30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/28 18:54:10
Post by: AWesker1976
 Lynata wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Dawn of War was a RTS set in the 40K universe not a 40K game with RTS traits. You didn't need to have a 40k Loremaster Phd to jump in and start building an army.
Space Marine was a generic 3rd person run and gun adventure game set in the 40K universe, you literally could have cut the Ultramarines completely out of the game and replaced them with any generic army and nothing would be different.
Yet that doesn't really address the question - what corners were cut, meaning which elements of 40k were sacrificed for gameplay there?
(and for the Space Marine game, I'd actually say that the Ultramarines easily qualify as the most fitting Chapter for much of the dialogue, considering how often Brother Whatshisname ranted on about the Codex Astartes saying this and that ... I think it would have been somewhat odd if you'd have played this as, say, a Space Wolf)
Leandros was the most fluffy Ultramarine in the game. This is how the rank and file Ultrasmurfs regard their Holy Codex. Captain Titus was the exception using the Codex as a guidebook instead of holy dogma. He was not a "fluffy" Ultramarine and really could have easily been replaced with anyone and made little difference.
I do not know of specific examples of how they cut corners to make Space Marine more geared towards casual gamers than it was for 40K gamers.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/28 19:46:27
Post by: Enigwolf
Lynata wrote:Enigwolf wrote:This game isn't for Warhammer fans specifically. It's for gamers. If they were gearing this to 40k fans alone, the game wouldn't last long. Even the Dawn of War series and Space Marine had to cut corners to sell it to the public gamer audience.
You sure? I tend to perceive the gaming industry as being largely dominated by some very few AAA-titles that ultimately render 99% of all attempts to topple them futile, resulting in a huge waste of investment by catering not to loyal fans but to the faceless "average gamer" - who then just ends up ignoring your product.
Call me naive, but I'd rather see more high-quality niche games like EVE or Mount & Blade that don't even try to compete with the #1 and instead focus on delivering to a smaller, yet more reliable crowd of long-term fans. What's the point of tapping the 40k IP if you do not intend to market it to 40k fans? If you're relying almost exclusively on gameplay, you don't need an established brand to release a successful title.
My apologies, I wasn't too clear, Melissia's post here is a clearer version of what I was trying to say:
Melissia wrote:I wouldn't suggest trying to cater to the "average gamer", but catering to only the 40k fans is a losing prospect, considering that 40k is a niche market and doesn't always attract the sorts of people who would be in to a competitive shooter. If it was an MMOTBS instead of an MMO3PS, that'd be different.
(and what corners are you referring to in the two examples you mentioned?)
Space Marine, as already mentioned, could be any other generic 3rd person action shooter and it'd be pretty much the same. When I played through it, I literally felt as though it could've been Gears of War with more close combat and I wouldn't have known the difference. And let's be honest, the story wasn't that imaginative either. Also, no one Space Marine should be able to wade through such a huge tide of Orks and then Space Marines (Legion Marines, no less) with such contemptuous ease.
Dawn of War. Let's see, as much as I love both the first and second game, you could tell that the game design was very similar to that of Company of Heroes. This held particularly true in Dawn of War 1. Mechanics like Suppression carried over, which doesn't exist in the table top game. My unit of Khorne Berzerkers shouldn't be pinned down so much to the point where I can't actually charge you. Dawn of War 2 - a lot of weapons were not represented well. Multilasers were basically ineffective at damaging anything that was power-armored and above. Missile launchers don't get the option of frag and krak grenades either. And a Baneblade should seriously have no problems just raping face of an Avatar, Terminators, or just about any unit that was in the game. Tyranids shouldn't be able to function properly well outside of Synapse either (AKA their Stupidity Test in TT).
My point is that there will be units portrayed in games that are completely misrepresentative of what they actually can do in the tabletop because of balance and gameplay.
(All that said, I'm still utterly in love with Dawn of War 2 and still play it regularly.)
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/28 20:50:48
Post by: Lynata
Enigwolf wrote:Space Marine, as already mentioned, could be any other generic 3rd person action shooter and it'd be pretty much the same. When I played through it, I literally felt as though it could've been Gears of War with more close combat and I wouldn't have known the difference. And let's be honest, the story wasn't that imaginative either. Also, no one Space Marine should be able to wade through such a huge tide of Orks and then Space Marines (Legion Marines, no less) with such contemptuous ease.
Hm, we may have different interpretations of what "cutting corners" means. Yes, you could have played "any other generic 3rd person action shooter" without a notable difference in gameplay, yet what does that even mean? You can do the same thing with the tabletop and replace its miniatures with something from a different franchise - and it'd still be "pretty much the same", too.
Aside from 40k's unique atmosphere and style, which is why I think it is so important to adhere to the established background.
For me, "cutting corners" means removing or twisting key elements of the background in order to cater to what the "average gamer" would prefer. And there I'm just not noticing much in either Dawn of War or Space Marine.
Though yes, of course I agree that no one Space Marine should be able to kill that many Orks etc, but I see this as a nod to the legend of the Astartes rather than a neutral/more objective analysis of their capabilities. Similar to how we could complain about the plot armour in a whole lot of novels, movies or other games of many other franchises.
I suppose you could say that they have "cut corners" by implementing a mechanic that allows the player Space Marine to heal himself by "executing" enemies, for without this mechanic (that indeed does not have any basis in the fluff) there would be an increased level of realism that would have seen Titus die before even finishing the first level. Yet this obviously makes for a poor story, and as mentioned just now I wouldn't necessarily agree that this makes the game feel less like 40k.
This also ties into the "balance" thing I mentioned earlier. Some things you just have to accept, but at the same time there are others that just don't need to be. Such as, for example, Space Marine Apothecaries casting heals as a ranged action, which I hope won't become a thing in the MMO. This would be a good example of what *I* mean when I talk of "cutting corners".
On that note, I did remember that I've criticised some of the game's weapons, though that was just nitpicking about minor "errors" (or what I would perceive as such) in a number of visual designs.
Enigwolf wrote:Mechanics like Suppression carried over, which doesn't exist in the table top game.
I'd argue that Suppression = Pinning.
As for Dawn of War 2 - granted, I did not play that one, so I cannot comment on this.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/28 20:53:58
Post by: Enigwolf
Lynata wrote:Enigwolf wrote:Space Marine, as already mentioned, could be any other generic 3rd person action shooter and it'd be pretty much the same. When I played through it, I literally felt as though it could've been Gears of War with more close combat and I wouldn't have known the difference. And let's be honest, the story wasn't that imaginative either. Also, no one Space Marine should be able to wade through such a huge tide of Orks and then Space Marines (Legion Marines, no less) with such contemptuous ease.
Hm, we may have different interpretations of what "cutting corners" means. Yes, you could have played "any other generic 3rd person action shooter" without a notable difference in gameplay, yet what does that even mean? You can do the same thing with the tabletop and replace its miniatures with something from a different franchise - and it'd still be "pretty much the same", too.
Aside from 40k's unique atmosphere and style, which is why I think it is so important to adhere to the established background.
For me, "cutting corners" means removing or twisting key elements of the background in order to cater to what the "average gamer" would prefer. And there I'm just not noticing much in either Dawn of War or Space Marine.
Though yes, of course I agree that no one Space Marine should be able to kill that many Orks etc, but I see this as a nod to the legend of the Astartes rather than a neutral/more objective analysis of their capabilities. Similar to how we could complain about the plot armour in a whole lot of novels, movies or other games of many other franchises.
I suppose you could say that they have "cut corners" by implementing a mechanic that allows the player Space Marine to heal himself by "executing" enemies, for without this mechanic that indeed does not have any basis in the fluff there would be an increased realism that would have seen Titus die before even finishing the first level. Yet this makes for a poor story, and as mentioned just now I wouldn't necessarily agree that this makes the game feel less like 40k.
This ties into the "balance" thing I mentioned earlier. Some things you just have to accept, but there are things that just don't need to be. Such as, for example, Space Marine Apothecaries casting heals as a ranged action, which I hope won't become a thing in the MMO. This would be a good example of what I mean when I think of "cutting corners".
On that note, I did remember that I've criticised some of the game's weapons, though that was just nitpicking about minor "errors" (or what I would perceive as such) in a number of visual designs.
Enigwolf wrote:Mechanics like Suppression carried over, which doesn't exist in the table top game.
I'd argue that Suppression = Pinning.
As for Dawn of War 2 - granted, I did not play that one, so I cannot comment on this.
Yeah, my thoughts are basically the same as yours. I don't like the implementation from a fluff perspective, but I do understand why they had to do it. I was referring more to inaccuracies with the portrayal of things, but I too agree mechanics-wise other stuff like ranged Apoth heals don't make sense. I also do think that Suppression = Pinning, but in DoW2, weapons like Heavy Bolters, Shuricannon Plats, Loota Dakkaguns, and Barbed Stranglers caused Suppression, and these weapons don't have pinning in the TT.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 00:53:07
Post by: DemetriDominov
./facepalm
What are you talking about... the DoW series is a fantastic RTS adaptation of the TT, and SM is a fantastic adaptation of a 40k FPS/TPS. Even the average gamer completely unfamiliar to the lore would get the general idea of a SM if they didn't have so many fan-spanks around belting out how amazingly OP / not OP the SM's are.
Again, 40k's lore is a matter of perspective, there is no single truth that carries through any of it. Therefore, Relic did a fantastic job of portraying what they believed was the fair capabilities of the SM's. On one hand (in DOW) they are formidable warriors, but far from invincible and the SoB (and every other race) can stand toe to toe against them on any day. On the other (Killteam and SM), they are walking gods of battle, crushing foes by the thousands and only matched by their foul brethern. Neither is false, neither is true, for the reality lies somewhere in between on any given day.
Suppression is no different from TT Pinning, and the weapons that caused them mattered only to the game because it'd be difficult to explain why a SM is carrying a friggin Earthshaker on his shoulder. (Please for the love of god somebody model an Angry Marine doing this just to illustrate the point of giving infantry suppression...)
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 01:59:42
Post by: MandalorynOranj
More importantly, imagine how short SM would have been if it was "realistic" to the TT game. Congratulations, 10 orks killed you. And always will. Titus is dead, looks like you lose.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 02:23:32
Post by: JWhex
I would definitely like to know something about character progression and advancement. No quests apparently, but experience points have been mentioned. Is there an experience point penalty for getting killed? I would expect one.
The developers have emphasized that there needs to be an end to a conflict with winners. Likewise there needs to be some achievable progression goals for the characters.
Where a lot of games fall apart is at the end game. With no quests or story line driven missions, "end game" defined as reaching a point were you are just repeating everything is going to arrive very soon.
I would also like to know more about the economy. Aside from mining and other gathering of raw resources, will the game have the equivalent of crafting. Will there be foods, potions, medicines and consumables that players make. Will there be durable goods that players can make?
The requisition point system does not sound like the best way to run an economy because there are different factions. If you can ally with other factions you should be able to trade with them, but requisition points as a basis for trade between different factions is silly.
I am glad that there will be 4 chapters of marines at launch because 10k Dark Angels just does not make any sense. I certainly do not want to see pink rainbow little pony color schemes so I hope the developers do NOT give players an unlimitted palette.
Unlike some others I think the developers have made good choices in the factions. In her blog Melissa complains about the scarcity of games that allow a female character, yet one comes along and she wont shut up about the fact that her own special snowflake group that is as rare as a snowstorm in south Texas isnt represented at launch. Seriously, Mel you should have said something nice about the fact there are playable female characters in the game instead of making snide little remarks in so many of your posts.
In the big scheme of things, Tau, IG, Necrons and Dark Eldar probably should make the cut and be prioritized ahead of the Sisters of Battle. The Sisters are an unknown quantity and it is not clear when if ever they will be revitalized with a relaunch. It makes sense for a faction in this game to be concurrently supported by a decent model range and codex. About the only faction I would put lower on the priority scale than the sisters is the pure chaos demon faction and even with their terribad codex for two versions they are way more popular than the sisters ever were.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 02:32:32
Post by: MandalorynOranj
JWhex wrote:Where a lot of games fall apart is at the end game. With no quests or story line driven missions, "end game" defined as reaching a point were you are just repeating everything is going to arrive very soon.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. It's a (mostly) purely PvP game, it's all endgame content. In terms of progression it seems more CoD than WoW.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 02:49:30
Post by: Melissia
Why would you expect an XP penatly for getting killed?
This is a third-person shooter game, not some crappy grind-tastic MMORPG.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 03:08:38
Post by: DemetriDominov
Agreed MandolrynOranj.
JWhex, most of your questions have already been answered. There is a plot line the players follow that progress the game. However, it is through our PVP interactions driven by the objectives the War Council we elect that sets the stage. We are authors of our endgame content, which is a relief because it means we don't have to farm a Tryannid "Arthus" 700 times to feel as though we're done. Instead, it's War Eternal; meaning the player's get to do whatever they like. We get to defend positions, secure resources, siege enemies, and lay waste to the world we're fighting on. Being deterred by a lack of quest driven objectives is only a reason to despair for an unimaginative person. It's like asking for a dollhouse while sitting in a sandbox, the only reason why anyone would is because they want somebody else to do the creative thinking for them rather than making it part of the experience.
I share some of your questions however, and agree that it was a good decision to not make DA's exclusive.
As for incurring the wrath of Mel, I do not at all share your view of disenfranchising the SoB from the 40k IP even further by not including them at launch. There is room for every race within this game and plenty of awesome things each could do without breaking the game. However, it takes a lot of effort to include everyone in this festival of souls, and if it means waiting a bit longer for some DLC's to come out and crash it (as the dev's have already promised) I feel as though this is ok. I mean we're 2 years out still and it's clear that they want to include everyone as soon as possible. I don't make video games, but including all 12 races: Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, SM, CSM, IG, Traitor Guard, SoB, Ork, Eldar, DE, Demons, (and innumerable Subfactions/Chapters/Warbands - Ad. Mech, Dark Mech, Inquisition, ect.) at launch is difficult, not even Relic was able to do it in any of their games.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 03:15:41
Post by: Lynata
Enigwolf wrote:I also do think that Suppression = Pinning, but in DoW2, weapons like Heavy Bolters, Shuricannon Plats, Loota Dakkaguns, and Barbed Stranglers caused Suppression, and these weapons don't have pinning in the TT.
They can in the Inquisitor RPG. 
Although I'll never cease to argue that the TT and the fluff are connected, the tabletop is an abstraction, and a lot of stuff happens in a single turn - more than, for example, in a round of Inquisitor. So in theory, all those weapons you listed could suppress, but they are not Pinning for the TT rules because they do not "suppress as much" as the guns that actually do have the Pinning quality.
... yeah, yeah, I know. I like making up justifications for that sort of stuff.
DemetriDominov has a point, though - the fluff is a matter of perspective. The only thing that seems to matter to GW, and what should matter to us, is that the unique style and grimdark, yet epic atmosphere of the setting are kept intact. It's quite possible that one cannot quantify this or put this into proper rules, as it really is just a matter of feeling.
And we all have our own thresholds on when that line is crossed, but the developers' intention to keep to TT stats fills me with hope as I see this as the best compromise, and what the hardcore fans are most familiar with.
JWhex wrote:Aside from mining and other gathering of raw resources, will the game have the equivalent of crafting. Will there be foods, potions, medicines and consumables that players make. Will there be durable goods that players can make?
The requisition point system does not sound like the best way to run an economy because there are different factions. If you can ally with other factions you should be able to trade with them, but requisition points as a basis for trade between different factions is silly.
I really hope there will not be consumables. Sure, there are combat drugs and stuff, but I'd really be sceptical about this becoming a "default" thing in the game - which it'd undoubtedly will, if the option is there. The whole topic of "pots" is a bit too WoW'ish for my taste.
As for trading requisition points ... why would this be silly? I'm not actually thinking it would be possibly, but in theory, these points represent nothing but someone's ability to have his requests for stuff confirmed by the people in charge. In a hypothetical trade scenario, these points would represent an undefined type of supplies that would change hands - fuel or raw material, most likely. In terms of background, I really don't think it would be like a Space Marine having some sort of official "requisition point account" in Astartes Bank, where he can write cheques for friends. That's just the interface for you as a player - which brings me back to the topic of abstraction.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 03:20:08
Post by: DemetriDominov
Lynata wrote: ......In theory, these points represent nothing but someone's ability to have his requests for stuff confirmed by the people in charge. In a hypothetical trade scenario, these points would represent an undefined type of supplies that would change hands - fuel or raw material, most likely. In terms of background, I really don't think it would be like a Space Marine having some sort of official "requisition point account" in Astartes Bank, where he can write cheques for friends. That's just the interface for you as a player - which brings me back to the topic of abstraction.
Or you know... he could just get you that chainsword and be like... "Hey, you're really going to question me about this? You know who I am right?"
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 03:21:30
Post by: Melissia
And then get disciplined by his superiors for being criminally insane and not disciplined enough to be a real Astartes.
Not that well see any discipline in this game.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 03:25:33
Post by: DemetriDominov
That gave me a bit of an idea actually.. why not just have requisition be synonymous with Authority? The more you earn through killing, and taking objectives, ect, the more say you have over voting and other things? I mean you can't farm Authority like you can in WoW. You well and truly have to earn it by actually playing the game. Clearly there has to be a cap someplace, but still, it does sound like the beginning of a brainstorm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Melissia wrote:And then get disciplined by his superiors for being criminally insane and not disciplined enough to be a real Astartes.
Not that well see any discipline in this game.
But you know.. somehow it would work incredibly well for a SoB, and IG, and just about everyone else. I mean that rep gain basically gives one de facto power of rank. You may not have the said title of "sergeant", but you have enough rep gain that you can distribute wargear that you have access to, to those under your "Authority". It works. Just saying.
Would anyone else be a plague marine if you could do something similar to this?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 09:26:45
Post by: Sigvatr
I guess the experience system will just work like it does in similar games - reach new level, spend point in a talent tree, get bonusses on certain abilities. Character progression is a must-have in games nowadays.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 11:46:17
Post by: JWhex
It will be interesting to find out if many women end up playing this game. My guess is NO. There have been enough studies based on quantitative data, not armchair speculating about stereotypes to suggest that if you were to design a game specifically so it would NOT appeal to women broadly, this game would be what you are aiming for.
Women comprise about 40% of the video game market and among late teens and early twenties they are a higher percentage.
In one study based on 250 women from Austraila the conclusions matched what earlier industry studies had suggested. Women enjoy games with puzzles and lots of social interaction.
What women preferred in this study was
mental stimulation
creativity
good graphics but "cuteness was not a factor"
Racing games were preferred as well as puzzle games.
What women in the study did not like was the exact type of game being discussed here. GAME DEVELOPERS TAKE NOTE, ABOUT 40% OF VIDEO GAME BUYERS WILL BE TURNED OFF OF THIS GAME.
Quote from article
"When the data was analyzed the ‘Action Games’ (both ‘Action Shooters’ and ‘Action Fighting’) were clearly found to be least preferred by female gamers. Both ‘Action Shooters’ and ‘Action Fighting’ are games that involve a high degree of conflict, violence and destruction. Therefore the fact that female gamers rated them as the least preferred type of video games indicated that these aspects were not wanted in their video games. Furthermore, ‘Military Simulators’ were rated as the lesser preferred type of video game which further indicates women’s dislike for games that involve conflict and excessive competition (the main characteristics of ‘Military Games’). "
When women were asked to rate factors that were important to them for a wide variety of games, violence was at the bottom of the list.
Why this game will NOT have many female users.
1. The fact that this game is going to be mostly a shooter with very little non-violent content means that it will have a very low appeal to most female gamers.
2. The high level of violence and emphasis on gore and blood will repel many women. Not only is it a genre not preferred by women it is the least preferred subgenera of all, "Military Simulators"
3. The various "snuff" emotes where one person is degrading another, ie tea bagging will be a huge turn off to women (and annoying to anyone over age 12)
4. Compared to a MMORPG the social interaction of this game is going to be very weak. This is a major put off for women based on preferences among for various console games compared
5. Based on what the developer said about the look of the Eldar females I think we can expect character models that are over sexualized in body proportions and probably attire. This is a well documented turn off for women players.
Now obviously you cannot make a 40k game without a lot of violence. The thing is, all I see to this game is just violence, war, there is only war, tea bagging, gore, more gore, gore bagging, gut ripping etc etc etc. There really is more to the 40k universe than just war. The problem isnt the game setting, the problem is the EXTREMELY NARROW VISION of this game.
If you see a SoB in this game and she isnt named Melissa you can bet she will be packing a bolter and a Y chromosome.
62518
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 12:52:08
Post by: Ifepy
If you see a SoB in this game and she isnt named Melissa you can bet she will be packing a bolter and a Y chromosome.
 Sisters of battle usually screw up in one way or another anyway.. Would it be cool to have them in game? Yeah it would, i would love to shoot a bolt into a SoB's face then flay the skin and put it on my ceramite However on a serious note Necrons, IG, and Tau should take precedence over the sisters of battle because they have a larger fan base. But ifepy! the IG are no match for an Astartes or Necron in terms of one on one combat. Wouldn't players get angry? That is a good point... The solution? IG NPC's make up the bulk of the imperial guard whilst players can take over other guardsmen nearby when they die... ORRRRR IG regulars are NPC's while the storm troopers are the players also i hate the black legion... Id sooner have the flawless host as the main chapter in the game or renegade Ultramarines then the black legion who are the most cartoony stupid traitors in the whole universe. "I GOT spIKES on MEH iim soo angry ahhhhh we have no depth to us just angry guys with spikes!"
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 14:07:45
Post by: MandalorynOranj
None of these points have anything to do with the matter at hand. They're making a third person shooter, and you're saying they should make an RPG instead. It's one thing to complain about elements of the game, but to say that they should make it an entirely different genre is pretty ridiculous.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 14:09:09
Post by: JWhex
Instead of pounding a square peg into a round hole, making a guardsman competent in hth against a meq, why not just have IG players do what they do in the game, shoot the crap out of people and drive tanks around?
Every faction does not need to be good at hth. Why wouldnt you be able to have guardsman hanging back from the battle line shooting heavy weapons? I suppose putting a guardsman in a sentinel would be a way to increase their survivability in the game and still put them in the scrum line.
Seeing guardsman tearing up marines or eldar in hth is just not going to sustain the immersion of the game for me. I dont have a problem with marines or chaos marines being the equivalent of multiple orks. On the table top IG are my main 40k army but I dont want to see them made into something that they are not for the game.
I do wonder how many guardsman are equal to one ork at this stage of development and how many SoB are the equivalent of a single marine. Certainly these numbers will probably change during development and should be open to change as the game matures and is played.
I am also very curious as to how the developers plan to entice players to use the factions other than the marines and chaos marines. I expect tabletop Ork players to largely embrace their faction because that is just the way many Ork players are, they are about the race more than winning.
If you dont think the MEQs are going to be 10x more popular than the other races your just not being realistic in my opinion. Gamers are smart and they will figure out the absolute best configurations for marines at an early stage and that will become widely known through the forums. The developers have stated they are not worried about balance so much, but they should be concerned about diversity because 90% marine players is not terribly interesting, this circles back to why there does need to be some balance, so people will play all the factions with a decent representation.
Its all well and good to have the goal of many factions but if 90% of your players are only using 2 out of 12 factions, whats the point? Indeed for any faction, if there is not a prospect for a lot of players it is a waste of time developing that faction rather than some other interesting new aspect of the game.
Now say for example you are a new player and know a little bit about 40k. Why would you pick a guardsman in this game, compared to a marine, you have crap armor, crap weapons (if regular trooper), suck at hth combat and have low leadership with no special rules? If you just happen to be fascinated with IG and own 10K worth of models, it isnt a MMORPG type game so your fascination with the IG is not going to carry the day either.
You really have to look at this game from the viewpoint of a competitive, slightly obsessive male gamer because that is going to be 95% or more of the player base. The majority of these players are going to gravitate to the most efficient and strongest faction and you can bet your bottom dollar that is going to be regular and spikey marines. Factions and jobs or w/e that are deemed gimp will be shunned.
The developers have said in no uncertain terms that they are not presently planning to balance the factions and how this can result in anything but a skewed, wildly asymmetrical distribution of players among factions is quite difficult to imagine.
In the future there is only war, but mostly its just marines!
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 14:18:38
Post by: MandalorynOranj
Not necessarily. At least for Eldar, some things they can do to make them strong are translating their high initiative to a higher movement speed to give players an advantage in getting in position and avoiding fire. Making their technology and weapons superior to those of Space Marines (as they are on the table) is another thing, which is balanced by their lower strength and toughness (hit points, presumably) and typically weaker armor. Plus their vehicles are faster and can hover, and hopefully they let them fly to represent that Apoc formation and the fluff that says they can. It's the choice between fast and strong, and in most games I prefer being able to move fast than take a lot of fire.
As for Orks, their aesthetic I think will be enough to carry them for the most part, but also once you advance past Boy they'll be better in cc than marines, as well as probably having lots of advantages for working in large groups to represent Mob Rule so may appeal to more social players. Plus the crazy stuff like Shokk Attack Guns.
I don't see IG working at all unless they are almost exclusively vehicles/artillery. Any special or heavy weapon an IG can have, a SM can too, and if it's just the weapon, why wouldn't you want it on a better platform? But on the other hand, an all-artillery faction would probably be boring to play since there's so much staying in one place, and all-vehicle wouldn't represent the fluff well without lots of NPC foot soldiers.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 14:30:09
Post by: JWhex
 MandalorynOranj wrote:
None of these points have anything to do with the matter at hand. They're making a third person shooter, and you're saying they should make an RPG instead. It's one thing to complain about elements of the game, but to say that they should make it an entirely different genre is pretty ridiculous.
There is no barrier to including elements of an rpg in a shooter centric game.
There is also no reason to have offensive things like tea bagging in a shooter game. That one of the developers actually used the word tea bagging in a live interview, and then defined explicitly to the Russian interviewing him, shows just such an astonishing lack of maturity it was hard to believe. I mean what kind of person in this day and age describes tea bagging while being recorded live on videotape.
There is no requirement for female toons to be over sexualized in a shooter type game
There is NO good reason to make a game that a huge segment of the video game buying public finds to be distasteful and practically loathsome. A segment that is growing in the important 18-25 year old age group as well.
The situation is not that female gamers will not play third person shooters, it is that this game is so narrow in its scope that it really cannot accommodate a large female player base. It emphasizes the things most female players find distasteful but does zero for developing the kinds of activities that female gamers prefer. Clearly, female gamers will tolerate violence in a video game but there is just nothing being offered here except for violence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MandalorynOranj wrote:Not necessarily. At least for Eldar, some things they can do to make them strong are translating their high initiative to a higher movement speed to give players an advantage in getting in position and avoiding fire. Making their technology and weapons superior to those of Space Marines (as they are on the table) is another thing, which is balanced by their lower strength and toughness (hit points, presumably) and typically weaker armor. Plus their vehicles are faster and can hover, and hopefully they let them fly to represent that Apoc formation and the fluff that says they can. It's the choice between fast and strong, and in most games I prefer being able to move fast than take a lot of fire.
As for Orks, their aesthetic I think will be enough to carry them for the most part, but also once you advance past Boy they'll be better in cc than marines, as well as probably having lots of advantages for working in large groups to represent Mob Rule so may appeal to more social players. Plus the crazy stuff like Shokk Attack Guns.
Based on the recorded interview where the developer acted out how they envisioned combat going down I dont see how a little speed would help much. If you didnt see his enthusiastic performance the way combat goes down is that you fire until running out of ammo then run up and hack at each other. Not much chance of avoiding fire with a slight speed advantage.
Given the low average level of immaturity I expect for this game the Eldar faction will suffer from the androgynous appearance of the males. Ironically it will be mostly males playing the female Eldar but I expect a lot of gaybashing and other offensive taunts to be directed to male Eldar players. This will of course have a negative effect on the amount of 13 year old boys that will pick male Eldar.
I agree that the Ork aesthetic will draw in Ork players but that is still a very small percentage of players and many more prefer the marine aesthetic, that is just the reality.
75085
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 15:32:29
Post by: zmalamuth
JWhex wrote: MandalorynOranj wrote:
None of these points have anything to do with the matter at hand. They're making a third person shooter, and you're saying they should make an RPG instead. It's one thing to complain about elements of the game, but to say that they should make it an entirely different genre is pretty ridiculous.
There is no barrier to including elements of an rpg in a shooter centric game.
There is also no reason to have offensive things like tea bagging in a shooter game. That one of the developers actually used the word tea bagging in a live interview, and then defined explicitly to the Russian interviewing him, shows just such an astonishing lack of maturity it was hard to believe. I mean what kind of person in this day and age describes tea bagging while being recorded live on videotape.
There is no requirement for female toons to be over sexualized in a shooter type game
There is NO good reason to make a game that a huge segment of the video game buying public finds to be distasteful and practically loathsome. A segment that is growing in the important 18-25 year old age group as well.
The situation is not that female gamers will not play third person shooters, it is that this game is so narrow in its scope that it really cannot accommodate a large female player base. It emphasizes the things most female players find distasteful but does zero for developing the kinds of activities that female gamers prefer. Clearly, female gamers will tolerate violence in a video game but there is just nothing being offered here except for violence.
Since you are so much concerned about a Female presence in a game, I hear "FarmVille" has a large female audience!
I mean lots of people in this thread, and i must say in many threads that talk about todays MMO-s, bring out one important fact! "Don't Copy WOW" meaning just because it worked in WOW, it doesn't mean it's gonna work in any other MMO.
And i really don't understand why should the game cater to every gamer out there, and why do you think they should build game around some data from a random research?
This is 40k for Emperor's sake, there is no place for housewives that want to grow vegetables, or little kids that wanna ride around on pony-s!
Developers said they are going for Mature rating, and if they manage to end like EVE, with 500K subscribers, and 50-70K players online, with as much as possible grim dark universe, I wouldn't complain!
P.S.
I hear you can find Female in RL in almost every bar, you just need to take that door in your apartment that has "Outside" sign!
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 15:38:41
Post by: DemetriDominov
JWhex wrote: TL: DR version: In the future there is only war, but mostly its just marines! Because game is "skewed" in their favor by being popular.
Doubtful. The Orks not only have thousands of F2P players, they'll also have many MEQ's paying fans of their own, especially as the game evolves. Also, the devs have said there is no barrier between the factions. If these Pay2Win players are so concerned to win all the time, they won't stay on any one faction, they'll flow to whatever faction is winning at the time and use the MEQ's there. JWhex wrote:-What of the new addition factions, why play them?
Because there are fans for every faction. The simplest solution of adding the Tau would have them be ranged equivalent to the Eldar, and the Necrons be slower, more resilient versions of the SM's - (about the same speed and firepower as a Devestator in SM) IG and SoB would to have the IG F2P and the SoB a P2P promotion from them. With thousands of IG, a percentage among them aspiring to become SoB, they'd be exactly like the Orks. Just add the DE as the equivalent to the Eldar and we have every faction in the game, doubled its size, and did it very simply.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 16:37:42
Post by: Sigvatr
Very good post.
And: inb4 Melissia: BUT...BUT...YOU ARE WRONG BECAUZ I SAYZ SO!!111
The 40k MMO is based on a tabletop game that's extremely unpopular among women and it's set in a genre that's extremely unattractive for women. On average of course, YMMV. The actual amount of female players will be tiny compared to male players. What we see here is the usual effect you see on internet forums: there's a very vocal minority and people tend to assume it's a large group represented while in reality, it's not. That does not meant that SoB should not be introduced, in the contrary, they are a part of 40k, but they are one of the least interesting parts number-wise. Nobody plays them, their fluff is terrible (as in getting slaughtered by most other factions in their respective fluff, cue in e.g. Necrons and GK) and they aren't attractive. Their angel-thingies look cool though. My point is: from a rational, economic point of view, introducing popular factions would be a LOT smarter. Cue in Necrons and Imperial Guard.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:02:53
Post by: AWesker1976
Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:17:06
Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:The actual amount of female players will be tiny compared to male players.
Even if this turns out to be true - why the hell would it matter?
Here's a groundbreaking theory: most SoB fans/players are probably male. 
Sigvatr wrote:Nobody plays them, their fluff is terrible (as in getting slaughtered by most other factions in their respective fluff, cue in e.g. Necrons and GK) and they aren't attractive.
Biased nonsense and obviously untrue. But thanks for adding your opinion to the discussion, I guess.
Also, that post now lets me see JWhex's contributions in a different light. At least you're making it easy to sort out the "less objective" points of view. And the irony: you're lashing out at Melissia, not realising that you're behaving exactly the same. 
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:23:16
Post by: Sigvatr
AWesker1976 wrote:Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.
<- Been playing Necrons since 4th 
The only biased part is their looks - I think their regular goons are butt-ugly. The other part: "nobody" doesn't mean "nobody", I referred to them being vastly underplayed. There are multiple reasons for it, but the result is the same: SoB are more of a myth than a regular faction in regards to how many people play them.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:27:19
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
AWesker1976 wrote:Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.
<--- Been playing Necrons since 2004. Your butt hurt sustains me.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:28:55
Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:The only biased part is their looks
And their supposedly "terrible" fluff or the frequency of these "massacres". Though I suppose this may be explained by you just not being as familiar with their background.
Sigvatr wrote:The other part: "nobody" doesn't mean "nobody", I referred to them being vastly underplayed.
Perhaps then you should have said so instead of making your arguments so easy to discard. Also, what is "vastly" for you? Do you actually have any reliable numbers, or are you just making stuff up?
Also, I don't see how the unavailability of their current Codex and the high price of their metal miniatures should affect how many people play them in a videogame where these factors do not apply.
Do you think Sisters were rarely played in Dawn of War? Because I did not get that impression whenever I was in multiplayer.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:31:02
Post by: AWesker1976
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.
<--- Been playing Necrons since 2004.
Your butt hurt sustains me.
Isn't that around the time when rank and file Warriors could destroy even the most powerful armor with their basic kit? How many IG lasgun blasts does it take to wreck a Land Raider?
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:36:25
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
AWesker1976 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Necrons would be better suited for NPCs in my opinion. and let's be honest with each other, Necrons are popular now because the new Codex was written by Mat "overpowered and broken" Ward and can only be beaten if the Necron player is mentally ill.
<--- Been playing Necrons since 2004. Your butt hurt sustains me.
Isn't that around the time when rank and file Warriors could destroy even the most powerful armor with their basic kit? How many IG lasgun blasts does it take to wreck a Land Raider?
Nope, that was around the time necrons were slowly becoming out of date, could be swept easily in combat, had no options to speak of, and relied on one gimmick to kill vehicles which frankly wasn't that reliable. Oh, they also had the oh so brilliant phase out rule.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:51:15
Post by: Sigvatr
Lynata wrote:Sigvatr wrote:The only biased part is their looks
And their supposedly "terrible" fluff or the frequency of these "massacres". Though I suppose this may be explained by you just not being as familiar with their background.
Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered. Apologies if you're new to 40k, those codices have been around for a while. Perhaps then you should have said so instead of making your arguments so easy to discard. Also, what is "vastly" for you? Do you actually have any reliable numbers, or are you just making stuff up?
Check previous post how I refered to them. Data? The most reliable thing we got is tournament data which isn't a viable representation because of their underpoweredness. The next thing are logical assumptions (here: only metal, no codex) and anecdotal experience aka local meta. I can provide data from 4 gaming clubs. 1 SoB player. Also, I don't see how the unavailability of their current Codex and the high price of their metal miniatures should affect how many people play them in a videogame where these factors do not apply.
Indirectly. No popularity, vastly underplayed, less people are familiar with them, less might play them. And just having them because they are female? Don't get sexist, brah!  
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:52:04
Post by: Enigwolf
I quite honestly think that Necrons work as an NPC faction better than 'nids do, for simple mechanics and fluff reasons. If there's enough 'nids to be running around "balancing" all the factions out... Well... Sheesh, you guys should be fleeing off the planet in the face of the Hive Fleet. Furthermore, Shadow of the Warp is going to need to be explained. It also makes more sense for Necrons to appear out of nowhere to harass the back of a faction's territory, since they can fluffily rise out of previously-Necron-free areas, while 'nids... 'nids still need Mycetic Spores to get anywhere since I'm pretty sure that if the extent of the 'nid infestation is that the whole planet were riddled with tunnels, you'd also be wanting to flee, not fight.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:53:32
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Enigwolf wrote:I quite honestly think that Necrons work as an NPC faction better than 'nids do, for simple mechanics and fluff reasons. If there's enough 'nids to be running around "balancing" all the factions out... Well... Sheesh, you guys should be fleeing off the planet in the face of the Hive Fleet. Furthermore, Shadow of the Warp is going to need to be explained.
Yeah, it's going to be hard playing as a killer robot or a lizard bug in a MMO. They would be better as NPC antogonists.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 17:54:14
Post by: AWesker1976
Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:19:34
Post by: Sigvatr
AWesker1976 wrote:Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.
Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:34:08
Post by: Cheesecat
 Sigvatr wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.
Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.
I kind of like the corset look it's pure John Blanche imo.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:35:20
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Cheesecat wrote: Sigvatr wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Speaking of the "looks" of the Sisters, when compared to the model of Eldar Phoenix Lord Jain Zar, the sisters look a lot better.
Looks are entirely subjective though. I like their angel-thingies but their regular troopers with the weird bobcut look terribly trashy.
I kind of like the corset look it's pure John Blanche imo.
Ditto. The hair is fine imo. It just looks like a terrible helmet on the model.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:37:18
Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered.
You'll have to explain how Necrons and GK are "most factions".
And I'm fairly sure I can find you some other races that get killed in these two codices as well.
Sigvatr wrote:I can provide data from 4 gaming clubs. 1 SoB player.
That does seem to be a very low number for your region, I'll give you that. But tell me honestly: was every other available race played by many more players? Eldar, Dark Eldar (before and after their reboot), etc? Because from all I've heard and seen, SoB armies are rare, but they shouldn't be that far off from the rest.
But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.
Sigvatr wrote:Indirectly. No popularity, vastly underplayed, less people are familiar with them, less might play them.
That didn't seem to be a problem for Dawn of War, though, which is a precedent applicable to this situation.
I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played. 
Sigvatr wrote:And just having them because they are female? Don't get sexist, brah!
Apart from the SoB also bringing some other features to the table (angelic design, "Faith" mechanics) ... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:39:36
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Lynata wrote:Sigvatr wrote:Necron codex, GK codex. SoB getting slaughtered.
You'll have to explain how Necrons and GK are "most factions". And I'm fairly sure I can find you some other races that get killed in these two codices as well.
Yep, IG and Space Marines get butchered as well. In the old and the new necron dexes. I'm sure if they ever release a SoB dex, they'll have the Sisters curb stomping everyone else.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:52:49
Post by: Lynata
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm sure if they ever release a SoB dex, they'll have the Sisters curb stomping everyone else.
Ah, there's a fair bit of martyr deaths in their own books as well - sacrificing lives for victory/faith has always been a theme. It's just balanced with kickassery.
And even in the IG Codex you get to hear about how it took so and so many million men to hold that bridge or whatever.
I guess the portrayals are somewhat inconsistent across the board, else something like the Celestial Lions' fate or the Imperial Fists' 85% casualty rate following the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge (for recovering wrecked Rhinos, of all things) would appear in the Marine 'dex ... but instead their books are suspiciously absent of anything but glorious victories. I'm sure this lack of consistency in army portrayal can breed different perceptions amongst the playerbase.
71489
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 18:54:30
Post by: Troike
Lynata wrote:Sigvatr wrote:The only biased part is their looks
And their supposedly "terrible" fluff or the frequency of these "massacres". Though I suppose this may be explained by you just not being as familiar with their background.
I actually saw a good point about this on Tv Tropes today. This is probably partly due to them not recieving proper updates as frequently. See, in an amry's own fluff, said army will usually stomp all other factions that they face, making the other factions appear weak. While other armies couteract this by having their own fluff full of their own stompings, the SoB getting less updates means that they don't massacre other factions as frequently.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 19:04:10
Post by: Melissia
Wow, looks like I really pissed JWrex off.
Well anyway, ignoring the hilarious off topic rant... I'm still probably not going to invest time and money in this game unless Sisters of IG are in it, quite simply because I have no desire to roleplay as a dude for hundreds of hours at a time. Already done that due to the past history of the gaming industry as a whole; not interested in doing it again.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 19:11:27
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote:Wow, looks like I really pissed JWrex off.
Well anyway, ignoring the hilarious off topic rant... I'm still probably not going to invest time and money in this game unless Sisters of IG are in it, quite simply because I have no desire to roleplay as a dude for hundreds of hours at a time. Already done that due to the past history of the gaming industry as a whole; not interested in doing it again.
You could play as female eldar or do you not like space elves?
6646
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 19:18:32
Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I'd like to remind everyone to be aware of rule one please folks, some of you are awfully close to the line in here, and this thread is getting it a fair number of reports. So lets all try to remember we are adults here, or at least do our best to act like it. If you feel like you are replying while annoyed or angry, best bet is to take a step back and find five mins to relax.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 19:22:01
Post by: Melissia
My reasons for not liking that I'll PM you to keep this on topic. I PMed Miguel the same general message a while back, I should note, but I don't know if he checks his PMs.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 19:51:46
Post by: Enigwolf
Melissia wrote:My reasons for not liking that I'll PM you to keep this on topic.
I PMed Miguel the same general message a while back, I should note, but I don't know if he checks his PMs.
Could you shoot me a copy of that PM too? I've been mostly stalking this thread quietly and am curious to know your reasons.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 21:23:40
Post by: The Dark Apostle
Me too, why not eldar, does it have to be SoB?
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 21:28:35
Post by: Melissia
I PMed both of you. Suffice it to say, I just don't want this thread derailed in to that kind of a discussion. I doubt the mods would appreciate it either. So let's focus on the game instead.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 21:32:07
Post by: Enigwolf
The Independent Characters did an interview with the guys on the latest podcast that they have. I'm going to listen to it tomorrow and post if I learn anything that we don't already know.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/29 21:49:07
Post by: Sigvatr
Lynata wrote: But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.
Well, it's not just my personal meta. I heavily doubt the overall spread of SoB is much different in most other metas, even cross-continent. The main reason is the cost - you can't even get Sisters for cheap at ebay since they are fully made of metal. And yeah, with their current "codex", they really suck. No pun intended. I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played.
Haha, yeah, I remember that too. People at Relic's forums claiming that they just invented a new faction to draw the female audience in Got any input on player spread in regards to SoB? Can't recall seeing anything about it, ever. ... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.
Haha, no way I would seriously make such a claim, hence the smileys. I was alluding to certain other members in here who frequently do so Plus: the game already has female characters confirmed. What I am honestly interested in, however: What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction? ...or, to be more precise: Why should SoB be prioritized over far more popular factions?
50724
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 02:54:47
Post by: orkybenji
I am a male and I would enjoy playing as a SoB. I think it's important to have female characters even if female gamers aren't a target demographic.
75022
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 03:07:13
Post by: Vuiet
Sigvatr wrote: Lynata wrote:
But that's the problem with anecdotal evidence, I guess. We only see what happens in our immediate vicinity. I can at least see better why you believe that nobody plays them now.
Well, it's not just my personal meta. I heavily doubt the overall spread of SoB is much different in most other metas, even cross-continent. The main reason is the cost - you can't even get Sisters for cheap at ebay since they are fully made of metal. And yeah, with their current "codex", they really suck. No pun intended.
I remember that a lot of people actually thought that Relic invented them for this game, but that didn't stop this army from getting played.
Haha, yeah, I remember that too. People at Relic's forums claiming that they just invented a new faction to draw the female audience in
Got any input on player spread in regards to SoB? Can't recall seeing anything about it, ever.
... let me get this straight: you think it'd be "sexist" to add options for female characters to a game? That's a rather weird kind of logic to apply.
Haha, no way I would seriously make such a claim, hence the smileys. I was alluding to certain other members in here who frequently do so
Plus: the game already has female characters confirmed.
What I am honestly interested in, however:
What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction?
...or, to be more precise:
Why should SoB be prioritized over far more popular factions?
I can see why some people are saying that. As an MMO, there has to be several options from which to choose and I'm not okay with allowing the female playerbase to choose between Eldar and...well, moar Eldar. As much as I hate lore spoiling and anything of the sort, it's still an MMO and all the other things can be sorted out after it gets a minimum fanbase. Whereas, if some people don't want to play the game because they don't identify with anything in it, it could hurt things on the long run. Hell, I'm a DE fan myself (in case it wasn't obvious from the sig and avatar) and I don't like the fact that they're not there at launch, especially since their popularity grew with the relaunch of the Codex, but I like normal Eldar too, so, for me, it's fine. However, as much as you'd like to rage around that your fav race isn't in the game, you have to think objectively: launching the game with all the races will take precious time from developing other features of the game properly. As someone previously stated, not even THQ launched with all the stuff at first and the other races came only with SS.
Since then, all we got were SM, SM and even more SMs...we get it, in the grimdark future of WH40K, there is only war and that war is lead by marines as its spearhead. But, the fact is (and I could never understand why people like them so much) that Marines are BORING, at least for me. Sure, there are exceptions, such as your not so average Chapter like Blood Angels with their Black Rage squadrons, Salamanders with meltas, flamethrowers and reptilian theme, Grey Knights, GW etc, but most of the others are plain and boring. Mostly same weapons, same tactics, same looks. And that goes for CSM as well, unless we're talking about Legions that are dedicated to a certain Chaos Deity or the ones that are renegades (again, subjective PoV here). Since SS, we've only had games, movies, and whatnot that have the Marines as their main protagonists, usually fighting CSM and all of them ending in killing a demon lord. What's more, even the Chapters/Legions were only represented by Khornates and the almighty champions of justice and mundane: the Ultrasmurfs.
In a world so diverse and branching as WH40K, ofc most people would like to associate themselves with a hulking beast of several feet that has the power to rip an Ork in half with his bare hands and fights either for the Light - SM or Darkness - CSM (major generalization here, to keep the post from spreading even more). So, if, for example, people can only see themselves playing as any of the marines, the others who can't draw any parallel from them towards any other race will likely not play the game in the first place. If marines weren't in the game, it wouldn't be popular with a huge amount of players, TT or not, so, some things must be sacrificed in order to help the game have a start, then more will be added. As much as I hate seeing a Marine on anything related to WH and as sick and tired I am of doing so, I shall grit my teeth and wish Eternal Crusade the best of luck so that, once it has its foundations, it can add more content such as the DE I hope to see. Sadly, not all the people think the same due to several circumstances (speaking of which, Mel, could you PM me with why you do not want to play Eldar, I'm extremely curios as well).
In the end, it's down to realizing that this is a game, moreso, an ONLINE game and not TT, so all the stuff will come in time or it might not even come at all. It all depends on the players, really. And if not having my favorite race in the game since day one offers me a greater chance of having them after the first or second DLC, xpac, w/e, I'm contempt and will gladly await their arrival.
TL;DR: Different people have different ways of thinking including believing that their fav race should be prioritized over others at start without taking into account that without a steady start, it might all crumble and rot away. That's why SoB should be at launch, that's why the same thing is applicable for Crons, Tau, DE, GK and whatever one might have expectations for. It's quite simple
EDIT: as orkybenji said, I'm also interested in SoB because of their mechanics and looks that differ from your average, heavy armored, 3 meter walking tank with a chansword.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 05:01:58
Post by: DemetriDominov
Maybe you should just start another thread Mel as to why you don't like the Eldar.
I too am interested why you are not satisfied with the overly sexualized Eldar Melissia. Would you be if they were more modest, or even ugly? Then again, I've never seen an "ugly" SoB either. Would the Eldar speak to you if they were less of fantasy sex objects as the watered down S&M SoB or is it just fandom of the faction itself? Either in my eyes seems like a legitimate answer and stands upon my (and now a lot of other's) previous point that really nobody in our community will be happy until their favorite faction can beat down the rest of the 12.
Indeed, I'm a male, and I won't be satisfied with this game until I can custom make some IG and go special ops with him. That said, I often play female role playing characters for the sole purpose that people I play against on MMO's tend to rage more when they get crushed by the visual representation of a girl - regardless of who's controlling her.
On the bright side however, I also see a positive side of having only the current factions at launch. That being each will have a well established player base, likely with an elite level of troops iconic to their faction. Adding the IG, SoB, Tau, DE, and the others next wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea because it does the following two things:
1. The four oldest and most iconic races to the IP will be the Kings of the Sandlot, making the other races more appealing because they'll be underdogs and the shiny new toys to players unfamiliar to the game. Those familiar to the game will flock to their favorite race regardless.
2. The political atmosphere of the game will change dramatically. IG, SM, and SoB, pair naturally together. Doing this right away would create a huge imbalance in the game. Remember the argument about every SM fanboi flocking to that corner? Now add me and every other IG fanboi (made unfathomably worse if IG are also F2P), and the fans of SoB, being (hypothetically) all the women who might actually play the game. Doing this at launch would be a nightmare. Waiting even a month to add these factions as DLC would mean that the power of each faction could be up for grabs. Ork, Chaos, or Eldar /ect. players could make an alt on the IG, vote themselves into the war council and make sure that they split the power of the IoM to buy time against the juggernaut that is the 3 race strong IoM. It fits perfectly into the lore, makes an awesome game mechanic and hey, waiting a month playing Orks or something else just means you'll know what you're doing when the DLC comes out.. as well as being able to return the political favor....
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 05:19:17
Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:What I am honestly interested in, however:
What would be your primary reason for SoB being a launch faction?
You should ask other people about that, for I am "honestly biased". Of course my chief reason for wanting to have them is because they're my favourite faction.
That being said, I have a feeling that a lot of posters here would prioritise their favourite faction/s for the same reason, regardless of whether or not they choose to hide it behind other arguments. Thinking about this being a 40k forum with fans who already have a pre-established opinion about the armies, I now am not sure that anyone here can be entirely objective about it. More interesting might be a question like "barring your favourity army, which race would you like to see" ... (for the record, in my case I'd vote Imperial Guard)
Then again, since our preferences would invariably end up influencing what we'll end up playing, I don't even know if it makes sense to argue against this bias.
What I *can* do is present arguments for why the Sisters of Battle could be interesting to "the average gamer", as in, someone who doesn't know much of 40k yet and has no favourite army yet, and as such no established bias that would "taint" their perception of other armies.
In which case I'd point to their gothic/knightly design which is even more "archaic" than that of the Space Marines, the unique effect of their faith that would surely make for some interesting game mechanics, which in turn means a more complex and varied gameplay experience (by normally being somewhat less capable than a Space Marine, but at the same time having the ability to temporarily surpass them with clever use of Acts of Faith), and of course the appeal of basically playing a kickass Jeanne d'Arc kind of heroine with sci-fi power armour and devastating weapons. Mind you, a number of gamers, including (if not mostly) male ones, has come to get bored by the "bald white male" cliché that the Space Marines epitomise. Femshep, Samus Aran, Nilin, Lara Croft all have their own appeal, and I daresay the SoB could profit from it as well.
Note that I never said the Sisters should be a launch faction, though. I'd be as surprised as delighted if they were, but (like I mentioned to Miguel in the e-mail I wrote) I can completely understand why they chose the 4 factions they did. All I'd like to see would be the Sisters and the IG to become playable as soon as possible.
DemetriDominov wrote:Then again, I've never seen an "ugly" SoB either.
I suppose it depends on how we define "ugly", but ...
There is some variance to be found.  I think it depends chiefly on their age, tbh. Your fresh-out-of-the-novitiate rank and file Battle Sister will be 17 to 18 years of age, and look like someone who has been groomed for the job for their entire childhood. The veterans ... not so much. Scars, cybernetic replacements, a more grim facial expression ... and that's before you get granny status like Miss Imperium M39 up there.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 05:44:13
Post by: Melissia
Stop making gak up and claiming that it's true about me. I like Eldar.
As for Marines, yeah, tyhey're boring. Chaos marines are no different, either.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 05:47:19
Post by: DemetriDominov
Variance indeed, that being far less than any other faction in the game lol:
If there was any less variance to the available pictures of the SoB, most people would honestly think that every Sister descends from the Order of Our Martyred Lady. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Stop making gak up and claiming that it's true about me. I like Eldar.
As for Marines, yeah, tyhey're boring. Chaos marines are no different, either.
Not claiming anything is true. Asking a question that has yet to be answered.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 05:52:29
Post by: Melissia
You claimed that I hate eldar. I might grant your request if you retract that claim.
As for GW's stupid treatment of Sisters, that's hardly the fault of the faction . That's the fault of GW being run by people who don't care about the hobby.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:05:22
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:You claimed that I hate eldar. I might respect your request if you retract that claim.
As for GW's stupid treatment of Sisters, that's hardly the fault of the faction . That's the fault of GW being run by people who don't care about the hobby.
Find even an inclination of the word hate in my question and I'll find a gross oversight of my post's intent. I merely asked why you are dissatisfied with the Eldar, why there is little incentive for you to play them, or even not play the game at all if the SoB aren't in it.
I did edit the post to include the first sentence, which is stupid because I remember you actually PMing me about your fondness of Orks (and perhaps the Eldar, I can't remember.. long days at work leave me forgetful and easily agitated.)
As to your second statement, the evidence is clear: if GW really cared they'd actually give the SoB their own codex... their first after something like 15 years...
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:07:08
Post by: Melissia
You really can't comprehend why this: Maybe you should just start another thread Mel as to why you don't like the Eldar.
... is taken as the fallacious loaded question that it is?
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:10:24
Post by: DemetriDominov
Not loaded when I basically paraphrased these exchange of words: Melissia wrote:My reasons for not liking that I'll PM you to keep this on topic. I PMed Miguel the same general message a while back, I should note, but I don't know if he checks his PMs.
And the 3 other people who asked the same question.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:11:36
Post by: Melissia
... is that so? Then we are done here, and I have nothing more that I am willing to say to you. Let's get back on topic. I think someone here was listening to a podcast and was going to give us the big points presented in it, if any?
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:15:41
Post by: Lynata
DemetriDominov wrote:If there was any less variance to the available pictures of the SoB, most people would honestly think that every Sister descends from the Order of Our Martyred Lady.
Most of that is from licensed, i.e. outsourced material, though, and I think one might even be fan-art. The codices themselves are predominantly black&white or greyscale, and one of the few coloured pictures (in addition to the two you posted) even shows us a black Sister, in the Seraphim squad from the Argent Shroud.
Still, a level of "look-samey'ness" is to be expected for the younger rank-and-file Sisters. Giving everyone the same haircut and keeping them at the same level of physical fitness does a lot to unify appearances. Just like in the real world military.
But yeah, I'll never get tired of facepalming at Blanche's high-heeled Sister Gaga either.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:16:47
Post by: Melissia
It's really no different than finding that ninety percent of marines are depicted as Ultramarines. The difference there, I suppose, is that Marines are given seven codices while Sisters are given one sort-of codex.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:27:15
Post by: DemetriDominov
Lynata wrote:DemetriDominov wrote:If there was any less variance to the available pictures of the SoB, most people would honestly think that every Sister descends from the Order of Our Martyred Lady.
Most of that is from licensed, i.e. outsourced material, though, and I think one might even be fan-art. The codices themselves are predominantly black&white or greyscale, and one of the few coloured pictures (in addition to the two you posted) even shows us a black Sister, in the Seraphim squad from the Argent Shroud.
Still, a level of "look-samey'ness" is to be expected for the younger rank-and-file Sisters. Giving everyone the same haircut and keeping them at the same level of physical fitness does a lot to unify appearances. Just like in the real world military.
But yeah, I'll never get tired of facepalming at Blanche's high-heeled Sister Gaga either.
Licensed and outsourced material GW bought to represent its depiction of the SoB, just as it does with virtually every army (it pays artists to make their incredible art). One is fan art, suggesting that even the fans think of the race as a two dimensional army; Either that of Our Martyred Lady, or not. Just another show of how hard the studio stamped its first and only attempt at the race into the non-existent codex. I disagree with Mel on the comparison between Ultramarines and the good ol' Black Red White of OML, but now we're just digging deeper into this thread's grave.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:28:04
Post by: Cheesecat
Lynata wrote:DemetriDominov wrote:If there was any less variance to the available pictures of the SoB, most people would honestly think that every Sister descends from the Order of Our Martyred Lady.
Most of that is from licensed, i.e. outsourced material, though, and I think one might even be fan-art. The codices themselves are predominantly black&white or greyscale, and one of the few coloured pictures (in addition to the two you posted) even shows us a black Sister, in the Seraphim squad from the Argent Shroud.
Still, a level of "look-samey'ness" is to be expected for the younger rank-and-file Sisters. Giving everyone the same haircut and keeping them at the same level of physical fitness does a lot to unify appearances. Just like in the real world military.
But yeah, I'll never get tired of facepalming at Blanche's high-heeled Sister Gaga either.
Man, I love that pic but then again I'm of the opinion that out of all the warhammer artists John Blanche captures the mood and atmosphere of warhammer and warhammer 40K better than anyone else, plus I love seeing goofy/bizarre things crop up in the setting.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:28:37
Post by: Melissia
Indeed, Games Workshop's complete and utter lack of creativity aside... Cheesecat wrote:Man, I love that pic but then again I'm of the opinion that out of all the warhammer artists John Blanche captures the mood and atmosphere of warhammer and warhammer 40K better than anyone else, plus I love seeing goofy/bizarre things crop up in the setting.
I'm of the opinion that out of all Warhammer artists, John Blanche most needs to quit and become a monk and never, ever draw anything ever again. Even his "good" stuff is pretty damned bad.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:30:43
Post by: DemetriDominov
Add Matt Ward and I'll agree with you for once Mel.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:35:47
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote:Indeed, Games Workshop's complete and utter lack of creativity aside...
Cheesecat wrote:Man, I love that pic but then again I'm of the opinion that out of all the warhammer artists John Blanche captures the mood and atmosphere of warhammer and warhammer 40K better than anyone else, plus I love seeing goofy/bizarre things crop up in the setting.
I'm of the opinion that out of all Warhammer artists, John Blanche most needs to quit and become a monk and never, ever draw anything ever again.
Even his "good" stuff is pretty damned bad.
There's more to art than just technical skill, honestly out of all the warhammer artists I think he is the most creative and unique conceptually.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:40:21
Post by: Melissia
I'm not sure I'd use the word creative. Different maybe, but his stuff isn't creative so much as he has his specific kinks and he loves to insert them everywhere he can, and never varies from that.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:44:10
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote:I'm not sure I'd use the word creative. Different maybe, but his stuff isn't creative so much as he has his specific kinks and he loves to insert them everywhere he can, and never varies from that.
Yeah, that is true that he has specific kinks (rough crude look, skulls, limited colour palette, etc) but in comparison to most other fantasy or sci-fi it's still pretty bizarre and distinguished.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:46:24
Post by: Melissia
Cheesecat wrote:Yeah, that is true that he has specific kinks (rough crude look, skulls, limited colour palette, etc)
... absurdly high heels, unnaturally long legs, skin-tight outfits (especially where it makes no sense for them to be skin-tight, like power armor), and probably dozens of other things I could name if I wanted to torment myself by taking a look at his atrocious artwork.
There's many better Warhammer artists.
Namely, all of them.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:47:22
Post by: DemetriDominov
Dunno, Whoever did this: or that incredible work of art involving layered ink splatters to create the best black and white depiction of an Eldar Pysker (indeed one of the greatest pieces of art I have ever seen) deserves more fame and credit to the IP than John and Matt could ever receive. Honestly, if the Devs somehow can replicate that artwork on the Eldar in game somehow, I would literally drop my IG army in a furnace and play Eldar for the rest of my life.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:52:53
Post by: Cheesecat
While on technical level those are much better than John Blanche I still find John Blanche's work much more recognizable, but then again I just love the crudeness, weirdness and gritty feel of John Blanche's it just screams warhammer and warhammer 40K so much to me so I don't think
you're going to convince me.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:54:42
Post by: Melissia
I think it screams less "40k" and more "desperate cry for help", myself.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:55:20
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote: Cheesecat wrote:Yeah, that is true that he has specific kinks (rough crude look, skulls, limited colour palette, etc)
... absurdly high heels, unnaturally long legs, skin-tight outfits (especially where it makes no sense for them to be skin-tight, like power armor), and probably dozens of other things I could name if I wanted to torment myself by taking a look at his atrocious artwork.
There's many better Warhammer artists.
Namely, all of them.
Warhammer and warhammer 40K has always been style over logic and realism that's part of the appeal to the setting.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:56:49
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:I think it screams less " 40k" and more "desperate cry for help", myself.
Lmao
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:57:03
Post by: Melissia
And Blanche's style is not 40ik. Automatically Appended Next Post: That said we're going way, WAY off topic, so I think we should break until we hear something really new
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 06:59:20
Post by: Cheesecat
What do you mean? His art is purely about capturing a specific style (whether that's good or not) rather than thinking about the logic behind it.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:00:59
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:
That said we're going way, WAY off topic, so I think we should break until we hear something really new
Start that other thread.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:03:02
Post by: Melissia
I don't define 40k as bondage fetishism.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:05:08
Post by: Cheesecat
To each their own, I guess.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:05:29
Post by: DemetriDominov
Fair enough. What aren't you satisfied about the Eldar.. the DE not included of course.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:11:13
Post by: Lynata
Personally, I think Blanche has laid some important groundwork by establishing a unique visual style. Other artists may end up crafting superior imagery today, but they are building on the foundation that JB laid out. I just think a lot of the "crazy" wouldn't be around if it weren't for him, and I think 40k would be less rich for it (in terms of unique appearances).
There just are some images which I think should be put to rest rather than get reprinted, 's all.
For SoB, my favourite artist is/was Andrea Uderzo. She has drawn some stuff for FFG lately, too - the Rogue Trader cover is her work.
DemetriDominov wrote:Licensed and outsourced material GW bought to represent its depiction of the SoB, just as it does with virtually every army (it pays artists to make their incredible art).
But the people from the core studio had no say in it. It's like blaming some weird Black Library fluff on GW, as in GW = the Codex writers and game designers.
These licensing deals are handled by entirely different people (which is why the results sometimes look so different - just compare the cover of "Hammer & Anvil" to Codex artwork), and at least one image you posted wasn't even paid for by GW, as in GW = the company, but THQ, who financed the development of DoW Soulstorm.
[edit] Apologies, was still drafting this post as y'all decided to return to the original topic.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:19:20
Post by: DemetriDominov
Well 1; FFG isn't really the same thing as GW in their partnership, and 2: To become an artist for/at GW you have to pitch them an offer through a portfolio. I know, because it's on the same BL site as pitching a novel (which I have done on 3 separate occasions over the past 4 years).
GW has ALL the say in what they print, because they are PAYING people for their talent.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:34:56
Post by: AWesker1976
I think this thread has become lost in the Warp and strayed too far. I vote this thread be closed and a new thread be opened up with the podcast info and nothing save infor on the game or miguel's posts should be allowed.
We can argue/debate art style, the business practices of GW when it comes to the Sisters, wish lists for the game somewhere else.
Or should we just continue here?
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:35:49
Post by: Melissia
That assumes that the podcast has anythign that's actually new...
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:39:30
Post by: AWesker1976
Come now Melissia, don't you wanna hear more about how he likes to teabag folks in vidya gaems?
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:43:19
Post by: Melissia
Personally, if I read him saying "there is only war" again I will ragequit the forum for a few hours to go on a killing spree in X3: Albion Prelude.
5018
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:51:42
Post by: Souleater
Chaos isn't even mentioned in the original RT rulebook...whereas a certain other army is.... 
Still, perhaps they will get Squats...sorry the Demiurg in as first day DLC?
I've played both Sisters and Necron since their first Codex and ED list respectively. I would love to see either of them in the game...but I am concerned that if we end up with too many races in the game the abilities, weapons, etc might start to get diluted. There are obviously a lot of background material and rules to drawn upon.
Is this game going to be each race against all of the others? If it is then population imbalance is going to be a real issue - particularly if people start faction hoping to the winning team. That being the case, single racial factions could be crippled if they are unpopular.
I don't like John Blanche's artwork. Scruffily drawn spikes on everything....
Regarding relative strengths might we need to see some hefty compromises in order to make a workable game? Example, IG vs SM in HtH combat. If Marines get access to Drop Pods, or there are a lot of urban areas that allow jump pack troopers to get into HtH will a good IG player be able to take down an average Assault Marine player? I would hope so as this could reflect the possibility of an IG winning in assault against a Marine.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:52:11
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote:Personally, if I read him saying "there is only war" again I will ragequit the forum for a few hours to go on a killing spree in X3: Albion Prelude.
Lol.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 07:54:35
Post by: DemetriDominov
[ I probably shouldn't have said that lol] : Can only mean one thing... sleep.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 08:18:14
Post by: AWesker1976
 Souleater wrote:
Still, perhaps they will get Squats...sorry the Demiurg in as first day DLC?
Everytime someone mentions.....the small ones, a commissar executes a platoon. IG has it bad enough don't you think?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 09:35:16
Post by: Sigvatr
Lynata wrote:]You should ask other people about that, for I am "honestly biased". Of course my chief reason for wanting to have them is because they're my favourite faction.
Well, that's a perfectly valid reason! One of the main reasons why I want Necrons to be in is because it's the only faction I am interested in. I won't spend a single $ on the game unless I can play as a Necron. Reasons do not have to be objective, they can be fully subjective as well, after all, they are *your* reasons
Then again, since our preferences would invariably end up influencing what we'll end up playing, I don't even know if it makes sense to argue against this bias.
Nope, it doesn't. I like Necrons, you like SoB, both of us want our favorite faction in. The reason I asked is simply because I wanted to know if there were other reasons than personal preference.
Mind you, a number of gamers, including (if not mostly) male ones, has come to get bored by the "bald white male" cliché that the Space Marines epitomise.
Count me in! I HATE 40k for its ridiculous bias on Space Marines. Compare it to WHFB where each factions is a lot different from the other and in 40k, most factions are MEQ which are extremely similar too despite a few different rules and color palettes. Can you spell boring for me? That's because I started Necrons, can't be much more badass.
5018
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 09:58:29
Post by: Souleater
AWesker1976 wrote: Souleater wrote:
Still, perhaps they will get Squats...sorry the Demiurg in as first day DLC?
Everytime someone mentions.....the small ones, a commissar executes a platoon. IG has it bad enough don't you think?
That Deadzone Kickstarter must have been like the Somme for them... :(
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 17:03:15
Post by: Enigwolf
Off it is, the topic is, innit?
299
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:17:42
Post by: Kilkrazy
Well, anyway, back to the topic...
Thank you!
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:32:19
Post by: unmercifulconker
Yay.
When do the weekly newsletters get released? Forgot when the last one was.
Also wonder what this special thing is, im hoping for some concept art, im sorry but im just a sucka for any warhammer 40k art, it is glorious. Also wouldnt mind about new game details though.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:35:15
Post by: Enigwolf
 unmercifulconker wrote:Yay.
When do the weekly newsletters get released? Forgot when the last one was.
Also wonder what this special thing is, im hoping for some concept art, im sorry but im just a sucka for any warhammer 40k art, it is glorious. Also wouldnt mind about new game details though.
It was a Friday.
I've been too lazy to listen to the podcast interview today... I'll get on it tomorrow.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:44:43
Post by: Sigvatr
At this stage of the game, I'd not expect more than additional info on the game's concept or artwork...and I am much more interested in the former.
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:48:17
Post by: unmercifulconker
There was a podcast interview today?
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 19:52:07
Post by: Enigwolf
Podcast interview was on the ICs. It was a few days back but no one posted anything about it, so I'll do it tomorrow.
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/06/30 20:47:25
Post by: unmercifulconker
Ah sweet, nice one. 
5394
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 07:02:17
Post by: reds8n
http://www.pcgamesn.com/warhammer-40000-eternal-crusade-preview-war-and-promises
I’m going to open this article by establishing something: I absolutely love the Warhammer 40,000 setting. There is something so absolutely imaginative about the system which begat something that now sounds as generic as “space marines.”
I mean, let’s look at it: these space marines are actually in service of an emperor who is basically dead, but kept on a bizarre life-support throne which has allowed his consciousness to protect mankind from the forces of Chaos for tens of thousands of years. Except the throne is breaking down, and when it does, his decaying body will finally snuff out. And no one can fix it, because no one understands how technology works any more — in fact technology is treated as religion, not to be understood but to be worshipped.
It’s bonkers. The world of Warhammer 40,000 is bonkers, and very, very dark — after all, if Chaos doesn’t eventually kill mankind, the Tyranids, a countless horde of hive-mind aliens, will. And honestly? If you want to work in that kind of context, that kind of thing has to touch some part of your brain that just thrills you. That’s certainly the case with Miguel Caron and Behavior Interactive, who are working on Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade, a massive online shooter.
If you’ve been following the news, you’ll probably be confused: wasn’t there already an MMO based on Warhammer 40,000 coming? Dark Millenium or something? Well, the answer there is a bit... vague. THQ, who owned the rights, went bankrupt. But before that happened, they announced that the MMO “part” of Dark Millenium wasn’t working out so they were canning it. While it’s never been fully announced that the title is now completely cancelled, that only seems to be because THQ aren’t around to make announcement.
In a chat at this year’s E3, Caron explained. “What happened [with THQ] was a big learning experience for Games Workshop. We have the exclusive rights to the IP for our game, but the way they give out the IP now is they slice it up: we are promising a third-person, over the shoulder shooter with massive warfare. No story, only war. We pitched it to Games Workshop and they carved that out of the IP.”
“There may be other Warhammer 40,000 games!” he laughed, “On iPad, or even a story-driven MMO a la Rogue Trader. Before this, THQ got the rights to the entire IP. But for Games Workshop it’s not about how much money they make selling the IP to someone. They don’t want someone to buy the IP but not actually get a game out with it. So they have the same goal as us: to get a game out that makes the fans happy.”
It’s all good to know that Games Workshop are actively involved in this upcoming game, but with little more than a (scant) press release and an announcement website to go on, what is there to get excited about?
“Imagine the massive warfare of Planetside 2, but we are aiming to double the number of concurrent players in a battle,” Caron boasted. If he’s serious, that means battles with potentially as many as four thousand players. “Thousands of Orks slamming their shields, Space Marines on the other side, running towards each other and slamming into each other like it’s 300. An epic, bloody battle until at the end there’s one huge Ork Nob battling against a lone Space Marine hero, with fallen players and more watching it happen via a feed direct to Youtube.”
Caron talks with a real passion and belief, even if you can tell such ideas are still lodged right in his brain rather than reality. After all, he admits the game doesn’t plan to go into an open beta for two years yet. Caron is so incredibly passionate, however, that as a long time player of the tabletop game he actually left his CEO role at Funcom in order to make this game — approaching and somehow managing to convince the team at Games Workshop to sign on for his MMO without having a studio attached.
“This is my project; when I was with Funcom in Montreal I wanted to use this license but they did not; it was one of the reasons I left. I want to make this game. When I started it was not about the company, but the game. Even on my own, I still had seven people with me working on the game, building it, and they are the core team at Behaviour right now. When I joined Behavior, it was predicated on them not just getting me, but my team.”
He adds that Behaviour are the “best studio” for the job, referring to their long history (originally as the unfortunately named A2M) working on licensed games. He says that one thing the studio has developed over its years making licensed games is strong internal discipline and project management.
Perhaps taking a dig at the last folk to have a crack at a Warhammer 40,000 MMO, he added “Behaviour is all about financial discipline. It’s very important, because when you talk about making such a large game... well you see so many companies go bankrupt trying.”
And make no mistake, while the basic outline of Eternal Crusade as a third-person shooter might not sound that ambitious, Caron could talk for hours and hours about every piece of minutiae they’ve decided for the title. In particular, he’s hugely proud of his plans for the game to be almost entirely player-driven.
“One of the things I hate about massive warfare in MMOs is when you have no real winner. We are going to have campaigns, between two weeks to three months long, across a persistent world. But we will not control it. We will have a three level hierarchy. You can be a squad leader, a chapter leader or a war council leader. This is voted by the players ...So the overall objective will come from the war council, through the chapters to the squads, and each layer can add their own rules to the objective. Players will decide what they do, and the front lines will change and planets [will be] won or lost as a result.”
Now the game will be free-to-play, but before you shut the browser window, Caron is determined to see it as a positive, and one that works with the license. All because of a key restriction: free players won’t be able to play as leaders.
“The four armies we have announced so far are the Space Marine Dark Angels, the Chaos Space Marine Iron Warriors, the Eldar and the Orks. So to take the Orks as an example, we have two strengths of Ork: Ork Boyz and then the Nobs and Bosses. Now, I think balance is a false goal: war is not balanced. Yes, we are going to make sure everyone has fun, and in terms of making each character equal against another character, we will try and do that, but an Ork Boy against a Space Marine? Well you’d need two or three to have a chance. The fans know this; they’d kill me if it was any different. Nobs, that’s different. But having a homogenous balance goes against the IP.”
He continues, “So certain races will be premium, and we’ll talk about this more, but right now I can guarantee the Ork Boyz will be free, because I want them to represent what they do in the IP.”
“Look at it this way,” he explains. “what’s the difference between how free players and paying players view each other? Paid players think of the free players as rude, uneducated about the game; noise on the line. That’s Ork boyz! So when an Ork Nob player gives an objective to his Boyz, ‘go attack the Space Marines here!” well out of 100 Orks thirty are going to say ‘yes boss!’ and the other seventy will do whatever they like. That’s Orks!”
However, he’s not too willing to get bogged down in the specifics of the free-to-play business. “There’s a lot of noise about it, and we have lots of ideas like that, but are just beginning to build the game. In two years, who is to say what the player is going to want? Even players who agree with us now might change their mind.”
He concludes with a promise: “we’ll listen to you, however.”
Fans of the IP have been here before, of course, and wishes in this industry are rarely more than that. But talking to Caron it’s hard not to buy into the self-belief of a man who left a company to make this game happen. Will it live up to his dreams? There’s two years at least to wait to find out, and whatever the result, Caron is taking full responsibility.
Recognise the other bits of artwork, but not this one ...
1
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 07:11:23
Post by: Melissia
Doesn't look like any real new information...
Also more obnoxious elitism. Figures.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 07:12:53
Post by: The Dark Apostle
Unfortunately it's not new, pretty nice art though
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 08:40:13
Post by: Sigvatr
It's not a good sign if they got the fluff wrong :/
[...]after all, if Chaos doesn’t eventually kill mankind, the Tyranids, a countless horde of hive-mind aliens, will.
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 09:44:34
Post by: unmercifulconker
The image of thousands of orks and space marines clashing full speed at each other brought a big smile to my face.
Edit: I just want to throw my concern out here about the part that says 'fallen players can watch via youtube,' does this indicate no respawn or a very long spawn time? Although it would be the best immersion, sadly imo the f2p players would really suffer from this, as they would just get killed easily by a group of marines. I hope that part just meant you can watch as you wait to respawn.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 14:19:17
Post by: Enigwolf
Interestingly, they went from a 5:1 ratio of Orks to Space Marines to 2ish-3:1.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 14:49:41
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Enigwolf wrote:Interestingly, they went from a 5:1 ratio of Orks to Space Marines to 2ish-3:1.
That's better. I guess they realized how absurd 5:1 is.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 15:05:09
Post by: Melissia
unmercifulconker wrote:Edit: I just want to throw my concern out here about the part that says 'fallen players can watch via youtube,' does this indicate no respawn or a very long spawn time?
If that's the case, I'll probably ignore this game even harder.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 15:14:31
Post by: MandalorynOranj
unmercifulconker wrote:The image of thousands of orks and space marines clashing full speed at each other brought a big smile to my face.
Edit: I just want to throw my concern out here about the part that says 'fallen players can watch via youtube,' does this indicate no respawn or a very long spawn time? Although it would be the best immersion, sadly imo the f2p players would really suffer from this, as they would just get killed easily by a group of marines. I hope that part just meant you can watch as you wait to respawn.
The way I read it sounds like either there will be that instead of a killcam, so while you're respawning, and/or the chosen leaders will have a YouTube feed following them, completely separate from the game but there so people can watch what are, in theory, the most epic moments of the battle.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 15:20:31
Post by: Melissia
Dude, if respawn lasts so long that I have time to navigate youtube and watch some long-ass video of someone else having fun, what inclination would I have to continue playing?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 15:43:28
Post by: Sigvatr
Melissia wrote:Dude, if respawn lasts so long that I have time to navigate youtube and watch some long-ass video of someone else having fun, what inclination would I have to continue playing?
Haha, good point
Doesn't Planetside 2 feature queued respawns with a reasonable, <30 second respawn time? If the respawn times should really be that long, it's another huge advantage for MEQ players as the only chance Orks have is to overwhelm them and with long respawn times, that's not going to happen.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 17:27:07
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Orks should have faster respawn times than marines. Don't they mature from spores in a matter of days?
Hell, fast respawn times could be a racial ability for them.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 17:33:46
Post by: AWesker1976
Miguel really needs to consider hiring some type of PR person to talk to the press for him. That said :
We have Dark Angels, Iron Warriors, then we just get "Eldar" and "Orks". Eldar Craftworlds and Ork Clans are just as unique with thier own traditions and ways they wage war as any Space Marine Chapter. Some Ork clans even have trade relations with the Imperium and can be hired as mercs. Hopefully this will change in the coming months.
I would use the same respawn tech they used in Defiance. After "death" you fall down and other players have a set timer to "res" you . If at the end of the timer or you decide you are tired of waiting for your teammates to stop teabagging each other you can manually extract yourself off the field of battle to a predetermined location and return to the fray. You just hop on your vehicle and rush back to wherever the fighting is closest. I really hope the devs ignore the rantings of the hardcore mmo crowd when they will ask for draconian and excessive punishments to be placed on people who respawn. Examples of this could be WoW's "res sickness" that cuts your stats by up to 75% while in the sickness state effectively rendering you as dangerous as a declawed/defanged kitten.
Telling someone that a major feature of your game is "you can watch other people play the game on youtube".... I can't roll my eyes hard enough at that.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 17:41:57
Post by: Sigvatr
Oh and if they really want to stick to the lore, isn't there a maximum of 1.000.000 Space Marines at every time? Plus: isn't that whole YouTube thing a step back? Anyone remebers Counterstrike where you could watch people ingame?
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 17:57:19
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Sigvatr wrote:Oh and if they really want to stick to the lore, isn't there a maximum of 1.000.000 Space Marines at every time?
Plus: isn't that whole YouTube thing a step back? Anyone remebers Counterstrike where you could watch people ingame?
Not only CS. You can watch other players play ingame during your respawn period in nearly every PvP game ever.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 17:59:47
Post by: Sigvatr
Yeah, just remembered Mechwarrior:Online. Duh.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:04:28
Post by: AWesker1976
Sigvatr wrote:Oh and if they really want to stick to the lore, isn't there a maximum of 1.000.000 Space Marines at every time?
Plus: isn't that whole YouTube thing a step back? Anyone remebers Counterstrike where you could watch people ingame?
Don't the Black Templars fluff indicate that they effectively ignore the edict in the Codex Astartes about never having more than 1000 marines and recruit how they please?
21853
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:07:50
Post by: mattyrm
Melissia wrote: unmercifulconker wrote:Edit: I just want to throw my concern out here about the part that says 'fallen players can watch via youtube,' does this indicate no respawn or a very long spawn time?
If that's the case, I'll probably ignore this game even harder.
Yeah csn you imagine!?
Why on earth would I want to feth off to youtube and watvh other people playing a game?
The only person I can possibly imagine wanting to do that are those really weird blokes who like hiding in the cupboard so strangers can tackle their missus!
(Sorry about any typos, I'm typing in my cupboard and its dark)
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:08:46
Post by: unmercifulconker
Templars do what they want.
Varied respawn times depending on race would be good I reckon e.g. orks have 3 seconds, marines have 5/6 etc
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:09:43
Post by: Sigvatr
Just do respawn waves. One wave every ~60 seconds.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:25:10
Post by: Melissia
AWesker1976 wrote:Don't the Black Templars fluff indicate that they effectively ignore the edict in the Codex Astartes about never having more than 1000 marines and recruit how they please?
This is counterbalanced by the fact that most chapters have less than 1000 marines due to casualties. But let's not get too deeply in to trying to justify Games Workshop's stupidity. Better idea. Respawn almost immediately back at base, protected from spawn camping by turrets/fortress walls and the like, and then have the players gather up in squads for the next assault, giving time to organize and allowing them to grab some more vehicles (or at least transports). With properly sized and balanced maps (and centralized "points" to fight over in a control-point or king of the hill style camemode), this would fit their "organized warfare" idea far better.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 18:28:50
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
AWesker1976 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:Oh and if they really want to stick to the lore, isn't there a maximum of 1.000.000 Space Marines at every time?
Plus: isn't that whole YouTube thing a step back? Anyone remebers Counterstrike where you could watch people ingame?
Don't the Black Templars fluff indicate that they effectively ignore the edict in the Codex Astartes about never having more than 1000 marines and recruit how they please?
Yep. They have the largest chapter, iirc.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:00:38
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:AWesker1976 wrote:Don't the Black Templars fluff indicate that they effectively ignore the edict in the Codex Astartes about never having more than 1000 marines and recruit how they please?
This is counterbalanced by the fact that most chapters have less than 1000 marines due to casualties. But let's not get too deeply in to trying to justify Games Workshop's stupidity. Better idea. Respawn almost immediately back at base, protected from spawn camping by turrets/fortress walls and the like, and then have the players gather up in squads for the next assault, giving time to organize and allowing them to grab some more vehicles (or at least transports). With properly sized and balanced maps (and centralized "points" to fight over in a control-point or king of the hill style camemode), this would fit their "organized warfare" idea far better.
How is anyone going to take a base if it has instant spawn speed? I like being able to see an eagle's eye view of the battlefield so how's this: when you die, you immediately spawn back inside your orbital guild hall that has a function to observe different views of the battle (primarily from above - and if your guild hall has upgrades, perhaps you can even spy on the enemy). Your "spawn timer" is based upon your deployment capacity of the two ways you can enter the battlefield. The first option: Teleportation, which unless you are the Eldar will likely drop you off in in a player chosen location that is then randomized due to the odd nature of the technology. This location is always outside the battlefield and can perhaps end up killing you - but can be used alone, or in small groups, and immediately. The second: When enough players have died and appear in the guild hall with you, everyone can decide to embark upon a drop(ship, pod, rok, ect.) that thunders down and violently crashes into the battlefield. The vehicle is destroyed in the explosion, but you and (4-9 Marines, or dozens of others) deploy from the wreckage. Edit: I guess staying true to lore I'd have to add CSM/ SM's and Nobs wearing the equivalent of Terminator armor could drastically reduce the distance from battle needed to Teleport, and the Eldar could do it regardless. I'm not sure what other rapid deployment mechanic the Eldar could use - maybe some sort of weird pyschic storm that allows for mass teleportation and destruction.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:16:52
Post by: Melissia
How is anyone going to take a base if it has instant spawn speed?
How is anyone on the losing side going to have any fun if they can just be spawn camped? Actually, in my idea, the spawn base COULD NOT be taken at all. The bases that could be taken would be those in contested areas, which are further from spawn. Allowing one side or the other to sit around spawn camping all day is only for gak designers who don't have a single brain cell in whatever thing that passes for a head upon their shoulders.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:19:22
Post by: DemetriDominov
If there was a spawn base, it would only mean that the enemy at the gates could camp it indefinitely. Allowing it to fall into enemy hands allows the game to not stagnate into the village people staring into a campfire waiting for sparks to shoot out of it so they can spit on it.
Having everything - even a "capital" - that players can take while their spacecraft orbits in space allows for two things:
1. You will NEVER get camped because you can deploy elsewhere.
2. Your faction can lose all their territory, but still be allowed to play (see rule 1.)
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:23:21
Post by: AWesker1976
Melissia wrote:How is anyone going to take a base if it has instant spawn speed?
How is anyone on the losing side going to have any fun if they can just be spawn camped?
Actually, in my idea, the spawn base COULD NOT be taken at all. The bases that could be taken would be those in contested areas, which are further from spawn.
Allowing one side or the other to sit around spawn camping all day is only for gak designers who don't have a single brain cell in whatever thing that passes for a head upon their shoulders.
I thought the overall goal for this war was to beat back enemy forces and capture territory?
Another question comes to mind that the devs mentioned are the 'nids. They say the nids will be the great equalizer that will keep one faction from getting more powerful than the other. How are you supposed to rout an enemy force if the game spawns npcs specifically to stop you from doing so?
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:24:22
Post by: Melissia
 DemetriDominov wrote:If there was a spawn base, it would only mean that the enemy at the gates could camp it indefinitely. Allowing it to fall into enemy hands allows the game to not stagnate into the village people staring into a campfire waiting for sparks to shoot out of it so they can spit on it.
And then where would the enemy force spawn once their home base is taken? Nowhere, I suppose? Is the game going to tell the losing side "SORRY, YOU CAN'T PLAY UNTIL NEXT MONTH WHEN THE NEXT CAMPAIGN STARTS! GO FETH YOURSELF AND PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!" If a group of kids decide to all gang up and storm your base while everyone else is at work and not able to log on, well then you're just gak out of luck, you got nowhere to spawn, go play something else? And if there is no central place to spawn-- how exactly are you going to have a place to get people organized for a proper military assault?
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:28:57
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote: DemetriDominov wrote:If there was a spawn base, it would only mean that the enemy at the gates could camp it indefinitely. Allowing it to fall into enemy hands allows the game to not stagnate into the village people staring into a campfire waiting for sparks to shoot out of it so they can spit on it.
And then where would the enemy force spawn once their home base is taken?
Nowhere, I suppose? Is the game going to tell the losing side "SORRY, YOU CAN'T PLAY UNTIL NEXT MONTH WHEN THE NEXT CAMPAIGN STARTS! GO FETH YOURSELF AND PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!" If a group of kids decide to all gang up and storm your base while everyone else is at work and not able to log on, well then you're just gak out of luck, you got nowhere to spawn, go play something else?
I liked that quote better, especially since you didn't let me finish my post lol.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:30:53
Post by: Melissia
I can tell you from experience that this doesn't work. The only way to prevent spawn camping is by making the enemy spawn completely unreachable. Besides, "elsewhere"? How exactly can you spawn "elsewhere" when there's no safe place to spawn because the enemy's conquered the map?
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:31:44
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:
And if there is no central place to spawn-- how exactly are you going to have a place to get people organized for a proper military assault?
The centralized location would be the faction's fleet orbiting above the world. From there it simply be in the hands of the players (and war council) to figure out where to go and make the most impact.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:32:29
Post by: AWesker1976
Melissia wrote: DemetriDominov wrote:If there was a spawn base, it would only mean that the enemy at the gates could camp it indefinitely. Allowing it to fall into enemy hands allows the game to not stagnate into the village people staring into a campfire waiting for sparks to shoot out of it so they can spit on it.
And then where would the enemy force spawn once their home base is taken?
Nowhere, I suppose? Is the game going to tell the losing side "SORRY, YOU CAN'T PLAY UNTIL NEXT MONTH WHEN THE NEXT CAMPAIGN STARTS! GO FETH YOURSELF AND PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!" If a group of kids decide to all gang up and storm your base while everyone else is at work and not able to log on, well then you're just gak out of luck, you got nowhere to spawn, go play something else?
And if there is no central place to spawn-- how exactly are you going to have a place to get people organized for a proper military assault?
I think it was quoted earlier when the game was originally announced that "home base" (at least for the Spess Murheens) was a cruiser up in orbit and used drop pods, etc to actually enter the war.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:33:19
Post by: Melissia
DemetriDominov wrote: Melissia wrote:
And if there is no central place to spawn-- how exactly are you going to have a place to get people organized for a proper military assault?
The centralized location would be the faction's fleet orbiting above the world. From there it simply be in the hands of the players (and war council) to figure out where to go and make the most impact.
While it might seem to make a little sense at first, I simply cannot see this going well, especially since the devs have outright stated that they don't give a damn about balance.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:34:05
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:I can tell you from experience that this doesn't work. The only way to prevent spawn camping is by making the enemy spawn completely unreachable. Besides, "elsewhere"? How exactly can you spawn "elsewhere" when there's no safe place to spawn because the enemy's conquered the map?
Because, [Edit: feth it]: the guild halls ARE IN FREAKING SPACE MEL. *Flings poo*
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:36:48
Post by: AWesker1976
DemetriDominov wrote: Melissia wrote:I can tell you from experience that this doesn't work. The only way to prevent spawn camping is by making the enemy spawn completely unreachable.
Besides, "elsewhere"? How exactly can you spawn "elsewhere" when there's no safe place to spawn because the enemy's conquered the map?
Because, [Edit: feth it]: the guild halls ARE IN FREAKING SPACE MEL.
Could you calm down a bit, mods are watching this thread for this kind of thing now.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:36:51
Post by: Melissia
So basically, if you die, you're forced off the battlefield entirely and have to go through at least two loading screens in order to get back in. And you want me to consider this level of game-flow-breaking design a good thing. That might work for an MMO which is very slow paced, but I can't see it working for a shooter, especially one where you can die very quickly becuase you'r facing off against intentionally overpowered enemies.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:43:01
Post by: DemetriDominov
Not sure, dying is pretty bad on the flow of any game YMMV.
Planetside at least does [a similar] thing with their drop pods.
This is also a 4th gen console game, load times are getting shorter by the month, the "load time" could just be watching your drop ship actually thundering towards the planet, straight onto your destination - making an illusion that there actually isn't a load time at all.
35686
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:45:08
Post by: Sigmundr
TLDR:
I read an interview recently, how he described the death/dying part is you get incapacitated, and wait for a team mate to revive you. Players will have access to racial deathblows, plus microtransactions for other animations. I'll try and locate the interview
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:46:04
Post by: DemetriDominov
Sigmundr wrote:TLDR: I read an interview recently, how he described the death/dying part is you get incapacitated, and wait for a team mate to revive you. Players will have access to racial deathblows, plus microtransactions for other animations. I'll try and locate the interview
Very true, but the question remains... what happens when you're actually executed? Added from last post: I'd feel that an orbital deployment could really be a spectacular piece of the game. From the silence of space, we as players can only see our vessel peeling off our mothership to traverse the nether. Slowly, the sound of a feint hiss permeates our speakers before flashing to a dull roar as the ship's outside glows molten orange from re-entry. Trails of fire and smoke mesmerize us for a brief moment, the clouds of the nameless planet enveloping us, then spitting us out on the other side to the sight of war eternal. Our journey ends abruptly in a fiery crash, through the tidal wave of dirt and flame, sundered earth and quaking plane, we join our cries and blades to the eternal crusade. From the smoldering crater, we arise, dawning upon the field as the sky itself splits open and rains our comrades to our side. In game trailer anyone? Seriously, i'd forfeit any amount of development on extra things like Fliers if it meant 2 things: The scene above, and the involvement of all the races in it.
62229
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:52:01
Post by: Minx
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:54:25
Post by: AWesker1976
If this is how they have it planned, this game will crash and burn before it even gets to the beta.
I'm sure Miguel is not so incompetent as to do this.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 21:58:27
Post by: Sigvatr
Pretty sure it will be like this:
Go to 0 HP, go down, can be revived within a time limit. If executed first, you immediately die and can no longer be revived.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:00:06
Post by: The Dark Apostle
When your executed what stops you from respawning?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:03:15
Post by: Sigvatr
Nothing. You are simply forced to walk back to the fight instead of being revived on the spot.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:07:22
Post by: The Dark Apostle
Oh from the way people are talking about it it was a game ender
35686
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:10:16
Post by: Sigmundr
From what I understand of their payment model:
Each race will have a set of classes, and each class will have a linear skill progression as you "level up"
Everyone has access to the Ork Boy class for free.
You either purchase a single race's worth of classes, or individual classes. This hasn't been made clear (and probably hasn't been decided).
Personally, I'd love it to be class-by-class, for perhaps a buck or two per class. If I can get to play a Loota and a Chaos sorceror or warp(war)smith, and only be in 10 bucks, I'd be a happy player.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:18:18
Post by: Sigvatr
1-2$ per class? Never. Have a look at the prices in F2P games. 13-25€ for a mount alone. 5€ for a mere new skin. Classes will be at least 10€ (=15$).
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:21:03
Post by: AWesker1976
Sigvatr wrote:1-2$ per class? Never. Have a look at the prices in F2P games. 13-25€ for a mount alone. 5€ for a mere new skin. Classes will be at least 10€ (=15$).
Or, it could be like in Marvel Heroes. Extra characters range from 5-7$ for average character up to 20$ for the popular ones. (Spiderman is a 20$ one for example)
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:22:25
Post by: DemetriDominov
I'm really not concerned about F2P, I'm just going to buy the game. I don't see why those on Dakka wouldn't after all really.... I mean I see F2P as allowing anyone to demo the game they don't know if they'll like, and then getting it if they wanted to. I'm pretty sure that unless there's a specific reason why you didn't want the game, most fans are going to buy it. (Or some package deal that's the equivalent of buying it)
35686
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:25:15
Post by: Sigmundr
AWesker1976 wrote: Sigvatr wrote:1-2$ per class? Never. Have a look at the prices in F2P games. 13-25€ for a mount alone. 5€ for a mere new skin. Classes will be at least 10€ (=15$).
Or, it could be like in Marvel Heroes. Extra characters range from 5-7$ for average character up to 20$ for the popular ones. (Spiderman is a 20$ one for example)
I know what I said was wishful thinking. Staggered pricing would make sense, with the "command" classes being the most expensive, and the tac-marine/aspect warrior etc. being cheaper. Needing to pay 15 bucks to be a veteran sarge or 20 to be a chapter master, with those being the requirements to form a squad or strike force respectively, should hopefully mean you have more invested players making the decisions.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:32:44
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Sigmundr wrote:From what I understand of their payment model:
Each race will have a set of classes, and each class will have a linear skill progression as you "level up"
Everyone has access to the Ork Boy class for free.
You either purchase a single race's worth of classes, or individual classes. This hasn't been made clear (and probably hasn't been decided).
Personally, I'd love it to be class-by-class, for perhaps a buck or two per class. If I can get to play a Loota and a Chaos sorceror or warp(war)smith, and only be in 10 bucks, I'd be a happy player.
Everyone has an Ork Boy for free? Then how will there be different factions? Wouldn't this payment model ultimately result in F2P vs P2P ?
31027
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:35:21
Post by: MadMuzza
They said if you buy the game you will have access to all content, just like guild wars 2.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:37:19
Post by: AWesker1976
MadMuzza wrote:They said if you buy the game you will have access to all content, just like guild wars 2.
they also said that if you are FTP, you only get access to Ork Boyz.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:37:22
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Yeah, that still results in F2P vs P2P. Not a very clever idea imo :/
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:53:02
Post by: DemetriDominov
It fits the lore fairly well though. I'm not sure what's going to happen when they add more races, but at least at launch F2P vs P2P seems plausible.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:58:17
Post by: Enigwolf
I'm actually curious as to the state of the orbiting fleet. Is everyone just sitting around the planet eating popcorn and drinking coffee while their ground forces pound away? I'm pretty sure that everyone should be engaging each other in space as well...
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 22:59:39
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Enigwolf wrote:I'm actually curious as to the state of the orbiting fleet. Is everyone just sitting around the planet eating popcorn and drinking coffee while their ground forces pound away?
So that's where Youtube comes in !
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 23:07:36
Post by: AWesker1976
Enigwolf wrote:I'm actually curious as to the state of the orbiting fleet. Is everyone just sitting around the planet eating popcorn and drinking coffee while their ground forces pound away? I'm pretty sure that everyone should be engaging each other in space as well...
Makes me wanna forget this MMO thing and ask for a Battlefleet Gothic rts instead.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 23:14:11
Post by: The Dark Apostle
What happened to that Titan game? Where you play as a Titan and etc
31027
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 23:33:14
Post by: MadMuzza
AWesker1976 wrote:MadMuzza wrote:They said if you buy the game you will have access to all content, just like guild wars 2.
they also said that if you are FTP, you only get access to Ork Boyz.
I really don't see a problem here, they're giving you an option to try the gamewith a certain race - if you like the game then you purchase it and have everything.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 23:35:50
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I think that was cancelled.
35686
40k MMO @ 2013/07/02 23:58:35
Post by: Sigmundr
AWesker1976 wrote: Enigwolf wrote:I'm actually curious as to the state of the orbiting fleet. Is everyone just sitting around the planet eating popcorn and drinking coffee while their ground forces pound away? I'm pretty sure that everyone should be engaging each other in space as well...
Makes me wanna forget this MMO thing and ask for a Battlefleet Gothic rts instead.
I'd seriously give up a leg for a proper BFG rts. Right now I'm surviving on Fire in the Sky a (dead) mod for Star Wars Empire: Forces of Corruption, and a WIP mod (not exactly RTS) for an indie game called Starsector.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 01:21:38
Post by: MandalorynOranj
I don't think you would buy classes individually, probably more like you pay to be able to access a race and then advance through its levels and choose specializations, like you would need to earn a command role, it's not something that's bought, especially since it's been stated that players choose their commanders. Orks in this case have access to their "level one" state for free and when they pay are allowed to advance. The Ork boy is a demo for the game, pretty simple.
As for the bases, respawning back on your ship makes the most sense. This allows for more control of territory on the ground, as well as more tactical options of where to place yourself when you come back. It also gives more of an incentive for apothecaries, painboyz, etc. to do their jobs, so they can keep more soldiers around in the fight at once. A mechanic similar to Battlefield where you can always spawn on your sergeant/exarch/nob/champion if they're alive would be welcome also.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 03:10:16
Post by: Melissia
MadMuzza wrote:I really don't see a problem here, they're giving you an option to try the gamewith a certain race - if you like the game then you purchase it and have everything.
And they are punishing you with an intentionally gimped race and no progression, making the game seem like (and, to some extent, literally be) a pay to win trainwreck.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 06:12:45
Post by: Lynata
It's a demo that lets curious players have some fun playing (and potentially killing!) as "mobs".
Are people really suggesting that this option should just be taken out of the game, because for some reason it'd be better if everyone was forced to pay for the full race and the Orks are less numerous?
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 08:55:10
Post by: Enigwolf
I feel like it's so futile to discuss the P2P part given that we don't even know the paying system. We don't know if we're paying to unlock or paying a subscription.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 11:49:04
Post by: Melissia
Lynata wrote:It's a demo that lets curious players have some fun playing (and potentially killing!) as "mobs". Are people really suggesting that this option should just be taken out of the game, because for some reason it'd be better if everyone was forced to pay for the full race and the Orks are less numerous?
No, I'm suggesting that the "demo" should involve actual gameplay instead of "you get to be slaughtered by real players because feth you we don't really want you here", which is the attitude of the developers thus far.
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 13:13:20
Post by: unmercifulconker
I do think its wise to make the orks a f2p race though, the orks are the mass mob race and it will look a bit stupid if you had to pay to play as an ork.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 14:05:34
Post by: MandalorynOranj
Melissia wrote: Lynata wrote:It's a demo that lets curious players have some fun playing (and potentially killing!) as "mobs".
Are people really suggesting that this option should just be taken out of the game, because for some reason it'd be better if everyone was forced to pay for the full race and the Orks are less numerous?
No, I'm suggesting that the "demo" should involve actual gameplay instead of "you get to be slaughtered by real players because feth you we don't really want you here", which is the attitude of the developers thus far.
That's utterly ridiculous. It's not like an Ork boy is a small child on the battlefield with a teddybear. They're still armed with a gun and a hittin' stick, and will kill their fair share of stuff. In fact, it seems like they'll kill exactly as much stuff as they do on the tabletop. You're playing the same game, it's just harder until you rank up, or unless you work in large mobs. And it seems like a perfect way to do a demo, it shows how the mechanics of the game work, and contributes something to the game at large. With what we know now, even thinking of this game as F2P with the ability to buy other races seems flawed, it seems more like a normal game that you pay for with one free demo race/class.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 15:10:16
Post by: JWhex
The more I learn about this game the less I am interested in it.
Perhaps, the developers really are on to something and it will be great. If there is wide praise for it 3 or 4 months after release I may try it. So far it sounds very boring to me and the core ideas do not appeal to me at all.
I find shooters to be very tedious and boring. Because of the proposed massive scale of the battles it really sounds like its just going to be zerging 24/7. Once I have experienced the graphics of a shooter and the basic layout, the games just dont have a high repeat value for me.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:19:52
Post by: Melissia
MandalorynOranj wrote:That's utterly ridiculous. It's not like an Ork boy is a small child on the battlefield with a teddybear.
They stated in an early interview that Orks will be five times weaker than a space marine. So apparently... they will be armed with teddybears.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:25:11
Post by: Enigwolf
Melissia wrote: MandalorynOranj wrote:That's utterly ridiculous. It's not like an Ork boy is a small child on the battlefield with a teddybear.
They stated in an early interview that Orks will be five times weaker than a space marine.
So apparently... they will be armed with teddybears.
This has changed in a more recent interview to 2 to 3.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:25:32
Post by: DemetriDominov
It would be interesting to see guild hall invasions in space.
- 0 gravity fighting.
- Vacuum of space kills (ew).
- Burn and lootin', bomb and shootin! (but mostly just looting.)
I'm hoping that if this mechanic is in the game, we can take stuff from the enemy - honors, rep, ect.
It would obviously be very difficult to do, and the guild halls should be something that Mel was taking about: bastions that cannot be taken, are well defended, and the area where players spawn.
Preventing camping would be pretty easy, because of the orbiting nature of the craft would make boarding actions only possible near the end of the campaign (once every full moon...). In these final days those races that have been pushed to the brink of annihilation on the planet's surface can exact vengeance upon only 1 faction, by launching an all out counterattack on them. After this window, the campaign would be over and the fleet's would become too distant from each other to launch any further attacks.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:32:57
Post by: Sigvatr
Enigwolf wrote: Melissia wrote: MandalorynOranj wrote:That's utterly ridiculous. It's not like an Ork boy is a small child on the battlefield with a teddybear.
They stated in an early interview that Orks will be five times weaker than a space marine.
So apparently... they will be armed with teddybears.
This has changed in a more recent interview to 2 to 3.
2 actually sounds like a reasonable number.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:34:59
Post by: Enigwolf
So I finally got around to listening to the interview that Carl and Geoff over at The Independent Characters podcast (Episode 80) had with some guys from Behavior working on it. Miguel only popped his head in briefly, other than him it was the Lead Designer, Lead Level Designer, and I think a Lead Programmer? The interview was hard to hear clearly because they did it over at Skype, and if there's anyone from Behavior reading this, you guys need a better microphone. Seriously. In any case, it was a short interview and a lot of things were simply repeats of what we already know, but there a few nuggets that I got from it. 1. A really good first clarification that was brought up by the team was that Eternal Crusade is NOT a F2P game, and isn't being developed as such. EC is a fully pay-to-play game WITH a F2P element, much like how a game demo would work to show/introduce the game for those people on the fence about buying it. Ergo, the focus is not on microtransactions, monetization, etc. it's on developing a fully fleshed out game like Guild Wars 2 or Planetside 2. This would explain why the only F2P component is the Ork Boyz and not one per side, especially since they're expecting them to be more numerous. One thing I did realize is that if they had a F2P option for each side, the F2P players may potentially get outnumbered by the P2P players, and then... the Ork Waagh! won't really be a horde so much as a few players... 2. The team working on it consists of a lot of Funcom veterans with prior experience in MMOs, such as The Secret World. 3. They're going for a "Realistic Graphics" approach (like Space Marine) as opposed to "Cartoon" (like in WoW). 4. Immersion immersion immersion. The team's really big on that. That means we're not going to see Space Marines mining with a pickaxe or hammering away at an anvil. Crafting is there, though. 5. Distinctiveness in customization. They want everyone to have the ability to create their own unique look and aesthetic, but there will be limitations based on design and technical capability. What I mean by design is that a Space Marine still needs to look like a Space Marine, a Chaos marine needs to be clearly different from a Space Marine, etc. Technical capability comes down to the engine's ability to render and draw at different levels of detail and how many things to be visible on the screen at once. 6. Focus is on the PvP war aspect. What this means is that even PvE will contribute to the war, such as claiming a new territory to be used by your side's war effort.
74901
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:40:30
Post by: miguelcaron
Dear Fans, I am back after a long weekend moving House :-(
So I will try to answer a few questions/comments:
1-JWhex, YOUR game is NOT a shooter. Its WAR with strategy, tactics and Melee actions. Its the Whole War with supply chain and politics. Quite simple but deep Gameplay. Like I said in other post, please dont just tell me you dont like it. We are making YOUR Game so I love when you tell us what you dont like but please bring us suggestions.
2-Pricing: The next person that mention Pay2Win...... I will Troll you for life ;-) Seriously, our model is called F2P Premium Hybrid Model. Yes the Orc Boys is the F2P factions but a free player will be able to do EVERYTHING in the game... forever EXCEPT Leadership. To be a leader you need to buy different packages or you can upgrade your Boyz into Noobs through MTC. What I mean by Premium is that you can buy one of the package and play the rest of your life without paying anymore (Like Guild War 2) and what I mean about Hybrid is that we have solutions in between all of this in a ''a la carte'' approach.
3- I was reading a comments from one of you who is worried about balance with the Orcs F2P: When I say WAR is NOT balance, I mean the balance is not just about population size nor is it only about the faction/class strentgh and weakness but more of the WAY you use it. While I was doing my university in a military college in Polemology (Strategic and Military studies) we have a class (very very tough class!!) on War Mathematics where General use algorithm to forcast the future of the war. Each strategies (guerilla, conventinal, naval, etc) had its own algorithm and each tactic and tools (soldier, tanks, mines) had their values attached to it. Playing with these math you see that balance can ''almost'' always be achieved but its asymetric balance. A chess Game is balance, but a Queen vs a Pawn is NOT balance nor are you guarantied winning if I switch 2 of your pawn for a Knight. One F2P Orc Boys alone might feel underpower BUT if he has a good Orcs Noobs Officer that bring good tactics that maximise the Orcs Boys strenght (numbers, melee, surprise, etc..) then he will feel like Super powerfull. Same with Eldars. The way I will play my Eldars is following one of Sun Tzu teaching: A true General has already won the way when for the first time he step on the battlefield. I will destroy ALL the enemy Outpost and cut their supply chain so when the big battle arrives.... I will see a bunch of Dead Emperors fans doing clic clic clic with their Bolters!!!! :-)
And yes...... Reveal 2 is ''MOST LIKELY'' will be done this week. We are trying very hard for it.
Regards
There is ONLY WAR
Miguel
Your studio Head Behaviour Online
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 17:59:21
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I like how you kept saying noobs instead of nobs
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:00:53
Post by: Melissia
So... you're assuming that Orks will basically have to apply better tactics in order to win, because they're weaker in every other way. So then, what happens if (when) there are not only more Space Marine players, who are playing stronger characters, but both sides are equally well led? Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, I wonder if there's someone else on his team that might be better at talking about non-Space Marine lore. Certainly he's not good at it.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:11:00
Post by: Enigwolf
Melissia wrote:So... you're assuming that Orks will basically have to apply better tactics in order to win, because they're weaker in every other way.
So then, what happens if (when) there are not only more Space Marine players, who are playing stronger characters, but both sides are equally well led?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, I wonder if there's someone else on his team that might be better at talking about non-Space Marine lore. Certainly he's not good at it.
Give Miguel a break. I don't think English is his first language, and at least he's making the effort as the Studio Head to come down to talk to us here and on other forums. How many other game dev studio heads do you see do that? Especially outside their own forums, too. To respond to the first part, well, they get the Tyranid treatment more then!
I also forgot to mention, there was some side-talk about having early beta keys given to community members, hmm...
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:17:25
Post by: Melissia
Enigwolf wrote:I also forgot to mention, there was some side-talk about having early beta keys given to community members, hmm...
Shrug. Even if I am to give him a break, I hope you realize that I'm just one person, and that these kinds of "Sisters suck" or "Ork leaders are noobs", and the like, make it appear as if he doesn't really care that much about anyone who isn't playing a Space Marine. It reminds me of Wargame: ALB, whose French developers often seem to give a little too many buffs to the French units in that particular game-- HMM I wonder why! Hell, people accuse me of "hating" Space Marines despite my history of complimenting and listing certain Space Marine chapters as some of my favorite bits in the lore... So meh, I'd rather simply be blunt and honest now and hope for the best.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:20:20
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Man, I really hope they don't call nobs noobs in game...that would be hilarious in a bad way.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:24:37
Post by: Sigvatr
Melissia wrote:So... you're assuming that Orks will basically have to apply better tactics in order to win, because they're weaker in every other way.
So then, what happens if (when) there are not only more Space Marine players, who are playing stronger characters, but both sides are equally well led?
You have a very good point though: the paying players WILL be better led simply because those people really care for the game. And they got superior equipment / stuff.
Still: mind your tone. English isn't his native language and it's not a given that actual developers talk to (future) users. Ranting at him is the worst thing one can do. Sure, you don't like what he says. I don't like what he says either for some parts, but even, subjectively, bad news are better than no news.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:24:37
Post by: DemetriDominov
I'm not sure where Migeul specifically said "better tactics to win" Mel. He said that he's trying to account for the game's balance by having each side being equally capable, but not equal to each other.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:25:03
Post by: Melissia
That'd not the way I read it. He said Orks are weaker and so they'd need to have a good leader to win.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:25:15
Post by: Sigvatr
DemetriDominov wrote:I'm not sure where Migeul specifically said "better tactics to win" Mel. He said that he's trying to account for the game's balance by having each side being equally capable, but not equal to each other.
I guess she referred to the part where he talked about interrupting the enemy's supply line.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:39:54
Post by: Melissia
He talked about maximizing the Ork strengths and minimizing weaknesses, but Orks have not been stated to HAVE any particular strengths aside from numbers-- they're flat out weaker than Space Marines.
So take numbers away from them and they have... what, exactly?
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:49:47
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:That'd not the way I read it. He said Orks are weaker and so they'd need to have a good leader to win.
I'm assuming you're talking about the 2:1 - 3:1 ratio he updated in the other post defining Orks to be "weaker" than everyone else. Let's assume for the sake of argument that for some reason we get the worst possible outcome and that everyone buys the game, and not one person is going to do F2P. Also, the population of the player base is vastly unequal, with 1/3 of players on SM's, another 1/3 on CSM and the rest split between Orks and Eldar. It is likely that that all P2P characters are equal to each other in some fashion - either in armor ( SM/ CSM) Hp - Ork Nobs - or speed (Eldar). The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay. All we know is that it's not going to be the same between each race, and it's likely to be heavily influenced by the table top. If we're to assume anything, then let us assume the characteristics of each army rather than guess at statistics we have neither concrete knowledge of, or the analytic capabilities to interpret. Perhaps SM's and CSM are terrible at doing ambush tactics (or can't really at all apart from drop pods) because they can't hide like other races can. Sure, SM's and CSM's are powerful. They're like the Roman Legion efficient, lightning fast, and nigh unstoppable when brought to bear against an enemy when they themselves have been organized. Yet the German tribes and eventually most of the bar bar bar barbarians kicked their butts both on and off the battlefield. Those Orks that are paying to play are challenging to beat in combat even without their hordes of F2P characters, because they're 1:1 and at the very least they will be organized enough to make any faction suffer by their hands alone. That's not even accounting that 40k has massive explosions, mines, rockets, and other huge splash damage mechanics. And the Eldar? Faster, harder hitting guerrilla tactics, with stealth, mass teleportation and flying tanks? That's terrifying enough to allow them to be P2P on its own. Now add 1000's... if not 10's of thousands of F2P Orks and suddenly it doesn't even matter what the ratio is between the factions... the Orks are going to stomp on people's faces all day long because they'd have the tactical capabilities SM's don't, they'd have the numbers, and the sheer amount of dakka to crush everyone and everything in their way even if the boyz don't listen to which direction the Nobs are shouting for them to go. K, done editing lol.
45703
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:56:19
Post by: Lynata
So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?
I've said it before, but as this discussion keeps getting dragged out revolving around the same "worst case" prophecies again and again:
I'm much, much more worried about the Eldar, because - assuming Mel's projections are correct - this race will have to deal with the same Marine popularity as the Orks, but will not have access to a large supply of free players supporting the "core" of paying ones.
The way I see it, F2P hordes may work well as a balancing mechanic directing numbers into the less popular races to increase their chances on the battlefield, whilst still giving said F2P players an incentive to pay and join the aforementioned core.
Let's be brutally honest - if all races would be either pay-to-play or free-to-play, I think we all know which faction would have the most attendance. And that might get boring fast, even with the "Tyranid PvE" the Marines would have to deal with.
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 18:58:39
Post by: unmercifulconker
Thanks for the update Miguel!
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 19:07:58
Post by: Melissia
DemetriDominov wrote:The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay.
That does not equate to anything that might possibly remotely dispute anything I have said in this thread. Lynata wrote:So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?
Actually I'm working off the assumption that after a year or so (and that's being generous), the F2P players will be mostly scared off because they exist for no reason other than to be slaughtered by Space Marines or bossed around by paying Ork players-- the devs have openly expressed hatred and contempt for them and want them to suffer and gtfo out of their game.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 19:52:04
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote: DemetriDominov wrote:The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay.
That does not equate to anything that might possibly remotely dispute anything I have said in this thread.
Lynata wrote:So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?
Actually I'm working off the assumption that after a year or so (and that's being generous), the F2P players will be mostly scared off because they exist for no reason other than to be slaughtered by Space Marines or bossed around by paying Ork players-- the devs have openly expressed hatred and contempt for them and want them to suffer and gtfo out of their game.
Actually it does. For one thing, this ratio we've been disputing is still pretty vague. 2:1, 3:1, and even 5:1 doesn't really give a good description of how that number plays out apart that it means a F2P player either has to be smarter or play better than a P2P player if he wants to take him out on his own. Does the ratio mean in CC? At range? An overall mix between the two? How about when a SM steps on a landmine takes the dmg of one player, then by the same token get's hit by a rocket or an axe by that same player reducing the ratio to 1:1? Without knowledge of how this ratio is being determined it leaves a lot of room for interpretation that most of us are filling in with assumptions. Also, in SM the multiplayer mode was generally a game of ratio rock paper scissors (Tactical kills Assault, Assault kills Devastator, Devastator kills Tactical) The odds of a lesser class beating its superior (an Assault trying to kill a Tactical) was generally between 2:1 and 3:1. Meaning 2 Assault Marines: to 1 Tactical would have a great chance of succeeding and 3 Assault Marines : 1 Tactical being almost certain death for the Tactical Marine even if he would outright kill an Assault Marine the majority of the time 1:1.
With full access to the game apart from leadership roles, F2P players seem much more than just lambs to the slaughter Mel. I think really there hasn't been any hatred expressed by anyone on the dev team. Not even towards the Sisters, which I would take as a good sign if you plan on playing them in the future. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lynata wrote:So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?
I've said it before, but as this discussion keeps getting dragged out revolving around the same "worst case" prophecies again and again:
I'm much, much more worried about the Eldar, because - assuming Mel's projections are correct - this race will have to deal with the same Marine popularity as the Orks, but will not have access to a large supply of free players supporting the "core" of paying ones.
The way I see it, F2P hordes may work well as a balancing mechanic directing numbers into the less popular races to increase their chances on the battlefield, whilst still giving said F2P players an incentive to pay and join the aforementioned core.
Let's be brutally honest - if all races would be either pay-to-play or free-to-play, I think we all know which faction would have the most attendance. And that might get boring fast, even with the "Tyranid PvE" the Marines would have to deal with.
I agree with you to an extent. But remember, if this game is throwing whatever semblance of balance we're used to out the window, we can probably infer that each race will be very similar to how it works on TT. This means that the Eldar don't need huge numbers to be extremely effective on the battlefield. In fact, the smaller and more organized they are, the better they will work because they are faster and harder hitting than other armies. If deployed as a horde of unorganized Ork Boyz equivalents they will slow the army down and get smoked because they can't sustain the same amounts of damage the other races can.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:13:30
Post by: Melissia
They don't get that. They cannot advance beyond "Ork Boyz"-- they're eternally stuck as a starter class, as it were, and can never become stronger.
74901
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:14:00
Post by: miguelcaron
Dear Fans,
First, I took note of everybody that made fun of my Noobs vs Nobs LOL and I will see you on the battlefield where only the language of your blades matters. :-) I will take the time to review my orthograph next time I post and Yes french is my first language but NO nothing will be artificialy increase because I love Chaos.
Second, many of DemetriDominov assumptions are approximately correct. Please, dont worry too much about it, YOU (if you want to) will be part of early BETA's where we will test all the algorithm for balance with YOU until the majority is satisfied.
Regards
Miguel
Your Studio Head Behaviour Online.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:22:37
Post by: DemetriDominov
FLAKK YEA!
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:24:13
Post by: Sigvatr
To be fair, when the game is released, I expect most people trying to be funny to call nobs "noobs"
56307
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:29:43
Post by: unmercifulconker
My chainsword will be teethed and ready Miguel. We all know deep down everyone who stands against the Emperors legions are noobs destined to fall beneath foot and bullet.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:42:18
Post by: Sigvatr
unmercifulconker wrote:My chainsword will be teethed and ready Miguel. We all know deep down everyone who stands against the Emperors legions are noobs destined to fall beneath foot and bullet.
*nobs!
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:42:44
Post by: The Dark Apostle
oh yes! id love to be in the beta! and a fellow chaos warrior Miguel, we've got a lot to talk about.... if you want to join a chaos guild or just want info from a chaos fan perspective join the red corsairs. also from what im seeing here a dakka chaos will be a minority, hopefully there strong as chaos have the single strongest standard troop excluding the necrons (I think)
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:46:17
Post by: Enigwolf
...No they don't... lol. GKSS, GKT, Guardians/Dire Avengers, to name a few.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 20:46:23
Post by: Melissia
I'll probably take a look at the beta, but the fact that I'd be limited to only Eldar (I'm not interested in roleplaying as a dude for hundreds of hours, I've done that more than enough for one lifetime with all the games I've played tyvm) would probably make me lose interest really quickly.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:03:47
Post by: The Dark Apostle
I said standard troop, like baseline
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:06:11
Post by: Melissia
Please, the best standard baseline troop is the IG Platoon
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:06:22
Post by: Enigwolf
GKSS and GKTs outshoot and outmelee CSM. Guardians and Dire Avengers can run and shoot with Rending weapons in the same turn. Necrons can glance vehicles to death. All of this baseline.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:09:46
Post by: The Dark Apostle
Mellisia, if you are neither excited or in anyway interested in this game ten why do you post here? You annoy a lot of people and get us are aggressive and angry. Please just stop and acting like a troll I'll report if you don't stop. If you disagree with the game then don't post.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:10:59
Post by: Melissia
 The Dark Apostle wrote:Mellisia, if you are neither excited or in anyway interested in this game ten why do you post here?
Because I WANT to be excited and interested in this game.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:11:07
Post by: The Dark Apostle
And I meant on lore, I barely actually play a game of warhanmsr and prefer simply collecting and painting
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:11:32
Post by: Melissia
Again, in lore, IG platoons are better
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:15:01
Post by: The Dark Apostle
I know how you feel, when you want to want something a lot but it's got too many problems, I hate to say this cause people said it to me a lot and I hated it but just forget and come back see if it's better, if not, go back to forgetting it.
Your causing more damage than your trying to fix.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:16:25
Post by: Melissia
I don't particularly care. Let's get back on topic.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:19:52
Post by: The Dark Apostle
It seems your definition of on topic is asking for SoB constantly and arguing
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:30:12
Post by: DemetriDominov
Her concerns are legitimate. How would you feel if Chaos or SM's weren't implemented in the game at all? Instead only the SoB, Necrons, Tau, and Eldar? I'm sure that many people would be upset and others would be annoyed for the sole fact that although their army is included, those who "whine" that theirs aren't feel as though they've been shafted. It's constructive in the way that the devs need to address the fact that it may not be possible to invite everyone to the grand opening.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:31:19
Post by: Melissia
I'm not even complaining about a specific faction being excluded. If Tau and/or IG were included somehow, I'd have far less to complain about-- my complaints are that as someone who prefers to play female characters, I'm relegated to only playing a single faction.
Similarly, I am also complaining that they're actively hating on people who try playing for free, which will not encourage any of the free players to pay, it'll just make them play something else instead. They need to encourage them to pay, rather than effectively delivering a middle finger to them.
62374
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:38:13
Post by: The Dark Apostle
As player you are not limited, it's your opinion that you feel quite strong about. And I don't see a reason SoB should be added yet, maybe even in the first group of DLCs, there are more important and bigger factions. Just have them as skins for space marines
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:40:03
Post by: Melissia
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:46:47
Post by: Sigvatr
How aren't you limited? Having no Necrons at release means that I cannot play them and therefore, my choice is limited to the races you get at start.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:47:14
Post by: Melissia
The game will have two identical factions of only men, one faction of only drunk and ornery fungus men, and then elves who can be either men or women. My choices are limited to either roleplaying as if I am a dude for hundreds of hours, or playing space elves.
This is not a desirable outcome for me.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:48:50
Post by: Sigvatr
Technically, neither Orks nor Eldar are men / women. Hah!
13028
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:49:15
Post by: Weltenwolf
Substitute Tau with IG and I wouldn't mind. Female Kasrkin for me please. Nothing better than a violet eyed lady roasting heretics with her hellgun.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:50:14
Post by: Melissia
Sigvatr wrote:Technically, neither Orks nor Eldar are men / women. Hah!
Technically, Eldar do have males and females.
And Orks? Let's not delude ourselves. They are, according to the human psyche, male.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:52:01
Post by: Sigvatr
Correct, but they don't have men and women as those refer to mankind's males and females
Sorry to be nitpicky, just sleepy. Lady's out of town and I hang around on ze interwebz.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 21:54:27
Post by: JWhex
Melissia wrote: The Dark Apostle wrote:Mellisia, if you are neither excited or in anyway interested in this game ten why do you post here?
Because I WANT to be excited and interested in this game.
An example of your (Melissa) trolling is saying things like the developers have "hatred and contempt" for F2P players. This neither a rational, accurate nor fair characterization of what any of them have said. Many of your posts have cheap shots in them, even your posts that have something substantive often have some throw away insult in them.
While this game may or may not turn out to be something I eventually embrace I think the initial race/faction choice is completely sensible. Even though I am skeptical about the whole players as leaders and driving the whole system, I definitely applaud the developers for trying something new like this, they seem to really think they are on to something so I plan to at least give them the benefit of a doubt with a wait and see attitude.
I would still like to have the question answered about what happens when your faction is defeated but the campaign is still going on with other factions. Perhaps this is still up in the air?
I think the number of people that choose the Eldar will have a real impact on how fast and how deep the developers go into the background for additional factions. Indeed I still believe that one of the big hurdles the developers will have to overcome is getting people to play something other than marines. Of course there is not a lot you can do as a developer when the marines are already so popular. If people wont play Eldar, what is the probability they will play the Space Marines -1, err I mean Sisters of Battle.
For this game to do well it must draw in people who are not part of the 40K tabletop hobby. A large portion of this contingent is going to go for the marines and/or whatever faction is perceived as strongest in the game.
@Miguel
Here is an example of something I want: Alliances that are plausible within the framework of the background.
Chaos Marines allied with Space Marines is an IMMERSION KILLER for me.
Please note that the current ally matrix in the 6th edition book is not a good guide for what is plausible.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:01:33
Post by: Melissia
Sigvatr wrote: Correct, but they don't have men and women as those refer to mankind's males and females
That really depends on how you define the terms-- not all definitions of "women" include the specific descriptor "human", after all, allowing it to be applied to sentient aliens of the female persuasion-- such as Eldar. Mind you, I'm biased, I always liked playing as the Farseer in DoW2's last stand. Because spears are awesome, and what's better than a normal spear? A spear that is powered by pure willpower which can cut an opponent's soul in two in a single blow Hopefully the devs will include a wide variety of variant guns and close combat weapons for that exact reason-- everyone has that one wepaon that they think is just awesome.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:04:50
Post by: MandalorynOranj
Melissia, it really doesn't matter what you want to roleplay as. This isn't a roleplaying game. You trying to make it something it's not doesn't have much of a bearing on things.
Miguel, if you're still around, I've got a few questions about platforms. Is there any updated word about console releases, and if that is planned, would there be a beta for consoles as well as PC? Also, are you planning on releasing for Mac?
12313
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:08:52
Post by: Ouze
I will agree that I am a little disappointed there will be no female characters at launch, if indeed this is the case. For a child raised on Ripley; that is my archetype of a hero.
That being said, I would not consider Orks to be male, either - the whole concept of sexuality is as alien to us as they are to them.
What's this thing about giving the finger to F2P players? I confess, I have not read the last 36 or so pages.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:09:25
Post by: Melissia
It is a game where you spend hundreds of hours on a single character trying to level them up, gain in reputation and move up the social ladder, earn better equipment and snazzier armor, and so on and so forth.
Given the many people in this thread that want the game to be immersive, it's hard to argue that roleplaying is not going to be a big part of many peoples' enjoyment of it.
1406
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:15:46
Post by: Janthkin
Let's make sure the discussion remains on the topic of the game, please, and not the other posters in the thread.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:17:04
Post by: MandalorynOranj
Melissia wrote:It is a game where you spend hundreds of hours on a single character trying to level them up, gain in reputation and move up the social ladder, earn better equipment and snazzier armor, and so on and so forth.
Given the many people in this thread that want the game to be immersive, it's hard to argue that roleplaying is not going to be a big part of many peoples' enjoyment of it.
Maybe, but for most it's not the typical DnD-archetype of roleplaying. It's a bit more concrete form of playing a part in this huge army to achieve a goal, which is what's actually going on. It's more about taking the part of a soldier, or a sergeant, or a captain, than it is of becoming one with the actual character.
So that's cool if that's what you want to do, there's nothing stopping you from playing the game how you want. But that's obviously not what they have in mind. And before you say "there is something stopping me from playing it how I want, no Sisters!", that's not what I'm talking about, I'm just talking about the style. If it is the lack of Sisters or whatever, cool, more power to you, but don't put that on the developers. They've got their plate full as it is.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:19:16
Post by: Sigvatr
 Ouze wrote:I will agree that I am a little disappointed there will be no female characters at launch
Female characters at launch have been confirmed since Day 1.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:22:30
Post by: Melissia
Yes, just eldar. Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't make a distinction. Roleplaying is roleplaying. I've roleplayed as a female soldier plenty of times. Why shouldn't I desire to be able to do so here? I have not asked for Sisters, specifically and said I would not be happy unless they were in. Rather, I just ask for more factions that allow for female characters, to allow me to have more choice and not just be "the elf". Could be IG, could be Tau, hell, if they have different voice acting for male and female (and for them, that's ALL that would differ), could even be Necrons. Or it could be Sisters of Battle. Or all of the above.
62229
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:27:00
Post by: Minx
Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:27:30
Post by: Melissia
 Minx wrote:Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
We've already had people spaz out over the idea in this thread. Probably would cause too many aneurysms and too much nerdrage if it was implemented. I don't like Chaos Astartes in general, but even still, having the option to play as a female CSM would be better than not having it-- but I'm probably alone in holding that opinion in this thread.
62229
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:29:30
Post by: Minx
Melissia wrote: Minx wrote:Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
We've already had people spaz out over the idea in this thread. Probably would cause too many aneurysms and too much nerdrage if it was implemented.
They could pretend those are just Sisters of Battle while the Devs only implement different models without any special different rules.
Having no female characters for most factions will be hard to sell to the non-initiated.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:34:31
Post by: Melissia
Minx wrote:Having no female characters for most factions will be hard to sell to the non-initiated.
Yeah, they're setting themselves up for some bad mojo.
12313
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:36:10
Post by: Ouze
Sigvatr wrote: Ouze wrote:I will agree that I am a little disappointed there will be no female characters at launch
Female characters at launch have been confirmed since Day 1.
I should have been more specific, I meant female IG or other imperial. But that's cool too. I don't know nearly anything about Eldar so that actually would sort of give me a reason to play them.
13028
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:46:58
Post by: Weltenwolf
Melissia wrote: Minx wrote:Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
We've already had people spaz out over the idea in this thread. Probably would cause too many aneurysms and too much nerdrage if it was implemented.
I don't like Chaos Astartes in general, but even still, having the option to play as a female CSM would be better than not having it-- but I'm probably alone in holding that opinion in this thread.
No, you're not. WAR had male Dark Elf sorcerer, so why not female Marines in Eternal Crusade? A little bit of lore bending should be allowed. I would like to se Emperors Championess Siglinde giving the Emperors Peace to the poor aneurysm stricken fellows.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:50:12
Post by: Melissia
That's a fair point to be sure, regarding WAR. The things that pissed me off about WAR had nothing to do with lore bending (it was the other shenanigans...).
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:56:30
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Weltenwolf wrote: Melissia wrote: Minx wrote:Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
We've already had people spaz out over the idea in this thread. Probably would cause too many aneurysms and too much nerdrage if it was implemented.
I don't like Chaos Astartes in general, but even still, having the option to play as a female CSM would be better than not having it-- but I'm probably alone in holding that opinion in this thread.
No, you're not. WAR had male Dark Elf sorcerer, so why not female Marines in Eternal Crusade? A little bit of lore bending should be allowed. I would like to se Emperors Championess Siglinde giving the Emperors Peace to the poor aneurysm stricken fellows.
There's a precedence for a Dark Elf Sorcerer. His name is Malekith. There is no precedence for a female Marine.
60939
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 22:57:05
Post by: Enigwolf
I'm pretty sure that there's going to be an even larger uproar if you made female Marines compared to the Dark Elf Sorcerer.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:07:04
Post by: Melissia
I'm okay with that.
23071
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:10:09
Post by: MandalorynOranj
There's pretty strict fluff in place preventing female Marines from being a thing. Chaos could get away with it with some Warp-handwaving and something something corruption and desperation and magic, but not Loyalists. They've said they're big fans of the setting and the fluff and I expect they know to stay away from that.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:17:29
Post by: JWhex
Weltenwolf wrote: Melissia wrote: Minx wrote:Would female (chaos) space marines solve that problem or is that too much of a retcon / deviation from the current background?
We've already had people spaz out over the idea in this thread. Probably would cause too many aneurysms and too much nerdrage if it was implemented.
I don't like Chaos Astartes in general, but even still, having the option to play as a female CSM would be better than not having it-- but I'm probably alone in holding that opinion in this thread.
No, you're not. WAR had male Dark Elf sorcerer, so why not female Marines in Eternal Crusade? A little bit of lore bending should be allowed. I would like to se Emperors Championess Siglinde giving the Emperors Peace to the poor aneurysm stricken fellows.
Female marines can not be reasonably described as "bending the lore a little bit". It would destroy the immersion for most people that know anything about the background. I really am just not buying the line that Tau plus Eldar at launch is some huge improvement because then you have two possible female races and thus it is soooooo much better then. The Tau are strange looking descendants of bovine appearing herbivores, this helps your roleplaying as a female how?
If you want to roleplay as a female marine, Melissa, just keep your helmet on all the time. Problem solved and you also solve the problem of an over sexualized avatar. You can hardly tell most women from men solely by the shape of their torso in contemporary flak armour. Fully encased in Astartes power armour it would be impossible to tell whether the woman inside had female breasts and buttocks anyway.
You say you want to roleplay, so well then just do it. Its a pretend character in a pretend universe, if you can go along with all the craziness that is 40k it is hardly a big step to pretend that the character in a sexless suit of armour is a female.
THE REAL PURPOSE OF FEMALE CHARACTERS IN THE PROPOSED GAME. . . .
. . . is for men that want to role play as a female character or to just have a female avatar to look at while playing the game rather than a male avatar. If you think a lot of women are going to be playing this game, think again. Female players will be rarer in frequency than they are in the tabletop game.
So then, there really is no need for several female races at launch and there is no need to break the background with female marines or female chaos marines. Most men at launch that want to play a female character would probably choose an eldar female avatar over a Tau female based on the kinds of things that men like to oogle over, hands down, its not a contest.
This brings us back to the likely number of players that have a very strong desire for a female avatar, that number is very small and one faction at launch is more than enough to satisfy the need.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:33:29
Post by: Cheesecat
What the feth is this nonsense? The thing is with your space marine example other players aren't going to acknowledge that the Space Marine is a female as everyone knows it's really a dude under the suit and it's hard to imagine the Space marine being a female as it's going to be
voiced by male actors and not everyone is totally concerned about the looks of the female characters so female Tau having bovine qualities is not a concern. Also how do you know this game will have less women playing than the table top it hasn't even been released yet?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:42:43
Post by: Sigvatr
JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/07/03 23:45:29
Post by: Cheesecat
Sigvatr wrote:JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
I didn't know trolling meant having a different opinion than you.
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:11:42
Post by: JWhex
Cheesecat wrote: Sigvatr wrote:JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
I didn't know trolling meant having a different opinion than you.
Well then, you characterized my post as nonsense so I guess that makes you the troll doesnt it?
Also you are posting in a thread you havent read. I gave very good reasons based on published behavioral research why this game would have a vanishingly small number of female players.
If you want to evolve up from troll status maybe you should read that post and critique it with published literature references that contradict my own interpretations, till then you are blowing smoke out of your back pocket.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:16:00
Post by: Sigvatr
Cheesecat wrote: Sigvatr wrote:JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
I didn't know trolling meant having a different opinion than you.
I did not refer to you
71489
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:18:32
Post by: Troike
JWhex wrote:@Miguel
Here is an example of something I want: Alliances that are plausible within the framework of the background.
Chaos Marines allied with Space Marines is an IMMERSION KILLER for me.
He didn't really explain it as an alliance. More of a ceasefire wherein two factions temporarily put aside their differences to take out the other factions, before going and fighting each other all-out. In terms of table-top, maybe imagine it more like a "desperate allies" relationship rather than a "battle brothers" one?
Though granted, I share your feelings about it from a fluff perspective. It could result in some very lore-breaking combinations. I do, however, like the sound of a mechanic that allows politics like that, so I'm just about prepared to accept it, personally.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:31:40
Post by: Cheesecat
JWhex wrote: Cheesecat wrote: Sigvatr wrote:JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
I didn't know trolling meant having a different opinion than you.
Well then, you characterized my post as nonsense so I guess that makes you the troll doesnt it?
OK I'll admit my language was inflammatory.
Also you are posting in a thread you haven't read. I gave very good reasons based on published behavioral research why this game would have a vanishingly small number of female players.
Yes, the game may not be a big hit with females but you said that "Female players will be rarer in frequency than they are in the tabletop game" but since the game hasn't been released yet you can't know for certain if this is true or not. Also prove it, that I haven't been reading this thread, I dare you.
If you want to evolve up from troll status maybe you should read that post and critique it with published literature references that contradict my own interpretations, till then you are blowing smoke out of your back pocket.
Why would I need literature references to explain that people usually perceive space marines as male and that not everyone is super concerned about the physical appearance of female characters? Those aren't hard to believe statements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, OK still many people are to quick to call troll when it could just a case of differing views or being a contrarian you need to prove that the intent was to primarily inflame.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:50:05
Post by: Sigvatr
I fully agree and both of us have been around long enough to see it happen quite often - no offense taken here, still like you :*
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 00:58:34
Post by: JWhex
Cheesecat wrote:JWhex wrote: Cheesecat wrote: Sigvatr wrote:JWhex, don't take the baits. They might look delicious, but they aren't tasty.
I didn't know trolling meant having a different opinion than you.
Well then, you characterized my post as nonsense so I guess that makes you the troll doesnt it?
OK I'll admit my language was inflammatory.
Also you are posting in a thread you haven't read. I gave very good reasons based on published behavioral research why this game would have a vanishingly small number of female players.
Yes, the game may not be a big hit with females but you said that "Female players will be rarer in frequency than they are in the tabletop game" but since the game hasn't been released yet you can't know for certain if this is true or not. Also prove it, that I haven't been reading this thread, I dare you.
If you want to evolve up from troll status maybe you should read that post and critique it with published literature references that contradict my own interpretations, till then you are blowing smoke out of your back pocket.
Why would I need literature references to explain that people usually perceive space marines as male and that not everyone is super concerned about the physical appearance of female characters? Those aren't hard to believe statements.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, OK still many people are to quick to call troll when it could just a case of differing views or being a contrarian you need to prove that the intent was to primarily inflame.
OK I will take your dare because you proved for me you havent read the thread because my assertions about the likely frequency of female players has nothing to do with:
"Why would I need literature references to explain that people usually perceive space marines as male and that not everyone is super concerned about the physical appearance of female characters? Those aren't hard to believe statements."
If you had read the thread, including the post I am referring to you would not have made the statement quoted above unless you have recently inhaled a very large amount of smoke from burning the plant in your avatar.
36809
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 01:11:17
Post by: loota boy
When is the beta going to be available? And where will i be able to sign up? Will it be open or applicant-based?
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 01:19:36
Post by: Sigvatr
Probably a long way to go seeing that the release is due in almost 2.5 years and we haven't seen anything of the actual game yet
I'd say ~2 years.
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 01:20:43
Post by: Cheesecat
JWhex wrote:OK I will take your dare because you proved for me you havent read the thread because my assertions about the likely frequency of female players has nothing to do with:
"Why would I need literature references to explain that people usually perceive space marines as male and that not everyone is super concerned about the physical appearance of female characters? Those aren't hard to believe statements."
If you had read the thread, including the post I am referring to you would not have made the statement quoted above unless you have recently inhaled a very large amount of smoke from burning the plant in your avatar.
But talking about whether or not this game will be popular with females wasn't the only thing you also said, you said Mel could pretend she is a female space marine to which I said doesn't work because one it be will voiced by male actors and and two others will see the
space marine as a male character not a female, in order pass as the role of a certain gender you must be able to convince others that you or your character is that gender and if you can't then you haven't done a good performance on that gender role. You said this as well "I really am just
not buying the line that Tau plus Eldar at launch is some huge improvement because then you have two possible female races and thus it is soooooo much better then. The Tau are strange looking descendants of bovine appearing herbivores, this helps your roleplaying as a female
how?" too which I replied that not everyone is concerned about female Tau having bovine features and yes it does help Mel with playing a female because it gives her more female choices. Also if you click the "filter thread" button on my name you'll see I have been responding in this
thread for awhile and have at least read some of it.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 04:24:08
Post by: Melissia
Female marines can not be reasonably described as "bending the lore a little bit".
That assumes that one considers Space Marines to be a central, core part of 40k (I don't), and that having a penis is a core part of what it means to be a Space Marine (which is silly and makes me giggle). But let's not let this thread devolve in to people raging about female Space Marines again. And Cheesecat is right. The Space Marine will have a masculine voice, and so it will be immersion-breaking to try to pretend to be the space marine. I can deal with it and still enjoy the game to an extent I am quite sure (seeing as the overwhelming majority of games, including the ones in my library of games, have male protagonists, this goes without saying-- although apparently I still have to say it no matter how obvious it is, people are dense on this topic, go figure), but I have no desire to do so when I can play better games instead. Essentially, it's the same problem that CoD/Battlefield have. Why the feth would I want to play one of their games and have to force myself in to immersing as a dude when I could play a game like, say, Blacklight: Retribution, and NOT have to force myself in to immersing as a dude. They have failed go give a reason for me to give a feth so I'm not buying their most recent editions to their series. I have limited funds, and those funds must always go to games that have features I want instead of "features" I don't want, like "you get to play as generic mr. whitey mcblandypants who you don't give a damn about but the game wants you to pretend that you're him, IE 99% of all shooters today)..
28228
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 04:26:54
Post by: Cheesecat
Melissia wrote:Female marines can not be reasonably described as "bending the lore a little bit".
That assumes that one considers Space Marines to be a central, core part of 40k (I don't), and that having a penis is a core part of what it means to be a Space Marine (which is silly and makes me giggle).
But let's not let this thread devolve in to people raging about female Space Marines again.
It is atm, but it doesn't have to be.
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 05:24:50
Post by: DemetriDominov
There's really no argument to be had about bending lore or "imagining" female space marines. When I play SM, the character(s) I play are exact copies of the miniatures I own or would like to own because I have a stronger connection to them (Mel is therefore right about immersion). I suspect that those who invest a large amount of time in their game with ever higher amounts of customization do similar things. Its well established lore that SM's are male and forcing them not to be would simply shift this pendulum of an argument into the other field of opinion. (The boys are also right)
There are simpler solutions than trading this annoyance between our opinions of the Astartes. One chiefly being that it does not lie within the current path we tread....
Maybe we should think outside the box....
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 08:17:44
Post by: JWhex
Melissia wrote:Female marines can not be reasonably described as "bending the lore a little bit".
That assumes that one considers Space Marines to be a central, core part of 40k (I don't), and that having a penis is a core part of what it means to be a Space Marine (which is silly and makes me giggle).
.
Melissa, I am more than sure you are very well educated and intelligent but comments like the one above really are discredit to you and make you look foolish.
Like it or Space Marines are a central and core part of 40k, to say otherwise is just asinine, and your case it is trolling because as I said you are obviously a smart person and know that they are central and core to the IP.
And no, having a penis is not core to what it means to be a space marine. Indeed this actually an extremely sexist remark to make and I am calling you on it not because it offends me but it is extremely hypocritical and sexist of you. It is no different than for a man to say, "a clitoris is a core part of what it means to be a woman (or Sister of Battle)". This is a perfect example where your purely contrarian approach to discussing 40k has led you to say something completely boneheaded.
Actually no one knows whether Space Marines have a functional penis and indeed the process of going from normal human to space marine could very well shrivel up their penis and testicles and make them giggleworthy. The absence of any attraction to human females has been a nearly constant feature of the background since the beginning and I am still waiting for someone such as yourself to invent something like the "Raging Eunuchs" chapter.
My son used to say a lot of outrageous things like you do, or something that was just contradictory for no other reason than to be contrary.
The problem is I cant take you seriously, and I am sure many others dont because you simply are being a contrarian.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 08:35:12
Post by: Sigvatr
The entire female Space Marine discussion is a joke and I did not even expect Melissia to come up with such complete nonsense. Not only do you deny the fact that SM are the core of 40k (....what.), you would also take completely breaking the game's lore into consideration just for your very own selfish needs?
Wow.
If anyone feels offended for not having a female option, that person is wrong to begin with as there ARE female characters, that person does not realize that females are FAR from being the target audience for the game and that person does not realize that the world doesn't turn around him- / herself.
Everyone has issues with the game, I am 100% sure on that. If those issues, however, should make you turn your back at the game...so be it. Not your type of game?
#dealwithit
In regards to the actual game, I'd be interested in the scope - will we have persistent maps? Will we have different maps that are somehow connected e.g. via portals or is there one persistent world where I could e.g. walk from one end to the other?
I'd prefer the latter but it'd be extremely hard to focus on certain parts of the world in order to have crowded battlefields. Guild Wars 2, imo, did a great job at it.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:00:44
Post by: purplefood
Space Marines aren't the core of 40k but they are probably the most iconic part of it...
It'd be nice to have male and female options in the factions where that applies... even though that's almost only guard...
It'd be better to have the various parts of the Imperium as classes and spec into certain roles rather than standalone factions.
E.g. I make a female Imperial. The classes availible to me are, Inquisitor, Guardsman, Sister of Battle and Mechanicus Adept. I choose Sister of Battle and can then spec into certain roles such as celestian or seraphim.
Not entirely sure how workable it would be for other factions though...
Maybe different bonuses for different clans/septs/craftworlds or a special class for different chaos warbands...
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:03:08
Post by: Sigvatr
I think that this is both the most reasonable way to work it out and is the most likely thing to happen.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:05:18
Post by: purplefood
It might be reasonable but I have doubts as to whether it's the most likely course...
71201
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:28:48
Post by: JWhex
Sigvatr wrote:The entire female Space Marine discussion is a joke and I did not even expect Melissia to come up with such complete nonsense. Not only do you deny the fact that SM are the core of 40k (....what.), you would also take completely breaking the game's lore into consideration just for your very own selfish needs?
Wow.
If anyone feels offended for not having a female option, that person is wrong to begin with as there ARE female characters, that person does not realize that females are FAR from being the target audience for the game and that person does not realize that the world doesn't turn around him- / herself.
Everyone has issues with the game, I am 100% sure on that. If those issues, however, should make you turn your back at the game...so be it. Not your type of game?
#dealwithit
In regards to the actual game, I'd be interested in the scope - will we have persistent maps? Will we have different maps that are somehow connected e.g. via portals or is there one persistent world where I could e.g. walk from one end to the other?
I'd prefer the latter but it'd be extremely hard to focus on certain parts of the world in order to have crowded battlefields. Guild Wars 2, imo, did a great job at it.
There is an old saying, "Beyond the Pale". That is pretty much where Melissa has gone, and for no good reason.
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:54:03
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 purplefood wrote:Space Marines aren't the core of 40k but they are probably the most iconic part of it...
Technically, they are. The Imperium of Man, which the setting is based around, was formed after the Horus Heresy, wherein nearly half of the Space Marine Legions went traitor. That's a pretty big event for a faction that isn't core to 40k. Granted, they may not be the core, you could argue that claim goes to the IoM itself, but they certainly play a big role in the setting.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 09:57:14
Post by: Sigvatr
I mostly referred to SM being GW posterboys. The only logical conclusion therefor is to maintain that focus.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 10:08:40
Post by: purplefood
CthuluIsSpy wrote: purplefood wrote:Space Marines aren't the core of 40k but they are probably the most iconic part of it...
Technically, they are. The Imperium of Man, which the setting is based around, was formed after the Horus Heresy, wherein nearly half of the Space Marine Legions went traitor. That's a pretty big event for a faction that isn't core to 40k. Granted, they may not be the core, you could argue that claim goes to the IoM itself, but they certainly play a big role in the setting.
It was half the Space Marine Legions, half the mechanicus, half the titan legios, half the navy and half the imperial army... It was not a Space Marine only event, the SM led the rebellion though which is fairly important but even so they aren't the core of 40k. They are certainly iconic or poster boys as Sig says but there isn't any 1 faction which is the core of 40k. I don't think it's logical for them to keep focussing on SM when there is so much you can do aside from them...
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 10:15:33
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
purplefood wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: purplefood wrote:Space Marines aren't the core of 40k but they are probably the most iconic part of it...
Technically, they are. The Imperium of Man, which the setting is based around, was formed after the Horus Heresy, wherein nearly half of the Space Marine Legions went traitor. That's a pretty big event for a faction that isn't core to 40k. Granted, they may not be the core, you could argue that claim goes to the IoM itself, but they certainly play a big role in the setting.
It was half the Space Marine Legions, half the mechanicus, half the titan legios, half the navy and half the imperial army... It was not a Space Marine only event, the SM led the rebellion though which is fairly important but even so they aren't the core of 40k. They are certainly iconic or poster boys as Sig says but there isn't any 1 faction which is the core of 40k. I don't think it's logical for them to keep focussing on SM when there is so much you can do aside from them...
Good point. Would the Horus Heresy have happened though without the Space Marines? I agree though they need to focus on more factions other than the Space Marines. Adeptus Arbites would be interesting.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 10:54:58
Post by: purplefood
Arbites would be pretty cool but it would be an after thought...
I'd prefer they had all the factions get good starting classes etc before they added something like arbites...
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 14:26:49
Post by: Melissia
purplefood wrote:Arbites would be pretty cool but it would be an after thought...
I'd prefer they had all the factions get good starting classes etc before they added something like arbites...
Arbites aren't an army per se anyway, they're basically like super-FBI or something.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 15:49:16
Post by: purplefood
Melissia wrote: purplefood wrote:Arbites would be pretty cool but it would be an after thought...
I'd prefer they had all the factions get good starting classes etc before they added something like arbites...
Arbites aren't an army per se anyway, they're basically like super-FBI or something.
Yeah that was my thinking but if they added them I wouldn't be annoyed. There are times when Arbites have fought in battles...
They're better equipped than most guardsmen actually...
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 15:54:12
Post by: Melissia
Technically, a child playing with nerf guns and cardboard armor is better equipped in the eyes of many internet denizens
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 15:56:39
Post by: purplefood
I know people like to joke but Guardsmen are usually well equipped and for the most part well trained.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 16:15:05
Post by: Sigvatr
I always considered Guardsman to be the average aka normal humans in armor. The problem stems from MEQ being all over the place aka super soldierz.
/e:...and, of course, badass killer robots.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 16:21:19
Post by: purplefood
Pretty much yeah...
Guardsmen are regular people who more often than not fight rebels which are usually just regular humans. The problem comes when they end up fighting 'nids, orks, traitor marines etc
It'd be interesting if they gave you a squad of guardsmen instead of just one character. You could customise it like you would customise a single character but instead you could have a couple of special weapons and some regular to add firepower.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 16:24:59
Post by: AWesker1976
purplefood wrote:Pretty much yeah...
Guardsmen are regular people who more often than not fight rebels which are usually just regular humans. The problem comes when they end up fighting 'nids, orks, traitor marines etc
It'd be interesting if they gave you a squad of guardsmen instead of just one character. You could customise it like you would customise a single character but instead you could have a couple of special weapons and some regular to add firepower.
Most people mention playing as these "squads" of Guardsmen instead of a single one. The Ai of the IG under your squad is likely to be so piss poor that accomplishing basic things will be a feat in itself and do little but to drive people away from the faction entirely.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 16:26:11
Post by: Sigvatr
purplefood wrote:
It'd be interesting if they gave you a squad of guardsmen instead of just one character. You could customise it like you would customise a single character but instead you could have a couple of special weapons and some regular to add firepower.
Pretty sure that's not going to happen
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 16:40:24
Post by: purplefood
AWesker1976 wrote: purplefood wrote:Pretty much yeah...
Guardsmen are regular people who more often than not fight rebels which are usually just regular humans. The problem comes when they end up fighting 'nids, orks, traitor marines etc
It'd be interesting if they gave you a squad of guardsmen instead of just one character. You could customise it like you would customise a single character but instead you could have a couple of special weapons and some regular to add firepower.
Most people mention playing as these "squads" of Guardsmen instead of a single one. The Ai of the IG under your squad is likely to be so piss poor that accomplishing basic things will be a feat in itself and do little but to drive people away from the faction entirely.
If they make it so they form up around your central character (The sergeant lets say) then they could simply hold that formation whenever you move and then they could just fire at what you fire at...
Think of it less like 1 player and 4 AI and more like 1 player and 4 puppets. They do the exact same actions as the player barring a few path finding traits so they don't walk off of edges and such...
There could be some cool features of this...
Each guardsman represents a specific part of your health. If you have a squad of 5 for example each one represents 20% of your overall health. When you get to 80% one of them dies and your firepower gets cut down by 1/5th
74901
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:10:06
Post by: miguelcaron
Dear fans, This whole discussion about females made me think of asking you a personal question that has been nagging me for a long time and where I did not find any info in any of the Codex:
I know Orcs are kind of mushroom and reproduce by spores but........ What is their life cycles? do they grow like worns underground? Does ANY of them produce live spores (like any limb you hack can regrow?!?! but if its the case... how does it eat to actually grow?)
Its has nothing to do with the game (yet!! :-) ) but I am just curious.
Same for other races, the dev are 50-50 spit in the opinion that spacemarine have no reproductive organes.
Is this kept in the dark (no pun intended) on purpose?
Miguel
Your Studio Head
p.s. Trust a french canadian to ask a sex question LOL
47547
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:15:49
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
An ork constantly spawns spores throughout it's lifecycle. You know how the human body constantly sheds bits of dead skin? Well, orks do the same, except their's are airborne, and tend to grow into new orks if they land on something they can grow on.
Killing an ork will also create spores, but they will release a much larger amount than usual. The only way to prevent this is to KILL IT WITH FIRE (sorry, had to do that).
A spore has a chance to grow into the following: Ork, Snotling, Gretchin or squig. Not sure how it's determined, but I think it depends on the environment and resources available. A spore starts off like a simple fungus, but later on a greenskin (collective term for the Ork genus. See above for example) will start to grow underground in a uterus like cocoon. You can find drawings of it in the 3rd edition Ork codex, iirc.
I'm not sure what happens if you eat Ork flesh. I would imagine it tastes horrible though.
Orks can not regenerate per se, but they can reattach their limbs and organs with a bit of crude surgery. They also constantly shed and grow teeth throughout their life cycle, which they use as currency.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:19:56
Post by: AWesker1976
miguelcaron wrote:Dear fans, This whole discussion about females made me think of asking you a personal question that has been nagging me for a long time and where I did not find any info in any of the Codex:
I know Orcs are kind of mushroom and reproduce by spores but........ What is their life cycles? do they grow like worns underground? Does ANY of them produce live spores (like any limb you hack can regrow?!?! but if its the case... how does it eat to actually grow?)
Its has nothing to do with the game (yet!! :-) ) but I am just curious.
Same for other races, the dev are 50-50 spit in the opinion that spacemarine have no reproductive organes.
Is this kept in the dark (no pun intended) on purpose?
Miguel
Your Studio Head
p.s. Trust a french canadian to ask a sex question LOL
According to the Ork Codex: An Ork's demise triggers a mass release of spores that can develop into dozens of cocoons. These Cocoons can hatch gretchin, grots or fungi depending on conditions. a good number will develop into Orks after a short gestation. These spores are dispersed far and wide by winds, which makes the eradication of the greenskin presences impossible to effect short of Exterminatus.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:38:51
Post by: Sigvatr
Necrons have a male - female ratio of 0:0.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:43:39
Post by: purplefood
Neither Orks or Necrons have a gender.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:44:41
Post by: Melissia
We don't know if Necrons had a gender. Their bodies may not have a gender any more, but psychologically, especially in the upper echelons of their rule, their minds may still hold on to some of their own unique gender constructs. Orks technically don't have a gender, but we'd be deluding ourselves to think of them as anything but masculine when viewed from the human psyche. miguelcaron wrote:I know Orcs are kind of mushroom and reproduce by spores but........ What is their life cycles? do they grow like worns underground? Does ANY of them produce live spores (like any limb you hack can regrow?!?! but if its the case... how does it eat to actually grow?)
Every Ork contains the DNA of every other orkoid species. Based off of the Ork codex and other bits and pieces of lore I've read, this is how the Orkoid life cycle goes, based off of having a single Ork spore land on a planet's surface: • Orkoid fungus grows. This releases more spores as it lives and dies, producing more fungus. • As fungus population gets to a certain density, squigs begin to form from some of the spores instead of fungus. They also release more spores as they live and die. • As the fungus/squig population gets to a certain density, Snotlings begin to form from some of the spores. They tend the fungus and squigs, effectively being almost childlike farmers/ranchers for the Orks and ensuring that the upcoming Orkoid races have a steady food supply. Also, they release more spores as they live and die. • As the Snotling/Squig/fungus population gets to a certain density, Grots begin to form from some of the spores. Grots are the builders of the Ork society, creating structures and infrastructure, as well as guns and the like, and watching over the (mentally, rather childlike) Snotlings. They also release more spores as they live and die. • As the Orkoid population reaches a certain density, Orks begin to form from some of the spores. These Orks are the leaders, the warriors, and the soldiers of the Orkoid society, and they exist only for war. They live, breathe, and to some extent, gain sustenance from war-- becoming bigger and stronger after every fight, every race, every violent brawl (and they have them constantly). The very idea of peace is alien to the Ork psychology. Orks release spores all throughout their life, but upon death, they release a massive amount of spores, ensuring that the Ork population is almost impossible to truly wipe out. • Certain unique Orks, when the population grows past a certain size, instinctively "know" the basic fundamentals of certain crafts-- such as a Mekboy understanding the basics of engineering, and Painboyz understanding rudimentary medical science, and Weirdboyz being able to manipulate the WAAAGH! energies. There's other, more minor crafts as well mind you, like Brewboyz and the like. Most however, are just "boyz". This probably also is the reason why some Orks become Kommandoz, Stormboyz, Tankbustaz, and the like, as well. • Eventually, when an Ork gets strong enough, experienced enough, and just plain out vicious enough, the Ork becomes a Nob (or equivalent-- such as a Big Mek or Mad Dok, or certain very experienced Weirdboyz). Nob is more of a social status than anything-- the biggest, meanest ,and nastiest Ork around is the Nob. And the biggest, meanest, and nastiest Nob around is the Warboss. Usually the warboss is also the most experienced and intelligent, as well-- Orks become "bigger" the more they fight, and so the one who has fought the most and been victorious the most will naturally rise to the top. • As the Orkoid population grows even more in size and density, Orks become inspired to do greater things-- such as Stompas, their version of Titans, and eventually space travel and the massive migration/holy war/pub crawl that is the WAAAGH! invasions that we know and love, like Armageddon. Many of this is also because Orks have a unique psychic presence-- the "WAAAGH!", the gestalt psychic field that all Orkoid species generate (and which is also one of the suggested reasons why Orks are so innately resistant to Chaos) binds the Orks and lets them recognize another Ork and tell when an Ork is not Orky enough, or when an Ork is "bigger" and thus should be the leader (violence also helps). Weirdboyz feed off of this WAAAGH! energy for their psychic powers, and as a result, they are more powerful the larger number of boyz around them. Orks become more confident, more fearless, and (in the case of the leaders) arguably more cunning and intelligent as the Orkoid population becomes larger and more dense.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:45:26
Post by: purplefood
Orks are the perfect biological weapon. Brilliantly designed and incredibly well engineered.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:51:46
Post by: Melissia
Yep. That's why Orks dominate the galaxy and every other race fights over hte remaining scraps.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:52:08
Post by: AWesker1976
I always assumed the Orks were resistant to Chaos because Chaos could offer nothing to the Ork that he doesn't already have access to.
Carnal desires of the flesh don't interest an Ork like it would a human/eldar/spess murheen.
Orks have the perfect society as well as being a perfect organism. Poverty is unheard of in Ork "kultur". Due to their genetic ability to specialize in certain crafts there is no Ork unemployment. There are no double talking lawyers in the Ork world so they don't have libraries full of confusing, convoluted laws so keeping order is as simple as smashing a boy over the head and telling him "quit dat".
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 17:56:04
Post by: Melissia
AWesker1976 wrote:I always assumed the Orks were resistant to Chaos because Chaos could offer nothing to the Ork that he doesn't already have access to.
That's also true. I did mean to say that it was only one of the potential reasons. There's likely a large number of reasons why Orks don't turn to Chaos and aren't as effected by the raw energies of the Warp.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:03:49
Post by: Sigvatr
Melissia wrote:We don't know if Necrons had a gender. Their bodies may not have a gender any more, but psychologically, especially in the upper echelons of their rule, their minds may still hold on to some of their own unique gender constructs.
Necrons never had and will never have a gender. They are soul- and mindless robots. The Necrontyr might have had a gender but that's a LONG time ago. Like, really long.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:35:50
Post by: AWesker1976
Sigvatr wrote: Melissia wrote:We don't know if Necrons had a gender. Their bodies may not have a gender any more, but psychologically, especially in the upper echelons of their rule, their minds may still hold on to some of their own unique gender constructs.
Necrons never had and will never have a gender. They are soul- and mindless robots. The Necrontyr might have had a gender but that's a LONG time ago. Like, really long.
I believe there is some confusion here related to the distinction between sex ( anatomy ) and gender ( cultural/social lifestyle )
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:37:38
Post by: purplefood
There's probably neither for the majority of Necrons...
They had both a sex and a gender but currently...
Well currently they have neither... most of them anyway.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:41:31
Post by: Sigvatr
AWesker1976 wrote: Sigvatr wrote: Melissia wrote:We don't know if Necrons had a gender. Their bodies may not have a gender any more, but psychologically, especially in the upper echelons of their rule, their minds may still hold on to some of their own unique gender constructs.
Necrons never had and will never have a gender. They are soul- and mindless robots. The Necrontyr might have had a gender but that's a LONG time ago. Like, really long.
I believe there is some confusion here related to the distinction between sex ( anatomy ) and gender ( cultural/social lifestyle )
Nope
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:43:57
Post by: DemetriDominov
As far as Space Marine lore is concerned, the Astartes are eunuchs. Once men, their manhood has been removed and utterly consumed by his new purpose as defenders of humanity. Whether the Astartes physically still has a penis is (to my knowledge at least) never actually explained, but is maddeningly perplexing because of two reasons:
The first, is that a SM takes massive doses of hormones, one of which suppresses sexual desire. Sexual desire is primarily caused by testosterone and its byproducts created largely by sex organs and in small amounts in the adrenal glads. This really could mean that an Astarte may or may not have a penis because SM's have huge.... adrenal glands... that may produce enough testosterone on their own to need hormone therapy.
The second: is the implantation of the Gene Seed that is required exclusively to create more Adeptus Astartes. Meaning that if a SM already has the means to create more of his brethren, is exclusive property to his chapter and Emperor, then what purpose does his steroid shrunk balls serve other than to bounce annoyingly between his sweaty thighs?
Hmm.. drink that image in Frenchman... sweaty... hairy.... thighs...
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:46:18
Post by: Melissia
DemetriDominov wrote:As far as Space Marine lore is concerned, the Astartes are eunuchs. Once men, their manhood has been removed and utterly consumed by his new purpose as defenders of humanity. Whether the Astartes physically still has a penis is (to my knowledge at least) never actually explained, but is maddeningly perplexing because of two reasons: The first, is that a SM takes massive doses of hormones, one of which suppresses sexual desire. Sexual desire is primarily caused by testosterone and its byproducts created largely by sex organs and in small amounts in the adrenal glads. This really could mean that an Astarte may or may not have a penis because SM's have huge.... adrenal glands... that may produce enough testosterone on their own to need hormone therapy. The second: is the implantation of the Gene Seed that is required exclusively to create more Adeptus Astartes. Meaning that if a SM already has the means to create more of his brethren, is exclusive property to his chapter and Emperor, then what purpose does his steroid shrunk balls serve other than to bounce annoyingly between his sweaty thighs? Hmm.. drink that image in Frenchman... sweaty... hairy.... thighs...
And yet, they will have male voice actors and they will have male grunts, heavy breathing, shouts, screams, and they will have a male voice when speaking. So to me, as a player ,they will have the exact same effect as playing a male character. Not all of us are so inattentive as to not notice such immersion-breaking things like that. Technically, Asari weren't female because they didn't have genders (even less than Astartes)-- reproducing through an entirely different method. Yet they are still regarded as female by anyone who looks at them or listens to them talk.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:46:43
Post by: purplefood
Sigvatr wrote:AWesker1976 wrote: Sigvatr wrote: Melissia wrote:We don't know if Necrons had a gender. Their bodies may not have a gender any more, but psychologically, especially in the upper echelons of their rule, their minds may still hold on to some of their own unique gender constructs.
Necrons never had and will never have a gender. They are soul- and mindless robots. The Necrontyr might have had a gender but that's a LONG time ago. Like, really long.
I believe there is some confusion here related to the distinction between sex ( anatomy ) and gender ( cultural/social lifestyle )
Nope
Yeah Necrons for all intents and purposes are zombies...
Some of the higher up ones still have a personality and thus gender but most of them have nothing.
30012
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:47:46
Post by: AWesker1976
DemetriDominov wrote:As far as Space Marine lore is concerned, the Astartes are eunuchs. Once men, their manhood has been removed and utterly consumed by his new purpose as defenders of humanity. Whether the Astartes physically still has a penis is (to my knowledge at least) never actually explained, but is maddeningly perplexing because of two reasons:
The first, is that a SM takes massive doses of hormones, one of which suppresses sexual desire. Sexual desire is primarily caused by testosterone and its byproducts created largely by sex organs and in small amounts in the adrenal glads. This really could mean that an Astarte may or may not have a penis because SM's have huge.... adrenal glands... that may produce enough testosterone on their own to need hormone therapy.
The second: is the implantation of the Gene Seed that is required exclusively to create more Adeptus Astartes. Meaning that if a SM already has the means to create more of his brethren, is exclusive property to his chapter and Emperor, then what purpose does his steroid shrunk balls serve other than to bounce annoyingly between his sweaty thighs?
Hmm.. drink that image in Frenchman... sweaty... hairy.... thighs...
Maybe the lack of a sex drive is due to the harsh psychological indoctrination that is forced upon all marine recruits, then coupled with the watchful eyes of Chaplains to steer marines away from "pleasures of the flesh" to ensure the recruits don't follow their lusts into heresy.
50832
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:53:18
Post by: Sigvatr
Melissia wrote: Technically, Asari weren't female because they didn't have genders (even less than Astartes)-- reproducing through an entirely different method. Yet they are still regarded as female by anyone who looks at them or listens to them talk.
They got giant boobs. Giant boobs that grow even BIGGER as they grow up. Stay classy, Bioware. What's the reasoning for them having boobs anyway btw? Are Asari acting similar to men, i.e. are attracted to big jugs?
57210
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:55:26
Post by: DemetriDominov
Melissia wrote:And yet, they will have male voice actors and they will have male grunts, heavy breathing, shouts, screams, and they will have a male voice when speaking.
So to me, as a player ,they will have the exact same effect as playing a male character. Not all of us are so inattentive as to not notice such immersion-breaking things like that.
Technically, Asari weren't female because they didn't have genders (even less than Astartes)-- reproducing through an entirely different method. Yet they are still regarded as female by anyone who looks at them or listens to them talk.
That's because male Eunichs are still male. It's just that they no longer have balls and a means to reproduce heirs of their own.
AWesker1976 wrote:
Maybe the lack of a sex drive is due to the harsh psychological indoctrination that is forced upon all marine recruits, then coupled with the watchful eyes of Chaplains to steer marines away from "pleasures of the flesh" to ensure the recruits don't follow their lusts into heresy.
I believe that's in addition to their "harsh training" and hormone therapy. We all know that unless you're combating a hormone driven condition (like depression, sexual desire, ect.) you are likely to relapse or commit some sort of heresy. In the case of heavily indoctrinated individuals, it usually takes the form of acting out. One cannot deny themselves humanity without removing it entirely. Faith alone cannot do that, but it definitely acts a great catalyst once the deed of destroying your previous manhood has been done.
29408
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:55:29
Post by: Melissia
Sigvatr wrote:They got giant boobs. Giant boobs that grow even BIGGER as they grow up. Stay classy, Bioware. What's the reasoning for them having boobs anyway btw? Are Asari acting similar to men, i.e. are attracted to big jugs?
Yeaaah, Bioware's handling of Asari was questionable in a hundred different ways and I am not going to drag this topic off topic again by getting in to THAT conversation.
27391
40k MMO @ 2013/07/04 18:55:42
Post by: purplefood
Melissia wrote:
Technically, Asari weren't female because they didn't have genders (even less than Astartes)-- reproducing through an entirely different method. Yet they are still regarded as female by anyone who looks at them or listens to them talk.
True, but they are assigned the female gender in our eyes because that's how we perceive them
|
|
