It's odd how indecisive gamesworkshop is regarding crossing units from game system to game system. Most of the demon range can be used in either side but they're seemingly unwilling to transfer across ones that would be incredibly easy such as squigs or even ironjaw brutes and gore gruntas which would be fantastic snakebite units.
Making the squigbuggy a support food truck would be funny and give it purpose.
Give it various auras you can select from and the Squiglauncha lets you "launch" that aura to a target point as well.
Imagine one that paints a target with flammable materials for a phase, letting burnaboyz or anything from the pyromaniacs get the full number of shots, or double it or something. But I digress, that is wishlisting territory.
I plan on getting the squig buggy and just proxying it as scrapjet after I gave it a spin or two. I have yet to have single opponent complain about me using my snazzwagon as KBB, and having another different looking vehicle beat fielding an army of clones any day.
Jidmah wrote: I plan on getting the squig buggy and just proxying it as scrapjet after I gave it a spin or two.
I have yet to have single opponent complain about me using my snazzwagon as KBB, and having another different looking vehicle beat fielding an army of clones any day.
From my experience whenever I explain proxies like that most players don't even know the difference and would of just taken my word for it to begin with. Only matters for tourneys with stricter TO's.
I'm not a big fan of the lack of customisation for buggies, especially when we have so many customisable kits to begin with! If I ever commit to a larger buggy list I'll be 3D printing and/or kit bashing my way through the extra models.
I think the lack of customization is very much a mind thing.
The KBB, SJD, snazzwagon and wartrike sets are very much are just a pile of exhaust, engines, tires, pipes and plates, with few to no parts actually locking you into a certain way to build them, unlike my DG daemon engines. The only thing that's difficult to switch are probably the drivers, but you can still head-swap those.
You could buy all of these and throw in a trukk set for good measure and create a bunch of completely unique buggies without needing to scratch-build or model things from green stuff.
The squig buggy seems to be very much the same, the scrap jet is the only odd one out, though you can still mix and match the tires and tracks with other sets.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah - agree! This monobuild system is stupid. That is my answer:
Spoiler:
I too had beef with the sawblade ramp designed to funnel gore and bone shards right into the exposed faces of the driver and gunners on the normal SJD, I wish I had seen your conversion before I did mine as yours is much simpler and looks better.
I’m new to orks and I’m wanting to make a more shooty/vehicle heavy list. I like planes, the dragsta, gork/mork, flashgitz and lootas and bikes. Can you guys help me craft a stronger 2k competitive list? I’m having a hard time to get it to fit into 2k and it feel like a competent list
Drdotts wrote: I’m new to orks and I’m wanting to make a more shooty/vehicle heavy list. I like planes, the dragsta, gork/mork, flashgitz and lootas and bikes. Can you guys help me craft a stronger 2k competitive list? I’m having a hard time to get it to fit into 2k and it feel like a competent list
I'd probably just post a list if I were you.
Honestly the only thing that seems out of place is Lootas, and you could probably squeeze those in. It's just you typically don't wanna field infantry other than grots in a mech heavy list.
Drdotts wrote: I’m new to orks and I’m wanting to make a more shooty/vehicle heavy list. I like planes, the dragsta, gork/mork, flashgitz and lootas and bikes. Can you guys help me craft a stronger 2k competitive list? I’m having a hard time to get it to fit into 2k and it feel like a competent list
What do you have? People can always create spammy lists but not everyone has 18 Mek guns, 3 flyers and 6 shockjump dragstas and 6 scrapjets.
How many flashgitz do you have?
How many mega nobs?
How many grots?
How many Mek guns?
I got first turn, mission 2 itc with itc ruin terrain: double L in the middle and 2 hills, 2 crater/woods and 4 small ruins. Vanguard strike deployment.
I deployed all the Grots and Ghaz in the front, planes and gunz back, Flashgitz in the wagon and characters in the null zone behind Grots.
When I explained what the bomber could do, he wasn't happy.
He deployed as you expect. Everything out of LoS, with a wrap around carcathers and Nurglins hidden in ruins.
I bombed and exploded getting 8w off the possessed, plus I got 4 carcathers and 2 tanks.
I shot 1 unit of Nurglins , charged the other one in the middle, pushing the 25 Grots to take 3/4 of the board.
The rest run to get midfield.
He flamed 45 Grots and denied Los to my SSAG
T2 I bombed and exploded again, taking 7Mw on the possessed and spent my whole army to take down one tank. I shot 4 possessed with the SSAG and killed a tank with Ghaz , than piled in the other.
He had left like 6 carcathers, 3 Nurglins and like 5? Possessed.
Ghaz was back there, couldn't die in 1 round, so he would take with him like 3 carcathers next round.
I lost 45 grots and 2 planes, because I exploded them....
Emicrania wrote: I got first turn, mission 2 itc with itc ruin terrain: double L in the middle and 2 hills, 2 crater/woods and 4 small ruins. Vanguard strike deployment.
I deployed all the Grots and Ghaz in the front, planes and gunz back, Flashgitz in the wagon and characters in the null zone behind Grots.
When I explained what the bomber could do, he wasn't happy.
He deployed as you expect. Everything out of LoS, with a wrap around carcathers and Nurglins hidden in ruins.
I bombed and exploded getting 8w off the possessed, plus I got 4 carcathers and 2 tanks.
I shot 1 unit of Nurglins , charged the other one in the middle, pushing the 25 Grots to take 3/4 of the board.
The rest run to get midfield.
He flamed 45 Grots and denied Los to my SSAG
T2 I bombed and exploded again, taking 7Mw on the possessed and spent my whole army to take down one tank. I shot 4 possessed with the SSAG and killed a tank with Ghaz , than piled in the other.
He had left like 6 carcathers, 3 Nurglins and like 5? Possessed.
Ghaz was back there, couldn't die in 1 round, so he would take with him like 3 carcathers next round.
I lost 45 grots and 2 planes, because I exploded them....
So you basically used Ghaz as threat saturation in a mech heavy list, as we sort of posited might be useful. What was your list again?
Drdotts wrote: I’m new to orks and I’m wanting to make a more shooty/vehicle heavy list. I like planes, the dragsta, gork/mork, flashgitz and lootas and bikes. Can you guys help me craft a stronger 2k competitive list? I’m having a hard time to get it to fit into 2k and it feel like a competent list
Agree with the posters above. I have had decent success with a list based around the things you listed, except for lootas. These really don't mesh well with vehicles for multiple reasons, and flash gits kind of exclude each other, as they are competing for the same stratagems and CP.
You also need to understand that this kind of list is not going to be winning tournaments with this kind of list - depending on how competitive your gaming group is, you might be investing in a list that loses a lot.
If that doesn't bother you, I can provide you with a couple of lists that have done well for me.
Emicrania wrote: I got first turn, mission 2 itc with itc ruin terrain: double L in the middle and 2 hills, 2 crater/woods and 4 small ruins. Vanguard strike deployment.
I deployed all the Grots and Ghaz in the front, planes and gunz back, Flashgitz in the wagon and characters in the null zone behind Grots.
When I explained what the bomber could do, he wasn't happy.
He deployed as you expect. Everything out of LoS, with a wrap around carcathers and Nurglins hidden in ruins.
I bombed and exploded getting 8w off the possessed, plus I got 4 carcathers and 2 tanks.
I shot 1 unit of Nurglins , charged the other one in the middle, pushing the 25 Grots to take 3/4 of the board.
The rest run to get midfield.
He flamed 45 Grots and denied Los to my SSAG
T2 I bombed and exploded again, taking 7Mw on the possessed and spent my whole army to take down one tank. I shot 4 possessed with the SSAG and killed a tank with Ghaz , than piled in the other.
He had left like 6 carcathers, 3 Nurglins and like 5? Possessed.
Ghaz was back there, couldn't die in 1 round, so he would take with him like 3 carcathers next round.
I lost 45 grots and 2 planes, because I exploded them....
So you basically used Ghaz as threat saturation in a mech heavy list, as we sort of posited might be useful. What was your list again?
Basically Ghaz is there in order to treath anything that dares to come close. He one shot centurions and murder anything else. A tzeench demon prince with 3++ goes down with 2A... I played 3 times Vs BASG spam and now them. GK dies of MW just as bad. The two list I fear are tau and RG, the restshould go down just as easy.
Anyway, I counted wrong, he killed 34 Grots, not 45. I need to test quarters deployment, otherwise I know ho to get 1/2 the board covered by T2
Lootas are just in a really weird position. The cover changes basically killed any hopes they have of surviving once the grotshields die out, and orks dont really suffer in the 2D department anyway. Problem is they have a POTENTIAL for such high damage that they wont get any buffs imo. Potential 45 autocannon shots is quite lethal after all.
@Emicrania, why blood axe for the last detachment? The only thing in that detachment is Ghaz, the Weirdboy w/ Clevertalk, and Dabooma Wagon. Clevertalk literally wont do anything unless the grots or gunwagon sees combat.
Basically Ghaz is there in order to treath anything that dares to come close. He one shot centurions and murder anything else. A tzeench demon prince with 3++ goes down with 2A... I played 3 times Vs BASG spam and now them. GK dies of MW just as bad. The two list I fear are tau and RG, the restshould go down just as easy.
Anyway, I counted wrong, he killed 34 Grots, not 45. I need to test quarters deployment, otherwise I know ho to get 1/2 the board covered by T2
Interesting. It kind of feels like you don't have that much, but if it works. Ghaz wasn't threatened too much without a Painboy to heal him up?
Yeah, I kind of wondered if GKs would have a really bad matchup vs Smasha Guns, as they basically outright ignore their best defensive stuff (transhuman and -1 to wound), and any models that fails to save has a pretty good chance of being pulled off. Once the paladins are crippled, you just win on board control.
Ya I don’t get the bloodaxe detachment...clevertalk is nice if you have melee clan units to benefit from it but ghaz won’t be able to use it... if there is no point to being blood axe just make it a pyromaniacs detachment and put both burna bombers in it for extra mortal wounds.
In fact da boomer gunwagon is better off in freebooter detachment so it can get +1 to hit bonus or deathskulls for reroll hit and wound and 6++ and the death skull psychic power.
I have bikes, 50-60 boyz 12 lootas, a warboss, 9 deffkoptas, a sag, some grots but plan on more of course, a Battlewagon, weirdboy Deffkilla Wartrike and I have my heart set on badrukk+flashgitz in a trukk
Evil suns would work with da boomer or pyromaniacs with 2 bombers... or just make it goff and exchange the weirdboy for makari to give ghaz and the grots fnp plus the grots higher leadership and move da boomer to one of the other 2 detachments with better clan buffs.
Boomboys for da boomer isn’t what da boomer needs. It needs better accuracy for its 4d6 shots.
gungo wrote: Ya I don’t get the bloodaxe detachment...clevertalk is nice if you have melee clan units to benefit from it but ghaz won’t be able to use it... if there is no point to being blood axe just make it a pyromaniacs detachment and put both burna bombers in it for extra mortal wounds.
In fact da boomer gunwagon is better off in freebooter detachment so it can get +1 to hit bonus or deathskulls for reroll hit and wound and 6++ and the death skull psychic power.
From the podcast where Steve Pampreen went over the original list he said Da Boomer was in blood axes so it couldn't get denied shooting from being tagged in melee and also to benefit from the +1 to armour save, so more of utility over raw damage choice. Clever Talk was actually being used in tandem with Gretchen and a biker warboss (not present in Emicrania's list). If you use Clever Talk on an enemy unit and charge the Blood Axe Gretchen into anything, then the unit affected by the spell can't fight until the Blood Axe Gretchen have been chosen to fight with. So you could chuck your non-Blood Axe units at it and just chip away at it while it waits for Gretchen to slap something on the other side of the map.
Emicrania wrote: Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.
I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.
He conceded T2.
That list is a tournament winner list.
I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:
1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.
It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.
Emicrania wrote: Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.
I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.
He conceded T2.
That list is a tournament winner list.
I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:
1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.
It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.
Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.
Basically Ghaz is there in order to treath anything that dares to come close. He one shot centurions and murder anything else. A tzeench demon prince with 3++ goes down with 2A... I played 3 times Vs BASG spam and now them. GK dies of MW just as bad. The two list I fear are tau and RG, the restshould go down just as easy.
Anyway, I counted wrong, he killed 34 Grots, not 45. I need to test quarters deployment, otherwise I know ho to get 1/2 the board covered by T2
Interesting. It kind of feels like you don't have that much, but if it works. Ghaz wasn't threatened too much without a Painboy to heal him up?
Yeah, I kind of wondered if GKs would have a really bad matchup vs Smasha Guns, as they basically outright ignore their best defensive stuff (transhuman and -1 to wound), and any models that fails to save has a pretty good chance of being pulled off. Once the paladins are crippled, you just win on board control.
The painboy would give the edge necessary to not be oneshotted, anything else is not necessary, imho. People tend to ignore ghaz, or go for oneshot, otherwise they bother shooting something else, which is great. Hes there to make all the Grots fearless and treat countercharges. If and when he'll get advance and charge, I'll consider a painboy.
People tend to forget that you need to chew on 115 fearless grots before getting into the deployment. I'll test RG asap and let ya guys know.
gungo wrote:Ya I don’t get the bloodaxe detachment...clevertalk is nice if you have melee clan units to benefit from it but ghaz won’t be able to use it... if there is no point to being blood axe just make it a pyromaniacs detachment and put both burna bombers in it for extra mortal wounds.
In fact da boomer gunwagon is better off in freebooter detachment so it can get +1 to hit bonus or deathskulls for reroll hit and wound and 6++ and the death skull psychic power.
Da boomer could go in the freebooterz, but id need to shave off another Smashaguns. What you can do with it know, is killing scout and MSU in combat, or maybe just tag em and fall back next round.
BA spell is awesome on Ghaz Vs flamers and should be as well Vs tau, especially paired up with a unit of Grots in order to avoid interruption. Is definitely better on the bike boss, because of his speed, but hopefully, when Ghaz get advance and charge, he can keep up.
I tried having pyromaniac and I don't is worth is because you loose the help of the DJ with freebooterz trait, plus that +1 to w is 1,5 more MW per plane, loosing 4CP in the proces
BA spell is BA locked though, Ghaz is Goff.
Unless you had something like a Deffkopta to zip in and "eat" the overwatch and stall by not selecting it to attack yet, Ghaz cant "benefit" from it.
You must be facing people that freely ignore grots, my grots die the moment they arent behind a wall because my opponents know they can generally delete them pretty easily and they yield objective kills (we usually only play maelstrom so that could be afactor). I would say win for me because theyre wasting shots on grots, but a random 5man tacmarine squad is hardly "wasting shots" when the alternative is T6+ stuff lol
One question I'm curious about. The Blood Axe spell makes the opponent strike after all eligible blood axe units have fought (meaning you can indeed sandwich none BA units into that order) but what if the opponent uses the counter attack stratagem to fight next? Which rule takes priority? Spell or Stratagem?
"Cannot" overrules anything. You'll notice any exception rules never seem to stomp on the word "Cannot" BA Spell stops them from fighting first, period, as it says Cannot. It also would be immensely useless if it didnt trump on such abilities. All it would do at that point is prey on stupidity (why did you charge me if i Clevertalked you...) or stop the 2cp interrupt strat.
Exactly, which is why that spell is so freaking good.
Grots do die to stiff breeze, still having 120 little buggers running up the field from T1 tend to make them harder to focus. If I see you, you see me, if not tau or Mani Cheema LVo list. This means that, once brohammer lists are out of the field, very few armies can counter so many multidamage shots that Orks can throw out.
I might take out the BA Weirboy for a mek, but until the faq comes out, which we are looooong, overdue; I'd like to not rely on it too much
Tau are funny as orks... my roommate got into them and i tend to run a LOT of rokkits/kmbs as it is. Even with those 4++ invuls on his suits they just go pop so fast lol.
Feel bad for him. Just bought into this new army that feeds his Gundam fantasy and the main army he faces hard counters him lol.
So, I've had another game with the list I played last time, and many of the take-aways remain true. The most glaring issues are that Da Boomer constantly fails to perform despite periscope and deffskulls re-rolls, a weird boy without bonus from orks around him is very unreliable at casting Maniacal Seizures and SJD work best when you don't jump them.
On the other hand, I witnessed multiple situations where I wished my scrapjet could fight twice for utility reasons (closing gaps, locking tanks, clearing chaff), so I'll be giving the korkscrew a closer look.
Jumping a unit of MANz with da jump T1 seems to be a much more cost-efficient alternative to warbikers, and their new stratagem is pure murder. To be fair, I haven't failed their charge yet, let's see how the game goes when I do. Probably need some more practice to make sure the wazbomm is where my MANz are going to jump. The wazbom blastajet itself is a completely different thing from a dakkajet, and they way I move it leaves much room for improvement. Despite that, I'm pretty impressed by what it provides to the army.
Other stuff remains as good as in the first game. I feel like the two burna bommers 'eadbutting stuff are deciding games in my favor all on their own - people struggle to find deployments which deny good 'eadbuts but don't cripple them otherwise.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tau are funny as orks... my roommate got into them and i tend to run a LOT of rokkits/kmbs as it is. Even with those 4++ invuls on his suits they just go pop so fast lol.
Feel bad for him. Just bought into this new army that feeds his Gundam fantasy and the main army he faces hard counters him lol.
Tell him to run more Drones. Those things are such a nuisance...
The amount of tau armies on sale right now is insane.
They are pretty much were we were before the codex - there is a competitive build that works, but it sucks to play. Except, they already have codex and PA and nothing else is going to happen soon.
Which sucks, because they have a great, differentiated codex with many beatiful models.
Jid, are you running all your test matches in TTS, right? I´d love to hear some feedback from the real board. I love TTS to test armies and deployment, but i feel it lacks something I can´t pin.
Our gaming location is still affected by the lock-down so I won't be gaming on actual tables for quite some time.
However, the only really big difference between real play and TTS is non-linear movement (around corners/other models) and when you try to have stuff in base contact. Either is not really well supported by TTS and thus tends to lose you distance when it comes up. Outside of that, I don't think it would matter a lot for the games I have played, except terrain being more plentiful and LOS blocking on our real tables than on those tables designed for ITC play.
I saw they gutted everything i liked to do as tau so i sold them before they got pegged terrible or something, so i got about 60% of my money back for it (bought admech with that money).
Single-suit suicide deepstrikes = gone, min3 squads now for some reason Melee Ghostkeels = gone, Smash should not have gone away (weakened yes, removed no) Piranha wall = gone, theyre laughably expensive and the lack of AV kinda removes their strength (they were JUST durable enough to royally piss people off for their cost) Almost every Prototype item that was popular was removed due to the Relic system.
I warned him Tau were in a weird spot but he bought them anyway. At least he bought mostly other people's armies so he didnt pay TOO much. I just find it funny how hard orks counter them when previously it was SO the other way around.
Emicrania wrote: Exactly, which is why that spell is so freaking good.
Grots do die to stiff breeze, still having 120 little buggers running up the field from T1 tend to make them harder to focus. If I see you, you see me, if not tau or Mani Cheema LVo list. This means that, once brohammer lists are out of the field, very few armies can counter so many multidamage shots that Orks can throw out.
I might take out the BA Weirboy for a mek, but until the faq comes out, which we are looooong, overdue; I'd like to not rely on it too much
Out of curiosity, do you warp head all of your weirdboys?
I see so many snipers but man am I sold generally on being able to Da Jump and smite from the same model on the same turn.
I haven´t met snipers in a while, but da jump caster is always the priority, when the SSAG is not avaible, ATM I warphead 2 weirdboy since warpath is not needed, vs a sniper heavy list i would warphead 3 and take double Da Jump
Emicrania wrote: I haven´t met snipers in a while, but da jump caster is always the priority, when the SSAG is not avaible, ATM I warphead 2 weirdboy since warpath is not needed, vs a sniper heavy list i would warphead 3 and take double Da Jump
Yeah I guess in your particular list, fists of Gork on ghaz is better than warpath. The flash gits are your best warpath target, and that’s really a YOLO play.
My Eldar buddy pretty much fields 20 rangers minimum lol. Makes me sad weirdboys are fodder.
Emicrania wrote: I haven´t met snipers in a while, but da jump caster is always the priority, when the SSAG is not avaible, ATM I warphead 2 weirdboy since warpath is not needed, vs a sniper heavy list i would warphead 3 and take double Da Jump
Yeah I guess in your particular list, fists of Gork on ghaz is better than warpath. The flash gits are your best warpath target, and that’s really a YOLO play.
My Eldar buddy pretty much fields 20 rangers minimum lol. Makes me sad weirdboys are fodder.
Sorry to hear buddy, I dunno witch list you play, but remember that beside FoG we don´t need LOS, you can keep your weirdboy safe and sound behind cover all game.
Now, if you meet 3x3 eliminators, that is a real pickle...
Emicrania wrote: I haven´t met snipers in a while, but da jump caster is always the priority, when the SSAG is not avaible, ATM I warphead 2 weirdboy since warpath is not needed, vs a sniper heavy list i would warphead 3 and take double Da Jump
Yeah I guess in your particular list, fists of Gork on ghaz is better than warpath. The flash gits are your best warpath target, and that’s really a YOLO play.
My Eldar buddy pretty much fields 20 rangers minimum lol. Makes me sad weirdboys are fodder.
Sorry to hear buddy, I dunno witch list you play, but remember that beside FoG we don´t need LOS, you can keep your weirdboy safe and sound behind cover all game.
Now, if you meet 3x3 eliminators, that is a real pickle...
I mix it up a lot, the folks I play with typically aren’t fielding top tier lists or are willing to tone it down.
Honestly, he never fields alatoic or flyer spam on principle, so I’ll take a bunch of rangers over that. I just wish I could return the favour with my own snipers :p
Just makes you sensitive to how squishy some of our key stuff is when it can’t poke it’s nose out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question:
If you threw freebootas into a mixed detachment, could they trigger the +1 to hit but not benefit from it?
Emicrania wrote: I haven´t met snipers in a while, but da jump caster is always the priority, when the SSAG is not avaible, ATM I warphead 2 weirdboy since warpath is not needed, vs a sniper heavy list i would warphead 3 and take double Da Jump
Yeah I guess in your particular list, fists of Gork on ghaz is better than warpath. The flash gits are your best warpath target, and that’s really a YOLO play.
My Eldar buddy pretty much fields 20 rangers minimum lol. Makes me sad weirdboys are fodder.
Sorry to hear buddy, I dunno witch list you play, but remember that beside FoG we don´t need LOS, you can keep your weirdboy safe and sound behind cover all game.
Now, if you meet 3x3 eliminators, that is a real pickle...
Very intresting listed you shared last page Especially Da Boomer, 4d6 shots sure does sound juicy. I had a thought, lets say you put it in your freeboota detachment, make it a Blitz Brigade and put the "Da Blitz Shouta" inside together with Opening Salvo. You trigger the FB +1 bs with the Smashas. Now you have 4d6 "72, str 8 dmg 2, -2ap ,+4 bs and rerolling 1s. Pretty big investment but could be fun
Oooorrrr, you keep it as evil sunz and cast visions in the smoke on wc 6
Wakshaani wrote: "Make a fully-painted army" I said. "You've never had one so it'll be fun" I said.
*looks at mountain of boys*
Og lordy, ladz. What have I gotten myself into? Grey Clan was good enough for decades, right?
*collapses weeping*
Actually, if you go ten by ten, and once you spend four or five hours on them, you will see it is not that long to paint 90 boyz. 25 hours total I 'd say. Alternatively, you can just buy painted boyz on ebay, and sell the grey horde you have
Wakshaani wrote: "Make a fully-painted army" I said. "You've never had one so it'll be fun" I said.
*looks at mountain of boys*
Og lordy, ladz. What have I gotten myself into? Grey Clan was good enough for decades, right?
*collapses weeping*
That's why I always ask people if they enjoy painting when they tell me they want to start orks.
On a more serious note, the trick to painting boyz quickly is not painting any unnecessary details - in blobs of 30 you won't be noticing those anyways.
Prime them in whatever color you want their armor to be(usual your clan's color), paint skin on heads, arms and bodies in green, paint weapons in leadblecher, brown paints, apply wash. Done.
And don't even think about painting blood axes
‘The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step’ :-)
Spray paint is your friend atm - pick a Clan, spray legs & torsos Clan colour, spray heads & arms green, spray bases ground colour, assemble and paint metals silver. At least then you have the basics down, and can play with the paint as you play.
Remember, it’s an entertainment, not a life sentence ;-)
I went with black torso, brown legs and just have clan colors on shoulder pads/helmets.
I also suggest at least painting the ork's eyes, teeth and tongues(when visible), they look odd otherwise.
Picking heads without helmets also speeds up painting.
Hehe I'm sadomasochist and while I have unified colours for each clans there's several patterns I do for each. For this ork shirt is blue, for the other trouser is etc for deathskull. Belts and boots alter with browns and blacks etc...For gretchin all sort of colours.
I do them in factory style with one colour but I'm applying them on different parts on each model.
tneva82 wrote: Hehe I'm sadomasochist and while I have unified colours for each clans there's several patterns I do for each. For this ork shirt is blue, for the other trouser is etc for deathskull. Belts and boots alter with browns and blacks etc...For gretchin all sort of colours.
I do them in factory style with one colour but I'm applying them on different parts on each model.
Jidmah wrote: If you factor in the cost for nobz and MANz, the box is actually quite a good deal, compared to how much people have to pay for Gulliman or Abaddon.
Oh for sure...the $89 was just for ghaz though haha
Billagio wrote: Finally Ghaz is available on ebay in the US.....$89 Still probably a bit overpriced
Wow.
I split the box for 105 CAD. That’s nuts. Not worth it :p
I saw someone on Reddit apparently opened the box to 3 Ghaz sprues.
I’m also in the process of painting Grots. Boy howdy, it’s hard to care about Grots paint job. I’m also trying to decide but I wanna deal with then when I mix clans, as I sometimes just go mono DS
I got one box off ebay when it first released and apparently the place I ordered it from got the shipments in before lockdown, so I had one quickly for 150.00. I split the box with a local guy for 75 bucks. I then bought up the ork half from another guy who got one of the early boxes in, I kept the meganobz and nobz and sold off the makari and Ghaz together for 76.00.
And I still have another box preordered and split with another local guy, but that store hasn't received they're shipment yet. I'll also be junking off the Ghaz and makari. The plan is to end up with 9 Meganobz, 15 Nobz, Ghaz and Makari for no more than 100 bucks. And I think I will be pretty close.
Stupid question, but do you measure auras (and explosions) as the crow flies?
For example if I have a burna bomma that is blowing up, and it is parked 4 inches away from a enemy unit that is 3" up(lets say on the second level of a ruin), which puts them 7" away in terms of charges/movement, but 6" or less measuring directly from the bomma... are they hit by the explosion?
Furthermore, any funky or interesting rules worth brushing up on regarding flyers and exploding radius?
I also got a quick question here, the new Evil Sunz power Visions in the smoke: would it effect the embarked units to reroll hits as well if said unit is emarked in an open toppen trukk or battlewagon? I know the mobile fortress have been cleared by FAQ already but this feels diffrent.
Visions in the smoke:
"f manifested, select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit
within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with
a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of
the psychic test to manifest this psychic power was 9 or
more). Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when
resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can
re-roll the hit roll."
Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase. Measure xxx.... When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passenger; for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. "
tulun wrote: I’m also in the process of painting Grots. Boy howdy, it’s hard to care about Grots paint job. I’m also trying to decide but I wanna deal with then when I mix clans, as I sometimes just go mono DS
Just paint them in a way that each mob of gretchin has a unique color, no matter what their clan is. Will save you lots of head-aches when playing.
Bryten wrote: I also got a quick question here, the new Evil Sunz power Visions in the smoke: would it effect the embarked units to reroll hits as well if said unit is emarked in an open toppen trukk or battlewagon? I know the mobile fortress have been cleared by FAQ already but this feels diffrent.
Visions in the smoke: "f manifested, select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of the psychic test to manifest this psychic power was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can re-roll the hit roll."
Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase. Measure xxx.... When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passenger; for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. "
What do you guys think?
Rerolls are not modifiers. So no-they would not get rerolls.
weaver9 wrote: Stupid question, but do you measure auras (and explosions) as the crow flies?
For example if I have a burna bomma that is blowing up, and it is parked 4 inches away from a enemy unit that is 3" up(lets say on the second level of a ruin), which puts them 7" away in terms of charges/movement, but 6" or less measuring directly from the bomma... are they hit by the explosion?
Furthermore, any funky or interesting rules worth brushing up on regarding flyers and exploding radius?
Whenever you measure to or from a model, if the models has a base, you measure from base to base, that's also true for fliers. You do not ignore the third dimension, you'd measure in a direct line from the base of the flier up to the unit in the ruin to see if they are hit.
In addition, uless they have fly, the unit in the ruin first has to climb 3" down in a direct line and then move towards their charge target from there, they don't get to charge in a direct line.
FLY only chances how you move, not anything else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryten wrote: I also got a quick question here, the new Evil Sunz power Visions in the smoke: would it effect the embarked units to reroll hits as well if said unit is emarked in an open toppen trukk or battlewagon? I know the mobile fortress have been cleared by FAQ already but this feels diffrent.
Visions in the smoke:
"f manifested, select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit
within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with
a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of
the psychic test to manifest this psychic power was 9 or
more). Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when
resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can
re-roll the hit roll."
Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase. Measure xxx.... When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passenger; for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. "
What do you guys think?
The effect of visions is neither restriction nor modifier, and therefore does not affect the passengers under any circumstances.
tulun wrote: I’m also in the process of painting Grots. Boy howdy, it’s hard to care about Grots paint job. I’m also trying to decide but I wanna deal with then when I mix clans, as I sometimes just go mono DS
Just paint them in a way that each mob of gretchin has a unique color, no matter what their clan is. Will save you lots of head-aches when playing.
What I did before painting them was outline the base with a colour to denote squad, maybe I'll just do that again. Colour uniformity will look better than having some random red grots / purple / yellow (etc) grots.
I saw the recent WD leaks for both the Harlies and Orks in terms of rules. Harlequins definitely got some props unlike Deathwatch, and I'm surprised that the rules for Grukk and the Goff Rokka aren't half bad. It sucks they're just narrative rules though, I mean his model exists, would it kill them to give us points?
Wakshaani wrote: "Make a fully-painted army" I said. "You've never had one so it'll be fun" I said.
*looks at mountain of boys*
Og lordy, ladz. What have I gotten myself into? Grey Clan was good enough for decades, right?
*collapses weeping*
Actually, if you go ten by ten, and once you spend four or five hours on them, you will see it is not that long to paint 90 boyz. 25 hours total I 'd say. Alternatively, you can just buy painted boyz on ebay, and sell the grey horde you have
These thirty have taken me about … pfff. Ten hours thusfar? Still have a long way to go. AND they still suck.
I combine being horribly slow with being horribly bad. It's why I had grey legions for FOREVER, but, trying to turn over a new leaf here.
Grimskul wrote: I saw the recent WD leaks for both the Harlies and Orks in terms of rules. Harlequins definitely got some props unlike Deathwatch, and I'm surprised that the rules for Grukk and the Goff Rokka aren't half bad. It sucks they're just narrative rules though, I mean his model exists, would it kill them to give us points?
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Those don't look too bad, even if they are locked into goff. Too bad that they will just rot with the looted wagon rules because they don't have points.
tulun wrote: I’m also in the process of painting Grots. Boy howdy, it’s hard to care about Grots paint job. I’m also trying to decide but I wanna deal with then when I mix clans, as I sometimes just go mono DS
Just paint them in a way that each mob of gretchin has a unique color, no matter what their clan is. Will save you lots of head-aches when playing.
What I did before painting them was outline the base with a colour to denote squad, maybe I'll just do that again. Colour uniformity will look better than having some random red grots / purple / yellow (etc) grots.
I didn't mean to say that you should paint the actual gretchin in red, just their pants/helmets/bandanas.
Grimskul wrote: I saw the recent WD leaks for both the Harlies and Orks in terms of rules. Harlequins definitely got some props unlike Deathwatch, and I'm surprised that the rules for Grukk and the Goff Rokka aren't half bad. It sucks they're just narrative rules though, I mean his model exists, would it kill them to give us points?
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I actually like those rules and wouldn't mind trying to make it happen in a list. Would be fun to cram all 3 units into a trukk and drop them off somewhere to unload a large volume of big choppa + choppa attacks. Probably won't get to without points values and forced Narrative and Open Play.
I don't mind them creating Open Play and Narrative only models but it drives me nuts when they don't give them points values. Matched play with points is the defacto rules that everyone I know uses, even if its a Narrative or Homebrew mission. You could house rule conversions from PL to Points but for better or worse people prefer to stick with the official rules.
Jidmah wrote: I also like the idea of overloading Goff with so many melee buffs, that a nob and his six last boyz still murder half the enemy army
If Grukk has lost at least one wound, he will pretty much one-shot an entire unit of primaris
If you give him Fists of Gork he mostly like would too. I like the idea of having a character that can function like a blender against infantry, we have a lot of ways to get a character to chew through something big but not many that could chew through 10 models. I know Buzzgob could do this but I avoid taking him due to his KFF making no sense.
Look at his warlord trait - if he loses just one wound, he goes up to 8 attacks with S12, AP-4, hitting on 2+ and re-rolling wounds, and he gets goff's exploding sixes.
Wakshaani wrote: "Make a fully-painted army" I said. "You've never had one so it'll be fun" I said.
*looks at mountain of boys*
Og lordy, ladz. What have I gotten myself into? Grey Clan was good enough for decades, right?
*collapses weeping*
Actually, if you go ten by ten, and once you spend four or five hours on them, you will see it is not that long to paint 90 boyz. 25 hours total I 'd say. Alternatively, you can just buy painted boyz on ebay, and sell the grey horde you have
These thirty have taken me about … pfff. Ten hours thusfar? Still have a long way to go. AND they still suck.
I combine being horribly slow with being horribly bad. It's why I had grey legions for FOREVER, but, trying to turn over a new leaf here.
So I just have to suck it up and eat the pain.
Good luck man, you will get there. The fact that you already started on 30 models is already really good, you should be proud of that, it’s an achievement
Jidmah wrote: Look at his warlord trait - if he loses just one wound, he goes up to 8 attacks with S12, AP-4, hitting on 2+ and re-rolling wounds, and he gets goff's exploding sixes.
Yeah thats what I meant, if you add firsts of gork then he's up to 10 attacks. He'd be expecting to get 0.97 hits per attack by himself and with re-rolling wounds he'd average 0.94 dead Primaris per attack. So on average he'd expect to wipe the squad with Fists of Gork and the Warlord trait. According to Warhammer-stats-engine it's about a ~50% chance to completely wipe the squad, ~72% chance to kill 9, ~89% chance to kill 8, and 96% chance to kill 7.
Grimskul wrote: I saw the recent WD leaks for both the Harlies and Orks in terms of rules. Harlequins definitely got some props unlike Deathwatch, and I'm surprised that the rules for Grukk and the Goff Rokka aren't half bad. It sucks they're just narrative rules though, I mean his model exists, would it kill them to give us points?
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Oh yeah, if they do give us points and technically let us use them in regular 40K it could be fun. Having an excuse to use those Goff Rokkers in game would be absolutely awesome!
Those rules are actually pretty good, it’s a shame they’re seemingly not at all for matched play but I’d imagine I can get a game in with them somehow. That sort of thing would definitely make me more inclined to use Goffs.
I mean, there's a load of options. Make some drums, give him a microphone and have him standing on a massive pair of speakers. Have him smashing a guitar against the ground. All would be easy enough with a standard boy or a Nob.
Go figure, they actually give Goffs some stuff that makes me wanna play them and its open play only.
I swear orks are the only ones they do that with. Why even bother making the dataslate if you are gonna slap Open Play on it?
There difference between "nobody" and the number of people that can play datasheets without point costs is pretty irrelevant to the vast majority of players though.
I have no problems running Da Red Gobbo every other game, but a kill krusha tank? Nope.
Now that's a warlord. Grukk is closer to what a Warboss SHOULD have been out of the gate. It doesn't need 2 CP just to get good.
How good they would be, of course, would depend on their point cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How many points would you pay for gut ripper? 4 power means they judge him to roughly be 80 points. I'd add 15 on top of it. 95 points for that would be sick and maybe even undercosted.
90pts sounds about right. Regular boss w/o relic or strat (which should not be factored in his base cost) is overpriced for what he can do. Grukk being slightly more expensive, but properly killy and doesnt die to a stiff breeze is worth it. And he's a great warlord choice, unlike Ghaz, who still uses the base Goff trait and completely wastes half of it (ap5 melee...who cares)
If they gave these things points, i would buy Grukk box in a heartbeat. I actually dont have it because i dont need another boss or nobz. I dont know a single ork player that owns him either for the same reason.
well the 2 attack squig attacks have their own profile, theyre kinda weird. Attack squig used to grant +1 attack, not sure why they changed it to have the squig literally bite at the target now.
And imo, not only is the base warboss overpriced anyway, but named characters should be stronger than generics for the cost since you cant spam them and often cant bring them all due to kulture locks. GW generally doesnt do that for a lot of characters but im generally not upset when a named character is noticeably bonkers good..its just 1 model.
Vineheart01 wrote: well the 2 attack squig attacks have their own profile, theyre kinda weird. Attack squig used to grant +1 attack, not sure why they changed it to have the squig literally bite at the target now.
And imo, not only is the base warboss overpriced anyway, but named characters should be stronger than generics for the cost since you cant spam them and often cant bring them all due to kulture locks. GW generally doesnt do that for a lot of characters but im generally not upset when a named character is noticeably bonkers good..its just 1 model.
Oh I know re: attack squig. It just makes him a really good chaff clearer even without the bonus (5 PK attacks +2 squig attacks, which can also explode cause they are Goffs), and becomes a nutty primaris clearer if he gets hurt.
Special characters are a weird thing to me. When they are auto takes it seems to be bad form, imo, because then Girlyman (for example) is in every minor fight in the existence of 40k. I'd rather they just be good.
To be honest, most of the Ork special characters are pretty underwhelming. The only one I regularly wanna take is Mad Dok, and he's not even that OP, he's just clearly way better than a regular painboy.
Yeah, those nobz would actually be able to hit hard enough to bother getting them into combat. I'd use the goff rokker to buff skarboyz though. S6 boyz is sounds terrifying.
Alas, freebie rules seem to be a largely Imperium-dominated monopoly as far as matched play goes. I guess it shows that GW is capable of writing decent Ork rules when it comes to open/narrative play, but they won't risk it outshining their glory boys when it comes to actual impact to tournaments.
Like the mini indexes? Blood Ravens, assassins, inquisition and i'm sure there are a few more that escape my memory at the moment? It's odd indeed that GW doesn't just give us Grukk the nobs and the Rokkas as normal units. It's not like they're too over the top if pointed accurately.
Vineheart01 wrote: well the 2 attack squig attacks have their own profile, theyre kinda weird. Attack squig used to grant +1 attack, not sure why they changed it to have the squig literally bite at the target now.
And imo, not only is the base warboss overpriced anyway, but named characters should be stronger than generics for the cost since you cant spam them and often cant bring them all due to kulture locks. GW generally doesnt do that for a lot of characters but im generally not upset when a named character is noticeably bonkers good..its just 1 model.
eh that's the noob game design view. "It's 0-1 so let's underprice it". And hey presto you get default unit you always pick up.
Agree, 0-1 can be used to put things in the game that would break if you had multiple of them, but the single one must be balanced against other options in some way.
On the topic of something other than Grukk. I've gotten some games in with a Da boomer gunwagon and it's actually pretty decent. I play ES so I've chucked (or at least tried to) "Visions" on it basically every turn but it's managed to earn its points back every game, significantly more than that in one game.
I have been facing plenty of meq and teq though so that certainly helps. Assuming you fire it after your opponent has already used his "transhuman" strat then it mulches any type of power armour. I haven't really gotten to use it as AT yet but it doesn't feel like the weird point sink I assumed it'd be.
I also tried the ZagZap but that one's a bit tougher to love. It managed to kill several GK paladins one game by rolling 9+ strength and simply putting MWs on them but it feels less worth its points. Not terrible, just okay enough that you don't feel horrendously punished for using it in a semi-competitive game. It's sort of non threatening enough that most opponents don't want to slog through 16 T8 wounds on something that doesn't degrade.
Super buffed, 9 man strong big choppa nob bikers are as expected not worth the investment. They're pretty fun though and can actually hit hard. It's just that 342 points and (at least) 2 CP is way too steep of an investment.
Super buffed, 9 man strong big choppa nob bikers are as expected not worth the investment. They're pretty fun though and can actually hit hard. It's just that 342 points and (at least) 2 CP is way too steep of an investment.
Yeah it’s not surprising.
9 Nobs with the same damage output is literally half the cost ( 171 points less ) and doesn’t require 3 CP to get them in if you use Da Jump. I’m not sure 1-3 CP and 171 points is worth +1 toughness and wound realistically. Yeah you guarantee the charge, but 80% is already pretty consistent. Plus you need to expose your biker boss or war trike because the bikes definitely advance.
You still get a bunch of shooting with the bikes as well but it's that +1 strength that makes them actually punch hard. When I've gotten to use them at full (or near full) unit size then they will chew through basically anything, including T8 models.
I'd really just like a 7 point shave per model on those guys. 31 points for a nob biker with a big choppa would be pretty interesting (obviously dropping normal bikers a few ppm as well). That'd bring the unit cost down to 279, which I doubt would be competitive due to the many drawbacks with non-infantry, non-fly models. But they'd be pretty good then I think.
I really think bikers should just get a new strat in general. Something like "Use at the beginning at the shooting phase, when resolving an attack against the chosen biker unit reduce the incoming damage by 1 (to a minimum of 1)". 1CP cost.
Basically duty eternal but for an entire unit of bikers with the drawback that it's not activated when the unit is targeted but rather the beginning of the phase.
PiñaColada wrote: You still get a bunch of shooting with the bikes as well but it's that +1 strength that makes them actually punch hard. When I've gotten to use them at full (or near full) unit size then they will chew through basically anything, including T8 models.
I'd really just like a 7 point shave per model on those guys. 31 points for a nob biker with a big choppa would be pretty interesting (obviously dropping normal bikers a few ppm as well). That'd bring the unit cost down to 279, which I doubt would be competitive due to the many drawbacks with non-infantry, non-fly models. But they'd be pretty good then I think.
I really think bikers should just get a new strat in general. Something like "Use at the beginning at the shooting phase, when resolving an attack against the chosen biker unit reduce the incoming damage by 1 (to a minimum of 1)". 1CP cost.
Basically duty eternal but for an entire unit of bikers with the drawback that it's not activated when the unit is targeted but rather the beginning of the phase.
Yeah that would be a massive boon to get -1 damage. Both Warbikers / Nob bikers would be a lot harder to shift efficiently. It would also be rad if Visions worked on biker units (although that might be hard to get in range), as now your biker squads can probably poke enough holes in screens by themselves in shooting and now they re-roll all hits in CC.
Fair enough. Str 8 Big Choppas and off hand str 6 choppa is pretty solid. Add in warpath for flavour. That is 4 CP now, though. I really wish saga didn't just chew through our CP.
I am pretty sure Nob Bikers actually make decent alternatives to Warbikers, but we know already that their walking counterparts are probably better. I'll probably try them next time I decide to do use a biker unit build. But yeah, both need points drops realistically to compete with boys / nobs.
Oh man, I would not want Visions to work on warbikers! Imagine rolling 72 dice with DDD and full rerolls haha. That sounds awful, especially if you're firing at like meq in cover/teq
Edit: But in regards to buffing bikers I certainly wouldn't be opposed if the waaagh banner just became equipment a nob could take. Meaning either the leader in a normal bike squad or just anyone in the nob bike squad. Say it's 20 points and not an aura but just buffs that unit or something.
PiñaColada wrote: Oh man, I would not want Visions to work on warbikers! Imagine rolling 72 dice with DDD and full rerolls haha. That sounds awful, especially if you're firing at like meq in cover/teq.
Just 140 dice rolls before you get to to wound phase 186 before saves. That's actually not even worst I have seen. Sister of battle arco flagelants can top that one in dice rolling...
Too much dice rolls! Can't GW come up with buff that isn't reroll?
Yeah, I've got a whole little box of the weapons currently unequipped. Usually the Kustom Shootas, as much as I love the potential damage a bunch of skorchas can cause 17pts for each is just too damn much.
Also, for a Boomboyz detachment to sort out the anti tank needs do you think 3 trukks with small to medium sized tank bustas and a gunwagon armed with da boomer and lobba would work out? Would you make it a battalion or keep it as an elites detachment to save on points? Are there any other really attractive units you'd put in said detachment?
cody.d. wrote: Yeah, I've got a whole little box of the weapons currently unequipped. Usually the Kustom Shootas, as much as I love the potential damage a bunch of skorchas can cause 17pts for each is just too damn much.
Also, for a Boomboyz detachment to sort out the anti tank needs do you think 3 trukks with small to medium sized tank bustas and a gunwagon armed with da boomer and lobba would work out? Would you make it a battalion or keep it as an elites detachment to save on points? Are there any other really attractive units you'd put in said detachment?
Make it 3 Chinorks for free deep strike and you got a stew going.
I think you've more or less identified the units that works best here. Lots of Tankbustas, Da Boomer, and Lobbas.
Probably honourable mention to Megatrakks and Deff Koptas too.
I'm going to be honest. Unless there is a specific need for it I don't usually use deepstrike that often. I'm a much bigger fan of having target saturation on the board from turn one, rather than having a quarter of my army waiting in the winds for a turn or two.
PiñaColada wrote: Oh man, I would not want Visions to work on warbikers! Imagine rolling 72 dice with DDD and full rerolls haha. That sounds awful, especially if you're firing at like meq in cover/teq.
Just 140 dice rolls before you get to to wound phase 186 before saves. That's actually not even worst I have seen. Sister of battle arco flagelants can top that one in dice rolling...
Too much dice rolls! Can't GW come up with buff that isn't reroll?
I stopped rolling these kind of units with real dice and use a dice app for them instead. Real dice are now reserved for making 20 or less rolls.
So much of a quality of life improvement for both me and my opponent.
You still need to do dakkadakkadakka manually, but it's decent enough for the 3-4 times I need it per game.
It also has the nice bonus of being rather well known, to silence any "you might have hacked the app" nonsense.
PiñaColada wrote: Oh man, I would not want Visions to work on warbikers! Imagine rolling 72 dice with DDD and full rerolls haha. That sounds awful, especially if you're firing at like meq in cover/teq.
Just 140 dice rolls before you get to to wound phase 186 before saves. That's actually not even worst I have seen. Sister of battle arco flagelants can top that one in dice rolling...
Too much dice rolls! Can't GW come up with buff that isn't reroll?
I stopped rolling these kind of units with real dice and use a dice app for them instead. Real dice are now reserved for making 20 or less rolls.
So much of a quality of life improvement for both me and my opponent.
Helps though not accepted everywhere. And I can see bit of point for tournaments. Making dice app isn't too hard. If I wanted I could do one that looks same as commonly used that gives me bit less 2's and 3's and more 4's and 5's instead twisting odds in my favour.
But yeah that helps a bit. But still would prefer game with less ridiculous rolling amount.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: It also has the nice bonus of being rather well known, to silence any "you might have hacked the app" nonsense.
Unless you go through phone settings you wouldn't really spot it though. If it looks and functions same(except for different distribution) how you going to tell the difference?
tneva82 wrote: If I wanted I could do one that looks same as commonly used that gives me bit less 2's and 3's and more 4's and 5's instead twisting odds in my favour.
No you can't. Have a look at the app I linked.
It's less effort to create loaded dice by casting the plastic yourself or printing and binding a new codex with altered content than to create an app with the same look&feel and change its functionality.
This is a huge part of why I use this specific app. It is rather well known and the costs to alter it immensely outweighs the gain.
Trying to think of the best version of the tin head list. The idea of krumping Killa Kans is too sweet to not play around with. On paper too. KK w/ Big Shoota are offensively better than normal MANz, and have more wounds and toughness to boot.
Wonder if 1 fast squad and 2 slow squads might be fine.
Killa Kans [14 PL, 210pts, -1CP] . Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Killa Kan: Big Shoota, Kan Klaw
. Kustom Job: Orkymatic Pistons
Emicrania wrote: Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.
I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.
He conceded T2.
That list is a tournament winner list.
I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:
1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.
It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.
Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.
yeah, basically all this. I prefer getting better at screening rather than having counter assault cause assault is so finnicky on TTS. But so far I've been wailing on people with this list.
A good tau army played moderately competently is completely unbeatable by this kind of army. Just the reality of drones. Even adjusting by taking lootas instead of gitz. Lootas only kill 12 freaking drones. meaning if they have 40 drones they can eat basically 3 turns of loota fire. You cannot take 3 turns of tau fire in response, besides they control the board.
Maybe this is a case where my aversion to assault could be hindering me as maybe Gaz could have an impact on the game where more shooting doesn't.
Also as a follow up, some of the new maps are just straight bonkers LOS blocking so I'll probably have to stop playing the army in its current form. I get people want LOS blocking but hiding 12 smasha guns and a Gorkanaught from LOS from anywhere within 8 inches of my deployment zone is a bit much IMO. The new PTT and WTC maps make any range over 24 inches unlikely to be useful, especially if it's on a slower platform.
Something just occurred to me regarding Ghaz's new rules and the fact that he doesn't affect himself. Remember when his cybernetic skull gave him a headbutt rule? It was something like a separate attack or a few bonus attacks more than usual. Where did that fun little piece of fluff go?
cody.d. wrote: Something just occurred to me regarding Ghaz's new rules and the fact that he doesn't affect himself. Remember when his cybernetic skull gave him a headbutt rule? It was something like a separate attack or a few bonus attacks more than usual. Where did that fun little piece of fluff go?
Probably into his suit to protect his fragile head which was just cut off..
Emicrania wrote: Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.
I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.
He conceded T2.
That list is a tournament winner list.
I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:
1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.
It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.
Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.
yeah, basically all this. I prefer getting better at screening rather than having counter assault cause assault is so finnicky on TTS. But so far I've been wailing on people with this list.
A good tau army played moderately competently is completely unbeatable by this kind of army. Just the reality of drones. Even adjusting by taking lootas instead of gitz. Lootas only kill 12 freaking drones. meaning if they have 40 drones they can eat basically 3 turns of loota fire. You cannot take 3 turns of tau fire in response, besides they control the board.
Maybe this is a case where my aversion to assault could be hindering me as maybe Gaz could have an impact on the game where more shooting doesn't.
Also as a follow up, some of the new maps are just straight bonkers LOS blocking so I'll probably have to stop playing the army in its current form. I get people want LOS blocking but hiding 12 smasha guns and a Gorkanaught from LOS from anywhere within 8 inches of my deployment zone is a bit much IMO. The new PTT and WTC maps make any range over 24 inches unlikely to be useful, especially if it's on a slower platform.
Question: what defines 'moving over a unit' when it comes to dropping bombs from planes? You move the plane forward and if the front of the nose is directly above the enemy unit then it is bombs away?
As Steven pointed out in the art of war podcast, the rules for bombing are so unclear ATM that you should agree with your opponent beforehand on how it works. But basically you move the base up to 90° and anything that get under the base can be bombed. Atm you can also bomb in close combat....
Emicrania wrote: Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.
I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.
He conceded T2.
That list is a tournament winner list.
I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:
1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.
It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.
Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.
yeah, basically all this. I prefer getting better at screening rather than having counter assault cause assault is so finnicky on TTS. But so far I've been wailing on people with this list.
A good tau army played moderately competently is completely unbeatable by this kind of army. Just the reality of drones. Even adjusting by taking lootas instead of gitz. Lootas only kill 12 freaking drones. meaning if they have 40 drones they can eat basically 3 turns of loota fire. You cannot take 3 turns of tau fire in response, besides they control the board.
Maybe this is a case where my aversion to assault could be hindering me as maybe Gaz could have an impact on the game where more shooting doesn't.
Also as a follow up, some of the new maps are just straight bonkers LOS blocking so I'll probably have to stop playing the army in its current form. I get people want LOS blocking but hiding 12 smasha guns and a Gorkanaught from LOS from anywhere within 8 inches of my deployment zone is a bit much IMO. The new PTT and WTC maps make any range over 24 inches unlikely to be useful, especially if it's on a slower platform.
Yeah I saw the maps, that is why I tested Ghaz. I believe taking off 6 gunz and having him instead of the warboss is a good choice. It gives us a lot of room and his 6" aura makes basically all the Grots units benefit from breaking heads. Also he's a great counter punch Vs RG/BA and SW that want to get in your lines and keep the pressure up. He also oneshot centurions, which is great. Also the gunwagon can be freebooterz, which helps with the synergy if the list and we can have 125 Grots on the field.
I dunno if any new rules about terrain or maps are gonna be mainstream any time soon, but until than, this list is the real deal .
Keramory wrote: So I know its been a lockdown for most. Any word on ideal Ghaz tactics? I know he may never be worth it fully, but I want to get the most out of him.
Also saw the open play datasheets. Great, more Goff love. Still no Evil Sunz characters in our codex (and a garbage FW one), but okay. More goff.
Emi seems to have successfully used him in the above ITC list which is a modded Steven Pampreen list.
The bro hammer people have also claimed: “Take a metric ton of Goff boys”.
Not sure much else has been said otherwise. I wonder if he would be good in a kan / mega armour spam list too.
The old rule of thumb was "30 boys per 500 pts of the game", which would be 120 at 2000 which is, I dare say, a matric ton of boys.
INcidently, when facing spammed Tau drones?
The two-drone units need to eat three wound son average to get past the FNP on a 5+++.
To get 3 wounds past their 4+ save, you need to roll 6 wounds.
With a Str 4 Boy, you need to have 12 hits. to roll 6 wounds.
To get 12 hits on a 3+, you need to make 18 attacks.
SO, you need 6 boys to 2 man unit charged, or 4 boys if you have +1 or +2 attacks, in order to inflict efficient damage. Keep an eye on that bit as you can get a little cheeky and try 15 attacks per unit but you'll often fall just a bit short of pushing through.
18 swings per 2 drone unit. Keep that number in your head and you can find a way through the walls.
I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .
Emicrania wrote: I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .
Man I do love Mega Nob models. This was a Goff MANz list?
They really need to get cheaper, though. I’d love they could play like aggressors, or finally get properly valued. 35 PPM is just too much. Aggressors get 19 shots on average if they shoot twice, have 1 more attack, and hit most of those shots for 2 more points :/
Man i love them so much... But they just don't perform as I wish they would. Boosting them to T5 would be enough for me.
I played ES and it was a mistake, IMHO
Emicrania wrote: I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .
Man I do love Mega Nob models. This was a Goff MANz list?
They really need to get cheaper, though. I’d love they could play like aggressors, or finally get properly valued. 35 PPM is just too much. Aggressors get 19 shots on average if they shoot twice, have 1 more attack, and hit most of those shots for 2 more points :/
Yeah, they're on the cusp of being right there on the edge of competitive. Literally their main draw is that they're a headache to get off an objective once they're on it, especially if there's cover they can use. If they get cheap enough, OR they get tougher/killier, it would push them to be used more often. The new tin 'eads and MANZ stratagem definitely help, but having them baseline either do more damage with their PK/Killsaws, or have that defensive boost from being T5 would be great.
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Emicrania wrote: Man i love them so much... But they just don't perform as I wish they would. Boosting them to T5 would be enough for me.
I played ES and it was a mistake, IMHO
What part of making them ES was wrong? I figured the extra inch for both movement and charging would make a decisive difference. The main draw of taking them as Goffs is taking advantage of Ghaz's reroll 1's to hit aura and the exploding 6's, which admittedly makes them more killy, but it seems getting them into combat seems the main focus.
As you said they are the verge of being great, something is missing. That something is that they are terminator slow with one W more abd boyz T. Specifically on that match up Vs BA and any other similar aggressive lists, is that they will push you in your deployment zone and having almost 200 bodies on the board, means that extra speed is not gonna make a difference. You are swamped in your deployment and you can just counter charge, which is never a good things, since you want to be the one dictating the initiative . Jumping 9/10 MANz and hoping to get the charge in, IMHO, is never a good strategy, since you risk having 350 points stranded somewhere, risking to get shot to bits. I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm
Emicrania wrote: I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm
I would agree with "they shouldn't be Aggressor strong" if Ravenguard didn't exist. Those chonky, slow boys seem borderline stupid in cost once they get cheap infiltration. Even Ultramarine Aggressors seem crazy fun to play as you can move them and shoot twice.
You're not taking KFFs right now until the FAQ, right? Why don't you just pay the extra 20 or ignore the melee invul for now? Sure your opponent won't care if you take a penalty if you wanna field them like a normal KFF in a TTS game.
My experience has been similar regarding Jumping MANz, though. 350 points is just crazy to throw at the enemy if you aren't certain it'll collapse their line / kill something really important. I've done that, had them not do as well as I thought because of Eldar negative hit fuckery, then promptly die on the spot from the counter charge and smite.
I wonder if you just accept they aren't a "Da Jump -> charge" style unit, that ES is simply the less interesting choice. As objective campers they seem amazing, and you can easily get them into position with Da Jump or slogging them into the middle.
DS gives you obsec which can be a HUGE bonus, as a single little grot strung up can't take the objective off of you now. Bad Moons new psychic power can give you a 1+ armour save. Tin Heads are much, much more efficient per model. 6 MANz + bonebreaker is ~370 points, and those 6 MANz hit 12 times vs 15 for a full 10 man ES squad. I feel like the bonebreaker + MANz gives you more options generally too, as you can always tellyporta -> ramming speed for the deep strike strat, a Forktress Breaker can easily start on the board, and 6 MANz with a 3+ to hit is not that different from 10 MANz with a 4+ to hit. Just gotta justify Tin Heads as a detachment.
I’m secretly hoping the KFF change is for all versions and all of a sudden a big Mek in mega armor w kff and the kleverest boss becomes a beast character.
The wazbom blastjet becomes even better
And Meka dread and Morkanaut becomes a bit better Point efficiency wise.
Also where is a good place to order models online with a discount that actually has an inventory In the US ... minature market seems to be running dry on a lot of models.
As weird as it would be for the KFF to become Klan-racist all of a sudden, I feel like it would definitely be worth the trade off to have a KFF that works in CC across the board. Frankly, I always felt that it should have given an invuln. in CC anyways to begin with. It always seemed weird that stuff like Azrael's Lion Helm and other things like the Dark Apostle's prayer gave it for both CC and shooting, but the KFF was very specifically not.
Emicrania wrote: I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm
I would agree with "they shouldn't be Aggressor strong" if Ravenguard didn't exist. Those chonky, slow boys seem borderline stupid in cost once they get cheap infiltration. Even Ultramarine Aggressors seem crazy fun to play as you can move them and shoot twice.
You're not taking KFFs right now until the FAQ, right? Why don't you just pay the extra 20 or ignore the melee invul for now? Sure your opponent won't care if you take a penalty if you wanna field them like a normal KFF in a TTS game.
My experience has been similar regarding Jumping MANz, though. 350 points is just crazy to throw at the enemy if you aren't certain it'll collapse their line / kill something really important. I've done that, had them not do as well as I thought because of Eldar negative hit fuckery, then promptly die on the spot from the counter charge and smite.
I wonder if you just accept they aren't a "Da Jump -> charge" style unit, that ES is simply the less interesting choice. As objective campers they seem amazing, and you can easily get them into position with Da Jump or slogging them into the middle.
DS gives you obsec which can be a HUGE bonus, as a single little grot strung up can't take the objective off of you now. Bad Moons new psychic power can give you a 1+ armour save. Tin Heads are much, much more efficient per model. 6 MANz + bonebreaker is ~370 points, and those 6 MANz hit 12 times vs 15 for a full 10 man ES squad. I feel like the bonebreaker + MANz gives you more options generally too, as you can always tellyporta -> ramming speed for the deep strike strat, a Forktress Breaker can easily start on the board, and 6 MANz with a 3+ to hit is not that different from 10 MANz with a 4+ to hit. Just gotta justify Tin Heads as a detachment.
I usually play stuff that doesn't need a FAQ, so I don't waste weeks on a tactic that might not v.be viable next week. Tin heads is great, but at this point I would go with a all in 1000 points of 20 MANz and Ghaz + Grots and the rest just shooting
I won two games friday evening and sunday against Tau friday and Eldar CW sunday.
Against Tau (FE, and a pretty decent pkayer, though like me out of practice because of covid) I won the roll and went first, which was fortunate as he kept half his army in reserve, 9 vet crisis suits and 2 commanders and a squad of 7 shield drones).
My list revolved around two gorkanauts with the 2 shooty kkustom jobs + 2 burna bommers, which I hoped would be good for clearing shield drones. Turns out Gorkas are good enough, but shield drones are so tanky that you don't get to kill that many.
But with the help of the burnas suiciding into the drones (those keeping out of sight, and i was lucky he missed nearly all his feel no pain rolls against my MW) managed to kill most of the drone and downed his ion relic riptide turn 2 (turn 1 he failed to kill anything with it). I had 8 smashas and 3 SAG (inc the SSAG, though it was bad moon, same as the gorks) so The Riptide was most def going to die when it was down to 3 shield drones.
Anyway burnas and gorkanauts are a very good way to clear shield drones, and smashas + SAGs take the rest down fairly easy. I guess Lootas with a metric ton of grots are still the best tool, but Lootas dont handle well new line of sight blocking terrain heavy tables.
Saga makes me feel like we gained a lot of tools to deal with Tau, but if tau goes first... Perhaps we still get wrecked. I think that game would have been twice as difficult if he had gone first.
I'll debrief later on the game CW, but it was not a very comp game (I played without any SAG on purpose), so it may not be very relevant for those who wish to read feedback on comp games.
I've been trying to not use a SAG, nobody in my area plays hyper competitive and that thing tends to win games on its own since people dont know how to deal with it without going through my entire army first. Especially after one game where i faced primaris marines with 4 grav vehicles of varied types. T1, i go first, killed the 2 shooty ones. T2, i killed the third shooty one and managed to Mortal Wound to death the 4++ transport. Unbelievably lucky yes but also he had absolutely no counter to it. Game was over by that point as my boyz were pounding his primaris already too. Board had a fair bit of LoS blocking but not enough where i couldnt just...move the SSAG and be able to hit them anyway via Moar Dakka. Transport tried to go for an objective which cause it to become visible.
Its randomness keeps it in check sometimes but other times...good god it kills half an army itself lol. I kinda wish it kept its Snake Eyes cause self damage, it has no drastic drawback other than just its strength was piss this time. Dont even joke about bringing back the massive AoE of "yup my army is gone" though lol
Not to mention i've been messing with Grot Mobz anyway and i really, REALLY want a MegaMek w/ Follow Me Ladz around those grot tanks. Their leadership is abysmal lol.
gungo wrote: I’m secretly hoping the KFF change is for all versions and all of a sudden a big Mek in mega armor w kff and the kleverest boss becomes a beast character.
I hope not. Mixing clans should be encouraged, as Orks have no soup options.
MA Mek is definitely not a beast in combat, though. 4 PK attacks at str 10, hitting on 3's is... the old warboss we all used to rag on. The fact I can take 2 Big Meks for the same price kills it. If it could take 2 Killsaws and get 5 base attacks I think I might be with ya.
Emicrania wrote:
I usually play stuff that doesn't need a FAQ, so I don't waste weeks on a tactic that might not v.be viable next week. Tin heads is great, but at this point I would go with a all in 1000 points of 20 MANz and Ghaz + Grots and the rest just shooting
Gotcha. Big Goff mob. You are pretty sold on Ghaz eh? Centre of the board would be rough with 20 MANz + Ghaz, especially if a painboy was around.
Emicrania wrote: Jumping 9/10 MANz and hoping to get the charge in, IMHO, is never a good strategy, since you risk having 350 points stranded somewhere, risking to get shot to bits. I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines worl
Once I've won a tourney game having forgotten to deep strike a 350 pt manz squad at all. It was a 1k pt game. But the mere possibility of such squad forced my opponent to go super defensive and he simply got outscored by grots
I believe Ghaz, in the right list, in the current meta, is a valid option. In a shooty list is the counterpunch that we need, since he oneshot centurions and mulch thru a 10 man SG like butter. If he could fight twice, it would be ALMOST too much.
Again, I ve yet to find a good list for the MANz heavy, since at least 2 burna bombers are a must, but maybe having 3*6 might also be a valid option... Now that I think about it....
It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.
Tau castles are going to hate us, units of 2 shield drones will just be cleared out unless the tau player gets damn lucky, characters and riptides can't pass off the wounds as well as there's no hit or wound roll, the only unit I think wouldn't be all that bothered would be MSU intercessors. But even they will lose a guy and a half each time.
It will hopefully be good for spreading out units from the stacked bubbles we've been seeing of late. Encourage a more spread out game style if only so the plane shaped foot of gork doesn't stomp most of your characters over 2 turns. (healing abilities notwithstanding.)
cody.d. wrote: It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.
I simply don't get why everybody is getting these amazing results with burna bommers. They're not Aeldari flyers and for them to fly over an enemy unit is difficult without trapping yourself in a corner. Against most armies you cannot afford to move the bommers in a strategic position so that you can drop bombs turn 3.
cody.d. wrote: It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.
I simply don't get why everybody is getting these amazing results with burna bommers. They're not Aeldari flyers and for them to fly over an enemy unit is difficult without trapping yourself in a corner. Against most armies you cannot afford to move the bommers in a strategic position so that you can drop bombs turn 3.
I mean, in general I think the game plan is to shove a bommer in the corner, pass over one infantry unit of some value then place yourself near as many characters as possible then use the flying headbutt stratagem to autoexplode and put 3 mortal wounds on every unit within 6. You lose the bommer but can put reliable mortal wounds pretty much anywhere you want. If you have two bommers you can kill pretty much every annoying support character in the game.
shogun wrote: I simply don't get why everybody is getting these amazing results with burna bommers. They're not Aeldari flyers and for them to fly over an enemy unit is difficult without trapping yourself in a corner. Against most armies you cannot afford to move the bommers in a strategic position so that you can drop bombs turn 3.
Trapping yourself to corner isn't issue when plan is to blow yourself up. Burna bommers got interesting for people with PA6 where they got stratagem to autoxplode. So move in, drop bombs, position into juicy position, go BOOM! Even more mortal wounds around. 6" radius automatic 3 mortal wounds to all units isn't that bad.
cody.d. wrote: It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.
I simply don't get why everybody is getting these amazing resul too early to know how strong this thing really ists with burna bommers. They're not Aeldari flyers and for them to fly over an enemy unit is difficult without trapping yourself in a corner. Against most armies you cannot afford to move the bommers in a strategic position so that you can drop bombs turn 3.
Opponents will adapt, and the 5+++ SM Chaplain litany against MW might mitigate the impact quite a lot
I will be facing a DA thursday, we will see how I can bomb his land speeder castle, and or bomb his scouts. I don't Headbutt will be as effectivecas against the tau player i faced last friday
cody.d. wrote: It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.
I simply don't get why everybody is getting these amazing resul too early to know how strong this thing really ists with burna bommers. They're not Aeldari flyers and for them to fly over an enemy unit is difficult without trapping yourself in a corner. Against most armies you cannot afford to move the bommers in a strategic position so that you can drop bombs turn 3.
Opponents will adapt, and the 5+++ SM Chaplain litany against MW might mitigate the impact quite a lot
I will be facing a DA thursday, we will see how I can bomb his land speeder castle, and or bomb his scouts. I don't Headbutt will be as effectivecas against the tau player i faced last friday
They can choose their litanies based on matchup, right? Cause yeah, that hurts the strat pretty well.
Well, they have to give up another prayer to do so and it is by far not guaranteed to succeed even if the have it. And they still get an average of 2 MW on their units when they do have all of them protected.
My opponents are really struggling with finding a good way to counter the 'eadbut because optimal aura coverage, deep strike screening, holding objectives, spreading out to avoid 'eadbuts and blocking the bommers from dropping bombs on valuable targets are usually things you cannot do all at once unless you are running enough models to just cover your entire deployment zone in them.
Against good players, my burna bommers are very much forcing them to reduce their aura efficiency, as it's the lesser evil compared to having a valuable units bombed or even the 'eadbut hitting four or more units at once.
Gonna be honest. For the price of 2 flyers that feels pretty handy. Means the storm of weaponry coming your way will be markedly less effective. Letting the rest of your army get into position, take objectives etc etc. If it pumps out some mortal wounds or cripples some army matchups then it's a win win.
if people change the way they would normally play... its a win. if they take something specifically to counter your burnas he isnt taking something he would normally use. Deploying differently, acting differently... the burna bomber strat is the best thing in the book.
I'm still waiting for an auto explode strat where things like Khorne Beserkers or Meganobs simply rip and tear their way out of a transport after it moves. Letting them disembark out of sequence and charge at the cost of the vehicle exploding. xP Would be a freaken riot.
cody.d. wrote: I'm still waiting for an auto explode strat where things like Khorne Beserkers or Meganobs simply rip and tear their way out of a transport after it moves. Letting them disembark out of sequence and charge at the cost of the vehicle exploding. xP Would be a freaken riot.
Honestly, I'm baffled that Orks of all factions don't have that sort of stratagem baseline, given how notoriously ramshackle and often dangerous Ork vehicles can be to their occupants, they could even call it "Don't Press Dat!" if they want a call back to the old looted wagon rule.
cody.d. wrote: I'm still waiting for an auto explode strat where things like Khorne Beserkers or Meganobs simply rip and tear their way out of a transport after it moves. Letting them disembark out of sequence and charge at the cost of the vehicle exploding. xP Would be a freaken riot.
Honestly, I'm baffled that Orks of all factions don't have that sort of stratagem baseline, given how notoriously ramshackle and often dangerous Ork vehicles can be to their occupants, they could even call it "Don't Press Dat!" if they want a call back to the old looted wagon rule.
Not just that but being opened topped in the traditional sense. Marines get a vehicle they can jump out of after moving, harlies have a warlord trait that lets you do it. Why don't orks have a stratagem or a rule just for trucks. Remember dawn of war 3 with it's Trukk catapults?
cody.d. wrote: I'm still waiting for an auto explode strat where things like Khorne Beserkers or Meganobs simply rip and tear their way out of a transport after it moves. Letting them disembark out of sequence and charge at the cost of the vehicle exploding. xP Would be a freaken riot.
Honestly, I'm baffled that Orks of all factions don't have that sort of stratagem baseline, given how notoriously ramshackle and often dangerous Ork vehicles can be to their occupants, they could even call it "Don't Press Dat!" if they want a call back to the old looted wagon rule.
I miss 4e Ramshackle sometimes, it was a joy to have a Trukk fly forward into the enemy line before exploding and kill several of the opposing troops... and then still have ~8 Orks survive to lurk in the resulting crater for a charge the next turn.
That was fun, didn't it also count as a ram attack/tank shock if that random scatter put it base contact with a vehicle or a unit of infantry? I remember that being a silly and fun rule when a trukk killed or wounded another truck by cartwheeling into it.
Bugger, this is reminded me how much of the zaney, silly rules have been taken out of 40K. Am a sad ork now.
cody.d. wrote: I'm still waiting for an auto explode strat where things like Khorne Beserkers or Meganobs simply rip and tear their way out of a transport after it moves. Letting them disembark out of sequence and charge at the cost of the vehicle exploding. xP Would be a freaken riot.
Don't count on it. They specifically faq'ed that sort of thing AWAY.
Not just that but being opened topped in the traditional sense. Marines get a vehicle they can jump out of after moving, harlies have a warlord trait that lets you do it. Why don't orks have a stratagem or a rule just for trucks. Remember dawn of war 3 with it's Trukk catapults?
Marine one isn't giving you assaulting though. Not sure how useful ork unit coming out to shoot would be.
You say that like GW has been consistent in any of their rule makings. Yes the Marine one lets you shoot but not charge, it's not outside the scope of imagination that an ork one would let you charge but not shoot.
I would like to see Meganobz getting a strat like that.
Stratagem to instantly destroys the vehicle, exploding on a 4+ and then barreling out of the wreckage for a charge.
On another note, how vital to the kit is the "beer gut" section of a mork/gorkanaut? Is it something that can be left off, or no? I asked in P&M and haven't had any luck.
I hate that they look like they've not been able to keep off the squig ale
Afrodactyl wrote: I would like to see Meganobz getting a strat like that.
Stratagem to instantly destroys the vehicle, exploding on a 4+ and then barreling out of the wreckage for a charge.
On another note, how vital to the kit is the "beer gut" section of a mork/gorkanaut? Is it something that can be left off, or no? I asked in P&M and haven't had any luck.
I hate that they look like they've not been able to keep off the squig ale
The look come mostly from the two doors of the passenger compartment. I guess you could leave them off and model something else in their place.
If you have a spare set of battle wagon treads you can make a very good "Tank" by chopping up the leg pistons into braces. It's how I made my Treadnaught.
Emicrania wrote: I believe Ghaz, in the right list, in the current meta, is a valid option. In a shooty list is the counterpunch that we need, since he oneshot centurions and mulch thru a 10 man SG like butter. If he could fight twice, it would be ALMOST too much.
Again, I ve yet to find a good list for the MANz heavy, since at least 2 burna bombers are a must, but maybe having 3*6 might also be a valid option... Now that I think about it....
Right but if you are running a shooty army and have Ghaz running forward by himself, Leeroy Jenkins style, he won't make it and you are paying a lot of points for what amounts to a distraction carnifex. If you have him hanging back to "counter punch" then you are taking a very expensive unit and relegating it to doing nothing until his units finally get in charge range, and since Ghaz is incredibly slow, it wouldn't be hard to maneuver around him and hit somewhere else. Almost everything Ghaz can do, can be done better and cheaper by other units.
On a different note. If the Goff Rocker wasn't legends/open play only than an argument for the competitiveness of Goffs could be made which would in turn make ghaz slightly less of a useless choice, still better to take 3 fully equipped warbosses than Ghaz.
Hey friends, been way from Warhammer for a little while and want to return to my greenskins. Was wandering if the Bonebreaka is any good with the new Kustom Jobs. Having trouble deciding between the better save/invuln or the flat 6 extra hits on the charge. I’m leaning more towards durability though since if it dies it won’t make use of the extra attacks anyway.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, been way from Warhammer for a little while and want to return to my greenskins. Was wandering if the Bonebreaka is any good with the new Kustom Jobs. Having trouble deciding between the better save/invuln or the flat 6 extra hits on the charge. I’m leaning more towards durability though since if it dies it won’t make use of the extra attacks anyway.
I'd definitely go Forktress.
Vehicles that get an invul save do a lot better than those that don't.
Second the forktress. Number of hits has never been the problem with bonebreakas for me, it's always taking to much damage from massed attacks or powerfists which negates them. Forktress helps with both.
Goffs is da Best: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by models in friendly GOFF ORK units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
BUT he also have
Grand Warboss: This model can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units from that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur. Note, however, that this model does not benefit from any Clan Kultur unless the Clan Kultur selected for that Detachment is the Goffs Clan Kultur.
Does this means he can do as badrukk and FlashGits does or he eat his shorts in another thing?
Bonebreaka only having a 4+ save normally is its main downfall. It tends to butcher whatever it slams into, problem is whatever comes up to it after it slammed something just pounds it w/o even trying. Forktress is probably the only BW kustom job worth using imo. As we've already seen, Da Booma isnt even that great (i blame lack of proper side weapons, as imperial tanks usually tote lascannons and/or heavy bolters x2-3 on top of the big gun)
Also, the flat6 is still only when IT charges, and in my experience (i run bonebreakas alot with just random slugga boyz inside, cheap T8 profile) it almost never gets to charge more than once as people will be dogpiling it to keep it from charging again, if they didnt outright kill it.
i still find it odd imo that 'ard case doesnt give it +1 save. Because it legit is a laughably cheap T8 profile, just doesnt mean much when the only weapons that actually hurt it 100% wipe the save away in the process.
Goffs is da Best: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by models in friendly GOFF ORK units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
BUT he also have
Grand Warboss: This model can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units from that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur. Note, however, that this model does not benefit from any Clan Kultur unless the Clan Kultur selected for that Detachment is the Goffs Clan Kultur.
Does this means he can do as badrukk and FlashGits does or he eat his shorts in another thing?
Does he eat his shorts? what do you mean?
What I would imagine is this:
As the only Goff in a detachment with non-Goffs (or FGs), he does not get exploding 6's. That's the only negative for him being in a non-Goff detachment, otherwise he gets everything else
Goffs is da Best: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by models in friendly GOFF ORK units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.
BUT he also have
Grand Warboss: This model can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units from that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur. Note, however, that this model does not benefit from any Clan Kultur unless the Clan Kultur selected for that Detachment is the Goffs Clan Kultur.
Does this means he can do as badrukk and FlashGits does or he eat his shorts in another thing?
I'm not sure what you are asking here, but yes he works exactly as Badrukk does.
Keep in mind that GOFF is not the culture, but a keyword and he will always be a GOFF ORK, even if the rest of the detachment is BAD MOONS and benefiting from the "Armed to da Teef" culture.
The keyword itself (e.g. Goff)
The Kulture associated with the keyword (e.g. the exploding 6s in melee)
The keyword remains, its what defines what kind of ork he is. Anything looking for that keyword (e.g. the new spells, new KFF, breakin' heads aura) will be looking for Goff if it affects him, so he benefits from his reroll 1s in melee regardless as he is always a Goff.
The Kulture is stripped unless the detachment is Goff because the rule that allows him to come in w/o messing things up for everybody else says so. Thus, he does not get exploding 6s in melee, nor does he get whatever that detachment normally has.
Exploding 6s going away to bring him in a non-goff detachment is a bit of a letdown but in the end its not really that big a deal. Biggest issue is you cant have a painboy "Mediqsuig" him unless said painboy is Goff, as that stratagem is klan locked (looking for the Keyword, not the kulture). Really the only things he isnt going to pulverize with his base profile is REALLY big things, 3+ invul on top of good FNP, or numbers. All of which the extra 1-2 hits would help of course, but only the numbers bit is a potential reality for him.
You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.
The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)
imo, havnt actually played with him yet but just observation, if you arent gonna use a painboy to heal him you should just DS him.
If i were facing him and he was footslogging i'd pop a random big gun in his face with each unit until i did 3-4 damage, and then ignore him. Unless he 4++'d everything, he's gonna be nearly dead by the time he sees combat w/o the heals.
And i dont feel bad allocating 1 of my several KMB/Rokkit level weapons at him whenever a unit htat has 1 fires. I wont overkill him at that point and waste damage as once ive done any damage i'd stop doing that this round.
tulun wrote: You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.
The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)
Not a whole lot of armies have the utility to burst him down in turn 1.
tulun wrote: You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.
The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)
Not a whole lot of armies have the utility to burst him down in turn 1.
Smite, shoot, charge is not *crazy* for certain meta armies right now, I think (GK, Eldar, Chaos, SM?).
I can't speak from experience unfortunately. That Goff painboy really is a kick in the balls, though. You basically waste a detachment just to take it, and even if you mix clan, the other stuff doesn't get clan bonuses.
I actually wonder if it's even intentional. Medisquig right now is a bit nonsensical with what it can target. Technically, it can heal a Stompa, as those can become characters. I wouldn't be surprised if it was removed as an option for Ghaz, as they might consider him "too tanky" with d3 extra wounds a turn.
You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.
Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.
The keyword itself (e.g. Goff)
The Kulture associated with the keyword (e.g. the exploding 6s in melee)
The keyword remains, its what defines what kind of ork he is. Anything looking for that keyword (e.g. the new spells, new KFF, breakin' heads aura) will be looking for Goff if it affects him, so he benefits from his reroll 1s in melee regardless as he is always a Goff.
The Kulture is stripped unless the detachment is Goff because the rule that allows him to come in w/o messing things up for everybody else says so. Thus, he does not get exploding 6s in melee, nor does he get whatever that detachment normally has.
Exploding 6s going away to bring him in a non-goff detachment is a bit of a letdown but in the end its not really that big a deal. Biggest issue is you cant have a painboy "Mediqsuig" him unless said painboy is Goff, as that stratagem is klan locked (looking for the Keyword, not the kulture). Really the only things he isnt going to pulverize with his base profile is REALLY big things, 3+ invul on top of good FNP, or numbers. All of which the extra 1-2 hits would help of course, but only the numbers bit is a potential reality for him.
I am still waiting for the Saga of the beast FAQ but a Da boomer gunwagon + pyroscope + visions in the smoke could be really nasty
SemperMortis wrote: You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.
Orks are probably one of the worst matchups for Ghaz. He wants to punch high value, expensive targets -- expensive vehicles, Aggressors / Assault Cents, etc, etc. Orks don't really present many of those typically, and even if they do, we can easily screen him out.
Don't forget Flying 'Eadbutt does Mortal Wounds in the movement phase, too. Hell, soften him up a little and a 30 man boy squad w/ a PK/ Kill Saw nob might clear him up in a couple rounds. Bonus points if you give them a melee invul w/ a KFF and a painboy just to make him laughably inept.
to be fair, that triple scrapjet ram + shooting (since if you can charge him with 3 big phat bases, hes not blocked by anything and can be shot) + the charge attacks would kill nearly any character, not just ghaz. 3 scrapjets is one hell of a footprint, since they cant do the "within 1 of a model in this unit thats within 1 of the enemy" shenanigans as individual models (remember they split once deployed)
Most characters once they reach melee ranges are not that hard to get rid of, mostly because it becomes super easy to get around the character protection when theyre trying to swing and cant have a 5-model thick wall in front of them anymore in order to do so. My friend recently picked up Abbadon and the INSTANT that guy wasnt blocked by 10+ plague marines and whatever else was there he went poof to my KMB's in an instant. Abbadon may not have the 4max per phase rule, but he doesnt have much more than that to begin with.
Ghaz's problem is he's gonna be half dead or worse by the time that point shows up. You dont even NEED to kill him in 1 turn because its super easy to just reduce him to just as "difficult" to kill as any 2+ character is before he gets to do anything.
Thank you for the clarification, I wrote a quick one at work and wasn't that clear
People tend to forget that smite only affect the closest visible unit and when you play 100+ Grots, IF Ghaz is the closest , than you are doing something very very wrong.
Beside GK, tzeench soups and maybe eldar council, I can't really see anybody having a chance to oneshot ghaz. AND those who does that, they will be left stranded exactly where you want em. In the middle of the board. Your opponent cannot shoot and be in cover, as smite and be hidden. They need to come out and play to take him out, and he's the best piñata to focus since he's a monster, but than again, now they are not shooting our gunz and veichle and they are out there getting dakka like Xmas
i mentioned that to my 1K sons friend when he said he'll just smite, shoot, and punch ghaz to dead in 1 turn. VERY few psychic powers that does damage doesnt target the closest model, and usually when it can target anything it doesnt do much damage and/or is REALLY difficult to pull off. If Ghaz is getting smited, i got a bigger problem.
Vineheart01 wrote: i mentioned that to my 1K sons friend when he said he'll just smite, shoot, and punch ghaz to dead in 1 turn.
VERY few psychic powers that does damage doesnt target the closest model, and usually when it can target anything it doesnt do much damage and/or is REALLY difficult to pull off.
If Ghaz is getting smited, i got a bigger problem.
Of course, even being hard to kill, that doesn't make him GOOD.
Emicrania wrote: Thank you for the clarification, I wrote a quick one at work and wasn't that clear
People tend to forget that smite only affect the closest visible unit and when you play 100+ Grots, IF Ghaz is the closest , than you are doing something very very wrong.
Beside GK, tzeench soups and maybe eldar council, I can't really see anybody having a chance to oneshot ghaz. AND those who does that, they will be left stranded exactly where you want em. In the middle of the board. Your opponent cannot shoot and be in cover, as smite and be hidden. They need to come out and play to take him out, and he's the best piñata to focus since he's a monster, but than again, now they are not shooting our gunz and veichle and they are out there getting dakka like Xmas
You have used him largely as a counter charger, right? What about in games where the enemy isn't super interested in getting close?
Seems a bit pricey if he's just standing there breakin' some grot heads. It's not like he's doing damage if he's not in CC, and if you have to push him forward, that's where he might be getting exposed for getting jumped.
I dunno, Ghaz costs a lot and does 3 things really. Is somewhat tough, is decently killy and is decently buffy with the right units around him. To really get his value you sort of need a lot of models running along side him otherwise you will indeed get more from a no-name warboss with the right buffs. I'm working with the idea of a lot of boy and an entourage of characters and maybe a nob unit just to be fluffy and cut down on model count. Yes a boy unit will kill most things it touches with all the buffs on it, but you can also mangle several units if the movement goes your way and that may be more valuable in a fair few matchups (fly and fallback abilities aside)
So I stumbled on now owning 10 Meganobz and 15Nobz. Was thinking of doing an elite heavy list, with Ghaz. I don't expect much, but at least with Orks it'll be different every game.
Thanks guys, for the replies about the Forktress on Bonebreaka, I was leaning that way and totally agree with the reasoning.
I’m considering chucking my Weirdboy in there with a group of MANz, charging it up the board, then teleporting Ghaz next to them after they bale. Can then cast Fists of Gork on Ghaz, and he can then even take on units rather than just vehicles, or peeps with invuln saves. And also has the MANz to back him up. The only problem here is I won’t be able to Da Jump my big block of Boyz up there with him, not really sure about that, since my other leader I just managed to squeeze in is a Big Mek w/ KFF to protect the Mek Gunz.
What do you guys think?
Tiberius501 wrote: Thanks guys, for the replies about the Forktress on Bonebreaka, I was leaning that way and totally agree with the reasoning.
I’m considering chucking my Weirdboy in there with a group of MANz, charging it up the board, then teleporting Ghaz next to them after they bale. Can then cast Fists of Gork on Ghaz, and he can then even take on units rather than just vehicles, or peeps with invuln saves. And also has the MANz to back him up. The only problem here is I won’t be able to Da Jump my big block of Boyz up there with him, not really sure about that, since my other leader I just managed to squeeze in is a Big Mek w/ KFF to protect the Mek Gunz.
What do you guys think?
The issue with that is that is that Ghaz isn't really adding much that a biggest boss warboss isn't already doing for fewer points. And doing it this way you can then da jump some boys in as well for more support.
SemperMortis wrote: You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.
Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.
So that's more points than ghaz, sometimes you go second and wil' lose some of those, you still need to clear chaff(3 scrapjets won'' clear 20-30 gretchin or unit of boyz in a hurry), get charges which isn't quaranteed with 3 units with huge footprints(especially if you didn't clear chaff) and even if you succeed in killing sub 300 pts model you have 3 scrapjet costing about that out there and dead. And he can intercept and kill 2 scrapjets after 1st has attacked if he's worried.
You are investing more points, not quaranteed and lose your scrapjets. Ghaz would be silly broken if superior amount of points wouldnt at least worry him
Oh and how you calculated average damage? If it was the usual shots x odds of hit x odds of wounding etc that leaves flawed result as that assumes no overkill and good rolls average bad rolls whicb with ghaz doesn't work. 8 damage does not average 0 damage. I ran into this with pylon vs baneblade. Above formula gives 31 damage. 24w target so near sure death? No. 57.72% odds of one shotting and true average around 19 damage. Big difference. Ghaz is basically 4w model for calculations so any damage over 4 wasted and won't balance under 4 rolls
(nevermind literally nothing can average exactly 4 wounds unless it auto hits, auto wounds and automatically goes past save. Even warlord titan averages less than 4 wounds though albeit here we are talking very tiny decimals under 4 wounds )
The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.
To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.
SemperMortis wrote: The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.
To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.
Well, Emi has stated he's had some success with Ghaz, so there is some evidence to the contrary.
It seems clear he's a really, really good countercharger -- he basically hard counters assault centurions and their ilk, which are busted. And because his morale aura isn't <CLAN> locked, he does help keep all your gak around.
If you keep him back in your zone / the midfield and properly screen him, he should probably be relatively easy to keep alive, especially with a painboy.
The problem I see is how do you use him in other matchups where he needs to be aggressive? Because then those problems you point out become an issue. And he's a lot of points to NOT be throwing at your enemy.
Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.
This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.
Does anyone think we are getting any previews Saturday? I don’t recall any rumors of any additional models coming soon however there was a GW guess the picture post we kinda felt could be a big Mek Weapon.
gungo wrote: Does anyone think we are getting any previews Saturday? I don’t recall any rumors of any additional models coming soon however there was a GW guess the picture post we kinda felt could be a big Mek Weapon.
There are two rumor engines that can reliably be assumed to be Ork models: a boot on top of an ammo case with the familiar dagz/teef bits bolted onto the toe, and a saw that is a dead ringer for a Deff Dread saw, except attached to some sort of polearm.
As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:
Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks
…
Ouch.
I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.
SemperMortis wrote: The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.
To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.
Well, Emi has stated he's had some success with Ghaz, so there is some evidence to the contrary.
It seems clear he's a really, really good countercharger -- he basically hard counters assault centurions and their ilk, which are busted. And because his morale aura isn't <CLAN> locked, he does help keep all your gak around.
If you keep him back in your zone / the midfield and properly screen him, he should probably be relatively easy to keep alive, especially with a painboy.
The problem I see is how do you use him in other matchups where he needs to be aggressive? Because then those problems you point out become an issue. And he's a lot of points to NOT be throwing at your enemy.
I agree, I can see how he helps in the current top table meta, but when you are facing an army that just wants to keep away from you and shoot like sisters, necrons or tau? Haven't had a chance to play him yet, so still reserving judgement.
With the exception of space marines most true gunline armies may be hard pressed to deal damage to him outside the shooting phase. Tau, IG, Necrons, don't have a ton of psychic or melee.
I find it difficult to work him into lists thus far, but I would likely keep him in the tellyporta till needed. Even if that's to camp a far off objective, he presents a natural immunity to being shot off the board, and has a smaller footpront than 30 boyz, so is easier to place when deep striking.
SemperMortis wrote: Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.
This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.
Well on any decent board he will have easy time hiding out of LOS if you aren't rushing forward at full speed. And if he's being used as counter charge that indicates that opponent, not you, is the one doing the moving forward so ghaz has less incentive to hop out of LOS.
Similar to my sister penitent engines. Stay out of LOS, then come forward when enemy comes forth. And those are harder to hide(3-4 models only slightly smaller vs 1 model).
SemperMortis wrote: Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.
This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.
Well on any decent board he will have easy time hiding out of LOS if you aren't rushing forward at full speed. And if he's being used as counter charge that indicates that opponent, not you, is the one doing the moving forward so ghaz has less incentive to hop out of LOS.
Similar to my sister penitent engines. Stay out of LOS, then come forward when enemy comes forth. And those are harder to hide(3-4 models only slightly smaller vs 1 model).
The issue with that is that you're leaving near 300 points sitting about doing nothing, hoping that the enemy will get close enough for Ghaz to charge them. And while he's sitting about, he isn't buffing the units that you want to be throwing into your opponents face.
Personally I would want Ghaz to be earning his points back as early as possible, so that I can get a points advantage and try to punish the opponent once I'm up. I would want him in the enemy's face, buffing things in combat and making the most of those high strength and damage attacks.
But that's me. As we've already said, time will tell whether Ghaz is a competitive choice or not.
weaver9 wrote: With the exception of space marines most true gunline armies may be hard pressed to deal damage to him outside the shooting phase. Tau, IG, Necrons, don't have a ton of psychic or melee.
First of all they can just gun them down over the course of three shooting phases, that's how long he needs to reach combat if barreling forward at full speed.
That aside, neither tau nor IG nor necrons have trouble adding a second phase of damage, if not a third. Both tau and guard can throw down some pretty mean overwatch in the charge phase, necrons get C'Tan powers in the movement phase, both necrons and IG have some heavy counter-charge units themselves, and IG is regularly seen bringing primaris psykers or inquisitors. Not to mention all the odd abilities and stratagems that deal mortal wounds at odd times, like that kroot tracker, Immothekh's lightning or
But that wasn't really my point. He is a hard counter to melee alpha-strikes, which is something certain armies rely heavily on right now.
The armies I mentioned sit on their side of the table and will protect anything valuable from deep strikes, while not getting close enough for a counter-charge unit to have any effect. To get anything out of Thrakka against these armies you need to deep strike him or charge towards that army. Which basically means that you won't be getting anything worth your points.
I find it difficult to work him into lists thus far, but I would likely keep him in the tellyporta till needed. Even if that's to camp a far off objective, he presents a natural immunity to being shot off the board, and has a smaller footpront than 30 boyz, so is easier to place when deep striking.
I really don't think that's worth 285 points. MANz can to the same for much cheaper.
For me it works very good ATM because it allows me to have 125 fearless grots that run forward and takes the board.
That is backed by massive firepower and 2 bomber and a DJ that forces my opponent to do 2 things, either be out of LoS and let me take total control of the board , or come at me and munch thru 120 fearless bodies, needing to take him down before arriving to my gunline. Most of the time he sits and just treath to punch you, which is fine by me. I Can easily win by hold, hold more, bonus, board control secondaries, without needing to kill anything .
Last game I had my opponent caged up in a enclosed ruin for 4 turns in order to screen his carcathers and elite infantry. By T5 I was so much in advantage with points that didn't matter he came out and killed 5 units per turn.
Patience and control are more important than shoot an chop up stuff, especially in ITC and WTC ATM.
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.
Usually what kills grots vaporize Vs SSAG, Flashgitz, Smashaguns and gunwagon (mine works good Jid ). So when I do lose 30-40 grots in a turn, I retaliate hard, so is always a tricky choice since I can break heads of everything on 6" range AND I will always save 1 grot for 2 CP and deny kill more.
Eh, my SSAG also took six games to kill its first model. But then it one-shot a stormhawk and a predator in one turn
Will keep trying to make them work anyways, the battlewagon model was one of my reasons to start playing 40k in the first place.
About the gretchin - yeah, that makes sense. My lists have absolutely no infantry otherwise, so naturally people would rather shoot gretchin than maybe plonk a wound off a buggy.
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.
You’re doing Gorks ( or Morks) work!
How have you dealt with something like the tau matchup fielding that list? Just take the centre and try to out score them on primaries?
Wakshaani wrote: As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:
Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks
…
Ouch.
I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.
For real? Orks are an expensive army to begin with, making the core parts of the army more expensive is just going to make it even more of a pain for both expanding lists and newer guys to get into da WAAAGH!.
I feel like of all things, GW should try to keep the core essentials (HQ, Troops), relatively low to keep the barrier of entry more palatable. Especially for non-elite armies like Orks where you already need multiple boxes to even consider playing them. Otherwise it's lost money to the second-hand market like eBay.
Wakshaani wrote: As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:
Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks
…
Ouch.
I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.
For real? Orks are an expensive army to begin with, making the core parts of the army more expensive is just going to make it even more of a pain for both expanding lists and newer guys to get into da WAAAGH!.
I feel like of all things, GW should try to keep the core essentials (HQ, Troops), relatively low to keep the barrier of entry more palatable. Especially for non-elite armies like Orks where you already need multiple boxes to even consider playing them. Otherwise it's lost money to the second-hand market like eBay.
For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.
Gotta double down on that investment they made with that mold I guess. It's really bizarre how crucial faction-specific terrain is atm for AoS, while in 40K it's a complete crapshoot.
I was a little behind with some of the discussion regarding Ghaz, but besides being obviously suboptimal, is the final consensus that he's best taken in mixed Klan list then? Or is it worth it going mainly Goffs with him?
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.
You’re doing Gorks ( or Morks) work!
How have you dealt with something like the tau matchup fielding that list? Just take the centre and try to out score them on primaries?
Not yet, but the new Harlequins are gonna be the bane of this list, they just have too much mobility and screening right is just an absolute must.
If Tau comes in with multiple 2 man drone unit, he better get first turn or i´ll wipe him out with the bombers. If he goes first AND he has 3x8 drones or something like that, is gonna be an interesting match for sure!
Wakshaani wrote: For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.
Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.
Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.
Not yet, but the new Harlequins are gonna be the bane of this list, they just have too much mobility and screening right is just an absolute must.
If Tau comes in with multiple 2 man drone unit, he better get first turn or i´ll wipe him out with the bombers. If he goes first AND he has 3x8 drones or something like that, is gonna be an interesting match for sure!
Let us know if you encounter the matchup, it'll be interesting to hear. I'd love to field Ghaz unironically if I'm gonna take a billion years to paint him.
That Harlequin army looks crazy in a battle rep I watched a bit of. Charged from like 36" away without breaking a sweat.
I'm basically playing mono army right now, but I have a bunch of 3rd/4th edition Eldar and Nids in storage. Not gonna lie... Playing a harlequin style list on a bunch of jetbikes makes me wanna pick up Eldar again. That looks incredibly fun to play. I love extremely mobile armies (which Nids, Eldar, and Orks were back then), although 8th edition is far less static than when I played in my hayday.
SemperMortis wrote: You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.
Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.
If his wounds jumped to 16 or his ability changed to 3 wounds a phase. how do you think it would change things? makes it 4 total phases to have to take damage in.
Wakshaani wrote: For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.
Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.
Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.
Nah, the only change to the plastic boyz box was that they added in the nob sprue, but that was before I started playing.
Wakshaani wrote: For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.
Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.
Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.
Nah, the only change to the plastic boyz box was that they added in the nob sprue, but that was before I started playing.
Did some online perusing and it seems like it was indeed 16 boyz a box at the time, but without the Nob sprue you mentioned. So pretty much you lost 6 boyz for a Nob. Obviously, this was before the plastic Nob kit was released and so there was only the metals, so I'm sure most players at the time liked that there was an inbuilt Nob in the kit. Definitely feel like they should do a bulk deal though for boyz, where you can get a snap fit one from the AoBR set with 20 slugga boyz for about the current cost of the plastic Boyz box. That way you can choose filler versus options, and it doesn't invalidate the core kit.
Note that I started playing orks roughly ten years ago, and I've never seen that box. I have never bought a box of boyz without nob+heavy weapon in it. AFAIK the current boyz sculpt goes all the way back to 2003, and that box even has the old trukk on it.
The two boxes that would build into my first mob of shoota boyz ever have cost me 12.50€ at wayland games, with the next increase boyz will be 25€ at their store.
Wakshaani wrote: For real, yeah. It's about a 10% boost in cost in each, so not, you know, life-ending, but still a kick in the pants.
Actually, with this raise, ork boyz are now over 100% more expensive than when I bought my first box - the exact same one you can buy today.
Yikes! Didn't the boyz box used to have 20 (or 16? Can't remember) boyz a box back then? I remember them being similar to Cadians before they got reboxed/recut to only have half the sprues. I guess they're almost as bad a value as Dire Avengers became when they got reboxed.
I remember buying that box way back when. 16 orks for £18, and then driving through the clamshells of ork nobs until you found one with a power klaw and the gun you wanted. £24 for most of a mob of boys. And I could give my lootas pulse rifles and lascannons and field a looted monolith because the rules were mental. Truly the best time to be in the hobby.
This one, most tellingly, dropped the count down to just 16 Boyz in a box. The plastic-metal hybrid kits for 'Ard Boyz, Stormboyz, and Stikkbombz were 8 models... I have a box of 'Ard and Stikk still in the garage, but I never grabbed the Stormboyz.
They got a facelift a bit later, when all the box art got updated.
Now, I can't find any mention of it being sold as just a ten-model box, sans the command sprue with heavy weapon and Nob... all of mine, no matter how far back I go in the garage have 'em … but there were some years there (see Gorka above) when I wasn't active in the hobby so it could have happened … I dunno. Not like GW to re-release a box with a new addition, but, well, Razorback, so it isn't impossible.
Anywho, we're on Gen 3 boys at this stage (Gorka is, like, 2.5, a mutant deviation that was left to die while the stronger line moved forward) and they're tres keen, but with a new set roughly once a decade, we're a year or two away from maybe getting a new one.
Emicrania wrote: For me it works very good ATM because it allows me to have 125 fearless grots that run forward and takes the board.
That is backed by massive firepower and 2 bomber and a DJ that forces my opponent to do 2 things, either be out of LoS and let me take total control of the board , or come at me and munch thru 120 fearless bodies, needing to take him down before arriving to my gunline. Most of the time he sits and just treath to punch you, which is fine by me. I Can easily win by hold, hold more, bonus, board control secondaries, without needing to kill anything .
Last game I had my opponent caged up in a enclosed ruin for 4 turns in order to screen his carcathers and elite infantry. By T5 I was so much in advantage with points that didn't matter he came out and killed 5 units per turn.
Patience and control are more important than shoot an chop up stuff, especially in ITC and WTC ATM.
I'll try him out tomorrow Vs 2 hard lists with inquisition souped with as mech Vs one of the top 10 in Sweden and 5-1 LVO player and Vs another hard core meta chaser with RG. I'll let you guys know.
Nice! Would like to know the how it works out. I'am stil a bit sceptical about the armylist setup but also finding it intriguing.
I think that Astra militarum with tank commanders, (chaos) knights and Aeldari skimmers / flyers with vibro cannons could still take you down. You do well against marines and that could take you far but in the end you lack anti-vehicle shooting. After you dropped the bombs you also lack anti-infantry shooting because the fragile planes can drop fast.
I really hope I'am wrong about this.. orks need a win...
The best way to deal with the price increase is buy a GW shares instead. They do it well from business side of view. Profit on their shares reduce the pain from this piece of plastic price.
Hi, im fairly new to orks. I only have 30 boys and the prophecy of the wolf box. Which units shall i buy next? Multiple 30 boys squats aren't that popular atm. I will buy a big mek with shock attack gun and some grots soon.
I reallt like evil sunz or bad moonz but deathskulls looking good too.
Can't go wrong with a SAG and gretchin really. You should look into getting three units of troops first so you can build a functional army, Thrakka and Makari can be your HQs for the first few games. Adding another box of MANz would also allow you to field a unit of 5 and build big mek. And there is the option to get a box of flash gits to combine them with the nobz you have into a unit of 10 gits - the bodies are the same and the flash gits box has enough bits to turn nobz with kustom weapons into flash gits as well.
What kind of games are you going to play? Competitive play in a league or tournament or more casual play among friends?
Are there some units or a certain play style which has already caught your eye that you want to play?
rhazag wrote: Hi, im fairly new to orks. I only have 30 boys and the prophecy of the wolf box. Which units shall i buy next? Multiple 30 boys squats aren't that popular atm. I will buy a big mek with shock attack gun and some grots soon.
I reallt like evil sunz or bad moonz but deathskulls looking good too.
It depends on what setup you want. There's is lots of scope for massed infantry, vehicle spam, a dread waaagh, buggy spam, mek gun spam, etc.
I would definitely suggest getting a weirdboy, a shokk attack gun and some gretchin as a starting block. That +30 boys is a great starting position and you can go literally anywhere with the rest of your army.
Or, buy what you think looks cool. You don't have to be die-hard competitive all the time.
Jidmah wrote: Can't go wrong with a SAG and gretchin really. You should look into getting three units of troops first so you can build a functional army, Thrakka and Makari can be your HQs for the first few games.
Adding another box of MANz would also allow you to field a unit of 5 and build big mek.
And there is the option to get a box of flash gits to combine them with the nobz you have into a unit of 10 gits - the bodies are the same and the flash gits box has enough bits to turn nobz with kustom weapons into flash gits as well.
What kind of games are you going to play? Competitive play in a league or tournament or more casual play among friends?
Are there some units or a certain play style which has already caught your eye that you want to play?
Playing with friends and local tournaments but a lot of the players using competitive lists.
I really like stormboys, grots, flyers and meganobz but to be honest all ork models are cool.
People are freaking out a bit about the 9th edition preview on reddit for Orks.
I think it looks really good for them overall.
Concerns I've seen:
1) No more CP advantage with cheap batallions over enemies
-Yeah, but maybe I don't have to field triple batallion anymore, meaning Orks will have more diverse list composition. HUGE potential win.
2) Can't tag tanks anymore.
-Shame Orks have horrible anti-tank eh? /s
3) Blast weapons will wreck the horde
-This might affect boy heavy lists, but they've also said point cost adjustments might happen to balance out units for these new rules. Maybe the KFF getting 20 points cheaper IS intentional?
Worse comes to worse, take a couple KFF meks, good ol Mad Dok, and hide under a field of 5++, 6+++.
SemperMortis wrote: You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.
Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.
If his wounds jumped to 16 or his ability changed to 3 wounds a phase. how do you think it would change things? makes it 4 total phases to have to take damage in.
It wouldn't matter because durability isn't his issue. In fact, I think durability for him is just about perfect. The problem I have with Ghaz is....hes functionally useless. You can get almost the exact same buffs with significantly cheaper models and have MORE damage by using an equivalent number of warbosses.
Ghaz doesn't buff most armies remotely close to the point where I would want to include him. His aura is ok for Goff Boyz and thats about it. So why would I drop shy of 300pts for a model that doesn't do much? If Ghaz did something that other Klans benefited from then he might be useful. Instead of giving Goff boyz reroll hits what if he gave all Orkz near him +2 movement or what if including him allowed you to teleport him and 3 units of your choice turn 2, I mean, something that gives him a use.
At the moment Ghaz is a giant anti-character beat stick. The problem being is that he is slow as sin, he is easy to target and unless you teleport him, his chances of making it across the board are EXTREMELY low. It doesn't matter how tough he is, or that once he gets into the enemy lines he is a destroyer of worlds, what matters is that he is expensive, doesn't buff and will most turns not do anything.
weaver9 wrote: With the exception of space marines most true gunline armies may be hard pressed to deal damage to him outside the shooting phase. Tau, IG, Necrons, don't have a ton of psychic or melee.
I find it difficult to work him into lists thus far, but I would likely keep him in the tellyporta till needed. Even if that's to camp a far off objective, he presents a natural immunity to being shot off the board, and has a smaller footpront than 30 boyz, so is easier to place when deep striking.
Jidmah already covered it pretty well but the point is that even those armies you listed have several phases that they can hurt ghaz in. If you deepstrike Ghaz some units/armies can immediately shoot at him out of phase, if you charge a Tau gunline you better be prepared for him to eat 4 wounds in overwatch etc. etc.
- Direct quote from stream regarding new blast rules. Blast weapons now get maximum shots against "hordes." Gee, thanks guys.
Also specific comments about not being able to bog down tanks with "grots."
This is apparently a major concern at GW.
Kinda weird, given that grots almost never live long enough to ever be close to a tank worth actually locking down. However, this does mean Da Boomer gets a lot stronger as an option since not only can we use it as horde clearance instead of just primaris remover, we also get to shoot it in combat as well.
I'm assuming, as mentioned, that there'll be a point reduction for said horde units now that there's an explicit hard counter against them. I guess the question is if the HORDE keyword will be added once you get to a certain number of models? Or will it just be added to specific units? Would suck for 10 man squads of grots to get auto deleted because they gain the keyword.
yeah im curious who the hell was complaining about grots bogging a tank down. What tank would grots be reaching? even if you do get them across to assault a tank you're probably gonna lose them via overwatch, fight back, and morale.
The max shots vs hordes better not be a "10 man or greater number" thing because unless they address the fact that NOBODY except orks/nids/necrons use units of 10+ commonly its just gonna kick us in the teeth and nobody else. More us than the other two.
On one hand i would demand a price cut for horde units because of that but on the other i'd rather other things just get more expensive. Potentially fielding 200+ models when im not grotspamming is not appealing.
I sincerely hope they go back to the force org system, where slots are the main cost and not troop tax. Yeah its cool to run literally all vehicles, bikers, or whatever but for every fun "wtf?" list like that we get 5 ridiculous ones that become a problem. Hence, rule of 3 being a thing.
The max shots vs hordes better not be a "10 man or greater number" thing because unless they address the fact that NOBODY except orks/nids/necrons use units of 10+ commonly its just gonna kick us in the teeth and nobody else. More us than the other two.
They literally explicitly said "Less good news for orks I'm afraid." They know.
tulun wrote: The KFF Mek getting cheaper now looks intentional.
Not sure. Sounds weird that Mega-Armour Mek KFF does have to pay for the equipment then the regular does not.
If his base cost is now 35 points, he's "paid" for it (35+20 for wargear).
Not a confirmation, of course, just they built Saga with 9th in mind, so this is evidence that is not a mistake. Now the actual KFF rules, hell if I know.
The max shots vs hordes better not be a "10 man or greater number" thing because unless they address the fact that NOBODY except orks/nids/necrons use units of 10+ commonly its just gonna kick us in the teeth and nobody else. More us than the other two.
They literally explicitly said "Less good news for orks I'm afraid." They know.
Leaving stuff offboard can mitigate. Improved terrain rules can help. And if points gets complete overhaul(faq hints at that imo) then maybe there's help there.
If not yeah orks look more and more shooty msu army
To many point changes, rules changes, and stuff to be worried about orks in 9th.
Terrain changes should help orks,
blast rules will only hurt horde orks. I’m basically using 10man Grot squads now anyway.
I expect point drops.
The only thing that matters for orks right now is are we getting one of the early codex releases or stuck with the bespoke rules from saga of the beast for the next year plus. Because while this edition sounds even more like a 8th plus rules update with some small changes to terrain and flyers. We still don’t want to be playing 8th edition where everyone else in playing 8th plus.
Honestly I’m disappointed I wanted a clean slate with all the strats from the 5-6 sources consolidated into an index and cleaned up.
I’m not into all the unorganized rules for every army completely different from specialized detachments to specialist mobs to build your own mobs, to relics to strat like relics. There is like no continuity everything is all over.
Most of you should have been through this often enough. Let's not lose our minds and be fearful of a falling sky after tiny bits of a huge rule set being released.
It's really way to early to draw any conclusion for orks, our army relies heavily on many parts of the basic rules, so massive changes to them will always mean massive changes to how orks play. Changes to transports, assault or fighting might have much more impact than the new blast rule. And we aren't exactly lacking for blasts ourselves - da boomer getting max shots will be pretty nasty.
Jidmah wrote: Most of you should have been through this often enough.
Let's not lose our minds and be fearful of a falling sky after tiny bits of a huge rule set being released.
It's really way to early to draw any conclusion for orks, our army relies heavily on many parts of the basic rules, so massive changes to them will always mean massive changes to how orks play. Changes to transports, assault or fighting might have much more impact than the new blast rule.
And we aren't exactly lacking for blasts ourselves - da boomer getting max shots will be pretty nasty.
Talk about da boomer we need to seriously have people on that QnA Tuesday and ask wtf our faq is at!
Becuase it sounds like GW is just going to quickly push out those delayed PA books and jump right into June 9th edition hype/preorders.
Wakshaani wrote: The ORGINAL Space Orks box was all metal. I want to say it had 17 models in it? It was an odd number and I never got my hands on one in person.
This was soon followed by the first generation box of Ork Boys which had 36 (!) in one go.
So we heard yesterday that PA was written explicitly with 9th in mind. We also got some chatter about revised deepstrike and rejuvenated melee. I find myself wondering if this might shed some light on the previously seemingly-bizarre Goff power from SotW? Maybe DS could shift from 9 down to as close as 6"?
EDIT: wasn't aware DA got a strat specifically to allow 6" ds on Deathwing. Stand down
I honestly don’t expect a ton of changes..
Allowing some assaults on buildings instead of ghaz not being able to hit Troops in ruins.
Firing into combat with buggies and tanks
Flyers able to fly off the board On a turn they are on the board and reappear But not fly off in the same turn. Maybe some changes to Min movement.
Historical blast weapons now hit squads of 10+ models at max # of shots.
Set number of command points for a battleforged army (15?) with a bonus for mono faction (5? they said less soup)
Some changes to character rules and targeting but still ghaz is a bullet sponge Over 10 wounds.
And official missions are essentially copy and paste of nova missions since Brandt is the main driving point of this.
Deepstrike becomes a bit more flexible but still 9in charge w random roll.. you can however outflank again and maybe they will let you outflank without 9in rule.
gungo wrote: I honestly don’t expect a ton of changes..
Allowing some assaults on buildings instead of ghaz not being able to hit Troops in ruins.
Firing into combat with buggies and tanks
I think tanks shoot out of combat. I doubt they can(and other tanks can't for sure). In video one said tanks kill you in melee at which point another interrupted "and shoot another unit" or to that effect(rewatched that part about hour ago)
Just as a thought experiment: What about the general rules would have to shift in order to make Orks an assault army again? Assaulting out of open-topped transports, maybe? Weakened overwatch?
As it is right now, Orks getting into combat isn't really an issue with Evil Suns + Da Jump / Tellyporta + Ramming Speed, Kult of Speed + double move for bikes, etc. It's just when we get there, we get slaughtered.
a normal boy is just weak, so you'll need tons of em. but the 1" rule prevent large mobs from doing their max dmg output...
like 30 sluggaboyz do 120 attacks, hit 90, wound 30-45 thats 10+ wounds on pretty much anything but the toughest targets... but when was the last time you actually could fight with the whole mob??? and i am not even talking about congolining stuuf for auras etc. 99% of the time it is physically impossible to get 30 boyz into attack range...
hordes suffer so much from movement and positioning... and the last time 12 trukk boyz have done any real work for me, was like two editions ago
assault from vehicles AFTER THEY MOVE is a big one.
You can assault after disembarking a vehicle as it is but transports are literally just there to protect the occupants from small arms fire and/or deepstrike shenanigans right now. Which for orks...is kind of a joke to say because our vehicles dont really ignore small arms all that well.
Overwatch is fine imo, unless its a few choice targets its generally an annoyance not a gamebreaker. Also thats what the random vehicle is for, eat overwatch.
Boyz have always been PK delivery services, the boyz themselves typically didnt do near enough to justify their cost bu the PK made up for it. Then the PK got neutered.
I'm really not sure what would be done to fix the hidden PK (or obviously PFs in general). So long as GW sticks to the design concept of "Strikes Last weapons are -1 to hit weapons instead" for 9th, which given that it's meant to be compatible with existing 8th edition material is likely, they won't be able to serve their previous role. To say nothing of their pitiful anti-tank potential. 8th edition has been a bizarre transition in terms of how my army plays, having to go from relying almost entirely on PKs for anti-tank, to them being probably the worst option outside of Da Killa Klaw.
You can assault after disembarking a vehicle as it is but transports are literally just there to protect the occupants from small arms fire and/or deepstrike shenanigans right now. Which for orks...is kind of a joke to say because our vehicles dont really ignore small arms all that well.
Overwatch is fine imo, unless its a few choice targets its generally an annoyance not a gamebreaker. Also thats what the random vehicle is for, eat overwatch.
Boyz have always been PK delivery services, the boyz themselves typically didnt do near enough to justify their cost bu the PK made up for it. Then the PK got neutered.
Regular power weapons in general this edition have been pretty neuteured for the most part. Unless you can have an entire unit full of them, or they're mandatory equipment, you rarely seem them taken since damage is such a requirement to get through units nowadays, especially in the primaris heavy meta. That's why you only ever really see thunder hammers in SM lists, maybe a few power swords for BA with their +1 to wound, but beyond that PW are taken to a minimum. PK would need to be a TH with a flat 3 damage baseline to be worth the -1 to hit, or they need D6 damage. The Killsaw would also have to be changed to compensate for those changes. I think the most insulting part of this is that our Warboss in the past, even though we were usually pretty easy to put down compared to marines since we rarely had good saves to fall back on, would at least tear most enemies apart in return if we survived. Now that the PK is so piddly with its D3 damage, and our baffling lack of base attacks, even if we get the first hit in, we can only barely reliably kill lesser enemy HQ's like Guard Commanders because the PK sucks so hard. Without the Killa Klaw, I'm pretty sure we would almost never see Warbosses in lists. I'm glad they at least rectified our lack of resilience somewhat with the Biggest Boss Strat, but in terms of killiness, it would be nice to have a good baseline without having to resort to relics to make them effective.
Yeah i hear ya. It bothers me that ork HQs are relegated to Weirdboyz and SSAGs only these days.
Weirdboyz because theyre cheap HQs that at least our powers are decent...for once
SAGs, even the non-SSAG variant, is a character protected turret effectively that while often it doesnt do much, it can super easily simply delete something far more expensive than itself. Tbh i think snakeeyes need to kill him, it feels weird still managing to kill a vehicle with snake eyes strength because i rolled hot after the strength.
I want to use warbosses again, i used to run several of them because like you said if they didnt get mulched they butchered things. They actually were more threatening in melee than a space marine captain, just lacked survivability. But theyre...such....such a crap unit despite not being much cheaper than said captain now.
Heres hoping characters get renovated a bit in 9th, probably our next best hope at non-reroll 1s in shooting/wound characters actually being worth a damn.
Evil sun warboss with da biggest strat and Killa relic klaw does things no space marine captain can: you can da jump him and reliably charge something and delete it, even if it is hidden, because infantry can charge through walls.
The extra wound and 4++ enable you to alternatively charge a unit with a lot of overwatch, or to spend more effort killing the warboss (if he stays behind his wall as a result of a failed charge, he may even survive if your opponent is playing Very cagey)
It forces the opponent to deploy In a certain way, just like burna bombers.
Now I do think the warboss should have that as default profile, and we should not pay 1 pc for that profile
Still say getting a 5+ save on the Boys, and a 1 point price drop, is worth the -1 attack.
The problem isn't the damage the boys dish out, it's that they crumble to any sort of pushback. Overwatch is bad enough, but basic Primaris marines will always, *always* crunch Orks if charged. Hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, but only saving on 6+ means even a unit of 5 Primaris are cutting down 5 boys a fight phase, plus more from Overwatch and/or bolt pistols,
As it stands now, a boy (wounded on a 4+, save only on a 6) and a Guardsman (Wounded on a 3+, saves on a 5+) have the same durability.
That ain't right.
Give the boys a 5+ save, drop the cost a point, and take off 1 attack, and they'll be much, much heartier than they are right now.
(Seriously, as it stands, 20 Guardsmen vs 11 Ork boyz? I'm gonna give it to the Guard more often than not, in melee or at range. That's just *weird*!"
It'll be interesting to see how the new edition changes things up, if it does at all. There will naturally be things certain armies benefit more from than others, but hopefully it'll become a game of choices and decisions beyond which army book you picked up.
I've long had the opinion that PKs should be d6 damage and killsaws flat 3, this would fix pretty much all units who can carry them.
That said, considering how those are part of the bespoken rules, it's unlikely to change due to 9th edition, as is any other number that is written in our codex.
What parts of the general would help orks?
- The announced CP rules. Apparently you have to pay for additional detachments, and orks are one of the armies who can easily fill up brigades with useful units. Sure, we would have less CP than we do now, but you also need to pay less tax for gretchin and HQs you don't actually need, so the army would have more inherent punch. It also means less combos for soup-armies, which benefits us in many match-ups.
- Cover. Currently basically no ork units benefits from cover out of 0 AP guns shooting gretchin in cover. Having cover that actually works for us would increase the durability for things like lootas, tankbustas, walkers, gunwagons and more. It's probably not going back to 5th edition awesomeness, but one can wish. - Planes. Orks have a bunch of decent planes, rules that help them would help them as well. However, since eldar and space marine fliers have been causing trouble for most of the edition, I doubt that they would be getting better.
- Assault phase. Any change that would make charges less of a gamble would help, as would any nerf to overwatch.
- Fight phase. A change I would love to see is dropping all the pile-in and "who can fight" nonsense and just allow the entire unit to fight if it is within 1" of the enemy unit, with some sort of fail-safe added to prevent conga-lines.
- Transports. As stated before, orks have a long history of units charging out of transports. If this comes back, it could revitalize all those trukk and battlewagon strategies we used to have.
Not sure if this has been brought up before (lots of thread to read through still) but I think that the "hordes" being mentioned by GW could refer to a unit over a certain size..?
In other words a boyz squad that is less than let us say 15 is no longer considered a "horde" and anything more than 15 would be considered a horde. No source, just my thoughts on it
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Not sure if this has been brought up before (lots of thread to read through still) but I think that the "hordes" being mentioned by GW could refer to a unit over a certain size..?
In other words a boyz squad that is less than let us say 15 is no longer considered a "horde" and anything more than 15 would be considered a horde. No source, just my thoughts on it
That's the logical route. Tying it into keyword just makes it silly and illogical. 5 boyz just as easy to hit as 30 and easier than 5 terminators would be spectacularly stupid even for gw rules.
Jidmah wrote: I've long had the opinion that PKs should be d6 damage and killsaws flat 3, this would fix pretty much all units who can carry them.
- Fight phase. A change I would love to see is dropping all the pile-in and "who can fight" nonsense and just allow the entire unit to fight if it is within 1" of the enemy unit, with some sort of fail-safe added to prevent conga-lines.
100% ! That would speed up the fight phase when large units are involved, which currently takes far too long (its combination of dice buckets, consolidation and pile ins, all three actions put together, that take such a long time)
A fail safe could be + time saver could be "all models within 9 inches of a single, designated model 1 inch away from an enemy model, can (and must) make thir attacks". Piling in towards enemy units after having made your attacks can't be skipped though can it ?
They could go the route of some other games to prevent congalines where unless you are in a bunker sort of terrain your entire unit has to be within X of itself (basically forcing units to be in a ball, as the fartest left/right models have to be say 8" from each other...obviously based on model count/base size)
Vineheart01 wrote: They could go the route of some other games to prevent congalines where unless you are in a bunker sort of terrain your entire unit has to be within X of itself (basically forcing units to be in a ball, as the fartest left/right models have to be say 8" from each other...obviously based on model count/base size)
I mean there's already precedent with certain auras like the KFF, and frankly that would rein in some of the ridiculous gunlines that SM have, amongst other factions. Makes it so support characters can only realistically buff one or 2 units max, depending on their size, rather than a CM is right now which can potentially buff pretty much half their army.
Wakshaani wrote: Still say getting a 5+ save on the Boys, and a 1 point price drop, is worth the -1 attack.
The problem isn't the damage the boys dish out, it's that they crumble to any sort of pushback. Overwatch is bad enough, but basic Primaris marines will always, *always* crunch Orks if charged. Hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, but only saving on 6+ means even a unit of 5 Primaris are cutting down 5 boys a fight phase, plus more from Overwatch and/or bolt pistols,
As it stands now, a boy (wounded on a 4+, save only on a 6) and a Guardsman (Wounded on a 3+, saves on a 5+) have the same durability.
That ain't right.
Give the boys a 5+ save, drop the cost a point, and take off 1 attack, and they'll be much, much heartier than they are right now.
(Seriously, as it stands, 20 Guardsmen vs 11 Ork boyz? I'm gonna give it to the Guard more often than not, in melee or at range. That's just *weird*!"
without getting into buffs and klan/regiment bonuses. 20 Guardsmen cost 80pts, 11 boyz is 77. In CC the guardsmen have 20 attacks for 10 hits and about 3.3 wounds due to hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s, this results in 2.75ish dead boyz. The 11 boyz get 33 attacks for 16.5 hits and 11 wounds which results in 7.3ish dead guardsmen. Guard lose 29pts, Orkz lose 19pts So boyz are definitely better in CC, but not by an appreciable amount. The big difference is ranged combat. Those 20 guardsmen get 20 shots for 10 hits and 3.33 wounds at half range its 6.66 wound. Boyz lose 21-42pts depending on range. the 11 boyz get 11 shots at 12' for 3.66 hits (50% chance of 1 extra shot for a 1/3rd chance to hit) and 2.44 wounds. Those 2.44 wounds after saves become 1.62 damage. So between 4-8pts of dead guard.
So boyz are better at CC but IG are SIGNIFICANTLY better at ranged.
Beside the mayhem of the 9th previews (omg that C'Tan model!), I had a couple of games Sunday Vs hard counters.
The 2nd best AD mech player last year with 30 electro priests with 3++ going 2++ with stratagem, 3 shooting boats and a bunch of plasma dudes. He wrecked me because I deployed wrong and allowed him to munch thru 20-30 grots per turns , allowing him to proc the 3++. I had one shot T2 where I gambled a bit but the dices failed me completely and I had just the time to clock him out of T4 with a minor loss.
The other game was Vs 3 Caladius plus the named custodes on foot, 3 ad mech shooting boats, 3 basilisk and a wyvern. So a crapton of shooting this time. T1 I lost: the gunwagon, 5 mek gunz, 2 planes and 30 Grots. I had basically no gunz left. I was about to give up right after that, but I managed to get a couple of wrap and get in 3 charges that allowed me to keep a grot shield in combat in order to save the Flashgitz and Ghaz pushing him back. The SSAG blowed up 2 Caladius.
The rest of the game was very fun and tight and I managed a win by 2 points, mostly because I messed up T4 getting greedy Vs a wyvern . He was on 1 W and he healed that fething thing 3d3!
In both matches I went second and both matches proved that the list is good, but Vs hard pressing lists or über shooting, being second ain't no fun. Ghaz MUST have advance and charges. Without it can't be used at the highest tables
Jidmah wrote: Blast might also be something like getting a hit dice for every model in the unit, up to X, similar to how bombs work.
Didn't the video already say max shots vs horde units?
Yes, but there are multiple ways to archive that, and I don't think giving units HORDE keywords would be a good alternative.
I doubt horde is keyword rather than unit size. But bonus was told. Max shots. Battle cannon 6. Plasma cannon 3. Only question is is horde 10, 15, 20, 21 or what.
although a horde keyword could give some benefits too....
allowing them to utilize cover even if not all models are in... swarming the enemy in CC, so maybe 2" radius to attack instead of 1" etc etc
I hope GW have thought it through, because I see potential holes there. If it is a number like tneva82 mentionned, then people will take 19 model squads, or 9 model squads to counter being a horde.
If a horde keyword, then what about when you just have 8 or 5 models remaining, does your unit still count as a horde ? If it does then it is a bit stupid isn't it...
But who knows, perhaps a good system has been set up by GW, ?
Many of the units that can be 20+ gets bonus at that size. Will many orks field units of 19 to avoid the blast effect? Anybody see 20 big ork units to begin with?
I doubt 10 is the treshhold. 10 isn't exactly horde. I would be betting more of 20+ and then it's often matter of bonus or avoidance of blast. 19 orks is lot less dangerous than 20.
Theres also a massive number of ways that they could handle it. We have no way of guessing, as GW is known for doing pretty much the opposite what was speculated for a rule that wasnt partially spoiled already anyway.
Knowing that blast weapons hit full on hordes is not much of a spoiler to go on.
My gut would say its a number but GW loves their keywords.
People in general are quite negative, the internet has expanded that notion to ridiculous levels. For all we know, all these anti-horde speculations are true and orks by default are screwed....but then the terrain changes come into play and we're actually better off in the end. Time will tell.
Its still a ways off too so... hey GW.... WHERES THE FAQ!!
tneva82 wrote: Many of the units that can be 20+ gets bonus at that size. Will many orks field units of 19 to avoid the blast effect? Anybody see 20 big ork units to begin with?
I doubt 10 is the treshhold. 10 isn't exactly horde. I would be betting more of 20+ and then it's often matter of bonus or avoidance of blast. 19 orks is lot less dangerous than 20.
There are quite a few horde units across other codices which get their bonus for having 10 or more models, like horrors or pox walkers. So I heavily doubt this will be the way it works.
If the new admech flier gets within 6" of your KFF, you have no KFF for 1cp. Also shuts down painboy if you had both. Orks have almost no offensive auras, so this hurts. Bad. Also messes with Breakin' Heads technically and arguably Mob Rule's sharing part
Sorry if I sounded negative, I really didn't mean to. It is all very subjective but it doesn't seem like a great idea to me, that is all, nothing more, I didn't want to bring anyone s mood down. I love the other ideas i heard about 9th though ! I guess I should have started with that hah hah. And of course we don't know, indeed perhaps GW find a good concept for this "horde" thing, who knows at this point
Boyz? You can bet whatever you wish boyz will be hit with this. Depending on treshold so can tank bustas and lootas
Seems like most people here post Mech lists which only feature grots.
I personally never take Lootas, and Tankbustas I usually take 10-12 at most as I fit them in a Trukk or Chinork, so I doubt it'll affect them for me.
Jidmah wrote:
Crimson Fists use 5 or more models - can't wait to hit those intercessor hordes with da boomer
Haha, well I doubt it's that VERBATIM, just an example of the type of rule they have built. I would wager it'll be either 11+, 15+, or 20+. If it's 20+, I doubt it'll actually be that big a deal. 11+ would be annoying. 15+? Just take 1 less Loota or TB.
The question is what type of unit they are going after, so that might inform at the actual model threshold.
Vineheart01 wrote:
Upcoming terror if you guys face Admech btw.
Spoiler:
If the new admech flier gets within 6" of your KFF, you have no KFF for 1cp. Also shuts down painboy if you had both.
Orks have almost no offensive auras, so this hurts. Bad. Also messes with Breakin' Heads technically and arguably Mob Rule's sharing part
See, now THAT'S something to freak out over. That's straight up BS against Orks. Guess those flyers are the first thing I need to smash in that matchup... As it says models, at least it's not likely to affect mob rule if you have at least 1 model outside of 6" I guess?
Its ambiguous but i think it has to have the source of the aura within 6" to negate it, so fortunately it wont reliably mess with us Turn1 long as your KFF's arent 6" away from the front edge of any friendly units so the flier can sit there.
But man....that is scary powerful against orks. Most armies that abuse auras are offensive ones, they can literally just walk away from it. Forcibly breaks up castles in that case at best. Its ultimate use is to negate defensive auras, which the only ones that come to mind are gamebreaking strong (TECHNICALLY the Tyranid Synapse is an aura lol)
Especially Da Boomer, 
