.
Another question on buggies, for those with the ebook in hand: I know there is a stratagem to improve the Burna Exhausts of the Boosta Blasta; does that buff apply to a single exhaust, or all 4?
An Actual Englishman wrote: Apologies for the off topic here but why did GW feel the need to put so many damn spikes on the Snazzwagon's wheels?! I thought I had nearly finished the model and have spent the afternoon fiddling with these bloody wheels. Have mercy!
I cut the spikes from Dragstas wheels couple of minutes ago. And do the tread patern....
Actualy, I'm finishing the 3rd Dragsta and all of them are masively modified. I hate the sleeky formula look....
PiñaColada wrote: Do people think that footslogging ES dreads might work if we're giving them the pistons BTW? That'd give them a 10" move and statistically speaking real solid advance rolls as well. If KFFs will indeed start working in CC then they're actually somewhat tanky (if hard keep within that bubble). I'm just eager to try them out agains since one of the big issues they had (in my experience) was being bogged down by chaff, now there's a strat to help counter that.. Maybe even break out the waaagh banner nob to run alongside them?
This is exactly what I am planning on doing with my 3 ES Deff Dreads. It will save me a CP from previously using the Teleporta Stratergem and have the potential of a turn 1 charge! + a new KFF for some more survivability and I’m set!
Max: 10+7+12=29” move and charge!!
Ave: 10+5+9=24” move and charge!
PiñaColada wrote: Do people think that footslogging ES dreads might work if we're giving them the pistons BTW? That'd give them a 10" move and statistically speaking real solid advance rolls as well. If KFFs will indeed start working in CC then they're actually somewhat tanky (if hard keep within that bubble). I'm just eager to try them out agains since one of the big issues they had (in my experience) was being bogged down by chaff, now there's a strat to help counter that.. Maybe even break out the waaagh banner nob to run alongside them?
This is exactly what I am planning on doing with my 3 ES Deff Dreads. It will save me a CP from previously using the Teleporta Stratergem and have the potential of a turn 1 charge! + a new KFF for some more survivability and I’m set!
Max: 10+7+12=29” move and charge!!
Ave: 10+5+9=24” move and charge!
STOMP STOMP STOMP WAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH!
The big trouble with this (and with any close combat unit that isn't infantry and/or fly) has always been that any sort of terrain hard counters them.
Huge machine with 20 foot long arms with ripping claws? Just stand eight feet up on the second floor of a building, they can't do anything about it. Or jump from one side of a ruin to the other and back again as you lead them on a merry chase.
Swampmist wrote: So, Hi! Recently returned to 40k player here. I've been on orks for a while, and am surprised to see so much hate for the buggies, especially in reference to the new book. I've been playing 9+ for the past few months (before the pandemic, anyway), and have found success with them. Is the disslike for them simply due to math, or have people found that their issues are borne out on the table?
I'm not aware of any hate towards the buggies. They fall apart at very high competitive levels for multiple reasons, but they are pretty decent otherwise.
Swampmist wrote: So, Hi! Recently returned to 40k player here. I've been on orks for a while, and am surprised to see so much hate for the buggies, especially in reference to the new book. I've been playing 9+ for the past few months (before the pandemic, anyway), and have found success with them. Is the disslike for them simply due to math, or have people found that their issues are borne out on the table?
I'm not aware of any hate towards the buggies. They fall apart at very high competitive levels for multiple reasons, but they are pretty decent otherwise.
Could you provide some of those reasons? I haven't found that to be the case in testing, but want to get opinions from others.
Swampmist wrote: Could you provide some of those reasons? I haven't found that to be the case in testing, but want to get opinions from others.
Well, their biggest problem is that they actually die quite easily to an army that is properly equipped. Going second against an army which relies heavily on long range shooting can mean that three or more of your buggies die before they move. If you have enough high threat-hard to kill targets on the board you can mitigate this, but when my opponents ignore the naut and start shooting buggies first, I'm usually in trouble. Hopefully the burna bommers can help with this now. There also is the problem with their anti-synergy with boyz. If you run buggies, you want the entire table full of T5+ multi-wound models so stuff like bolters, tesla or lasguns have no good targets, if you run boyz you spend too many points on a profile that does not add to this target saturation. However, you need the utility effect that boyz have to restrict your opponent's movement and his ability to control the table. The only unit which can do that for buggies are warbikers, which are both CP hungry and cost way more points than they should. They also really struggle with hard targets. T8 and 3++ units are a nightmare to take down, as none of the weapons are particularly effective against them. You are basically forced to ignore them, as you don't actually have lots of units which can tarpit them for long. Last, you can't just spam 2000 points of buggies - while some of those LVO tables seem to be fairly empty, most boards I play on rarely, if ever, allow for more than two buggies to charge a single unit. Their bases are huge (same as naut) and they cannot move through ruins, so any sort of choke point can create massive issues for you.
When playing I've always uses the momentum of the list to rack up a good lead and keep my opponent busy. If someone manages to break out of this game and bull ahead, you have no real way of getting back into the game, since the army burns out quickly.
There is also the issue of ITC - while no longer as punishing to buggies as they have been, they still value staying power and board control highly, something buggies simply don't do well over extended time periods.
I think he might be onto something with his grot army, but in general it feels like he is a bit too optimistic in some things.
The good thing is, if he is right and there is a way to make Thrakka work, he is the one that will do so.
I've got some thoughts on grots that I've just dumped below. Killa Kans are fluff wise one of my favourite units and I yearn for the day they become competitive.
I've run similar lists to steves grot army in the past, some in casual games and some in experiments in prep for now cancelled tournies. From my experience Killa Kans are surprisingly tanky if you can resolve their leadership woes, a Killa Kan with a big shoota that's 35 points for 5 T5 3+ wounds. Their melee is average and great when buffed. They can kill a surprising amount of things in melee with a little encouragement. Their shooting is above average but their are half a dozen other ork units that can do the more shooting for less, it's more of a bonus feature for Kans.
Their major downside was their speed. It's way too easy for them to just get kited by faster units. They want to be stuck in melee asap so they can't get shot off by your opponents AT but best case scenario is a turn 2 charge with a turn 3 charge being more realistic.
If you wanted to buff them in anyway before Saga of the Beast you had to lean into heavy character support but I found I would regularly take 3-5 characters dedicated to supporting the Killa Kans. Even with a deffkilla wartrike they're still not fast enough and the rest of the character support adds a huge flat cost to the army. At this point you can really only justify that many characters if you have 18 kans.
I think that Saga of the Beast actually addresses these weaknesses and where it doesn't, makes it less painful to take character support. A combination of either tin heads or grot klan removes the need for a banner nob, taking one is still good but if it dies your kans will still be functional.
Orkymatic pistons is the deal maker for me. You'd still be interested in supporting your kans with a wartrike for the advance and charge but the movement of 9" alone is pretty good. The re-roll advance rule is very cool and I did some maths on it.
If you keep a 3+ then you're expecting an average advance of 4.17 inches, you have a 88.89% chance of 3" or more, and a 66.67% chance of 4" or more.
If you keep a 4+ then you're expecting an average advance of 4.25 inches, you have a 83.33% chance of 3" or more, and a 75% chance of 4" or more.
Without orkymatic pistons you have a 83.33% chance of 2" or more and 66.67% chance of 3" or more, so the re-roll clause buys you an extra inch.
This means that each turn if you advance you're most likely to have at least 12" movement with an average of ~13.2", without orkymatic pistons that number drops to most likely 8" movement with an average of 9.5".
Dirty Gubbinz and Sparkly Bitz also look good, I can see using Dirty Gubbinz on Kan squad 2 for surprisingly tanky unit that screens or sits on objectives. Sparkly Bitz looks good on Kanz but I'd argue it has a better home on a Morkanaut.
Swampmist wrote: Could you provide some of those reasons? I haven't found that to be the case in testing, but want to get opinions from others.
Well, their biggest problem is that they actually die quite easily to an army that is properly equipped. Going second against an army which relies heavily on long range shooting can mean that three or more of your buggies die before they move. If you have enough high threat-hard to kill targets on the board you can mitigate this, but when my opponents ignore the naut and start shooting buggies first, I'm usually in trouble. Hopefully the burna bommers can help with this now.
There also is the problem with their anti-synergy with boyz. If you run buggies, you want the entire table full of T5+ multi-wound models so stuff like bolters, tesla or lasguns have no good targets, if you run boyz you spend too many points on a profile that does not add to this target saturation. However, you need the utility effect that boyz have to restrict your opponent's movement and his ability to control the table. The only unit which can do that for buggies are warbikers, which are both CP hungry and cost way more points than they should.
They also really struggle with hard targets. T8 and 3++ units are a nightmare to take down, as none of the weapons are particularly effective against them. You are basically forced to ignore them, as you don't actually have lots of units which can tarpit them for long.
Last, you can't just spam 2000 points of buggies - while some of those LVO tables seem to be fairly empty, most boards I play on rarely, if ever, allow for more than two buggies to charge a single unit. Their bases are huge (same as naut) and they cannot move through ruins, so any sort of choke point can create massive issues for you.
When playing I've always uses the momentum of the list to rack up a good lead and keep my opponent busy. If someone manages to break out of this game and bull ahead, you have no real way of getting back into the game, since the army burns out quickly.
There is also the issue of ITC - while no longer as punishing to buggies as they have been, they still value staying power and board control highly, something buggies simply don't do well over extended time periods.
Alright, I appreciate the insights! I want to provide my perspective and discuss, so I'm gonna go point by point here:
1.) I absolutely agree on their fragility. as-so-far I have avoided this problem by just having more of them, but I suspect an army like the prenerf Imperial Fists Artillery Company would be a serious issue for the list.
2.) I do not know that I agree with this point. I have been running 90 gretchin (3 battallions) as the screen and board control portion of the list and have found that to be quite effective. I will agree that boyz seem a bit exspensive for that role, but I also do not believe boyz are the best troop for that role in the faction.
3.) I have actually found the buggies, particularly the Dragsta and Scrapjet, to be very effective against hard targets. While a large amount of invulns does seem to be an issue there, I have not run into many lists that have mass T8 and mass strong invulns. The only example that comes to mind is Knights, who have a 5++ unless presenting you only one knight, which I believe the list(s) can still kill. The buggy list actually has quite a lot of str8 shooting, especially with Deathskullz rerolls to help hit and wound.
4.) I think I agree with this point. The lists, when I've played them, have absolutely lacked in staying power; however, new recon and new behind enemy lines have made it relatively easy for me to rack up scenario points through speed and positioning, especially when combined with Da Jump, Shokkjump Tellyports, ect.
The terrain point I want to address separately, because it is VERY meta specific. I absolutely believe that playing upwards of 10 buggies and a wartrike (which was my first iteration of the list) would be incredibly difficult on the tables available at many gamestores, because they are majorly made up of lots of ruins of various sizes. However, having played buggies on tables built for The Golden Sprue GT (a large LVO primer event in New York that I assisted with this year), which as not just the large L ruins common at many events but also 2-3 forests\craters per table, I have actually found maneuvering the buggies to be an inconvenience, but not a major one.
To give some of my own perspective, I have found the hardest matchup for the list as-so-far has been Grey Knights, just due to how tanky Paladins are. I am going to be testing Smasha guns soon for this exact purpose, since they get around transhuman physiology, but I will fully admit that I had an incredibly hard time into GK with my original list.
IMO the terrain/board control bit is the biggest thing.
Mathhammer is all well and good and vehicles often look really strong in mathhammer but the game is actually played by moving around the board controlling objectives. The only thing that can really do this on a board with a decent amount of terrain is infantry, and, to a lesser extent, non-infantry with the fly keyword.
Gretchin are really underrated for board control...but only if they're able to run around relatively unmolested because you have enough stuff around that people aren't devoting any attention to them. The second anyone turns anything on them, they run away. And if you have an army that's all vehicles except for gretchin, a smart opponent is just going to shoot them off the board T1 and 2 with their anti-infantry guns.
I can confirm massed buggies and terrain aren't friends. Got massacred by admech at one and was seriously hampered in others at a GT last year. Especially playing over the long table edge is terrible. Even before the new PA rules hit I decided ons diversifying with a couple of flyers, dreads and another Chinork. Just to get some more freedom of movement. I also thin the Boomgun Gunwagon might be an interesting choice for this type of list.
Looking into kanz now. How do you guys handle morale for them?
The big trouble with this (and with any close combat unit that isn't infantry and/or fly) has always been that any sort of terrain hard counters them.
Huge machine with 20 foot long arms with ripping claws? Just stand eight feet up on the second floor of a building, they can't do anything about it. Or jump from one side of a ruin to the other and back again as you lead them on a merry chase.
Yay terrain in 8th edition!
Although looked down upon, maybe this is an argument for at least 1 Skorcha if you're playing that sort of list lol.
I generally like the Klaw, saw, 2x KMB Deathskull dreads for that reason, but they don't really need the extra movement like melee dreads do.
Singleton Mosby wrote: I can confirm massed buggies and terrain aren't friends. Got massacred by admech at one and was seriously hampered in others at a GT last year. Especially playing over the long table edge is terrible. Even before the new PA rules hit I decided ons diversifying with a couple of flyers, dreads and another Chinork. Just to get some more freedom of movement. I also thin the Boomgun Gunwagon might be an interesting choice for this type of list.
This honestly surprises me, if only because I've found you still get a fair amount of support with 9+ buggies in the list with the CA points drops. I suppose I have been playing with less terrain than the average though, which is good to know.
What about a massed T8 list? A few souped up gorkanauts, the buffed up gunwagons. Maybe with some deffdreads or deffkoptas to act as annoyances? It would likely be pretty shootey heavy with a decent bit of melee in a pinch. Possibly throw some bare bones nob units in the various vehicles to act as shock troops?
We know how well a primary buggy list does from the LVO and our hero/saviour who took ONLY buggies there.
He went 3-3, which is probably about right. There are worst lists and in the hands of a good player they will be OK, but they'll never be top table.
This PA opens up lots of options but I think most of them are cheeky rather than powerful. I'll have to see once I finally get back to playing but I don't think Buggies are going to go to top tier competitive. I do think they'll be fun to play with and potentially frustrating for your opponent, however.
Would Mega Nobs help with some board presence in a vehicle heavy list?
They don't really need the same sort of buffs that regular ork boys need, and anti infantry guns, albeit wounding them like normal, aren't really going to do much against a 2+, 3 wound model.
They don't tie up stuff like Boys / Warbikers can, of course.
I am not, to be clear, advocating for ONLY buggies . Orks still desperately want as many cp as they can get, and honestly grot battalions do a good job of getting there for cheap
Swampmist wrote: I am not, to be clear, advocating for ONLY buggies . Orks still desperately want as many cp as they can get, and honestly grot battalions do a good job of getting there for cheap
I gathered, but 9x10 Grots are not difficult to remove either...
Swampmist wrote: I am not, to be clear, advocating for ONLY buggies . Orks still desperately want as many cp as they can get, and honestly grot battalions do a good job of getting there for cheap
I gathered, but 9x10 Grots are not difficult to remove either...
Maybe I haven't played into enough long-renge out of los shooting, but I've found running\da jumping them from cover to cover works decently well, especially with the various versions of the list (which most often have had a squad of tank bustas, though I am looking to test a morkanaut with PA) can take out the vehicles that would snipe them.
Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.
Grimskul wrote: Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.
I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.
Grimskul wrote: Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.
I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.
Makes sense, I was originally considering doing a Grot Klan detachment purely for a mix of Mek Gunz and Killa Kanz, and another Tin Ead Detachment for just the deff dreadz/Morkanaut. In the instance that the Morkanaut gets Sparkly Bitz, what should the Kanz have? Should they get the 3" extra movement or -1 to hit vs shooting?
Grimskul wrote: Looking to do a proppa Dred Mob, especially with the kustom jobs and new subkultures we got now. Kans in particular are something I want to really try out, with the recent points drop. Assuming I give them either the Sparkly Bitz or Dirty Gubbinz, would they be better as either Tin Eadz or in the Grot Klan subkultur? Tin Eadz seem to be better if I were to focus on CC ( I assume in that case, I would give them the 3" extra movement and just big shootas, max unit of 6). If they were shooting oriented with Sparkly Bitz, with all Rokkit Launchas, Grot Klan would make more sense with 3's rerolling 1's to hit (what are we, marines?). Which one makes the most sense in a Dred Mob komposition? I would also be including a Morkanaut and Gorkanaut (with the 24 shot deffstorm megashoota relic) as well as some tellyporting Deff Dreadz.
I would lean into Tin 'Eads if you're mixing Kans with other stompy things. I would lean into Grot Mobs if you're running Kans with Mek Guns. I personally think if you have Kanz and a Morkanaut, the Morkanaut should get +1 to hit from Sparkly Bitz.
Makes sense, I was originally considering doing a Grot Klan detachment purely for a mix of Mek Gunz and Killa Kanz, and another Tin Ead Detachment for just the deff dreadz/Morkanaut. In the instance that the Morkanaut gets Sparkly Bitz, what should the Kanz have? Should they get the 3" extra movement or -1 to hit vs shooting?
I made a post earlier on rambling about it but I personally think the orkymatic pistons are what will make Killa Kanz a real threat, so that's my suggestion. I think the Morkanaut benefits more from the +1 to hit because it's got so much mode dakka than 6 Kans.
Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?
Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?
Personally, I feel that it's pretty much between the kan klaw or the saw. With the extra attack from skrag em and the saw, you can have 5 attacks base per kan, potentially making that 6 if you get warpath off on them. The damage 2 makes it so they're good against the plethora of primaris in the current meta. However, the kan klaw provides better quality stats, with better AP and more importantly S8 (which also means you would on 2's against T4 units), meaning you wound most vehicles on 3's or 4's, and against vehicles that extra AP and damage makes a big difference for when those hits goes through. As far as I remember you can mix and match so you probably want a ratio of about 1 klaw for every 2 saws.
Swampmist wrote: 1.) I absolutely agree on their fragility. as-so-far I have avoided this problem by just having more of them, but I suspect an army like the prenerf Imperial Fists Artillery Company would be a serious issue for the list.
It doesn't need to be that bad - a competitive necron list, a pure knight list with helverines can kill or marines with multiple predators or repulsor executioners can do lots of damage. Basically anything that can put out many d6 or flat 3 damage shots at long ranges is extremely damgerous.
2.) I do not know that I agree with this point. I have been running 90 gretchin (3 battallions) as the screen and board control portion of the list and have found that to be quite effective. I will agree that boyz seem a bit exspensive for that role, but I also do not believe boyz are the best troop for that role in the faction.
Boyz are not meant for board control. The whole reason for taking boyz is da jumping a unit in your opponent's face T1 and follow that up with two more units in T2. This forces them to castle up, as otherwise deep strikers can tag their valuable shooting units and isolated objective-grabbers get overrun. This is basically what keeps current highly competitive lists alive, but doesn't work well at all with buggies.
3.) I have actually found the buggies, particularly the Dragsta and Scrapjet, to be very effective against hard targets. While a large amount of invulns does seem to be an issue there, I have not run into many lists that have mass T8 and mass strong invulns. The only example that comes to mind is Knights, who have a 5++ unless presenting you only one knight, which I believe the list(s) can still kill. The buggy list actually has quite a lot of str8 shooting, especially with Deathskullz rerolls to help hit and wound.
Examples that come to my mind are leviathans, repulsors, executioners, PBC, LoC, paladins, wraiths or deathwing knights. I've also found that characters like Calgar, Typhus or Trajann are almost impossible to get rid of.
To give some of my own perspective, I have found the hardest matchup for the list as-so-far has been Grey Knights, just due to how tanky Paladins are. I am going to be testing Smasha guns soon for this exact purpose, since they get around transhuman physiology, but I will fully admit that I had an incredibly hard time into GK with my original list.
Yeah, paladins are the kind of unit buggies have no real way to deal with. I'm going to try solving this with burna bommers the next time I get to play.
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yukishiro1 wrote: Gretchin are really underrated for board control...but only if they're able to run around relatively unmolested because you have enough stuff around that people aren't devoting any attention to them. The second anyone turns anything on them, they run away. And if you have an army that's all vehicles except for gretchin, a smart opponent is just going to shoot them off the board T1 and 2 with their anti-infantry guns.
This 100% - in a recent game where I was testing lootas, I obviously went through 3 units for gretchin rather quickly. Getting rid of the other three units was quite easy for the opponent and I was unable to score (four pillars mission) afterwards. If you rely on gretchin, keeping them out of harms way is a top priority.
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cody.d. wrote: What about a massed T8 list? A few souped up gorkanauts, the buffed up gunwagons. Maybe with some deffdreads or deffkoptas to act as annoyances? It would likely be pretty shootey heavy with a decent bit of melee in a pinch. Possibly throw some bare bones nob units in the various vehicles to act as shock troops?
For orks, basically anthing with T5 or better goes into the "vehicle" defensive group. Spamming T8 is not as efficient, as the 4+ save on wagons still means they die rather quickly, while the nauts are too expensive to be spammed. I've run a wild mix of bikes, koptas, buggies, wagons, planes and a naut for multiple games now and it very much works like you imagine. I've finally got myself some MANz of my own, when I'm done painting them, I'll see how well they mesh with his list. I feel like having some deep strikers could do a lot for me.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: We know how well a primary buggy list does from the LVO and our hero/saviour who took ONLY buggies there.
He went 3-3, which is probably about right. There are worst lists and in the hands of a good player they will be OK, but they'll never be top table.
This PA opens up lots of options but I think most of them are cheeky rather than powerful. I'll have to see once I finally get back to playing but I don't think Buggies are going to go to top tier competitive. I do think they'll be fun to play with and potentially frustrating for your opponent, however.
I'm not surprise that he did though. Buggies have some great strengths and few weaknesses, but they can't do everything. The right mix of buggies and units that can mitigate their shortcomings will be vastly more powerful than buggies all the way.
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tulun wrote: Would Mega Nobs help with some board presence in a vehicle heavy list?
They don't really need the same sort of buffs that regular ork boys need, and anti infantry guns, albeit wounding them like normal, aren't really going to do much against a 2+, 3 wound model.
They don't tie up stuff like Boys / Warbikers can, of course.
I guess you can try to jump them T1 just like boyz. Maybe working in tandem with warbikers? I'm going to try this.
Great analysis, I agree with most things here. I have run kanz a couple of times simply because I still have them from 5th. Which close combat weapon(s) do you think are the best choice?
Personally, I feel that it's pretty much between the kan klaw or the saw. With the extra attack from skrag em and the saw, you can have 5 attacks base per kan, potentially making that 6 if you get warpath off on them. The damage 2 makes it so they're good against the plethora of primaris in the current meta. However, the kan klaw provides better quality stats, with better AP and more importantly S8 (which also means you would on 2's against T4 units), meaning you wound most vehicles on 3's or 4's, and against vehicles that extra AP and damage makes a big difference for when those hits goes through. As far as I remember you can mix and match so you probably want a ratio of about 1 klaw for every 2 saws.
My gut says Klaws for there is so much value in that S8 AP-3 D3 stat line and Kans already get so many attacks I wasn't sure if the extra attack that Saws provided mattered. I did the numbers and it agreed with my gut. Against a Primaris marine you would expect to land the same number of wounds with 4 Klaw attacks as you would with 5 Saw attacks, then when you factor in the improved AP from the Klaw you will expect to kill more primaris marines. With more attacks from Warpath the Klaw will be even better. The Saw will output more wounds when you have less base attacks from losing Scrag 'Em but by then you're not in an ideal situation at all.
Saw's will always yield more wounds against T3 or less but I feel like you you'll answer T3 models with something else. Saw's will also yield more wounds against T5 and T6 targets but I suspect that the Klaw's extra AP and damage will result in more kills.
So the TL;DR is Klaws at their worst are on par with or slightly behind Saws and at their best Klaws are noticeably ahead. So use Klaws all the time. I didn't bother talking about Drillas because their low strength pulls forces them to be anti infantry, and they're more or less comparable to Saws there.
Does "visions in the smoke" psychic power work on transported units (open-topped)? I was thinking a battlewagon with flash gits or the same with trukks.
So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?
BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.
Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.
PiñaColada wrote: So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?
BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.
Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.
To save you digging through it:
BS4+ with DDD is 0.583 expected hits per attack, BS4+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.938 expected hits per attack, BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.710 expected hits per attack.
PiñaColada wrote: So I'm sure someone has already done the math but how different is BS4+ with DDD and then BS4+ & BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD?
BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is just tankbusta stats so surely that's been calculated, also with and without adding more dakka. A morkanaut with sparkly bitz, visions in the smoke, more dakka and kustom ammo should be able to do a massive amount of damage.
Hopefully the gitbonez will work on the new psychic powers as that's not RAW right now. Visions being WC9 on the big stuff is pretty rough otherwise.
To save you digging through it:
BS4+ with DDD is 0.583 expected hits per attack, BS4+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.938 expected hits per attack, BS5+ with full rerolls and DDD is 0.710 expected hits per attack.
Thanks, I really appreciate it Quackzo! How much would "more dakka" alter those numbers do you think? Also, BS4+ with DDD and rerolls is insanely accurate, I expected it to be in the 80's and not mid 90's.
Edit: NVM, I'm an idiot as "more dakka" is included in the link you've provided
DDD is a flat 16.66% increase in shots (and thus 16.66% increase on hits) on every ork, not matter what you re-roll or what your BS is.
Moar dakka increases this to 33.33%, or a 14.29% increase over regular DDD.
Kustom ammo is obviously a 100% increase in hits
BS4+ is another 16.66% increase
The only tricky one are the re-rolls, for BS4+, it's a 50% increase, for BS5+ it's 18.52%.
So if you drop everything on one naut, you basically have 1.3333x2.0x1.1666x1.5 = 4.666 times of whatever your regular mathhammer would say about any of it's guns.
Sparkly Bitz on a mork legitimately scares my roommates lol. I usually run that thing anyway and most of the time (some games it just looks scary) it deletes things with ease. Adding +1 to hit...my evil grin is grinch-like right now lol
Would be even more hilarious though if they goofed up and didnt mention it only works on the walkers. Its a modifier, so open-topped would transfer it lol. Sadly they were wise enough to catch that one
Theres just so much crap with kustom jobs i wanna do i am having a hard time figuring out what to do first. I dont have the book sadly (i am NOT buying the PDF and the Book, i hate PDFs) but really all im interested in i can easily remember and my roommates are aware of, and theyre kinda the only people i can play atm anyway I would be upset about no new relics because thats really weird we didnt even get 1 new relic....but our vehicles have more an impact than characters do most of the time anyway so this is better.
Jidmah wrote: DDD is a flat 16.66% increase in shots (and thus 16.66% increase on hits) on every ork, not matter what you re-roll or what your BS is.
Moar dakka increases this to 33.33%, or a 14.29% increase over regular DDD.
Kustom ammo is obviously a 100% increase in hits
BS4+ is another 16.66% increase
The only tricky one are the re-rolls, for BS4+, it's a 50% increase, for BS5+ it's 18.52%.
So if you drop everything on one naut, you basically have 1.3333x2.0x1.1666x1.5 = 4.666 times of whatever your regular mathhammer would say about any of it's guns.
Thanks, that breakdown helps me process this for my math-atrophied mind. I will say that the bolded sentence above really showcases how much support you could give that naut. Sure Orks start out from a terrible position but that multiplier is no joke! Even without visions a BS4+ morkanaut will still be pretty decent and hopefully the spell still went off at WC6-8 so you can buff like a buggy/KMK and at least marginally help out. Makes me want to bring out some big boyz again, that's for sure
if it halved charge distances, sure that'd be great.
But at 18" i suspect it wont stop charges at all unless you got them AT 18", where 6-7" movement still puts them at 11-12" so they couldnt realistically make that charge.
I really dont see it being that useful. Especially since really all the weirdboy is gonna be 18" away from is stuff that DS'd right next to him, and if theyre under 10" away i dont see it helping at all.
It doesn’t. It halves move but you only subtract one from the charge and advance roll.
If the range of the power was more like 24” it might be better. I think you’d have to line stuff up perfectly. And it’ll largely depend if the unit can advance and charge.
Infantry charges might be hosed but I’m not sure we’re worried about those.
I'd see it more of a "You aint gettin' away from me!" ability more than an anti-charge.
Which, except for footslogging infantry (that we strive to NOT do), do we need that? not really imo
Gunwagons have 16 wounds so it would be significantly easier to get that power off for them than it would a naut or stompa.
The WC9 for 18+ wound models is kinda silly. Even with all those rerolls and the souped up gatling gun on the stompa i dont think it would be that amazing lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Gunwagons have 16 wounds so it would be significantly easier to get that power off for them than it would a naut or stompa.
The WC9 for 18+ wound models is kinda silly. Even with all those rerolls and the souped up gatling gun on the stompa i dont think it would be that amazing lol.
Indeed. I'm looking at the Gunwagon as the much more reliable unit to receive the Smokey Visions.
I've mathhammered it without dakka dakka dakka and from what I can tell a double firing Morkanaut with Visions from the Smoke and BS4+ is not killing a Knight in one turn.
36 shots
12 hits and 24 rerolls for 20 hits, 10 of which explode
10 shots get 5/9 hits, for (50/9)+20
Or about 25 and a half hits.
So yes, just barely better than 3+!
Yeah, it's crazy good. On the gunwagon, you average like 10 STR 8 AP-2 D2 hits a turn at 3 feet. fething devastating at 155 points.
Also crazy that we should think of Tankbustas this exact same way... they effective hit on a 3+ against vehicles, and ~40% of the time if they dip down to a 6+. I am so stoked to try out boom boys. Every tankbusta gets equipped with the rough equivalent of a LASCANNON. Yes please.
It's a lot of points but assuming da boomer works with the periscope then I'm thinking of trying both a gunwagon and a morkanaut. You roll a 6,7 or 8 on your "visions"? Onto the gunwagon. Roll a 9+? Cowabunga it is
@jidmah as I am currently low on time I won't be quoting you in full, but I appreciate the response. Your points make more sense on repost, but I do want to contest point 3. I've actually found PBC's specifically to be quite killable for the list due to the amount of str8 that comes on the buggies, especially combined with 3 Shokk attakk guns. Repulsors of both varieties lack an invuln, so are also not that difficult to kill. I absolutely agree on paladins thoughm, and am also looking at testing smasha guns and\or burna bombers as a potential answer.
Yeah. Say you field him in a mech spam list. Your opponent should just ignore him right? Does it matter if he gets close with max wounds?
Well he does easily one-round a castellan, and he out-duels all the primarchs. I could see a world where ghaz+morka+gorka is your big wave of deliverables, effectively being cheap knights, and the rest of your list is whatever works best to deliver those.
I honestly think he'd be borderline viable in the right list if he was infantry. Being a monster really relegates him to a fluffy choice unless you play on boards that are pretty much totally empty of terrain. His gun is total junk, so terrain just hard counters him.
Well he does easily one-round a castellan, and he out-duels all the primarchs. I could see a world where ghaz+morka+gorka is your big wave of deliverables, effectively being cheap knights, and the rest of your list is whatever works best to deliver those.
I'll probably start brewing some lists with Ghaz just for curiosities sake. I am wondering what that optimal soup is to give him a remote fighting chance.
A Mork, Gork, and Ghaz + Painboy (required) is 971 points alone. I think you probably can't afford triple bat here, so you gotta do bat, bat, 1 CP detachment. After that, I assume you stack some buggies, dreads, maybe some MANz?
Question for me: What is the optimal detachment to slot that painboy in? It would almost be nice to do a Goff Vanguard detachment, but elites don't really mesh with a mech spam outside of MANz... which are very expensive. You could do mixed clan, I guess, too, and just take like a spearhead with some Smashas.
yukishiro1 wrote: I honestly think he'd be borderline viable in the right list if he was infantry. Being a monster really relegates him to a fluffy choice unless you play on boards that are pretty much totally empty of terrain. His gun is total junk, so terrain just hard counters him.
It relegates him to getting deep struck by Tellyporta, certainly. I don't think most boards are nothing but walled ruins you can't move around though, so I feel like he's still fine
Yeah, but you gotta remember he has a huge base, which makes DSing him to the place you want more difficult than you'd think. A smart opponent is going to use the terrain that does exist plus screening to deny you the opportunity to DS him into a position to threaten anything worth killing. So you're probably looking at a very sub-optimal charge if you want to bring him in T2...and then on top of that more than 1/3 of the time your charge fails, meaning he doesn't do anything until T3, and may not even get a decent charge then if your opponent just kites away from him or feeds him some crap unit.
I mean like using my eldar list I can feed him a 55 point 5 man harlequin troupe...and because of their 4++ invuln saves, on average he doesn't even kill the unit in a round, even with no CP or psychic support at all. Or the 12-man unit can happily tarpit him the rest of the game; for 1CP and with the -1 to wound from the seer if he kills 2 a round he's doing better than the mathhammer average. They'd actually probably prefer sitting in combat with him to being out there to be shot at by the rest of your army.
I think is terrible ATM, however I'm certain that his place is never gonna be to be DS and charge. That is just foolish. If you wanna DS him, you LL drop him midfield in cover , in order to position him as counter charge and secure a board control.
Give it 2 months and someone will go 5-0 with him in some list.
Yeah I actually agree, I thought he was tellyporta-charge only at first, but the more I think about it, the more I think that's a trap. He just doesn't do enough damage to make that viable, unless your opponent is dumb enough to let him DS into a knight or something like that. And even against a knight...he costs double what a smash captain does, for less damage potential and vastly less maneuverability. That's pretty terrible.
If he had a sweep it'd be different, but as is, he's just too easy to tarpit with cheap chaff to make that work IMO.
That's why I don't really see the synergy with a mech list. I think the only way he works is with infantry around him to deny your opponent the ability to kite or feed. If you instead have a bunch of other big bulky vehicles that's going to do the opposite and end up getting in his way and making your opponent's job of avoiding him even easier.
And then we're back to the old problem that a warboss on a bike with the 1CP strat and DKK does more damage, is much more mobile, can't be shot at, and costs half as much.
Any screen, even Primaris Marines, make him utterly impotent for the cost. 5/6/7 attacks is simply not enough to dent any chaff and if he doesn't get into combat with his preferred targets he will never make his points back.
Also he only moves 7" MAX.
I'm going to say it again for those of you at the back of the class. 7 INCHES MOVE MAX. There is no way to advance and charge him, nor can he leave combat and charge.
Emicrania wrote: I think is terrible ATM, however I'm certain that his place is never gonna be to be DS and charge. That is just foolish. If you wanna DS him, you LL drop him midfield in cover , in order to position him as counter charge and secure a board control.
Give it 2 months and someone will go 5-0 with him in some list.
Do you think it’ll be a Green tide or some kind of mech jank?
If green tide... wouldn’t a regular boss be better?
If green tide... wouldn’t a regular boss be better?
Yes, and that's the fundamental problem, which the 1CP strat just makes even worse.
I mean maybe in a goff list where you can take advantage of the extra attacks..but goffs suck, and I don't see Ghaz making them enough better to overcome their basic badness.
I'm going to say it again for those of you at the back of the class. 7 INCHES MOVE MAX. There is no way to advance and charge him, nor can he leave combat and charge.
Good luck getting him to that Castellan.
And that is why you tellyporta him every time.
As for him not having enough attacks, I absolutely believe he should have a supporting weirdboy, and he probably needs to be in a goff detachment for the additional hits.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's why I don't really see the synergy with a mech list. I think the only way he works is with infantry around him to deny your opponent the ability to kite or feed. If you instead have a bunch of other big bulky vehicles that's going to do the opposite and end up getting in his way and making your opponent's job of avoiding him even easier.
And then we're back to the old problem that a warboss on a bike with the 1CP strat and DKK does more damage, is much more mobile, can't be shot at, and costs half as much.
His wound mechanic really works well with vehicles, though, which is probably where he's actually going to shine.
As a general tenant, it's bad to mix infantry and mech, but if we need to protect Ghaz.. could we use something like Evil Sun Kommandos? They start in deep strike, and if Ghaz gets swamped by bs, they countercharge turn 2 or 3.
I'm going to say it again for those of you at the back of the class. 7 INCHES MOVE MAX. There is no way to advance and charge him, nor can he leave combat and charge.
Good luck getting him to that Castellan.
And that is why you tellyporta him every time.
As for him not having enough attacks, I absolutely believe he should have a supporting weirdboy, and he probably needs to be in a goff detachment for the additional hits.
That feels a lot like throwing good points after bad.
Visions also isn't too bad on warbikers - it's re-rolls for the entire turn, so both shooting and charging.
Now, if only they would cost a little less...
Worst case, you can always throw it on a scrapjet.
Jidmah wrote: Visions also isn't too bad on warbikers - it's re-rolls for the entire turn, so both shooting and charging.
Now, if only they would cost a little less...
Worst case, you can always throw it on a scrapjet.
Do you mean Deff koptas? Cause it only works on vehicles
Visions is vehicle only so it wouldnt work on bikers.
It would work on Deffkoptas though. 5 deffkoptas w/ 10 rokkits among them hitting on 4s with all rerolls sounds nifty (give'm Sparkly Bitz for 4+ bs)
Vineheart01 wrote: Visions is vehicle only so it wouldnt work on bikers.
It would work on Deffkoptas though. 5 deffkoptas w/ 10 rokkits among them hitting on 4s with all rerolls sounds nifty (give'm Sparkly Bitz for 4+ bs)
Sparkly bits can’t be taken by koptas. You could get em to BS4 against flying units though.
Hmm...thought occurred to me. Unit with a wound characteristic of 18+....i would assume thats specifically looking at the stat and not the unit as a whole? If so, Killakanz would love it. Unless it was misquoted a few pages back (i dont have the book sadly, stupid quarantine) it says HITS not shooting specifically. So a killakanz unit would be doubletapping that bonus, rerolling their rokkits and rerolling their klaw attacks in the same round. Dreads and nauts would as well of course but Dreads split up so the yield is much weaker and nauts are 18wounds so its much harder to get off w/o a mass of boyz around.
Hmm...thought occurred to me. Unit with a wound characteristic of 18+....i would assume thats specifically looking at the stat and not the unit as a whole?
If so, Killakanz would love it. Unless it was misquoted a few pages back (i dont have the book sadly, stupid quarantine) it says HITS not shooting specifically. So a killakanz unit would be doubletapping that bonus, rerolling their rokkits and rerolling their klaw attacks in the same round.
It's all hits, so yeah, you could re-roll melee as well. And there's nothing that seems to stop you from targeting Killa Kans.
As stated, even advancing KKs hit effectively on a 3+ (-1 to hit), so it wouldn't be terrible.
I do think what PinaColada said is actually a good idea if you try visions out -- Have multiple targets that are both WC6 and WC9 nearby. It doesn't say you TARGET a unit before casting... you cast then target a unit that meets the casting criteria.
So you could fish for that 9+, but worse comes to worse, you buff a Gunwagon, Megatrakk, Deff Kopta Unit, Killa Kan unit (etc).
Emicrania wrote: I think is terrible ATM, however I'm certain that his place is never gonna be to be DS and charge. That is just foolish. If you wanna DS him, you LL drop him midfield in cover , in order to position him as counter charge and secure a board control.
Give it 2 months and someone will go 5-0 with him in some list.
Do you think it’ll be a Green tide or some kind of mech jank?
If green tide... wouldn’t a regular boss be better?
Green tide would been a surprise. My bet is on a veichle heavy or a MANz heavy + Lootas/FG or a mix of 3 planes + 18 Smashaguns + infantry.
You know what sucks the most ?
I love the model. Is just exactly what I wanted him to look like, maybe not the pose but people are already fixing it.
Is just the rules are SO limiting that anything is better than him. Still he will see play.
Hell I LL proxy him asap as soon this mess is over
Emicrania wrote: I think is terrible ATM, however I'm certain that his place is never gonna be to be DS and charge. That is just foolish. If you wanna DS him, you LL drop him midfield in cover , in order to position him as counter charge and secure a board control.
Give it 2 months and someone will go 5-0 with him in some list.
Do you think it’ll be a Green tide or some kind of mech jank?
If green tide... wouldn’t a regular boss be better?
I'm still new and I've been trying to find it in the codex. Why can't he advance or charge? I'm sure it has something to do with the monster trait, but I can't find why.
Green tide would been a surprise. My bet is on a veichle heavy or a MANz heavy + Lootas/FG or a mix of 3 planes + 18 Smashaguns + infantry.
You know what sucks the most ?
I love the model. Is just exactly what I wanted him to look like, maybe not the pose but people are already fixing it.
Is just the rules are SO limiting that anything is better than him. Still he will see play.
Hell I LL proxy him asap as soon this mess is over
100% with you. Ghaz is probably in the running for the best model they've made.
It would be nice if there was a way of fielding him without feeling like you're just gimping yourself.
Emicrania wrote: Because WAAAGH works on infantry only, unfortunately.
But he can still advance or charge like a normal unit can he not?
Yes, but the Waaagh! aura of warbosses and wartrakks usually allows orks to do both, giving them a speed boost to cross the last few inches.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: I love the model. Is just exactly what I wanted him to look like, maybe not the pose but people are already fixing it.
I'm currently building him, the alternative pose is much better, and he has no problems standing on his own without the scrap metal base decoration. You can just have him stand on his base with weapons to his side and no "dynamic posing" whatsoever.
I also left off those bullet casings flying out of Mork's Roar, since I'm going to break them off eventually anyways.
Green tide would been a surprise. My bet is on a veichle heavy or a MANz heavy + Lootas/FG or a mix of 3 planes + 18 Smashaguns + infantry.
You know what sucks the most ?
I love the model. Is just exactly what I wanted him to look like, maybe not the pose but people are already fixing it.
Is just the rules are SO limiting that anything is better than him. Still he will see play.
Hell I LL proxy him asap as soon this mess is over
100% with you. Ghaz is probably in the running for the best model they've made.
It would be nice if there was a way of fielding him without feeling like you're just gimping yourself.
If they'd fix at least the WAAAGH that would do something.
Emicrania wrote: Because WAAAGH works on infantry only, unfortunately.
But he can still advance or charge like a normal unit can he not?
Yes, but the Waaagh! aura of warbosses and wartrakks usually allows orks to do both, giving them a speed boost to cross the last few inches.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: I love the model. Is just exactly what I wanted him to look like, maybe not the pose but people are already fixing it.
I'm currently building him, the alternative pose is much better, and he has no problems standing on his own without the scrap metal base decoration. You can just have him stand on his base with weapons to his side and no "dynamic posing" whatsoever.
I also left off those bullet casings flying out of Mork's Roar, since I'm going to break them off eventually anyways.
I honestly never use those casing. They break ALWAYS.
How big you reckon he is? Kills kan size or deff dredd?
So i was experimenting today with how competitive Ghaz is against my current narrative campaign list. I decided to screw around a bit and gave the +1BS upgrade to my Morkanaut for snitz and giggles.....
I am probably playing this wrong, but I was playing freebootas and killed an enemy unit with my mek gunz which procs the bonus which meant my Morkanaut was hitting on 3s.....Talk about fething scary!
Ohh, and Ghaz never lived past 2nd turn assault phase and never once managed to actually hit anyone except with his ranged weapon.
SemperMortis wrote: So i was experimenting today with how competitive Ghaz is against my current narrative campaign list. I decided to screw around a bit and gave the +1BS upgrade to my Morkanaut for snitz and giggles.....
I am probably playing this wrong, but I was playing freebootas and killed an enemy unit with my mek gunz which procs the bonus which meant my Morkanaut was hitting on 3s.....Talk about fething scary!
Ohh, and Ghaz never lived past 2nd turn assault phase and never once managed to actually hit anyone except with his ranged weapon.
Nope, you played it right, Freebootaz morka hits on 3s and can be procced by the mek gunz
SemperMortis wrote: So i was experimenting today with how competitive Ghaz is against my current narrative campaign list. I decided to screw around a bit and gave the +1BS upgrade to my Morkanaut for snitz and giggles.....
I am probably playing this wrong, but I was playing freebootas and killed an enemy unit with my mek gunz which procs the bonus which meant my Morkanaut was hitting on 3s.....Talk about fething scary!
Ohh, and Ghaz never lived past 2nd turn assault phase and never once managed to actually hit anyone except with his ranged weapon.
Nope, you played it right, Freebootaz morka hits on 3s and can be procced by the mek gunz
I think my friends in the narrative campaign are going to be a bit salty when turn 1 my Morkanaut and my Big Mek with SSAG are hitting on 3s (Big mek has a campaign buff which increases his baseline BS by +1)
At the moment the games are 1k each with the attacker of a planet getting an extra 250pts but the defender getting all advantages on where terrain and setup.
SemperMortis wrote: So i was experimenting today with how competitive Ghaz is against my current narrative campaign list. I decided to screw around a bit and gave the +1BS upgrade to my Morkanaut for snitz and giggles.....
I am probably playing this wrong, but I was playing freebootas and killed an enemy unit with my mek gunz which procs the bonus which meant my Morkanaut was hitting on 3s.....Talk about fething scary!
Ohh, and Ghaz never lived past 2nd turn assault phase and never once managed to actually hit anyone except with his ranged weapon.
And then you use the Dreadmob Kustom ammo stratagem to fire all of his dakka again! Also works decently with the slug gubbins Gorkanaught.
But yeah, I think Freebootaz has a bit of potential at the moment, will be modifying my three naught list, maybe switch out the second gork for some of the gunwagons.
SemperMortis wrote: So i was experimenting today with how competitive Ghaz is against my current narrative campaign list. I decided to screw around a bit and gave the +1BS upgrade to my Morkanaut for snitz and giggles.....
I am probably playing this wrong, but I was playing freebootas and killed an enemy unit with my mek gunz which procs the bonus which meant my Morkanaut was hitting on 3s.....Talk about fething scary!
Ohh, and Ghaz never lived past 2nd turn assault phase and never once managed to actually hit anyone except with his ranged weapon.
And then you use the Dreadmob Kustom ammo stratagem to fire all of his dakka again! Also works decently with the slug gubbins Gorkanaught.
But yeah, I think Freebootaz has a bit of potential at the moment, will be modifying my three naught list, maybe switch out the second gork for some of the gunwagons.
I started messing around with full freebootaz today; Looking at brigade (mostly for cp)+flyer wing.
It's probably one of my fave list styles at the moment. But it does really beg for an all in approach. Either have most of your army Freebootaz or it's sorta wasted. Upon saying that i'm toying with the idea of 2 grot detachments, maybe have a few smasha guns to soften things up, then throw the gunwagon with it's auto hitting zapzap to finish off a weakened unit. Trying to push in a burna bommba to likewise weaken some units, wound some characters etc etc.
cody.d. wrote: It's probably one of my fave list styles at the moment. But it does really beg for an all in approach. Either have most of your army Freebootaz or it's sorta wasted. Upon saying that i'm toying with the idea of 2 grot detachments, maybe have a few smasha guns to soften things up, then throw the gunwagon with it's auto hitting zapzap to finish off a weakened unit. Trying to push in a burna bommba to likewise weaken some units, wound some characters etc etc.
I honestly think a flyer wing of pyromaniac burna bombas is a legit detachment in basically any ork list. I'm looking at Wazboom+double Dakkajet tho, to try and have some "reach and out poke" threat at softer units to proc the buff with.
Maybe, but multiple bommas of any sort feels sort of niche. With MSU or horde being the 2 ends of the spectrum there's only a handful of targets a bomma can really shine outside of it's flaming explosive headbutt.
Maybe, but getting to 3s to mortal means there's a lot more value in just getting 10 dice, even against a horde. 3 bommas flying over 30 boyz is gonna kill quite a few.
But is that points efficient? Surely any unit that can be taken in sizes greater than 10 would be flimsy enough to drop to either shoota boyz or a dakka jet. Don't get me wrong. If the opponent rocks up with a few units of stormshield deathwatch you'll be laughing your ass to the bank, but most other targets those mortal wounds will feel kinda meh.
Honestly I'm looking at them for grey knight paladins specifically, who tend to come in units of 10. But yeah, I think if you include all of their shooting on top they probably come out to reasonably points efficient
Hoping to see some GK in the next tourney I go to every month or so. Would be interesting to see how well they function and how well orks do against their various shenanigans.
I played Freeboterz ad nothing but freeboterz for 6 months last year. Is not that easy to proc that +1, let me tell you.
And if you miss, you are playing klanless for a turn, wich sucks hard.
Anyone feel that we have all the tools to be competitive now on a meta level?
We have a way to semi spam MW with Weirdboys and Burna Bombers. We now have a fair few ways to take on heavy armour. Horde has never been an issue particularly. We can even tailor our army at the game start with kustom jobs, which is huge.
Not saying we're going to be top tier competitive for certain but we definitely have answers to a lot of questions the meta lists ask I think. It'll be interesting to see what happens but I reckon we've got a real solid chance to be one of the best factions out there, with all our tricks and shenanigans from the dex and Saga of the Wolf. My Orky brain is spinning here with all the potential combos that might not be 'possessed bomb' level destructive but will irritate opponents no end.
cody.d. wrote: It's probably one of my fave list styles at the moment. But it does really beg for an all in approach. Either have most of your army Freebootaz or it's sorta wasted. Upon saying that i'm toying with the idea of 2 grot detachments, maybe have a few smasha guns to soften things up, then throw the gunwagon with it's auto hitting zapzap to finish off a weakened unit. Trying to push in a burna bommba to likewise weaken some units, wound some characters etc etc.
Freebootas are kind of an all or nothing army like you said, and those grot detachments, while alluring are a trap unless they either change the rules for the subkultures OR they allow you to keep the keyword for the kulture just not the benefits. IE you can't get the +1 to hit but you can still proc it since you are still a freeboota. my first thought upon seeing the grot rules was "My mek guns are going to get even better!" but if they can't proc the +1 to hit for everything else its kind of a waste, and while rerolling 1s is good for them, its not game breaking. 1/6th chance to get a 1/2 chance to hit. likewise the invuln isn't that amazing either, at most its going to be annoying to my opponents, but generally, when they want a mek gun dead...it dies.
At the moment in my Freeboota list i use mek gunz to pick off weak units to proc the +1 to hit. If my opponent brings a flimsy walker or a rhino or weak transport i'll pop it. otherwise I rely on my scrapjets using their big shootas to gun down light infantry.
Emicrania wrote: I played Freeboterz ad nothing but freeboterz for 6 months last year. Is not that easy to proc that +1, let me tell you.
And if you miss, you are playing klanless for a turn, wich sucks hard.
I don't know. I haven't had too much of a hard time getting that +1 to proc. Sometimes its better to overkill something to get that +1 and get better chance of killing other things. But against certain armies....absolutely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, and I will be utilizing the Corkscrew buff next time i play. My Scrapjets love getting into CC with weak opponents.
i feel like until i get the actual model i could easily proxy this as ghaz...
Spoiler:
Like...10 years ago a friend threw a then-useless hellbrute at me and said "orkify it" so i did lol. So disturbingly crude as i was just getting into the hobby, ive been toying the idea of stripping the paint and rebuilding the gun for awhile.
We have a way to semi spam MW with Weirdboys and Burna Bombers. We now have a fair few ways to take on heavy armour. Horde has never been an issue particularly. We can even tailor our army at the game start with kustom jobs, which is huge.
Not saying we're going to be top tier competitive for certain but we definitely have answers to a lot of questions the meta lists ask I think. It'll be interesting to see what happens but I reckon we've got a real solid chance to be one of the best factions out there, with all our tricks and shenanigans from the dex and Saga of the Wolf. My Orky brain is spinning here with all the potential combos that might not be 'possessed bomb' level destructive but will irritate opponents no end.
I definitely believe orks have the very real chance to compete, though I believe doing so will be more similar to chaos than marines\gk\ect. We have a lot of builds imo, but each answers a different part of the meta's skews. its gonna take time and iteration to find the best tools for each job, and to build the most effective list with said tools.
Saying all this, I think orks have the chance to be incredibly strong in a Team environment, where the breadth of tools and builds can be tailored to a specific job.
I definitely believe orks have the very real chance to compete, though I believe doing so will be more similar to chaos than marines\gk\ect. We have a lot of builds imo, but each answers a different part of the meta's skews. its gonna take time and iteration to find the best tools for each job, and to build the most effective list with said tools.
Saying all this, I think orks have the chance to be incredibly strong in a Team environment, where the breadth of tools and builds can be tailored to a specific job.
Yeah I think it largely depends on the meta. Space Marines losing representation should help, but RG is still probably top dog, and Centurion spam smashes Orks. Eldar flyers seems to be making a comeback too, but I'm not sure that list is that bad for us.
The main problem I see is that the current green tide list doesn't mesh that well with planes -- if you go first, sure, they'll be annoying, but hiding them will be difficult, and if they are the only vehicles on the table, they won't last if you go second.
Can we really afford to mix vehicles and light infantry will be the question, as that does break a basic tenant of list building. I'm not sure Orks can win ITC with a vehicle spam at this time, but maybe I'm wrong.
Eldar planes have never been that bad for orks because anything more than a -1 to hit is usually wasted, and they really don't do much to horde infantry anyway. If you run green tide you can usually just let all the planes shoot you the whole game and still comfortably win on objectives if you table to the rest of the army.
I guess it might actually be worse now if people start going in on the BS4 stuff in a vehicle-heavy list.
Emicrania wrote: How big you reckon he is? Kills kan size or deff dredd?
See below. If you want, I can take a picture next to a kan and deff dread tomorrow. Makari is about he size of a regular grot, and on a 28mm base.
Holy cannoli that´s big! Yes please, I want to be accurate with my proxy.
Here you go - the bases are aligned so the middle of each is on a single line.
Funny enough, the ork inside that huge armor doesn't seem to be much bigger than the AOBR boss.
That's one certified big boi! But it's good to know that if you wanted to proxy him a deff dread wouldn't be too far off it seems.. Is he on an 80 or 90mm base?
). If we're unlucky, someone important will be sick or can't get their 
Killa Klaw is also a possibility but I've personally always liked my beatsticks tanky.
