Emicrania wrote: How big you reckon he is? Kills kan size or deff dredd?
See below. If you want, I can take a picture next to a kan and deff dread tomorrow. Makari is about he size of a regular grot, and on a 28mm base.
Holy cannoli that´s big! Yes please, I want to be accurate with my proxy.
Here you go - the bases are aligned so the middle of each is on a single line.
Funny enough, the ork inside that huge armor doesn't seem to be much bigger than the AOBR boss.
Ok, I´m sold. I´ll swear I´ll make it work. Now I need some SW to share a box or some sketchy reseller on ebay to fulfil my dream.
Its an 80m base. He actually looked smaller in my hand than I would of thought until I placed him next to some other figures, then you really see how big it is.
cody.d. wrote: It's probably one of my fave list styles at the moment. But it does really beg for an all in approach. Either have most of your army Freebootaz or it's sorta wasted. Upon saying that i'm toying with the idea of 2 grot detachments, maybe have a few smasha guns to soften things up, then throw the gunwagon with it's auto hitting zapzap to finish off a weakened unit. Trying to push in a burna bommba to likewise weaken some units, wound some characters etc etc.
Freebootas are kind of an all or nothing army like you said, and those grot detachments, while alluring are a trap unless they either change the rules for the subkultures OR they allow you to keep the keyword for the kulture just not the benefits. IE you can't get the +1 to hit but you can still proc it since you are still a freeboota. my first thought upon seeing the grot rules was "My mek guns are going to get even better!" but if they can't proc the +1 to hit for everything else its kind of a waste, and while rerolling 1s is good for them, its not game breaking. 1/6th chance to get a 1/2 chance to hit. likewise the invuln isn't that amazing either, at most its going to be annoying to my opponents, but generally, when they want a mek gun dead...it dies.
At the moment in my Freeboota list i use mek gunz to pick off weak units to proc the +1 to hit. If my opponent brings a flimsy walker or a rhino or weak transport i'll pop it. otherwise I rely on my scrapjets using their big shootas to gun down light infantry.
Emicrania wrote: I played Freeboterz ad nothing but freeboterz for 6 months last year. Is not that easy to proc that +1, let me tell you.
And if you miss, you are playing klanless for a turn, wich sucks hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh, and I will be utilizing the Corkscrew buff next time i play. My Scrapjets love getting into CC with weak opponents.
I'm thinking about putting the grots in the subculture as it gives them a minor toughness buff while not really losing all that much. The characters I'd put in their detachments would be weirdboyz and possibly a warboss to keep the chaff from running and maybe counter charging something, he doesn't really need to be freebootaz to do his thing anyway.
And often I don't find the smashas kill their preferred target anyway, but soften it up for things like the buggies or shokkboss to finish up. But yes, I will likely move them from bootaz to grots and back a few times to see which works more consistently.
Question for those who already have Ghaz model: it looks feasible to attach the optional smoke trails to the exhaust pipes instead of his gun? Or are they too small?
Esper wrote: Question for those who already have Ghaz model: it looks feasible to attach the optional smoke trails to the exhaust pipes instead of his gun? Or are they too small?
Esper wrote: Question for those who already have Ghaz model: it looks feasible to attach the optional smoke trails to the exhaust pipes instead of his gun? Or are they too small?
I still kinda wanna convert my gaz a bit, give him a nice chunky minigun or something similar. Maybe also give him an armored helmet, like the ironmanesque face from the nobz kit.
You could probably with the gun down pose have him coolaid man his way through a wall? Or go the other way, give him something good to stand on like a trashed imperial knight ala Perterabo.
Esper wrote:Question for those who already have Ghaz model: it looks feasible to attach the optional smoke trails to the exhaust pipes instead of his gun? Or are they too small?
Should work with a bit of green stuff to hold them in place.
cody.d. wrote:I still kinda wanna convert my gaz a bit, give him a nice chunky minigun or something similar. Maybe also give him an armored helmet, like the ironmanesque face from the nobz kit.
Putting on another head is going to be tricky, as the "head" is made of two pieces which include the neck, the stiches and basically all the skin you can see around his head. You'll probably have to do a lot of cutting and even some green stuff modeling to put on another head.
Thayme wrote:I want to try and change his pose to make it like the previous ghaz. Menacing walk instead of heroic pose
To get that effect, you can just leave off the terrain pieces and plonk him on the base without it. Unlike other models with terrain bases, Thrakka doesn't need it for support and can stand on his own.
Since there was some discussion of freebooterz, I'd like to present my current all-in-on-the-pirates brew for everyone here to take a look at. I wanted to try double naught, since both have a very strong ranged Kustom upgrade (souped up main gun on the gorka and BS 4+ on the Morka), and I wanted to bring flyers to try and help give the list some reach potential to get at those small units (like scouts and guardsmen) for the purposes of proccing the hit buff. Would appreciate some input from vets here. The list is primarily slanted at beating infantry, and I worry it will struggle against Leman Russ spam or Knights.
Esper wrote:Question for those who already have Ghaz model: it looks feasible to attach the optional smoke trails to the exhaust pipes instead of his gun? Or are they too small?
Should work with a bit of green stuff to hold them in place.
I may give it a try (as soon as I can get the model, which seems not so soon...
Swampmist wrote: Since there was some discussion of freebooterz, I'd like to present my current all-in-on-the-pirates brew for everyone here to take a look at. I wanted to try double naught, since both have a very strong ranged Kustom upgrade (souped up main gun on the gorka and BS 4+ on the Morka), and I wanted to bring flyers to try and help give the list some reach potential to get at those small units (like scouts and guardsmen) for the purposes of proccing the hit buff. Would appreciate some input from vets here. The list is primarily slanted at beating infantry, and I worry it will struggle against Leman Russ spam or Knights.
I would break up the brigade into two battalions. The mek's, kopta, and boosta blasta's don't seem worth it in my opinion. Culling those and the spare grots would net you 292 points, some of which you'll have to buy an extra character but you will also be able to double your flash gitz or work in mek gunz. From memory I tried a list a while ago that had triple battalion with 3 SAG's, bikerboss, biker mek w/kff (before legends), weirdboy, 2 gorkanauts, 1 morkanaut, and 3 dakkajets. The rest of the list was gretchin. So it is possible to cram in some jets and nauts and come out with a lot of CP but it involves culling everything else.
Swampmist wrote: Since there was some discussion of freebooterz, I'd like to present my current all-in-on-the-pirates brew for everyone here to take a look at. I wanted to try double naught, since both have a very strong ranged Kustom upgrade (souped up main gun on the gorka and BS 4+ on the Morka), and I wanted to bring flyers to try and help give the list some reach potential to get at those small units (like scouts and guardsmen) for the purposes of proccing the hit buff. Would appreciate some input from vets here. The list is primarily slanted at beating infantry, and I worry it will struggle against Leman Russ spam or Knights.
I would break up the brigade into two battalions. The mek's, kopta, and boosta blasta's don't seem worth it in my opinion. Culling those and the spare grots would net you 292 points, some of which you'll have to buy an extra character but you will also be able to double your flash gitz or work in mek gunz.
Agree. You have 277 points sunk into getting two CP. There is also absolutely no need to bring 9 units of gretchin, drop any that you don't need to generate CP, for another 105 points freed up.
Get yourself some serious dakka like a trio of scapjets and another SAG to trigger/benefit of your culture bonus instead.
Nora wrote: regarding the new KFF Mek, do you think it is intended that this model is 20p cheaper than before?
I doubt that any part of that datasheet was written with anything in mind but "I'm going home after this". The whole thing is so messed up, it's hard to guess any intention.
Nora wrote: regarding the new KFF Mek, do you think it is intended that this model is 20p cheaper than before?
I doubt that any part of that datasheet was written with anything in mind but "I'm going home after this". The whole thing is so messed up, it's hard to guess any intention.
It's really embarrassing even for GW to release such a shoddy product, especially for a unit/+wargear that is such an integral part of the Ork force.
Did a simple 1500pt game against my roommate's tau he's been building.
Gotta say, the stratagem for the shokkjump is silly good combined with the kustom job. He couldnt do anything to it as it jumped in, sporked a broadside, jumped out of sight of the only other gun that could reach across the table (literal, across the table as i went to the far corner), and next turn did it again lol.
Man i want 3 shokkjumps now so i can get 3 of them auto-jumping. That alone was amazing, ive had too many times in the past where it just refused to advance enough and totally shafted what i was trying to do.
Geemoney wrote: I have three SJD, and I squeeze them into every list that I can. I think the kustom job is a no brainier.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I think Kans with Sparkly Bits and the Grot faction, has play. +3 w/ reroll ones seems real good to me.
My only issue with 3x SJD is only one benefits from the strat.. so if your jumping 3. 1-2 are likely dying.
I really like 6 kans with sparkly and grot rules, a unit of 6 or more Mek guns as well.. even your mandatory 3x10 Gretchin troops are better... my only issue is what 2x HQ do I use.. nothing benefits from the detachment. It’s not like The Gretchin rule confere to the SAG mech just becuase he has a grot Oiler. Weirdboy is ok but honestly I rather take one in a deathskull detachment with the new power.
I mean, i used them before w/o the stratagem and they usually lasted awhile because i was always putting them in places where i either force my opponent to go the wrong direction to shoot it, or only a couple of minor things have a good shot anyway.
All this stratagem means is 1 of them can be super ballsy. Ive had numerous times in the past where if i wanted to i could drop in a totally suicidal position, but have a clear shot at a character. I opted out because generally none of the characters are worth it, since im hitting on 4s and they usually have a 3++ or 4++ so good odds i wont do anything since its only 2 shots (i really dont count the rokkit, i wish i could not take it it never hits).
Now with that stratagem, i'm totally gonna be that ballsy because i can get away, while being reserved with the other two's positioning.
gungo wrote: my only issue is what 2x HQ do I use.. nothing benefits from the detachment.
Big mek to fix up Kanz/Gunz (currently the KFF mek is cheap and would give 5+ invul in as well).
Da jump weird boy is not a bad option to dump in this detachment to as he can cast on anyone, and rarely gains much from any kulture anyway.
If Big Meks stay at 55 points, will you start fielding more?
Technically they are our cheapest HQ now. And spreading more aura sounds awesome to me, and may even be necessary in soup armies due to our new shields being racist.
I was fielding three Dragstas before we had the strat or the kustom job...
I feel like weirdboyz or big meks are the way to go in a grot detachment. I wish we could use Malakari or the Red Gobbo as an HQ, in that detachment...if only because it would be cool.
Swampmist wrote: Since there was some discussion of freebooterz, I'd like to present my current all-in-on-the-pirates brew for everyone here to take a look at. I wanted to try double naught, since both have a very strong ranged Kustom upgrade (souped up main gun on the gorka and BS 4+ on the Morka), and I wanted to bring flyers to try and help give the list some reach potential to get at those small units (like scouts and guardsmen) for the purposes of proccing the hit buff. Would appreciate some input from vets here. The list is primarily slanted at beating infantry, and I worry it will struggle against Leman Russ spam or Knights.
I would break up the brigade into two battalions. The mek's, kopta, and boosta blasta's don't seem worth it in my opinion. Culling those and the spare grots would net you 292 points, some of which you'll have to buy an extra character but you will also be able to double your flash gitz or work in mek gunz.
Agree. You have 277 points sunk into getting two CP.
There is also absolutely no need to bring 9 units of gretchin, drop any that you don't need to generate CP, for another 105 points freed up.
Get yourself some serious dakka like a trio of scapjets and another SAG to trigger/benefit of your culture bonus instead.
Huh, alright. I have found orks are super cp hungry as-so-far, so expected the 2 extra cp to be worth playing 3 meks instead of a weirdboy. I actually took the fast attack options on purpose notably; I've found a deffkopta helps a ton with new ITC for scoring recon and behind enemy lines, and I wanted to test the boosta blastas with the new strat that makes their flamers significantly stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do agree that the scrapjets feel stronger than the boosta blastas, so I can see where that's valuable. They are another CP sink though, in a list that is going to devour its CP
Swampmist wrote: I do agree that the scrapjets feel stronger than the boosta blastas, so I can see where that's valuable. They are another CP sink though, in a list that is going to devour its CP
They are both good in different ways.
The Megatrakk is probably just better all round. I do like that new KBB stratagem, though. 1 CP to get 2 max shot skorchas for a turn seems very valuable in a pinch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about the new Deathskull power, the more I think it'll really change up how you wanna build that clan's list.
Like, even Big Shootas start to look better if they can shoot at AP-1... and AP-1 Shootas and Choppa attacks seem amazing.
We can really choose to delete or cripple some troublesome units if our bulk attacks get that bonus. SM have shown massed AP-1 shooting is devastating.
gungo wrote: my only issue is what 2x HQ do I use.. nothing benefits from the detachment.
Big mek to fix up Kanz/Gunz (currently the KFF mek is cheap and would give 5+ invul in as well).
Da jump weird boy is not a bad option to dump in this detachment to as he can cast on anyone, and rarely gains much from any kulture anyway.
A kff mek would be nice if the kff isn't clan locked and/or the kff is free.. I could use him as either a shield for mek guns or kans however they do have a 6+ invul so it's not a massive increase.
It comes down to me a da jump weird boy and sag mek without any bonus to hit.
I'm wondering, how easy would it be to have 2 burna bommas using flying headbutt to KO a variety of support pieces in short order. The first turn is easy enough. Slap the bomma in any corner to be away from enemy tank fire and you can turboboost pretty much anywhere your base can fit to splash that damage. But the second one is a little trickier. You could put it in the opposite corner, move the minimum 20" first turn then second turn land in the same spot as the first. But would this be practical? Knocking out anything short of a primaris gravis captain is very juicy, but can you actually maneuver as you need to drop those 2 turn hits? It'd be hard for battlesuit commanders I think, but even the first drop would wipe out a lot of those small drone units, making the actual shooting and CQC vastly easier.
I'm gonna test 3 next week and my thought process was to fly the one I want to blast in optimal position to do as much damage as possible, than use the other two to move block a part of the army and force them to move where I want them. So either will they move, where I want them to move, either will they stay stationary and risk to blow the plane and explode on 4+ with CP reroll, which is 75% chance to explode in their deployment.
The question is same like with the deepstrike - how does it work, if the enemy knows, how does it works? Almost everybody do some type of screening againts deepstrike now. Screen againts kamikadze bommers is similar task.
BUT the base of bommer is significantly harder to screen than 9” deepstrike. That is definetly significant adventage.
If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!
wannabmoy wrote: If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!
You might need to do a light edit. Your formatting is a bit off in a couple places I just saw from a quick look.
Like, Klever Spanner is listed as an "Interesting Option" but you actually comment it as a Missed Opportunity.
And the Pyromaniacs review isn't there. Although I'd label that as a major asterisk -- in an air wing with 3 Burna Bombers, interesting. Anything else? Trash.
I'm thinking about putting the grots in the subculture as it gives them a minor toughness buff while not really losing all that much. The characters I'd put in their detachments would be weirdboyz and possibly a warboss to keep the chaff from running and maybe counter charging something, he doesn't really need to be freebootaz to do his thing anyway.
And often I don't find the smashas kill their preferred target anyway, but soften it up for things like the buggies or shokkboss to finish up. But yes, I will likely move them from bootaz to grots and back a few times to see which works more consistently.
My only problem with putting grotz into the subkulture is that I need them protecting my characters. I know that sounds strange but I have no less than 2 players in my tournament scene who run sniper heavy armies that pick off weak characters for fun, and a SSAG big mek is a golden target for snipers. I don't want to put him in any other kulture because I want that +1 to hit from freebootaz and he loses access to SSAG if he changes kulture as well.
The other issue with the subkulture is that they don't keep Freeboota which also means my Mek gunz can't proc the +1 to hit when they kill something for me. If those subkultures worked the way the sanctus ones worked I would be all about it. Id pay 1CP for that detachment to keep their freeboota rule AND gain the grot rules, but otherwise its a trap in my opinion. the 6++ isn't spectacular in any sense, the reroll 1s is nice but not worth losing +1 to hit for a huge swath of units that needed those mek gunz to pick something off.
wannabmoy wrote: If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!
You might need to do a light edit. Your formatting is a bit off in a couple places I just saw from a quick look.
Like, Klever Spanner is listed as an "Interesting Option" but you actually comment it as a Missed Opportunity.
And the Pyromaniacs review isn't there. Although I'd label that as a major asterisk -- in an air wing with 3 Burna Bombers, interesting. Anything else? Trash.
I'd probably do a quick run through again.
I agree on everything, plus I had the chance to see the batrep those guys did and, even if I dismissed it on reddit, I gotta say there is a lot of potentials there.
I agree on everything, plus I had the chance to see the batrep those guys did and, even if I dismissed it on reddit, I gotta say there is a lot of potentials there.
Hmm. They also seem to be very bullish on the Gork and not the Mork.
I seem to like Morks better on paper, are Gorks really that much better?
Klever Spanner IMO is definitely a good one if running lootas in a Vehicle, as part of a vehicle heavy list. I've found that a trukk way in the back gets ignored if Buggies and Battlewagons are up in the Gits face.
On tactics for burna bombers is it worth headbutting your bomber turn 1 where instead you could just drop a burna bombs? I feel sure 3 garaunteed mortal wounds are nice in a large radius but isnt a 4+ chance for a mortal wound on every model in a unit better (up to 10)? Those extra helllfire missles aren’t bad either...
wannabmoy wrote: If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!
You might need to do a light edit. Your formatting is a bit off in a couple places I just saw from a quick look.
Like, Klever Spanner is listed as an "Interesting Option" but you actually comment it as a Missed Opportunity.
And the Pyromaniacs review isn't there. Although I'd label that as a major asterisk -- in an air wing with 3 Burna Bombers, interesting. Anything else? Trash.
I'd probably do a quick run through again.
I agree on everything, plus I had the chance to see the batrep those guys did and, even if I dismissed it on reddit, I gotta say there is a lot of potentials there.
Thanks, is there anything you'd like to see in the future? Depending on when quarantine's lift we have a great matchup between SW and Orks planned but we may be going with engine war next instead.
Bombs are dropped during the movement phase as you move over, so you can drop one set of bombs (and another set that hit on 5+s if you want for 1CP), then blow it up for another 3 on anything in the radius, if you've got a good spot to place it after moving over something.
You do lose your second set of bombs and your chance to shoot, but the shooting on a burna-bomma is terrible and you're unlikely to have a great target for a second set of bomb anyway; it'll either be destroyed or you are going to have trouble setting up another run given the way flyer movement works.
yukishiro1 wrote: Bombs are dropped during the movement phase as you move over, so you can drop one set of bombs (and another set that hit on 5+s if you want for 1CP), then blow it up for another 3 on anything in the radius, if you've got a good spot to place it after moving over something.
You do lose your second set of bombs and your chance to shoot, but the shooting on a burna-bomma is terrible and you're unlikely to have a great target for a second set of bomb anyway; it'll either be destroyed or you are going to have trouble setting up another run given the way flyer movement works.
rerollable d6 skorcha missles aren’t that bad. But ya losing that second bomb hurts if you are only taking 1 bomber. If you are taking a flyer detachment of 3 go nuts head butting each turn.
gungo wrote: On tactics for burna bombers is it worth headbutting your bomber turn 1 where instead you could just drop a burna bombs? I feel sure 3 garaunteed mortal wounds are nice in a large radius but isnt a 4+ chance for a mortal wound on every model in a unit better (up to 10)? Those extra helllfire missles aren’t bad either...
As mentioned, the bombs are dropped in the movement phase not shooting so you can still drop your first set of bombs. The big thing is positioning. if you are going to get 3 mortal wounds on a tactical squad and thats it? don't bother. If you going to inflict 3 mortal wounds on 2 or 3 characters and some random squads....go for it!
Yeah, Headbutt is entirely situational. If your opponent spreads their forces out, you'll never make back the point and CP investment for using it. If they castle up, though...
Here’s my list I’ve been working on it starts with 14 command points.
Spoiler:
2 CP warboss on bike- da biggest boss, extra relic
1 CP for Vigilus
1 CP killa kan kustom job- sparkly bits
3 CP gorkanaut- kustom job- slug gubbin, teleport
1 CP gunwagon- kustom job- da boomer
1 CP shockjump dragsta kustom job- whirlygig
My list -
Death skull detachment (vigilus)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk (w grot)
weirdboy- mechanical seizure
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
Gunwagon- da boomer
5x tankbustas- in wagon
Shockjump dragsta- whirlygig
Grot detachment
Warboss on bike - da biggest boss, da killa klaw
Weirdboy- da jump
3x10 grots
6x smasha gun
6x killa kans w rokkits (sparkly bits)
Airwing detachment
Specialist mob- pyromaniacs
3x Burnabomber w skorcha missiles on 1
Useful in game strategems (5 left)
Vigilus shoot twice on gork or SSAG (kustom ammo)- cost 2cp
Ramming speed- gorkanaut - cost 2cp
Flying headbutt
Wildfire
Grot shields
Temperamental shockdrive
Or should I drop da boomer gunwagon and tankbustas for 6 more killa Kans. It gives me another CP.
Spoiler:
2 CP da biggest boss, extra relic
1 CP for Vigilus
1 CP killa kan kustom job- sparkly bits
3 CP gorkanaut kustom job- slug gubbin, teleport
1 CP shockjump dragsta kustom job- whirligig
My list
Death skull detachment (vigilus)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk
weirdboy- mechanical seizure
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
Shockjump dragsta- whirligig
Grot detachment
Warboss on bike- da killa klaw, da biggest boss
Weirdboy- da jump
3x10 grots
6x smasha gun
6x killa kans w rokkits (sparkly bits)
6x killa kans w grotzookas
Airwing detachment
Specialist mob- pyromaniacs
3x Burnabomber w skorchas on 2
Useful in game strategems (6 left)
Vigilus shoot twice on gork or SSAG (kustom ammo) - cost 2cp
Ramming speed- gorkanaut - cost 2cp
Flying headbutt
Wildfire
Grot shields
Temperamental shockdrive
personally i'd go with Second, Biker warboss is a great thing to have with that buff, and Shokjump dragsta can be a real game-changer well worth trading a gunwagon for. And 1 less cp wont make any appreciable difference.
flandarz wrote: Yeah, Headbutt is entirely situational. If your opponent spreads their forces out, you'll never make back the point and CP investment for using it. If they castle up, though...
And there in lies it's power I feel. If you make a tau or marine player choose between taking 3 mortal wounds on half their army every turn or spreading out, pushing units out of aura ranges or shoving shield drones into places the tau player doesn't want. I may be a bit optimistic in saying this but I reckon even the threat of 1 or 2 burna bommas could have a fair bit of effect on the meta in general.
acme2468 wrote: personally i'd go with Second, Biker warboss is a great thing to have with that buff, and Shokjump dragsta can be a real game-changer well worth trading a gunwagon for. And 1 less cp wont make any appreciable difference.
It’s mostly how it plays out in my head
Turn 1, move bombers and headbutt with 1..... -1 cp (no cp for wildfire)
Turn 1, shock jump dragsta use temperamental shockdrive... -1cp
Turn 2, tellyport gork arrives... kustom ammo shoots twice.... -2 cp or kustom ammo shoots twice turn 1 SAG if good target.
I don’t have 2 CP left for ramming speed using the first list but do in second.
An extra CP can be used for reroll, grot shield, or wildfire or another headbutt. And a boomer tankbusta wagon (w deathskull psychic power) plus tankbustas is decent shooting.. Lack of CP is a problem
tulun wrote: Yeah. I honestly think it'll be really hard to not go triple bat or a Brigade if you want to buy that many Kustom Jobs.
Honestly I think beyond fixing his Waagh the one thing ghaz needed to make him viable is a way to increase or regain command points. Allowing ork players to do more.
Yea there's a lot of small things that bug me about Ghaz, and always has. Youre paying so many points for a "beat stick" yet you can just flop your wounds with no re rolls and end up with only a minimal amount of wounds haha. Its so odd that you're paying so much for only 5 attacks and they're not 100% accurate.
Well, he does give himself reroll 1s to hit now, making him almost 100% accurate (and mathmatically greater than 100% accurate if he's actually in goffs)
Swampmist wrote: Well, he does give himself reroll 1s to hit now, making him almost 100% accurate (and mathmatically greater than 100% accurate if he's actually in goffs)
It's more insulting I can do this for at little as 78 points, a relic, and a CP, and I re-roll all wounds to boot. Ghaz is not an offensive powerhouse at 285.
I initially thought flying 'eadbutt was going to have a big impact, but now I'm not sure sure. The castles you really want to use it on pack so tightly you aren't going to be able to land the plane anywhere near the middle on T1, so you're going to be stuck detonating it at the edge if you detonate it anywhere. And then after T1, they're just going to shoot your planes down. Maybe against Tau broadside builds if you are really careful with your movement you can keep the plane out of range and then come in for a T2 or T3 drop once you've made some room...but honestly I'm not sure 3MW on some broadsides is really such a big deal anyway. And the bombs themselves are pretty much junk against tau.
I do see it boning grey knight paladin bombs pretty hard, since they don't want to castle and rely on a bunch of juicy character targets they don't really want to be screening out, and also have extremely limited ability to kill anything outside 24 inches. I guess they could take some of their 5-man assault squads (forget the name offhand, the ones that aren't terminators) and put them around their characters instead of DSing them to make it so you can't land the plane close enough to the characters T1. But they don't have much range, so even if they do that, you can probably keep the plane away from their paladin bomb until you're ready to use it. They aren't going to want to jump the paladins to deal with the plane because that'll leave them stranded. The bombs themselves are a big threat against this build, too.
I thought initially it would also bone seer council eldar, but I think it's really only T1 that the planes are a big threat to that build, because they can pretty easily shoot/smite them down or avoid them after that, not to mention that they'll likely have a 5+FNP up from their first turn. And the build has so much mobility and so much screening that on T1 they can just wrap the council with their CP-generating trash (usually storm guardians or rangers) so you can't bring the plane in T1. And if you don't bring it in T1, you're going to really, really struggle to bring it in again because they'll just dodge you or if necessary shoot you out of the sky easily with a round of seer council guided catapults and spears. And the bombs itself are not that great against seer council since they only hit a on 5+ base (and the seer council will have a 5+ FNP as soon as they get a turn to put it up).
Swampmist wrote: Well, he does give himself reroll 1s to hit now, making him almost 100% accurate (and mathmatically greater than 100% accurate if he's actually in goffs)
It's more insulting I can do this for at little as 78 points, a relic, and a CP, and I re-roll all wounds to boot. Ghaz is not an offensive powerhouse at 285.
What is this combination? I do believe I'm missing a relic here.
cody.d. wrote: I think most of his points cost would be wrapped up in the 1+ attack aura. It's a pretty good buff.
Yes, yet his lack of Waaagh means that you have to keep him in 6" range of the boyz when they are both advancing and assaulting. That hobbles it in the practicality department. In addition, unlike his prior version he can't be taken in a transport. You're essentially limited to footlogging him or tellyporta, in the latter case the aura won't even be a factor.
It's one of those things where they haven't taken in the whole versus the parts.
If you compare Guilliman or Calgar's aura ability, a simple reroll to all hits, it's far superior because it's a static, predictable buff. Not really terrain dependent and you don't have to time it or concentrate on your movement at all. Ghaz is kind of a liability as is.
Swampmist wrote: Well, he does give himself reroll 1s to hit now, making him almost 100% accurate (and mathmatically greater than 100% accurate if he's actually in goffs)
It's more insulting I can do this for at little as 78 points, a relic, and a CP, and I re-roll all wounds to boot. Ghaz is not an offensive powerhouse at 285.
What is this combination? I do believe I'm missing a relic here.
Da Killa Klaw and Brutal but Kunnin and da Biggest Boss strategem. Reroll all hits and wounds w/ 4 damage, 5 attacks.
And, to be fair, Orkz ain't exactly hurting for CC attacks, so getting 1 more per model isn't a huge buff for us. 30 Choppa Boyz with Warpath already have 151 attacks (including the Nob), which can beat down pretty much anything outside of Knights and other high T, Sv, and W units, even assuming you can only manage to get 100 of them, due to positioning.
Might be worth it for MANz or other "anti-armor" CC units, but even they rarely need the extra attack.
Basically, Ghaz is buffing things that we already do really well, when it'd be better if he was improving our weak areas. He'd be practically a no-brainer if he gave +1 shot at Range, or a 5+++ aura, or really anything that would improve our durability and ranged output.
It's pretty sad that a gretchin can kool-aid man through a ruin wall, but ghaz runs smack into it and bounces off and has to spend the whole rest of the game waddling around it.
cody.d. wrote: Then throw in fists of gork to wound a knight on 2s and kick his attacks up to 7 to boot.
And he can fight twice without dying, so he's potentially twice as efficient as Ghaz!
What in the world would need 2 or 3 rounds of combat from that dude? XP Even gak with an invul like a smash captain die to 2 hits from the good old smashboss. And knights only get a 6+ armour against it while needing to pass 2 to live. 3 if it's a goff boss.
Though it should be mentioned, this guy can be on a bike for not that much of a cost. Yeah you can't swing twice without dying but you can also do your biz first turn if the stars align.
wannabmoy wrote: If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!
It's a good read with some interesting thoughts, but the article as a whole feels like it was written by someone who is either not playing orks or at least hasn't played anything outside of the 8th edition's tournament meta.
There are many questionable ideas in there which clearly show a lack of experience with many units (tri-pointing with dreads? wartrike wants to be in combat? falling back from combat?). In addition only "game changer" categories seem to have gotten real love from the author, the others very much boil down to "this sucks, next!" without any real explanation to why.
So, it wasn't a waste of time to read and there is a nice angle on some units that the author apparently knows his way around like MANz or SJD. But there are better articles out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More shower thoughts:
SJD - Evil Suns or Deff Skulls?
The SJD with the stratagem might even pop up in otherwise pure infantry lists now. As it's likely that you will still be running deff skulls and evils suns in competitive lists, there is no cost of opportunity here.
Evil Suns:
Hit on 3+ for an average of 1.33 hits with the shokk rifle, rokkit average is .3333 hits.
Deff Skulls:
Hit on 4+, but re-roll to hit, to wound and damage
Math for SJD with re-rolls:
.25 chance to hit both, re-roll to hit goes to rokkit
.25 chance to hit one or the other, re-rolling miss into a hit
.25 chance to hit one or the other, failing the re-roll
.125 chance to hit neither, re-rolling miss into hit
.125 chance to hit neither, failing the re-roll
Total chance to hit 2 = 50%
Total chance to hit 1 = 37.5%
Total chance to miss = 12.5%
Average = 1.375 hits
Rokkit averages .1666 hits, with a 25% chance of getting a re-roll for another .0347 to hit for a total of average of .2014 hits.
So without the to wound and the damage roll, deff skulls are really close to ES, but without doing the math, they clearly pull ahead. ES does have a stratagem to save a second SJD from certain doom though.
Or, in other words, if you are running pure ES, you don't lose a whole lot, but if you want to optimize, SJD should be deff skulls.
Jump-Shoot-Jump on SJDs is fantastic and something I've talked about for quite a while, due to being an ES player. Yeah, I think SJDs are better as deffskulls but having that move being possible with two different buggies every turn sounds fantastic. I've thought about combining it with visions in the smoke to try and get a reliable character killer but the range on the psychic power screws that up (unless you're super desperate and it's the only way you can win, so you da jump and then cast it).
Question about the boomboyz specialist mob though. Do you guys think it's RAI that the squig bombs get the benefit of that kultur as well? They aren't specifically called out so I'm assuming no but tankbusta bombs get it and I'll feel sad if my little suicide monsters suddenly have a worse payload than the rest of the squad.
Edit: Also, Jidmah, surely the ES rokkit should average slightly higher than that due to DDD?
PiñaColada wrote: ...Question about the boomboyz specialist mob though. Do you guys think it's RAI that the squig bombs get the benefit of that kultur as well? They aren't specifically called out so I'm assuming no but tankbusta bombs get it and I'll feel sad if my little suicide monsters suddenly have a worse payload than the rest of the squad...
I'm afraid I have no insight into that question I'm afraid, but it did make me check out my tankbustas entry and I only just noticed that they get 1 str3 attack at 2+ in combat. Never noticed that before, I've always kind of treated them like tokens rather than actual interactive models.
That's true, I didn't look/think close enough about the numbers you showed to realise you never included it. The fact that you didn't does strike me as odd though, seeing as these aren't their actual statistics in regards to efficiency presented now, merely correct ratios..
Edit: To clarify: If I wanted to know how effective my SJD is at damaging target X then something like DDD becomes relevant (if, arguably, marginally so). Otherwise you'd end up with incorrectly calculated damage per points ratios etc. Now as you mention it wouldn't be any more or less incorrect intra-codex but it would still show an incorrect value. And it'd be wonky anytime you compare it to anything outside the codex. Obviously it's not a huge deal either way, just strikes me as a slightly odd way of doing it.
On the gun that matters, the DSSJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.
The re-roll damage causes it to easily go ahead. And having that 6+ invul save means it's easier to expose the thing when you inevitably have to. The ES fall back strat is nice, but won't necessarily get the thing out of danger (unlike the deep strike again, which probably will).
I think people are forgetting how little CP we seem to be having with all of these new upgrades, too. I don't think there will be room to spend 2 CP a turn on two falling back anyway.
the reroll the D6 damage alone makes Deathskullz superior to me. Ive had way too many times where i'll get 2/3 Shokkjump hits, fail to wound once, and only get 1 wound through on a 6 or less wound target and i rolled a friggen 1 on damage. Then reroll'd into a 5/6 and get the kill.
Doesnt help that i swear my chessex dice are rigged to roll 1s though. I've played 2 games in my new basement and both games even my opponent was like "you....are rolling a lot of 1s..." when i went to fire my SAG and i kid you not rolled snake eyes 3 times in a row (str, shots, to hit, reroll 1 die into a 1) lol. Also went through 2 boyz squads that game without rolling a single 6 save (not...joking...)
Went to my gaming store to grab some paints and figured i'd grab another shokkjump while i was there. Only dang buggy they actually sold during this lockdown on GW shipments was the shokkjump...feelsbad lol.
PiñaColada wrote: That's true, I didn't look/think close enough about the numbers you showed to realise you never included it. The fact that you didn't does strike me as odd though, seeing as these aren't their actual statistics in regards to efficiency presented now, merely correct ratios..
Edit: To clarify: If I wanted to know how effective my SJD is at damaging target X then something like DDD becomes relevant (if, arguably, marginally so). Otherwise you'd end up with incorrectly calculated damage per points ratios etc. Now as you mention it wouldn't be any more or less incorrect intra-codex but it would still show an incorrect value. And it'd be wonky anytime you compare it to anything outside the codex. Obviously it's not a huge deal either way, just strikes me as a slightly odd way of doing it.
I have found that it's actually better to ignore DDD when making decisions when playing - the number of sixes you roll is purely luck-based and assuming the average goes up by 16.66% will just trick you into bad decisions. For some units the law of large numbers applies, like for bikes or shoota boyz shooting, but outside of that? Even a Gorkanaut or Dakkajet have high chances of rolling vastly more or less sixes than one in six.
As for comparing units cross-codex, I firmly believe doing so is idiotic anyways. Every codex has a completely different of ecosystem stratagems, faction traits, psychic powers, synergies and options available. Not to mention that it's nigh impossible to translate utility, movement speed, weapon range or battlefield roles into points. And then there is the whole issue of souping...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: On the gun that matters, the DSSJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.
RE: ES VS DS for SJD after advancing.
I did the maths:
I've assumed for the DSSJD that the priority of the re-roll to hit would be shokk rifile, shokk rifle DDD extra shots, rokkit, rokkit DDD extra shots. So each step of the expectation applies the probability of having access to the re-roll and the probability that the re-roll is needed. EG first shot has a probability of 1 that the re-roll is available, second shot has probability of 1/2, other shots it gets more involved when you factor in DDD.
ESSJD expects to hit 0.778 shots per shot with the shokk rifle, so that's a total of 1.56 expected hits.
DSSJD expects to 0.885 hits with the first shot and expects 0.734 hits with the second shot, so that's a total of 1, so that's a total of 1.619 hits.
The variance will be in favour of DSSJD thanks to the ability to re-roll. So that expected number of hits or better is more realistic to expect. Whatever the wound rolls and damage rolls are, the DSSJD will come out on top. I CBF doing the comparison because after the hit rolls its clear the DSSJD will be strictly better.
The ESSJD is more likely to hit with the rokkit. Even if the rokkit was second in priority for the DSSJD, the likelihood of having a re-roll by then doesn't even push it close to ESSJD.
The ESSJD expects 0.389 hits with the rokkit.
The DSSJD expects 0.194 to 0.235 hits, where the result of 0.194 is assuming no re-rolls, and 0.235 assumes that you priortised the rokkit after the shokk rfile but before DDD extra shots for both weapons.
TL;DR The shokk rifle will perform better with Deathskulls and most likely compensate for the under performance of the rokkit. The rokkit will be more likely to hit with Evil Sunz but overall the lack of re-rolls means that it would have less consistent performance.
tulun wrote: On the gun that matters, the DSSJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.
DS shokk rifle is 1.375 hits.
Hmm.
Yeah okay. I had as a rough ball park treat one of the die as .75 to hit, other as .5 to hit. But I suppose because this reroll is conditional you have to dig more into the weeds on hits in expectation.
Went to my gaming store to grab some paints and figured i'd grab another shokkjump while i was there. Only dang buggy they actually sold during this lockdown on GW shipments was the shokkjump...feelsbad lol.
I ordered one with some extra paint so I could try to catch up on some hobby work..
The only benefit for ES sjd is you can jump shoot jump 2 however the lack of CPs are orks biggest limitation right now.
Go ahead and make some lists it’s a huge problem for list builds with all these decent kustom jobs.
gungo wrote: The only benefit for ES sjd is you can jump shoot jump 2 however the lack of CPs are orks biggest limitation right now.
Go ahead and make some lists it’s a huge problem for list builds with all these decent kustom jobs.
Yeah. I think the tendency of mech players go for bat bat 1 CP detachment is biting them in the ass too. A good chunk of our force multiplication comes from stratagems.
Brigades are looking better. Sadly the elite slot kind of sucks for mech, unless you stack a bunch of tankbustas in something... but that’s not really cheap points wise.
1 Kustom Job
1 Extra Relic
1 Warboss Strat boost
1 Special Detachment (SSAG)
Already down to 9cp remaining. And quite frankly i find it difficult to only pick 1 kustom job unless were playing like 1500pts, where i probably dont even have many i even want one on in the first place.
I actually found myself taking Follow Me Ladz! instead of Big Killa Boss to get another cplol. Since...for some reason my friends' answer to the SSAG is dont bring vehicles not...yaknow..kill the ssag by turn2 at the latest...
1 Kustom Job
1 Extra Relic
1 Warboss Strat boost
1 Special Detachment (SSAG)
Already down to 9cp remaining. And quite frankly i find it difficult to only pick 1 kustom job unless were playing like 1500pts, where i probably dont even have many i even want one on in the first place.
I actually found myself taking Follow Me Ladz! instead of Big Killa Boss to get another cplol. Since...for some reason my friends' answer to the SSAG is dont bring vehicles not...yaknow..kill the ssag by turn2 at the latest...
How close are you to a brigade? Because 16 CP sounds a lot better than 13.
Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.
Vineheart01 wrote: Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.
You only need 3 heavies, don't you usually field a couple? 1 Mek Gun is only 33 points.
I honestly love the elite slot... in an infantry style list. Mad Dok, MANz, Tankbustas...
I generally agree though. It's a bad fit. Fast Attack has cheap Deff Koptas (29 or 44 point variants are both really, really good); Heavy has Smashas. Elites is really the dead weight for cheap options.
Elites is probably going to be Tankbustas in a vehicle (you can fit 3 squads of 5 in a battlewagon or Forktress, which seems decent actually). 5 man kommando squad is only 40 points... if you have legends access too, you can get 2 burnas for free.
I hate force org taxes in general, though. It's always annoying when you have an idea but seem like you are burning so many points on HQs and grots you don't really want (triple bat). As long as the piece you bring pulls its weight, I'm happy.
Most likely they wont ever get a chance to use Shoot Again unless you intentionally disembark them, and i dont see a time where that's a smart move - more like an act of desperation.
The issue isnt the slots themselves, its filling 3 of each at the same time. Yeah, Tankbustas are awesome, MANz are useful, but theyre expensive enough to usually force sacrifices somewhere to bring them in enough quantities to be a factor. I only have 1 mek gun, a traktor. I refuse to pay 50 bucks each and simply havnt gotten around to kitbashing since i generally run several wagons and a naut anyway.
i miss the old days of listbuilding where SLOTS was the issue, not cp or points. 3HQ max, 6 troops max, 3 FA/Elite/Heavy max, 1 super max, 1 fortification max, probably 3 planes max since theyre their own role now.
Best I got with a lot of feed back is a bat/bat/airwing 14 command points
9 are gone off the bat for army upgrading...
5 left for
-1 tempermental shock drive turn 1
-1 headbutt on bomber turn 1
-2 kustom ammo shoot twice on either a SSAG for a good target or on teleported gork w kustom gun..
Leaves 1 for turn 2 headbutt, grot shield (for SSAG) or a really important reroll!
If I didn’t use the tempermental shock drive turn 1; I can kustom ammo again or ramming speed on gork. That’s not a good safety net and I kinda wish I had a chance to regain CP back without neutering my SSAG.
looking at this cp discussion I feel a lot better about forcing my Freebooterz list into brigade+airwing. 2 cp goes a long way toward making ork shooting actually viable, between double shooting a morkanaught or deepstriking a kustom gorka.
The heck are you taking? I cant imagine taking every possible upgrade is good (i.e. taking both warboss + mek strats, i'd recommend not even doing the mek one unless youre intentionally not running a boss)
Most likely they wont ever get a chance to use Shoot Again unless you intentionally disembark them, and i dont see a time where that's a smart move - more like an act of desperation.
The issue isnt the slots themselves, its filling 3 of each at the same time. Yeah, Tankbustas are awesome, MANz are useful, but theyre expensive enough to usually force sacrifices somewhere to bring them in enough quantities to be a factor.
I only have 1 mek gun, a traktor. I refuse to pay 50 bucks each and simply havnt gotten around to kitbashing since i generally run several wagons and a naut anyway.
i miss the old days of listbuilding where SLOTS was the issue, not cp or points. 3HQ max, 6 troops max, 3 FA/Elite/Heavy max, 1 super max, 1 fortification max, probably 3 planes max since theyre their own role now.
I love Tankbuastas. I think they have generally been underutilized compare to Lootas, which is a shame, because I think they are generally better because they don't need a lick of CP to be effective. They are an effective 3+ to hit against vehicles. Even when you aren't firing against a vehicle, 17 point per rocket I believe is the cheapest platform we got for it. And you can achieve shoot twice by... you know, having them survive multiple rounds, for free.
I hear you, though. Slot tax is just frustrating for army comp.
Tankbustas are fine. I think the reason they've fallen off compared to Lootas is that we already have two very good options for dealing with vehicles (SAGs and Smashas), and Lootas are a bit more versatile in that their large volume of shots means they can hit medium to large infantry mobs as well, where TBs will struggle. Their longer range helps a lot too.
Edit: forgot about the SmashBoss. Sorry. 3 good options for anti-armor. More if you include MANz and the various vehicles we have.
The heck are you taking? I cant imagine taking every possible upgrade is good (i.e. taking both warboss + mek strats, i'd recommend not even doing the mek one unless youre intentionally not running a boss)
I’ve linked it already. It’s a lot of strong options. That works well without a ton of CP. nearly everything has an invul and a reroll to hit. Plus a lot of shooting units have bonus to hit as well.
Spoiler:
starts w 14cp
2 CP warboss on bike- da biggest boss, extra relic
1 CP for Vigilus
1 CP killa kan kustom job- sparkly bits
3 CP gorkanaut- kustom job- slug gubbin, teleport
1 CP gunwagon- kustom job- da boomer
1 CP shockjump dragsta kustom job- whirlygig
My list
Death skull detachment (vigilus)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk (and grot)
weirdboy- mechanical seizure
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
Gunwagon- da boomer
5x tankbustas- in wagon
Shockjump dragsta- whirlygig
Grot detachment
Warboss on bike - da biggest boss, da killa klaw
Weirdboy- da jump
3x10 grots
6x smasha gun
6x killa kans w rokkits (sparkly bits)
Useful in game strategems (5 left)
Vigilus shoot twice on gork or SSAG (kustom ammo)- cost 2cp
Flying headbutt
Temperamental shockdrive
Ramming speed on gorkanaut - cost 2cp
Wildfire
Grot shields on SSAG
Orks are never beaten on warboss on bike- cost 2cp
Oh ok you include tellyporta in that. Yeah 6-7CP feels normal right now, which is sad.
3x5 tankbustas in a forktress definitely helped solve my brigade issue.....man i run too many vehicles lol (i run bonebreakas literally because for their base function theyre pretty dang good, its when you try to make them transport something expensive they become sucky)
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh ok you include tellyporta in that. Yeah 6-7CP feels normal right now, which is sad.
3x5 tankbustas in a forktress definitely helped solve my brigade issue.....man i run too many vehicles lol (i run bonebreakas literally because for their base function theyre pretty dang good, its when you try to make them transport something expensive they become sucky)
which klan do you run bonebreakas as. i've been thinking of making a fun list with lots of battlewagons and thought BBs would be best as blood axes, especially with the new weirdboy spell
Deathskullz, the invul basically being the ultimate reason though the reroll to hit/wound is nice too since its still sporting a D6 damage gun if youre not tight on points and with 6+D6 attacks youre bound to roll a few 1s anyway. But 4+ armor.....they usually get no save at all. So that invul is paramount.
Mind you this isnt a competitive mentality here, just local games. People tend to pay much less attention to it when its either empty or just has 10 boyz in it and then it starts mowing things.
I really dont think they'd work as anything else unless you gave it the Forktress KJ. Issue with that is only one can benefit, and i have a compulsive urge to run pairs of anything under 200pts if i run at all lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.
You only need 3 heavies, don't you usually field a couple? 1 Mek Gun is only 33 points.
I honestly love the elite slot... in an infantry style list. Mad Dok, MANz, Tankbustas...
I generally agree though. It's a bad fit. Fast Attack has cheap Deff Koptas (29 or 44 point variants are both really, really good); Heavy has Smashas. Elites is really the dead weight for cheap options.
Elites is probably going to be Tankbustas in a vehicle (you can fit 3 squads of 5 in a battlewagon or Forktress, which seems decent actually). 5 man kommando squad is only 40 points... if you have legends access too, you can get 2 burnas for free.
I hate force org taxes in general, though. It's always annoying when you have an idea but seem like you are burning so many points on HQs and grots you don't really want (triple bat). As long as the piece you bring pulls its weight, I'm happy.
The thing about the elite slot is that all units in there are either worthless or expensive and none of them synergize with a mech list.
Even the 5+5+5 tankbustas in a wagon add up to at least 375 points that you could just have spent on other things. If you really want more CP, you need to suck it up and bring that third battalion.
Personally, I feel like the way to go is just to change your way of playing and not burn through CP as fast. The difference between a battalion and an airwing is just 4 CP, but you pay at least 228 points in tax units for it - and my gut feeling is that shooting the SSAG two more times or a bunch of kustom jobs are just not worth that.
If you only shoot SSAG/naut twice when it really makes a difference but you have more units which can contribute in a meaningful way to the game at all times, it lessens the burn-out effect of your army and makes you less vulnerable when your CP sink faces a premature end.
I completely agree unless we have a way to regain CPs to keep feeding units it’s best to work with units that don’t need a lot of constant CPs which is why I don’t think multiple ESSJD work as it just eats CPs.
As is I only plan to use tempermental shockdrive only once to get it out of harms way after it tries to snipe someone. That will theoretically let me use it at least twice before someone can get a clean shot at it.
The thing about the elite slot is that all units in there are either worthless or expensive and none of them synergize with a mech list.
Even the 5+5+5 tankbustas in a wagon add up to at least 375 points that you could just have spent on other things. If you really want more CP, you need to suck it up and bring that third battalion.
Personally, I feel like the way to go is just to change your way of playing and not burn through CP as fast. The difference between a battalion and an airwing is just 4 CP, but you pay at least 228 points in tax units for it - and my gut feeling is that shooting the SSAG two more times or a bunch of kustom jobs are just not worth that.
If you only shoot SSAG/naut twice when it really makes a difference but you have more units which can contribute in a meaningful way to the game at all times, it lessens the burn-out effect of your army and makes you less vulnerable when your CP sink faces a premature end.
I agree with the premise. I do think Orks will still want a good chunk of CP in your back pocket, because "Shoot twice" with the SSAG (or others) often means a 4 CP investment because of neg hit modifiers, which means going down to like... 5 CP, even after the tellyporta, seems like too little to me. Maybe I'm wrong. There's probably a sweet spot for the amount extras we spend on stratagems now, or we just have to build to not use our other good strats.
I would push back saying its inherently a waste to take 15 Tankbustas generally speaking, though, as they are actually very good at what they do for their points. If you don't really need more rocket fire, that's fine. The real tax is the platform they are in (IE: 120 points min for a battlewagon) then the unit itself imo.
I just don’t get tankbustas now. We have much better anti tank tools now.
I have fielded a 15 mob, bad moon, at many tournaments in 2019. I don’t see myself using them anymore. Grot rev Smashas, Da OK Boomer, morkanaut with sparkly bitz... you name it, all superior choices IMHO.
I could be wrong but... I feel they are just so bad when opponent has no vehicules
addnid wrote: I just don’t get tankbustas now. We have much better anti tank tools now.
I have fielded a 15 mob, bad moon, at many tournaments in 2019. I don’t see myself using them anymore. Grot rev Smashas, Da OK Boomer, morkanaut with sparkly bitz... you name it, all superior choices IMHO.
I could be wrong but... I feel they are just so bad when opponent has no vehicules
Tankbustas in boomboys detachment are likely to be at least semi competitive. Str9 ap-3 3dam rerollable to hit bs 5+ is very nice.
But I agree mostly
My main issue is what do I put in a da boomer gunwagon? Lootas aren’t much better... flash Gitz have thier own issues. And it’s not like the gun wagon is moving fast enough for assault units.. tankbustas don’t need CP to work well. All tankbustas need is a transport and the gunwagon is ideal.
The main role of tankbustas in my opinion is flyer killing, and to a lesser extent dealing wioth -to hit deathballs like the possessed star. A lot of our upgrades to shooting have come from increased BS, and Tankbustas are as such still the best and ripping flyers out of the air with More Dakka.
Yeah, I'd say tankbustas still have a role, it's just that they're not necessarily must take unless your list doesn't have that area covered already. Boomboyz have definitely given them a new lease on life in making their damage stick. I'm just wondering if Lobbas are worth considering in a Boomboyz detachment since it addresses their lack of AP and it gives them the S6 sweet spot of wounding T3 units on 2's.
Gungo I say you put nothing, or just grots, in da boomer. It is probably going to be focused down with that save, and 36 inches isn’t a huge range. Just use it to disembark something turn 1 and gain that extra 3 inch move, and space in the deployment zone (something orks lack)
Swampist yes indeed but we can use other, if slightly less effective, tools for these situations. And lots of smashas will work fine in your examples, without using any cp. SSAG works fine against flyers as they usually don’t have an invul. 255 points for 15 tank bustas is 8 smashas. Smashas have Twice the AP.
Also TBustas don’t deal with centurions or paladins at all.
Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.
Agreed on the paladins, but very few things in the game do deal with those . I am also looking at alternates to the tankbustas, but I do still believe they have a role. A lot of their usefullness depends on if eldar flyers is still a build in the post-pandemic meta. I'm of the opinion that lootas don't have a place right now tbh; their variance is too high and ap-1 isn't good enough in the current meta, especially for how much of a cp hole they are.
addnid wrote: Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.
Best case scenario (a Land Raider in cover) you're looking at doubling your damage output.
More commonly (a Leman Russ) you're not quite double. You're at 5/3rds the damage output.
Worst general case (a Knight) you're rocking an extra 33% damage, or 4/3rds.
Now, obviously some cases you get NO bonus. (Shooting at a Greater Daemon, for example.) But generally, you'll kill those models with other things.
If you rely on one big blob of Bustas, double shooting will do you better in most situations, and at worst, you break even.
If you want more squads, though, it's pretty good.
The problem I have with tankbustas is that they are an easily recognisable threat in my area steming from the use they got out of me in 7th. Even now, the minute I put them on the table, they become priority number one and must die.
Which is a shame, as I have 30 of them which sadly stay in the case most of the time. I can't bring them out for friendly games because they are too good at killing big things, and in competitive games they just get obliterated.
addnid wrote: Gungo I say you put nothing, or just grots, in da boomer. It is probably going to be focused down with that save, and 36 inches isn’t a huge range. Just use it to disembark something turn 1 and gain that extra 3 inch move, and space in the deployment zone (something orks lack)
Swampist yes indeed but we can use other, if slightly less effective, tools for these situations. And lots of smashas will work fine in your examples, without using any cp. SSAG works fine against flyers as they usually don’t have an invul. 255 points for 15 tank bustas is 8 smashas. Smashas have Twice the AP.
Also TBustas don’t deal with centurions or paladins at all.
Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.
I fully expect my boomer to get nuked turn 1...but hey that’s what I want my opponents shooting at instead of my SSAG, warboss on bike, Mek guns, SJD or rocket kans. it’s a bit more durable then the rest while putting out similar damage output. I had 85 points left over on my list and a min unit of tankbustas was a nice filler for the wagon. And if that makes the gun wagon a bigger threat all the better. I was also hoping the wagon would protect them for a turn While getting them in range of stuff. but a min squad of grots is also a good idea if you don’t have anything else to put in it. I guess my point is tankbustas aren’t bad. they have a small niche even though other units can do what they do almost as good. I definitely agree though they aren’t needed anymore.
tulun wrote: Orks must be spoiled for anti tank if turning our Tankbustas into the rough equivalent of assault 1 lascannons (boom boys) is considered 'meh'.
To be fair, those lascannons you speak of are also only 24" range, meaning we either need to tellyport them or transport them in vehicles to actually get them to their targets, so they're always more expensive than just the base cost of tankbustas, who are already very pricey given how fragile they are. And using them with the boomboyz subkultur means you are also losing out with regards to opportunity costs, since dedicating a detachment to them means you're including units that don't really benefit from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swampmist wrote: But like, unironically orks are spoiled for choice on antitank yes
I'd say only really for ranged, which is really weird because it's basically the reverse of the situation back in 6th-7th, where our shooting was pretty garbage as far as AP went (outside of Kustom Mega Kannons) but we had the PK hard carry for us in that department. Now the PK is basically invalid as a CC weapon whereas now with the SSAG, Mek Gunz and Rokkits, we're pretty much golden for cost efficient shooting.
Swampmist wrote: looking at this cp discussion I feel a lot better about forcing my Freebooterz list into brigade+airwing. 2 cp goes a long way toward making ork shooting actually viable, between double shooting a morkanaught or deepstriking a kustom gorka.
Ork shooting viable? I have floored my opponents with ork shooting at tournaments. I distinctly remember one very memorable game where I got first turn and my Big Mek with SSAG killed my opponents Knight, used shoot twice strat and killed another one with the help of some smasha guns and then my loota bomb (Now buffed with +1 to hit) ripped apart his SM squads after my remaining Smasha's killed their Rhinos. He had some guys in reserve that basically never saw the board because I all but tabled him turn 1 with really good rolls and he surrendered afterwards.
I would generally recommend against shooting twice with a morkanaut if you have a SSAG or even lootas your CP is better spent there. With the +1 to hit though that might change./
tulun wrote: Orks must be spoiled for anti tank if turning our Tankbustas into the rough equivalent of assault 1 lascannons (boom boys) is considered 'meh'.
It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.
Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.
I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)
I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally
PiñaColada wrote: I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)
I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally
Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.
Unless you can put KMB on them, mini-mek are useless though, same for small unit of kommandos. They can't hold an objective, they can't hurt anything, can't deny area or block movement or do anything else. You would never, ever take meks or kommandoz outside of a brigade, and I don't see "you gain 2 CP" changing that.
Tankbustas are a but too expensive, as much as the rokkit they wield. IMHO, rokkits should be 8-9 pts. Making tankbustas 13-14 pts each.
That said, I feel PA has been patching up things that should have been like that, rule wise from the start.
An example, klever spanner. A spanner is the equivalent to an exarch or a sargeant. However, the former 2 get their special rules for free and we need to pay 1-2cps for what it should have been its hability.
Superboss or supermeks stratagems, more of the same. Things that should have come by default but instead we need to pay CPs.
On a side note. Am I the only one that misses a stratagem called "Bully Boys"? 0CP: if Ghazghkull is in your warlord a unit of nobs or MANz get +1 WS
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have serious problems deciding what to include in the elite slot for the brigade.
MANZ are a stample, otherwise, finding cheap and useful units is close to impossible. I conclude, minimeks and komandos are bad, but alas, the only cheap option.
It is a shame minimeks with kmb have been indexated. I really liked them.
The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.
Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.
PiñaColada wrote: I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)
I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally
Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.
I don't know about the Wartrike as "mandatory", unless you're purely talking theme. Unless you're running a bonebreaka blitz brigade, or the decidedly un-ES melee dread mob, the wartrike doesn't do much for ES that the bikerboss doesn't also do.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.
Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.
Fluff-wise a unit of Goff MANz near Thrakka automatically turns into Bully Boyz: They get additional attacks, ignore morale, re-roll ones and have exploding sixes
I really miss the option to make a unit of Nobz/MANz troops from 5th. This would open up so many builds...
It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.
Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.
They are very accurate vs vehicles. They have a permanent visions lol. Toss em in a chinork and they have a 40" range, 50" if you're Evil Suns without a shooting penalty.
The big thing is they overperform vs vehicles. I play against vehicles constantly, including Wave Serpents, with a -1 damage modifier, so their cost hasn't really bothered me. They've won me games a lot.
If you rarely see units like that, though, I can see why you might be indifferent to them. And they do, like all of this style of play, come with the cost of protecting them whether that's grot shields or a transport.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.
Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.
Fluff-wise a unit of Goff MANz near Thrakka automatically turns into Bully Boyz: They get additional attacks, ignore morale, re-roll ones and have exploding sixes
I really miss the option to make a unit of Nobz/MANz troops from 5th. This would open up so many builds...
That argument is valid for ANY Goff unit. No, what I mean is a bodyguard. Exclusive one.
Personal wish would have been 1Cp give +1 to hit to one nob/meganob unit (klan free), but was sincerely expecting something along the line of my first suggestioon.
Emicrania wrote: Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?
I mean...for fluff and for fun? absolutely. competitively? you are throwing points away with Manz and a Banner. I mean, you could theoretically make a decent list around 2 Tellyporta Battlewagons loaded with Manz and then Da Jumping the Waaagh Banner to be close enough to help out.
Emicrania wrote: Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?
I mean...for fluff and for fun? absolutely. competitively? you are throwing points away with Manz and a Banner. I mean, you could theoretically make a decent list around 2 Tellyporta Battlewagons loaded with Manz and then Da Jumping the Waaagh Banner to be close enough to help out.
I don't even know if it's ever worth it. Daisy chaining back, if you lose like 2 MANz in CC, you're basically netting almost no benefit.
Emicrania wrote: Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?
I also think that unfortunately that in addition to what others have said, the WAAAGH! Banner detracts from what the MANZ are mainly for, which is establishing a solid foothold on an objective and being hard to shift, especially in cover. They're one of the few Ork units that rely more on their durability than their offense, and investing points into buffing them into hitting better means you're using them for the wrong role. The +1 damage to their CC is certainly a good buff to that, but it's not something I'd bank on, especially since you can't do it for both units.
I think if you don’t want more to field more than 10, then bad moon meganobz can really do some good tanking with a bad moon weirdboy making them 1+.
If I wanted to field 20 Manz I would make them tin heads though. Clear some bubble wrap with gorkanaut and a unit of boyz turn 1, then turn two you Da jump one unit of 10 Manz and TP the other unit of 10 Manz. And hope you make a charge.
Of course you can go evil sunz Manz instead. But I would want to go with Manz hitting on 3s not 4s if I was fielding 20
Tellyport them in transport or use a transport in any way is pointless. Either you get them in combat i T3, or your transport explode on the way. And you have a serious problem to get them out due their large bases and 3” limit. And they stuck somewehre in the midle.
There are 3 ways how to use them.
- Camp them on objective.
- Hold the line againts the CC army and keep your SMG/lootas and SAG firing.
- tellyport 2 or more min 5MAN units of Evil sunz on the same place. Than you have a chance to get at least one of them into the combat. And they are very competitive in CC. Doublekillsaw MANz can deal very well with this Storm shield bastards.
I made some experiments with banner and MANz couple of times and the problem is - how to keep them together? It works only in defence line scenario and even in this scenario with 9 MANz on the table, it seems to me better to buy 2 more MANz than one Banner.
Emicrania wrote: Do you guys reckon a banner is worth his price in a 20 MANz list?
I also think that unfortunately that in addition to what others have said, the WAAAGH! Banner detracts from what the MANZ are mainly for, which is establishing a solid foothold on an objective and being hard to shift, especially in cover. They're one of the few Ork units that rely more on their durability than their offense, and investing points into buffing them into hitting better means you're using them for the wrong role. The +1 damage to their CC is certainly a good buff to that, but it's not something I'd bank on, especially since you can't do it for both units.
This. And honestly, if you are already bringing 20 MANz, I'd rather try to make Thrakka work in that list than bring a banner, as MANz is the only thing he actually has any synergy with.
PiñaColada wrote: I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)
I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally
Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.
I don't know about the Wartrike as "mandatory", unless you're purely talking theme. Unless you're running a bonebreaka blitz brigade, or the decidedly un-ES melee dread mob, the wartrike doesn't do much for ES that the bikerboss doesn't also do.
Yea I was absolutely talking about theme. The Deffkilla isn't a good unit competitively at 120pts imo.
It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.
Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.
They are very accurate vs vehicles. They have a permanent visions lol. Toss em in a chinork and they have a 40" range, 50" if you're Evil Suns without a shooting penalty.
The big thing is they overperform vs vehicles. I play against vehicles constantly, including Wave Serpents, with a -1 damage modifier, so their cost hasn't really bothered me. They've won me games a lot.
If you rarely see units like that, though, I can see why you might be indifferent to them. And they do, like all of this style of play, come with the cost of protecting them whether that's grot shields or a transport.
Yea the thing is the transport stops their biggest potential damage increases in double shoot and grenades and Grot Shields means your Grots have to be closer than the bustas to the enemy so 23" away minimum. They just don't synergise as well as Loota's that can fire across the board or Flash Gits (that are sturdier and benefit better from loot it.
Jidmah wrote: Unless you can put KMB on them, mini-mek are useless though, same for small unit of kommandos. They can't hold an objective, they can't hurt anything, can't deny area or block movement or do anything else. You would never, ever take meks or kommandoz outside of a brigade, and I don't see "you gain 2 CP" changing that.
Eh, I think kommandos are decent as their small footprint makes them easy to sneak in if your opponent has been sloppy with deepstrike denying and as ES the have a good chance of making their charge. I'd argue that they're still good for objectives in several cases, it's not always that your opponent stands on every single one that you're after and even then it's not like those units are always obsec. They're unlikely to do much damage but 5 deepstriking ork boyz with tankbusta bomb is a pretty good deal for 40 points IMO. You're right about the minimek though, I wouldn't take him if I'm not running a brigade. He's a decent choice if you have MANZ in a transport as you can get a ammo runt to take the hit if it blows up. But yeah, it's a shame he only has a pistol. I'd love it if you could give him a KMB or snazzgun but he's pretty cheap and I run plenty of vehicles so at least he almost always get some repairs in. As I said, I don't really want another HQ so it's not just the extra 2CP but I'm also effectively trading a lot of the points between the 6th HQ and some of the elite slots.
PiñaColada wrote: Eh, I think kommandos are decent as their small footprint makes them easy to sneak in if your opponent has been sloppy with deepstrike denying and as ES the have a good chance of making their charge. I'd argue that they're still good for objectives in several cases, it's not always that your opponent stands on every single one that you're after and even then it's not like those units are always obsec.
They're also decent brigade fillers in Deathskullz as they're obsec, a squad of 5 can pop on an isolated/ill-defended objective and hold/contest better.
whembly wrote: Hey guys... I have a massive "pile of shame" of orks that I can kitbash quite a bit of Smasha Gunz.
What's the optimal number of Smashas in a 2000pt list? I can conceivably build 18, but that seems waaay overkill.
Thanks!
Competitively, the best conceivable build is....18 smasha guns. 594pts and you have arguably the best artillery in the game spammed to the max! I usually bring 8-10 but thats more to do with cost than anything else. I am debating buying 1 or 2 more mekgun boxes and 2 more trukkz to kitbash 6 more.
Yep. Grotznik cannot heal Ghaz with a medisquig, as he can only heal deff skulls characters with it. But pretty much every review talking about how great Thrakka is also missed that.
IMO, list #3 seems to be the most likely to actually do anything, #1 has too little shooting and #2 is kind of all over the place. 20 MANz+Thrakka+tripple burna bommers is just too many points for too few models.
I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.
I pretty much 100% agree. Only other upside for 3 bommas is recon points(ITC) and potentially moveblocking melee armies.
yukishiro1 wrote: I really don't see triple burna-bommers being a competitive choice. It's just too many points tied up in a unit that does basically nothing besides toss out a few mortal wounds and then die. You can't even reliably get a good second drop with them if they live because of the way their movement works. So they really are a one-and-done kind of unit. I can see the value in having one because it can force your opponent to play differently. But I don't think having more than one is worth it.
I never had an issue with dropping both bombs on valuable targets - IF they survive for a second bombing run, which they usually don't. Obviously, my primary interest is bombing and 'eadbutting stuff with them, but drawing fire from my morkanaut and buggies onto the bommers is also a huge part. I don't think they have place in an infantry-heavy list.
Personally, I think a pyromaniacs battalion with two bommers might be the better choice, because the investment isn't as big and you get CP out of it. I'm just torn as what to put in as the second HQ, as I do want the maniacal seizure power for one of my warp heads. Too bad the mess of a KFF mek is clan-locked, I'm seriously thinking about fielding a MA mek now.
I think two is ok, the second one can (hopefully) finish the job turn two.
I say that but when I write army lists, my burnas always end up being axed because they have a niche role, and I need points for units which have a "main function".
I can't even fit one in ATM... I blame those mek gunz, 33 points for such a great backfield unit, when you have 12-18 of these you really just need the rest of your points to be able to push forward, and be able to clear large units (the only thing smashas and three SAGs can't clear really) or beefed up IH intercessors, or RG centurions. I think we can clear actualy clear paladin squads but that remains to be tested (18 + 3 Death skull SAG surely can, or at least make the paladin squad drop to a low enough number so as to not be a huge threat anymore) .
It's still luck-based as someone with hot rolls can just ignore all that.
I've had a similar (albeit less competitive) problem with 3x Victrix Honour Guard or large units of Death Wing Knights. In some games they just pop as planed, in other games they tank 1k+ points of ork shooting for two rounds, which essentially makes you lose the game. You need a reliable way to handle those kind of units, and I think burna bommers can provide something like that for certain lists.
I think the burna bomber puts out a lot of mortal wounds for its cost essential ya 3+ vs infantry for a mortal wound per model followed by 3 mortal wounds to every unit within 6in (which is huge) is a ton of mortal wounds for an alpha strike on turn 1 and well worth the cost of 132 points and 1 cp....
Another burna bomber is also decent but yes diminishing returns when it can drop another bomb and explode in your opponents deployment zone and take out all those pesky thunder fire cannons or whatever else is in your opponents deployment zone. It’s likely still worth 132points and another command point...
That third bomber is going to be fairly junk but probably is dead already anyway.. I don’t expect it would have survived 3 turns regardless abd was likely taken just for redundancy. But it has no bombs left and you likely don’t have CP left on turn 3. You also probably have units engaged in combat turn 3. You can give this one skorcha missles and that helps it’s shooting a little now but essentially the third bomber is waste of points and will likely do nothing but die.
Bombers are great for a gunline ork army spreading destruction in your opponents deployment zone you just don’t want any of your units near where they explode.
But I agree I wish I could take 1-2 max pyromaniac bombers without having to waste more points on units I don’t need. But the choice is either 3 bombers or a wartrike, a big Mek w kff(that can’t protect anything but grots), 3x10 grots and a bomber for the same cost.... I guess the question is would you rather have 4 more CP and a wartrike or 2 more bombers. I personally think that second bomber is going to do a lot of damage with another eadbutt. I fully expect my opponents to focus those bombers down after the destruction caused turn 1. And with 3 bombers that’s ok.
A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?
Jidmah wrote: It's still luck-based as someone with hot rolls can just ignore all that.
I've had a similar (albeit less competitive) problem with 3x Victrix Honour Guard or large units of Death Wing Knights. In some games they just pop as planed, in other games they tank 1k+ points of ork shooting for two rounds, which essentially makes you lose the game. You need a reliable way to handle those kind of units, and I think burna bommers can provide something like that for certain lists.
Jidmah you play vehicule heavy lists so yes. So will I outside of tournaments when stuff gets back to normal. But from a highly comp perspective, I think Hordes of boyz, with the current KFF working in cc, can enable us to just swamp those units and win on objectives, even without killing them.
Which leads me to think green tide just might be able to reach absolute top tier if KFF rule doesn’t change. I know that I used to fear getting charged by some scary units with my boy mobs, but with a 5++ not so much. If a KFF stays at 55 (also unlikely) then you could even run 120 boys with 3 KFFs, a waagh banner, mad dock, and still have points for many smashas and the three DSKULLS SAGs. Doesn’t sound fun to pLay, but it seems very scary to me.
Because orks becoming pseudo plaguebearers (6+++ from painboy instead of 5+++ for PB) but with a lot more attacks, potentially boost3d by waagh banner, with backfield support through SSAG, mek gunz, and all the other stuff we have that chaos lacks, I mean when you think about it, even centurions or aggressors will have a hard time shredding 90 boys only wth their shooting. And these units are perfect candidates for our smashas hah hah.
Will the KFF still work in cc after the faq though... I fear it won’t :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nora wrote: A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?
I have been thinking about it but I personally think the Bonebreaker Forktress is a better option, being much cheaper although less (nearly as durable, if not more with the 5++). Also Bonebreaker doesn’t have a base so you can hopefully hit units on a 1st floor if a model is slightly sticking out. I think evil sunz Gorkanauts are great because they are our best chaff clearing option with either sparkly bitz or the 24 shot Gatling, but they need to avoid being exposed too much (18 wounds for 311 points is not that great in terms of durability. Playing nids, my exocrine is 12 wounds, 155 points, usually gets a -1 to be hit, and still dies every time after it shoots).
I think you are absolutely correct that boys infantry heavy board control is still the most competitive list we have. I didn’t see saga of the beast changing much.
Does that work though? Last time we played, on the table next to me there were some Deathwing Knights murdering their way through multiple units of tyranid chaff. With fury of the first they easily just charged and wiped a unit every turn, losing one model max.
I also don't think that marines have any issues shredding 90 boyz per turn with aggressors/centurions, TF cannons and intercessors. Also keep in mind that most of them have eliminators to end a forward KFF.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nora wrote: A red GORKANAUT with ORKYMATIC PISTONS and DEFFKILLA WARTRIKE support would have a fair chance of getting into CC the first turn.
8''+3''(ORKYMATIC PISTONS)+3''(EVIL SUNZ; 1'' on Move characteristic, 1'' on advance and 1'' on charge) +1d6'' with re-roll on advance and 2d6'' with re-roll on charge and the option of RAMMING SPEED stratagem.
Someone who has tryed this?
In my experience, first turn hard-hitters are usually not worth it as even the most casual players have understood that valuable stuff should not be deployed where it can easily be reached. You'll end up in combat with a screening unit and lose your model next turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: I think you are absolutely correct that boys infantry heavy board control is still the most competitive list we have. I didn’t see saga of the beast changing much.
Agree, which is sad.
However, I think that point drops on some key units like gunwagons, warbikes and the wartrike might enable that archetype to gain traction. It does works very well in less competitive environments, which means that a push in efficiency can push it into the competitive scene.
Jidmah I play nids as well as dark angels, and I can tell you that Deathwing Knight unit should have died to smite and broodlord and other short ranged nid stuff. The nid list must have been a very casual one if Deathwing knights did so much damage. Unless it was like a 10 dude squad, with chaplain support to tank the MW with the litany.
It is true the Deathwing dude with his flail doing overspill damage can clear quite a lot of chaff all by himself. But you can have like 90 gaunts the price of a 10 Deathwing Knight squad so...
I guess indeed a 10 man strong Dknight squad can clear quite a bit of stuff and tank quite hard with proper support. I should try it sometime hah hah. It is going to struggle hard against plenty of other stuff though.
That might be true for nids, but how do you stop them with orks?
Things that refuses to get crushed by weight of attacks and have many attacks themselves have given me trouble for some time now, blightlords, wraiths or bulgryns also fit that category.
So this is what I've come to as a an army that I really like that doesn't even have smasha guns!
Spoiler:
Freeboota Battalion
Weirdboy
kff mek
Badruck
30 grots
10 grots
10 grots
gunwagon
10 flash gitz
10 flash gitz
2 burna bombers
Deathskull battalion
SAG mek
weirdboy
3x 10 grots
1 burna bomber
Blood axe battalion
Weirdboy
Warboss
3 x 10 grots
The burnas are straight up auto win vs a lot of msu armor lists like pure marines and sisters.
Generally, people have to kill bombers quickly or they might just lose. So it gives the gunwagon a measure of survivability it never had.
The boomwagon TM also blows up on a 4+ which is a mixed bag because it's super bad if it blows up near your army it's devastating but you can also use it to block. an army like blood angels wants to grab a thing that can't fall back, trap it, then kill it in my turn. That's fine now, I'll blow it up and it will kill or seriously injure all those units trapping it. I also have the blood axe battalion that can let my entire army swing on whatever is trying to melee me.
You might ask, "why make the whole battalion blood axe and not just the warboss and weirdboy?"
Cause I need grots to do the melee where the boss can't be. gives me 3 more units that have the ability to stop a unit from swinging.
Back to blackboard than. I´m trying to fit Ghaz in a Freeboterz list, but I dunno ATM how durable veichle are.
What could be a good substitute for a DJ ? How are those buggies at killing chaff?
For me, the combinaton of two KBB with the random big shootas on scrapjet and the naut have done lots off chaff clearing. You don't want those big shootas, but when you have the anyways...
Flat 3 exploding wounds + exploding on a 4+ is devastating. Like I said with the wagon you can use it to block your deployment zone as well.
Also, super funny, if they "almost" kill a plane down to 3 or less wounds is flying it next to a plane you explode and trying to set them both off. It is just devastating against certain armies that don't have the bodies to stand in the proper places.
vercingatorix wrote: Flat 3 exploding wounds + exploding on a 4+ is devastating. Like I said with the wagon you can use it to block your deployment zone as well.
Also, super funny, if they "almost" kill a plane down to 3 or less wounds is flying it next to a plane you explode and trying to set them both off. It is just devastating against certain armies that don't have the bodies to stand in the proper places.
What list veichle are you tinkering for itc and would you like to discuss them somewhere else, if not here?
personally none of the buggies really feel like theyre any good at chaff clearing. KBB is 'decent' once it gets in burna range but even then not really all that amazing at it. It usually dies once it gets that close though unless there just isnt much left that can hurt it reliably (unlikely) If the Snazzwagon's kustom job didnt weaken the gun for some stupid reason a trio of Snazzies with their Kustom Job could chaff clear really nicely....but S4 AP1 isnt that big a deal for orks.
Dakkajet is probably the best vehicle at chaff clearing for the cost. Gork is good too especially with its kustomjob gun but its also almost twice as expensive as a dakkajet for marginally better shooting and a CP. Not to mention it isnt around turn1 99% of the time, dakkajets are.
vercingatorix wrote: So this is what I've come to as a an army that I really like that doesn't even have smasha guns!
Spoiler:
Freeboota Battalion
Weirdboy
kff mek
Badruck
30 grots
10 grots
10 grots
gunwagon
10 flash gitz
10 flash gitz
2 burna bombers
Deathskull battalion
SAG mek
weirdboy
3x 10 grots
1 burna bomber
Blood axe battalion
Weirdboy
Warboss
3 x 10 grots
The burnas are straight up auto win vs a lot of msu armor lists like pure marines and sisters.
Generally, people have to kill bombers quickly or they might just lose. So it gives the gunwagon a measure of survivability it never had.
The boomwagon TM also blows up on a 4+ which is a mixed bag because it's super bad if it blows up near your army it's devastating but you can also use it to block. an army like blood angels wants to grab a thing that can't fall back, trap it, then kill it in my turn. That's fine now, I'll blow it up and it will kill or seriously injure all those units trapping it. I also have the blood axe battalion that can let my entire army swing on whatever is trying to melee me.
You might ask, "why make the whole battalion blood axe and not just the warboss and weirdboy?"
Cause I need grots to do the melee where the boss can't be. gives me 3 more units that have the ability to stop a unit from swinging.
In your list you rely on the 20 Flash Gitz to clear chaff ? Do you start with one in the gun wagon ? I guess the 30 strong Grot unit is for da jumping in front of a unit of Gitz ?
Interesting list I must say. Looks like a modified version of the mass Grot + F Gitz lists we used to see in 2019, minus the mek gunz to trigger the freebooter trait
vercingatorix wrote: So this is what I've come to as a an army that I really like that doesn't even have smasha guns!
Spoiler:
Freeboota Battalion
Weirdboy
kff mek
Badruck
30 grots
10 grots
10 grots
gunwagon
10 flash gitz
10 flash gitz
2 burna bombers
Deathskull battalion
SAG mek
weirdboy
3x 10 grots
1 burna bomber
Blood axe battalion
Weirdboy
Warboss
3 x 10 grots
The burnas are straight up auto win vs a lot of msu armor lists like pure marines and sisters.
Generally, people have to kill bombers quickly or they might just lose. So it gives the gunwagon a measure of survivability it never had.
The boomwagon TM also blows up on a 4+ which is a mixed bag because it's super bad if it blows up near your army it's devastating but you can also use it to block. an army like blood angels wants to grab a thing that can't fall back, trap it, then kill it in my turn. That's fine now, I'll blow it up and it will kill or seriously injure all those units trapping it. I also have the blood axe battalion that can let my entire army swing on whatever is trying to melee me.
You might ask, "why make the whole battalion blood axe and not just the warboss and weirdboy?"
Cause I need grots to do the melee where the boss can't be. gives me 3 more units that have the ability to stop a unit from swinging.
In your list you rely on the 20 Flash Gitz to clear chaff ? Do you start with one in the gun wagon ? I guess the 30 strong Grot unit is for da jumping in front of a unit of Gitz ?
Interesting list I must say. Looks like a modified version of the mass Grot + F Gitz lists we used to see in 2019, minus the mek gunz to trigger the freebooter trait
I have 12 shots from the wagon's big shootas as well as 3 planes that shoot 12 shots each, half of them hitting on 4s. So it's not awful chaff clearing before relying on the gitz but also, why would I need to clear chaffe?
You clear chaffe to get at good stuff with melee units or hard hitting short ranged (12-18 inch) shooting, all my stuff is shooting and exploding so there's less of an urgent need to get through it.
and yes, one squad in wagon, one walking.
I took the mek guns out cause I was bored with them and they also had a tendency to take up too much damn room in TTS. I never had quite that much of an issue in real life so I might not play this as readily when tournaments open back up. But given the realities of the platform, having a second unit in wagon that didn't take up space gives me a lot more options in deployment to deploy away from scary slaneesh or ravenguard stuff.
Well IMHO chaff needs clearing because it sits on objectives, and since orks offer easy kills, ork players I see usually lose if the opponent sits on objectives all games killing squishy grot mobs and stuff (like mek gunz, which is one reason not to bring any).
Typical green tides clear stuff out of objectives rather easily, albeit the tough SM stuff currently dominating the meta. They also fail to clear tyranid warriors hah hah and a few other things.
Our new ork toys are great but big shootas hitting on 4s and 5s don’t scare much say plague bearers, gaunt carpets, etc.
When it comes to clearing chaff I am a huge fan of my Scrapjets. I bring 3 to most games which gives me 36 Big Shoota shots, 18hitting on 4s and 18 on 5s and since they are freeboota, if my Mek gunz kill anything before the scrapjets open up they are hitting on 3s and 4s. In a pinch they are also good at starting the +1 to hit by killing those pesky guard units or minimum unit of scouts.
I brought out my Morkanaut against my friend's tri Lord of skulls army....big mistake his 3 LoW's killed Morky turn 1 which left me in a bit of trouble. He eventually won the game with me killing most of his army but him holding the objectives and winning on points. I am thinking of replacing him with a Big Mek KFF and then spending the other 280ish points on either more surprises. Maybe some Tankbusta's that can be Da jumped to suicide something. Would have definitely helped out vs those super heavies.
vercingatorix wrote: So this is what I've come to as a an army that I really like that doesn't even have smasha guns!
Spoiler:
Freeboota Battalion
Weirdboy
kff mek
Badruck
30 grots
10 grots
10 grots
gunwagon
10 flash gitz
10 flash gitz
2 burna bombers
Deathskull battalion
SAG mek
weirdboy
3x 10 grots
1 burna bomber
Blood axe battalion
Weirdboy
Warboss
3 x 10 grots
The burnas are straight up auto win vs a lot of msu armor lists like pure marines and sisters.
Generally, people have to kill bombers quickly or they might just lose. So it gives the gunwagon a measure of survivability it never had.
The boomwagon TM also blows up on a 4+ which is a mixed bag because it's super bad if it blows up near your army it's devastating but you can also use it to block. an army like blood angels wants to grab a thing that can't fall back, trap it, then kill it in my turn. That's fine now, I'll blow it up and it will kill or seriously injure all those units trapping it. I also have the blood axe battalion that can let my entire army swing on whatever is trying to melee me.
You might ask, "why make the whole battalion blood axe and not just the warboss and weirdboy?"
Cause I need grots to do the melee where the boss can't be. gives me 3 more units that have the ability to stop a unit from swinging.
It's quite similar to lists I end-up with when tinkering about using many Flash Gitz, Nobz and Battlewagons (and Snikrot) because I just love the models. I also miss the "Nobz as troops" rule of yore, and kinda try to circumvent its disappearance.
You obviously put the SSAG in DS to benefit from the rerolls and Maniacal Seizure, but have you thought about moving it to Freebotaz? The advice is usually go big or go home with them, but here having Badrukk, 20 Flash Gitz, the SSAG and a Gunwagon, that's quite a lot of options to decide who benefits from being the trigger and who from having the trait active. Not sure it compensates losing DS benefits but at least it'd make a fun firebase, lots of high S high D accurate shots
Also, the deathskull sniper trait. I just won a game today entirely from that, Yolo'd him across the table, killed ycarne, no more borne for greatness secondary.
vercingatorix wrote: Also, the deathskull sniper trait. I just won a game today entirely from that, Yolo'd him across the table, killed ycarne, no more borne for greatness secondary.
how did you snipe him across the table? the sniper only works if the target is 18" or closer iirc
The only HQ that can even attempt to get use out of it is a Tellyporta Big Mek. Which WOULD be useful if that thing did at least 2 damage and/or slayed based on wounds remaining, not wound stat. I've been meaning to at least TRY that guy. Especially with the new Da Kleverest Boss strat, he's still capable of holding his own in melee now and a 2+ armor is almost as good as a 5++ in most melee, if not better. Just behave like a proper ork and bully things that cant punch back reliably.
The only HQ that can even attempt to get use out of it is a Tellyporta Big Mek. Which WOULD be useful if that thing did at least 2 damage and/or slayed based on wounds remaining, not wound stat.
I've been meaning to at least TRY that guy. Especially with the new Da Kleverest Boss strat, he's still capable of holding his own in melee now and a 2+ armor is almost as good as a 5++ in most melee, if not better. Just behave like a proper ork and bully things that cant punch back reliably.
I actually think Da Kleverest Boss isn't too bad. Shame that the 55 point Big Mek also gives an invul save in CC which makes it extra tempting.
But you can just imagine a Warboss on Bike (or walking), MA Big Mek, and Mad Dok grotsnik are all juicy, crumpy targets for Fists of Gork. The main reason I don't generally like it is that I don't really have redundant targets. Combine all 3 of these, and it feels a bit nicer to take it.
The only HQ that can even attempt to get use out of it is a Tellyporta Big Mek. Which WOULD be useful if that thing did at least 2 damage and/or slayed based on wounds remaining, not wound stat.
I've been meaning to at least TRY that guy. Especially with the new Da Kleverest Boss strat, he's still capable of holding his own in melee now and a 2+ armor is almost as good as a 5++ in most melee, if not better. Just behave like a proper ork and bully things that cant punch back reliably.
he jumped the SSAg, hence why he said he yolo;d him across the table. I've done this a couple of times, most notably with my SSAG and my friends Immotekh haha.
If only one of the Kustom jobs gave a warlord trait to a vehicle. Let us have our own tank commanders or buggie commanders. Could lead to some fun little nonsense. Also I can't remember but are you locked to the two warlord traits from the stompa mob when you use it to make a stompa a character?
cody.d. wrote: If only one of the Kustom jobs gave a warlord trait to a vehicle. Let us have our own tank commanders or buggie commanders. Could lead to some fun little nonsense. Also I can't remember but are you locked to the two warlord traits from the stompa mob when you use it to make a stompa a character?
Yes-the only two warlord traits a Stompa can get are from the Specialist Detachment.
Damn, could you imagine how stupid it would be to give a stompa the sniper trait? Just walk up the field then aim those massive cannons down at some poor imperial officer bastard and nuke him.
So I got a lot of good feedback from you guys on this list.
But it feels short of CPs and some don’t like the idea of airwing bombers. So how is this variant switching the air wing for a battalion.
Spoiler:
starts with 18cp
2 CP warboss on bike- da biggest boss, extra relic
1 CP for Vigilus
1 CP killa kan kustom job- shiny gubbins
3 CP gorkanaut- kustom job- slug gubbin, teleport
1 CP gunwagon- kustom job- da boomer
1 CP shockjump dragsta kustom job- whirlygig
My list
Death skull detachment (vigilus-dreadmob)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk (and grot)
weirdboy- mechanical seizure
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
Gunwagon- da boomer
5x tankbustas- in wagon
Shockjump dragsta- whirlygig
Specialist mob- pyromaniacs battalion
Warboss on bike- da biggest boss, da killa klaw
Weirdboy- da jump
3x10 grots
Burnabomber
Useful in game strategems (9left)
Vigilus shoot twice on gork or SSAG (kustom ammo)- cost 2cp
Flying headbutt -1
Temperamental shockdrive -1
Ramming speed on gorkanaut - cost 2cp
Wildfire -1
Grot shields on SSAG bigmek -1
Orks are never beaten on warboss on bike- cost 2cp
I’m going to need to break out the 3rd ed plastic Gretchin to play this list. any suggestions?
+ Heavy Support + Killa Kans [14 PL, 252pts]: Sparkly Bitz
6 x Killa Kan: Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha
Killa Kans [14 PL, 210pts]: Dirty Gubbinz
6 x Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
Killa Kans [14 PL, 246pts]: Orkymatic Pistons
3 x Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
3 x Killa Kan: Kan Klaw, Skorcha
+ Flyer + Burna-bommer [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
Tried a game out in TTS using the above list. It's a bit thrown together to just experiment with some of the new Saga of the Beast rules. I played against an Eldar soup list in the Seize Ground ITC Mission. A tl;dr of the game was I had strong board control and was able to max engineers, get the bonus point, and get 3 points in recon, and 3 points in big game hunter by the end of turn 3. Unfortunately I didn't have enough answers to their threats (see lack of AT outside of melee), so my opponent was able to turn the tide on me in turn 4 and table me shortly after.
A summary of how some of the units went:
Burna Bommers were good but I had never used them before so I had a lot of piloting errors. One of my Burna Bommers I planned to Flying 'Eadbutt right into my opponents deployment (I was going first), unfortunately he Agents of Vect'd it. I naively hadn't thought too much about it's positioning and it only had 2 eligible locations to move the next turn, which my opponent denied by placing units there. I did try out the wildfire stratagem as well, and I liked it. I was able to use it to target a unit that was just out of my flight path and deal a few mortal wounds. The second Bommer did headbutt successfully the next turn and killed two characters. I think 2 Burna Bommers is an okay amount to run, at least 1 feels like an auto include.
Killa Kans were positive and enabled a lot of my board control. I'm used to pumping them with support units to get them to do anything but my characters were mostly out of range of them this game as I had to spread them wide. Tin Eads was fantastic in buffing them in melee, the all performed great in when they got stuck into melee.
Sparkly gubbinz is honestly not worth it on Kans. BS3+ sounds great but it's only 6 rokkits or 6 big shootas. If you run Nauts then they'd be a better a target for the stratagem. If you don't run Nauts then there are half a dozen other Ork units that could replace that unit of Kans for a similar cost and they'll have a better shooting output. To add to that, I experimented with running skorchas and rokkits on Kans and it was not good. I think the best choice is to run big shootas across the board for Kans, it's the cheapest option and you'll get the most value out of it.
Orkymatic Pistons was great, I tried to push for the turn 1 charge with them and almost got it but needed a CP re-roll which was denied by Agents of Vect. I think running the Wartrike for the advance and charge was superfluous. 9" move is pretty decent movement but realistically you won't get that turn 1 charge unless your opponent presents themselves to you. It does mean that you will be able to zip these Kans into ideal positions a lot easier. I think a loose comparison can be drawn between these and Sydonian Dragoons.
Dirty Gubbinz worked great on the Kans as well. Since CA19 I've been saying that Kans have the durability and an additional -1 to hit just further improves that. I had these guys claim an objective turn 1 and then push around into enemy lines slowly over the next two turns. A Big Mek piggy backing with these guys would make it a real hard unit to shift.
For supporting the Killa Kans: Wartrike wasn't as necessary as I thought, Banner nob was good but not necessary thanks to Tin 'Eads, Big Mek was good, and Warpath was great. Next time I try Kans I will scrap the Wartrike, banner nob, and 3rd unit of Kans.
I also slapped Goark's Roar onto the Wartrike, it was good and even though it was only relevant for one turn it was enough for me to kill a character.
Ghazghull and Makari was a lot of I think I need to experiment more with Ghaz. My opponent had a good toolset for killing Ghaz and spent turns 2 and 3 killing him. 2 Psychic phases, 2 shooting phases, and some overwatch. I tried footslogging Ghaz but he was a bit slower than I wanted. I think something like Tellyporta to drop him in behind an advanced unit of boyz or meganobz turn 2 or 3 would be how I want to run him next time. Another thing I want to try as well is just running Ghaz in a Naut heavy list for the sake of target saturation.
Makari is interesting, he ate a lot of shots and was actually one of my last models standing on the board. He had trouble keeping up with Ghaz when it came to charging, which was a bit of a problem as his value feels like it dips when he's not giving Ghaz the FNP. I'm not certain if the cost of losing out on a non-Goff klan is worth running Makari. I like the little dude though so I might squeeze him into a few more games.
Outside of new stuff, a few huge mistakes I made even in list building was not having Da Jump or any units along the lines of Flash Gitz, Lootas, Mek Gunz, or Tankbustas.
gungo wrote: But it feels short of CPs and some don’t like the idea of airwing bombers.
I think people misunderstood this - quite a few suggestions tried putting an airwing into an otherwise all infantry list. I do not believe this would work because there is no synergy between the actually pretty decent plane chassis hordes of boyz and therefore your enemy's anti-tank would be able to wipe all bommer by turn two with not much gained.
In a list like yours, you would force a pretty hard decision on your opponent by making him decide between the -1 to hit planes which are highly dangerous even at 1 wound or your gunwagon, nauts or buggies.
My list
Looks good just two things:
- What's the point of those tank bustas? They feel a little random to me.
- If you have the model, I believe that a morkanaut is a bette choice than 6x rokkit kanz.
Tried a game out in TTS using the above list. It's a bit thrown together to just experiment with some of the new Saga of the Beast rules. I played against an Eldar soup list in the Seize Ground ITC Mission. A tl;dr of the game was I had strong board control and was able to max engineers, get the bonus point, and get 3 points in recon, and 3 points in big game hunter by the end of turn 3. Unfortunately I didn't have enough answers to their threats (see lack of AT outside of melee), so my opponent was able to turn the tide on me in turn 4 and table me shortly after.
A summary of how some of the units went: Burna Bommers were good but I had never used them before so I had a lot of piloting errors. One of my Burna Bommers I planned to Flying 'Eadbutt right into my opponents deployment (I was going first), unfortunately he Agents of Vect'd it. I naively hadn't thought too much about it's positioning and it only had 2 eligible locations to move the next turn, which my opponent denied by placing units there. I did try out the wildfire stratagem as well, and I liked it. I was able to use it to target a unit that was just out of my flight path and deal a few mortal wounds. The second Bommer did headbutt successfully the next turn and killed two characters. I think 2 Burna Bommers is an okay amount to run, at least 1 feels like an auto include.
Killa Kans were positive and enabled a lot of my board control. I'm used to pumping them with support units to get them to do anything but my characters were mostly out of range of them this game as I had to spread them wide. Tin Eads was fantastic in buffing them in melee, the all performed great in when they got stuck into melee. Sparkly gubbinz is honestly not worth it on Kans. BS3+ sounds great but it's only 6 rokkits or 6 big shootas. If you run Nauts then they'd be a better a target for the stratagem. If you don't run Nauts then there are half a dozen other Ork units that could replace that unit of Kans for a similar cost and they'll have a better shooting output. To add to that, I experimented with running skorchas and rokkits on Kans and it was not good. I think the best choice is to run big shootas across the board for Kans, it's the cheapest option and you'll get the most value out of it. Orkymatic Pistons was great, I tried to push for the turn 1 charge with them and almost got it but needed a CP re-roll which was denied by Agents of Vect. I think running the Wartrike for the advance and charge was superfluous. 9" move is pretty decent movement but realistically you won't get that turn 1 charge unless your opponent presents themselves to you. It does mean that you will be able to zip these Kans into ideal positions a lot easier. I think a loose comparison can be drawn between these and Sydonian Dragoons. Dirty Gubbinz worked great on the Kans as well. Since CA19 I've been saying that Kans have the durability and an additional -1 to hit just further improves that. I had these guys claim an objective turn 1 and then push around into enemy lines slowly over the next two turns. A Big Mek piggy backing with these guys would make it a real hard unit to shift. For supporting the Killa Kans: Wartrike wasn't as necessary as I thought, Banner nob was good but not necessary thanks to Tin 'Eads, Big Mek was good, and Warpath was great. Next time I try Kans I will scrap the Wartrike, banner nob, and 3rd unit of Kans. I also slapped Goark's Roar onto the Wartrike, it was good and even though it was only relevant for one turn it was enough for me to kill a character.
Ghazghull and Makari was a lot of I think I need to experiment more with Ghaz. My opponent had a good toolset for killing Ghaz and spent turns 2 and 3 killing him. 2 Psychic phases, 2 shooting phases, and some overwatch. I tried footslogging Ghaz but he was a bit slower than I wanted. I think something like Tellyporta to drop him in behind an advanced unit of boyz or meganobz turn 2 or 3 would be how I want to run him next time. Another thing I want to try as well is just running Ghaz in a Naut heavy list for the sake of target saturation. Makari is interesting, he ate a lot of shots and was actually one of my last models standing on the board. He had trouble keeping up with Ghaz when it came to charging, which was a bit of a problem as his value feels like it dips when he's not giving Ghaz the FNP. I'm not certain if the cost of losing out on a non-Goff klan is worth running Makari. I like the little dude though so I might squeeze him into a few more games.
Outside of new stuff, a few huge mistakes I made even in list building was not having Da Jump or any units along the lines of Flash Gitz, Lootas, Mek Gunz, or Tankbustas.
Thanks for the report. Forcing your opponent to vect twice in turn one is actually a pretty good thing. It sounds like if you tune that list a bit (and drop Ghaz ) it might actually be very promising. Just don't try mixing lootas in with that kind of army, I've tried to do so twice, and it was very unsuccessful, losing me the game once and forcing me into a draw on the second game. Not only do they burn through too many CP, but you also put the gretchin you need for board control in harms way. Lootas just don't work well with vehicle-heavy lists. If you drop your shooty kans and Thrakka, you should have plenty space to fill with scrapjets and/or SJD. It sounds like those are exactly what you're missing right now.
Quick query;
I've seen a lot of people saying that the new KFF mek from saga of the beast is only 55 points, but battlescribe says that it's 75 points.
Can anyone with the book in front of them clarify which is correct?
Afrodactyl wrote: Quick query;
I've seen a lot of people saying that the new KFF mek from saga of the beast is only 55 points, but battlescribe says that it's 75 points.
Can anyone with the book in front of them clarify which is correct?
it's a bit up in the air now. the current big mek is 75 pts but the KFF upgrade where it is optional (wazbomb, mork, MA big mek) costs 20 pts leaving the base cost of the big mek 55 pts as is right now since he has to take the kff. the question on everyone's mind is did the base cost of the big mek get dropped 20 pts, or did GW make yet another error with a new set of rules.
Afrodactyl wrote: Quick query;
I've seen a lot of people saying that the new KFF mek from saga of the beast is only 55 points, but battlescribe says that it's 75 points.
Can anyone with the book in front of them clarify which is correct?
As explained multiple times, the datasheet from Saga is a mess.
RAW, the KFF mek does not have the KFF wargear and has no way of obtaining it. Therefore it's impossible to pay 20 points for it.
Luckily, they also fethed up the KFF rule for that one model not in one instance, but in four:
1) the save works in melee now
2) aura is clan-locked
3) it no longer protects the model's transport
4) it does not actually require the big mek to be equipped with the KFF wargear
So if you buy the "Big Mek with Kustom Force Field", you get a 55 point model with a slugga, choppa and stikkbombs that has an aura which works completely different from the piece of wargear we know.
Yep, play them quite a bit. Unfortunately I haven't gotten any post-PA games in against them as burna bommas seem to be a good counter to their ultra durable infantry. I've mostly faced them as paladin bombs and MW spam and haven't really played much against the no LoS paladin blob though..
Their spamming of MWs suck to be the recipient of but even so, we're probably the lucky ones as our wounds are worth less than many other armies. Really, between their difficult tricks of getting -1 damage, can only be wounded on 4+, negative to hit modifiers, great invulns and get to strike in CC even if they died etc etc, we really need MWs ourselves to bring them down IMO.
So, just as a very general tip, I'd say to look for any MW spamming potential in our book to try and counteract them. Normal strike marines (even with some buffs) aren't that hard to bring down but paladins need to be curb stomped with everything we have (or ignored but that's super risky)
As explained multiple times, the datasheet from Saga is a mess.
Sorry for asking again. I've read it so many times over the last few pages and just glossed over it because I haven't been thinking about fitting a mek into my list.
Big Mek is such a mess i wouldnt even consider it until the FAQ drops.
Which hopefully we still get this weekend-ish despite the current circumstances. GW is clearly still there in the offices at least since articles keep coming out.
Vineheart01 wrote: Big Mek is such a mess i wouldnt even consider it until the FAQ drops.
Which hopefully we still get this weekend-ish despite the current circumstances. GW is clearly still there in the offices at least since articles keep coming out.
Im thinking of giving that warlord trait another try on the wartrike. With the gork's roar job giving it extra range and upping the flamer to an automatic 6 hit, I can see him actually having the reach to blow up characters and get away with it.
Jidmah wrote: Im thinking of giving that warlord trait another try on the wartrike. With the gork's roar job giving it extra range and upping the flamer to an automatic 6 hit, I can see him actually having the reach to blow up characters and get away with it.
Nota bad idea ! Especially now that our anti tank has become even better, perhaps big Killa boss on the SSAG is not that mandatory anymore. Also if you can reach a character with burna bomber Exploding (who knows...) you will need something to finish said character off (most targets have 4 or more wounds)
My issue with that is its still only 12" which is pretty short and puts your warlord in an easily gangable position.
In theory though it would be rude as thats either 6 S5 AP1 autohits or 2 Meltas to a character's face. Especially with Deathskullz rerolls that can kill characters w/o a high invul really easily. I just wonder if you can attack more than once without getting dogpiled that close up.
Ive never had the wartrike even remotely close to combat and not immediately die. Kinda why i stopped making him my warlord, even though the warlord traits mega help him out.
Vineheart01 wrote: My issue with that is its still only 12" which is pretty short and puts your warlord in an easily gangable position.
In theory though it would be rude as thats either 6 S5 AP1 autohits or 2 Meltas to a character's face. Especially with Deathskullz rerolls that can kill characters w/o a high invul really easily. I just wonder if you can attack more than once without getting dogpiled that close up.
Ive never had the wartrike even remotely close to combat and not immediately die. Kinda why i stopped making him my warlord, even though the warlord traits mega help him out.
Yes but with 2 CPs, when he gets killed (and unless he gets killed in CC), then you can use the strat Orks is neva beatn and do some more sneaky sniping, huh huh huh. Because of character status, and the strat doesn’t specify infantry.
Ok you do give the kill the warlord away, but still. Fun thing If you can pull it off
So I'm going to be making an attempt at Deathakulls with ahokkjump dragstas and mek guns. Any other quintessential deathskulls units I should bring along? I'm brand new to the codex, and have only ever played against boy spam before.
I was considering pairing it with a Badmoons detachment featuring a shiny mokanaut, shoota boyz and dakkajet for horde clearing.
weaver9 wrote: So I'm going to be making an attempt at Deathakulls with ahokkjump dragstas and mek guns. Any other quintessential deathskulls units I should bring along? I'm brand new to the codex, and have only ever played against boy spam before.
I was considering pairing it with a Badmoons detachment featuring a shiny mokanaut, shoota boyz and dakkajet for horde clearing.
Just field them as Deathskulls. DS works great for most units, including those.
You really only take BM for shoot twice on infantry like Lootas.
Vineheart01 wrote: My issue with that is its still only 12" which is pretty short and puts your warlord in an easily gangable position. In theory though it would be rude as thats either 6 S5 AP1 autohits or 2 Meltas to a character's face. Especially with Deathskullz rerolls that can kill characters w/o a high invul really easily. I just wonder if you can attack more than once without getting dogpiled that close up.
Ive never had the wartrike even remotely close to combat and not immediately die. Kinda why i stopped making him my warlord, even though the warlord traits mega help him out.
True, my wartrike now often gets away with doing its stuff because it's not the warlord, slay the warlord is a pretty big incentive to finish it off.
Well, if the pandemic ends, we have a campaign lined up and my wartrike is my main character, which allows it to get access to all kinds of insane buffs from the custom character rules. Let's see if that makes any difference
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weaver9 wrote: So I'm going to be making an attempt at Deathakulls with ahokkjump dragstas and mek guns. Any other quintessential deathskulls units I should bring along? I'm brand new to the codex, and have only ever played against boy spam before.
I was considering pairing it with a Badmoons detachment featuring a shiny mokanaut, shoota boyz and dakkajet for horde clearing.
If you don't know what to play, deff skulls is the perfect clan for you - almost every unit in the codex gets some benefit from it.
The only time you really need another clan is when you want to deep strike assault units, ES does that so much better, you can't ignore it. Bad Moons is just for getting the shoot twice stratagem - even for shoota boyz and the dakkajet the difference between deff skulls and bad moons is minimal.
8x Grot Tanks w/ KMBs = 9 KMB shots hitting on 4s with Grot Mob bonus (reroll 1s since they already have a 6++) for 321pts.
Grot Mega Tank w/ KMBs = 7x KMB shots hitting on 4s, rerolling 1s, and 1/6th chance to not be allowed to fire OR hit on 3s at the sacrifice of splitfiring for 148pts.
Megatank is T6 with 9W Grot Tank is T5 w/ 4W
Initially when i saw the Grot Mob i immediately thought 8x grot tanks with KMBs, thats 8 semi-quick (2d6 speed so random) tiny profile gits with some stupid deadly and accurate guns. But then i saw their costs....yeouch....forgot they were so expensive for some stupid reason.
Grot Mega Tanks though....half the cost of a full squad with 2 less guns and a just big enough profile to not constantly be out of LoS so the 2d6 movement doesnt shaft you sometimes. 7 KMBs for 148pts sounds pretty dope. Issue being that 1/6 chance to not be allowed to fire at all. Which happens right away so you cant just "see if i even need it" and choose it to fire with last.
I believe the clan is all about Meks, Lootas, vehicles (but not necessarily SPEED FREEK vehicles). They love mechanized gak but not necessarily about going as fast as possible.
Honestly though, it's just the best all around clan as noted. Super Lucky and a 6++ invul is just so bloody good.
Grot Mega Tanks seem fun, yeah. But if you need it to be reliable in a pinch, gotta have a CP ready for that mutiny roll. 7 KMB hitting on 4's, re-rolling ones actually seems decent.
Vineheart01 wrote: My issue with that is its still only 12" which is pretty short and puts your warlord in an easily gangable position.
In theory though it would be rude as thats either 6 S5 AP1 autohits or 2 Meltas to a character's face. Especially with Deathskullz rerolls that can kill characters w/o a high invul really easily. I just wonder if you can attack more than once without getting dogpiled that close up.
Ive never had the wartrike even remotely close to combat and not immediately die. Kinda why i stopped making him my warlord, even though the warlord traits mega help him out.
True, my wartrike now often gets away with doing its stuff because it's not the warlord, slay the warlord is a pretty big incentive to finish it off.
Well, if the pandemic ends, we have a campaign lined up and my wartrike is my main character, which allows it to get access to all kinds of insane buffs from the custom character rules. Let's see if that makes any difference
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weaver9 wrote: So I'm going to be making an attempt at Deathakulls with ahokkjump dragstas and mek guns. Any other quintessential deathskulls units I should bring along? I'm brand new to the codex, and have only ever played against boy spam before.
I was considering pairing it with a Badmoons detachment featuring a shiny mokanaut, shoota boyz and dakkajet for horde clearing.
If you don't know what to play, deff skulls is the perfect clan for you - almost every unit in the codex gets some benefit from it.
The only time you really need another clan is when you want to deep strike assault units, ES does that so much better, you can't ignore it.
Bad Moons is just for getting the shoot twice stratagem - even for shoota boyz and the dakkajet the difference between deff skulls and bad moons is minimal.
On 18 shots it seems like rerolling all ones is better than rerolling a single miss?
Even more so for the boyz? Am I missing something? I thought deathskulls can only reroll 1 hit per unit.
Deathskullz can only reroll 1 hit, 1 wound, and 1 damage roll (i.e. the D6 damage on a KMB) per unit per phase, while bad moonz reroll all hits of 1in shooting. The issue is you need 18+ shots for the math to be more comparable between the two
But even then, its barely better. And you lose the 6++, which is a big deal given nothing except MANz or the Walkers have a save to even bother mentioning, and even then AP4 stuff is common too (for...some reason).
You need a crazy amount of dakka for bad moonz to be better, e.g 30x shoota boyz or 15 lootas.
Then theres the other point of deathskullz works in melee, bad moonz doesnt. Doesnt even work in overwatch.
Vineheart01 wrote: Deathskullz can only reroll 1 hit, 1 wound, and 1 damage roll (i.e. the D6 damage on a KMB) per unit per phase, while bad moonz reroll all hits of 1in shooting.
The issue is you need 18+ shots for the math to be more comparable between the two
But even then, its barely better. And you lose the 6++, which is a big deal given nothing except MANz or the Walkers have a save to even bother mentioning, and even then AP4 stuff is common too (for...some reason).
You need a crazy amount of dakka for bad moonz to be better, e.g 30x shoota boyz or 15 lootas.
Then theres the other point of deathskullz works in melee, bad moonz doesnt. Doesnt even work in overwatch.
And with the new Deathskull psychic power, I don't even think i'd ever really want a Bad moon shoota boy. Gimme the invul save and AP-1, thanks.
I initially played bad moonz purely because my army was painted that way and i ran shooty orks anyway. I dont play competitive anyway.
But good god bad moonz takes forever to shoot with.... i actually play much faster as deathskullz AND its better lol
Morkanaut has an added benefit of Badmoonz that ANY 1s you roll you can reroll to avoid self-nuking. Statistically you shouldnt have more than 1 1 though with the KMB shots, 2-3 between all shots, but the KMBs are the main ones that actually matter due to the rerollable damage roll anyway.
Sometimes i get unlucky with my mork as deathskullz and i self-nuke because i rolled multiple 1s, but it honestly rarely happens.
Them losing the 6++ is less of an issue since they have a KFF, and melee AP4 is generally easily identified and avoided.
But then you fall back on the overall issue of deathskullz vs badmoonz imo. The 2-3 units that like being bad moonz, are almost if not equally as good as deathskullz and the other units you WILL HAVE in that detachment are going to hate being badmoonz but love deathskullz (ssag)
So I'm dicking with an evil sunz list, focussed around... you guessed it, going fast! Hoping to have a sizable chunk of my force in the enemies lines first turn.
Spoiler:
Warboss on bike, Killa klaw, biggest boss, brutal but kunnin
Defkkilla wartrike
Weirdboy with fists of gork
60 grots
2 Deffkoptas with shootaz
20 Stormboyz with boss nob
12 Warbikers with boss nob
2 bonebreakers one with redroller, one with forktress
3 deffdreads with orkymatic pistons
burnabomma
Still not sure what I want in my elite slots. Could throw in some cheap meganobs into the bonebreakers to have something to push off or sit on objectives. But could also switch them out for some regular nobs or even Kommandoz to save on points for more Deffkoptas or stormboyz
I haven't played Grey Knights recently, but the last time I did i managed to get into CC with a full unit of paladins with all 3 of my Scrapjets. I used ramming speed and did 3 Mortal wounds, I then used 3 Corkscrew MW attacks and made 2 which got me another 4 mortal wounds. So before CC even started I had done 7 wounds needless to say I won that charge and the Scrapjets basically made their points back in 1 phase
Yeah, it's always fun to use some enemy character or unit as a speedbump. Once charged a couple of scrapjets/boostablastas and killed dark elder characters before even fighting. That 2++ invul don't do a thing when the wielder is being run over.
Jidmah wrote: Does anyone have experience with magnetizing a MA Big Mek for KFF/Tellyporta Blasta?
I brought a KFF megamek in an elites-based BW-rush army list. It was a while ago, I think it was 3 bonecrushers, with meganobs escorted by mad doc grotsnik and regular nobs escorted by the KFF megamek (reasoning that dropping a 2+ below 5+ is hard enough, and grotsnik helps their survival against such weapons as they invariably have multiple damage).
All in all, he worked reasonably well, and being left behind a bit wasn't too bad as he still had character protection, and a 9" bubble around him so the nobs wouldn't easily outstrip him that much. when he did walk up to a vehicle, he chipped the paint quite severely. Next time I'll put a killsaw or two on him (If I can, not got the 'dex to hand). Turn 1 I relied on character protection and had him outside & behind the wagons to give KFF protection to all 3. Turn 1 he hopped in and we went as fast as possible toward the enemy. It seemed an effective use of the KFF, especially to weather turn 1 firepower. He was also protecting some deff dreads, IIRC.
Jidmah wrote: Does anyone have experience with magnetizing a MA Big Mek for KFF/Tellyporta Blasta?
I have one done but not painted. What ya need
Just a general idea on how to do it. I've found a way now, but it involved lots of cursing, breaking one of the KFF bits (luckily I got two), losing a magnet covered in super-glue twice and gluing my fingers together.
Eh, I just ended up drilling through the plate which holds the two items, putting two 3x2mm magnets in there and two 3x1mm magnets into each of the wargear items.
Destroyed one of the plates and one KFF in the process, so in case someone else wants to magnetize a MA Big Mek, I can now tell you in detail how not to do it
Does anyone have good insight into the new buggies? To my eye, they all seem weighted heavily towards offense and cost a bit for something that can be popped by a single Krak Missile.
But eyeballs don't equal gameplay.
So I was wondering if anybody'd mucked around with them very much.
I've been trying all the buggies and I just can't find one I like. The one I've had the most success with is the one that blows up on 4s and just driving it into already heavily wounded character blobs from planes. With a few exceptions they've only done well when I was already winning.
Hi I just fought the new orks. Wow. What a rush. A lot of big suprices! BS 4 walking fortress (sparkly bits?) and 3+ save cars (another custom job.)
But there was a stratagem that made freebooters range 36. Is that right? I could not find it at 1d4chan.
Also, can freeboters trigger a free new shooting after triggering it? (Rolling a 6 twice.) they have this spescial rule that triggers after they shoot, and my opponent was not so shure.
Also, he ran three different detachments with different rules and the special characters ceep their own rules? I was a bit confused. (And so was he.)
Niiai wrote: Hi I just fought the new orks. Wow. What a rush. A lot of big suprices! BS 4 walking fortress (sparkly bits?) and 3+ save cars (another custom job.)
But there was a stratagem that made freebooters range 36. Is that right? I could not find it at 1d4chan.
Also, can freeboters trigger a free new shooting after triggering it? (Rolling a 6 twice.) they have this spescial rule that triggers after they shoot, and my opponent was not so shure.
Also, he ran three different detachments with different rules and the special characters ceep their own rules? I was a bit confused. (And so was he.)
Yes, it's 2 CP and does exactly what you describe. As far as their Gun-crazy Show-offs rule, I believe it can trigger multiple times, but do remember that their bonus shooting must target the closest enemy unit.
Regarding 3+ save cars, you mean a Battlewagon, right? Forktress is a kustom job to give any of the Battlewagon chassis vehicles a 3+/5++. There are no kustom jobs for giving any other vehicle an improved save.
Finally detachments, I think the only special characters who can be included in a detachment that doesn't match their own clan keyword without breaking the clan kultur benefits for themselves and the rest of the detachment are the new Ghazkull and Kaptin Badrukk. If each detachment matched the special character (ie Boss Zagstruk was in a Goff detachment), then they of course get the benefit of the clan kultur, even if other detachments in the army do not.
I am a bit light on anti tank models you see. Tyranids do not really have a good way to destroy high thoughness models in melle. Few of the big monster can push better then S6 or S7 without the crushing claw, and that messes up their to hit.
There are exseptions, like old one eye a special character. But in the shooting department I own lots of venom and heavy venom cannons (mostly bad) and 6 hiveguards. Hive guards are exelent! Alongside exoshrines and rupture cannon tyranofex. (With I do not own.)
So turn one he uses the 36 stratagem and his 10 flashgits shoot of all 6 hiveguards who where in cover with -1 to hit. My jaw dropped.
Later on when is battlefortress actually hit on 4+ a lot of carnifexes dies. Usually I would just cast the horror on it an make it hit on 6's. But I was just floored. Ahooting orks. :-(
So still no FAQ for saga, is there a particular place you can send queries to GW? Cause I really, really wanna know if they intend for the gunwagon Periscope to work with the kustom jobs or not. I sorta feel for freebootaz a Zapzap armed gunwagon may be a decent way to kick off the dakka storm. Aim both vollies at a weaker unit and you have a decent chance of getting at least one shot procing the mortal wounds.
cody.d. wrote: So still no FAQ for saga, is there a particular place you can send queries to GW? Cause I really, really wanna know if they intend for the gunwagon Periscope to work with the kustom jobs or not. I sorta feel for freebootaz a Zapzap armed gunwagon may be a decent way to kick off the dakka storm. Aim both vollies at a weaker unit and you have a decent chance of getting at least one shot procing the mortal wounds.
The more people send questions there, the more likely we are to get a proper FAQ instead of heaving to guess how stuff works for the rest of the edition.
Hey folks, played an ork game for the first time the other day and had a blast. After checking out some statistics I'm curious about the opinions on a few different builds.
Specifically, I know smasha guns are the standard favorite, but with the ability to reroll 1s, I am wondering if some KMKs might be worth it.
Twice as many potential shots, and I believe around the same averages of wounding something? S8 vs 2d6 average of 7 to beat toughness.... maybe I'm wrong. Math is hard.
First one is a mix, we have 6 smashas, and 10 KMK
Option 1
Spoiler:
Deathskulls (+2cp)
1x Weird boy
1x SAG 20x gretchin
26x boys + nob
3x dragsta
3x Scrapjet
I was also thinking of dropping 2 smashas (for 10 total) and redistributing boys to become 2 squads of 21. Just for better coverage and more options.
...
Okay last option, and probably the worst... I really like the new Ghaz model. So I would tellyporta him most likely and just run the MANz up with makarfi in the bonebreaka.
Option 4
Spoiler:
Deathskulls (+3cp)
1x Weird boy
1x SAG 20x gretchin
20x boyz
3x dragsta
Or any variations. I'm new to playing as orkz and I know none of these lists have enough boys. But to be honest, I've played against orks plenty of times (as tyranids and chaos) and have never been impressed with them. Easily chewed up by other melee blobs, or even the worst anti infantry fire power. Boyz spam just isn't my jam. What I do love though is all the fun unique rules orks get.
KMKs aren't worth the points. They die too easily for the 60 point cost. You can take three smashas + change for the price of two KMKs, and you'll output significantly more damage as well as having 50% more resilience.
The mortal wounds on 1s is really irrelevant though. If your mek gunz are living long enough to be blowing themselves up, you've surely won the game already.
Fair enough! The other unit I'm unsure about is the Megatrakk Scrapjet. 100 points for it's starline and abilities (especially with kustom job) is really appealing.
I like it as a flex unit that can contribute at a distance while also having a hard punch in melee... is there any consensus on that? Anything that competes for it's slot?
weaver9 wrote: Fair enough! The other unit I'm unsure about is the Megatrakk Scrapjet. 100 points for it's starline and abilities (especially with kustom job) is really appealing.
I like it as a flex unit that can contribute at a distance while also having a hard punch in melee... is there any consensus on that? Anything that competes for it's slot?
Megatrakk is good for the slot (FA).
But don't be fooled. You really want to keep it shooting. It's generally a mistake for this thing to see combat except in specific circumstances.
Consensus is still out if the kustom job is worth it solely for that reason.
Although I would personally feel decently safe throwing three into a mid tier unit. Especially with the Kustom job. 24 str 8 ap2 attacks has a decent change of mauling most stuff without a great invul or a large number of models.
I'll wait until the FAQ is out and we have more experience with the new book and then do a major overhaul of the first post. Right now any work put into that would be wasted.
Jidmah wrote: I'll wait until the FAQ is out and we have more experience with the new book and then do a major overhaul of the first post. Right now any work put into that would be wasted.
Yeah, Jidmah is definitely right in this regard. So far we pretty much only have online battle reports and TTS games to go off on which isn't exactly a good indicator of the successes of our new stuff from our PA book.
Biggest problem in TTS is the true LOS and movement, keeping a real coherency is a struggle.
I'll have a game this Tuesday, trying out the new bombers and Meganobz heavy with the new strat, let's see what happens
The though is to give Sparkly Bitz to one of the Killa Kan units depending on the army I am facing.
As much as I love Kanz, unfortunately, I feel like they actually don't benefit that much from Grot Mobz that much. They lack the volume or quality of fire to really make the most of reroll one's that a pure Mek Gunz Spearhead or Battalion would do and with Sparkly Bitz they can't compete with a Morkanaut that can shoot twice in a Dred Waaagh! Specialist Detachment. I've found more success with them recently with a Tin 'Ead detachment and giving them the Orkymatic Pistons kustom job so they can do the most damage, which is with their CC weapons. They do a good job of being like Meganobz unit that don't need to rely on Da Jump/Tellyport and hit a lot harder with their flat damage. With support from a Deffkilla Wartrike it's even possible to get T1 charges with them, though they'll definitely outpace any WAAAGH! banners if you decide to take them in your army.
6 Rockets for 252 points, even hitting on 3's, is not that impressive. I'd rather take Deff Koptas, which basically hit at the same rate (2 rockets shooting at bs 5+ average the same as 1 rocket at a 3+... plus they don't cost me a CP, and have a really high upside if I roll hot), for only 12 more points. And they are really good at scoring objectives.
Or 10 tankbustas in a Chinork.
And boosting big shootas is really meh to me. Big Shootas suck, even if they hit on 3's.
I think the CC Kan is more interesting. Killa Kans actually have a decent combat profile if you can boost that WS.
Geemoney wrote: I think you under estimate hitting on 3's + reroll 1's + DakkaDakka
There is nothing that needs estimating though, you can just calculate it.
Assuming everyone has sparkly bits:
Six kanz with rokkits, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
5 dead GEQ 3 dead primaris
7.259 damage to T7 vehicles
5.444 damage to knights
Six kanz with big shootas, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
7.259 dead GEQ 1.815 dead primaris
1.815 damage to vehicles
Morkanaut with sparkly bits:
8.111 dead GEQ 4.778 dead primaris
10.273 damage to T7 vehicles
6.709 damage to knights
Gorkanaut with sparkly bits:
11.403 dead GEQ 3.528 dead primaris
4.084 damage to T7 vehicles
3.695 damage to knights
And just for the heck of it, a trio of quad-KMB deff dreads with sparkly bits:
6 dead GEQ 5 dead primaris
13.611 damage to T7 vehicles
8.167 damage to knights
So, don't give kanz sparkly bits, they are they get the least benefit from it out of all units that can have them. And never take big shootas unless you have to.
I rather have the gorkanaut kustom job weapon then sparkly bits. It’s a significantly better kustom job. More shots and with higher BS within 12in.
(If you wanted a morkanaut then sparkly bits and death skulls is much better.)
Which means sparkly bits isn’t going on the gorkanaut anyway.
And of course more smashas w reroll 1s are better then kans but the question is are kans worth taking sparkly bits or better off with dirty gubbins or orky pistons. Kans are like mega nobs that can shoot. Reroll 1s work in melee to. so you want kans in melee. I’m not sure tineads is better since rerolls 1s help mek guns more plus 6++ invul is useful..
We already know shootas suck, skorchas are way to expensive, it’s either rokkits or grotzookas. The bottom line is there are still better options then kans. although grot clan kans aren’t bad w reroll 1 shooting and melee plus 6+ invul.
Jidmah wrote: Grotzookas are strictly worse than big shootas - it's rokkits or bust
Given that I’m already taking a gorkanaut w kustom weapon ( it’s better then sparkly bits)
Given that you are better off taking rokkits on kans.
and I’m not taking a morkanaut
is it better to take sparkly bits or dirty gubbins or orky pistons.
I don’t see the love for tineads unless you are going heavy on Meganobz. +1 to hit melee is ok but reroll 1 in shooting and melee and 6+ invul is better.
I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.
The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.
I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.
The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.
Yep. It’s really good. I’m painting death skull shoota boys for a reason. I’m stoked to try it out with those plus stuff like my mega trakk. Big shootas start looking decent when they are AP-1
18” with move and advance from the weirdboy is alright, but yeah, he’s still sniper bait. I was hoping PA would have given our weird boys more than t shirts.
Geemoney wrote: I think you under estimate hitting on 3's + reroll 1's + DakkaDakka
There is nothing that needs estimating though, you can just calculate it.
Assuming everyone has sparkly bits:
Six kanz with rokkits, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
5 dead GEQ 3 dead primaris
7.259 damage to T7 vehicles
5.444 damage to knights
Six kanz with big shootas, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
7.259 dead GEQ 1.815 dead primaris
1.815 damage to vehicles
Morkanaut with sparkly bits:
8.111 dead GEQ 4.778 dead primaris
10.273 damage to T7 vehicles
6.709 damage to knights
Gorkanaut with sparkly bits:
11.403 dead GEQ 3.528 dead primaris
4.084 damage to T7 vehicles
3.695 damage to knights
And just for the heck of it, a trio of quad-KMB deff dreads with sparkly bits:
6 dead GEQ 5 dead primaris
13.611 damage to T7 vehicles
8.167 damage to knights
So, don't give kanz sparkly bits, they are they get the least benefit from it out of all units that can have them. And never take big shootas unless you have to.
Are you including the Skorcha in the Gorkanaut math? Kanz with Big Shootaz serve two possible purposes, screen out vehicle heavy lists, or do damage to infantry(GEQ) heavy lists at range. If we are playing a infantry heavy list the Rokkit Kanz can be used as a screen if needed. I don't believe the Skorcha is relevant in the this comparison.
18 shots, hitting on 3's; wounding on 3's gets me 8 wounds
18 shots, hitting on 4's; wounding on 2's gets me 7.5 wounds
Factoring in a base 5+ save the big shoota kanz come up short about a wound when compared the the Gorkanaut; and that is without factoring in reroll 1's or Dakka Dakka. Also the Gorkanaut is 70pt more...
I'm not saying the Gorkanaut is bad, it is probably a better all around unit, but I would argue the Big Shoota kanz are better at doing damage to GEQ at range and a much better screen. A Gorkanaut is too valuable of a unit to use as a screen.
Geemoney wrote: Are you including the Skorcha in the Gorkanaut math?
Yeah, forgot the skorcha, but the gorkanaut is just there for comparison anyways - the slugg gubbin is a way better choice for it.
Kanz with Big Shootaz serve two possible purposes, screen out vehicle heavy lists, or do damage to infantry(GEQ) heavy lists at range. If we are playing a infantry heavy list the Rokkit Kanz can be used as a screen if needed. I don't believe the Skorcha is relevant in the this comparison.
Big shootas are trash, irrespective of their platform. Paying 210 points and a CP for seven dead GEQ is just terrible and gets worse if you they are in cover or wearing 3+ armor. Against an army with 3+ or 4+ saves a big shoota might as well not exist.
Just put rokkits on all of them and shoot those GEQs with rokkits if you must.
18 shots, hitting on 3's; wounding on 3's gets me 8 wounds
18 shots, hitting on 4's; wounding on 2's gets me 7.5 wounds
Factoring in a base 5+ save the big shoota kanz come up short about a wound when compared the the Gorkanaut; and that is without factoring in reroll 1's or Dakka Dakka. Also the Gorkanaut is 70pt more...
I already factored in re-rolling ones and dakkadakka for all involved AND forgot the skorcha. The naut is still 1.5 times better than the kanz against MEQ and almost twice as good against any other target.
There is no way to make that sound good.
I'm not saying the Gorkanaut is bad, it is probably a better all around unit, but I would argue the Big Shoota kanz are better at doing damage to GEQ at range and a much better screen. A Gorkanaut is too valuable of a unit to use as a screen.
Sorry, but there is nothing to argue. The math shows that big shootas on kanz are point for point worse at dealing damage against GEQ and completely terrible at everything else. There is no competitive reason to ever buy a single big shoota.
Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.
Eh, I've come to like these random weapons they keep sprinkling over models. Having a big shoota that's effectively priced into your naut/buggy/plane is actually nice. I just don't want to pay anything for them, and I don't want them to replace weapons which actually do something, like rokkits or KMB.
I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.
The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.
Been thinking about how to use it effectively too. not tested it yet but the power does not require line of sight so thinking of trying to get him within 18" and just hide him if the opponents not too mobile
it doesnt require line of sight?
somehow i would assume that would be faq'd in. Psyker powers that dont need LoS are insanely rare, actually i cant even think of another one.
Vineheart01 wrote: it doesnt require line of sight?
somehow i would assume that would be faq'd in. Psyker powers that dont need LoS are insanely rare, actually i cant even think of another one.
All eldar CW powers nearly. A few tyranid buffing powers don’t either. Not that rare but still the minority I would say
Vineheart01 wrote: Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.
I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.
Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.
Haha, I actually kind of like Da Krunch... but the problem is when your Weirdboy gets 1 spell only (other than Smite), you'd be crazy to not take even BACKUPS of Da jump / Warpath / Fists of Gork / (new clan psychic powers) before 1 copy of it.
Wakshaani wrote:
I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.
Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.
Because they are overpriced trash.
A big shoota shooting at a guardsmen in cover (4+ save) kills roughly .33 guardsmen a turn. So you'd need 3 Big Shootas just to kill 1 4 point guardsmen.
Meanwhile, the heavy bolter at 10 points average twice as many hits (potentially more with a nearby Chapter Master) and has AP-1. It's more than twice as effective against pretty much every target.
Spending 5 points on it is typically a bad investment. When it's baked in on a useful platform like a Megatrakk, though, it's not so bad.
Rockets at 12 points, or KMB at 9 points, simply outperform Big Shootas. The shoota at 0 points is also not that much worse, outside of range.
I played against orks today. Man that was a mixed feeling. Fun though! That Sparkly Bits upgread is really something.
Anyway, my friend is a really slow player. Turn 1 with nids, I did some psykick powers and shot a bit. I had casteled up against his turn 1 charges so I saw no reason to move. Now his turn. I took some pictures and notised that we had spent 59 minuts on the first game turn of the game! Considering how little of the time I spent I know he must have speend an enourmus amount of time. The game goes on for ever to the point of being unbearable and we never finish.
Is there some way to make him play faster? Please do not say movement trays, because he has movement trays. If anything they make it slower because they keep not having the formations he wants and models keep falling down. He was playing 90 buys in 3 groups and was running da green tide stratagem on top of that. I have no idea how he takes this long!
Green tide is slow and unbearable.
He can know his rules and plan faster and skip some rolls that are meaningless like shooting that’s likely to do nothing.
Multiple sets of dice specific to units or a dice app.
Less models is faster.
Green tide for me is mostly just for weekend narrative games now. It’s a problem to fit it into a 2-3 hour club game.
I end up playing killteam a lot due to this lack of time.
Have about 2 thirds of the unit bluetacked onto movement trays, taking out and putting them back as needed to make multiples of 5. At least that's how I run my green tide and usually finish before some of the more elite armies during tourneys.
That and, let's be honest in regards to playing green tide, it's very much a blunt object swung at the opponent, not exactly needing find maneuvering and exact application of force. Just throw the boyz at the enemy and hope they stop twitching before the boyz mobs do.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.
I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.
Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.
The math is pretty easy, but I'll give you some examples of common targets for a Big Shoota and how many points each big shoota can expect to kill each round against each type. I'll even be nice and show them with BS 4+ and BS 5+ to show that they're bad even with a relatively good BS.
Don't let the raw points fool you either, it takes an average of 18 BS 5+ Big Shootas to kill a single terminator, ~5 to kill a marine, ~2 to kill a guardsman. They just don't do damage in an edition where the aim is to kill multiple entire units per turn.
Niiai wrote: I played against orks today. Man that was a mixed feeling. Fun though! That Sparkly Bits upgread is really something.
Anyway, my friend is a really slow player. Turn 1 with nids, I did some psykick powers and shot a bit. I had casteled up against his turn 1 charges so I saw no reason to move. Now his turn. I took some pictures and notised that we had spent 59 minuts on the first game turn of the game! Considering how little of the time I spent I know he must have speend an enourmus amount of time. The game goes on for ever to the point of being unbearable and we never finish.
Is there some way to make him play faster? Please do not say movement trays, because he has movement trays. If anything they make it slower because they keep not having the formations he wants and models keep falling down. He was playing 90 buys in 3 groups and was running da green tide stratagem on top of that. I have no idea how he takes this long!
I've met ork players that play green tide and can outpace marine players. I'm not quite as fast but here's a few things I've learnt from them that have helped me pick up speed:
Be decisive and have a plan for how you want to move your units.
Know your codex inside out, you save a lot of time if you don't have to reference it.
Practice with the same list over and over. (This one i'm guilty of not doing)
Depending on context, a dice app like XD6 can help save time. Not everyone is keen on or allows for dice apps, so I've done some deliberate practice on dice rolling.
Depending on your list, consider re configuring units to make them faster to use. EG I tend to not bother with bad moonz shoota boyz because it can take so long to roll their hit rolls, and I tend to prefer killsaws over powerklaws so I don't have to roll damage. Smasha gunz are also guilty for their weird wound rolls but if you have pairs of coloured dice you can fast roll the wounds.
Playing with a chess clock can help you be aware of how much time you spend. It's good for players of horde armies to practice with a chess clock if they plan to play in a tournament. Many players assume that horde players will be slow and will try to force them into using the clock.
On the point about movement trays, they help with two things (in my opinion): scooting models forward and deploying. Terrain and combat will rapidly force you to ditch them but it at least makes deployment and the first turn faster.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.
I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.
Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.
Uhm, I showed the math is right on this page?
It's also not that hard to do yourself, if you're interested, or use mathhammer8thed.com
The general idea is that between hitting on BS5+ and having no armor penetration a big shoota has an extremely high chance of doing nothing against the vast majority of potential targets on the table.
The few targets you actually can expect to die from getting shot by a big shoota are cheap chaff units which tend to be cheaper than the big shoota+what ever it's holding. When you upgrade a shoota boy with a big shoota, it actually deals less damage per points spent than it did before the upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: Is there some way to make him play faster? Please do not say movement trays, because he has movement trays. If anything they make it slower because they keep not having the formations he wants and models keep falling down. He was playing 90 buys in 3 groups and was running da green tide stratagem on top of that. I have no idea how he takes this long!
- Make him glue washers/magnets underneath the bases to prevent them from falling down. If you use magnets, you even speed up packing and unpacking if you transport them on a metal sheet. Unless you charge, there is no need to take them out of the tray.
- Use a dice tray to cut down times on chasing/looking for dice.
- Using a dice app whenever you roll more than 20 dice at once has significantly sped up my games.
- Help him move units.
- Some players also tend to get side-tracked when they are supposed to move models and instead chat or do other things, make sure he stays focused.
- If he keeps getting lost in the BattleScribe Pile Of Paper (TM) he is using instead of a codex, have him run his lists through this tool before the game: http://40ktools.com/ so he can find his stuff quicker.
- If he is using a codex, bring sticky notes to bookmark units for him.
- If he suffers from analysis paralysis, ask him what he wants to do and try giving him non-biased advice
If you have trouble with your opponent taking too long playing horder armies there is one easy option. Take a few units of bolt aggressors. XP Losing a few units quickly will dissuade him.
Niiai wrote: I played against orks today. Man that was a mixed feeling. Fun though! That Sparkly Bits upgread is really something.
Anyway, my friend is a really slow player. Turn 1 with nids, I did some psykick powers and shot a bit. I had casteled up against his turn 1 charges so I saw no reason to move. Now his turn. I took some pictures and notised that we had spent 59 minuts on the first game turn of the game! Considering how little of the time I spent I know he must have speend an enourmus amount of time. The game goes on for ever to the point of being unbearable and we never finish.
Is there some way to make him play faster? Please do not say movement trays, because he has movement trays. If anything they make it slower because they keep not having the formations he wants and models keep falling down. He was playing 90 buys in 3 groups and was running da green tide stratagem on top of that. I have no idea how he takes this long!
So I lost the bits to the battle wagon for the 'ard case and the mount for the turret, which is driving me nuts (because I still have the turret lol).
I was strongly considering kit bashing a supa kannon to quell this. Anyone use it? The lifta dropa seems like one of the worst guns every made stats wise, but the kannon didn't seem too bad.
Keramory wrote: So I lost the bits to the battle wagon for the 'ard case and the mount for the turret, which is driving me nuts (because I still have the turret lol).
I was strongly considering kit bashing a supa kannon to quell this. Anyone use it? The lifta dropa seems like one of the worst guns every made stats wise, but the kannon didn't seem too bad.
you could just say it has da boomer, Forktress, or the Zagzap but otherwise be a plain old battlewagon
Keramory wrote: So I lost the bits to the battle wagon for the 'ard case and the mount for the turret, which is driving me nuts (because I still have the turret lol).
I was strongly considering kit bashing a supa kannon to quell this. Anyone use it? The lifta dropa seems like one of the worst guns every made stats wise, but the kannon didn't seem too bad.
I mean you can kitbash the supa kannon and use it as a counts as kill-kannon, given that 8th ed doesn't actually use the weapon mounts individually anymore for LoS or shooting purposes. Now that the relic killkannon exists and presuming it works with the shoot twice with periscope rule from gunwagons, the supakannon is is kinda obsolete, since they were priced during Index times and lack the ability to shoot twice (the only thing it has over a killkannon is a flat 3 damage, which isn't worth the premium price tag IMO). So I would just say its a killkannon.
Drats thanks! I know barebones is about best for the Battlewagon, just model wise itself it feels like I'm missing something.
I plan to buy a upgrade pack from GW when they open (gave up trying to find a good 3d print of one). Might ask them if they have spare pieces of what I'm missing and I'll pay full price for just any spare rollas and those 2 pieces if they have it.
Not hopeful at all they'd bother with it. But still...
Jidmah - http://40ktools.com/ is super cool. But in fact, you can fit your army on 1xA4 in excel. I do it, incl. The cp a vp counter and hints for play - like “use your big mek to repair the mek gunz!” +
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perfect are metal moving trays - flat sheet of steel with about 50mm metal rod in the midle. Boyz holds on magnets. I have my army ready like this and put the causalities back on trays. Fast to play and fast to start / end the game.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah - http://40ktools.com/ is super cool. But in fact, you can fit your army on 1xA4 in excel. I do it, incl. The cp a vp counter and hints for play - like “use your big mek to repair the mek gunz!” +
That doesn't really help though, because you can't write excel sheets for everyone else. I don't use the tool a lot myself, since I prefer using bookmarked codices. I have introduced it to the rest of my group though, and it has almost eliminated the problem of my opponents getting confused by their own battlescribe print-outs. The regular format is just in no way fit to find anything quickly.
Perfect are metal moving trays - flat sheet of steel with about 50mm metal rod in the midle. Boyz holds on magnets. I have my army ready like this and put the causalities back on trays. Fast to play and fast to start / end the game.
I use GW's apoc movement trays. They look good and because of the way they are shaped, it is easy to spread out, clump up and get around obstacles without sacrificing much, so you can usually keep horde units in there until they charge.
Jidmah - yeah, you can' t write it for others. That' s the point I like your tip!
apoc trays - I don' t like them. I don't like how they looks like, i don' t like how they spread the boyz. I don' t like I need different trays for 25 and for 32mm units.
I like my thin steel rod - just pick and move. It' s like play a chess. The metal plate coverd in black is almost or total invisible.
Got Mobz Big Mek KFF Weird boy (da jump)
Gretch x30
Smasha guns x17
Deathskullz Big Mek (da souped up shokka)
Big Mek KFF Boyz x50 (+2 boss nobz w/ big choppa)
Gretchen x10
Shokkjunp Dragstas x3 (Kustom Job)
Pyromaniacs Burna-bommers x3
Leaves me with 12 cp after purchases (dread waagh, kustom job).
I am happy with the amount of maneuverability via dragstas and da jump, the mortal wounds via bommers and the anti everything with the smasha guns. Only real weak point is melee but hopefully the boyz can help out there.
The only consideration I have is possibly swapping out some boyz to replace the Deathskullz KFF with a weirdboy... for the Deathskullz psychic power.
Or I could swap him and the KFF Mek, and pay 1 cp for warphead.
I just want to cover my dragstas and mek guns with invulns where possible. Open to suggestions on that.
That aside, has anyone found a way to make ghaz work? I know he's not priced competitively, but the mechanic of only being able to lose 4 wounds a phase looks really fun.
Also, I would love to make Makari my warlord (unless there's a rule against that?)
Got Mobz Big Mek KFF Weird boy (da jump)
Gretch x30
Smasha guns x17
Deathskullz Big Mek (da souped up shokka)
Big Mek KFF Boyz x50 (+2 boss nobz w/ big choppa)
Gretchen x10
Shokkjunp Dragstas x3 (Kustom Job)
Pyromaniacs Burna-bommers x3
Leaves me with 12 cp after purchases (dread waagh, kustom job).
I am happy with the amount of maneuverability via dragstas and da jump, the mortal wounds via bommers and the anti everything with the smasha guns. Only real weak point is melee but hopefully the boyz can help out there.
The only consideration I have is possibly swapping out some boyz to replace the Deathskullz KFF with a weirdboy... for the Deathskullz psychic power.
Or I could swap him and the KFF Mek, and pay 1 cp for warphead.
I just want to cover my dragstas and mek guns with invulns where possible. Open to suggestions on that.
That aside, has anyone found a way to make ghaz work? I know he's not priced competitively, but the mechanic of only being able to lose 4 wounds a phase looks really fun.
Also, I would love to make Makari my warlord (unless there's a rule against that?)
My only criticism is that (and I think it's more personal taste than anything) it feels like you lack mid and back field presence. The boyz and dragstas will be moving up I assume, but besides that everything will be sitting in your backlines. (mind you I'm assuming the burna bommas will be flying over the enemy and probably exploding whenever you can make them do so.) Will capturing objectives or controlling the board give you a bit of trouble?
Got Mobz Big Mek KFF Weird boy (da jump)
Gretch x30
Smasha guns x17
Deathskullz Big Mek (da souped up shokka)
Big Mek KFF Boyz x50 (+2 boss nobz w/ big choppa)
Gretchen x10
Shokkjunp Dragstas x3 (Kustom Job)
Pyromaniacs Burna-bommers x3
Leaves me with 12 cp after purchases (dread waagh, kustom job).
I am happy with the amount of maneuverability via dragstas and da jump, the mortal wounds via bommers and the anti everything with the smasha guns. Only real weak point is melee but hopefully the boyz can help out there.
The only consideration I have is possibly swapping out some boyz to replace the Deathskullz KFF with a weirdboy... for the Deathskullz psychic power.
Or I could swap him and the KFF Mek, and pay 1 cp for warphead.
I just want to cover my dragstas and mek guns with invulns where possible. Open to suggestions on that.
That aside, has anyone found a way to make ghaz work? I know he's not priced competitively, but the mechanic of only being able to lose 4 wounds a phase looks really fun.
Also, I would love to make Makari my warlord (unless there's a rule against that?)
My only criticism is that (and I think it's more personal taste than anything) it feels like you lack mid and back field presence. The boyz and dragstas will be moving up I assume, but besides that everything will be sitting in your backlines. (mind you I'm assuming the burna bommas will be flying over the enemy and probably exploding whenever you can make them do so.) Will capturing objectives or controlling the board give you a bit of trouble?
That's a fair point. I think a lot of it comes down to how I play it, and who I'm up against.
Generic tactics:
One boy squad will move forward to pressure and contest midfield, with a second da jumping tactically to capture an objective or deny points in another fashion.
I'm hoping that between the pressure of the bommers, 1 boy horde, dragster sniping, and artillery, enemies won't put much thought into taking out a small gretch squad holding a point. And if they do that's kind of a win for me.
I want to turn midfield into a shooting gallery, and break anything that can't be shot with my boys, and hunt down elites with bommas and dragstas. It's very much a reactionary list in some ways.... shoot what I can till you hide it, then charge it with boys and dragstas.
That's how I envision it playing at least. I bet certain armies will counter it hard.
Secondaries I would almost always take recon, marked for death and then a wildcard depending on the match up.
Edit: when you as an ork player think about holding the midfield, what units or strategies jump to mind?
Again this is to personal preference, my list building style. I usually plan to flood the midfield, either large numbers of boyz units marching up the field or with naughts backed up by the various buggies.
Though I've always been of the mindset that due to our very nature we're an all in faction, requiring saturation to achieve what we want.
weaver9 wrote: Leaves me with 12 cp after purchases (dread waagh, kustom job).
I am happy with the amount of maneuverability via dragstas and da jump, the mortal wounds via bommers and the anti everything with the smasha guns. Only real weak point is melee but hopefully the boyz can help out there.
The only consideration I have is possibly swapping out some boyz to replace the Deathskullz KFF with a weirdboy... for the Deathskullz psychic power.
Or I could swap him and the KFF Mek, and pay 1 cp for warphead.
I just want to cover my dragstas and mek guns with invulns where possible. Open to suggestions on that.
I have toyed with vehicle lists a lot, and I have found that boyz have no place in them. I'd drop all the boyz and replace them with gretchin and three scrapjets.
Also, I would love to make Makari my warlord (unless there's a rule against that?)
No, but he has to have the goff warlord trait which is kind of a waste. Forcing your opponent to get through that 2++ save is hilarious though.
Makari is unfortunatelly easy target for vindicare assasin. Only adventage is, that you can hide him more easily than let say Big mek. He ignores the invu saves with his 70” riffle.
You can't really hide, his banner is huge. I played around a bit with him and Thrakka taking on two 200 point killteams at once, it's almost impossible to hide him from view.
Either way, I think a SSAG warlord ist just more valuable.
SSAG is just a Dr Strangelove kind of weapon that is insane not using him. People will do all kind of crazy gak in order to avoid him. His mere presence will dictate how your adversary move thru the whole game. Even if he whiff, he still an incredible presence.
SSAG have a great influence on regular SAG. In my experience - SAG hits nothing alone. Put a SSAG next to him, SSAG hits nothing and SAG makes absolute carnage.
man ghaz is so overpriced and unusually limited i cant even create a semi-competitive list with him lol. Every list i come up with i feel like im basically handing the game to my opponent unless dice luck are absolutely amazing for me. He at least replaces a Naut and i dont see him doing as much damage, not even close, and at most forces a hefty amount of Goff units which even with makari's FNP around struggle to survive long enough.
Never had this issue before where i legitimately felt mad i couldnt use a unit lol. Mind you i have basically everything except stormboyz/mekgun spam available to me so its not lack of specific units im missing either.
I suspect they were conservative with Ghaz' ruleset due to A, being a Xenos and B, realizing how hard they fethed up the big smurf. Mofo shaped several armies for quite some time.
Hell even Abbadon felt more like Calgar than the Warmaster he's meant to be.
Vineheart01 wrote: man ghaz is so overpriced and unusually limited i cant even create a semi-competitive list with him lol.
Every list i come up with i feel like im basically handing the game to my opponent unless dice luck are absolutely amazing for me. He at least replaces a Naut and i dont see him doing as much damage, not even close, and at most forces a hefty amount of Goff units which even with makari's FNP around struggle to survive long enough.
Never had this issue before where i legitimately felt mad i couldnt use a unit lol. Mind you i have basically everything except stormboyz/mekgun spam available to me so its not lack of specific units im missing either.
I think you skip Makari. The problem is, how do you list build to not awkwardly include the seemingly mandatory Goff painboy :\
Problem with Guaz is you can more or less get his meaningful damage output from a warboss with the relic claw, and a warlord trait.
On top of it, that warboss can be any clan for added synergy, and a bikerboss even.
Ghaz's only real appeal to me is the 4 wounds per phase (which means he doesn't auto lose when when he charges or is charged by a knight, wulfen, bezerkers etc).
But I doubt that is worth 180+ extra points. Could instead just take more units.
Which really is a shame considering how dang cool that model is.
I think there's an argument for Ghaz to be a really unpleasant roadblock. It's a lot of work to chip wounds off of him and I think there's value in his presence on the board either as a distraction carnifex, for zoning, or for holding objectives.
The biggest counterargument to this is his mobility. From my play experience if you foot slog him you just have to accept the lack of mobility and aim for positioning mid field at best during the first few turns. If you want him on the other side of the board you just have to accept the 2cp cost of tellyporta.
I'm still experimenting with him, as is probably everyone else.
Ghaz has a few issues that need to be fixed. Mobility (adv and charge is needed), utility (his auras are either clan locked or short ranged melee centric), and he doesn’t offer anything you can’t get elsewhere cheaper.. (he needs a way to generate CP or Provide something different).. he also fails to blend well with other units (lack of painboys or other similar issues)
They need to fix the stuff they can errata and he will be usable if they change his rules to fix his problems he would be great
. I am also looking at alternates to the tankbustas, but I do still believe they have a role. A lot of their usefullness depends on if eldar flyers is still a build in the post-pandemic meta. I'm of the opinion that lootas don't have a place right now 
he jumped the SSAg, hence why he said he yolo;d him across the table. I've done this a couple of times, most notably with my SSAG and my friends Immotekh haha.
) it might actually be very promising.
