Tomsug wrote:
What is the better roadblock? 1 ghazz or 10x10 grots? It' s the same price....

Orks have so many good roadblock units, I fail to see how a 285 model which is slow as fudge can be of any use here. We can da jump boyz for roadblocks, send kopters in, stormboyz or shokk jump dragstas (last two are pricey though).

I am not even eager anymore to get the shipment containing my Ghaz model. There is so much other stuff I want to try out which got great rather balanced rules/buffs (Gorkanauts and gunwagons, bonecrushas, etc.).

GW will probably drop him to 220 points next chance they get so I am not worried on the ong term. Mindu you even at 220 points I am unsure how comp he would be

So, having read all the fluff in the box and the new PA...

... how did Thrakka actually lose his head? Did I miss that part?

If you take an Evil Suns Gorkanaut, and give orkymatic pistons, and then put a standard Mek inside with evil Suns redder armor relic...

8" base move + 3" pistons + 1" Evil Sun + 1" Redder relic embarked = 13" movement?

Seems ok, can reroll advance roll and get +1" from ES.

With wartrike nearby for advance and charge could possibly clear 32" in first turn?

Plus its possibly dealing mortal wounds to all nearby enemy units at end of movement phase.

Bigdoza wrote:
If you take an Evil Suns Gorkanaut, and give orkymatic pistons, and then put a standard Mek inside with evil Suns redder armor relic...

8" base move + 3" pistons + 1" Evil Sun + 1" Redder relic embarked = 13" movement?

Seems ok, can reroll advance roll and get +1" from ES.

With wartrike nearby for advance and charge could possibly clear 32" in first turn?

Plus its possibly dealing mortal wounds to all nearby enemy units at end of movement phase.

This seems hilarious, I need to try it.

So is there ANY hope for burnas? Sitting on basically 3 kits of burna bits, going to at least buy one box of boys to convert (then cry I have a stupid amount of shoota bits). Only thing I can see is maybe putting them in a truck and advancing... but eh. Don't understand the logic with d3 shots. Somehow we out dakka everything but this.

Bigdoza wrote:
If you take an Evil Suns Gorkanaut, and give orkymatic pistons, and then put a standard Mek inside with evil Suns redder armor relic...

8" base move + 3" pistons + 1" Evil Sun + 1" Redder relic embarked = 13" movement?

Seems ok, can reroll advance roll and get +1" from ES.

With wartrike nearby for advance and charge could possibly clear 32" in first turn?

Plus its possibly dealing mortal wounds to all nearby enemy units at end of movement phase.

You can also use ramming speed for a 3d6 charge.

I would skip on the redder armor, because that extra inch doesn't matter that much and you can't get within 1" of enemy models during the movement phase. Otherwise, if you can clear the screen and get other stuff like warbikers or koptas into your opponent's face as well, it might work.
Just keep in mind that nauts can't advance and charge their main cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Keramory wrote:
So is there ANY hope for burnas? Sitting on basically 3 kits of burna bits, going to at least buy one box of boys to convert (then cry I have a stupid amount of shoota bits). Only thing I can see is maybe putting them in a truck and advancing... but eh. Don't understand the logic with d3 shots. Somehow we out dakka everything but this.

You could try the pyromaniacs subculture and drive them forward with Big Trakks or chinorks. Re-rolling to wound in combat isn't terrible, but outside of that, I really see no reason to field them.

I’m still of the mind the best gorknaut layout is the slug gubbin kustom job and teleport it in for 24x bs4 shots at str6 ap-1 1 damage plus rokkits and shootas. Put it in your deff skull dread mob detachment for reroll to hit, to wound and to shoot twice if needed.
It just became a huge immediate threat and The slug gubbin even allows you to hit on overwatch on 5 since it adds 1 to your hit rolls.

gungo wrote:
I’m still of the mind the best gorknaut layout is the slug gubbin kustom job and teleport it in for 24x bs4 shots at str6 ap-1 1 damage plus rokkits and shootas. Put it in your deff skull dread mob detachment for reroll to hit, to wound and to shoot twice if needed.
It just became a huge immediate threat and The slug gubbin even allows you to hit on overwatch on 5 since it adds 1 to your hit rolls.

it would still only hit on 6's. Overwatch has different rules for hit modifiers, you would specifically need a rule that adds +1 to hit on OVERWATCH.

I do think you have it right for the Gork, though. DS also gives it a 6+ invul (better than nothing), combat bonuses which is nice, you still wanna ramming speed regardless it so the ES bonus charge isn't as useful. You could even combo it with Maniacal Seizure so the unit it shoots at will be at AP-2, making it even scarier.

I'm not sure if the Deathskull klan would really benefit the gorkanaught much. Too many shots and no random damage values. The mork would love it though. I kinda feel that evil suns would get a bit more mileage out of the gork. Throw on visions on it then fire twice. Maybe more dakka if you're feeling spicy. Shame the Mega shoota is heavy though. Still don't miss the days when that beast was 3D6 shots.

Either way I still love freebootz for the big naughts. Hitting on 3s with those beasts is a riot.

You get re-rolls for both shooting and melee though.
The whole point of a gorkanaut is to get those six attacks into combat, if you just want a pile of S6 AP-1 shots, a dakkajet does that way better.

Doesn't visions in the smoke give re-rolls to hit in combat and shooting for a turn? Even then it still gives a naught more than the blue boys would due to the naught relying on volume rather then quantity. (that is to say, less vital wound and damage rolls you'd want to re-roll from Lucky Gitz.)

You do realize vision only goes off 25% of the time on the Gork? Gork lists don’t typically get the psychic bonuses.

So do you guys have any advice against Grey Knights? I ask because they seem to dish out a nasty amount of damage regardless of the phase. Storm bolter spam chews through boys as does psychic. When you finally get in melee you have to hope they can't attack back because their weapons all have AP and they mass swing with shock assault.

Looking for ideal units to field

Burnabommas completely hose grey knights.

It is kinda hilarious how things have flipped. Grey knights used to be one of the worst factions in 40K. Now we actually have to be careful of the shiny bastards.

As for how to deal with them. As I recall their anti tank is one of their major shortcomings. That and they're still just expensive oldmarines.

cody.d. wrote:
It is kinda hilarious how things have flipped. Grey knights used to be one of the worst factions in 40K. Now we actually have to be careful of the shiny bastards.

As for how to deal with them. As I recall their anti tank is one of their major shortcomings. That and they're still just expensive oldmarines.

I think their anti tank is way better now with their buffed psycannons from tides and just being able to smite everything off the board.

tulun wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
It is kinda hilarious how things have flipped. Grey knights used to be one of the worst factions in 40K. Now we actually have to be careful of the shiny bastards.

As for how to deal with them. As I recall their anti tank is one of their major shortcomings. That and they're still just expensive oldmarines.

I think their anti tank is way better now with their buffed psycannons from tides and just being able to smite everything off the board.

Yeah, GK pretty much are deadly in every phase of the game now thanks to points cuts in CA and all the buffs to them via stratagems and base rules in PA. Before this, they werent efficient in CC since most units only had 1 base attack a d even with storm bolters, they could only affect 1 unit a time with their psi-weaponry stratagem. Now with shock assault, bolter discipline and an army wide way to buff all their shooting or psychic phase effectively on command means you cant just punk them on one phase.

I'll try more nauts and deff dreads. I know boys are not the answer because as I mentioned, they just rip apart in every phase.

My friend is also trying to eventually build a complete infantry brigade list, which essentially just smites you off the table. Trying not to be sour about it, but absolutely nuts to have an entire army smite on just 4s for a psychic test, it never increase and do flat 2 damage.

Keramory wrote:
I'll try more nauts and deff dreads. I know boys are not the answer because as I mentioned, they just rip apart in every phase.

My friend is also trying to eventually build a complete infantry brigade list, which essentially just smites you off the table. Trying not to be sour about it, but absolutely nuts to have an entire army smite on just 4s for a psychic test, it never increase and do flat 2 damage.

I could imagine just straight up board control might work with a grot horde, backed up our usual suspects like SAGs.

I think paladins are damn hard to crack even with burna bombers. They can get a 5+++ I’m pretty sure with 3 wounds each. But a slow slogging infantry army isn’t necessarily good at board control...

Alright, had an ITC match vs wolves yesterday with this list



He brought a less competitive list, tons of thunderwolf calvary, a host of characters, hellblasters, other primaris i didn't learn the names of, and a vindicator.

I took:
Gang Busters
Recon
Headhunter

His turn 1
He chose to go first, and surged up to midfield uncontested. Had some units outflanking.
----

My turn 1
On my turn 1 I zoomed the bommas over his TWC and removed some bases. Plus flyin headbutt.. Not the ideal targets, but the 3++ spam was scary.

Smashas removed 2 hellblaster squads, and 2 other primarus squads.

Da souped up shokka whiffed (as is it's gork given right).

I jumped a Gretchen squad to the backfield to hold a rear objective and a dragsta did the fire and fade, putting some damage on the vindicator.
---
His turn 2 he failed some charges and killed some grots.
---
My turn 2
My boyz form a defensive line, 3 dragstas jump back to snipe bjorn, but he ends up using a stratagem to let his vindicator shoot, and ends up blowing one up.

I basically proceeded cleanup this turn. 2 bommas are turning around, I wipe out his infantry and Ragnar. Smashas finish TWC and vindicator.

---

All and all a crushing or victory, but the his list wasn't built to be competitive. Super elite army that wants to get into melee. Will report back with more battles.

Something I learned is that midfield is none of my business, and so far thats okay with me. Dragstas and da jump can get my board presence where it needs to be without slogging.

tulun wrote:

Keramory wrote:
I'll try more nauts and deff dreads. I know boys are not the answer because as I mentioned, they just rip apart in every phase.

My friend is also trying to eventually build a complete infantry brigade list, which essentially just smites you off the table. Trying not to be sour about it, but absolutely nuts to have an entire army smite on just 4s for a psychic test, it never increase and do flat 2 damage.

I could imagine just straight up board control might work with a grot horde, backed up our usual suspects like SAGs.

I think paladins are damn hard to crack even with burna bombers. They can get a 5+++ I’m pretty sure with 3 wounds each. But a slow slogging infantry army isn’t necessarily good at board control...

Eadbutt is 3 mortal wounds per unit on top of the normal bomb mortal wounds. It does a lot of mortal wound damage to unit stars that hide under multiple auras. At best it’s taking out a few character auras.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, having read all the fluff in the box and the new PA...

... how did Thrakka actually lose his head? Did I miss that part?

It was reserved for the wulfy fanfic book at Black Library. Valrak posted a summary of the events of the book.

So at this point are there any Ork players at all that think Ghaz is competitive?

Also, someone mentioned reducing him to 220pts....I still wouldn't take him even at that price because he still is doing the same job that a warboss with relic klaw can do better and cheaper. If they don't fix the underlying problems the only way to make him playable would be to reduce his points cost to ridiculous levels.

If they did any of these he'd be worth considering imo:

- Gave Ghaz 4 more wounds (so he survives another phase)

- Made him infantry

- Made his auras apply to himself

- Reduce his cost to sub 250 after doing one or more of these.

I’d like
price reduction
Aura to himself
And a new CP generating ability like ghaz provides 3 additional cp. (or 2 cp and all Goff boys in his detachment get free skar boys strat)

He pretty much needs all 3 of those to be competitive. Only 1 would make him still worse then the warboss w strat upgrade.

If they made him infantry he would be to strong. Mainly because of painboy heals but there is a lot more he can do.

4 more wounds might be to strong too but 1-2 more wound is interesting idea.

Overall he doesn’t add much you can’t get elsewhere cheaper points wise and he doesn’t synergize or add anything to the army.

I also don’t like that most auras are Goff locked. The only thing he should be locked to is Goff warlord trait. (and Goff boys upgrade)

No he’s not competitive play him in narrative games and use warboss on bike w relic klaw and biggest boss strat as competitve choice. Cheaper faster and deadlier.

I'd put "can ride transports" on the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I also don’t like that most auras are Goff locked.

Only his new re-roll ones to hit in combat aura is goff locked, which is fairly useless anyways IMO.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd put "can ride transports" on the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I also don’t like that most auras are Goff locked.

Only his new re-roll ones to hit in combat aura is goff locked, which is fairly useless anyways IMO.

I feel like given that he's THE boss of the Great WAAAGH!, just giving reroll 1's to hit (both shooting and CC) to all Ork units rather than just Goffs wouldn't be that far-fetched given that he's the racial leader of effectively the whole faction. It would give more incentive to run him on foot and if his WAAAGH! aura affected himself and he had a price reduction I think he would do a lot for several builds, both dred mob and otherwise, which should make sense since he's been shown fluff-wise to effectively use different Klanz together.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd put "can ride transports" on the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I also don’t like that most auras are Goff locked.

Only his new re-roll ones to hit in combat aura is goff locked, which is fairly useless anyways IMO.

Ya there reroll 1 in melee should be reroll 1 to all attacks and not goff locked
His only restrictions should be he only benefits from goff klan tactics and can only use goff warlord trait.
And if they gave him the 2 cp plus goff boys are all skarboys like I suggested above (or just 3 extra cp)

Makari should have been goff and grot locked but his banner and his leadership auras should have been all ork/Gretchin units. He still needs to be near ghaz to be truly worthwhile.

Ghaz and makari are mostly a missed opportunity due to unnecessary restrictions added to them.

What if Ghaz Waaaagh ability worked on all Ork units. That way he is buffing himself but also other bigger things around him.

Someone said he'd be too powerful if he had the infantry keyword, well so what? Isn't he supposed to be the strongest Ork in the galaxy?

I suspect all that will happen is they will change something like the ramming strat to affect Monsters as well so he has access to a 3d6 charge ability. I feel like the Monster keyword is the most useless keyword in 8th edition. It has zero benefits over anything else in the game

Purely the only issue with making him Infantry is the painboy.
Painboy would be healing him 2d3 every turn, instead of just D3. He'd be totally unkillable unless you kept rolling like crap on the heals or your opoonent managed to cause psyker + shooting + melee damage (or at least 2 of those).
Still would rather him 9 wounds and not have that 4w per phase thing. Its one of those rules that feels either super overpriced or downright broken....never even remotely balanced.

Im fine with him being a monster he just needs rules to not feel uber gimped by it.

My first thought was his waaagh should affect Orks. I dont get why it doesnt affect everything when he has the biggest and baddest waaagh of them all. It wouldnt be broken at all, hes so expensive running him near a naut is kinda difficult/pricy and everything else isnt nearly powerful enough where 1 extra attack would break something.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Purely the only issue with making him Infantry is the painboy.
Painboy would be healing him 2d3 every turn, instead of just D3. He'd be totally unkillable unless you kept rolling like crap on the heals or your opoonent managed to cause psyker + shooting + melee damage (or at least 2 of those).
Still would rather him 9 wounds and not have that 4w per phase thing. Its one of those rules that feels either super overpriced or downright broken....never even remotely balanced.

Im fine with him being a monster he just needs rules to not feel uber gimped by it.

My first thought was his waaagh should affect Orks. I dont get why it doesnt affect everything when he has the biggest and baddest waaagh of them all. It wouldnt be broken at all, hes so expensive running him near a naut is kinda difficult/pricy and everything else isnt nearly powerful enough where 1 extra attack would break something.

exactly painboy and grot shield makes ghaz unkilable until you table everything around him... having unkillable characters is partly why 8th edition had to revamp rules.. 2++ rerollable saves broke 7th. It’s not about him being powerful is bad. We don’t want to go back to busted character spam. I agree with everything you said. Also I think giving ghaz access to ramming speed is a good idea to help him.

Honestly I think he'd be alright if they;
- Shave his points down to 250,
- Make his advance and charge aura work on himself
- Remove the restriction from "da biggest boss"

Then he'd at least be a quality roadblock for a decent price without making your warboss worse. He might still not be competitive with these changes but I'd wager a lot more people would be willing to try and find out..

Maybe he could be able to make some serious damage.
Now he' s not.
INFANTRY keyword is the key to swing twice, etc. And this is the way, how to make him do some serious damage.

PiñaColada wrote:
Honestly I think he'd be alright if they;
- Shave his points down to 250,
- Make his advance and charge aura work on himself
- Remove the restriction from "da biggest boss"

Then he'd at least be a quality roadblock for a decent price without making your warboss worse. He might still not be competitive with these changes but I'd wager a lot more people would be willing to try and find out..

I'd even drop him to 235 or lower. Old Thrakka already was overpriced and can do most things new Thrakka can.

Just allowing him to Waaagh! is what change him from an inherently flawed unit into an overpriced unit - moving 14"+2d6 instead of 14"+1d6 in two turns is huge, as it makes the difference between being able to charge and not being able to do so. It also makes kiting him near impossible.
Points will eventually be fixed, but GW is unlikely to fix a datasheet outside of codex releases.

That said, did you know that the stompa will start being viable around CA2025?

CA2025 you say? I think you are being too optimistic my friend

Well, if the keep going with dropping it by 50 points each year, I should be about right

At any rate. I am surprised we still don't have Saga's FAQ. Depending of the outcome the discussion may vary a lot.

Wasn't the day it was on stores 4.4(well those 3rd party stores that got it anyway...). If so 2 weeks would be filled by now so regular time for FAQ would be around next week. And corona causing slight delay would not be that surprising.

Worst case they do what they did with sisters. They don't consider this the launch date as not all could get it yet and will do it 2 weeks after the "proper" launch when everybody can get "to get more questions". Then it's up tp anybody's guess when the faq comes.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
At any rate. I am surprised we still don't have Saga's FAQ. Depending of the outcome the discussion may vary a lot.

Unfortunately, with their stores still closed thanks to COVID, and their book releases being technically behind at this point, I feel like we won't be getting it anytime soon. We're not the priority either since as far as I can tell, there's no big rules issues for the SW side of it, which is what they actually care about.

Not that grim. Wolves have old style doctrines and stratagems which needs errata to match rest unless GW intends wolves to be able to stay in same doctrine forever and have same named stratagem that works differently to marines.

I don’t think GW cares that much about SW either TBH. Other SM’chapters got way more love

SW's are the exception to the Marine favor GW is known to shower.
They dont get jack. And when they do its usually not in SW flavor, its copypasted over.

I'd love to take the word processor to the Space Wolves sometime, bring back more Viking and less Snarly McWolfWolf on his Thunderwolf mounted in a Skywolf with Wolfmissiles and wolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

But, this is the Ork forum, so I wanna talk Orks.

And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if tehre are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd love to take the word processor to the Space Wolves sometime, bring back more Viking and less Snarly McWolfWolf on his Thunderwolf mounted in a Skywolf with Wolfmissiles and wolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

But, this is the Ork forum, so I wanna talk Orks.

And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if tehre are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

Hmm, my instinct says melee tank brigade. You benefit nicely from the cover, you can continue to fallback and shoot or charge over and over making a trio of bonebreakers possibly quite fun. Spam some boosta blastas or the corkscrewed scrapjets to proc the mortal wounds repeatedly. And it is in the fluff, whole armies of looted tanks the orks are trying to be clever with.

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd love to take the word processor to the Space Wolves sometime, bring back more Viking and less Snarly McWolfWolf on his Thunderwolf mounted in a Skywolf with Wolfmissiles and wolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

But, this is the Ork forum, so I wanna talk Orks.

And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if tehre are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

There actually was some of this in the Saga of the Beast Psychic Awakening book.

They actually have little blurbs on the Wolfertons called "Sagas" to commemorate the glorious death of a mighty Yiff at the hands of the unending hordes of greenskin filth.

It was thankfully absent of much of the Wulfen or too much playup on them being wolfy. I can't speak to the book itself because I'm not really partial to fanfic and I'm already salty about the cover to the Psychic Awakening book. Plus I already know how it ends.

The actual Warhammer Community article on Space Yiffs was also based around them having a banquet in their great hall and sharing stories about slaying the puny greenskin filth and splattering their green gak all over the megaverse.

When is the damn FAQ coming

 Vineheart01 wrote:
SW's are the exception to the Marine favor GW is known to shower.
They dont get jack. And when they do its usually not in SW flavor, its copypasted over.

Heh. I'm still scarred by 2nd Ed days when it was the other way around to the point of borkenness, and sometimes I have to remined myself they aren't "just better marines" anymore. SWs got all the vanilla toys plus nifty rules, bling and characters on top, like extra heavy weapons in squads "because they don't follow the Codex Astartes". All it takes is a game designer to love or not an army to swing the army from OP/flavourful to meh/bland... seems they lack a furry friend in the team these days.

Though TBH I find that currently GW writes a better-balanced range of codices and regular point/rules update do much to correct the most glaring balance issues. Not perfect but at least gone are the days of 8 years without a codex update for Orks, that some veterans here may (not so) fondly remember

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, if the keep going with dropping it by 50 points each year, I should be about right

There is a small hope you can get a usable stompa from the kustom stompa in the new forgeworld index. I don’t think the points costs will be much lower however it might get a kff and the belly gun can be useful. Gaze of mork and lifts droppa arm may still suck.

Oh yeah, the re-written forgeworld rules. We heard any more about that? I'd love an excuse to do some converting work on my stompa, especially if it's viable in game.

cody.d. wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd love to take the word processor to the Space Wolves sometime, bring back more Viking and less Snarly McWolfWolf on his Thunderwolf mounted in a Skywolf with Wolfmissiles and wolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

But, this is the Ork forum, so I wanna talk Orks.

And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if tehre are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

Hmm, my instinct says melee tank brigade. You benefit nicely from the cover, you can continue to fallback and shoot or charge over and over making a trio of bonebreakers possibly quite fun. Spam some boosta blastas or the corkscrewed scrapjets to proc the mortal wounds repeatedly. And it is in the fluff, whole armies of looted tanks the orks are trying to be clever with.

Yeah, I've been eyeballing vehicles for a bit to see if anything clicks. The Gunwagon is universally reviled, but, I'm looking at it as a 3-4 Big Shoota platform, plus doubletapping the Killkannon, for 175... T 8, 16 wounds, 3+ save if the enemy's more than 18" away (that's the hard part), but able to just scoot out of melee and blast away happily instead of being tanklocked by some disposable infantry. I get antsy with that many points sunk into any single thing tho, so I was trying to find some good reviews of the new buggies, but those get a general "Meh" form most people without many details.

There are also standard buggies and wartrakks in Legends, but they're about as good as Deathkoptas, but don't fly, and cost more, so the Koptas seem a better choice (plus I have a bunch already, huzzah).

If Trukks could get a bit more boom on them, moving to a mechanized infantry could be possible. Units of just 10 boyz are super-squishy, but being able to charge, fall back, then charge again helps, and having a trukk there to charge first and suck up overwatch is a big help. I haven't really dove in to the assorted vehicle upgrades, like wrecking balls and whatnot, to see if they might plug a gap that the Trukks lack by not having a Razorback-like option. The Orks have several bike-alikes and Speeder-ish units, plus some smei-heavy tanks, but the medium level, where Razorbacks or Predators would go, is sorely lacking.

So, for now, I'm busy building boys (boys before toys!) and trying to find my old models to see what I might need to pick up in the future. Unlike the Evil Sunz, who are all about getting into melee fast, my guys would be more about hanging back and playing scoot-n-shoot, which is more Eldar than Ork but, well, Mork approves so it's all good.

The Blood Axe strat of 1 CP to infiltrate someone is also *really* good. I mean, yeah, you can use a Teleporta for big stuff, but for small units, half price is darn handy.

But, again, still in theoryhammer mode. Assembling a warboss tho. *really* wish there was a proper head with a cap tho. Blood Axes always look better when wearing hats.

Nostro wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
SW's are the exception to the Marine favor GW is known to shower.
They dont get jack. And when they do its usually not in SW flavor, its copypasted over.

Heh. I'm still scarred by 2nd Ed days when it was the other way around to the point of borkenness, and sometimes I have to remined myself they aren't "just better marines" anymore. SWs got all the vanilla toys plus nifty rules, bling and characters on top, like extra heavy weapons in squads "because they don't follow the Codex Astartes". All it takes is a game designer to love or not an army to swing the army from OP/flavourful to meh/bland... seems they lack a furry friend in the team these days.

Though TBH I find that currently GW writes a better-balanced range of codices and regular point/rules update do much to correct the most glaring balance issues. Not perfect but at least gone are the days of 8 years without a codex update for Orks, that some veterans here may (not so) fondly remember

GW has been putting a lot more effort into the competitive side of 40k. For a long, long time, GW was more about the hobby than the game, and more about the fluffy part of the game than the competitive part. They have made a concerted effort to change that, with very mixed results. But things like how quickly they nerfed their massive IH mistake shows they are trying, even if they aren't always succeeding. 5 years ago IH would have remained totally broken until the next edition (or until the next release broke things even more), because balance just wasn't a big priority.

That said, there's no doubt other considerations still sometimes trump competitive play - for example, I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that part of the reason they were willing to err on the side of overpowering space marines as much as they did was a desire to push sales of the primaris range, given how whelming they were originally. Not that they deliberately tried to create the IH monster - but that they weren't too concerned if they did if the side effect was to entrench primaris and get people to open their wallets for them. But to GW's credit, they don't routinely do this - look at Sisters, for example, a great book to go with a large new line of models, but not overpowered in obvious ways to sell the range.

Honestly I feel the buggies are the razorback/predator equivalent. A bit on the squishier side but will more special rules and nonsense going on. As for the gunwagons, well if they get to use periscope with the new kustom job upgrades they'll have some life, otherwise you're losing out attacks you'd get from a bone breaker or carrying space and opened topped you'd get from a regular battle wagon.

Death Koptas with big shootas are a decent unit. Like Nob bikers with the fly special rule. With Blood axe you can fallback, shoot and charge I believe, making them a pretty versatile unit to have lurking in any cover you can get to with their large movement.

Remember the blood axe strat is infantry only, and under a certain power value.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
SW's are the exception to the Marine favor GW is known to shower.
They dont get jack. And when they do its usually not in SW flavor, its copypasted over.

Right. Nevermind 5th ed wolves were one of the most powerful chapters. Ditto for 2nd edition. Wolves tend to get new kits, have more SW specific kits on store than say DA have DA specific...

lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, if the keep going with dropping it by 50 points each year, I should be about right

There is a small hope you can get a usable stompa from the kustom stompa in the new forgeworld index. I don’t think the points costs will be much lower however it might get a kff and the belly gun can be useful. Gaze of mork and lifts droppa arm may still suck.

Those are resin kits. GW has vested interest in making sure gamers don't buy those. Expect nerfs.

cody.d. wrote:
Honestly I feel the buggies are the razorback/predator equivalent. A bit on the squishier side but will more special rules and nonsense going on. As for the gunwagons, well if they get to use periscope with the new kustom job upgrades they'll have some life, otherwise you're losing out attacks you'd get from a bone breaker or carrying space and opened topped you'd get from a regular battle wagon.

Death Koptas with big shootas are a decent unit. Like Nob bikers with the fly special rule. With Blood axe you can fallback, shoot and charge I believe, making them a pretty versatile unit to have lurking in any cover you can get to with their large movement.

Remember the blood axe strat is infantry only, and under a certain power value.

Blood Axe s fall back and shoot *or* charge, not both, sadly. Whish is why I was looking more at shootyvehicles than melee vehicles. That said? I need to do some serious eyeballing of the Trukk upgrades.

And yeah, the Blood Axe is infantry only, but, that's fine. I was putting together a list of what it works with. 20 Boys, for instance, is sortakinda Da Jump once per game with no chance of failure, or dropping ten Tankbusters into range, having never been shot at, to alphastrike a tank or three, OR bringing in four Meganobz to wreck face and take space.

Using on Burnaboyz, who have an 8" range? Yeah no.

But a unit of regular Nobz suddenly showing up to say hello? Potential.

The Bonebreaka via Telaporta also has potential. Getting the 3D6" charge is expensive, CP wise (but Blood Axes can get those back!), but 9-10 attacks, on a 2+, with, what, Strength 8? 2 damage each, -3 save? That's erasing an entire unit of Primaris (the natural enemy of Da Orks) or rolling up a maxed-out unit of Shining Spears who suddenly find out that, oh yeah, that invulnerable save is only from shooting aie. That thing is a MONSTER, but you gotta use it just right.

And I don't think I'm trained enough to pull that off yet.

Kromlech do ‘Orc officer heads with hats’, but they tend to be Nob sized.

Wakshaani wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Honestly I feel the buggies are the razorback/predator equivalent. A bit on the squishier side but will more special rules and nonsense going on. As for the gunwagons, well if they get to use periscope with the new kustom job upgrades they'll have some life, otherwise you're losing out attacks you'd get from a bone breaker or carrying space and opened topped you'd get from a regular battle wagon.

Death Koptas with big shootas are a decent unit. Like Nob bikers with the fly special rule. With Blood axe you can fallback, shoot and charge I believe, making them a pretty versatile unit to have lurking in any cover you can get to with their large movement.

Remember the blood axe strat is infantry only, and under a certain power value.

Blood Axe s fall back and shoot *or* charge, not both, sadly. Whish is why I was looking more at shootyvehicles than melee vehicles. That said? I need to do some serious eyeballing of the Trukk upgrades.

That's true for most Blood Axe units but deffkoptas have fly so already have the ability to fallback and shoot, so they get to stack it with the Blood Axe kultur to to fall back, shoot, and charge.
From the FAQ:

Q: Are Blood Axe units with the Fly keyword allowed to both shoot and charge in a turn in which they Fell Back?
A: Yes.

Wakshaani wrote:


And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if there are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

**
EDIT1: so that came out as way bigger than intended.

TL;DR:
To make the most of BAs, try and use the facets with different units - means the list will likely be split into a kinda Hammer & Anvil, with the hammer subdivided in two.

ANVIL: shooty not-too mobile units that benefit from staying at range: Gunwagons, SAGs, Trukks/Waggons with shooting content (Flash Gitz, Lootas), Deffdreadz depending on loadout, Naughts depending on loadout

BIG HAMMER: tough (as in resilient or numerous) stuff that wants to charge stuff tougher than they are used to: Bonebreakas/BWs on some things that usually have scary AT, or Boys on some things that usually have scary AI
SMALL HAMMER:
- mobile units who still want to stay at range: Buggies, meched/deepstruck Tankbustas, Deffkoptas
- upfield units: Snikrot, Dead Sneakied characters or small infantry squads (5-man Nobz, 3/4-man MANz, 20-man Boyz), Kommandos, TP'd Dreadz or Naughts, Da Jumped Boyz

For your Anvil to benefit from BA Kultur, you want enough pressure with your Hammers to try and choke the opponent in his DZ as much as possible, keep him from closing in on your backline and force him to use longer range guns on them so you get the trait save bonus.


EDIT2: I don't recall seeing it discussed (because no one uses it ) but while writing the below wall of text, I was wondering about Clever Talk interaction with support overwatch, mostly T'au and some cases here and there (some Guard regiment with Chimera, etc).

RAW is pretty straightforward methinks, you shut down overwatch *from* the opponent unit and no *to* your own unit, so for example if charging a firewarrior squad next to a riptide:
I can clever-talk the FWs, who won't OW but the RIptide is going to FtGG at my unit
or I can also clever-talk the Riptide even if not charging it, the FWs wil OW my incoming charge but the RIptide can tag in.

Not sure if it is RAI (maybe they intended the friends to not be able to support as well) but in the meantime it's to keep in mind for T'au, it's not necessarily better or worse, just different. You'll need to clever-talk the nastiest unit in the vicinity, not necessarily the charge target. It allows you to charge several neighbours i

**


I don't know about a whole BA army but I've been theorycrafting a "Nobmandoz/Shokknobz" concept for a while (because Nobz and Gitz minis are beautiful) and tried to fit in some Blood Axes if only for Snikrot (because the mini is stupendous) so I got thinking about them quite a bit.

I feel the key to making them kinda work is to select units that benefit well from the klan and capitalize on them:

- cover at range => backline shooty units, and a good chunk of your army T1 if going second (saves you potential Prepared Postions cost)
- fallback and charge (or shoot) => frontline units that benefit from charging
- stratagem => characters or small infantry squads
- relic => for a nasty character or two
- PA Power => support frontline units

Sample dets:



So who are the candidates? (Disclaimer: Index-free meta, adapt to your local uses)


*HQ*

For characters, the most useful of Blood Axes aspect is imho Dead Sneaky.
At 1CP it's not too costly to build an annoying character that can second Snikrot in being a pain in the backfield, hiding from LOS and looking to bully objective defenders or tag/destroy fire support, and that you won't care too much to lose.

Fallback and charge may come in occasionally to switch the unit you were tagging but the opponent should have fallen back in its turn already; or to re-trigger the +1D of Brutal But Kunning on a hard target if you need that to win the fight - and can appropriately shut down overwatch if required. Other than that, not very useful.

Cover save as well might come in play if targeted from afar (eg snipers), but edge cases as well.

Warbosses & Megameks

Pre-PA, Morgog's Finkin' Kap would have been used mostly to get Follow Me Ladz for free, or I've Got a Plan Ladz on not-your-warlord.
Post-PA, while those uses are not obsolete, I think the Kap gives more opportunities elsewhere:

Between the Kap, the Killa Klaw and the strats (Biggest & Kleverest Boss) you can build 2 nasty characters instead of one. Granted, they won't individually match the classic KK build, but it means one is more expandable for not being your WL. And both have invuls to shooting. Eg:

- Warboss, Killaklaw, Da Biggest Boss, Warlord (BigKilla Boss)
- Megamek, KFF, PK, Da Kleverest Boss, Finkin Kap (Brutal But Kunning)

You can also stack them on one meanie:

- Warboss, PK, Da Biggest Boss, Finkin Kap (Brutal But Kunning), Warlord (Might is Right) => On the charge 6A with rerolls at S14 AP-3 Dd3+1 (before Fists of Gork), and has 7W at 4++.
- Killaklaw on another Warboss or on a Kleverest Megamek

There are quite some combinations to toy around with BKB, BBK and MiR as offensive traits, even 'Ard As Nails could be useful as a second trait if you're after improved survivability.

SAG Mek

Trait may come in marginally if for some reason you need/want your SAG out of actual cover... not much benefit here.

As for the previous paragraph, there are some shuffling possibilities with the traits, strats and relics, eg:

- SAG Mek, Da Kleverest Boss, SSAG, Warlorld (Bigkilla Boss)
- Warboss, PK, Da Biggest Boss, Finkin Kap (Brutal But Kunning)

or

- SAG Mek, Da Kleverest Boss, Finkin Kap (BigKilla Boss or Ard as Nails)
- Warboss, Da Biggest Boss, KillaKlaw, Warlord (BBK/BKB)

Also, I suspect Dead Sneakying a SAG (or even SSAG) in a backline hole to More Dakka & Double Shoot on an unsuspecting character (or other) may be gloriously fun if nothing else.
More reasonably, DSing somewhere far on a flank to get firing lines on stuff that is hiding from your main firebase can have some uses, even if having moved require More Dakka or landing somewhere he can survive for the next turn (will need bullet sponges like kommandos or Da Jumped grotz/boys)

Weirdboys

Not much benefit to them per se apart from the usual edge case free cover, but if building your list around chargers and infiltrators you'll probably want a lot Fists of Gork, Clever Talk, Da Jump and Warpath, with some levels of redundancy, so I expect you'd want more Weirdboys/Warpheads rather than less.

Deffkilla Wartrike

Here as well not many benefits per se, but if you're loading on Bonebreakas you may want him around.

There's probably also a combo to be found between the KoS relic Trike, the PA relic weapon, PA strat and the Finkin Kap that you may find satisfactory, though each time I try to kit him out I end up feeling I get more value on doing that with warbosses or megameks.


*Troops*

Boyz

Not much to see here: cover and fallback & charge are very unlikely to come up.

You can Dead Sneaky a 20 boys squad for 1CP though, so may be worth considering to coordinate with a Da Jumped squad to saturate an area; or if you were planning on Tellyporting 30 boys for 2CP, considering that as a cheaper alternative.

Da Jumped boyz can be a welcome support / meat shiled to your Dead Sneakied forces.

Grots

Good candidates to hide/ride in wagons of all sorts if you went that route; other thant that use as usual.


*Elites*

Tankbustaz

If you're used to tellyporting 10 TBs, you'll be happy to do that for 1CP instead of 2, or to split them in 2x5 and DS them in different locations for the same 2CP
If you're used to embarking your TBs, you may manage to eke out the +1 save with keeping the transport in the 18-24" range band, preferably at the 24" edge
If you're used to walking your TBs, they'll die just as easily as in other klans. (Ok, infinitesimally less easily if stars align).

Nobz

You can Dead Sneaky a 5-man squad for 1CP (hereby nicknamed Nobmmandos).

Only 5-man because the codex wording makes the squad jump to PL14 with the 6th Nob already which means 2CP to DS, same as Tellyporta.

If you're playing the backfield disruption game thay may come in handy, small footprint to DS and hide on arrival. Unsupported they can go after squishy units; with more commitment you can DS with them a KFF mek to hopefully weather some shooting, and/or a Weirdboy to Clever Talk to tag a shooty unit (Devs, TFC and whatnot) and/or Warpath them to improve damage.

Go easy on weapons, they're unlikely to live very long so keep them cheap and cheerful.

Meganobz

Codex PL wording is better for them so you can actually DS up to 4 MANz for 1CP. Do what they do best, plonk them somewhere they will be annoying to remove. They're easier to use unsupported than Nobmmandos, though support can also make them quite offensive.

Free cover may come in more often as they'll likely be away from the thick of the fight, so in later turns they could wobble out of cover and not worry too much about autocanon potshots or the like. Or in a pinch they could land in the open if you mange your ranges right.

Kommandoz

They look with envy at their Deathskullz brethren, but they can still be used to DS for free alongside your Snikrots and various character infiltrators to provide character protection.


*Fast Attack*

Buggies

For sure they can't match Deathskullz (who does?) but the usual suspects also fare decently, you're trading damage for durability.

Shokkjump Dragstas

They will want to hover in the 18-24" range band (preferably at the 24" edge) to get their save bonus, and it's usually where you want them so all good.
Kustom Job is almost mandatory to be there where you need them.

If you've invested in the Dead Sneaky part of you're army they're a great complement to pull Aeldari-like refused flank shenanigans: you can feign pushing for a flank with them then suddenly deplete it and whizz to the other side of the board where your MANz, KFF, Kommandos and whatnot start landing.

Megatrakk Scrapjet

Same thing as SJD with the 18-24" range.

Thing is, fallback & charge and Spiked ram + PA strats/KJ will tempt you into CC. As debated in the last pages of this thread, this is questionable as a general tactic to build around but can be useful in favourable circumstances / army.

Kustom Boosta-Blasta

A notch below the other two in general, and BA doesn't change that. It's still a choice between keeping it at range for the main gun and closing in for the exhaust, and said choice is harder in BA.

Still, it remains a decent (if not great) unit for its cost so why not; you may find them uses (chaff clearing and rivet potshots) that work with your list even if they themselves never use the BA trait.

Deffkoptas

May occasionally use its save if roaming around the edges of the battlefield, may at times be the best eligible unit to tag a Clever Talked shooty unit (eg: Devs, Leman Russes etc.), may reinforce your forward elements.

Equipped with big shootas it's a cheap low-threat unit than can easily get ignored by the opponent; fast, fly and fall back & shoot & charge, quite decent in CC. He can buzz around and be annoying like a wasp on a summer day.


*Heavy Support*

Bonebreakas

Occasional T1 save boost, occasional fallback & charge because the target will either be dead or have fallen back in their turn.
Main benefit is charging a Clever Talked unit that would normally be too threatening with it's AT loadaout.

Managing to pull off a glorious double BB charge (one with Red Rolla) on a clever-talked Knight or similar must be pretty satisfying.

Battlewagons

Anvil part if you really want to transport some stuff to join the fray; else BBs should work better.
Hammer part if loaded with shooty content to complement your backline: a BW with Forktress loaded with Flash Gitz can be 2+/5++, alongside a 3+ Boomerwagon and a 3+ Zagzapwagon this could force target priority errors for the opponent's longrange AT.

Gunwagons

See above, and as usual with mech the more the better. If the opponent has a couple Bonebreakas and other armour rushing to him, he'll probably concentrate his melta there and shoot long-range at your backline thus granting you the save bonus.
Usual caveat about enemy deepstriking short-range AT of all descriptions.

Lootas

The only way they realistcally benefit from BA - if you really want to use them - is embarked. Their ride may get it's 3+ save and they may get a 4+ save once they loot the wreck of their ride and stay at distance.

Deffdreadz

Not much experience with them but I assume you'd either want them assaulty with Pistons KJ to go join the no-overwatch anvil party, or shooty doing the edge-of-24"-range buggy dance but more clumsily because of your speed. If shooty, you'll probably want Sparkly Bitz for accuracy, or Dirty Gubbinz for resilience (-1 to hit and 2+ Sv in best conditions), or even Pistons to facilitate the buggy dance.

Nauts

Not much experience either but I assume similar ideas than Dreadz, though the opponent will probably close in on them with short-range AT with more urgency than Dreadz so I wouldn't count on the save too much after T1. Situational to benefit from a clever-talked target as they won't often be the more in need of avoiding overwatch (unless they're in danger of eating the fatal last wounds or one that brings you down a bracket in a fight where you'd need them not to)


*Transports*

Trukk

May get its bonus as a platform for shooty units in your Anvil and if you ave enough target saturation. Else they're going to see as much play as in the other klans: not much.


*Planes*

BA is not going to save you from rapid firing bolters, but may come handy here and there against dedicated AA guns, which are mostly longer-range and in the enemy backfield.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Honestly I feel the buggies are the razorback/predator equivalent. A bit on the squishier side but will more special rules and nonsense going on. As for the gunwagons, well if they get to use periscope with the new kustom job upgrades they'll have some life, otherwise you're losing out attacks you'd get from a bone breaker or carrying space and opened topped you'd get from a regular battle wagon.

Death Koptas with big shootas are a decent unit. Like Nob bikers with the fly special rule. With Blood axe you can fallback, shoot and charge I believe, making them a pretty versatile unit to have lurking in any cover you can get to with their large movement.

Remember the blood axe strat is infantry only, and under a certain power value.

Blood Axe s fall back and shoot *or* charge, not both, sadly. Whish is why I was looking more at shootyvehicles than melee vehicles. That said? I need to do some serious eyeballing of the Trukk upgrades.

And yeah, the Blood Axe is infantry only, but, that's fine. I was putting together a list of what it works with. 20 Boys, for instance, is sortakinda Da Jump once per game with no chance of failure, or dropping ten Tankbusters into range, having never been shot at, to alphastrike a tank or three, OR bringing in four Meganobz to wreck face and take space.

Using on Burnaboyz, who have an 8" range? Yeah no.

But a unit of regular Nobz suddenly showing up to say hello? Potential.

The Bonebreaka via Telaporta also has potential. Getting the 3D6" charge is expensive, CP wise (but Blood Axes can get those back!), but 9-10 attacks, on a 2+, with, what, Strength 8? 2 damage each, -3 save? That's erasing an entire unit of Primaris (the natural enemy of Da Orks) or rolling up a maxed-out unit of Shining Spears who suddenly find out that, oh yeah, that invulnerable save is only from shooting aie. That thing is a MONSTER, but you gotta use it just right.

And I don't think I'm trained enough to pull that off yet.

You posted that when I was typing so it seems the same units and ideas caught our eye

Just to reply about TPing the Bonebreaka; as I started piling up 1CPs to sneak characters and squad I figured I could spare some CP by pooling them into a BB into the TP (and beyond). I think if you're going for a single monster unit, it could work as you're shielding it from a turn of incoming fire and are willing to invest in Ramming Speed.
Though usual caveats apply: it's a big model so it may be hard to find a favourable spot to TP in, even more if the opponent is careful about spreading out small units to have 9" bubbles zoning out deepstrikers, or any no-DS-in-12" equipement/abilities that are starting to pop up (OTOH at least Marines and T'au have one).
And if you fail the charge you may be surrounded and cargo lost if the BB is destroyed.

If you have other wagons in your list, I'd argue they should all start on the board to add to the T7/8 saturation and force choices from the opponent (more choices = more opportunities for mistakes). Between Kustom Jobs (Forktress, Squig-Hide Tires and RedRolla) and support (Wartrike, embarked KFF Mek, or KFF Wazbom above) you have options to make your charge easier, survive on the way there and do more damage when you arrive. More wagons, less expensive cargo, let the rams & rollas do the job... "Boys before Toys" but Blitz Brigade style

Wakshaani wrote:
And right now, I'm still looking for anyone who's got some experience with Blood Axes in the current set. The only advice anyone had was "Don't play them, play this instead" but, I wanna do Blood Axes, heck with the tournament scene and meta and whatnot.

But if tehre are any Blood Axes Bosses out there that have stuck to the clan and given it a spin, I'd really love to hear what they have to say. "Just be Deathskulls/Bad moons" does me no good, you know?

I was a bloodaxe player until some time after the codex, the sad truth is that playing blood axes basically means not having a culture. I tried hard to make them work, but they just don't.
This isn't even about tournament meta - my "must be this strong to be viable" milestone is player of average skill who started collecting primaris marines with the DI set or one of the magazines and build up his collection with mostly primaris choices. So intercessors, helblasters, eliminators, captain in gravis, sergeant, librarian, one or two redemptors, hover tanks or planes. Some also have chapter-specific units and/or characters and some terminators or devastators. Not a super-powerful army, but one that can definitely win games if played well.
In my experience, you will have a really hard time beating even such an entry-level army with blood axes, no matter what units you bring.

If you have painted your army blood-axe style or you just like the look, there is the option to use one of the subcultures from psychic awakening - there are couple of decent ones in there that you can build around.

Still not convinced? Let's have a look at what bloodaxes can do:
1) Fall back and shoot OR assault
This sounds good if you are used to one of the standard armies like marines or eldar, but it's almost useless for orks. It only ever matters if you find yourself locked in combat during your movement phase, which means you either got charged or you charged something both of you somehow survived two rounds of combat and the opponent didn't fall back. This doesn't happend that often, orks tend to either kill something in combat or get wiped out.
There are very few units that can actually make use of them regularly:
- Megatrakk scrapjet. A unit caught between being decent in combat and not actually wanting to be in combat. As bloodaxes charging is much less of a risk since you can just fallback and shoot if you find yourself stuck in combat. The new kustom job even allows you to use the fight twice to tag and lock down as much as possible. Keep in mind that you cannot shoot *and* charge after falling back.
- Kustom Boosta-Blasta. Similar as above, you can make use of the spiked ram and tie down enemy units without losing your shooting.
- Koptas. These are the one unit which really gets better as bloodaxes, as you can shoot and tie down units every turn with them. With all the these units, make sure you don't charge things which can actually fight back.
- Warbikers. With Kult of Speed, you can have them in combat turn one and at least some of them tend to stick around until your next turn. Fall back and pick a more valuable target to lock down that the screen you hit turn 1.
- Bonebreaka with forktress. While the bonebreaka usually has no trouble kill things while in the first bracket, it might whiff on attack rolls when it degrades and it becomes stuck. Being able to back out of a fight and charge again keeps it more deadly.

2) +1 cover outside of 18"
Honestly, this might as well not exist. The vast majority of ork units have to be within at least 24" to do anything, so you rarely, if ever benefit from it. It helps units like SAGs against snipers, but you tend to be relying on KFF saves anyways.
In a dozen games or so, I had maybe five or six save rolls where it mattered.

3) Snikrot
He is a truely amazing character that can murder entire units by himself. If he bloodaxes weren't so bad, we would see a lot more play.

4) Discount for deep striking INFANTRY of PL8 or less.
The thing is, there aren't actually any good PL8 INFANTRY options. So 10 Burnas, 10 tank bustas, 20 boyz, 5 nobz or 4 MANz. All other units can either deep strike without help or can't use the stratagem. The only one worth considering would be the MANz, and maybe tank bustas. Other units are both to weak at less than full strength and are likely to fail their charges.
One thing you can do is deep strike characters to provide their aura where you need it. I've done this mostly with the Waaagh! banner, but you could also do it with a pain boy and/or KFF.
The big problem I've had here is that you the traits benefits vehicles, while this stratagem want infantry. In a vehicle list you could use MANz for objective grabbing and a banner nob to buff scrapjets or MANz where needed.

5) I’ve Got a Plan, Ladz! (Warlord trait)
On a 6+ you gain back a CP when using them. Sounds good in theory, but you can get back only one per battle round and usually burn through your CP in the first two battle rounds, and you cannot get back CP used for tellyport, kustom jobs, da biggest boss or dead sneaky. So you are looking at 0 or 1 CP, rarely 2.
Not worth sacrificing a warlord trait, especially since you can get +1CP from "Follow me, ladz!" on top of the warboss auras.

6) Finkin' cap
Buy a relic, get a warlord trait instead. Not as good as the killa klaw or the SSAG, but you can do some nice tricks with it, like have a second killy warboss on with Brutal but Kunnin', giving banner nob the warboss aura to create super-.buff bot, or a super-wartrike by piling on Brutal but Kunnin' and might is right on it. The only question is if its worth 3 CP, as the other two relics are already set.

7) Clever Talk
PA brought a pretty nice psychic power, allowing you to shut off overwatch an effectively forcing a unit to fight last on both your and their turn, which serves to reduce casualties. It's good enough to bring a weirdboy just for this, since you have plenty of units looking to stay in combat for longer.

What are they lacking?
- Means to improve their shooting. Ork shooting is pretty mediocre unless you multiply it. Bad Moons re-roll ones and shoot twice, deff skulls get tripple re-rolls, seizure and wreckers, evil suns have visions and can advance and shoot without penalty. Bloodaxes have nothing, which means you are probably locked into mek guns for fire support. You'd do well to put them into a dedicated grot mob battalion. If you do, some kanz with kustom jobs would also be an option. Otherwise, I guess flash gits are an option, but they don't mesh well with vehicles.
- Reliable deep strike assaults. Boyz, nobz, kommandoz or storm boyz won't survive the ~45% chance to fail a charge, so you should avoid deep striking them. A single naut, bonebreaka or deff dread could use ramming speed to get into combat anyways, so that would be an option.

So you're probably looking at a list with some buggies, a bonebreaka or two, some MANz, koptas, warbikers, mek guns and at least snikrot, weirdboyz, SSAG and killa klaw boss as HQ and gretchin for troops.
Sadly, no matter what you build, that very same army would be strictly better if run as deff skulls or evil suns, plus you are running a bunch of less-than-optimal units. In my gaming group, which is pretty laid back in terms of listbuilding, it was not enough to compete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, I've been eyeballing vehicles for a bit to see if anything clicks. The Gunwagon is universally reviled, but, I'm looking at it as a 3-4 Big Shoota platform, plus doubletapping the Killkannon, for 175... T 8, 16 wounds, 3+ save if the enemy's more than 18" away (that's the hard part), but able to just scoot out of melee and blast away happily instead of being tanklocked by some disposable infantry. I get antsy with that many points sunk into any single thing tho, so I was trying to find some good reviews of the new buggies, but those get a general "Meh" form most people without many details.

I assure you that the gunwagon is more meh than most of the buggies Especially scrapjets and shokkjump dragstas have become pretty powerful.
In general, you should avoid buying any big shootas that aren't mandatory, it's a terrible weapon. Look a few pages back for the discussion on this.

If Trukks could get a bit more boom on them, moving to a mechanized infantry could be possible. Units of just 10 boyz are super-squishy, but being able to charge, fall back, then charge again helps, and having a trukk there to charge first and suck up overwatch is a big help.

The issue here is that a unit of 12 boyz charges and is either dead next turn, killed their target or the enemy fell back themselves. You will never be in the situation where a unit of trukk boyz will fall back from an enemy.

I haven't really dove in to the assorted vehicle upgrades, like wrecking balls and whatnot, to see if they might plug a gap that the Trukks lack by not having a Razorback-like option. The Orks have several bike-alikes and Speeder-ish units, plus some smei-heavy tanks, but the medium level, where Razorbacks or Predators would go, is sorely lacking.

Almost all of the vehicle equipment is a waste of time. The only good upgrade is the deff rolla.

So, for now, I'm busy building boys (boys before toys!) and trying to find my old models to see what I might need to pick up in the future. Unlike the Evil Sunz, who are all about getting into melee fast, my guys would be more about hanging back and playing scoot-n-shoot, which is more Eldar than Ork but, well, Mork approves so it's all good.

These days, the only way to use boyz is having units of 30 and deep striking them into your opponent's face. They don't have the durability or the range to sit back and shoot, you can safely assume that the "new player"-marine army I described above will easily wipe out 30-60 boyz within 24". A competitive army or one tailored towards killing orks can tackle 60-90 per turn.
Their job is to keep your enemy busy and drag shooting units into combat so you can focus down high priority targets.

I wouldn't use marines as base level though seeing how brokenly good they are atm...Even with nerfs they still are pulling punches above their point costs.

The brokenly good part is all but irrelevant unless you play the right units. The pile-of-primaris painted in blood angels, dark angels, ultramarines, space wolves or salamanders isn't any stronger or weaker than your average eldar, ork or sisters army.

And I actually made that experience before Space Marines 2.0 - it probably has become worse.

Blood Axe rules are good on paper. Like, being able to universally fall back and charge / shoot is great.

+1 sv is outside of 18" is great (albeit worse than the much better marine version).

But then:
1) Ork units are fragile and don't typically survive multiple combats TO fallback.
2) Most of our guns are short ranged at 24". So, the enemy can just step up and get close if they even care our 6+ save boys are now 5+. Woof.

And if you had to choose that or Grot Mobs, Bad Moons, Evil Suns, Deathskulls, or a Pyro air swing, it seems clear you're just hamstringing yourself.

Not to mention most of ork units have less than stellar saves and armour bonus helps most the more save you have. As it is not that insignificant amount of guns ignore boyz save cover bonus or not!

Bloodaxes would probably make a pretty decent space marine chapter or eldar craftworld

if cover was still a static 5+ save unless ignored or specified its a 4+ that trait would be useful.
The fact that AP bypasses cover now renders cover useless unless you already have a high save.

Bloodaxes might as well not even have that perk, only the vehicles actually benefit from it due to the huge range limiter on it but then you lose the reroll perks (and most of whats gonna hit them at that far would still render them to a 6+ or worse, so might as well just have the 6++ from Deathskullz)

Even if that trait was just "in cover at all times" it wouldnt be that amazing. Like what was already stated, boyz getting a 5+ isnt that great since its so easily ignored anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:
Bloodaxes would probably make a pretty decent space marine chapter or eldar craftworld

Yeah exactly. The rules are actually solid. I think that's why people place Axes above a lot of the other low tier cultures, and probably closer to Freebootas in terms of quality.

It's just a square peg for a round hole. Maybe when we get Orkercessors for 17 points with 30-36" range guns we'll have a Blood Axe revolution.

Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Paying 2 CP to make your boys a 5+, or 4+ is not a good idea. if Ard Boys was 1 CP... maybe?

I like Nobs on paper a lot. Like the 16 point version you can build is this:

Kustom Shoota, Choppa.
4 Shots at 18", 4 attacks base (3 + choppa) at str 5, 4+ save, 2 wounds.

This sort of seems close to being an intercessor... They hit the same amount I think (2 shots at BS3+ hits the same as 4 shots at BS5+ on average, ignoring exploding 6's). But I just don't think they land. Not being troops for one. The range of their guns being 18" hurts, and there's no real way of upgrading their AP outside of Best Skulls new psychic power.

If Nobs were troops, I wonder if they would make more of an appearance in Ork lists.

tulun wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Paying 2 CP to make your boys a 5+, or 4+ is not a good idea. if Ard Boys was 1 CP... maybe?

I like Nobs on paper a lot. Like the 16 point version you can build is this:

Kustom Shoota, Choppa.
4 Shots at 18", 4 attacks base (3 + choppa) at str 5, 4+ save, 2 wounds.

This sort of seems close to being an intercessor... They hit the same amount I think (2 shots at BS3+ hits the same as 4 shots at BS5+ on average, ignoring exploding 6's). But I just don't think they land. Not being troops for one. The range of their guns being 18" hurts, and there's no real way of upgrading their AP outside of Best Skulls new psychic power.

If Nobs were troops, I wonder if they would make more of an appearance in Ork lists.

Yeah, the Ard Boyz stratagem is inherently flawed. It was clear GW was worried about a wombo combo of some sort of combining Loot It! and BA trait/cover to get really "high" armour save Ork units. Unfortunately, they also failed to factor that they throw high AP weapons around like candy, so the 5+ save they value at such a high CP cost is pretty much ignored by the rest of the armies in the game. The worst part is that there is an infinitely more cost effective alternative with the KFF, that applies across multiple units and (assuming the newest version is intended) it applies in CC as well, making the stratagem an overpriced dud. You'd have to make it 1 CP for a 4+ save for an Ork boy unit to be considered worth it, since the majority of weapons will already reduce the save to a 5+ or lower and we're already CP starved given how much we spend it before the game starts.

Frankly, I wish GW would just give more variation for saves in Ork units in general, since the Ork elites section should have slightly heavier armour than Boyz to begin with. Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Kommandos could all do with a baseline 5+ save so that they could actually benefit from using Loot It in some way.

 Grimskul wrote:


Yeah, the Ard Boyz stratagem is inherently flawed. It was clear GW was worried about a wombo combo of some sort of combining Loot It! and BA trait/cover to get really "high" armour save Ork units. Unfortunately, they also failed to factor that they throw high AP weapons around like candy, so the 5+ save they value at such a high CP cost is pretty much ignored by the rest of the armies in the game. The worst part is that there is an infinitely more cost effective alternative with the KFF, that applies across multiple units and (assuming the newest version is intended) it applies in CC as well, making the stratagem an overpriced dud. You'd have to make it 1 CP for a 4+ save for an Ork boy unit to be considered worth it, since the majority of weapons will already reduce the save to a 5+ or lower and we're already CP starved given how much we spend it before the game starts.

Frankly, I wish GW would just give more variation for saves in Ork units in general, since the Ork elites section should have slightly heavier armour than Boyz to begin with. Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Kommandos could all do with a baseline 5+ save so that they could actually benefit from using Loot It in some way.

Yeah, I agree. You'd think some of this heavy bulky equipment might give them more of a save anyway that the elite units hold.

Given the fact that Orks are super CP hungry, having only 2 troop choices is really annoying too. It would be nice to have way more variation or some ability to pay for some variation.

yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

Yeah, it makes list building that much more monotonous since realistically its literally either a tide of boyz or gretchin as our core, which really limits the theme of some of the other lists we have like Dred Mob and Buggy or even Nob-oriented lists. If they made regular Nobz troops or, as Vineheart01 previously mentioned, a new Trukkboyz variant was created that gained some extra bonus for being in or disembarking a transport, it would be really good, even if the only thing they gained was being able to disembark and charge even after the Trukk has already moved. Just to add more variety in our lists and make it less predictable as well for our opponents. Heck, I'd be fine with Stikkbombas coming back in some fashion.

I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

To be honest, having a different profile for shoota boyz versus slugga/choppa boyz would be a good way of introducing weapon variety as well since upgrades are pretty much non-existent for boyz mobs at this point in 8th ed. At BS4+, rokkit launchas aren't a terrible investment in the unit, especially Bad Moonz shoota boyz. If they ever cut the price of BS to 2 points or something, they might also even be worth taking. Slugga boyz could take burnas or big choppas as special weapons. Ard Boyz should never have been a stratagem based unit to be honest and having them as a separate unit entry would also make it so that we can have an semi-elite esque army without having to resort to grot filler or losing out on vital CP's.

For anyone tearfully looking at their enormous painted Blood Axes army and wondering whether to repaint, just tell opponents that it counts-as a Deathskulls army who looted everything from Blood Axes

 Grimskul wrote:

Yeah, it makes list building that much more monotonous since realistically its literally either a tide of boyz or gretchin as our core, which really limits the theme of some of the other lists we have like Dred Mob and Buggy or even Nob-oriented lists. If they made regular Nobz troops or, as Vineheart01 previously mentioned, a new Trukkboyz variant was created that gained some extra bonus for being in or disembarking a transport, it would be really good, even if the only thing they gained was being able to disembark and charge even after the Trukk has already moved. Just to add more variety in our lists and make it less predictable as well for our opponents. Heck, I'd be fine with Stikkbombas coming back in some fashion.

Or if whole army building wasn't focused on getting as much CP by filling in as many battalions/brigades as you can...

Stil think armies should start with base CP amount and each detachment would deduct CP rather than give.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

We have seen plenty of lists with just 60 boyz, but in general I agree. Having 210 point troops sucks.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

Being able to disembark after moving would instantly make mobs of 12/20 a lot better than they are now. If 9th comes, it hopefully changes how transports work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

That's just imperial guard though...
I don't think armor or a better BS will solve any of their problems. Going back down to 6ppm would help, as would cheaper big shootas and rokkits. Considering how the sprue has both, it might even viable to say shoota boyz can have both a big shoota and a rokkit for every 10 boyz in the mob.

Boys should be allowed some more weapon options outside of the Nob.

Extra melee choice in there for every 5-10 dudes included would be comparable to many other army.

Bigdoza wrote:
Boys should be allowed some more weapon options outside of the Nob.

Extra melee choice in there for every 5-10 dudes included would be comparable to many other army.

It takes much longer to play units with different weapons inside it, such as genestealers with acid maws. I personally think it’s not a good idea at all for that reason. Perhaps if one day this game gets speeded up with different rules

Lol could you imagine a big Choppa mob.

Like you saying keep all weapons the same, just make it 30 big choppas haha.

Expensive as hell. 30 boys what 360 pts

If they made a separate Troop slot called trukkboys for 7 or 8ppm with;

- Same statline and gear options as boyz
- Instead of "green tide" they get the ability to move, advance & charge after the trukk they're embarked on has moved
- Unit size of 6-12

Would people then use them? You'd get pretty cheap troop slots but the trukk itself ain't that cheap. And while even 6 boyz can mulch some screens that'd be their primary use (and tagging things if possible). Sure, they'd be super mobile but I'm not sure it's enough to justify using them even then..

Edit: Either they're 8ppm or they're 7ppm but then only legally taken if they start inside a trukk (meaning you can't take them as cheap small squads of boyz without splurging on a trukk as well)

Simply put, boys need to go back to 6ppm and they need to offer a 1ppm upgrade to 5+ armor.

The fact is that 5+ armor isn't anything to write home about and would only give them a marginal increase in durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, compare a 7ppm boy to a 4ppm Guardsman. The Guardsman is hands down better at range and has a lot of upsides, the boy is just way better at CC.

I would pay more than 1pt for 5+ boys

it used to be 4ppm for a 4+, making boyz 10pts.

Nobody did that because of the way old AP worked, ignoring a 4+ was really easy and it almost doubled your boy cost.

1pt for 5+ with any ap basically removing it sounds right. Theres so many high RoF ap1 out there that its not that big a deal to goto a 5+ save, even if it means cover = 4+

Nobs as troops seems reasonable to me too without changing much.

5 Nobs with big choppa, choppa and 1 grot shield 99 points. I could see that being a nice cheap throw away unit to Da Jump and charge, and it has decent punch even at 5 models. Add in warpath.

Bigdoza wrote:
Lol could you imagine a big Choppa mob.

Like you saying keep all weapons the same, just make it 30 big choppas haha.

That would be great stuff, if like BC for boys was 2 pts. 9 points BC boyz feels balanced. Don’t think many would use them though. I definitely would

270 points for 30 boyz which would decimate what they touch, but still die like normal boyz

I always liked the idea of separating sluga boys and shoota boys. I would also go one step further to add "Trukkboys" as well, for 3 unique variations on the Boys profile.

Shoota boys I would allow more big shootas, and drop the cost for them. EG up to half the mob can have big shootas. massed, long range but still not OP firepower. Big Shootas would be quite good if half a mob had them, and they camped in the backfield using their 36" range.
Otherwise I would keep their stats the same - higher BS orks isn't how orks do, they use more bullets to get more hits.

Slugga boys would be as-is

Trukkboys would have the ability to declare a charge from their trukk, mesuring from the trukk as if it were the closest model in the unit. Overwatch still applies as if the unit were on the board, and the unit is deployed with none of their models outside the charge roll distance from the trukk - possibly in combat (let's face it, if they fail that charge they'll probably die, so it's a gamble!).

I want to see more flavours of Nobs as well - perhaps a Nob parody of the Aggressors, with low-grade mega armour (5" move, 3+ save) and dual-guns to kick out all the dakka. 10 nobs with 2 big shootas apiece and a 3+ save would be an awesome chaff-clearing unit to behold!

The ability to straight up charge out of a trukk would be hilarious and very fitting for orks. Even if the boyz got absolutely nothing else i'd use them for that alone lol

And i agree, we need a shooty nob thats worth a damn. Flash Gitz dont count, theyre their own thing (also freeboota locked). Honestly if they just allowed the current nob to take dual Kustom Shootas it would be potent, thats 40(edit, 80) S4 shots at 160pts and still has 30 S5 melee punches.

/wishlistingoff

Unfortunately with PA already passed unless they release a random new Boy kit i MASSIVELY doubt we'll get anything in that field.

Do you mean 80 str 4 shots? Kustom Shootas are 4 shots each.

Cause they can technically already do that (40 shots) except they have 4 base attacks with the choppa

Assuming index options for Nobs is still a thing.

Derp right why'd i think 40....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Derp right why'd i think 40....

I actually got some Kustom Shoota bits to build some Nobs with that kind of loadout (choppa / Kustom Shoota), with a couple Big Choppa nobs mixed in.

I think I'll bring em out for fun in the next couple of games I play. Combo it with Maniacal Seizure to get a butt load of AP-1 (or AP-2 BCs).

Valid.
That spell is bonkers good, i may want to go back to kustom/choppa instead of dual-choppas because of it.
That and avoid all the "That isnt legal" comments..yes..its legal to do that...its not legal to take 2 of the "2h weapons" like kombis or bigchoppas.

I'm not sure it's valid, as GW has not been explicit about index options.

But that's what magnets are for.

And yeah, I totally agree. Seizure is so damn potent. AP-1 Choppas / Shoota shots are just a game changer.

If folks find good ways of maximizing the use of it, it'll push some fun builds imo. Big Shootas platforms (like on the Megatrakk) start to look a helluva lot better just by increasing that AP by 1, and a lot of armies have death ball units you wanna pour fire into anyway.

The inability of being able to charge out of a trukk that has moved is only one of several issues with Trukk mobs.

You still have to deal with the Trukk tax itself, their poor morale (because by the end of the turn, 4-5 will be dead and it's unlikely there are any masses of Orks nearby for them to borrow the mob rule from), low attack output from the limited numbers and not getting Green Tide, and just overall lack of impact thanks to the neutering of the hidden PK.

they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

Actually it's in a weirder space than that.

Nobs aren't mentioned in legends period.

And the index flowchart was modified quietly (disappeared).

So officially, index options are... who the hell knows.

It might literally be illegal to give a nob a kustom shoota.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

Actually it's in a weirder space than that.

Nobs aren't mentioned in legends period.

And the index flowchart was modified quietly (disappeared).

So officially, index options are... who the hell knows.

It might literally be illegal to give a nob a kustom shoota.

One of the few times I'm glad I'm not in a hyper comp environment and indexes are still valid. I find it incredibly annoying that they take away all the flavourful options because of the "no model, no rules" stance since frankly it seems counterintuitive even in terms of sales. Wouldn't you want customers to buy extra kits to make the stuff that isn't a clampack that they sell? Their attempts to deny the 3rd party market after the Chapterhouse debacle seems spiteful and damaging long-term wise for their range, outside of their marine poster boys.

The only way i could see them viewing the kitbashing scene as a loss in sales is when you see the kits that use generic modeling kits like A10's for Dakkajets or old WW2 tanks "orkified"
Those are kinda rare though, i see one or two of them occationally but i more see a weird mashup of 2-3 or more GW kits. So i agree, it seems really dumb to take away options that arent part of the kit normally. Hell in that recent article showing off someone's really large, heavily kitbashed model the dude had a THUNDERHAWK kitbashed into his army lol we dont even have rules for a big plane (yet, hopful for 'Eavy Bomma still)

As ive said before it would have been fine for them to goto this new "no model no rules" mentality if they properly updated our kits first. Most armies lost a couple of things, we lost well over a dozen rather popular things. A ton of our codex options were kitbash or finecast kit only (or both...kommandos?).

Bigdoza wrote:
I would pay more than 1pt for 5+ boys

As already pointed out, it used to be 4ppm to upgrade Boyz from a 6+ to a 4+. That made boyz go from 6ppm to 10ppm and nobody used it except a handful of fluffy for fun armies, none on the competitive scene. Boyz are ok right now at 7ppm but in most competitive lists they take a backseat to 3ppm Grotz who are just better for CP generation and grot shielding important things. At 6ppm they would still be in a very similar place but give them the option to go up to 7ppm with a 5+ save? Yeah I would probably use that, make it 8 and maybe, 9+? No way. As it stands there are so many different ways for armies to just completely ignore 6+ saves and a number that ignore 5+ that its ridiculous. So pricing a bad armor save that heavily would be silly. Now, if it was going to 4+ save? yeah, that would be important, 3+ more so. Keep in mind how cheap tactical Marines are and remember they have a 3+ save and with their new buffs they are AS good at CC model for model as an ork boy on the charge. 1 attack base, 1 for charge and 1 for having a Chainsword. I think 7ppm boys with a 5+ wouldn't be that bad.

As long as we wouldn't pay for it.

We already get a 5++ with the KFF. Yeah you can't always stay in range, but it would be awful to pay for an armour save that really isn't going to pull much weight, given AP-1 mass infantry fire is abundant in high level play.

Boys are the backbone of current top table lists. Jeff Poole had... 115 boys or so? So there's something that they do well to make Top 8.

It would just be nice to be able take them in smaller amounts and not gimp yourself in list building.

The most I'd be willing to pay for a mob of 4+ boyz would be 1CP.

Current top list are just the thing we had before there was a codex. Drown the table in boyz while you put pressure on your opponent and blow up their stuff with undercosted smashas. The only difference is that there are now stratagems. Meh.

Would you use Trukk Boyz if they worked something like this:

9ppm, with same stat line as Boyz.

'Da Trukk Protects!

Trukk Boyz count Trukkz as a mob of 10+ Boyz for the purposes of Mob Rulez.'

'Mobile Assault

Trukk Boyz may assault out of a Trukk even if it has moved or advanced. The assault is measured from the Trukk's hull.'

''Eavy Metal Charge

When charging out of a Trukk that has advanced Trukk Boyz gain +1 str and -1 ap for the round.'

Before you fix trukk boys you need to fix the trukks. They just aren’t competitive regardless if you put tankbustas or boys or nobz or MANZ in them.

If we ever get a 9th edition and they decide to trim down rules again maybe they can incorporate loot it strategem into the trukks profile. Or improve ramshackle. Regardless it’s getting to the point strategems are just updates to improve weak units so I don’t expect a new profile but rather strategems or specialized detachments to improve trukk boyz

I don't know that trukks need to be improved, just made cheaper. Current ramshackle is bad for the points you pay on the unit, if we were paying 40-50 points for a BS Trukk it'd feel right - you wouldn't want it to be too good or Trukks would be spammed as roadblocks, but as it is that odd damage 5 Lascannon shot that is effectively wasted feels like it would be an appropriate reward at that reduced cost on top of the general function of the Trukk.

I know, an opponent shooting lascannons at a Trukk is making a mistake to begin with, but I encounter it often enough when they don't have enough targets because I've hidden others, or they want more impact in their T1 shooting and don't want to throw everything against the KFF shielded vehicles (I'm stubborn enough to still run 3-4 Trukk mobs, it works ok with the overall vehicle saturation in my list) so they settle for trying to pop a Trukk early.

actually i commonly get a rocket or lascannon hitting my trucks.
Generally its just 1 of those and a handful of small arms to kill it and if theres anything other than boyz in that trukk theres a valid reason to taking it out quickly.
I do think trukks need to be cheaper. They cost almost the exact same a rhino does and is way easier to kill. Really all it has going for it is the Wrecking Ball, while inaccurate, if it hits can still do a ton of damage and its only 3pts so why not use it.
Ramshackle almost never goes off for me. I think ive had 1 instance where it happened and forced my opponent to charge or shoot the trukk with something else to get rid of it, other times if i get it at all i still died anyway. I still wish wagons had that rule though, theyre just trukks with extra stuff slapped on after all.

Honestly, Trukks seem to be better as shooting platforms than assault platforms with their cost / rules as is.

Protecting Flash Gits / Tankbustas seems to be more important than assaulting out of them. I'd rather take an extra 10 boys than the trukk, as I have a delivery system for boys via Deepstrike.

What do 11 boys + 1 nob realistically do for you if you charge, especially after eating an overwatch?

Ramshackle should be turned into a feel no pain like ability at 5+ thus making your trukks and any vehicles that need ramshackle more 1/3 more durable which is a major trukk issue.

A 1 pt strategem allowing a unit to disembark and charge after moving in a trukk or wagon would be useful as well.

Cost is an issue but trukks don’t have a clear purpose right now.

Trukks are in a really weird spot right now, as others have mentioned, it's better as a shooting platform than an assault transport, partly with how disembarking works with this edition, but also from its complete and utter lack of offensive ability and almost nil defensive properties.

I feel like either the trukk has to go down in overall durability for a cheaper base cost (tougher than a venom but less than what it is now), or that it has to be worth the premium price point it's set right now. The big shoota is a complete tax that frankly should be optional and all the vehicle upgrades don't really do anything. At most, reinforced rams should give them the buggy ability of doing mortal wounds on a 4+ after a successful charge. Boarding planks should give the disembark and charge ability if its not a rule inherent to a trukk boyz or trukk unit itself (would help battlewagons as well). Have the wreckin' ball act as a pseudo deffrolla for trukks by giving them +2 to hit in CC (+3 to hit and D3 extra attcks if they charged that turn).

I agree with the previous poster that Ramshackle should be a more consistent ability, either as a 5+ FNP or 5+ to reduce damage to it to 1, since on a 6, it feels like we're paying for an ability that happens once every 3 games or something.

So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

The most cost effective way that isnt tapping into 3D printing for smasha guns is to just kitbash them out of trukk kits.
Its still pricy but nowhere near as bad. All the alternative models ive seen have either been a Kannon or just about as expensive.

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm pretty sure there's a model 57 or 75mm field gun kit from tamiya that is a little bit bigger footprint than our arty kit but is like 12 bucks per set rather than 50.

I am currently using some grot tanks as mek guns.
Alternatively you can always make your owns with plasticard.

Following are mines.

you know its pretty bad when a forgeworld alternative is cheaper....

I use 6x GW kits magnetized to all variants. It’s pretty much my limit on any non infantry model. I refuse to buy more so I generally don’t chase spam lists.

Almost every tournament list I’ve seen has some form of kit bash used instead of using 18.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
I am currently using some grot tanks as mek guns.
Alternatively you can always make your owns with plasticard.

Following are mines.

Them some damn nice Mek guns. Though admittedly if I saw them on the field i'd assume they were Kustom Mega Kannons rather then Smasha Guns.

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm a big fan of the Goblin Gunz by Minature Scenery. You get 3 Mek Gunz for less than the cost of 1. They're Australian, which is great for me but might mean expensive shipping for those of you overseas. Our dollar tends to be weaker than other currencies, so you probably still come out ahead. No grots included but you can easily compensate with some minor conversions to regular grots.

Smasha gunz - there are pretty fine wargamexclusive alternatives, but still about 30 e instead 40.

The best way is kitbash. Traditional way is 3 different gunz from Trukk and 1 gun. But in may opinion, there is more interesting and effective way.

1. You need a wheels or tracks. Hop in the big toy store, check the toy tanks and APC. the best buy are 8x8 APC. You get 8 wheels a lot of plastic with details to saw in a parts. Dollar stores should be cheaper, but it' s hard to find suitable models to harvest there.

2. You need a gun. Look around you, there is quite a lot of potentional sci-fi guns. There are spark plugs pf course. Ad a plastic card tips and you have a great smusha gunz. Or there are parts of cabels, pc, radio. Or there are plastic tips from markers, medicine and cosmetics.

3. Kitbash the rest form trukk and other models. Add gw details to fit your kitbash to scale and style of other models.

Have fun.

Btw. super fine source of different parts are hasegawa german railroad gunz like Leopold / Enzo Enie. So much details! So much good parts. Adam Sawage describes how almost every Star Wars ship or building have some details fromthwt kit.

And now back to tactics!

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

Check out the ‘toy soldier’ options on eBay for their artillery pieces. They tend to be in an outer style, if somewhat femme on the wheels. A good source of wheels is cheap toy cars. The only down side to this is they are not GW, and are in the polythene plastic which makes glueing an issue. I find screws a better option. Enjoy.

 Quackzo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm a big fan of the Goblin Gunz by Minature Scenery. You get 3 Mek Gunz for less than the cost of 1. They're Australian, which is great for me but might mean expensive shipping for those of you overseas. Our dollar tends to be weaker than other currencies, so you probably still come out ahead. No grots included but you can easily compensate with some minor conversions to regular grots.

Oh those are some nice Mek Gunz, the magnet is an adorable thing to use for a traktor gun. xP

Im using these as a baseline, but havnt done much of the work yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36YQIP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

Check out Goblin Gunz at https://miniaturescenery.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19 for a fraction of that.

Caveat... it's a bit of a challenge to assemble but looks amazingly orky.

edit: ninja'ed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So... I've been on 40k hiatus for a bit after giving all of my armies to my son except for Orks... I'm thinking of diving back in.

I've played 8th ed extensively mainly with DE and Daemons/CSM, but I'm definitely an Ork newbie.

I'm planning on assembling 16 Goblin Gunz from miniature scenery (having decided to field all those tho) as I know they're one of the best shooting platform.

How competitive are the following:
-30 man boys (either set at this unit size, or mobbing up 10man & 20man) and Da Jumping turn one? (also Warpath'ing too?) Not sure I want to go full bore 40 man mobbed up unit, but I'm just looking to field one big boyz unit, then rest of the troops being gretchins. Is one big mob enough to give opponents fits? Or is this one of those tactics that if I'm going with large mobs of boyz, it's better to have multiples?

-What's better? Three CC Deff Dreads (each 2x klaw, 1x saw, scorcha with KJ Dirty Gubbinz) or 6x shoota Killa Kans (with KJ sparkly bits)? I plan on Tellyporta for turn 2 Carnifex distraction...

-I know warbikers isn't a thing in 8th ed, and I have a ton from my 5th ed days... but, wouldn't a maxed out warbiker squad function as simply a mobile shooting platform? Mainly targeting large cheap squads or small elite units?

Opinions on what clan(s) I should run for a competitive ork list? I’ve been mainly looking at suns/bad moons/skulls but I’m getting really interested in a pure Freebooterz army and wondering how viable it is?

Drdotts wrote:
Opinions on what clan(s) I should run for a competitive ork list? I’ve been mainly looking at suns/bad moons/skulls but I’m getting really interested in a pure Freebooterz army and wondering how viable it is?

Specific styles of Freebootas have done fine, even in ITC. There's a list kicking around that got top 8 recently with 30 flash gits and a gak ton of grots.

The most competitive lists mix clans; Probably the best one right now will be Evil Suns / Deathskulls / Grot Mobs, for a core of boys (evil Suns), stuff to pump your shock attack guns (Deathskulls), and stuff to boost your mek guns (Grot mobs). Most top lists are a variation of boys with some kind of shooting element support.

The best mono clan is undoubtedly Deathskulls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:


How competitive are the following:
-30 man boys (either set at this unit size, or mobbing up 10man & 20man) and Da Jumping turn one? (also Warpath'ing too?) Not sure I want to go full bore 40 man mobbed up unit, but I'm just looking to field one big boyz unit, then rest of the troops being gretchins. Is one big mob enough to give opponents fits? Or is this one of those tactics that if I'm going with large mobs of boyz, it's better to have multiples?

-What's better? Three CC Deff Dreads (each 2x klaw, 1x saw, scorcha with KJ Dirty Gubbinz) or 6x shoota Killa Kans (with KJ sparkly bits)? I plan on Tellyporta for turn 2 Carnifex distraction...

-I know warbikers isn't a thing in 8th ed, and I have a ton from my 5th ed days... but, wouldn't a maxed out warbiker squad function as simply a mobile shooting platform? Mainly targeting large cheap squads or small elite units?

1) I don't think 1 unit of boys generally does well (or a 20/10 split). The power of boys seems to be in tying down your opponent while you score / go after their other pieces, and you will need more than 1 turn / unit to do that (your 30 man squad should be dead from the counter charge). Someone else can probably speak better to this than I, though.

2) Skorchas are not a competitive choice on dreads. Too expensive, and you will probably almost never get them to shoot. My favourite kit out is the Deathskull Klaw / saw / KMB / KMB dread, personally. The full CC one too out of deep strike is also good.

3) They are boy substitutes, not gun platforms. You use them as another way of tying stuff up, as they can have a MASSIVE movement turn 1 with specialist detachments and stratagems (I believe with a new kustom job, hypothetically 36" before charging).

Drdotts wrote:
Opinions on what clan(s) I should run for a competitive ork list? I’ve been mainly looking at suns/bad moons/skulls but I’m getting really interested in a pure Freebooterz army and wondering how viable it is?

The trio of Evil Suns/ Bad Moons/ Deathskulls made a lot of sense prior to all this but I honestly think it's a bit up in the air at the moment with a combination of Saga coming out and games mostly being limited to Table Top Sim. It's worth noting the difficulties of playing a horde list in Table Top Sim and I think that will impact a lot of lists being shared over the next few months.
I think Deathskulls is still a staple due to the SSAG Big Mek and general value of the kultur. I think Bad Moons is easier to scrap now, Freebooters and Grot Mobs offer valid swaps for dakka and tend to involve less CP intensive units. If you want to run boyz Evil Sunz is still the way to go. If you're not interested in boyz or don't want to triple your game time in Table Top Sim then I don't see much reason to commit to Evil Sunz.
In this interview with Steve Pampreen his list was Deathskulls, Freebooterz, and Blood Axes. I think it's a good example of how lists may differ from what we're used to prior to Saga and Covid.

Re: Freebooterz:
There is some merit to a pure Freebooterz army but if your list cannot trigger the +1 to hit, or your opponent can deny it then you're playing without a clan kultur. I think you'd have to rely on a lot of smasha guns to get it to consistently work. From experience its an army that feels good when it works but can feel really bad when it doesn't.

There is a fair bit of fun in the freebootaz trait. Requires a bit of planning and target priority. But it's true that it's easier to proc against some armies than others. Tau for instance is laughably easy, hey look 2 shield drones! Bamn 1+ to hit. But on others it can take a lot of effort such as an ironhands or a knight list. Maybe that's why I like it, it takes more effort but gives a flat reward. Can't wait to test it out with the new Kustom Jobs and stratagems.

 whembly wrote:
How competitive are the following:
-30 man boys (either set at this unit size, or mobbing up 10man & 20man) and Da Jumping turn one? (also Warpath'ing too?) Not sure I want to go full bore 40 man mobbed up unit, but I'm just looking to field one big boyz unit, then rest of the troops being gretchins. Is one big mob enough to give opponents fits? Or is this one of those tactics that if I'm going with large mobs of boyz, it's better to have multiples?

You definitely need multiple, no army has trouble wiping out a single mob. The most common use is bringing three mobs of boyz as Evil Suns to make deep strikes more reliable. Turn one you jump you first mob to keep your opponent occupied, aiming to tri-point something so they don't get wiped out. Turn two you jump another one and tellyport the third one in. If you're lucky you can use the endless green tide stratagem to pick up the first one you jumped and deep strike that one as well, so your opponent has to handle 90 boyz at once. Otherwise try to use the stratagem during your next turn, 15+ free boyz might tip the odds in your favor. Some people have had success with just two mobs, you basically skip the first turn jump and just throw two mobs at them in turn 2.

-What's better? Three CC Deff Dreads (each 2x klaw, 1x saw, scorcha with KJ Dirty Gubbinz) or 6x shoota Killa Kans (with KJ sparkly bits)? I plan on Tellyporta for turn 2 Carnifex distraction...

Probably the dreads, solely because shoota kans are terrible. Note that skorchas aren't great on dreads either, but I guess you're stuck with the models you have.
If you do tellyport them, don't toss them away as distraction carnifexes, but try to get value out of them. Holding them off till turn 3 and taking down a valuable target will do much more for your game than dropping them a turn earlier and killing some random infantry. Make sure to use the ramming speed stratagem for one of them and use the Evil Suns culture.

-I know warbikers isn't a thing in 8th ed, and I have a ton from my 5th ed days... but, wouldn't a maxed out warbiker squad function as simply a mobile shooting platform? Mainly targeting large cheap squads or small elite units?

I'm running a large biker squad fairly regularly. Their shooting isn't as impressive as it used to be, because AP has become much more important. With the help of the Kult of Speed specialist detachment and a bikerboss or wartrike, they can easily do 30"+ charges in turn one, functioning very similar to how I described boyz above, basically just bogging down the enemy in their deployment zone. Not highly competitive, but it works.

 Billagio wrote:
Im using these as a baseline, but havnt done much of the work yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36YQIP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Are these the right size?

@Jimdah and Tulun: Thanks for the feedback.

Multiple large boyz squads are needed to be effective, probably minimum of 2x units of 30 boyz. I can try that... it's just that I'm trying to avoid going full bore on greentide.

Skorcha = bad. Gotcha. I'll throw another saw/klaw or KMB instead.

I'm trying to theory hammer an ork gunline, but have enough forward pressure to keep my opponent busy while the gretchins goes after objectives and the gun line plinks away. Here's what I'm starting with:

weaver9 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Im using these as a baseline, but havnt done much of the work yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36YQIP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Are these the right size?

Quoted as 4” x 2” x 1.75”. 100 x 50 x 43 in New. Money.

weaver9 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Im using these as a baseline, but havnt done much of the work yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36YQIP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Are these the right size?

Not sure on the size of the actual Mek Gunz from GW but these seem a bit smaller. That being said with some extra gubbinz and orkification it can easily be the same size

 Quackzo wrote:

The trio of Evil Suns/ Bad Moons/ Deathskulls made a lot of sense prior to all this but I honestly think it's a bit up in the air at the moment with a combination of Saga coming out and games mostly being limited to Table Top Sim. It's worth noting the difficulties of playing a horde list in Table Top Sim and I think that will impact a lot of lists being shared over the next few months.
I think Deathskulls is still a staple due to the SSAG Big Mek and general value of the kultur. I think Bad Moons is easier to scrap now, Freebooters and Grot Mobs offer valid swaps for dakka and tend to involve less CP intensive units. If you want to run boyz Evil Sunz is still the way to go. If you're not interested in boyz or don't want to triple your game time in Table Top Sim then I don't see much reason to commit to Evil Sunz.
In this interview with Steve Pampreen his list was Deathskulls, Freebooterz, and Blood Axes. I think it's a good example of how lists may differ from what we're used to prior to Saga and Covid.

Re: Freebooterz:
There is some merit to a pure Freebooterz army but if your list cannot trigger the +1 to hit, or your opponent can deny it then you're playing without a clan kultur. I think you'd have to rely on a lot of smasha guns to get it to consistently work. From experience its an army that feels good when it works but can feel really bad when it doesn't.

I liked that interview.

Yeah, I seem to greatly prefer mass grots than loads of boys. It feels easier to play with them, and probably less consequential if they aren't perfectly placed (meanwhile, poorly screening / placing you 210+ point boy squad can lose the game).

It seems like he's largely employing what we suspected -- suicidal planes are probably going to crop up in high level Ork play. I'm not sure about the Gunwagon at top tables, but who knows.

It's been a while, but I'am looking at a reviving my deathskull army. I got a lot of loota's and really like the new ' klever spanner' stratagem.
Maybe this has been discussed previously but isn't this really good? I don't see a lot of army-lists with loota's and I am wondering why.

shogun wrote:

It's been a while, but I'am looking at a reviving my deathskull army. I got a lot of loota's and really like the new ' klever spanner' stratagem.
Maybe this has been discussed previously but isn't this really good? I don't see a lot of army-lists with loota's and I am wondering why.

Lootas are paradoxically better on bad moons rather than DS. Their big issue on my book is that they are exceptionally CP hungry. You need grot shield, klever spanner and shoot twice to justify their point cost. Otherwise, they are an expensive glass cannon.

Using wreckers (deff skulls stratagem) instead of shoot twice works well enough in semi-competitive environments. Klever spanner isn't a terrible stratagem (it vastly reduces the chance of getting just one shot, an increases the chance of getting three), but it just adds to the pile of CP you need to keep lootas operational.

The main reason why lootas have disappeared from competitive gaming is because they eat up too many CP and space marines, the current ringleader, has no trouble wiping them out in one turn, no matter how many gretchin you use as shields.

 Jidmah wrote:
Using wreckers (deff skulls stratagem) instead of shoot twice works well enough in semi-competitive environments. Klever spanner isn't a terrible stratagem (it vastly reduces the chance of getting just one shot, an increases the chance of getting three), but it just adds to the pile of CP you need to keep lootas operational.

The main reason why lootas have disappeared from competitive gaming is because they eat up too many CP and space marines, the current ringleader, has no trouble wiping them out in one turn, no matter how many gretchin you use as shields.

Also lootas are a pain to deploy, they need LOS (you can da jump them but it’s hard to Grot shields them after), the need the grots in front. 15 lootas and 30 grots is a huge footprint, and on a dense table (as all 8th Ed tables should be) it is
1 problematic for the rest of ork stuff (nearly all our units have huge footprints)
2 takes time and when you are on the clock it’s just horrible

You can place them in an open topped vehicule but then you have AT issues

@shogun I also love their lore though

And 30 gretchins, particularly if they are in 10 big blops, is trivial to bypass. 10 squads in particular are vulnerable being bypassed by fast units and melee units and with 30"+ charges not being even that weird these days.

Has anyone had any luck with plain ol' biker boys these days? They cost about the same as three shootaboys with the same firepower, but carry 1 more wound, 1 more toughness, and a 4+ save instead of the t-shirt, so, i'd think that there'd be some room for 'em… but they're not so hot in melee.

They're obviously not what they were a few editions ago, but, they seem usable on paper at least...

As I already described above, I regularly use them as first turn chargers with the Kult of Speed specialist detachment as part of my buggy list. You pay too many points and too many CP for the effect, but it does work decently.

Unless you are facing an enemy with lots of infantry with bad saves, their shooting isn't that good. Most of their value for me comes from being 4+/T5/2W in combat, which is hard to handle for anything but close combat experts. In addition, most weapons that excel at killing them are occupied with killing buggies.

My favorite list... took a lot of tweaking.


I think playing around w bloodaxes and thier new psychic power might be better then pyromaniacs for bombers. It gives my planes and warboss on bike +1 save early on when 18in away. A warboss with a 3+ 4++ save is even more durable especially when he is immune to overwatch and always hits first due to the psychic power (no range) and can fall back and charge again if needed.

I dig.

On principle, though, I'd drop 2 Smasha Guns for Snikrot, because that guy needs to see play.

I will say currently gunwagon cannot shoot twice with da boomer. May be FAQd.

Personally I like pyromaniacs over blood axes, but the list looks fun all the same!

weaver9 wrote:
I will say currently gunwagon cannot shoot twice with da boomer. May be FAQd.

Personally I like pyromaniacs over blood axes, but the list looks fun all the same!

It would be a complete kick in the balls if they screwed orks like that since they gave astra militarum and tau the exact same faq allowing them to use similar relic weapons as the weapon they replaced.

My issue with pyromaniacs is it doesn’t help anyone else. It does provide +1 to the bombs initial hit to make it better but it’s really the eadbutt strat that makes those planes great. Whereas bloodaxe helps everyone (except grots survive) but most importantly makes the warboss on bike a beast with his fall back and charge and immune to overwatch and always strike first. He actually might survive to do combat. It gives a reason for that third wierdboy too. But ya I’m constantly tinkering with it.

gungo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
I will say currently gunwagon cannot shoot twice with da boomer. May be FAQd.

Personally I like pyromaniacs over blood axes, but the list looks fun all the same!

It would be a complete kick in the balls if they screwed orks like that since they gave astra militarum and tau the exact same faq allowing them to use similar relic weapons as the weapon they replaced.

I think it’s unlikely.

Those kustom jobs seem to be encouraging gun wagons which are seeing literally zero game play.

The fact that those other faqs exist i'd be massively shocked, even given GW's usual mentality towards orks, if it doesnt work.
Especially since the gunwagon desperately needs a weapon worth using. Killkannon is good but not ~160pts good, the flat2 damage and low AP being the main issue. Never understood why a rokkit is stronger than a killkannon.

But getting 4D6 killkannon shots at a slightly longer reach for ~160pts....ok thats pretty good.

Plus it becomes insane under visions of smoke... 4d6 shots with full rerolls.

Has anyone tried the auto hitting zzap gun? Shooting twice with death skull reroll to wound it actually seems decent?

tulun wrote:
Plus it becomes insane under visions of smoke... 4d6 shots with full rerolls.

Has anyone tried the auto hitting zzap gun? Shooting twice with death skull reroll to wound it actually seems decent?

I feel like it costing 1 CP to use something that is relatively easily replicated by taking smasha gunz to be a big issue. The rate of fire also means that at best you only do 6 damage (or 6 mortal wounds if you're REALLY lucky), which is the equivalent of 2 rokkit launchas getting through, not exactly world breaking and IMO, a waste of the premium price of the Gunwagon chassis. The Boomer gets away with what it does since it not only increases the range but the rate of fire by double, not to mention it helping us with the niche of being a good weapon to gun down primaris marines with S8 and 2 damage.

Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

Is there any actual benefit from being a monster? Everything sounds negative lol.

Bigdoza wrote:
Is there any actual benefit from being a monster? Everything sounds negative lol.

Vindicare Assassins don't wound you on a 2+.

But outside niche stuff like that, no.

Drdotts wrote:
Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

A lot of FW Ork models are currently not in use because of how weirdly they're priced at the moment, and that the FW indices are going to be overhauled in the near future. As far as the current rules go, their main problem is that they kind of run into the same issues that trukks come into, namely that most of our units don't benefit from the use of transports. Even worse, it's not open-topped for whatever reason, so even a shooty unit like tankbustas don't get to shoot the turn they deep strike. To make matters worse, they have a plethora of heavy weapons and no innate rule to ignore the movement penalty to moving and shooting with heavy weapons, so you'd have to waste Moar Dakka on it to make it shoot normally. So overall, I would tell you to save your time and money until we get revamped FW rules.

Bigdoza wrote:
Is there any actual benefit from being a monster? Everything sounds negative lol.

None that I can think of outside of being exempt from any rules giving an attacking unit a buff while attacking INFANTRY or VEHICLES.

Edit:

JNA beat me to it.

 Grimskul wrote:

Drdotts wrote:
Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

A lot of FW Ork models are currently not in use because of how weirdly they're priced at the moment, and that the FW indices are going to be overhauled in the near future. As far as the current rules go, their main problem is that they kind of run into the same issues that trukks come into, namely that most of our units don't benefit from the use of transports. Even worse, it's not open-topped for whatever reason, so even a shooty unit like tankbustas don't get to shoot the turn they deep strike. To make matters worse, they have a plethora of heavy weapons and no innate rule to ignore the movement penalty to moving and shooting with heavy weapons, so you'd have to waste Moar Dakka on it to make it shoot normally. So overall, I would tell you to save your time and money until we get revamped FW rules.

They are open topped my dude.

I'd actually describe them as better Trukks. Free deepstrike, they can underslung a KMB, they have the fly keyword, and they don't degrade like Trukks do in terms of movement.

They are more fragile, and slightly more expensive (12 points) then the actual trukk you wanna take (Rocket Trukk baby).

But FW might legends them for all we know ( I believe the model has been out of print for 10 years...), so kitbash one with that in mind.

tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Drdotts wrote:
Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

A lot of FW Ork models are currently not in use because of how weirdly they're priced at the moment, and that the FW indices are going to be overhauled in the near future. As far as the current rules go, their main problem is that they kind of run into the same issues that trukks come into, namely that most of our units don't benefit from the use of transports. Even worse, it's not open-topped for whatever reason, so even a shooty unit like tankbustas don't get to shoot the turn they deep strike. To make matters worse, they have a plethora of heavy weapons and no innate rule to ignore the movement penalty to moving and shooting with heavy weapons, so you'd have to waste Moar Dakka on it to make it shoot normally. So overall, I would tell you to save your time and money until we get revamped FW rules.

They are open topped my dude.

I'd actually describe them as better Trukks. Free deepstrike, they can underslung a KMB, they have the fly keyword, and they don't degrade like Trukks do in terms of movement.

They are more fragile, and slightly more expensive (12 points) then the actual trukk you wanna take (Rocket Trukk baby).

But FW might legends them for all we know ( I believe the model has been out of print for 10 years...), so kitbash one with that in mind.

Ah, I must have missed the FAQ for them that added that in. In that case, I see it only as a deepstrike alternative for tankbustas and that's about it to be honest. Even then, not being able to use strats for the tankbustas inside when they land means it's still not as strong as tellyporting them in for shoot twice with bad moons. In both instances, the transport and the unit inside are basically guaranteed to die from return fire, so it's based on whether or not you think the transport cost is worth as much as 2CP.

Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

I'm regularly running one in my DS tourney list. Tankbustas in combination with 2 Meks with Kustoms slugga - the latter help me fill a brigade and offer the cheap ablative wounds (via oilers) needed when the chinork is blown up - which happens every game, since it's usually rather close to the opponent and is really easy to kill... But I really like the flexibility of a deepstriking transport with 3 separate units inside, 2 of which are characters. offers much potential for objective grabbing etc... I sometimes also run a second chinork with either boys or another unit of tankbustas (I then split the meks off and buy an additional bomb squig for each squad, so that I have to ablative wounds in each kopta...), but that's mostly for fun games, so many points in reserve usually don't work too well. I would strongly advice to swap the nose gun for the kustoms blasta - as DS, that's really nice. Oh, and don't ever expect the deff guns to do anything at all - approx. 4 shots hitting on 6 are usually disappointing. And I have never managed to drop both bombs and regard myself lucky if I get even one off...

 Grimskul wrote:


Ah, I must have missed the FAQ for them that added that in. In that case, I see it only as a deepstrike alternative for tankbustas and that's about it to be honest. Even then, not being able to use strats for the tankbustas inside when they land means it's still not as strong as tellyporting them in for shoot twice with bad moons. In both instances, the transport and the unit inside are basically guaranteed to die from return fire, so it's based on whether or not you think the transport cost is worth as much as 2CP.

Yeah, tankbustas are ideal. Flash Gits work well too. You could probably toss 10 Nobs in there if you really wanted to, but ya know, Orks are a shooting army.

I think this is overly dismissive. I've found them to be fine. The lack of stratagems on Tankbustas doesn't really matter, as tankbustas are really, really good as long as they are shooting at vehicles. Tossing them in a transport I've actually found they live a couple of turns, while deepstriking TB in is immediate death. If I shoot twice over two turns, it's like showing off for free.

The Chinork really is a more flexible trukk imo. Two less capacity is unfortunate, but otherwise, it's better in places where you're considering a Trukk.

I'm currently building a list that has an airwing with 1 Wazbomm and 2 burna bommers. Should I make them pyromaniacs for extra mortal wounds of keep them deff skulls for the smasha and mega cannons? Opinions?

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm currently building a list that has an airwing with 1 Wazbomm and 2 burna bommers. Should I make them pyromaniacs for extra mortal wounds of keep them deff skulls for the smasha and mega cannons? Opinions?

The more competitive option is probably giving it a proper main culture. It also means you can slot them in a battalion if you want without going for air wing.

Burna bombers are still good on MW in movement, and the real power in blowing yourself up is unchanged by culture.

tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


Ah, I must have missed the FAQ for them that added that in. In that case, I see it only as a deepstrike alternative for tankbustas and that's about it to be honest. Even then, not being able to use strats for the tankbustas inside when they land means it's still not as strong as tellyporting them in for shoot twice with bad moons. In both instances, the transport and the unit inside are basically guaranteed to die from return fire, so it's based on whether or not you think the transport cost is worth as much as 2CP.

Yeah, tankbustas are ideal. Flash Gits work well too. You could probably toss 10 Nobs in there if you really wanted to, but ya know, Orks are a shooting army.

I think this is overly dismissive. I've found them to be fine. The lack of stratagems on Tankbustas doesn't really matter, as tankbustas are really, really good as long as they are shooting at vehicles. Tossing them in a transport I've actually found they live a couple of turns, while deepstriking TB in is immediate death. If I shoot twice over two turns, it's like showing off for free.

The Chinork really is a more flexible trukk imo. Two less capacity is unfortunate, but otherwise, it's better in places where you're considering a Trukk.

I'll take your word for it, I don't see trukks as very useful outside of FG and Tankbusta platforms, so the chinork being better in that regard doesn't mean that much more to me competitively speaking. I'm all for people kitbashing proppa models for it rather than just going for the recast route though, so I'll see how they do in my next TTS game to see the difference myself.

Agree, I had them as part of my battalion but and was fiddling around with a big mek on warbike for my second KFF (with kleverest boss and killsaw), until I realized that a wazbom isn't that much more expensive that the mek, but does much way more damage at 36" range. So three planes are pretty much set in stone.

In case someone is interested:


Only 6 CP left, with two reserved for 'eadbuts and one or two for jumping the SJD to safety. Still want to give the list a try, enemy is probably going to be a rather competitive BA army, so it's a good chance to test stuff under pressure.
Also my first time trying to replace my warbikers with MANz in that list. I'm probably changing too much at once

 Grimskul wrote:


I'll take your word for it, I don't see trukks as very useful outside of FG and Tankbusta platforms, so the chinork being better in that regard doesn't mean that much more to me competitively speaking. I'm all for people kitbashing proppa models for it rather than just going for the recast route though, so I'll see how they do in my next TTS game to see the difference myself.

I think Flash Gits are competitive now in this meta Although how people use them still might be grot shields / tellyporta to save on points. I'm a big fan of TBs, but it really depends how often you see vehicles in your local meta.

If you take multiple units of Gits, having a transport option that can fly (you wanna usually do this in a vehicle heavy list, which means it's really easy to position it if it starts on the board since it can fly over your units, while the trukk might struggle... it also has 16" movement, and can advance 8" automatically) / DS for free doesn't seem bad. It's basically trading ~15 points at the cheapest for 2 CP (trukk vs Chinork), and both platforms will not withstand heavy fire anyway. But yeah, try away. I've had great experiences with them so far. Keep in mind they are currently NOT clan locked for transport, so you can have it be a Deathskull Chinork for the invul save / full re-rolls on the Kustom Mega Blasta while having whatever else you want inside.

The chinork is destined for legends as soon as the new forge world book is released. Which to be fair sounds like a bit off. The index is mostly obsolete so I’m unsure how people use it as almost every unit has An updated legends or codex dataslate.

Flash Gitz problem is your all in on that detachment you need to trigger the bonus and then you want other units to benefit. I’m glad they gave Gitz a new extended range strat. I wish kommandos and tankbustas got a new strat.

 Grimskul wrote:
Even worse, it's not open-topped for whatever reason, so even a shooty unit like tankbustas don't get to shoot the turn they deep strike.

Actually it has been errataed to be.

If you deseprately want to try burnas these could be useful as you can get them to range on T1 with burnas from inside and flamers on the kopta. More of casual game fun though. But at least you get to shoot with your burnas quaranteed(well unless you go 2nd and are facing indirect fire that can blow the kopter)

Drdotts wrote:
Hey does anyone run chinork warkoptas? And if so how do you represent them on the table top? I feel like they would be really strong transports but I never see them used

You can cobble together a. Chinork from a Trukk and two Deff Koptas. I use mine to transport Freebootaz Flash Gitz - if you have to take a deduction for moving Heavy Wpns, it might as well be them. Then Loot It for a 3+ save :-)

gungo wrote:

Flash Gitz problem is your all in on that detachment you need to trigger the bonus and then you want other units to benefit. I’m glad they gave Gitz a new extended range strat. I wish kommandos and tankbustas got a new strat.

a smasha gun battalion solves that problem. you can still bring a deathskull/dreadwaagh as a second bat.

badruk with mek KFF as HQ 3x10 gretchin to shield the gits as troops, 10Flashgitz and 6-10 smashas

thats about 600-900 points and a solid base for a list. you could expand with a dakkajet and/or burna, maybe even a gunwagon with the boomer and 4 bigshootaz. plenty opportunities to get the trait off : )


Edit:
what extended range strat?

Edit2:
that's my chinork (frontgun was magnetized and is missing^^)

RedNoak wrote:

Edit:
what extended range strat?

One of the Saga of the Beast stratagems: Speshul Shells - 2CP - Extend the range of a Flash Gitz unit by 12" for a shooting phase.

+12" sounds pretty useful... although damn pricey for 2CP

RedNoak wrote:
+12" sounds pretty useful... although damn pricey for 2CP

It would probably be borderline insane at 1 CP. Range is really the only drawback Gits have over Lootas.

Yeah, after their chapter approved points drop I've had quite a bit of success running 2 decent sized units of gitz with Baddrukk around. Though early and late game they tend to really feel the limits of their range. It's in the midgame where there is target saturation midfield do they pump out the damage.

its one of those weird situational stratagems. 1cp for +12" range would be insane, but 2cp feels way overpriced given how cp hungry orks are to function.
I think if it added something else to make it more worth the 2cp it'd be fine. As is i dunno if i'd use it, i usually only have 6cp left over to do things with nowadays

 Vineheart01 wrote:
1cp for +12" range would be insane, but 2cp feels way overpriced given how cp hungry orks are to function.

Agreed, maybe 1CP & Once per battle would be the best price point.

As it is, as you said it's a situational stratagem. Not to be used every game, but to be kept in mind for situation where it really makes a difference.

I’m liking my Mek guns in my grot detachment... reroll 1s and 6++ is useful. Add the da jump weirdboy to the list and he can send out obj camping grots that are a little bit harder to kill as well.

I was hoping grot detachment and the new strats would make kans good again but while better they are still not competitive.

gungo wrote:
I’m liking my Mek guns in my grot detachment... reroll 1s and 6++ is useful. Add the da jump weirdboy to the list and he can send out obj camping grots that are a little bit harder to kill as well.

I was hoping grot detachment and the new strats would make kans good again but while better they are still not competitive.

I think the problem is that Kanz just aren't a good shooting platform, so you kinda have to go all in on their CC aspect instead. If we could replace the klaw with ranged weapons like another rokkit launcha, then I think they would be able to utilize the reroll one's to hit more effectively and then sparkly bitz wouldn't be a complete waste on them.

One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

at that point i'd be swapping to koptas for the sheer mobility and still having some form of melee (it isnt...amazing but its way better than nothing).
Yeah, koptas are hitting on 5s, but the way they operate thats not too big an issue (deathskullz perk).

Also koptas dont fight for heavy slots, and kanz would not only be battling for the slot but also the detachment since they'd want grotmobz. Boomboyz would affect them still of course but i still wonder if that one is worth using at all.

They are only a few points different as it is (remember the kan klaw is free atm, if it could be swapped it would have to be priced)

I've been watching the AoW 40k streams recently and Marky Perry has been running Kans, Deffkoptas, and Nob Bikers in lists all as evil sunz speed freaks. It's interesting to see in action, he's effectively using the Speed Freeks detachment to get those obscene movements across the board and uses wartrikes to enable the advance and charge. Kans are a bit more passive in function but are basically a big meaty screen. He's been testing it against Nick Nanavati and Richard Siegler with some success, so there's definitely merit to these ideas.

It's a shame that the Deffkoptas aren't affected by any of the Kustom Jobs. Giving them Sparkly bitz or Dirty gubbinz would be pretty fun.

But yeah, if running them in larger units as an outrider or a distraction force I'm not sure if Deffskulls are that useful. Evil suns gives 4" of movement if you get to advance and charge. Freebootaz lets you model them as tiny flying pirate ships and try to support one another by killing stuff (or work with a flying wing to double down on the theme) Boomboyz with the rokkits does give a nice little bump in damage.

Actually, thinking back to the blue boyz, Mechanical seizures would be quite good for upping the koptas output in both ranged and melee if you ganged up on one poor bastard or centrepiece unit. Though evil suns does let you use visions to get a bunch of re-rolls.

Flyboyz could be interesting if you're spamming koptas and stormboyz, but there's still a fair bit of ignores cover about.

I do like the KMB and Rocket Kopta.

But I dunno. 3 Big Shootas Deff Koptas is basically a Mega Trakk (2 rockets ones is ~1 mega trakk). And if you want a combat heavy unit, you can give double their output for 1 CP.

I wager you'd be better served taking 1 Mega trakk instead over ~3 koptas. Combo it with Seizure too.

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I have tons of koptas left from 5th, but sadly spamming them is something that didn't work well for me.

Units of 5 still have the moral problem of being just ld7. While it's not trivial to trigger that from shooting(weapons that can do that tend to be wasted on koptas), getting charged by a DP, dread or a HQ with a relic weapon can easily cause multiple koptas do implode and then you lose your unit.
Having a warboss or a slightly larger mob of boyz/warbikers nearby is pretty much mandatory.
In addition, units of 5 really shine when they can use long, uncontrolled bursts to destroy FLY units which are not hard to hit. Outside of that, I usually use them as deep striking unit that doesn't cost any of my valuable CP.
Due to FLY they can enter buildings, assassinate characters and fly over screens to tie down valuable units. However, you don't really need 15 models doing that, and buggies (even the KBB) just provide much more value when you just stand and shoot from a safe distance.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its one of those weird situational stratagems. 1cp for +12" range would be insane, but 2cp feels way overpriced given how cp hungry orks are to function.
I think if it added something else to make it more worth the 2cp it'd be fine. As is i dunno if i'd use it, i usually only have 6cp left over to do things with nowadays

Sisters have similar 12" boost for multi melta retributors that also gives +1 damage. Though the range bonus isn't as essential as they can move 6" and shoot without -1.

Also +1 dam is "bit" different to 4 multi meltas than 10 flashgits.

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I like deffkoptas but I’m not exactly sure they will be in our next codex unless they get a new model. I don’t see the current model surviving the transition.

I find deffkoptas speed fine thier issue is expensive rokkits and poor shooting platforms. They also lost a lot of options like kmg and bombs. If we ever get a new model I think giving them bombs and having those bombs be affected by pyro subkulture would make them better.

Right now the best load out for deffkoptas are flyboys or bloodaxe w the new psyker. They become essentially 3+ save models that are ok in combat and either have -1 to hit in melee or can’t be hit by overwatch. Regardless koptas are mostly for objectives or filling out a brigade.

Now that people have had some time to try out the new SoTB rules, has there been a consensus on which kustom jobs are worth getting for the buggies? I know the the Souped Up Speshul, Nitro Squigs and Sizzly Rivets are more on the "no" column for competitive games, but how about Korkscrew or the Gyroscopic Whirlygig? I feel like the latter has character assassinating potential, as well as late game grabbing opportunities, and Korkscrew could give some much needed punch to finish off a weakened unit or vehicle. Gork's Roar seems like a good buff as well if you deign to take a Wartrike, since it gives him near guaranteed screen clearing capabilities. I'm currently making a Deffskull Brigade list and I'm figuring out whether or not I should take both the Korkscrew and Gyroscopic Kustom Jobs but that means I have a leftover spot in my FA slot that I think would be better filled if there was only one or the other.

gungo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I like deffkoptas but I’m not exactly sure they will be in our next codex unless they get a new model. I don’t see the current model surviving the transition.

I find deffkoptas speed fine thier issue is expensive rokkits and poor shooting platforms. They also lost a lot of options like kmg and bombs. If we ever get a new model I think giving them bombs and having those bombs be affected by pyro subkulture would make them better.

Right now the best load out for deffkoptas are flyboys or bloodaxe w the new psyker. They become essentially 3+ save models that are ok in combat and either have -1 to hit in melee or can’t be hit by overwatch. Regardless koptas are mostly for objectives or filling out a brigade.

I'm a big believer of the simple Twin Bigshoota on a squad of three koptas. 99 points, 36" range, can zip about and keep up being annoying gnats, and ableto dart into close combat if needed, tie someone up, then flip away and do it again as needed … just a handy little harassment unit. It isn't the Big Boom of the Rokkits, but they're *cheap*, with a cost-per-wound about on par with a boy but with a better toughness, better save, higher movement, and about the same firepower (6 Big Shoota shots vs 8 Shoota shots, but with +18" range and +1 Str) … not as much CC ability, but... Orks. You have that covered elsewhere.

Soembody will probably come along and math it into the dirt, to show how much better Rokkits are, but, the situational use, and the low cost, are more important to me than raw killpower.

Wakshaani wrote:

gungo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I like deffkoptas but I’m not exactly sure they will be in our next codex unless they get a new model. I don’t see the current model surviving the transition.

I find deffkoptas speed fine thier issue is expensive rokkits and poor shooting platforms. They also lost a lot of options like kmg and bombs. If we ever get a new model I think giving them bombs and having those bombs be affected by pyro subkulture would make them better.

Right now the best load out for deffkoptas are flyboys or bloodaxe w the new psyker. They become essentially 3+ save models that are ok in combat and either have -1 to hit in melee or can’t be hit by overwatch. Regardless koptas are mostly for objectives or filling out a brigade.

I'm a big believer of the simple Twin Bigshoota on a squad of three koptas. 99 points, 36" range, can zip about and keep up being annoying gnats, and ableto dart into close combat if needed, tie someone up, then flip away and do it again as needed … just a handy little harassment unit. It isn't the Big Boom of the Rokkits, but they're *cheap*, with a cost-per-wound about on par with a boy but with a better toughness, better save, higher movement, and about the same firepower (6 Big Shoota shots vs 8 Shoota shots, but with +18" range and +1 Str) … not as much CC ability, but... Orks. You have that covered elsewhere.

Soembody will probably come along and math it into the dirt, to show how much better Rokkits are, but, the situational use, and the low cost, are more important to me than raw killpower.

Honestly, unless your group removes Legends units, just do this with Kustom Mega Blastas, which makes them 29 points each, and is a much better gun.

The biggest issue tbh is that big shootas are just terrible. One off Rocket Koptas are probably better objective taggers than a unit of 3 big shoota ones.

Agree. For a unit that can't shoot, can't melee and can't hold objectives, it's all but irrelevant how many points you pay per wound.

If GW pointed big shootas properly (And by extension warbikers) so many units in the ork roster would receive some nice boosts in play. My only thoughts is they look at the max damage ork stuff can do rather than the average it will do.

oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

Seems to nail it on the head.

They hit half as much as HBs, so are half the cost, if AP-1, this makes sense.

AP0 really kills it. Or they need to be 2-3 points.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

Seems to nail it on the head.

They hit half as much as HBs, so are half the cost, if AP-1, this makes sense.

AP0 really kills it. Or they need to be 2-3 points.

One could argue that Dakka Dakka Dakka makes up for that... But that's really only the equivalent of RR1s to-hit, which Marines can get in spades.

Though having played against Imperial Fists a lot I can assure you GW overvalues Dakka Dakka. We still have to roll to hit for the additional shot where other factions have the extra hit automatically connect. Hell there are a few ways to have the 6s explode twice for some factions, with modifiers. It kinda stings we're so limited. Hopefully the next edition brings everyone onto a slightly more level playing field once more.

cody.d. wrote:
Though having played against Imperial Fists a lot I can assure you GW overvalues Dakka Dakka. We still have to roll to hit for the additional shot where other factions have the extra hit automatically connect. Hell there are a few ways to have the 6s explode twice for some factions, with modifiers. It kinda stings we're so limited. Hopefully the next edition brings everyone onto a slightly more level playing field once more.

I mean Orks are in a good spot regardless. We can play at the top tables.

I can work around mediocre big shootas. least we have an option to make them AP-1 now.

 Grimskul wrote:
Now that people have had some time to try out the new SoTB rules, has there been a consensus on which kustom jobs are worth getting for the buggies? I know the the Souped Up Speshul, Nitro Squigs and Sizzly Rivets are more on the "no" column for competitive games, but how about Korkscrew or the Gyroscopic Whirlygig? I feel like the latter has character assassinating potential, as well as late game grabbing opportunities, and Korkscrew could give some much needed punch to finish off a weakened unit or vehicle. Gork's Roar seems like a good buff as well if you deign to take a Wartrike, since it gives him near guaranteed screen clearing capabilities. I'm currently making a Deffskull Brigade list and I'm figuring out whether or not I should take both the Korkscrew and Gyroscopic Kustom Jobs but that means I have a leftover spot in my FA slot that I think would be better filled if there was only one or the other.

Imho the top 5 changes of SoTB are
Deffskulls psychic power
Da biggest boss
Eadbutt on bombers
Whirlygig on shockjump
Slug gubbin on gorkanaut

The next 5 are a bit harder
Grot detachment
Da boomer (if periscope works)
Cheap kff big Mek (likely some misprint in there)
Blood axe psychic power- (it’s great power on a bad clan)
Maybe boomboys subclan.

if you add in DDD then you have to add in rerolls, which makes it even worse.

gungo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Now that people have had some time to try out the new SoTB rules, has there been a consensus on which kustom jobs are worth getting for the buggies? I know the the Souped Up Speshul, Nitro Squigs and Sizzly Rivets are more on the "no" column for competitive games, but how about Korkscrew or the Gyroscopic Whirlygig? I feel like the latter has character assassinating potential, as well as late game grabbing opportunities, and Korkscrew could give some much needed punch to finish off a weakened unit or vehicle. Gork's Roar seems like a good buff as well if you deign to take a Wartrike, since it gives him near guaranteed screen clearing capabilities. I'm currently making a Deffskull Brigade list and I'm figuring out whether or not I should take both the Korkscrew and Gyroscopic Kustom Jobs but that means I have a leftover spot in my FA slot that I think would be better filled if there was only one or the other.

Imho the top 5 changes of SoTB are
Deffskulls psychic power
Da biggest boss
Eadbutt on bombers
Whirlygig on shockjump
Slug gubbin on gorkanaut

The next 5 are a bit harder
Grot detachment
Da boomer (if periscope works)
Cheap kff big Mek (likely some misprint in there)
Blood axe psychic power- (it’s great power on a bad clan)
Maybe boomboys subclan.

Thanks! Good to note down for my list. Personally, I've found that grot subkultur detachment hasn't made that big of an impact for me in most of my games. The reroll ones is a nice but often not a key part of any game since they usually don't live long enough to reroll that many times and smasha gunz don't have a consistent rate of fire to utilize it fully. I feel like Da Boomer combined with Boomboyz is ideal, that or Evil Sunz with Visions in the Smoke for full rerolls. Fingers crossed though that the KFF Big Mek keeps his invuln. in CC, even if its Klan racist. Given how killy everything has gotten, that boost makes going against guys like Genestealers a lot easier for our boyz.

I don’t think grot detachment is a massive gain but considering Mek gun spam was already competitive it only makes them better plus the 6++ gives those Mek guns a bit more resilience.
I guess my point is smasha guns are already one of our best choices.

And of course this is only my opinion some might think the new freebooter strat is better. I just think it’s to expensive at 2cp to make a massive impact. I also think shiny gubbins on Morkanaut is nice but +1 bs isn’t massively changing the Morkanaut.

I agree there is probably some really nice list for boomboys utilizing da boomer, and meka dread, tankbustas but honestly rokkit profiles are already decent what orks needed was rerolling to hit for better accuracy. Which is why in most cases I think deffskulls are still a bit better on small units. There are a couple subkultures that almost sound like they could be good like stormboy spam flyboys... yes please 5+ save fast boys with -1 to hit in combat..or hunta kommandos... yes please 4+ 5++ +1 wound/+1 ap deepstriking boys but in practice i don’t think either of those subkultures elevates those units as competitive. Subkultures would have been great if they were an addon to a clan tactic even if it cost 1cp like vigilus defiant.

gungo wrote:
I don’t think grot detachment is a massive gain but considering Mek gun spam was already competitive it only makes them better plus the 6++ gives those Mek guns a bit more resilience.
I guess my point is smasha guns are already one of our best choices.

And of course this is only my opinion some might think the new freebooter strat is better. I just think it’s to expensive at 2cp to make a massive impact. I also think shiny gubbins on Morkanaut is nice but +1 bs isn’t massively changing the Morkanaut.

I agree there is probably some really nice list for boomboys utilizing da boomer, and meka dread, tankbustas but honestly rokkit profiles are already decent what orks needed was rerolling to hit for better accuracy. Which is why in most cases I think deffskulls are still a bit better on small units. There are a couple subkultures that almost sound like they could be good like stormboy spam flyboys... yes please 5+ save fast boys with -1 to hit in combat..or hunta kommandos... yes please 4+ 5++ +1 wound/+1 ap deepstriking boys but in practice i don’t think either of those subkultures elevates those units as competitive. Subkultures would have been great if they were an addon to a clan tactic even if it cost 1cp like vigilus defiant.

Just jumping in with my thoughts.

Flash Gitz are one of my favourite units so there may be some bias incoming:
I've been using Flash Gitz for better or worst since the start of 8th, prior to CA19 and Saga of the Beast they've always been a bit short of competitive. I agree with you that the Flash Gitz strat is a bit expensive but I think it's the final push they need to see usage. I think I've probably stated this already in this thread but you're not expecting to spend 2CP a turn on them, you're looking at most likely 2CP in the first turn if you go first and maybe if you go second. If they're in your list you're probably ditching lootas or tankbustas to fit them in, each which would at least be consuming 2CP a turn.
I also think that once you can work with the limited range of Flash Gitz, either through da jump, trukks, or new stratagem, they can offer a lot of value and flexibility that lootas or tankbustas don't have.


RE: Subkulturs, the only ones I've actively considered are Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads and that's because they give a huge boon to Mek Gunz and Kans which don't get access to the other kulturs. The reality is we have access to some really good clan kulturs in the Codex that had access to some good stratagems. Now the clans have access to good psychic spells. So whenever you want to run a non-gretchin unit in a Subkultur you have to weigh it against all that. I think stacking Kulturs and Subkulturs would lead to some OP stuff. Evil sunz + tin 'eads comes to mind. If there was a way to pick a clan and replace the kultur with a subkultur then I would be happy with that.

I’ve been trying to make kans work.... even with grot detachment. No matter what I do their is just points better spent elsewhere. Kans tend to be a mix unit not great at shooting and not great at melee. It’s like they are competing now with mega jobs who are much better at melee...

Which leads me to tin Eads and evil suns... if they were able to combine (for an additional cp).
Evil suns and mega nobs are already played a lot and it’s a nice unit but isn’t competitive yet.... plus 1 to hit using tin eads isn’t drastically improving mega nobs. (3+ to 2+ ws) At least not much more then people were already trying w banner nob.
Mega nobs I agree would be very competitive with that setup but hardly OP compared to other terminator type units. They are still slow unless you rely on battlewagons or teleports. 2+ saves are getting hurt this meta with so many high volume AP -1 or 2 this editions. Im not saying mega nobs are bad I think they are good right now and they definitely would be competitive I just don’t see the above combo being better then what other armies can produce or deal with.

Regarding freebooters they are competitive already I agree. And better then tabkbustas or lootas if you go that route. It just takes an all in approach where you pull your Mek guns instead of using grots subkulture to trigger the bonus for your freebooters. And the 2cp while expensive should be usable at least once most games...still don’t think it will make a massive difference. We can’t use strats on units embarked in a battle wagon or ignore movement penalties. So the new strat basically lets you not move and not suffer to hit penalties like most freebooters were doing turn 1 or 2. I’m not really seeing that as a major bonus. I kinda wanted to move my flashgitz closer anyway. I suppose I can keep them by my Mek guns turn 1. Use 2cp wait till a Mek gun dies and then use loot it for another cp. and start moving my freebooters turn 2. Which would make them more survivable. I’m just spit balling here. I do think free boosters are good. I just don’t think it’s because of speshul shells for 2cp.

 Quackzo wrote:
I've been watching the AoW 40k streams recently and Marky Perry has been running Kans, Deffkoptas, and Nob Bikers in lists all as evil sunz speed freaks. It's interesting to see in action, he's effectively using the Speed Freeks detachment to get those obscene movements across the board and uses wartrikes to enable the advance and charge. Kans are a bit more passive in function but are basically a big meaty screen. He's been testing it against Nick Nanavati and Richard Siegler with some success, so there's definitely merit to these ideas.

Yeah I see what he did in that game.

He ended up paying around what you'd pay for 12 regular bikes w/ a Kill saw, but instead had 6 Big Choppa Nob Bikers and 2 normal ones (I dunno why he wouldn't just drop a Kan to upgrade them, his Kans did not pull their weight except as screens). Definitely will hit a good deal harder.

On paper I can see the appeal, as Big Choppa nobs just absolutely crush a lot of gak they can charge, especially if you buff them with Warpath. I dunno why you wouldn't just Tellyporta regular Evil Suns nobs instead though, as you literally save 50% of the points. With the right army setup, you can probably drop them turn 3 so screens are cleared, and exchanging 2 CP for upwards of (in this case) 148 points is really worth it.

I do think Kult of Speed really needs to see more play. Being able to move ~30" then charge after is just so good.

I've been toying with the idea of a full squad of nob warbikes with big choppas. Buffed with "Full speed ladz" (the +1S strat) and warpath they might actually be pretty decent. Getting a bunch of attacks with S8 AP-1 and D2 seems like a overall pretty good profile, coupled with all the usual upsides bikes have.

I still think they'd be 5 or 8 points too expensive per model but there might be some play there..

PiñaColada wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of a full squad of nob warbikes with big choppas. Buffed with "Full speed ladz" (the +1S strat) and warpath they might actually be pretty decent. Getting a bunch of attacks with S8 AP-1 and D2 seems like a overall pretty good profile, coupled with all the usual upsides bikes have.

I still think they'd be 5 or 8 points too expensive per model but there might be some play there..

I think you'd have to bank on there being good enough terrain in your deployment zone to block LoS on them T1 to make sure they don't get alpha struck, because even with a KFF bubble protection, they won't be hard to shoot off the board if you don't manage to get first turn.

Honestly, you can set them up to have an 80% chance of a charge 45" if you're willing to pay 1 more CP.

(Evil suns + new Kustom Job + Kult of Speed = 36" move, 80% chance to roll an 8). This drops to like 40" if you go non ES, which is still really, really good.

It's a chunk of CP ((1) Kult of Speed, (2) Advance your full move again, (1) Kustom Job), but I think if you can't have at least 1 LOS blocking piece of terrain somewhere in your board edge, you should ask for more terrain on the table.

The biggest issue I see is still the fact that things like TFCs can shut them down for basically free. But I wonder if dropping ~290-300 points for Nob Bikers vs ~290 points of Warbikers isn't a terrible trade off, given that Warbikers seem to do okay. They actually have similar wound counts, it probably just depends how much 3 Damage weapon they are packing vs 2 Damage.

Yeah, there are obvious drawbacks with putting that many points into a unit that's not super durable and vulnerable to TFCs as you both noted.

But you do get that fast unit that, unlike normal warbikers, actually hits really hard (when buffed). 36 attacks at S8 AP-1 D2 (plus another 9 S6 AP0 D1) attacks is realistically scary for just about anything in the game. The difference in S7 or S8 is so big (both in regards to T4 and T7/8) that the strat alone is dang near a gamechanger in regards to unit viability IMO.

I already play ES so the speed you get is insane and I've certainly toyed with adding squig tyres as well (but that might be overspending). Also, will the KFF work in CC post-errata? Then a wazbom could possibly protect them in CC if you're facing a real threat..

In normal times I'd try it all out and report back but who knows when games are back to being a normal occurance?

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, there are obvious drawbacks with putting that many points into a unit that's not super durable and vulnerable to TFCs as you both noted.

But you do get that fast unit that, unlike normal warbikers, actually hits really hard (when buffed). 36 attacks at S8 AP-1 D2 (plus another 9 S6 AP0 D1) attacks is realistically scary for just about anything in the game. The difference in S7 or S8 is so big (both in regards to T4 and T7/8) that the strat alone is dang near a gamechanger in regards to unit viability IMO.

I already play ES so the speed you get is insane and I've certainly toyed with adding squig tyres as well (but that might be overspending). Also, will the KFF work in CC post-errata? Then a wazbom could possibly protect them in CC if you're facing a real threat..

In normal times I'd try it all out and report back but who knows when games are back to being a normal occurance?

Well, a unit of 8 Nob Bikers with all Big Choppa, choppa is 304 points. Up to 24 Str 7 (8 with the 1 CP strat) Big Choppa attacks, and 8 str 5 (6) choppa attacks. Do warpath if you can somehow keep 1 within 18 of your Weirdboy, and this becomes 32 attacks. 32 Big choppa attacks I believe wipes out an intercessor squad, and you can easily wrap your nob bikers again into a new unit with the 2d6" consolidation strat. In addition, it'll be easier to use the 48 Dakkajet shots because you might be a very short charge away from your enemy, including allowing them to punch a hole through screens.

But the flip side to this is couldn't I just take 2 Nob squads instead and Tellyporta them? You can get 16 Nobs instead. Tellyporta for 4 CP (about the same as the Kult of speed stuff), and you now have 2 units to deploy and make the charge, as long as you can clear screens out.

Advantage of Nobs: More stuff, way more attacks, fills elite slots out for stuff like a brigade, can ignore TFCs.
Advantage of Nob Bikers: Gets around anti deep strike tech, can easily wrap with the 2d6" consolidation strat, able to get to Str 8 with stratagem.

I've had some success with warbikers already, I may give the Nob Bikers a shot as a count as with my friends. I was dismissive of them initially, but maybe if you lean into them a bit it's actually not too bad.

Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

On second glance, I’m not even sure TFCs fully gimp bikers anymore if you do evil suns and the new kustom job.

You’d go down to an 18” move ( move twice ), plus an 80% to get a 5” charge, for a threat range of 23”. Not as great obviously, but that’s still not necessarily stopping them.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

Not since their last reduction, but before. My issue with them was never the point cost, but that they simply don't hit hard enough to warrant spending extra points over regular warbikers. Almost every time I played them, their shooting and ability to move fast and tag stuff was more important than their melee output - in one game they bounced off a Sororitas Repressor and then later off a rhino, that's not what I expect from a 300+ points melee unit. They really could have used a stragem like "hit 'em harder" that MANz got.
With no actual advantage over warbikers, the risk of quickly losing them to weapons with flat 3 damage or more is not worth it. The DA helblasters I face regular just plowed through them, as do dreads, daemons with words, helverine/predator autocannons and pretty much every character with a relic weapon.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

Not since their last reduction, but before. My issue with them was never the point cost, but that they simply don't hit hard enough to warrant spending extra points over regular warbikers. Almost every time I played them, their shooting and ability to move fast and tag stuff was more important than their melee output - in one game they bounced off a Sororitas Repressor and then later off a rhino, that's not what I expect from a 300+ points melee unit. They really could have used a stragem like "hit 'em harder" that MANz got.
With no actual advantage over warbikers, the risk of quickly losing them to weapons with flat 3 damage or more is not worth it. The DA helblasters I face regular just plowed through them, as do dreads, daemons with words, helverine/predator autocannons and pretty much every character with a relic weapon.

Yeah fair. 1-2 damage weapons would edge for the Nob Bikers, as they have roughly the same number of wounds (25 vs 24 for the 12 and 8 mob), but yeah, they'd be crushed even harder vs flat 3.

Shame snakebites are so terrible, a FNP on this unit might go a long way.

The prevalence of D3 weapons in your local meta really makes or breaks the argument for nob warbiker durability. My meta has very few of those weapons, but they might see an upswing with armoured IG getting some love in PA (hammer of sundrance and full payload etc).

I think normal bikes or normal nobz are probably both better options than the big boys on bikes but I'm fairly certain we've all tried that to varying degrees of success already. Nob bikers hit hard enough that I'm willing to experiment a few games with the unit, even if I ultimately don't believe I can really make them work on anything better than a casual level. 9 of them with big choppas is 342 points ATM, at around 275 we would really be talking I think.

just a quick question... dont wanna open a new thread

if competitive streak if obtained mid shooting does the unit trigerring it, get the +1 right away?

example: dread has a megablasta and a flamer. Dread shoots flamer at unit A and blasta at unit B, A gets destoyed by the flamer. does the blasta now hit on 4's?

Correct, attacks are solved one after the other. Keep in mind that you need to announce all your weapons before shooting any of them.

No it doesn’t get competitive streak.

If unit A kills an enemy unit, every other friendly FB unit within 24” gets the bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m just building a Wartrike ( finally ).

Is the relic worth it on them if I’m doing cult of speed? (5++, T7). I’m wondering if I could get away with just making it a death skull for a 6++. I wish we could take a 3rd relic for 1 CP instead of two... I dunno if I’d leave my warboss at home.

If it gets Brutal but cunning it also on paper doesn’t look too bad vs Da Killa Klaw.

gungo wrote:
Cost is an issue but trukks don’t have a clear purpose right now.

I like using truckgrots.
They've won me games.

tulun wrote:
Is the relic worth it on them if I’m doing cult of speed? (5++, T7). I’m wondering if I could get away with just making it a death skull for a 6++. I wish we could take a 3rd relic for 1 CP instead of two... I dunno if I’d leave my warboss at home.

If it gets Brutal but cunning it also on paper doesn’t look too bad vs Da Killa Klaw.

In my experience, if it gets caught in combat or shot at, it's dead either way. I've also stopped giving it warlord traits, as it just incentives people to go after it for an easy VP. In my games, it worked best as deff skulls because you can have it zipping around providing his aura to those who need it and have a fairly reliable melta with random additional wounds from the boomsticks. The assault 2 killa jet profile basically turns him into dual KMB dread with slightly more punch and speed, but less range. I haven't had a chance to play SotB yet, but tomorrow I will be fielding him with the kustom job, for the extra melta range and as charge deterrent.

I've come to the conclusion that the wartrike cannot fill the role of a biker boss and the gap has widened with the big boss stratagem.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
Is the relic worth it on them if I’m doing cult of speed? (5++, T7). I’m wondering if I could get away with just making it a death skull for a 6++. I wish we could take a 3rd relic for 1 CP instead of two... I dunno if I’d leave my warboss at home.

If it gets Brutal but cunning it also on paper doesn’t look too bad vs Da Killa Klaw.

In my experience, if it gets caught in combat or shot at, it's dead either way. I've also stopped giving it warlord traits, as it just incentives people to go after it for an easy VP. In my games, it worked best as deff skulls because you can have it zipping around providing his aura to those who need it and have a fairly reliable melta with random additional wounds from the boomsticks. The assault 2 killa jet profile basically turns him into dual KMB dread with slightly more punch and speed, but less range. I haven't had a chance to play SotB yet, but tomorrow I will be fielding him with the kustom job, for the extra melta range and as charge deterrent.

I've come to the conclusion that the wartrike cannot fill the role of a biker boss and the gap has widened with the big boss stratagem.

Yeah, until he gets a much needed points drop, he's trivially easy to target and kill because of his big base size in comparison to the Biker Boss, AND his damage output is pretty lacklustre. He's basically just there for mech/vehicle lists to get advance and charge, which are already on the lower end of competitive, so until he's costed more appropriately, he's a tough cookie to work out in a list.

On a side note, after playing around with Kustom Jobs a bit more, I've noticed that Forktress (understandably) is the go to option for when people take battlewagons. Is the the Red Rolla worth considering at all?

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:
Cost is an issue but trukks don’t have a clear purpose right now.

I like using truckgrots.
They've won me games.

They’re the reason I have a Grot tricked out with. Striking Scorpions helmet :-)

Nick Nanavati is streaming live a list with makhari and Ghaz!!

https://www.twitch.tv/aow40k

 Emicrania wrote:
Nick Nanavati is streaming live a list with makhari and Ghaz!!

https://www.twitch.tv/aow40k

What’s the list?

List:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtofWar40k/comments/gc7q72/twitch_match_sunday_1_pm_est_nick_nanavati_orks/



Archive stream link of battle report:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/610193889

 TedNugent wrote:
List:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtofWar40k/comments/gc7q72/twitch_match_sunday_1_pm_est_nick_nanavati_orks/

Spoiler:

Nick's Ork list:

Goff battalion

Ghaz 285

Makari 65

28 sluggas 196

28 sluggas 196

28 sluggas 196


Goff battalion

Warboss- klaw 80, warlord: brutal but kunnin; relic: da killa klaw

Weirdboy 62 Fist of Gork

Weirdboy 62 Da Jump

10 sluggas 70

10 sluggas 70

10 sluggas 70


Free bootaz

Badruck 84

Weirdboy 62 Da Jump and warpath (-1 cp warp ead and -1 cp supa cybork body)

28 grots 84

28 grots 84

28 grots 84

10 flash gitz- 2 ammo runts 248


Mark's Chaos monster mash list:

Deamon batt

Bloodthirsters of Big boi axe wl 6+++ relic 4++ 230

Belakor 200 hex, gaze

3x10brimstone horrors 30


Flawless host supreme

Forge specialist detachment

Disco lord flamer field commander 170

2xdisco lords flamer 170


Heretic supreme

Airman on his disco of fly

Warptime, pres, strength 166

KHARN!!!!!! 120

ABADDON!!!!!!!!!!! 210

MORTY THE BIGGEST BOI 470

Archive stream link of battle report:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/610193889

Doing the Gork's work

So he's running a joke list against a joke list *golf clap*

I think many of the top players are saying that Orks are the real dark horse out there, still I don't know if any Ork horde is a real thing ATM.

In other news, I tried Pampreen list Vs BA 2 times and is a smashing list. Extremely powerful and great in the "current" meta.

Still I want to find a list where Ghaz is a thing. I'm hopeful that they will give him Waaagh to himself , which will boost him a bit. Although I think, imho, without slashing attacks, is not that scary ATM

 Emicrania wrote:
I think many of the top players are saying that Orks are the real dark horse out there, still I don't know if any Ork horde is a real thing ATM.

In other news, I tried Pampreen list Vs BA 2 times and is a smashing list. Extremely powerful and great in the "current" meta.

Still I want to find a list where Ghaz is a thing. I'm hopeful that they will give him Waaagh to himself , which will boost him a bit. Although I think, imho, without slashing attacks, is not that scary ATM

I mean, our armies do tend to be a little atypical by nature. If you build a list of any of the other factions there's a decent enough chance an ork player can come along and blindside you with some of the various types of lists we can slap together.

Which is why we perform so poorly at tournaments. The falcon described the situation well last episode of chapter tactics. There are a lot of Ork players that have no idea what to do on the tabletop, beside screaming "Waaagh" and "dakka" and roll casually some dices.

I strongly believe that Orks is one of the best armies out there, that really requires an understanding of the game deeper than most folk want or can. This is NOT a direct attack to nobody specific . Is just that I see many Ork players in my area, or on Reddit, that complain about Orks, but doesn't wanna spend 2 seconds to understand the math and science behind optimal play. I am talking to you, that sit beside the table and roll 2d6 for the shots of a SSAG and than to wound and than damage and claim that everything die. There is a strong difference between an episode and a fact. You need consistency.

Which is why that Goff list, or any list, that is not played and tested, at least , 15/20 times, can't be taken seriously. If you are not Richard Siegler or the like. But In the end, they also claim to choose lists that they have enough reps with. Experience is the best teacher.

We can achieve great things with this army, we just need to be consistent and reliable.

So, yesterday I finally had a game where I could my buggy list super-charged with kustom jobs, using the list with the airwing I posted a couple of days ago. Everything is deff skulls.
I was facing a fairly competitive AM list, with tank commanders, pask, a manticore and a basilisk, a valkyrie, scout sentinels and hordes of guardsmen with mortars and or plasma.
The mission was Eternal War:Crusade, I won the roll-off and took first turn:
Screenshot of the deployment (with 5 MANz in tellyporta off-screen:

I sunk 10 CP pre-game:
- Da Boomer on gunwagon (assuming periscope works)
- Sparkly bits on morkanaut
- Gyroscopic Whrilygig for SJD
- Gork's roar for wartrike
- Da Biggest Boss
- Warphead (Da Jump/Seizure)
- Dread Mob
- Extra Relic (SSAG)
- Tellyporta

Turn One(Orks)
I basically moved everything forward as far as I could, just the warboss stayed behind the gunwagon so it couldn't be shot.
One bommer bombs the plasma squad, the other one bombs a mortar squad. I drop one burna bommer onto the 3 mortar squads, the tank commander, the plasma squad and two characters, killing droves of infantry and a comissar.
Due to the scout sentinel, the SJD couldn't line up a shot to the relic tank commander, so I settled for blowing up another one and jumped into the naut's KFF.
Wartrakk is not in range for anything but a scout sentinel, so I decide to hide him behind the naut.
The warphead rolls one for advance and therefore doesn't have enemies in 18". So he jumps some gretchin onto objective 3 to capture it.
As usual, the scrapjet was too slow to threaten something valuable T1, so I'm considering replacing it with another SJD, just for extra the speed and AP. It failed to kill the scout sentinel protecting the relic tank commander.
Naut, wazbomm and SJD team up to destroy a tank commander. Da Boomer, a KBB and SSAG destroy another. The random big shootas and the last KBB spread the pain across the mortar teams to cause as many moral casualties as possible.
Moral wipes the plasma squad and two mortar squads.

Turn One(AM)
Not much moving going on, but the valk jumps next to the SSAG and drops an infantry squad.
Relic tank commander just blows away the naut. To be fair, I didn't make a single save, but still...
Mortars and the dropped squad try to get two squads of gretchin out of the way so the valk can kill the big mek, but fail. He piles on the manticore to kill the last four gretchin, but two buggers refuse to die, preventing the valk from shooting the SSAG.
Instead, it opens up on the KBB along with some plasma squads, and leave it at 3.
Basilisk shoots at gunwagon, and takes off 6 wounds. Assorted infantry, sentinels and the last 'russ wipe out most of gretchin sitting on objective 3.
The valk squad charges the SSAG big mek, he kills two in overwatch and them kills another three with his fist.
Moral wipes out the gretchin around the big mek and on objective 3. My opponent uses insane heroism to keep the squad in combat with the big mek as they have lost 7 members this turn.

Turn Two(Orks)
At the beginning of the turn, I score objectives 4 and 5 for a total of 3 VP.
Burna bommer bombs a plasma squad and then drops onto the infantry around the basilisk, killing tons of them and damaging the artillery. Everything else moves forward, MANz drop near the russ and the manticore. More gretchin take place of their fallen comrades on objective number 3.
Weirdboyz jumps himself and then fails to cast seizures on the relic tank commander.
Wazbom, SJD and scrapjet try to kill the relic tank commander but only one shot goes through, and three out of five damage get ignored by its 6+++. I'm starting to hate this guy.
KBB clear a path for the warboss to the basilisk, Da Boomer does 4 damage to the valkyrie for the lack of better targets, wartrike kills some infantry and deals 10 damage to the manticore with its melta, leaving it at 1
As before, the random guns on all the vehicles kill surprising amounts of infantry.
Warboss charges manticore and destroys it.
Each KBB charges a plasma squad to prevent them from shooting, spiked rams do nothing, as usual.
MANz charge LRBT and take it down to two wounds, one MAN dies in overwatch. Deffkilla wartrike tried to charge the same tank, rolls high enough, but doesn't fit because I placed the MANz like an idiot
Gunwagon charges the squad fighting the SSAG to be within 3" of the objective.
Scrapjet drills through a scout sentinel. I actually wished I had the corkscrew in this moment, as it would have allowed me to tag the tank commander behind it.
The big mek deals 3 damage to the guard squad and is free to shoot again, with moral killing the final model.

Turn Two(AM)
He scores objective #1 for a total of 2VP
LRBT falls back from the MANz, valk goes into hover and tries to snipe the warboss, manticore shots the scrapjet and does just 2 damage.
We called it quits afterwards, the game being all but decided.

He has the relic tank commander, a LRBT at 4, a manticore at 2 (those three surrounded by SJD, scrapjet, 4 MANz, weirdboy and wartrike), a valkyrie at 8 and a scout sentinel left. Two of his remaining five squads are locked in combat, two more are less than five models.
Meanwhile I have only lost my naut, the bommers and three units of gretchin. I have units sitting on four objectives and might get #6 as well. Even if he manages to clear one objectives, he will be hard pressed to score more than one, alowing me to pull ahead 7:3 and most likely resulting in a tabling next turn.

Lessons learned:
- Even with the periscope, da boomer is not as impressive as it sounds. It's quite resilient, but you basically get a buggy's worth of shooting for 155. I might give it another try though, as it might actually be much better at killing targets that aren't 3+/T8
- The gyroscope thingy wasn't really needed.. In T1 my opponent screened it out through the scout sentinels and in T2 advancing would just have reduced accuracy.
- Bigger Boss is awesome - not just for the 4++, but the extra attack makes him so much more reliable at tankbusting. Missing one out of four attacks means a tank stays alive, missing one of five? Tank still dead.
- Sparkly bits on the naut resulted in at least one more d6 damage rolled. Since it also affects the two rokkits, the KMB and the big shootas, damage output goes up by quite a bit. Sadly, I only got to shoot it once.
- Maniacal Seizure's WC7 and 18" range make it quite hard to cast in a vehicle-based list
- Flying 'eadbut is insane. Despite my opponent trying to avoid the blasts, they did massive amounts of damage. I don't think it's possible to screen against deep striking MANz, regular bombing runs, high speed missiles like biker boss or wartrike and the 'eadbut at the same time.
- MANz instead of warbikers. This actually worked surprisingly well, though I didn't really need warbikers in this game, as AM has on interest in coming closer.
- Supa-shootas on wazboms are wasted points.

This is the only kind of Ork list I'd play on TTS.well written Jid. I'd give the SJD another spin, as per the gunwagon.

For the rest I agree on all statements.

To be fair, there wasn't much to write.

The more experience I gain with this kind of army, the more my opponents struggle with stopping it. Gotta love the high skill ceiling for orks.

As for the SJD, the yellow buggy did very well, as usual. It just felt like it didn't need the deep strike job, since it already has 14" movement and the -1 to hit from advancing completely knocks out the rokkit launcha, reducing the expect amount of hits to one or less, rather than one or two.

Something I might also try is putting squig tires on the scrap jet to get that slow poke to where it's needed. It never seems to get where I want it unless I run it as evil suns.

I also paid close attention to what the things I *didn't* take would have done:
The KBB's sizzly rivets job would have resultet in a whooping 1 MW on a tank I killed anyways and one additional dead guardsman.
The pyromaniacs sub-culture on the airwing would have caused three additional mortal wounds, but two of those died through moral anyways. On the flip side, deff skulls re-rolls caused one casualty from a burna bommer's supa-shoota and rolled a two for the wazbomm's damage into a five.
So neither would have been a good investment.

A final take-away from that game would also be that I spend too many points on pre-game stratagems, I should look into cutting them down by at least 3CP(so 7 to use during the game), maybe more. Probably could gain 2CP by jumping the MANz instead of tellyporting them. The other one would come from either dropping da boomer or the gyro.

SJD's jump-shoot-jump tactic is more for punishing things that are normally difficult to tag like backfield artillery or an exposed character.
My friends are paranoid of that thing now and constantly 360 surround their characters now, which result in them moving a bit slower and having some models out of range sometimes, because the instant theres a character thats not completely covered my SJD snipes it lol.
Definitely isnt an every-turn necessity. 24" range and 14" movement is generally enough to smack a dread or something, and its such a low profile its easy to have it obscured by cover if you dont wanna strat-jump it away afterwords.

i've been toying with grot tanks and grot megatanks. Unfortunately my only 2 games so far has been....disturbingly bad in the RNG department for my opponent (Tau player literally hit ~10% of his shots....i felt bad for him lol).
On paper....sooo...many...KMBs.....rofl