True, I forgot about the craters, they were very helpful for orks.

In general it was pretty easy to get that 4+ cover save and many ork tactics revolved around that.

4+ cover save sounds a bit overkill, but I do hope they change something.

+1 armour save means that heavy infantry love cover, and light infantry basically just ignore it, as there is just too much massed AP-1/2 shooting for it to matter.

Whatever system you come up with, you should want your weedy little humans to want to use cover more than your tank armoured super soldiers.

I hope we get some different types of cover rules. Forests could be -1 to be hit by shooting (maybe -1 penalty to shooting for the unit in cover as well) in addition to -2 to charges.

Some type of ruin could just give a 5++ to shooting instead of +1 to the save (basically you luck out and the lascannon hits rubble instead) etc.

Easier cover makes kommandos better...
But honestly kommandos need a lot more help..
They were decent when they had index options.
The 2 Free burna was great...
The big choppa nob was decent.

They plus 1 to wound roll in cover was nice.
But I prefer some type of ability to make charges in cover easier and maybe give them free or cheap burnas... it’s like the only point burnas are useful.

PiñaColada wrote:
I hope we get some different types of cover rules. Forests could be -1 to be hit by shooting (maybe -1 penalty to shooting for the unit in cover as well) in addition to -2 to charges.

Some type of ruin could just give a 5++ to shooting instead of +1 to the save (basically you luck out and the lascannon hits rubble instead) etc.

Sorry, but I really hope there will be no -X to charges BS in 9th edition's terrain rules. It massively decreases the chances of succeeding long range charges, stacks with 3D movments you potentially have to do and disproportionally benefits shooting units which are already superior to melee units in every way.

Variable range alone is enough to mess with charging armies.
Especially since they dont move if the charge fails, which i 100% do not understand. You cant even declare a charge outside 12" so not like its a free way to move up faster.

While unlikely, we don't know if that hasn't changed with 9th

I have a lot of hopes in terrain rules and some hopes in getting Ghaz boosted in 9th. I have no hope left we'll get any faq before 9th anymore, which is a tad boring, but just as well.
So far I'm stoked, I just hope there will be some opening for more competitive speed freaks and veichle heavy lists.
I love my boyz, but I'm so freaking tired of moving 180+ models all day...

I’m interested if Ghaz will remain unchanged in point cost.

If he gets relatively cheaper that would be a win.

I think weapons should have variable ranges, too. A weapon that is currently 24 inch range should have 17+2d6 range, for example. And you could have traits that allow you to reroll the range roll, and stratagems and unit abilities that would cause units hit by them to have to reduce their ranges by half!

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think weapons should have variable ranges, too. A weapon that is currently 24 inch range should have 17+2d6 range, for example. And you could have traits that allow you to reroll the range roll, and stratagems and unit abilities that would cause units hit by them to have to reduce their ranges by half!

You should start a thread suggesting that in general and just watch it burn to the ground

Screw variable range let’s get back to 2nd edition where I had to guess ranges by eye ballin it for my pulse rokkit!!

So I’m going to fire this rokkit 47.5 inches in a straight line to there.
I’m using my squig catapult at 28inches.

In all seriousness I would love a pulse rokkit back. Knocking models down and taking away thier movement next turn

Nobody actually guessed though. Well except noobs

Yeah right, "guessing". When eyeballing distances, my brain still measures things in battlewagons

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think weapons should have variable ranges, too. A weapon that is currently 24 inch range should have 17+2d6 range, for example. And you could have traits that allow you to reroll the range roll, and stratagems and unit abilities that would cause units hit by them to have to reduce their ranges by half!

Absolutely, what this game desperately needs is more rolls, and re-rolls

It's what we all play the game for, true addicts to dice rolling play orks of course. Love the sound of hundreds of dice bouncing across the table, the hypnotic brownian motion as they playfully skitter around the terrain.

Are there any more phases we could squeeze a cheeky roll in do you think?

Any more dice rolling than 8th and I will stop playing until they fix it. I 100% know many other players who will stop too (until fix)
This game desperately needs less dice rolling.

Of course with less units (With detachments costing CPs) and much less models (Point per model increases) this will happen, so I guess at least we will have that kind of garanteed from 9th

My ork opponent has a stratagem that lets him charge againnif he did mortal wounds on the charge. What units can you use that one on?

 Niiai wrote:
My ork opponent has a stratagem that lets him charge againnif he did mortal wounds on the charge. What units can you use that one on?

Basically it’s certain vehicles and squiggoths.

It’s a weird stratagem.

1) unit has to charge and cause mortal wounds.

2) the unit has to end up with no units within 1” after the mortal wounds are applied.

3) they can then charge again with this stratagem.

So random thought:

The Cut them Down stratagem refers to engagement range, and one of my regular opponent's insists that it will be 3" and every model within that range would be able to fight, no more rows. The unit would still have to be within 1" of the enemy to fight.

He also thinks this will greatly help orks getting more stuff into combat, but I heavily doubt so. Any opinions on this?

Well as with all things 9th edition, we will have to wait and see I suppose. But assuming it is true I prefer the change, without doing the math I think amount of models in combat should be roughly the same, but we don´t need to measure 1 inch, then 1 inch from that speeding the combat phase up a bit. Just a flat 3 inch from the enemy unit, bam done.

BrianDavion wrote:
So, given monsters can shoot in melee in 9th, you guys think this'll make much of a differance with Ghaz. I mean he has 12 shots with his weapon but... it's only BS5

In their podcast, Reece from FLG said that the new roles allow tanks and monsters to fire HEAVY weapons into the unit the are engaged with. I assumed he'd mispoken, but he clarified that he felt this screwed Bids, which are basically assault weapons across the board, and that it might you couldn't prevent tanks firing, but that you could dictate the target, so he obviously meant to say what he did.

If he's correct about the wording of the rule, Ghaz can't fire in combat. Hopefully he made an error, because it's very silly. Plagueburst Crawlers can't use anti infantry sponson flame weapons against close infantry but a Leman Russ can fire its battlecannon at a grot stood beneath its undercarriage?

nfe wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So, given monsters can shoot in melee in 9th, you guys think this'll make much of a differance with Ghaz. I mean he has 12 shots with his weapon but... it's only BS5

In their podcast, Reece from FLG said that the new roles allow tanks and monsters to fire HEAVY weapons into the unit the are engaged with. I assumed he'd mispoken, but he clarified that he felt this screwed Bids, which are basically assault weapons across the board, and that it might you couldn't prevent tanks firing, but that you could dictate the target, so he obviously meant to say what he did.

If he's correct about the wording of the rule, Ghaz can't fire in combat. Hopefully he made an error, because it's very silly. Plagueburst Crawlers can't use anti infantry sponson flame weapons against close infantry but a Leman Russ can fire its battlecannon at a grot stood beneath it's undercarriage?

That would go against what the rule team spoke in twitch. "and shoot at other stuff" in reference to tank in melee.

 Jidmah wrote:
So random thought:

The Cut them Down stratagem refers to engagement range, and one of my regular opponent's insists that it will be 3" and every model within that range would be able to fight, no more rows. The unit would still have to be within 1" of the enemy to fight.

He also thinks this will greatly help orks getting more stuff into combat, but I heavily doubt so. Any opinions on this?

I agree with you. I think it’ll be about the same or little better.

32 MM ~= 1.25 inches. I think with good-perfect placement we could get 3 lines in.

This will make it easier to get that 3rd line in and it’s a lot easier to actually figure out, but you could already do that with these rules so it shouldn’t net you more boys in combat generally.

I honestly hope that they empower tanks and monster, just as much they give more tools to horde players. I want variety more than everything.

The kind of variety that do not include power armour. Or better the imperium power armour, would be nice to see some insurgence back of chaos legions too.

Vehicles can fire all non-blast weapons into CC at -1 to hit, including Dreadnaughts.

if they include dreads they probably include monsters too.
Not that it really helps Ghaz, his lackluster weapon hitting on 5s isnt that great in the first place, hitting on 6s? pfft

Yeah, Ghaz's gun is still pretty useless. But Skorchas might get a jump start on life.

I wonder if Dreads will get a big jump in price, especially the SM versions, which often have good guns and a good BS.

I gotta say, Killa Kans are looking nice. I wonder if they'll stay the same as Mega Nobs... they can shoot at normal Ork BS in CC, and a bunch of free Big Shootas shots is nice. Give one a skorcha just for flavour.


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-1 to hit when moving Heavy weapons now only applies to infantry.

Makes sense to me. I would laugh if the Legends Big Mek SAG on bike could zip around on his bike without penanlty.

technically with that ruling it can, but being legends they literally dont care.

Article is up with the rule for big guns never tire and holy wordy words batman! So it doesnt mention blast weapons cant fire into combat for some reason, but you can nominate outside of the combat as long as you fire it after the weapons that fire into the combat eliminate everything...i think? kinda hard to follow that block of words.
Also the -1 in combat is specifically for heavy weapons, vehicles with assaults are unaffected. Which is fine as vast majority of weapons on a vehicle is heavy, except for orks lol (our killakan/dreadz are gonna love this)

Yeah wow.

KK hit on 4s in CC. Gorks and Morks can unload in CC.

Ghaz hits on 5s. Better than nothing if someone tries to tar pit him.

I also have an absolute hate of howling banshees. Go ahead, tag me, my supa Skorcha will wipe you out

 Vineheart01 wrote:
technically with that ruling it can, but being legends they literally dont care.

Article is up with the rule for big guns never tire and holy wordy words batman! So it doesnt mention blast weapons cant fire into combat for some reason, but you can nominate outside of the combat as long as you fire it after the weapons that fire into the combat eliminate everything...i think? kinda hard to follow that block of words.
Also the -1 in combat is specifically for heavy weapons, vehicles with assaults are unaffected. Which is fine as vast majority of weapons on a vehicle is heavy, except for orks lol (our killakan/dreadz are gonna love this)

The way I read it was that you can target another unit if you have multiple guns, but you can only make the actual attacks if you kill everything within 1" by the time you get to that gun's turn in the firing order.


ES deff dreads with 2 klaw/saw/skorcha become even more viable. Worth going double skorcha?

I can't wait to have a gorkanaut shoot into melee. That's a silly amount of dakka on top of melee attacks.

And Ghaz actually gets something that helps him clear chaff, even if only a little bit. But he still needs "this model counts as infantry for the purposes of other Ork special rules and stratagems" or something similar.

yeah seeing that ghaz is not shooting on 6s helps a lot.
Ive been using him because pfft its ghaz zog off he's da best. Keeps getting tarpitted by cultists, forcing my boyz/nobz to come to his aid to get him out of it.

I honestly wonder how much anti tank we might need now.

Vehicles are sounding a lot better in general. And tagging them no longer sounds viable outside of niche cases.

Boom boy tank busters starting to look better?


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I dunno how y'all feel, but man is it looking dire for light infantry. Hopefully they throw them a bone because boys are looking even more boned then they were in 8th.

They might be relegated to tellyporta / outflank only, and even then, they can't even tag vehicles anymore.

Boomboys is dead with the current detachment rules making you pay 1-3cp for another detachment

Also scorchas were never bad just overpriced... it all depends on point costs.

Nah, skorchas were bad.

Everything that could take them were either super squishy/sacrificed melee for it (nobz, deffdreads) or realistically only got to fire the damn thing ONCE due to its reach and now youre stuck in combat forever.

Heck i usually completely forget the Gork even has a skorcha because i am almost always at 9" when someone charges me or im Ramming Speeding a 10" charge or so, meaning i never even got to use it in the first place.

Assuming vehicles that truely benefit from this in 9th (i.e. can melee and take skorchas) dont get overhyked in price, this makes skorchas pretty good as they will keep using them.

Also we dont know the cost for each detachment, its possible the other detachments like Patrol, Outrider, Vanguard, etc are only 1cp each. 1cp to have your 3-4 units that REALLY want boomboyz or grotmobz would still be worth it.

gungo wrote:
Boomboys is dead with the current detachment rules making you pay 1-3cp for another detachment

Also scorchas were never bad just overpriced... it all depends on point costs.

Given you could almost never fire them I dunno if I agree. That concern is gone though!

If patrols are only 1 CP, I think armies are gonna spam the hell out of them. I’ll gladly give up 1-2 CP to take useful other clans.

Vehicles being able to shoot in combat makes both the KBB and the scrapjet with korkscrew upgrade look extremely sexy.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.
KBB's main thing that urked me was it had the spiked ram but no melee. Well now it dakkas in melee anyway, and lethally enough to potentially shoot it out of combat so it can immediately charge again!

 Jidmah wrote:
Vehicles being able to shoot in combat makes both the KBB and the scrapjet with korkscrew upgrade look extremely sexy.

Do you mean Da Burnin' Highway stratagem? I'm not sure mortal wounds on 6s is still worth it, but getting 12 auto hitting skorcha attacks for 1 CP doesn't look too bad.

Yeah, I'm glad this gives the Ork buggies a new lease on life, thanks to the stuff we've gotten from SoTB on top of this. We're definitely going to see a return of parking lots in this edition, we'll see if being counted as horde gives any actual benefits and not just downsides. Maybe they extend the amount of engagement range if you qualify? It'd be good to not entirely destroy horde builds for Tyranids or Orks, especially since model count will already be lower due to points increases across the board.

and suddenly im remembering the guy that took what was it 20 buggies to a tournament?
Bet that guy is loving these thoughts.

I wonder if this will see Grotzookas come back into popularity. Ignoring the hit penalty and being able to fire into combat after you reach the lines does give them some umph.

tulun wrote:

gungo wrote:
Boomboys is dead with the current detachment rules making you pay 1-3cp for another detachment

Also scorchas were never bad just overpriced... it all depends on point costs.

Given you could almost never fire them I dunno if I agree. That concern is gone though!

If patrols are only 1 CP, I think armies are gonna spam the hell out of them. I’ll gladly give up 1-2 CP to take useful other clans.

We are already down on CP from the detachment changes. I was regularly using triple bat for 18cp.
I’m now down to 12 regen 1 a turn with at best the first 2-3 rounds being all that matters.

If I am eating additional CP beyond my current use its going to be a problem especially anything beyond 1cp detachment is useless.

Regarding skorchas I used them regularly when the index allowed them on kommandoes they were great and are useful in combat since they are essentially power weapons. Kommandos with reroll wounds in melee and +1 in terrain made those free burnas and kommandos really versatile.

cody.d. wrote:
I wonder if this will see Grotzookas come back into popularity. Ignoring the hit penalty and being able to fire into combat after you reach the lines does give them some umph.

They may very well go back to being blast weapons, so wouldn't be able to shoot in melee (but would be better vs hordes, I suppose).

Still, I'm excited for even the potential to run my kans and dreads in force. This makes a lot of ork vehicles much more appealing, so we'll at least have that to look forward to even if boyz need to take an edition off.

 Trimarius wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I wonder if this will see Grotzookas come back into popularity. Ignoring the hit penalty and being able to fire into combat after you reach the lines does give them some umph.

They may very well go back to being blast weapons, so wouldn't be able to shoot in melee (but would be better vs hordes, I suppose).

Still, I'm excited for even the potential to run my kans and dreads in force. This makes a lot of ork vehicles much more appealing, so we'll at least have that to look forward to even if boyz need to take an edition off.

It would be odd if they were considered blast to be honest. Always was. They are described as being more like blunderbuss' so essentially shotguns. You'd imagine the best place to fire them would be at pointblank range.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Vehicles being able to shoot in combat makes both the KBB and the scrapjet with korkscrew upgrade look extremely sexy.

Do you mean Da Burnin' Highway stratagem? I'm not sure mortal wounds on 6s is still worth it, but getting 12 auto hitting skorcha attacks for 1 CP doesn't look too bad.

Nah, just the buggy itself. It already murders light infantry without the help of the stratagem. Just shoot, dive it into them and then force then shoot them again next turn.
In the games I played post SotB, I rarely felt the need to use that stratagem.


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cody.d. wrote:
It would be odd if they were considered blast to be honest. Always was. They are described as being more like blunderbuss' so essentially shotguns. You'd imagine the best place to fire them would be at pointblank range.

Still, it would provide them with a reason to exist. Otherwise, they'll always be worse big shootas, and that is a really bad place to be.

If the grotzookas were assault at least it would be 5 pts for extra shot, extra S and with kan klaws would be same in melee. Now -1 to hit within melee yeah worse big shoota. Now might just as well be blast. Lack of shooting in melee doesn't matter much when you would suffer from -1 anyway non blast.

Let's hope they don't forget to errata nauts so they can properly use their main guns in combat.

I doubt the main guns go from heavy to assault for nauts.

But they might change Big ’n’ Stompy though.

 Jidmah wrote:
But they might change Big ’n’ Stompy though.

Probably BigNStompy will make heavy weapons act as assault weapons in the fight phase, but I would prefer something smarter, like engaging from 2' away instead of 1', somethin shiny somethin new, praise gork n mork, GW take my teeth, Waaaagh ! (edit: sorry for this orky outburst)

Cause this is massive for us:

Blast weapons at 6+ models get a MINIMUM number of shots (say you roll a d6; your minimum would be 3).

At 11+ models, it's max shots.

Sadly, ammo runts push some of our smexy units into max shot range. I wonder if taking 10 flash gits + 2 runts is a good idea now.

I'm glad they at least made it tiered, but it's still pretty brutal. Even less reasons to field trukkboyz now. Might have to consider going all Nobz for my Trukks, which will no doubt be even more expensive than it is now.

the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/10/having-a-blastgw-homepage-post-1/

Sounds like d3 weapons can get it. It's just your dice roll counts as a 3 IF you roll less than a 3.

IE: D3 weapons get 2-3 shots on a unit size of 6-10.

They said on the live stream there will be rules that help hordes out. They reference terrain and outflank, and I somehow think cover saves are going to be improved for hordes. I saw someone suggest that you could do something like make cover (like ruins) give a base 4+ armour save, which would definitely give a nice free boost to infantry while removing the thing I find most annoying -- high AV save units benefit from cover while light infantry doesn't.

Although that would remove any bonus for heavy infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, may I just say, if Smasha guns get blast (which I expect the will), boy howdy will they mess up big feth you squads of heavy infantry.

So far terrain rules they have previewed are a) what has been in use for years b) help msu more than horde. Need huge change.

Also doubtful outflank is holy grail. Orks already have tellyporta that doesn"t restrict coming to sides.

D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

yukishiro1 wrote:
D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

Yeah by the wording is 3 attacks, not a 3 on the die... that's interesting.

That makes weird things like thunderfire cannons basically not getting any benefit at all (4d3 means you're minimum is 4 anyway), but that breakpoint at 11+ models turns that gak bonkers.

Seems like 6-10 models will usually be okay, and that single die, d6 blast weapons are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

man alive though, it'll be bad to be an 11+ squad.

Yeah, the penalty for running 6-10 is actually very small; it only increases the average by 1 shot for a 1DX weapon, and by virtually nothing for a 2DX weapon.

The penalty against 11+, however, is brutal for anything that's a D6 weapon or above.

I think squads of between 11 and 20 will pretty much just totally disappear. You'll see lots of units of 10, and occasionally units of 20-30, but nothing in-between.

I do not really see why this is a good change, to be honest. I don't see what it accomplishes in making the game better.

I think I'm going to go with nob squads with deff dreads and nauts over blobs of boys this edition based on what I'm seeing so far.

tulun wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

Yeah by the wording is 3 attacks, not a 3 on the die... that's interesting.

That makes weird things like thunderfire cannons basically not getting any benefit at all (4d3 means you're minimum is 4 anyway), but that breakpoint at 11+ models turns that gak bonkers.

Seems like 6-10 models will usually be okay, and that single die, d6 blast weapons are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

man alive though, it'll be bad to be an 11+ squad.

Ummm if its result 3 minimum and not roll then thunderfire is 12 vs 6+ models? Or what did i misread?

Or is it combined total and not individual dice? Well that helps vs tfc. Less so vs leman russ as both d6 are separate attacks anyway

tulun wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
D-Cannons are D3, and it was one of the examples given. For D3 it just means you always get three against any unit that's 6 or more.

Yeah by the wording is 3 attacks, not a 3 on the die... that's interesting.

That makes weird things like thunderfire cannons basically not getting any benefit at all (4d3 means you're minimum is 4 anyway), but that breakpoint at 11+ models turns that gak bonkers.

Seems like 6-10 models will usually be okay, and that single die, d6 blast weapons are the biggest beneficiaries of this rule.

man alive though, it'll be bad to be an 11+ squad.

I thought Thunderfire canons would get their 12 shots (4*3) out for any 6+ model target. Strong yes, but how many points would that make them then ?

Edit; yes what Tneva said

For points with gw price drop is as likely as increase

The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

tulun wrote:
The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

Ya, I keep feeling like I'm in some weird alternate reality because of the way some peoples math is today. Minimum on 3d3 shots would be 3 shots, not 9.

Kinda sucks that units that have a 10 man base size are stuck with being vulnerable with this change. We'll have to see what cover mechanics can help mitigate some of the increased damage the units are taking, since Grots are going to have to really bank on being short to survive shooting otherwise.

 Grimskul wrote:
Kinda sucks that units that have a 10 man base size are stuck with being vulnerable with this change. We'll have to see what cover mechanics can help mitigate some of the increased damage the units are taking, since Grots are going to have to really bank on being short to survive shooting otherwise.

10 good. 11 bad

 Haasbioroid wrote:

tulun wrote:
The article says 3 attacks minimum, not a minimum of 3 on the die.

Ya, I keep feeling like I'm in some weird alternate reality because of the way some peoples math is today. Minimum on 3d3 shots would be 3 shots, not 9.

It could be they actually mean each die knowing GW, but as written this won't really help weapons that already have high minimums.

Based on what they were saying in the livestream, I wonder if they meant each DIE, as they were talking about how nasty Volcano cannons are against intercessors.

tneva82 wrote:
So far terrain rules they have previewed are a) what has been in use for years b) help msu more than horde. Need huge change.

Also doubtful outflank is holy grail. Orks already have tellyporta that doesn"t restrict coming to sides.

We also know that units will be able to fight up one floor, just for completeness.

Nobz definitely wont want ammo runts now unless you arent a full nob squad anyway.
Which isnt exactly a big problem, regular nobz dont really have any stratagems worth using on them anyway. So just split the unit up rather than run a full one for 2 ammo runts.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now.. murdering monsters, vehicles and now murders hoards with its max 12 shots.
If smashas get buffed by the blast I fully expect another price hike.

gungo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now

Well the SSAG isn't really firing at hordes, but 12 x2 shots per turn makes it actually good against them now lol.

For the stuff we wanna shoot, it seems about the same, as your minimum is now 3 shots instead of 2 against 6-10 squads.. not a big diff.

Regular SAGs though are far more consistent against stuff they might be shooting at.

tulun wrote:

gungo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the fact that the rule only mentions D6 makes me wonder if any D3 or multi-D3 weapons will even get Blast.
As is, if they dont specify that, D3 shot weapons score 3 hits w/o rolling on 6+ models. Which is...weird...
Which if the Mork's gun gets Blast would laughably buff that thing since it rolls 3D3....it would always do 9 hits against 6+ model units.
I have a feeling theres a massive oversight here lol... even if blast ends up being somewhat rare surely some weapons that do D3 should be considered blast.

Also full shots at 11+ is extremely irritating. Playing marines? Never happens to you! Playing literally anybody else? Watch it! really should be 21+.... nobody has ever viewed a 10man squad as a "horde"

Doubtful d3 weapons get it. Not even all d6 weapons get it.

It's gw pushing elites hard. For orks i expect battlewagons and walkers be a thing. For my necrons join the existing trend in 8th and go troopless. Sisters drop extra members and just run 5 strong troop squads. Need hell of a stratagem to field more than 5 model units

The rule as written doesn’t say each die is a minimum of 3 it says the total hits on all dice is a minimum of 3.. which means 3d3 is still Min 3....
However that SSAG looks mighty sexy now

Well the SSAG isn't really firing at hordes, but 12 x2 shots per turn makes it actually good against them now lol.

For the stuff we wanna shoot, it seems about the same, as your minimum is now 3 shots instead of 2 against 6-10 squads.. not a big diff.

Regular SAGs though are far more consistent against stuff they might be shooting at.

I’m just saying SSAG not only murders monsters and vehicles.. it also does a number on hoards... so you never really don’t have a target...
regardless if I had to guess the Meta for 9th I am expecting MSU to make a return. I don’t expect a lot of 11+ units. So I don’t expect a lot of people focusing on anti horde weapons.
Also things to note
Da boomer got much better 2d6 x2 is just mean... even if the unit is only 6-10 models you are still getting min 6 hits or a crazy 24 hits vs 11+
Kinda the Morkanaut
And most Mek guns Become interesting

Comment from reddit:

"On stream they clarified D3 blast.

It counts as having rolled a 3 on the dice against 6-10 models. Which gets turned down to a 2.

So massed D3 shots like a TFC 4D3 gets min 8 shots against a 6-10 blob vs the min 6 shots from a 2D6 weapon."

Maybe we can confirm if this wording is correct, but yeah, sounds like they are accounting for multiple die rolls as getting MINIMUM 3, which makes more sense than this 3 attacks nonsense.

that completely conflicts with the article, hopefully the rule in the actual book is clarified better.

As i pointed out in their FB post, its not necessarily a "bad" thing that say a 4D6 gun has a minimum of 3 shots (which is impossible to get) and against 11+ models suddenly automatically does 24, its just really...really weird.
Such guns are rare, so it felt really odd that multi-dice random shot guns got fudged a bit.
Also before anyone says "such a gun wouldnt fire at hordes anyway" remember that Orks especially but some others as well DO have vehicle units that goto 6man squads, unless i missed it Blast doesnt care about what its targeting, just how many. That kind of gun would totally fire against a blob of Grot Tanks or Killakanz, especially in 9th where presumably theyre a fair bit more of a threat than currently.

Yeah, I'm sick of playing footsloggers anyway. I have the feeling that I'd lean to a single spearhead detachment in 9th. Heavy support are too limited in a battallion, there are too many tax units in a brigade, and not so many CPs to start with if a second detachment is added.

Lootas, among others, will hate the blast rule, so will large squads of meganobz with 6+ models. At least tankbustas can still be 2x5 in the same trukk and laugh at the blast rule, however the bomb squig will make them 6, and an ammo runt will probably add more penalties than benefits for a 5 man squad of flash gitz.

The blast rule could make KMKs more appealing unless they disgustingly go up in points. Too bad that the majority of heavy infantry units are perfectly functioning with 3-5 dudes.

What about flamers? Shouldn't they get a bonus for targeting large squads as well?

i would assume flamers get a big enough bonus for vehicles getting to fire them in combat.
Though i wouldnt be surprised if the "flamer weapons ignore cover by default" rule comes back. Always bugged me that they somehow dont block cover anymore when historically that was the POINT of flame weapons was to bunker-bomb people in a building easily.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i would assume flamers get a big enough bonus for vehicles getting to fire them in combat.
Though i wouldnt be surprised if the "flamer weapons ignore cover by default" rule comes back. Always bugged me that they somehow dont block cover anymore when historically that was the POINT of flame weapons was to bunker-bomb people in a building easily.

What about our poor but always beloved burnaboyz?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that completely conflicts with the article, hopefully the rule in the actual book is clarified better.

As i pointed out in their FB post, its not necessarily a "bad" thing that say a 4D6 gun has a minimum of 3 shots (which is impossible to get) and against 11+ models suddenly automatically does 24, its just really...really weird.
Such guns are rare, so it felt really odd that multi-dice random shot guns got fudged a bit.
Also before anyone says "such a gun wouldnt fire at hordes anyway" remember that Orks especially but some others as well DO have vehicle units that goto 6man squads, unless i missed it Blast doesnt care about what its targeting, just how many. That kind of gun would totally fire against a blob of Grot Tanks or Killakanz, especially in 9th where presumably theyre a fair bit more of a threat than currently.

We’ll see. It just seems off that two lobbas will get a minimum of double the shots of a big lobba ( Which represents a bigger blast radius ). The supa lobba would only get 3 shots with a bad roll, which then goes up 6x if somehow an 11th loser stands in coherency.

That seems to go against the intent of what they’re trying to do.

I’m glad KK are interesting at 5 as a side note.

Also as a side note: it legend point cost are not adjusted, do people think people will stop allowing them casually?

at this point, ive stopped hoping for something for burna boyz. Until they give them proper stats/rules WITHOUT hyking their price or making them freakishly cheap, i'll never use them.
The fact that they werent a Troop plus a few points should have been enough of a difference between them and boyz, given theyre tissue paper anyway. Not 3x the boy cost for at best 2x the boy damage (not factoring travel time for that damage)

Random thought. Will the Scrapjet's rokkit kannon get blast you reckon? If so it has up and downsides. Slap out a good amount of shots against 6 man units, but also can't fire them in CQC which I suspect is where it will really shine otherwise.

Considering how it just is a rokkit, it shouldn't be a blast.

I guess we're still waiting for the FAQ to find out if the Gunwagon's shoot-twice officially works with Da Boomer?

Since stikkbombs are blast weapons, tankbusta bombs probably are as well, right? Spending a CP to throw 10 of them and reliably putting out 20-30 shots plus dakka-dakka sounds pretty good.

 Khorzain wrote:
I guess we're still waiting for the FAQ to find out if the Gunwagon's shoot-twice officially works with Da Boomer?

Since stikkbombs are blast weapons, tankbusta bombs probably are as well, right? Spending a CP to throw 10 of them and reliably putting out 20-30 shots plus dakka-dakka sounds pretty good.

They might be. But mind you old Grenades used to use the small blast marker while melta and tankbusta bombs were single shot.

On Burnaboyz?

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see them gone and just woven into Slugga Boyz as a weapon option.

(Slugga Boyz could take a Burna or Big Choppa every ten models, Shoota Boyz could take a Big Shoota or ROkkit for every ten models.)

They just don't *work* as a unit in and of themselves.

Wakshaani wrote:
On Burnaboyz?

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see them gone and just woven into Slugga Boyz as a weapon option.

(Slugga Boyz could take a Burna or Big Choppa every ten models, Shoota Boyz could take a Big Shoota or ROkkit for every ten models.)

They just don't *work* as a unit in and of themselves.

I'd be cool with that tbh, especially if they make a distinction between Shootas/Sluggas statswise to promote those weaponry in some way. Make it so a mob of 20+ shoota boyz gain +1 to hit when shooting ranged weapons.

Burna Boyz are a classic example of having a specialist boy unit that doesn't know what it wants to be. As a ranged anti-infantry unit, they're inferior to the majority of options in the Ork codex (and one in which Orks in general are not lacking) and in CC the lack the damage and the weight of attacks to beat regular boyz or Meganobz. They need an entire overhaul of their unit, including stratagem support, to make them a unit worth considering.

What is the point of this rule. Did anyone ask for this.

MSUhammer.

Please make transports and truckboys not garbage.

tneva82 wrote:
So far terrain rules they have previewed are a) what has been in use for years b) help msu more than horde. Need huge change.

Also doubtful outflank is holy grail. Orks already have tellyporta that doesn"t restrict coming to sides.

When is terrain not more helpful for MSU.

Smaller unit e.g. easier to fit behind terrain and easier to maneuver. Easier to fit inside ruins or on second floor balcony. More room to maneuver in said spaces due to less bodies.
They also typically benefit more from +1 armor save.

Eh that was pretty much my point...

Unless terrain once again confers its own save much like in the editions before 8th. In which case it usually works out better for low save units.

Unless they change how you gain benefit and not just what you get not much help. So far msu has been only benefitter to revealed terrain rules

Wakshaani wrote:
On Burnaboyz?

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see them gone and just woven into Slugga Boyz as a weapon option.

(Slugga Boyz could take a Burna or Big Choppa every ten models, Shoota Boyz could take a Big Shoota or ROkkit for every ten models.)

They just don't *work* as a unit in and of themselves.

Burnas should be anti infantry specialist
Burnas need Over 9in range (prefer 12in) and usable by kommandos again
The d3 hits is hot garbage... it should either be a flat 3 hits or d6 like the majority of flamers in game
In other words 12" Assault3 S4 Ap-2 D1 in both melee and shooting

Pyromaniacs is literal garbage and it should be either reroll wounds or +1 to wound rolls to all infantry and monstrous creatures
Also give them burna bottles grenades
6in grenade 2d6 s4 ap0 d1 ignore cover

Or if they want to go all 9th edition instead of flamers make them blast weapons and give them d6 hits. Meaning on units of 6+ they do 3 hits min and on units of 11+ they do 6 hits min per model. But the point is burnas should be anti horde specialists

Before too many people panic about the blast rules, GW seems to be borrowing a lot from AOS's innovations with this edition. they've said some goodies for hoards etc are coming up one thing AOS does in some of their army books is give some units a bonus if you take more then X number of units. for example if your chaos warrior squad is 10 or more models, you may re-roll your armor saves. it's possiable we're gonna see things like this in 40k.
which would honestly be a good movie because even the 8E rules tended to push MSU

gungo wrote:
Or if they want to go all 9th edition instead of flamers make them blast weapons and give them d6 hits. Meaning on units of 6+ they do 3 hits min and on units of 11+ they do 6 hits min per model. But the point is burnas should be anti horde specialists

Then they wouldn't be shooting in melee. Flamers aren't blast weapons in 9th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Before too many people panic about the blast rules, GW seems to be borrowing a lot from AOS's innovations with this edition. they've said some goodies for hoards etc are coming up one thing AOS does in some of their army books is give some units a bonus if you take more then X number of units. for example if your chaos warrior squad is 10 or more models, you may re-roll your armor saves. it's possiable we're gonna see things like this in 40k.
which would honestly be a good movie because even the 8E rules tended to push MSU

GW says a lot. Generally opposite of truths. Playtesters meanwhile have said we haven't even SEEN all the nerfs...

GW is pushing for elite units, vehicles and monsters. Hordes sold enough at the start of 8th ed hard to sell more so now GW is going to push for opposite since market is less saturated there. And GW is about as subtle about that as nuclear missile.

Actually, traditionally the idea of burnas was that they could clear out light infantry with flamers and cut apart armor apart with their cutter melee weapon.

The are weak on the first part and fail hard on the second, so my suggestion would be bringing them back to d6 hits on the burna profile and make the cutter profile deal 2 damage, so the can actually threaten vehicles and elite infantry in combat. It would also generate a niche for them, as other units in the codex can't easily clear out elite infantry in combat.

BrianDavion wrote:
Before too many people panic about the blast rules, GW seems to be borrowing a lot from AOS's innovations with this edition. they've said some goodies for hoards etc are coming up one thing AOS does in some of their army books is give some units a bonus if you take more then X number of units. for example if your chaos warrior squad is 10 or more models, you may re-roll your armor saves. it's possiable we're gonna see things like this in 40k.
which would honestly be a good movie because even the 8E rules tended to push MSU

I don't think 8th favored MSU over large squads, I think it worked fine for both. Large squads benefited most from stratagems and received buffs from being min 10 or min 20 (boyz, stealers, etc.). But MSU was better for covering more ground, having your opponent risk overkill, etc.

I don't think 9th will change this, because MSU will require many detachments, and "waste" CP, and rumors of extra benefits (we haven't heard of yet) for large units have been persistent for a while (granted, this may prove to be untrue or not quite true).

I think GW has got the balance right regarding MSU / large units. They will definately screw other stuff up, though. I have absolutely no doubts.

Plenty of people are saying "maybe" there's extra benefits. That doesn't make it rumour. We have had playtesters say there's nerfs we haven't heard though...

And detachments isn't big issue. For one when that becomes issue you can usually have brigade. And point increases means you are cutting down in # of units anyway and since 9th favours elites those units aren't cheap. Having made bunch of lists I rarely run into slot issues with even just battalion.

Hordes are so screwed. Large light infantry was already struggling in 8th. Now they are screwed hard. 10 was already largest you generally wanted to go and that was if you had good stratagem.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Or if they want to go all 9th edition instead of flamers make them blast weapons and give them d6 hits. Meaning on units of 6+ they do 3 hits min and on units of 11+ they do 6 hits min per model. But the point is burnas should be anti horde specialists

Then they wouldn't be shooting in melee. Flamers aren't blast weapons in 9th ed.
.

They wouldn’t anyway since it’s infantry not vehicles
Also burnas have a seperate melee profile

IMHO flamers should be given a special rule (I dunno call it "Flame") rule that has the same rule as blast except can be used in close combat.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO flamers should be given a special rule (I dunno call it "Flame") rule that has the same rule as blast except can be used in close combat.

Just crib the name from the exception rule for Templates re: Overwatch from 6th/7th - "Wall of Death".

What about giving burnas 2 profiles; Burna and Kutta, but both are shooting profiles?

Burna would be 9" range Assault D6 autohits S4 AP-1
Kutta would be 3" range Pistol 1 S7 AP-3 Dam2

Thus the kutta can be fired in close combat, but also be useful at short range if you get it lined up well, increasing their usefulness.

With the changes to vehicles in 9th ed in mind, what do people think about putting a skorcha onto your deff dreads to help against them getting tar pitted?

Madjob wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO flamers should be given a special rule (I dunno call it "Flame") rule that has the same rule as blast except can be used in close combat.

Just crib the name from the exception rule for Templates re: Overwatch from 6th/7th - "Wall of Death".

How was that?

 DrGiggles wrote:
With the changes to vehicles in 9th ed in mind, what do people think about putting a skorcha onto your deff dreads to help against them getting tar pitted?

It'll probably just depends on points cost, but a Skorcha is no longer straight up unviable anymore, where you might be lucky to get a shot off once every SEVERAL games.

For a CC focused dread, having 1 Skorcha doesn't seem too bad (lose 1 attack for flaming gits).

Edit: honestly though, with the new Deff Dread stratagem where you can get bonus attacks for killing models, it might just be more prudent to use that over spending the extra on a skorcha.

 Emicrania wrote:

Madjob wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO flamers should be given a special rule (I dunno call it "Flame") rule that has the same rule as blast except can be used in close combat.

Just crib the name from the exception rule for Templates re: Overwatch from 6th/7th - "Wall of Death".

How was that?

Overwatch couldn't be fired by blast/large blast/template in 6th/7th because Overwatch = Snap Shots (moving and firing Heavy but only hitting on 6s, disallowed for those weapon types) but Templates had an exception under their rules for Overwatch specifically, titled "Wall of Death" which let them fire D3 automatic hits in overwatch.

I was just suggesting taking that name and using it for a special rule on Flamer weapons to fire them in CC.

So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Hiding 30 boys fully behind terrain will be hard. That’s sort of the problem.

I’m not sure. Possibly. But my MANz love this and I never want my boys in cover, just behind it.

Our 18+ wound Gorks can potentially can shot without shooting back. Very interesting.

Obsuring is worded very weirdly, i had to read that like 5 times to understand it.
Also is it just me or does this shaft 18+ wound models?

I'm dumb. Charging REMOVES the armour save bonus. Subsequent rounds both would get the bonus.

This still heavily favours elite armies, but a charging Mega Nob into heavy cover gets a 1+ save, and a charging Nob gets a 3+ save. That's solid.

It's not like you could hide a naut under any previous rule-set unless your boards look like like tneva's.

It also reads a lot like you can still have true LoS blocking things in addition to obscuring terrain.

Oof.

Keeping the +1 armor save, vs giving an invulnerable save like older editions, was a deathblow for hordes.

Looks like this'll be a Deathskulls and Badmoons edition for the Orks, using small units of high-cost models, or vehicles, and leaving the boys at home.

Sorry Goffs and Snakebites. Better luck in 10th. :(

the best way im seeing this is basically oldschool LoS rules are back, except its still not on a model by model basis (im going to shoot the ones not in cover) with the added LoS blocking 5" tall terrain thing.
Which other than multi leveled things...isnt really much. Though the GW terrain will be rather annoying, that absolutely huge 2-level wall for instance will be annoying.

Wakshaani wrote:
Oof.

Keeping the +1 armor save, vs giving an invulnerable save like older editions, was a deathblow for hordes.

Looks like this'll be a Deathskulls and Badmoons edition for the Orks, using small units of high-cost models, or vehicles, and leaving the boys at home.

Sorry Goffs and Snakebites. Better luck in 10th. :(

Ork Boyz might have uses in outflank / deep strike maneuvers like they do now, but unless they stay the same cost, or somehow these other terrain keywords throw them a bone, it seems like you don't wanna start them on the table.

Edit: from someone I know who works at a GW store and probably has more spoilers (he can't break NDA), board density of city terrain will help a bit (IE, you might be able to hide some stuff).

In his opinion, though, it seems like elite heavy infantry will thrive under the rules we've seen and he's seen. Terminators and Primaris.

Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine. I just think cover being an elite armies game seems rather stupid.

Terrain Cover is once again per model
Ghaz is under 18 wounds
The cover rule is weirdly written but the charging unit removes the melee bonus save From the defender but will still benefit from it if the model ends it’s charge on the terrain. <- it doesn’t make sense but that’s how it’s written to a boon to melee

I’m still seeing MSU all day long..

Also the +1 save is helpful to bloodaxes
And remember the kff change

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And remember the kff change

The KFF seems massive on paper, and in 8th it probably could have been, but with very limited HQ choices that big mek has a lot of competition and other KFF sources still affect only shooting. We also don't know if the big mek with KFF will be cheap enough to be good with the new points hikes.

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....

You can. Take a brigade. Or just accept you’ll only have 15 CP over the game, and take two battalions. That’s better than that army would have this edition anyway.

I honestly think patrols will cost 1 CP, which will give us those precious extra HQs we need.

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And remember the kff change

The KFF seems massive on paper, and in 8th it probably could have been, but with very limited HQ choices that big mek has a lot of competition and other KFF sources still affect only shooting. We also don't know if the big mek with KFF will be cheap enough to be good with the new points hikes.

Since we have no faq yet and the kff has substantial changed including points. Im assuming the points are intended right now. So I don’t foresee a price hike on a book released 3 months before a new edition. Plus I’m assuming the new kff is going to be universal. These were to drastic of a change to just assume it’s all a misprint

tulun wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....

You can. Take a brigade. Or just accept you’ll only have 15 CP over the game, and take two battalions. That’s better than that army would have this edition anyway.

I honestly think patrols will cost 1 CP, which will give us those precious extra HQs we need.

No, I can't. Brigade means lots of tax units and combined with the new points hikes it won't be a reasonable option. Two battallions means 12 CPs top of turn 3, 13 with the Follow me Ladz! trait, which is definitely not enough. At the end of the edition I used to go 3x battallion along with that trait, so 19 CPs, 6 cheap and effective HQs and more than 3 HS. 18-19 CPs are easily burned in 3 turns at most in competitive games.

Adding detachments costs CPs and if patrols were really CPs that could help, if they come with a higher CPs cost they won't be particularly appealing. Of course I'll wait all the rules and the new points values to come out before starting listbuilding but the more new rules I see the more I think of going with a spearhead and lots of walkers, mek gunz, tanks, buggies, meganobz.... maybe with no troops at all, unless min squads of gretchins become useful to score secondaries.

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Except if you even touch terrain area you are shot freely even if physically can't be seen.

Ironic. Players in 8th made rule so you can"t be seen even if physically seen. Gw makes opposite.

And triumph i just got painted got nerfed. 18w so obscured pieces don't block los to it period. Gorkanaut ditto can be seen freely. In 8th having it hidden to atleast some enemies was standard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And remember the kff change

The KFF seems massive on paper, and in 8th it probably could have been, but with very limited HQ choices that big mek has a lot of competition and other KFF sources still affect only shooting. We also don't know if the big mek with KFF will be cheap enough to be good with the new points hikes.

Since we have no faq yet and the kff has substantial changed including points. Im assuming the points are intended right now. So I don’t foresee a price hike on a book released 3 months before a new edition. Plus I’m assuming the new kff is going to be universal. These were to drastic of a change to just assume it’s all a misprint

It was written for 8th. Vlrtually verything in 9th will be going up. Base measure changes so only reason 9th ed price doesn't change would be if 8th ed was seriously overpriced

Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Doesn't the cover rule affect models, and not units? It's impossible to hide 30 dudes but some of them could. Still better than the idea of negating cover for the entire squad is just a single model in it doesn't get the benefit. Or, have I read it wrong?

We LL know more in details next week I'm sure. Somebody else think that the new mat with the "recommend" size will be in the box?

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Although I know you're partially kidding, because if we can't, they are liabilities on the board.

If we can actually hide certain sizes of boys behind obscuring terrain mid board, Boys might be okay. It makes me wonder, actually, that 30 man squads *won't* be takable. This edition was already killy enough, and exposed units are even more dead in 9th. Less stuff on the board, sure, but if it sees you, it's getting max shots.

If obscuring terrain is common enough mid board close to objectives, though, maybe it's fine.

tulun wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Honestly, 30 boyz is physicaly the biggest unit in w40k? 30x32mm bases of green badasses. How can we complain, we can' t hide them?

Although I know you're partially kidding, because if we can't, they are liabilities on the board.

If we can actually hide certain sizes of boys behind obscuring terrain mid board, Boys might be okay. It makes me wonder, actually, that 30 man squads *won't* be takable. This edition was already killy enough, and exposed units are even more dead in 9th. Less stuff on the board, sure, but if it sees you, it's getting max shots.

If obscuring terrain is common enough mid board close to objectives, though, maybe it's fine.

I think if boyz go up to 8 and no more than that, having one 30 man blob to da jump turn 1 might still be useful, depending on how they price Meganobz and nobz. More than one mob of boys... I don’t feel like we will want to. Blocking your opponents movements turn 1, or rushing an objective turn 1 with tons of s4 attacks must still have a use.
I have 30 nobz and 15 meganobz so I don’t really care as long as at least One of these options is viable for a turn 1 da jump. But as Tulun says 30*32mm bases is the biggest footprint in 40k. It must have a da jump use turn 1

Still waiting for transport rules...

tneva82 wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Except if you even touch terrain area you are shot freely even if physically can't be seen.

'Models that are on or within this terrain feature can be targeted as normal'.

Why do you think 'as normal' means 'without line of sight?

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Wear a mask and stay 1m away from other users of said transport

One would assume "as normal" is referring to how we usually do it - can i physically see the model? Yes? I can shoot it. No? Cant shoot it.

If they got rid of that....theres going to be a LOT more heat surrounding cover than there was before. Because suddenly 18+ wound models can be targeted even if a 20" tall solid wall is in the way lol.

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

Dare I say...

Nobz in a 'Naut!?

Madjob wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still waiting for transport rules...

Yeah, if they change it so you can disembark and charge after the transport moves (either at half the movement or some other penalty), we could see boyz survive in mech lists, not to mention normal nobz and trukks/battlewagons actually doing their job delivering cargo into the enemy.

Dare I say...

Nobz in a 'Naut!?

Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

Do you think open-topped transports will allow passengers to shoot normally while the transport is in melee — or will they still be limited to Pistols-only?

tulun wrote:
Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

My morks job is to draw fire from buggies while providing them with a KFF. If they ignore it, it goes up to blow up a tank with shooting and smash whatever it manages to charge to bits.
It's actually one of the few distraction carnifexes in the game that works, I don't leave home without it anymore.

tneva82 wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:

tulun wrote:
So cover won’t be saving Orks. Still favours elite armies.

Sigh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/11/terrain-rules-and-line-of-sightgw-homepage-post-1/

I think 'obscuring' will help quite a bit on boards with a good amount of ruins on them (assuming the large ruins sit in the middle of the board).

Not sure what to make of the 'heavy cover' rule though. Is it supposed to simulate fighting in tight corridors/thick wooded areas?

Except if you even touch terrain area you are shot freely even if physically can't be seen.

Ironic. Players in 8th made rule so you can"t be seen even if physically seen. Gw makes opposite.

And triumph i just got painted got nerfed. 18w so obscured pieces don't block los to it period. Gorkanaut ditto can be seen freely. In 8th having it hidden to atleast some enemies was standard


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:


Honestly I love Mega Nobs, nobs, Killa Kans, and Deff Dreads in general, so this is all fine.

Me too. I'll start with Tin 'Eadz for sure Now, if only we could start with 6+ HS, 3-4 HQs and 18 CPs....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

And remember the kff change

The KFF seems massive on paper, and in 8th it probably could have been, but with very limited HQ choices that big mek has a lot of competition and other KFF sources still affect only shooting. We also don't know if the big mek with KFF will be cheap enough to be good with the new points hikes.

Since we have no faq yet and the kff has substantial changed including points. Im assuming the points are intended right now. So I don’t foresee a price hike on a book released 3 months before a new edition. Plus I’m assuming the new kff is going to be universal. These were to drastic of a change to just assume it’s all a misprint

It was written for 8th. Vlrtually verything in 9th will be going up. Base measure changes so only reason 9th ed price doesn't change would be if 8th ed was seriously overpriced

They literally flat out said it was designed to be used in 9th.. I di t know where you got it was written and designed for 8th.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
Oddly, this 18+ wound rule might make some interesting problems for the Gork / Morkanaut. Gork might still live in the Tellyporta, but it'll be interesting to see how the mork is affected, because it might really struggle to get good line of sight, and it'll still be shootable over obscuring terrain.

My morks job is to draw fire from buggies while providing them with a KFF. If they ignore it, it goes up to blow up a tank with shooting and smash whatever it manages to charge to bits.
It's actually one of the few distraction carnifexes in the game that works, I don't leave home without it anymore.

Me too, the morkanaut has never been a bad choice in lists that are heavy on wagons, trukks, buggies, planes and mek gunz. With PA we got a super cheap KFF that could have replaced the naut since it was super easy to have 6 HQs, but with the new style of listbuilding it may be be hard to field that big mek along with other necessary HQs, let alone more than one, so a not-too-expensive morkanaut will be very appreciated. I'd also like the megarmored big mek to get a reasonable points value because he can have a stratagem that makes him a warboss in stats and can take the killa klaw.

IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

For the Morkanaut we will have to see how much he will cost, and if he can get across terrain without too much trouble (because they said nothing about movement across terrain). If you need to protect stuff you send forward to grab midflield objectives, then perhaps the wazbomm will really be the best option. Also, let's hope the Wazbom doesn't cost too much in 9th...

It will be interesting to see if Ork players go back to shoota boyz with 'eavy armour as the standard troop choice if firing from transports gets buffed.

Whilst Snakebites typically prefer the traditional choppa, I could see a small 10 man unit of shoota boys with 'eavy armour and feel no pain being a nice way to lock down a terrain feature.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

Dreads and kans have the same M value of a footslogging mek, naut has only 8''. You just need to be in 9'' range to give the invuln, and with the new table size even vehicles can easily be in range for a couple of turns if not more. Which is what really matters actually, 1-2 turns of soaking firepower. Units like gitz or bustas in trukks tipycally don't want to go too far and the big mek will not be left behind. After turn 2 some of those armored stuff are dead anyway, while other ones may have reached the front lines and cannot go further so having a highly mobile source of KFF is not that mandatory. Also, you're assuming the the opponent plays a gunline, and the ork player must rush everything as fast as possible, but he might has units that want to come forward as well. Dreads, kanz and even a wagon with a unit embarked don't have to go too far is your 6 mek gunz get threatened by a fast or deep striking enemy unit. A 9'' bubble for single units, especially those ones with large footprint, or small squadrons, actually is something reliable. It's terrible for covering boyz, which is something I never even considered in 8th.

Morkanaut and wazobom are both good, but also 500 points vs 110 (assuming 2 big meks with KFF) with 8th points values.

I'm not fearing to leave the meks behing, I'm more concerned about having to choose between them and other competitive HQs because we are now very limited on the HQs slots available if we want to keep CPs. And mechanized lists tipycally love CPs thanks to kustom jobs. Two big meks sound hard to field with the new detachment system, maybe even one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroem wrote:
It will be interesting to see if Ork players go back to shoota boyz with 'eavy armour as the standard troop choice if firing from transports gets buffed.

Whilst Snakebites typically prefer the traditional choppa, I could see a small 10 man unit of shoota boys with 'eavy armour and feel no pain being a nice way to lock down a terrain feature.

'ard boyz costs 2CP though, and it looks hard to justify for units of 30 dudes, let alone squads of 10.

And wasn't it just 5+ save? Junk. Even for 30 boyz. Trukk jmke and bw not much better

Everyone forgets the poor mekadread...

My main concern about the Mork is mostly just if it'll be able to get line of sight anymore. Right now, it can be targeted and potentially not able to shoot back because of obscuring terrain.

If they ignore it AND it can't shoot you, that's a problem.

Hopefully it will largely be spared points increases, as it was probably a bit high in 8th as is.

Edit: Maybe good positioning will largely just circumvent this anyway. Just a shame, as it's another binary breakpoint on wounds, with 18 being by far the worst. They really should tie it to a keyword.

the absolute only time ive ever used 'Ard Boyz was when i was doing a grot mobz list and outside kustom jobs, kleverest boss, or biggest boss there wasnt really much to use my CP on given gretchin cant use stratagems and like 70% of my list was gretchin (killakanz, grot tanks, grot mega tank, grots).
I had like 10cp lying around and nothing to really use it on so i said screw it and dumped 4cp to make both squads 'ard boyz and made sure they were near one of the Grot vehicles to Loot It when it died.

That literally only worked because the absolute GIANT ball of T5 distracted my opponent, so he completely ignored the boyz first couple turns. Two full 30man 4+ save boyz with a painboy around proved to be disturbingly difficult to remove lol.

Still not worth it as that was 6cp for...boyz...and they still didnt kill that well they just took significantly more to remove. But seeing as i had no use for the cp anyway....figured i might as well lol.

If 'Ard Boyz was a 4+ or only cost 1cp, it might be worth it.

Yea 'eavy armour used to grant a 4+ save in 3rd edition so it would be nice to have that back, a minor tweak would make it useful.
It would also be nice to have auto-hitting Zzap guns back as well

 Kroem wrote:
Yea 'eavy armour used to grant a 4+ save in 3rd edition so it would be nice to have that back, a minor tweak would make it useful.
It would also be nice to have auto-hitting Zzap guns back as well

The Relic zap gun we can now take on a BW from PA should make you happy then

I think 4th ed, perhaps even 5th, we could have ardboyz with a 4+ for 10 pts (instgead of 6 for reg boyz)

Sounds good overall for our planes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/taking-flightgw-homepage-post-1/

Edit: Also, seems like strategic reserves is >9" still and ANY board edge, wholly within 6". If this is possible on turn 2 and beyond, screening your back and edges is even more important now. I'm not sure how much Orks will use this, but who knows, maybe this will be good for some outflanking units of Mega Nobs or something.

thank god they clarified Aircrafts are not falling back, they simply move despite enemies in range. So no more potential rule threading to keep it from falling back, and the new stratagem cant affect them either.

'Ard boyz has always been a 4+ except in 8th. Nobody cared before though because 4+ armor in past editions was stupid easy to remove, as a lot of high rate of fire guns had AP4 weapons. In fact i think there were more AP4 than there were AP5. Its why warriors sucked because it was simply way, way too easy to pierce their armor and splat them.
In 8th though, you need AP-3 to fully strip that armor. Unless its a specific shenanigan like a stratagem or half-range perk, i cant recall a single high rate of fire gun that has AP-3 right now. The closest is Hellblasters, but theyre not interested in boyz they want the nobz and vehicles. 4+ on 30 boyz would have been nice even at 2cp in 8th, but they reduced it to a stupid 5+ which is much less useful since a lot of weapons that are hitting them are ap-1 or -2.

Well, plus we have the KFF, why would we waste 2 CP when we can give a better version of the save much more cheaply?

If Ard boys was 1 CP, it might see some play, even at a 5+ save.

tulun wrote:
My main concern about the Mork is mostly just if it'll be able to get line of sight anymore. Right now, it can be targeted and potentially not able to shoot back because of obscuring terrain.

If they ignore it AND it can't shoot you, that's a problem.

Hopefully it will largely be spared points increases, as it was probably a bit high in 8th as is.

Edit: Maybe good positioning will largely just circumvent this anyway. Just a shame, as it's another binary breakpoint on wounds, with 18 being by far the worst. They really should tie it to a keyword.

Size stat would be even better. You could do so much with it making terrain work without arquments and simple. And it's not like gw doesn't know concept as gw has games with that.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

Dreads and kans have the same M value of a footslogging mek, naut has only 8''. You just need to be in 9'' range to give the invuln, and with the new table size even vehicles can easily be in range for a couple of turns if not more. Which is what really matters actually,

You need to be wholly within 9" though, so if much as a toe sticks out, you don't get the save.

Also, you're assuming the the opponent plays a gunline, and the ork player must rush everything as fast as possible, but he might has units that want to come forward as well. Dreads,

In my experience I need to at least go forward at full speed T1 no matter what my opponent is playing to get all those 24" weapons in range of valuable targets.

Morkanaut and wazobom are both good, but also 500 points vs 110 (assuming 2 big meks with KFF) with 8th points values.

I've experimented *a lot* with these units and it's not that simple. The 110 spend on big mek is 110 lost as soon as your vehicles move out of their bubble, as they contribute nothing to the game anymore. I had roughly a dozen games where this happened. Naut and wazbomm, on the other hand, still add a lot of value even if they wouldn't have the KFF, as both their shooting and durability is pretty impressive.

Not to mention a Wazbom is barely more expensive than a Megamek with KFF, and unlike the Megamek its actually a threat.
Ive done that a lot where i'll put it centerfield and Dajump boyz under it, or adv my wagons under it. It routinely lasts long enough for me to waste most of their shooting, with the -1 to hit and of course the kff.

gungo wrote:
Everyone forgets the poor mekadread...

IMO for a good reason though. For just 35 points extra, a naut gets so much more stuff (T8, two attack profiles on klaw, way better shooting) and Kustom jobs have only served to widened the gap.

A shooty meka-dread doesn't compare to well to a wazbomm either.

The main incentive for fielding a meka-dread is that you have one.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
Everyone forgets the poor mekadread...

IMO for a good reason though. For just 35 points extra, a naut gets so much more stuff (T8, two attack profiles on klaw, way better shooting) and Kustom jobs have only served to widened the gap.

A shooty meka-dread doesn't compare to well to a wazbomm either.

The main incentive for fielding a meka-dread is that you have one.

It’s overpriced For sure but a killkannon at bs4 is decent.
Plus it’s Fairly durable with that 4+ fnp

I had a reason for the Mekadread for awhile because its BS4 for...some reason.
But then Shiny Bitz came around as well as the special Gork gun, rendering that point completely moot lol.

The Rattler Cannon is pretty good, but now theres just no reason to run it over the nauts + a cp

I hope when the new FW books come they give us some Kustom Jobs that affect FW models, and/or add that they can use certain things. None of the walker kustom jobs except the Gork gun shouldnt be denied on the Meka

I have 2 of the meka dreads, so you can tell how I felt when the FW indices came out and they were pretty crap in comparison to our codex offerings. At the very least, the FNP should be permanent, instead of degrading each time you fail it. Furthermore, they should be an HQ choice like they used to be, that way they compete less directly with other HS choices within a detachment. I'd also argue they should give an aura buff of some sort to fellow walkers, whether it be +1 attack or some kind of FNP or repair ability.

 Grimskul wrote:
I have 2 of the meka dreads, so you can tell how I felt when the FW indices came out and they were pretty crap in comparison to our codex offerings. At the very least, the FNP should be permanent, instead of degrading each time you fail it. Furthermore, they should be an HQ choice like they used to be, that way they compete less directly with other HS choices within a detachment. I'd also argue they should give an aura buff of some sort to fellow walkers, whether it be +1 attack or some kind of FNP or repair ability.

Forgeworld for us is... pretty awful, with a couple exceptions. I think the Chinork, Zhardhark, and Garg Squig are alright.

Like, the Meka Dread should probably be closer to like 200-220 w/ KFF and its gun, especially compared to the much better Mork... it's like 276? It's insultingly bad in its current state.

It sounds like Forgeworld index might be ready pretty much when 9th drops though.

tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I have 2 of the meka dreads, so you can tell how I felt when the FW indices came out and they were pretty crap in comparison to our codex offerings. At the very least, the FNP should be permanent, instead of degrading each time you fail it. Furthermore, they should be an HQ choice like they used to be, that way they compete less directly with other HS choices within a detachment. I'd also argue they should give an aura buff of some sort to fellow walkers, whether it be +1 attack or some kind of FNP or repair ability.

Forgeworld for us is... pretty awful, with a couple exceptions. I think the Chinork, Zhardhark, and Garg Squig are alright.

Like, the Meka Dread should probably be closer to like 200-220 w/ KFF and its gun, especially compared to the much better Mork... it's like 276? It's insultingly bad in its current state.

It sounds like Forgeworld index might be ready pretty much when 9th drops though.

Yeah, the FW rules are pretty meh beyond what you mentioned and the Supa Skorcha Big Trakk. Hopefully when they revamp the new indices, there's a little more future proofing with regards to current and upcoming Ork rules.

 Khorzain wrote:
Do you think open-topped transports will allow passengers to shoot normally while the transport is in melee — or will they still be limited to Pistols-only?

Bro, that is a super interesting question. Skorchas. Dang.

 Grimskul wrote:
I have 2 of the meka dreads, so you can tell how I felt when the FW indices came out and they were pretty crap in comparison to our codex offerings. At the very least, the FNP should be permanent, instead of degrading each time you fail it. Furthermore, they should be an HQ choice like they used to be, that way they compete less directly with other HS choices within a detachment. I'd also argue they should give an aura buff of some sort to fellow walkers, whether it be +1 attack or some kind of FNP or repair ability.

I just want a points drop <-main issue
The mega charga and kff (And rokkit rack) to both be included in the price
I’d like the fnp to be permanant as well even if it’s just 5+ becuase it can be a pain to track where you are at

Then it would be fine...
I would love for the supa skorcha to return as it’s a great weapon as well but I have a feeling the rattler cannon is going away and it will just be a killkannon and claw/saw arm since that’s all they still make.

It’s a nice model though!

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO both foot meks are terrible choices for mech lists, as they are left in the dust by turn 2 and useless for the rest of the game. If you want a KFF, Morkanaut and Wazbomm are the best options.

Dreads and kans have the same M value of a footslogging mek, naut has only 8''. You just need to be in 9'' range to give the invuln, and with the new table size even vehicles can easily be in range for a couple of turns if not more. Which is what really matters actually,

You need to be wholly within 9" though, so if much as a toe sticks out, you don't get the save.

Also, you're assuming the the opponent plays a gunline, and the ork player must rush everything as fast as possible, but he might has units that want to come forward as well. Dreads,

In my experience I need to at least go forward at full speed T1 no matter what my opponent is playing to get all those 24" weapons in range of valuable targets.

Morkanaut and wazobom are both good, but also 500 points vs 110 (assuming 2 big meks with KFF) with 8th points values.

I've experimented *a lot* with these units and it's not that simple. The 110 spend on big mek is 110 lost as soon as your vehicles move out of their bubble, as they contribute nothing to the game anymore. I had roughly a dozen games where this happened. Naut and wazbomm, on the other hand, still add a lot of value even if they wouldn't have the KFF, as both their shooting and durability is pretty impressive.

I've also played all those untis, actually the big mek was a 75ppm index one since PA wasn't already out then. The mek can be left behind and if he does he actually works for 1-2 turns, but on the other hand the morkanaut is a priority target and doesn't last more than 1-2 turns anyway. Sure it's a bullet magnet, and I also like to field it a lot, but if you want KFF for more than 1-2 turn the naut isn't more reliable than a footsloggin mek and even if it survives it could be left behind as well as it's just as fast as mek actually if not even slower (8'' vs 5'' but the big mek can advance since he has no shooting). So is the wazbom, which is another priority target. I've had games in which a footslogging mek shielded dreads, mek gunz and trukks full of bustas/gitz and for that role he was more effective than a naut. Da boomer wagon could also work in conjuction with a big mek, so do kanz.

I'd like to ask for some clarification though: the KFF bubble works as long as the unit is wholly within 9'' but that shouldn't mean than the entire bases of the shielded models must be under the bubble, just a tiny fraction of each one of them. If all the models in the unit have at least a small portion of their bases (or the model itself if it doesn't have a base like most vehicles) covered by the bubble then the unit gets the 5++. It's how I've always played it, and it actually makes a lot of difference when it comes to shield models like BWs, trukks or Gorkanauts. .

 Blackie wrote:
I'd like to ask for some clarification though: the KFF bubble works as long as the unit is wholly within 9'' but that shouldn't mean than the entire bases of the shielded models must be under the bubble, just a tiny fraction of each one of them. If all the models in the unit have at least a small portion of their bases (or the model itself if it doesn't have a base like most vehicles) covered by the bubble then the unit gets the 5++. It's how I've always played it, and it actually makes a lot of difference when it comes to shield models like BWs, trukks or Gorkanauts. .

It was clarified/changed some time last year. From the rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’
then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or
hull) is within. If a rule says it affects models that are
‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the
model’s base (or hull) is within.
If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then
it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull)
in that unit is within. If a rule says it affects units that are
‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of any
model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within. If a rule says
it affects units if every model in that unit is ‘within’ then
applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull)
is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model
in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the
models in that unit are either on or partially within the
terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

Fitting a BW with deff rolla within a KFF mek's aura is pretty much impossible.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd like to ask for some clarification though: the KFF bubble works as long as the unit is wholly within 9'' but that shouldn't mean than the entire bases of the shielded models must be under the bubble, just a tiny fraction of each one of them. If all the models in the unit have at least a small portion of their bases (or the model itself if it doesn't have a base like most vehicles) covered by the bubble then the unit gets the 5++. It's how I've always played it, and it actually makes a lot of difference when it comes to shield models like BWs, trukks or Gorkanauts. .

It was clarified/changed some time last year. From the rulebook FAQ:
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’
then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or
hull) is within. If a rule says it affects models that are
‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the
model’s base (or hull) is within.
If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then
it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull)
in that unit is within. If a rule says it affects units that are
‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of any
model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within. If a rule says
it affects units if every model in that unit is ‘within’ then
applies so long as any part of every model’s base (or hull)
is within.
For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every model
in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long as all the
models in that unit are either on or partially within the
terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

Fitting a BW with deff rolla within a KFF mek's aura is pretty much impossible.

Thanks for posting it, I completely missed that since it wasn't in the orks FAQs and I'm basically the only ork player here I've always played it wrong then, although mostly not by using the footslogging mek but the Naut for covering 2-3 BWs/trukks in turn 1. I guess the footsloggin mek could be an option only for walkers then, maybe mek gunz.

Mech orks seem to be looking good eh?

With custom jobs and being able to shoot into combat, the buggies are starting to look solid. If they are spared stupid point increases, I would wager orks might get a top table mech list.

Corkscrew might be an auto take now eh? Even if you get stuck in, it’s still shooting something.

Agree, with the downside of krokscrew disappearing, I don't think there is a reason not to take it if you are running scrapjets.

The other buggy that got a massive boost is the KBB, since it's now able to use the spiked ram with impunity and can no longer be neutralized by having a unit just stay in combat with it.

In addition, the squigbuggy might have found its niche with the squig launchers gaining the blast rule (probably on the boom profile).

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, with the downside of krokscrew disappearing, I don't think there is a reason not to take it if you are running scrapjets.

The other buggy that got a massive boost is the KBB, since it's now able to use the spiked ram with impunity and can no longer be neutralized by having a unit just stay in combat with it.

In addition, the squigbuggy might have found its niche with the squig launchers gaining the blast rule (probably on the boom profile).

Yeah, I was thinking that the +1 to wound strat on the buggy was *almost* good enough, but the megatrakk just wins out because it's more consistent. Megatrakk is better in combat, but getting 12 consistent big shoota shots (some hitting on 4s), and then getting the rockets on top of it, it's just obviously better.

The squig buggy edges out on certain targets I think with consistent shots -- where blast comes in now.

I still doubt it's worth taking over the mega trakk, but it's now no longer a terrible joke. We could see a difference in points now too, where the mega trakk is more expensive than it, which should probably be the case.

Really, I think what would make the squig buggy something truly interesting is if it didn't need line of sight, which... MAKES sense. It's lobbing squigs at the enemy, why it needs LOS is beyond me.

It also has a saw though, and as long as at least one profile remains non-blast, it can keep shooting itself out of combat.

After playing some games post SotB, from my experience the buggies rank like this:
1) SJD is out of competition and hands down the best buggy with its high speed, reliable gun and stratagem to go wherever it pleases. The kustom job is a nice goody, but can easily be skipped as hitting on 3+/5+ is much more important than randomly deep striking - ES might view this differently though.

2) The lower speed on the scrapjet often keeps it out of range of things you want to shoot in turn one, and AP-2 just makes it too unreliable against 3+ saves. It's still a great buggy with lots of firepower and korkscrew is valuable whenever you do find your way into combat. I guess when running two or three scrapjets you should always get it, as chances are you will use it on at least one of them. You make sure to keep in mind that getting stuck in combat is always bad for them until next edition

3) Kustom Boosta-blasta. You get a lot of durability ans speed for your 80 points and they kill infantry in droves, while being able to lock down anything you don't want to shoot. Sadly, their kustom job blows, usually amounting to 0-2 mortal wounds across two KBB in any game I ran them (I kept count even when I didn't have them). That Da Burnin’ Highway stratagem though...
Forget about skorcha nobz in trukks, for just one CP the KBB goes from 4d3 8" S4 AP0 shots to flat 12 10" S5 AP-1 until your next turn. So after it has reduced some scoring unit to ash, no one would dare to charge them, lest they would suffer the same insane profile on overwatch.

4) Squigbuggy. To be fair, the one game I played three of them (thanks, TTS) wasn't actually a serious one, but they I did some fun silly things, like putting three squig mines on an objective. The gun is weird though, as it's pretty much bad no matter what you shoot it at and what mode you use, yet it somehow always ends up dealing some damage. Due to the low number of shots actually hitting, +1 to wound felt wasted, definitely needs a trio to make that kustom job worth taking.

5) Boomdakka Snazzwagon. Well, it really got nothing from SotB, the kustom job is a bad joke and the stratagem unneeded for a unit that is somewhere behind gretchin on your opponent's target priority. This thing should have objective secured or drop for another 20 points to be worth it.

Have you ever considered a boom boys detachment for scrap jets? Not sure if it generally fits a buggy army, but it brings those rockets to STR 9, AP-3.

The shooting rerolls aren’t as insane on a scrap jet anyway, and you can always make up the invulnerable with a KFF.

I somehow doubt an additional AP and strength would be better than two re-rolls. Especially with the wing missile hitting on 4+, deff skulls work pretty well for scrapjets.

It makes me sad that the Boomdakka Snazzwagon is still so lowly ranked, I love the way that thing looks.

That' s one of few pros of this buggy I'm afraid. But don' t worry. Sooner or later, it becames meta. That' s the core rule of W40k

i still swear to god someone typod the Snazzwagon's kustomjob.
Its actually a downgrade in overall damage. If it retained its S5 AP2 at that RoF spread across 3 models its suddenly pretty lethal, but not broken due to orky BS.
But at S4 AP1? Wtf? Why would i pay 80pts +1cp for something that weak when i could just bring a KBB for the same cost and no CP and do just as much if not more damage.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i still swear to god someone typod the Snazzwagon's kustomjob.
Its actually a downgrade in overall damage. If it retained its S5 AP2 at that RoF spread across 3 models its suddenly pretty lethal, but not broken due to orky BS.
But at S4 AP1? Wtf? Why would i pay 80pts +1cp for something that weak when i could just bring a KBB for the same cost and no CP and do just as much if not more damage.

Well also when they did the same thing with the Gork's gun right.

But these are also the people that thought the Squig buggy was worth 140 points out of the gate and had to reduce it by 40 points... which still isn't enough.

Huh? No the Gork's gun has always been 36" S6 AP1 1D. The RoF skyrocketed and the +1 to hit at half range bit was added in.
Snazzwagon's kustomjob is the only one that feels legit like a sidegrade if not straight up downgrade, even Squighyde Tires has uses.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Huh? No the Gork's gun has always been 36" S6 AP1 1D. The RoF skyrocketed and the +1 to hit at half range bit was added in.
Snazzwagon's kustomjob is the only one that feels legit like a sidegrade if not straight up downgrade, even Squighyde Tires has uses.

Sorry, what I meant was from a design perspective they had the same idea to increase the rate of fire of both units with the job.

In the gorks case, they buffed it further. In the snazz case, they made the gun worse, turning it into a side grade at best.

Ah i see what you mean.
Yeah, pretty much. Its just a RoF increase. Not even as big of an increase the Gork got (though it goes on 3 buggies is probably why).
If they fixed it to be S5/AP2 again i'd probably use it.

Also that grot save stratagem shouldnt have been a stratagem...its once per game per model...why is it a stratagem?

They started with the faction focus, the word out there is that next edition will launch last week of July (they said July, so earliest is the end of July. *Ditto Orktober)

My guess is boyz 8pts, Grots 4. Now the question is, what about burnaz, stormboyz and Nobz?

"Werner: In the absence of dedicated indirect fire units, the best way to (literally) get around line-of-sight-blocking terrain is by making use of the myriad movement abilities that Necrons have at their disposal. The Doom Scythe, in particular, can use its speed and freedom of movement to get eyes on a valuable target from across the table, then obliterate it with its death ray. What’s more, as a Blast weapon, the death ray will be effective against large enemy units as well as enemy vehicles – you’ll automatically get your maximum of three shots against units of six of more, which will be great for zapping Space Marines."

This gun is d3.

So weirdly, bigger blasts do less shots against 6-10, then go absolutely ham at 11+. This means stuff like Smasha guns probably are gonna SMOKE elite units now, as they will be getting 3 shots each 6+. But larger blast templates get hosed. Not sure why they just don't consider each die below a 3 to be a 3.

Also, Necron Warriors are now 12 points, up from 11 points, to give us more of a baseline. Boys at 8 points and Grots at 4 seems reasonable.

I'm pretty bullish on Killa Kans for lists next edition, but I think I'll be fielding them in squads of 5

Thats a concern i have been voicing on their facebook posts the moment they revealed what Blast did.

There arent very many multi-dice shot weapons, but they all feel rather gimped by comparison to the standard D6, which clearly got the biggest buff from Blast by making its minimum 3, or half shots, against 6+ models, while things like the Mork's 3D3 KMZ literally gets no benefit unless it happens to shoot an 11+ model unit, which...what the heck has 11+ models that firing a KMZ at wouldnt feel like a disgusting waste of time?

Even their livestream adds to the confusion since they said it was a per-die basis. Im hoping they changed it and forgot to update the article before sending it out, since GW isnt exactly known for proofreading very well.

Feels really weird our Deffkannon has a minimum of 3 against 6-10 models on a 3D6 gun and suddenly 18 shots guaranteed against 11+ lol.

If boyz are 8pts i probably wont be using them anymore. Theyre overpriced as it is, only bare-bone functional in 30man squads through sheer weight of dice and even then theyre meh. Especially since 9th is making it sound like its easier to do a full vehicle list imo.
I'd much rather have the ~500pts my boyz usually take be used for more buggies.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats a concern i have been voicing on their facebook posts the moment they revealed what Blast did.

There arent very many multi-dice shot weapons, but they all feel rather gimped by comparison to the standard D6, which clearly got the biggest buff from Blast by making its minimum 3, or half shots, against 6+ models, while things like the Mork's 3D3 KMZ literally gets no benefit unless it happens to shoot an 11+ model unit, which...what the heck has 11+ models that firing a KMZ at wouldnt feel like a disgusting waste of time?

Even their livestream adds to the confusion since they said it was a per-die basis. Im hoping they changed it and forgot to update the article before sending it out, since GW isnt exactly known for proofreading very well.

Feels really weird our Deffkannon has a minimum of 3 against 6-10 models on a 3D6 gun and suddenly 18 shots guaranteed against 11+ lol.

If boyz are 8pts i probably wont be using them anymore. Theyre overpriced as it is, only bare-bone functional in 30man squads through sheer weight of dice and even then theyre meh. Especially since 9th is making it sound like its easier to do a full vehicle list imo.
I'd much rather have the ~500pts my boyz usually take be used for more buggies.

Absolutely.

It seems stupid that 3 separate lobbas aginst a 6-10 unit gets a minimum of 9 shots, but a Supa Lobba only gets 3. But as soon as another grot gets too close, that supa looba goes up to 18 shots?

I don't mind more clustered units getting minimum shots -- absolutely makes sense as a game mechanic. But it should scale up linearly, and be costed with this in mind. It just means it's looking really stupid to take that 11th model, as now those large blast weapons will just SMOKE those units. A 2d6 blast weapon can really whiff and only get 3 shots at 10 -- there's zero chance that'll happen if you take an ammo runt on a full sized Nob squad now.

Also yeah i agree, Killakan mobs of 6 are dead.
Which is really annoying as they come in packs of 3. But that 6th model is gonna mark them hardcore to be targeted by those D3 heavy-hitting shots like the Deathray, Neutraon Laser, or whatever that Repulsor tank's cannon is called for primaris.
Yeah those guns would much rather go after the Gork/Mork but guaranteed 3 shots against something you completely splat and can be lethal enough to cause a problem if you ignore them is too good to pass up.

Its also gonna irritate my Grot Tanks, which are 8man squads. Need another Kommanda and 1 more random dude now for 2x5 squads.
actually i may just get a 3rd Mega Grot Tank and forget the Grot Tanks. The MGT is better anyway.

There have been several variants and interpretations on that rule so far.

I’d take the community teams written product with a small grain of salt and it’s also possible Stu or the other rules team likely misspoke. So let’s wait til the Is released and then Errata because even as written it’s clear as mud.

The funny thing is this is one of the biggest 9th edition changes I hoped the playtesters would have cleared up

There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

Yeah, thank to "Loot It!" going 9+1 is definitely more viable than 2x(5+1). Without any doubt runts will count: they take a seat in transports and they can also soak the first hit that unit is suffering so I don't see how they shouldn't count.

About blast weapons, not all the D3-D6 shots (and multiple of each) weapons will get the rule. Weapons that used to be 1+ shots in older editions won't get it, that's my guess. Only weapons that actually used the blasts/large blasts. The Smasha Gun for example won't have it, I fear.

By the info given today, wouldn't any Blast gun with a multi-D3 shot number automatically get its maximum number of shots against units with 6+ models?

Apparently it’s weapons with:
1) random shots
2) a ranged characteristic
3) doesn’t auto hit.

We’ll see if there are exceptions.

Isn't blast just a new keyword/special rule they can post on to pretty much anything they choose?

It only makes sense on ranged weapons with random shots though.

I also agree that at 8 points boyz would be dead. There is no way you can justify 240 points for a unit of boyz.

 Jidmah wrote:
It only makes sense on ranged weapons with random shots though.

I also agree that at 8 points boyz would be dead. There is no way you can justify 240 points for a unit of boyz.

Before nob weapons too.

It’s coming. I can’t see them not raising their cost. They want to reduce army size.

Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

I agree. Boyz going up to 8 or 9 points may make a lot of sense in 9th. Blast weapons seem scary for hordes but we might see other rules that make them worth while, such as terrain or actions unique to troops/boyz. I'm a bit tired of playing hordes so I'm personally hoping that trukk boyz makes a comeback.
I do think 9th will have some growing pains early on but given how much Orks improved throughout 8th I'm confident we'll find our place.

 Quackzo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

I agree. Boyz going up to 8 or 9 points may make a lot of sense in 9th. Blast weapons seem scary for hordes but we might see other rules that make them worth while, such as terrain or actions unique to troops/boyz. I'm a bit tired of playing hordes so I'm personally hoping that trukk boyz makes a comeback.
I do think 9th will have some growing pains early on but given how much Orks improved throughout 8th I'm confident we'll find our place.

Ooh yeah, I remember the uphill slog that 6th and 7th edition were. 8th has been fairly fun for orks, being able to actually compete.

I really liked 8th as it had a lot of choices and back then the basics.
I think 9th is going to be a shift and I don’t think it’s cleaning up the rules mess like I hoped.
Not necessarily bad just I think the devs are focusing on speeding up the game with a focus on vehicles and monsters. Smaller boards and a little less rolling.
But we will see

6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

Boyz have been getting progressively better and better though. Remember when the buggers were just Str 3 and you couldn't charge out of deepstrike (which scattered all over the bloody place too)

Yeah, comparatively speaking, Orks are in a much better place than in 6th/7th, which I would argue was one of our worst rulesets since we literally only had a few competitive crutches to rely on (the Lucky Stikk MAW, KMK artillery spam and stuff like the Blitz Brigade and Bully Boyz formations). I think the closest to where we are now before 9th is probably back in early 5th ed, where we had a decent mixture of mech orks, kan wall and general green tide. I think the biggest change is the general lack of durability for most factions in 8th given how killing ability when through the roof with rerolls, and so while Orks can bring the pain, we lack a lot of the resilience that we had previously since cover was nonexistent in 8th, and a a 5+ invuln just doesn't cut it anymore.

 Blackie wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

Yeah, thank to "Loot It!" going 9+1 is definitely more viable than 2x(5+1). Without any doubt runts will count: they take a seat in transports and they can also soak the first hit that unit is suffering so I don't see how they shouldn't count.

About blast weapons, not all the D3-D6 shots (and multiple of each) weapons will get the rule. Weapons that used to be 1+ shots in older editions won't get it, that's my guess. Only weapons that actually used the blasts/large blasts. The Smasha Gun for example won't have it, I fear.

Wonder if runts will be changed to what sister's cherbub's are. Both are essentially one off counters. Why one is essentially model and other is counter 100% ignored for everything while on board is weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

Well 1 pts increase would actually help ork relative to marines(14% pts vs 17% increase). The real killer won't be point cost(as you said everything is going up) but how it also comes with looooooooots of rule nerfs to boyz and rule buffs to marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

Eh assuming 8 pts per boy it's 20 to 8 which is...2.5 boy vs marine. 8th ed it was 2.42 boy per marine.

Well, per Primaris marine.

We still don't know how much Tacticals are going to be. 15'd be my guess, but, YMMV.

About points value on boyz: at 8ppm they can be even better than now IF everything else go up by 15-20% or even more. Slugga boyz were 9ppm in 3rd, only S3 and still good, in that context they weren't overpriced.

To me boyz are dead because 8th edition new profiles made p.klaw a joke and boyz have been nothing but the ablative wounds for a lone p.klaw since 5th edition. As long as klaws are dead, also boyz are dead. Sure they can have a role for tarpitting things and board control like in 8th, but we don't need them that much if that is their only purpose, especially if we aren't forced to take multiple troops squads thanks to the new FOC.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Well, per Primaris marine.

We still don't know how much Tacticals are going to be. 15'd be my guess, but, YMMV.

Tacs are 13 at the moment, I don't think they'll go up like primaris. 13, 14 at most, is my guess. Unless GW has the clear intention to squat them without cutting them from the codex and relegating them to legends.

So taking apart what we do know about 9th:
- Boyz are barely worth their points right now, their main use is tying down enemy units and dictating their movement. The changes to monsters and vehicles severely limits this ability.
- Units like eliminators will no longer be able to hide on boxes or small ruins.
- "Cut them down" is unlikely to have any impact on people falling back from boyz, nor do we have a high incentive to use it outside of edge cases
- Between obstacles and obscuring terrain, boyz will most likely take less casualties when moving across the board. However, we aren't moving them across the board right now, and deep striking will not be affected by this change.
- We need three units of troops for our free detachment, and unless there is a major change to transport it will be a competition between 30 boyz and 10 gretchin. Even at 5 points per grot, the cheap option will still be very attractive compared to blocking more than a third of your points with troops
- Armies are losing 100-200 points - due need the reduced need for troops, cuts are most likely be done there. People will not be dropping their anti-infantry units like agressors or TF cannons.

So unless there is some massive help for infantry not revealed yet, 8 point boyz might very well push them out of the competitive scope.

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

Patrol is also one that pays back but that case you run short on slots. Brigade is 3rd and last but troop tax doubles there. But GW specifically said only those 3 gets refund as those 3 are the core det's. Outrider etc aren't core ones.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

The play testers have confirmed that only the three core detachments will refund their CP cost if your warlord is part of them. All other detachments will cost CP. It's not hard to guess that the core detachments are patrol, battalion and brigade.
Due to the limited slots of patrols, I would be surprised if battalions wouldn't be the core of most armies.

I think it's clear that boys are in trouble if they go up in cost. It's hard to say if their typical "Da Jump -> charge" strategy still won't work, but they are likely too slow to be able to slog between obscuring terrain to stay out of line of sight, and frankly, they might barely be able to hide BEHIND terrain in deployment with 30 x 32 mm bases.

1) The sentiment that trukk boys will somehow comeback is... misguided. A weak ass PK and Primaris prevents this. Troops need to be cheap or effective. Boys right now have a niche role that can easily go away if they get too expensive, or if how reserves works changes too much. Plus, we're more likely stuck in mono clan, and Evil Suns is NOT the mono clan of choice.

2) Let's look at Jeff Poole's list as an example.
We know from Stu Black that his space marine list will lose approximately one squad. Let's assume this is 1 squad of intercessors (around 170 points).

If grots go up 1 point, and boys go up 1 point, jeff loses 165 points from that ALONE. This doesn't include any other points increases. I reckon this would spike his list up 50-60 points. Now, how does he do losing 230-250 points?

3) Saga of the beast shows they are pushing elite stuff. I think beyond that some of this stuff needed buffs, if Saga was built with 9th in mind, they are basically yelling at us "TAKE VEHICLES AND MEGA NOBS", among the actual good stuff from the book.

Unless boys can perform actions INSIDE trukks, Trukks somehow get cheaper, and gretchin cannot perform special mission actions, I don't really see a great future for the humble boy. Spending 240 points per slot before the Nob is simply too much for a unit that is now even easier to kill.

QUIZZ TIME for all !
-> How many boyz does it take to kill on primaris bike (lets consider the boyz are charging into said bike unit) ? The answer come with the realisation of useless boyz will really be this edition (I hope we all are wrong on this though)

Way too many. A full squad of boyz probably will barely kill a single bike.
They should not be 4W models, regular biker marines are 2W why the hell are the primaris versions twice that instead of +1?

Hey GW, make our Nob Bikers 4W then. Seriously, what the hell is this bs?

 addnid wrote:
QUIZZ TIME for all !
-> How many boyz does it take to kill on primaris bike (lets consider the boyz are charging into said bike unit) ? The answer come with the realisation of useless boyz will really be this edition (I hope we all are wrong on this though)

12 slugga boyz. Or, in other words, a mob of 30 slugga boyz will fail to kill a unit of 3 on average.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Way too many. A full squad of boyz probably will barely kill a single bike.
They should not be 4W models, regular biker marines are 2W why the hell are the primaris versions twice that instead of +1?

Hey GW, make our Nob Bikers 4W then. Seriously, what the hell is this bs?

Good god.

Now here's the fun part: will they be CHEAPER than Nob bikers?

That's horsegak. 4 wound models are so difficult to kill efficiently...

tulun wrote:
3) Saga of the beast shows they are pushing elite stuff. I think beyond that some of this stuff needed buffs, if Saga was built with 9th in mind, they are basically yelling at us "TAKE VEHICLES AND MEGA NOBS", among the actual good stuff from the book.

Looking at the war of the spider leaks, with entire plague fleets becoming obsolete with 9th, it's fairly safe to assume that PA being designed for 9th is marketing talk and nothing else.

Same goes for Engine War.
Mars got a canticle that becomes half-pointless in 9th. Units with heavy weapons ignore the movement penalty with this canticle and heavy weapons get +1str
In 9th, the heavy weapon bit is completely pointless. The only heavy weapons Admech have are on a vehicle (which will ignore it by default in 9th), has a rule to ignore it anyway, or is a useless weapon we dont even really use on our characters.

They also got like 3 ways to fall back and shoot with various units, mostly around the warlord. With the ability to shoot in combat that also becomes massively less valuable.

I agree with jidmah, its entirely marketing tossing BS out of their ass. PA's are not designed with 9th. The only evidence of this i see at all is the new Admech fliers have pure heavy weapons, but no ignore heavy rule. Thats it, 1 example showing its expecting 9th vs countless that shows they arent.

Fair. You can only hope they are building them with that in mind.

If I heard correctly on the warhammer daily, the outrider bikes also get advance and charge for free (Edit: White scars only).

Over/under on them being cheaper than nob bikers?

Also, they get an average of 6 attacks on the charge.

It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

 addnid wrote:
It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

Keep in mind, Assault cents are mostly played in Ravenguard, and not all marines play Ravenguard. Ass cents are pretty slow unless you have deep strike fuckery to back them up.

And there's really nothing stopping you from mixing the two. These do certain things better.

It's crazy, you see people on reddit really saying "meh". Can you imagine us getting a unit like this and not instantly having a new competitive build?

tulun wrote:

 addnid wrote:
It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

Keep in mind, Assault cents are mostly played in Ravenguard, and not all marines play Ravenguard. Ass cents are pretty slow unless you have deep strike fuckery to back them up.

And there's really nothing stopping you from mixing the two. These do certain things better.

It's crazy, you see people on reddit really saying "meh". Can you imagine us getting a unit like this and not instantly having a new competitive build?

That was my general experience when I finally bit the bullet and started an Imperial army after 5 xenos armies. I had actual culture shock looking through my book and lost count of the number of times I had to stop and think, "I get all this for how many points?!"

There are so many things that are just flat out missing in non-Imperial armies that seem to go taken for granted by people who have never fielded a xenos army.

Local white scars player who only has white scars basically scoffed at the bikers.
I laughed in his face. Even without knowing the cost we already know these are vastly superior bikers to ours, 4W is an annoying threshold when its on more than 1-2 models, theyre fast, durable, and hit hard (we know they have 4 attacks minimum from shock assault and obligatory +1 from CCW).
He's basically upset they have no weapon options. Again, i laughed and said "yeah that must be horrible getting a new unit that has minimal to no options available" - this is coming from the army that gets +1AP and +1Dmg in the Combat Doctrine btw, and said player doesnt see why the rest of us view that as the most broken ability ever giving the entire army 2D combat knives at AP1 suddenly

The only non-xenos army ive ever had is Admech, and even a good deal of Admech stuff gets the stiff-arm for options. Its not as bad as most xenos, but its still there. The new units they got completely forbidding me from opting out of the melee + pistol combo on the alpha being a prime example (man thats annoying)

Marines have so much crap that they just ignore because their codex is so huge its either redundant, a tactic that player doesnt like, or both. Lot of xenos players use units theyre not really that fond of because their army does NOT WORK without said unit very well (i hate the SSAG, its kinda cheesy, but god orks are bad w/o it right now against a competent opponent)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Marines have so much crap that they just ignore because their codex is so huge its either redundant, a tactic that player doesnt like, or both. Lot of xenos players use units theyre not really that fond of because their army does NOT WORK without said unit very well (i hate the SSAG, its kinda cheesy, but god orks are bad w/o it right now against a competent opponent)

Part of the problem is that because something like Primaris is CASUALLY so powerful, it sort of pigeon holes you into using stuff like the SSAG. It's hard to break out of it, because it exposes our lack of depth in our codex.

Like without the SSAG, I have no truly reliable way of killing monsters (as most of our anti heavy stuff is tagged for vehicles) , especially at that point / CP cost.

I'm actually fine with it, it's just insulting when say... a warbiker costs the same as a regular SM bike. You'd have a really hard time justifying that to me.

If they want SM stuff to be powerful, and Ork stuff to be weaker (for example), my stuff better damn well cost less points.

Precisely.

My problem is the bulk of who i face are xenos/chaos, theyre the ones that the SSAG just takes a massive dump on its not even funny. Marines of any flavor tend to just ignore everything i throw at them except the SSAG.
Never forget the time someone brought that Astraeus tank or whatever the primaris floaty superheavy is and my SSAG literally 1shot it lol.... did 36 damage to it in one attack (not two via strat, one attack) - that felt glorious.

I remember when i started playing i commonly had 2-3x the models my marine opponents did, and i wasnt spamming grots. Now i only have like ~40 more models, and theyre all grots. Bit of a problem there when the grots are useless outside being in the way and the non-grots are super easy to kill compared to the marines.

/rantoff

So, Thrakka has a D4 damage klaw, huh?

For the one who asked earlier?

4 wounds = 4 failed saves. A 3+ save makes two thirds, so, 12 wounds to cause 4.

T 5 v S 4 means wounding on a 5+ … to generate 12 wounds, you need 36 hits.

Hitting on a 3+, you need 54 attacks to score 36 hits.

At 3 attacks each, that's 18 Boys to drop one biker.

Boys are probably going to be 8 pts each, so that'd be 144 pts.

Bikes are probably 40 pts, maybe as high as 50.

That... seems like a rather stacked deck.

Wakshaani wrote:
For the one who asked earlier?

4 wounds = 4 failed saves. A 3+ save makes two thirds, so, 12 wounds to cause 4.

T 5 v S 4 means wounding on a 5+ … to generate 12 wounds, you need 36 hits.

Hitting on a 3+, you need 54 attacks to score 36 hits.

At 3 attacks each, that's 18 Boys to drop one biker.

Boys are probably going to be 8 pts each, so that'd be 144 pts.

Bikes are probably 40 pts, maybe as high as 50.

That... seems like a rather stacked deck.

Watch out, our trukk boys are so tough they'll fail to kill one 45 point bike!

which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

 Vineheart01 wrote:
which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

Grots will be good screens and good for these special actions and stuff, though. I think you could probably build a list without them, but even 4 ppm grots will probably have a place in a world with an average higher point cost across the board.

Like three 10 man grot squads in your bat I highly doubt will be a bad choice. They are speed bumps that protect your better stuff.

ive never had grots actually get in the way, they just die in massive droves that whatever the 3 layers of grots was protecting gets charged anyway. At the very best (for me) they took an extra unit shooting at them than expected, but thats entirely on my opponent's luck not mine.
Only real use i ever get out of them is DS denying and holding oddly positioned objectives that i dont want my gun-toting stuff sitting on for LoS reasons.

That´s the only use I get out of my grots too but too be honest I don´t expect more from a 3 point unit. For a measly 90 points I get 3 units to hold objectives all game and zone out DS. The board I tend to play on has lots of places to hide them out of LOS too so they hardly ever get removed.

They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

 Jidmah wrote:
They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

With DS we can get around fielding nomore than 3 minimal troops I think, will depend on how much meganobz cost, or indeed meks and such obsec infantry. Or perhaps 4 troops because one bataillon and one patrol. We will still need HQs won’t we?

 Jidmah wrote:
They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

It's more likely to be 4 ppm. I can't see how you can justify nearly doubling the cost of a str 2, t2, 1 wound model with a joke of a gun.

It'll be hard to not take some troops, I can't see not fielding 3+ HQs. Outrider (and similar) only give 2 slots, I believe.

If GW adds more than 1 point to them I'm just going to ditch my Orks entirely for my DG. Even at 3 points they are absolutely useless at anything other than capping objectives and zoning. Paying 5 points for that is way too much, especially with special snowflake marines at only 20 points a piece.

well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:
If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Guard should be at least 6 points-that's the new cost of Cultists, who they're better than.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

Someone, SOMEwhere once said that a Command Point was worth around 20-30 pts. If 3 units of Grots is 150 pts in 9th, and a troopless Detachment costs 3 CP, the math seems to be in favor of saying "So long ya gits!" and focusing just on the 'good stuff'.

Which'd be a real shame, but way worse if we just never see Boys on the table again, which, at this stage, looks to be the way to go unless something *massive* changes. Terrain won't save them, blasts just *erase* them, and a cost increase just leaves them unplayable no matter how thematic it is.

And that's heartbreaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Guard should be at least 6 points-that's the new cost of Cultists, who they're better than.

That wouldn't be very fair to the Cultists, who are nowhere near as good as Guardsmen. My gut's telling me that the IG go to 8 pts, as do Boys.

But, we'll see.

SemperMortis wrote:

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Actually they went from 17 to 20 so 8pts boyz ratio would actually improve slightly but not enough in 8th ed and even less in 9th. But gw and playtesters have agenda of killing hordes and aren"t subtle about it

RedNoak wrote:
well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

Well, let's see. 2 wound sneeded, but they save on a 3+. so you have to inflict 6.

To inflict 6 with SHOOTING, where you wound on a 5+, you need 9 hits. To score 9 hits In SHOOTING on a 4+, so you need 18 Grot blasters to drop a Primaris.

To inflict 6 with MELEE, where you wound on a 6, you need 36 hits. To score 36 hits on a 5+, you need 108 Grots.

Doesn't come up often, but … yikes.

Wakshaani wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

Well, let's see. 2 wound sneeded, but they save on a 3+. so you have to inflict 6.

To inflict 6 with SHOOTING, where you wound on a 5+, you need 9 hits. To score 9 hits In SHOOTING on a 4+, so you need 18 Grot blasters to drop a Primaris.

To inflict 6 with MELEE, where you wound on a 6, you need 36 hits. To score 36 hits on a 5+, you need 108 Grots.

Doesn't come up often, but … yikes.

Worse than that. 9 hits wounding on 5+ is 3 wounds. So you need 36 grot blasters to drop a primaris.

Yep I also think guards will go up in huge way, but mainly for one reason: depending on how a guard unit is equipped, it takes a long time to play it (different weapons). Also orders, for example making the unit move again, are also time consuming. GW wants to speed games up, so they will deter astra militarum players from fielding many squads, and push them towards tanks. I may be totally wrong, we'll see. I have a guard army (as a "side army"), glad i didn't invest in many infantry squads...

I'd say 7 points though, 8 sounds like a lot (double the current cost)

Does anybody play and have some new experiences with SotB? Or are everybody stucked on discussing partial parametrs of the non ork units suplemented with pure guesses /tips / wishes in mostly unknown system that will be revealed no earlier than about 4-5 weeks?

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Actually they went from 17 to 20 so 8pts boyz ratio would actually improve slightly but not enough in 8th ed and even less in 9th. But gw and playtesters have agenda of killing hordes and aren"t subtle about it

None of that changes the fact that 8 point boyz are likely to be worthless to orks though. I'm fairly sure I'll try to fit my entire buggy list into a single outrider detachment if they do that.

Same.
I have a feeling though the fact that they are "better" in melee than marines will continue to be a factor making them cost so much.
A boy has the same attack profile as a primaris marine, 2 attacks at S4 with +1 from choppa +1 from 20+ boyz, while the primaris has 2 + 1 from Shock Assault (which i still say is BS doesnt get denied if they GET charged) and they both hit on 3s.
The ork will have more hits/wounds than the primaris! Nevermind the rerolls backing it up or the armor keeping it alive nah thats not important.

Would boyz find a use if they did go up, but they changed the heavy weapons to be 3 to a squad instead of 3 per 10?
I find i do that alot with Admech where i'd rather field 2x5 than 10 because i get 2 special weapons per unit, or 3 at a 10man.

And now to something completely different.

For those of you who still use legends, I'm currently looking at the big mek on warbike with da cleverest boss, killsaw and brutal but kunning to create a second Killa Klaw boss who doubles as KFF protection turn one. Has anyone had any experience with this?

Well today topic is overwatch. Pretty much last chance for boyz to get any good news

Overwatch is a stratagem.

watch them slap the Blast rules on overwatch, making it hit reliably on larger units

tulun wrote:
Overwatch is a stratagem.

Or unit specific rule. Day1 errata will add those around. Tau likely has plenty

tneva82 wrote:

tulun wrote:
Overwatch is a stratagem.

Or unit specific rule. Day1 errata will add those around. Tau likely has plenty

I mean, that's fine. That army lives on drones and keeping gak out of combat.

But this is unequivocally good. We sucked at overwatch, and now we aren't eating a stream of Overwatches if you fail a charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, with the defensible building keyword, stuff like Flash Gits are now GOOD at overwatch.

Toss em in a building, so they get a 3+ or 2+ save if they've looted a vehicle, have them hole up, and now they overwatch on a 5+, possibly re-rolling 1s from Baddruk.

These changes are very, very nice.

Dunno, they actually specifically mention Tau getting multiple overwatches out of 1cp due to the Greater Good ability so possible nothing outside of that mentioned Crusade rule grants free overwatch.

I'm not sure i like this. On one hand its nice that now when we multi-charge only one can attempt overwatch at all, but it also basically completely shuts off overwatch for a lot of lists because its not that gun heavy, and unless its a stupid high RoF or excessive rules to make it more reliable....overwatch simply isnt reliable enough to spend one of our now-known to be thin CP pool.
Fortunately its before the unit charges so they cant cherry pick the overwatch against a unit that successfully charged to mitigate it a bit.

its funny. They advertised "More cp! Everyone gets more cp now!" in 9th and its actually sounding like its way, way worse. Start with 12cp, most armies will burn half of that in army alterations because so many rules that SHOULD BE BOUGHT are CP based instead, and now even more basic functions are CP costs?

As unbelievable as it sounds, it almost sounds like 40k is going back to melee is better than shooting. Almost, still no comment on transports yet.

Honestly I'm all for this. Good for how I play and I love how it interacts with terrain.
Why I like it: overwatch is one of those things people do because they might do a wound or two but most often doesn't do anything meaningful. So it can be a waste of time. Some factions and some units really have terrific overwatch and its meaningful when they use it but now they will have to make a choice.
I also think the "Hold Steady" and "Set to Defend" rules are interesting and have some push and pull. EG Set up one unit for a really good Overwatch and then set up the other units for the counter punch.
The fact that vehicles/monsters can shoot INTO melee seems to be a counterbalance to overwatch being a stratagem.
I think on the whole this is a good thing for orks. We have the ability to saturate with targets and can force our opponent into decisions they don't want to make.

EDIT: I think the only overwatch rule I was hoping for is to be able to do it from inside an open topped transport but I'm not going to lose sleep over that.

Gorkanauts, dredds, characters, meganobz and buggies are happiest about this

 Vineheart01 wrote:


As unbelievable as it sounds, it almost sounds like 40k is going back to melee is better than shooting. Almost, still no comment on transports yet.

Even if transports will allow us to charge out of them in 9th I don't think melee will be better than shooting. An extra turn of damage output and being able to react to changing threats more easily than CC is just hard to overcome.

oh yeah without a doubt this is a massive boost for orks, the article even mentioned why:
"you can only fire overwatch at one of those several units charging you"

This is great because now Grots can eat overwatch just as good as our vehicles, because nobody is gonna want to fire overwatch at grots now that it costs a cp. If they make the charge, cant even attempt overwatch on the next unit going in.

(this of course is rendered moot if they change how charged are declared back to declaring each charge, then doing overwatch, then charging)

It also severely punishes pure gunline armies, which have been a problem since 6th dropped imo.

I just dont like that it costs cp. Theyve done 0CP strats before, it costing 1cp and cp being so precious i could see a LOT of people (especially orks) not even attempt overwatch once.

Considering how much our overwatch sucked, I'll take the tradeoff.

Also: I will happily use this stratagem on Flash Gits that are holed up in defensible terrain. That 5+ overwatch is looking hot on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: indirect buff to Ghaz? Overwatch was one of the places his rule hurt him a bit.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
oh yeah without a doubt this is a massive boost for orks, the article even mentioned why:
"you can only fire overwatch at one of those several units charging you"

This is great because now Grots can eat overwatch just as good as our vehicles, because nobody is gonna want to fire overwatch at grots now that it costs a cp. If they make the charge, cant even attempt overwatch on the next unit going in.
.

It mostly saves few grots then. You charge grots, they make it, same as before. They didn't make it, next unit charges and now they might use stratagem.

*dances on the smoldering ashes of overwatch*

And don't come back!

Don't jump in joy just yet. We don't know which units will get the ability on day1 errata.

Unless it's literally all of them it's still a win. Overwatch was too good but also a giant time waster in many cases, this should alleviate or at least mitigate both those issues.

Now if they add a rule where you can't reroll anything in overwatch I'd be so happy, that's the biggest timewaster of all

Overwatch was non issue except vs certain units and those use this stratagem and still shoot anyway.

For boyz overwatch is pretty much wash. Today however we got another tidbit that might give boyz SOME role. And specifically to counter charge anything that comes to your DZ to hunt your mek guns, SSAG etc. They are in your DZ or close to it, you appear 6" from your table edge there within easy charge range(no minimum...you can even appear INTO melee...).

Doubtful it's going to be enough but at least boyz have some sort of role. Though any other melee unit like meganobz and walkers could do that likely as well.

Yeah, there seems to be things good for melee in 9th. I'm still not seeing the argument for a big blob of boyz though. Nobz, MANZ, deffdreads just seem like a better choice than going to 11+ models and being absolutely obliterated by a random wyvern..

I'm just glad it being a once per phase thing for most armies makes the game go faster. Outside of Tau, I feel bad for the armies that have subfaction traits where they overwatch on 5's to hit, now that it's not only costing them a CP to use, but only for one unit? Talk about a naff change for them. Great for us, but still funny to see how edition changes can swing the pendulum so greatly.

Its possible they may eratta all of those abilities to be free overwatch instead.
Which, unlike their current rules, could potentially be a big deal especially with the terrain perks.

The only person i ever see use the 5+ on overwatch rules is the one non-farsight Tau player i know.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm just glad it being a once per phase thing for most armies makes the game go faster. Outside of Tau, I feel bad for the armies that have subfaction traits where they overwatch on 5's to hit, now that it's not only costing them a CP to use, but only for one unit? Talk about a naff change for them. Great for us, but still funny to see how edition changes can swing the pendulum so greatly.

Myself would prefer them to change things so that game would scale up better. Not worse. They are touting "40k in every point level" yet making rules so that it works worse and worse except on one specific point level. Good job GW!