A Kill Team expansion with Orks or another of their one-off board games would be perfect for plastic Kommandoz and Tankbustaz. Remember when Orks/Greenskins were everywhere and one of THE enemies in all sort of boxes? Those were the days. In general KT could be a good way to push out a variety of odd kits that needed an occassion for release, but I guess GW would rather use it as a terrain dump.
Koptaz as an ETB expansion would make sense as well. But releasing them as a kit in the first place (as well as Bloodhounds, Chosen, servitors, SoBs etc.)
Its also worth keeping in perspective here that, if the rumors are correct, we are looking at six or seven new kits (lowest would be five, if the squig wagon and trakk turn out to be multi-kits with one of the already seen buggies).
Even if it is five, this is the biggest xenos army model release since the relaunch of necrons. Bigger than the latest wave of Tau. Bigger than the latest wave of tyranids. Bigger than the GSC army release. Bigger than the Primaris Marines army release. And even if the Trike isn't a one-for-one replacement for the biker boss (spoiler alert, it is highly likely that it will be a mobile character with Waaagh in the HQ slot, just with different wargear...) all this stuff still exists in the index and we don't even know if it's being removed yet.
IMO we are likely to see the index-izing of the biker HQ options, possibly the big gunz, but I'd bet Nob Bikers stick around as there is technically 1 nob per three bikers in the biker kit.
I hope big gunz aren't gone. I have 3 that I built from lascannons, a zzap gun, a grot kit, foam board, toothpicks, plasticard and bases. I'm quite fond of them. Are they effective? feth no, zzap guns were crap in 5th ed, which is when I built them. Still cool though. The no model = no rules policy doesn't make sense, especially when it comes to orks. They are the kitbash faction, so such a policy is anathema to them. I hope GW understands that...their legal team or whatever probably don't though, which is why such a stupid policy exists.
the_scotsman wrote: Its also worth keeping in perspective here that, if the rumors are correct, we are looking at six or seven new kits (lowest would be five, if the squig wagon and trakk turn out to be multi-kits with one of the already seen buggies).
That's why the buggies will probably be 2 combo kits.
the_scotsman wrote: Its also worth keeping in perspective here that, if the rumors are correct, we are looking at six or seven new kits (lowest would be five, if the squig wagon and trakk turn out to be multi-kits with one of the already seen buggies).
That's why the buggies will probably be 2 combo kits.
All three buggies we've seen so far have had entirely different kits. If you can pick out parts on them that appear to be shared, by all means pick them out, but earlier in the thread people were trying and failing to find shared features.
So, unless the buggies are three combo-kits, and the Squig buggy, Trakk buggy, and Trike are the three secondary kits, we're seeing at least four (can't see a buggy that combos to a building) and I think it's unlikely from what we've seen of the trike that it's a combo kit.
Aren't the engine air intakes the same on all of them? And the wheels of the Kustom boosta-blasta look like they're the same ones as on the Boomdakka snazz-wagon
PiñaColada wrote: Aren't the engine air intakes the same on all of them? And the wheels of the Kustom boosta-blasta look like they're the same ones as on the Boomdakka snazz-wagon
The air intake on the engines of the boosta blasta and snazzwagon I can believe are the same (different angle, but they both appear to have a "lip" around the edge that is about the same shape) but the intake on the one with the heavy turret (forget what that one is called) is different.
The wheels are totally different between blasta and snazzwagon. There's a picture of the three of them together in the region of page 25 or so. They have different inner wheels and different tires.
If the dragracer and the snazzwagon do turn out to be dual kits, they're the most cunning dang dual kits I've ever seen in my life, as they only appear to share a single component that I can see. I could see them all having a shared undercarriage sprue and then everything exterior to that is on its own sprue, but that would be about it at the moment.
That'd be an idea I could definitely get behind though. We know how much mileage GW gets out of the rhino sprue.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
Ork players are more likely than most to kitbash/convert etc so GW will either want to go the easy build route with minimal spares in each box or enough shared parts that most stuff gets used up
If they do a shared chassis that's dressed up in multiple ways with loads of spares in the box it will mean lots of people making their own chassis as less money in
(i'd love to be proved wrong as that's just what i'd do)
PiñaColada wrote: Aren't the engine air intakes the same on all of them? And the wheels of the Kustom boosta-blasta look like they're the same ones as on the Boomdakka snazz-wagon
The air intake on the engines of the boosta blasta and snazzwagon I can believe are the same (different angle, but they both appear to have a "lip" around the edge that is about the same shape) but the intake on the one with the heavy turret (forget what that one is called) is different.
The wheels are totally different between blasta and snazzwagon. There's a picture of the three of them together in the region of page 25 or so. They have different inner wheels and different tires.
If the dragracer and the snazzwagon do turn out to be dual kits, they're the most cunning dang dual kits I've ever seen in my life, as they only appear to share a single component that I can see. I could see them all having a shared undercarriage sprue and then everything exterior to that is on its own sprue, but that would be about it at the moment.
That'd be an idea I could definitely get behind though. We know how much mileage GW gets out of the rhino sprue.
Well, to be completly honest I was just listing things from memory. The wheels of the kustom boosta-blasta and the boomdakka snazzwagon struck me as the same when we got to see the snazzwagon. Looking at it now I see that they're not. The airtintake on the snazzwagon and shokkjump buggies really seems to be the same part though. It'd be weird if they're not but so incredibly similar..
I reckon the speed freaks box set buggies are "easy build" kits with no customisation. That's based on how the wheels are integrated with the body on the red sprue - there's no real reason to do that if you want any modularity (and does seem to go against how "advanced" kits are done). They won't necessarily use parts from the modular kit.
The latest one we've seen might be from the advanced kit which also includes the parts to make the first two buggies as well in a non-easy-kit fashion.
Daedleh wrote: I reckon the speed freaks box set buggies are "easy build" kits with no customisation. That's based on how the wheels are integrated with the body on the red sprue - there's no real reason to do that if you want any modularity (and does seem to go against how "advanced" kits are done). They won't necessarily use parts from the modular kit.
The latest one we've seen might be from the advanced kit which also includes the parts to make the first two buggies as well in a non-easy-kit fashion.
We've seen sprues. Those are not "easy build" kits. The wheels look to be done the same way as the Genestealer Cult Goliaths.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
I think the main reason behind this is to help the orks avoid the rule of 3.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: In 4th ed it was one, two, three, four, five, many, lots, iirc.
Still is. But don’t make the mistake the Imperium did and assume “lots” is any number higher than six; Orks actually just use base seven for some reason.
There's rumours that the Speed Freeks box has simplified versions of the true "buggy" kit, whatever that looks like. I think it was from Hastings.
He said that the Speed Freeks box had only 2 buggy options that were set while the actual kit would be the most customisable kit GW have ever made. Given the previews so far I think it's fair to say there are 2 "main" chassis for the buggies - the kustom boosta blasta/snazzwagon and the dragster. Presumably another, yet unreleased buggy will have the dragster chassis and the Squig thing might be a variation on the Wartrike? Which would be 2 or 3 new kits that make 6 unique models. Perhaps each buggy kit makes a dragster and boostablasta variant.
I would be very surprised if GW didn't release another Ghazzy soon though. Particularly if we're getting this monster Ork on Wartrike. They'll almost have to.
I reckon we're due a plastic boss and Weirdboy then we'd be golden.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
I think the main reason behind this is to help the orks avoid the rule of 3.
Except rule came in what? April. Too late to influence rules and most def model design...
Lead times. First codex that might account for that rule would be like next year
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
I think the main reason behind this is to help the orks avoid the rule of 3.
Except rule came in what? April. Too late to influence rules and most def model design...
Lead times. First codex that might account for that rule would be like next year
Its possible they might allow them to come in squads, counting as 1 unit similar to most IG vehicles
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
I think the main reason behind this is to help the orks avoid the rule of 3.
Except rule came in what? April. Too late to influence rules and most def model design...
Lead times. First codex that might account for that rule would be like next year
Its possible they might allow them to come in squads, counting as 1 unit similar to most IG vehicles
Considering you can squad buggies in the index I expect that to stay the same. I do also expect all the buggies we've seen so far to be unique datasheets. Something about the phrasing of it makes it seem like different units rather than loadouts
It would be funny if it turned out that we were getting one enourmos kit that could build all of the vehicles shown so far, plus many more, and the vehicles shown so far aren't official names or separate units but rather examples of what could be done. I'm talking about a kit with almost VDR like flexibility.
I really don't think that's the case, but it would be cool.
mhalko1 wrote: "Megatrakk Skrap-jet" - Confirmed to be a character-toting trike, the one shown in the background of the Buggy video.
This is from faeit.
Well if it's from faeit then it's not confirmed at all.
He's quoting someone who saw the same video from Kirioth that was included in this thread. I think there's a good chance the trike is the scrapjet, but the video doesn't confirm it and implies they are two different things. Though think that is down to Kirioth seeing the same blurry trike pic we have and assuming it's not one of the named buggies
Oguhmek wrote: I have hundreds of extra arms and heads and torsos - I wish they'd make a box of legs - running, kneeling, jumping, sneaking etc. That would be useful.
You may have already seen these, but for those that haven't I think they are pretty cool. Not exactly cheap, either, but if you already have a ton of bits they are less wasteful than buying a ton of boyz kits IMHO.
1) Buggy kit builds three different designs, but with a ton of bits and gubbins you can customize like mad. Like the Blastajet model, what weapons you put on defines the unit.
2) There will be at least one more vehicle kit, that will carry either a character or a group of other guys, maybe squigs and grots? Hope so. If you build it that way, you get a footslogging character.
3) The "jet" is a smaller flyer. With a stratagem specifically for flyers, doesn't it make sense we get another one?
4) I'm betting on tankbustas/kommandoes as well. That gets most of the line into plastic.
We'll see. Can't wait to see the relics and warlord traits.
I really think we are looking at three different buggies. There are hardly any pieces in common. They all have different tyres. There are three different Ork drivers. The two gunners are different with different styles of platforms and different guns. If this was a kit letting you build one buggy however you wanted there would be a huge amount of leftover parts.
I hope it is either three seperate kits, or a big kit that lets you build three different buggies using the parts in a variety of combinations.
I expect we will see three buggy kits, one trike, a squig buggy box and a scenery piece.
Those six kits would give the orks the second most plastic kits after regular marines.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Snazzguns all have the same core frame yet you can make dozens of combinations.
Yep, could be, and we don't know how these buggies are going to be parceled out and kitted. We know theoretically Speed Freeks is going to have the three that have been shown plus 2 bike sprues and some small ork terrain, but we could be seeing a Helverin/Armiger situation where theyre all purchased separately and share an undercarriage sprue.
I think the main reason behind this is to help the orks avoid the rule of 3.
If they wanted to avoid the rule of 3 just give them squadrons like IG vehicles get.
mhalko1 wrote: "Megatrakk Skrap-jet" - Confirmed to be a character-toting trike, the one shown in the background of the Buggy video.
This is from faeit.
Well if it's from faeit then it's not confirmed at all.
He's quoting someone who saw the same video from Kirioth that was included in this thread. I think there's a good chance the trike is the scrapjet, but the video doesn't confirm it and implies they are two different things. Though think that is down to Kirioth seeing the same blurry trike pic we have and assuming it's not one of the named buggies
The thing is, faeit isn't even good at guessing. For every true rumor that showed up there, you have dozens of fake ones that are just used to generate clicks.
With their current track record, it's more likely that a rumor on faeit is wrong than that it's true.
mhalko1 wrote: "Megatrakk Skrap-jet" - Confirmed to be a character-toting trike, the one shown in the background of the Buggy video.
This is from faeit.
Well if it's from faeit then it's not confirmed at all.
He's quoting someone who saw the same video from Kirioth that was included in this thread. I think there's a good chance the trike is the scrapjet, but the video doesn't confirm it and implies they are two different things. Though think that is down to Kirioth seeing the same blurry trike pic we have and assuming it's not one of the named buggies
So how that would be "confirmed" then if it's based on same video and photo?
It starts at 7.30pm eastern time. The info will go on the community site when it finishes, so an hour or so after that.
7.30pm? feth so like half 11 here? Its going to be a long day.
I won't even see them today. Well something to look for when I wake up.
I still have silly dream of ork codex in september, separate kult of speed codex in orktober Barring that hopefully some non-buggy models will be showcased.
I just hope the codex is good enough to play with normally but not so good that every tourney grinder would jump on the bandwagon and sour the Orks for everyone else.
im gonna predict we probably wont get anything previewed at nova (though i hope im wrong). orks dont come out till orctober, there are going to be releases in September that isn't us, the nova seems like the time for GW to preview anything coming out in September. so most likely we will get aos previews and more details and another vid for the rogue trader.
geargutz wrote: im gonna predict we probably wont get anything previewed at nova (though i hope im wrong). orks dont come out till orctober, there are going to be releases September that isn't us, the nova seems like the time for GW to preview anything coming out in September. so most likely we will get aos previews and more details and another vid for the rogue trader.
Yeah, I believe the same thing. Warhammer community said:
"We already know some of what the future holds with Orks, Rogue Trader, Beasts of Chaos and Nightvault on the way – prepare for more info on some of those, and other stuff you didn’t even know you were looking forward to…it’s going to be a big one."
Empasis my own, but I feel like they'll show off the other stuff listed and some other sneak peeks, maybe of a future campaign. Praying to Gork that I'm wrong on this or that the future campaign is Ghaz and skarboyz on Armageddon
lord_blackfang wrote: I just hope the codex is good enough to play with normally but not so good that every tourney grinder would jump on the bandwagon and sour the Orks for everyone else.
Agree. I want to take the 8000 points sitting in my basement and just play them without the game being the equivalent of me punching myself in the face.. Maybe buy some buggies, flash gits or a naut, but I have more than enough orks otherwise.
This is why orks are constantly fighting among each other in the fluff
No, it isn't! WAAAGH!!
On another, totally unrelated, note: How much brain capacity does a squig have? Is there any sort of precedent set for the "mek-squig" on the shokkjump dragsta? I absolutely adore that little guy but has something like that ever been mentioned in the lore..?
This is why orks are constantly fighting among each other in the fluff
What we need is "moderate" Orks telling us that both sides are the same/to blame
Well, we had those GorkaMorka freaks...and now would be the time to yell "but why not MorkaGorka?!".
Okay, I'm embarassed for even writing this
I hope Orks get an infantry kit of WHATEVER with the codex. And decent rules for the first time since forever. For some reason my brother and I have 60 Boyz, quite a few Nobz, a single bike, a Zzzap gun and the BR Koptas and Warboss between us. Just like Space Marines Orks just...show up. Maybe my Pirate Orcs have siren squig? Anyway, with good enough rules, a few walkers and cheap specialists like Lootas and jump dudes and not so cheap Freebooterz and the Speed Freekz box I might have an army for another ~150€ or so. So, please, GW, just write rules that work without 300 boyz with minimal upgrades.
I still have silly dream of ork codex in september, separate kult of speed codex in orktober Barring that hopefully some non-buggy models will be showcased.
I hope we don't see Squigs driving vehicles. That would cross the line into silly territory. Any vehicle 'manned' by a Squig should be a remote-controlled means of delivering the Squig into the enemy lines.
Jidmah wrote: Maybe the buggy is armed with a squig bomb? That would be quite awesome.
That's an amazing idea! Like a minelayer, it has a hopper of bombsquigs that it can release, which once released move randomly until there is an enemy vehicle within 18" when it charges and explodes.
Jidmah wrote: Maybe the buggy is armed with a squig bomb? That would be quite awesome.
That's an amazing idea! Like a minelayer, it has a hopper of bombsquigs that it can release, which once released move randomly until there is an enemy vehicle within 18" when it charges and explodes.
You think gw introduce randomly moving modei?-) too complex for gw
Jidmah wrote: Maybe the buggy is armed with a squig bomb? That would be quite awesome.
That's an amazing idea! Like a minelayer, it has a hopper of bombsquigs that it can release, which once released move randomly until there is an enemy vehicle within 18" when it charges and explodes.
You think gw introduce randomly moving modei?-) too complex for gw
Love the trike. GW confirmed there are more vehicles to come. It also confirms this isn't the scrapjet. So that means at least 6 vehicle kits! Exciting times!
That model looks absolutely awesome. The jacket, abs, shotgun and hook power claw are so mouth wateringly awesome to look at. I hope with all my heart and soul there rules can at least be half of the quality of that model.
Worth waiting 20 years, when the original plastic buggy was meh to begin with?
Ummm.
New vehicles look nice,
not so conversion friendly and a bit too shiny and new for Orks imho but wutevs,
hard to complain after the gak nasty GW has been lazily pushing for 2 decades.
I'm going to guess (It wont be Ork Boyz nor any models based on them as Killteam uses these)
- Ghazzy
- Squiqs
- Warboss on Foot / Megaarmor (Note that the codex rumors didn't mention they've removed the megaarmor warboss. We'll be seeing this git soon)
I'm going to guess (It wont be Ork Boyz nor any models based on them as Killteam uses these)
- Ghazzy
- Squiqs
- Warboss on Foot / Megaarmor (Note that the codex rumors didn't mention they've removed the megaarmor warboss. We'll be seeing this git soon)
I’m hoping for this as well. Ghazzy and foot warbosses clearly need updated models so hopefully we get them. Ideally it would be nice to get a multi kit similar to HT/Swarmlord or LOC/Fateweaver kits for Ghazzy and MA warboss
New trike boss looks great. Are the "boomsticks" it is supposed to be armed with the shotgun-looking shootas?
The pic is small, but the terrain in the Speed Freeks box looks more like barricades and piles of junk than ramps to me. Oh well, it is easy enough to build our own jumps!
The trike is pretty much all one could hope for. I'm surprised that the 'cable spool' turned out to be the front wheel - that's the only part of the model that looks dubious.
With more to come, this is a big surge of support for Orks. I still think it's time for them to re-do the Boyz. If I was GW, I'd do it, because there would be huge sales (both existing Ork players upgrading their armies and, hopefully, all the new players attracted to Orks by these new models).
Plus the extra attacks. Though that always hits on 6 should be general game wide rule rather than just orks.
No way. LET THEM MISS.
That's selfish attitude. The problem isn't just for orks. Now GW has to introduce that rule one by one for every other faction that can get to 7+ to hit. Having it just for orks would be horribly bad game design.
...which albeit fits with 8th ed, the king in terms of bad game design.
Easy to add the always hit on 6s rule to chapter approved, alongside the beta sisters codex.
Sad that not all the new buggies are in the speed freaks box, but still no regrets for asking my FLGS to hold 2 for me. Not sure about buggies on bases, though I do put all my big gunz and artillery on bases.
After you’ve played a few games, you’ll notice that you have enough models to start your own Speedwaaagh! in the form of an Outrider Detachment’s worth of buggies and Warbikes – but what Warboss could possibly keep up?
Those cardboard dashboard type things to hide your dice/actions (???) in Speed Freaks are perfectly balanced between cool and kitsch. Glad that the Orks are finally getting some love.
so....badmoonz klan rule is reroll 1s with ranged weapons?
Ugh...that annoys me to a mild degree. I prefer toyz over boyz but my toyz still have snippy klaws alot of the time lol.
However....that will entice me to go rokkit spam more...
Speedfreeks looks like it could be pretty fun, I'm interested to hear more about it. Hopefully you can use the new Warboss/Trucks/Coptas/other Ork stuff in it.
I absolutely love that new Warboss. Even his driver is a tough as nails, one-handing a giant orc shotgun thing with a cool mask on.
People with more math hammer than me: Does the Dakkadakka rule make the rumored bad moons re-roll ones rule worthwhile, or is it still not so hot compared to the others?
All this new Ork stuff looks so good. I am having super nostalgia for 2nd edition when my main opponent played Orks...
Plus the extra attacks. Though that always hits on 6 should be general game wide rule rather than just orks.
No way. LET THEM MISS.
That's selfish attitude.
Yep. Makes up for all those games when the other factions had 6+ while orks had 7+, and for those (very few) cases when they had 7+ and orks had 8+.
No reason why others can't feel the pain for a while...especially since 7+ (from BS4+) is much, much rarer than 7+ from BS5+.
You are just looking at yourself. I'm looking at what is best for the game.
Ah well. We all behave like kids some time.
And bad in past does not excuse things being bad in reverse. Just because wraithknight was OP past doesn't mean(to anybody with half a working brain cell anyway) that wraithknight should be nerfed to oblivion.
Either/Or wrote: People with more math hammer than me: Does the Dakkadakka rule make the rumored bad moons re-roll ones rule worthwhile, or is it still not so hot compared to the others?
All this new Ork stuff looks so good. I am having super nostalgia for 2nd edition when my main opponent played Orks...
The two buffs multiply so it's a little better. Both together are still inferior to +1 to hit or flat re-rolls.
In reality the main difference between +1 BS and those two rules is probably just rolling more dice.
But that's not the way GW operates. We've seen them nerf stuff in new editions when the rules no longer function they way they did in the past. They're notorious for swinging that pendulum as hard as they can.
Anyway, so, Ork terrain. There are, on first glance, 6 pieces. Hopefully I can get a couple of that sprue. I presume that Ork Bikerz will be going cheap as chips when that hits.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But that's not the way GW operates. We've seen them nerf stuff in new editions when the rules no longer function they way they did in the past. They're notorious for swinging that pendulum as hard as they can.
Which a) doesn't make it right b) is super bad game design which fits the style of 8th edition which is king in the amount of bad game design in it
Plus the extra attacks. Though that always hits on 6 should be general game wide rule rather than just orks.
No way. LET THEM MISS.
That's selfish attitude. The problem isn't just for orks. Now GW has to introduce that rule one by one for every other faction that can get to 7+ to hit. Having it just for orks would be horribly bad game design.
...which albeit fits with 8th ed, the king in terms of bad game design.
Not that I dislike the rule,
but I agree with your assessment of GWs flagship 8th edition completely.
Rules wise a trainwreck and getting worse in a lot of ways...
I have never met anyone stacking more than -2 to hit on anything.
First of all, you simply shoot something else, as there is no army that can do this to more than one units that doesn't have character protection anyway.
Second, it's more efficient to spread the buffs to multiple units. Third, -2 is enough to make most 4+ weapons useless already.
man, im glad i was wrong in my suspicions that there were going to be no ork news at nove.
i like the dakka dakka rule. we no longer have to worry about -2 anymore. at this point we will have to see if the rest of our codex helps with shooting (hopefully in the form of pts decreases).
im liking the look of speedfreeks, and i can wait to leave my opponent in dust trails, "burn some dakka and eat my rubber!" or was it burn some rubber and eat my dakka?
the new boss trike is sweet, hopefully it will have upgrade options and not just be a bland uncustimizable kit (as far as wargear is concerned) and hopefully its a worthy replacement for our bike characters (i know those characters will be available in index, but still it hurts if we cant cover our speedfreeks with pts efficient kff bikes).
Jidmah wrote: I have never met anyone stacking more than -2 to hit on anything.
First of all, you simply shoot something else, as there is no army that can do this to more than one units that doesn't have character protection anyway.
Second, it's more efficient to spread the buffs to multiple units. Third, -2 is enough to make most 4+ weapons useless already.
So, not a real problem.
This.
They don't need to make the 6s always hit a global rule for every faction but there's virtually no examples of it becoming a problem. Stacking -3 to hit requires the stars to align perfectly and usually costs psychic powers and stratagems. -2 to hit, on the other hand, is much more common and will now have exactly the same impact on Ork shooting as it does other factions', rather than rendering our weapons useless.
Jidmah wrote: I have never met anyone stacking more than -2 to hit on anything.
First of all, you simply shoot something else, as there is no army that can do this to more than one units that doesn't have character protection anyway.
Second, it's more efficient to spread the buffs to multiple units. Third, -2 is enough to make most 4+ weapons useless already.
So, not a real problem.
This.
They don't need to make the 6s always hit a global rule for every faction but there's virtually no examples of it becoming a problem. Stacking -3 to hit requires the stars to align perfectly and usually costs psychic powers and stratagems. -2 to hit, on the other hand, is much more common and will now have exactly the same impact on Ork shooting as it does other factions', rather than rendering our weapons useless.
There will still be factions with weapons rendered useless. Either by -3/-4(yes those exists) OR BY HAVING BS5+! Why orks think they are only ones with BS5+?
Impossible to hit shouldn't exists period. It's not and never has been ork only issue. Pretty much every faction can suffer from that and now there will still be impossible to hit vs -2.
Demanding only orks have it is a) sign you would suck as game designer by making such a brain dead idiot game design decision b) entitlement. "orks were treated unfairly in the past. Time for others to pay for it by being treated unfairly in return". Generally most people I have met grew out of that attitude when they became 5 years old...
There will still be factions with weapons rendered useless. Either by -3/-4(yes those exists) OR BY HAVING BS5+! Why orks think they are only ones with BS5+?
Impossible to hit shouldn't exists period. It's not and never has been ork only issue. Pretty much every faction can suffer from that and now there will still be impossible to hit vs -2.
Demanding only orks have it is a) sign you would suck as game designer by making such a brain dead idiot game design decision b) entitlement. "orks were treated unfairly in the past. Time for others to pay for it by being treated unfairly in return". Generally most people I have met grew out of that attitude when they became 5 years old...
out of curiosity can you tell me the factions that have bs5 in mass. im not talking about a faction with maybe 2 or 3 bs5 units, but a majority. i imagine tyranids were like this (because they are a horde melee faction) but i just checked their index and majority are bs4.
it seems your trying to shame us for having wanted a uniquely orky solution to a problem that is fairly uniquely orky.
now i will to concede this point if there was another faction that has it as bad as us, but for now it seems your hating on these ork players for no reason.
edit: i dont have the demons index or codex with me, but they might apply, but most of their units are solely melee focused with no hopes in shooting. so i guess i will say to ignore melee only units when you calculate if a factions bs5 is the majority.
Any educated guess on how much the new Speed Freaks box will cost ??
I already own more than enough bikerz (at least with their current rules) and I'm not interested in the terrain so I'm curious to know I should rather wait for the solo kits.
There will still be factions with weapons rendered useless. Either by -3/-4(yes those exists) OR BY HAVING BS5+! Why orks think they are only ones with BS5+?
Impossible to hit shouldn't exists period. It's not and never has been ork only issue. Pretty much every faction can suffer from that and now there will still be impossible to hit vs -2.
Demanding only orks have it is a) sign you would suck as game designer by making such a brain dead idiot game design decision b) entitlement. "orks were treated unfairly in the past. Time for others to pay for it by being treated unfairly in return". Generally most people I have met grew out of that attitude when they became 5 years old...
out of curiosity can you tell me the factions that have bs5 in mass. im not talking about a faction with maybe 2 or 3 bs5 units, but a majority. i imagine tyranids were like this (because they are a horde melee faction) but i just checked their index and majority are bs4.
it seems your trying to shame us for having wanted a uniquely orky solution to a problem that is fairly uniquely orky.
now i will to concede this point if there was another faction that has it as bad as us, but for now it seems your hating on these ork players for no reason.
edit: i dont have the demons index or codex with me, but they might apply, but most of their units are solely melee focused with no hopes in shooting. so i guess i will say to ignore melee only units when you calculate if a factions bs5 is the majority.
He is absolutely hating on Ork players for no reason. He does this fairly often - props himself on an imaginary high horse and puts other people down.
He's failed to grasp that what we're actually saying is that there is no need for the "fix" because the problem doesn't really exist.
I'd also be interested to hear how many and what the instances of -3 and -4 to hit are, how common they are and how much resource they cost a player to have (if they're indeed possible). Also keen to hear how many instances of another faction with primarily BS 5+ units? I can't think of another.
Nice Wartrike model. And good to see a teaser for Khorne and Slaanesh releases. LLV's rumors on the TGA forum (Khorne in December) may turn out to be correct. I'm looking forward to the end of 2018. Starting with all the Ork goodness.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Can anyone tell what the Ork'o'Lanterns are on the sides of the trike? Are they helmets?
They look like stylized attack squig statues, because obviously a bike boss can't have real squigs, but they are traditional. An actual ork kultur thing.
I'm gueesing they're nothing really. Just some sweet ork designs.. I thought that maybe some weapon was hidden in them but looking closer that doesn't seem to be the case. Also the text says: "Armed with boomsticks, jet-propulsion engines and a team of very angry Orks..." so unless there's a boomstick in there I'm guessing it's nothing.
However they say that the trike has a team of very angry orks but the guy on the back looks like a grot to me.. I guess they mean the big guy and the driver
I thought there was one of those as a helmet, but you guys are right. Two and they're screwed onto the bike. Might take a saw to it and make it a spare helmet for the boss. The other can ho to a biker.
I also noticed tiny support wheels at the back for the occasion of going REALLY fast wiff da rokkit engine and the trike doing a wheelie Reminds me of my brother's Tyco Dagger RC car. Now I'm off to find a new battery pack and charger for that beast, sigh.
Binabik15 wrote: I thought there was one of those as a helmet, but you guys are right. Two and they're screwed onto the bike. Might take a saw to it and make it a spare helmet for the boss. The other can ho to a biker.
I also noticed tiny support wheels at the back for the occasion of going REALLY fast wiff da rokkit engine and the trike doing a wheelie Reminds me of my brother's Tyco Dagger RC car. Now I'm off to find a new battery pack and charger for that beast, sigh.
They might look cool as helmets, or chop 'em in half and do metal jaws out of them. The trike might even look better without them (or with adding real squigs instead)
Latro_ wrote: warboss klaw looks like it fires some grappling hook, bet that has some cool rules.
It's 8th Ed, so let's roll on the 8th Ed Special Rule Table:
1: Causes a Mortal Wound 2: Re-roll missed attacks of 1. 3: Re-roll failed wound rolls of 1. 4: Causes a Mortal Wound on a natural wound roll of 6. 5: Re-roll charge distance. 6: Causes a Mortal Wound, but worded slightly differently to result '1', and with a different special rule name.
dakkadakka isn't all that, its a nice to have most of the time assuming no mods:
30 shoota shots = five 6's
of those 5 more shots you get 1 - 2 more hits for a total of 11-12 instead of 10. hardly game breaking
It's not the extra hits that are the big thing (tho they are appreciated)
it's the fact that 6's hit irrespective of modifiers so no more swearing under your breath when you realise the stuff you wanted to shoot at would need 7s or 8s so you couldn't hit full stop
How often is that a thing? I only played with me orks a couple of times in 8th. In normal games aside from specific eldar armies i dont think i'v faced -2 to hit very often
Latro_ wrote: warboss klaw looks like it fires some grappling hook, bet that has some cool rules.
It's 8th Ed, so let's roll on the 8th Ed Special Rule Table:
1: Causes a Mortal Wound
2: Re-roll missed attacks of 1.
3: Re-roll failed wound rolls of 1.
4: Causes a Mortal Wound on a natural wound roll of 6.
5: Re-roll charge distance.
6: Causes a Mortal Wound, but worded slightly differently to result '1', and with a different special rule name.
Roll a d6. On a 4+ causes D3 mortal wounds.
Roll 6 dice. Every 6 causes a mortal wound.
Latro_ wrote: warboss klaw looks like it fires some grappling hook, bet that has some cool rules.
It's 8th Ed, so let's roll on the 8th Ed Special Rule Table:
1: Causes a Mortal Wound
2: Re-roll missed attacks of 1.
3: Re-roll failed wound rolls of 1.
4: Causes a Mortal Wound on a natural wound roll of 6.
5: Re-roll charge distance.
6: Causes a Mortal Wound, but worded slightly differently to result '1', and with a different special rule name.
You might have missed
7. Causes any unsaved wound to result in a mortal wound.
If you have <new ork clan name> then add 1 to your dice roll.
Latro_ wrote: How often is that a thing? I only played with me orks a couple of times in 8th. In normal games aside from specific eldar armies i dont think i'v faced -2 to hit very often
Sadly, Allaitoc is by far the best trait for any eldar army, so you basically have the problem whenever playing any eldar army. For Alpha Legion and Ravenguard detachments, this is less of an issue, because they usually have more valuable targets than infantry and dreads/helbrutes.
Latro_ wrote: How often is that a thing? I only played with me orks a couple of times in 8th. In normal games aside from specific eldar armies i dont think i'v faced -2 to hit very often
Alaitoc, Ravenguard, dark eldar can all get -2(or more) with or without your co-operation(advance. And not advancing slows you down for sake of hitting on 6's so already bad)
tneva82 wrote: There will still be factions with weapons rendered useless. Either by -3/-4(yes those exists) OR BY HAVING BS5+! Why orks think they are only ones with BS5+?
Please provide a list of factions with BS5+ on dedicated shooting units Please provide a list of models than can archive -3/-4, that are not characters or once per game deals
Impossible to hit shouldn't exists period.
"period" means "because I say so". Don't take this personally, but I don't take your word for this. As long as the army as a whole can shoot down the dodging, stealthy, blessed, super-sonic, smoked and flickering something at some point during the game, it's no different to a -1 to hit 3++ Magnus or a 28W 2+/4++ T8 knight.
It's not and never has been ork only issue. Pretty much every faction can suffer from that and now there will still be impossible to hit vs -2.
It's an ork issue when you can't shoot 60% of an eldar army because they brought hemlocks, rangers and wave serpents. Then they buff another unit you actually could shoot to -2 as well, put a stratagem on a second and you are fresh out of targets to shoot... with your entire army.
Demanding only orks have it is a) sign you would suck as game designer by making such a brain dead idiot game design decision
I am rubber you are glue... and insults don't make for a convincing argument.
b) entitlement. "orks were treated unfairly in the past. Time for others to pay for it by being treated unfairly in return". Generally most people I have met grew out of that attitude when they became 5 years old...
You might want to consider that some comments aren't meant to be taken seriously.
Jidmah wrote: I have never met anyone stacking more than -2 to hit on anything.
First of all, you simply shoot something else, as there is no army that can do this to more than one units that doesn't have character protection anyway.
Second, it's more efficient to spread the buffs to multiple units. Third, -2 is enough to make most 4+ weapons useless already.
So, not a real problem.
Yeah but wasnt this the problem with invisibility? Hey just shoot something else. Yeah but invisible thinderwolves are right here. Competitive gaming stacked -2 on key units to increase their longevity. Also the problem lies, in the circumstance where ork assault weapons couldnt fire at a -1 unit because of the -1 on the advance.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Can anyone tell what the Ork'o'Lanterns are on the sides of the trike? Are they helmets?
I'd wager some kind of orky Air Intake. There is a very similar maw-looking setup on one of the Warbike models, directly in front of (a presumably) air cooled engine.
Jidmah wrote: I have never met anyone stacking more than -2 to hit on anything.
First of all, you simply shoot something else, as there is no army that can do this to more than one units that doesn't have character protection anyway.
Second, it's more efficient to spread the buffs to multiple units. Third, -2 is enough to make most 4+ weapons useless already.
So, not a real problem.
Yeah but wasnt this the problem with invisibility? Hey just shoot something else. Yeah but invisible thinderwolves are right here. Competitive gaming stacked -2 on key units to increase their longevity. Also the problem lies, in the circumstance where ork assault weapons couldnt fire at a -1 unit because of the -1 on the advance.
Let's see, the most common offender of this are eldar.
Their sources of -1 to hit are:
- Allaitoc (shooting from outside of 12")
- Unit has it (Most common ones: hemlocks, pathfinders, wave serpents)
- Relics (up to two characters)
- Conceal (infantry/bikes, shooting only, warpcharge 6, can't be cast by hemlocks)
- Stratagem (infantry/units with FLY, 1CP per phase)
So, without spending any additional resources, you could have 2 characters, your troops, your transports and your fliers all with -2 hit. Then, you can then have two additional -1 to hits that can both go on infantry or jetbike (including characters) to make them -4.
One (non-named) character with -4 or a unit of pathfinders with -4 might be useful in corner cases, but neither is going to do well against mortal wounds or auto-hitting weapons, let alone a unit charging them. So it's more efficient to spread these buffs around to leave no good targets to shoot and force your opponent to waste their shots.
Invisibility was immunity to both assault and shooting, with no way to get around it. Also, usually layered with re-rollable saves. Most -1 to hit things available only work against shooting. There are also close to no units that are as powerful as a 7th edition death star that also have a way for them to get -2 to hit.
30 shootas = 5 6 results? what are you on? I always have a 30squad of shootas w/ 3 bigshootas as a frontline unit, they can shoot things while advancing (assuming no -1's around) unlike the slugga boyz and since theyre in front theyre gonna get lit first instead of the actual melee threat behind them. I roll 6's like mad with them. They still cause roughly as many hits as a 5man marine squad for me. Considering they are ONLY hitting on 6s when i do this, thats pretty dang good. Especially since the shooting is an afterthought, theyre still good in melee.
I think a 6 should always be a hit, regardless of modifiers, across the board simply because –
If a flamer can auto hit a flying, supersonic jetfighter, then standard shooting should also be able to hit it on a 6.
As for -2+ being super common, you only see it on Alaitoc flyers and Alaitoc Rangers naturally. In order to get to -2 on any other unit, you are required to spend 2 CP on a stratagem or a psychic power targeting a single infantry or biker unit.
In addition to this, you can get a -1 to hit from a relic. Which, only comes into play if you mess up or are in combat (at which point, it is only a -1 to hit).
Or a -1 to hit from shooting from a relic, again, which only comes into play if you decide you don’t want to screen the character.
So, at most, you’ll be looking at 0-3 flyers with at least a -2 to hit, a couple of Ranger units, again with -2 to hit, and then 1 other unit with -2 to hit via the use of a stratagem. I personally can’t remember the last time I saw conceal being run over protect/jinx and quicken.
Sure, 1 flyer can easily get to -3 to hit with the stratagem, but, there are other targets on the table for you to pick.
That, and as Orks, you’re likely going to be within 12” of the target anyway with all the advancing and wanting to charge etc, so, you’re already negating the -1 to hit penalty just through army play style.
Outside of Eldar, you’re essentially looking at a Raven Guard Dreadnought popping smoke to get the -2 to hit.
I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Latro_ wrote: warboss klaw looks like it fires some grappling hook, bet that has some cool rules.
It's 8th Ed, so let's roll on the 8th Ed Special Rule Table:
1: Causes a Mortal Wound
2: Re-roll missed attacks of 1.
3: Re-roll failed wound rolls of 1.
4: Causes a Mortal Wound on a natural wound roll of 6.
5: Re-roll charge distance.
6: Causes a Mortal Wound, but worded slightly differently to result '1', and with a different special rule name.
Hopefully we get something a little more innovative -
1. Add another D6 for the Wartrike when attempting a charge for a unit hit by this weapon in the proceeding shooting phase.
2. Unit can only move half speed if hit by this weapon in shooting phase.
3. Unit must roll off to leave combat (please, pretty please GW!). A stratagem could allow each unit to add Strength to the roll.
4. After you have successfully hit an enemy unit with this weapon you may immediately move that unit up to 3" as long as it ends it's move closer to the firer.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
However, getting additional shots for free on 6’s IS flavourful and represents them just shooting more and more and more dakka.
Just because Eldar can currently counter Ork shooting via negative to hit modifiers isn’t reason enough to just introduce this for Orks alone. What about standard Guard units, or T’au units etc? Should T’au drones always hit on a 6 because they are also BS5 base? Should a Space Marine Stormtalon always hit on a 6, if, in the chance it has to move and is still outside of 12”, giving it a 7+ to hit on something with -3?
Fluff wise, the Eldar are a super-fast and graceful race in peace and war. They should be difficult to hit and require just mass fire to reliably bring them down. They are the ones usually foiling the Orks, especially when they foresee events and then influence them in their favour time after time.
However, from a game mechanic point of view, getting more shots on a 6 is pretty pointless if you can’t get the hit to start with. But, that said, there are plenty of instances across units and armies where you just think… “well that is pointless”.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
However, getting additional shots for free on 6’s IS flavourful and represents them just shooting more and more and more dakka.
Just because Eldar can currently counter Ork shooting via negative to hit modifiers isn’t reason enough to just introduce this for Orks alone. What about standard Guard units, or T’au units etc? Should T’au drones always hit on a 6 because they are also BS5 base? Should a Space Marine Stormtalon always hit on a 6, if, in the chance it has to move and is still outside of 12”, giving it a 7+ to hit on something with -3?
Fluff wise, the Eldar are a super-fast and graceful race in peace and war. They should be difficult to hit and require just mass fire to reliably bring them down. They are the ones usually foiling the Orks, especially when they foresee events and then influence them in their favour time after time.
However, from a game mechanic point of view, getting more shots on a 6 is pretty pointless if you can’t get the hit to start with. But, that said, there are plenty of instances across units and armies where you just think… “well that is pointless”.
Yah i guess you don't get it. The whole point is you can't really evade their aim if they're not aiming in the first place. Classic ork "insane troll logic". Nothing like a poncy eldar pirouetting through the sky dodging and jinking only to get blasted off his bike by a cannon shot that some grot fired off by accident. But that's fine. Orks aren't for everyone.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
However, getting additional shots for free on 6’s IS flavourful and represents them just shooting more and more and more dakka.
Just because Eldar can currently counter Ork shooting via negative to hit modifiers isn’t reason enough to just introduce this for Orks alone. What about standard Guard units, or T’au units etc? Should T’au drones always hit on a 6 because they are also BS5 base? Should a Space Marine Stormtalon always hit on a 6, if, in the chance it has to move and is still outside of 12”, giving it a 7+ to hit on something with -3?
Fluff wise, the Eldar are a super-fast and graceful race in peace and war. They should be difficult to hit and require just mass fire to reliably bring them down. They are the ones usually foiling the Orks, especially when they foresee events and then influence them in their favour time after time.
However, from a game mechanic point of view, getting more shots on a 6 is pretty pointless if you can’t get the hit to start with. But, that said, there are plenty of instances across units and armies where you just think… “well that is pointless”.
You're right it should be hard to hit them and they SHOULD only be able to hit because of mass fire. However, I can take 5000 points worth of shooting units and you can take 1 unit with a -2 and my entire army cannot hit you, so massed fire is useless. Your statement is based on fluff ideas that don't work in game. The Dakka Dakka Dakka rule is necessary and always hitting on a 6 represents the mass fire that you so keenly said is the only way that orks should be able to hit eldar.
God forbid Orks make it out of "okay" tier so soon after making it out of "complete and utter gak" tier, which only happened because of the changes to CC.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Also I dont really like the warboss tri-cycle. His pose is unnatural and very static.
I guess I am just being a negative nancy.. but I dont see how an extra shot 16% of the time on shots that hit 16% of the time is even worth the ink the rule is printed on. It would be way more legit if hit rolls of 6 auto added the extra shot.
Kdash wrote: If a flamer can auto hit a flying, supersonic jetfighter, then standard shooting should also be able to hit it on a 6.
I’d rather they made it that flamers can’t hit a flying, supersonic jet fighter, because that’s stupid and bypasses the “hard to hit” rule that jacks up the cost of the flyer. I really think that they ought to reinstate the old Apocalypse rule where anything shooting at flyers has to subtract 12” from it’s range, unless it’s a flyer itself.
Can’t wait for this release, I’m going to be soooo poor.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying Orks shouldn't be able to hit, i'm just saying that randomly firing off shots in the hope some hit doesn't lead you to having a higher chance to hit anything, and certainly doesn't give you a -set- chance to hit anything.
The extra shots on it's own does enough to represent the Orks "spraying and praying until they run out of ammo" perfectly fine. Just as a rule saying "every to hit roll of a 1 causes an automatic hit against the closest allied unit" would cover the Ork randomness.
As it stands i think negative to hit modifiers should be capped at -2, and then, only in limited instances, or, for a game wide 6=hit just like 1=miss.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
However, getting additional shots for free on 6’s IS flavourful and represents them just shooting more and more and more dakka.
Just because Eldar can currently counter Ork shooting via negative to hit modifiers isn’t reason enough to just introduce this for Orks alone. What about standard Guard units, or T’au units etc? Should T’au drones always hit on a 6 because they are also BS5 base? Should a Space Marine Stormtalon always hit on a 6, if, in the chance it has to move and is still outside of 12”, giving it a 7+ to hit on something with -3?
Fluff wise, the Eldar are a super-fast and graceful race in peace and war. They should be difficult to hit and require just mass fire to reliably bring them down. They are the ones usually foiling the Orks, especially when they foresee events and then influence them in their favour time after time.
However, from a game mechanic point of view, getting more shots on a 6 is pretty pointless if you can’t get the hit to start with. But, that said, there are plenty of instances across units and armies where you just think… “well that is pointless”.
You're right it should be hard to hit them and they SHOULD only be able to hit because of mass fire. However, I can take 5000 points worth of shooting units and you can take 1 unit with a -2 and my entire army cannot hit you, so massed fire is useless. Your statement is based on fluff ideas that don't work in game. The Dakka Dakka Dakka rule is necessary and always hitting on a 6 represents the mass fire that you so keenly said is the only way that orks should be able to hit eldar.
Alternatively, you could use those 5000 points of shooty units (which are also reasonable in melee) and charge them into the 1 unit with a -2 to hit when outside of 12" range. And if it is a flyer, well, technically i've then lost the game due to having no "boots on the ground".
Kdash wrote: If a flamer can auto hit a flying, supersonic jetfighter, then standard shooting should also be able to hit it on a 6.
I’d rather they made it that flamers can’t hit a flying, supersonic jet fighter, because that’s stupid and bypasses the “hard to hit” rule that jacks up the cost of the flyer. I really think that they ought to reinstate the old Apocalypse rule where anything shooting at flyers has to subtract 12” from it’s range, unless it’s a flyer itself.
Can’t wait for this release, I’m going to be soooo poor.
I agree, either option is fine imo - but, this game doeesn't do logic, no matter how much my brain tries to make it so...
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Which isn't something only orks can do. If you can't see enemy but you know it's somewhere over there shoot.
Always hits on 6 needs to be core rule. That or be special rule for any faction that has any units that can in any situation go to 7+. Anything else is bad game design.
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Which isn't something only orks can do. If you can't see enemy but you know it's somewhere over there shoot.
Always hits on 6 needs to be core rule. That or be special rule for any faction that has any units that can in any situation go to 7+. Anything else is bad game design.
Yeah, if a roll of a 1 always fails then a roll of a 6 should always succeed, unless specified otherwise.
Kdash wrote: Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying Orks shouldn't be able to hit, i'm just saying that randomly firing off shots in the hope some hit doesn't lead you to having a higher chance to hit anything, and certainly doesn't give you a -set- chance to hit anything.
The extra shots on it's own does enough to represent the Orks "spraying and praying until they run out of ammo" perfectly fine. Just as a rule saying "every to hit roll of a 1 causes an automatic hit against the closest allied unit" would cover the Ork randomness.
As it stands i think negative to hit modifiers should be capped at -2, and then, only in limited instances, or, for a game wide 6=hit just like 1=miss.
Zachectomy wrote: I think the "sixes always hit" thing should be ork-specific. It's flavorful and honestly, ork shooting vs eldar reminds me of ork "planning" vs necrons/imhotek... they should be the foil for the arrogant elder races
Personally, I don’t see how always hitting on 6’s is “flavourful” in any way shape or form.
However, getting additional shots for free on 6’s IS flavourful and represents them just shooting more and more and more dakka.
Just because Eldar can currently counter Ork shooting via negative to hit modifiers isn’t reason enough to just introduce this for Orks alone. What about standard Guard units, or T’au units etc? Should T’au drones always hit on a 6 because they are also BS5 base? Should a Space Marine Stormtalon always hit on a 6, if, in the chance it has to move and is still outside of 12”, giving it a 7+ to hit on something with -3?
Fluff wise, the Eldar are a super-fast and graceful race in peace and war. They should be difficult to hit and require just mass fire to reliably bring them down. They are the ones usually foiling the Orks, especially when they foresee events and then influence them in their favour time after time.
However, from a game mechanic point of view, getting more shots on a 6 is pretty pointless if you can’t get the hit to start with. But, that said, there are plenty of instances across units and armies where you just think… “well that is pointless”.
You're right it should be hard to hit them and they SHOULD only be able to hit because of mass fire. However, I can take 5000 points worth of shooting units and you can take 1 unit with a -2 and my entire army cannot hit you, so massed fire is useless. Your statement is based on fluff ideas that don't work in game. The Dakka Dakka Dakka rule is necessary and always hitting on a 6 represents the mass fire that you so keenly said is the only way that orks should be able to hit eldar.
Alternatively, you could use those 5000 points of shooty units (which are also reasonable in melee) and charge them into the 1 unit with a -2 to hit when outside of 12" range. And if it is a flyer, well, technically i've then lost the game due to having no "boots on the ground".
'(
Well if charging is the solution then we are back to square 1. Why take any shooting units at all. I'll just charge instead. not to mention if this were a unit of Mek Gunz then charging isn't really an option. This rule is about shooting options being readily available and functional. If you even read the DDD rule in the italicized portion. The rule IS the justification for mass firing of shots.
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Which isn't something only orks can do. If you can't see enemy but you know it's somewhere over there shoot.
Always hits on 6 needs to be core rule. That or be special rule for any faction that has any units that can in any situation go to 7+. Anything else is bad game design.
Most armies tend to have an ammo capacity to their guns or logistics to worry about though.
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Which isn't something only orks can do. If you can't see enemy but you know it's somewhere over there shoot.
Always hits on 6 needs to be core rule. That or be special rule for any faction that has any units that can in any situation go to 7+. Anything else is bad game design.
Most armies tend to have an ammo capacity to their guns or logistics to worry about though.
I like to think about it from a snipers point of view. If there was a squad of like 5 howling banshees that could cloak. They go invisible while advancing. The Sniper firing a shot at a time is less likely to hit them than the horde of orks just holding down the trigger. This scenario is the DDD rule and the sniper while very unlikely, is the now 7+ to hit. Even though I don't think any player has realistically had snipers hit 7+
The new warboss is awesome! I just hope the codex allows for some variety in what he carries, a warboss speeding around with Headwoppas Kill Choppa taking heads seems right stompy
Orks only ever hit anything because they beleive they can. They are (AFAIK) the only race that uses latent psychic powers to aim, something that makes them a natural enemy of Eldar.
To T'au gun drones ever believe they are going to hit something? I really don't think it is in their capacity to do so.
If there is less than 8.33% percent chance of hitting anything, it rounds to 0 on a D6. Without psycic powers I can see some tricky to hit things existing. If it is closer to zero than 1, it's a zero. As long as it isn't the whole army locked out from hitting another whole army, it's OK. Now with the Orks fixed, only sporadic and occasional units are penalized like this.
Regarding always hitting in combat...does anyone really think a rank and file fire warrior has a 1/6th chance to hit Lelith? That should be a zero as well.
JimOnMars wrote: Orks only ever hit anything because they beleive they can. They are (AFAIK) the only race that uses latent psychic powers to aim, something that makes them a natural enemy of Eldar.
To T'au gun drones ever believe they are going to hit something? I really don't think it is in their capacity to do so.
If there is less than 8.33% percent chance of hitting anything, it rounds to 0 on a D6. Without psycic powers I can see some tricky to hit things existing. If it is closer to zero than 1, it's a zero. As long as it isn't the whole army locked out from hitting another whole army, it's OK. Now with the Orks fixed, only sporadic and occasional units are penalized like this.
Regarding always hitting in combat...does anyone really think a rank and file fire warrior has a 1/6th chance to hit Lelith? That should be a zero as well.
That fluff was indicated in codex ONCE in like 3rd ed as THEORY by in universum in character. The whole "orks believe so things work" is actually not all that strong canon thus...More if internet meme that has gone wild.
And you don't need to believe to hit. Just fire enough shots. Or blind luck.
And above all: Impossible to hit is BAD GAME DESIGN! Maybe less selfish "orks have been treated unfairly so let other now be unfairly treated in revenge!" attitude common with 3-4 year kids and more what is good for the game.
Yeah I am sure the Vulture pilot accurately tries to shoot both his Punishers right on target, and not BRRRRRRRT the entire area, everyone should have the 6+ is auto hit rule
I think it's hilarious that it's becoming true that anything orks believe in becomes true, simply because we believe it to be true.
GW is not above playing into memes. This has been going on for two decades now, they gave Yarrick an eye that shoots lasers and justified it in fluff as him playing on the orks' fear that he has "an evil eye".
I personally don't trust DDD because I think it's going to end up being far more powerful than initially expected. I hope they limit the units it is available only. If there are characters (or buffed units) which are firing strong weapons and hitting decently, but generating extra shots/hits on sixes, it'll end up being really obnoxious...and I suspect boyz will still be cheap and way too good for their cost. If used on heavy weapons it'll allow heavy weapons to hit on '6's and generate extra hits even if they're moving, and shooting at stuff with spells/buffs/cover, etc. I just "think" this will end up being more game-breaking than people are giving it credit for, unless it's applied very carefully.
Elbows wrote: I personally don't trust DDD because I think it's going to end up being far more powerful than initially expected. I hope they limit the units it is available only. If there are characters (or buffed units) which are firing strong weapons and hitting decently, but generating extra shots/hits on sixes, it'll end up being really obnoxious...and I suspect boyz will still be cheap and way too good for their cost. If used on heavy weapons it'll allow heavy weapons to hit on '6's and generate extra hits even if they're moving, and shooting at stuff with spells/buffs/cover, etc. I just "think" this will end up being more game-breaking than people are giving it credit for, unless it's applied very carefully.
I think you are wrong and should probably wait until there are results to support your theory.
This is nowhere near as powerful, for example, as the ability to "soup".
It is nowhere near as powerful as the ability to cancel a stratagem.
Billagio wrote: I’ve never seen so many ork players butthurt over a rule that benefits them
Players are hesitant because
* Always hitting on 6's should be a core rule, as a counterpart to Always missing on 1's. If anything, this as a base rule (sans the extra attack portion) will be added in 2018's Chaper Approved.
* DakkaDakkaDakka is a very marginal HIT increase; if you're against a -1, or more, to-hit; you have a 1/6 chance of hitting, and a 1/36 chance of getting a second hit. Every 100 shots = ~2.7 HITS - that still need to go through the Wound/Armor Save/FNP process.
* This is the key one:
** Due to the "additional firepower" DakkaDakkaDakka provides, GW is not likely to increase the baseline stats of the weapons themselves, or the important parts of the process that really matters = "If Ork players roll all 6's, it's we doubled their firepower for free!", "There's no way they need MORE buffs!".
DakkaDakkaDakka does nothing to solve the actual problems with Ork shooting - which is to say, quantity of shots, pricings, or the fact that even a -1 to-hit modifiers HALVES our shooting output. A 50% reduction on an EXTREMELY common modifier is no joke.
"But at least you have a chance to hit at all! Some factions can NO ability to hit at all, if the opponent stacks modifiers!" - What a brilliant game mechanic that is. At least those other armies only get their firepower -25% (3+), -33% (4+), or -50% (5+). Add on top a -1 to-hit penalty for moving, or a -1 to-hit penalty for Advancing and shooting...
Orks will always be at -1 to-hit. The "Evil Sunz" rumored Klan trait will help alleviate that - but it won't solve the core issues with the army, and with the game.
That fluff was indicated in codex ONCE in like 3rd ed as THEORY by in universum in character. The whole "orks believe so things work" is actually not all that strong canon thus...More if internet meme that has gone wild.
Its actually pretty central in the beast arises, and featured in the fluff book with all thr dissection of xeno. It's recent and cannon, you just dont like it
Billagio wrote: I’ve never seen so many ork players butthurt over a rule that benefits them
Players are hesitant because
* Always hitting on 6's should be a core rule, as a counterpart to Always missing on 1's. If anything, this as a base rule (sans the extra attack portion) will be added in 2018's Chaper Approved.
* DakkaDakkaDakka is a very marginal HIT increase; if you're against a -1, or more, to-hit; you have a 1/6 chance of hitting, and a 1/36 chance of getting a second hit. Every 100 shots = ~2.7 HITS - that still need to go through the Wound/Armor Save/FNP process.
* This is the key one:
** Due to the "additional firepower" DakkaDakkaDakka provides, GW is not likely to increase the baseline stats of the weapons themselves, or the important parts of the process that really matters = "If Ork players roll all 6's, it's we doubled their firepower for free!", "There's no way they need MORE buffs!".
DakkaDakkaDakka does nothing to solve the actual problems with Ork shooting - which is to say, quantity of shots, pricings, or the fact that even a -1 to-hit modifiers HALVES our shooting output. A 50% reduction on an EXTREMELY common modifier is no joke.
"But at least you have a chance to hit at all! Some factions can NO ability to hit at all, if the opponent stacks modifiers!" - What a brilliant game mechanic that is. At least those other armies only get their firepower -25% (3+), -33% (4+), or -50% (5+). Add on top a -1 to-hit penalty for moving, or a -1 to-hit penalty for Advancing and shooting...
Orks will always be at -1 to-hit. The "Evil Sunz" rumored Klan trait will help alleviate that - but it won't solve the core issues with the army, and with the game.
But hey, just need to roll all those 6's!
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
Because orks simply hold down the trigger and spray bullets everywhere... sometimes even towards the enemy. How would your fancy git tech or sneaky shennigans help when my units dont even try to aim but just spray wildly until they run our of ammo?
Which isn't something only orks can do. If you can't see enemy but you know it's somewhere over there shoot.
Always hits on 6 needs to be core rule. That or be special rule for any faction that has any units that can in any situation go to 7+. Anything else is bad game design.
Most armies tend to have an ammo capacity to their guns or logistics to worry about though.
I like to think about it from a snipers point of view. If there was a squad of like 5 howling banshees that could cloak. They go invisible while advancing. The Sniper firing a shot at a time is less likely to hit them than the horde of orks just holding down the trigger. This scenario is the DDD rule and the sniper while very unlikely, is the now 7+ to hit. Even though I don't think any player has realistically had snipers hit 7+
This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
Yes, but using Orks BS5+ as the baseline; Space Marines start at 200% firepower, and Guard/Tau start at 150% firepower - never minding that all those armies have a plethora of easy ways to get a +1 to-hit (Devastator Captain, Overlapping Fields of Fire/Searchlight, Markerlights; etc). Also, -1 is an extremely common baseline; whereas -2/3/4 are much harder, and require more combinations to get.
So while Orks can lose "the least", they're also the easiest to reduce, in addition to having zero ways to regain lost shooting potential.
This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.
Meanwhile, "Getting Lucky" is NOT the counter to mathhammer. It's very easy to calculate expected outcomes. and if you're trying to say that Imperial shooting is weaker, well...
It's EXACTLY the reason that DakkaDakkaDakka will be overvalued by GW, leading to Ork shooting being sub-par in the codex - "Look at this army wide buff we gave them! All they have to do is roll 6's, and they get double firepower, for FREE!".
Nevermind they also have easy access to rerolls.
Something of which orks lack almost completely, save for Badrukk and now a couple klan rules get minor rerolls (reroll 1s when we hit on 5s is pretty minor but given the weight of dice still going to be noticable, while even the 3+ marines just get flat reroll misses)
im still baffled they gave such an awesome rule to the orks...im so used to us getting uber shafted...
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
Yes, but using Orks BS5+ as the baseline; Space Marines start at 200% firepower, and Guard/Tau start at 150% firepower - never minding that all those armies have a plethora of easy ways to get a +1 to-hit (Devastator Captain, Overlapping Fields of Fire/Searchlight, Markerlights; etc). Also, -1 is an extremely common baseline; whereas -2/3/4 are much harder, and require more combinations to get.
So while Orks can lose "the least", they're also the easiest to reduce, in addition to having zero ways to regain lost shooting potential.
Well, when a space marine costs more than twice that of an ork, I would say double firepower isn't even fair to marines.
Let's try to quantify these percentages a bit using EQUAL points of units:
Normal rolls:
- 30 ork boyz hit 23 times with S4 up to 18"
- 14 marines hit 18 times with S4 up to 12"
- 26 tau hit 26 times with S5 up to 15"
With -1 to hit:
- 30 orks hit 13 times
- 14 marines hit 14 times
- 26 tau hit 17 times
Now, the dreaded -2 to hit:
- 30 orks hit... 13 times
- 14 marines hit 9 times
- 26 tau hit 8 times
So I'm going to say you're blowing this way out of proportion.
This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.
Meanwhile, "Getting Lucky" is NOT the counter to mathhammer. It's very easy to calculate expected outcomes. and if you're trying to say that Imperial shooting is weaker, well...
It's EXACTLY the reason that DakkaDakkaDakka will be overvalued by GW, leading to Ork shooting being sub-par in the codex - "Look at this army wide buff we gave them! All they have to do is roll 6's, and they get double firepower, for FREE!".
And yet you did not even do the math to see how orks fare compared to equal points of other models... see above.
This whole retort shows that you didn't understand my point. Please try to follow the context of the conversation.
- There will always be a lucky shot from anybody be it marine, tau or ork.
- having 6s always hit represents that model "getting lucky". Much like how there is no guaranteed hit, there is no guaranteed miss.
Now, if you had bothered to understand the context, the other poster was saying only orks should hit on 6s because they spray and pray while "snipers" take careful shots while completely ignoring imperial units that choke the air with bullets. So I ask again: why should a rokkit get 6s always hit due to spray and pray but not a punisher cannon?
Your second point is pure speculation based on marketing, and you misquoted the marketing to make it seem more over the top than it was... so it's baseless.
Curious what the board game will be like. Over the past couple of years they've made some pretty decent stuff (B@C, DWOK, Execution Force) and some less impressive (Prospero, Gangs of Commoragh).
But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
Yes, but using Orks BS5+ as the baseline; Space Marines start at 200% firepower, and Guard/Tau start at 150% firepower - never minding that all those armies have a plethora of easy ways to get a +1 to-hit (Devastator Captain, Overlapping Fields of Fire/Searchlight, Markerlights; etc). Also, -1 is an extremely common baseline; whereas -2/3/4 are much harder, and require more combinations to get.
So while Orks can lose "the least", they're also the easiest to reduce, in addition to having zero ways to regain lost shooting potential.
Well, when a space marine costs more than twice that of an ork, I would say double firepower isn't even fair to marines.
Let's try to quantify these percentages a bit using EQUAL points of units:
Normal rolls:
- 30 ork boyz hit 23 times with S4 up to 18"
- 14 marines hit 18 times with S4 up to 12"
- 26 tau hit 26 times with S5 up to 15"
With -1 to hit:
- 30 orks hit 13 times
- 14 marines hit 14 times
- 26 tau hit 17 times
Now, the dreaded -2 to hit:
- 30 orks hit... 13 times
- 14 marines hit 9 times
- 26 tau hit 8 times
So I'm going to say you're blowing this way out of proportion.
This whole logic falls apart when you apply it to one shot ork weapons (rokkits) and multishot imperial weapons (punisher cannons). So tell me, which has the greatest chance of getting lucky and hitting at least once?
You see, if we apply the 6s always hit to a big shoota and a sniper rifle, the big shoota is still 3 times as likely to hit at least once compared to the sniper rifle because it gets 3 attacks. But the sniper rifle still has a chance to get lucky. it's just that it gets fewer opportunities to get that chance.
Also, Tau Sniper Drones start at BS 5+ and need babysitters to get to BS 4+. They can feasibly get knocked down to BS 7+.
Meanwhile, "Getting Lucky" is NOT the counter to mathhammer. It's very easy to calculate expected outcomes. and if you're trying to say that Imperial shooting is weaker, well...
It's EXACTLY the reason that DakkaDakkaDakka will be overvalued by GW, leading to Ork shooting being sub-par in the codex - "Look at this army wide buff we gave them! All they have to do is roll 6's, and they get double firepower, for FREE!".
And yet you did not even do the math to see how orks fare compared to equal points of other models... see above.
This whole retort shows that you didn't understand my point. Please try to follow the context of the conversation.
- There will always be a lucky shot from anybody be it marine, tau or ork.
- having 6s always hit represents that model "getting lucky". Much like how there is no guaranteed hit, there is no guaranteed miss.
Now, if you had bothered to understand the context, the other poster was saying only orks should hit on 6s because they spray and pray while "snipers" take careful shots while completely ignoring imperial units that choke the air with bullets. So I ask again: why should a rokkit get 6s always hit due to spray and pray but not a punisher cannon?
Your second point is pure speculation based on marketing, and you misquoted the marketing to make it seem more over the top than it was... so it's baseless.
Aaah. But aren't you completely ignoring durability? Aren't you also ignoring synergies between units and things that actually effect games (like cover, LOS etc)? It seems to me you are.
Wait until Orks have their codex before you pillage our rules. The 'always hit on a 6' will not be the fix you think it is, even if its made global.
The proper fix to this problem is to stop -1 to hit modifiers stacking. God knows the factions with -1 to hit need a nerf.
I'd be happy with a "no stacking from the same army" rule
so those space elves can have their -1 to hit from save camo cloaks or whatever, they cannot stack a further -1 on here for -2, if they have anything that gives -2 they can use that instead.
someone on the other side say moving a heavy weapon or advancing can also incur a further -1, which again won't stack with anything else they do (say a psi power they are suffering from)
both players army stuff stacks, say to -2 as a usual maximum, but neither player can easily inflict it upon the other without the others cooperation.
personally if the game is going to have to hit negative modifiers (an idea I like), it should also have positive to hit modifiers - say standing still being a +1, larger targets being +1 or maybe even +2 - heavier "anti tank" weapons can then have a base -2 or maybe -3 to hit even, rendering elite infantry largely safe from them, but actual armoured vehicles in danger
To me the big issue with the negative to hit modifiers are just the army wide traits. If those were removed from the game (which I'm still hoping for) I'd essentially be fine with the system.
Some units are latently difficult to shoot? Fine, no issue there. You have a relic/psychic power that makes units difficult to shoot? Okay.
Even if you can combine the two I'm still okay with it but as an army wide rule it's just too darn good. It's basically auto-take.
PiñaColada wrote: To me the big issue with the negative to hit modifiers are just the army wide traits. If those were removed from the game (which I'm still hoping for) I'd essentially be fine with the system.
Some units are latently difficult to shoot? Fine, no issue there. You have a relic/psychic power that makes units difficult to shoot? Okay.
Even if you can combine the two I'm still okay with it but as an army wide rule it's just too darn good. It's basically auto-take.
Exactly. Those army-wide negs to hit are absolutely bad for the game because they throw all internal balance out of the window.
Craftworld players, if they want to be competitive at least, are forced to take Alaitoc. Any faction that has the ability under almost any circumstance will always take it, it's poor design.
Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.
I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.
JeffVimes wrote: Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.
I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.
I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.
Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.
I know I'm in the crazy minority here, but since I'm not using too many boyz I've already put mine on 32's. It just looks so much better. I understand why green tide players don't want this but for me it's just an aesthetic choice.
Ignoring the difference in how green tide would play out on the table, aren't there base extenders you can buy for pretty cheap instead of literally rebasing?
well, if we have to rebase for tournaments, look at the bright side, if other things in the codex are good then we might not have to rebase 100 boys for tourneys (just rebase what you need).
of course there is no bright side for greentide only players...muwahahauhauhauafidsdblshdbf
Dandelion wrote: But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.
GW can rebase new boxes all they want. My models will stay with 25mm. If somebody gets headache from it that's too bad for him/her. Though I offer him that I'll rebase if a) he pays all the new bases b) he does all the rebasing(without any damage whatsoever to models) c) he buys new movement trays.
All told I expect that to be few hundred's euros and tons of time. But if somebody is really willing to do all that then guess I can consider just for laughs.
Dandelion wrote: But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.
-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons. Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.
Dandelion wrote: But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.
-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons.
Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.
I think what he is saying, is that a natural -2 to hit is not very common at all. And, even a self imposed negative (like advancing and shooting or moving a heavy weapon) is only really getting to -2 when you are playing vs Alaitoc or Raven Guard, or shooting a flyer. Vs the other 98% of armies and factions, you'll only ever get to a -1.
I'm interested in the rules for the Speed Freeks game, especially the movement rules. A friend has a large Ork army, I have a lot of Elysian Drop Troops and quite a sew Space Marine bikes and Land Speeders; lifting the movement rules from this game might be a good way to re-do the "rolling road" scenario, an example of which is in Imperial Armour vol 8.
JimOnMars wrote: If there is less than 8.33% percent chance of hitting anything, it rounds to 0 on a D6. [...] If it is closer to zero than 1, it's a zero.
Hello, let me introduce you to this wonderful concept known as... REROLLS! Have you ever heard of them? They can make things easier or harder while still using D6.
Dandelion wrote: But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.
-2 is quite common though. If you advance with an assault weapon and shoot at raven guard or whatever their equivalents are, that's an easily attained -2 right there. Orks tend to have assault weapons.
Its most likely why they have that natural roll of a 6 will hit clause; otherwise Orks would never be able to advance against the likes of raven guard an what not, as they'd be hitting on 7+.
I think what he is saying, is that a natural -2 to hit is not very common at all. And, even a self imposed negative (like advancing and shooting or moving a heavy weapon) is only really getting to -2 when you are playing vs Alaitoc or Raven Guard, or shooting a flyer. Vs the other 98% of armies and factions, you'll only ever get to a -1.
Yes. that would be the extension of what I said. Allaitoc eldar can have a large amount of -2 to hit models by combining their trait with either innate -1, stratagem, relics and psychic powers. The can have TWO units at maximum with -3 (one of them flyer or infantry, one bike or infantry) - or - ONE infantry or jetbike unit with -4.
Ravenguard has their trait limited to only infantry, bikes and dreads, so the worst that can happen is a dread popping smoke and forgoing its shooting phase once per game for -2. Dark Angel players fielding darkshrouds are more likely to have multiple -2 hit units than ravenguard.
Alpha legion is even less of a problem, since hellbrutes don't get smokes, the worst thing that can happen is a sorcerer casting Miasma of Pestilence on a unit marked by nurgle. All good things tend to have marks of slanesh though.
I honestly have never meta an AdMech player using their -1 to hit faction, for whatever that is worth.
Most other armies either have single units that can reach -2 (for example, the ghostkeel) to hit or can archive it on very few units by combining a psychic powers with hard to hit from a plane, a relic on a character or some -1 aura. Outside of characters with relics -3 to hits is almost non-existent unless you help by moving heavy weapons/advancing assault weapons.
What's left is some weapons and powers that can debuff a single one of your units with -1 to hit. In that case, you can simply opt to not shoot that unit at something that already has -1 to hit modifiers, just like you don't shoot moving tanks at planes.
Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers
so the speedfreeks game seems to come with its own unique dice, they seem to be held behind a screen in 3 different categories.
i imagin a player plans their turn ahead, rolling the dice to see what their options are and then assign those to 3 different attributes, like speed/attack/maneuverability etc. then the player will at some point reveal what they have planned, like one chooses to atk and then the other reveals what their defense was the whole time.
also there is what looks like a unique ruler that help plots your course for you buggies/bikes, though i imagine the bikes are better at maneuvers then a buggie.
terrain is also present so i guess there are rules for interacting with terrain (not so much getting cover but using it for ramps or being forced into it for crashes) ,of course it could simply be like old gorkamorka and act like goals to collect in the game (like scrap).
i dont expect the rules to be complicated or detailed like gorkamorka, but something to quickly have a fun game/campaign. they said the other new vehicles will be available for the game so the rulebook itself might have their profiles already or they will releases these rules and probably scenarios in whitedwarf.
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Gargskull wrote: Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers
i would expect everything in the video is in the box game. GW does not have a habit of including things in "box game" reveal videos that is not in the game (also many of the previous boxset games got their own game mats).
JeffVimes wrote: Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.
I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.
I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.
Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.
But if you decide to add to the army later you are screwed, from the switch in base size onwards your colection is dead if you dont rebase everything.
PiñaColada wrote: I know I'm in the crazy minority here, but since I'm not using too many boyz I've already put mine on 32's. It just looks so much better. I understand why green tide players don't want this but for me it's just an aesthetic choice.
Ignoring the difference in how green tide would play out on the table, aren't there base extenders you can buy for pretty cheap instead of literally rebasing?
You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc
Gargskull wrote: Sorry, murky lurker here just stopping in for a quick question.
Speed Freeks looks great, as someone who doesn't have time for the big games anymore I am very interested, just wanted to know if the desert boards are included?
It looks like a contents pic so I guess so but you never know.
Cheers
An Actual Englishman wrote: You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc.
Oh God, why did it take me like 10 seconds to get that Anorky reference? But yes, I'm also playing Evil Sunz. I actually hadn't noticed the bases were different but I'll either swap them or try and find some extenders. I'm actually repainting a lot of my army at the moment so this won't be such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully we can buy those bases standalone from GW and not part of some collection blister pack...
I also believe the mat (or cardboard) is included in the game. It looks like the same type of board you'd get in Kill Team. I'm guessing it's foldable since you can see the pattern repeating, or not meshing perfectly, a bit like a cross in the middle. Anyone dare to guess the size of that thing? Someone eagle-eyed could extrapolate the size of it though comparing it with the warbikes
JeffVimes wrote: Words from the youtube channel French Wargame Studio (which has been quite a reliable source of rumors this year) is that boys will now be based in 32mm.
I really can't face the idea to rebase my hundreds of boys ... I hope he is wrong on this one.
I wouldn't worry too much, GW have always stated that we can use the bases the kit came with when purchased with so I'll be keeping mine on their current bases.
Same with my bikes, I'll not be rebasing them on the larger oval ones, even if that's what's provided from GW from now on.
But if you decide to add to the army later you are screwed, from the switch in base size onwards your colection is dead if you dont rebase everything.
there is no way in hell i will rebase 200 orks.
A) mixing bases is valid b) you buy box of orks and put them to 25mm base who is going to know?
An Actual Englishman wrote: You play Evil Sunz (of Anorky) right? Like me? It looks like the Warbikes are on different bases too if Speed Freeks is anything to go by - are you going to rebase all those? I'm not, largely because I'd then have to find another way to transport them and I've done a fair few popping wheelies, skidding and doing an endo etc.
Oh God, why did it take me like 10 seconds to get that Anorky reference? But yes, I'm also playing Evil Sunz. I actually hadn't noticed the bases were different but I'll either swap them or try and find some extenders. I'm actually repainting a lot of my army at the moment so this won't be such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully we can buy those bases standalone from GW and not part of some collection blister pack...
I also believe the mat (or cardboard) is included in the game. It looks like the same type of board you'd get in Kill Team. I'm guessing it's foldable since you can see the pattern repeating, or not meshing perfectly, a bit like a cross in the middle. Anyone dare to guess the size of that thing? Someone eagle-eyed could extrapolate the size of it though comparing it with the warbikes
Something like 3x4? Guessing from the (presumably) a4 book on it.
But then I don't know how that would work with the boxes because it looks like it's folded into 4 and GW are generally only 1 foot wide
I used them for my marines and they look good even if you don't paint them. Cheaper than new bases as well.
Thats only an option if you dont care much how the army looks.
No, not all all. First, a black rim around a nice base looks surprisingly good and second it is really easy to paint/flock/do whatever the ring the same as the rest of your base. You won't see a difference to a normal 32mm base.
That easyness depends on how you base. For me would require cutting thin cardboard pieces for specific sizes but not in same so almost custom sized several per base...
I used them for my marines and they look good even if you don't paint them. Cheaper than new bases as well.
Thats only an option if you dont care much how the army looks.
No, not all all. First, a black rim around a nice base looks surprisingly good and second it is really easy to paint/flock/do whatever the ring the same as the rest of your base. You won't see a difference to a normal 32mm base.
I really dont agree that a black rim looks good, with bases made to match a terrain board a full mob of orks will look really daft. It is just as much work with sand, stones, paints, grass and tufts to blend the rims as it is to rebase the whole model.
Switchin base size is a terrible idea and it is bloody annoying, besides the aestethic it is also a stealth nerf to orks.
The only issue I've seen for the base adapters is that alot of the damn Orks have half their feet sticking off the bases. You need to start to trim away at their clunky boots to slide the adapter under.
Now, I'm probably going to end up doing just that (for my own OCD), but it isn't gonna be as easy as it seems.
Rebase my boys up to 32's? Never going to happen.
32MM bases for boys is the devil.
I did decide my burnas and lootas would be better off on 32MM bases and just got a package of 100 for maybe 1$5.00 usd from china. Unfortunately I may not have ordered enough for all of them. I've no idea how many of both I have in total I stopped counting at "lots". If I am lucky the headache will pas some time this week.. good news it's Friday!
lord_blackfang wrote: You can bet your pretty, little, hard-to-cut heads that the board is 22x30 or a multiple thereof.
Well if you look at the photo of the contents - the speed freeks book is going to be 11 inches high if that's a normal GW booklet size. It looks to be from the looks of the bases.
It doesnt look like one quarter of the board fits one length of that into it like a kill team board does - and the board seems to have obvious lines on it that split it into quarters, so fancy folding to get 6 pieces and still fit into a standard box doesn't seem possible.
Someone mentioned this briefly a few pages back or perhaps in a different thread:
20 Boyz in a BW, on 32mm bases. Unless you're completely clear of other friendly/enemy models nearby and terrain - have fun unloading them legally.
Also things like Da Jump (or the rumoured teleport stratagem) setting up 30(or mobbed up 40) Boyz 9" away from enemy / within 6" (i think?) of table edge. That gets a whole lot harder to do legally on 32mm.
Not to mention we've come from a meta of 150-200 boyz. Fitting them on table, attempting to cover with KFF. Becomes a much more difficult logistical task.
Also there would be no differentiation between the 'horde' units of boyz and more elite units within Orks or in other factions.
To me (and probably those with much common sense) it sounds absolutely ludicrous to change from 25 >> 32mm... So... GW will probably do it!
No way im re basing. Most of my boys are AOBR and have that little slot at their feet that goes into the base. I would have to cut that off, too much work over 200 models
Aaah. But aren't you completely ignoring durability? Aren't you also ignoring synergies between units and things that actually effect games (like cover, LOS etc)? It seems to me you are.
Wait until Orks have their codex before you pillage our rules. The 'always hit on a 6' will not be the fix you think it is, even if its made global.
The proper fix to this problem is to stop -1 to hit modifiers stacking. God knows the factions with -1 to hit need a nerf.
*sigh*
Your point about durability is moot given the context of the conversation. The other guy was throwing out percentages without considering points costs at all. Things like marines being twice as shooty despite having fewer models and shots.
I never said 6s always hit will be some magical fix, but it is an important failsafe mechanic just in case. If I play my tau, and decide to move my markerlights against -2 to hit... then I don't get to hit at all. Or how about my gun/recon/sniper drones that have BS 5+? This problem has come up in armies other than orks, so stop being greedy.
If -1 to hits don't stack then ghostkeel drones become useless since that's literally the only thing they do.
And yes, factions should not have army wide -1 to hit.
Dandelion wrote: But on the other hand, Orks will never suffer more than a 50% loss of firepower ever, while guard and tau can easily lose 66% and marines with some prodding can lose 75% firepower. (assuming always hits on 6s)
As explained above, anything above -2 to hit is incredibly rare and can only be done on very few units in the first place and is usually limited to one or two on the entire battlefield or even to once per battle.
My whole point was that 6s always hits would benefit orks the most. Against something like -2 to hit, orks don't care but Tau are still very much affected. So I don't see what's the big deal with making it a universal rule.
Dandelion wrote: I never said 6s always hit will be some magical fix, but it is an important failsafe mechanic just in case. If I play my tau, and decide to move my markerlights against -2 to hit... then I don't get to hit at all. Or how about my gun/recon/sniper drones that have BS 5+? This problem has come up in armies other than orks, so stop being greedy.
How often did your tau army have zero units that could shoot any enemy model, despite 1k+ points of shooting units being left on the board? An allitoc army fielding their rangers, hemlocks and wave serpents is not uncommon at all. The hemlocks can take out most of your big guns/mek guns in one turn, leaving you with nothing but BS5+ models. Even if they don't, 2 CP makes the first target you shoot immune as well in response to you declaring shots. Tank bustas can't hit them at all, lootaz can't hit them, buggies can't hit them, koptas can't hit them, nauts can't hit them, stompas can't hit them, no other anti-tank weapon can. An autarch or farseer with the proper relic doesn't need to care for character protection, because nothing can hit him from outside 12" anyways, wave serpents move onto objectives, their passengers can be buffed to -2 with a warlock.
You basically skip your shooting phase until you are within 12".
The only BS4 units we have are gretchin (who don't kill gak shooting), big guns/mek guns, kanz, dakkajet, flash gits and Badrukk. This -2 to hit problem completely invalidates every other shooting option.
The issue is not some units not being able to shoot some models und certain circumstances. The issue is an entire army not being able to shot another entire army, despite spending lots of points on dedicated shooting units.
No other army has this problem, Tau have commanders and hammerheads that can still kill things with -2 to hit, nids have tyrants and hive guard, AM has tank commanders and veterans. Most of them even have access to some characters with decent 2+ shooting. Orks have... nothing.
So no, the problem has not come up with other armies. If you want to hit an allaitoc wave sperpent with your markerlight, don't move it.
Dandelion wrote: My whole point was that 6s always hits would benefit orks the most. Against something like -2 to hit, orks don't care but Tau are still very much affected. So I don't see what's the big deal with making it a universal rule.
-2 to hit still costs 50% of our shooting. Tau lose more on their BS4 models, but equal or less on others.
Tau(or anyone else) simply don't need the "always hit on six" rule because they never face the issue of an entire army being unable to shoot due to modifiers. There is no need for moving, fully degraded artillery tanks being able to hit stealth bombers.
Dandelion wrote: *sigh*
Your point about durability is moot given the context of the conversation. The other guy was throwing out percentages without considering points costs at all. Things like marines being twice as shooty despite having fewer models and shots.
I never said 6s always hit will be some magical fix, but it is an important failsafe mechanic just in case. If I play my tau, and decide to move my markerlights against -2 to hit... then I don't get to hit at all. Or how about my gun/recon/sniper drones that have BS 5+? This problem has come up in armies other than orks, so stop being greedy.
If -1 to hits don't stack then ghostkeel drones become useless since that's literally the only thing they do.
If you want to discuss the full positives and negatives of a unit you need to consider durability, I'm afraid. If you're considering points costs and output you are into considering all aspects of the model territory. Ignoring the aspects of a unit that don't suit your argument is not a good way to prove your point.
I'm not too worried about your drones to be honest. Is there anything else in your dex that has 5+ BS? The majority of our shooting units have it and hence why the fix was required. Don't mistake it for greed, your drones simply don't need the fix when the rest of your army has no issue.
I guess ghostkeel drones need a new purpose then?
Jidmah wrote: How often did your tau army have zero units that could shoot any enemy model, despite 1k+ points of shooting units being left on the board? An allitoc army fielding their rangers, hemlocks and wave serpents is not uncommon at all....... If you want to hit an allaitoc wave sperpent with your markerlight, don't move it.
Dandelion wrote: My whole point was that 6s always hits would benefit orks the most. Against something like -2 to hit, orks don't care but Tau are still very much affected. So I don't see what's the big deal with making it a universal rule.
-2 to hit still costs 50% of our shooting. Tau lose more on their BS4 models, but equal or less on others.
Tau(or anyone else) simply don't need the "always hit on six" rule because they never face the issue of an entire army being unable to shoot due to modifiers. There is no need for moving, fully degraded artillery tanks being able to hit stealth bombers.
There's no need for "stealth" bombers. Hemlocks and Wraithfighters aren't stealth bombers anyways, it's literally just an interaction between the Craftworld trait and the Flyer's special rule.
Remove one or the other and boom, that fixes a lot of issues with those things.
That said, he's not wrong. 6s always hitting as a universal rule isn't unreasonable.
Yeah I really hope they don't change the base size for orks because I know for a fact I won't do it on account of how much work it would be to manually go through and rebase every ork on top of how expensive that would add up to be. I don't want to have the conversation every single game about my base sizes with Orks. It was annoying enough with basic marines, but the base difference for them was rather minor, but the size increases would be a massive hit for ork green tides reducing you from fighting in four ranks to just two. Base size really matters here.
On top of everything that's been discussed, those other armies have multiple, easy, ways of getting +1 to-hits; each in their own ways.
Also, we keep talking about total number of HITS. I feel that if we're not picking targets and calculating wounds/armor saves/FNP; we're only seeing half of the equation.
You're absolutely right that points costs need to be taken into account when comparing numbers, but...
...so too do weapon stats. Orks HAVE to keep moving forward, they have no way to gunline outside of Grots. The vast majority of their weapons are 24" or shorter; which means you're always moving, as well as potentially advancing; which is to say most weapons will also be getting an innate -1 just for trying to be used. That sucks when you're BS5+ and have no other ways to get accuracy increases.
Hitting on 6's flatly was NEEDED for an Ork army to even try and function.
Edit: With regards to the rest of the thread:
1) I don't plan to rebase to 32mm - it'd be a lot of work; but far more importantly, it'd have gameplay implications for how many Boyz you can get in a melee/easily deploy.
2) "Always hits on 6's" absolutely should have been a core rule, as a counter to "Always misses on 1's" (and to stop -X to-hit stacking too far).
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
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fe40k wrote: On top of everything that's been discussed, those other armies have multiple, easy, ways of getting +1 to-hits; each in their own ways.
Also, we keep talking about total number of HITS. I feel that if we're not picking targets and calculating wounds/armor saves/FNP; we're only seeing half of the equation.
You're absolutely right that points costs need to be taken into account when comparing numbers, but...
...so too do weapon stats. Orks HAVE to keep moving forward, they have no way to gunline outside of Grots. The vast majority of their weapons are 24" or shorter; which means you're always moving, as well as potentially advancing; which is to say most weapons will also be getting an innate -1 just for trying to be used. That sucks when you're BS5+ and have no other ways to get accuracy increases.
Hitting on 6's flatly was NEEDED for an Ork army to even try and function.
No one is arguing that orks didn't need the 6s always hit. I just wanted to point out that: A) it should be a core rule and B) ork shooting isn't necessarily garbage since point costs and weapon profiles can and will change.
Stop trying to make this anything other than that.
I don't think they'll rebase the boyz, but they might do that with nobz. Since Meganobz and Flash Gitz are on 40mm bases (and the latter is designed to be compatible with the nobz) it would make sense for bigger orks to be on bigger bases. Plus conversions of nobz with FG bodies that are on 40mm bases would be more common and legit.
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
Same attitude why certain people wanted wraithknight nerfed into total useless garbage. Revenge.
I am going to be shamelessly honest. I don't care that the WK is garbage this edition. It should be. Another point to be shameless about. I don't care if the ork codex comes out OP. It will get adjusted eventually and I will be able to take any units out of my collection and have a chance of winning, I can even play the units nobody uses just because they will stand a chance. I guess this may just mean good codex synergy to some people. Now if it's 1 busted build I'll be a bit upset.
Also for the people saying that the DDD rule of always hitting on 6s should be a core rule. Maybe instead of just debating that how about adding an extra rule aspect to DDD to replace that which may be taken and given to everyone. I think that might help some of the animosity that is appearing on this thread. We have kind of derailed this thread from rumors and/or speed freaks topics.
as much as I want my tau to auto hit on 6s, tbh I don't see it as a core rule 'til either 9th or another codex. The rule is fresh and it will make it redundant if it came in CA right away.
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.
im enjoying the QQ from other races considering practically every other race player laughed in my face when we got the 7th codex and said "well that sucks better learn to deal with it"
Orks finally get something really strong nobody else has. I relish in the tears im seeing!
I might actually rebase my models if the base sizes change because, first of all, I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to Da Rules and I'm pretty sure I recall GW once saying that the base a model ships with is its official size. Two, and more importantly, I'm not too happy with how my bases look right now, and I've been wanting to make them more complex for a while now. This would be the excuse the actually do it.
Vitali Advenil wrote: I'm kind of a stickler when it comes to Da Rules and I'm pretty sure I recall GW once saying that the base a model ships with is its official size.
They did not say this thing; tehy have said in the past you may use the base a model came with, but not that the base it currently comes with is in any way official
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
Same attitude why certain people wanted wraithknight nerfed into total useless garbage. Revenge.
Tneva can you stop pretending that you speak for anyone except for your dumb self? Just for once?
Did you ever consider it might be something like;
JimOnMars wrote: I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.
Or perhaps because I like the idea of Orks having something uniquely powerful, for once? Like what every other race expects as standard?
E - Good spot on the bases arkapello. I won't be rebasing my models though. Certainly not any time soon anyway.
The amount of people whining over the Orks always being able to hit on 6's is staggering!
Back to the topic on hand, I just sold my Ork bike army to a friend about 6 months ago and now I have to rebuild it, at least in part, because those ork buggies look amazing. So does that war boss on the bike. Figure I'll have to get 2 speed freak boxes, one of three new bosses on the trike, and some forge world nob bikers. That'll give me a pretty sweet little speed freak army.
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
I don't think any ork player is against it. What has been suggested by me and others is that the non-ork players who are QQing about it have plenty of options the orks never had. We are just pointing out that the QQing is pretty rich, considering what the QQers have (and have had for a long, long time) in their codexes, and will get a long just fine without it.
This.
Basically everyone who has a single 5+ shooting unit in their codex is now crying like a baby how they have it worse than orks.
Bobthehero wrote: Jeez, remind me to link this thread when there a ''Ork players are awesome'' popping up
I think most Ork players are awesome. I think that written communication on the Internet just tends to lead to misunderstandings, and the discussion that follows the misunderstanding leads to more misunderstandings, and eventually it compounds into vicious arguments over incredibly minor disagreements. So it's not so much that Ork players are actually a bunch of jerks, it's just that web forums make everyone seem like a jerk.
If other armies don't "need" 6s to hit then why in the world are you against it? If it's so minor why fight it at all? That's what I don't get.
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fe40k wrote: On top of everything that's been discussed, those other armies have multiple, easy, ways of getting +1 to-hits; each in their own ways.
Also, we keep talking about total number of HITS. I feel that if we're not picking targets and calculating wounds/armor saves/FNP; we're only seeing half of the equation.
You're absolutely right that points costs need to be taken into account when comparing numbers, but...
...so too do weapon stats. Orks HAVE to keep moving forward, they have no way to gunline outside of Grots. The vast majority of their weapons are 24" or shorter; which means you're always moving, as well as potentially advancing; which is to say most weapons will also be getting an innate -1 just for trying to be used. That sucks when you're BS5+ and have no other ways to get accuracy increases.
Hitting on 6's flatly was NEEDED for an Ork army to even try and function.
No one is arguing that orks didn't need the 6s always hit. I just wanted to point out that: A) it should be a core rule and B) ork shooting isn't necessarily garbage since point costs and weapon profiles can and will change.
Stop trying to make this anything other than that.
I see it a bit differently I think.
I absolutely agree it should have been part of the core rules and I am thrilled it is in AoS now.
To me it seems like giving it to every army in the next faq is a , for lack of a better term, slap in the mouth. I only mean that for Ork player getting a fancy new rule is a huge buzz. Giving half that rule way to everyone else feels like a bit of a buzz kill. But what ever happens happens.
Personally I do not think a 6 should always hit. But I guess it's the age of streamline rules. The reason I don't think a 6 should always hit is because I see it as a crutch over taking units that cost more in points or cash that have stats that will hit on a 6 when subject to a -2 to hit.
I'm probably in the minority with that opinion. Which is fine.
One - Time/effort/money. Each model would have to be changed and new bases bought etc and the work to redo them all, I need to be working on unpainted minis...
Two - number of models, I didn’t change my marines as it would have taken too long, and that was 60-70 models.
My Orks are triple that..
Three - Army cases. They were bought and planned with old slots for them (custom battlefoam, so it’s exact sized bits).
That’s why my Necrons stayed on old bases, and I’m only just building them up now, but they wouldn’t fit in otherwise - maybe the Praet/Lychguard models I will, and characters. Same with Orks, but not the slots wouldn’t fit them for..
Davespil wrote: The amount of people whining over the Orks always being able to hit on 6's is staggering!
The amount of people who don't care to read, and more importantly understand, is staggering. You see, NO ONE is complaining that Orks hit on 6s. NO ONE.
A couple people made some comments on how it'd be nice for the game if every faction could hit on 6s as a core rule. Then... it all began.
Ork players started showing their true colors, claiming that they, and only they, are deserving of this most grandiose rule. Never mind that other factions have had similar problems, though to a lesser extent. Apparently, they just don't care and they label any who would bring to light similarly maligned units as a cry baby. They only care about themselves and their faction and it is THAT attitude that irks me.
Pure hypocrisy.
I'm leaving before I burst a blood vessel from the contradictions and entitlement. Any sympathy I had for Ork players just evaporated because of this thread.
There is no point to making a rule for all armies to hit on 6's. Given most armies are majority BS4+ or BS3+. If they face -2 to hit they are already hitting on a 6+ or a 5+. The rule would have no point.
-3 to hit is very rare and i can only think of 1 army that can do it with a strat (eldar) there may be more, but none that i know of. If you made it so every one hits on 6's , that would make having a -3 to hit pointless.
Orks get this rule because they are majority BS5+ , so a -2 to them made it so they can shoot at all. A -2 to AM or Tau (mostl BS4+) still lets them hit on a 6.
This makes orks unique in a way from other armies. Not all armies need all the same rules. Especially if its pointsless. Like lwhats the point of custodes always hitting on 6's ? They are BS2+.
There isnt enough -3 to hit in the game to shut down a BS4+ army completely to justify letting everyone hit on 6's.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: There is no point to making a rule for all armies to hit on 6's. Given most armies are majority BS4+ or BS3+. If they face -2 to hit they are already hitting on a 6+ or a 5+. The rule would have no point.
-3 to hit is very rare and i can only think of 1 army that can do it with a strat (eldar) there may be more, but none that i know of. If you made it so every one hits on 6's , that would make having a -3 to hit pointless.
Orks get this rule because they are majority BS5+ , so a -2 to them made it so they can shoot at all. A -2 to AM or Tau (mostl BS4+) still lets them hit on a 6.
This makes orks unique in a way from other armies. Not all armies need all the same rules. Especially if its pointsless. Like lwhats the point of custodes always hitting on 6's ? They are BS2+.
There isnt enough -3 to hit in the game to shut down a BS4+ army completely to justify letting everyone hit on 6's.
My 2 teef.
Yup, pretty much sums it up.
GW are not stupid, I think their reasoning is probably more or less the same. I for one am happy that my Orks will now always hit on a 6, although I don't think it will have a huge impact on Ork shooting - hopefully there are also point reductions to shooting units and strategems to improve them. It would be great to be able to field my Lootas again, for example.
Orks need BS 4+ and one attack less. The always hits on 6 for ranged weapons rule is okay but not thrilling, if all the other factions are way better shots.
Strg Alt wrote: Orks need BS 4+ and one attack less. The always hits on 6 for ranged weapons rule is okay but not thrilling, if all the other factions are way better shots.
Orks in general? No, but it might be a good rule for shoota boyz
The maximum modifier to hit is I think -10. It is very situational and involves a lot of moving parts to work, and impacts one model. However it is something that only Orks can now not only ignore, but benefit from as it grants an additional shot.
-1 for Alaitoc
-1 Conceal power
-1 Drain power
-1 Lightning-Fast Reactions Stratagem
-1 Warp Spider Flickerjump/Flyer Hard to Hit/Shimmerplume/Shiftshroud/Cameleoline Cloaks/Banshee Exarch (Notice a pattern here?)
-1 Moving Heavy/Advancing Assault penalty
-1 wounded by Baharroth
-3 from night fighting at 36"
There should always be a chance to hit, a natural roll of a 6 should hit, just like a natural roll of a 1 should miss. Omitting this rule is poor game design, especially when it is handed out to one factions. That faction may need it the most, but that doesn't warrant it being exclusive to them.
How do you get wounded by Baharroth while being 12/ 36" away from him?
Conceal is also limited to infantry and bikes, while the stratagem is limited to infantry and units with fly, no hard to hit flyers.
Last, none of the three variants of night fighting made by GW provide more than -1 to hit.
And once again, no reasoning is given why you should be able to hit such a buffed unit with a unit that has been debuffed and moved by you. "Because orks have it too" is not a reason, neither is "this is poor game design" unless you provide reason why it is poor game design.
Even if all these come together: - Unless you have fly, you can't shoot anyways, because there is a Phoenix lord within 1" of your unit. - If you have FLY (or similar), fall back with your unit and just shoot Baharroth at -2, worst case -3 if you have nothing but heavy weapons. - Fall back and have another nearby unit shoot Baharroth at -1. - Have all your other units in the army shoot with no more than -2 (innate hard to hit+allaitoc) since all buffs and debuffs have been wasted one unit. All of them will be able to hit on sixes.
won't be rebasing anything, I do however have a stack of 32mm bases spare (I have two copies of BoP where the models are on steel bases), and a load of square based orcs looking for a new home to be rebased and combined with spare sluggas and other assorted 40k bits who likely will get 32mm bases.
They will just be the units that don't get the benefit of a KFF or a vehicle to ride in
@Jidmah, please re-read what I typed, seems you have missed the point, and/or not read what I typed.
It is poor game design, not just because it allows Orks to hit regardless of the number of modifiers, but because the core mechanics don't have enough + modifiers to hit. The central core rules are at fault, the 6 always hits should be a core rule, and not exclusive to one faction. A faction that I might add was re-designed in 3rd to poor at shooting, but good in combat, hence the stat change. 3rd edition didn't have any to hit modifiers, so it was fine. Now in 8th we do, and as a result the Ork stat line is at odds with the system, due to be designed with 3rd in mind.
If the rule isn't rolled out and GW insist on - modifiers to hit, they need to balance it out by having + modifiers to hit, which would mean that things that hit on a 2+ could roll a 1 and score a hit. Now, I am willing to bet that no one wants that, and rightly so. What I have shown is the opposite side of the spectrum of the current system to hit. If a 7+ is an auto miss, than there also needs to be a facility for an auto hit.
Using a D6 is poor design when you don't even let people hit on 7-9+ as in earlier editions. Imagine what could've been with a focus on smaller battles with 2D6 or a D10 as the base roll? Sigh.
PS: Still looking for a cheap classic buggy with no luck so far. I hope people will try to unload them once Speedfreekz hits.
stonehorse wrote: @Jidmah, please re-read what I typed, seems you have missed the point, and/or not read what I typed.
It is poor game design, no just because it allows Orks to hit regardless of the number of modifiers, but because the core mechanics not have enough + modifiers to hit. The central core rules are at fault, the 6 always hits should be a core rule, and not exclusive to one faction.
First of all, the game does not allow orks to hit regardless of the number of modifiers. The first modifier still cuts the shooting in HALF, while most of the game is just slightly annoyed by it.
What's wrong with not being able to shoot some unit on the battlefield? Most games have plenty of units that temporally cannot be shot, most notably stuff hidden out of LOS or characters.
A faction that I might add was re-designed in 3rd to poor at shooting, but good in combat, hence the stat change.
This is incorrect. Orks never were designed to be bad at shooting prior to 7th edition codex (and I don't think "game design" was part of that codex).
In 4th/5th orks could match space marines shooting 1:1, assuming they were in range. Orks simply shot three times as often for the same points. Orks were redesigned to have bad weapons, not to be bad at shooting.
They were supposed to be jacks of all trades, just like space marines. The trade-off for our additional attacks was lower range and less AP on our weapons.
If the rule isn't rolled out and GW insist on - modifiers to hit, they need to balance it out by having + modifiers to hit, which would mean that things that hit on a 2+ could roll a 1 and score a hit. Now, I am willing to bet hat no one wants that, and rightly so.
Why? Sorry if I sound like a two-year-old but this is not a matter of fact - there is no reason why some models should not be unable a few other models in very uncommon situation.
Tau sniper drones not hitting a buffed Ultramarine Stormraven is not problem of game design because that tau player will very likely at least have commander that still hits the thing on 4+ and a vast array of other units that still hit on sixes. Meanwhile, the sniper drone can just go shoot Tigurius in the face with no modifiers at all.
What I have shown is the opposite side of the spectrum of the current system to hit. If a 7+ is an auto miss, than there also needs to be a facility for an auto hit.
Like auto-hitting weapons?
Again, there is no reason given by you for it to be so. You just state that B logically follows A without explaining the logic in between.
This is why it is poor game design.
Sorry, but your argument is "this is poor game design because it is poor game design".
An army not being able to shoot another army is poor game design, because what's the point in playing that army then? This is why orks got this rule.
A unit not being able to shoot another unit is normal in 40k.
davou wrote: There is no place in the game that specifies which models sit on what bases;
Wrong, AoS just got PDF stating what should be based on which size bases. There is only a matter of time before 40K gets that too.
even if they 'change' what shipped with them, you dont have to rebase
Well, if you plan to skip tournaments and don't want your army to be matched play legal, sure. But, to me it still smells of modelling for advantage, though perhaps a bit less so than using old tiny metal models of big monsters with new Codex (as opposed to their original Index) rules in plain cheating mode.
You got new fancy Codex rules, then play them with models they were intended to be used (and balanced for) with. You want to use old bases/models? Fine, as long as you use Index, as they were meant to go with that. Simple.
Danny76 wrote: One - Time/effort/money. Each model would have to be changed and new bases bought etc and the work to redo them all, I need to be working on unpainted minis...
Yeah, because clipping the sides of a base and gluing it on top of bigger one or simply using the enlarging adapting rings is really time and money consuming, and totally not takes less than a hour and a few $ for even a big army (just wait for base bag sales on ebay). Hell, even if you were then PVA the rim and re-sand or re-flock it for uniformity it's still less than a day job...
Strg Alt wrote: Orks need BS 4+ and one attack less. The always hits on 6 for ranged weapons rule is okay but not thrilling, if all the other factions are way better shots.
Orks in general? No, but it might be a good rule for shoota boyz
Yes, in general. There are negative but no positive to hit modifiers. Factions with BS 5+ should not exist in that kind of environment. Just think of all the units which rely on heavy weapons in the Ork Codex: Some infantry units, vehicles, bikes, walkers and big walkers. All pay premium points for weapons which don´t function properly. This has to go away asap. Make Orks weaker in close combat so that Tyranids can shine again.
In a nutshell: Make Dakka Dakka great again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Binabik15 wrote: Using a D6 is poor design when you don't even let people hit on 7-9+ as in earlier editions. Imagine what could've been with a focus on smaller battles with 2D6 or a D10 as the base roll? Sigh.
PS: Still looking for a cheap classic buggy with no luck so far. I hope people will try to unload them once Speedfreekz hits.
Agreed.
I am lucky enough to be able to field three vintage wartrakks & buggies.
AndrewGPaul wrote: They had BS 3 ( hits on a 4+) in 2nd edition, but back then they were in units about the same size as everyone else.
Yes, but then Gorkamorka hit, which dulled the palette of the Orks, making them all grungey browns and generic Goffs.
Then the flanderisation set in. "Orks can't hit the broadside of barn" was morphed into "Orks are always bad shots all the time, even the ones primarily armed with guns!", and eventually became BS2 across the board. Of course, in a game without To Hit modifiers that worked fine, but as soon as 8th Ed started and modifiers came back, this becomes a new problem, hence "Always Hit on 6's". It's a solution to a problem they created themselves, based upon something in the fluff that really should never have been emphasised that much.
I mean, imagine if GW hadn't latched onto the "Orks are bad shots!" idea and instead latched onto that "Ork tech only works 'cause they think it does" piece of fluff, and now all Ork shooting only works if the unit takes an Ld check before firing, and if they fail they can't shoot that turn. Then there would be upgrades (and in 8th, aura abilities) to combat that ie. solutions to a problem they made themselves.
6's always hits is what Orks need, but they only need it because of the laughable twisting of a (once upon a time) simple concept of Orks not being as accurate as Marines.
davou wrote: There is no place in the game that specifies which models sit on what bases;
Wrong, AoS just got PDF stating what should be based on which size bases. There is only a matter of time before 40K gets that too.
even if they 'change' what shipped with them, you dont have to rebase
Well, if you plan to skip tournaments and don't want your army to be matched play legal, sure. But, to me it still smells of modelling for advantage, though perhaps a bit less so than using old tiny metal models of big monsters with new Codex (as opposed to their original Index) rules in plain cheating mode.
You got new fancy Codex rules, then play them with models they were intended to be used (and balanced for) with. You want to use old bases/models? Fine, as long as you use Index, as they were meant to go with that. Simple.
Danny76 wrote: One - Time/effort/money. Each model would have to be changed and new bases bought etc and the work to redo them all, I need to be working on unpainted minis...
Yeah, because clipping the sides of a base and gluing it on top of bigger one or simply using the enlarging adapting rings is really time and money consuming, and totally not takes less than a hour and a few $ for even a big army (just wait for base bag sales on ebay). Hell, even if you were then PVA the rim and re-sand or re-flock it for uniformity it's still less than a day job...
That AoS chart is not a rule it's a suggestion for Tournament Organizers.
I play at most 10 games of 40K a year, I am not going to rebase or spend any money on adapters . My army will still be valid for matched play. If my local T.O. has an issue with my 25MM bases then I will simply not attend. At most that's 2 local tournaments a year or 6 of my 10 games a year.
On your last parts about how it will only take an afternoon to "fix my bases". Hahaha, No. My bases aren't just a little bit of sand and paint. And I already said no to base adapters.
If GW wanted Orks on 23MM bases they should have thought about that when they released their plastics back in 1998. But that's just an opinion.
If they want Orks on larger bases they need to up the number of attacks on the stat line and lower the mob cap size.
I'm looking forward to the treads about moving Am infantry up to 32mm bases.
I am really not sure why Boys should be forced on to 32MM bases. If 30+ boys are simply deleted every turn by enemy shooting then where is the issue with leaving them on 25MM bases. Or is Close Combat suddenly King in 40K again. If so fear my random 2D6 charge rolls, which are clearly better than a fixed charge distance.
Yodhrin wrote: Using the models you bought and paid for on the bases they were supplied with to represent the unit you bought them to represent = cheating.
LOL, never change matched play dudes, never change.
The best part is the asumption that the change from 25mm to 32mm is being made for "balance" reasons and not for purely aesthetical ones. As if GW had in account the base of the model when they write rules
Now, I'll say, that I understand how going from 25mm to 32mm nerfs ork boyz. But lets not pretend the change was made, from GW, for anything related to the game.
How has this thread turned into pages and pages about rebasing models, in case they change the base size and the rule about which bases to use. It’s a real non issue. As it stands use anybase you want and be happy. The Dakka rule is a good fix for the misconception that ORKS cant shoot.
Davespil wrote: The amount of people whining over the Orks always being able to hit on 6's is staggering!
The amount of people who don't care to read, and more importantly understand, is staggering. You see, NO ONE is complaining that Orks hit on 6s. NO ONE.
A couple people made some comments on how it'd be nice for the game if every faction could hit on 6s as a core rule. Then... it all began.
Ork players started showing their true colors, claiming that they, and only they, are deserving of this most grandiose rule. Never mind that other factions have had similar problems, though to a lesser extent. Apparently, they just don't care and they label any who would bring to light similarly maligned units as a cry baby. They only care about themselves and their faction and it is THAT attitude that irks me.
Pure hypocrisy.
I'm leaving before I burst a blood vessel from the contradictions and entitlement. Any sympathy I had for Ork players just evaporated because of this thread.
Good day.
I don't play Orks and I say only they deserve this rule.
Want to counter Raven Guard, Ailtoc, Alpha Legion, and Stygies? Stop running pure gunline or use more Markerlights if you're Tau. I REALLY don't care someone's poor Infantry cannot hit something. Boohoo.
Is a new codex coming out? I haven't seen anything saying this. I know about the Ork game coming out, but I have read nothing about a codex. Can anyone provide a link saying a codex is coming out please.
Davor wrote: Is a new codex coming out? I haven't seen anything saying this. I know about the Ork game coming out, but I have read nothing about a codex. Can anyone provide a link saying a codex is coming out please.
Gw have confirmed it... The dakka dakka dakka rule is from it... The month? Orktober, really?!
Davor wrote: Is a new codex coming out? I haven't seen anything saying this. I know about the Ork game coming out, but I have read nothing about a codex. Can anyone provide a link saying a codex is coming out please.
Davor wrote: Is a new codex coming out? I haven't seen anything saying this. I know about the Ork game coming out, but I have read nothing about a codex. Can anyone provide a link saying a codex is coming out please.
Gw have confirmed it... The dakka dakka dakka rule is from it... The month? Orktober, really?!
I have been seeing the word Orktober just like Nidvember for so long and not being true I just thought this was for Speed Freaks.
Mr_Rose wrote:
Davor wrote: Is a new codex coming out? I haven't seen anything saying this. I know about the Ork game coming out, but I have read nothing about a codex. Can anyone provide a link saying a codex is coming out please.
Thank you. I missed it. Since this wasn't on Page one here and usually on Dakka page one has all the recaps that is why I didn't think an Ork codex was coming. That is why I asked.
Latro_ wrote: think the dakka dakka debate has filled enough pages guys? its the news and rumours thread the dakka dakka rule isn't really news or a rumour now.
It’s better than the umpteenth Rebasing Rage thread since 32mm bases first came out...
Latro_ wrote: think the dakka dakka debate has filled enough pages guys? its the news and rumours thread the dakka dakka rule isn't really news or a rumour now.
"It's been two days since they released this new army-wide rule for orks, stop discussing it now."
Orks aren't innately bad shots, they just simply don't care about working at being good shots. They just enjoy the chaos of putting lead and missiles downrange, regardless. Orks don't have firing ranges, they have enemies. Now, if some clans, like Deathskulls or Blood Axes were shown as more interested in accuracy, that's another (fluffy) matter.
Orks aren't innately bad shots, they just simply don't care about working at being good shots. They just enjoy the chaos of putting lead and missiles downrange, regardless. Orks don't have firing ranges, they have enemies. Now, if some clans, like Deathskulls or Blood Axes were shown as more interested in accuracy, that's another (fluffy) matter.
They've always just pointed at a general direction. That's why they were surprisingly effective at killing Flyers last edition.
Orks were my first great love in 40K all the way back in 2001. Since I've started and built at least 4 armies of them, most of which sit in storage.
I am feeling the itch to start another force looking at these now models. It's all gonna come down to whether or not we get new boyz kit. If they make one at the quality of modern orks... I'm gonna be a poor man real soon.
Sorry, but your argument is "this is poor game design because it is poor game design".
Yes, because that is the crunch of my argument. [/Sarcasm]
If we look at Kill Team we see that they (the design team) added that a natural 1 is a miss and a natural 6 is a hit, for all players, thus creating a level playing field. GW have a history of trying out new ideas in games to see what stick and then later incorporating them into their core mechanics.
This reminds me why I try to stay clear of these types of discussions on DakkaDakka. I'll leave with this, arguing here is not going to influence GW's game design team.
Dandelion wrote: I've learned to expect nothing from others when it comes to an honest discussion, at least online.
Honest discussion? I already told you my reasoning. I simply don't feel bad because only a Guard player would complain about it.
I play Orks too you walnut. Besides, this whole guard apologist angle stems from your misunderstanding of my mockery of your (and others) arguments. Which makes me believe you do not read to understand, only to refute with a quipy one liner and an ad hominem. Which is why an honest discussion is impossible.
Orks were my first great love in 40K all the way back in 2001. Since I've started and built at least 4 armies of them, most of which sit in storage.
I am feeling the itch to start another force looking at these now models. It's all gonna come down to whether or not we get new boyz kit. If they make one at the quality of modern orks... I'm gonna be a poor man real soon.
I also,, but at the same time,,, a happy man... started working up a huge cult of speed, a few years ago,, never got them finished,, did a couple of moves with the army, went to finish them,,,, and can't find any of their arms.........WTF??? So replacing will all new boyz,,,, happy face time...
Davor wrote: I have been seeing the word Orktober just like Nidvember for so long and not being true I just thought this was for Speed Freaks.
After that comes the Summer of Flyers.
AegisGrimm wrote: Now, if some clans, like Deathskulls or Blood Axes were shown as more interested in accuracy, that's another (fluffy) matter.
As said, all of that thinking went away when all the colour was drained from the Orks in 3rd Ed, and everything became BS2 because "All Orks are bad shots!". So even units that should be somewhat decent at shooting (Tankbusters and Lootas come to mind) are still terrible.
The amount of people who don't care to read, and more importantly understand, is staggering. You see, NO ONE is complaining that Orks hit on 6s. NO ONE.
A couple people made some comments on how it'd be nice for the game if every faction could hit on 6s as a core rule. Then... it all began.
Ork players started showing their true colors, claiming that they, and only they, are deserving of this most grandiose rule. Never mind that other factions have had similar problems, though to a lesser extent. Apparently, they just don't care and they label any who would bring to light similarly maligned units as a cry baby. They only care about themselves and their faction and it is THAT attitude that irks me.
Pure hypocrisy.
I'm leaving before I burst a blood vessel from the contradictions and entitlement. Any sympathy I had for Ork players just evaporated because of this thread.
Good day.
arnt ork true colors green, because green is best, and isnt green envy or some other thing
feel free to leave. now i try to keep form making this type of comment because i myself am not a fan of the "if you dont like it then dont participate" argument, but ill make an exception here.
to make the claim that you no longer care for other ork players because of a single thread? inst that just a little extreme?
you can ignore the many ork players in this thread with reasonable arguments, or you can cheery pick out the unreasonable ones...and that shows more about you then you realize. you were looking for the bad, when ive seen the good. your entitled to your opinon and we are entitled to ours, you just decided you opinion would paint the whole of ork players on this forum (heck, you make it sound like you no longer care for any ork player that doesn't happen to be you) . that is an extreme generalization. its fine to be extreme here, as its part of the anonymous internet, just dont be surprised to be lambasted by all the ork players you have lost all sympathy for.
But I only have one, because I cannot stand repeating models. He's pretty heavily converted too.
