Vineheart01 wrote: Its ambiguous but i think it has to have the source of the aura within 6" to negate it, so fortunately it wont reliably mess with us Turn1 long as your KFF's arent 6" away from the front edge of any friendly units so the flier can sit there.
But man....that is scary powerful against orks. Most armies that abuse auras are offensive ones, they can literally just walk away from it. Forcibly breaks up castles in that case at best. Its ultimate use is to negate defensive auras, which the only ones that come to mind are gamebreaking strong (TECHNICALLY the Tyranid Synapse is an aura lol)
Should be doable for a KFF mek. Might be a hair more awkward for like a Mork, as you might need to deploy more aggressively just because of terrain.
Man, just looking at the Admech update, this seems really, really good for them? Our PA wasn't this good lol.
Quite literally that entire reveal has me going O.O
The only one that made me go "meh" was the copter strat until i realized it shuts down defensive crap right before you shoot and it lasts until your next turn so it also blocks morale auras and forces castles to back up to keep their auras.
Now im questioning if its OPlol
As also an AdMech player it's an interesting strategem, but I don't think we'llhave to worry too much. With the amount of bodies we can have on the table, it should be relatively easy to screen against.
Elite armies, however, will struggle against this.
That rules reveal is a big hit for the current meta. Given how much marines rely on auras, that alone could shake up lists being less reliant on them since there's a literal hard counter built into Ad-Mech, which for the time being can be souped pretty easily into most Imperium lists. It's definitely going to make KFF's less palatable for us, but thankfully we're one of the few armies where auras aren't as necessary for us to benefit from. The other rules are still pretty damn solid though, especially the "build your Forge World" ones. Definitely kinda sucks we were saddled with ones we can't even combine.
Vineheart01 wrote: Quite literally that entire reveal has me going O.O
The only one that made me go "meh" was the copter strat until i realized it shuts down defensive crap right before you shoot and it lasts until your next turn so it also blocks morale auras and forces castles to back up to keep their auras.
Now im questioning if its OPlol
I mean necrons can technically do that at 12 inches, it just requires bringing an otherwise rather mediocre character (zahndrekh) and it only targets one character per turn. Seems really unfair to daemons though since they need to take a relic for a single chance to do it to a single unit with a 3d6 vs leadership roll
Grimskul wrote: That rules reveal is a big hit for the current meta. Given how much marines rely on auras, that alone could shake up lists being less reliant on them since there's a literal hard counter built into Ad-Mech, which for the time being can be souped pretty easily into most Imperium lists. It's definitely going to make KFF's less palatable for us, but thankfully we're one of the few armies where auras aren't as necessary for us to benefit from. The other rules are still pretty damn solid though, especially the "build your Forge World" ones. Definitely kinda sucks we were saddled with ones we can't even combine.
I think this will hurt Iron Hands infantry a bit, as they use defensive auras extensively, (5++, +1 FNP) but aren't most SM auras offensive otherwise? They can just move their chapter master / captains / lieuts out of 6" and have their stuff get re-rolls.
yeah marines are mostly psychic buff or offensive aura. Really all youre gonna negate is rerolls in overwatch/melee on your terms and force them to get away from the plane if they wanna kept those rerolls.
Don´t forget that it works at the end of the movement phase, which means that he needs to land within 6" of your caracthers before shooting , magic and charge.
"Until the start of your turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect within 6" of this model"
Does this mean if they get close to even 1 grot under a KFF, it loses the 5++ invul, thus making the entire unit lose the 5++ save? So it doesn't necessarily need to target the aura character if the entire unit needs to be WHOLLY within..
My AdMech friend pointed out that you can just screen out the flyer, exactly like other people have to screen out burna bommers to prevent 'eadbuts.
If it can't move within 6" of your KFF/doc, it won't be doing jack.
If the new admech flier gets within 6" of your KFF, you have no KFF for 1cp. Also shuts down painboy if you had both.
Orks have almost no offensive auras, so this hurts. Bad. Also messes with Breakin' Heads technically and arguably Mob Rule's sharing part
Luckily orks should have no trouble ensuring flier can't get within 6" of KFF...But yeh for defensive auras that certainly going to be super good. KFF for orks, imagifier for valorous heart imagifiers...But out of those 2 orks have it easier as they can surround him with guys on their turn.
Good point above on the morkanaut. That's easier to shut down than infantry model on 40mm base.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: Actually, the phrasing of the stratagem:
"Until the start of your turn, enemy models aura abilities have no effect within 6" of this model"
Does this mean if they get close to even 1 grot under a KFF, it loses the 5++ invul, thus making the entire unit lose the 5++ save? So it doesn't necessarily need to target the aura character if the entire unit needs to be WHOLLY within..
No he needs to get the flier to be within 6" of the KFF source. You have enough guys around the flyer base doesn't FIT within 6" you are safe. Well unless you move there yourself but then his shooting phase is already over.
Screening protects from that. Infantry armies won't have trouble with this. Vehicle heavy armies are more likely to be in trouble with this. Less chaff screens and morkanauts harder to cover. Greentide just laughs it over until army is more or less blown apart anyway.
Everybody hits on 6´s
Capped modifiers
Capped CP (everybody has the same amount)
Veichles and monsters can fight second floors as Titatic
Monsters can shoot in CC as tanks
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also
Terrain block LOS (obscuring is gonna be a thing: terrain have a footprint)
Mininum terrain amount implemented.
NO alternate activation.
1 CP for having units in DS.
They can come from different from different table edges as the game progresses.
Overwatch is gonna change (helping CC armies)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Goonhammer transcript:
Thanks Emi for the run down! I like how this definitely makes Dred Mob more palatable, because a big issue with running so many walkers was the dumb protection a lot of units would get if they hid up on the higher floors of buildings.
Grimskul wrote: Thanks Emi for the run down! I like how this definitely makes Dred Mob more palatable, because a big issue with running so many walkers was the dumb protection a lot of units would get if they hid up on the higher floors of buildings.
Cheers!
Also think about those Gorkanaut stomping intercessors in CC
Grimskul wrote: Thanks Emi for the run down! I like how this definitely makes Dred Mob more palatable, because a big issue with running so many walkers was the dumb protection a lot of units would get if they hid up on the higher floors of buildings.
Cheers!
Also think about those Gorkanaut stomping intercessors in CC
That'll show those cowardly beakies to try and hide in their houses!
I also like they're starting to move away from TLOS, and to more nuanced cover system, since now there'll be more incentive to use varying terrain rather than giant LoS blocking walls to actually make sure they do something. Makes me wonder if they'll be using negative hit mods more, now that negatives seem to cap or don't stack, and that everyone hits on 6's now.
tulun wrote: Blast weapons still have random shots.
Maybe they'll just get a bonus to hit or extra shots?
It seems like it's tied to UNIT size, not a keyword.
Based on saturday stream max shots vs hordes. Which seems to be(based on playtester. This was mentioned on SOB FB group so don't take this as 100% quaranteed) is 10+ models.
Based on saturday stream max shots vs hordes. Which seems to be(based on playtester. This was mentioned on SOB FB group so don't take this as 100% quaranteed) is 10+ models.
From today:
Q7: Are random amounts of shots of weapons still a thing?
Stu - Yes. Blast helps even out some of the randomness for big explosive weapons, but there will still be random shots.
The address to big things for some reason not being allowed to whack stuff on upper levels makes me so happy.
It pissed me off to no end that my Morkanaut, which is twice as tall as the little 3" platform the enemy is sitting on, couldnt attack because he has a base. Yet the Battlewagon could because it didnt have a base and the elevation wasnt too high....because yaknow a deffrolla can totally run over the upper level occupants but a klaw sitting at that level cant swipe at it. Makes total sense.
They make it sound like Monster is going to be slightly better than Vehicle again, wonder what that means for Ghazzy. Being able to shoot his gun out of combat wont mean too much on its own but they sound like theres more to it than just that.
Based on saturday stream max shots vs hordes. Which seems to be(based on playtester. This was mentioned on SOB FB group so don't take this as 100% quaranteed) is 10+ models.
From today:
Q7: Are random amounts of shots of weapons still a thing?
Stu - Yes. Blast helps even out some of the randomness for big explosive weapons, but there will still be random shots.
Guess we'll have to see what the actual rule is.
Max shots vs horde units(10+ models) with blast weapons sure remove randomness.
Nowhere did they mention horde was 10+, they just say its in the back of the book on how blast works.
I'd wager they intentionally make it 20+ so it DOESNT EVER affect any marine, since not a single marine can have 20 models in a unit afaik. Not even sure if any loyalists can reach 20 for that matter.
I expected it to be higher but it's the only thing we have heard so far with regardng what is horde. Annoyingly when they were asked what defines blast and horde they only answered first one in any clarity(appendix at the back of book) and practically skipped horde(just said big units)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Nowhere did they mention horde was 10+, they just say its in the back of the book on how blast works..
Yes. I said this came from elsewhere supposedly from playtester and that's why I also said it can't be considered 100% reliable.
My guess is OVER 10 models. So 11+
That doesn’t sound like horde to you guys but the vast majority of units in this game are 5 or 10. With 15 and 20+ considered large.
Honestly I only expect the variable shots just to go max and the vast majority of those blast weapons are just d6 so it’s not a Deal. There are even fewer variable shot blast weapons that are 2d6 or 3d6.
I see a really bright competitive future ahead And to those that are crying (again the usual suspects) that the sky is falling. If 20 is a horde, 19 boyz is not
Honestly if like they say pushing boyz or not mobs up the board (instead of da jumping them, or not taking any) will be worth it, then our army will get its feel back.
I guess perhaps Controlling the centre of the board will give VPs or something
I wonder if walls will still be impassible to non-infantry units. Having vehicles able to burst through walls was always fun in the past edition. Will give a bit more strength to dreads, naughts and Ghaz.
tulun wrote: Mech Orks are going to love these detachment changes.
I hope the base CP rate is enough to feed the stuff these lists wants to do, if it hits like 15+ at 2k with no more unit taxes...
This is my concern. Also a tough gig for, well, basically every competitive ork list since your horde agen army is going to be paying to have different klans and so starting with fewer CP than the guy with the single battalion elite army...
On the basis of the info we have so far, that's my only worry, however.
Vast majority of people will want 2 detachments anyway. Even just a vanguard or something for more elite/heavy/FA slots specifically, since not many armies have units in every slot type that DONT conflict with tactics. Plus, HQs. Unless they jack up psykers again i still want my weirdboys around so more than 3 HQs is kinda needed. And a Brigade's slot requirements may become difficult if vehicles get price hyked to compensate for the new rules (also blocks multi kulture lists anyway). Thats assuming Brigades even exist in 9th, they may remove that to entice spending CP for more slots.
A lot of the time in older editions most people wanted a 4th or even 5th slot of a given type something fierce. To me all this changes is no more ~200pt battalions in a list lol.
tulun wrote: Mech Orks are going to love these detachment changes.
I hope the base CP rate is enough to feed the stuff these lists wants to do, if it hits like 15+ at 2k with no more unit taxes...
This is my concern. Also a tough gig for, well, basically every competitive ork list since your horde agen army is going to be paying to have different klans and so starting with fewer CP than the guy with the single battalion elite army...
On the basis of the info we have so far, that's my only worry, however.
This might open up the possibility that horde armies AREN'T the only competitive choice. In fact, horde armies might not be competitive at all, as the meta is about to be changed drastically.
Honestly, the question will be if certain detachments will be free to take (IE: A Batallion might not cost you CP, as you are required 3 troops + 2 HQ, while a Vanguard / spearhead / outrider / Supreme command costs you a CP), which would address that concern.
I generally agree with the philosophy they are going for -- one of the things I hated most about this edition was taking detachments strictly for CP. I'd rather take 4 troops because I want to, not because my army becomes non-functioning if I don't.
The only problem I see is that a lot of lists may be pretty over the top until the first points adjustment -- I could see something like the GK paladin bomb getting even stronger, for instance, without the need for any more troop taxes unless they want to.
I mean, depending on which ruin you're using they could already charge people on the second level at least. With their big chunky hull (turrets not included) you could actually get within that 1 inch mark
cody.d. wrote: I wonder if walls will still be impassible to non-infantry units. Having vehicles able to burst through walls was always fun in the past edition. Will give a bit more strength to dreads, naughts and Ghaz.
Honestly dreads and monsters should probably be allowed to move through buildings Like bikes and cavalry and Other vehicles like tanks and buggies should be more limited through
tulun wrote: Mech Orks are going to love these detachment changes.
I hope the base CP rate is enough to feed the stuff these lists wants to do, if it hits like 15+ at 2k with no more unit taxes...
This is my concern. Also a tough gig for, well, basically every competitive ork list since your horde agen army is going to be paying to have different klans and so starting with fewer CP than the guy with the single battalion elite army...
On the basis of the info we have so far, that's my only worry, however.
To be fair most competitive orks lists can do with 1 detachment we chose triple battalion for the CP. the 3rd battalion was always a tax.
It’s not really hard to do a single Competitive deathskull klan with double battalion if we get to start with 15+ cp. heck you can do triple outrider deadthskull klan with 15 cp and have a legit buggy or mech list.
However this is a deathknell to those sub kulturs which are way to unit specific...unless they don’t require cp.
Also unless there is major changes to game design horde will still be the most competitive due to area denial.
I agree that monster should go thru building, but probably that should somehow damage the structure in their wake as well. Can't imagine a 6 meters Swarmlord just gliding thru a window...
So can Ghazghkull shoot into the combat he is currently in also? A shame he cant have a supa skorcha as that would solve his problem with being tarpitted
Elfric wrote: So can Ghazghkull shoot into the combat he is currently in also? A shame he cant have a supa skorcha as that would solve his problem with being tarpitted
Exact working of 9th ed isn't known. Whether tanks/monsters can shoot FROM melee and/or INTO melee is unknown. Logic says they can't shoot INTO as how they suddenly can shoot pinpoint accurately into melee while infantry can't? (nevermind logic issue that main guns etc wouldn't even be able to shoot that close generally).
Odds are decent he can shoot out of combat but target still needs to be out of combat.
I mean, depending on which ruin you're using they could already charge people on the second level at least. With their big chunky hull (turrets not included) you could actually get within that 1 inch mark
I was referring to the ability to go through ruins instead of having to go around. I've often had issues with bonebreakas (or the wartrike) being unable charge units on the bottom floor because they were standing 1.1" from the walls in a U-shaped building.
Btw regarding can vehicles in melee shoot into combat rather than out assuming it's all vehicles(why dread couldn't but monster can?) Then if sister codex was designed 9th in mind(hah!) That would speak against shooting into melee. They have vehicle that can do that. Would need errating if all can. Possible but would make mockery of idea it was written 9th in mind
The transcript does sound cool, especially the help for melee and horde armies. Orks should hopefully start feeling like themselves again Although easier said than done of course!
Be surprised if they address that since they said all our books still are valid. They'd have to add some pretty funky core rules to limit auras like that without hamstringing certain ones that really, really shouldnt be nerfed (breaking heads for example)
All i can think of they could do is "reroll to hit/wound do not work in overwatch unless specifically allowed" so at least marines dont have unusually strong overwatch.
Kroem wrote: The transcript does sound cool, especially the help for melee and horde armies. Orks should hopefully start feeling like themselves again Although easier said than done of course!
He didn't really mention anything that specifically helps horde armies. He said that more terrain helps melee units, less terrain will help range, along with overwatch changes.
He used the example of a Carnifex and Genestealer cults, didn't really talk about Boyz or Gaunts specifically as the question asked.
Although they didn't really mention it specifically in reference to this question, I do think that being able to put large units in reserve for CP would be an obvious buff for melee, depending on the cost of the strategem.
Stu - Changes to Overwatch and Falling Back. New core Stratagems to give melee armies a boost and make it worth going across the board.
This is the particular line I was talking about. These type of structural changes (terrain, overwatch, fall-back etc.) are much better than usual slapping of extra re-rolls or special rules onto melee units to 'fix' them.
If we have a rulebook in which 33% terrain coverage is listed as standard and it's effective at stopping long range firepower, then it benefits footsloggers like Boyz, short range firepower units like Flash Gitz and terrain ignoring units like StormBoyz. We could see some really nice Ork armies!
The interview mentioned that soup would still be possible but would need to spend CP to do that. This looks like it is an aim at helping monoline armies by having more CP. I would expect that multiple clans might make us have to use CP as well.
Vineheart01 wrote: I'd be surprised at that one. Allies has always been viewed between codexes and different kultures are the same codex.
Yeah, that would suck if it that were the case, because, as mentione previously, it means that suboptimal klan kulturs like the ones in SoTB will never be taken, and ones that work best with only certain units (i.e. Bad Moons) are going to be hard to pull off compared to better stock klanz like deffskullz.
Vineheart01 wrote: I'd be surprised at that one. Allies has always been viewed between codexes and different kultures are the same codex.
I do believe it is additional detachments that require command points based on what they have said in the stream. They didn't qualify that by saying it only means a detachment from another faction.
Honestly as long as vehicles can shoot in combat and assault within reach of the model even if the vehicle has a base. That will make them significantly better.
However dreadnauts and monsters need the help most and have been having a hard time overall in 8th. They should be able to move though any terrain and assault any unit they can reach and shoot into combat. Even with those changes a lot of monsters and dreads still won’t be very competitive. They basically need to be infantry plus to be decent.
Vineheart01 wrote: I'd be surprised at that one. Allies has always been viewed between codexes and different kultures are the same codex.
I do believe it is additional detachments that require command points based on what they have said in the stream. They didn't qualify that by saying it only means a detachment from another faction.
Honestly, if they are trying to encourage mono faction, this is fine. Orks fill up brigades easily. I also wonder if certain detachments will cost less if you’re forced to take troops.
Just means we’re selective with our second detachment choice in list building.
I reckon death skull + <CLAN> will become really common, because DS is just so good for all around competitively.
Haasbioroid wrote: I'm hoping that we can still use multiple clans/subkultures without too much of a penalty. But it all else fails, I do have a 2000 pt boomboyz brigade
As far as the QnA suggest your first detachment is free and each additional one costs extra
The first kulture is free and each additional one costs extra
This might be an issue if a second detachment w different subkultur costs 2cp
Command points are decided by point total.
We don’t know if this is like relics where the second detachment costs 1 and the third costs 3....
We don’t know if certain units don’t cost CP such as assassin detachment for imperium... or subkulturs
There is going to be a massive faq and errata when 9th is released to fix certain issues.
Haasbioroid wrote: So I could get one clan and one kulture without penalty? That would be perfect.
That’s the idea they are encouraging less soup by removing CP everytime you add a new detachment and new chapter/kultur.
So let’s say for example 2000pt game is 20cp (I’m just guessing)
If you take a battalion or brigade and fit everything. You have 20cp to use during the game.
If you take another detachment from a different kultur you would pay for example only 2cp
Meaning you have 18cp for the game...
If you take a third detachment and a third different kultur (and I’m assuming it’s now 3 cp cost)
You would only have 12 cp for the game...
The above is my guess on costs but the first detachment and kultur are free.. if my guess above is correct there will likely be a sweet spot around a double detachment using multiple chapters/kulturs, Like relics. This will likely cut down on the soup issue a bit...
But again I doubt units like assassins will cost a cp to take and I’m unsure about subkulturs but they will extremely limited if they end up costing cp.
One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?
Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.
But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)
Vineheart01 wrote: Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.
But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)
True, but they aren't a mainstay of their army right? I mean most factions can list the BS5 units they have on one hand. But for us we have to do that with BS4 as if it's impressive. xP
Though i'll be happy to not have to deal with people getting +2 to hit on us I will miss having a BS3 Naught stomping around.
cody.d. wrote: One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?
People are theorizing that like moving with Heavy weapons will become -1 BS not -1 to hit.
So maybe there are other ways to get low enough BS so that always hits on 6's matters.
Lots of vehicles also hit on a 6+, so now will always have a chance to hit their target.
They will need to make a few -1bs abilities because without it there is going to be issues with some armies having (aka eldar) with multiple -1 to hit sources.
cody.d. wrote: One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?
Fortifications and degraded units come to mind. Also keep in mind that this also applies to WS, and there are a lot of units with WS5+ or worse.
Haasbioroid wrote: So I could get one clan and one kulture without penalty? That would be perfect.
That’s the idea they are encouraging less soup by removing CP everytime you add a new detachment and new chapter/kultur.
Let's be clear that this is guessing. We know that additional codexes cost CP and we know that extra detachments cost CP - but we don't know whether klans/cults/hive fleets etc do. We also don't know exactly what is meant by 'first detachment free'. The detachment itself might be dictated - i.e. at 2000 points you might get a free battalion, but you have to pay for a spearhead even if it's your only detachment. Maybe at 1000 points your free detachment option is a patrol or whatever.
Maybe there are entirely new detachment. I'd suggest that this seems very likely.
cody.d. wrote: One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?
Well the stream was fairly casual so it could be "you always hit on 6's" is basically because nobody has BS6+ so -1 to hit max is essentially 6's always hit.
Or there ARE some ways to get -2. Heavy weapon moving being prime candinate since it's something you rather than enemy controls. Aka you can avoid that. Opponent can't force it on you.
Or there's 6's always hit to future proof.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: They will need to make a few -1bs abilities because without it there is going to be issues with some armies having (aka eldar) with multiple -1 to hit sources.
Eh isn't that the point? No comboing those so that hitting them is super hard...
6's auto-hit is also a bigger thing in CC, as many tanks have a WS of 6+ so they can't hit things with a negative modifier as of right now. And a Culexus assassin can't be hit with powerklaws as of right now either.
I don't actually think that that rule will be super important but mostly remove the "feel bad" edge cases though.
cody.d. wrote: One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?
Well the stream was fairly casual so it could be "you always hit on 6's" is basically because nobody has BS6+ so -1 to hit max is essentially 6's always hit.
Honestly, if they are trying to encourage mono faction, this is fine. Orks fill up brigades easily. I also wonder if certain detachments will cost less if you’re forced to take troops.
Just means we’re selective with our second detachment choice in list building.
I reckon death skull + <CLAN> will become really common, because DS is just so good for all around competitively.
As a mono-Klan Evil Sunz guy, I can attest that the Sunz work just fine on their own as well. Not a lot of units don't appreciate having extra Move, or ignoring movement shooting penalties.
Vineheart01 wrote: Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.
But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)
My guess is a unit, such as a Dark Eldar Venom, which causes a minus -1 from its unit entry would stack with say moving and firing a heavy weapon because the sources come from different units, but not the penalty for moving heavy weapons and being under the psychic power Drain. I can see that being clunky to intrepid at the table, but when has that ever stopped GW.
Vineheart01 wrote: Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.
But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)
My guess is a unit, such as a Dark Eldar Venom, which causes a minus -1 from its unit entry would stack with say moving and firing a heavy weapon because the sources come from different units, but not the penalty for moving heavy weapons and being under the psychic power Drain. I can see that being clunky to intrepid at the table, but when has that ever stopped GW.
If there is comboing I expect moving with heavy weapon to be only one as that's what you control. Though I still expect it to be flat out no worse than -1 so if you are already under -1 and not modifier moving is not penalized.
Honestly, if they are trying to encourage mono faction, this is fine. Orks fill up brigades easily. I also wonder if certain detachments will cost less if you’re forced to take troops.
Just means we’re selective with our second detachment choice in list building.
I reckon death skull + <CLAN> will become really common, because DS is just so good for all around competitively.
As a mono-Klan Evil Sunz guy, I can attest that the Sunz work just fine on their own as well. Not a lot of units don't appreciate having extra Move, or ignoring movement shooting penalties.
To be frank, most units of ours do not care about the move or advance bonus (and to be clear, ES removes the penalty for advancing and assault weapons, not general movement shooting penalties)-- in reality, the primary thing that keeps Evil suns a thing is +1 to charge, because one of our main strategies is deep strike and charge infantry. If that was ever takable by the likes of Deathskulls, Freebootas, or Goffs, Evil suns would die competitively, as the other clans charge rates would become consistent. Their new psychic power is good, but sadly, most of the vehicles we wanna buff have a WC9 cast, and you generally don't wanna field a lot of boys if you're fielding the big Dreads.
If you're gonna go Mono clan, I'd probably pin Evil Suns as low as 3rd behind Deathskulls and Freebootas competitively, imo -- not a terrible place, but Deathskulls just universally help our units better (rerolls, 6++, and Obsec on non-troop infantry including our HQs), and Freebootas really get a power boost mono clan because you are much more likely to trigger their clan trait. And as is being demonstrated by some competitive players, getting your Flash Gits to a BS3+ with re-roll ones and exploding 6's is broken.
Stuff might be shaken up in 9th, of course, but I would be shocked if Deathskulls gets supplanted as the best mono clan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a quick theorycraft note --
Does the ObSec nature of Deathskulls infantry start to look really good? If a lot of armies start to abandon troops, our infantry HQs, Nobs, Mega Nobs, and Stormboyz all getting ObSec seems really, really powerful.
I could see Deathskull Stormboyz in particular starting to look really good. Obscuring terrain will help them move up the board, they have an 80% chance to do a 26" charge (12" + auto 6" advance + 2d6" charge), and you can now outflank a weirdboy with Maniacal Seizure to give them AP-1 on whatever they are charging. Heck, they can even wreck vehicles T7 or less, as you can use Wreckers on them to give them all re-roll to wound, and they just steal objectives from our enemies.
Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.
Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.
On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have
Reckon with the 1+ to wound rolls and a trio of them it could do some damage? I know it's still the most expensive of the 3 and has a clunky, all over the place ruleset but +1 to wound is still fairly handy to have against a lot of targets.
gungo wrote: Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.
Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.
On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have
I think the damage bonus would be AP-1 Choppa / slugga attacks.
But yeah, their stratagem options are obviously worse than boys.
I do think there will be some exploration for these non-boy options now you aren't forced into a troop tax, though.
gungo wrote: Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.
Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.
On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have
I think that their punch is fine it's their *survivability* that needs help.
They're too easy to pick off on the move, die badly to overwatch, and then whatever they jumped just murders them in CC.
Changes to cover rules could help that. If it's not all or nothing with a unit, if it's not just a 1+ to armor instead a separate save like it used to be. Either or both of those would make hordes a bit tougher, help counteract the new blast weapon mechanics.
You can already Take stornboys in a flyboy subkultur... Which is cover save in open and -1 to hit in melee...
The problem I have with stormboys is even in a max 15 man unit. And let’s say I’m lucky to get 10 into combat after Shooting, movement deaths and overwatch...10 boys without any other buffs and regular choppas don’t really do much. It’s the same issue with warbikers which have better saves they are just fast overpriced boys that don’t do enough damage due to lack of numbers.
They needed a strategem to increase thier damage on the charge... “rokkit charge” 1 cp on a turn a unit of stormboys charge Each model in this unit gets +1 str, +1atk.. (I’d even take +1 atk, and -1ap in melee on turn they charge.)
I can work with str5 stormboys with 3 atks each. Str 4 and 2 atks is a lot weaker.
Well you don't shove STormboys or Bikers into mainline combat units … you use their speed to hit weak targets, like artillery. Stormboys can wreck a unit of IG mortars, for instance, or deal with a 5-mean Devastator squad. Bikers can drive a unit of scouts off of a tactical objective just fine.
But you can't, you know, expect to mug a bunch of Terminators and get away with it.
You pay a premium for the SPEED of those units. Don't waste it.
Don't stormboyz already have 3 attacks base? 2 for being an ork, 1 for choppas? And if you pop a warpath on them that'll be 4 per lad. And you can have 30 of the buggers in a unit. That's 30 lads with 4 attacks a piece that can move 20" without a roll. Yeah you lose 1 in 6 for it but there's some power there. If it was anything less than 2pts extra from a boy there would be an issue right?
Wakshaani wrote: Well you don't shove STormboys or Bikers into mainline combat units … you use their speed to hit weak targets, like artillery. Stormboys can wreck a unit of IG mortars, for instance, or deal with a 5-mean Devastator squad. Bikers can drive a unit of scouts off of a tactical objective just fine.
But you can't, you know, expect to mug a bunch of Terminators and get away with it.
You pay a premium for the SPEED of those units. Don't waste it.
Sorry, but that is a bunch of nonsense. Did you actually ever play these units?
"Can kill a unit of IG mortars" is not a quality. Literally everything can do that, especially all those extra big shootas we get on every other vehicle, we are talking about guardsmen with two wounds here. The only thing keeping these alive is screening and LOS blocking - which means unless your opponent is an idiot you will not be able to reach them turn one, and if they are sitting in a ruin, bikes can't ever touch them.
And when you say they can kill artillery, that's just wrong. They will bounce off artillery vehicles like basilisks, LRBT, doomsday arks or executioners, have no chance of actually harming a battle suit and won't even be able to take out a single TF cannon on average - assuming you actually get all 30 models into the fight. Heck, they'd even struggle killing mek guns. So the turn after you failed to destroy the artillery, they fall back and simply gun your 270 point unit down, assuming you even get that far. Most people will just focus down storm boyz first though, or might hit them with a stratagem that neuters them.
The one and only redeeming quality of storm boyz is being able to charge across the board turn one and thus restricting your opponent's ability to control the midfield and capture objectives, so you don't solely have to rely on the boyz you flung forward turn one. "You pay for the speed" is a joke when boy are already rather bad at killing anything that isn't lightly armored infantry and you lose green tide in comparison to them. At 9 points per wound they are still adding to the horde saturation, but they are very much a cannon fodder/utility with a low damage output.
Bikers have literally never been a melee unit, as 12 boyz are simply nothing to write home about, even less so in 8th. Their shooting is ok-ish, but not worth spending that many points on. Their sole reason for playing them at all is using the kult of speed detachment for *guaranteed* first turn charges/arrests and because they tend to last longer in combat than boyz with their 2W/T5/4+ profile against units like intercessors and other units which rely on S4 AP0 attacks. With 3-5CP and 280+ points, the price tag for this small boost in reliability over ESMANz is beyond what could be considered reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: Don't stormboyz already have 3 attacks base? 2 for being an ork, 1 for choppas? And if you pop a warpath on them that'll be 4 per lad. And you can have 30 of the buggers in a unit. That's 30 lads with 4 attacks a piece that can move 20" without a roll. Yeah you lose 1 in 6 for it but there's some power there. If it was anything less than 2pts extra from a boy there would be an issue right?
The thing is, warpath has a range of 18" while storm boyz move 20". Even if the weird boy can keep up, you are very much setting him up to be killed next turn, worst case by a smash captain or daemon prince using your psyker to slingshot himself into your army.
I've abandoned warpath for my vehicle list for this reason(now using fists/da jump and seizures/da jump), most of the time my psykers are jumping themselves to be in range for buffing or smiting stuff because otherwise they are forced to chose between being out of position or out of range. In a list running storm boyz, you are very much forced to jump boyz along with them to keep pressure up.
Reece in the frontlinegaming article "9th ed 40k on the Way!", in the comment section, said Horde armies were in for a tough time in 9th.
This confirms what many "fearmongers" were saying. Seems strange design to me, because horde armies could basically do nothing vs SM armies end of 9th (too many attacks in CC), so it seems strange that GW made it harder to play horde armies.
Monsters and dreads surely needed a push, but not at the expense of hordes IMHO.
We will see though because at the worst Hordes will be helped simply by being couter meta so I am not too scared honestly. I ordered stuff to kitbash 30 stormboyz, and I plan on using these loosers no matter what !!
yeah i dont trust a single thing Reece says, he's always way off. He has the hyper-casual mentality, which is why he thought the stompa was awesome because in a hyper-casual nobody has tons of anti vehicle or mega dangerous melee fast enough to get the charge on the stompa and pound it before it swings back.
Let's hope you guys are right. 40k is at it's best when monsters vehicules and infantry are all there, each usable in different ways, perhaps not totally equal though, because the meta will always slightly (if not more) benefit one over the other 2. But 8th was good for this, because only monsters lacked a little something. And really, all monsters needed was one or two extra rules don't you guys think ? They gave all SM many bonuses, could have just given one or two to monster units, and there you had it...
Anyway perhaps that is "monsters vehicules and infantry, no one left out" thing is important to me, not necessarily for other players, so sorry for the rambling
The problem with Monsters in 8th is they stripped ALL of their extra rules, didnt give them properly tweaked analogs as a replacement, didnt reduce their costs (relatively to other units), and the only strats that they can benefit from are the usual "That...was a standard ability before wtf" sort of thing.
Meanwhile Walkers are a Vehicle, and damn near all Vehicle strats do not exclude walkers, but all Infantry ones of course do exclude Monsters.
They have no utility other than whats printed on their datasheet, and none of them really have much there.
I found it weird that all of those special rules they just got for being a Monster went away completely. Sure, Smash literally translating to 8th would have been broken (all attacks are AP3 unless the weapon is better) and also redundant since a lot of them have pretty nasty melee attacks, but they should have kept the alternate attack pattern mentality at least.
Here's hoping they address that issue. Both for Tyranids' sake and now Ghazzy's.
Reece is a nice guy... but he isn’t the best at all at judging units...he’s usually wildly off on predictions. It’s good to listen to what he says on specifics but don’t take his opinion on anything.
While Reece I’m sure helped judge some of the 9th edition rules it actually sounds like Brandt has more say this edition and I expect Codex missions to very closely match nova missions now because of Brandt.
To be fair I don’t think orks are going to do well on 9th start as 9th is only a progression of 8th. Orks are losing ground with the current marines meta in 8th. I’m not expecting major ork improvements with 9th. I think guard will do much better in transition and tyranids it all depends if GW boosts monster units but being able to shoot and melee helps them the most. That’s pretty much the horde meta. Kinda demons too especially nurgle but they tend to have a more balanced book.
gungo most tyranid MCs are terrible at shooting, just the exocrine really, which is already quite good in current 8th ed (the only toughness 8 tyranid MC that saw play). So i don't think they will benefit much form that rule. Perhaps shooty carnifex will make a come back, but a shooty fex is 8 wounds for more than 100 points, so I dunno really... Imperial guard most def though, especially with tank ace. Nurgle demons I haven't seen mcuh of them during 8th.
If monsters extra rules for being monsters, then of course that could change absolutely everything, as current points don't take that into account.
BTW, 9th won't come with a "CA like" point readjustment, will it ? I heard nothing on that. I would like it if it did, or if a point adjustment came like 3 weeks after release of 9th. it would be bad if we had to wait until end of year CA
Yes it will, they mentioned there will be points adjustments. It might not affect everything though, presumably just vehicles/monsters getting rebalanced in price.
Wakshaani wrote: Well you don't shove STormboys or Bikers into mainline combat units … you use their speed to hit weak targets, like artillery. Stormboys can wreck a unit of IG mortars, for instance, or deal with a 5-mean Devastator squad. Bikers can drive a unit of scouts off of a tactical objective just fine.
But you can't, you know, expect to mug a bunch of Terminators and get away with it.
You pay a premium for the SPEED of those units. Don't waste it.
Sorry, but that is a bunch of nonsense. Did you actually ever play these units?
"Can kill a unit of IG mortars" is not a quality. Literally everything can do that, especially all those extra big shootas we get on every other vehicle, we are talking about guardsmen with two wounds here. The only thing keeping these alive is screening and LOS blocking - which means unless your opponent is an idiot you will not be able to reach them turn one, and if they are sitting in a ruin, bikes can't ever touch them.
Why do you assume turn 1? You move up out of LoS over a round or two before you strike on turn 3, or turn 2 if you get lucky. You're also using a small unit for this, not a large one, in order to hide it better, to fit in to smaller places better, and, since your offensive punch is limited, to be more surgical.
And when you say they can kill artillery, that's just wrong. They will bounce off artillery vehicles like basilisks, LRBT, doomsday arks or executioners, have no chance of actually harming a battle suit and won't even be able to take out a single TF cannon on average - assuming you actually get all 30 models into the fight. Heck, they'd even struggle killing mek guns.
So the turn after you failed to destroy the artillery, they fall back and simply gun your 270 point unit down, assuming you even get that far. Most people will just focus down storm boyz first though, or might hit them with a stratagem that neuters them.
The one and only redeeming quality of storm boyz is being able to charge across the board turn one and thus restricting your opponent's ability to control the midfield and capture objectives, so you don't solely have to rely on the boyz you flung forward turn one. "You pay for the speed" is a joke when boy are already rather bad at killing anything that isn't lightly armored infantry and you lose green tide in comparison to them.
At 9 points per wound they are still adding to the horde saturation, but they are very much a cannon fodder/utility with a low damage output.
Bikers have literally never been a melee unit, as 12 boyz are simply nothing to write home about, even less so in 8th. Their shooting is ok-ish, but not worth spending that many points on. Their sole reason for playing them at all is using the kult of speed detachment for *guaranteed* first turn charges/arrests and because they tend to last longer in combat than boyz with their 2W/T5/4+ profile against units like intercessors and other units which rely on S4 AP0 attacks. With 3-5CP and 280+ points, the price tag for this small boost in reliability over ESMANz is beyond what could be considered reasonable.
Artillery, not tanks. So mortar teams, hive guard, Thunderfire cannons, etc. That last one's better for the Stormboys than the bikes, since the Techmarine is going to move in to save his gun with a power fist (and bikes REALLY don't like being fisted!) etc.
And, again, why on Earth is your bike squad 270 points instead of 69-110? You'll never be able to use a unit that big in a tactical role. Getting out of LoS is impossible for a unit of 6+ and they're such a big threat at that stage that they'll attract far too much firepower. 3-5 bikes a tactical strike makes.
If your entire gameplan is to throw these kinds of units out for turn 1 charges as "their only use" man, I don't know what to tell you. That's just *way* too aggressive. That's a fragile unit hurled into the middle of the enemy's force while they're still at full power, which is just dooming them to a hail of fire and dying without accomplishing much. You gotta have a plan and you gotta be *kunning*, you know? It's like the guys who put their Lootas front and center on the board, trusting grots to save them, only to see them poof on turn 2... "Well, I got to shoot them once, so it's good." … instead of putting them on a corner, at an angle that'll reduce incoming fire, post at range, and try to get them through the whole game... maybe they don't go out in a blaze of glory, but they'll workhorse all the same.
I don't know what your local scene looks like but man, you play a different game than we do.
gungo wrote: Reece is a nice guy... but he isn’t the best at all at judging units...he’s usually wildly off on predictions. It’s good to listen to what he says on specifics but don’t take his opinion on anything.
While Reece I’m sure helped judge some of the 9th edition rules it actually sounds like Brandt has more say this edition and I expect Codex missions to very closely match nova missions now because of Brandt.
100% agree. Reece might love playing orks but he has proven over and over again that he doesn't actually know what he is talking about and when you look at how well he does with orks compared to armies he plays, the results speak for themselves.
He is just one of those marine/eldar/tau players who has orks as a side project because he like the models and the fluff and should be treated as such.
I've heard that rumor has it that GW has stopped working with FLG for playtesting, is there any proof of this, or is this just a baseless rumor?
addnid wrote: gungo most tyranid MCs are terrible at shooting, just the exocrine really, which is already quite good in current 8th ed (the only toughness 8 tyranid MC that saw play). So i don't think they will benefit much form that rule. Perhaps shooty carnifex will make a come back, but a shooty fex is 8 wounds for more than 100 points, so I dunno really... Imperial guard most def though, especially with tank ace. Nurgle demons I haven't seen mcuh of them during 8th.
If monsters extra rules for being monsters, then of course that could change absolutely everything, as current points don't take that into account.
BTW, 9th won't come with a "CA like" point readjustment, will it ? I heard nothing on that. I would like it if it did, or if a point adjustment came like 3 weeks after release of 9th. it would be bad if we had to wait until end of year CA
I expect a massive faq and errata... I expect some points adjustments but not a ton and I expect some profile adjustments but not a ton... they also completely skipped the spring faq....
I’m not saying tyranids are going to be shooting all stars. I’m saying tyranids have a crap ton of monsters and that small change to shoot in melee is like an across the board improvement even if it’s minor. Heck ghaz shooting kinda sucks and I’m still happy he got it to help clear chaff which I one of his issues. Let’s also not forget monster will likely be able to charge units in ruins/buildings supposedly. All these small adjustments should add up. Maybe not make them tier 1 competitive but my point was I don’t see orks improving a ton in 9th compared to other hordes which should transition better. Heck straffing runs on our planes wouldn really help much either we just want to blow them up now.
gungo wrote: Reece is a nice guy... but he isn’t the best at all at judging units...he’s usually wildly off on predictions. It’s good to listen to what he says on specifics but don’t take his opinion on anything.
While Reece I’m sure helped judge some of the 9th edition rules it actually sounds like Brandt has more say this edition and I expect Codex missions to very closely match nova missions now because of Brandt.
100% agree. Reece might love playing orks but he has proven over and over again that he doesn't actually know what he is talking about and when you look at how well he does with orks compared to armies he plays, the results speak for themselves.
He is just one of those marine/eldar/tau players who has orks as a side project because he like the models and the fluff and should be treated as such.
I've heard that rumor has it that GW has stopped working with FLG for playtesting, is there any proof of this, or is this just a baseless rumor?
If Reece publically is talking about seeing 9th edition rules he’s likely still part of the playtesters.. however Reece was busy last year so he may not have had as much contact as Brandt who is now officially working at GW.
To be fair 40k is what 18 separate armies now? It’s a pain to balance and keep updated. But 9th edition sounds like a good cleanup minus the fact I hate there is like 5 books with relics and strats subkulturs and specialized detachments and vehicle ace/kustom jobs and Like 5 faq/chapter approved Updates ... and you get the idea.. it’s kinda of a rules mess and they said they are keeping everything legal.
I just want 1 new codex where they compile all this stuff into 1 coherent set of rules. I don’t care if it’s digital only and they just update the FAQs directly into it. But I hate to constantly cross check all these units... my iPad has been a savior this addition.
I hope the CP cost is related to different codices and not detachments/klans. Mixed klans is both fluffy for orks and has been critical to competitive ork lists.
Wakshaani wrote: Why do you assume turn 1? You move up out of LoS over a round or two before you strike on turn 3, or turn 2 if you get lucky. You're also using a small unit for this, not a large one, in order to hide it better, to fit in to smaller places better, and, since your offensive punch is limited, to be more surgical.
Ok, I'll try to explain it, hoping you have interest in an actual discussion and not just in being right.
- Even if you bring 90 storm boyz, 60 of those tend to be dead by turn 2 unless you manage to wrap something. The armies I play have no issues killing 60 boyz in their first turn.
- You are suggesting to move up out of LoS against units with the ability to ignore LoS.
- Low model counts makes them easier to kill through morale and reduces the chance of them actually harming the target unit.
Artillery, not tanks. So mortar teams, hive guard, Thunderfire cannons, etc.
30 Storm boyz kill 0 thunderfire cannons on the charge, and you kill 1 hive guard per 10 storm boyz. Neither is particularly impressive nor worth the points invested, assuming you get there in the first place.
That last one's better for the Stormboys than the bikes, since the Techmarine is going to move in to save his gun with a power fist (and bikes REALLY don't like being fisted!) etc.
Those "power fists" are called servo arms, get only two attacks, fail half of the time and usually kill no more than two bikes.
Getting into combat with a TF cannon is hitting the jackport and worth two bikes crushed by servo arms, it would have much more damage if left unchecked and is difficult to kill through shooting.
Even better if the techmarine can be attacked by the killsaw nob. I'm fairly well acquainted with this particular scenario, and servo arms were never part of the equation.
And, again, why on Earth is your bike squad 270 points instead of 69-110? You'll never be able to use a unit that big in a tactical role.
They can advance 28" turn one and charge with the help of a wartrike or warboss. They can get pretty much anywhere on the board, and surround any unit that is not fully screened. Worst case you can consolidate 2d6 and tag anything you can get your hands on.
Anyone who has been caught off guard by them once will be careful to not leave anything out in the open, costing them a lot of board control.
Less models will cause the arrest to break once you take casualties, if you have enough models to surround units at all.
Unless your opponent has a powerful counter-charge unit to break them out, bikers usually hold down the units they charged until the rest of army catches up and finishes the fight.
Getting out of LoS is impossible for a unit of 6+ and they're such a big threat at that stage that they'll attract far too much firepower.
You can not get shot if you are locked in combat with an enemy that has no way of falling back - which is the whole point of playing bikes.
3-5 bikes a tactical strike makes.
And what exactly you plan to "tactical strike" with a unit that struggles to kill a unit of guardsmen?
If your entire gameplan is to throw these kinds of units out for turn 1 charges as "their only use" man, I don't know what to tell you. That's just *way* too aggressive. That's a fragile unit hurled into the middle of the enemy's force while they're still at full power, which is just dooming them to a hail of fire and dying without accomplishing much. You gotta have a plan and you gotta be *kunning*, you know? It's like the guys who put their Lootas front and center on the board, trusting grots to save them, only to see them poof on turn 2... "Well, I got to shoot them once, so it's good." … instead of putting them on a corner, at an angle that'll reduce incoming fire, post at range, and try to get them through the whole game... maybe they don't go out in a blaze of glory, but they'll workhorse all the same. I don't know what your local scene looks like but man, you play a different game than we do.
My scene has too much firepower that I could hide ork units through an entire game or afford to have parts of my army not participating in the game. And just for the record, I haven't exactly lost a lot of games during 8th.
My semi-competitive opponents, even the new guys, would wipe me off the table if I followed your advice. There is no "hide out of LoS" if your opponents have things like planes, bikes, deep striking melee units or other highly mobile units - stuff essential to winning the CA 2019 missions.
When you want to hold back a unit for surgical strike, you need to protect them by the tellyporta or character rules.
A unit of lootas will die by turn 2, no matter where you hide it - the only difference is that when you hide them, you get no good shooting out of them unless you have an incompetent opponent who put valuable targets in their firing lanes.
Orks have no staying power, against a decent opponent you cannot keep your stuff alive and hide it for three or four turns, the only way to prevent just getting shot off the board is by disrupting your opponent's game plan.
You do that by forcing multiple units (usually boyz) onto your opponent, preventing them from moving out of their deployment zone, forcing them to handle the threat in their face instead of more valuable or dangerous targets. Meanwhile your shooting destroys the targets which are most dangerous to your strategy while you spread out your army to cover the board and objectives. This buys your army enough time to get into place for turn two, the competitive infantry lists follow up with more boyz through tellyporta, endless green tide and da jump. In a vehicle based list, you just keep blasting apart anything that's good at killing vehicles and tagging shooting units - eventually you will run out of army, but you will most likely win because your enemy is still sitting in his deployment zone, with not enough time left to catch up on your VP lead.
The only way I can imagine an ork army winning by holding back and letting the opponent do as he pleases is when there is a massive difference in player skill or list power.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dendarien wrote: I hope the CP cost is related to different codices and not detachments/klans. Mixed klans is both fluffy for orks and has been critical to competitive ork lists.
We already know that additional detachments will cost points.
Mixed clan will not go away, it will just be an actual decision whether it's worth spending CP your on extra clans instead of a no-brainer.
BTW, 9th won't come with a "CA like" point readjustment, will it ? I heard nothing on that. I would like it if it did, or if a point adjustment came like 3 weeks after release of 9th. it would be bad if we had to wait until end of year CA
The saturda FAQ mentioned points gettig revisited. Didn't say when but sounded it would be with 9th ed. Fits also how AOS is done and besides gives extra booklet for GW to sell on launch so I'm expecting one.
They could...But they make more money by putting it on sale separately. With GW I expect them to do things the way that costs players most money. That way I can only be pleasantly surprised!
Lots of discussion on storm boys
I was just saying I’d like to see them get a strategem to boost their damage.
1cp the unit gets +1atk, +1str on the charge or when charged
Or +1 atk -1ap
And give zagstruk reroll hit roll of 1 for stormboys
Their speed is good their damage sucks thier durability isn’t great but that shouldn’t be thier strength. I rather see warbikers gain -1 to hit. And a stratagem As well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: They said the rulebook will be free so i'd be shocked if the points are in it as well.
The last free rule book was barebones. You still had to pay for actual stuff beyond basic rules.
Wakshaani wrote: Why do you assume turn 1? You move up out of LoS over a round or two before you strike on turn 3, or turn 2 if you get lucky. You're also using a small unit for this, not a large one, in order to hide it better, to fit in to smaller places better, and, since your offensive punch is limited, to be more surgical.
Ok, I'll try to explain it, hoping you have interest in an actual discussion and not just in being right.
- Even if you bring 90 storm boyz, 60 of those tend to be dead by turn 2 unless you manage to wrap something. The armies I play have no issues killing 60 boyz in their first turn.
- You are suggesting to move up out of LoS against units with the ability to ignore LoS.
- Low model counts makes them easier to kill through morale and reduces the chance of them actually harming the target unit.
Well, that's less of a discussion, more you taking a tone of "I am the top wisdom and you shold bow before me" and just trying to state reality.
That's not really a back and forth, but hey. No worries! You're clearly playing a different game than we are. You have your fun at your tables. We'll have fun at ours. It's all good!
So the demon's tease for engine wars have shown yet another way to turn off aura's from characters. It really seems like GW is adding more and more ways to do so, kind of interesting right? Have they been listening to players complain about the buff stacking and offering these options?
Vineheart01 wrote: They said the rulebook will be free so i'd be shocked if the points are in it as well.
The free rules are basically same as what are now except updated. You still would need actual rulebook for missions, matched play rules etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: So the demon's tease for engine wars have shown yet another way to turn off aura's from characters. It really seems like GW is adding more and more ways to do so, kind of interesting right? Have they been listening to players complain about the buff stacking and offering these options?
Quite possibly. Wonder is there anything that says ork characters don't get mob rule LD for the roll off? IF they get then that's even less scary than the ad mech one. Though easier to get in range and more powerful if it pulls off so for non-orks more of a worry.
Vineheart01 wrote: They said the rulebook will be free so i'd be shocked if the points are in it as well.
The free rules are basically same as what are now except updated. You still would need actual rulebook for missions, matched play rules etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: So the demon's tease for engine wars have shown yet another way to turn off aura's from characters. It really seems like GW is adding more and more ways to do so, kind of interesting right? Have they been listening to players complain about the buff stacking and offering these options?
Quite possibly. Wonder is there anything that says ork characters don't get mob rule LD for the roll off? IF they get then that's even less scary than the ad mech one. Though easier to get in range and more powerful if it pulls off so for non-orks more of a worry.
Aye, I immediately thought the same. Thank goodness there's no more nonsense about fear tests, moral tests, leadership tests. It's all just the one value now so our rules actually interact with each of them rather then just some. xP So bloody grateful for that. It's also of note that GW has referred to Auras in recent stratagems and rules a few times. Have we in the past had a good definition of what an AURA is? Is mob rule by definition an aura due to the LD sharing effect?
Agree, I'm not too worried about the aura blocking, especially if mob rule matters. What, I'm way more worried about is our tzeench player using his exalted Lord of Change to switch off da jump and smite for the rest of the game. The thing is almost unkillable and with its new ability it could completely neuter a warphead for the rest of the game each turn.
Yeh that's scary. Luckily I always try to have 2 da jumps and with +2/+3 to cast orks have denying spell isn't easiest but for orks certainly scarier than the daemon aura negating.
Afrodactyl wrote: Hopefully the FAQ for the new rulebook will actually tell us what is and isn't an "aura".
I seriously hope that mob rule isn't an aura, because having one of your basic rules shut down just because is a bit much.
Odds are it's simple. Any ability that affects units within X".
Anyway at most that would negate character getting LD boost from nearby guys. Tzeentch needs to have some pretty nasty LD combo before I worry about that.
BTW noticed it's leadership characteristic...maybe mob rule doesn't help vs that. Still it's not the mob rule I would worry. I think I can live without LD30 on character. It's the KFF I would be more worried about.
tneva82 wrote: Yeh that's scary. Luckily I always try to have 2 da jumps and with +2/+3 to cast orks have denying spell isn't easiest but for orks certainly scarier than the daemon aura negating.
A LoC has +2 to denies though as well, so its chance is still decent.
Ah right that I wasn't aware. Only guy who plays with tzeentch daemons here is the resident backup player and playing vs him would require staying so late I would have less than 2h to play before last train so...
That certainly endangers da jump. Well LOC's aren't impossible to kill but certainly makes backup da jump even more essential.
I face them pretty regular, one player has been playing tzeench daemons for ages and just added a TS detachment to them, and two others occasional bring them as part of TS or chaos undivided lists.
They usually field them with an impossible robe, which means you need to grind through 16 T7/3++ wounds, which is almost never worth the trouble. It's much easier to just tarpit him with boyz or gretchin, but I guess that's no longer an option now.
Why do you assume turn 1? You move up out of LoS over a round or two before you strike on turn 3, or turn 2 if you get lucky. You're also using a small unit for this, not a large one, in order to hide it better, to fit in to smaller places better, and, since your offensive punch is limited, to be more surgical
Artillery, not tanks. So mortar teams, hive guard, Thunderfire cannons, etc. That last one's better for the Stormboys than the bikes, since the Techmarine is going to move in to save his gun with a power fist (and bikes REALLY don't like being fisted!) etc.
And, again, why on Earth is your bike squad 270 points instead of 69-110? You'll never be able to use a unit that big in a tactical role. Getting out of LoS is impossible for a unit of 6+ and they're such a big threat at that stage that they'll attract far too much firepower. 3-5 bikes a tactical strike makes.
I am sorry, but I really dislike this argument. Every time someone brings up durability as an issue someone inevitably says "Stay out of LOS" as if people weren't already doing that. Boards aren't always littered with giant LOS block terrain, and most of the time the stuff you want to tag with bikes/stormboyz is protected by screens which inhibit your ability to stay out of LOS the entire time.
As far as "Small unit" yes, there is some tactical sense in that sometimes, for bikes/stormboyz not so much. Lets say you take 10 Stormboyz or 5 bikes to be "tactical". A screening unit of 10 IG Guardsmen with FRFSRF can merc about 3 Stormboyz at range and 6 in close before over watch. Even killing 3 at range they are now down to Leadership 4 so you have a 1/3rd chance to lose another 1 or 2, if they lose 6....they are likely dead and even if they survive they won't survive over watch. As for bikes, You are losing 1-2 at range and about 3 at 12' range. Again, if they even get in charge range they will have to deal with the speed bump unit which can effectively keep them tied up in CC, retreat on their turn and then blast your unit to hell. Theoretical arguments are useful, but rarely do I see units I want to tag with CC units that are not heavily screened, nor are they left close enough to the frontlines where my opponent won't get at least 1 turn to gut whatever units I send to try and run the flank and attack his rear lines.
If your entire gameplan is to throw these kinds of units out for turn 1 charges as "their only use" man, I don't know what to tell you. That's just *way* too aggressive. That's a fragile unit hurled into the middle of the enemy's force while they're still at full power, which is just dooming them to a hail of fire and dying without accomplishing much. You gotta have a plan and you gotta be *kunning*, you know? It's like the guys who put their Lootas front and center on the board, trusting grots to save them, only to see them poof on turn 2... "Well, I got to shoot them once, so it's good." … instead of putting them on a corner, at an angle that'll reduce incoming fire, post at range, and try to get them through the whole game... maybe they don't go out in a blaze of glory, but they'll workhorse all the same.
I don't know what your local scene looks like but man, you play a different game than we do.
Zerging enemy armies turn 1 is absolutely a kunning plan. I've done it a few times myself, surprising my opponent with how fast Ork units can be. A lot of the time, the enemy has a game plan that gets thrown out the window turn 1 when the unit he needed to stay alive is now either dead or tied up in CC and he then has to use his reserve units he wanted to wait until turn 2-3 to deep strike into my lines is now stuck deploying in his own lines while my Gun Line obliterates the scary stuff I don't want around later in the game. If you have ever faced off against a player who didn't understand/know about Da Jump you will understand the joy of sheer panic written across your opponents face as 30 boyz appear in his lines and ties up several important units.
addnid wrote: Reece in the frontlinegaming article "9th ed 40k on the Way!", in the comment section, said Horde armies were in for a tough time in 9th.
This confirms what many "fearmongers" were saying. Seems strange design to me, because horde armies could basically do nothing vs SM armies end of 9th (too many attacks in CC), so it seems strange that GW made it harder to play horde armies.
Monsters and dreads surely needed a push, but not at the expense of hordes IMHO.
We will see though because at the worst Hordes will be helped simply by being couter meta so I am not too scared honestly. I ordered stuff to kitbash 30 stormboyz, and I plan on using these loosers no matter what !!
Reece lost all credibility when talking about orkz. I am sure he is a cool guy and doesn't mean to be misleading but he was the man who said that Killa Kanz and the Stompa would be amazing in 8th.
Horde armies were already in a bad place in 8th with the power creep allowing armies to delete upwards of 60-90 boyz a turn. In my opinion, if IG Guardsmen are 4pts each with a better save, BS,standard weapon than Ork boyz at 7pts should have a 5+ save as well. Hell, a Tau firewarrior has a 30' S5 rapid fire weapon at BS4 and has a 4+ save at 7pts. Which on a tangent, always made me wonder why Tau players didn't ever attempt a Firewarrior Horde army. You can pick a Sept which gives all your guys a cover save (3+ firewarriors), one that increases the range by 6 (36' range weapon and double tapping at 18)or a sept that lets you overwatch on 5s. I don't know about you, but facing off against 200 Firewarriors who hit on 4s and can double tap at 18 with 3 shots (fireblade bonus) all at S5...no thanks.
i actually did before i sold my tau, because Index Tau it was literally all they could do since everything was 2x the price what it is now for them lol.
It was comical, but fell flat against phat targets since their tanks suck and its either tanks or fusion suits to deal with vehicles reliably.
They can fire 4 shots at i think it was 18" due to the increased Pulse range effect. WHen you got 60 firewarriors thats...alot of dakka...
Vineheart01 wrote: i actually did before i sold my tau, because Index Tau it was literally all they could do since everything was 2x the price what it is now for them lol.
It was comical, but fell flat against phat targets since their tanks suck and its either tanks or fusion suits to deal with vehicles reliably.
They can fire 4 shots at i think it was 18" due to the increased Pulse range effect. WHen you got 60 firewarriors thats...alot of dakka...
LMAO, even 3 shots that is amazing. A 10 fish unit is getting 15 hits (ignoring the reroll 1s) and against boyz thats 10 wounds for likely 8-9 dead boyz. Congrats, you almost made back your units cost in 1 shooting phase
I faced a Tau player in a tournament where he had 2 blobs of 40 Firewarriors on the table. The goal was to overwatch me to death and on his turn just shoot everything to death. I beat him only because I had a 25 blob of Lootas. Turn 1 I went first and rolled 3 shots while multi targeting all 4 units split roughly evenly. Turned out to do WAY above average hits (50) and after wound and save rolls he had 5 left spread out over 3 units they shot again using the strat and merced another 2 units of firewarriors and that was just about game over, especially when my Da Jumping boys slammed into his broadsides who were now deprived of their overwatch protection.
It does require both an ethereal and a fireblade cadre around though so since Farsight Enclaves is "the thing" now that all tau do you definitely wont ever see it happen again.
I even told my roommate about that since he started getting tau and he just went "yeah but...suits!" lol.
I´ll listen to that tomorrow, I have 20 MANz that are in dire need of crushing skulls. However Reece is the the guy behind : Stompa in 8th is gonna be a thing...
Emicrania wrote: I´ll listen to that tomorrow, I have 20 MANz that are in dire need of crushing skulls. However Reece is the the guy behind : Stompa in 8th is gonna be a thing...
Although needing to be taken with some grains of salt, it sounds like they want to encourage faster games, which they are saying are more elite armies. More changes than just blast weapons.
Basically a tournament game should take two hours instead of 3.
To be honest though, that’s fine with me. And a more elite focused ork army is fun to play anyway. Taking an hour to deploy 90 boys and 60 Grots is not.
An ork list made of nothing but the nob class of unit would be pretty fun and interesting. Would not enjoy autocannons or overcharged plasma guns in the slightest but it would still be fun.
cody.d. wrote: An ork list made of nothing but the nob class of unit would be pretty fun and interesting. Would not enjoy autocannons or overcharged plasma guns in the slightest but it would still be fun.
If Deathskulls retain Obsec and that means the same thing as this edition, I have no clue why you wouldn't mount 10 Nobs + 2 ammo runts over 12 boys in a trukk.
And 10 nobs in a trukk sounds way more fun than 12 boys. Loot it when it pops for a 3+ armour save and we can pretend we have Intercessors.
cody.d. wrote: An ork list made of nothing but the nob class of unit would be pretty fun and interesting. Would not enjoy autocannons or overcharged plasma guns in the slightest but it would still be fun.
If Deathskulls retain Obsec and that means the same thing as this edition, I have no clue why you wouldn't mount 10 Nobs + 2 ammo runts over 12 boys in a trukk.
And 10 nobs in a trukk sounds way more fun than 12 boys. Loot it when it pops for a 3+ armour save and we can pretend we have Intercessors.
Personally I'd lean more towards a battlewagon, a bit more pricy I'll admit but I do so love a deffrolla or two rocking about.
I do miss the old concept of leaders mixing around the force org charts a bit. It was fun, fluffy, made things more interesting. Though current force org charts and the rule of 3 do sort of lessen it's power. Having 5 deffdreads in 4th addition because you took 2 big meks actually had some power to it. Same for nobs.
Troop nobz with a dedicated troops battlewagon were golden times.
But if you don't need troops for CP, nobz might actually be a valid alternative, especially im tneva's rumor turns out to be true and units of 10 don't count as hordes.
Considering really the only reason i dont use footnobz is the troop tax is so high the nobz take the place of a buggy/plane/wagon or cut into the Naut funds by the time i have troops/HQs figured out.
If we can get away with a single detachment in 9th i'll totally be using nobz again. They can hit hard, they just generally dont hit much harder than a full boy blob.
Especially with Primaris around they SHOULD have been moved to troops i agree. Meganobz being Elite makes sense, regular nobz not so much any more.
Vineheart01 wrote: Especially with Primaris around they SHOULD have been moved to troops i agree. Meganobz being Elite makes sense, regular nobz not so much any more.
For me it was when Tyranid Warriors went from HQ/Elites to Troop choice. But yes I certainly agree with Meganobz staying Elites, Nob Bikers as well.
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering really the only reason i dont use footnobz is the troop tax is so high the nobz take the place of a buggy/plane/wagon or cut into the Naut funds by the time i have troops/HQs figured out.
If we can get away with a single detachment in 9th i'll totally be using nobz again. They can hit hard, they just generally dont hit much harder than a full boy blob.
Especially with Primaris around they SHOULD have been moved to troops i agree. Meganobz being Elite makes sense, regular nobz not so much any more.
Deathskull brigade I will wager will be a thing at 2000.
But yeah, if the prediction is “you’ll see gak in trucks and rhinos again” and if the only reason to take troops is Obsec, I have zero clue why you’d take boys over DS nobs given what we know about 9th.
I think unstoppable green tide will become even harder to pull off, and staying above 20 the same deal.
Hell if tanks make a comeback, primaris killers might ease off a bit too.
Nobz definitely make sense as troops IMO, especially lore-wise if they're emphasizing as Ghaz becoming more of the next Beast level Warboss, it corresponds with Orks becoming bigger and nastier, like the ones in the Octarius war with the Nids. To represent that without new models, having Nobz as troops to show the spread of bigger ladz makes sense and it doesn't break the balance of the game either.
“ The Command phase is a quick new addition to the turn sequence. In this phase, Battle-forged armies will acquire new Command points and spend the ones they have on certain Stratagems.”
Armies regenerate CP. holy moly. This could be great and terrifying for us.
probably means they went to an AoS system, where you rarely have more than 3CP at any given time unless you stockpile intentionally.
Wouldnt be surprised if its something like 6CP base (given they said it costs CP to do things like reserves/extra detachments) and 3 every turn, possibly extra for certain parties *cough marines cough*
Could be battallions generate 5 a turn
Brigades generate 3 a turn etc
It’s actually a better system less alpha strikey and games over by turn 3
This makes me hope they give ghaz a small update in whatever faq they do and give him +1 cp a turn.. this might make him a bit more worthwhile and a reason to take him.
Vineheart01 wrote: probably means they went to an AoS system, where you rarely have more than 3CP at any given time unless you stockpile intentionally.
Wouldnt be surprised if its something like 6CP base (given they said it costs CP to do things like reserves/extra detachments) and 3 every turn, possibly extra for certain parties *cough marines cough*
Hopefully not that restrictive. Our pregame can easily be 8+ CP, and it's not like it's OP like super insane auras (How fast is Admech gonna be FAQed lol), it's just fixing units from Saga of the Beast or tossing them in the porta.
If they wanna encourage our mech army they better let us buff our units.
gungo wrote: Could be battallions generate 5 a turn
Brigades generate 3 a turn etc
It’s actually a better system less alpha strikey and games over by turn 3
This makes me hope they give ghaz a small update in whatever faq they do and give him +1 cp a turn.. this might make him a bit more worthwhile and a reason to take him.
I highly doubt you're generating CP based on the detachment, that would make it even worse than it currently is on troop/hq tax for more cp. One of the thing they specifically said they wanted to stop, all armies get the same CP based on game size.
More than likely the only extra cp would be the few that just get more CP from certain characters. Outside that, everybody gets the same. Which on that note, i wonder if they'll faq out those perks and reduce the characters cost a bit. Otherwise i suspect we'd see them a LOT more than before just for that CP edge.
gungo wrote: Could be battallions generate 5 a turn
Brigades generate 3 a turn etc
It’s actually a better system less alpha strikey and games over by turn 3
This makes me hope they give ghaz a small update in whatever faq they do and give him +1 cp a turn.. this might make him a bit more worthwhile and a reason to take him.
That would go against their stated goal "no more loyal 32 CP batteries".
Per turn or once, you would still have loyal 32 batteries.
tulun wrote: “ The Command phase is a quick new addition to the turn sequence. In this phase, Battle-forged armies will acquire new Command points and spend the ones they have on certain Stratagems.”
Armies regenerate CP. holy moly. This could be great and terrifying for us.
gungo wrote: Could be battallions generate 5 a turn
Brigades generate 3 a turn etc
It’s actually a better system less alpha strikey and games over by turn 3
This makes me hope they give ghaz a small update in whatever faq they do and give him +1 cp a turn.. this might make him a bit more worthwhile and a reason to take him.
CPs generated by controlling objectives each turn, does that sound possible for you ?
Would make it hard to come back in a game where one is pushed hard into the ropes, by an SM Alpha strike for example.
Jidmah wrote: Hopefully we get enough CP to use all our kustom jobs - having all the new toys taken away only a few months later would suck bad.
The real fear.
If they dont give us at least 8CP to start, orks are gonna be hamstrung. Lack of kustom jobs, biggest boss, kleverest mek, or tellyporta would hurt big time.
Jidmah wrote: Hopefully we get enough CP to use all our kustom jobs - having all the new toys taken away only a few months later would suck bad.
The real fear.
If they dont give us at least 8CP to start, orks are gonna be hamstrung. Lack of kustom jobs, biggest boss, kleverest mek, or tellyporta would hurt big time.
Don't forget Warphead, Vigilus, extra relic...
If we don't start with 10, they've nerfed our army badly I reckon.
You don't really need to give him a warlord trait, he will destroy anything he touches anyways. With 4++ and +1W doing it twice also has become much less of a challenge, it's really a huge difference to before SotB.
new edition aside (as we don't know that much aside from the changes to CP), I'd like some advice with Trukks.
I always ran trukks, and plenty of them. I once had a gae with 12 trukks in it, though that was back when they were 35 points each!
I've heard it thrown around a lot that trukks aren't really worth it at their current points, but I've never been one to be dissuaded so easily. I'm thinking of running shootaboys in trukks for my trops, and then flashgits and lootas in trukks for my heavy support.
The way I figure it, transports are just bad for CC, and as that's what we've always needed them for, thetrukk has seemed a bit meh. I'm now thinking that they have some serious advantages for shooting units in particular;
- Moving into a good position and shooting, using a much better movement than the infantry would have.
- getting all-or-nothing line of sight for the unit inside, which is pretty decent for lootas
- 10 T6 4+ ablative wounds before the unit starts to lose damage output, which is pretty good for most ork infantry, I'd say.
- Loot It, to gain armour on flashgits. I'd only use it on lootas as a 6+ save unit, because I'd want them in cover and you might keep the CP. I wouldn't waste it on any boys!
- rapid redeployment of your army if the enemy is charging down your throat, trukks can move pretty swiftly, even if it reduces your damage output a little for heavy weapons inside
I'm going to throw together an all-transport list for open-topped shooting for when I'm allowed to see my mates again, and see how it does. Does anyone else have advice for the best use of the Trukk these days?
Jidmah wrote: I guess the SSAG has suddenly become much less of an auto-pick.
I'm not sure this is true... if monsters and vehicles make a resurgence, our Big Boss Killa SSAG is better than ever, as he's one of the few units we got that gets bonuses to Monsters, and he can easily pop two with hot dice for 2 CP.
I think our Saga feast may be cut short if we don't get enough CP. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
some bloke wrote:
new edition aside (as we don't know that much aside from the changes to CP), I'd like some advice with Trukks.
I think mass Chinork would serve you better than mass Trukk, simply because they can Fly. Only question is if it goes to Legends with the new FW book.
So If terrain matters, and there is a possiblility on less cp at the start of the game to fuel kustom jobs, is it now feasible that a Mek Boy Workshop is useful?
Haasbioroid wrote: So If terrain matters, and there is a possiblility on less cp at the start of the game to fuel kustom jobs, is it now feasible that a Mek Boy Workshop is useful?
Highly unlikely. Unless you roll that 6 to get a permanant upgrade in pretty much every case you'll get more for your money by simply moving/shooting twice or spending the 80pts it costs on another unit.
cody.d. wrote: Hopefully they don't change the current bikerboss keywords though. Having that bastard with Biggest boss is a killer.
I can totally see the bikerboss getting the speedbosss keyword in the new forgeworld book... my only hope is they do a heck and slash job in the book and don’t change it.
Also the chinork is gone and 99% sure it’s going to legends since they have no intention of redoing the molds.
I’ve been playing orks since the end of 2nd edition I have have multiple of nearly every ork model.. including a bunch of stuff that’s no longer usable (heck I threw out a bunch of old armor cast ork tanks (gobsplitta and gobsmasha and original wagon)... I’d just like for once to see the stompa get semi decent rules. I never built the model but there is like a short moment during 6th edition the kustom stompa using misprinted points cost was good!!! That’s about as close as we got!
Sadly that seems rather likely. Maybe the occasional upgrade sprue but I doubt there's any reason for them to roll out kits now that GW itself has really ramped up it's production speeds. No real niche for them to fill. Except maybe a resin Gorgutz like Angelos.
Jidmah wrote: Agree, I'm not too worried about the aura blocking, especially if mob rule matters.
What, I'm way more worried about is our tzeench player using his exalted Lord of Change to switch off da jump and smite for the rest of the game. The thing is almost unkillable and with its new ability it could completely neuter a warphead for the rest of the game each turn.
doesn't the LOC have to get within 18 inches of your weirdboy to deny, if hes that close turn 1 it should be pretty easy to focus it down if you deploy far away from it
Jidmah wrote: Agree, I'm not too worried about the aura blocking, especially if mob rule matters.
What, I'm way more worried about is our tzeench player using his exalted Lord of Change to switch off da jump and smite for the rest of the game. The thing is almost unkillable and with its new ability it could completely neuter a warphead for the rest of the game each turn.
doesn't the LOC have to get within 18 inches of your weirdboy to deny, if hes that close turn 1 it should be pretty easy to focus it down if you deploy far away from it
Why would LOC have to get closer than random psyker? 24" range isn't that short.
Jidmah wrote: Agree, I'm not too worried about the aura blocking, especially if mob rule matters.
What, I'm way more worried about is our tzeench player using his exalted Lord of Change to switch off da jump and smite for the rest of the game. The thing is almost unkillable and with its new ability it could completely neuter a warphead for the rest of the game each turn.
doesn't the LOC have to get within 18 inches of your weirdboy to deny, if hes that close turn 1 it should be pretty easy to focus it down if you deploy far away from it
Not it's 24" like anything else, and it's the very opposite of "easy to focus down". If you try to kill it T1, it is very likely the only thing you'll do that turn and still have a chance to fail.
The only 'right' way to handle a LoC until now was tarpitting it with boyz, everything else just makes you lose the game.
Why is a Lord of Change such a problem for us ? (i am assuming Loc = lord of change). Chaos Demons (aside from nurgle / DG stuff) is the one army i haven't faced more than 2 or 3 times during all 8th
addnid wrote: Why is a Lord of Change such a problem for us ? (i am assuming Loc = lord of change). Chaos Demons (aside from nurgle / DG stuff) is the one army i haven't faced more than 2 or 3 times during all 8th
Issue would be every time it dispels your spell it goes poof. No more da jump. No more warpath. No more smite. Well unless you have multiple weirdboy with da jump for example.
Of course if you don't use weirdboys much it's less of a issue.
some bloke wrote: new edition aside (as we don't know that much aside from the changes to CP), I'd like some advice with Trukks.
I still use them, I can't at all say I'm happy with them, but there are uses to find. I use them as roadblocks/CC bullies after their contents have gotten out to sit on objectives. They're also good for padding out the T6 wound count on my vehicle heavy army, making my opponent have to think harder about target priority in their first couple shooting phases.
And they have a +2 to that dispel at full health. I'm torn on the LoC though as it's a fairly pricey model that usually doesn't do enough damage to justify its points. You can make the super durable, without a doubt, but they're only really good in the psychic phase.
It might be a game changer for us (I really don't know, but leaning no as of right now), but it is a very fluffy thing for tzeentch to be able to do so I'm not mad at it.
Ah ok thanks tneva and pinacolada. I usually play 2-3 weirdboyz but if I face dark angels for example with the once a game auto dispel Deathwing warlord trait, or iron hands, i just don't plan around da jump actually working.
So if LoC is just our spells not going off reliably, then it is not as bad a sniper spam for us IMHO
addnid wrote: Why is a Lord of Change such a problem for us ? (i am assuming Loc = lord of change). Chaos Demons (aside from nurgle / DG stuff) is the one army i haven't faced more than 2 or 3 times during all 8th
Horror+Lord of Change+flux caster or changeling is an easy plug-in for TS armies.
I face them rather regularly as there is one dedicated tzeench daemon player, as well as two players with the option to add them to their armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: So if LoC is just our spells not going off reliably, then it is not as bad a sniper spam for us IMHO
If an exalted LoC successfully denies a spell, it cannot be cast again for the rest of the game.
If he denies a single smite, none of your weird boys can smite anymore, same for da jump.
addnid wrote: So if LoC is just our spells not going off reliably, then it is not as bad a sniper spam for us IMHO
If an exalted LoC successfully denies a spell, it cannot be cast again for the rest of the game.
If he denies a single smite, none of your weird boys can smite anymore, same for da jump.
"Spell Thief: When this model successfully denies a psychic power, the PSYKER unit that attempted to manifest that power loses it and cannot attempt to manifest it again this battle."
Seems more per individual unit given "the PSYKER unit" instead of "that power".
Emicrania wrote: Still the chaos PA looks bad ATM. I really feel for all those that have a Bloodthirster and could not field it all 8th.
That T16 Great Unclean one though, what more can you want?
Is that a real thing? It'd be one of the few cases where the S20 on a stompa does something.
T16? Still wounding on 3's bitch!
You can technically chain exalted as much as you want. It's probably gonna be FAQed shortly, as it's obviously wrong, probably much like the engine war nonsense where you can stack like 6 auras from the new book
But yeah, the GUO can get up to like t16 plus do like 10 d3 mortals a turn or something stupid. Considering that's a Warlord Titan, I imagine that's unintended for 40k play.
Ah, so it's like the pre-errata warphead, where you could put the same strat on a weirdboy over and over? I'm still upset GW took that away from us, it was a terrible move and super orky at the same time.
Let me gamble that this 4 wound model who perils super easily is going to be worth spending like 5CPs on so he can throw out every spell in the entire discipline every turn
The LOC issue is a trap and Orks are the army least worried about it.
It’s still stupid expensive just for a chance to prevent a psychic power.
And honestly I’m using da jump turn 1 and turn 2 tops most games. Unless it’s a late objective grab instead of smite..
Turn 1 the LOC is likely not in range. Turn 2 I’m still tarpitting. Which means if it’s going to attempt to deny my power it along with my boys tarpit is giving me enough boys in range of my weirdboy to give me +2/3 to my psychic test. Compared to other armies orks should be fine. The LOC is still a lot of points that really doesn’t hurt orks that much. It always had the same chance to deny and it never bothered us then either.
generally if i even get a third DaJump im usually DaJumping the weirdboy himself to try for a cheeky smite-character-snipe, as hes kinda ran out of his usefulness at that point.
It almost never pays off but i do it anyway because of that one time it did work and i won because of it lol
tulun wrote: You can technically chain exalted as much as you want. It's probably gonna be FAQed shortly, as it's obviously wrong, probably much like the engine war nonsense where you can stack like 6 auras from the new book
But yeah, the GUO can get up to like t16 plus do like 10 d3 mortals a turn or something stupid. Considering that's a Warlord Titan, I imagine that's unintended for 40k play.
You can do that only in open play though, matched play prevents the exalted daemons from getting an ability twice. The worst your opponent can do is bring an exalted daemon with all six abilities for 6CP.
I'm wondering, what's our most efficient non-relic non-vehicle melee weapon? The big choppa with it's CC Autocannon stat, the powerklaw with it's swingy damage and poor accuracy, the Powerstabba with it's meh strength but cheap and cheerful nature, finally the Killsaw with a pretty decent statline for killing anything without an invul and an even number of wounds.
Depends on who’s swinging it..
If you are wondering about nob squad who gets access to all those options... people did the numbers way back in this thread.. the power stabba was actually better then I thought it would be.
Don't warbosses also have access to most of them? Outside the Powerstabba if I recall. But yeah, nobs can have a wonderful variety of weapons slapped onto them. Interesting that the powerstabba faired well. Though at 3 points it's quite cheap (Or maybe the rest are far too expensive)
Jidmah wrote: Eh, still means it turns a warp head into a nob with big choppa each turn.
Not that level. Even at +2 to dispel bonuses equal out or orks get 1 more . He needs Roll over so odds are against him(especially as your lowest rolls don't matter as you fail to cast aka no deny)
Emicrania wrote: Still the chaos PA looks bad ATM. I really feel for all those that have a Bloodthirster and could not field it all 8th.
That T16 Great Unclean one though, what more can you want?
Is that a real thing? It'd be one of the few cases where the S20 on a stompa does something.
T16? Still wounding on 3's bitch!
You can technically chain exalted as much as you want. It's probably gonna be FAQed shortly, as it's obviously wrong, probably much like the engine war nonsense where you can stack like 6 auras from the new book
But yeah, the GUO can get up to like t16 plus do like 10 d3 mortals a turn or something stupid. Considering that's a Warlord Titan, I imagine that's unintended for 40k play.
Good luck rolling all those duplicates. Even with 2d6 odds of getting it is 30%.
tulun wrote: You can technically chain exalted as much as you want. It's probably gonna be FAQed shortly, as it's obviously wrong, probably much like the engine war nonsense where you can stack like 6 auras from the new book
But yeah, the GUO can get up to like t16 plus do like 10 d3 mortals a turn or something stupid. Considering that's a Warlord Titan, I imagine that's unintended for 40k play.
You can do that only in open play though, matched play prevents the exalted daemons from getting an ability twice. The worst your opponent can do is bring an exalted daemon with all six abilities for 6CP.
Or roll randomly. Then he can get duplicates. But likely blows all cp to get that t16
cody.d. wrote: I'm wondering, what's our most efficient non-relic non-vehicle melee weapon? The big choppa with it's CC Autocannon stat, the powerklaw with it's swingy damage and poor accuracy, the Powerstabba with it's meh strength but cheap and cheerful nature, finally the Killsaw with a pretty decent statline for killing anything without an invul and an even number of wounds.
The killsaw is probably the best weapon, but you always need to factor in the chance of those 15 points actually reaching combat. After that, I'd say dual choppas are the next best option.
cody.d. wrote: I'm wondering, what's our most efficient non-relic non-vehicle melee weapon? The big choppa with it's CC Autocannon stat, the powerklaw with it's swingy damage and poor accuracy, the Powerstabba with it's meh strength but cheap and cheerful nature, finally the Killsaw with a pretty decent statline for killing anything without an invul and an even number of wounds.
Overall, it's definitely double Killsaw. But that's not really fair, as that's 23 points.
Based on what boys stuggle against it's gotta be the Kill saw. The power klaw is the worst general options per point, imo, as the Kill saw is just straight up better for 2 points. Consistent damage AND straight up ignores power armour? Yes please.
Probably per point, the Big Choppa is the all purpose winner. No neg hit modifier, AP-1, +2 str, and 2 damage. The power stabba is okay but I think the 1 damage profile kills it. At least it's cheap as hell, but you might as well just take a Big Choppa. They aren't that expensive, and nobs with Big Choppas looks boss.
And as was stated, double choppa if you don't really care if they kill much. It's free.
addnid wrote: Power klaw is the best for Deathskulls is it not ?
Nope.
Always take consistency. PKs do better under death skulls, but you wanna reduce variance. I’m still gonna get 1s to my damage roll with the PK.
Against a 1-wound model, it's irrelevant.
Against a 2-wound model, you have a 1/9 chance of doing worse with a Deathskulls PK than a Killsaw. (Assuming AP-3 is enough to force them to their invuln or nothing.)
Against a 3-wound model, you have a 5/9 chance of one-shotting the model.
Now, if you can take dual Saws, that extra attack should more than make up for that, or if you're in a Primaris heavy environment without any 3-wound models, then Saws are generally better. But one singular Klaw has a use.
]Against a 1-wound model, it's irrelevant.
Against a 2-wound model, you have a 1/9 chance of doing worse with a Deathskulls PK than a Killsaw. (Assuming AP-3 is enough to force them to their invuln or nothing.)
Against a 3-wound model, you have a 5/9 chance of one-shotting the model.
Now, if you can take dual Saws, that extra attack should more than make up for that, or if you're in a Primaris heavy environment without any 3-wound models, then Saws are generally better. But one singular Klaw has a use.
Considering the things boys struggle against the most IS Primaris, and how they will probably continue to dominate the meta, that basically answers the question. You should absolutely build to kill them.
Keep in mind, you only re-roll 1 damage roll. and power armour gets to a 6+ save -- Sure, it's not great, but paying 2 more points to deny them a save is a no brainer to me, and to prevent if I get a bit lucky on hit rolls, an intercessor without an invul save just outright dies.
I don't really expect my boys to bash down 3 wound models, they really aren't designed to do that. Having that random 3 damage klaw isn't going make a difference without a lot of blind luck.
addnid wrote: 12 CP for 2000 point games, not great news for us is it ?
We are still missing parts of the picture: How will armies be able to gain CP mid-game, and whether or not existing stratagems will have their cost adjusted at launch.
There's also the factor of smaller army sizes meaning less targets for strats, lowering the average CP consumption per turn.
As far as point values go, my bet for Boyz is they'll hit 9 point per.
addnid wrote: 12 CP for 2000 point games, not great news for us is it ?
That's your starting CP. They've said elsewhere that you get CP every round as well, so if it's like 2CP extra per battleround then I got no complaints
gungo wrote: Points went up across the board. I’m wondering if boyz and Gretchin went up again. They implied it’s more like pre 8th edition.
Any substantial point increase would definitely kill hoard army’s
Not if EVERYTHING goes up by the same amount.
Though looking at the points previewed, not sure they did. Cultists went up 50%.
Intercessors went up less than 20%.
Sadly I think thier intention is to reduce hordes and reduce game time by making us use elite forces and large models more then troops.
Good news for mega nobs and maybe warbikers bad news for boyz and Gretchin... unfortunately our most competitive list was horde spam even regardless if I don’t like playing it personally.
gungo wrote: Points went up across the board. I’m wondering if boyz and Gretchin went up again. They implied it’s more like pre 8th edition.
Any substantial point increase would definitely kill hoard army’s
Not if EVERYTHING goes up by the same amount.
Though looking at the points previewed, not sure they did. Cultists went up 50%.
Intercessors went up less than 20%.
Sadly I think thier intention is to reduce hordes and reduce game time by making us use elite forces and large models more then troops.
Good news for mega nobs and maybe warbikers bad news for boyz and Gretchin... unfortunately our most competitive list was horde spam even regardless if I don’t like playing it personally.
Mega Nobs are the best, so, if they become meta, I'm a happy camper.
Honestly, playing 170 models in a 2000 point game is miserable in 8th edition, even if it's strong. If we can shift a bit away from that, all the better.
I remember playing Orks in 3rd/4th edition with LESS models and it felt like a proper, disorganized horde. I play with more models in 8th and it just feels... off.
It really is, one of the reasons i never ran more than 2x30 boyz and typically didnt even move my grots more than once (maybe twice depending on where the objective was) was because i got tired of having that many models.
Yeah, this also helps address GW's fundamental issues of not being effectively able to address horde units, because look at what happened to cultists and conscripts. Points wasn't enough to deal with them since the points design space was so limited, so they had to lump on restrictive rules (max unit size, stuff like Raw Recruits and Cultists not benefiting from Legion traits) to compensate. Ideally, with the points reset, it means Ork hordes are a little more purposeful even if we're more limited in number, as I think we all prefer having maybe 60 boyz with a decent number reaching the enemy, rather than 120 with only half getting there.
it also semi addresses the issue that a lot of things cost as much or less points than they do USD. For orks and admech (ironically both my armies) its especially bad. Hopefully that issue gets rectified, i have no issues with things being pretty pricy (the new admech flier being 100USD is fine given its detail and scale) but when im expected to buy multiples of it because its so dang cheap in game...wtfgwlol. That flier costs 130-160pts btw depending on the variant you use. Something that costs a little more than a Stormraven is half its points....cause that makes sense And they wonder why so many people are going the 3D printing route.
Any idea how many local guys keep bugging me to print them rhinos, sicarans, dreads, wagons, or ork fliers? They dont want to spend several hundred for such a tiny fraction of their army. People arent afraid of the cost for a knight because its at least a large chunk of the army, but they get pissy when its a mek gun lol
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, this also helps address GW's fundamental issues of not being effectively able to address horde units, because look at what happened to cultists and conscripts. Points wasn't enough to deal with them since the points design space was so limited, so they had to lump on restrictive rules (max unit size, stuff like Raw Recruits and Cultists not benefiting from Legion traits) to compensate. Ideally, with the points reset, it means Ork hordes are a little more purposeful even if we're more limited in number, as I think we all prefer having maybe 60 boyz with a decent number reaching the enemy, rather than 120 with only half getting there.
Yeah, exactly.
Just thinking of how my Ork boys played in 3rd...
I'd field 2-3 max size squads (which I think was 20 boys), with half of each squad near a KFF (because it was 50%> for the KFF cover save), at the edge of my deployment zone, and just run em forward because they could only move 6" and charge 6". As they were shot, they'd eventually fall back and mob up into the remaining squads, turning my other squads into a mesh of Big Shootas, Rockets, Nobs, and remaining boys. They might not make it, but it felt like a snowball rolling down a mountain gaining in size until it bashed into the enemy.
That felt way. more like an Ork horde then me fielding 90+ boys today, with me mostly hiding them because I'm worried about flying units that can charge 44" away, so I have to screen a bunch of grots in a weird conga line in front, or just hiding them because I have to worry about a single unit of aggressors shooting them 114 times with re-rolls in 1 shooting phase.
so, I threw together a list for ork trukks, the goal being to have everything in a trukk. It's built around what I have available, and features 3 units of slugga boys, because they have been painted up as 3 themed squads and exist for the sole purpose of competing with each other to be the best of the 3.
I'm not expecting to wipe the floor with anyone, but my thoughts are:
1: rush the flashgits to a good, central position with cover, and park the trukk until it dies, then loot it, then park the flashgits until they die.
2: keep the 3 slugga mobs (with warbosses) together and mob things. Don't expect them to pull much weight, so overkill everything!
3: park the lootas in trukks from turn 1, preferably next to or in cover, with SAG's firing out of them as well.
4: try to dart from cover to cover with the shoota trukks, do drive-bys and try to stay alive
5: ram the 10-grot-wagon down the enemies throat, they can either ignore it or waste time on it. Use it to charge things - maybe drop the ammo runt for a CC weapon on the grots trukk...
shootas and sluggas should deal with chaff. SAG's should deal with vehicles. Lootas should deal with medium stuff. trukks will be for mobility, not for charging, so kep them out of combat (except the 3 slugga ones).
I have no idea how it will work out, and I have 4 trukks to repair from poor storage decisions before I can run the list. I think that 100 T6 4+ wounds, with a 1/6 chance of reducing damage to 1, will fair moderately well against the turn 1 fusilade, won't it? maybe??
Don't buy any boyz or grots at this point, Reecius just let it slip on the podcast that there are strong incentives against big units in 9th, and then even followed that up with specifically singling out the ork horde list as the archetype he thinks is most hosed by the new rules.
Well, he's seen the rules, and we haven't. So if you wanna bank that he's wrong go for it...but I sure wouldn't order a bunch of new boyz or grots right now until I see the rules myself, unless I literally had none of them.
If boyz/grotz become utter trash its more going to piss off veterans than newer players. Anybody that has an ork force most likely already has like 200+ boyz and especially because of how 8th works probably at least 60-80 grots too. I dont even know where most of my boyz came from. I just keep finding...more and more of them...and more... lol I was going through sprues looking for trukk bits and found 3 boy sprues completely untouched. I was like "Dafuq did these come from?" lol
Well sure. But veterans already have the models, so there's nothing they can do about it.
My post was intended to be a heads-up for anyone thinking about making new purchases, that the only person who's seen to rules to have opined on it says big units are now bad. He might turn out to be totally wrong, but I would be even more hesitant of buying big units of stuff before we know the new rule than I would be about buying stuff generally.
Personally, I am buying absolutely nothing at all until I see the new rules myself, but even if I was inclined to buy something...it sure wouldn't be big troops units, based on those comments and what little we know about the rules ourselves.
I suspect in general GW will see a significant sales drop in between edition announcement and edition release. One of the things that make me think we'll be seeing it's release date in the near future and in all likelihood a sales boost that will help GW cope with the sales dip from Corona.
I would be surprised if you don't also get at least a CP a turn in the command phase, going down to 12CP for a whole game of 2000 points would be a pretty brutal nerf otherwise to many armies, especially considering that you now have to pay CP for allies. And that they said they thought CP were cool and wanted to expand the ability to use them, not decrease it.
That also results in 18CP, effectively the maximum amount you could feasibly have in 8th, which seems neat and tidy.
yukishiro1 wrote: I would be surprised if you don't also get at least a CP a turn in the command phase, going down to 12CP for a whole game of 2000 points would be a pretty brutal nerf otherwise to many armies, especially considering that you now have to pay CP for allies. And that they said they thought CP were cool and wanted to expand the ability to use them, not decrease it.
That also results in 18CP, effectively the maximum amount you could feasibly have in 8th, which seems neat and tidy.
Although for Orks 12 CP is a bit low, if 2000 is now "1500" (due to points increases), it's a bit of a wash to be honest, and it's not crazily different. I struggled to fit in a good list of triple batallion at 1500, so I was maybe getting 13/14.
If it's 12 CP + 1 CP a turn, mech lists should rejoice. A good mech list was maybe fielding 14, and you probably wanted to do bat / 1 cp / 1 cp detachment realistically anyway to actually fit in the stuff you wanted to.
Now we're just left with finding out what our units cost. I'm really hoping stuff like Mega Nobs didn't change much at all (explain to me how a Mega Nob is 2 points less than an aggressor? ), and maybe even our vehicles don't really change at all, as they are all probably 20% overcosted in THIS edition where vehicles are kind of crap.
This is Reece again so some people will dismiss it, but he also just stated that there is more to the total CP you'll get than just the amount listed on that table:
"There is more to the CP equation than what you’re seeing but generally the average is higher but the max is lower."
Gonna be honest though, I'm kinda keen for midsized armies to be the meta. The ork Horde is iconic and all but not exactly the best for expressing tactical knowhow and everything. And if games take less time then that's a bit of a win win as well. Wondering if they'll be teasing more stuff soon, or giving us a release date.
Actually horde armies tend to be the most difficult and technical armies of all to play. They do take a long time, but that's mostly because it's so important you get the movement right, and movement is by far the most technical aspect of 40k.
Vineheart01 wrote: If boyz/grotz become utter trash its more going to piss off veterans than newer players.
Anybody that has an ork force most likely already has like 200+ boyz and especially because of how 8th works probably at least 60-80 grots too.
I dont even know where most of my boyz came from. I just keep finding...more and more of them...and more... lol I was going through sprues looking for trukk bits and found 3 boy sprues completely untouched. I was like "Dafuq did these come from?" lol
Well gw isn't worried about that. What they want is you buy something else though. Gw isn't looking for balance where everything is good but constantly changing what is good.
Models you already have don't generate profits. If you have 200+ hard to sell even more boyz
Weirdly, it feels like we might be seeing the dawn of the Age of the Runtherd.
You need a unit to do assorted actions on control points. Some of these will be only done by infantry, some by characters, but a Runtherd's both.
You need a small unit that can hide from LOS easily, which a single Herder can do, and he's further protected from no LOS units by his character status, preventing him from being shot when someone's nearer.
It's a small tradeoff of offensive power lost, unlike using, say, a unit of Lootas or Meganobs, since a cingle slugga and a stick aren't a major cost.
Oh, and since we're fairly sure that getting more detachments will eat up your command points, it should be remembered that a Runtherd can be taken *without* using a slot, 1 per Grots unit you have.
Is the Runtherd a good unit? Oh Mork no, but he might be a *useful* one as 9th rolls in.
Might be time to root through yoru storage and dust a couple of 'em off...
Wakshaani wrote: Weirdly, it feels like we might be seeing the dawn of the Age of the Runtherd.
You need a unit to do assorted actions on control points. Some of these will be only done by infantry, some by characters, but a Runtherd's both.
You need a small unit that can hide from LOS easily, which a single Herder can do, and he's further protected from no LOS units by his character status, preventing him from being shot when someone's nearer.
It's a small tradeoff of offensive power lost, unlike using, say, a unit of Lootas or Meganobs, since a cingle slugga and a stick aren't a major cost.
Oh, and since we're fairly sure that getting more detachments will eat up your command points, it should be remembered that a Runtherd can be taken *without* using a slot, 1 per Grots unit you have.
Is the Runtherd a good unit? Oh Mork no, but he might be a *useful* one as 9th rolls in.
Might be time to root through yoru storage and dust a couple of 'em off...
You might be right, but why wouldn't you just use the cheaper mek instead?
I'm hoping that "horde" units get some kind of bonus or discount for being taken at max size like some units do in AoS. Would give an incentive to actually use them after they've basically said that they will be massively hamstrung otherwise.
That or I'll just get more nobs. It's a good thing I love the nob/flash git kits.
Wakshaani wrote: Weirdly, it feels like we might be seeing the dawn of the Age of the Runtherd.
You need a unit to do assorted actions on control points. Some of these will be only done by infantry, some by characters, but a Runtherd's both.
...
Is the Runtherd a good unit? Oh Mork no, but he might be a *useful* one as 9th rolls in.
Might be time to root through yoru storage and dust a couple of 'em off...
You might be right, but why wouldn't you just use the cheaper mek instead?
Mek takes a slot, though currently batallion allow for up to 6 elites, so I dunno. If you want to stick ton just a batallion for 2000pts (equivalent to atm 1600pts), runtherds do indeed seem legit for objectives and such. But I don't think orks can stick to one batallion unless PPMs on average skyrocket (which... Is unlikely but not impossible)
Yeah starts to look like it. Less than 2 months for 9th and wouldn't be surprising for SotB to get 9th ed FAQ as well(despite their claims of 9th ed compatibility).
Ah well. Well guess we know why no spring FAQ as well. With 9th ed so close guess they didn't want to bother.
I think we will stop seeing the massive troop spam in the lists, but I still think factions like astra militarum and orks will run max sized units. We just won't have that many troop units in there. I wouldn't be too worried with words from Reece.
> keep it in mind that factions like Space Marines literally spammed their new core troop unit (intercessor). I personally believe this is the sort of lists they want to see less. It doesn't fit the narrative anyway (elite armies arent running 80 models).
I would also point out that anti-tank shooting needs to be highlighted in 9th edition lists (assuming tanks are coming back, and you aint locking them into melee), so that's something to think about when buying new models. I'm personally reworking my ork collection, so I am in the hazy stage where I only got core amount of units ready. Bit afraid to make purchases...
Ilgoth wrote: I think we will stop seeing the massive troop spam in the lists, but I still think factions like astra militarum and orks will run max sized units. We just won't have that many troop units in there. I wouldn't be too worried with words from Reece.
> keep it in mind that factions like Space Marines literally spammed their new core troop unit (intercessor). I personally believe this is the sort of lists they want to see less. It doesn't fit the narrative anyway (elite armies arent running 80 models).
I would also point out that anti-tank shooting needs to be highlighted in 9th edition lists (assuming tanks are coming back, and you aint locking them into melee), so that's something to think about when buying new models. I'm personally reworking my ork collection, so I am in the hazy stage where I only got core amount of units ready. Bit afraid to make purchases...
Spammikg intercessorst won't be going away. Horde blast rule doesn't matter nor does any other change so far.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ilgoth wrote: I might have been living under a rock but... why anyone has thought it was illegal? I thought it to be the go-to loadout in 8th?
Some people still stuck in old ways. It's clear from getgo and didn't faq clear it further?
Spammikg intercessorst won't be going away. Horde blast rule doesn't matter nor does any other change so far.
By all accounts it seems better than before -- Horde unit got a 50% point increase, Intercessor got a 15% increase (we don't know guns of course).
We need full context but from what we know now it's gonna be used. The fact that squads can split at 10 might even see play for those special actions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Command Phase gives you CP as expected, but it depends on the mission. So sometimes it won't.
Detachments always have a cost, but you get a refund if the warlord is in that detachment.
Sounds like in the future, plan for maybe mixing 2 clans at most. Thankfully, Orks can easily make do with 2 clans to cover most of our units.
I am really wondering if grots are going to become even more important in future editions for us. If they only go up 1 PPM to 4 points, they are going to be cheap as chips still. Plus they can perform special actions OR grot shields for a tougher unit to finish off a special action. Losing the shooting of that 5-10 MANz unit is largely irrelevant, and if they aren't in range to assault, who cares if they stand still for a turn.
They really seem to be emphasizing elite armies are going to be king. Stu Black mentioned the Ork army he was playing was a Dread spam (KK, Deff Dreads).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow. Never mind lol.
A battalion costs 3 CP... if vanguards and the like are similar that’s brutal.
Sort of? You arent mandated to take CP generating detachments anymore, unless they spring something new up you can more easily run pure heavy/elite/FA than before since you dont NEED brig/bats for cp generation.
Vineheart01 wrote: Sort of? You arent mandated to take CP generating detachments anymore, unless they spring something new up you can more easily run pure heavy/elite/FA than before since you dont NEED brig/bats for cp generation.
If that is to my last answer (That's brutal), taking a more clans is still probably optimal *if* feasible.
We'll have to see if Outrider / Vanguard costs 3 CP, if so, I don't know if going down to 9 CP in a 2000 point game just to take that second clan is worth it. Maybe 2 CP to get that second clan will be worth it.
They did talk about you having more command points if the army was from the same faction though (to discourage soup, as we already know). But in today's stream they reiterated that statement although also talked about sub-factions the same way (meaning they'd cost extra points as well).
Maybe they misspoke but I'd wager that whatever detachment you take other than what matches your warlods' specific subfaction will cost extra CP. That'll become an issue pretty quick for Orks.
PiñaColada wrote: They did talk about you having more command points if the army was from the same faction though (to discourage soup, as we already know). But in today's stream they reiterated that statement although also talked about sub-factions the same way (meaning they'd cost extra points as well).
Maybe they misspoke but I'd wager that whatever detachment you take other than what matches your warlods' specific subfaction will cost extra CP. That'll become an issue pretty quick for Orks.
Patrol/bat/brigade refunds if warlord there. All dets cost so if warlord is in say vanquard you pay for all det's. Bat is 3cp. Wonder how much vanquard etc cost. In 8th gave least. In 9th do they thus take most? Second bat will cost 3cp. So multi klan will cost cp. Thats now sure
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dendarien wrote: This is exactly what I was worried about. The only klans that are reasonably competitive pure would be DS and FB.
A huge benefit to marines, who already get bonuses for staying mono.
Multi klan etc should cost cp. Mono should for sake of balance have something to compensate.
Issue is marines who get 3 bonuses staying mono. More cp, doctrines, super doctrines. In 8th ed codes should have mono bonus(though not marine level. Sister is much better. Maybe bit too light). In 9th ed they shouldn't. Marine codex 1 was 9th ed suitable. Mk2 was 8th
Sadly, the more we're seeing of 9th, the less convincing it is looking. Either this piecemeal reveal approach isn't working well and is creating a negative impression the overall rules won't, or the rules really are a bit of a mess. Either way, they ought to reconsider how they're revealing this stuff. It isn't inspiring confidence and getting people hyped.
PiñaColada wrote: They did talk about you having more command points if the army was from the same faction though (to discourage soup, as we already know). But in today's stream they reiterated that statement although also talked about sub-factions the same way (meaning they'd cost extra points as well).
Maybe they misspoke but I'd wager that whatever detachment you take other than what matches your warlods' specific subfaction will cost extra CP. That'll become an issue pretty quick for Orks.
Patrol/bat/brigade refunds if warlord there. All dets cost so if warlord is in say vanquard you pay for all det's. Bat is 3cp. Wonder how much vanquard etc cost. In 8th gave least. In 9th do they thus take most? Second bat will cost 3cp. So multi klan will cost cp. Thats now sure
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dendarien wrote: This is exactly what I was worried about. The only klans that are reasonably competitive pure would be DS and FB.
A huge benefit to marines, who already get bonuses for staying mono.
Multi klan etc should cost cp. Mono should for sake of balance have something to compensate.
Issue is marines who get 3 bonuses staying mono. More cp, doctrines, super doctrines. In 8th ed codes should have mono bonus(though not marine level. Sister is much better. Maybe bit too light). In 9th ed they shouldn't. Marine codex 1 was 9th ed suitable. Mk2 was 8th
I think for some factions a mixture is actually appropriate for background sake (Orks and Dark Eldar). The biggest balance issues have been pulling multiple codices together, not multiple subfactions. As much as this hurts orks though, man RIP DE who were already in a kind of rough spot.
I totally agree that ideally for balance sake, mono faction is the way to go. I just hope there is some compensating factors for this that are not just point cost adjustments down the line.
RIP non-CWE generally. Quins are a joke to play mono, the codex is totally, woefully incomplete. It's got literally half as many units of the next smallest codex. It was never intended to be a completely independent faction.
It's also very hard to square this nonsense with the claim that the PA books were designed with 9th in mind. If so, why so much focus in the ork book on specialist detachments? This is a mechanic that just became total junk.
Fluff wise appropriate yes but mono goffs etc are also thing in fluff and crucially mono goff is worse than mix of klans(not to mention benefit you get from more slots). Balance requires thus mono klan get boost.
If this makes orks be too weak correct solution is to give enough buffs to orks, not make multi klan/order/regiment be free power ups with no downside.
How much CP would you spend to take a second detachment?
Honestly, I don't think double clan is dead. If it costs 1 CP, it's fine. 2 CP I think is okay. 3+... that's a no.
I could easily see taking a Deathskull or Evil Suns bat (depending what you want as troops), then an outrider of the other.. taking stuff like Deff Koptas, Buggies. That'll be very powerful and it's not super CP intensive for the first couple of turns, so waiting a few turns for CP regen won't be a big deal.
tneva82 wrote: Fluff wise appropriate yes but mono goffs etc are also thing in fluff and crucially mono goff is worse than mix of klans(not to mention benefit you get from more slots). Balance requires thus mono klan get boost.
If this makes orks be too weak correct solution is to give enough buffs to orks, not make multi klan/order/regiment be free power ups with no downside.
I agree 100%. I've always loved Goffs and would like that to be a competitive alternative to DS or FB. Unfortunately I doubt any adjustment to kultures will come without a new codex, which is likely a long ways off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: How much CP would you spend to take a second detachment?
Honestly, I don't think double clan is dead. If it costs 1 CP, it's fine. 2 CP I think is okay. 3+... that's a no.
I could easily see taking a Deathskull or Evil Suns bat (depending what you want as troops), then an outrider of the other.. taking stuff like Deff Koptas, Buggies. That'll be very powerful and it's not super CP intensive for the first couple of turns, so waiting a few turns for CP regen won't be a big deal.
Warhammer Community confirmed its 3 CP for a battalion.
The really interesting thing will be how much patrols cost. If patrols are 1CP, a lot of the issues go away, and they will become the preferred supplementary detachment. Paying only 1CP to soup isn't a big deal. Paying 3 is prohibitive.
It wouldn't make much sense to have a patrol be only 1CP but a bat be 3CP...but god knows making sense isn't really GW's strong suit. It didn't make any sense in 8th either that a patrol gave you nothing but a bat gave you 5, but that's still how it worked.
It's 3CP for a battalion that exactly matches your warlords' faction. Perhaps vanguard/spearhead/outriders cost less CP each (but I somewhat doubt that), you're still going to get hit by the "soup tax". I can't see an extra soup detachment costing less than 3CP personally so it's doubtful if that's worth it for Orks, who are so incredibly CP hungry already.
I play mono, no skin off my back. But I wager DS are going to become the norm
"So, if you don’t earn Command points by taking additional Detachments, do they still interact with each other in any way? The answer is yes, but how they do so has been turned on its head. Instead of earning you Command points, each Detachment you take will instead COST you Command points. However, it’s worth noting that the Command points spent on a ‘core’ Detachment (Patrol, Battalion or Brigade) are refunded if it also includes your Warlord, so your first Detachment is usually free. "
Brigade is gonna be the way to be.
Also I misread that new strat at first and went insane, thankfully i was corrected.
PiñaColada wrote: It's 3CP for a battalion that exactly matches your warlords' faction. Perhaps vanguard/spearhead/outriders cost less CP each (but I somewhat doubt that), you're still going to get hit by the "soup tax". I can't see an extra soup detachment costing less than 3CP personally so it's doubtful if that's worth it for Orks, who are so incredibly CP hungry already.
I play mono, no skin off my back. But I wager DS are going to become the norm
The battalion image on the WHC article shows that it costs 3 for the batt, but you get 3 back if it includes your warlord so it is free for the first.
Will definitely be interesting to see how they handle other detachments, or if they even add/change/remove some of them. My guess is those that gave less CP in the past will now cost more, as there is less HQ and troop tax and generally deadlier units.
PiñaColada wrote: It's 3CP for a battalion that exactly matches your warlords' faction. Perhaps vanguard/spearhead/outriders cost less CP each (but I somewhat doubt that), you're still going to get hit by the "soup tax". I can't see an extra soup detachment costing less than 3CP personally so it's doubtful if that's worth it for Orks, who are so incredibly CP hungry already.
I play mono, no skin off my back. But I wager DS are going to become the norm
The battalion image on the WHC article shows that it costs 3 for the batt, but you get 3 back if it includes your warlord so it is free for the first.
Will definitely be interesting to see how they handle other detachments, or if they even add/change/remove some of them. My guess is those that gave less CP in the past will now cost more, as there is less HQ and troop tax and generally deadlier units.
I know that, but your soup detachment still has to actually be a detachment. Hence you're paying an extra 3CP for your second battalion, plus an additional 1 or 2 because your second detachment is of a different subfaction than your first
The strat seems poorly designed, especially if they are trying to move away from hordes. It gives grots the same ability to cut down a retreating super heavy tank that a warlord titan has.
But it's also so underwhelming you're unlikely to see it used much. You basically need 12 or more models within 1" of the enemy unit to make using it worth the CP based on the way most strats are valued - and if you've got 12+ models within an inch and haven't wrapped the unit, you probably messed something up anyway. So the use is even more marginal.
The ability to make an attack (maybe even full attacks) per model against a falling back unit should have just been standard in 9th edition. Making people pay CP for it, and turning it into mortal wounds, is a bit silly.
Emicrania wrote: "So, if you don’t earn Command points by taking additional Detachments, do they still interact with each other in any way? The answer is yes, but how they do so has been turned on its head. Instead of earning you Command points, each Detachment you take will instead COST you Command points. However, it’s worth noting that the Command points spent on a ‘core’ Detachment (Patrol, Battalion or Brigade) are refunded if it also includes your Warlord, so your first Detachment is usually free. "
Brigade is gonna be the way to be.
Also I misread that new strat at first and went insane, thankfully i was corrected.
Depends. Taking 6 troops might not be wise, even if it gives you 5 HQ slots and the myriad of other stuff.
If patrols really only cost 1 CP, I actually bet Orks will do Bat / patrol. At current FoC, patrols are awesome for a small second detachment, and you save yourself 2 troop slots.
The patrol is interesting because it's by far the most flexible detachment, it's just that nobody used it because it didn't give you any CP. In a world where things cost CP instead of granting them, you may see a lot more use out of it.
The one drawback - the only one - is that you can only take 2 of most things, which means you can't max out the rule of 3. But you may see less of that anyway I think, because if the new standard is effectively 1500 points instead, maxing out the rule of 3 will become a lot more expensive relatively speaking, anyway.
PiñaColada wrote: It's 3CP for a battalion that exactly matches your warlords' faction. Perhaps vanguard/spearhead/outriders cost less CP each (but I somewhat doubt that), you're still going to get hit by the "soup tax". I can't see an extra soup detachment costing less than 3CP personally so it's doubtful if that's worth it for Orks, who are so incredibly CP hungry already.
I play mono, no skin off my back. But I wager DS are going to become the norm
Brigade i suspect costs less. More tax. Patrol on that logic most expensive.
Wonder what forts are. If they too cost cp will be even less popular. Already weak
PiñaColada wrote: It's 3CP for a battalion that exactly matches your warlords' faction. Perhaps vanguard/spearhead/outriders cost less CP each (but I somewhat doubt that), you're still going to get hit by the "soup tax". I can't see an extra soup detachment costing less than 3CP personally so it's doubtful if that's worth it for Orks, who are so incredibly CP hungry already.
I play mono, no skin off my back. But I wager DS are going to become the norm
The battalion image on the WHC article shows that it costs 3 for the batt, but you get 3 back if it includes your warlord so it is free for the first.
Will definitely be interesting to see how they handle other detachments, or if they even add/change/remove some of them. My guess is those that gave less CP in the past will now cost more, as there is less HQ and troop tax and generally deadlier units.
I know that, but your soup detachment still has to actually be a detachment. Hence you're paying an extra 3CP for your second battalion, plus an additional 1 or 2 because your second detachment is of a different subfaction than your first
Pretty sure different subfaction doesn't cost cp. Article didn'" even mention different codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw minor fix but transports 1 per infantry now. Always felt weird you can bring razorback for every tank
They talked about sub-factions (in passing) on the stream. To me it seemed that they insinuated that not only other codices but also other subfactions would be classified as soup and infer an extra cost.
We'll see how much each detachment will cost in the end, brigades might be cheaper due to the amount of troop slots but I certainly wouldn't wager on patrol and vanguard/spearhead/outrider being cheap as they have a minimal amount of slot tax units.
The rule says additional detachments even of the same sub-faction cost CP.
If there is some additional CP penalty on top of the 3CP for another bat that you have to pay if it isn't of the same sub-faction or faction...hoooooo boy.
Charging more for patrols/vanguards/etc makes no sense in the context of them saying they wanted to move *away* from having tax units. Of course, it's GW, so just because it makes no sense doesn't mean that isn't how it will be. But I would be surprised.
That's what I'm saying. I'm almost certain they mentioned that in passing on todays stream. So if you have 2 battalions, one DS with your warlord, and another ES. It might look something like:
12CP for being 2000 points battleforged
Pay 3 for your first battalion (is fully refunded though)
Pay 3 for your second battalion detachment
Pay 1 for your second battalion not being the same subfaction as the first battalion
---------------------------
Start the game with 8CP
Cut them down is a missed chance to just allow all models to attack IMO.
As for getting negative vibes from the new rules - orks have always been an army that has worked very closely with the core rules, and many of our competitive strategies rely on exploiting the shortcomings of 8th edition. Fixing them will give those strategies a hit.
This has been the case for every edition change I've been part of, the main difference is that this time we might not be stuck with our problems for multiple years.
Also keep in might that right now we still have the mech build which is semi-competitive and seems to be getting a lot of love from the new rules.
PiñaColada wrote: They talked about sub-factions (in passing) on the stream. To me it seemed that they insinuated that not only other codices but also other subfactions would be classified as soup and infer an extra cost.
We'll see how much each detachment will cost in the end, brigades might be cheaper due to the amount of troop slots but I certainly wouldn't wager on patrol and vanguard/spearhead/outrider being cheap as they have a minimal amount of slot tax units.
Yeah i expect brigade be 1, vanquard etc 3-5.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: The rule says additional detachments even of the same sub-faction cost CP.
If there is some additional CP penalty on top of the 3CP for another bat that you have to pay if it isn't of the same sub-faction or faction...hoooooo boy.
Charging more for patrols/vanguards/etc makes no sense in the context of them saying they wanted to move *away* from having tax units. Of course, it's GW, so just because it makes no sense doesn't mean that isn't how it will be. But I would be surprised.
Better det, more pricey. Less tax, more good units. Same reason why they gave least.
If vanquard is 3(or even less) why take inferior bat as 2nd det...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Relistening. They mentioned you can take additional detachments gainlng flexibility taking ability to take other factions, subfactions or more slots but this comes at a cost. Sounds it is just reference to det cost, not separate cost even to unlock codex. But will listen more. Maybe they get back to this
yukishiro1 wrote: The strat seems poorly designed, especially if they are trying to move away from hordes. It gives grots the same ability to cut down a retreating super heavy tank that a warlord titan has.
But it's also so underwhelming you're unlikely to see it used much. You basically need 12 or more models within 1" of the enemy unit to make using it worth the CP based on the way most strats are valued - and if you've got 12+ models within an inch and haven't wrapped the unit, you probably messed something up anyway. So the use is even more marginal.
The ability to make an attack (maybe even full attacks) per model against a falling back unit should have just been standard in 9th edition. Making people pay CP for it, and turning it into mortal wounds, is a bit silly.
This
The only point of this strat for us is tying up units in large mobs of grots to combat lock them. (Although units can fire in melee now)
Then when that lord of change wants to fall back out of combat you can mortal wound spam him with ~18 grots for an average of 3 wounds.
Regarding the rest of this gak
I’m thinking 12 command points with 1 per turn realistically first 4 are all that matters.. is way to low for command points since they are adding more strategems, adding command points consuming abilities, and taking away command points if I want 2 detachments regardless of soup or not. I’m already at 15 command points on my current triple bat list and it’s not enough... I can drop it down to 1 detachments but It’s still worse off. This isn’t more Cp for me or anyone using Triple bat.
At best I hope tournaments go back to the old 6th ed 2000+1 tourney list.. allowing us to start with 18 command points. I can work with 18cp plus 1 a turn.. as I said before I Hope ghaz gives you more command points if not death skulls or freebooter all day everyday.
I really don't think there will be even more CP costs on top of the detachment costs for soup, that would be a truly brutal penalty, and they have been careful to say all along that soup is still viable.
If a bat cost 1CP I could see another 1CP penalty if it's soup, but the idea it will take 4CP or more to take a soup detachment just seems utterly ridiculous.
Yeah. Having listened stream it didn't sound additional cp over det. Just that having more dets giving more flexibility "to bring other factions, subfactions or for example more hq slots. But it comes with cost". Not 100% quote but fairly close i think it was.
Btw on bit positive news on news&rumour forum thread was rumour about character protection now being if within x" of unit that is closer to enemy. If true reduces amount of units that can cover character making easier to kill protectors to shoot with flanking unit. This is i think first core rule change(if true) that helps hordes. Easier to have backups and cover multiple angles.
It also gives reward for outflanking enemy.
On flipside does make characters more vulnerable so ssag etc are bit easier to kill
Grot shields still helps us though for character protection..
For anything we want to protect they usually have grots around them.
I don’t have a major problem with beIng heavily forced into a single brigade or battalion for my army. We can make due with freebooter or deathskulls as a specialist dress mob. We can make due with nerfed boys and just take grots which are always useful....
But this reduction of CP on an army that uses a ton just to make units viable is going to hurt. I sincerely hope we go to 2000+1 tourney lists again.
Yeah grot screen helps...one character. But there will be more characters being exposed. ASSUMING that rumour is true of course.
But orks can use that as well to hunt down those pesky buffing characters. Removing key covering unit looks to be bit easier than before especially with fast shooters.
Well there's still disclaimer that it's just rumour atm. But any good rumour for orks I take happily atm. At least bit good news is better than no good news.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wonder if the one strat per phase thing will remain, since wasnt that primarily brought in because of CP farmers? and just never axed?
I assume so, partly because some stratagems do way more than others and if spammed across several units, it can be really broken (i.e. Vets of the Long War). So if they do take away that restriction, they'd have to rework the CP cost or rules of several strats.
cody.d. wrote: Imagine taking a naut trio and slapping Kustom Ammo on all three. That's over 900pts of dakka spitting double the firepower out.
Exactly, it's a whole can of worms you're opening if you have unlimited stratagem usage. It would destroy their focus on less alpha striking now that you can front load the stratagem usage in T1 to blow away most of your opponent's army this way.
I don't want a game where somebody fires their lootas/hive guard / whatever 4x in a row on T1. Yeah, they'd probably lose the game anyway...but either way, it isn't fun.
Kustom Jobs isnt what i meant, that one you can do over and over but the kustom job rule itself says you cant have repeats of the same job.
But yeah theres a lot of strats that would be broken as hell if you could use it multiple times. Some strats should be excluded from this though, i.e grot shields.
Grot shields has a lot of internal balances to it which is a good thing. Much better than say, shield drones which are quite powerful due to how flexible the rules for it are. If someone wants to get around grotsheilds they can in a turn, maybe 2 at worst.
I agree. Grot shields is a good mechanic, shield drones are a terrible mechanic. Like EC/MS for eldar, saviour protocols is one of those things that is so powerful it actually paradoxically cripples what the developers can do with the faction, because it makes it impossible to balance the faction around anything except taking full advantage of it.
T'au would be a much more interesting army, both to play and to play against, if they bit the bullet and admitted that savior protocols is a mess to be moved away from instead of something to build the entire army around the abuse of.
Saviour protocol should be on a 5+, so it could have its place in the army as a minor buff, and GW could get on with doing something different with the army.
Tau also take ages to do overwatch, which is painfully slow for the opponent who just wants to get on with his assault phase (in game that already doesn’t favor assault much).
If GW gets rid of current rules for these two things, then people won’t complain nearly as much when playing against Tau.
Grot shield is great, all my opponents know how to get around it, yet it still is a useful resource for us.
Perhaps saviour protocols could be strat with same wording as Grot shields, and overwatch with multiple units also a strat... daydreaming yeah I know. I absolutely hate playing against Tau, even though I win half the time (which is a good thing).
The best tactic vs T´au is playing with a chess clock.
Between wounds allocating, mulltiple saves , correct positioning and overwatch, I´ve yet to find someone that can make it thru 6 rounds.
Also shield drone should work a bit better than grot shild (aka allow FNP) but should NOT translate dmg to 1. and should NOT work in CC. That is just bs.
Unless we start getting new neoprene mats in those sizes theres no way anybody is gonna play that funky size.
Its hard enough to get mats for 3x6ft games
Vineheart01 wrote: Unless we start getting new neoprene mats in those sizes theres no way anybody is gonna play that funky size.
Its hard enough to get mats for 3x6ft games
I think these specific sizes are demarked for Kill Team boards.
IE: 4 Kill team boards = 44" x 60".
But it's totally arbitrary. I bet you won't be playing this at most tournaments, so the defacto standard will still be 6x4.
tulun wrote: Minimum table size is now 60" x 44" (IE: 5' by 3' 8") for a 2000 point game.
This is a buff to CC armies and short ranged shooting armies (like a lot of Ork stuff), but I somehow doubt TOs will move away from 6' X 4' .
I thought so, but I'm not so sure after reading the article I'm not so sure anymore. You might still have the majority of the missions with 24" in the middle , which leave a still a big no man's land to overcome.
Surely there'd be some benefit if the enemy can't place their artillery units quite as far away anymore? If you're taking them out be deepstrike then it doesn't matter but for across the board charges and shooting then there should be some benefit.
Besides, there seem to be rumblings that TO groups are looking to implement these new sizes from what I gather so it might actually come into play
Really all the smaller boards do for combat armies is they limit how far away they can deploy artillery.
In other words, if deploying on short-ends (i always forget the deployment names, the one where you have a super deep deployment) they are going to be roughly 6" closer if you use that minimum board, since the entire board is 1ft shorter that direction. Which isnt that big of a difference, the only things that it would impact are footsloggers and they shouldnt even reach the far end of the board in the first place w/o deepstrike or transport help.
For non-LOS shooting, doesn't make a huge difference necessarily. Hopefully non-LOS shooting jacks up in price with obscuring terrain.
But LOS shooting and obscuring terrain and such, the enemy might start closer. Yeah, 24" no man's land, but they don't have to deploy RIGHT at the edge. If they have less places to deploy back into, definitely easier to charge them in general.
I still doubt we'll shift away from the 6x4 regardless.
People have to remember this is the table most people around the world play 40k on
This is the garage table.
This is the game store table. The same ones used for magic and other card games.
This table is actually bigger then the kitchen table people started 40k on which is shorter (5ft)
This table helps the tournament organizers because they don’t need to bring with them x number of plywood toppers anymore...
This change is a massive convience for the majority of players.
And yet 6x4 is still completely viable.
This table and a large piece of green felt was my game table for about 5 years.
So, given monsters can shoot in melee in 9th, you guys think this'll make much of a differance with Ghaz. I mean he has 12 shots with his weapon but... it's only BS5
Basically anything partially obscured got a 4+ save, and there was area terrain which made your units count as obscured if they were in its base, even if they were in plain sight.
In addition, shooting through models two model of an enemy unit would also grant cover to the target, giving rise to the kan wall archetype. When someone shot your ork boyz behind your kanz at maximum coherency, those boyz had a 4+ cover save.
That was for the likes of forests, ruins, and buildings. There were other classifications of terrain that had a lower cover save value - walls/fences only gave a 5+, as did craters left by destroyed vehicles (common tactic for trukkboy mobs was hiding in the crater of their own trukk after it was destroyed to avoid being easily wiped by the followup shooting).
