"Patch Up" = 1CP Stompa, Gorkanaut or Morkanaut has double wounds for the wound table.
"Unstoppable Momentum" = 2CP if a unit has charged, dealt MW and is no longer within 1" of an enemy unit, it can immediately charge again.
"Wildfire" = 1CP Burna Bomber gets to drop it's burna bombs on another unit within 6" of the first. Only goes off on a 5+, not affected by "Arsonists Subkultur".
"Dreaded Death Machine" = 1CP, each time Deffdread kills a model in a unit in the fight phase, it can immediately make an additional attack against the same unit using the same weapon. Lasts until the end of the phase only.
"Hit 'em Harder" = 1CP, +1Damage on Meganobz Melee weapons until end of phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Specialist Mobs" REPLACE Clan rules. Lame.
Huntas - Sneaky Devils
Infantry models only (excluding GRETCHIN). Whilst a model in a unit with this Subkultur is on or within a terrain feature, it gainsa 5+ invulnerable save. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in a unit with this Subkultur, while that model or any model in the target unit is on or within a terrain feature,improve the weapon's AP by 1 for that attack.
Boomboyz - Blow It Up!
Improve the Strenght and AP characteristic of rokkit and stikkbomb weapons as well tankbusta bombs, wing missiles, kannons, killkannons, deffkannons, da boomber and lobbas equipped on models in a unit with this Subkultur by 1.
Flyboyz - Crucial Velocity
FLY models only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this Subkultur by a model that is more than 1" away, that unit is treated as having the benefit of the cover to its saving throw. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon against a unit with this Subkultur in a turn in which it was more than 1" away from any enemy unit at the start of the preceding Charge phase, subract 1 from hit rolls.
Grot Mobs - Cheeky Zoggers
Already previewed
Tin 'Eads - Krush'n'Krump!
KILLA KANS, DEFFDREADS, MEGA ARMOUR, MORKANAUTS, GORKANAUTS and STOMPAS only. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in an unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the hit roll.
Feral Orks - Wildboyz
WARBOSS, WEIRDBOY, NOBZ and BOYZ only (excluding BIKER and MEGA ARMOUR). Models in a unit with this Subkultur can pile in up to 6". When making an Advance roll for a unit with this Subkultur, roll two additional dice and discard two of the results.
Madboyz - Frantic
INFANTRY and BIKER units only (excluding GRETCHIN). At the start of each battle round, roll one D3 and consult the table below to establish what effect applies to all units with this Subkultur until the end of the battle round.
1 Moroniks: When resolving an attack that targets a unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
2 Nuttaz: Unit with this Subkultur automatically pass Morale tests.
3 Frenziers: Add 1 to the Strenght characteristic3 of models in a unit with this Subkultur.
Just went through it all. I can imagine a Tinheadz supreme command with a bunch of kustom jobs finding its way in. A gorkanaut with +1 to hit in melee and a Heavy 24 s8 ap-1 d1 gun?
Killa kans with +3" movement and +1 to hit in melee?! There's a lot of stuff I'm excited about and there looks to be a lot of combo potential. I'll also have an excuse to run kan, and still learn the hardway how bad they are.
The stratagem to buff flash gitz shooting by +12" has me excited too, I think it'll be used T1 and then by T2 onwards there typically is something for them to shoot at.
Kustom Jobs (1 free with a Mekboy Workshop, 1 CP for each additional Kustom Jobs and all Kustom Jobs taken must be different and if a unit that is taken in a unit is then considered as "singles" after deployment they still retake the Kustom Job given before the start of the game).
Squig-Hife Tyres
SPEED FREAKS (no units with FLY or named characters), BATTLEWAGON, GUNWAGON, BONEBREAKER or TRUKK. Add +2" to the unit's Move characteristic.
Souped-Up Speshul
BOOMDAKKA SNAZZWAGON unit only. replaces the unit's mek speshul with a 30" Assault 15 S4 AP-1 D1
Gyroscopic Whirligig
SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTA unit only. You can use this unit's Shokk Tunnel ability when Advancing, even if you did not roll a 4+. In additional that unit does not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of the Shokk Tunnel ability.
Sizzly Rivets
KUSTOM BOOSTA BLASTA unit only. When resolving an attack made with a Rivet Kannon by a model in this unit. an umodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.
Korkscrew
MEGATRAKK SCRAPJET unit only. The first time this unit finishes a consolidation move in each Fight Phase, it can immediately fight again.
Nitro-Powered Squigs
RUKKATRUKK SQUIGBUGGY unit only. When resolving an attack made by this unit's squig launcha or heavy squig launcha, add 1 to the wound roll.
Gork's Roar
DEFKILLA WARTRIKE model only. Add 4" to the Range characteristic of this model's killa jet and change the Type characteristic of this burna profile to Assault 6.
Da Boomer
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with killkannon. Da Boomer replaces a killkannon and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 3D6 S8 AP-2 D2
Zagzap
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with zzap gun only. Zagzap replaces zzap gun and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 1 S2D6 AP-3 D3
Forktress
BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model only. The model has a Save characteristic of 3+ and a invulnerable save of 5+.
Pincha
Model with grabbin' klaw only. Pincha replaces the model's grabbin' klaw and has the following profile:
Melee S+1 AP-3 D6 "Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, add 3 to the hit roll if the targets is a VEHICLE or MONSTER.
Red Rolla
BONEBREAKA model only. Replace the model's BONEBREAKA Ram ability with the following: When this model makes a charge move, add 6 to its attacks characteristic until the end of the turn.
Orkymatic Pistons
Already previewed
Sparkly Bitz
KILLA KANS, DEFF DREADS, MORKANAUT or GORKANAUT unit only. Improve the unit's BS by 1.
Dirty Gubbinz
KILLA KANS or DEFF DREADS unit only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll.
Slug Gubbin
GORKANAUT model only. Slug Gubbin replaces the model's deffstorm mega shoota and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 24 S6 AP-1 D1 "When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if the target was within 12" when this weapon was chosen to shoot with, add 1 to the hit roll.
Gog Klaw
GORKANAUT or MORKANAUT model only. When rolling to determine the Damage characteristic of the crush profile of the bearer's klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork), rolls less than 4 count as 4.
Blitza-Gatler
STOMPA only. This model mega gatling has a Damage characteristic of 2. In addition, when resolving the weapon's Psycho Dakka Blasta rule you can reroll the D6 once per phase.
Evil Sunz psychic power - Visions in the Smoke looks TASTY. Re-roll hit rolls until next psychic phase for ES Vehicle (casting of 9+ required for 18+ W models).
Clan Psychic Powers
Goffs - Bull Charge WC6
Select one friendly GOFF unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the end of the turn, charge distances of less than 7" rolled for that unit after modifiers count at 7".
Deathskulls - Maniacal Seizure WC7
Pick an enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and when resolving an attack made by a friendly DEATHSKULLS model against that unit, improve the AP of weapons by 1 for that attack.
Bad Moons - Gleamin' Gear WC6
Select one friendly BAD MOONS unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
Snakebites - Constriction WC6
Select one enemy unit within 12" of this psyker. Until the end of your next Psychic phase, halve the Attacks characteristics of models in that unit.
Evil Sunz - Visions in the smoke WC6
Select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of this psychic test was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can reroll the hit roll.
Blood Axes - Clever Talk WC6
Select one enemy unit visible to this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch at BLOOD AXE units from your army and cannot be chosen to fight until all eligible BLOOD AXE units from your army have done so.
Freebooterz - Jolly Ork's Glare WC6
Select one enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, halve the Move characteristic of models in the enemy's unit and subtract 1 from Advance and Charge rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In summary:
Makari and Ghaz suck
Stratagems are mostly bad expect very few gems
Subkulturs are unplayable
Kustom Jobs are VERY VERY GOOD, you can take as many as you wish for 1 CP each but they all have to be different and not on the same unit.
Psychic Powers are strong too (another reason not to look at Subkulturs)
I need to digest this but I am not sure most of these subcultures are worth it.
The flyer one is worse then deathskull
The dread one I almost want to combine with dreadwaaagh vigilus specialist since most people are taking it anyway but it kills your SSAG.
The only subkultur I think will be competitive (ironically since GW thought it won’t be) is the grot one for a min unit of basic SGG, (maybe wierdboy), 3 min units of Gretchin, and a bunch of Mek guns. (Again killa kans are still best here especially if you upgrade thier shooting w a kustom job)
A couple of decent strats if situational especially the new warboss on bike strat which is great.
The evil suns psychic power is amazing... it works in Mek guns.
The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
KurtAngle2 wrote: In Summary:
Makari and Ghaz suck
Stratagems are mostly bad expect very few gems
Subkulturs are unplayable
Kustom Jobs are VERY VERY GOOD, you can take as many as you wish for 1 CP each but they all have to be different and not on the same unit.
Psychic Powers are strong too (another reason not to look at Subkulturs)
Agreed. I have already fed back my opinion on Ghaz (that at 285 points with his current ruleset he is unplayable in anything but fun games and that is a shame because the model is gorgeous).
gungo wrote: I need to digest this but I am not sure most of these subcultures are worth it.
The flyer one is worse then deathskull
The dread one I almost want to combine with dreadwaaagh vigilus specialist since most people are taking it anyway but it kills your SSAG.
The only subkultur I think will be competitive (ironically since GW thought it won’t be) is the grot one for a min unit of basic SGG, (maybe wierdboy), 3 min units of Gretchin, and a bunch of Mek guns.
A couple of decent strats if situational especially the new warboss on bike strat which is great.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Clan Psychic Powers
Goffs - Bull Charge WC6
Select one friendly GOFF unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the end of the turn, charge distances of less than 7" rolled for that unit after modifiers count at 7".
Deathskulls - Maniacal Seizure WC7
Pick an enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and when resolving an attack made by a friendly DEATHSKULLS model against that unit, improve the AP of weapons by 1 for that attack.
Bad Moons - Gleamin' Gear WC6
Select one friendly BAD MOONS unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
Snakebites - Constriction WC6
Select one enemy unit within 12" of this psyker. Until the end of your next Psychic phase, halve the Attacks characteristics of models in that unit.
Evil Sunz - Visions in the smoke WC6
Select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of this psychic test was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can reroll the hit roll.
Blood Axes - Clever Talk WC6
Select one enemy unit visible to this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch at BLOOD AXE units from your army and cannot be chosen to fight until all eligible BLOOD AXE units from your army have done so.
Freebooterz - Jolly Ork's Glare WC6
Select one enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, halve the Move characteristic of models in the enemy's unit and subtract 1 from Advance and Charge rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In summary:
Makari and Ghaz suck
Stratagems are mostly bad expect very few gems
Subkulturs are unplayable
Kustom Jobs are VERY VERY GOOD, you can take as many as you wish for 1 CP each but they all have to be different and not on the same unit.
Psychic Powers are strong too (another reason not to look at Subkulturs)
I agree about Ghaz, dunno about makhari. Cheapest HQ in the codex.
Stratagems are similar to Nids and open up a LOT of different lists and tools, which is exactly what we needed.
Subkulturs are almost all trash, some theorycraft is needed before deciding.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm pretty positive about it and I´m happy where this is going with stats in general. I have yet to play a match with nids this year but I prefer that Strats are used as a toolbox to adjust your army to your current adversary, instead of kill, rinse, repeat ad infinitum.
gungo wrote: I need to digest this but I am not sure most of these subcultures are worth it.
The flyer one is worse then deathskull
The dread one I almost want to combine with dreadwaaagh vigilus specialist since most people are taking it anyway but it kills your SSAG.
The only subkultur I think will be competitive (ironically since GW thought it won’t be) is the grot one for a min unit of basic SGG, (maybe wierdboy), 3 min units of Gretchin, and a bunch of Mek guns.
A couple of decent strats if situational especially the new warboss on bike strat which is great.
I quite like the Boomboys one and the Huntas.
it’s just situational... hunta is worse then deathskulls and limited to terrain only. Boomboys provides almost nothing to a majority of your detachment and encourages you to go heavy on expensive rokkits
1 thing that I am quite impressed about is the Burna Bommer. Use Wildfire to burn some more units with 6" then flying headbutt, you can cause a gak load of mortal wounds. Yeah the wildfire is capped on a 5+ but that's still pretty good
gungo wrote: I need to digest this but I am not sure most of these subcultures are worth it.
The flyer one is worse then deathskull
The dread one I almost want to combine with dreadwaaagh vigilus specialist since most people are taking it anyway but it kills your SSAG.
The only subkultur I think will be competitive (ironically since GW thought it won’t be) is the grot one for a min unit of basic SGG, (maybe wierdboy), 3 min units of Gretchin, and a bunch of Mek guns.
A couple of decent strats if situational especially the new warboss on bike strat which is great.
I quite like the Boomboys one and the Huntas.
it’s just situational... hunta is worse then deathskulls and limited to terrain only. Boomboys provides almost nothing to a majority of your detachment and encourages you to go heavy on expensive rokkits
Yeah but if your taking kommandos it's a match made in heaven
All these subkulturs are more themed for like outsiders, spearhead, etc. Where you are only really taking the units it's designed for.
Fast theorycrafting
2 planes, gorkanaut kombo:
fly them, double bomb, explode one. now you have a hole in the castle.
Ds the gorkanaut, ramming speed, kill something, charge again rest of the castle in the back.
deffrekka wrote: The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
deffrekka wrote: The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
deffrekka wrote: The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
It’s amazing it works on mek gubz
Shame itll only affect a single mek gun though
Dangit your right guess my Mek guns stay in a Gretchin detachment
deffrekka wrote: The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
It’s amazing it works on mek gubz
Shame itll only affect a single mek gun though
Dangit your right guess my Mek guns stay in a Gretchin detachment
The Evil Sunz psychic power is best on a Gorkanaut with the relic gun, a Stompa with relic gatla (but still not worth it) or a Ggunwagon with relic kilkannon or a unit of Kans with the +1BS all with like rokkits or kmbs. But I dunno if a unit of Kans compares to a unit of Tankbustas
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Snazzwagon has a weird kustomjob.... why couldnt it be like the Gorkanaut one and just have +6 shots, not dropping a str and ap aswell as that is like a side grade.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think one of the clear winners from this book is the Gorkanaut. Give it the kustom deffstorm, slap it in the teleporta and have it as a Dread Waaagh! unit. Deepstrike it down and blast away, then use kustom ammo to fire again. After that then pop ramming speed and charge in. Firing 48 BS 4 shots within 12" at str 6 ap 1 is as close to assault cannon spam we can get to. Either make it Evil Sunz and Da Jump a Warp 'ead close to it and try give it reroll to hit with Visions or have it as Badmoons to reroll 1s. Or alternatively have it with the Gog Klaw and run it as a Tin Head, again smack it in the teleporta and ramming speed it to gib some stuff.
A novelty choice could also be a Bad Moons Gunwagon with the kustom kilkannon firing twice for 4d6 shots when using the periscope with again reroll 1s to hit. I dunno if thats crazy good as its still BS 5.....
A Bonebreaka with the Red Rolla could be good getting 12 attacks on the charge, again using the teleporta and ramming speed.
Burna-boomers can be quite tasty. take them as Arsonists, fly over a unit and drop a bomb for 3+ MWs, then pop Wild fire for another unit to suffer MWs on a 5+ then finally Flyin Headbutt it for more MWs.
Another funny thing you could do is make a crazy resilient Meganob unit. Take them as Badmoons, use the psychic power to give them +1 save, stick them in cover for a further +1 save and then hopefully loot a dead Mek Gun or other vehicle nearby for a further +1 save so they are sitting on a -1 save (1s still fail), so even against like ap4 weapons they will have a 3+ save vs ranged weapons. Alright for holding an objective but very situational and can be shut dont with armys that ignore cover. Just a thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Did we get the strat for multiple warlord traits?
deffrekka wrote: The Deathskulls psychic power is one of the better ones! Smack that on a unit and get another point of AP whilst if they survive the barrage they are minus 1 to hit. Evil Sunz one is good on a Morka.
It’s amazing it works on mek gubz
Shame itll only affect a single mek gun though
Dangit your right guess my Mek guns stay in a Gretchin detachment
Probably not competitive but I definitely want to build a gunwagon with that relic zzap gun. "Auto-hitting zzap gun" was one of my dream Kustom Jobs that I didn't actually expect them to do, much less upgrade the MW trigger on it.
Madjob wrote: Probably not competitive but I definitely want to build a gunwagon with that relic zzap gun. "Auto-hitting zzap gun" was one of my dream Kustom Jobs that I didn't actually expect them to do, much less upgrade the MW trigger on it.
And youll get to fire it twice with a Gunwagon? If it still technically counts as a Zzap Gun. As it replaces it so I dont think it will be able to fire twice?
This video shows all pages in a readable manner, and the guy reviewing it actually has played orks before, so it's not as much as a pain to listen to him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn15Xb8XUc4
Madjob wrote: Probably not competitive but I definitely want to build a gunwagon with that relic zzap gun. "Auto-hitting zzap gun" was one of my dream Kustom Jobs that I didn't actually expect them to do, much less upgrade the MW trigger on it.
And youll get to fire it twice with a Gunwagon? If it still technically counts as a Zzap Gun. As it replaces it so I dont think it will be able to fire twice?
Same question applies to the Kustom Killkannon, for the time being I am assuming GW simply made another one of their usual oversights, which isn't an unfair assessment given the aforementioned Killkannon is significantly worse if it can't fire twice on a Gunwagon because the only thing setting it apart from a regular one is that it fires twice as many shots! Ah, and +12" of range.
11:00 "Your army can have one additional kustom job"
He is saying you can have as many as you like
I don't think any subkultur other than Cheeky Zoggers will ever get used. Even Wildboyz is strictly inferior in terms of mobility compared to Evil Sunz, even with the excessive restriction to footslogging green tide units. 3 dice gives you a statistical average of 5 or a 6, compared to a 4.5" advance for all units for Evil Sunz, not including the +1" to move or the +1" to charge.
gungo wrote: While the big Mek w kff is ork klan only it now works in melee!
Wow that is actually really sweet! I wonder if that's a typo or not.
I suspect if they deliberately changed kff to klan only the removal of shooting only was intended as well.
To be fair this is a good change as it makes the big Mek in mega armor interesting
It makes the meka dread interesting (although I wish the relic killkannon worked on him)
It makes the morkanaut interesting
Imagine a MegaMek with Da Kleverest Boss and this new KFF. Bring a Da Biggest Killa Klaw Boss along with him and you got like a 200 pt duo with excellent durability and killing potential.
flandarz wrote: Loot It won't help your MANz, as it changes the Save Characteristic, not the roll. And your Save characteristic cannot go below a 2+.
Where in the rulebook does it state your save characteristic cant go below a 2+? Bullgryns can get to a 0+ and kastellans a 1+
If you could quote the rule that would be great, as every tournament ive gone to for 8th since it started including throne of skulls has not had a limiter on a save characteristic. Loot it improves the save characteristic by 1, making it a 1+, cover further improves it by 1 so now a 0+ and gleaming gear add 1 to the roll pretty much making it a -1+ save. Ive thought against bullgryns and kastellans with saves below a 2+ and myself have used kastellans and deathwing with saves below 2+
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, remember that most things (such as Cover) affect the dice roll, not the characteristic.
So even with cover and gleaming gear they are still getting a +2 save which is affectively a 0+ save, aka ignoring 2 points of AP in the shooting phase. Aa 1 will still fail. I didnt know about the loot it faq as ive never not once used it.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Clan Psychic Powers
Goffs - Bull Charge WC6
Select one friendly GOFF unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the end of the turn, charge distances of less than 7" rolled for that unit after modifiers count at 7".
Deathskulls - Maniacal Seizure WC7
Pick an enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and when resolving an attack made by a friendly DEATHSKULLS model against that unit, improve the AP of weapons by 1 for that attack.
Bad Moons - Gleamin' Gear WC6
Select one friendly BAD MOONS unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
Snakebites - Constriction WC6
Select one enemy unit within 12" of this psyker. Until the end of your next Psychic phase, halve the Attacks characteristics of models in that unit.
Evil Sunz - Visions in the smoke WC6
Select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of this psychic test was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can reroll the hit roll.
Blood Axes - Clever Talk WC6
Select one enemy unit visible to this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch at BLOOD AXE units from your army and cannot be chosen to fight until all eligible BLOOD AXE units from your army have done so.
Freebooterz - Jolly Ork's Glare WC6
Select one enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, halve the Move characteristic of models in the enemy's unit and subtract 1 from Advance and Charge rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In summary:
Makari and Ghaz suck
Stratagems are mostly bad expect very few gems
Subkulturs are unplayable
Kustom Jobs are VERY VERY GOOD, you can take as many as you wish for 1 CP each but they all have to be different and not on the same unit.
Psychic Powers are strong too (another reason not to look at Subkulturs)
I think the Goff power is « charges more than 7 Away become 7 ». Which is absolutely awesome. You can have Goff boys (or Ghazghkull if friendly game, or if you just painted the model and absolutely want to try it out) charge relatively easily.
gungo wrote: While the big Mek w kff is ork klan only it now works in melee!
Wow that is actually really sweet! I wonder if that's a typo or not.
I suspect if they deliberately changed kff to klan only the removal of shooting only was intended as well.
To be fair this is a good change as it makes the big Mek in mega armor interesting
It makes the meka dread interesting (although I wish the relic killkannon worked on him)
It makes the morkanaut interesting
Well, the fact that the wording for the regular bm has changed, doesn't mean that the wording of the other kffs have changed. Or gw has to faq them, but I don't see that happening
KurtAngle2 wrote: 1 CP Kustom Job Use before the battle to get an additional and different Kustom Job
Kustom jobs are awesome, and so is getting one for each CP. I fully expect my entire buggy army to be customized
1 CP Da Kleverest Boss Use before the battle to have a BIG MEK with +1 Wounds, Attacks and change his WS to 2+. Once per battle and requires not to have Mek Boss Buzzgob
Or in other words - here is your official MA Warboss back. I don't think it's worth using on any other character but a MA big mek, and that one still suffers from its own issues. Might be interesting if transport ever become a thing again.
1 CP Grot Bumper Use during your opponent's shooting phase when a BOOMDAKKA SNAZZWAGONS is successfully wounded by an attack. That wound is considered automatically saved. Once per battle
Cute, but getting shot is pretty much the least problem of snazzwagons...
1 CP Temperamental Shokk Drive Use in your shooting phase when a SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTAS has used his weapons. That unit immediately Advanced and the result is a 4+.
I like. The most common death of my dragastas is moving to a forward position to take out a TF cannon or similar and then get blasted by whatever was screening the thing I killed. Jumping out of LOS for 1CP is very much a life-saver and might double the damage it does.
1 CP Da Biggest Boss Already previewed
Great for the klaw boss, as previously said.
1 CP Klever Spanner Already previewed
Still not sure whether it's worth the trouble, but at least worth testing.
1 CP Da Burnin' Highway Use this in your Shooting Phase when a KUSTOM BOOSTA-BLASTA unit from your army is chosen to shoot with. UNtil the start of your next turn, change the characteristic of that unit's burna exhaust as follows: Range 10", Assault 3, Strenght 5, AP-1
That's... 12 automatic skorcha hits at 10"? If range is not an issue, that translates to about three additional dead guardsmen for 1 CP. That's pretty situational, but definitely a nice tool for the toolbox.
1 CP Flying Headbutt Already previewed
Combined with the other plane stratagem, an air wing might become a must-take.
1 CP Full Speed Ladz! Use this stratagem in your Charge phase, after charging with an ORK BIKER or DEFKILLA WARTRIKE unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, add 1 to that unit's Strenght characteristic.
Screw the trike, skarboy warbikers that I only need to pay after I succeeded a charge? Hell yes.
1 CP Squig Bombs Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, after moving a BLITZA-BOMMER model from your army. Until the end of that phase, add 1 to the roll made for that model's boom ability.
I guess it's an option if you don't want to go for an air wing. But really, the blitza bommer was lacking a way to actually hurt its intended target, vehicles. This only makes it better at bombing large units.
2 CP Speshul Shells Use this stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a FLASH GITZ unit from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of the phase, increase the range of Snazzguns models in that unit are equipped with by 12".
Another toolbox stratagem. Allows you to stand still and benefit from the improved BS if something valuable is within 36". Against most armies, flash gits would still have to move at least once though.
1 CP Patch Up Use this stratagem at the start of any turn. Select one MORKANAUT, GORKANAUT or STOMPA unit from your army. Until the end of the turn, that model is considered to have double the number remaining for the purpose of the damage table.
Finally, the stompa is viable! Situational at best, nauts don't really care about degrading and doubling wounds doesn't bring you up more than one bracket anyways. If you really need 2" more movement for something, I guess you could use this.
2 CP Unstoppable Momentum Use this stratagem in your Charge when an ORK unit from your army has finished a charge move and dealt one or more mortal wounds to an enemy unit. If that ORK unit is no longer within 1" of an enemy unit, it can immediately be chosen to charge with again.
If you ever kill something with ramming speed, pay 2CP and do it again! And yes, the way ramming speed is worded, you get 3d6 and mortal wounds on a 2+ again. Worthless, but hilarious.
1 CP Wildfire Use this stratagem in your Movement Phase, after selecting an enemy unit for the burna bomb ability of a BURNA-BOMMER unit from your army. Select one other enemy unit within 6" of that unit you selected. Roll one D6 for each model in that additional unit, up to a maximum of 10 dice. For each roll of 5+ that unit suffers 1 mortal wound. This stratagem is not affected by the Arsonists Subkultur.
Remember those burna bommers which are dealing mortal wounds on 3+, re-roll their skorcha missiles and can be auto-crashed to ruin someone's day? They now hit a second unit, and you don't even need to fly over it. Just in case you need to clear some space to crash another plane into. *wanders of humming The Ride of the Valeries*
1 CP Dreaded Death Machine Use this stratagem in the Fight Phase, when a DEFF DREAD unit from your army is chosen to fight with. Until the end of the phase, each time an enemy model is destroyed as a result of an attack made by that unit, you can immediately make an additional attack against the same target using the same weapon. These additional attacks cannot generate themselves any further attacks.
A nice bone tossed towards melee dreads, and it even rewards buying the more expensive klaws. If you were looking for a retinue for Thrakka, look no further. Goff dreads with re-rolling ones have decent chance to stomp an entire unit of primaris flat into the ground.
1 CP Hit 'Em Harder Use this stratagem in the Fight Phase, when a MEGANOBZ unit from your army is chosen to fight with. Until the end of that phase, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of melee weapons models in that unit are equipped with.
Holy Good luck getting back up from that one. Also nice that you don't need to invest any CP before you actually know what's going to happen.
Huntas - Sneaky Devils Infantry models only (excluding GRETCHIN). Whilst a model in a unit with this Subkultur is on or within a terrain feature, it gainsa 5+ invulnerable save. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in a unit with this Subkultur, while that model or any model in the target unit is on or within a terrain feature,improve the weapon's AP by 1 for that attack.
I see no reason to use this. If we are doing melee in terrain, we usually don't need any more help.
Boomboyz - Blow It Up! Improve the Strenght and AP characteristic of rokkit and stikkbomb weapons as well tankbusta bombs, wing missiles, kannons, killkannons, deffkannons, da boomber and lobbas equipped on models in a unit with this Subkultur by 1.
S9 AP-3 rokkits? Sounds good enough to build around for me. Obvious winners here are koptas, scrapjets and a single wagon with da boomer kustom job. Tankbustas gain more from bad moons, Stikkbombs are unlikely to make a difference and lobbas still suck.
Flyboyz - Crucial Velocity FLY models only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against a unit with this Subkultur by a model that is more than 1" away, that unit is treated as having the benefit of the cover to its saving throw. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon against a unit with this Subkultur in a turn in which it was more than 1" away from any enemy unit at the start of the preceding Charge phase, subract 1 from hit rolls.
Units with FLY are koptas, storm boyz, zagstrukk, chinork and planes. Or, in other words, no one cares.
Grot Mobs - Cheeky Zoggers Already previewed
Ok-ish for CP detachments. You lose one of your three clans you can pick though.
Tin 'Eads - Krush'n'Krump! KILLA KANS, DEFFDREADS, MEGA ARMOUR, MORKANAUTS, GORKANAUTS and STOMPAS only. When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in an unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the hit roll.
Nice, but probably still inferior to deff skulls or evil suns for those units. Should have been +1 to hit for everything.
Feral Orks - Wildboyz WARBOSS, WEIRDBOY, NOBZ and BOYZ only (excluding BIKER and MEGA ARMOUR). Models in a unit with this Subkultur can pile in up to 6". When making an Advance roll for a unit with this Subkultur, roll two additional dice and discard two of the results.
They are bit faster than evil suns when walking across the board, but they still up to three turns to do so. As a nice touch, neither KFF meks nor pain boyz can keep up. Dead on arrival.
Madboyz - Frantic INFANTRY and BIKER units only (excluding GRETCHIN). At the start of each battle round, roll one D3 and consult the table below to establish what effect applies to all units with this Subkultur until the end of the battle round.
1 Moroniks: When resolving an attack that targets a unit with this Subkultur, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
2 Nuttaz: Unit with this Subkultur automatically pass Morale tests.
3 Frenziers: Add 1 to the Strenght characteristic3 of models in a unit with this Subkultur.
What?!? Roll a dice to get a random buff which is worse than every other culture you could have picked? Mad indeed.
Kustom Jobs:
Spoiler:
KurtAngle2 wrote: Kustom Jobs (1 free with a Mekboy Workshop, 1 CP for each additional Kustom Jobs and all Kustom Jobs taken must be different and if a unit that is taken in a unit is then considered as "singles" after deployment they still retake the Kustom Job given before the start of the game).
So 80 points and sacrifice a detachment, or I pay 3x30 points for gretchin and can pick 5? Gee, I don't know I like that you can get three customized vehicles out of buggies or dread "units".
Squig-Hife Tyres SPEED FREAKS (no units with FLY or named characters), BATTLEWAGON, GUNWAGON, BONEBREAKER or TRUKK. Add +2" to the unit's Move characteristic.
In case you wanted to drive circles around your enemy with that evil suns+redder amour bonebreaka. It's decent for a unit of scrapjets too, since 10" movement is their only downside.
Souped-Up Speshul BOOMDAKKA SNAZZWAGON unit only. replaces the unit's mek speshul with a 30" Assault 15 S4 AP-1 D1
I actually checked the video for that one. Less strength and less AP on an already horrible gun on a schizophrenic model doesn't exactly encourage me to spend a CP on it. According to mathhammer, it .77 more dead guardsmen, so if you buff three, it might do something.
Gyroscopic Whirligig SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTA unit only. You can use this unit's Shokk Tunnel ability when Advancing, even if you did not roll a 4+. In additional that unit does not suffer any mortal wounds as a result of the Shokk Tunnel ability.
If you're evil suns, this is awesome, just jump everywhere you want and shoot what you want. For all others, the -1 to hit when advancing is a bit of a bummer.
Sizzly Rivets KUSTOM BOOSTA BLASTA unit only. When resolving an attack made with a Rivet Kannon by a model in this unit. an umodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.
Might give it a try, since mortal wounds are the one thing buggies are lacking, and it synergizes a bit with deffskulls re-rolls. I'm not expecting wonders though.
Korkscrew MEGATRAKK SCRAPJET unit only. The first time this unit finishes a consolidation move in each Fight Phase, it can immediately fight again.
Hilarious, might need some building around and a unit of 3 jets. Keep in mind that their combat ability is vastly that of a single nob and that three nobz fighting twice isn't exactly something to write home about.
Nitro-Powered Squigs RUKKATRUKK SQUIGBUGGY unit only. When resolving an attack made by this unit's squig launcha or heavy squig launcha, add 1 to the wound roll.
Might be enough to push them into usable territory, but as with the other buggy jobs, you probably need three to get something worth 1CP out of it.
Gork's Roar DEFKILLA WARTRIKE model only. Add 4" to the Range characteristic of this model's killa jet and change the Type characteristic of this burna profile to Assault 6.
I thinks this addresses one of the problems of the wartrike perfectly, the longer range on the melta and the 12" assault 6 skorcha both help with getting your points back without killing your support character by charging him. If you pick a wartrike, this will probably become mandatory.
Da Boomer BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with killkannon. Da Boomer replaces a killkannon and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 3D6 S8 AP-2 D2
If the gunwagon's periscope actually works with da boomer, this might actually be the one reason to bring one. 3d6 shots and 36" is what it should have been from the very beginning. In case you bring a blitz bridgade detachment, doubling its range might actually be worth it.
Zagzap BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model with zzap gun only. Zagzap replaces zzap gun and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 1 S2D6 AP-3 D3
You missed that it automatically hits and does mortal wounds on a 9+ instead of 11+. As above, if it can shoot twice, it might be a reason to bring a gunwagon.
Forktress BATTLEWAGON, BONEBREAKA or GUNWAGON model only. The model has a Save characteristic of 3+ and a invulnerable save of 5+.
Awesome, I can use that to protect the bonebreaka that is carrying Ghazk... no wait. Still might be an option for a bonebreaka, so it clan last another turn in combat.
Pincha Model with grabbin' klaw only. Pincha replaces the model's grabbin' klaw and has the following profile: Melee S+1 AP-3 D6 "Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, add 3 to the hit roll if the targets is a VEHICLE or MONSTER.
This is what the klaw should have been from the beginning. Not worth spending a CP on though.
Red Rolla BONEBREAKA model only. Replace the model's BONEBREAKA Ram ability with the following: When this model makes a charge move, add 6 to its attacks characteristic until the end of the turn.
Too bad a bonebreaka can't take both this and the Forktress. I have never had an issue with my bonebreakas not having enough attacks, so pass.
Orkymatic Pistons Already previewed
A little less exciting in the view of the other upgrade available to them.
Sparkly Bitz KILLA KANS, DEFF DREADS, MORKANAUT or GORKANAUT unit only. Improve the unit's BS by 1.
Quad KMB dreads, rokkit kan, morkanauts want this. I know my naut is never going to leave home without it again. Tripple quad-kmb deff dreads mit actually be pretty scary when hitting on 4s, if you add bad moon or deff skull rerolls.
Dirty Gubbinz KILLA KANS or DEFF DREADS unit only. When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll.
Meh. It's not going to save either, but if you're already running three other mobs of kustomized kans, go wild.
Slug Gubbin GORKANAUT model only. Slug Gubbin replaces the model's deffstorm mega shoota and has the following profile: 36" Heavy 24 S6 AP-1 D1 "When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if the target was within 12" when this weapon was chosen to shoot with, add 1 to the hit roll.
If you were already bringing a Gorkanaut, this is pretty good. Six additional shots and +1 to hit within 12" is pretty neat.
Gog Klaw GORKANAUT or MORKANAUT model only. When rolling to determine the Damage characteristic of the crush profile of the bearer's klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork), rolls less than 4 count as 4.
I guess it matters when you want to take down a knight or something, but against most targets, the other profile is still better. Plus you often don't get to do melee, so that upgrade might be wasted.
Blitza-Gatler STOMPA only. This model mega gatling has a Damage characteristic of 2. In addition, when resolving the weapon's Psycho Dakka Blasta rule you can reroll the D6 once per phase.
Finally, the stompa is viable! Or, maybe not. If you run a stompa, this is now mandatory. Still not worth 1k points.
Clan Psychic Powers
Spoiler:
Goffs - Bull Charge WC6 Select one friendly GOFF unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the end of the turn, charge distances of less than 7" rolled for that unit after modifiers count at 7".
Should have been 9". Goes well with the goff theme of having tons of mediocre things.
Deathskulls - Maniacal Seizure WC7 Pick an enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, when resolving an attack made by that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and when resolving an attack made by a friendly DEATHSKULLS model against that unit, improve the AP of weapons by 1 for that attack.
Debuff an enemies shooting unit and improve AP against it? Great against battle tanks like tank commanders or repulsors, and primaris units really hate this. Sign me up.
Bad Moons - Gleamin' Gear WC6 Select one friendly BAD MOONS unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, add 1 to the saving throw (invulnerable saving throws are unaffected).
Seems very narrowly focused on MANz or nauts, which tend to not be bad moons outside of fluff. I don't think this can compete with warpath of firsts of gork for the second spell slot.
Snakebites - Constriction WC6 Select one enemy unit within 12" of this psyker. Until the end of your next Psychic phase, halve the Attacks characteristics of models in that unit.
That one might really throw a wrench into some units plans. Too bad its part of a worthless culture.
Evil Sunz - Visions in the smoke WC6 Select one friendly EVIL SUNZ VEHICLE unit within 12" of this psyker (you can only select a unit with a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more if the result of this psychic test was 9 or more). Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit, you can reroll the hit roll.
Gotta love how they made buffing a stompa harder. Otherwise a very solid power, combines well with the custom jobs for nauts and gunwagons. A wazzbom would be a good target as well, but getting it in range might be tricky.
Blood Axes - Clever Talk WC6 Select one enemy unit visible to this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch at BLOOD AXE units from your army and cannot be chosen to fight until all eligible BLOOD AXE units from your army have done so.
As before, good power, bad clan.
Freebooterz - Jolly Ork's Glare WC6 Select one enemy unit within 18" of this psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic Phase, halve the Move characteristic of models in the enemy's unit and subtract 1 from Advance and Charge rolls.
Our very own tremor shell! Might have some use to prevent units from falling back.
Summary: Most of this targets our vehicle builds and does little for stuff that already is doing well.
Stratagems provide lots of options, but little in terms of raw power. It remains to be seen if that is enough.
Sub-Cultures mostly suck. Besides the burna bommer combo and two cultures to build around, they fail to compete with what we already have.
Kustom jobs are great, especially the ability to take as many as you want. I doubt that kanz will see a huge revival from this, but the two turret weapons look great and nauts get a boost as well. I fully expect to sink an entire battalion worth of CP into those when running my buggy list, which my opponents already struggle to defeat.
Psychic power look good enough, but none of them are outstanding enough to change your culture for them, except maybe the Evil Suns one. Snakebites, Goff and Bad Moons struggle to compare with Warpath and Firsts of Gork, so you might want to bring a third warphead if you want those.
Personally, I'm hyped for using burna bommers and gunwagons to support my buggies, nauts, koptas and warbikers which have gotten huge pushes from this.
gungo wrote: While the big Mek w kff is ork klan only it now works in melee!
Wow that is actually really sweet! I wonder if that's a typo or not.
I suspect if they deliberately changed kff to klan only the removal of shooting only was intended as well.
To be fair this is a good change as it makes the big Mek in mega armor interesting
It makes the meka dread interesting (although I wish the relic killkannon worked on him)
It makes the morkanaut interesting
Well, the fact that the wording for the regular bm has changed, doesn't mean that the wording of the other kffs have changed. Or gw has to faq them, but I don't see that happening
The new Mek also doesn't list the KFF as equipment, which is pretty weird.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Jidmah the f gitz one is extra 12 inch range, not a boost if you are within 12 (unless mistaken)
I meant to write 36" - thanks for catching that. The idea is that you can stand and shoot if something is close enough instead of moving towards it first.
Tiberius501 wrote: Unstoppable momentum, I have a question. What Ork units deal mortal wounds on the charge?
Scrapjet or if you use the 3d6 charge strategem.
This seems like an odd strat if it only really works in conjunction with another strat.
Also sadly with Ghaz going up to 285pts, I’d have to take some stuff out for him and he just doesn’t seem worth it. I wish he got some sord of Horde killing attack or something but as he is...
Much sadness.
On the bright side at least Deff Dreads got some love. Shame Nobz did not.
Page 127 – Stratagems, Loot It!
Change the first and second sentences of rules text
to read:
‘Use this Stratagem when a Vehicle unit is destroyed.
Select an Ork Infantry unit from your army that was
either within 3" of the vehicle or embarked within it when
it was destroyed. Improve the Save characteristic of that
infantry unit by 1 (e.g. a Save characteristic of 6+ will
become a Save characteristic of 5+), to a maximum of 2+.’
A grot CP detachment of
Big Mek w SAG 3x grots
Mek guns with reroll 1
Killa kans with sparkly bits kustom job for a 3+ bs and reroll 1!!!!! Holy rokkit kans They rival tankbustas
This is a great shoota unit
Plus my evil sun detachment with warboss on bike w relic and big boss strat
Weirdboy or warp head with new psychic power
And my deathskull detachment
Tiberius501 wrote: Unstoppable momentum, I have a question. What Ork units deal mortal wounds on the charge?
Scrapjet, Kustom boostablasta, any vehicle using ramming speed. Thats about it that I can think off, its situational but still a good thing to have in the back pocket. If you have a KBB or MSJ charge say drones or scouts, you have a good chance of killing the unit with 2d3 MWs then charging again to do another 2d3 MWs. Itll help when you need to absolutely kill 2 units that are pretty much near death.
Ghaz is 285 and Makari 65? Absolute trash tier.
Someone will figure out some kind of Ghaz bomb out of deep strike, but the slogging version (as we suspected) is probably dead. It's too expensive. I'd like to see someone crazier than me do awesome things with it, but I just can't see it at that price tag, given we have Da Biggest Boss.
Kustom Jobs are epic.
The Deathskull psychic power is *really* good. Will gleefully take that, given I can now feth with the Eldar I usually fight!
Evil Suns one is great, but the target we have isn't so obvious. What do you wanna cast this on? A Gunwagon maybe with the weapon, assuming it can shoot twice with periscope?
WC9 kind of sucks, given that the shooting vehicle you're probably pinning it on is hanging back and this seems obviously meant for a Mork.
KFF Mek ONLY affecting <CLAN>. Woof. The MA Big Mek with the 1 CP upgrade might be legimately good now, though. Unlocked KFF, and with the now sexy warboss, Fists of Gork having a couple of solid targets sounds good to me.
The subkulturs are actually fine if you wanna lean into a certain strategy. Air wing of Pyros sounds like fun for a laugh and could screw up certain armies.
Taking a gak ton of Tankbustas in Chinorks / Trukks with +1 str / AP sounds nasty. TB don't really need clan bonuses or stratagems to be good, especially if they are shooting at enemy vehicles... I have loved taking multiple units of TB and haven't been disappointed yet.
I would say this added stuff to our toolkit and gave us a bump of power, but probably nothing that pushes up over the top.
How much damn CP are we spending pregame now? This is going to get out of hand. My next game will probably include Da Kleverest Boss AND Da Biggest Boss, and probably a couple of the new Kustom Jobs...
As a Goff player who’s a fan of Ghaz, I’m fairly disappointed.
Unfortunately for me, and my already pretty crappy army list of stuff I like, I’m replacing my old Ghaz with an awesome model but is worse, and also having to get rid of 50pts worth of stuff. And then none of these strats really help me. At least some of these Kustom Jobs are sweet but this book just kind of annoys me haha. I’m glad though it’s given the majority of Orks good stuff though, just unfortunately hasn’t really helped me.
From watching the video, Jid I believe Da Boomer is 2d6 shots not 3d6. And it will definitely need a FAQ with the Zagzap if it benefits from the Gunwagon's Periscope.
Temperamental Shokk Drive might also allow a SJD to jump twice? Once in the movement phase to get into a good position to fire then again after its shot, not to bad really. Funny how Orkz get the best Fire and Fade strat hahaha, even if its limited to 1 unit.
Full Speed Ladz also affects Nob Bikers if youd like to try that they arent too bad if you pair that with Big Choppas. Have the whole unit str 8 on the charge with no negatives to hit or str 12 Klaws/Saws if thats viable... I cant remember of the top of my head but the Warboss on Warbike might also have the Biker keyword so if you wanted to be special and run the Boss with like Headwhoppa's Kilchoppa then knock yourself out at str 9
Too be honest I quite like Boomboys..... Just for the extra AP on Rokkits. The amount of times ive had people save their vehicles on a 4+ / 5+ save is kind of edging me towards it.... I dont run Badmoons anymore and I mainly run buggies so its whether or not its a good trade from Deathskulls... Having that extra STR can help vs Knights/Battlewagons/PBC/Russes/Exocrines and other big gribbles and really, its just the Deathskulls Wrecker strat boiled into all Rokkits, kilkannons and other boomie stuff against those T8 targets which isnt too bad really.
If the KFF Big Mek doesnt get FAQ'd to have to pay for his KFF then ill probs put on back in my list.
Im going to have to rebuy a Gorka, I sadly sold mine last year along with all my Kans, Dreads, Morka and Stompa as I ust never used them, I did run a Morka for a while but I was more drawn to the Speedfreak side of things even if the buggies are still over costed. I actually quite like the idea of a Gorka with 24 shots at BS4 within 12"! Or a Morka with just BS 4 standard on all its guns. This time ill definitely magnetise the zogger!
The one thing I was expecting was more relics, but I guess they fought the Kustom Jobs would be enough (even if they arent technically relics granted they are limited to 1 of each). And I was actually hoping for a Mek Gunz strat or Kustom Job, but that probs would of made them TOO good hahahaha!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Over all though, im fairly happy, apart from Ghaz and Makari being bad and over priced.
Evil Suns Kanz with Sparkly bits and visions cast would be awesome. Would it allow all models in the unit to reroll hits in the shooting and fight phases? If the weirdboy minded could be kept alive this is surely an option?
Big Mek with KFF is an absolute dumpster fire of a datasheet. Is it intended that he got a 20 point drop because you don't have to pay for the KFF since it isn't equipment? Who knows! Is it intended the KFF got nerfed to be <klan> only, even though that means as it stands, wazboms, gorkanauts and big meks with mega armor have KFFs that work on anybody but for some reason the normal big mek's one is DRM-locked to only work on his klan? Who knows! Is it intended that although his KFF is DRM-locked, it works in melee as well as shooting? Who knows!
What a disaster. How does something like that get put out without someone with a brain being like "um, we need to clarify this because it makes no sense?"
Holy crap I totally missed that Lootas could be str 8 ap-2 with boomboyz. Awesome tulun. With that 2cp double roll and a battlewagon or smt that could be juicy. Just make sure you get a beefed up gorka or morka too.
Yeah, that's yet another way that datasheet is a complete mess. They've managed to mess it up in pretty much every way it could be. It's honestly almost impressive in a perverse way.
The real "meaning" is that they have no idea what they're doing. But the RAW on that is that it doesn't affect the vehicle. But a Big Mek in Mega Armor's one still does. Though that one doesn't work in melee.
Even making ghaz Waagh work on him via faq still won’t fix him!
He needs several upgrades including a way to gain CP.
My suggestion is to make all boyz units in his goff detachment skarboys for free but honestly reducing the teleport strat by 1 would make ghaz good for an all in teleport theme.
Ghaz is useless, and even if he wasn't, he's still useless because a normal warboss with the 1CP upgrade is so much better. Not to mention that the Goffs' psychic power is complete trash. Your chance of making a 7 inch charge with 'ere we go is already 85%. Why on earth would you take a psychic power that in the very best scenario raises your chances of making a charge by 15%, if your charge distance is exactly 7 - if it's 6, your chance is already 92%, and 5 is like 96%! And if the distance is above 7, it's obviously completely useless. This has to be a candidate for worst psychic power in the entire game?
Did I call it or did I call it when I said that it would be just like GW to give DS and ES the better psychic powers?
The balance and attention to detail in this book is just atrocious. Which is a shame, since there's a bunch of neat ideas if they had bothered to take the time to do a better job with them.
Gruxz wrote: Holy crap I totally missed that Lootas could be str 8 ap-2 with boomboyz. Awesome tulun. With that 2cp double roll and a battlewagon or smt that could be juicy. Just make sure you get a beefed up gorka or morka too.
Deffkannon not deffgun (afaik) lootas won’t benefit from boomboys
yukishiro1 wrote: Not to mention that the Goffs' psychic power is complete trash. Your chance of making a 7 inch charge with 'ere we go is already 85%. Why on earth would you take a psychic power that in the very best scenario raises your chances of making a charge by 15%, if your charge distance is exactly 7 - if it's 6, your chance is already 92%, and 5 is like 96%! And if the distance is above 7, it's obviously completely useless. This has to be a candidate for worst psychic power in the entire game?
It does serve a purpose, it allows a unit that is already guaranteed a charge from 7" to attempt better movement in the charge+fight phase by letting you reroll both charge dice without worry and aim for a big result.
I don't know if that's worth a psychic power slot when weighed against other powers, but there it is.
Elfric wrote: Wait are we understanding the power correctly. If Ghazghskull deepstrikes and that power goes off isn't it saying he only needs a 7' charge not 9'?
No, it just buffs Charges at 7" or lower ranges. Which is an utter squig dump of a Power. If it was 9", it could make Goffs and Ghazz viable...
GreenTidePackers wrote: So im assuming kustom jobs are applied to a singular unit(one model) and not applied to the multiple models, say if you take 3 boomdakkas?
It’s pregame. If it says choose a unit, it affects all models
Elfric wrote: Wait are we understanding the power correctly. If Ghazghskull deepstrikes and that power goes off isn't it saying he only needs a 7' charge not 9'?
No. Then it would be very, very good. Instead it says if you roll less than a 7 (after modifiers), it counts as a 7. Which makes it utter trash, except I guess on something without 'ere we go, that you're not using ramming speed on.
GreenTidePackers wrote: So im assuming kustom jobs are applied to a singular unit(one model) and not applied to the multiple models, say if you take 3 boomdakkas?
It’s pregame. If it says choose a unit, it affects all models
Really? There's not a clause calling this out in the actual rule? I haven't seen the video that shows the actual pages yet. It seems crazy efficient to pay 1cp and have it affect 3 models.
yukishiro1 wrote: Not to mention that the Goffs' psychic power is complete trash. Your chance of making a 7 inch charge with 'ere we go is already 85%. Why on earth would you take a psychic power that in the very best scenario raises your chances of making a charge by 15%, if your charge distance is exactly 7 - if it's 6, your chance is already 92%, and 5 is like 96%! And if the distance is above 7, it's obviously completely useless. This has to be a candidate for worst psychic power in the entire game?
It does serve a purpose, it allows a unit that is already guaranteed a charge from 7" to attempt better movement in the charge+fight phase by letting you reroll both charge dice without worry and aim for a big result.
I don't know if that's worth a psychic power slot when weighed against other powers, but there it is.
I guess. But that's still trash. Honestly, it's not even worth the chance of your weirdboy blowing himself up except in incredibly specific circumstances, not to mention the cost of forgoing a power that isn't garbage.
And oh wow, I just realized that unlike Thousand Sons that just get these powers for free...we get them *instead* of the weirdboy's normal power, not in addition. Another kick in da teef.
That needs to be changed to 9' then. Because if we're talking about giving a unit a free charge then that absolutely would benefit Ghaz massively because once he hits combat he is going to start wrecking gak. His biggest issue is mobility and he needs something. Damn this is like when originally the Goff warlord trait was a worse version of another trait. I guess we know which clans the Ork codex writers own now
The fluff is all about goffs and ghazkull but the book makes goffs even bigger trash than they were before. I mean literally most of the book is devoted to stuff you either can't use with goffs (subkultures), can't use with ghazkull (the 1cp warbuff 4++, the best thing in the book), or would never want to (kustom jobs and stratagems overwhelmingly having to do with vehicles).
yukishiro1 wrote: Not to mention that the Goffs' psychic power is complete trash. Your chance of making a 7 inch charge with 'ere we go is already 85%. Why on earth would you take a psychic power that in the very best scenario raises your chances of making a charge by 15%, if your charge distance is exactly 7 - if it's 6, your chance is already 92%, and 5 is like 96%! And if the distance is above 7, it's obviously completely useless. This has to be a candidate for worst psychic power in the entire game?
It does serve a purpose, it allows a unit that is already guaranteed a charge from 7" to attempt better movement in the charge+fight phase by letting you reroll both charge dice without worry and aim for a big result.
I don't know if that's worth a psychic power slot when weighed against other powers, but there it is.
I guess. But that's still trash. Honestly, it's not even worth the chance of your weirdboy blowing himself up except in incredibly specific circumstances, not to mention the cost of forgoing a power that isn't garbage.
And oh wow, I just realized that unlike Thousand Sons that just get these powers for free...we get them *instead* of the weirdboy's normal power, not in addition. Another kick in da teef.
I think the psychic power has a very veryyyy small niche and thats basically things that modify your charge range. Unless im interpreting that wrong, say if your charge is halved or there are other modifiers that make your roll worse, like steam the green tide, those tau pathfinder drones, etc. Then even if its modified to a worse distance its still a 7" regardless? so you can actually physically pass a charge at 7" if it is halved by like tremor shells.
GreenTidePackers wrote: So im assuming kustom jobs are applied to a singular unit(one model) and not applied to the multiple models, say if you take 3 boomdakkas?
It’s pregame. If it says choose a unit, it affects all models
Really? There's not a clause calling this out in the actual rule? I haven't seen the video that shows the actual pages yet. It seems crazy efficient to pay 1cp and have it affect 3 models.
The actual rule explicitly tells you that if you have a unit that splits up after deployment, all of them get it. It seems that to compensate for this, jobs that can apply to buggies and dreads are a tad weaker than others.
I think the psychic power has a very veryyyy small niche and thats basically things that modify your charge range. Unless im interpreting that wrong, say if your charge is halved or there are other modifiers that make your roll worse, like steam the green tide, those tau pathfinder drones, etc. Then even if its modified to a worse distance its still a 7" regardless? so you can actually physically pass a charge at 7" if it is halved by like tremor shells.
Yeah that does seem right, and I guess that does give it an extremely narrow niche. Though if you're tremor shelled with goffs, you're moving 2.5+d3, so you're probably not going to be within 7 inches anyway even if in theory you could then use it.
More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.
So, what's the mathematical average hit percentage on a Evil Sunz gunwagon with da boomer kustom job boosted with the "Visions in the smoke" psychic power? And then with/without More Dakka?
If, big if, the persicope stacks with that kustom job it seems like that thing has a lot of potential then.
Jidmah wrote: More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.
Do Lootas really last that long to justify it though? On a unit that guzzles CP already?
Mine often do. With a good spot to shoot from and enough pressure applied to the opponent, they often cannot afford to waste shooting on gretchin. They shot them once to draw CP and that's it.
Jidmah wrote: Mine often do. With a good spot to shoot from and enough pressure applied to the opponent, they often cannot afford to waste shooting on gretchin. They shot them once to draw CP and that's it.
I was sort of wondering if something like this might crop up:
Forktress in a Snakebite detachment, 15 Lootas inside (or 2 units of 10).
Battlewagon now for 125 points (with grot riggers), a 3+/5++/6+++, healing 1 wound a turn on a 2+. Park it in cover, and it has a 2+ save. Thing seems damn hard to shift and keeps your lootas toasty.
Given we aren't using grot shields each round, that spanner thing would bug me less.
I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.
Still going through everything, but Dreaded Death Machine is definitely one of my favorite Strategems so far.
1CP to make a Deff Dread cause an additional attack each time it kills a model with the base attacks? Now it can cut its way through elite infantry units just as well as vehicles. It's also usable when it fights back in your opponent's fighting phase.
Also, regarding the big mek's KFF, I'm going to guess that they don't list it as equipment since it has different rules than the standard KFF wargear.
But still, since it's listed as an ability instead of equipment, that would make it free until they put out a FAQ to confirm their intentions.
If it's not free, then they either have to increase the points of the unit, make a new K-KFF wargear entry, or they could just erratta the old one to this version. We'll have to wait and see.
acme2468 wrote: I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.
Just thinking on my previous thought... the new Deathskull power with Lootas does seem really good.
Boosts them to AP-2. If you are already hiding them in a truck, then Deathskull is totally appropriate for the unit anyway. Can make Lootas more likely to melt the Beakies they should be able to.
Keeping my powder dry on these changes until after FAQ's
I'm convinced that the intent will be that Ghaz benefits fully from all of his own buffs, you just won't be able to jump or transport him.
As it currently stands a regular warboss with the strat and relic claw is just better in all regards which is a sad state of affairs for such an awesome new model.
The KFF working in combat is clearly not the intent either, I mean how would that even work? the whole point of it is that it's like a gungan bubble that extends all around the Mek. No way anybody can claim it works in melee with a straight face.
Pickled_egg wrote: The KFF working in combat is clearly not the intent either, I mean how would that even work? the whole point of it is that it's like a gungan bubble that extends all around the Mek. No way anybody can claim it works in melee with a straight face.
Some will though of course.
Well the Mek clearly looted it from the Militarum Tempestus, and made it Orkier
REFRACTOR FIELD GENERATOR The Adeptus Mechanicus gifted the 133rd Lambdan Lions with this advanced refractor field generator after the Lions successfully cleansed Lurea IX of a Genestealer infestation. 133RD LAMBDAN LIONS model only. Friendly 133RD LAMBDAN LIONS models have a 5+ invulnerable save whilst within 6" of a model from your army with this Relic.
Too bad subcultures are instead clan cultures, which limits their use.
Lists spamming Mek Guns are quite good with Grot Mobs, rerolling 1s with an attional 6++ as bonus. Sweet.
Boomboys might be cool for Kanz, Koptas might also work but i don`t know if they will do more damage as DS or BB. Don`t want to do the math for that one.^^ Guess 5 Koptas it`s BB, 1 Kopta DS.
Pyromaniacs Bommas feels kinda like a trap. A Bommer will do 10 MW if he gets to drop twice and if there are squads of 10 both turns which will become 13-14 as Pyros. Most cases its more like 5-6 will become 7-8.
Might still work as an airwing battalion using all 3, if one would play them anyway.
All other subcultures are trash in comparison with better clan traits.
DS and ES powers are fantastic, freebooters might work as well. Dump the others. That Goff one is a bad joke.
Strategems are fine, some bad, some fantastic. Love that dragsta strategem, gonna use that one a lot. Especially combined with 3 Custom Dragstas that can auto-tunnel every time they want to . That extra 12" for Flash Gits is fantastic. Too bad it doesn`t work in a waggon, but might be usefull from time to time.
But those Custom Jobs are freaking awesome. 4+ BS Morka, Pimped Gattling Gorka, 3+ 5++ Waggon & 3 autojumping dragstas? Yes, please!
Gotta skip the other options expect the Zzapa / Kannon upgrade if it gets FAQ`d.
Good thing i have 150 grot, gonna need a lot of CP now.
acme2468 wrote: I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.
Just thinking on my previous thought... the new Deathskull power with Lootas does seem really good.
Boosts them to AP-2. If you are already hiding them in a truck, then Deathskull is totally appropriate for the unit anyway. Can make Lootas more likely to melt the Beakies they should be able to.
2 x 9 DS Lootas with Spanna strat in a waggon sounds good to me.
Helps with the main problem lootas had with kiling primaris and saves a lot CP.
And drop them out of Tellyport? That could be pretty devastating, but I think youll still want at least a Saw with them, so they're less likely to be absolutely awful once your opponent tags them in CC.
I worked out some math and it takes 2 SAGs and an SSAG to deal Ghaz the 4 Wounds per phase with a minimal of overkill, with average rolls and including Dakka×3 but not including any Kultur bonuses. Just some food for thought, since the Goonhammer article got me thinking.
1CP to give three megatrakks fights twice is pretty wild, my vote for most appealing kustom job in the book, and tied for best thing in the whole book with the 1CP 4++ warboss strat. They already had great shooting, and for 1CP, you double what was already pretty decent melee. 8 STR 8 -2 1D3 damage attacks per combat phase + 50% chance for 1d3 MW for only 100 points on a non-degrading 9 wound 10" move vehicle that also has 2d3 + 1 STR 8 -2 3 damage shots and 12 STR 5 shots?
And it's even better than that, because it's not just 8 attacks, but you get a second pile in and second consolidate - though I guess the trade-off is you can get interrupted on too.
3 of these looks like an auto-take to me in almost any list at this point, probably as DS, though ES is pretty attractive too now because you get big benefit out of both the added move/charge and the ability to advance without losing accuracy.
I think ES still wins out handily, the problem with ork combat units has always been getting them into combat, not what they do once they're there.
I mean I guess if you run them in a vehicle and don't plan on dismounting and charging them until T3 it might be worth thinking about...but even then if your vehicle gets blown up before you can move it twice then you're stranded with a pathetically slow unit.
yukishiro1 wrote: 1CP to give three megatrakks fights twice is pretty wild, my vote for most appealing kustom job in the book, and tied for best thing in the whole book with the 1CP 4++ warboss strat. They already had great shooting, and for 1CP, you double what was already pretty decent melee. 8 STR 8 -2 1D3 damage attacks per combat phase + 50% chance for 1d3 MW for only 100 points on a non-degrading 9 wound 10" move vehicle that also has 2d3 + 1 STR 8 -2 3 damage shots and 12 STR 5 shots?
And it's even better than that, because it's not just 8 attacks, but you get a second pile in and second consolidate - though I guess the trade-off is you can get interrupted on too.
3 of these looks like an auto-take to me in almost any list at this point, probably as DS, though ES is pretty attractive too now because you get big benefit out of both the added move/charge and the ability to advance without losing accuracy.
As pointed out above, the weapon profile of scrapjets isn't actually that great because of their 4+ WS, they are roughly equal to one nob with PK. I wouldn't waste a CP on fighting twice for that, especially since you really want to shoot with them and not be stuck in combat.
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tulun wrote: If we wanna take MANz now, are ES still the defacto choice? Or is that +1 to hit detachment worth looking at?
Going down to a 3+ on my klaws would make me incredibly happy without a baby sitting over priced banner.
It's still at ES. The worth of a melee unit is decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its actual strength. The stratagem to increase their damage by one will pretty much solve any issues you have after the charge. Especially dual killsaws with flat 3 damage seem pretty insane to me.
It's still at ES. The worth of a melee unit is decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its actual strength. The stratagem to increase their damage by one will pretty much solve any issues you have after the charge. Especially dual killsaws with flat 3 damage seem pretty insane to me.
Yeah, fair. That +1 damage is sexy AF. Klaws now reliably kill Primaris / Bikes, and average 3 damage for Cents and the like... I'd still probably keep the Klaw / Kustom Shoota, 43 points is probably too much for MANz, even with the bonus attack.
I guess it would work with fight twice too, so you could have a really, really big turn with the Nobs.
PiñaColada wrote:
I don't know, fighting twice with skrapjets in conjunction with the proccing of MWs in the charge phase is a pretty tasty combo I think..
If you take 3, it's okay I guess. The problem is we really don't want these things in combat, as Jid said. They can fight in combat if we *really* need them too.. but given all this gak that has been tossed our way, we might have to be very, very picky with upgrades. I can just see Orks burning through 6+ CP on pregame strats now.
You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
yukishiro1 wrote: You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
That's about three Terminators worth of damage. Worse, actually-they have an extra attack, and all their attacks are -3 rather than -2.
I don't get the argument that you don't want them in combat. Obviously that's true but charging things that you can kill and effectively gain movement is not a bad thing. And there's plenty of fairly decent units that you have a good chance of killing outright with them and spending 1CP pregame for unlocking that potential is pretty darn viable IMO.
I reckon we'll see that in several of the new buggy lists that will emerge from this
Jidmah wrote: More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.
Do Lootas really last that long to justify it though? On a unit that guzzles CP already?
On an army that guzzles even more CP now
I'm convinced this entire book was designed to create alternatives to Loota stars. Virtually half the strategems now are one CP to upgrade a unit.
They've rarely impressed me in CC. Doubling their attacks helps, but they also probably aren't staying around very long once they hit combat anyway. It's their shooting profile which has won me games. CC was more out of desperation.
I agree on buggy lists becoming more popular, though. The Dragsta with that CP boost is downright bonkers. You can place them wherever you want on the board every turn, and potentially "fire and fade" one of them. ES and DS love this. I think I'd still field them as Deathskulls... 2 4+ hits with a re-roll sounds perfectly acceptable to me given we also have a damage re-roll.
yukishiro1 wrote: You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
That's about three Terminators worth of damage. Worse, actually-they have an extra attack, and all their attacks are -3 rather than -2.
What terminators are you talking about? But I mean yeah, I don't disagree really - that's a lot of melee power. You have enough melee power on a megatrakk fighting twice to kill an average T7 10 wound vehicle in one round of combat (admittedly it's only a 50% chance, though it gets a lot better if you chip a couple wounds off with shooting first). That's pretty sick for a 100 point vehicle with 10 inch non-degrading movement.
I mean you're obviously not going to want to charge cents with them or anything. But I don't see the argument that you're better off sitting at 24 inches shooting stuff with them - they are almost 100% guaranteed to die in your opponent's turn if you do that, whereas if you charge, you get in a large amount of extra damage and force a unit to fall back to be able to shoot at you, diminishing their offensive potential.
You are paying a lot of points for a megatrakk's combat abilities, not making use of them makes them an inefficient choice IMO. And if you do plan to utilize the combat ability, 1 CP to double the combat potential of 3 of them is a no-brainer.
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tulun wrote: I've charged with Scrapjets plenty of times
They've rarely impressed me in CC. Doubling their attacks helps, but they also probably aren't staying around very long once they hit combat anyway. It's their shooting profile which has won me games. CC was more out of desperation.
I agree on buggy lists becoming more popular, though. The Dragsta with that CP boost is downright bonkers. You can place them wherever you want on the board every turn, and potentially "fire and fade" one of them. ES and DS love this. I think I'd still field them as Deathskulls... 2 4+ hits with a re-roll sounds perfectly acceptable to me given we also have a damage re-roll.
They're not staying around period...that's the trouble with buggies. It seems like a pretty weird game to me where they're living longer out of combat than in combat.
Agree that the dragsta kustom job is also outrageously good. I might have to revise my opinion - that is also a strong candidate for best thing in the book.
But it's not just doubling the attacks, it's two activations isn't it? That's a lot of free movement on a slow-ish unit that you get to utilise (on top of actual MWs and attacks). I certainly think there's room to get tricky with that and a singular CP isn't a crazy investment for it. It's definitely not the best kustom job (do we start calling these KJs now?) out there but I think it's quite a bit better than many here seem to allude to.
Edit: Regarding Jump-Shoot-Jump on the SJD it's indeed fantastic. I already did this with my ES one through drive-by krumpin' so now that DS have it it's about to get crazy with their rerolls.
Honestly, the movement Kustom Job is probably better for Scrapjets, no? Going to M12" sounds good to me. These boys are chonky. It's hard to move them.
What's the point of going to M12 if you're planning to sit at 24 inches shooting and avoiding combat?
You can get that already just by going ES - though it's not only +2 movement, it's 1d6+3 extra movement, since you get 2 movement from ES, and then you can advance with no penalty as well. And then you also get access to fire and fade for a whole new 13+d6 movement after shooting if you want, for 1CP.
yukishiro1 wrote: What's the point of going to M12 if you're planning to sit at 24 inches shooting and avoiding combat?
You can get that already just by going ES - though it's not only +2 movement, it's 1d6+3 extra movement, since you get 2 movement from ES, and then you can advance with no penalty as well.
You typically take them as DS for the invul and re-rolls.
they are really unwieldly to use to be honest... Once you start fielding 3-4 buggies on the board, it's really hard to position them how you want. I've found on the boards I've played on it's horribly bogged down because we play with loads of terrain (which I like, it just sucks balls for my mech army).
Oh yeah, terrain is the real killer (I agree, it's nice though) for mech armies. Those buggy bases are getting blocked quite easily and nothing's worse than seeing that the buggy would've made it through had it not been on a base.
Well of course you take them DS normally. I just don't see how another 2 inches of movement is really going to help if your strategy is to plink from 24 inches. 10 inches is still a lot of maneuverability if you're not looking to get close enough to charge. I don't think that's worth the CP at all.
I agree though on how hard it is to maneuver multiple vehicles on a terrain-heavy board...I just don't think adding to the movement characteristic does much to fix that.
If you want a shooting platform that can maneuver easily surely you just want to take dragstas with that kustom job instead, then you get to literally re-position all three of them every turn as long as they're outside 9 inches.
Yeah, those do have quite similar combat potential (the flat 3 damage more or less balances out with the 2 rerolls for wound/damage + ability to pile in and consolidate twice). They also have three fewer wounds and two less toughness (though they do get better saves), move half as fast (though do get free deepstrike), shoot far worse, and lose efficacy as they take damage, which the buggy doesn't. And cost only 10 points less.
The comparison is actually quite a good one. Like terminators, megatrakks are only worth the points if you've got a plan to utilize them in both the shooting and combat phases. Otherwise you're paying a bunch of points for close combat skills you aren't actually getting any use out of. Now obviously that plan doesn't have to be (and probably shouldn't be) charge them straight in T1. But if your megatrakks typically never see combat I think you'd be better off trading them for something else.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well of course you take them DS normally. I just don't see how another 2 inches of movement is really going to help if your strategy is to plink from 24 inches. 10 inches is still a lot of maneuverability if you're not looking to get close enough to charge. I don't think that's worth the CP at all.
I agree though on how hard it is to maneuver multiple vehicles on a terrain-heavy board...I just don't think adding to the movement characteristic does much to fix that.
If you want a shooting platform that can maneuver easily surely you just want to take dragstas with that kustom job instead, then you get to literally re-position all three of them every turn as long as they're outside 9 inches.
The bonus movement can help with positioning, as the rockets being 2 feet can be problematic when you're maneuvering around terrain; 2" can actually make a difference.
They also aren't substitutes in terms of targets; you often want both for a TAC style list. Megatrakk has some decent chaff clearing, and the dragsta threatens targets it can't *as* well, especially as a deathskull. d6 re-rollable damage, AP-3, and it potentially generates mortal wounds.
I'm not sure the CC potential thing is as interesting to me as movement. That being said, you might not want either. It'll really depend once I start brewing lists how much CP I'm spending... If we also tellyporta units, Orks are gonna start the game with single digit CP from 18.
Right, if you're taking 3 dragstas and 3 scrapjets, I can't see that spending 1CP to make the scrapjets 2" quicker is going to be a great choice, as you're obviously spending the 1CP for the dragstas since I don't think there is any world where that doesn't always make sense.
yukishiro1 wrote: Right, if you're taking 3 dragstas and 3 scrapjets, I can't see that spending 1CP to make the scrapjets 2" quicker is going to be a great choice, as you're obviously spending the 1CP for the dragstas since I don't think there is any world where that doesn't always make sense.
Yeah, that stratagem is honestly probably an autotake if you even take *one* dragsta. It's that good. It can try to fish out Whirlwinds / TFCs, it can start anywhere in your deployment zone for all it matters for how you play (IE, you can always hide them)... if they get tagged with something like a Tremor shell, that doesn't absolutely nothing to stop it from doing what you want.
If they survive till the end, they can easily snag you recon from anywhere on the board.
Dragstas were already good, and probably even became a green tier unit for the army if upgraded this way.
I think they're an auto-take in almost any list at this point, TBH.
I have revised my opinion, it is the best thing in the book. I still think the fight twice for scrapjets is fantastic, but the dragsta one just makes the unit so much better period, no matter how you use it. I can't see why you'd ever take a dragsta again without it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, one weird thing about it - RAW, doesn't that mean you can choose whether to use the jump ability if you roll a 1 to a 3 for advancing, but you HAVE to use it if you roll a 4-6? Or do we think it makes it always optional, even if you roll a 4-6? I would far the former, which is...odd, if arguably rather orky.
There's some cheeky things here but also some missed opportunities.
I'm a happy bunny though, all of the buggies were buffed, Evil Sunz have the best psychic power of all IMO and there are a few more options to try and make other (particularly Grot) units viable.
We lack an outright power boost but this gives us more options and some of them do seem formidable.
Dragstas with the stratagem and kustom job are brilliant.
KBBs seem decent with their stratagem.
I'm even tempted by Snazzwagons, not least of all because I'm currently in the middle of painting one up. A 1CP "ignore any shot" and -1 to hit inherent should allow me to get them into position.
yukishiro1 wrote: You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
That's a 2.25 hits on average per fight phase, WS3 is 2.66 hits. So your statement is just flat out wrong.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
It's not. It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.
Nobz with PK are better in combat than scrapjets, and they see no play because they suck at killing stuff. Don't waste CP on upgrading something from bad to mediocre.
Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?
Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower
I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.
Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.
They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.
Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.
TedNugent wrote: I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.
Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.
They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.
Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.
I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army
Automatically Appended Next Post: id rather take units of big shoota koptas
Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?
Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower
BS4 with full rerolls is better than a 3+.
Honestly the biggest problem I see is that WC9... you really need 18-28 models near them to make it work.
Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?
Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower
BS4 with full rerolls is better than a 3+.
I didnt see the ES part but yea Evil Suns Morka with kustom Ammon would be crazy good if you can get that power off.
A few things im looking at is a BS 4 Morka, a Gorka with the Slug Gubbins with Kustom Ammo or 3 Deff Dreads either with 4 KMB each with BS4, as thats 81pts a Dread, and tbh if they get locked in combat with chaff a single klaw/saw wont save them really with 3 attacks each or 4 rokkits a Dread at BS 4 as Boomboys.but thats 93pts a Dread. Im leaning more towards the Gorka with Slug Gubbins just for the 48 shots with Kustom Ammo
TedNugent wrote: I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.
Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.
They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.
Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.
I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army
Automatically Appended Next Post: id rather take units of big shoota koptas
Big shoota Koptas are more expensive and the shooting is frankly inferior. You can also take a bigger unit of Big Choppa Nobs or Warbikers and make that +1S and -1 to hit shine.
I like the idea of small units of Koptas flying up and harassing units in ruins though. You could use the 3D6 charge strategem, the +6" movement and the Wartrike to get out there from the deployment zone onto a ruin double quick.
My brain is telling me "why not both?"
A big unit of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with a Warboss on WB and a Deffkilla with a 5-strong unit of Koptas clearing out units from ruins.
It seems to me it would work as Evil Sunz or Snakebites.
It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.
I wouldn't call it "sick" combat potential but I look at the damage output you have there against vehicle targets and I see a vehicle that scraped past getting killed in my shooting phase being reliably polished off by my Skrapjet, who will be free to use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas, and wing missiles in the following turn.
TedNugent wrote: I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.
Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.
They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.
Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.
I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army
Automatically Appended Next Post: id rather take units of big shoota koptas
Big shoota Koptas are more expensive and the shooting is frankly inferior. You can also take a bigger unit of Big Choppa Nobs or Warbikers and make that +1S and -1 to hit shine.
I like the idea of small units of Koptas flying up and harassing units in ruins though. You could use the 3D6 charge strategem, the +6" movement and the Wartrike to get out there from the deployment zone onto a ruin double quick.
My brain is telling me "why not both?"
A big unit of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with a Warboss on WB and a Deffkilla with a 5-strong unit of Koptas clearing out units from ruins.
It seems to me it would work as Evil Sunz or Snakebites.
You can try it and let us know! But I still find the bikers too costly and fragile. Koptas maybe expensive individually but 165pts for a unit of 5, with fly, a better advance, an innate deepstrike (limited to board edges) and already base str 5 with potential more attacks with a smaller foot print just seems more cost effective. Youd have to take a crappy trike to advance and charge them but they are better for tying stuff up, board control and general harassment roles. 7 Warbikers for the cost of 5 Koptas isnt the best really unless you value the extra 12 shots.
If Warbikers were 18-20pts then hell yeah, but 23pts is too much, they die to quick even if you give them a -1 to hit. Nob bikers are an ever worse offender for over costed.
If you can make its work tell us! Id love to crack out my 24 Warbikers and 6 Nob Bikers again
Its a shame the Mek Workshop didn`t get any real buffs.
Only thing that might be kinda worth it is Getting a Gorkanaut with the Slug Gobbin KJ a Mek Workshop Kustom Job and get something "extra speshul" on a 4+ with vigilus strat to make his weapon D2.
(Which brings the question weather this is legal or not since both rules are named Custom Job but do different things?)
Play it as Evil Sunz and you get 48 shots, rerolling hits and doing 2 dmg each - thats about 11 dead Primaris with Kustom Ammo + 24 shots big shoota and the other gunz.
Freebooters Naut hitting on 3s sounds fun as well.
DS Naut can still use wreckers to wreck light vehicles as well.
flandarz wrote: Pretty sure the Mek Workshop specifies that a unit can only have 1 Kustom Job.
For stratagems yeah but its datasheet ability?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: I think Mork vs Gork for shoot twice will simply vary by what you're facing.
Which I guess means you just gotta field one of each.
Both seem really good on paper, though.
I just don't like that WC9. The relic we could give the Weirdboy doesn't even help, as none of these powers seem to count as Waaagh psychic powers.
Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas
Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas
Needs to be ported, though :( Tellyporta is looking so expensive... too many good upgrades.
That's basically 5 CP just for the Gork (Ramming speed + Kustom Job + tellyporta).
Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas
Needs to be ported, though :( Tellyporta is looking so expensive... too many good upgrades.
Tbh either variant kinda needs to be ported, a Morka/Gorka simply wont survive with a 5++ and t8 in the day and age of shooty 40k
flandarz wrote: Pretty sure the Mek Workshop specifies that a unit can only have 1 Kustom Job.
For stratagems yeah but its datasheet ability?
So, Saga says that all the kustom jobs you include must be different and be given to different units, but it doesn't say a unit can't have more than one kustom job. Same deal with the workshop, a unit can only receive a kustom job once per turn, but it doesn't say a unit is limited to only having 1.
Since the new kustom jobs are applied before turn 1, then I think it's safe to say you can use the mek workshop turn 1 to give a unit one of the old kustom jobs. Whether that's worth it or not is up to you though lol
Reading over the Mek Workshop, all it says is "once per turn" for Kustom Jobs, so I don't know. Might be they COULD stack, but would it really be worth sitting around doing nothing for a whole turn for a minor bonus on the next turn and a 16.7 (or 50% if you wanna spent CP) for a +1D? Especially considering your opponent is gonna see what you're trying?
flandarz wrote: Reading over the Mek Workshop, all it says is "once per turn" for Kustom Jobs, so I don't know. Might be they COULD stack, but would it really be worth sitting around doing nothing for a whole turn for a minor bonus on the next turn and a 16.7 (or 50% if you wanna spent CP) for a +1D? Especially considering your opponent is gonna see what you're trying?
Not saying its good, just trying to find any good way to use it. Thought this might be the least bad one.^^
Khorzain wrote: So, Saga says that all the kustom jobs you include must be different and be given to different units, but it doesn't say a unit can't have more than one kustom job. Same deal with the workshop, a unit can only receive a kustom job once per turn, but it doesn't say a unit is limited to only having 1.
Since the new kustom jobs are applied before turn 1, then I think it's safe to say you can use the mek workshop turn 1 to give a unit one of the old kustom jobs. Whether that's worth it or not is up to you though lol
Good catch, thanks.
That's basically 5 CP just for the Gork (Ramming speed + Kustom Job + tellyporta).
Did that before the new rules dropped as well and did never regret the investment. Well, unless that one time i failed to charge those damn agressors that beat the poor Gorka down afterwards. :(
Tbh either variant kinda needs to be ported, a Morka/Gorka simply wont survive with a 5++ and t8 in the day and age of shooty 40k
Well if you go first you can deploy the Morka, its a 5/6 chance you get the first turn.
Against infantry primaris (I face them a lot.) i deploy him as well out of range, that 48" + move gets him to a nice spot most of the time.
I just don't like that WC9. The relic we could give the Weirdboy doesn't even help, as none of these powers seem to count as Waaagh psychic powers.
Damn it, i hope they FAQ that as well.
Oh and lets see if they FAQ that Medi Squigg strat can still heal Ghaz. Not sure if that was intended, same as all the stuff going on with his and the KFF datasheets.
yukishiro1 wrote: You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
That's a 2.25 hits on average per fight phase, WS3 is 2.66 hits. So your statement is just flat out wrong.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
It's not. It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.
Nobz with PK are better in combat than scrapjets, and they see no play because they suck at killing stuff. Don't waste CP on upgrading something from bad to mediocre.
Yeah, you're right, I was baking two rerolls into each phase for some stupid reason. It is an average of 2.25 hits per phase. It's a little over 5 damage to a standard T7 vehicle with a 3+ save, plus the average 1 MW from the charge, plus the defensive benefits of being in combat. I just don't see any world where you are better off forgoing 6 damage and sitting there and letting the vehicle shoot you rather than charging in and doing an additional 5 damage and disabling their shooting for a round (unless they have special overwatch capabilities / ability to fall back for free/ etc).
Obviously you don't want to charge something that will stay in combat with you like chaff infantry, or against anything that's good in combat. But against anything that isn't good in combat...are they really going to want to sit in combat with your 8str 8 d3 damage attacks for at least two more rounds (their turn and yours) just to disable one round of your shooting, while being unable to shoot your scrapjet? In most cases I would bite the hand off anyone that offered me that bargain.
I mean like take the T7 vehicle example. You charge in and bring it to half health. If you've plinked anything off it form your shooting before the charge, you are statistically more likely than not to destroy that vehicle in their combat phase. If they fall back, you're not in combat any more on your turn, so you've gained 6 free wounds and disabled their shooting. If they stay in combat...statistically you're likely to destroy them, so you gained 10 free wounds and can shoot in your turn.
The only way that turns out badly is if they fall back with their vehicle and charge in some crappy chaff instead...and even so, you shut down their shooting for a turn and did 6 wounds, whereas if you had just sat there, they'd likely have used that vehicle to blow you up.
I just don't see many times it's better to sit there and let them shoot back at you rather than charge in, if you have a charge target worth charging (i.e. not crappy chaff). The effective range on the scrapjet is so low that if you are within 24, you're more often than not safer in combat than out of it, and it doesn't matter how shooty your vehicle is if it isn't going to live to your next shooting phase.
Did that before the new rules dropped as well and did never regret the investment. Well, unless that one time i failed to charge those damn agressors that beat the poor Gorka down afterwards. :(
Well if you go first you can deploy the Morka, its a 5/6 chance you get the first turn.
Against infantry primaris (I face them a lot.) i deploy him as well out of range, that 48" + move gets him to a nice spot most of the time.
I think the big problem I see is with dropping 5 CP off the top for the Gork is our current CP burn rate...
So assuming we do triple bat, which limits army comp quite a bit (requiring 6 HQs and 9 troop choices... I have often been doing bat, bat, outrider for instance)... we have:
1 CP for two relics (Klaw + SSAG)
1 CP For Da Biggest Boss (cause YES)
1 CP for Vigilus
5 CP for Gork option (Ramming, Porta, 1 Kustom Job)
We're now down to 10 CP before anything else. And there are other kustom jobs that are insane (Dragsta, +1 BS for Mork/Gork/Dreads, Forktress, Wartrike upgrade), Stratagems people seem interested in (Spanner, MAN extra damage, possibly MA Big Mek upgrade)
I think army comp is about to get interesting, as we need to start moving away from the Tellyporta if we want to use all of these toys. I am actually pretty excited to see what is cooked up.
Most of what eats ork CP is stuff to do with double shooting with more dakka, whether with lootas, SSAG, or whatever. If you run a list that doesn't revolve around that, your CP consumption goes way down.
I do like that the supplement doesn't really do much for the double-shoot focused list and seems to be trying to tempt you to build stuff that doesn't revolve around it. Whether it does enough I'm not sure, but it's good to see.
I don't think SSAG mek is going anywhere though, the relic is just too good, even in a list where you never spend a single CP on him beyond the cost of the specialist detachment (and probably the 1CP for the extra relic for the klaw too).
1 CP for two relics (Klaw + SSAG)
1 CP warphead
1 CP For Da Biggest Boss
1 CP for Vigilus
1 CP dragsta kustom job- gyroscopic
1 CP killa kan kustom job- sparkly bits
3 CP gorkanaut- kustom job- slug gubbin, teleport
My list
Evil suns detachment-
Biker boss and relic klaw (or zhardsnark) w da biggest boss
Kff big Mek (if kff for mega armor Mek changes then klever boss)
1x 30 choppa boys
2x 10 shoota boys
Death skull detachment (vigilus)
SSAG Mek w warlord trait bbk
Warpead- mechanical seizure and da jump
3x 10 grots
Gorkanaut- slugg gubbin, teleport
3x dragsta- gyroscopic
Grot detachment
SAG Mek
3x10 grots
6x smasha gun (because I got 5 and will get 1 more)
6x killa kans w 3 rokkits each (sparkly bits)
(This is 18x bs3 reroll 1 str8 ap-2 d3) move over tankbustas!
Useful in game strategems
Mob up and green tide
Vigilus shoot twice on gork
Temperamental Shokk drive on dragsta
I kinda feel I’m low on boys and the gorkanaut is a point/cp trap even with +1bs, extra shots, death skull trait, and vigilus shoot twice... but he sounds like he can break a hole in screens.
I've been drinking, but the immediate issue I see is that you included both vehicles and infantry. That gives your opponent optimal targets for all their weaponry. Better to stick to one or the other.
Well, all ork lists have to include vehicles and infantry, because each batt needs a minimum of 30 infantry models. All he's got is one unit of 30 boyz plus another 10 to mob up, which is reasonable even in an infantry-lite list. Though I might cut it down to just the unit of 30, I'm not sure mob up is all that useful in that sort of list.
Doom is reroll wounds. This is basically jinx + drain rolled into one ability, with the drain better because it's all hits not just melee ones, but the jinx worse because it doesn't impact invulnerable saves.
But yes, it's wickedly good. There's a reason jinx and drain are two separate powers, not combined into one. I think the BA one is arguably the most powerful, but you have to be BA for that, so it's kinda a non-starter. The DS one is definitely the best of the powers in competitive kultures, and it's one of the better powers in the game, though probably not the best - doom is still the best power in the game IMO, with Death Hex number two.
tulun wrote: The more I think about maniacal seizure the more I love it. I dunno, it might be better then visions.
It’s like dooming a unit. Our choppas and shootas are now AP-1; point it as a vehicle and watch how it melts to rocket fire at ap-3.
Seems crazy how useful it is. Even if you just use it as a debuff for the hit modifier. It’s crazy good.
The issue is range...
Maniacal seizure I need to target the enemy within 18in of psyker
Visions I need to target a friendly ork vehicle within 12in and they can shoot however far they can...
I was tempted to put a gorkanaut for visions in the evil sun detachment for the full rerolls however it wasn’t worth losing the option for the death skulls traits and vigilus shoot twice strategem. And vigilus stays with the SSAG.
Visions is useable right from turn 1 whereas maniacal seizures will be more situational.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Well, all ork lists have to include vehicles and infantry, because each batt needs a minimum of 30 infantry models. All he's got is one unit of 30 boyz plus another 10 to mob up, which is reasonable even in an infantry-lite list. Though I might cut it down to just the unit of 30, I'm not sure mob up is all that useful in that sort of list.
I’d switch 1 squad of orks to Gretchin but there is literally nothing they can grot shield in the evil suns detachment.
I’m assuming the dragsta are better in deathskulls Even though they will suffer a penalty for advancing all the time.. and they won’t lose out in death skulls traits.
Honestly only being allowed 1 kustom job of each type is limiting...
I haven't done the math, but my instinct is to say that even when advancing, you probably end up doing more damage with DS because of the rerolls. For example a reroll damage on a 1d6 weapon is wickedly good, raising your average damage from 3.5 to about 4.5 assuming you reroll 1 to 3 and keep 4+. I suspect based on eyeball math that the wound and damage reroll for the shokkgun outweighs the loss of accuracy on your rokkit - the accuracy of the shokkgun itself stays almost exactly equal (1.56 average hits for hitting on 3s without a reroll vs 1.52 for hitting on 4s rerolling one of the two).
And then you're dramatically better when not advancing, and you get the 6+++. You do lose 2 inches of movement, but it's not like movement is really a consideration on a unit that moves 14 and can teleport literally any time it wants to when it moves.
yukishiro1 wrote: I haven't done the math, but my instinct is to say that even when advancing, you probably end up doing more damage with DS because of the rerolls. For example a reroll damage on a 1d6 weapon is wickedly good, raising your average damage from 3.5 to about 4.5 assuming you reroll 1 to 3 and keep 4+. I suspect based on eyeball math that the wound and damage reroll for the shokkgun outweighs the loss of accuracy on your rokkit - the accuracy of the shokkgun itself stays almost exactly equal (1.56 average hits for hitting on 3s without a reroll vs 1.52 for hitting on 4s rerolling one of the two).
Dragstas are unequivolcally better as Deathskulls.
On the weapon that matters: 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits if they both advance (rocket is obviously worse). You are also less likely to overheat because of your reroll.
You also get a wound and damage re-roll. Plus a 6++ invul. 100% these should be DS.
gungo wrote:
The issue is range...
Maniacal seizure I need to target the enemy within 18in of psyker
Visions I need to target a friendly ork vehicle within 12in and they can shoot however far they can...
I was tempted to put a gorkanaut for visions in the evil sun detachment for the full rerolls however it wasn’t worth losing the option for the death skulls traits and vigilus shoot twice strategem. And vigilus stays with the SSAG.
Visions is useable right from turn 1 whereas maniacal seizures will be more situational.
I don't think I agree with this.
The main issue with visions is actual, good targets for the buff. The problem is we have 4 *really* good targets for visions, 3 of which requiring 9+ psychic tests. Targeting a unit of koptas or a single scrapjet will be largely underwhelming.
1) Stompa (non viable)
2) Gorkanaut (shouldn't start on the board)
3) Morkanaut (as some have argued, shouldn't start on the board. This one is probably best Turn 1 though)
4) Gunwagon IF the new Kustom Job gun can shoot twice with periscope, averaging 14 rocket shots a round.
If you go first, you might struggle to find many targets for 24" rockets, so Visions might largely be wasted except on Morks. If you go second, a weirdboy moving and advancing after the enemy has probably moved toward you means they'll likely be in range anyway.
I think ML is way less situational than you describe. Applying a negative hit modifier is no longer good against pretty much every army in the game? Similarly, needing a unit deleted is common, and Orks rather lacklustre AP is upgraded.
If the WC wasn't 9 I might be more on board... but I can see it whiffing all the time. 7+ doesn't require as much waagh energy to make it pretty likely to go off.
I meant situational as getting your wierdboy in range of the enemy. Although 18in is decent it’s not always in range which we tend to notice when you look for decent smite targets.
It's actually even closer on the hits, because of DDD on 6s only. My calculator says 1.56 vs 1.52, i.e. almost exactly the same.
The problem with visions is that none of the targets you want to cast it on want to be ES, and most of the targets you want to cast it on require a 9, which is pushing it even with the +3 to cast.
18 inches is a limitation on the DS power, but not a huge one. It does mean you have to be more aggressive with your weirdboy, but that's rarely going to be a huge issue, and it's often the better play anyhow frankly because if you sit him back he's generally not doing a whole lot after his first turn warpath + da jump anyway, which is a waste.
yukishiro1 wrote: You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.
That's a 2.25 hits on average per fight phase, WS3 is 2.66 hits. So your statement is just flat out wrong.
8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.
It's not. It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.
Nobz with PK are better in combat than scrapjets, and they see no play because they suck at killing stuff. Don't waste CP on upgrading something from bad to mediocre.
Yeah, you're right, I was baking two rerolls into each phase for some stupid reason. It is an average of 2.25 hits per phase. It's a little over 5 damage to a standard T7 vehicle with a 3+ save, plus the average 1 MW from the charge, plus the defensive benefits of being in combat. I just don't see any world where you are better off forgoing 6 damage and sitting there and letting the vehicle shoot you rather than charging in and doing an additional 5 damage and disabling their shooting for a round (unless they have special overwatch capabilities / ability to fall back for free/ etc).
Obviously you don't want to charge something that will stay in combat with you like chaff infantry, or against anything that's good in combat. But against anything that isn't good in combat...are they really going to want to sit in combat with your 8str 8 d3 damage attacks for at least two more rounds (their turn and yours) just to disable one round of your shooting, while being unable to shoot your scrapjet? In most cases I would bite the hand off anyone that offered me that bargain.
I mean like take the T7 vehicle example. You charge in and bring it to half health. If you've plinked anything off it form your shooting before the charge, you are statistically more likely than not to destroy that vehicle in their combat phase. If they fall back, you're not in combat any more on your turn, so you've gained 6 free wounds and disabled their shooting. If they stay in combat...statistically you're likely to destroy them, so you gained 10 free wounds and can shoot in your turn.
The only way that turns out badly is if they fall back with their vehicle and charge in some crappy chaff instead...and even so, you shut down their shooting for a turn and did 6 wounds, whereas if you had just sat there, they'd likely have used that vehicle to blow you up.
I just don't see many times it's better to sit there and let them shoot back at you rather than charge in, if you have a charge target worth charging (i.e. not crappy chaff). The effective range on the scrapjet is so low that if you are within 24, you're more often than not safer in combat than out of it, and it doesn't matter how shooty your vehicle is if it isn't going to live to your next shooting phase.
You're 100% on spot with this analysis, and that's exactly what the nose drill is for: Finishing unit off. But in the light of what else you can get for a single CP now, I think there is no need to spend it on something that might very well not come up in a game at all. I've been playing my buggies a lot recently, and in my experience I only charge something with a scrap jet every other game, and one out of three times, I regret doing so.
Yeah, I can see that point of view. I guess my counterpoint is that in terms of efficiency, spending 1CP to literally double the combat potential of three scrapjets is so massively efficient that it seems like a pretty solid choice even if you don't use it every game. Being able to do an average 5-6 damage to anything under T8 in one combat round is a pretty nifty thing to have up your sleeve on three separate buggies.
TedNugent wrote: I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.
Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.
They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.
Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.
I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army
I agree. I've been running warbikers a lot, and their job is pretty much the same as da jumping boyz. With the help of the kult of speed detachment, they reliably get off turn one charges and bog down infantry which usually struggles to fight there way out of it because wounding T5/4+ is difficult. I rarely, if ever use the -1 to hit because its usually no problem to arrest a unit - not even tri-pointing them, just surround them so 6" movements doesn't get them out of 1".
They are doing their job just fine, but are too expensive for that.
I've experimented with supporting them with a pain boy, but it rarely made a difference, so I think neither will the snakebite clan. Deff skulls work much better, since you get a 6++ vs power swords and fists, as well as re-rolls for the nob's killsaw.
Nob bikers still are way overpriced, 330 points before wargear is just insane, just bring a morkanaut instead.
In general, Snakebites is a bad culture, with a bad warlord trait, a mediocre stratagem and relic and now a mediocre psychic power. Picking about anything else, including goff, is going to be better.
Bikes really suffer from not being able to bypass screens IMO. You are paying premium points for a unit that (1) doesn't hit hard in combat, (2) folds under any sustained fire, and (3) struggles to bypass screens. You gotta hope you can wrap and trap, that the screen doesn't have fly, and that they don't have a decent melee unit that can just come in and wipe you since your defense and offense in combat is both pretty junk for a unit of your cost.
If they were closer to like 15 points - even if that meant losing one of the dakkaguns - I think they'd be much closer to viable.
yukishiro1 wrote: Bikes really suffer from not being able to bypass screens IMO. You are paying premium points for a unit that (1) doesn't hit hard in combat, (2) folds under any sustained fire, and (3) struggles to bypass screens. You gotta hope you can wrap and trap, that the screen doesn't have fly, and that they don't have a decent melee unit that can just come in and wipe you since your defense and offense in combat is both pretty junk for a unit of your cost.
If they were closer to like 15 points - even if that meant losing one of the dakkaguns - I think they'd be much closer to viable.
The point was, does +1S on the charge change that? It makes the Big Choppa wound MEQs on 2's, vehicles on 4's or 3's, and makes each choppa wound on 3's on MEQs/5's on vehicles. With 72 shots on a full unit combined with S5 on the charge, that seems like a fairly efficient unit in terms of mobility, shooting, and assault on its face.
They average 5.82 wounds on MEQs at BS5 and 6.5 wounds on first round of combat on MEQs with the strategem. They have 25 wounds behind a 4+/T5. For 281 points.
By contrast, a 30 man mob of Shootas puts out 3.65 wounds on MEQs from shooting, 11.3 in combat . They have T4/6+ for 215 points. That seems pretty comparable when you account for the mobility difference.
yukishiro1 wrote: Bikes really suffer from not being able to bypass screens IMO. You are paying premium points for a unit that (1) doesn't hit hard in combat, (2) folds under any sustained fire, and (3) struggles to bypass screens. You gotta hope you can wrap and trap, that the screen doesn't have fly, and that they don't have a decent melee unit that can just come in and wipe you since your defense and offense in combat is both pretty junk for a unit of your cost.
Screens actually never have been my problem. You can usually drive up to 1.1 in front of a screen and gun them down with dakkaguns to charge what's behind them, and I've also had great success with bombing holes into screens with bommer so I can drive past them in the same movement phase. You also don't really need to 'hope' for trapping either, even if 28" movement+charge isn't enough to catch something, you can still use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem.
Have a look at this picture from one of my games:
Spoiler:
This something that actually happens quite often, the Ultramarines in the middle aren't actually tri-pointed, but they still can't leave combat, because 6" doesn't take them outside of 1".
If they were closer to like 15 points - even if that meant losing one of the dakkaguns - I think they'd be much closer to viable.
To me, 17 feels like what they should be. They absolutely have identical roles to boyz, so a unit of bikers should cost about the same as a unit of boyz.
23 is what I would pay for a nob biker.
1. Kustom job - You don' t need a Mekboy Workshop to have a custom job. Or it seems to be so, because:
“ If you’ve not got a Mekboy Workshop, you can still choose a Kustom Job through the use of a Stratagem. So, everybody can have a Souped-up Speshul, some Nitro-powered Squigs or a Forktress.”
2. Big Mek with KFF - CLAN lock
- CLAN lock = no kff for grots?? Because the\ do not benefit from CLAN culture
- no wargear option, just choppa
- no TRANSPORT explanation = KFF do not work in transport
- KFF Mek has the KFF ability with the same name like MA Big Mek = this new gakky version should be valit also for the MA Big Mek and for Wazboom Blastajet?
- KFF now works in melee
Tomsug wrote: 1. Kustom job - You don' t need a Mekboy Workshop to have a custom job. Or it seems to be so, because:
“ If you’ve not got a Mekboy Workshop, you can still choose a Kustom Job through the use of a Stratagem. So, everybody can have a Souped-up Speshul, some Nitro-powered Squigs or a Forktress.”
2. Big Mek with KFF - CLAN lock
- CLAN lock = no kff for grots?? Because the\ do not benefit from CLAN culture
- no wargear option, just choppa
- no TRANSPORT explanation = KFF do not work in transport
- then KFF Mek has the KFF ability with the same name like MA Big Mek = this new gakky version should be valit also for the MA Big Mek and for Wazboom Blastajet?
Grots have klan keywords but don't benefit from the rules. So they will be affected by the KFF.
You really don't need much wargear on the mek. the fact that he essentially has a free KFF coming in at just 55 is awesome.
I dunno, I rarely put them in vehicles as it stops him healing and it reduces his aura to just the one vehicle
technically he does not have the KFF wargear at all. Just an odd new rule. which also affects units in kombat which is a pretty sizable buff.
TedNugent wrote: The point was, does +1S on the charge change that? It makes the Big Choppa wound MEQs on 2's, vehicles on 4's or 3's, and makes each choppa wound on 3's on MEQs/5's on vehicles. With 72 shots on a full unit combined with S5 on the charge, that seems like a fairly efficient unit in terms of mobility, shooting, and assault on its face.
They average 5.82 wounds on MEQs at BS5 and 6.5 wounds on first round of combat on MEQs with the strategem. They have 25 wounds behind a 4+/T5. For 281 points.
The problem with MEQ (or more accurately, primaris, no one uses MEQ anymore) is their armor save. The killsaw does most of the heavy lifting here for me.
+1S usually means one more dead marine, which isn't too bad. Being able to wound T5 stuff on 4s and T8 on 5s has much more impact. The good thing is you don't have to spend the CP unless you know you need it, against MEQ i'd rather not use it.
By contrast, a 30 man mob of Shootas puts out 3.65 wounds on MEQs from shooting, 11.3 in combat . They have T4/6+ for 215 points. That seems pretty comparable when you account for the mobility difference.
Boyz are troops though, so you would have to add 30 points of gretchin tax on top of the bikers. In addition, they have more wounds (31 vs 25) and can be da jumped.
Neither unit is actually good at killing anything but chaff.
Tomsug wrote: 1. Kustom job - You don' t need a Mekboy Workshop to have a custom job. Or it seems to be so, because:
“ If you’ve not got a Mekboy Workshop, you can still choose a Kustom Job through the use of a Stratagem. So, everybody can have a Souped-up Speshul, some Nitro-powered Squigs or a Forktress.”
2. Big Mek with KFF - CLAN lock
- CLAN lock = no kff for grots?? Because the\ do not benefit from CLAN culture
- no wargear option, just choppa
- no TRANSPORT explanation = KFF do not work in transport
- then KFF Mek has the KFF ability with the same name like MA Big Mek = this new gakky version should be valit also for the MA Big Mek and for Wazboom Blastajet?
Grots have klan keywords but don't benefit from the rules. So they will be affected by the KFF.
You really don't need much wargear on the mek. the fact that he essentially has a free KFF coming in at just 55 is awesome.
I dunno, I rarely put them in vehicles as it stops him healing and it reduces his aura to just the one vehicle
technically he does not have the KFF wargear at all. Just an odd new rule. which also affects units in kombat which is a pretty sizable buff.
Ou, I missed the point with grots, sorry.
With the rest, your' re more or less right except one fact. Some time ago, there used to be KFF Big mek on warbike. Yo you can have a column of trucks and BW etc. And drive rofward under cover of KFF. BikerKFF disappeared, now the kfff in transport disappeare. So no kff for this scenario. I don' t play it, but I see it.
Plus I use a Big Choppa on him like a “surprise” fort hthe enemies that come to my gunline.
On other hand - cheaper and works in melee? Good for me! He' s definitely 55p. Which makes Makari even more useless, because he has no chance to be the cheapest HQ...
The main issue with visions is actual, good targets for the buff. The problem is we have 4 *really* good targets for visions, 3 of which requiring 9+ psychic tests. Targeting a unit of koptas or a single scrapjet will be largely underwhelming.
1) Stompa (non viable)
2) Gorkanaut (shouldn't start on the board)
3) Morkanaut (as some have argued, shouldn't start on the board. This one is probably best Turn 1 though)
4) Gunwagon IF the new Kustom Job gun can shoot twice with periscope, averaging 14 rocket shots a round. [...]
Yes, those are ideal targets and I'd argue that for the one round it's possible a Wazbom blastajet is pretty darn good as well (especially if combined with the LUB strat). But honestly, a lot of people have weirdboys as slot fillers and chucking that psychic power on just about anything will be good. I assume you can do it on a KMK as well (since grots still have the keyword) and that gun is pretty scary on 3's. So maybe you only have one ideal target that you get to use it on for a single round, but the buff is still decent/good on a whole bunch of stuff that you might be able to chuck it on all game. If you manage to get full rerolls from a buggy all game at basically zero cost (since that weirdboy wouldn't be able to do much else and you already have him in the list) then that's still a big win, even if it doesn't provide you with huge damage spikes.
@Jid you mind posting your biker list? I'm theorycrafting a bit and I wanna engineer a list that is not CP dependent closer to the freebooterz list mechanized list I played last year.
Emicrania wrote: @Jid you mind posting your biker list? I'm theorycrafting a bit and I wanna engineer a list that is not CP dependent closer to the freebooterz list mechanized list I played last year.
+ HQ + Big Mek W/ Kustom Force Field: Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord
+ Troops + 10x Gretchin 10x Gretchin 10x Gretchin
+ Heavy Support + 15x Loota Morkanaut: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta, Kustom Mega-zappa, 2x Rokkit Launcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Warbikers Boss Nob: Choppa, Killsaw 11x Warbiker: 11x Stikkbombs
Not happy with the KFF mek, probably will switch him for another warphead to cast warpath and the new power. Note that I build this list before PA was leaked, the lootas are way to use of all those spare CP - probably not going to need them anymore
Jidmah wrote: Screens actually never have been my problem. You can usually drive up to 1.1 in front of a screen and gun them down with dakkaguns to charge what's behind them, and I've also had great success with bombing holes into screens with bommer so I can drive past them in the same movement phase. You also don't really need to 'hope' for trapping either, even if 28" movement+charge isn't enough to catch something, you can still use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem.
Have a look at this picture from one of my games:
Agreed. Out of interest was that Battlewagon on 1 wound or had it sustained 1 wound?
Is it me or does this book give us a reasonable mechanised list?
We have;
Evil Sunz Boomer Gunwagons with the potential for re-rolling all misses.
3+, 5++ Bonebreakers.
Bonebreakers with auto +6 attacks.
Up to 3 jump-shoot-jump Shokkjump dragsters.
Up to 3 Snazzwagons with 15 shots a piece and auto ignore a wound (for 1 CP).
Ten inch range 12 auto hitting skorchas for our KBBs (for 1 CP).
Up to 3 double fighting Scrapjets,
BS4+ Deffdreads/Morkanaut/Gorkanauts.
24 shot Gorkanaut Deffstorm megashoota with BS4+ within 12".
Make any of the above Evil Sunz and attempt a power to have re-rolling all misses, both at range and in combat (require a lot of ORK units nearby though).
Deffdreads that attack again every time they kill a model in cqc.
6++, rerolling 1s, BS3+ Kans.
Auto. Exploding. Planes.
Planes that can drop MW bombs to multiple units and on a 3+ to one of them.
As an Evil Sunz player I feel like this book has almost everything I could ever want (it just misses a way to make Trukks and Warbikers/Nob Bikers useful).
I really don't think our overall power has increased, I don't think this pushes us into competitive territory, but it opens up TONS of options.
I'm just sitting here hoping that GW updates the FW codex soon, I have a supa-kannon I'd like to use and the new ES power actually makes it more tempting. Make it work with a gunwagon and/or the boomboys subkultur and it's a lot more interesting. I'll just run it as da boomer for now I guess..
Can anyone confirm that getting a subkultur actually removes any clan keywords and not just kulturs BTW? I saw someone say that you still have your clan keyword but I assume that's not the case?
Also, AAE, the shokkjump tempramental shokkdrive is the CP strat so you can't Jump-Shoot-Jump with three SJDs. We (as ES players) can do it with two (through that strat and drive-by krumpin') unless I've bungled all this together..
Edit: I'm still salty that the boomdakka snazzwagon gets a KJ that basically a sidegrade. Honestly, would anyone think it's too good if the KJ it got was a normal mek spehsul with 6 extra shots? Making it worse S and AP is really not needed when the gun itself is so wildly mediocre
PiñaColada wrote: Also, AAE, the shokkjump tempramental shokkdrive is the CP strat so you can't Jump-Shoot-Jump with three SJDs. We (as ES players) can do it with two (through that strat and drive-by krumpin') unless I've bungled all this together..
Edit: I'm still salty that the boomdakka snazzwagon gets a KJ that basically a sidegrade. Honestly, would anyone think it's too good if the KJ it got was a normal mek spehsul with 6 extra shots? Making it worse S and AP is really not needed when the gun itself is so wildly mediocre
Ah right you are on the SJDs! Only 2 jump-shoot-jumpers, but that's enough for me!
I need to play with the Snazzwagon (I haven't, yet) but I'm hopeful. Explodes on a 4+. Can mitigate wounds and has an inbuilt -1 to hit. As long as you have other Anti Armour (and we do) it could do some work on chaff.
It's alright, they've made it more durable which is okay but it just never seems to do anything for me.. The KBBs got even tastier though (and I already adore them) so it's easy enough to do it as a count-as KBB if you feel like taking a break from the snazzwagon.
There's just so much fun stuff in this PA, like you I'm unsure how much better my army will be in the end but I'm not saying no to injecting some character back in the ork lists.
Emicrania wrote: @Jid you mind posting your biker list? I'm theorycrafting a bit and I wanna engineer a list that is not CP dependent closer to the freebooterz list mechanized list I played last year.
+ HQ + Big Mek W/ Kustom Force Field: Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord
+ Troops + 10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
+ Heavy Support + 15x Loota
Morkanaut: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta, Kustom Mega-zappa, 2x Rokkit Launcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Warbikers Boss Nob: Choppa, Killsaw
11x Warbiker: 11x Stikkbombs
Not happy with the KFF mek, probably will switch him for another warphead to cast warpath and the new power.
Note that I build this list before PA was leaked, the lootas are way to use of all those spare CP - probably not going to need them anymore
I really like this list and is very close to one I was tinkering yesterday. What would you use instead of Lootas for a long ranger platform? Smashaguns?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps. Guys stay safe out there.
PiñaColada wrote: It's alright, they've made it more durable which is okay but it just never seems to do anything for me.. The KBBs got even tastier though (and I already adore them) so it's easy enough to do it as a count-as KBB if you feel like taking a break from the snazzwagon.
There's just so much fun stuff in this PA, like you I'm unsure how much better my army will be in the end but I'm not saying no to injecting some character back in the ork lists.
The KJ for them is such a side grade though and I wouldnt be tempted to use them just for that, at that point wouldnt you rather spend some extra points on the Dakkajet get 18 shots at 2 higher STR, more accurate, innately tougher with more wounds and harder to hit and can always flyin headbutt. Yeah it competes with the Burna-bommer now but if you wanted some anti chaff why not get a Dakkajet or KBB, or just Shootaboys.... Im really tryna like the BDSW but it needs to either be criminally cheap or just get its gun to damage 2 so it actually has a role against Primaris.
Ive bought its model 4 times but to be used as conversions for dune buggy SJDs. The KJ is just meh, why did it have to loose an AP and STR just to get 6 extra shots... pretty sure against MEQ it just balances out in the end so just save the CP on the KJ and save the pts and get a better unit hahaha!
Jidmah wrote: Screens actually never have been my problem. You can usually drive up to 1.1 in front of a screen and gun them down with dakkaguns to charge what's behind them, and I've also had great success with bombing holes into screens with bommer so I can drive past them in the same movement phase. You also don't really need to 'hope' for trapping either, even if 28" movement+charge isn't enough to catch something, you can still use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem.
Have a look at this picture from one of my games:
Agreed. Out of interest was that Battlewagon on 1 wound or had it sustained 1 wound?
Is it me or does this book give us a reasonable mechanised list?
We have;
Evil Sunz Boomer Gunwagons with the potential for re-rolling all misses.
3+, 5++ Bonebreakers.
Bonebreakers with auto +6 attacks.
Up to 3 jump-shoot-jump Shokkjump dragsters.
Up to 3 Snazzwagons with 15 shots a piece and auto ignore a wound (for 1 CP).
Ten inch range 12 auto hitting skorchas for our KBBs (for 1 CP).
Up to 3 double fighting Scrapjets,
BS4+ Deffdreads/Morkanaut/Gorkanauts.
24 shot Gorkanaut Deffstorm megashoota with BS4+ within 12".
Make any of the above Evil Sunz and attempt a power to have re-rolling all misses, both at range and in combat (require a lot of ORK units nearby though).
Deffdreads that attack again every time they kill a model in cqc.
6++, rerolling 1s, BS3+ Kans.
Auto. Exploding. Planes.
Planes that can drop MW bombs to multiple units and on a 3+ to one of them.
As an Evil Sunz player I feel like this book has almost everything I could ever want (it just misses a way to make Trukks and Warbikers/Nob Bikers useful).
I really don't think our overall power has increased, I don't think this pushes us into competitive territory, but it opens up TONS of options.
This, I love all the options Orks have gotten. I shelved Orks because I wanted to focus on other armies I have but now I got the irresistable urge to build an unassambled Land Raider I still have lying around, Orkify it and stick the unused Rapid Fire Battle Cannon I got with my Imperial Knight to it's front to make a Boomer Gunwagon And make an armored Arachnarok Spider as a Forktress Bonebreaka. Got more than time enough anyway to build multiple armies because my social life got absolutely smashed to bits by the COVID-19 crisis. I just hope these rules are still valid by the time it's safe enough to go into a FLGS and play a game again
Edit: I really wonder why the Snazzwagons' Mek Speshul went from S5 AP-2 to S4 AP-1 for it's Kustom Job though. Sure it's +6 shots but the extra power that gives is completely nullified by giving it a -1 S and AP penalty. Things like Da Boomer literally DOUBLE the firepower of the modified weapon, why can't this be a thing for the poor Snazzwagon? Hope it's just a typo.
PiñaColada wrote: Also, AAE, the shokkjump tempramental shokkdrive is the CP strat so you can't Jump-Shoot-Jump with three SJDs. We (as ES players) can do it with two (through that strat and drive-by krumpin') unless I've bungled all this together..
Edit: I'm still salty that the boomdakka snazzwagon gets a KJ that basically a sidegrade. Honestly, would anyone think it's too good if the KJ it got was a normal mek spehsul with 6 extra shots? Making it worse S and AP is really not needed when the gun itself is so wildly mediocre
Ah right you are on the SJDs! Only 2 jump-shoot-jumpers, but that's enough for me!
I need to play with the Snazzwagon (I haven't, yet) but I'm hopeful. Explodes on a 4+. Can mitigate wounds and has an inbuilt -1 to hit. As long as you have other Anti Armour (and we do) it could do some work on chaff.
I played the Snazzwagons when they first came out and they always felt lacking in the damage department for the cost, then it got a smallish price drop in CA2019 but it wasnt really enough. It needs to be the cheapest of the buggies, like literally the spammiest of buggies. Its just got an identity crisis really, it wants to stick at mid range to use its mekboy speshul and big shoota whilst also benefiting from his -1 to hit but then they gave it burna bottle and a better explode so you want it to be close to then make the most of its wargear and abilities but then its easier to get assaulted and smited which bypasses its -1 to hit, it isnt good in melee at all and all of sudden its then locked in combat doing nothing. Its just too generalised as a unit, its wants to do a bit of everything but doesnt do any of it well. They should of gave it that new Slug Gubbins rule as standard, at 12" it gets +1 to hit with the mekboy speshul as it just vomits dakka then all of a sudden it can be up close and person, then burna bottles should of been a melee profile aswell just to give it some means of chipping its way through combat.
Its actually deceiptively tough out of all the buggies as its getting rid of an extra 16% of shots coming its way, but I wouldnt waste a CP shrugging a single wound as its still gonna die to the rest of the shooting. I would price it at around 60-65pts and buff its gun and do burna bottles a profile for melee. They like setting themselves on fire in the fluff why would you care if the flames lick them in melee. Im hoping CA2020 gives us some rightly justified pts drops across the board. I would put big shootas at 2-3 pts, kustom shootas should be free (just look at assault bolters....), rokkits 8-10pts, skorchas, klaws and saws inline with everyone elses pts costs, boys down a pt and then some more cost reductions across warbikers and vehicles.
Emicrania wrote: @Jid you mind posting your biker list? I'm theorycrafting a bit and I wanna engineer a list that is not CP dependent closer to the freebooterz list mechanized list I played last year.
+ HQ + Big Mek W/ Kustom Force Field: Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord
+ Troops + 10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
+ Heavy Support + 15x Loota
Morkanaut: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta, Kustom Mega-zappa, 2x Rokkit Launcha, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Warbikers Boss Nob: Choppa, Killsaw
11x Warbiker: 11x Stikkbombs
Not happy with the KFF mek, probably will switch him for another warphead to cast warpath and the new power.
Note that I build this list before PA was leaked, the lootas are way to use of all those spare CP - probably not going to need them anymore
Please post the battle report results
To our earlier point, please let me know how the warbikers and Deffkoptas turn out, and if you use the strategem. I'd also be fascinated to see if the new Big Mek W/ KFF is any good with the new rules formula, and the new buggies w/ strategems, if you choose to use them.
I really don't think our overall power has increased, I don't think this pushes us into competitive territory, but it opens up TONS of options.
I would probably add: Killer Kans got a boost (some new tricks), Mega Nobs (if you consider them mech) got an incredible new strategy that really boosts their damage consistency.
The more standard infantry based lists did get some boosts, though. I dunno if its enough to push us back to top 4s all the time again but:
1) Warboss stratagem. Really good. They almost always took a warboss
2) Flash Gits stratagem. Very common unit to show up, +12" so they can stand still (or move and shoot and hit on that first turn).
3) Spanner strat. Not sure if this'll actually show up, but Lootas becoming more consistent is a good thing
4) Tankbustas in general. That subkultur might actually encourage a TB spam we haven't seen. Str 9 AP-3 rockets sounds tasty.
5) New useful psychic powers in ES and DS. You better believe this is going to get abused at top tables.
6) MA Big Mek strat. This guy did show up in quite a few lists, as the Big Mek was in flux. Although maybe not much now with the new datasheet.
7) Grot subkultur. Although less popular than before, 18 mech guns that now have re-roll 1s and 6++ for free?
Trying to think if I missed anything. Most of these are probably minor upgrades (excluding the mek guns and maybe the psychic powers), but it's not nothing.
What I'm interested to see if is mech finally makes an ITC splash. There was that one guy back in November who was actually doing well with a buggy / plane list, and that list has gotten cheaper and a bunch of new gak.
It you are interested in ITC, than board control is the absolute lord of the universe this year. Which means either infantry spam, or fast MSU or DS and redeploy shenanigans.
Orks now have all the tools to completely adapt to the mission and your opponent.
Between stormboyz, deffkopta, tellyporta, da Jump , SJD and so on, we can max out 2/3 secondaries T3 pretty easy and still punch someone hard in the neck.
I'd say we just went from mid tier to bottom top tier.
Guyver 3 wrote: Before I get my head bitten off how much better is the stompa now and will it be worth fielding in strictly non competitive games
I know it’s not competitive or worth taking in tournaments but how good can we make it?
If you want a Stompa to be anywhere near "good" put it in a Stompa Mob, make it a Morks One, give it the Kustom Gatla and Powerfield and thats about it
Doesn't the stompa mob require 3 stompas (impossible at 2k) or a stompa and two kill tanks? Just skip that detachment.
Making it Evil Sunz and giving it "visions in the smoke" for full rerolls seem like the move IMO. Give it the blitza gatler, babysit it with a KFF mek who also has a grot oiler for extra repairs. Be willing to spend CP for more dakka and the patch up strat. Also consider taking the scorched gitbonez for the weirdboy and have him surrounded by boyz/whatever for an easier cast.
I think it could be somewhat okay with all that (in friendlier games) and if you get the psychic power off it might even feel pretty decent?
- KFF Mek has the KFF ability with the same name like MA Big Mek = this new gakky version should be valit also for the MA Big Mek and for Wazboom Blastajet?
The KFFs on wazbom, morkanaut and big mek in mega armor still cover anything, the mega armor one still works in transports that can take someone in mega armor, and they all still don't work in melee. The fact that the new datasheet is a mess and has the same name as those abilities doesn't retroactively change them to be the same mess as the new one.
Nobody even knows which parts of the dumpster fire new datasheet are intended and which aren't. If I was playing any game before the first FAQ I would hope my opponent would agree to just keep using the old index sheet instead because it's such a mess.
Yeah, supreme command is the way to go. If you run it as ES then two of those HQs should be weirdboys with the visions in the smoke power due to the fact that they're probably going to be burning themselves out and the force multiplier is too strong to pass up. Also, chucking warpath on it is probably a decent bet just so you can maximize damage output everywhere.
Look, a stompa with the blitza gatler and full rerolls and more dakka is terrifying. It's not 870 points (or like 1100 considering all the extra things you need) worth of terrifying but it is scary and if you're rolling hot with it then it certainly can delete anything in the game.
- KFF Mek has the KFF ability with the same name like MA Big Mek = this new gakky version should be valit also for the MA Big Mek and for Wazboom Blastajet?
The KFFs on wazbom, morkanaut and big mek in mega armor still cover anything, the mega armor one still works in transports that can take someone in mega armor, and they all still don't work in melee. The fact that the new datasheet is a mess and has the same name as those abilities doesn't retroactively change them to be the same mess as the new one.
Nobody even knows which parts of the dumpster fire new datasheet are intended and which aren't. If I was playing any game before the first FAQ I would hope my opponent would agree to just keep using the old index sheet instead because it's such a mess.
I'm personally waiting until the FAQ on the KFF....
It's either intentional or they made a serious typo from expediency. Either way the KFF rules have to be reconciled.
I don't think it can possibly be intentional that you don't have to pay for the KFF any more. The changes to <klan> and working in melee are more arguable. I think it is also very hard to think they intended to create two different KFFs called the same thing with different abilities based on whether it's on a big mek with normal armor or mega armor, but again...who really knows.
It's just embarrassing on GW's part to have published something like that. Even a tiny bit of proofreading and playtesting by anybody who knew anything about Orks would have flagged it.
What's the email to ask questions about rules / FAQ?
I wanna send in my questions...
1) Does the Gunwagon with the new Kustom Job get to use it with Periscope? (My guess is yes, but RAW it's no right now)
2) If I take the <CLAN> specific psychic power, does warphead allow me to take a 2nd power from the Waaagh Discipline? do the clan specific powers count as Waaagh discipline for rules purposes like the relic?
3) KFF Mek. WTF is going on.
Trying to think of what else is an obvious WTF so far.
tulun wrote: What's the email to ask questions about rules / FAQ?
I wanna send in my questions...
1) Does the Gunwagon with the new Kustom Job get to use it with Periscope? (My guess is yes, but RAW it's no right now)
2) If I take the <CLAN> specific psychic power, does warphead allow me to take a 2nd power from the Waaagh Discipline? do the clan specific powers count as Waaagh discipline for rules purposes like the relic?
3) KFF Mek. WTF is going on.
Trying to think of what else is an obvious WTF so far.
You have the Zagzapp as well, then the crap that the KJ on the BDSW as it must be a typo as its so bad other than that I cant think of any other WTF things except Ghaz and the Makari not working with any Klan Gghaz is in outside of Goffs
Unfortunately I don't believe that the KJ on the boomdakka is a typo, I wouldn't be surprised at all if GW thinks +6 shots and +6" range is worth dropping 1S, 1AP and 1CP on.
Emicrania wrote: The only way the Stompa is """playable""" Is in a supreme ES or BM detachment
Da biggest and da best list:
Spoiler:
Supreme Command(Goff)
Ghazghkull Thrakka
Makari
Deffkilla Wartrike /w Da Lukky Stikk
Nob with Waaagh Banner
Stompa (Mork's One, Tezdreks Stompa Power Field, Blitza-Gatler, 3 rokkits)
Battlaion(Deff Skulls)
SSAG
Kaptin' Badrukk
Mad Dok Grotznik
3x10 Gretchin
Battlaion(Deff Skulls)
SAG SAG 3x10 Gretchin
No need to worry about degrading when you got +2 to hit and are re-rolling ones
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: I really like this list and is very close to one I was tinkering yesterday. What would you use instead of Lootas for a long ranger platform? Smashaguns?
Don't know, high strength, high AP isn't exactly what I'm lacking. Probably going to bring the napalm air wing now. Or maybe more buggies or koptas. Mek guns in general would fit the list quite well, but I don't own any.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps. Guys stay safe out there.
We moved our game to TTS today. Steep learning curve, but better than spreading nurgle's rot.
the problem im running into is ork lists are probably going to have to go one of two ways: mech or inf. Considering how expensive boys are and how easily you die, you need to take at min 90(630 points) and then fill the rest of 3xbat with grots, which is at a min of 180 points (brings the total cost of inf to 810. Add in the 6 HQ tax and you're only left with about ~700 points of flavor. doesn't really feel like much points to allocate to mech that isn't super potent outside of the da boomer wagon (if it can double shoot). So I'm guessing we're either going to go with our classic builds or some list committed to mech , as far as being competitive goes. I just find it hard that an ork mech list would be a high tier contender in the ITC. None of them scream efficient even with the KJs
yukishiro1 wrote: The buggies are a better bet than the bigger vehicles IMO.
idk tbh. the only ones that are decent are the sjd and msj. the KJ and strat for SJD is nice, but at the end of the day the strat only affects one model and you're still paying 100 points for 2 shots at bs4 and the other two that arent getting back into cover are fairly easy to kill as well. the KJ for MSJ is fairly nice, but yeah, getting into melee isn't a priority. Buggies just seem half-baked to me. none of them have any crazy output or durability, yet you're not paying throw-away points for them.
Thayme wrote: Can we have a glossary added to the OP with all of these acronyms?
Apparently dakka mods no longer do that, tried multiple times. Then again MSJ and KJ aren't exactly the commonly used. I see no need for an abbreviation of scrapjet, snazzwagon or kustom job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GreenTidePackers wrote: the problem im running into is ork lists are probably going to have to go one of two ways: mech or inf. Considering how expensive boys are and how easily you die, you need to take at min 90(630 points) and then fill the rest of 3xbat with grots, which is at a min of 180 points (brings the total cost of inf to 810. Add in the 6 HQ tax and you're only left with about ~700 points of flavor. doesn't really feel like much points to allocate to mech that isn't super potent outside of the da boomer wagon (if it can double shoot). So I'm guessing we're either going to go with our classic builds or some list committed to mech , as far as being competitive goes. I just find it hard that an ork mech list would be a high tier contender in the ITC. None of them scream efficient even with the KJs
If you are going mech, you have no other option but to drop boyz. There is no synergy between them and any vehicles.
Jidmah wrote: If you are going mech, you have no other option but to drop boyz. There is no synergy between them and any vehicles.
Indeed, and this is the entire problem of attempting the Evil Sunz psychic power on a Gork/Morkanaut - it's unlikely you have 30 ORK bodies nearby to get the +3 to cast and rolling a 9 with a +1 or less isn't something I want to base a strategy around. More why I'm leaning to Gunwagons, if and only if they can periscope their Boomers. Without that they are unfortunately not good enough.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Indeed, and this is the entire problem of attempting the Evil Sunz psychic power on a Gork/Morkanaut - it's unlikely you have 30 ORK bodies nearby to get the +3 to cast and rolling a 9 with a +1 or less isn't something I want to base a strategy around. More why I'm leaning to Gunwagons, if and only if they can periscope their Boomers. Without that they are unfortunately not good enough.
If da boomer doesn’t get periscope, will you bother with visions?
Drdotts wrote: I’m considering an air wing of pyromaniac Burna-Bommers in my comp list what do you guys think?
If you ever have an issue with single wound high save units then yes, Burna-Bommers are wonderful. Your opponent takes some big meaty units of deathwatch marines with all the trimmings? Suddenly they have less than a third of that and all their support characters are wounded. But besides that rather powerful niche a mix of the other planes with one suicide burna-bomma may have the most killing power.
To our earlier point, please let me know how the warbikers and Deffkoptas turn out, and if you use the strategem. I'd also be fascinated to see if the new Big Mek W/ KFF is any good with the new rules formula, and the new buggies w/ strategems, if you choose to use them.
Sadly, we had to end the game after turn one, since we struggled a lot with the beast that is Tabletop Simulator. The good news is, we could just save the game and will continue at some time in the future. I also didn't use the new book yet, because getting TTS to run adds vast amount of complexity by itself.
Games was vs necrons, Four Pillars, long side wedges, I went first.
I think T1 ran pretty well for me, warbikers tied down a unit of wraiths to keep them away from my stuff and tagged a unit of immortals and scarabs while doing so. They actually killed four wraiths, but two got better (deff skull) Lootas destroyed two doom scythes with just moar dakka, SSAG degraded a doomsday arc, a unit of immortals barely survived getting shot and charged by the trike.
In his turn, after running my mouth about never losing lootas T1, he blasted my lootas off the board, including three units worth of grot shield. Fething tesla immortals. My Morkanaut was truely blessed by Mork. The doomsday ark, the last remaining doom scythe, and some other high damage shots bounced off him, remaining at 18 wounds. My wartrike just barely survives getting shot by warriors and Imotekh, staying at 2 wounds. Imothekh tries to finish the job but takes a killajet to the face and dies. Hilariously, this is the sixth time his Imotekh dies from Overwatch in a game against me. He picks him back up with a stratagem. I also successfully baited a destroyer lord with relic scythe to charge and kill my weird boy. The lord is now sitting right in front of my Morkanaut and a bunch of gretchin. Obviously, my warbikers were wiped out by the four wraiths, but they did their job by preventing them and the scarabs from moving up the board and locked down one unit of immortals in the process.
As he blasted my gretchin off one objective, we both held one and neither got VP. He killed 4 and I killed 2, so it's 2:1 for the Necrons right now.
We both agreed that TTS is a major pain in the rear, and that playing with real miniatures is not only easier, but also more fun. But it is better than not playing or spreading nurgle's rot.
I feel like the new book would have made a huge difference. BS4+ on the naut, +1S for warbikers to wound both the wraiths and the immortals on higher rolls, deff skulls psychic power and gorks roar for the wartrike would already have had more of impact than grot shields and moar dakka on the lootas. If I can replace those with two kustomized gunwagons, I'm going to be a happy camper.
Drdotts wrote: I’m considering an air wing of pyromaniac Burna-Bommers in my comp list what do you guys think?
If you ever have an issue with single wound high save units then yes, Burna-Bommers are wonderful. Your opponent takes some big meaty units of deathwatch marines with all the trimmings? Suddenly they have less than a third of that and all their support characters are wounded. But besides that rather powerful niche a mix of the other planes with one suicide burna-bomma may have the most killing power.
Burna bommers are also decent against primaris units and scouts trying to block your movement as well. pyromaniac bommers are pretty likely to kill two primaris out of a unit of five, and if someone is trying to maximize the use of stratagems, there are units of 10 around as well. Last but not least, dropping a bomb to kill one eliminator is not the worst thing to do.
The utility of being able to deal mortal wounds in the movement phase is not to be underestimate.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Indeed, and this is the entire problem of attempting the Evil Sunz psychic power on a Gork/Morkanaut - it's unlikely you have 30 ORK bodies nearby to get the +3 to cast and rolling a 9 with a +1 or less isn't something I want to base a strategy around. More why I'm leaning to Gunwagons, if and only if they can periscope their Boomers. Without that they are unfortunately not good enough.
If da boomer doesn’t get periscope, will you bother with visions?
I certainly wouldn't think so, I mean I might try it but I'm guessing it's quite underwhelming at least for players such as AAE and myself who like to run pure speed freeks. If it doesn't work with the periscope (which would be crazy because then it's basically the same as a normal killkannon) I might try it in a boomboys detachment with some rokkit koptas and a deepstriking trukk with tankbustas once or twice but I imagine it's not worth it.
cody.d. wrote:
Drdotts wrote: I’m considering an air wing of pyromaniac Burna-Bommers in my comp list what do you guys think?
If you ever have an issue with single wound high save units then yes, Burna-Bommers are wonderful. Your opponent takes some big meaty units of deathwatch marines with all the trimmings? Suddenly they have less than a third of that and all their support characters are wounded. But besides that rather powerful niche a mix of the other planes with one suicide burna-bomma may have the most killing power.
Honestly, I've been using burna-bommas to pretty decent effect against all these frickin' paladin horde lists I've been forced to meet in recent days. Those guys can be so super buffed that getting 5-6MWs (meaning a paladin and change or two paladins dead) is almost as much as the shooting phase itself. Getting a pyromaniaks airwing with burnabommas would obliterate those guys, especially if you're willing to flyin' 'eadbutt with one T1 if the opponent has placed the unit at an angle you'd have to fly off the board T2 after bommin' anyways.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Indeed, and this is the entire problem of attempting the Evil Sunz psychic power on a Gork/Morkanaut - it's unlikely you have 30 ORK bodies nearby to get the +3 to cast and rolling a 9 with a +1 or less isn't something I want to base a strategy around. More why I'm leaning to Gunwagons, if and only if they can periscope their Boomers. Without that they are unfortunately not good enough.
If da boomer doesn’t get periscope, will you bother with visions?
No. I wouldn't take da boomer either since it'd be roughly equivalent to taking a standard periscope Killkannon.
Wouldn't be surprised if GW ruled this way actually.
With every new release I am more and more certain that GW does not have an Ork player on their rule writing team. KFFMek, Ghaz', Makari, Souped up Sheshul, da boomer and periscope interaction, Zhadsnark still not giving waaaaagh to bikers and other odd things just leave me thinking they don't read the Ork rules in all that detail.
If you are going mech, you have no other option but to drop boyz. There is no synergy between them and any vehicles.
I guess then my follow up would be, how does a full mech list compete in the itc. how are they surviving/controling the board/ etc. (ITC purposes)
Don't know about ITC, especially not about their current incarnation. In CA mission, control the board by using kult of speed warbikers supported by wartrike and/or warboss for first turn charges, and then tagging stuff with buggies, koptas or the wartrike after the bikes have been spent. Eventually, you will run out of vehicles, but at that time your opponent should have lost most of his options and gretchin should have secured you a VP lead you can win the game off.
If your opponent is heavily invested in melee, you use the gretchin as a screen instead and devastate them with shooting and counter-charges.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com is the email address to send questions to. Make some noise!
1) Does the Gunwagon with the new Kustom Job get to use it with Periscope? (My guess is yes, but RAW it's no right now)
If you get extremely asinine about it, no it can't. RAI is beyond obvious though (the kind of "If I met an opponent who wouldn't let me use Periscope with Da Boomer I'd pack up my models and leave" obvious).
Jidmah wrote: Isn't there a FAQ regarding replacing weapons with relics somewhere? I remember there being one, but I can't find it. Might be army-specific, too.
It's possible. First time I've seen a question like this pop up though. I always assumed that relics that replace a weapon have the same rules as the weapon they replace besides the new profile and any explicit additional rules said profile provides. So from my POV Da Boomer still has the Killkannon "keyword" and thus can be used with Periscope.
Only exception I've ever seen is that the Contorted Epitome can't use it's 8 additional attacks with the Slothful Claws relic. Which was done for pure balance reasons because the Contorted Epitome would have double the amount of a normal Herald of Slaanesh with the Slothful Claws (the intended target of the relic. Contorted Epitome came out long after the Chaos Daemon codex and thus could not be taken into consideration when writing the rules for the Slothful Claws. So in this case I feel it's justified). This situation is completely different though. Gunwagons and Periscope were available long before the rules for Da Boomer were written and therefore one should assume they were taken into account when deciding how powerful it should be.
Emicrania wrote: The only way the Stompa is """playable""" Is in a supreme ES or BM detachment
Da biggest and da best list:
Spoiler:
Supreme Command(Goff)
Ghazghkull Thrakka
Makari
Deffkilla Wartrike /w Da Lukky Stikk
Nob with Waaagh Banner
Stompa (Mork's One, Tezdreks Stompa Power Field, Blitza-Gatler, 3 rokkits)
Battlaion(Deff Skulls)
SSAG
Kaptin' Badrukk
Mad Dok Grotznik
3x10 Gretchin
Battlaion(Deff Skulls)
SAG SAG 3x10 Gretchin
No need to worry about degrading when you got +2 to hit and are re-rolling ones
Somewhere, sometimes, someone will run this list and the reality will fold onto itself...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: I really like this list and is very close to one I was tinkering yesterday. What would you use instead of Lootas for a long ranger platform? Smashaguns?
Don't know, high strength, high AP isn't exactly what I'm lacking. Probably going to bring the napalm air wing now. Or maybe more buggies or koptas. Mek guns in general would fit the list quite well, but I don't own any.
I was thinking this, airwing pyromaniac and 6/8 CP pregame, depending if you wanna DS the morkanaut or not. 2 Specialist detachment, 1 extra relic, 1 on warboss, 1 on mek, 1 on SJD. This leaves you with 8 CP to do fun stuff.
Spoiler:
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Orks) [21 PL, 396pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Clan Kultur: No Clan
+ Flyer +
Burna-bommer [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer [7 PL, 132pts]: 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps. Guys stay safe out there.
We moved our game to TTS today. Steep learning curve, but better than spreading nurgle's rot.
This is the most sensed thing to do, even if playing orks is a pain in the butt. TTS is not an alternative but a great tool to try out deployment in a vacuum and playtest armies without owning stuffs. Anyhow I think is gonna be used a lot in the near future and i suggest everyone to give it a try.
If you have really run out of videogames you like then yes, play TTS. It is so unwieldy though... I would love a TTS new version much smoother, but hey can't be easy to develop that sort of simulation thing
If the 2week faq says dabooma doesnt work with periscope that is such a middle finger to orks. Finally give us something that is amazing on an otherwise total trash unit and oh wait no you cant do that actually.
I thought from initial reviews the subcultures were on a unit by unit basis, which would have been awesome. Trade the deathskull tag on a unit in a deathskullz detachment to be boombox or the grot kulture. That would have been awesome.
But the entire detachment? I cant even think of how to use any except Tinheads without having a massive drawback of lack of cp for a nonbatt or units that are utterly worthless because of that subculture replacing the normal tag. Not to mention this makes using named characters and the new spells even harder. Wtfgwlol so close to amazing its hilarious.
Soooooo many vehicle lists are gonna pop up now. Almost all of those custom jobs are sexy as hell.
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking this, airwing pyromaniac and 6/8 CP pregame, depending if you wanna DS the morkanaut or not. 2 Specialist detachment, 1 extra relic, 1 on warboss, 1 on mek, 1 on SJD. This leaves you with 8 CP to do fun stuff.
The naut is there to draw fire and provide KFF coverage, plus some anti-tank shots when going first. Putting it in reserve doesn't actually help the army at all. It's also survives T1 surprisingly often in the face of easier to kill buggies everywhere and bikers in their face.
You'd also want to make the warboss a big boss.
Single koptas don't really do anything, I'd just drop them and downgrade the MA mek for another buggy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: If the 2week faq says dabooma doesnt work with periscope that is such a middle finger to orks. Finally give us something that is amazing on an otherwise total trash unit and oh wait no you cant do that actually.
I fully expect that to happen though. It has always been that way.
I fully expect that to happen though. It has always been that way.
Yeah I'm afraid of this as well. It's not useless on a regular battlewagon, as it technically doubles its output.
Not enough to actually use it, of course.
Like the rule in the subkultur for +1 str / AP specifically names Da Boomer. If it was just an "upgraded killkannon" from their POV, why bother mentioning it?
The same people that created the rest of this book also presumably created that embarrassment of a KFF Mek datasheet that is messed up in practically every possible way. I wouldn't assume anything regarding what they intended or didn't intend. It's like trying to interpret a five year old's splash of paint on a paper.
When I wrote my mail to GW I pasted both versions of the rule in there.
In direct comparison, the new rule really reads like someone was trying to write the rule from memory to do it properly later but never came around to fix it.
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking this, airwing pyromaniac and 6/8 CP pregame, depending if you wanna DS the morkanaut or not. 2 Specialist detachment, 1 extra relic, 1 on warboss, 1 on mek, 1 on SJD. This leaves you with 8 CP to do fun stuff.
The naut is there to draw fire and provide KFF coverage, plus some anti-tank shots when going first. Putting it in reserve doesn't actually help the army at all. It's also survives T1 surprisingly often in the face of easier to kill buggies everywhere and bikers in their face.
You'd also want to make the warboss a big boss.
Single koptas don't really do anything, I'd just drop them and downgrade the MA mek for another buggy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: If the 2week faq says dabooma doesnt work with periscope that is such a middle finger to orks. Finally give us something that is amazing on an otherwise total trash unit and oh wait no you cant do that actually.
I fully expect that to happen though. It has always been that way.
As it is now that joke of datasheet means that the kff from the Morkanut would not protect anything outside the Klan. So yeah thats why I didn't pick it, otherwise I would had it in ES and take something better than the mek as hq.
Let's see this faq if they clarify anything...
I skipped the boxset as well. I do want ghaz but it’s not pressing since he mostly for fun. Instead I picked up another box of Gretchin and the sisters of battle terrain. I’ll get PA digital.
I’m going to pick up another Mek gun to have 6 magnetized...
I may pick up another scrapjet or dragsta I only have 2 of each just not sure if either is good enough to have 3 of since most of the strats are single units only.
That’s the only shopping list I got from this update.. I only have 7 meganobs and I can see a use for another box of 3 as well but I’m not sure again if thier strat makes them worth going all in.
As it is now that joke of datasheet means that the kff from the Morkanut would not protect anything outside the Klan. So yeah thats why I didn't pick it, otherwise I would had it in ES and take something better than the mek as hq.
Let's see this faq if they clarify anything...
No, I don't think it does mean that. The dumpster fire Big Mek with KFF datasheet only impacts the (non-mega-armor) big mek. It does nothing to the KFF on the wazbom, morka, or Big Mek in Mega Armor. Those all still have the old KFF.
Now presumably GW didn't mean to create two different KFFs...but that's what they've done. Until there's a FAQ there is no reason to start playing any of the other KFFs differently because there's no way to tell how much of the dumpster fire was intended and how much is just a mistake. No reason to start setting all the other dumpsters on fire as well on the theory that well they set the one on fire so that must mean they wanted them all on fire.
Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
tulun wrote: Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
I don't think you can voluntarily destroy a unit outside the strat. If there's no POSSIBLE place it can go, that should work, but that'll be an iffy proposition.
JNAProductions wrote: I don't think you can voluntarily destroy a unit outside the strat. If there's no POSSIBLE place it can go, that should work, but that'll be an iffy proposition.
With a 40" move and a limited 90 degree turn, it should be very easy to set that up, actually.
It's potentially playable around anyway, but just kind of hilarious.
I think that if you are forced to move off the battleground, at very best, you interpret it as being destroyed at the point it moves off and rolling for the explosion there. I don't think there's really any way to argue it's destroyed at its current location.
That's a real salty move TBH, but yeah I'd argue it would explode at the edge of board/off the board.
Also, what is the wording on when a flyer moves off the board? Because the explode rule happens if it's reduced to 0 wounds and I'm guessing the flier is slain if it flies off. Now in most cases I'd say that a vehicle that is slain (ie not strictly reduced to 0 wounds) should of course still explode but this whole scenario just feels like something that'll cause way more grief than it's worth.
I wouldn't want to be known as a bad sport just to get some MWs in at a game that one time
This is the rule from the primer:
"Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move
characteristic consisting of two values.
The first is the model’s minimum speed
– in the Movement phase, all parts of
the model’s base must end the move at
least that far from where they started.
The second is its maximum speed – no
part of the model’s base can be moved
further than this. If a model cannot make
its minimum move, or is forced to move
off the battlefield because of its minimum
speed, it is destroyed and removed from
the battlefield – the model has either
stalled and crashed or been forced to
abandon the battle."
Nothing says it has to make a move, just that is is destroyed. Destroyed and slain are not the same thing.
I agree on salty, though. This is some jank tech that would probably be nerfed.
Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move
characteristic consisting of two values.
The first is the model’s minimum speed
– in the Movement phase, all parts of
the model’s base must end the move at
least that far from where they started.
The second is its maximum speed – no
part of the model’s base can be moved
further than this. If a model cannot make
its minimum move, or is forced to move
off the battlefield because of its minimum
speed, it is destroyed and removed from
the battlefield – the model has either
stalled and crashed or been forced to
abandon the battle.
Crash and Burn: If this model is reduced to 0 wounds,
roll a D6 before removing it from the battlefield. On a
4+ it crashes in a fiery explosion, and each unit within 6"
suffers 3 mortal wounds.
I think it is arguable either way whether being "destroyed and removed" is the same as being "reduced to 0 wounds," but either way, it would presumably happen where it moves off the table, not at its current location.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The minimum move rule itself says it has to move if it can. There's two parts to it - (1) if it can't move, and (2) if moving it takes it off the table. If it can move, it has to move, even if that move takes it off the table. Then, at best, it's destroyed at the point it moves off.
Not being able to move at all would be like if there is literally no place on the table you can place the model within its allowable movement, and you also can't move it off the table. Then arguably it would blow up where it is. But this isn't that situation.
tulun wrote: Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
Well, no. First of all 2) is not going to happen, usually the enemy moves everything out of the blast zone and then takes them down with bolters, every pistol they have and krak grenades.
3) You cannot chose to move less than the minimum for any reason. Must move that distance if possible in any way. Not being able to move minimum distance usually only happens when you are facing a large horde army and there is no space on the board to sit down your plane.
4) Having your wounds reduced to 0 causes your model to be destroyed, but there is no reason to assume it also works the other way around. Nothing prevents a model from being destroyed despite having wounds left.
Jidmah wrote: The sad truth is that the best course of action would be not buying new Ghaz at all.
They need to realize that writing shoddy rules like this can break a beautiful models' back and ruin all the work their marketing has put into hyping it up.
It really feels like they are afraid of making orks (or any other xenos) too good, while they have no fears in that regard whatsoever when designing marines.
Exactly this. When Girlyman came out he was OP as all hell, when the first iterations of SM's came out from psychic awakening...same thing. When was the last time Orkz were so OP that GW had to rush out a FAQ to fix the power imbalance?
flandarz wrote: Let's be real: the box set Ghaz is a part of is gonna sell well. Even if no Ork players buy it, we're outnumbered heavily by Marine players and they're definitely gonna pick it up.
Then that's a cheap Thrakka+MANz on ebay for me. I win either way
That is what I will be doing. Going to be trolling ebay for awhile to finally build up my collection of meganobz which at the moment amounts to....5.
2 CP Unstoppable Momentum
Use this stratagem in your Charge when an ORK unit from your army has finished a charge move and dealt one or more mortal wounds to an enemy unit. If that ORK unit is no longer within 1" of an enemy unit, it can immediately be chosen to charge with again.
Combine that with ramming speed and the Scrapjet and you can get a TON of mortal wounds on the same unit.
I dunno, I don't think 2CP for another 4+ chance at mortal wounds is a great trade. It seems like that strat is only in there to give you a way to still make it into combat even if your MWs knock you out of 1 inch. It's more something you do because you have to, not because you actually want to.
The one time it's legitimately great is if your MWs actually destroy the unit you were charging, and you can then use that to piggyback onto a whole new unit behind it you couldn't get to before.
Deathskull squig buggies with the CP Kustom job and Deathskull Clan power on an enemy unit
Does this makes it passable?
Heavy hits on 4's with 1 lucky re-roll to hit, wounds on a 3+ now with +1 to wound for the spammy shot, at -1 AP, 2d6 shots.
Bitey Squig is now Str 5 AP-4 D2, 2 shots, wounding most infantry on a 2 or 3+.
Boom Squig is Str 6 AP-2, 2d3 shots, wounds T5 and less on a 2+.
It gets an extra die / shot of any of the above hitting on 5's for the regular squig launcha.
I'm not sure it makes it competitive, but I could see that being a fun option if you happen to own one.
yukishiro1 wrote: I dunno, I don't think 2CP for another 4+ chance at mortal wounds is a great trade. It seems like that strat is only in there to give you a way to still make it into combat even if your MWs knock you out of 1 inch. It's more something you do because you have to, not because you actually want to.
The one time it's legitimately great is if your MWs actually destroy the unit you were charging, and you can then use that to piggyback onto a whole new unit behind it you couldn't get to before.
Keep in mind its a 4+ for the scrapjet and a 2+ for the ramming speed strat. So you have a pretty good chance of getting 2D3 more mortal wounds.
Also, on the subkultures not stacking......completely useless. I was really thinking about taking the Grot subkulture for my Mek Gunz, unfortunately i run Freebootas and I rely on those Mek gunz to kill something to set off the +1 BS so my units are more killy. So if the Kultures don't stack then they effectively are no longer freeboota which makes them useless to the rest of my army, and rerolling 1s to hit and a 6+ invuln isn't anything to write home about for kulture buff. If it was in addition I would have used it, now...not so much.
That would be 4cp for 1d3 + 50% of 1d3 more. Rarely going to be worth it. I don't think you get ramming speed for the whole turn, do you? If so, it's better I guess.
tulun wrote: Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
Well, no. First of all 2) is not going to happen, usually the enemy moves everything out of the blast zone and then takes them down with bolters, every pistol they have and krak grenades.
3) You cannot chose to move less than the minimum for any reason. Must move that distance if possible in any way. Not being able to move minimum distance usually only happens when you are facing a large horde army and there is no space on the board to sit down your plane.
4) Having your wounds reduced to 0 causes your model to be destroyed, but there is no reason to assume it also works the other way around. Nothing prevents a model from being destroyed despite having wounds left.
My first thought was the same as you for 2). And 3).
On 4) I believe that if the plane cannot move into a legal position, it is considered destroyed (but it does not move at all).
Edit - The Momentum Stratagem is absolutely a trap unless you need to use it. 2CP is way, waaaaaaaay too much.
Has anyone seen the (embarassing) Goonhammer comparison of Ghaz vs Ragnar? With minimal stratagem spend Ragnar has a similar chance of killing a Knight and blends Primaris. Then there was a comparison between the "Big Killa Boss" (kitted out for melee - Goff, Bike, BKB, KillaKlaw and Brutal But Kunnin') vs the Wolf "Smash Captain". Wolf Captain has a 99.9% chance (with stratagem spend) to 1 shot a Knight..... Big Killa Boss has a 58% chance....
I think the unstoppable momentum strat might be a great way to circumvent screening.
Just thin down some screening guard / scouts with 1-2 models left alive for that 8" charge, then charge with ramming speed, kill the remaining 1-2 models with MW and charge something valuable afterwards.
With two charges and two consolidation moves thats a possible distanz of 44" as Evil Sunz, averaging ~24" charge with ere we go + 2 x 3" consolidation / pile in.
Especially with the large Gorkanaut base you can surf around enemy units like nothing with this.
I see myself using this strat a lot with my Gorka.
Might also work great with the Burna-Wing to thin down the first wave of screening to clear some space for tellyporting.
Also this might be a nice way to deal some MW with a Boosta Blasta / Scrapjet on Primaris units. Just try to get one wound on one of them with shooting and then charge the unit that way so that wounded model is the only one in 1" so the opponent has to take this one down first and you get to charge again. (If you roll poorly for mortal wounds at the first charge.)
On average this will cause 6 MW with spiked ram triggering once and ramming speed triggering twice most of the time.
Actually i was quite sceptical on the Scrapjet KJ at first, but on second thought 1 CP isn`t that much to invest for some possible screwdriving later.
Only problem is, if you pimp 3 Scrapjets you have to place them together which isnt that big a problem for getting 3 dragstas their KJ because they can hide turn 1 and shockjump immediately.
I will not plan around that tactic but it might be a nice backup from time to time.
Unstopable momentum has some serious potential for big charges... deffkilla wartrike moves, boost 6", charges with ramming speed, moves up to 18" (has t ocharge something within 12" but can move around it), deals MW's, left out of combat range, charge again for another up to 18". with perfect rolls that's 56" of movement, with average it's 41" (14"+6"+10.5"+10.5") before consolidating!
that's a whole lot of re-positioning. Shame the wartrike is gak
If there's a "piggyback" unit in a convenient spot, this could get a 'naught or dread a good bit of movement, re-position in a way no opponent would suspect.
some bloke wrote: Unstopable momentum has some serious potential for big charges... deffkilla wartrike moves, boost 6", charges with ramming speed, moves up to 18" (has t ocharge something within 12" but can move around it), deals MW's, left out of combat range, charge again for another up to 18". with perfect rolls that's 56" of movement, with average it's 41" (14"+6"+10.5"+10.5") before consolidating!
that's a whole lot of re-positioning. Shame the wartrike is gak
If there's a "piggyback" unit in a convenient spot, this could get a 'naught or dread a good bit of movement, re-position in a way no opponent would suspect.
Probably optimal on something like a megatrakk. Ramming speed with Megatrakk is two chances to deal mortal wounds. Gork would be great too, of course.
You could also use it to tag something far back with like a Deffkopta.
Just move in 1" to a wounded model or go for something with 1-2 wounds left after shooting.
It`s situational but at least a new tool that might come in handy.
You could also use it to tag something far back with like a Deffkopta.
Yeah, nice trick to keep two scorpius / whirlwinds and the like from shooting, might be cool.
Oh btw for those that have problems to get TTS working, try vassal.
We used it back in the day, its poor graphic in bird perspective but worked like a charm on windows 98 / 2000. Seems like it is still working.
1) Does the Gunwagon with the new Kustom Job get to use it with Periscope? (My guess is yes, but RAW it's no right now)
If you get extremely asinine about it, no it can't. RAI is beyond obvious though (the kind of "If I met an opponent who wouldn't let me use Periscope with Da Boomer I'd pack up my models and leave" obvious).
Jidmah wrote:Isn't there a FAQ regarding replacing weapons with relics somewhere? I remember there being one, but I can't find it. Might be army-specific, too.
There isn't a general rule or FAQ per se, but apart from the Epitome exception (which I didn't know about), GW tends to be pretty consistent (ha!) with the fact that Relics and relic-like upgrade to a weapon retain characteristics and associated rule/stratagem benefits of the original weapon it's based on. There's language about this all over different books and FAQs, just a few examples below:
Vigilus FAQ wrote:
Q: Does the Hammer of Sunderance Relic count as a turret weapon for the purposes of Grinding Advance?
A: Yes.
Maybe the strongest similarity: the HoS replaces a Battlecanon as "Turret Weapon" which made it eligible to double firing at mid-speed. Of course people argued that because the Relic wasn't listed (didn't exist yet) in the Grinding Advance rule as a "Turret Weapon" it could not benefit even though it replaced one. Hence the FAQ.
Sisters Codex wrote:
Bolt, Flame and Melta Weapons Some rules refer to ‘bolt weapons’, ‘flame weapons’ and/or ‘melta weapons’. A bolt weapon is any weapon whose profile includes the word ‘bolt’ (bolt pistol, boltgun, condemnor boltgun, etc.), and any Relic that replaces a bolt weapon (e.g. Annunciation of the Creed). Rules that apply to bolt weapons also apply to the boltgun profile of combi-weapons, and the bolter profile of Relics that replace combi-weapons.
Phoenix Rising wrote:
A shuriken weapon is any weapon whose profile includes the word ‘shuriken’ (shuriken pistol, Avenger shuriken catapult etc.), a scorpion’s claw (shooting) and any Relic that replaces a shuriken weapon (e.g. Kurnous’ Bow).
There's a lot like that. In earlier publications they didn't think to add the precision about Relics, but enough FAQ came up that in recent publications they now explicitly state it every time to save themselves from this kind of debates.
So I fully expect Periscope to work with the relics, it's been RAI on almost all similar cases.
tulun wrote: Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
Well, no. First of all 2) is not going to happen, usually the enemy moves everything out of the blast zone and then takes them down with bolters, every pistol they have and krak grenades.
3) You cannot chose to move less than the minimum for any reason. Must move that distance if possible in any way. Not being able to move minimum distance usually only happens when you are facing a large horde army and there is no space on the board to sit down your plane.
4) Having your wounds reduced to 0 causes your model to be destroyed, but there is no reason to assume it also works the other way around. Nothing prevents a model from being destroyed despite having wounds left.
My first thought was the same as you for 2). And 3).
On 4) I believe that if the plane cannot move into a legal position, it is considered destroyed (but it does not move at all).
Edit - The Momentum Stratagem is absolutely a trap unless you need to use it. 2CP is way, waaaaaaaay too much.
Has anyone seen the (embarassing) Goonhammer comparison of Ghaz vs Ragnar? With minimal stratagem spend Ragnar has a similar chance of killing a Knight and blends Primaris. Then there was a comparison between the "Big Killa Boss" (kitted out for melee - Goff, Bike, BKB, KillaKlaw and Brutal But Kunnin') vs the Wolf "Smash Captain". Wolf Captain has a 99.9% chance (with stratagem spend) to 1 shot a Knight..... Big Killa Boss has a 58% chance....
We got fethed. Again.
Is that including the new boss stratagem and the Fists of Gork spell? The FOG spell is pretty important, the extra attacks and wounding on 2s helps a good bit.
Vigilus FAQ wrote:
Q: Does the Hammer of Sunderance Relic count as a turret weapon for the purposes of Grinding Advance?
A: Yes.
[...]
Maybe the strongest similarity: the HoS replaces a Battlecanon as "Turret Weapon" which made it eligible to double firing at mid-speed. Of course people argued that because the Relic wasn't listed (didn't exist yet) in the Grinding Advance rule as a "Turret Weapon" it could not benefit even though it replaced one. Hence the FAQ.
So I fully expect Periscope to work with the relics, it's been RAI on almost all similar cases.
This was the FAQ I was thinking about! And thanks for the analysis.
Gunwagon + Kustom Job + Visions of Smoke sounds potent. 4d6str 8 AP-2 D2 shots with full re-rolls, half of those hits also explode.
Do More Dakka for the memes and net like ~12 hits on average?
Even without any re-rolls, that's 5 hits on average, which is very nice all by itself.
You can stack that with deff skulls re-rolls, wreckers stratagem and maniacal seizure it can punch quite a hole through something.
You could also just rely on bad moons re-rolling ones, freeboota +1 to hit or +1S -1AP from boom boyz.
In general, Da Boomer on a gunwagon compares well to the same points spend on mek guns, which is really everything we could ask for.
tulun wrote: Something I just heard someone discuss on the Burna Bomber
Flow chart for relevance.
1) Move next to your opponent. First plane blows up re stratagems (that's fine), other 2 do not
2) Next turn, enemy ignores the Burna bomber cause they don't want it to explode in their face.
3) Assuming the burna bomber is still within 6" for the explode, you choose to move and/or advance the model so it moves a minimum of 40" so it would die (Advance adds 20" to the MINIMUM movement and maximum).
4) Getting destroyed is equal to setting wounds to 0.
5) The Burna Bomber blows up on the spot (it can't legally move), thus potentially trigger more mortal wounds on a 4+ right next to the enemy.
Does this work? Does getting destroyed count as having 0 wounds?
Well, no. First of all 2) is not going to happen, usually the enemy moves everything out of the blast zone and then takes them down with bolters, every pistol they have and krak grenades.
3) You cannot chose to move less than the minimum for any reason. Must move that distance if possible in any way. Not being able to move minimum distance usually only happens when you are facing a large horde army and there is no space on the board to sit down your plane.
4) Having your wounds reduced to 0 causes your model to be destroyed, but there is no reason to assume it also works the other way around. Nothing prevents a model from being destroyed despite having wounds left.
My first thought was the same as you for 2). And 3).
On 4) I believe that if the plane cannot move into a legal position, it is considered destroyed (but it does not move at all).
Edit - The Momentum Stratagem is absolutely a trap unless you need to use it. 2CP is way, waaaaaaaay too much.
Has anyone seen the (embarassing) Goonhammer comparison of Ghaz vs Ragnar? With minimal stratagem spend Ragnar has a similar chance of killing a Knight and blends Primaris. Then there was a comparison between the "Big Killa Boss" (kitted out for melee - Goff, Bike, BKB, KillaKlaw and Brutal But Kunnin') vs the Wolf "Smash Captain". Wolf Captain has a 99.9% chance (with stratagem spend) to 1 shot a Knight..... Big Killa Boss has a 58% chance....
We got fethed. Again.
Is that including the new boss stratagem and the Fists of Gork spell? The FOG spell is pretty important, the extra attacks and wounding on 2s helps a good bit.
Grotrebel wrote: I think the unstoppable momentum strat might be a great way to circumvent screening.
Just thin down some screening guard / scouts with 1-2 models left alive for that 8" charge, then charge with ramming speed, kill the remaining 1-2 models with MW and charge something valuable afterwards.
With two charges and two consolidation moves thats a possible distanz of 44" as Evil Sunz, averaging ~24" charge with ere we go + 2 x 3" consolidation / pile in.
Especially with the large Gorkanaut base you can surf around enemy units like nothing with this.
I see myself using this strat a lot with my Gorka.
Might also work great with the Burna-Wing to thin down the first wave of screening to clear some space for tellyporting.
Also this might be a nice way to deal some MW with a Boosta Blasta / Scrapjet on Primaris units. Just try to get one wound on one of them with shooting and then charge the unit that way so that wounded model is the only one in 1" so the opponent has to take this one down first and you get to charge again. (If you roll poorly for mortal wounds at the first charge.)
On average this will cause 6 MW with spiked ram triggering once and ramming speed triggering twice most of the time.
Actually i was quite sceptical on the Scrapjet KJ at first, but on second thought 1 CP isn`t that much to invest for some possible screwdriving later.
Only problem is, if you pimp 3 Scrapjets you have to place them together which isnt that big a problem for getting 3 dragstas their KJ because they can hide turn 1 and shockjump immediately.
I will not plan around that tactic but it might be a nice backup from time to time.
Ace on a scrapjet or a K boosta blasta. 4 CP well spent if you can tag a juicy target and prevent it from shooting, with that second charge. Or kill a key character. I think this sneaky move has potential
Grotrebel wrote: Oh btw for those that have problems to get TTS working, try vassal.
We used it back in the day, its poor graphic in bird perspective but worked like a charm on windows 98 / 2000. Seems like it is still working.
Or if anything, I could slap together a guide explaining how to do most of the things in TTS (it means Tabletop Simulator, for those wondering), and where you can get the best tools.
I've played 40k on TTS for a better part of a year or 2 now, but of course, I don't know how Vassal works, so I can't say much about that :v
addnid wrote: Ace on a scrapjet or a K boosta blasta. 4 CP well spent if you can tag a juicy target and prevent it from shooting, with that second charge. Or kill a key character. I think this sneaky move has potential
You all are severely overestimating that spiked ram
4+ isn't reliable at all, so when you try to assassinate something like a marine or eldar character with it, and you fail the roll, you'll have a buggy that is in no way equipped to handle a well-armored character, which in turn is going to trash you vehicle with a powerfist, witchblade or similar. Happens to me all the time.
In my opinion that stratagem is purely reactive - if you happen to charge something with either the spiked ram, ramming speed or one of the squiggoths and find yourself out of an enemy to fight, use the stratagem to charge something else. It's just too random and too expensive to plan around.
I think it works as a sneaky move that you get to use every once in a while. It's a specialist tool in the toolbox. I often chuck 4-5 spiked ram buggies on something with justa couple of wounds left that I don't want to be alive for the opponents turn. If one of those buggies get that kill and can sneak in a dirty little charge into a backline unit that the opponent hadn't expected and therefore shielded against? Then it's great, otherwise you don't need to be concerned about it
addnid wrote: Ace on a scrapjet or a K boosta blasta. 4 CP well spent if you can tag a juicy target and prevent it from shooting, with that second charge. Or kill a key character. I think this sneaky move has potential
You all are severely overestimating that spiked ram
4+ isn't reliable at all, so when you try to assassinate something like a marine or eldar character with it, and you fail the roll, you'll have a buggy that is in no way equipped to handle a well-armored character, which in turn is going to trash you vehicle with a powerfist, witchblade or similar. Happens to me all the time.
In my opinion that stratagem is purely reactive - if you happen to charge something with either the spiked ram, ramming speed or one of the squiggoths and find yourself out of an enemy to fight, use the stratagem to charge something else. It's just too random and too expensive to plan around.
Well yes, you just attempt, for 2 CP, to charge something, and then hope you succeed in that 4+ roll. If you fail it is fine, you have a 100 (scrapjet) or 80 point (KBoostaBlasta) buggy in contact with an enemy unit, which it will likely erase (because you were going for a unit with 3 wounds left, or less), so you get that killpoint =. So what if you buggy gets blown to bits the turn after ?
It is not a great use of CP unless you can get to a juicy target, and I think the deathskull scrapjet with korscrew K job is really the only one of our units which can reliably kill a moderatly tough target for charge number 2 (1d3 MW from ramming speed on a 2+ roll, 1d3 MW from spiked ram on a 4+ roll, 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls, then another round of 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls thanks to the korkscrew K job).
addnid wrote: Ace on a scrapjet or a K boosta blasta. 4 CP well spent if you can tag a juicy target and prevent it from shooting, with that second charge. Or kill a key character. I think this sneaky move has potential
You all are severely overestimating that spiked ram
4+ isn't reliable at all, so when you try to assassinate something like a marine or eldar character with it, and you fail the roll, you'll have a buggy that is in no way equipped to handle a well-armored character, which in turn is going to trash you vehicle with a powerfist, witchblade or similar. Happens to me all the time.
In my opinion that stratagem is purely reactive - if you happen to charge something with either the spiked ram, ramming speed or one of the squiggoths and find yourself out of an enemy to fight, use the stratagem to charge something else. It's just too random and too expensive to plan around.
Well yes, you just attempt, for 2 CP, to charge something, and then hope you succeed in that 4+ roll. If you fail it is fine, you have a 100 (scrapjet) or 80 point (KBoostaBlasta) buggy in contact with an enemy unit, which it will likely erase (because you were going for a unit with 3 wounds left, or less), so you get that killpoint =. So what if you buggy gets blown to bits the turn after ?
It is not a great use of CP unless you can get to a juicy target, and I think the deathskull scrapjet with korscrew K job is really the only one of our units which can reliably kill a moderatly tough target for charge number 2 (1d3 MW from ramming speed on a 2+ roll, 1d3 MW from spiked ram on a 4+ roll, 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls, then another round of 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls thanks to the korkscrew K job).
My experience is very similar to Jids in that characters you charge generally laugh if you fail your MWs because 4 big choppa(ish) attacks hitting on 4s is pretty weak. SM characters slap you to high heaven without going down. Even Eldar characters get their 4++ and can tank average wounds then either witch blade or Smite you away.
I really don’t think that stratagem is competitive.
addnid wrote: Ace on a scrapjet or a K boosta blasta. 4 CP well spent if you can tag a juicy target and prevent it from shooting, with that second charge. Or kill a key character. I think this sneaky move has potential
You all are severely overestimating that spiked ram
4+ isn't reliable at all, so when you try to assassinate something like a marine or eldar character with it, and you fail the roll, you'll have a buggy that is in no way equipped to handle a well-armored character, which in turn is going to trash you vehicle with a powerfist, witchblade or similar. Happens to me all the time.
In my opinion that stratagem is purely reactive - if you happen to charge something with either the spiked ram, ramming speed or one of the squiggoths and find yourself out of an enemy to fight, use the stratagem to charge something else. It's just too random and too expensive to plan around.
Well yes, you just attempt, for 2 CP, to charge something, and then hope you succeed in that 4+ roll. If you fail it is fine, you have a 100 (scrapjet) or 80 point (KBoostaBlasta) buggy in contact with an enemy unit, which it will likely erase (because you were going for a unit with 3 wounds left, or less), so you get that killpoint =. So what if you buggy gets blown to bits the turn after ?
It is not a great use of CP unless you can get to a juicy target, and I think the deathskull scrapjet with korscrew K job is really the only one of our units which can reliably kill a moderatly tough target for charge number 2 (1d3 MW from ramming speed on a 2+ roll, 1d3 MW from spiked ram on a 4+ roll, 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls, then another round of 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls thanks to the korkscrew K job).
You have all OVERLOOKED the Gargantuan Squiggoth!
On a 2+ that thing does D6 mortal wounds to Everything it successfully charged.
Now it can charge, Mortal Wound kill and then charge and Mortal Woulnd kill some backfield stuff, and then fight them ALL in CC again?
I truly adore my Gargantuan Squiggoth on the charge already but for just 2CP “Buckle up Dorothy, this is going to be a hell of a ride!”
addnid wrote: Well yes, you just attempt, for 2 CP, to charge something, and then hope you succeed in that 4+ roll. If you fail it is fine, you have a 100 (scrapjet) or 80 point (KBoostaBlasta) buggy in contact with an enemy unit, which it will likely erase (because you were going for a unit with 3 wounds left, or less), so you get that killpoint =. So what if you buggy gets blown to bits the turn after ?
The yellow part is what's not working in my experience. The KBB has no close combat weapon, so it will more often than not deal 0 damage to a character with 2+/3+ armor. The Scrapjet is a little better, but will usually just score one unsaved wound, assuming no invulnerable saves. Buggies are crap in combat, the only reason to charge something is to lock it down or if you are desperate for wiping out a unit. You can't just drive about throwing away your buggies as expendable if you want to win with them. At 24" your opponent has to move and use big guns to kill them. Within 12" of most armies(especially marines) you get the full array of grenades, rapid fire guns shooting twice, pistols, flamers and other odd low-range guns thrown at them, which would normally not be able to shoot or at least be a lot less efficient at doing so. Even if it survives all that, most support characters have some sort of melee weapon which does some damage against the T6/4+ profile of a buggy which is no threat to them in combat. If you dive inside the enemy army, you are basically losing your buggy to damage potential which your opponent otherwise wouldn't be able to use, essentially giving them a free kill. When you stay at range, you either force them to commit valuable guns to them or you get another round of shooting.
It is not a great use of CP unless you can get to a juicy target, and I think the deathskull scrapjet with korscrew K job is really the only one of our units which can reliably kill a moderatly tough target for charge number 2 (1d3 MW from ramming speed on a 2+ roll, 1d3 MW from spiked ram on a 4+ roll, 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls, then another round of 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls thanks to the korkscrew K job).
That's barely enough damage to kill a primaris sergeant and will bounce right off anything with an iron halo, 2+ armor or a mark of chaos. Considering that the scrapjet is 100 and the sergeant about 70, I see the korkskrew job as a waste of CP.
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ThorNZ2020 wrote: on a 4+ roll, 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls, then another round of 4 SM sergeant power fist attacks with deathskull rerolls thanks to the korkscrew K job). You have all OVERLOOKED the Gargantuan Squiggoth!
On a 2+ that thing does D6 mortal wounds to Everything it successfully charged.
Now it can charge, Mortal Wound kill and then charge and Mortal Woulnd kill some backfield stuff, and then fight them ALL in CC again?
I truly adore my Gargantuan Squiggoth on the charge already but for just 2CP “Buckle up Dorothy, this is going to be a hell of a ride!”
I have not, I mentioned squiggoths multiple times
Keep in mind that Dorothy needs to kill everything she charged the first time around, since you can only use the stratagem if there is nothing left within 1".
Jidmah, those 2*4 attacks of powerfist with deathskull rerolls plus the MW is waaaay enough to kill any 6 wound character without a 3++
You should indeed not throw away units, but you can trade them efficiently (finishing off a squad and then killing an important support character can be a good trade for example).
But this is like the burna bommer Banzai, we will have to wait and see on the table top to really know.
This is not a close combat friendly edition but players with skill can still make it work on some match ups. It does require testing out a few things though, and against current SM lists it is often not a good idea, and as you say if you go near their support characters they will heroically intervene or just delete you in CC in their turn. 100 point for the scrapjet and 4 CPs is a lot indeed to finish of a squad and kill a support character, but sometimes it's worth it (a chapter master giving full rerolls, or the dark angel ravenwing lieutenant on land speeder with his "ignore movement penalties for heavy weapons" aura).
4*4+ is 2 hits. Re-roll one is 2.5 hits. Wounds most characters on 2+, so 2.09 wounds, re-roll a failed one to go to 2.44. Almost all 6 wound characters have 4++ saves, so 1.22 unsaved wounds. Or, in other words, the most likely outcome is one unsaved wound.
When fighting twice, if you are lucky enough to get 3 unsaved wounds in, there is a good chance of killing that character. But the chance of that happening is less than 50% and therefore not a good decision to make on the tabletop. Also note that pretty much every army has a stratagem to make a character slightly harder to kill.
And there really isn't anything to "wait and see", scrapjets have been they way they are for quite some time now. Keeping them out of fights is the best way to play them, because their shooting is great and their melee is weak and fighting twice doesn't chance that. Krokscrew is very much like buying a wrecking ball for your gunwagon, a PK for your big mek or a killsaw for a pain boy. Don't spend resources on making a unit better at something it didn't do well to begin with.
It's from a GW email sent out, but yeah it's true (including their online store IIRC). Non-GWFLGS can still be open of course but shipping times are going to be increased etc..
Apparently GW completely closed down today. Anything that has been send out will arrive, but I guess it's purely based on luck whether you get Thrakka or a PA.
The "adepticon reveal" they were supposed to do online this weekend is also in serious limbo. There was supposed to be a twitch thing I think and that's most likely out but maybe they just put up an article on WHC.
GW stated that was supposed to be their biggest 40k reveal ever (YMMV how much that's worth) so maybe that's still on but in a more modest capacity? If (big if) there was a new Big Mek with KFF coming you'd think he was going to be revealed then as well.
It's all up in the air right now but it sucks that real life even bleeds into your escapism. Keep working on that pile of shame and stay indoors people
The absolute biggest reason I wont use the charge again strat: dude, we are super cp hungry now. We are going to be burning like 6-7 cp on upgrades. That's my worry is these new character and vehicle boosts are gonna siphon way too much cp
Something I just stumbled upon: If I have a warbiker nob, I can replace the both the slugga and the choppa with a killsaw each for a total of 23 points?
Jidmah wrote: Something I just stumbled upon: If I have a warbiker nob, I can replace the both the slugga and the choppa with a killsaw each for a total of 23 points?
Yep.
I build 2 of my nob bikers with double saw and all my boy-nobs are equipped with 2 saws as well.
23 points for 5 attacks on a boy nob is quite effective and shreds through primaris and cents like nothing with -4 and fixed 2 damage.
Have mobbed up 30+10 boys back when i used to play them more often which gave me 12 saw attacks hitting on 3+ with a banner behind them.
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler
Weirdboy: Warpath, Maniacal Seizure, Warphead (-1 CP)
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
Megatrakk Scrapjet
Shokkjump Dragsta
Morkanaut: Kustom Force Field (Sparkly Bitz -1 CP)
Air Wing Detachment (Pyromaniacs) +1 CP Burna-bommer: Skorcha Missiles, 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer: Skorcha Missiles, 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
Burna-bommer: Skorcha Missiles, 2x Supa Shoota, Twin Big Shoota
This one has 14-9=5 CP, with 2 of those reserved for first turn charges with warbikers. The goal is to blow a hole in your opponent's screen with possibly flying headbut and wildfire and then try to pull of first turn charges with the warbikers, warboss and wartrike on valuable targets, without getting the two bosses killed.
As usual, SSAG, naut, scrapjet and SJD take out hard targets with priority on anti-vehicle capabilities followed by mobility while the KBB and bommers either finish off injured hard targets or clear out infantry, also prioritizing anti-vehicle and then mobility.
Let's make sum noize!
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment(Deathskulls) +5 CP Specialist Detachment: Dread Waaagh!
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler
Warboss on Warbike: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kustom Shoota (Extra Shiny Gubbins -1 CP) (Da Biggest Boss -1 CP)
More conservative list with 14-10=4 CP. The general idea is that warbikers keep your opponent busy for turn one and maybe two, while you shell with guard style. Warbboss and Trike most likely shouldn't be doing turn one charges, so no fancy tires for the boss. The two weird boyz (one freeboota) mess with enemy shooting, counter-charge units and objective grabbers/combo enablers.
As it has a lot more firepower, I don't feel like I need the KBB upgrade as much. Instead I get a second SJD and upgrade those, because the list lacks mobility otherwise.
Jid, I know you don´t play ITC, but do you ever play tournament?
I ask not to be arrogant or superior, I´m just curious to know how would you manage objective grabbing and board control with those lists.
Is so long since i played an army with less than 100 pieces in competitive scene that I really have problem to visualize it
Hmm , not sure I like the idea of blowing all the CP before the game, what about Kustom Ammo for the SSAG? Most of my CP go for that and More Dakka on him.
acme2468 wrote: Hmm , not sure I like the idea of blowing all the CP before the game, what about Kustom Ammo for the SSAG? Most of my CP go for that and More Dakka on him.
Me too, which says a lot how boring has been the latest months.
In an ideal world, I don´t think we should need to invest more than 4CP per game on him. Because we should be able to spend the rest of the Cp on tricks and tools to adapt to the game and make it more flexible.
Which is why this new PA is great. IMHO.
Beside Ghaz, but eh...
Me too, which says a lot how boring has been the latest months.
In an ideal world, I don´t think we should need to invest more than 4CP per game on him. Because we should be able to spend the rest of the Cp on tricks and tools to adapt to the game and make it more flexible.
Which is why this new PA is great. IMHO.
Beside Ghaz, but eh...
Yeah, I think I agree here. I think Orks still live and die on CP -- having some in the back pocket for re-rolls, Kustom Ammo, More Dakka, Orks is never beaten (etc) is key in a lot of matchups.
I think triple bat will be able to be a bit more liberal about what you take, but if you go with Bat, bat, 1 CP detachment, you'll probably still wanna back pocket 8-10 CP in the bank for various stratagems... Sometimes even the *threat* of using a stratagem is enough to make your opponent more conservative. I've had many games where my opponent became more aggressive as soon as I dipped below 2 CP.
Jidmah wrote: 4*4+ is 2 hits. Re-roll one is 2.5 hits. Wounds most characters on 2+, so 2.09 wounds, re-roll a failed one to go to 2.44. Almost all 6 wound characters have 4++ saves, so 1.22 unsaved wounds.
Or, in other words, the most likely outcome is one unsaved wound.
When fighting twice, if you are lucky enough to get 3 unsaved wounds in, there is a good chance of killing that character. But the chance of that happening is less than 50% and therefore not a good decision to make on the tabletop. Also note that pretty much every army has a stratagem to make a character slightly harder to kill.
And there really isn't anything to "wait and see", scrapjets have been they way they are for quite some time now.
Keeping them out of fights is the best way to play them, because their shooting is great and their melee is weak and fighting twice doesn't chance that.
Krokscrew is very much like buying a wrecking ball for your gunwagon, a PK for your big mek or a killsaw for a pain boy. Don't spend resources on making a unit better at something it didn't do well to begin with.
You’re not taking into account Deathskulls rerolls. Again. Ok let’s just agree to disagree hah hah. Just to be be curious what type of Scénario do you play in the tournaments you attend (in Germany right ?) ? ITC ? ETC ? Local tournament variation ? Just curious is all, not trying to be a dick here
Jidmah wrote: 4*4+ is 2 hits. Re-roll one is 2.5 hits. Wounds most characters on 2+, so 2.09 wounds, re-roll a failed one to go to 2.44. Almost all 6 wound characters have 4++ saves, so 1.22 unsaved wounds. Or, in other words, the most likely outcome is one unsaved wound.
When fighting twice, if you are lucky enough to get 3 unsaved wounds in, there is a good chance of killing that character. But the chance of that happening is less than 50% and therefore not a good decision to make on the tabletop. Also note that pretty much every army has a stratagem to make a character slightly harder to kill.
And there really isn't anything to "wait and see", scrapjets have been they way they are for quite some time now.
Keeping them out of fights is the best way to play them, because their shooting is great and their melee is weak and fighting twice doesn't chance that.
Krokscrew is very much like buying a wrecking ball for your gunwagon, a PK for your big mek or a killsaw for a pain boy. Don't spend resources on making a unit better at something it didn't do well to begin with.
You’re not taking into account Deathskulls rerolls. Again. Ok let’s just agree to disagree hah hah
I bolded his math. He did take into account the rerolls.
2 unsaved wounds causing 1d3 damage each with, the deathskulls reroll, means you are getting 5 wounds through. So with the mortal wounds you deal upon the charge you can basically shred 90% of any support characters.
Again not saying it’s worth the cp, just saying that it works. But I will stop with this as I don’t want to be an ass, and if you disagree with me it’s totally fine
I think it's fair to say for 1 CP, doubling the melee output of the unit isn't bad, given it is doubling a unit with the rough equivalent of a power fist.
The main issue is that 1 CP could be spent elsewhere. Scrapjets don't really wanna be in CC, even with this upgrade. I'd rather flat 3 damage from their shooting then them getting stuck in CC. They are opportunistic chargers, they don't really seek it out, and this probably doesn't change that.
Given we just saw something like Jid's list where he went down to 4 useable CP (after first turn zoom up with the bikes), every CP you spend pregame is going to be *really* important. We have to be selective in what we upgrade.
I think I'll play test it for fun, but I think it's probably an okay stratagem and not top tier like some of the other stuff we got.
2 unsaved wounds causing 1d3 damage each with, the deathskulls reroll, means you are getting 5 wounds through. So with the mortal wounds you deal upon the charge you can basically shred 90% of any support characters.
Again not saying it’s worth the cp, just saying that it works. But I will stop with this as I don’t want to be an ass, and if you disagree with me it’s totally fine
Unless I'm missing something the Teleporting Gorkanaut can be 2+ BS
5+ Stock.
4+ Kustom Job +1 BS 3+ Kustom Job fancier gun
2+ Freebooterz was triggered. Do a Dread Waaagh! shoot again. (i mention this as I play Freebooterz a fair bit these days). It's 4 CP (or more, or 3 and the Mekboy shop)?
Situational at best, nauts don't really care about degrading and doubling wounds doesn't bring you up more than one bracket anyways. If you really need 2" more movement for something, I guess you could use this.
Good luck getting back up from that one. Also nice that you don't need to invest any 
Roll a dice to get a random buff which is worse than every other culture you could have picked? Mad indeed.
And make an armored Arachnarok Spider as a Forktress Bonebreaka. Got more than time enough anyway to build multiple armies because my social life got absolutely smashed to bits by the COVID-19 crisis. I just hope these rules are still valid by the time it's safe enough to go into a 
